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Monday Volume 588 17 November 2014 No. 61

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES ()

Monday 17 November 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT

MEMBERS OF THE CABINET

(FORMED BY THE RT HON.,MP,MAY 2010) PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. David Cameron, MP DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt Hon. Nick Clegg, MP FIRST SECRETARY OF STATE AND LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS—The Rt Hon. CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. George Osborne, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT—The Rt Hon. Theresa May, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS—The Rt Hon. Philip Hammond, MP LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR JUSTICE—The Rt Hon. Chris Grayling, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE—The Rt Hon. Michael Fallon, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR BUSINESS,INNOVATION AND SKILLS AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt Hon. Vince Cable, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WORK AND PENSIONS—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HEALTH—The Rt Hon. , MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT—The Rt Hon. Eric Pickles, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. Nicky Morgan, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—The Rt Hon. Justine Greening, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—The Rt Hon. Edward Davey, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT—The Rt Hon. Patrick McLoughlin, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. Alistair Carmichael, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND—The Rt Hon. Theresa Villiers, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WALES—The Rt Hon. Stephen Crabb, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR CULTURE,MEDIA AND SPORT—The Rt Hon. Sajid Javid, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENVIRONMENT,FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP CHIEF SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY—The Rt Hon. Danny Alexander, MP

DEPARTMENTS OF STATE AND MINISTERS Business, Innovation and Skills— SECRETARY OF STATE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt Hon. Vince Cable, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Greg Clark, MP (Minister for Universities, Science and Cities) § Nick Boles, MP (Minister for Skills and Equalities) § The Rt Hon. Matthew Hancock, MP (Minister for Business and Enterprise) § Edward Vaizey, MP (Minister for Culture and the Digital Economy) § Lord Livingston of Parkhead (Minister for Trade and Investment) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— George Freeman § Jo Swinson, MP § Baroness Neville-Rolfe, DBE, CMG Cabinet Office— MINISTER FOR THE CABINET OFFICE AND PAYMASTER GENERAL—The Rt Hon. Francis Maude, MP MINISTER FOR GOVERNMENT POLICY AND CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt Hon. Oliver Letwin, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. David Laws, MP § The Rt Hon. Greg Clark, MP § Joseph Johnson, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES— Sam Gyimah, MP § Rob Wilson, MP (Minister for Civil Society) MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO—The Rt Hon. Grant Shapps, MP Communities and Local Government— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Eric Pickles, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Brandon Lewis, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Stephen Williams, MP Kris Hopkins, MP Penny Mordaunt, MP Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon ii HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont.

Culture, Media and Sport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Sajid Javid, MP MINISTER FOR CULTURE AND THE DIGITAL ECONOMY—Edward Vaizey, MP § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Helen Grant, MP Defence— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Michael Fallon, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Mark Francois, MP (Minister for the Armed Forces) Anna Soubry, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Philip Dunne, MP Julian Brazier, MP Lord Astor of Hever, DL Education— SECRETARY OF STATE AND MINISTER FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—The Rt Hon. Nicky Morgan, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. David Laws, MP (Minister for Schools) § Nick Gibb, MP Nick Boles, MP (Minister for Skills and Equalities) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Edward Timpson, MP Sam Gyimah, MP § Lord Nash PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES—Jo Swinson, MP § Energy and Climate Change— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Edward Davey, MP MINISTER OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Matthew Hancock, MP § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Amber Rudd, MP Baroness Verma Environment, Food and Rural Affairs— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Elizabeth Truss, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— George Eustice, MP Dan Rogerson, MP Lord de Mauley, TD Foreign and Commonwealth Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Philip Hammond, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. David Lidington, MP (Minister for Europe) The Rt Hon. Hugo Swire, MP Lord Livingston of Parkhead § The Rt Hon. Baroness Anelay of St Johns, DBE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— James Duddridge, MP Tobias Ellwood, MP Health— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Jeremy Hunt, MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Norman Lamb, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Daniel Poulter, MP George Freeman § Jane Ellison, MP The Rt Hon. Earl Howe — SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Theresa May, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Lynne Featherstone, MP (Minister for Crime Prevention) James Brokenshire, MP (Minister for Security and Immigration) The Rt Hon. Mike Penning, MP (Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims) § PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Karen Bradley, MP Lord Bates HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont. iii

International Development— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Justine Greening, MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Desmond Swayne, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Baroness Northover Justice— LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Chris Grayling, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Simon Hughes, MP The Rt Hon. Mike Penning, MP (Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims) § Lord Faulks PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Shailesh Vara, MP Andrew Selous, MP § Law Officers— ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The Rt Hon. Jeremy Wright, QC, MP SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Robert Buckland, QC, MP ADVOCATE-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt Hon. Lord Wallace of Tankerness, QC § Leader of the House of Commons— FIRST SECRETARY OF STATE AND LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS—The Rt Hon. William Hague, MP DEPUTY LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS—The Rt Hon. Tom Brake, MP Northern Ireland— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Theresa Villiers, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Andrew Murrison, MP Privy Council Office— DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt Hon. Nick Clegg, MP Scotland Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Alistair Carmichael, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. David Mundell, MP Transport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Patrick McLoughlin, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— Baroness Kramer The Rt Hon. John Hayes, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Robert Goodwill, MP Claire Perry, MP Treasury— PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt Hon. David Cameron, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt Hon. George Osborne, MP CHIEF SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. Danny Alexander, MP FINANCIAL SECRETARY—David Gauke, MP EXCHEQUER SECRETARY—Priti Patel, MP ECONOMIC SECRETARY—Andrea Leadsom, MP COMMERCIAL SECRETARY—Lord Deighton, KBE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY—The Rt Hon. Michael Gove, MP LORDS COMMISSIONERS— Mark Lancaster, MP David Evennett, MP John Penrose, MP Gavin Barwell, MP Harriett Baldwin, MP Alun Cairns, MP § ASSISTANT WHIPS— Andrew Selous, MP § Thérèse Coffey, MP Mel Stride, MP Ben Wallace, MP Damian Hinds, MP The Rt Hon. Tom Brake, MP Lorely Burt, MP iv HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT—cont.

Wales Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Stephen Crabb, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE Alun Cairns, MP § Baroness Randerson Work and Pensions— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt Hon. Iain Duncan Smith, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt Hon. Esther McVey, MP (Minister for Employment) The Rt Hon. , MP (Minister for Pensions) Mark Harper, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Lord Freud Office of the Leader of the — LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—The Rt. Hon. Baroness Stowell of Beeston, MBE DEPUTY LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS—The Rt. Hon. Lord Wallace of Tankerness § Her Majesty’s Household— LORD CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt Hon. Earl Peel, GCVO, DL LORD STEWARD—The Earl of Dalhousie MASTER OF THE HORSE—Lord Vestey, KCVO TREASURER—The Rt Hon. Greg Hands, MP COMPTROLLER—The Rt Hon. Don Foster, MP VICE-CHAMBERLAIN—Anne Milton, MP CAPTAIN OF CORPS OF GENTLEMEN-AT-ARMS—Lord Taylor of Holbeach, CBE CAPTAIN OF THE QUEEN’S BODYGUARD OF THE YEOMEN OF THE GUARD—The Rt Hon. Lord Newby, OBE BARONESSES IN WAITING—Baroness Jolly, Baroness Williams of Trafford, Baroness Garden of Frognal LORDS IN WAITING—Lord Gardiner of Kimble, The Rt Hon. Lord Wallace of Saltaire, Lord Popat, Lord Ashton of Hyde, Lord Bourne § Members of the Government listed under more than one Department

SECOND CHURCH ESTATES COMMISSIONER, REPRESENTING CHURCH COMMISSIONERS—The Rt Hon. Sir Tony Baldry, MP HOUSE OF COMMONS THE SPEAKER—The Rt Hon. John Bercow, MP CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—The Rt Hon. Lindsay Hoyle, MP FIRST DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—Mrs Eleanor Laing, MP SECOND DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS—The Rt Hon. Dawn Primarolo, MP PANEL OF CHAIRS Mr David Amess, MP, Hugh Bayley, MP, Mr Joe Benton, MP, Mr Clive Betts, MP, Mr Peter Bone, MP, Mr Graham Brady, MP, The Rt Hon.Annette Brooke, MP, Martin Caton, MP, Mr Christopher Chope, MP, Katy Clark, MP, Mr David Crausby, MP, Philip Davies, MP, Nadine Dorries, MP, Sir Roger Gale, MP, Mr James Gray, MP, Mr Dai Havard, MP, Mr Philip Hollobone, MP, Mr Jim Hood, MP, The Rt Hon. George Howarth, MP, Sir Edward Leigh, MP, Dr William McCrea, MP, Miss Anne McIntosh, MP, Mrs Anne Main, MP, Sir Alan Meale, MP, Sandra Osborne, MP, Albert Owen, MP, Mark Pritchard, MP, Mrs Linda Riordan, MP, John Robertson, MP, , MP, Mr Adrian Sanders, MP, Jim Sheridan, MP, Mr Gary Streeter, MP, Mr Andrew Turner, MP, Mr Charles Walker, MP, Mr Mike Weir, MP, Hywel Williams, MP SECRETARY—Matthew Hamlyn HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION The Rt Hon. The Speaker (Chairman), Sir Paul Beresford, MP, Mr Frank Doran, MP, Ms Angela Eagle, MP, The Rt Hon. William Hague, MP, The Rt Hon. John Thurso, MP SECRETARY OF THE COMMISSION—Robert Twigger ASSISTANT SECRETARY—Sarah Heath ADMINISTRATION ESTIMATE AUDIT COMMITTEE Dame Janet Gaymer, DBE (Chair), Ms Angela Eagle, MP, The Rt Hon. Sir Alan Haselhurst, MP, The Rt Hon. John Thurso, MP, Stephen Brooker, Barbara Scott SECRETARY OF THE AUDIT COMMITTEE—Ben Williams LIAISON COMMITTEE The Rt Hon. Sir Alan Beith, MP (Chair), Mr Graham Allen, MP, Mr Adrian Bailey, MP, The Rt Hon. Kevin Barron, MP, Dame Anne Begg, MP, Mr Clive Betts, MP, The Rt Hon. Sir Malcolm Bruce, MP, Sir William Cash, MP, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, MP, Mr Ian Davidson, MP, DavidTCDavies, MP, Mrs Louise Ellman, MP, Natascha Engel, MP, Dr Hywel Francis, MP, The Rt Hon. Sir Alan Haselhurst, MP, The Rt Hon. Margaret Hodge, MP, Mr Bernard Jenkin, MP, Miss Anne McIntosh, MP, Andrew Miller, MP, Mr George Mudie, MP, Sir Richard Ottaway, MP, Mr Laurence Robertson, MP, Mr Lee Scott, MP, Rory Stewart, MP, Mr Graham Stuart, MP, The Rt Hon. John Thurso, MP, Mr Andrew Tyrie, MP, The Rt Hon. Keith Vaz, MP, Mr Charles Walker, MP, Joan Walley, MP, Mr John Whittingdale, MP, Dr Sarah Wollaston, MP, Mr Tim Yeo, MP CLERKS—Andrew Kennon, Philippa Helme MANAGEMENT BOARD David Natzler (Acting Clerk of the House), Jacqy Sharpe (Acting Clerk Assistant and Acting Director General, Chamber and Committee Services), Andrew Walker (Director General, HR and Change), John Borley, CB (Director General, Facilities), Myfanwy Barrett (Director of Finance), John Benger (Acting Head of the Department of Information Services), Matthew Taylor (Acting Head of Parliamentary ICT), Dame Janet Gaymer, DBE (External Member), Barbara Scott (External Member) SECRETARY OF THE MANAGEMENT BOARD—Tom Goldsmith SPEAKER’S SECRETARY—Peter Barratt SPEAKER’S COUNSEL—Michael Carpenter, CB SPEAKER’S CHAPLAIN—Rev. Rose Hudson-Wilkin PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS—Kathryn Hudson PARLIAMENTARY SECURITY DIRECTOR—Paul Martin, CBE

17 November 2014

THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES OFFICIAL REPORT

IN THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE FIFTY-FIFTH PARLIAMENT OF THE OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND [WHICH OPENED 18 MAY 2010]

SIXTY-THIRD YEAR OF THE REIGN OF HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

SIXTH SERIES VOLUME 588 SEVENTH VOLUME OF SESSION 2014-2015

Mrs May: I absolutely agree that dealing with this House of Commons crime is about more than action by Government. That is why I am pleased that we have introduced into the Monday 17 November 2014 Modern Slavery Bill a clause that requires larger businesses to show what they are doing to ensure that slavery is not taking place in their supply chains. We must all work The House met at half-past Two o’clock together on this issue. I am pleased that we have been able to introduce that amendment, and I am sure that it will be supported throughout this House. PRAYERS Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The national referral [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] mechanism, which is one of the ways of identifying victims, is flawed—as, indeed, the Home Secretary’s recent report implies. What is she going to do to make sure that victims, whatever their immigration status, are Oral Answers to Questions identified and effectively protected?

Mrs May: The hon. Lady is right. Concerns about the national referral mechanism have been raised for HOME DEPARTMENT some time. That is why the Government had a review of the NRM undertaken. That review has now been published, and we will set out our response to it in the modern The Secretary of State was asked— slavery strategy that will, as I said, soon be published by Modern Slavery the Government. We recognise the issues that have been raised in the review of the NRM, and I am pleased that 1. Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): What it has taken place. We will of course put support for steps she is taking to end modern slavery. [906018] victims at the heart of what we are doing.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Mrs Theresa May): This Government are determined (Con): Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating to stamp out the abhorrent crime of modern slavery. Kevin Hyland on his appointment as anti-slavery The Modern Slavery Bill will give law enforcement commissioner designate and expand a little on how his agencies the tools to tackle modern slavery, and enhance role will help to stamp out this dreadful crime? support and protection for victims. We will shortly publish our modern slavery strategy setting out wider Mrs May: I am pleased to join my hon. Friend in work to tackle these terrible crimes. I was pleased to congratulating Kevin Hyland on his appointment. Many announce on Thursday the appointment of Kevin Hyland people in this House who have been involved in looking as designate independent anti-slavery commissioner. at the issues around human trafficking and modern slavery will know of the very good work that he did as a Pauline Latham: Does my right hon. Friend share my detective chief inspector in the Metropolitan police, belief that Government alone cannot end modern slavery particularly on human trafficking matters. As the anti- and we also need businesses to take a lead and play their slavery commissioner, he will be able to ensure that the part in this? What steps has she taken to achieve that? agencies, particularly law enforcement agencies, are doing 3 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 4 what they need to be able to do tackle this crime. As Stephen Mosley: This Friday the Cheshire police right hon. and hon. Members may have seen, he has commissioner John Dwyer and I will hold a meeting already said publicly that one of his concerns about with members of the Chester Asian community who are identifying this crime is ensuring that when victims of concerned about a recent spate of burglaries aimed at trafficking and slavery come forward, the police are able Asian families by people looking for gold and jewellery. to recognise that they have been victims. What advice would my right hon. Friend give to people who are concerned about this spate of crime? Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): As the Government have been so open in getting outside views, as well as Mrs May: I congratulate my hon. Friend on arranging views from this place, in building up their Bill, might that meeting to look at a particular problem that affects not the Home Secretary adopt the same strategy with the Asian community. There are, of course, other the implementation of the Bill that she has promised us communities that are also particularly affected by gold in December? Would it not be possible to make that a theft. I am pleased to tell my hon. Friend that the crime Green Paper and for her then to come forward with her prevention panel, which we have set up at the Home final proposals when, I hope, she secures Royal Assent Office and which is looking at further ways to prevent in February next year? crime from happening, is looking at that very issue. It is looking in particular at issues relating to the safe storage Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman has given of gold and other similar valuable items in homes and considerable time and effort to this issue. We are grateful external locations, and it hopes to be able to report on for the work that he has done with the Government in the matter in the new year. challenging us on the Bill and on the measures we are undertaking. The strategy has been developed with Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Online outside input; the Government have not just developed child abuse is a horrendous and growing problem. Does it themselves. I am sure that when the strategy is published, the Home Secretary agree that those guilty of online and as it is implemented, he will be very willing to come child abuse should be barred from working with children? forward and provide views to the Government on it.

Crime Levels Mrs May: I absolutely agree that all child abuse is a particularly abhorrent crime and, obviously, that which takes place online is no less abhorrent than that which 2. David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): What takes place offline. That is why the Government have assessment she has made of recent trends in the level of put a particular emphasis on dealing with online child crime. [906019] abuse. A number of steps have been taken by the Government, led by the Prime Minister. I am pleased to 7. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What say that next month the Prime Minister will also lead an assessment she has made of recent trends in the level of international conference on online child sexual exploitation, crime. [906024] endeavouring to further increase our ability to deal with these issues. The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May): Police reform is working. Crime is down by more than a fifth under this Government, Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Given the importance according to the independent crime survey for England of the European arrest warrant in bringing people to and Wales. England and Wales are safer than they have justice and reducing crime, will the Home Secretary been for decades, with the survey showing crime at its explain to the House why today’s motion in the House lowest levels since the survey began in 1981. of Lords gives peers a chance to vote on and specifically endorse the European arrest warrant, when last week, David Rutley: I would like to acknowledge the important as you will recall, Mr Speaker, MPs were denied such an role and hard work of the Cheshire constabulary in opportunity? reducing crime in Cheshire by 17% since 2010. I also acknowledge the important role of the reforms in policing Mrs May: I was very clear about that. In fact, we that this Government have taken through, with a more spent a considerable amount of time last Monday discussing targeted approach to measures, stronger accountability, the Government’s motion. We were very clear that that and a greater emphasis on innovation. What further motion would be binding on the Government in relation steps are this Government taking to improve the to the package of 35 measures. The regulations are now effectiveness of policing in the fight against crime? being discussed by the House of Lords. Sadly, of course, this House did not have a full opportunity to debate Mrs May: I am very happy to join my hon. Friend in those matters last week, because the shadow Home congratulating the officers and staff of the Cheshire Secretary, the right hon. Member for Normanton, constabulary on the very good work they have done in Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), chose to helping to ensure that crime in that county has fallen by move a closure motion to stop debate. the percentage that he mentioned. We continue to work on driving out crime and on helping the police to be Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Will the able to deal with crime. The College of Policing is Home Secretary join me in congratulating the further professionalising the police. The police innovation Northamptonshire police, including not only Chief fund is genuinely looking for ways in which police Constable Adrian Lee and Deputy Chief Constable forces can be provided with funding for innovative ideas Martin Jelley, but particularly officers of all ranks, on to find new ways of dealing with crime and ensuring the fact that the crime rate in Northamptonshire is that we are able to drive crime down even further. down 21% since June 2010? 5 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 6

Mrs May: I am very happy to join my hon. Friend in seen significant increases from a number of countries, congratulating not just the chief constable and his including China, Brazil and Malaysia. The UK very deputy, but officers of all ranks in the Northamptonshire much remains open to business for students. constabulary on the work they have been doing to bring down crime to the extent of 21% over the past four and Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): The Minister a half years. That is excellent news for members of the spoke at the Home Affairs Committee seminar on public. Once again, I congratulate the officers on the international students, but at the sessions in which he hard work they have done that has led to that fall in did not speak, there was heavy criticism of his policies. crime. Indeed, the director general of the Institute of Directors, Simon Walker, said: Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): The “When some politician in the House of Commons thinks it Home Secretary will be aware that the National Crime would be wonderful to say something [detrimental] about international Agency has the details of between 20,000 and 30,000 students, or some clever minister thinks of sending out a van to people who have accessed child abuse images online. hound immigrants, they don’t think what it would look like in There have been 600 arrests. What action is the Home international papers.” Secretary taking to ensure that the many other thousands Will the Minister listen to the voices of the Institute of of perpetrators of this vile crime are brought to justice? Directors, universities and the business sector, and look again at such policies? Mrs May: I am pleased to say that the National Crime Agency has enhanced the ability of police in this James Brokenshire: The hon. Gentleman will no doubt country to deal with these particularly abhorrent crimes. have heard from reports of that particular session in the By bringing the Child Exploitation and Online Protection conference hosted by the Home Affairs Committee that Centre under the NCA, it is now able to have access to I made it very clear that we approach this issue in a the tasking powers of all police forces and to the measured fashion. The number of visa applications for national cyber crime unit and other functions within our universities has gone up 5% this year, with an the NCA. The NCA is very clear that it is looking at all 8% increase for Russell Group universities. I very clearly the evidence brought before it. I am pleased that it has say to the sector that trying to talk down the offer we already made the number of arrests that the hon. have is not in the best interests of the sector or of our Gentleman has referred to and, as I have said, it will country. I certainly look forward to continuing to work look at the evidence brought before it and take action with the sector to ensure that we attract students to our appropriately. world-class institutions. Student Immigration Police Morale 4. Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): What 3. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) steps she is taking to reduce sickness and stress leave (Lab/Co-op): When she next plans to meet the and raise morale in the police service. [906021] Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to discuss student immigration. [906020] The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Mike Penning): The Home Office does not hold figures The Minister for Security and Immigration (James centrally on the number of police who go on sick leave Brokenshire): My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary with stress. We have a world-class police force, and the meets colleagues regularly for discussions on a range of best way to get up police force morale is to support our issues, including on how we can continue to attract the police, and to say that they do a fantastic job and that brightest and the best to the UK while bearing down on we have the best police force in the world. abuse. Mrs Glindon: In a recent survey on officers’ morale, Mark Lazarowicz: The Government’s arbitrary the Police Federation found that nearly 5,000 officers immigration target has clearly been shown to be both are planning to leave the service within the next five unworkable and misguided. A particularly misguided years because of pay cuts and cuts in conditions. Another aspect is the decision to include international students survey by Unison says that 75% of police staff feel in the target. There is now consensus—from the Labour increasingly stressed. Will the Minister heed the unions’ party, political parties across the House and even call to review the gap between rising demand for services Government Members, as well as from universities, and cutbacks to the workforce? trade unions and business—that the target should not include international students. Will the Home Secretary Mike Penning: As a trade unionist, I always listen to and the Minister join that consensus? trade unions, but they are not always right. We will make sure that we listen very carefully. I have seen the James Brokenshire: The short answer to the hon. figures for the slight increase in stress-related illness. We Gentleman’s question is no, we will not, because students have committed £8 million to blue light services to try continue to use public services. If we look at the Office to help with stress and well-being. The best way to for National Statistics data for the 12 months to September ensure that morale goes up in our police forces is for 2013, we see that 50,000 non-EU students left, whereas everybody in this House to support them and say what 124,000 entered the country, which suggests that students a fantastic job they do. have an impact on net migration. I say to the hon. Gentleman and the sector generally Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): Does the Minister agree that there is no cap on the number of legitimate students that one of the key contributors to morale in any job is who can come to study within the UK. Indeed, we have the satisfaction of doing a good job? On that basis, will 7 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 8 he join me in praising Warwickshire police? Over the in the Immigration Act 2014 that I underlined, we have past year, there have been 1,185 fewer victims of crime changed the law to ensure that we speed up those than in the previous year. deportations.

Mike Penning: I do congratulate Warwickshire police Andrew Bridgen: My constituents are rightly concerned on the 15% cut in crime since 2010. They are doing a about the £800 million annual cost to the taxpayer of fantastic job, and I hope to visit them soon. housing more than 12,000 foreign offenders in UK jails. Will my hon. Friend outline what steps can be taken to Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): The reduce that cost, while still ensuring that justice is Home Affairs Committee found that morale had sunk served? to its lowest ebb in recent memory. Surveys have demonstrated that 5,000 police officers want to leave James Brokenshire: I can certainly underline the steps the police service because of low morale. Figures have that we are taking to speed up the process. Moving shown a staggering 63% increase in duty days lost to offenders straight from prison to deportation is saving sickness owing to anxiety, while the sickness figures the taxpayer £27.5 million, and Operation Nexus ensures more generally are soaring. Does the Home Secretary that police officers work alongside immigration enforcement accept that, with her demanding ever more out of a officers to ensure that the information needed to aid police service that she has cut by 16,000, she is making deportation later in the process is provided. We are police officers sick? taking an end-to-end approach.

Mike Penning: I get on very well with the shadow Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): Minister, but what he has just said is appalling. He is Recently, the Australian Government decided to deport running down the police force and the fantastic job they an individual following serious concerns about the impact are doing. With less officers on the front line and less of his views on the safety of women. To prevent us from officers in the back-room staff, they are doing a fantastic having to deport individuals as the Australians did, and job. He should be ashamed of himself, and he should given that his seminars promote choking and sexual praise the police. assaults in order to seduce women, will the Home Secretary consider using her powers to exclude Julien Deportations Blanc from the UK if, like me, she assesses that his presence is not conducive to the public good? 5. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): What recent steps she has taken to speed up the process of James Brokenshire: The Government firmly underline deportation. [906022] their commitment to promoting the role of women within government, business and the whole country, 13. Andrew Bridgen (North West ) (Con): and they condemn any action that might stand against What recent steps she has taken to speed up the process that. The hon. Lady has alluded to a case highlighted in of deportation. [906031] the press. I cannot comment on the specifics of that particular case, but I can assure her about the steps this The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Government are taking, and about the record of this Brokenshire): Changes to the appeals and removals Home Secretary in excluding more people on grounds system introduced under the Immigration Act 2014 of unacceptable behaviour than any of her predecessors. have reduced the number of immigration decisions that can be appealed from 17 to four. New appeal provisions Vehicle Scanning Machines now allow us to deport harmful individuals before their appeals are heard if there is no risk of serious, irreversible harm. We have also introduced new powers to stop 6. Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): foreign criminals using family life arguments to delay How many vehicle scanning machines to identify their deportation. stowaways at UK ports of entry the Government plan to buy in the next 12 months. [906023] Richard Graham: I am encouraged by what the Minister has said, and I appreciate all that he and the Home The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Office are doing to deport criminals—including EU Brokenshire): Border Force operates an array of search nationals—who are guilty of serious crimes. He will techniques as part of its multi-layered search regime, know of the case of Mr Peter Pavlisin, a Slovakian including detection dogs, carbon dioxide monitors, heartbeat national who brutally attacked his pregnant Gloucester detectors and scanners. In the past 12 months nearly girlfriend in January 2013 and was sentenced. Will he £10 million has been invested to support and increase update me on when a decision on Mr Pavlisin’s deportation those methods of detection and bolster port security in will be made? the UK and at juxtaposed controls. The Government have also committed to invest £12 million at the port of James Brokenshire: I cannot comment on the specifics Calais further to enhance security. of my hon. Friend’s case, but I can underline the Government’s commitment to removing foreign national Stephen Barclay: May I draw the Minister’s attention offenders from this country—just under 5,100 were to the fact that written parliamentary question 213850 removed last year. There is a cross-Government approach on the number of lorries screened by body scanning to ensure that we do all we can to redocument and machines and sniffer dogs when they enter the UK has remove foreign national offenders and, with the changes not been answered? The Government have confirmed 9 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 10 that currently just five vehicle scanning machines cover My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary leads the all our ports, including 51 points of entry. Will the cross-government response to this issue and we are Minister clarify why five is an adequate number? working hard to make sure we give victims the support they need and deserve. James Brokenshire: Border Force uses an array of different techniques to secure our border which, as I Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): As my right hon. have highlighted, include body detection dogs, carbon Friend the Home Secretary mentioned earlier, the Prime dioxide detectors, heartbeat monitors and scanners, as Minister will lead an international conference on reducing well as physical searches. I will look into the outstanding and eradicating online child abuse. Will the Minister parliamentary question highlighted by my hon. Friend. update the House on the measures that the Government Last year 18,000 people were detected at our juxtaposed are taking so that perpetrators of this appalling crime controls—a 60% increase. That underlines the focus of are brought to justice no matter where they live in the our Border Force officers on preventing people who world? should not be here from coming to this country. Karen Bradley: My right hon. Friend is right to Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Minister is highlight the global response being led by the Government right: those pieces of equipment are useful, but they are and the Prime Minister to make sure that we are doing not 100% effective. As of today, 2,300 illegal migrants everything we can to work globally with international are in Calais, seeking to come to the United Kingdom. partners and the private sector. We are taking steps, According to the mayor of Calais, in her evidence to particularly in the Serious Crime Bill, to ensure that we Parliament on 28 October, some will risk their lives to are doing all we can to give the support and protection do so. Does the Minister agree that we need to do much that is needed through law enforcement. more work with the countries at the point of entry—Greece, Turkey and Italy—to prevent people from going there, Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): What rather than waiting until they get to Calais when it representations has the Home Secretary received from could be far too late? the Mayor of London or the Metropolitan police about the implications of ongoing investigations into organised James Brokenshire: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman child sexual abuse to ensure that he can adequately in that we need to look beyond the borders of the EU. resource these exceptional police operations? That is precisely the emphasis that has been given by several countries, including the UK and France. Indeed, Karen Bradley: The national policing lead on this Italy is hosting a conference in a few weeks to do matter is involved in making sure that the resources are precisely that in relation to the horn of Africa. He is available. Funding is also available to police forces from right to make that point, but equally the Government the Home Office to give specific support if additional are focused on security at Calais, and that is why my resources are required to tackle child abuse. right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has agreed with the French Government an investment of £12 million in Drug Misuse security at that port. 9. Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): What Online Child Abuse her policy is on the continued prohibition of recreational drugs. [906026] 8. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): What recent progress the National Crime Agency has made in 12. Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): If she tackling online child abuse. [906025] will undertake an assessment of the effects of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. [906030] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Karen Bradley): In its first full year, The Minister for Crime Prevention (Lynne Featherstone): National Crime Agency activity has safeguarded or The Government’s drugs strategy sets out a balanced protected more than 1,000 children. As part of its approach to tackling drug misuse, including controls response, the NCA is leading an unprecedented UK-wide under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. There are positive operation called Notarise, which is identifying and taking signs that our approach is working, such as a long-term action against individuals who view indecent images of downward trend in drug use, and people going into children. To date, Operation Notarise alone has led to treatment are more likely to free themselves from more than 700 arrests. dependency than ever before. An assessment of the drugs strategy is under way. Bill Esterson: The head of the National Crime Agency made the link between online and physical child abuse. I Mr Laurence Robertson: I am grateful to the Minister am sure the Minister will agree that it is vital that we for that response and I certainly encourage her in that protect the most vulnerable children as part of stopping work, but does she agree that any attempt to decriminalise child abuse. What are the Government doing about the drugs would send completely the wrong message from Education Committee’s findings in its inquiry into this place to young people? residential care, which found children’s homes in the same places as many abusers and potential abusers? Lynne Featherstone: The coalition Government have no current intention to decriminalise drugs. Drugs are Karen Bradley: What is illegal offline is illegal online. illegal where scientific and medical analysis has shown It does not matter how the abuse takes place, it is still they are harmful to human health. We recognise that illegal activity and victims need our support and protection. drugs are a complex and evolving issue, so we continue 11 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 12 to develop our strategy and look at other evidence-based Sarah Teather (Brent Central) (LD): In the past few approaches to help us to respond to emerging threats months there has been increasing evidence that the countries and challenges. surrounding Syria have begun to close their borders to reduce the number of refugees they allow through, leaving Greg Mulholland: I am delighted to see my hon. many in a desperate situation. I join the hon. Member for Friend join the ministerial team. She is aware of the Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) in urging the Government unanimous vote a few weeks ago for an impact assessment to step up to the plate at the pledging conference because and cost-benefit analysis on this matter, but does she we have no ability to put diplomatic pressure on other agree that to be tough on drugs we need to focus more countries if we are doing so pitifully ourselves. police time on chasing drug dealers? James Brokenshire: The contribution of the UK stands Lynne Featherstone: I could not agree more. Our up to scrutiny and our overall contribution bears focus absolutely has to be on those who deal, smuggle comparison with any international country. We are and do the most harm. That is where police time needs providing £700 million in aid, which is assisting hundreds to be spent. of thousands of people each month. The vulnerable persons relocation scheme deals with the most vulnerable Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): I was pleased individuals, and I underline the fact that we have granted with the Minister’s confirmation, in a response to a asylum to 3,000 people from Syria since the start of the recent parliamentary question, that the Government conflict. have accepted a recommendation to develop proposals 23. [906042] Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) for a blanket ban on the sale of new psychoactive (Lab/Co-op): I welcome what the Minister says on substances—so-called legal highs. What work will now Syrian refugees coming in this direction, but will he take place to ensure that that is a reality? comment on British citizens travelling in the opposite direction? He may be aware of a story in today’s Daily Lynne Featherstone: As the hon. Gentleman says, we Mail regarding allegations that British citizens have accepted the panel’s recommendation to develop proposals been involved in barbaric and brutal beheadings in for a blanket ban. We have already initiated statutory Syria and Iraq. Will he assure me that those claims will consultation on the proposals with the Advisory Council be investigated very urgently, including claims that an on the Misuse of Drugs and we will consider its advice individual from Cardiff was involved? Will he join me carefully. Work has begun and is moving swiftly. We will in welcoming the absolute condemnation of those acts develop proposals for a blanket ban and set out further by the Muslim community across Cardiff? detail in due course. James Brokenshire: I am sure that the whole House Syrian Refugees would join the hon. Gentleman and me in utterly condemning those responsible for the brutal murder of 10. Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): How Peter Kassig and the appalling images we saw over the many Syrian refugees have been resettled in the UK weekend. The Government remain resolute in confronting under the Government’s vulnerable persons relocation terrorism in all its forms and pursuing those responsible scheme. [906027] for heinous terrorist acts, and I endorse his comments about British Muslim communities across the country The Minister for Security and Immigration (James standing up against this brutality and heinous evil. We Brokenshire): We remain on track to relocate several stand together in condemning these actions and taking hundred people under the vulnerable persons relocation whatever action is appropriate. scheme in the next three years. Between the first group of arrivals on 25 March and the end of June, 50 people Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): The UNHCR were relocated to the UK under the scheme. Numbers report published in July called for participating states to are released as part of the publication each quarter of plan for the resettlement of more vulnerable refugees the Home Office official statistics, and the increased from Syria in 2015 and 2016. Given that this tragic number of arrivals under the scheme up to the end of conflict shows little sign of abating, will my hon. Friend September will be published on 27 November. indicate what responsibilities we have regarding such forward planning? Heidi Alexander: On 9 December, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees is staging a Syrian James Brokenshire: As my hon. Friend will know, we resettlement conference in Geneva. Given the unprecedented have stated clearly that we intend to accept several magnitude of the Syrian refugee crisis, will the Minister hundred people under the vulnerable persons relocation ensure that the UK Government are represented at that scheme over the next three years, and we are doing conference? Will he also take the opportunity to commit exactly that and will be following through on it, but to expanding the vulnerable persons relocation scheme? clearly we remain focused on getting a solution in-region, given the significant numbers affected, which is why our aid programme—the £700 million and the assistance it James Brokenshire: We certainly recognise the is directly providing—matters so much. contribution and role played by the UNHCR. Indeed, the vulnerable persons relocation scheme has been Female Genital Mutilation developed alongside UNHCR and the specific cases we accept depend on referral by it. I underline to the hon. 11. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): Lady the contribution the UK has made to the region: What steps the Government are taking to identify and £700 million in aid, the vulnerable persons relocation safeguard girls at risk of female genital mutilation. scheme and the asylum claims we are accepting here. [906029] 13 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 14

The Minister for Crime Prevention (Lynne Featherstone): Immigration Act 2014 and other changes to speed up Female genital mutilation is an extremely harmful practice the deportation process. This Government are focused that we are committed to tackling. On 22 July, the on this issue, unlike the previous one, who failed so Prime Minister hosted the UK’s first girls summit, miserably in office. demonstrating the Government’s commitment to tackling FGM here and overseas. At the summit, the UK announced Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): What an unprecedented package of measures to tackle FGM, responsibility does the Home Office accept for its failure including several commitments to strengthen the law, in the pre-vetting and walking-out process for the Libyan improve the law enforcement response, support front-line personnel who unleashed a tidal wave of criminal offences professionals and work with communities to prevent across the UK and then had to be deported from this abuse. country?

Karl Turner: I thank the Minister and the Home James Brokenshire: I think the hon. Lady is referring Secretary for their work to tackle FGM, and I welcome to the Libyan soldiers who are receiving training in the introduction of protection orders, but may I ask Cambridgeshire. Clearly, action was taken in those whether legal aid will be available in civil proceedings circumstances and they were removed. Clearly, unacceptable where people seek protection through the courts? offences took place, which have been investigated and the appropriate steps have been taken. Lynne Featherstone: We are currently looking at that. Of course, legal aid is available for domestic violence, Crime Levels but we are looking at it specifically in relation to FGM. 15. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I changes there have been in levels of crime in (a) want to push the Minister and set this point in a Kettering, (b) Northamptonshire and (c) England since broader context. There are worrying minorities in this May 2010. [906033] country that do not believe in equal rights for women—it is not just FGM, but a number of other awful things The Minister for Crime Prevention (Lynne Featherstone): that happen to women. Is it not time that women in this Police reform is working and crime is down by more country, especially new immigrants, knew their rights than a fifth under this Government, according to the and protections under the law? independent crime survey for England and Wales. Since June 2010, the number of crimes recorded by the police Lynne Featherstone: I could not agree more, and that has fallen by 12% in Kettering, by 21% in Northamptonshire is why we are working closely across government and in and by 16% in England. communities to push this information down into those communities. As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, Mr Hollobone: I declare my interest as a special some of these communities are particularly closed off, constable. How is the fantastically good work being which makes it even more imperative to work with their done by Northamptonshire police being fed into the members to take these messages in, including in schools crime and policing knowledge hub within the Home and through front-line professionals. Office so that Northamptonshire’s best practice can be spread throughout the country? Deportations Lynne Featherstone: I congratulate my hon. Friend 14. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): on being a special constable for the British Transport How many foreign criminals have been deported from police. The information is being fed in through the the UK in the last 12 months. [906032] College of Policing, and I am grateful to him for praising the crime and policing knowledge hub in the Home The Minister for Security and Immigration (James Office, which is developing a deep understanding of the Brokenshire): Last year, we removed just under 5,100 various drivers of crime. foreign national offenders—a 12% increase over the last two years—and since 2010 the Government have removed Mr Speaker: Parliamentary colleagues can walk along more than 22,000 foreign national offenders, despite a the streets of Northamptonshire safer and more 28% increase over that period in the number of legal emboldened in the knowledge of the deployment of the challenges and appeals designed to frustrate or delay hon. Gentleman’s talents. removal. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Last Mr Bain: The Minister did not mention that the week I met members of Nottingham’s Jewish community, number of deportations of criminals has fallen by 7% since which expressed deep concern about the dramatic increase 2010. The recent National Audit Office report suggested in anti-Semitic abuse to which Members and others that 40% of the delays were down to avoidable processing have been subjected on social media platforms, including errors. Will he explain why the Home Office is so Facebook and . I am sure that these concerns are inefficient? shared across the , including in Kettering and Northamptonshire. I understand that when the James Brokenshire: I do not think the hon. Gentleman police put in RIPA requests to Twitter, they are sent via was listening. Since 2010, we have seen a 28% increase America and it sometimes takes so long that potential in the number of legal challenges to deportation decisions investigations are hampered. What is the Minister doing designed to frustrate or delay the removal of foreign to ensure that companies such as Twitter and Facebook national offenders, and that is why we introduced the fulfil their responsibilities under British law? 15 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 16

Lynne Featherstone: I thank the hon. Lady for her Police Budgets question. All anti-Semitic acts are absolutely deplorable. I can assure her that in the last two weeks, the Home 18. Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): Secretary met the Community Security Trust and the What discussions she has had with the Chancellor of Board of British Deputies. the Exchequer on changes to police budgets in the next comprehensive spending review. [906037] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is quite extraordinary that crime has fallen by more than a fifth Mike Penning: The Home Secretary and the Chancellor in Northamptonshire since this Government came to meet regularly to discuss budget matters. No decisions power. Could it be because under this Government, the have been made about police budgets after March 2016. proportion of police officers out on the streets catching criminals and deterring crime in Northamptonshire has Roberta Blackman-Woods: Does the Minister agree gone up? that many forces, including Durham police, will be unable to cope with large budget cuts—especially at a Lynne Featherstone: Yes. time when they must manage an historic level of demand as well as dealing with increasing challenges such as Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab): The Government child exploitation and cybercrime—without cutting police risk sounding very complacent about areas of crime numbers, which our police and crime commissioner, that are still getting worse. Can the Minister explain the Ron Hogg, says is absolutely inevitable? Government’s lack of action on violent assaults, which are up by 20% in London over the last year, and online Mike Penning: No, I do not accept that. What I do banking fraud, which has soared by 70% nationally? accept is that where cuts have taken place, crime has fallen. Let us consider the area that the hon. Lady Lynne Featherstone: The national crime agency for represents. I quote: banking fraud has been set up and people are, of “Despite these difficult times, I am very proud to report that course, coming forward to report crime when they County Durham and Darlington remain among the safest places previously did not. in the country to live…This performance puts us in an excellent starting position for the period of continued austerity.” I believe that is from County Durham’s Labour police Police and Crime Commissioner By-elections and crime commissioner, Ron Hogg.

16. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Topical Questions What assessment she has made of recent turnout in the police and crime commissioners by-elections. [906034] T2. [906124] Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): If she will make a statement on her departmental The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims responsibilities. (Mike Penning): In the west midlands, 200,000 people voted in the by-election for the PCC and in South The Secretary of State for the Home Department Yorkshire it was 150,000. None of those would have (Mrs Theresa May): Over the weekend we saw yet had a vote if we had carried on with the old unaccountable another brutal murder at the hands of ISIL, that of police authorities—not one. United States aid worker Peter Kassig. Both my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth Steve McCabe: I understand that the rather low turnout (Stephen Doughty) and the Minister for Security and for this quite unpopular experiment in policing has cost Immigration, referred to it earlier. I am sure the House the taxpayer in excess of £5.3 million. Is that what the will agree that, along with the recent shocking attack on Government mean by “value for money”? the Canadian Parliament, it demonstrates the deadly threat that we face from terrorism at home and abroad. Mike Penning: I am very surprised by an Opposition That is why protecting the British public remains the and a Labour party that have PCCs out there such as Government’s No. 1 priority, and why we are taking —[Interruption.] Is the hon. Gentleman decrying urgent action to ensure that our police and intelligence the work that Vera Baird does? That is interesting—we agencies have all the tools that they need to keep people have a Labour party that decries its own PCCs. safe. As I have told the House previously, and as the Prime Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does not my Minister confirmed in Australia last week, we will shortly right hon. Friend agree that turnout in elections for introduce a counter-terrorism Bill which will include PCCs might improve if we went back to using the tried new powers to disrupt people’s ability to travel abroad and tested first-past-the-post method? to fight as well as their ability to return here, and will combat the underlying ideology that feeds, supports Mike Penning: We are thinking carefully about the and sanctions terrorism. The legislation will strengthen two by-elections and about what methodology would our armoury of powers, which will be among the toughest help to increase turnout, but if Labour Members keep in the world in terms of cracking down on returning running them down, it is no surprise that police and foreign fighters. crime commissioners in their own areas—and the shadow Minister told me that they were doing a fantastic job— Heidi Alexander: May I associate myself with the [Interruption.] Members can try and shout me down, Home Secretary’s comments about recent international but, at the end of the day, they will not succeed. events? 17 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 18

The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty T4. [906126] Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) to Children recently launched its “flaw in the law” (Con): Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating campaign, which rightly demands legislative change to Leicestershire police on signing up to the “best use of make it illegal for an adult to send a sexual message to a stop-and-search” scheme, to use stop-and-search less child. When will the Home Secretary give the police the and more fairly, saving police time and further increasing power to intervene earlier, rather than leaving them the trust between the police and the community they unable to act until a child has been coerced into sharing serve so well? an indecent image, lured to a meeting offline or, in the worst cases, sexually abused? Mrs May: I am pleased to join my hon. Friend in congratulating Leicestershire police on signing up to the “best use of stop-and-search” scheme. I am very Mrs May: I agree that we need to be able to intervene clear that the police should be using stop-and-search earlier, so that we can ensure that predatory behaviour powers lawfully in a targeted, intelligence-led way. We is tackled before children are put at risk. Officials had a want to ensure that local communities can hold their further meeting with the NSPCC as recently as last force to account for its use of the powers, and the Friday to discuss the matter further. I can assure the scheme is part of a package of reform that will contribute hon. Lady and the House that we will complete our to a significant reduction in the overall use of stop-and- consideration of the issue as a matter of urgency, so search, but also the better use of stop-and-search and that we have the opportunity to table an amendment to improved stop-to-arrest ratios. I also congratulate the Serious Crime Bill should we wish to do so. Leicestershire police on the fact that over the last four years crime has fallen by 22% in their force area. T3. [906125] Sarah Teather (Brent Central) (LD): As the Minister will know, over the last few months I have Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) been chairing an inquiry in which a cross-party group (Lab): May I join the Home Secretary in passing on the of Members of Parliament has been investigating thoughts and prayers of those on the Opposition Benches immigration detention and the treatment of detainees. to the family and friends of US aid worker Abdul-Rahman We have heard some very disturbing evidence from Kassig, murdered in an act of vile barbarism by ISIL? detainees themselves about the impact on their mental This morning, we learned that a British terror suspect health, and also from representatives of the Royal has left Britain, reportedly to join ISIL. He was previously College of Psychiatry and the British Medical Association. on a terrorism prevention and investigation measure The panel would like an opportunity to discuss the which, under the Home Secretary’s reforms, ran out in Minister’s written evidence with him in person. May I January.We understand she had already taken his passport encourage him to come and give evidence to our inquiry? away. She has told us that We should be very happy to work around all manner of “there has been no substantial increase in overall risk since the difficulties in his diary. introduction of TPIMs”.—[Official Report, 4 November 2013; Vol. 570, c. 25.] The Minister for Security and Immigration (James She told us, too, that when TPIMs ran out either people Brokenshire): I welcome the work of the all-party were no longer at risk or there would be sufficient parliamentary group. Let me emphasise that our priority surveillance and restrictions by the police and Security is to ensure that detention is as short and possible, as Service to manage the risk. How come that has completely well as being safe and secure. Obviously we have made failed in this case? changes in relation to the process for mental health provision, in which Public Health England has been Mrs May: Of course, this country is now facing a involved, but I will certainly continue to reflect on the more severe threat than it has in recent years. That was recommendations that the inquiry makes. reflected in the fact that back in August the joint terrorism analysis centre raised the threat level from T5. [906127] Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Magistrates substantial to severe. That reflected concerns about in Dudley tell me that as a result of the reduction in the western attack plans that were being put together in number of police officers people accused of quite serious Syria and elsewhere. As the right hon. Lady knows—I crimes such as burglary, assault, domestic violence and referred to this in my answer to the first topical question— even rape are no longer being taken to court in the the Government are looking at further legislation that is black country. The number of cases taken to court by needed and we will be publishing a counter-terrorism the police is down by a third. Why do the Government Bill so we can take this through this House. I look not understand that my constituents want to see police forward to her supporting the Government in taking on the streets, offenders in court and criminals in jail? further measures to ensure that we can deal with terrorists.

The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims Yvette Cooper: The Home Secretary did not answer (Mike Penning): I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will the question about what has happened to this man who be pleased to know that there are now more police on has left the country to fight with our enemies, and I the streets, not in back rooms. In my Ministry of Justice think Parliament has a right to know whether her role, we have looked very carefully at cautions, which we change to the legislation made that possible. She talked feel were being used inappropriately. There are now about there being a more serious threat, but it is significant pilots, and there will be a deferred prosecution, and if that there are hardly any TPIMs in use, raising serious people do not abide by that, they will be in court. It is questions about whether they are fit for purpose at the for the Crown Prosecution Service, not politicians, to moment. Two terror suspects have absconded—one in a decide who goes to court and who does not. black cab and one in a burqa—because the Home 19 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 20

Secretary removed the relocation powers and now another T9. [906132] Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) has absconded because there were not sufficient checks (Lab): Given the 400% rise in anti-Semitic incidents this in place once the TPIM ran out. So will she agree as summer, I was pleased to hear that the Home Secretary part of that legislation to reverse the Government’s had met representatives of the Board of Deputies of position on the two main changes she made—first, to British Jews and of the Community Security Trust. Will restore relocation powers and, secondly, to provide she tell us what discussions she has had with Twitter additional controls where needed once TPIMs run out, and Facebook on this matter? before any more terror suspects are able to run away? Mrs May: As the Minister for Crime Prevention has Mrs May: The right hon. Lady will know that both I said, we have had discussions with the Board of Deputies and the Prime Minister have made it clear that in the of British Jews and the CST on the various issues that new counter-terrorism Bill we propose to bring forward they have raised concerning anti-Semitic incidents, and the Government will be looking at the issue of TPIMs in particular on how the police are responding to them. and looking to see whether any further measures are The extremism taskforce has been looking at how social necessary. A number of proposals in relation to TPIMs media companies respond to Government requests relating have been made by the independent reviewer of counter- to extremist material and hate crimes. We have initiated terrorism legislation, David Anderson, and the Government discussions on that matter and more generally on how are looking at the package of proposals he has put extremist material can be taken down from such sites, forward. and we will be progressing that work. Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): T7. [906130] Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): The Home Secretary will know that at least four people What scientific and medical issues is the Department have recently been killed by a substance known as DNP, considering in relation to the introduction of water including, tragically, my 23-year-old constituent Sarah cannon in England and Wales, and what is the time Houston. The substance is readily available on the frame for a decision on their introduction? internet, and the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency cannot ban it because it is not a Mike Penning: The Home Secretary will look carefully pharmaceutical product. Will she look again at reclassifying before she makes any decision on whether water cannon this substance as a class C drug so that no further young can be deployed. We received a formal application from lives are so tragically lost? the lead officer on this only in March 2014, but once we have looked at all the appraisals relating to the need for Lynne Featherstone: I am sorry to hear about my water cannon, the Home Secretary will make a decision. right hon. Friend’s constituent. We keep under constant review the way in which these matters are evolving and T8. [906131] Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Can we the way in which these substances are classified, and I do something practical about prosecuting cases of female undertake to look into the issue that she has raised. genital mutilation? Many such cases have been taken to court in France, but we are in a disgraceful position Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Further to the here. Can we get it through to the communities that question asked earlier by my hon. Friend the Member tolerate FGM that we in this country are serious about for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), may I tell the this issue? This barbarism has to stop. Home Secretary that my Syrian Christian constituents, the Fallou family, have relatives who have fled from The Minister for Crime Prevention (Lynne Featherstone): Nineveh across the border into Turkey? They have I could not agree more with the hon. Gentleman, but I applied to the United Nations High Commissioner for do not think that the Opposition should even begin to Refugees and been told that the first interview that criticise the Government on this, because we have done could possibly be timetabled for them would be in 2017. more in two years than was done in the 13 years of the Will the Home Secretary raise this crucial matter at the Labour Government. Prosecutions are important, and conference in Switzerland later this year? the first one will come to court after the new year, but our focus has to be on prevention and protection, and James Brokenshire: We work closely with the UNHCR it is. in respect of the vulnerable persons relocation scheme. I note the point that the hon. Gentleman has made regarding the timetable for an interview, and I will Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): My hon. Friend the certainly take that away. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) and I have recently written to the Home Office about the problem Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): Will the Home of illegal encampments in Harlow and Thurrock, and Secretary join me in praising the work of North Yorkshire about the police response to them. Will the Minister police? They have launched a street triage scheme in meet me to discuss this matter, and will he set out the which York-based mental health professionals join police powers that the police have to deal with illegal or officers on their patrols. That partnership will allow unauthorised Travellers’ encampments? vulnerable people to receive immediate assistance and a proper mental health assessment at the scene. Mike Penning: I would be more than happy to meet my hon. Friend and my hon. Friend the Member for Mrs May: I am happy to join my hon. Friend in Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price). I know both those areas congratulating North Yorkshire police on the work they well and I would be happy to talk to my hon. Friends at have done on this new street triage scheme in York, and their convenience. indeed the other local parties who have made it possible. 21 Oral Answers17 NOVEMBER 2014 Oral Answers 22

The changes the Government have introduced through the danger of those returning from Syria, but I hope the the street triage pilots, which are now being taken up by Home Secretary will bear it in mind that there are a number of other forces, are having a significant impact implications that should be examined by the various on the way the police are dealing with people with Committees. mental health problems. That presence of a health care professional means that in many force areas we are Mrs May: When we publish the Bill, the hon. Gentleman seeing a significant reduction in the number of people will be able to see the details of our proposals, including who are being taken to a police cell as a place of safety. on the temporary seizure of passports, which I have That is better for not only the police, but, crucially, the spoken about, as has the Prime Minister. The Bill will, individuals themselves. of course, receive proper scrutiny in this House and in another place as it goes through its various stages. I do not think it is the job of the Home Secretary to suggest Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): In to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee whether condemning, like everybody else, the barbaric murder or not he should have an inquiry into this Bill. I have carried by out by the ISIS gangsters, would the Home noticed that the Home Affairs Committee is not backward Secretary consider that the various aspects of the counter- in coming forward on looking at matters the Government terrorism Bill the Prime Minister referred to in Australia propose. should be examined by various Committees of this House, particularly the Home Affairs Committee? Does Several hon. Members rose— she accept that there must be concern about police officers, instead of her, having the right to take away Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to disappoint remaining passports and about the whole question of whether colleagues, but there is pressure on parliamentary time people should be rendered stateless? I do not minimise and we must now move on. 23 17 NOVEMBER 2014 Reserve Recruitment 24

Reserve Recruitment this year. If one was being charitable, one would say that Government plans to replace 20,000 regulars with 30,000 reservists are struggling to say the least. Those of 3.31 pm us who have opposed those plans have questioned the Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con) (Urgent resulting capability gap as 20,000 regulars have been Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to shown the door and the false economies that will loom make a statement on Army Reserve recruitment. as the Government are forced to throw more money at failing plans. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence Let us be absolutely honest about this: these plans (Mr Julian Brazier): I am most grateful to my hon. and have been in a state of flux from the beginning. The gallant Friend for the opportunity to make this statement. 2010 strategic defence and security review showed haste Future Force 2020 represents one of the fundamental and little strategic overlay. In 2011, the then Defence steps this Government have taken to ensure that our Secretary stated that he would keep the regulars in defence is delivered on a sustainable financial basis. The order to check that the reservist plan was working and Government have ensured that the armed forces, both to recruit those reservists. In 2012, that plan was changed, regular and reserve, are structured and resourced to and the regulars were allowed to leave before we had meet the challenges of the 21st century. This is a far cry recruited any reservists. Meanwhile, the start line keeps from the position we inherited, where our armed forces getting changed. We talk about “one year in”, but we were run on a fundamentally unaffordable basis by the are actually 18 months into this plan and there has been previous Government. After years of neglect, this no acknowledgement from the Government. We now Government are reforming and revitalising our reserve have this sorry state of affairs where 20,000 experienced forces. We are investing £1.8 billion in better training troops have left, including some from my own battalion and equipment, and reversing the decline and years of the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, underinvestment in our reserves. We have always said and we are now recruiting—even if one put the most that increasing the trained strength of the reserves to optimistic spin on these figures—at a rate of seven about 35,000 would not happen overnight; it is a five-year reservists a month. If we are to meet our deadline and programme, but one year in we are making steady targets, we need to be recruiting nearer 250 a month. progress, and during the latest quarter we enlisted about Let us not forget that we are 18 months into the plan. twice as many people as we did in the equivalent period The Public Accounts Committee has condemned the last year. plan. It said that the plan has put anticipated savings at The expansion of the reserves is about doing defence risk differently. It is not about swapping regular personnel “and is not delivering value for money.” for reserves or doing defence on the cheap; it is about changing the way we deliver defence to make the best The National Audit office was critical, saying: use of our resources and to harness the talents of the “There are significant risks to value for money which are wider UK society. The contribution of our reserve currently not well understood by the Department or the Army.” forces will deliver, in a cost-effective way, the capable It has even been said that these plans have been put on and usable armed forces that the nation needs. It will the Treasury’s watch list. better harness the talents of the wider community and help restore the links and understanding between the I have a series of questions for the Minister. There armed forces and that community. have been extra costs: £10,000 given to ex-regulars to There have been a number of technical challenges join the reserves,£300 to the civvies, £500 to the employee affecting Army Reserve recruitment, which have been reservist per calendar month, pension liabilities, and the widely discussed in this House before, and we continue IT fiasco. How much extra are these plans now costing to introduce measures to improve recruitment. So far, over and above the original estimate? those have included: improved financial incentives—much Secondly, how big are our capability gaps? Can the greater incentives with employers; removing delays, Minister guarantee that there will be no operational sometimes of many months, caused by medical fall-out from these plans and tell us what assessment documentation and security checks; increasing capacity has been made? Finally, in this increasingly uncertain at selection centres; and giving a key role for mentoring world, surely the time has come for a fundamental back to units. reappraisal of the need for stronger defence. Trying to The programme to grow the reserves is on track. We get our defence on the cheap is not the right approach. have reversed 18 years of decline. The Army’s latest We should now start recruiting regulars to the Army to projections indicate that the Army Reserve can reach its bring up the trained strength of the Regular Army to at 30,000 trained strength target by April 2019. The Chief least 100,000. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s of the General Staff, the Secretary of State and I are all response. committed to achieving that target. The future reserves programme is a bold change Mr Brazier: I am grateful to my hon. and gallant programme. It will make defence more flexible and able Friend for his thoughts. Let us be clear on the numbers. to deal with the changing demands placed upon it. I say The Chief of the General Staff, the professional head of this to the House: the plan is working. the Army, said to the Defence Committee on 5 November: “Already, at the six-month point, we have got to 2,100”— Mr Baron: I thank the Minister for responding. No matter how he dresses up the figures, the latest recruitment he was talking about new recruits to the reserves— figures for the Army Reserve show that the trained “and it is my sense that we will increase the numbers beyond the strength has fallen between April 2013 and October of target in this year…It is not something that will be solved overnight, 25 Reserve Recruitment17 NOVEMBER 2014 Reserve Recruitment 26 because we have had the last 10 or 15 years when we have not the short term, because of flooding and so on—and invested in the Reserve in the way that we are now investing in the opportunities for intelligent mobilisation for formed Reserve.” bodies or individuals that will be there all the time. The point—I have tried to explain this to my hon. Most people join the reserves because they want an and gallant Friend a number of times—is that we had a opportunity to deploy on operations. It may help the very long period of decline and neglect. In setting up a hon. Gentleman, whom I have known for a long time, if new system that for the first time for a decade re-established I give a few examples of that. proper medical checks and proper fitness checks, started In February, under Operation Toral, the next phase to collate the numbers properly and so on, we had some in Afghanistan, a formed platoon from my local battalion, glitches, which have been widely discussed. Most of the 3rd Battalion the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment, improvements we made have happened only in the past will go to Afghanistan with its sister unit, the Royal few months. In the last quarter, we recruited almost Anglians. We have 24 people, 19 of whom are medics, twice as many people as in the equivalent quarter last going out on the Ebola operation. In 2012, the framework year. I am grateful to him for his continuing interest in battalion for Cyprus was a reserve battalion. The the subject, but may I recommend that he does what opportunities are there, but call-out will be compulsory almost every single unit I have visited recommends and only when there is a real emergency. It is worth noting visits some reserve units to discover the exciting things that 25,000 individuals went through Iraq and Afghanistan, that are going on? most of them under a Labour Government. All of them went through the intelligent mobilisation process, except Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The Army for a relatively small number involved in the original Reserve has expanded by just 20 troops in the past Iraq operation. year—20, not the 30,000 personnel promised by the Prime Minister. Capita is being paid £50 million a year My understanding throughout this has been that to assist in recruitment, meaning that each new net Labour’s policy is to support our plan in principle, recruit costs taxpayers £2.5 million. That does not while doing what an Opposition always should do: hold include the millions spent on online and other advertising the Government to account for delivery. I have heard campaigns. The Minister is failing so badly, two years nothing in what the hon. Gentleman has said to suggest after the policy was announced, that the upper age limit that that has changed, and I am pleased about that. for recruitment is now to be raised, even though, from his reply to the question, one would not think that Several hon. Members rose— anything had changed. This is a shambles—yet more along the lines of the Mr Speaker: Order. A large number of hon. and right failed IT systems that wasted millions of pounds of hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye. Ordinarily, I taxpayers’ money and the repeatedly missed and repeatedly try to accommodate everybody; that probably will not readjusted recruitment targets. Now we have the fiasco be possible today, because there is considerable pressure of the increase in the upper age limit for recruitment, on time, as there are two statements to follow. What is changing the goalposts to meet the targets. Urgent required is exemplary brevity, a tutorial in which can clarity is needed on the level of integration between now be provided by Mr James Gray. regular and reserve units following the recent statement by the new Chief of the General Staff. Will the Minister confirm whether it is now Government policy that Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I will seek reservists will not be called on routinely and will instead to do that, Mr Speaker. My hon. Friend the Minister be used only in times of emergency? When was he has a long-standing commitment to the reserve Army, consulted on that change in policy? which I salute. I am proud that my Territorial Army May I ask the Minister to be honest with the Army regiment is, I understand, 125% above its recruitment and the British people about what size he envisages not target, which is great. Other regiments around England only the reserve but the British Army will be at the end could follow that example. However, does he agree that of the process? He said that his policy is bold. Yes, it is we cannot replace regular soldiers with reserves on a bold, but it is fundamentally flawed, it has failed to be regular basis? Would it not be better to do away with tested, and the tragic consequence will be that Britain’s the 82,000 and 30,000 figures, and replace that with an defence will be vulnerable for years to come. Army of 112,000, which could be made up partly of one and partly of the other? Mr Brazier: I think that the hon. Gentleman had drafted his points before he heard my answer to my Mr Brazier: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but I am hon. and gallant Friend, so I will not repeat the same not quite certain what he is proposing. We are planning points about the changes in the system that are just for an Army of 82,000 regulars, and 30,000 reservists coming through now and are evident in the latest quarter. integrated with them—in other words, available as formed Let me deal with the hon. Gentleman’s more substantive sub-units or individuals to supplement the regulars questions. The message coming from the Chief of the outside periods of great national emergency, and to be General Staff has been cleared with the Secretary of called up in much larger numbers during periods of State and me. We are all at one on this and I am grateful great national emergency. for the opportunity to make that clear. When we talk May I pick up on a point made by the hon. Member about integration, there is an important distinction to for North Durham (Mr Jones) that I failed to answer? be made between compulsory call-out, which will occur We make no apology whatever for recruiting older only in times of public emergency—in the long term, people to specialist roles, such as intelligence roles, and because we suddenly hit an unexpected conflict, or in as medics, where they have specialist skills. As for the 27 Reserve Recruitment17 NOVEMBER 2014 Reserve Recruitment 28

[Mr Brazier] Mr Brazier: I have the greatest admiration for the hon. Lady. I sat next to her on the Defence Committee new standards of fitness and so on that we are introducing for four years, but she really has missed the point on for medics, there is no suggestion of having those people this. Nobody has rebuked the CGS. The CGS designed in the combat arms. the detail for this plan in his last job but one. The hon. Lady misunderstands the difference between opportunities Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): for regular use of reserves, of which I have just given Those of us who, in principle, support what the Minister three examples, and compulsory call-out. That is the is trying to achieve have always warned about the distinction she must understand. potential for over-optimism, and about the resistance and about the need to drive this in. None of this Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Does the Minister appears to be working at the speed that was envisaged. agree that recruitment to the Army Reserve in the six The Government really have to accept that there is a months to 30 September will be well over 2,000 people, bigger gap in capability than they have hitherto which represents a 60% increase on the same period last acknowledged, and that the gap will probably go on for year? If that acceleration in Army Reserve recruitment longer than was planned. They must acknowledge that is sustained, it will be in stark contrast to the planned and say what they plan to do about it. reduction in the TA under the last Government?

Mr Brazier: I have the greatest respect for the right Mr Brazier: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is a hon. Gentleman. I am glad that he, too, buys into the 60% increase over six months, and as the bulk of that principle of the plan. We are committed to the same occurred during the most recent quarter, it is almost targets. He will see that as the measures that we have a doubling in that period. He is absolutely right. It is a taken to unblock the recruiting system feed through tremendous turnaround after years of decline under the into the numbers—let us remember that we are looking previous Government. at 12-month rolling data, and that will take time—we will achieve these targets. We are committed to getting 30,000 reservists trained by 2018. I look forward to Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I thank the Minister for further exchanges on this with Members from across reversing the daft proposal to close the TA centre in the House. Widnes following my representations. Does he have any concerns about how Capita is working? For example, a Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): The assumptions constituent of mine has applied to join the regulars but underlying this policy were not tested because of the has been given four separate dates verbally and has still experiences of the Minister for the Armed Forces in the not been able to join the Army. Is not the problem with TA 30 years ago. I wrote to the Secretary of State over a Capita as well? year ago to point out that this policy was highly unlikely to work, and that the Department would have to throw Mr Brazier: Will the hon. Gentleman, for whom I a fortune at it to try to make it work. It is not working. have the greatest respect, write to me so that I can look When will Ministers face up to that? At the current rate into that individual case? We have had a number of of progress, it will take between 100 and 200 years to delays in the system. We are sorting those out, and the achieve the target. process is now working much faster for both regulars and reservists, but I would be grateful for a letter. Mr Brazier: I am grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend. He says that the policy should have been tested; Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I have been waiting the recommendations came out of an inquiry chaired by my phone for the call to join the Army Reserve, but by the Chief of the Defence Staff. They have been so far nothing has happened. What percentage of the strongly and publicly supported by the Chief of the 30,000 Army Reserve personnel will be available for not General Staff, both publicly in front of the Select Committee a great national emergency at any one time—assuming on Defence and privately in front of the all-party group, we get 30,000? of which my hon. Friend is a member. We know that we can achieve this; the plain fact is that we said that it Mr Brazier: Over a decade or so, 25,000 reservists would take five years. We are unblocking the recruiting were called out of what was then a falling institution. I system. The units that I visit all suggest that they are have given my hon. and gallant Friend some examples well on their way. We will achieve the targets. of the things we are calling reservists out for now—on intelligent mobilisation, not compulsorily, for Afghanistan, Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): for Cyprus, and for interesting exercises all over the When those reforms were originally launched, one of world, such as the British Army Training Unit Suffield the key principles was for the reservist force to “routinely in Canada and live firing in Kenya. I cannot give him a share” jobs that were once the firm number, but we have seen that large numbers of “exclusive domain of Regular forces”. reserves are available and willing to come. Compulsory There was therefore that integration. Back in October, call out, as the CGS has made clear, will happen in a when the Chief of the General Staff suggested that national emergency. reservists would be used only in emergencies, he was kind of rebuked for not being in line with Government Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): On 24 June, the policy. Is not the reality now that the original policy of MOD told me in answer to a written question that sharing is no longer possible, and we are reduced, £300 million had been spent so far on the recruiting because of the numbers, to using them only in national partnering project. How much money has been spent to emergencies? date on this fiasco? 29 Reserve Recruitment17 NOVEMBER 2014 Reserve Recruitment 30

Mr Brazier: I will have to write to the hon. Gentleman Minister, as a champion of the reserves even when we to give him a total figure. I do not recognise the figure were spending more money on the armed forces, say to he quotes, but I will write to him. Most of the Capita dispel that impression? programme is directed towards the regular forces. It has had some difficulties, some around software, which has Mr Brazier: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question, been a feature of Governments of all complexions. It is not least because he is a former member of the Royal in the process of a considerable set of improvements, Naval Reserve, who are well ahead of their recruiting most of which are now in place. targets. The short answer is that if we want defence to prosper in this country when there are very many calls Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I congratulate on the public purse, we need the footprint around the my hon. and gallant Friend on all the efforts he is country that the reserve forces have—they are represented making in this regard, but may I make one small point? in half of all the constituencies in this House—to According to the sources I speak to, the smaller the remind people what armed forces are all about. Army gets, the more professional it needs to be in order to be more flexible in dealing with a greatly changing Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Does the world, so the proportion should stay at 80:20 and not Minister accept that part of the problem is that some move to 70:30. Can we therefore go back the other way applicants, although they have the potential, do not yet and have a smaller Army, yes, but one that is more meet all the requirements? Does he believe that there is professional, not less so? I am not saying that the part a place in the recruitment system for the military preparation timers are not professional—they are—but a smaller course that was devised by Lieutenant Colonel Tony full-time Army has the necessary flexibility. Hollingsworth, who runs Knowsley Skills Academy?

Mr Brazier: I hear my hon. and gallant Friend with Mr Brazier: The right hon. Gentleman asks a really respect. However, if he visits, as I am sure he does from excellent question. This is why we are looking at the time to time, the Royal Wessex Yeomanry in his own criteria again. We have reintroduced proper medicals, constituency, he will see just how good that unit is and proper fitness tests, proper intelligence tests, and all the how much it can achieve. The size of the Regular Army things that disappeared under the previous Government. came out of the very difficult decisions that we had to He is right. There should be room for flexibility, and make in the strategic defence and security review. We where people are, for example, a little bit below the right have to be clear that if we want to have a framework to level in the fitness test, units have measures in place to expand a small professional Army, and if we want to give them coaching to bring them to up it. I would like keep connections between that small professional Army to have a longer conversation with him about this and the wider civilian community, we need a substantial another time. reserve. Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I am proud of our reserve forces and grateful to employers who participate Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I do not to allow workers to serve, but given the huge cuts in the think that anyone in the House would dispute the fact regular forces what happens if recruitment for the reserve that this is a bold challenge. No one is unaware that forces does not meet the targets the Minister is talking there have been technical problems and glitches, but the about? Minister must know that there is a high degree of concern that only 32% of the regulars have confidence Mr Brazier: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his that reservists will be well integrated within their units, question. We are confident that we will meet the targets. and that there has been a net increase to the reserves of I say again that in the last three-month period we only 20. What can we do to improve on those figures? achieved almost double the equivalent level for last year. We are committed to those targets so his question Mr Brazier: I have already answered the second question does not arise. from the hon. Lady, who is another fellow member of the Select Committee, by listing the very many changes John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): After this that we have made to the recruiting pipeline and noting expensive disaster, does the Minister have a shred of a that in the last quarter we almost doubled the numbers regret about hacking away 20% of the Army’s strength, coming through. On her first point, there are indeed particularly given the fact that some regular soldiers some in the Regular Army who do not agree with the served in Iraq, in Afghanistan and at the Olympics and changes, having seen former comrades leave, but the fact were then told, “There’s your P45. Now sod off.”? What is that a Chief of the Defence Staff chaired the original a disgraceful way to treat soldiers. commission that set out the overall plan and the Chief of the General Staff wrote the detailed blueprint. Mr Brazier: This Government have taken huge steps to build the armed forces covenant and to ensure that Several hon. Members rose— veterans who left the armed forces on redundancy terms were well looked after. Members of the hon. Gentleman’s Mr Speaker: Order. We need a pithy question without own Front-Bench team made it clear that under Labour preamble, perhaps to be authored and delivered by the there would have to be cuts in defence. The previous hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). shadow Secretary of State said: “The truth is the Labour Party would have to make cuts if we Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Is not part were in power.” of the problem that the increase in reserves has been We have had to make difficult decisions because of the seen as a cover for a cut in regular forces? What can the economic circumstances we inherited. 31 Reserve Recruitment17 NOVEMBER 2014 Reserve Recruitment 32

Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): As someone who including the £500 a month extra compensation for a has visited reserve units, I find increasing optimism small business that loses an employee on operations, among commanding officers and others that they are over and above the full compensation package. going to achieve the targets. May I suggest a very small tweak? The emergency service cap on recruits needs to Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): How be reviewed. For example, in the Met police a reserve much money has been spent on television recruitment recruitment cap of 0.25% has existed since the cold war. ads this year, and is the Minister happy with that cost? This could be an ideal recruiting ground. Will the Minister look at it? Mr Brazier: I am sorry, I did not hear the question.

Mr Brazier: I am most grateful for the question from Mr Speaker: How much money has been spent on my hon. and gallant Friend, who served in the same television recruitment advertisements this year? regiment as I did, although he was a regular and I was a Mr Brazier: I will have to write to the hon. Gentleman. reservist. He is exactly right. The cap is being addressed. Clearly, the Metropolitan police need to have a cap, but Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does the it is much too low at present. There is a discussion going Minister think that the closure of recruiting offices such on. A commanding officer I met had lost three military as the one in Bury in my constituency has had any effect police soldiers from her unit because they had got jobs on the number of reservists being recruited? with the Met and been made to resign because the quota was filled. Mr Brazier: I do not believe that that has had a direct effect. Most reservists join initially through their local Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I reserve unit or, in some cases, through the national am not a defence buff, but I believe in the security of website. There was one immediate indirect effect—while our country and I recognise the dangers that are emerging all the glitches were in the system, which we have ironed across Europe. If I were sitting in the Kremlin right out over the past few months, the lack of somebody now, I would be very happy about the run-down of our immediately available on the high street to mentor regular forces. What does the Minister say about that? somebody who had not already got dug in with a unit made a significant difference. I do not believe it will Mr Brazier: I have too much respect for the hon. make a long-term difference. Gentleman to get too party political about what happened to our defences under the previous Government. If he Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): Being the fourth chooses to cruise the BBC website, he will find that in highest spender on defence in the world has led to the the past four weeks Vladimir Putin has announced a deaths of 632 of our brave British soldiers in pursuit of very large expansion in the Russians’ part-time reserve non-existent weapons of mass destruction and in Helmand army. in the belief that not a shot would be fired. Why cannot we pursue an independent foreign policy and recognise John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): One area of apprehension that spending above our budgets and trying to punch in Salisbury is the package of incentives and support above our weight always results in dying beyond our available to small and medium-sized employers. Will the responsibilities? Minister say something about why employers should be content to allow their employees to volunteer to join the Mr Brazier: I am not sure how that fits into the reserves, and why that package has improved? statement, but I am very happy to comment. The fact is that we should be proud of what we have achieved in Helmand province. That operation started, as did the Mr Brazier: The first thing we should recognise is previous one, under a Labour Government. that this is part of corporate social responsibility. Any employer who signs up faces the prospect that in extremis Several hon. Members rose— his employee might be compulsorily mobilised. What he gets for that is somebody who is motivated and who is Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to disappoint colleagues, trained in a variety of ways not available in civilian life. but I have taken 20 Back Benchers and I did give notice What he gets also is a loyal employee with good values. that it might not be possible to accommodate everybody, The financial side has been improved in various ways, rather exceptionally, today. 33 17 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 34

G20 protectionism; on dealing with the damaging effects of global tax avoidance and corruption; and on confronting the instability caused by conflict and disease. I want 4.5 pm briefly to take each of those in turn. The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure On fighting protectionism and promoting free trade, the whole House will join me in utterly condemning the we welcomed the breakthrough on the Bali trade facilitation sickening murder of American aid worker Peter Kassig. agreement, which had been stuck for so long. After an Our thoughts are with his family and friends at this agreement between America and India, it will now go time. ahead. There was also an important meeting between We will not be cowed by these sick terrorists. They the countries of the European Union and the United will be defeated and they must face the justice they States to agree that an EU-US trade deal must be done deserve. The threat is faced by countries right across the next year. That could add £10 billion to the UK economy world. We must face it together. It featured strongly in alone. the discussions I had with Prime Minister Tony Abbott Such trade deals can mean jobs and growth for Britain, in my bilateral visit to Australia. I took the opportunity so I challenged European leaders to think ambitiously of setting out further detail on some of the steps we will about other deals that could be done, including with take as part of the counter-terrorism Bill here in the our host, Australia, and with emerging markets such as United Kingdom. As the House knows, they include India and China. We pressed for reform of the World Trade new powers for police at ports to seize passports, to stop Organisation so that poverty-busting trade deals can be suspects travelling and to stop British nationals returning put together more quickly, and agreed and implemented. to the UK unless they do so on our terms. Also included Britain, Germany and the US, among others, all agreed are new rules to prevent airlines that do not comply that the way this organisation works needs to change in with our no-fly lists, or our security screening measures, the future. from landing in the UK. Every country across the world is examining what powers are necessary to keep their Secondly, there was some progress on ensuring that people safe, and I am determined that we should do that big companies pay the taxes they owe. This is not just a right here. We will make a full announcement about the technical issue; it is a moral one. Ensuring that the counter-terrorism Bill soon. correct taxes are paid is vital in sustaining low taxes and enabling hard-working families and small businesses to Let me turn to the G20 summit in Brisbane this keep more of the money that they earn. That is why weekend. Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott set a Britain first put this on the international agenda at the clear agenda for the world economy and we gave it our G8 in Northern Ireland last year. This issue is now strong backing. The Brisbane action plan includes a firmly hard-wired into the G20 agenda. commitment on dealing with our debts and an infrastructure hub that will see British companies as part of a global This summit agreed a G20-wide action plan to ensure pipeline for the biggest projects on the planet, but above that there is nowhere for large companies to avoid all it is a plan for growth and jobs, with every country paying taxes that are due. Some 93 different countries pledging actions that will boost global growth and and tax authorities are now signed up to sharing tax therefore help create jobs. The aim is an additional information automatically; before the G8 in Northern $2 trillion to be added to the global economy. Ireland, the number was just 29. As the OECD set out in Brisbane, the action we have taken so far already When it comes to growth last year, this year and the means that, in its view, $37 billion of extra tax has been forecast for next year, as the head of the International paid by big corporations. Monetary Fund said in Brisbane, it is Britain and America that are leading the pack. However, it is also clear that The Lough Erne summit made important commitments growth is stalling in the eurozone, world trade is not at G8 level to stop the true owners of companies from developing as fast as it should, previously fast-growing hiding behind a veil of secrecy. That is vital in tackling economies are slowing down and only today Japan the cancer of corruption that does so much to destroy entered recession. Those warning signs in the global countries and to increase risks to our own security. In economy show that it is more important than ever that Brisbane, we agreed to extend the work on beneficial we stick to our long-term economic plan. That is the ownership to cover the whole G20, China included. only way we can secure a better future for our country. Thirdly, Britain continued to play a leading role in There were also important discussions on climate dealing with the threat of conflict and disease. That is change, on which China and America took important vital not only in keeping our people safe, but in ensuring steps forward at the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation our long-term prosperity. On the conflict in Ukraine, summit in terms of moving towards a deal in Paris next we called on Russia to respect the Minsk agreements year. Britain will continue to play a key role, including and made it clear that if it does not, we remain ready to by using our already earmarked resources for the United intensify sanctions. Of course, there is an economic cost Nations green climate fund. In terms of the global to us from sanctions, but I believe that the cost of negotiations, the European Union has taken the lead allowing such a fundamental breach of our rules-based with significant planned cuts in carbon emissions, and I system to go unchecked would be infinitely greater in made clear the importance of every country, Australia the long run. included, making a contribution to securing a deal next I met President Putin and once again made it clear year. that continued destabilisation of Ukraine can only mean My focus at this summit was on helping to deliver our more sanctions and more pressure. He has said that he long-term economic plan by addressing some of the big does not want a frozen conflict and, as he put it to me, global challenges that could potentially threaten our he sees Ukraine as a single political space, but he must recovery at home. There was important progress on fighting be judged by his deeds, not by his words. 35 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 36

[The Prime Minister] affects rich and poor countries alike. In June 2013 at the G8, the Prime Minister promised that all UK Crown On Ebola, I wrote to Australian Prime Minister Abbott dependencies and overseas territories would produce ahead of the summit to secure a specific G20 leaders’ registers on who are the real owners of shell companies. statement with a clear plan for dealing with the disease Seventeen months on from the G8, may I ask for an and for improving our readiness to respond to such update on progress towards those goals? This weekend epidemics in future. Other countries, including South the G20 repeated the commitment of the G8 that developing Korea, Japan and Australia, are now doing more to countries would have a place at the negotiating table as help with more money, trained medical staff and equipment, part of the process to reform global tax rules, but as I while the IMF agreed to double its current programmes understand it, 18 months on from the G8 that has not in Sierra Leone, Liberia and Guinea and to provide happened. Can the Prime Minister explain why not? additional debt relief. On climate change, I agree with the Prime Minister The UK will continue to lead the way on the development on the welcome steps made by President Obama and of a vaccine, with the Wellcome Trust establishing a President Xi last week on carbon emissions. I also joint research fund of more than £1 million. We welcomed welcome the agreement to support the climate fund that the support of the English and Scottish Football is designed to help with the effects of climate change. Associations, which will raise money at their friendly When will the UK announce our contribution to the international tomorrow night. The UK Government climate fund, and will the Prime Minister explain why will match fund any public donations up to £5 million. there has been a delay in doing so? What is being done I pushed the G20 to consider additional measures to bring more sceptical countries with us for the ambitious that could improve the ability of the global community agreement that we need at the vital talks in Paris next to respond to a similar outbreak of disease in the year? future. This includes the possibility of a standing pool On the Ebola crisis, I welcome the UK’s role as the of global medical experts who can be deployed quickly second largest donor to help tackle this potential threat during the early stages of a potential epidemic; strengthening not just to people in west Africa, but across the world. in-country surveillance and health infrastructure; asking However, the G20 conclusions were short on specific the IMF and the World Bank to explore new mechanisms commitments from other countries. What does the Prime for ensuring that the world is better prepared to deal Minister think we can do to encourage further other with such pandemics in future; and doing more to fight countries—including those within the EU—to ensure bacteria that are resistant to present-day antibiotics. that we tackle the crisis with aid, equipment and, especially, The World Health Organisation itself requires some health workers? fundamental reform. Finally, let me turn to the G20 conclusions on global This was a good G20 for Britain. We delivered progress growth. Today the Prime Minister tells us that red lights on the key global economic challenges that will help to are flashing in the global economy—I think that is what protect us from a global economic downturn. In doing is known as getting your excuses in early. He used to tell so, we supported our long-term economic plan to repair us that the problems in the British economy were all to the broken economy we inherited, and to deliver jobs do with the British Government and nothing to do with and growth in every part of our country. I commend international factors; now he wants to tell us that on his this statement to the House. watch they are all to do with international factors and nothing to do with the British Government. 4.13 pm Is it not the truth that before the Prime Minister went to Brisbane we already knew that his export targets Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I thank were off track and that the trade deficit was the highest the Prime Minister for his statement. I join him in it has been for 25 years? Before he went to Brisbane, we expressing horror and revulsion at the barbaric murder knew that Britain’s productivity had stagnated on his of US aid worker Peter Kassig. Once again, this is a watch, and that average families are £1,600 a year worse demonstration of ISIL’s evil ideology perpetrated against off. He has gone from saying that everything is fixed the innocent—our thoughts go out to his family at this thanks to him, to saying that everything is not fixed but terrible time—and it reinforces our determination to it is nothing to do with him. All along he should have defeat ISIL. been listening to the British people, who see deep problems Let me start with the situation in Ukraine. The ceasefire in an economy not working for them. Is it time that he agreed in September is extremely fragile, and there are stopped blaming everybody else for an economy that is recent reports, confirmed by the Organisation for Security great for a few people at the top, but that is not and Co-operation in Europe, of further Russian military delivering for most working people? vehicles crossing the border. Does the Prime Minister think that enough is being done to send a clear message The Prime Minister: Let me thank the right hon. to Russia about its aggression, and to support President Gentleman for his remarks about Peter Kassig on which Poroshenko’s Government? Under what circumstances there is complete unity across this House and country. will the UK push for further sanctions against President He asked whether the message is clear enough on Ukraine, Putin and Russia? We are all well aware of the way that and I believe that all the European leaders, including a conflict such as the one in Ukraine can generate the European Commission and others who had meetings headlines and then be forgotten. This must not become with President Putin, gave a very clear message—it has a forgotten conflict. actually been quite refreshing how much unity there has Let me turn to the issues on the formal G20 agenda. been between the countries of the European Union on As with any summit, the task is to turn good intentions the one hand, and the US on the other, in terms of into concrete measures. Tax avoidance is a problem that giving a very clear message. 37 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 38

The right hon. Gentleman asked what would trigger Because of the difficult decisions we have made, we will further sanctions, and the easiest way to answer that is see a drumbeat of new destroyers, new frigates, new aircraft to say that further destabilisation would trigger further carriers and new fighter jets coming off the production sanctions, just as taking down destabilisation would lines, so we are in a very strong position. result in the removal of sanctions. He says that Ukraine But I do not actually believe that the solution to should not be a forgotten conflict, and that is absolutely Ukraine is a military solution. Of course it is right that right. We must not have a frozen conflict in Europe in NATO is helping to strengthen Ukraine’s defence the way that the world—in my view, wrongly—moved infrastructure, as we agreed in Cardiff, but crucially on after the destabilisation of Georgia. what is required is a political settlement that respects On the G20 tax agenda, every one of the Crown the independence of Ukraine. What President Putin dependencies and overseas territories has signed up to will respect is a unity of purpose on behalf of European having an action plan on beneficial ownership, which is countries and the United States to maintain the pressure progress. Some of them have registers and some are and the sanctions until he changes his behaviour. considering—as we are—making those public. Crucially, every single one has agreed to the automatic exchange of tax information. That is the real breakthrough, I Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): On the crucial think, because if all those tax authorities are exchanging issue of tax avoidance, could the Prime Minister say information, it means that companies cannot hide where whether he is satisfied with the attitude and progress they are making their money and more and fairer taxes being made by Mr Juncker in respect of the scandalous will be paid as a result. behaviour by Luxembourg when he was its Prime Minister? On climate change, the right hon. Gentleman asks what is being done to persuade the sceptical countries. The Prime Minister: I am satisfied that every country There is pressure on every country to bring forward its in the European Union has signed up to the automatic plans for the meeting in Paris, and that should include exchange of tax information. For many years, it was not every country in the world. In terms of the climate only Luxembourg but one or two other countries in the fund, Britain has money available for climate funds—we EU that did not sign up to that. We are making progress, were one of the first to put money to one side and make but I will never be fully satisfied, because until every it available—but it is important this time to make sure jurisdiction in the world signs up we will not be able to that other countries are bringing in their donations. get rid of tax avoidance. That has not always happened in the past, and I am glad that it is happening. The biggest breakthrough in Sir Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): In the conversations recent days is the fact that China and America came to with Mr Putin, did the Prime Minister remind him of an agreement at the Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation his unwelcome interventions in Georgia and Transnistria, summit to put more on the table in terms of carbon and make it clear that the Baltic states were clearly off emissions. limits to the EU and NATO? May I welcome what the On Ebola, the right hon. Gentleman asked what specific Prime Minister said about additional funding for Ebola pledges were made. At the G20, Korea and Japan made and the global attack on taxes? On climate change—on specific pledges and, of course, Australia has backed up which Britain has been in the lead globally—can he its plan to provide 100 beds in Sierra Leone under the indicate what Tony Abbott said Australia’s contribution plans that we have. At the EU summit we managed to would be? double other countries’ donations so that the EU is up to ¤1 billion. The Prime Minister: To answer my right hon. Friend’s The right hon. Gentleman ended with an extraordinary last question first, the Australians have pledged a 5% cut set of points on growth. I am very happy to defend and in carbon emissions, which they say is equivalent to a take some credit for what is happening in the British 19% cut on business as usual, but I think that they will economy, which is growing at 3% and has the biggest face further pressure, as an important economy, to fall in unemployment on record and 400,000 new businesses. throw in more cuts to carbon as the whole world comes Because of the difficult decisions that we took, the together in Paris. British economy is doing well. The difference is that while there are problems in the world economy, we can On my right hon. Friend’s other questions, the discussions see that Britain is outperforming other countries. The I had with President Putin were frank. We did not mention figures speak for themselves. every problem and issue between Britain and Russia, but crucially we looked at how we could try to find a It is always a pleasure to get back to Britain and find pathway by which Ukraine’s integrity and independence that some things have not changed: our language, the are respected. That is the key to de-escalating the situation, beauties of our climate—and, crucially, that the right and I was very frank about that. hon. Gentleman is still in his place. On Ebola, Britain has played a key part and we should Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Would be proud of that. Others are now stepping up and the my right hon. Friend’s reportedly robust private World Bank is also looking at ways it can help us to conversations with President Putin be even more persuasive sustain that commitment. if it was seen that Britain is rearming? Mr Speaker: Perhaps my natural generosity got the The Prime Minister: What I would say is that we have better of me. For the avoidance of doubt, knights, no one of the top five defence budgets anywhere in the matter how distinguished and indeed amiable, do not world. We spend more than £30 billion on defence and have an automatic right to ask three questions rather people know that we have hugely capable armed forces. than one. 39 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 40

Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): The Prime Minister: My right hon. and learned Friend The Prime Minister mentioned the need for new anti-terror is absolutely right. The change in Congress, if anything, laws. Does he regret watering down the ones we had in makes the chances of a successful trade deal more likely the first place? and so we should push as hard as we possibly can. The point I made to other European leaders is that we need The Prime Minister: I think we have done the right to work hard to quash some of the wholly false arguments thing in terms of listening to the security and intelligence that are being put about by opponents of the transatlantic services and listening to the independent reviewer of trade and investment partnership. It does not in any terrorism, who said he thinks the steps we have taken way have to affect our national health service, for instance, have been the right ones. Of course, we will announce and nor does it mean that we will be lowering food or the full range of measures we will be taking in the health and safety standards. Indeed, there is an argument anti-terrorism Bill. The Bill will come before the House, to make to non-governmental organisations and others I believe, before the end of the month. that Europe and America setting some of these global standards is actually good for the world, as well as Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington) (Con): While I pay being a free trade deal that can lift growth and jobs. tribute to the many robust exchanges that the Prime Minister and other western leaders had with Mr Putin Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) on Ukraine, has there not yet again been a failure to (Lab): Will the Prime Minister update the House on make clear to Mr Putin that the heavy Russian artillery specific progress on delivering transparency in extractive and forces flooding into Ukraine as we speak will lead industries, which we know cause so much corruption not just to sanctions but to economic and financial that is damaging to developing countries? sanctions? Will my right hon. Friend not acknowledge that further visa controls and asset freezes on Mr Putin’s The Prime Minister: In this area, on this occasion, the cronies will be as meaningless, impotent and irrelevant G20 rather under-delivered. We have made progress on as they have been in the past? the exchange of tax information, which is vital, and on the idea that every country has to have a process of The Prime Minister: I hugely respect my right hon. transparency for beneficial ownership so that tax authorities and learned Friend’s position, views and experience, but can find out who owns what, but the hon. Lady is right on this particular issue I do not entirely agree. If we that the third leg is further progress on the extractive look at the decline in the ruble, the difficulties Russian industries and the extractive industries transparency banks have had in raising finance and the fact that initiative. We made limited progress, but it was not a Russian growth has been downgraded, all combined strong feature of what we agreed at the weekend. with an oil price where the Russian budget does not remotely balance, I think there is economic pressure. As Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Given that long as we stay united, keep up that pressure and the United States has been the fastest-growing advanced respond to further destabilisation with further pressure, economy since 2009, based on the exploitation of cheap it may take time but I think we can persuade Russia that energy, was there any discussion about what we and there is a different and better path to take. others need to do to compete with America industrially? We will need to invest in a lot of cheap energy to keep Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Is there not up. something faintly comical about a British Prime Minister talking about putting more sanctions on Russia, while The Prime Minister: There was a discussion about the same British Prime Minister is helping Russian energy, and it is notable now that America starts these oligarchs in Britain to bankroll the Tory party in which interventions by explaining that it is the world’s largest he is helping to make the money? It sounds to me like producer of oil and gas. My right hon. Friend makes an hypocrisy. important point though: we should not be left out in the shale gas revolution. It has helped American competitiveness The Prime Minister: I do not even know where to and energy prices, and I want to ensure that we do start with the hon. Gentleman. When he started his everything in the UK to take advantage of it too. question I thought perhaps he had forgotten that the communists were not running Russia any more. I know Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The summit marked he used to back them in those days, but I thought he the first face-to-face meeting between the Prime Minister would have moved on a bit since then. and Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi. The right hon. Gentleman has said previously that trade between Mr Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe) (Con): Does my right our two countries has barely scratched the surface of hon. Friend agree that, when one looks for concrete what is possible. Did he discuss specific measures for practical steps that might be taken to achieve the wholly increasing trade, and did he persuade Mr Modi to visit desirable goal of increased growth in the global economy, the UK? a very great deal depends on the successful achievement of a comprehensive trade deal between the European The Prime Minister: I had a very good meeting with Union and the United States? As this is one of the few Prime Minister Modi, who got the conference off to a areas on which the Republicans in the United States good start by agreeing to lift India’s block to the Bali agree with the Obama Administration, did he press trade facilitation agreement, which is vital to helping other European leaders to go for rapid progress on drive global growth. On the British-India relationship, agreement at this stage in the short window of opportunity Britain is, I think, the second-largest inward investor in between the mid-term elections being over and the next India, but the right hon. Gentleman is right that more presidential campaign beginning? could be done on trade. We discussed the need for the 41 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 42

EU-India free-trade agreement to get going again and The Prime Minister: We made some very clear promises for structural reform in India to help open up her in our manifesto that we would lift our aid budget to economy and lead to higher growth rates, and I am reach the long-term target of 0.7% of gross national clear that Prime Minister Modi is a man with a clear income. We made that promise, and I think that breaking vision for doing economically for his country what he our promise to the poorest people in the world would not succeeded in doing for Gujarat. be the right thing to do. When I think about some of the problems we face here in our country—whether it be the Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con): I congratulate pressure of asylum seekers or the pressure of immigration my right hon. Friend on some plain speaking on the —I realise that our aid budget is, if not the answer, part European economic outlook, but does he accept that of the answer. If we can solve some of the underlying the poor performance of the eurozone is not the problem, problems of instability in some of these countries— but merely the symptom, and that the problem is the sometimes instability can be caused by the effects of euro itself—still intellectually flawed and politically climate change, making it harder for some countries to dangerous? Does he accept that until eurozone leaders feed their people—I think we are doing the right thing. are willing to de-risk the entire project, not only will it pose a threat to global economic stability, but millions Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): The of young Europeans will find their economic prospects Save Remittance Giving Campaign, which is supported sacrificed on the altar of a political project? by MPs, 120,000 British people and Olympic gold medallist Mo Farah, called for a reduction in remittance costs. I The Prime Minister: My views on the euro are well very much welcome the G20 commitment to reduce it from known: I do not think that Britain should join it. 10% to 5% because remittance makes a big contribution However, there are three steps that all countries should to development, including economic development. Can be taking, whether or not they are in the euro. First, the Prime Minister update us on when the money they should be putting in place plans to deal with fiscal transfer service scheme will be implemented because deficits and put them on a proper, long-term footing; countries such as Somalia are suffering, as there are no secondly, they should be pursuing structural reforms, as banking systems and no effective ways of getting money we have done in this country, to make it easier to start in if banks stop facilities as has happened, so we need and grow businesses—European countries could do urgent action? more in that regard—and thirdly, and crucially, Britain and America have shown that an active monetary policy, The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely delivered by an independent central bank, can make a right that remittances are a critical source of income for real difference. Given the signs of rather staggered poor people in the poorest countries and they really do growth in Europe, I think the European Central Bank help with the reduction of poverty. Action by the G20 has needs to take that action as well. been a success, resulting in the decrease of the G20 average cost from around 10% to 7.5%, but more needs to be Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): This is my first done. Of course the problem she highlights, where opportunity to congratulate Nicola Sturgeon on becoming remittances are particularly difficult for some countries leader of the Scottish National party and Scotland’s such as Somalia, relates to the issues I dealt with in the next First Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for previous question about the need to build capacity in Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) on becoming the deputy these countries, including through honest banks and leader of the SNP, which is a political party now with honest Governments, so that people can get the remittances more members in Scotland than all the other parties in they deserve. the House combined. A majority of G20 members, including the United States of America, have now committed to attending the Sir Hugh Robertson (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con): international conference on the humanitarian consequences The Prime Minister is to be congratulated on the robust of nuclear weapons which will take place in a few weeks line he took with President Putin. Is he able to tell us in Vienna. I ask the Prime Minister to confirm: will the whether there were any discussions with other G20 leaders UK be attending—yes or no? on stemming the flow of funds to Islamic State, particularly from the Gulf region? The Prime Minister: First, I am very happy to congratulate Nicola Sturgeon on her election and The Prime Minister: There were a number of discussions appointment. One thing I noticed about the G20 was around the G20. I talked to President Obama about this that almost every country made a point of saying how issue and at some length with Prime Minister Abbott. I pleased it was that the UK had stayed together. It was a think there is a real commitment to recognise that we theme of unity, whether in discussions with the President are in a fight that affects so many countries. Young of Burma or the President of the USA. On the Vienna people travelling from so many of our countries have conference, I will have to consider the hon. Gentleman’s been radicalised into fighting in this way, and we must question and get back to him. do everything we can to cut off the sources of finance. That means action at the UN, which we will continue to Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Does my take, but if we consider further action is necessary, we right hon. Friend agree with me that one can be a good, should take it. loyal, hard-working, tax-paying Conservative and worry over whether the best way to help the poor of the world Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): In order to compete better is to spend £650 million on a climate fund, taken out of globally, we need to do something about our productivity an aid budget that increased by 28% last year? Does he problems—a subject to which my right hon. Friend the agree that those sort of Conservatives need to be reassured? Leader of the Opposition referred earlier. How does 43 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 44

[Derek Twigg] on the medium and long-term response to the crisis? People need health services, so will he campaign globally having so many people on low pay and in insecure jobs for an international goal of universal health coverage? with falling living standards address that productivity problem? The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. As we look for a replacement for the millennium The Prime Minister: We first need to recognise that development goals, we should bear it in mind that this year has seen the largest fall in unemployment in health provision is key to that. We also need to recognise Britain since records began, and it is a complete fiction that the global response to Ebola was too slow. Ebola to say that all of those jobs are low paid. That is not the could have been put on a downward path much earlier if case. A lot of those jobs are in more skilled professions more effective action had been taken more swiftly. While where the pay levels are higher. On productivity, it is of I do not blame the World Health Organisation, I think course an important challenge for the UK, but I would that we need to look into what immediate resources are say that one hopeful sign is that the increase in business available so that we can get stuck into countries where investment—a key component of GDP—has rapidly these issues arise, and where there are no health services. increased this year and it can lead to an increase in productivity. Mr Andrew Robathan (South Leicestershire) (Con): Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Would it Following the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine, it is not send a very bad signal to President Putin when he is important for the international community to carry a eyeing up the Baltic states if Britain fell below the big stick and to be resolute, steadfast and very firm with NATO recommended minimum of 2% of GDP going Russia. It may be necessary to increase the sanctions on defence? Will the Prime Minister give an undertaking rather than decreasing them. However, no one in the not to do that as long as he is in office? world wishes to see a new cold war. Is there any way in which my right hon. Friend and the international The Prime Minister: We have set out our plans for community can speak softly in pointing out to President this Parliament, and we will have to set out our plans Putin and, indeed, to the Russian people that the west is for the years ahead at the next election. As I said, we no threat to them, and bring Russia back into a more have maintained a £33 billion defence budget—one of stable community, perhaps a community of nations? the top five in the world. The most important message That is where we would all like to be. for the Baltic states is that they are full members of NATO. I think they are very grateful for that when they The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is absolutely see the destabilisation that is taking place in other parts right. We—Britain and the European Union—do not of the world. We need to guarantee to them that being seek a confrontational relationship with Russia. What full members of NATO means just that. we have set up with the EU-Russia discussions and the NATO-Russia Council is a way of having proper discussions John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): and proper relationships with Russia. What has changed Does the need for these measures signal that the United is Russian behaviour in Ukraine. I think that if Russia Kingdom’s budget deficit will take even longer to clear? could genuinely do what it says that it wants to do—recognise that Ukraine is a single political space The Prime Minister: We have set out our plans in and should be respected, and that it does not want a Budget and autumn statements, we have cut the budget frozen conflict—and if it could make those pledges real, deficit by a third, and we will be setting out the figures we could have the relationship of which my right hon. later in the month in the normal way. Friend speaks.

Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): The Inter- Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): governmental Panel on Climate Change has warned of The Prime Minister seemed to be confident that the the terrifying prospect of global warming nearly 5° above EU-US trade deal would not adversely affect the national pre-industrial levels, which would spell not just catastrophic health service, but there are some legitimate concerns. but irreversible climate change. Will the Prime Minister Will he be more precise about what has led him to be so play his part in ensuring that the third great economic certain that that will not happen? bloc in the world, the European Union, is as committed as the United States and China to sealing a global The Prime Minister: What has led me to be so precise climate change deal in Paris next year? about this is the very clear statement by the EU The Prime Minister: To be fair, I think that the Commissioner concerned that it is absolutely within European Union has been the leader in all this. We our gift to leave parts of the public sector without these should note what Britain and other European countries arrangements. I think that many people are raising are doing in terms of the commitment to reduce carbon concerns about the Transatlantic Trade and Investment emissions, and the fact that we have legal frameworks in Partnership which simply do not apply. I think that we, place. There has just been an EU agreement on that. I as elected politicians, should take on the arguments and think that we need other countries to come forward and deal with them one by one. Otherwise we shall face the put on the table measures such as those that we have risk of not receiving the benefits of TTIP, which could already taken. lead to growth and jobs in all our countries. Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): Immediate Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): Given that action on the Ebola crisis is important. I know that the nearly 20% of my working constituents work in Prime Minister will join me in thanking the British people manufacturing, and given our low unemployment rate for their characteristic generosity, but may I press him of 1.8%, I think it is safe to say that Calder Valley is 45 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 46 punching well above its weight in terms of helping the The Prime Minister: Again, on this issue of investor UK economy. How worried need we be about the state dispute mechanisms, we have these in every single current slowdown in the world economy? trade deal we have ever signed, and I think I am right in saying we have not lost a single case. Of course it is right The Prime Minister: Our economy is performing well. that we debate all these issues but, as Members of We have seen growth of 3% this year, a fall in Parliament we sometimes get a barrage of e-mails, that unemployment, the establishment of more businesses, people have signed up to sometimes without fully and good business investment figures. However, I think understanding every part of what they are being asked we should be concerned about the situation in the to sign. People want to spread some fear about this eurozone. According to the most recent statistics, in the thing, and I think we all have a role, as Members of third quarter of 2014 Italy’s economy shrank by 0.1%, Parliament, to try to explain properly why these things Germany’s grew by just 0.1%, and the euro area as a are good for our country. whole grew by 0.2%. Those are very soft and worrying figures. We need to see not just the United States Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): As so many growing, but the European Union—which is one of the other economies are either faltering or declining and engines of the world economy—firing up properly. thus affecting our potential exports, will my right hon. Let me return to the issue of TTIP. It is notable that Friend and the Chancellor of the Exchequer do all they the former EU Trade Commissioner Karel De Gucht can further to reduce business taxes in this country? said this in a BBC interview: “Public services…there is no problem about exemption. The The Prime Minister: What we have said is that we argument is abused in your country for political reasons but it has want to maintain our ambition to have the lowest rate no grounds.” of business tax of the advanced industrial economies. I think it is important that that has been said. We have achieved that under this Government through getting corporation tax down to 20% and I think that is Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): If our economy is a very good calling card for Britain in the world to get performing so well, why has the Budget deficit increased people to come and invest here. We have a 20% tax rate, by over 10% during the course of the last year? but we do believe that it is important that companies pay their tax, so I think it is both a good advert for The Prime Minister: The Budget deficit has fallen. It Britain, but also in the long term a good way of protecting has come down by a third since this Government came and raising our revenue. to office, and we will see the figures at the autumn statement in the normal way, but we should not forget Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I am sure the what we inherited, which was a forecast for a Budget Prime Minister agrees that we should judge the success deficit at 11% of GDP. That was the highest of any of greater transparency in global taxation by how much country anywhere in the world. We will not forget that it benefits those who need it the most—the poorest inheritance, and it is one we are dealing with. countries in the world. He said in his statement that Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): Is £37 billion of extra tax was being paid by big companies. not the danger with the policy of talking loudly but Can he now tell the House how much of that money has carrying a small stick that it eventually gets found out gone to developing countries? by the bullies in the playground? The Prime Minister: I do not have those figures for The Prime Minister: I have great respect for my hon. the hon. Lady. They were figures produced by the Friend, but I just do not understand how it can be OECD at the meeting, but she is completely right that if argued that a top five Defence budget with £33 billion all that happens is that the richest countries of the spent is not a big stick. The fact is we have some of the world agree to exchange tax information with each most capable armed forces anywhere in the world, and other, that will help us but it will not help the poorest. because of the difficult decisions we have taken we are That is why we have to get into these countries and help going to see two new aircraft carriers, the new Type 45 them build their tax authorities and their capacity. That destroyers coming out of our shipyards and the new is why we have not just proposals but actions like tax global combat ship—the frigate. We have already got— inspectors without borders where we actually put the based in my constituency—a superb fleet of the A400Ms capacity into other countries. I want them to benefit now coming in to join the Voyager aircraft and all the from the good work that is being done. Hercules we have. We have, of course, the joint strike fighters coming to back up our extraordinary Typhoon Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): force. Britain has a full set of capabilities, including a Against the background of an uneven and fragile global nuclear deterrent, and I think that is absolutely right, economic recovery, may I congratulate the Prime Minister and we should not talk down the scale of military on a successful G20? I was particularly pleased to see commitment that we have; it is a very important part of that the G20 leaders supported the World Bank Group’s our country. infrastructure facility. Will he tell us what role the UK will play following the launch of the G20’s global Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Given infrastructure initiative and hub? that the Prime Minister announced at the weekend that he wants to put rocket boosters under the TTIP agreement, The Prime Minister: I think this hub can matter will he give a clear yes or no answer as to whether, under because an enormous number of huge infrastructure the agreement, a state or devolved health service could projects need to be built, particularly in the developing be forced to pay for a private company under the world. Those projects could have a transformational investor state dispute mechanism? effect on those countries’ economies as well as helping 47 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 48

[The Prime Minister] Will he consider what more can be done to counter the entirely false depiction of events in Ukraine that is us with our trade, but they often need pump-priming being put out by the Russian media, both inside and and guarantees in order to get going because they will outside Russia? not be financed solely by public sector banks or institutions. The hub will bring together the World Bank, the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely International Monetary Fund and regional investment right. A number of leaders in the Baltic states have said banks such as the European Bank for Reconstruction how damaging it is that so much of their television and Development to try to get those projects going. consists of Russian-backed news channels pumping out British companies and British business will benefit from a completely distorted picture of what is happening. It that, which is why I think this is an important part of is vital that we play our part in putting forward correct global growth. and accurate information, and I have raised this issue with President Obama. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): A lot of people will like what the Prime Minister has said about Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): TTIP and the health service, so what is his objection to The current and former independent reviewers of counter- incorporating an exemption in the treaty and campaigning terrorism legislation are both calling for the relocation with the other countries to ensure that that exemption powers to be brought back. In the light of the Prime happens? Minister’s announcement to the Australian Parliament, will he also make an announcement to this Parliament The Prime Minister: As I said, these are all things that on this matter? Will the relocation powers that his can be discussed and looked at. We should not be Government scrapped be brought back—yes or no? raising fears that our national health service is somehow going to be invaded when it is not. Let me quote the EU The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady will have to wait trade commissioner on this: for the announcement of the anti-terrorism Bill, which, “Public services are always exempted—there is no problem as I say, will be introduced in this House before the end about exemption. The argument is abused in your country for of the month. But it is notable that the independent political reasons but it has no grounds.” reviewer of terrorism legislation, David Anderson, has That is what was said on 13 September 2014. said: “There is no need to put the clock back. The majority of the Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): President Putin has changes introduced by the TPIMs Act have civilised the control order system without making it less effective.” announced large increases in Russia’s armed forces in the past few weeks. As well as protesting about what has That is important, and I think we should seek to proceed happened in Ukraine, did my right hon. Friend ask the on the basis of consensus. G20 NATO members to stress to President Putin that hostile actions against any alliance member would be Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): May I congratulate considered an act of aggression against all 28 members my right hon. Friend on going to such a rough country of the Atlantic alliance and possibly, as such, as an act without taking four warships with him? In all seriousness, of war, as per the NATO charter? Russia has stepped over a red line and the west is talking about sanctions. How long do we go on talking The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend knows these about sanctions? If they do not work, what does the things well. President Putin is well aware that the NATO west then do? alliance has at its heart a clause on collective self-defence. That measure would be triggered if there were an attack The Prime Minister: I do not believe that a military on any NATO member. That is at the heart of our escalation is the answer to this problem. I think the alliance, and it is obviously worth a huge amount to the answer to this problem is a robust, firm and united Baltic states in terms of stability and security. This also response from the countries of the European Union shows how right we were to include those states in the and from the United States to make it absolutely clear NATO alliance. that if Russia persists in this destabilisation, its relationship with Europe, with Britain and with America, in terms of trade and normal contact, will be radically different Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Will in the future from what it has been in the past. I simply the Prime Minister confirm that the Government will do not think that the idea that this cannot work or donate £650 million to the green climate fund? cannot have the effect is right; in the end, Russia needs the European Union and America more than America The Prime Minister: We will make funds available in and the European Union need Russia. We need to make the right way following a pledging conference, but we want that relationship pay, and I think we can, therefore, get to ensure that other countries put down their money. the right result. All too often in the past, Britain has put its money in first and wondered why no one else has contributed. I Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): As the am clear that we want to see other countries stepping up Member responsible for introducing the Debt Relief to the plate. (Developing Countries) Act 2010, I have a long-standing interest in tackling the vulture funds that prey on historical Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): Does my debts, often those of the poorest countries or countries right hon. Friend accept not only that we are facing the in severe economic difficulty. Argentina is one of the threat of a further Russian military invasion of Ukraine latest being preyed upon and pursued. Will the Prime but that we are in the middle of an information war? Minister set out for the House whether he fully supports 49 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 50 the principles in the G20 statement on tackling this Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): One myth issue? Does it show a change in the UK’s position on about the trade deal with America is that it is a global vulture funds, after his Government voted against the stitch-up of big corporations. May I urge the Prime United Nations resolution on sovereign debt restructuring Minister to put his rocket boosters under the huge earlier this year? benefits of this deal for small and medium-sized businesses and for consumers? The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises a very important point, about which there was a long The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. Indeed, discussion at the G20. Of course I support what is in the big businesses already have strong networks and lobbies communiqué—we fully agreed that. The problem we in place to break into other markets, but it is the smaller have is that there is sympathy for countries such as businesses that we need to consider. When they look at Argentina, which have tried to restructure their debt but whether they can export, they see all the difficulties and then have vulture funds taking them to court in other all the bureaucracy involved and sometimes decide against countries and winning judgments that make it almost it. The transatlantic trade and investment partnership impossible for them to proceed and tip them into another could make a particular difference to such enterprises. technical default. The right position to take is not to override contract law and the way these things are dealt Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): In implementing with in courts, because of course our whole system the summit’s call, which said that developments in green depends on that, but to try to find a workaround so that energy will support economic growth, will the Prime countries such as Argentina can get back on a proper Minister concentrate not so much on nuclear, which is footing. always billions over budget and years late, but on the vast resources that this country has in wind, wave and Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): tide. All are green, clean and eternal. If Ebola is going to be beaten, it will have to be beaten in west Africa. However, two things that provide a The Prime Minister: I think we should do both. We disincentive to medical professionals to go and help are need a balanced energy policy that draws our energy the absence of direct flights and the imposition by some from many different sources. I am proud of the fact that countries of quarantine requirements on asymptomatic we have in Britain the largest offshore wind market of patients. What discussions did my right hon. Friend any country anywhere in the world. The rate of investment have at the G20 with other countries on the re-establishment in green technology and green energy has increased of direct flights and on quarantine requirements being under this Government. It is worthwhile looking at the based only on scientific fact? proposals for Swansea, in which the hon. Gentleman takes an interest. There are opportunities in these green The Prime Minister: My hon. and learned Friend technologies, and if they can be made to pay, we should makes an important point. On quarantine, we have said use them. that countries should listen very carefully to their chief medical officers and follow medical advice. That is what Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Given Australia’s we are doing here and we advise others to do the same, success in controlling immigration, did the Prime Minister although, of course, different countries do have slightly pick up any useful tips? different circumstances, because sometimes very long flights are involved. I do not think it is necessary to The Prime Minister: I did discuss that issue with Tony restore direct flights, for instance, between Britain and Abbott, but Australia faces a rather different situation. these countries. It is necessary for health workers to Its focus has been on the problems of people potentially know that there will be both good facilities in country seeking asylum coming quite long distances across the and medical evacuation available. That is what we have Pacific ocean. Interestingly, if we look at immigration made available to our own health workers, and we are more generally, we see that there is quite a high level of able to offer it to other health workers who take part in immigration into Australia. Where there is real common the facilities that we are providing. ground is that both Britain and Australia can hold their heads high and say that we have created successful Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): Which Prime multi-racial democracies where people can come, make Minister showed up for the UK in the negotiations at a home and a contribution and rise to the level that the G20 on climate change—was it the Prime Minister their talents allow. who told the public that he wanted to hug a husky or the Prime Minister who tells his own right-wing Back Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Recognising Benchers that we ought to cut the “green crap”? the economic difficulties faced by the euro area as outlined by the Prime Minister, did he take the opportunity The Prime Minister: It was the Prime Minister who to speak to Mrs Merkel and other EU leaders on the introduced the world’s first green investment bank, matter? In particular, did he raise the possibility of a which is now being admired and potentially copied change of direction as recommended by the International around the world; it was the Prime Minister who supported Monetary Fund and other bodies? and helped to put on the table the legislation that made a big difference in this country and that is delivering The Prime Minister: There was a good discussion cuts in carbon emission; and it was the Prime Minister about what is happening in the eurozone. The European who has restarted the nuclear programme, by going Central Bank is independent and cannot be given political ahead with Hinkley Point C, after 13 years of a Labour direction in any way, but there is a growing global Government who talked and talked about nuclear power consensus that an active monetary policy is one part of but never did anything about it. a successful growth policy in the aftermath of a very 51 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 52

[The Prime Minister] is one of the key ways of ensuring that some of the poorest people can benefit from the resources their severe crash and financial squeeze. The more widely countries have. that becomes understood, the easier it will be for the ECB to act. Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): G20 countries have agreed to set out their post-2020 policies Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): It has on climate change ahead of next year’s Paris conference been reported that there is a risk that money given to on climate change. Does the Prime Minister agree that charities can end up in terrorists’ hands, helping them the UK’s position in leading that conference would be carry out their threats, some of which have been made stronger if he adopted a 2030 energy decarbonisation clear recently. Will the Prime Minister ensure that the target now? Charity Commission, which is led by the excellent William Shawcross, has the powers and resources that it needs to The Prime Minister: I do not think that is necessary. deal with that problem? We, along with the rest of the European Union, have adopted robust measures to cut carbon, but I believe The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely that the right policy is to cut carbon at the lowest cost. right to raise that matter. There is a problem with some Signing up to a complete decarbonisation target before organisations using their charitable status to support we know that measures such as carbon capture and extremism or the extremist narrative. There are two storage will work would be the height of irresponsibility, things we need to do here, which we have been looking and politicians who propose this, like the hon. Gentleman, at through the extremist taskforce: one is to help need to be honest with the public. If we cannot answer organisations that might need to take on lawyers or the question about where the cheap energy will come legal advice to throw extremists out of their organisations; from, total decarbonisation will put money on people’s and the second is to ensure that the Charity Commission bills. has the resources and the teeth that it needs, including possibly new legal powers, to take action, too. Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Foreign nationals who are major funders of terrorism are on the UK sanctions list, but the House of Commons Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): If Library has confirmed that they are not automatically there is another global downturn, will the Prime Minister’s on the UK travel ban list. Is the Prime Minister aware experience lead him to conclude that a fresh round of of any individual on the UK sanctions list having spending cuts is the best way forward? travelled to the UK during this Parliament?

The Prime Minister: One part of responding to these The Prime Minister: I am not aware of any, but I shall very difficult events is to ensure that one has a clear and have to go away and look carefully at the point my hon. sound fiscal policy, and that has involved making reductions Friend makes. He has been making a series of extremely in public spending. I think we should make it clear to worthwhile interventions on this subject. For instance, members of the public that after the next election there we should ensure that we act consistently with partners will be further reductions in spending and that they at the UN to list and put sanctions on individuals, but need to happen as part of a long-term economic plan. the point he makes about ensuring that the people we We have started to set out the steps we are going to take, sanction are also on travel bans is very good, and I will and it is important that we do so because the alternative look into it and write to him. of simply putting up taxes would destroy the recovery that is now gathering pace. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Further to the Prime Minister’s point about the progress on corporate tax Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I commend the avoidance, he can acknowledge that many poor countries Prime Minister’s leadership on international tax are unable to sign up for automatic exchange of information. transparency and his earlier answer on the extractives Will his Government consider offering bilateral pilots industry transparency initiative. Let me draw his attention to some of those countries, and will they also do a to the recent inquiry by the Business, Innovation and spill-over analysis, as requested by the OECD and Skills Committee into the extractive industries, which carried out by the Irish and Dutch Governments, of the found that the previous Government’s launch of the implications of the tax regime here for those poor EITI but refusal to have Britain sign up to it discouraged countries? Would such an analysis consider the controlled many of the developing countries that would have benefited foreign companies rules put in place by this Government, most from signing up. Since he has now reversed that policy which are taking money away from poor Exchequers? and signed the UK up to the EITI, may I recommend that he take up the Select Committee’s recommendation The Prime Minister: Where I would seek common that the UK should become a beacon of best practice cause with the hon. Gentleman is on the idea that poorer and promote it using our soft power around the world? countries are often unable to take part in the tax exchange because they do not have the capacity to process the The Prime Minister: I will certainly look at that information and use it to raise funds. That is why report. I am convinced that it was the right thing to do. initiatives such as tax inspectors without borders and It is no good preaching to others about transparency putting resources into these countries to help with their unless we are prepared to put it in place ourselves, tax regimes are important. I do not agree that what we which is why I reversed the policy we inherited. Many have done to attract foreign companies is irresponsible. countries have discovered mineral wealth but found it to We charge our taxes properly, and it is good that some be a curse rather than a blessing, and greater transparency practices that were—let me put it this way—questionable, 53 G2017 NOVEMBER 2014 G20 54 such as the so-called double Irish scheme, have been by its Finance Minister. The only real discussion that taken away. Low tax rates and the proper application of Argentina proposed at the G20 was on the issue of those tax rates are the prize we should be looking for. vulture funds, the fact that decisions in US courts have triggered a technical default in Argentina, and its problems Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): with these funds. That was the issue under discussion. The easiest way for people to travel to or from our country to participate in terrorism is obviously by plane, Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): ISIS is opposed so will my right hon. Friend explain what penalties to our way of life and hates everything that Britain airlines would face if they failed to comply with our stands for. Given that British jihadists are aiding and measures, such as no-fly lists, which play a key role in abetting the Queen’s enemies in Syria and Iraq, and that keeping our country safe? we have the appalling scenario of a British citizen beheading other British citizens and the citizens of our The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good allies on international television, is it not time that we point. The main penalty that airlines will face if they do recognised that this is worse than murder or terrorism, not comply with no-fly lists, or with the screening and and that British jihadists should be prosecuted for security measures that we insist on, is not being able to treason? fly to the UK. It is not a series of fines that we are looking at, but a prohibition on their flights unless they The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree with my hon. meet these tougher criteria. Friend: that sight, and the fact that people who were born, brought up, and educated in our country have David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): What assessment been radicalised in this way and are murdering other has my right hon. Friend made of the UK’s readiness to British citizens in the deserts of Syria, makes me sick to face possible future international economic instability? the stomach. It is absolutely appalling that this is happening. How does it compare with the situation in 2008? It is not only the full force of the law that these people should face; they should also recognise that when they The Prime Minister: The point I would make is that take up arms in this way in another country, they to cope with instability, a country needs a long-term become enemies of the state. With our allies, we should plan to get its deficit under control, and to live within its do everything that we can to stop them carrying out means. That is absolutely vital, and that is why the work their barbarity. that we have been doing for the last four and a half years, and will continue to do in the future, is so Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I would like important. to thank the Prime Minister on behalf of the whole House, I am sure, for coming to update us. He must be a Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): In the past, I have bit tired. I understand that President Putin, on the other fortunately been granted an Adjournment debate on hand, decided to leave the summit early on the grounds G20 membership, in which I questioned the validity of that he was tired and needed to catch up on his beauty Argentina’s membership of the organisation under the sleep. Others say that he left because the Prime Minister Kirchner regime. Did the Argentine representation at stood up to him, and that, like most bullies, he ran away. the Brisbane conference make any approaches to other Was President Putin looking tired at the summit? members of the G20, or to the International Monetary Fund or the World Bank, for funding? The Prime Minister: I am not aware of exactly why President Putin left early, or what the circumstances The Prime Minister: In terms of Argentine representation, were. My experience of these international meetings is Mrs Kirchner, the President, was not there because she that it is very important to stay right until the end, in is recovering from an operation. Argentina was represented case something gets agreed that you do not agree with. 55 17 NOVEMBER 2014 Avian Influenza 56

Avian Influenza keeping poultry practises good biosecurity, is vigilant for any signs of disease and seeks prompt advice from their vet. 5.13 pm We are never complacent about such an important issue, and we have a strong track record of controlling The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural and eliminating outbreaks of avian flu in the UK. We Affairs (Elizabeth Truss): The chief veterinary officer are working closely with operational partners, devolved has confirmed a case of avian flu at a duck breeding Administration colleagues and the industry to deal farm in East Yorkshire. We have taken immediate and robust effectively with this outbreak. I will keep the House action to control this outbreak and to prevent any updated on further developments. I commend this statement potential spread of infection. My Department, which is to the House. responsible for animal and plant health, is working closely with Public Health England. which is responsible for human health, and the Food Standards Agency, 5.18 pm which is responsible for food safety. Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I thank The Animal and Plant Health Agency laboratory at the Secretary of State for an advance copy of her Weybridge—an internationally recognised avian influenza statement and, in particular, for the briefing I received reference laboratory—has analysed samples from the from her officials this morning. She is right to bring the farm and identified the presence of highly pathogenic matter to the House at the earliest opportunity, and I H5 avian flu. They have ruled out H5N1, the virus that commend her for doing so. can cause severe disease in people who are infected Avian flu is a serious contagious viral disease in through close contact with infected birds. Further tests animals with a potential for some strains to infect are being run to identify the exact strain of the disease. humans, with all the health implications of that. Fortunately, Importantly, the chief medical officer and Public Health human infection is rare, and, thankfully, the Government England have confirmed that the risk to public health is have already confirmed that the strain of avian flu very low. discovered in ducks on Nafferton farm in Yorkshire is It is important to note that this disease is highly not H5N1, which is one of the strains that impacts pathogenic for birds, but the Food Standards Agency humans, though it is believed to be an H5 strain. has advised that avian flu does not pose a food safety When is it likely that the Department will be able to risk. Protecting animal health is one of the top priorities confirm definitively what strain we are dealing with? for my Department and we have extensive and rigorous The Secretary of State will know that outbreaks of processes to identify and tackle disease outbreaks. As H5N8 have been confirmed in Germany and Holland part of this approach I chair a monthly biosecurity during the past two weeks. There may be some connection meeting and have reinforced the importance of monitoring between these outbreaks, so what steps is she taking to and planning for likely risk. ensure full co-operation between the veterinary authorities We have tried and tested procedures for dealing with dealing with the outbreaks there, particularly if, in due such outbreaks and our experts immediately responded course, it is confirmed that the outbreak she is dealing when suspicions of disease emerged. I would like to take with is of the same serotype? a moment to update the House on the sequence of events I understand that the authorities in the Netherlands over recent days and the steps we are taking. A possible case have introduced a three-day nationwide ban on the of a notifiable disease on the farm was reported by a transportation of poultry and eggs, yet, as I understand private vet on the morning of Friday 14 November. A it from what the Secretary of State said, even in the Government vet visited the premises that day and submitted 10 km restriction zone in place around the affected farm samples to the Weybridge laboratory, and the premises in Yorkshire, the measure she has announced bans were immediately placed under restriction. movement of unlicensed poultry and products. Is she A series of tests was undertaken during the weekend therefore allowing the movement of licensed poultry and testing confirmed the presence of notifiable H5 avian and poultry products? Will she give us a bit more flu on Saturday evening. Further tests ruled out H5N1. information about what is and is not allowed within the As the test results were confirmed, the chief veterinary zone? How sure is she that any potentially infected officer, Nigel Gibbens, called an amber emergency meeting poultry has not been, and will not be, moved out of the to assess the situation, and as a result declared a disease zone prior to inspections, and that it will not enter the outbreak. At that point the national disease control human food chain? What steps has she taken to ensure centre was established and the full operational response that there is no human exposure to the virus on Nafferton was initiated, including informing the public and notifying farm itself, either among farm staff or among the staff key industry bodies. being sent to deal with the outbreak? At the same time a 10 km restriction zone was imposed The Secretary of State does not yet quite know what around the farm. This zone bans movements of all the source of the outbreak is. Would not this information unlicensed poultry and products within the area. Bird impact on what measures ought to be taken to contain gatherings such as shows and exhibitions are banned it, and should she not therefore operate on the precautionary and game birds cannot be released. The 6,000 ducks on principle until she is clear what the strain is? There is the farm where the disease has been identified are to be clearly a possibility that the source is wild birds—a culled. Investigations are ongoing to discover the origin Royal Society for the Protection of Birds reserve is of the outbreak, including whether it is linked to recent nearby. What steps is she taking to initiate sampling of cases found in the Netherlands and Germany. This wild bird populations? What is she doing to ensure that is detailed work to ensure we have identified all possible landowners and members of the public watch out for sources of the outbreak. It is essential that anyone signs of the disease in such populations? 57 Avian Influenza17 NOVEMBER 2014 Avian Influenza 58

The Secretary of State said that the birds on the farm people on the farm that has been affected, and other are to be culled, but this has not happened yet. When is local farms also have those protections in place. However, it to be done? For how long does she expect the restrictions as I have said, the risk to human health is very low. That she has announced to be in place if the outbreak is view has been supported not just by Public Health confined to just one farm? What is she doing to get England but by the chief medical officer. information out to members of the public who keep a We are working with our European counterparts. few chickens or ducks within the affected areas? Our organisation, APHA—the Animal and Plant Health At this important time for the industry, and for Agency—is closely co-operating with those in the consumers, what is her advice to consumers considering Netherlands and Germany to make sure that we are ordering their Christmas birds, whether ducks, geese or fully updated on what is happening. turkeys? We have heard that the FSA has been clear We are at the early stages of examining what strain about this, but what is the Secretary of State’s advice? this is. We have ruled out H5N1 but we are looking Does she expect trade impacts on exports to the European closely at what strain it is. That is the work of the chief Union and around the world? What steps is her Department veterinary officer and we will know more in the coming taking to help industry to deal with any concerns? We days. Detailed work needs to be done so we are continuing know from recent history that long and complex supply to do that. chains have the ability to accelerate the spread of food We have seen a good co-ordinated effort from all problems across international borders before being identified kinds of organisations, including the industry, the National and tackled, so what assurance can she give to UK Farmers Union, the police and the Animal and Plant consumers that contaminated poultry and poultry products Health Agency, and we need to keep that up to make did not enter the European supply chain before this sure we stamp out this disease. All the experience of latest outbreak was identified? animal disease shows that it is important to take early Finally, can the Secretary of State assure us that she and swift action and make sure it is stamped out. has all the necessary resources to prevent the spread of this disease, including the surveillance of wild birds and Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): I am sure the the testing, monitoring and culling of infected birds, whole House is grateful to the Minister for making this and to enable any necessary communication with the statement today. Will she confirm that resources will industry and the wider public? not be an issue, and that whatever needs to be done will be done to eradicate this outbreak? Does she agree that Elizabeth Truss: I thank the hon. Lady for her response. in due course there should be a review of what has I am sure she will agree that very swift action has happened so that lessons can be learned? Will she look already been taken from the time of the original notification at the question of compensation for those whose businesses on Friday. We have already seen the testing taking place have been adversely affected? For the present, will she and the imposition of the restriction zone within which confirm that no holidaymaker intending to come to the no movements are allowed. East Riding need change their plans, and that East Yorkshire remains open for business? On the hon. Lady’s specific question, people will be able to do that only if they are issued with a specific Elizabeth Truss: I can assure my right hon. Friend licence, and that will follow testing. We have set up a that East Yorkshire is most definitely open for business. national control centre to deal with this disease. A local The restrictions that we have put in place are specifically operation will be run out of Beverley to make sure that on the poultry industry. Compensation will be paid to appropriate resources are put in place for surveillance in farmers. We will do that in a robust fashion that is the local area. properly audited, learning lessons from previous disease We are taking this extremely seriously. One of my outbreaks. My right hon. Friend is right that it is priorities as Secretary of State is to make sure that we important that we see the value to the wider £210 billion are protected from animal and plant disease. One of the rural economy. Food and farming are important, which things we have done since 2010 is to protect the number is why we are dealing with this disease outbreak as of veterinary staff within our organisations to make quickly and as effectively as possible, but we must also sure that we have the resources to deal with disease see the wider benefits to the rural economy. outbreaks such as this. We have a good record, but we cannot be complacent. That is why earlier this year the Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I thank Government released a new strategy on dealing with the Secretary of State for her statement. She referred biosecurity risks and notifiable diseases. to work with operational partners and devolved Administrations. Will she outline the nature of those The hon. Lady asked a number of questions. First, let discussions with devolved Administrations, particularly us be clear that the Food Standards Agency has said the Northern Ireland Executive, so that the local poultry that this does not pose a risk to food safety for UK industry in Northern Ireland can be protected and consumers. That is a very important point. The chicken public health safeguarded? and turkey that people eat continues to be safe. This is a live animal disease. It is very important that we take Elizabeth Truss: I can assure the hon. Lady that we steps to deal with it as soon as we are able, and that is had a meeting today, which was part of our national what we have done. It poses a risk to the bird population, disease control meetings, in which the Northern Ireland but it is an animal disease, not a human disease. I want Executive was involved, as were the relevant authorities to make that point very clearly. from Scotland and Wales. It is very important that we The hon. Lady asked about protection for people communicate properly with the devolved Administrations, working in farms in the area. As regards the risk to and that is what we are doing, so they are fully involved human health, we have put in place protections for the in all our operations. 59 Avian Influenza17 NOVEMBER 2014 Avian Influenza 60

Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): The Corby and Many of my constituents work in egg production and east Northamptonshire food industry and farming industry, poultry. Earlier today I was contacted by Elliott Eggs of which is very significant, will be very concerned about Bewholme just outside the exclusion zone, which is the effects of this announcement on their already fragile already struggling to meet the supply demands of its industries, in the wake of events in recent years. On supermarket customers. How will my right hon. Friend resources, the best thing to do is to focus tightly on the strike the balance between effective eradication of the farm in question, as the Secretary of State has said. On problem and continued production, particularly in this the transportation of the carcases—she indicated that festive season? that will happen in 10 days’ time—will real precautions be taken regarding escorts and ensuring that the Elizabeth Truss: As my hon. Friend points out, the transportation is safe? poultry and egg industry is a vital part of our food and farming sector, which contributes £100 billion to the Elizabeth Truss: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely economy. My answer to him is that the best way for us right. We are taking a very close interest in what is to do that is to deal with this as swiftly as possible and happening in the local area. That is why we have put in make sure that we eradicate the disease. That is why we place an operating base in Beverley, very close to the have taken swift action. As I mentioned, the disease was local area, so that we can make sure that we deal with notified to us on Friday. On that day Government vets any issues there. The hon. Gentleman also makes a visited the farm and an immediate restriction was placed good point about the transportation of any culled on the farm. As soon as the analysis came back from ducks. We will make sure that they are properly protected the tests, the chief veterinary officer placed a restriction so that we can dispose of them safely. on a 10 km zone, so we are taking swift action to deal with the problem as soon as possible. All the previous Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): disease outbreaks have shown that rapid, concerted, Bearing in mind that Yorkshire is one of the largest and robust action needs to be taken. most intensive poultry producers, may I commend my right hon. Friend, the veterinary service and, indeed, Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): The Secretary the responsible producers on the action they have taken? of State has said that the risk to public health is very Mindful of the fact that the chief veterinary officer is low, but what discussions has she had with the Secretary on record as saying that the British case may be linked of State for Health regarding the avian flu outbreak and to European outbreaks or, alternatively, that it may be this year’s winter flu jab campaign? found in migratory birds, will the Secretary of State make it a top priority of all the services to find out the Elizabeth Truss: The chief veterinary officer and the source of the infection? Will she also send out a clear chief medical officer have been working together very message that British poultry is still safe to eat after the closely since the disease was identified. The chief medical bird has been cooked and that, on biosecurity and those officer and Public Health England have said that, based trying to cover the story, it is absolutely essential that on the evidence they have received from the tests, there those trying to contain this very infectious disease are is a very low risk to public health. We will continue to given the right of access? work with those organisations. Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): I say that poultry is safe to eat. The Food Standards congratulate my right hon. Friend on the swift, Agency has confirmed that avian flu does not pose a proportionate and comprehensive action she has taken, food safety risk for UK consumers. We are very clear but warn again that the resilience and capacity of our about that message. My hon. Friend is also right to say animal health precautions must be protected against that Yorkshire is a key county for food production. I future depredation by the Treasury. Will my right hon. recently visited Yorkshire to see many of the different Friend look again at how she can get the message across aspects of food production there. We will make sure to the backyard poultry keepers, who are the most that people get the message about biosecurity so that we difficult to reach—they do not read the trade newspapers can ensure that proper protection is in place. Swift or have veterinary supervision at all times—about the action is the most important aspect. symptoms they should be looking for in their birds so that they can report them? Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): What contingency plans does the Secretary of State have with Elizabeth Truss: First, I agree with my hon. Friend regard to any threats to jobs in the supply chain? about the importance of animal and plant health. That is one of my key priorities as Secretary of State. As I Elizabeth Truss: The most immediate thing that we have said, we have protected the number of vets in our are focusing on—bear in mind that we were initially organisation, despite the fact that we have had to make notified about the issue on Friday—is trying to nip the savings across the Department for Environment, Food disease in the bud to make sure that it has the minimum and Rural Affairs since 2010. As soon as we imposed possible impact. That is why it is important to take very the restriction zone, we put out the message in the urgent action. media, as well as through many organisations such as the National Farmers Union and veterinary organisations. Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): We want to get the message across to those members of From what the Secretary of State says, the responses of the public who keep poultry that biosecurity measures the farmer, the vet and the agencies were exemplary in are very important and that if they have any concerns both their swiftness and decisiveness. The suggestion they should speak to their vet. that this outbreak has come from wild bird infection 61 Avian Influenza17 NOVEMBER 2014 Avian Influenza 62 reminds us that east Yorkshire is part of a migratory connection is with the outbreak in east Yorkshire. He is network, as is much of the rest of the United Kingdom. absolutely right that that vital facility is an important What will she do to ensure that there is clear surveillance part of our armoury in dealing with animal disease. of areas subject to bird migration so that this cannot happen again? Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): The vet who turned up to the farm on Friday was clearly on the Elizabeth Truss: My right hon. Friend is absolutely ball, and dealt with this outbreak efficiently and quickly. right. That is one of the possibilities that the chief What more can we and the Department do to help the veterinary officer is exploring. He is meeting the veterinary profession to ensure that everyone who goes ornithological expert panel to look specifically at the out to farms is looking out for the symptoms of this migratory patterns of wild birds, which might be one of disease? the factors. It is still early days, and we do not fully know the cause. His job is to investigate that, and he is Elizabeth Truss: The chief veterinary officer has been working very hard on it. very active in working with the veterinary profession and the British Veterinary Association to make sure Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): that we get such messages across. A lot of information Industry support and vigilance will be key to any success is available on our gov.uk website for people to access. in implementing the restrictions, so what discussions is Getting the message across is very important, and vets the Secretary of State’s Department having with trade have a very important role to play. bodies such as the NFU, the British Egg Industry Council or the British Poultry Council? Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): Calder Valley has many smallholdings, as the Secretary of State knows. Elizabeth Truss: The Under-Secretary of State for What advice would she give to smallholders about who Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend would be the first point of contact if they suspect a the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), problem in the coming weeks? who has responsibility for farming, has spoken to the British Poultry Council and the British Egg Industry Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is right: there are Council, and I have spoken to the NFU. Those many smallholders, not just in Calder Valley but right organisations are represented in our national disease across the country, and if people have concerns or control centre to ensure full industry inclusion in what suspicions, they should speak to their vet. That is the we are doing and to ensure we can get our messages best course of action. across properly. Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): While public Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): We are entering a health is rightly uppermost in our minds at the moment, very important time of the year for the poultry industry. this is, as my right hon. Friend has said, a live poultry What will the Secretary of State continue to do with her disease. Live poultry exports are worth a significant DEFRA colleagues to get out the strong message that proportion of the £3.3 billion that poultry generates for although we have to tackle the outbreak head-on, poultry UK GDP.Has she made any further progress in including and eggs are still perfectly safe to eat? We still have the the concept of compartmentalisation and export health best animal welfare in this country, and such strong certificates, and negotiated with our export markets to animal welfare will help us in tackling this disease. protect this valuable industry?

Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right Elizabeth Truss: The most important thing we can do that this outbreak does not pose a food safety risk for to protect exports is ensure that we deal with the disease UK consumers. The Food Standards Agency has been as swiftly and robustly as possible. That is what will help absolutely clear about that. We have very high welfare protect our export markets, which, as my hon. Friend standards in this country, and we have a successful, rightly says, are very important—indeed, we are looking competitive poultry industry. We are being very open to expand them. and taking firm and decisive action so that we can stamp the disease out in the early stages. Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): May I also congratulate the Secretary of State and her Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I team on taking swift and decisive action in what is congratulate the Secretary of State and DEFRA on potentially a difficult situation? This is the busiest season, maintaining the reference laboratory at Weybridge, which and in Chesham and Amersham there are some marvellous meant that she could very rapidly rule out the possibility Aylesbury duck breeders who also produce excellent that the H5N1 strain was responsible. What role will turkeys for the Christmas season. Can the Secretary of Weybridge continue to play in a worldwide observatory State assure me that she will put out regular bulletins on this important disease? Knowing where each strain and information—perhaps even send them to Members is active may help in fighting the disease in future. who have raised questions in the House—so that we can get those across to our constituents? Will she do absolutely Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to everything to maintain consumer confidence at this say that our facilities at Weybridge are world class. We critical time for many businesses across the country? have world-class experts on avian influenza, which is very important in being able to deal with this disease. Elizabeth Truss: We are working closely with the They are discussing the outbreak with their counterparts Department of Health, which is represented in the Chamber in other countries, because there have been outbreaks this afternoon, as well as with the Food Standards elsewhere. At this stage, we do not know what the Agency and Public Health England, to get the message 63 Avian Influenza 17 NOVEMBER 2014 64

[Elizabeth Truss] Points of Order across to consumers that there is no food safety risk to 5.44 pm British poultry. My right hon. Friend is right to say that this industry is important. That is why it is important to Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): On a point of be open about the disease and the way we are dealing order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for a with it, and to take swift, effective action. Labour MP to have joked about appalling death threats made against a female MP on Remembrance Sunday? Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): Given the proximity Would it be in order for that colleague to come to the of the wild bird sanctuary to the area of contamination, House immediately and apologise to you, Madam Deputy does the Secretary of State feel that the exclusion zone Speaker, and also to the Minister for Employment, my of six miles is enough? right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey)? Elizabeth Truss: I thank my hon. Friend for the question about the exclusion zone. Earlier this year our Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): I Department set out a biosecurity strategy on notifiable am sure that the hon. Lady will have notified the hon. diseases, and the 10 km exclusion zone was deemed to Member to whom she is referring. As she knows—difficult be a reasonable level to deliver the right amount of as it is to chair the Chamber—the Chair is not responsible protection. The chief veterinary officer will be carrying for what Members say outside this place or for interpreting out further work and investigating how the disease the spirit in which any comment may have been made. emerged, and following that work he will continue to For that I am grateful, given the point that the hon. work on our policy. Lady has made.

Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Further to the question John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Further from my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker— and Howden (Mr Davis), may I ask the Secretary of State whether local birds such as robins, sparrows, Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have not finished, thrushes and blackbirds could carry avian flu away Mr McDonnell. from the area? I was going to suggest that perhaps such matters are better sorted out between Members over a cup of tea, Elizabeth Truss: The chief veterinary officer has been but I understand that we now have another point of clear that we do not know the precise causes of the order. I hope that your point of order is further to this disease and where it has emerged from, and we will be point of order, Mr McDonnell. undertaking that work over the coming weeks. John McDonnell: Further to that point of order, Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I understand Madam Deputy Speaker. May I thank the hon. Member from the statement that this case was found on a duck- for Stourbridge (Margot James) for notifying me that breeding farm. Do we know whether it was a duck or she intended to raise this matter today? I thank her for ducks that were affected, as opposed to some other raising it as it allows me the opportunity to put the form of poultry? As the Secretary of State addresses the matter straight. Various allegations have been made. House, is it the case that no recorded cases of avian flu Let me make it clear: I have never called for any harm to in either a chicken or a turkey have been presented to be done to any Member of this House or anyone else. I her? have reported statements that were made at a public meeting in the Wirral constituency. I did not agree with Elizabeth Truss: My understanding and the advice I them, but I reported them. have received from the chief veterinary officer is that I have no doubt that the hon. Lady is sincere in this, only ducks were affected in this case. but she should be aware that what we witnessed last week was a choreographed exercise between the Daily Mail and Conservative central office to take a remark I made on the Sunday and publish it on the Thursday in order to detract from the speech made by the leader of the Labour party. If the hon. Lady is concerned, as I am, about women’s issues, she should join me in voting against the closure of women’s refuges and the charges— [Interruption.]

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I think that proves my point. Remarks made outside the Chamber should be settled between Members: it is not a matter for this House—

John McDonnell: Further to that point of order—

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have not finished speaking yet, Mr McDonnell. As far as I am concerned, that closes the matter. The two Members should sort it out themselves: it is not a matter for me. 65 Points of Order 17 NOVEMBER 2014 66

John McDonnell: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Childcare Payments Bill Speaker. I just want to say that I am happy with the Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill recommendation to have a cup of tea. Committee Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has made an offer, but whether the hon. Lady wants to take it up must be between them. We must move on because New Clause 1 it is not for the Chair to referee between Members outside the Chamber. PROPOSALS RELATING TO THREE AND FOUR YEAR OLDS ‘(1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall within three months of this Act coming into force lay a report before the House of Commons setting out— (a) an assessment of the benefits of top-up payments to people responsible for a child or children aged three to four years since the Act came into force; and (b) an assessment of those benefits in addition to the likely benefits of funding 25 hours per week free childcare for working persons responsible for a child or children aged three and four.”—(Catherine McKinnell.) Brought up, and read the First time.

5.48 pm Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 2 in clause 1, page 2, line 4, at end insert— ‘( ) The amount of the top-up payment is 66.66 per cent. of the amount of the qualifying payment where the qualifying child is a disabled child.” Amendment 1 in clause 14, page 8, line 42, at end add— ‘(3) A child is a qualifying child for the purposes of the Act until the last day of the week in which falls on the 1 September following the child’s eleventh birthday (or eighteenth birthday in the case of a disabled child).”

Catherine McKinnell: New clause 1 stands in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern), whom I wish to congratulate on her new role. It calls on the Government to consider the necessary help that hundreds of thousands of parents of three to four-year-olds need now to cover the ever-rising costs of child care. Before I elaborate on the new clause further, I wish to reiterate a point that the Opposition have stressed throughout proceedings on the Bill. We welcome any new investment in child care and, in particular, any extra support for hard-pressed parents and families up and down the country who are struggling to juggle work and family life. It is worth remembering because, after all, we are the party which, in government, pioneered investment in early years. The principle that every child matters was at the centre of the Labour Government’s work across all Departments. We are the party that, in government, made no apology for focusing our efforts on, and redirecting any available support to, the children and families who needed our help the most. We are the party that, in government, made it its business to tackle disadvantage and to improve the life chances of every single child from the earliest possible age to give them the best possible start in life. 67 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 68

Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op): I agree with the Far from stepping in, they have pulled the rug from case my hon. Friend is making. Does she share my under the feet of many families. Any extra help for concern about the closure across the country of Sure parents struggling with the cost of child care is clearly Start centres, which were a key part of that commitment to be welcomed. However, not only is the Bill too little to support children and families, including the Raunds too late for hundreds of thousands of families, we are Sure Start centre in my constituency, which the Tory disappointed that the Government have so far refused county council is now going to close? to consider that additional support could be offered to families right now. That is why we have tabled new Catherine McKinnell: My hon. Friend makes a very clause 1. valuable point and I was just about to come to that. We are the party of Sure Start and the thousands of Sure Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Does Start centres that existed in 2010. It is not specifically my hon. Friend agree that we can see the Government’s relevant to this debate, but we could not allow it to pass attitude to child care with their closure of more than without mentioning the very deep concern up and down 400 Sure Start centres? the country about the future of our Sure Start centres. There are concerns, which were made abundantly Catherine McKinnell: Up and down the country, there clear by a number of witnesses in Committee last month, is deep concern about the disappearing Sure Start services. that the Bill does not go anywhere near far enough to We know that the worst is yet to come when we look at provide the support that thousands of parents and families the dire straits in which many local authorities find desperately need right now. They need that support themselves and the difficult decisions that many are now, not in 12 months’ time, which is why we tabled new having to make about their Sure Start services. My hon. clause 1. Based on the Family and Childcare Trust’s Friend makes a very good point: that does sum up the annual survey, we know that child care costs have risen Government’s attitude to support for children and families. five times faster than wages since 2010, at a time when They simply wash their hands of the issue whenever it is wages have lagged behind prices, leaving people £1,600 raised in this House. a year worse off on average. This support is even more We tabled new clause 1 because we want to compel vital when we see how much parents have lost out as a the Government to explore the effectiveness of extending result of the Government’s choices: the decisions to cut the free entitlement for three and four-year-olds when tax credits, child benefit and maternity pay, and to close both parents are in work. The first part of new clause 1 thousands of Sure Start centres. seeks to understand what support the current proposals will provide to the parents who need it most. The free As we saw and read in the news yesterday, research entitlement introduced under the Labour Government, from the London School of Economics and the Institute which happily has been continued under this Government, for Social and Economic Research at the university of makes a real difference to hard-pressed families. The simple Essex shows clearly how the burden of austerity under truth is that, months after the Bill was first published this Government has fallen most heavily on those with and introduced, we are still none the wiser about exactly lower incomes. The research found that the Government’s how many parents will be better off as a result of the tax and benefit changes have seen the poorest lose about top-up payments, or, crucially, by how much. 3% of their incomes, while the richest half of the country have actually seen their incomes increase by 1% to 2%. That stands in marked contrast to our plans to extend That blows away the Government’s claims from the the free entitlement for three and four-year-olds, which start that we are somehow all in this together. The will be worth £40 a week, or £1,500 a year, to about half research highlighted the fact that families with children a million children. We know from the Government’s have fared worst of all, which confirms our worst fears. impact assessment that of those families who will be Single parent families, in particular, have lost far more newly eligible for support under the Bill—those who are through cuts to tax credits and other support than they self-employed, or those whose employers do not currently may have gained through any tax changes, proving that offer employer supported childcare vouchers—the average the Government have given with one hand but taken benefit will be about £600 a year. Clearly, that is far away far more with the other—so much for being the lower than the £2,000 per child that the Government most family-friendly country. Families have lost out on have been touting ever since they announced the policy up to £1,500 a year due to changes to tax credits alone. for top-up payments in March. Tax credits are a vital part of income for many working It is worth remembering that some 520,000 families parents, especially those on the most modest incomes. currently benefit from ESC vouchers. The Government’s When we look at all the tax and benefit changes since impact assessment sets out a number of case studies 2010, including the Government’s much lauded and where families might be better off or, indeed, worse off touted personal allowance increases, we see that families under the new top-up payments. The impact assessment have clearly been hit hardest of all, and that will remain suggests that families can retain their ESC vouchers if the case right up to the general election. A family with they wish, but goes on to list a whole range of caveats both parents in work will be about £2,073 a year worse relating to whether parents will be able to continue to off and a family with a single parent in work will be qualify, whether they would be better off remaining about £1,300 a year worse off. Despite the Conservatives’ under the current voucher scheme, or whether the new claim of creating the most family-friendly country and top-up scheme might be better for them. the Liberal Democrats’ supposed belief that families Clauses 62 and 63 seek to wind down the ESC should get the support they need to thrive, the Government scheme over the next few years, closing it to new entrants. have not been family friendly and they have not stepped Presumably, ESC vouchers will eventually vanish completely. in to provide families with the help they so desperately If a parent changes jobs or if their employer stops need to get to grips with the soaring costs of child care. offering vouchers—this could well happen, as voucher 69 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 70 providers are set to see the majority of their business The Institute for Public Policy Research and the disappear—they will have no choice but to switch to Resolution Foundation have pointed to Australia and top-up payments, leaving many worse off. highlighted that demand-led subsidies, such as top-up We heard evidence from a wide range of witnesses payments, on their own, with no additional safeguards in Committee last month who cited the Resolution in place, only lead to even greater child care price inflation Foundation’s work. It is worrying that the Resolution and pressure on hard-pressed parents’ budgets. Our new Foundation had to undertake that work because the clause calls on the Government to consider a supply-led Government have not done sufficient work to look at measure—extending the provision for three to four-year- the true impact on parents. The Resolution Foundation olds—that is not so susceptible to the risk of price inflation. suggests that 80% of the families who will benefit from The Government have so far dismissed the widely expressed top-up payments are in the top 40% of income distribution. and legitimate concerns about the impact of the Bill on The remaining 20% will go to those in the middle of the future child care prices. I hope the Minister can respond distribution scale. If the key aims of the Bill are to to these concerns, as expressed in new clause 1, as well support parents with the cost of child care and to help as new clause 2, which we will come to later. more parents back into work by making work an The third point I want to make concerns perhaps the economically viable option, those figures raise questions most striking thing we took away from the evidence about whether its aims are achievable through this sessions last month and our line-by-line scrutiny sessions: Government scheme alone. In contrast, many child care the potential nightmare of complexity and confusion experts agree that Labour’s child care plans, as outlined that parents might face following the introduction of in new clause 1, meet these twin aims. top-up payments. The Bill proposes an entirely new mechanism for administering support for parents. By contrast, the measures in new clause 1 would simply extend 6pm an existing scheme—three to four-year-olds are already In a follow-up to one of our Committee sittings, the entitled to 15 hours of free child care—by providing an Minister made a worrying admission. In a letter to additional 10 hours where both parents are in work. Committee members, she revealed that on her Department’s Widespread concerns have been raised that the Bill estimation almost 10% of eligible families—about 170,000 might add complexity and confusion when parents come families—did not have access to the internet and therefore, to access child care support and have to decide whether effectively, might not have access to the top-up payments. to remain within the voucher scheme or switch to the The Bill requires that parents hold online child care top-up scheme. In particular, it might create additional accounts to receive the Government top-up payments. confusion for parents on lower incomes who might not It is proposed that these would be administered by be in a position to make an active choice between schemes, NS&I, with back office functions provided by Atos. It but instead might have to move between schemes as their now transpires, however, that about 170,000 families incomes fluctuate—as they move between being eligible might be excluded from these top-up payments simply for tax credits and universal credit support and losing because they do not have access to the internet. That is that eligibility as they move into higher-paid work. We another reason why the Government should support discussed those issues at length in Committee, but so far new clause 1 and our proposals to extend the free Ministers have failed to address them. For that reason, entitlement, which would not have any of these implications our new clause 1 seeks an alternative, additional support or complications for parents. and cushion for vulnerable parents on the borderline In response, the Government plan to make exceptions between universal credit and the top-up payment scheme. for certain people, such as those with a disability or We know that there are plans to develop an online those who live in remote areas and have poor internet “better off” calculator, similar to the tax credit calculator, connectivity, but the point still stands: if someone does to aid parents in making these decisions, but if Ministers not have a computer or internet-enabled device, either cannot tell hon. Members who will benefit from which because they cannot afford one or because they choose scheme and by how much—depending on their income and not to have one, it could essentially exclude them from circumstances—how do they propose to convey these the top-up payments and child care support. I hope that messages to parents simply and effectively? How will the Minister will respond to that issue, which I am sure parents be able to make a straightforward decision? So even she would agree is hugely concerning. far, Ministers have been unable to answer these questions. Putting aside the question of who will benefit, our Given that child care is vital for so many people who are other concern—and another reason why we will be in work, looking for work or looking to increase their pressing new clause 1 to a vote—is whether the Government hours, we need to know exactly how much support this scheme will be as valuable to parents in a few years as scheme will provide for parents struggling with child when it is introduced. Our new clause 1 suggests extending care. free entitlement for three to four-year-olds whose parents It is no use promising parents that the Government are both in work and is a supply-led form of support will provide thousands of pounds of support when in that experts agree would neither have the same implications reality they will get much less; it is no good offering for child care prices nor potentially expose parents to support to parents when the scheme comes into operation artificial inflation—a concern about the Bill that has if in a short time that help will be worth far less; and it is been expressed repeatedly. We have heard from a wide no good dreaming up an entire new mechanism of child variety of witnesses that the potential benefits of the care support if it only makes parents’lives more complicated scheme could be wiped out by future increases in child —or, worse still, is prone to errors and failure. Furthermore, care costs, which we know have already risen by 30% in the scheme is untested and potentially costly. The figures the past four years and will continue to rise and outstrip have already been significantly revised, raising concerns the value of the support. about whether they have been properly calculated. 71 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 72

For those reasons, we have tabled new clause 1. Given is defined as one aged under 12 or, in the case of a the numerous concerns expressed about the Government’s disabled child, under 17. I do not need to recap fully on top-up scheme, we urge Ministers to give proper the reasoning I set out in Committee; suffice it to say, as consideration to an additional, alternative plan—one I mentioned at the time, that the stated definition of a that we know works and will make a big difference to disabled child does not fit easily with section 6 of the 500,000 working families with three to four-year-olds: Childcare Act 2006, which places a duty on local authorities the plan to extend Labour’s free entitlement for three to to provide sufficient child care for working parents with four-year-olds from 15 hours to 25 hours a week for disabled children aged up to 18 “as far as practicable”. 38 weeks a year. We know that it would be worth £1,500 The Exchequer Secretary objected to raising the age per year per child; that the funding would go directly to of eligibility for disabled children to 18 on the grounds child care providers and therefore would not leave parents that the age limit was set in line with the child care so exposed to inflated child care prices; and that it element of universal credit. However, it is important to would be simple and straightforward to administer and recognise that the regulations on the child care element implement for both parents and the Government; and of universal credit reflect a maximum age that was set we know how it would be funded—through an increase more than a decade ago when the child care element of in the bank levy, which has returned so much less than working tax credit was established. Put simply, markedly the Government said it would. less evidence was available on how families use child The free early education entitlement for three to care, and our understanding has improved greatly since. four-year-olds introduced under Labour has been hugely The Childcare Act 2006, however, was designed to successful in providing vital support for parents and in take into account the evidence of child care needs in helping them back into work. We know from the latest families with disabled children, which in many cases remain data from the Department for Education this year that significant up to 18 and beyond. It therefore makes sense some 94% of three-year-olds and 99% of four-year-olds— to adopt the maximum age set by the Childcare Act, which around 1.3 million children in total—currently benefit set a higher age because it was based on a comprehensive from this provision, the vast majority of whom, 1.2 million review of the available evidence, rather than revert back children, benefit from the full 15 hours a week to which to an historical maximum age that no longer reflects they are entitled. our best understanding of families’ child care needs. Kitty Stewart, research associate and associate professor Through the tax-free child care scheme, the Government at the Centre for the Analysis of Social Exclusion at the are committing significant new resources to support London School of Economics gave evidence to the Bill parents with child care costs. This will come at a cost of Committee last month. She commented on the remarkable more than £800 million each year, and my hon. Friend progress seen with this child care offer over the last the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine decade or so, saying: McKinnell) made it very clear that we welcome that. “Considerable progress has been made in expanding access to There must be some scope to ensure that a balance early education and childcare over the last decade. One million exists between supporting all parents and those who new places have been created and the near universal take up of the free entitlement for three and four year olds is a remarkable face significant additional costs. achievement, ensuring that those families who were least likely to The additional costs of raising a disabled child are use ECEC services now have access.” well documented, and the Minister herself noted in That is why we believe, as set out in new clause 1, that Committee that she was “conscious” of these additional the Government should consider extending this hugely child care costs that families with disabled children successful and effective offer to three and four-year-olds might have to meet. I need not go into any great detail, whose parents both work, in addition to the support but these can include such things as extra nappies or provided in the Bill. We believe that doing so would be a continence supplies, specially designed shoes, IT adaptations far more effective way of achieving the Government’s and communication aids, as well as specially adapted aim of supporting parents with the cost of child care toys or equipment. That is on top of the day-to-day and helping more parents get back into work—aims premium that is paid already in the shape of higher that I know we all support. travel and activity costs, and the like.

Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I rise to 6.15 pm support new clause 1 and specifically to speak to The Minister noted in Committee that the Government amendments 1 and 2, which are aimed at getting a fairer already provide additional support to disabled children, deal for parents with disabled children by respectively pointing to universal credit, which she suggested provides rethinking how we identify qualifying children to expand the definition beyond that planned by the Government, “more generous support for disabled adults and disabled children than it does for people in similar circumstances who are not aligning it with the prescriptions of the Childcare Act disabled.”––[Official Report, Childcare Payments Public Bill Committee, 2006, and increasing the amount of top-up payment 23 October 2014; c. 192.] available to support parents of disabled children. However, it is critical that we are clear about this. This The provisions in clause 14 relate to “qualifying extra support for disabled children that comes as part of children” and lay out the criteria that such children universal credit is designed to offset the extra costs that must meet to be eligible for the scheme. Clause 14 is have already been acknowledged, and not to pay for child therefore fundamental to the entire Bill, so it is of the care. This is the difference. If child care costs could be met utmost importance that we get its provisions right. within the basic element of tax credits, there would be Failure to do so risks undermining the entire scheme. no need for a further child care element for all parents. That, After this amendment was brought forward in however, is not the case, and the Government have Committee, I understand that the Government’s intention recognised as much by accepting that the significant extra was to frame regulations such that a “qualifying child” costs of child care justify an additional child care element. 73 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 74

Time and again, it has been emphasised that parents clear that existing financial support for disabled children with disabled children often face markedly higher child care is not addressing the barriers of affordability. Despite costs. As the Committee heard when taking oral evidence, the support that is currently available, child care is still 38% of parents with disabled children paid between beyond the reach of many families with disabled children £11 and £20 an hour for child care, while 5% paid more because the hourly cost means that they quickly reach than £20 an hour. This is obviously very high when the weekly cap on support. compared to the national average of £3.50 to £4.50 an In addition to the burden imposed by higher everyday hour. The support parents receive should reflect that costs, there is the problem that less good-quality child reality. care provision is available to parents of disabled children. This brings me nicely on to the case for amendment 2, Only two in five parent carers believe that child care which is designed explicitly to address the problem of providers in their areas can cater for their children’s affordability of child care for all parents with disabled disabilities, while only 35% feel that providers are available children through the tax-free child care scheme by at times that conform with their daily commitments. increasing the amount of support available through According to the survey, matters are made even worse top-up payments. As Members are all aware, access to for parents of disabled children by the limited choice of good-quality, affordable child care is important for all suitable child care. parents. Quality provision has positive impacts on children’s Both those issues must be addressed if the barriers to learning outcomes as well as wider benefits such as social inclusion are to be removed and parents are to be enabling parents to work. helped to work. The discrepancies in support for parents However, the recent independent parliamentary inquiry of disabled children are abundantly clear. Supporting into child care for disabled children highlighted that amendment 1, and taking steps to align the maximum parents with disabled children are often excluded from age of eligibility for the tax-free child care scheme and child care owing to a range of barriers, including the child care element of universal credit with the affordability. It is an uncomfortable reality that childhood Childcare Act 2006, would ensure that older disabled disability is a not uncommon trigger for poverty because children benefited from financial support, and would families incur considerable additional and ongoing expenses help to remedy the poor provision for that age group. as a result. As I mentioned a few moments ago, the Failing to adopt the amendment would effectively mean costs associated with bringing up a disabled child can that disabled children as young as 16 lost out. We all be as much as three times higher than those incurred by know that it would greatly improve the well-being of bringing up a child without a disability. young people and benefit their families if support continued The principal driver behind these high costs is the until after their 18th birthdays. additional cost of one-to-one care or extra supervision, while suitable providers might need to meet the cost of Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): I understand what physical adaptations and staff training. As I mentioned the hon. Gentleman is saying, because it accords with in Committee, I was pleased to see the Minister acknowledge my experience in my constituency, but does he not think these additional child care costs that families will need that local authorities have an obligation to ensure that to meet and to hear her commitment to explore the there is sufficient care for disabled children? KIDS possibility of going further to support these families. nursery in my constituency is a specialist nursery for She now needs to do that. Even so, I hope that she will disabled children. Should not local authorities be thinking agree to examine the amendment in more detail, with a about providing such services as well? view to doubling the top-up available for disabled children from 20% to 40%. Alex Cunningham: I have been fighting the ending of Restrictively high child care costs are self defeating in specialist nursing provision at my local hospital, because that they act as a barrier to inclusion for both parents it meets the specific needs of parents of disabled children. and children. Of parents who responded to the inquiry There has been a considerable reduction in the amount survey, 80% of lone parents and 66% of couple parents of money that enables local authorities to meet the who did not work full time said they wanted to find demand for essential services—if they were given more work or work more, while 72% of families with disabled means, they might well be able to expand provision—but children had cut back or given up work because of child I agree with the right hon. Lady that someone should care problems. take responsibility, and I think that my amendment goes some way towards ensuring that that happens. Worryingly, the survey also highlighted that parents without access to mainstream child care were struggling In Committee, the Minister said: to find opportunities for their children to be independent, “It is right that we make the new scheme consistent with the build confidence and make friends. Many Members will current framework.”––[Official Report, Child care Payments Public be aware that disabled children are much more dependent Bill Committee, 23 October 2014; c. 192.] on organised activities, which fall within the child care I urge her to reconsider her decision not to increase registration system, to stay active, make friends and support for parents of disabled children. She can help participate in activities outside of school. today by increasing the maximum age at which disabled As a direct consequence, parents with disabled children children become eligible for the tax-free child care scheme— are more dependent on accessing child care provision to and, in future, for the child care element of universal credit support family well-being and manage what is often an —to 18, to align the scheme with the prescriptions of extremely tough combination of caring and work. However, the Childcare Act sufficiency duty, and to give the families with high child care costs and a reduced scope for work, of disabled children the support that they need and deserve. these are needs that are all too often unmet. Indeed, the At the same time, the Government should aim to 1,200 parents and carers who responded to the independent establish a framework that would include all children parliamentary inquiry’s survey made it overwhelmingly with disabilities in child care in order to fulfil the basic 75 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 76

[Alex Cunningham] largest parts of the household budget. The Government believe that there is a powerful case for improving access principles of equality and inclusion. Equitable access to to child care throughout childhood, and to ensure that affordable, flexible, high-quality child care would be parents are helped to work if they choose to do so. The hugely valuable to children’s social and educational new scheme for children up to the age of 12 will build development, not to mention parents’ well-being and on the £5 billion per year that the Government already long-term economic prospects. In its present form, spend on early education and child care. It will help however, the tax-free child care scheme will not effectively many more parents to meet their costs, including self- remove the additional affordability barriers from parents employed parents who cannot gain access to support with disabled children. To address that inequality, the under the existing employer-supported child-care scheme. Government should provide the additional top-up payments We recognise that every family is different, and will for disabled children through the tax-free child care have different child-care needs and cost. We recognise scheme that amendment 2 would provide. I hope that that no one size fits all. The scheme is therefore designed the Minister will consider that proposal. to provide flexible support for working families, and to The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Priti Patel): cater for different family circumstances. For example, it It gives me great pleasure to speak in the debate. Let me will allow parents to build up money in their child-care begin by thanking everyone who contributed to the accounts to cover increased costs at holiday times. Committee stage, engaging in constructive dialogue, As I have already said many times during our debates submitting the Bill to line-by-line scrutiny, sharing their on the Bill, the Government have made a clear commitment views and giving evidence. I think that all Members to reviewing the impact of the scheme two years after its found the evidence sessions extremely helpful. Opposition full implementation. That was made clear in the impact Members tabled a number of well-considered probing assessment that was published alongside the Bill. The amendments that were designed to seek clarification review will consider the impact on all age groups within throughout— the scope of the scheme—which will, of course, include three and four-year olds—but it will not consider the Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Dawn Primarolo): effects of free early education, which is already the Order. This is not an opportunity to review all the work subject of extensive evaluation. that was done in Committee. The debate is very narrow. The Government take the evaluation of early education The Minister should be responding to the debate on very seriously. We have commissioned a significant new clause 1 and the amendments. I do not want her to longitudinal study of early education and development, come to that gradually; it is the only thing that she which will evaluate the effectiveness of the current should be doing. I have given her a little bit of latitude, early-education model in England and, more specifically, but perhaps she will now return to new clause 1. the impact of funded early-years education on two-year-olds Priti Patel: I will do so very promptly, Madam Deputy from lower-income families. It will also update evidence Speaker. from the effective pre-school and primary education New clause 1 would require the Government to publish, project. It will continue until 2020. within three months of Royal Assent, an assessment of The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North the benefits of this scheme to parents of three and (Catherine McKinnell) made a number of points. For four-year-old children, together with an assessment of instance, she mentioned children’s centres. Let me reiterate the benefits in addition to the likely benefits of funding that the Government want to see a strong network of 25 hours of free child care per week for such parents. children’s centres throughout the country, offering families The Government fully understand the importance of access to a wide range of local and flexible services, high-quality early education for that age group, which is tackling disadvantage, and preparing children for later why they fund 15 hours a week of early education for life. Again, we covered in Committee many of the every three or four-year-old. We have extended that points about what goes on in centres and support in entitlement to the least advantaged 40% of two-year-olds, children’s centres. thus saving their families about £2,440 a year. By the The hon. Lady also specifically mentioned supply-side end of this financial year, funding for early education provision of child care, which we touched on in Committee, places alone will have risen by over £1 billion during the too. There are 100,000 more child care places than there current Parliament. We have committed ourselves to were in 2009 and a lot of work is being done on the that substantial investment in early education because supply-side provision of child care, which is the point of there is overwhelming evidence, here and elsewhere in this Bill. the world, that high-quality early education has long-lasting benefits for children. We have seen big year-on-year improvements in the development of five-year-old children 6.30 pm who have benefited from early learning, although we On the quality side, we are providing £50 million in recognise that many factors influence school readiness extra funding in 2015-16 to nurseries, schools and other and later attainment. We have commissioned academically providers of Government-funded early education, to robust and detailed research in order to understand support disadvantaged three and four-year-olds. This is more about the way in which high-quality early education also about improving quality as well as quantity, and affects children’s attainment and social and behavioural improving qualifications for the early-years work force development. and introducing early-years educator qualifications are However, it is important to recognise—as the Bill vital. We have discussed that, too. does—that the cost of child care is an issue not just for The hon. Lady made a point about the overall support under-fives, but for school-age children. For many working for child care and those on lower incomes. The overall families, the high costs of child care make it one of the system of child care support remains focused on those 77 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 78 on lower incomes. The Government are already spending scheme has been designed to be parent-focused—parent- over £1 billion a year on child care support through tax friendly is, I think, the term to use—and to work with credits and will extend this support in universal credit. employers, because this is about engaging both parties Under UC, this Government are investing an additional to communicate, educate and inform. Employers have £400 million so that families can claim up to 85% off an important role to play—we must not forget that—so the costs of child care from 2016, and £200 million is working with employers on the scheme design is key. also being put in so that child care support will be The introduction of this new scheme sits alongside available regardless of the number of hours worked. strong early-education entitlement for pre-schoolers to The hon. Lady mentioned the impact assessment and support families and hard-pressed families with their the average increase in tax-free child care being £600. On child care costs and support parents to work more if average this increase in support is £600, but the average they want to do so. award will be higher because that is an average figure. As I said in Committee and we have touched on again The hon. Lady also mentioned access to the internet today, we have already committed to reviewing the for families—for 200,000 families—and I would like to impact of this new scheme after two years, and it is hard bring some clarity on this point. The newspaper stories to see what purpose would be served by a review only that appeared yesterday were inaccurate because what three months after Royal Assent, given the Government’s was reported is simply not fully the case; they distort the clear commitment to reviewing the scheme. situation. As outlined in the letter circulated to Members I shall now move on to the points made about of Parliament, there will be “assisted approaches” for amendments 2 and 1 and the comments of the hon. families who cannot access the internet, which will Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham). I make sure that no parent misses out. We do recognise welcome his comments and I followed his remarks with that some parents will have difficulty accessing or using interest, and we discussed these matters in Committee. the internet, and in such cases Her Majesty’s Revenue We fully accept that child care costs are higher for and Customs will support them to register and use their parents with disabled children; there is no disagreement child care account online, providing opportunities for here at all. The families and parents of disabled children learning and, where appropriate, encouraging parents struggle with the challenges of raising and looking after to use online services independently in future. I touched their children. We had a very fluid debate about this in on this in Committee: the HMRC support is very specific Committee. and the support will be there. I want to make that clear The effect of amendment 2 is straightforward. It so no Members leave the House tonight thinking there would increase the level at which the Government top-up is no support for those families. Where parents are payments are paid to parents of disabled children from simply not able to access the internet, there will be 20% to 40%. This would mean in practice that for every facilities for them to access the scheme by telephone. £10 spent on child care, the Government would contribute That point was also made previously. £4 and the parent the remaining £6. This contrasts with We also touched extensively in Committee on the the position set out in the Bill, which is that the Government point about the system being too complex. I want to would contribute £2 of every £10 spent on child care. assure all Members that this scheme is designed with I am very well aware of the keen interest the hon. parents in mind. It is intended to be streamlined in its Gentleman takes in families with disabled children. He application, and very straightforward, simple, flexible spoke with great eloquence in Committee and I thank and convenient for parents. As I said in Committee, we him for his contribution on this point. As he rightly are working with parents and many stakeholder groups— pointed out, families with disabled children face significant including many who gave evidence in Committee, and costs, and that fact ought to be reflected in the scheme. those we have been working with on the design of this A number of witnesses who gave evidence to the Committee scheme—to ensure that their suggestions, advice, counsel made similar points. I have already put on the record and guidance are taken on board. that I fully understand the arguments the hon. Gentleman This is not meant to be a complex scheme. It is meant and others have made and it is absolutely right that to be as user-friendly for parents as possible, which is parents of disabled children are properly supported, why we are listening and consulting, because it is all which brings me to why I will ask him to withdraw his about the design and making sure that those who need amendments. to access the scheme can do so. Alex Cunningham: I thank the Minister for her kind Maria Miller: The Minister will have provided a great comments, but the multiplication that I want to achieve deal of clarity today for parents who might have been for disabled children does not even reflect the multiplication concerned about some of the reports they had read in factor in their child care costs. Child care can cost the papers. I thank her on behalf of my constituents for £20 an hour, but all I am asking is that the Government what she has said. double the amount of support they give. I am not The Minister mentioned the communication she is asking them to increase it by four or five times. having with stakeholder groups. Is she also communicating with employers to make sure they are aware of the way Priti Patel: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his comment. the new system will work, especially those who may I outlined measures relating to disabled children in want to make their own contributions to their staff’s Committee. We recognise the high costs faced by parents child care costs? of disabled children, and the specialist care that their children need, but increasing the amount of top-up is Priti Patel: I thank my right hon. Friend for her obviously not appropriate, for the reasons that I have intervention and comments. She is absolutely right; as already outlined. I have made a commitment on disabled she will know from discussions in Committee, this children, and I am exploring the possibility of increasing 79 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 80

[Priti Patel] Howarth, rh Mr George Pearce, Teresa Hunt, Tristram Perkins, Toby the maximum amount that a parent of a disabled child Irranca-Davies, Huw Pound, Stephen can pay into their child care account. For those reasons, James, Mrs Siân C. Powell, Lucy I ask the Opposition to withdraw their new clause. Jamieson, Cathy Qureshi, Yasmin Jarvis, Dan Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Johnson, rh Alan Reed, Mr Steve Catherine McKinnell: I thank the Minister for her Johnson, Diana Reeves, Rachel thorough reply to the concerns that I expressed earlier. Jones, Helen Reynolds, Emma She has gone some way towards alleviating them, but Jones, Mr Kevan Reynolds, Jonathan some concerns remain. We shall have to give the Jones, Susan Elan Riordan, Mrs Linda Government the benefit of the doubt on the delivery of Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Ritchie, Ms Margaret her reassurances, but that does not take away from the Keeley, Barbara Robertson, Angus fact that dealing with the supply-side issues and extending Kendall, Liz Robertson, John the free entitlement for three and four-year-olds would Lammy, rh Mr David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey constitute a much better offer to parents. The Government Lavery, Ian Rotheram, Steve could do that now to provide support for parents who Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Mr Frank are struggling with child care costs and with the cost of Leslie, Chris Ruane, Chris living more generally. We will therefore press new clause 1 Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sarwar, Anas to a vote. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Sawford, Andy Love, Mr Andrew Seabeck, Alison Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Lucas, Ian Sharma, Mr Virendra The House divided: Ayes 206, Noes 274. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Sheerman, Mr Barry Mactaggart, Fiona Shuker, Gavin Division No. 80] [6.41 pm Mahmood, Mr Khalid Skinner, Mr Dennis Mahmood, Shabana Slaughter, Mr Andy AYES Malhotra, Seema Smith, Angela Abbott, Ms Diane David, Wayne Mann, John Smith, Owen Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Davies, Geraint Marsden, Mr Gordon Spellar, rh Mr John Alexander, Heidi De Piero, Gloria McCabe, Steve Straw, rh Mr Jack Ali, Rushanara Dobson, rh Frank McCann, Mr Michael Stuart, Ms Gisela Allen, Mr Graham Docherty, Thomas McCarthy, Kerry Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Ashworth, Jonathan Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McClymont, Gregg Thomas, Mr Gareth Austin, Ian Doran, Mr Frank McDonagh, Siobhain Timms, rh Stephen McDonald, Andy Bailey, Mr Adrian Doughty, Stephen Trickett, Jon McDonnell, John Bain, Mr William Doyle, Gemma Turner, Karl McFadden, rh Mr Pat Balls, rh Ed Dromey, Jack Twigg, Derek McGovern, Alison Banks, Gordon Durkan, Mark Twigg, Stephen McGovern, Jim Barron, rh Kevin Eagle, Maria Umunna, Mr Chuka Bayley, Hugh Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Vaz, rh Keith Beckett, rh Margaret Evans, Chris McInnes, Liz Vaz, Valerie Begg, Dame Anne Farrelly, Paul McKechin, Ann Watson, Mr Tom Berger, Luciana Field, rh Mr Frank McKenzie, Mr Iain Watts, Mr Dave Betts, Mr Clive Fitzpatrick, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Blackman-Woods, Roberta Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian Weir, Mr Mike Blears, rh Hazel Flynn, Paul Mitchell, Austin Whitehead, Dr Alan Blomfield, Paul Fovargue, Yvonne Moon, Mrs Madeleine Williams, Hywel Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Francis, Dr Hywel Morden, Jessica Williamson, Chris Brown, Lyn Gapes, Mike Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wilson, Phil Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Winnick, Mr David Brown, Mr Russell Glass, Pat (Easington) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Buck, Ms Karen Glindon, Mrs Mary Mudie, Mr George Wishart, Pete Byrne, rh Mr Liam Godsiff, Mr Roger Munn, Meg Wood, Mike Campbell, rh Mr Alan Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Mr Jim Woodcock, John Campbell, Mr Ronnie Greatrex, Tom Murphy, rh Paul Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Murray, Ian Champion, Sarah Greenwood, Lilian Wright, David Nandy, Lisa Chapman, Jenny Griffith, Nia Wright, Mr Iain Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gwynne, Andrew Nash, Pamela Clwyd, rh Ann Hain, rh Mr Peter O’Donnell, Fiona Tellers for the Ayes: Coaker, Vernon Hamilton, Fabian Osborne, Sandra Mr David Hamilton and Connarty, Michael Hanson, rh Mr David Owen, Albert Graham Jones Cooper, Rosie Harman, rh Ms Harriet Cooper, rh Yvette Harris, Mr Tom NOES Crausby, Mr David Havard, Mr Dai Afriyie, Adam Barker, rh Gregory Creagh, Mary Healey, rh John Aldous, Peter Bebb, Guto Creasy, Stella Hepburn, Mr Stephen Amess, Mr David Beith, rh Sir Alan Cryer, John Hermon, Lady Cunningham, Alex Heyes, David Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Benyon, Richard Cunningham, Mr Jim Hillier, Meg Bacon, Mr Richard Beresford, Sir Paul Cunningham, Sir Tony Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Baker, Steve Berry, Jake Dakin, Nic Hood, Mr Jim Baldwin, Harriett Bingham, Andrew Danczuk, Simon Hosie, Stewart Barclay, Stephen Binley, Mr Brian 81 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 82

Birtwistle, Gordon Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Karl Sharma, Alok Blackman, Bob Graham, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Shepherd, Sir Richard Blackwood, Nicola Grant, Mrs Helen McVey, rh Esther Simmonds, Mark Bone, Mr Peter Gray, Mr James Menzies, Mark Simpson, Mr Keith Bottomley, Sir Peter Green, rh Damian Metcalfe, Stephen Skidmore, Chris Bradley, Karen Greening, rh Justine Miller, rh Maria Smith, Chloe Brady, Mr Graham Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mills, Nigel Smith, Henry Bray, Angie Griffiths, Andrew Milton, Anne Smith, Julian Bridgen, Andrew Gyimah, Mr Sam Moore, rh Michael Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Brine, Steve Hague, rh Mr William Mordaunt, Penny Soubry, Anna Brokenshire, James Halfon, Robert Morris, Anne Marie Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Brooke, rh Annette Hames, Duncan Morris, David Stanley, rh Sir John Browne, Mr Jeremy Hammond, Stephen Morris, James Stephenson, Andrew Bruce, Fiona Hancock, rh Matthew Mosley, Stephen Stewart, Bob Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hands, rh Greg Mowat, David Stewart, Iain Buckland, Mr Robert Harper, Mr Mark Mulholland, Greg Streeter, Mr Gary Burns, Conor Harrington, Richard Mundell, rh David Stride, Mel Burns, rh Mr Simon Harris, Rebecca Munt, Tessa Stuart, Mr Graham Burrowes, Mr David Hart, Simon Murray, Sheryll Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Burt, rh Alistair Harvey, Sir Nick Neill, Robert Sturdy, Julian Burt, Lorely Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Newmark, Mr Brooks Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Cairns, Alun Hayes, rh Mr John Newton, Sarah Swire, rh Mr Hugo Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heald, Sir Oliver Nokes, Caroline Syms, Mr Robert Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heath, Mr David Norman, Jesse Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Carmichael, Neil Heaton-Harris, Chris Nuttall, Mr David Thornton, Mike Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Clark, rh Greg Henderson, Gordon Offord, Dr Matthew Tomlinson, Justin Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hendry, Charles Opperman, Guy Tredinnick, David Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Paice, rh Sir James Truss, rh Elizabeth Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian Parish, Neil Turner, Mr Andrew Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark Patel, Priti Tyrie, Mr Andrew Colvile, Oliver Hollobone, Mr Philip Paterson, rh Mr Owen Uppal, Paul Crabb, rh Stephen Hopkins, Kris Pawsey, Mark Vaizey, Mr Edward Crockart, Mike Horwood, Martin Penning, rh Mike Vara, Mr Shailesh Davey, rh Mr Edward Howell, John Penrose, John Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Davies, David T. C. Hughes, rh Simon Percy, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin (Monmouth) Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Phillips, Stephen Wallace, Mr Ben Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark Pincher, Christopher Watkinson, Dame Angela Davies, Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Poulter, Dr Daniel Webb, rh Steve Davis, rh Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick Pritchard, Mark Wharton, James de Bois, Nick Jackson, Mr Stewart Pugh, John Wheeler, Heather Djanogly, Mr Jonathan James, Margot Raab, Mr Dominic White, Chris Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenrick, Robert Randall, rh Sir John Whittaker, Craig Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph Redwood, rh Mr John Willetts, rh Mr David Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williams, Roger Ellis, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Stephen Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Williamson, Gavin Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Willott, Jenny Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Robertson, Mr Laurence Wilson, Mr Rob Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Rogerson, Dan Wollaston, Dr Sarah Evans, Graham Knight, rh Sir Greg Rudd, Amber Wright, rh Jeremy Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Ruffley, Mr David Wright, Simon Evennett, Mr David Lamb, rh Norman Russell, Sir Bob Yeo, Mr Tim Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Rutley, David Young, rh Sir George Fallon, rh Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Sanders, Mr Adrian Zahawi, Nadhim Featherstone, rh Lynne Latham, Pauline Sandys, Laura Field, Mark Leadsom, Andrea Scott, Mr Lee Tellers for the Noes: Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Jessica Selous, Andrew Tom Brake and Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Shapps, rh Grant Gavin Barwell Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Freer, Mike Leigh, Sir Edward Question accordingly negatived. Fullbrook, Lorraine Leslie, Charlotte Fuller, Richard Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Gale, Sir Roger Lewis, Brandon New Clause 2 Garnier, Sir Edward Lewis, Dr Julian Garnier, Mark Lidington, rh Mr David REVIEW OF IMPACT ON CHILDCARE COSTS Gibb, Mr Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter ‘(1) The Chancellor of the Exchequer shall, three months after Gilbert, Stephen Lloyd, Stephen this Act is passed, and every three years thereafter, review the Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lopresti, Jack impact of the measures in this Act on the cost of childcare with Glen, John Luff, Sir Peter particular reference to— Goldsmith, Zac Maude, rh Mr Francis (a) the effectiveness of this Act on making childcare more Goodwill, Mr Robert Maynard, Paul affordable; 83 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 84

(b) the average cost of childcare for parents in work, Some of the Bill’s weaknesses may arise from the fact including the impact of other changes to the tax and that, as far as the Government are concerned, this is benefits system and with reference to the trends in purely a Treasury Bill; it has perhaps lacked some childcare costs since 2010; and valuable input from those with a stronger experience of (c) the impact of supply-led measures on the cost of how the child care market actually operates—or, in far childcare.’—(Alison McGovern.) too many cases, fails to operate—in this country. Brought up, and read the First time. In oral evidence to the Committee, numerous organisations and experts raised concerns about the Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I beg to long-term effects of the Bill, and we have seen little move, That the clause be read a Second time. movement from the Government to address those worries. The new clause seeks to go some way to rectifying that, Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): With by requiring the Chancellor to keep under review the this it will be convenient to discuss the following: impact the scheme has on issues of child care cost Amendment 12, in clause 11, page 7, line 8, after “may inflation and, thus, affordability. —”, insert— Let me say a few words about the situation in which “(a) repeal this section, or”. we find ourselves. There is, undeniably, a crisis in child Amendment 13, in clause 15, page 9, line 10, after “may care costs. There is no need to take my word for that or —”, insert— to rely on the testimony we hear on the doorsteps in our constituencies. The Office for National Statistics tells us “(a) amend this Act to allow childcare accounts to be held that between 2010 and 2014 the cost of placing a by persons other than those specified in subsection (1),”. two-year-old or older in nursery rose by 31%—wages Amendment 3, in clause 30, page 17, line 3, leave out rose by just under 4% in that period—and for under-twos “an award of tax credit is or has been made” the figure rose by 27%. [Interruption.] If the hon. and insert Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), who is sitting on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, wants to intervene, “an award of tax credit which includes the childcare element is or has been made”. he is welcome to. [Interruption.] I shall take that to mean he does not. Amendment 4, page 17, line 18, after “credit”, insert The figures also reveal that, as we have seen so often “which includes the childcare element”. during the past four years, the areas seeing the least Amendment 5, page 17, line 22, after “credit”, insert benefit from this weak and uneven recovery have been “which includes the childcare element”. hit the hardest by child care cost increases. In my region Amendment 6, page 17, line 31, after “credit”, insert of the north-west, costs are up by 46% in just four years. “which includes the childcare element”. Over the Pennines, in the north-east, the figure is 47%. A family in my constituency is having to find, on Amendment 7, in clause 32, page 19, line 16, after average, £31 a week more to fund 25 hours of nursery “credit”, insert for their two-year-old, three-year-old or four-year-old. “which includes the childcare element”. That is a hefty sum in almost anyone’s money. When Amendment 8, in clause 35, page 21, line 21, after that is tied in with frozen wages, reduced tax credits, “credit”, insert increased VAT and soaring housing costs, it all becomes “which includes the childcare element”. a pretty desperate recipe—I hear testimony on that Amendment 9, page 21, line 32, after “credit”, insert from my constituents week in, week out. “which includes the childcare element”. We know that not only are there regional biases to Amendment 10, in clause 36, page 22, line 12, after costs, but families with disabled children are being hit “credit”, insert disproportionately hard as well. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex “which includes the childcare element”. Cunningham), who was a doughty champion for the Amendment 11, page 22, line 24, after “credit”, insert parents of disabled children in Committee and who “which includes the childcare element”. has tabled amendments 1 to 13 today. The cross-party parliamentary inquiry on child care for disabled children, Alison McGovern: It is a pleasure to speak in support of which my hon. Friend was a member and which was of new clause 2, which stands in my name and that of chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for North West my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Durham (Pat Glass) and the hon. and learned Member North (Catherine McKinnell). Before I continue, may I for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), produced some pause briefly to pay tribute to the outstanding work valuable findings on that point. that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) did as my predecessor in this shadow 7pm position, and in particular to her scrutiny of the Bill in Some 86% of parents with disabled children report Committee? paying above the average price for child care; in many In and of itself, this is not a bad Bill. We agree with cases, they are paying up to £20 a week more. Those its aims; it sets out to address serious issues relating to parents will be hit even harder by the rapid rate of child child care costs and affordability, which we recognise care cost inflation. For too many families, child care form a major part of the crisis hitting so many families costs are now their No.1 outgoing. If two parents work in Britain today. Our concerns with the Bill are that, for part time on average wages, it will be Thursday of each all its good intentions in proposing this scheme for week before they have paid their child care bills and can payments towards child care costs, Treasury Ministers move on to paying for everything else. That is a crisis have not thought through all the potential consequences. indeed. 85 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 86

Put simply, the Government have not got to grips increases overnight as an appropriate time to increase with child care costs, partly because they have failed so their fees. The National Day Nurseries Association told miserably to resolve the issues of availability of care, to the Committee that its members needed to “play catch-up” which I will turn in just a moment. That failure has with regard to prices. In written evidence, the Family guaranteed that child care is one of the driving forces and Childcare Trust said that behind the feeling of so many families that they are not “there is little incentive for these providers not to increase prices getting the benefits of economic recovery. If there is to take advantage of the extra subsidy.” growth, too many people are just not feeling its benefits. The Institute for Public Policy Research has gone so far Many parents find that going back to work, or going as to estimate that the inflationary pressures unleashed back to work for their preferred number of hours, by the extra cash could negate the positive impact of the is simply not financially viable. The policy reduces subsidy to families within a matter of just a few years. employment—it is why Britain has one of the lowest That is a crucial point of which the Government should maternal employment rates in the OECD—and contributes be aware. If they really want each and every family in to the gender pay gap. However, this is by no means a our country to see the benefit of growth, they must be women-only issue; dads are hit by unaffordable child aware of the risks that they face. Such an outcome care too. By hitting family budgets and cutting the would obviously be bad for parents, who would be paying ability to earn, high child care costs contribute far too as much as they do now for the same thing, but it would often to child poverty. also mean that the Government had secured appalling After more than a million children were lifted out of value for money for their child care policy. We all have poverty under the previous Labour Government, progress an interest, across the House, in ensuring that that does has now ground to a halt. The Social Mobility and Child not happen. It is also why Labour is deeply sceptical Poverty Commission says that if the Government continue about the wisdom of a demand-side-only approach. on the current track, they are doomed to miss the 2020 target to eradicate child poverty. We will not meet that noble aim, established by the previous Government, Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Does the hon. Lady without a serious policy on affordable child care. accept that there are particular stresses on parents in rural areas, as the cost of travel has to be added to the Any steps to increase the support available to families cost of child care itself? The money could be better are welcome. Labour’s Front-Bench team have made it deployed in such areas in increasing the provision rather clear at every stage that we do not oppose the Bill and than the amount that child care providers get. that we support its aims. In some respects, it builds on the scheme introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) Alison McGovern: It is important for all of us to in 2004, which allowed for £50 of tax-free child care recognise the extra pressures on families in rural areas. each week. The tax system is a valuable mechanism in People’s circumstances are different. We want to increase securing more affordable child care, but there are limitations employment in rural areas as well as in suburban and to its effectiveness. urban areas. The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North has already said in relation to new clause 1, there are real risks from adopting a demand-side-only Alex Cunningham: My hon. Friend helps me to talk approach to this issue. There is little in the Bill that about the needs of parents with disabled children. When seeks to address the underlying inflation of child care inflation and prices go up, the increase is felt particularly costs. Indeed, there is serious concern in many quarters acutely by those families. Does she agree that the that it could simply end up exacerbating those pressures. Government really need to think again about that particular The Committee heard evidence from Australia that, element? following the introduction of a 30% child care rebate, the following decade saw child care costs rise by 100%, Alison McGovern: Again, I support the views of my compared with an inflation rate of just 27%. There are hon. Friend. Too often, parents of children with disabilities similar such examples in the Netherlands. are forgotten in our debates. They have the most important We should be frank that the introduction of the UK responsibility. Children with disabilities deserve all our tax credit system, immensely valuable as it was, was care and attention. I hope that, by raising this matter, followed by a period when child care cost inflation was we can remind ourselves that their parents might not higher. We want the Government to learn properly from have the time to make these points, so it is important that experience. The simple fact is that many child care that we all remember the extra costs and the circumstances providers are close to breaking point. Their operating that those parents face. We all have an interest in this costs have risen significantly. Some held down price matter. It is why Labour is sceptical about the wisdom increases during the worst years of the downturn so as of a demand-side-only approach. to retain customers and are now under even more In general, better value for money and better outcomes strain. Some have gone under. This is not a market with could be achieved through a radical expansion of the lots of spare cash floating around, either from provider free child care entitlement to three and four-year-olds, or consumer. from 15 hours a week to 25, paid for by an extension of In the Bill, the Government propose to put a significant the bank levy. There is no better week than this to be sum into the market, and that will be a welcome boost. making the argument about extending the bank levy, as However, it is only logical and understandable that once again we are seeing banks being taken to task for businesses that face rising costs, and which may have their poor behaviour. I make no apology for reminding attempted to restrain price increases in the worst years, Members about the importance of that bank levy, especially should see the moment when consumer spending power as it could pay for something as vital as child care. 87 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 88

[Alison McGovern] However, that is not what will result from the Bill in its current form. As we saw from the debate on new clause 1, the Let us take as an example a parent who is offered 15 hours Government are not about to accept the policy—more of work a week on a low rate of pay. Most, if not all, of fool them—but we want to ensure that Ministers are any gains from this employment could be totally lost in required to keep track of the inflationary impacts. New child care costs. They would not get any support from clause 2 requires that within three months of the Bill’s the Government to meet those costs and might therefore becoming an Act and every three years subsequently, not be able to afford to take the work in the first place, the Chancellor will have to review the impact of the and I for one would not be surprised if they chose to subsidy on making child care more affordable, on what spend the time with their children instead. These amendments, the average cost of child care for parents in work is and however, would create a much greater financial incentive on whether supply-led measures could be more effective. for people to start working part time. That is not a massively onerous burden on the immense capabilities of the Treasury, but a very valuable canary It is important to be clear from the outset that the in the coal mine regarding child care inflation. purpose of the tax-free child care scheme is to provide support for child care costs for those who are not In Committee, the Minister was consistently against eligible for help from elsewhere. As I mentioned when I any suggestion of hourly rate capping or other means of raised the matter in Committee, there is an anomaly in placing a brake on any inflationary pressures arising the Bill if we are serious about encouraging people from the policy. A regular review might demonstrate to go back into work or to stay in work—particularly whether the post hoc implementation of such provisions those who are on the lowest earned incomes in our society. might in fact be necessary if the subsidy is to be anything more than a damp squib. The Bill as it stands says that the Minister recognises The Bill is a blunt instrument that fails to target that there are some who do not get any help through tax Government funding and gives the most financial support credits but that the Government will do nothing to help. to the best-off families. It will possibly provide some I am sure that that is not what she intends. Indeed, in short-term relief for parents, but does little to deal with Committee, she specified that the new scheme should the underlying problems of inflation, supply and quality not interfere with financial incentives for people to in the child care system. There are 40,000 fewer child work more hours, let alone create perverse incentives, care places in England than there were when the but that is precisely what the Bill will do. Government came to power and almost 4,000 fewer Many parents who claim tax credits are both working suppliers. Childminder numbers are down by 13%. For and incurring child care costs, but they are not entitled tens and likely hundreds of thousands of families across to claim the child care element because, for instance, the country, the proposals in the Bill will mean little or they do not meet the minimum number of working nothing because they simply cannot find a child care hours per week to qualify. Clause 30, however, makes it place or access one that will offer the flexibility in hours clear that any tax credit award will be terminated when to fit around work. We need radical reform of the a valid claim for the tax-free child care scheme is made, broken child care market. This Bill does not provide it, regardless of whether the child care element of working but by supporting new clause 2 today Members can at tax credit is received. Put into context, that means that least take a step that will help guard against its being a households in which one parent is working full-time worse than a useless creator of child care cost inflation. while the other works 12 hours a week will not be Alex Cunningham: My hon. Friend the hon. Member entitled to receive the child care element of tax credits for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell) to support them in the payment of child care costs. has already talked about the complexity of the Similarly, single parents working 15 hours or fewer per Government’s scheme. Amendments 12, 13 and 3 to week on average will also not be entitled to the child 11 are all aimed at simplifying the relationship and care element of working tax credit. Both would have to interaction between the tax-free child care scheme and pay for their child care out of their own, potentially low, other sources of support, particularly tax credits and earnings. universal credit. Members might be aware that I tabled amendments 3 7.15 pm to 11 in Committee with the intention of broadening There can be no doubt that that would be all the the provisions of the Bill and allowing those households harder to swallow if they knew that their next door in receipt of tax credits that do not receive any support neighbour, who worked the additional hour to hit 16 hours for their child care costs in their tax credit award to a week at minimum wage, would get up to 70% of their receive support from the tax-free child care scheme. My child care costs paid through tax credits, or that their hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South (Alison neighbour on the other side who earned too much to McGovern) has already outlined that the working poor receive any tax credits would get support of up to have been hit most by the policies of this Government £2,000 per child through each of their tax-free child and I would like that not to apply to child care. care accounts. Giving those people help will entail several minor changes being made to the clauses dealing with the We all know that many part-time workers have very special rules affecting tax credits and universal credit little control over whether they can work more than claimants: specifically clauses 30, 32, 35 and 36. In 16 hours. Shift workers often have to work the hours Committee, the Minister was very clear about the need that are available to them. It can be a big disincentive to to deliver a welfare system that is work if people cannot guarantee that they will be able “designed to encourage progression into work”.––[Official Report, to secure 16 hours of work and qualify for the support Childcare Payments Public Bill Committee, 23 October 2014; that would mean that they would be able to cover the c. 223.] costs of child care. These amendments would give working 89 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 90 families that security, allowing them to go to work safe be no doubt that there is potential for great confusion in the knowledge that however many hours they work, among parents. Indeed, I suggest that those interactions they will have enough support to pay for their child care. have still not been adequately considered. The Minister In Committee, the Minister highlighted the fact that claimed in Committee that it was the Government’s as earnings increase tax credit payments are gradually “objective and my mission to ensure that the scheme is easy for reduced. That includes any child care element. However, parents to use”––[Official Report, Childcare Payments Public Bill that should not result in any additional complexity, Committee, 21 October 2014; c. 176.] because what matters under the amendment is a parent’s I urge her to look again at these amendments. initial entitlement, not whether their final payment has The extreme complexity of the competing options is been tapering off. At the same time, the amendment likely to lead to confusion for claimants, and to result in would also conveniently address another matter. As I them having considerable difficulty making sensible said in Committee, many parents will be very aware that and informed financial decisions. Take, for instance, the they do not receive help with child care costs from tax tax-free child care scheme in the Bill. The amount credits. Some are therefore likely to be confused by the payable under the scheme is not means-tested, yet universal message that the tax-free child care scheme is to provide credit, tax credits and housing benefit are all means-tested, support for child care costs to those who are not eligible so the amounts payable will vary with income and for help from other sources that are state funded. Indeed, circumstances. The upshot is that the system that is I for one would not consider it unreasonable or financially right for an individual will depend on a unforeseeable for parents in such circumstances to expect number of interconnected factors and will not always that they can claim tax-free child care in addition to tax be immediately clear. It will, in short, become nigh on credits. However, if they claim tax-free child care, their impossible for some to calculate. claim for tax credits will be stopped. For those who are on the threshold between different I hope that the Minister will examine very carefully systems, the complexity will be greater still. For many, what she could achieve by accepting this group of particularly those with fluctuating incomes such as the amendments. She could provide some very limited support self- employed, or those likely to have a change in to those who need it most and at relatively little cost. circumstances later in the year, the complexity will be so Once again, I ask her to consent to paying a 20% top-up great that it is likely to be impossible to provide a better on small contributions to child care made by some of off calculator that can cover many of the situations in our poorest working people who are otherwise at risk of which claimants find themselves. slipping through the safety net. Hywel Williams: I very much agree with the thrust of Amendments 12 and 13 would similarly make provision the hon. Gentleman’s argument. His point applies to close potential holes in the safety net. They would particularly to people in seasonal industries such as allow the current scheme to go forward as designed, agriculture or, as in my constituency, tourism. I am sure but, if it were deemed desirable following the necessary that he agrees that there is a particular problem for further consultation, they would create provision for those sorts of workers. tax-free child care and/or child care accounts to be expanded to households in receipt of universal credit or Alex Cunningham: Yes. I am grateful to the hon. tax credits without the need for additional primary Gentleman for that intervention. I most certainly do legislation. In Committee, the Minister argued that agree with him. Pieceworkers and others can have hours families in receipt of universal credit will and wages that fluctuate over a long period; they will “already receive good, generous support for their child care most certainly be affected. I feel that the costs”.––[Official Report, Childcare Payments Public Bill Committee, “easy-to-use online tool”––[Official Report, Childcare Payments 21 October 2014; c. 176.] Public Bill Committee, 23 October 2014; c. 222.] However, she also pointed out that, as we all know, the promised by the Minister in Committee will prove elusive. roll-out of universal credit is ongoing and quite slow. On top of the sizeable potential for confusion, the Although I do not doubt that much work is going in to different mechanisms by which child care costs are to be getting it right, that is not a guarantee that the right paid under the tax-free child care scheme and universal formula will be achieved straight away. credit are also worrying. As we are aware, under the I was concerned, to say the least, that the Minister tax-free scheme, payments will be made through child was unable to offer a definition of “changing circumstances” care accounts. That will provide families who are in as that was deemed still to be a work in progress, and I receipt of tax-free child care with an important budgeting feel it would be premature to rule out the possibility of tool to help them manage their finances; that is particularly extending the tax-free child care scheme and child care important as payments will be made through child care accounts without further primary legislation at this account top-ups before costs are paid by the parent. point. In essence, clause 11 specifies that neither a However, child care support received through tax credits person receiving child care support under the tax-free and universal credit cannot be provided through child scheme nor their partner can be in receipt of universal care accounts. That means that child care payments are credit at the time of making a declaration of eligibility. not aligned, which gives rise to the potential for further Clause 15, on the other hand, deals with the rules that confusion and complexity for parents, and it means that apply to child care accounts and sets out details such as an important budgeting tool for households in receipt who can hold an account and who can provide one. I of tax-free child care is not available to those receiving will come to that in a few moments. child care support through universal credit. The Committee discussed in some detail the complexity It is worth highlighting that the Children’s Society of the interaction between the various sources of support report, “The Debt Trap”, found households in poverty for child care costs, whether through the tax-free child containing dependent children to be twice as likely to be care scheme, tax credits or universal credit. There can in some form of arrears as families on higher incomes. 91 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 92

[Alex Cunningham] will support these minor amendments, which would allow for the potential benefits that those changes could It is precisely these families who are most likely to need deliver, particularly for some of the poorest people in help budgeting, but who will be given the least support. our society. Moreover, universal credit payments of child care costs will be made in arrears. As Members will be aware, Priti Patel: I welcome the hon. Member for Wirral parents are usually required to pay child care providers South (Alison McGovern) to her position and post. It is one month in advance, but families on low incomes good to hear from her. Obviously, she did not have the claiming universal credit are likely to have the lowest full benefit of participating in the Committee, so it is savings, if any at all; this will inevitably result in many good to hear her views today. being forced to borrow money to pay for their child care New clause 2 is about the Bill’s impact on child care up front. We should be under no illusion: that could be costs, an issue that we discussed at some length in a hefty sum, and if child care costs are higher during Committee. The new clause would require the Government school holidays, further loans may be required to meet to publish a review of the Bill’s impact on the cost of those costs. This runs the obvious risk of forging a cycle child care three months after it passed into law, and of dependence. Reporting requirements for universal every three years thereafter. The review would have a credit are significantly greater than those for either tax particular focus on the effectiveness of the Act in making credits or tax-free child care, and any failure to report in child care more affordable, the average cost of child care time will lead to the loss of all payments for that for working parents, and the impact of supply-led measures assessment period. on costs. As I have said many times in debates on this Bill, the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Does the hon. Gentleman Government have made a clear commitment to review not think it strange that in this time of austerity and the impact of the scheme two years after full everything else that we hear about, the Government implementation. That was set out in the impact assessment have come forward, under this Bill, with a child care published alongside the Bill. The Government feel that payment scheme that gives more, including more flexibility, a two-year assessment period is reasonable and will to those who have more? I am thinking of the bankable allow sufficient time for the scheme to become bedded allowances and so on. Compare that with what the in, so that the full impacts can be assessed and properly Government are providing, in terms of child care, under evaluated in the context of wider Government policy. the universal credit rules. It really is one scheme for the We do not think that there is anything to be gained from better-off, and another, much worse scheme for the less adding a further review after only three months. well-off. I think that all hon. and right hon. Members are rightly concerned about the impact that high child care Alex Cunningham: I most certainly do agree with my costs have on working parents. We understand the cost hon. Friend. It is a peculiar world—I would use the of child care, and the Government are committed to word “bonkers”—when someone earning £100,000 can supporting parents to meet that cost; that is the purpose benefit more from a new Government scheme than of the Bill. somebody on perhaps £20,000. It is important that the Government think again on some of these points. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I assume that the Let us not forget that families on higher incomes will Minister and her team will watch this very closely from get their child care accounts topped up by the Government the start. She may not need a review: if she saw something before they have to pay their provider, so the rich get going wrong, she would take immediate action to correct paid up front, while the poor do not get any payment at it, before the two-year point. all. One possible solution that could be explored further is the provision of child care accounts and tax-free child Priti Patel: I thank my hon. Friend for his comment. care to families in receipt of child care support through Naturally, we want to get this right, so there is oversight tax credits or universal credit. Allowing these claimants at every level. Later in my remarks, I shall touch on to use child care accounts to receive their payments of areas where his remarks are valid and pertinent. child care costs would allow receipt in advance of We know that child care is an expensive outgoing for payment, but without the risk of any overpayments many families across the country. This Government being lost within wider family budgets. However, as understand the need for both demand and supply-led things stand, the Bill would not permit that without measures to ensure that the costs of child care do additional primary legislation. These minor amendments not spiral out of control. We have been taking steps to clauses 11 and 15 would allow the tax-free child care to ensure that both sides of the problem are properly scheme to go forward as designed, while allowing us the considered. The Government believe that increasing time to consult and to assess these issues fully. We supply is an effective way of limiting further price rises, would have the flexibility to make changes by regulation, and are therefore making significant reforms to support rather than through additional primary legislation. the child care sector in increasing the supply of places. Universal credit is still in its infancy and is being The Government are taking actions beyond the scope gradually rolled out. It seems to make little sense to of the Bill to improve the quality and supply of child limit how it may evolve by putting barriers, in the form care provision. These reforms are designed to ensure of primary legislation, in the way of what may be that any increase in demand for child care arising from sensible reforms. I would like to hear from the Minister the new scheme will be matched by increased supply what further considerations she has given to extending and not by increased costs. The latest figures show that the tax-free child care scheme in this way, and expanding there are about 100,000 more child care places than in child care accounts beyond the scheme. I hope that she 2009, and the Government are taking action to grow 93 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 94 the supply of child care still further, which will improve Alison McGovern: The Minister mentions universal choice and affordability for parents. For example, we credit and making work pay—for too many families I are making start-up grants of up to £2 million available only wish it did. Will she comment on the role of to help people set up new child care businesses. We are universal credit in discouraging dual earners? In the also enabling good and outstanding childminders to context of this child care debate, does she think the access funding for early education places. Only 4,000 do Government should look again at its operation? so currently, but as a result of our reforms, up to 32,000 will be automatically eligible. We are making it simpler Priti Patel: We had much debate in Committee on and easier for schools and child care providers to work universal credit and the way in which the scheme interacts together to increase the amount of child care available with it. The hon. Member for Manchester Central on school sites, and only this year we have introduced (Lucy Powell) made some strong and valid contributions childminder agencies, which are designed to improve in this regard. the support available for both childminders and parents, Amendment 12, tabled by the hon. Member for Stockton and to simplify existing regulatory frameworks to allow North (Alex Cunningham), would allow regulations in nurseries to expand more easily. future to permit parents to receive support under the We recognise that child care costs place a significant new scheme and universal credit at the same time. As I financial burden on many families, but research shows have said, we must not forget that families in receipt of that after 12 years of consistently rising prices, the costs universal credit already rightly receive generous support of child care in England have stabilised for the first with their child care costs. Child care support is offered time. There is encouraging evidence that costs of some to parents on universal credit as part of a welfare of the most popular types of child care are falling in system designed to make sure that work pays and that England. For example, the Family and Childcare Trust those who need the support get it. Up to 300,000 more reported in March that the cost of nurseries in 2014 was people are likely to be in work as a result of universal 2% lower than the previous year in real terms. Similarly, credit, and we expect a significant proportion of those the cost of after-school clubs reduced by 5% in real to be households with children. But it is not right for a terms during the same period. Once inflation is taken parent to receive support under the new scheme in into account, costs for the majority of parents have addition to universal credit, when parents will receive fallen. This means that more parents are able to access 85% of their child care costs from April 2016. It will be affordable child care and support their families, and easy for parents to access support that best suits their shows that the Government’s reforms are making a circumstances, so I reassure the hon. Gentleman that difference. We should compare that with the situation parents who are eligible for universal credit will be able under Labour, when costs rose nearly 50% between to opt out and claim support under the new scheme 2002 and 2010, and the average cost of child care rose should they wish to do so. We shall be supporting faster than inflation. parents in making those decisions. Alongside these measures to increase the provision of As we said in Committee—hon. Members have touched good quality, affordable child care, the Government on it again today—we shall be launching the online have taken significant steps to support families in meeting support tools, the calculator and clear guidance. Draft their child care costs. guidance has been published well ahead of the launch of the scheme and shows our commitment to work in Alex Cunningham: I welcome the fact that more families close collaboration with parents, child care providers may well be able to access child care because of falling and employers, and their feedback will ensure that costs, but the costs are still high and they are paid by the guidance is tailored to meet their needs. poor as well as the rich. Will the Minister please outline This is about ensuring that support remains focused what she will do for the working poor who do not on those on lower incomes, and the introduction of the qualify for anything under any of her schemes? scheme gives parents confidence that as they increase their income and move off universal credit, they will continue to receive Government support with their Priti Patel: I will come on to the hon. Gentleman’s child care costs, which is vital. amendments and refer specifically to the points he makes. Alex Cunningham: I do not want to go over the top For low earners, the Government will continue to pay on this, but will the Minister please outline what help up to 70% of child care costs through working tax she proposes for families who do not qualify for anything credit, and under universal credit this support will be at the moment but who are still the working poor? extended to up to 85% of costs when both parents are working, as all hon. Members heard in Committee. In Priti Patel: There is support that remains focused on addition, as we have touched on, the Government fund those on lower incomes. As I said at length in Committee, an early years entitlement of £15 a week. the Government’s overall child care system is very much The Government are making good progress in tackling focused on those on lower incomes, and it is wrong to the root causes of child poverty, to which the hon. suggest that that is not the case. Families in receipt of Member for Wirral South referred. All Governments tax credits receive more generous support with child are committed to ending child poverty once and for all, care costs. We have already discussed universal credit, but I reiterate that work remains the best route out of which is being extended to cover up to 85% of the costs poverty. We discussed this at length in Committee, of child care. All the analysis shows that the benefits of including the interactions between universal credit, making the scheme are focused on households on lower incomes. work pay, and interdepartmental measures on child The new scheme ensures that for the first time parents poverty. can be certain that support will be available for them; 95 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 96

[Priti Patel] and we have had the full assessment and evaluation, we will look at all its aspects. I hope that I have given the yes, obviously, at the lower end, but importantly, as they hon. Gentleman sufficient reassurance. I ask him to move into work and increase their incomes too. The withdraw his amendment and Labour Front Benchers scheme is much more fairly targeted than the existing to withdraw their new clause. scheme of employer-supported child care. It supports Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:— working families, getting households and families back into work. It was debated at length in Committee, and I The House divided: Ayes 208, Noes 272. reassure the hon. Gentleman that that is the case. Division No. 81] [7.43 pm Today’s debate has shown that the Government are taking a broad range of actions to support families with AYES the costs of child care, not just through this scheme, but Abbott, Ms Diane Evans, Chris through improvements in the welfare scheme— Abrahams, Debbie Farrelly, Paul Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Field, rh Mr Frank Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): In considering how Alexander, Heidi Fitzpatrick, Jim Ali, Rushanara Flint, rh Caroline the Government can best take this forward, will the Allen, Mr Graham Flynn, Paul Minister take account of the fact that whenever the Ashworth, Jonathan Fovargue, Yvonne Northern Ireland Assembly debated the legislative consent Austin, Ian Francis, Dr Hywel motion, there was much confusion, even on the part of Bailey, Mr Adrian Galloway, George the junior Minister, about its impact on child care in Bain, Mr William Gapes, Mike Northern Ireland? Child care provision in Northern Banks, Gordon Gilmore, Sheila Ireland has a different profile from here, and it seems Barron, rh Kevin Glindon, Mrs Mary that the Government’s scheme will lead to degrees of Bayley, Hugh Godsiff, Mr Roger confusion and uncertainty, particularly for existing schemes Beckett, rh Margaret Goodman, Helen that are well favoured. Begg, Dame Anne Greatrex, Tom Berger, Luciana Greenwood, Lilian Betts, Mr Clive Griffith, Nia Priti Patel: I take this opportunity to re-emphasise Blackman-Woods, Roberta Gwynne, Andrew that the scheme in no way creates confusion. In Committee Blears, rh Hazel Hain, rh Mr Peter we touched briefly on the situation in Northern Ireland Blenkinsop, Tom Hamilton, Mr David and provided information and guidance in that regard. Blomfield, Paul Hamilton, Fabian This is about working with all the players—parents, Blunkett, rh Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David employers, and other stakeholders. It is about making Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Harris, Mr Tom the system abundantly clear and simple, not about Brown, Lyn Havard, Mr Dai complexity. Guidance has been drafted. We are working Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Healey, rh John with third parties. We are designing a calculator tool, as Brown, Mr Russell Hepburn, Mr Stephen we have discussed before. This is all about giving guidance Buck, Ms Karen Hermon, Lady and providing clarity. Byrne, rh Mr Liam Heyes, David Campbell, rh Mr Alan Hillier, Meg I shall briefly cover amendments 3 to 11 on families Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodgson, Mrs Sharon in receipt of tax credits. The child care element of tax Champion, Sarah Hoey, Kate credits is just one component of the package of support Chapman, Jenny Hood, Mr Jim designed to help lower-income households. I emphasise Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hosie, Stewart that there is support for those on low incomes, in Clwyd, rh Ann Howarth, rh Mr George particular. We should reflect on the fact that under the Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw new scheme more working families than ever before will Connarty, Michael James, Mrs Siân C. be eligible for support with child care costs. The scheme Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy will be an important component of the overall offer to Crausby, Mr David Jarvis, Dan working families. It will sit alongside existing schemes Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana to ensure that support is available to those increasing Cryer, John Jones, Helen their incomes as they move off benefits. Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Cunningham, Mr Jim Kane, Mike Alex Cunningham: Does the Minister not see any Cunningham, Sir Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald advantage in leaving the door open by amending the Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Bill to allow for the scheme to be extended at a later Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz stage? As I said in my speech, it will take primary Danczuk, Simon Lammy, rh Mr David legislation to extend the scheme any further, whereas David, Wayne Lavery, Ian she could accept an amendment that would mean that Davies, Geraint Lazarowicz, Mark the door was open to simple, straightforward regulation De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris instead. Dobson, rh Frank Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Docherty, Thomas Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Love, Mr Andrew Priti Patel: I commend the hon. Gentleman for his Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Ian tenacity in making that point again, as is absolutely Doughty, Stephen MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan right and proper. I reiterate that the Government are Doyle, Gemma Mactaggart, Fiona committed to reviewing the scheme, as I have outlined Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Mr Khalid previously in Committee and during today’s debates on Durkan, Mark Mahmood, Shabana new clauses 1 and 2. It has to be right and proper to Eagle, Maria Malhotra, Seema have that review. Once the scheme has bedded down Esterson, Bill Mann, John 97 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 98

Marsden, Mr Gordon Robertson, John Collins, Damian Hinds, Damian McCabe, Steve Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Colvile, Oliver Hoban, Mr Mark McCann, Mr Michael Rotheram, Steve Crockart, Mike Hollobone, Mr Philip McCarthy, Kerry Roy, Mr Frank Davey, rh Mr Edward Hopkins, Kris McDonagh, Siobhain Ruane, Chris Davies, David T. C. Horwood, Martin McDonald, Andy Sarwar, Anas (Monmouth) Howarth, Sir Gerald McDonnell, John Sawford, Andy Davies, Glyn Howell, John McGovern, Alison Seabeck, Alison Davies, Philip Hughes, rh Simon McGovern, Jim Sharma, Mr Virendra Davis, rh Mr David Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Sheerman, Mr Barry de Bois, Nick Hunter, Mark McInnes, Liz Shuker, Gavin Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian McKechin, Ann Skinner, Mr Dennis Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick McKenzie, Mr Iain Slaughter, Mr Andy Doyle-Price, Jackie Jackson, Mr Stewart McKinnell, Catherine Smith, Angela Drax, Richard James, Margot Meale, Sir Alan Smith, Owen Duncan, rh Sir Alan Jenrick, Robert Miller, Andrew Spellar, rh Mr John Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Joseph Mitchell, Austin Straw, rh Mr Jack Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Andrew Moon, Mrs Madeleine Stuart, Ms Gisela Ellis, Michael Jones, rh Mr David Morden, Jessica Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Ellison, Jane Jones, Mr Marcus Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Tami, Mark Morris, Grahame M. Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Thomas, Mr Gareth (Easington) Evans, Graham Knight, rh Sir Greg Timms, rh Stephen Mudie, Mr George Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Trickett, Jon Munn, Meg Evennett, Mr David Lamb, rh Norman Turner, Karl Murphy, rh Mr Jim Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Murphy, rh Paul Twigg, Derek Fallon, rh Michael Latham, Pauline Murray, Ian Twigg, Stephen Featherstone, rh Lynne Leadsom, Andrea Nandy, Lisa Vaz, rh Keith Field, Mark Lee, Jessica Nash, Pamela Vaz, Valerie Foster, rh Mr Don Lefroy, Jeremy O’Donnell, Fiona Watson, Mr Tom Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Charlotte Osborne, Sandra Watts, Mr Dave Freeman, George Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Owen, Albert Weir, Mr Mike Freer, Mike Lewis, Brandon Pearce, Teresa Whitehead, Dr Alan Fullbrook, Lorraine Lewis, Dr Julian Perkins, Toby Williams, Hywel Fuller, Richard Lidington, rh Mr David Phillipson, Bridget Williamson, Chris Gale, Sir Roger Lilley, rh Mr Peter Pound, Stephen Winnick, Mr David Garnier, Sir Edward Lloyd, Stephen Powell, Lucy Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Garnier, Mark Lopresti, Jack Qureshi, Yasmin Wishart, Pete Gibb, Mr Nick Luff, Sir Peter Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wood, Mike Gilbert, Stephen Maude, rh Mr Francis Reed, Mr Jamie Woodcock, John Glen, John Maynard, Paul Goldsmith, Zac McCartney, Jason Reed, Mr Steve Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Reeves, Rachel Goodwill, Mr Robert McCartney, Karl Wright, David Reynolds, Emma Gove, rh Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Wright, Mr Iain Reynolds, Jonathan Graham, Richard McVey, rh Esther Riordan, Mrs Linda Tellers for the Ayes: Grant, Mrs Helen Menzies, Mark Ritchie, Ms Margaret Graham Jones and Gray, Mr James Metcalfe, Stephen Robertson, Angus Phil Wilson Grayling, rh Chris Miller, rh Maria Green, rh Damian Mills, Nigel NOES Greening, rh Justine Milton, Anne Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Moore, rh Michael Afriyie, Adam Bradley, Karen Griffiths, Andrew Mordaunt, Penny Aldous, Peter Brady, Mr Graham Gummer, Ben Morris, Anne Marie Amess, Mr David Bray, Angie Gyimah, Mr Sam Morris, David Andrew, Stuart Bridgen, Andrew Hague, rh Mr William Morris, James Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brine, Steve Halfon, Robert Mowat, David Bacon, Mr Richard Brokenshire, James Hames, Duncan Mulholland, Greg Baker, Steve Brooke, rh Annette Hammond, Stephen Mundell, rh David Baldwin, Harriett Browne, Mr Jeremy Hancock, Mr Mike Munt, Tessa Barclay, Stephen Bruce, Fiona Hands, rh Greg Murray, Sheryll Barker, rh Gregory Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Harper, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Bebb, Guto Buckland, Mr Robert Harris, Rebecca Newton, Sarah Beith, rh Sir Alan Burns, Conor Hart, Simon Nokes, Caroline Benyon, Richard Burns, rh Mr Simon Harvey, Sir Nick Norman, Jesse Beresford, Sir Paul Burt, rh Alistair Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Nuttall, Mr David Berry, Jake Burt, Lorely Hayes, rh Mr John O’Brien, rh Mr Stephen Bingham, Andrew Cairns, Alun Heald, Sir Oliver Offord, Dr Matthew Binley, Mr Brian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Heath, Mr David Ollerenshaw, Eric Birtwistle, Gordon Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heaton-Harris, Chris Opperman, Guy Blackman, Bob Carmichael, Neil Hemming, John Paice, rh Sir James Blackwood, Nicola Chishti, Rehman Henderson, Gordon Parish, Neil Bone, Mr Peter Clark, rh Greg Hendry, Charles Patel, Priti Bottomley, Sir Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse Herbert, rh Nick Paterson, rh Mr Owen 99 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 100

Pawsey, Mark Stuart, Mr Graham should do so. That means being in work, making their Penrose, John Stunell, rh Sir Andrew contribution and taking responsibility.We want to empower Percy, Andrew Sturdy, Julian people in their choices. As a mother myself, I strongly Perry, Claire Swales, Ian believe that child care costs should not be a barrier to Phillips, Stephen Swayne, rh Mr Desmond work. Since 2010 we have introduced a comprehensive Pincher, Christopher Swire, rh Mr Hugo package of measures to help working families cover Poulter, Dr Daniel Syms, Mr Robert Pugh, John Thornton, Mike nursery costs for their children. The new child care Raab, Mr Dominic Timpson, Mr Edward scheme will greatly expand the support we provide to Randall, rh Sir John Tomlinson, Justin working families towards their child care costs. Redwood, rh Mr John Tredinnick, David Even before the financial crisis, there were around Rees-Mogg, Jacob Truss, rh Elizabeth 5 million people in the United Kingdom of working age Reid, Mr Alan Turner, Mr Andrew on out-of-work benefits, some 1.4 million of whom Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Tyrie, Mr Andrew Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Uppal, Paul have spent the past decade unemployed. The number of Robertson, rh Sir Hugh Vaizey, Mr Edward households where no one had ever worked almost doubled Robertson, Mr Laurence Vara, Mr Shailesh between 1997 and 2010, so when we took office in 2010 Rogerson, Dan Vickers, Martin we made getting people back into work one of our key Rosindell, Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa priorities. We can be proud of some major successes. Rudd, Amber Walker, Mr Robin Figures from the Office for National Statistics have Ruffley, Mr David Wallace, Mr Ben shown that unemployment fell by 154,000 to below Russell, Sir Bob Watkinson, Dame Angela 1.97 million in the three months to the end of August, Rutley, David Webb, rh Steve the first time it has been below 2 million since 2008. Sanders, Mr Adrian Wharton, James Since 2010, the UK has created over 2 million more jobs Sandys, Laura Wheeler, Heather for people to go to—the fastest rate of job creation of Scott, Mr Lee White, Chris any major economy, or, as the Financial Times put it in Selous, Andrew Whittaker, Craig September, more jobs than the rest of the European Shapps, rh Grant Whittingdale, Mr John Union combined. Female participation in the work Sharma, Alok Willetts, rh Mr David Simmonds, Mark Williams, Roger force is at an all-time high, and we should welcome that. Simpson, Mr Keith Williams, Stephen As ever, there is more that can be done. If we had the Skidmore, Chris Williamson, Gavin same levels of men and women participating in the Smith, Chloe Willott, Jenny labour market, the OECD says that could lead to an Smith, Henry Wilson, Mr Rob increase in GDP of around 10% by 2030. Survey data Smith, Julian Wollaston, Dr Sarah from the Department for Education suggest that more Soames, rh Sir Nicholas Wright, rh Jeremy Soubry, Anna than half of mothers would prefer to be in paid employment Wright, Simon if they could arrange reliable, convenient, affordable, Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Yeo, Mr Tim Stanley, rh Sir John good quality child care. The Government are therefore Young, rh Sir George Stephenson, Andrew taking action to ensure that high quality child care is Zahawi, Nadhim Stewart, Bob available and affordable. We recognise that child care Stewart, Iain Tellers for the Noes: costs are a major part of most working families’ budgets Streeter, Mr Gary Tom Brake and so we are putting in place measures to help every Stride, Mel Gavin Barwell working family in the UK with their child care costs. We have almost doubled the amount of child care Question accordingly negatived. support available to most middle earners, and we are doing Third Reading even more for those on low pay. We are already funding 15 hours a week of free child care for every three and four-year-old, funding 15 hours a week of free child 7.55 pm care for 40% of two-year-olds, and increasing the child Priti Patel: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read care support for low income families to 85% under the Third time. universal credit. Now, this scheme will significantly The Bill has been many months in development through broaden access to child care support. Hundreds of consultation, drafting and detailed discussion in Parliament, thousands of families who are excluded from the current and I am sure the House will agree that it will leave the employer-supported child care scheme will be able to Commons in good shape. benefit from the scheme, and up to 200,000 self-employed parents will have access to child care support. Before I proceed, I would like to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education We have paid particular attention to designing the who, as Financial Secretary, was responsible for some scheme so that it suits the needs of part-time workers. of the key features of the scheme and introduced the Parents earning as little as £52 per week—averaged over Bill in the House of Commons in June. I spoke on a quarterly entitlement period, or over a tax year for Second Reading as a Back Bencher, and it is an honour self-employed parents—will qualify for support. for me to appear today as the Minister responsible for We do not believe, however, that providing direct the Bill. support to parents is the only way to address the high I welcome this further opportunity to speak on the cost of child care. That is best achieved by supporting Bill and to reflect on the important role it will play in the child care sector to increase supply, which will the Government’s broader strategy to get people into ensure that any increase in demand for child care will be work. One of our fundamental principles has been that matched by increased supply measures, rather than just every person who can stand on their own two feet increased costs. 101 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 102

The latest figures show there are now 100,000 more Additional measures on living standards include freezing child care places than there were in 2009. We are making council tax in real terms and cutting the cost of driving by start-up grants available to help people set up new child freezing fuel duty until the end of this Parliament, saving care businesses. We have made up to 32,000 good and a typical motorist £680. We recently announced that the outstanding childminders automatically eligible for early cost of driving licences will also be cut. Ultimately, however, education funding. We are making it simpler and easier as every family knows, the best way to raise living for schools and child care providers to work together to standards is by being in work, and we are pulling out all increase the amount of child care available on school the stops to help those who want to work get into work by sites before and after school. Only this year, we have making work pay and introducing this Bill, which provides created childminder agencies, which will improve the important financial measures to support child care. support available both for childminders and for parents, I thank all Members for the opportunity to debate all and simplified existing regulatory frameworks to allow the issues associated with child poverty as the Bill has nurseries to expand more easily. passed through the House. Child poverty is an extremely The evidence shows that our reforms are having an important issue and this Government are fully committed effect. After 12 years of consistently rising prices, the to the goal of ending child poverty in the UK by the end costs of child care in England have stabilised for the of 2020. first time. Indeed, the costs of some of the most popular types of child care in England are now falling. Once Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): As my inflation is taken into account, costs for the majority of hon. Friend the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) said parents have actually fallen, which means that more on Report, the Northern Ireland Assembly has already parents are able to access affordable child care and debated the legislative consent motion, which will enable support their families. By contrast, the costs of some enactment of the legislation in Northern Ireland. Does types of care have risen in Scotland and Wales, where the Minister accept that there are fewer opportunities to these reforms do not apply. access child care in Northern Ireland and fewer job opportunities? Will she consider allowing the other As we have discussed in previous debates on the Bill, place to debate the extension of the child care voucher child care costs are not the only pressure on family scheme so that it can remain in place while the measures budgets. We can never forget the impact of the 2008 are being implemented and both the scheme and the recession and its effect on incomes for every household. Bill can run concurrently?

Alex Cunningham: I welcome the fact that prices are Priti Patel: I will come on to Northern Ireland in a coming down and that more places are available, but the moment, because I want to finish addressing child vast majority of the new jobs to which the Exchequer poverty. Our child poverty strategy 2014-17, which was Secretary has referred are low-paid, part-time, insecure published in June, outlines our plans to tackle the root and involve zero-hours contracts and similar, which do causes of child poverty, including parents being out of not make anybody’s life easier as they consider care for work, low earnings and educational failure. That approach their children. Perhaps that is why we are seeing an reflects the reality of child poverty today and, importantly, overspend of many millions of pounds in the Government’s reflects our determination to achieve lasting change to social security budget. protect the poorest in our society. The evidence is clear that work remains the best route Priti Patel: I re-emphasise a point I have made out of poverty, and children are three times as likely to consistently throughout the passage of the Bill: the be in poverty if they live in a workless family. That is Government’s overall system of child care remains focused why we are taking decisive action to make work pay and on those who are on lower incomes. We are concentrating reform the welfare system. We have touched on universal on supporting families getting into work and ensuring, credit, the child care support we are providing and as we have touched on in previous debates, not only that increasing the national minimum wage. work pays, but that child care remains focused on those This is a complex, multifaceted problem, and it would on lower incomes. be wrong to suggest that there is a silver bullet. We have Living standards—the cash in people’s pockets and made good progress, but there is more to do in tackling what they can buy with it—are perhaps the biggest issue child poverty. The Bill will support this Government’s facing British families. The tough decisions we have taken efforts to tackle the root causes of one of our greatest as a Government have a very clear end in mind, which is social ills. to help create prosperity and boost living standards. I am grateful to all those who have participated in the Alongside that, we want to make sure that the Government debates on the Bill. I welcome the support from both have the right measures to support working families sides of the House for this important new scheme, and households and to ensure that work pays. which marks such an improvement on the current support Since coming to power, this Government have taken available to parents. I am particularly delighted that the decisive action to ease the pressure on households and Northern Ireland Assembly recently voted in favour of families. We are providing free school meals for all infant a legislative consent motion to enable the scheme to be school pupils in reception year and in years 1 and 2. We available to families in Northern Ireland in the same have increased the personal allowance to £10,000 and in way as it will be to families elsewhere in the UK. That April 2015 it will increase to £10,500. During the course was entirely a matter for the Assembly, which has given of this Parliament, we have cut the income tax of the the scheme a positive vote of confidence. typical taxpayer by £805, taking more than 3.2 million I understand that the Offices of the First Minister individuals out of income tax by 2015-16 and boosting and of the deputy First Minister will consider the impact the money that 25 million people take home. of the scheme and its interaction with other initiatives 103 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 104

[Priti Patel] work and family lives—is clearly welcome. The Bill is therefore important, but it is long overdue for thousands in the context of wider work on the development of of parents. their own child care strategy, so it would be inappropriate Fundamentally, we remain concerned that the Bill for me to make further comment on those devolved will simply not address the situation in which too many matters. Obviously, that is work in progress. parents have been left. The evidence is now overwhelming. During all stages of the Bill, we have consulted The cumulative changes to tax and benefits over the widely on the design of the scheme over the past year. Government’s time in office have hit families hardest, as We have listened to feedback from parents, employers, is clearly shown by new research published today. From the child care industry and all stakeholders. our analysis of official statistics, we know that some Following those discussions, we are already making families in which both parents are in work will be several changes. We are rolling the scheme out to families £2,000 a year worse off on average by the next election more quickly. Within a year of its introduction, all as a direct result of the Government’s tax and benefits families will be able to apply for support, which is choices. Researchers from the London School of Economics significantly faster than the previously announced timetable and the university of Essex have released findings showing for the roll-out, of seven years. There is a more generous that the clear losers under the Government are lone-parent cap so that families can receive up to £2,000 of Government families, large families and children. support per child. We are making the scheme available This summer, the Prime Minister announced that all throughout periods of paid and unpaid parental leave, Government policies have to pass a families test. It is and we are making changes to the minimum income interesting that that is his aspiration only now, because level to support those in self-employment. We are extending it is abundantly clear that the Government have completely to 14 days the time during which parents can access the failed the families test to date. We share the widely scheme before starting work. I have committed to looking expressed concern that the Bill will not go anything like at the cap with reference to the costs of caring for far enough to make up the shortfall that families face, disabled children. partly because of the tax and benefits changes, but also The scheme will not only deliver valued support to because of soaring child care costs. hard-working families, but it will do so in a way that Aside from that central issue, we have several other works for parents. It will be a smooth, simple and secure concerns. We are worried that parents will be left exposed scheme. From the outset, it has been designed to have to inflated child care prices, as my hon. Friend the parents at its heart. Rather than requiring parents to Member for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) clearly report changes of circumstances in real time, the scheme set out in her speech on new clause 2. The Government will be based on quarterly entitlement periods. That will have only one chance to get the hugely important IT give parents the certainty that they will continue to be infrastructure right, but crucially there is huge concern eligible for support for three months at a time, regardless that parents might face a nightmare of complexity and of any unexpected changes in their circumstances. For confusion if the Government fail to provide adequate parents to reconfirm for the next quarter will simply support and information to help them to make informed take a few clicks through the system that we are designing choices and to navigate between the schemes for universal and setting up. Those are just some of the ways in which credit and for the top-up payments. we have engaged with stakeholders and, importantly, Welcome though the support is, for far too many learned lessons from the experience of tax credits. Our parents it will be far too little, far too late. I hope that ambition is for the new scheme to represent a real step the Minister has taken on board the concerns we raised change in user experience. throughout the proceedings in Committee and on Report, The scheme will be a vast improvement on the current whether on some of the more technical aspects of the employer-supported child care scheme, which provides Bill’s operation or on the more fundamental issues. support to a limited number of employees. As well as being available much more widely, it will be better targeted, Ms Ritchie: My hon. Friend is making some compelling make payments on a fairer basis—on the number of points. Is she aware of research by the Resolution children, rather than the number of adults—and will be Foundation that found that 80% of the families who will much more efficient. That is why we will close the benefit from the top-up payments available through the current scheme to new entrants when the scheme is tax-free child care scheme are in the top 40% of the introduced, although those who already receive support income distribution scale, and that the remaining 20% will under it can stay in it, if they so choose, for as long as go to families in the middle of it? How will the scheme they wish. help those on low incomes, lone parents and those with As a result of the Bill, more working families than large families? ever will be eligible for Government support with their child care costs. Our proposals have been welcomed by Catherine McKinnell: My hon. Friend has herself families and child care providers around the country. made the point very powerfully. I was concerned when The Bill represents an important part of the Government’s the Minister spoke at length about child poverty because strategy to get people into work, and I commend it to the Bill will do very little to deal with such issues, and the House. we know that such figures will only increase. Levels of child poverty have increased significantly under this Government, as the facts and evidence prove. 8.12 pm Although we should focus on what the Bill will Catherine McKinnell: Any new investment in child achieve—it will provide support in meeting demand for care—particularly support for struggling families up some payments for child care—my hon. Friend clearly and down the country who are battling to juggle their sets out which parents will benefit most from the support. 105 Childcare Payments Bill17 NOVEMBER 2014 Childcare Payments Bill 106

However, even those parents are concerned that the arguments, both today and in Committee, about the scheme might unduly complicate their lives. It might be particular needs of disabled children. None of us could burdensome for parents to navigate it, particularly those have anything but admiration for the hon. Member for at the lower end of the income scale who have to Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), navigate between a reduction in universal credit support who obviously has her own interest in child care issues. and a movement into the top-up payments scheme, She has led from the Opposition Benches incredibly well. where potentially disastrous child care support pitfalls await them. We discussed that at length in Committee My hon. Friend the Minister is right to say that child and we have put our concerns on the record. Other care costs should not be a barrier to work for parents, Opposition Members and I very much hope that the and the Bill goes further than ever before to help achieve Minister has taken all such concerns on board and can what we all want—for parents to have the opportunity deliver on the reassurances that she has given. to go back to work after they have had children, or to continue in employment when they have children of a Let me take this last opportunity to urge the Government young age. I am glad that the Opposition will support to recognise the value to parents not only of this support this important Bill tonight, because child care costs are with child care costs, but of the extension of the free not a problem only for those on very low wages; they entitlement to three and four-year-olds. Quite simply, are a problem for almost all the parents I have talked to, that would ensure that working parents are better off. It and it is right for the Government to consider how to would help more parents to get back into work or to address it. work more hours, and it would help to bring home more pay for the hours they work. We know that so Under this Government, more women are in work many parents are desperate for such support. It would than ever before and, interestingly, the cost of child care be simple and effective, and it would not place any more for parents is falling—perhaps those two issues are not burdens on parents than those they already face. It entirely separate. The Government have set the standard would not add any more complexity to a child care when it comes to enhancements for child care, not only market that is already hugely complicated. by taking on what the Labour Government put in place, Parents have struggled for four years under this but frankly by going a great deal further: free entitlement Government with a child care crunch of rising prices to 15 hours a week of early years care for four and alongside stagnant wages. Although we will support the five-year-olds and 40% of two-year-olds; new support Bill tonight, I urge the Minister to ensure that she, her under universal credit; and tax-free child care, which officials and her partners who deliver the scheme fulfil will mean that for the first time ever, people who are the promises that have been made during its passage in self-employed can get access to important child care Committee so that parents can receive this much needed help and support when running their own businesses. support. I disagree with comments made by the hon. Member I look forward to the arrival, in 2015, of a Labour for Newcastle upon Tyne North about the Prime Minister Government who will ensure that parents receive not and the families test, because I think the Bill passes that only the support provided in the Bill, but an additional test with flying colours. It shows that we have been 10 hours of free child care for three and four-year-olds. listening to parents and families, and that the Government That will deal with many of the supply-side and price have acted. inflation concerns, and it will also provide child care support for the parents who will not benefit at all from Parents want choice on child care—the Minister knows the scheme. that, as do the Government. We all want child care that will fit around our children’s lives and needs and our 8.19 pm family life. I believe that the Bill takes us one step further towards giving freedom to parents to choose the Maria Miller: It has been a privilege to have served child care they want and need for their children. That on the Bill Committee, and I pay tribute to the two hon. will provide an enduring framework for changes to Ladies who have led the debate. My hon. Friend the child care in the future. I hope the Minister will come Minister has navigated us through the Bill with incredible back to the Dispatch Box when the Bill becomes an style. She has listened to the arguments, acted on what Act, and say how we can use it as a framework to she has heard and understood the importance of flexibility provide further support in the future. I am sure she will. for parents in this scheme. Question put and agreed to. The Minister also listened closely to the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) and his powerful Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. 107 17 NOVEMBER 2014 108

Business without Debate Christina Edkins Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House DELEGATED LEGISLATION do now adjourn.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) 8.24 pm Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With the leave of the House, we shall take motions 2 to 7 together. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing The murder of Christina Edkins on 7 March 2013 in a Order No. 118(6), random knife attack on the No. 9 bus, while travelling from Birmingham to school in my constituency, was a devastating blow to her family, friends and the community TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT where she lived in Birmingham, and where she went to That the draft Shared Parental Leave and Paternity and Adoption school in Halesowen. Nobody could imagine the depth Leave (Adoptions from Overseas) Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on 13 October, be approved. of pain and anguish that the Edkins family have had to suffer, and I will read an extract from their victim That the draft Paternity, Adoption and Shared Parental Leave (Parental Order Cases) Regulations 2014, which were laid before impact statement: this House on 13 October, be approved. “The school have been wonderful and so have all of Christina’s friends, who have also been affected by her death. They wanted us That the draft Employment Rights Act 1996 (Application of to come to the Prom for Christina, but we couldn’t do it, it would Sections 75G and 75H to Adoptions from Overseas) Regulations 2014, have been too difficult…Some months after her death, we had a which were laid before this House on 13 October, be approved. parcel delivered—it was Christina’s exam results, she had done That the draft Statutory Shared Parental Pay (Parental Order really well. Also enclosed was the school year book, where Cases) Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on Christina was included, and at the back they had done a tribute 13 October, be approved. page to her. There was a poem and lots of photographs of her and That the draft Employment Rights Act 1996 (Application of a quote by her headmaster ‘if a school could choose its pupils, it Sections 75A, 75B, 75G, 75H, 80A and 80B to Parental Order would be full of Christinas’…Our family are so devastated I don’t Cases) Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on know how we will get over what has happened. We are a big family 13 October, be approved. and no one has been left untouched. Christina loved her family That the draft Statutory Shared Parental Pay (Adoption from and her cousins—they all called her CJ. Our lives have been Overseas) Regulations 2014, which were laid before this House on changed beyond all belief by that knock on the door on 7 March 13 October, be approved. —(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) 2013. Our lives will never be the same and I don’t know what we will do without our precious daughter Christina.” Question agreed to. At first, the focus following this act was on the use of a knife in the attack by Phillip Simelane. Immediately BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE after the incident I called on the Prime Minister in Prime Ordered, Minister’s questions to tighten knife laws, and I supported an amendment to the Criminal Courts and Justice Bill, That at the sitting on Wednesday 19 November paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments) shall apply which has significantly strengthened our knife laws. to the Motion in the name of Edward Miliband as if the day were It became clear when matters were brought to court an Opposition Day; proceedings on the Motion may continue, that Phillip Simelane was unable to make a plea because though opposed, for three hours and shall then lapse if not he was considered too mentally ill to do so. In September previously disposed of; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred 2013 he appeared in court, and in October 2013 he was divisions) shall not apply.—(Dr Thérèse Coffey.) convicted of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility and detained in a psychiatric hospital. During court proceedings, the judge at Birmingham Crown court raised a number of issues and questions about the mental health of Simelane. Why had he not been admitted to a psychiatric hospital? Why had he been discharged from HMP Birmingham without any follow up? Why did the services he was involved with prior to being admitted to HMP Hewell not deem him to require treatment. As a result of questions raised by the trial judge, Birmingham and Solihull Mental Health NHS Foundation Trust initiated a serious incident review. Culminating in the report chaired by Dr Alison Reed, the review revealed more than a decade of contact by services with Phillip Simelane, including Birmingham and Solihull mental health trust, the Black Country Partnership mental health trust, Sandwell social services, Worcestershire Health and Care NHS Trust, Phillip Simelane’s GP, the West Midlands police, Sandwell Women’s Aid, HMP Hewell in Birmingham, the Crown Prosecution Service, and Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. The report revealed a litany of service and system failures that led it to conclude: “The homicide of Christina by P was directly related to his mental illness and could have been prevented if his mental health needs had been identified and met.” 109 Christina Edkins17 NOVEMBER 2014 Christina Edkins 110

The report revealed a lack of co-ordination between agencies involved to share crucial information about services over a long period, from the time that problems Phillip Simelane. How do we ensure that we implement with Simelane were raised in school, through to his discharge a radical culture change so that there is a presumption from HMP Birmingham almost a decade later. It identified that relevant information will be shared across agencies? the complete breakdown of communication between Will the Minister consider a potential role for the different services that came into contact with Simelane Care Quality Commission, as part of its inspection over a 10-year period. It identified the unrealistic responsibilities, to ensure that that happens? How do responsibility that was placed on Simelane and his we move to a more systematic and standardised assessment mother—to whom he had made several violent threats of risk that properly pulls together different perspectives and actions—to initiate and engage with health care and evaluations of individuals such as Phillip Simelane? services, including his GP, child and adolescent mental The interaction of Simelane with the child and adolescent health services, and the Prison Service, when it became mental health services reveals some well known limitations increasingly clear that Simelane was not in a position to of, and issues with, those services. How do we approach judge his own mental health needs. the treatment of people who, at one stage in their life, Paragraph 64 of the report illustrates one of the are deemed to be below threshold? How do we overcome issues. On 26 March 2009, Phillip Simelane’s GP called poor communication and lack of information sharing his mother on the telephone. The report says: between GPs, schools, services and the voluntary sector? “There was a further discussion about whether P was involved Will the Minister commit to a review of CAMHS, with drugs, but she had not discovered any illicit substances. It building on the recent Health Committee report on was reported to the GP that P had admitted to using alcohol/cannabis their functioning to take into account the particular in the past. The GP recorded that the plan was to refer P to the examples in the report on Simelane? BCPFT Community Mental Health Team and ask them to assess P soon. The BCPFT Oldbury & Smethwick Community Mental The report reveals significant failings in HMP Hewell Health Team sent an ‘opt in’ letter to P on 1 April 2009 asking and HMP Birmingham while Simelane was in prison. him to contact them to make a ‘mutually convenient appointment’ Again, there was a lack of information sharing, of care within the next 14 days. The letter also stated, ‘If we do not hear plans, of co-ordination and of communication, including— from you within two weeks, we will assume you do not need our incredibly—no notification of Simelane’s release from service’. On the 20th April 2009 the team wrote back to the GP prison to his GP. Can the Minister commit to working saying they had not had any response from P and were therefore discharging him back to the GP’s care. The case was closed. P did with colleagues in the Ministry of Justice to address the not receive any written confirmation that his case had been issue of mental health in prisons and to ensure that closed. On interview, the GP stated that if a GP expressed appropriate care plans are in place on release? Will the concerns to a mental health specialist about a patient, then at the Minister also reflect on the status of this report? It was very least the patient should be seen.” commissioned by the Birmingham and Solihull Mental My intention is to raise the serious problems with the Health NHS Foundation Trust and co-ordinated by idea that people should “opt in” to mental health care. the cross-Birmingham clinical commissioning group. It The next issue is the repeated failures of professionals was commissioned locally but has wide national across the agencies to determine Simelane’s future risk applicability. How can we ensure that the lessons of this to himself, his family and the public, with often report and its recommendations are implemented contradictory assessments of his mental health state nationally? over a 10-year period. Another issue is the lack of basic The family of Christina Edkins has written to NHS information sharing between agencies and within the England to raise concerns and to ask whether a further prison and courts system, leading to bad or confused independent inquiry is needed. Will the Minister commit decision making about the care—or lack of care—of tonight to discuss immediately with NHS England its Phillip Simelane. As an example, attempts were made in views on the need for a further independent inquiry as a 2012, some six months before the incident took place, matter of urgency? In the end, nothing will diminish the by the Black Country mental health trust crisis team to pain and anguish suffered by the family of Christina raise their concerns about Phillip Simelane with HMP Edkins, but those in positions of public responsibility Hewell, but these were not followed up. should now do everything they can to ensure that the One of the most devastating indictments in the report tragic circumstances of this case are not repeated. is that in October 2012 Simelane was released from HMP Hewell on licence, with no notification to his GP 8.37 pm of prescribed medication and no mental health follow-up. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman He was also discharged with only three days of anti- Lamb): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for psychotic medication. After he had reoffended while on Halesowen and Rowley Regis (James Morris) on securing licence, he was released from HMP Birmingham having this debate on this incredibly important and difficult been rendered homeless. An injunction was at his mother’s issue. He asked some specific questions. First, he talked address. Again, there was no notification to his GP about the failure of organisations to share information, from the Prison Service and no mental health follow-up. and I will develop my thoughts on that in due course. The failures identified in the report have a depressing He made a particular point about the role of the Care familiarity. The truth is that they are failings that have Quality Commission. Under the new inspection regime, been identified many times in previous reviews. We now the CQC will undertake much more detailed inspections have a duty to the memory of Christina Edkins and the of providers than has been the case in the past, and it anguish suffered by her family to act, and to do everything will be able to take into account issues such as the that we can to stop a repeat of this tragedy. importance of sharing information to ensure good care. I ask the Minister to take specific actions to address I will make sure it receives the Hansard report of this the concerns and failings highlighted in the report. debate, so it can take on board the specific points he First, we need to address the consistent failure of all makes. 111 Christina Edkins17 NOVEMBER 2014 Christina Edkins 112

[Norman Lamb] Headspace. We can learn lessons from the way services are commissioned and provided, and there is a lot we My hon. Friend talked about the importance of a can do to improve access to support in those earlier more systematic and standardised assessment of risk. years. That is one of the points the Government need to respond to in terms of the report. At the end of his speech he Moving on from the specific points my hon. Friend asked about the status of the report. It is clear that the raised, I should put on the record my horror at Christina’s report raises issues of both local and national significance. murder. I share his sentiments and wish to extend my It is incredibly important that the Government recognise personal sympathies to the family. What they must have that and seek to address and respond to the concerns been through is unimaginable, and my heart goes out to identified. I am happy to write to him to pursue that further, them. Christina Edkins was a happy, well-loved teenager but I am intent on ensuring that we respond as soon as with a bright future ahead of her. She was doing well possible where it is clear that there are national lessons academically, she played netball for the school team to be learned. This tragic case raises issues that have been and enjoyed writing. She had ambitions to become a raised before—they are not new. It is imperative for all midwife and was already working with young children of us to seek to address the issues identified in the report. in a nursery school. Her death was tragic. We should all be able to go about our daily lives without fear of My hon. Friend raised a concern about individuals violence. who do not hit the threshold for admission to secondary care. He also asked whether I would be prepared to As Dr Reed’s report says, the attack was random and review child and adolescent mental health services. I am unprovoked. The question is whether it was preventable. pleased to say that in the summer I announced a taskforce As my hon. Friend made clear, Phillip Simelane’s mother to review the way in which CAMHS operate. I do not tried for many years to get him the help she knew he think that the way we commission or organise CAMHS needed. The system has let down that family as well as is fit for purpose. There is a need for a fundamental the victim’s family, and one’s heart goes out to his review of how the services are organised and commissioned. mother for what she must have gone through, having The findings of the report can absolutely feed into that tried so hard to get help over many years. She herself taskforce. suffered a number of attacks by Phillip, and she knew that his mental state was deteriorating and tried to get I would just like to dwell on some of the issues we help. We cannot say what would have happened had she need to look at in the taskforce process. At the moment, been successful, but it could hardly have been worse four organisations are involved in the commissioning of than what took place in March 2013. I am sure I speak services for children and young people: local authorities, for everyone here when I say that my heartfelt sympathies schools, clinical commissioning groups and NHS England. go out to the families of both Christina Edkins and The fragmented arrangement for commissioning care Phillip Simelane. does not lead to the best chance of joined-up services and that fundamentally needs to change. We recognise Nothing we can do can return Christina to her family, that it is very clear that only a minority of youngsters but as my hon. Friend said, we can ensure that lessons who have mental health problems receive access to any are learned and that appropriate action is taken to service at all. That has been the case for a very long prevent, as far as is humanly possible, any similar event time, but it does not make it right. from happening again. This afternoon, I met Dr Reed, It is clear that many interventions deployed with who wrote the homicide report into Christina’s death, youngsters have a very strong evidence base. For example, and discussed with her at length both her report and the early intervention in psychosis—after the first episode importance of responding to the recommendations raised of psychosis—can stop deterioration occurring. However, in it. Lessons can be learned from this tragic incident, around the country the position is variable. In some both locally and nationally, and we are considering the areas there is access to good services, but in other areas national recommendations in the report. As well as there is either no service at all or people have to wait a explaining some of the actions today, I would be happy very long time. I am therefore very pleased that the to write to my hon. Friend setting out in more detail Prime Minister announced in October the introduction, what action the Government are taking to address the for the first time, of an access waiting time standard of recommendations. I want us to be clear about the time two weeks for early intervention in psychosis. We start scale for responding more fully and about what actions with 50% of everyone who experiences an episode of might follow a formal written response. psychosis. In future years, the aim would be to raise that Before I turn to the specifics of the report, I would percentage so that as many people as possible have first like to touch on the importance of parity of esteem access to support as fast as possible, and access to a for mental health, which has long been a personal service that is evidence-based, NICE-based and approved. priority of mine and of my hon. Friend. The Government That is a breakthrough and a watershed moment for are clear that mental health care is as important as mental health services, but another area that the CAMHS physical health care. It is unacceptable that in this time taskforce wants to look at is how to improve access of modern medicine three out of four people with more generally. In Australia there is something called common mental health problems receive no treatment. Headspace, which involves non-stigmatised access to If three out of four people with diabetes, for example, services often provided by third sector consortia. There received no treatment, we would all be completely outraged. are local Headspace centres around the country, and a Mental health problems can have a huge impact on the telephone service and an online service. That means quality of life of individuals and their families and that far more youngsters can receive access to some friends and should be taken as seriously as physical support at a much earlier stage than is the case in this health problems. I think that this simple principle of country—and was the case in Australia before it introduced equality is starting to be accepted, but there remains a 113 Christina Edkins17 NOVEMBER 2014 Christina Edkins 114 big and frustrating time lag when it comes to translating however, God knows what will happen. They may have it into practice in terms of the responsiveness of services a good service, but too often it falls short. Too often on the ground. still, people end up in police cells when they are in the It is clear from the homicide investigation report that middle of a mental health crisis. Phillip Simelane did not receive the treatment he needed for his mental health conditions. His mother repeatedly James Morris: One crucial aspect of this particular attempted to get appropriate treatment for her son from report is the interaction between crisis care services and the time he was 14. the Prison Service. One of the big gaps revealed by the report relates to what happens when someone is released The report found that there were multiple opportunities from prison with known mental health problems. In this for Mr Simelane to be given access to mental health case, nothing happened and the individual was lost to interventions or treatment, but many opportunities were services. Will the Minister reflect a little on how we missed. In some cases, Mr Simelane did not meet the might be able to join the Prison Service and health provider’s criteria for specific services—a point made by services more closely? my hon. Friend—such as admission to a psychiatric intensive care unit. In others, he was not able or willing to engage with services. During this time, his behaviour Norman Lamb: I completely agree with my hon. deteriorated and his mother became increasingly concerned Friend on that point. The first incredibly positive thing and at risk. One can only begin to imagine how hard it to say is that we have embarked on the national roll-out must have been for her to see the deterioration happening of a liaison and diversion service, the purpose of which before her eyes, to be at risk herself yet to have no is to ensure that when a person first appears in the proper response from the authorities, who ought to criminal justice system—whether at a court or a police have been safeguarding her and ensuring that others station—someone will be able to assess their mental were safeguarded from the actions of someone whose health. If they have an identifiable mental health problem, condition was deteriorating. they will be referred straight away for treatment and support. They may still go through the criminal justice In total, Mr Simelane was reviewed or formally assessed system and may still end up in prison, but their condition for mental health conditions 17 times by four different will have been identified and they will have been referred organisations between April 2009 and December 2012. for the treatment that may help them to address their Quite a lot of effort and time was put into assessing offending behaviour. him, but there was precious little action or support. None of this resulted in him getting the help he actually So far we have spent £25 million in the current needed. financial year. We have covered about 25% of the country, and next year we will cover more than 50%. Our aim is a The 2014-15 mandate to the NHS sets out an explicit national roll-out by 2017, subject to the making of a target for NHS England to make measurable progress business case to the Treasury, and that in itself will make to ensure that a dramatic difference. No other country in the world is “everyone who needs it has timely access to evidence-based pursuing this on such an industrial scale. Moreover, services”, what we are doing is evidence-based, and as we build on whether it be for mental health or physical health. We the programme, we will develop the evidence and ensure have identified £40 million of additional spending to that we apply it. There is also the issue of what happens kick-start change in mental health services in the current to someone who is in the system and what happens year, and a further £80 million for 2015-16. As I said, when the person leaves prison, and I shall deal with that this will for the first time enable the setting of access in a moment. and waiting time standards in mental health services. The Department has funded nine street triage pilots This will include 75% of people referred to the improving this year, in which police and mental health professionals access to psychological therapies programme being treated have worked together to support people who are within six weeks of referral, and 95% being treated within experiencing mental health crises. Perhaps most relevant 18 weeks of referral as a backstop. At last, people with to cases such as that of Mr Simelane is the £25 million a mental health condition—depression, anxiety or a to which I referred earlier, which constitutes the first condition such as obsessive-compulsive disorder—will stage of the roll-out of a national liaison and diversion have an entitlement, just like those with a physical service. health problem, to access treatment on a timely basis. Before my hon. Friend intervened, I was talking Furthermore, at least 50% of patients experiencing a about the unacceptable practice of allowing people who first episode of psychosis will be treated with a NICE- are in the middle of mental health crises to end up in approved care package within two weeks of referral, police cells. It is good news that between the 2012-13 while £30 million-worth of targeted investment from and 2013-14 financial years there was a 24% reduction within the total £80 million envelope will be spent on in the use of police cells, and evidence suggests that that effective models of liaison psychiatry in more acute trend is continuing in the current year. Earlier this year hospitals. we published the mental health crisis care concordat, in Crisis care is one area where the gap between the which more than 20 national organisations committed experience of those with physical and mental health themselves to standards of care in mental health crisis problems is at its greatest. If someone suffers a physical for the first time. Our objectives were a 50% reduction health crisis, they will know what will happen—an in the use of police cells in the current financial year ambulance will arrive and they will be taken to A and E. compared with two years ago, and a complete ending of The system may be under pressure, but access will be the use of police cells for children. My right hon. Friend granted to a specialist who can help with the particular the Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims condition. If someone suffers a mental health crisis, and I are currently writing to local authorities asking 115 Christina Edkins17 NOVEMBER 2014 Christina Edkins 116

[Norman Lamb] have been devastated by this tragedy to ensure that those local lessons with wider applications and the them to take seriously their responsibility to end that issues identified as of national importance are all properly unacceptable practice. I think everyone would agree that addressed, and I am happy to work with my hon. the practice of allowing a child under the age of 18 to Friend to try to achieve that. end up behind bars in a police station must be brought to an end. James Morris: On the specific point about the status A key finding of the homicide report was that of this report, I know that the Edkins family have information sharing within and between organisations written to NHS England expressing concerns about involved in Mr Simelane’s case was not effective. The some of the findings in the report and asking whether sharing of information between organisations that are there needs to be a further independent review. I think responsible for the care of vulnerable people has many NHS England has promised to get back to them. Could benefits, and all organisations of that kind should strive the Minister use his good offices to communicate with to communicate and share information effectively. Indeed, NHS England to get back to the family? I believe that they have a duty to do so. At the heart of Norman Lamb: I absolutely will communicate with most of the scandals over the years when something NHS England and seek to ensure that the family get a dreadful has happened has been a failure to share response to that request. information effectively, and that certainly includes the case of Mr Simelane. As I said earlier, I shall write to my hon. Friend on all the issues that emanate from the report, and in doing so I realise that, in practice, such information sharing is I will summarise the work being undertaken by the difficult to achieve, but it must be an absolute priority, Government in response to this report. Work on this and the organisations involved must actively seek solutions. has already begun. The health care providers at HMP We recently issued a simple one-page guide for practitioners Hewell and HMP Birmingham have developed action working in the health system, which emphasised the plans in response to the recommendations in the report. importance of sharing information. We are right to NHS England’s Shropshire and Staffordshire area team focus on the importance of confidentiality, but, in doing is monitoring progress closely to make sure that all so, we sometimes forget that need to share information recommendations are met. The report also contained to ensure that good care is provided. national recommendations for NHS England, and the Electronic patient records are becoming more prevalent Department of Health and the Ministry of Justice will and are making information sharing easier, but they are work with partner organisation to address these not foolproof, and there are still security and confidentiality recommendations. issues that limit the sharing of some information. For the time being, such systems should be seen as adding Black Country Partnership NHS Foundation Trust an additional layer of patient safety, and it is important has already implemented some changes in response to for all clinicians receiving a referred patient to satisfy Christina’s death. It has phased out the use of “opt-in” themselves that they have a thorough understanding of letters, which my hon. Friend specifically referred to. the patient’s history. Clinicians also have the ability to Their use was an extraordinary practice when one thinks request additional information from other clinicians or about it, given the nature of the condition that individuals relevant professionals if they feel that such information such as Mr Simelane suffer from. Opt-in letters were would be beneficial in making an accurate assessment previously used to invite patients to make an appointment, of the patient. but they allowed someone to be discharged from secondary The Ministry of Justice is responsible for the management care if they did not respond. This practice has to end. of offenders in the community. Care and supervision The trust now proactively assesses all patients referred may be delivered by a number of agencies working to it. That issue has wide application across the country. together to share information, including health, social The trust is working to improve the way its services care, probation and other authorities. This enables join up with others, particularly those provided by appropriate action to be taken if an offender’s behaviour external agencies, in the care of someone with severe escalates to present a risk to the public, and that may mental illness. The trust will shortly be introducing include intervention by professionals or even recall to electronic patient records which will enable teams across prison or to another appropriate facility. different parts of the service to access relevant patient We come back to the need for appropriate sharing of information more quickly. information among organisations. As I have said, this Birmingham and Solihull Mental Health NHS can in practice be complex and difficult to implement. Foundation Trust has also implemented changes, including However, organisations with a responsibility to care for putting in place a robust escalation process for all cases vulnerable people and to protect the public must be able in which disputes or concerns are raised about the to work effectively together. Dr Reed’s report was only outcome of a prison assessment, and ensuring that a published in September and there will be no quick fixes full check is made on the HMP healthcare patient for the organisations involved in this case. We expect information recording system to identify any previous NHS England to work with all the NHS providers significant physical and/or mental health history. involved to ensure that they address the recommendations The trust also has work under way. This includes in the report. This will require NHS providers to work changing psychiatric intensive care unit induction and with non-NHS organisations, including the Prison Service, training for doctors and nurses to include training on to ensure that the lessons that need to be learned from how to undertake prison assessments; introducing a this report are implemented across the board. review of all new prisoners by a nurse specialist within The issues identified in the report as essentially local 24 hours when mental health concerns have been raised will probably be common to many other organisations and, if recommended, by a psychiatrist within a maximum around the country, and we owe it to the families who of five working days; and including in health screening 117 Christina Edkins17 NOVEMBER 2014 Christina Edkins 118 on discharge cross-checking and reference between the offenders. As my hon. Friend has pointed out, continuity health and prison records systems. The trust aims to of care and support when an individual leaves prison is have these and other changes in place by March 2015. of fundamental importance. The investigation makes national recommendations, None of the changes made in response to Dr Reed’s including the implementation of new supervision report can bring Christina Edkins back, but we can all requirements for offenders who have served sentences do our very best to ensure that no other family suffers of under 12 months, as was the case for Mr Simelane at in the way that Christina’s has done. None of the the time of the incident. As part of the Transforming recommendations in the report is unachievable. They Rehabilitation programme, the National Offender will require hard work on the part of many organisations, Management Service is working with the NHS on through- but the result will be better care, supervision and support the-prison-gate support for offenders serving sentences for some of our society’s most vulnerable people. of under 12 months, including those offenders who are I close by once again offering my heartfelt condolences known to have mental health problems. to Christina’s family and assuring them that we will The Ministry of Justice is putting in place an ensure that everything that can be done to prevent unprecedented nationwide resettlement service, which similar tragic events in future will be done. I shall be will mean that most offenders are given continuous happy to work with my hon. Friend and to continue a support by one provider from custody into the community. dialogue with him to ensure that we maintain momentum The Ministry will ensure that most offenders are held in in addressing the recommendations in the report and a prison designated to their area for at least three the concerns of the family. months before release. This will mean better continuity Question put and agreed to. of supervision and rehabilitation services, as well as better family links for those offenders and a network of 9.7 pm prisons more specifically catering for the needs of short-term House adjourned.

1WS Written Statements17 NOVEMBER 2014 Written Statements 2WS

I am today announcing that following this competition, Written Statement the Ministry of Justice has awardeda2yeargrant totalling £24 million to Citizens Advice to provide the Monday 17 November 2014 court-based witness service. Citizens Advice will take over the provision of this service from Victim Support with effect from April 2015. JUSTICE Citizens Advice will deliver a service that provides Court-based Witness Service victims and witnesses with the support and information they need, and will work as a key partner with criminal justice stakeholders to ensure the service plays its part The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims in helping put victims and witnesses at the heart of the (Mike Penning): One of my priorities is to ensure that criminal justice system. victims and witnesses have the support and information I would like to record my appreciation to Victim they need as they give evidence to the court. Support for Support for their work in supporting victims and witnesses, witnesses at criminal courts across England and Wales and in particular for providing support to witnesses at is currently provided by Victim Support through a court over many years. grant funded by the Ministry of Justice. This grant comes to an end on 31 March 2015 and the Ministry of I look forward to working with Citizens Advice to Justice has undertaken a publicly competed exercise for ensure that victims and witnesses receive the support funding for the provision of the court-based witness they need as they give the evidence on which a fair and service from 1 April 2015 for a period of two years. effective criminal justice system is so dependent.

1P Petitions17 NOVEMBER 2014 Petitions 2P

Counter Fraud Specialist. Mrs Sharrocks failed to interview Petition key witnesses nominated by myself whom I said would be able to prove my innocence and she also did not Monday 17 November 2014 consider personal financial data that I offered to her. KPMG concluded “on the balance of probabilities SH has abused his position and gained financially from his OBSERVATIONS actions.”I was so concerned about the way this investigation was conducted, and desperate to prove my innocence that I asked for an independent investigation to be undertaken by NHS Protect. Their investigation was HEALTH undertaken by a Local Counter Fraud Specialist, who conducted a very thorough and extremely professional Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust investigation. Amongst a number of very serious criticisms The Petition of Mr Shahzada Hussain, that he made about the KPMG investigation, he stated Declares that the petitioner is a resident of Sheldon, “The KPMG investigation was poorly conducted and Birmingham and an award winning Web Development made recommendations which were not adequately Manager working for the Heart of England NHS supported by facts of the matter. A number of lines of Foundation Trust (HEFT). In 2006, Mrs Lisa Thomson, enquiry were either not followed or were actively avoided. Corporate Affairs Director, appointed her stepson, Chris No rationale has been provided for the decisions arrived Thomson, to a post within the Trust and placed him in at in respect of these, however, one could speculate that my department under my supervision. I requested his the investigator’s convenience may be a driver here”. He dismissal on performance grounds and this was agreed. also states “I believe the criminal investigation conducted From that point I noticed a change in my treatment by KPMG fell short of acceptable standards. The LCFS within the organisation with a pattern of harassment did not pursue all reasonable lines of enquiry.” He goes and bullying, including having to give up my office and on to say “No attempt was made to verify whether or being made to work from home for three years. not Mr Hussain had actually profited from his activities”, and interestingly says “From evidence supplied by I made a formal complaint to the Chief Executive, Mr Hussain to me it appears that he has incurred costs Dr Mark Newbold and by doing so did a Protected Act. in excess of the amount he invoiced and was paid by the Dr Newbold is the champion of the whistle blowing Trust.”Finally he says, “The LCFS undertook to inform policy and he has declared publically in an interview in NHS Protect ‘for them to consider the evidence’. This the Solihull Times Newspaper (21.6.13), as well as in simply did not happen”. What concerns me greatly is blog posts, that he has an open door policy for staff and that Karen Sharrocks actively failed to consider important that notice should be taken of whistle blowers. However, evidence offered to her by me, which in turn brings into his response to my complaint was to refuse to see me question the independence and fairness of her investigation, and he referred me to the Director of Workforce, Mrs Hazel given that it was paid for by the Trust, and whether such Gunter who attempted to dissuade me from progressing investigations are wielded by employers as a weapon to this. prevent whistle blowers from speaking out. In September I was still suffering from severe stress when Mrs Thomson 2014 I was reimbursed just over £5,000 in expenses I suspended me on the basis of informal feedback she had incurred as part of the provision of hosting for a had received from KPMG. Whilst ill, a colleague of number of websites for the trust that KMPG had mine, Mr Glenn Mannion, gained unlawful access to concluded I had benefited financially from. my private server, without my knowledge or consent in On my return from sick leave I lodged two grievances. contravention of the Computer Misuse Act 1990 and For the first, the investigating officer, Mr Martin Long, downloaded my private data onto an NHS computer. failed to interview me. For the second the investigating Evidence shows that the information he obtained from officer, Mrs Kim Orlandini, not only turned down my my server was to be later used to support an unfounded complaints but she was unable at the feedback meeting allegation of fraud by abuse of position against me. I to substantiate her findings with any supporting evidence. was desperate to prove my innocence and get back to Like Mr Long, she left the Trust’s employment following work and hold Mrs Thomson, Mrs Emma Hale, directorate her investigation. I submitted appeals to the findings of budget controller, and Mr Mannion accountable for these two investigating officers within the ten day deadline their conduct. stipulated in Trust policy, and some two years later the I made a formal complaint to the Economic, Serious appeal hearings are still outstanding. and Complex Fraud Unit of West Midlands Police, who I was so concerned about the irregularities in procedure determined that there was prima facie evidence of a and how unfairly the Trust was dealing with these crime and they issued a crime number (Crime No 20BE/ matters, that I had no alternative but to raise a formal 196044B). However, they determined that the matter whistle blowing complaint. It was at this point that I should be investigated by the Trust, with the consequence was told to direct all future correspondence to the that there has been every possible attempt by my employers Trust’s solicitors, Capsticks, who would now be dealing to cover up what I understand to have been acts of with me. Capsticks appointed a private investigator, criminality committed against me. Despite returning a Miss Nora Bartley to conduct a whistle blowing enquiry. second time to the police, they have still taken no action Initially the Trust refused to allow my MP to attend a whatsoever and have shown no desire to give me the meeting with her and the Terms of Reference were opportunity of making a formal statement. provided to me one day before the first meeting with Mrs Thomson commissioned a criminal investigation Miss Bartley. They had been drawn up by Capsticks, by KPMG and I was interviewed under caution in the without my involvement and they did not adequately presence of my solicitor, by Mrs Karen Sharrocks, reflect my whistle blowing concerns, but rather had an 3P Petitions17 NOVEMBER 2014 Petitions 4P unhealthy focus on a reinvestigation of my original The Petitioner requests that the cost of the KPMG employment grievances. I had to insist that the meeting investigation conducted by Karen Sharrocks is refunded be deferred in order that I could submit an amended to the Trust, and that the money is used to purchase Terms of Reference. I submitted an amended Terms of medical equipment to support the needs of his clinical Reference which was initially accepted by the Trust. colleagues. However, two days before the meeting was due to take The Petitioner also requests that the House of Commons place, Capsticks informed me that a number of key Public Accounts Committee reviews how accountancy areas of my Terms of Reference were to be omitted firms are commissioned to write reports which are from Miss Bartley’s investigation. I expressed my disquiet thought to be independent, but in fact the conclusions that the investigation would not fully encompass my are driven by the demands of the commissioning body entire whistle blowing concerns and that Miss Bartley and the ICAEW refuses to investigate; further requests was not a member of a regulatory body and, therefore, that the details of how I was persecuted as a reasonable best practice could not be assured. My protestations fell whistle blower are considered by the Health Committee on deaf ears. Miss Bartley continued with her investigation, with a view to changing regulations to stop this happening she did not take formal evidence from me and failed to other people in the future. to interview the important witnesses I nominated. Furthermore, she did not consider additional evidence And the Petitioner remains, etc.—[Presented by John that would have been provided by NHS Protect, which Hemming, Official Report, 22 October 2014; Vol. 586, would have been crucial in determining the truth. c. 13P.] As is demonstrated in my case, KPMG provided the [P001392] Trust with a report that was used as a means to suspend me even though the findings within that report are “not Observations from the Secretary of State for Department adequately supported by facts of the matter”. This report of Health: was produced by KPMG as a result of an investigation NHS staff, present and former, should be able to that ultimately has been determined to have fallen short come forward with any concerns about patient safety. of acceptable standards, yet I still remain suspended, We expect those working in the NHS to be supported in accused of impropriety with my health, career and raising concerns. Trusts should have whistle blowing reputation in tatters. The Trust has been unable to tell policies in place that are compliant with the Public me how much was spent on the criminal investigation Interest Disclosure Act 1998 (PIDA). To that end, on conducted by KPMG and claim that they purchase an 24 June 2014, I commissioned Sir Robert Francis QC to annual local counter fraud package from them. I have put carry out the Freedom to Speak Up review, to provide in a Freedom on Information request for this information independent advice and recommendations on creating a in the wider public interest. more open and honest reporting culture in the NHS, to On the recommendation of the Secretary of State for identify measures to help foster a culture of reporting Health I have lodged a formal complaint with Monitor, and consider what more can be done to further protect who is currently investigating and is considering potential NHS workers who speak out in the public interest. The breaches of the Trust’s Provider Licence conditions. review is expected to report at the end of November 2014. NHS employees are being encouraged to raise concerns The concept of vicarious liability in the context of in the wider public interest; however as the systemic whistle blowing was introduced through section 19 of failing in the petitioners case demonstrates, it is not a the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Act 2013, and safe environment in which to do so. To further compound came into effect on 25 June 2013. We welcomed this this problem, the petitioner’s case also highlights a lack change in employment law which provides even greater of support towards whistle blowers. There is not an whistle blowing protections. Introduction of these provisions organisation in the country that has the remit or authority mean that where bullying or harassment of a whistle to take ownership of a whistle blowing complaint in its blower by a fellow worker is proved, this is treated as entirety and investigate all intrinsically linked matters. being done by the employer. HEFT took the decision to spend huge amounts of public money commissioning the services of Capsticks Furthermore, in March 2014, the Government published Solicitors, KPMG and Nora Bartley when the petitioner their response to the call by the Department of Business, took the courage to raise his concerns. It seemed that Innovation and Skills for evidence on the whistle blowing the people he was raising concerns about were ultimately framework which details both legislative and non-legislative in charge of determining proceedings and commissioning measures which will be taken to clarify and strengthen supposedly independent investigations on themselves. whistle blowing legislation and demonstrate the valuable role whistle blowing can play in an organisation. The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of Commons holds a parliamentary debate to discuss the It is for the Public Accounts Committee and Health validity for the creation of a national whistle blowing Committee respectively to determine the matters they authority. will consider. ORAL ANSWERS

Monday 17 November 2014

Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1 HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Crime Levels ...... 3 Police and Crime Commissioner By-elections ...... 15 Crime Levels ...... 14 Police Budgets...... 16 Deportations...... 7 Police Morale...... 6 Deportations...... 13 Student Immigration...... 5 Drug Misuse ...... 10 Syrian Refugees...... 11 Female Genital Mutilation...... 12 Topical Questions ...... 16 Modern Slavery...... 1 Vehicle Scanning Machines...... 8 Online Child Abuse...... 9 WRITTEN STATEMENT

Monday 17 November 2014

Col. No. JUSTICE...... 1WS Court-based Witness Service ...... 1WS PETITION

Monday 17 November 2014

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CONTENTS

Monday 17 November 2014

List of Government and Principal Officers of the House

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for the Home Office

Reserve Recruitment [Col. 23] Answer to urgent question—(Mr Brazier)

G20 [Col. 33] Statement—(The Prime Minister)

Avian Influenza [Col. 55] Statement—(Elizabeth Truss)

Childcare Payments Bill [Col. 66] As amended, considered; read the Third time and passed

Christina Edkins [Col. 108] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Statement [Col. 1WS]

Petition [Col. 1P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]