Transcript of Interview with Seng Luangrath Asian American Voices in the Making of Washington, D.C.’S Cultural Landscape DC Oral History Collaborative

Transcript of Interview with Seng Luangrath Asian American Voices in the Making of Washington, D.C.’s Cultural Landscape DC Oral History Collaborative

Narrator: Seng Luangrath Date of Interview: September 25, 2018 Location: Thip Khao (3462 14th St NW, Washington, DC 20010) Interviewer: Crystal HyunJung Rie Audio Specialist: Dave Walker

Biographical Information: Seng was born in Vientiane, Laos on 06/02/1969. As a child, she learned to cook Lao food by helping her grandmother preparing meals for the family. At the age of 12, she escaped Laos with her mother and some of her siblings. Her family lived in three different refugee camps: two in northern Thailand and one in the Philippines. While she was living in a refugee camp in Nakhon Phanom, she learned to cook various Lao regional cuisines. Her family first arrived in Berkeley, California where she spent her teenage years and got her education in finance. After she got married in 1998, she moved to northern Virginia following her husband. She worked as a bank teller and accountant while her husband was working in manufacturing, restaurant, and flooring business. After their construction business for military housing did not work out, they took over a Thai restaurant, Bangkok Golden (now Padaek) in Seven Corners. She originally served Thai and had secret Lao dishes, but she was able to serve both cuisines after getting a positive review from a Washington Post food critic. With encouragement from her customers and D.C. chef community, she later opened a Lao restaurant, Thip Khao, in D.C. with her son, Bobby Pradachith. These mother-son chefs are now leading Lao Food Movement that promotes Lao cuisine and culture but also encourages ethnic minorities to be proud of their own identities and cultures.

Description: Seng Luangrath discusses her childhood in Vientiane, Laos; life in refugee camps in Thailand and the Philippines; and relocation to Berkeley, California. Luangrath discusses her marriage arranged by her mother, moving to Virginia and establishing a life with her new husband, and her professional life before becoming a chef. Luangrath also discusses her culinary career, opening a restaurant with her son, and the impact the D.C. community of chefs have had on her career. Finally, Luangrath discusses the Lao Food Movement.

S: Seng Luangrath C: Crystal HyunJung Rie D: Dave Walker

[00:01:05] C: We are gonna do an oral history interview with chef Seng Luangrath. Today is September 25th, 2018. We are at her restaurant Thip Khao in Washington D.C. My name is Crystal Rie, and we have an audio specialist Dave Walker, and we have a Washington Post reporter Tara 2

Bahrampour. We are gonna document her (Seng Luangrath) experience of coming to the States and opening her restaurant in Washington DC. When and where were you born?

S: I was born in Vientiane, Laos, which is capital in Laos in 1969.

C: What's your birthday?

S: My birthday is June 2nd, 1969.

C: Can you tell us about Vientiane?

S: Vientiane is a capital of Laos. It's a big city, basically that's where I grew up. It's diverse city, a lot of people from all over Laos, pretty much in the big city, just like any country. What was it like? Back when I lived there, it was still not as much developed as nowadays. I grew up in a, with a big household where my grandfather was a farmer, and my grandmother was housewife.

C: What kind of farming did your grandfather do?

S: My grandfather, he farmed, mostly rice, so his daily job is working in the rice paddy, growing rice for the families, and store in a big barn, in the backyard. He also had a garden where he grow a lot of vegetable and herbs, and different garden which is further out of town that he grow a lot of fruits, mango, pineapple, you know, all kinds of different tropical fruits.

C: Did he work by himself?

S: Mainly he was working by himself as far as I remember. But my uncle and aunt helped him when they are not in school. I remember, he was mainly by himself or he hired somebody to help him. On weekends, I will see my aunt and uncle, will help him out on weekends.

C: Can you tell us a little bit about your family members? Who was in your family?

S: The family members? I remember, um, we grew up in a big family, so my grandmother, my grandfather, my mom, my dad wasn't around, my dad was traveling, he was in the royal army force, so he travelled all the time, you know, for training and stuff. My aunts and my uncle. So the house, my grandmother, pretty much everyone living there were 12 of her childrens and four of us, her grand childrens.

C: Do you remember how many total were there?

S: uhh, I remember it was four of us and my mom, so I would say about maybe almost 20? Yeah, because my aunt and uncle also married, I don't remember if they had kids back then, it's just, pretty much my mom, she was first kid that had children, yeah.

[00:04:57] C: So it was your mom, your siblings?

S: Yeah, it was 12, not 12, 11 children cause one died. So 11 children, which is 11, my grandfather, 12, 13, my grandmother, and us, four of us, so 17, and then my aunt and uncle also, a few of them got married, so we all live in the one big household.

C: Wow, that's really big.

S: [laughs] I remember my grandmother and my grandfather really worked hard to, you know, to save, we were living in a small, small house, they worked really hard to save money, you know, by selling fruits from the farms and rice, stuff like that. So they were able to save some money to build a big house. I remember when they were building that big house. The house is still there.

C: Oh, really?

S: [laughs] I was surprised that the house still there, yeah.

C: Do they still live in the house?

S: No, no one live in the house right now. The house I left, my grandmother passed away and I think she sold the house, or it was taken over, someone took over the house. Yeah, but surprisingly, a lot of houses in the area, old houses in the area torn down, and a lot of new houses build up. I was very surprised that that house still there. And I still saw old, I still remember the old windows and doors still there, but I was too nervous to go inside [laughs]

C: Why?

S: Cause someone lives there, so I don't feel comfortable. and I remember that house, the kitchen was outside of the house. It was on the side of the house. It wasn't inside, yeah.

C: Can you describe the kitchen?

S: The kitchen is pretty small. It was outside of the house. Umm, it was open fire kitchen, so it was just covered with bamboo and some woods that they can collect it. It has like two open fire with metal stand. We used a lot of charcoal and woods that my grandfather will collect and bring it home. And I remember, you know, whole bunch of jars, like clay jars, clay container all over the wall area, which is holding the fish sauce, the fermented fish. [laughs]

C: Do you have any memories of your childhood?

S: Yes, I do have good memories, especially about food. I was very shy girl. I mean, when I was a child, I was very, I was one of the very shy kid. My grandmother would not make me to 4 anything but staying at home, umm, because she would not make me, I mean, she won't ask me to outside the house to buy her anything. So sometimes, we will need certain ingredients, so she will ask my younger sister. I was a girl that, pretty much stay at home, you know, help with her. Whatever she needs help with. So my childhood was really not typical childhood, basically, so I'm pretty much like a home girl. I was always at home. I always surrounding with older people. Umm, so I didn't have a lot of friends [laughs] as far as I remember. Umm, if I go hang out, it will be my sister and her friends. And I remember, one day, my sister was causing a fight with another girl, and I decided I'm not going there with her anymore. So I'm kind of like the, it's kind of like a calm, quiet girl, yeah.

C: So you are the oldest?

S: I'm the oldest. I'm the oldest girl. Umm, I have older brother. So it was four of us. I have an older brother, me, my younger sister, and my youngest brother.

C: Do you know why your grandma kept you at home and sent the other girl out?

S: Because I was too shy. I didn't speak up. So my grandmother also, umm, my great grandmother and my grandmother also sold vegetables like we grow. So what they do on some days is they would pick up, you know, watercress, morning glory, or the herbs from the garden, plants, and then they will pack in bags, wrap in bamboo, or banana leave, put in a basket, and tell one of us, I mean, usually like one of us, and I never go. I don't remember if I did, but I didn't came home with good amount of money [laughs]. Because I was too shy to sell it [laughs] I might came back home with some leftover [laughs]. So she probably, that's why she decided not to send me out to the market and sell any of those vegetables and herbs [laughs]. So my sister is a person really, you know, carry the basket around and she will like yelling, you know, try to tell people what she was selling [laughs] and I wasn't like that, so maybe [laughs].

C: And your grandma taught you how to make sticky rice when you were young. Can you tell us about that?

S: So I'm at home a lot helping her in the kitchen, umm, so the first lesson she taught me how to cook was sticky rice. I never forget that [laughs]. So basically how we make sticky rice is, we have to soak in the evening, so we will grad the rice in the container, and I will have to make sure that I rinse the rice at least two or three times before we soak it overnight. If I don't do it right, then she will be yelling at me. So she also taught me, you know, how to sit. I never forget that. I got slapped on my knee, on my leg few times, because I didn't sit properly [laughs]. It's because rice, it's like a sacred thing. Rice is our main starch of the house. It's feeding the whole family, and my grandfather worked really hard, you know, to grow the rice and harvesting the rice, and bring it home for the family. So we treat the rice, it’s like, we have to treat the rice with respect even like sitting down and soaking the rice. Because in Laos, we don't have kitchen that we use counter kitchen, so it's on a floor. So basically like things that cook, you know, when we are cooking with, sat on a small stool, and that's how we cook at home. So when I sat on the stool, you know, just make sure, I sat like a woman, you know, make sure my knees are 5 together, you know [laughs] So just make sure I sit like properly to soak the rice. And of course, you know, kids, you don't know. So I got slapped few times not sitting properly [laughs] so I remember that [laughs]. So we soak the rice overnight, and then next day, get up in the morning with her, early in the morning, 4-5 o'clock in the morning. We will start the fire, collect the woods, you know, start the fire, fill the pot with water, you know, probably about, not half way, maybe a few inches, and put the rice in the basket, and steam the basket. Then we will put on top of the pot, so that's how we steam the rice.

[00:12:10] C: So the steam basket is thip khao?

S: The steam basket is not thip khao. It's that one [Seng pointing at a steam basket in the restaurant]. It's an open basket. Yeah, right there. Yeah, thip khao is the one that after we cook the rice, we put in like a flat tray, like a bamboo tray, and we cool it down with stick, you know with a spoon. Cool it down and we move into a bowl, and we would put in the thip khao, which is sticky rice steamer. And we'll cover with blanket. [laughs] yeah, keep it warm, yeah.

C: What did you dream about becoming when you are a child?

S: As far as I remember, I liked to help people. So I love to feed people, too. I like to cook. I remember when I start cooking, I enjoying it, it's kind of like make me happy. I always, you know, feeding people, help people, it's like, make me happy. So I don't remember that I wanna be a chef. That chef word was not really exists in Laos back then. I don't remember if I wanna open a restaurant, but I remember I want to help people. So I want to kind of like, "hmm, when I grow up, I wanna travel..." My mom, my mom actually worked for Lao government, she travelled all over the country, she help people. So I like community work, so I was like, "gosh, I wanna do that one day," yeah. But being a cook or chef didn't come into my mind until when I'm here.

C: Do you know what your mom did when she was traveling?

S: My mom worked for Lao government, interior department, I don't remember exactly the term, the name. But she travelled a lot, umm, she pretty much worked as secretary, umm, so she travelled a lot throughout the country, especially during the War, the Vietnam War. She travelled a lot, you know, helping the people who affected during the war. She also, you know, type documents and stuffs for her boss. I remember she came home and she bring us some food and stuff that was donated through some organizations that she went out. I remember she bring us some canned meats and some canned fish, yeah.

C: Was there any food that really surprised you? Cause it's from different province or something?

S: Yeah, I remember she brought something that we never had. She brought us some river weed, kai pan. It's like a dry river weed, like a algae that she brought over, you know, we tasted 6 it, we were just like, "we never had that before." Because we eat fresh water algae and stuff, but it wasn't dry, so we make soup with fresh. But we never had it dry like a, some sort of like a snack, like a chips. I remember having that, "wow! this is..." yeah. And also remember, she brought us some canned corn beef. I was like, "wow!" cause we never had that before [laughs]. We have like some canned fish and stuff, you know. But we never had canned beef, yeah.

C: Do you remember anything about, can you tell us a story about how your parents told you about the Vietnam War?

S: I don't think, I don't think they told us anything about it, but we just kind of knew. I think how we grew up is, we grew up, in Laos, it was so many different, not just Vietnam War, there were so many civil wars, you know, the war within the country. So it's always some sort of a war. I remember one time, it was, I don't remember what year, I remember probably sometime in 70, in early 70s, because I was born in (19)69. And I was two or three, I don't remember it is Vietnam War or some war, we had to pretty much prepare ourself. We had to, you know, getting ready to prepare ourselves to hide in case of the bombing stuff like that. Umm, I remember sometime in 75, I remember when the country, you know, when other government took over, I remember we were affected, you know, my aunt and uncle were ready to leave the country. I remember that. So we kind of knew, they didn't tell us about it, but we kind of knew, and also my dad, never home, so. Cause he worked for a Army, and he was gone, you know. We didn't know where he was. He would just disappear. I remember my mother has to go a lot, she had to leave town a lot. She never home. She hardly, like maybe a month or two, we didn't see her. So we were just kind of curious what's going on, and we heard a little bit story here and there about what happened. But, you know, as a child that age, we don't know, we have no idea, you know, better understanding, yeah, yeah.

C: Did your aunt and uncle came to the States before you came?

S: Yeah, so my aunt and uncle left before, my mom was the last person that left. So my aunts and uncles, they left the country when it first happened, um, so my grandmother decided to keep my mom, you know, because my mom was still working, and she's traveling a lot. So, you know, she just decided to say, "okay, let her stay and" us, the siblings, I mean, the childrens, so we stay behind. And I remember that we were kids running around, so my grandmother has to get a nanny to take care of us, so she has to, to hire someone from my dad's hometown, which is further down the country, couple ladies to come and help raising us. Because my aunts and uncles were helping her, and they were not there anymore, so yeah.

C: What's the name of the hometown that your father grow?

S: He grew up in, it's called Bandun (?). Bandun is out in the further near the Mekong river, near the border of Thailand.

C: How far is it?

S: It's, I remember when I was young, it was pretty far, but I don't think it's that far [laughs] Umm, I think it is about couple hours away. But it seems like, when we travel back days, my mom took us to his hometown. It seems like very long. I haven't been there yet, but I talk to my husband about it. He said about 2 hours away, yeah, from where we lived.

C: So the grandparents that you lived with were mom's side or father's side?

S: My mom side.

C: So your mom's from Vientiane?

S: Yeah, my mom from Vientiane. So part of my dad, my dad also in Vientiane province, but it's just further outside, yeah.

C: Can you tell us about the time you had to escape Laos?

S: It was 1981, so I was about 12 years old. Umm, just like I said, my mom was the last person to leave my, at some point, my grandmother thought that it wasn't safe for us to stay. Umm, she also feel not comfortable with how my mom, you know, has to leave town, so many times to work outside our hometown. Umm, and she also has, she will be disappeared to go to work, any time of the day. So, you know, for her, being a mom, being a woman, you know, has to work so far away. She didn't feel comfortable and safe for her. Umm, so she asked us to, pretty much like, she gathered all of us [laughs] together. I remember we all like in this small tiny room, some sort of like a secret room [laughs]. And she would sat all of us down, and she would sat my mom down, and we all crying. Cause we didn't know. We were just like, "what's going on?" So my grandmother was like, "well, you have to leave." And I was like, "oh my god, why we have to leave? Because I don't want to leave." I loved, I liked to be around her and I like to be cooking with her, so "I don't wanna leave." So we left, and umm. [Seng crying]

[00:21:24 - 00:21:50]

S: All right, so, she sat us down and she asked my mom, you know, she told my mom, "you have to." and my mom said, "no, I don't want to." Cause my mom felt like she needs to be there because my great grandmother still alive. So their life is pretty rely on us, you know, on me and my mom because I always there helping them. My grandmother just said, "you have to." So it's like by force basically. It was like by force, we didn't want to, but by force. She had to make that choice for us, so she said, "you have to." So she hired couple people to take us out of the country. umm, and during the conversation, she has to make a decision for us. My mom can make a decision, but she told my grandmother, no, you have to keep one of my daughters, you know. You have to keep one of them." So my grandmother said, "I would not choose me(Seng)." Because she said, "I love her. I really love her. I love her helping me cooking, but I rather keep her sister," which is my younger sister. Because she's a brave girl, you know, even though she wasn't good cook, she didn't know how to cook it, but she was brave girl. She would go anywhere. She ask her to go, she'd just pick up some stuff, you know, put on her shoes and 8 go without like, "no, I can't like." I'm the person, "no, no, no." So she kept, "no, I have to keep her because she's gonna be the person that she relied on. Because she has to go to the market and buy some stuff. And taking care of my great grandmother, take care of her, so yeah, so she decided to keep my younger sister. And we had to pack and leave the following day. So the conversation happen that night, and we had to leave the following day. Because it has to be immediately, otherwise, it the word would get out, then it'll get us in trouble. I remember we took the bus and left the city, left our hometown, and went to the country (side).

C: When your grandma chose your sister, how did that make you feel?

S: Actually, I was kind of sad because I love to be around my grandmother so much, you know, because I was one that helping her a lot, cookings, and, you know, pick up the vegetable from the garden, help her feeding my siblings and my great grandmother, and her other kids. So I didn't wanna leave. I was kind of sad, but I had no choice, you know, I had to leave.

C: Did you go to school?

S: I went to school. When I left, I was in 4th grade, I think. I think 4th grade. [laughs]

[00:24:55] C: Can you tell us about your school life?

S: My school life? I didn't have any friends. [laughs] I have a few friends. I think 1974, I was about five or six. My grandmother took us to, we went to French school. We went to French school for short time, before the French left. So basically, 1975, the French left because the country was taking over by Chinese. I remember we went to French school. I loved it. I loved it. We wore uniform, you know, we went to school, you know, we sang French song, we learned French language. It was just the early beginning. It's not even a year, and then the country took over by the Chinese and the French left. So we went to a school at the temple. A school at the temple ground, so the town built a school at the temple ground. So we are now has to go to a regular school.

C: How was it different from French school?

S: Ummm, it was. So French school was private school, so my grandmother was lucky, I mean, we were lucky cause my grandmother was, you know, some money saving for us to go to French school. It was private school. It was nice. We liked it. It was nice and clean. So when we went to the public school, it was pretty much like a roof and few poles, and small table. At first, I was a little bit uncomfortable because, you know, from French school to that school, and I get used to it. I remember it was, I was in the class, I remember like I think I missed my homework or something, I had to stand in front of the classroom. It was so embarrass [laughs] I stand in front of the classroom, and my teacher would just do like, she would just get a ruler and smacked my [laughs] that was my punishment [laughs]. I don't know what I did, maybe I didn't do my homework. So I remember also during recess, I would like to spend, I spent time by 9 myself. I remember I spent time sitting in front of this, you know, right in front of the Buddha. It's a temple ground school, so there's a house like a Buddha, the monks staying. There's some arts on the wall, like a few arts. I post so much of that art [laughs] on my Instagram. I know you saw that [laughs]. It's a monkey arts.

C: Oh, yeah. I remember that.

S: [laughs] So it's the money art, and I just fell in love with those arts. So I'd spend, just staring at those arts and hanging around there. And also, I remember, you know, I got lucky, I got some allowance, so I will go to under the Bodhi? it's called Bodhi tree? It's like a huge tree. I think it's called Bodhi tree. It's a huge tree and then there's a lady sat under the tree with her small bamboo table, and she will have this big bowl of fried noodle sell for the students. I remember just, you know, when I had some allowance, I would go there and buy the noodles. She would sell under newspaper or banana leaves. I have it on the menu. It's kua mee. [laughs]

C: Oh, kua mee! I love that noodle.

S: Yeah, so that's my favorite noodle. [laughs]

C: Did you ask her how she made that?

S: Ummm, I don't think, I don't remember asking her, but when I go there to her stand, I was just like fascinating about the colors, "gosh, how does she make the white noodle, the noodle was white, how does that turn out brown? and it's so pretty." [laughs]

C: That's amazing. You had pretty good time in Laos, and you had to leave Laos. How was the journey like?

S: The journey to leave Laos, it was quite, umm, scary. It was quite scary. We were escorted out with two guy, two men. Umm, two men that my grandmother hired to get us out of the country, so we met them at some point near the border. And we also met my uncle who we were surprised that he actually showed up. Because my grandmother said, "I'm gonna send your uncle." But I wasn't sure if she's coming or not. So my uncle, he was about, I think, 18 or 19 back then. He actually showed up because my grandmother thought that it will be safer if someone older, you know, come with us, you know, some sort of like protection. So we met them at this small tiny huts, so we stayed there overnight. Around 2, 3 o'clock in the morning, you know, we had to get ready. So one of the guy came and said, we have to be ready. So I remember packing stuff and they have to, decided to separate us for whatever reason. They said, me and my mom will be with one of the guy, and two of my brothers and my uncle has to go with one of the other guy. It was, It wasn't a good feeling. It was scary. It was scared. I didn't understand, "why did we have to be separated?" you know, especially me and my mom were like, "oh gosh, what's gonna happen?" you know. So I remember they took us somewhere in getting ready for the boat, so we were just hiding somewhere. I was like, "oh, god. Just me and my mom." We were just scared, so "all right, whatever happen will happen. So we just have to 10 do it." So we waited, and the boat showed up, and they just like, "go, go." and we just went on the boat. And we were just gone on a small tiny boat and yeah. That's what happened. When we got to the Thai border, so they took us, you know, the pedal boat, get to the Thai border. So we actually not Thai border yet, so during the dry season, it was in November, December, umm, so the river is dry out a little bit. So in the middle of the river is like a dry area, so we have to get off the boat and go to the dry area, and then we have to go to the other area, other river, which is almost to the Thai border. The water wasn't that deep. The water was about, you know, this my chest, I was small. I was maybe about few feet high, so it was about up to my chest. So we have to walk, you know, through the river to get to the Thai border. I remember once we get to the Thai border, we were about [unintelligible], they were trying to pull us up to go to the safety, I remember, we heard gun shots, and I was like, "oh gosh." We were just hurry up. So we all wet and we're just like, "all right, we safe now." But behind us we heard gun shots. We were just like so scared. It probably someone, maybe they saw us escaping, or maybe they saw someone else behind us. We don't know. So yeah, we got to this Thai border, and people were there helping us, you know, they took us in their house and gave us some clothes, and dry out. The next morning, we were pick up by, you know, the local police and to take us to the city to get, you know, register so that we can get into the refugee camps.

[00:33:09] C: What did you bring with you?

S: We didn't bring anything basically. Just our clothes. So my mom will bring like couple jewelries with her, just in case, you know, we need to sell for money. But she has to hide them. [laughs]

C: Of course. So when you arrived in refugee camp, it was in Northern Thailand.

S: Yes, it was in Nong Khai.

C: What was your life like?

S: Umm, it was crowded with different people. We got there, the gate was bamboo gate, so we don't see what's inside until we got inside, we were like, "wow!" [laughs] So a lot of people, it was bamboo huts, bamboo row house all over the place. We put us in one of the bamboo huts, a tiny space, maybe like 10 by 10, very small, or 8 by 10. [laughs] So it was like four or five of us, yeah. It just enough room for us to sleep, basically.

C: So when did you get to meet your brothers and [crosstalk]

S: Oh yeah, we met them at, when we were get on the boat, yeah.

C: So you guys were together in the camp?

S: Yeah, yeah. So we all like, there's like boats, I think there were like two boats cause the boats were very small. So they were on the other boat, we were together when we escaped.

C: What was your life like? What did you do in refugee camp?

S: When we were in the first refugee camp, so we were in two refugee camps, the first refugee camp, we were just being there waited to be ready to be listed to go on the permanent camps. There are like few permanent camps. Umm, it was, it was, it was not much going on there, so we were just, you know, playing around. There's not thing for us to do. We don't cook, umm. There were food distribute, there was like, there were like trucks and trucks of food that comes two times a day, you know, bring lunch, and I mean, during morning and dinner. So there was like cooked, like ready-to-eat meal. We just pretty much playing around waiting to be going to the next one.

C: When did you go to the next one, the next refugee camp?

S: It didn't take us long. It took us a few, I think, a few weeks, we weren't there that long. And we got, they took us to a permanent camp, which is in the Northern Thai as well. It's in the city called Nakhon Phanom, so end up staying there over two years.

C: How was your life in second refugee camp different from the first one?

S: It was different. I like it [laughs] I really like it, even though we didn't go to school. I like it. There's no school, so we just hang around as kids. So we just playing around, and I remember, the reason I like it so much is because I was able to cook. [laughs] We got some food that distributed to us on the daily basis, and some of the food are not cooked, so we have to cook on our own. So they supply us like pots and pans, and charcoal stove, umm, they supply us certain ingredients that we can cook with.

C: What did you cook over there?

S: I cooked so many things, umm. So basically, what happen in refugee camp was, my mom met my stepdad. Because being a single mom, so she needed somebody. She need a man to help, because raising three kids, and she was in her twenties, yeah. I think late-twenties, maybe, yeah. So she found someone and then they pretty much like a couple. So he moved in, live with us at the permanent camp. So I grew up with him, also watching him cooking. He's a good cook, too. And also my neighbors, so my neighbors also cook. So what I learned so much is that it's not only cooking the food that I grew up eating, I also learn the food that I grew up never eating [laughs], which is a food from other part of the country. I was just like, "wow, what is this?" So I also learned from Chinese family who happen, well the refugee also like, people from all over the country in Laos. People from the north, from the south. Cause I grow up in the central, so I don't really travel, so we were small. So we don't know how, what's the different type of people in Laos, so we met people from the mountains, so we met the people from, you know, Chinese descents, so we have people next to us were Chinese family. So I learned some Chinese cooking 12 from them, too. You know, they have a wok, so they have money, you know, so they were able to afford to buy a wok from the market outside. So we don't have a market inside the refugee camp. There's a market outside right by the fence. The local Thai will hang some stuff, you know, selling, you know. It's not a permanent, its like daily, they come in the morning and hanging some stuff on the fence, and we will go and buy. So they family was, they cook with wok, so I was like, "I don't know. What is that thing?" I've never seen a wok. [laughs], you know, we saw the pot, but never seen a wok. [laughs] So it was interesting for me.

C: Do you have any memorable dish that you liked?

S: Yeah, so here a dish that I remember, umm. It was during the cicada season [laughs]. It was during the cicada season, so the local Thai who live in the area collect all kinds of thing like vegetable, fish. So it was cicada season, so they brought cicada. So we actually have the food that we trade with them. So we trade the tuna, the mackerel. So we got a lot of steamed mackerel, you know, distributed to us and we were tired of eating it. The steamed mackerel is very expensive considered to the local Thai. So we'll take the mackerel and trade it for cicada. [laughs] So cicada is like luxury for us and the mackerel is like luxury for them, the steamed mackerel, [laughs], you know. So we trade [laughs]. So I took home and my stepfather would just like tell me, he told me, "why don't you help me take the wings off?" Because the wings are not edible, so I would take the wings off the cicada. And he would ask me to chop them up, but not like chop in smaller pieces. And I was like, "what are you gonna do with cicada?" He's like, "I'm gonna make salad." I was like, "wow!" I remember eating like all kinds of edible insects by stir-fry, I mean, cooking in oil. Not deep-fry, just cook it with little bit of pork fat. I remember doing that with pork fat, but I don't remember have to make a salad with that. So my stepdad actually taught me how to make laab, so he asked me to chop it up and cook for him in the pot, just to get it cook, and then he will put it in the bowl and mix it with herbs and fish sauce. I had it, I was like, "oh my god!" [unintelligible] you can make laab cicada. [laughs] It was so good. [laughs] It's like luxury food for us. [laughs]

[00:41:18] C: So you stayed in refugee camp for two years? And then you guys moved to Philippines?

S: Yeah, we moved to the Philippines, and sometimes in early 1983. We were putting in the refugee there for six-month to learn English. Umm, and also to learn how to adapt our lives in America. So pretty much, you know, the process of getting ready to come to America. [laughs]

C: So when you were leaving Laos, you knew that you guys were going to the United States?

S: No, we didn't know. We have no idea where we are gonna end up. So a lot of refugees end up in different countries. So some people end up in Australia, some people end up in France. One of my aunt and one of my uncle actually end up in Australia. Most of my aunts and uncles end up here in the United States. So my uncle on my stepfather's side was end up in Australia. So my stepfather want to go to Australia, umm, but Australia probably stop, paused that time, so we end up came here. So, you know, we have to go through asylum. The process, interview, 13 so whoever, live in refugees, people take longer because they didn't have a good case. For us, we have a better case because my stepfather was working for the government, my mom was working for the government, so we have a good case. We have to leave, we can't go back, you know. If we go back, it's not safe for us. So we got lucky, we got chosen to leave the camp to come to America.

C: When do you know which country you'll end up?

S: We end up in America is, during the process of interview. My mom and my stepfather had to go through process of asylum interview with the office, the people who are doing the paperworks. And we got on a case where my aunts and uncles were already here in the United States. So we got sponsored by them, you know, instead of sponsored by different organizations. Some people sponsored by families here, umm, some people sponsored by Catholic family, Christian family, or like a local church things like that. But we got lucky my aunts and uncles were here, so they sponsor us.

C: And it was still refugee visa.

S: Yeah, so we came as refugee visa. But they have to know where we are gonna end up staying, who's gonna be taking care of us. So my aunts and uncles was already here, so they have a place for us to stay, yeah.

C: Then what was your life like in Philippines?

S: Umm, the life is getting a lot better. We were there for short time, but so much better. Because we were able to go outside the camp. Because in the Thai refugee camp, we weren't allowed, unless we have some money, umm, we weren't allowed to go outside the camp to do foraging. In Philippines, I saw many kinds of vegetables that, you know, grow wild. We were able to go out and, you know, looking for vegetables, and herbs, and, you know, bamboo shoots, things like that. And we also had gardens there, so people who were there before us, they start the gardens, the next people that comes be continue to, you know, garden.

C: What kind of vegetables or fruits did you grow?

S: I remember we grew a lot of sweet potatoes. I think we did grow ube. [laughs] I love ube, the Filipino purple yam. So we grow a lot of root vegetables, we grow a lot of lemon grass. Cause a lot of lemon grass also grow in the Philippines, and as far as I remember, the Philippines don't eat a lot of lemon grass, but they do put in teas stuff like that. Or maybe they eat, but not as much as we do, so I remember we grew a lot of that. A lot of different basils, different herbs.

[00:45:48] C: And you also went to English classes? How was it like?

S: Yeah, yeah. It was fun. We went to English classes, it was fun. Umm, it was a short time, but we didn't learn whole a lot. We just learned A,B, C... What is this?; What is that?; This is a table; This is a chair [laughs]

C: I'm a boy. You are a girl? [laughs]

S: Yeah, I'm a boy. I'm a girl. [laughs] Yeah, like that. It was basic stuff, so it wasn't like a full. It was just a basic stuff, and we also learn, you know, what is life in America. What to expect. Things like that, yeah.

C: what was your expectation on America then?

S: Heaven. [laughs]

C: What do you mean heaven?

S: Heaven mean like, "it's gonna be so beautiful. It's gonna be so nice. It's gonna be like..." It's like imagine like going to, we came from a third world country and we're gonna come to America. Our imagination of America is like heaven: nice cars, nice house, beautiful places. It's just heaven [laughs]. Good food. So that's our imagination, so yeah. [laughs]

C: Did you know about America before you went to refugee camps?

S: No, we actually, when we were in Laos, we were taught to hate America. [laughs] We were singing a song that it wasn't good. [laughs] I remember when we went to school, we were just taught different things about America. But then we were in refugee camp in Philippines, we were just like, "wow!" We saw movies, [unintelligible] movies about America, "wow, beautiful!"

C: Do you remember what movie you watched?

S: I don't remember. I think it was one of those cowboy movie. It was cowboy movie. I think it was, Clint Eastwood movie. It was 80s, cowboy stuff. Yeah, I remember watching a lot of cowboys movie.

C: huh, interesting. What was the process like from refugee camp in Philippines to coming to the States?

S: Umm, the process? What do you mean?

C: How did you move from Philippines to the States?

S: So, usually they don't keep us long, either three months or six months. So the family who speak well English, they have three months. For us, it took little longer because, you know, my dad, my mom, I mean they speak English, they speak French, but they just have to help the... 15

They also work with the community, yeah. So they [unintelligible] keep us longer. She could have left after three months, but they ended up helping other families to process, you know. They also part of the community, you know, getting through the process cause they also translators, because they speak English. So we were there for six months, [unintelligible] to go, so we got on the flight, you know. I remember took a bus to the city to the Philippines, I was like, "wow, the city!" [laughs] It was a lot of traffic, so many cars [laughs]. We haven't seen that many cars. I was like, "oh my god. So many cars!" [laughs] So many tuk tuks. [laughs] Cause we grew up in the country, we saw a lot of cows, buffalos, and bicycle and bike, so not that many cars. So in the Philippines, like traffics, a lot of cars, yeah.

C: How did your parents learn English?

S: My mom went to French school, and she's well educated. She went to college, university. And my stepfather also like, you know, well educated, so they all speak English, they speak French, so they learned when they were in school.

C: When you arrived in Berkeley, California, where did you stay?

S: We stayed with my aunt. My aunt lived in an apartment like a... I remember she live in two bedrooms apartment. She live in one, and then she gave it to us one bedroom. And me and my sister, my brothers had to sleep on the couch. [laughs] That was about maybe three to six months. We were there until we found an apartment, so we move into an apartment on our own.

[00:50:18] C: When you arrived in the States, did it meet your expectation?

S: Umm, yeah, actually it is. [laughs] We were able to go McDonald's and have, you know, big macs [laughs] We have French fries, and we have burgers and burritos [laughs] And we have cakes. [laughs] We have all kinds of candies. Yeah, we were very happy. I remember my mom brought some bread, Wonder Bread and butter. I was like, "oh my gosh, so good!" Wonder Bread on toast, you know, put in a toast and spread the butter on in, and sprinkle little bit of sugar. [laughs]

C: I don't think I've ever had Wonder Bread.

S: Yeah, Wonder Bread. So good! [laughs] I wasn't even a real butter. It was margarine. We cannot afford to buy real butter. It was margarine. She would buy Wonder Bread and margarines and yeah. It's so good. You should try it.

C: I will [laughs] Then did you go to school right after you came here?

S: Yeah, so when we landed, we got to the appointments and my aunt picked us up and get the process of paper of green card. So we all set to go to school. So my aunt was, is not from my 16 family side, is from my uncle side, so we was helping us. Once we got our paperwork and she would take us register, so we end up in school pretty short time. Cause we arrived in September, the school's already start. So it was pretty short time, maybe a week or two, we start school already.

C: Really? Wow. What was it like to go to school in the States?

S: It was scary. So I didn't speak much English. Just for me like, "hi" "how are you?" you know. [laughs] So my family friends, her kid already in school. So my aunt hook us up, you know, I will go to school with him. He will take me to the classroom, and during break he will come and get me. And then he will take me to the cafeteria. He will show me what food to eat, what food to order. Oh my god, I still remember the cheeseburger [laughs] Yup, he's like, "what do you want?" I said, "I want that thing. Looks so good." It was a cheeseburger. So good. In the school cafeteria. [laughs] I still remember the cheeseburger, how it taste like. [laughs]

C: What was it like to be in a class and with the people [crosstalk]

S: I was nervous. I was nervous. I was very scary. Umm, I didn't know what to react. I mean, because in Laos, in school, we have to behave. If we don't behave, we got hit by a stick, by a ruler.

C: It was same in Korea.

S: Yeah, so it wasn't like that (in the States). It's like, there's no ruler in a classroom. Where is a ruler? [laughs] I thought it would be like that, but it wasn't. So it was kind of, for me, it's kind of like, "wow, this is..." It surprised me how the students can talk back to the teacher. [laughs] In Laos, we can't. We will get punished. I was like, "What? wow. students can talk back to the teacher." In Laos, you have to be calm and be quiet. Like teacher say something, you have to be quiet.

C: Yeah, you don't argue.

S: Yeah, you don't argue. That was like a big surprise for me [laughs] when I saw some students were like, talk back to the teacher [laughs] to give them their opinion. We can't do that.

C: What was your teenage life outside of school then?

S: Umm, I have a few friends. [laughs] I was very shy person, so I didn't have many friends. So I pretty much go to school, come home, stay home. And also my mom was, my mom, she's very strict. She was a very strict mom, very old fashioned. So she will give me an assignment, you know, I was 14. 1983, I was 14, so she already have an assignment for me. So she gave me an assignment to pretty much take care of my siblings. To make sure I come home and take care of my siblings, take care of my sister, I have a half-sister, who was born in refugee camp. So I'll 17 have a responsibility of taking care of her, you know. I also have responsible to take care of my older brother and my younger brother. So be a second mom to my siblings.

[00:54:58] C: That’s a lot of responsibility.

S: Yeah, for the 14, yeah. I was like, you know, I have to help my mom out cause she has to work two jobs. Same thing with my stepfather, so they both had to work two jobs, so we have no choice. I have no choice. I took the responsibility to go to school, come home from school. I'll make sure I prepare the meal for dinner, for everyone in the house. Yeah, so I'm like a second mom.

C: Do you know what kind of jobs your parents had?

S: My mom was a housekeeper, so she take care of it. I remember she clean like four, five houses a day. That's a lot of work. Umm, my dad work in a Japanese restaurant and also Thai restaurant, so he also had three jobs.

C: How did your cooking changed from what you did in Laos and how you did in the States.

S: Umm, it changed, because we didn't have the ingredients that we grew up in Laos. You know, especially, with the vegetables and herbs. Umm, I remember we grow up eating a lot of papaya salad. And the papaya, back in the 80s, was so expensive. We couldn't afford to buy papaya. And I have to replace papaya with carrot, so we made carrot salad instead of papaya salad. With the meat and protein, we can get chicken, but we couldn't find some stuff that we grew up eating like chicken liver, chicken hearts, and chicken feet, you know, things like that we couldn't find. Or some part of animals that we grew up eating, but we couldn't find. We just had to adjust with whatever we can find with ingredients.

C: Were you able to find fish sauce or shrimp sauce?

S: Yeah, actually, when we came there's a Chinatown. Chinatowns already have those ingredients, but it's not a lot of options, a few options, not like nowadays. So a few option of fish sauce and shrimp paste. Not a lot of fermented fish sauce. Fermented fish sauce, we end up buying from friends, you know. The friends that came here before us. They make fermented fish, so we buying from them. But as far as shrimp paste and fish sauce, we can find. But for the sticky rice, it was kind of hard to find. We have to eat a lot of jasmine rice. Sticky rice is kind of expensive back then, too.

C: When you came here, did you identify yourself as Lao or did you feel like you became American now?

S: Umm, I think we adjust to the life that we are American now. But the challenge that we have growing up back then until recently is our identity. I remember I went to school and the kid will 18 ask me where I'm from, you know. I said, "I'm from Laos." And a lot of kids don't know. So we kind of going through that, so you know, other Lao kid that I grew up with has the same issue. That a lot of people ask us "where you from," and we said, "Laos." We have to explain where is Laos. We kind of like shy about it sometimes. We have to, sometimes we have to tell people, we are Thai. Because we say, "we are Thai," then people don't ask us any more questions. You know, we kind of tired of explaining it. At the same time, we kind of like, you know, I mean, not ashamed, shy of being refugees, you know, we were scared of being, people will bully us, you know, so if we say Thai, then people accept it. So a few times, I would have to tell people, I'm people.

C: I think a lot of Korean people had similar experience, like until recently like, when we say, "Korea" and then people are like, "Oh, Korean War. Are you from North or South?" and people get tired of it.

S: Yeah, so the same thing.

C: What did you dream of becoming when you were in high school?

S: I still don't know what direction I'm going. But I still, in my heart, I still want to do community work. I love to help people. So I still have no idea how I'm gonna do it. But my mom had, suggested me to pursue a career in banking. She wants me to be a banker. Same thing with my stepdad. So I end up went to community college after finish high school learning banking and finance. But it was a program. It wasn't like a degree. It was a certificate program, so I end up banking and finance.

[01:00:15] C: What was the name of your high school?

S: Berkeley high school.

C: What about the college?

S: It's a community college in Oakland. [Tara wrote the name of the community college] Yes! Thank you! It's Laney College. I was there about six months to get my certificate. I was supposed to continue there to get maybe further on, you know, in some sort of like business. But I ended up got married. Right after get my certificate, my mom just like, "get married." [laughs]

C: You were ready to get married. [laughs]

S: My mom actually shows my husband. [laughs]

C: How did you meet your husband?

S: He's from my dad's hometown back in Laos. We connected with my dad and visit us for some work. He met my dad and my mom end up talking about it, about us getting married. So we got engaged two, three weeks later. It's crazy. [laughs]

C: What was it like? What did you feel?

S: I actually was a girl that, you know, pretty much had to do whatever my parents told me. So whatever they told me, I just do it. So being disobey is not like, yeah. I didn't want to say no, so they chose my husband, and I said, "okay." So we got married.

C: Did they show you his picture?

S: No, he actually went there. We met. He was there for a business trip and he end up staying with us. Umm, I grew up in a very strict parents, so my mom. So if you see me at some places, you will see my mom. So that's how my mom is. She would not let me go hang out with friends. Party or dating is not such thing, you know. No such thing as party or dating, you know. I'm pretty much like a second mom to my sibling. Come home and cooking. That's how I grew up, or spend all weekend doing laundries. I would take my sibling, my little sister with me, and people thought she's my daughter. "Is she your daughter?" So yeah, for me, when she showed my husband, I just had to stick with it.

C: Did you think he was attractive? [crosstalk]

S: I saw him, he was in his late 30s, and I was, 1986, I was 17. So I was still in school. So I didn't know, I never date, so I don't know what is love is about. [laughs] I don't know, so whatever my mom said, I will stick with it. I think he's nice, so he came back to Virginia, supporting me, sending money, a $100 to go buy candy. [laughs]

C: So $100 of candy was enough [laughs]

S: Buy candy or a dress, or jeans, you know, Guess jean. I told him, I love Guess jean, you know. He would send money and say, "Go buy Guess jean or go buy candy, go buy McDonald's Big Mac" [laughs] So his much older, and my mom believed in marrying, living with older man in order for her to be feeling that I'm being taken care of, you know. Cause me and her are very close, you know. Because I always take care of her, I take care of my siblings, you know, I take care of the family, so she wants to make sure that I married a right person. That's why she thought that my husband was right person, so she met him, I mean, not too long, and she decided already that he's gonna be your husband. So we got engaged three months later. He came... Well, we talk, so we have a conversation when he was there, then he came back to Virginia. He actually went to jewelry shop and bought a sapphire ring, put in an express mail, and send it over. [laughs] I think it was express mail, or ups, or something like that.

[01:04:57] C: What did you think when you received that ring? 20

S: I just put it on. [laughs] I just didn't know what to do with it. So my mom said, "mom, what am I supposed to do with this?" "Just put it on. Just put it on your finger." Yeah, so that's how it happened. We engaged from 1986 all the way to 1989, then I finished Laney College, got my certificate. And we got married.

C: And your grandmother and sister came to the States in 1988?

S: In 88, they came for my wedding. They came in 1988, and we got married in 89. And then my grandmother went back. My grandmother decided to go back because she still has some land, some houses that she wanna take care of, you know, she didn't wanna lose it. My great grandmother already passed away. So basically, no one is taking care of the house, of the land, so she decided to go back. My sister changed her mind. She was supposed to go back, but she changed her mind. She end up staying here because she saw the life here and like, "I wanna have my life here, so I won't go back to Laos." You know, to raising cow and buffalo, so she decided to stay here.

C: Can you tell us about your wedding?

S: My wedding was organized very secret. Basically, my mom didn't want people to know because my mom was a very private person. So she decided just not telling anyone until a month before the wedding. So it was kind of like a big surprise to the community, especially my aunt and uncle. The whole community there, the Lao community that we doing events with, they kind of like surprised that I actually gonna get married. Because I was a girl that always with my mom, and they thought I didn't have anyone. [laughs] A few moms, or a few my aunts and uncles, you know, hook me up some of their sons, their nephews, like a courtship thing. It didn't work. My mom never liked them. So they were surprised, everyone curious who gonna be my husband. Everyone was very curious, they wanted to see who's gonna be my husband. [laughs] It was a big wedding. It was about 300 people. So I had to cook for my wedding.

C: What?

S: Yeah, because of my mom. She was just like, "well, it was short, I don't know how we are gonna get things done. You have to cook." I was cooking. Luckily, my grandmother was here. My sister was here.

C: What did you cook?

S: Gosh, we cook a few dishes.

C: Lao dishes?

S: Yeah, we cook like the traditional laab, and we cook sticky rice. We went to San Jose to buy Vietnamese pork patties, Vietnamese sour sausage, umm, we have to cook, I remember we did 21 some fried chicken. And we did some kua mee noodle because in Lao traditional wedding, we always have some types of noodle and laab. I remember making laab chicken in the small apartment. But luckily there were some people that came and help us, yeah. So we make about 4 or 5 dishes, and we bought a couple dishes. Actually, my aunt who was there, she very good with events, so she help us buying cakes and get invitations, and invite people, and hosting the wedding for us.

C: Did you follow Buddhist tradition?

S: Yeah, it was Buddhist tradition, so we had, we went to [unintelligible] In the morning, we went to the temple and get blessing from the Buddhist monk and later in the evening, we have ceremony there. So we went like a hall, like a veteran's hall, where like Lao people just at random veteran's hall and having a wedding there instead of going to church. We had a ceremony there. So my grandmother was helping setting up the flowers, getting chicken and eggs prepared for the wedding so we [unintelligible] whole chicken, and, you know, some boiled eggs, flowers, and some sticky rice.

C: What kind of clothes did you guys wear?

S: It's a traditional silk wedding skirt with shirt. My sister made me a shirt, so my grandmother bought me the traditional silk, handmade skirt with like a long scarf. And my aunt was in charge of put on my makeup and hair, so I have to put my hair up, so my face have to be shown. So in Lao wedding, woman face have to be shown, not cover. So we have to have a, like our hair up. I remember my aunt puts a lot of makeups and I didn't like it. [laughs] I had to wipe it off and she keep put it on. So I look like a lot of makeups. I don't wear makeups. So it was a traditional, yeah.

[01:10:20] C: Did Berkeley have a strong Lao community?

S: it had a strong Lao community back then, especially people for my hometown. It seems that, you know, the family in Laos the hometown we live in is moving in that Berkeley because of my aunt was there, and some of them were there, so it's like a small our hometown community.

C: Do you remember how many people, roughly how many people were there?

S: Ummm, for our family, I would say like a 100 or so, but there's also other families there. So I would say, umm, gosh, a few thousand maybe? But it's all over, some of them are not our family. So I would say like a few... it's like in the area where is Oakland, Berkeley, Richmond. But it could be more.

C: That's really impressive. After you had your wedding, when did you guys move to Virginia?

S: I got married in 1989 in December. So we moved here a couple weeks later, so the end of the year. Actually, no. We moved here right away. We got married on the 23rd and we move here end of the month. Yeah, I move here right away.

C: What was your expectation about Virginia?

S: Umm, [laughs] people was like, "why are you moving to Virginia?" [laughs] It's nothing out in Virginia. [laughs] It's a farm, it's animals. I said, "yeah, I like farm and animals." So I didn't really expecting much, you know. I was actually really happy that I got married, you know. Cause I want to know what is life to be partying and, you know, [laughs] and dating. So I was actually happy to get married, so I was like, "gosh, now I can fly. I have wings." [laughs] So I didn't expecting much. I know I'm gonna miss my family. I knew that I'm going to have friends right away. I kind of knew that it's gonna be pretty much for me to start all over. I have to make new friends, I have to make new families, so I didn't have family here, all of families here are my husband side, so I would just getting prepared for it. Trying to adjust to them. Actually it was very easy. It wasn't hard. I thought it would be hard. It was easy. So I move here and everyone was nice, so my husband family, my in-laws are very nice. I guess because of food [laughs]. So I cook them a lot of food. [laughs]

C: Were their food different from what you've been cooking?

S: Yeah, their cooking style is different. So I grew up cooking my grandmother style or the style that I learned, how to cook on my own, or the people I learn from the refugee. My husband side is different. They are from further out country side, so the food they cook is very good, but very simple. Not much like stir-fry kind of thing. And the technique is the same, but some of the ingredients they are not using like I did. So I have to, I pretty much kind of like teach them to, you know, how to make food better. [laughs] You know, using the same ingredients, but make it better. Actually they really appreciate it. I make some of the dishes that they really like, and they want to learn, so I pass it on recipes, and they still have it, and they still make it. So I'm so proud of them, too. [laughs]

C: What are the dishes?

S: It's naem khao (crispy rice salad). So naem khao is a recipe that a lot of people don't wanna make because of the process of making it. It's complicated.

C: How do you make it?

S: It's like steaming the rice, and left the rice overnight, and you know, you have to make your own curry, [unintelligible], ginger, lemongrass, pound it down with mortar and pestle, really fine, make it like a curry paste and mix it with rice and coconut. And you have to mix it up and into a ball size, and deep fry it and let it cool down, and mix into a salad. It's just the process of making it is complicated. So you don't see a lot of family making it. So when I came here, I make 23 for them, and they loved it, so yeah. It's one of the recipe that one of my aunt, she's still making that for parties, so I don't have to make that anymore [laughs].

[01:15:00] C: Is it the recipe that you use at Thip Khao?

S: It's the recipe. The same recipe, yeah.

C: So you guys moved to Alexandria, Virginia? Can you describe the neighborhood?

S: I actually moved, when I first move here, I move to Springfield. My husband cousin's house because my husband was single, so he lived in the basement. It was in the basement. I move in with them, and they were, my husband, his cousin, his wife, and then his four childrens. So it was about three bedrooms, and the fourth bedroom downstairs. So we live downstairs, so we rent the basement. So we lived there for six months, while I was living there, I haven't get a job yet, so I was staying home. I cook for them. I make sure the food is ready when they get home from work.

C: When did you guys move to Alexandria?

S: We moved to Alexandria six months later, we move in an apartment. We stayed in apartment for two years. My husband make pretty good income, so we save money for about two years enough to put down payment. So bought our first house in 1993. We bought our first house in Alexandria.

C: That was when Bobby was born.

S: Yeah, when Bobby was born. So we bought a house in, I think, I don't remember. Actually, no, we bought a house in 1992, in late 92. And Bobby was born in February 93. Actually we saved money within two years. We save about a year and half. So we didn't party, we didn't do much, so we didn't go out. We save, we save. Our focus is like, "we wanna get a house." So we wanna get a house, so we didn't... It was kind of surprise my mom, too. "wow, how do you do that?" [laughs] So we save about maybe 15 grant and we put down payment. [laughs]

C: What did your husband do?

S: He was working in the manufacturing. It's actually in DC, in Northeast DC. It was a company make acrylic, a glass furniture. They make like a glass like that. They make like tables, chairs and bed. It's a company that sell to high-end household. He make pretty good income, so he was supervising, you know, the company. It wasn't in NE, it was on L street, so the company is no longer there. He was working there for very long time.

C: That's also when you were working as bank teller and accountant.

S: I got bank teller, so I was working in a bank from 1990 all the way until 94, maybe 94 or 95. I got a job in an accounting office [unintelligible] up until 98. And my husband decided to, we sat down many times about we wanna open a restaurant. In 98, we just, you know, looking around, so we are gonna open a restaurant. We found a place that is closing down in Springfield that we thought, "oh, it will be a good space for a restaurant." So we actually talk about it, we were so serious about it. So I have some money that I was saving from stocks, you know, with Bank of America. We thought we could do some money to, from 401K to start a restaurant, but we end up went to another business. Because, you know, we thought it will be too risky, got so scared because of all the saving we have. Umm, you know, because I didn't have the experience much with the business. By doing research of the risk of opening a restaurant, the failing rate it so high, so I kind of like scared to know about it. So end up got into flooring business. Because while we were looking, trying to work on the restaurant business, my husband also, he was working in a French restaurant in DC, La Provence (?), they closed it down after two years opening. My husband got a job with a friend who is doing a flooring business, so he was a carpet installer. For a short time he was working there, the owner decided to take over a grocery store and he offered my husband a business. So we end up decide to go toward flooring business because it's kind of safer for us. It make us a little bit more secure, you know, without investment. So we decide to go to the flooring business first.

[01:20:44] C: What was your life like when you were doing flooring business?

S: I hated it. I was doing accounting sitting nine to five. I was okay, I was happy with my job. I had to quit my job, I mean, I was getting ready to build my career, so I said, "you know what, this will probably make my mom happy. Stick with finance, you know." I was pretty much looking forward to my career and I actually went back to NOVA (Northern Virginia Community College) to study, you know, to get some sort of degree maybe in business or administrative or something. So actually like wanna pursue my career with accounting and I got promoted, I was happy. When we took over the flooring business, my husband can't do it himself. He has a friend who's his partner with, you know, who's helping him, and he decided to leave, so my husband said, "okay, I can't do it by myself." So I had to quit my job. So I remember the first day I went there, I hated it. I was crying. I told my husband, "oh my gosh, why are you doing this to me. Why I didn't stay at my job? Why am I putting myself into this." I was sitting in a warehouse. It was a warehouse where we install carpets, and we have office space, we have a showroom in the front. And I didn't know anything about this kind of product. I don't know about carpets, I don't know about hardwood floor, so I told my husband that I don't like it. But I was like, "you know what, since we put so much money into it, I wanna make it happen for him." So I kind of like pushing myself, you know, just do it, just do it. You know, I just do a lot of readings, a lot of researching, I called the carpet company's sales rep to come and help me, teach me the products, you know, what is [carpet types], what type of different carpets, you know, so I learn from. Yeah, so I had to pretty much getting myself up in the morning and just do it, just do it, but it wasn't like the kind of career that I wanna stick with. So we did that from 1998 all the way until 2004.

C: Did you continue to cook?

S: Yeah, I continue to cook for my family on the weekends, I will go to my family and cooking for my family. We have gathering on weekends, so on Thursday, Friday, we'll call each other what we are gonna cook tomorrow, then we go shopping, and we cook. So I kind of [unintelligible] cook for them and when they have party, birthday party, or small events, they will ask me to cater them a few dishes. So I do that, you know, for fun. So I continue to cook.

C: Can you tell me a little but more about the gathering? Who came to the gathering?

S: So the gathering is pretty much our family. My husband has give cousins. It's a big family with five cousin and their family, their kids. So it was about 40 or 50 of us. And we will have kids running around the house. They are like from one-year-old or baby to six, seven, eights, nine. So we will come together every weekend. It's nothing much to do, so we didn't know what do to besides going shopping, going to the mall, so we're just like gathering in weekends. So they will call me. So usually the ladies will call me and say, "what are we gonna cook this weekend?" on Friday. Then I will decide what to cook. So I was the person who make a decision for them. I will ask them, "what you wanna eat?" and then they will tell me that we will go shopping afterward or we go shopping the next day, on Saturday morning. Ans we end up cooking and gathering, and pretty much all aunts and uncles, in-laws, just our close families.

C: From what I remember with Bobby, he told us about his experience of eating a lot of Lao food during gathering [inaudible].

S: Yeah, yeah, it's always food around. So on weekends, always food around. It's like a whole day thing. Family will come together and drinking, eating, lingering, talking. It's like an all-day, so starting from lunch to all the way to dinner. And sometime on Sunday, we will come back for cleaning up. [laughs] So we were rotating houses. It's a few houses, either my house or my in- law house, or one of my cousin house. So between three houses, we kind of rotating.

[01:25:23] C: Was it more like your family tradition or was it similar in other Lao [crosstalk]

S: Umm, some Lao family do that, but for us, it is very traditional. It's a traditional thing. We keep continue doing that all the way to I get too busy to do it. So it's quite a long time. I would say since I move here to Virginia 1990 to all the way until some time in 2000, I would say some time in 2000, yeah. So it's just every weekend thing. The ladies and I will go shopping and eating, and then after we finish eating, we'll just go shopping and come back. So we liked to go to the mall. So it's like a traditional thing. Sometimes we take like a family trip to the [unintelligible], but more often is in the house.

C: Now they have to come to this restaurant [laughs] When was Nathan born?

S: Nathan was born in 2003. It's ten years after Bobby. 26

C: Did you think about passing down the Lao tradition to your children a lot?

S: Yeah, the thing about us is, since we are here in America, I speak English to them, umm, we do speak Lao to them as much, but we like to speak them more English, is because they are spending a lot of time in school. So for us, we felt like English is important, I mean, our Lao language is also important, but for us, it felt like English is more important. So we speak Lao with them when they were little before they went to school. Once they go to school, we start speaking, you know, a little bit Lao, but more English. But we do teach them the value of our tradition, our culture, so we kind of like continue to teach them that. But as far as language, you know, I'm sure Bobby have told you, he lost it at some point. And coming back to food is his language now. But as far as basic tradition, we keep that. We teach them that.

C: What kind of tradition did you teach them?

S: Umm, we'll take them to the Lao temple. We'll show them, guide them to tradition what we believed. We also show them it's very important that we pay attention to elderly. We show them how to respect elderly. That's important for us, you know, it's so important that I teach them. You know, that's what I learn from my grandmother. So I also teach them how to talk, how to behave, you know, how to walk in front of them, you know, things like that. You know, very simple that how you're not supposed to walk higher than them when you walk pass them, your body has to be lower, you know, something like that.

C: Did you teach them how to cook Lao food?

S: I teach them how to cook Lao food, but not a whole a lot. When at home, because I want to also explore different cuisines. When I cook at home, you know, I cook a lot Lao food with family, but as far as our family meal as stuff at home, I like to cook some American dishes, some sandwiches, burgers, some spaghettis, you know, some things that I pick up from watching TV or cookbooks. Cook Lao food, show them how to make sticky rice, you know, how to make sticky rice properly, how to make different sauce, umm. As far as what we are doing here, he didn't learn until he actually work here.

C: Do you still celebrate Lao holidays?

S: Yeah, we celebrate Lao holiday. We have like, but not as much, the only time we do is when we go to the temple. We do have different holidays, but our New Year. New Year is very important to us, so we celebrate Lao New Year. So we do have, our kids come together our house. We basically, during the rainy season, it's New Year, so we water each other. We cleanse, you know, they will cleanse our hands. So we prepare our water, we prepare our Buddha, and flower, and water with perfumes. We will have them come and give my husband blessing and give me blessing. So they usually pour water on our hand or on our head. So we do that once a year.

[01:30:39] C: When Bobby was growing up, did you expect that he would one day become a chef or go into the food industry?

S: I don't think Bobby [laughs]. Bobby hate food when he was little. [laughs] Bobby didn't like food. I never thought in my head that Bobby will become a chef. I remember Bobby was so skinny, when he was about, I would say, when he was about four or five years old, I have to force Bobby to eat. He hate food. He didn't wanna eat. He was really skinny. Me and my husband was very frustrated on how to feed Bobby because he didn't wanna eat. When he said he wanna be chef, I was like, "wow. [laughs] that's, that's, I would never expect it." So when he was in high school, he took economics class, and he came home and said, "mommy, I made muffins." I was like, "wow. Really?" I think when he was in sophomore, yeah, I think in sophomore, or not a senior, he said, "mom, I wanna take culinary class." Luckily in Annandale High School, they have culinary class. They actually have a full commercial kitchen. They actually have a chef there teaching culinary class, but you have to qualify. You have to apply and qualify. So he was lucky that we opened our first restaurant already, so he was qualified for that. Because we have a business, we have a restaurant business. I don't know how that process go, you know, but he was accepted in the class. So he was actually in the culinary class in high school.

C: What made you feel when he told you that he's taking culinary class?

S: I was already in the business over a year, so I've been through that process of opening the restaurant, you know, and I know how hard it is to work in there 12, 13, 14, hours on your feet. And non-stop working all day. I know the hardship of that, so I don't want him to. When he came up to me, I was at the restaurant. He said, "I wanna go to culinary school. I wanna be a chef." So that was like, "wow. Are you serious? I thought you are just gonna do this culinary class in high school. And that will be like you are gonna shoot different career." So I thought it will be just for fun. I told him, no, I don't want him. I don' want to. Then he convinced me. He said, I wanna do it. This is what I wanna do. This is what I wanna do in life." So me and my husband just go with that. So we just said, "you know what, we cannot stop him because we don't wanna force him to do what he didn't wanna do." If we wanna say, "okay, Bobby, you have to go to business school. We want you to learn business or computer or technology, something like that he wasn't interested in. I said, "no, no. Let's not force him. Let's get him to do whatever he wants to do." So we actually said yes and he went to culinary school after he graduated. He was very happy. [laughs]

C: Going back a little bit. So you guys were in flooring business, and how did you make the transition from that business to working at restaurants?

S: For the business, it's umm... Because we have experience with the business, so we kind of have an idea how to run a basic business. But as far as transition, for me, it was quite difficult. Because I know that I can cook, I know that I'm capable of being there all day and cooking. That's where make me happy when I'm in the kitchen. I know I can do it. But as far as the 28 challenge to, you know, operating the kitchen, working the different people, I didn't have knowledge. Also, operating a restaurant business in the kitchen. As far as front of the house, my husband has a basic knowledge, so he help me. But as far as how am I going to set up, you know, how am I gonna start it. It was quite confused. I actually spent a month before I took over. I was ready one month. I had to because the owner was just, you have to. So I took over, and I have no idea how to operate certain equipment. So I just learn from the staff that was there. It was quite stressful. I remember the first day I had to close for first few hours because I couldn't handle the stress, you know. I was overwhelmed. We weren't that busy, but I just overwhelmed. Because I didn't know how to the food, I mean, the prep-wise, you know, I have a few people help me prep, but I didn't know how to get the recipes, the food out as quick. It's kind of stressful.

[01:36:00] C: Then before, when you started the flooring business, you guys felt like it's too risky to open a restaurant, then when you were taking over Bangkok Golden, what motivated you?

S: What motivating me is because, umm, while I was doing flooring business, we also end up doing minor construction business. We work with different people, different company, so I do a lot of catering for them. What gave me confidence is that the people I cater to, a small catering, just for fun, they give me feedbacks. They always give me a feedback on how much they like the food. They give me a feedback on like, "you are in a wrong business." [laughs] "Why are you doing this? You are in a wrong business. You should open a restaurant." So hearing that for a few years, I kind of, give me a confidence that I can trust my food. But as far as opening a restaurant, yeah I'm still scared. I'm still nervous about it. But I know I can trust my food. I know the food is, the people are gonna like the food based on what I've been hearing all this years. So I just took a risk. The reason I said, "I'm going to do a restaurant as business." is when we did the flooring business, we decided to go with minor construction. So we sold the flooring business in 2005 and went to a minor construction with military housing.

So why we doing the minor construction for military housing, my husband and I working really really hard seven days a week. We had to hire a nanny to take care of Bobby and Nathan, umm. It seems like our life wasn't getting there. It seems like we work so hard, and then the money wasn't there. So we end up went into a bad business partner with someone, and at some point in my life that we will just ran out of money. Because [unintelligible] the money wasn't there, we have to took our mortgage to invest into the business because we hired 50-60 people. And it was a lot of people. And also like the money didn't come in. The money keep going out. So my business partner end up not pay us, so we've been a broke basically. So we end up having nothing left.

So we were gonna put our house in the market, we were gonna move out of state, we were driving around for at least couple months to find a job because we have experience in military housing, so we've been driving from Atlanta to Colorado to North Carolina to any military base that we can think of that we have connecting with the people, that move from one base to another, was gonna help us. So we end up going to move to Atlanta to Columbus, Georgia. 29

Because we have a friend worker that working in the Fort Meade that we were working with in Maryland, he moved there, he was gonna help us because he saw us working so hard, you know, with this partner. He saw what we've been through, so he want to help us. So we were gonna move, we put our house in the market, but we end up move back.

We end up decided, "no, that's not what we wanna do. We don't wanna move our family there." So pretty much have nothing left, so we hit rock bottom, basically. We got lucky that we had met so many people who was so kind for us that they have seen our situation. So they help us getting some small job here and there, so we end up back to Fort Meade military housing. We got our business started on our own, not just me and my husband. So we got a small job here and there just to get back us on our feet down to move back on [unintelligible]. We were doing that for about six, seven months, a year, as far as I remember, I was stressing out because of the life we've been through. I was stressing out. I wasn't happy. I was really stressed. And my husband said, why don't you stay home for two years, I mean, he said, "why don't you stay home." so that was about 2008, seven or eight, somewhere around there. So I end up staying home. He said he can handle this work on his own with couple people, couple crew that helping him, you know, going in the houses, painting, and repair. Get ready for military family to move in.

So I stay home, so I stay home. We were able to get our house back, so we move back in the house. The house that we still live in that we bought, so we were able to afford to pay back our mortgage. And my husband decided just, "you stay home and figure out what you wanna do." It seems like what we've been doing for the past years, it didn't work. It works, but it wasn't successful. It wasn't getting us to where make us happy. I end up cooking a lot at home. I knew that food, food is one that's going to. Food is, this is what I like to do. This is what I've been passionate about. I was probably thinking in my head that, "this is going to work." So the [unintelligible] of being home, I was doing a lot of research, and I wanna go back to what I originally thought about in 1998. I wanna open a restaurant. So I did a lot of research, I do a lot of recipe testing, you know, I went to grocery store everyday, you know, going to different aisle, read label, do my research, do a lot of research, buy ingredients and creating different recipes, you know, googling and getting recipe online. Finding a restaurant that is available.

And I told my husband that the money we have in 401K, $50,000. "Gosh, how we gonna go this?" If we took off $50,000, we are only gonna have like $30,000 left. So what are we gonna do with the money? And there is no way I can get a business. But I was lucky. Doing my research finding a restaurant, a lot of restaurants I saw was $150,000, $200,000. That was existing restaurant. I don't have that money in Virginia. I found an old taco place that gonna close down and they are gonna put in the market $50,000. But it was in a very bad shape. It's like, yeah, it's nice, but the owner want $50,000. We don't have $50,000.

So we end up talking to my goddaughter, my goddaughter was working for Bangkok Golden in Maryland. She just said, "Are you really serious about it?" I said, "yeah, I'm very serious about it." She said, "you know, the owner wants to get rid of Bangkok Golden in Seven Corners, you know, I will talk to her." So she talk to her, and the next day she called me and she said, she 30 wants to talk to you. So I drove there and talked to her. That was in 2009. So I went down and talked with her. Half an hour later we came back, we came out, I was talking to my husband and like "what the heck happened?" [laughs] I was like, "what the heck happened?" So she offer us the Bangkok Golden. I told her honestly that I don't have money. I have $50,000 sitting on our 401K. We can withdraw that money and we probably have to pay a lot of tax, so we don't have much money to run the business. Umm, I mean, to give it to you a lump sum. She said, "no, you don't have to pay me, you know, just give me $15,000." So I give her $15,000 and I got like $15,000 something left. I don't remember the exact number. So I use the money to continue to running the restaurant and I was like, "wow, I can't believe that I got the restaurant." [laughs] Yeah, so it just happened. It meant to be and happen for a reason. I guess it has happened for a reason.

[01:44:28] C: When you saw that restaurant, what did you feel like?

S: I have confidence. I actually had confidence when I saw the restaurant, I have confidence. Because the restaurant was not too big, and I can handle it. I think that I told my husband that I wasn't scared at all. I mean, scare wasn't in my thought. I know it's a risk, but scare of failure is not in my thought. I said, "I'm gonna make it. I'm gonna push myself to make it." Because I trust my food so much. Because with the feedback, I said, "I can do it." Even though I never had experience working in the restaurant kitchen or in a commercial kitchen, I said, "I can learn. I can taught myself. It can happen." You know, I can push myself. So I wasn't scared. I was ready for it.

C: Then when you were catering, were to catering to Lao community mostly?

S: Yeah. Mostly to Lao community. About two to three months, I catered to my aunt's office. She work in the office in Crystal city like a government contract office. So she has a lot of coworker, you know, who had my food. They come to our party, our house party and birthday party, so some of them, you know, had my food. So they asked my aunt to organize the lists of who's gonna order the food for the Friday. So I will cook at home in my backyard, so I brought like a big propane stove. I bought a big wok. So I will make two, three dishes: pad thai, drunken noodle, and the fried rice. So I will give them three items to choose from. So she will send me a list and I will cook and I will put in the box, and I will just take it to the lobby, and they will come down and pick up the food in the lobby. [laughs]

C: You were cooking typical American Thai food instead of cooking Lao food.

S: Yeah, I was cooking Thai. I was cooking Thai because that's what they are, they get used to. That's what they had and they likes it. Actually, when I cook Thai in my family home, they like it. Because they don't eat out, so we don't eat out a lot. We can't afford to eat out a lot. So the only time they'd eat Thai food is when I cook at home for them. So when we have family gathering, so I will make like pad thai, drunken noodles, so they loved it. So I basically cooking Thai food when I do catering. Lao food? Maybe sun-dried beef, umm, maybe couple laab here 31 and there, but mostly I will make like stuffed chicken wing, which is Thai dish. And I will make pad thai, drunken noodle, yeah.

C: Then how did you learn to cook Thai food?

S: Umm, just going eating out. [laughs] I go eat out and I just remember the taste. And I just maybe, back then, I did googling the recipes and yeah. I just practice and practice. And I read labels and some stuff, you know, when I saw pad thai, a jar of pad thai sauce, I will read and what in there. I just practice and learn how to make it.

C: So you were working in Bangkok Golden, can you describe the neighborhood where the restaurant was?

S: Umm, it was in a street mall. The neighborhood is in the street mall. It's in between the nail salon and shop. Chinese restaurant there, grocery store there, the crowd that go there are typical family household. It's mostly family, variety of different cultures, not like here in D.C. You know, D.C. is more younger people, over there is families, mostly families, yeah.

C: Were there a lot of Lao or Thai customers?

S: When I first start, I don't have a lot of Lao or Thai. I have a few here and there not until I start serving Lao food. Then my husband will go to party event and he would tell people about what I cook in the restaurant, so they will come and order something that I don't have on the menu, some Lao dishes. And then people just got to-go and to the office and tell their friends, and they came with their coworkers. So that's how it work it out.

C: Was the restaurant successful from the beginning?

S: It was a surprise. I was really surprised it was. It was really surprised me a lot. So we didn't have much money to start with, and we were worried about paying rent. We were worrying about paying our staff. I was really lucky the word of mouth got out so fast about my cooking, so people who enjoy Thai food they come and, you know, like having Thai food. So we didn't have, I'm so thankful nowadays, we didn't have to go to the bank, we didn't have to go to our family, we didn't have to go running around finding money to pay for rent or our staff. The restaurant was just running by itself, you know, pay the staff, pay ourselves, and having enough to pay the owner on a monthly basis, so we got lucky. I guess because, I love what I'm doing, I guess because I put so much trust in my food, I have so much confidence in my cooking, and it works. I put a lot of love to it. That's why, maybe [laughs] Maybe? Cause I really enjoy it, so I really enjoy it. It's not like the job I go to and, you know, even though it's long hours, it's a lot of work, but at the end of the day, I feel happy. You know, I got up in the morning, I just happy to go to work. It doesn't matter how tired I was. At the end of the day, it just makes me really happy. So I just enjoying it. You know, part of success is doing what you love, I guess.

[01:50:50] 32

C: From our previous interview, you mentioned about the Washington Post food critic coming. After he wrote the review, what has changed?

S: It's really changed my life. [laughs] I have never thought, uhh, I thought about serving Lao food early on. When I first opened, umm, I didn't know, I had no idea that it's gonna get that big, right up like that. I have no idea. I did not expect it. When it was out, it was like crazy. I have no idea. I was shaking, I was nervous when he came. Not when he came, when he called, when the food critic called, I was nervous, I was freaking out because there is no way. There is no way. When it came out, I couldn't sleep for at least a month because he came and, I mean, he called for interview. He said, the paper gonna out on Thanksgiving, and I was like, I was having anxiety attack, stress, I couldn't sleep, I lost weight. When it came out, I was like, "oh my gosh." It was just surreal for me. It was surreal because it's, I remember my brother was there, we got in the car, we were ready to go to work. We were sitting outside and then news on WTOP or some TV mentioning Bangkok Golden, Laotian food, I was, "oh my god. That's crazy! What on earth just happened?" It's not even a year after I start this. I took over in March, yeah, and it happen in November. It's, it's, when I thought about it, I still like, "how the heck happened?" I couldn't believe it. It took off from there. The word got out and people curious what Laotian food is about. So we had lines everyday [laugh] after that. People just came and, before the write up, I didn't have the menu, so after the write-up, I decide to come up with a full-menu.

C: Who were your customers?

S: Variety. I was surprised. It's not, a lot of people ask me is there like Lao people that comes here. Lao people don't really like to eat out, I mean, especially Lao food. When we go eat out, we go eat out some other food. But as far as Lao food, people like their grandmother cooking, their mom cooking, so they prefer to eat at home. Umm, so it's variety. So we have, you know, all kinds of people. We have a lot of Caucasian, majority Caucasian, we have Asian, variety of different Asian ethnicity, different people. I really surprised. I was like, "wow, people actually sit here and enjoy Lao food. This is crazy!" You know, I have to sneak through, and I left the kitchen more often because I wanna see how people experience it. And then people ask for, you know, to talk to me, and the feedback is amazing.

I remember a couple that just happen to be at the store, at the grocery store, and they saw the sign, they kind of curious, it's Bangkok Golden, so "oh, let's go grab lunch from there." So they were just expecting that they will come and eat Thai food. When they came, they saw the Lao menu. I remember they order the laab tofu because they were vegetarian. And they asked us to speak to me, and they were like, they didn't have no idea what to expect it. They said, "this is changing their lives." you know, they were like, "wow!" They didn't know, they had no idea what the cuisine is, they have no idea what is Laos. So it's just like this is changing our life. You know, a lot of people came up and appreciate it and thank you for it.

C: What does it mean to be having good review from the Washington Post compared to others like Michelin Star, or James Beard? 33

S: It means a lot. It means a lot because going back to identity, going back to where is Laos, you know. We were so shy about our identity because we have to explain. And also some people would be like, "um, we also shy about our food." I mean, most people, not some, most of us afraid of, ashamed of what we eat because it's too spicy, too sticky, it's too strong for other culture to embrace it. So we didn't think that Lao food will make into the mainstream market is because it's too strange. [laughs] So when it hit Washington Post, I mean, early on, when I start serving, I was discouraged by my family members; "Don't do it because you're gonna fail." They said, "you can't do this. It's gonna fail. Lao food is not gonna work, you know, keep on doing Thai." So when the Post came out, for me, it's like a relief. It's, "gosh, I made it. I made it. I'm so proud. I'm so happy. And I'm not shy anymore. I can just say, I'm Lao." I mean, "Where are you from?" "I'm from Laos." And I can explain to people where is Laos because I'm so proud of it now, you know. Instead of being shy, being hiding under other culture, I'm not afraid of it anymore. Also, make my family proud, too. They really appreciate it. After the fact that they told me early on, now they are really appreciate that it happens, and read it on the papers. It's big. It's a big deal. [laughs]

[01:56:38] C: And you guys open a restaurant, started preparing for opening Thip Khao. How did that happen?

S: So how it happened was, so back in Bangkok Golden, I had a lot of people driving from D.C., after the Post, so people kind of curious, people in D.C. curious what is Lao food is about. It is something so new. So a lot of our guests actually drove, either drove or take a metro, take a Zipcar, so you see Zipcar parking in the [laughs]. You know, people embrace it, you know, they loved it. They would always ask us to speak to me, and, you know. I remember one of my guests taught me how, you know, what is corkage fee is about. We brought a wine [laughs] He brought a bottle of wine from D.C. I had no idea because Virginia, we don't do such thing. He brought a bottle of wine and said, "how much you are gonna charge us?" I said, "what do you mean? What is corkage fee?" I don't know what corkage fee, so I had to google what it is. [laughs] Now we become like good friends, you know, we will come with his friends and I have a real estate agent, when [unintelligible] with his girlfriend, and you know, they come with friends, and then we come like a small community, you know, like a friends.

Every time they come, they're like, "Seng, we have to drive. We want you in DC, you know, a lot of friends wanna come to your restaurant, but they didn't wanna, people don't wanna go across the bridge to go eat there. We need you in D.C. They wanna prove to our friend how food your food is." [laughs] So it's like a word of encouragement and my, one of my good friends now, Steve, actually went with his girl friend one day and dropped a map in front of my face, "here!" [laughs] He drop a D.C. map and he went through with me, each neighborhood. I have no idea what neighborhood this. I live in Virginia. I had no idea what's Adam's Morgan with [unintelligible], I have no idea. He's like "you have to come with me. We're gonna help you." I said, "okay, I'm ready." So me and my husband ready for it. So we just take a drive out here and, you know, he show us around and we were like, "we are ready. we ready." 34

So we have finance, a little bit finance to be ready, so we, "okay, the only thing that's gonna happen for us is like the finance we have wasn't enough to build a space, so we have to looking for a restaurant that's been existing, you know, that's been there operating and running." So we found this place, we found couple places, we didn't like it because of the neighborhood and the space. Because of the cuisine that we work, it has to be in a large kitchen because so much prep going on. So we found the kitchen here and we love it, you know, we went back to our friends and, you know, they were like, "okay, we are gonna help you. We're gonna help you negotiate with the landlord. We're gonna help you go through the process of get this place opening." Yeah, so it's the whole community in D.C. that actually like, you know, make it happen. They were helping us. When we ready to be open, they were there for us. They even suggested what to be on the menu. What we need on the menu, yeah. It's the whole community that make it happen.

[01:59:46] C: What was your impression of Columbia Heights?

S: The Columbia Heights actually I had no idea until the monk came for blessing. So before we opened, I came here, I love the neighborhood, I love the space, and it is reasonable for the rent. We love 14th street, but up here is cheaper, but I have no idea about the history of Columbia Heights until the monk came. So after they went out, and we were talking about the neighborhood, they were told me the story, I was like, "wow, I had no idea." So this neighborhood actually on Park Road, on street Park Road somewhere here, there's an apartment complex that's actually a resettle apartment for Lao refugees back in the 80s. And Action ICC (?) office here. It's called ICC, it's like for refugee resettlement center that actually have an office here. They still have the office somewhere here in Columbia Heights, which I have no idea. My husband never told me about it. He knew about it, but he never told me. "Oh my god. There's so much history here." So it's a neighborhood that a lot of my aunt and uncle knew about it. So it was like, they all end up, when they first came, all end up living in the apartment for short time before moving to Virginia.

C: Oh, wow. I didn't know about that.

S: I didn't know about that part, too, until I actually got here. I was like, "wow, that's amazing." [laughs]

[02:01:17 - 02:07:00] Break

C: So you came to Columbia Heights, and you learned all this story. How was it different from opening a restaurant in D.C. from opening a restaurant in Virginia.

S: Opening a restaurant in D.C. how is the difference, umm. At first, I thought it will be so hard. I guess it became easier for us because we took over an existing space and also because of my experience with the business, and also the guests, the name has been known, it's been out 35 there, the cuisine has been out there. So it's much less, easier because a lot of people that comes here, they have been to Bangkok Golden, so they are familiar with the cuisine, they know what is Lao food. And also easier for our staff, they don't have to go through like, we did went through when we start serving Lao food in Bangkok Golden because we have to explain what is Lao food. What is between Lao and Thai because we have two menu. And we also have to [unintelligible] our guests, where is Laos, how to eat Lao food. Here, what amazing is when we have a guest that came here that who's already been through Bangkok Golden, they came here and they already know how to eat. They know where is Laos, so they already told history and story about us to their friends. So it's much easier, so we don't have to, our staff, they don't have to go further, but a few guests, they are new, we still have to explain. But it's not quite challenging as over in Bangkok Golden. So it's less easier with the whole process.

C: What about in terms of laws, lease?

S: Yeah, the lease is high. Way much higher than Bangkok Golden. It's three times higher, but what we, you now, what I believe when I first decided to take over the space, I believe that, with the loyal guest that we had gain, you know, their loyalty from them, with the word of mouth that have been telling people throughout the years, we kind of like having, for me, I kind of like, "yeah, it's is expensive, but at the same time, I was working on a numbers with, you know, with our expenses, I think, "yeah, we can make it, you know, not as much profit margin as we were hoping and shooting for, as far as we have enough to pay our rent, our space, our cook, our manager team, so I should be fine with that." Because it's part of it for me to come here is not just about business, it's about sharing our food, our culture through our food, and telling the story about us, about who we are, about our identity, about Laos. So part of it is about, you know, the movement. It's about the food movement. It is about business, but at the same time, it's also about, you know, sharing our culture with the community, with the people. That's how we doing it. And only thing I can do it is with the food.

C: Why is D.C. important to send that message compared to Virginia and other places?

S: Because the crowd in D.C. is very diverse. It's also the people that live here is a lot diplomats, a lot of people work for government, a lot of people who travels, so it's easier because people here are very open for anything we serve on the menu. Based on the experience I have, when they drove to across the bridge to Bangkok Golden based on what I heard, they are willing to try anything. So it's much easier for me to go, I mean, we have a straightforward food in Bangkok Golden, but here I can do extra more. So yeah, with the crowd. And also with the social media and the community here, I feel like it's more welcoming to me to be opening more, to do more, to do extra more, more beyond than I had over there in Bangkok Golden.

C: Can you explain a little bit about social media? What do you mean by social media?

S: By social media I mean, the food that we sharing. So based on my experience is like when I make some special dishes, some dishes not on the menu, umm, some dishes that people don't think that I will serve. When I first came here, I was recommended to serve fermented fish, and 36

I did. So when you come in here, you smell it [laughs] So it's kind of like, for me, "oh my gosh, people actually gonna embrace it. They appreciate it." So I actually go extra wild, and I end up [unintelligible] to provide ant eggs. Ant eggs are such a delicacy in Laos, you know, it's like ant larvae, it's almost like Lao caviar, you know. [laughs] So I served that. I posted it. So anytime I came up with any exotic ingredients, I post it on social media, especially my Instagram account, umm, people interested in. People actually came. [laughs] I was like, "wow, this social media world is crazy." So people came. People actually say I came because of chef Seng post this, and I was like, "wow!" It actually helped us a lot. And also sharing our kitchen, our team, you know, about different ingredients. It's kind of like getting people more exciting.

C: I really like your social media cause it gives your personality. And I feel like by watching those posts, you feel more connected to your restaurant. When you come here, you have those images and videos back of your head. So it kind of feels like, "oh yeah, I saw her crew cooking in the kitchen, so I know what's going on in side the kitchen although I'm here (dining area)."

[02:14:22] S: Yeah, I actually heard that story a lot. People have told me feedback like you just did. That's why I keep continue doing it. Sometimes it's kind of like exhausting, you know, with mentality. Because, you know, it's kind of give me a challenge, too, when people criticize. So I do get people who send me a private message or criticize are on my own people. But I don't take it personally. So it's kind of give me encouragement to continue doing it. Certain things I do that is, it don't look the way it's supposed to, umm, so that's one of the challenge I have here. I mean with the Lao cuisine is with the people who came here that appreciate the food that I do, to being Lao food on the table, to put Laos on the map, we are so proud. At the same time, you know, people comes here and say, "okay, I think $9 or $10 for sun-dried beef is too expensive. You know, I can have my grandmother or my mom make it less. I can go to grocery store and pay $5 for it." I think that's quite challenging that the thing is about, we're trying to uplift the cuisine, uplift the food. We trying to work so hard to put the food out there at the same time, we get devalue, which is kind of challenge for me, mentality. We get Yelp reviews, or when we get people send me private message, "oh it's so expensive, this dish." Sometimes, I didn't like it, honestly. Sometimes, I hate it. It's like a relationship, love and hate. Sometimes I hate it, sometimes, I just wanna quit social media. But at the same time, you know what, it's actually help us a lot with the business. Help us uplift the cuisine, help us to have words out about Lao food, about Lao culture.

It's not only that it's also [unintelligible] other culture and encouragement, too. I do have other culture reach out, it's kind of encourage them to do it. To be proud, they want to bring their food and show their food to their friends, to other people who never had their food. It's kind of like give them encouragement, this is something I wanna do. I want to go back to my roots. I wanna be proud of my roots. I wanna serve, you know, my food that I grew up eating instead of changing it. I wanna go with what I grew up eating serving to the guests.' So basically, what I'm doing with Thip Khao is also, you know, encourage not just only myself, give encouragement to other people. When I was in event, I ran into a Vietnamese restaurateur. He had opened a restaurant many years ago, and he came up to me and "gosh, I wish you were here many years 37 ago." because he was discouraged, so he end up closing his restaurant for short time. So the word he's saying kind of give me the encouragement to do more, too. He's like, "keep doing it because it's not only for your culture, it's also for other culture." We need to embrace our food, our cuisine. Don't be shy about it. Just serve it as you would eat at home. And people now embrace it. We want to, you know, being true to ourselves instead of trying to be someone else, you know.

C: I think that's absolutely true. Especially a lot of Asian cuisines in the States has been thought to be cheap food, and using cheaper quality food, so people have this fixed idea of like, Asian food should be cheaper and now a lot of second generation or a lot of Asian American restaurateurs are trying to uplift their, elevate their own cuisine, or their cuisine of their heritage. So I think it's really important, important that you are doing the thing you are doing now.

S: So I talk to a lot of different chefs who are in D.C. We felt the same way, you know, we have to uplift it. If we are not, we are gonna go back to behind the grocery stores. It's now for us to move forward, just be proud, be happy, you know, to pay the price. It's the hard work that's putting into each dish. It's taking a lot of time, and also the team behind it, you know. It's something that we should appreciate it instead of devaluing.

[02:19:48] C: So before you open Thip Khao, you did Pop-up at Toki Underground? Can you tell us about it?

S: Yeah, it was 2013. Chef Erik (Bruner-Yang) reaching out to me. I was surprised, "wow, chef Erik reach out." I was very happy, I was like, "what is it about?" He said, " I think you should come in D.C. to pop-up. You wanna maybe test the market." I was like, "oh, wow. Really?" So that was the first encouragement for me. So I did a pop-up just for one night. We sold out. It was amazing. We sold out within two hours. I didn't have to do anything, I just prepared the food and he put out on social media. He took the reservation. We sold out within two hours. So we have people on our waiting list. I go very straight forward with the food that I've never had, I mean, half of the item is already served and half, it wasn't served. So I did some dishes that have never been served in Lao restaurant anywhere. With som paa, fermented fish, I actually serve that dish. That dish become everyone's favorite dish that night and I was like, "what?" At the end of the night, people give me a feedback and that was their favorite dish, the fermented fish. It was like a rice cured fish in the cooler for two, three weeks so they cure, and they sour. And I cooked it in the wok with tomato and ginger, some herbs, and serve with sticky rice. People had it and they were like, that was their favorite dish of all dishes. I was surprised, yeah. I was just like, "yeah, D.C. is ready!" [laughs] With that dish, that kind of give me the confidence, too. "Yeah, I can do this!"

C: How did you get to know Erik?

S: Erik was our guest, our customer. So he came with his wife pretty often. And I didn't know who he was until that day he was sitting with his wife and I went out to talk to the guest. He introduced himself and I was like, "oh my gosh, Toki Underground. I heard so many story. I always wanna talk to you. I always wanna meet you." He came, he came, and one day he called me and he's like, "I'd like you to come in," his engaged, he got engaged, I think it was 2013, we actually closed a restaurant for several hours, a few hours to, you know, for his engagement party. Yeah, so we had an engagement party for him.

C: Did you cook food?

S: Yeah, so we cooked some of his favorite dishes and his families. We did catering for him. I was surprised. Wow, of course, I will do it for Erik.

C: aww, that's so sweet. Bobby told us about like he worked at Toki Underground, too.

S: Yeah, he was staging when he was in culinary school. He was staging with them, I think a few months? Yeah, he really loved it. He learned so much. He learned so much how to work with different chefs [laughs] Not just his mom, with other chefs, "yeah, you gotta learn, experience from other chefs, too."

C: You did, After Dark at Chiko. It seems like you and Danny Lee and Yesoon Lee have been doing some collaboration before.

S: Yeah, chef community in D.C. is amazing. It's amazing. It's so supporting. They've been supportive ever since I was in Bangkok Golden. After the paper came, the Washington Post article out the first time, I've seen a lot of chef community there. I've seen a lot of different chef, different restaurants, different staff, you know, from restaurant from manager to server to chefs to owners. So I've seen a lot. And when I came here, we had such a connecting, I was so thankful, I was accepting immediately. I thought it's like, "hmmm, I'm kind of scared a little bit." I know how chef industry, I know different chefs. "hmm, I'm such a small, petit, you know." But they accept me, like immediately. I was surprised. Everyone just came here and talk to me, invite me to different events. The first event that I did was with Scott. Chef Scott Drewno. He was at The Source, and I was like, "gosh, the chef that I wanna cook with in DC will be chef Scott." So I always thought of that. And Erik, of course. When Scott reaching out, "do you wanna do this a crab event?" I said, "of course! I've always wanna cook with you, chef Scott." So it was my first event at The Source, doing a crab cake event. And I won! I've never done crab cake in my life because we don't have crab in Laos. I had no idea, I mean, I had crab cake, but I had no idea how to make it. So I had to get some advice for Bobby, you know, how to make crab cake and he said, what to bind the crab to make it a cake, so I come up with my recipe that I use in some of the dishes and put it together in the crab cake, and we won. We won the people's choice and we won the first place. [laughs]

[02:25:11] C: It was a competition between you and [crosstalk] 39

S: The other chefs. Yeah, Scott was hosting it. I remember there's a lot of chefs. There's like several chefs, yeah. And I did a pop-up After Dark with Danny Lee and Scott.

C: Why do you think D.C. chef community is so supportive?

S: I was surprised a few chefs came to me at the event. "Chef Seng you are a goddess." I was like, "What?" [laughs] I was like, I was like, "what?" "We have no idea how much we love you." I was like, "Wow, really?" It's just the word that they have told me, I was like, "I have no idea." I just to what I love. I just do what I'm doing. I have no idea. "You came to D.C. is wow!" I was like, "really?" I just doing it, I have no idea. It was the word that came out from a lot of chefs, I didn't expect that. A lot of them were just like, "we love you. we admire you." I was like, "really?" Oh my god, I don't know what to expect. I didn't know like this is so surreal how much they supporting, how much they, "you have courage." I was like, "oh really?" To put this funkiness in D.C. It's like, "really?" It's kind of made me proud, too, you know, it's kind of keep me going, too. Wow, I never expected, I never expected to be fit in with the chef community that quick, that fast. It just happened so quick. There's a lot of chefs that message me, they want to come and start here, you know, they want some of my advice, so I sat down with a few chefs. Because our kitchen, we are not ready to get people to start this, so I invite chef to come and have a meal, you know, we talk about certain ingredients, you know, we walk through certain ingredients, how I use herbs. Some chefs, they kind of curious about how I use so much herbs, so, you know, kind of sat through with a few chefs about, you know, some certain ingredients, kind of like mentoring. For me, it's like really? from a young chef? wow, this is crazy. And they are like really badass chef, too. [laughs] And they want my advice, really? So it's been a great experience, you know.

C: Were they mostly Asian American chef? or [crosstalk]

S: Uhh, variety. Mostly non-Asian. I was surprised that not Asian really interesting in the cuisine that we are doing. And also Southeast Asian cuisine. It's kind of amazing how people really appreciate it, especially with Southeast Asian ingredients.

C: After you opened Padaek and Thip Khao, has it influenced your identity as Lao?

S: Yeah. It has a big impact. It's a huge impact in my life, the community, myself. Myself also as a mom. [laughs] It's a big impact cause being a mom, and now having this title, I was like, "gosh, this is crazy." And also being Lao woman, you know, being a Lao woman, you know like a Asian petite woman standing among this amazing talent chef. And also open a restaurant where people like came here and I can see in their face, and they talk to my servers, my staff, how much they appreciate. It's changing my life and identity. I'm so proud. I'm not afraid to tell people who I am anymore, you know. And also kind of give encouragement to other Lao community, too, that we don't have to be shy anymore. We can do, we can just go, instead of hiding and opening other restaurants, we can just say we can open Lao restaurant now. We are proud of our culture, our identity, you know, and again, it's not just my own identity, it's other 40 culture, too. I'm just proud to be a person that have that courage. I have a guts to do. I don't listen to [laughs] I'm pretty stubborn, so I don't listen. People told me, "don't do it." I still do it. And it's kind of like the word they told me, "don't do it" is kind of give me motivating. It's kind of encouraging me. It's kind of like keep it me going. 'I can prove it. I can do it. I can make it.' So I'm just proud right now. I'm so proud. [laughs]

[02:30:25] C: You have your upcoming restaurant that you've been posting [laughs]

S: Yeah, so for me like, I wanna keep going. I like to opening as much as I can handle, of course, not too much. I like to stick with D.C. area. So I decided to open another one because I like to explore, I like to be creative, I like to stick with what I do right now is good, but I like to be creative, I like to play with different ingredients, with local ingredients with different culture, different food that I have been eating, and kind of like putting into a dish that is also identity in Laos. So the reason I wanna do this, and also the reason I chose the restaurant name is also encourage. Encourage do it.

C: What's the name?

S: We haven't announced the name yet.

C: This recording won't be released for a few months. I'm not gonna tell other people.

S: Okay, okay. Let's go back to Laos where I was hanging out in school playground. It's a monkey. It's just fascinating me staring at the arts. The monkey holding this knife with sword, fighting, like flying, and the mermaid. So I was curious, I didn't know what the story was about. Every time I go there, I just stare there, I'm just like, "wow" It's just kind of stuck in my memory, so when I went back in 2014, I went back to this temple, I went back to the school. I saw the art was still there. It was untouched, it's still the same. And I was like, "oh my god. It's gonna be this." [laughs] So the monkey is Hindu monkey. It's called Hanumanh. It's a Hindu story, it's about a brave monkey, depends on how you believe it. So my husband also got a tattoo in his back [laughs] So I've seen the monkey. So I decided to chose that as a theme of the restaurant because monkey also brave, bravery. It's gonna be named Hanumanh, so which is a Hindu word for that monkey. There is a deep story behind it. It depends on how you believe it. Some people believe it's bad, some people believe it's good, it depends, but for me, the way I believe it is that every time I saw that monkey, it's kind of like give me the courage, you know. It's kind of like a bravery, it's kind of like give me strength. That's why I chose that. [laughs]

C: What's the story?

S: Umm, the story is about a monkey, I don't know, I don't know the whole story. It's about a monkey become a warrior and then he was, I don't know the whole detail about it, but it depends on how people tell it, it's coming from a Hindi story, it depends on who told the story. So my husband told me that, you know, it can be bad. But, for me, the way I seeing it, it's good 41 because I saw the monkey, for me, the way he was holding the sword the way he is fighting. The way I have seen it, the art on the wall, it's kind of like, you know, very strong, bravery, courage monkey [laughs]

C: What neighborhood the restaurant is gonna be?

S: It's gonna be in Shaw neighborhood. It's very small.

C: Really! I live in Shaw.

S: Gosh, I can't believe I told you. JC will kill me [smiles] So it's gonna be, so basically when I first thinking about coming to D.C., we thought about a smaller space. Me and my husband thought about, we wanna find a smaller space. When we first, original idea that we wanna have a space with backyard. So what we found this place, we never found a place with backyard. So when I found this space that has a backyard, I was like, "gosh, this is what I want!" Because patio is nice, but I like backyard sitting. So we found this small space, originally for the noodle concept because I was launching with a chef who also a friend, we thought we are gonna go for with the business with the noodle concept. But we end up having different mindset, so I liked noodle, not to be much creative, we don't have room to be creative. If it's noodle, it's noodle. For him, which I understand, he's a chef, so he wants to be creative. So we kind of like split in a good way, so the space that I decide, "man, what am I gonna do with this space?" So then I went back to Laos, and I came back, and I was like, "okay, that's gonna be that monkey. It's gonna be a monkey bar." [laugh] So it's a restaurant and bar.

[02:35:36] C: Why did you choose Shaw neighborhood?

S: I chose Shaw because I was told that, well the lease is great. I like the neighborhood. It's upcoming neighborhood based on the research, based on the agent I talked to. I also like the backyard space. I like small. The next concept whatever that we are gonna do is something smaller than this (Thip Khao). Nothing's gonna be bigger than this. So it's a smaller space, so I decided to take that.

C: I feel like a lot of restaurant in D.C. that are popping up these days are pretty small. Even like Thip Khao feels pretty big.

S: Yeah, it's pretty big. It's pretty big. That's what I wanna go with the next concept we are gonna do, we are gonna stick with small. So it's about 20-30 seats inside with a bar. We're gonna focus on a lot of Lao inspired cocktails and, you know, the food that me and Bobby has been traveling, and has been eating throughout D.C. So we kind of like putting in together. So we are a little bit creative, using local ingredients, and we work with farmers, with local farmers.

C: So Bobby's gonna work in that restaurant, too? 42

S: Yeah, so we both gonna be working there, so Bobby still gonna be running the whole operation here (Thip Khao) and there (Hanamanh). He also gonna be, we are gonna come up with a dish together: his idea and my idea together.

C: When are you guys planning to open the restaurant?

S: Hopefully, late October? Right now we are waiting for a few things to be done. We still waiting for some furnitures and inspection. It's been a long process because it's a first project that we actually took over the space, that wasn't, nothing there. It wasn't a restaurant. It' wasn't like the two restaurants, we took over a space that is already up, running, you know. We just do a quick turnover, the other one (Hanamanh) was we just took over a salon space and we torn it down, you know, and pretty much we build everything. And the basement was a dirt basement, and we have to dig basement to make into like, we have to dig down two feet, to build a kitchen space down here. So it's been almost a two year project. It's a long process.

C: And it's coming to an end.

S: Yeah! Finally, finally.

C: Do you feel like D.C.'s food scene has changed from the time when you opened Thip Khao and when you are preparing for this restaurant?

S: Yes. It's changed a lot. It's changed a lot how people are really looking for a different things. When a new restaurant pop-up, for example, like Bad Saint, you know, and Supra with Georgian cuisine. People are like really wants to try, you know, some different cuisine. It's just not stick with the cuisine that we have here already, whichever the new cuisine pop up, everyone is talking and exciting about it. So it's a city that is really open, is willing to try, willing to accept any cuisine. I think any cuisine that comes to D.C. people will embrace it, people will like it. I think the city is, from based on my travel, I think D.C. is so much ready for anything.

C: Why do you think D.C. people are, became open and [crosstalk]

S: I guess because, umm, people are traveling. People in D.C. travel a lot. People in D.C. are young, you know. Young professional people willing to try different things for adventurous. More adventurous than a lot of city I travel, even in New York, I can see some of the dishes that's not gonna work. But in D.C. whatever we bring here, it works. People loved it, people liked it. So it's something that a lot of dishes that I thought it will not work, it works, so they stay on the menu. Give you one example that the dishes I will not think work is pork belly. I make it like a rice cure, like a fish I did in Toki Underground. So I used pork belly in stead of fish. I cure with rice and then we toss it in wok with mushroom and ginger, wood ear mushroom. That had become our best seller. Even my husband is surprised. He was like, "wow." and I said, "yeah!" And I told a lot of my Lao friend when they come, they were surprised, too. Yeah, D.C. is really ready for anything. I mean, based on my experience and I think a lot of city that are 43 ready for something, but it depends on where you are, you know. I mean, any big city is ready. When I was in Greensboro, I was helping opening up a Lao restaurant in Greensboro, NC, I mean, Greensboro was ready for Lao food, too. Based on my study on the local, we tone it down some of the dishes, but not a whole a lot. But in D.C. I don't have to tone it down. I just do straight forward, when you walk in here, you can smell fish sauce. [laughs]

[02:41:12] C: So with your Lao Food Movement, you've been consulting other restaurateurs for opening, trying to open Lao restaurant. Have you consulted any restaurants in D.C.?

S: No, not yet. I do, I haven't had any person that reach out to me in D.C. But I do have people from outside D.C., so basically when people reaching out for Lao Food Movement program, they travel here. So Thip Khao is like a place where they come and do research. So they will come to D.C., they will come to us. We will have them sit down and eat, and experience it themselves. And also they spend a night here observing who our guests, who's eating Lao food, how are they eat it, how they embrace it. So in this way, you know, it's like a research space for them. And we also walk them through our kitchen, you know, how the process of creating Lao food, you know, into a restaurant space. How to make different sauce. It's a program that is not just only Lao community. It's for anybody. It's for anybody that wants to open a Lao restaurant or Thai restaurant, or any restaurants, just come and see the basic. Any cuisine.

C: It's quite similar to what you did at Bangkok Golden, where you were just watching, how the restaurants operate. Then what's your life like outside of kitchen?

S: Umm, oh my gosh, what is my life right now outside the kitchen. I think I spend more time take care of myself. I do have, I did went through a lot of crisis in my life. [laughs] So I've been through with the crisis with almost lost everything. I went through like hit rock bottom, I went through ups and downs, and I went through the process of running the restaurants with a lot of stress. With the loss of my mother, you know, with all the stuff, I kind of like, at this point in time, I kind of like spending a lot of time traveling. I do try to take care of myself as much as possible. I do spend a lot of time hiking, I do a lot of time meditating, yoga. I do a lot like spend time alone. So sometime on my day off, I just go to coffee shop. Even not on my day off, I have time, I go to coffee shop and do nothing. I'd like to spend time a lot alone. In this way, I can refresh my memories and when I come back to work, I can be more creative. So I do a lot of time doing different activities and mostly by myself. I'm pretty independent, you know, I like to do things I wanna do. Luckily, my husband is very supportive and Bobby is very supportive. They understand. So they kind of like give me the space, give me time to take care of myself. Yeah, so actually I having, doing a time take care of myself two, three years now. Yeah, so I don't look as stressed as I was before. And because of Bobby [laughs] Bobby is actually my doctor [laughs] so he help me pay attention to myself, love myself more. Before I pretty much wanna take care of other people. I always wanna take care of other people, take care of my guest, and sometimes I forget about take care of myself. So nowadays I more take care of myself.

C: That's good. What do you think your life would have been different if you weren't an immigrant to this country?

S: I mean being immigrant gave me a lot of like motivating, you know. When we got here, we came here with nothing basically, just our shoes and our clothes. And going through, you know, having seen my mom and my stepdad working so hard to raise us, to bring food on a table... When we went to McDonald's, our luxury food [laughs] You know, going through hardship, being left the country, living refugee camp, and at some point, we were degrading, you know, because we are refugee, you know, degrading because of our culture, or our food. It's kind of help me, give me the strength to work my way up to get where I am now. I think without being immigrant or being refugee, I don't know if I will get at this point, you know. Because it's kind of like giving me a strength, give me courage.

[02:46:20] C: What's you next step in your life? What are your goals?

S: My goal is to keep doing what I'm doing. I don't wanna be lazy, so I wanna continue hands on cooking. So my goal is to open as much as restaurants I can handle. So no more than five [laughs]. What I like to do is I really like to have a smaller restaurant, where I can be intimate with my guests. So I like to have a smaller space, like a counter restaurant where I can cook and I can be intimate. I wanna do everything by myself, on my own, hopefully. That's my goal. I don't know when. Also, my goal is to talk to people as much as possible to share my story, continue share my story and tell people my story. And give people encouragement, and supporting the Lao Food Movement as much, so when people reaching out, I wanna be able to have time to reach back. spend time reaching back personally without JC. So I like to be personal. So continue to talk to people, continue to teach about Lao food, you know, continue to do what I'm doing right now. Doing traveling and consulting, you know, giving people encourage. It's okay to be who we are, to open a Lao restaurant. It's okay now. We can just use our Lao name to be a face of the restaurants, so we don't have to say Thai, you don't have to say Thai and Lao. Because they are accepting now, you know, we don't have to be afraid about it. We don't have to afraid about running a business with Lao name, it's gonna fail. So it's gonna succeed depends on how, I mean, if you determined, if you focused, if you have ability to do it, and just do it. It's not something that we should be shy anymore. So it's that word that I wanna keep sharing with the people, keep talking about it, especially our store here. Hopefully, I keep continue doing it for years and years.

C: Thanks for sharing your story. Before we wrap up our interview, was there anything that you wanted to talk more or you wanna add more?

S: It was fun. Thank you.