Vol. 730 Monday No. 201 10 October 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Media: Ownership Economy: Tourism Banking: Quantitative Easing Death Penalty Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders Live Music Bill [HL] Report Armed Forces Bill Third Reading Localism Bill Report (5th Day)

Grand Committee Welfare Reform Bill Committee (3rd Day)

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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what she asked. The point was made by Ofcom that House of Lords media plurality public interest tests can be triggered only by merger and therefore do not cover growth, Monday, 10 October 2011. which is the area that she was talking about.

2.30 pm Lord Ryder of Wensum: My Lords, in view of the fact that the ownership of websites has been excluded Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Wakefield. from previous legislation, what steps have the Government taken, and will they be taking, to rectify this serious Media: Ownership oversight? Question Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, my noble friend 2.36 pm Lord Ryder asks a fascinating and important question. In determining the appropriate size of media ownership, Asked By Lord Fowler we will be considering the extent to which websites To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they should be included. The current rules are outdated have plans for changing the media ownership rules and do not even acknowledge the existence of websites, in the United Kingdom. yet websites could conceivably have an important role in controlling access to new sources and have implications Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, we need a full and for plurality. That is why the Secretary of State has thorough consideration of all aspects of media ownership asked Ofcom to look into this matter, and we will legislation. The Secretary of State has asked Ofcom to consider carefully the recommendations that Lord examine what are the best options for measuring media Justice Leveson makes in this area. plurality and to recommend the appropriate approach. We will of course be taking into account the Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve: My Lords, will the recommendations of the Leveson inquiry before any noble Baroness tell the House whether, in considering final decision is taken on media ownership. issues of plurality, the Government will also consider issues of diversity, as these are not the same? Plurality does not always guarantee diversity, which is what Lord Fowler: I thank my noble friend for that reply, citizens need. but is it not the case that too often in the past decisions on media ownership have been influenced by political Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, plurality in the context considerations? Given that, does my noble friend agree of media ownership refers to the number of owners that it is totally wrong that, as at present, politicians and size of ownership of different media outlets and should have the final say on who owns the media, and does not cover diversity, as the noble Baroness mentioned. that if we want to prevent too much power resting in I am sure all noble Lords agree that a healthy democracy the hands of one company that system should be needs correct information, and, in general, to be able changed—and changed as quickly as possible? to participate effectively in a political process, access is needed to all sides of the debate. However, this is Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I would like to be unlikely to happen if the media are under the control able to give a more positive answer to my noble friend of a too tightly restricted number of owners. Lord Fowler but, as he and many noble Lords know only too well, we are at present having sensitive discussions. Lord Kinnock: My Lords, as the monopoly of opinion He is aware, too, that there is new legislation in the is the most fearful of all monopolies, is it not the case pipeline and we will be receiving a new communications that the accretion of power in the media should at Bill during this Parliament. However, I agree with least be subject to the same tests of competition as all him, as does the Secretary of State, that too much other forms of enterprise? political consideration has been taken, and as a result the Secretary of State said on 14 September at the Baroness Rawlings: The noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, Royal Television Society conference that he was looking makes a very valid point. In most cases, competition at whether we should have the same approach for rules will prevent unacceptable levels of media media plurality law as we do for competition law. It concentration. However, there is no guarantee of that, could be better for these decisions not to be taken by because competition rules address only the abuse of politicians, as my noble friend so rightly said, and we market power. It is possible for an organisation to are exploring this option. These are early days and no have a very large share of the market but not abuse its decisions have been taken. As I said, we will consider position for unfair competitive advantage. This would the recommendations on this. be acceptable in competition terms but it could still cause very real worries from the point of view of Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, why have media influence, as the noble Lord said. Her Majesty’s Government refused to use Section 58(4) of the Enterprise Act to fill the gaps that were Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: My Lords, I clearly identified during the BSkyB bid? have just come from sitting on the Joint Committee on Privacy and Injunctions. Can the Minister reassure the Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I am afraid that I House that the furore over the behaviour of certain cannot remember which section the noble and learned sections of the Murdoch press will not result in a Baroness was talking about, but we are fully aware of detrimental encroachment on press freedom? We do 1317 Media: Ownership[LORDS] Economy: Tourism 1318

[BARONESS BONHAM-CARTER OF YARNBURY] that tourism is the probably the number one industry not want hacking, but we do not want our press not in more parliamentary constituencies than any other being able to investigate. Perhaps I may remind noble private sector industry? Lords that it was not politicians or the police but the Guardian newspaper that exposed the hacking scandal. Baroness Garden of Frognal: Certainly my Lords. Visit Britain has created the You’re Invited programme Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, if there is a renewed to showcase Britain to the world and to attract more bid, it will have to be looked at on its merits. As with overseas visitors, and that is backed by a £100 million any other bid, on another occasion it could be possible marketing fund, funded by the Government and the to include additional grounds for intervention, such as private sector. Certainly that will be used to make the a genuine commitment to broadcasting standards. most of the international interest in the royal wedding, However, we are not proposing to frame legislation and to build on that for the major events, marketing with the aim of blocking any specific deal. If or when and PR activity that will focus on the diamond jubilee we come forward with proposals, they will have to celebrations as well as the London Games themselves. protect plurality in all circumstances. As regards the noble Lord’s second question, tourism is vital to the nation, but in particular parts of the Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, does the country it is a major form of employment. Minister agree that, in the light of all that has occurred, it would be unwise for the Prime Minister or the Lord Harrison: Will the Government acknowledge Secretary of State to meet members of the Murdoch that inward tourism is the major export industry, and family privately? Can she give an assurance that it is a successful one, in the United Kingdom? When will now the policy that any such meetings will be attended the Government get rid of the pernicious air passenger by civil servants and properly minuted? duty which so inhibits visitors coming to this country and spending their money here? Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness knows that no meetings are allowed to Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, we constantly take place without civil servants being present. look at the different factors which might inhibit people from coming here. On air passenger duty, the noble Lord may not agree, but aviation is relatively lightly Noble Lords: Oh! taxed in comparison to other forms of taxation. There is a consultation out for this which we will be looking Economy: Tourism at closely, and will be hoping to come back before the Question end of the year to see whether there are factors which might cause a need to look again at air passenger duty. 2.45 pm Lord Cormack: My Lords, does my noble friend Asked By Lord Lee of Trafford agree that the millions of tourists who come to enjoy our great heritage assets and our beautiful countryside To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their do not, as a rule, come to admire burgeoning wind current assessment of tourism’s contribution to the farms? In view of the very questionable benefit to our United Kingdom economy. energy supplies that these monstrosities produce, will my noble friend talk to her colleagues in the appropriate Lord Lee of Trafford: My Lords, I beg leave to ask departments to ensure that tourism is not killed off by the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. turbines? In doing so, I declare an interest as chairman of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions. Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, burgeoning wind farms are slightly outside my remit for this Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, tourism Question, and there are those who think they are directly supports 1.7 million jobs, with visitor spend of rather beautiful in particular circumstances. I will £90 billion each year. Deloitte estimates a direct and leave that question for another day. indirect value to the UK economy of £115 billion, and suggests that tourism could indirectly and directly Baroness Billingham: My Lords, given the support a total of nearly 3 million jobs by 2020. The importance of tourism to our economy, what possible Government’s tourism policy launched in March includes explanation can the Minister give for ignoring the a range of proposals to help tourism achieve its potential potential of a 10 per cent increase in tourism at no as a central part of Britain’s growth strategy. cost whatever just by stopping putting the clocks back in this ridiculous way, which we do year after year. It Lord Lee of Trafford: Following the very happy and is madness. Can she tell us why she is doing it? successful royal wedding, visitor numbers at Buckingham Palace have risen by 30 per cent, and at Westminster Baroness Garden of Frognal: Once again, I really Abbey by 60 per cent. Given the obvious popularity of cannot claim sole responsibility for daylight saving. the monarchy, will my noble friend tell the House what This issue comes up on various occasions in different plans the Government have to promote the Queen’s contexts. A Private Member’s Bill going through the diamond jubilee next year? Also, does she now agree other place is looking at this. The issue will not go 1319 Economy: Tourism[10 OCTOBER 2011] Banking: Quantitative Easing 1320 away and is under constant discussion. The one thing Banking: Quantitative Easing the Government have made clear is that they would not wish the four countries of the UK to be on Question different timescales. We wish all four countries to agree if we make the change. 2.52 pm Asked By Lord Barnett Lord Storey: My Lords, we have heard that the Government have identified tourism as one of the five To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent industries which will drive the UK economy. Given discussions have been held by the Chancellor of the that next year we join the EU Emissions Trading Exchequer regarding the sale of government-held Scheme, which will see taxation for travellers to the shares in Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds TSB, UK increase, and given that many of our European and regarding the effect of additional quantitative competitors are doing away with aviation taxation to easing on that sale. stimulate tourism, what is our response to protecting our own tourism industry, also given that, in terms The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord of tourism taxation disadvantage, the UK is 134th out Sassoon): My Lords, Treasury Ministers and officials of 139? have meetings with a wide range of organisations. It is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all Baroness Garden of Frognal: My noble friend raises such meetings a very important issue. We are fully aware that tourism UK Financial Investments—UKFI—manages the is a very competitive industry, so the UK must always Government’s shareholdings in the banks. UKFI aims ensure that it is not being outgunned on different to dispose of the shares in an orderly manner and it fronts by other countries, that the unique assets in our continues to monitor market developments and to countries, which tourists might want to visit, make it look at the range of alternatives. The ultimate decision worth while and that the finances do not discourage to proceed with any transaction will rest with HM people from coming here rather than going elsewhere. Treasury. All these matters are currently under consideration to try to ensure that we make the most of people coming Lord Barnett: My Lords, I am glad to hear that. to our country and that they get a warm welcome here. However, last week it was reported that the Governor of the Bank of England told the Chancellor that he Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, tourism is would not use QE to help the banks, including presumably clearly one of the most important potential growth the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds, but, in fact, sectors in the economy. Can the Minister explain what the quarterly review said that the Government authorised the Government have done to ameliorate the damage the Bank to pursue a number of activities targeted to caused to the tourism industry by the riots last August? improve the facilities of banks. Who is making decisions here: the governor or the Chancellor? Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, that is obviously a very concerning issue on all sorts of fronts, one of which is tourism. The pictures that went around Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I think we risk straying the world were not such as would attract people to from the Question. I know that, in a masterly wheeze, come to this country. We hope that more positive words about QE were added to this Question late in messages have gone out since then. The causes of the the day by the noble Lord, Lord Barnett. I think that riots are obviously being looked at, tackled and addressed, quantitative easing is one of many questions relevant but we hope that we will send out positive messages to the sale of bank shares but a relatively small about the parts of the country which were not subjected consideration in present circumstances. Given that the to riots so that people are not deterred from coming to Question is about the sale of bank shares, this is one of visit this country. many factors that is relevant.

Lord Tanlaw: My Lords, will the noble Baroness Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, although agree that, as a matter of information, all timescales privatisation of RBS and the Lloyds Banking Group— are not the same, as she said in her reply, because ideally after separating completely the retail and investment Scotland and Wales have to rely on Westminster for operations of the two groups—is clearly some way off, theirs whereas Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man does my noble friend recognise that the immediate are able to choose their own? There was an amendment need is for the Government to adopt a much more to the Scotland Bill which allows the Scots to choose hands-on relationship with them than hitherto to ensure their own timescale and so increase their tourism by an adequate flow of lending to small businesses? having lighter evenings if they so wish. Lord Sassoon: I very much agree with my noble Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I cannot friend that the immediate priority is not so much really add to my previous Answer. It is for the Government consideration of the sale of the banks—UKFI will to consider that they wish the four countries of the continue to monitor that closely—but to keep credit UK to be on the same timescale. My understanding is flowing. In relation to that, the Merlin agreement is that most of the resistance comes from Scotland, critical. We treat the management of RBS and Lloyds rather than Northern Ireland, for very valid reasons in on an arm’s-length basis, but we will ensure, as we which some people there believe. We shall just have to have, that we have an agreement with all the major wait to see how this discussion unfolds. banks to increase lending on what it was last year and 1321 Banking: Quantitative Easing[LORDS] Death Penalty 1322

[LORD SASSOON] Lord Sassoon: Yes, my Lords, I can absolutely give what it otherwise would have been. The third quarterly that assurance. numbers will be released under the Merlin agreement shortly. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the Minister will have appreciated the fact that two of the more Lord Myners: My Lords, given that the Governor challenging questions have come from his own side, of the Bank of England has said that we are in the from the noble Lords, Lord Lawson and Lord Newby, worst financial crisis since the 1930s and, conceivably, about the future of RBS. What preparations are the ever, how can it possibly be sensible for the Government Government making for recapitalisation of RBS if to be actively seeking to sell the taxpayers’ interest in that proves to be necessary? Northern Rock to City financial institutions? Lord Sassoon: My Lords, it would be completely Lord Sassoon: My Lords, we have a portfolio of wrong in any circumstances to speculate on individual banks which the Government either wholly or partly banks. The FSA, the Bank of England and the Treasury own. The Question was about Lloyds and RBS, but we look at all sorts of scenarios in relation to banks and also, as the noble Lord well knows, own Northern other systemically important parts of the financial Rock and Bradford and Bingley. It is within the mandate system. As a result of the recapitalisation of the banks of UKFI, which was set down by the previous and the stringent stress tests which the FSA has conducted Government, of whom the noble Lord was a member, repeatedly, the UK banking system is well recognised to have responsibility to seek over time to realise value by the credit rating agencies and by many other from the banks. That is precisely what it is exploring in commentators and is in a relatively good situation. We the context of Northern Rock. It is following the now want to see stress tests carried out right across the noble Lord’s policy. European banking system as a matter of urgency to proper standards. Lord Newby: My Lords, given the downgrading by Moody’s last week of the credit rating of a number of British banks, do the Government think that they will Death Penalty have to recapitalise RBS and Lloyds? Question Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the downgrading by Moody’s 3pm last week was long expected by the markets. It is Asked By Baroness Stern largely a reflection of the fact that under the Vickers proposals—the independent commission’s proposals— To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress there will be a different relationship between the banks they have made with their Strategy for the Abolition and the taxpayer: the taxpayer will not be on the hook of the Death Penalty, published by the Foreign and for the banking system in the way that it was. As a Commonwealth Office in October 2010. result, as expected, Moody’s changed the ratings on a number of banks. Equally, it made it clear that that Baroness Stern: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the was not a reflection on the well capitalised state of the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In UK banking system. The UK banks continue, as so doing I declare an interest as I chair the All-Party Moody’s and others have said, to be in a more robust Group on the Abolition of the Death Penalty. state to withstand shocks from the eurozone than banks on the continent of Europe. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, the Lord Peston: My Lords, I am not sure that I understood Government’s Strategy for the Abolition of the Death one of the noble Lord’s earlier answers. Does the Penalty was indeed launched in October 2010. We Treasury expect to get back all the money it has put have made considerable progress and today the updated into the two banks mentioned in the Question? If so, strategy has been laid in Parliament and published on when can we expect to see that money? the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website. We have raised the issue of the death penalty at all levels Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I do not think that I bilaterally and through the European Union, including touched on that point in a previous answer at all. in specific cases of British nationals and others. We UKFI has a responsibility, on behalf of the Government, continue to fund a range of projects, including in to look, over time, at ways to create value out of the China, Nigeria and the Middle East as well as in shareholdings, and that is what it will do. There is no Commonwealth countries in the Caribbean and Africa. question of any particular benchmark; we need to ensure that the taxpayer gets maximum value, subject Baroness Stern: I thank the Minister for that positive to questions of competition and financial stability, reply and for the excellent efforts that the Government over time, from the holdings in the banks. That is the are making on this subject. Can he confirm that 21 out mandate that UKFI has. of 58 Commonwealth countries are still using the death penalty and that there are over 11,000 people on Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, when death row in the Commonwealth? Does he expect any the moment comes for the disposal of the bank shares, progress to be made at the Commonwealth Heads of can my noble friend give an assurance that the Government Meeting in Perth this month on raising Government will make a more responsible decision the question of abolition or, failing that, the question than was contained in the sale of gold by the previous of minimum standards, so that people are not condemned Administration? to death without a fair trial? 1323 Death Penalty[10 OCTOBER 2011] Armed Forces Bill 1324

Lord Howell of Guildford: I am grateful to the noble rights in Iran at the UN, which will include language Baroness for chairing the All-Party Group and for her on the use of the death penalty in Iran. However, I feel thanks. I have to be realistic about the prospective that the words that I am uttering are hardly adequate pattern at the Commonwealth Heads of Government to express the horror that we all feel. Meeting in Perth. It is going to be difficult to get this issue on to the agenda and it would be silly to pretend The Lord Bishop of Wakefield: My Lords, I was otherwise. HMG’s focus is going to be on pressing for grateful for the Written Ministerial Statement that we the introduction of a commissioner for democracy, received today from the Government on the death the rule of law and human rights, as recommended by penalty. Will the Government also give particular the Eminent Persons Group and supported by a number attention to the death penalty being used in Iran in of Commonwealth countries, as a force who would be cases of blasphemy and apostasy? I bear in mind the in a good position to promote this cause. If I promised case of Youcef Nadarkhani, the Iranian pastor who anything more than that, I would be misleading the faces execution for failing to renounce his Christian noble Baroness. faith.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I declare an Lord Howell of Guildford: The right reverend Prelate interest as representing a number of people on death is quite right to raise this case. We are deeply concerned row in Trinidad and Tobago. Is the Minister aware of for the fate of Pastor Nadarkhani. In a statement on the Government of that country’s attempt to amend 28 September, my right honourable friend the Foreign the constitution to reintroduce hanging earlier this Secretary deplored reports that the pastor was being year and of the concerns expressed by Amnesty forced to recant his faith or face the death penalty. International? What steps are this Government taking Alongside my right honourable friend, I pay tribute to to monitor any deterioration in human rights in Trinidad Pastor Nadarkhani’s bravery in the face of such threats. and Tobago since the declaration of the state of emergency We will continue to work closely with our EU partners in August 2010? to try to ensure that the pastor’s legitimate rights to freedom of religion and belief are met. Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, Trinidad and Tobago has just been through the UN universal periodic Business of the House review process, looking at human rights across the Motion on Standing Orders board. It has also announced the abolition of the death penalty for felony murders, although that does 3.07 pm not meet the problem that my noble friend rightly Moved By Baroness Anelay raised. The United Kingdom raised the issue of the That Standing Order 40(1) (Arrangement of the death penalty during that UN review process. I observe Order Paper) be dispensed with on Tuesday 11 October that the debate over the death penalty in Trinidad and and Wednesday 12 October to enable proceedings Tobago is closely linked to problems of serious crime on the Health and Social Care Bill to take place and a related state of emergency, as my noble friend before oral questions. indicated. The UK has seconded a criminal justice adviser to work alongside the Trinidad and Tobago Motion agreed. Government. That is all I can tell my noble friend at the moment. Live Music Bill [HL] Report Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, one of the most repellent aspects of this issue is when the Report received. death penalty is used against young people under the age of 18. The Minister spoke of progress in his initial Armed Forces Bill answer. Can he tell us whether any progress has been made Third Reading in respect of approaches to Iran over its use of the death penalty for crimes of a so-called moral nature, 3.08 pm particularly for young women under the age of 18? Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I invite noble Lords to leave the Chamber as quietly and Lord Howell of Guildford: I must confess to the quickly as possible so that we may hear from the noble noble Baroness that I find it difficult almost to find the and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley. words to express my disgust and contempt at the news coming out of Iran, in this case relating to the execution not of a young girl but of a young boy. I was appalled Amendment 1 to hear of that execution, which was conducted in the Moved by Lord Craig of Radley most revolting way. He was subjected to the worst 1: Clause 2, page 2, line 3, leave out from “section” to form of execution—suspension and strangulation—in “Armed” in line 4 and insert “343 of AFA 2006 insert— front of a public crowd. The president of Iran has said “PART 16A that Iran does not execute children under the age of Armed forces covenant report 18, but that appears to be contradicted by that horrific 343A”” event, which contravenes the international obligations to which Iran has signed up. We have of course raised Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, the amendment is this case with the Iranian authorities and will work in the names also of the noble Lords, Lord Astor of extremely hard to secure a strong resolution on human Hever, Lord Wallace of Saltaire and Lord Ramsbotham. 1325 Armed Forces Bill[LORDS] Armed Forces Bill 1326

[LORD CRAIG OF RADLEY] clause to a different position in a new Part 16A of the I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Astor Armed Forces Act 2006. The new part will be entitled of Hever, for inviting me to lead on this amendment. “Armed Forces Covenant Report”. So, in the future, The issue is one that I first raised at Second Reading the covenant report will have its own part within the last July. I felt strongly that Clause 2, dealing with the legislation. military covenant, was not getting the visibility and This is a good outcome. Once again, I am grateful treatment that its importance to all service personnel, to the noble and gallant Lord for his helpful and to veterans and to their families—a very large constructive approach. I pay tribute to his resolve in constituency—deserved. pursuing this matter and I am pleased that we have The Prime Minister and other senior Ministers been able to meet his concern. have repeatedly stressed the high esteem in which they I should now like to speak to the government hold the Armed Forces and said that they were determined amendments in this group. Further to discussions at to give formal recognition to this as part of the law of the Bill’s Report stage, these amendments clarify the the land. However, the Bill before the House inserts a role that Ministers and departments other than the single clause giving meaning to those sentiments at the Ministry of Defence will have in contributing to the annual tail end of ad hoc and miscellaneous provisions of the report. If the amendments are approved, the Defence Armed Forces Act 2006. Regrettably, it will follow Secretary would be under an obligation to obtain the immediately after Section 359, which deals with pardons views of the relevant government departments on the for servicemen executed for disciplinary offences in matters covered in the annual report, and to seek World War I. those of the relevant devolved Administrations. He There was a stark mismatch between the fine sentiments will be required to set out those views in full, or to of the Ministers and the derisory legislative approach summarise them in the annual report. In the case of a intended. I argued for a special part of its own for the summary, he will need to obtain the department’s covenant in the Act to emphasise and reflect the agreement to any summary. importance of this government initiative. We have accordingly responded to requests from The collusion of noble Lords who support me in several noble Lords to bring forward proposals of our this amendment demonstrates that a very satisfactory own on the subject. I am very grateful to officials in outcome has been reached—albeit after some hesitation the department and elsewhere who have been able to by the Government. This amendment inserts Clause 2 get the amendments ready in time for the House to as a new stand-alone Part 16A of the 2006 Act. This consider them this afternoon. When we come to the far more adequately reflects the importance of this amendments later, I hope that the noble Baroness, new legislative initiative of the Government. Lady Taylor, and her colleagues and the noble Lord, I am most grateful for the way that both the Lord Empey, will accept that the three amendments in noble Lords, Lord Astor and Lord Wallace of my name and that of my noble friend Lord Wallace Saltaire, have helped in achieving this satisfactory meet the aims of their own amendments. I also hope outcome. I pay tribute to their efforts in support of that they will accept that the formulation that we have an amendment that, from the time that I first raised adopted fits better into Clause 2 and reflects the it, has engaged their personal interest and sympathy. I legislative conventions by avoiding references to other am also very impressed by the strenuous efforts of all Secretaries of State. the officials involved, working in very shortened During the passage of the Bill I have sought to timeframes, to get this amendment, and Amendments 5, make it clear to noble Lords that the Government are 6 and 7, into shape and through all the necessary committed to an open and inclusive approach in preparing hoops of government. They have done us all proud. I the annual report in order to maximise its value to thank and congratulate them. Thanks to all these Parliament. The statements that I placed on the record efforts, Amendment 1 has, I believe, the Government’s at Report taken together with the amendments that we full support. I beg to move. are now considering lay a strong foundation for the future. I accordingly invite your Lordships to approve The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry the government amendments. of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, for 3.15 pm his kind words. He first mentioned his concern during the Bill’s Second Reading. He made reference to the Baroness Taylor of Bolton: My Lords, perhaps I unfortunate juxtaposition that would result from the may say a few words about the government amendments Armed Forces covenant clause being inserted into the that we have now seen and thank the Minister for his Armed Forces Act 2006 directly after Section 359, co-operation in listening to the voices of several Members which deals with pardons for soldiers executed during of this House on all sides who raised the issue at the First World War. Since then, he and I have had Second Reading, in Committee and on Report. It has several exchanges. We have discussed the possibility of perhaps taken a little longer than we would have liked a printing change that would remove the need for a to have reached this position, which is very much a formal amendment, and considered the possibility of last-minute position, but very real progress has been adding provision to the next Armed Forces Bill. At made. Those of us who have been have involved in the each stage, as the noble and gallant Lord has said, I passage of the Bill will want to acknowledge and have made clear my sympathy for the point that he thank both Ministers and officials for the level of raised. I am therefore pleased to be able to support his co-operation and the constructive outcome that we amendment, which will have the effect of moving the have. 1327 Armed Forces Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Armed Forces Bill 1328

I particularly mention Amendment 7, which is Lord Rosser: My Lords, we, too, welcome the important in making it clear to those entitled to be amendments moved by the Minister in response, I covered by these provisions exactly what their positions think, to Amendments 6 and 7 moved on Report and are. They are named in different categories so no one also Amendment 1 moved by the noble and gallant who is entitled should have any doubt that the Armed Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, just now with government Forces covenant will apply to them. support. We appreciate the work of the Minister and We have had a good level of co-operation. We have his officials, first, in listening to the points being made proved the usefulness of this House for those who since the Bill was first debated in your Lordships’ have any doubt and I am sure that in another place House and, secondly, in bringing forward the these changes will be widely welcomed. I appreciate Government’s own amendments to address those the work and co-operation on all sides of the House. points—amendments which I am sure have support We should all be very pleased with the conclusions from all sides of the House. and the final drafting that we have. Amendment 1 agreed. Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I first speak to Amendment 1, which is in my name as well as that of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig. I repeat his Amendment 2 thanks to the Minister and his officials and to the Moved by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff officials in this House who came in for some criticism 2: Clause 2, page 2, line 11, after “housing;” insert— the other day for possibly being slow over this matter. “( ) in the operation of inquests;” In Committee and at Second Reading a number of us made comments about how the veterans part of this covenant would be overseen. I am enormously Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I am most grateful for the way that the Government have moved grateful to the Minister and officials for the time they and for the amendments now before us. However, have spent looking at all aspects of the Bill and the thinking through how this might happen, I still think amendments we have just debated are most welcome. I that in the years to come the Government may well now want to return to the question of including the find that they will have to have somebody outside the operation of inquests in the annual report on the Ministry of Defence responsible for overseeing the Armed Forces covenant. This would be incorporated delivery of the veterans part of the covenant. A number into the new wording of the Bill. of us have suggested in the past that that would be It is important to consider that in this part of the better done by having a Minister for veteran affairs in Bill “service people” means, the Cabinet Office. I suggest that whoever is given that “members of the regular forces and the reserve forces … members appointment will also need someone like a commissioner of British overseas territory forces who are subject to service law responsible for the 24/7 oversight of the work being … former members of any of Her Majesty’s forces who are ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom … and relevant family done for veterans in response to whatever is presented members”. by the various Ministers in each of the annual reports. I welcome the Minister’s comments that the report Lord Empey: My Lords, I, too, speak to must be open and inclusive and I would hope that the Amendments 5, 6 and 7. I, too, am grateful to the operation of inquests could therefore also be included. Minister for his attention to these matters. I recall The covenant report is to be about the effects of when I first went to see him in July that his officials membership or former membership of the Armed were somewhat sceptical about the need for some of Forces on service people. The reference group would these changes. But if these amendments are accepted, steer and guide the detailed content of the report in the Bill will leave the Chamber a better and stronger relation to healthcare, education and housing and in piece of legislation than when it came in. The military such other fields as the Secretary of State may determine. covenant is gradually being defined to the extent that Why do we need the operation of inquests in the it will mean things to people. I was anxious to avoid Bill? I suggest it is needed because the quality of some potential political slip-ups in the future, particularly civilian inquests is very variable and there is no office with regard to devolved regions, and to try to ensure a of chief coroner to address that. This amendment degree of compatibility and comparison in terms of would complement such a post whenever it comes into the treatment available to people in different parts of being. Currently, the narrative verdict is used differently the country so that over time we did not see disparities by different coroners and the information in the narrative developing. verdict is not collated. However, it is important data, I thank the Minister for communicating with us particularly in relation to former members of Her and making himself and his officials available, which I Majesty’s forces. For example, self-harming behaviours think has contributed to the comments that have just that are fatal may be linked to previous trauma. The been made. I believe that we can now move forward in long-term effects of emergency resuscitation techniques a much stronger position with the concerns raised on in the battlefield or from the use of equipment may as all sides of the House addressed. I certainly will be yet be unknown but they will emerge with time. Of supporting these amendments. course, many ex-service personnel die and there is no inquest—they die in civilian life and die of diseases Lord Boyce: My Lords, I would just like to associate like everybody else. myself with the words of the noble Baroness, Lady However, sometimes there is an inquest. I take Taylor, and others about the co-operation and adaptability asbestos as a specific example from history. The family shown by the Minister. of some people develop mesothelioma from inhaling 1329 Armed Forces Bill[LORDS] Armed Forces Bill 1330

[BARONESS FINLAY OF LLANDAFF] any other reports that get laid before Parliament. But asbestos fragments that were on the clothing of the when the frequency goes down, it will ensure that person exposed. As asbestos-related death has to be military deaths continue to be monitored, reported related to a coroner, such data were picked up. A and catalogued. It will ensure that there is a record of current example that may be pertinent is those with inquests held on those actively serving, respecting Gulf War syndrome. I know that these personnel are their memory, and will allow collation of deaths of being followed, but when they die, inquest data will those who died after leaving the forces and whose become important. deaths, for whatever reason, were the subject of an The long-term sequelae of battlefield injuries may inquest, thereby providing important epidemiological result in early deaths in civilian life. Cataloguing these data in the long term. can provide information for trauma management in These annual reports, as they are proposed and as I future and the information will not be captured unless hope they become, will be a historic document of our inquests into deaths of ex-service personnel are specifically forces’ health and welfare. I suggest that we must also catalogued. I am aware that many do not want to be record their sacrifices of life through active service. I followed up when they return to civilian life. They beg to move. want to get on with their lives and put the past behind them. That makes health follow-up particularly difficult Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I support my noble and is precisely why unnatural and untimely deaths, as friend Lady Finlay in this amendment, having also would be referred to a civilian coroner, may represent supported her in the campaign to get the chief coroner the only point at which long-term sequelae of active into post as part of the Public Bodies Bill. She has service could be picked up. already mentioned that. I mention this because it has I return to the operation of the inquests themselves. been 149 years since the coroners legislation was last Those who die on active service are subject to support updated, and it is now not fit for purpose. Those from the Defence Inquest Unit of the Ministry of constituents who are finding it so are the families of Defence. It provides coroners in the civilian world those armed servicemen who are killed overseas. They with a summary of the incidents in which people have have to wait an inordinately long time now for the died on active service and suggests who to call as inquest. This adds to their distress and is the very witnesses. The unit meets the pledge in the covenant to antithesis of everything that the Armed Forces covenant support the bereaved, but it is involved in the inquests is all about. Therefore I hope that by putting this in only on those on active service, including those who the Bill and having it included in the annual report on die in training. Sadly, year on year, there are deaths in the covenant, we will put pressure on those who ought training; one man died very recently. The tragedy is to see that the coroners regulations and way of operating that the number of deaths in training really does not is updated and made fit for purpose, particularly for seem to be falling year on year; it seems almost to be our servicemen and their families. flat-lined. The Lord Bishop of Wakefield: My Lords, I, too, The Armed Forces covenant document requires support this amendment. Once again, I thank the that help and support are given to the bereaved families, Minister for all that he has done in helping us forward as is done by the Defence Inquest Unit, but it does not on the covenant. I have seen all too often in the see city specifically state that the operation of inquests themselves of Wakefield recently the tragic sight of funerals at the will be monitored. Yet some bereaved report experiences cathedral of people who have lost their lives in at these inquests that were unexpected and deeply Afghanistan. The clergy often finds itself at the sharp traumatic. The waiting time for inquests has only end of this, as it were, because it is trying to minister to recently fallen and has not yet reached the target time families who are feeling particularly raw through the of nine months. Bereaved families often feel unable to normal outcome of war and the sadness that that grieve properly awaiting the inquest, and my concern brings. is that unless we maintain a spotlight on inquests themselves the timing may slip. In civilian life we know I support the amendment for two reasons. First, the that some people are waiting up to seven years for an delays that we have heard about reinforce that rawness inquest. and sense of loss that families find so difficult to cope with, particularly having lost loved ones in these tragic Currently, the quarterly reports to Parliament are a and, in some ways, unforeseen circumstances. Although very important catalogue of deaths, but the reports people realise that they are taking a risk when they will cease when we are no longer in the theatres of war. join the military forces, somehow one always thinks The reference group for the report on the covenant that it will be someone else who actually dies in battle. will include the Royal British Legion, which has been Secondly, there should be proper monitoring of very active in campaigning for a chief coroner. Despite what is going on, as the noble Baroness said. It seems all the discussions since the Public Bodies Bill, no to me that remembering people who have lost their development has obviated that need. To have the lives and having them recorded is essential in this operation of inquests on the face of the Bill will process. The fact that it is not going to cost anything complement such an office; it will not replace it. ought to encourage us to go with this amendment. I This amendment will not incur expenditure; it will realise how much the Minister and the Government ensure joined-up government between the Ministry of have worked to improve the Bill, but if we do not Defence and the Ministry of Justice, the latter having include this amendment, I think that ultimately it will responsibility for inquests. The report can incorporate not capture the proper operation of inquests. For that the current quarterly reports on military deaths and reason, I ask noble Lords to support this amendment. 1331 Armed Forces Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Armed Forces Bill 1332

Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: My Lords, I, had the responsibility to transfer inquests into too, support this amendment. Although I did not take military deaths to coroners in different jurisdictions to part in the debate last week, I listened very carefully to ensure that an inquest would be held by a coroner it. Arrangements had been made so that we did not trained in military matters. The position now, as I vote last week; I expect that we will today on this understand it, is that investigations into single fatalities amendment. will still be transferred to the coroner closest to the Following the Bill closely, I feel somewhat incredulous next of kin. Inconsistency in quality of service and in that the Government have not conceded in this area. quality of investigations for military families will therefore This proposal is very much diluted from where we remain. originally started. About three years ago I was privileged The amendment would not reverse or amend the to sit in on a consultation, conducted by the Ministry Government’s decision in respect of the office of the chief of Defence, with the bereaved families of members of coroner, but it would ensure that the issue of the the Armed Forces. It was somewhat humbling to sit operation of inquests—which, as has been said, remains there and listen to them talk very constructively about a matter of considerable concern—is one that the how things could be changed. It would not help them, Secretary of State has to report on each year in the since they had already been in that situation, but it Armed Forces covenant report, and thus is guaranteed would help bereaved families of service men and women to be the subject of continuing parliamentary and in the future and ease their lives with regard to delays public scrutiny, challenge and debate. in inquests. I gather that there is still a backlog of In his responses in Grand Committee and on Report, inquests. the Minister—I think that he will accept this—has I regard this as quite a simple amendment. It is accepted that the operation of inquests is a subject about our duty of care to our service men and women. that would be required to be covered by the Secretary The covenant covers active service personnel and veterans, of State in the Armed Forces covenant report at but what about service people who lose their lives and present but, his view is, not necessarily in future. The pay the ultimate price? What about the families they Minister argues that we currently have forces deployed have left behind? This is a very small, light amendment. overseas in military action—obviously, for example, in It does not call for huge expenditure. In my view, it Afghanistan—which, sadly, continues to result in fatalities meets what the whole ethos and spirit of the covenant and consequential inquests, but that, hopefully, this to our Armed Forces personnel is really all about. will not be a permanent situation and thus there is no A number of colleagues have thanked the Minister need, as there is with healthcare, housing and education, for the changes in the Bill, which will leave the House to have the operation of inquests included in the Bill very different from how it arrived. I give much of the as a required subject matter to be covered in the credit for that to the Minister, to the noble Lord, Lord annual report. Wallace, and to the civil servants who have worked I am sure that we all share his hope that the hard on this; I am not sure that these changes would situation regarding fatalities will be transformed, but have been achieved in another place. I ask why, on this under current policy the current operations in Afghanistan last small request, which is really about the duty of will be continuing for just over another three years, care, the Government will not concede. and inquests are not always resolved and finalised The amendment would not cost money and it certainly quickly, as has been pointed out. Further, the anticipated would not cost a lot of time. It would help the families position could well not materialise and we just do not and it would prevent us going back to the situation know when or where our Armed Forces might be that we were in three years ago. It looks likely that deployed overseas in the future. It is also the case that multiple deaths will still be dealt with in Wiltshire, but not all fatalities on active service occur overseas, as inquests on single deaths in the Armed Forces look has been said, and there are fatalities in this country, like going to a coroner who has probably never dealt including, in some years, some high-profile ones. It with one before, which cannot be right. I give this seems unrealistic to claim that, even though a highly amendment my wholehearted support, and hope that, sensitive issue such as the operation of inquests is one if not through the Government conceding, then through that the Secretary of State would almost certainly be a vote, we can get this into the Bill. expected to address for the next few years in an Armed Forces covenant report, such is our apparent certainty Lord Rosser: My Lords, the amendment would over what is going to happen in the highly uncertain provide that the annual Armed Forces covenant would and volatile arena of world affairs in the medium and cover the operation of inquests as well as the subjects longer term that we should decide now that it is not of healthcare, housing and education. necessary to include any reference to the operation of I do not wish to repeat the arguments already inquests, along with healthcare, housing, and education advanced in support of the amendment about why it is in the Bill. essential that there should be a specific reference in the We have an Armed Forces Bill every five years—it is Bill to the report covering the operation of inquests. the one piece of guaranteed legislation that emanates Suffice to say that the decision not to proceed with the from the Ministry of Defence, which is a department creation of the office of the chief coroner has strengthened that generates very little new legislation. As a result, the case. One of the roles of the chief coroner accepted legislative changes and amendments that are required on all sides of the House was the monitoring of tend to be left until the next Armed Forces Bill. It may investigations into service deaths and ensuring that well be that experience of the processes and procedures coroners are trained to conduct investigations into provided for in this Bill for the annual Armed Forces military deaths. The chief coroner would also have covenant report will lead to some amendments being 1333 Armed Forces Bill[LORDS] Armed Forces Bill 1334

[LORD ROSSER] can expect and establish a new bereaved organisations put forward by the then Government in the next Bill in committee for the important role of monitoring the just the same way as other parts of this, or previous impact of the charter. Armed Forces Bills, may necessitate revision or amendment. There is nothing wrong with that, and 3.45 pm there is likewise nothing wrong with the reference to Moreover, as the noble Baroness has acknowledged, the operation of inquests being included in this Bill as quarterly ministerial statements on military inquests a subject matter that will be addressed in the annual are already provided to Parliament and have been Armed Forces covenant report, when we know it is an since 2006. They are accompanied by detailed tables, important and sensitive issue, because in what many outlining the status of each operational death in Iraq might feel is the less than likely event of its ceasing to and Afghanistan. I am sure that information of this be an issue of importance and concern, it can be kind will continue to be presented to Parliament for as removed from the Bill by an amendment to a future long as there is public concern about how the inquest Armed Forces Bill. system works in relation to service personnel. If the noble Baroness does not feel able to accept I also refer the noble Baroness to the commitments the Minister’s reply, and is minded to seek the opinion that I made on Report. The Secretary of State will of the House, we will be supporting the amendment. have regard to a whole range of subjects included in the scope of the Armed Forces covenant, as set out in Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, during both Grand the guidance document published on 16 May. That Committee and Report stages, the noble Baroness includes the operation of the inquest system for bereaved gave a detailed and moving account of problems which service families. Again, I draw the attention of the had been encountered by bereaved service families in noble Baroness to the membership of the covenant the course of a coroner’s inquest. I have considered reference group. Both the Royal British Legion, which carefully what the noble Baroness said on Report; it the noble Baroness mentioned, and the War Widows seems to me that she has three main areas of concern, Association of Great Britain are there to ensure that and I shall try to deal with each in turn. the Secretary of State receives very clear advice. The first is the process and quality of inquests. In Noble Lords are well aware that the Ministry of the past decade, more than 500 inquests have been Defence does not and cannot have total control of the held into the deaths of service personnel who have lost process. Inquests and coroners are independent of their lives in military operations, including 12 service government. In so far as the Government provide a personnel who died in the UK of their injuries. Sixty-three legislative framework for inquests, that is a matter for of these inquests were held this year alone. Several the Ministry of Justice. Of course the Ministry of years ago, bereaved families could have waited Defence has an interest in ensuring that inquests are around two years for an inquest. Last year we completed effective and that they understand the military context. 131 inquests into operational death, for which the However, it would be wrong in principle for the Ministry average date was 15 months, and only 11 and a half of Defence to take on a general legislative responsibility months for those where there did not have to be a to report every year on the operation of the inquest service inquiry. For those who died last year the average process. wait is currently eight months, although this will increase, The second main issue concerns the information as a small number of inquests have yet to be held. about the health of members of the Armed Forces These improvements are a direct result of changes that can be obtained from inquests. It is true that we have made, including the setting up of a dedicated valuable epidemiological information can sometimes defence inquest unit. But we are not complacent. The be obtained from inquests into the deaths of those Ministry of Defence will continue to support coroners who die in service. However, the noble Baroness expresses to ensure that they are able to hear inquests into concern not only about those who die in service but service deaths promptly. This we hope will go some those who have left the services. The difficulties of way to ease the burden on families at such a difficult tracking what happens to all former members of the and distressing time. Armed Forces until their deaths are well known. Whether The defence inquest unit deals generally with around their deaths are the subject of an inquest will, moreover, 20 to 25 coroners, and as the noble Baroness said on depend on whether the death is violent or unnatural, Report, the Ministry of Defence has held training the cause of death is unknown, or the death occurs in events for them. I note, too, that the noble Baroness detention. Therefore, for those veterans whose deaths also raised concerns over the wide variation in the are from illness or plainly from the long-term effects standards and performance of coroners. At present of injury, there will be no inquest. The focus of the there are 99 coroners in 114 coronial districts. She will inquest is on the cause of death. For example, if a be interested to know that the Government propose to veteran is killed in a car accident, the effect on his take forward a package of measures aimed at improving health of military service or injury is very unlikely to the standard of service provided by coroners, including be looked at in the inquest. If he or she dies of, say, statutory provision set out in the Coroners and Justice cancer or heart disease, there will generally be no Act 2009, such as training regulations for coroners, inquest at all. As a result, tracking veterans and then and powers to make new rules, regulations and guidance. examining the inquest, where one is held, is unlikely to In the mean time, the Government will also publish a be a major source of information. new charter for the current coroner service in early I accept the noble Baroness’s point that inquests 2012. This will set out the minimum standards of can yield information about the long-term effects suffered service that those coming into contact with the system by those who have been in a theatre of war and been 1335 Armed Forces Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Armed Forces Bill 1336 injured. However, it seems that the point here is not 3.53 pm that there should be a legal obligation to cover inquests in every report, but that we should ensure that we use Division on Amendment 2 the information that comes from inquests in our analysis Contents 210; Not-Contents 186. of healthcare problems. In this respect, inquests should be a recognised source of information for those healthcare Amendment 2 agreed. issues that the reports address. However, only where there is an Armed Forces issue about them should Division No. 1 inquests be the focus of a covenant report themselves. The third point made by the noble Baroness on CONTENTS Report was that: Aberdare, L. Greenway, L. Adebowale, L. Grenfell, L. “The problem often is that the service personnel who are at highest risk are those who are emotionally isolated and who Adonis, L. Grey-Thompson, B. present to clinical services that do not understand the long-term Ahmed, L. Grocott, L. sequelae of what has happened previously”.—[Official Report, Allenby of Megiddo, V. Hannay of Chiswick, L. 4/10/11; col. 1045.] Alton of Liverpool, L. Hanworth, V. Anderson of Swansea, L. Harries of Pentregarth, L. This indeed is an important area of concern. However, Andrews, B. Harris of Haringey, L. if I may be blunt, I do not see how a duty to report on Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Harrison, L. inquests would help in this area at all. What the noble Bach, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Baroness refers to here is an issue of long-term healthcare Bakewell, B. Haskel, L. for veterans, which comes squarely under the existing Barnett, L. Haskins, L. requirement of the clause to address healthcare for Bassam of Brighton, L. Haworth, L. Beecham, L. Hayman, B. serving personnel, for veterans, and for Armed Forces Berkeley, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. families. Best, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. The noble Baroness mentioned deaths in training. Billingham, B. Henig, B. It is very important that deaths in training are carefully Bilston, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. monitored, and that, if there are indications of underlying Boothroyd, B. Hollick, L. Borrie, L. Hollins, B. failures, they are the subject of government action. A Boyce, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. report might be the right way to take that action; but it Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Howarth of Newport, L. could not be a report on the effects of service in the Brookman, L. Howe of Idlicote, B. operation of inquests—the inquest would be a source Browne of Belmont, L. Howells of St Davids, B. of information for the report, not the subject of the Browne of Ladyton, L. Hoyle, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. report. Butler-Sloss, B. Hughes of Woodside, L. I believe that, for the reasons I have set out, there is Cameron of Dillington, L. Irvine of Lairg, L. no need for the legislation to refer to the operation of Campbell of Surbiton, B. Janner of Braunstone, L. inquests. Moreover, if I have understood the noble Chorley, L. Janvrin, L. Clancarty, E. Jay of Ewelme, L. Baroness correctly, its aims in respect of veterans Clark of Windermere, L. Jay of Paddington, B. would not be realised. I therefore ask her to withdraw Clarke of Hampstead, L. Jones, L. her amendment. Clinton-Davis, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Cobbold, L. Jordan, L. Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: I am grateful to the Collins of Highbury, L. Kakkar, L. Minister for his very detailed response to the points I Condon, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. have made at previous stages of this Bill. I am well Corston, B. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. aware that we are at Third Reading, and will therefore Coussins, B. Kilclooney, L. Craig of Radley, L. King of Bow, B. be very brief. Crawley, B. Kinnock, L. I fully understand the package of measures that are Crisp, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. going to be introduced to improve the inquest system Davies of Coity, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. in general, and that the system will be evaluated and Davies of Oldham, L. Laming, L. monitored. I suggest that reporting on how that affects Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Lea of Crondall, L. B. Liddle, L. military deaths would be particularly useful, so those Deech, B. Lipsey, L. measures do not remove the need for my amendment. Donaghy, B. Lister of Burtersett, B. In terms of tracking, and the information that is Donoughue, L. Listowel, E. obtained from inquests, of course many deaths occur Drake, B. Lytton, E. Eames, L. McAvoy, L. in civilian life. However, to take an example such as a Elystan-Morgan, L. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, death in a car accident, it is precisely the question of Evans of Temple Guiting, L. L. whether there are more alcohol-fuelled deaths in road Evans of Watford, L. McDonagh, B. accidents among ex-service personnel, and if there is a Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. link to trauma that they have experienced previously, Faulkner of Worcester, L. McFall of Alcluith, L. Filkin, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. that makes such information highly important. Finlay of Llandaff, B. [Teller] MacKenzie of Culkein, L. I accept that some of the points will be covered by Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, the health requirement. However, they will not all be Gale, B. L. covered by it, and we will miss an important opportunity Gavron, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. if we do not incorporate inquests, particularly because Giddens, L. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Glasman, L. Mar, C. there has been so much concern over military inquests Golding, B. Masham of Ilton, B. in recent years. For that reason, I wish to test the Goudie, B. Massey of Darwen, B. opinion of the House. Gould of Potternewton, B. Maxton, L. 1337 Armed Forces Bill[LORDS] Armed Forces Bill 1338

Meacher, B. Smith of Basildon, B. Goodhart, L. Rawlings, B. Mitchell, L. Snape, L. Goodlad, L. Redesdale, L. Monks, L. Soley, L. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Rennard, L. Montgomery of Alamein, V. Stern, B. Greaves, L. Ribeiro, L. Moonie, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Hamwee, B. Risby, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Hanham, B. Ritchie of Brompton, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Roberts of Conwy, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Sugar, L. Henley, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Morris of Manchester, L. Swinfen, L. Heyhoe Flint, B. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Morris of Yardley, B. Hill of Oareford, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Tanlaw, L. Moser, L. Howe, E. Sassoon, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Murphy, B. Howe of Aberavon, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. Myners, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Howell of Guildford, L. Seccombe, B. Noon, L. Temple-Morris, L. Hurd of Westwell, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. O’Neill of Bengarve, B. Tenby, V. Hussain, L. Selsdon, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Thomas of Swynnerton, L. Hussein-Ece, B. Sharkey, L. Palmer, L. Thornton, B. James of Blackheath, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. Pannick, L. Tomlinson, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Sharples, B. Patel, L. Touhig, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. Triesman, L. Jolly, B. Shipley, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Tunnicliffe, L. Kirkham, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Pendry, L. Turner of Camden, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Skelmersdale, L. Pitkeathley, B. Wakefield, Bp. Kramer, B. Smith of Clifton, L. Prosser, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Lawson of Blaby, L. Spicer, L. Quin, B. Walpole, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Ramsbotham, L. [Teller] Walton of Detchant, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Stewartby, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. Warner, L. Lexden, L. Stoneham of Droxford, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Warnock, B. Lindsay, E. Storey, L. Richard, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Lingfield, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. Richardson of Calow, B. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Loomba, L. Strathclyde, L. Rogan, L. West of Spithead, L. Lothian, M. Taverne, L. Rooker, L. Wheeler, B. Lucas, L. Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Rosser, L. Whitaker, B. Lyell, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Rowlands, L. Whitty, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Wilkins, B. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Thomas of Walliswood, B. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Williams of Elvel, L. Maddock, B. Thomas of Winchester, B. Sawyer, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Mancroft, L. Tonge, B. Sheldon, L. Wills, L. Maples, L. Tope, L. Sherlock, B. Wood of Anfield, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Tordoff, L. Simon, V. Worthington, B. L. Trefgarne, L. Slim, V. Young of Hornsey, B. Marland, L. Trimble, L. Marlesford, L. True, L. Mawhinney, L. Trumpington, B. NOT CONTENTS Mayhew of Twysden, L. Tugendhat, L. Addington, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. Miller of Hendon, B. Tyler, L. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Cormack, L. Montrose, D. Tyler of Enfield, B. Alderdice, L. Craigavon, V. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Ullswater, V. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Crickhowell, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Vallance of Tummel, L. Ashcroft, L. De Mauley, L. Moynihan, L. Verma, B. Ashton of Hyde, L. Deben, L. Newby, L. Waddington, L. Astor of Hever, L. Dholakia, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Wallace of Saltaire, L. Attlee, E. Dixon-Smith, L. B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Avebury, L. Dobbs, L. Noakes, B. Walmsley, B. Baker of Dorking, L. Doocey, B. Northover, B. Warsi, B. Ballyedmond, L. Eaton, B. O’Cathain, B. Wasserman, L. Barker, B. Eccles, V. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Wei, L. Benjamin, B. Eccles of Moulton, B. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Wheatcroft, B. Berridge, B. Eden of Winton, L. Parminter, B. Wilcox, B. Black of Brentwood, L. Edmiston, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Williams of Crosby, B. Blencathra, L. Elton, L. Popat, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Empey, L. Randerson, B. Younger of Leckie, V. B. Erroll, E. Boswell of Aynho, L. Falkner of Margravine, B. 4.05 pm Bowness, L. Faulks, L. Bradshaw, L. Fearn, L. Bridgeman, V. Fellowes, L. Amendments 3 and 4 not moved. Brinton, B. Fookes, B. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Fowler, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Framlingham, L. Amendments 5 to 7 L. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Freeman, L. Moved by Lord Astor of Hever Browning, B. Freud, L. Byford, B. Garden of Frognal, B. 5: Clause 2, page 2, line 22, at end insert— Campbell of Alloway, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. “(3A) For the purposes of preparing an armed forces covenant Cathcart, E. Gardner of Parkes, B. report, the Secretary of State must obtain the views of any Chalker of Wallasey, B. Garel-Jones, L. relevant government department, and seek the views of any Chidgey, L. German, L. relevant devolved administration, in relation to the effects to be Clement-Jones, L. Gold, L. covered by the report. 1339 Armed Forces Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Armed Forces Bill 1340

(3B) An armed forces covenant report must— Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, I beg to move (a) set out in full or summarise the views of a relevant Amendment 8 in my name and that of the noble government department or relevant devolved administration Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Touhig. I am obtained pursuant to subsection (3A); and grateful for their support. As I made clear in my (b) where the views of a relevant devolved administration remarks at Report and Committee stages, the current have been sought but not obtained, state that fact. arrangements are not satisfactory. This is not so much (3C) The Secretary of State may not include in an armed a criticism of individuals but of a process that is no forces covenant report a summary under subsection (3B)(a) unless longer—to use that popular phrase—fit for purpose. the relevant government department or relevant devolved administration has approved the summary.” I propose to respond to the points made by the 6: Clause 2, page 2, line 40, leave out subsections (7) to (9) Minister when he resisted this amendment in his letter 7: Clause 2, page 3, line 26, at end insert— of 23 September and at Report stage. In that letter to me and to other noble Lords who have spoken on this “343B Interpretation of Part topic, the Minister said that when exceptions to the (1) In section 343A “service people” means— long-standing rule of no double medalling and the (a) members of the regular forces and the reserve forces; five-year moratorium are allowed, the results are then (b) members of British overseas territory forces who are seen to be anomalous and unfair. subject to service law; (c) former members of any of Her Majesty’s forces who are This is surely the wrong conclusion. The problem ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom; and arises because the rules are out of date, and are no (d) relevant family members. longer suitable for dealing with the donor countries and international organisations of today and the variety (2) In section 343A “relevant government department”, in relation to an effect to be covered by an armed forces covenant of involvements of many individual recipients. I am report, means a department of the Government of the United glad the Minister has put a review in hand. However, it Kingdom (apart from the Ministry of Defence) which the Secretary must address the matter of what guidance there should of State considers has functions relevant to that effect. be on accepting—or refusing to accept—foreign awards. (3) In section 343A “relevant devolved administration”, in The no double medal and the five-year moratorium relation to an effect to be covered by an armed forces covenant have been breached at least since the time of the report, means whichever of the following the Secretary of State Korean War in the early 1950s and, in one way or considers to have functions relevant to that effect— another, in almost every year since. It is simply not (a) the Scottish Executive; tenable to claim that they are the right benchmark. I (b) the Northern Ireland departments; suspect that the mindset—or default position—is to (c) the Welsh Assembly Government. try to deter an offer first, rather than have to deal with (4) In this Part— the much trickier problem of refusing or prevaricating “British overseas territory force” means any of Her Majesty’s over one once made. That is why these rules are still forces that is raised under the law of a British overseas territory; prayed in aid. However, they have lost their validity “membership or former membership” of a force, in relation to with the passage of time. a person, includes any service in that force that that person is undertaking, undertook or may be expected to be called on to Secondly, in his reply to my earlier amendment, the undertake; Minister claimed that the HD committee was non- “relevant family members” means such descriptions of persons political, being made up of senior Crown servants, connected with service members, or with persons who were and was the source of advice to the Queen on the service members, as the Secretary of State considers should be acceptance and wearing of foreign medals. However covered by a report or part of a report; it defies belief that an award proposed by a foreign “service member” means a person who falls within any of head of state or Government to one or more British paragraphs (a) to (c) of subsection (1). subjects would not be considered by Ministers at some (5) Any reference in this Part to membership or former membership stage. Surely the interplay of diplomatic and cultural, of the armed forces is to be read, in relation to a person who is— economic and security interests and so on between a (a) a service member, or donor and this country must be taken into account on (b) a relevant family member by reason of connection with how best to respond to a generous gesture by a putative a person who is or was a service member, donor. as a reference to the service member’s membership or former membership of a force mentioned in subsection (1).” Lacking the speed of modern communication, those considerations may not have been uppermost 70 years ago, but surely they cannot be ignored today. Ministers Amendments 5 to 7 agreed. must have some part to play, particularly if a refusal is mooted. Moreover, as is clear from my remarks at Report about the Minister’s letter of 23 September, Amendment 8 and in the Written Statements that I quoted about the Moved by Lord Craig of Radley rules and government policy, the Queen, as is normal, 8: After Clause 23, insert the following new Clause— will on this topic act on the advice of Ministers. The “Commonwealth medals Minister says so himself. I assume that this advice is couched to deal with agreements to restricted or After section 339 of AFA 2006 insert— unrestricted acceptance. I doubt that any submission “339A Commonwealth medals put to Her Majesty seeks formal approval to refuse an Medals awarded by Commonwealth governments, including award. the Pingat Jasa Malaysia Medal, to present or former members of Her Majesty’s armed forces and other The Minister, in answering my points at Report, Crown servants may be worn without restriction.”” said that the effect of my then amendment would be to 1341 Armed Forces Bill[LORDS] Armed Forces Bill 1342

[LORD CRAIG OF RADLEY] the PJM by British subjects, but let me give him just end the broadly consistent approach across government. one further example of what is happening and is The words “other Crown servants” in the current wrong, sent to me by another recipient of the PJM, amendment deal with that objection. one of many who have contacted me to express their The Minister’s next point was that a problem would outrage at the way that they have been treated by our be created by establishing a separate principle that system. applied to medals offered by the Governments of This individual, an RAF veteran of Malaya and Commonwealth nations, as opposed to those offered North Borneo, describes his experience on ANZAC by other allies. He said that it would not be easy to Day. He says that when marching with Malaysian and justify to non-Commonwealth allies or members of North Borneo veterans of the Australian Defence our Armed Forces why we would generally decline the Force, he is unable to wear his PJM medal, although offer of a medal from them, while readily accepting a all the ADF veterans have royal approval to do so. It medal offered by a Commonwealth nation. Surely, appears, he says, that the Queen of Australia rejoices that misunderstands this amendment, and I note too in them wearing the PJM, but the Queen of the United the mindset or default opinion which is expressed in Kingdom does not. As he and others have pointed the words “would generally decline the offer”. out, that appears to be an insult to the people of On the one hand, my amendment would facilitate, Malaysia. He personally concludes, regretfully, that he without recourse to any archaic HD committee rules, can but agree. the acceptance and wearing of Commonwealth medals. It is time that that ridiculous anomaly was righted That would be set down in statute. Until the rules are forthwith. Will the Minister accept my amendment? changed, as I believe that they should be, the He does not automatically have to resist now that the treatment of other friendly nations or international Bill is to return to another place. The amendment organisations would be, as now, unchanged, apart would give great pleasure to numerous veterans—a from explaining to them that the new Commonwealth gesture to their loyalty and valour worthy of the military arrangement was approved by Parliament and had covenant—and smooth the HD committee’s work with received Royal Assent. I do not see that causing any Commonwealth countries pleased to make a national greater diplomatic difficulty than already exists, as the award to UK Crown servants. Agreement now would Minister asserted, and almost certainly a good deal allow holders to wear their PJM on Remembrance less, even without any changes to the HD committee Sunday this year, and wear it with pride. rules. Those rules, or the way in which they are applied I urge the Minister to accept the strength of those by officials, seem designed to deter as far as possible arguments and those of other noble Lords and to let any foreign offer. That approach must surely merit the revised Bill complete its passage through both thorough re-examination. Houses with the amendment to gain Royal Assent. I As I mentioned at Report, there is renewed interest beg to move. in Government to strengthen the Commonwealth heritage—in short, to put the C back in FCO. It would Lord Ramsbotham: I put my name to the amendment, be timely to adopt this amendment so that the Prime as I did in Committee and at Report. I declare an Minister, at the forthcoming CHOGM in Perth at the interest as a holder of the Pingat Jasa Malaysia. I shall end of this month, could mention it then as a gesture not repeat all the arguments made so well by my noble of the Government’s determination to strengthen their and gallant friend, which have been put forward on Commonwealth ties. numerous occasions. I should just like to mention I now turn to the vexed question of a particular three points. Commonwealth medal, the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal, First, as my noble and gallant friend said, the which is mentioned in the amendment. UK subjects existing rules are utterly discredited. It was mentioned have Her Majesty’s approval to accept that medal but in the previous amendment that the coroners’ regulations not to wear it. The Minister, who has one, says that he are 149 years old; some of the regulations for these keeps it hidden in his top drawer. However, I welcome medals go back to the Crimean War. the statement at Report saying that the Minister would, Secondly, it is all very well saying that it is a “write to ministerial colleagues in the FCO emphasising the committee of civil servants who will draw this up, strength of feeling that continues to exist, both in this House and but it is actually Ministers who should give advice. I elsewhere, specifically about the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal … I am concerned that Ministers do not appear to have will propose that they look again at whether they can advise the given the ruling on this issue that they might have HD committee to recommend to Her Majesty that those who done. were awarded the medal should also be permitted to wear it”.— [Official Report, 4/10/11; col. 1074.] I mention that in coming to my third point, because we are all abundantly clear—it has been made clear by Can the Minister confirm that he has written? Has he the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and by the any indication when he will receive a response? Indeed, Minister in this House—that the Foreign Office is does this not also confirm the involvement of Ministers trying to put back the C into the FCO. There is and that this is a topic not solely left to the HD an emphasis on the Commonwealth. This is a Committee, as has been claimed? Commonwealth medal. To my mind, it is discourteous not to accept something from the Commonwealth 4.15 pm when the people who were awarded it went out honouring I do not wish to detain the House by going over in a treaty obligation to help a fellow Commonwealth full all the arguments brought to the Minister’s member in trouble. This really ought to be put right as attention that favour removing the restriction on wearing soon as possible. 1343 Armed Forces Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Armed Forces Bill 1344

Lord Touhig: My Lords, I support the amendment that can arise between us and Commonwealth countries, moved by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig—in I feel at least entitled to express the view that I cannot particular, his remarks about the Pingat Jasa Malaysia see a single good reason for allowing somebody to medal. This has been a running sore for far too long, accept a medal and not be able to wear it. I can see and it is about time that we sought to heal it. I have circumstances in which you might refuse to allow been a long-time critic of the Committee on Honours, them to accept a medal for whatever reason, but I Decorations and Medals, the so-called HD committee, cannot see how you can say, “You can have this medal which advises Her Majesty the Queen on these matters. but you must never put it on”. I think this needs As has been said, the committee advised Her Majesty looking at. that the veterans of the Malaysian campaign should accept the medal but must not wear it. Over the years, Lord Cormack: My Lords, I am afraid I have disobeyed like others, I have tabled parliamentary Questions. my late great friend Lord Weatherill who said, “If you When I sat in the other place, I obtained an adjournment are at all in doubt do not listen to the debate”. I have debate and tabled EDMs, all to no avail: the rule still listened to the debate and I entirely agree with my stands. noble friend Lord Newton. It really is nonsense. I am If any of us were to walk down any high street in actually standing before your Lordships wearing a Britain today and stop a complete stranger and say, decoration—Commander of the Order of the Lion of “Do you know that this country has allowed veterans Finland. When I received it for services which do not who fought in the jungles of Malaysia to accept a begin to compare with the bravery that the people we medal from the King of Malaysia but they must not are talking of displayed in the Malaysian jungles, I wear it?”, they would think you were “twp”—a Welsh received a letter from the Queen’s private secretary word meaning daft in the head. British soldiers gave giving me unrestricted permission to wear it whenever their lives in this campaign. We are told that this I wished to. It seems a total nonsense to give permission cannot be changed because of the five-year rule and to these brave people to accept this medal and then to the double medalling rule. We now discover that these say, “But you cannot wear it”. There is no logic in that are not rules at all but merely conventions which the argument whatever and I hope that my noble friend HD committee operates. We are here this afternoon in who will be replying to this debate—for whom I, too, the glorious surroundings of this magnificent Chamber have very real regard and respect—if he cannot give of the House of Lords and yet only halfway round the the logical answer will say that we ought to let Parliament world in Afghanistan somebody’s husband, son or make up its mind to allow these brave veterans, most father is risking his life for us as a country in defending of whom are very old people now, to enjoy at least one British interests. What sort of message do we send to Remembrance Day where they can wear this decoration these brave young men when we say that someone who of which they are rightly proud. fought for our country over 50 years ago should be treated so dishonourably? Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: My Lords, I rise as someone with no military medals, though my late I recognise that the HD committee has a difficult father had some. I find it incomprehensible that we are task. I have done my best to understand how it reached not proud that service people fighting for this country its decision. I have attempted through freedom of were awarded medals by one of our Commonwealth information requests to discover how this has happened, nations. If we are proud that they should be awarded but I have been totally thwarted by the Cabinet Office. such medals, why should they not be allowed to wear However, we have a chance to do something about this them? It seems incomprehensible that they are not. We today. This is the Parliament of the United Kingdom. talk in your Lordships’ House about the cost of this It is a privilege to sit here, whether in the elected and the cost of that—I was told that the cost of House down the corridor or in this House. People in national defence medals would be higher than I this country still expect Parliament to do something imagined—but the cost of doing this is nothing other about righting a wrong or ending an injustice. I believe than perhaps a dent in some civil servant’s pride. this should be a free vote in both Houses. If your There is no reason why this House should not encourage Lordships’ House was to carry this amendment today, the Government to allow people to wear medals such I have no doubt that on a free vote down the corridor as the PJM medal. it would be passed overwhelmingly by Members there. If ever there was a case for parliamentarians to be Having been awarded a medal from a Commonwealth allowed to use their conscience, this is one. This is country, the recipient does not have to wear it. There is about how we respect and treat those who have served no saying that if you have received a medal from a our country. The Minister is a good and decent man Commonwealth country of which you might, for current and well thought of all around the Chamber. We reasons, disapprove you have to wear it, but the idea know he has worked hard to try and resolve this that you cannot wear it seems anathema. matter and we certainly wish him well. But this is a The Bill has to go to the other place. It is not on this case when the Executive should stand aside and one amendment that it may ping-pong. Therefore, Parliament, unfettered by the Executive, should speak contrary to my normal loyalties to the coalition, I will for the people of Britain. vote with the noble, valiant Lords in favour of the amendment. Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, I declare an interest in that I chair one of the honours committees Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, I listened to the debate within the mainline honours system, although happily on medals in Grand Committee. I said at the end of it it has nothing to do with this. However, because of my that our position was neutral but that I had found familiarity with that system and some of the problems many of the arguments very persuasive. I have read 1345 Armed Forces Bill[LORDS] Armed Forces Bill 1346

[LORD TUNNICLIFFE] The foundations of this position are quite simple. the letter from the Minister of 23 September and First, when British citizens, whether civilian or military, welcome it as far as it goes. It is good that there is to be carry out their duties to the sovereign and their country, a review, and I am pleased that it will be relatively it is for the sovereign to decide on the award of rapid. I apologise for not being present on Report, but honours for that service. I have carefully read the debate in Hansard.Asa Secondly, the advice given to the sovereign about consequence, I assume that, arising out of those debates the grant of honours should be consistent across and that letter, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig government—expert and, so far as is possible, of Radley, and his colleagues have produced what is dispassionate. Decisions on whether to reward service now a very narrow amendment about a particular should not be made in the glare of public debate or anomaly. potential party political argument about the wider We have taken enough time on this; I shall not political context in which that service was given. repeat the arguments except to say that I unknowingly Lastly, there should be consistency in our response applied the test described by the noble Lord, Lord to the wishes of all states, foreign or Commonwealth. Touhig, to a peculiar group of people called the opposition In particular, our response to all our allies and friends Whips. I tried to explain to them that we were going to should be consistent. I do not pretend that absolute debate how the King of Malaysia had presented a consistency has been, or can always be, maintained. medal to British soldiers, how the Queen through Her Sometimes exceptions are, and no doubt will be, made. Majesty’s Government had agreed that they could But it is nearly always when exceptions are made that accept it, and how they were not then allowed to wear unfairness or anomalies are likely to occur. it. It took me 10 minutes to convince them that I was The amendment would have two direct effects. First, being serious, especially, as I recollect from Committee, it would lay down for the future a new rule about there is one day or one week when the soldiers are medals—that those awarded a Commonwealth medal allowed to wear the medal. shall be entitled in all circumstances to wear it. Secondly, We will support Amendment 8. I take this opportunity it would apply this rule to Commonwealth medals to say how flexible and how positive the Minister, his awarded in the past. These include, as the amendment fellow Ministers and their team have been throughout specifies, the PJM medal. the Bill. I earnestly invite him to maintain that theme In doing so, the amendment would also have a and accept the amendment. Unfortunately, if he is number of indirect effects. By overturning past decisions unable to do so and there is a Division on it, we will that have been made on Commonwealth medals, it join the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, would establish the precedent that Parliament may and his colleagues in the Lobby. overturn—and after any length of time—any decision of the sovereign as the fount of honour. Her decision Lord Morgan: My Lords, does my noble friend not is needed on the full details of what is proposed, as to think that we should also point to how these actions both the acceptance and the wearing of medals. The will be seen in Malaysia, which is a very important amendment would overturn, specifically, past decisions country that is deeply attached to ours? We have very on Commonwealth cases. I need hardly say that it is strong links in higher education and business. It seems Her Majesty who is Head of the Commonwealth, not to me needlessly insulting of the people of Malaysia to Parliament. do this. It would establish a further precedent that Parliament is able to lay down and change the rules which are to Lord Tunnicliffe: I concur with that comment. be applied to decisions on the acceptance of honours from foreign and Commonwealth states. It would 4.30 pm assert that Parliament can do so in a way which alters Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, the debates that we the fundamentals that I have described of the existing have already had on the subject of medals can have arrangements, such as the need for a basically consistent left no doubt about how important this matter is, and approach to awards by all friendly and allied states. I am very grateful for the opportunity to address it Equally profound in its implications is the argument again today. that must underlie this amendment—that decisions on The debate has had a number of strands: the process the award of honours, and whether to change decisions and rules for deciding on the acceptance and wearing previously made, are better made in the emotive and of awards given by foreign and Commonwealth nations; often party political atmosphere of parliamentary the position within this process of Her Majesty as the consideration, than with the detached and largely fount of honour and the person to whom loyalty is non-party political approach envisaged in the owed; and the desire—shared, I believe, by all noble arrangements set up by King George VI. I believe that Lords—to recognise and support the Commonwealth. it would be wrong in principle for this House to lead The amendment put down by the noble and gallant the way towards such a new approach to the award of Lord, Lord Craig, relates to all these strands. honours. As to the particular new rule that the amendment The position of the Government on the fundamentals would put in place, I simply point out that it would of how the system should work remains the same as create a different principle for the wearing of medals that of the last Government, when in 2007 the HD awarded by Commonwealth nations from that which committee considered for a second time the Pingat applies to those awarded by other allies. Jasa Malaysia medal. It is the same position as has The operations in which our Armed Forces are been held by every previous Government since King involved are increasingly international, with British George VI established the HD committee. units regularly working alongside UN, NATO or EU 1347 Armed Forces Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Armed Forces Bill 1348 partners. It would not be easy to justify to non- acceptable, bearing in mind the pressures that he will Commonwealth allies, or to those individuals whom exert for a review and the fact that he will come back they wish to reward, why the United Kingdom had to us before the end of the year. decided to treat their awards on a fundamentally different basis from those offered by a Commonwealth Lord Craig of Radley: My Lords, I raised this nation. particular question in my earlier comments. The Minister has said: That does not mean that I do not attach a special value to our membership of the Commonwealth and “I propose to write to ministerial colleagues in the FCO emphasising the strength of feeling that continues to exist, both in to our connections with its members. They are of the this House and elsewhere, specifically about the Pingat Jasa greatest importance, historically, culturally and Malaysia medal … I will propose that they look again at whether constitutionally. But I do not believe that the creation they can advise the HD committee to recommend to Her Majesty of the distinction which this amendment would make that those who were awarded the medal should also be permitted between our Commonwealth and other friends is the to wear it”.—[Official Report, 4/10/11; col. 1074.] way to reflect our respect for the Commonwealth. Has the noble Lord written, and when does he expect Neither does it mean that I do not understand the a reply? force of the points that have been made in these Lord Astor of Hever: I have not as yet written but I debates about particular cases, and about the way that will do so very soon, and I would anticipate a pretty the process works, or is perceived to work. I have quick response to my letter. therefore instructed Ministry of Defence officials to consider the process by which advice about the institution Lord Craig of Radley: I thank the noble Lord for of medals and the acceptance of foreign awards in that assurance. There is a fundamental disconnect, I respect of military service is put together, considered feel, between the approach that I and my colleagues and submitted to Her Majesty. are taking and the one that the Minister has taken. It As I explained on Report, this work will also consider is all to do, fundamentally, with whether the HD the way that decisions are promulgated. My officials committee rules to which we keep referring are still fit will ensure that they have the benefit of the views of for purpose. My contention is that they not fit for the current chiefs of staff and they will discuss the purpose. On that basis, I propose to ask for the view of issue with HD committee members. They will then the House. consider whether any advice should be given to Her Majesty about the need to review the process and to 4.41 pm make changes. Once my officials have reported back to me, I shall report the outcome to Parliament through Division on Amendment 8 a Written Ministerial Statement. I aim to do so before Contents 208; Not-Contents 194. the end of the year. I have been particularly struck with the force of the Amendment 8 agreed. points made about the decision on the PJM medal. We Division No. 2 have heard about how it is seen in Malaysia and about the continued importance and awareness of the issue CONTENTS not only in Malaysia and among those working for or Adebowale, L. Collins of Highbury, L. representing the United Kingdom in Malaysia but Adonis, L. Condon, L. among all those who were awarded the PJM medal. I Ahmed, L. Corston, B. shall put in hand, through my officials, representations Allenby of Megiddo, V. Coussins, B. to members of the HD committee about these issues, Alton of Liverpool, L. Craig of Radley, L. [Teller] Anderson of Swansea, L. Craigavon, V. with a request that their advice to Her Majesty is to Andrews, B. Crawley, B. consider again whether those who have been awarded Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Davies of Oldham, L. the medal should be permitted to wear it. Again I shall Bach, L. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, report the outcome to Parliament through a Written Barnett, L. B. Ministerial Statement, and I aim to do so before the Bassam of Brighton, L. Donaghy, B. end of the year. However, for the reasons that I have Beecham, L. Donoughue, L. Berkeley, L. Drake, B. explained, I do not believe that it would be right, in Bilston, L. Eames, L. order to improve the system, for Parliament to overturn Boothroyd, B. Eatwell, L. Her Majesty’s decisions or to establish a precedent for Borrie, L. Elystan-Morgan, L. laying new rules. Such an approach would not in my Boyce, L. Erroll, E. view support the essential merits and aims of the Boyd of Duncansby, L. Evans of Temple Guiting, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Evans of Watford, L. existing system, or support Her Majesty in carrying Brookman, L. Falkland, V. out her role as the fount of honour. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. For those reasons, I cannot support the noble and Browne of Belmont, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. gallant Lord’s proposed amendment, and I would Browne of Ladyton, L. Fellowes, L. urge noble Lords to reflect extremely carefully before Butler-Sloss, B. Filkin, L. Cameron of Dillington, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. starting down the road it represents. Campbell-Savours, L. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Carey of Clifton, L. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, before my Clancarty, E. Gale, B. Clark of Windermere, L. Gavron, L. noble friend sits down, I hope he will be pleased if I Clarke of Hampstead, L. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. simply say that I, at any rate, in what I acknowledge is Clinton-Davis, L. Glasman, L. an extremely difficult area, found his reply entirely Cobbold, L. Golding, B. 1349 Armed Forces Bill[LORDS] Armed Forces Bill 1350

Goudie, B. Morgan of Huyton, B. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Howe of Aberavon, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. Alderdice, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Greenway, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Hurd of Westwell, L. Grenfell, L. Morris of Manchester, L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Hussain, L. Grey-Thompson, B. Morris of Yardley, B. Hamdon, L. Hussein-Ece, B. Grocott, L. Noon, L. Ashton of Hyde, L. James of Blackheath, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. O’Neill of Bengarve, B. Astor of Hever, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Hanworth, V. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Attlee, E. [Teller] Jenkin of Roding, L. Harries of Pentregarth, L. Palmer, L. Avebury, L. Jolly, B. Harris of Haringey, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Baker of Dorking, L. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Harrison, L. Pannick, L. Ballyedmond, L. Kilclooney, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Patel, L. Barker, B. Kirkham, L. Haskel, L. Benjamin, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Haskins, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Berridge, B. Kramer, B. Haworth, L. Best, L. Lawson of Blaby, L. Hayman, B. Pitkeathley, B. Prosser, B. Black of Brentwood, L. Leach of Fairford, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Blencathra, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Quin, B. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Lexden, L. Henig, B. Ramsbotham, L. [Teller] B. Lindsay, E. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Rea, L. Boswell of Aynho, L. Lingfield, L. Hollick, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. Bottomley of Nettlestone, Loomba, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Rendell of Babergh, B. B. Lucas, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Richard, L. Bowness, L. Luke, L. Howe of Idlicote, B. Richardson of Calow, B. Bradshaw, L. Lyell, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Rogan, L. Bridgeman, V. McColl of Dulwich, L. Howie of Troon, L. Rogers of Riverside, L. Brinton, B. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Hoyle, L. Rooker, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, McNally, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. Rosser, L. L. Maddock, B. Hughes of Woodside, L. Rowlands, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Magan of Castletown, L. Irvine of Lairg, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Browning, B. Mancroft, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Burnett, L. Maples, L. Jay of Ewelme, L. Sawyer, L. Buscombe, B. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Jay of Paddington, B. Sheldon, L. Byford, B. L. Jones, L. Sherlock, B. Campbell of Alloway, L. Marland, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Simon, V. Campbell of Surbiton, B. Marlesford, L. Jordan, L. Slim, V. Cathcart, E. Mawhinney, L. Kakkar, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Mayhew of Twysden, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Chidgey, L. Miller of Hendon, B. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Snape, L. Clement-Jones, L. Montgomery of Alamein, V. Kestenbaum, L. Soley, L. Colwyn, L. Montrose, D. King of Bow, B. Stern, B. Cope of Berkeley, L. Moonie, L. Kinnock, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Crickhowell, L. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Stoddart of Swindon, L. De Mauley, L. Morris of Bolton, B. Knight of Weymouth, L. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Deben, L. Moynihan, L. Laird, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Dholakia, L. Murphy, B. Laming, L. Temple-Morris, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Newby, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Tenby, V. Dobbs, L. Newton of Braintree, L. Leitch, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Doocey, B. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Liddle, L. Thornton, B. Eaton, B. B. Lipsey, L. Touhig, L. Eccles, V. Noakes, B. Lister of Burtersett, B. Triesman, L. Eccles of Moulton, B. Northover, B. Listowel, E. Tunnicliffe, L. Eden of Winton, L. O’Cathain, B. Low of Dalston, L. Turner of Camden, B. Edmiston, L. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Lytton, E. Wall of New Barnet, B. Falkner of Margravine, B. Parminter, B. McAvoy, L. Walpole, L. Faulks, L. Perry of Southwark, B. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Walton of Detchant, L. Fearn, L. Phillips of Sudbury, L. L. Warner, L. Fookes, B. Popat, L. McDonagh, B. Warnock, B. Fowler, L. Randerson, B. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Framlingham, L. Rawlings, B. McFall of Alcluith, L. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Reay, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. West of Spithead, L. Freeman, L. Rees of Ludlow, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Wheeler, B. Freud, L. Rennard, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Whitaker, B. Garden of Frognal, B. Ribeiro, L. L. Whitty, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Risby, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Wigley, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Ritchie of Brompton, B. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Wilkins, B. Garel-Jones, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Mar, C. Williams of Elvel, L. German, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Martin of Springburn, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Goodhart, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Wills, L. Goodlad, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Massey of Darwen, B. Winston, L. Goschen, V. Scott of Needham Market, Maxton, L. Wood of Anfield, L. Greaves, L. B. Mitchell, L. Worthington, B. Hamwee, B. Seccombe, B. Monks, L. Young of Hornsey, B. Hanham, B. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Morgan, L. Young of Old Scone, B. Harris of Richmond, B. Selsdon, L. Henley, L. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. NOT CONTENTS Heyhoe Flint, B. Sharkey, L. Hill of Oareford, L. Sharp of Guildford, B. Aberdare, L. Addington, L. Hooper, B. Sharples, B. 1351 Armed Forces Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1352

Shaw of Northstead, L. Tordoff, L. Localism Bill Sheikh, L. Trefgarne, L. Shipley, L. Trimble, L. Report (5th Day) Shutt of Greetland, L. True, L. 4.56 pm Skelmersdale, L. Trumpington, B. Smith of Clifton, L. Tugendhat, L. Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, Tyler, L. Clause 22 : Pay policy statements L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Spicer, L. Ullswater, V. Amendment 190 Stedman-Scott, B. Vallance of Tummel, L. Stewartby, L. Verma, B. Tabled by Lord Beecham Stoneham of Droxford, L. Waddington, L. 190: Clause 22, page 26, line 13, at end insert— Storey, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. “( ) The statement may include the approach that the relevant Stowell of Beeston, B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. authority has adopted for selecting information on pay policy Strathclyde, L. Walmsley, B. from a provider, including any potential provider, of goods and Taverne, L. Warsi, B. services.” Taylor of Goss Moor, L. Wasserman, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Wei, L. Lord Beecham: My Lords, I do not intend to move Thomas of Walliswood, B. Wheatcroft, B. Thomas of Winchester, B. Wilcox, B. the amendment but I urge the Government, in considering Tonge, B. Williams of Crosby, B. issues of procurement and the like, to bear in mind the Tope, L. Younger of Leckie, V. need to ensure that reasonable conditions, in terms of pay and other conditions of service, are applicable not 4.53 pm only to those employed within the public sector but to those with whom it contracts, and to seek to encourage the concept of the living wage, which has been adopted Motion in London by successive mayors and which other local Moved by Lord Astor of Hever authorities are seeking to promote. I do not wish to That the Bill do now pass. detain the House further so the amendment is not moved. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I gather that it is Amendment 190 not moved. traditional at this point for the Minister guiding the Bill to say a few words of thanks. More than 30 noble Clause 27 : Interpretation Lords and noble and gallant Lords spoke during the debate at Second Reading in July. That is testament to Amendment 191 not moved. the deep and abiding interest in the Armed Forces that exists in this House. In our exchanges since then, we Amendment 191A have at times taken different views on some issues. Moved by Baroness Hanham However, I have been impressed, as I always am, by 191A: After Clause 27, insert the following new Clause— the courtesy and helpfulness that has been shown to “CHAPTER 6A me by noble Lords on all sides of the House. It is Commission for Local Administration in England difficult to single out individuals, but I should like to Arrangements for provision of services and discharge of functions pay tribute to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, (1) After section 33ZA of the Local Government Act 1974 for his hard work on the Bill and for his tenacity in insert— pursuing issues that he thought were wrong. I also pay “33ZB Arrangements for provision of administrative and tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, who is not other services in her place now. I should also like to thank the many (1) Arrangements involving the Commission may be entered people behind the scenes, in the House and elsewhere, into by persons within subsection (4) for the provision of who have supported us during the Bill’s passage. Finally, administrative, professional or technical services by any one or more of the parties for any one or more of the parties, whether for I should like to pay tribute to the Armed Forces. This consideration or otherwise. Bill is for them. We owe them our best efforts at all (2) For the purposes of subsection (1), arrangements for the times, and I believe that we have a Bill that meets the provision of services involve the Commission if the Commission high standard that they set for us. is one of the parties to the arrangements and at least one of the following conditions is met— Lord Rosser: My Lords, I will be brief, but I would (a) the Commission is the party, or one of the parties, by like to thank the Minister and his team for all the whom the services are to be provided; considerable help that they have given on this Bill. The (b) the Commission is the party, or one of the parties, to Minister has been prepared to listen with an open whom the services are to be provided. mind to the points made during our discussions. Where (3) The arrangements that may be entered into under subsection he has felt able to make changes in the Bill to address (1) include arrangements for— some of the concerns that have been raised, he has (a) the Commission, or done so. We wish to express our thanks to the Minister (b) the Commission jointly with any one or more of the for all the work that he has done on the Bill and for his parties, major contribution to the fact that our debates have to have the function of discharging, on behalf of a party, been constructive and conducted without rancour, any function of that party which is of an administrative, and conducted with the interests of our Armed Forces professional or technical nature. in our minds. (4) The persons within this subsection are— (a) the Commission, Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments. (b) the Parliamentary Commissioner, 1353 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1354

[BARONESS HANHAM] to properties in that street or area, the owners of the (c) the Health Service Commissioner for England, and property carry out such reasonable repairs and maintenance as are necessary to keep the property up to the average (d) the person administering a scheme approved under Schedule 2 standard of repair of the other properties in the street or to the Housing Act 1996 (scheme for enabling complaints area.” to be investigated by a housing ombudsman).” (2) In paragraph 13 of Schedule 4 to the Local Government Act 1974 (delegation by Local Commissioners) after sub-paragraph Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I am so (2) insert— pleased that we have actually reached one of my “(3) Any function of the Commission may be discharged on amendments. I flew back from Sydney yesterday the Commission’s behalf— specifically to be here for it but I felt sure that another (a) by any person authorised by the Commission to do so, 25 would have popped in ahead of me again. Fortunately, and that has not happened. (b) to the extent so authorised. This amendment comes about because at the (4) Sub-paragraph (3) does not affect the responsibility of the moment, councils have no authority to do anything to Commission for the discharge of the function.”” maintain standards of appearance—and buildings at all—and this can be very bad for other residents The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, adjoining. The home that I sold in 1977 to very rich Department for Communities and Local Government people, who now have vast resources in this country, (Baroness Hanham): My Lords, the three government was done up at that time and has not been touched amendments in this group give the Local Government since. It is really quite sad to go past and see the Ombudsman the power to operate shared services gutters falling off and the stucco all in pieces. People with other public sector ombudsmen and clarifies the in that street told me that they have repeatedly asked if organisation’s ability to delegate functions to its staff. something could be done about it, and the council has Making provision for our public sector ombudsmen said that no, it has no powers to even request this. to share back-office functions makes sound, practical These people have taken petitions up to the owners of sense, providing as it does scope for better, efficient that house, but nothing has happened. When I asked working. Moreover, making provision for public sector the council, it said that it has powers if something is ombudsmen to share services, like a single point of unsafe and going to fall down, or if it is a listed contact for complaints from the public about public building—although even if it is a listed building, it sector service failures such as social housing, has clear cannot ask for it to be maintained; it can only prevent advantages for the public. it from actually falling down when it gets to that point. The amendment provides assurance that the I was surprised that the council says that it has no Commission for Local Administration in England, as powers in this respect. a corporate body, has the power to delegate functions It should not be a case of demanding that people to its officers—for instance, the ability for a member keep a place in immaculate condition. I know of a of staff to negotiate and let a contract for cleaning the similar case in Montpelier Square, where local residents office. This in no way relates to the delegation powers get very distressed by this. It is worth thinking about of the commissioners themselves, who have clear powers having an enabling power for councils. I hope that it of delegation that allow officers of the commission to would be needed. I beg to move. investigate cases. The other two amendments in this group, first, Lord Beecham: My Lords, I have some sympathy make provision for the commencement of the provision with the noble Baroness, and welcome her on her that I have just described and, secondly, amend the return from her homeland. I trust she has not been title of the Bill to give the Commission for Local suffering from jet lag; I will not detain her too long. Administration in England its proper title. I am not sure that the amendment is necessarily the right way to deal with this. My understanding is that Lord Beecham: All of us on the opposition Benches in conservation areas there are provisions under the are happy to concur with the amendment moved by Town and Country Planning Acts for steps to be taken the Minister. to maintain properties of this kind. It is not without interest that in Edinburgh recently there have apparently Amendment 191A agreed. been problems with requirements being imposed on local residents by the local authority—who appear to have powers similar to those advanced in this 5pm amendment—which have caused some controversy. Apparently large sums of money have had to be laid Amendment 192 out on improving or maintaining properties, and some Moved by Baroness Gardner of Parkes of those who are benefiting from those expenditures have been connected with the decision-making process. 192: After Clause 30, insert the following new Clause— That would not be applicable if the amendment were “Power to require property to be maintained to appropriate carried, and one would hope that it would not occur. standard Nevertheless, it is difficult to define exactly what standards A local authority may by byelaws make provision requiring would be required. that, on receipt by the local authority of a petition from residents of a particular street or other residential area to There is, however, a more general point which applies the effect that one or more properties in their street or to this and the other amendments in the name of the area are not being maintained to the standard appropriate noble Baroness, and that is the general by-law-making 1355 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1356 powers of local government. This is something I took I was getting at. I hope we will see the day when up with the previous Administration, and some special items of need for particular councils can be modifications were made about that issue. It might be dealt with more directly in that way. I beg leave to worth the Government looking at the extent to which withdraw the amendment. councils are free to make by-laws as opposed to having to have everything approved by individual departments. Amendment 192 withdrawn. Alongside that, perhaps the Government could look at the question of consent regimes generally, which is Amendment 193 something again that I have been attempting to pursue for a number of years, including in some recent Written Moved by Baroness Gardner of Parkes Questions. 193: After Clause 30, insert the following new Clause— The noble Baroness has touched on an issue, perhaps “Power to make byelaws about smoke-free places almost inadvertently, that is worth considering: the (1) A local authority may make byelaws designating as smoke-free capacity of local authorities to make particular provisions any place or description of place that is not smoke-free under for their areas without necessarily having to have section 2 of the Health Act 2006. everything approved by central government. I do not (2) The place, or places falling within the description, need not know how the Minister will respond; I suspect that he be enclosed or substantially enclosed. will acknowledge the good intentions but say that (3) The byelaws may provide for such places, or places falling perhaps it is not appropriate for this Bill, and I certainly within the description, to be smoke-free only— would not press him to go further than that. However, (a) in specified circumstances, I ask the Government to take back the issues of (b) at specified times, by-law-making powers and consent regimes generally, (c) if specified conditions are satisfied, not for the purposes of this Bill, but as part of a (d) in specified areas, localist agenda. or any combination of those. (4) Terms used in this section have the same meanings as in the Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I thank the Health Act 2006.” noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, for introducing her amendment and welcome her back to Britain. Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, this Local authorities already have extensive powers to amendment came to me because someone who lives take action where a property is dangerous or having near me in central London phoned me and said, “I an adverse impact on the amenity of the neighbourhood. don’t know what to do. I can’t open the windows on I see no need for additional powers. Under the Housing this swelteringly hot day because all the people who Act 2004, local authorities can tackle poor conditions are working on the local building site are sitting along across all residential properties. If a property is found the garages below my residence, and the smoke is so to contain serious hazards, the local authority can intense that I can’t open the window. I am going to die instruct its owner to undertake any works necessary to of the heat”. She did not die of the heat; nevertheless, ensure that it is safe. Inspections and any subsequent I rang the local council. It was not something I had enforcement to address the disrepair can be triggered ever thought about before. I said, “What can you do by complaints to the local authority. about it?”. The council said, “We can do nothing. We Local authorities have a key role to play in identifying get these issues all the time, particularly with restaurants empty properties in their areas, and in developing and bars. Lots of people now congregate outside them strategies to bring them back into effective use. We because they can’t smoke inside”. If anyone happens encourage local authorities to work with owners to to live within reach of the smoke, it is absolutely persuade them of the benefits of bringing their property deadly for them. It would be helpful if the council back into use. However, where it is clear that owners could make this a planning issue. are not prepared to co-operate with efforts to get their Last month, I read in the paper that Australia property occupied through agreement, local authorities proposes to bring in completely smoke-free streets. I have enforcement powers to deal with them. Further did not hear anything about that while I was there; no powers available to local authorities to tackle disrepair one mentioned it. It is obviously of more interest to and poor maintenance include those in the Town and the press here than it is to people there. That is a bit Country Planning Act 1990. Where properties have an extreme. My amendment is fairly short and simple but adverse impact on the amenity of the area, local I have had the most intolerant e-mails and letters from authorities can require that they are tidied up, repainted people, saying that I am a fascist who is trying to ruin and, where necessary, rebuilt. I hope this will satisfy their lives and take away their right to a bit of healthy the noble Baroness and that those who are concerned smoking whenever they feel like it. It is obviously a will have more luck in getting their local authorities to very emotive issue—quite unnecessarily so. I am not pursue the powers that they have. suggesting anything wholesale. However, I am suggesting I take on board the points made by the noble Lord, that people should have the right to live in their homes Lord Beecham, on the by-law issue. I confirm that the and open their windows without finding themselves so Government will look into that further. adversely affected. I beg to move.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I thank the Minister Lord Beecham: My Lords, again, one sympathises for his reply on this matter, which he went into in with the motivation behind this amendment. Quite detail. I am even more grateful to the noble Lord, apart from the particular case to which the noble Lord Beecham, who understood the sort of point that Baroness referred, it is not a particularly attractive 1357 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1358

[LORD BEECHAM] that in the particular case I referred to one person left sight to see people hanging about smoking in the a cigarette burning which set fire to one of the garages street. However, the only grounds on which orders so there is obviously a bit more of a risk in that regard could be made would relate to the impact of that too. However, I thought that was a red herring and smoking on health. should not be brought up. Enclosed areas are of course covered by the existing This is a serious issue. I do not know what will legislation, and, as I understand it, there is power to happen in the future. I appreciate the points made designate areas other than enclosed areas, if, in the about this being perhaps more of a health issue authority’s opinion, there is significant risk that without and therefore I am pleased to have aired it today—what designation persons in the area would be exposed to a silly remark, to say “I have aired it” when we significant quantities of smoke—areas where, although are talking about smoking. I have taken on board the they are outdoors, there is a concentration of people comments that have been made and thank noble Lords or of prevailing structures around the area that might very much. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. lead to people being exposed to the smoke. If that is indeed the case, as it appears to be under the Health Act 2006, there does not appear to be any need for the Amendment 193 withdrawn. amendment. I would encourage local authorities to look at that Act. No doubt the Minister in replying Amendment 194 will have more information about that. Moved by Baroness Gardner of Parkes Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, again I thank 194: After Clause 30, insert the following new Clause— the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their “Licensing of pedicabs comments. Indeed, I have great sympathy for the (1) A local authority may by byelaws establish a scheme for the amendment as it seems to me that the place immediately licensing of pedicabs in its area. after the no-smoke zone ends is the problem territory, (2) Such a licensing scheme may make provision about— whether it is outside a public building, or wherever it (a) the compliance of pedicabs with road traffic legislation; may be. (b) where pedicabs may be stationary whilst seeking The amendment would give local authorities an business; explicit power to make by-laws designating areas as (c) the playing of music in pedicabs; smoke-free. The Health Act 2006 makes provision for (d) the roadworthiness and appearance of pedicabs; and the prohibition of smoking in enclosed public places (e) such other matters as the local authority may determine. and workspaces. It came into force in England on (3) In this section “pedicab” means a cycle constructed or 1 July 2007. Section 4 of the Act provides regulation- adapted— making powers for the Secretary of State for Health (a) to seat one or more passengers; and to make further regulations—for England—designating (b) for the purpose of being made available with a driver in as smoke-free any place or description of place that the course of a business for the purpose of carrying is not smoke-free under the Act. This could cover passengers.” outdoor places. Therefore, if the evidence on the harms of exposure to second-hand smoke becomes more robust, and the Government’s preference for voluntary Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, it is rather local action to extend smoke-free places where there is an overdose of me today, but it does make up for all a clear need is shown not to be working, the Government the times I have sat here quietly. I have mixed views can consider using Section 4 of the Health Act 2006 at about this amendment myself, particularly as yesterday a later date. I would say that, at the moment, the I came back from Heathrow by cab and the taxi driver Government do not intend to make use of these was very strongly opposed it. I thought that that was powers. However, I know that colleagues in the interesting. He said, “The moment you license them, Department of Health welcome the debate on this you are legitimising them. They are so dangerous”. He important issue and will continue to monitor developments had seen people injured. I find that this happens all the and the evidence. time when I am driving home in the evening. I will see While we are sympathetic to local authorities making a pedicab suddenly move from the left hand side of the by-laws that preserve public health, our preference is traffic, without any signal, cut right across the traffic to see local authorities promote the benefits of and possibly even do a U-turn. They really are a environments free from second-hand smoke on a voluntary danger. In the central London area they are also a basis. Creating smoke-free areas through legislation danger when they park on footpaths. People cannot gives rise to complex issues, which I know that colleagues walk past them and sometimes have to go out into the at the Department of Health would want time to street to do so. It is a genuine problem. consider carefully, and I do not think this is something I was interested in the cab driver’s remark asking we should be dealing with at this late stage of this Bill. whether you are legitimising pedicabs if you licence As such, I am afraid that I cannot support the amendment them, particularly as there is a Bill before the House or and trust that the noble Baroness will be able to perhaps some other technical measure. However, this withdraw it. issue is being considered in a wider context. My points about loud music and so on are all perfectly legitimate, Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I thank the Minister although I am not sure that this is the opportunity to and the spokesman from the Opposition for their very consider them. Meanwhile, so that we can hear the good and sound comments. I did not mention earlier Minister’s reply, I beg to move. 1359 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1360

5.15 pm as suggested in the amendment, a separate agreement for each borough in and outside London. Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, perhaps I may Most pedicabs operate in Westminster but I live in add to what my noble friend said. In fact, I introduced Camden during the week and they certainly move into the London Local Authorities Bill which originally Camden. Therefore, I believe that any such registration included a clause to provide for the licensing of pedicabs. has to be London-wide and I am not sure why Transport It went through a long process of petitions that were for London is not picking this up and running with it, heard. In the end, the promoter of the Bill, which at so to speak. that stage was the City of London, decided that it was wiser to drop the pedicabs provision in order to get the There is an issue here but I believe that licensing by Bill through. However, it was perfectly clear that the TfL on a reasonable basis would work well. I know proposal aroused a lot of opposition. There is quite a that taxi drivers do not like pedicabs because they see lot of financial interest in this pedicabs business. I am them taking away business, but we are not really here talking primarily of London—I do not know about to preserve the monopoly of taxis in taking people the situation outside London—but it is possible for around London. There is also the TfL cycle hire those employed to drive pedicabs to make quite a lot scheme, which seems to be doing quite well. of money if they are prepared to work hard, late into I believe that some of the issues that the noble the night and in the small hours of the morning. The Baroness lists in her amendment should be in some amendment is obviously not without some merit because kind of agreement, but someone has to take that there are members of the public who will use pedicabs forward and I think that it should be TfL with everyone in preference to hanging around for buses or going else’s agreement. However, every time there seems to down to the Tube. be a step forward, something stops it. Perhaps, as the Therefore, I hope my noble friend can say something noble Baroness has suggested, people do not want a on this. There is a problem that needs to be dealt with, registration system because that would legalise pedicabs. but perhaps not so much by amending this Bill but I think that pedicabs are here to stay. They are good through a local authority private Bill. The issue should fun. If they are registered, there will be some control eventually be picked up by the Government and some over them, and I hope that that will get rid of those form of regulation should be imposed. who do not comply with the regulations and that it will allow a good service to be properly enforced, with vehicles that have back red lights and front white Lord Berkeley: My Lords, as a cyclist in London, I lights, which are important. The noble Baroness makes have come to know the London Pedicabs Operators a very good point with this amendment but it is Association quite well. Yes, pedicabs irritate taxi drivers— probably not the right way to go forward at this stage. and they irritate me because they are wider than my bicycle and I cannot always get past them. However, Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, first, I taxis, cars and white vans irritate people. At some think I should make it clear to the House that my stage, we all have to live together and hope that it all father was a licensed London taxi driver and that both works well for the benefit of the community and for my brothers are licensed London taxi drivers. In fact, people who want to go somewhere late at night. Of one or two noble Lords have mentioned to me that course, tourists love pedicabs. they have been picked up by them and taken home However, I agree with the noble Baroness that there after a busy day in your Lordships’ House. is something wrong with the current situation. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, mentioned the private Bill debated here in, I think, 2009. My understanding is Lord Jenkin of Roding: If the noble Lord would that there was a voluntary registration scheme that the give way, I have suddenly realised that my eldest pedicab association was prepared to sign, given that grandson was for a time a pedicab driver and I should Westminster City Council apparently made specific have declared that. undertakings in Committee to provide pedicab ranks around Westminster. That has not happened and the Lord Kennedy of Southwark: As far as it goes, I whole idea seems to have evaporated. support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Perhaps I may move on to early this year, when a Lady Gardner of Parkes. Pedicabs, and the way in new plan came from the mayor’s office, Transport for which they operate, can be a nuisance, and it is only by London, the Metropolitan Police, Westminster City licensing them that we can get some control over them. Council and the London Pedicabs Operators Association. It would therefore be good if local authorities could They were asked to draw up a framework mechanism, establish local by-laws for the licensing of pedicabs in documentation and software to satisfy the requirements their area. If people are going to travel in them, we of a formal licensing scheme that would include a should make sure that they are roadworthy, that there partnership agreement, and to write a code of conduct— is proper insurance cover for passengers, that there are which is important—and a memorandum of rules about where they can stand when waiting for understanding between those parties. However, again, business, that the people peddling them comply with nothing seems to have happened on this. traffic legislation and that, where breaches occur, there The pedicab association says that many of the is provision to get them off the road. issues listed in the noble Baroness’s amendment would I accept that at present they seem to operate only in in fact be in some of the agreements that it was central London, so Westminster council faces the biggest setting out to achieve. The one thing that it says problem. However, like my noble friend Lord Berkeley, would be very difficult—and I agree—is to have, I would have preferred to see London-wide licensing 1361 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1362

[LORD KENNEDY OF SOUTHWARK] central London boroughs. You have to have a blue of pedicabs. They will no doubt move elsewhere, with badge and a local badge as well to take full advantage Camden, Islington, Kensington and Chelsea, Southwark of disabled parking. If you have a blue badge, there and Lambeth all likely to have them in parts of their are blue-badge places you can use, but you cannot use boroughs. By-laws that differ from borough to borough any other parking places. Each of the three central just risk confusion and it would be better to have a London boroughs said it would make it impossible for London-wide option. However, as I said, the Opposition them, because they would be flooded by people coming support the thrust of the amendment and I hope that from outside the boroughs. So this is a long-standing the Government can indicate what they will do to deal arrangement just for central London. with this problem. I do not agree with the noble Lord that you need to have licensing for pedicabs out in Havering, for example, Earl Attlee: My Lords, I can understand why my which I represented at one time. I do not believe there noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes has moved this are any pedicabs running around Havering. I think amendment. She has explained the problem and other they are a fun thing in central London. However my noble Lords have made sensible and balanced concern is not the fun element, which I agree with my contributions. However, Transport for London and noble friend Lord Jenkin, is absolutely wonderful. In ultimately the mayor are responsible for pedicabs in Bangkok it was great fun to travel around in them. London. The Government take the view that issues However it is not a fun element if you are at risk of surrounding pedicabs in London should be dealt with being injured due to their ignoring road behaviour. at a local level, which this amendment would provide That is what worries me. for. After all, this issue only really affects London. This is an issue that needs to be tackled. I accept However, the mayor, Transport for London and the that it might be better tackled somewhere else and in London local authorities are already taking the initiative some other way. Perhaps LRT could deal with it to address the matter with straightforward measures selectively, but it has to be done selectively, because that avoid the trap of overregulation. Noble Lords will many boroughs will have no problem at all. If—as the be aware that Westminster City Council is currently noble Lord, Lord Berkeley has said—Oxford already working up a voluntary— has pedicabs then there are other places which need this issue to be addressed now. But again, the areas Lord Berkeley: I am sorry to interrupt the Minister will need be limited. but I believe that they operate in Oxford, and there is a I have listened to the debate and I think it is similar problem there. But I do not know what the valuable to have it on record for when this issue comes solution is. up again as it surely will in some other capacity. Meanwhile I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Earl Attlee: My Lords, I skilfully avoided saying that this problem was unique to London, because I thought this issue might arise, and I might get challenged Amendment 194 withdrawn. by someone like the noble Lord. Westminster City Council is currently working up a Amendment 195 voluntary registration scheme for pedicabs, with Moved by Lord Clement-Jones registration being incentivised by providing parking 195: After Clause 30, insert the following new Clause— bays and pedicab ranks for members. Those operators “CHAPTER 8 and riders subscribing to the scheme will sign up to a Powers in relation to casino premises licence code of practice, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, Variation of licences: abolition of permitted areas has already alluded to these developments. This (1) A relevant local authority may consider and, if thought fit, registration scheme would then tie in with the provisions grant an application to vary a converted casino premises licence relating to the enforcement of road traffic offences in so that it relates to premises to which it did not previously relate relation to pedicabs, which are included in the London and may do so regardless of whether or not— Local Authorities and Transport for London (No. 2) (a) the premises to which the application relates are situated Bill, currently before Parliament. Effective implementation in the area of the relevant local authority which issued of the provisions in the Bill relies on a system of the licence; and licensing or registration being in place. The relevant (b) the area of the relevant local authority in which those clause could not come into force until a registration premises are situated was a permitted area when the scheme for owners and riders has been approved by converted casino premises licence was originally issued. the Mayor of London. (2) Subsection (1) shall not require a relevant local authority to consider any application to vary a converted casino premises licence if that local authority has passed a resolution under Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I thank the noble Earl section 166 of the Gambling Act 2005 (resolution not to issue and the noble Lords who have contributed to the casino licences) and that resolution is in effect at the time the debate. It has been much wider and more interesting application is made. than I had expected. However it is an issue, and I (3) In Schedule 4 to the Gambling Act 2005 (Commencement would like to respond on a couple of points. No. 6 and Transitional Provisions) (Amendment) Order 2006 (transitional provisions), for sub-paragraph (13) of paragraph 65 The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley said that it should (application of the Gambling Act 2005 to casino premises licences apply to the whole of London. I draw attention to the granted on a conversion application) substitute— fact that traffic varies tremendously in London. For “(13) An application to vary a converted casino premises example, on the subject of disabled parking, the blue licence so that it relates to premises to which it did not previously badge scheme does not apply in any of the three relate shall be made— 1363 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1364

(a) in the case of premises wholly or partly situated in the it has no option but to close. Yet some 60 local area of the licensing authority which issued the licence, authorities applied for a 2005 licence and were to that licencing authority; or disappointed. This has led to a number of consequences. (b) in the case of premises wholly or partly situated in the There are too many casinos within existing permitted area of another licensing authority, to that other areas; there has been a closing down of casinos with licensing authority, and section 213(f) (definition of licensing authority) shall apply to such an application as resultant loss of jobs; and the Exchequer is losing if the licensing authority considering such an application money from gaming tax lost as a consequence. under paragraph (b) was the authority which issued that What is the solution? We need to be able to permit a licence. casino to move to anywhere in the UK where the local (14) Nothing in paragraph (13)(b) shall require a licensing authority is prepared to have one of the existing authority to consider or grant an application to vary a converted casino licences. Local authorities would consider whether casino premises licence so that it relates to premises to which it did not previously relate if— they wish to have a licensing policy that states they can have a casino within their area. Many local authorities (a) the premises are wholly or partly situated in the area of a licensing authority which did not issue the licence; and do, as can be seen from the number who applied to have a 2005 Act casino in their area, but were unsuccessful, (b) the licensing authority has resolved under section 166 not to issue casino premises licences and that resolution as I stated earlier. is in effect at the time the application is made.”. A casino operator with a non-operating licence—for (4) In this section— example, where it has closed down because there were “converted casino premises licence” has the same meaning as too many casinos in the current permitted area—could in the Gambling Act 2005 (Commencement No. 6 and Transitional apply to transfer the licence to a local authority that Provisions) (Amendment) Order 2006; wishes to have a casino. No local authority can be “permitted area” means the area of a local authority which forced to have a casino. Under Section 166 of the was a permitted area for the purposes of the Gaming Act 1968; Gambling Act 2005, it can resolve on a licensing “relevant local authority” means a local authority in England, policy stating that no casino licence will be granted. A Wales or Scotland which is a licensing authority under the Gambling Act 2005.” local authority which has a no-casino policy currently in place will be excluded, unless it decides to change its Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I shall speak also licensing policy. to Amendment 249A. This proposed new clause originates Even if a local authority passes a policy stating that from a well researched report by Ernst & Young in a casino can be located in its area, the public has to be July 2010, commissioned by the National Casino Industry consulted. Before a new casino can open there will still Forum. It was designed to show the impact of a need to be separate planning and premises licence number of regulatory reforms, which would improve applications where the public and any other interested the economics of the gaming industry, benefit the party will be able to make representations. Only if public, and the public purse. these two things happen will the casino be able to The current situation is totally illogical and, in the move to a new location. long run, unsustainable. There are currently 53 permitted What are the consequences? The impact of this areas where casinos regulated under the Gaming Act 1968 amendment, if accepted, will be to create new leisure are allowed. The system of permitted areas was introduced facilities in a locality, new capital expenditure, new principally to reduce the number of casinos to a jobs—the NCIF calculates that 2,400 to 3,000 new manageable number. The areas were chosen on a jobs could be created in consequence—and subjective basis. The 1971 regulations included a formula increased revenue for the Exchequer. The Ernst & under which any county borough outside Greater Young analysis confirms that up to £12 million in London with a population of 125,000 people became additional gaming duty would be levied if just 20 casinos a permitted area. relocated. When county boroughs were abolished in 1974, the This proposal does not increase problem gambling formula was altered so as to bring in those former as there is no increase in the overall permitted number county boroughs which had a population of 125,000 of casino licences. Therefore, this is a genuine win-win or more at any time between 1 December 1970 and solution. By way of explanation, Amendment 249A 1 October 1973. The list has remained frozen ever will extend the benefit of these provisions to Scotland. since. That is almost 40 years ago. In that time, I beg to move. demographics and economic conditions in these areas have changed enormously and 187 licences have been Lord Beecham: My Lords, it is almost refreshing to issued under the Gaming Act 1968. I should emphasise move from the constant headlines about the casino that this number is finite, which means that no more economy, which the world has enjoyed for the past few can be granted, but the number can be reduced. Of the years, to something as substantive and reasonable as 187 licences currently in force, 149 are trading; the the noble Lord has brought to the House today in balance have either closed down as commercially not terms of the limited number of premises to which this viable or have not been opened, many for the same amendment would apply. The key to the argument of reason. Compare that to the 8,800 betting shops in the noble Lord is that this should be a matter for local existence, which are not similarly constrained. decision within the overall context of that limited Currently, a casino can relocate only within the number. It seems to be entirely consistent with the permitted area in which it is located; so it cannot approach of localism—it should be a matter for local locate to another permitted area or to a town that is determination—with the benefits that the noble Lord not in a permitted area. Hence, if the permitted area is has referred to being realised in a number of places overcrowded and the casino is commercially unviable that wish to see that kind of development augmenting 1365 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1366

[LORD BEECHAM] those new casinos is known because I think the good their current offer to residents and visitors. I hope that sense of this proposal is self-evident. In the mean time, the Government will look sympathetically on the I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. amendment and facilitate its passage. Amendment 195 withdrawn. Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have spoken on this amendment. I am aware that this amendment would make changes that Amendment 195ZA some elements of the British casino industry have been seeking for some time. I can sympathise with the Moved by Lord Marlesford sentiments behind it, but this is not the right time to 195ZA: After Clause 30, insert the following new Clause— discuss the issues that the noble Lord raises. It is not “Litter deposited from motor vehicles an uncontroversial proposal and it would be wrong to (1) Local authorities may make byelaws about litter deposited assume that there is unanimous support for it either from motor vehicles. inside or outside the industry. (2) Such byelaws may include provisions about— Seventeen new licenses were provided for by the (a) the application of section 87 of the Environmental Gaming Act 2005 aimed at contributing to economic Protection Act 1990 (offence of leaving litter) to litter development and regeneration in carefully selected deposited from motor vehicles; locations. We do not know what sort of impact this (b) the procedures for identifying the person in charge of a proposal could have on the eight competitions to motor vehicle; and award the new licenses which are currently under way. (c) the information which the registered keeper of a vehicle All of those have yet to launch their processes. It may be required to provide the local authority.” would not be right to bring forward measures at this stage which could undermine these competitions and Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I seek to include a adversely affect the benefits that these new casinos provision to support local authorities in reducing the could bring to local communities. level of litter from vehicles. The Minister will know that an amendment was tabled in the other Nor should we assume that the casino industry in place, new Clause 23, on Report. I also tabled an Britain is united behind this proposal. I understand amendment to raise the issue in Committee, but I that the industry is split over the idea. The National withdrew it on the understanding that it could be Casino Industry Forum supports it, but the Casino revisited on Report. Operators Association is thoroughly opposed. That is not to say that the Government reject outright the A minor change to the law in this area is supported principle behind the amendment, but there is some by the Campaign to Protect Rural England and its way to go before we could consider offering our support president, Bill Bryson, the Keep Britain Tidy group and we would need to look at some issues. For example, and the Local Government Group. More than the amendment as proposed does not require the 40 or 100 councils have requested that change so that they 50 currently dormant casino licences to be handed can take action against those who litter from back as a quid pro quo. That might be an important vehicles. I should perhaps declare an interest, having gesture to ensure that any new flexibility did not lead previously been for five years the chairman of CPRE to a substantial increase in the number of casinos. and currently being the president of the Suffolk Preservation Society. The relevant Minister, the Minister for Tourism, who is responsible for gambling policy has met with I am sorry—indeed, ashamed—to say that Britain representatives of the industry a number of times and is a very dirty nation. It is one of the dirtiest nations they are fully aware of his views. I am sure that he on a world scale but would be pretty close to the top of would be prepared to consider this matter in the future dirty nations on a European scale, which is very shaming. in the terms that I have just outlined. With those Litter is something on which we can take action. reassurances, I hope that the noble Lord is willing to Many years ago, when I was young in the 1960s, I sat withdraw the amendment. for a while at the feet of Ernest Marples. Ernest Marples was one of the most remarkable Ministers I Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I thank the Minister was ever able to observe. He had a maxim in politics: for that reply. If those are reassurances, I wonder what “It is not what you say that matters; it is what you do”. a negative response would be. I thank the noble Lord, I want to say something about what we can do about Lord Beecham, for his very positive response and I am litter on roads. grateful for his support. This is an anomaly and it I have followed the issue for a while. There are two should be covered by localism, the very word in the basic reasons why there is so much litter on roads. The title of the Bill. On the other hand, I understand that first, of course, is that it is thrown on to the roads; but the industry is not completely united on this. There is secondly, a real problem, is that contractors or some wisdom in what the Minister has to say about subcontractors whom the local authorities designate waiting to see the outcome of the second round of the to clean up roads fail to do their job. I have frequently 2005 licences. followed that up, because when I go along a really I take some comfort from the Minister’s comments dirty road, I am inclined to put down a Question for that this will be kept under review. I have an awful Written Answer to ask the Government when they feeling that it is never the right time and that it is easy intend to have it cleared up. Almost always, I get the to say that it is not the right time now. The NCIF, Answer that it will be cleared up shortly; and almost myself and others will be entering the lists again just always it is, but I do not think that that is necessarily as soon as the 2005 round is over and the impact of the best way to go about it. 1367 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1368

We are in no doubt that littering from cars is a goal worth pursuing. It is surely one test of how well a serious problem. It is estimated that seven out of country is governed how tidy it is. I remember, when I 10 pieces of litter which blight in the countryside are visited Libya in the last years of Gaddafi’s regime, how dropped from cars. In 2009, the AA found in an online staggered and disgusted I was to see the quantity of poll of more than 8,000 drivers that 75 per cent of litter to be found on the road between the airport and them thought that littering was a serious problem and the centre of Tripoli. It was knee-deep in plastic. Of that 94 per cent of them thought that it damaged their course, that was under a dictatorship, where regulating community. such things should be easier. It is clear that Ministers in Defra share our concerns. I also understand that the present situation here, In December, my noble friend Lord Henley—who has where responsibility must be pinned on the person now, of course, moved to greater and even more who has thrown the litter, is unsatisfactory.It is difficult important things—reported at the first National Litter enough to trace a car from which litter has been Convention that the Secretary of State, my right thrown. To then require the prosecuting authority to honourable friend Caroline Spelman, had asked him identify the culprits in the car is surely asking too to look at the roadside litter issue. At the launch of the much. It seems to me quite reasonable to hold the Waste Review in June, I understand that my right registered keeper of the vehicle responsible. As my honourable friend referred to littering from cars as a noble friend explained, that is the idea behind the perennial bugbear and suggested that there might be a amendment. Whether such a change in the law would need for a roadside litter summit. Given that the issue be successful in reducing the amount of litter thrown, is clearly being taken seriously by the Government, I we would have to see. I can certainly imagine that it suggest that the Bill is the ideal place to do something, would have a deterrent effect, with vehicle keepers not rather than just to talk. wanting to be exposed to legal penalties as a result of Existing law already allows for people who throw the actions of other people, whether members of their litter from cars to be fined. The problem is that, in family or not, and therefore to some extent themselves practice, councils have found it very difficult to use the acting as policemen. power, as it is often impossible to prove who within the Unfortunately, the amendment, for a reason which car was responsible for throwing the litter. The change I do not entirely understand, does not propose creating in the law that I advocate would correct that problem a new national offence. As I understand it, the Bill was very simply and allow councils to issue fines to the thought to be an unsuitable vehicle, although the registered owner of the vehicle, who would be responsible amendment in another place proposed exactly that. for paying the fine concerned unless another person This amendment would simply enable local authorities was nominated by the driver to pay it. That is a to adopt by-laws along the lines my noble friend standard feature which currently applies to speeding described. As he said, there are grounds for believing fines, seatbelt offences and fly-tipping. The change is that many local authorities might be interested in not about more regulation, it is about better and more doing that. On that basis, I recommend the amendment effective regulation. It is something that we know that to the House. I very much hope that the Minister will local councils are asking for. indicate that the Government now intend to do something More than 1,000 CPRE supporters have written to about this problem. their MPs to request that the amendment be made. I gather that the Labour Party made a pre-election Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I have huge pledge to make this legislative change, so there is sympathy with my noble friend’s amendment. Before clearly widespread support for making existing powers he left the Chamber, my noble friend Lord Newton, to tackle roadside littering more effective. who is taking part in the Welfare Reform Bill Committee, The amendment tabled in another place proposed said that he was sorry not to be able to add his voice that the Bill should be amended in the way that I because he feels very strongly about this. outlined. Amendment 195ZA is very similar, but it For nearly 30 years I lived in rural Essex within would give local councils the power to make by-laws reach of my former constituency, and one of the to address the problem. I am not saying that disadvantages of the road we lived in was that it was Amendment 195ZA is entirely practical as it stands, perennially the subject of littering. There was a corner but I look forward to the Minister’s response because, at the bottom of the hill with a bit of spare ground on in the other place, the Minister did not provide the the left-hand side and my children very quickly christened honourable Member for Gateshead, Ian Mearns, with it “Mattress Corner”. It had become a place where a substantive reply. I hope that the Minister will commit people could dump their unwanted mattresses, which to introducing a government amendment to tackle this then had to be cleared up by the local authority. It was problem at Third Reading. We are all on the same side not only that. We lived a mile and a half outside the in this, but it is a matter of actually doing something. I village where there was a fish and chip shop. We beg to move. discovered that we were almost exactly the distance away that it took people to eat a bag of chips. I found 5.45 pm myself as the riparian householder having to go out at Lord Reay: My Lords, I have put my name to my fairly regular intervals with a plastic sack and one of noble friend’s amendment. Litter thrown from motor those nice machines with which you can pick up things cars is a scourge of the countryside. It is a regular and pop them in the sack, simply to clear up the litter practice for people to discard litter from moving vehicles—in on both sides of the road that had been deposited by particular, drink containers and food wrappings. I am passing vehicles. Even if you saw a car with litter being sure that to try to reduce the incidence of that habit is a thrown out of the window as it went past, there was 1369 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1370

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] other legislation. But this is really too good an opportunity nothing you could do. You did not know who the to miss and I hope that the Minister in replying, even if driver was or who had thrown it out. There was no he cannot say today that the amendment will be point in taking down the number because nobody accepted, will indicate that by Third Reading there would do anything about it. You had to prove who it will be a clear position and the Government will feel was. So I have every sympathy with this. able to adopt it. My noble friend Lord Marlesford said that it is not Of course, as the noble Lord pointed out, this is enough just to talk; you have to do. I have previously essentially a matter of enforcement. There is little declared an interest as the joint president of London point in having regulations without the capacity to Councils and I am happy to say that London Councils enforce them. But, as the Essex police have found out is engaged at the moment in tackling this problem in in another context, enforcing measures concerning the London. It does this on behalf of the London boroughs driving of vehicles is not necessarily straightforward. and I think it is now ahead of the game. The London This would certainly obviate the kind of difficulties Local Authorities Act 2007 contains a provision to that have arisen in another case and one would hope decriminalise the dumping of litter from cars and to that the Government would see the logic of that and impose a liability for penalty charges on the keeper of accept the thrust of the noble Lord’s amendment, and the vehicle. That is slightly different from the proposal see to it one way or another that the objective which put forward in my noble friend’s amendment but it is most of your Lordships share is carried into being. clear that we all have the same objectives in mind. A London Local Authorities Bill is currently awaiting its Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I thank noble final stages in the other place. It will make a small Lords who have taken part in this debate and pay drafting correction to that provision which will allow tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and his it to come into force. tenacity in pursuing this issue. It is always said that Other steps are necessary. Discussions have taken this is a House of experts. I had not appreciated the place and progress is being made with the Ministry of expertise that we had between us about the distance Justice in relation to the making of regulations which from the fish and chip shop to the home. I am also an will enable London borough councils to enforce their expert on this. The home where I was brought up and penalty charges under the civil regime in the courts. lived until I was 23 was the exact same distance from Officials are also co-operating on the necessary alterations the fish and chip shop. It was our garden that caught to the Civil Procedure Rules and London borough the recycled newspapers which in those days were used councils understand that these changes and regulations for wrapping up fish and chips, and we had to keep will be made very shortly. I hope my noble friend on shifting them, so I understand the concern that people the Front Bench will be able to confirm that the have about litter. provisions will be implemented very soon and the This amendment would give local authorities an system can start to work in London. That is doing and explicit power to make by-laws about littering from not just talking. I believe London will show that this cars. Throwing litter from vehicles on to public land is solution is perfectly feasible and can be addressed by a littering offence under Section 87 of the Environmental local authorities. Other authorities may wish to copy Protection Act 1990. Indeed, some local authorities what London Councils is doing and it will not be the successfully tackle litter louts, issuing them with fixed first time that has happened. I support my noble penalty notices. I fully acknowledge that taking friend’s amendment. enforcement action against those who litter from vehicles can often represent a practical problem. However, Lord Beecham: My Lords, I am very taken with the extending the scope of the littering offence, as was image of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, patrolling the also suggested by the Local Government Group in its highways and byways of rural Essex as a sort of amendment rejected in Committee in the Commons, unpaid litter warden. It is a charming thought and I raises issues of fairness and proportionality. A registered am sure he did a very good job, but he should not have keeper may be open to prosecution even though they to. That is the message of the amendment tabled by did not commit the offence and were not present to the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and I congratulate prevent it. It may not always be a ready solution for him on bringing this matter to the attention of the the registered keeper to avoid prosecution by identifying House and hope that the Government will be able to who was the actual offender. respond. As the noble Lord said, the matter was However, as has been mentioned by the noble Lord, debated in another place on an amendment moved by Lord Jenkin of Roding, powers will shortly become the Member for Gateshead, Ian Mearns, with whom I available to London boroughs following enactment of was discussing this on the train from Newcastle this the latest London Local Authorities Bill, currently morning. He received what seemed to be a sympathetic before Parliament, which will allow them to issue a response from the Minister, Andrew Stunell, who said: civil penalty to registered keepers where enforcement “We will certainly look carefully at the matters that have been officers witness littering from a vehicle. It makes sense raised”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/5/11; col. 441.] to learn the lessons from the application of that approach Time has passed so I hope that the consideration has in London before moving to wider legislation—and taken place. I think it is preferable to have this in legislation is not the only approach. Changing littering national legislation rather than leave it to by-laws. behaviour is key. That is why the Government are There seems to be no reason why this amendment supporting Keep Britain Tidy in developing the Love should not be proceeded with on this Bill or at least a Where YouLive campaign. That work with businesses, clear indication given that it will have some priority in local authorities and civil society partners will make 1371 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1372 an important contribution to changing behaviour on To start, it would be helpful to reaffirm the basic littering in all its forms. The Defra Secretary of State principles here: this is about encouraging authorities is calling together later this year representatives of not to incur fines for the UK in the first place. In the vehicle hirers, motoring associations, manufacturers, unprecedented circumstance that the UK is fined in service stations et cetera with a view to agreeing a relation to an infraction, it is about achieving compliance voluntary commitment to tackle littering from vehicles. quickly, using a process which is fair, proportionate, It is one of the guiding principles of making a reasonable and holds no surprises. We do not want to by-law that no by-law should reproduce national pay escalating fines to Europe. We have never incurred legislation, which is what this amendment would achieve. fines regarding an infraction and do not see these That being the case, and although I certainly support provisions as a prelude to being more relaxed about the intention behind the amendment, which is that the infraction proceedings or fines. anti-social practice of littering should be a criminal All this is reflected in the policy statement of the offence, I cannot support it and trust that the noble Local Government Group, which has been placed in Lord will feel able to withdraw it. the House Library and updates the one previously put forward by the Greater London Authority. I strongly 6pm welcome the statement, which is very helpful. I thank both the Local Government Group and the Greater Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I am afraid that that London Authority for working with us so closely on was a real example of talk rather than action. Frankly, this, and for their help and support. This paper will it was a very disappointing answer. My noble friend form the basis of a government policy statement on said that we should wait and see how the new penalty which we will consult more fully in due course. worked in London. He spoke of changing behaviour and said that the offence might be disproportionate or The noble Lords, Lord Tope and Lord McKenzie unfair. It is a thoroughly unsatisfactory answer. I did of Luton, each provided convincing proposals on not get the feeling that my noble friend was indicating designation in Committee. I have combined these and that any action on the Bill would be taken at Third taken them further so that the Minister would need to Reading. I will of course withdraw the amendment designate each authority by order, using the affirmative today, but we may well have to press it at Third procedure and specifying the infraction case and related Reading. The Minister’s answer really was disappointing. activities of the authority, before the Localism Bill’s If this Government cannot steel themselves to do provisions could be used. The activities described must something about litter, what can they achieve? take place after the order comes into force and will relate to the authority’s functions and obligations. Amendment 195ZA withdrawn. This means that authorities can be designated only for something which is their responsibility. Only actions or failures to act following designation would be taken Clause 31 : Power to require local or public authorities into account when deciding whether to pass on a fine, to make payments in respect of certain EU financial and only in relation to the specific infraction case. The sanctions designation order would cease to have effect when the infraction case was closed. This responds to concerns on retrospectivity raised previously and highlighted in Amendment 195ZAA Committee by my noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree. Moved by Earl Attlee It puts in place a mechanism which will give authorities an early opportunity to put things right, to solve the 195ZAA: Clause 31, page 29, line 22, leave out subsections (1) to (5) and insert— problem, before any fine. It also means that this House and the other place will have the ability to test the “(1) A Minister of the Crown may, in accordance with the provisions of this Part, require public authorities to make payments rationale for the proposed designation in debate. If of amounts determined by a Minister of the Crown in respect of this does not provide sufficient incentive, and in the an EU financial sanction to which this Part applies. unprecedented circumstance that the UK is fined for (2) A requirement to make a payment under this Part— failing to comply with EU law, we will establish an (a) may only be imposed on a public authority if— independent advisory panel before seeking to recover any fines. (i) the authority has been designated under section (Designation of public authorities); and I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Gardner of (ii) the EU financial sanction concerned is one to Parkes and the noble Lord, Lord Best, for suggesting which the designation applies; and how an independent advisory panel could provide (b) must be imposed by a notice given to the authority sufficient checks and balances to ensure that the Minister under section 33 (referred to in this Part as a final could not act at the same time as prosecutor, judge, notice).” jury and co-defendant on these matters. As I made clear in Committee, we remain committed to the principles Earl Attlee: My Lords, I shall speak to a necessarily of transparency, fairness, reasonableness and long list of amendments, starting with Amendment proportionality. This amendment will enhance all these 195ZAA. The amendments deal with EU fines. I thank qualities. noble Lords for the constructive suggestions made Such a panel would be formed at the point of need, during and since Committee. As a direct result, I am with relevant legal, topical and sectoral expertise for able to move some substantial amendments and therefore the specific case. The Minister would consult the panel intend to take a little time explaining them. on the procedure and timetable. The panel would 1373 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1374

[EARL ATTLEE] incentivising avoidance of fines. We are radically devolving receive representations directly from the Minister and power, but that needs to go hand in hand with from the authorities involved. It would carry out responsibility. Therefore, I strongly believe that these fact-finding and make published recommendations to provisions will help to protect UK taxpayers. I beg to the Minister, including on the fair apportionment of move the government amendment, and hope that the culpability. noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, will be willing to withdraw I remain strongly of the opinion that decision-making his amendments at the appropriate point after he has should remain with the Minister as an elected member spoken to them. of the Government with responsibility to make such decisions on resources. Any Minister acting against Lord Tope: My Lords, as I think I was the first to recommendations would need strong reasons for doing complain about the original provisions of the Bill so should there be a subsequent judicial review. when we considered it in Committee, it is only right The amendments on the process reflect the new role that I should now be the first to rise to congratulate of an independent panel and will enable the authority the Minister on what he has achieved since we were in better to plan its finances by covering all possible Committee. I said at that time, with great regret, that payments up front: lump-sum, accrued and ongoing the first that local government knew of the Government’s periodic fines. This transparency could be a big help, intentions on EU fines was when they read it in the allowing the authority to weigh the costs of fines Bill, which was most unsatisfactory. That is not the against the costs of speedy compliance. responsibility of the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, at all. Any ongoing liability to pay towards a fine from the His responsibility is the leadership that he has shown EU would end at the point where the authority since that time in retrieving this situation. None of us demonstrated that it had taken all reasonable steps to would have wished to start from there, but that is comply. There is also provision for liability to be where we found ourselves. The noble Earl has worked reduced—but not increased—if there is a change of tirelessly since that time to achieve a compromise that circumstances. is fully and wholly accepted by the Local Government We are extending the provisions to cover reserved Group, the Greater London Authority and, as far as I matters in devolved areas. I am grateful to the noble am aware, all others involved in this. It is still their Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Empey, who spoke on position that it would be better if this were not in the this, with others, in Committee. I can confirm to the Bill at all, but that is not too surprising—most people House that the extension of the provisions to cover would rather not have provisions to fine them in reserved matters, without prejudicing the performance legislation. Given that it is the Government’s intention, of any devolved functions, has the full agreement of for the reasons given, that this will be in the Bill when all the devolved Administrations. On the request of it is enacted, then—thanks to the noble Earl and, as I the Welsh Government, we are also providing a mirror think he would be the first to acknowledge, thanks power for Welsh Ministers to pass on EU fines to to his officials—we have achieved a satisfactory responsible public authorities exercising devolved functions outcome. in Wales. This replicates the UK provisions in their The only point that I would like to add is to entirety, including designation by order. welcome—as I also said in Committee—the statement The rest of my amendments make changes to ensure of policy. It is a very good intention that the Government that the clauses as a whole work together. will discuss with local government those areas of concern in upcoming proposed EU legislation that has Finally, I should like to respond to the amendment a significant effect upon local government. That is a proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley—in advance very welcome good intention but I want to be sure that of him moving it—which would ensure that the it happens. I have no doubt whatever that, as far as the Government could not designate any rail or inland noble Earl’s department is concerned, that has always waterway provider. I agree that we should not penalise been the case. I have been for many years a member of companies for their private services and functions, but the Local Government Association’s European and where a company is performing a public function, and international board and its predecessor’s bodies, right only for that public function, they need to be encouraged back to the days of the Local Government International to comply with EU law in order to avoid significant Bureau. For some time in the early days of the new fines being picked up by the British taxpayer. Where a Labour Government we had regular meetings, not private company has responsibility under statute to only with CLG, but also with the FCO and the Europe carry out public functions, the default position would Minister to discuss issues of concern. They fell into be to use any existing regulatory framework to resolve abeyance some years ago and do not happen any the issue. A Minister would seek to designate a private longer. My plea to the noble Earl, and through him to company only if it was carrying out a public function, the Government, is to ensure that this very welcome if it had caused or contributed to an active infraction statement of policy does not just remain a statement case, and if any regulatory body had not been able of good intent but is actually put into practice. I am effectively to incentivise compliance. This would of sure that this sort of meaningful dialogue between course be tested by this House and the other place representatives of local government and representatives should a Minister seek to designate in such circumstances. of central Government—not just CLG, but also the I hope that this demonstrates that I have taken on FCO and other departments dealing with these issues, board the points raised in Committee, and that these as appropriate—can only be to mutual benefit and provisions are stronger and better as a result. With will, we all hope, ensure that the provisions that we these amendments there is a very clear emphasis on will shortly pass will never need to be used. 1375 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1376

6.15 pm Jenkin, made about the retrospective nature. There will be a time when these clauses come into effect, but Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I raised this issue there is also a time when the European process moves at Second Reading, as did a number of other noble forward from infraction proceedings and reasoned Lords. I would like to join my noble friend Lord Tope opinions to the court summons and finally the court in expressing gratitude to my noble friend Lord Attlee decision. That can take several years. The UK Government for the immense amount of work that he and his have a good record in complying with EU regulations. officials have done to produce this substantial body of I am involved in railway issues, and in the first railway amendments, which to my mind now make this provision package there are 13 member states with infraction acceptable. I particularly welcome his efforts to produce proceedings against them. We are not one of them, what probably would be called a “Keeling schedule”, except for a new one relating to the Channel Tunnel. showing what these clauses will look like in toto if the On the whole, we have quite a good record, but quite amendments are passed. It is rather difficult otherwise often the cause of the eventual fine could be something to fit them into the Bill. However, that was an immensely that was created several years beforehand. The local helpful document which I hope my noble friend’s authority may not have been able to do something, or other colleagues on the Front Bench might be persuaded something may have gone wrong and it is grinding on to imitate from time to time. For those of us who have with the Government refusing to give way, and three to grapple with these things ourselves, it can be much or four years later it gets to the European Court. I more helpful to know what the whole thing is going to hope that the Minister will look at the retrospective look like, rather than just looking at a whole series of nature of this not only from the UK side but also from amendments. This is a very helpful precedent which I the European side as to where the so-called potential hope will be followed in the future. offence has been committed and when. I have only one question to my noble friend. It is a point that I have made on previous occasions, and it My amendment was of course a probing one. I am concerns retrospective operation. My noble friend has very grateful to the Minister for his answer, which he assured me that nothing in these amendments will gave before I had the chance to speak to it. That make the powers retrospective so that a penalty may enables me to ask another question to clarify things. be imposed on a local authority for something that The Minister said that the provision would apply to a has already happened. I would be most grateful if he private company carrying out or performing “public could give us an assurance on this when he winds up functions”. I assume that “public functions” in this the debate. respect means operating rail or inland waterway infrastructure, although that could be carried out by a I understand that this cannot apply to fines that private company. I am not convinced that the Rail have already been imposed on the Government, but Regulator has powers to enforce fines on Network you could have a directive which imposed obligations Rail—I do not think that there is a regulator for on a local authority where that local authority was inland waterways yet—when something contravenes previously in breach and subsequently a fine was European regulations. I am sure that there will be an imposed on central Government. I would welcome an answer to this but perhaps when he responds the assurance that under no circumstances could that fine Minister could agree to look at this matter further so refer to anything that has happened before the date of that there is some clarity within Network Rail and the process introduced by these amendments. Nothing eventually the British Waterways charity about the could be done before these amendments have taken circumstances under which they might be liable for a effect—they must not be retrospective or retroactive. I fine. I conclude by congratulating Minister very strongly take encouragement from my noble friend saying that on a really good piece of legislation. one of his principles is that there will be no surprises. That, to my mind, is immensely valuable. If he could say that that rules out any retroactive effect of these Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I am delighted by the amendments, that would be very helpful indeed. policy statement but I have one question that I hope the Minister will be able to answer. In relation to panel I thank my noble friend for his enormous efforts. membership, I notice that the statement of policy He explained to me that he had to get the assent of specifies that, every other government department in Whitehall. He is a magician to have achieved that. One understands “The relevant representative body will put forward nominations the difficulties that he has faced and I thank him very in respect of its members”, much. of persons with sectoral experience, to the Minister. What opportunities will there be for bodies such as the Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I join the noble Lords, Greater London Authority, which are not part of a Lord Tope and Lord Jenkin, in congratulating the representative organisation, to make nominations to Minister. I raised one or two issues in relation to this the Minister in respect of panel membership? I would matter in Committee and I think that the noble Lord be grateful if he could answer that question, which has done a fantastic job in a short space of time to probably relates to Amendment 195ZAJ but I find it come up with a process that few can fault, if one is so difficult when I look at all those amendments to going to have fines at all, and they do arise. I warmly know exactly which one it relates to. congratulate him and join others in hoping that this happens more often with other legislation that comes Lord Beecham: I join other noble Lords in warmly before your Lordships’ House. congratulating the noble Earl on the manner in which Before I speak to my own amendments, I would like this matter has now been put back on track. The noble to follow up on a point that the noble Lord, Lord Lord, Lord Tope, said that most of us would not have 1377 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1378

[LORD BEECHAM] My final point is crucially important. The panel wished to have started from here, but where we are that will determine these matters and the Minister will ending owes very much to the thoroughness, attention consider the authority’s ability to pay a fine and to detail and decisiveness of the noble Earl—qualities provide for possible alternatives in the event that the in which he emulates his distinguished grandfather. It ability to pay is not present. It is conceivable that a is some 49 years since I had the pleasure of meeting small district council might find it impossible to pay a the noble Earl’s grandfather and he made a significant significant fine in respect of some infraction of impression on me, young as I was at that time. The environmental legislation within its competence. It is noble Earl is doing so again today, not merely to me extremely welcome that the Government have but to all Members of your Lordships’ House. acknowledged that that is a risk and that they will not be seeking to extort from such an authority a contribution Lord Jenkin of Roding: My noble friend’s grandfather to a financial penalty that would seriously impede the lived in my constituency. activities of that local authority. Lord Beecham: He was none the worse for that. I do Thanks very largely to the Minister, we have reached not think that his wife, who used to drive him around, a satisfactory position on this. It has been a good would have been guilty of depositing fish and chip example of the way in which local government and the papers anywhere near the noble Lord’s house. Government can work together and in which Ministers The position that we have reached is one that the can listen to proceedings in your Lordships’ House, Local Government Association has worked very hard take back concerns and proposals and work with with the Minister and colleagues from all sides of the them. I hope that the noble Earl will feel able, House to achieve. In particular, the outcomes around metaphorically at least, to bite one or two of his the designation and the opportunity to correct a situation ministerial colleagues, in the hope that this becomes a that perhaps led to a fine—the provision of an effective habit across Government and not confined to the appeals system—have all been significant. I am encouraged noble Earl. that the statement of policy that has been produced by the Local Government Group is one that I understand Earl Attlee: My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Government are minded to adopt. Perhaps when Lord Tope and other noble Lords for their kind comments. he replies the noble Earl will indicate how far their First, I plead not guilty for all the work: it was my consideration of the document has gone and whether officials what done it. there are likely to be any issues of significance that My noble friend Lord Tope talked about consultation might not accord with the proposals that have been on the EU legislation and the fact that we are committed made. I understand that effectively an agreed position to consulting with local authorities. I am confident has been reached around four main areas: working that the LGG will hold our feet to the fire on this issue. in partnership; that there should be no surprises; My noble friend Lord Jenkin mentioned Keeling that there should be a fair and proportionate process; schedules. They are useful in certain circumstances but and that consideration should be given to the ability the decision to use them is decided on a case-by-case to pay. basis. One of the crucial issues first voiced in the debate My noble friend also asked me to give an assurance to the Committee by the LGA was the lack of an that under no circumstances could fines refer to activities, opportunity for local government to be involved in the errors and omissions made before the Bill passes. I am legislation from which proceedings ultimately might very happy to give an absolute assurance that under flow in terms of infringement of European law. It is no circumstances can the provisions be used retrospectively. welcome that the Government have now indicated that Subsection (5)(b) of the clause proposed by Amendment local government will be identified specifically as a key 195ZAH means that only actions or inactions after sector for consultation when the Government enter designation can be taken into account. This is extremely into negotiations on EU legislation that could ultimately important because it allows all those affected to lead to fines coming down to local authorities. That is concentrate on solving the problem rather than listening an extremely important extension of the consultative to the lawyers and doing nothing other than arguing. role that should ensure that the legislation is right in It is a very important point. the first place, which would be a distinct improvement on the position hitherto. 6.30 pm The Minister has made it clear that there will be no surprises in future. No local authority will be taken by Similarly on retrospectivity, the noble Lord, Lord surprise because of the designation process, which is a Berkeley, talked about something that could have gone reasonable one in which Parliament will be involved. wrong several years before. The point about designation Equally, the process will be broadly based in terms of covers that point. Previous actions and inactions do those involved in deciding a number of matters—for not count; only actions after the point of designation example, whether the UK Government themselves count. Therefore, it does not matter if effectively the have contributed to the infraction. I take it that that EU legislation was retrospective in some way because will also apply to any infraction that might have been it is only after designation that an authority is in contributed to by the devolved Administrations where difficulties. their activities impinged on European legislation. I My noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes asked assume that that is taken care of in the arrangements whether authorities that do not have a representative that the Government have come to with the devolved body can make nominations for the independent panel. Administrations. I anticipated this question and have given it careful 1379 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1380 consideration. It is inconceivable that the Minister (2) The Secretary of State may from time to time revise and would not speak with affected parties when setting up republish the statement of policy required by this section. an independent panel. We will need the panel to be (3) A revised statement of policy may include saving or visibly independent and robust. A Minister would transitional provisions relating to the continued application for have no desire to face a legal challenge about fixing the any purpose of any provisions of an earlier published version of the statement. composition of the panel in his favour. (4) The Secretary of State must consult such persons as the The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about the Secretary of State considers appropriate before publishing, or statement of policy of the Local Government Group. revising and republishing, the statement of policy required by this Most of the heavy lifting has already been done in section. order to secure agreement to move forwards. The (5) In exercising functions under this Part in relation to an EU Local Government Group, the Greater London financial sanction which has been or may be imposed on the Authority and devolved Administrations will all be United Kingdom— invited to input as we adopt the Local Government (a) a Minister of the Crown, and Group statement into one that applies more broadly (b) a panel established under section (Establishment of across the country and to a wider range of public independent panel), authorities. I am hopeful that there will not be significant must have regard to the statement of policy most recently rewrites and we will reaffirm all its key principles: no published under this section.” surprises; proportionality and reasonableness; and working 195ZAF: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause— together. “The EU financial sanctions to which Part 2 applies (1) This Part applies to any EU financial sanction imposed on Lord Beecham: And ability to pay? the United Kingdom after the commencement of this Part, subject to subsection (2). (2) If a Minister of the Crown gives a certificate— Earl Attlee: And ability to pay—a very important (a) specifying a part of an EU financial sanction, and point. The fines can only be set at a level that will not (b) stating that this Part is not to apply to that part of the effectively bankrupt the authority. That is one of the sanction, principles in the legislation. this Part applies to that EU financial sanction as if it did not include that part. Amendment 195ZAA agreed. (3) A certificate under subsection (2)— (a) may make specific provision about the application of this Part to any of the following— Amendments 195ZAB to 195ZAD (i) the lump sum (if any) paid by the United Kingdom; Moved by Earl Attlee (ii) any periodic payment due from the United 195ZAB: Clause 31, page 30, line 5, leave out “an EU financial Kingdom under the terms of the EU financial sanction” and insert “a final” sanction before the certificate is given; and (iii) any subsequent periodic payment that may fall due 195ZAC: Clause 31, page 30, line 8, leave out “local or” from the United Kingdom under those terms; and 195ZAD: Clause 31, page 30, line 9, at end insert— (b) must be given in such form and published in such “(8) In this Part— manner as the Minister of the Crown giving it thinks fit. (a) “EU financial sanction” means a sanction consisting of (4) Any provision under subsection (3)(a)(iii) that is made in a a lump sum or penalty payment (or both) imposed by certificate under subsection (2) may be varied (including in relation the Court of Justice in Article 260(2) proceedings for an to its effect in relation to any periodic payment that has become infraction of EU law; due from the United Kingdom since the earlier certificate) by a (b) “infraction of EU law”, in relation to an EU financial further certificate under subsection (2).” sanction, means the failure to comply with a judgment 195ZAG: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause— of the Court of Justice given in proceedings under “Meaning of “public authority” and related terms Article 258 or 259 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union; and (1) This section defines various terms used in this Part. (c) “Article 260(2) proceedings” means proceedings under (2) “Public authority” means— Article 260(2) of that Treaty.” (a) a local authority to which subsection (3) applies; or (b) any other person or body which has any non-devolved Amendments 195ZAB to 195ZAD agreed. functions. (3) This subsection applies to— (a) any of the following in England— Amendments 195ZAE to 195ZAG (i) a county council, district council or London 195ZAE: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause— borough council; “Duty of the Secretary of State to issue a policy statement (ii) the Common Council of the City of London (in its (1) The Secretary of State must publish a statement of policy capacity as a local authority); with respect to— (iii) the Greater London Authority; and (a) the designation of public authorities under section (Designation of public authorities); (iv) the Council of the Isles of Scilly; (b) the imposition and variation of requirements to make (b) a council constituted under section 2 of the Local payments under this Part; and Government etc. (Scotland) Act 1994; (c) such other matters relating to the operation of the (c) a district council within the meaning of the Local provisions of this Part as the Secretary of State may Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972; think appropriate to include in the statement. (d) a council of a county or county borough in Wales. 1381 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1382

(4) References to functions are to functions of a public nature. (4) The order may, for the purposes of subsection (3)(d), (5) References to non-devolved functions are to functions describe any proceedings under Article 258 or 259 that may be which are not devolved functions. commenced by reference to the subject-matter of— (6) References to devolved functions are to— (a) a Reasoned Opinion addressed to the United Kingdom under Article 258 or 259 (as the case may be); or (a) Scottish devolved functions, that is to say functions the exercise of which would be within devolved competence (b) any other document sent to the Government of the (within the meaning of section 54 of the Scotland Act 1998); United Kingdom by the Commission of the European Union or by another member State which gives notice to (b) Northern Ireland devolved functions, that is to say the Government of the possibility of proceedings being functions which could be conferred by provision included commenced against the United Kingdom. in an Act of the Northern Ireland Assembly made without the consent of the Secretary of State (see sections 6 to 8 (5) The activities described for the purposes of subsection (2)(c) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998); or must be activities of the public authority which— (c) Welsh devolved functions, that is to say functions which (a) are carried out in the exercise of non-devolved functions are exercisable in relation to Wales and could be conferred of the public authority; and by provision falling within the legislative competence of (b) take place after the provisions of the order describing the National Assembly for Wales as defined in section the activities come into force. 108 of the Government of Wales Act 2006. (6) The following may not be designated under this section— (7) References to a public authority with mixed functions are (a) the House of Commons, the House of Lords, the Scottish to a public authority which has both non-devolved and devolved Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly or the National functions. Assembly for Wales; (8) The “appropriate national authority”, in relation to a (b) a Minister of the Crown or a United Kingdom public authority with mixed functions, means the following national government department; authority or authorities (according to whichever one or more of the following paragraphs apply to that public authority)— (c) a member of the Scottish Executive; (a) the Scottish Ministers, if the public authority has any (d) the First Minister or the deputy First Minister for Scottish devolved functions; Northern Ireland, a Northern Ireland Minister or a Northern Ireland Department; (b) the relevant Northern Ireland department, if the public authority has any Northern Ireland devolved functions; (e) a member of the Welsh Assembly Government; and (f) a court or tribunal. (c) the Welsh Ministers, if the public authority has any (7) Before making an order designating a public authority a Welsh devolved functions.” Minister of the Crown must consult— (a) the public authority concerned; and Amendments 195ZAE to 195ZAG agreed. (b) if it is a public authority with mixed functions, the appropriate national authority. (8) In sections 32 to 33 references to “acts”, in relation to a Amendment 195ZAH public authority which has been designated under this section, are Moved by Earl Attlee to acts within a description of activities covered by the designation.” Amendment 195ZAHA (to Amendment 195ZAH) not 195ZAH: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause— moved. “Designation of public authorities (1) A Minister of the Crown may by order designate a public authority for the purposes of this Part. Amendment 195ZAH agreed. (2) The order must— (a) specify the public authority by name; Amendment 195ZAJ (b) identify any EU financial sanction to which the designation applies; and Moved by Earl Attlee (c) describe the activities of the authority which are covered 195ZAJ: After Clause 31, insert the following new Clause— by the designation. “Establishment of independent panel (3) The order may identify an EU financial sanction for the (1) This section applies where— purposes of subsection (2)(b) by— (a) an EU financial sanction to which this Part applies has (a) specifying an EU financial sanction that has been been imposed by the Court of Justice; and imposed on the United Kingdom; (b) specifying any Article 260(2) proceedings that have been (b) at least one public authority has been designated under commenced and providing that the designation is to section (Designation of public authorities) and the EU apply to any EU financial sanction that may be imposed financial sanction is one to which the designation on the United Kingdom in those proceedings; applies. (2) A Minister of the Crown must establish a panel for the (c) specifying a judgment of the Court of Justice finding that purpose of carrying out any functions it may be given by or under the United Kingdom has failed to comply with an EU any provision of this Part in relation to that EU financial sanction. obligation and providing that the designation is to apply to any EU financial sanction that may be imposed on the (3) The panel must be established before any warning notice is United Kingdom for failing to comply with that judgment; given to a public authority in relation to that EU financial or sanction. (d) specifying or describing any proceedings under Article (4) The panel is to consist of one or more individuals appointed 258 or 259 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the by a Minister of the Crown who appear to a Minister of the European Union that have been or may be commenced Crown to have suitable qualifications, expertise or experience to and providing that the designation is to apply to any EU carry out their duties. financial sanction that may be imposed on the United (5) A Minister of the Crown may invite nominations for Kingdom for failing to comply with a judgment of the appointment to the panel from such organisations as a Minister Court of Justice given in those proceedings. of the Crown considers appropriate. 1383 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1384

(6) The validity of any acts of the panel are not affected by a (h) invite the authority to make representations to the panel vacancy among its members. (with any supporting evidence) about anything the (7) A Minister of the Crown may pay to a member of the authority considers relevant to the matters mentioned in panel such fees, allowances or expenses as a Minister of the section (Matters to be determined before a final notice is Crown may determine. given)(4), including its response to any representations (8) A Minister of the Crown may provide such staff, made (and any supporting evidence submitted) to the accommodation or other facilities as a Minister of the Crown panel — may consider necessary to enable the panel to carry out its (i) by a Minister of the Crown or a government functions.” department (whether in relation to matters arising from the notice or matters arising from any other Amendment 195ZAJ agreed. warning notice given to another public authority in relation to the same EU financial sanction); Amendment 195ZAK had been withdrawn from the (ii) by another public authority which has been given a Marshalled List. warning notice in relation to the same EU financial sanction; or Clause 32 : Warning notices (iii) by the appropriate national authority in response to an invitation under paragraph (j) included in the notice; and Amendments 195ZAL to 195ZAZC (j) if the authority has mixed functions, invite the Moved by Earl Attlee appropriate national authority to make representations about anything contained in or arising from the notice.” 195ZAL: Clause 32, page 30, line 11, leave out subsection (1) and insert— 195ZAR: Clause 32, page 31, line 14, at end insert “of the “(1) Before a public authority which has been designated Crown giving it” under section (Designation of public authorities) can be required 195ZAS: Clause 32, page 31, line 15, at end insert— to make any payment under this Part in respect of an EU “(6A) Before a Minister of the Crown gives a warning notice financial sanction to which the designation applies— to the authority, the Minister of the Crown must consult the (a) a Minister of the Crown must give a warning notice panel as to the contents of the notice (including in particular the under this section to the public authority; proposed procedures and timetable mentioned in subsection (3)(e) (b) the procedures set out in the warning notice (with any and (f)). changes made under subsection (7)) must be followed; (6B) If the authority has mixed functions, a Minister of the and Crown must— (c) a Minister of the Crown must determine the matters (a) consult the appropriate national authority before mentioned in section (Matters to be determined before a deciding to give a warning notice to the authority; and final notice is given)(4).” (b) give the appropriate national authority a copy of any 195ZAM: Clause 32, page 30, line 16, leave out “the Minister” warning notice the Minister of the Crown decides to and insert “a Minister of the Crown” give. 195ZAN: Clause 32, page 30, line 17, leave out from “Justice” (6C) In subsection (3)(b) the “total amount of the sanction” to “financial” in line 18 and insert “imposing the EU” means the sum of the following— 195ZAP: Clause 32, page 30, line 24, leave out “a payment (a) the amount of the lump sum (if any) due from the under this Part” and insert “payments under this Part (which may United Kingdom under the terms of the EU financial be or include ongoing payments)” sanction (disregarding any amount that falls to be 195ZAQ: Clause 32, page 30, line 25, leave out subsections (3) excluded from the lump sum by virtue of section (The to (5) and insert— EU financial sanctions to which Part 2 applies)(2)); and “(3) The warning notice must also— (b) the total amount of the periodic payments (if any) which (a) identify the EU financial sanction to which the notice have fallen due from the United Kingdom on or before a relates; day specified in the notice (disregarding any amount that falls to be excluded from any of those payments by (b) specify the total amount of that sanction (see subsection virtue of section (The EU financial sanctions to which (6C)); Part 2 applies)(2); (c) if that sanction is or includes a penalty payment, specify the amount and frequency of any periodic payments and the day specified for the purposes of paragraph (b) that fall due from the United Kingdom under the terms must be no later than the day on which the warning of the penalty payment (see subsection (6D)); notice is given to the authority. (d) set out the reasons for making the statement required by (6D) The periodic payments to be taken into account for the subsection (2); purposes of subsection (3)(c) do not include— (e) set out the proposed procedures and arrangements for (a) any periodic payment taken into account in calculating determining the matters mentioned in section (Matters the total amount of the sanction for the purposes of to be determined before a final notice is given)(4) (which subsection (3)(b); or may include arrangements for securing that matters (b) any periodic payment, or any part of a periodic arising under the notice are dealt together with matters payment, that falls to be excluded from the EU financial arising under other warning notices given to other public sanction by virtue of section (The EU financial authorities in respect of the same EU financial sanctions to which Part 2 applies)(2).” sanction); 195ZAT: Clause 32, page 31, line 16, leave out “The Minister” (f) propose a timetable for those procedures and for any and insert “A Minister of the Crown” steps to be taken by the panel or a Minister of the Crown before any requirement to make a payment can 195ZAU: Clause 32, page 31, line 17, leave out “(3)(d)(ii)” and be imposed on the authority; insert “(3)(g)” (g) invite the authority to make representations to a 195ZAV: Clause 32, page 31, line 17, leave out “subsection Minister of the Crown about the matters mentioned in (3)(b)” and insert “section (Matters to be determined before a paragraphs (e) and (f); final notice is given)(4)” 1385 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1386

195ZAX: Clause 32, page 31, line 18, after “authority”insert “— (c) whether the authority should be required to make any (a) ” payment or payments in respect of the EU financial sanction; 195ZAY: Clause 32, page 31, line 19, leave out “criteria,” (d) if so, what payment or payments the authority should 195ZAZ: Clause 32, page 31, line 20, leave out “(3)(b), (c) or make towards— (e).” and insert “(3)(e) and (f); and (i) the total amount of the sanction specified under (b) a copy of the warning notice incorporating those subsection (3)(b) of that section; and changes. (7A) A Minister of the Crown must consult the panel before (ii) any periodic payments specified under subsection (3)(c) of that section; and making any changes under subsection (7).” (e) when any such payment or payments should be made. 195ZAZA: Clause 32, Page 31, line 21, leave out “local or” (5) In determining the matters mentioned in subsection (4)(c), 195ZAZB: Clause 32, Page 31, line 22, leave out “subsection (d) and (e) the Minister of the Crown must have regard to— (3)(b)” and insert “section (Matters to be determined before a final notice is given)(4)” (a) the effect on the authority’s finances of any amount it may be required to pay and in particular, if the authority 195ZAZC: Clause 32, Page 31, line 24, at end insert— has mixed functions, the need to avoid any prejudicial “(9) In this section and section (Matters to be determined effect on the performance by the authority of its before a final notice is given) “the panel”means the panel established devolved functions; under section (Establishment of independent panel) to deal with the EU financial sanction to which the notice relates.” (b) the determination under subsection (4)(b); and (c) any other relevant considerations. (6) Before making a final decision on the matters mentioned in Amendments 195ZAL to 195ZAZC agreed. subsection (4)(c), (d) and (e), the Minister of the Crown must invite— Amendment 195ZAZD (a) representations from the authority about the potential effect on its finances and, if it has mixed functions, the Moved by Earl Attlee effect on its devolved functions of any amount it may be 195ZAZD: After Clause 32, Insert the following new Clause— required to pay; and “Matters to be determined before a final notice is given (b) if the authority has mixed functions, representations (1) This section applies where— from the appropriate national authority.” (a) a warning notice has been given to a public authority; and Amendment 195ZAZD agreed. (b) the panel has considered all representations made to it under the procedures set out in that notice. Clause 33 : EU financial sanction notices (2) The panel must make, to a Minister of the Crown, a report on the matters to which the representations made to the panel Amendments 195ZAZE and 195ZAZF relate. (3) The report— Moved by Earl Attlee (a) may be published by the panel in such manner as the 195ZAZE: Clause 33, Page 31, line 26, leave out from “give” panel thinks fit and, if not published by the panel, must to end of line 30 and insert “a final notice to a public authority be published by the Minister of the Crown to whom it is only if a Minister of the Crown has decided in accordance with made in such manner as the Minister of the Crown section (Matters to be determined before a final notice is given) to thinks fit; impose a requirement under this Part on the authority.” (b) must include recommendations as to the determination 195ZAZF: Clause 33, Page 31, line 31, leave out subsections of the matters mentioned in subsection (4)(a) and (b); (2) to (6) and insert— “(2) The final notice must— (c) if the authority has made representations to the panel about anything the authority considers relevant to any of (a) identify the EU financial sanction to which the notice the matters mentioned in paragraphs (c) to (e) of subsection relates; (4), must include recommendations as to the determination (b) specify the total amount of the sanction (see subsection of the matters mentioned in those paragraphs; and (3)) and, where relevant, the amount and frequency of (d) must include the panel’s reasons for any recommendations any future periodic payments (see subsection (4)); included in the report. (c) describe the acts of the authority that a Minister of the (4) After having had regard to the report, a Minister of the Crown has under section (Matters to be determined Crown must determine the following matters— before a final notice is given)(4) determined— (a) whether any acts of the authority did cause or contribute (i) caused or contributed to the infraction of EU law to the infraction of EU law concerned and, in relation to concerned, in relation to the total amount of the any periodic payments mentioned in subsection (3)(c) of sanction; or section 32, whether those acts have continued and will (ii) are causing or contributing to the continuing continue to do so; infraction of EU law concerned, in relation to any (b) the proportion of— other periodic payments due from the United (i) the total amount of the sanction (as specified under Kingdom; subsection (3)(b) of that section), and and set out the reasons for that determination; (ii) any periodic payments (as specified under (d) summarise the other determinations made by a Minister subsection (3)(c) of that section), of the Crown under section (Matters to be determined that, in the light of the acts of the authority which are before a final notice is given)(4) and set out the reasons determined to have had or to be having an effect for making them; mentioned in paragraph (a), is to be regarded as (e) specify the amount required to be paid by the authority reflecting the authority’s share of the responsibility towards the total amount of the sanction and when it is for the infraction of EU law concerned or, in relation to be paid (and if it is to be paid in instalments, to any such periodic payments, the continuing infraction the instalments and the date on which they become of EU law concerned; payable); 1387 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1388

(f) specify the amount to be paid towards any periodic Clause 35 : Further EU financial sanction notices payment that falls due from the United Kingdom and the time when that amount is to be paid (or, if the notice so provides the time when two or more such amounts are Amendment 195ZAZH to be paid); Moved by Earl Attlee (g) specify how and to whom payments are to be made. 195ZAZH: Clause 35, Leave out Clause 35 (3) In subsection (2)(b), (c) and (e) the “total amount of the sanction” means the sum of the following— Amendment 195ZAZH agreed. (a) the amount of the lump sum (if any) due from the United Kingdom under the terms of the EU financial sanction (disregarding any amount that falls to be excluded from the lump sum by virtue of section (The Clause 36 : Meaning of “local or public authority” EU financial sanctions to which Part 2 applies)(2)); and (b) the total amount of the periodic payments (if any) which Amendment 195ZAZJ have fallen due from the United Kingdom on or before a Moved by Earl Attlee day specified in the final notice (disregarding any amount that falls to be excluded from any of those 195ZAZJ: Clause 36, Leave out Clause 36 payments by virtue of section (The EU financial sanctions to which Part 2 applies)(2)); Amendment 195ZAZJ agreed. and the day specified for the purposes of paragraph (b) must be no later than the day on which the final notice is given to the authority. Clause 37 : Interpretation of Part: general (4) In subsection (2)(b) “future periodic payments” means periodic payments other than— Amendments 195ZAZK to 195ZAZM (a) any periodic payment taken into account in calculating the total amount of the sanction; or Moved by Earl Attlee (b) any periodic payment, or any part of a periodic 195ZAZK: Clause 37, Page 34, leave out lines 16 to 23 and payment, that falls to be excluded from the EU financial insert— sanction by virtue of section (The EU financial ““the appropriate national authority”, in relation to a public sanctions to which Part 2 applies)(2). authority with mixed functions, has the meaning given by section (5) The requirement to make payments towards periodic payments (Meaning of “public authority” and related terms)(8); falling due from the United Kingdom after the notice is given “Article 260(2) proceedings” has the meaning given by continues so long as those periodic payments continue to fall due, section 31(8)(c); unless a Minister of the Crown gives the authority a notice under “Court of Justice” means the Court of Justice of the European this subsection terminating the requirement or varying it so as to Union; make it less onerous for the authority. “EU financial sanction”has the meaning given by section 31(8)(a); (6) A notice under subsection (5) may be given, either on the “final notice” means a notice under section 33; application of the authority or without such an application, “functions”, “non-devolved functions”and “devolved functions” where a Minister of the Crown considers it appropriate in the are to be construed in accordance with section (Meaning of light of a change in the circumstances which applied when the “public authority” and related terms); final notice was given or when it was last varied (as the case may “infraction of EU law”, in relation to an EU financial sanction, be). has the meaning given by section 31(8)(b);” (7) A Minister of the Crown may— 195ZAZL: Clause 37, Page 34, line 25, at end insert— (a) consult the panel, or refer any matter relating to the ““periodic payment”, in relation to an EU financial sanction possible termination or variation of the requirement for that is or includes a penalty payment, means a payment due under its advice or recommendations; the terms of the penalty payment; (b) invite the authority to make representations; and “public authority” has the meaning given in section (Meaning of “public authority” and related terms)(2); (c) if the authority has mixed functions, invite the appropriate national authority to make representations, “public authority with mixed functions” has the meaning given by section (Meaning of “public authority” and related before deciding whether to terminate or vary the terms)(7).” requirement mentioned in subsection (5). 195ZAZLA: Clause 37, Page 34, line 25, at end insert— (8) If the authority makes an application under subsection (6) a Minister of the Crown may by notice to the authority suspend ““warning notice” means a notice under section 32.” the requirement until further notice (but this does not affect the 195ZAZM: Clause 37, Page 34, line 26, leave out subsection (2) liability to make any payment once the suspension is ended, unless the final notice is varied to have that effect).” Amendments 195ZAZK to 195ZAZM agreed.

Amendments 195ZAZE and 195ZAZF agreed. Amendments 195ZAZMZA to 195ZAZMZK Moved by Earl Attlee Clause 34 : Further warning notices 195ZAZMZA: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause— “PART Amendment 195ZAZG EU fines: Wales Power to require Welsh public authorities to make payments Moved by Earl Attlee in respect of certain EU financial sanctions 195ZAZG: Clause 34, Leave out Clause 34 (1) The Welsh Ministers may, in accordance with the provisions of this Part, require Welsh public authorities to make payments of amounts determined by the Welsh Ministers in respect of an Amendment 195ZAZG agreed. EU financial sanction to which this Part applies. 1389 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1390

(2) A requirement to make a payment under this Part— (a) specifies a part or parts of the EU financial sanction (a) may only be imposed on a Welsh public authority if— concerned, and (i) the authority has been designated under section (b) states that this Part applies only to that part, or those (Designation of Welsh public authorities); and parts, of the sanction, (ii) the EU financial sanction concerned is one to this Part applies to the sanction as if it included only that which the designation applies; and part or those parts. (3) A certificate under subsection (1)— (b) must be imposed by a notice given to the authority under section (Final notices) (referred to in this Part as a (a) may make specific provision about the application of final notice). this Part to any of the following— (3) If a final notice is registered in accordance with rules of (i) the lump sum (if any) paid by the United Kingdom; court or any practice direction, it is enforceable in the same (ii) any periodic payment due from the United manner as an order of the High Court. Kingdom under the terms of the EU financial (4) Any sums paid by a Welsh public authority under this Part sanction before the certificate is given; and are to be paid into the Welsh Consolidated Fund. (iii) any future periodic payment that may fall due from (5) In this Part— the United Kingdom under those terms; and (a) “EU financial sanction” means a sanction consisting of (b) must be given in such form and published in such a lump sum or penalty payment (or both) imposed by manner as the Welsh Ministers think fit. the Court of Justice in Article 260(2) proceedings for an (4) Any provision under subsection (3)(a)(iii) that is made in a infraction of EU law; certificate under subsection (1) may be varied (including in relation (b) “infraction of EU law”, in relation to an EU financial to its effect in relation to any periodic payment that has become sanction, means the failure to comply with a judgment due from the United Kingdom since the earlier certificate) by a of the Court of Justice given in proceedings under further certificate under subsection (1).” Article 258 or 259 of the Treaty on the Functioning of 195ZAZMZD: After Clause 37, insert the following new the European Union; and Clause— (c) “Article 260(2) proceedings” means proceedings under “Meaning of “Welsh public authority” and related terms Article 260(2) of that Treaty.” (1) Subsections (2) to (5) define various terms used in this 195ZAZMZB: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause— Part. “Duty of the Welsh Ministers to issue a policy statement (2) “Welsh public authority” means— (1) The Welsh Ministers must publish a statement of policy (a) a council of a county or county borough in Wales; or with respect to— (b) any other person or body which has any Welsh devolved (a) the designation of Welsh public authorities under functions. section (Designation of Welsh public authorities); (3) References to functions are to functions of a public nature. (b) the imposition and variation of requirements to make (4) References to Welsh devolved functions are to functions payments under this Part; and which are exercisable in relation to Wales and could be conferred (c) such other matters relating to the operation of the by provision falling within the legislative competence of the provisions of this Part as the Welsh Ministers may think National Assembly for Wales as defined in section 108 of the appropriate to include in the statement. Government of Wales Act 2006. (2) The Welsh Ministers may from time to time revise and (5) The “appropriate national authority”, in relation to a republish the statement of policy required by this section. Welsh public authority with any functions other than Welsh devolved functions, means the following national authority or (3) A revised statement of policy may include saving or authorities (according to whichever one or more of the following transitional provisions relating to the continued application for paragraphs apply to that Welsh public authority)— any purpose of any provisions of an earlier published version of the statement. (a) a Minister of the Crown, if the Welsh public authority (4) The Welsh Ministers must consult such persons as the has any functions which are not devolved functions; Welsh Ministers consider appropriate before publishing, or revising (b) the Scottish Ministers, if the Welsh public authority has and republishing, the statement of policy required by this section. any Scottish devolved functions; and (5) In exercising functions under this Part in relation to an EU (c) the relevant Northern Ireland Department, if the Welsh financial sanction which has been or may be imposed on the public authority has any Northern Ireland devolved United Kingdom— functions. (a) the Welsh Ministers, and (6) In subsection (5)(a) “devolved functions” means— (b) a panel established under section (Establishment of (a) Welsh devolved functions; independent panel (No.2)), (b) Scottish devolved functions; or must have regard to the statement of policy most recently (c) Northern Ireland devolved functions. published under this section.” (7) In subsections (5) and (6)— 195ZAZMZC: After Clause 37, insert the following new “Northern Ireland devolved functions” means functions which Clause— could be conferred by provision included in an Act of the Northern “The EU financial sanctions to which Part (EU fines: Wales) Ireland Assembly made without the consent of the Secretary of applies State (see sections 6 to 8 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998); (1) This Part applies to an EU financial sanction imposed on “Scottish devolved functions” means functions the exercise of the United Kingdom if— which would be within devolved competence (within the meaning (a) the sanction is imposed after the commencement of this of section 54 of the Scotland Act 1998).” Part, and 195ZAZMZE: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause— (b) the Welsh Ministers certify that this Part applies to the “Designation of Welsh public authorities sanction. (1) The Welsh Ministers may by order designate a Welsh (2) If a certificate under subsection (1)— public authority for the purposes of this Part. 1391 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1392

(2) The order must— (2) The Welsh Ministers must establish a panel for the purpose (a) specify the Welsh public authority by name; of carrying out any functions it may be given by or under any provision of this Part in relation to that EU financial sanction. (b) identify any EU financial sanction to which the (3) The panel must be established before any warning notice is designation applies; and given to a Welsh public authority in relation to that EU financial (c) describe the activities of the authority which are covered sanction. by the designation. (4) The panel is to consist of one or more individuals appointed (3) The order may identify an EU financial sanction for the by the Welsh Ministers who appear to the Welsh Ministers to have purposes of subsection (2)(b) by— suitable qualifications, expertise or experience to carry out their (a) specifying an EU financial sanction that has been duties. imposed on the United Kingdom; (5) The Welsh Ministers may invite nominations for appointment (b) specifying any Article 260(2) proceedings that have been to the panel from such organisations as the Welsh Ministers commenced and providing that the designation is to consider appropriate. apply to any EU financial sanction that may be imposed (6) The validity of any acts of the panel are not affected by a on the United Kingdom in those proceedings; vacancy among its members. (c) specifying a judgment of the Court of Justice finding (7) The Welsh Ministers may pay to a member of the panel that the United Kingdom has failed to comply with an such fees, allowances or expenses as the Welsh Ministers may EU obligation and providing that the designation is to determine. apply to any EU financial sanction that may be imposed (8) The Welsh Ministers may provide such staff, accommodation on the United Kingdom for failing to comply with that or other facilities as the Welsh Ministers may consider necessary judgment; or to enable the panel to carry out its functions.” (d) specifying or describing any proceedings under Article 258 195ZAZMZG: After Clause 37, insert the following new or 259 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Clause— Union that have been or may be commenced and providing “Warning notices that the designation is to apply to any EU financial (1) Before a Welsh public authority which has been designated sanction that may be imposed on the United Kingdom under section (Designation of Welsh public authorities) can be for failing to comply with a judgment of the Court of required to make any payment under this Part in respect of an EU Justice given in those proceedings. financial sanction to which the designation applies— (4) The order may, for the purposes of subsection (3)(d), (a) the Welsh Ministers must give a warning notice under describe any proceedings under Article 258 or 259 that may be this section to the authority; commenced by reference to the subject-matter of— (b) the procedures set out in the warning notice (with any (a) a Reasoned Opinion addressed to the United Kingdom changes made under subsection (9)) must be followed; under Article 258 or 259 (as the case may be); or and (b) any other document sent to the Government of the (c) the Welsh Ministers must determine the matters United Kingdom by the Commission of the European mentioned in section (Matters to be determined before a Union or by another member State which gives notice to final notice is given (No. 2))(4). the Government of the possibility of proceedings being commenced against the United Kingdom. (2) A warning notice is a notice stating that the Welsh Ministers, having regard to the judgment of the Court of Justice imposing (5) The activities described for the purposes of subsection the EU financial sanction, believe— (2)(c) must be activities of the Welsh public authority which— (a) that acts of the authority may have caused or (a) are carried out in the exercise of Welsh devolved contributed to the infraction of EU law for which the functions of the authority; and EU financial sanction was imposed; and (b) take place after the provisions of the order describing (b) that, if acts of the authority did cause or contribute to the activities come into force. that infraction of EU law, it would be appropriate to (6) The following may not be designated under this section— consider requiring the authority to make payments (a) the National Assembly for Wales; under this Part (which may be or include ongoing (b) a Minister of the Crown or a United Kingdom payments) in respect of that financial sanction. government department; (3) The warning notice must also— (c) a member of the Welsh Assembly Government; (a) identify the EU financial sanction to which the notice relates; (d) a court or tribunal. (7) Before making an order designating a Welsh public authority (b) specify the total amount of that sanction (see subsection the Welsh Ministers must consult— (7)); (a) the authority concerned; and (c) if that sanction is or includes a penalty payment, specify the amount and frequency of any periodic payments (b) if the authority concerned has any functions other than that fall due from the United Kingdom under the terms Welsh devolved functions, the appropriate national of the penalty payment (see subsection (8)); authority. (d) set out the reasons for making the statement required by (8) In sections (Warning notices) to (Final notices) references subsection (2); to “acts”, in relation to a Welsh public authority which has been designated under this section, are to acts within a description of (e) set out the proposed procedures and arrangements for activities covered by the designation.” determining the matters mentioned in section (Matters to 195ZAZMZF: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause— be determined before a final notice is given (No. 2))(4) (which may include arrangements for securing that matters “Establishment of independent panel (No. 2) arising under the notice are dealt together with matters (1) This section applies where— arising under other warning notices given to other Welsh (a) an EU financial sanction to which this Part applies has public authorities in respect of the same EU financial been imposed by the Court of Justice; and sanction); (b) at least one Welsh public authority has been designated (f) propose a timetable for those procedures and for any under section (Designation of Welsh public authorities) steps to be taken by the panel or the Welsh Ministers and the EU financial sanction is one to which the before any requirement to make a payment can be designation applies. imposed on the authority; 1393 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1394

(g) invite the authority to make representations to the Welsh (b) a copy of the warning notice incorporating those Ministers about the matters mentioned in paragraphs (e) changes. and (f); (10) The Welsh Ministers must consult the panel before making (h) invite the authority to make representations to the panel any changes under subsection (9). (with any supporting evidence) about anything the authority (11) A warning notice given to a Welsh public authority may considers relevant to the matters mentioned in section be withdrawn at any time before the matters mentioned in section (Matters to be determined before a final notice is given (Matters to be determined before a final notice is given (No.2))(4) (No. 2))(4), including its response to any representations are determined, but this does not prevent another warning notice made (and any supporting evidence submitted) to the being given to the authority in relation to the same EU financial panel — sanction. (i) by the Welsh Ministers (whether in relation to matters (12) In this section and section (Matters to be determined arising from the notice or matters arising from any before a final notice is given (No.2)) “the panel” means the panel other warning notice given to another Welsh public established under section (Establishment of independent panel authority in relation to the same EU financial sanction); (No.2)) to deal with the EU financial sanction to which the notice (ii) by another Welsh public authority which has been relates.” given a warning notice in relation to the same EU 195ZAZMZH: After Clause 37, insert the following new financial sanction; or Clause— (iii) by the appropriate national authority in response “Matters to be determined before a final notice is given to an invitation under paragraph (j) included in the (No. 2) notice; and (1) This section applies where— (j) if the authority has any functions other than Welsh devolved functions, invite the appropriate national authority (a) a warning notice has been given to a Welsh public to make representations about anything contained in or authority; and arising from the notice. (b) the panel has considered all representations made to it (4) The warning notice may contain such other information as under the procedures set out in that notice. the Welsh Ministers consider appropriate. (2) The panel must make a report to the Welsh Ministers on (5) Before giving a warning notice to the authority, the Welsh the matters to which the representations made to the panel relate. Ministers must consult the panel as to the contents of the notice (3) The report— (including in particular the proposed procedures and timetable (a) may be published by the panel in such manner as the mentioned in subsection (3)(e) and (f)). panel thinks fit and, if not published by the panel, must (6) If the authority has any functions other than Welsh be published by the Welsh Ministers in such manner as devolved functions, the Welsh Ministers must— they think fit; (a) consult the appropriate national authority before (b) must include recommendations as to the determination deciding to give a warning notice to the authority; and of the matters mentioned in subsection (4)(a) and (b); (b) give the appropriate national authority a copy of any (c) if the authority has made representations to the panel warning notice the Welsh Ministers decide to give. about anything the authority considers relevant to any of (7) In subsection (3)(b) the “total amount of the sanction” the matters mentioned in paragraphs (c) to (e) of subsection means the sum of the following— (4), must include recommendations as to the determination of the matters mentioned in those paragraphs; and (a) the amount of the lump sum (if any) due from the United Kingdom under the terms of the EU financial (d) must include the panel’s reasons for any recommendations sanction (disregarding any amount that falls to be included in the report. excluded from the lump sum by virtue of section (The (4) After having had regard to the report, the Welsh Ministers EU financial sanctions to which Part (EU fines: Wales) must determine the following matters— applies)(2)); and (a) whether any acts of the authority did cause or contribute (b) the total amount of the periodic payments (if any) which to the infraction of EU law concerned and, in relation to have fallen due from the United Kingdom on or before a any periodic payments mentioned in subsection (3)(c) of day specified in the notice (disregarding any amount that section (Warning notices), whether those acts have falls to be excluded from any of those payments by continued and will continue to do so; virtue of section (The EU financial sanctions to which (b) the proportion of— Part (EU fines: Wales) applies)(2)); (i) the total amount of the sanction (as specified under and the day specified for the purposes of paragraph (b) subsection (3)(b) of that section), and must be no later than the day on which the warning notice is given to the authority. (ii) any periodic payments (as specified under subsection (3)(c) of that section), (8) The periodic payments to be taken into account for the purposes of subsection (3)(c) do not include— that, in the light of the acts of the authority which are determined to have had or to be having an effect (a) any periodic payment taken into account in calculating mentioned in paragraph (a), is to be regarded as the total amount of the sanction for the purposes of reflecting the authority’s share of the responsibility subsection (3)(b); or for the infraction of EU law concerned or, in relation (b) any periodic payment, or any part of a periodic to any such periodic payments, the continuing infraction payment, that falls to be excluded from the EU financial of EU law concerned; sanction by virtue of section (The EU financial (c) whether the authority should be required to make any sanctions to which Part (EU fines: Wales) applies)(2). payment or payments in respect of the EU financial (9) The Welsh Ministers may, after considering any representations sanction; made by the authority under subsection (3)(g) but before the matters mentioned in section (Matters to be determined before a (d) if so, what payment or payments the authority should final notice is given (No. 2))(4) are determined, give the authority— make towards— (a) a notice stating any changes that the Welsh Ministers (i) the total amount of the sanction specified under have decided to make to the procedures or timetable as subsection (3)(b) of that section; and originally set out in the warning notice under subsection (ii) any periodic payments specified under (3)(e) and (f); and subsection (3)(c) of that section; and 1395 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1396

(e) when any such payment or payments should be made. and the day specified for the purposes of paragraph (b) (5) In determining the matters mentioned in subsection (4)(c), must be no later than the day on which the final notice is (d) and (e) the Welsh Ministers must have regard to— given to the authority. (a) the effect on the authority’s finances of any amount it (4) In subsection (2)(b) “future periodic payments” means may be required to pay and in particular, if the authority periodic payments other than— has any functions other than Welsh devolved functions, (a) any periodic payment taken into account in calculating the need to avoid any prejudicial effect on the performance the total amount of the sanction; or by the authority of those other functions; (b) any periodic payment, or any part of a periodic payment, (b) the determination under subsection (4)(b); and that falls to be excluded from the EU financial sanction (c) any other relevant considerations. by virtue of section (The EU financial sanctions to which (6) Before making a final decision on the matters mentioned in Part (EU fines: Wales) applies)(2). subsection (4)(c), (d) and (e), the Welsh Ministers must invite— (5) The requirement to make payments towards periodic payments (a) representations from the authority about the potential falling due from the United Kingdom after the notice is given effect on its finances and, if it has any functions other continues so long as those periodic payments continue to fall due, than Welsh devolved functions, the effect on those other unless the Welsh Ministers give the authority a notice under this functions of any amount it may be required to pay; and subsection terminating the requirement or varying it so as to (b) if the authority has any functions other than Welsh make it less onerous for the authority. devolved functions, representations from the appropriate (6) A notice under subsection (5) may be given, either on the national authority.” application of the authority or without such an application, 195ZAZMZJ: After Clause 37, insert the following new Clause— where the Welsh Ministers consider it appropriate in the light of a change in the circumstances which applied when the final notice “Final notices was given or when it was last varied (as the case may be). (1) The Welsh Ministers may give a final notice to a Welsh public authority only if they have decided in accordance with (7) The Welsh Ministers may— section (Matters to be determined before a final notice is given (a) consult the panel, or refer any matter relating to the (No.2)) to impose a requirement under this Part on the authority. possible termination or variation of the requirement for (2) The final notice must— its advice or recommendations; (a) identify the EU financial sanction to which the notice (b) invite the authority to make representations; and relates; (c) if the authority has any functions other than Welsh (b) specify the total amount of the sanction (see subsection devolved functions, invite the appropriate national authority (3)) and, where relevant, the amount and frequency of to make representations, any future periodic payments (see subsection (4)); before deciding whether to terminate or vary the (c) describe the acts of the authority that the Welsh requirement mentioned in subsection (5). Ministers have under section (Matters to be determined before a final notice is given (No.2))(4) determined— (8) If the authority makes an application under subsection (6) the Welsh Ministers may by notice to the authority suspend the (i) caused or contributed to the infraction of EU law requirement until further notice (but this does not affect the concerned, in relation to the total amount of the liability to make any payment once the suspension is ended, sanction; or unless the final notice is varied to have that effect).” (ii) are causing or contributing to the continuing infraction 195ZAZMZK: After Clause 37, insert the following new of EU law concerned, in relation to any other Clause— periodic payments due from the United Kingdom; “Interpretation of Part: general and set out the reasons for that determination; (d) summarise the other determinations made by the Welsh In this Part— Ministers under section (Matters to be determined “act” includes omission; before a final notice is given (No.2))(4) and set out the “the appropriate national authority”, in relation to a Welsh reasons for making them; public authority with any functions other than Welsh devolved (e) specify the amount required to be paid by the authority functions, has the meaning given by section (Meaning of “Welsh towards the total amount of the sanction and when it is public authority” and related terms)(5); to be paid (and if it is to be paid in instalments, the “Article 260(2) proceedings” has the meaning given by section instalments and the date on which they become payable); (Power to require Welsh public authorities to make payments in (f) specify the amount to be paid towards any periodic respect of certain EU financial sanctions)(5)(c); payment that falls due from the United Kingdom and “Court of Justice” means the Court of Justice of the European the time when that amount is to be paid (or, if the notice Union; so provides, the time when two or more such amounts are to be paid); “EU financial sanction” has the meaning given by section (Power to require Welsh public authorities to make payments in (g) specify how and to whom payments are to be made. respect of certain EU financial sanctions)(5)(a); (3) In subsection (2)(b), (c) and (e) the “total amount of the “final notice” means a notice under section (Final notices); sanction” means the sum of the following— “functions” and “Welsh devolved functions” are to be construed (a) the amount of the lump sum (if any) due from the United in accordance with section (Meaning of “Welsh public authority” Kingdom under the terms of the EU financial sanction and related terms)(3) and (4); (disregarding any amount that falls to be excluded from the lump sum by virtue of section (The EU financial “infraction of EU law”, in relation to an EU financial sanction, sanctions to which Part (EU fines: Wales) applies)(2)); has the meaning given by section (Power to require Welsh public and authorities to make payments in respect of certain EU financial sanctions)(5)(b); (b) the total amount of the periodic payments (if any) which have fallen due from the United Kingdom on or before a “Minister of the Crown” has the same meaning as in the day specified in the final notice (disregarding any amount Ministers of the Crown Act 1975; that falls to be excluded from any of those payments by “periodic payment”, in relation to an EU financial sanction virtue of section (The EU financial sanctions to which that is or includes a penalty payment, means a payment due under Part (EU fines: Wales) applies)(2)); the terms of the penalty payment; 1397 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1398

“warning notice” means a notice under section (Warning and of course the demand for accommodation is notices); considerable. Just recently walking around the ward I “Welsh public authority” has the meaning given in section represent I noticed a number of properties that have (Meaning of “Welsh public authority” and related terms)(2).” been empty for some years. They are not in particularly Amendments 195ZAZMZA to 195ZAZMZK agreed. good condition but not sufficiently dangerous to allow the local authority to take steps. It would certainly be an incentive for landlords to let those properties Amendment 195ZAZMA and bring them into use for the benefit of the whole Moved by Lord Lucas area if a similar principle were adopted for residential properties as the noble Lord proposes for commercial 195ZAZMA: After Clause 41, Insert the following new Clause— properties. I hope the Government will look “Empty rates sympathetically on that aspect of it and endorse the In section 45 of the Local Government and Finance noble Lord’s amendment. Act 1988 (unoccupied hereditaments: liability) in subsection 4A for “one” substitute “or equal to one fifth”, and for “prescribed” substitute “chosen in each Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I am slightly particular case by the Local Authority”.” concerned by this amendment as I think there is an international problem occurring of people buying things Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am not at all sure that this online to such an extent—I heard this in Australia is the right solution to the problem but I am sure the while I was there and I believe it is the same everywhere— problem is there and I very much hope this Bill will that people are closing up small shops because there is deal with it. When one is looking at the application of simply no way they can afford to compete with online localism to urban environments and to giving local purchases. I do not know what will happen in these communities some degree of control and influence instances. What will local authorities do? Will the over what is happening, one of the great problems— people who own the shops be encouraged to convert certainly a problem in the bit of London I lodge in them into residential accommodation or would it be during the week which is Lavender Hill—is empty considered very damaging to the whole high street properties. They are principally retail properties where suddenly to find that instead of shops in continuity in the owners appear to have decided that they would a row suddenly two or three were houses? In the past rather they went empty than accept a lower rent and there were lots of little shops that were once houses. have some kind of commercial activity within them. Would we be prepared to see the reverse of that My view is that these owners should pay the full happening? cost they are inflicting on the community by following I think it is a very complicated issue, and, if the that course of action. By allowing the street to appear landlord simply cannot get a tenant now, what does he derelict and empty they reduce the trade for other do? Does he allow the property to fall down? I do not businesses. They reduce the prosperity of the area. know what the answer is, particularly with the shop They reduce the opportunity for jobs for people who premises. live in the area. It is a thoroughly delinquent behaviour. It is something that costs the rest of the community Lord Kennedy of Southwark: The amendment moved dear. I do not believe that the current arrangements by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raises a significant that merely allow for an ordinary empty rate are at all issue. I can clearly see the point that he is making. If satisfactory. If we are going to have in the future the the Government are not minded to accept it, I hope opportunity to create a neighbourhood in Lavender that the noble Lord will be able to give us some insight Hill, one of the first things we will wish to tackle is all into the Government’s thinking on how they intend to the empty shops. We will not wish to do it by trying to deal with this problem. My noble friend Lord Beecham persuade people to pay the vast rents which the street raised a significant point about residential property, used to be able to command in the days when it was which is probably just as important as the point about prosperous which was now some long while ago—it commercial property. was 10 or 15 years ago. Some of these properties have stood empty since then. We will need some way of Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I thank noble battening on to these landlords and making them Lords who have spoken on this amendment, particularly realise that although it is their property and theirs to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, who moved it. The do what they do with it, if they choose to leave it amendment would give authorities the power to reduce empty and derelict they should pay the community the liability for empty property rates. Our ability to something in respect of the costs they are causing it by take action on empty property rates needs to be balanced their actions. I beg to move. against the costs involved, the targeted support that we already provide on business rates and the overriding Lord Beecham: My Lords, the noble Lord has drawn need to reduce public expenditure and support the attention to a significant problem with commercial economy generally by reducing the deficit. This property but the same principle can apply to residential Government have already doubled small business rate property, particularly in the private rented sector. There relief for two years, which will benefit about half a are a significant number of homes left empty—it runs million rate payers, with about one-third of a million into some hundreds of thousands. In urban areas in paying no rates at all for that period. We are also particular it is very often private rented properties that taking powers through this Bill to waive £175 million are left unoccupied. They are as much a blight on the of backdated business rates demands levied on businesses, local neighbourhood as empty commercial properties including some in ports. 1399 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1400

Unfortunately, in taking these matters into Lord Shutt of Greetland: I will endeavour to look at consideration, support for empty property rate them, although I believe that they were on a different measures is currently simply unaffordable. While the matter. Nevertheless, in the interests of moving forward, Government have no immediate plans for reform, I am sure that we will be able to look at that too. we are certainly keeping this matter under review. However, the Bill does give local authorities powers to 6.45 pm provide discounts on business rates bills as they see fit, provided they fund the relief themselves. So authorities Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am very grateful to my will be able to reduce bills in the way suggested by the noble friend. I apologise for being so confusing in the amendment. preparation of my amendment. I say this as an aside, in case anyone from the House authorities is listening I hope that the noble Lord is willing to withdraw in, it is high time that statutes in force were made the amendment, but I assure him that the matter is easily available to Peers who wish to table amendments. under review. It is quite interesting, because I have They are in the Library, but that is no use if you within the papers here a note about the reliefs. In happen to be working from outside. I imagine that I 2007-08, 2008-09, 2009-10 and 2010-11, changes were picked up the statute as it was on the internet and have made. been tripped up by that and have confused my noble friend and his officials. I apologise for that. But to Lord Lucas: My Lords, can I just point out to my have a proper set of statutes in force available over the noble friend that the effect of my amendment is not to internet would be a bonus. reduce business rates but to multiply them by five As the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, understood, this times, resulting in greatly increased revenue to the amendment is clearly about trying to allow neighbourhoods local authority and the Exchequer. I am afraid that in through referenda to encourage their local councils as some way his briefing is somewhat wide of the mark. I part of a plan to regenerate a neighbourhood to put a should be delighted if he would write to me when his squeeze on landlords to bring empty properties back officials have been able to revise their mathematics. As into use. I entirely agree with what the noble Lord, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, clearly understands, Lord Beecham, said. Flats over shops are certainly a this is about increasing the rates and increasing government significant problem round where we are; there are just revenue. I would hate it to be thought that I was in any empty properties at a time when accommodation is way undermining the stalwart efforts of my right short. There has to be some way in which to encourage honourable friend the Chancellor to reduce the deficit. these properties back into use, some backstop that allows a local authority to get tough if a landlord will Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I am delighted not be reasonable about these things. To my mind, that that the noble Lord has made those comments. I think particularly applies to street frontage property, when that the officials had difficulties with this, and quite the fact that it is empty is apparent to everybody and it frankly so did I. I sought out the Local Government becomes a blight on the other people trying to do Finance Act 1998, but I am afraid that it has been business. To answer the point made by my noble friend, amended, because the reference that he makes is not they can be converted into offices, or starter units for there. Immediately before speaking, I tried to check young businesses, which again are in short supply in this myself, because I had some doubt about this. The Lavender Hill, and would be most welcome if we went whole area is under review, as it seems to have been for down that route. four years on the trot, because Chancellors and local I know that this is a complicated area and I am not government people have changed the position. So it is at all sure that empty rates is the way in which to still the fact that the area is under review, but it is one attack it, but I would be very grateful for a letter from that does impact on the economy. Having heard what my noble friend to say how the Government intend to the noble Lord said in his latter remarks, clearly, we enable neighbourhoods to tackle this problem under will need to reflect further. But I cannot make any the general heading of localism. But for now, I beg commitments at this stage. Perhaps a few tender words leave to withdraw the amendment. here and there might help us to understand exactly what he is about. Amendment 195ZAZMA withdrawn. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Can the Minister give the House an indication that he will come back before Amendment 195ZAZMAA Third Reading? I would not want the noble Lord, Moved by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Lucas, to have to come back again on Third Reading 195ZAZMAA: Before Clause 42, Insert the following new on this matter. Clause— “Youth councils Lord Shutt of Greetland: I will certainly use my best (1) Every local authority must establish a council representing the interests of young people within the authority’s area, to be endeavours to see that we can write to the noble Lord known as a “youth council”. and that copies are placed in the Library so that other (2) A local authority must— noble Lords with an interest can see the results of that. (a) consult the relevant youth council of any authority proposal that may affect the youth council or young Lord Beecham: Can the Minister also consider the people in the community; points that I made in addition to those made by the (b) provide an opportunity for the youth council to respond noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for Third Reading? to the proposal; and 1401 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1402

(c) take the views of the youth council into account when cannot accept the amendment, I should be very grateful making a decision about the proposal. for an opportunity to discuss with the Minister and (3) Subsection (2) does not affect the ability of the youth her officials how we can better include young people council to make a properly constituted petition to the local in the decision-making process in the future. Of course authority. I understand that at the moment the voting age is 18. (4) At least 60 per cent of the members of the youth council Personally, I would argue on other occasions that that must be under the age of 18 years.” should be reduced to 16. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I rise to move and speak to Amendment 195ZAZMAA. Lord Greaves: Hear, hear. I am doing some work at the moment on political engagement of young people and this amendment is Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, we will the result of meetings that I have had with hundreds of have that discussion at a later date. For the moment, young people up and down the country and with we have a voting age of 18. Notwithstanding that fact, people who are working or have been working in I think that it is very important that young people who youth services—that is to say, statutory youth services, are younger than 18 should have their views properly which are fast diminishing, charities, and organisations assessed and that they should have an opportunity to such as Girlguiding UK, of which I am a very proud have proper discussions with the people who are taking member. What happens to young people and the services the important decisions in councils and other bodies that they receive is, of course, crucial to the well-being that so profoundly affect their lives. of this country and the future well-being of individuals There is another amendment in this group that and our society. We have the most fantastic young relates to petitions, but I understand that there may be people in our country, who often get a very bad press some other movement from the Government on thanks to a very small minority of them. Most young petitions and referendums. If, however, the current people in this country are full of energy and have real proposals from the Government stand, I would determination and a real desire to contribute to their argue that young people themselves should have an communities. Sometimes, however, they need a bit of opportunity to petition the Government as outlined in help. At the moment, rather than being helped, a lot Amendment 195ZAZNZA. I beg to move. of young people in our society are suffering disproportionately from the cuts, which we believe are Lord Tope: My Lords, if the purpose of this too fast and too deep. In my part of the country, in amendment was to enable a short debate on the political Gloucestershire, the area that I know best, youth engagement of young people, I have no hesitation services have been decimated. While volunteers are whatever in supporting that intention. If it is the doing an extraordinary job, volunteers are not enough. intention to prescribe how local authorities should do Young people in our country cannot just depend on it—and I do not think that it is—it has no place at all volunteers. They need properly trained youth workers in a localism Bill. However, I am assuming it is the as well. The Minister may well say that it is up to local former, and indeed I think that the noble Baroness, in authorities how they spend their money. I think that is moving the amendment, said it was a suggestion—in a bit of a smokescreen, but that is by the by. fact, a very good suggestion. I want briefly to echo the We talk about rights and responsibilities of young importance of the political engagement of young people people and the fact that they need to get that balance in the community. I can only speak with direct experience right from a very young age. We all talk about the need of my own local authority, where our youth parliament to engage our young people more in our communities, plays a very active role, and which in its elections last and we want to nurture democracy by ensuring that year had almost the highest turnout in the whole of more and more young people vote and perhaps even London. That is in a relatively small London borough become councillors or MPs. One of the best ways to where young people play an active part. Similarly, we engage young people is to include them and to make have young ambassadors who play a very active part them part of the democratic processes in which we not in matters particularly for young people but in the engage, including the decision-making process. At the whole life of the borough, in issues that are of importance moment young people, if they are under the age of 18, to people of all ages. are excluded from the decision-making processes of Therefore I wholly support and encourage the intention councils despite the fact that so many decisions taken of this debate. It is important not just that young by local councils are extremely important for those people are listened to but that what they are saying is young people and have a huge impact on their lives. I heard and acted on. I can give another example of a am not just talking about youth services. For example, project in which I am involved with a new building. We when a decision is taken to cut bus services—sometimes had the young ambassadors round to carry out a very for good reasons and sometimes I would question the detailed and thorough inspection of it. They raised a reasons—it has a huge impact on the ability of young whole load of points, both about the physical nature people to go to college or to sixth form college, and of the building and particularly about the programmes indeed to have a social life. Consequently those young that were being run there. They made a report to us, I people cannot reach their full potential. ensured that the management board gave them a full I have tabled my amendment because I think it is written response and they came back six months later very important that young people should have some to ensure that it was being acted on. That is the sort of means of engaging in the decision-making process. engagement that we want, not the rather patronising This is just one suggestion, on which I hope the one where we say, “Yes, of course, that’s very good”, Government will look favourably. However, if they and then do nothing whatever about it. Real engagement 1403 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1404 means not that we are listening but that we are hearing she will—that we will be able to recognise that this is and that we are acting on their suggestions. To enable not actually part of a mandate from the Government me to make that point, I am grateful to the noble in a localism Bill, as the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said. Baroness for the amendment. I hope very much that It is merely an opportunity for us to encourage she will not press it, because I do not think that it is for local authorities throughout the country to address us, in a localism Bill, to be prescribing to local authorities the issue of young people perhaps a little more how they should act on this issue; rather it is for us to imaginatively than some of them have done—although encourage all local authorities to act on it and to do it by no means all. effectively. 7pm Lord Lucas: My Lords, in contrast to some of my Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I thank the noble noble friends, I am very much in favour of the involvement Baroness for introducing that interesting short debate of young people in democracy and in giving them a on this matter. I have a lot of sympathy with what she formal role in it. has to say about the importance of engaging young people in what is going on. If she will forgive me Lord Cormack: I hope my noble friend will not saying so, though, her amendments are not necessary, mind my pointing out that one can be wholly in favour and I will tell her why. of young people being involved in democracy without necessarily believing that the age of 16 should be the The amendment would ask all local authorities to voting age. establish a youth council and prescribe in some detail how that youth council should be engaged with. As Lord Lucas: My Lords, of course I believe always in my noble friend Lord Tope has said, there are already the wisdom of my noble friend, even if my own views youth councils and youth parliaments in many local differ. I note that the Government, in their wisdom, authorities. Indeed, I recall that the former Lord always intend to legislate that people of any age may Speaker—maybe the current Lord Speaker will do the be members of a neighbourhood forum; so young same—has welcomed young people into this Chamber people may well take part in the formation of policy for a youth parliament to debate things about democracy. for their area. I regret that the age at which they may It is understood across Government that it is vital to vote on it remains 18. As noble Lords may remember engage young people in what is going to be their from Committee, I would like to see it a good deal future. I do not think that there will be any disagreement lower. I think that when you get down to a very small about that. area, young people have a much more active and early The Government are already committed to these understanding of what needs to be done in a locality issues. The Department for Education has recently than perhaps they do when you are trying to balance awarded grant funding of £850,000 to the British the affairs of a whole local authority, let alone a Youth Council for 2011-13 to provide support for country. However, I celebrate the wisdom of the noble young people’s voice and involvement in decision-making Baroness in not putting an age limit on participation at both local and national level in England. In addition, in neighbourhood forums, and I very much hope that there is already a statutory duty on local authorities to she will encourage other ways of allowing young people provide sufficient educational and recreational activities to participate in neighbourhood referenda and other for 13 to 19 year-olds, which includes a duty to take aspects of localism. steps to ascertain the views of young persons on services and facilities and to secure that the views of Lord Cormack: My Lords, I am provoked into qualifying young persons in the authority’s area are making a few remarks. I entirely agree with the noble taken into account. Lord, Lord Tope, that this amendment does not have a The Department for Education will be consulting place in the Localism Bill. However, like him, I am shortly with a view to producing new strategic guidance grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for raising on this duty, which will reflect the findings of the this issue. I think we must all accept that we have not recent Ofsted report on the commissioning of youth engaged our young people sufficiently. When we came services, so there is a great commitment not only to the back for one day after those dreadful riots, I made the provision of these services but to young people’s voice point that perhaps we should consider some form of being heard. Those findings include the recommendation citizenship ceremony for all young people—I believe that rather than prescribing from the centre which at the age of 18, although perhaps it could be 16—where services should be provided and to what level, the they proclaim recognition of their role, their responsibilities Government should look to local authorities to publish and their allegiance. It would demand reciprocation their own local offer of services to young people. on our part that they have a greater opportunity to It is for that reason that, while I agree with much of participate. what the noble Baroness has said, I am not able or I do not believe and never have believed that the age minded to accept the amendment. As other noble of 16 is the right age to vote, but that does not Lords have said, it does not fit neatly into this legislation invalidate the general point that I am seeking to make at this rather late stage. We do not want to be prescriptive and indeed that the noble Baroness was seeking to about how local authorities provide services for young make in her brief remarks. I will make my remarks people, nor about how local authorities engage them equally brief. I hope that when my noble friend the in decision-making or how they create space for young Minister comes to reply, she will at least be able to people to have a collective voice. I reiterate that I know indicate a general sympathy, just as I hope—when the that a great many authorities already do this and value noble Baroness withdraws her amendment, as I trust the views that they get. 1405 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1406

Lord Phillips of Sudbury: I apologise for interrupting The noble Lord, Lord Tope, was right that so often the Minister’s flow but, as she enumerates what the we claim that we are going to listen to what people say, Government are doing to support citizenship, I cannot especially young people, but do not act upon it. We resist asking her whether she will make powerful have to exhort decision-makers at every level, including representations to her colleagues in government not to at local council level, to take into account what young take citizenship out of the compulsory secondary people are saying. curriculum, as is now being anticipated. I am afraid that I have to return to a political point. I realise that the Government want to do their utmost Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I think I hear what to consult young people about the services that they my noble friend has to say. I will note that what he says want in their local areas, but the fact is that the cuts is recorded. It is not a matter for my department, are such that there is no longer any money for this to unfortunately, but I am sure that his views will be well be carried out by local authorities. Young people have received. needs that they can and do identify, but the answer Regarding petitions, it is not right to make young that comes from local councils is, “We’re afraid we people a special case in the way that has been proposed. can’t do this because the money simply isn’t there”. As If young people, then why not retired people, people I said earlier, quite often local councils turn to charities from ethnic minorities or those with disabilities? It is and volunteers. I salute the fantastic work done by difficult to group people and say that they can apply charities and volunteers, but we cannot rely on them for a referendum. Young people and youth councils alone. We have to have a proper youth service, properly will, rightly, have every right to campaign and get financed up and down the country. involved in local democracy, as any other individual or I plead with the Minister to go back to her officials group does. and try to ensure that local authorities take youth The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, rightly drew attention services into account when they are looking at their to the fact that, while they would not be able to vote in budgets for next year. Youthservices are too easily cut. a referendum on a neighbourhood plan, young people At the moment, young people in our society are often will be encouraged to be involved in the formation of not heard when they are making their arguments to what will affect their lives from what is happening people in authority, and I plead with the Minister to round about. try to ensure that local authorities listen both to the arguments put by young people and to their needs in I hope that, with that, the noble Baroness will be our society. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the content to withdraw her amendment, on the amendment. understanding that there is a real commitment to understanding and engaging young people not only at Amendment 195ZAZMAA withdrawn. national level but across the local authorities.

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful Clause 42 : Duty to hold local referendum to the Minister for her response and to all noble Lords who have participated in this short but important Amendment 195ZAZMB debate. Tabled by Lord Beecham I have two or three responses. With regard to petitions, there is a specific reason why I tabled the amendment. 195ZAZMB: Clause 42, Page 38, line 17, leave out “one or I understand that the Minister would not wish to have more” and insert “at least one-third of the” separate sets of rules for elderly people, disabled people or whoever. The rules pertaining to petitions are for Lord Beecham: My Lords, I understand that this electors—therefore, people over 18. I am suggesting amendment, like many others, would become superfluous, that there should be some means for people younger if, as I apprehend, the Government are to accede to than 18 to be able to petition. amendments to be moved by the noble Lord, Lord On youth councils, I was delighted to hear what the Greaves, effectively to remove from the Bill the provisions noble Lord, Lord Tope, said about what is happening for local referendums except in respect of council tax in his council, and clearly there are things happening increases deemed to be excessive. In the circumstances up and down the land. The fact is, though, that this is that I apprehend are about to occur, there is not much good practice but it is not everywhere. The Minister point in my moving this amendment, and therefore I on behalf of the Government, we as the Opposition will not do so. and indeed society should be doing more to ensure Amendment 195ZAZMB not moved. that young people are aware of what is happening. So often it is the same young people who participate in youth parliaments as participate in youth councils. I Amendment 195ZAZN do not denigrate what they are doing—it is fantastic—but Moved by Lord Greaves there are many other young people who we need to draw into this magic circle. We need to look together 195ZAZN: Clause 42, leave out Clause 42 at innovative ways to do that. I trust that the Minister might go away and ask her officials to think about Lord Greaves: My Lords, in moving Amendment how we can ensure that there is a wider store of people 195ZAZN, a relatively short number compared with whom we can enthuse about democratic engagement some we have just had, I shall speak to 17 others in and engagement in our society. this group, some of which are even shorter. The purpose 1407 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1408 of these amendments is to make the Bill itself even even more persuasive is the fact that they are very shorter, which I think would benefit the people of this expensive to hold. They are misleading to members of country generally. the public, who will not unnaturally think that if the The first amendment removes Clause 42, which is local authority has gone to all the trouble of establishing the duty to hold local referendums—a duty to hold a a referendum using the full electoral process, then they local referendum under ordinary local election rules if will actually implement whatever the result is. Yet the a petition received by a council signed by at least 5 per provisions here are not binding; a local authority, if it cent of the electors in a ward, a county division, or the is so minded—and brave enough—may well then decide whole authority, is received. If passed, the result of not to abide by the outcome of the result of the the referendum would be advisory on the authority. referendum. The first amendment removes this duty from the Bill; I will end where I began, in the words that I know the other 17 amendments in the group remove the the Minister believes to be most persuasive, because remaining 17 clauses in this chapter of the Bill, which they are the words that she and her colleagues use so set out how the referendum procedures would operate often to the rest of us when we are moving amendments: and how the referendums would take place. “My Lords, these provisions are simply not necessary”. The reasons why I would like to do this were fairly fully set out when I spoke at Second Reading and Baroness Hanham: My Lords, before we go any described this part of the Bill as “nonsense”, and in further it may be in the interests of the House if I the discussions we had in Committee. It is a provision indicate probably what is now the worst kept secret—that which is over the top. It would be very expensive in the Government will be minded to accept these relation to its value, which would simply be advisory amendments, and there may be further debate. referendums, and if combined with a local election, it Lord True: My Lords, I do not wish to inject a note has the potential to distort that election. If it is free- of dissent entirely, because noble Lords who were in standing, then it carries the whole costs of a local Committee will know that I was one of those who was election. It is open to abuse by extreme groups; as I extremely critical of many of the prescriptive aspects said in Committee, in my own ward, in Waterside in of what was laid out in the Bill. Indeed I have laid Pendle, less than 200 names would be required, and amendments with my noble friend Lord Howard to the last time I stood for election the BNP got more raise the question of whether referendums might be than 300 votes. It would also be open to people binding in certain circumstances. demanding large numbers of referendums on all kinds of things that the council would find it extremely I do not fear the use of referendums; they will be difficult to refuse to hold. possible, and I hope that in endorsing the decision of the Government, the message will not go out from the There is the question of planning: the Government House that somehow referendums are in all circumstances removed planning applications from the scope of this undesirable or unwanted. I know that that is not the chapter, but not the plan-making process, where it Government’s intention otherwise they would not have really is superfluous to a process which already has presented us with the Bill in the first place, but in the provisions for public participation. general maelstrom of enthusiasm that I am sure will Councils already have the powers to hold referendums follow this announcement, it is important for someone when they want to do so, and as I have already said, if to place it on the record that in terms of localism and passed, the referendums would only be advisory anyway. popular voice, a referendum can be a powerful and Councils could simply ignore them, and the whole legitimate weapon of public power and authority. thing would be a waste of money. One of the problems with what was drafted by the The Bill retains provisions for referendums in various Government was not only its prescriptiveness but of specific cases, such as elected mayors, what the course the ease with which it could be used, which led Government call excessive council tax increases, and to all the problems of cost and potential abuse, and neighbourhood plans. While I have views on those that is where we got into a number of difficulties. The referendums I am not trying here to remove those noble Lord, Lord Beecham, withdrew an amendment provisions, but merely to remove the provisions for which was effectively going to restrict the ability of advisory local referendums in Chapter 1 of Part 4 of one or two councillors to interfere or manipulate the the Bill. I beg to move. process of these referendums. Since we are going to discuss this matter late here 7.15 pm tomorrow in relation to neighbourhood orders, Amendment 207, which gives the power to individual Lord Tope: My Lords, I support my noble friend ward members to exercise a stopping power, is not Lord Greaves in all that he has said. He has made a desirable. That reason why the Government’s referendum very persuasive case, and I would summarise it in provisions are not desirable is a good reason why I words that we hear so often from the Dispatch Box: support the Government’s action in withdrawing this. “My Lords, these provisions are not necessary”. As It is important to state that, from my perspective as my noble friend has said, local authorities are already the leader of a local authority, a referendum is a able to hold referendums if they so choose. The provisions weapon that can and should be used and should be elsewhere in this Bill will widen that possibility—that accepted by those in local government. scope—in a number of ways. I believe that there are better ways of testing public Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, I opinion fairly than using the very suspect means of a shall be extremely brief. My morale has been sustained referendum. Perhaps in the current financial climate, throughout the Recess by the prospect of shortly 1409 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1410

[LORD BROOKE OF SUTTON MANDEVILLE] this loss later in the Bill. I shall apply myself to it for moving Amendment 195ZB, in which I see I have the the rest of the evening. With luck, we shall not get so support of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. That far into the Bill that I cannot find ways of putting amendment is directed at the issue that the noble back opportunities to argue these things. As I say, my Lord, Lord Greaves, has addressed. I tabled it at the main concern is that this great opportunity to help request of the British Retail Consortium. If it makes build communities in cities is being allowed to pass by any difference to any doubts in the mind of my noble at a time when we are all acutely aware that it should friend the Minister about what she is about to say, she not be. will have the British Retail Consortium on her side when she does so. Lord Beecham: My Lords, I very much welcome the I am less sure that Amendments 195D and 195E to Government’s decision to accept the amendments of Clause 59, which are in my name, will now be unnecessary. the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. We debated this at If we are to have a break for dinner, there may be an some length in Committee. The drawbacks of the opportunity to find out whether they need to be system that the Government had intended to bring in moved. were made manifest at that time. The Government, having made the egregious error—in the view of some Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am significantly less well of us—of adopting an American system for the direct informed than the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. This election of police commissioners, were in danger of has caught me by surprise, particularly since, in various incorporating something like a Californian referendum discussions with my noble friend’s officials, the local system into local government. It has not been noticeably referendum was used to ward off my requests for successful in California. amendments in other areas. To go over some of my A referendum is a legitimate way of testing public concerns, I have, throughout the passage of the Bill, opinion. That is absolutely right. It is less obvious that tried to persuade the Government that they need to the proposals in the original Bill—to allow a very look at how localism will work in cities. In rural and small minority of either elected members or the public suburban areas, planning is a great lever and generator to engender petitions on any subject under the sun, at of funds. All things will be possible if we get the any time and at any cost—would make a significant planning side right. Once you have funds, you have the contribution to the kind of community engagement ability to do what you want in a neighbourhood to a that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, rightly wishes to see certain extent. You certainly have a lever with which to not only for the Lavender Hill mob but more generally. negotiate with the local authority. It is a perfectly legitimate and, indeed, important part However, even in as gentle an urban area as of what local government and local governance must Lavender Hill, planning has no function as a raiser of be about. However, there are other ways of involving funds or people’s enthusiasm. The place is built out. communities and testing opinion. It is a pity that one There is very little that planning can do. You will of those ways—the petitioning procedure that was never get a community created in Lavender Hill, let admittedly somewhat overcomplicated by the degree alone some of the more difficult areas of cities, on of regulation applied to it—has been abolished by the the basis of what is in the Bill. We should be turning Bill. It required a council response to a petition from our thoughts to how the section on allowing local residents. It was a good measure. The noble Lord, initiatives to run local services might be made less Lord Shutt, made great play of the fact that it was formal so that neighbourhoods might group around extremely bureaucratic in the way that the previous it. We ought to turn our minds to how neighbourhoods Government laid out how these things should be can make representations to local councils and be conducted. There was some force in that but the listened to on subjects that they really care about, such principle was a good one. It required an authority to as school catchment areas, how parking is enforced respond to a concern that was formally raised by and how decisions are made about the distribution of petition. I hope that the Government might, even at services. this late stage, given that they have taken out this part There are many ways in which we might build on referendums, look again at whether that might be localism in cities. Surely the riots have shown us the reintroduced, perhaps in some more acceptable form importance of doing that. However, in removing than previously. this provision the Government remove the one bit There is also the councillor call for action. I do not of the Bill that gives a possible voice to neighbourhoods think that the Government have disturbed that principle. in cities in trying to persuade their local councils to Admittedly, it is up to a local councillor to make the do something in the way that the neighbourhood call but, on the other hand, a councillor who declines wants them to be done. I will not argue with the to make a call when faced with a considerable body of Minister and my other noble friends that what is in opinion in his ward is unlikely to remain a councillor the Bill at the moment is not an expensive and for long. There is also that mechanism. Generally, in bureaucratic way of doing it, but we have to find recent years local government has been more inclined something else. The Bill is such an opportunity to to establish local mechanisms for consultation and improve life in cities but the Government do not seem involvement. I hope that that will be reinforced. However, interested in taking it. I find that enormously the substantial construction of the previous arrangements disappointing. I am particularly sad that—since for referendum effectively constituted an invitation for somewhere in the great collective mind that is the people to make mischief, which would have happened, department there is an awareness of my arguments—I to divide communities, which would also have happened, should be kept in the dark and not given time to and to involve the authority in considerable expense. It prepare thoughts and arguments to compensate for could run into hundreds of thousands of pounds for a 1411 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1412 significant-sized authority. The noble Lord, Lord True, Not only are there the council tax referendums, there expressed serious concerns on that basis. Therefore, are the right-to-build referendums and the neighbourhood we very much welcome the withdrawal of this proposition, planning referendums. Those complement the provisions which leaves three areas where referendums might for referendums which are already open to councils to occur, as we have heard. We shall come to one of carry out on governance. Any council may carry out those, namely the council tax referendum, shortly. parish polls and informal polls which are to do with its Under the circumstances, I am not sure that it is services and functions. We believe that there is pretty right at this point to raise some of the concerns of the good coverage of this, and that there is the chance for Electoral Commission, with which some of your people to have their voice heard without these provisions. Lordships will be familiar, about how such We have accepted what has turned out to be the will referendums—now in only three categories—might be of the House at a much earlier stage, namely that these conducted. It raises a concern about expenditure in provisions should be reconsidered. We have reconsidered promoting referendums of that kind. Clearly, for local them, and therefore I tell the House that we will accept referendums that are being abandoned it will no longer the amendments of the noble Lords, Lord Greaves apply. However, it will still be potentially applicable to and Lord Tope. other referendums—the three that have been referred to, on elected mayors, council tax and neighbourhood Lord Beecham: Before the noble Baroness sits down, planning issues, which we will eventually come to. I first of all I hope that she will forgive me for not raise it now so that Ministers might have an opportunity thanking her, as I should have done, for responding, as to think a little about the Electoral Commission’s she has just said, to the will of the House. It has been concerns. They may of course have a response already; another very constructive contribution, and I am sure but if they have not, then those concerns will not the whole House is grateful to her. Could I ask in disappear because these particular provisions are no respect of the issue raised by the Electoral Commission, longer to feature in the Bill. which I appreciate is a slightly wider issue, whether the I hope that in the course of further debate we will Government will be looking at that before we get to have an elucidation of the Government’s position in Third Reading, as there will be areas in which it might relation to what is a real concern in respect of how the be relevant? remaining referendums might be conducted, and, more particularly, how they might be financed. Subject to that, I certainly support the amendment of the noble Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I have seen the Electoral Lord, Lord Greaves, and I am pleased that the Commission’s submissions in relation not only to the Government are, as the noble Baroness so gently puts costs, but to questions and to how it should be involved. it, minded to accept them. I cannot give the noble Lord a direct answer but it does seem to me to be inconceivable that we should not take quite serious note of the Electoral Commission’s 7.30 pm representations on this. I am sure we will come back to Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I do not know that that issue. there is an awful lot more to say. It is interesting that at this stage of the proceedings we have a rather limited Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, if I number of people here to debate what, in Committee may intervene before the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and at Second Reading, was a significant and major winds up: am I to take it from what the Minister said issue, with barely a friendly voice in place for these that we will not be debating any amendments which provisions. I therefore say to a rather muted House involve the clauses up to at least Clause 59, as these are that we have listened to the concerns and anxieties that in fact going to leave the Bill? If that is so—and the were raised over all those aspects put forward by the Minister is nodding her head—may I say that the noble Lords, Lord Greaves and Lord Tope, and others, amendments which I was going to move arose because about the expense. We have decided with regard to of the serious gap in understanding between the Common towns that the local referendums do not need to have a Council of the City of London and her department place within this Bill. about the size of the Corporation of the City of If I may just briefly address my noble friend Lord London’s voting arrangements? I hope it will be Lucas, who—if he will forgive me saying so—has possible—if she could perhaps give me a nod again—to strayed a little bit away from what these amendments deal with these matters in correspondence, simply in would do. This is no attack on the cities. It is nothing order to remove the misunderstandings which clearly to do with the cities. It is a general point of view and a still exist in the Bill. general provision that would have allowed anybody— urban, rural, whatever—to have referendums. It has Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I confirm that Clause 59 nothing to do with planning, either, as the planning would go, along with all the other clauses, because referendums are not affected by this Bill, and we will what the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, be returning—probably on Wednesday—to the whole effectively do is to take out the whole of Part 4. If area of provisions for neighbourhood planning and there are still areas that need clarity—and the noble neighbourhood referendums. Lord, Lord Brooke, has said that there are—then I As other noble Lords have said—as the noble Lord, will of course write to him to clarify the amendments Lord Greaves, pointed out in his introduction and as he has tabled, although I am bound to say that I do the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has said as well—there not think that they can be of relevance any more are going to be other opportunities for referendums. under the circumstances. 1413 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1414

Lord Greaves: My Lords, my amendments take out the whole of Chapter 1 of Part 4. I would be quite Amendment 195ZD happy to take out the whole of Part 4 but I do not think I would get quite so much enthusiasm from the Moved by Lord Greaves government Front Bench. 195ZD: Clause 45, leave out Clause 45 Like my noble friend Lord Lucas, I have some concern that localism in this Bill is very rurally Amendment 195ZD agreed. orientated—village-orientated and small-town- orientated—while over half the population of this country lives in large towns and cities. We have a lot of Clause 46 : Duty to determine appropriateness of hard work to do in working out how localism will referendum work in those areas. I am grateful for the very welcome support of the Amendment 195ZE noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I do not agree with him, Moved by Lord Greaves as he knows, about the petitioning procedure which has been removed. When the Bill introducing that 195ZE: Clause 46, leave out Clause 46 procedure came to this House, I struggled manfully to stop it. I am delighted that it has now gone, and I am Amendment 195ZE agreed. delighted that struggling manfully against this Bill has had a little more success. That does not mean to say Clause 47 : Grounds for determination that councils should not deal with petitions properly, expeditiously and seriously: they clearly should. However, Amendments 195A and 195AZA not moved. bureaucratic procedures laid down from on high are not the way to do so. Finally, I congratulate and thank my noble friend Amendment 195AA the Minister, and the whole Government but particularly Moved by Lord Greaves the Communities and Local Government Ministers, on and for their support for these amendments. 195AA: Clause 47, leave out Clause 47 Amendment 195AA agreed. Amendment 195ZAZN agreed. Clause 48 : Petitions: special cases in which holding of referendum is discretionary Clause 43 : Petition for local referendum Amendment 195B not moved. Amendments 195ZAZNZA and 195ZAZNA not moved. Amendment 195BA Amendment 195ZAZP Moved by Lord Greaves Moved by Lord Greaves 195BA: Clause 48, leave out Clause 48 195ZAZP: Clause 43, leave out Clause 43 Amendment 195BA agreed.

Amendment 195ZAZP agreed. Clause 49 : Action following determination in response to petition Clause 44 : The required percentage Amendment 195BB Amendment 195ZB not moved. Moved by Lord Greaves 195BB: Clause 49, leave out Clause 49

Amendment 195ZC Amendment 195BB agreed. Moved by Lord Greaves 195ZC: Clause 44, leave out Clause 44 Clause 50 : Action following determination in response to request Amendment 195ZC agreed. Amendment 195BC Moved by Lord Greaves Clause 45 : Request for referendum 195BC: Clause 50, leave out Clause 50

Amendment 195ZCA not moved. Amendment 195BC agreed. 1415 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1416

Clause 51 : Resolution for local referendum Clause 57 : Application to parish councils

Amendment 195BD Amendment 195BK Moved by Lord Greaves Moved by Lord Greaves 195BD: Clause 51, leave out Clause 51 195BK: Clause 57, leave out Clause 57

Amendment 195BD agreed. Amendment 195BK agreed.

Amendment 195BDA not moved. Clause 58 : Discharge of functions

Clause 52 : Question to be asked in local referendum Amendment 195BL Moved by Lord Greaves Amendment 195BE 195BL: Clause 58, leave out Clause 58 Moved by Lord Greaves 195BE: Clause 52, leave out Clause 52 Amendment 195BL agreed. Amendment 195BE agreed. Clause 59 : Interpretation Clause 53 : Date of referendum Amendments 195C to 195E not moved.

Amendment 195BF Amendment 195F Moved by Lord Greaves Moved by Lord Greaves 195BF: Clause 53, leave out Clause 53 195F: Clause 59, leave out Clause 59 Amendment 195BF agreed. Amendment 195F agreed.

Clause 54 : Publicity for and in relation to local referendum Schedule 5 : New Chapter 4ZA of Part 1 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 Amendment 195BFA not moved. Amendment 195G not moved.

Amendment 195BG Amendment 195H Moved by Lord Greaves Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton 195BG: Clause 54, leave out Clause 54 195H: Schedule 5, page 278, line 38, at end insert— Amendment 195BG agreed. “( ) On application by a relevant authority, the Secretary of State may direct that the substitute calculations referred to in subsection (5) may be increased by an amount determined by the Clause 55 : Voting in and conduct of local referendums Secretary of State.”

Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the purpose of Amendment 195BH the amendment is to try to have a safety valve in the Moved by Lord Greaves arrangements for referendums around council tax, and for the outcomes of those, whereby the Secretary 195BH: Clause 55, leave out Clause 55 of State, notwithstanding the early determination, may direct that a substitute calculation can be increased Amendment 195BH agreed. by an amount determined by the Secretary of State. When we debated these amendments before we instanced Clause 56 : Consequences of local referendum particular circumstances where it was perhaps difficult for a local authority to disclose fully some of the Amendment 195BHA not moved. sensitivities around its budget. Those matters might be commercially confidential or there might be a dispute outstanding. To spell out the consequences, risks, and Amendment 195BJ costs associated with that that could fall on the local authority, which could be difficult and prejudice its Moved by Lord Greaves position. Hence the proposition that there should be 195BJ: Clause 56, leave out Clause 56 an opportunity for the Secretary of State, obviously after discussions, to increase the amount determined. Amendment 195BJ agreed. It may be that the Minister will say that this could be 1417 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1418

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] it has been rejected by the electorate, nor can it be dealt with earlier in the process when the Secretary of right for the Secretary of State to set a higher level of State designates certain categories of authority, and council tax after a referendum. that there will then be scope through that discussion to I do not think that this is localist. Indeed, it would itemise just a few or even one particular local authority. defeat the whole reason for having a council tax That would be the mechanism to allow a council tax referendum in the first place—to let the local electorate increase which was relevant to that local authority, but decide. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw the which was greater than the amount generally determined. amendment. That is the purpose of the amendment. I beg to move. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am grateful Earl Attlee: My Lords, I fear that my response on to the noble Earl for his explanation. We had this this occasion will be fairly similar to the previous one. response and exchange previously. I should stress that The amendment does not take account of the fact that I was not in any way suggesting that a difficulty which the provisional principles for council tax referendums a local authority may be in should not be fully shared will be announced at the same time as the provisional with the Secretary of State. I was simply expressing local government finance settlement. Authorities will the difficulty, at that point in time, of having to expose then have the opportunity to make the Secretary of it fully in the public domain because of the adverse State aware of any exceptional circumstances that consequences that it might bring, to the detriment of they consider he should take into account when the taxpayers in that area. That was the issue that I determining the principles. was seeking to pursue. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, suggested that I take the noble Earl’s point that doing this perhaps there may be financial problems that the local authority after the referendum has been lost would seem to is reluctant to disclose. But what about being open to negate that process. However, I hang on to the point the Secretary of State about its problems? Surely it that there needs to be some mechanism to deal with it. would want to keep the Secretary of State informed. I The noble Earl referred to provisions, which we will do not understand how the situation could arise whereby cover in a different way in Amendments 196A and a local authority was in severe difficulties but wanted 196B, whereby if the Secretary of State is of the view to keep that quiet from the Secretary of State. that an authority is unable to discharge its functions or would be unable to meet its financial obligations Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am sorry if I was not the Secretary of State can step in. However, when we clear. The concern was not about being open and discussed that matter last time, it emerged that that transparent with the Secretary of State, but about the would be an in extremis situation and I am still trying process of a referendum laying bare some difficult to focus on an issue when that situation has not been situations that could prejudice the outcome of those reached but it might be a material contractual issue so far as the wider public is concerned. Obviously, in that the local authority is facing. The issue may have due course, everything would have to be properly reached a critical stage in negotiations, or there may reported and accounted for in the public domain, but be litigation pending or under way. I am suggesting a there could be some sensitivity around issues just at safety valve to deal with that. the point where the referendum might be undertaken. If the Minister is saying that the best way of dealing That is the issue we are seeking to safeguard. with that is to have these discussions earlier so that there can be a separate category for that authority, I 7.45 pm would accept that as a route forward. Quite how it would be viewed by the wider public if an individual Earl Attlee: I think that I can accept, as the noble authority, which presumably would have to be named, Lord describes, that you might not want to make the were to be separately categorised, and the inferences difficulties public at the time of the referendum, should that might be drawn, could give rise to some— that be necessary, but I do not understand why the local authority would not make it clear to the Secretary of State that there was a problem locally. It might have Earl Attlee: My Lords, you could have a category been a minor disaster, or a facility could have been with a single authority or with two authorities that destroyed, for example. The Secretary of State may or have some bad luck, where something went wrong, may not be aware of it but the local authority could and they could be treated a little more generously than tell the Secretary of State, and if it is a matter that others. does not need to be fully advertised then the Secretary of State could perhaps put it in a different category. It Lord McKenzie of Luton: Again, I am grateful for might be common knowledge, and therefore it would that. I hold to the view that although it may help in not be a surprise that the local authority was put in a some instances, being named separately in a category different category. with a potential council tax increase that was greater In addition, if an authority is faced with difficulties than that of most other authorities could itself engender prior to the referendum being held, the Secretary of enquiries, concerns and speculation over what might State may direct that the authority need not hold a be going on. There is no easy way round this but I am referendum if he considers that it will be unable to happy to accept the Minister’s assurance that this type discharge its functions effectively or unable to meet its of issue could be dealt with through the mechanism financial obligations. It cannot be right to allow an that he identifies. I am content to leave it there and beg authority to apply to set an excessive council tax after leave to withdraw the amendment. 1419 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1420

Amendment 195H withdrawn. to go above the designated level. It cannot avoid that. If it acted spuriously or arbitrarily, it could obviously Amendment 195J not moved. be held accountable for that. There is also the question, which we touched on in Committee, of what happens if the referendum is Amendment 195K found to be flawed in some respect in due course. Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton What happens to the declared outcome of that 195K: Schedule 5, page 285, leave out lines 31 to 45 referendum? That is an adjunct to these provisions but, on the specifics of seeking the removal of this Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I beg to move prescription, I think that I understand the Government’s Amendment 195K but shall not move Amendments position. I do not agree with it but I do not see that 195L or 195M because this is an overlapping provision. there is a great point in pursuing it further this evening This amendment would delete the detailed list of and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. issues where guidance can be given by the Secretary of Amendment 195K withdrawn. State in relation to a referendum. Regulations can touch upon provisions relating to: the question to be Amendments 195L and 195M not moved. asked; the publicity to be given in connection with a referendum; the limitation of expenditure in connection Amendment 196 with a referendum; the conduct of the authority, members of the authority and officers of the authority; when, Moved by Earl Attlee where and how voting in a referendum is to take place; 196: Schedule 5, page 286, line 6, at end insert— how the votes cast in a referendum are to be counted; “(6A) No regulations under this section are to be made unless and for disregarding alterations in a register of electors a draft of the regulations has been laid before and approved by and so on. I contend that those issues should be left to resolution of each House of Parliament.” the local authority to determine. If we are to be Earl Attlee: My Lords, in its report, your Lordships’ adherent to localism and want to trust local authorities, Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee then we do not need this degree of prescription. recommended that regulations made under new Section I am afraid that I missed all the fun over the 52ZQ should be subject to the affirmative procedure. removal of referendums earlier in the Bill as I was in These regulations will set out the rules for conducting the Committee on the Welfare Reform Bill. This is one council tax referendums, and I am content that the Bill area where referendums clearly remain in the Bill but I should be aligned with this recommendation. To give believe that the prescription should be removed. effect to this recommendation, Amendments 196 and 197 will add new subsection (6A) to new Section 52ZQ Earl Attlee: My Lords, this amendment removes of the Local Government Finance Act 1992, which is the power to make regulations in relation to significant inserted by Schedule 5 to the Bill, and will amend issues relating to the conduct of council tax referendums. Schedule 6 accordingly. If there are to be no regulations, what are there to be? There are a number of further minor and technical Are authorities to be left to make up their own rules amendments—Amendments 197A, 197ZA, 197ZB, on conducting council tax referendums and counting 197ZC, 197ZD and 197ZE. These do not alter the the votes? policy effect of the council tax referendums provisions Voters are entitled to see referendums handled in a but they ensure that minor drafting errors are corrected consistent way with proper safeguards. The Government and that the provisions operate appropriately in relation have accepted, on the recommendation of your Lordships’ to Wales. If your Lordships desire, I can give more Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, detail on these amendments, but I assure noble Lords that the regulations should be subject to the affirmative that they are minor and technical. I beg to move. resolution procedure. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am content When I responded to similar amendments proposed with the government amendments and have no points in Committee, I said that the regulations would be to raise in connection therewith. Although they are modelled on existing regulations on the conduct of grouped together, I have not yet spoken to Amendments referendums on local government executive arrangements 196A and 196B. I do not know whether they will be and would be subject to consultation with the Electoral called separately but I can support the government Commission. Therefore, we are not suggesting a amendments as they stand. completely different system for operating a referendum; we are merely suggesting changes, where necessary, for Amendment 196 agreed. this particular type of referendum. Given that the regulations will be given considerable Amendment 196A scrutiny and will be subject to the approval of both Houses, I request that the amendment be withdrawn. Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton 196A: Schedule 5, page 286, line 12, at the beginning insert “Subject to subsection (1A),” Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I do not think that we are going to agree on this issue. We think that Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this amendment the Bill is unduly prescriptive and unnecessary. Clearly, takes us back to the point that we touched on earlier the local authority has to have a referendum if it is this evening: whether circumstances might arise where going to deal with its council tax levels or if it wishes currently the Secretary of State can determine whether 1421 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1422

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] Schedule 6 : Council tax referendums: further an authority will be unable to discharge its functions amendments in an effective manner or will be unable to meet its financial obligations unless it has a so-termed excessive council tax increase. Our amendment would bring to Amendment 197 that process the right to seek an independent assessment Moved by Baroness Hanham of those same criteria, so that there is a process, other than, or in addition to, the Secretary of State’s own 197: Schedule 6, page 302, line 13, at end insert— engagement with that decision. That may, in part, “31A In section 113(3) (orders and regulations to be subject to annulment by either House of Parliament, except in certain cases) provide a route for dealing with the issue that we after “except in the case of” insert “regulations under section discussed earlier concerning one-off events arising for 52ZQ above or”.” local authorities. My understanding is that these tests are to be Amendment 197 agreed. judged in the extreme—only if there is a cataclysmic situation and not one somewhere along the spectrum before that. I do not think that that is what the Clause 62 : Council tax calculations by billing wording actually says or what the natural meaning authorities in England would be. However, I believe that an authority should have a right to an independent assessment when it is Amendment 197ZA heading towards situations which are very serious for it and which, without an excessive council tax increase, Moved by Baroness Hanham it could not see its way through. 197ZA: Clause 62, page 50, line 14, leave out “and (e)” and insert “, (e) and (f)”

Earl Attlee: My Lords, similar amendments were Amendment 197ZA agreed. withdrawn in Committee. I set out the Government’s position there and my noble friend Lady Hanham followed up in significant detail in her letter to the Clause 63 : Council tax calculations by major noble Lord, Lord Beecham, dated 19 July, a copy of precepting authorities in England which has been placed in the Library of the House. I shall not repeat all those points in detail, other than to reiterate that it would be inappropriate for an unelected Amendment 197ZB and unaccountable person to make the decision, which Moved by Baroness Hanham will involve a judgment about whether local taxpayers 197ZB: Clause 63, page 52, line 29, leave out second “a” and should be entirely unprotected from excessive increases insert “the” for a financial year. My noble friend’s letter made it clear that authorities Amendment 197ZB agreed. will be able to make the Secretary of State aware of any special circumstances applying to them during the process when council tax principles are formulated Schedule 7 : Council tax: minor and consequential and finally determined. We talked about the possibility amendments of having a separate category. If my right honourable friend got this decision wrong, clearly Amendments 197ZC to 197A there could be very serious consequences if it turned out that a local authority was not able to carry out its Moved by Baroness Hanham functions, and there would be political repercussions 197ZC: Schedule 7, page 307, line 26, after “(7)(a)” insert “— for my right honourable friend. My noble friend also (a) in sub-paragraph (i) omit “general fund or (as the case said the Government would keep an open mind about may be)”, and the context within which this power to disapply a (b) ” council tax referendum would be used. With this in mind I would ask the noble Lord to withdraw these 197ZD: Schedule 7, page 310, line 17, at end insert— amendments. “(3A) In subsection (2)(a) omit the words from “, other than” to “1988 Act”. (3B) In subsection (3)(a)— 8pm (a) at the end of sub-paragraph (i) insert “or”, and Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am grateful (b) omit sub-paragraph (iii).” again for that assurance being on the record. As with 197ZE: Schedule 7, page 310, line 34, at end insert— our earlier discussion, if the categorisation of authorities “(3A) Omit subsection (3). heading for severe difficulties is the route to deal with it, I am pleased to see that on record. I beg leave to (3B) In subsection (4) omit “or subsection (3) above”.” withdraw the amendment. 197A: Schedule 7, page 314, line 30, at end insert— “Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 Amendment 196A withdrawn. 52 The Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 is amended as follows. 53 In section 19(7)(f) (function of calculating budget requirement Amendment 196B not moved. may not be delegated by police and crime commissioner)— 1423 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1424

(a) after “calculating a” insert “council tax requirement or the provisions to remove the Secretary of State’s powers a”, and to set timescales in regulations and replace them with (b) after “section” insert “42A or”. a requirement for relevant authorities to set these 54 In section 23(2) (minimum budget for police and crime timescales instead. We intend to set out in guidance, to commissioner: amendments to section 41(1) of the Police Act 1996) which authorities will need to have regard under for paragraph (c) substitute— Clause 73(2), the factors they should take account of “(c) for “its” substitute “the commissioner’s”.” in doing this. Amendments 197ZC to 197A agreed. We have outlined what we expect these factors to be in the policy statement on the community right to challenge which was recently made available to Peers. Clause 69 : Duty to consider expression of interest Chief among them is the need for authorities to set timescales that give relevant bodies sufficient time— Amendment 197B whether that is to prepare and submit an expression of Moved by Lord Shutt of Greetland interest or organise themselves to bid effectively in a procurement exercise or ensure relevant bodies are 197B: Clause 69, page 60, line 20, at end insert— notified of decisions within a reasonable time. Authorities “(2A) The persons or bodies who may be specified by regulations under subsection (2)(d) include a Minister of the Crown or a will also be required to publish details of these timescales. government department.” Amendment 197E therefore removes the Secretary of State’s powers to specify the minimum periods Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords we now move to which authorities can specify for the submission of that part of the Bill regarding right to challenge. The expressions of interest. Clause 70(2) already enables first set of Government amendments—there are eight authorities to specify periods for the submission of amendments in the group—seek to improve the expressions of interest and Clause 70(3) to publish workability of the right and to clarify certain issues details of these periods. that arose in response to our recent consultation exercise Amendment 197F removes the Secretary of State’s and indeed at the Committee stage in your Lordships’ power to specify the minimum and maximum periods House. Our consultation on the community right to which must elapse between the acceptance of an expression challenge showed there is a real appetite to extend the of interest and the commencement of the procurement duty to consider challenges under the right to more exercise. Instead authorities are required to specify public authorities, including central government and publish details of these periods, which can be departments. Seventy-three per cent of respondents different for different cases. on this issue supported this course of action and I Finally, Amendments 197G and 197H remove the believe it has the support of many in this House. duty on authorities to make a decision on an expression During our deliberations in Committee the noble Lord, of interest within a timescale specified by the Secretary Lord Jenkin, suggested several services provided by of State in regulations. Instead the authority must government departments to which the right could be specify and publish the maximum time this decision extended. will take. In order to prevent delay, relevant authorities Clause 69(2)(d) already gives the Secretary of State will also be required to inform the relevant body of the power to add other persons or bodies carrying on this maximum period in writing, either within 30 days functions of a public nature as relevant authorities. of the end of the period for receiving expressions of Amendment 197B ensures that these persons or bodies interest, or where none exists, within 30 days of receiving could include a Minister of the Crown or a government an expression of interest. It must then notify the department. Amendment 197C ensures that if the relevant body of its decision within the timescale it has duty is extended to a person or body that exercises specified. I beg to move. functions outside England, the right to submit an expression of interest will apply only to services provided Lord Lucas: I should be very grateful if my noble by that person or body in England. friend could go into a little more detail about Amendment 197D responds to a query raised by Amendment 197E. He has removed there the ability of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, in Committee about whether the Secretary of State to set minimum timescales. I a public or local authority could be a community understand what he says about flexibility. But if a body. This was never our intention. In line with the local authority wishes to discourage activity under definition of a voluntary body in Clause 69(6), we are this part of the Bill, then timescales is where it will therefore amending Clause 69(8) to clarify that a squeeze most easily. As my noble friend says, community public or local authority cannot be a community body. organisations will take time to get themselves organised, Amendments 197E, 197F, 197G and 197H are about to get their bids in and get them up to the standard enabling relevant authorities to determine timescales. required for subsequent scrutiny and competition. It is They make changes to the provisions on the timescales not clear to me in all the liberalising—from the point associated with the community right to challenge in of view of the local authority—which is going on in response to concerns raised by many local authorities, these amendments, how the community, or bits of the and others, during our recent consultation. These community, can effectively appeal against, or have concerns focused on the difficulty of setting timescales some notice taken, of a local authority which is setting nationally that could take account of the wide variations very short timescales, which make things impracticable. in services and circumstances and did not interfere There is guidance there. If the local authority does not with timescales for existing commissioning cycles. We go along with guidance, there does not seem to be any agree with these concerns and are therefore amending set of teeth that can be sunk into the local authority. 1425 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1426

[LORD LUCAS] better than the existing wording which leaves it all to My experience of this is mostly in terms of parking the Secretary of State to lay down rules and regulations. regulations. There, again, the Government issue guidance. I wish that the Government had been more flexible on If the local authority goes against that guidance, no similar matters in the 100 or so areas in the Bill that we one takes any action of any description at all. Here it can point to as giving excessive powers to the Secretary seems to be rather more important that in order to of State. In this instance, the Government have listened encourage action under this part of the Bill, there is an and we welcome that. effective policing of the actions of local authorities to make sure that they are opening themselves up to what Lord Beecham: My Lords, the Minister referred to must be in many cases an inconvenient and, in their the extension to Ministers of the definition of agencies view unnecessary, application of neighbourhood rights which might be subject to the right to challenge. That and interests, with a system which they have got is the burden of Amendment 197B. Perhaps in his running very nicely, thank you very much. I would reply the Minister might indicate whether that could very much like some comfort that there will be an also include next-step agencies of government, which effective substitute for the backstop provided by the might carry out functions. More particularly, when Secretary of State in the Bill as we have it now, which one looks at Amendment 197D in conjunction with is being removed by these amendments, in cases where Amendment 197B, it seems to me that something of a local authority is acting to make this part of the Bill an anomaly is being created. There would be a community unworkable. I hope my noble friend can give me some right to challenge Ministers under Amendment 197B, comfort on that. and that would extend to parish councils, but it would not, by virtue of Amendment 197D, extend to other Lord Shutt of Greetland: I do not know whether I local authorities, assuming one defines parish councils can give the noble Lord any comfort. The problem is as local authorities. So we could have the anomalous that, on the one hand, people are asking for localism situation of a parish council being able to exercise a and letting the locals decide and, on the other hand, right to challenge a government department or Minister the noble Lord is saying, “Let the Secretary of State about a provision of a service, but not the principal be on their back”. We cannot have it both ways. We authority in which it is situated. certainly hope that people will be reasonable. For I do not imagine that that has been deliberately example, to have an expression of interest that is open constructed in that way, but I should be grateful if the for five minutes would not be reasonable. I should Minister would undertake to look at that anomaly have thought that there would be other ways in localities before Third Reading. Parish councils can be quite to put a stop to that. It is as a result of our earlier substantial bodies—there can be 40,000 or 50,000 debates and concerns about the Secretary of State people in a parish area—and they might bid for a being too prescriptive in these matters that some of government service, whereas the county or district in these amendments have been brought forward. I should which they are situated could not. That strikes me as a have thought that that would be appreciated by the situation which would be difficult to explain. Perhaps House. But we are seeing the other view, which I know it has not been envisaged as a possibility, but it seems exists from time to time, that there will be recalcitrant to arise from these amendments. Perhaps the Minister local authorities which will not get on with things as could indicate a willingness to look at that point people hope they might. I think we have moved in the before we get to Third Reading. right direction and, if it goes wrong and the recalcitrant authorities become a multitude, clearly something would have to be done, but perhaps we ought to trust local 8.15 pm people and local authorities. Lord Shutt of Greetland: I thank noble Lords who have contributed to the debate. I am able to say to the Lord Greaves: I take it that that was not the Minister’s noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that we are requiring local reply to the debate. I have three brief points to make. authorities to publish the timescales, so that if there We are moving on to the community right to challenge, were hideous timescales they would be shown up. I and some of us have found it quite difficult to understand cannot imagine that they would endeavour to publish how it will work and how some of the problems which timescales which looked as though they were totally might result will be overcome. I thank the Bill team for impossible for people to cope with. As a matter of their time and patience in explaining exactly how they public law, they must act reasonably. We have to bear see it working and being fairly honest about some of that in mind and I hope that gives the noble Lord the difficulties which might exist. This is a difficult some comfort. part of the Bill and it is one which, when it is enacted, I understand the concerns of my noble friend Lord as no doubt it will be, will need a careful eye kept on it. Greaves. I know how much hard work he has put into I cannot say that we have not had an immense amount trying to understand the issues in this area. I shall of co-operation in trying to thrash it out. write to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, if I am I very much support Amendments 197B and 197E wrong, but I believe it is quite right that a parish to 197G on the timing issues. Those are clearly a result should be in a position to exercise the right. I believe of responding to the public consultation, but also to that if one were able to challenge areas of government, the discussions in Committee. I do not share the local authorities could then become relevant. I may worries of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, about the have to write to him to clarify that, but that was my timing issues. The way in which the timing issues are belief when I heard people speak on that area, although now presented in the Bill is much better and leaves a it may be that some tidying up is required. I trust that great deal of initiative to local authorities. It is much noble Lords will be able to accept these amendments. 1427 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1428

Lord Greaves: Before the Minister sits down, and or half a dozen employees to go off on their own without wishing to pre-empt the noble Lord, Lord initiative and to do their own thing regardless of what Beecham, is that an indication that there might be the rest of the staff think. The Labour amendment in some tidying up to be done at Third Reading, and that this group suggests that any such initiative should have that issue therefore could be considered then? the support of at least half the employees. On the face of it, that seems sensible. Lord Shutt of Greetland: If we can do this by There is concern that a small number of employees writing a letter and giving comfort in that way, it will could act as a proxy for commercial companies coming be done that way. If, ultimately, it really were needed, in on the back of the provision. In our discussion with we would indeed have to come back to it at Third Ministers and civil servants, we have been given many Reading. assurances that safeguards are set out in the Bill to avoid that happening. The Ministers we have talked to Amendment 197B agreed. have been absolutely clear that they do not see that as desirable, that it ought not to happen and that it can Amendment 197C be prevented. I am asking my noble friend today not Moved by Baroness Hanham just for a statement that the safeguards are there but for a clear explanation on the record of how local 197C: Clause 69, page 60, line 26, after “functions” insert “in authorities will be able to prevent that possible abuse. relation to England” It is possible, as Ministers have told us, that that is unlikely to happen very often, but that is not a reason Amendment 197C agreed. for not taking action to prevent it. As for the process in which the community right to Amendment 197CA challenge will take place, I am widening the debate Moved by Lord Greaves slightly to avoid saying quite so much on the next 197CA: Clause 69, page 60, line 33, leave out paragraph (d) group of amendments. The first process is that a relevant body has to be approved by the council. If it is a parish council, it is automatic. If it is a community Lord Greaves: My Lords, this little group of or voluntary body, the principal council will have to amendments raises some important and fundamental approve it as being a relevant body. The second part of issues relating to the community right to challenge. I the process is that a relevant body may make an shall speak also to Amendment 197DA. I think that expression of interest to run a service and the principal there is also a Labour amendment in the group. council has to decide whether to accept that expression We are back in the Alice in Wonderland world of of interest. So long as it fits the rules and regulations, relevant bodies, relevant authorities and relevant services. it will not be able to reasonably refuse it. The third Amendment 197CA would leave out the provision part of the exercise is that, having accepted an expression that two or more employees of a relevant authority—a of interest, the principal council has to carry out a local authority—can be specified as a relevant body, in procurement exercise. other words, a body which can challenge to run a The concern that a lot of us now have is not about service. The Bill defines “relevant body” as, the processes in this Bill for approving a relevant body, “a voluntary or community body, … a body of persons or a trust which are full of all kinds of safeguards, with the which is established for charitable purposes only, … a parish council, … in relation to a relevant authority, two or more possible exception of the provision relating to employees. employees of that authority, or … such other person or body as We are not too concerned about the process of accepting may be specified by the Secretary of State”. an expression of interest, which again seems to have a The term “two or more employees” of a relevant number of safeguards written into it. It is in the authority does not seem to fit in with that list of procurement exercise where the problems seem to lie. defined bodies. One assumes that the other bodies Once the expression of interest is accepted, the defined by the Secretary of State will be community procurement exercise comes into effect automatically. bodies. Employees are different. It seems to us that safeguards against abuse of the That is not to say that there are not circumstances process are crucial. in which employees can, and indeed ought to, take Amendment 197DA is a different amendment. In over responsibility for the running of services on Clause 69(8), “community body” is defined as, behalf of the principal council. Many of us would like “a body that carries on activities primarily for the benefit of the to see far more organisations such as mutuals and community”. co-operatives, which provide what, in a long lifetime This amendment would add on the end of that, ago in the Young Liberals, we used to call worker “and is actively engaged in doing so in the area in which the control—my noble friend Lord Tope remembers all relevant service is being provided”. that. Employee bodies or groups of employees taking The amendment restricts the definition of a community over the running of services in a co-operative way is a body to a body which is active in the community perfectly valid and desirable way in which, in appropriate referred to. It restricts it to local bodies or to wider circumstances, public services can be run. They may bodies which are already active in the area. Otherwise, be arm’s-length or more than arm’s-length bodies. it would be wide open, for example, to a large national However, it is our view that if the Government are charity that has no presence whatever in an area to interested in that—they have given some indication move in and try to take over services. If it is about that they may be—that should be addressed as a community bodies, surely it is about bodies which are separate issue. It is not the same as allowing a couple already active in that community. 1429 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1430

[LORD GREAVES] supporting their needier members through their I look forward to the Minister’s comments on that beneficence and redirection of funds from the National and in particular to his explanation of how the safeguards Health Service. As I said, I have found those discussions will apply to prevent abuse, particularly of a small very constructive. I very much hope that the same number of employees putting in a bid for a service. thinking is going on in my noble friend’s department. Also, in general, what safeguards will there be against large commercial companies using this operation to Lord Beecham: My Lords, I certainly support the sweep up services, which is what Ministers are repeatedly amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in respect telling us they do not intend to happen? of the proposal that two or more employees could issue a challenge to the authority, which I would much Lord Lucas: My Lords, I face in a slightly different rather were not in the Bill at all. Failing that, my direction from my noble friend Lord Greaves. I hope Amendment 197CB, would at least require a majority my noble friend on the Front Bench can give me some of the employees affected to support such a move. I comfort that, when the regulations are set out for this, really hope that the Government will take that seriously. they will have in mind how desirable it is that we It does not seem appropriate that two or more should encourage the creation of neighbourhood-based employees—it might be a director or deputy director; community organisations to take on services currently it could be people lower in the organisation—could provided by the state. One of the difficulties that we simply take a decision which would affect a considerable face in cities is that people have become used to the number of people without their consent and outsource comfort of state provision, although they are getting a whole section of the local authority. That seems extremely grumpy in some cases with the way in which wholly unreasonable and not at all compatible with it is provided. the general thrust of the Bill, which looks to secure If a community in a city is to get together and go support for a range of measures on the part of through the process of preparing to bid for a service communities. I hope that the Government will which it values, it is going to need considerable comfort acknowledge that there is an issue here and will accept and assistance in the regulations to make sure that it is one or other of the amendments. My preference would not going to get tripped up on technicalities and that be that of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, but, failing the local council can offer advice rather than having to that, I would be delighted to accept his support for the stand back and treat this strange creature as a competitor fallback position. to any commercial interests which may come along to However, I am less persuaded by his Amendment bid for it afterwards. We need to be equipping ourselves 197DA. I quite take the thrust of his intention, but I in this Bill to nurture local enterprises and communities am not sure the wording is very compelling. The in cities to give them a chance through the provision of amendment refers to the body concerned being required services to generate a surplus for reinvestment in the to be, community. That is what we are doing elsewhere in “actively engaged … in the area in which the relevant services is this Bill for rural communities, which will generate a being provided”. comfortable surplus out of planning permission, but Let us take as an example a county area and services we are doing nothing for inner city communities. This for the elderly or domiciliary care. There might be an is the bit of the Bill where we give relatively compact organisation in one corner of the county carrying out communities easy access to a diversity of resources. that service. It would hardly meet the description of Cities exist because they have that advantage over being, rural communities. “actively engaged in the area”; We need to give the local elements of those communities a real chance to get involved in providing local services that is, across the area in which the relevant service is and in that way generate surpluses which they can being provided. It is difficult to define in the way that reinvest in the community and do the things that they the noble Lord seeks. want to do. I should like my noble friend to give me I am therefore unenthusiastic about the way in comfort that that the department has urban communities which the noble Lord reaches his objective, although I in particular in mind in this part of the Bill. am bound to say that I am not sure that I can offer a better alternative. However, in respect of the previous 8.30 pm two amendments, the Government need to rethink I have received much more helpful responses on this their position to facilitate at the very least a majority subject from my noble friend at the Department of decision by those who would be affected by a move of Health. Those responses suggest that, once we get the two of their colleagues. I cannot see any logical reason health Bill through—as I am sure we will—we will why the Government should resist that. find local GP commissioning groups who are ready, willing and able to commission services from local Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I have later amendments community groups. Looking after the elderly, for instance, on the same issues. In relation to Amendment 197DA, or making sure that people get looked after in other I would like to say to my noble friend that I think that ways which the massive mechanisms of the National experience in the particular activity that is at issue is Health Service find difficult and inconvenient but less important than the geographical link. I take his which the community of patients through their doctors point about wanting a connection, but I am not quite none the less wish should be done, will be accommodated convinced that it is the particular connection that he readily and with ease and enthusiasm. We may well has mentioned. However, by and large I am entirely find communities becoming much more active in with him on this issue. 1431 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1432

The noble Lord, Lord Lucas, framed this in terms Before I respond in general I will deal with the of urban needs, and I myself am very much an urban matters raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, because and suburban person. He also mentioned the comfort I am aware that he was not particularly comforted on of state provision. Since this debate has morphed into the last occasion that I responded to him. I hope that discussion not just about two employees, but about he will be now, because if he looks at Clause 74, he will whether two employees might, as it were, sell out to see that it is headed, “Provision of advice and assistance”. Tesco, it does remind me that there is often a very I will not say that it is littered with the words “Secretary sharp divide on this issue. People do not like Tesco, of State”, but they are there half a dozen times, which but they do like being able to shop in Tesco, which suggests that the Secretary of State may well give creates quite a dilemma. advice and assistance to those who want to be involved My question for my noble friend is whether there is in the challenge. I understand that the department’s any room for local variation in a local authority’s view is that the clause would be used to give help and response to such an expression of interest? I will come advice to various organisations that may be far better to my other questions when we come to my amendments able to tackle the challenge. later. Lord True: My Lords, there is a gentle sense of Lord Lucas: My Lords will my noble friend clarify irony in the representative of the workers’ party, and whether that would be the case when the Secretary of my noble friend who is yearning for the days when his State was being challenged under the amendments party stood for worker control, expressing so much made earlier by my noble friend? concern at the prospect of employees, however few—less than half, I gather, is unacceptable— expressing an Lord Shutt of Greetland: That is a little further interest in undertaking a function. It seems to me that down the road, is it not? If the clause states that that we are witnessing major change in communities and advice is being given, then that advice is being given. local government and that it is perfectly reasonable, Therefore, if the Secretary of State is directly giving a indeed it is already happening all over the country, service that is ultimately challenged, I would have that groups of workers and employees are coming thought that that had to be, quite frankly. However, forward with propositions to set up social enterprises, that is a little further down the road and it will not to take on existing bodies and to take on other activities. happen tomorrow. Nevertheless, it is there that advice I am sorry that I was not in the Chamber to welcome can be given and I hope that that will be helpful to my the withdrawal by my noble friend of regulation in the noble friend. previous group of amendments, which I do welcome. Yet here we are being pushed to prescribe and put I will look at these notes and respond accordingly. blocks in the way of people putting forward expressions Amendment 197CA would remove relevant authority of interest simply on the basis that they might be employees as a relevant body, meaning that they would employees of the organisation and, still worse, that be unable to express an interest in running a relevant they might secretly be in cahoots with capitalism. service. The coalition programme for government committed to empowering public sector staff to take Lord Beecham: That is not what I said, nor is it control of their own services in new enterprises such what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said. What we as mutuals. That was reinforced in the recent publication object to is the idea of two people in a potentially large of the Open Public Services White Paper. The Cabinet organisation committing the rest of the employees. Office is leading on implementing this commitment by Where is the democracy in that? introducing a new right to provide. The inclusion of employees of the relevant authority as relevant bodies Lord True: There is nothing to say that this deals under the right to challenge will implement the right with a large organisation—some of the things that we to provide in relation to local authority services. are discussing at the moment are relatively small. It To accept this amendment would be a great shame. seems inconceivable to me that two employees would Employees are often best placed to see how services act against the wishes of those people that they actually could be improved and their ideas could make a huge want to work with in the future. For years the noble difference in delivering more efficient, effective and Lord endured the policy of his party being made by responsive services. The amendment could prevent small, powerful executives purporting to speak in the those good ideas from seeing the light of day by names of millions of people—for all we know, they forcing employees to organise themselves as a charity, probably still do. I do not see any reason why a group voluntary or community body simply in order to of workers or employees should not get together and express an interest. Employees may not be prepared to entrust their negotiations about an expression of interest be in a position to undertake such a process before an to two or three of their number. I think that we should expression of interest has even been accepted, although be extremely careful in framing this Bill not to put of course they will have to comply with the requirements forward regulation that makes employee initiative more for what must be in an expression of interest. difficult. In addition, this could create a parallel process with Lord Shutt of Greetland: My Lords, I thank noble employees putting their ideas to local authorities outside Lords who have contributed. The noble Lord, Lord the procedure set out in the right. This would risk Greaves, introduced the debate and then strolled off jeopardising the transparency of the process: proposals into the area covered by my notes for the next section, should be evaluated consistently whether they originate so I will trespass into them and see whether that from existing employees, a parish council or a voluntary works. or community body. 1433 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1434

[LORD SHUTT OF GREETLAND] that the body carries on its activities in the area in It is worth noting that in the policy statement, the which a relevant service is being provided. This is an Community Right to Challenge, which was made available unnecessarily restrictive requirement which could work in the House Library on 8 September, we make it clear against the interests of the communities for which that safeguards will be in place to prevent the kind of services are delivered. It could deny to those within a abuse of the right that is concerning some noble community of interest, for example people with learning Lords. For example, the policy statement states our difficulties, the expertise of a national organisation intention to provide that expressions of interest will experienced in delivering services geared to their needs. have to set out the relevant body’s case that they are It would also prevent community bodies successfully capable of providing the service and of competing in a delivering services elsewhere from using the right to procurement exercise. That will work to ensure that expand that service provision into a different area. For only employees serious about running a service express example, Bulky Bob’s is a social enterprise based in an interest in running it and should discourage any Liverpool that collects, reuses and recycles bulky household abuse of the right. In addition, employees submitting waste. It began delivering services for Liverpool City an expression of interest will need to set out how they Council, but has expanded to deliver its services in propose to engage with staff affected by the expression other areas. of interest in the development of their proposal. Bulky Bob’s reuses and recycles 65 per cent of the Amendment 197CB, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord furniture and white goods it collects, thereby reducing Beecham, deals with employee support for challenges. the impact on the environment and saving the council I understand that the intention behind the amendment money in landfill tax. The commitment to recycling is to apply a condition to Clause 69(5)(e) that employees has helped more than 30,000 low-income families gain must first obtain the support of a majority of employees access to affordable, “pre-loved” furniture since 2000. affected by their expression of interest before they can It also runs training programmes that enable long-term be considered a relevant body. The policy statement I unemployed people to gain the necessary skills and referred to previously also set out our intention to experience for a future career in logistics, recycling, require employees to set out in their expression of warehousing and distribution, retail and administration. interest their proposals for staff engagement. However, We want to encourage more service providers like we do not want to be prescriptive about how this is to Bulky Bob’s rather than limiting them to working only be achieved. It is best decided locally rather than for the benefit of one community. centrally. The experience of the way the right to request I am aware of the concerns that noble Lords have has worked in the National Health Service shows that expressed that this well intentioned community right existing, well established communication channels are might get hijacked by private companies that may likely to play an important part in engaging staff. have the experience and the resources to win contracts There is no requirement for a ballot to demonstrate that might otherwise be awarded to community groups. staff support for a proposal under the right to request. There is a particular concern that local authority However, the face-to-face meetings, intranet updates employees may abuse the right by expressing an interest and staff clinics undertaken when some 1,200 staff as a proxy for private sector organisations. We intend from the Hull primary care trust used the right to to make provisions in regulations that will help to transfer to a social enterprise show that good safeguard against these risks. These are set out in the communication between the staff involved is likely to policy statement that we made available in the House be at the heart of any successful challenge. Library on 8 September, which I hope noble Lords will have seen. We have sought to balance the need for 8.45 pm safeguards with the need to allow relevant bodies to Requiring employees to demonstrate that the majority take up the right and deliver real improvements for of staff support a proposal in order for their idea to people using public services. We do not want to put get a fair hearing is an unnecessary burden and risks disproportionate obstacles in the way of relevant bodies deterring employees from exercising the right. It would and risk harming the chances of good ideas from require employees to identify all affected members of groups that are serious about delivering services seeing staff, which may not be straightforward if they operate the light of day. from several sites. Then they would have to spend In the policy statement that I have referred to, we time, and potentially money, carrying out an exercise were clear that we intend to provide that the relevant to seek views and gather evidence of approval. Such a body must make the case in their expression of interest prescriptive and formal process is disproportionate. that they are capable of providing the service. If there There are, of course, a number of issues that staff will is no evidence or if the evidence is not convincing, the need to consider and actions they will need to take authority will be able to reject the expression of interest. where they wish to form an organisation to deliver a This will also be the case if the authority considers service, including engaging affected staff. That is why that expression of interest to be vexatious or frivolous. we are requiring authorities, in setting periods between We also intend to provide that an expression of interest an expression of interest being accepted and a procurement from authority employees must include details of how exercise starting, to have regard to factors such as they plan to engage staff affected by it. Prescribing allowing relevant bodies sufficient time to prepare the that this should be done by requiring approval from bid for a procurement exercise. the majority of staff would be disproportionate and Amendment 197DA requires community bodies to would fall into the trap of over-engineering the right. operate in the area the service is delivered. This would It could have the effect of making it harder for employees amend the definition of a community body to require than for other relevant bodies to take up the right. 1435 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1436

We strongly believe authority employees have a lot transferring services to staff is going to be successful, to contribute in their local knowledge and connection, it has to be done by negotiation and agreement across their experience of delivering services to the community, the staff, not just by two or three individuals, who may and their capacity for innovation. It is therefore right be disaffected because they have not been promoted that they should be able to challenge and we should and think they ought to have been, or who may be not put disproportionate hurdles in their way. Clearly, senior members of staff who think that they can run were employees proved to have sought to subvert the things perfectly well but do not have the support of purpose of the right, however, for example, by taking everybody in their departments. There are serious bribes or secret commissions which arise out of their problems here that will come out in practice. I suspect employment, or by revealing confidential information, the matter will come back to allow a better and more their employer would have legal recourse. Equally, comprehensive view of it. others would risk damaging the reputation of their As the Government have said in all the briefings, organisations, and possibly facing a legal challenge they would have to show how they propose to engage from trustees, members or other interested parties if their staff in their proposals. Surely they should have they were found to have participated in such underhand engaged them and got their views before they put the activity. proposals in, not afterwards. We were told that this It is, however, important to be very clear that the would take up a lot of time, energy and resources, but ultimate aim of the right to challenge is to see if asking the people who are going to be working in improvements in local services. Where a successful this enterprise is going to take up too much time and expression of interest triggers a procurement exercise, energy, how on earth are they going to find the time the result should be an improvement in the service. and energy to put in the sort of comprehensive bid This means a better outcome for service users, whoever that, we are assured, is an absolute safeguard that it is wins the exercise. going to be a serious bid? I trust that in the circumstances, after that lengthy Bulky Bob’s gets raised quite a lot in your Lordships’ explanation, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw House. I suppose most of us have been there to see it his amendment. at various times, and it is great. However, Bulky Bob’s has done what it did under the present system by Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am very grateful for the agreement and negotiation with the councils and the long and comprehensive explanation. I am sorry—I communities in which it works. It did not do it by have a cough, but I shall try to keep going until I get a challenging them from outside. In a sense, I do not drink of water. Thank you for that; I am glad that think that it is a good argument for the Bill at all. some of my elders and betters have got important We are grateful for all the policy statements in the things to do. I shall try not to spill water on the Bench. briefings that have been produced, even if some of I am grateful to everyone who has taken part in the them seem to confuse more than help. In Committee debate. I shall simply say to the noble Lord, Lord my noble friend the Minister said he hoped that we Lucas, that I think that there are major problems with would have draft regulations by this time, so that at the whole of this Bill in urban areas, but these are least we could look at them rather than the much matters to which we will come back time and again. To vaguer policy statement. I know that he has made the noble Lord, Lord True, I will say that I do not strenuous efforts to try to achieve that. It has not been think that the Liberal Party ever stood for workers possible, but it is not his fault at all. However, when we control. There was a slight difference in the 1960s see the regulations, I think that we will have a better between the young Liberals and the party as such, as idea of whether this is going to work and how it is my noble friend who was in the young Liberals with going to work. In the mean time, I beg leave to me at the time will no doubt confirm. withdraw the amendment. The more explanations I hear about this, the more Amendment 197CA withdrawn. questions seem to come. I am extremely grateful for the efforts made to explain it all, but some of the Amendment 197CB not moved. answers that we get confirm that there are difficult questions that have not been resolved. As for the Amendment 197D coalition programme and open public services, in a sense they confirm my concerns. Involving employees Moved by Baroness Hanham and staff in running or even handing over services to 197D: Clause 69, page 61, line 1, after second “body” insert “, groups of staff is something quite different and requires other than a public or local authority,” a different approach to that of a community right to Amendment 197D agreed. challenge. I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that employees have to be seen as a group, Amendment 197DA not moved. as a body, and not as individuals. When councils recognise relevant bodies in the community, as I read Clause 70 : Timing of expressions of interest it, they are recognising voluntary groups. They are recognising community groups. They are recognising parish councils representing the community. However, Amendment 197E when it comes to employees, any two or three or half a Moved by Baroness Hanham dozen people seem to be able to come along and ask to 197E: Clause 70, page 61, line 20, leave out subsection (5) be recognised as a relevant body, whereas what they seem to be is a group of individuals. I think that if Amendment 197E agreed. 1437 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1438

9pm jargon of the Bill—and the community group, the parish council, the charity or whichever relevant body put forward the bid. Clause 71 : Consideration of expression of interest Again, we have had a large number of government assurances. Ministers at all levels have stated time and Amendment 197EZA again that that is not their intention with this provision. Moved by Lord Greaves If councils want to test the market, as they are able to, 197EZA: Clause 71, page 61, line 26, at end insert— they should do so clearly and deliberately, not by “(1A) The Secretary of State may by regulations specify an accident under the community right to challenge. That annual cost of a relevant service at or above which level a relevant is what Ministers in the Government assure us is their authority may reject an expression of interest. position. However, it is not clear how that can be (1B) An annual cost of a service that is specified under prevented in the Bill as it stands. May we have a clear subsection (1A) shall be set at the level at or above which a full statement that the Government do not intend the open tendering process is required to take place by any Act or regulations.” community right to challenge to be a way in for large commercial companies, and that clear guidance will be Lord Greaves: My Lords, this is the other group of given to councils on how this can be prevented? May key amendments in this part of the Bill. I speak to we please know how it can be prevented? four others in the group, and there are two more in the Meanwhile, the amendments suggest two possible group from my noble friend Lady Hamwee. These ways forward as safeguards. Amendment 197EZA amendments are all about the process of procurement says that the relevant authority can reject an expression once an expression of interest has been accepted from of interest for a service above the annual cost at which the relevant body.The problem is that once the expression a full tendering process is required. In other words, if of interest is accepted, the procurement procedures it goes over that threshold, that can be a reason for roll forward automatically. The kind of procurement saying, “No, we’re not going to put it out to tender may vary according to the scale of the operation. It because of the consequences”. In practice, this is the could be very small—for example, taking over a local £156,000-odd threshold imposed by the public contracts pocket park. It could be modest, such as meals on regulations. wheels in a village. It could be a bit larger, such as Amendments 197EB, 197EC and 197ED would running a village hall, an estate community centre in a allow a council, instead of going for competitive town or a local library. It could be quite substantial, procurement by tender, to carry out a full and open such as providing adult domiciliary services across a public service review. New subsection (3A), which we district, refuse collection and recycling across a large are proposing, reads: borough, or county library services. So the challenge, “A service review carried out for”, at least in theory, could apply to a wide range of this purpose, services. “must include a consultation process with the relevant body, users All these processes will have to be carried out of the service and any bodies representing them, employees engaged in providing the relevant service and their representatives, according to basic standards such as openness, residents of the area and such other persons that the relevant transparency, non-discrimination, equal treatment and authority considers appropriate”. proportionality, which, apart from anything else, are In other words it would be a very open, transparent imposed by the relevant European directive, which and, one hopes, effective process, looking at how the was transposed into the public contracts regulations service was provided to see whether the challenge from in 2006. As I understand it, and perhaps the Minister a particular group could in fact provide the service can confirm this, the underlying system is unchanged more effectively, economically and advantageously for relating to contracts by local authorities that contract the community. out services. These amendments may not be the best ways to In addition, we have the standards of auditing and provide safeguards against the problem that we have supervision by, at the moment, the Audit Commission, identified, but that there is a problem seems to be the by the system that will replace it, by the councils’ own case. There does not seem to be an answer to the standing orders and by financial regulations. As I problem that if you go for a competitive procurement understand it, the community right to challenge you are bound by the European rules and regulations, contracts will all be bound by existing regulations and if it is a service that is worth more than £156,000 in this way. The key cut-off is imposed by European each year, then there is a real risk that you are putting rules and public contract regulations. Those regulations it out to a commercial company. I beg to move. are set out in euros so the monetary threshold varies a bit according to how the euro goes up and down, but I Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I have Amendments am assured that it is around £156,400. That is the 197FA and 197FAA in this group, and I am well aware threshold over which the annual value of a service that my noble friend at the Dispatch Box will tell me must be open to tender throughout the European that what I am proposing is not lawful. What I am Union. proposing is that a local authority can apply its own The fear and the danger is therefore that the community criteria essentially in assessing the expressions of interest, right to challenge could open the way to a new and and include whatever restrictions and requirements it rather random form of compulsory competitive tendering thinks appropriate—to very much the same aim, the and the takeover of relevant services by large commercial same end, as my noble friend. I have no expectation companies, even if that might be against the wishes of about the amendments being accepted but, like him, I the principal council—the “relevant authority”, in the am looking for reassurances. 1439 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1440

My noble friend the Minister said in response to the The amendments in the names of the noble Lords, previous group of amendments that an expression of Lord Greaves and Lord Tope, and my noble friend interest by two or more employees would not be a Lord Beecham, are absolutely right. They make provision proxy for a commercial organisation, and referred to for a consultation process with the users of a service, that in terms of abuse. I wrote down what he said their representatives and residents of the area. If the about that but confess that, having printed off the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, is unable to accept these policy statement to which he referred some weeks ago, amendments, will he tell the House when he responds I have completely forgotten about it, and it is probably how he squares that with his previous remarks about somewhere in a pile of papers on my desk at the localism? I genuinely feel that the Bill is confused. In moment. What he said was that those expressing an some cases it gives power to the local community, in interest would have to show that they are capable of some cases it takes it back. There is a lot of regulation. providing a service, that they had engaged with the It is all a bit confused here. I would be grateful if the staff, and that what they were doing was not vexatious noble Lord could address that point in particular. or frivolous. I have to say that I would have thought that any commercial organisation will very easily satisfy Lord Shutt of Greetland: I thank the noble Lords those criteria. who have spoken to this set of amendments. I have A concern to which my noble friend Lord Greaves notes on these amendments and will do my best to has not referred is that having set up the arrangement— deal with them. Frankly, I am not certain that there is and this of course is not just something that would an absolute assurance, but let us see how we go with apply to the two employees; it could apply to a community these amendments. body as well—it could then sell the business or dispose Amendment 197EZA would give the Secretary of of the shares in the company which it had formed to State a power to specify in regulations a service value run the service. I have not seen any way in which this threshold above which an expression of interest may could be prevented. I suspect that I would be told that be rejected. It further provides that this threshold will it would be improper to prevent it. But it concerns me be set at or above the level at which a full, open that it is taking this proposal a good deal further than tendering process is required to take place by any Act appears on the face of the Bill. or regulations. I understand that the intention here is I turn to subsections (5) and (6) of Clause 71, the to focus the right on those contracts where it is perceived first dealing with an expression of interest, the second that community groups might have a greater advantage dealing with a procurement exercise. Both talk of the in the procurement process. However, it is worth being authority considering—and I will come back to that clear that while only contracts valued at more than term—whether the activity would, £156,000 must currently comply fully with processes “promote or improve the social, economic or environmental set out in the public procurement regulations, procurement well-being of the authority’s area”. below this level will still be subject to requirements of Well indeed, and well and good. But consider: it is not openness, transparency, freedom to provide services bound to apply those factors. It needs to consider and non-discrimination. them. I dare say that means that it must be able to Furthermore, it is not right to limit the range of show how it has considered them. services open to challenge in this way. It is not true Turning to subsection (7), we are told that this, that the voluntary sector delivers only small-value services. The right ensures that good ideas for improving “applies only so far as is consistent with the law”. any services get a fair hearing and gives those groups There is no particular assurance at all here, if I may say the opportunity to go for it. A threshold that prevents so. Subsection (7) refers to the procurement exercise consideration of ideas for better or more innovative but I am worried that an authority may well read this delivery of higher-cost service contracts seems unnecessary, as applying to the expressions of interest as well. In given the safeguards that I have already mentioned, general, I suspect that local authorities will need quite and a shame. a lot of reassurance over how they apply these provisions. This amendment also risks discouraging growth I speak only for myself in this. I am finding it and partnership. For example, a consortium of Holy difficult to articulate some of the unease that is almost Cross Centre Trust, Mind and Camden Volunteer more instinctive than technical. However, general Centre won a £2 million contract to deliver mental expressions of reassurance and consolation may not health daycare services. Would this consortium not be go quite so far, technically, as to amount to real able to challenge? Or take the example of Hackney reassurance. I have rumbled enough. I hope that the Community Trust, which started off as a small social House has a sense of my unease. enterprise delivering local community transport and has expanded into a highly successful social enterprise. At what point would we say “Sorry, you have grown Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I shall be brief. The too much, so your ideas no longer deserve a fair amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, hearing”? raises important concerns. The other amendments in Finally, it could also limit opportunities for larger the group seek a process to deal with these concerns. charities and communities of interest to challenge for Without these amendments or something else, it is all higher value services. Nobody would argue, for example, rather open to interpretation, which is not a good that Age UK does not represent the interests of older place for us to be. I agree with the comments of the people. Yet if Age UK wanted to challenge to deliver noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, about the sense of the meals on wheels service alongside other services in unease. a large authority area, this amendment could prevent 1441 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1442

[LORD SHUTT OF GREETLAND] Amendment 197FAA would require relevant it from doing so. It would be inflexible to set a threshold authorities carrying out a procurement exercise for service value above which an expression of interest following the acceptance of an expression of interest could be rejected, and we would not want to reduce to consider, the scope of services that could be challenged. “whether it would be appropriate to include particular restrictions Amendments 197EA and 197EB would enable relevant on or requirements of persons bidding in response to the exercise”. authorities to carry out a service review instead of a I can reassure noble Lords that this amendment is not procurement exercise following the acceptance of an necessary to ensure that a local authority can control expression of interest. Amendments 197EC and 197ED the identity of the service contractor to which it lets would require relevant authorities to consult widely in the contract during the life of that contract. It is carrying out such a review. We have introduced the already standard practice for public contracts to contain community right to challenge to ensure relevant bodies a term that any purported transfer by the service with good ideas for how they can deliver services contractor of its performance of the contract to another differently or better get a fair hearing and a chance to person will lead to termination of the contract. compete to run the service. These amendments would put at risk both of these aims. Local authorities will want to retain control over the identity of the person providing services and will It is unclear what a service review would constitute already do that in their service contracts. Even if that under these amendments, and the authority would not were not the case, EU procurement law is strict about be compelled to take any action as a result. Many of a change of identity of the contractor. The substitution you will have received the briefing from 10 leading of a new contractual partner for the one to which the voluntary and community sector groups, including contracting authority initially awarded the contract ACEVO, NCVO, NAVCA and Locality, which states: could be regarded as a change to an essential term of “Giving local authorities the choice whether or not to respond the public contract in question. This could trigger a to an Expression of Interest with a procurement exercise would new procurement exercise. negate the right to challenge entirely, by effectively allowing local authorities to ignore Expressions of Interest”. We have not sought in these provisions to tell relevant authorities how they should design contracts, We are supportive of authorities reviewing their services and nor should we. We have heard many times in these and consulting widely as part of that activity. This is debates that we should be less prescriptive in what we what good authorities will be doing regularly anyway. ask of authorities, while ensuring power is really pushed But that should not detract from or obstruct these down to communities. A local authority may already important new rights for communities and I do not impose restrictions or conditions that apply to all agree that they should be watered down in this way. persons bidding, as long as such restrictions or conditions Having said that, if a local authority and any are lawful and do not discriminate between bidders. groups that had submitted an expression of interest Any attempt by a local authority commissioning a can agree together that a service review is the most service to impose conditions or restrictions on some appropriate course of action, there is nothing to stop but not all persons bidding in the procurement exercise those groups withdrawing their formal interest and would risk being unlawful as being discriminatory. working with the authority to conduct such an exercise. I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw Leaving the power in the hands of the community their amendments. Yet, I understand the concerns that group ensures that the right is protected but gives the many noble Lords have about the Trojan horse issue— flexibility—where there is a good and proactive local whether employees, a charity or someone else is authority—that noble Lords are requesting. challenging just with the idea of someone else coming Amendments 197EC and 197ED impose an onerous in on the exercise. Clearly, all that has been proposed is duty and go beyond, for example, the best value duty a community right, and it is all about communities. consultation requirement, where the duty is to consult The question comes when the community has representatives of people who may be affected. Contacting challenged—I suspect that the community will have every individual resident and service user would constitute done that because of dissatisfaction—and the authority a significant new burden. Again, good authorities then says, “Well, we had better have a procurement already engage a wide range of service users and their exercise”. Certainly, if that exercise is beyond the EU representative groups as part of the commissioning figures there is no question that the exercise will be and engagement process, and should be designing and open. People will have put work in, as will have the commissioning services that best meet the needs of community bodies and so forth. However, I do not see their communities. circumstances in which that procurement exercise can somehow be limited, because that would be outside Amendment 197FAseeks to enable relevant authorities, the law of the land because of our involvement with when assessing bids in a procurement exercise, to the European Community. We must be careful not to apply any criteria they consider appropriate relating to kid ourselves about that. how they might promote or improve the social, economic or environmental well-being of their area as a result of However, having said that, everything in these proposals the procurement. This amendment is unnecessary as it is about the community’s right. In my view, the community is already possible for relevant authorities to apply would be exercising that right because it thinks that it such criteria within the limits of procurement law. Any can do things better and that the service that it is criteria applied beyond these limitations could be unlawful getting would be better in the future than it received in and subject to legal challenge. the past. 1443 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1444

Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I am pleased that the to general tender and there is not a two-person or noble Lord understood the concerns raised on this six-person challenge from inside the organisation. There important group of amendments, spoken to by the is an existing department full of staff who are currently noble Lord, Lord Greaves. Is there nothing that the working for the council and who may or may not be Minister can offer us in terms of looking at this able to take part in the competitive tendering exercise. further? Perhaps he may agree to consult with colleagues The more I think about this, the more it seems to be a and come back at Third Reading. crucial point, and it would be very helpful if the Minister could come back to us on it. This is a very Lord Shutt of Greetland: What I will say is this: I new point and perhaps some clarification of it at have been giving some thoughts regarding guidance, Third Reading, if only to put the Government’s view to which there has been reference all along. Guidance on it on the record, would be extremely helpful. I hope will be given and notes will be available from the that that will happen. department, but there may be circumstances where There are times when I listen to Ministers reading that guidance will be, “This is something on which you out their briefing when I think, “If that is the best they make your own mind up”. I am sure that the department can do, I must be on to a good point”. The attempt to will cull the debate and look at where offers ought to rubbish my amendment concerning a service review by be made. Certainly, if guidance is required, guidance suggesting that it would involve consulting every single will be given. However, there will be instances where, resident, which would not be possible, was really rather because we are talking about localism, local people derisory. I do not blame my noble friend for that; he and people on local authorities will be making their has his briefing to read out. Councils and other bodies own minds up. consult users of services all the time and they know how to do it. It is not difficult and you do not have to Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Before the noble Lord be absolutely certain that you have consulted every sits down, can I ask whether there is any possibility of single resident. You put out a consultation by whatever guidance being available by Third Reading, even in means are reasonable. It might be through the internet, draft? leaflets, articles in local newspapers or whatever. Therefore, I thought that that response was a bit pathetic. Lord Shutt of Greetland: It is extremely unlikely that the noble Lord will get it as quickly as that, but I The Trojan horse argument is important but the believe that it will be available before 31 March. real problem arises when that Trojan horse is accidental. If you get a community that is really keen on taking Lord Greaves: Before my noble friend sits down and over a service and it has real local support but the before I stand up, perhaps I may ask a question which contract has to go out to tender and the community has just occurred to me. If a service—for example, the cannot possibly match what an outside commercial refuse and recycling service—goes out to a contract organisation can provide in terms of cost, then that and it is for well over £156,000, will an existing in-house community is not going to be very pleased. It is going provider be able to take part in that tendering exercise to say, “We challenged and these people from outside and compete against outside contractors in exactly the who have come in to make a profit have stolen our same way as it would under the old compulsory services away from us”. They might well have preferred competitive tendering system or under the system in the service to stay with the council rather than for that which councils sometimes put out a contract to test to happen. That kind of scenario will simply lose the market against their own in-house provision? Under public support. It is not about rights for communities, the community right to challenge, if a contract goes it is about communities potentially being set up to out to tender like that, will the in-house provider still provide rights for the commercial challenges from be allowed to take part in the exercise or will it be outside. The advice to councils is going to be absolutely doomed? vital. It has got to be clear, it has got to be strong and it has got to provide councils with all the safeguards Lord Shutt of Greetland: I may need to think about they need—not to stop communities challenging and that and write to my noble friend. However, it seems to taking services over—but to stop it being abused. me that the in-house provider here could be the “two or more employees”. Those in-house people whom my 9.30 pm noble friend speaks of would be the group of workers. This process is going to be very closely watched by That is how I think it would be done but, if I am a lot of people, including the unions. I should pay wrong about that, I shall let him know. It seems to me tribute to the help I have had from Unison in drafting that that is how the challenge would be used. However, some of these amendments and discussing these issues. if my noble friend is talking about procurement and But I am all in favour of residents and citizens and there is an existing body, I do not see any circumstances local people taking over services. I am all in favour of in which that existing body will not be able to participate groups of employees taking over running services, in the procurement exercise. I hope that that is helpful. because they can do it very well indeed. What I am not in favour of is a process which is going to be misused Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am grateful for that. I and end up with things happening which ministers tell realise that my noble friend has not had a chance to us they do not want to. I fear that this might happen. I think about that question but I think that the issue of am very grateful for all the time and effort that has “two or more employees” is totally irrelevant in this been put in to providing briefings and answers and case. We are talking about a challenge made by an everything else over the last few weeks on this; the outside body or organisation. The contract is put out more briefings I get, the more worried and concerned 1445 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1446

[LORD GREAVES] said in response to the last group. As it was Report I am. It may well be that it will end up back in your stage I could not come back on them then. He said, Lordships’ House if it all goes wrong in a few years’ “It’s all about community”. But what my noble friend time. For the time being, I beg leave to withdraw the and I are saying is that we fear that it is not. I very amendment. much welcomed his comment that guidance might well say, “Make your own minds up”. That is exactly Amendment 197EZA withdrawn. what one would want to see. But I wonder if I could Amendments 197EA to 197ED not moved. suggest to him that guidance might include some sort of flow chart which would assist authorities to understand what they can do and what they cannot do, and what Amendment 197F direction they have got to be thinking in. I also say Moved by Baroness Hanham that my noble friend Lord Greaves’ point about how a 197F: Clause 71, page 61, line 33, leave out subsection (4) and procurement exercise allows for a tender from the insert— authority—from the in-house service—is very serious. “(4) A relevant authority must specify— It may be one of those things where the answer is so (a) the minimum period that will elapse between— obvious that none of us can see it because it is blindingly (i) the date of the relevant authority’s decision to accept obvious. If it is not obvious, and if it is not answered an expression of interest, and in a way in which the Minister will understand we (ii) the date on which it will begin the procurement would regard as satisfactory, then it is so serious that exercise required by subsection (2) as a result of that we must not lose sight of it. We should not discard it acceptance, and now and we should return to it at Third Reading to (b) the maximum period that will elapse between those ensure that it is entirely clear. I hope that will not be dates. necessary. I beg to move. (4A) The relevant authority may specify different periods for different cases. Lord Shutt of Greetland: These matters are grouped (4B) The relevant authority must publish details of a specification under subsection (4) in such manner as it thinks fit (which must together. I thank the noble Baroness. There are four include publication on the authority’s website). amendments in the group and two have not been (4C) The relevant authority must comply with a specification moved. This is the third one and I take it that the under subsection (4).” fourth will not be moved. On that basis I respond to my noble friend Lady Hamwee. Amendment 197F agreed. Amendment 197FC would enable a relevant authority Amendments 197FA and 197FAA not moved. to ask a relevant body for any information it considered desirable in deciding whether to accept or reject an expression of interest. The amendment is unnecessary. Amendment 197FB Clause 69(1) already enables the Secretary of State to Tabled by Lord Greaves specify in regulations the information to be included 197FB: Clause 71, page 62, line 4, at beginning insert “Subject in an expression of interest. The majority of respondents to subsections (5) and (6)” to the consultation broadly agreed with our proposals on this and the policy statement placed in the Library Lord Greaves: My Lords, I think we have thrashed of the House sets out the information we intend to this to death now. I do not think there is anything else specify be included in an expression of interest. This to come. I will therefore not move it. information will enable the authority to decide whether Amendment 197FB not moved. there is one or more grounds for rejection. If expressions of interest do not include any of the required information, Amendment 197FBA not moved. we would expect relevant authorities to take a common- sense approach and simply ask for it. Clause 72 : Consideration of expression of interest: This amendment would enable authorities to place further provisions additional requirements, and potentially a disproportionate burden, on relevant bodies, and treat expressions of Amendment 197FC interest from different relevant bodies differently, which would be unfair and could potentially leave authorities Moved by Baroness Hamwee open to challenge. If the experience of implementing 197FC: Clause 72, page 62, line 7, at beginning insert— the community right to challenge shows that a relevant “()Arelevantauthority that is considering an expression of body may need to provide further information to interest from a relevant body may require the body to provide any enable authorities to take a decision on an expression information that the authority considers desirable in connection with its acceptance or rejection under section 71(1).” of interest, then we can consider whether we need to amend the regulations to allow for this. Baroness Hamwee: I shall not speak at much length. In the circumstances, I trust that my noble friend This amendment was tabled at the last stage as well. It will feel she does not need to press this amendment. would provide for a relevant authority being able to Following her other comments about guidance, I am require whatever information it thinks desirable. I sure that the resources of the department will provide daresay my noble friend will confirm that it is not guidance, flow charts and material in any form that necessary to state this because it is implicit or provided clearly gets over to authorities the information that they for elsewhere. The reason I am moving it is because I need. As I have indicated all along, I believe that all want to quickly comment on some of the things he these proposals are right, but, in the event, it is about 1447 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1448 trust and it is about communities; it is not about exposing big contracts to organisations under the Amendment 199 umbrella of something which has been done for communities. I trust that everyone has got that trust Moved by Lord Wills and that it will work in this way. 199: After Clause 74, insert the following new Clause— “Freedom of information and contracts Baroness Hamwee: I thank my noble friend for that (1) Any contract for any sum over £1 million made by a response. Of course, I shall not press the matter, but I relevant authority with any person after the coming into force of note that he talked in terms of the Secretary of State this section shall be deemed to include a freedom of information making regulations which will allow for certain provision. information to be requested. I am looking for a little (2) Where such a contract is to any extent performed by means more individuality than that. However, I shall use this of a sub-contract, that sub-contract shall be deemed to include a opportunity to add a coda to my point about the freedom of information provision. in-house service and procurement. I am not asking for (3) In this section a “freedom of information provision” an answer now, but I shall put the question on record. means a provision stipulating that all information relating to the In order to take part in it, would the in-house service performance of the contract which is held by— have to form a separate, new entity in order to be able (a) the contractor, to bid? That would seem to involve a lot of extra (b) a sub-contractor, and bureaucracy and work, which I do not think any of us (c) any other person on behalf of the contractor or would want to see. I shall put my noble friend out of sub-contractor, his agony and beg leave to withdraw the amendment. is, notwithstanding any contrary provision, deemed to be held on behalf of the relevant authority for the purpose Amendment 197FC withdrawn. of section 3(2)(b) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 or regulation 3(2)(b) of the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Amendment 197FD not moved. (4) A freedom of information provision shall not require— (a) a contractor to disclose to the relevant authority any Amendments 197G and 197H communication between itself and a professional legal adviser in connection with the giving of legal advice to it Moved by Baroness Hanham with respect to its obligations, liabilities or rights in relation to the relevant authority under the contract; 197G: Clause 72, page 62, line 13, leave out subsection (3) and insert— (b) a sub-contractor to disclose to the contractor any communication between a professional legal adviser and “(3) A relevant authority must specify the maximum period itself in connection with the giving of legal advice to it that will elapse between— with respect to its obligations, liabilities or rights in (a) the date on which it receives an expression of interest relation to the contractor under the contract.” submitted by a relevant body, and (b) the date on which it notifies the relevant body of its decision in respect of the expression of interest. Lord Wills: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 200 and 201 in my name on the Order (3A) The relevant authority may specify different periods for different cases. Paper. The amendments are similar to those that I tabled in Committee, so I do not intend to detain your (3B) The relevant authority must publish details of a specification under subsection (3) in such manner as it thinks fit (which must Lordships’ House long by rehearsing at length the include publication on the authority’s website). arguments that I made for them then. (3C) A relevant authority that receives an expression of interest However, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, was good from a relevant body in accordance with this Chapter must notify enough to write to me on 18 July setting out why the the relevant body in writing of the period within which it expects Government felt that they could not accept those to notify the relevant body of its decision in respect of the amendments, and placed a copy of that letter in the expression of interest. Library. Despite all the fine words in that letter— (3D) The relevant authority must give the notification under some noble Lords may even have read it—about freedom subsection (3C) — of information, I found the arguments advanced by (a) where the expression of interest is one to which a the Government so weak that I felt I had no alternative specification under section 70(2) relates and is made within a period so specified, within the period of 30 days but to table the amendments once more in the hope beginning immediately after the end of the period so that the Government might think again. specified, or I hope that I have good reason to think that the (b) otherwise, within the period of 30 days beginning with Government might think again about the amendments, the day on which the relevant authority receives the designed to promote transparency, because of the expression of interest.” pledge that they made in their coalition agreement, to, 197H: Clause 72, page 62, line 17, leave out from “of” to “extend the scope of the Freedom of Information Act to provide “and” in line 18 and insert “its decision in respect of the expression greater transparency”. of interest within the period specified by it under subsection (3),” However, as I set out in Committee, if the Bill works Amendments 197G and 197H agreed. as it is intended to, far from extending the scope of freedom of information, it will restrict it. This comes in the context that, nearly a year and a half into the Clause 73 :Supplementary life of the Government, they have done virtually nothing to extend the scope of the Freedom of Information Amendment 198 not moved. Act beyond the actions taken by the previous Government. 1449 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1450

[LORD WILLS] amendment was designed simply to bring local By any account, the Government have a considerable government into line with central government. In this way to go if they are to demonstrate that they made case I have to say that the Government did not produce that commitment to transparency 18 months ago in a weak argument for the rejection of this amendment. good faith. They produced no argument at all. The sum of their In his letter, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, rejected case was: what is now Amendment 199, which deals with the “The Government is not currently convinced of the need to question of what information the public can obtain make this a statutory requirement”. under the Freedom of Information Act about the Why are the Government not convinced? I am afraid work done for a local authority under contract. He did the letter was silent on this point. We know for a fact so on the grounds that the Government are committed that the performance of local authorities in delivering to reducing the regulatory burden on business. That is freedom of information in compliance with the legislation a commendable commitment. I say that as someone is variable. It can be excellent but can also be poor. who set up a small business and ran it for 12 years. But Why would a Government claiming to be committed it is not an overriding commitment. However irksome to transparency not compel local authorities to adopt business may find regulations, Governments still impose a mechanism which has been shown to improve the them in the public interest. This Government have, for performance of central government and which, by any example, quite recently proposed to do that for the stretch of the imagination, hardly constitutes an onerous banking sector. burden on local authorities. The Government say that they believe that freedom I recognise that the Minister may not be in a of information is in the public interest, so presumably, position this evening to accept these amendments, no if businesses want to profit from taxpayers’ money, matter how keen he might be to do so. But given all the they should be prepared to account for the use of it to Government’s fine words about transparency, could the taxpayer. I should be grateful if the Minister could he at the very least agree to look at an appropriate say in his reply whether the Government agree with timescale for ensuring that the provisions of this Bill that principle. If so, why are they resisting the amendment, do not undermine, as they currently do, the Government’s especially as I have reworded it to ensure that very commitment to increasing transparency and could he small businesses are not caught by it because there is undertake to come back and tell your Lordships’ now a limit of £1 million on the size of the contract House the results of his investigations at Third Reading? that would be covered? That is particularly the case as We know that the longer politicians stay in power, the the Freedom of Information Act and regulations already more they like it and the less they like any fetters on contain exemptions to protect the legitimate interests the exercise of it. The value of freedom of information of business—for example, trade secrets or information legislation and transparency is precisely the fact that it likely to prejudice their commercial interests. is a fetter on the powerful. Eighteen months ago this Much the same arguments apply in support of Government suggested that they understood the Amendment 200, which would bring companies controlled importance of fettering those in power. I hope the by local authorities within the scope of the Freedom Minister can now demonstrate that they are still committed of Information Act. In his letter, the Minister rejected to that, not simply in words but in actions as well. that on the grounds that, “it would create uncertainty for requests about the coverage of Lord True: My Lords, I must intervene. Obviously the FOI Act given that companies could pass in and out on the noble Lord has not developed his arguments at the transfer of shares”. same length as in Committee but I am afraid I am as I agree that there might occasionally—not often, but unconvinced by them now as I was then. It is certainly occasionally—be some such uncertainty, but it could a worthy thing to pay lip service to freedom of information easily be clarified. It hardly constitutes a compelling but one has to think about the practical impact of argument for keeping secret from the public important what is proposed. Although the noble Lord says that information about how their money is being spent. in Amendment 199 he places a limit on the extent of Clearly the Minister recognised that this was not the the burden by specifying contracts for any sum over strongest of arguments as he then added: £1 million, this is vitiated by the fact that his amendment “Where a company is only partly owned by the public sector, goes on to say: there is an increased likelihood that areas of its business will be “Where such a contract is to any extent performed by means unrelated to the public sector”. of a sub-contract, that sub-contract shall be deemed to include a That is true but it is not a reason for keeping secret freedom of information provision”. those areas of business which are paid for by the And so on. It is like unwrapping a Russian doll. As we public and operate on the public’s behalf. It is not discussed in Committee, many of these large contracts beyond the ingenuity of all those clever officials and may relate to construction, for example, where many lawyers who work for the Government to draft accordingly. small businesses will be involved. This may be onerous for small businesses and those businesses may well find themselves caught by the way that this amendment 9.45 pm is drafted. The only people exempted are legal advisers Finally, the Minister rejected what is now to those bodies. Indeed, any other person acting on Amendment 201, designed to provide greater transparency behalf of a sub-contractor, such as the bookkeeper of for the way in which local authorities discharge their a small business, may be brought in to the scope of responsibilities under the Freedom of Information that amendment, as I read it. I should like the Minister Act 2000 and so to improve their performance. This to reflect carefully before going in that direction. 1451 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1452

I argued that the new clause proposed by Amendment Indeed, I detect certain sympathy on the detail of 201 could be absurdly onerous on local authorities. Amendment 199 from the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. The noble Lord’s amendment uses “relevant authority”, There are matters in it that are worthy of further which means that any parish council or community consideration by government and I hope that they will council in this country would have to publish annual not simply reject the topic out of hand even if they reports on the Freedom of Information Act, cannot quite accept the wording of the amendments environmental regulations and information on the for reasons which have been advanced tonight and number of requests that it had received. All the provisions perhaps others. here would apply to every authority in the country. On the new clause that would be inserted by My own council is very willing to comply with the Amendment 201, it is not an extraordinary demand to Act—anybody can ask a question about it at council; make of a public body that it should keep a record of, we had a question on it answered two council meetings or at least do a report on, requests for freedom of ago and this information was given—but the cost of information. I should have thought that this was a doing so is already more than £100,000 a year. With reasonably appropriate matter for a council audit the greatest respect, I do not think that extending this committee—I serve on such a committee—to have degree of reporting responsibility down the level of before it as it is information about the governance of the merest parish council and community council in the authority. It does not seem to me that the amendment this country, let alone larger authorities, is appropriate seeks to impose an inherently onerous obligation. It is or necessary. one that should be within the knowledge of members While respecting the enthusiasm of the noble Lord, of that authority. I think that routing it through the Lord Wills, I hope that my noble friend will resist his audit committees, or possibly standards committees, amendment for the reasons that I and others have of councils, would be a good way to ensure that given and that we can proceed with the rest of the Bill. elected members do not lose sight of the council’s obligations and that they ensure that their officers actually comply with them. I hope that the Minister Lord Lucas: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wills, will accede to my noble friend’s request to think about is quite right that enthusiasm for freedom of information this and to perhaps bring something back at Third seems to wane the longer a party is in power. He is Reading. It is an important issue and although sometimes, perhaps sitting there, safely in the far corner of the obviously, there are difficulties in complying with requests, Back Benches, so that he does not get too heavily there is no reason why these issues should not be stamped on by his own Front Bench. The Labour examined and, in the interest of good governance, Party quite clearly lost enthusiasm for the Freedom of improvements made to the local regime. Information Bill in the course of taking it through Parliament. It was by the narrowest of squeaks that it survived at all, and that was only six months into The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord government. If it has developed a new affection for it McNally): My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble now, I am delighted, but I do not expect it to last. Lord, Lord Wills, for moving the amendment. It is well known that he was himself, when in office, a However, on our Front Bench, we have Mr Freedom champion of freedom of information. I am very grateful of Information himself. My noble friend has been for the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, dedicated to this cause for a long time, so I hope that about my own record. I failed to persuade Jim Callaghan he will take a constructive view of what we might do. I to put freedom of information into the programme of share many of the concerns of my noble friend Lord the 1976-79 Labour Government, but I was very happy True and do not think that this amendment does the that it was with Liberal Democrat votes that the trick. However, more openness in local government Freedom of Information Act that is now on the statute and more consideration of which of the larger contracts book passed through this House. I am sad to read that in local government should be open to freedom of the Freedom of Information Act is among Mr Blair’s information would be consistent with the way in which major regrets of his premiership as it remains one of the Government are going; for instance, in considering the things that I am most proud of being associated whether examination boards should be subject to the with. Freedom of Information Act or putting UCAS on the list of bodies subject to it, as we have a draft regulation I think that the noble Lord, Lord Wills, is a little to do at the moment. If the processes of the Health ungenerous about the approach of this Government. and Social Care Bill lead to a substantial transfer of It is not true that we have done nothing since coming what is currently public activity away from the public into office. In fact, quite the reverse is the case. I think gaze, I shall propose that we make sure that it is that the initiative that this Government have shown in brought back swiftly through the Freedom of Information relation to freedom of information and transparency Act. I do not see this Bill as leading to large-scale has been quite revolutionary. The Government are transfers of activity away from the public gaze into committed to extending the scope of the Freedom of obscurity, but there should be some protection in case Information Act and to increased transparency and there is. I hope that we get a constructive answer from have made considerable progress in this since May my noble friend. 2010. For instance, as part of a package of measures announced in January, we have already introduced primary and secondary legislation to extend the Act’s Lord Beecham: My Lords, I shall resist the temptation scope and are currently consulting on more than 200 to stamp on my noble friend; it is a highly resistible further bodies in this regard. In order to ensure that proposition. I support the thrust of his amendments. the Act continues to meet the needs of its users, the 1453 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1454

[LORD MCNALLY] is proposing and consulting on an extension to the Act as a whole will be subject to post-legislative scrutiny. types of organisation to which an open data policy I do not think that noble Lords fully appreciate just would apply. The Freedom of Information Act will how revolutionary that is. Indeed, when I urged that also be subject, as I have said, to post-legislative we bring forward post-legislative scrutiny, some of the scrutiny to see how it is working in practice. Further strongest supporters of freedom of information were policy in this area will be developed in the light of the slightly nervous that the Act would come under too evidence drawn from these sets of work. much criticism. What I say to them, and say to supporters I am basically saying that the points raised by the of the Act now, is that post-legislative scrutiny and the noble Lord, Lord Wills, are interesting and certainly assessments built into it will give the opportunity to will be studied, but it is necessary to get our ducks in a prove what I still believe: that freedom of information row. We will do a cost benefit analysis on freedom of underpins good governance. information. That has already been commissioned and will feed into the work of post-legislative scrutiny. 10 pm My department will deliver by the end of this year a Alongside this is another government initiative that post-legislative scrutiny memorandum that will be the I believe is genuinely radical. The Cabinet Office is basis of the work by the Justice Select Committee that currently undertaking a public consultation on an will start early in the new year working out and testing open data strategy, aimed at establishing how to ensure the practicalities of the Freedom of Information Act. a greater culture of openness and transparency in the Bodies will be able to give evidence to the Justice delivery of public services. However, there are still Select Committee on that work. As I said, the open challenges to be faced, one of which the noble Lord data consultation will close on 27 October and will be highlights here. It is vital that we ensure that changes followed by a White Paper. in the way that public services are delivered do not I do not accept the suggestion of the noble Lord, undermine our progress in enhancing transparency. Lord Wills, that the Government are not active in this We need to meet this challenge through post-legislative area. The transparency agenda will make the Freedom scrutiny and the open data consultation. We are taking of Information Act look like a poor relation of a a wholesale look at where improvements can and Government who are really committed to transparency should be made. This is the weakness in the noble and will push this ahead. In the light of those assurances Lord quite legitimately using amendments to the Bill that what we really want to do is make sure that we to raise these issues. We must look across the board at have our ducks in a row before we move forward, where we take transparency and open data and not rather than any hostility to the ideas that the noble just in the area of local government. It is important Lord has raised, I hope that he feels ready to withdraw that we assess carefully the likely impact of any change his amendment. against the benefits that it will bring to ensure that transparency is both maintained and enhanced—but Lord Wills: I am extremely grateful to everyone with due regard to the burdens that might be imposed who has spoken in what has been a not particularly on the public sector and those providing public services lengthy but very revealing debate. I am grateful to the under contract. noble Lord, Lord True, for his contribution. It reminded It would not be right to rush through solutions now everybody of the battles that still need to be fought for which might appear attractive but do not ultimately the public to get the mechanisms that they need to provide the most effective solution or which address hold those who serve them properly to account. the issues in a piecemeal fashion. Within this context, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for it would not be appropriate, as proposed by the noble although I think he disagreed with the wording of my Lord, simply to amend the Freedom of Information amendments—I have always made it clear that I am Act in relation to local government. The Act covers very happy for them to be revised—I detected a sympathy more than 100,000 bodies—central government, the towards the general thrust of them. I hope I am not education sector, the police, the Armed Forces, and wrong in that. I join him in paying tribute to the the health service—and our approach should be consistent Minister as he has a very honourable, long and splendid across the board. Where change is proposed, we should record in campaigning for transparency and freedom assess whether the change should be made in respect of information. Any criticism I might be about to of all or most of these bodies, and whether alternative make does not reflect on him personally. He has a very solutions are available. long and honourable record in this field. I would like to reassure noble Lords that our opposition I agree with him. This bit of legislation will benefit, to the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord I am absolutely confident, from post-legislative scrutiny. Wills, does not spring from any lack of commitment Post-legislative scrutiny was a very welcome constitutional to the cause of transparency. The Government are innovation brought in by the previous Government. I committed to driving the transparency agenda forward am wholly in favour of it and I think this legislation, with pace. Where our work demonstrates that measures as all legislation, will benefit from it. I agree with him are necessary to increase transparency and accountability, on that but there I am afraid our agreement ends. I ask these will be taken. The noble Lord, Lord Wills, is an him to look at Hansard tomorrow to see what I old campaigner so he knows darn well that to give a actually said about the record of this Government. I specific detailed timetable on this is simply not possible. did not say they had done nothing. I said they had The Government recognise that there is a strong argument done nothing that they had not inherited from initiatives for increased transparency by bodies in receipt of taken by the previous Government. Everything he has public funds. The Government’s open data consultation mentioned was set in train by the previous Government. 1455 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1456

In the coalition agreement they said they would increase 10.09 pm transparency. I take that as going beyond what the previous Government did. That is where, I am afraid, Division on Amendment 199 I was very disappointed in the Minister’s response. In all sorts of other areas of constitutional legislation Contents 17; Not-Contents 136. which we have debated at great length in this House they have rushed it through with great vigour and energy Amendment 199 disagreed. brushing aside, getting all their ducks in a row and all those other metaphors the Minister brought out just Division No. 3 now. There has been none of that. It was so urgent and so important it had to be ramrodded through Parliament CONTENTS at great speed with consequences we are going to Bassam of Brighton, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. suffer from for a very long time. Beecham, L. McAvoy, L. Bradley, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Why is transparency for this Government so much Collins of Highbury, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. less important than all those other constitutional Crawley, B. Scotland of Asthal, B. measures? In my view it should be even more important Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] and the Government are showing absolutely no B. Whitaker, B. urgency in this field. If this Bill simply left the situation Finlay of Llandaff, B. Wills, L. [Teller] as it was I could perhaps sit down now and say, “Oh Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. well, give the Minister a bit more time to see what happens”, but it does not. When this Bill goes through, NOT CONTENTS as it will, if it works as intended, and I am sure it will Addington, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. more or less, it will not leave things as they are. It will Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Hamwee, B. decrease, perhaps significantly, the scope of the Freedom Alderdice, L. Hanham, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Harris of Richmond, B. of Information Act. The people we serve, the voters Ashdown of Norton-sub- Henley, L. and taxpayers, will suddenly find they cannot get Hamdon, L. Hill of Oareford, L. information they think they have a right to know Ashton of Hyde, L. Hooper, B. because suddenly great swathes of services will be Astor of Hever, L. Howell of Guildford, L. removed from their right to know. That cannot be Attlee, E. Hussain, L. right. The Minister said they will do it when they get Ballyedmond, L. Hussein-Ece, B. Barker, B. Inglewood, L. they get their ducks in a row and all the rest of Best, L. James of Blackheath, L. it—some time, never. He cannot even commit to coming Black of Brentwood, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. back at Third Reading— Blencathra, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. Boswell of Aynho, L. Jolly, B. Bridgeman, V. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Lord McNally: There has been an absolute tsunami Brinton, B. Lee of Trafford, L. of transparency. My right honourable friend Francis Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Lexden, L. Maude has been frightening the life out of Whitehall L. Lindsay, E. and his ministerial colleagues by the way he has been Browne of Belmont, L. Lingfield, L. Browning, B. Loomba, L. forcing through transparency and the transparency Byford, B. Lucas, L. agenda. It really is no good the noble Lord, Lord Caithness, E. McNally, L. Wills, rewriting the history of the past 18 months. In Cameron of Dillington, L. Maddock, B. fact, this has been a period of real progress in transparency Cathcart, E. Mancroft, L. in government. He should have the decency to Chalker of Wallasey, B. Maples, L. Colville of Culross, V. Marland, L. acknowledge it. Cope of Berkeley, L. Marlesford, L. Cormack, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Lord Wills: If the Minister would actually listen to Cotter, L. Montrose, D. Craigavon, V. Morris of Bolton, B. what I was saying—I would be delighted if that was De Mauley, L. Newton of Braintree, L. the case. I would sit down happily. I am sitting here on Deben, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, the Back Benches. I have no need to sign up to the Dholakia, L. B. Front Bench position any more on anything. I sit here Dixon-Smith, L. Noakes, B. quite happily committed to greater transparency. If Dobbs, L. Northover, B. Eaton, B. Norton of Louth, L. what the Minister had just said were the case I would Eden of Winton, L. O’Cathain, B. sit down happily now, but it is not the case. The Empey, L. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. coalition agreement says greater transparency. All the Falkner of Margravine, B. Parminter, B. Government are doing is carrying through what the Flight, L. Perry of Southwark, B. previous Government had already put in place. That is Fookes, B. Phillips of Sudbury, L. the record. It is not rewriting history. It is there firmly Fowler, L. Popat, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Randerson, B. on the record. All I asked the Minister to do at the end Gardiner of Kimble, L. Rawlings, B. was to set a timescale—maybe next year, maybe two Gardner of Parkes, B. Reay, L. years or sometime this Parliament. Absolutely nothing Garel-Jones, L. Rennard, L. he said suggests that he going to do anything in this German, L. Ribeiro, L. Parliament to make sure that this Bill does not restrict Glendonbrook, L. Risby, L. Gold, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. the scope of the Freedom of Information Act. On that Goodlad, L. Sassoon, L. basis, with great reluctance, I am afraid I am going ask Greaves, L. Scott of Needham Market, B. to test the opinion of the House. Grey-Thompson, B. Seccombe, B. 1457 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1458

Selkirk of Douglas, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. assets with only potential future community value, Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Tope, L. should be excluded. The BRC is also seeking full and Sharkey, L. True, L. genuine opportunities for businesses to be consulted Sharp of Guildford, B. Tugendhat, L. and listened to during the development of this legislation Sheikh, L. Tyler, L. Shipley, L. and when the listing process is established. Verma, B. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Wakefield, Bp. In short, the BRC is seeking amendments to the Bill Skelmersdale, L. to help provide clarity as to what “community value” Stedman-Scott, B. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Stephen, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. may encompass and to ensure that potential building Stoneham of Droxford, L. Walmsley, B. usage and undeveloped land are excluded. To this end, Storey, L. Wasserman, L. I hope that Amendment 201A is self-explanatory. Stowell of Beeston, B. Wei, L. I realise that Amendment 202A may also be inelegant Strathclyde, L. Wheatcroft, B. Taverne, L. Wigley, L. and clumsy, but its purpose is to avoid distorting Taylor of Holbeach, L. Wilcox, B. markets for property and land and the legendary Thomas of Gresford, L. Younger of Leckie, V. incidence of the law of unintended consequences and to protect the proper behaviour of markets—that is, to 10.21 pm accelerate economic growth. I understand and concur with the Government in their emphasis on growth in Amendments 200 and 201 not moved. their planning arguments but sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander, and attention should be paid Clause 75 : List of assets of community value to business interests in their analysis of what will happen if the legislation serves in any way to impede Amendment 201A economic growth taking place at this time. I beg to move. Moved by Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville 201A: Clause 75, page 63, line 33, after second “land” insert Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I apologise at this “(except land where privately owned), assets, services and facilities time of night, but I am going to take a little time both in its area that are currently” in responding to the first amendment and in going Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, this through the amendments that are down in my name. is the first time in my parliamentary life that I have In Committee we discussed a lot the concerns of found myself moving two initial amendments to be noble Lords in relation to some aspects of the provisions followed by 19 government ones, which in turn secrete within these clauses, and I agreed to take those away in their midst a single Cross-Bench one, to be moved and consider them further. I do not think that the by the highly experienced noble Lord, Lord Cameron noble Lords were on the whole opposed to the principles of Dillington. I am also conscious that when today’s of the provisions; they were just concerned about the business started, this group of amendments was the implementation. haven towards which the Government were sailing. There were particular concerns that the provisions I am moving my two amendments on behalf of the could act as a disincentive to landowners who are British Retail Consortium, the BRC, which supports currently making their land available for community in principle greater localism in decision-making and use, and could impact on their ability to dispose of welcomes the Localism Bill. It has been active throughout their land to family members or through inheritance. the Bill’s passage and has supported the Government’s There were also concerns that the provisions could focus on facilitating greater business participation within have a detrimental impact on the sale of going-concern the decentralisation process. Although significant businesses, and that the provisions were open to vexatious improvements have been made, though, there are still nominations from individuals with no real desire or areas of substantial concern for retailers that, if left ability to purchase the asset in question. There were unresolved, will increase uncertainty for business and also calls for greater certainty to be put on the face of could reduce the potential for economic growth. the Bill regarding the definition of an asset of community Your Lordships’ House will be familiar with the value and the length of the moratorium periods. state of retail markets at present. Although my only We have been working over the Summer Recess home is now in rural Wiltshire, only a blind man could with interested parties to address these concerns, and I miss the effects of a struggling economy on the nation’s am therefore going to beg to move a series of amendments high street. In the eyes of the BRC, the clauses covering that will provide greater certainty and clarity and will the community right to buy have the potential to minimise any unintended consequences. As I said, I distort markets for property and land, as well as hope the House will forgive me for taking a little time having unintended consequences on the performance to go through these. of businesses impacted by assets being placed on a As for the amendments proposed by the noble statutory list. I am using this more clumsy definition Lord, Lord Brooke, I say now that I do not think that because listed buildings, or listed assets, have another, the response I have got is adequate, and I am hoping more specific definition. that by the time I get to the end of what I am saying The BRC is calling for maximum certainty about the Box will have provided an answer for me. If not, I what is and is not a “community asset”. In its view, am going to have to write to him. there should be a clear national framework within In summary, these amendments will place a definition which local decisions are taken. It is calling for minimum of community asset on the face of the Bill; clarify that uncertainty for current owners and would-be investors. individuals will not be able to nominate assets to go on Assets such as undeveloped land and buildings, or the list; set out a number of exempted disposals, 1459 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1460 including transfers of land within families and by itself recognises as benefiting its social well-being. We inheritance, and business-to-business going-concern want to ensure that those nominating an asset for sales; put the length of the moratorium periods on to listing do so on behalf of their community, rather than the face of the Bill; and remove various delegated on an individual’s whim. Therefore, we have tabled powers. government Amendments 202G, 202H and 202J, which We placed in the Library a policy statement which will clarify Clause 77. They replace a delegated power we sent to everybody on 8 September and which with a provision in the Bill, which states that only explains these amendments and sets out our thinking voluntary or community bodies with a local connection about the content of the regulations in more detail. will be eligible to make community nominations, in addition to parish councils in England and community Perhaps I may pass over the amendments of the councils in Wales. There will be a need to define these noble Lord, Lord Brooke, for the moment. I hope that terms to ensure that eligibility is restricted only to local I get an answer that is nearer to what he was dealing groups who are concerned with the social well-being of with than the one that I have at the moment. I hope he the neighbourhood. Therefore, Amendment 202K will will forgive me for that. extend the existing delegated power in Clause 77(4) to I turn to the government amendments. Amendments define “voluntary or community body” and provide 202B and 202F place a definition of asset of community conditions to be met to demonstrate local connections value on the face of the Bill. A building or other land in regulations. is to be defined as an asset of community value if the following requirements are met: first, if its actual I come to Amendments 202L, 203 and 203A to current use furthers the social well-being and interests 203C. Amendment 203 removes the power to make of the local community, or a use in the recent past has regulations in Clause 79(5) on the giving of written done so; secondly, that that use is not an ancillary one, notice of an asset’s inclusion on or removal from the such as where farmland is used for the annual village list, including how to do so when the local authority bonfire; and thirdly, it is realistic to think that there does not have a name or address. Amendment 202L will be a use which furthers social well-being in the provides, instead, that where it does not appear future, whether or not this is exactly the same as “reasonably practicable” for the local authority to give existing use. This means that for an asset which already the written notice, it must take reasonable alternative furthers social well-being or interest, it must be realistic steps to bring the notice to the person’s attention. that it will continue to do so. And for one which did so Amendment 203B removes the power to make regulations in the recent past, it must be realistic to think that in Clause 81(4) on the form and content of the list of there will be community use again within the next five unsuccessful community nominations. Instead we will years—and that is the period for which a listing would make clear with Amendment 203A that local authorities last. may remove an unsuccessfully nominated asset from Amendment 202F clarifies that social interests can the list after five years if they so wish. While it is on include cultural, recreational and sporting interests. the list of unsuccessful assets, the entry must give Each local authority operating the scheme will refer to reasons for it not being included as an asset of community this definition when deciding whether a building or value. Amendment 203C removes the power in other land should be listed as an asset of community Clause 82(2) to make regulations on how the lists of value, and in the light of these amendments we are community assets and unsuccessfully nominated assets proposing to remove, through Amendment 202E, the are published without any replacement provisions. power for the Government to set out matters that local Removing these delegated powers will provide more authorities must take into account in deciding whether certainty about how the scheme will operate and recognises a nominated asset should be listed. These amendments that local authorities do not need prescription from are in line not only with concerns that noble Lords central government. have raised but, importantly, with the results of our Turning to Amendments 203D and 203H, in recent consultation exercise, in which 80 per cent of Committee I indicated the types of disposals that we respondents agreed that local authorities should have intended to exempt from these provisions, including the power to decide what constitutes an asset of business-to-business transactions where the existing community value based on a broad definition and the business is sold as a going concern and the disposal of list of exclusions. listed land that forms part of a larger estate. The purpose of these amendments is to ensure that the 10.30 pm provisions do not act as a disincentive to landowners I also remind the House that we intend to exclude who already offer their land for the use of the community, residential premises and associated land from listing in that they do not have an adverse impact on thriving unless it is integral to an asset such as a pub or a shop. business. We will also exclude land of operational use, such as Amendment 203D sets out some of the exempt major transport networks. That will be set out in relevant disposals in the Bill. These are: disposals regulations. In light of what the Government have made as a gift; disposals made due to the inheritance brought forward, I hope my noble friend Lord Brooke of the land; disposals between members of the same will be content to withdraw his amendment when I get family—the definition of “family member” that we around to it. are proposing is set out in Amendment 203H; disposals Amendments 202G to 202K move on to the nominations where only part of the land has been listed as an asset process. It is important that the list of assets of community of community value; disposals of businesses as a value reflects the buildings and land that the community going concern; disposals occasioned by the resignation 1461 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1462

[BARONESS HANHAM] Lord Cameron of Dillington: My Lords, I rise to or death of a partner in a firm of trustees of a trust; speak to my Amendment 203ZA and to ask one or and transfers between trustees, a trust and a settler, two questions about the Government’s new amendments and between a trust and a beneficiary. and proposals. However, before doing so, I should like We are retaining the power to specify further exempt to thank the Government for listening to the debate disposals in regulations, and we intend to add further and to the concerns of this House in Committee, and detail in regulations with regard to disposals of part-listed for listing to the numerous comments they have received land. We will continue to work with key interested from outside bodies. In particular, I thank the noble parties to develop the contents of the regulations. A Baroness for her understanding and flexibility throughout full list of the exemptions that we propose to make all this. While I am not totally satisfied with what we through regulations is contained in a policy statement have now, it is fair to say that we can work within the which I laid in the House Library on 8 September. In rules that she has set out. I still think that the red tape developing this list we have listened to the views of is a good example of what all Governments do, which interested parties and those who responded to is to go over the top. However, the Government having consultation. moved so far and the fact that we have had extensive debates, we—or certainly I—will accept where we are Amendments 203E to 203G and Amendment 203J now. set out the timeframes that will apply, and offer reassurance that they cannot be changed except by further primary My amendment is designed to pre-empt the regulations legislation. A number of noble Lords have made a that, I gather, will give the landowner only 28 days to strong case, both inside and outside the Chamber, for appeal for a review of the nomination of his or her the value of certainty in relation to the length of these asset. This is a short period in which to prepare a case periods. Therefore, we propose to set the following and supply the necessary evidence. Such haste is not moratorium periods: six weeks for the interim period warranted because such a review will probably take during which a community group can decide to trigger place at a time when the assets are nominated rather the full moratorium; six months for the full period of than when an asset is about to be sold. Therefore, the moratorium; and 18 months for the protected there is unlikely to be any real urgency at this time. period during which property owners can sell the asset More importantly, the asset is actually on the list without being subject to another moratorium. These until it is taken off and the community’s interests periods will all run from the date on which the local therefore remain protected during any pause, and thus authority is notified of the intention to sell a listed a delay is to the community’s advantage and not the asset. landowner’s. It is therefore right that the latter should In the public consultation there was a clear consensus have more time to prepare their case for appeal. In my for an interim moratorium of six weeks and a protected amendment I have suggested a period of 60 days. I period of 18 months. In addition, just over half of hope that the Government can agree with me. those who responded supported a full moratorium I have three questions on the proposals put forward period of at least six months. We have heard compelling by the noble Baroness—actually, my third question evidence from the voluntary and community sector relates not to those proposals but to part of this that six months is the minimum realistic time needed chapter. My first question relates to Amendment 202H to raise funding and to put a business case together in on nominations from voluntary or community bodies order to make a bid. In addition, Amendment 203J with a local connection. I am concerned about the use removes the delegated power to prescribe moratorium of this provision and the possibility of vexatious claims, lengths in regulations. I hope noble Lords will recognise nominations and proposals. There need to be firm that we have taken the necessary steps to address rules to prevent them. I realise that these rules will, I concerns raised at Report, and that the amendments hope, be forthcoming in the intended regulations, but I we have proposed provide greater clarity with regard was hoping for some indication of the Government’s to these provisions. I hope, therefore, that noble Lords thinking at this stage. How longstanding does a group will feel free to support them. have to be before it can put forward a nomination? If I may, I can now respond to the noble Lord, How many people have to be involved? Is there a Lord Brooke. The definition in Amendments 202B to percentage of the population of the community who 202F sets out that the asset must already be of a must be involved? Do they have to be registered as community value, currently, or in the recent past. The charities, or if they are sports organisations or other reference to potential use is to allow community groups clubs, do they have to be affiliated to a regional or to develop options for future use of such buildings. national body? What is to stop a husband and wife or The definition covers only social interest and well-being. two neighbours forming the “Ambridge Tiddlywinks It does not include economic considerations. We have Society” today and trying to register a piece of land also sought to exempt business-to-business going-concern tomorrow? I hope that the Minister can provide helpful disposals. I hope that answers the noble Lord’s concerns—I words of wisdom on that. think he was talking about land that was also owned As to my second question, what is the reason for by business and clearly there, unless the asset is or has the Government requiring lists of unsuccessful been assessed as being of community value, it would nominations? I am not complaining about that but I be excluded. want the reasons to be spelt out for me. Is it to put that I expect that the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, will land definitively beyond the reach of any community want to speak to his amendment, Amendment 203ZA, group and to make that knowledge public, or is it to before we move on to the debate. announce to the world that this land nearly made it 1463 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1464 and maybe next time, with a bit of careful rewording, order to be defined as being of community value, it will make it? If, as I hope, the latter is not the case, could be of some merit, as is the proposal from the why remove the nomination from the failed list after a noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington. period of five years, as opposed to there having to be a change of circumstances involved—which would seem Baroness Hanham: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to be a much better way forward? for the more or less general support for what we have Finally, I refer to Clause 80(6)(d), which states that done, and, in my turn, I thank all those who have regulations will provide for appeals against an adverse diligently attended meetings—not only the noble Lord, review of a decision to nominate an asset. As I understand Lord Cameron, but my noble friends Lord Gardiner, it—I am not sure that this remains the case, but I have Lord Cathcart and Lord Howard of Rising. I fear that seen it somewhere—the appeal will be judged by the I may have forgotten someone but there have been same council that carried out the review in the first great consultations, mostly over the summer, and I am place. This must be wrong. Everyone knows that whenever very grateful for the time that noble Lords have put in possible a local council, or for that matter any other to ensure that these provisions do not have the unintended body, will favour its own team against an outsider. consequences that were anticipated. Would the Government be prepared to rethink that The noble Lord, Lord Cameron, was the only person proposal? Would they be prepared to consider an to pose questions and perhaps I may turn to those. His independent outside body to look at such further amendment would give landowners 60 days to request appeals against a decision on review, and to state now the local authority to carry out an internal review of clearly on the Floor of the House that the regulations its decision to list an asset. We are now going to move will affirm that? from 28 days to six weeks, which is a bit longer, but we think that that will give a landowner time to decide 10.45 pm whether he needs to appeal the decision. The details of Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, concerns about the procedures for carrying out an internal review, the unintended consequences of the assets of community including who can do it, will, I am afraid, be in value provisions were raised at Second Reading and in regulations. I am sure that we will have an opportunity Committee. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Cathcart to talk about this further before then, but it is anticipated and I tabled amendments because of our concern. that that is what will happen. Therefore, I thank the Minister very much for her The process will be that the landowner will first be understanding and determination to ensure that the contacted by the local authority if the land has been Bill hit the right target in bringing forward the nominated by a community group. Therefore, in practice, Government’s amendments tonight. landowners will have been aware of the process well I also include in my acknowledgement and appreciation before they receive the formal notice of the local of the work undertaken the Bill team and, indeed, authority’s decision. Once a review has been requested, outside bodies such as the Country Land and Business it is proposed that the local authority will have six Association for securing practical solutions. The common weeks to conduct the review. We also intend to provide objective that we all share is vibrant communities for in the regulations that, if a local authority and the the future and I hope that the Bill as amended will landowner agree, this period can be extended. Therefore, help to fulfil that aspiration. I think that flexibility is built into that system. I was also asked who can nominate an asset and Lord Greaves: My Lords, I thank the Government about the voluntary and community body. Conditions for listening to the debate on this matter in Committee will be set out in the regulations to demonstrate a local and for coming forward with amendments which, by connection. The intention is to ensure that such groups and large, are very sensible. I particularly appreciate are genuinely concerned with the social well-being their picking up the ancillary use point that I raised in benefit of their community and that they are based in an amendment, a great deal of which makes sense. the relevant community or neighbourhood. This may Furthermore, I think that we all owe a debt to the include unincorporated groups, so as to allow groups noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, for the hard that have recently been set up to help save an asset. work that he put into this part of the Bill—not least There are many examples that have already taken because it meant that we could leave it to him and place where people have set up a group to try to save concentrate on other parts of the Bill. their pub or an asset. We know that that can and has happened. We do not feel that we ought to stand in the Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, we have way of such groups. However, we will look to see had an interesting debate at this late hour on this whether we need to place stricter requirements on group of amendments. I can offer the Government them as to whether they need to be incorporated or some measure of support tonight, as there is lots to recognised, very much as the noble Lord has said. I welcome in their proposals here, and they have clearly will come back to him on that as we make those listened to the concerns expressed in the House. regulations. The origin of some of the proposals can, of I am extremely grateful to all those who have given course, be found in the previous Administration. their time to do this. I hope that we have more or less Amendment 201A, moved by the noble Lord, Lord answered their concerns. I know you can never be Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, is not an amendment 100 per cent sure—there is bound to be somebody that we on these Benches can support, although his round about who does not think we have quite gone Amendment 202A , requiring the Secretary of State to far enough—but I think we have addressed all of the publish criteria by which an asset must be assessed in concerns that were raised. 1465 Localism Bill[LORDS] Localism Bill 1466

Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, if I (a) cultural interests; may say a word at the close of this debate, having (b) recreational interests; moved the original amendments that stimulated the (c) sporting interests;” admirable speech by my noble friend the Minister, I think that I am right in saying that I put down my Amendments 202B to 202F agreed. amendments either just before or at the same time as those of my noble friend the Minister. Therefore, my Clause 77 : Procedure for including land in list amendments did not take into account the amendments that the Government were putting down. However, I join everybody else in congratulating my noble friend Amendments 202G to 202K on and thanking her for the admirable series of Moved by Baroness Hanham amendments that the Government have provided. 202G: Clause 77, page 65, line 15, after “value” insert “only” As to what my noble friend very kindly said in 202H: Clause 77, page 65, line 27, leave out from “person” to response to my own amendments this evening—on end of line 28 and insert “that is a voluntary or community body which the whole debate was in the end hung—I will of with a local connection.” course read her response and compare notes with the 202J: Clause 77, page 65, line 32, leave out paragraph (b) British Retail Consortium. I do not expect there will 202K: Clause 77, page 65, line 33, at end insert— be a need to come back to this matter at Third “(za) the meaning in subsection (2)(b)(iii) of “voluntary or Reading, but nevertheless I reserve the possibility after community body”; I have had those conversations. I am most grateful for (zb) the conditions that have to be met for a person to have a all the contributions made in this short debate. I am local connection for the purposes of subsection (2)(b)(iii);” sure everyone will be delighted when I sit down. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. Amendments 202G to 202K agreed.

Amendment 201A withdrawn. Clause 79 : Notice of inclusion or removal

Amendments 202 and 202A not moved. Amendments 202L and 203 Moved by Baroness Hanham 202L: Clause 79, page 66, line 25, at end insert— Clause 76 : Land of community value “but where it appears to the authority that it is not reasonably practicable to give a notice under this subsection to a Amendments 202B to 202F person to whom it is required to be given, the authority must instead take reasonable alternative steps for the Moved by Baroness Hanham purpose of bringing the notice to the person’s attention.” 202B: Clause 76, page 64, line 23, leave out from “Chapter” to 203: Clause 79, page 66, line 33, leave out subsection (5) end of line 26 and insert “but subject to regulations under subsection (2), a building or other land in a local authority’s area Amendments 202L and 203 agreed. is land of community value if in the opinion of the authority— (a) an actual current use of the building or other land that is not an ancillary use furthers the social wellbeing or Clause 80 : Review of decision to include land in list social interests of the local community, and (b) it is realistic to think that there can continue to be Amendment 203ZA not moved. non-ancillary use of the building or other land which will further (whether or not in the same way) the social Clause 81 : List of land nominated by unsuccessful wellbeing or social interests of the local community. community nominations (1A) For the purposes of this Chapter but subject to regulations under subsection (2), a building or other land in a local authority’s area that is not land of community value as a result of subsection (1) Amendments 203A and 203B is land of community value if in the opinion of the local authority— Moved by Baroness Hanham (a) there is a time in the recent past when an actual use of 203A: Clause 81, page 67, line 41, after “land” insert “— the building or other land that was not an ancillary use furthered the social wellbeing or interests of the local (a) may (but need not) be removed from the list by the community, and authority after it has been in the list for 5 years, and (b) it is realistic to think that there is a time in the next five (b) while it is in the list,” years when there could be non-ancillary use of the 203B: Clause 81, page 68, line 1, leave out subsection (4) building or other land that would further (whether or not in the same way as before) the social wellbeing or Amendments 203A and 203B agreed. social interests of the local community. (2) The appropriate authority may by regulations—” 202C: Clause 76, page 64, line 27, leave out from “that” to “a” Clause 82 : Publication and inspection of lists in line 28 202D: Clause 76, page 64, line 31, leave out from “that” to first Amendment 203C “a” in line 32 Moved by Baroness Hanham 202E: Clause 76, page 64, line 36, leave out paragraph (c) 203C: Clause 82, page 68, line 24, leave out subsection (2) 202F: Clause 76, page 65, line 9, at end insert— ““social interests”includes (in particular) each of the following— Amendment 203C agreed. 1467 Localism Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Localism Bill 1468

Clause 83 : Moratorium (i) if the disposal is occasioned by a person ceasing to be, or becoming, a partner in a partnership, or (j) ” Amendments 203D to 203J 203E: Clause 83, page 69, line 21, leave out “prescribed period” and insert “six months” 203F: Clause 83, page 69, line 24, leave out “prescribed Moved by Baroness Hanham period” and insert “six weeks” 203D: Clause 83, page 69, line 15, after “land” insert “— 203G: Clause 83, page 69, line 28, leave out “prescribed period” and insert “eighteen months” (a) if the disposal is by way of gift (including a gift to trustees of any trusts by way of settlement upon the 203H: Clause 83, page 69, line 29, at end insert— trusts), “(6A) For the purposes of subsection (5)(d), a person (“M”) is a member of the family of another person if M is— (b) if the disposal is by personal representatives of a deceased person in satisfaction of an entitlement under (a) that other person’s spouse or civil partner, or the will, or on the intestacy, of the deceased person, (b) a lineal descendant of a grandparent of that other (c) if the disposal is by personal representatives of a person. deceased person in order to raise money to— (6B) For the purposes of subsection (6A)(b) a relationship by marriage or civil partnership is to be treated as a relationship by (i) pay debts of the deceased person, blood.” (ii) pay taxes, 203J: Clause 83, page 69, line 30, leave out subsection (7) (iii) pay costs of administering the deceased person’s estate, or Amendments 203D to 203J agreed. (iv) pay pecuniary legacies or satisfy some other entitlement under the will, or on the intestacy, of Consideration on Report adjourned. the deceased person, (d) if the person, or one of the persons, making the disposal House adjourned at 10.54 pm. is a member of the family of the person, or one of the persons, to whom the disposal is made, (e) if the disposal is a part-listed disposal of a description specified in regulations made by the appropriate national authority, and for this purpose “part-listed disposal” CORRECTION means a disposal of an estate in land— (i) part of which is land included in a local authority’s list of assets of community value, and In col. 1075 of the Official Report for Tuesday, (ii) part of which is land not included in any local 4 October, we mistakenly reported that Amendment 14 authority’s list of assets of community value, to the Armed Forces Bill was tabled and spoken to by Lord Palmer; it was tabled and spoken to by Lord (f) if the disposal is of an estate in land on which a business is carried on and is at the same time, and to the same Palmer of Childs Hill. person, as a disposal of that business as a going concern, In col. GC 370 of the Official Report for Thursday, (g) if the disposal is occasioned by a person ceasing to be, or 6 October, during the speech of Baroness Hollis of becoming, a trustee, Heigham on Amendment 12 to the Welfare Reform Bill, it was incorrectly reported that the average council (h) if the disposal is by trustees of any trusts— tax benefit was £60 a week. This was a mishear and it (i) in satisfaction of an entitlement under the trusts, or should have been £16 a week. We apologise to Baroness (ii) in exercise of a power conferred by the trusts to Hollis and others for the difficulties that this has re-settle trust property on other trusts, caused.

GC 403 Arrangement of Business[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 404

that this is work in progress. None the less, the Bill Grand Committee is before us and it is important to understand the Government’s intention. Monday, 10 October 2011. Currently, there is a long list of items of capital that are exempted from the calculation of entitlement to Arrangement of Business means-tested benefits. In many instances, the exemptions are time limited. These range from the value of one’s Announcement home and personal possessions to tax rebates and training programme payments. It is not clear whether 3.30 pm all these exemptions will continue under universal The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness credit, a point that I noticed at the weekend was McIntosh of Hudnall): Good afternoon, my Lords. I registered by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, although begin by reminding the Committee that if there is a I recognise that the draft regulations have started to Division in the Chamber while the Committee is in set these out. It is clear from the briefings we have session, the Committee will adjourn at the sound of received from the DWP team that there are gaps and the Division Bell and resume 10 minutes thereafter. further work to be done. For example, there is an May I also remind Members of the Committee of the acknowledgement that the treatment of capital where new procedure during Grand Committee on the Bill it is jointly held with another person who is not for Divisions in the Chamber? Members who have included in the claim still has to be addressed by the registered with the Clerk of the Parliaments may vote Government and a view taken. in their places in the Grand Committee provided they This is a particularly important issue, because as a are present in the Grand Committee when the question result of the proposed treatment of capital, some of is put in the Chamber after three minutes. Members those in work might consequently experience a reduction who have not registered or who are not here at the in their income. This is going to be of some significance three-minute mark will not be able to vote in their for those in work because tax credits do not set a places. I hope that is clear. capital cut-off, although there is provision for income It has been brought to my attention that some that is derived from that capital to be taken into Members of the Committee are occasionally having account. Capital above £6,000 will be taken into account some difficulty in hearing other Members when they in universal credit. Furthermore, with the integration speak, so may I recommend to speakers that they of the in-work and out-of-work benefit, the Government speak up? There is no need to push any buttons on the will be applying a tariff approach whereby capital is microphone stands; the microphones are automatically deemed to produce an income by applying certain rates. on and you need do nothing but speak into them. On that basis, will the Minister say whether the 3.31 pm current circumstances in which a person is treated as not having capital, including time-limited circumstances, will all continue under universal credit? I have a long Welfare Reform Bill list before me, having tried to do my homework, and I Committee (3rd Day) can see that there are several not covered in the illustrative Relevant document: 17th Report from the Delegated list, including: certain payments made to disabled Powers Committee. people; the refund of council tax liability; payment by social services; employment and training programme Clause 5: Financial Conditions payments; and tax rebates, for future interest in most kinds of property. There are clearly some gaps, which I have already identified. Will the Minister also say Amendment 22A when it is anticipated that the definitive regulations on Moved by Baroness Drake the treatment of capital in universal credit will be 22A: Clause 5, page 3, line 7, after “it” insert “excluding available? amounts arising from the sale of a primary residence and held in Amendments 22A and 22E address the desire to a deposit or other prescribed account for a period of no greater exclude amounts arising from the sale of primary than 12 months” residence from the claimant’s capital for the purposes Baroness Drake: My Lords, in moving Amendment 22A of entitlement to universal credit for a period of I will also speak to Amendments 22E and 52A. 12 months. Under current rules, money received from Amendment 52A is a probing amendment to establish selling a primary residence or from surrendering tenancy clarity on the treatment of capital—that is, the types of rights to a landlord is ignored as capital for a period of capital disregarded and for how long for the purposes up to 22 weeks from the date of the sale. I recognise of entitlement to universal credit. In Schedule 1 to the that the briefings we have received have advised us of Bill,line9onpage107referstouniversalcreditsupplementary the Government’s intention to continue this practice, regulations, which may, but, in the absence of absolute clarity on the definitive set of rules, it is necessary to table amendments. “specify circumstances in which a person is to be treated as having or not having capital or earned or unearned income”. Equally, however, I seek to extend those rules to allow However, the schedule does not refer to such regards the capital to be ignored for 12 months. for limited time periods. We have received an initial Under the current rules, capital held on the sale of illustrative set of regulations on the treatment of capital a primary residence is disregarded for a period of and it is clearly not a final version. I obviously recognise 26 weeks. Clearly, however, already under the existing GC 405 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 406

[BARONESS DRAKE] I support my noble friend on the one-year rule in rules there is discretion to extend that. I am saying that relation to disposals of properties because the current rather than have discretion between 26 weeks and market is extremely difficult, and even if individuals 12 months, a disregard for a period of 12 months have the cash to make the purchase, people get caught should be allowed because selling a house is not easy, up in chains and it is difficult for them to complete particularly in current circumstances. A geographic and sell on so that a satisfactory result can ensue. It is relocation may be involved, vendor behaviour may be therefore very reasonable to request simply extending difficult and surveyor problems may occur, and 26 weeks that period and that disposals from the sale of property strikes me as a very small period for someone to are excluded from the calculation. manage the difficulties of selling and purchasing a new house. Hence, this clause seeks to extend the ability to disregard the capital from the sale of primary Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I, too, residence to a period of 12 months. support these amendments. I understand that this is a rather difficult question, but one can hardly pick up a Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I speak in magazine directed at older people without encountering support of my noble friend’s amendment and to catch articles urging people to save so that when they are up on one or two points. We understand the need to older enough money will be available for them to be merge two different systems of dealing with capital: provided with social care. We do not yet know what the tax credit rules and the tariff rules in the benefit the Government intend to do with the report that we system at the moment. One question to the Minister have had on social care, but it could very well involve is: why did the Government opt to do it that way people having to have a lump sum available at a round rather than the reverse way round? It could lead particular time. Quite obviously, it is in everybody’s to complexities. Someone whose income swings around interests to ensure that people have cover for when that £16,000 cut-off point could be in benefit or in the they are ill and require social care, particularly as the universal credit one day and out the next. report includes a general recommendation that people My second question is: can the Minister say something are best off being looked after in their own home. You about the practicalities of how this is going to work? have to take account of these sorts of possibilities What is going to be the process for reporting capital, when assessing what is a reasonable amount of money and how often will that have to be updated? Will it be to be regarded as suitable to be retained by the individual on a six-monthly basis? Will there be a look back if concerned when assessing the requirement for benefit. the capital has changed during an assessment period, giving rise to adjustments to universal credits? I am 3.45 pm picking away at some of the complexities around this, because we often promulgate universal credit on the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, basis that it is a simplified system, and we accept that Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My in some respects it is. However, it still has attached to it Lords, this is one of three amendments about capital. these sorts of complexities from the changes in people’s I shall start by explaining our intentions for the capital lives. It would be good to know which of the existing rules and universal credit. I will then be able to be exemptions will be carried forward into the new system. briefer on that context and background when we come The £16,000 cut-off point will penalise savers, making to the next two groups. The rules for the current it harder for low-income working families to save. It income-rated benefits will be carried forward into will particularly penalise families with high tax credit universal credit. We intend to limit eligibility for universal awards such as high childcare costs or indeed disabled credit to claimants who have less than £16,000 of children. Therefore, we see this as a disincentive to capital. Claimants may save up to £6,000 before there save. I was going to ask whether this is wise when there is any impact whatever on their entitlement to universal are rumours about auto-enrolment being deferred, but credit. If they have between £6,000 and £16,000, we I am advised that that is not now in the Government’s would assume a tariff income from this capital. These mind. rules ensure that support is focused on those who I was a little surprised in the briefings that we had really need it rather than on people who have significant from the department by comments about it being right resources on which they can draw. This is an important that people should, over a period in some circumstances, principle, which is essential to ensure that the system disinvest their assets before wholly relying upon state remains affordable. As noble Lords have pointed out, support. However, the briefing note quotes in aid, there is a slightly opaque area here in the sense that capital can be deferred income and vice versa. It is “earlier means-tested benefits including National Assistance required applicants to exhaust all or most of their savings (and to sell important to have some rules around the appropriate personal possessions regarded as unnecessary)”. capital. That has a resonance for many people, particularly on In order to be fair to the taxpayer, we have assessed the left, and it is why, for a period, reference to how much families typically save. While nearly one in means-tested benefits was a derogatory and hated three pensioner households have savings in excess of term because it took you back to circumstances in £16,000, only 13 per cent of households with a working which people knocked on the door, entered the front age adult in them have this much savings. A typical room and told you to sell every stick of furniture you working age household has only £300 in savings. On had before you could rely on benefits. Reverting to the point about importing the tax credit system to references to national assistance and those practices is universal credit, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked probably not going to be the most helpful way for the why it is this way around. The answer is simply that it Government to sell this policy. would be unaffordable. GC 407 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 408

The first group of amendments seek to amend the Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I wonder financial conditions for universal credit by requiring whether the noble Lord can help me with some stats. It capital derived from the sale of the claimant’s primary was interesting that in his reply he told us that the home to be excluded from the calculation of capital current percentage of people who have savings above for up to 12 months when held in a deposit or a £16,000 is 13 per cent. However, when you start netting prescribed account. However, it is already our intention the figure and taking into account the notional income to provide claimants who have capital from the recent derived from that tariff, and given that something like sale of their main home with a significant level of 85 per cent of people on JSA expect to get back to protection. This is clear from the illustrative draft work within nine months to a year, what does he think regulations on capital and income recently shared the real savings, or loss of savings, would be were he in with Peers. The illustrative schedule on capital to be a broader sense to accept that, with the integration of disregarded sets out our intentions on this point. the two benefits, one should go for the tax credit Capital from the sale of the claimant’s main home system rather than the JSA system? Can he help us on received within the previous 26 weeks will be disregarded, that? In the light of that, we can perhaps press him which is to be used for the purchase of their new further, but what real savings is he expecting to generate, home. That period may be extended where the decision- given that most people who come on to JSA will be maker determines that it will be reasonable to do so in back in work within the year? In their first six months the circumstances of the case. An example would be their benefit is contributory, so they are not affected where accommodation suitable for a disabled member and they will go back to work very quickly within the of the family has not yet been found. We believe that next six months. Therefore, if they have those savings this approach balances our duty to be fair to the and you say that because they are over £16,000 they claimant with the need to safeguard universal credit. get not a penny of JSA, in real terms what net savings Turning to the power in Schedule 1 to treat a do you expect to garner? I would like to press the claimant as having or not having capital, this is simply Minister on a further point, if I may. taken in order to replicate the notional capital rules Lord Freud: My Lords, I have to confess to the that existed in the current benefits system and that noble Baroness that I do not have my hands on that guard against claimants deliberately depriving themselves particular figure. I am not sure that I can find it out. of capital. The exemptions for types of capital covered We have other figures around the costs, but I am not by the rules in the existing benefits system will be convinced that I have that particular figure readily to maintained. Some types of payments cited by the hand. Can I leave it that I will try to find it out and noble Baroness, Lady Drake, are classed as income. It supply it in the fullness of time? is not necessary to add a specific power taken by Amendment 52A. As I have said, the illustrative draft Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I do not regulations demonstrate that we already have the power want “the fullness of time”; I want very soon, just as to limit the time period for which claimants are treated with childcare—the day after, if the Minister would be as having or not having capital where we choose to do so kind. This is the key figure. The key stat is the real so. I hope that this account has clarified the Government’s net cost of going for the more generous alignment proposals for protecting the capital of claimants who with tax credits rather than bringing people down to have recently sold their main home and therefore the harsher alignment with JSA. That is the pivotal explains why we could not support Amendments 22A, figure. I am surprised that this has not been brought 22E and 52A. into play in the Minister’s response. People coming out of work on to JSA are desperate to get back into Lord McKenzie of Luton: Perhaps the noble Lord work. Anything we do to make it difficult for them to can help me a little on some of the practicalities of get back into work is counterproductive. Anything that. We are saying that the existing exemption operates that runs down their savings and that they are worried when someone has disposed of their main residence about, or anything that risks them when they go from and reapplies it within a 26-week period. Is it a requirement work to benefit as opposed to from benefit to work is that it is wholly reapplied for the purchase of a property? surely to be deplored. I suggest to the Minister that My noble friend Lady Turner made a point about this is very unwise social policy. someone who wanted to save some of that because they were downsizing for carers. Is this looked at Lord Freud: My Lords, I withdraw my previous retrospectively? Will someone look after the event and reluctance to provide a figure. In much less time than I see as a matter of fact that it was so applied and, if it thought, I am now in a position to let noble Lords was not, what the ramifications are for the application know that if we removed the cap limit entirely, the cost of the universal credit? would be £500 million per annum. Lord Freud: Yes, my Lords. The way it works is that Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Forgive me, but that is the amount of money that is being reserved for the the net cost. If you removed the cap entirely and purchase of a new house is the amount of capital that instead took into account notional income from those would be exempted. Other capital would not be exempted. savings, given the stat of 13 per cent being over £16,000, We are currently working on the exact workings of the as the noble Lord said, as well as people being in a system and getting these regulations—the next iteration— range of between £6,000 and £16,000, and taking into right. Therefore, I am not currently in a position to lay account that they will have their benefit cut by virtue down clearly, as the noble Lord rightly says, the practical of their notional income, I take it that the £500 million applications and fine tuning of how we apply this. includes that figure. It seems unlikely on the face of it, That will come at the appropriate time. but it may well be the case. I suspect that it is a gross GC 409 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 410

[BARONESS HOLLIS OF HEIGHAM] Lord Freud: My Lords, I will have to write to the figure, not a net figure. I could be wrong, but we need noble Earl, Lord Listowel, with precise information to know the cost in effect of substituting one system on that. over the other, not simply the cost of not having any savings rules at all. Baroness Drake: My Lords, on the point about people who sell their houses and have capital from Lord Freud: My Lords, I can clarify. That is a gross that, current rules allow the discretion to extend to figure. Behavioural changes, clearly— 12 months. The provision is already there, so I do not see why one could not have efficiencies in the system Baroness Hollis of Heigham: No, they are not since the cost of applying discretion is reduced to the behavioural. difference between six and 12 months and people are given greater clarity in what is a complicated market for buying and selling houses. Also, the rules are being The Deputy Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I applied to a population that would not previously hesitate to interrupt but noble Lords will see that there have been subjected to them. Millions of people will is a Division in the Chamber, so the Committee will be impacted over time, and this is not a difficult adjourn now and resume in 10 minutes. alteration to make in the rules. 3.53 pm On the definitive set of rules setting out what capital or earned and unearned income is or is not Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. going to be taken into account, the exchange with my noble friends has indicated why people are concerned 4.05 pm to see and understand the list as soon as possible—again, particularly the application of those rules to the in-work Lord Freud: My Lords, I will complete my response population. For the moment, however, I beg leave to to the questions. If we were to take a £50,000 limit withdraw the amendment. with the tariff rules—in other words, starting at £6,000 and moving up on the tariff rules from £1 for every Amendment 22A withdrawn. £250—the cost would be £90 million; so if we were to take the cap off completely, it would be a little, but probably not a lot, more. The £16,000 cap that we Amendment 22B propose will affect 200,000 people in total. However, Moved by Baroness Drake currently only 100,000 are on tax credits. That is the universe that we are talking about. I point out the 22B: Clause 5, page 3, line 7, after “it” insert “excluding political choices that we are making. We are designing amounts in an Individual Savings Account or other prescribed saving account up to a prescribed maximum of no less than universal credit to be for the poorest people and £50,000, where the claimant is in work or was in work in the last putting constraints higher up the income scale. That is 12 months” entirely deliberate. Baroness Drake: My Lords, in moving Amendment 22B, Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am grateful to the I shall also speak to Amendment 22F, which seeks to Minister for giving us the figures. Perhaps he could exclude amounts in individual savings accounts or make it clear that embedded in them is the scatter of other prescribed savings accounts as identified by the JSA claimants who will return to work at different Secretary of State up to a value of £50,000 from the intervals. The first six months will be contributory. capital of claimants for the purposes of entitlement to Thereafter, most of those coming on to JSA for the universal credit for those in work or those who have first time in that year will be back to work within three been in work within the past 12 months. The issue of months or so on average after their contributory benefit the application of the capital rules to those either in has ended. Has the distributional factor of how long work or trying to get back into work causes me great people stay on JSA been taken into account? I am concern. A Government in today’s world have to have talking not about existing JSA claimants but new a set of compatible policies that seek simultaneously to claimants. What will the implications be? achieve a series of outcomes: a welfare system that is fair and incentivises work, a desirable level and distribution Lord Freud: Yes, my Lords, a careful assessment has of savings that sustains personal responsibility, and been done of how it will work in practice, which effective support for ordinary hard-working people in incorporates those kinds of effects. order to manage their experience of today’s flexible labour market. I fear that the manner in which the tax The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I hope that the credit system is to be integrated into universal credit Minister will forgive me if I ask his help on a point of will create inconsistencies in the delivery of those detail. It may come up during fine-tuning, but it might desirable outcomes. The application of the tariffed be helpful to flag it up now. I refer to young people income and capital limit rules under universal credit who leave the local authority care system and win an that do not currently apply under tax credit to those in award against their authority because in their time in work is an important instance that will give rise to care they were not properly cared for. Therefore, they inconsistencies. have a capital sum that they might need to use for Universal credit is changing the capital rules for education, therapy or something else. What circumstance those in work. There are no capital cut-offs in tax will they find themselves in under these arrangements? credit, although taxable income from savings and other GC 411 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 412 assets is taken into account, subject to a disregard of If I could press the point, surely it is desirable to £300 a year. Under universal credit, as the Minister reduce the risk that people face when they move from has said, there will be a £16,000 capital cut-off with a work to benefits. The capital changes for people in harsher regime of an assumed tariffed income on work now actually increase that risk, and there is no savings above £6,000. I acknowledge that under the incentive to save in order to manage yourself through current rules, capital limits of £6,000 to £16,000 apply that risk. That is the danger that the Centre for Social to jobseeker’s allowance, and a tariffed income is Justice so powerfully spelled out in its report, Dynamic assumed for capital within those limits, but the Benefits, on page 121, and in its executive summary on Government have chosen to opt for a harsher anti-savings page 8, and in evidence to the Commons committee regime and to apply it to everyone, including those in on 22 March this year. It was an interesting exchange. work. It really is quite a harsh anti-savings regime. The Stephen Timms commented to the gentleman from simple mantra of, “If you are in work and you have the Centre for Social Justice who was giving evidence savings, you should not look to the taxpayer for support”, that in its report, which is the explanation given in the departmental “the Centre for Social Justice was critical of the effect of the briefing notes, ignores the complexities of what is savings cap in means-tested benefits currently. The Government being managed here. decided to reject your advice on this and to extend the cap into It is important to have a benefits system that works in-work benefits”. for the poor, but the tax credit system was also set up Mr Ghelani, on behalf of the Centre for Social to enable people in work to better themselves and to Justice, replied: improve their position. If work, responsibility, control “It is fundamentally a disincentive to save. I think that the and aspiration are to be encouraged, those in work savings limit for people who are not working and are on benefits should find it possible to save and to build up a has been £16,000 for I am not sure how many years, but certainly rather a lot. The limit has not been uprated for at least a decade I reasonable level of financial assets. They should not would say, and possibly a lot longer. By extending that to people be in the position where, if they have been responsible, who are working, people who get close to that threshold might that support is suddenly taken away from them. This suddenly realise that it does not pay to save and that there are penalises those who save and undermines responsible perhaps other things that they should be doing with the money, behaviour. Families on modest incomes with modest whereas saving is in itself a protection against dependency”.—[Official savings will be hit by the proposed new rules, but not Report, Commons, Welfare Reform Bill Committee, 22/3/11; col.18.] only families with higher levels of savings will be hit; The Centre for Social Justice makes the point with a those with savings above £6,000 will be impacted by fluency that I would struggle to replicate. tariff rules that assume 21 per cent rates of return— In other arenas, discussions are taking place about 21 per cent times the typical rate of return in an incentives to raising saving levels by ordinary people: ordinary savings account. ISAs as feeders to pension saving; and other measures designed to promote asset accumulation and responsible 4.15 pm behaviour, particularly for those on low to moderate As the Minister said, in the briefing it is estimated incomes. However, the application of these proposed that, in steady state, there will be 200,000 to 300,000 capital limits to in-work benefits will just close down households with savings of between £6,000 and £16,000, those discussions because they will simply undermine and in 2014 a tax credit population of 100,000 households any future initiatives. It is therefore a kiss of death to with capital over £16,000. However, the people in asset accumulation strategies for low to moderate-income those populations will change from time to time, so earners at certain income levels. the total community that will experience the impact of This amendment seeks to have ISA savings up to a these capital rules will be significant over time. I can maximum of £50,000 disregarded for the purposes of see from the briefing that some transitional protection the universal credit for those in work and those in is intended for those on tax credits, but it is clear that a work in the past 12 months. ISA is a tax-incentivised moderate change in working circumstances could trigger product the cash element of which was targeted the sudden loss of the disregard of their savings, with particularly at ordinary people. The £50,000 allows for a consequent loss of income, so sending out a very those, including joint claimants, who have been responsible clear and quite shocking message that it does not pay over a very long time and who may be older than some or has not paid to save. other younger claimants, because persistency of saving The Minister, through the design of the universal over a lifetime is an important part of taking responsibility. credit system, wants to de-risk the move from benefit However, once that ISA saving is drawn down, that into work, and I give him full recognition for that, but tax-advantaged element is lost for ever, because under should he not also de-risk the inevitable move from the ISA rules there is no way of restoring that saving work into benefit, allowing responsible hard-working that had to be drawn down and of reclaiming the people to spring back, stay resilient and deal more accrued tax advantage. It is gone, and you are easily with difficult labour markets? In today’s labour disadvantaged in that sense. market, what constitutes an insecure job has a much It strikes me as rather unfortunate that well-off broader definition than has historically been the case. people and non-working members of their families Do we not want people operating in a flexible labour and spouses can continue to enjoy the accruing benefits market to save to smooth their circumstances, especially of various forms of tax-incentivised savings, often at if they have children or commitments that they cannot 40 or 50 per cent tax relief, whereas hard-working, duck? However, under the capital rules of universal moderate or low-income families who behave responsibly credit, why should they bother? They will be penalised can find their incomes reduced. This is unfair. We have if they do. had quotes of the order of £70 million to £90 million, GC 413 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 414

[BARONESS DRAKE] on savings of disabled people who are reliant on social because the noble Lord anticipated this amendment. I care. Over the past 10 years, one who is in receipt of have to say in response that if there is a requirement to social care support has significantly not been able to deliver £70 million to £90 million, the incentivised retain savings above and beyond £14,000. The consequence savings for the better off and the levels and the tax is that these people have not been able to develop their relief on those incentivised savings are a better area in careers, buy a house, buy a car, save for a family and which to seek to find that money than that of hard- feel an equal member of society to a non-disabled working people who will suddenly find themselves up member. I think we sometimes forget how the inability against a set of rules that take away their money and to save beyond £14,000 can erode one’s sense of self inhibit their ability to get back into work fairly quickly and of equality. I therefore support this amendment; I when they are trying to juggle being out of work. think it is admirable, and I will continue to raise the Universal credit has to embrace both those who are issue in the area of social care. Andrew Dilnot raised in sustained and long-term unemployment and those this in his recent commission report as being one of hard-working people who are managing periods of the greatest barriers to the life chances of people who difficulty or unemployment that has been imposed on rely on benefits, especially social care benefits and them. An efficient welfare system does not suddenly support, so I am very pleased that this has been raised remove support from such responsible people and by the noble Baroness, Lady Drake, and I support it. families who are managing themselves through problems such as redundancy into another job. Again, I am Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I, too, supported by the Centre for Social Justice in the view support my noble friend’s amendment, which was so that it is not desirable to be so harsh on people who impressively and eloquently moved. I thought she had have savings when those people are out of work or an unarguable case, but we will see in a moment trying to manage not becoming dependent. whether the Minister thinks differently. The Minister To address this problem, this amendment would has been very responsive, rightly in my view, not only allow ISA savings or such other prescribed savings to the issue of rewarding the move into work but to products to be disregarded for a period of up to the issue of reducing the risk of moving into work. 12 months after losing a job. The fairness to the One thing I must welcome about universal credit is taxpayer argument has to be weighed against the precisely that it takes into account the risk for people danger of a design of the universal system that appears on very low and narrow incomes. I do not doubt we punitive for responsible working people who were shall come back to the very high risks that people on saving and will actually increase dependency and very low incomes face when trying to manage on a undermine the incentive to save. I beg to move. frankly very tiny budget when we discuss an amendment on payment methods tabled by my noble friend Lady Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I have little to Lister. add to what my noble friend said about her amendment, There is another risk. You are in work, you may be which she moved comprehensively and quite brilliantly. receiving tax credits or may be self-employed, and you Will the Minister confirm that ISA income is disregarded try to build up savings, through ISAs or whatever, under existing arrangements for tax credits whereby because you need to replace a white van for your the income, not the tariff, is looked at? If that is right, business to move things or because you are a self-employed what is the read across to the new regime? Does that carpenter with tools because you can no longer get a not reinforce my noble friend’s amendment? job as an employee, or because you are associated with a garden centre and are taking stuff around; or you The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I was most grateful might need a car, particularly one that is big enough to to the Minister for his previous reply and for the offer take your elderly parents out from their residential of detailed information on the question I asked him. care, and that will cost you substantial savings; or, as Now I would like to ask him about child trust funds, my noble friend mentioned, you might be an older and I hope I have the right hook on which to put this person in your 40s or 50s, with children approaching question. There has been some toing and froing about university age, who has been saving hard to make it child trust funds, but thanks to the work of Paul possible for them to go to university without facing a Goggins MP and support cross-party, they have been massive fear of subsequent debt. reinstated for children in local authority care. The All these are expenditures which I am sure the local authority will put in a sum, supported by the Minister would regard as reasonable, and all require Government, for each year that a child is in care, I saving—in some cases, if possible, beyond the £16,000 think. I am interested to know how that will be treated figure. You may have several demands. A rollercoaster in this context. The Government have also moved of demands might hit you, and you have over the years away from providing money to parents for trust funds, providently built up your savings to £20,000, £25,000, but they are looking to find vehicles to encourage or whatever, so that you can lay off that risk. I know parents to put money for their children into these the Minister understands the point about risk if one is child trust funds. Again, I am interested to know how going from benefit to work. that particular vehicle will be treated in this context. I hope that is clear. 4.30 pm There are also real risks facing people who are in Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: My Lords, I would work, who currently enjoy tax credits and who may like briefly to support this amendment by reminding now find under the regime described by my noble Members of what happened when there was an assault friend that their savings are now expected to replace GC 415 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 416 their JSA income. As a result, they will have none of work, or who has been in work in the past 12 months, that resource that allows them to smooth the perfectly up to a maximum limit to be set no lower than legitimate, proper and desirable expenditure they face. £50,000. It begs a really very simple question: should If they go back into work subsequently or perhaps are the taxpayer support someone who has savings of lifted off tax credits, they will think to themselves, £50,000? That is the question that is being asked here, “What is the point of my trying to build up ISAs in and I think it is a question about amounts. The figures future? What is the point of my having some rainy day we are using were taken over from the existing benefits money? What is the point of my doing what another system, and they were raised a little over five years ago bit of government tells me to do, which is to save? As in April 2006. Those figures were doubled from £8,000 soon as I do, I am penalised and I am not able to meet at the top to £16,000, and the starting rate from £3,000 my other responsibilities towards my family members to £6,000, so those figures do move around. I accept or my efforts to keep myself afloat as a self-employed that determining what the right figure is here is not an person because you have run down my savings. You exact science. Indeed, one of the things I am keen to have reduced my resilience to cope. Youhave increased have is a responsive system that starts to get research my risk; you have increased my difficulty in getting and understand judgments such as what the right back to work, because I now have a clapped-out van I figure is here. cannot rely on”. I know the Minister does not want I understand exactly the motivation of the two that scenario; and if he does not want it, I very much amendments, which is to encourage low-income workers hope he will agree to take back the amendments to save. The argument comes down to how much we moved by my noble friend on various aspects of savings and the taxpayer can afford. I gave some figures when and think through them again. we debated the previous group of amendments. I will remind noble Lords that if we had an upper capital The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I am afraid my last limit of £50,000, it would cost £90 million a year, comments were probably not very clear, for which I which we simply do not have. Under our proposals, apologise. The question I really wanted to ask was only when a claimant, or joint claimants, has £16,000 about a young person leaving care who has a sum of or more will the entitlement to universal credit cease; capital in a child trust fund. Will that sum be exempt if and only 13 per cent of households have this much in he needs to draw on universal credit? savings. That is why the figure is not as arbitrary as some noble Lords indicated. Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, having listened I was asked a series of questions. I will have to add to the detailed arguments, which were extremely well to my letter to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, to get put, if I may say so, the message to me is definitely that right the position of children leaving care. Clearly, a all this looks as though it is going to discourage people child’s income and capital are wholly disregarded in from saving. If the Minister cannot reply to what we the system. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked have heard, that is a very worrying message to be about the treatment of ISA interest. Universal credit sending out. will replicate the capital rules for means-tested benefits by using a tariff income. It is not possible to read Baroness Sherlock: My Lords, I would like to add across from the tax credit system. As noble Lords one final word. Could the Minister reflect for us know, tariff income is not—and is not meant to be—the briefly on one of the wider consequences of this equivalent of the actual income that you might earn move? When tax credits were set up, they were, as he on that amount of capital. The figure includes an will know, designed to replicate work in many ways estimate of how much you should be prepared to run and to replicate the tax system, so it is not the case that down your capital while you look for support from the having savings is not taken into account at all. Under state. tax credits, genuine income from savings is taken into account, and that is the way it should be, but under this new system it is not just the very richest who are Lord McKenzie of Luton: Will the Minister confirm affected. Once people reach £6,000 worth of savings, that tax credits and ISA income are not included but they will face, as my noble friend Lady Drake described, are exempt? Is that right or not? a heavily punitive rate of effective taxation on that. I wonder what the effect of that is on the marginal Lord Freud: I will have to write to the noble Lord deduction rates as they move into work. on ISA income in tax credits. I do not know the exact I ask the noble Lord to do two things. One is to position. I hope that that explains why we cannot comment on how he has factored that into the effective support Amendments 22B and 22F. I ask the noble incentives to move into work in a whole variety of Lord to withdraw his amendment. situations. Secondly, could he say whether he is not worried at all that it might push people back into an Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, the noble approach of dependency on the state as opposed to Lord started off with a question that I suspect was their trying to share that responsibility between themselves meant to be rhetorical, but I think he is entitled to an and the state, which the tax credits system encourages answer. Is it right for the taxpayer to support someone them to do? who has £50,000 in savings? That was the noble Lord’s opening sentence. I agree with him that that is the key Lord Freud: My Lords, Amendments 22B and 22F question. However, given the responses that he has would exclude from the calculation of capital any heard today, the answer should be, “Yes, in certain savings placed into an individual savings account or circumstances”. The key question is, “What are the other prescribed accounts of a claimant who is in circumstances?”. There is no absolute yes or no answer. GC 417 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 418

[BARONESS HOLLIS OF HEIGHAM] Lady Sherlock has said, there is not just the issue of The circumstances mentioned so far include whether the £16,000. For all those low and moderate-income this will help sustain savings and the savings habit. people who have more than £6,000— The answer is yes. Would it help people get back to work earlier than they otherwise would, and therefore The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I am sorry to depend less on benefits? Possibly, yes. Would it help interrupt the noble Baroness again, but a Division has families avoid falling into debt and thus lose even the been called in the Chamber. The Committee will now tariff income that they would otherwise expect to adjourn, and resume in 10 minutes. enjoy between £6,000 and £16,000? Possibly. Should it be for a limited time so that it is not an unending 4.42 pm commitment? Certainly. That is surely the way in which we should approach the question. It should not Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. be, “£50K or not?”, but, “What are the circumstances in which it is reasonable to support people?”. Otherwise, 4.52 pm we will make short-term savings at the expense of Baroness Drake: I will just complete what I was longer-term losses, which will come from keeping people saying. I think I made the point about those who are on benefits longer than they need to be because they better off and are saving, and the impact on hard-working have gone into debt by having run down their savings. families who are now disincentivised to save and who Surely that is the right question to ask rather than the will be more exposed to risk in managing difficult bald one that does not take into account the very circumstances because they will have had to have different situation of people who are marginal, who drawn down on their savings, so will be less well are in and out of the labour market but who hope to positioned if they face difficulty. stay there with the help of savings to smooth out these The tariff rules are going to hit, very aggressively, movements. those who have savings of between £6,000 and £16,000. A 21 per cent assumed rate of return is just extraordinary Baroness Drake: The Minister opened by asking for people who are trying to save at the most modest whether the taxpayer should support someone with level in that situation. Thanks to the forensic help of £50,000 in savings. My initial reaction to that is that my noble friends Lady Hollis and Lady Sherlock, the taxpayer supports people on £500,000 because under the current rules interest from any individual there is 40 per cent to 50 per cent tax relief up to the savings account is currently disregarded. Under the value of £1.8 million and £50,000 per annum for new rules, people on in-work benefits will find that to pension savings. Actually, the taxpayer supports people no longer be the case. We had a lot of discussion in the on much higher levels of income, and we can think of debate about the impact on risk, responsibility and lots of other incentivised examples. There is no limit dependency from such a disincentive to save. on the ability to use the advantageous tax opportunities I appreciate that the Minister is arguing the of ISAs year on year depending on what capital is held Government’s position, but there was no great defence in other places. I am not sure that that would withstand of the principle that people on benefits should not be the test of rigorous intellectual analysis. able to save without it being drawn back under the capital rules; it was much more an argument about the Lord Freud: I am sorry, but I cannot not respond to level of savings that would be made by this change to that because there is a difference. I think everyone in ISA savings. If I may say so without introducing new the Room will appreciate the difference between not business, a similar argument was used by Mr Grayling taking someone’s own money away from them and in Committee in the other place. Therefore, if the giving them money from the taxpayer, which is the primary driver is one of reducing expenditure rather comparison that the noble Baroness has just made. than the defence of the principle, because I do not think the principle stands up—that people on benefits Baroness Drake: I do not accept that defence because should not be able to save above a certain level—I tax relief on pension savings is not taking money away argue that the taxpayer should look to other richer from people; it is giving them their tax back. incentivised savers to find their £70 million or £90 million. The other point is that even on ISAs, those who are I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. well off can take every member of their family, their Amendment 22B withdrawn. spouse and children, and give them ISAs, thus taking taxpayers’ money for the incentivised advantage that that brings. So the taxpayer supports all sorts of Amendment 22C people, some of whom are more worthy than others. Moved by Baroness Drake On that basis, if the exam question is whether the taxpayer should support someone who has £50,000, I 22C: Clause 5, page 3, line 7, after “it” insert “excluding such prescribed amounts saved for a deposit on the purchase of should like to get the whole list of incentivised savings accommodation for personal use, where the claimant is in work or and do some comparative analysis. was in work within the last 12 months” The effect of this policy is that people in hard-working families will be disincentivised to save and will face Baroness Drake: My Lords, in moving Amendment greater risk in managing a labour market that the 22C, I also wish to speak to Amendment 22D, which Government themselves want to deregulate further seeks to exclude amounts saved for a deposit on the but do not want to support people in managing that purchase of accommodation from a single claimant’s deregulated labour market. As my noble friend or joint claimants’ entitlement to universal credit. GC 419 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 420

These amendments are tabled as a consequence of some contribution towards a deposit, it is next to aggressive capital rules being applied to in-work benefit, impossible to buy a first home. The question that goes which is now the characteristic of universal credit. I through my mind is: if a parent has money allocated have rehearsed in previous amendments the impact of for this purpose, is he or she going to pass it to their integrating tax credits into universal credit and applying offspring to buy a house, knowing that if it stands in the proposed capital rules. We now have a situation in their offspring’s name in a bank it may prevent that which an individual or a couple who are acting responsibly person from getting benefits? and trying to accumulate money for a deposit with In areas such as those to which I have referred, the which to purchase accommodation will find that that major industry is often tourism, which is highly seasonal. act of saving will be taken into account when calculating This means that people are moving in and out of work their entitlement to universal credit, so being responsible frequently. If one takes the combination of ultra-high and prudent and saving for a deposit could now lead property values, which have often arisen because of to a loss of income for some, which strikes me again as the pressure of second homes, the relatively low income somewhat perverse. These ordinary hard-working people levels that obtain within the economy, and the seasonal will face a combination of forces coming into play. nature of the employment available, particularly for Deposits for the purchase of accommodation will now young people looking for their first job—and one need to be much higher to qualify for a mortgage. wants to encourage them to take every job opportunity They will have to save in an environment in which there is—one surely has to make sure that the rules private rents are rising due to increased demand and and regulations do not militate against them getting limited housing stock, and if they do try to save for a their foot on the first rung of the ladder in order to be deposit this could result in a reduction in their income the owner of their home. I put it to the Minister that from universal credit. If ever I had an intergenerational somehow or other that has to be safeguarded within empathy compared with my generation’s experience, it the system. is in this area. We are putting barriers in front of hard-working Baroness Sherlock: I would like to make one brief lower and moderate-income families because of the point about the sums of money that are increasingly approach to their accumulation of savings that the needed to save for a house. It was reported in the well-off simply will not face. If I may anticipate the noble Guardian on 17 September this year that the average Lord’s remarks, I have no doubt that he will respond deposit has gone up tenfold in the last 20 years, from that there are no ring-fenced deposit savings accounts £6,793 in 1990 to over £65,000 now. The same article for house purchase and there is no way of confirming went on to quote a banker from First Direct, which I the future intentions of claimants, to which I would presume must know these things, who said: respond that I do not believe it is beyond the imagination “The average deposit … has actually risen more than twice as of government to facilitate such products or to create fast as house prices and almost four times as fast as income”. a process to identify such savings. Controls could be Could the Minister therefore think for a moment applied to ensure that any withdrawals from those about whether the inflation in the savings limit properly deposit savings other than for accommodation purchase takes account of the specific house-related inflation, could trigger their treatment as capital that is not and within that the specific deposit-related inflation, disregarded. I am sure the noble Lord will argue that that we are seeing? the income of those in receipt of universal credit is unlikely to support a mortgage application in today’s world, but that rather dismisses the motivation of Lord Freud: My Lords, Amendments 22C and 22D some hard-working people to save and own their own would exclude from the calculation of capital prescribed place. It sets a low aspiration for all those in receipt of amounts saved for a deposit on the purchase of universal credit, which is not justified. It ignores the accommodation for personal use where the claimant is possibility of change in peaceful circumstances. They in work or has been in work in the previous 12 months. may go on to lower earnings for a period in response I can of course see the benefits of encouraging low-earning to the labour market, but their earnings may improve families to become homeowners, but at present these over time. Nevertheless, they will have had to draw amendments would be difficult if not impossible to down on their deposit savings because of the capital implement efficiently in practice. As the noble Baroness, rules. The purpose of the amendment is to say that a Lady Drake, pre-empted my argumentation, I will not way should be found such that savings ring-fenced for go into this in depth, but I must say that one would the purchase of accommodation should not count as need both the provision of a savings vehicle, which capital under the rules of entitlement to universal would in effect be exclusively for the purchase of a credit. house, as well as adequate numbers of people wanting to save in this particular way, for that market to work. I do not think there is any necessary block on creating 5pm a vehicle like that at some stage in the future, and it Lord Wigley: My Lords, I support this amendment would be up to a Government to look at that in the very warmly indeed, and put to the Minister circumstances future. Right now, given our constraints, I do not that arose frequently in the area that I used to represent think we are in a position to do it. As noble Lords have in the other place and that still arise in rural areas, not heard and as the noble Baroness suggested, these are only in Wales but also in areas such as the Lake not necessarily issues of principle; they are issues of District and Cornwall, where it is very difficult for affordability and the envelope that we have to introduce young people to buy a first home. Indeed, it is so universal credit. I remind noble Lords that we have difficult that unless a parent is in a position to make obtained an envelope of £4 billion per annum to give GC 421 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 422

[LORD FREUD] which I have tried to spell out one by one. This, to me, to people in receipt of universal credit. I am not becomes an even more compelling argument for saying, netting it off against other changes, but that is what “Are you going to put this on their shoulders as well?”. the universal credit does. Finding extra money for this, I accept that there may be process or product that and the other cannot be done just by a wave of design challenges around this, but I have every faith in the hand. It will be tough to get extra money for the creative ability of the Minister and the DWP team desirable things. to find a process route through this and still urge them It is essential that we get the architecture of a to allow all these people who are saving for their structure that we can use to help and motivate people. houses not to suddenly find that they have to draw If we cannot afford particular things or it would be down on their savings or lose benefit. I withdraw my desirable to develop particular processes, that is fine amendment. and we can do it, but right now we do not have those resources. For that core reason, I hope noble Lords Amendment 22C withdrawn. will appreciate why we do not support these amendments, and I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment. Amendments 22D to 22F not moved.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: The noble Lord may need Clause 5 agreed. to write to us to flesh out some detail about the £4 billion, a figure that he has used on several occasions. I accept that it is probably a gross figure and that there Clause6:Restrictions on entitlement are some nettings off. Presumably the baseline for that is after taking account of the previous two Budgets Amendment 23 and the spending review, and all the hits that occurred there. Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton 23: Clause 6, page 3, line 20, leave out paragraph (a) Lord Freud: My Lords, I need not write to the noble Lord on this matter because I am trustful that the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this is a impact assessment that holds these figures will be on straightforward and, I hope, brief probing amendment its way— to Clause 6. This clause is concerned with restrictions on entitlement. There are three types of restrictions, Baroness Hollis of Heigham: Very soon? two of which are time-related. Clause 6(1)(c) deals with periods at the beginning Lord Freud: I was going to say today. In fact, I can of a period of claim, which presumably are supposed say more. I have copies in the Room. I can do better; I to reflect the waiting days applicable to some benefits. can ceremoniously deliver the impact assessment to Of course, waiting days do not apply to housing the noble Lord with that figure explained. benefit or generally to tax credits. Question one for the Minister is therefore how the waiting-day rules are to be applied under universal credit. Application to the Baroness Drake: In response to the Minister, I am universal credit would, as my noble friend Lady Hollis able to pre-empt his arguments because the quality of said, be adopting the lowest common denominator. the DWP briefings is so good that I can see where he is You need, for example, to take account of the fact that likely to be coming from. The fact that I can anticipate rent has to be paid from day one if there are going to is an indirect compliment. On the substance of his be waiting days before the claim becomes payable. comments, he argues that it is important to get the architecture in. The problem is that the architecture My second question is whether the same sort of has opted for a very harsh and anti-savings regime, exemptions from waiting days that operate currently—for and for applying it to those in work. I am not sure that example, in JSA, within 12 weeks of the cessation of I would want that element of the architecture to be in, another benefit claim—will apply to universal credit. but at least some of my amendments seek to say not, Question three is what linking rules will apply so that “Oh, let’s find bits of money”, but that if one chooses the waiting days do not apply where universal credit is to take that harsh anti-savings regime—quite clearly, in operation previously. Perhaps we can understand as I have quoted, I am supported in that view by the the likely period involved in that. Of course, there are CSJ—some of the consequences are so perverse that various back-dating rules that operate with a range of you have to address them not as bits of money but as current benefits. How are these to be dealt with under perverse outcomes of that choice of architecture. universal credit? We have dealt with one of the outcomes, but another My next question is: where waiting days are applicable is that when this comes in a population of people who under current arrangements—typically three days—are are currently in work, who may be in work in the there any that are seven days, and how is this going to future, and who have got savings, are going to find that operate in the new world? Clause 6(1)(b) envisages those hard-earned savings for a deposit on a house are entitlement being denied for up to seven days other now going to result in an adjustment of their benefit than at the start of a period of claim. Perhaps we can entitlement. That strikes me as unfair and perverse. If have some examples of what the Minister has in mind. one is looking for fairness, one needs to have It is understood that Clause 6(1)(a) may be used to intergenerational sympathy for the combination of exclude certain groups that remain the responsibility factors that young people face in the current market, of the local authority: for example, prisoners and GC 423 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 424 children leaving care. Can the Minister please confirm—or this through. I imagine—I will check carefully now—that let us have a note if he is unable to do so today—that waiting days will not apply when you are on the the type of exclusions contemplated for universal credit system and it will be a kind of run-on effective link. I exclude access to all components of the benefits that will double-check that waiting days will not apply in are to be subsumed into the universal credit? I also those circumstances because my understanding currently draw the noble Lord’s attention to the Delegated is that there is a run-on and that is the same effective Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report claim. So the whole concern around waiting days on this issue, which says: would be very much diminished. In fact, I am reassured “Clause 6 provides for restrictions on entitlement that are left almost instantly that the intention is not to have largely to negative regulations. The power in subsection (1)(a), waiting days as people move on and off the system in which is subject to no constraint in the Bill, could affect entitlement those circumstances. As to the question of when very significantly. We draw it to the attention of the House so that Clause 6(1)(b) would apply if not at the start of the the Minister may be invited to satisfy the House that the negative claim, it would apply to the entire claim if it covered procedure affords adequate control over the exercise of the power. Unless the House is satisfied with the Minister’s response, we less than seven days. recommend that the affirmative procedure should apply”. Amendment 24 would prevent us having exceptions I should be grateful if the noble Lord could also deal if we make provision for waiting days or to prevent with that point. I beg to move. very short periods of entitlement. We envisage that regulations under Clause 6(3) might be used in a claimant’s favour: for example, where there is only a 5.15 pm short break between periods of entitlement, a claimant Lord Freud: My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 23 may not have to serve waiting days before becoming and 24. Amendment 23 removes the power to make entitled again. I am sorry that I am repeating that regulations for there to be no entitlement to universal point. Although we have made several changes moving credit in prescribed circumstances. Amendment 24 from negative to affirmative resolutions, on this one removes a power for regulations to be made for there we propose to stay with negative ones. Given this to be exceptions to any limited entitlement or waiting explanation, I hope that noble Lords will not press day rules. It might be helpful if I indicate the types of their amendments. circumstances in which we envisage these powers being used. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful to the The regulation-making power in subsection 1(a) Minister for that response on the issue of negative or will provide that there is no entitlement to universal affirmative, to which we may wish to return. In order credit in certain cases where the usual conditions of to be clear, perhaps I may use the trade disputes issue entitlement are otherwise satisfied. As is the case now, as an example. Under current arrangements, there are a number of specified groups will not be able to access certain trade disputes under which benefits can be universal credit. These may include certain prisoners withheld. Under the universal credit, there is an amalgam and children leaving full-time care who remain the of benefits, including housing. As regards the sort of responsibility of the local authority, where payment of exemption that it is envisaged would apply under universal credit would lead to duplication of provision. Clause 6, does it cover all the separate benefits that This may include people involved in trade disputes. could give rise to similar exclusions now? For example, Amendment 23 would prevent us being able to restrict would housing being included in the universal credit entitlement to people in these circumstances. This still be subject to the same trade dispute rules, or will would result in duplication of provision in some cases, separate rules apply to that? That is not a very elegant which I am sure is not the intention. way of phrasing the question. I will address the questions of the noble Lord, Lord Lord Freud: My Lords, our intention is to have it McKenzie, about waiting days, which constituted the broadly the same. We have to work through the exact main thrust of his comments. Housing benefit is dependent detail of the regulations but our intention is not to on entitlement to means-tested benefit, which involves change the main thrust of that set of regulations. waiting days—for example, jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support allowance. There is also a Lord McKenzie of Luton: Specifically, if housing waiting period in practice for housing benefits. In benefit were not currently subject to those rules, how addition, where benefits such as housing benefit are would that be unpicked? Perhaps the answer is that paid for in complete weeks, there is no provision for it is. short claims of a few days. In practice, when we move from the application of waiting days in the reality of Lord Freud: We would wrap them together in the the universal credit world, there will be far fewer universal credit but maintain the same regime for instances of this start-up arrangement because people trading disputes. That would be the intention. Clearly, will go on to universal credit for their entire application we have not written this regulation in detail and we and will stay on it. will have a chance to look at it in some detail before The noble Lord asked about linking rules. Our we do. intention is that people will work their way off the system—that would be a very good outcome—but Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful again to the would remain effectively known to the system for Minister. We should like to reflect and read the record another two years. So that is effectively how the linking on that issue, and it is something to which we may rules would work: you would come back onto your wish to return. In the mean time, I beg leave to taper on an automatic basis. I have not actually thought withdraw the amendment. GC 425 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 426

Amendment 23 withdrawn. assume that they are paid more frequently. So for many, the reality of working life is still weekly or Amendment 24 not moved. fortnightly wages. Moreover, where universal credit is paid on top of a monthly wage, it is not clear why it has to mimic it, nor Clause 6 agreed. why it has to do so for those who are not expected to seek paid work. At present, in-work tax credit recipients are able to choose between weekly and four-weekly Clause 7 : Basis of awards payments—or perhaps it is two-weekly. Those who receive child tax credit above the family element—those Amendment 25 on lower incomes—are more likely to receive it weekly. Moved by Baroness Lister of Burtersett Another reality of modern working life—I am very grateful to Richard Greenwood, who wrote to me 25: Clause 7, page 3, line 35, leave out from “payable” to end after Second Reading, for drawing this to my attention—is of line 36 and insert “twice per month” payday loans. Mr Greenwood points out that a whole credit industry called payday loans has risen up on the Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, this is the back of predominantly low-income earners who get first time I have moved an amendment, so I hope your paid monthly. They find it hard to budget properly, so Lordships will be gentle with me if I make any mistakes.. often obtain expensive, short-term credit on the pseudo- First, I shall make a couple of apologies. I am sorry security of their next monthly income day.Mr Greenwood that I was not here last week. I was one of those informs me that in 2010, Consumer Focus published a caught out by the change in recess dates. I apologise, report that suggested that payday lending in the UK too, for the length of my opening remarks, but this is had quadrupled in the preceding four years, with an an issue on which I feel strongly, as do a number of estimated 4.1 million loans being made in 2009-10. organisations, such as the Women’s Budget Group and The report was called, Keeping the Plates Spinning. I the Child Poverty Action Group, both of which I am fear that monthly payments will mean either many very involved with. more plates being smashed to smithereens or—as Mr Greenwood warns—many more low-income families The amendments are variations on a theme. The taking out expensive, short-term credit. Even worse, aim is not to get frequency of payment written into they could turn to loan sharks. primary legislation, as that clearly is not appropriate, but to try to persuade the Minister to think again The point was made in a committee of the other about the decision to make payments of universal place that similar concerns were raised when benefit credit monthly. In the other place, the Minister said payments were changed from weekly to fortnightly, that the Government are sufficiently open-minded to but that the expressed fears did not materialise. In recognise the issues that monthly payments generate response, I point out that moving from fortnightly to and that they are not ruling any option in or out. monthly payments is a much greater leap. Also, according to Fran Bennett of the Women’s Budget Group, recent Given that presumably this decision is being made findings from qualitative research with low-income on the balance of the argument and does not affect the families carried out by Oxford University and funded fundamental architecture of universal credit, I hope by the Economic and Social Research Council and the that the spirit of open-mindedness will prevail today. I Department for International Development suggest believe that the balance of evidence does not support that we should not be too complacent about the monthly payments and will argue that they could impact of the earlier move to fortnightly payments. undermine the universal credit architecture, the importance One respondent, a woman with a partner and four of which the Minister has emphasised. children, said: The rationale for monthly payments has been set “Before the switch to fortnightly payments I didn’t have to out helpfully in the second universal credit policy struggle with anything … with all these changes I’m just struggling briefing note. There appear to be two main elements … before I never struggled … like, never”. to this rationale. The first is that universal credit Another respondent, a lone mother, said that, should mimic work and receipt of a salary so that families are able to manage their financial affairs in “two weeks is a long time … now they have put that fortnightly the manner that best reflects the demands of modern and all … it’s just wrong”. life, whether they are in or out of work, so that they More generally, the Women’s Budget Group cites the will be better prepared for the reality of working life. 2008 Families and Children Study that states that one The second is that it fits well with the overarching in four families with children runs out of money universal credit narrative of simplicity and preserving always, most often or more often than not before the work incentives. end of the week or month. Among the lowest-income Let us consider the realities of working life. The one-fifth, the figure is 37 per cent—nearly two in five. departmental briefing note states that 75 per cent of This is not an exceptional problem affecting only a all those in employment are paid monthly. Of course, small minority of supposedly inadequate budgeters. the obverse of that is that one-quarter are not. Estimates Research evidence points to how well most people on given to me suggest that at least one in five are still low incomes manage their budgets. However, numerous paid weekly or fortnightly. According to the briefing studies also reveal the stress caused by budgeting on a note, as many as half those earning less than £10,000 low income, particularly for women, who still tend to per year are not paid monthly. I think we can safely have responsibility for day-to-day budgeting in low-income GC 427 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 428 families and who thus act as the shock absorbers of the Secretary of State— poverty.Even if most people eventually adapt to monthly “(most people in work are paid monthly) is plainly ludicrous ... budgeting, the long-term consequences of the difficulties my experience is that when low income families do manage to created in the shorter term could be immense and obtain work this is rarely the idyllic ‘monthly paid’ work IDS could undermine work incentives if people are saddled refers to … at this level of the economy most people going into with debt. The Minister has already told us that the work are weekly paid ... I know this not just because I observe closely our customers’ income patterns but also as an employer typical family in receipt of universal credit will have we offer all staff (other than management) choice of weekly or virtually no savings on which to fall back. monthly income and weekly is the choice of nearly all entry level I am afraid that it is not good enough to make job takers (and despite a scheme to ease them into monthly pay) vague promises of appropriate budgeting support for ... Finally I am a Conservative (I even stood for Parliament once) those who cannot manage monthly repayments. This, and I broadly support many aspects of the intended welfare reform (particularly simplifying its mind-boggling complexity we are told, might be financial advice—will the Minister etc) but this concept of ‘monthlyising’ low incomes is clearly and please explain who will provide this advice about totally the most out of touch proposal imaginable”. budgeting?—or it might be interim and bridging loans I am tempted to say at this point that I rest my case, or possibly more frequent payments in exceptional but I am afraid that I have some more points to make. circumstances. Does this panoply of special assistance, which implies that the problem lies with the claimant According to the Women’s Budget Group, advisers rather than the system, not strike noble Lords as on debt and welfare benefits in Oxfordshire recently rather sullying the narrative of simplicity that monthly asked some clients their views on monthly payments. payments are supposed to exemplify? Indeed, according They expressed real fears about not being able to to the Financial Times, officials have admitted that manage and getting into debt. One new claimant of this special assistance could cost extra money but that employment and support allowance said that, the plans have not yet been fully worked out or costed. “it is very difficult to budget with two-weekly payments; impossible I ask that a fully costed plan is presented to your with monthly”. Lordships’ House before monthly payments are finally A client with mental health problems said that he was agreed. still finding it difficult to adjust to the change to fortnightly payments because he felt that he was not 5.30 pm very good at managing money or at adapting to change. Of course he might qualify for the promised budgeting I know that some housing providers are also worried support, but, as the Women’s Budget Group points about the possible implications of monthly payments out, for arrears where housing costs are paid as part of the universal credit. I return to Mr Greenwood, whom I “this would mean having to label himself as failing.” quoted earlier. He is a responsible credit provider who These worries are reflected in departmental research is very concerned about monthly payments—even if into perceptions of welfare reform and universal credit irresponsible providers, particularly loan sharks, could, among claimants and others published last week. If I suspect, be rubbing their hands in glee. Mr Greenwood noble Lords will indulge me, I will read from it. The has kindly given me permission to quote from his report states: e-mailed letter, which makes a case against monthly “The prospect of a monthly payment was highly contentious payments very eloquently. He states: in this research. In particular, those on low incomes anticipated “At this stage I need to tell you my own perspective ... UK that they would have great difficulty in budgeting as they are used Homemaker (my business) extends small amounts of credit (on to more frequent payments and do not tend to have much of a basic household items like fitted carpets and washing machines financial buffer to fall back on. Some of those working were more etc) to low income households across Scotland and N. England. receptive, but these tended to be people who were earning more We consider ourselves (not least through self-interest) to be and already being paid on a monthly basis. Many low paid ‘responsible lenders’ and as such have developed a set of credit workers reported being paid more frequently and they reacted in rules based on ‘knowing our customers’ and ‘reasonable affordability’. a similarly negative way to this proposition to those currently To this end we go to massive ends to establish not just income receiving benefits ... Only a small minority spontaneously appreciated levels but also frequency and dates of income in order to help that monthly payments could prepare those claimants not currently customers micro-manage their usually scarce cash. Most of our in the workforce for working life. Overall, there was a strong customers are on benefits whether this be solely on benefits or a feeling that there should be options, or at least an opt-out from combination of low earnings plus benefits. I have over 30 years the default offered where required”. experience in this type of activity and the notion that ‘monthlyising’ There is a contradiction at the heart of this proposal. (excuse the Dylan Thomasism) a low overall family income As part of the policy rationale, the departmental somehow prepares a family for work is complete anathema to me. briefing paper states: The only thing monthly pay will prepare many low income families for is a week with a full belly followed by three weeks of “Making decisions over household finances and budgeting in hunger! When I started out in this business (mid 70s) the pattern the most appropriate way to meet family needs is best done by the then was Friday payday, so full bellies Friday, Saturday, Sunday family itself”. but then the empty bellies thereafter could be withstood because Yet the Government are imposing their own views another Friday was soon coming. The situation improved over about one of the most crucial factors in budgeting: the three decades as different benefits were paid on different days and particularly where mixed with low earnings, low income at least frequency of payment. I suggest that the reason is that became very frequent. Waiting a week for the next low income the desire to create, was bad enough then (and now) … for many though the prospect “the conditions for attitudinal and behavioural change”,—[Official of waiting a month will be unbearable! (Simple analogy: if you Report, 13/10/11; col. 628.] were thirsty and in an arid place would you prefer a survival size bottle of water each day or a barrel once per month on the hope it emphasised by the Minister at Second Reading, in line lasts? This intended action will be bad enough for many families with nudge theory, has blinded the Government to the but the justification used by IDS”— reality of living on a low income. GC 429 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 430

[BARONESS LISTER OF BURTERSETT] correctly asked for those to be made clearer. She is In its recent report on means testing, in an otherwise right that if this is to be done properly and the system pretty clean bill of health for the impact assessment is to be equal to the task, it might cost more than the on universal credit, the National Audit Office observed department currently thinks. That has the potential to its failure to address the question of claimant burden. wreck some of the elegance of the simplicity around I do not know if the briefing that arrived today does universal credit, which would be a bad thing. However, this, but certainly the original one did not. However, before the Committee can make a judgment on the this claimant burden does not derive from the nature Government’s position, we need to listen carefully to of the universal credit means test itself. I fear that the what is planned. Government are creating a big burden for claimants that could corrode the universal credit architecture Secondly, this is a significant change because there and undermine its credibility with claimants. It smacks is no appeal on frequency of payment. As colleagues of the kind of social engineering that Conservatives know, throughout the benefits system there is a highly have traditionally been suspicious of. developed set of circumstances for people who feel that they are being short-changed or not being properly In a recent Parliamentary Answer the Minister served. There are means of recourse through systems stated that: that are well known, well used and well supported by “The department has adopted the principles of user-centred the legal advice community, pressure groups and the design for universal credit ... This places customers at the heart of like. There is no right of appeal here, so if we get it the design process to ensure their needs are reflected in the way wrong, people will have nowhere else to go. policies are delivered”.—[Official Report, 3/10/11; col. WA 156.] Yet the department’s own research that I have just There is an issue too about monthly payments. cited indicates that this is simply not the case with Monthly is not the same as 12 times a year. People pay regard to frequency of payment. Moreover, the researchers their bills monthly because that is how often the bills warn that monthly payment is one of a number of come in. So it is not just a simple question of weekly potential risks that could jeopardise the successful payments or not, it is actually that people being paid delivery of universal credit. They advise the department on a weekly basis know when the utility bills will come to consider mitigating action. We are offering the in and know where savings have to be made in order to Minister a number of courses of mitigating action in meet them. It is not an easy thing to move from weekly these amendments. I should say that the noble Baroness, payments to 12 times a year. Lady Meacher, gives her apologies for not being here I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady and says that she strongly supports the amendments Lister, about the payday loans issue, and I think that it and will pursue them on Report if necessary. will become seriously significant. I would draw attention I hope first and foremost that the Minister will to what I am sure colleagues already know intellectually, reconsider the decision to pay universal credit monthly— which is that discretionary payments made under the or, at the very least, will allow the claimants to choose Social Fund are flying up under the changes we are between fortnightly and monthly payments in line making now. The Government say that we need not with the Government’s own philosophy of choice. As worry too much about it because there are local a fallback, a third amendment would allow a claimant circumstances—400 of them in England, not to mention proactively to choose fortnightly payments while retaining Scotland and Wales—and they will fill the gap. I monthly payments as the default, and the fourth would remain to be convinced of that. We need to be careful require a review of the impact of monthly payments that we are not creating a loan shark’s charter at the should they go ahead. I beg to move. expense of lower income households in our communities. We need an impact assessment, and many noble Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope: My Lords, I am privileged Lords were right to draw attention to that. I look enough to share the billing on the amendment with forward to seeing the document that was magicked to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett. She has some effect out of the Minister’s top hat earlier today, made a very powerful and comprehensive case, and and long may that continue. If we have one of those there is not an awful lot left to say, except one or two every time the Committee sits, we will make some things. This is a significant change. In my previous serious progress. In the end, however, this is a question incarnation, as a member of the Select Committee in of choice. For me, Amendment 27 does it perfectly. It the other place, I was always surprised at the extent to states, which weekly budgeting is a feature of life that is qualitatively different. If you do not live under those “so that it is payable twice per month where requested by the circumstances, it is hard to appreciate how difficult it claimant”. is. A change to monthly payments would be extremely I understand the driver to replicate the monthly situation. significant. I feel that it is part of my duty to protect Obviously everyone in this Committee has a natural the Minister of State from his normal missionary zeal rhythm of payments constructed around monthly bills, in many of these cultural attempts to change the way direct debit payments and all the rest of it. The ability people behave. They are perfectly logical, but potentially for the claimant to request that this is the way that really quite dangerous if we take them too far and too they work and to do otherwise would cause them fast. serious distress would still leave them with a default The first thing I hope that the Minister will do for position where they would largely get what they want, the Committee is put some flesh on the Government’s and the people who are nearer the labour market proposed mitigation factors which talk about exceptions would be perfectly happy to accept the discipline that and budget support. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, they need to make this work successfully. GC 431 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 432

5.45 pm be using the system, and having been told so clearly The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, also made that only a small minority appreciated monthly payments the point that this will create pressure on women as a route and the majority clearly felt it was a problem, because women are predominantly the week-to- is the Minister at all persuaded by that? week managers—we have to be careful about this I have two other points to add. I am particularly characterisation because it is gender-typing of the concerned about the impact on those who are in that worst kind—but by and large in my experience the territory between work and out of work. The most males pay the utility monthly bills and the week-to-week compelling argument made today was the fact that if household budgets for food and dietary provision are only half those people are paid monthly at the moment, mainly carried by the women. It is the week-to-week the whole idea that moving to monthly payments budgets that will be put under particular pressure if mimics work simply falls flat. If people are currently we move in this direction without thinking about it. paid weekly or fortnightly, they could be in the bizarre Finally, there was some experience of a change of position of having their wages paid weekly or monthly this kind in 2009 when we went from weekly to fortnightly and their universal credit paid monthly, which seems benefits, as some colleagues may recall, and I think the ridiculous. At the moment with tax credits people can Government are founding this on the fact that that opt to be paid weekly. was easy. I do not think that it was as easy as people I declare an interest as having been involved in imagine. I would like to see the evidence for saying advising Ministers on the design of tax credits, as that the change was easy—I think it was quite difficult. noble Lords will know. I can understand the desire of However, there is a world of difference between moving the centre to want to simplify this. I really understand from weekly to fortnightly and moving to monthly, why having everybody on monthly payments would be and we underestimate that at our peril. an awful lot easier for the process, as well as the design These are significant amendments. I do not think problems in terms of processing capacity of having we are asking for much. Unless the Government are people opt into a variety of options. However, this prepared to say that they are offering a really in-depth, feels so important that if the noble Lord is so face-to-face, money-upfront support system for those committed—and I know he is—to the aims of universal who fall foul of these new proposed monthly payments—I credit in supporting people in work and to getting the will listen with great interest to whether or not that is architecture right, it would seem that this is a fairly the case—we risk causing additional hardship to the fundamental piece of the architecture, and we get it financial limits that people are going to be faced with wrong at our peril. in future. I am delighted to support my noble friend of I have one final point. I spent some years working many years’ standing in the work that she has done. with single parents. Most of them had come out of She is an academic, she is an expert—she knows what relationships or marriages. One of the things that they she is doing. She is right and I support her. always said they liked about being single—there were many things they did not like that were very hard—was Lord Northbourne: My Lords, I do not want to that they could control the money. I heard many of delay the Committee. I am sure there are many people them describe the struggles that they had had to in this room who have more experience of these issues protect the money coming into the household and to than I do. However, during 16 years chairing the youth have it spent on the children. They described a whole department of Toynbee Hall down in Tower Hamlets range of situations that I am not in any way suggesting we came across quite a lot of problems with moneylenders are typical, but they are none the less not invisible or in particular. I strongly support fortnightly payment. irrelevant either. Some said that they quite often had a Monthly payment will give much more opportunity situation where their partners would periodically go for unscrupulous traders to profit from budgeters who out on a binge and spend the money. There were are perhaps not very experienced. people who had quite a bit of money who would say: “I fed the children on child benefit till they got back”. Baroness Sherlock: My Lords, I have little to add to One thing about credits being paid directly to them the rather remarkable contribution made by my noble and coming in weekly was that at least they knew there friend Lady Lister, but I want to address a couple of was another payment coming along soon. If in this points. situation one partner spends the money unwisely, it is an awful long wait until the next payment comes in. First, I was delighted to see the DWP research Would the Minister consider that alongside some of report, Perceptions of Welfare Reform and Universal the later issues we are going to discuss about the Social Credit, and I commend the Minister and the department Fund and single payments being made only to one for taking this kind of research so seriously. The partner or to a joint account? This is an area of which foreword to that report says: the Minister would be well advised to take careful “The Department for Work and Pensions … is committed to consideration. involving users throughout the development of Universal Credit, from setting out the criteria for a good experience to detailed design decisions. This user involvement helps ensure issues are Baroness Campbell of Surbiton: My Lords, I would known, understood and mitigated as the Universal Credit system also like to support the amendment of the noble is being built”. Baroness, Lady Lister, and congratulate her on her I want to commend that. I thought it was a very good first amendment. What a good first amendment. Disability decision. However, it means that if you ask people and charities, including the full membership of the Disability they give you answers, it really is wise to listen to them. Benefits Consortium, have expressed grave concerns Having sought the opinion of those who are going to to me that many disabled claimants, particularly GC 433 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 434

[BARONESS CAMPBELL OF SURBITON] an intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler, those with mental health problems or learning the chief executive of Relate. She referred to the disabilities, will struggle to manage their budgeting 120,000 most chaotic families about whom the Prime over monthly intervals. With the proposed replacement Minister is particularly concerned, and for whom he of the discretionary Social Fund and by confusing an has given specific responsibility to the Department for unpredictable plethora of local schemes, accessing Communities and Local Government. I would be very crisis payment when budgeting problems arise will be interested to learn what assessment has been made of very hard for this group of people also. the impact of these changes on those chaotic families. I support a man with mild learning and behavioural Perhaps the Minister will consult the Department for difficulties. He can just about manage his two-weekly Communities and Local Government about what the payments and often, at the end of the two weeks, it is change might mean for them. up to his friends—normally me—to sub him until the Thirdly, in my capacity as vice-chair of the All-Party end of that two-week period. I have no idea how he Parliamentary Group for Looked after Children and will manage on a monthly basis. He falls under the Care Leavers, it seems to me that this change might radar of most help and I know that he would not seek contribute to more children coming into care because it anywhere but me. So it also puts a burden on their parents, who are somewhat chaotic, will be put families, friends and other poor relatives who are often under additional stress as they try to make ends meet. in the same situation to make up the shortfall. I This might be an additional burden on them that will support the noble Baroness and would like to know lead to family breakdown. I hope that that is not what the Minister has in mind for this particular overstating the case, but what I heard troubled me, group of people to cope with a monthly payment. and I would like to know more about the impact from moving from weekly to fortnightly payments. There Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, at Second Reading I seems to be some questioning of the evidence that that think all of us supported the idea of simplicity for was been done without much harm. I look forward to universal credit. Of course, simplicity works both ways: the Minister’s reassurance on these issues. it works in favour of the beneficiary and in favour of the department. If you offer people a choice, you are Lord Boswell of Aynho: My Lords, I will speak mucking up that simplicity as far as the department is briefly. Points have been made very eloquently by the concerned and, inevitably—and I am sure my noble noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and others. There is a friend will tell me—there will be a cost in so doing. He common concern that this should be got right. Perhaps may even be able to quantify that cost. there is a slight subtext that if this is the nail in the As most of the Committee will know, my wife runs shoe that gets the whole thing discredited because it a small business which for part of the year depends does not work or gives rise to disturbing social entirely on attracting extra casual staff. Two years ago, consequences, we will have lost the great prize of she went to them and said, “It would make life a lot universal credit that many of us want. easier for me if we could pay your wages monthly For the reasons that my noble friend just enunciated, rather than weekly”. Some of them immediately were there is an argument against complexity and having a very happy to say yes; others to say no. Eventually, double system. We have heard about the difficulties of without undue coercion or persuasion—except from having weekly, two-weekly and monthly payments. It their colleagues—they decided they would all go on a could make things difficult and give rise to error and monthly wages basis. That is fine, but what I find potential arrears, for example. We do not really know difficulty with in the amendments is the proposal to what will happen before we undertake this. One has to offer people a choice and for the department to have judge whether to go ahead and see what happens. If to stick to that choice. For me, payments should be the Minister can explain with sensitivity how he intends either fortnightly or monthly. We have heard very to introduce safeguards, I am with him. good arguments against monthly payments, which I The most important point is picked up in Amendment 28. accept. However, the second amendment in this group— We need to have a mechanism, as I suggested at Second the either/or amendment—is just plain loopy. Reading, for assessing after the event whether this works—and, if it does not work, which we hope it will, The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I, too, thank the for applying the brakes and changing it without loss of noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, for tabling face. It is worth looking at this. There may be good these amendments and speaking to them so persuasively. reasons for doing it, but if it puts undue pressure on I was very concerned to hear what she had to say. some of the most vulnerable people and their families, Three issues came to my mind. First, I thought of the we should recognise that. In a wider context, it would children of alcoholic parents and of parents who not be worth saving small sums if we found that we misuse substances. If these individuals have a large could not deliver our intended objectives. sum of money in their hand, they can go on a bender and spend huge sums on alcohol, crack and other 6pm substances. If there is no hope of getting money fairly Lord McAvoy: My Lords, although I did not intend shortly for their children, the children will be in a very to speak after the amendment was moved so excellently difficult position. by my noble friend Lady Lister of Burtersett, she My second concern is more general. I was reminded holds to the hope that the Minister’s attitude is not set of it at lunchtime today, at a meeting of the Associate in stone, so I have decided to contribute a point of Parliamentary Group for Parents and Families, which view. One thing about the other place along the Corridor my noble friend Lord Northbourne chairs. There was is that its Members come from various backgrounds, GC 435 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 436 especially from working people. That House achieves I think that really said it all. It is a question of choice, a balance and gets a view that perhaps individuals and that should be what we give individuals in this over here do not have. When people over there hear a situation. We know the number of times families have view, it may influence how they vote on legislation. gone hungry when women have not had control of the My noble friend Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope said money, for all the reasons that have been explained that he does not have much experience of this, but I previously. This particular option is the one that we sure that if he thinks back to where he comes from— should all consolidate behind. More than anything Cranhill, a housing estate in Glasgow—he will remember else, I say this because the more people who speak in that when the family allowance of eight shillings was favour not just of this amendment but of what is being paid on every week on Tuesday, it was a lifesaver. He said in all these amendments, the more likely we are to was also correct to point out that it is being sexist persuade the Minister to have another look at this, against women to say that they carried the burden of and above all to take it back to his colleagues, who budgeting. They were responsible for making sure that may have rather different views, and to try and persuade the family budget and the household were run properly. them. Certainly that was the case in my family, one with a very matriarchal mother. Without her, I think our Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I support family would have been lost. I can assure colleagues the amendment of my noble friend Lady Lister, which that the certainty of a weekly payment, not a monthly she moved so powerfully, and I certainly hope it will payment, is still very important to a certain sector of cause the Minister to reflect on the issues she has society. raised. I want to speak to a related issue that could be The amendments offer choice. I know that the raised under Clause 29, but I raise it now because I noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, criticised that as perhaps think it will make worse the situation that my noble being confusing, but the noble Lord, Lord Boswell of friend has described, and I am fearful. This issue is the Aynho, in very reasonable tones defended and advocated payment methods for housing benefits—not to whom it. I certainly believe in the choice outlined in these they are paid, which we will come on to later, but how amendments. In addition, other amendments would they are paid. I hope the Minister can give us reassurances provide the certainty of knowing that these decisions, on that, and if not, that we can follow this up in the which will impact on so many people’s lives, will be discussion afterwards. covered by a review. We can look at the evidence to see YourLordships will know that HB is very complicated the effect of different types of payment periods. to assess and to administer. Local authorities will I am encouraged by the Minister’s attitude and I often not allow a member of staff to fly solo on hope that my noble friend Lady Lister has read it handling HB claims until they have had some six right. I want to bring to the debate the point of view of months—I repeat six months—training and chaperoning. someone from a family for whom, when we were This is almost as much as a police officer. The reason, growing up, that payment of eight shillings of family of course, is that it involves checking entitlement, allowance was worth a lot. I am sure that quite a lot of rents, family size, the non-dependence in the home, people remember the family allowance, although I had property size, the landlord’s veracity, any disability, better be quiet about age. I can assure the Minister backdating, separating out service charges—including and my colleagues that that eight shillings a week in fuel, water rates and energy bills—and careful checking family allowance, paid every Tuesday to the mother, against fraud, because it is a big-ticket item. It takes a the person who actually ran the household and looked good local authority with intimate knowledge of its after the children, was absolutely essential. I hope locality an average of between seven and 10 days to therefore that the Minister can see his way at least to process a housing benefit claim. Crawley Borough considering some movement on that. Council, for example, which is a very high performer, processes about 40 per cent of new claims in one day Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, before the debate and the rest in under 10. Nonetheless, do we think that continues, I have to say that I am afraid that the noble universal credit staff can deliver a benefit as complicated Lord, Lord McAvoy, has somewhat misunderstood as HB? what I said. I came down firmly in favour of fortnightly In future, this will be done online by a family in payments. What I did not say, if for no other reason, Exeter, with queries, I understand, to a call centre in was that the move from weekly to fortnightly payments Warrington. That call centre will be handling over is so recent. I do not believe that it has yet bedded 30,000 new HB claims a week: nearly 7,000 a day. down. Families competent in financial management may be able to cope; we calculate that perhaps 40 per cent of Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I congratulate families are ready to use the online process. Those who the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on her excellent exposition are most dependent on HB are the same group who of the case and the passion with which she presented it are most dependent upon and in need of weekly and to us. Like my noble friend Lord Northbourne, for fortnightly payments: people with, say, mental health many years I have been and still am involved with the problems or learning difficulties, or other people who Peckham Settlement charity. I know that there was for whatever reason lead chaotic lives. These are the considerable concern when the money that the women people who find that their paperwork is lost, that had charge of ran out for one reason or another. landlords are unhelpful, that call backs go missing, I am very impressed by the range of options here, that deadlines pass. I understand that there is a 63-page but I would really like to support the one identified by form to fill in: one mistake, and no money gets paid. I the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, because hope the call centre line is free. Is it? The lines will be GC 437 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 438

[BARONESS HOLLIS OF HEIGHAM] computers already communicate with each other on jammed, callers will have to call back repeatedly, and these issues and the whole system is online—get them they will have to hang on for long periods of time to feed their data into the central universal credit while their call is transferred to someone who knows processing centre. After all, the ATLAS project means something about HB—that is, if the call has not been that local authorities have a direct link into JSA, ESA cut off in the mean time through the handing-on and IS. On top of that, they can access electoral process and they have to start all over again. records, they can verify residency, they have knowledge All that is handled now with skill, patience, good of local HMOs, and they have street knowledge. No will and huge experience by local authority and housing call centre 200 miles away can identify a contrived authority offices. Local government officers find that tenancy, or whether too many individuals all appear to 66 per cent of all those on housing benefit need the be claiming housing benefit for a shared property, or face-to-face service they offer. The Government are whether rent arrears are beginning to mount up and assuming that only 10 per cent will do so, and that that intervention is necessary. Local housing benefit staff 10 per cent will be serviced by Jobcentre Plus offices, can and do, and they act on it. Having a local contact whose staff are not only not experienced in housing point would also stop the phones being jammed by matters but in physical terms are often inconveniently worried landlords wanting to know whether their tenant located. For example, one district in Kent with 100,000 is going to get housing benefit, which is essential if we people has no Jobcentre Plus in its area. Claimants assume that most tenants will in future get their housing needing a face-to-face service in the north of the benefit paid direct to them. Landlords want the security district have a £9 bus ride to get to and from the of a paid rent, and hence their demand that rents be Jobcentre Plus offices, while those in the south have a paid directly to them, but they also rely on cash flow. £7 bus ride—a day’s allowance for the claimant gone Cumbersome administration that makes the timing of on a day’s travelling costs. their payment from the tenant unpredictable is at least as significant. At the moment, the only experience that DWP staff have of housing issues is from 200,000 home owners Claimants who have steady circumstances and basic nationwide, less than 5 per cent of the jobseeker’s competence will cope with an online system supported allowance caseload. Housing cost assessments will go by a call centre and may very well be able to cope with up from 200,000 to 4.83 million. So I have some monthly payments. However, the claimants about whom questions for the Minister, and I apologise for not so many of us around this Table, as well as local giving him advance warning of them, but they are authorities and housing associations, are most worried, absolutely integral to the whole issue of how payments are vulnerable, chaotic and prone to error. They may are made. have literacy difficulties, they are in constant flux and they will not cope. Many of the most vulnerable are Will claimants get an itemised statement of the also clients of other statutory services. No call centre elements making up their universal credit so that they can deal with them or will interface with them. The can see what they should get in housing benefit and local HB office does this each and every day. thus, what is often the trickiest and most difficult to Tax credits are relatively easy because they are compute, be able to compare it with previous awards? based on the previous year’s income, with fixed periods Will claims get slowed down to the slowest part of the of claim. Yet even here, as I know to my pain, the process? If there is delay over housing benefit, will the computer nearly toppled over and the backlogs were claimant know that that is where the difficulty lies, and huge because no one had appreciated the rollercoaster will they none the less receive the rest of their universal nature of the lives of so many lone parents. Half of credit, which may be more open to real-time assessment? them had more than a dozen changes of circumstance At the moment, if a claimant gets their jobseeker’s per year, many connected to childcare. The computer allowance paid, the landlord can be pretty confident was often three changes behind. HB is far more that they will get their housing benefit. Will that complicated than tax credit. It exposes the tenant to happen in the future? the much greater risk of homelessness, and no unemployed If a claim has to be investigated further, perhaps tenant facing homelessness will concern himself with because the family needs an extra bedroom because of looking for a job rather than trying to secure his home, disability, and it takes a fortnight or more to get the which is the outcome that we want him to seek. required information back from GPs, will the entire We will strengthen UC and protect some of the universal credit payment be held up until it is resolved? clients of UC most at risk by developing a partnership What, as my noble friend so eloquently argued, will with local authorities, particularly as they will be the family live on in the meanwhile? What plan B does holding and distributing the discretionary housing the Minister have in mind for the individual living on allowance to soften the difficulties that will follow the breadline, especially since that same individual from the tough new HB changes that we will no doubt may want the housing benefit to be paid directly to the debate in a later session. For the Government, local landlord? However, the Minister wants it paid directly authorities represent a back-up resource that it would to the tenant, who will now be far more exposed to the be foolish to squander. I realise that I have sprung vagaries of administration as well as to the temptation some questions on the Minister. I hope that, if necessary, of fraud. we can follow this up with a meeting. They were Perhaps I can suggest a plan B to him: get local triggered by the concerns raised by my noble friend’s authority staff who are highly experienced, skilled and amendment, and by the additional difficulties inherent swift to do the housing benefit calculation for the in the complexity of the nature of HB, which the DWP and—given that central and local government system as presently constructed cannot begin to address. GC 439 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 440

6.15 pm In the policy briefing note published on 12 September, we confirmed that the universal credit will be paid Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I support the monthly. However, we do not intend to specify the amendment of my noble friend Lady Lister and payment frequency in primary legislation. As with all congratulate her on an incredibly impressive first existing benefits, this will be dealt with in regulations amendment. We look forward to many more. I hope made under the existing powers in the Social Security that the Minister can see that we are here to help. He Administration Act 1992. That approach gave us the has heard not only the voice of experience today but flexibility, for example, to increase payment periods particular proposals from my noble friend Lady Hollis from weekly to two-weekly for most out-of-work benefits. to help him on housing benefit issues. I hope that this The amended provision would require the Government well of experience and good will will enable us to move to pay universal credit more frequently than monthly. forward on universal credit. Amendment 27, for instance, goes on to provide that One thing that came across very clearly in the in some cases payments would be made twice monthly. debate was the almost universal voice of experience, I need to make the point about the difference between whether it was people’s own household experience or assessment periods and payment periods, which is that of people such as my noble friend Lord McAvoy important to bear in mind. Currently, existing out-of-work who worked with poor people and helped them claim benefits are made on an assessment period of a week, their benefits in the existing maze of complexity. We with a fortnightly payment cycle. That is fairly typical. have heard powerful voices warning of the risks of The universal credit benefit represents a new approach imposing on everyone the monthly payment basis, for focused clearly on work, which encourages out-of-work all the reasons that have been heard. households to budget on a monthly rather than a There are particular issues for women. My noble fortnightly basis in the belief that it will better prepare friend Lady Lister said that it is largely mothers who people for the reality of working life. The figures have manage poverty in the household. The noble Lord, already been used. Currently, 75 per cent of all those Lord Kirkwood, was on the same page on that. Studies in employment and 51 per cent of those earning less show that by and large the male member of the than £10,000 a year receive earnings monthly.In addition, household is more likely to be responsible for monthly monthly direct debits for household bills are often bills, whereas women tend to do the weekly shop. cheaper than more frequent billing options. Therefore, women are potentially particularly Many noble Lords raised the evidence base. As disadvantaged by these proposals. noble Lords know, we are conducting qualitative and A lot of work has gone into producing real-time quantitative research with claimants on many issues data from HMRC. That is at the heart of delivering but particularly on the payment frequency issue. As the universal credit project. Obviously, that is predicated some noble Lords have pointed out, on 7 October we on the formula of monthly payments. As a practical published a report, Perceptions of welfare reform and matter, how difficult would it be either to flex on to Universal Credit. This outlines findings from research fortnightly payments or for people to have a choice? I we conducted with claimants, the public, employers am surprised by those who argue against choice. We and staff in December 2010 and January 2011. There all accept the benefits of simplicity, for the reasons were critical findings in that piece of research that we that we have debated and will continue to debate. are looking at with great attention. However, a balance must be struck. Simplicity can I understand that many people on low incomes will shut out fairness in a range of circumstances. That is be used to managing the fortnightly payment of benefits, perhaps the dilemma that the Minister faces today. and I am determined to ensure that there will be I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, who appropriate budgeting support to meet the needs of said that it would be a pity if we got this wrong and in claimants. We want families to be able to manage their doing so undermined the prize of the universal credit, financial affairs in a manner that best reflects the and I very much agree with that. I hope that the demands of modern life, whether they are in work or Minister will listen to all those who have spoken. The out of work, and we are working with stakeholders noble Earl, Lord Listowel, spoke about his particular and benefit experts to that end. We are setting up a experience of dealing with poor and disadvantaged, series of demonstrator projects, as they are called, chaotic families, as did the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, with housing associations and local authorities to and my noble friend Lady Sherlock. What would look at how to structure the payment of rents to happen if one partner spent unwisely in that relationship? landlords. These demonstrator projects will look at a What would be the outcome, particularly for children? wide range of budgeting support. We need to make I hope that the Minister has heard a powerful message sure that budgeting advice and support is available for today and that it will genuinely influence him in looking those who need it in order to help them manage the at this again. If we want universal credit to work, this change. could be the key stumbling block. We also need to consider those exceptional circumstances where more frequent payments will be Lord Freud: My Lords, I start by congratulating the required. To pick up the point made by the noble noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on her first amendment, Baroness, Lady Campbell, people with mental health and I hope that she does not have too many like it. I problems are an example of a group that may need an was very impressed when she said that she was a exceptional service. To pick up the point made by the conservative, which was obviously supported because noble Earl, Lord Listowel, where there is proven abuse my noble friend Lord Kirkwood called her his noble or risk to other members of the family, one would friend. Clearly we have some cross-dressing going on. have to look at the payment arrangements. GC 441 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 442

[LORD FREUD] that; how we do this will shape the norm, so it is not If you separate assessment from payment, the monthly just a question of saying, “This is what everyone does. assessment is intended to reduce the burden on claimants We must adapt to it”. There is an element of saying, and reduce the risk of overpayments compared with a “If we do it like this, we will shape the way people system where benefits are reassessed on a weekly basis, arrange their lives”. so there is a separation between the assessment period and the payment period. To pick up a question from Lord McAvoy: The system has a degree of my noble friend Lord Kirkwood on the impact flexibility if you alter the way benefits are paid. For assessment— instance, when it is a holiday Monday, the whole thing seems to change and payments can be altered then. Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, the Minister suggested that payments for those with mental Lord Freud: My Lords, in the spirit of developing a health problems, for example, could be looked at. system together, which we seem to have moved into, Could he address how that might stigmatise a certain we can look at a greater amount of flexibility. Some group; that is, when not everyone can choose to be things are not that expensive to do, but others are. paid fortnightly, just those with mental health problems? Payment systems are not necessarily hugely difficult. I do not have my computer gurus sitting around me 6.30 pm whispering how much things cost, but my feeling is Lord Freud: My Lords, I was coming to this issue. that there are areas of flexibility here which we are The universal credit is a rather differently structured going to explore in great detail in the next year or so in benefit system. We have talked in the past about much order to get this right. We can be flexible and make greater flexibility with earlier draw-downs and an changes if we feel that things are not right. automatic repayment system. We are looking at these I turn now to the series of questions raised by the kinds of structures. When I talk about budgeting noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on the relationship with support, I am not just talking about education, advisers housing benefit. I will try to deal with them one by and that kind of support, I am also talking about a one. The universal credit will be an itemised statement. degree of flexibility in the system that simply does not It is being developed and at the moment comprises and cannot exist now. I do not think there would be three layers. You will see the summary on the top any stigmatisation at all in how people use this system. sheet, so to speak, and a somewhat more elaborated We have not worked out all the detail of this, and thing when you hit the button for the next level, and noble Lords have given me personally quite a bit of then you see pages of the stuff at the third level, which food for thought. How we develop these regulations we do not think a lot of people will go to. However, we and get them right so that we do not run into the kind give them the option to do that. The statement is of problems which noble Lords have so powerfully simple; it itemises the intention. The structure that we raised today is something that we will look at very have arrived at has been the subject of a lot of toing closely. On the stigmatisation point, my intention would and froing with the customer insight people. A couple be that it would be invisible, and within the universal of weeks ago I sat on one side of a piece of glass credit system, it can be invisible. watching how people were using the system. That is Let me revert to the question put by my noble where we have ended up in that particular bit. friend Lord Kirkwood about the impact assessment. I I was asked whether this process be slowed down to have to tell him that payment frequency is not one of the rate of the slowest element. Where you have some the issues in the impact assessment. It was referred to decided elements, the JSA rate and so on, we should in the equality impact assessment where we said we be able to get that going straight away without tying it were carefully considering the claimant welfare up. We will be able to separate out elements with new implications of the options, so that is where it is. claims involving big new changes rather than the whole claim waiting for the last little bit of evidence Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope: May I clarify the point on, say, housing to come through. We are looking at for the avoidance of doubt? Is there a technical issue tackling this matter much more flexibly. about frequency of payments? I understand and am listening carefully to what he is saying about assessment periods versus payment periods. Are his new computers Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I am very grateful for going to be agile enough to pay fortnightly rather than the care and attention that the Minister has given to monthly? the questions. However, oddly enough, if you can fragment that way, you can certainly fragment in terms of payment rhythms. Lord Freud: I think the noble Lord, with his normal subtlety in his amendment, has made a distinction between bi-monthly and fortnightly. This is one of Lord Freud: My Lords, I thought I had delicately those issues, to be honest, where if you start delving hinted that there could be some flexibility around that. into it, you will end up with daily rates because of the In future, I will be less delicate in making my points. arbitrariness of both weeks and months. It is not a We have discussed the other elements. The noble straightforward thing to do. Clearly, at one level all the Baroness, Lady Hollis, directed a bit of abuse at the utility systems are driven on a monthly basis, while Warrington call centre. We are developing the system other areas are driven on a weekly basis. With this in Warrington, but that does not mean that the call system, we are one of the drivers of the way people centre in Warrington will do it all. We will have a much behave and of social change. We should not forget more sophisticated system. Indeed, the noble Baroness’s GC 443 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 444 thoughts on using ATLAS, and the experience of be on its knees anyway because of cuts, the effects of housing benefit staff around the country in that regard, the legal aid Bill and so forth? I am not at all reassured are very good. We are talking to local authorities to by vague talk about flexibility and budgeting support. get the detail of this right. It would not make sense to The Minister said that the Government would look lose the expertise of housing benefit staff, so we are at areas of flexibility after the next year or so. I am involving them as we develop the process. It is too sorry, but I want to know what the position is by the early to describe the system because it is not yet Report stage. While I have made clear that I realise it is developed. However, the noble Baroness’s advice chimes not appropriate to write into the Bill itself the frequency with the way we are going about this, and we are of payments, given the strength of feeling that has grateful for it. been expressed on all sides, it is not good enough that Amendment 28 would require the Secretary of State we should have to wait a year; the Bill will be an Act to conduct an annual review into the impact on claimants by then. We want to know before the Bill goes back to of monthly payments. I have already set out our firm the other place what is going to be done to ensure that commitment to safeguards, such as providing budgeting the kind of problems that I and other noble Lords support and the facility to make more frequent payments have raised will be adequately addressed. One of these where necessary or appropriate. I can assure noble amendments must be the way to do it. Lords that in addition to this we will continue to monitor the impact of these policies after they are Lord Newton of Braintree: I apologise for intervening: introduced. I urge noble Lords not to press these I probably should not, as I was not here earlier. amendments. However, if the House authorities schedule at the same time on one day on the Floor of the House and Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, I am very in this Committee three Bills in all of which I have an grateful to my noble friends and noble Lords for their interest, it presents a difficulty. The Minister should support. I am struck by the extent to which noble know that had I been here, I would have been rebellious. Lords throughout the Committee share my concerns I endorse in particular the noble Baroness’s point and have made important points in support of these about needing to know, not at some vague time in the amendments. There is perhaps a slight disagreement future but before the Report stage, what the Government over whether we should be pushing for fortnightly have in mind. Perhaps I might also say to the noble payments or for choice. My preference would be for Baroness—craving the indulgence of the Committee—that fortnightly payments, as argued for by the noble Lord, I thought the Minister went as far as Ministers can go Lord Skelmersdale. However, I tabled a menu of under these circumstances towards saying that he would amendments thinking that choice would probably be think again, and that this is not the last word. I think more acceptable to the department than what I prefer, that she should be pleased with that. which is the status quo. Perhaps that is the one way in which I am a conservative. But as I have argued, and 6.45 pm according to the Financial Times, the panoply of flexibility Baroness Lister of Burtersett: I am very grateful to and special assistance which the Minister talked about the noble Lord, who perhaps I could call a noble will bring in complexity if we go down the route of friend from the past. Being new to this House, I monthly payments, and we have not heard what the perhaps do not understand the nuances of ministerial costs will be. I am very disappointed with the speech as well as some of my noble friends. I hope that Minister’s response because he has not really engaged the noble Lord, Lord Newton, is correct, but it does with the arguments that I put. Therefore, my supposed not change the point that people outside who are flirtation with conservatism has been very short-lived watching our proceedings also do not understand indeed. these nuances, so we need to have something much The Minister made great play of the distinction firmer before Report if we are to accept the Minister’s between the assessment period and the payment period, assurances. That said, I will withdraw the amendment. and I understand that. However, the argument seems to support my position rather than his because paying Amendment 25 withdrawn. a benefit more frequently does not affect proposals to assess it on a monthly basis. One could have a monthly Amendments 26 to 28 not moved. payment that is paid in two tranches, which would make it easier for people to manage. The only hope Clause 7 agreed. that I got from the Minister was the statement that we had given him food for thought. I hope that it will not be too indigestible for him—actually, I hope that it Lord De Mauley: My Lords, this might be an will be indigestible, because he will then think seriously appropriate moment to have a 10-minute comfort about it. break. He has not answered some of the most basic questions. I know that the special assistance will not only be The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Haskel): budgeting advice. The papers have said that it will “include” budgeting advice. However, it is still not The Committee stands adjourned for 10 minutes. clear who is going to provide this. Will it be officials? If I were a claimant, I am not sure that I would want 6.45 pm officials advising me on how to budget. Or will it be the poor old voluntary sector/big society, which will Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. GC 445 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 446

6.56 pm 7pm Under universal credit, if the ESA is not treated as Clause 8 : Calculation of awards earnings, they would have just £65 a week out of which they would still have to pay the mortgage. However, if ESA is treated as earnings, a single person Amendment 29 with no disregard would keep an extra £23 in addition to the ESA, which would at least give them £88, and if Moved by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town they qualified for a disability disregard, they would get 29: Clause 8, page 4, line 12, at end insert— a total of £130. It is an important difference, not least “( ) an amount in respect of prescribed unearned income because people who suddenly have to stop work because calculated as in paragraph (a),” of a stroke, accident or serious illness such as cancer face a sudden and rather dramatic drop in their earnings. Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, depending At the moment the money they get from tax credits on how the Minister responds, Amendment 29 is, I for the first six months helps enormously in the adjustment hope, a probing amendment. It deals with the treatment to a drop in their income at the same time as they of income in universal credit. As drafted, paragraph often have an increase in their outgoings. Despite that, (a) of subsection (3) deals with earned income, while even at the moment many are pulled into debt just paragraph (b) deals with unearned income. Amendment when they are also trying to deal with the onset of an 29 would insert a new category of income; that is, illness. Indeed, Citizens Advice found that illness is unearned income which is to be treated as earned a very significant cause of debt in a quarter of the income. It seeks to replicate existing provisions within clients they advise on debt issues, with about one in 10 tax credit legislation whereby certain types of unearned clients attending a county court hearing for a possession income are treated in the same way as wages, including because of mortgage arrears reporting that illness was sick pay and maternity pay. We welcome the a major factor in falling into those arrears. We know DWP briefing note on universal credit, which states that not just the loss of income with a serious illness that: but all the extra travel to hospitals and taxis and all that goes with it can increase outgoings at that time, so “The powers in the Bill permit us to make regulations to treat unearned income in the same way as earnings. These powers may it could be much worse under universal credit should be used, for example, in the case of Statutory Sick Pay”— ESA not be treated the same way as statutory sick pay. I have emphasised the word “may”—I hope that it is The second group about whom we are seeking more of a “shall” than a “may”. However, perhaps we information from the Minister under this first amendment could have some clarification on that. Statutory payments is mothers who will be receiving maternity allowance such as statutory sick pay and statutory maternity pay rather than statutory maternity pay. These are mostly are paid through wages and it would therefore be women who have been working right up to when they difficult not to treat them as earnings. We welcome go on to maternity leave but because they changed that indication, but again, some clarification of the jobs about the time they became pregnant, they will be word “may” would be a nice assurance. receiving maternity allowance rather than statutory maternity pay. At present they are eligible for working However, although there is no policy reason why tax credit. Again, perhaps the Minister could clarify those who receive maternity allowance or ESA during that maternity allowance will similarly be treated as the first six months of illness should be treated differently, earned income within universal credit. we seek an assurance from the Minister that these benefits will be treated in the same way; that is, as The difference in monetary amounts is significant. earnings. By way of example, the Minister will know At the moment a lone person on maternity leave with what I am referring to when I speak of two groups of one child who had been working at least 30 hours a people who get ESA in the first six months of sick week would get £125 maternity allowance, £20 child leave rather than SSP. These two groups are those who benefit and £55 child tax credit, as well as up to have been working until they become ill, but are likely £88 working tax credit. Even after paying rent of to receive ESA rather than SSP. One group is the about £70, she would have about £218 left. However, self-employed, who will have to claim ESA as they under universal credit, if maternity allowance is not to have no entitlement to SSP, and the second group is be treated as earnings, she would have a personal that of people who work for a small employer and allowance of £190 from which her maternity allowance become so ill or disabled that it is clear they will be would be subtracted pound for pound, so she would unable to return to their current job. People in this be left with about £140 after rent, which of course is group often give in their notice because they feel it is below the poverty line. unfair that their employer is unable to replace them However—I hope that we get this assurance—if while they are claiming SSP. In monetary terms the maternity allowance is treated as earnings, the first difference is fairly obvious. For example, in the case of £40 of her maternity allowance would be disregarded a home owner during the first three months of sickness, and she would keep £30 of the rest, leaving her £70 under the current scheme they get in addition to their better off than in my earlier calculation. It would ESA of £65 a week a payment of up to £52 working obviously be pretty unfair not to treat maternity allowance tax credit provided that they were working for at least as earnings. There is no policy justification for any 30 hours a week. That gives them a total of £117. They difference but clearly it is immensely important to would have to pay their mortgage out of this because women, particularly in the first year of their child’s they would not have help with the mortgage repayment. life. We are pleased that the DWP has indicated that GC 447 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 448 statutory payments may be treated as earnings—I earnings. As drafted, Clause 8 allows for a reduction hope they will be treated as earnings—but we would in respect of unearned income to be calculated “in the like some reassurance that when the person is getting prescribed manner”. The Bill therefore already allows maternity allowance or ESA instead these will similarly for the manner of such reductions to be specified in be treated as earnings. regulations. This could include, where appropriate, the Amendment 30 in the same group requests that the same calculation as for earnings. Secretary of State conducts, As we set out in the White Paper, claimants will “a review into the impact of a taper rate on claimants and work have their universal credit withdrawn according to a incentives”, single taper rate after appropriate disregards. The to conclude after one year and to be published. The latest assumptions on the earnings disregard have taper is a key element of the new universal credit. One been set out in a new policy briefing note which was part of the whole edifice architecture is obviously published today. Further analysis is provided in an bringing in-work and out-of-work benefits together in updated version of the impact assessment for universal one system. But moving from a cliff edge to a taper is credit, which was published not very soon, but this also intrinsic to making work pay in that people can afternoon. keep a significant proportion of any increased earnings. That objective is shared by the Opposition. However, With regard to income other than earnings, we have everyone, not least the Minister, knows that the original today released a new policy briefing note which confirms taper as envisaged by the Centre for Social Justice in that statutory sick pay and statutory maternity, paternity its report on dynamic benefits was 55 per cent. and adoption pay will be treated as earnings. We do not intend to treat either ESA—or ESA equivalent—or The Bill does not set a taper rate but the White maternity allowance as earnings. They are not treated Paper, Universal Credit: welfare that works, suggests as earnings in the current system; they are benefits and that the taper rate will be 65 per cent, which is a big are treated as such. Nor do we propose to alter the difference from 55 per cent. The Government describe current treatment of maternity allowance in the benefits this as the most generous taper affordable at present. system, where it is taken into account in full. This is But the Minister will acknowledge that the 65 per cent because maternity allowance is one of a number of taper will leave some families worse off than now, with benefits which exist to replace income for people who work incentives less under universal credit than under are out of work. It therefore addresses the same need today’s system. It would take a more generous taper to as universal credit for mothers who cannot work because increase work incentives and to help tackle child poverty they are giving birth to their children. We do not by boosting household income. Save the Children has believe it is right for the Government to pay twice to shown that a lone parent with two children working meet the same need. full time would be £25 a week better off under a 55 per cent rather than a 65 per cent taper. The income briefing note also explains our wider Our request to the Government is twofold. First, approach. In general, where a claimant has income at they should clarify the intended taper rate. Secondly, their disposal to meet their living costs, such as spousal under this amendment, they should commit to reviewing maintenance or payouts from an occupational pension, the taper rate annually with the aim of moving to the these payments will be taken fully into account. However, recommended 55 per cent as soon as possible and we need to make exceptions to this general rule while allowed by HMT. We accept that at present the 55 per ensuring that the system is kept as simple as possible. cent would cost £2.8 billion. Will the Minister set out We will therefore disregard certain income types in full the conditions under which the Government would where they are paid due to additional costs or expenses move towards the other taper and indicate whether it that a claimant has. This would apply to additional is proposed to move incrementally towards it? payments due to being disabled, such as DLA or various local authority payments, or for looking after I recognise that the Government will want to review children, including child benefit and fostering allowances. the effect of the 65 per cent rate on incentivising work We will also disregard in full certain payments which and how it impacts on the behaviour of claimants. would be disproportionately costly to take into account. They would not want the whole edifice being created These will include the value of payments in kind or to be put in jeopardy by an ineffective rate. We therefore charitable payments. ask the Minister to commit to an annual review of the taper with a view to introducing the more generous I turn now to the proposed subsections in Amendment 30 rate of 55 per cent to ensure that work pays for all. In which would require the Secretary of State to carry out particular, we would ask that any such annual review and publish a review of the impact of a taper rate on pays particular attention to the needs and aspirations universal credit claimants and their work incentives of second earners, given that nearly a million will face one year after the Act comes into force. As the revised reduced incentives to work compared with the present impact assessment sets out, we expect the single taper system. Furthermore, it would be useful if the Minister together with the earnings disregards to improve work would set out the economic and financial conditions incentives significantly.With regard to the participation required to achieve a 55 per cent taper. I beg to move. tax rate, the number of households who lose between 70 per cent and all their earnings through taxation and Lord Freud: My Lords, Amendment 29 specifies benefit withdrawal on moving into 10 hours of work that deductions from the claimant’s maximum amount will fall by 1.2 million under universal credit. Under of universal credit should include an amount in respect the current system, around half a million individuals of prescribed types of unearned income calculated in in low-paid work would lose more than 80 per cent of the same way as the deductions made in respect of an increase in their earnings because of higher tax or GC 449 Welfare Reform Bill[LORDS] Welfare Reform Bill GC 450

[LORD FREUD] Lord Freud: I can absolutely confirm that the figures withdrawn benefits. Virtually no households would included take-up and are the same figures, so there is lose 80 per cent under universal credit. On reasonable no change there. assumptions, the combined impact of take-up and entitlements will lift around 900,000 individuals out of poverty, including more than 350,000 children and Baroness Sherlock: I am so sorry. What was the 550,000 working-age adults. previous figure, not including take-up modelling? These are significant outcomes and we will be monitoring and evaluating universal credit to confirm Lord Freud: They are exactly the same—200,000 that they are achieved. However, this is an ongoing and 400,000 adults. Those figures have not changed. process and we expect that it will take longer than a Let me come back to the issue raised by the noble year to develop a sufficient body of evidence on which Baroness, Lady Hayter, on the target rate of the taper. to draw firm conclusions. As a result, we do not think I do not think it is right to have a target rate of what it appropriate— the optimum figure is, and I will not talk about the iron triangle today. I will spare the Committee. A lot of factors are involved in what the optimum rate will Baroness Sherlock: I thank the Minister. I am trying be. We do not know, so it would be foolish to set a to look through the revised impact assessment, as I am target, whether it is 55 or 65 per cent. If noble Lords sure will other noble Lords. I hope he has had the want my opinion, I think 65 per cent is too high and a opportunity to read it before I have; I would be very future Government—when they have some money— disappointed if he had not. I wonder, therefore, if he would be smart to lower it. But by then I would hope would give us the benefit of that experience. Regarding that we would know exactly what the optimum figures the figure he has just cited of 200,000 children being were. When we know that, a smart Government would lifted out of poverty by entitlement alone—and I see move to it. It would be wrong to set a target when we he has had to resort to modelling take-up which he has do not know what the optimum figure is. I agree that always previously refused to do on the grounds that it we need to be very sophisticated in our understanding was not necessary—could he remind us what the previous of how people behave and the impacts of universal estimate was of the number of children being lifted credit. I take on board the spirit of this amendment in out of poverty? the sense that we do need to assess it. I do not think this is the right way and I hope to be able to discuss Lord Freud: Yes, I can help noble Lords. There is a with this Committee better ways of assessing it. I am small decline for adults in this impact assessment hoping for some real enthusiasm behind those ways as compared with the last one. It is down from 600,000 to well. 550,000. However, the figure for children is unchanged I hope that these answers have helped to clarify our at 350,000. intentions in these areas. They are really important areas, and I urge noble Lords to withdraw their Baroness Sherlock: Is it unchanged? amendments. 7.15 pm Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, my noble friend will Lord Freud: Yes, for children lifted out of poverty, no doubt remember that many years ago I was the the figure 350,000 is unchanged. I am sorry; I can only Minister for War Pensions in the days when war tell noble Lords what is in the document, which I pensions were looked after by the then Department of confirm that I did read over the weekend. Let me nail Personal Health and Social Security, and then Social down the reason why I do not want a formal annual Security, since when they have been transferred to the review process. I do not think that that is the right way MoD. Many local authorities provide a war pensioner’s to go when we have something as sophisticated as the discount on housing benefit. I wonder whether this universal credit, given the impact of the different will be added to his list of discounts, because he did delivery mechanisms, taper rates, disregards and not mention it. conditionality. I will be talking to the Committee quite soon about how we could assess the system most effectively. I accept assessment and regular assessment, Lord Freud: I did not mention it for a very good and I am looking for support from this Committee in reason. I am currently consulting across government that process. on how best to recognise war pensions and other payments to veterans, war widows and dependants. The reason this is not straightforward is because the Baroness Sherlock: I thank the Minister. I wanted practice across all the different benefits varies wildly. to phrase my question more precisely because I think I When you create one single clean system, you have to may have confused him. The improvised impact go nap on one approach. What I am looking at doing assessment says on page 18 that changes in modelled is getting the right approach which recognises that entitlements will lift approximately 200,000 children someone in receipt of a war pension is owed an extra out of poverty. The figure of 350,000 children that he reward for that experience. We have to work out the quoted included take-up modelling. My understanding optimum way of doing that. As I say, I am consulting is that previously he has given us figures that did not on that. include take-up modelling. I am trying to contrast the current steady state figure without any assumed change in take-up compared to the previous steady state figure. Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I am very grateful. GC 451 Welfare Reform Bill[10 OCTOBER 2011] Welfare Reform Bill GC 452

Lord Newton of Braintree: Before my noble friend available, especially as we are trying to discuss the Bill sits down, since this seems to be the time for Tory without a wonderful array of staff to help us. interventions, and his remarks just now seemed to lead I also regret the remarks about ESA, maternity straight into this one, if variation between local authorities allowance and earnings. The women who will be getting in what they do in respect of Armed Forces pensions is this who have been in work may simply not qualify for a problem in the way that he described, although we a statutory payment because they have changed employers. are all no doubt very supportive, what will happen if However, they could well have been working full time we have 400 different council tax rebate social security before that. In that sense it is not a benefit but something systems all varying wildly between 400 local authorities? that they earned and are entitled to. Therefore, to treat I have a lot of sympathy with his line of argument. He it as unearned income—as if a sugar daddy had given may even be sad to know—I hope that he will be it to them—would not be the right approach. It has pleased to know this—that I think he is right to resist been earned, albeit in a different way. these amendments. He is right to put the emphasis on Similarly, the Minister did not respond to the question assessing what happens once all this is in place. However, of whether ESA affected the self-employed. They are we will need to take into account the effect of what is another group of people who have paid contributions happening as regards council tax benefit as well as all into a system. If they then discover that what they get the other things. when they are possibly very seriously ill with cancer is seen not as something that they have earned but Lord Freud: My Lords, I will just have to take that something from a very kindly Government, that will point on board. After our previous session, I know not be the right way to ensure that people see the that— system as enabling them to get something for what they have put in, which is what many of us want. I am Lord Newton of Braintree: It is all right; I am not sorry about that and I hope that, even if the Minister going to say any more. does not respond orally now, he will think about those groups of people, and in particular about women whose circumstances may have changed and who may Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I think that “um” have moved to a better job. On the whole it is young would be a very good response from the Minister. women who get pregnant. They may be moving up in a career and may have moved to a different employer Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: Some of my and therefore may not qualify. comments will not be appreciated but I thank the I have two further brief points. We are obviously Minister for his response. Clearly, I have not received delighted about any monitoring and assessment. If the same response as did my noble friend Lady Lister. there is to be no formal review, I will have to accept I will take it back and think about it. She does not that that is the best way of doing it. Nevertheless, it know when she is ahead. However, I am afraid that I would be very nice if the Minister or his successor will have to express some regret. A lot of us have done a lot bring those reports to the House, where they can be of work in preparing for the Bill although I am sure debated in the same way as we are able to now. that we have done much less than the Minister. I blame Finally, I accept that the Minister may not want to my noble friend Lady Sherlock in that when I asked set a target rate for a taper. He said that perhaps 65 per her what I should do she advised me to read everything cent was too high but that a future Government could that was said in the Commons. I thank her for that. perhaps do something about it. I look forward to What I found again and again were promises from sitting next to my noble friend Lord McKenzie when Ministers in the other House that by the time the Bill he is the Minister in a future Government— reached Committee stage there the relevant information would be available. Again and again I am afraid I read Lord McKenzie of Luton: Do not wish that on me. that our friends in the other place found that that was not the case. They nevertheless were given absolute assurances that the relevant information would be Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: —and can announce available before the Bill reached Committee stage in a different taper rate. With those comments, I beg this place. To have something published today concerning leave to withdraw the amendment. a debate that is taking place today is simply not good Amendment 29 withdrawn. enough. We cannot work that way; “before” ought to mean before. Anything that is relevant to what we are Amendment 30 not moved. talking about should be with us in time to enable us to read it and think about it. Lord De Mauley: I suggest that this would be a I welcome the remarks about our being involved in convenient moment to adjourn the Committee until the debates about how this process is going to work. I Thursday at 2 pm. think that those remarks were probably genuine. However, that means that we have to have the relevant information Committee adjourned at 7.26 pm.

WS 79 Written Statements[10 OCTOBER 2011] Written Statements WS 80

and West Freugh. As a result of the changes the Written Statements postcodes that are currently linked to the withdrawn stations will be reassigned to different weather stations. Monday 10 October 2011 The four new weather stations are: Aboyne; Boundary Commission for Wales Auchincruive; Statement Bainbridge; and Threave. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord The new stations have been chosen to maintain McNally): My honourable friend the Minister for weather-station-to-postcode links that are at least as Political and Constitutional Reform (Mark Harper) representative as the current arrangement. has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. I have written to each Member who made On 4 October 2011 Mr Paul Loveluck CBE and representations about the administration of the scheme Professor Robert McNabb were appointed as members last winter to make them aware of the advice from the of the Boundary Commission for Wales (BCW), following Meteorological Office. the resignation of two former members of that Cold weather payments are separate from, and in commission earlier this year. addition to, winter fuel payments. Mr Loveluck’s career has included spells as president The amendments resulted from the department’s of the National Museum and Libraries of Wales, annual review of the cold weather payments scheme. CEO of the Wales Tourist Board, and CEO of the The review drew on expert advice from the Meteorological Countryside Council for Wales. Professor McNabb is Office and took account of representations from benefit professor of economics at Cardiff University, a fellow claimants and Members of Parliament. of the Higher Education Authority and Learned Society For winter 2011-12 the cold weather payment rate of Wales, and a former dean of Cardiff Business will continue to be £25 for each seven-day period of School. very cold weather. The appointments are for five years and made following a fair and open public appointments process competition, in accordance with the code of practice Death Penalty published by the Commissioner for Public Appointments. Statement Ministers made the appointments in line with the recommendations of a panel which comprised a Cabinet Office official, the deputy chair of the BCW (Mr Justice The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Lloyd Jones) and an independent assessor approved Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My honourable by the Office of the Commissioner for Public friend the Minister of State (Jeremy Browne) has Appointments. made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Boundary Commission for Wales has stated I wish to make the House aware of the 2011 update that it will publish its initial proposals for the 2013 to HMG’s strategy on global abolition of the death review of parliamentary constituencies in January 2012 penalty and provide an update on progress which the and that it expects to complete the 2013 review within Government have made against the strategy since it the deadline stipulated by Parliament. The Government was publicly launched on 11 October 2010. made the replacement appointments as quickly as Promoting human rights and democracy is a priority possible and will continue to take the necessary steps for the UK Government. It is the long-standing policy to ensure there is no risk to this deadline. of the UK to oppose the death penalty in all circumstances as a matter of principle. We believe that its use undermines human dignity; that there is no conclusive evidence of Cold Weather Payments its deterrent value; and that any miscarriage of justice Statement leading to its imposition is irreversible and irreparable. Since the publication of the strategy for abolition of the death penalty, the Government have raised the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, death penalty bilaterally with a number of our priority Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My countries at both official and ministerial level in Asia, honourable friend the Minister of State, Department Africa, the Middle East, the USA, Europe and the for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb), has made the Caribbean. following Written Ministerial Statement. We have had some success through our project I am pleased to announce that regulations to amend work. The British high commission in Uganda is the cold weather payment scheme will be laid later currently supporting a project which aims to provide today. The changes will come into force on 1 November access to justice for those who have been on death row this year, in time for the beginning of the winter for over three years, and through this we have funded period. work by an organisation which has applied to the Following advice from the Meteorological Office courts for those on death row to have their sentences the amendments will introduce four new weather stations commuted to life imprisonment. The FCO is also to the scheme for winter 2011-12 and withdraw the currently funding a project in the Middle East and current stations at Dundrennan, St Catherine’s Point north Africa region covering Tunisia, Morocco and WS 81 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 82

Jordan, funding workshops which have provided others Defence: Single Source Pricing with the tools to advocate for abolition. This project Regulations has also led to the publication of a book that shows the death penalty is not implicit in Sharia law. Through Statement the funding of projects in Commonwealth Caribbean and Commonwealth African countries, we have worked The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry to achieve further restrictions on the use of the death of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My honourable penalty—for example, in June the mandatory death friend the Minister for Defence Equipment Support penalty for felony murder was ruled unconstitutional and Technology (Peter Luff) has made the following in Trinidad and Tobago as a result of one of these Written Ministerial Statement. projects. In July the FCO funded a regional workshop On 26 January 2011 (Official Report, col. 11WS) I in the Caribbean, providing training to 70 mental announced that Lord Currie of Marylebone would health professionals from across the Caribbean, which chair an independent review of the regulations used by should lead to improved mental health assessments for the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in single source, non- those facing the death penalty in the region. In Kenya competitive procurement, the so-called Yellow Book. we supported a regional seminar on the abolition of Lord Currie has now submitted his independent report, the death penalty, which took place in April, and we a copy of which has been placed in the Library of the are also currently supporting project work in Nigeria House. I would like to thank Lord Currie and his team and China. for the report. The MoD and other interested parties will now consider his recommendations. Consular staff in London and at our overseas missions The Government welcome Lord Currie’s continue to work hard, in collaboration with the NGO recommendations. In broad terms his report focuses Reprieve and local lawyers, to make progress on the on achieving a more open relationship between MoD cases of British nationals facing the death penalty. For and defence industry, ensuring standardised high-quality each case, we have agreed with the key stakeholders cost data are provided by contractors to the MoD. our handling strategy, to ensure that our representations This will help ensure greater transparency of costs and are targeted and appropriate. In recent months we should improve the MoD’s ability to negotiate realistic have made ministerial and head of mission representations prices. Industry will be incentivised to deliver efficiency on cases in the US, Ghana, Democratic Republic of by the opportunity to make greater returns should Congo, Indonesia, Malaysia and Pakistan. they deliver cost savings for the MoD. Making industry more efficient should not only achieve value for money We have also worked with the EU to create an to the taxpayer, but also lead to a more competitive international voice for abolition. We have raised the role for the UK defence industry in the export market. death penalty with a number of countries, through Small and medium enterprises (SMEs) will be offered statements, dialogues and project work. We have also fewer data reporting requirements and a simplified raised many cases of third-country nationals who are profit-rate process. Larger contractors will provide an facing the death penalty. annual statement on how they have engaged SMEs in their supply chain. Lord Currie recommends these arrangements are In November 2010 the UN General Assembly overseen by an independent single source regulations resolution on the moratorium on the use of the death office (SSRO) which would replace the existing review penalty was adopted with record support. As part of board to provide stronger oversight over both MoD an EU campaign, the UK lobbied several states to and industry. vote in favour of the resolution or at least move from voting against to abstention. We have also made The department will now consider the report’s recommendations to several countries on the death recommendations as part of the next stage of consultation, penalty through the universal periodic review process which will run until 6 January 2012. Responses to all since October 2010. aspects of the report are welcome, but the Government particularly seek views on the merits of the establishment of the SSRO or possible alternatives such as the We have welcomed a number of other positive strengthening of the existing cost assurance and analysis developments over the past year. Illinois became the service. A final report will then be produced which we 16th US state to abolish the death penalty in March, intend to publish in early 2012, when I shall report and in China we welcomed the return of the power of back to the House. final review to the Supreme People’s Court and the reduction of the number of crimes eligible for the death penalty from 68 to 55 in February.The international Department for Communities and Local momentum towards abolition continues to grow and Government the Government will continue to work to make progress Statement against their strategy in order to achieve their ultimate objective of global abolition of the death penalty. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My right honourable A copy of the updated strategy to 2015 will be friend the Secretary of State for Communities and placed in the Library of the House and published on Local Government (Eric Pickles) has made the following the FCO website (www.fco.gov.uk) on 10 October. Written Ministerial Statement. WS 83 Written Statements[10 OCTOBER 2011] Written Statements WS 84

I would like to update honourable Members on the details of the scheme for 2012-13, including providing main items of business undertaken by my department an indicative breakdown of estimated grants to help since the House rose for Conference Recess on local authorities with their budget planning. 15 September. Improving transparency and accountability Delivering better services Transparency is at the core of delivering efficient Under the last Administration, thanks to policies and accountable government. On 29 September, my engineered in Whitehall, millions of homes saw cuts to department published the final Code of Recommended their local rubbish collections. Weekly rubbish collections Practice for Local Authorities on Data Transparency. are the most visible of all front-line services and I The code of practice calls on local authorities such as believe every household in England has a basic right councils and fire and rescue services to shine a light on to have their rubbish collected every week. every part of their business, from employees’ salaries In June, the Government Review of Waste Policy in over £58,200 and details of all their contracts and England 2011 stated: “The Government will be working tenders to details of grants to voluntary organisations, with local councils to increase the frequency and quality spending data and the locations of public land and of rubbish collections and make it easier to recycle, building assets. and to tackle measures which encourage councils Subject to consultation, Ministers will consider making specifically to cut the scope of collections”. the code a legally binding requirement to ensure authorities On 30 September, my department announced a new are fully accountable to the people they serve. The fund of up to £250 million to support councils to coalition Government have abolished top-down inspection deliver weekly collections of household waste. The and increased local autonomy making local accountability new weekly collections support scheme will support more important than ever. Central government has a councils which switch from fortnightly to better weekly role in ensuring that local people can exercise their collections, and will support weekly collection councils right to know how their money is being spent and have which wish to keep and improve the weekly service the information they need to question that spending. they offer, such as through better procurement, new Decentralisation and a robust local democracy needs technologies and reward schemes like Recyclebank greater local accountability. and others. On 5 September, I informed the House that I had Councils will be able to bid individually or in asked the Audit Commission to outsource its audit consortiums, and with the private sector, where that work from next year, as the first step towards disbanding increases value for money. In order to encourage the the Commission and introducing a new, decentralised most innovative and locally tailored solutions, authorities audit regime which will allow local authorities to will be able to bid for a mix of revenue and capital appoint their own auditors. Following careful funding. consideration of the options, we determined that In due course, I will make a further Statement on outsourcing was likely to offer the best value for the detail of this scheme, and the details for inviting money for the taxpayer. In line with our commitment councils to submit innovative bids for funding. This to transparency, on 10 October my department published initiative will help councils deliver better weekly collections, on its website a summary of the independent report and in the process make it easier for families to go we commissioned to inform our decision. green and improve local amenity and local environment. In September and October my department published It also builds on the abolition of bin taxes through the two further groups of reports presenting the findings Localism Bill and our plans to abolish unfair bin fines from research projects commissioned by the previous introduced under the last Administration. Administration. The reports and findings are of general Helping local families policy interest, but do not relate to forthcoming policy announcements. We are publishing these documents Under the last Administration, while bin collections in the interests of transparency. The first group was halved for many homes, across the country council tax published on 29 September and relates to immigration; more than doubled. In 2011-12, the coalition Government a summary of the reports and their cost to taxpayers introduced a council tax freeze, which was taken up by can be found online at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/ all participating councils. statements/corporate/legacyresearchimmigration1. On 3 October, my right honourable friend the The second group, published on 6 October relates Chancellor of the Exchequer announced £805 million to housing; a summary of the reports and their cost to support to help freeze council tax bills for a further taxpayers can be found online at: http://www.communities year. The support for local authorities, on top of the .gov.uk/statements/newsroom/legacyresearchhousing. existing freeze, means that taxpayers living in an average band D home in England could save up to £72 compared Ensuring fairness for council workers and taxpayers to a 5 per cent rise in council tax. In addition to The cost of local government pensions to the taxpayer providing real help to households in difficult times, has risen from £1.8 billion in 1997 to £6 billion in this provides a positive contribution to those local 2009-10 increasing burdens on council tax—and in authorities that wish to keep council tax down while turn, hitting pensioners the hardest. In light of changing protecting vital front-line services. demographics, this growing burden is not sustainable I will shortly make a Written Statement setting out or fair on the taxpayer. Moreover, Lord Hutton’s the provisions for English local authorities and my report sets out why public sector pensions need to be officials will then write to the authorities with full reformed to more fairly protect taxpayers. WS 85 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 86

On 7 October, my department published a consultation landholdings published their strategies that set out that proposes how to deliver the £900 million of savings how their formerly used land and property has the required by the spending review 2010 to the local capacity to deliver more than 50,000 desperately needed government pension scheme in England and Wales by new homes. 2014-15. Over the summer these departments have moved The paper proposes a progressively phased increase swiftly to identify land and property that could be in employees’ contribution tariff from April 2012 that released for new development. This builds on the would raise an additional £450 million, or 1.5 per cent 11,000 housing starts that will be achieved through the of pay, and a change in the accrual rate from April release of land owned by the Homes and Communities 2013 to raise an additional £450 million, or 1.5 per Agency. The amount of previously developed land cent of pay. This provides a balance between increasing owned by the public sector is more than twice the size employee contributions and adjusting the accrual rates of Leicester, and its development could support as while making the necessary savings to better protect many as 200,000 construction and related jobs. the taxpayer. At the same time, my right honourable friend the To ensure the scheme continues to be an attractive Minister for Housing and Local Government announced scheme to all existing and future members, any increases fresh steps to help communities across the country in contribution rate will protect low earners, with no reclaim and develop hundreds of acres of unused increase for those earning less than £15,000, and mean public sector land and buildings, which could be used high earners pay in proportionally more, reflecting to deliver the schemes communities want to see in their more generous pensions. their areas. Members of the public will now be able to We will continue to engage with local government request a sale of public land and buildings by filling in and trade unions throughout the consultation as they a simple and user-friendly form. It will replace a have a key role to play. We hope all parties will take the system that is so obscure and restrictive that it has time to consider these proposals in a constructive hardly ever been used, with only one successful application manner. in the past 13 years. The improved process for requesting the sale of Building a better Britain public land and property will be one way of applying We believe that creating the conditions for sustainable for land to be released by government departments, growth and thriving economies begins at a local level, and will also apply to land owned by councils and with local control and responsibility and local investment. other public bodies. On 3 October, the coalition Government invited the Promoting home ownership and affordable housing Lancashire and Hull and Humber local enterprise The Government also want to support people to partnerships to develop proposals for two new enterprise meet their aspirations of home ownership. Since 1980, zones. This is in response to the recent announcement nearly 2 million social homes have been bought by by BAE Systems on its sites in Brough, Warton and their occupants under right to buy, improving social Samlesbury. The zones will benefit from simplified mobility and building mixed communities. The right planning rules, super-fast broadband and tax breaks to buy gave something back to families who worked for new business for the next four years. The Government hard, paid their rent and played by the rules. It allowed will work closely with these local enterprise partnerships them to do up their home, change their front door, to develop strong and viable proposals for enterprise improve their garden—without getting permission from zones that will accelerate local growth, generate hundreds the council. It gave people a sense of pride and ownership of jobs and attract many new start-up firms. not just in their home, but in their street and On 10 October, my department published a neighbourhood. Yet under the last Administration, consultation on reforming the community infrastructure right-to-buy discounts were cut significantly. levy to provide that a proportion of the money raised On 2 October, the Prime Minister announced the from development will go directly to the neighbourhood intention to raise right-to-buy discounts to a level where it takes place. Local people will have the freedom which will make the scheme attractive to tenants across to spend this money to deal with the demands that England. The receipt from the right to buy will be used new development places on their community—for example to pay off the housing debt and build more housing by providing facilities such as parks, playgrounds and for affordable rent—for every home bought under community centres or new and improved transport. right to buy, a new affordable home will be built, over The levy will also continue to be used to contribute and above our existing plans. Further details of this to larger infrastructure projects across areas like new will be set out in the forthcoming housing strategy. roads, transport, or hospitals. Developers will benefit The reform of the housing revenue account system is from a system that ensures they know up-front how and remains a coalition priority and the timetable for much they will be expected to contribute towards the the reform remains unchanged. infrastructure needed to support new development, Tackling the 700,000 empty homes across the country and communities will benefit because they will be able is a top priority for my department. On 20 September, to decide for themselves how the demands placed on my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary their area are best addressed. of State for Communities and Local Government The Government are also moving ahead with plans announced more powers for community groups to to release disused public land and empty offices with bring empty homes back into use. Community and enough capacity to build up to 100,000 new homes by voluntary organisations will be able to bid for a part of 2015. On 5 October, four departments with significant £100 million of government funding for pioneering WS 87 Written Statements[10 OCTOBER 2011] Written Statements WS 88 housing schemes that will ensure empty properties are The second item on the agenda was a report from lived in again. This will also help to provide more the presidency on preparations for the tripartite social affordable housing. The coalition Government are summit, which will take place on 17 October 2011. already providing more incentives for councils to bring The council also adopted council conclusions on empty homes back into use, including them in the new the role of voluntary work in social policy and managing homes bonus. In one year of the new homes bonus just demographic changes. under 16,000 previously empty properties have been Under any other business, a debate on the EU aid brought back into use. for the needy scheme took place. France and Slovenia My department will also consult in due course on had circulated a joint paper asking Employment Ministers plans to allow councils local discretion to introduce a to lobby their agriculture counterparts to agree a council tax premium on homes in their area that have short-term continuation of the programme, which would been empty for more than two years, to provide a allow food to be sourced from the open market as well stronger incentive to get the homes back into productive as from increasingly limited intervention stocks, and use and remove the blight from such properties on to introduce an element of co-financing. The Commission local neighbourhoods. reiterated its support for the scheme and indicated The coalition Government will stand by and help that it would table a revised proposal with a dual families who work hard and play by the rules, while cohesion and agriculture legal base, reverting to tackling the small number of people who abuse the 100 per cent EU funding. A number of member states system. In this context, it has been estimated that there expressed support for the scheme and the Commission’s could be 6,000 households living in this taxpayer-funded efforts to find a solution. The UK, along with Germany, social housing with incomes greater than £100,000. the Netherlands and Sweden, stressed that measures This is not fair to the millions of people in genuine such as these should be delivered at national level. A housing need and those who work hard, earn a modest Europe-wide scheme raised competence issues and income, yet still remain on a housing waiting list. On was not as effective as national measures. The presidency 4 October, the Minister for Housing and Local noted the positions in council and would send a note Government indicated that he will be looking at on the discussions to the Agriculture Council. introducing a “pay to stay” scheme for social tenants The other items under any other business were on incomes greater than £100,000 who want to stay in reports on Polish presidency conferences and the EPSCO those properties. A consultation on this will be published informal which took place in July. The presidency also in due course. reported on preparations for the first annual convention I am placing in the Library copies of the press of the European platform against poverty and social notices and papers associated to this Statement. exclusion, which takes place in October. The French reported back on the G20 Labour and Employment Ministers’ meeting, which took place in Paris and the EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health Germans reported back on the meeting of an informal and Consumer Affairs Council Ministerial Group on Employment and Social Policy, Statement which took place in Potsdam.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Hong Kong: Sino-British Declaration for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My right honourable Statement friend the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling), has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Affairs Council met on 3 October 2011 in Luxembourg. Commonwealth Affairs (William Hague) has made Andy Lebrecht, UK deputy permanent representative the following Written Ministerial Statement. to the European Union, represented the UK. The latest report on the implementation of the The first item on the agenda was a policy debate on Sino-British joint declaration on Hong Kong was the future shape of the European Social Fund (ESF) published today. Copies have been laid in the Library and its role in the implementation of the Europe 2020 of the House. A copy of the report is also available on strategy. The Commission confirmed that it would the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website publish its draft regulation on the ESF in 2014-20 later (www.fco.gov.uk). The report covers the period from in the week. The presidency stressed that it was vital to 1 January to 30 June 2011. I commend the report to strengthen the role of the ESF in cohesion policy. the House. Member states agreed that the ESF should contribute in helping to achieve Europe 2020 targets and that the ESF should be more efficient and targeted at the most Immigration disadvantaged. For the UK, Andy Lebrecht intervened to stress the need to focus EU resources on the less Statement developed member states, to improve value for money, and that the ESF should add value to national investment The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): in employment and skills. The UK also raised concerns My honourable friend the Minister of State for about the effectiveness and added value of the European Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the globalisation fund. following Written Ministerial Statement. WS 89 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 90

The Government are today laying before the House A minor correction is being made to the rules laid a statement of changes in the Immigration Rules. The on 6 April to make provision for spouses and civil first change will allow the UK Border Agency to partners of a British citizen or settled person in the refuse entry or stay in the UK to those subject to United Kingdom in line with the policy intention immigration control with outstanding unpaid NHS relating to in-country switching. charges of £1,000 or more. This change will be phased in from 1 November. Minor changes are also being made to the Immigration On 18 March 2011, I announced the Government’s Rules relating to unmarried and same sex partners of response to the 2010 consultation on refusing entry or a British citizen or settled person in the United Kingdom stay to NHS debtors and signalled my intention to lay to enable in-country switching into this route, reflecting a new rules change in respect of outstanding NHS the policy intention. charges. This will deter overseas visitors from misusing the NHS and encourage overseas visitors to meet their The last change relates to the Olympic and Paralympic obligations to pay for the NHS services that they use. Games. The UK needs to effectively manage the entry The UK Border Agency will continue to work closely and stay of persons accredited for the 2012 Olympic with the Department of Health on a range of measures and Paralympic Games such as athletes, umpires, technical to prevent health tourism. staff and broadcasters and other individuals before, during and after the Games in order to deliver a safe I can also confirm that we are publishing the impact and secure Games. Such persons are referred to as assessment for the changes in respect of outstanding Games family members. NHS charges on the UK Border Agency website and I will arrange for a copy to be placed in the House In order to do this, and fulfil contractual agreements Library. reached with the International Olympic Committee A minor technical change to the evidential requirements (IOC) and the London Organising Committee of the for settlement is also being made which will oblige Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) it economic migrants to provide supporting documents is necessary to make two sets of changes to the UK’s to show they are earning a minimum amount before Immigration Rules. they are granted settlement. I am also making minor changes to Rule 317 on The first change amends appendix 1 to the Immigration parents, grandparents and other dependent relatives Rules by exempting certain holders of the Olympic to improve the drafting and transparency of the rule. identity and accreditation card (OIAC) and Paralympic Consequential changes will be made to Rule 319(v), identity and accreditation card (PIAC) from visa which deals with the dependent relatives of refugees requirements during the accreditation period of the and those with humanitarian protection. Games, which runs from 30 March 2012 to 8 November 2012, providing the card is presented with a valid We are also making some technical corrections to national passport or other document satisfactorily the rules for other dependent relatives of a refugee or establishing nationality and identity and providing the beneficiary of humanitarian protection. We are deleting requirements set out in the statement of changes to a provision in the rules that requires an applicant to be the Immigration Rules have been met. refused if he or she has one or more unspent convictions within the meaning of the Rehabilitation of Offenders The second change amends the visitor category of Act 1974 when they apply for entry clearance or the Immigration Rules by creating two new categories further leave to remain in this route. This provision of visitor—an Olympic or Paralympic Games family was included in error, as government policy is that member visitor and an Olympic or Paralympic games indefinite leave to remain (ILR) should be refused to family member child visitor. Leave in these two visitor people with unspent convictions, but not that an categories will only be available during the accreditation application for entry clearance or limited leave to period of the Games to Games family members who remain should be refused. We are also clarifying the meet the requirements of the Immigration Rules. existing rules to ensure that other family members Individuals granted leave to enter or remain as an who wish to switch into the further leave to remain or Olympic or Paralympic Games family member visitor settlement route in this category can do so. The and Olympic or Paralympic Games family member amendments will also affect the criteria for granting child visitor during the period of 30 March 2012 to settlement as we are clarifying the need for an applicant 8 May 2012 will be admitted for up to six months, to have valid leave to enter or remain in the United while those who are granted leave to enter or remain Kingdom so that those who have overstayed do not during the period of 9 May 2012 to 8 November 2012 qualify under the rules. will be admitted up until and including 8 November We are also making minor, technical changes to the 2012. In both cases conditions prohibiting recourse to Immigration Rules on students, including: public funds and restricting employment to employment to reflect that Education Scotland is the new name only related to Olympic and Paralympic Games will for Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Education; be attached to the leave. to amend the definition of UK-recognised body to These changes to the Immigration Rules will help confirm that this includes foundation programme the UK facilitate the entry and stay of Games family offices for postgraduate doctors and dentists; and members in the UK during the Games while also to clarify the definition of who benefits from the allowing the UK Border Agency to maintain a robust streamlined application process for tier 4. immigration control. WS 91 Written Statements[10 OCTOBER 2011] Written Statements WS 92

NHS: Choice and Control I will be making an announcement on new schools this afternoon via an Oral Statement in the House of Statement Commons. A list of new schools will be placed in the House Libraries to coincide with this Oral Statement. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health (Andrew Lansley) has Shipping: Towing Vessels made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Statement Today I am publishing the Liberating the NHS: Greater Choice and Control— Government Response: Choice of Named Consultant-led Team and associated The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace guidance. The response, the contract implementation of Tankerness): My right honourable friend the Secretary guidance and the impact assessment have been placed of State for Scotland (Michael Moore) has made the in the Library. Copies of the response are available following Ministerial Statement. to honourable Members from the Vote Office and to I am pleased to confirm to the House that the noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. Scotland Office is now leading efforts to secure a This is the response to the questions associated long-term replacement for the emergency towing vessels with the proposal to offer patients choice of named (ETV) service in waters surrounding the Northern consultant-led team in Liberating the NHS: Greater Isles and Western Isles. Choice and Control—A Consultation on Proposals. It has been agreed that interim funding will be The response to these questions is being published provided from the UK Government to support the now to help the NHS plan for the next financial year. service for up to three months while this work continues. A fuller response covering all of the remaining questions The contract will be managed by the Maritime and in the greater choice and control consultation document Coastguard Agency and every effort will be made to will follow later this year. ensure value for money for the public purse. This consultation sought views on the choice The Scotland Office, drawing on technical and commitments first set out in the White Paper, Equity operational advice from the Maritime and Coastguard and Excellence: Liberating the NHS (Cm 7881). The Agency and Scottish stakeholders from the UK ETV consultation period ran from 18 October 2010 until Working Group, will lead efforts to broker a long- 14 January 2011 and I am delighted to report that term replacement for the service. Timescales are hundreds of engagement activities were undertaken tight and this work will be progressed as a matter of and 617 unique responses were received. We have urgency. I will convene a meeting of a Scottish ETV heard from patients, service users, clinicians, care Working Group on Monday 17 October, comprising professionals, systems providers, voluntary sector representatives of Highlands and Islands local authorities, organisations and many others. All these contributions Marine Scotland, KIMO (Kommunenes Internasjonale have been analysed and have informed the ongoing Miljøorganisasjon) and other interested parties. An development of our policy direction reflected in today’s announcement will be made by the end of the year publication. notifying the House of the outcome of this work. A significant majority of respondents supported our proposed approach to implementing proposals to offer patients a choice of named consultant-led team Taxation at referral as set out in the consultation document. A range of issues were also raised around: the need for Statement good-quality information to support choice; the impacts on providers’ ability to manage capacity and waiting The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord times; and the development of specialist knowledge by Sassoon): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary consultant-led teams. to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today issued the The issues raised in the responses to choice of following Written Ministerial Statement. named consultant-led team have been taken into account On 6 October the Government signed an agreement in drafting the contractual guidance published alongside with the Swiss Confederation on co-operation on tax this response, and the accompanying impact assessment. matters. The agreement seeks to tackle tax evasion by UK residents through the use of Swiss financial services. Schools: New Schools It will clear up past tax liabilities through the imposition of a significant one-off levy, safeguard future revenues Statement through a new withholding tax on investment returns, and expand the powers of HM Revenue and Customs The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for to find out about Swiss assets. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): My right honourable The text of the agreement has been deposited in the friend the Secretary of State for Education (Michael Libraries of both Houses and is available on the HM Gove) made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Revenue and Customs website.

WA 217 Written Answers[10 OCTOBER 2011] Written Answers WA 218

2. The estimates are based on the current welfare system. Written Answers Reliance on income-related pension benefits and working age benefits is assumed to remain in line with current age-specific Monday 10 October 2011 rates of reliance. 3. The estimates are based on the increases to 66 and 67 occurring over a two-year period. Asked by Lord Boswell of Aynho Pensions Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their estimate of the savings likely to arise to public Asked by Lord Laird funds, as compared with the current pension timetable, from changing the state pension age (a) to 66 by To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to April 2026, or (b) equalising the state pension age the Written Answer by Lord Freud on 11 August for men and women at 65 by April 2020 and then (WA429), how many current employees are members raising the state pension age to 66 in April 2022 and of (a) the National Health Service pension scheme; 67 by April 2026. [HL11988] (b) the Armed Forces pension scheme; and (c) the Police pension scheme; and how many who are eligible to be members are not. [HL11606] Lord Freud: (a) Changing state pension age to 66 by April 2026 is the same as the legislated baseline so no The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, savings would be created. Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The (b) Raising state pension age to 66 by April 2022 Department for Work and Pensions does not have and to 67 by April 2026 would create estimated savings policy responsibility for public service pension schemes of £26.1 billion (in 2011-12 prices) between 2020-21 and therefore does not hold the employee membership and 2025-26 and £64.9 billion (in 2011-12 prices) information for these schemes. HM Treasury has overall between 2026-27 and 2035-36 compared to the current responsibility for public service pensions policy, but pension timetable. not for the administration and details of individual This timetable would result in savings of just £1.1 billion schemes: such data as requested may be held by the (in 2011-12 prices) between 2016-17 and 2020-21. This individual pension schemes. is significantly lower than the savings of £11.1 billion Asked by Lord Boswell of Aynho (in 2011-12 prices) during the same period resulting from the Pensions Bill 2011 timetable. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Notes: estimate of the savings likely to arise to public 1. The savings estimates presented in this reply are computed in funds from changing the state pension age for men line with the methodology used to prepare the estimates of DWP and women to 66 by April 2022 and either (a) 67 in AME savings published in the impact assessment presented with 2025, or (b) 67 in April 2026; as compared with the Pensions Bill 2011. They take into account lower spending on (1) the current timetable for pension age changes, pensioner benefits and higher spending on working age benefits and (2) that outlined under the timetable proposed and incorporate changes to long term assumptions following the in the Pensions Bill currently before Parliament. publication of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s July 2011 Fiscal Sustainability Report. [HL11987] 2. The estimates presented in the reply are based on the current welfare system. Reliance on income-related pension benefits and working age benefits is assumed to remain in line with current Lord Freud: The estimated saving from raising state age-specific rates of reliance. pension age to 66 by April 2022 and: 3. The estimates presented in the reply assume a baseline of the (a) to 67 by 2025 compared with: state pension age equalisation timetable as legislated by the Pensions Act 1995 and the increase to 66 and to 67 as legislated the current timetable for pension age is £96.2 billion; in the Pensions Act 2007. and 4. The estimates are based on the increases to 67 and 66 the timetable proposed in the Pensions Bill is occurring over a two-year period starting April 2020 and ending £64.5 billion. April 2022 and starting April 2024 and ending April 2026 respectively. (b) to 67 by 2026 compared with: the current timetable for pension age is £91.0 billion; and the timetable proposed in the Pensions Bill is £59.2 billion. South Sudan Notes: Question 1. The savings presented are computed in line with the Asked by The Earl of Sandwich methodology used to prepare the estimates of DWP AME savings published in the impact assessment presented with the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Pensions Bill 2011. They take into account lower spending on pensioner benefits and higher spending on working age benefits development assistance they gave directly to indigenous and incorporate changes to long term assumptions following the South Sudanese non-governmental organisations publication of the Office for Budget Responsibility’s July 2011 during 2009–10 and 2010–11; and for what activities. Fiscal Sustainability Report. [HL11963] WA 219 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 220

Baroness Northover: Her Majesty’s Government do Since the inception of round 2 small grants mechanism, not provide direct funding to South Sudanese non- 69 local organisations have received grants and have governmental organisations. However we do fund three been trained in project management and proposal programmes that use South Sudanese non-governmental writing (43 in agriculture, 16 in education and 10 in organisations to undertake peace-building activities or water and sanitation) funded by the UNDP.The grants to dispense delivery of basic services. The three have focused on grassroots or localised initiatives in programmes are: the South Sudan Basic Services Fund, agriculture, education and water and sanitation in all the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) 10 states in South Sudan. South Sudan Recovery Fund and the South Sudan Through the South Sudan Peace Fund approximately Peace Building Programme. 5,494 people have participated in peace building and conflict mitigation activities such as dialogues, civic The BSF has served 20 per cent of the national education courses and livelihoods support such as population (about 2 million people) through BSF three pilot projects which work with demobilised women funded primary health care clinics and 21 out of soldiers to assist their social reintegration in to host 31 targeted new schools have been built and 30,008 communities. students now enrolled. Over 670,000 people have benefited These programmes disbursed £6.3 million in 2009-10 from safe drinking water and improved sanitation and £6.0 million in 2010-11 to South Sudanese non- through BSF programmes. governmental organisations. Monday 10 October 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Boundary Commission for Wales ...... 79 Hong Kong: Sino-British Declaration ...... 88

Cold Weather Payments...... 79 Immigration...... 88

Death Penalty ...... 80 NHS: Choice and Control ...... 91 Defence: Single Source Pricing Regulations...... 82 Schools: New Schools...... 91 Department for Communities and Local Government ...... 82 Shipping: Towing Vessels ...... 92 EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 87 Taxation ...... 92

Monday 10 October 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Pensions...... 217 South Sudan ...... 218 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL11606]...... 217 [HL11987]...... 217

[HL11963]...... 218 [HL11988]...... 218 Volume 730 Monday No. 201 10 October 2011

CONTENTS

Monday 10 October 2011 Questions Media: Ownership...... 1315 Economy: Tourism...... 1317 Banking: Quantitative Easing ...... 1320 Death Penalty ...... 1322 Business of the House Motion on Standing Orders...... 1324 Live Music Bill [HL] Report...... 1324 Armed Forces Bill Third Reading ...... 1324 Localism Bill Report (5th Day)...... 1352 Grand Committee Welfare Reform Bill Committee (3rd Day) ...... GC 403 Written Statements...... WS 79 Written Answers...... WA 217