Parliamentary Debates (Hansard)

Wednesday Volume 542 14 March 2012 No. 279

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 14 March 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 239 14 MARCH 2012 240

Mr Mitchell: The hon. Lady rightly flags up the House of Commons plight of those who have been forced to leave their homes, and not only the refugees who have fled across Wednesday 14 March 2012 the border, but the internally displaced people. That is why some of our specific support goes to help 5,500 The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock people who are in Syria and who have been forced to leave their homes. PRAYERS Palestinian Territories

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] 2. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): What funding his Department has allocated to the Oral Answers to Questions Palestinian territories in 2011-12. [99629] The Secretary of State for International Development (Mr Andrew Mitchell): The UK has allocated funding INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT for Palestinian development to help build a future Palestinian state that is stable, prosperous and an effective partner for peace. The Secretary of State was asked— Syria Andrew Percy: I am sure the Secretary of State agrees that it is imperative that any funds provided by this 1. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): What country to the Palestinian Authority go towards securing support his Department is providing to assist with the the Quartet principles. Does he therefore share my humanitarian situation in Syria. [99628] concern that there are still Palestinian textbooks that contain anti-Christian, anti-western and anti-Israeli The Secretary of State for International Development sentiments? Can he assure me that his Department is (Mr Andrew Mitchell): We have given direct support to doing everything possible to ensure that no British 20,000 families for food rations, medical supplies and taxpayer money is being used to fund textbooks of that emergency water. We are today announcing additional sort? support for humanitarian aid. Mr Mitchell: I have looked very carefully into this Martin Horwood: The massacres unfolding at the issue, not least because I know of my hon. Friend’s hands of the murderous Assad regime are now being interest in it, and I have found no evidence in Palestinian compared to great humanitarian tragedies such as school textbooks of what he describes. I was in Gaza Srebrenica. Unhindered humanitarian access is desperately just before Christmas, and I raised the specific matter needed. Has the recent Valerie Amos mission on behalf then. I am sure my hon. Friend will share my pleasure in of the United Nations offered any hope whatever? the fact that the State Department in America has set up an inquiry to examine the quality of both Israeli and Mr Mitchell: Any hope from that mission is severely Palestinian textbooks and will be reporting later this limited. At the weekend I spoke to Baroness Amos, the year, probably in the autumn. He and I will, no doubt, head of the United Nations Office for the Co-ordination look with great interest at what the report has to say. of Humanitarian Affairs, and on Monday night I spoke to Jakob Kellenberger, the head of the International Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I Committee of the Red Cross. We continue to reflect the was in Gaza at the weekend, as it witnessed the biggest horror and indignation at what is happening in Syria—as escalation in Israeli air strikes and Palestinian rockets my hon. Friend expressed—and to demand unfettered for three years. Although we all hope that the current access for all humanitarian agencies. truce holds, does the Secretary of State agree that the 13. [99641]Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Will ongoing and daily madness of Israel’s blockade is illustrated the Government give a commitment that maximum by the fact that it incentivises a few to make millions pressure will be put on Russia in particular to ensure from a tunnel economy and benefits armed groups, that it plays a far more positive role in future? while legitimate Palestinian businesses cannot export, the UN cannot get the materials it needs to rebuild Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman is entirely right to shattered schools and hospitals, and the poor are forced identify Russia as the key blocker to international agreement to rely on food handouts? and to taking effective action on humanitarian relief, and more widely, in Syria. This subject is very dear to Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable the heart of the Foreign Secretary, and he has repeatedly point about the effects of this action in terms of the raised it in New York. Palestinian economy, but he will know that the Government’s position is clear: we urge both sides to Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): I desist from the actions he has described. welcome the Government’s efforts to secure humanitarian access to help the people of Syria, but what steps are Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Given that many being taken to protect the estimated 230,000 internal hundreds of missiles have been fired from Gaza into and external refugees fleeing the violence, especially in Israel—some armed with ball-bearings and causing light of reports that the Syrian regime is laying mines enormous hardship to many—will my right hon. Friend along the routes to the borders with Lebanon and use the levers of aid to put pressure on the Gaza Turkey? authorities and Hamas to stop firing them? 241 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 242

Mr Mitchell: I had an opportunity on a recent trip to Women’s Rights Israel to visit Sderot and see for myself the effects of what my hon. Friend is describing. British development policy on Palestine is very clear: we concentrate on state 4. Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): What proportion of building and strengthening financial management by his Department’s budget support was spent on projects public authorities; we support the private sector on promoting women’s rights and empowerment in the growth, reducing unemployment and eliminating poverty; last year for which figures are available. [99631] and we are working closely with the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and the World Food Programme The Minister of State, Department for International on issues of humanitarian relief. I will, however, take on Development (Mr Alan Duncan): In DFID, we put girls board the point he is making. and women at the heart of everything we do. DFID’s strategic vision for girls and women, launched last Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): March, sets out four priority areas for greater action in The last time I was in Gaza the thing I thought was all its 28 country programmes. It is not, however, possible most cruel was the denial to the Palestinians of their to calculate the precise proportion of our budget that is land—35% of their land—and of 85% of their fishing spent on that. rights. Does the Secretary of State agree that it would be so much better if people could produce food for Lyn Brown: I am grateful for that reply. Given President themselves and for the local economy, and were not Karzai’s support for the ulema council’s statement, reliant on food aid? which classified women as “secondary”, what Mr Mitchell: The right hon. Lady is entirely right to representations have the UK Government made to him say that it is much better to produce food in a sustainable on this issue? What projects are the Department developing way than to have to rely on food aid, and that is one of specifically to promote Afghan women’s social and the policies we are pursing vigorously around the world. political rights, and participation? However, as she will know, the answer is for both parties in this long, protracted and bitter dispute to negotiate Mr Duncan: Supporting girls and women is an integral with each other in good faith. That is the way in which part of the UK’s work in Afghanistan. We support we will reach a two-state solution. initiatives to increase girls’ education and access to finance, and to increase women’s participation in Democratic Republic of the Congo governance. For example, we fund the gender unit in Afghanistan’s independent electoral commission. 3. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): What steps his Department is taking to address governance issues in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. [99630] Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I welcome the Government’s approach to putting women The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for at the heart of international development efforts, especially International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): Good the most recent drive to combat domestic violence and governance is central to improving the lives of the trafficking in the poorest countries. Will my right hon. Congolese people. We supported voter education for Friend give some more information about how that will 2 million citizens; we are working to increase work in the forthcoming months and years? mining revenues by a total of $2.8 billion over 10 years through improved transparency; we are empowering Mr Duncan: My hon. Friend the Minister for Equalities 2,500 communities to control their own development; is the UK’s ministerial champion on tackling violence and we are strengthening public financial management against women and girls overseas. She has made successful in the DRC. visits to India and Nepal, for example, to raise awareness of this agenda, and DFID has increased its focus in Ann McKechin: I am grateful to the Minister for his 25 out of our 28 bilateral programmes to tackle violence response, but he will be aware of the significant legal against women. challenges to the elections that have just been held in the DRC and of the level of violence that has occurred Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): In assisting women’s in that country over many years, which has caused the groups in Egypt, the Select Committee on Foreign deaths of more than 3 million people. What steps are Affairs recently went on a visit and met some of them. the Government taking to work with the international One of the issues raised with us, particularly by women community to ensure that good governance and the who had demonstrated in Tahrir square, was the forced safety of the population is our priority in the weeks to virginity tests that many of them had to undertake. A come, as we await this outcome? military court has just acquitted the doctor responsible Mr O’Brien: The hon. Lady is entirely correct to say of the charges against him. Will the Minister raise this that this is a large challenge facing the Congolese people. issue in conversations with any Egyptian counterparts? We are working to review the priorities for future funding on the question of elections through the CENI, the Mr Duncan: The answer to the right hon. Lady’s DRC’s electoral commission. We are also urging the CENI question is most definitely yes. We are working through to carry out an in-depth investigation into all the allegations. the Arab partnership that we set up specifically to Good governance and, in particular, access to justice, encourage groups, and women in particular, in developing not least for women and girls and in response to sexual countries following the Arab spring. The agenda that violence and violent crimes, is one of the areas in which the right hon. Lady has championed for many years is we are seeking to make strengthening partnerships. one that we share. 243 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 244

Ethiopia Mr O’Brien: Not only could such groups be of assistance, but they already are of great assistance. There are many 5. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): examples of faith-based groups and others that are What recent assessment he has made of the helping and complementing the national malaria control development situation in Ethiopia. [99632] programmes and many of the large international programmes. We have set up a group in our Department The Secretary of State for International Development to work with the Synod to consider precisely what more (Mr Andrew Mitchell): Ethiopia is making real progress can be done and how that assistance and complementary in development and Britain’s programme plays a crucial activity can be more effective. role, as I saw for myself on the ground during January. Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) Harriett Baldwin: As my entry in the register shows, I (LD): One of the key players in eradicating malaria is travelled with Save the Children to Ethiopia during the the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and February recess and I saw at first hand how UK aid is Malaria. Will the Government consider calling an saving children’s lives in remote parts of the country. emergency replenishment conference to increase the Will my right hon. Friend update the House on how funds for that organisation so that it can work further UK aid is helping with malnutrition in Ethiopia and and faster towards eradicating the diseases, saving money other parts of the world? in the long run on treatment? Mr Mitchell: I thank my hon. Friend for making that Mr O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid visit with Save the Children. I know she has both great point. The global health fund is making a significant interest and great expertise in that area. She asks about contribution to the eradication of malaria over time as the results, and last year Britain secured provision so well as to combating HIV/AIDS and TB. With the that some 1.7 million children are getting into school. cancellation of round 11, there is now a question mark We have also conducted a very successful pilot programme over how we can continue the funding. I can assure him to help eradicate early marriage. Over the next four that the UK’s pledge of £1 billion between 2008 and years, Britain will help to ensure that some 2 million 2015, of which we have contributed £638 million to children are able to go to school in Ethiopia. date, is showing the UK’s leadership. We stand ready to Malaria make further funding available when the reforms that we want to see have been put through. 6. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to tackle malaria in developing Development Assistance countries. [99633] 7. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): What The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for recent progress he has made in bringing forward International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): The legislative proposals to set official development UK Government are committed to helping halve malaria assistance at 0.7% of gross national product. [99634] deaths in at least 10 of the worst affected countries by 2015. We will achieve that through support to country The Secretary of State for International Development programmes and through multilateral channels. I recently (Mr Andrew Mitchell): The coalition Government have visited Kenya, a country where DFID has provided set out how we will stand by the United Kingdom’s 20 million bed nets. Those nets have played a part in the promise to invest 0.7% of national income as aid from 40% reduction in child deaths over the past five years. 2013. The Bill is ready and we will legislate when Fiona Bruce: I thank the Minister for that reply. Will parliamentary time allows. he consider a discrete programme to support malaria treatment in a hospital in Kaesong in north Korea, Sheila Gilmore: May I therefore take from that answer where a remarkable South Korean doctor, Dr Kim—who that the Bill will be in the forthcoming Queen’s Speech? spoke in Westminster recently—and his team attend the medical needs of thousands of North Koreans and have Mr Mitchell: It would be quite wrong of me to identified malaria as one of their most pressing problems? presume the contents of the Gracious Speech, but as I have explained, the Bill is ready to go and will proceed Mr O’Brien: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of when parliamentary time permits. State also had the opportunity to meet the doctor and admire the great work that is being done. It is right that Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Does the our methodology for support should be through our very able Secretary of State—[Laughter]—no, genuinely, investment in the various multilateral organisations, the very able Secretary of State. Does he understand the such as the World Health Organisation and UNICEF. concern in the country that the overseas aid budget is to Working in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea increase from £8 billion to £12 billion because of this on that basis represents the best way to help the people commitment while brave men and women in our armed of that republic. forces are being sacked because of the cuts? Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Mr Mitchell: As I have said to my hon. Friend before, Many faith-based groups are doing excellent work on I yield to no one in my respect for the armed forces the continent of Africa. Will the Minister assure the having served in the Army myself. However, Britain’s House that those faith-based groups that carry out development budget is spent very much in Britain’s excellent work in education and in treating malaria can national interests. We do it because it is the right thing be of assistance in trying to combat its spread? to do and because it is hugely in our national interests. 245 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 246

There is enormous support across the country, which is Mr Leigh: The Somalia conference, which my right not always reflected in all our tabloids, for Britain’s very hon. Friends organised, was a huge success with great strong commitment to this important policy area. hoo-hah, but now that the press caravan has moved on can the Secretary of State assure us that Somalia and its Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Lab): The Secretary of desperately sad situation remain central to his concerns? State has been unable to give hon. Members a cast-iron guarantee today that the 0.7% legislation promised by Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is entirely right to the coalition parties will be in the Queen’s Speech. Can identify the conference on Somalia organised by the he now assure the House that he has made it clear to the Prime Minister as the beginning and not the end of the Chancellor that any retreat in the Budget on the process. Certainly, there will be an absolute commitment Government’s commitment to spend 0.7% on aid by across Whitehall to drive forward the results of that 2013 would be a broken promise? It would be another conference and make them meaningful on the ground in nail in the coffin of the Prime Minister’s claim to have the way that my hon. Friend describes. changed the Conservative party. Topical Questions Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman has set up a straw man that he knows to be untrue. We are the first T1. [99643] Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): If he Government in history who have set out very clearly will make a statement on his departmental precisely how we will reach the 0.7% target. As I have responsibilities. made very clear, the Bill inevitably has to take its place The Secretary of State for International Development in the queue behind essential legislation for rescuing the (Mr Andrew Mitchell): My Department is heavily engaged country from the perilous economic condition inherited in achieving the development results set out to Parliament from the Government of whom he was a part. a year ago in the bilateral and multilateral aid reviews. Biofuels Those include securing education for at least 11 million children, saving the lives of 50,000 women in childbirth, 8. Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): What his policy is and getting clean water and sanitation to more people on the production of biofuels in developing countries. than live in the whole of the United Kingdom. Britain is also heavily engaged in difficult humanitarian situations [99635] around the world, including in Syria. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Graham Jones: On 24 February, Israeli authorities International Development (Mr Stephen O’Brien): The approved 500 new homes in the west bank settlement of Government recognise the threats and opportunities for Shiloh and retroactively legalised more than 200 built- economic growth, poverty reduction and food security without-permits, some in the settler outpost of Shvut related to the expansion of biofuel production in developing Rachel. What does the Minister say to his colleagues in countries, and that they are important subjects for Israel to try to stop these illegal developments? analysis and debate. Mr Mitchell: As the hon. Gentleman makes clear, Ian Lavery: Does the Minister agree that the development these settlements are illegal and the Foreign Secretary of biofuels, particularly in developing countries, should has made that absolutely clear to his opposite numbers, not be at the expense of ordinary people’s human as did I when I visited Israel, the west bank and Gaza rights, particularly with regard to water, insufficient just before Christmas. [Interruption.] food, health and workers’ rights? Will he outline the Government’s policy on biofuels? Mr Speaker: Order. May we have some order in the Chamber? There are far too many noisy private Mr O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman is quite right to conversations when we are discussing the plight of the highlight the challenges and opportunities represented poorest people on the face of the planet. by biofuels, particularly in developing countries, and he ties those issues to human rights. UK biofuels policy is T2. [99644] Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and set by the Department for Transport, but I assure him Sheppey) (Con): What is my right hon. Friend doing to that my Department continues constantly and rigorously ensure that British funds provided to the United to review the evidence on the impact of biofuel production Nations Relief and Works Agency are not abused in a in developing countries, not least in relation to land and way that undermines the middle east peace process? water rights. Mr Andrew Mitchell: I can tell my hon. Friend that I Somalia have looked in detail at that, not least because of the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow 9. Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): What (Robert Halfon) made earlier, and not least because recent assessment he has made of the humanitarian during the latter part of last year I spent time with situation in Somalia. [99636] UNRWA in Gaza. We are very clear that the funds that we are allocating to UNWRA are buying the results The Secretary of State for International Development that we have agreed they should buy. (Mr Andrew Mitchell): Thanks to British aid and support, the lives of hundreds of thousands of Somalis have Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): Last week the been saved, but insecurity and drought continue to target was met on access to safe water, yet diarrhoea threaten lives, as I saw during my visits in recent months continues to be the biggest killer of children in Africa to Puntland, Mogadishu and Dolow, and to Hargeisa in and the second biggest killer in south Asia. What priority Somaliland. is the Department giving to sanitation? 247 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 248

Mr Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right of State tell the House what ministerial representation to flag up the importance of clean water and sanitation. the Government will have at the high-level meeting of That is why in the bilateral and multilateral reviews last Sanitation and Water for All on 20 April? year we set out clearly that this Government would seek to ensure over the next four years that we get clean Mr Andrew Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman is entirely water and sanitation to more people than live in the right to emphasise the importance of this. I referred whole of the United Kingdom. earlier to the Government’s commitment on water and sanitation, and it is because of the importance of the T3. [99645] Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): agenda he has identified that I will be attending the The people of Somaliland have deep wells of conference myself. friendship towards this country and they have made a Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Will my right hon. success of their country, unlike Somalia as a whole. Is it Friend confirm that the whole of the DFID budget is not about time that we recognised their independence? effectively allocated and that, if non-governmental organisations or others exhort him to spend more money Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Foreign Secretary has set on one aspect of international development, however out clearly the need to resolve some disputes which worthwhile, it behoves them to explain where in the affect the land space of Puntland and Somaliland, but departmental budget other savings need to be made? that the issue of the future of Somaliland is a matter for Somaliland, Somalia and the surrounding countries. Mr Mitchell: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The [Interruption.] whole of the international development budget now focuses on outputs and outcomes, buying results, with Mr Speaker: Order. May we have a bit of order so the added extra that we now have an independent that the House can hear Mr Graham Allen? watchdog that can assure taxpayers that the money is really well spent. T5. [99648] Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): Will the Secretary of State commit not only to Mr Speaker: Last, but never least, Sir Gerald Kaufman. work on further food and shelter developments for the people who need them throughout the globe, but to Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): In look at the social and emotional development of the thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the way he children and families of those suffering areas, and to dedicates himself to alleviating the suffering of the learn from some of the early intervention techniques Palestinian people and congratulating him on the trouble being pioneered in this country? he takes to go there and see for himself, may I ask him, with regard to textbooks for Palestinian children and Mr Andrew Mitchell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman children in Gaza, whether it would be valuable if there for giving me notice of this question. I have considered were schools in which they could study, in view of the it in some detail. I agree with him about the importance large number of schools destroyed by the Israelis and of early intervention. Much of the Department’s work their refusal to allow building materials in to rebuild in relation to the early years is to try to make sure that them? contraception is available to women so that they can Mr Mitchell: The right hon. Gentleman, who has space their children and decide whether or not they long and distinguished experience in championing this want children; to focus particularly on nutrition, the area, is entirely right. We will be meeting UNRWA on lack of which causes stunting; and to get children, Monday, but I have seen for myself the effective way it is particularly girls, into school. I believe that those three working to alleviate suffering and promote education in things at least contribute to the agenda that the hon. Gaza and elsewhere. Gentleman so wisely champions.

T4. [99647] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): As PRIME MINISTER many residents of Pendle have friends or family in Kashmir, will my right hon. Friend update the House on the progress of reconstruction work and aid The Prime Minister was asked— following the 2005 earthquake? Engagements

Mr Andrew Mitchell: My hon. Friend is right to point Q1. [99613] Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): If he to the important work that is going on in Kashmir, not will list his official engagements for Wednesday least following the earthquake. I can tell him that work 14 March. has recently been completed. We have refurbished some 37 schools, affecting 10,000 children, and we have also The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Ihave managed to rebuild 35 bridges and secure about 66,000 been asked to reply, as my right hon. Friend the Prime latrines. Minister is visiting the United States for meetings with President Obama. T8. [99651] Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Next I am sure that the whole House will want to join me Thursday is world water day, when we recognise that in sending our deepest condolences to the families and 743 million people worldwide do not have access to safe friends of the servicemen who died in Afghanistan last water, and more than 2.6 billion live without proper Tuesday: Sergeant Nigel Coupe from 1st Battalion the sanitation. Although I welcome the announcement last Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, and Corporal Jake Hartley, week that we have met one of the access to water Private Anton Frampton, Private Chris Kershaw, Private millennium development goals targets, can the Secretary Daniel Wade and Private Daniel Wilford, all from 249 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 250

3rd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment. These were men this Government. With more than 1 million women of outstanding courage and selflessness. This tragic looking for work, what difference does he believe he has incident will long be remembered by our nation, because made to those women? it reminds us all of the immense danger that our armed forces regularly endure to guarantee the safety and The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course any increase in security of our country. unemployment is disappointing. It is a personal tragedy We are also deeply shocked by the appalling news for anyone who loses their job—for them and their that a number of Afghan civilians were wounded and families. The right hon. and learned Lady should be killed in Afghanistan on Sunday morning and send our careful, however, not to pretend that somehow this is a sincere sympathies to the victims and families who have problem which was invented by this Government. Let been affected by this terrible incident. us remember that unemployment among women went up by 24% under Labour. Youth unemployment went This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues up by 40% under Labour—remorselessly from 2004. I and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I suggest that we all need to work together to bring shall have further such meetings later today. unemployment down.

Liz Kendall: I would like to associate myself with the Ms Harman: When we left government unemployment Deputy Prime Minister’s comments on the tragic events was coming down, and this Government’s economic in Afghanistan. I am sure that Members on both sides policy is not only driving up unemployment but means of the House express our deepest sympathies for the that they will have to borrow more. It is hurting but it families who have lost loved ones at this deeply distressing certainly is not working. For all the right hon. Gentleman’s time. bluster, the truth is that having five Liberal Democrats seated around the Cabinet table has made no difference Today the Prime Minister is in America, where whatsoever. This is what the Business Secretary said on unemployment is coming down and the economy is economic policy: he said that this Government have no growing. In Britain, unemployment is now at its highest “compelling vision”. These days no one agrees with level for 17 years and the economy is flatlining. Will the Nick, but does Nick agree with Vince? Deputy Prime Minister explain what has gone wrong? The Deputy Prime Minister: It is worth dwelling on The Deputy Prime Minister: What went wrong was some of the details that have been published this morning the Labour Government for 13 years. They created the on the unemployment statistics, because behind the most unholy mess in 2008, which we are now having to headline figures long-term unemployment actually came clear up. The only way to get the economy moving is to down in the quarterly figures, and very importantly the fix the deficit, get banks lending money again and make number of new jobs created in the private sector outstripped sure we have a tax and benefits system that pays people the number of jobs lost in the public sector. Under the to work. right hon. and learned Lady’s Government, the Labour party sucked up to the City of London and over-relied Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Will the Deputy on jobs in the public sector. We are now having to Prime Minister introduce a freedom Bill to get rid of a remedy those mistakes, and we are creating new jobs in lot of bossy and unloved regulations? the private sector. Ms Harman: The right hon. Gentleman is complacent The Deputy Prime Minister: As my right hon. Friend about unemployment under his Government, and the knows, we have already introduced a large set of measures Lib Dems are making no difference on unemployment, that have removed a lot of unnecessary clutter from the just as they are making no difference on the NHS. statute book, and we will grab any further opportunities When it comes to the NHS, the Deputy Prime Minister to do so with open arms. obviously thinks that he is doing a stunning job, so will he explain why he has failed to persuade the doctors, the Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): nurses, the midwives, the paediatricians, the physicians, I join the Deputy Prime Minister in paying tribute to the physiotherapists and the patients? Sergeant Nigel Coupe, of 1st Battalion the Duke of Lancaster’s Regiment, and from 3rd Battalion the Yorkshire The Deputy Prime Minister: The Labour party used Regiment Corporal Jake Hartley, Private Anthony to believe in reform. Now it believes in starving the Frampton, Private Christopher Kershaw, Private Daniel NHS of cash and is failing to provide any reform. The Wade and Private Daniel Wilford. They died in tragic right hon. and learned Lady’s own party manifesto in circumstances, serving our country with bravery and 2010 said— with determination. Their deaths remind us of the great sacrifice that our armed services make on our behalf, Hon. Members: Answer! and our thoughts are with their families. Mr Speaker: Order. We must hear the response from I join the Deputy Prime Minister also in expressing the Deputy Prime Minister. our horror at the appalling murder in Afghanistan on Sunday of 16 civilians, including nine children. We all The Deputy Prime Minister: Indeed. The right hon. deplore that crime and offer our deepest condolences. and learned Lady’s own party manifesto said that Today’s figures show unemployment up, and the hardest “to safeguard the NHS in tougher fiscal times, we need sustained hit are young people looking for work and women being reform.” thrown out of work. The Deputy Prime Minister says The Labour party was right then and is wrong now. that the Liberal Democrats are making a difference in What happened? 251 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 252

Ms Harman: We are proud of what Labour did when The Deputy Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned we were in government: more doctors, more nurses, Lady has invited me to make comparisons; let me make shorter waiting times, greater patient satisfaction. No three comparisons. The shadow Health Secretary has one believes the right hon. Gentleman. It is no wonder said: that he cannot convince those who work in the health “It is irresponsible to increase NHS spending”. service; he cannot even convince his own conference. Does he not realise that people are still against the Bill So Labour Members do not believe in more money for because it has not changed one bit? It is still a top-down the NHS; we do. That is comparison No. 1. Secondly, reorganisation— Labour Members indulged the private sector with sweetheart deals, which we are making illegal in the Bill. Hon. Members: What? They want sweetheart deals with the private sector; we do not. Thirdly, they presided over inequality in the NHS; we are including a statutory obligation in the Bill Mr Speaker: Order. I said a moment ago that the to deliver more equal outcomes in the NHS, which they Deputy Prime Minister’s response must be heard. The failed to deliver in 13 years. question from the deputy leader of the Labour party will be heard. That is the be-all and end-all of it. Ms Harman: That is absolute rubbish. In undermining Ms Harman: The Bill is still a top-down reorganisation, the NHS and making Shirley Williams vote for it, the it is still going to cost the NHS a fortune, and it is still Deputy Prime Minister has trashed not one but two going to lead to fragmentation and privatisation. It is national treasures. He did not need to sign the Bill, but clear that the Deputy Prime Minister will not stand up he did. He could stop the Bill, but he will not. He says for the NHS—the only thing he stands up for is when that the Lib Dems make a difference, but they do not. the Prime Minister walks in the room. What has happened to that fine Liberal tradition? They must be turning in their graves: the party of William The Deputy Prime Minister: Some of the right hon. Gladstone; the party of David Lloyd George: now the and learned Lady’s colleagues must think that the Liberal party of Nick Clegg. Democrats make a difference, because they were handing out leaflets at our conference in Gateshead while her The Deputy Prime Minister: I know that the right leader was throwing a sickie and going to watch Hull hon. and learned Lady has her prepared script which City play football instead. She says that she is proud of she sticks to religiously, but it is worth having a question Labour’s record. Is she proud of the fact that her and answer session; that is what this whole thing is Government spent £250 million of taxpayers’ money on actually about. What we are doing—the two parties sweetheart deals with the private sector that did not that have come together in the coalition—is to sort out help a single NHS patient? Is she proud of the fact that the banking system, which she left in a mess; to sort the Health Act 2006, which the hon. Member for Leicester out the public finances, which she left in a mess; to sort West (Liz Kendall) worked on, was a privatiser’s charter out the economy, which she left in a mess; and to stop in which her Government offered an 11% premium to the arbitrary privatisation of the NHS, which she left in the private sector to undercut the NHS? a mess. Do you know what? In government, the Labour party ran out of money; in opposition, it is running out Ms Harman: We will compare what our Government of ideas. did—[Interruption.] Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): My right hon. Friend Mr Speaker: Order. Some Members who are perhaps may be aware of the figures that were released this not initiated in the proceedings of Prime Minister’s week, which show that there has at least been some Questions are yelling “Answer!” I remind the House progress towards the target of 25% of places on boards that in these matters the Prime Minister or the Deputy being filled by women by 2015. What will the coalition Prime Minister does the answering; that is the situation. Government do to ensure that they meet that target and enrich our boards with a diversity of talent that will Ms Harman: We will compare what our Government help to achieve the growth that our country needs? did on the NHS with what the Deputy Prime Minister’s Government are doing any day. He says that the problem with the Bill is that doctors and nurses just do not The Deputy Prime Minister: It is excellent news that understand it, but the problem is that they do. However, there has been real progress in the few short months in even at this late stage it is within his power to stop the which we have been in government—far more progress Bill. Next Monday, the Bill reaches its final stage in the than was delivered in 13 years under Labour—to get House of Lords. There are 90 Lib Dem peers, and their more women on to our boards. I think that everybody votes will decide whether the Bill becomes law. Will he now agrees with the consensus that having more women instruct Shirley Williams and his peers to vote to stop on boards is good for all companies. There has been a the Bill? woefully unrepresentative mix on our boards. I very much hope that we will continue to apply the right kind The Deputy Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned of voluntary pressure to see the representation of women Lady has invited me to make a comparison. Let me increase further. make three comparisons. [Interruption.] Q2. [99614] Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): Mr Speaker: Order. I say it again: the Deputy Prime I sincerely hope that the Deputy Prime Minister Minister’s response must be heard, and that is all there enjoyed our famous north-east hospitality and the is to it. support of Northumbria police at his spring 253 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 254 conference in Gateshead. Will he tell the House when Prime Minister agree that the safest place to drink is in the 3,000 extra police he promised at the general the community pub, that beer is a lower-strength drink, election will be in post? and that scrapping the beer duty escalator would create 5,000 jobs? Will he take his Treasury colleagues out for The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady’s party a beer and tell them not to put up the duty on the great acknowledges, the police need to make savings. The key British pint? thing is not what the total number is, but where the police—[Interruption.] The Deputy Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend knows, all such matters are for the Chancellor to announce at Mr Speaker: Order. I do not know what hon. Members the time of the Budget, but I am sure everyone across have had for breakfast, but I want no part of it. The the House agrees with his sentiment that we should Deputy Prime Minister’s answers must be heard. support community pubs, which are such an important part of the fabric of our communities up and down the The Deputy Prime Minister: The key thing is whether country. police officers are properly deployed. Over the past decade, far too many police officers have been tied up in Q4. [99616] Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Is knots, filling out paperwork in the back office, rather the Deputy Prime Minister aware that now that the than being out in our communities and on the streets gang of four Tories are gallivanting around America, where they belong. he has got a chance to shine? What does he really, really think about this Murdoch sleaze and the latest Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): development—the Prime Minister riding borrowed Does my right hon. Friend share the priorities of my police horses, having employed Andy Coulson in the constituents, who believe that this Parliament should heart of government? Man to man, what does he really focus its attention on cutting the deficit, promoting think? I will give him a chance to separate himself from growth and getting people off welfare and into work? the serried ranks of Tories behind him. Come on, be a They would be bemused if they learned that we were to man! spend much of our time discussing the reform of the House of Lords. How shall I explain that priority to Hon. Members: More! them?

The Deputy Prime Minister: I suspect that my right Mr Speaker: Order. Let us hear the answer. hon. Friend will do so in the same way as he will no doubt explain to his constituents that there are other The Deputy Prime Minister: We had to wait a while priorities, such as changing the boundaries of constituencies, for the hon. Gentleman to get going, but it was great which I know is close to his heart and that of his party. I when he did. I think we are soon going to celebrate, if think that Governments and Parliaments can do more that is the right verb, 42 years of his presence in this than one thing at once. I also believe that it is a simple House, and I am delighted to see that in all that time he democratic principle that the people who make the laws has not mellowed one bit. of the land should be elected by the people who have to obey the laws of the land. Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): Will the Deputy Prime Minister join me and my right hon. Friend the Q3. [99615] Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) in congratulating (Lab): Mr Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.] My the citizens of Chelmsford on their newly acquired apologies, Mr Speaker. It is elsewhere that the deputies status following Her Majesty’s announcement that are present today. Study after study shows that it is Chelmsford is to be a city? Does he agree that it is crucial for older people that NHS services work closely entirely appropriate in Olympic year that Essex’s first with social care. My primary care trust in Blackpool city should be chosen when Essex is also looking forward has been doing that by working alongside the council’s to hosting the mountain biking competition during the social services in the same set of offices. Why is the Olympics? Deputy Prime Minister still cheerleading for a Bill that scraps trusts and such co-operation, and that puts the The Deputy Prime Minister: I am not sure whether health of older people, including those in my my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob constituency, at risk? Russell) would entirely share that sentiment—we are all aware of the Colchester-Chelmsford rivalry. However, I The Deputy Prime Minister: I am backing a Bill that can confirm the announcement today of the results of includes, for the first time, statutory obligations to the civic honours competition in honour of Her Majesty integrate social and health care. The hon. Gentleman is the Queen’s diamond jubilee, namely that Chelmsford, right that one of the abiding failings of our health Perth and St Asaph have been awarded the right to call service is that social and health care are not properly themselves cities, while Armagh will from now on have integrated. There has not been much integration over a lord mayor. Although I know there will be disappointment the past 10 years. We are trying to change that. Secondly, in other communities that entered the contest, this is the creation of health and wellbeing boards will bring another announcement that will really lift the spirits of together representatives of the NHS and social care. the nation in this, the year of the Queen’s diamond jubilee. Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): As the chairman of the all-party parliamentary beer group, I commend the Q5. [99617] Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Government for their efforts to tackle the irresponsible Before the general election, the Deputy Prime Minister pricing of alcohol by supermarkets. Does the Deputy said that he was profoundly hostile to the closure of 255 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 256

Remploy factories. Now, 1,700 disabled people are The Deputy Prime Minister: I hear what the hon. losing their jobs because of the closure of 36 factories. Gentleman says. This is an important issue and it is What difference has he made? important to get the balance right. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is working to The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Lady will ensure that the GLA works effectively and bears down know, this is a consequence of a review conducted by on abuse, such as that in Morecambe bay to which he Liz Sayce, the head of the UK disability forum. Her alludes, but that it does so in as business-friendly a conclusions are supported by such organisations as manner as possible to minimise the amount of unnecessary Mind, Mencap and others, and I do not want to disagree red tape. with them lightly. They say—this is their conclusion and what they think we should be doing—that segregated Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I employment, which was started in the aftermath of the am sure the Deputy Prime Minister would like heartily second world war, is not the best way to promote the to congratulate the city of Perth on the restoration of interests of disabled people in this country in the its city status in today’s diamond jubilee announcement 21st century. on official city status. He will know of the fantastic cross-community, cross-party support that has led to Q14. [99626] Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): the restoration of that fantastic civic honour. May I Last weekend, the Deputy Prime Minister spoke thank the palace, the Deputy Prime Minister and his about the need for a tycoon tax. Does he intend that to Department for organising this competition and for include individuals who claim that they want tax that tremendous award today? raised on the rich, yet set up companies so that they pay only 20%, not 50%, of their income, such as Ken The Deputy Prime Minister: Those are the kind of Livingstone? questions I like. It is a good thing, and of course, on behalf of everybody in the House, I would like to The Deputy Prime Minister: It is worth dwelling for a convey my congratulations to all the people of Perth minute on the explanation provided by Ken Livingstone who have worked in such a fabulous way, and on a for his exotic tax arrangements. I quote from an interview cross-party basis, to get this accolade and award today. that he gave just this weekend: “I get loads of money, all from different sources, and I give it to Q8. [99620] Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): One an accountant and they manage it”. treasured piece of green space near Cheltenham is That is modern socialism for you. attracting a lot of sporting attention this week, but other local green spaces treasured by local people will be at risk if the national planning policy framework Q6. [99618] Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): In does not help us to follow Germany’s example of September 2010, I raised with the Prime Minister the combining economic success with tough controls to case of a part-built college in my constituency that lost protect the countryside. Will my right hon. Friend £4 million following the closure of the regional reassure us that a truly green planning framework is development agency. I asked the Prime Minister for a still a safe bet? hand-up, not a handout, for the young people in my constituency. Last week, that college was officially opened, yet 18 months on there is no sign of progress The Deputy Prime Minister: The Government will in addressing the shortfall. As the Deputy Prime publish the national planning policy framework shortly. Minister has said, there should be It is important that we do everything, including through the planning system, to promote growth, because we “no…barriers to people’s talent and aspiration”. need growth, jobs and new homes, particularly for Will he help give the young people of West Lancashire a young families who are unable to have a home to call hand-up? their own. Of course, that should be tempered by social and environmental considerations. That balance will be The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course, Ministers will properly reflected in the planning framework when it is be more than willing to look into the case of the hon. published—I hope—shortly. Lady’s college. Colleges are unbelievably important in providing skills and support to young people seeking to Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): On Monday, get the right qualifications to get into work. They have the Housing and Local Government Minister told me been working successfully with the Government, not and the House that the Government have no plans or least, for instance, to provide a hugely expanded wish to introduce rent controls in the private sector. Is apprenticeship programme—the largest expansion in the Deputy Prime Minister aware that the increase in apprenticeships ever in our country. I am more than private sector rents in central London and the capping happy to ensure that Ministers look at the case she of housing benefits means, in effect, that many families raises. on benefit are being forced out, and that a process of social cleansing is going on? Will he give a commitment Q7. [99619] David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) that the Government will examine the case for private (Con): After the 2004 Morecambe bay cockle pickers sector rent controls? disaster, the Gangmasters Licensing Authority was created. Although the GLA has protected vulnerable The Deputy Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman workers, it has also been a burden to business. Will my knows, we accompanied the restraint on the housing right hon. Friend assure me that any cuts in red tape benefit budget—there was a commitment in the Labour will not leave workers unprotected, particularly those party manifesto to bring that part of the benefits system in the shell fisheries industry? under control—with a major fund to deal with hard 257 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 258 cases. We have also unveiled a number of measures that Q11. [99623] Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The should lead to a significant increase in the building of Ministry of Justice announced today that it had given affordable homes. The lack of supply of affordable two new contracts, worth £30 million of public money, homes is the underlying problem in London and elsewhere to A4e. This company has been under investigation by in the country. the police, the Department for Work and Pensions and the Public Accounts Committee, and since I have been Q9. [99621] Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): raising concerns about it, I have received 40 or 50 e-mails Changes to child benefit will mean that a single income from members of the public alleging fraud and bad family earning £43,000 a year, with one parent staying practice. Are the Government going to continue handing at home to care for the children, will subsidise a couple out public money to A4e? earning more than £80,000. Does the Deputy Prime Minister think that that is fair? The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Lady raises a very serious issue. The police investigation into allegations The Deputy Prime Minister: I think it is fair that of fraud at A4e concern contracts entered into by the someone who is earning far, far beyond the average previous Government. We have now launched our own should not be subsidised by, and receiving child benefit audit of the existing contracts that A4e has received from, people on much lower incomes. The hon. Gentleman from government, and if there is any evidence of systematic raises a perfectly valid point, which is that the cut-off abuse, of course we will end all contracts with A4e. point can create those anomalies and cliff edges—as he said, one earner on £43,000 will have their child benefit Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): The six British removed while two earners earning £80,000 will not. We servicemen killed in Afghanistan last week will be have all said that we will look at a pragmatic way of repatriated next Tuesday and include three of my implementing this in a sensitive manner. constituents: Corporal Jake Hartley, Private Danny Wilford and Private Anthony Frampton. At this difficult time Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): The Deputy for the families, will the Deputy Prime Minister assure Prime Minister will be aware of the very serious incidents me and my constituents that everything is being done in my constituency involving three separate explosive by the Government to support the families? devices planted since Friday, the most recent being adjacent to two local schools. Will he join me in condemning The Deputy Prime Minister: I know how strongly the such reckless attacks, which bring misery to the community hon. Gentleman must feel about this terrible accident, and place lives at risk, and will he assure the House that, given that three of his constituents have sadly lost their in the absence of the International Monitoring Commission, lives. I know that the MOD and, I am sure, the Secretary the UK Government will continue to monitor closely of State would wish to confirm to him personally that any linkages between such activity and proscribed they are doing absolutely everything possible in quite organisations? difficult circumstances to ensure that the bodies are returned to the families as soon as possible. The Deputy Prime Minister: I am sure I speak on Q12. [99624] Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Has the behalf of the whole House in utterly condemning the Deputy Prime Minister considered the implications of cowardly pipe bomb attacks in east Belfast, which the Treasury’s planned changes to the controlled endangered the lives of all those in the surrounding foreign companies rules, which will incentivise areas, including those of young children attending school. multinationals having recourse to tax havens? Opening It was totally reprehensible. I understand that all these this new tax loophole is estimated to cost developing attacks are now being investigated by the Police Service countries some £4 billion in fair and much-needed of Northern Ireland. There is no indication, at present, revenue and the Exchequer here £1 billion in fair and that these were terrorist attacks, and they therefore fall much-needed revenue. Will this perverse and invidious to the purview of the Northern Ireland Justice Minister. change be corrected in forthcoming Budget measures? Q10. [99622] Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): The The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman EU is currently consulting on changes to the rules raises an important issue. I have spoken to campaigners governing state aid in assisted areas. The Government about this matter, and I know that ActionAid, for have shown commitment to northern Lincolnshire by instance, has spoken to Treasury Ministers as well. Like establishing an enterprise zone to attract large all international tax matters, it is incredibly complicated businesses. The changes will restrict aid only to small once we get into the detail, but it is something that was and medium-sized enterprises. Will the Deputy Prime not dealt with in the past 13 years and which we are now Minister assure me that the Government will fight prepared to look into. these proposals and look for alternatives? Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): The Deputy Prime Minister: I am delighted that the Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming today’s enterprise zone in north Lincolnshire and the Humber launch of the Government’s adoption action plan, which area is now taking shape. It will be a huge boost, not sets out how we can achieve more adoptions more least through investment from such major investors as quickly? Does he agree that making adoption work well Siemens in the renewable energy sector in that part of everywhere should be the priority of all of us who have the world. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about the interests of vulnerable people at heart? the European Commission reviewing how those rules will be applied for regional aid—from 2014 onwards, I The Deputy Prime Minister: I am sure that we speak think. We are extremely mindful that we do not want on behalf of everyone in the House when we say that it those rules to undermine the excellent work taking is very frustrating for couples and parents who want to place in north Lincolnshire. adopt children, and not good for the children concerned, 259 Oral Answers14 MARCH 2012 Oral Answers 260 when there are inordinate delays. That is why I think it are only half as likely to study maths or physics. What is a very good thing that there seems to be a general are the Government going to do about the social mobility consensus on the announcements made recently by the issue that we face in the sciences, and does he support Secretary of State for Education and the Prime Minister the proposed Sir Isaac Newton maths school in Norfolk to accelerate the adoption process to ensure that this to help to address this issue? will now indeed happen. The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Lady highlights Q13. [99625] Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab): Is it an incredibly important point. It is one of the reasons right that when my constituent took her young why the new English baccalaureate places great emphasis daughter to A and E, she later received a letter from on those scientific disciplines; it is why we have protected her GP saying that the visit was inappropriate and also the science budget, in order to send out a clear signal reminding her of the cost? Is this going to be the future that we value sciences; and it is why we have placed such of the NHS under this Government, with vulnerable an emphasis on STEM subjects—science, technology, and elderly people scared to ask for treatment? engineering and maths—because we need more youngsters, particularly those from disadvantaged backgrounds, taking up maths and science courses for our collective futures The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course not, and clearly and the country as a whole. that letter was issued under the current system. However, the hon. Gentleman touches on a serious issue that not Q15. [99627] John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) only we in this country face, but every developed society (Lab/Co-op): The Deputy Prime Minister says that the faces, which is that we have health care systems that Health and Social Care Bill would be going through were not designed for a massively ageing population or unamended without the Liberal Democrats, but will he for an increasingly large number of older people with listen to people up and down the country who know long-term chronic conditions spending much, much the real truth: that the Tories would not be getting their longer in hospital than before. That is why we need to shambolic Bill at all without him and his MPs ensure that they are kept well and strong, in so far as propping them up? possible in their homes and in their communities. That is what this NHS Bill is all about. The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said before, I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman would welcome Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): Students legislation that outlaws the practice, indulged in on an at comprehensive school are just as likely to study industrial scale by his party, of giving sweetheart deals A-level history as their private school counterparts, but to the private sector. 261 14 MARCH 2012 Food Waste 262

Food Waste I am well aware that about half of all food waste is down to householders, but that sector is starting to Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order achieve steady reductions, with a 13% reduction over No. 23) the past three years. Supermarkets and manufacturers 12.38 pm have played a role in supporting that reduction. For example, Warburton’s has removed “display until” dates Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I beg to move, from its bread, and Asda has introduced resealable That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require large food salad bags. retailers and large food manufacturers to take steps to reduce food waste and donate surplus food to charities for redistribution There is also a significant food waste problem at the and, where food is unfit for human consumption, to make it start of the food supply chain. Inequitable business available for livestock feed in preference over disposal; to encourage tactics employed by some supermarkets, such as obliging and incentivise all other businesses and public bodies which their suppliers to accept the risk on unsold food, are generate food waste to donate a greater proportion of their due to be addressed by the much-delayed groceries code surplus for redistribution; to protect from civil and criminal adjudicator Bill. I very much hope that that Bill will be liability food donors and recipient agencies where food has been included in the next Queen’s Speech, and that the donated in good faith; and for connected purposes. adjudicator will be given the teeth that it needs to be This Bill is backed by Friends of the Earth, WWF effective. UK, FareShare, FoodCycle and Feeding the 5,000, as I am by no means saying that retailers and manufacturers well as the chef Lorraine Pascale and many others who are totally to blame, but they do waste a staggering have expressed their support over the past few days. 3.6 million tonnes of food per annum. Reasons for that People have been shocked to hear of the absolutely include over-production caused by inaccurate forecasting; scandalous levels of food waste in this country and they labelling errors and barcode problems; a few damaged want Parliament to act. Many MPs have been visiting items resulting in a whole tray of goods being rejected; food banks in their constituencies recently to see the and expired promotional campaigns and seasonal offers. excellent, although sadly necessary work that they do, For example, any products carrying Olympics promotional and we had a well-attended debate on food poverty in offers will be dumped as soon as the games are over. this Chamber a month or two ago. It is important to note that the main problem is not Now is not the time to debate why so many people are the so-called back-of-the-store waste—that is, the unsold having to turn to food banks to feed themselves and food that is put into skips at the end of the day. By far their families. These are tough economic times, food the bigger problem is food that never makes it on to the prices are rising at above the rate of inflation, and many supermarket shelves in the first place—the food that people are struggling to make ends meet. The charity never even leaves the distribution centre. I have been FareShare is feeding 35,500 people a day, which involves told of one premium brand of breakfast cereal, for 8.6 million meals a year. It is supplying 67 food banks example, that is not put on the shelves if it has less than and other outlets across Bristol alone. Many other six months to run till its sell-by date. If the supermarket organisations are doing the same or similar work, including does not need to bring it from the distribution centre the Trussell Trust, which has 170 food banks and predicts before then, it is wasted even though it would be edible that up to 500,000 people will rely on food banks by for at least six months and probably a lot longer. 2015, and FoodCycle, which gets volunteers to run The food industry’s progress under the phase 2 of the community cafés providing good-quality nutritious meals Courtauld agreement is slow. The agreement set a relatively at low cost or at no cost to anyone who wants to drop unambitious target of a 5% reduction in product and by. Those organisations would be able to do much more packaging waste in the grocery supply chain by the end of that great work if more food were made available to of this year. This already compares badly with the them. At the moment, however, about 50% of edible, equivalent Norwegian and Dutch targets of 25% and healthy food across the EU that could be eaten is not 20%. Despite the low hurdle, the work of the Waste and being eaten. Globally, 1 billion people could be lifted Resources Action Programme—WRAP—and the out of malnourishment with less than a quarter of the expenditure of millions of pounds of public money to food that is wasted in the US, the UK and Europe. subsidise big business’s waste-reduction efforts, the UK’s The Bill is not just about tackling food poverty. By performance has been described by Tristram Stuart, the creating unnecessary demand, waste drives up food author of “Waste: uncovering the global food scandal” prices and the surplus puts pressure on scarce land and as “spectacularly dismal”. Businesses have cut their resources, contributes to deforestation and needlessly food waste by a mere 0.4% in the first year. Unfortunately, adds to global greenhouse emissions. In fact, 10% of we see only the figures published for the sector as a rich countries’ greenhouse gas emissions come from whole, but I know that some companies are doing growing food that is never eaten. The water used globally considerably better than others, showing that where to irrigate wasted food would be enough to meet the there is a will, there is a way. As it stands, it is estimated domestic needs of 9 billion people—the number expected that only 1% to 3% of the food that retailers could give on the planet by 2050. to charities is actually donated, and that the percentage Government policy has to date focused on slightly from food manufacturers is even smaller. environmentally better methods of disposal, such as To turn to the detail, the Bill has three main provisions. anaerobic digestion and composting, ahead of landfill. In 1996, a law was introduced in the USA—the Bill However, there is no Government incentive for diverting Emerson Good Samaritans Food Donation Act, which surplus food from disposal to levels higher up the food has been replicated in every state in Australia. It protects waste pyramid such as human consumption and, when good-faith donors and recipients such as food banks it is unfit for human consumption, livestock feed. Only from civil and criminal liability. This has made a huge action such as that could properly justify the carbon difference to the willingness of donors to donate food, footprint created in making that food. as we heard yesterday at this Bill’s parliamentary launch 263 Food Waste14 MARCH 2012 Food Waste 264 from Jim Larson of Food Donation Connection. He than wasted. I was particularly disappointed when Open works in the US with companies such as Starbucks, Door in St Albans lost the food that had been available KFC and Pizza Hut, arranging for their unsold food to from Marks & Spencer because of the very worry to be frozen and passed on to hostels, shelters and other which the hon. Lady has referred—that it would face charities. He said that the lack of liability protection liability if something went wrong. That was a real was a wasted resource. “recurring theme in his discussions” The problem that I hope can be addressed as the Bill with UK branches of US food companies, which cited makes progress—in some ways, I hope it does; I am this as their main barrier to donating. Exempting companies worried about only a tiny bit of it—is the provision that from liability in the USA has led to a surge in food refers to donation. “food…unfit for human consumption” I was grateful to the Department for Environment, being made Food and Rural Affairs Minister in the House of Lords “available for livestock feed in preference over disposal”. for attending my launch yesterday and, as a consequence I am completely sympathetic to the aims behind that, of what he heard, for asking his officials to meet Jim but I remind the hon. Lady that in June 1988, the Larson this morning. I gather it was a very successful Government banned the use of mammalian products in meeting, and I must stress that this legislation imposes feeds destined for ruminants. She might remember that, no burden at all on businesses—on the contrary, it frees unfortunately, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease was contributed them from liability. to by the prion that existed when mammalian products The Bill calls for large retailers and manufacturers to were put into the feed of ruminants. The disease’s be required to donate more of their surplus food to spread was not stopped and, in March 1996, the charities, and for Government to encourage all other Government banned the use of all flesh in the feeds for businesses and public bodies that generate food waste domestic animals because the prion linked to CJD lived to do the same. It basically enshrines in law the waste through the processing of the two products. hierarchy that will have to be implemented by all businesses I ask the hon. Lady—I am sure everyone is hugely and public bodies by the end of 2013 under the latest sympathetic to what she wants to achieve with the EU waste framework directive. This ranks measures Bill—whether she could tweak the wording so that according to their environmental impact, giving the there is no obligation to make all food waste available first priority to preventing waste from occurring in the for animal feed. I hope that that would stop any future first place, but stipulates that when surplus does arise, recurrence of inappropriate foods being fed to livestock the next priority should be feeding humans, then livestock and diseases potentially crossing the species divide. feed, and so on, on to disposal methods such as anaerobic digestion, composting and, worse of all, landfill. That is my only objection to the Bill, and I congratulate the hon. Lady on presenting it. I am one of the old As I said, my Bill would apply to public bodies, too, school who look at an apple and, if it is not wrinkly encouraging them to reduce and redistribute food waste. with a few things growing out of the top of it, will The Houses of Parliament are, I am told, one of the happily eat it regardless of the date on the label. My biggest catering outlets in the country. Answers to children look at the top of a yoghurt pot and say, “Oh parliamentary questions have revealed that a huge amount mum, that was due to be thrown out yesterday”, but the of food—of course, that also means money—is wasted hon. Lady is absolutely right: we have moved too far here. I will be trying to persuade both Houses to sign up down the road of throwing away perfectly good, edible to an agreement for the hospitality sector, managed by food. Years ago, people would use common sense to the Waste and Resources Action Programme, as many determine whether food was still edible. Government Departments, perhaps all, have now done. I have an offer from the Sustainable Restaurant Association, Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): which is prepared to carry out a food audit of Parliament’s I use food a week after the date on the label. catering services and to see how waste can be reduced or redistributed. We need to put our own House in order if Mrs Main: My hon. Friend says that he eats things we want others to do so, too. with green mould on them. This is a Bill whose time has come. In tough times when people are struggling to make ends meet and to Daniel Kawczynski: No—not green mould. put food on the table, the waste and profligacy in the food supply chain seem ever more obscene. I am gratified Mrs Main: My concern relates only to the small part to see the number of people who have turned up to of the Bill that requires all food products to be available support this Bill today, and I hope that we can achieve a for processing. If that could be tweaked, I would withdraw cross-party consensus and take these measures forward. my objection. Question put and agreed to. 12.47 pm Ordered, Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): It is with a degree That Kerry McCarthy, Luciana Berger, Robert Flello, of regret that I want to oppose the Bill—not the whole Andrew George, Zac Goldsmith, Kate Green, Caroline Bill, just a tiny bit of it. With all the good will intended Lucas, Dame Joan Ruddock, Laura Sandys, Henry in my speech, I hope to draw the hon. Lady’s attention Smith, Joan Walley and Dr Alan Whitehead present to my concern. the Bill. May I first congratulate the hon. Lady, as she absolutely Kerry McCarthy accordingly presented the Bill. right that too much food is wasted and that many things Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on could be done to ensure that more food is utilised rather Friday 27 April 2012 and to be printed (Bill 318). 265 14 MARCH 2012 266

David Wright (Telford) (Lab): On a point of order, Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill Mr Deputy Speaker. I do not know whether you have Considered in Committee seen this morning’s edition of The Times, but it states: “The Chancellor will announce details in the Budget next week to borrow money cheaply” [MR LINDSAY HOYLE in the Chair] from international monetary funds. Clause 1 This is a very serious matter. It appears that there has been a leak from the Treasury a week before the Budget. FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO REDUCE CHARGES Have you, Mr Deputy Speaker, received any indication from the Chancellor that he intends to come to the 12.55 pm House immediately to make a statement on these issues? They relate to the bond markets, and they have a market Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I beg to impact. It is clear that information relating to next move amendment 1, page 2, line 2, at end insert— week’s Budget has been leaked directly from the Treasury. ‘(5A) When we raise issues and questions about fiscal matters (a) In exercising the power under subsection (3) the Secretary in the House, we are told by Treasury Ministers and of State may make an order containing a scheme for others that we must wait for the Budget. Is it not time the provision of financial assistance to customers that Ministers did the same? whom the Secretary of State considers are disproportionately adversely affected by the water charges with a view to reducing the impact of those Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): As the hon. water charges. Gentleman is well aware, what is in the Budget is (b) The scheme shall— sacrosanct until Budget day. He has certainly put his (i) specify the customers whose charges are covered by point on the record, and I think that everyone, including the scheme, the Chancellor, is aware of the ministerial code. (ii) set out the basis of the adjustment of the charges, and Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. This morning news emerged (iii) specify the duration of the adjustment. that water cannon and CS gas are apparently to be (c) An order shall not be made under this section unless a available to police forces in London and, indeed, other draft of the statutory instrument containing it has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, parts of the country. Have you received any intimation each House of Parliament.’. that such a major change in policing tactics is indeed being contemplated, and that a Home Office Minister The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): wishes to come and make a statement to the House? With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 1—Water company social tariffs— Mr Deputy Speaker: No information has been given ‘(1) The Secretary of State shall provide in regulations for the to the Chair, and, as the hon. Gentleman is well aware, introduction of minimum standards for water company social the matter that he has raised is not a matter for the tariffs, by 1 April 2013. Chair. However, he has made everyone in the House (2) Regulations made under subsection (1) above shall be aware of it. made by statutory instrument and may not be made unless a draft has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each Business without Debate House of Parliament. (3) Ofwat shall publish 12 months after the passing of this Act and every year thereafter a league table of water companies DELEGATED LEGISLATION reporting the performance of the provision of social tariffs and Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the number of households spending more than 3 per cent. and Order No. 118(6)), more than 5 per cent. of their disposable income on water bills.’. Gavin Shuker: Both the amendment and the new LOCAL GOVERNMENT clause deal with the issue of water affordability for That the draft Localism Act 2011 (Consequential Amendments) customers, but they do so in two different ways. Although Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 9 February, be approved.—(Mr Newmark .) I feel certain that a man as reasonable as the Minister will want to accept both improvements to the Bill, I Question agreed to. should add that I intend to press them to a vote if Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing necessary. Order No. 118(6)), We made clear on Second Reading that, as a responsible That the draft Parish Councils (General Power of Competence) Opposition, we would not seek to frustrate the will of (Prescribed Conditions) Order 2012, which was laid before this the Government in legislating for a reduction in customer House on 9 February, be approved.—( Mr Newmark.) bills throughout the south-west. We accept that Government Question agreed to. action should be taken to ensure that water remains affordable for South West Water customers following the botched privatisation of the early 1990s. We all benefit from the “national treasure” status of Cornwall and Devon’s spectacular coastline, just as—this was pointed out by the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on Second Reading—we benefit from London’s incredible museums, which are also supported by Government action. 267 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 268 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill I pay tribute to Members in all parts of the House Let me give an example. According to yesterday’s who, over a period of years, have sought to correct this Evening Standard, historic injustice. Our work in government in commissioning “The boss of Thames Water today warned that bills will have to Anna Walker to look at the problem of water affordability rise to pay for new pipes and reservoirs if customers are to avoid in the south-west has been coupled with action by the more hosepipe bans in future. present Government in legislating for payments to be Chief executive Martin Baggs, who announced yesterday that made. Let me make it clear to all Members that we the first hosepipe ban in six years will come into force on April 5, support Government action to reduce customer bills in said Thames was ‘living on the past’ and needed to step up levels the south-west. of investment. He told the Standard: ‘The last two years have been exceptionally Amendment 1 is not in any way a wrecking amendment. dry and there needs to be flexibility in the system to deal with It seeks to improve the legislation by providing for that. proper parliamentary oversight of the wide-ranging The flexibility needs to come from one of two directions: it powers in clause 1, which—let me be honest—I suspect means people must use less water during those extreme conditions are intended not to involve the Secretary of State in or we have got to have extra resources so people don’t have to some kind of land grab, but to avoid the Bill’s classification have those restrictions.’ as something other than a money Bill. I can reassure Mr Baggs wants clearance from the regulator Ofwat to step up south-west Members that if the amendment were adopted, investment when the company negotiates its next five-year funding we would not use the additional scrutiny for which it plan from 2015. provides to frustrate the will of the House. Its inclusion London water bills are already set to go up by an inflation-busting would, however, serve as an entirely proper safeguard to 6.7 per cent next month to an average of £339 per household.” prevent the Secretary of State, or her successors, from abusing the powers given to her and extending financial 1pm inducements in any way for any reason. We therefore know that the south and east of our Amendment 1 would ensure that the Secretary of country in particular will require additional investment, State makes an order when she wishes to exercise the putting strain on household budgets. What is a future power in clause 1 to give financial assistance to a water Secretary of State to do now that the principle in and sewerage company in order to secure a reduction in respect of giving taxpayer assistance to regions that are household bills. The amendment requires the scheme struggling to pay their water bills has been breached contained in her order to and after the power in this Bill has been enacted? We are “specify the customers whose charges are covered by the scheme”, pondering what might happen under a benevolent dictator, so that there is clarity about the households who will but let us suppose for a few moments—I am sure it will benefit from a reduction. It requires the scheme to set be hard for you to conceive of this, Mr Hoyle—that a out the basis for the reduction in charges, so that successor Secretary of State, or even the current one, everyone understands why the reduction is being made decided to use the power to reduce bills in an election in the first place and to ensure that the Government’s year. Indeed, this year’s mayoral election in London logic is tested and sound. Crucially, it requires the might serve as a good example in this regard. We believe scheme to that the least the Secretary of State can do is come to a “specify the duration of the adjustment”, Committee Room of this House and demonstrate that she has worked through the pertinent issues. so that this Parliament does not write blank cheques, and so that the most cost-effective option can be considered Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): over an appropriate length of time. The amendment is defective in that there would be In short, the Government will be required to answer regulatory implications in respect of Ofwat, but they the questions that need to be answered if effective have not been considered. Indeed, I am struggling to parliamentary oversight is to be exercised. We feel that understand why we need this amendment at all, given that is especially important given that the Secretary of the current text of clause 1. State can give the assistance in any form whatsoever, including grants, loans and guarantees, and given that, Gavin Shuker: The purpose of the amendment is to because this is a money Bill, it will receive just one day ensure that when the power under clause 1 is triggered, of scrutiny in the other place. there is proper parliamentary accountability and oversight We believe that when the Secretary of State wishes to at the time of making any reductions. The hon. Lady use the powers granted by the Bill in the future, the least mentions the regulatory regime. It would not be particularly she can do is lay out her argument before a representative affected under clause 1 as it currently stands. Ofwat’s Committee of the House. I say that for one simple role will be to see the money coming in and the money reason. As new clause 1 makes clear, there are numerous, going out. This amendment would not change that increasing and varied threats to affordable water, and as situation at all, except that we in this House would have the Government’s own water White Paper makes clear, the opportunity to examine any scheme that is to be our climate is changing, which has profound implications established and to have answers to any questions we for the scarcity of water. New infrastructure may be might have: namely, how long, for which customers and required to supply fresh water, while—as the Government for what duration. have also made clear—complying with higher standards As I have said, we agree with the proposals to give for waste water will require expensive construction projects financial relief to the south-west from April 2013. Indeed, such as the Thames tunnel. More regions will seek to we examined this issue when in government and laid the make a similar case to that of the south-west, and now groundwork for helping 700,000 households in the region. that the principle has been established by the Government’s We therefore accept the argument that the south-west actions, we require a mechanism to test the logic of requires additional help to keep water affordable, but successor Secretaries of State. stopping there misses the point. 269 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 270 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Gavin Shuker] national affordability solution, the first part of new clause 1 would require the Secretary of State to bring The south-west has the highest bills in the country forward plans for minimum standards for water company and about 200,000 people are under water stress. In the social tariffs. Thames region, that number is 1.1 million, however. The second part is just as important. We know that if Our new clause 1 therefore starts with the simple proposition we cannot measure it, we cannot manage it. Therefore, that by April 2013—the month when financial assistance water companies should be held to account by ensuring will start flowing to Devon and Cornwall—the Secretary a league table is published each and every year reporting of State should bring forward minimum standards for on the performance of company social tariffs. In the a company social tariff. We think that is not too much energy sector, Ofgem sets parameters for what can be to ask. included by suppliers as part of their spend on social The numbers speak for themselves. As I established initiatives, and it annually monitors suppliers’ progress on Second Reading, 400,000 households in Wales, 460,000 against the voluntary commitment. A handful of water households in Yorkshire, 780,000 households in the companies already have good social tariff schemes, but Severn Trent region and 1.1 million households in the we want to raise the bar for all companies to the Thames region pay more than 3% of their disposable standards of the rest of the industry, both by requiring income on water. The squeeze on living standards is the Secretary of State to have minimum standards real. This Government’s actions are contributing to approved by Parliament, and by the monitoring and high inflation and pressure on family budgets. The rise reporting of all companies, shaming those poor performers in VAT has pushed up the price of petrol, and the cost into action. By also requiring the number of households of child care is going up at twice the rate of wages, just spending more than 3% and 5% of their disposable as the Government cut that element of the working tax income on water to be published, we can monitor the credit. Families with children who cannot raise their scale of the affordability problem and make meaningful working hours from 16 to 24 could find themselves comparisons between companies. almost £3,000 worse off from next month. Energy prices Our amendment 1 and new clause 1 are attempts to have risen, while for many people pay has been frozen. improve the Bill. We welcome the money for the south-west, The crunch will be felt first and worst by low and but stopping there misses the point. People’s ability to middle-income families, particularly those with children. pay for something as basic as water should not be A single-earner couple household with kids that is subject to a postcode lottery. This issue is at the heart of earning £44,000 might sound well-off—and, indeed, in shaping a socially responsible water industry in the comparison to many, it is—but it will be hit hard by the years to come. I hope the Minister will accept the £1,750 a year that it will lose overnight when child amendments. benefit is scrapped. Miss McIntosh: I followed the arguments of the hon. Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): I am intrigued Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) very closely, that the hon. Gentleman wants to have a debate about and I went along with a great deal of what he had to say, tax credits, as we recently had a vote on such issues. Is particularly his congratulations to the Minister and the he going to mention the fact that this Government are Government on introducing what is a very timely Bill. I delivering free nursery places for the most disadvantaged think I understand the spirit in which the Opposition two-year-olds, and that increasing numbers of children amendments have been tabled. The Front-Bench colleague will be covered by that in the course of this Parliament? of the hon. Member for Luton South, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), is present, and he Gavin Shuker: I will not test your patience, Mr Hoyle, will recall that we spent many—happy—hours scrutinising by continuing that debate. The hon. Gentleman puts his the provisions that were to become the Flood and Water case on the record, but one of the key arguments in Management Act 2010. That Bill was fairly good, but it respect of new clause 1 is the squeeze on family living was improved as we went along—although we did not standards. We believe it would be wrong to park that have sufficient time to address many of its measures, of argument in a different silo from the rising costs of course. water bills. That Act gives enormous order-making powers to People are facing falling living standards, frozen wages the Secretary of State, and I would be interested to and rising water bills. Our amendment would ensure learn from the Minister why the Government have that the power to introduce a company social tariff—a chosen not to draft a parliamentary order in respect of power that we legislated for when in government—is interested parties on this occasion. For the record, a followed by Government action to ensure that these number of hon. Friends—I hope I may call them that—on schemes are effective at making water affordable for both sides of the House would normally be discussing those who are struggling to pay. Under the current the business of the Select Committee on Environment, Government’s plans, the design of any social tariff is Food and Rural Affairs, but we deem this debate so entirely in the hands of each of our 20 or so water important that we thought it was our priority to be here companies. Apart from WaterSure, there will be no to discuss the Bill and these amendments. Obviously, I national tariff, and there will be no national branding of am entirely at one with the Government, given that we water affordability schemes. Outside the south-west, have worked so hard under successive Governments to there will be no new Government money to help those come up with a novel means of helping people with who cannot pay. water bills in the south-west, but it would be helpful to Under this Government’s plans, it is even down to the know why clause 1 made no provision for parliamentary individual companies to decide whether to introduce a scrutiny. I, therefore, have some sympathy with what the social tariff scheme at all. Although we believe the hon. Member for Luton South and his colleagues have industry and Government should be working towards a proposed. 271 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 272 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Amendment 1 and, even more so, new clause 1, on be helpful to know what discussions took place and social tariffs, raise the question of why the hon. Member what level of support the hon. Gentleman has from for Ogmore and the previous Labour Administration water companies and from Ofwat. did not introduce social tariffs as part of the 2010 Act. I did not have the opportunity to discuss this matter In addition, why were they not minded to introduce on Second Reading. It is appropriate to examine new amendments at this stage to deal with bad debt, an issue clause 1 and amendment 1, as I have a concern and I am that is exercising water companies? The Select Committee trying to help the Minister. A helpful Library note took evidence just last week on the water bills that the spells out clearly: average household is having to pay because of the “The Government intends that bills be reduced from April position on bad debt. 2013. The funding will come from the HM Treasury Reserve until the end of the spending review period in 2014-15. After that time Gavin Shuker: The hon. Lady is making her points funding will come from the Department for Environment, Food clearly, and I welcome the spirit in which she makes and Rural Affairs…budget.” them. We have accepted the timetabling for this short I understand that that was confirmed in a House of Bill, which will go through quickly. We have been promised Commons debate in January. a comprehensive water Bill and if we had more time, we “The payment will continue until ‘at least the end of the next would have much to say about bad debt and we would spending review period’.” look favourably on any amendments seeking to deal So my question is: from which part of the Department’s with it. Unfortunately, such amendments have not been budget is this funding going to come from 2014-15 tabled for today. until, presumably, 2019-20? Miss McIntosh: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman I must make a general remark about departmental for those remarks. I hope that the Minister will confirm budgets, and I do not think that the Department for that the draft water Bill will contain provisions on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs is any different in social tariffs and tackling bad debt—I do not know this regard. We had the opportunity to question the whether there is any more recent news as to when it may Secretary of State on the annual report, in its new be published. revised format, and the annual accounts. I think that there is a lack of transparency and clarity in all the The hon. Gentleman also referred to the Anna Walker departmental accounts—I do not single DEFRA out. I report and water efficiency measures. Again, I wonder am deeply concerned about the position for those in the why he did not include any more detailed provisions on south-west whose water bills will or could benefit from water efficiency measures in his amendment. I also this Bill, and for those in other areas who could benefit wonder what the Minister and the Government are subsequently, as highlighted in amendment 1 and new thinking on such measures, given that we are on the clause 1. My real concern relates to how this will be brink of the worst drought for at least 40 years. Anna funded in the next spending review period, given that Walker proposed some imaginative measures that we have not yet worked through all the savings in the households and businesses could take, and it is disappointing budgets of the Department and other agencies, such as that they were not elaborated upon to a greater extent in the Environment Agency. I am prepared to give any the natural environment White Paper or the water White assistance I can in arguing with the Treasury that this Paper. It would be helpful to know the Minister’s thinking money should be ring-fenced. Obviously, there is real on that. A lot of unfinished business on the 2010 Act concern that if it is not ring-fenced or if additional could have found its way into this small Bill, but we money cannot be found, other parts of the budget await confirmation that such things will be dealt with in currently being spent on farming or flood defence will the wider and more comprehensive draft water Bill. simply be hijacked for this purpose. On new clause 1, I am not sure that I entirely followed With those remarks, I welcome the opportunity to the hon. Gentleman’s thinking on minimum standards have this debate and to understand a little more about for water company social tariffs. In what regard are the thinking behind these proposals. However, I shall these to be “minimum standards”? Are they to be have to disappoint the hon. Member for Luton South minimum standards for comparative purposes or will by telling him that I will not be following him into the they govern how the social tariffs would apply? Lobby. Gavin Shuker: I understand the hon. Lady’s confusion on this point. A number of options are available to us in Dan Rogerson: It is a pleasure to serve under your terms of amending the Bill. We felt that the most chairmanship, Mr Hoyle. I follow the hon. Member for appropriate route to go down was to allow companies Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), whom I customarily discretion on whether or not to introduce a company refer to as “Madam Chairman” in the Select Committee. social tariff, but to ensure that, at the very least, any Obviously, it is a delight still to be considering this Bill. such tariff met minimum standards set by the Secretary We are doing so rapidly, in order to make progress and of State and approved by this House. At the moment, get it on the statute book, so that it can start delivering we are at the lowest rung of all the possible interventions fairness for my constituents and those of other Members and we simply seek to move things up one, in the hope across Devon and Cornwall, and so that we can start of getting towards a national affordability solution. putting in place the framework for the necessary works here in our capital. Although the amendment and the new clause proposed 1.15 pm by the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) Miss McIntosh: I am most grateful for that clarification. present a number of opportunities for discussion, they It would be interesting to know the background to the will not necessarily take us that much further forward. amendment and, in particular, to new clause 1. It would The amendment makes a reasonable point: if in future 273 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 274 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Dan Rogerson] I am delighted to see that the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) is in her place. On Second the Secretary of State or any other Secretary of State Reading, when we debated this subject, I intervened on wishes to use the enabling powers of the Bill to make a her and made the point that any social tariff within a difference to another part of the country that seems to water company area presents problems as well as have been disadvantaged, that should be explained to opportunities. If there is to be a social tariff at a the House. I would have thought that it would be significant level for those experiencing the worst problems extraordinary, however, for such a thing to happen in an area such as the south-west, despite the fact that without a great deal of public debate or decades of many people will benefit we must be aware that within campaigning, such as that which we have experienced in an area with a small population, a huge amount of the Devon and Cornwall. Perhaps other parts of the country funding for the tariff will be provided by people just might have such a keen hold on the Secretary of State above the qualification threshold. I am very worried or any future Secretary of State that they could get it all that in-region social tariffs will be unable to deal with pushed through within a matter of weeks, but I suspect the problem. When the hon. Lady set out where she that that would not be the case. The Treasury would would like the Bill to be improved, she said that she want to know very plainly and in great detail why the would do something about national water tariffs. It is a money was required and why it was felt to be a priority. shame that we do not have such a provision and Devon and Cornwall MPs have put the matter before the Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): From Government. I understand that there are issues with the a south-west perspective, the money we are getting is Treasury’s response as that might be regarded as a tax, clearly welcome. As the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, but we must consider how we can address that situation. other parts of the country might have demands, and I do not see how a league table will help, however. given drought measures and so on, there might be Indeed, it might mean that water companies were under reservoirs or other very large schemes in small areas pressure to introduce the tables in such a way that it that might impinge on us as our water bill payers could might disadvantage those people about whom I was be asked to pay towards the costs. That would not be talking—those just above the threshold who will not unreasonable, as we are expecting the payment to go the benefit from the tariff but whose water bills will increase other way. Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern to pay for their hard-pressed neighbours. that, as the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) mentioned, the money is not ring-fenced Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): My hon. Friend is and how it is spent in future will be at the discretion of making a very good point. At the risk of delaying the the Secretary of State? process of the Bill through the further elaboration on the amendments, does my hon. Friend agree that the Dan Rogerson: The hon. Lady is referring to the best way of addressing the issue would be to seek the money identified for the south-west, and the worry that assurance of the Minister that the issue will be addressed it might, to use a watery phrase, be diluted and spread in the forthcoming water Bill as quickly as possible after out across the country. I suspect that that could potentially the Queen’s Speech? happen, but I know that the coalition Government are absolutely committed to seeing this provision through Dan Rogerson: My hon. Friend makes an excellent for the people of Devon and Cornwall. Who knows point. The water Bill will be a further opportunity for us what might happen under a future Government? I hope to revisit these issues and I welcome the fact that hon. that they would take the plight of our water bill payers Members across the House are still considering this equally seriously and continue that level of support. matter as one that needs further exploration. The hon. Lady makes an interesting point. As I understand it, the amendment seeks to ensure Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): I want to reply to that if a Government wished to offer such support to the hon. Gentleman’s point about league tables. The further areas, a statutory instrument would have to be idea came from Ofwat and is meant to ensure that there tabled and debated. I find it hard to believe that any is transparent information for customers, shareholders Government would consider doing such a thing without and the Government so that they understand who is a debate not only in this place but out in the country at levelling the tariffs, where they are going and where the large and, I am sure, a debate in the Treasury too, which money is going. That was Ofwat’s idea and I cannot would have to be conducted publicly as well as privately. claim any credit for it, much as I would like to. I know that that has been the case with the programme we now have for Devon and Cornwall. Although I Dan Rogerson: The hon. Lady is very generous in accept the logic of what the hon. Member for Luton ascribing the idea to Ofwat. I suspect that Ofwat could South said, I will wait to hear what the Minister has to probably do that anyway and would not need legislation; say in reply before I decide what approach to take. if it wanted to publish a league table, it could get the Naturally, I want to support the Government—as I information. Ofwat would have information from would on every occasion, but particularly as regards the companies about where the money was coming from provisions in this Bill. and where it was going and could publish it without its The new clause concerns social tariffs and the next needing to be on the face of the Bill. steps that we might want to take to help people who are under water stress, which, as the hon. Gentleman pointed Miss McIntosh: I remind my hon. Friend that, as out, will still be a significant problem for people in the those on the Opposition Front Bench might not be south-west after the support set out in the Bill is delivered. aware, the Select Committee had some very compelling Of course, water stress is also a worsening problem in evidence from the water companies about social tariffs other parts of the country. paid for by charitable trusts from each water company. 275 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 276 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Dan Rogerson: I thank Madam Chairman—my hon. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Friend—for putting that on the record. I am delighted Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): that the Opposition Front Benchers support what the As Members know full well, the only purpose for which Bill seeks to do for bill payers in Devon and Cornwall we currently plan to exercise the power in clause 1 is to and that they have chosen not to oppose it in any way. I reduce the charges on household customers in the South do not think that the case is proven that either amendment West Water area. We have recognised that the circumstances 1 or new clause 1 will make a huge difference or improve in the south-west are exceptional and we will be addressing the Bill significantly, but they do touch on two areas that unfairness. I am grateful to Opposition Members that I hope the Minister will address. for bringing forward the amendments because they allow us to explain a little more clearly what we are The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): trying to achieve in this part of the Bill. I call the Minister— Our policy has been set out clearly both in the water White Paper and by the Chancellor in the autumn Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab) rose— statement. We will fund South West Water to reduce its customers’ bills by £50 a year from April 2013 and we The Chairman: Ah, I call Julie Hilling. You were a have committed to do that until the end of the next little late, but I am glad that you have joined us. spending review period. To answer the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton Julie Hilling: I apologise, Mr Hoyle, for being a little (Miss McIntosh) asked, yes, from then it will be for the slow in standing to indicate my intention to speak. You next comprehensive spending review period to negotiate can take it that I was confused about which clauses were this out of the Department for Environment, Food and being debated at which time. Rural Affairs’ budget, but that certainly does not imply I want to speak briefly about new clause 1 and, in cuts across other vital parts of its budget. I assure her particular, to press the point of a national social tariff. that this is an absolute priority. It has been hard-fought In the north-west, the affordability of water is affected for by hon. Members from across the south-west, and by deprivation. Unlike the south-west, it is not affected there is an absolute commitment from the Government by geographical issues or expenditure. We are a region to continue the important work to address an unfairness with considerable difficulties and the bills of United that we recognise. Utilities, which is the north-west water company, are As hon. Members from the south-west will testify, close to the national average, but income deprivation is this support for customers in the south-west is the result worse than in any other region. More than half of the of their long campaign. They have fought hard for this country’s most deprived communities are in the north-west, and the problem of high water bills in the region has even though we have only 13% of England’s population. been raised many times in the House. I am proud that Ofwat’s analysis shows that once households in the the Government are making progress on this issue but I South West Water region receive their proposed £50 bill am a little disappointed that the Opposition wish, through reduction, affordability problems will be more severe in amendment 1, to force a further round of discussion on the north-west than in the south-west. Company social the merits of reducing bills in the south-west before we tariffs will not solve the problem, however, as too many can move forward. Let me explain why. The Chancellor’s customers in the north-west are in financial need to Budget or autumn statement is the appropriate place make the in-house cross-subsidy work properly. We for setting out Government spending plans and for therefore need a national social tariff scheme that all doing so within the broader economic context in which water companies would pay into. Taking the hands-off such decisions are made. It is inappropriate to micro-manage approach of leaving it to water companies to provide the economy through individual statutory instruments their own affordability schemes, and certainly giving committing future Government spend. The Government them the choice of whether or not to provide it, will not make many decisions on spending and Parliament does help the people who are most in need in Bolton West. not examine each one in detail through a process involving the laying of statutory instruments. However, the 1.30 pm opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny does exist. DEFRA spending is subject to scrutiny by the excellent Environment, There is no definition of water poverty, but if someone Food and Rural Affairs Committee and, if so wished, is paying 5% or even 3% of their income on their water by the Public Accounts Committee. Government spending bill, they are pretty poor. Some 840,000 households in is also subject to the usual supply and estimates procedures the north-west spend 3% of their income on water, and with which we are all familiar. If the Government 370,000 households spend more than 5% of their net decided to use this power to provide further support, I income on water. It is United Utilities that is telling me would fully expect Members to scrutinise the case and that company social tariffs will not work in the north-west; to ensure that assistance was given only where and for we therefore need national action on social tariffs. as long as it was right to do so. Water debt is just part of the problem facing so many low-paid people. In my constituency, people are dependent I draw to the attention of the hon. Member for Luton on food handouts, are losing their homes and are unable South (Gavin Shuker) the fact that new clause 154A(1) to heat their homes or pay their water bills. Very poor within clause 1 focuses on an “English undertaker” and people are paying the price for global economic failure. a “licensed water supplier”. We have to accept that there Let me finish by asking a few questions. Will a water is not a lot of money floating around in Government at Bill be announced in the Queen’s Speech and will we see the moment—I am sure he recognises that—and so the action on this in the next Session of Parliament? If not, idea that the Government are going to start sloshing will the Government do something on a national social money around freely without any public debate is absolutely tariff? ridiculous. One must also accept that that would be the 277 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 278 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Richard Benyon] local circumstances. If hon. Members intend that all private water companies should be forced to introduce a case in future. We do not know what the future holds, centrally imposed social tariff scheme, I cannot support but we want future Secretaries of State to be able to use the introduction of that regulatory burden. the power where genuinely necessary. We therefore do not think the amendment is necessary. The Government Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): The shadow are not going to start doling out money to water companies Secretary of State said that she did not wish to take the on a whim. We are using this power this time after years credit for some of the amendments because they were of debate, but it is unimaginable that any future use of the initiative of Ofwat. Having looked through Ofwat’s the power would not attract the same level of debate. response to DEFRA’s consultation on company social tariffs, I think the amendments all came from Ofwat, In a similar vein, new clause 1 would threaten the apart from the question of what concessions to offer. action we are taking to deal with wider affordability Ofwat says that it supports the view in the draft guidance problems. I point out that we will have the opportunity that it is preferable that the companies themselves should to develop the House’s thinking on this with the water design concessions that best suit their customers’ needs. Bill. I know that the Bill is eagerly sought by Members It says this so that companies, rather than the Government, on both sides to take forward many of the issues we set will have greater scope to innovate, which I think the out in the White Paper, which have been the subject of Minister is saying too. past reports to the Government. The Government have given a clear commitment that the Bill will be available Richard Benyon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for for proper and full pre-legislative scrutiny and I hope making that point. It shows when one prays in aid an that we will be able to publish it soon. Whether or not it organisation, one has to do so in the context of all the is in the Queen’s Speech is not a matter for me. evidence that has been given by it to many organisations, not least a Select Committee of the House. Julie Hilling: May I press the Minister a little more on We want companies to be imaginative in the way they this? When he says “soon” does he mean in the next tackle affordability in their areas, not to force them into Session or the Session after that? a straitjacket. Our guidance will not dictate eligibility criteria, the level of concession or the amount of cross- Richard Benyon: The hon. Lady will understand that subsidy. It will give companies the freedom to make I am not privy to what is in the Queen’s Speech. I very judgments, with their customers, on what can work much want a water Bill as soon as possible, but we have in their areas. This addresses the point made by my given a commitment that the Bill will be available for hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton pre-legislative scrutiny, and that is not something that (Miss McIntosh). Social tariffs are a new tool in the happens overnight—it requires a process and it would tool-kit for companies, but they are not the only tool. be tight to get in the full level of pre-legislative scrutiny Companies have many other effective tools—for example, and a Bill in the next Session. However, I accept her win-win tariffs, which are self-funding from savings on point that it is needed by many people as quickly as bad debt and do not rely on cross-subsidies. They have possible. trust funds, as has been mentioned, which are set up by We know that some households in the south-west and the company to pay off the debts of those most in need, other regions—let me reiterate that other regions are as well as payment plans and referrals to holistic debt also affected—struggle with their water and sewerage agencies such as Citizens Advice, arrangements made charges. We will soon be issuing guidance that will allow locally that really work. for the development of company social tariffs. Water We must not see a social tariff as the only show in companies will be able to reduce the charges of customers town. There are no state secrets here. The information who would otherwise have difficulty paying in full. In from water companies about the social tariffs that they consultation with their customers, companies will decide develop will be produced in negotiation with DEFRA, who needs help in their area and then design local working on the guidance that we will publish in a few solutions to address local circumstances. Water companies weeks. The proposals from the water companies and the know their customers and local circumstances. Companies decisions that DEFRA makes will be available for scrutiny. vary in size and customer base, and average bills also vary from company to company. On Second Reading, Alison Seabeck: This is slightly tangential. The companies Members spoke about the different kinds of affordability are working to tackle unaffordable water charges, but problems faced by their constituents. They also recognised there is one thing that they probably cannot deal with, that in some parts of the country there might be less which was mentioned on Second Reading by one of the scope than in others for customers to cross-subsidise Minister’s colleagues and by me. Once the £50 payment others in the region. I urge hon. Members to consider comes through the system, which will help most people the Cholderton company, which serves only about 2,000 on low incomes, the companies will not be able to people. The difficulty of having a nationally mandated guarantee that it goes to the person who pays the bill. tariff that would apply to that company as well as to Instead of going to the vulnerable party, the money Thames Water, which has several million customers, may be going to a park home owner who is not reputable accentuates the problem. or a private landlord. What discussions has the Minister had, perhaps with the Ministry of Justice, about whether Imposing one-size-fits-all standards, as new clause 1 it would be a criminal offence—a fraud—if the park would require, on companies that decide to develop home owner did not pass the money on? social tariffs would prevent them from reflecting the circumstances of their customer base and what their Richard Benyon: The hon. Lady could lead me down customers want. Some companies might be less likely to a long path of personal on this subject, which I am introduce social tariffs if the model did not suit their happy to share with the Committee. I have a number of 279 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 280 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill park homes in my constituency. Some are well run. It is assurance at this stage, but I will go back through a style of living that we across the House should encourage Hansard. I thought it was pretty clear from what he said because it allows people at a certain age to release some that a national water affordability scheme was ruled capital and live in a smaller dwelling surrounded by out. We believe that that is the wrong approach and that people in similar circumstances, but there are too many work can be done. If provision is not made in this Bill, park home owners who are appalling human beings. we would like to engage with the Minister and work Various Governments, including this Government and collaboratively to try and find a way to respond to the the Government whom the hon. Lady supported, have concerns of the hon. Member for North Cornwall (Dan sought to address this. I am working with my hon. Rogerson), who raised the possibility of such a scheme, Friends in the Department for Communities and Local as we have done on previous occasions. Government to ensure that the alternative arrangements The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) that the Government are making for park homes will be asked about the opinions of the water companies. In my fit for purpose. experience, the water companies would like a level playing I thank the Committee for that bit of therapy. I can field. It is clear to me that in new clause 1 we do not ask assure the hon. Lady that we intend the £50 to get to for a one-size-fits-all solution, as the Minister described precisely the people whom she describes. I am happy to it. We simply ask that at the same time as the south-west talk to anyone. In my Department we are keen to make receives the benefits of the Bill, the whole country sure that that money is not siphoned off by anybody should receive the benefits of a set of mandatory minimum and gets to the householder, even if that householder is standards for those tariffs. We do not even require water a park home owner on a site owned by somebody else. companies to introduce the social tariffs, but when those are introduced, we ask that they be effective—that they 1.45 pm are not just based on guidance, but that the House has I shall outline some of the other measures available the right to weigh in on what they should be. My hon. to water companies. We are working to make sure that Friend the Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) dealt the issue is looked at holistically. We do not believe that with issues of national water affordability. She is a social tariffs are the only method of addressing affordability. strong advocate on behalf of her constituency. All these methods are in addition to the existing statutory In conclusion, despite my sympathy for the Minister, WaterSure scheme which provides a safety net for the I intend to press amendment 1 to a Division. most vulnerable customers. We fully expect different Question put, That the amendment be made. companies to use these tools in different ways, and make no apologies for that. The Committee divided: Ayes 200, Noes 263. It remains the case that most water bills are not high Division No. 491] [1.48 pm in comparison with other household costs, such as energy bills. Customers struggling with water charges AYES are likely to be struggling with other living costs. The Abbott, Ms Diane Corbyn, Jeremy Government have other measures in place to tackle the Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Crausby, Mr David broader problem of low incomes. Universal credit will Alexander, Heidi Creagh, Mary make work pay and combat worklessness and poverty. Ali, Rushanara Creasy, Stella Our social tariff guidance will say that we expect companies Anderson, Mr David Cryer, John Austin, Ian Cunningham, Alex to keep their social tariffs under review and work with Bailey, Mr Adrian Cunningham, Mr Jim Ofwat on how best to do this. Bain, Mr William Cunningham, Tony We do not propose to require the kind of annual Balls, rh Ed Curran, Margaret reporting suggested in new clause 1, which would be Banks, Gordon Danczuk, Simon just the sort of regulatory burden that David Gray’s Barron, rh Mr Kevin Darling, rh Mr Alistair recent review of Ofwat warned the regulator away from. Bell, Sir Stuart David, Mr Wayne Ofwat already has a primary duty to protect the interests Benn, rh Hilary Davidson, Mr Ian of consumers and will act in their best interests. A Berger, Luciana Davies, Geraint league table would also fail to show the real picture on Blackman-Woods, Roberta De Piero, Gloria the ground. The measures of 3% and 5% of a household’s Blears, rh Hazel Dobbin, Jim Blomﬁeld, Paul Dobson, rh Frank disposable income are useful indicators of risk, but they Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Docherty, Thomas are not absolute measures of the number of households Brennan, Kevin Dodds, rh Mr Nigel struggling to pay their bills. In short, therefore, we think Buck, Ms Karen Donohoe, Mr Brian H. that enabling companies to work with their customers Burden, Richard Doran, Mr Frank to design schemes best suited for their area is a much Burnham, rh Andy Doyle, Gemma better solution. I therefore ask hon. Members to withdraw Campbell, Mr Alan Dromey, Jack their amendments. Campbell, Mr Gregory Durkan, Mark Campbell, Mr Ronnie Eagle, Ms Angela Gavin Shuker: The Minister was articulate and charming, Caton, Martin Eagle, Maria but his argument was unconvincing. I am sorry to say Chapman, Mrs Jenny Elliott, Julie that because I have a great deal of sympathy for him Clark, Katy Ellman, Mrs Louise and his position. This is a short Bill and the Government Clarke, rh Mr Tom Engel, Natascha want to get it through quickly and cleanly, but we Clwyd, rh Ann Esterson, Bill Coaker, Vernon Evans, Chris believe our amendments serve a useful purpose. Coffey, Ann Farrelly, Paul The Minister clearly ruled out the possibility of a Connarty, Michael Field, rh Mr Frank national water affordability scheme. I think I am right Cooper, Rosie Fitzpatrick, Jim in saying that. The Minister is not willing to give that Cooper, rh Yvette Flello, Robert 281 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 282 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Flint, rh Caroline Morris, Grahame M. Amess, Mr David Francois, rh Mr Mark Flynn, Paul (Easington) Andrew, Stuart Freeman, George Fovargue, Yvonne Mudie, Mr George Bacon, Mr Richard Freer, Mike Francis, Dr Hywel Munn, Meg Baker, Steve Fullbrook, Lorraine Gardiner, Barry Murphy, rh Mr Jim Baldry, Tony Garnier, Mr Edward Gilmore, Sheila Murphy, rh Paul Baldwin, Harriett Garnier, Mark Glass, Pat Murray, Ian Barclay, Stephen Gauke, Mr David Glindon, Mrs Mary Nandy, Lisa Barker, Gregory George, Andrew Goggins, rh Paul Nash, Pamela Baron, Mr John Gibb, Mr Nick Goodman, Helen O’Donnell, Fiona Barwell, Gavin Gilbert, Stephen Green, Kate Onwurah, Chi Bebb, Guto Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Griffith, Nia Owen, Albert Beith, rh Sir Alan Goldsmith, Zac Gwynne, Andrew Paisley, Ian Bellingham, Mr Henry Goodwill, Mr Robert Hamilton, Mr David Pearce, Teresa Benyon, Richard Gove, rh Michael Hamilton, Fabian Pound, Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Grant, Mrs Helen Hanson, rh Mr David Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Berry, Jake Gray, Mr James Harman, rh Ms Harriet Reed, Mr Jamie Bingham, Andrew Grayling, rh Chris Healey, rh John Reeves, Rachel Birtwistle, Gordon Green, Damian Hendrick, Mark Reynolds, Emma Blackman, Bob Greening, rh Justine Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reynolds, Jonathan Blackwood, Nicola Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Heyes, David Riordan, Mrs Linda Boles, Nick Griffiths, Andrew Hillier, Meg Robertson, John Bone, Mr Peter Gummer, Ben Hilling, Julie Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bottomley, Sir Peter Gyimah, Mr Sam Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Roy, Mr Frank Brady, Mr Graham Halfon, Robert Hopkins, Kelvin Roy, Lindsay Bray, Angie Hames, Duncan Howarth, rh Mr George Ruane, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Hammond, Stephen Hunt, Tristram Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Brine, Steve Hands, Greg Irranca-Davies, Huw Sarwar, Anas Brokenshire, James Harris, Rebecca James, Mrs Siân C. Seabeck, Alison Bruce, Fiona Hart, Simon Jamieson, Cathy Shannon, Jim Buckland, Mr Robert Heald, Oliver Jarvis, Dan Sharma, Mr Virendra Burley, Mr Aidan Heath, Mr David Johnson, Diana Sheridan, Jim Burns, Conor Heaton-Harris, Chris Jones, Graham Shuker, Gavin Burrowes, Mr David Hemming, John Jones, Helen Simpson, David Burt, Lorely Henderson, Gordon Jones, Mr Kevan Skinner, Mr Dennis Byles, Dan Hinds, Damian Jones, Susan Elan Slaughter, Mr Andy Cairns, Alun Hoban, Mr Mark Jowell, rh Tessa Smith, rh Mr Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hollingbery, George Joyce, Eric Smith, Angela Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hollobone, Mr Philip Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Smith, Nick Carmichael, Neil Holloway, Mr Adam Keeley, Barbara Spellar, rh Mr John Carswell, Mr Douglas Hopkins, Kris Kendall, Liz Straw, rh Mr Jack Cash, Mr William Horwood, Martin Lavery, Ian Stringer, Graham Chishti, Rehman Howell, John Lazarowicz, Mark Stuart, Ms Gisela Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hughes, rh Simon Lloyd, Tony Tami, Mark Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hunter, Mark Long, Naomi Thomas, Mr Gareth Collins, Damian Huppert, Dr Julian Love, Mr Andrew Thornberry, Emily Colvile, Oliver Hurd, Mr Nick Lucas, Caroline Timms, rh Stephen Cox, Mr Geoffrey Jackson, Mr Stewart MacShane, rh Mr Denis Trickett, Jon Crabb, Stephen Javid, Sajid Mactaggart, Fiona Turner, Karl Crouch, Tracey Jenkin, Mr Bernard Mahmood, Shabana Twigg, Derek Davey, rh Mr Edward Johnson, Gareth Mann, John Umunna, Mr Chuka Davies, David T. C. Johnson, Joseph Marsden, Mr Gordon Walley, Joan (Monmouth) Jones, Andrew McCabe, Steve Watts, Mr Dave Davies, Glyn Jones, Mr David McCarthy, Kerry Whitehead, Dr Alan de Bois, Nick Jones, Mr Marcus McClymont, Gregg Wicks, rh Malcolm Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel McCrea, Dr William Williams, Hywel Dorries, Nadine Kelly, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Williamson, Chris Doyle-Price, Jackie Knight, rh Mr Greg McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Wilson, Phil Drax, Richard Laing, Mrs Eleanor McKechin, Ann Winnick, Mr David Duncan, rh Mr Alan Lamb, Norman McKenzie, Mr Iain Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Dunne, Mr Philip Lansley, rh Mr Andrew McKinnell, Catherine Wood, Mike Ellis, Michael Leadsom, Andrea Mearns, Ian Woodcock, John Ellison, Jane Lee, Jessica Michael, rh Alun Wright, David Ellwood, Mr Tobias Lee, Dr Phillip Miliband, rh David Wright, Mr Iain Elphicke, Charlie Leech, Mr John Miller, Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Evans, Graham Leigh, Mr Edward Morden, Jessica Lyn Brown and Evans, Jonathan Leslie, Charlotte Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Tom Blenkinsop Evennett, Mr David Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Fabricant, Michael Lewis, Brandon NOES Fallon, Michael Lewis, Dr Julian Field, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Adams, Nigel Aldous, Peter Foster, rh Mr Don Lilley, rh Mr Peter Afriyie, Adam Alexander, rh Danny Fox,rhDrLiam Lloyd, Stephen 283 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 284 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok ‘(5A) Financial assistance may only be given under Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec subsection (1) if the financing of the infrastructure is being Loughton, Tim Shepherd, Mr Richard secured by a group company which has adopted the equator Lumley, Karen Simmonds, Mark principles.’. Macleod, Mary Skidmore, Chris Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Miss Chloe The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: McCartney, Jason Smith, Julian Amendment 5, page 3, line 3, at end insert— McCartney, Karl Smith, Sir Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Soames, rh Nicholas ‘(5A) Financial assistance must not be given to any company McPartland, Stephen Soubry, Anna which has a debt to equity ratio of more than 65%.’. McVey, Esther Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Amendment 10, page 3, line 3, at end insert— Mensch, Louise Spencer, Mr Mark ‘(5A) The Secretary of State may only grant financial Menzies, Mark Stanley, rh Sir John assistance after a business plan for the proposed infrastructure Mercer, Patrick Stephenson, Andrew has been approved by Ofwat and the National Audit Office. Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Miller, Maria Stewart, Iain (5B) The business plan must demonstrate that the company Mills, Nigel Stewart, Rory carrying out the infrastructure has adequate capital resources to complete the infrastructure project.’. Morgan, Nicky Streeter, Mr Gary Morris, Anne Marie Stride, Mel Morris, David Stuart, Mr Graham Simon Hughes: This issue is of significant interest to Morris, James Sturdy, Julian those of us who live in the Thames Water area. Some Mosley, Stephen Swales, Ian 20% of the population of the United Kingdom do, so it Mowat, David Swayne, rh Mr Desmond is not an irrelevant issue to people across the country Munt, Tessa Swinson, Jo who pay water rates. Specifically, I am talking about Murray, Sheryll Swire, rh Mr Hugo colleagues who have constituencies in Gloucestershire, Murrison, Dr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Northamptonshire, Essex, Kent, Hampshire and Greater Newton, Sarah Tapsell, rh Sir Peter London, and the issue raises broader questions about Nuttall, Mr David Teather, Sarah how the Government and Ofwat, the regulator, deal O’Brien, Mr Stephen Thurso, John with water companies, their financing and, specifically, Offord, Mr Matthew Tomlinson, Justin the financing of major projects. Ollerenshaw, Eric Tredinnick, David Paice, rh Mr James Truss, Elizabeth I shall make some preliminary comments that relate Parish, Neil Turner, Mr Andrew to all three amendments. I am grateful to the Minister Patel, Priti Tyrie, Mr Andrew and to the Secretary of State for engaging on the issue; I Paterson, rh Mr Owen Uppal, Paul am grateful for the engagement on Second Reading; Pawsey, Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh and I am grateful for the correspondence that I have Percy, Andrew Vickers, Martin had with the Secretary of State since Second Reading. I Perry, Claire Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa shall refer to that and read some of it into the record. Pickles, rh Mr Eric Walker, Mr Charles Pincher, Christopher Wallace, Mr Ben First, in parts of London and, certainly, in my Poulter, Dr Daniel Weatherley, Mike constituency, one of the most significant current debates Prisk, Mr Mark Webb, Steve is about whether there will be a Thames tunnel, and Pritchard, Mark Wharton, James Thames Water’s proposal is that to address the current Pugh, John Wheeler, Heather system’s inefficiency and inability to deal with London’s Reckless, Mark Whittaker, Craig sewage, understandably because the system was created Redwood, rh Mr John Wiggin, Bill in the Victorian era, new infrastructure—a main sewer, Rees-Mogg, Jacob Willetts, rh Mr David in effect—needs to be built to cope with current and Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Mr Mark future needs. Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Williams, Roger There is an ongoing debate, which I do not propose Rogerson, Dan Williams, Stephen to get into today, about whether the current plan for the Rosindell, Andrew Williamson, Gavin Rudd, Amber proposed tunnel is the right answer. In summary, sewage Wollaston, Dr Sarah capacity is already being built to the east of London, in Ruffley, Mr David Wright, Jeremy Russell, Sir Bob the Lee valley; and there is a proposal—the projected Yeo, Mr Tim Rutley, David costs of which have risen to £4.1 billion—for a long Young, rh Sir George Sandys, Laura tunnel, travelling from west London not far from here, Scott, Mr Lee Tellers for the Noes: along my constituency and ending up at the sewage Selous, Andrew Jenny Willott and treatment works in east London. Shapps, rh Grant James Duddridge Some people say that the only solution is the currently proposed tunnel; others say that it would be better to Question accordingly negatived. have a shorter tunnel and some other forms of sewage Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill. alleviation. That debate is ongoing, but in the end decisions will have to be made. There is a whole planning Clause 2 process for deciding whether the tunnel will be built.

FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE FOR MAJOR WORKS Secondly, there is a debate—in constituencies such as mine and in boroughs such as Hammersmith and Fulham, 2pm and Wandsworth—about where, if there is to be a Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) tunnel, the main sites of activity should be. In the (LD): I beg to move amendment 4, page 3, line 3, at end middle of Bermondsey, a very large site is proposed for insert— drilling down to create the shaft from which the tunnel 285 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 286 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Simon Hughes] the basis of that debt to equity ratio? Presumably, assistance will come in different tranches, so any group boring will happen, both west and east, at a place called company’s activity might at various times fall on either Chambers wharf. In the first round of consultation, the side of any category that the right hon. Gentleman has proposed site was King’s Stairs gardens, by the Rotherhithe in mind, and any assistance might be for a specific tunnel. That is a greenfield site, and the proposal was project in different tranches. Does he not feel that his not at all popular. We have managed to persuade Thames amendment would over-complicate what he is trying to Water that that is not a good idea, but there is a tale of achieve? Will he detail precisely how he thinks it would unexpected, or unwished-for consequences, because having operate? won a battle to save one site we then found that the company came up with another site next door, taking Simon Hughes: Some of this is quite technical, but the pressure off one community but immediately these are important issues. The reason I chose that transferring it not far away. That is a separate debate, figure, which is not a matter of precise science but a and I do not propose today to get into the detail of starting point for debate, is a Financial Times article in where the sites should be. I see my constituency neighbour 2006 suggesting that Ofwat’s expectation was that gearing and colleague, the hon. Member for Cities of London levels for Thames Water should remain below 65% for and Westminster (Mark Field) in the Chamber, and any project. There was then a debate, in public, between many of us have a constituency interest—big and small—in Thames Water and its owners—they have a history in where the sites should be. this matter—and the regulator as to what the percentages The third issue—the issue of the Bill—is whether the of borrowing against capital, borrowing against income, Government should, if necessary, provide financial support and borrowing against profits should be. The company to Thames Water for such a project, and if so the terms should have sufficient capital to fund the project and and conditions under which it should be granted. Clause 2, should not be giving away its capital by way of dividends which all my amendments would change, is entitled such that it has to look elsewhere for funding that it “Financial assistance for major works”. I shall not read could have had if it had not been paying out capital that it all into the record, as people can turn to it, but it it had acquired previously from its investments. proposes the insertion into the Water Industry Act 1991 of a new provision, section 154B, of which I shall read Mark Field: The right hon. Gentleman will be aware the first proposed subsection: that Thames Water is looking to secure a large-scale “If the Secretary of State considers it desirable to do so, the investment from a Chinese sovereign wealth fund. Is he Secretary of State may give financial assistance in connection concerned that such an investment—this is a specific with—(a) the construction of water or sewerage infrastructure, or case, but it could apply generally to anyone who was (b) the carrying out of works in respect of existing water or getting such financial assistance—would help to distort, sewerage infrastructure.” and could, at particular levels of investment, deliberately In further proposed subsections, there are various distort the debt to equity ratio in such a way as to conditions, one of which is: negate any benefit created by the provision that he “Financial assistance may be given in any form and in particular hopes to put into the Bill? maybegivenbywayof—…grant…loan…guarantee…indemnity…the provision of insurance, or…the acquisition of shares in or securities Simon Hughes: As the hon. Gentleman knows, Thames of a body corporate.” Water has a very complicated corporate structure: the My first amendment, amendment 4, proposes: graphic picture shows that there are about 10 layers of “Financial assistance may only given under subsection (1) if corporate entities. At the top are investors Macquarie—an the financing of the infrastructure is being secured by a group Australian company—and the new Chinese investor company which has adopted the equator principles.” that was recently announced when the Chancellor was I shall come back to that. in China, and there have been other acquisitions. Secondly, I want to test the Government’s reaction to We must not prevent Thames Water and its holding amendment 5 and my proposal: company, and its holding companies, from obtaining “Financial assistance must not be given to any company which money from external investors; indeed, we need to has a debt to equity ratio of more than 65%.” encourage that. However, we, the Government and Ofwat must ensure that we do not condone, particularly in That precise figure is relevant, but there is a much relation to Kemble Water, which is the relevant driving bigger issue about what the financial past and present company, and Macquarie, a practice that is unacceptable of a company should be if it is to receive Government in two respects. First, it allows the company to pay out support. in dividends to its shareholders very large profits while My third amendment, amendment 10, states: not retaining the money that it needs for its capital “The Secretary of State may only grant financial assistance investment, thereby forcing it to come to Government after a business plan for the proposal infrastructure has been and, in turn, to the taxpayer, to underwrite something approved by Ofwat”— for which it should not have had to come to the taxpayer. the regulator— Secondly, these processes should not result in our corporate “and the National Audit Office…The business plan must demonstrate sector avoiding the taxes that we would expect it to pay. that the company carrying out the infrastructure has adequate One of the issues for next week’s Budget is the need to capital resources to complete the…project.” ensure that people, personally and corporately, who can afford to pay their due taxes do pay those taxes. There Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): has recently been a pretty unpleasant history regarding I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman’s debate is Kemble, Macquarie and Thames Water whereby people not entirely abstract, but on amendment 5 how would have paid far less tax than the hon. Member for Cities the Government be able to judge financial assistance on of London and Westminster (Mark Field) and I would 287 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 288 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill believe to be acceptable. They have been using various Gentleman for making clear his concerns. I hope that onshore and offshore mechanisms to avoid tax liabilities he and I will both speak on Monday in the debate on involving money that should have come back into the the Government’s waste water national policy statement, Treasury to the general benefit of the taxpayer. specifically on the issues relating to the Thames tunnel, Ofwat has said that on the previous two occasions which concern many of us as Members of Parliament. when it carried out price reviews, it assumed, for the It is rather distressing that a very small minority of us purpose of setting price limits, a gearing within the seem to be concerned about this, yet no fewer than range of 55% to 65%. It worked from that starting 144 Members, many of whose constituencies are well point, although it was simply an assumption for the outside London, but none the less within the Thames purpose of price setting, not a requirement. My suggested Water area, will be directly affected by the huge and figure is therefore also a starting point to see whether ongoing increases in bills to which he refers. we should write in a figure that requires a balance between payment out of dividends and the retention Simon Hughes: I am not pretending that we are of capital and earnings to ensure that there is no abuse hugely disadvantaged in the Thames Water area at the of the relationship with the taxpayer, to the detriment moment. My colleagues in the south-west and their of the consumer. constituents have had hugely greater bills over very many years. I am not arguing that we should not have to At the end of the day, this is about the level of water pay more money as Thames Water ratepayers, but that bills for people in the Thames Water area. The current if we are going to do so, we should be paying it for a projection is that as a result of the Thames tunnel project, if it is agreed, where we know that the taxpayer project, bills will rise by about £80 a year indefinitely. I is not being fleeced and water rate payers are not paying do not want Thames Water to charge every ratepayer more than they should be. This must not be seen as a roughly £80 a year extra and, at the same time, not pay method for allowing private sector companies—all the much money into the Treasury by way of tax and water companies are now, in effect, private sector indefinitely siphon off huge amounts of profits to national companies—to export profits indefinitely, at a higher or extra-national investors while we are paying for level than they ought to, when they should be putting something that we ultimately do not own. There are that money into the project and making sure that bills parallels in the history of the private finance initiative are lower. regarding public sector investment in projects where the money then goes off into the private sector. The M6 toll Andrew George: Bearing in mind that the probity or road, in which Macquarie had an interest, has not been otherwise of Thames Water is outwith the purpose of a happy tale of investment benefiting taxpayer and the Bill, would my right hon. Friend care to comment users, with some people apparently creaming off the on the fact that, as I understand it, Thames Water profit to the disadvantage of those taxpayers and users. might not undertake this project and that the question then arises of what happens to the asset, which is the Dan Rogerson: My right hon. Friend has set out a tunnel? Surely that is the key issue, and then there is the number of measures relating to safeguarding public separate issue of the probity, management and proper investment. Is it fair to say that he is seeking to bring a regulation of Thames Water as a company. far greater level of transparency where matters are a little opaque, particularly because we might see an Simon Hughes: My hon. Friend is right. Perhaps it emerging relationship between private companies and would helpful if, rather than trying to go round the levels of public subsidy, and that makes the need for circuit twice, I quickly summarise my letter to the transparency paramount? Secretary of State in which I set out my concerns and the history of the matter, summarise the key points of 2.15 pm her response, which deal exactly with my hon. Friend’s point about the mechanism regarding the tunnel, and Simon Hughes: That is exactly the position. I want us then raise the three specific issues that should be addressed to address this now and not to discover, when the before colleagues and the Minister speak. system gives planning permission for this big project, that we have a corporate financial structure that is not The provisions could, of course, apply to any water going to work for the interests of the water rate payer or company. I am talking about Thames Water because we the taxpayer. I have a double interest on behalf of the know that the Thames tunnel is the big project that the water rate payers of the Thames Water area—144 colleagues Government have in mind. However, the Bill relates not represent people in that position—and on behalf of the just to Thames Water, but to financial assistance for taxpayer. I want to ensure that we are not shelling out major works by any water company throughout the money when we should not be doing so and the private country, so the issues could relate to any constituency sector should be picking up the tab. Transparency is across the United Kingdom. hugely important, and it is not helped by a corporate I will give a brief history. Thames Water was previously structure that has 10 layers of involvement where it is owned by the German utility company RWE. As I well not clear who owns what, and where one of the layers at remember, at that time it had one of the worst records the bottom appears to be based in the Cayman Islands. for leaks and failed to meet its agreed targets for remedying That is not a place where I thought that we were leaks for four consecutive years. Despite that, RWE encouraging schemes that we, as taxpayers, were supporting raised the dividend that Thames Water paid out to the financially. company by 52%, took £216 million from the company and simultaneously announced a rise in profits as it Mark Field: There is plenty of water around the prepared to sell the company on. At that time, Thames Cayman Islands, but that may not be entirely what Water had a debt to capital ratio of about 45% and an Thames Water had in mind. I thank the right hon. excellent credit rating with all the major rating agencies. 289 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 290 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Simon Hughes] saddling the company with debt. Ofwat has stated that that is acceptable because the company has kept its Thames Water was bought by Kemble Water in 2006 investment grade credit rating. In fact, the credit rating in a deal worth £8 billion. Kemble Water is a financial has deteriorated to the lowest investment grade possible. vehicle for a consortium of investors, primarily made Ofwat appears to have neglected the need for the company up of private equity funds led by Macquarie, the Australian to incur more debt in the future to pay for large capital bank. The deal included £3.2 billion of debt, which was investments. incorporated into the company through whole company I am troubled that, unless we amend the Bill, there securitisation. That was undertaken for a special purpose will be nothing to prevent that behaviour from continuing. finance company that Thames Water set up in the I am trying to make the Government address how we Cayman Islands, presumably to allow the owners of will prevent it. I do not propose to force the amendment Thames Water to avoid taxes on the income that they to a vote, but I want to hear the input of Members, if received from the interest raised. That increased the they want to contribute, and the Minister’s response. I debt ratio sharply to 67.9% of regulated capital value. am keen to ensure that we do not let go of this matter. The company has continued to borrow heavily and the My constituents want me to raise it now and the constituents debt to capital ratio has now increased to 72.9%. of many colleagues in London have an equally strong That has happened at a time when Thames Water has vested interest in it. paid extremely high dividends, which have regularly exceeded its earnings. For example, in 2010, the ratio Mark Field: It is important that we do not just see was 141.5%. In other words, it paid out in dividends this as a problem with Thames Water. This is a fundamental nearly one and a half times as much as it received in issue about the financial structuring of a range of earnings. By contrast, South East Water, to take another companies, many of which are getting ongoing financial local example, had a payout ratio of 48%—just a third assistance from PFI schemes, which often have years or of that of Thames Water. That strategy has had a decades to run. The right hon. Gentleman has made it serious detrimental effect on Thames Water’s credit clear that he will not press the amendment to a vote. I rating. It has fallen from a corporate credit rating of A hope, however, that not only this Department, but other plus on the Standard & Poor’s rating scale when the Departments that have responsibility for companies company was bought by RWE in 2000 to a position that have gone through this sort of financial restructuring today in which some of Thames Water’s debts have and that are receiving ongoing financial assistance give been assigned a triple B rating, which is considered to serious thought to the matter. be the lowest investment grade rating possible. Simon Hughes: That point is very helpful. I have For 10 years, Thames Water has been owned by two raised this subject as a matter of general Government companies that have sought to extract the maximum policy with my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to possible value from the company. It has prioritised that the Treasury, because it is not just an issue for the over the necessary prudential financial arrangements Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, that would have allowed it to make the large, long-term but an issue across Government and for the Treasury in capital investments that it knows it has to make. As a particular. It is also a matter for the Public Accounts result, Thames Water no longer has the capacity to Committee, audit organisations and others. In a second, access the finance required to make large infrastructure I will link the points that I have made with the PFI investments. It is not as if this project is a new idea. It issue, which my hon. Friend just raised, and other has been, excuse the pun, in the pipeline for a long time. places where we are spending public money on projects The company has therefore asked the Government to that are excessively encouraging or facilitating private provide financial backing for its Thames tunnel scheme. gain to the disadvantage of the state and the taxpayer. It is not yet clear to me why our Government should help this company after its years of excessive and unjustified Dan Rogerson: My right hon. Friend is making some borrowing and extraordinary dividend payments, which excellent points and shedding a little light on fairly have eroded the company’s capital position. At the end shady areas of corporate restructuring. Sports fans are of the Second Reading debate, the Minister said that well aware of such things going on at their beloved the financial arrangements of the company are a matter sports clubs. He referred to Ofwat’s handling of the for the regulator, Ofwat. That is in part true, but Parliament situation over a number of years. He has clearly raised certainly has an interest and the Government must have the matter with the Department. In his scrutiny of these an interest. If Ofwat’s controls are not sufficient, we affairs, has he received any response from Ofwat on why need to address that. That is why I have raised this it has not taken action up to now? matter in the amendments. Before the sale of Thames Water by RWE, Ofwat Simon Hughes: I have sought from Ofwat an explanation made a clear statement warning potential investors not of its current policy. I have not sat down with Ofwat to to follow the very strategy that Kemble Water has since go through what more it might do. I want to raise the followed. Ofwat said that potential bidders should preserve matter here and see what colleagues think. There is a Thames Water’s investment grade credit rating, which debate to be had about Ofwat and I hope that changes would have meant keeping the company’s debt to capital in what Ofwat does and how it behaves will come out of ratio below 65%. That is the link between solvency, it. These issues also relate to other regulators, such as external financial respect for the company and the those for gas and electricity. This is an issue about percentage ratio, which my hon. Friend the Member for regulators and private utilities. Cities of London and Westminster raised with me earlier. The Secretary of State kindly replied to me, as the Since then, the regulator has, in effect, stood by and Minister knows. I will quote the key points from her done nothing to prevent Kemble Water from further letter that responds to the issues that I have raised in 291 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 292 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Committee. The first matter relates to the point made “The publicly available Regulated Accounts of Thames Water by my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew Utilities Limited show that the only year in which Thames Water George): paid out unusually high dividends was in 2006-07 following the capital restructuring. In 2010 for example…the dividend paid out “I would first like to point out that it may not be Thames was a total of £307.9 million…covered by profits after tax at Water Utilities Limited who carry out the project. We have £331 million.” consulted on provisions that would enable the project to be delivered by a separate Infrastructure Provider to be regulated by It paid out in dividends nearly as much as it received in Ofwat separately from Thames Water Utilities Limited. Any profits—just £30 million short. In the previous year, contingent financial support will be directed at assisting the entity 2009, the dividend paid out was £222 million and the that is building the Tunnel—and so not necessarily Thames Water profits after tax were £314 million. That was obviously Utilities Limited.” a more healthy balance. I understand that. It does not change things, but it is important to realise that although Thames Water may Mark Field: While the right hon. Gentleman is going be the supplicant, it may not be Thames Water that through the financial figures, it would be useful to know does the building. what the level of reserves was during those years. Were The Secretary of State continued: they building up, or had Thames Water, in its own “The level of gearing and the securitised structure of Thames mind, already built up a war chest for the works that it Water Utilities Limited is similar to that of some other water is looking to do—or was it essentially draining its companies. Our and Ofwat’s analysis shows that contingent profits by more than 90% year on year? financial support from government would be required for Thames Water Utilities Limited (or any other water company) to build a single project of the scale and complexity of the Tunnel Simon Hughes: I do not want to misrepresent the whatever its financial structure (within the norms for water position, and I do not have with me the full accounts companies).” over those five years—the Minister may be able to help I do not dispute that. I am not denying that this is a very us with that—but my understanding is that the reserves big project, or that it may need the reassurance that have reduced over that five-year period. That is one comes from being supported nationally, rather than just reason for my concern about the balance of decisions being the project of a regional water company. on dividend payments and capital retention. That should The Secretary of State went on: trouble us and cause us to ask questions. “Our goal is to ensure that the level of this contingent financial The figures that I have show that 2008 and 2009 were support is kept to a minimum and that we achieve best value for the only recent years in which dividends did not exceed money for customers.” profits. I understand that in 2010 there were £295 million Amen to both of those things. We all have the same of dividends and £237 million of profit after tax. Probably objectives. She continued: 30% or 40% more was paid out in dividends than “It is in that context that we are considering whether the received in income and earnings. Tunnel should be built by the Thames Water Utilities Limited or a The Secretary of State rightly says that Ofwat does separate entity.” not enforce limits on dividend payments. I do not The Secretary of State then discusses the question of dispute that in principle, but she states: where Ofwat’s rules currently bite. She states: “However the licence conditions of each water company’s “Ofwat regulates each water and sewerage company in England licence include a requirement to ensure the dividend policy rewards and Wales under the terms of its Instrument of Appointment…The efficiency and good management of economic risk, and will not licence contains conditions aimed at ensuring that each water and impair the company’s ability to finance its functions as a water sewerage company has sufficient financial and managerial resources undertaker…Ofwat does not place a cap on levels of gearing. to carry out its functions and that the regulated company is Instead, it determines a notional capital structure for an efficiently operated separately from the rest of the group.” financed and operated company for the purposes of setting the That is quite important. She continues: cost of capital and assessing the financeability of the price limit it “These licence conditions are collectively known as the regulatory sets. This approach is consistent with the approach Ofgem has ring-fence. adopted in its regulation of the gas and electricity sectors. In the last two Price Reviews this nominal capital structure assumed It is Ofwat’s view that it is for the management of each that water companies would have gearing”— regulated water company to determine its own optimal financial structure.” the figure that I have mentioned before— Within limits, I do not dissent from that, but it seems to “in the range 55%-65%; this was a modelling assumption and not me that Ofwat is there to hold the reins properly. a requirement. The requirement was that they should maintain an investment grade credit rating, plus some headroom and it is this together with the regulatory ring fence that provides the protection 2.30 pm for customers. Several of the large water and sewerage companies The Secretary of State continues: have a similar gearing ratio of around 80%.” “Where companies have proposed alternative financial structures, I pause there to note that if the licence conditions are including refinancing arrangements which include securitised meant to be about both the ratio and the credit rating, it structures, it”— seems to me that we again have cause for concern. Ofwat— The Secretary of State continues: “has introduced amendments to the regulatory ring-fence to reassure itself and customers that companies remain in a position “The regulatory ring-fence also requires a company to ensure to finance their functions and that consumers’ interests are not that it, or any Associated Company, maintains an issuer credit adversely affected by a company’s capital structure.” rating which is an investment grade rating. If a company’s investment grade is threatened, the cash lock up provision within the licence I could go through the finances of Thames Water means that if a company is placed at the minimum level for since its last purchase in 2006, but I will not, to save the investment grade (i.e. BBB- or equivalent)…the Appointee cannot Committee’s time. Instead, I shall summarise them. The transfer cash or other assets to an Associated Company without Secretary of State confirms: the prior consent of Ofwat.” 293 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 294 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Simon Hughes] assessing and managing environmental and social risk in project finance transactions, which is recognised in Thames Water is moving slowly down towards that this country and around the world. Equator principles position. She continues: financial institutions—there are four eminent ones in “Moody’s provides a corporate family rating of Baa1 to the the UK, Barclays, HSBC, Lloyds and Standard Charters— whole business securitisation that encompasses Thames Water commit to Utilities Limited. Standard & Poor’s do not provide an equivalent “not providing loans to projects where the borrower will not or is rating for whole business securitisations; instead they rate individual unable to comply with their respective social and environmental bonds…These bonds are rated in the range A- to BBB…These policies and procedures that implement” credit ratings are very similar to other water and sewerage companies and provide headroom against the floor for investment grade the equator principles. There are 76 financial institutions credit quality.” in 28 countries that have adopted the principles, covering However, it remains the case that we have seen a drop in more than 70% of international project finance debt in the credit ratings of Thames Water collectively, and emerging markets. If we were to have that accountability some of its activities particularly. That should start mechanism, which would allow communities to have ringing alarm bells with us. redress when companies do not meet environmental The Secretary of State ends: and social norms, that would provide added reassurance that companies involved in financing large infrastructure “Finally, discussions with Thames Water on financing the Tunnel are ongoing. Achieving best value for money for customers projects would uphold high standards. That would apply and safeguarding taxpayers are top priorities for Government”. not just to the water industry but to public financing as I wish to mention two other matters, if I may. I am a whole. conscious that this is a much longer speech than I would My amendment 5 suggests that no financial assistance normally want to make, but I am dealing with all my be given to a company with a debt to equity ratio of amendments together and this is a fairly complex issue. more than 65%. That ratio is a measure of a company’s Ofwat’s statement of its position is that the ring-fencing financial strength and demonstrates how much the company licence conditions require a company to has borrowed against its assets. It has a direct effect on a “conduct its business as if the regulated business were substantially company’s credit rating, and consequently on its ability its sole business” to borrow on the financial markets. I appreciate the and Government will not accept the principle of the amendment today, but they might do so in the other place or in “have adequate financial, and facilities and management resources another way. If they did so, they would send a message to carry out its regulated activities and to confirm each year that it will do so for the following 12 months.” to water companies that if they want Government support to build new infrastructure, they will need to A further condition is that a company must demonstrate that they have the financial strength to be “ensure that its dividend policy will not impair the company’s a credible and reliable partner of the Government. ability to finance its functions”. I am not sure that Thames Water has done that. It That is also the purpose of amendment 10, which seems to me that its dividend policy has impaired its would require any company seeking financial support ability properly to carry out its functions, but it has put to come forward with a business plan. Any bank or it in a position whereby it may not be able to finance on building society would ask that safeguard of any business its own, or principally, a project that it knew it would in our constituencies. They would say, “Show us your want to finance. business plan. We’ll then tell you whether we are willing to lend you the money.” A reputable bank involved in Ofwat states: financing an infrastructure project would demand to “Our long established policy is that it is for each company and see a business plan, but so far, Parliament is being its management to determine a capital structure that is appropriate asked—unless I am corrected by the Minister—to allow for its circumstances. But our view is that if investors choose to the Secretary of State to give financial assistance to adopt highly geared structures, it is right for customers that both those investors and the companies bear the risks associated with water companies, which may include grants, loans, their choice of financial structure.” guarantees, indemnity or equity, without any obligation That is fine, but now the company is coming to the on the Government to seek such guarantees. Government to ask for help to support it. Finally, We should be concerned about that not just because Ofwat states that capital restructuring generally of the recent history of Thames Water, but for the “involves the replacement of equity capital with debt capital. This reason given a moment ago by my hon. Friend the can have a tax benefit. Member for Cities of London and Westminster and Consistent with our view that capital structures are a matter given the history of the private finance initiative. The for the companies, we set the price limits for companies on the previous Government went through a period of giving basis of a notional financial structure for an efficiently operated blanket permission—effectively—to engage in large-scale and financed company”. infrastructure projects financed by PFI, to build hospitals, The Secretary of State also made that point. Ofwat schools and many other things. The Treasury Committee continues: has made it clear that PFI projects often lead to higher “We do not set the cost of capital on the basis of each costs and produce poorer-quality buildings and services. company’s actual capital structure. It has said that those costs are eventually borne by the However, in setting price limits, we separate the treatment of taxpayer, and that PFI projects were unacceptable if tax from the cost of capital. This includes tax as a company-specific the costs were simply diverted to private profits in the cost based on the company’s actual gearing projections.” private sector for companies that pay little or no tax. We could well do the following things. First, if we A further disadvantage of PFI—this was touched on applied the equator principles, we would put in place a by my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives—is that the credit risk management framework for determining, asset passes from the public or accountable sector into 295 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 296 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill the private sector. We therefore lose the asset and the can then be charged to get the maximum revenue stream revenue stream to the public purse. We do not reduce indefinitely, and no incentive to have a cheap, good-value the public’s payment, which in the end is more expensive. product at the end of the day. My question to my colleagues in government is this: are we asking the Mark Field: An issue not specific to this debate is serious questions as to whether the taxpayer should be ongoing financial assistance from the public purse for putting up any financial support for the scheme? many years to come, often through an artificially created special purpose vehicle rather than a more straightforward 2.45 pm process. Such vehicles, as the right hon. Gentleman Since 2003, RWE and Kemble have vastly increased rightly points out, are often driven by maximising profits, the debt held by Thames Water. Debt has been taken potentially by minimising tax and all other returns to out of the company not because of a vast capital the Treasury. renewal programme or investment in infrastructure. A normal company might take out debt to invest in capital, Simon Hughes: To turn that into a picture, that could increase assets or pay down debt over time. Under those mean that the Thames tunnel will be built by a separate circumstances, we could expect to see a short-term company, not Thames Water. The company will own increase in debt, which would fall over time as the debt the tunnel indefinitely, and rent, as it were, the use of is paid off, and expect shareholder equity to increase to the tunnel to Thames Water. It will collect the income reflect the value of the investments made. indefinitely and do what it will in terms of distributing Thames Water, despite being a highly profitable company, the profits, while we—the 12 million people in Thames has shown no increase in shareholder equity in almost a Water constituencies—continue to pay charges, with no decade. That is demonstrated by the Thames Water control over the profit being made by the owners. balance sheet, which since 2003 has shown a fall in The M6 is the best example I can find. The M6 toll shareholder equity at a time when the company has road is currently the only cash motorway in the UK. In taken out more than £5 billion in additional debt. Last May 2003, Macquarie executive Dennis Eager boasted: year alone, the company increased its debt by £1.25 billion. The accounts of Thames Water show that it paid out “’We can put up the tolls by whatever we like and start the tolls £271 million in dividends and moved £685 million of on day one at whatever we like. If motorists don’t complain about it being too high, we have done our job properly.” loans to other group companies—almost £1 billion in assets were moved out of the company, to be covered by I went through the toll the other day and paid £4.60 or even more borrowing. something. That was the weekend rate, which is slightly cheaper, but cars using the toll during the week are Given that we now have a project estimate cost of charged £5.50, and lorries pay £11, making the M6 toll £4.1 billion, Thames Water should be asked whether it one of the most expensive toll roads in Europe. You, would have been able to finance the tunnel project had Mr Hoyle, may know the price more accurately than me it followed a different policy over the last decade. The because you have probably used it more frequently than policy has clearly had a serious impact on its ability to Ihave. borrow. The company’s corporate rating on the Standard & Poor’s scale has gone from A plus with a positive Traffic using the M6 toll is declining, but it is soaring outlook to a position in which some of its debt has been on the neighbouring non-toll M6. The number of cars downgraded to triple B, which is just above junk bond using the M6 toll declined by 10% in the past year, status. meaning that it is ineffective at relieving traffic on the What has the regulator done about that? Thames M6, which was its whole purpose. In 2005, the company Water steadily degraded its credit rating to the point at operating the toll road had a net worth of £67 million which it does not have the capacity fully to borrow all and paid no corporation tax. that it wants, and has asked the Government for financial support. Ofwat regulates the industry to ensure that Mark Field: One concern with the Thames tunnel is companies do not get themselves in a position in which that there is so little incentive for Thames Water to have they can no longer operate as going concerns. That is a cost-effective scheme in place because of the nature of entirely right: water companies are local monopolies, the payouts. Many hon. Members will recall that at the and there would be devastating consequences for the outset, the project was to cost £1.6 billion, but we are local population were they to fail, because people cannot now looking at a £4.1 billion project. There seems to be go anywhere else to get their water. no sense whatever of an incentive for Thames Water to Provisions include companies having to keep their have something that is more cost-effective, which investment grade status and the ring-fencing of capital would obviously benefit hard-pressed bill payers from assets. If the credit position of water companies falls 144 constituencies in the House. below investment grade, a cash lock-up mechanism prevents them from paying dividends and ensures that Simon Hughes: That is exactly the point. I should profits are kept within companies. That mechanism is have gone on for another paragraph before I let my hon. intended only to stop companies going bust; it is not Friend intervene. I shall finish the figures on the toll and intended to encourage prudential long-term financial then address the point he makes. management that allows companies the capacity to In 2006, Macquarie Infrastructure Group, the owners borrow to make large capital infrastructure investments of the M6 toll, cashed in £392 million in profits despite when they need to do so. The case is perfectly demonstrated contributing only £1.5 in equity to the scheme. The link by Thames Water, which is currently right on the margin is that Macquarie is behind Kemble Water, which owns of losing its investment grade status despite the fact that Thames Water. My concern is exactly that alluded to by it has known for many years that the tunnel is coming. I my hon. Friend. There is an incentive to build the believe that that needs to be addressed as a matter of biggest, most expensive tunnel because the largest amount urgency. 297 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 298 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill My last point is that the current system allows companies must protect both public money and the money of the to move their money around. Among Thames Water’s public. By public money, I mean, first, any underwriting debts is a £4 billion debt to a post box in the Cayman of major capital schemes, such as the Thames tunnel. Islands. The post box is called Thames Water Cayman Secondly, this is a large private multinational company—I Finance Ltd, which is based in Ugland House—I have appreciate his research into its holdings and complex never been to the Cayman Islands and cannot tell the structure—and we must ensure that it pays taxes in House exactly where that is, but 18,000 other companies the UK. use it as their registered address. At the same time, however, we must also look after Thames Water Utilities Cayman Finance makes no the money of the public and ensure that not a penny profit because it owes £4 billion to its creditors. It might more is paid in increased water charges, particularly be a bit difficult to follow the trail of corporate involvement, given that water charges are already rising above the but as my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall rate of inflation for all water users across the UK, (Dan Rogerson) said, it does not seem like transparent including Thames Water customers. I was somewhat public accounting in the interests of the taxpayer and reassured on Second Reading when the Minister said water rate payer. This company, being a monopoly that the Government shared those concerns and that he supplier of water to 20% of the UK’s population, needs was sceptical about the project—at least about whether to be transparent. its financing was what Thames Water said it was. There Furthermore, Thames Water can deduct its interest would be broad agreement on that. payments from its taxable profits, which is one reason I also agree with many of the comments of the right that on the £600 million in operating profits that Thames hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark Water made last year it paid only—wait for it—£16 million about Thames Water, particularly under the ownership in tax. That was after a £400 million deduction for of RWE. During my first two or three years in the interest payments. And guess where they went! Most House, Thames Water was my bête noir, partly because went to its subsidiary in the Cayman Islands. If we are of how it dealt with leaks—digging up roads all around about closing tax loopholes and dealing with tax avoidance, London in a completely ad hoc, unconcerned way and the regulators should not be condoning mass tax avoidance leaving workings for months at a time—while still not by companies providing a monopoly utilities service getting to grips with the problem. Furthermore, the such as water to people in London and the surrounding problem of sewer flooding, particularly in west London, counties. has been a blight on people’s lives. Year on year, Ofwat’s position paper on the Kemble takeover of thousands of basement and ground-floor properties in Thames Water stated that tax efficiencies from capital my constituency are flooded by sewers, yet little attention restructuring should be passed on to consumers. I do is paid to it. And, indeed, there are Thames Water’s not sense that consumers are getting the benefit, although financial arrangements, which the right hon. Gentleman I do not think they should get benefits as a result of a spoke about. tax dodge involving huge sums of money that ought to It is only right to balance that, however, by mentioning be going into the UK Treasury to deal with the public that Thames Water’s performance has improved markedly financial crisis. A sensible gearing ratio of about 65% would in the past few years in many of those areas, although also limit tax avoidance by limiting how much interest we should continue to be concerned about its financial could be deducted from taxable profits. structures. A lot has been written in the papers in the I am grateful for your indulgence, Mr Hoyle. I am past few days about the current drought and impending sorry if it was a rather longer perambulation even than hosepipe ban and other possible measures, and the what people thought the ring main would have been water companies are rightly under scrutiny. I note that had it been a ring main—although actually it is going to in total—this is not just Thames Water—water companies be a long pipe. There will be further debate next week are likely to report annual profits of £1.5 billion and on other issues, but I am keen that DEFRA, the that they are currently leaking about one quarter of the Government and all other Departments focus on the water they provide. They provide about 14.6 billion need to end this scandal, which has existed for several litres daily, and about one quarter of that is being years, and do not allow Thames Water to get away with leaked. It has been pointed out quite correctly that the what is probably the worst example of financial hosepipe ban will save only 20% of the water being management leading to the worst exploitation of the leaked daily. consumer and the taxpayer. I hope that the Government The water companies, then, have a long way to go. will be robust in their response. Many of their problems were caused by the botched privatisation under the then Conservative Government The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): and the fact that, as the right hon. Gentleman said, The good news is that I am not going to judge the there has been an incentive for companies to beef up speech or the ring main. their profits to make themselves ripe for takeover, to sell on at a profit and not to worry during those years about Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): I will, I their consumers and the cash cow that comes from hope, be a little briefer than the right hon. Member for having an effective local water monopoly. Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). I Everyone will be grateful for the research that the just want to make a few remarks arising from his right hon. Gentleman has done into the financing structures. comments and amendments. I am less sure, however, that his amendments would I am absolutely with the right hon. Gentleman on the deal with that. I will not spend long on this because I general principle that in going ahead with the Bill, suspect that the Front-Bench spokesman, my hon. Friend which I believe has all-party support—I am not sure the Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker), will about him but he is not pressing his amendment—we explain, not as eloquently as me but forensically and 299 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 300 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill analytically, how the Labour amendments would water mains—and it would also cost four or five times provide the necessary safeguards in a less prescriptive more than the highest estimated cost for the tunnel. and detailed but more effective way to ensure that if any However, we must use SUDS, and indeed other measures projects come forward for financial assistance, they are I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for tested in the House first to ensure that the assistance is Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) for his intervention, necessary. because he brings me back to the point that I was I depart from the right hon. Gentleman in respect of making. I was pleased to receive an invitation from the the effect that his amendment might have on the clause. right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark In the end, we need a project in London that will resolve to attend a meeting on 6 March in this place. This the daily, sometimes weekly, regular flow of huge quantities perhaps draws attention to the point that the hon. of sewage into the Thames. On this, I am not sure where Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark he is coming from. When we debated this matter last Field) raised, because although probably 140 to 150 MPs September in Westminster Hall, he said: would have been invited if the right hon. Gentleman “I also put in a short response to the private commission that had asked all those with an interest in Thames Water, I was set up by some interested local authorities and chaired by think only three turned up—me, the hon. Member for Lord Selborne.”— Hendon (Mr Offord), who is in his place, and my right in fact, it was set up by Hammersmith and Fulham hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich council— (Mr Raynsford), who was here a moment ago. That “The commission has argued that we must have a totally different perhaps shows a certain lack of interest among some of direction. I am not persuaded by that. The Thames tunnel is the our colleagues. I am sure that the hon. Member for best direction. The previous Government came to that view and Cities of London and Westminster would have been the present Government have held to it.”—[Official Report, there, had he not had a more pressing engagement—I 14 September 2011; Vol. 532, c. 316WH.] am sure that it was not the Campaign for Real Ale That was in September. In February, he said: reception that was on at the same time, but there we go. “I am now clear that, since the end of the first round of The invitation asked us to come and listen to Chris consultations in 2011, the arguments for a review of the full Binnie, the engineer who served as the independent tunnel proposal and possible alternatives have substantially increased.”—[Official Report, 29 February 2012; Vol. 541, c. 391.] chair of the Thames tideway strategic study steering group, which recommended the full tunnel solution. He I am not sure what happened between September and was going to be present to explain February. This is important because we must find an effective solution. There is no point putting forward “why he now believes the costs have exceeded the benefits, and why there are quicker and cheaper solutions that should be half measures. considered urgently.” Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I have met I am familiar, as many Members are, with Mr Binnie’s Thames Water and looked at the situation. Pollution of proposal, which is what he has called the “Binnie Bubbler”, the Thames is totally unacceptable—as are the levels of It is designed to aerate the Thames in a way that sewage going into the Thames. There has to be a better prevents the death of the fish and other livestock—if drainage system to ensure that that does not continue. that is right phrase—in the Thames. I have read the However, does my hon. Friend agree that after this arguments for and against the “Binnie Bubbler”, and I process we need much tougher regulations to deal with have always been rather sceptical about it, because I am the paving over of large areas of London and the not sure that it is suitable for the tidal Thames—it has Thames basin, which leads to excessive water run-off apparently worked in Cardiff bay in a lagoon area—and from rain fall, which then joins the sewage, becoming a also because I do not think it acceptable to allow raw sewage surge in the Thames? That water should be sewage into the Thames at current levels and then replenishing ground water, not being flushed away with simply to try to aerate it and possibly skim off the the sewage and thus causing pollution in our river. worst of it. I therefore went along to the meeting—although I am 3pm sorry that I could not stay for the entire time—to see Mr Slaughter: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. whether Mr Binnie had something more to say on that The schemes that he describes, which are collectively issue. It would be fair to say that he had something known as SUDS— quite surprising to say. I appreciate that I am about to read from a note about the meeting that was written up Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): Sustainable by a supporter of the tunnel—I had left by this stage—but urban drainage systems. it says: “Chris Binnie announced that he had changed his mind again Mr Slaughter: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for and now supported Thames Water’s view that we should implement that prompt. Local authorities have woken up to the the single Thames Tunnel option. Wow! You could hear the gasps possibility of SUDS, albeit perhaps somewhat late in around the room and Simon Hughes’ chin nearly hit the floor.” the day. Many are now insisting in planning applications That might be slightly unfair: the right hon. Member that there should be no more paving over, while many for Bermondsey and Old Southwark is unfazed even by are rightly taking enforcement action where those conditions things greater than engineers changing their minds, for are disobeyed. However, it is quite wrong to think that the second time. However, this issue draws attention to SUDS on their own will be a solution to the problem; an important point in the argument about the Bill, and rather, they offer additional assistance. The idea that we brings us back to the financing. I think everybody—certainly can suddenly convert road surfaces and pavements into everybody present in the Chamber today and most permeable surfaces across London is highly impractical— other Members of the House, albeit with certain exceptions, look at the problems we had with simply replacing the my neighbouring Member of Parliament being one of 301 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 302 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Mr Slaughter] from Bermondsey and Old Southwark or Cities of London and Westminster. However, they were all hard- them—supports the idea that something must be done working people—they worked longer than I did. Together, to relieve sewer flooding of the Thames in a substantive they cleared up several skips of industrial, commercial way that will last us, we hope, as long as the Bazalgette and consumer waste—if I can put it that way. solution did. Jeremy Corbyn: I rise to intervene on my hon. Friend Simon Hughes: I do not want to prolong this for the last time and to thank him, because I visited the unnecessarily, but would like to say clearly that my Hammersmith shoreline on Saturday evening, and it presumption has always been that something needed to was absolutely brilliantly clean. I looked over that pristine be done. I started from the view that the Thames tunnel area of mud and sand, and thought, “This is amazing! was the right solution. However, I want to be sure—not This is how the Thames can be. I wonder which guardian just for myself, but for my constituents, for the reasons angel has been here and cleaned it up”—and now I that have been set out—that we are not about to embark know. on an expensive project if it is not entirely needed and has not been objectively assessed to be the right solution. Mr Slaughter: Modesty forbids; all I would say, without Hence, I come to this issue with a “Let’s check and be going into too much graphic detail, is that when I left, I certain before we press the button” approach. That was washed everything that I was wearing, yet it was still my view before I went to the Binnie meeting and when I Monday morning before I got the smell out of my came out of it, and it remains my view today. nostrils. Unfortunately, I did not go and wash everything I was wearing immediately, because I had to go canvassing Mr Slaughter: I am grateful for that clarification. I for Mr Livingstone in between. I cannot think how have never signed up to the concept of the tunnel many votes I must have lost in the condition I was in, uncritically or without reservations—or, indeed, at all— following my outing on the foreshore. because I have always held open the option that there It is a lot cleaner on the foreshore, and I appreciate might be a better solution, and if that is what the right absolutely what the Thames tunnel coalition, Thames21, hon. Gentleman is saying, then we are on all fours with has done, and all the fantastic consumer groups involved, each other. That is why I have looked in some detail at in organising the clear-up. I pay tribute to them, although proposals such as the “Binnie Bubbler”, SUDS and the I wish that they did not have to do that work in those idea of separate rainwater and sewerage networks, which appalling conditions. would also create the problem of huge disruption and much additional cost. Some of those projects, including One of the people who was working hard there on water conservation, can be done and should be effective, that morning was a young man called Conor Newman- both environmentally and from a cost perspective; the Walley, aged 15. He and his dad were there, working difficult thing is to find an alternative that does what the away. He goes to the same school in Hammersmith that Thames tunnel would do. I went to many years ago, and he is in the rowing team. It is a very good rowing team, as it was then. He is a Jeremy Corbyn: My hon. Friend represents a riverside founder member of Rowers Against Thames Sewage— constituency, and therefore must have studied the issue RATS—and this is what he has said to the Thames in detail. I understand that the tunnel will not last for all tunnel organisation: time and will become overloaded within the next three “In Victorian times, the people of London solved the first or four decades. Therefore, we need to examine how we sewage crisis by implementing one of the most influential engineering use water and how drainage systems operate, rather projects of its time. As young people we learn and marvel about than hitting another crisis in three or four decades’ time. these feats in history at school. The challenge of sewage in the Thames today is too big for our generation. We look to those Mr Slaughter: I agree, and something that is effectively above us to put the projects in place that will solve this problem for generations to come. Our call to you is to build something a large sewer pipe stuck under the River Thames can amazing that our children will learn about in school.” sometimes look like old technology in some ways. There has to be a more organic and continuing process of That attitude is one that we should adopt as we contemplate developing solutions to avoid tunnelling, but it remains the Bill. the case, first, that this solution has been preferred in It is our duty to scrutinise the Bill and, more importantly, many other capital cities around the world and, secondly, when it is passed, to scrutinise the project and any that at the end of the day, it is the simplest, clearest and public money that might be committed to it and possibly most effective solution. Therefore, as well as considering put at risk. I hope that the amendments are not designed other, additional measures, all our attention should be to stand in the way of ensuring that the clean-up of the focused on how the Thames tunnel can be contained as Thames takes place. For Conor, a regular user of the a project, particularly financially, but also in terms of Thames, this is not a lifestyle question, or a matter of the disruption that it would cause. the river looking pretty or smelling nice; it is a question However, I take my hon. Friend’s point entirely, and of health, and of whether he can feel pride in his conclude by going back to basics and why we need this community when he goes to the river to take part in his project. When I spoke on Second Reading last week, I sport. He needs to be able to take part in that sport invited my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South to without feeling personally inconvenienced or put at join me last Saturday on the foreshore of the Thames by risk. the CSOs—combined sewer overflows—in Hammersmith The Thames brings huge benefits to people, particularly for the Thames21 clear-up. I was very disappointed to my constituents who live alongside it and use it regularly. see that he obviously had pressing constituency business, We have a duty to the public purse, as well as to because he would otherwise have joined me and about ensuring that London has a river that is fit to look at, to 100 of my constituents—although they might have been use and to enjoy. I appreciate the right hon. Member for 303 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 304 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Bermondsey and Old Southwark’s attention to the financial for a range of deals that are already in train, particularly detail, but I hope that he has not strayed so far from the in relation to private finance initiatives in schools, hospitals path that he cannot also commit to those aims. and roads that have already been built but which have not been fully paid for. The financial engineering that Mark Field: I do not necessarily regard the proposals could be put in place could be detrimental to the as a scandal, as the right hon. Member for Bermondsey Treasury, and to taxpayers and ratepayers, for a considerable and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) seemed to suggest time to come. when moving his amendment, but I share many of his This has been a worthwhile debate, in that it has general concerns about the financial engineering. I say allowed us to discuss those matters. No one disputes that as the very proud Member for the Cities of London the fact that we need to do something about the and Westminster. I do my bit to stand up for the banking Thames Water area and the Thames tunnel, but there is fraternity and for large corporates, many of which are a notion that that should be driven by Thames Water based in my constituency. Deep concerns have been alone. As I have said, Thames Water has no disincentive raised by the amendments, however. The amendments to raise the cost, knowing that it will be reflected in will not be put to the vote; they are testing amendments higher bills in perpetuity. We had a good history lesson that will enable us to have a useful debate on this matter. from the hon. Member for Hammersmith earlier, and I would not wish this debate to be seen as hostile to we clearly need to do some work to ensure that the Thames Water. I have had fairly positive dealings with it arrangements are fit for the 21st century, rather than over the significant amount of work that is being done being set in aspic in the 19th, but I am concerned about in my constituency, in the City of London and in the the financial arrangements. This relates to my more City of Westminster. It is carrying out a huge amount general concern about the controversy that will inevitably of work there, and there is no doubt that it has been surround many City-related financial deals in the future. very disruptive, but I hope that central London will have It will do great discredit to the large amount of financing a far better water system in the years to come as a result. that goes on if there is a sense that the wool is being Deep concerns have been raised about how necessary pulled over the eyes of taxpayers and residents in this it is to spend as much as £4.1 billion. It is quite respectable kind of scheme. That will undermine the credibility of for the right hon. Gentleman to raise his concerns, the important infrastructure work that needs to be done although I suspect that he might have been less concerned in the interests of us all as users of Thames Water’s if the huge amount of building work had been due to products. take place on the other side of the river, perhaps in Wapping rather than Rotherhithe. We all know that there Jeremy Corbyn: I missed the first 45 minutes of the has been a lot of disruptive work. I have seen it happening speech by the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and in my constituency with Crossrail. I have always been a Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), but I have discussed firm supporter of Crossrail, although I have often said this matter with him before and I am aware of his that there were no votes in taking that position. Indeed, concerns. He is quite right to raise the financial issues votes have been lost through so doing. surrounding the Thames tunnel, because they are serious We are proposing to spend a huge amount of money matters. on the Thames tunnel, and I am not convinced that that Bazalgette and his colleagues who did such fantastic is entirely justified. I do not disagree with what has been work in the 19th century to create the London sewerage said by the hon. Members for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) system created a world-class achievement. However, and for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). Significant they could never have predicted the way in which London’s work clearly needs to be done to improve the quality of population would change, or the great increase in the the water in the Thames, although, compared with early use of appliances such as washing machines, which use Victorian times, it is now wonderfully clean. That is no much more water. Those changes have led to an increase cause for complacency, however. in waste, the overflowing of the sewerage system and the pollution of the Thames. Having improved the 3.15 pm condition of the river from being foul and putrid to The financial structuring of the Thames tunnel project very clean, we are now heading quickly back in the seems almost to provide an incentive for Thames Water wrong direction. Not so long ago, we were all very to adopt a bells-and-whistles approach. As I mentioned proud of the water quality in the Thames; we are not earlier, the total bill has gone up from the £1.6 billion any longer. We see what happens every year when storm that was being touted four or five years ago to the drains overflow into the river. We need to think carefully present figure of £4.1 billion. The impact on bill payers whether the proposed measures are the solution, and will be enormous, particularly in these times of austerity, whether they are the solution for all time. which will be with us for some years to come. I suspect that the measures will go through, but Thames Water Mark Field: I hope that the hon. Gentleman would customers will be up in arms only when they are faced agree that this is also a reflection of much higher with an additional £80 a year on their bills, much of expectations. We rightly have higher expectations in which will be justified on environmental and other relation to water quality. It would be wrong to suggest grounds. By that time, it will be too late, as the permission that we have gone in totally the wrong direction, for the project will already have been given. I hope that although there are problems with water quality. I accept the Minister will look seriously at this, and make his that problems of sewage and effluent in other parts of own representations to Thames Water. London, which do not affect my constituency, are agood This brings to mind an important point made by the reason for implementing some improvement, but it does right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark not need to be the all-embracing scheme that is being about the more general problem of financial assistance proposed at the moment. 305 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 306 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Jeremy Corbyn: There is a serious danger of many Applications for projects on the scale of the Thames Members agreeing with each other here, which will not tunnel will be considered by an independent body—in do the House’s reputation any good at all. [Interruption.] this case, the Infrastructure Planning Commission. I It will not do the reputation of the hon. Member for understand that back in September 2010, Thames Water Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) or referred the matter back to the IPC. Beyond that, I mine any good at all, either. I think the hon. Gentleman understand that after investigation, the Secretary of makes a fair point. I do not wish to exaggerate by saying State will be required to look at the project to establish that quality of the water in the Thames is heading back whether it is acceptable; that will be followed by acceptance to what it was in the 19th century. It is not, but it is or rejection by Parliament. deteriorating because of the amount of effluent being The scale and the nature of the Thames tunnel project pushed into it and because the sewerage system cannot has triggered the need to undertake an environmental cope. Ergo, something clearly has to be done. impact assessment in accordance with the EU EIA I have discussed this issue with my hon. Friend the directive and the EIA regulations. The EIA process will Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter). As I see it, seek to identify the likely significant effects of the the Thames tunnel is a solution and it is necessary. My project, which we hope will inform part of the design concern is with the cost and the impact; I am also process and facilitate design improvements, ultimately concerned about whether the solution will last. That is identifying suitable mitigation measures for any residual why I hope that the Minister will inform us, when he environmental and social effects on our constituents. comes to reply, that his Department is seriously looking The output of the EIA process—the environmental at other issues, such as permeable surfaces, reducing the statement—will convey to decision makers, such as use of water, using other forms of drainage that do not ourselves, the environmental effects of the project, including pump everything down towards the Thames, and perhaps on local communities. other forms of sewage disposal that will not lead another Other studies have been undertaken that will inform generation to have to spend an equally large amount of the independent decision makers during the IPC process, money on the next new solution to this problem. including an equalities impact assessment, a health I recognise that we have a problem; I recognise that impact assessment and a sustainability assessment. In London has to wake up to it. I believe that the Thames addition, as we all know, local authorities will be able to tunnel is probably the only solution on offer to deal make their case directly to the IPC, and they will be able with it. We have to look ahead as well, just as Parliament to produce their own local impact statements. Finally, was forced to face up to the pollution in the river in the the extensive consultations undertaken by Thames Water 19th century when it stank Members out of the building. comply fully with the Planning Act 2008 and are in line We are not at that stage yet, but Londoners deserve a with the Aarhus convention. decent and clean river of which they can be proud. We It is certainly my view—and I believe it is the view of look forward to the days when the salmon and dolphins Thames Water, which is proposing the scheme—that are back in the Thames, as they could, should and the directives and guidelines are being complied with to ought to be. an extent that far exceeds the requirements of the equator principles, and I am particularly uncomfortable Mr Offord: I shall comment on the proposals of the with that. I am disappointed that the amendment will right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark not be pressed to the vote. I feel that when amendments (Simon Hughes). Some of his comments were interesting have been tabled, we should test the view of the Committee and opened me up to some of his concerns, which are on them. I do not understand why the right hon. shared by some Conservative Members. I shall investigate Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark tabled some further issues afterwards, but I wish to put some this amendment. I would have thought that he had done comments on the record now. enough work to be able to speak eloquently about his I am a supporter of the Thames tunnel. I do not other concerns. I do not think that he really believes in think I am considered a spendthrift politician. I am this measure, which rather muddies the water generally. often described as a right-wing Conservative—a moniker The second part of my speech is about the Chris with which I am very comfortable. On this occasion, Binnie meeting, which I attended. I was quite surprised however, I am supporting Thames Water in its endeavours to hear that the person who promoted the original plan to clean up the river. had decided, after seven or so years, that he felt an I am most concerned about amendment 4, proposed alternative was more viable. The viability of the scheme, by the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old he said, lay in the fact that it would cost only £60 million Southwark, according to which financial assistance should as compared with the £4.1 billion he originally envisaged. be given for “the financing the infrastructure” only if What he did not address in the meeting, however, was “secured by a group company which has adopted the equator the fact that the £60 million scheme would not principles.” fundamentally address the problem of sewage and other I was not initially aware of what the equator principles contaminants in the river. All it would do is scrape some were, so I went away to conduct a little research. of the 39 million tonnes of effluent off the top of the The equator principles were established to guide Thames and aerate some of the river, affecting fish and investment for major works and projects in developing livestock living in it. It does not address some of the countries, particularly those countries that have a limited issues in the EU environmental legislation that we need environmental regulatory framework. Although they to address fundamentally as part of the super-sewer are now described as applying to all major projects scheme. across the country, the relevant environmental directives I was rather concerned to hear that someone who had here in the UK set much higher standards than anything proposed a scheme only seven years ago had suddenly that appears in the equator principles. changed his mind. I felt that some of these aspects 307 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 308 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill should have been considered seven years ago. He said That should not be the purpose of installing new that circumstances, including the financial situation in infrastructure. It is for the Minister to confirm the exact which the country and Government find themselves, arrangements, but I remind the Committee that in 2010 had changed. That reminded me of an old African we legislated for a financial mechanism allowing the proverb—that the best time to plant a tree is 20 years Thames tunnel to be built and operated by a company ago, and the second best time is now. I ask myself why other than Thames Water to ensure that Thames Water he did not push this scheme forward at the time. We did not profit disproportionately. The current proposals have had to wait seven years and he now claims that it is build on that, seeking to enable the Government to take unaffordable. I am very suspicious of people who come the powers they believe they should take to ensure that forward with a professional opinion and then, when the tunnel goes ahead. circumstances change, decide that better alternatives Let me conclude by saying—I hope to be painlessly could have been proposed. In hindsight, it would have brief—that we cannot support the amendments, and been better if he had advocated these proposals originally. that we call on the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw I do not believe that the amendment will be pressed them in favour of our amendment 2. We also invite him to a vote. If it were, for the reasons I have outlined, I to join us in debating the statutory instrument on the would certainly be against it. I do not wish to detain the Thames tunnel, and to deploy arguments as skilful as Committee any longer—certainly not for as long as the those that he has deployed today. right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark did. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to Richard Benyon: Everyone in the Chamber recognises some of the points that have been raised. that the words “Thames Water” appear nowhere in the Bill. Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend the Member for Gavin Shuker: The right hon. Member for Bermondsey Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) has and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) raises a number of raised some legitimate points. important issues through these amendments. In so doing, I am certainly not here to be the voice of Thames I believe he makes our case, which we will come on to Water. While I entirely understand the concerns that discuss in the next group of amendments, for proper have been expressed by Members in all parts of the parliamentary scrutiny in the exercise of clause 2. However, Committee, I think we should be careful about debating we take a different view on the correct mechanism in the structure of companies, or our perceptions of their this case. We believe that rather than attempting to virtue or otherwise. It is not for me to talk at length restrict the powers of the Secretary of State—despite today about tax loopholes, perceived or actual, and in the rather ingenious way in which he has crafted the any event you would not allow me to do so, Ms Primarolo. amendments—the best way to debate major infrastructure The Government intend to block such loopholes where works is through a statutory instrument process, before they exist, and it is the job of Her Majesty’s Revenue triggering the powers in clause 2. Because we believe and Customs to hold companies to account. that our amendment provides a superior mechanism, we are reluctant to support the right hon. Gentleman’s I recognise that there is an issue that needs to be amendments, although I accept that he has already said addressed by Thames Water in respect of its customers that they are, to a degree, intended to probe the and the 144 Members of Parliament—including me—who Government’s position. are concerned about it. However, we should be wary of I admit that I was a little confused about the right trying to prescribe such matters as debt equity ratios in hon. Gentleman’s own position. Last week he said that legislation. Shifting the percentage from debt to equity he was no longer convinced of the arguments in favour could have a serious effect on bills in some water of the Thames tunnel, and I hope that the amendments companies’ areas, and although debt levels are obviously are not designed to allow him to sit on the fence. In view of concern and we must ensure that they are as low as of climate projections that forecast a substantial increase possible, it is not for Ministers to make such prescriptive in the number of flash floods in the region—it is expected decisions. that by 2060 the UK’s current single occurrence in 30 years will become one in 11, and that the current Mark Field: Does my hon. Friend not accept that single occurrence in 100 years will become one in 30—we legislation is the only mechanism whereby Members think that the need for the tunnel is obvious. can address fundamental issues such as this? Many of us find it quite distressing that Ofwat, as the regulator, We do, however, agree that the scheme could be is not doing the job that it should be doing in relation to accompanied by a number of other measures. It should what are fairly high-profile issues. Is he suggesting that be borne in mind that the Thames tunnel will still be we can rely entirely on Ofwat to judge whether debt overwhelmed by large storms occurring perhaps every equity relationships are appropriate? The right hon. three months. That demonstrates that the design is not Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon over-engineered, as some would claim, but provides a Hughes) pointed out that although there are distinct decent standard of protection for the Thames. guidelines in Ofwat’s own documentation, they seem to The right hon. Gentleman has indicated that he does have been largely ignored by Thames Water, and may not intend to press his amendments to the vote. I invite well have been ignored by other water companies. Indeed, him to support our amendment 2 later, when these the same may apply to other regulators which many of points can be properly addressed. us believe are simply not delivering the goods.

3.30 pm Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend makes an entirely We agree that an investment programme to comply with legitimate point. It is absolutely Parliament’s role to waste water requirements should not disproportionately hold debates and adopt positions and, in many cases, enrich the balance sheets of a private water company. hold to account corporations who are responsible for 309 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 310 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Richard Benyon] I was asked under what circumstances financial assistance would be given for the tunnel. We are still considering products such as water, which is so important to our the most effective financing mechanisms for the project. constituents’ lives. I am sorry if I gave the impression We are talking with Ofwat, Thames Water and our own that that might in some way be diminished. There are advisers. No decisions have yet been made on the form many forums within Parliament, not least the Select of any financial assistance, or how it could work. Committee process, for holding organisations such as I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Islington Ofwat to account for the decisions they take. I assure North (Jeremy Corbyn) that we must also have clear my hon. Friend that we have regular discussions with all policies on public open green space and green spaces three regulators of the water industry, as well as with generally. We have published policies on that and the the water companies, to ensure that decisions are taken green infrastructure partnership that we are creating. properly in relation to us in Government, and he is also We are also working on the use of permeable surfaces, right that Parliament should debate such matters, too. which is largely a building regulations matter, but also I want to rattle through some of the points raised in comes under the remit of the Department. We will be the debate before addressing the questions asked by my announcing our policy on sustainable urban drainage right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old systems following the consultation on that in the near Southwark. First, I want to put on the record that I future, so he is right to raise the matter. celebrate the fact that another country’s sovereign wealth Let me deal with the points made by my right hon. fund wants to invest in water companies in this country— Friend. He has tabled amendments to attach to the indeed, that has received a generally positive reception. granting of financial assistance several mandatory terms It is also worth putting on the record that no decision and conditions relating to the financial structure of the has yet been made as to whether the Thames tideway undertaker responsible for the construction or works. I tunnel should form part of Thames Water’s regulated take his concerns seriously and share his desire to asset base. ensure that should any public financial support go to I also want to say that I share the admiration for the Thames tunnel or similar projects—it is important Thames21 expressed by the hon. Member for Hammersmith to understand that this is not just about the Thames (Mr Slaughter). I have visited that organisation on a tunnel—it is tightly controlled. number of occasions, and it does fantastic work around My right hon. Friend has put on the record his letter our capital, reminding us not only why this river is so to the Secretary of State and much of her reply to him, important to those who live in London, but also that it and I do not intend to go through that in detail. passes through one of the seven most important cities However, in dealing with his amendments, I should, in the world. That must motivate us to get this project first, reiterate that the clause, as drafted, already allows right. terms and conditions to be attached to the financial There has been some comment about this project assistance. As with amendment 3, I do not accept, being a private finance initiative venture. As I am sure however, that it is necessary or appropriate to include a Members understand, it is not a PFI project because it detailed listing of potential terms and conditions in the would not involve the public sector entering into a Bill. Those may vary from project to project, and it is contract with the private sector. better to retain flexibility on the most appropriate terms and conditions that would protect customers and taxpayers, Some uncertainty will always be associated with projects and ensure that infrastructure projects can be delivered. of this size and complexity. The current cost estimate of That said, the amendments appear to raise questions £4.1 billion includes a significant contingency element about Ofwat’s independent economic regulation of water of £0.9 billion for risk allowance and optimism bias. and sewerage companies. Although the Secretary of Together with Ofwat, Infrastructure UK and the Major State has written recently to my right hon. Friend on Projects Authority, we will continue to scrutinise the this point, it may be useful to set out briefly how the costs and ensure that the project is delivered efficiently, sector is regulated. A greater awareness of this regulatory with a structure and financing mechanism that delivers system may help to reassure hon. Members about the value for money for customers and taxpayers. checks and balances relating to the financing of the Lessons learned from other successful projects will be water sector, and how taxpayers’ and customers’ interests applied to ensure that this project is delivered within are properly protected. Every water and sewerage company budget and on time. I promise my right hon. Friend and in England and Wales is regulated in accordance with other Members that I and my ministerial colleagues Ofwat’s primary duties to protect the interests of customers remain healthily sceptical about the cost of this project. and to enable the companies to finance their functions. We must remain sceptical about any projects that have Each water company is subject to the terms outlined in such high capital costs and that involve an annual its instrument of appointment or, as it is more often charge for so many people, some of whom are on low known, its “licence”. The licence contains conditions to incomes. It would be wrong of us to sleepwalk into an ensure that each company has sufficient financial and arrangement and not be rigorous about the cost element. managerial resources to carry out its functions, and that We are taking the best possible advice. We have taken the regulated company is operated separately from the on Ernst and Young to advise us on the structure and rest of the group. Those licence conditions are known financing of the project, and we have also taken the best as the regulatory ring-fence. advice on engineering solutions. We talk to Thames It is for the management of each regulated water Water regularly, too. I cannot share with Members company to determine their own optimal financial structure. some of the details that I would like to share with them, Where companies have put forward new financial structures, because we are currently in a very sensitive negotiating Ofwat has introduced amendments to licence conditions, time in respect of this project. In due course, I hope, such as the requirement to maintain an investment and expect, to be able to share more details, however. grade credit rating, which been mentioned, to ensure 311 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 312 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill that companies can still finance their functions and that good thing. I should probably have started by declaring consumers’ interests are not affected adversely. High two interests. I chair the Mayor of London’s Thames gearing ratios are, in part, reflective of lenders’ confidence festival, which has a regular interest in ensuring that we in this regulatory regime. celebrate our Thames, and I am a patron of the London I will now discuss the amendments in detail. On Wildlife Trust, which has done lots of work on the amendment 4, my right hon. Friend’s intention may be Thames. I am also a supporter of Thames21, which has that the project should secure finance only from institutions been applauded by Members on both sides of the that have signed up to the equator principles, but that House and has done fantastic work, as have other would limit the market from which finance can be environmental bodies. sought, thus potentially adding cost on to customers’ I join the Minister in celebrating the fact that another bills. In addition, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend country’s sovereign wealth fund is interested in investing. the Member for Hendon (Mr Offord), non-membership That is a good thing. The announcement of the Chinese of the equator scheme does not mean that a financial investment interest in the past few weeks was very institution is not following sound principles. My right welcome and I share his view. hon. Friend’s intention may be that the company seeking I shall be brief and shall just pick up on the comments the finance should sign up to the principles, but it would that have been made. The Minister has been very courteous be inappropriate to ask Thames Water, its holding and recognised that I was seeking to put on the agenda companies, its infrastructure provider or any other water items that I and my constituents think that the Government and sewerage company to sign up to a set of principles ought to bear in mind as they take the Bill forward. I designed for financial institutions active in providing accept entirely that the Bill, as drafted, has a subsection project finance, rather than for companies involved in to proposed new section 154B that allows the terms and providing utility services under a well-established regulatory conditions for any financial assistance to be inserted by regime, which already balances the economic, social the Secretary of State. The debate we are about to have, and environmental aims of sustainable development. which will be initiated by the hon. Member for Luton Amendment 5 deals with debt to equity ratios as a South (Gavin Shuker) on behalf of the official Opposition, condition relating to the provision of financial assistance. is a sort of halfway house. The proposal is that we do I should explain that Ofwat does not find it necessary to not get into the detail but that we have a mechanism— place an absolute cap on levels of gearing. Its requirement for the past two price reviews has been that companies The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means should maintain an investment-grade credit rating. To (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Shall we wait until we start to have this credit rating, companies must maintain sufficient discuss those amendments before we start referring to levels of equity in their business. It is that requirement, them? The right hon. Gentleman should concentrate on together with the regulatory ring fence, that provides the amendments that he has moved. the protection we all want for customers. Simon Hughes: Thank you, Ms Primarolo, and of 3.45 pm course I will. On amendment 10, Ofwat would expect to see proposals I understand that the Minister realises what the issues on how infrastructure would be delivered and financed are. I heard what the Minister said, and I tell my hon. before awarding or modifying a licence. We would not Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr Offord) that the want to see legislation enshrining a duplication of effort equator principles are now well-established principles between Ofwat and the National Audit Office. The for finance companies that are lending nationally and clause already allows for terms and conditions to be internationally and they were the best form I could find attached to financial assistance, but, whatever the merits of a benchmark of ethical standards for financial companies of the specific amendments, I do not believe it is necessary that are lending to utilities. Yes, they were developed in on the face of the Bill to enter into the level of detail the context of the third world, or the developing world, proposed by my right hon. Friend on what might or but they do not just apply there. I understand the points might not be suitable terms and conditions. There are that were made. existing mechanisms to regulate water and sewerage The negotiations to which the Minister referred are undertakers effectively and to protect customers and being conducted confidentially, of course, and I understand there are systems to scrutinise and challenge departmental that, but I hope that after today’s debate we will be able expenditure. to ensure—the Minister has offered to do so—that In conclusion, as I said at the outset, it is right that there is engagement across the parties and across the Ministers should be held accountable for the overall House, including with those of us whose constituents, cost of this project and for how we approach it with like his, have an interest in our ending up with a Thames Water. It is also important to understand, rigorous system for ensuring that Thames Water is however, that this clause and the Bill allow a wider accountable. We have flagged up the wider issue, which application. Detailed and professional negotiations are we want to take elsewhere, with Government. taking place with Thames Water. I think they are working On the comments of Opposition Members, not well and hope to be able to make more announcements least those of the hon. Member for Hammersmith on them in the future. (Mr Slaughter), about the meeting held upstairs, I am For the reasons I have stated, I ask my right hon. grateful that colleagues came to that meeting and others Friend to withdraw his amendment. held in this and other buildings about Thames Water. My view is that an evidence-based conclusion should be Simon Hughes: I am grateful to colleagues who have reached about what the right systems are for dealing contributed, from both upstream and downstream. Both with what has been a growing problem for the Thames. banks of the Thames have been represented, which is a We need to make sure that we are all confident that we 313 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 314 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Simon Hughes] Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman reflect on the idea that proper come up with the right solution, and it is perfectly debate in the House should be required on triggering proper to call people who have views and experience to very detailed financial amendments? Given the lack of give evidence. Like the hon. Gentleman, I was slightly attendance in the broader debate about this Bill, is it surprised that Professor Binnie appeared to move from realistic to expect proper parliamentary scrutiny of a view that he had moved on to, back to a view that he something so minor? had originally held. It is important not to ignore the principle that we should not overspend on a capital Gavin Shuker: I am grateful for that point from the project if there are other ways of doing things that give hon. Gentleman who has joined us in the debate. I ask better value for money. him to hear me out regarding this measure. I am sure he I am grateful for the time we have taken to look at has read the amendment and understands that it refers this issue, which is now on the agenda. I am determined to the process for statutory instruments under which that engagement with Ministers should continue and I Members who had a particular interest in the matter hope that Ministers will be very positive about making would be able to go and make representations. We use sure that not only the Government but Thames Water that system quite commonly across the House and I feel and Ofwat engage. May I end by correcting one thing that such additional parliamentary scrutiny would be that I mis-said when I was talking about an example appropriate for projects such as those we are discussing, that should give us a warning? I was talking about the which could involve costs of up to £4.2 billion and a M6 project and the way it had been funded. I said that long period of tunnelling works and the like, let alone the company that ran the project, which is linked to the for other projects that we do not currently know about. company involved in Thames Water, had a net worth of £67 million and paid no corporation tax, but I should As Members of Parliament we scrutinise, debate and have said that it had a net worth of minus £67 million. I legislate, and we are elected to do so. By putting the hope that this makes my point a better one—that a power to decide whether public money should be risked company may appear not to have any money but can be on large water infrastructure projects solely in the hands paying out large amounts in dividends. I am grateful to of the Secretary of State, we lose that thorough process, have had the opportunity to put that right and I beg to which is the most accessible way for Members to engage ask leave to withdraw the amendment. in legislation here in Parliament. We will see how much Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. interest the Thames tunnel has attracted in the Chamber today as part of the Bill. The debate so far has allowed Gavin Shuker: I beg to move amendment 2, in clause 2, MPs who represent constituencies that will be affected page 3, line 5, at end insert— by the plans to come forward and express the views of ‘(6A) No financial assistance may be given under their constituents, but it is limited. The debate has also subsection (6) unless the Secretary of State has laid a draft of a allowed those with experience and expertise in the field statutory instrument setting out the terms and conditions from both sides of the House to feed in their knowledge including the duration of such assistance before, and such draft and advice. has been approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.’. However, the clause in its current form concerns us because it means that from here on we risk writing The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means blank cheques to the Secretary of State and her successors (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to when it comes to large water infrastructure projects. discuss amendment 3, page 3, line 5, at end insert— The clause will see the decision-making process remain ‘(6B) Before making regulations or an order under this section, in the Secretary of State’s office—decisions which might the Secretary of State must lay a report before Parliament on her lack awareness of how enormous these infrastructure proposals to make apprenticeship programmes including at a plans are and how they will affect people’s homes and Level 5 and Level 6 standard part of any major works, as well as lifestyles. an estimate of the number of jobs created and benefit to the local economy.’. Let us compare the Bill with other Bills that will be introduced in this Parliament before 2015. We know Gavin Shuker: In this final grouping, we seek to that a hybrid Bill process will be used in some cases. improve the Bill by ensuring that the same parliamentary This is not a hybrid Bill, so it is important that we get scrutiny is applied to the wide-ranging powers in clause 2 the groundwork right in relation to the decision-making as we sought to introduce for clause 1, and that the process on the Thames tunnel and other infrastructure. benefits of major works are shared with the whole community, not just shareholders. Amendment 2 recognises Our amendment requests that such proposals come that the powers in clause 2 for the Government to to the House for debate and allow Members to contribute provide contingent financial support for exceptionally their knowledge and experience. Accountability and large or complex water and sewerage infrastructure scrutiny are needed if infrastructure plans are to reshape should be subject to proper debate in the House before constituencies that Members are elected to represent. It they are triggered. As I have already said, it is not our is only right for their input to be considered. Amendment 2 desire to frustrate the will of the House; indeed, there is, will improve the Bill in that way. by and large, consensus across the House that something As an aside, although it is essential to our decision must be done to correct the issues with the Thames and whether to move the amendment, I noted on Second that the Thames tunnel presents the best solution for Reading in the discussion of the decision-making that problem. However, I feel that the clause needs to be process on the Thames tunnel that reference was made considered beyond the context of today and the policy to the policy intent in the Government’s document, statement that I believe will come out in the House on “Major infrastructure planning reform: Work plan” of Monday night. December 2010, which states: 315 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 316 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill “Following Royal Assent of the Localism Bill major infrastructure training for local residents, but whether such a deal is applications will return to ministers for decision as follows:...the then monitored and delivered. Often the will is there but Secretaries of State for Communities and Local Government and it does not turn out that way in practice. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will jointly determine water supply and waste water applications.” Gavin Shuker: The right hon. Gentleman makes his I have checked and DEFRA has confirmed that the point explicitly and brilliantly. If the lessons of the past joint decision-making process is undertaken by 20 years on major infrastructure projects where we have administrative means, not statutory means. In other required special social benefits are to be learnt, monitoring words, although the Localism Act 2011 amended the is absolutely essential. That is why I think that our planning legislation to give Ministers the final decision- amendment’s approach is very sensible. It would require making responsibility for major infrastructure, it did the Secretary of State to bring forward her plan, and an not lay down a legal duty imposing the policy intent. So agreement with the infrastructure provider, so that it DEFRA will lead on waste water and DCLG will could be approved by this House. The additional level handle planning, including the report from the planning of scrutiny given would not just be an assurance in the inspectorate, but the Departments have not yet, as I contracts; there would be proper parliamentary understand it—I look to the Minister to clarify this— accountability to ensure that the benefits, for Londoners decided how Ministers will act jointly in the final decision. in this case, are spread across the capital and give young That falls short of a legal duty to make joint decisions Londoners a fair start. that place a legal responsibility on both Secretaries of We know that the Thames tunnel will be a huge State. It could result in messy horse-trading between the infrastructure project, and we have all seen the bad two Departments. If the Minister clarified the exact news on youth unemployment today, so we are calling process, that would be helpful. It may not address our on the Government to ensure that young Londoners get particular concern that proper parliamentary scrutiny is a fair share of the 4,000 jobs the tunnel will deliver. In applied to the decision through the statutory instrument short, this is a real opportunity to help guarantee process, but it will help us decide whether to press the apprenticeships and high-level skills. I hope that the amendment. Minister will be able to accept both amendments, which The Minister said earlier that he would share the would improve the Bill for Londoners now and for all discussions that he has had with his officials and, as I households in the years to come. understood it, with Thames Water, to reassure us about the cost and the process for implementing the tunnel. Rory Stewart: The hon. Member for Luton South We have another debate on Monday to approve the (Gavin Shuker) has made a powerful case for apprentices guidance on waste water. If not during this debate or and for better scrutiny of financial mechanisms. I stand, the one on Monday, when will he share the discussions with enormous modesty, not as someone representing that he has had, which he sought to use to reassure the Thames, but as someone representing a large body Members that the process would be properly managed? of water in Cumbria. However, my disagreement with Amendment 3 will sharpen the mind of anyone proposing the amendments, and I suspect my party’s disagreement, major infrastructure works by obliging them to consider is based on profound Tory principles. It is a disagreement the requirement to make apprenticeship programmes a not on the nature of scrutiny or the importance of key part of that work. Thames Water estimates that the apprenticeships, but on the basis of law, the way statutes Thames tunnel project will directly create more than should be created, the way administration should be 4,000 jobs in the construction sector. The majority will driven through and the importance of the issue. We be employed through contractors. Of course, the true begin in agreement: apprenticeships are important, as is number is likely to be higher, given the secondary scrutiny. But Parliament is not the way to do this. employment effect. A partnership is emerging with This is an elegant and unencumbered piece of Crossrail’s tunnelling and underground construction legislation. What we have seen in infrastructure academy, which is currently training and placing about investment over the past 50 years is a complete 70 apprentices each year. Last week the Minister gave misunderstanding in this country about the importance an assurance at the Dispatch Box that the Thames of Parliament in infrastructure and where Parliament tunnel project will specify in its contracts the number of should not be involved. We have been a catastrophe— apprentices who will be employed by contractors. not just the Labour Government, but the previous In amendment 3 we commend that approach, not just Conservative Government—when it comes to making for the Thames tunnel project but for future projects. It the right infrastructure investments for this country. would require the Secretary of State to lay a report Why? It is because, unlike Denmark and Germany, before Parliament on her proposals to encourage level 5 we have never developed a proper attitude towards and 6 training programmes—for those Members not infrastructure or investment. We have never developed fully versed in those programmes, they are equivalent to a national investment bank. We continue to believe that foundation and bachelor degree qualifications. These highly technical matters, such as those relating to the major works can take a decade or more to complete, deployment of water or the details of the financing which means that there is ample time to bring a generation of infrastructure, can be resolved by Parliament, of young people into the trades, if the political will is rather than the kinds of specialists in the World Bank there to require it. who deliver these projects effectively around the world. We see that in water and, just as powerfully, in 4pm broadband. Simon Hughes: On that important point, I know from If the Government are pushing ahead with this my experience of the Jubilee line extension and other legislation, and if we are pushing back against the major projects that often the issue is not whether a deal Opposition, it is because the failings over the past is done that in theory ensures jobs, apprenticeships and 13 years in delivering infrastructure are reflected in the 317 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 318 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Rory Stewart] amendable motion but not the power to amend a statutory instrument. I just plant that thought in the minds of the comments of the hon. Member for Luton South. There hon. Gentleman and of other hon. Members. are better ways of looking at the financing; there are better ways of looking at apprenticeships. Gavin Shuker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her We have in place flexible apprenticeship mechanisms warm approach to our amendments and for her suggestion. that are currently delivering more than 100,000 apprentices. To be clear, we would not necessarily have chosen the Encumbering this legislation or, indeed, any future process that we are engaged in with this Bill, which is a infrastructure legislation with that degree of detail would money Bill. A hybrid Bill might have provided an not only, as my right hon. Friend the Member for opportunity really to scrutinise the two projects that, as Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) pointed the Minister has already said, the Bill is about. out, prove generally ineffective, as it has in the past owing to a lack of monitoring, but take away from civil Miss McIntosh: Bearing in mind the history of hybrid servants—which is where it should lie—the real Bills in this House, and the length of time and the responsibility and accountability for delivering good, amount of dissent that they can involve, I am not sure imaginative infrastructure projects, well financed and that that is the path the hon. Gentleman really, truly with apprentices in place. wishes to go down. Given the importance of this issue, given that water matters so much to us, given that the drop in public Richard Benyon: I am grateful to the hon. Member sector demand means that we should make more for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) and his colleagues for infrastructure investment, given that we need to be tabling the amendments, because that allows me to much more creative about how we bring financial explain—and, I hope, to reassure the House—about the mechanisms to bear, given that it is so cheap at the use and the powers of the clause. moment to borrow money, and given that it should be First, I will address a couple of the points that the possible to make not just this but many more profitable hon. Gentleman made. I assure him that I am happy to investments on the basis of public sector insurance or discuss the process with him and for him to meet my financing, I beg the hon. Member for Luton South to officials to see how it is progressing. He is a very withdraw the amendment. It would tie the hands of the honourable individual and he will respect the fact that Government at a very important moment, when we because some aspects of what we are dealing with are need exactly this kind of infrastructure and exactly this extremely sensitive and are being watched closely by a kind of investment in water not just for apprentices but number of organisations and, not least, the markets, we for economic growth. have to be extremely careful. I am pleased about how The way to proceed is with a serious, responsible things are going. He also has the opportunity to meet approach to infrastructure investment, which will not representatives of Thames Water, Ofwat and others to be delivered through the kind of statutory committees express his concerns on this and related issues, and I that the hon. Gentleman proposes. know that he has already done so. The hon. Gentleman asked which Ministers will make Miss McIntosh: I shall limit my remarks and take a the final decision on such matters. The Secretaries of slightly different view from that of my hon. Friend the State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and for Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart), Communities and Local Government will jointly take because I believe that there is some merit in parliamentary decisions on water and waste water applications. The scrutiny and that, often, we have better laws as a result. Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government Given that there is all-party and, indeed, consumer will take the lead on considering the Planning Inspectorate’s support for what the measure and, in particular clause 2(6), recommendations. My officials are due to meet his is trying to achieve, I am sure that in moving amendment officials shortly to agree the process, and I am happy to 2 the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) is keep the hon. Gentleman informed as that develops. not seeking to delay matters through parliamentary scrutiny. I should like to outline the practical problems associated with accepting the amendments. Together with advisers, Will the hon. Gentleman consider this approach, the Treasury, Infrastructure UK and Ofwat, we are however, which I have shared with the Leader of the engaged in discussions with Thames Water over the House? When we have—as was mentioned in the debate financing of the Thames tunnel project. Those discussions about the first group of amendments—parliamentary are focused on reaching the right balance between protecting scrutiny of draft orders under the Flood and Water bill payers and taxpayers and ensuring that the project Management Act 2010, for example, is it not unsatisfactory can be financed and delivered by the private sector. By that all we are required to do is to vote for or against the necessity, a project of such scale and complexity as the statutory instrument? Would there not be some merit in Thames tunnel involves a complicated and lengthy being able to amend it? negotiating process. I can foresee a host of practical I have chaired and served on Statutory Instrument problems in stopping that process at the point at which Committees, as all of us have been privileged to do from we feel that a reasonable package has been reached, time to time—although I hope that the Whips do not which balances the risks and enables the project to be take that as a bid to serve on any in the future. As a delivered, publishing a report on apprenticeships and a humble Back Bencher, however, I believe—and this is further cost-benefit appraisal, and then translating the where I part company with my hon. Friend the Member agreement reached into a statutory instrument for debate for Penrith and The Border—that if we are going to in both Houses. Even if we can find a way around have scrutiny we should be able to amend statutory addressing potentially commercially confidential material instruments. I find it unsatisfactory that we may have an in a published draft order, that additional regulatory 319 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 320 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill process would prolong the completion of the project the progress to date, such as last November’s publications and add cost that is ultimately paid for by the customer. on the strategic and economic case and the cost-benefit It would also create an extra layer of risk, with likely analysis. implications for securing and retaining the interest of I am sympathetic to the concerns of the hon. Member investors in the project. for Luton South about jobs and growth, as are all hon. Members. Jobs and growth are central to the Government’s Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): Is it not also the agenda. I agree that large projects such as the Thames case that, almost of necessity, Parliament will scrutinise tunnel have a significant role to play. As I explained on very large infrastructure projects in one way or another Second Reading, Thames Water estimates that the project anyway? will directly employ about 4,200 people in construction and related sectors. I understand that Thames Water Richard Benyon: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. has 40 apprentices in training, and that future intakes It is worth reminding ourselves of the kind of project are planned to maintain that number. Thames Water’s that we are talking about. Subsection 1(a) refers to tunnel team actively support Crossrail’s Tunnelling and “the construction of water or sewerage infrastructure” Underground Construction academy, to which the hon. and subsection 1(b) refers to Gentleman referred, which is currently training and gaining employment for 70 apprentices a year. The “existing water or sewerage infrastructure.” Thames tunnel project is also committed to following We have therefore narrowed this down to a particular the Crossrail model of specifying in its contracts the area of work. Subsection (2) refers to number of apprentices who will be employed in “exceptionally large or complex works.” the contractors’ work force. I hope that that gives him Such an item of expenditure could not just sail under the reassurance that he needs. the radar of due parliamentary process. I appreciate the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith Rory Stewart: Does my hon. Friend accept, as a and The Border (Rory Stewart) who eloquently described general philosophical principle, that one should not the necessity for smooth operating in such circumstances, micro-manage the detail of a Bill to the extent that is but we are talking about major projects that cannot called for in the amendments, because one would end avoid high levels of scrutiny, and I cannot see that up with endless and voluminous legislation? Does he adding an extra tier to that process would be effective. agree that the issues of apprenticeships and financing are better left to the contracting authorities and to the In the event of the statutory instrument being rejected administration of civil servants, and that if too much of by Parliament, we would have to return to the negotiating this micro-managing happens on sectoral issues and table and reopen discussions. That might put in jeopardy specific projects, Parliament will be mired in complexity? the interest of investors that had previously been attracted to the project. That would add further costs, call into Richard Benyon: I agree with my hon. Friend. It question the project’s viability and ultimately delay would be wrong to put in the Bill requirements that action to tackle the significant environmental problems might or might not suit today’s world, but that would be that, in the case that is the driver for the Bill, are being wrong for the future. The Government, in negotiations caused by excessive sewage discharges into the Thames. with private sector companies and through the planning That would, in turn, increase the risk of infraction fines process, are involved at many levels in the development against the UK for non-compliance with the urban of such contracts. We can impose our desires and our waste water treatment directive. will. The companies and the Government can be held to account if they fail on these matters. I believe that to prescribe to such a level of detail would be wrong. 4.15 pm Thames Water is holding the launch for a jobs and In addition to the practical problems that I have skills report in the House on 20 March, to which MPs described, I do not believe that the additional layer of are invited. Its jobs and skills forum will promote the scrutiny is necessary. As I mentioned when we discussed work that it is carrying out in this area. Thames Water the proposed amendments to clause 1, putting a further will also look to gain from the experiences of other requirement in the Bill for detailed approval in relation large-scale infrastructure projects. It is right for the to the use of financial assistance powers is unjustified Government to support and encourage Thames Water when there are existing mechanisms for scrutinising and in those efforts. challenging the exercise of financial powers by Departments. Apprenticeships are central to ensuring that our work In addition to Treasury monitoring and control of force are equipped to help build economic growth. expenditure, Government spending is subject to the There are huge opportunities in the project, if we can usual estimates procedure. As always, DEFRA spending embrace them, for Londoners who are seeking work would be subject to the scrutiny of the Environment, and training to be involved in a really high-profile Food and Rural Affairs Committee and, if it so wished, scheme for a number of years. They can then take the the Public Accounts Committee. benefits into other sectors and industries. However, we Given the significance of the Thames tunnel project do not feel the need for further legislation to provide and the significance that any project that fitted the that encouragement. Nor is it necessary or appropriate wording in the Bill would have, I have no doubt that to require the terms and conditions involved to be hon. Members will be especially vigilant in ensuring included in a statutory instrument. For that reason, I that, as a project proceeds, the House will give proper ask hon. Members not to press the amendments. attention to any events where scrutiny is necessary and appropriate. We have already made statements to the Gavin Shuker: I thank all Members who have participated House on the Thames tunnel project and have published in the debate. I listened carefully to what the Minister several documents explaining our involvement in it and said, and I am slightly concerned that he and the hon. 321 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 322 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Gavin Shuker] Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Heyes, David Owen, Albert Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) Hillier, Meg Paisley, Ian have tried to talk up amendment 3, a modest amendment, Hilling, Julie Pearce, Teresa into a big, overbearing piece of regulation. It is not. It Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen would not just apply to this project but protect us in Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Hoey, Kate Raynsford, rh Mr Nick future, and I gave a clear commitment to the Thames Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Jamie tunnel throughout my speech. Hopkins, Kelvin Reeves, Rachel I listened to what the Minister said about apprenticeships, Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma and I believe that his heart is in absolutely the right Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan place. We will all want to pull together to ensure that the Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Thames tunnel project, which I am certain will go James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, John ahead, employs apprentices and ensures that there is a Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey legacy for London. I will therefore not press amendment 3, Jarvis, Dan Rotheram, Steve but I do seek to press amendment 2 to a Division. Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Mr Frank Johnson, Diana Roy, Lindsay Question put, That the amendment be made. Jones, Graham Ruane, Chris The Committee divided: Ayes 231, Noes 300. Jones, Helen Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Jones, Mr Kevan Sarwar, Anas Division No. 492] [4.21 pm Jones, Susan Elan Seabeck, Alison Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shannon, Jim AYES Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr Virendra Abbott, Ms Diane Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kendall, Liz Sheerman, Mr Barry Abrahams, Debbie David, Mr Wayne Khan, rh Sadiq Sheridan, Jim Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Shuker, Gavin Alexander, Heidi De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Simpson, David Ali, Rushanara Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Skinner, Mr Dennis Allen, Mr Graham Dobbin, Jim Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Slaughter, Mr Andy Anderson, Mr David Dobson, rh Frank Long, Naomi Smith, rh Mr Andrew Austin, Ian Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew Smith, Angela Bailey, Mr Adrian Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lucas, Caroline Smith, Nick Bain, Mr William Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Owen Balls, rh Ed Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mahmood, Shabana Spellar, rh Mr John Barron, rh Mr Kevin Doran, Mr Frank Malhotra, Seema Straw, rh Mr Jack Benn, rh Hilary Dowd, Jim Mann, John Stringer, Graham Berger, Luciana Doyle, Gemma Marsden, Mr Gordon Stuart, Ms Gisela Betts, Mr Clive Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Tami, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Blackman-Woods, Roberta Dugher, Michael Thomas, Mr Gareth McClymont, Gregg Blears, rh Hazel Durkan, Mark Thornberry, Emily McCrea, Dr William Blomﬁeld, Paul Eagle, Ms Angela Timms, rh Stephen McDonagh, Siobhain Blunkett, rh Mr David Eagle, Maria Trickett, Jon Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Elliott, Julie McFadden, rh Mr Pat Turner, Karl Brennan, Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Jim Twigg, Derek Brown, Lyn Engel, Natascha McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Umunna, Mr Chuka Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Esterson, Bill McKechin, Ann Vaz, rh Keith Brown, Mr Russell Evans, Chris McKenzie, Mr Iain Bryant, Chris Farrelly, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Vaz, Valerie Buck, Ms Karen Field, rh Mr Frank Meacher, rh Mr Michael Walley, Joan Burden, Richard Fitzpatrick, Jim Mearns, Ian Watson, Mr Tom Burnham, rh Andy Flello, Robert Michael, rh Alun Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Alan Flint, rh Caroline Miliband, rh David Whitehead, Dr Alan Caton, Martin Flynn, Paul Miller, Andrew Wicks, rh Malcolm Chapman, Mrs Jenny Fovargue, Yvonne Mitchell, Austin Williamson, Chris Clark, Katy Francis, Dr Hywel Morden, Jessica Wilson, Phil Clarke, rh Mr Tom Gardiner, Barry Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Winnick, Mr David Clwyd, rh Ann Gilmore, Sheila Morris, Grahame M. Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Coaker, Vernon Glass, Pat (Easington) Wood, Mike Coffey, Ann Glindon, Mrs Mary Mudie, Mr George Woodcock, John Munn, Meg Connarty, Michael Godsiff, Mr Roger Wright, David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Cooper, Rosie Goggins, rh Paul Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, rh Yvette Goodman, Helen Murray, Ian Corbyn, Jeremy Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Tellers for the Ayes: Crausby, Mr David Greenwood, Lilian Nash, Pamela Tom Blenkinsop and Creagh, Mary Griffith, Nia O’Donnell, Fiona Mr David Hamilton Creasy, Stella Gwynne, Andrew Cruddas, Jon Hain, rh Mr Peter NOES Cryer, John Hamilton, Fabian Adams, Nigel Amess, Mr David Cunningham, Mr Jim Hanson, rh Mr David Afriyie, Adam Andrew, Stuart Cunningham, Tony Harman, rh Ms Harriet Aldous, Peter Bacon, Mr Richard Curran, Margaret Healey, rh John Danczuk, Simon Hendrick, Mark Alexander, rh Danny Baker, Steve 323 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 324 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Baldry, Tony Evennett, Mr David Knight, rh Mr Greg Pritchard, Mark Baldwin, Harriett Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, John Barclay, Stephen Fallon, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic Barker, Gregory Farron, Tim Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark Baron, Mr John Field, Mark Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr Barwell, Gavin Foster, rh Mr Don Lansley, rh Mr Andrew John Bebb, Guto Fox,rhDrLiam Laws, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Beith, rh Sir Alan Francois, rh Mr Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Bellingham, Mr Henry Mark Lee, Jessica Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Benyon, Richard Freeman, George Lee, Dr Phillip Rogerson, Dan Beresford, Sir Paul Freer, Mike Leech, Mr John Rosindell, Andrew Berry, Jake Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Mr Edward Rudd, Amber Bingham, Andrew Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte Ruffley, Mr David Binley, Mr Brian Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Russell, Sir Bob Birtwistle, Gordon Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Blackman, Bob George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sanders, Mr Adrian Boles, Nick Gibb, Mr Nick Lidington, rh Mr David Sandys, Laura Bone, Mr Peter Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Scott, Mr Lee Bottomley, Sir Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lloyd, Stephen Selous, Andrew Bradley, Karen Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Shapps, rh Grant Brady, Mr Graham Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Brake, rh Tom Gove, rh Michael Loughton, Tim Simmonds, Mark Bray, Angie Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Simpson, Mr Keith Bridgen, Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Skidmore, Chris Brine, Steve Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Brokenshire, James Grayling, rh Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Henry Bruce, Fiona Green, Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Julian Buckland, Mr Robert Greening, rh Justine Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Burley, Mr Aidan Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Soames, rh Nicholas Burns, Conor Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Burns, rh Mr Simon Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Burrowes, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Burstow, Paul Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Burt, Lorely Hames, Duncan McVey, Esther Stevenson, John Byles, Dan Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mensch, Louise Stewart, Iain Cairns, Alun Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Stewart, Rory Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Matthew Mercer, Patrick Streeter, Mr Gary Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hands, Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Stride, Mel Carmichael, Neil Harper, Mr Mark Miller, Maria Stuart, Mr Graham Carswell, Mr Douglas Harris, Rebecca Mills, Nigel Sturdy, Julian Cash, Mr William Hart, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swales, Ian Chishti, Rehman Heald, Oliver Moore, rh Michael Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Chope, Mr Christopher Heath, Mr David Morgan, Nicky Swinson, Jo Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, Anne Marie Swire, rh Mr Hugo Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hemming, John Morris, James Syms, Mr Robert Clegg, rh Mr Nick Henderson, Gordon Mosley, Stephen Thurso, John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Mowat, David Timpson, Mr Edward Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Tomlinson, Justin Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Tredinnick, David Colvile, Oliver Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Truss, Elizabeth Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks Turner, Mr Andrew Crabb, Stephen Holloway, Mr Adam Newton, Sarah Tyrie, Mr Andrew Crockart, Mike Hopkins, Kris Nokes, Caroline Uppal, Paul Crouch, Tracey Horwood, Martin Norman, Jesse Vaizey, Mr Edward Davey, rh Mr Edward Howarth, Mr Gerald Nuttall, Mr David Vara, Mr Shailesh Davies, David T. C. Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Vickers, Martin (Monmouth) Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris Opperman, Guy Walker, Mr Charles de Bois, Nick Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ottaway, Richard Wallace, Mr Ben Dinenage, Caroline Huppert, Dr Julian Paice, rh Mr James Weatherley, Mike Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hurd, Mr Nick Parish, Neil Webb, Steve Dorries, Nadine Jackson, Mr Stewart Patel, Priti Wharton, James Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Paterson, rh Mr Wheeler, Heather Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Owen White, Chris Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penrose, John Whittaker, Craig Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Gareth Percy, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Ellison, Jane Johnson, Joseph Perry, Claire Wiggin, Bill Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Willetts, rh Mr David Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Williams, Mr Mark Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Williams, Roger Evans, Graham Kelly, Chris Poulter, Dr Daniel Williams, Stephen Evans, Jonathan Kirby, Simon Prisk, Mr Mark Williamson, Gavin 325 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 326 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Willott, Jenny Young, rh Sir George Ellman, Mrs Louise McFadden, rh Mr Pat Wilson, Mr Rob Zahawi, Nadhim Engel, Natascha McGovern, Jim Wollaston, Dr Sarah Esterson, Bill McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Wright, Jeremy Tellers for the Noes: Evans, Chris McKechin, Ann Wright, Simon James Duddridge and Farrelly, Paul McKenzie, Mr Iain Yeo, Mr Tim Mark Hunter Field, rh Mr Frank McKinnell, Catherine Fitzpatrick, Jim Meacher, rh Mr Michael Question accordingly negatived. Flello, Robert Mearns, Ian Flint, rh Caroline Michael, rh Alun Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Flynn, Paul Miliband, rh David Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, Andrew Francis, Dr Hywel Mitchell, Austin Gardiner, Barry Morden, Jessica New Clause 1 Gilmore, Sheila Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Glass, Pat Morris, Grahame M. WATER COMPANY SOCIAL TARIFFS Glindon, Mrs Mary (Easington) ‘(1) The Secretary of State shall provide in regulations for the Godsiff, Mr Roger Mudie, Mr George introduction of minimum standards for water company social Goggins, rh Paul Munn, Meg tariffs, by 1 April 2013. Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Mr Jim Green, Kate Murray, Ian (2) Regulations made under subsection (1) above shall be Greenwood, Lilian Nandy, Lisa made by statutory instrument and may not be made unless a draft has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each Griffith, Nia Nash, Pamela House of Parliament. Gwynne, Andrew O’Donnell, Fiona Hain, rh Mr Peter Onwurah, Chi (3) Ofwat shall publish 12 months after the passing of this Act Hamilton, Fabian Owen, Albert and every year thereafter a league table of water companies Hanson, rh Mr David Paisley, Ian reporting the performance of the provision of social tariffs and Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pearce, Teresa the number of households spending more than 3 per cent. and more than 5 per cent. of their disposable income on water Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby bills.’.—(Gavin Shuker.) Hendrick, Mark Pound, Stephen Hepburn, Mr Stephen Qureshi, Yasmin Brought up, and read the First time. Heyes, David Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Hillier, Meg Reed, Mr Jamie Hilling, Julie Reeves, Rachel The Committee divided: Ayes 226, Noes 297. Hodge, rh Margaret Reynolds, Emma Division No. 493] [4.35 pm Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reynolds, Jonathan Hoey, Kate Riordan, Mrs Linda AYES Hood, Mr Jim Robertson, John Hopkins, Kelvin Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Abbott, Ms Diane Coffey, Ann Howarth, rh Mr George Rotheram, Steve Abrahams, Debbie Connarty, Michael Hunt, Tristram Roy, Mr Frank Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Lindsay Alexander, Heidi Cooper, rh Yvette James, Mrs Siân C. Ruane, Chris Ali, Rushanara Corbyn, Jeremy Jamieson, Cathy Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Allen, Mr Graham Crausby, Mr David Jarvis, Dan Sarwar, Anas Anderson, Mr David Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Seabeck, Alison Austin, Ian Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Shannon, Jim Bailey, Mr Adrian Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Sharma, Mr Virendra Bain, Mr William Cryer, John Jones, Helen Sheerman, Mr Barry Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Mr Kevan Sheridan, Jim Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cunningham, Tony Jones, Susan Elan Shuker, Gavin Benn, rh Hilary Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Simpson, David Berger, Luciana Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Skinner, Mr Dennis Betts, Mr Clive Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kendall, Liz Slaughter, Mr Andy Blackman-Woods, Roberta David, Mr Wayne Khan, rh Sadiq Smith, rh Mr Andrew Blears, rh Hazel Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Smith, Angela Blomﬁeld, Paul De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Nick Blunkett, rh Mr David Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Owen Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Dobbin, Jim Lloyd, Tony Spellar, rh Mr John Brennan, Kevin Dobson, rh Frank Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Straw, rh Mr Jack Brown, Lyn Docherty, Thomas Long, Naomi Stringer, Graham Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Brown, Mr Russell Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Love, Mr Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Bryant, Chris Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Buck, Ms Karen Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth Burden, Richard Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Thornberry, Emily Burnham, rh Andy Doyle, Gemma Malhotra, Seema Timms, rh Stephen Campbell, Mr Alan Dromey, Jack Mann, John Trickett, Jon Caton, Martin Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Turner, Karl Chapman, Mrs Jenny Durkan, Mark McCabe, Steve Twigg, Derek Clark, Katy Eagle, Ms Angela McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka Clarke, rh Mr Tom Eagle, Maria McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith Clwyd, rh Ann Edwards, Jonathan McCrea, Dr William Vaz, Valerie Coaker, Vernon Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Walley, Joan 327 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 328 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Watson, Mr Tom Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Watts, Mr Dave Wood, Mike Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa Whitehead, Dr Alan Woodcock, John Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Wicks, rh Malcolm Wright, David Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Williams, Hywel Wright, Mr Iain Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Williamson, Chris Tellers for the Ayes: Hollobone, Mr Philip Newton, Sarah Wilson, Phil Mr David Hamilton and Holloway, Mr Adam Nokes, Caroline Winnick, Mr David Tom Blenkinsop Hopkins, Kris Norman, Jesse Horwood, Martin Nuttall, Mr David Howarth, Mr Gerald Offord, Mr Matthew NOES Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Adams, Nigel Davey, rh Mr Edward Hughes, rh Simon Opperman, Guy Afriyie, Adam Davies, David T. C. Huhne, rh Chris Ottaway, Richard Aldous, Peter (Monmouth) Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Paice, rh Mr James Alexander, rh Danny Davies, Glyn Hunter, Mark Parish, Neil Amess, Mr David de Bois, Nick Huppert, Dr Julian Patel, Priti Andrew, Stuart Dinenage, Caroline Hurd, Mr Nick Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bacon, Mr Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jackson, Mr Stewart Penrose, John Baker, Steve Dorries, Nadine James, Margot Percy, Andrew Baldry, Tony Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, Sajid Perry, Claire Baldwin, Harriett Drax, Richard Jenkin, Mr Bernard Phillips, Stephen Barclay, Stephen Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Gareth Pickles, rh Mr Eric Barker, Gregory Ellison, Jane Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Baron, Mr John Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Barwell, Gavin Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Bebb, Guto Eustice, George Kelly, Chris Pritchard, Mark Beith, rh Sir Alan Evans, Graham Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Bellingham, Mr Henry Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Mr Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Benyon, Richard Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Reckless, Mark Beresford, Sir Paul Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Redwood, rh Mr John Berry, Jake Fallon, Michael Lamb, Norman Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bingham, Andrew Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Reid, Mr Alan Binley, Mr Brian Field, Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Birtwistle, Gordon Foster, rh Mr Don Laws, rh Mr David Rogerson, Dan Blackman, Bob Fox,rhDrLiam Leadsom, Andrea Rosindell, Andrew Boles, Nick Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Rudd, Amber Bone, Mr Peter Freeman, George Lee, Dr Phillip Ruffley, Mr David Bottomley, Sir Peter Freer, Mike Leech, Mr John Russell, Sir Bob Bradley, Karen Fullbrook, Lorraine Leigh, Mr Edward Rutley, David Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte Sanders, Mr Adrian Brake, rh Tom Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Sandys, Laura Bray, Angie Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Scott, Mr Lee Bridgen, Andrew George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Selous, Andrew Brine, Steve Gibb, Mr Nick Lidington, rh Mr David Shapps, rh Grant Brokenshire, James Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shelbrooke, Alec Bruce, Fiona Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lopresti, Jack Simmonds, Mark Buckland, Mr Robert Goldsmith, Zac Lord, Jonathan Simpson, Mr Keith Burley, Mr Aidan Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Skidmore, Chris Burns, Conor Gove, rh Michael Lumley, Karen Smith, Miss Chloe Burns, rh Mr Simon Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Smith, Henry Burrowes, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Julian Burstow, Paul Gray, Mr James Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Sir Robert Burt, Lorely Grayling, rh Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Soames, rh Nicholas Byles, Dan Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Cairns, Alun Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Jason Spencer, Mr Mark Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Stanley, rh Sir John Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Stephenson, Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stevenson, John Cash, Mr William Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Iain Chishti, Rehman Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Stewart, Rory Chope, Mr Christopher Hames, Duncan Mensch, Louise Streeter, Mr Gary Clark, rh Greg Hammond, rh Mr Philip Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hammond, Stephen Mercer, Patrick Stuart, Mr Graham Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hancock, Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Stunell, Andrew Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hands, Greg Miller, Maria Sturdy, Julian Coffey, Dr Thérèse Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Swales, Ian Collins, Damian Harris, Rebecca Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Colvile, Oliver Hart, Simon Moore, rh Michael Swinson, Jo Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Oliver Morgan, Nicky Swire, rh Mr Hugo Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Morris, Anne Marie Syms, Mr Robert Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James Thurso, John Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward 329 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 330 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Tomlinson, Justin Whittingdale, Mr John I shall refrain from discussing the need for the tunnel Tredinnick, David Wiggin, Bill today in order not to repeat myself, as on Monday the Truss, Elizabeth Willetts, rh Mr David House will debate the waste water national policy statement, Turner, Mr Andrew Williams, Mr Mark which includes a statement of need. On Second Reading, Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Members rightly mentioned their constituents’ concern Uppal, Paul Williams, Stephen about the potential local impacts of the tunnel’s Vaizey, Mr Edward Williamson, Gavin construction; I assure them that they and their constituents Vara, Mr Shailesh Wilson, Mr Rob Vickers, Martin can provide input on such issues at all appropriate Wollaston, Dr Sarah stages of the planning process. Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wright, Jeremy Walker, Mr Charles Wright, Simon I also understand the concern that has been expressed Wallace, Mr Ben Yeo, Mr Tim about the breadth of the powers in the Bill, but those Weatherley, Mike Young, rh Sir George powers are by no means unusual in containing flexibility Webb, Steve Zahawi, Nadhim for the purpose of future circumstances, and they do Wharton, James not remove the need and opportunity for proper Wheeler, Heather Tellers for the Noes: parliamentary scrutiny of Government spending plans White, Chris Jenny Willott and in the usual way. Whittaker, Craig James Duddridge Our water White Paper, “Water for Life”, sent the strong message that we need to be prepared for an Question accordingly negatived. uncertain future. The current drought is just a small The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. taste of what may follow if we do not act to make our Bill reported, without amendment. water supply and sewerage systems more resilient. That will require continuing investment in infrastructure, as Third Reading well as action by all of us to conserve water. As I have said, we are confident that our system of 4.48 pm economic regulation can ensure that bills remain affordable generally, while the existing WaterSure scheme, together The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for with targeted social tariffs and other support delivered Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): by water companies, can help those in need. More than I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. £90 billion has been invested since privatisation, while I begin by thanking all Members who have contributed bills remain on average around £1 per day. That is to the debates on Second Reading and in Committee testimony to the strength of the current system. However, today. I pay particular tribute to the hon. Member for exceptional circumstances do arise. We have seen it in Luton South (Gavin Shuker), who was decent in consulting the south-west, and we have seen it with the Thames me and put forward articulately how he viewed the Bill tunnel. and how he believed it could be changed. I am sure we Of course, infrastructure investment does not just will have many further discussions over future legislation. bring cost. As I said earlier, jobs and growth are Many right hon. and hon. Members contributed to the central to the Government’s agenda. Thames Water debate. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the currently estimates that the Thames tunnel project Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), who would directly employ around 4,200 people in the spoke with her customary knowledge on this issue. construction and related sectors, and would provide For the record, I would like to correct an impression I several thousand secondary jobs in the supply chain might have given in Committee about the funding of and the wider London economy. That is not in itself a water bills in the south-west. I can confirm the Government’s reason to support the construction of the tunnel, for firm commitment that the funding will continue until obvious reasons, but it is nevertheless a big win for the end of the next spending round. The Treasury will London and for the country in terms of what it can do fund the bills until the end of the current round, and the for our skills base and our economy. Thames Water impact on DEFRA’s budget in the next round will of aims to ensure that local workers make up 20% of its course be a matter for us to discuss. tunnel construction work force. The Bill is straightforward in its intent and drafting. I am grateful for the swift passage of the Bill, and for It fulfils two spending commitments set out by the the many thoughtful contributions that have been Chancellor in his autumn statement, both of which made to our debates. As a number of Members have were designed to reduce the costs of infrastructure noted, there has been a cross-party effort by those investment falling on water and sewerage customers. representing constituencies in the south-west to keep the issue of high water bills in the region on the political Through the amendments that we have discussed agenda. I am pleased that Members in all parts of the today—which I have considered carefully—ran a common House also recognise the need to deal with the sewage thread: a desire to limit and delay Government action discharges that are sullying the most important river to help hard-pressed bill payers. After so many years of going through one of the most important cities in the debate, we want to get on with funding South West world. Water to enable it to cut bills for its household customers. We have a separate package to deal with wider affordability I commend the Bill to the House. problems. We also want to reassure potential investors in the Thames tideway tunnel at an early stage that the 4.54 pm Government are willing to provide contingent financial Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): I agree that we have support for exceptional project risk when that offers the had a very good debate on the Bill. This week’s drought best value for money for Thames Water customers and announcement illustrates the increase in weather volatility, taxpayers. however. If there are floods in Australia, it is likely that 331 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 332 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill there will be droughts in other parts of the planet and 1 was intended to be helpful. I am sorry that the we are going to have to plan for a lot more climate Minister thought it an unacceptable regulatory burden change disruptions. on water companies. As constituency MPs, we are all mindful of the fact When Labour was in government, we found league that this April water bills will be rising by an average of tables to be a very effective benchmarking tool in driving 5.7%. At the same time as those bills drop on to up performance in public services—schools and customers’ doormats, 20 million people—about a third hospitals—allowing consumers, customers and taxpayers of our population—will be faced with a hosepipe ban to understand where their money goes and where they across many parts of the country. The Bill puts in place are getting value for money. League tables provide assistance for the people in the south-west, however, transparency and equity, and in providing a public and thereby corrects an historic injustice. It also gives service—I cannot think of a more crucial infrastructure powers to provide finance for infrastructure investment. one than water—it is very important to end the postcode We shall not oppose it on Third Reading, therefore. lottery on people’s eligibility for financial assistance. I want to reflect on some of the Minister’s comments Labour Members think that in future financing projects about our amendments. Amendments 1 and 2 would we need to be very careful about the burden we place on have introduced the principle of parliamentary scrutiny. water customers, and we use the idea of league tables as He said Parliament does not examine spending decisions a benchmarking tool. Many companies use benchmarking by Government, but, of course, Parliament does do groups, which, on an anonymised basis, provide data to that. Indeed, next week we will have the Budget and a researchers, with the companies then getting the data lengthy Finance Bill that will examine Government back so that they can benchmark their performance. We decisions in detail. do not see anything wrong, or any regulatory burden for the companies, if these companies are forced, by the The Water Industry Act 1991 stated that water companies regulator, to disclose what they are doing, so that we could get money from the Government only if that was can bring the poor performers up to the level of the best in the interests of national security, and that if they and spur the best performers on to innovation on social were ever to receive money from Government, that tariffs. should be reported to Parliament. Under this Bill, that important principle of parliamentary oversight of the We know that the Thames tunnel will add £70 to spending of considerable sums of taxpayers’ money is £80 to Londoners’ bills. Obviously, a number of questions being broken. have been raised about that, but I am concerned that the House may not have a large number of opportunities to We know that the assistance to the south-west will debate this infrastructure project in the future, and so cost £400 million over the seven or eight years of the we need to make sure that proper consultation takes scheme. The Minister said it was “unimaginable” that place. The House has debated the Crossrail Bill, which any other water companies and customers would get was a hybrid Bill—I made my comments clear on public money. [Interruption.] I listened to the Minister’s Second Reading as to why this was not a hybrid Bill. remarks, and he used the word “unimaginable.” He said The Thames tunnel will create up to 4,000 direct jobs money would not be “sloshing” about and that the and our final amendment sought to ensure that the Government would not be “doling out” money to the benefit of that £4 billion investment accrues to London water companies and their customers. However, in 1991 it and Londoners, as they will be paying for it. was unimaginable to Ministers in the then Conservative Let me cite the example of what I found when I Government that any water companies should ever travelled to the Stade de France in Paris, in 1996, and receive money, which is why they stated that very important met people from Bouygues, the big French construction principle in the 1991 Act. We must not forget that the company which was building the stadium. The French 22 water and sewerage companies are, of course, monopoly Government had taken the decision to build it in Paris providers. At a time when bills are going up and hosepipe Saint-Denis, a very poor suburb. This was about 16 years bans are being introduced in what is a monopoly industry, ago, a long time ago, but I was shown the number of we now have to explain to our constituents why this apprenticeships at levels 4, 5 and 6—we are talking money is being provided. about master’s-level qualifications—that would accrue The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old throughout that construction project. As my party perhaps Southwark (Simon Hughes) talked about the debt to did in government, this Government are potentially equity ratio of Thames Water, as well as the structuring letting construction companies off the hook by saying of the company and the packaging up of debt. Government that it is an unacceptable regulatory burden to ask them infrastructure investment bonds might be useful in this to do more on apprenticeships. Where does the 20% regard. We heard this morning about the new 100-year apprenticeships figure come from? Over a four-year bonds. They could be a prime candidate to be the project, why can we not get bright young undergraduates long-term investment vehicles to finance large infrastructure in, give them the on-the-job training and make sure that projects such as the Thames Water tunnel. they then become the next generation of London’s civil This Bill’s title includes the phrase “Financial Assistance”, engineers? and we know that the groups that are most vulnerable If I may, I shall leave the last word to my hon. Friend to water poverty are single parents, pensioners and the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter). He jobseekers. However, only a third of such eligible households talked about his young constituent rowing on the Thames, access the current WaterSure scheme. We want to see who said that we have a duty to protect our river in this much more action from water companies to ensure great world city and that his generation is looking to that the most vulnerable access either national or company our generation to build something amazing. We hope social tariffs. As my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton that that is what will result from today’s discussion, and West (Julie Hilling) said, we should not expect water that we will protect our great global capital city and one companies to be philanthropists, and so our new clause of the world’s great rivers for the next century. 333 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 334 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill 5.4 pm part of the broader Bill that we are still waiting for, but this Bill will enable the Government to meet the Miss McIntosh: It is a pleasure and a privilege to commitment given in the water White Paper and confirmed follow the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). in the Chancellor’s autumn statement. We have had a good debate and I warmly congratulate The Committee stands ready, willing and enthusiastic my hon. Friend the Minister on delivering this Bill and and is looking forward to pre-legislative scrutiny of the the official Opposition on their constructive approach. draft water Bill. It is a matter of some regret that that I understand their request for greater parliamentary Bill will be delayed, particularly as regards affordability. scrutiny and their case was well argued, sincere and well The water White Paper proposes that companies should meant. In relation to clause 1, the explanatory notes be encouraged to introduce company social tariffs to state in paragraph 12: help poorer customers, funded by a cross-subsidy from “The power is discretionary and may be exercised for such the water company’s other customers. The Minister said reasons as the Secretary of State feels desirable.” that there are many tools at the disposal of water Any parliamentarian will relish the opportunity of companies, but it is appropriate that we should consider scrutinising such orders and it need not take long. the suggestions made in the Anna Walker review. Unfortunately, the Opposition failed in their quest. Water affordability is increasingly becoming an issue. The Bill covers a number of important matters. On Ofwat figures show that 11% of households spend more the affordability of South West Water bills and funding, than 5% of their income on their water and sewerage I take this opportunity to thank my hon. Friend for his bill, and we now hear about water poverty as well as remarks and the clarification. I understand that the about fuel poverty.Company social tariffs can be introduced commitment is there to fund the South West Water bill only where they have the broad support of the company’s until the end of the next spending round. I personally customer base. Alternative approaches would be to will pledge—I am sure others will do so, too—to give provide Government funding for social tariffs or to him any support we can in his discussions about the operate customer cross-subsidy at a national level. I am funding with the Treasury. sure we will have the opportunity to explore those ideas in the wider Bill. Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I endorse what my hon. Friend says about the Treasury, because Water companies have called on the Government to the situation in the south-west will not go away. We have make available to them information regarding the customers 3% of the population and 30% of the beaches, and the who are most likely to be struggling with their bills—for beaches must be kept clean, which costs a lot of money. example, from Department for Work and Pensions data We will need help in the future, so if the Treasury could on benefits—to allow them better to target their social find that money we would be most obliged. tariffs. I listened carefully to what the Minister said and I am not sure that he was able to respond on this point, Miss McIntosh: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for but the sooner we can make that information available his support and I want to record how well represented the sooner we can extend these tariffs. I am delighted the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural that the Consumer Council for Water supported this Affairs has been in the debate. He obviously has a idea in the evidence that it recently gave to our Committee, particular interest in the south-west, and if the money is and the Government have said they are considering this available only until the end of this spending round, we suggestion. I hope we will not be hampered by data will then have to find the money for South West Water protection provisions. at the beginning of the next spending round. The powers It was shocking to learn in a Select Committee evidence are there and the Secretary of State has the discretion to session that bad debt in the water sector costs every extend the scheme to other areas, but, given the economic paying customer approximately £15 a year. A large part turmoil in which the country still finds itself, such a of the problem is the fact that there is no obligation on result seems highly unlikely. I shall watch this space landlords to provide details of their tenants, which with interest. means that water companies do not know who to bill I know that we will continue the discussion on the for their services. I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments. Thames tunnel on Monday when we debate the waste It is entirely appropriate to place a statutory obligation water national policy statement, but although it is an on landlords to provide details of their tenants or else extremely exciting project, we must not lose sight of the be held liable for water bills at their properties. There is fact that it is a giant project. Londoners and those of us an urgent for such measures, as were included in the who spend our working week in London should be Flood and Water Management Act 2010. Those provisions under no illusion about the fact that there will be a have not yet been implemented and the Government degree of disruption during its construction. I warmly have consulted on using a voluntary approach, which is welcome what my hon. Friend the Minister said about welcome, to encourage landlords to provide information the local work force. That is very good news for the rather than implementing the provisions in the 2010 Act. Thames tunnel and, obviously, if we have relevant expertise Clearly, that was a source of disappointment to water in Thirsk, Malton and Filey, I hope we can provide companies. In their evidence to the Select Committee, some of the work force for it. they said that was a rather retrograde step and argued The Committee has recently heard evidence on other that the Government should implement the provisions issues, including the White Paper “Water for Life”, the on landlord liability as soon as possible. I am delighted current drought, water efficiency, regulation and introducing to make that case to the Minister today. competition. As my hon. Friend knows, I have an The Minister is aware of my interest in and passion interest in implementing all the outstanding for SUDS—sustainable drainage systems—and I hope recommendations of the Michael Pitt report. There is that we will have early implementation of those. I pay some argument that this Bill should rightly have formed tribute to the work of Gray and the regulatory aspects 335 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 336 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill of the Gray review, to the work of Anna Walker in her people running our utilities who are more interested in review and to the work of Cave in his review. I hope that their shareholders and their remuneration than in the the Government will give some teeth to the welfare of their water customers. That gives us a particular recommendations not only on affordability, in the measures responsibility, and I cannot understand why the before the House today and in the wider Bill, but also Government will not accept what we propose. on water efficiency. This is precisely the time when we Water bills are rising, and any project designed to should be considering those measures because of the relieve the problems of sewer flooding in London or imminent drought. I know that the hon. Member for flooding into the Thames will cost a lot of money and Wakefield will be as concerned as I am that it is reaching will inevitably add to bills. That is another reason for parts of Yorkshire, including my area. That is something controlling costs and for protecting those who cannot on which we need to proceed apace. afford to pay. That was the purpose of new clause 1. I shall be delighted if we do not proceed to bring in Again, I cannot see why that has been rejected by the the provisions of the 2010 Act to reduce the 25,000 cubic Government at this stage. It is disappointing and shows metre limit in reservoirs to a 10,000 cubic metre limit. a lack of concern on the Government’s part about the My hon. Friend knows that I have been extremely potential financial impacts of these measures. patient—or not—in waiting for the provisions on reservoir safety. I hope they will come forward sooner rather than Another concern I have—I shall be brief, as I spoke later. We are going to need more reservoirs to be built. about this on Second Reading—is about those who Increasingly, engineers have a safety issue and I am sure would muddy the waters, so to speak, on the Thames that there would be a benefit from bringing forward tunnel project. If anybody can come up with a cheaper that safety review. project that will have the same or better effect, I am sure it would be extremely welcome and we would all like to I believe this Bill is a great success. It allows water hear about it. and sewerage companies to raise the finances and investment they need, particularly in relation to the south-west. We I shall say something nice about Mr Binnie, who has very much look forward to the wider draft Bill, but I had a bit of a rough ride in the debate. He is, after all, commend this Bill and wish it a speedy and fair passage speaking as a professional and, given his previous through the other place. association with the Thames study, as someone who cares genuinely about the quality of water in the Thames. 5.14 pm Even at his most sceptical, before his second road to Damascus conversion, he said: Mr Slaughter: Perhaps we should have more of these “The full tunnel would be the best thing for the river…Are short Bills as they provoke such agreement between the there cheaper alternatives for producing similar results?” two Front Benches. It is slightly surprising that there is such a degree of agreement, given that when the Bill is The same question was posed by the right hon. Member stripped down, it is about two specific initiatives. I have for Bermondsey and Old Southwark. Mr Binnie’s answer, heard the argument about whether it should be a private on mature and professional reflection, is no, there is or a hybrid Bill. It is a public Bill, but unless the not. Minister wishes to correct me, we are talking, first, I do not think that that means we should stop looking about the subsidy to South West Water customers, and for ways of bringing down the cost. Indeed, the cost has secondly, about the underwriting of the Thames tunnel already been reduced by adapting the route of the scheme, both of which potentially commit large sums of tunnel that was previously envisaged. I hope that the public money. Given the rhetoric about public money Government will take that on board and not simply that we have to hear all the time from the pattern book accept that the current route, the current CSO linkages of this Government, and given the concerns expressed and such matters are a done deal and a fait accompli. from the Opposition Front Bench, we can say that this That is important not only with regard to cost, but in must be an important measure or we would not be relation to the disruption that will be caused where the undertaking those commitments. CSOs are linked to the river—I declare an interest, as My first concern is about the Government’s reluctance one of those CSOs will be in my constituency and two to support the amendments tabled by the Opposition. I are close by. Substantial progress has been made, because am at a loss to understand why that is the case. I hear originally many more riverside sites were going to see what the Government say about the control of finance, that level of disruption. We are working on that all the as addressed in clause 2, but it seems to me, without time. Let us not stop working on that and trying to find going to the lengths to which the right hon. Member for solutions that will be less disruptive for local communities Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) went in London. in pinning down the fine detail, it is important that the As I have said, there are some loud naysayers. I am House continues to have a supervisory role and scrutiny afraid that the Selborne commission lacked all of the finance of projects, particularly given what we coherence. Its report did not even contain the proposal have heard about Thames Water, in whatever guise or for the half tunnel that was in its press release. Anyone ownership. The same would apply to other water companies. who has looked at that proposal will realise that it is I believe that the chief executive of Thames Water had a simply a nonstarter, and for those who live in west salary package of about £1.6 million last year. There is London, as my constituents and I do, it would be a a lot of money sloshing around in the utilities companies. complete nightmare. Not only would it cause greater Although I do not accept that the Thames tunnel is disruption, because there would have to be more storage over-specified or is doing more than is needed for the points—clearly, there is nowhere for the sewage to go job, we need to keep a close eye on the project. It is, as I once the tunnel fills up—but the sewage would stay in said, an unfortunate outcome of the previous Conservative the tunnel and fester for days or weeks before being Government’s privatisation strategy that we have, potentially, taken away by the existing sewerage system. I can see 337 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 338 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Mr Slaughter] I hope that the contribution of my right hon. Friend and others to today’s debate—it is reassuring having why it might have had a superficial attraction for the two learned Members watching what Thames Water right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, will do—indicates the manner in which the company because it would not have caused disruption in his will be handled and the manner in which concerns, one constituency, but sooner or later we would have had to could argue, might reasonably be raised about any face up to the fact that we must have something that benefit to its customers, because it is important that as works. this essential project is rolled out those central public When I hear the leader of my local council saying and taxpayer interests are clearly protected. I know that that we cannot afford to make the river clean enough my hon. Friend the Minister will be seized of that great for fish, or my neighbouring MP saying that rowers importance. and sailors are seeking a personal benefit by not having Given the comments that have been made, certainly the river flooded with sewage every week, I have to ask by the hon. Member for Wakefield and others, that they grow up a bit and are a little more sensible. As perhaps the Bill has been incorrectly titled now that we the shadow Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the reflect on it. Instead of being called the Water Industry Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) said when (Financial Assistance) Bill, it might have been called the quoting my constituent, Conor, a 15-year-old can put water customer (financial alleviation)—or (financial us right and tell us that we ought to have the courage protection)—Bill, because in effect that is how the Minister and enthusiasm that our forefathers had when they described the Bill’s purpose, and that is what the Bill designed the great civil engineering projects of the attempts to do. I do not propose on Third Reading to 19th century, and indeed the enthusiasm we have in introduce an amendment to the title of the Bill, but by supporting schemes such as Crossrail and High Speed making that point I hope simply to emphasise its importance 2, which are much bigger than the Thames tunnel. We in protecting customers and taxpayers. I certainly hope must bear in mind two slightly contradictory facts as we that that is taken forward. go forward. First, cost control is not just important as a Finally, I congratulate the Government, and especially matter of probity, but absolutely vital, particularly for the Minister, on the elegance, charm and good humour those on low incomes who will be paying the bills. with which he has brought forward the Bill. It explains Secondly, whatever version of the tunnel is finally approved, how the Bill was brought forward so quickly and effectively, it has to be fit for purpose not only now, but for the next with cross-party support and consensus. The debate has 100 years. been very constructive, and I am sure that the Bill will not be held up in another place but will be enacted 5.23 pm quickly and be to the benefit of customers in the south-west and in the Thames region. Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I congratulate all those Members, particularly those from the south-west, who have contributed and campaigned, in many cases 5.28 pm for two decades, to achieve what is certainly a positive Simon Hughes: Briefly, I too welcome our constructive outcome—I will not describe it as a triumph—and one debate over the past few weeks and the Minister’s that is richly deserved and will certainly alleviate some helpful response. I have two things to say. of the pressure that many South West Water customers First, I want to flag up the important point, made by have had to endure for a very long time. When the a Labour Front Bencher but supported by Members Government bring forward this measure, it is important across the House, that as we do big infrastructure that they look at ensuring that South West Water delivers projects we absolutely have a general interest to ensure it efficiently and effectively and reflect on the impact it that they maximise the development and use of our will have on water affordability for customers in the home-grown talents and skills—I do not say that in a south-west. racist way; I mean those people who live in this country, The hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), the who have skills to contribute and who are here—so that shadow Secretary of State, following the words of the for generations to come, one generation’s learning, whether Minister on the issue, implied—I think, because this has in engineering, building or all the rest, can be carried been a fairly consensual Third Reading—that there was on. If the Thames tunnel goes ahead, either in its somehow a risk of some of the money benefiting the currently proposed form or as a variation on it, I hope company itself. But I was reassured earlier in the debate that from the beginning we build in such a plan that, as by the Minister’s response, in that not one penny should it were, sweeps in the work force and the training with it. fall by accident or design into the pockets of the company If we do that, it will command much more public or its shareholders. It should not touch the sides as it confidence as well us giving us continuing skills and goes through to benefit customers, and it is really important opportunities for the future. that that—certainly the Minister’s reassurance—is delivered My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London after the Bill is enacted. and Westminster (Mark Field), who is not in his place My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey at the moment, was fully engaged in the earlier debate and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), through his about the financing of major projects and asked me amendments, raised some important concerns that I about the five-year cost-profit ratio figures for Thames know my hon. Friend the Minister will take on board as Water. I could not answer him at that point, but I have the contracts for the tunnel are let. I recognise that since had the figures checked, and I will put them on the issues of probity and the effectiveness of regulation, in record. ensuring that the taxpayers’interest—the public interest—is In the year ending 2007, the cost-profit figure after protected by the way in which this essential project is tax for Thames Water’s activities was £234 million and rolled forward, will need to be taken account of. the dividend paid was £594 million. That represented an 339 Water Industry (Financial 14 MARCH 2012 Water Industry (Financial 340 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill excess of £360 million in dividend payments over income— extra debts taken on by the company. We have praised exceptional, unusual and clearly not good precedent as the steps that the management of the company have normal practice. In the following two years, there was a taken in recent years to engage with the Government, much more normal pattern, with £382 million of cost-profit Members of Parliament and their customers to get to and £105 million of dividends, and therefore a net where we are today. I would also like to pay tribute retention of profits of £276 million. In 2009, there was to former Members of this House who are not here to £285 million of cost-profit and £226 million of dividends blow their own trumpet, although I am sure that they paid out, thus retaining a sum of £58 million. In the would be too modest to do so anyway. Linda Gilroy has past two years, the picture has slipped back to something been mentioned. I would also like to mention Julia much less healthy. In the year ending 2010, there was Goldsworthy, the former Member for Falmouth and £237 million of cost-profit, after taxation, on activities, Camborne, who did a great deal both inside and outside with dividends paid out of £295 million, and therefore this place to advance this cause. £57 million more paid out than money retained. In the The second injustice followed the incident in July last financial year for which we have figures, cost-profit 1988 in which 20 tonnes of aluminium sulphate was was £247 million and dividends paid out were £262 million, dumped into the water at the Lowermoor water treatment with therefore a net excess payout of £14 million. works. For about a fortnight, 20,000 residents in that I hope that those figures are accurate, as I am reliably part of North Cornwall were unaware that they were informed that they are. They make the general point drinking a potentially poisonous cocktail. The aluminium that when the Government are being asked to support sulphate generated acids that flushed out everything private sector activity and private sector companies, we else in the pipes and it was in the water supply for many should ensure—whatever those companies’ relationships days. My predecessor, Lord Tyler, campaigned for a full with each other in a collection of companies—that they inquiry into that issue before he was elected to this place have had disciplined financial activity that does not and afterwards. The right hon. Member for Oldham result in taxpayers, council tax payers or ratepayers West and Royton (Mr Meacher), when he was a Minister, being asked to foot bills that should be met by the at least commissioned a committee to look into the companies themselves but are not being met because issue. they have paid off the money elsewhere to shareholders I am grateful for your forbearance, Mr Deputy Speaker, who walk away with the profits. When they come to the in allowing me to raise this matter today. The reason I table in future to say that they want joint enterprises, do so is that Michael Rose, the West Somerset coroner, supported by Government, for major infrastructure has issued a narrative verdict today on the sad death of projects, whether they be tunnels, roads, bridges, schools, Mrs Carole Cross in 2004. Her husband, Doug Cross, hospitals or whatever else, we need to make sure that was one of the members of the committee, along with there has been ethical and appropriate financial accounting. Peter Smith, a lay member who was from the area and My plea is that we should learn these lessons across experienced the incident. Doug Cross has been a tireless the regulatory activities and across public finance to campaigner on behalf of the people who were affected ensure that the Treasury is not put into a difficult by the incident. It is tragic that he lost his wife. position. I hope that Thames Water and the other water The coroner’s verdict today was that there was a companies all over the UK hear this message loud and “very real possibility” that the ingestion of aluminium clear: “We are watching you, and as a Parliament and, I contributed to the death of Mrs Cross. He also criticised hope, a Government we will be very insistent that there the South West Water board for is good value for the taxpayer, council tax payer and “gambling with as many as 20,000 lives” water rate payer, and that you do not take out money from projects that should be there for investment but by not telling people about the incident for a fortnight. pay your full and proper share.” There was also evidence, thanks mostly to the work of Lord Tyler, the Western Morning News and others over the years, of a cover-up at the time of privatisation. The 5.33 pm coroner said that it was “deeply suspicious”that the incident Dan Rogerson: It is a great pleasure for those of us was handled in the way it was, due to the impending from the south-west to be talking about some measure privatisation. of help for our constituents who have laboured for a People in North Cornwall and elsewhere will want to long time under an unfair burden of very high bills. reflect on what the coroner has said today. However, I That is a legacy given to them by privatisation, which believe that the many people who have been arguing for has hardly been mentioned without the word “botched” years in the face of the response from Government that in front of it, certainly in the case of Government what they experienced did not really happen and that Members, but also Labour Members; I am delighted the medical consequences were all in their minds will that they have followed the same pattern. feel that there is some real progress. I hope that we will Two great injustices were done to my constituents at now start to get the answers that people should have the time of water privatisation in the late 1980s and had at the time of privatisation. I hope that the way in early ’90s. The second one, sadly, has become topical in which the Minister and his colleagues have today dealt the context of this debate. with the injustice of the inadequate green dowry will be The first injustice, as I have said, was the lack of a matched by a proper inquiry into and discussion of the sufficient green dowry to deal with the huge cost of incidents following the pollution of the water at Lowermoor cleaning up the sewage along the beautiful coastline of in 1988. Devon and Cornwall. That work has been done and has Question put and agreed to. been funded by the bill payers of the south-west, through Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. 341 14 MARCH 2012 Dangerous Dogs 342

Dangerous Dogs done. Does she agree that criminal injuries compensation must be examined? I had a young constituent who Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House suffered very bad injuries, and unfortunately she has do now adjourn.—(Mr Vara.) not received any compensation whatever because it was 5.38 pm deemed that there was no intent. Nobody set the dog on her, so she has had no compensation. Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): At the beginning of January this year, a little girl, aged six, Mrs Laing: That is a very valid point, and when the who lives in my constituency, was viciously attacked by Minister and his colleagues examine the consultation a dog that was out of control. Her ear was partially responses that they have received, I hope that they will bitten off and she was covered in bites. Her mother was consider the possibility of requiring insurance for dogs. also badly injured while trying to rescue her. The dog’s The totally inadequate compensation that is being paid owner was prosecuted and found guilty. He was given a to my constituent’s family—£450 at a rate of £50 a three month suspended sentence and 200 hours of month—does not even begin to cover the loss that they community service, and was ordered to pay compensation have endured through both the mother and father taking of £450. That was not an adequate penalty, and its time off work, the costs of going to hospital and so on. imposition was not an encouragement to others to Of course, they are thinking not about the money but control their dogs properly. The way in which the case about the health of their little daughter, but it is our was handled has done nothing to prevent such a tragic duty to consider that side of things as well. I hope the incident from happening again. Minister can give those matters adequate consideration. I know that there is a lot of strong feeling about this I pay tribute to the many charities and organisations issue in the House, and I commend the efforts of many that campaign on such issues and that have taken part hon. Members who have recently raised it here, in in the Government’s consultation. Since it was known Westminster Hall debates and elsewhere. In particular, that this debate would take place, I have been flooded the House ought to thank my hon. Friends the Members with information by well-meaning and well-organised for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), institutions that have taken the matter seriously for for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray) and for some time. I acknowledge their help and am sorry that I Romford (Andrew Rosindell) and the hon. Members cannot mention all their points in the time available—I for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), for note that we have another hour and three quarters to Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), for Liverpool, go, but I shall limit my remarks to a reasonable length. Wavertree (Luciana Berger), for Coventry North West I pay tribute in particular to the Dogs Trust, the (Mr Robinson) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon), each Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, of whom has made considerable efforts to bring the the Kennel Club, and the Communication Workers matter to the fore. Union and its “Bite Back” campaign. Not surprisingly, I also commend the Minister of State, Department there are calls from all sectors of society that we must for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right do something. hon. Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Mr Paice), and his colleague in another place Lord Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. Taylor. I know that the Government have carried out an Lady for bringing this matter to the House. I mentioned extensive consultation and are trying to balance the to her before the debate that new dog legislation is being various interests involved in the issue of controlling introduced in Northern Ireland in April. It will introduce dangerous dogs. I understand that the consultation has many changes, including the compulsory microchipping recently closed, and I hope that the fact that I have of dogs. Will the hon. Lady comment on that? Dog secured the debate will give the Minister the opportunity owners in Northern Ireland already pay an annual dog to put certain matters before the House. licence, but The Daily Telegraph columnist and former vet, Pete Wedderburn, stated: Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I “It seems to me that the Northern Ireland” congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important legislation debate at exactly the right time. Does she agree that “might be effective at achieving some of DEFRA’s key goals: to legislation must be consolidated and updated as soon as allow better enforcement of the law and ensure that dog owners possible to shift the emphasis to preventing the type of take responsibility for their animals.” attack that she has eloquently described and that has Is this the time to put Northern Ireland’s legislation triggered the debate? into what the Department for Environment, Food and Mrs Laing: Yes, I entirely agree. The emphasis has to Rural Affairs is doing and to put matters right? be on prevention. The House will be pleased to know Mrs Laing: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman that in the case I described, the little girl and her mother for educating the House on what is happening in Northern are now recovering. The little girl is having to endure a Ireland. I entirely agree with the points he has made and series of long operations, effectively to rebuild her ear. will come to them shortly. It is a dreadful thing for her to have to endure. We must all have in our minds the thought that the next child I have paid tribute to my colleagues in the House and who is attacked by a vicious dog might not be fortunate the professional organisations involved, but I also pay enough to escape with injuries that the medical profession tribute to Mr and Mrs Smith, the parents of the little can put right. girl who was attacked. They have set up a campaign to stop other children suffering in the way their daughter Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- suffered. They have also set up a petition, which is op): I thank the hon. Lady for giving way and congratulate gathering an enormous amount of support, which I am her on securing the debate and on the work that she has glad to see. 343 Dangerous Dogs14 MARCH 2012 Dangerous Dogs 344

Not surprisingly, the incident gave rise to an outcry in dependent on a loving and caring labrador, having that the media. People are rightly asking: “Why do we put little labrador attacked by a pit bull-type dog that is out up with laws that are so ineffectual?” I was shocked to of control? It is totally unacceptable, and action must discover that some 6,000 postal workers are attacked by be taken sooner rather than later. dogs every year. Luciana Berger: Does the hon. Lady share my concern Angela Smith: The hon. Lady is generous in giving that the number of attacks on guide dogs has more than way to me once again. I would add to what she just said. doubled in the past year, having risen from three to Given the sheer number of postal workers who are seven attacks every month? The training and cost of a attacked every year, is it not therefore necessary to guide dog over its lifetime is about £50,000. That training extend the law relating to dog control to private property, is run by a charity, the Guide Dogs for the Blind and recognise that many children die in the home as a Association, that receives no state support for the work result of attacks by dogs that are out of control? it does. Does she share my concern about the cost of those attacks to those people who depend on their dogs Mrs Laing: I agree with the hon. Lady. One anomaly and the charity? in the current law is that the owners of a dog that behaves in a threatening, vicious, bad way on private Mrs Laing: I certainly do. We all, in one way or property cannot be prosecuted. I hope the Minister another, raise money for good causes, and Guide Dogs comes forward with Government plans to correct that for the Blind is one of the best. I think of an excellent anomaly, if not today, in the near future. I have not organisation in my constituency that raises money for heard anybody say, or read any evidence suggesting, Guide Dogs for the Blind. People put a lot of work into that the contrary is the right way forward. that. More than anything, however, those poor guide I was genuinely shocked when I discovered how many dogs themselves, trained to be calm and not to fight people suffer from dog attacks every year. other dogs, are being attacked by other dogs. It is an utterly tragic situation, and one on which action must Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): be taken. In saying that, however, I am quite sure that I thank the hon. Lady for graciously giving way and for the Minister will tell us that action will be taken, because securing this debate on this crucial issue. Since 2006, the Government cannot possibly ignore these dreadful 11 people have lost their lives because of dangerous situations, which are occurring every day in parts of our dogs, and around 5,000 are hospitalised every year. She country. mentioned the Smith family, but she may know of the Let us consider first the problem and then possible tragic death of John-Paul Massey in my constituency. solutions. The problem, as we have just agreed across Like the Smith family, Angela McGlynn, John-Paul’s the House, is not that well-trained, well-cared-for dogs mother, has campaigned on the issue. Does the hon. suddenly turn upon children, postmen or other dogs. Lady agree that we need urgent legislation and changes The problem is that increasing numbers of dogs are so that the police, local authorities and dog wardens can being deliberately bred and trained as so-called status take preventive action so that we see no more needless or weapon dogs. This has been recognised, and in deaths? London alone, about 1,000 such dogs were seized last year. I am pleased to note that Boris Johnson and Kit Mrs Laing: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her Malthouse, at the Greater London authority, have taken contribution. I am sure that the whole House sends its this matter very seriously and have set up a unit to deal heartfelt sympathy to the family of those little children with status dogs. I should also say that both Boris who have died. Johnson and Kit Malthouse have met the family of the It is tragic. If in any other area of life we discovered little girl who was attacked in my constituency and have that in the past three years or so six children and two spoken to them very sympathetically.I have every confidence adults had been viciously killed, we would take action, that action is being taken in London to combat what is but because we are a nation of dog-lovers, we say, “Oh, a growing problem. I commend Boris Johnson and Kit but we must think about the dogs and look after the Malthouse for their understanding and their efforts, but dogs.” Yes, of course we must look after dogs, but six let there be no misunderstanding: we are talking about little children have died, and we must look after the a growing problem of deliberate bad behaviour, often children first and the dogs second. I know that I will get associated with drug dealing and crime. This is not hate mail from subscribers to the Royal Society for the about old ladies with cute little spaniels or children with Prevention of Cruelty to Animals for saying that, but I labradors. Any laws would have little effect on responsible will say it again: we must put the safety and lives of dog owners, but would make life very difficult for children and other vulnerable people first, and dogs irresponsible dog owners. second. Having said that—I will deal with this in more What we really need to do, however, is change public depth later—it is dogs that are badly treated by their attitudes. Being something of a libertarian, I am always owners that behave badly towards other people. Dogs against state interference when it is not absolutely necessary. that are cared for, looked after and loved do not normally However, controlling dangerous dogs falls into the same cause the sort of trouble that we are discussing. category as wearing seatbelts in cars or smoking in I was also shocked to discover that blind people, who public places. I was one of those who argued against the depend on guide dogs, are suffering as a result of the restrictions on personal freedom that the laws on seatbelts increase in the number of vicious dogs in our country and smoking in public places imposed. I spoke against today, because guide dogs are being attacked by vicious those laws on the grounds that we should not interfere dogs that are badly behaved and out of control. What with personal freedom, until I saw the proof that the worse situation can anyone imagine than a blind person, evil done by the imposition of the rule was a very much 345 Dangerous Dogs14 MARCH 2012 Dangerous Dogs 346

[Mrs Laing] nefarious purposes might not be brought to justice for drug dealing or extortion, but they could be arrested for lesser evil than that which resulted from not imposing non-payment of the fine for not chipping their dog. it. In order to change public attitudes, the Government That would give more power to the police and other have to give a lead. First, we need a system that is simple authorities to take serious preventive action. to implement, and cheap and straightforward to enforce. I understand that some local authorities are considering The police and local authorities need to have adequate making microchipping a condition of allowing a dog to powers, adequate resources—preferably self-financing—and live in local authority accommodation. Could that not public support. be extended? Preventive action could be taken, rather My constituent Mr Smith’s campaign, which has than reactive action; it would be simple to achieve, and received an enormous and growing amount of support, would require no long drawn-out court proceedings. We has come up with the slogan, “Chip them, lead them license our cars, after all, and some dogs are just as and give kids freedom”—I think that is quite good. dangerous as cars. We should have to register our dogs Microchipping, the use of leads and muzzles, and creating and accept responsibility for them. dog-free areas in parks are certainly possible ways forward. Another possible solution is the compulsory use of a However, as other hon. Members have said, we must lead or muzzle. Again, I appreciate that most responsible put the emphasis on prevention. I know that there are dog owners would not dream of taking their dog into a arguments against compulsory microchipping—the hon. public place without putting it on a lead. I can see the Member for Strangford gave us a good example of how argument for not requiring a lead or a muzzle in all it is about to work well and is supported in Northern places at all times, but in certain designated areas—especially Ireland. There are arguments against microchipping, around children near schools and play parks, and in restricting freedom and imposing more red tape on yet other obvious places—it would be perfectly reasonable another walk of life. for the law to require a dog to be kept on a lead or However, like everything else, it is a question of muzzled. balance. I would argue that it would be perfectly reasonable I am sure that the Minister will make the point about to phase in a system of microchipping new puppies not bringing in more and more regulations and laws before they are sold. The cost would be minimal—I am that are difficult to enforce, but I do not see the way told that the cost of inserting a microchip is often less forward as involving the placing of more burdens on than £10—and some 60% of dogs are already microchipped. the enforcement authorities or on law-abiding citizens. Charities that look after dogs already microchip them, If he is reluctant to introduce a law requiring the use of and many would offer to microchip the dogs of those leads and muzzles, would he consider a public information who could not afford to do so should a compulsory campaign to educate people about the benefits of keeping system be introduced. I did not know much about what their dog on a lead, and the responsibilities involved? microchipping meant, but it might surprise the House Once again, I am talking about changing public attitudes to know that the microchip is about the size of a grain so that, instead of it being normal for a dog to run of rice. All that happens is that this little thing is around and for people to have to accommodate the dog, injected into the scruff of the neck when the dog is it would be normal for a dog to be on a lead and for about six weeks old. I am told that it does not hurt, and people to look at it suspiciously if it were not. that it is simple and cheap. Let us look at the benefits. It could be argued that Angela Smith: I completely agree with the hon. Lady’s making microchipping compulsory would have no effect, comments about the need for a public information because the good dog owners already do it and the bad campaign, including perhaps information and advice ones would simply ignore the law, as they do now. about not leaving a dog alone in a house with a child, However, that is the very point of a compulsory for instance, which is one reason why we have had some microchipping system. We need a system that is simple casualties and fatalities. Would it not also be useful to for the police and local authorities to administer, and have a system of dog control notices in place, which that will give an officer of the law or of a local authority would mean that when a dog is obviously out of control, an easy way to impose a penalty if the law is broken. local authorities could implement this system to encourage That is why I propose that the imposition of a microchip better behaviour, such as by putting the dog on a lead or in dogs born after a certain transition period should be muzzling it? a strict liability matter. Anyone in charge of a dog that did not have a microchip would be subject to a strict Mrs Laing: I understand the hon. Lady’s point about liability penalty for breaking the law, rather like a dog control notices. I suspect that they would work parking ticket. rather like dog ASBOs or antisocial behaviour orders. The advantage of such a system is that it would bring That might work, but I am and always have been rather speedy resolution, rather than involving long court sceptical about ASBOs in the first place, and my scepticism cases in which evidence needed to be brought and about them spills over to the idea of having dog control people prosecuted. It would be easy, and it would give notices. Because we are talking about preventing serious the RSPCA and local authorities the power to intervene. tragedies from occurring in future, I would say that If a dog was not being properly trained or looked after almost anything the Government could do would be and was viewed as a potential problem, the authorities welcome. could intervene simply because it was not microchipped. The third possibility is to have dog-free areas. Local That is what I call the Al Capone effect. Hon. Members authorities already have the power to make certain will remember that Al Capone was a notorious gangster areas dog-free. Would it not be sensible—I am thinking and, no doubt, a murderer and torturer, but he was about a particular park in Buckhurst Hill in my constituency arrested for tax evasion. People who breed dogs for where Epping Forest district council is currently considering 347 Dangerous Dogs14 MARCH 2012 Dangerous Dogs 348 this matter—to say that a small part of a park that is set Jim Shannon: There are more than 10 million dogs in out as a children’s playground should be dog-free, and the United Kingdom. If DEFRA adopted compulsory that no dog should be allowed in that part? Another microchipping, coloured tags and dog licences, as Northern part of the park is perfectly okay for dogs, as they are Ireland has, £125 million of income would be created. not likely to come across children, so no tragic incidents would be likely to occur there. Where children are playing Mrs Laing: I thank the hon. Gentleman for making in a designated play area, however, it makes sense to say that point. I have not had time to go into the details of that there should be no dogs. Once again, I am ready for the microchipping scheme this evening. I hope it will be the hate mail from dog owners who will say that my noted that, although I have spoken for about half an suggestions would penalise those who look after their hour, I have given way to all who have sought to dogs. I honestly believe that people who train and care intervene because I appreciate the support that they for their dogs responsibly would find somewhere other have given. than a children’s play area to take their dogs for a walk. I believe that a properly organised system would be We need to put the children first and the dogs second. self-financing. I also believe that all responsible dog The fourth suggestion for the Minister is that there owners would consider the small extra expense a very should be some sort of system of compulsory insurance, small price to pay for the protection of their dogs—and coupled with compulsory chipping and registration of other people—from dogs that behave badly. The people dogs. I am told that this could be done at minimal cost who ignored the law, those who would not bother to to the individual and that subscription to one of the microchip their dogs and would not register them, are dog charities could cover a block insurance for all dogs. the very people who neglect their dogs and train them If an incident occurred, proper compensation could to behave wrongly and viciously, and they are the very then be paid to the injured party. people who would be caught after breaking the law. Finally, I turn to the question of penalties. Penalties I appreciate that the new laws will work only if they imposed on people who have let their dogs get out of are simple and can be easily and quickly enforced. I control and injure other people should be severe so that hope that the Minister will take some encouragement they have a deterrent effect. The current penalties are from what has been said this evening as he considers, not taken seriously. They must be easily enforceable and along with his colleagues, the results of the Government’s sufficiently serious to act as a deterrent. Once again, I long, detailed and very worthwhile consultation. put it to the Minister that a system of strict liability fines along the lines of parking tickets could work. The I conclude by saying once again that what we have to last thing any of us want to do is to give the police even do is change public attitudes. That has worked in respect more work or to place even more burdens on their time. of wearing seat belts, using a mobile phone while driving However, strict liability fines would make the system a car and smoking in public places. Some Members and much easier to enforce. At present, anyone who parks others said those changes could never happen, but they on a yellow line a car that is registered as being in their have happened, because public attitudes do change. At care is given a penalty charge notice, and if they do not present, the balance of public opinion says, “My dog pay the charge, they are dealt with by the criminal can go where he likes and do what he likes, so you’d justice system. A similar penalty charge notice could be better control your child.” From now on, we ought to issued to those who allow their dogs to behave in an say, “My child should be safe wherever he goes and unacceptable way—to threaten other people, for instance, whatever he does, so you’d better control your dog.” or to enter a dog-free area. Dogs are never the problem; it is the owners of dogs who are the problem. All we want is to require all dog I know that the Minister must consider cost. I put it owners to behave as good dog owners have always to him that the cost to the national health service—which behaved. is some £10 million a year—and the cost to businesses of the working time that is lost as a result of dog attacks are far greater than the administrative costs of a licensing 6.15 pm scheme would be. Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): It is a Luciana Berger: We should also consider the cost to pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for the police of kennelling dogs while investigations are Epping Forest (Mrs Laing), who deserves great credit under way. According to figures that I obtained through for having secured this debate. I assure the Minister that a freedom of information request, the kennelling costs I will try to be reasonably brief so we do not break any incurred by just 26 of our police forces in a single year records for marathon achievements in Adjournment were close to £4 million. debates. First, I want to put on the record my appreciation of Mrs Laing: I thank the hon. Lady for making that those organisations who have been working incredibly point. It is utterly appalling that taxpayers’ money is hard on this matter for a long time with very little public wasted on a scheme that is not having the right effect. It recognition. The work of the Royal Society for the is not controlling the number of so-called status dogs Prevention of Cruelty to Animals is well known, but I and weapon dogs, it is not preventing 6,000 postmen also want to express appreciation of—and I do not and 5,000 ordinary citizens from being attacked every often say this—the Association of Chief Police Officers year, and it is not saving the lives of children. I know for the lead it has taken in this area. Gareth Pritchard, that the Minister is sympathetic to my view. I hope that assistant chief constable of North Wales police, has the impassioned pleas that are being made this evening done a huge amount of unsung work, and he has done will increase his power when he negotiates with his so in a very consultative manner, working with a lot of colleagues, and will enable him to act quickly to deal other organisations to bring that work together. Rather with all the matters that I have raised. than simply pushing his own line or claiming to speak 349 Dangerous Dogs14 MARCH 2012 Dangerous Dogs 350

[Mark Reckless] officers, whether from councils or elsewhere, to take preventive steps to issue an order in respect of a particular on behalf of all police forces without having done the dog or owner, so that things can be followed up, where necessary groundwork to be able to do so, he genuinely necessary, in a given case without having to go through does speak not only for all police forces across the the full criminal procedure or bureaucracy on each country, but for a far wider range of stakeholders. We occasion? are all indebted to him for his work in this area. I wish to conclude by discussing a particular issue. I I have changed my mind on dog legislation and should declare a personal interest, because this happened regulation. I welcomed the abolition of the old dog to my wife before she became either my wife or my licences, which I considered to be bureaucratic and to constituent. She was chased by boxer dogs while skiing have little effect. I believe that at the time 15p had to be on the hills above Edinburgh. These dogs assumed that paid at the post office in order to register. However, she was prey and chased her as if she were a beast of recently I have come to understand the scale of the which they were in pursuit. It was the most extraordinary, problem. After all, there are 6,000-plus injuries per year. heart-rending experience for her and she never found I was really quite moved by the recent appearance on that there was any effective action that could be taken “Newsnight”of the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree on it. Those boxer dogs were part of a party of 13 dogs (Luciana Berger). The seriousness with which she has being walked by a commercial dog walker, who was addressed this issue and others has impressed colleagues profiting from purporting to control 13 dogs as the across the House. I have no doubt that we must provide agent for other people. Surely no one can properly relevant regulation; indeed, I think there is almost certainly control 13 dogs, let alone 13 large dogs or dogs of that a need for primary legislation, which should be consolidating type of breed. legislation that pulls together the existing patchwork of I hope that DEFRA will consider as part of this unsatisfactory legislation and provides a new, more process whether particular arrangements applying to effective approach. commercial dog walkers—where people are earning The focus must move away from the proscription of money—are justified. This is, if not a profession, at particular breeds to the behaviour of those dogs. We least something done for commercial return. We can should not introduce a big-bang change, however, until talk about particular measures, but I suggest that someone we are sure the new legislation is working. Therefore, walking four or more dogs should be over 18—it should for a transitional period at least, dangerous breed legislation be adults who do this—and should have appropriate may still have a part to play, and I certainly have respect public liability insurance. They should also stay away for ACPO’s position on this issue. from areas where little children are playing. Regulation Much greater focus must be placed on prevention. on that matter would be justified and I hope that There must be a criminal offence. If someone is causing, Ministers will consider it. One particular model that encouraging or allowing a dog to be aggressive, or is works well is the byelaw developed by Wandsworth using a dog to cause harassment, alarm or distress to council, and it may well be an example that we can another person or to attack a protected animal, that sensibly apply elsewhere. should be an offence. We need to consider circumstances As the Queen’s Speech approaches, I am not sure where a dog’s behaviour, where the absence of effective whether the pressure of legislation is as much as it restraint on a dog or where dogs acting in packs have might necessarily be in a normal year. We hope that we given rise to an injury to a person or a protected animal. have at least three years of this coalition Government to We also need to consider situations where a reasonable run, and I hope that we take the opportunity to legislate person would consider the behaviour of a dog or dogs in some non-contentious areas, where there may not be to be antisocial, intimidating, irresponsible or dangerous. the major political impetus for a Government to make We need legislation to deal with those scenarios. If we their mark but where there is agreement across the go down the road of microchipping, a link could be House and where there is a clear and pressing danger, as presumed, through that microchip, between the registered there is on this issue. I hope that we will use the owner and the behaviour of the dog. We could, thus, tie opportunity to have proper consolidating legislation those things together and have effective legislation. that puts a proper focus on prevention and can help to The criminal concept of mens rea is almost being prevent at least some of these terrible incidents of applied uniquely here, because the dog is doing the injury that we see every year across the country. action but what is the owner’s intention? Protection for the potential suspect in this area is difficult to retain. 6.24 pm Where an owner is allowing a dog to behave dangerously, causing intimidation to people, there may need to be a The Minister of State, Department for Environment, presumption as to their responsibility—although there Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I congratulate should be appropriate defences—unless they can show my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) that they have taken the appropriate steps. on securing the debate. As she and many other hon. On prevention, I support the call that we have heard Members have said, the timing is very appropriate. I from Members across the House for something akin to also congratulate her on the fact that she has clearly dog control notices. My work on the Select Committee done so much research, not just into the tragedy that on Home Affairs and my knowledge of these areas has affected her constituents, the Smith family, but into not convinced me that relying on the Home Office’s much wider issues, including the thought she has given antisocial behaviour legislation, or on its replacement, to potential measures to redress the situation. will be appropriate in this field. I ask the Minister at I entirely endorse my hon. Friend’s comments about least to consider whether something more specific is many other hon. Members and the diligence with which needed on dog control. Should we be allowing authorised they have pursued these issues. I am not saying that I 351 Dangerous Dogs14 MARCH 2012 Dangerous Dogs 352 agree with every aspect of their suggestions, but I fully disappointment that I have not been able to make that respect and understand their genuine concerns. I am announcement before today. I had very much hoped sure the whole House—and certainly the Government— that that would be possible but I am afraid it has not endorses her sympathy for the Smith family, the family been. If hon. Members want to intervene on me about of John-Paul Massey and countless other families who, this issue, I shall treat them with my usual courtesy, I as Members have said, have been affected by out-of-control hope, but for obvious reasons I will not be in a position dogs. to enlighten the House in great detail about what might The Government are aware that the issue is important be in the package. I know that many Members in the to many people. I am a dog owner myself and I see it as House and people outside it await our announcement both a privilege and a great responsibility. It should not with keen interest. be taken lightly by individuals, as it is a serious responsibility, and the owner is clearly responsible for how the dog Angela Smith: Will the Minister give way? behaves. Several hon. Members have mentioned that the owner is often at fault. We all know that certain breeds Mr Paice: I have committed myself now, so of course and crossbreeds are more prone to bad behaviour or I will. attacking people, but in many cases the actions of the owner are responsible for how the dog behaves. Angela Smith: The Minister made it impossible for As a former owner of a boxer, I say to my hon. Friend me not to intervene. Could he at least tell us whether we the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) will get a package of measures that will fit into existing that the vast majority of boxers are placid and quiet. legislation or whether there will be an offer of primary The behaviour to which he referred, where dogs chased legislation in the Queen’s Speech? his wife before she was his wife—I am not in any way suggesting that it did not happen—was obviously Mr Paice: Perhaps the hon. Lady will enlighten me at horrendous for her and none of us would want to be in some point as to what I have to do to make sure that she that situation, but it would be wrong to damn the whole does not intervene. She will know that I cannot presage breed because of those animals. We all know that some what will be in the Queen’s Speech. All I can say is that breeds are more prone to the problem and pit bulls and we are looking at measures that can be brought into their crossbreeds are a clear example of that. play and are enforceable and effective. She cannot tempt me to go further than that in giving the detail. Mark Reckless: Of course, I respect what the Minister has said, but does that not go to show that it is not the Luciana Berger: Can the Minister kindly confirm—he breed but the behaviour and the circumstances that has said this in the past few weeks—that we will see this matter? In my example, a commercial dog walker was package of measures before the recess, and therefore purporting to control 13 dogs, including some significantly before the end of the month? large breeds. Mr Paice: I am happy to confirm that that is still our Mr Paice: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I am intention and desire. jumping into specifics, but as far as the issue of commercial dog walkers is concerned—although I confess I do not The issue of irresponsible dog ownership spans a have a particular note or brief on the subject—I do not number of areas, with the police, courts, local authorities, think that anybody could dissent from what he has said. dog re-homing centres, veterinary surgeons and charitable It defies belief that anybody could be in control of 13 bodies, many of which are dog re-homing centres, all dogs, however competent they were. No doubt somebody having an interest. It is therefore important to strike the will write to me and say that that is possible, but I right balance between penalising irresponsible dog owners suspect that not many people would agree with them. and not placing unrealistic burdens on the majority of responsible dog owners. The serious implications that Having a dog that is out of control is clearly an issue irresponsible dog ownership can have for individuals of public safety. It is not fair on the dog if it is not being mean that we regard it as a form of antisocial behaviour. properly cared for and has not been trained to behave It is important that the police and other professionals appropriately. Sometimes, one can witness examples of have effective tools and powers to deal with antisocial dogs that appear to be out of control and one wonders behaviour. That is why the Home Office published a what care they are getting and whether the treatment consultation document that proposed a streamlined set the dog is receiving is fair. of faster, more flexible and more effective tools to allow My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest referred practitioners to protect victims and communities and to the Smith case and she properly made the point that get to the root of the problem. The Home Office received the owner of the dog has been prosecuted successfully more than 1,000 written responses to its consultation and convicted. I fully understand her concern about the from the police, other front-line professionals, members penalties imposed, but it demonstrates that even when of the judiciary, local authorities, interest groups and an offence is committed, it does not always force people members of the public, and it has worked with DEFRA to do the right thing. I fully understand her comments officials on the detail of the proposed new criminal about the penalty, but I must say that we have not had behaviour order and the crime prevention injunction to any pressure from the courts to increase the penalties. ensure that they adequately cover dog-related issues However, I fully understand and endorse her concerns. and could apply to antisocial behaviour by dog owners. I am also very much aware that I and other Ministers We also want to encourage informal measures to have said that we are close to making an announcement tackle inappropriate behaviour before it escalates into on a package of measures designed to tackle irresponsible something more serious. Such measures could include dog owners. I confess that it is a matter of personal raising awareness of examples where local areas are 353 Dangerous Dogs14 MARCH 2012 Dangerous Dogs 354

[Mr Paice] postwoman, a child whose home it is or who is staying with their grandparents or whatever it may be, and taking a more informal approach to issues through, for somebody who should not be on the property—a potential example, restorative justice or working with potential burglar or other trespasser. offenders. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping I am carefully trying not to lead the House into any Forest mentioned that some local authorities could conclusions about what may be announced. All I would require dogs to be microchipped before their owners say is that there is an issue of getting it right. We are could have local authority accommodation. That struck discussing a first-class example in which haste does not me as a very good example of a local initiative that get it right. I was here—I do not think anyone else in the could be used without the need for legislation. Chamber this evening was—when the Dangerous Dogs Act was passed. We all realised that we as a Government, Cathy Jamieson: May I return the Minister briefly to of which I was a very junior member at the time, acted the point I made in my intervention on the hon. Member in haste. Perhaps we could say that we have repented at for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) about criminal behaviour leisure. We clearly did not get it right. and the definition of criminal intent? She talked about I do not support any cause for delay, but deliberation victims. Will the Minister discuss with his colleagues in is required. I have therefore pointed out the balance that the Home Office and the Justice Department, if he has we have to strike between those who have a right to be not already done so, the issue of criminal injuries on a property and those who should not be there in the compensation in circumstances in which innocent victims first place. Do we really want to see a trespasser successfully are severely injured through no fault of their own prosecuting a home owner because a dog has acted in a because of irresponsible dog owners? way that many people would consider only natural towards somebody who the dog would not expect to be Mr Paice: I am happy to undertake to discuss that on the premises? There are major implications to extending with my colleagues. My understanding is that the Home the law into the home. We need to make sure that all the Office has considered the matter. I do not wish to potential risks are understood and can be addressed. presage what may or may not be announced by them. Suffice it to say that I do not think they are fully Luciana Berger: The Minister rightly referred to postmen persuaded. I shall say a word in a moment about other and women coming to homes, and the need to protect financial aspects. children, but the issue is broader than that. Social Currently dog control orders are available to local workers visit homes, as do health workers and health authorities, under the Clean Neighbourhoods and visitors, telecom workers and people coming to read Environment Act 2005. These allow local authorities to meters. There is a plethora of people who have to enter impose restrictions on the walking of dogs in certain someone’s property for one reason or another and who public open areas. Typically, as my hon. Friend the could be and have been under attack from dangerous Member for Epping Forest suggested, this allows child dogs. recreation areas in parks to remain dog-free and thereby helps to provide a safe area for children to play. It also Mr Paice: I fully accept everything the hon. Lady allows local authorities to place restrictions in areas says. I referred to postmen and women only by way of where there have been substantial complaints about example; it was not meant to be an exclusive list, as I am unruly dogs in general causing problems. My hon. sure she appreciates. Friend rightly said that the part of a park where the A number of people, including some hon. Members, children’s play area is should be free from dogs. I support the idea that if breed-specific legislation is not entirely agree. The powers exist and local authorities repealed, and frankly we have no intention of repealing can ensure that. One would encourage them to do so in it—as my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and the appropriate situations. Strood said, the police point to its benefits and do not As the House may know, dog control orders will be wish it to be repealed—owners should be allowed to replaced by the new measures available under the Home apply to the courts to have their dogs added to the index Office’s proposed revised antisocial behaviour measures, of exempted dogs. I would want the police to have the but there are no proposals to remove the power to final say on whether a dog should be seized, and there create dog-free areas. Another proposal being looked at might also be scope for not kennelling other types of by my Department is to extend the criminal law on dogs that are not a danger. dangerous dogs to all private property. My hon. Friend In answer to another point that was raised, we are rightly made a great deal of this. The proposal would very much aware of the costs of kennelling not only to allow the police to investigate dog attacks on private the Metropolitan police, who are the biggest example, property. However, we need to make sure that any new but to many others, including some charities, and we measure gets it right. There is an issue of balance here. are aware that those costs have risen steeply over the Nobody would disagree with my hon. Friend’s comments past few years. We are not aware of the police having about the Communication Workers Union. Clearly, people any central records for all forces in England, but we going about their duties as a postman, milkman or might be wrong about that, so my officials will make anybody else who goes on to private property should inquiries with ACPO to see whether those central records not expect to be under attack from a dog. That, I hope, exist. In all cases, the police would need to be satisfied goes without saying. that the dogs are in the care of a responsible owner, as My hon. Friend also raised the issue of children. there would be no point in putting them on the list of None of us wants to see children attacked anywhere, exempted dogs if they were then left in the care of but there is a distinction to be made between people someone who would not be responsible. The idea would who are legitimately on premises, whether a postman or clearly save the police money, which we fully appreciate. 355 Dangerous Dogs14 MARCH 2012 Dangerous Dogs 356

Another proposal referred to by several hon. Members, Department. I should not want to discourage any individual including the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who wanted to take out such insurance, but part of me is the compulsory microchipping of dogs. My officials wonders whether, if they want to take it out, they have in DEFRA keep in close and regular contact with doubts about their ability to control their dog. officials in the Northern Ireland Executive. We are I apologise to the House for not being able to be more aware of what they are doing and are watching the specific about what we are proposing, but the House development of their new initiative carefully. There are will be very much aware of the constraints on Ministers obviously benefits to the compulsory microchipping of before decisions have been made. I reaffirm, however, dogs, one of which is the ability to identify the owner of that we are working on two separate packages of a dog that had become dangerously out of control, even measures—although we hope that they will come if they were not present at the time of the incident. together—in DEFRA and in the Home Office, and we Better traceability of owners could discourage owners are determined to take action. from letting their dogs run loose and, therefore, reduce the likelihood of attacks. We have to consider the Mark Reckless: I hear the Minister’s point about the downsides. My hon. Friend the Member for Epping issues regarding compulsion for every dog owner in the Forest is probably right about the issue of cost, which country, but before he leaves the issue of insurance some people raise, but updating the records is more entirely, will his Department consider the case of insurance important. Clearly, if a dog changes hands or its owner for the much narrower category of commercial dog moves, the record becomes useless unless it is updated. walkers, who earn money for supplying a service that Again, it is an example of not just a simplistic approach, purports to look after and control dogs? but one that has huge merits. We have made it a priority to see how the issue is Mr Paice: Yes, of course. I am happy to confirm to being dealt with on the ground by many local authorities my hon. Friend that we will look at that issue. My and are looking at how local community initiatives are immediate concern is the definition of “commercial dog promoting responsible dog ownership. My hon. Friend walker”, but I do not want to sound negative. the Member for Epping Forest referred to initiatives for I apologise to the House for not being able to be more local authority accommodation. One example is Ealing precise, and I hope that we can be in the not too distant borough council’s “dog watch” initiative. I know that future, but we want to be clear that we are not producing Waltham Forest district council has also carried out changes with a load of unintended consequences that many initiatives in part of my hon. Friend’s constituency. we live to regret. We will continue to work up our I have a long list of initiatives and congratulate the proposals both to reduce dog attacks and on antisocial council on its work. All of them are key to tackling the behaviour involving dogs, including the whole issue of problem of irresponsible dog ownership. They can provide trophy dogs and their use for intimidation. They might suitably tailored local approaches to local problems. never attack anybody, but if they are intimidatory that The guidance that my Department issued to law can be just as antisocial. enforcers in 2009, under the previous Government, also We clearly want to promote dog ownership, and I reminds local authority housing providers and other emphasise that the Government believe that the vast landlords that they can play an important part in addressing majority of dog owners are responsible, but we need to antisocial behaviour in areas where they have jurisdiction, address the minority. as we have discussed. Housing providers are strongly encouraged to have a clear and positive policy towards Angela Smith: I thank the Minister for giving way dogs, with sanctions and consequences if a tenant fails and for his very full response this evening. Can he to adhere, and of course that applies just as much to confirm that any announcement will be made by way of housing associations as it does to local authority housing. a statement to the House, rather than through a written I said that I was going to return to the issue of ministerial statement? finance and, in particular, to insurance, which my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest raised as one of Mr Paice: The hon. Lady asks me a question above her proposals. The previous Government considered my pay grade. I do not make those decisions, much as I the matter when they launched their consultation in should like to, but I hear what she says and the urge 2010. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Penistone within it. and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) is, I am pleased to say, What I can say is that once proposals have been nodding in agreement. At the time, however, the insurance finalised we will announce measures to tackle the issues business was not at all supportive of the proposition, that we have all discussed today, to make our communities and if the industry is not prepared to offer such policies safer and to make those who own dogs accept and it is difficult to see how one could make insurance respect the responsibility that is placed upon them compulsory, as my hon. Friend suggested. partly for public safety and partly, as I said earlier, for I am also not sure that insurance is a necessary dog welfare, which is an equal part of the matter. prerequisite, bearing in mind that the vast majority of Question put and agreed to. dog owners would therefore pay for it to deal with the behaviour of a tiny but nevertheless significant minority of irresponsible dog owners, but I reaffirm that it has 6.49 pm been a matter of consideration and interest for the House adjourned.

77WH 14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 78WH

Friend a little surprised, if not concerned, at the lack of Westminster Hall Opposition Members here to support the debate, which affects their constituents?

Wednesday 14 March 2012 Steve Brine: Yes. My hon. Friend tempts me. The turnout in debates in the House and Westminster Hall is a matter of fact and public record, not my judgment; [MR JAMES GRAY in the Chair] that is for others. However, I thank my hon. Friend for pointing that out. First-time Buyers I mentioned aspiration and I shall say the word Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting again—as, I am sure, will many of my hon. Friends. be now adjourned.—(Mr Newmark.) That is the starting point for me. The Government should exist to help people to realise their aspirations: not through a handout—although, yes, sometimes—but 9.30 am often through a hand up. The debate is unapologetically, Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): It is a pleasure to for me, about our values. Politicians do not talk enough serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray; this is the these days about what they believe in. It is as if ideology first time that I have done so in a leading role. has become a bad word, and it is suddenly a crime I am pleased to have secured the debate, which covers to say what drives us. Of course policy-making and an issue that is important to me and certainly to the implementation is about the head, but it must also be in people I represent in Winchester and Chandler’s Ford, equal measure about the heart. Why do we want to be in as well as to people across the country. I am pleased that this place? Why did my party, and many hon. Members so many of my colleagues have turned out this morning. who fought seats for longer than I did to get here, work I suspect that the postbags of many right hon. and hon. so hard to return our party to government and run the Members suggest that the topic is important to their country, if not to pursue our mission? Part of that constituents, too. The issue is about the strivers in our mission and why I wanted to come here was to help constituencies. I am not sure where that term came people to own their home. I do not accept that that is from, but it seems increasingly to be a feature of the somehow to let people aim higher than they should be political spectrum. allowed to by the state. I know that Conservative Members utterly reject that. It is frequently asserted that we are a nation of home owners, as well as a nation of shopkeepers. Home Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Will the hon. owning, or striving to own one’s house, makes financial Gentleman give way? sense. It brings independence and is a source of great pride for many. It was Anthony Eden who first set out the noble vision of a nationwide property-owning Steve Brine: Yes. Good timing. democracy, and for much of the 20th century home ownership levels steadily increased. That was a good Mr Williams: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on thing. There has been a striking increase in recent years securing the debate. Does he also accept that the question in the number of people, particularly in the younger goes deeper than simply owning a house? The ramifications generation, opting to rent instead of buying, as property of denying first-time buyers the opportunity to buy prices have shot up, deposit requirements have rocketed, property affect the community as a whole. Where I and the economic outlook has remained uncertain. come from in west Wales the issue is that young people People’s aspiration, however, one day to own a property are moving away from our communities; they cannot of their own remains as strong as ever. educate their children in local schools, and there are other community aspects. I had an acute reminder of that yesterday, when I was proud to cut the ribbon in the Dell—not that Dell—the old Dell in Willis Waye in Kings Worthy. There are Steve Brine: Absolutely. We have often debated the 29 brand new homes, which have been built by Homes future of sub-post offices, pubs and primary schools where and Community Agency partner Radian Housing, with falling rolls lead to changes and school reconfiguration. a nice mix of shared ownership and rental, constructed There is a need for new people to enter communities, to to the highest standard possible, using local architects. I regenerate them. I ask hon. Members who are home was fortunate enough to meet some residents yesterday, owners to remember when they first walked into the and they do not see home ownership as an unnecessary first house they owned, and the excitement of that. We burden; they are proud as Punch to live in the Dell. I am may remember how exciting it was as a child to play proud that we have a positive Conservative city council house; but that was playing house for real. I remember in Winchester, with a forward-thinking portfolio holder how exciting it was, and I want other people to experience in Councillor Tony Coates, and people such as my that excitement. That is what the debate is about, which colleague Councillor Ian Tate on the planning development brings me back again to that word “values”. control committee; they have a passion to help the I want to outline the scale of the current challenges to people we represent to realise their aspiration to own the UK housing market, and the difficulties that young their homes. families and first-time buyers experience in taking their first tentative step on to the property ladder. It is a Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): I congratulate daunting challenge. Since 2008 the number of first-time my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. buyers has declined from a long-term average of about Opportunity for first-time buyers is extremely important 500,000 a year to just 200,000. One of the key factors to all Members, from all constituencies, so is my hon. accounting for that is, of course, the astonishing rise in 79WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 80WH

[Steve Brine] will step up to the plate and stop looking to London for their orders and work with local communities to deliver average house prices relative to earnings in the past 20 years the homes that their area needs. —even taking into account the slight decline in prices in When I talk to people in my constituency—I am sure more recent years. I emphasise the word “slightly”because that Members from across the House will recognise this the situation in the part of the world I represent may be point—it is clear that they recognise the facts; they different from that in some other constituencies. understand that we need to build new homes because they know that the people who are looking for those Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I congratulate homes and who are locked out of the system are their my hon. Friend on obtaining this debate on an important children and their grandchildren. My children are aged issue that affects so many of our constituents. I am not four and one so they are obviously a long way from an expert on house prices in his area, but High Peak is a owning their own home. None the less, that is what I particularly beautiful rural area, and consequently house want for them one day—actually at 5 o’clock this morning, prices are disproportionately high, so it is even harder I felt that it would be a good idea right now. I want them for first-time buyers to get on the ladder. to be able to stay near mum and dad, perhaps not too near, but relatively near. Steve Brine: I thank my hon. Friend, who argues People in Winchester do not want housing estates passionately for rural housing in his constituency. The forced on them that are so big that they can be spotted changes that the coalition Government are bringing from the lunar surface, and that are without the support in—the neighbourhood plans that will be part of the services a community needs when it accepts 200 or even localism agenda, which will work with the council’s 2,000 new homes. They want to be involved. When we local plan—are critical in achieving local buy-in to add involve people, we find that they take the right decision stock sensitively and to increase supply in rural areas. for their community. That is what localism is about; That is not to impose, but to enable local planning, nothing more and nothing less. through the neighbourhood plan process, to increase I welcome the coalition’s plan to release public sector supply, so that local people who have grown up in land with the capacity for up to 100,000 new homes, villages can afford to stay in them. That is critical. The and the £400 million that the Treasury has put into the new rules that the Government are bringing in, on local get Britain building fund to support firms in need of allocation, mean that we can make local homes for local development finance. I look forward to hearing more people a reality. I know that my hon. Friend will press from the Minister about her aspirations in that respect. for that on behalf of the people he represents. Although the housing shortage and high prices have We know from figures from the Department for conspired against first-time buyers, undoubtedly the Communities and Local Government that between 2000 biggest obstacle is the size of the deposit that is required and 2007 the average UK house price more than doubled, before a mortgage can even be considered. The Council from £106,000 to £214,000. For many first-time buyers, of Mortgage Lenders has estimated that the average particularly those unable to access finance from the deposit for a first-time buyer now stands at more than bank of mum and dad—a term that I suspect we shall £26,000. That represents 79% of the average annual return to over the next 90 minutes—those high prices income from which the mortgage is paid. have either delayed or ended hopes of owning bricks A constituent wrote to me last month: and mortar. In Winchester, the mean house price in the third quarter of 2011 was £368,500, whereas the mean “All the mortgage providers we have spoken to have offered 5% price for England in the same period was just £245,000. deposit mortgages but these come with massive consequences, such as interest rates which would make monthly payments the The problem is particularly acute in my constituency. same as one of our monthly salaries, or a family member/friend It is a widely accepted fact of economic reality that who would invest £35,000 for three years to stand behind the house prices are high partly because housing is in loan. I don’t know about you, but we don’t know anyone who relatively short supply in this country. As for the future, could spare £35,000 that they wouldn’t touch for 3 years, do you, I know, having listened to Communities and Local Steve?” Government questions on Monday, that the Government No, Steve doesn’t, and that is the problem; I wish I did. do not like to make forecasts of house building; but As the credit crunch took hold in 2007, liquidity they must surely look carefully at what has happened in dried up and more restrictive lending levels took hold. the past. In 2007 there were 178,000 housing starts, but Thus, even though house prices have started to fall by 2009—the last full year of the previous Government— slightly in recent years in some areas, challenging funding that figure had crashed to just over 78,000. In 2011, the criteria have meant that ever larger deposits are required, first full year of the coalition Government, it had risen making the dream of home ownership for many first-time to just over 98,000—a rise of 25%—but we are still buyers nothing more than a remote fantasy. Add to that clearly well short of where we want and need to be. the rising costs of living and job uncertainty, and the Building more new, affordable homes should clearly be picture can appear bleak for aspiring home owners. a priority.I hope, for all our sakes, that the new incentive-led, In preparing my remarks for this morning’s debate, I plan-led approach combined with policies such as the asked myself whether we had a Government who were new homes bonus and genuine local buy-in through prepared to wash their hands of these young people. Do neighbourhood plans will make a significant difference. we have a Government who prefer to walk on by, on the As I have said many times in my constituency and in other side of the street, and consign a generation of the Chamber, the stick approach to increasing supply young people to a life living with mum and dad, which has failed. Under the previous Government, house building can have benefits; sofa-surfing, which does not have fell to its lowest level since the 1920s. My aspiration for benefits; renting in the social or private sector, which the new system of localism is simple: local authorities works for many; or even, in extreme cases, homelessness? 81WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 82WH

If I thought for one moment that this Government took decades, and the criteria for lending are now much that view and wanted to turn their back on young stricter. Nobody will get a mortgage who is not able to people, I would be their fiercest critic and we would be pay for it. having a very different debate today. Yes, there are limits to what Government can do, especially with a Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): My hon. Friend is national debt the size that we have, but there are a making an important point because there have been one number of actions that can be taken to boost Britain’s or two concerns about that issue. Will he confirm that housing market and to assist first-time buyers in getting the Financial Services Authority will be watching this a foothold on the first rung of the property ladder. extremely closely? The scheme has been through a rigorous regulatory route, and there should be no concerns about The most important step the Government have taken comparisons with some of the sub-prime activity. to support greater home ownership is their commitment to ensuring that interest rates are kept as low as possible Steve Brine: Yes, the FSA is monitoring the situation for as long as possible. They are getting to work on very carefully. There are some new lenders coming on to tackling the national structural deficit. It is a factor that the market who are keen to step up to the plate, and the is easily overlooked, but without a credible plan to put FSA is treating them with all the due care and diligence the public finances on a stable footing, the inevitable that we would expect. I know that as chair of the higher interest rates that would result would also lead to all-party parliamentary group on Citizens Advice, my higher monthly mortgage payments and increased hon. Friend takes a great interest in the matter, and I repossessions. That key point should never be understated. thank him for coming along this morning. As well as maintaining the conditions necessary to Nobody will get a mortgage who is not able to pay for secure a low interest base rate, the Government have it, not only at today’s low interest rates but at interest also introduced a range of initiatives designed to support rates that will possibly rise at some future point. NewBuy prospective first-time buyers to own their own home. is most welcome. With the sort of timing that I could not have planned Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): I thank my for—for the record I did not—two key announcements hon. Friend for organising this debate. While we are on were made this week. The NewBuy guarantee scheme the sub-prime crisis, is it not the case that we need to tackles the deposit problem head on, and I am pleased ensure that we do not have a situation in which people to see that it is led by the Home Builders Federation and are borrowing 120% of their salary, which they clearly the Council of Mortgage Lenders. cannot afford, or self-certifying their earnings? Those At the launch this week, the executive chairman of aspects of mortgage lending led to the sub-prime crisis. the Home Builders Federation said: Here, the focus must be on affordability first. “NewBuy will help thousands of people to meet their aspirations to buy a new home, freeing up the housing market and helping Steve Brine: Absolutely. Affordability is the key word. first-time buyers and those unable to take the next step on the One of the key lessons that must be learned from what ladder.” happened in 2007 is that affordability must be at the Paul Smee, the director general of the Council of Mortgage heart of mortgage lending. That is why I am so pleased Lenders said: that the Council of Mortgage Lenders is backing this scheme. Obviously, through its lenders, responsible lending “These mortgages will help creditworthy borrowers. It is good will be the watchword, but affordability is critical. news for home-buyers and potentially good news for jobs and the wider economy too.” NewBuy is most welcome. I have taken great care to inform many of my constituents about it already and Mortgage applicants are typically required to give a I understand that the website NewBuy.org.uk has, deposit of between 15% and 20% at the moment, whereas unsurprisingly, been very busy in its first 48 hours. NewBuy makes it possible for first-time buyers and Although I welcome it, I will just make this point to the existing home owners to get a mortgage on a new-build Minister. Many first-time buyers will welcome any home, property with only a 5% deposit, without all the strings and a new build ticks many boxes, but I urge her to that my constituent told me about earlier. That new work with colleagues at the Treasury and in the Department deal means that instead of having to save a deposit of for Communities and Local Government to explore between £30,000 and £40,000, first-time buyers will now ways in which we can extend NewBuy to not-so-new-buys need only £10,000. The scheme indemnifies lenders because not all mature properties are thatched cottages against a limited amount of any future losses, opening worth a couple of million pounds, and sometimes first-time up mortgage lending and stimulating demand for newly buyers do not want to choose a new build. There is built houses and flats. much housing stock out there that could come on to the Only new homes built by house builders signed up to market, especially as we change the rules on assured the scheme will qualify, but I am told that most of the tenancies. major and many of the smaller builders are in the process of registering. Yesterday, I was encouraging Mr Mark Williams: Does the hon. Gentleman welcome Radian Housing to be part of the scheme, and it told the initiatives taken by some local authorities to develop me that it already was, which was excellent news. their own local authority mortgage schemes? My local authority, Ceredigion, is pursuing that, and it is also Under the scheme, individual home builders will being pursued in Conwy—I say that to add a slightly partner up with one or more mortgage lenders who will Welsh dimension to this debate. offer loans of between 90% and 95% on their properties. Let me stress that NewBuy has nothing to do with Steve Brine: I see absolutely no reason why such sub-prime lending, when mortgages were given to people initiatives should not be developed; I suggest that they who could not afford the repayments. Mortgages of are a key part of localism. Perhaps I will rather unfairly 95% operated perfectly well in this country for many pass the hon. Gentleman’s question on to the Minister, 83WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 84WH

[Steve Brine] The head of mortgages at HSBC has reported that HSBC has seen a 20% increase in approvals for first-time because I see no reason why a responsible local authority buyer loans in the first six weeks of the year, as first-time setting up an accredited scheme such as that could not buyers rush to take advantage of the stamp duty holiday. be part of the NewBuy scheme. I thank the hon. Gentleman I mentioned Radian Housing earlier. It operates the very much for making that point. HomesinHants website and it told me yesterday that I turn to right to buy, which, as we know, has been that website was receiving some 78,000 hits per day in relaunched this week, with all the passion and enthusiasm January and February of this year compared with just of its creator, the former Member for Finchley. To this 67,000 hits per day in the same two months of last year. day, I meet people every time that I knock on doors on It also says that many of the inquiries that it has the big estates of Winchester who were given the chance received are from first-time buyers, who have been to join the property-owning democracy by that lady encouraged to get a move on by the stamp duty holiday. and her policy when it was introduced the first time I realise that there is a view in Government that this around. I am extremely proud that my party made that stamp duty holiday has not been a huge success everywhere, possible. The subject even comes up in conversation but I ask the Minister in her reply to the debate to from time to time—started and prompted by me. I am expand on that issue some more. It seems logical to me, extremely proud of that policy and we should never and constituents have reported as much to me as their stop saying that we are proud of it. local MP, that in some areas and in some markets, this I am delighted that the Government are ploughing holiday can provide a nudge to the market and free up ahead with their task of reinvigorating the right-to-buy cash for those who take the plunge to spend that extra scheme, by raising the maximum discount available money elsewhere in the economy. In saying that, I from the current limit of between £16,000 and £38,000 appreciate that the Winchester housing market is different to £75,000. Every home that is sold under the scheme from some other areas of the country, to put it mildly. will be replaced by an affordable home for rent. I am Nevertheless, I look forward to hearing the Minister’s sure that the Minister will want to elaborate on the fine response. details, but I can report to her good news from the I will make one final point that seems odd to raise in Queen’s own land of Winchester, where the Conservative-led a debate about Government help for first-time buyers— Winchester city council has recently confirmed plans to about interest-free loans to help employees with the build the first new council homes in the district since the cost of a rail season ticket. To say the least, the amount 1980s. Those plans have been met with great excitement available has not kept pace with fare rises on the service by local people. With 4,500 people on the city council’s from Winchester and Southampton to Waterloo, for waiting list, the plans are great news and, as the city’s instance, and for many of my constituents this outgoing MP, I could not welcome them more. I pay great tribute is now one of the largest that they face each month. I to the work that the Treasury has done with the Department believe that the Government need to look urgently at for Communities and Local Government. I believe that the interest-free loan figure; I have tabled questions to it is a £19 billion deal to allow authorities such as that effect. I would welcome the Minister’s comments Winchester to get themselves out of the housing revenue on that, which will probably come in writing after the account—the so-called “tax on tenants”. That deal is debate. making the new policy possible. In conclusion, giving people the chance to own their We often hear that the Government are taking us own home is one of the best things that a Government back to the 1980s and dare I say that that is not said in can do for their people. My parents’ generation saw favourable terms by some Members? As a child of that owning a home as a rite of passage but it is more decade, I can see no problem with a return to music complicated than that these days, for many of the that people can really dance to. Seriously, however, if reasons that I have outlined this morning. In my opinion, that kind of time travel gives us back the right to buy, as young people have every right to believe that, if they well as new council homes in Winchester and across this work hard, do the right thing and save, they have a country, I say, “Bring it on.” Government on their side and they can get on the Let me refer again to the new homes bonus, whereby property ladder. I welcome the steps that the Government local authorities will be financially rewarded for delivering are taking to reinforce and, yes, to lower the bottom new housing, with matched funding based on new rung of that ladder. I look forward to hearing from my council tax receipts. For the first time, a premium for hon. Friends in the debate ahead and, of course, to the affordable homes will be included and the next sets of Minister’s reply in due course. allocations have already been announced. Winchester is due to receive more than £1 million in allocated funding, 9.55 am which I am sure will be welcomed by city councillors of all colours. May they use it wisely and to maximum Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): It is always effect; that would be my message to them from Westminster a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. Hall today. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester I would like to probe the Minister a little on one issue (Steve Brine) on securing this important debate, and I in particular before I close. In 10 days’ time, the stamp am very happy to echo all the views that he has ably duty holiday for first-time buyers will end, which means expressed this morning. that any first-time buyer who buys a home worth between I will make a few comments in particular about the £125,000 and £250,000 must pay the 1% stamp duty Government’s Firstbuy and NewBuy schemes, as they tax. Evidence given to me—I must say that it is from are of special importance to my Milton Keynes constituency Charters estate agents in Winchester—suggests that and, indeed, to the whole of Milton Keynes. For Members first-time buyers are moving quickly to avoid the tax. who do not know, Milton Keynes is a new town that is 85WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 86WH still very much growing; we have not yet reached our I should like policies to assist a greater proportion of desired size. Indeed, we may become a new city in the new estates, particularly new flats, to be owner-occupied, fullness of time. We are awaiting the announcement of so that the bonds of community can more easily develop. the diamond jubilee city with bated breath. That is a feature that characterised Milton Keynes when it first grew. It is often falsely characterised as a As I say, Milton Keynes is continuing to grow rapidly. soulless place with identikit housing estates. The reality We have more than 20,000 housing permissions already is different. There is a rich sense of community, generated in place, and that is before we look at potential additional by the people who came to the new areas of Milton expansion areas. Figures from the National House Building Keynes at the outset and who wanted to build a new Council show that monthly new starts in Milton Keynes place together. Although the housing stock was new— run at a rate that is three to four times the national 20 years before, the area was just open fields—a rich average. Despite the fact that there is certainly a good community quickly developed. supply of new housing stock in Milton Keynes, there are still difficulties for people who want to get on to the housing ladder. As well as growing in housing numbers, Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): My hon. Friend is the town’s economy continues to grow, so there is substantial absolutely right about the bonds of community. Does inward migration to Milton Keynes, which of course he agree that encouraging first-time buyers with the puts additional pressure on the housing stock. For policies that the Government are proposing will have example, the new Network Rail national centre will huge and positive knock-on effects down the line? He open in Milton Keynes later this year. That is generating has talked about bonds within the community, but the 3,000 jobs, about 1,000 of which will be generated policies would also free up more private and social locally, but about 2,000 people will come in from elsewhere rented accommodation, and that would have a real in the country. That pushes up the demand for housing. impact on homelessness, which is rising in North Yorkshire at the moment. Such policies would feed down the line Also, there are issues from a demographic perspective. and have positive knock-on effects across the board. The first main expansion of Milton Keynes took place in the 1970s and 1980s, when, by and large, young Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. families came to settle in the town. Now the children of I will be making a few additional points about how the those families are at an age when they want to get on to policy will interact with the social housing sector. I the housing ladder. So these two measures—the Firstbuy congratulate my hon. Friend on making that point. scheme and the NewBuy scheme—will have particular On localism and building sustainable communities, resonance in Milton Keynes, as they will help people on we need to get away from simply building new flats as to the first rung of the housing ladder. the primary housing stock, which was a feature of the My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester referred old top-down system. Local authorities were given targets to the Council of Mortgage Lenders, which has published for new houses, and the easiest way to fulfil the target a statistic that is very relevant to this debate: 85% of was to build blocks of flats. There is absolutely nothing people aspire to own their own home. It is engrained wrong with flats; they have their place. I live in a flat in into our national psyche that owning a home is desirable my constituency—there is nothing wrong with it—but and, indeed, the right thing to do. Owning a home gives the situation has got out of proportion. us a sense of stability and community. So it is absolutely right that the Government are taking all these steps to Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Does my hon. make owning a home as easy as possible, without—as Friend agree that when local authorities give planning my hon. Friend said—getting into the dangerous territory permission for such developments, the future of a of unaffordable mortgages, which helped us to get into community that involves children should be considered? the financial mess that we are in. As I say, I will not We need appropriately sized houses for families. First-time repeat the very sound points that he made; I will just house buyers will presumably get married and start echo them. families. Once people start families, we get community cohesion with schools, pre-schools and play schools I will also make some additional points about how and so on. That really does create a family community these policies tie in to our localism agenda and our wish on new housing estates. to develop sustainable communities. There has been a trend whereby we have had new housing developments, particularly flats, and a large percentage of the new Iain Stewart: My hon. Friend makes an excellent properties have been bought up by people making buy-to-let point. The new neighbourhood plans in the Localism investments. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Act 2011 will help enormously. Having a proper mix that—it is a perfectly valid investment option—and of housing stock in an area will build up a sense of there is absolutely nothing wrong with the private rented community. sector, which fulfils an invaluable role in the mix of My last point concerns how we can develop policies housing stock that we have in our country. However, I in future. I absolutely agree with the scope and direction have certainly noticed in Milton Keynes—it may be of the two policies I have mentioned and the right to prevalent elsewhere, too—that so many of the properties, buy. As my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer particularly the flats, in those new build estates are mentioned, there is a link with the social housing sector. buy-to-let investments that there is a huge turnover of Even with additional help, taking out a full mortgage occupants. That makes it more difficult for a new will still be beyond the means of some people. My wish community to build a sense of well-being and for the is to see a much more flexible transition from social roots of community to be established. That is not housing to owner-occupancy. We have had the shared- impossible, but it is more difficult when there is a ownership scheme for some time, which has been successful constant turnover of tenants. It is a question of balance. up to a point, but it is a little limited in its scope. As we 87WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 88WH

[Iain Stewart] In November, the Conservative-led Government launched a scheme to underwrite mortgages worth hundreds of move forward, I want a scheme—this is a long-term millions of pounds for new homes. A central part of the plan over 20 or 30 years—whereby it will be easier for new housing strategy is the £400 million get Britain people who cannot afford a full mortgage at a particular building fund, which pays for the construction of up to point in their life but might be able to afford, say, a 16,000 new homes. The fresh drive could result in a quarter of the equity of the house to take that. I want a further 100,000 homes being built, so creating 200,000 flexible scheme so that as people’s circumstances change, jobs. they might be able to build up more and more of the I also congratulate the Government on the two new equity to reach full owner-occupancy later on. There initiatives that were launched this week, which will be are many suggestions about how we get there. I just crucial to aid first-time buyers. The NewBuy scheme want to put that on the table for the Government to makes it possible for first-time buyers and existing consider and to build on what has been an excellent set home owners to get a mortgage on a new build property of policies to help young people on to the ladder. with only a 5% deposit, as opposed to the 15% or 20% I will conclude my remarks now; I know that others that we are used to. This deal means that where buyers wish to contribute. Once again, I congratulate my hon. have been typically required to save a deposit of between Friend the Member for Winchester on securing this £30,000 and £40,000, they will now need only £10,000. excellent debate. The other scheme—it has been mentioned by previous speakers—is the right-to-buy scheme, which will enable council tenants to buy their homes at a discount and 10.5 am increases the maximum discount cap for tenants to Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I, too, £75,000. That will provide tenants who have the right congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester to buy or preserved right to buy with a real incentive to (Steve Brine) on securing this debate today. Buying a buy their home, and that is no bad thing. property for the first time is a huge undertaking for The schemes will make a big difference to the lives of anybody, but doing so has become increasingly difficult, constituents such as mine in South East Cornwall, as we have heard, in the current economic climate. This where things are particularly hard for first-time buyers. issue affects my constituents in South East Cornwall. Cornwall is a popular tourist destination, which attracts We have heard that it also affects the constituents of more than 5 million visitors each year. That has artificially many hon. Members. raised house prices in my constituency, as it has become First-time buyer numbers have tumbled to levels not attractive to affluent people from all over the country seen since 1974, with only 200,000 recorded first-time buying homes or second homes. The average house buyers in 2011, compared with 400,000 in 2005. People price in Cornwall is £216,000, according to the Land trying to get on the property ladder are struggling to do Registry for England and Wales. That does not seem so, owing to the increase in house prices. The average too high, but compared with the annual average wage in UK property price increased from £163,000 to just my constituency, it is very expensive. Average annual below £165,000 in 2011. This correlates with the rising earnings in Cornwall are just under £21,000, well below price of deposits, with many people needing to save for the averages for the south-west and for Britain. That years to cover the cost. makes it hard for first-time buyers to come up with a deposit for a house or flat, as they are competing with Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) wealthier holidaymakers who can afford properties in (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that we should be South East Cornwall. That is where the NewBuy scheme worried about not only the falling number of first-time will have a positive impact. buyers, but the age of those first-time buyers? That is The story was different 20 years ago. When I moved evidenced by the increase in deposits required. People to my village from Stoke-on-Trent, I could buy a property have to get to a much greater age before they manage to that needed renovating. Although even then there was a save up the deposit. massive difference in property prices, I had the opportunity to buy my own home. Sadly, young people in South Sheryll Murray: I was going to come to that point a East Cornwall do not have that option, as the older little later. In fact, my hon. Friend is probably psychic. properties have already been sold and renovated. The This is not purely an issue that affects young people; the situation is different from when I purchased a property average age of first-time buyers is 35. in the 1980s. The major issue is the fact that house prices are As a Government, we are doing what we can to help continually rising. Prices on the Nationwide index rose first-time buyers. I am confident that the figures will by 0.6% in February, and prices were 0.9% higher in become more encouraging after the Government’s February compared with a year ago. The house price to introduction of these fantastic incentives. borrower’s income ratio has been gradually rising since 2007, making it harder predominantly for first-time 10.11 am buyers. Another issue is that the number of mortgage approvals has remained generally flat since early 2010, Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): at below half pre-recession levels. Housing starts have It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, increased since the recession, but still remain below Mr Gray. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member pre-recession levels. The Government have recognised for Winchester (Steve Brine) on securing the debate. this issue. They have pledged to alleviate the struggle for The subject is important in a week when the Prime first-time buyers, and I congratulate the Government Minister has made two significant announcements. At a on that. time when the Liberal Democrats are taking policies in 89WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 90WH my manifesto and planting a nice yellow flag on them as time. Another year or two and I would have been the though they had always owned them, I want to ensure sort of sofa surfer that my hon. Friend the Member for that we claim both those policies as having been born, Winchester discussed. brought to fruition, made aware and brought to life in Why should my generation be denied opportunities the Conservative party, with a big blue sticker on them. that previous generations had? We should enable people, I am proud of what this party has done for first-time not tell them how to live their lives. It is a cultural battle buyers, not just since I have been an MP but since I was as much as a political or economic one, because it is born, and even since the party was founded. We have about the belief that housing policy is somehow about always been the party of the first-time buyer. I make no social engineering. It most certainly is not. It is about apology for that, and I am proud of it. I know that our enabling people to choose how to live their lives. Home critics—sadly, they could not arrive today—normally ownership is a natural objective for 86% of people, say that we are opposed to social housing and that we according to the Department for Communities and look down on it. Far from it; as my hon. Friend the Local Government. We should not sneer at that or Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) pointed think that it prevents our wider dreams of creating a out, we see the importance of the tenancy escalator. We new Jerusalem. Far from it. True communities come see social housing as a springboard or trampoline, not from families having a stake in the society in which they quicksand from which one should never escape. live. That is the nub in terms of policy. When those on the left criticise our NewBuy policy, I There is a reason why that is in our party’s DNA: we want to take them to Westminster Gardens in Bispham are real people with lived experiences. In my family, on or Hawley Gardens in Thornton in my constituency. my mother’s side, I had relatives living in Myrtle Gardens, The criticism is that we are doing it just for the sake of a modernist estate in the heart of Liverpool. It was the house builders. I want to take them around those rather like the Karl Marx-Hof in Vienna but, in that new estates. Westminster Gardens was being built five part of Liverpool, possibly more left-wing. In the 1930s, years ago, when I was first elected to fight the seat. It is it was a model of its time, but by the 1980s and the still being built; it is what is called a stalled development. Toxteth riots, it was a shadow of its former self. What Those who think that we are just trying to benefit house happened? Along came Lord Heseltine, who made sure builders should speak to the residents of that estate and that Myrtle Gardens was rebuilt and sold off to local find out what is actually going on there. people at prices that they could afford, which turned that estate around. In the heart of Liverpool, the A stalled development means that the local council Conservative DNA flickered, and we should be proud will not adopt the roads, so they are left with substandard of that as well. paving and road quality. They are left with dangers to small children from building sites and higher numbers Council estates should be more than just assemblages of road traffic accidents and injuries. Merely to say, of houses where we put people for social engineering “Oh, you’re just doing it for the sake of the house purposes, as many on the left have always sought to do. builders” shows once again the failure of the left to My home village of Weaverham, where many people engage with people’s lives as they are lived. Once again, bought their houses in the 1980s, was two-thirds council it is only seeing the schematics, which is deeply unfair to estates, mostly for people working in the local Imperial the people investing in those estates who want them to Chemical Industries plant. Looking around, I found be completed. that they built a community from within the houses that More concerning still is how our social housing market they bought; they did not rely on someone else to do it is blocked up, as my hon. Friend the Member for York for them. Outer said. Many social tenants now are not moving It is clear that after 13 years of Labour rule, the through the system. That is why large numbers are challenges that we face are far different. As other speakers stuck in temporary accommodation: there is not sufficient have pointed out, numbers of first-time buyers are turnover. Labour has almost destroyed the right to buy falling sharply, from 50% of all house buyers in May by tweaking criteria, lowering thresholds and trying to 2009 to only 20% now. My hon. Friend the Member for prevent people from buying their council homes. I am South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) cited the age of sure that Labour Members pay lip service to the concept, the average first-time buyer as 35. I heard 37. Maybe we but they do not believe in their hearts that owning one’s will hear an upwards bid from the Labour spokesman, own home is a good thing. They look on it with suspicion, although I doubt it. That is Labour’s legacy. distaste and almost distrust, which angers me. I could easily do cheap politics— Perhaps the most shocking legacy that we inherited was 50,000 statutorily homeless people. We do not Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): You have been for mention that figure often enough, as my hon. Friend the past half hour. the Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) pointed out. Because the social housing market did not work as it should, we inherited 50,000 people trapped in temporary, Paul Maynard: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman substandard accommodation. That is not a legacy of will get a chance to have a go at me later, and I look which the Labour party should be proud for one second. forward to hearing it, but since he encourages me, I will talk about union leaders occupying social housing and It is no wonder that groups such as Priced Out exist the fact that here in the royal borough of Westminster, to campaign for people of my generation—20 to 35-year- there are 2,000 social tenants who earn more than I do olds—who are being priced out of the housing market, as a Member of Parliament. Perhaps that should give us unable to afford a first house. I was fortunate. I bought pause for thought. Perhaps we should reconsider how in the last housing development in Greater London we use social housing and what it is for. I do not think where prices were still under £100,000. I got in just in that it is there to give Bob Crow a pleasant place for life. 91WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 92WH

Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): He has the Two of my favourite architects are Alison and Peter block vote. Smithson, a married couple who built many modernist buildings—probably many of them in Milton Keynes. Paul Maynard: I agree entirely. Perhaps we would like Some of their views were bizarre, and they had a vision to see a gesture from leader of the National Union of for housing. While they wanted to see the rubbish chute Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers as to what he replace the village pump, somehow they believed that will do in future. putting us all in high-rise blocks would enhance the We need to use our social housing stock better, which bonds of community. As a Conservative— is why I welcome the Prime Minister’s announcement on enhancing the right to buy. We have to stop seeing Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. I am sorry, but I our social housing stock as ghettos that we create. fear that the hon. Gentleman is launching into something When I first moved to London, into the housing of a tour de force on the whole of housing policy. We development that I mentioned, as ever, the housing have to focus. Two other hon. Members are trying to developer built the required proportion of affordable catch my eye before I call the Front Benchers. Perhaps housing at the end of a cul-de-sac; there were two rows he could focus his attention specifically on Government of cheaper housing, as it were. It became ghettoised and help for first-time buyers and possibly, out of courtesy stigmatised, as is always the case. We need to move to the two other hon. Members, wind up his remarks beyond that and to think of social housing as a resource quite soon. for the use of the community, not areas of a town or village that are regarded as somehow less worthy. That Paul Maynard: Thank you, Mr Gray, for your help. I has always been my concern about the social engineering shall therefore come to an end by quoting one of our aspect of housing policy, which many Labour Members predecessors, Mr David Eccles, a Member of Parliament seem to want to create—communities that they can for Chippenham, who said in 1948: somehow control. That strategy is desperately wrong. “Men are partly selfish and partly idealist, and they give their best when they believe they have a reasonable chance to put Owen Smith: I am listening with interest to—perhaps something in their pockets and to realise a fragment of their “enjoying” is the wrong word—the hon. Gentleman’s dreams.” comments. In his tour de force on the history of the left That is what the Government have been doing and what and its attitude to social housing, will he return to Nye we need to keep on doing. I shall give way so that the Bevan and the great period of the invention of social two following Members have their chance. housing in the aftermath of the second world war, and point to who on the left, in the Labour party, thinks of 10.24 am social housing as just a matter of social engineering? Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): It gives me great pleasure Mr James Gray (in the Chair): With regard to first-time to follow the passionate remarks of my hon. Friend the buyers, of course. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard). I compliment my hon. Friend the Member Paul Maynard: I am grateful to the hon. Member for for Winchester (Steve Brine) on securing the debate. Pontypridd (Owen Smith) for mentioning Nye Bevan, Like him and many other Members present, I am because in the interest of brevity, I had crossed out my prompted to contribute to it both to represent my paragraph on him. I shall reintroduce it into my speech. constituents and out of concern for the ability of my It was well known that what Nye Bevan wanted to children’s generation to get on to the housing ladder. I do— have four children aged between 13 and 26, who will wish to buy their own home and rather sooner, I suspect, Mr James Gray (in the Chair): Order. The hon. than the children of my hon. Friend the Member for Gentleman might like to return to the subject under Winchester. debate, namely, Government help for first-time buyers. The Government can support first-time buyers in two Nye Bevan can wait for some other time. ways: through financial support to enable them to get started, and through support for the development process. Paul Maynard: Thank you, Mr Gray. I shall bear that We have heard accounts from many hon. Members this advice in mind. morning about why action is needed. There has been It is vital that the receipts from the new right-to-buy some dispute about the average age of first-time buyers—it initiative are reinvested in affordable rented social housing, varies between 33 and 37—but we know for sure that it as I know has been made clear. The key aspect of the is much older than it was for my generation and my issue is the turnover of tenants in social housing. There parents’ generation. needs to be an escalator. People may start off in a As recently as 2005, 65% of first-time buyers were vulnerable situation needing full tenancies, but they aged under 30. By 2011, that had fallen to 22%. As a need to be able to move swiftly and quickly on and consequence, young people are remaining in rented escalate as high up as they wish. If that leads to home accommodation for longer, often permanently, against ownership, that is a good thing. However, we need to their will. Many remain at home with their parents, as I have fluidity in the social housing market, which we know from personal experience, and it is leading to a have not had under, I would suggest, any Government. culture change among our younger people. That has The changes that the Government are announcing this happened because, in the first instance, house prices week and those that are contained in last year’s housing have risen beyond the reach of many people; they are Green Paper mark the start of trying to regard our outside the multiple of average earnings—significantly housing stock as an asset for the whole community that higher than previously. The second issue is about lenders’ is not geographically restricted. deposit requirements, as lenders react to problems caused 93WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 94WH in earlier years by the granting of high loan-to-value urban extension is also being developed in my constituency. loans. The differential in my constituency is rather I urge Members and local councillors to encourage smaller than the problems faced by my hon. Friend the their councils to take as positive an attitude to new Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray); in housing development as my local authority. my constituency of Rugby, first-time buyers are looking The Government can do other things to improve to find sums of £25,000 as deposits. That is a significant supply and they are taking action. There is the build sum for people getting started. It is ironic that the fall in now, pay later scheme, which will free up land for house prices—something that we consider desirable development. The Government objective is for that to from an affordability perspective—is exactly what has deliver 100,000 new homes. Cash flow is an issue for caused lenders to look for larger deposits, as they try to builders, and that scheme will enable builders to buy the avoid making loans that exceed the value of the properties land out of the proceeds of a sale. The new homes against which the loans are secured. bonus is a simple yet powerful incentive. It means that It is important to debate the matter because first-time local authorities, such as mine, which promote and buyers are drivers in the housing market. They enable welcome growth will share in the economic benefits of others at the next stage of life to move on, and the development and use the funds derived from that to supply of housing is in itself an important driver of provide communities in which people want to live. The economic growth. community infrastructure levy encourages a more positive Many colleagues have referred to Government initiatives, attitude from local authorities to development, because such as the Firstbuy initiative and the NewBuy guarantee it means that the development itself will pay for the announced only yesterday. There is also local support infrastructure that goes along with it and that it will not for first-time buyers provided by local authorities. My be a burden on the local council. council in Rugby is helping first-time buyers. It announced, A further reason why local authorities should support just a week or so ago, £1 million in its budget for 2012 as housing growth is that it can support existing town part of the local authority mortgage scheme, which will centres. Recently, the Portas report has dealt with the enable 50 first-time buyers in Rugby to make a start on decline of many town centres. If populations remain the housing ladder. stable, town centres will need to shrink as people spend I want to focus my remarks on the supply side. We more on the internet and go out of town. An alternative can do whatever we like about supporting demand, but is to defend an existing town centre and allow for if we do not take action on supply, there will be no additional housing growth. I am delighted that my point. The Government’s housing strategy told us that authority is taking that route. in 2009-10, there were 115,000 new build housing I know that this is a debate about first-time buyers, completions in England. However, household projections Mr Gray, but I want to talk for a moment about people are growing at a rate of 232,000 a year. That means that known as second-steppers, who want to move from the housing that we are currently building supplies only their first home. It is crucial that those people who have 50% of the requirement. The cumulative position is started a family and want to move up from their first to worse, because the Chartered Institute of Housing tells their second home can do so, because if they cannot, it us that there is a backlog of something like 1.9 million creates a block for first-time buyers. Lloyds Banking houses, or a total of 8% of all households, built up over Group says that 61% of second-steppers want to move previous years. Therefore, even if we build at the rate of but have been stuck on the property ladder for 12 months. existing household formation of 232,000 a year, we will They often have the same problem as first-time buyers not go anywhere near providing the number of houses in that there is a limited supply on offer to them. that we need. Development therefore needs to happen However, crucially and often uniquely, they have to quickly. cope with the problem of negative equity as prices have The Government can and are doing several things to fallen over the past couple of years. make that happen. The national planning policy framework, In today’s market, many of those second-steppers which I understand is due to be announced on Budget would have bought close to the peak and, having got on day, with its presumption in favour of sustainable the first rung of the housing ladder, they are finding development, will encourage more land to be made it increasingly difficult to get off it. People can benefit available. We need our local authorities to be progressive from Firstbuy if they are moving to a new home, but and to develop plans that make land available for housing there is no particular scheme to support second-steppers. development, working with neighbourhood plans. People I would like the Minister to consider providing some often say that local people do not want new housing, help for that group. but in my opinion, whether existing communities accept I welcome the Government’s initiative for first-time new housing depends on the kind of question they are buyers. Schemes are being introduced that will assist asked. If we ask them, “Do we want to build houses in people to get on to the property ladder. I commend my an area that does not currently have housing on it?”, local council for its commitment to both the supply and most people will say no. However, if we ask people demand side of support and for ensuring that land is whether they want housing that will enable young people available. I ask the Minister to consider second-steppers to buy their first-time home and allow retirees to downsize, who want to move on. that usually gets the answer yes. Neighbourhood planning will enable local people 10.33 am to have their say in achieving that. I am delighted that my authority takes a very positive attitude towards Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I will keep my development. Work is about to start on a site with 1,300 contribution short to give the Minister and shadow new homes—the Gateway site by junction 1 of the M6 Minister time to have their say. I congratulate my hon. —and a site with 6,200 new homes in a sustainable Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) on 95WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 96WH

[Graham Evans] Labour disgracefully made repeated cuts to right to buy and deliberately reduced discounts and restricted securing this incredibly timely debate, given the eligibility. The new proposals to increase discounts announcements made by the Government this week. I dramatically will make it considerably easier for people recognise his comments about having a young family living in social housing to buy their home. Under the who climb into the bed—normally my side—at 4 o’clock new plans, for every home purchased under right to in the morning to warm their cold feet. I look forward buy, a new affordable home will be built in its place. to the day when they will move away—not too far, but That should allow for a further 100,000 extra affordable far enough. homes to be built and help create a significant number If there is any such thing as a British dream, it definitely of new jobs. involves owning one’s own home. I was born and bred Finally, the Government have also created the new in a council house on a council estate. During the 1971 homes bonus. That multi-million pound programme Macclesfield by-election, I remember a parliamentary rewards communities when they accept more house candidate knocking on our door. I went to the door with building in their area, creating a huge incentive to build my mother and a man was there with his blue rosette. the new homes we desperately need. Critically, the It was Nicholas Winterton saying, “Good evening programme also applies to empty properties brought Mrs Evans are you aware of the Government’s right-to-buy back into use, which will help end the scandal of thousands policy?” She was not, but we were after that and, in of good quality homes lying empty while people are left 1972, we bought our council house. in limbo for years stuck on housing waiting lists. Most people think that that was a Thatcherite policy, It is very clear that there are many exciting developments but it was, in fact, the Ted Heath Government of that will help bring the dream of home ownership much 1970-74 who introduced it. As my hon. Friend the closer to realisation for so many of our constituents. I Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul am very proud to support the Government, who are Maynard) said, it is in the Conservative party’s DNA to absolutely committed to making that happen. give people the right to buy. However, for millions of people, achieving that dream seems further away than 10.38 am ever. One of the most important things that any generation Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): As ever, it is a can do is build enough good new homes for the next pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. It generation. However, the previous Government presided was a slight disappointment to me that you forced us to over a fall in house building to its lowest peacetime level forgo what I am sure promised to be a stimulating aside since 1974. Inevitably, that led to a sustained decline in on my great hero Nye Bevan, but perhaps we can hear home ownership and soaring housing waiting lists. that another day. I, too, congratulate the hon. Member The figures are most depressing. The number of for Winchester (Steve Brine) on securing a very entertaining first-time buyers fell from around 501,000 in 1997 to debate and on giving me the opportunity to spend so 185,000 in 2009. That is the lowest figure since records much time with so many entertaining, warm and welcoming began. The average age of a first-time buyer without Government Members. financial assistance from the bank of mum and dad is, The debate is prescient given the announcements—or as was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for perhaps I ought to say re-announcements—earlier this Blackpool North and Cleveleys, 37. Admittedly, that week about the NewBuy scheme. I will come on to that age is somewhat exaggerated by the recording of divorcees in a moment. We have had an interesting range of buying a home on their own rather than jointly for the passionate contributions. There has been a rerun of the first time. However, it still highlights the current gloomy golden greats of the Tory past—Thatcher, Heseltine, outlook for many young people in my constituency Eden—and I even heard about building a new Jerusalem. who hope to get on to the property ladder for the first There were times when I could almost hear “Jerusalem” time. playing as the backing track to some of the tales of Luckily for those striving to own their own home, the bucolic English home owning. coalition Government are pursuing an unashamedly We have also heard some facts today, and I would like ambitious housing strategy to help boost opportunity to add to some of them to provide some context. Let us in our society. The Government are supporting an be clear: there is a crisis in housing and home building. innovative new build indemnity scheme led by the Council It is not new. It did not start under this Government. It of Mortgage Lenders and the Home Builders Federation has been going on for a long while and it is certainly that will allow home buyers to secure 95% loan-to-value getting worse. We need to be honest. Some of what the mortgages for new build properties. That will help people Government are doing is intended to help the crisis, but in two simple ways: it will increase access to affordable it is far from certain that they will be successful. As the mortgages, and it will encourage more homes to be Opposition, we intend to ask searching questions about built, driving down the long-term price of houses. what is intended and what will be achieved. The Government are also investing £500 million in a The facts are that, under this Government, house new Firstbuy scheme that will help thousands of people building is down, homelessness is up and it is harder to longing to be home owners to get a foot on the housing get mortgages. Rents in the private rented sector, where ladder by contributing to their deposit on new build many have been forced to go, are climbing. In part, that homes. Crucially, as announced on Monday, the coalition is because the Government’s broader economic strategy is also breathing new life into the hugely successful is not working. The construction industry is being hit right-to-buy policy. That policy was so popular because particularly hard as an effect of that failure to get the it gave millions of people the chance to own their home economy moving. Far from criticising the Government when they had previously thought it impossible—families for seeking to assist the construction industry, the such as mine. Opposition are urging them to go further. 97WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 98WH

Total construction, in terms of output, has declined five years. The Government have replaced that scheme by £2 billion since the Government came to power. New with their own far less generous scheme, which is worth work output by the construction industry is down almost just £250 million, and offers only a 20% reduction. a quarter, by 23%. It is not getting better—it is getting Other than that, the two schemes are largely similar. worse. The previous two months, December and January, The latest wheeze is the mortgage indemnity were the worst two months since May 2010. Compared scheme, which was re-announced this week. It was first with the last 18 months of the Labour Government, all announced in November. It is designed to help a further house building has fallen by 11%. Completions, where a 100,000 mortgage holders get on the property ladder house builder finishes a house and brings it to market, through effectively giving them a 9% reduction—or are now at their lowest levels since the second world indemnity—in the volume of their mortgage, thereby war, having fallen by 10% under this Government. That reducing the cost to the lenders and allowing them to is not a new trend; it is an ongoing trend, but it is offer 95% mortgages. There are many problems with getting worse. The 60% cut to Labour’s affordable homes that, but one is that 95% mortgages were already being programme has meant that only 454 affordable homes introduced into the market at lower interest rates, in certain were built in the past six months. Most shocking perhaps instances, than the ones announced by the Government. is that homelessness rose by 14% and rough sleeping Barclays, Nationwide and some of the other lenders was up by 23% in 2011. Those are the facts and Government involved are lending at an average of 5.3% and 5.4% over Members need to remember them. the period on the 95% mortgage, whereas 5.25% was First-time buyers are key to getting the market moving. already available from the Leeds building society on Government Members noted that the number of first-time precisely the same terms. We need to ask whether the buyers has decreased significantly over a long period, scheme does what it says on the tin. down from 700,000 per annum in 2004 to 350,000 in What guarantee is there that the scheme will actually 2010. Why? There was a lot of comment about that. assist first-time buyers? It is open to all prospective Ultimately, it is due to a squeeze between incomes and buyers up to £500,000. How can the Government be prices. House prices are high, and incomes have been sure that this will help first-time buyers? How can they depressed over a long period. As the hon. Member for be sure that it will go to those families who are most Rugby (Mark Pawsey) pointed out, the reason for that hard pressed, as opposed to those who are slightly is supply—we are not building enough houses. The better off and can perhaps afford to raise a mortgage? number of houses in the market is very limited and successive Governments, including mine, have not done Finally, how can the Government reassure us that enough to arrest that. The current Government should this will address the underpinning cause of the crisis in not kid themselves that they are getting anywhere near our housing market—the lack of supply? Can the Minister arresting the problem. offer us any guarantees that this will lead to a dramatic increase in the number of houses being built, or will it There is also a problem of affordability, caused by the simply displace activity, both in the mortgage market squeeze on earnings, limited supply and the contraction and in the house building market, that would otherwise in mortgage lending that has occurred since the credit have happened naturally as the economy bounces back? crisis. All those factors have combined to drive up the average deposit required by first-time buyers to approximately £100,000 in London and more than £50,000 10.47 am across the UK as a whole. The average age of unassisted first-time buyers has risen from 37 to 44 right across the The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe country in that same time period. Smith): I start by joining the round of congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Labour understands—and understood—that something Brine). He has not only secured an important and needs to be done to address that, which is why we set topical debate, but spoken with real passion. I pleased out to address supply. Between 2005 and 2010, we to respond on behalf of the Government, both to him delivered 256,000 additional affordable homes in England. and to those who have also contributed with passion, Contrast that with the scale of ambition shown by the whether from Blackpool, Milton Keynes, Cornwall or current Government, who propose to build just 170,000 elsewhere. We have heard about homes, homelessness, affordable homes—80,000 fewer affordable homes—in history and our hopes for our children. We have heard a comparative five-year period between 2010 and 2015. about stalled development and proper community What about helping first-time buyers get on the ladder? development, which I will touch on briefly. If Mr Gray Hon. Members will have no doubt read in The Daily will forgive me, I will also insert a small piece of history Telegraph this morning about the effect of the stamp from my own constituency of Norwich North. I believe duty holiday, which was introduced by Labour and is that the Mile Cross estate was the first council estate in being cut by the Government. Although a couple of England built outside London, something that I am months ago, the Chancellor dismissed the stamp duty very proud about. I shall stop there, before Mr Gray holiday as wholly ineffective, it has led to a 20% increase tells me to sit down. in recent months in the number of first-time buyers My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester highlighted applying for mortgages. That indicates clearly that, far the package of support that the Government have from being an ineffective measure, it was working and introduced to help people own their home, and I will set the Government needed to give it time to bed in and not out our progress on that. Before I do so, I will deal with abandon it, which is what they have done. some of the questions that were asked about the detail, The Government have also abandoned Labour’s principally by my hon. Friend. He asked whether NewBuy HomeBuy Direct scheme, which was funded to the tune could be extended to existing properties, not just new of £380 million and designed to help 10,000 first-time properties. NewBuy builds on an industry-led scheme. buyers by providing a 30% reduction on the loan over That is very important, because it builds on support 99WH First-time Buyers14 MARCH 2012 First-time Buyers 100WH

[Miss Chloe Smith] to take place at a certain point and, on the broad thrust of a year, if figures such as those I mentioned have been from both builders and lenders. It makes homes affordable, achieved, it is unlikely that it would continue to be a it stimulates economic activity, and, crucially, it increases sustainable way to support first-time buyers. supply. Let me turn now to the point of the debate, which is The Home Builders Federation estimates that new to query how we can best support those who wish to build could deliver 25,000 additional homes in three enter home ownership. There has been a clear correlation years, supporting in turn up to 50,000 additional jobs, in recent decades between wider economic problems which I think all hon. Members will agree represents a and volatility in the housing market. The best thing that real boost to the economy at a time when it is most we can do, first of all, to support the housing market is needed. improve the country’s financial and macro-economic On new versus existing, it is important to state that stability. That is why we are taking action to get public home building and the supply of new homes at present finances back on an even keel. Only through that action is not meeting the demand in the economy, so there is a will we give people the confidence to invest in new pressing need for new build in that sense. A scheme homes and allow the building industry to go ahead and focused on existing homes would be different and could build the homes that we need. have different financial consequences. We need to tackle the underlying structural issues My hon. Friend also asked about the first-time buyer that have had such negative consequences for the housing discount on stamp duty land tax, as did the hon. market. That is why the Government are taking action Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith). Hon. Members to improve stability in the credit markets and are reforming will be aware of a review by Her Majesty’s Revenue and the planning system. Without such reforms we will face Customs in November 2011, which brought forth some cyclical problems, time and again, of the sort experienced staggering numbers that they may not be aware of. The in recent years. However, we understand that we need to review indicated that only 1,000 of the additional first-time help people now, which is why we are taking action to buyers who bought a property between April 2010 and help first-time buyers and other purchasers own their 2011 would not have purchased it without the relief. own home. That 1,000 figure is derived from the 118,000 first-time The effects of the recent financial crisis were particularly buyers who used the relief, of whom it is believed pronounced for first-time buyers, as mortgage lenders 117,000 would have done so anyway. Hon. Members have cut back on low-deposit products. I can confirm, will agree that those remarkable numbers suggest that from Government figures, that the average age of an the relief was not effective in increasing the numbers of unassisted first-time buyer is 37, compared with 33 before first-time buyers entering the housing market. the crisis. The Government are taking action now to help first-time buyers and others to attain home ownership. Owen Smith: Will the Minister give way? On Monday, the Prime Minister launched the NewBuy scheme, which will deliver a significant increase in housing Miss Smith: Before the hon. Gentleman asks me supply—I have already put numbers to that—and access further questions, I must address his point about the to affordable mortgages for those without large savings cost of furthering the relief for a year being estimated at who wish to purchase a new home. The scheme is not £150 million. I hesitate to give way to him, because in aimed at borrowers who cannot afford the mortgage, his comments and the questions that he asked me, he but at borrowers who lack the savings to fund a deposit, once again showed his party’s rather tenuous grip on giving creditworthy borrowers a leg-up in the property credibility—if he thinks that such a sum represents market. I should like briefly to note hon. Members’ value for money in helping first-time buyers and other comments about second-steppers, who are important purchasers. He then quibbled about whether the scheme and have serious contributions to make in our effort to that I shall outline really helps first-time buyers. He get the housing economy moving. must ask serious questions if he thinks that £150 million Detail on products is available to Hon. Members who spent in that way furthers that aim with no dead weight. wish to look for it, but I can confirm that although prior to Monday there were no 95% loan-to-value new Owen Smith rose— build mortgage products on the market, today buyers will now be able to purchase a new build property with Miss Smith: If the hon. Gentleman would like to a 5% deposit. Builders are partnering with lenders to justify that, I am happy to hear him. offer 90% to 95% mortgages. Three lenders are offering new mortgage products in that arena. We expect more Owen Smith: I would have to look at the numbers builder-lender relationships and associated mortgage before lending them any credibility. It would also make products to be confirmed over the coming weeks and sense for the Minister to concede that her comments are months. This means that, in total, the Government have based on numbers predicated on a scheme that has not made provision to help up to 100,000 families and yet ended. She is talking about November numbers, young people to buy their own home. whereas the scheme runs through to March. The Council We are committed to invigorating the right to buy, of Mortgage Lenders suggested that there has been a which hon. Members have applauded in today’s debate. 20% increase in the intervening period, which will radically On Monday, the Prime Minister announced that we will change the figures. support social tenants who aspire to own their own home, by raising the discounts to make it attractive to Miss Smith: The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do so across England. Right to buy has already helped do that the scheme ends on 24 March 2012. No doubt nearly 2 million people since its introduction, but discount some will try to get in before then. Indeed, a review has rates were reduced by the previous Government and the 101WH First-time Buyers 14 MARCH 2012 102WH number of sales fell dramatically. From 2 April the Future Mobile Competition discount limit will be raised to £75,000 across England, so in London, for example, it more than quadruples the Mr James Gray (in the Chair): If those hon. Members current limit. It will help thousands of people realise who took part in the previous debate would like to their home-owning aspirations. However, we are also move on quickly and quietly, as Mr Speaker often says, committed to ensuring that it does not erode the social we can start this debate early, because both the Minister housing stock, which is why for every home bought and the hon. Member who proposed the debate are under right to buy a new affordable home will be built. present in the Chamber. NewBuy and right to buy sit within a broader suite of options intended to help first-time buyers and others into home ownership. Firstbuy, which was announced 10.59 am in Budget 2011, is a fixed-term measure designed to Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): It is a support the housing market, given constrained credit pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, availability and challenging economic conditions. Under Mr Gray, and I am grateful for the guidance that you that scheme, the Government and around 100 house have offered. builders are together providing some £400 million to What we are debating is extremely important to the assist almost 10,500 first-time buyers to purchase with a whole United Kingdom, to the communication links in 20% equity loan a new build property in England by our constituencies and to the economy in general, and spring 2013. We have had more 4,250 reservations since we are considering the future of the new generation of the scheme opened in September. The three largest mobile communications. From the outset, I want to pay participating house builders have reported sales of more tribute to the Minister and the Secretary of State for than 1,200 homes in the first four months. Hon. Members Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport for the priority will agree that those results show that the Government given and the commitment shown to the subject and for are taking action now, as needed, to support those who how they and Ofcom have reacted to the demands of wish for the first time, or indeed at other times, to be a the House and of the wider marketplace. home owner and to continue to build the kind of communities that we all aspire to see throughout the The new generation of mobile communications brings country for our children and grandchildren. fantastic opportunities for use and management of data to benefit business, the public sector and lifestyle and Once again I thank my hon. Friend the Member for for great efficiencies in ways that we can only imagine. I Winchester for his reasoned, thoughtful and passionate do not want to labour such points today, however, contribution to the debate that he has given us the because I want to focus on some of the technical issues opportunity to participate in. I thank other hon. Members in the latest Ofcom consultation. who have made equally passionate and inspiring contributions on what we all hope for those we represent. The UK has an extremely competitive mobile communication market, which has benefited the economy hugely and resulted in mobile communication prices that are among the lowest in Europe. Ofcom originally consulted on the 800 MHz and 2.6 GHz spectrum allocation and auction process last March. At the time, its proposal to require a 95% population coverage obligation caused considerable concern in Parliament. During an exceptionally well attended debate in the main Chamber, many Members called for an increase to a 98% population obligation. I am delighted that Ofcom responded positively and revised its preferred options in the new consultation to include a 98% coverage obligation, which shows a significant commitment to areas that were left behind following the 3G auction. Rural areas in Wales, England, Scotland and parts of Northern Ireland suffered under those arrangements.

Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important debate, although it is a shame that no one from the Opposition is present. Does he agree that the opportunity is hugely important for rural areas, because of the economic benefits provided to places that are otherwise remote and lacking in infrastructure?

Alun Cairns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for underlining such a valid point. The launch of 4G mobile communications will be the last opportunity for a valuable area of the spectrum to be used, auctioned and marketed to benefit the whole economy. Ofcom and the Minister have reacted to the demands of my hon. Friend and many of our colleagues. Let us compare that reaction 103WH Future Mobile Competition14 MARCH 2012 Future Mobile Competition 104WH

[Alun Cairns] Ofcom now believes that an operator can compete with others operating at a lower frequency, possibly with the 3G launch administered by Ofcom under the with a price trade-off in compensation for reduced previous Administration and the benefits for areas such indoor coverage. That is a respectable argument, but as Wales. Despite an auction that netted £22.5 billion, not one that I accept. I do not think that it is practical Wales has been left with only 79% 3G coverage, against or realistic for consumers to differentiate in such a way, 98% coverage in England. The 2G coverage in Wales even if the technological claims are robust. There is no remains at 89%, compared with 99% in England. We effective way, other than experience, in which even an might have expected the previous Government to invest informed consumer will be able to assess the quality of some of that fantastic 3G windfall into some of the indoor coverage of a service provider. not-spots, along the lines now being followed for 4G by Contract tie-ins range between one year and two the Minister and the Secretary of State. years, so switching provider in the short term is not an Even within the 98% 4G option, Ofcom presents two option, and coverage levels and quality could also change main alternatives, the first of which is to set the higher within that period because of further investment in but specific population coverage obligation to include additional masts, so confusing the situation further. It the outcomes of the Government’s mobile infrastructure could be argued that that was the position when each project. The second option is to specify a coverage generation of mobile communication was auctioned obligation by reference to the existing 2G network in and rolled out. At such times, however, the markets combination, plus the additional mobile voice coverage were developing and people were prepared to compromise added through the Government’s MIP.Strictly speaking, in the short term. Even after the 3G auction, Hutchison the second model risks not reaching the exact 98% used that business model to gain market share, but now population coverage, but it gives the opportunity to go that the market has matured, all operators compete on well beyond that, dependent on the MIP roll-out and its similar terms. nature and form. Intense competition would not exist over the longer I therefore support the second option, with its greater term in a mature market without the availability of opportunity, but ask that Broadband Delivery UK consult 800 MHz or any further spectrum auction to sustain actively in and outside Parliament on how best to use market interest, and the whole intention of the policy to the resources that the Minister and Secretary of State maintain four credible national mobile operators in have made available. I ask BDUK to pay particular competition would be undermined. Over the longer term, attention to the sort of data on Wales that I mentioned the operator without 800 MHz or 900 MHz would walk as a result of the deficiencies of the 3G auction. away or be subject to a takeover by one that had the desired spectrum. A further significant difference between the two Ofcom consultations relates to the breakdown and split of the I therefore urge Ofcom and the Minister to consider spectrum and the proposals to guarantee national wholesale splitting the auction portfolios, so that four operators competition on the current scale. That is of fundamental have the opportunity to secure low-frequency spectrum. importance to maintaining the strong competition and That is less prescriptive than the first consultation, but benefits thereof that I mentioned earlier. We need to each operator, including the possibility of a new entrant, remember that the 800 MHz spectrum is the most must have the opportunity. There are only three pairs of desirable to all operators. It allows the best coverage 10 MHz blocks, and my proposal could mean splitting possible both in and outdoors. In simple terms, it travels to up to six pairs of 5 MHz options with appropriate further and penetrates buildings much more effectively guarantees, which is similar but not identical to what than higher ends of the spectrum. was offered in the first consultation. That would deliver long-term sustainable competition, protecting the consumer The March 2011 consultation guaranteed such provision in the best way, rather than by regulation at a later stage. for two operators, partly because Telefonica and Vodafone currently operate on the 900 MHz spectrum, which Finally, I want to turn to data roaming. Charges by holds similar properties to the 800 MHz level. The all operators at the moment are wholly unacceptable, auction was to be split into portfolios, starting at a pair with monthly bills running into possibly hundreds of of 5 MHz blocks. Some believed that such a level pounds for people travelling in Europe or north America. offered insufficient capacity and others objected to two The European Commission recently proposed a cap of operators gaining an absolute right to the 800 MHz ¤100 per gigabyte, which could be multiplied by five to spectrum. Responses to the consultation led to changes, reach a retail price of up to ¤500 per gigabyte, equating by removing the preserved rights for two operators and to £420 per gig. Clearly, that is far too high and undesirable increasing the portfolios to blocks of a minimum of for individuals and businesses. 10 MHz. The European Parliament recently voted to halve the The basis of that change is significant, because Ofcom wholesale cap to ¤50 per gig, which is encouraging, but revised its opinion on the interpretation of the reach of I would ask the European Council to move still further. the 800 MHz spectrum, by comparison with that of the Most infrastructure spend has already been made. By 1,800 MHz spectrum. At the outset, it believed that comparison, UK consumers pay £10 per gig within the operators with a large amount of low-frequency spectrum UK, and even after reform, data roaming could still would have an “unmatchable competitive advantage”, cost £164 per gigabyte at the reduced level by 2014. but the latest consultation shows that its position has Clearly, it is necessary radically to reduce roaming changed and it now believes that low-frequency spectrum prices. Lower wholesale rates drive market competition is not a necessity for all operators—if an operator had and allow operators to develop lower cost propositions. sufficient 1800 MHz spectrum, it would still be able to The regulations will be finalised in June, and I ask the compete. Minister to respond to these calls in the same way that 105WH Future Mobile Competition14 MARCH 2012 Future Mobile Competition 106WH he and Ofcom responded so positively to the shift from engage with modern life, because they allow people to the 95% coverage obligation in the 4G auction to the access a wide range of services, such as handling their 98% coverage obligation. bank accounts, paying bills, doing homework, or accessing I will bring my remarks to a close by emphasising the Government services. Equally important, they allow priority that the Government and the Minister have many small and medium-sized enterprises to increase given to such an important policy.We are in the last-chance their footfall and access to different marketplaces. All saloon in marketing the new generation of mobile that needs to be sorted out. communications strongly, effectively and efficiently to When I was appointed, it was clear that unblocking gain and maintain the right level of competition. There the release of 4G spectrum to the market was essential. is a threat that some operators may pursue challenges My hon. Friend alluded to the fact that the debate has through the courts, but I hope that an arrangement can been going on for a number of years. We were at one be delivered on securing the right level of competition, minute to midnight, so we ordered Ofcom to conduct a so that all may be reassured, but with ultimate choice to combined auction of 800 MHz and 2.6 GHz spectrum the consumer, while driving prices down in a similar but as soon as possible. Ofcom has consulted extensively on not identical way to that in which the 3G auction was that, not once, but twice. The 4G auction is not just used. about faster broadband; as I said, it will help improve coverage. Having listened to my hon. Friend and others, the auction design now includes demanding coverage 11.11 am obligations of up to 98%. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, We must not forget the important role of competition Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is a in the UK’s mobile communications market. When we pleasure, Mr Gray, to serve under your chairmanship directed Ofcom to design the auction rules, we made it this morning. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member absolutely clear that we want to maintain a four-operator for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) on securing this marketplace. We want a competitive marketplace, not important debate. I think it is the first since we announced just because it drives down prices for consumers, but the mobile infrastructure project, so it gives me the because it encourages innovation. We believe that it is opportunity to update the House on what is happening. important to retain that level of competition, so in the My hon. Friend is fast gaining a reputation as something run-up to the auction, we directed Ofcom to assess both of an expert in the sector. In the Back-Bench debate, he current and future competition in the UK market, and led the calls to increase the coverage obligations for the to take that into account in the design of the auction. 4G auction, and those calls were listened to, as he A major point that my hon. Friend made was his acknowledged in his speech. He has given a highly concern about the parcels of 800 MHz spectrum that accomplished résumé of some of the key issues surrounding are to be auctioned. He suggested that those parcels mobile competition, which only he and a select few should be 5 MHz rather than 10 MHz, and pointed out others in the House probably understood. That is a that that was proposed in the original consultation measure of his expertise. document to enable all four operators to have access to It was apparent to me when I took up my post as the 800 MHz spectrum. Ofcom conducted genuine Minister with responsibility for communications that consultation. It is often said that consultation is a sham, this matter is incredibly important and that we must get and that minds have already been made up, but Ofcom it right. I sometimes joke—perhaps I should not—that listened to the industry, and its overwhelming view was I never thought that I would be quite so excited by that parcels of 5 MHz were simply not big enough to spectrum policy management as I am, and the reason is have appropriate capacity, so Ofcom has proposed parcels that it is fundamentally important to the future of the of 10 MHz. The consultation has now closed, and we UK economy. We know that the internet has already await the final auction rules, and the mobile operators’ contributed something like one quarter of the value of reaction. growth in gross domestic product in the UK in recent As my hon. Friend well knows, the circle is difficult to years, and without a vibrant communications sector square, because sub-1 gig MHz—that is, the 800 and that growth would be stunted. In the last year, almost 900 MHz to which he alluded—is seen by some as the two thirds of mobile handsets sold were smartphones. best sort of spectrum because it travels further and There is a huge hunger for data, and more and more penetrates further, as opposed to spectrum above 1 gig, people will access the internet and data on portable which has greater capacity. In conducting its analysis of devices, whether smartphones or tablets. future competition, Ofcom took the view that that gap To increase his already considerable expertise, I urge was narrow, and my hon. Friend will have seen that my hon. Friend to read the recent speech by Ed Richards, Ofcom announced proposals yesterday to liberalise the highly effective chief executive of Ofcom, on dynamic 1,800 MHz for 4G services. spectrum management, which will be the next challenge We now find ourselves in an unusual position. Operators to ensure that white space spectrum—the spectrum that above 1 gig have been arguing for a long time that they sits between the spectrum that we allocate in more must have guaranteed access to sub-1 MHz, otherwise conventional ways—can be used. There is real hunger they cannot compete, and those operators with sub-1 for spectrum as more and more people acquire devices. MHz spectrum are jumping up and down and saying Spectrum is necessary not just for capacity, but for fast that those with spectrum above 1 gig now have a huge speeds. No one wants a smartphone that takes ages to competitive advantage. Interestingly, whichever operator download a website. someone works for, it always appears in their world Spectrum and broadband access are becoming view that other operators have an extraordinary competitive increasingly like utilities such as water, gas and electricity advantage. However, I will adopt the tone taken by my in that they are a fundamental tool with which to hon. Friend and say to all operators that the time for 107WH Future Mobile Competition14 MARCH 2012 Future Mobile Competition 108WH

[Mr Edward Vaizey] Getting the industry on board is an essential part of delivering the project. We issued the first step in the arguing about such matters in the courts has long procurement process, a prior information notice, before passed, and that for this country to maintain its economic Christmas, and responses to that and to a further industry edge and dynamic communications market, we must consultation document issued in January have given us proceed with the auction and with spectrum liberalisation, a clear picture of what the industry is expecting to see which in any case we are required to do by the European throughout the process. We followed up that consultation directives. with a series of meetings and workshops to ensure that I am immensely pleased that we have secured Treasury what we are doing is fit for purpose, and that the capital funding for the mobile infrastructure project that my infrastructure will be used to best effect. hon. Friend mentioned. In the autumn statement, the Following detailed discussions with mobile operators Chancellor announced that £150 million would be set about the best solutions to the problems of overall aside to fund that project which, where possible, is coverage, we are moving swiftly. We intend to begin a intended to cover mobile not-spots. As I said earlier, procurement process this spring with a view to signing a that money was secured because of the increasing contractor to provide the necessary infrastructure by recognition that mobile broadband coverage is becoming the end of the year. Ideally, benefits will begin to be felt as important as fixed broadband coverage—if not more this time next year, and the whole project will be delivered important—particularly in rural areas. within a highly stretching three-year timetable. Since that announcement, my Department has worked My hon. Friend’s third point was about data roaming, closely with Ofcom to define the scale of the problem and speaking as a layman rather than a Minister, I have and identify the so-called not-spots. As my hon. Friend an enormous amount of sympathy with that. On a will know, a great deal of commercial sensitivity surrounds recent trip to the United States I experienced my own the precise location of those not-spots, and mobile version of bill shock because of the sheer cost of data network operators understandably guard such information when abroad. That is also a huge issue in the European closely. Subject to agreement with data holders, however, Union, and the point has been made time and again, we intend to publish an indicative map that will give not least by the effective commissioner for digital services, hon. Members a sense of where the project will focus. Neelie Kroes, that too many UK citizens who travel to Additionally, we must communicate with the European Europe—as increasingly people do not only for leisure Commission to ensure that the project meets the but for business—have to get into the habit of turning requirements of state aid regulations. off their phones. That essential business tool and gateway As I said earlier, the mobile infrastructure project is to the things on which we increasingly depend has to be intended to cover areas where there is no coverage from turned off when going abroad, even just across the any mobile operator—complete not-spots. In other areas, channel to France, because of concerns about the price an individual might think that there is no coverage, but of data. they may be with an operator that does not have coverage As someone who in principle is reluctant to intervene in that area—a partial not-spot. Ofcom is working in the market, I looked slightly askance at the Commission’s closely with the industry to see whether that can be efforts to reduce the prices first of voice roaming and addressed. Of course, such matters are commercially now of data roaming. However, its efforts to reduce the sensitive because any operator that has invested in a cost of voice roaming have been effective, and in principle network in one area would look askance at a second the UK is supportive of the directive on data roaming. operator that was able to work in the same area with There are probably a few details that need to be ironed financial assistance from the Government. We must out, but we have urged progress on that directive because work with the operators to try and ensure that they all we recognise that it presents opportunities that will begin to provide coverage in areas that are not currently allow consumers to conduct their business more cheaply covered. and effectively. The definitional phase of the mobile infrastructure The issue is more problematic outside the European project is nearing completion and I am aware, not least Union because we would have to negotiate via the from debates such as this, of the strong and increasing European Union, perhaps as part of the World interest in it. My fellow MPs can rest assured that we Telecommunications congress, to provide a solution for will engage closely with the devolved Administrations global data roaming. That is not something on which and with those local authorities that will be most affected the UK can take a unilateral decision for its customers by the project—or, to put it another way, those that are and operators; it would have to be an EU-wide agreement destined to benefit most. Such engagement will ensure on a global basis. I understand the concern, however, that people’s voices are heard when designing the overall and progress on the data roaming directive this year solution, and that where choices need to be made, the should begin to make a significant difference to customers. project meets local needs. It will continue throughout Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I will be brief the lifecycle of the project and allow local considerations due to the time. Is the Minister aware that, on the to be taken into account. fringes of the EU, if someone returns from a Greek A lot of work is being done to improve mobile island, for example, one minute they might be on a coverage, and we must ensure that our planning Greek mobile network but the next minute, because of complements that. We are also seeking to achieve synergies its proximity, they move on to the Turkish network? with the rural broadband programme, for which That happened to me. When they get home and get £530 million has been set aside, and that may include, their mobile phone bill, they find that some calls were for example, sharing backhaul—the fibre connections quite cheap while others were extortionately expensive. that are required for fibre in the ground and mobile People are perhaps not aware of that issue when they go connectivity to work. to the fringes of the EU. 109WH Future Mobile Competition 14 MARCH 2012 110WH

Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend makes a good point, and Women’s Aid countries such as Latvia and Lithuania, which are on the fringes of the European Union, have concerns about how to implement the data roaming directive. I will [DR WILLIAM MCCREA in the Chair] investigate the issue of roaming across Greek and Turkish networks, and I will write to my hon. Friend to explain 2.30 pm whether the European Union is engaging with Turkey on that. Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab): I am grateful to have secured this debate on My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan women’s aid and safety and access to benefits, and to has been a doughty champion of this issue, not only for speak under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. I am also his constituents but for all those who live in rural areas, pleased to welcome the Under-Secretary of State for in recognising that people must not be excluded from Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Basingstoke the digital revolution, and that access to fixed and (Maria Miller), who has a great interest in the subject mobile broadband is becoming an ever more important that we are debating, and of course my right hon. part of people’s businesses and lives. I hope that I have Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire). used this opportunity to update my hon. Friend, and I invite his comments on the effectiveness of the mobile The theme of the debate is, unmistakably, women’s infrastructure project, and on our progress on data aid and safety and access to benefits, but it is also roaming and the auction, which we hope will proceed predicated on an enlightened understanding of the scourge with alacrity and minimum delay. of domestic abuse, which is the root cause of the problem. I believe that there is a moral duty not to just 11.29 am pay lip service to an endemic problem visited on far too many women. Domestic abuse was succinctly articulated Sitting suspended. by the psychologist and author Susan Forward, PhD, who described it as “any behaviour that is intended to control and subjugate another human being through the use of fear, humiliation, and verbal or physical assaults…it is the systematic persecution of one partner by another”. Having assimilated and carefully studied the erudite view expressed by Dr Forward, I wish to proceed. The consequences of domestic abuse are simply horrific and lead women into a very dark place. They live a life in the most sinister, corrosive and destructive environment, which is as near to hell as it is possible to get on earth. Living under a reign of constant fear and terror of mental and physical torture damages the self-esteem of the victims, but what incalculable damage does it inflict on innocent children? We can ponder that. They, too, are often scarred for the rest of their lives. One of the foremost international diplomats, renowned for resolving conflict around the world, the former UN Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, once said that domestic abuse “denies women their most basic human rights, such as the right to health, and undermines the social and economic development of communities and whole countries…Domestic Abuse is widespread and cuts across class, age, religion and ethnic group…it has long been established that there can be no justification for any form of Domestic Abuse.” He concluded: “Domestic Abuse is perhaps the most shameful human rights violation, and it is perhaps the most pervasive. It knows no boundaries of geography, culture or wealth.” Monklands Women’s Aid provides a first-class service to women and children in my constituency. Before institutions such as Women’s Aid existed, many women were forced to suffer in a chilling silence for the sake of their children. When we think back to previous generations, we can only wonder with incredulity at how many women lived in hell. We will never know how many were driven to such a level of despair that they took their own lives. Clearly, most women did not have a way out of their oppressive environment. I am sure we all agree, irrespective of our political differences, that we do not want a return to those days. We have to understand that many of the 111WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 112WH

[Mr Tom Clarke] As I have discovered, if a woman requests refuge, a risk assessment is carried out to ensure that the service partners have not only a physical hold over those women, and refuge will meet her needs. A home application and but a mental hold, an iron grip, which is extremely benefit check is completed for the user. A doctor is then difficult for many women to break free from. Women’s put in place to assess the health of the woman. If Aid is now inculcated in our society. Thankfully, women necessary, women are taken to hospital immediately. of this generation are not alone and they realise that Social workers, community psychiatric nurses or various they have a place of refuge. support networks are contacted, with the woman’s permission, for continued support. If the woman wishes, Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I congratulate the police are called. Throughout the process, workers my right hon. Friend on securing this important debate; from Women’s Aid offer continued support. If children I know that sentiment will be echoed across the Chamber. are involved, relevant schools and nurseries are contacted Like him, I pay tribute to my local Women’s Aid and I and provision put in place to make the transition for the also pay tribute to Trafford rape crisis centre. There are woman as seamless as possible. A children’s service is some excellent organisations, as he says. Does he agree put in place as part of the outreach programme. When that in addition to the physical and mental abuse that he women are leaving the refuge, support workers help describes, there is financial abuse? As has been shown, them to move to their new tenancy and offer much when women are under financial pressure, it is more needed help and support. difficult for them to flee an abusive relationship, so at Institutions such as the NHS and police services can times of rising female unemployment and reduced access do only so much in providing support to women who to financial benefits, more women might be trapped in are in desperate need of help and protection. The refuge the home in exactly the circumstances that he describes. is the foundation for all services provided by this organisation, and it signifies the basis of a new life for Mr Clarke: I agree and I hope to deal with some of many women. It is still desperately needed by many women the issues that my hon. Friend raises. That was an in emergency situations—when their lives or their children’s excellent intervention. lives are at risk. A refuge is a haven that, on multiple As an organisation, Women’s Aid has supported women occasions, has saved lives. from all social and financial backgrounds and continues In all candour, the proposed reforms by the Government to do so. One in four women will experience domestic are worrying. All the services that I have described will abuse at some point in their life. Two women a week are effectively be wiped out, thus leaving Women’s Aid with murdered by a partner or ex-partner. Women living the sole service of signposting women to other support with domestic abuse are five times more likely to suffer services—if they still exist. from depression. In 90% of domestic abuse incidents where children are present in the home, they will be in Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): the same or the next room. Before my right hon. Friend moves on to what may lie ahead for women in the future, may I remind him that when a woman seeks a Women’s Aid refuge, it may be Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): My right hon. the first time in their lives when they, as the partner of Friend is citing horrific statistics that are all too familiar. someone who has abused them, find themselves without In some areas of my constituency, there are spikes in the money? The first port of call will be the Department for occurrence of domestic violence that are way out of Work and Pensions. All too often the delay in securing kilter with the national or local average. I ask that money through the benefit system is bad, so much so Ministers look at the areas where there are spikes and that some 30% or 40% of women find themselves, out of find out why they are happening. sheer frustration, going back to the marital home and to the abuser, which is no answer to their problems. The Mr Clarke: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for system is already far too slow to respond to the needs of making an extremely significant point. On average, a women. woman will be assaulted 35 times before reporting it to the police. It is the case that 30% of domestic abuse Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend bases his contribution on either starts or escalates during pregnancy. Domestic experience, and he is absolutely right. He has outlined abuse can account for up to 25% of all recorded crime. the problem that many have faced and sadly might face Let me outline current practices and why they should again, so we must take it seriously. be cherished. What is the present position in terms of Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I access to benefits? The present position permits congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the organisations such as Women’s Aid to go through proper debate. Its importance for me stems from the fact that procedures to ensure the safety and health of women the very first refuge in this country was created in my who come to them. Here, as they recognise, is the constituency. Does he agree that housing is an issue and tragedy: many women who are experiencing domestic that pressure needs to be put on councils to put women abuse blame themselves for what is happening to them. who are in a refuge, especially those with children, Clearly, it is not their fault. The only person to blame is higher up the priority list for permanent housing? the perpetrator carrying out the abuse. Temporary housing is not good enough. Bed and breakfast Monklands Women’s Aid, in its last annual report, accommodation is not appropriate for children because shone a light on the scale of the problem. The contact they need some stability in their lives. made with Monklands Women’s Aid involved 4,310 women, 1,202 children—from birth to 12 years—and 1,056 young Mr Clarke: Housing is at the heart of everything that people aged from 13 to 19. If such an organisation did we are discussing and I welcome what the hon. Lady not exist, we would need to invent one. said. Perhaps this is an opportune moment to assess 113WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 114WH what is likely to happen, including in housing, post being forced to live in perpetuity under a reign of terror April 2013. Essentially, the key change is that housing from an abusive partner? In 2013, is that the best we can benefit will be paid directly to the claimant through do for abused women and children? I think not. Although universal credit, which will adversely affect Women’s Aid. I have political differences with the coalition Government I recognise the imposition of a system in which on a range of issues, 1 simply do not believe that they people are always better off in work than they are on want to make life any more unbearable for vulnerable benefits. However, the so-called simplification of merging women and children. income-related jobseeker’s allowance, housing benefit, Let me now address my remarks to correspondence child tax credit, working tax credit, income support and that I recently received from my right hon. Friend the income-related employment support allowance into a Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford single universal payment is not without problems. Although (Yvette Cooper), Labour’s shadow Home Secretary and it may be desirable on paper, it will undoubtedly bring shadow Minister for Women and Equalities. She has with it chaos for individuals and other charitable launched a consultation on women’s safety, which will organisations. examine the impact of the Government’s decisions on Please be assured that the proposed changes would women’s safety and consider how to protect and enhance have a serious detrimental effect on Women’s Aid centres it. The consultation is being chaired by Vera Baird QC, throughout the United Kingdom, and certainly in my who will be supported by my hon. Friend the Member constituency. for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), the shadow Minister for Equalities, and my hon. Friend the Member Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): Like many for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), the shadow Home Members here, I supported trying to get individuals Office Minister. I intend to contribute to this new responsible for their housing benefit. The fact that 75% commission. now have to pay out of their own housing benefit is a I genuinely wish to report that I have made positive step forward for individuals. However, I agree representations to the Government and that they have with the right hon. Gentleman that we must ensure that listened and acted in a manner that does not put women’s women in refuges or in Women’s Aid are allowed to personal safety in jeopardy. For the record, I plan to have their housing benefit paid not directly to them, but invite Labour’s commission to visit and meet the to the supportive housing. I understand that the Department management of Monklands Women’s Aid as well as the is still considering the matter, and I share his concerns victims. In a spirit of fairness and even-handedness, I that we need to ensure that the most vulnerable do not extend a similar open invitation to the Minister and her have to deal with their own finances and housing benefit team. in this way. On one unique occasion, I visited Women’s Aid to meet four women from different backgrounds and with Mr Clarke: That is an important point and I am different experiences of domestic abuse. Listening to grateful to the hon. Lady for drawing our attention to each woman describe their lives was quite depressing; the fact that the Department is now considering the to think that so many have to live their lives in such fear matter. I hope that her points and those made by other and anxiety is truly distressing. Listening carefully to hon. Members in this debate will be taken on board by numerous examples of abuse, and sitting alongside the the Department. victims explaining their plight, was emotionally draining. The changes under discussion would force women There is a world of difference between reading about who go to Women’s Aid in moments of crisis to pay up such stories in a book or newspaper and hearing first front for refuge. That is money they simply do not have. hand such dreadful experiences. The bottom line is that The majority of women who seek help from Women’s an abused household is no place for women and certainly Aid have few clothes and belongings, let alone the no place for an innocent child. money to pay for refuge. Nevertheless, at present, Women’s I was shown a work of art that a victim’s young Aid can provide refuge to any woman who turns up at daughter had drawn. It had originally been on her its centres because it can claim a share of management bedroom wall in the abused household where she had costs through housing benefit. That crucial point was lived. It was a self-portrait, showing a tear racing down underlined by the hon. Lady, and will no doubt be her cheek. Yet, after a few days in the refuge, the girl underlined by others. The last thing that distressed took down the drawing from the wall. We all very much women should be worried about is paying for refuge. Of welcome that first step towards the happiness that that all 4,000 women who were assisted by Monklands Women’s child was entitled to enjoy. Aid group in 2011, not one of them turned up with enough money to cover the cost of the refuge. Women often come to the charity having had their family broken into pieces, yet there is a real sense of There is an unshakeable belief, held by those who togetherness at the centres that allows them to feel as if manage this service and by me, that existing resources they are joining a new family. The four women I met will simply not be available. The private sector manager had differing stories of abuse, but there was one common in North Lanarkshire council has confirmed that Women’s feature—all of them felt trapped in their lives, as if Aid received local housing allowance of £895.16 every there was no way of escape. They would never have four weeks for service users. Under the new rules, it may been released from that stranglehold of entrapment and get £456.92 for four weeks. That is a terrifying prospect, suffering had it not been for the help of Women’s Aid. which the Minister will have to address sooner rather The tremendous sadness that I felt initially turned to than later. delight as I witnessed how these women had managed I am now at the very heart of my argument. I have to to turn their lives around, not only for themselves but, pose the question: do the Government want women most importantly, for their children and for their loved with small children walking the streets or, worse still, ones. 115WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 116WH

Kate Green: My right hon. Friend is very powerfully Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): As patron of the evoking the experiences of women and their children Wirral Women and Children’s Aid refuge, I know only who have suffered abuse. Does he agree that one of the too well the harrowing stories of women when they things that those women particularly value when they arrive in refuge, having suffered terrible abuse. Obviously, go to a Women’s Aid refuge is that it is a service the imperative is that they are looked after straight designed for, run by and informed by an ethos that is led away. However, time and again, we talk about how to by women’s experiences? If so, does he share my concern break that cycle of violence and that continuation of that increasingly services are being contracted out to abuse. Should that not be one of the main imperatives organisations other than Women’s Aid—non-specialist in future, because the figures on abuse have gone up organisations that do not have that necessary empathy year after year after year? We must break that cycle of with the women, however well-meaning they may be, violence immediately. and, indeed, can sometimes make quite crass decisions? For example, we heard just the other day of a provider Mr Clarke: I agree absolutely with the hon. Lady, but that had advertised for new staff to work in its service if—as I saw at Monklands Women’s Aid—staff at centres and had actually put the address of the local refuge in a are compelled to contemplate the financial circumstances newspaper. that they are facing as an organisation, that might take away some of the time that they would like to allocate Mr Clarke: Again, my hon. Friend makes an excellent to the wider objectives that she quite properly identifies. point. Certainly, the sheer dedication of the women For many women, the fact remains that refuge is working at the centres, which I have seen at Monklands desperately needed in emergency situations when their Women’s Aid and elsewhere, is awesome, and I do not lives and their children’s lives are at risk. I hope that I think that it can be replaced by commercial considerations. have convinced the Minster that Women’s Aid is indeed I therefore welcome what she has said. a special case.

Amber Rudd: May I just make the observation that Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Just 10 days ago, men can also be very helpful and sympathetic on issues I had the opportunity to visit the Women’s Aid centre in of domestic violence? I, too, congratulate the right hon. Bangor; it is in North Down, but it is also responsible Gentleman on securing the debate. for Strangford, which is my constituency. The staff there very clearly indicated the financial squeeze that Mr Clarke: I am again very grateful to the hon. Lady faces them. They illustrated it by talking about the for her intervention. Although it was not going to be a future not only of the centre in Bangor, which is responsible theme of my speech—given the title of my speech, it for a large catchment area, but of the staff. If the should not be a theme—I am aware that a minority of Government do not address those issues, I fear that the men are also abused and I know that that is something future of Women’s Aid will have a question mark over that we would want to consider. it, not only in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency but in mine. The women I met at Women’s Aid said that they feared for what their life would have been like if it had not been for Women’s Aid. Meeting those women first Mr Clarke: Again, the hon. Gentleman speaks from hand showed just how vital organisations such as Women’s experience and I passionately believe that we should not Aid are to our country. In many cases they can literally ignore such experience. He is dealing with what he sees transform an individual’s life for the better. I was given in his constituency, day after day, and also reflecting an opportunity by my local Women’s Aid office to meet our experiences in our own constituencies elsewhere. some of the women they serve. Most people would Frankly, there are life and death issues at stake here, never get that close and my abiding memory is of the and children can be victims of abuse too. We need to warmth and friendliness that the organisation sends out ensure the provision of free and safe refuge, which is in abundance, which colleagues have rightly acknowledged crucial to the safety of women and children who are today. suffering abuse. That is an inviolate principle. At a time We need to appreciate that women can be mentally of desperation, people in Monklands, across Scotland and physically tortured by their partner and that they and—as we have heard—throughout the United Kingdom often turn up at Women’s Aid penniless, with nothing must be afforded the opportunity to seek refuge. Most other than what they are wearing and with traumatised regrettably, domestic abuse is a considerable problem children who are in desperate need of urgent help. across our country. Women’s Aid is the last resort for victims who are in a Women’s Aid also performs a major role in the continued state of anxiety and who—emotionally speaking—are development of the children who are affected by abuse. standing on the edge of a cliff. In that situation, the last In many families, children are often caught in the centre thing that women should be worried about is paying for of a storm, and thus Women’s Aid focuses its attention refuge. on providing continuity for such children. When women are provided with refuge, there is a full I urge the Minister to reconsider the current proposals range of follow-on services to ensure that they and their on housing benefit. My plea today is that she reflects children are safe. Along with support workers, the women upon the comments that I and others make. Later, other plan their future and one of the most important factors hon. Members will undoubtedly make valuable taken into account is their safety and that of their contributions to the debate, and it is more than likely children. Refuge is the foundation for all the services that they will be based on the kind of experiences that provided by Women’s Aid and for many women it we have already heard about from hard-working, signifies the basis of a new life. conscientious constituency MPs. 117WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 118WH

This subject and the real people who suffer domestic directly to women? That is important for protecting violence are too important for there to be a partisan women’s financial situation. It is not going to be rolled Government. I am leaving an escape route for the up in universal credit. Government when I refer to the unintended consequences of their proposals. If the Government ignore my Mary Macleod: I agree. That will make a difference to representations, that could have a devastating impact women in such situations. on women across the country, leading to more women In my constituency, domestic abuse and violence is at and children walking the streets. the top of the police agenda in west London. The police We need the continuation of the marvellous back-up take it very seriously. The matter was brought home to services that are provided by Women’s Aid and—lest we me when I was out campaigning on the streets one day, forget—managed by outstanding, caring people. Today as many of us do as Members of Parliament, and a I want not only to convince the Minister but to gain 16-year-old boy asked me what I was doing. I explained support from all parties. We cannot and we must not and asked him, “What is the most important issue abandon women who are seeking refuge. In the words around here?” He looked me straight in the eye and of the late Mother Teresa of Calcutta: said, “Domestic violence.” I was really moved by that. “Being unwanted, unloved, uncared for, forgotten by everybody…is Perhaps some of the work that has been done on a much greater hunger, a much greater poverty, than the person prevention and in schools is beginning to make an who has nothing to eat.” impact now and young people are beginning to understand that it is an important issue. I have visited refuges in my constituency. They are a haven for women who need 2.59 pm them at their lowest point in life and at their time of need. Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I congratulate the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, I raised the issue of housing earlier, because it is one Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) on securing this of the important factors for allowing a woman to debate on an incredibly important part of so many rebuild her life following an abusive situation. Hestia, women’s lives. The right hon. Gentleman has already an organisation in London, put together a report that I identified statistics that show us how important the launched on international women’s day last week. The subject is. He mentioned that one in four women will report made some good recommendations on housing, experience domestic abuse in their lifetime and that two such as having someone at the council who is trained in women are murdered each week. That has been consistent and understands domestic abuse issues so that they can over the past decade and not enough has been done make the right decisions. An important aspect is the about it. It is important, if I may say so, that a man—a link to temporary housing, which came home to me gentleman—has raised this issue today. The more that when a woman visited my weekly surgery one day. She men speak about the issue, the more it is seen as has a seven-year-old child and for 18 months has been important. in one of the refuges in my constituency. She is currently on band C on the housing register, which in London The physical, mental and financial abuse suffered has probably means a wait of six or seven years to get already been mentioned. I stress the importance of proper housing. those three aspects. There is still a lack of understanding that domestic abuse can incorporate all three aspects. I started a campaign to persuade Hounslow council—my Physical abuse is easy to see, but mental abuse is not. council—to try to move victims of domestic abuse up People are less likely to understand it and therefore the priority list. Avoiding temporary housing or bed women are less willing to come forward and report it. and breakfast accommodation would really make a The financial side that was mentioned earlier is about massive difference to the lives of women and their control. It often starts with financial control, which children, because temporary housing, unlike permanent leads to other things. housing, means more instability. Kate Green: I totally agree with the hon. Lady. She Kate Green: I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady’s will know that it is often necessary for women to move a analysis. Does she agree, therefore, that we ought to be long way from the family home and potentially to alarmed that one of the features of the universal credit another local authority.Does she agree that local authorities is that it will be paid to one member of a couple? That receiving women who are fleeing abuse from a different may increasingly mean that women in abusive relationships part of the country should treat them with the same will not have independent income, which will increase priority on the housing list? That is often not the case at the possibility of financial abuse. the moment. I have a case in my constituency.A constituent wanted to be moved to the other side of Manchester—to Mary Macleod: I think universal credit will help a different local authority—but it simply was not willing women in domestic abuse situations, and I am sure the to give her the same priority. Minister will address that issue in her reply. It is important to give women who are in such situations the support Mary Macleod: I completely agree; the hon. Lady is that they need and also emergency funds at the time absolutely right. Women usually have to go far away they need them. from where they initially lived to ensure their safety, so they need councils to recognise that and give them Amber Rudd: Does my hon. Friend agree that one of priority. Even if councils initially gave priority to women the benefits of universal credit, which I am sure we will with children, it would be a start. Then I would like to hear more about, is that child benefit—as we know, it widen it to all women—all people—who are in refuges. will be paid only to lower earners—will still be paid It would make a tremendous difference and enable them 119WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 120WH

[Mary Macleod] From my right hon. Friend’s analysis, we can see the benefit of the experience he brings to this subject. He is to rebuild their lives. They have been through horrific an assiduous constituency Member of Parliament and circumstances and we have a duty of care and humanity he keeps in touch in a way many of us might replicate; to them. We should be able to say, “We will help you to I am not saying we are all bad constituency MPs, but I create a fresh new start that is positive and could make a can verify that he is one of those Members who is real difference to you and your children.” known to all his constituents and who knows all of I am pleased to see some of the work that has been them. It is not often we get the opportunity to pay a done on rape crisis centres. We have opened additional little tribute to one of our colleagues, and I hope his ego centres in London. That will help to make a difference. I can stand it. want to ask the Minister about work on preventive My right hon. Friend’s analysis of the situation was measures and early intervention, Some great work has telling. He emphasised that it is not only statistics that been done on early intervention, including teaching are important. As politicians, we talk about statistics, young people about the importance of healthy relationships but every one of them represents an individual person and respecting the right to say no. Preventive work is who is part of a family, a street and a wider community. also being done with women at high risk. We have a sort That was echoed in the contribution by the hon. Member of payment by results approach. Is there more that we for Brentford and Isleworth and in other Members’ can do to support the organisations that are doing great interventions. preventive work in that area and in schools? There are two themes in the debate, but I want to I congratulate the Government on the call to end concentrate more on one of them, although I appreciate violence against women. The paper came out last year. I that the Minister will wind up on both. One theme is the congratulate the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, responsiveness of the benefits system to women—it is Chryston and Bellshill on the positiveness of this debate. mainly women we are talking about. I hope, however, On issues such as this, it makes me feel that we can work that that is not misunderstood; as the hon. Member for together to find solutions that will make a real difference. Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) mentioned, this is not We can work across the House to find a solution that just about women, and there are men who find themselves will make a long-term difference to many women who, in this position. However, the overwhelming majority of unfortunately, go through horrific circumstances. cases involve women, so, for shorthand purposes, I will talk about them.

3.08 pm Amber Rudd: The point I was making was that I welcomed the fact that men are participating in a debate Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): I am delighted to that is primarily about women. I totally support what follow the hon. Lady the Member for Brentford and the right hon. Lady says, but I also welcome the fact Isleworth (Mary Macleod). It is a pleasure to be in that it is not only women who are supporting action on Westminster Hall under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. this important issue. I do not think that we have met in these circumstances before. I am delighted to be here today. Mrs McGuire: I appreciate that. I may not have I want to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the explained myself properly. I was saying that there are Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill men who find themselves on the receiving end of domestic (Mr Clarke). I have known him for many years, long violence. However, I fully endorse the hon. Lady’s comment before he was a Member of the House. I know from that this is not just a women’s issue; it affects women, previous experience that he has long been an advocate but we should all be interested in it. I am more than for support services for women, not only in his own happy to make that clear. constituency, but across Scotland. For Members who As I was saying, there is the specific issue of how the may not be as aware as I am of my right hon. Friend’s benefits system responds. There are then the wider history, he was the president of the Convention of elements that have been highlighted, and there is significant Scottish Local Authorities at one point. expertise at practitioner and political level on some of My right hon. Friend has done rather a lot in his them. It is fair to say that some of the issues about the life—for a man who is only 45. He was president of benefits system relate to continuing uncertainty about COSLA when local authorities in Scotland were trying what the new Welfare Reform Act 2012 will deliver. to come to an understanding of what violence against People who rely on some element of benefit support women—it was mainly, but not exclusively, violence and who are in or—this is increasingly the case, sadly—out against women—meant for those women, their families of work face uncertainty as the Government roll out and their communities. He was part of the drive in their welfare reform programme. We have had some Scottish local authorities to recognise the problem and pretty robust debates on welfare reform, and I will not deliver services. It is fair to say that that was not always go back over them. However, we want to see what can easy. Many local authorities turned their face against be delivered under the new legislation to make sure the provision of such services, and many a battle had to people understand what its impact on them will be. be fought to establish the idea that there should be a I want, therefore, to deal with some specific points discrete service focused on women’s needs as part of about the impact of the new welfare legislation on mainstream activity. I hope my right hon. Friend does women who face domestic abuse or domestic violence. not mind my embarrassing him, but we sometimes As the Minister will be aware, the benefits system is forget that people had a life before they came into designed for the many, but it must also show sensitivity Parliament, and it is worth putting part of that history to individual circumstances. I hope we all agree that on the record. such circumstances are sometimes difficult to anticipate 121WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 122WH and, even when we do anticipate them, difficult to but although that voluntary activity is important, it is frame provisions for in primary legislation. I hope she not the only element of the support that is given. There will be able to give Members and, more importantly, are services that have a cost attached to them, and we those who face the trauma of domestic violence some cannot ignore that. confidence that what is being put in place can respond to individual circumstances. The test of any benefits Kate Green: Does my right hon. Friend agree that system is not the high-level principles or the high-level that might have an impact on providers of specialist legislation, but what the system means to an individual services, such as those for minority ethnic women, or when they are at a point of need and how responsive the very young women? Such organisations cannot take system is. advantage of economies of scale, by providing for large numbers, as some housing associations can; but if we Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): lose that specialist provision, some very vulnerable young The right hon. Lady has come to an important point. women will be reluctant to go anywhere for support. Does she agree that one consideration for women who face the threat, or who are victims, of domestic violence Mrs McGuire: What my hon. Friend says echoes in deciding whether to go to Women’s Aid or other such what I said at the beginning of my speech about how groups is often the impact that that could have on the the benefits system relates to specialised individual needs. benefits to which they or their family are entitled? The I hope that the Minister will give us some comfort on female at risk often gives more serious consideration to that matter. that than to the fact that she is being abused. I suppose that my direct question to the Minister is whether those in receipt of local housing allowance who Mrs McGuire: I totally agree. That echoes the point go into women’s hostels will receive just the basic housing made by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and allowance; or will the hostels be able to charge an Galloway (Mr Brown)—he is no longer in his place—who additional amount, to be covered by the local housing said that, given that uncertainty, women go back go the allowance? My right hon. Friend the Member for household where they were abused. If they have never Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill made that point engaged with the benefits system—and even if they starkly when he talked about the pressure on Monklands have—there is an element of uncertainty about the time Women’s Aid. There may be a misunderstanding, and if frames. It may not be entirely clear what will happen to so I am sure that we would love to receive clarification. their child benefit. Who gets the child benefit at the The Minister appreciates that some women and, as I moment? Technically, it goes to women, but that might have said, some men are forced to leave their homes as a not be the case in some abusive relationships. As well as result of domestic violence and need not just a roof having to deal with violence and abuse, women face that over their head but significant support. The hon. Member financial uncertainty. We should not underestimate how for Brentford and Isleworth highlighted that.Like other difficult it is for women who are trying to get out of a hon. Members, I hope that the Minister will consider violent situation not only to have to worry about the how to finesse the new system of local housing allowance impact of the violence on them and their children, but to take account of those additional services. Otherwise, to face uncertainty because they might be stepping off I fear for the long-term viability of women’s aid the edge of a cliff and they do not know what will organisations that provide hostel accommodation. happen. I totally endorse what the hon. Gentleman says. I am echoing comments that other hon. Members have made when I say that some women who have left Will the Minister tell us how organisations that offer home may have little or no experience of budgeting, or hostel and supported accommodation will be treated in may be in such a state that budgeting is the last thing on the assessment of housing support assistance in the new their minds. The direct payment of rent in those system? Currently, supported accommodation providers circumstances would benefit some people. I agree with are allowed to breach the local housing allowance cap, the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye that, in principle, because an element in the costs allows them to charge giving people the independence to pay their own rent is for additional support services, such as those provided good practice. Indeed, we introduced that when in by Women’s Aid or similar organisations, although government, because it lessened some of the stigma Women’s Aid is obviously the principal provider. effects—the “No DHSS here” signs and other such We are seeing a real-terms cut in supported housing things—but we must be realistic and say that in some costs across the country, and we cannot run away from specific circumstances people would benefit from having that. Local organisations that offer accommodation their rent paid directly. I hope that the Minister will will therefore face a cut in any circumstances. Indeed, consider a range of exemptions, to allow those who there is evidence to suggest that women’s aid organisations want it and who feel that they need it at the time in are receiving a greater funding cut than local authorities— question to access direct payment. I may be wrong, but there is a differential of 4% or 5%. There is therefore I understand that the Minister, or the Department, is uncertainty, and if organisations that offer supported currently considering such exemptions. Perhaps she will accommodation cannot make up the additional costs, be able to give us interesting news. there will be a real threat—this is what my right hon. The Minister will be aware that on Monday a Delegated Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill Legislation Committee debated the Jobseeker’s Allowance was alluding to—to the financial viability and, indeed, (Domestic Violence) (Amendment) Regulations 2012. the very existence of their hostels. The Government’s proposal to ease some of the JSA The Minister understands the commitment of those conditionality on those coping with domestic violence in organisations such as Women’s Aid who are able to was unanimously accepted. We certainly welcome that give the support that is needed at a very difficult time; decision, which implemented elements of the Welfare 123WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 124WH

[Mrs McGuire] else—and not necessarily, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green)pointed out— Reform Act 2009. Although there have been, as I said people they know? earlier, some robust Divisions on welfare reform provisions, Another element on which I wish to question the the regulations in question were welcomed by my right Minister is the way that the new universal credit regulations hon. Friend the Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms). will work for those who have had to leave home because However, I want to ask for the Minister’s view on an of domestic abuse. Universal credit is a household issue on which the views were not unanimous: how benefit, and a test of its responsiveness to individual welfare reform will affect the capacity of women’s aid circumstances will be how flexibly it enables one allocation organisations to seek housing for women. There are to a household to be deconstructed when one partner serious concerns about the effect of the change to the leaves the household, often in traumatic circumstances. shared-room rate of local housing allowance under That is a question not just of the speed of response, but the Welfare Reform Act 2012 on victims of domestic of how that will give the confidence that was spoken of abuse and the possibility that it will make it difficult for earlier. I appreciate that the decision makers dealing some women to move easily from hostels to independent with these issues might not deal with them daily, but we accommodation. The fact that the age limit is being need some confidence that they will be able to respond extended from 25 to 35 makes it difficult, particularly quickly to those who need to establish a second claim for women who have been used to an element of for universal credit under the new regulations. independence. Is the age of 33, given all the other things happening in the life of such a person, really the time—I Kate Green: I want to ask about women who flee should not say “you”, Dr McCrea, but in Scotland “you” violence and do not go to a refuge, or who leave a refuge is the vernacular for “one”—when you should think to set up their own home. Does my right hon. Friend about going into shared accommodation, perhaps with agree that another concern about the welfare reforms is strangers? There is concern about that; I have certainly the uncertainty about the localising of the social fund? picked it up from women’s aid organisations. Many women fleeing domestic violence depend entirely on the social fund to set up their new homes. Does she Kate Green: I agree that that is a concern, particularly agree that it would be useful if the Minister indicated for women who have had traumatic experiences of what guidance will be issued to local authorities under violence. They will be reluctant to move into shared the Welfare Reform Act 2012? accommodation with people—potentially men—they do not know. Is not the likely result therefore that some of them remain in the refuge, reluctant to leave, so that Mrs McGuire: That is a good point, and I am glad there will be a sort of bed-blocking situation? Then that my hon. Friend has slotted it in. other women who need to flee to the refuge will not be There is a question about how the social fund will able to do so. be delivered to the devolved Administrations. Will it go directly to them or to local authorities? Will the devolved Administrations be the intermediaries? The Mrs McGuire: That is the general feedback that reason why I highlight that in the presence of my right many hon. Members are getting from women’s aid hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge, Chryston organisations. The age of 35, for women in that situation, and Bellshill is that he has had bitter experience with is perhaps inappropriate. an allocation of funding at a UK level for respite care for disabled children. As a proportion under the Amber Rudd: It would be interesting to see the evidence Barnett formula, it went to the Scottish Government, for that. I say that in all honesty, because the right hon. but then—I shall be generous—we could not quickly Lady’s argument is interesting, but for some women identify where the money went. It appeared to be wrapped being in shared accommodation with other women in a up in other funding packages; it certainly did not appear refuge might be helpful. Shared support is important. to be delivered as my right hon. Friend’s Committee intended. Mrs McGuire: That is a fair point, and it was the I will wind up with one or two general points. We argument prosecuted by the Minister on Monday.However, have focused to a certain extent on the benefits side, but it is one thing to offer women the choice to stay in there are wider issues. Although I appreciate that the accommodation with other people; for many women Minister does not have direct responsibility for those that would not be their choice. Although it is anecdotally- wider issues, I hope that she will take them on board in based, the view that that requirement might be an her discussions with her colleagues. It is fair to say that impediment to moving women into their own women’s support services feel that they are facing a accommodation has a strong resonance in women’s aid precarious future out there, owing to the uncertainty of organisations. funding. It is widely recognised that domestic abuse The regulations passed on Monday proved that the accounts for between 16% and 25% of violent crime in general can be finessed to the specific, and I hope that this country. It is not disappearing. It is there, and our the Minister will discuss with her departmental colleagues police forces are aware of it. whether some easement of the relevant aspect is possible, Cuts are being made to policing. We can debate how so that women, many of whom have been their own many and how much. Street lighting is under pressure, person for a long time, will not be forced into a particular as are women’s support services, including refuges. All choice, but offered a range of choices. Are we really those factors affect the wider issue of women’s safety in going to say to those women that the only option for this country. I hope that the Minister will allay some of them at 33 or 34 is to share a flat with someone our fears and give my right hon. Friend and me confidence 125WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 126WH that she understands the issues and is prepared to see MPs all too often see in action. We can do so by how the Government, particularly the Department for working with children, as my hon. Friend the Member Work and Pensions, can respond. for Wirral West highlighted in her contribution. I am mindful of hon. Members’ concerns about Dr William McCrea (in the Chair):I am sure that we future funding for services that support victims of domestic would all agree that the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, violence. I hope that hon. Members will be content Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke)had a distinguished to hear that the Government constantly consider ways career before first coming to the House. He will be to strengthen protection for victims and that we have happy to know that we do not need birth certificates to taken a different approach by ring-fencing nearly £40 million be produced to agree with those comments by the right of stable funding up to 2015 for specialist local domestic hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire). and sexual violence support services and rape crisis centres in England, as well as funding the national 3.33 pm domestic violence and stalking helplines. It is the first time that funding has been ring-fenced on a stable basis The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work for domestic and sexual violence victims, and I am clear and Pensions (Maria Miller): It is a pleasure to serve that local authorities should view funding for services under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. I congratulate to support victims of domestic violence as essential. the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and The right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston Bellshill (Mr Clarke) on securing this debate. We have and Bellshill will also be aware that in Scotland, decisions worked together on numerous issues in recent years, on funding applications for projects that focus on tackling and I know that his tenacity and commitment are violence against women will be announced shortly by second to none. I underline how important it is that we the Scottish Government. I am pleased, as are key debate this issue. My hon. Friend the Member for partners such as Scottish Women’s Aid, that funding for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) said that it is an issue violence against women, including victims of domestic for both men and women, and the fact that the right abuse, will be maintained throughout the spending review hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill period. I hope that he will welcome that as a concrete secured this debate underlines that. commitment. On behalf of everybody who has contributed to this The right hon. Gentleman’s main point involved housing debate, I pay tribute to all the organisations involved in benefit, but other Members discussed the broader issue supporting women, men and children facing the ordeal of the benefits system, so I will address that first, of domestic violence. I marvel at the work of the hopefully providing some of the reassurance that hon. Basingstoke Rape and Sexual Abuse Crisis Centre in Members seek in these times of change. We heard from my constituency, which employs a dedicated group of the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), who people who bring a much-needed service to an important spoke for the Opposition, about this week’s approval for part of my constituency. I am sure that all hon. Members proposed changes to jobseeker’s allowance regulations. can look to similar organisations in their constituencies. That legislative change will now come into force on I am grateful for this timely opportunity to discuss 23 April and allow victims of actual or threatened how the welfare system supports and will support those domestic violence who are in receipt of jobseeker’s affected by domestic violence. As hon. Members have allowance to be exempted from job-seeking conditions mentioned, significant changes will take place as a for a period of up to 13 weeks, provided that evidence result of the Welfare Reform Act 2012, particularly the from an appropriate representative can be produced introduction of universal credit. Domestic violence is a and that other conditions are met. That will continue dreadful act of abuse, and the Government are absolutely with the introduction of universal credit. determined to tackle it. There are many matters that I It is right that victims of domestic violence who claim would like to discuss in response to the issues raised by JSA or are new to claiming it can spend some time hon. Members. I will try to address each in turn. focusing on stabilising their lives. As we have heard It is unacceptable that 7% of women and 5% of men from hon. Members today, that is a challenging time for reported having experienced domestic abuse in the past the individuals concerned, and they need time to get year. That is equivalent to around 1.2 million women their lives and, where applicable, their children’s lives and 800,000 men. The violence against women and girls straight. It is also right that they can do so without action plan, launched in March 2011, was refreshed having to demonstrate that they are actively seeking or earlier this month and sets out numerous commitments available for employment, or face the threat of sanction. that the Government have made across the board: to Hopefully hon. Members will feel that that is a clear improve prevention, which my hon. Friends discussed sign of the Government’s commitment. in interventions; to challenge attitudes and behaviours A further sign of how seriously we take the issue is by taking action early to ensure that the perpetrators of that alternative support remains available via the existing violence are brought to justice; to support victims of JSA domestic emergency exemption for victims who are abuse in all its forms better by working with partners to either unable or perhaps unwilling to produce evidence. reach out across communities, and to ensure that We have a twin-track approach, which is important Government support is appropriately tailored to victims’ to note. individual needs. While the easements that operate under JSA are, as I To pick up on the points made by my hon. Friends have explained, commendable, they are somewhat complex. the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) and for That is why the Government are already taking steps to Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod), it is absolutely clarify them as we move forward with universal credit. right that prevention must be at the heart of our approach, That shows our clear commitment in the area, and I as well as breaking the cycle that we as constituency hope hon. Members will welcome that. 127WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 128WH

[Maria Miller] Kate Green: I appreciate the exemptions that have been made. However, housing organisations such as On the subject of today’s debate, housing benefit, Crisis and Shelter have pointed out that if an exemption some victims of domestic violence live in a hostel or a for people leaving homeless hostels is enshrined in refuge. Currently, many, if not all, refuges have their legislation, there seems to be no objection to having the rents met in full through housing benefit, which is same exemption for women leaving refuges. usually paid directly to the hostel. Refuges are exempt from the local housing allowance, and residents have Maria Miller: Our approach is to empower local their housing benefit worked out using rules that recognise authorities to have the sort of discretion that can make the additional costs that the hon. Member for Stretford all the difference in such cases. Each individual case is and Urmston (Kate Green) talked about in her intervention. different, which is why the discretionary housing payments The Government consulted last year on changes to are important and why we are putting so much more the way in which housing benefit meets the costs of taxpayers’ money into that—to give local authorities people living in supported housing, such as refuges. Our the flexibility that can make all the difference. consultation paper, “Housing benefit reform—Supported The right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston housing”, was published on 19 July 2011, and the and Bellshill said that he felt that there may have been consultation period ended on 9 October 2011. We are some indication of a reduction in the amount available considering the responses to the consultation and intend to pay for refuges. I make this clear to reassure him: the to bring forward proposals as soon as possible for consultation on refuges that we have been through is implementation in 2013. Let me clarify that we do not not intended to be a cost-cutting exercise. We want to intend to change the way in which payments of housing make the rules fairer and ensure that help is better benefit are made to people living in hostels or refuges. targeted on those who need it. It is about ensuring that All tenants who live in the social rented sector, as well as the money we have reaches those who need it most. I those living in supported housing, normally have housing hope that that reassures the right hon. Gentleman about benefit paid directly to their landlords. That will continue housing benefit. His debate is timely because we are until housing benefit no longer exists and is replaced by moving forward at the moment to talk to stakeholders universal credit between 2013 and 2017. on that issue before we formulate regulations and before Mrs McGuire: As well as the process of payment, will they are looked at through the positive procedures of the calculations allow hostels to have a higher charge this House. than that which would be commensurate with social Hon. Members also talked about universal credit and housing in the area? how that will affect people who are at risk of or have experienced domestic violence. I believe that the system Maria Miller: There are a number of specific points, will hold a great deal of good for individuals who find such as the one just made by the right hon. Lady, that I themselves in such a situation. One of the important want to go into. I will deal with her point first. contributions—as a constituency MP, I can empathise We currently support around 170,000 claimants living with this—stressed that sometimes the issue is about the in supported accommodation through housing benefit. timeliness, or the lack of it, of support in place for They receive on average an extra £40 a week in housing women who find themselves in a refuge. A delay in benefit in recognition of extra costs. We expect higher receiving financial support at that point can be extremely payments for that sector to continue. I hope that the distressing. The current complexities of the benefits right hon. Lady feels that that starts to answer some of system can do little to help speed that process up. That her points. is why I feel strongly that universal credit will greatly The right hon. Lady also asked several questions benefit some of the most vulnerable groups in our about how hostels will be treated under universal credit. communities. Currently we are considering how we will support housing costs for people in hostels under universal credit. Our Amber Rudd: Sometimes, it is important to pay housing consultation is helping to inform that, and we will benefit directly to refuges to secure their financial future. involve stakeholders in the process before we issue Private landlords may get into trouble or have difficulty, regulations. but they are supported by the law and can enter into The right hon. Lady asked some important questions negotiations with their tenants. For refuges, having a about people who are subject to the shared accommodation secure financial commitment is important to their survival. rate. I reassure her that the situation applies to a distinct group of individuals: those who are under 35, on their Maria Miller: My hon. Friend speaks with great own, with no children, and moving into private sector passion on the subject, and I thank her for her intervention. accommodation. She is probably already aware that She is pushing me a little further than I am able to go at many exemptions are in place for vulnerable groups, for the moment, but I hear loud and clear what she is instance those who receive the severe disability premium. saying about the importance of ensuring that there We have also introduced several further exemptions is some certainty there. I would like to make it clear to from this January, for example for ex-residents of homeless her and other hon. Members that the work that we are hostels who have received help to resettle in the community. doing is not intended to unsettle or jeopardise the I reassure the right hon. Lady that if there are still financial futures of the refuges. That is not something individuals who, local authorities feel, require their own we intend to do. We do not want to do anything to space, discretionary housing payments are also available, damage the sector. and they have been increased by some £130 million. Universal credit will be a simpler way of people That will allow local flexibility and discretion, which applying for benefits, and will significantly benefit this can make all the difference in such cases. group of women particularly. We will introduce a system 129WH Women’s Aid14 MARCH 2012 Women’s Aid 130WH of payments on account, so that some individuals can do that to ensure that those who are particularly vulnerable get payments made, even if not all the details of their and in difficult situations are getting the support that claim can be sorted out straight away.Again, simplification they need. and a fleetness of foot will assist people in these very Under universal credit, there will continue to be a difficult situations. 13-week exemption to conditionality where there is Throughout the development of the reform—universal evidence of threatened or actual domestic violence. In credit—we have worked very hard to ensure that safeguards addition, the application of conditionality overall will are put in place to protect vulnerable people, including be more responsive to the needs and circumstances of victims of domestic abuse. That includes those still individuals. Importantly, advisers will be able to have residing within the household and those who have been crucial discretion to vary or temporarily lift requirements forced into a refuge. The right hon. Member for Stirling where a claimant is subject to a change in circumstances who speaks for the Opposition highlighted the single that means that they cannot reasonably be expected to monthly payment made to households. We have put take even limited steps into work. That discretion can that in place because we feel that it is important and help individualise the support that we give people in integral that it is the family’s responsibility to decide those difficult circumstances. how a payment is made and to manage their own The situations faced by victims of domestic violence finances. are very varied and therefore, beyond a three-month However, as the right hon. Lady said, of course, there exemption, we believe that it is right to take a case-by-case will be exceptional cases. It is important that any system approach and give advisers those sorts of discretions. can deal with and support those exceptional cases, As part of the move towards self-sufficiency, in the where a single payment into one account may compromise cases we have talked about, universal credit will be paid the safety of household members. We have therefore directly to tenants rather than to landlords. There are ensured in the Welfare Reform Act 2012 that there is a elements around direct payments that are still being power to split payments between members of a couple considered, and the role of hostels and refuges are part in the case of a joint claim. The hon. Member for of that. However, let me assure hon. Members that we Stretford and Urmston also raised that. will do that in a way that protects the income of social landlords. The Government have absolutely no intention Kate Green: The Minister is right that there is the of doing anything that will damage the sector. I hope option for universal credit to be split between members that the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston of the household. However, does she not agree that it and Bellshill will find that commitment a reassurance at will be difficult for a woman to seek that in a situation this time. where there is financial abuse, as was mentioned by the The debate is extremely timely. My colleagues in the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod)? Department and I will consider very carefully all the I realise that it is well beyond the opportunity to get the comments made by hon. Members from both sides of legislation changed, but will the Minister at least assure the House. We need to examine carefully the circumstances me that the Government will keep a careful eye on the in which alternative arrangements for payment of universal impact on those women of a single payment to one credit will need to be made. We will start a process of member of the household in relation to the financial working with key stakeholders over the next few months abuse that the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth on what should be included in regulations, with a view rightly raised? to publishing a draft set of regulations in due course. I assure hon. Members that I am committed to ensuring Maria Miller: I absolutely assure the hon. Lady that, that the right safeguards are in place, particularly in the in all aspects of the reform we are undertaking—whether case of victims of domestic violence. Again, I underline it is this or another aspect of the Welfare Reform my thanks to hon. Members for sharing their thoughts Act—we will keep a very close eye on how things are on this matter. I assure them that they will help inform working in practice. She is absolutely right: we have to our discussions as we move forward. 131WH 14 MARCH 2012 Freedom of Information Act 132WH

Freedom of Information Act can assess whether any attempt was made to evade the requirements of the Freedom of Information Act? The Minister for the Cabinet Office told me that he would 3.56 pm not publish it due to a long-standing convention, but Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I requested this debate can the Minister tell me why he and his colleagues to seek clarification about a specific piece of Cabinet cannot even tell me in what form it was communicated? Office guidance that was apparently issued to the Surely there is no convention around that? Freedom of Department for Education last year to clarify its information requests suggest that the DFE holds a copy responsibilities under the Freedom of Information Act. of the advice, but according to press and FOI queries to Ministers from both Departments—the Cabinet Office the Cabinet Office, it says that its guidance was, variously, and the Department for Education—have refused to not written down, or not held. Can the Minister explain answer any of my parliamentary questions about the this contradiction for me today? guidance, except to confirm that it was issued. However, this is a matter of pressing public importance about David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate which I have sought answers for nearly eight months. the hon. Lady on securing the debate. She will be aware There is evidence now in the public domain that the of the controversy about the whole aspect of freedom Secretary of State for Education and his advisers used of information requests in recent months. Does she personal e-mail accounts to discuss matters relating to agree that the matter is not only about the case she is the award of public money and the Building Schools for outlining, which is very interesting, but the whole aspect the Future programme. of the abuse of freedom of information, and its cost? Disclosure of those e-mails was refused because Ministers wrongly appeared to believe that the e-mails were not Lisa Nandy: I very much echo the hon. Gentleman’s covered by the Freedom of Information Act. The Secretary comments; this kind of affair damages us all, which is of State has since told me, at a recent hearing of the why I am seeking answers today. Education Committee, that he believed that to be the I would also like to understand how the situation case because of the specific Cabinet Office guidance could arise. That understanding is important if the that is the subject of today’s debate. commitment to transparency, which was made very I will briefly summarise the background, and say why clearly in the coalition agreement, is to have any meaning. the matter is of such pressing public importance that Why was the guidance written by the Cabinet Office in the guidance should be published without delay. In the first place, given that the Department for Education’s August and September last year, in the leaked e-mail chief freedom of information officer had already clearly obtained by The Guardian, the Secretary of State’s communicated his view? Who requested the guidance? adviser told officials he would no longer respond to When was it communicated by the Cabinet Office? Was inquiries on his official departmental e-mail address, it sent only to the Department for Education? If not, and urged them to do the same. At the time, Ministers has it now been revoked for every Department, given in the Department appeared to believe that private the extreme criticism of it by the Information e-mail addresses were not covered by the Freedom of Commissioner? In his recent ruling, he said: Information Act. “The DfE contends that the information is not held because Further e-mails were then revealed by the Financial the email in question is ‘political’. However, almost all the work of a special adviser, by definition, has a political dimension to one Times that had been leaked to them by officials in the extent or another. Equally, the Secretary of State is a political Department for Education. Those e-mails revealed that figure…There is therefore an inevitable overlap between matters personal e-mail accounts had been used by the Secretary of party policy and government policy. To accept the DfE’s of State and by his advisers in relation to Government interpretation would be to, in effect, create a blanket exemption business. Requests were made for some of the leaked for communications between ministers and special advisers. In e-mails in question but those requests were refused. The the Commissioner’s view the DfE has created an artificial distinction Secretary of State told me in January at the Education between ‘official’ information which is subject to the Act and Committee hearing that the decisions were taken clearly “political” information which is not.” on the basis of guidance issued by the Cabinet Office. Did this interpretation, or description, of a blanket That guidance remains unpublished, may or may not exemption from the Act arise directly from the guidance have been written down and has since been discredited, issued by the Cabinet Office? If so, can the Minister tell hence my keenness to shine a spotlight on that mysterious me how he, or officials in his Department, came to guidance today. It apparently contradicts earlier guidance interpret the guidance in that way? Will he tell me who given to the Secretary of State for Education by his wrote it? Was that person aware that the DFE’s chief Department’s chief freedom of information officer, stating FOI officer had already issued contradictory advice? that personal e-mails were covered by the Act. The Did the person who wrote it have any discussions with Information Commissioner also clarified that in December the Information Commissioner, or indeed the Ministry last year, but the Secretary of State confirmed to me of Justice, which holds overall responsibility for the that he had ignored both those pieces of guidance and Freedom of Information Act, before issuing it? Who preferred instead to rely on the mysterious piece of was it sent to in the DFE? Did the Minister personally guidance apparently issued by the Cabinet Office. sign it off? If not, will he tell me who did? I would like to know why the Cabinet Office is still I am seeking to understand how a situation can arise refusing to publish the guidance given the Secretary of where the Cabinet Office’s guidance explicitly contradicts State’s constant references to it, its apparent centrality that of the DFE’s own chief FOI officer and the to decisions taken and the seriousness of the allegations Information Commissioner, yet the Department is able that have arisen against the Department for Education. to choose which guidance it wishes to follow. Does that Will the Minister publish the guidance now, so that we not cause the Minister concern? Is it how the Government 133WH Freedom of Information Act14 MARCH 2012 Freedom of Information Act 134WH operate? Can Departments pick and choose different Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I apologise to policy advice and guidance depending on which they my hon. Friend for missing the beginning of her remarks— prefer to follow? Does the Minister think it is acceptable the debate started earlier than expected. Would it not be that the Government are in the farcical situation where a ludicrous situation if the Government tried to uphold the DFE is apparently relying on guidance that the the position that private e-mails are not covered by the Information Commissioner has discredited, which is Freedom of Information Act, since that would, in effect, contradictory to the guidance issued by the Department allow the Government to create a government in parallel itself, and which the Government still refuse to publish? using private e-mail accounts to evade their responsibilities Less than two weeks ago, the Information Commissioner under the Act? issued a ruling that the information withheld by the DFE amounted to departmental business and must be Lisa Nandy: Absolutely. Evidence has emerged in the disclosed. The Secretary of State is currently considering press that that is exactly what has happened in this whether to exercise his right to issue a refusal notice instance, which is why I am seeking to clear up the giving valid reasons for withholding it, as I understand. matter today. In the meantime, he still does not appear to have There is another thing that does not, so far, stand up accepted the guidance of the Information Commissioner to scrutiny.The Department for Education’s initial response and his own Department that states clearly that those to the press reports was to say that only political e-mails e-mails are covered by the FOI Act. were sent through private accounts. The Secretary of In January, I asked the Secretary of State a series of State subsequently repeated that claim to the Education questions at a hearing of the Education Committee to Committee. If the Department genuinely believed the clarify whether he or his advisers had ever used private e-mails were not governmental, why did it ever seek e-mail accounts to conceal information from civil servants advice on the applicability of the law to private e-mail or the public that related to departmental business; accounts? Can the Minister shed any light on that? Did whether he had ever directed civil servants not to answer he or his officials have any conversations with the FOI requests on specific issues; and what steps he was Department, the Secretary of State or his advisers taking to prevent the deletion of private e-mails relating about it? That is why it matters so much to so many of to Government business and deemed by the Information us on this side of the House. Not only do the e-mails Commissioner to be covered by the FOI Act. It has relate to decisions of crucial public importance to young since transpired that officials in the DFE repeatedly people and their families—not least about Building destroyed official Government records—130 e-mails, Schools for the Future—but they have created a situation according to reports by the Financial Times. Ihavethe that looks distinctly murky. That affects and discredits transcript of the Secretary of State’s appearance before us all, and must be clarified urgently. the Education Committee. I repeat that it is not clear, from the answers he gave me, whether the Secretary of State or his advisers sought to use, conceal, or delete Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): As a member of the those personal e-mails in order to evade the Act. What Education Committee, I attended the hearing. Has my is clear is that the Secretary of State says he was hon. Friend reflected on the fact that in attempting to following Cabinet Office guidance in his actions. answer, or not answer, her questions at that Committee hearing, and by evading a real answer to her questions, There is an urgency to this matter, as it is unclear the Secretary of State, I am sorry to say, seemed to find whether private e-mails relating to Government business some amusement in the whole matter? That is a very sad are still being deleted. I asked the Secretary of State thing, given the time and effort that my hon. Friend has about that at the end of January at the Select Committee put just into trying to uncover the truth. hearing, and he would not confirm whether that was or was not the case. Will the Minister please clarify whether that revised, updated guidance has been issued, and Lisa Nandy: Indeed; and also because of the significance that, in light of the Information Commissioner’s ruling, to the people that we represent throughout the country the guidance has changed? Has revised guidance gone of decisions that were made and discussed using private to every Department? If not, what is the delay? Given e-mail accounts. the clarity of the Information Commissioner’s statement, I have been seeking answers for seven months and it seems extraordinary that that would not have happened. have not been able to get any. In that time, it has been If it has not happened, does it mean that the Government alleged that Ministers repeatedly destroyed official are currently without guidance on the use of private Government correspondence and deliberately used private e-mails and the FOI Act? e-mail accounts to avoid the requirements of the Freedom Does the Minister know if the DFE has decided to of Information Act. They may still be doing so. The fight the decision notice, and if so, on what grounds? failure to answer questions about this matter makes a Perhaps the Minister cannot answer that, but can he mockery of Parliament, the Freedom of Information answer this: if the Secretary of State for Education Act and the commitment to open government. decides to fight the decision notice from the Information I realise that Governments are reluctant to share Commissioner, will the Cabinet Office defer publishing information, sometimes for understandable reasons, but new advice until the case is finalised? If so, that could I share the Government’s view that transparency is mean that the FOI Act is effectively inactive and subject crucial. In the words of the coalition agreement, they to a blanket exemption for a year. That is surely a should broken commitment, given the prominent commitment “throw open the doors of public bodies, to enable the public to to transparency in the coalition agreement. What is hold politicians and public bodies to account. We also recognise being done to ensure that this situation cannot happen that this will help to deliver better value for money in public again? spending.” 135WH Freedom of Information Act14 MARCH 2012 Freedom of Information Act 136WH

[Lisa Nandy] combined online information system on data.gov.uk, more than any other comparable transparency service If that commitment is to have any meaning, frankly, in the world. Ministers must up their game. I should be grateful if the The information published enables people to see all Minister would give a commitment today that the original Government expenditure, browsing by date, spender, guidance will be published, that in light of the Information recipient and amount. All Government contracts over Commissioner’s ruling, clear renewed guidance will be £10,000 are to be published to ensure openness and issued urgently across Government regarding the application fairness. of the FOI Act to private e-mails, and that if he cannot The whole Government accounts were published in answer all my questions, he makes a decent attempt to November 2011 and each Department has published a answer those he can, writes to me about the rest and no business plan, setting out how it will achieve its reforms, longer seeks to hide behind the much overused phrase, how much money is being spent and what it is being “longstanding convention.” spent on. Reports against these deliverables are published monthly on the No. 10 website. 4.11 pm Transparency does not just extend to central The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Government. For local authorities, there is increased Hurd): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship local accountability and transparency of councils. We for the first time, Dr McCrea. can see, down to the last £500, what is being spent in our name by our local authorities, including salaries, names, I follow convention in congratulating the hon. Member budgets and responsibilities of staff paid more than for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) not just on securing the debate, £58,200. There is detail on councillor allowances and but for the way that she presented her case. We served expenses and we can see organisational charts, pay together quite happily, I think, on the Public Bodies multiples, copies of contracts and tenders to businesses, Bill. I am not surprised that she has been pursuing this which are important to the voluntary and community matter forensically for many months, through the Education sector. Committee and this debate. I will do my best to answer the questions that I can. Lisa Nandy: Will the Minister give way? The hon. Lady will know that I cannot answer them all; in fact, I cannot answer the majority and I cannot speak Mr Hurd: The point that I am trying to make—I will for the Secretary of State for Education. I am certainly give way after doing so—is that this level of transparency not going to respond to allegations about any destruction is unprecedented and today’s debate, which challenges of information or materials, because they remain just the Government and questions their commitment to that. transparency in some ways, needs to be seen against this background. So much of the long list that I read is Lisa Nandy: I am sorry to ask the Minister to give self-evidently good and in the public interest. Why did it way so quickly. I have just handed him a list of questions not happen before? The hon. Lady and other Opposition for the Cabinet Office, to which I should be grateful for Members may have an answer, since they were in power answers. If he cannot answer them today, I should be for 13 years. grateful if he looked into them and got back to me. Lisa Nandy: The Minister has read a long, impressive Mr Hurd: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s clarification. list of things that have been published under the Freedom I was wondering what the piece of paper that was thrust of Information Act. Does he agree that it is extraordinary into my hand was. It is a long list of questions and we that guidance of such central importance to decisions will do our best. made across Government is not on that list? Will he In some ways, the hon. Lady was challenging commit to publishing it immediately? the Government on their important commitment to transparency and, because I feel proud of the Government’s Mr Hurd: I am getting to the meat of the debate, direction of travel, it is important to put this debate in which raises important issues about freedom of information context by mentioning some things that we are doing to requests and private e-mails. That is a complex new improve transparency, including in the Department for matter. Education. The Secretary of State mentioned, in evidence to the Select Committee, increased transparency about Ian Mearns: Waffle. schools performance. Information is power and we are giving people more Mr Hurd: The hon. Gentleman says it is waffle, but I power. For example, the Government are now publishing am proud, because in less than two years we have details of ministerial, special adviser and permanent achieved all that I mentioned—which is more than his secretary meetings with external organisations; details party did in 13 years in power—in giving people information of hospitality and gifts received by Ministers and special about what the state is doing in their name. I do not advisers; senior officials’salaries, and detail on Government describe it as waffle; it is hard information that is in the procurement card spend. They are also publishing public domain now. information on many other items of public interest, This debate is about the use of private e-mails and such as hospital infection rates, crime maps—which their relation to the Freedom of Information Act. We have been an enormous success with the public, with have to recognise that this complex issue has been the more than 430 million hits since their launch— and subject, as the hon. Lady says, of a recent decision by data on general practitioners’ performance. More than the Information Commissioner, published on 2 March. 7,500 data sets have so far been published through the In his decision notice, the Information Commissioner 137WH Freedom of Information Act14 MARCH 2012 Freedom of Information Act 138WH makes it clear that at the time the Department for General. We both believe, as Ministers before us have Education received the FOI request, there was no guidance believed, that advice between officials and Ministers in existence. This was a new area that had, perhaps, not should remain confidential. been anticipated. The commissioner acknowledges that the full implications of the FOI Act in relation to this Lisa Nandy: Can the Minister tell us whether that is issue may not have been well understood at the time. He written down? states in his decision notice that he “would say first of all that he acknowledges that this is a novel Mr Hurd: The hon. Lady intervenes from a sedentary issue and one which may not have been anticipated when the position. The answer to that question is that we will not Freedom of information Act was passed…Given the unique role disclose the advice or the manner in which it was played by special advisers it is not always easy to draw a clear line communicated—we would not normally disclose that, between official information held by a public authority and party and we will not do so now. political information.” The more substantive issue is what happens now, in It is clear that the Information Commissioner’s decision that the Information Commissioner has given a view notice raises important issues that the Government are and the Government must respond. The hon. Lady taking seriously and considering. asked when the Cabinet Office will publish its guidance. For reasons that I am sure hon. Members will appreciate, I have made it clear that the Government are considering a time period is set out in the FOI legislation within the Information Commissioner’s recent decision notice which the Government will consider whether to appeal and his guidance, published in December, and will or release the information. I cannot answer the hon. publish their guidance as soon as it is ready, but the Lady’s question about whether any decision has been issues are complex and require detailed consideration. taken. The Government have 28 days from the date of [Interruption.] The hon. Lady laughs, but we must get the decision notice to decide whether to appeal. If there it right: the question is new, it is complex and it was not is no appeal, the Government have a further seven days anticipated at the start—it needs to be got right. The to release the information or assert a relevant exemption. Cabinet Office is doing that work, which is well under Therefore I am sure that hon. Members will understand way. When our guidance is ready, it will be issued. that it is not appropriate for me to comment on the The debate is valid and raises important issues that decision while such consideration is under way. the Government are considering and taking extremely The hon. Lady has asked me to make public the seriously. I do not recognise what the hon. Member for advice given by the Cabinet Office to the Department Gateshead (Ian Mearns) said about the Secretary of for Education on FOI and private e-mails. She asserted State’s apparent flippancy in Committee—I read the at the start of her speech that she had not received any transcript; I was not there—but, given that in that part answers on this, but in fact she has, although it is not of the inquiry he was being interviewed under Paxman-like necessarily the answer she wants. In a written answer conditions by the hon. Member for Wigan, his replies from the Minister for the Cabinet Office, she was informed were serious and to the point. However, important that the Department will not publish any guidance on issues, which we are taking seriously, have been raised private e-mails and the Freedom of Information Act and I ask hon. Members to allow consideration to take given to the Department for Education, because: place in the appropriate way. Within the time frame set “Information relating to internal discussion and advice is not in tribunal rules, the Government will decide whether to normally disclosed.”—[Official Report, 6 February 2012; Vol. 540, appeal or to release the information originally requested, c. 63W.] in response to the Information Commissioner’s decision That has been so for a long time and we will stick to notice of 2 March. The Government are also considering that line, because the Government do not disclose what the guidance issued by the Information Commissioner is effectively internal advice. Doing so would prejudice in December on freedom of information and private the conditions under which such advice was given. That e-mails, and the Cabinet Office will issue further guidance is a long-standing convention, and it is entirely respectable to Departments in due course. for the Government to stand by it. Today’s debate has not changed my view and, I am sure, will not change the 4.22 pm view of the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. 139WH 14 MARCH 2012 Local Media 140WH

Local Media Stephen McPartland: My hon. Friend makes an important point about local newspapers in Dartford.

4.33 pm 4.37 pm Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. I am 4.46 pm grateful that the Minister is here to respond to the debate. He and I usually discuss high technology issues, On resuming— but today we will talk about low technology and local newspapers in print form. I am pleased to be able to talk Stephen McPartland: Before the Division, we were about the importance of local media to small towns and discussing what the Prime Minister said about local cities. newspapers being a great vehicle for social change, and I want to refer to a couple of campaigns that I have run Stevenage has a number of media outlets, including with local newspapers in my area. One campaign sought The Comet, the Stevenage Advertiser and Jack FM—a to bring the carnival back to Stevenage, and that had good local radio station on which I will be holding great success last year. We are currently running a a phone-in surgery on Saturday, because it has a wide campaign with a different newspaper to have a satellite impact in the local community and reaches many people. radiotherapy unit based at the Lister hospital in Stevenage. The importance of local newspapers to small towns and Patients from Stevenage who undergo radiotherapy cities lies in community cohesion. They are valuable currently have to travel nearly 4,000 miles during the assets to local communities. In my area, they report course of their treatment. We think that that is a little everything from Stevenage football club’s meteoric rise too far, and that treatment should be available somewhere from non-league football two seasons ago to league one closer. and its furthest ever placement last week against Tottenham in the fifth round of the FA cup at White Hart Lane, Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): That where it unfortunately lost, to stories about the Rainbows, issue also affects my constituents in the neighbouring the Guides, grass-roots football and other small local constituency of North East Hertfordshire. Does my charitable organisations that have no opportunity to hon. Friend agree that the local media have been extremely put forward their message elsewhere. I am pleased to be helpful in supporting that campaign and fighting to able to support local newspapers and media outlets. help cancer sufferers, who currently have a difficult I want to talk about some facts. We know that journey, to receive treatment? 33 million people in this country read a local newspaper every year. We also know that there are thousands of Stephen McPartland: My hon. Friend makes a good titles—well over 6,000—that 71% of adults read a local point; he has been a great advocate and supporter of newspaper and that 14 million more people read a the campaign and has led the way in North East local newspaper than read a national newspaper. Local Hertfordshire. As he rightly says, without the support of newspapers have a huge spread in local communities. local newspapers, the campaign would not have achieved such massive community penetration or have been mobilised Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): It is a pleasure to into a big, cross-party issue locally. The campaign is serve under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. I thank going well. my hon. Friend on obtaining this important debate. We are also running a campaign to stop the expansion Does he agree that papers such as the Redditch Advertiser of Luton airport because, although Luton would get and the Redditch Standard, which are local free sheets all the jobs, Stevenage and particularly North East and the only newspapers that we have in Redditch, are Hertfordshire would get all the aircraft noise. If there vital to local people, especially the elderly who would are to be quieter aircraft, we are keen for them to turn otherwise be cut off from local news? up, and we would be interested in getting the truth about those figures. Local newspapers are a great vehicle Stephen McPartland: My hon. Friend makes an for change and something that I support. important point about the valuable titles in Redditch. Local newspapers face great competition from new Local newspapers reach some of the most vulnerable media, although many of them are embracing that people in our communities and push forward a positive competition and in many ways turning themselves into message on everything: Government news, local authority embryonic versions of the local multi-media companies news, planning permissions, charitable events and what that the Minister and I support so well. Local newspapers is going on in the local community. The Prime Minister are trying hard to move forward by doing a lot of work said that on the internet, accessing a variety of other platforms “local papers are hugely important in helping to build a bigger, and starting to move into radio and so on. However, stronger society. There is a massive gap between the state on the they face a great deal of competition, and although one hand, and the individual on the other, and local papers help they are tackling that head-on, there is concern over the fill the space in between, galvanising readers into action.” behaviour of some local authorities. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s views on Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): Does my hon. whether local authorities should spend taxpayers’ money Friend agree that local media are vital to small towns on advertising in local newspapers, as opposed to producing such as Dartford and Stevenage, because they are often propaganda that a large number of local residents are too large to have parish magazines dedicated to their not particularly interested in reading, so it quickly ends area, but too small to have, for example, regional television up in the bin. For example, the Stevenage Chronicle is covering just their area? not particularly well supported. The problem with such 141WH Local Media14 MARCH 2012 Local Media 142WH propaganda is that taxpayers have no interest in it, and concerned about the consultation’s adverse effects. I given the choice they would scrap it right away rather believe that most laws are made with the best of intentions than see other services reduced. The local media market across all parties and all Governments, but there is is distorted because local newspapers come under severe always the law of unintended consequences. My concern financial pressure when local authorities—whether county today is that the unintended consequences will simply or district authorities—produce their own material. be that more and more local newspapers end up going What are the Minister’s thoughts about the current out of business. That will continue the removal of a Department for Transport consultation on removing vital community resource from our local communities. the mandatory advertisement of things such as road I have tried to show, in the few minutes of my speech, closures and planning applications in local newspapers? how effective those local newspapers have been as a It is very important that that is reviewed. I am interested vehicle for change. As I mentioned, the Prime Minster in his views, simply because I think that such a move supports local newspapers. We have to put our money will undermine further the financial viability of local where our mouth is on some occasions and actually newspapers. invest in local newspapers.

Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): My hon. Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): My hon. Friend Friend raises an extremely important point. Just this is making a superb point regarding local newspapers. In morning, the editor of the Ipswich Star, Nigel Pickover— my constituency, we have the Buxton Advertiser and the there is also the Felixstowe Star—raised that point with Glossop Chronicle. People always read the notices in the me. I am sure that my hon. Friend agrees with me that back. There is also local radio. My local station, High local papers are very important for democracy and Peak Radio, is widely listened to and, as my hon. Friend holding representatives to account and for conducting says, gets the message out better than many of the free campaigns, which he has mentioned. Taking away some sheets produced by local authorities. of their regular revenue puts more papers at risk. Stephen McPartland: I agree that radio is a very Stephen McPartland: My hon. Friend makes a very effective medium. As I mentioned, I will be doing a important point much more eloquently than I managed radio phone-in surgery on Saturday morning with my to. She got to the heart of the issue, which is that that local radio station, Jack FM, to get that great penetration revenue will be taken away from local newspapers and into my local community. instead of our having the disinfectant of transparency and local communities being able to understand what is going on, much of that information will be hidden away Andrew Bingham: I thank my hon. Friend for giving on local authority websites and will not get the attention way again; he is being very generous. Not long after I that it so richly deserves. was elected to the House, my local radio station, High This is very important. It comes down to a simple Peak Radio, came down and broadcast from the Lobby point. I accept that we are not in the business of of the House for a morning. That went down extremely subsidising local newspapers and that taxpayers should well and increased the perception and knowledge of not pay for advertising in that sense. However, we Parliament throughout the constituency. I would should not be in the business of encouraging local recommend that to any colleague. authorities to compete against newspapers by taking that advertising revenue away from those newspapers Stephen McPartland: I thank my hon. Friend for and putting things on their own websites, because as making an excellent point, which I will make to the hon. Members know, very little of those savings will go producer of Jack FM on Saturday morning before we to front-line services. Local authorities will probably go on air. spend the money on developing a newer and better local The key points for me are clear. We do not want to authority website or newer and better local authority distort the media market. The number of hon. Members propaganda. The local community does not want that. who have intervened on me and are present for the It wants access to transparent information. The key debate shows the interest in it. My hon. Friend the message is that if public funds are used, the money Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) is keen to speak, should be spent on advertising in local newspapers, not so I will finish my speech shortly. The reason why I on simply producing propaganda. wanted the debate was simply that we have to understand I would be interested in the Minister’s views on the the law of unintended consequences. I am very concerned consultation that I referred to and the impact that the that local authorities are using taxpayer funds— proposal would have. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I am very Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) lucky in my part of the world—Colne Valley. The (Con): Would it not be necessary to prove that the Huddersfield Daily Examiner is a fantastic daily newspaper advertising that the taxpayer was paying for was actually six days a week, running community and business awards, being read by the taxpayer and was valued by the which are very well followed. I have to mention Barry taxpayer? Gibson’s coverage of the local development framework controversy on our patch. He was in the council chamber Stephen McPartland: That is a very good point. Many for 10 hours and was tweeting. The newspaper also led people will wonder how many residents read the traffic an important community campaign to get people signed planning information on road closures in the back of a up to the Anthony Nolan Trust bone marrow register local newspaper. That is a key issue and no doubt the after one of its journalists died of leukaemia. I agree reason why the consultation is taking place, but I am with my hon. Friend about the importance of councils 143WH Local Media14 MARCH 2012 Local Media 144WH

[Jason McCartney] chamber of a night was the local journalist who reported the council’s proceedings to the wider public. Had he using their local newspapers for advertising. Does he not been there, who would have known what was decided agree that at a time when money is tight, that can also on that evening? be very cost-effective? Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The hon. Stephen McPartland: My hon. Friend makes an excellent Gentleman rightly emphasises the importance of local point. I have experience of The Huddersfield Daily media. In my city, the Belfast Telegraph plays a very Examiner, as my wife went to university in Huddersfield important role in the way that he has outlined. Will he and I have read the newspaper on one or two occasions. accept that one of the challenges in terms of costs is I do not know whether my hon. Friend has contributed that many local newspapers are moving their printing many articles to it in the past, but it is an excellent works out of local towns and cities to somewhere else, newspaper. We come back to the point that local newspapers so that they can do it more cheaply? That is happening are fantastic vehicles for social change, and we need to with the Belfast Telegraph now. It is obviously a concern be very careful about ensuring that they have the ability that these local institutions, which have been going for to campaign. On that point, I shall finish my speech, so 100 years and more, are now moving their work forces that other hon. Members have a chance to speak. out of the cities that they serve. 4.56 pm John Stevenson: I completely concur. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak under your chairmanship, We must remember that it is not just politicians Dr McCrea. First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the whom local media hold to account. It is local business Member for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) on initiating men, the police, the NHS and other organisations, the debate. Its importance is shown by the number of including schools and colleges. hon. Members present. It could have been a longer debate had we had more time. It raises an issue that is Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I commend extremely relevant to such localities as Stevenage, Carlisle those who arranged the debate, which is on a subject of and many other parts of the country—towns and small cross-party concern. The hon. Gentleman is making a cities up and down the United Kingdom. very important point about investigative journalism. Does he agree that under the pressures that local media— The national media are clearly vibrant and diverse. local papers in particular—face, especially the pressure There are national newspapers, appealing to different of profitability or its loss, it is often the important sections of society; there is a plethora of TV channels investigative journalism that is hollowed out and lost? and a large number of radio stations, both independent That is a real loss to local democracy. Happily, that is and through the BBC; and now we have the wonderful not yet the case for the Oxford Mail and the Oxford world of the blogosphere. Times and the family of papers that serves my constituency On the face of it, local media are also still quite and that of the Minister to an excellent standard, but it vibrant. There are 1,200 regional and local newspapers. is a worry. Does he agree? That is the most popular print medium; 33 million people read a local newspaper every week. Local media John Stevenson: I could not agree more. The danger is employ about 30,000 people and about 10,000 journalists. that local papers just start to reproduce the press releases Local radio is also quite vibrant. Between independent that everyone sends out rather than challenging what radio and the BBC, it covers most parts of the country. has been said. What can the Government do? Obviously, In some cases, there is also local television. they should encourage and support a diverse local However, there are clearly increasing financial difficulties media industry, and I am sure that they will. We should for local media. That is particularly the case for local restrict councils’ ability to issue free newspapers, which newspapers, which have experienced a triple whammy. is often just political opportunism. We also need to They have lost revenue from adverts relating to housing, ensure that statutory notices remain compulsory, and car sales and, probably most importantly, job vacancies. that it remains compulsory for them to be produced in They also now have competition from the internet, the local media. Undoubtedly, that helps local newspapers which makes it far more difficult for them to be financially financially and ensures that local people know where to viable. Even radio is experiencing difficulties. It has less go if they want to see notices about certain things, such advertising revenue, and the BBC, as we know, has as planning applications. made severe cuts in local radio output in recent times. We must ensure that the BBC is also properly financed I want to highlight what I see as the two most so that we have high quality local media. Where possible, important aspects of local media. My hon. Friend the I should like to see local TV stations reporting local Member for Stevenage touched on the first one—the news rather than national and regional news. If we can basic local news that is provided, information on events, ensure that we have a vibrant local media, it will enhance simple local adverts, information on births, marriages our democracy. and deaths—everything to do with normal everyday life. Quite often, they also cover the bigger stories, such as the success or otherwise of football clubs—I just 5.1 pm note that Carlisle is above Stevenage at present in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, division 1. Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): It is a Most importantly, local media hold institutions and pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dr McCrea. individuals to account. I can give the best example of I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage all. When I was a councillor, there were 52 of us, but (Stephen McPartland) on securing this important debate. probably the most important person in the council The subject of local media is one that is dear to all hon. 145WH Local Media14 MARCH 2012 Local Media 146WH

Members’ hearts. My hon. Friend the Member for let me now speak on behalf of the Department for Carlisle (John Stevenson) mentioned the cuts to BBC Transport. Local councils spend around £20 million a local radio, as part of the BBC’s plan to deliver quality year on advertising traffic regulation orders in local first. A debate on that subject in Westminster Hall newspapers. I should add the caveat that local newspaper attracted some 50 hon. Members. We also had a debate groups, such as the Newspaper Society, do not necessarily in the main Chamber. I was pleased that the BBC Trust agree that that is the sum that is spent. I am sure that asked the BBC to think again about the proposals for everyone in the House agrees with the efficient use of local radio. We will all have experienced the ways in council tax payers’ money. Saving money by reducing which it plays an important role in our communities. advertising costs would be a good thing. My hon. Local newspapers play a vital role in supporting local Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), democracy. All of us know and love our local newspapers, who is a member of the Culture, Media and Sport no matter how badly they behave towards us, because Committee, might say that the money would be better we recognise their constitutional importance. I was spent on libraries—I was giving evidence to her on hoping to make the point that only Conservative Members libraries yesterday.Incidentally, I was pleased that Desmond had turned up to the debate today and to send a signal Clarke, to whom I referred yesterday, is now sending my to all local newspapers that they should therefore skew hon. Friend regular e-mails, updating her on library their editorial policies in that fashion. It grieves me, policy, but I digress. therefore, to have to acknowledge the presence of the A consultation was issued at the end of January 2012 right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) who is by the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. displaying the customary diligence for which he is well Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker). It has known, thus skewering my opportunity to make that already generated 100 letters from Members. I am pleased particular point. that those letters went to the Department for Transport We take local newspapers seriously. One of the first and not to the Department for Culture, Media and things that the Government did after the election was to Sport. I am also pleased to say that my hon. Friend will deregulate cross-media ownership rules at the local level be meeting the Newspaper Society next week to discuss to give individual local newspapers and local newspaper the issues. Clearly, there is a balance to be struck in groups the opportunity to own radio stations and vice achieving value for money for the council tax payer, but versa. It was recognised by the Government that consumers I am pleased that the Department for Transport has use a variety of platforms, be it the local newspaper, the recognised, through the consultation process, the importance radio or the internet. By allowing these different platforms of statutory notices to a free and thriving local newspaper to unite, there is more opportunity to create a critical press. Obviously, I cannot prejudge the outcome of that mass to ensure that newspapers can be well financed in consultation, but I know that hon. Members will be the future. pleased that many of their colleagues have made There is no doubt that newspapers will have to adapt representations on behalf of their local newspapers to to a changing world of technology. As my hon. Friend the Department for Transport and that the Department the Member for Carlisle pointed out, it has been a triple is actively engaged in consultation. whammy; I sometimes refer to it as a perfect storm. I have covered both the Government’s action on the What has hit newspapers the hardest is the move of deregulation of cross-media ownership and our action classified advertising to the internet. Such advertising to reduce the impact of council newspapers on local was a source of guaranteed revenue for them. That was newspapers, and I have acknowledged the importance the most important first move that we made. of statutory notices to local newspapers. Let me turn to I am also pleased to say that a second move, which a number of other issues that will provide opportunities was made by the Department for Communities and for local media. Local Government, was to consult urgently on council news sheets. That consultation took place in 2010, and a My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle referred to new publicity code was issued on 31 March 2011, which local television; he hoped that it would start to cover makes it clear that councils have to think very carefully genuinely local news rather than regional and national about how they use council tax payers’ money to fund news. The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, what is known colloquially as propaganda on the rates. Media and Sport shares that view; he has a vision to Those council free sheets should now be published implement local television, which he feels is a media quarterly and be accountable to local council tax payers. platform that has been neglected in this country. We I am pleased to say that many local councils have now often cite America as a country where there is a plethora taken the view that they should publish their free sheets of local television news stations but many of our European within their local newspapers. Therefore, as well as counterparts also have very local television stations, so limiting the amount of money they spend on those there is no reason why we cannot have a thriving and information documents, they are also ensuring that the effective local television sector, despite the small size of money effectively gets channelled through the local this island compared with, say, the US. newspaper by being part of the local newspaper. In the To the end of promoting local television, Ofcom has House, we have the opportunity to publish information conducted extensive consultation. Spectrum has been about our activities. I hope that all hon. Members will identified that will allow local television to broadcast. think carefully about using their local newspapers to The most effective sites for a local television station to that end. get up and running in the short to medium term have The second issue raised by my hon. Friend the Member been identified. A licensing process is under way, and for Stevenage was the current consultation on traffic money has been secured through a partnership with the regulation. Having already spoken on behalf of the BBC to secure the establishment of local television Department for Communities and Local Government, stations and to guarantee the purchase of BBC content. 147WH Local Media14 MARCH 2012 Local Media 148WH

Mr Smith: As there is only so much advertising local flavour through local television. We do not anticipate revenue out there, how far does the Minister see that that there will be an impact on local newspapers from there is a danger that the growth of local TV will put local television, and indeed we hope that local television more pressure on the resources, income and profitability will support not only local news in general but local of local newspapers and therefore put more of them at newspapers specifically. risk? Community radio continues to thrive in the UK; I always credit the last Government with supporting it. Mr Vaizey: One of the reasons why we wanted to take Despite the tough spending round, we secured continued forward local television in partnership with the BBC is financial support for community radio. that we recognise that it could potentially take a while I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage for some local stations to attract the element of advertising for securing the debate. He opened it by referring to they need. It is important to stress that although we Stevenage’s successful run in the cup and their sad would not refer to local television stations as a shoe-string defeat at White Hart Lane. When I became a Member operation, it will be a pared-down operation; local of Parliament, my local football team—Didcot Town FC television stations will not have the kind of bells and —actually won at White Hart Lane, although they were whistles that right hon. and hon. Members may be used not actually playing Spurs at the time. They won the FA to when they go into a television studio in Millbank. We Vase, were promoted and then relegated. However my estimate that the cost of running a local television hon. Friend is quite right to draw attention to the station will be about £600,000 a year, so we are confident importance of local newspapers, and I hope that I have that advertising can support local television in the short reassured him that the Government are not only listening to medium term. when there is a perceived threat to local newspapers but It is important to stress that many local newspaper providing important opportunities for local newspapers groups are looking at partnering with local television to thrive and grow in a complicated 21st-century technology groups to create a local multi-media network. Hopefully landscape. those partnerships will emerge. However, it is also possible Question put and agreed to. that some quasi-national advertising will support local television; for example, a large supermarket group could 5.12 pm still push out a national advertising campaign with a Sitting adjourned. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements14 MARCH 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

directors’ remuneration reports so that the proposals Written Ministerial can be scrutinised as a whole. Together, these measures will create a more robust framework within which executive Statements pay is set, agreed and reported on. I am placing a copy of the consultation document in the Libraries of both Houses. Wednesday 14 March 2012

TREASURY BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Tax and Customs Co-operation Programme Executive Pay (Consultation on Enhanced Shareholder Voting Rights) The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith): I wish to inform the House that the Government have opted in to the proposal for a regulation of the The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and European Parliament and of the Council establishing Skills (Vince Cable): On 23 January, I announced a an action programme for customs and taxation in the package of measures to address failings in the corporate European Union for the period 2014-2020 (known as governance framework for executive remuneration. This FISCUS). includes: This proposal establishes a tax and customs co-operation Greater transparency in directors’ remuneration reports; programme to support the effective functioning of the Empowering shareholders and promoting shareholder internal market and operation of customs procedures, engagement through enhanced voting rights; and to improve the functioning of taxation systems Increasing the diversity of boards and remuneration committees; within the EU by increasing co-operation between member Encouraging employees to be more engaged by exercising states. The programme aims to contribute to the Europe their right to information and consultation arrangements; 2020 strategy for smart, sustainable and inclusive growth, Working with investors and business to promote best practice by strengthening the functioning of the single market on pay-setting. and EU customs union. It also has the objective of These measures will be taken forward through a driving technical progress and innovation in national combination of primary and secondary legislation, and tax administrations with the aim of developing e-tax business-led good practice. My objective is to enable administrations and contributing to the establishment shareholders to promote a stronger, clearer link between of a digital single market. pay and performance in order to prevent rewards for The UK has benefited from participation in predecessor mediocrity or failure, while still allowing for exceptional programmes, in particular, through involvement in performance to be rewarded. multilateral controls which can assist with the detection of tax fraud and through using customs 2013 activities Enhanced voting rights for shareholders will require to reduce administrative burdens for compliant businesses. primary legislation and, subject to parliamentary time, The programmes also fund the maintenance and we aim to include this in the next legislative Session. development of EU communication and information Today I am publishing a consultation document that exchange systems. This is an area where spend on provides more detail on a model which will give shareholders research and development can represent good EU added- greater influence on the issue of executive remuneration. value by providing economies of scale in the development The main components of this are: of cross-EU networks. An annual binding vote on future remuneration policy; Increasing the level of support required on votes on future remuneration policy; DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER An annual advisory vote on how remuneration policy has been implemented in the previous year; A binding vote on exit payments over one year’s salary. Diamond Jubilee Civic Honours Competition The purpose of the consultation is to seek evidence on the impact, costs, benefits and likely behavioural The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Iam effects of the proposals. I want to ensure that these pleased to announce that Her Majesty the Queen has measures promote effective dialogue between companies commanded that city status be granted to Chelmsford, and their shareholders. Perth and St Asaph; and lord mayoralty to Armagh to In developing this consultation document, we have mark her diamond jubilee. engaged with investors, non-executive directors, company Although the granting of these honours remains a secretaries, HR directors, lawyers and other experts. We rare mark of distinction, the Queen accepted the will continue to do this during the consultation period Government’s recommendation to grant these honours and to build our evidence base. Today I have also to more than one place to commemorate her diamond published the Regulatory Policy Committee’s verdict on jubilee and in recognition of the high quality of applications our consultation stage impact assessment. received. City status and lord mayoralty, which confer Following this consultation I hope to confirm the no additional powers or functions on the successful precise measures we will take forward in primary legislation applicants, will be granted by Letters Patent, which will early this summer. At the same time, I plan to publish now be prepared for presentation to Armagh, Chelmsford, draft regulations which will determine the content of Perth and St Asaph in due course. 21WS Written Ministerial Statements14 MARCH 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

The unsuccessful applicants will, of course, be high levels of complex needs because of their earlier disappointed not to have been honoured on this occasion. experiences of abuse and neglect. We believe that there The standard of application was very high, and those are many more people willing to give a child a stable, who missed out should not be downhearted. I hope the loving home through adoption than those who complete competition has given the residents of all of the places the assessment journey at present. So we want to reform which applied a sense of civic pride, of collective ownership an assessment process which many prospective adopters and of community spirit. Across the United Kingdom, find unresponsive, intrusive and lengthy—it can take as I have been impressed by the pride and passion which long as two years to complete. people have shown in putting their nominations forward. With the help of an expert working group of local I offer my congratulations to Armagh, Chelmsford, authorities, voluntary adoption agencies and adoptive Perth and St Asaph, who have been granted these rare parents we have developed a set of proposals for the honours from a field of exceptional entrants. reform of the recruitment, training and assessment process. The action plan gives strong support to a new six-month approval process and assessment agreement and sets out our intention to consult on the necessary EDUCATION regulatory changes. And it welcomes the concept of a national gateway to adoption—a national first point of Adoption Action Plan contact for the adoption system. We will hold local authorities more sharply to account for the speed of their adoption processes through an The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): adoption scorecard linked to a performance threshold I am publishing today “An Action Plan for Adoption: and statutory intervention regime. Delay in the adoption Tackling Delay”. It explains the changes the Government system is not universal. Some local authorities already will be making to speed up the adoption system in ensure that all their children who need adoption are England. This is the first part of a radical wider programme placed with families in a timely fashion. Some adopters of reform to improve the lives of all children who enter speak of receiving an efficient, professional and supportive local authority care. service. Building on the other changes we are making to Adoption gives vulnerable children the greatest possible the system, the new scorecard and intervention regime stability and security, in a permanent loving family and will make good practice more widespread. it can bring great joy and reward to adoptive parents. The action plan contains the most urgent changes we But the number of children adopted from care has been need to make to the adoption system, as part of our decreasing in recent years. Just 3,050 children found broader work to transform outcomes for children in new homes through adoption last year, the lowest number care. My Department will bring forward a further set of since 2001. Many of the children who are adopted are proposals on other changes to the adoption system and forced to wait far too long. The average time between a wider reform to services for children in care in the child entering care and moving in with their adoptive summer. family is one year and nine months. If a child enters Copies of “An Action Plan for Adoption: Tacking care at the age of two and a half, on average they will be Delay” have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses. nearly five by the time they move in with their family. Delay can cause lasting harm to the ability of babies and children to make secure attachments to their caregivers FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE and increases the likelihood that they will develop emotional and behavioural difficulties. And as children grow older in care, waiting for an adoptive family, it is less likely Westminster Foundation for Democracy they will be adopted at all. The action plan sets out a range of proposals to speed up the process for children; to overhaul the service The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth for prospective adopters; and to strengthen local Affairs (Mr William Hague): I wish to inform the accountability for the timeliness of adoption services. House of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s plans Last week the Prime Minister announced measures to for continuing support to the Westminster Foundation speed up the process for children. We will seek an early for Democracy (WFD). I am also able to inform the opportunity to introduce new legislation that will prevent House that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State local authorities from delaying an adoption by searching for International Development has also agreed to provide for a perfect match for a child, particularly one based additional funding to WFD. on the child’s ethnicity. We will also change the regulatory The FCO will provide WFD with funding of £3.5 million framework to make it easier for children to be fostered for 2012-13 and plans to provide them with similar by approved prospective adopters, while courts consider sums for 2013-14 and 2014-15, dependent on future the case for adoption. Finally, if a match has not been performance across all aspects of their work. The found locally within three months of a child being Department for International Development (DFID) recommended for adoption, local authorities will have will provide WFD with an accountable grant of £6 million to refer them to the national adoption register. over the next three years (2012-13 and 2014-15), which One of the reasons for delay in the adoption system is is the first time DFID has provided funding to WFD in a mismatch between children in need of adoption and this way. the families approved to adopt them. We need to recruit WFD delivers an important service in its work to a greater number and wider range of prospective adopters, strengthen Parliaments and provide assistance to political for the children who are waiting, many of whom have parties to support democracy across, the world. The 23WS Written Ministerial Statements14 MARCH 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS promotion of multi-party democracy, good governance, Our decision to accept that we continue to be bound transparency and accountability helps to support the by an underlying measure where it has been repealed UK Government’s priorities and the UK national interest. and replaced has a direct read across to the interpretation The joint support of our two Departments will help of article 4a of the title V opt-in protocol. Our view is WFD to become a more efficient, effective, and evidence- that a broad interpretation of article 4a is the correct based organisation and to achieve greater impact with one and that repeal and replace measures should be its important work. considered to be a type of amending measure for the purposes of article 4a. In practical terms, if we accept that the UK continues to be bound by the underlying measure where we do not participate in the new ‘repeal HOME DEPARTMENT and replace’ measure, we believe that we must also accept that, in such cases, the UK would cease to be bound by the underlying measure where it was deemed to be ‘inoperable’. European Union Justice and Home Affairs Measures

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Hate Crime (Government Action Plan) Home Department (James Brokenshire): We believe that European Union measures that impose justice and home affairs (JHA) obligations only apply to the UK if we The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): Today, choose to opt in to them. Since the entry into force of we are publishing “Challenge it, Report it, Stop it”—the the Lisbon treaty, there have been a number of JHA Government’s plan for tackling hate crime. proposals that repeal measures that we are currently Hate crime—crime which is motivated by hostility to bound by, and replace them with new ones. We have not the victim’s personal characteristics, such as disability, opted in to all of the replacement proposals and there gender-identity, race, religion or sexual orientation—can has been a question as to whether the measures that we have devastating consequences for victims, their families currently do take part in (the “underlying measures”) and communities. It is hugely under-reported, as many would still bind us once the replacement has entered victims are reluctant to come forward for fear of attracting into force. further abuse or because they do not believe that the The policy we inherited from the previous Government authorities will take them seriously. was that the UK was not bound by an underlying This is an issue the Government take very seriously, measure when we did not opt in to a measure repealing as demonstrated by our coalition commitment to improve and replacing that underlying measure. Following a the recording of such crimes. review of this policy, the position of the Government is that: We have a responsibility to reduce the incidence of hate crime and to protect victims. However, getting the the UK considers itself bound by an underlying measure response to hate crime right depends on deep local when we do not opt in to a knowledge of victims, offenders and communities, so new measure that repeals and replaces it; and the lead must come from professionals at the front line, article 4a of the title V opt-in protocol (protocol 21 of the working with the voluntary sector and communities to treaty on the functioning of the European Union) should be respond to local issues and priorities. interpreted as applying not only to amending measures but also to repeal and replace measures. The Government have a vital role to play in setting Our position has been reinforced by the fact that the the direction at national level, and supporting those Commission has started to introduce express wording locally led efforts, with a clear, consistent message on in repeal and replace measures which makes it clear that the importance of tackling hate crime and protecting the underlying measures will continue to bind us if we victims and communities. That role includes making do not opt in. It is highly likely that the Commission more and better national-level data available, so that we will in future routinely insert such language into new have a better understanding of where hate crime is measures. happening and why; encouraging new ideas and highlighting examples of good practice, so that local professionals We acknowledge that this new policy carries a small can see what has worked in other areas; and, where risk of the UK being bound by arrangements which no necessary, giving victims of hate crime more protection longer operate in relation to the EU as a whole but under the law. continue to apply as between the UK and Denmark (and sometimes Ireland). This would happen when only “Challenge it, Report it, Stop it” is our blueprint for the UK and Denmark (and sometimes Ireland) remain the remainder of this Parliament. It brings together bound by an underlying measure following a “repeal activity by a wide range of Government Departments— and replace” proposal. However, we already accept this working with local agencies and voluntary sector position in relation to amending measures as a consequence organisations, as well as with our independent advisory of article 4a of the title V opt-in protocol. Article 4a of group on hate crime—to meet three key objectives: the title V opt-in protocol provides that the UK remains To prevent hate crime—by challenging the attitudes that bound by an underlying measure where a new measure underpin it, and intervening early to prevent it escalating; amends it unless To increase reporting and access to support—by building “the non participation of the UK and Ireland in the amended victim confidence and supporting local partnerships; and version of an existing measure makes the application of that To improve the operational response to hate crimes—by better measure inoperable for other Member States of the Union...” identifying and managing cases, and dealing effectively with In such cases, the measure would cease to apply to the UK. offenders. 25WS Written Ministerial Statements14 MARCH 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS

Hate crime is also a global issue and our responsibility Nations, the European Union and the Organisation for to share our experience, ideas and good practice should Security and Co-operation in Europe. also extend to partners overseas. We will therefore continue to push for action on hate crime at international level, A copy of the action plan will be placed in the through a range of organisations, including the United Library of the House 235W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 236W

(2) what species of trees were replanted by Forestry Written Answers to Commission England on felled areas on the public forest estate in the latest year for which figures are Questions available. [98998] Mr Paice: Information on the area of land that is Wednesday 14 March 2012 clearfelled each year is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The following table lists the area of each species planted on the public forest estate during the 2010-11 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS planting season:

Arable Farming: Research Species Area (hectares)

Scots pine 103.5 Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Douglas fir 101.0 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is Birch (downy/silver) 5.6 taking to promote research and development in applied Sweet chestnut 5.7 arable research in (a) the UK and (b) in collaboration Oak (robur/petraea) 21.9 with other EU member states. [99786] Pedunculate/common oak 0.3 Mr Paice: The UK Cross-Government Food Research Ash 5.7 and Innovation Strategy sets out the Government’s Norway spruce 41.8 plans for improving the contribution of science and Hornbeam 0.2 innovation to tackling the challenges facing global food Norway maple 5.0 production and ensure translation of science to practical Western hemlock 0.4 use. Industry, Government, academia and other public European larch 2.4 funders are working together to implement the strategy Sitka spruce 808.7 through the Food Research Partnership. Mixed broadleaves 113.3 The Global Food Security programme and the Hazel 4.0 Technology Strategy Board (TSB) led Sustainable Agri- Maritime pine 9.1 Food Innovation Platform (SAF IP) are two initiatives Common alder 0.8 providing a line of sight between research and end use. Other eucalyptus 0.3 DEFRA is contributing £30 million of funding to the Wild cherry/gean 3.4 SAF IP, which is providing a total of up to £90 million Mixed conifers 36.8 for collaborative research with industry. Alder 0.9 At the European level, DEFRA supports agricultural Noble fir 2.3 research collaboratively with other member states through Beech 3.7 the Framework programme (FP7) and the Joint programme Sycamore 4.0 initiative and is providing funding for a number of Italian alder 3.1 ERAnet projects relevant to agricultural production. Hybrid larch 23.9 More specifically, DEFRA funds strategic applied Sessile oak 4.1 research in on crop genetic improvement, crop protection Western red cedar 6.1 and biodiversity to develop sustainable integrated Other conifers 1.4 approaches and underpin private sector investment and Grand fir 1.8 translational research. The entire public forest estate has been independently Eggs: Imports certified for sustainable forest management, which means that the clearfelling and restocking practices have been independently audited. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will outline her Department’s policy in relation to the importation Gangmasters Licensing Authority of eggs produced from illegal battery farms. [99779] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: My written statement of 6 December 2011, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects Official Report, column 16WS, sets out the UK’s to make an announcement on the future of the enforcement strategy in relation to the importation of Gangmasters Licensing Authority. [99780] eggs from other member states. Mr Paice: I refer the hon. Member to my reply of Forests 5 March 2012, Official Report, column 509W, which confirmed that the Red Tape Challenge Ministerial Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for Star Chamber process has endorsed the need for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what area of Gangmasters Licensing Authority to enforce protections forest on the public forest estate managed by the for vulnerable workers, subject to reducing burdens on Forestry Commission England is clearfelled each year; the compliant. We will make further announcements on [98997] this in due course. 237W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 238W

Livestock: Production CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Food Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will make Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for an assessment of trends in levels of livestock production Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what proportion in each of the last five years. [99885] of food procured by his Department (a) meets the Government Buying Standards for Food and Catering Mr Paice: The following tables show the value and and (b) is from British sources. [99811] volume of UK livestock production between 2006 and 2010. These are the latest years for which figures are John Penrose: I refer the hon. Member to the answer available, and the data are sourced from the Agriculture I gave him on 10 January 2012, Official Report, in the UK publication produced by DEFRA: column 31W. Value of production (£ million) Regulation Percentage change 2006 to Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2010 Olympics, Media and Sport how many regulations his Department repealed between 1 June 2011 and 31 January Beef and veal 1593 1668 2095 2130 2221 +39 2012; and if he will estimate the potential savings in Pigmeat 678 733 867 972 981 +45 each case. [98276] Mutton and 712 638 823 976 979 +38 Lamb John Penrose: Between 1 June 2011 and 21 January 2012, Poultrymeat 1233 1249 1578 1590 1799 +46 the Department has repealed: Eggs 362 410 520 531 561 +55 (i) A number of provisions of the Communications Act 2003, Milk 2497 2823 3447 3124 3325 +33 the Media Ownership (Local Radio and Appointed News Provider) Volume of production (thousand tonnes unless otherwise stated) Order 2003, and the Communications (Isle of Man) Order 2003, to deregulate the provisions which govern the ownership of local Percentage newspapers, radio and television licences. An impact assessment change 2006 to was conducted, which stated that it is difficult to quantify the 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2010 monetised benefits of deregulation in this case. Further information can be found at: Beef and veal 852 888 866 823 898 +5 http://www.ialibrary.bis.gov.uk/uploaded/Annex%20B% Pigmeat 667 707 706 681 712 +7 20Cross%20Media%20Ownership%20Impact%20Assessment% Mutton and 334 329 332 313 287 -14 20Final%2016%20Nov%2010.pdf Lamb (ii) A provision requiring notice to be served in relation to Poultrymeat 1511 1464 1462 1457 1573 +4 transport and other works under the Transport and Works Eggs (million 852 831 867 869 950 +11 (Applications and Objections Procedure) (England and Wales) dozen) Rules 2006, which is expected to have marginal savings. Milk (million 13711 13442 13145 13004 13331 -3 In addition to these repeals, we are introducing litres) deregulatory measures which will benefit business and create savings, including the Adjustment to Gambling The percentage increase in the value of production is Operating Fees, Amendments to Schedule 6 of the greater than that for volume of production as a result of Gambling Act and Gambling Act 2005: Category B3 increased prices in livestock commodities over the period. Gaming Machine. The overall savings from these measures Schmallenberg Virus stands at around £9 million. Also, the Department has played a central role in the Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Red Tape Challenge, leading the Hospitality Food and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Drink theme in partnership with other Departments. her Department has made of the potential threat of the We will cut red tape in 62 of the 102 regulations which Schmallenberg virus to cattle and sheep; and what steps were looked at as part of this theme; 12 will be abolished, her Department is taking to prevent the spread of the with a further 50 to be merged or simplified. Further virus amongst livestock. [99425] information can be found at: http://www.redtapechallenge.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/themehome/ Mr Paice: The reports of farms affected with hospitality-food-and-drink/ Schmallenberg virus in England are an indication of the geographic spread of infection which took place during the summer and autumn of 2011. All the counties TRANSPORT where disease has been reported are within the at-risk regions for midge incursion from continental Europe. Aviation We will therefore continue to monitor cases across Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport the UK and test for suspect disease so we can determine (1) how many scheduled passenger air routes between what the spread of disease was during that time. Scotland and (a) Brazil, (b) China, (c) India, (d) Japan, The disease is not notifiable and as such, movement (e) Russia and (f) Singapore have been established and restrictions are not being applied to affected premises. operated as a consequence of UK Government (i) bilateral DEFRA is funding research into finding out more international agreements, (ii) amendments, (iii) memoranda about this virus that will help in understanding how of understandings and (iv) records of discussions since best it can be managed. 1982 by year; [99475] 239W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 240W

(2) how many scheduled passenger air routes between (f) Singapore—no restriction on UK-Singapore routes since London and (a) Brazil, (b) China, (c) India, (d) Japan, 2005 with no restriction on the number of passenger services per (e) Russia and (f) Singapore have been established and week allowed. operated as a consequence of UK Government (i) bilateral Information on the number of passengers travelling international agreements, (ii) amendments, (iii) memoranda between airports in the UK and the six countries referred of understanding and (iv) records of discussions since to is available from the Civil Aviation (CAA) website 1982 by year; [99570] (see Airport Statistics, Table 12.1, at: (3) how many slots per week were agreed between www.caa.co.uk/airportstatistics the UK Government and the Russian Federation Information on the number of scheduled air services government for passenger air services between (a) London, actually operated between airports in the UK and the (b) Manchester, (c) Liverpool, (d) Birmingham, (e) six countries referred to is not collected centrally but Edinburgh, (f) Glasgow, (g) Prestwick and (h) Aberdeen data on services since 1990 are available from the CAA and the Russian Federation in the latest period for and I have arranged for it to be placed in the House which figures are available. [99572] Library. Finally, in considering the strategy to be adopted at Mrs Villiers [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The air services negotiations the Department for Transport United Kingdom’s bilateral air services arrangements routinely consults a range of stakeholders, including do not prescribe the establishment or operation of interested EU airlines, airport operators and the devolved routes and services, but rather set out the legal and Administrations, including Transport Scotland. regulatory framework under which services may be operated by the airlines of both sides. Departmental Procurement The Government’s overall objective for the UK’s air services negotiations is to seek to put in place liberal Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport arrangements that reciprocally remove restrictions on (1) what proportion of the total value of contracts market access, maximising competition between airlines, issued or to be issued by her Department in 2011-12 and allowing airlines to operate services based on their have required successful organisations to put up a capital own commercial decisions and assessment of market bond; and if she will make a statement; [94906] demand. (2) which contracts her Department has tendered or However, this is not always possible to achieve in the will tender in 2011-12 which require successful organisations context of a bilateral negotiation, and limitations do to have a capital bond of more than £5 million; which still remain in some of the UK’s air service arrangements contracts have not required such a bond; and if she will on the number of services that can be operated and, in make a statement. [94928] some cases, on the routeings that may be operated. The details of the air services arrangements between Norman Baker: In 2011-12 the Department tendered the UK and the six countries referred to are as follows: 77 contracts valued at £618.2 million. Of these, one (a) Brazil—no restriction on UK-Brazil routes since 2006 with contract, valued at £417.8 million (67.6% by total value) a current limit of 35 passenger services per week between the two required the successful organisation to put up a capital countries by the airlines of each side allowed; bond. The bond was more than £5 million and the (b) China—restricted to six points in the UK and six points in details of this are given in the following table. A table China since 2004 with a current limit of 31 passenger services per showing all other contracts awarded since 1 April 2011 week by the airlines of each side allowed; requiring no capital bond has been placed in the Libraries (c) India—no restriction on UK-India routes since 2005 with of the House. a current limit of 56 passenger services per week by the airlines of each side allowed on UK-Delhi and UK-Mumbai services, Contract—Greater Anglia (rail franchise) February 2012 to July 2014 14 passenger services per week by the airlines of each side allowed £ million on UK-Chennai and UK-Bangalore services, and seven passenger services per week by the airlines of each side allowed on services Supplier/Contractor Abellio: between any other city pair; Value 1417.8 (d) Japan—no restriction on UK-Japan routes since 2008 with Capital performance value 10 no restriction on the number of services per week allowed since 1 Value of the premium to be paid. 2012 other than to/from Tokyo, where there is a current limit of 28 passenger services per week by the airlines of each side allowed High Speed 2 Railway Line to/from Narita airport and seven passenger services per week by the airlines of each side allowed to/from Haneda airport during the nighttime/early morning period; Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (e) Russia—UK-Russia routes are restricted to eight points in (1) with reference to her Department’s publication 2012 Russia (Moscow, St Petersburg, Ekaterinburg, Rostov-on-Don, Economic Case for HS2 for what reason the projected Kaliningrad, Krasnoyarsk and two other points to be named by London to Liverpool high speed rail journey times have the UK) for UK airlines from any UK point, and six points in the increased compared to her 2011 consultation on high UK (London, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool and two other speed rail; [99579] points to be named by Russia) for Russian airlines from any Russian point. (2) for what reason she has altered the service specification assumptions for the high speed rail network in her In addition there are limits on the number of passenger services January 2012 revision to the Economic Case for HS2; per week allowed between specified city pairs. The current limits for the airlines of each side are 35 passenger services per week and why this has resulted in (a) reduced high speed allowed on London-Moscow, seven passenger services per week services (i) between Preston and London and (ii) between allowed on London-St Petersburg, and seven passenger services York and Darlington and (b) the removal of HS2 per week allowed on services between any other allowed city pair; services to Warrington and Wigan. [99580] 241W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 242W

Justine Greening: Indicative service specifications for Justine Greening: This figure represents the net cost the HS2 network have been prepared by HS2 Ltd for savings from the reconfiguration of intercity services the purpose of understanding the potential benefits of operating on the existing network and increases in other HS2, for inclusion in the economic case for the project. services utilising the capacity released on the existing As the document made clear, these specifications are network as a result of HS2. Separately, the Government purely illustrative. Final decisions on service specifications are implementing a range of measures to make the will be taken considerably nearer the opening of the railways financially sustainable in the long term. These network by a network operator based upon the latest plans are outlined in the Command Paper, “Reforming patterns of demand and in consultation with the towns Our Railways”, published on 9 March 2012. and cities served. I anticipate that HS2 will generate significant journey Motorways: Closures time savings not only for the key cities already identified on the network but also a range of other destinations Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport through classic compatible running and other means. for what reason the M3 was closed on 28 February HS2 will bring great benefits to the regions served and I 2012; what steps she is taking to reduce the number of look forward to working with them to ensure that all motorway closures; and if she will make a statement. the possible benefits are maximised. [99155]

Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mike Penning: The M3 was closed between Junction 2 with reference to her Department’s publication 2012 and 3 on 28 February due to a fatal collision, to which Economic Case for HS2 whether, in order to provide the response was police led. two services per hour between London and Newcastle We are taking a number of steps to reduce the impact on the proposed high speed rail network, she considered and number of motorway closures under the CLEAR alternatives to assigning £1 billion to special 260 metre initiative which includes: trainsets for Newcastle. [99583] Working with the police to produce training material to reduce collision investigation times and allow lanes for traffic flow to be Justine Greening: HS2 Ltd undertook an investigation released sooner. of whether it would be practical to operate the standard In turn, the police are revising their Road Death Investigation GC gauge continental trains right through to Newcastle, Manual to give the re-opening of lanes and roads a higher through gauge clearance works on this section of the priority. East Coast Main Line. The conclusion—as published in The Highways Agency is also working closely with VOSA to the “Review of Technical Specification of High Speed reduce the number of HGV incidents which result in longer duration closures and can have a significant impact on the motorway Rail in the UK”—was that the cost of upgrading the network. route to GC gauge would be between £3.5 billion and £4 billion, comparable to the cost of building an entirely Railways: Greater London new high speed railway between York and Newcastle. The additional rolling stock costs included in the Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport most recent economic case reflect the fact that more what work her Department has done on transferring rolling stock will be required to run the enhanced level responsibility for additional rail services in London to of services proposed in the service specification. The Transport for London. [99448] planned 260 metre train sets would enable higher capacity services to serve destinations off the HS2 network, Mrs Villiers [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The bringing significant benefits to passengers. The assumed Department is currently considering the proposals made cost of these 260 metre trains is pro-rata to the mechanically by Transport for London regarding London rail services. ″ ″ similar 200 metre classic compatible trains. This consideration will take place alongside our assessment of responses to the consultation on the decentralisation Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport of rail services that we have recently published. with reference to her Department’s publications Economic Case for HS2 published in 2011 and Economic Case for Railways: Hertfordshire HS2 published in January 2012, for what reason the projected cost of operating and maintaining the HS2 Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport network over the 60 year appraisal period has increased what representations she has received on the forthcoming by £5.9 billion. [99584] decision on the Radlett Rail Freight site from (a) local residents, (b) Helioslough, (c) First Capital Connect Justine Greening: The reasons are set out at section 4.5 and (d) St Albans City and District Council. [98034] of the “Economic Case for HS2: Updated Appraisal of Transport User Benefits and Wider Economic Benefits”, Mrs Villiers: None. This is a planning matter for the available at Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/hs2-economic-case- my right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and appraisal-update/ Ongar (Mr Pickles).

Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport with reference to her Department’s publication January what (a) meetings and (b) discussions she has had with 2012 Economic Case for HS2, what steps she plans to the Secretary of State for Communities and Local take to achieve the £5.1 billion of operating savings on Government on the forthcoming decision on the Radlett the existing rail network. [99585] Rail Freight site. [98035] 243W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 244W

Mrs Villiers: The Secretary of State for Transport, Homelessness my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), has not had any meetings with the Secretary Mr Crausby: Toask the Secretary of State for Communities of State for Communities and Local Government, my and Local Government what recent representations he right hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar has received on the (a) size and (b) condition of the (Mr Pickles), about the forthcoming decision on the homeless population. [99312] Radlett Rail Freight site. Grant Shapps: Homelessness charities regularly publish Railways: Information Services research and information on the potential size and causes of homelessness. Ministers from this Department Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport regularly meet with key partners in the voluntary sector which holders of (a) passenger train and (b) train to discuss homelessness issues. station licences have not met the Office of Rail Regulation’s This Government are committed to tackling 1 March 2012 deadline to modify the provision of homelessness. We have acted decisively to introduce a passenger information during disruptions. [99449] more accurate assessment of rough sleeping levels so that there is clear information in all areas, to inform Mrs Villiers [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The service provision and action to address the problem. Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) has informed us that The previous Government’s approach to assessing rough all the holders of the passenger licences and the station sleeping did not capture the full extent of the problem licences have accepted the modifications and ORR has across the country. made the modifications to the licences. We have maintained funding for Homelessness Grant at 2010-11 levels with £400 million over the next four West Coast Railway Line years. In addition, Supporting People investment at £6.5 billion over the same period will protect the preventative Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport services that help the most vulnerable live independently what assessment she has made of the conclusion of and retain their tenancies. Network Rail and Passenger Focus’s report entitled On top of that the Government have announced an Future priorities for the West Coast Main Line that additional £70 million investment this year: congestion is projected on the West Coast Main Line at £20 million—Homelessness Transition Fund to support the Colwich Junction between 2026 and 2033 created by roll-out of No Second Night Out and protect vital front line new high speed rail trains and freight services; and what services. steps her Department is taking to reduce any such £20 million—Preventing Repossessions Fund to enable local congestion. [99581] authorities to intervene earlier and help people stay in their homes. Justine Greening: The report published by Network £20 million—Single Homelessness Prevention Fund to help Rail and Passenger Focus makes clear that the opening ensure single homeless people get access to good housing advice. of the first phase of HS2 will present valuable opportunities £5 million boost to the Homelessness Change Programme for passenger and freight improvements on the West (bringing the total investment to £42.5 million) to deliver improved hostel provision and provide over 1,500 new and improved bed Coast Main Line, and shows there are a number of spaces. potential options for managing the allocation of capacity £5 million—Social Impact Bond—using a payment by results between passenger and freight services at Colwich Junction. model to help persistent rough sleepers in London. This is the HS2 Ltd is working with Network Rail on a number of first Social Impact Bond set up to tackle homelessness in the interface issues between HS2 and the existing network, world. including options for making the best use of capacity on the West Coast Main Line to the north of the HS2 Housing junction at Lichfield. Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many people have been admitted to hospital as a result of category 1 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT and category 2 hazards in housing, in each of the last five years. [100153] Fire Services: Finance Andrew Stunell: This information is not held centrally.

Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Landlords: Private Rented Housing Communities and Local Government if he will take into account in future formula settlements the contribution Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for of Metropolitan fire and rescue authorities to the Communities and Local Government what steps he has maintenance of national resilience capacity and support taken to encourage best practice amongst landlords in for neighbouring fire and rescue services. [99816] the private rented sector. [100112]

Robert Neill: Support for neighbouring fire and rescue Grant Shapps: In August 2011, a package of guidance authorities is a statutory duty and a mutually beneficial for both landlords and tenants was placed on my process. National resilience capability is funded through Department’s website. The guidance covered the rights a specific grant; neither national resilience nor mutual and responsibilities for tenants and landlords in the support is affected by formula settlements. private rented sector and included advice on best practice. 245W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 246W

We also encourage local authorities and the sector itself fund will provide funding on a bid basis for projects to embrace best practice through accreditation schemes which support the economic development of coastal and industry-led initiatives such as SAFEAgent—a communities by promoting growth and jobs. It is a consumer facing campaign to highlight the important rolling programme with annual bidding rounds, reflecting of client money protection. our commitment to help coastal communities build stronger and more diverse local economies now and in Local Government: Procurement the future. The Coastal Communities Fund is one of a number Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for of funding schemes supported by the Government which Communities and Local Government if his Department may potentially assist regeneration in seaside towns, will make an assessment of the use of PAS91 by individual including the European Regional Development Fund local authorities in England; and if he will make a and the Regional Growth Fund. My Department has statement. [99830] also published a regeneration toolkit to accompany the Government’s response to the Communities and Local Andrew Stunell: Information on the use of PAS91 is Government Select Committee report on regeneration, not collected centrally by the Department for Communities which has been deposited in the Library of the House. and Local Government.

Parish Councils: Bureaucracy FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will estimate British Indian Ocean Territory the proportion of taxpayers’ money spent by Bayston Hill parish council on administration; and if he will assess the extent to which best practice is being followed. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for [99831] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has responded to any requests made under the Freedom of Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and Information Act 2000 in respect of the British Indian Local Government does not hold information on the Ocean Territory Administration. [99459] expenditure of individual parishes, and so cannot provide the assessment requested. Mr Bellingham: We have responded to 35 Freedom of Information requests since 2005 on the British Indian Social Rented Housing: West Midlands Ocean Territory.

Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Central Africa Communities and Local Government what assessment his Department has made of the level of social rented housing provision in the West Midlands; and if he will Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what support his Department make a statement. [99426] has given to the authorities in Central African states to Andrew Stunell: Figures on dwelling stock in English assist with the arrest of Joseph Kony. [99432] districts for the years 2009, 2010 and 2011 are available in live table 100, which is published on the Department Mr Bellingham: Britain is an active member of the for Communities and Local government’s website at International Working Group on the Lord’s Resistance the following link. This gives a breakdown of dwelling Army (LRA), and has the lead in the UN Security stock by tenure including local authority, housing Council on LRA matters. We have used these positions association and other public sector dwellings. to urge the UN missions in the region to co-ordinate http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ better the international response to the LRA. This housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/stockincludingvacants/ includes the production of a regional UN LRA strategy livetables/ and the closer coordination of UN and African Union (AU) efforts. This has promoted dialogue amongst Central Urban Areas: Coastal Areas African states and their international partners on the best way to tackle the LRA, protect populations affected David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for by their actions and bring Kony to justice. Communities and Local Government what his policy is The British Government support the recent efforts on long-term regeneration of seaside towns. [99250] made by the AU to co-ordinate regional military efforts against the LRA, and the appointment of an AU Special Grant Shapps: My Department recognises that coastal Envoy on the LRA. The EU, with British contributions and seaside towns face many economic and social challenges and support, has made a package of support available and works across Government to support efforts to to the AU to help establish the Special Envoy’s office promote their economic regeneration and strengthen and the co-ordination support it requires. their appeal as places to live, work and visit. We have made significant contributions to UN In partnership with relevant Government Departments, programmes to disarm and demobilise LRA combatants the devolved Administrations and Big Lottery Fund, it and reintegrate them into their home communities. has led work to design and develop the new UK-wide These programmes have helped to remove a steady Coastal Communities Fund launched last month. The stream of LRA combatants from the conflict. 247W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 248W

Embassies: Expenditure Alistair Burt: The Government discourage trade with Iran. As part of the dual track policy of pressure and engagement, the Government are committed to lobbying Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for other countries to (i) implement targeted UN sanctions Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs in which 15 nations against Iran rigorously, and (ii) extend sanctions against the Government spent the most on maintaining diplomatic Iran to the same level as those agreed by the UK, missions in the latest period for which figures are available; wherever possible. to how many missions that sum applied in each such country; what his most recent estimate is of the number The Government regularly discuss these issues with of British nationals (a) living permanently in each both India and China. In particular, we have recently country and (b) who visit each country each year; and lobbied both countries to reduce their dependence on what the monetary value was of UK trade with each Iranian oil following the implementation of a phased such country. [96555] oil embargo (by the EU) on 23 January. Iraq Mr Lidington: The 15 nations the Foreign and Commonwealth Office spent the most on maintaining Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for diplomatic missions with during 2010-11 (in cost order) Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment are: his Department has made of the security situation in Iraq; and if he will make a statement. [99428] Number of Country posts Residents1 Visits2 Alistair Burt: We remain concerned about the fragile Iraq 3 4,000 — security situation in Iraq, including an unwelcome increase USA 12 829,000 5,525,000 in sectarian tensions. I condemned the terrorist attacks Belgium 3 28,000 — which targeted Iraqi police on 23 February. I called on Afghanistan 2 300 — Iraq’s political leaders to unite to ensure political progress Japan 2 22,000 — delivers real improvements in security for all of Iraq’s Germany 3 3144.643 2,335,000 people, and to bring the perpetrators to justice. We Brazil 5 11,000 — continue to support the Iraqi Government in its fight Spain 9 808,000 12,338,267 against terrorism, including through the training of China 5 47,000 1,173,109 Iraqi police and security forces, and strengthening the Switzerland 3 338,239 732,050 rule of law. Russian 3 6,000 — North Korea Federation France 6 253,000 19,300,000 Canada 5 611,000 724,000 Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign South Africa 4 219,000 — and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the effect of the death of Kim Jong-il and India 10 36,000 787,000 the succession to the leadership of Kim Jong-un on the 1 Numbers of residents taken from the IPPR 2010 report “Global Brit: Making the most of the British diaspora” (except where marked). political situation in North Korea. [99167] 2 Information on visits can only be obtained from host Governments. Where we can provide this information, it is taken from the 2011 Mr Bellingham: It appears that the succession from British Behaviour Abroad report. Kim Jong-il to Kim Jong-un is progressing smoothly. 3 Figure from local authorities. Everyday life is continuing and the situation in North The figures for our posts in the USA, Belgium, Korea, and in the region more generally, is calm. However, Switzerland and France include the FCO delegations to the situation in North Korea remains unpredictable, international bodies such as the UN (New York and making it difficult to forecast how the regime will react. Geneva), NATO (Brussels), Council of Europe (Strasbourg) The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth and the OECD (Paris). Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond The monetary value of UK trade is published at the (Yorks) (Mr Hague), welcomed the recent agreement following links: trade in goods: between the US and the North Korea on North Korea’s https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=summaryTrade nuclear weapons programme in a public statement on 29 February. If the North Korean Government upholds and via the interactive table tool at: this commitment and seizes this opportunity, it will find https://www.uktradeinfo.com/ that the international community is ready to work with index.cfm?task=td_inttradetables; North Korea to achieve lasting peace and security on trade in services is published in table 9.13 in the Office the Korean Peninsula. of National Statistics Pink Book 2011 at: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-21551 and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the Government is taking in respect of the repatriation of North Korean refugees from China to North Korea; and what assessment Iran he has made of the likely treatment of refugees when they are repatriated to North Korea. [99775] Michael Ellis: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he Mr Bellingham: We are aware of reports of mistreatment has had with his (a) Chinese and (b) Indian counterparts of refugees who have been returned to North Korea. We on trade with Iran. [99726] use every opportunity to raise reported abuses of 249W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 250W international human rights standards with the North condition-based not time-based process. Turkey must Korean Government, both through the North Korea meet all the requirements of the EU acquis before it can embassy in London and through our embassy in join the EU. Turkey has made clear its firm strategic Pyongyang. commitment to accession and we support its full We have also raised our concerns with the Chinese membership. The UK works closely with EU member Government about the treatment of North Korean state counterparts and with the European Commission nationals upon repatriation. We have urged Beijing to to encourage and support progress in Turkey’s accession allow access by the relevant UN organisations to North process. Korean citizens in China. Most recently we raised this issue with the Chinese Government at the 19th Round of the UK-China Human Rights Dialogue in January INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY 2011. We will continue to raise the issue of North STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE Korean refugees with the Chinese Government. The UK participated in the discussion of last month’s Manpower report by the UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights in North Korea at the UN Human Rights Council on Sir Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, 12 March. At the meeting we agreed with the Special representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Rapporteur that all states should adhere to their obligations Parliamentary Standards Authority, which constituency to provide asylum seekers protection. offices of hon. Members IPSA staff visited (a) as part of the consultation into staffing needs for hon. Members Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and (b) for other reasons in the last 12 months. [99240] and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take steps to urge China to abide by its responsibilities under the 1951 Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls Refugee Convention and stop forced repatriation of within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary North Korean refugees. [99776] Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Letter from Andrew McDonald, dated 13 March 2012: Mr Bellingham: We have raised our concerns with the Chinese Government on a number of occasions about As Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary the treatment of North Korean nationals upon repatriation, Question asking about visits to constituency offices in the last and urged them to allow access by the relevant UN twelve months. organisations to North Korean citizens in China. This IPSA staff have visited the constituency offices of MPs for the formed a part of discussions at the 19th Round of the following constituencies. UK-China Human Rights Dialogue in January 2011. (a) As part of the review of the MPs’ Scheme of Business Costs We will continue to raise the issue of North Korean and Expenses: refugees with the Chinese Government. Barrow and Furness Carmarthen East and Dinefwr Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will encourage the Edmonton BBC World Service to consider establishing a Korean Fylde language service to broadcast in North Korea. [99777] Islington South and Finsbury Lewisham, Deptford Mr Bellingham: The Foreign and Commonwealth Lewisham West and Penge Office holds regular meetings with the BBC World Luton South Service to discuss its strategic direction and priority North Ayrshire and Arran markets. North Korea has been discussed in this context. Preseli Pembrokeshire However in North Korea it is illegal for citizens to Putney listen to any radio or television broadcasts except from the state broadcaster. This means the options for reaching Scunthorpe audiences are extremely limited and resources devoted St Ives to such broadcasting would have a very low impact. Streatham This necessarily affects the BBC World Service’s decisions Torridge and West Devon on this issue. Westmoreland and Lonsdale Wyre and Preston North Turkey (b) For other reasons: Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Ashfield Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he Chelsea and Fulham has made of the likely date of Turkey’s accession to the Croydon South EU. [99832] East Dunbartonshire North Thanet Mr Lidington: Her Majesty’s Government strongly Shrewsbury and Atcham support Turkey’s accession to the EU. We believe this would benefit security and prosperity in both the EU Members: Allowances and Turkey. Successive European Councils have made clear that Sir Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Turkey is a candidate for full membership of the EU representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent and the EU must keep its commitment to candidate Parliamentary Standards Authority, what methods were countries. Accession for any candidate country is a used to consult members of the public on the hon. 251W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 252W

Members’ scheme of business costs and expenses between No record is held of the country of origin of food 24 November 2011 and 20 January 2012; what the cost procured by the House of Commons catering service was of such consultation; and how many members of and so it is not possible to confirm the overall proportion the public participated in the consultation. [99239] of food sourced from British producers. However, certain categories of food are purchased in accordance with Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls higher animal welfare schemes or standards that demand within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary full traceability through the supply chain, and estimate Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. that over the past 12 months: (i) more than 98% of fresh Letter from Andrew McDonald, dated 13 March 2012: meat and poultry supplies were from British reared and As Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards slaughtered livestock; (ii) around two-thirds of seafood Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary supplied was caught in British coastal waters; (iii) all Question asking about the consultation on the MPs’ Scheme of fresh eggs were British, Lion-stamped and Freedom Business Costs and Expenses. Food assured; (iv) all fresh milk and cream was sourced The consultation document was made available on IPSA’s from UK producers; and (v) all dairy ice creams and website from 24 November 2011 to 20 January 2012, accompanied sorbets were produced in the UK using local fresh milk by an online survey. The marginal cost involved in hosting the and cream. document and the survey on the website was negligible. IPSA pays an annual charge of £395 plus VAT for the survey facility. Twelve members of the public responded to the consultation document. A further 121 members of the public responded to the consultation survey. The Report on the Consultation and the new HOME DEPARTMENT edition of the “MPs’ Scheme of Business Costs and Expenses” were laid before Parliament on 5 March 2012. Bank Services Redundancy Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Sir Bob Russell: To ask the hon. Member for Broxbourne, Department with reference to EU Council Act 2001/C representing the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent 326/01 of 16 October 2001, on how many occasions the Parliamentary Standards Authority, for what reason UK authorities (a) issued and (b) received requests to IPSA decided that staff in receipt of redundancy packages (i) provide information on a bank account pursuant employed by hon. Members prior to the creation of to Article 1 of the Act, (ii) provide information on IPSA should not be entitled to a doubling of the banking transactions pursuant to Article 2 of the Act statutory minimum in the redundancy package made and (iii) monitor banking transactions under Article 3 available for staff on IPSA contracts. [99241] of the Act in each year since 2002; and how many of each type of request have been granted. [99987] Mr Charles Walker: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the Independent Parliamentary James Brokenshire: Outgoing requests under EU Council Standards Authority. I have asked IPSA to reply. Act 2001/C 326/01 of 16 October 2001 are issued directly Letter from Andrew McDonald, dated 13 March 2012: by UK prosecution agencies and other judicial authorities and are not recorded by the Home Office. The UK As Chief Executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Central Authority (UKCA) within the Home Office Question asking about the doubling of redundancy packages for deals with incoming requests only in relation to England, MPs’ staff employed prior to the creation of IPSA. Wales and Northern Ireland. Articles 1-3 of EU Council IPSA has no control over contractual arrangements between Act 2001/C 326/01 of 16 October 2001 are not the MPs and their staff that were entered into prior to the creation of exclusive means by which member states may request IPSA. MPs are free to move staff to IPSA contracts if both banking information. The UKCA records do not distinguish parties agree. between requests made under EU Council Act 2001/C 326/01 of 16 October 2001 and those made on any other valid basis and neither do they distinguish between requests for (i) and (ii). No requests have been received HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION for (iii) although they may not have been separately recorded if made alongside a request for (i) and/or (ii). House of Commons: Catering

Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the hon. Member for Boothby Report Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission what proportion Damian Collins: To ask the Secretary of State for the of food procured by the House of Commons (a) meets Home Department pursuant to the letter of 24 January the Government Buying Standards for Food and 2012 from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State Catering and (b) is from British sources. [99812] for Crime and Security to the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe, whether a copy of the Boothby John Thurso: The House of Commons catering service Report has been located; and if this will be made is part of the House Service, and therefore is not subject available to the hon. Member’s constituent, Mr Paul to the Government Buying Standards for food and Cleeland. [97124] catering. However, the catering service seeks to follow industry best practice and so has recently completed an James Brokenshire [holding answer 28 February 2012]: audit of its performance against the Government Buying I have been informed that a copy of the Boothby Standards. I am placing a copy of the audit report in Report has been provided, by Hertfordshire police, to the House of Commons Library. solicitors acting for Mr Cleeland. 253W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 254W

Crime: Nature Conservation Persons proceeded against at magistrates courts for cannabis supply and cultivation offences, England and Kent police force area, 2006 to 20101, 2 Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for the Area 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Home Department what steps she is taking to reduce international wildlife crime; and if she will make a England statement. [99156] Supply and 2,094 2,049 2,397 2,586 3,488 possession with intent to supply James Brokenshire: The Government works through cannabis the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Cultivate cannabis 1,703 2,386 2,956 3,935 6,294 Species (CITES) to tackle smuggling and trafficking of Of which: wildlife. In line with the coalition’s commitments, the Home Office is working closely with the Department Kent police force area:3 for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (which leads Supply and —15527792 on CITES) to ensure an effective multi-agency, operational possession with response to combating the smuggling and illegal trade intent to supply of wildlife. This includes co-funding the National Wildlife cannabis Crime Unit, which has as one of its priorities tackling Cultivate cannabis 2 11 71 109 154 CITES related crimes, and it in turn has provided 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons assistance to a range of international enforcement agencies. for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or This response will be further strengthen by the creation more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is in 2013 of the Border Policing Command, within the imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more National Crime Agency,whose remit will include co-ordinating offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory the activities of the agencies operating in and around maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 the border, principally Border Force, to crack down on Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these the trafficking of wildlife through the UK border. data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their Crimes of Violence: Pedicabs inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Data relating to the Kent police force area for 2006 and 2007 are Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for the known to have been under-reported. Home Department what representations she has received Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. on assaults committed by drivers of rickshaws plying [Ref: 203-12] for hire. [99160] EU Justice and Home Affairs James Brokenshire [holding answer 13 March 2012]: The Home Office has no records of having received representations on assaults committed by riders of rickshaws Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home plying for hire. Department what assessment she has made of the UK’s compliance with EU Council Decision 2000/375/JHA of 29 May 2000, on combating child pornography on the internet. [99919] Drugs James Brokenshire [holding answer 13 March 2012]: Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the We believe that the UK is fully compliant with the Home Department (1) how many people were charged Council Decision. The UK must decide, no later than with offences relating to the cultivation of cannabis in 31 May 2014, whether to accept full European Court of (a) Dartford constituency, (b) Kent and (c) England Justice jurisdiction over those EU police and criminal in each of the last five years; [99212] justice measures adopted before 1 December 2009 which (2) how many people were charged with offences have not been amended or replaced. This measure falls relating to the sale of cannabis in (a) Dartford constituency, within the scope of that decision and will be reviewed (b) Kent and (c) England in each of the last five years. accordingly. [99213] The Government take child protection very seriously and strongly support the work of the Child Exploitation James Brokenshire: The number of persons proceeded and Online Protection centre, the internet industry and against at magistrates courts for cannabis supply and the Internet Watch Foundation to tackle illegal images cultivation offences in England and the Kent police of child sexual abuse. force area, from 2006 to 2010 (latest available), is given in the following table. EU Justice and Home Affairs Council Charging data at this level of detail are not collated centrally thus proceedings data have been given in lieu. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Court proceedings data held centrally by the Ministry Department pursuant to the answer of 5 March 2012, of Justice are not available at parliamentary constituency Official Report, column 520W, on EU Justice and level. Home Affairs Council, if she will publish the findings Annual court proceedings data for 2011 are planned of each of the five evaluation rounds conducted under for publication in May 2012. EU Joint Action 97/827/JHA. [99348] 255W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 256W

James Brokenshire [holding answer 12 March 2012]: James Brokenshire: A number of police forces have The Council Secretariat of the European Union seen rises in the theft of gold and other precious metals co-ordinates the evaluation process and the final reports. and have responded by working closely with their Once finalised, the reports are made public. Final reports communities and businesses to offer advice on security on the first four evaluations have been published and and good practice. How the police respond to local can be found on the Council’s public register using the crime priorities is an operational matter for the chief following link and document reference numbers. constable and from November this year, police and http://www.consilium.europa.eu/documents?lang=en crime commissioners. 8648/01—1st round report The Home Office will continue to listen to the advice 9615/03—2nd round report of the police and industry concerning the theft and 13321/07—3rd round report re-sale of gold and other precious metals and, if appropriate, 8302/09—4th round report take steps at a national level in support of local action. Families Metropolitan Police Service: Finance Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many civil servants in her Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department are working on the troubled families initiative. Department how much funding the Metropolitan Police [99176] service received from the European Commission for Operation Golf. [98774] James Brokenshire: The troubled families team, which administers this initiative, is based within the Department Nick Herbert: This information is not held centrally. for Communities and Local Government. Officials within Any payments made by the Metropolitan Police Service my Department are in regular touch with this team on relating to operational matters, or income received by all aspects of the programme, but are not a formal part the force from sources other than the police main grant of the team. are a matter for the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether funding of the troubled families initiative has had implications for the funding Police of other programmes operated by her Department; what such programmes are; and what funding has been so directed in each case. [99514] Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) what assessment she has made of James Brokenshire: The Home Office is contributing the draft proposals of the West Midlands and Surrey £75 million over the next three financial years to the police authorities to contract out policing services to troubled families programme. This funding has been the private sector; [98817] allocated as a result of reduced costs in other areas and (2) what her policy is on the areas of police authority from the Department’s contingency provision. No expenditure that are not appropriate for contracting to previously announced programmes will be cut as a private sector companies; [98818] result of this decision. (3) what guidance she has issued to (a) the Association Firearms: Forensic Science of Chief Police Officers and (b) police authorities on the commissioning of front-line policing services from the private sector; [98819] Damian Collins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the letter of 24 January (4) what estimate she has made of the cost to the 2012 from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State public purse of the managing of private sector contracts for Crime and Security to the hon. Member for Folkestone by police authorities; [99198] and Hythe, whether she has received a response from (5) what guidance she has given to police authorities the Forensic Science Regulator as to whether a review is on requirements for due diligence on the letting of necessary into firearm discharge residue testing; and if police contracts to the private sector. [99199] she will make a statement. [97123] Nick Herbert: The Home Office supports police James Brokenshire [holding answer 28 February 2012]: authorities and police forces (and from November 2012 Mr Andrew Rennison (the Forensic Science Regulator) Police and Crime Commissioners) in examining options has proposed an initial review of the use of the sodium for private sector partnering as part of broader efforts rhodizonate test in the 1970s. Details of the review were to reduce costs while maintaining and improving services set out in a letter to the hon. Member on 3 March. A to the public. copy of that letter has been provided to the Library of the House. Chief constables and police authorities are responsible for decisions on spending and are accountable for achieving Gold: Theft results which ensure value for money. There is no intention to allow private companies to Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for carry out police activities which require warranted powers the Home Department what steps the Government is except to the extent that this has already been achieved taking to reduce levels of theft and resale of (a) gold for detention and escort officers by legislation passed and (b) other precious metals. [99129] under the previous Government. 257W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 258W

Telecommunications: Databases (a) £2.3 billion for deposit balances up to EUR 20,887 (£16,872) which should have been paid by the Icelandic Depositors and Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Investor Guarantee Fund (DIGF). Department how many requests to (a) intercept and (b) £1.4 billion for deposit balances above £16,872 and below transmit telecommunications and (b) intercept, record £50,000 which the FSCS is liable for. and transmit telecommunications under Article 18 of (c) £0.8 billion for deposit balances above £50,000 which HM EU Council Act of 29 May 2000 (2000/C197/01) have Treasury is liable for. UK authorities (i) made to and (ii) received from other Negotiations took place with Iceland and in December EU member states in each of the last 10 years; and how 2010 a new loan agreement was initialled by the UK many of those requests have been granted. [99347] and Iceland in respect of the £2.3 billion loan. This loan was ratified by the Icelandic Parliament but on 8 April James Brokenshire [holding answer 12 March 2012]: 2011 the loan agreement was rejected in an Icelandic The Home Office records do not distinguish between referendum. requests coming within (a) or (b). The UK has not As Iceland is a member of the European Economic made any requests under Article 18. The following table Area (EEA) the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) shows the numbers or requests received and granted for Surveillance Authority (ESA) will commence proceedings each of the last 10 years: against Iceland in the EFTA Court in respect of this loan. This case, which the ESA is preparing, will confirm Received Granted whether there is a legal obligation for Iceland to repay 2002 0 0 the amounts distributed by the UK and The Netherlands 2003 0 0 on behalf of Iceland. 2004 0 0 Details of the Icesave loans as at 31 March 2011, 2005 0 0 including repayments and interest received, can be found 2006 3 1 in Sections 36 of the Treasury Annual Reports and 2007 6 3 Accounts 2010-11. The report can be accessed via the 2008 5 2 following web link: 2009 1 0 http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/annual_report_ accounts140711.pdf 2010 0 0 2011 1 0 Figures as at 31 March 2012 will be published in the Treasury Annual Reports and Accounts 2011-12. The Government have exposure to three Icelandic banks in respect of compensation payments to UK TREASURY depositors: Landsbanki (Icesave), Heritable Bank plc Air Travel and Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander (KSF). However, Heritable Bank plc and KSF are UK-based banking subsidiaries of Icelandic banks and are regulated by the Mr Crausby: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Financial Services Authority (FSA). As such, there is on what occasions he has taken flights to overseas no liability from the Icelandic Authorities. countries on official business since August 2010; what class of travel was used on each such flight; and by whom he was accompanied. [99393] Business: York

Miss Chloe Smith: All ministerial visits are conducted Hugh Bayley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in accordance with the Ministerial Code and Travel by how many businesses in the city of York were registered Ministers. for VAT in each of the last 10 years. [99753] The Department has committed to publish details of ail ministers meetings, hospitality and overseas travel, Mr Gauke: Between 1999 and 2008, the number of including that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my businesses registered for value added tax at the start of right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne). the year is shown in the following table: This data is published on the HM Treasury website and can be found at: City of York http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm 1999 2,180 Banks: Iceland 2000 2,220 2001 2,270 Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Chancellor of the 2002 2,315 Exchequer what recent progress he has made in recouping 2003 2,330 the money owed to the UK by Iceland following their 2004 2,425 financial crisis. [99837] 2005 2,505 2006 2,565 Mr Hoban: In November 2008, following the Financial 2007 2,635 Services Authority’s (FSA) announcement that the UK 2008 2,765 branch of Landsbanki was in default, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS) began payouts These figures originate from the report ‘Business to UK depositors with Icesave. The FSCS made payments Start-ups and Closures: VAT Registrations and of approx. £4.5 billion to UK depositors in Icesave. De-registrations’, published by the Department for These payments were made up of three different tranches: Businesses Enterprise and Regulatory Reform in November 259W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 260W

2008. This report has now been discontinued. An extended (a) Although there is no requirement in the current series covering the later years can be produced only at contract to meet British Food Standards for Food and disproportionate costs. Catering, the sub-contractor works with the PFI supplier and the Treasury to ensure that these standards are Child Benefit: Rutherglen complied with as far as practical, bearing in mind they are a commercial organisation and Treasury has no direct contractual relationship with them. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people in Rutherglen and Hamilton West The hon. Member will recollect from my earlier answer constituency are currently in receipt of child benefit. of 1 December 2011, Official Report, column 1022W, [99533] on departmental food, that Treasury will ensure that the new contract references the Government’s Buying Standards Mr Gauke: There are 13,705 families in Rutherglen for Food and Catering as far as possible when the new and Hamilton West constituency currently in receipt of contract is let in July 2014. child benefit. Currently, the catering sub-contractor is accredited This information is published in the HMRC publication by Assured Food Standards and monthly product ranges ‘Child Benefit Statistics Geographical analysis at Country, include Red Tractor products appropriate to the season. Region, Local Authority and Parliamentary Constituency (b) For the period April 2010 to March 2011, the levels’. Information for August 2011 can be found at: catering sub-contractor sourced 71% of its food supplies http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/child_benefit/chb-geog- from UK food producers. aug11.pdf Table 6 has this information by Westminsterparliamentary Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands constituency. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Employment and Support Allowance Exchequer what estimate he has made of the amount that would be raised or lost in future years if the Mr Byrne: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 50 pence income tax rate were introduced at (a) £100,000, what savings to the public purse have been projected (b) £125,000, (c) £150,000, (d) £175,000 and (e) £200,000 from the reform of employment and support allowance income per annum; [99383] in each budget and autumn statement since May 2010. [99486] Mark Pritchard: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much revenue has accrued to the Exchequer from Danny Alexander: The information requested is available the introduction of the 50 pence tax rate; and what the on the HM Treasury website within Tables 2.1 and 2.2 cost to the public purse has been of collecting it. [99999] of the relevant fiscal event documents. The website can be accessed at: www.hm-treasury.gov.uk Mr Gauke: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), has asked HM Revenue and Customs to assess the Film revenue from the 50 per cent rate of income tax. HMRC will consider a wide range of evidence including data Mike Weatherley: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer from the 2010-11 self-assessment returns filed at the end (1) what estimate his Department has made of the of January 2012. contribution to the national balance of payments of the Until HMRC’s assessment has been completed it is animation industry; [98547] not possible to assess the impact of the introduction of (2) what estimate his Department has made of the the additional 50 per cent income tax rate at different value to the economy of the animation industry. thresholds. [98549] Information relating to the cost to HMRC of collecting this revenue is not available. Mr Gauke: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage Loans: Local Government (Mr Vaizey), gave on 27 February 2012, Official Report, column 42W. Mr Betts: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his Department has estimated how much the Food Debt Management Office will raise from the financial charge levied on loans provided to local authorities Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the under the self-financing housing reforms. [95716] Exchequer what proportion of food procured by his Department (a) meets the Government Buying Standards Mr Hoban [holding answer 22 February 2012]: If all for Food and Catering and (b) is from British sources. eligible authorities choose to borrow from the Public [99798] Works Loan Board (PWLB), which is part of the UK Debt Management Office (DMO), to fund all their Miss Chloe Smith: HM Treasury’s catering services obligations under the housing reform scheme, up to are currently provided by a sub-contractor to our PFI £13.4 billion could be borrowed. This would be equivalent provider. to around £4.7 million in fees. 261W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 262W

Fees are non-discretionary and set by regulation and Statutory fee income is routinely published in the PWLB’s annual instrument Name of regulation Costs/savings and further report and accounts. number repealed information

Fees contribute towards the DMO’s costs of delivering 1995 No. 31 Credit Unions —1 the PWLB function in the year they are levied, with any (Authorized surplus being managed by HM Treasury within the Investments) departmental expenditure limit (DEL) and in keeping Regulations with standard public spending control processes. (Northern Ireland) 2006 No. 76 Credit Unions —1 Regulation (Limit on Membership) Order (Northern Gordon Banks: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Ireland) how many regulations his Department repealed between 2006 No. 77 Credit Unions —1 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012; and what estimate he (Limit on Shares) has made of the likely savings in each case. [97920] Order (Northern Ireland) 2006 1 Miss Chloe Smith: Between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2006 No. 78 Credit Unions — (Deposits and 2012, HM Treasury has repealed the following statutory Loans) Order instruments: (Northern Ireland) 2006 Statutory 1 Indicates brace instrument Name of regulation Costs/savings and further number repealed information Revenue and Customs

2011/1244 Syria (Asset- Both of these statutory Freezing) instruments are repealed by Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the Regulations 2011 The Syria (European Union Exchequer (1) what the budget is for moving HM Revenue Financial Sanctions) and Customs staff from Wingfield to Lynx House; and Regulations 2012 (2012/129). whether any costs have been incurred as a result of There are no costs or savings from the repeal.1 remodelling facilities to accommodate more people and 2011/2479 Syria (Asset- —1 upgrading the IT capacity at Lynx House; [99861] Freezing) (2) what estimate he has made of savings from the (Amendment) closure of Wingfield House; [99862] Regulations 2011 (3) how many HM Revenue and Customs staff will be moved to Lynx House; [99864] 1986 No. 130 Credit Unions Each of these statutory (Limit on Loans) instruments is repealed by (4) what the cost to the public purse will be of Regulations the Financial Services and increased travel allowances for HM Revenue and Customs (Northern Markets Act 2000 staff as a result of moving from Wingfield to Lynx Ireland) 1986 (Permissions, Transitional House. [99865] Provisions and Consequential Amendments) (Northern Mr Gauke: At present the closure of Wingfield House, Ireland Credit Unions) Portsmouth in 2014-15 is a proposal only and no final Order 2011 (2011/2832). The decisions have yet been made. The proposal would see statutory instrument all of the staff based at Wingfield House, a total of replaces them by bringing registration and regulation 454.6 full time equivalent parts, relocating to Lynx of Northern Irish Credit House with a small number remaining to provide face Unions to the Financial to face Inquiry Centre services either from Wingfield Services Authority (FSA) (or House or from an alternative location nearby. However future bodies). This will this may alter depending on individual circumstances involve an estimated Net Present Value cost of or on changes to business plans after the feasibility £796,000. This mainly falls process is completed. on the Treasury, Department HMRC is currently carrying out feasibility work on of Enterprise, Trade and all of its proposals and its findings will inform the Investment (DETI) and FSA as the result of setting and decision making process. The work undertaken includes administering the new looking at the capacity of importing offices along with regime. There are expected one to one discussions between staff and their managers to be unqualified benefits to to establish how personal circumstances may affect an business such as increased individual’s ability to travel. consumer protection on the ability of Northern Irish If the closure goes ahead financial support in the Credit Unions to offer new form of daily travel assistance (DTA) will be considered products, such as ISAs.1 for those who face increased travel costs as the result of 1988 No. 245 Credit Unions —1 the move. Wingfield House is less than 3.5 miles from (Insurance Lynx House. DTA will normally be payable for three against Fraud etc.) Order years to people who qualify but this may be extended to (Northern five years for those who relocate outside of reasonable Ireland) travel. 263W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 264W

HMRC does not intend to publish specific costs or Tax Allowances: Film savings arising from individual buildings as there would be issues of commercial sensitivity in doing so. HMRC Mike Weatherley: Toask the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be looking at global savings across its estate as a whether he has considered introducing a tax credit for whole both to deliver the efficiencies required by the 2010 the animation industry. [98548] spending review and to take into account the Government targets on estate performance and sustainability in place Mr Gauke: All aspects of the tax system are kept for all civil service Departments. under review and any new policies are announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), at Budget. Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of staff that will leave HM Revenue and Customs through Taxation: Africa natural wastage in the next 12 months; how this estimate has been made; and whether HM Revenue and Customs took into account the increase in the pension Tessa Munt: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer age for women. [99863] what estimate he has made of the cost to developing countries in Africa of (a) the use of tax havens and Mr Gauke: HMRC’s current forecast anticipates that (b) corruption by companies based in the UK since an average of 265 full-time equivalent (FTE) posts will May 2010. [99247] be lost each month through natural wastage. This figure is an estimate reached at the beginning of the year and Mr O’Brien: I have been asked to reply on behalf of may well be reviewed for the future at the start of the Department for International Development. 2012-13. No such estimates have been made. This projection was reached using data provided by each of HMRC’s lines of businesses. The businesses Thames Estuary Airport have provided their projections on the best knowledge they had, including historical data and a forward look. Mark Reckless: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The projection makes assumptions about the number of (1) who (a) he and (b) his officials have met to discuss staff staying on beyond normal retirement age, informed proposals for an airport in the Thames Estuary in the by historical data on hand at the date of the forecast but last year; [99413] does not take into account the increase in pension age for women. (2) how many times (a) he, (b) Ministers in his Department and (c) officials in his Department have Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Chancellor of the met individuals or organisations in support of proposals Exchequer what effect the proposed reduction in HM for an airport in the Thames Estuary in the last year. Revenue and Customs staff of 10,000 full-time [99414] equivalents will have on the number of staff employed in the Portsmouth office. [99867] Danny Alexander: Treasury Ministers and officials have meetings with a wide variety of organisations in Mr Gauke: HMRC is still drawing up its plans to the public and private sectors as part of the process of meet this reduction and it is too soon to say just what policy development and delivery. this might mean for any individual location. However The Treasury publishes a list of ministerial meetings I can state that HMRC plans a long term future at with external organisations, available at: Portsmouth which together with Southampton forms http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm Solent, one of the 16 key locations where HMRC has announced it will be maintaining operations until at VAT: Tax Rates and Bands least 2020. Smuggling Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had in relation Ian Paisley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to lowering the rate of VAT on (a) maintenance or what plans his Department has to tackle illegal (a) home improvement and (b) tourism. [99384] tobaccco and (b) fuel smuggling. [99884] Mr Gauke: Treasury Ministers and officials have Miss Chloe Smith: In April 2011, HMRC published meetings with a wide variety of organisations in the a comprehensive new strategy: “Tackling Tobacco public and private sectors as part of the process of Smuggling—building on our success”. The strategy is policy development and delivery. available in the Commons Library and at: www.hmrc.gov.uk/news/tackling-tobacco.htm HMRC also has a comprehensive strategy in place to tackle fuel fraud and crime. The oils anti-fraud strategy BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS was launched in 2001 and has driven down the estimated illicit market considerably in both Great Britain and Banks: Foreign Workers Northern Ireland. The Government have re-invested over £900 million Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, over the spending review period from 2011-12 to 2013-14 Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to make it to tackle organised crime and tax evasion, including more difficult for jobs in the banking sector to be tobacco and oils fraud. outsourced overseas. [98140] 265W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 266W

Mr Prisk: Naturally the Government would like to Government have encouraged a better environment for Business see as many operations and the jobs associated with Angel investment through the establishment of the new £50 million them in the UK as possible. We do however recognise Business Angel Co-Investment Fund, which aims to support the benefits that off-shoring can bring, e.g. improving angel investments into high growth potential early stage Small and Medium sized Enterprises (SMEs). a firm’s competitiveness which may then lead to the subsequent creation of jobs back in the UK. It is Government have reformed the Enterprise Investment scheme (EIS) and Venture Capital Trusts (VCTs), increasing rate of companies themselves that are best placed to take strategic income tax relief for EIS to 30% and increasing amounts that can decisions about the location of their work force in order be invested in qualifying companies and the size of qualifying to maximise their ability to remain stable and competitive. companies (subject to state-aid clearance). From April 2012 the Government’s role is to ensure that we create the right Seed EIS (SEIS) scheme will provide income tax relief of 50% for economic conditions within the UK to support that stability individuals who invest in shares in qualifying seed companies, and growth. with an annual investment limit for individuals of £100,000 and cumulative investment limit for companies of £150,000. Business The Government’s Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG) is also available until 2014-15, to guarantee, subject to demand, up Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, to £2 billion in additional lending for those firms who lack the collateral or the track record to secure debt finance. From January Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to assist 2012 this was extended to include businesses with up to £44 million businesses improve their human resource functions. annual turnover and a number of new lenders have been accredited. [99887] To support firms’ access to finance the Government have also announced £21 billion of credit easing measures to support Mr Prisk: All Government support and advice for smaller and mid-sized businesses which will include £20 billion of businesses is available at: guarantees for bank funding to be made available over two years www.businesslink.gov.uk under the National Loan Guarantee scheme; and the £1 billion Government’s online information service for businesses Business Finance Partnership which will be deployed to stimulate markets in alternative forms of finance. which we have recently updated and improved. Improvements include a new growth and improvement As part of the Government’s “Business in You”campaign, the Government’s Business Link website provides advice and guidance service and my new business, a comprehensive start-up for businesses on the range of finance options available and how service which includes a range of online information, to apply. This can be found at training modules, and practical guides. There is also a www.improve.businesslink.gov.uk/resources/business-support- range of specific information and tools available under finder “Employment and Skills” to help businesses improve Additionally, there are a number of government agencies their human resource capability including recruitment, which offer businesses alternatives to bank finance through pay, managing people, conflict resolution and dismissals. more tailored support, this includes: In addition, we have facilitated a new national network The Technology Strategy Board (TSB) which provides a range of experienced business mentors. of support for R and D and innovation including grants; support www.mentorsme.co.uk for Knowledge Transfer; and is establishing a network of elite provides a single point of access for those seeking Catapult Centres to commercialise R and D on new and emerging mentoring and those seeking to be mentors, covering technologies. the whole of the UK and aims to raise awareness of The Manufacturing Advisory Service (MAS) which helps small mentoring. It currently provides access to around 75 and medium sized manufacturing firms achieve big improvements in their productivity and competitiveness by providing direct mentoring organisations and through them 11,000 mentors access to manufacturing experts who provide professional advice and this number continues to grow—offering both free and practical, hands-on support and paid for mentoring on a range of issues. Business: Regulation Business: Loans Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking a review of the one-in-one-out system. [99857] to promote sources of finance for small businesses other than bank lending. [99974] Mr Prisk: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave on 9 February 2012, Official Report, column 399-400W. Mr Prisk: It is important that businesses have access to a diverse range of finance sources, other than bank Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme lending, including equity investment and alternative forms of finance. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Business, Innovation and Skills how many small businesses Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham have been helped under his Enterprise Finance Guarantee (Vince Cable), has established an industry working group, scheme in the latest period for which figures are available. led by Tim Breedon of the Association of British Insurers [99376] to explore how to further develop non-bank lending channels. This group will report by Budget 2012. Mr Prisk: As of February 2012, 17,339 small and The Government itself have undertaken a range of medium-sized businesses had been offered loans under measures to promote a range of finance: the Enterprise Finance Guarantee scheme. The total To support equity investment in firms, Government have increased value of these loans is £1.76 billion. Not all of these its commitment to the Enterprise Capital Funds programme by loans offers have been drawn down by the companies £200 million over the four years to 2014-15, providing for more that have been offered them. The total number of drawn than £300 million of venture capital investment. down loans is 15,168 loans, valued at £1.52 bil1ion. 267W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 268W

EU Grants and Loans Norman Lamb: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I gave to the hon. Member for Cities of London and Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Westminster (Mark Field) on 1 March 2012, Official Innovation and Skills how much and what proportion Report, column 445W. of the total funds available under convergence funding has been spent in each qualifying area. [98913] Foreign Investment in UK Mr Prisk: The Structural Funds allocations for 2007-13 for areas of the UK with convergence funding status Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for and figures for the proportion of those allocations Business, Innovation and Skills what the longest period committed and paid to projects (as at end December of time taken has been for (a) a regional inward 2011) are set out in the following table. All of the investment organisation and (b) a local economic programmes are on track to achieve full commitment partnership to access international pipeline markets and spend. after having signed a memorandum of understanding with his Department. [99018] The figures relate to the European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) and the European Social Fund (ESF). Mr Prisk [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The longest Area Allocation Contractual Paid to projects waiting period from receipt of the relevant documentation (£ million) committed (£ million/ from a local partner seeking access to the single national (£ million/ (%)) pipeline was approximately six weeks (Northamptonshire (%)) Enterprise Partnership). The second longest waiting ERDF ESF ERDF ESF ERDF ESF period experienced was five weeks (Locate in Kent). The more typical waiting period (following receipt of West Wales 1135.9 770.3 893.7 699.3 291.8 244.9 and the (78.7) (90.8) (25.7) (31.8) the relevant documentation) is 48 hours to receive access Valleys to the national pipeline. Cornwall 392.4 163.7 289.7 163.0 205.9 67.7 The reason for the extended delay experienced by a and the Isles (73.8) (99.6) (52.5) (41.4) few partners was due to technical problems they faced of Scilly in accessing the National School of Government platform These are multi-year programmes and there is a time necessary for them to register for the e-learning training lag between contractual commitment and actual spend, modules that are mandatory in accessing the material with spend lower in the earlier years of the programmes. held in the pipeline. A solution has been developed to Allocations must be contractually committed by the address this access problem. end of 2013 and spent by the end of 2015. In order to avoid funds being ‘decommitted’ and returned to Brussels, Job Creation: Private Sector tranches of the allocation must be spent by set deadlines (allocation plus two years—‘N+2’). The UK has hit all Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State N+2 targets in this funding period. In 2011, West Wales for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has and the Valleys achieved 122% of N+2 for ERDF and made of private sector job creation in recent months. 134% for ESF. Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly achieved [98727] 110% for ERDF and 150% for ESF. Across the EU, as at end December 2011 the average Mr Prisk [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The percentage of the Structural Funds allocation paid out Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has not to member states by the Commission upon receipt of a produced any estimates of the number of jobs created valid claim for reimbursement for programmes was in the private sector in recent months. 24.2%. The UK’s performance was above average at 29.2%. While the Office for National Statistics also does not publish estimates of jobs created in the private sector, Exports: Kurdistan they do publish estimates of total employment in the private sector on a quarterly basis, which are shown in Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the following table, taken from the ONS Labour Market Innovation and Skills what the monetary value of each Statistics release on 15 February 2012. category of export to Kurdistan was in the last year for UK private sector employment which figures are available. [99089] Million, seasonally adjusted

Mr Prisk: HM Revenue and Customs Overseas Trade December 2010 22.945 Statistics only collect figures for countries on the geo- March 2011 23.059 nomenclature. Kurdistan is not listed as a separate June 2011 23.115 country, so it is not possible to separate out trade September 2011 23.120 figures for Kurdistan from the total trade figures for Iraq. Film: Intellectual Property London Development Agency: Pay

Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate his Innovation and Skills whether any staff employed by Department has made of the monetary value of the the London Development Agency received retention intellectual property owned by the UK animation industry. bonuses after the announcement of the abolition of the [98546] regional development agencies. [99955] 269W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 270W

Mr Prisk: The functions, assets and liabilities of the Mr Prisk: We have regular contact with the Tunisian- London Development Agency (LDA) are being transferred British Chamber of Commerce (TBBC) and are in the to the Greater London Authority, along with some process of agreeing a Memorandum of Understanding LDA staff. The LDA has not offered retention payments with regard to collaboration on areas of mutual interest. to any of its staff. We shall assist with a planned visit by the TBBC to the UK. Manufacturing Industries Public Consultation Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will (a) place in the Library Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for a copy of and (b) publish Sir Anthony Bamford’s Business, Innovation and Skills how many consultations report on UK manufacturing. [97558] the Government has conducted since May 2010. [99290]

Mr Prisk [holding answer 1 March 2012]: There are Mr Prisk: The Department does not record the number no plans to place the report in the Libraries of the House. of consultations conducted by Government. Manufacturing Industries: Government Assistance Shops: Empty Property

Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Innovation and Skills how much his Department spent for Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) recent on supporting the manufacturing sector in each of the steps he has taken and (b) steps he plans to take to last three years. [98224] encourage small businesses to take over unoccupied high street shops. [98729] Mr Prisk: BIS does not measure its expenditure by sector but by function, for example, during the past Mr Prisk [holding answer 12 March 2012]: Mary three years we have spent £43.8 million on the Grant for Portas’ independent review of the high street considered Business Investment, (which was the predecessor of the a wide range of issues and town centres. She made 28 Regional Growth Fund and from which the manufacturing recommendations including on the issue of unoccupied sector has been a key beneficiary) and £52.8 million on shops. The Minister for Housing and Local Government, the Manufacturing Advisory Service. my right hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield Overall, the Government provides a wide range of (Grant Shapps), will be responding on behalf of the support to the manufacturing sector. We announced a Government to her report in the spring. package of measures at the 2011 Budget in the “Plan Further recent initiatives include the launch of the for Growth” to help manufacturing firms commercialise High Street Pilot Scheme, a competition to find 12 areas technological innovations, boost access to a skilled to pilot a strategy for improving the economic vitality workforce and improve the image of the sector. of England’s high streets. Following the publication of In the autumn statement further measures were the growth report the Government extended the current announced that will benefit manufacturers including an small business rate relief holiday for one year from additional £6.3 billion—of which £1.3 billion was 1 October 2011. announced earlier in the year—in infrastructure investment over this spending review period, and a further £5 billion South West Regional Development Agency: Government in the next. We are now committing £2.4 billion to the Procurement Card Regional Growth Fund and £25 million to a Higher Apprenticeships Fund. In addition, we will be providing Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, £59 million to the modernised Manufacturing Advisory Innovation and Skills if he will place in the Library a Service between 2012 and 2015. There will also be more list of the Government Procurement Card transactions, funding for science and innovation. Furthermore, on including each transaction (a) date, (b) recipient and 6 December 2011 we launched a £125 million challenge (c) value made by the South West Regional Development fund to boost UK advanced manufacturing supply chains. Agency in (i) 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11. [99956]

Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Prisk: The South West Regional Development Innovation and Skills when he expects to invite bids for Agency has not made use of Government Procurement the Advanced Manufacturing Supply Chain Initiative. Cards and there are therefore no transactions to list. [99943] UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Mr Prisk: An advance notice of this competition was Organisation: Oil published on 9 February and further details will be available shortly. Information about this competition Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for can be found on the Technology Strategy Board website: Business, Innovation and Skills which UK-based companies www.innovateuk.org which develop and export oil shale technologies were in receipt of support from UK Trade and Investment on Overseas Trade: Tunisia the most recent date for which information is available. [97434] Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking Mr Prisk: The technology used to extract shale oil to help the Anglo-Tunisian Chamber of Commerce to has not been seen as sufficiently distinct from more increase bilateral trade. [99833] mainstream oil and gas technology to warrant a separate 271W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 272W classification in UK Trade and Investment’s Customer Cancer Relationship Management system. It is therefore not a straightforward matter to identify companies with Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State specifically shale oil-related equipment and services that for Health what recent steps he has taken to improve have made use of UKTI services. This means that collating (a) cancer, (b) accident and emergency, (c) paediatric a comprehensive list would incur a disproportionate cost. and (d) geriatric services in the West Midlands. [99332] Yorkshire Forward: Pay Paul Burstow: The provision of national health services Jake Berry: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, is a matter for the local NHS. Innovation and Skills whether any staff formerly employed by the Yorkshire Forward Development Agency received The NHS Operating Framework for 2012-13, published retention bonuses after the announcement by the by the Department in November 2011, states NHS Government of the abolition of the regional development organisations should continue to work to meet the agencies. [99733] expectations set out in “Improving Outcomes: A Strategy for Cancer”. Backed by more than £750 million over the Mr Prisk: The eight regional development agencies next four years, the strategy sets out plans to improve (RDA’s) have put in place arrangements to secure the earlier diagnosis, access to screening and treatment and retention of key staff until the agencies are closed. They improve patients’ experience of care. have made these arrangements with the approval of the On 13 December 2011, the Department published the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, first annual report of the Cancer strategy. The report the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), highlights progress made; including improved data collection and HM Treasury. This is to safeguard the taxpayer’s and analysis and campaigns to improve the public’s interest in making best use of the significant public awareness of cancer symptoms. assets that the RDAs have owned. A retention payment In October 2011, the Department piloted a five-week process had been recommended to be put into place by lung cancer awareness campaign in the Midlands using the National Audit Office. At Yorkshire Forward to television, radio, press and face-to-face events, to encourage date, no member of staff has received a retention payment. people who have had a cough for at least three weeks to see a general practitioner. Initial results indicate it has been successful in raising public awareness. HEALTH The eight new clinical quality indicators; that replaced Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs the accident and emergency four hour waiting time standard on 1 April 2011, have put in place more Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health meaningful performance measures that balance timeliness when he expects the (a) interim and (b) concluding of care with other indicators of quality, including clinical reports from the drug and alcohol recovery payment by outcomes and patient experience. The aim is to encourage results pilots and the report on lessons learned from a spirit of continuous improvement that will drive up those pilots will be published. [99335] standards of care, rather than simply achieving targets. Anne Milton: The Drugs and Alcohol Recovery Payment The “National Framework for Children and Young. by Results (PbR) pilots programme is being launched People’s Continuing Care”, sets out an equitable, in the week commencing 2 April 2012, and will be transparent and timely process for those children and independently evaluated. The evaluation findings and young people under the age of 18 who have continuing lessons learned will be widely disseminated. Detailed care needs that cannot be met by existing universal and publication plans will be developed in due course. specialist services alone and whose needs require bespoke Eight pilot areas will launch new PbR models which commissioning of services. The “National Framework” have been co-designed in April. The purpose of the leads to a child’s needs being assessed against 10 care pilots is to explore how PbR can work for drug recovery domains, irrespective of diagnosis. for adults in the community and to incentivise providers In January 2012 the Department announced the to support people to achieve lasting recovery. The development of a Children and Young People’s Health Department has commissioned the University of Outcomes Strategy, as. part of this Government’s Manchester to carry out a three-year independent evaluation commitment to ensure the health system plays an effective of the drugs and alcohol recovery PbR pilots programme. part in supporting the development and life chances of The evaluation team are required to produce the following young people. It will be published by summer 2012 so outputs/reports: recommendations can inform the planning for 2013-14. In June 2012, following an initial scoping and feasibility phase, The Department of Health is working with the provide a report including a selective review of the relevant Department for Education on a number of aspects of research literature, refined evaluation; proposals, detail on the engagement with pilot sites to date and any emerging findings; the Green. Paper on special educational needs and disability, published in March 2011, in response to calls Provide further interim reports on an annual basis; for better support for children with disabilities. Provide brief update reports on a quarterly basis, including submission of headline management information; and The Department encourages providers to increase-the Provide a final report in October 2014. quality of their services to older people, by sharing best Under the terms and conditions of departmental practice, bringing people together, and putting in place research contracts, research contractors are expected to the right system incentives. publish their findings. The evaluation team will be The Department aims to keep older people well and asked to produce a detailed publication and dissemination out of hospital; to help older people regain their plan in due course. independence after a period of support; to provide 273W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 274W older people with advice and choice around their end of caring role, through welfare reform and in developing life care; and to give older people a greater say in their the White Paper on care and support. We are looking at care. putting the rights of carers on a firmer footing in social The Department is developing a cross-government care so that they have similar rights to the people they Long-term Condition Outcomes Strategy that it aims care for. to publish in late 2012, which will promote patient and carer involvement and shared decision-making in all of Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State the support that people with long-term conditions receive. for Health what steps the Government is taking to ensure consistent levels of provision of social care Cancer: Drugs support. [99331]

Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Paul Burstow: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I Health whether Portsmouth NHS Trust informed his gave him on 5 December 2011, Official Report, column Department of the death of Mr Ricky Peter Hayes as a 128W. result of the use of fluorouracil; and if he will make a statement. [99334] Clinical Commissioning Group

Mr Simon Burns: We can confirm that the Department Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Health was not notified of the death of Mr Hayes. We are what payments are made to GPs for attendance at advised that Portsmouth Hospitals NHS Trust reported meetings of clinical commissioning groups. [99076] this case to the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. Mr Simon Burns: Subject to the Health and Social Care Bill, once a clinical commissioning group (CCG) Carers is established as a statutory body, its governing body will determine the remuneration, fees and allowances Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State payable to the employees of the CCG, or to other for Health what steps his Department plans to take to persons providing services to it, and will be advised on ensure that carers who care for a family member do not this by the remuneration committee. suffer ill-health as a consequence of their work. [99329] The CCG members will determine the remuneration, and travelling and other allowances for the governing Paul Burstow: “Recognised, valued and supported: body members. Next steps for the Carers Strategy”, sets out the priority areas for action over four years, between 2011 and 2015. A CCG may also pay such travelling and other This includes supporting carers to remain mentally and allowances as it considers appropriate to members, physically well. The Department funded 25 Carers Strategy individuals acting on behalf of members, and members Demonstrator sites that looked at various ways of of committees or sub-committees. supporting carers to look after their own health. An Any payments currently made to general practitioners independent evaluation “New Approaches to Supporting for attending meetings in relation to clinical commissioning Carers’ Health and Well-being”, was published last or the development of CCGs are a matter for the relevant year. This document has been placed in the Library and primary care trust. can be found at the following website at: www.sociology.leeds.ac.uk/circle/news/new-approaches.php Disadvantaged: Families We are providing additional funding of £400 million to the national health service between 2011 and 2015 to Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for support carers to take a break from their caring Health whether funding of the troubled families initiative responsibilities. has had implications for the funding of other programmes We have made almost £1 million available for general operated by his Department; what such programmes practitioner training in 2011-12, to increase their awareness are; and what funding has been so diverted in each case. and understanding of carers’ health needs so that they [99550] can receive appropriate advice and treatment and we plan to build on that further in 2012-13. Paul Burstow: The Troubled Families programme is one of a number of new programmes the Department is Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State funding over the spending review period. for Health what discussions he has held with the Funding has been found through the normal budget Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to prevent setting process, in which the Department reviews its poverty for carers who care for a family member; and if overall funding priorities, reallocates funding from work he will make a statement. [99330] areas which are coming to an end or where costs have changed, and adjusts funding to meet new priorities. It Paul Burstow: The Department has regular discussions is not possible therefore to identify exactly which changes, with the Department for Work and Pensions about across the Department’s budget, have contributed to benefits and support for those with caring responsibilities. funding for Troubled Families. The Cross Government’s Carers Strategy “Recognised, The Estimates Memorandum for each Department valued and supported: Next steps for the Carers’ Strategy”, will be published by Parliament and the estimates themselves recognises that carers should not face financial hardship will be published by Treasury in the early part of the and the Departments are working together to take new financial year 2012-13. These documents will carry forward various initiatives to support carers in their the detail of programme budget changes. 275W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 276W

Eyesight: Surgery The General Medical Council also published Consent: patients and doctors making decisions together on John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 June 2008, which draws attention to the need for Health (1) if he will commission an independent patient allowing patients time to reflect before and after a study on the results of laser eye surgery; [99418] decision is made. (2) what research his Department has (a) commissioned The Royal College’s standards cover the consent and (b) evaluated on the success of laser eye surgery. process which should follow General Medical Council [99419] guidelines. In addition, all providers of regulated activities under Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not directly the Health and Social Care Act 2008 must be registered commissioned or evaluated research specifically on the with the Care Quality Commission and meet the essential success of laser eye surgery, and has no plans to directly requirements of safety and quality. commission an independent patient study of the results These requirements include a requirement to have of such surgery. suitable arrangements in place for obtaining, and acting The Department’s National Institute for Health Research in accordance with, the consent of service users in (NIHR) funds the UK Cochrane Centre. The centre relation to the care and treatment provided for them. supports the preparation, maintenance and accessibility of systematic reviews of the effects of healthcare John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for interventions produced by 20 NIHR-funded Cochrane Health (1) what arrangements have been put in place Review Groups. Reviews carried out by the Eyes and for monitoring the performance of individual surgeons Vision Group include: in undertaking laser eye surgery; [99421] Excimer laser refractive surgery versus phakic intraocular lenses (2) if he will put in place arrangements for the for the correction of moderate to high myopia; publication annually of the success rates for individual Photorefractive keratectomy versus laser assisted in situ surgeons of their performance of laser eye surgery; keratomileusis for hyperopia correction; and [99422] Photorefractive keratectomy versus laser-assisted in-situ (3) if he will reassess the standards of training, keratomileusis for myopia. qualifications, experience and competence required by These reviews can be found on the Cochrane Library surgeons undertaking laser eye surgery. [99424] website at: www.thecochranelibrary.com/details/browseReviews/576735/ Mr Simon Burns: Corrective laser eye surgery is not Refractive-errors.html carried out routinely on the national health service other than for exceptional clinical reasons and these John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for will be very rare. Performance monitoring of individual Health (1) what steps his Department is taking to alert surgeons in the independent sector and publication of the general public to the potential risks involved in results will be for the relevant provider within the context laser eye surgery; [99420] of professional and regulatory requirements. (2) if he will consider the introduction of a legally A doctor undertaking laser eye surgery must be registered enforceable minimum period between the issuing of with the General Medical Council (GMC). All doctors patient consent to laser eye surgery and the operation. must work within the principles of ’Good Medical [99423] Practice’, the standards that a doctor must meet to ensure their continued registration with the GMC. Mr Simon Burns: Information for the public on laser The standards state that in providing care you must eye surgery, including information about risks associated recognise and work within the limits of your professional with the procedure, has been published through NHS competence and be competent when making diagnoses Choices. and when giving or arranging treatment. The Royal College of Ophthalmologists published a The Royal College of Ophthalmologists published Patients’ Guide to Excimer Laser Refractive Surgery updated standards for laser refractive surgery in July alongside its updated standards for laser refractive surgery 2011. in July 2011. The standards cover the appropriate experience and In addition, the National Institute for Health and qualifications of surgeons performing laser refractive Clinical Excellence published Interventional Procedure surgery. Guidance in March 2006. This guidance sets out that clinicians undertaking photorefractive (laser) eye surgery In addition, all providers of regulated activities under should ensure that patients understand the benefits and the Health and Social Care Act 2008 must be registered potential risks of the procedure. with the Care Quality Commission and meet the essential requirements of safety and quality. The article on NHS Choices provides links to the guidance from both the Royal College of Ophthalmologists The requirements include requirements for the provider and the National Institute’s guidance. to ensure they have the suitably qualified skilled and experienced staff necessary. The General Medical Council published Good Medical Practice on 12 November 2006. This guidance describes what is expected of all doctors registered with the General Practitioners General Medical Council. It includes guidance on communicating the risks involved with treatment and Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for that doctors must be satisfied that they have the consent Health what estimate he has made of how many extra or other valid authority before they provide treatment. GPs will be needed to compensate for time spent by 277W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 278W existing GPs on the proposed new commissioning Gynaecology: Medical Treatments system; and what provision he plans to make for their recruitment and training. [99487] Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what assessment he has made of the (a) effects of Mr Simon Burns: Under the proposed new the best practice tariffs for uterine fibroid embolisation commissioning system, the predominant focus of general and (b) other best practice tariffs in improving quality practitioners (GPs) will continue, to be on providing and best practice in the NHS; [98508] high quality primary care to patients. The number of (2) what assessment he has made of the (a) cost- GPs actively involved in commissioning will depend on effectiveness and (b) invasiveness of uterine fibroid decisions made by individual GPs and by clinical embolisation as a treatment for women diagnosed with commissioning groups (CCGs). However, most day-to-day fibroids. [98509] activities in support of commissioning are likely to be undertaken by staff employed by CCGs and by Mr Simon Burns: The National Institute for Health commissioning support services. A small number of and Clinical Excellence (NICE) published interventional GPs will hold leadership positions within CCGs. Each procedures guidance on uterine artery embolisation for GP practice will have a GP or other health professional fibroids in November 2010. NICE interventional procedures who represents the practice in dealings with the CCG. guidance makes recommendations on whether procedures Other GPs may be involved in the clinical design of are sufficiently safe and efficacious for use in clinical local services, building in some cases on existing GP practice, but does not provide guidance on whether they involvement in practice-based commissioning. represent a clinically and cost-effective use of national The number of GP trainees has increased in recent health service resources. It is for the NHS to take years and the Centre for Workforce Intelligence, the account of NICE guidance when determining treatment Government’s independent advisory body on health options. care work force planning, recommends that England A best practice tariff for uterine artery embolisation increases the number of entry level training posts by for fibroids was introduced in April 2011, with the aim 450 to around 3,250, phased over the next four years. of improving patient outcomes and experience by incentivising the use of this procedure where clinically Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for appropriate. Health what assessment he has made of the number of hours GPs will have to commit to commissioning work The Department’s Payment by Results team have under the proposals in the Health and Social Care Bill. commissioned an evaluation of best practice tariffs [99532] introduced from April 2010. The evaluation will provide structured qualitative and quantitative information Mr Simon Burns: Under the proposed new regarding the impact of best practice tariffs in order to commissioning system, the time spent by individual evaluate the effectiveness of using the national tariff as general practitioners (GPs) in relation to commissioning a lever to improve clinical quality. will depend on decisions made by GPs and by clinical The outcomes and recommendations of the evaluation commissioning groups (CCGs). GPs’ predominant focus are currently subject to peer review and we anticipate will continue to be on providing high quality primary that these will be published in spring 2012. In advance care to patients. Most day-to-day activities in support of the publication, we can confirm that we are receiving of commissioning are likely to be undertaken by staff positive feedback relating to how the best practice tariffs employed by CCGs and by commissioning support are helping to change existing practice and engage services. A small number of GPs will hold leadership clinicians and managers. positions within CCGs. Each GP practice will have a GP or other health professional who represents the Hospitals: Waiting Lists practice in dealings with the CCG. Other GPs may be involved in the clinical design of local services, building Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for in some cases on existing GP involvement in practice-based Health what recent estimate he has made of any change commissioning. in the number of people waiting more than six weeks for diagnostic tests in south Birmingham; for what General Practitioners: Bexley reasons any such change has taken place; and if he will make a statement. [99458] Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what representations he has received from GPs in the Mr Simon Burns: The information is shown in the London borough of Bexley on the Health and Social following table: Care Bill. [99308] Number of patients waiting six weeks or longer for one of the 15 key diagnostic tests at the end of each month in the last three years at South Birmingham Primary Care Trust(PCT) Mr Simon Burns: The Government have listened to a Patients waiting six Total patients wide range of representations throughout the passage Month weeks or more waiting of the Health and Social Care Bill, including from general practitioners (GPs). 2009 A search of the Department’s ministerial correspondence January 0 2,587 database has been unable to identify any correspondence February 0 2,543 received since 12 January 2011 from GPs in the London March 2 2,848 borough of Bexley about the Health and Social Care April 10 2,825 Bill. May 3 2,805 279W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 280W

Number of patients waiting six weeks or longer for one of the 15 key which would include a quality standard on Crohn’s diagnostic tests at the end of each month in the last three years at disease, and a final decision will be announced shortly.. South Birmingham Primary Care Trust(PCT) Through the NHS Outcomes Framework we will be Patients waiting six Total patients holding the national health service to account for improving Month weeks or more waiting the quality of life of people with long term conditions, June 2 2,769 including Crohn’s disease. July 3 2,887 August 4 2,640 Medical Equipment: EU Action September 2 2,564 October 5 2,882 Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for November 5 3,099 Health what discussions he has held with the European December 6 2,817 Commission on the potential effect of its proposed revision of medical device regulation on timely patient 2010 access to the full range of new and existing devices. January 9 2,996 [99294] February 10 3,243 March 8 3,325 Mr Simon Burns: Following the publication of a April 6 3,260 consultation on the proposed revision of the legal May 36 3,307 framework for medical devices in May 2008, the Medicines June 16 3,529 and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency has worked July 0 3,622 closely with the European Commission to influence the August 1 3,334 proposals for the revision exercise. This has included formal and informal discussions and exchanges at both September 4 3,173 official and ministerial level; most recently the Secretary October 2 3,574 of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member November 4 3,336 for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), met with December 3 3,174 Commissioner Dalli in February 2012 to discuss aspects of the revision. 2011 The overall aim of the Government for the revision is January 2 3,286 to maintain the strengths of the existing regulatory February 4 3,569 system, of which rapid access to market for new devices March 6 3,658 is a key aspect, while addressing the acknowledged April 1 3,363 weaknesses in the system. These include improving the May 15 3,765 standard and consistency of Notified Bodies, enhancing June 0 3,840 vigilance and post-market safety surveillance systems, July 10 3,566 and improving the consistency of implementation of August 18 3,521 medical device legislation across the European Union. September 11 3,742 Following the recent concerns about PIP implants, October 13 3,759 the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my noble November 17 3,955 Friend Earl Howe, and Sir Bruce Keogh, NHS Medical December 22 3,305 Director, are leading reviews that may identify areas where improvements could be made to the regulatory 2012 system. The outcomes of these reviews will feed into ongoing discussions with the European Commission. January 48 3,964 Source: Department of Health Unify2 data collection—DM01 Mortality Rates At the end of January 2012, the number of patients waiting over six weeks for one of the 15 key diagnostic Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for tests at South Birmingham PCT was 48 (1.2% of the Health (1) how many people from Newark were certified total waiting list). Nationally, at the end of January dead upon arrival at the accident and emergency department 2012, 1.5% of patients were waiting six weeks or more of (a) the Queens Medical Centre, (b) Nottingham for one of the 15 key diagnostic tests. City Hospital, (c) Kingsmill Hospital, (d) Lincoln Hospital and (e) Grantham Hospital in each of the last Inflammatory Bowel Disease three years; [99718] (2) how many people from Worksop were certified Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State dead upon arrival at the accident and emergency department for Health what recent steps his Department has taken of (a) Bassetlaw District General, (b) Sheffield Hallam to support (a) men, (b) women, (c) children and (d) Hospital and (c) Doncaster Royal Infirmary in each of older people with Crohn’s disease. [99927] the last three years; [99719] (3) how many people from Grantham were certified Paul Burstow: The National Institute for Health and dead upon arrival at the accident and emergency Clinical Excellence (NICE) is developing a clinical guideline department of (a) Grantham Hospital, (b) the for the treatment of Crohn’s disease with publication Queens Medical Centre, (c) Nottingham City Hospital expected in December 2012. We also .consulted last and (d) Lincoln Hospital in each of the last three summer on a proposed library of NICE quality standards years. [99720] 281W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 282W

Mr Simon Burns: The data are not available in the Lincoln Hospital and (v) Grantham Hospital, (b) patients format requested. However, data for all Dead on Arrival1 from Worksop admitted to (i) Bassetlaw District General, at accident and emergency (A&E)2 from primary care (ii) Sheffield Hallam Hospital and (iii) Doncaster Royal trust (PCT) of residence3 by hospital provider4 is shown Infirmary and (c) patients from Grantham admitted to in the following table: (i) Grantham Hospital, (ii) the Queens Medical Centre, (iii) Nottingham City Hospital and (iv) Lincoln Hospital. Hospital provider [99717] (A&E) PCT 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Nottingham Nottinghamshire 93 71 64 Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is not University County held by the Department. Hospitals NHS Trust Lincolnshire 00* NHS: Disclosure of Information Teaching Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State United Nottinghamshire 0**for Health what steps he is taking to ensure adequate Lincolnshire County Hospitals NHS protection for whistleblowers in the NHS. [99328] Trust Lincolnshire 14 15 8 Anne Milton: A number of measures have already Teaching been undertaken by this Government, which are designed to provide support to whistleblowers. Guidance has Sherwood Forest Nottinghamshire 61 81 30 been issued to national health service employing Hospitals NHS County Foundation Trust organisations providing advice on whistleblowing policies. A new contractual right to raise concerns has been implemented, with accompanying guidance explaining Doncaster and Bassetlaw 0 17 * Bassetlaw that all contracts of employment should cover this right. Hospitals NHS On 11 January the Chief Executive of the NHS wrote Foundation Trust to all NHS bodies to remind them of their obligations under the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 (PIDA) Sheffield Bassetlaw 0 0 0 and the support organisations should offer staff seeking Teaching Hospitals NHS to raise concerns in the public interest. Foundation Trust Changes to the NHS constitution in respect of 1 Dead on Arrival are categorised under Patient group (″70 Brought in Dead″). whistleblowing were also published on 8 March, along Within this field, 95.3% of entries are valid records ie excluding ‘Not known’. However, the majority of these 14,575,503 (or 89.7% of all records) are with a written ministerial statement given by the Secretary classified as either ‘other accident’ or ‘other’. of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member 2 A&E attendances include all attendances at major A&E departments, single for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), Official Report, specialty A&E departments, walk-in centres and minor injury units in England. It will not always represent the number of people attending A&E as column 71W. one person may attend on several different occasions. The Department has recontracted for the provision 3 The strategic health authority (SHA) or PCT containing the patient’s normal home address. This does not necessarily reflect where the patient was treated of an independent whistleblowing helpline for NHS as they may have travelled to another SHA/PCT for treatment. and social care staff. Should workers be unsure of how 4 Hospital providers can also include, treatment centres (TC). Normally, if to raise concerns or what protections they would receive, data is tabulated by healthcare provider, the figure for an NHS trust gives the activity of all the sites as one aggregated figure. However, in the case of those through PIDA, individuals can call the advice line and with embedded TC, this data is quoted separately. In these cases, ’-X’ is receive free legal advice. appended to the code for the rest of the trust, to remind users that the figures are for all sites of the trust excluding the treatment centres. The quality of TC We are continuing to explore options for further returns are such that data may not be complete. Some NHS trusts have not measures to support whistleblowers in the NHS. registered their TC as a separate site, and it is therefore not possible to identify their activity separately. Data from some independent sector providers, where the onus for arrangement of dataflows is on the commissioner, may be NHS: Pay missing. Care must be taken when using this data as the counts may be lower than true figures. Notes: Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 1. Data Quality It should be noted that the Department is the official source of A&E statistics what the average pay increase received by each individual through Quarterly Monitoring of Accident and Emergency (QMAE). While in the NHS was in each of the last three years. [99856] QMAE remains the official source of A&E attendance numbers and four hour wait target information, A&E HES is able to offer more detailed analysis. A&E HES coverage (74% of the QMAE attendances) has improved since the Mr Simon Burns: This information could be collected first publication of these experimental statistics in 2007-08 (62%), aligning only at a disproportionate cost. Information on the more closely to QMAE data. 2. Small Numbers national pay increases to basic pay for the last three To protect patient confidentiality, figures between 1 and 5 have been replaced years for NHS Very Senior Managers, NHS Medical with “*” (an asterisk). Where it was still possible to identify numbers from the staff and NHS non-medical staff employed under Agenda total an additional number (the next smallest) has been replaced. Source: for Change is shown in the following table. Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), Health and Social Care Information Centre NHS Very Senior Agenda for Change Mortality Rates: East Midlands Managers Medical staff non-medical staff

2009-10 1.5% no change 1.5% 2.4% Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for to bonus pot Health what the mortality rate was of (a) patients from Newark admitted to (i) the Queens Medical Centre, (ii) 2010-11 0% 0% consultants 2.25% (basic uplift) Nottingham City Hospital, (iii) Kingsmill Hospital, (iv) 283W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 284W

which companies can make commitments to support and enable NHS Very Senior Agenda for Change their customers to eat and drink fewer calories in order to help Managers Medical staff non-medical staff them maintain a healthy weight; and — Foundation house — Supporting the commitment to achieve a lasting legacy from officer 1s and 2s the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games, through significant 1% investment in the School Games and Change4Life Clubs in — Foundation house — schools. There will also be a Change4Life campaign in summer officer 1s in 2012 promoting healthy, active lifestyles in the context of the unhanded posts games. received a supplement of 5% Queen Mary’s Hospital Sidcup in addition to basic salary Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health — 1% other grades — what representations he has received on capital funding for Queen Mary’s Hospital in Sidcup. [99310] 2011-12 0% Pay freeze An uplift of £250 to Agenda for Mr Simon Burns: A search of the Department’s Change spine ministerial correspondence database has been unable to points 1-15 identify any correspondence received specifically relating In addition to any increase in basic pay, medical staff to this subject. This represents correspondence received and Agenda for Change staff have incremental progression. by the Department’s central correspondence team only. Consultants may also receive Clinical Excellence Awards. Proposals and a strategic outline case for a health At the end of each financial year Very Senior Managers and well-being campus at Queen Mary’s, Sidcup were are considered for a non-consolidated bonus payment. submitted to NHS London in October 2011. Since then local clinicians, commissioners, London borough of NHS: Private Sector Bexley and South London Healthcare NHS Trust have been working to further develop these plans. Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to his answer of 6 March 2012, Regulation Official Report, column 721W, on the NHS: private sector, what comparative cost-benefit analysis his Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Department has carried out on (a) an NHS provider Health how many regulations his Department repealed providing a service meeting NHS prices or tariffs and between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012; and what directing any profit back into the NHS and (b) a estimate he has made of the likely savings in each case. private sector provider providing a service meeting [97918] NHS prices or tariffs and taking any profit out of the NHS; and if he will make a statement. [99991] Mr Simon Burns: Information on the likely savings to those affected by each of the regulations revoked between Mr Simon Burns: The Government are not proposing 1 June 2011 and 31 January is not held centrally, therefore to increase the proportion of national health service to provide an estimate could be achieved only at services delivered by private providers and have not, disproportionate cost to the Department. therefore, undertaken any analysis to that end. Tobacco: Packaging Obesity Mark Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for (1) what steps he plans to take to ensure that respondents Health what steps the Government is taking to encourage to his Department’s consultation on plain packaging people to maintain a healthy weight through healthy for tobacco products declare any funding from the (a) eating and exercise. [99313] Government and (b) pharmaceutical industry; [99400] (2) what steps he plans to take to ensure that respondents Anne Milton: In October 2011, the Government published to his Department’s consultation on plain packaging “Healthy Lives, Healthy People: A call to action on for tobacco products declare (a) organisational membership obesity in England”, which sets out how obesity among of anti-smoking pressure groups, (b) organisational children and adults will be tackled in the new public funding from ASH and other anti-smoking pressure health and NHS systems. The document also sets out groups, (c) contracts for providing services to or receiving details of two new national ambitions for reversing the fees from anti-smoking pressure groups and (d) responses trend in the level of excess weight in children and adults generated through campaigns funded directly or indirectly by 2020. A copy of the “Call to action” has been by anti-smoking pressure groups. [99401] already placed in the Library. The Government are taking action to support progress Anne Milton: As set out in Chapter 10 of ‘Healthy towards these ambitions, for example through: Lives, Healthy People: A Tobacco Control Plan for England’, to fulfil our obligations as a party to the Change4Life, which aims to inspire a social movement to prevent people becoming overweight and obese. Current and World Health Organisation’s framework convention on planned projects for Change4Life are detailed within the Change4Life tobacco control, we will be asking all respondents to Social Marketing Strategy, published on 13 October, a copy of consultation exercises on tobacco control measures run which has already been placed in the Library; by the Department to disclose any links with, or funding The Public Health Responsibility Deal. Its Food Network has received from, the tobacco industry. We would encourage recently agreed the terms of a calorie reduction pledge under all respondents to provide an answer to this question in 285W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 286W the interests of transparency. There will be a free-text made of progress on the Coalition Agreement commitment response box for respondents to describe the nature of to continue public sector investment in carbon capture their link with the tobacco industry where relevant. and storage technology for four coal-fired power stations. However, where a response to a consultation is made [99592] on behalf of an organisation or business, respondents will be asked to indicate the nature of their business or Charles Hendry: The coalition commitment still stands. organisation in order that the Department can better The Department will be publishing a CCS Roadmap understand their views and the views of different groups. shortly, which will assess progress in the development of The only required information for consultation responses CCS for both the power and industrial sectors. will be the respondent’s name and contact details. This Following the decision on the Longannet project last information is requested so that the Department can October, the £l billion committed by the Government contact the respondent if further clarification of their remains available for the CCS programme. We will response is needed. launch a streamlined selection process for future CCS A copy of the Tobacco Control Plan has already been projects alongside publication of the Roadmap in the placed in the Library. coming weeks. The number of projects to be supported out of the new competition will depend on the proposals received and the assessment of which project or projects best meet the selection criteria. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Carbon Sequestration Electricity: Prices Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for made of the potential for industrial and power carbon Energy and Climate Change whether his Department capture and storage clusters in (a) Scotland, (b) England, has made a comparative assessment of the electricity (c) Wales and (d) Northern Ireland. [99596] cost differential for energy intensive industries in the UK to France and Germany; and if he will publish any Charles Hendry: The Government have supported a such assessment. [99544] number of studies into CCS cluster development in England, both directly and indirectly. Similar work in Charles Hendry: DECC publishes Eurostat data on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would be funded the electricity prices paid by industrial users of various through the appropriate devolved Administration. sizes in the EU 15 in its Quarterly Energy Prices publication, available online at: Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/ for Energy and Climate Change when he intends to prices/prices.aspx bring forward a strategy for the development of carbon UK electricity prices (inc. taxes) for extra large1 capture and storage. [99805] industrial users are higher than those of France and have been lower than those of Germany since the Charles Hendry: The Government remain firmly period January to June 2010 (see table). committed to supporting the commercialisation of CCS 1 and there are a number of promising projects proposed Extra large industrial electricity users are defined as those consuming 70,000 MWh to 150,000 MWh of electricity per year. in the UK. Many UK energy intensive users are above this threshold for We will publish a CCS Roadmap and launch a electricity. Data for users that consume more than 150,000 MWh streamlined selection process for future CCS projects in a year of electricity is available on the Eurostat website at: the coming weeks. http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/portal/page/portal/energy/ data/database Coal Fired Power Stations: Carbon Sequestration but only for a limited number of countries (including the UK but not France and Germany). It is therefore unclear whether the Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for same comparison in the table, which applies to users up to the Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has 150,000 MWh threshold will apply to larger users.

Average industrial electricity prices for extra large consumers (including taxes), p/kWh July to July to July to July to December January to December January to December January to December January to 2007 June 2008 2008 June 2009 2009 June 2010 2010 June 2011

UK 5.88 6.82 8.13 8.74 7.71 7.06 6.70 7.24 Germany 5.72 6.66 6.98 7.84 7.64 7.17 7.64 8.79 France 3.50 4.68 4.42 5.43 4.77 5.40 4.62 5.48

On 12 March, the Government launched a call for of the Exchequer, the right hon. Member for Tatton evidence on the impact of electricity costs on Energy (Mr Osborne’s), autumn statement for these industries. Intensive Industries in the UK to inform implementation Available online at: of the package of measures announced in the Chancellor http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/business-sectors/low-carbon- business-opportunities/energy-intensive-industries 287W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 288W

Energy Supply Following receipt of evidence from consumer groups on the behaviour of suppliers on back billing in the non Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for domestic sector over the last year, Ofgem asked the Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has industry to develop a set of self-regulatory standards to made of progress on the Coalition Agreement commitment address these issues. The standards are due to come into to instruct Ofgem to establish a security guarantee of effect in April this year and Ofgem will monitor their energy supplies. [99598] effect. In addition, Ofgem plan to carry out further analysis of the impact of limiting the back billing Charles Hendry: Since the formation of the coalition, period where a supplier is at fault. the Government have made excellent progress towards improving the future security of energy supplies, including Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for the commitment in the coalition agreement. Energy and Climate Change how many complaints In terms of electricity security, the Energy Act 2011 Ofgem has received from small businesses in relation introduced a requirement for Ofgem to assess future to back-billing by energy suppliers in each of the last supply of, and demand for, electricity and report to the 10 years. [99815] Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Charles Hendry: Ofgem does not deal with individual Davey), annually before 1 September 2012. It will cover consumer complaints. Over the last year Ofgem has the period of each of the four calendar years following received evidence, through complaints dealt with by publication of the report. The Secretary of State is then Consumer Direct and Consumer Focus, together with required to publish his assessment of the capacity needed information provided by business representative to meet electricity demand in Great Britain. organisations, relating to back billing of business customers. In addition, the Government have committed to legislate to introduce a capacity mechanism, in the form of a Energy: International Cooperation Capacity Market, to ensure we have adequate levels of reliable capacity in the future. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for In terms of gas security, the Energy Act 2011 conferred Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made on Ofgem a power to sharpen the commercial incentives of progress on the development of a European supergrid. on gas market participants to reduce the likelihood, [99375] duration or severity of a gas supply emergency. Ofgem is now considering potential use of the power Charles Hendry: The term “supergrid” is used to refer through their ongoing Gas Security Significant Code to a number of different visions, ranging from a more Review. DECC has also asked Ofgem to consider the integrated offshore grid in the seas around the UK, to a case for further measures to ensure the security of our network of large interconnectors linking low carbon gas supplies, and asked them to produce a report by generation with centres of demand across the EU. The May 2012. Government are engaged in a number of work programmes which are looking at the issues raised by such developments. Energy: Billing We are considering the costs, benefits and technical challenges of a more integrated offshore grid in the Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for north and Irish seas, as part of the North Seas Countries’ Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Offshore Grid Initiative, which was launched in December of the number of households that have been back- 2010. A similar assessment is being made of transmission billed by their energy supplier in each of the last five and generation developments which might facilitate the years. [99746] cost-effective exploitation of the renewables potential of the British Islands and Ireland under the All Islands Charles Hendry: DECC does not hold any information Approach, which was agreed at the British Irish Council on customers who have been back billed by their energy summit in June 2011. The initial results of this work are supplier. expected in early 2013. Since 2007, energy suppliers have not been able to At the UK-Nordic-Baltic summit in January 2011 require payment beyond a year from the date of a the Prime Minister launched an initiative to promote subsequent bill if they are at fault for not billing a low-carbon growth across the region. Further domestic customer. interconnection, possibly linking renewable energy sources, is a key component of this vision. The Government Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for welcomes the many interconnection projects which Energy and Climate Change how many investigations developers are currently investigating with countries Ofgem has undertaken on back-billing of (a) domestic such as Norway, Iceland and France. Such interconnections customers and (b) small businesses by energy suppliers would be an important element in the modular development in each of the last 10 years. [99814] of any future European “supergrid”. And late last year the Commission published proposals for a regulation to Charles Hendry: Ofgem has not undertaken a formal facilitate investment in priority energy infrastructure investigation specifically about back billing of domestic across the EU, including an offshore grid in the North, or non domestic customers. Irish and Baltic seas and the first electricity “highways”, Since 2007, energy suppliers have not been able to designed to transmit high-voltage power over long distances require payment beyond a year from the date of a to link up low-carbon energy sources. Any developments subsequent bill if they are at fault for not billing their are likely to take place in an incremental manner over a domestic customers. period of years. 289W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 290W

Energy: Prices Following the accident at Fukushima the Office for Nuclear Regulation provided authoritative advice on Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy nuclear aspects throughout the crisis and utilised resources and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the to look at the lessons learned from the accident. This cost of energy to high-energy firms in the UK; and included the reprioritisation of staff to work with the what comparison he has made with similar costs in (a) industry to reassess safety arrangements. It is estimated Germany, (b) France, (c) the US, (d) China, (e) that since the incident, the resources utilised amount to Brazil and (f) Japan. [99724] the equivalent of 11.5 staff years. (Total staffing within ONR is c.450) Costs for such activity are recovered from the industry through HSE’s normal cost recovery Charles Hendry: DECC publishes energy prices data processes. for the UK and other EU 15 and G7 countries from Eurostat (for various size-bands) and the IEA (average Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy industrial prices) in its “Quarterly Energy Prices” and Climate Change what information his Department publication, available online at: holds on proposals put to site stakeholder groups at http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/publications/ civil nuclear sites to extend nuclear accident evacuation prices/prices.aspx zones at UK nuclear installations following the Comparisons using this data show average UK gas accident at Fukushima in March 2011. [99006] prices (inc. taxes) for industrial users in 2010 were higher than those of the US but below those of Germany, Charles Hendry: DECC does not hold information France and Brazil1. Gas price data for Japan is unavailable on proposals put to site stakeholder groups at civil for the period 2008-10 but average Japanese gas prices nuclear sites. for industrial users have historically been higher than Offshore Industry: Safety the UK’s. Average UK electricity prices (inc. taxes) for industrial users in 2010 were higher than those for the Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for US and France but lower than those for Germany, Energy and Climate Change when he next plans to Japan and Brazil. Consistent gas and electricity price meet the European Commission to discuss draft EU data for industrial users in China are currently unavailable. regulations on the offshore safety regime. [99535] 1 Brazil data are not published in Quarterly Energy Prices but are available directly via the IEA’s Energy Prices and Taxes publication, Charles Hendry: The Secretary of State for Energy which includes data for 2011. and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Member On 12 March, the Government launched a call for for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), spoke to the evidence on the impact of electricity costs on Energy Energy Commissioner about this and other issues on Intensive Industries in the UK to inform implementation 28 February. They have agreed to meet as soon as is of the package of measures announced in the Chancellor convenient for further discussions but as yet no date has of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for been set. Tatton (Mr Osborne’s), autumn statement for these Regulation industries. Available online at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/business-sectors/low-carbon- Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for business-opportunities/energy-intensive-industries Energy and Climate Change how many regulations his Department repealed between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012; and what estimate he has made of the Nuclear Power Stations: Safety likely savings in each case. [97922]

Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Charles Hendry: Between 1 June 2011 and 31 January and Climate Change what information his Department 2012 the Department of Energy and Climate Change holds on the level of additional resource allocated by (DECC) repealed the following: the nuclear regulators for nuclear safety reassessments Exemption orders under the Radioactive Substances following the nuclear accident at Fukushima in March Act 1993. These are set out as follows: last year; and whether any such expenditure has been The Radioactive Substances (Exhibitions) Exemption Order recovered from nuclear operators. [99004] 1962 The Radioactive Substances (Phosphatic Substances, Rare Earths Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply on behalf etc.) Exemption Order 1962 of the Department for Work and Pensions. The Radioactive Substances (Lead) Exemption Order 1962 On 14 March 2011, the Secretary of State for Energy The Radioactive Substances (Uranium and Thorium) Exemption and Climate Change asked HM Chief Inspector of Order 1962 Nuclear Installations to examine the circumstances of The Radioactive Substances (Prepared Uranium and Thorium the Fukushima accident to see what lessons could be Compounds) Exemption Order 1962 learnt to enhance the safety of the UK nuclear industry. The Radioactive Substances (Geological Specimens) Exemption Order 1962 Subsequently, on 24 March 2011, the European Council (EC) requested a review of safety at all European The Radioactive Substances (Waste Closed Sources) Exemption Order 1963 nuclear power plants, known as the Stress Tests. The Radioactive Substances (Schools etc.) Exemption Order As a result, resources were re-prioritised, within the 1963 Office for Nuclear Regulation (ONR) for post Fukushima The Radioactive Substances (Precipitated Phosphate) Exemption nuclear safety related work, which included applying Order 1963 the Stress Test process to all UK licensed nuclear The Radioactive Substances (Electronic Valves) Exemption installations. Order 1967 291W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 292W

The Radioactive Substances (Smoke Detectors) Exemption Charles Hendry: In order to meet our 2020 renewable Order 1980 energy target, we will need to boost deployment across The Radioactive Substances (Gaseous Tritium Light Devices) the UK. The Renewable Energy Roadmap (published Exemption Order 1985 July 2011) sets out a UK-wide targeted plan of actions The Radioactive Substances (Luminous Articles) Exemption for eight key technologies in order to meet our renewable Order 1985 energy target. The Radioactive Substances (Substances of Low Activity) There are no plans to undertake an audit of the total Exemption Order 1986 level of generating capacity of each type of renewable The Radioactive Substances (Hospitals) Exemption Order 1990 energy in each parliamentary constituency. However, The Radioactive Substances (Smoke Detectors) Exemption information on the current installed renewable energy (Amendment) Order 1991 generating capacity (as well as projects in planning and The Radioactive Substances (Substances of Low Activity) in construction) for each region in the UK can be found Exemption (Amendment) Order 1992 on the DECC website: The Radioactive Substances (Hospitals) Exemption (Amendment) https://restats.decc.gov.uk/cms/welcome-to-the-restats-web- Order 1995 site The Radioactive Substances (Clocks and Watches) (England In addition, to help ensure a robust evidence base to and Wales) Regulations 2001 support the deployment of renewable energy, DECC The Radioactive Substances (Natural Gas) Exemption Order published a renewable and low-carbon capacity assessment 2002 methodology in October 2010. The evidence produced The Radioactive Substances (Testing Instruments) Exemption by applying the methodology will help to support local (England and Wales) Order 2006 authorities and communities to make the most of These regulations were repealed by the Environmental opportunities for renewable energy deployment in their Permitting (England and Wales) Amendment Regulations areas. 2011. This secondary legislation saved business £1.1 Renewable Energy: EU Action million, as validated by the Regulatory Policy Committee (RPC). Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Within the specified period, DECC also repealed the and Climate Change when he last met the European following regulation with minimal or no identifiable Commissioner for Energy to discuss the NER 300 savings: programme. [99526] Regulation 2 of the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations. This secondary legislation Charles Hendry: The Secretary of State for Energy was repealed by the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Nitrous Oxide) Regulations 2011 and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), has not yet met The following primary legislation with minimal or no Commissioner Oettinger since taking up post. They identifiable savings will be repealed by the Energy Act have spoken by telephone, but not about the NER as 2011 when the relevant provisions come into force. the commissioner does not have direct responsibility for Section 217 of the Housing Act 2004 the NER 300 programme. Section 1e of the Sustainability Act 2003 DECC Ministers and officials are in regular contact Section 2 of the Sustainability Act 2003 with their counterparts in the European Commission Home Energy Conservation Act 1995 in respect of Scotland on a range of issues, including the NER 300 programme. and Wales We are continuing our efforts to identify opportunities Wind Power to eliminate any unnecessary burdensome regulation via the Department’s Energy themed ’Red Tape Challenge’. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy In addition to these repeals, DECC also saved business and Climate Change if he will estimate the proportion an additional £1.4 million by amending existing regulations of wind turbines that have auxiliary power installed to by: assist with their operation; and if he will estimate the proportion of those auxiliary power supplies that are Raising the threshold for energy supplier participation in the provided by diesel engines. [99457] Carbon Emission Reduction Target (CERT) and the Community Energy Saving Programme (CESP). This brought about significant benefits for smaller suppliers Charles Hendry: Only genuine renewable electricity generation will be subsidised through either the Renewables Reforming current legislation on third party access to upstream petroleum infrastructure. These changes will facilitate timely Obligation or Feed-in Tariffs mechanism and count development of oil and gas resources towards meeting our renewable energy target. These measures were included in DECC’s second It is for renewable energy companies to choose the Statement of New Regulation. most appropriate turbine models for individual sites. Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Renewable Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the cost of switching wind turbines off due to high wind. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy [99721] and Climate Change if he will undertake an audit of the total level of generating capacity of each type of Charles Hendry: The Government have commissioned renewable energy in each parliamentary constituency. estimates of the overall levelised costs of wind as reported [99254] in Arup (2011): 293W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 294W

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/ provision of IAC across all local delivery units in Wales. cons_ro_review/cons_ro_review.aspx IAC remains available as a sentencing option for all These are based on assumed average load factors criminal courts in Wales and this will continue to be the which take into account periods when wind turbines do case for the foreseeable future. not generate including due to high winds. Beyond this, the costs of switching off wind turbines fall to scheme Counterfeit Manufacturing: Convictions owners and so therefore does the task of estimating them. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The Renewables Obligation (RO) and Feed in Tariff how many people have been convicted in a UK court (FIT) are the Government’s main instruments for for counterfeiting offences involving the euro in each of incentivising renewable electricity.Both are generation-based the last 10 years. [99466] subsidies meaning support is granted for each unit of electricity actually generated. A wind farm will therefore Mr Blunt: The number of offenders convicted at all only receive support when it generates. courts in England and Wales for offences under the Protection of the Euro Against Counterfeiting Regulations 2001, in each year between their commencement on 1 January 2002 and 2010 (latest currently available) can JUSTICE be viewed in the following table. Alternatives to Prison: Wales Data relating to offences of counterfeiting collected centrally by the Ministry of Justice and held on the Court Proceedings Database do not enable those Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for counterfeiting offences relating to euro currency to be Justice what steps he is taking to extend the Intensive separately identified from those involving other currencies. Alternative to Custody pilot schemes in South Wales and Dyfed-Powys to other parts of Wales. [98510] Offences committed in Scotland and Northern Ireland are matters for the Scottish Government and Mr Blunt: The Intensive Alternatives to Custody the Northern Ireland Office respectively. (IAC) pilot programme ran from 2008-09 to 2010-11. Annual court proceedings data for 2011 are planned Since the pilot ended Wales Probation have mainstreamed for publication in May 2012.

Offenders1 found guilty at all courts in England and Wales of offences under the Protection of the Euro Against Counterfeiting Regulations 20012 in each year between 2001 and 20103—England and Wales Offenders 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 20084 2009 2010

Offenders n/a100022000 found guilty n/a = Not applicable 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 The Protection of the Euro Against Counterfeiting Regulations came into force on 1 January 2002. It includes the following offences: Failure to withdraw from circulation a euro note or coin which is believed to be counterfeit, and Failure to hand over a euro note or coin received believing it to be counterfeit. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April. July and August 2008. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services within the Ministry of Justice.

Courts: Video Recordings Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) procures in accordance with UK and EU legislation and supports Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the Department for the Environment Food and Rural what safeguards he plans to put in place to ensure that Affairs (DEFRA) in achieving compliance with the filming of court proceedings presents balanced Government Buying Standards (GBS) for Food and reporting. [99261] Catering. The Department’s suppliers are obligated to source in line with DEFRA policy on GBS subject to Mr Kenneth Clarke: I will not permit our courts to no overall increase in costs and meeting UK or equivalent become theatre. Victims, witnesses, defendants and jurors standards of production to ensure supply achieves value will not be filmed, and existing reporting restrictions for money. will apply. The judge will always have discretion to stop (a) In line with the GBS Food and Catering Services filming in each case. overarching commitments: Departmental Food 1. Production standards—100% of food procured by the Department meets UK or equivalent standards of production. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 2. Origin of meat and dairy—in line with the industry principles Justice what proportion of food procured by his Department on country of origin information, food and catering suppliers are (a) meets the Government Buying Standards for Food able to indicate the origin of all meat, meat products and dairy and Catering and (b) is from British sources. [99799] products when the information is requested by the consumer. 295W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 296W

Examples where the Department has achieved the The following list demonstrates that 101 prisons in mandatory food and catering services standards subject England and Wales reported no drug misuse, as measured to no overall increase in costs or where there is a legal by random MDT, in at least one month of the 2010-11 requirement to do so include the following: financial year. (1) Animal welfare: 100% of eggs (in shell) sourced from Prisons that recorded no positive random MDT results in systems that do not use conventional cages. If from a caged at least one month in 2010-11. system, enriched cages are used. Albany (2) Fish: 100% seafood procured compliant with sustainability Ashfield standards indicated by Marine Conservation Society’s or Marine Stewardship Councils list of fish to eat. Ashwell (3) Recycling: There is a mandatory agreement for prisons Askham Grange which account for 99.6% of direct food spend within the Department Aylesbury for the disposal of waste oils and fats through the controlled Bedford waste regulations. Blantyre House (4) All new contracts are tendered to reflect GBS policy where possible, subject to no overall increase in costs and meeting UK Blundeston or equivalent standards of production. Brinsford (b) The Department and its contractors continue to Bronzefield look for opportunities to enable domestic producers to Buckley Hall compete for supply contracts while seeking to achieve Bullwood Hall value for money. The Department encourages its suppliers Bure to procure food from UK producers where possible. Camp Hill The proportion of food (by value) purchased by MoJ Canterbury NOMS that was produced in the UK for the financial Cardiff year 2010-11 is 44% which is equivalent to £20 million per annum. Castington Notes: Chelmsford Coldingley 1. The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) covers MOJ HQ and Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) for contracted Dartmoor out food service provision. Figures for 2010-11 are currently not Deerbolt available due to the contract being awarded in late 2010. Consolidated Dorchester figures for 2010-11 and 2011-12 are due to be completed at the end of this financial year. Downview 2. National Offender Management Services figures relate to the Drake Hall actual percentage of spend (value) on direct food costs for providing East Sutton Park food to the prison population in England and Wales. Edmonds Hill Erlestoke Drugs: Illegal Everthorpe Exeter Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Featherstone how many prisons have been free from the use of illegal Feltham drugs for a 12 month period in the latest period for Foston Hall which figures are available. [99002] Frankland Full Sutton Mr Blunt: Very high numbers report a drug problem prior to prison, 71% or prisoners had used drugs prior Garth to custody and 55% of new prisoners report having a Gartree serious drug problem. Potentially this creates a significant Glen Parva demand for drugs in prison. Gloucester Prisons have achieved considerable success in reducing Grendon the level of drug misuse against a background of a Haverigg continuing high demand for drugs. Drug misuse as High Down measured by random mandatory drug testing (MDT) has fallen 71% since 1996-97. Highpoint Hindley MDT, which runs to standardised procedures across prisons, has three main aims, one of which is to supply Hollesley Bay detailed information on patterns of drugs-misuse in Holloway prisons and is used by the National Offender Management Huntercombe Service to measure the level of drug misuse in prisons. Isis A single episode of drug misuse over a defined period, Kennet strictly interpreted, would deprive a prison of drug free Kingston status. Prisons can perform very well in keeping drugs Kirkham out of prison but technically not be drug free. Over the 2010-11 financial year, two prisons in England and Kirklevington Wales reported no drug misuse as measured by random Lancaster MDT. Lancaster Farms 297W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 298W

Latchmere House (2) how many scheduled drugs tests did not take Lewes place for people on drug rehabilitation requirements in Leyhill each of the last three years; [99853] Littlehey (3) what proportion of people serving a drug Long Lartin rehabilitation requirement, who failed (a) one drug Low Newton test, (b) two drug tests, (c) three drug tests and (d) Maidstone four or more drug tests were sent to prison in each of Moorland the last three years. [99854] Moorland Open Mr Blunt: Information on the longest period without Morton Hall someone on a drug rehabilitation requirement having a Mount drugs test, the number of scheduled drug tests that did New Hall not take place, and the proportion of people serving a North Sea Camp drug rehabilitation requirement who fail a drug test and Northallerton are sent to prison is not held centrally. This could be Norwich obtained only at disproportionate cost by retrieving, Onley analysing and collating data held locally on offender Pare records and local data systems. Parkhurst European Court of Human Rights Peterborough Female Portland Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Preston what his policy is on implementing decisions of the Reading European Court of Human Rights applicable to the Risley UK. [99882] Rochester Rye Hill Mr Djanogly: The UK is a party to the European Send Convention on Human Rights and is obliged to comply with judgments of the European Court of Human Shepton Mallet Rights (ECtHR) as a matter of international law. Article Shewsbury 46(1) of the Convention, states: “The High Contracting Spring Hill Parties undertake to abide by the final judgment of the Stafford Court in any case to which they are parties”. Standford Hill Stocken Fraud: EU Law Stoke Heath Styal Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Sudbury whether the UK has enacted the provisions of EU Council Framework Decision 2001/413/JHA of Swaleside 28 May 2001, on combating fraud and counterfeiting Swinfen Hall of non-cash means of payment; and what evaluation Thorn Cross has been made of the effectiveness of the Decision in Usk/Prescoed reducing fraud. [99990] Verne Wakefield Mr Kenneth Clarke: The provisions of EU council Warren Hill Framework Decision 2001/413/JHA of 28 May 2001 on Werrington combating fraud and counterfeiting of non-cash means Wetherby of payment have been implemented in UK law. Whatton The Government have not made any assessment of Whitemoor the effectiveness of the Framework Decision. Winchester Knives: Crime Wymott The preceding list has been drawn from live administrative Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for data systems which may be amended at any time. Although Justice how many reported incidents of crime involving care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, a knife there were in (a) Leeds North West the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent constituency, (b) the city of Leeds and (c) England in in any large scale recording system. The data are not each of the last five years; and what steps he is taking subject to audit. to reduce the incidence of such knife crime. [98401]

Drugs: Testing Nick Herbert: Data for selected offences involving the use of a knife or sharp instrument are collected by Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Office at police force area level only, so data Justice (1) what the longest period is that someone on a are not available for Leeds North West constituency or drug rehabilitation requirement has gone without the city of Leeds. Data for these selected offences are having a drugs test in each of the last three years; provided for West Yorkshire police force as well as [99848] England in the table. 299W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 300W

Data for 2007-08 are not comparable with those Prisons: Employment shown for later years due to an expansion in the number of offences covered. In 2007-08 the offences covered are Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice homicide, attempted murder, grievous bodily harm (GBH) what steps he is taking to enable prisoners to work. with intent, GBH without intent and robbery. In 2008-09 [99265] the coverage was expanded to include actual bodily harm (ABH), threats to kill, sexual assault and rape offences. Mr Blunt: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 13 March 2012, Official Report; column 119, Knife crime is wholly unacceptable. It causes misery by the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for for victims and is often connected to the kind of gang Justice, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member violence that can wreck whole communities. for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke). We will ensure an effective response to knife crime: the Government’s position is clear; any adult who commits Prisons: Visits a crime using a knife can expect to be sent to prison and serious offenders can expect a long sentence; and, for young offenders, imprisonment is always available and Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for will also be appropriate for serious offences. Justice (1) what the purpose of the Assisted Prison Visits Scheme is; [99981] The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders (LASPO) Bill currently in the Lords includes a new (2) what assessment he has made of the benefits to offence of carrying a knife or offensive weapon in a the public of financially assisting the spouses of convicted public place or school if it is then used to threaten and criminals to visit them in prison; [99983] endanger another with a minimum mandatory sentence (3)what the cost to the public purse was of the for over 18 years old of six months, and a four months Assisted Prison Visits Scheme in each of the last three Detention and Training Order for those aged 16 and 17. years. [99984] If passed, this will send a clear message to those who possess a knife to threaten and endanger that they can Mr Blunt: The Assisted Prison Visits Scheme provides expect to face prison. financial help with travel expenses to prisoners’ close Table A: Number of selected violent and sexual offences1 involving a relatives and partners who are on a defined benefit and knife or sharp instrument recorded by West Yorkshire police force and receive a low income. The scheme’s purpose is to contribute police forces in England, 2007-08 to 2010-11 to reducing reoffending and resettlement strategies by Area 2007-082 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 helping to ensure that family ties are maintained. The Ministry of Justice (Mo J) actively encourage prisoners West Yorkshire 941 1,303 1,335 1,322 3 to maintain outside contacts and meaningful family England 24,620 35,296 32,964 31,972 ties. Visits are crucial to sustaining relationships with England (excl. West 21,416 31,562 29,727 28,928 Midlands)4 close relatives, partners and friends. 1 Police recorded knife and sharp instrument offences data are submitted The MoJ Resettlement Survey 2008 showed that via an additional special collection. Other offences exist that are not offenders could be 39% less likely to reoffend if they shown in this table that may include the use of a knife or sharp had family visits while in custody. Lord Justice Woolf’s instrument. report of 1991 made a recommendation that prisoners 2 The collection was expanded in 2008-09 to also include actual bodily harm (ABH), threats to kill, sexual assault and rape offences. Therefore should have better prospects of maintaining their links figures are not comparable with those offences recorded in 2007-08. with families through more visits and in his follow-up 3 Figures for England include unbroken bottle and glass offences, report exactly 10 years later makes specific reference to which are outside the scope of this special collection, for Surrey and Assisted Prisons Visits and described it as “admirable”. Sussex police. As such, data for these forces are not directly comparable to data for other forces. A recent report commissioned by the EU entitled 4 Data are shown excluding West Midlands as West Midlands included ‘Children of Imprisoned Parents’ highlighted the unbroken bottle and glass offences in their returns until April 2010 importance of providing financial assistance to families but now exclude these offences in line with other forces. As such, their of prisoners. 2010-11 data are not comparable with their data for earlier years. Note: The cost of the Assisted Prison Visits Scheme in the Homicide figures as at 18 October 2011; figures are subject to revision last three financial years was: as cases are dealt with by the police and by the courts, or as further information becomes available. £

2010-11 2,201,000 2009-10 2,343,000 Members: Correspondence 2008-09 2,171,000

Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Stalking Justice when he plans to answer the letter sent to the Attorney-General by the right hon. Member for John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Manchester, Gorton on 26 January, with regard to Mr J. Justice (1) how many victims of stalking have been Crain, and transferred to his Department. [99748] interviewed by members of the Death and Violence Team in his Department in the last 12 months; [98656] Mr Kenneth Clarke: The letter was wrongly addressed (2) what the functions and duties are of his Department’s to the Attorney-General. I have now replied. Death and Violence Team. [98657] 301W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 302W

Mr Blunt: The Criminal Law and Legal Policy Unit, Table 1: Young people in custody attached to Welsh Youth Offending Teams by including the Death and Violence Team, advise Ministers establishment type, May 2005 - December 2011. Blaenau, Gwent and Bridgend Cardiff in relation to various aspects of civil and criminal law Caerphilly policy including homicide and offences against the person. Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI The Ministry of Justice does not ‘interview’ victims of any criminal offences; officials do however attend 2006 meetings and workshops at which victims’ interests and Jan2080054021 views are shared, as well as those of other stakeholders. Feb1060044118 In relation to stalking there has also been a recent Mar1080055117 Government consultation on how we can protect victims Apr2160045119 of stalking more effectively. We have been looking May3150033123 carefully at the responses to that consultation—many of Jun31110043127 which were submitted by victims and groups that represent Jul31130163221 their interests. As a result of the consultation, we have Aug31130092222 introduced provisions to create two new offences, one of Sep21121082327 stalking and one of stalking with fear of violence, and Oct 2 1 6 1 1 12 1 3 26 have committed to providing better training for the Nov311011100325 police and probation service and courts, to make sure Dec3161161219 that stalking is taken seriously. 2007 Young Offenders: Wales Jan2141081226 Feb2061071130 Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for Mar2061081128 Justice how many juvenile offenders from each local Apr2061071126 authority area in Wales have been held in a (a) secure May 2 0 7 0 0 10 3 1 30 children’s home, (b) secure training centre and (c) Jun 3 0 9 0 0 10 2 1 29 young offender institution in each month since May Jul 1 0 9 0 0 12 2 0 28 2005. [98506] Aug1291091123 Sep0181072226 Mr Blunt: The following table shows the number of Oct01110063222 juvenile offenders (aged 10 to 17) either sentenced or Nov32110073323 remanded in custody attached to Welsh YouthOffending Dec31110043124 Teams who have been held in a (a) secure children’s home, (b) secure training centre and (c) under 18 2008 young offender institution by month from May 2005 to Jan12111073117 December 2011. This is based upon monthly snapshot Feb131410123119 data. Therefore one young person who is serving more Mar13160091120 than one month in custody may be shown in more than Apr231100101127 one month in the table. Data from April 2011 onwards May221000131227 are provisional and will be finalised when the 2011-12 Jun 3 3 8 0 0 12 0 2 30 Annual Youth Justice Statistics are published in 2013. Jul3361091328 These data have been provided by the Youth Justice Aug 2 2 8 1 0 10 1 2 26 Board (YJB). The YJB does not hold data at local Sep2260070122 authority level. However, it does hold data down to Oct2260070024 youth offending team area, some of which cover more Nov3260080023 than one local authority area. Dec2260061029 These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording 2009 system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Jan2380041029 and processing and can be subject to change over time. Feb1371051028 Table 1: Young people in custody attached to Welsh Youth Offending Teams by Mar1361030030 establishment type, May 2005 - December 2011. Apr2241041032 Blaenau, Gwent and Bridgend Cardiff May0241051131 Caerphilly Jun0221072133 Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI Jul0242151135 2005 Aug1242242032 Sep2242253034 May3050052526 Oct2232252030 Jun3040092427 Nov3232272020 Jul 3 0 9 0 0 14 2 4 26 Dec4221092015 Aug 3 0 9 0 0 12 1 2 21 Sep 4 0 9 0 0 10 1 0 19 Oct30600810202010 Nov2080053023Jan 1 1 4 1 0 11 6 1 17 Dec2080053017Feb 1 1 6 1 0 11 5 1 18 Mar1151074123 303W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 304W

Table 1: Young people in custody attached to Welsh Youth Offending Teams by establishment type, May 2005 - December 2011. Carmarthenshire Ceredigion Conwy and Denbighshire Blaenau, Gwent and Bridgend Cardiff Caerphilly Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI Sep1080032011 Apr2142063020Oct1080031010 May2132071021Nov107003009 Jun1142061014Dec2050010010 Jul1142061012 Aug101021320132008 Sep1092142116Jan0050010112 Oct1084051015Feb0030010110 Nov2074052111Mar0050000012 Dec2074052110Apr0030000012 May0060000011 2011 Jun006000008 Jan204414206Jul006000006 Feb214412107Aug007000009 Mar2143111013Sep0050000013 Apr2153122013Oct0070000014 May1152123016Nov0060000013 Jun1162133013Dec004002108 Jul0162031016 Aug00810420172009 Sep0051031015Jan005002106 Oct0061021011Feb007002003 Nov0061011011Mar009000005 Dec0051022011Apr00110000011 May108000006 Carmarthenshire Ceredigion Conwy and Jun108001006 Denbighshire Jul1011001005 Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI Aug009001004 2005 Sep009001006 Oct007001016 May1030001012 Nov006001115 Jun0030002010 Jul0030001010Dec107000103 Aug0020002011 Sep00400020102010 Oct0040013013Jan004000207 Nov0030013011Feb003000117 Dec103001317 Mar015000104 Apr104000105 2006 May203000105 Jan104100115Jun104000004 Feb105100109Jul104000015 Mar104000205Aug106000014 Apr005000208Sep105000013 May007100217Oct105001104 Jun009100217Nov106002106 Jul0061012110 Dec108002114 Aug1080014113 Sep11100004111 2011 Oct2060003111 Nov0040042116Jan106000112 Dec0050072111Feb105000112 Mar002001101 2007 Apr003000102 May106000002 Jan20502131110 Feb20402121010Jun108001012 Mar 1 0 6 0 4 11 2 0 12 Jul106002012 Apr008057109Aug206001012 May006025009Sep104001311 Jun0040130010Oct102000402 Jul005021209Nov001000307 Aug1080121012Dec102000308 305W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 306W

Flintshire Gwynedd Mon Merthyr Tydfil Flintshire Gwynedd Mon Merthyr Tydfil Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI

2005 Jul2221325012 Aug0131315011 May40140131010 Sep005123407 Jun4012126008 Oct005034408 Jul4014126007 Nov005021419 Aug2114127009 Dec105013218 Sep3216108006 Oct1114106003 2010 Nov1111105007 Dec1110104009Jan104014218 Feb114011119 Mar1030113010 2006 Apr002112309 Jan2213007106May012102309 Feb1112006106Jun0101012010 Mar1212004105Jul0201022010 Apr0316003206Aug012212207 May0313115205Sep012113009 Jun0213317105Oct012111009 Jul1114416108Nov011202017 Aug1218409104Dec012203115 Sep 1 2 13 3 0 10 0 0 6 Oct028207006 2011 Nov1281111007 Jan001204116 Dec105305003 Feb001305216 Mar003302202 2007 Apr012303206 Jan007106004May001105104 Feb008105002Jun001004104 Mar028106005Jul100005002 Apr025108004Aug101003103 May006007102Sep014002103 Jun006117102Oct016002003 Jul1050110102Nov014027103 Aug015009104Dec102025103 Sep015007105 Oct015006008 Monmouthshire and Neath Port Talbot Newport Nov016005008 Torfaen Dec119005004Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI

2005 2008 May00600 3 4215 Jan118001006Jun00500 1 5212 Feb115001005Jul10500 1 4314 Mar033102004Aug10400 1 4215 Apr020106004Sep 1 0 4 0 0 2 4 2 18 May021107005Oct 1 0 5 0 0 4 3 2 20 Jun124003007Nov00300 5 1220 Jul124003109Dec 0 0 4 0 0 3 1 2 14 Aug1030062210 Sep1020073292006 Oct104008309Jan00400 4 2216 Nov105004108Feb00300 4 1115 Dec106004207Mar 0 0 3 0 0 6 2 1 16 Apr00300 7 2014 May00400 7 2011 2009 Jun00600 6 2114 Jan205014206 Jul00500 4 2116 Feb306013308Aug00500 4 2113 Mar3060233011Sep 2 0 4 0 0 3 2 1 15 Apr2150135112Oct 2 0 3 0 0 4 2 1 15 May2160135114Nov10500 6 2115 Jun2050215110Dec 1 0 5 0 0 4 2 1 15 307W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 308W

Monmouthshire and Neath Port Talbot Newport Monmouthshire and Neath Port Talbot Newport Torfaen Torfaen Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI

Apr00220 2 406 2007 May00130 2 5011 Jun00120 0 5010 Jan00410 3 3011 Feb00510 5 1010Jul00320 0 409 Mar 0 0 2 3 0 4 1 0 9 Aug00310 0 307 Apr00330 4 2011Sep 0 0 1 1 0 0 2 0 7 May00730 5 2011Oct 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 8 Jun00740 5 207Nov10100 0 109 Jul20740 6 107Dec 1 0 2 0 0 0 2 0 7 Aug30540 5 207 Sep 2 1 4 4 0 4 2 0 11 Pembrokeshire Powys Rhondda Cynon Oct 1 1 3 4 0 5 2 0 8 Taff Nov10431 6 206Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI

Dec 1 0 4 1 0 6 1 0 6 2005 May0 0 2 015517 2008 Jun0 0 2 0144011 Jan10330 4 007Jul0 0 2 0114012 Feb10330 4 008Aug0 0 3 0031010 Mar 1 0 4 3 0 3 0 0 5 Sep0 0 2 004008 Apr10431 4 009Oct0 0 1 003006 May10221 7 109Nov0 0 1 003007 Jun10111 5 0011Dec0 0 1 002008 Jul11111 7 108

Aug02111 6 10132006 Sep 1 1 1 1 1 6 0 0 15 Jan0 0 0 004109 Oct 1 1 2 1 1 3 0 0 13 Feb0 0 0 005107 Nov10311 4 008 Mar0 0 1 0051011 Dec 1 0 2 1 1 5 1 0 10 Apr0 0 1 0031011 May0 0 3 004016 2009 Jun0 0 3 0041012 Jan20011 4 1012Jul0 0 4 0041012 Feb20011 5 005Aug0 0 5 1120012 Mar 2 0 0 1 1 6 0 0 5 Sep0 0 5 1140010 Apr10011 5 105Oct0 0 6 0040013 May10010 4 107Nov0 0 4 0030011 Jun11110 3 109Dec0 0 4 0030012 Jul11210 3 115

Aug11410 3 2182007 Sep 1 0 0 1 0 4 2 0 8 Jan0 0 4 1030011 Oct 1 0 2 1 0 4 2 0 8 Feb0 0 3 1030011 Nov20200 2 104 Mar0 0 4 103009 Dec 2 0 4 0 0 2 1 0 4 Apr0 0 4 1011011 May0 0 3 102208 2010 Jun0 0 2 101118 Jan20410 2 006Jul0 0 1 101218 Feb20310 3 006Aug0 0 0 002209 Mar 2 0 4 1 0 4 0 1 7 Sep0 0 2 003107 Apr00510 3 009Oct0 0 3 003017 May00310 3 0111Nov0 0 3 003018 Jun00500 3 1011Dec0 0 1 002018 Jul00500 2 1110

Aug00600 4 0182008 Sep 0 0 6 1 0 4 1 1 8 Jan0 0 0 002005 Oct 0 0 5 0 0 3 1 1 12 Feb0 0 1 000119 Nov00400 1 208 Mar0 0 2 0111114 Dec 0 0 4 0 0 0 2 0 8 Apr0 0 3 0011110 May0 0 3 0021112 2011 Jun0 0 5 002118 Jan00010 0 107Jul0 0 3 002128 Feb00110 2 206Aug0 0 3 001128 Mar 0 0 3 2 0 3 4 0 5 Sep0 0 2 001229 309W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 310W

Pembrokeshire Powys Rhondda Cynon Swansea Vale of Glamorgan Wrexham Taff Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI Mar2 012003000 Oct0 0 0 0014011 Apr1 013003000 Nov0 0 2 002319 May1 012001000 Dec0 0 0 002117 Jun1 011002000 Jul2 013002000 2009 Aug2 016003000 Jan0 0 2 002119Sep2 014002001 Feb0 0 1 002119Oct1 015003014 Mar0 0 1 1041111Nov1 012102036 Apr0 0 1 103019Dec2 0 9 103023 May0 0 1 003017 Jun0 0 1 00300102007 Jul0 0 1 0030012 Jan2 0 9 101125 Aug0 0 1 0040011 Feb2 0 9 001217 Sep0 0 0 003108 Mar1 0 7 007125 Oct0 0 0 003207 Apr1 0 7 018313 Nov0 0 1 002107 May3 0 8 206216 Dec0 0 1 002207 Jun3 0 9 107319 Jul3 014106119 2010 Aug3 0121081112 Jan0 0 0 002206Sep3 0 7 0073113 Feb0 0 0 002208Oct3 0 8 0053114 Mar0 0 0 003209Nov3 0 7 0042012 Apr0 0 0 0023011Dec3 0 5 0041111 May0 0 0 0023117 Jun0 0 0 00221122008 Jul0 0 0 0012111 Jan4 0 8 0061213 Aug0 0 0 001209 Feb4 0 6 0051114 Sep0 0 0 0013012 Mar2 0101051213 Oct0 0 0 0014013 Apr2 0141040110 Nov0 0 0 0015014 May1 0120040112 Dec0 0 1 001507 Jun2 0140061111 Jul2 0120061013 2011 Aug4 0100061011 Jan0 0 1 000409Sep5 0 8 0061010 Feb0 0 1 000309Oct5 0 8 1071010 Mar0 0 1 000207Nov4 0 6 2081011 Apr0 0 1 000206Dec4 0 5 2080014 May0 0 1 000209 Jun1 0 1 0002072009 Jul1 0 1 000208 Jan2 0 3 2062111 Aug1 0 1 000205 Feb2 0 5 1062112 Sep1 0 1 000207 Mar3 0 7 107219 Oct1 0 0 000108 Apr3 0 8 1070113 Nov1 0 1 0000010 May3 0 6 2061014 Dec1 0 1 001006 Jun3 0 7 2141012 Jul3 0 8 301108 Swansea Vale of Glamorgan Wrexham Aug2 0 5 301007 Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI Sep2 0 5 3021010

2005 Oct1 0 5 3031110 Nov1 0 5 303119 May2 013006000 Dec1 0 4 301114 Jun2 013105000 Jul2 113106000 Aug3 0101050002010 Sep2 012107000Jan1 0 3 302115 Oct3 211103000Feb1 0 3 402115 Nov3 211003000Mar1 1 1 502014 Dec2 112001000Apr2 0 1 402016 May2 0 2 101014 2006 Jun1 0 7 202006 Jan2 014003000Jul0 0 8 203004 Feb2 010003000Aug0 011104004 311W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 312W

Number and location of male and female young adult offenders (aged 18-20) Swansea Vale of Glamorgan Wrexham originating from a local borough of Islington Month SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI SCH STC YOI May September November January March Location 2009 2010 2010 2011 2011 Sep0 010104114 Oct1 0 8 104016(b) Male local 01212 prisons Nov1 0 8 204016 (c) Other prisons 4 11 8 12 12 Dec1 0 8 202114(including female prisons) 2011 May July September November January Jan1 0 8 112212 Location 2011 2011 2011 2011 2012 Feb1 010102012 Mar1 014002105(a) Male Young 29 31 41 45 40 Offender Apr1 014002004 Institutions May1 013102116 (b) Male local 03312 Jun1 012102115prisons Jul1 0 8 103104(c) Other prisons 66777 Aug1 0 9 003004(including female prisons) Sep0 0 9 002203 Oct0 0 8 000104 These figures have been drawn from administrative Nov0 0 8 001103IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording Dec0 0 4 001002system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Notes: and processing. 1.This table is based upon monthly snapshot data. Therefore one young person who is serving more than one month in custody may be shown in more than one Information on offenders’ residences is provided by month in the table. 2. Data from April 2011 onwards are provisional and will be finalised when the offenders on reception into prison and recorded on a 2011-12 Annual Youth Justice Statistics are published in 2013. central IT system. Addresses can include a home address, 3.The YJB does not hold data at local authority level. However, it does hold an address to which offenders intend to return on data down to Youth Offending Team area, some of which cover more than one local authority area. Please note Flintshire and Wrexham YOT split into two discharge or next of kin address and these figures are YOTs in 2001, though have been recorded as the combined YOT up to 2006. provided in the table above. 4.These figures come form the YJB’s Secure Accommodation Clearing House System (SACHS) database. If no address is given, an offender’s committal court 5.These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with address is used as a proxy for the area in which they are any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry resident. These figures are also included in the table and processing and may be subject to change over time. above. No address has been recorded and no court information is available for around 3% of all offenders, Youth Custody: Islington these figures are excluded from the table above.

Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many young adult offenders aged 18 to 20 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT from the London Borough of Islington have been held in a (a) young offender institutions, (b) local prisons G20 Countries and (c) other parts of the secure estate in each month since May 2009. [99461] 10. Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent representations Mr Blunt: All young offenders sentenced to Detention he has received on UK aid to G20 countries. [99637] in a Young Offender Institution (DYOI), which is the most common custodial sentence for this age group, are Mr Duncan: Of the G20 countries, DFID gives aid to held in appropriately designated YOI accommodation India, South Africa and to Indonesia for climate change. within the prison estate. The majority of this DFID no longer has bilateral aid programmes for Russia accommodation is in dedicated YOIs, although some and China and does not for instance give direct aid to establishments in the estate have a dual designation fight poverty in countries like Brazil or Argentina. (designated both as a prison and a YOI) and hold both adult prisoners and young offenders. The following AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria table shows the number of offenders aged 18-20 years old with a recorded residential address or proxy in the 11. Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for London borough of Islington who were held in International Development what recent assessment he predominant function male YoungOffender Institutions, has made of the future programme of the Global Fund predominant function male local prisons and other to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. [99639] prisons (including female prisons) on a set day in each month where data is available since May 2009. Mr O’Brien: The fund will spend some $9 billion to Number and location of male and female young adult offenders (aged 18-20) $10 billion between now and 2014 on the renewal of originating from a local borough of Islington previously approved programmes. A new transitional May September November January March funding mechanism could mean short-term changes to Location 2009 2010 2010 2011 2011 expected results. None the less, the UK contribution (a) Male Young 47 31 33 27 29 could support 412,000 people on ARV therapy, 366,000 Offender DOTS treatments of smear positive TB cases, and Institutions distribution of 10.3 million bed nets. The Secretary of 313W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 314W

State for International Development, my right hon. The pillars are wealth creation, governance and security, Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), climate change and global partnerships, as well as DFID will give evidence on the fund to the International funding in support of the Millennium Development Development Committee in mid April. Goals (education, health, water and sanitation and humanitarian assistance). Nepal DFID’s private sector department is playing a key role in promoting private sector activities within wealth 12. Mr Marcus Jones: To ask the Secretary of State creation, as well as the other pillars. More detail on for International Development what support his DFID’s approach to working with the private sector is Department provided to the Gurkha region of Nepal contained within the paper titled ‘The Engine of in the last year for which information is available. Development: The Private Sector and Prosperity for [99640] Poor People’. This can be found on the DFID website: http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Media-Room/News-Stories/2011/ Mr Duncan: Gurkhas are recruited across the whole Mitchell-Harness-dynamism-and-energy-of-private- of Nepal. By 2015, UKAid will lift 400,000 people out enterprise-in-international-development/ of poverty, provide safe water to 100,000 people and For more information on current activities in this ensure 4 million people are resilient to disasters and area and budget allocations please see the DFID annual climate change. We have expanded and enhanced the report and accounts 2010-11, which can also be found Gurkha welfare scheme. on the DFID website: Argentina http://www.dfid.gov.uk/About-us/How-we-measure-progress/ Annual-report/ Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Further information on DFID projects/programmes International Development whether he has received can be accessed from our Project Information Database: reports from the UK’s representation at the Inter-American http://projects.dfid.gov.uk/ Development Bank and International Bank for http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Where-we-work/ Reconstruction and Development about the US and in the DFID departmental operational plan: administration’s change in policy in September 2011 on loans to Argentina from these institutions; and what http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Site-search/?q=operational+plan reports were received. [99304] on the DFID website. DFID operational plans provide information on programme spend broken down by the Mr Duncan: The US administration has not formally various pillars. communicated its change in policy towards loans to Argentina at the Inter-American Development Bank Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for and International Bank for Reconstruction and International Development what criteria his Department Development to the UK. Nor has the US administration uses when assessing the value for money of the private formally lobbied the UK to change its policy. sector programmes it funds. [99094] Officials at the Department for International Development were only made aware of the new US Mr O’Brien: The Department for International position towards loans to Argentina when recent loans Development’s (DFID’s) work with the private sector were considered at the two institutions on the 14 September ensures value for money by maximising the impact of 2011 in the case of Inter American Development Bank, each pound spent to improve poor peoples’ lives. DFID and 14 February 2012 in the case of the International ensures value for money throughout the full programme Bank for Reconstruction and Development. cycle, starting with the DFID business plan, results framework: Developing Countries: Private Sector www.dfid.gov.uk/About-us/How-we-measure-progress/ Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for and operational plans: International Development what funding has been www.dfid.gov.uk/What-we-do/Publications/?p=OP allocated by his Department to programmes run by the DFID uses a value for money framework based on private sector (a) in each (i) country and (ii) continent assessing the effectiveness and efficiency of all projects and (b) under the auspices of each multilateral as well as ways to reduce the overall costs. The specific institution; and how many of his Department’s staff criteria for ensuring value for money at a project level work on each. [99092] are determined on a case-by-case basis. All proposals for DFID funding must be accompanied by a business Mr O’Brien: Information on whether programme case. This is the main record of the proposal, summarising funding has been channelled through the private sector value for money considerations and intended results. is not held centrally. Indicators for tracking value for money are included in The Department for International Development (DFID) the logical framework, which is an annex to the business does not allocate a specific proportion of the budget to case. DFID’s monitoring and evaluation processes include private sector projects. The DFID annual report and an annual review against the indicators in the logical accounts 2010-11 set out the plans for the priority framework and requires an assessment of whether a pillars for the four years of the spending review period project remains good value for money. The project and private sector department plans for the next two database: years. http://projects.dfid.gov.uk/ For planning purposes the Department for International provides access to business cases, logical frameworks Development (DFID) allocates money by priority pillars. and annual reviews. 315W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 316W

Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for and prosperous future, and the UK Government Conflict International Development what the application process Pool will continue to focus on stabilisation and conflict is for funding from his Department’s private sector prevention. programme. [99378] North Korea Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Development (DFID) supports various funds designed Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for to encourage businesses to invest in development projects. International Development what funding his Department These include initiatives which work in a wide range of provides for educational initiatives in (a) North Korea DFID’s priorities countries such as the Africa Enterprise and (b) for North Koreans in the UK; and if he will Challenge Fund (AECF), the Business Innovation Facility consider increasing that funding. [99778] (BIF) and the Private Infrastructure Development Group (PIDG). The application process is different for each scheme. Mr Duncan: The Department for International Development (DFID) does not provide bilateral funding A full list of the funding schemes and partnership for educational initiatives in North Korea or for North opportunities on offer can be found on DFID’s website Koreans in the UK and has no plans to do so. under the funding opportunities for business page: http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Work-with-us/Funding-opportunities/ Overseas Aid Business/ Information on how to apply is also detailed here. Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development on which countries his Iraq Department’s governance and conflict programme will focus. [99091]

Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr O’Brien: Capable and legitimate governance International Development what recent assessment he institutions are vital for development progress. The has made of his Department’s operations in Iraq; and Department for International Development (DFID) if he will make a statement. [99366] supports governance activities in all 28 of our focus countries. HMG’s Building Stability Overseas Strategy Mr Duncan: In line with the outcome of the UK sets out the UK’s approach to addressing conflict and Department for International Development (DFID)’s fragility overseas, which is applied when designing March 2011 Bilateral Aid Review (BAR), DFID will programmes to address conflict. Key priority countries complete its bilateral programme in Iraq in March for addressing conflict include Afghanistan, South Sudan, 2012. The BAR made the assessment that while Iraq and the Democratic Republic of Congo. continues to face development challenges, it is a middle The type of governance and conflict programmes income country with huge potential. In this context, the implemented in our focus countries varies from one to multilateral organisations such as the United Nations another. The range includes: and the World Bank, which will continue to receive core funding from DFID, are better placed to help it to Support to elections, parliaments and democratic governance; realise the next stage of its development. During the Empowering citizens to take control of their own affairs and past year, UK Aid has: holding governments to account; Improving security and justice for poor people, and reducing Helped the Government of Iraq to develop a clear policy violence against women; framework for implementing its strategic priorities and thus better respond to the needs of Iraqi citizens, through publication Building the capacity of national and local level governments of Iraq’s Strategic Government programme and the establishment to deliver health, education and other key services; of two central Government institutions responsible for policy Promoting effective and sustainable tax systems which strengthen coordination and development; accountability and facilitate the exit from aid. Delivered four expert assessments helping the Government of Iraq undertake reforms to make it easier to do business and Somalia invest in Iraq; Helped over 240 staff and students benefit from professional development opportunities and courses through 35 development Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for partnerships between Iraqi, UK and other universities; International Development what (a) development Provided humanitarian support for over 1.3 million Iraqi assistance and (b) other aid his Department provided children and their families, delivering access to health care for to Puntland and the South and Central regions of 250,000 boys and 250,000 girls, providing 740,000 Iraqis with Somalia (i) in each year from 2005 to 2010 and (ii) in the access to safe drinking water, and helping 80,000 children first half of 2011; and what the difference was between secure access to education. commitments and disbursements in each period. [97603] After March 2012, DFID will continue to deliver development results in Iraq through core funding to the Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International multilateral organisations, and via regional initiatives Development (DFID) does not compile formal aid with the International Monetary Fund to improve expenditure statistics broken down at sub-national level, macroeconomic governance, and with the International or records commitments separately for actual aid spending. Finance Corporation on private sector development. UK bilateral aid expenditure to Somalia (including Through the Arab Partnership initiative the UK will Somaliland) for each year 2005-06 to 2010-11, is given continue to support reforms in Iraq for a stable, democratic in Table 1 as follows: 317W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 318W

Table 1: DFID bilateral aid—Somalia it causes horrific distress and suffering to the child. It is £000 likely that a proportion of this type of abuse remains 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 unreported. Total 18,740 16,631 25,714 33,471 44,431 46,060 Research commissioned by the Department for Of which: Education in 2006 reviewed child abuse cases occurring between 2000 and 2005 to identify any cases where the Humanitarian 15,589 7,975 13,675 18,288 31,900 29,855 abuse was linked to accusations of possession or witchcraft assistance 38 cases involving 47 children were found to be relevant Source: Statistics on International Development, 2011, 2010. and sufficiently well documented. The children came http://www.dfid.gov.uk/About-us/How-we-measure-progress/Aid- from a … variety of backgrounds including African, Statistics/ South Asian and European. There has been no research In the year 2011-12, the UK intends to spend up to conducted by the Department since the 2006 report and £103 million across Somalia, focused on heath services, there are no official statistics on this type of abuse. private sector development, governance and peace-building The Department for Education has this year and humanitarian assistance, subject to results. Up to commissioned a small-scale research study to draw 60% of this development funding (not including together what is already known about the issue. It is humanitarian aid) from 2011-12 to 2014-15 will be to hoped to publish the report of this research in the Somaliland, dependent on results achieved. autumn. Sub-Saharan Africa I have also established, and chaired during its start-up phase, a Working Group on Faith-Based Child Abuse, involving partners in the statutory, voluntary, faith and Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for community sectors. During the next phase of this work, International Development what steps his Department proposals for tackling this abuse will be shared with a is taking to ensure that mineral-exporting countries wider group of professionals, voluntary sector, from sub-Saharan Africa are getting a fair price for organisations, faith and community groups. their export goods. [99246] The proposals currently focus on the four themes of Mr O’Brien: Open and predictable trade rules are the engaging communities;. empowering practitioners; best approach to ensuring trade contributes to the supporting victims and witnesses; and communicating economic development of any country. The Department our messages. for International Development (DFID) supports Fairtrade Drugs: Education International (FLO). FLO in partnership with the Alliance of Responsible Mining has developed Fairtrade and Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Fairmined Gold Certification. The certification means Education what funding his Department provided to that the gold has been responsibly mined and that the the Drug Education Forum in each of the last five miners have received fair prices for their products allowing financial years; and what funding his Department will them to support their families and create a better future. provide to the Drug Education Forum in each of the FLO is working to extend this certification to Africa. next five financial years. [99185] DFID also supports countries in sub-Saharan Africa to improve management of their mining sectors so as to Tim Loughton: The Department provided the Drugs maximise the benefits for growth and development. For Education Forum (the Forum) with funding of £64,000 example, in Sierra Leone, the UK supports a new per year from financial year 2007-08 to 2010-11 and National Minerals Agency which aims to help raise £2.4 £69,000 in financial year 2011-12. billion in additional government revenues from mining Payments for the Forum were made by the Department by 2021. to Mentor, the voluntary sector organisation which The UK is also a strong supporter of transparency in hosts the Forum. the extractives sector. This enables citizens to hold their The Department will not be providing further funding governments accountable for what they receive from the to the Forum. However the Department recognises the exploitation of their countries’ natural resources. The continuing need of local areas, schools and practitioners UK supports the Extractive Industries Transparency to have access to reliable evidence based information Initiative which has already resulted in $500 billion of and advice on substance misuse prevention and is currently extractives revenues being reported. exploring the best way to provide this. Families

EDUCATION Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Children: Abuse Education (1) how much funding his Department has allocated to the troubled families initiative in (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13, (c) 2013-14 and (d) 2014-15; Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what plans his Department has to prevent [99181] the abuse of children who are branded as witches or (2) how many civil servants in his Department are possessed by evil spirits. [99905] working on the troubled families initiative; [99182] (3) how much funding local education authorities Tim Loughton [holding answer 13 March 2012]: The will contribute from pre-allocated resources from his number of cases in this country of child abuse linked to Department towards the troubled families initiative in belief, including belief in witchcraft or spirit possession, (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13, (c) 2013-14 and (d) 2014-15; is believed to be small. Where such abuse occurs, however, [99187] 319W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 320W

(4) whether funding of the troubled families initiative Schools: Finance has had implications for the funding of other programmes operated by his Department; what such programmes Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for are; and what funding has been so diverted in each case. Education if he will set out the amount of local authority [99552] central spend equivalent grant that will be paid in academic year 2011-12 to each academy which converted Tim Loughton: The responsibility for delivering the to that status between May 2010 and August 2011. Troubled Families programme transferred to Department [99758] for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) in December 2011. Along with other Departments, the Mr Gibb [holding answer 13 March 2012]: This is a Department for Education (DfE) have agreed to support matter for the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency (YPLA). the programme including by transferring funding to Peter Lauener, the chief executive of the YPLA, has DCLG. An initial £15 million has been transferred for written to the hon. Member and a copy of his response 2010/11, and the Department will be contributing £30 has been placed in the House Libraries. million in each of the next three financial years. Funding Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 12 March 2012: is being identified through the normal budget setting I am writing with a response to the question you asked the process, which involves the Department reviewing its Secretary of State on 8 March 2012 about the amount of local overall priorities, identifying funding lines which are authority central spend equivalent grant (LACSEG) that will be coming to an end or offer less good value for money, paid in academic year 2011-12 to each Academy which converted and adjusting funding to meet new priorities. Part of to that status between May 2010 and August 2011. A spreadsheet containing the information you have requested has been placed in the funding will come from what would otherwise have the Library of the House. been spent on the DfE programme for families with The first schools converted to Academy status on 1 September multiple problems. The estimates memorandum for each 2010. Therefore the information provided relates to schools that Government Department will be published by Parliament converted between 1 September 2010 and 1 August 2011. The and the Estimates themselves will be published by Treasury information is provided in two tabs on the spreadsheet: the first in the early part of the new financial year 2012/13. covers Academies converting between September 2010 and March These documents will carry the detail of all programme 2011; the second covers those converting between April 2011 and budget changes. August 2011. There is currently the equivalent of one full-time I trust this provides the information you were seeking. member of staff working on the Troubled Families programme within the Department. A number of other officials are involved from time to time to ensure that DEFENCE programmes, measures and approaches are aligned with wider DfE policies and programmes. Afghanistan Local authorities have the discretion to make their Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for own decisions on how much funding will be allocated to Defence (1) what his policy is on allowing bereaved the Troubled Families programme from central Government families to visit Camp Bastion; [99899] grants. Information on estimated expenditure by local authorities from 2011/12 to 2014/15 in respect of this (2) what requests his Department has received from work is not available. The £448 million funding for the bereaved family members to visit Camp Bastion. Troubled Families programme will be made available to [99901] all local areas (at upper-tier local authority level) from Nick Harvey [holding answer 13 March 2012]: The 2012/13, primarily on a payment-by-results basis, distributed Department has received some requests from bereaved as a 40% contribution to the costs of actions needed. families. Like the previous Government, the Government’s The remaining 60% will need to be found locally, from existing policy is not to organise or host visits for the local authority and partners (including, for example, bereaved families to Afghanistan. However, we understand police, health and Job Centre Plus). that this is a highly sensitive issue and, as a consequence, the feasibility of organised visits is kept under review. Regulation Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what recent discussions he has had with his Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Canadian counterpart on allowing bereaved family Education how many regulations his Department members to visit Camp Bastion. [99900] repealed between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012; Nick Harvey [holding answer 13 March 2012]: The and if he will estimate the potential savings in each Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member case. [98275] for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), regularly discusses issues on a range of topics with his Canadian Tim Loughton: In the period 1 June 2011 to 31 counterpart. The matter of bereaved family members January 2012, the Department for Education revoked visiting Afghanistan has been discussed by officials. 11 sets of regulations. The Government’s aim is to reduce unnecessary bureaucracy on teachers, heads and Aircraft Carriers governors so that they can focus on raising standards, rather than administrative tasks. It is not our intention Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for to estimate the potential cost savings for the revoked Defence how much additional changes to the position regulations, but we are looking into assessing the impact of the Landing Signals Officer position on the Queen of our measures on teachers’ time. Elizabeth class aircraft carriers to accommodate the 321W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 322W

C variant of the F35 Joint Strike Fighter will add to the land using the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch construction cost of the carriers. [98378] System and Advanced Arrestor Gear in the last three years. [99489] Peter Luff: The landing safety officer (LSO) role is required to enable the recovery of conventional aircraft Peter Luff: There has been one successful launch of to a carrier variant (CV) carrier. It is not required for the F-35C aircraft using the Electromagnetic Aircraft short take off and vertical landing (STOVL) operations. Launch System at Lakehurst, New Jersey in November The cost to provide this role therefore forms part of our 2011. There have been no F-35C launches at sea and no estimates for the conversion of a Queen Elizabeth Class F-35C traps using the Advanced Arrestor Gear. carrier to CV configuration. These estimates continue to mature through the conversion development phase Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for (CDP) and at this stage, our cost modelling does not Defence what design changes to the Queen Elizabeth- identify the specific cost components for the LSO position. class aircraft carriers were needed to accommodate the larger range of weapons used by the F-35C variant; Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State and if he will estimate the cost to the public purse of for Defence what assessment he has made of the effect such changes. [99546] on the UK defence strategy of the absence of a fixed wing carrier strike capability. [99320] Peter Luff: No changes to the Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carrier design are needed to accommodate the Nick Harvey: As set out in the Strategic Defence and UK weapon fit for the F-35C variant. Security Review, our assessment is that expeditionary Armed Forces: Life Insurance airpower can be delivered through other means (for example, land basing and overflight agreements with Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for other nations) in the short term. This was illustrated by Defence if he will list all compensatory payments made the campaign in Libya, which also confirmed our by (a) his Department and (b) other Government assumption that working more closely with allies and Departments to the next of kin of fallen service personnel, partners delivers more military capability. setting out how much was paid and over what time The National Security Risk Assessment (NSRA) assessed period since 2000; how many recipients there have been and prioritised all major areas of national security risk for each payment in each such year; what the total domestic and overseas. Subject-matter experts, analysts amount spent on each payment was in each year; whether and intelligence specialists were asked to identify the any eligibility criteria applied in respect of each payment; full range of existing and potential risks, and determined and which Government Department was the lead that the strategic environment in the period after 2020 is Department in administering each payment. [98890] far less certain. This is why the Government believe that a modern carrier capability, able to undertake a variety Mr Robathan [holding answer 8 March 2012]: The of roles such as power projection, peace keeping, conflict following table provides information on the number of prevention and the provision of aid and assistance in recipients of the death in service lump sum, the number times of crisis, will be required. of bereaved families in receipt of a survivor’s guaranteed income payment and the total amount paid for each Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for year since the introduction of the Armed Forces Defence how many successful launches and traps of the Compensation Scheme, which is administered by the F-35C aircraft have occurred (a) at sea and (b) on Ministry of Defence:

Recipients of survivor’s Recipients of guaranteed Recipients of death in guaranteed income income payment— Financial year service payments Total paid (£) payment—spouse children Total paid (£)

2005-06 1— 20,000 5 10 120,000 2006-07 30 490,000 45 60 1,100,000 2007-08 40 765,000 80 95 1,800,000 2008-09 35 610,000 105 140 2,100,000 2009-10 40 720,000 145 190 2,500,000 2010-11 40 690,000 185 245 3,700,000 Total 1 Fewer than five Note: All figures have been rounded to 10 or 1,000

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) what estimate he has made of the cost to a Defence (1) what proportion of service personnel take member of the armed forces for life insurance each out life insurance before being deployed to Afghanistan; year. [99978] [99976] (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Mr Robathan: This information is not held by the service personnel of each rank who were deployed (a) Ministry of Defence (MOD). Personal accident and life with and (b) without life insurance in each of the last insurance is voluntary and is separate from the benefits provided by the Government through the Armed Forces 10 years; [99977] Compensation Scheme. We have a duty of care however, 323W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 324W to ensure that personal accident and life insurance BAE Systems cover is available to those service personnel who consider they require it, and the MOD does this through the Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for PAX, and Service Life Insurance (SLI) schemes provided Defence what meetings Minsters in his Department through Aon for PAX, and the Sterling Insurance Group have had with BAE Systems to discuss cost and time for SLI. overruns on defence projects. [96429] While we hold some information on those who have chosen to purchase personal accident and life insurance Peter Luff: Defence Ministers continue to have regular under these schemes. I refer the right hon. Member to discussions with BAE Systems about a range of subjects the answer I gave on 1 February 2012, Official Report, which, where appropriate, will include cost and time column 651W. We do not have details of how service overruns on individual projects. personnel are members of other schemes or purchased Bahrain insurance immediately prior to a deployment.

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what subsidy PAX life insurance receives; and Defence what recent discussions he has had with his Bahraini counterpart on the UK providing assistance what eligibility criteria apply. [99979] to Bahrain’s security forces. [99556]

Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) does Nick Harvey: The UK is assisting Bahrain in its not subsidise PAX. However, service personnel are required efforts to implement the reforms needed to bring long-term to pay extra premiums to cover them for the period that stability and prosperity to the country. The Secretary of they are deployed on the land or in the airspace over State for Defence, the right hon. Member for Runnymede Afghanistan; these additional premiums are directly and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), has not had any supported financially by the MOD. This support is discussions with his counterpart, or any other Bahrainis, available, on an individual basis, to other personal regarding the UK providing assistance to Bahrain’s accident schemes which provide cover to service personnel security forces. and charge additional premiums for deployment in Afghanistan. PAX is voluntary and additional to MOD Clyde Submarine Base: Safety benefits provided through the Armed Forces Compensation Scheme. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps his Department has taken to revise Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for the accident probability assessment of Faslane Shiplift Defence what discussions he has had on auto- for Vanguard-class submarines with Strategic Weapon enrolment on a life insurance scheme for members of System Embarked following the fire on the Russian the armed forces. [99980] submarine Ekaterinburg in the dry dock at Roslyakovo on 29 December 2011. [99506] Mr Robathan: I have had no such discussions. Personal accident and life cover is voluntary and is additional to Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence conducts annual the benefits provided by the Ministry of Defence in the reviews of the safety case for the shiplift at Her Majesty’s event of death through the Armed Forces Compensation Naval Base Clyde. The safety case includes fire as a Scheme. However, we have a duty of care to ensure that potential hazard and identifies the appropriate safety cover is available to those service personnel who consider mitigations to ensure that the risk is minimised. The they require it, and the MOD does this through the review takes into account any lessons learned and new PAX, and Service Life Insurance (SLI) schemes provided information obtained since the last review, as well as the through Aon for PAX, and the Sterling Insurance Group need to deliver continuous improvement. for SLI. The annual review is currently under way, and began Army: Recruitment before the incident with the Russian submarine Ekaterinburg. It is too early to say whether there will be any relevant lessons from this incident. However, any Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for that emerge will be considered during the review process. Defence by what process his Department reached the decision that Capita should be the recommended Falkland Islands supplier for the Army’s recruiting partnering project. [99399] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the cost to the public purse was of Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has protecting the Falkland Islands in each year since 1985; selected the Recruiting Partnering Project Recommended and what estimate he has made of the future costs of Supplier in accordance with the Competitive Dialogue defending the Islands in each year to 2015. [91953] Procedure of the European Union Public Contracts Regulations 2006 (“The Regulations”), which apply to Nick Harvey [holding answer 26 January 2012]: Since all public procurements not covered by a treaty for the 1985 the Ministry of Defence has used a number of functioning of the European Union exemption; the budgetary models to record the costs of forces based in main exemption for MOD being ″warlike stores″. the Falkland Islands, making comparison difficult and The selection of Capita as the recommended supplier there is variation throughout caused by what categories for the Recruiting Partnering Project was decided on of expenditure were included. Prior to 2000-01 the the basis of the ’Most Economically Advantageous MOD used cash accounting; the costs for financial Tender’ in accordance with predetermined criteria. years 1985-86 - 2000-01 were: 325W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 326W

Peter Luff: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Financial year £ million gave him on 5 December 2011, Official Report, column 1985-86 572 136W, and to the answer I gave on 20 February 2012, 1986-87 402 Official Report, column 467W, to my hon. Friend the 1987-88 229 Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish). 1988-89 102 1989-90 68 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft 1990-91 66 1991-92 72 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 1992-93 58 what criteria his Department uses to determine the 1993-94 67 through-life cost of the (a) carrier variant Joint Strike 1994-95 66 Fighter and (b) STOVL variant Joint Strike Fighter; 1995-96 70 and if he will make a statement. [98522] 1996-97 81 1997-98 76 Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence bases its through 1998-99 72 life cost estimates for the joint strike fighter (JSF) on a 1999-2000 71 comprehensive and detailed set of ground rules and assumptions covering all aspects of production costs, Since 2000-01 the MOD has used resource accounting reliability data, flying hours required and capability and the costs for these financial years are: upgrade requirements. Financial year £ million Because JSF remains in the development test phase, we use a mixture of actual data and parametric data 2000-01 143 based on historical aircraft types to assess the through 2001-02 115 life costs of JSF for the UK. This methodology is the 2002-03 120 same for all three variants of JSF. 2003-04 111 Although JSF is a complex weapon system that will 2004-05 113 provide the UK with capabilities not previously available 2005-06 143 to our Armed Forces, the economies of scale of the 2006-07 65 collaborative programme involving nine nations means 2007-08 67 that we expect JSF to be more cost effective through life 2008-09 70 than our current in-service fighter aircraft. 2009-10 73 2010-11 75 Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 64 Defence what the unit cost is of a Joint Strike Fighter. 2012-13 61 [99134] 2013-14 63 2014-15 65 Peter Luff [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The cost Since 2006-07 figures are for the cost to the Chief of of the Joint Strike Fighter will be determined at its Joint Operations Top Level Budget only. To provide the main investment decision point. The Ministry of Defence level of detailed breakdown for other Top Level Budgets does not publish estimates prior to such decision points, expenditure in relation to the Falkland Islands would as to do so could undermine its commercial position. incur disproportionate cost. Consequently these figures do not reflect the full cost of defending the Falkland Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Islands as much of the cost is attributable to other Defence what weapon systems will be used by the Joint budgets within the Department. Strike Fighter. [99135] From 2011-12, responsibility and funding for estates management including accommodation costs and utilities Peter Luff [holding answer 12 March 2012]: The such as electricity and fuel oil transferred to the Defence Joint Strike Fighter aircraft will be equipped with a Infrastructure Organisation. This has contributed to range of advanced air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons, the reduction in actual and provisionally forecast future the exact mix of which will be optimised to reflect the expenditure shown from that year onwards. operational requirement. The Commander of British Forces in the Falkland Islands is confident he has the resources to defend the Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State islands against any attack. But it should be noted there for Defence which variant of the Joint Strike Fighter is is no credible threat against the islands. his Department’s preferred aircraft to replace the Harrier jet. [99316]

Food Peter Luff: In the Strategic Defence and Security Review, the carrier variant of the joint strike fighter was Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State chosen to meet the UK’s future carrier strike capability. for Defence what proportion of food procured by his We are currently reviewing all parts of the equipment Department (a) meets the Government Buying programme as part of the Defence budget in planning Standards for Food and Catering and (b) is from round 2012, and we expect to make an announcement British sources. [99801] on this shortly. 327W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 328W

Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Nick Harvey: As part of the naval contribution to for Defence what the results were of the most recent defence strategy, we will maintain credible and effective testing of the F-35B; and if he will make a statement. maritime forces by continuing to invest heavily in new [99318] capabilities for the Royal Navy. This investment will see the entry into operational service of the final three Type Peter Luff: In October 2011 the F-35B conducted 45 destroyers, seven new Astute class submarines, the initial sea trials on USS WASP. During the testing, two Wildcat helicopter, the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft F-35B test aircraft completed 72 vertical landings and carrier and joint strike fighter, as well as the Type 26 72 short take-offs under various conditions, logging global combat ship. more than 28-hours of flight time. Radar: Wind Power Navy Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 29 February 2012, Official Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, column 386W, on radar: wind power, whether Defence what steps he plans to take to ensure that the trials have been conducted to test the effectiveness of UK remains at the centre of the maritime community. radar systems that are deemed to be wind-farm [99858] tolerant; and if he will make a statement. [99523]

Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence, through the Peter Luff: Wind farm developers are responsible for Royal Navy, regularly engages with key stakeholders in mitigating the effects of the interference caused by wind the maritime sector at both the national and international farm turbines on Ministry of Defence (MOD) radars. level. Consequently, industry has completed a trial, in which This includes regular dialogue with the shipping industry the MOD was involved, but did not fund, to prove the through the Shipping Defence Advisory Committee; effectiveness of the planned radar systems in the presence liaison with the Chamber of Shipping, as a lead partner of wind farms. in Sea Vision UK; and through the National Maritime A further trial is scheduled for July 2012, which will Information Centre, which brings together elements of assess the effectiveness of the first radar installation at government and industry to tackle the full range of Remote Radar Head Trimingham, once the major off-shore maritime security challenges in partnership across wind farm development at Sheringham Shoal has been Government. constructed. The Royal Navy’s persistent presence in areas of strategic interest, such as the Gulf, Indian Ocean, Horn Regulation of Africa, Caribbean, West Africa and Atlantic regions, also ensures that MOD retains strong engagement links Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for with the global maritime community. Defence how many regulations his Department repealed between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012; and if he will Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate the potential savings in each case. [98274] Defence what steps he plans to take to ensure that naval recruitment, training and retainment of Mr Robathan: Between 1 June 2011 and 31 January personnel sustains an effective Royal Navy. [99860] 2012, the Ministry of Defence revoked the following three items of secondary legislation: Mr Robathan: It is a key requirement for each of the The Clyde Dockyard Port of Gareloch and Loch Long Order armed forces to maintain a satisfactory balance of 1967 (SI 1967/1141) skills, experience, ability and seniority in rank to enable The Clyde Dockyard Port of Gareloch and Loch Long delivery of operational requirements. Through careful (Amendment) Order 1983 (SI 1983/878) manpower planning, the application of rigorous standards, In November 2011, the Armed Forces Act 2011 received campaigns and policies, such as targeted recruitment Royal Assent. This Act repealed the Naval Medical campaigns and career management, the Royal Navy Compassionate Fund Act 1915 and also revoked the recruits, trains and retains the personnel required to Naval Medical Compassionate Fund Order 2008 achieve its operational tasking. (SI 2008/3129). For the longer term, the Government have made a These repeals and revocations have come as the result commitment to develop the New Employment Model of the regular updating and consolidation of departmental (NEM) for service personnel. Recognising that the current secondary legislation and are not estimated to have any employment model for service personnel has not changed financial impact. much in the last 40 years, and needs to be improved to better meet the needs of today’s armed forces, the NEM Territorial Army: Recruitment aims to promote greater stability in service life, balanced against the requirement to deliver operational capability. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for It is hoped that the NEM Programme Steering Board Defence what the upper age limit is for those with no will provide a report for consideration by the Defence previous military experience for joining (a) 4 Para, (b) Board in the autumn of this year. 63 Signal Squadron and (c) Honourable Artillery Company units of the Territorial Army. [99462] Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he plans to take to ensure that Mr Robathan: The upper age limit for joining the naval strategy maintains a credible and effective Territorial Army for those with no previous military maritime capability. [99866] experience is 42 years and 11 months for soldier entry 329W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 330W and 34 years and 11 months for officer entry. A higher Charities limit can be applied for certain professional or specialist applicants for officer entry; this would not apply, however, Kwasi Kwarteng: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet to those applying for the units mentioned in the question. Office when regulations for introducing charitable incorporated organisations into England and Wales will be finalised. [99323] CABINET OFFICE Lung Cancer Mr Hurd: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on 8 March 2012, Official Report, column 868W. Derek Twigg: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what percentage of the population died of lung Childbirth cancer in (a) Halton, (b) Merseyside, (c) Cheshire and (d) England in each year since 1997. [99077] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office if he will estimate the number and the proportion Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the of births where one or both parents were UK-born in responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have (a) London and (b) each London borough in the most asked the authority to reply. recent year for which figures are available. [99463] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2012: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have what percentage of the population died of lung cancer in (a) asked the authority to reply. Halton, (b) Merseyside, (c) Cheshire and (d) England in each year since 1997. (99077) Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2012: Table 1 below shows the percentage of the population that died As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I with lung cancer as the underlying cause of death in Halton have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking unitary authority, Merseyside metropolitan county, Cheshire East for the number and the proportion of births where one or both unitary authority, Cheshire West and Chester unitary authority parents were UK-born in (a) London and (b) each London and England, for 1997 to 2010 (the latest year available). borough in the most recent year for which figures are available On the 1 April 2009 the former county of Cheshire and the six (99463). former districts within Cheshire were abolished and split across Figures for live births where one or both parents are UK born Cheshire East and Cheshire West and Chester unitary authorities. have been compiled from birth registration data. The following Cheshire East unitary authority comprises Congleton, Crewe and table shows the number and proportion of live births in 2010 in Nantwich and Macclesfield districts. Cheshire West and Chester the areas requested, according to registration data. Information unitary authority comprises Chester, Ellesmere Port and Neston on country of birth of parents is provided by the informant at and Vale Royal districts. registration. Figures on cancer incidence and mortality in the United Kingdom Number and proportion of live births in London, where one or both and constituent countries are published annually and are available parents are UK born, 2010 here: Number of births Proportion of births www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- where one or both where one or both releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-21518 Area parents are UK born parents are UK born

Table 1. Percentage of the population that died from lung cancer, London 70,924 53.3 England and selected areas, 1997-20101, 2, 3, 4 Percentage Inner London 27,322 50.0 Cheshire West Camden 1,558 50.9 Cheshire and Hackney plus 2,761 59.0 England Merseyside East Chester Halton City of London Hammersmith 1,520 54.8 1997 0.06 0.09 0.05 0.06 0.08 and Fulham 1998 0.06 0.08 0.06 0.06 0.08 Haringey 2,038 45.7 1999 0.06 0.08 0.05 0.06 0.07 Islington 1,771 60.0 2000 0.06 0.09 0.05 0.06 0.05 Kensington and 909 40.9 2001 0.05 0.09 0.05 0.06 0.08 Chelsea 2002 0.05 0.08 0.05 0.06 0.06 Lambeth 2,705 54.9 2003 0.05 0.09 0.05 0.05 0.08 Lewisham 2,795 56.1 2004 0.05 0.08 0.05 0.05 0.07 Newham 1,969 31.4 2005 0.05 0.08 0.06 0.05 0.07 Southwark 2,581 50.3 2006 0.05 0.08 0.04 0.06 0.07 Tower Hamlets 1,968 43.1 2007 0.05 0.08 0.05 0.06 0.06 Wandsworth 3,565 64.3 2008 0.05 0.08 0.05 0.06 0.08 Westminster 1,182 38.6 2009 0.05 0.08 0:05 0.06 0.08 2010 0.05 0.08 0.05 0.05 0.08 Outer London 43,602 55.5 1 Data extracted using original cause of death. Lung cancer is defined Barking and 1,776 47.6 using the International classification of Diseases (ICD) Ninth revision Dagenham codes 161.0-161.9 for the years 1997-2000 and the International Barnet 3,067 55.4 classification of Diseases Tenth revision codes C33-C34 for the years 2001-2010. Bexley 2,319 77.5 2 Based on deaths registered in each calendar year. Brent 1,788 34.1 3 Based on boundaries as of 2011. Bromley 3,369 82.8 4 Figures exclude deaths of non-residents. 331W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 332W

Number and proportion of live births in London, where one or both Employment: Young People parents are UK born, 2010 Number of births Proportion of births where one or both where one or both Mr Laws: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Area parents are UK born parents are UK born how many people aged (a) 18 to 21 and (b) 22 to 24 years were (i) in employment and (ii) self-employed in Croydon 3,399 61.4 England in the last year for which figures are available. Ealing 2,300 39.2 [100063] Enfield 2,487 48.6 Greenwich 2,559 54.7 Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Harrow 1,429 40.8 responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Havering 2,407 85.4 asked the authority to reply. Hillingdon 2,361 56.3 Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2012: Hounslow 1,963 44.3 As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, l Kingston upon 1,632 70.6 have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Thames how many people aged (a) 18 to 21 and (b) 22 to 24 are (i) in Merton 1,895 53.8 employment and (ii) self-employed in England in the last year for Redbridge 2,300 51.5 which figures are available (100063). Richmond 2,305 77.0 The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles employment upon Thames statistics for England from the Labour Force Survey (LFS), Sutton 1,987 74.3 following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. Waltham 2,259 46.8 According to the LFS, during the period October to December Forest 2011, there were 1.29 million people aged 18 to 21 and 1.49 million people aged 22 to 24 in employment in England. In the Citizenship same period, there were 57,000 people aged 18 to 21 and 102,000 people aged 22 to 24 self-employed in England.

Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many young people in Birmingham, Ladywood Government Departments: ICT constituency have taken part in the National Citizen Service to date. [100065] Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many iPads are owned by (a) his Department Mr Hurd: This information will be available shortly. and (b) other Government departments. [99096]

Civil Servants: Ministerial Policy Advisers Mr Maude: My Department includes the Government Digital Service (GDS) which is tasked with transforming Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Minister for the digital services to make them better, simpler and more Cabinet Office how many special advisers are in post; easily accessible for citizens, businesses and for Departments, and how many special advisers have been appointed as while saving the taxpayer money. civil servants since May 2010. [99078] GDS’s running cost is down a quarter on last year. The IT system used by the service was delivered at Mr Maude: Since May 2010 the Government have around a fifth of the cost originally proposed and published on a quarterly basis details of special advisers, includes 11 iPads used to support trials and various who are temporary civil servants. projects, particularly when it is cheaper than using a The most recent information is available in the Library dedicated laptop. of the House and can also be accessed on the Cabinet Office website at: Public Sector: Construction http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/special- adviser-data-releases Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Departmental Regulation Office what steps the Government is taking to ensure that public sector construction projects deliver value for money. [99299] Gordon Banks: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many regulations his Department repealed Mr Maude: The Government Construction Strategy, between 1 June 2011 and 31 January 2012; and if he sets out the programme to improve the value for money will estimate the potential savings in each case. [98273] of construction projects. Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office, jointly with the The Government Construction Strategy can be found Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, leads at: the Red Tape Challenge programme aimed at cutting http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/sites/default/files/resources/ existing regulation across all Departments. To date, the Government-Construction-Strategy.pdf Government have agreed to scrap or improve well over A series of newsletters on its progress is published on half of the more than 1,200 regulations considered so the Cabinet Office website. The newsletters can be found far. Details of regulations being removed and being at: introduced are published by the Better Regulation Executive http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/resource-library/ in BIS on a six monthly basis. construction-newsletters 333W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 334W

Public Sector: Procurement Voluntary Organisations: Nottinghamshire

Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Office if he will review the requirements of pre-qualification if he will publish his communications with Nottinghamshire questionnaires for the purposes of enabling more small county council on their plans to cut funding to the firms to secure public procurement contracts. [97733] voluntary sector. [99472]

Mr Maude: I have already reviewed the requirements Mr Hurd [holding answer 12 March 2012]: I refer the for pre-qualification questionnaires as part of my hon. Member to the answer given to him by the Under- Department’s work to increase the proportion of public Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, procurement contracts awarded to Small and Medium-Sized the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell), on Enterprises (SMEs). 12 March 2012, Official Report, column 52W. Statistics

Mr Jenkin: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office WORK AND PENSIONS (1) whether the Office for National Statistics has issued Action for Employment any guidance to Government Departments relating to official statistics since May 2010; [100194] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) whether the National Statistician has issued any Work and Pensions what the value was of contracts guidance to Government Departments relating to given by his Department to A4e in each year from 2007 official statistics since May 2010; and if he will publish to 2011. [97570] any such guidance. [100195] Chris Grayling: The Department has awarded the Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the following contracts to A4e. responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Indicative Letter from Jil Matheson, dated 13 March 2012: Contract Programme Contract Package Area Year Value (£) As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Questions asking the Minister for the Cabinet Work East Midlands, 2011 1— Office whether (a) the Office for National Statistics has issued any Programme Nottinghamshire, guidance to government departments relating to official statistics Derbyshire since May 2010 and (b) the National Statistician has issued any Work London East 2011 1— guidance to government departments relating to official statistics Programme since May 2010; and if he will publish any such guidance (100194 Work Merseyside.Halton, 2011 1— and 100195). Programme Cumbria, Lancashire The Office for National Statistics does not issue guidance to Work Thames Valley, 2011 1— other government departments. Programme Hampshire and IoW National Statistician’s guidance in support of the UK Statistics Work South Yorkshire 2011 1— Authority’s Code of Practice for Official Statistics is published Programme from time to time. Guidance on the Presentation and Publication Mandatory South East 2011 2,656,013 of Official Statistics; Quality, Methods and Harmonisation; Work Activity Confidentiality of Official Statistics; the Use of Administrative Jobcentre Plus Black Country 2009 6,083,500 or Management Information; and, Identifying Official Statistics Support were published between September 2009 and February 2010. The Contract guidance on the Use of Administrative or Management Information Jobcentre Plus North and Mid Wales 2009 5,221,716 was revised in December 2010. All guidance is available on the Support and South East Wales National Statistician’s pages of the UK Statistics Authority’s Contract website: Jobcentre Plus South Yorkshire and 2009 3,078,090 http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/ Support Derbyshire Contract Trade Unions Jobcentre Plus Hampshire and Isle of 2009 8,393,606 Support Wight and Berkshire Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Minister for the Contract and Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire Cabinet Office what (a) meetings and (b) other Jobcentre Plus West Yorkshire 2009 8,693,203 discussions (i) Ministers, (ii) special advisers and (iii) Support departmental officials have held with hon. Members on Contract trade union facility time since May 2010. [99090] Jobcentre Plus London 2009 35,000,000 Support Mr Maude: No meetings or discussions have taken Contract place with hon. Members on the matter of trade union Flexible New NE, Yorkshire and the 2— facility time since May 2010. The Government have Deal Humber and Tees announced their intention to commence a consultation Valley 2 shortly with the civil service trade unions on limiting Flexible New South Yorkshire and 2009 — Deal Derbyshire the amount of paid time civil servants can spend on Flexible New Suffolk and 2— trade union duties and activities, and ending the practice Deal Cambridgeshire, of having civil servants engaged full-time in trade union Norfolk, Lincolnshire representative roles. and Rutland 335W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 336W

The decision to award a payment from the FSF is the Indicative Contract responsibility of and at the discretion of the personal Programme Contract Package Area Year Value (£) adviser and could include:

2 Help with associated expenses, including childcare costs (provided Flexible New Black Country 2009 — they are not on the Work programme or Work Choice), for Deal parents participating in DWP approved activities and training 2 Flexible New Central London, 2009 — opportunities; Deal Lambeth, Southwark and Wandsworth Payments to parents to cover up front child care costs when 1 Dependent on company performance. moving into work; 2 Flexible New Deal contracts ended early on 1 September 2011. The Parents entering employment may be eligible for Childcare total value of these contracts up to the point of termination was Assist, where child care expenses can be paid for up to five days £157.5 million. in the seven days immediately before starting work. Written The contract values shown are indicative values for confirmation from the employer of the job start and that it would be for at least eight hours per week would be needed; the contract package area at the time the contract was let. If in receipt of a qualifying benefit and subject to certain eligibility conditions Childcare Subsidy can be paid directly to Details of contracts awarded to A4e during 2007 and the child care provider to a maximum of £87.50 per week for 2008 is not held centrally. To provide the information one child and £150 per week for two or more children up to a requested would incur disproportionate costs. maximum period of 52 weeks from when the parent first starts work. Atos Healthcare Employment and Support Allowance Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of the Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work suitability of Atos to undertake work for his Department; and Pensions if he will ensure that no cancer patients and whether such an assessment involved an assessment lose their contributory employment and support of the governance and leadership of Atos. [99108] allowance until planned changes to the way cancer patients are assessed for that benefit have been fully Chris Grayling: The award of contracts within DWP implemented. [98834] is conducted in accordance with procurement best practice and, as part of the assessment as to whether to award a Chris Grayling: From April 2012 onwards, claimants contract, the Department carries out a full evaluation of contributory employment and support allowance of the capabilities of the supplier including governance (ESA) in the Work Related Activity Group will have and leadership. Specifically for Atos, in relation to the their contributory benefit subjected to a time limit of direct contracts we have with them, the Department 12 months. People in the Support Group will not have carried out such evaluations prior to contract award. their benefit time-limited because they have the most severe health conditions or impairments and are the Children: Day Care least likely to move into work. People receiving income- related ESA will not have their benefit time-limited. Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Entitlement to ESA is not based on a person’s health Work and Pensions what support he provides for condition or disability, but rather on the way their jobseekers who require childcare to return to work. health condition or disability limits their functional [98831] capability. We are committed to ensuring that cancer patients receive their full entitlement. Our informal Chris Grayling: In order for parents to enter sustained consultation on accounting for the effects of cancer employment many will need to source and utilise formal treatment in the work capability assessment closes on 9 childcare. The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) March 2012. We will publish a consultation response in recognises the importance of child care as a key enabler due course which will outline our proposals. to work and improved outcomes for children, particularly those from disadvantaged families. Fraud DWP has an important role in ensuring that a work focus is integrated into the planning and delivery of Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work local childcare services and works locally with the Families and Pensions how many staff in his Department were Information Service who hold details of local child care working on counter-fraud in (a) 2009, (b) 2010, (c) and early year’s provision. 2011 and (d) 2012. [98467] DWP personal advisers consider the personal circumstances of each individual in order to calculate Chris Grayling: The Fraud Investigation Service (FIS) whether the customer will be better off in work. These is part of DWP and responsible for the investigation of calculations take into account the number of hours to all benefits administered by DWP.FIS pursue a criminal be worked, the number of children in the household sanction in all cases where the evidence gathered meets and the costs of registered child care. Advice is then the prosecutable standard. This may involve legal offered on appropriate help, including the child care proceedings being taken against people who defraud element of tax credits, they would be eligible for on the benefits system. Not all cases will be put before the starting work. courts as a prosecution. Less serious frauds will be dealt There are a number of options through the Flexible with by way of caution or administrative penalty where Support Fund (FSF) that can provide support to parents. it is appropriate to do so. 337W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 338W

FIS employed the following number of full-time It is not possible to quantify precisely what effect this equivalent staff working on counter-fraud activities has had on the rate at which individuals leave JSA. between March 2009 and January 2012. However, any assessment of current figures needs to take account of the fact that if the current practice of Number of full-time equivalent continuing to count individuals on Government staff programmes within the JSA statistics had been in place March 2009 2,778 in 2010 and earlier the off-flow rates for those periods March 2010 2,760 would have been lower than recorded at the time. March 2011 3,195 Proportion of inflow leaving JSA within certain periods January 2012 2,876 Percentage 3 6 9 12 18 24 Internal Investigations, part of DWP Internal Audit months months months months months months and Investigations, is responsible for investigating allegations of fraud and other serious wrongdoing by DWP staff 2010 and contractors (including providers). The whole number August 57 77 86 92 95 98 of full-time equivalent staff employed by Internal September 57 78 87 92 95 98 Investigations over the past four years is as follows: October587888929598 Number of full-time equivalent November 59 78 88 92 95 98 staff December 59 79 89 92 95 98 March 2009 71 March 2010 69 March 2011 58 2011 March 2012 49 January 57 78 88 93 96 98 Where allegations of potential fraud or irregularities February 54 78 88 93 96 98 arise, they continue to be investigated by professionally trained staff, who refer the matter to the police where March527787939698 they believe the matter is serious. April 52 76 87 92 96 98 May537587929698 Homelessness June 54 74 87 92 96 98 July 53 73 86 92 96 98 Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for August 53 73 85 91 96 98 Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of September 53 73 84 91 96 98 the potential effect of implementation of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 on the number of individuals and October567383909698 families classed as homeless in (a) Wirral and (b) November 57 73 83 90 96 98 England. [98849] December 58 73 83 89 96 98 Chris Grayling: The Welfare Reform Act 2012 introduces a wide range of reforms to make the benefits and tax credits system fairer and simpler by: creating the right 2012 incentives to get more people into work by ensuring January 56 74 82 88 95 98 work always pays; protecting the most vulnerable in our Note: society; and delivering fairness to those claiming benefit These off-flow rates are derived from aggregate data on JSA inflows, caseloads by duration and off-flows by duration. The data are used to and to the tax payer. calculate the number of people each month reaching a certain duration Impact assessments for measures brought in by the in their JSA claim. These threshold flows are then compared back to Act are available on the Department’s website. the JSA inflow in an earlier month. The threshold flow as a proportion of the earlier inflow gives the survival rate. One minus the survival rate gives the off-flow rate. Jobseeker’s Allowance Source: www.nomisweb.co.uk Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and All figures are three-month rolling averages. Pensions what proportion of jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) Office for Nuclear Regulation: Lost Property claimants were flowed off JSA respectively within three, six, nine, 12, 18 and 24 months of being on JSA in each of the last 18 months. [97621] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what meetings, briefings and discussions Chris Grayling: Estimated off-flow rates from jobseeker’s he has had with officials of the Office for Nuclear allowance are shown in the following table. It should be Regulation on the loss of a memory stick in India noted that it is misleading to make a direct comparison containing plans on Hartlepool nuclear power station; between current off-flow rates and those in 2010. This is and if he will make a statement. [100002] because recent figures have been affected by changes in policy that mean unemployed people are now less likely Chris Grayling: As Minister with responsibility for to be excluded from the jobseeker’s allowance statistics the Health and Safety Executive, including its agency as a result of their participation in Government-funded the Office for Nuclear Regulation (ONR), I have regular employment and training programmes. meetings with the ONR Chair and senior officials. 339W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 340W

I met with the ONR Chair and the Secretary to the it is appropriate to do so. FIS employs 2,876 full-time ONR Board on 23 February and discussed the loss of equivalent staff working on counter-fraud as at January an unencrypted memory stick by a member of ONR 2012. staff while in India. I was reassured that the memory Internal Investigations, part of DWP Internal Audit stick did not contain any significantly sensitive information. and Investigations, is responsible for investigating allegations An internal investigation was conducted and work is in of fraud and other serious wrongdoing by DWP staff hand to ensure that lessons are learnt. and contractors (including providers). The whole number Guidance to ensure staff are able to understand and of full-time equivalent staff currently employed by Internal adhere to HSE security policies and practices is published Investigations is 49. on HSE’s intranet. Universal Credit Remploy Simon Hughes: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions whether under the universal credit and Pensions what discussions he has had with the system 16 to 20 year-olds who are estranged from their Welsh Government on the planned closure of Remploy families will qualify for benefits without being subject factories. [100001] to conditionality measures if they spend at least 12 hours a week attending education or training. [99100] Maria Miller: The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions spoke with the First Minister of Wales on the Chris Grayling: Regulations later this year will set out morning of 7 March 2012 before the written ministerial the circumstances in which young people who are necessarily statement on Employment Support was laid. living away from their parents can qualify for universal credit while in non-advanced education and the extent I also spoke with Minister for Children, Education to which any work-related requirements will apply to and Lifelong Learning in the Welsh Government on the them. morning of 7 March 2012 before the written ministerial statement on Employment Support was laid. Work Capability Assessment I spoke with Minister for Children, Education and Lifelong Learning on 22 February 2012 about the Sayce Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Review. Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of A meeting was offered with me on 19 January in the effect that people being found fit to work following Wales but this was cancelled by the Minister for Children, a work capability assessment has had on the level of Education and Lifelong Learning. unemployment in the latest period for which figures are Additionally I wrote to the Minister for Children, available. [98801] Education and Lifelong Learning in November 2011 inviting him to contribute to the Inter Ministerial Group Chris Grayling: No assessment has been made and to on Disability Employment. do so would incur disproportionate cost. I wrote and spoke to the Minister for Children, The Government do not believe that it is acceptable Education and Lifelong Learning when the Sayce Review to write people off to a lifetime on benefits because they was launched last summer. have a health condition or impairment. Many people with health conditions are able to sustain and progress Social Security Benefits: Fraud in employment. Evidence points to the negative impacts of being without work and that appropriate work is generally good for people regardless of whether or not Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Work they are disabled or have a health condition. and Pensions how many benefit claimants are having money deducted from their payments as a result of Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for fraud. [98374] Work and Pensions how many people found fit to work Chris Grayling: Of the 58,000 claimants who have following a work capability assessment are now working committed fraudulent activity, and are currently in receipt in the latest period for which figures are available. of benefit, 51,000 are having money deducted from [98802] their payments. Chris Grayling: These data are not routinely available. Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Work However, DWP has commissioned research into this and Pensions how many staff in his Department are as part of the wider ESA evaluation. working on counter-fraud. [98525] Work Capability: Cancer Chris Grayling: The Fraud Investigation Service (FIS) is part of DWP and responsible for the investigation of Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work all benefits administered by DWP.FIS pursue a criminal and Pensions when the Government expects to introduce sanction in all cases where the evidence gathered meets its proposals to improve the work capability assessment the prosecutable standard. This may involve legal for cancer patients. [98833] proceedings being taken against people who defraud the benefits system. Not all cases will be put before the Chris Grayling: Our informal consultation on accounting courts as a prosecution. Less serious frauds will be dealt for the effects of cancer treatment in the work capability with by way of caution or administrative penalty where assessment (WCA) closed on 9 March 2012. 341W Written Answers14 MARCH 2012 Written Answers 342W

We are currently analysing these responses and until constituency and (b) Wales have taken part in the work we have done so it would be inappropriate to make experience programme since January 2011. [98710] comment on any changes to the WCA. Chris Grayling: I am unable to provide the data We will publish a consultation response in due course requested as these figures have not been published. Any which will outline our proposals. locally held information will not be sufficiently robust to meet National Statistics or Official Statistics publication Work Experience: Wales standard. I can however confirm that the work experience Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work programme has been taken up by hundreds of employers and Pensions how many employers based in (a) Aberconwy throughout Wales. ORAL ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 239 INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued Biofuels...... 245 Syria ...... 239 Democratic Republic of the Congo ...... 241 Topical Questions ...... 246 Development Assistance ...... 244 Women’s Rights...... 242 Ethiopia...... 243 Malaria...... 243 Palestinian Territories ...... 240 PRIME MINISTER ...... 248 Somalia...... 245 Engagements...... 248 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 19WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 22WS Executive Pay (Consultation on Enhanced Shareholder Westminster Foundation for Democracy ...... 22WS Voting Rights)...... 19WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 23WS DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 20WS European Union Justice and Home Affairs Measures...... 23WS Diamond Jubilee Civic Honours Competition ...... 20WS Hate Crime (Government Action Plan) ...... 24WS

EDUCATION...... 21WS TREASURY ...... 20WS Adoption Action Plan...... 21WS Tax and Customs Co-operation Programme...... 20WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 264W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Banks: Foreign Workers...... 264W continued Business ...... 265W Homelessness...... 244W Business: Loans ...... 265W Housing ...... 244W Business: Regulation ...... 266W Landlords: Private Rented Housing...... 244W Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme ...... 266W Local Government: Procurement...... 245W EU Grants and Loans...... 267W Parish Councils: Bureaucracy ...... 245W Exports: Kurdistan ...... 267W Social Rented Housing: West Midlands ...... 245W Film: Intellectual Property...... 267W Urban Areas: Coastal Areas ...... 245W Foreign Investment in UK ...... 268W Job Creation: Private Sector...... 268W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 238W London Development Agency: Pay...... 268W Food ...... 238W Manufacturing Industries ...... 269W Regulation ...... 238W Manufacturing Industries: Government Assistance ...... 269W Overseas Trade: Tunisia ...... 269W Public Consultation ...... 270W DEFENCE...... 320W Shops: Empty Property...... 270W Afghanistan ...... 320W South West Regional Development Agency: Aircraft Carriers ...... 320W Government Procurement Card ...... 270W Armed Forces: Life Insurance...... 322W UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security Army: Recruitment ...... 323W Organisation: Oil...... 270W BAE Systems ...... 324W Yorkshire Forward: Pay ...... 271W Bahrain...... 324W Clyde Submarine Base: Safety...... 324W CABINET OFFICE...... 329W Falkland Islands ...... 324W Charities ...... 330W Food ...... 325W Childbirth ...... 330W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 326W Citizenship...... 331W Navy ...... 327W Civil Servants: Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 331W Radar: Wind Power...... 328W Departmental Regulation ...... 331W Regulation ...... 328W Employment: Young People...... 332W Territorial Army: Recruitment...... 328W Government Departments: ICT...... 332W Lung Cancer ...... 329W EDUCATION...... 317W Public Sector: Construction ...... 332W Children: Abuse...... 317W Public Sector: Procurement...... 333W Drugs: Education...... 318W Statistics...... 333W Families ...... 318W Trade Unions ...... 333W Regulation ...... 319W Voluntary Organisations: Nottinghamshire ...... 334W Schools: Finance...... 320W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 243W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 285W Fire Services: Finance ...... 243W Carbon Sequestration ...... 285W Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS Coal Fired Power Stations: Carbon Sequestration ...... 285W AUTHORITY COMMITTEE—continued Electricity: Prices ...... 286W Members: Allowances...... 250W Energy: Billing ...... 287W Redundancy...... 251W Energy: International Cooperation ...... 288W Energy: Prices ...... 289W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 312W Energy Supply...... 287W AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria ...... 312W Nuclear Power Stations: Safety ...... 289W Argentina...... 313W Offshore Industry: Safety...... 290W Developing Countries: Private Sector ...... 313W Regulation ...... 290W G20 Countries ...... 312W Renewable Energy...... 291W Iraq...... 315W Renewable Energy: EU Action...... 292W Nepal ...... 313W Wind Power ...... 292W North Korea ...... 316W Overseas Aid...... 316W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Somalia...... 316W AFFAIRS...... 235W Sub-Saharan Africa ...... 317W Arable Farming: Research ...... 235W Eggs: Imports ...... 235W JUSTICE...... 293W Forests ...... 235W Alternatives to Prison: Wales ...... 293W Gangmasters Licensing Authority ...... 236W Counterfeit Manufacturing: Convictions ...... 294W Livestock: Production...... 237W Courts: Video Recordings ...... 293W Schmallenberg Virus ...... 237W Departmental Food ...... 293W Drugs: Illegal ...... 295W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 246W Drugs: Testing ...... 297W British Indian Ocean Territory...... 246W European Court of Human Rights ...... 298W Central Africa...... 246W Fraud: EU Law...... 298W Embassies: Expenditure ...... 247W Knives: Crime ...... 298W Iran...... 247W Members: Correspondence ...... 299W Iraq...... 248W Prisons: Employment...... 300W North Korea ...... 248W Prisons: Visits ...... 300W Turkey...... 249W Stalking ...... 300W Young Offenders: Wales...... 301W HEALTH...... 271W Youth Custody: Islington...... 311W Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs...... 271W Cancer ...... 272W TRANSPORT ...... 238W Cancer: Drugs...... 273W Aviation ...... 238W Carers ...... 273W Departmental Procurement...... 240W Clinical Commissioning Group...... 274W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 240W Disadvantaged: Families ...... 274W Motorways: Closures ...... 242W Eyesight: Surgery ...... 275W Railways: Greater London...... 242W General Practitioners...... 276W Railways: Hertfordshire ...... 242W General Practitioners: Bexley...... 277W Railways: Information Services...... 243W Gynaecology: Medical Treatments...... 278W West Coast Railway Line ...... 243W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 278W Inflammatory Bowel Disease ...... 279W TREASURY ...... 257W Medical Equipment: EU Action ...... 280W Air Travel...... 257W Mortality Rates...... 280W Banks: Iceland ...... 257W Mortality Rates: East Midlands...... 281W Business: York ...... 258W NHS: Disclosure of Information ...... 282W Child Benefit: Rutherglen ...... 259W NHS: Pay...... 282W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 259W NHS: Private Sector...... 283W Film ...... 259W Obesity...... 283W Food ...... 259W Queen Mary’s Hospital Sidcup ...... 284W Income Tax: Tax Rates and Bands...... 260W Regulation ...... 284W Loans: Local Government ...... 260W Tobacco: Packaging ...... 284W Regulation ...... 261W Revenue and Customs...... 262W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 252W Smuggling...... 263W Bank Services...... 252W Tax Allowances: Film ...... 264W Boothby Report ...... 252W Taxation: Africa...... 264W Crime: Nature Conservation...... 253W Thames Estuary Airport ...... 264W Crimes of Violence: Pedicabs...... 253W VAT: Tax Rates and Bands ...... 264W Drugs...... 253W EU Justice and Home Affairs ...... 254W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 334W EU Justice and Home Affairs Council ...... 254W Action for Employment ...... 334W Families ...... 255W Atos Healthcare...... 335W Firearms: Forensic Science...... 255W Children: Day Care...... 335W Gold: Theft...... 255W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 336W Metropolitan Police Service: Finance...... 256W Fraud...... 336W Police ...... 256W Homelessness...... 337W Telecommunications: Databases ...... 257W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 337W Office for Nuclear Regulation: Lost Property ...... 338W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 251W Remploy ...... 339W House of Commons: Catering ...... 251W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 339W Universal Credit...... 340W INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY Work Capability Assessment...... 340W STANDARDS AUTHORITY COMMITTEE ...... 250W Work Capability: Cancer...... 340W Manpower ...... 250W Work Experience: Wales ...... 341W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 239] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for International Development Prime Minister

Food Waste [Col. 261] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Kerry McCarthy)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill [Col. 266] Considered in Committee Read the Third time and passed

Dangerous Dogs [Col. 341] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall First-Time Buyers [Col. 77WH] Future Mobile Competition [Col. 102WH] Women’s Aid [Col. 110WH] Freedom of Information Act [Col. 131WH] Local Media [Col. 139WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 19WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 235W] [see index inside back page]