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Wednesday Volume 533 12 October 2011 No. 205

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 12 October 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 315 12 OCTOBER 2011 316

Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Is my hon. House of Commons Friend aware of the reports from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the Prince’s Trust, which make it clear Wednesday 12 October 2011 that the fivefold increase in youth unemployment in Wales is the legacy left to this Government by those on the Labour Benches? Given that context, and bearing in The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock mind the Prince’s Trust’s success in getting 75% of young people into employment, work or training, will he commit the Government to working closely with the PRAYERS Prince’s Trust and involving it closely in the Work programme? [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr Jones: Like my hon. Friend, I commend the work of the Prince’s Trust, and my right hon. Friend the BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS Secretary of State has already had meetings with its representatives. I also remind the House that the Welsh TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL Government have a significant role to play. They are in PROVISIONS)BILL [LORDS](BY ORDER) charge of economic development and are responsible Second Reading opposed and deferred until Tuesday for training, which is key to reducing youth unemployment. 18 October (Standing Order No. 20). Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Is cutting the benefits for young people in order to encourage them to search for non-existent jobs not just a cruel mockery of their Oral Answers to Questions misfortune?

Mr Jones: I think that the hon. Gentleman will find that the Work programme, which this Government brought WALES in, has introduced a level of tailored support for young people and others seeking work. The most important The Secretary of State was asked— thing for people in the position of those he mentions is to regain work as quickly as possible. Youth Unemployment Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The Minister 1. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): What recent will be aware of the excellent work on youth training assessment she has made of the level of youth undertaken by Ceredigion Training in my constituency, unemployment in Wales; and if she will make a which equips young people with the skills they need to statement. [72884] gain work. Does he therefore share my concern that the Welsh Assembly Government have cut the work-based The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales learning grant to Ceredigion Training, which means (Mr David Jones): The latest youth unemployment figures fewer apprenticeships and fewer opportunities for young for Wales are disappointing, and I am sure that there is people to get back into work? still much for us to do to ensure that the recession does not leave a legacy of workless young people. We will Mr Jones: As my hon. Friend points out, the issue of ensure that young unemployed people get the personalised economic development is firmly in the hands of the help that they need to find full-time permanent jobs. As Welsh Assembly Government, as indeed is training. part of our reform of the welfare system, we are introducing That is entirely a matter for them, but I am bound to say a number of measures to support young people in that, given the current economic backdrop, I was surprised finding employment. that the economic development budget was cut last week. Chris Ruane: Forty-six per cent. of the workers in my constituency, and 45% of the workers in the hon. Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): One of the flagship Gentleman’s constituency, work in the public sector. Government policies that was meant to help the private The Government want to sack up to 25% of those sector to grow in Wales was the national insurance workers: the theory is that they will be employed by the holiday. That was meant to improve the prospects of private sector. Given today’s huge increases in 45,000 companies in Wales, but it has actually supported unemployment, where are the jobs going to come from just 300—less than 0.7% of them. Will the Minister tell for those public sector workers? the Chancellor that it is not working in Wales and he really needs to pull his finger out and help the 16,000 people Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman will know that this who have found themselves on the dole as a result of Government inherited the most appalling economic this Government? legacy from the Labour party. That party seems to think that there is a bottomless purse to fund public Mr Jones: The hon. Gentleman will find that the sector jobs, irrespective of the economic state of the increase in unemployment is directly referable to country. However, I am sure he will pleased to know the incompetent management of the economy by the that in his constituency there are, according to the latest Government whom he supported. Of course my right figures, 273 vacancies, and I suggest that he encourage hon. Friend the Chancellor keeps such matters under his constituents to seek those places. constant review. 317 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 318

Inward Investment make his representations to the Welsh Government himself; I am sure that they will be interested in what he 2. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What discussions she has to say. has had with her ministerial colleagues on inward investment in Wales. [72885] Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): As the Secretary of State will be aware, at least two coal mines in south The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Wales, Aberpergwm and Unity, have been in receipt of I am keen to attract more inward investment to Wales, inward investment that is growing their employment as that is crucial to the recovery of the Welsh economy. I and output. May I thank both mines for voluntarily am working closely with ministerial colleagues, the Welsh helping to resource the rescue and investigation work Government and business to create an environment following the terrible tragedy at the Gleision mine in the where companies choose to come to invest. One of our Swansea valley that caused the death of four experienced best adverts for Wales is our fantastic Welsh rugby colliers, my constituents Charles Breslin, Philip Hill, team, and we all wish them well for their game at the Garry Jenkins and David Powell? May I also thank the weekend. They are a powerful advert for inward investment Secretary of State for her support over this tragedy, in Wales. which has included ensuring that the Government have agreed to provide the 25% uplift—equivalent to the John Howell: Inward investment can be materially charitable gift aid that could have been claimable—to helped through enterprise zones. Does my right hon. the total raised by the Swansea Valley miners appeal Friend therefore regret the Welsh Administration’s delay fund, which is now rising towards £400,000, which of six months in making a decision on enterprise zones? shows an extraordinary and heartfelt public response? Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend is right, and echoes what May I also thank the mines rescue service, the principal I have said on many occasions. I work as closely as I can inspector of mines and the South Wales police for their with the Welsh Government and I encouraged them to dedicated and at times heroic work at Gleision? introduce enterprise zones, but we had six months of wasted opportunities. There is every indication that the Mrs Gillan: Like the right hon. Gentleman, I pay enterprise zones might look similar to those that have tribute to those who so valiantly led the rescue efforts in been announced across the border in England. Two the immediate aftermath of last month’s tragedy at the tranches have been announced in England and just the Gleision mine, and I pay tribute to the right hon. one in Wales, but I am delighted that the Welsh Government Gentleman for his work in his constituency. He and I have finally announced enterprise zones for Welsh saw those efforts at first hand, and I know the impact businesses. that that event will have had on his local community. As the shadow Secretary of State says, I have agreed that Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): The Secretary of the Government will contribute to the Swansea Valley State is right to mention the Welsh rugby team and the miners appeal fund to cover the amount that the fund way that it can highlight Wales. When the Prime Minister would have been able to claim back as gift aid while its of the United Kingdom comes in and sits next to her application for charitable status was being processed. I later, for Prime Minister’s questions, will she ask him to am pleased to say that charitable status has now been put the Welsh flag up over No. 10 Downing street this secured, and we in the Wales Office are working with weekend, as he did with the cross of St George for the the fund organisers on the details of the Government England football team during the World cup? payment. [Interruption.] Mr Hain: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for Mr Speaker: Order. Hon. Members wish to hear the that. I believe that there are a number of important Secretary of State’s reply to this probing question. lessons from the Gleision tragedy for the future of mines safety and rescue. Will she therefore ensure that Mrs Gillan: I can heartily endorse that recommendation. the Government delays the report of Professor Lofstedt, Whether the powers that be will be able to fly that flag I due by the end of this month, on regulations covering do not know, so I cannot give him that guarantee, but it mining, among other sectors, so that account can be will be flying proudly above Gwydyr house. taken of a submission that I plan for her and her Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Meeting Cabinet colleagues? businesses in Wales, I am always impressed by the resilience they are showing during these difficult times. Mrs Gillan: I understand that Professor Lofstedt is One issue that they always raise with me is that of conducting an independent review of the overall regulatory business rates. What discussions has the Secretary of framework covering health and safety legislation and its State had with the Assembly to build on the excellent effectiveness. He issued a call for evidence in May and is work that local authorities are doing to reduce the now in the process of writing up his report. As this is an burden of business rates to companies that wish to independent review, it would not be appropriate for my expand? right hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for employment or the Government to intervene in the Mrs Gillan: As the hon. Gentleman knows, that is a timing of the report. However, I am sure that any matter for the Welsh Government, but I think the Welsh lessons that can be learned from the investigation into Government must carefully consider the conditions on the tragic events at the Gleision mine will be incorporated the other side of the border in England, and ensure that into any recommendations from Professor Lofstedt’s inward investing companies and other companies in report that are taken forward by the Health and Safety Wales are not disadvantaged in terms of taxation or Executive. I look forward to receiving the right hon. non-tariff barriers. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to Gentleman’s submission on this subject. 319 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 320

Private Sector Job Creation Mrs Gillan: The hon. Lady makes a valid point. I know that the labour market statistics today have not 3. Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): What brought good news, but I am pleased to report that recent discussions she has had with her ministerial there are 90,000 vacancies across the UK at the moment, colleagues and others on job creation in the private including 12,638 in Wales. With the excellent job that is sector in Wales. [72886] being carried out by Working Links and Jobcentre Plus, there are going to be many opportunities for people to 4. Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): What recent find their way into work. discussions she has had with her ministerial colleagues and others on job creation in the private sector in Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): This morning we have Wales. [72887] seen a shocking increase in unemployment, with 16,000 more people in Wales desperate to find work—a massive The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): 13.5% increase over the past three months—as a direct I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues result of this Government’s policies. Given this huge and other interested parties on ways in which we can rise in unemployment, plus the squeeze on household stimulate job creation in the private sector in Wales. We incomes in Wales as a result of the Government’s increase must create an environment in which the private sector in VAT, the reduction in the real purchasing power of can grow and prosper in order for businesses to create pensions and the cruel slashing of the winter fuel allowance much-needed jobs in Wales, and we will continue to at a time of rocketing energy and food prices, can the work with the Welsh Government to achieve that aim. Secretary of State explain how her Government’s policies will stimulate consumer demand in Wales and get growth Neil Parish: I thank the Secretary of State for that going? How on earth will they stem the spate of high answer. Will she look at the Bristol channel and the street shop closures and put some sparkle back into— Severn, where there is the second highest rise and fall in tide in the world? A great deal of power could be Mr Speaker: I think we have got the thrust of it; we produced there and a great number of jobs could be are grateful to the hon. Lady. created to harness that power through tidal pools. May I ask her what we are doing about that? Mrs Gillan: May I extend a warm welcome to the hon. Lady, who is now on the Front Bench? She and I Mrs Gillan: I think my hon. Friend knows that we have had many conversations, and I wish her well. I am have looked at this, and we do not intend to review the sure that she will complement the right hon. Member Severn tidal power situation before 2015—but it would for Neath (Mr Hain) in her new role, and the Under- be irresponsible to rule out such an important source of Secretary and I would like to extend our good wishes to renewable energy for ever, as circumstances are likely to her. change down the line. As I have said before, to the I take no joy from the figures this morning, but I do shadow Secretary of State for Wales, if private funding take joy from the fact that we have announced sector-based for this project comes forward, we will consider it work academies. I hope that the hon. Lady will use her particularly seriously. good offices with her party, and explain why the Labour party and the Welsh Government are cutting the enterprise Mel Stride: As my right hon. Friend will know, under budget, rather than using the money to freeze council the previous Government there was far too much onerous tax in Wales, as it is being frozen in England. employment legislation, much of which served simply as a brake on the growth of small and medium-sized Employment enterprises both in Wales and throughout the United Kingdom. Does she therefore welcome, as I do, the fact 5. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): What assessment that the Government will be doubling the period to she has made of the effects of the Government’s qualify to go to an unfair dismissal tribunal, and that economic policy on employment levels in Wales. fees will also be charged thereafter to stop— [72888] Mr Speaker: We are grateful to the hon. Gentleman. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): Through our economic policies, we Mrs Gillan: I think my hon. Friend knows that we are are committed to delivering strong and sustainable growth trying very hard to create the right conditions to encourage balanced across the whole UK, including Wales, rather private sector growth, and particularly to make life than concentrated in London and the south-east, as it easier for SMEs. He will know that we are also exempting was under the previous Government. We have made it them from audit requirements that will save SMEs in clear that our top priority remains tackling the deficit the UK up to £200 million a year. It is particularly while creating the right conditions for the private sector important that we are exempting micro-businesses and to expand in Wales and create jobs. start-ups from new domestic regulation until 2014. The point that he has raised is just another way in which we Albert Owen: I welcome measures taken by the Welsh are trying to help private business to grow in the UK. Government to stimulate the economy in Wales, but the UK Government, at a time of high unemployment, Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): A Sheffield high inflation and rising borrowing, have taken money Hallam report published over the summer estimated out of the economy by putting up VAT. Does the that 30,000 people in Wales could lose their incapacity Minister agree with the Federation of Small Businesses benefit as a result of the Government’s welfare changes, that it is time to consider a temporary reduction in VAT and therefore be looking for work. How optimistic is to stimulate the economy, particularly in sectors such as the Secretary of State that the private sector will be able construction and tourism, to increase employment in to create that level of employment? Wales? 321 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 322

Mr Jones: Those are matters that my right hon. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Can the Secretary Friend the Chancellor keeps under constant review, but of State update the House on how the Wales Office is I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman does not appear supporting economic growth in the newly announced to regret, as I do, that the Welsh Assembly Government enterprise zones, and will she meet representatives of have decided to cut their economic development budget my council, possible employers and me to talk about at this difficult time. that? In Blaenau Gwent in the past 12 months, unemployment has gone up by a shocking 11.7%. Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Does the Minister accept that enterprise zones could create private Mrs Gillan: I need to remind the hon. Gentleman sector employment in some of the most needy parts of that the enterprise zones in Wales are a devolved matter Wales? Does he not think that the Welsh Government’s that falls to the Welsh Government. I would ask him to approach has been somewhat disjointed at best? Some make his representations, as I did on his behalf and on prosperous parts have become enterprise zones, but behalf of many other Members of the House, to the some of the most needy parts, such as Barry in my Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science constituency, have not. in Wales. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman what we are doing. We are increasing capital spending on roads and Mr Speaker: May I remind the Minister that he is not railways, creating a superfast broadband network, and responsible for the Welsh Assembly Government, so a cutting corporation tax and regulation. We are doing an pithy reply would be in order? awful lot to support businesses, and I want the Welsh Government to rise to the challenge, too. [Interruption.] Mr David Jones: In all pithiness, I agree with my hon. Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many noisy Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) private conversations taking place in the Chamber. I that enterprise zones are key to economic development, want to hear both the questions and the answers. and I regret that the Welsh Assembly Government have still not clarified their intentions in that regard. Feed-in Tariffs

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) 7. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): If she will assess the (PC): Lloyds TSB’s Wales business activity index for effects of changes to the feed-in tariff scheme on the September reported the sharpest decrease in private solar industry in Wales. [72890] sector employment for 27 months. What specific The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales countervailing measures is the Minister arguing for (Mr David Jones): We will consult on proposed changes with the Treasury to give the Welsh economy a competitive to the feed-in tariff scheme, and will produce an impact edge? assessment setting out the effects across the UK in the autumn. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State Mr Jones: I am sure that, like me, the hon. Gentleman and I have spoken to a number of businesses across the will welcome today’s announcement of sector-based UK and understand their concerns in this regard. work academies. That will apply to the whole United Kingdom, including Wales. It will give young jobseekers Ian Lucas: Labour’s feed-in tariff created 300 jobs in the tools that they need to find employment more easily. my constituency.The Tories have increased unemployment in Wrexham in the past six months by 12.6%. Why are Economic Growth they reversing the successful Labour policy that is creating private sector jobs, when they are supposed to be favouring 6. Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): What jobs and growth? recent discussions she has had on promoting economic growth in Wales. [72889] Mr Jones: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that Sharp is an extremely important employer in his The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): constituency. He will be aware that the feed-in tariff I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues, scheme favoured large-scale solar farms, not the domestic the Welsh Government and other organisations on installations, but I hope—indeed, I am sure—that he promoting economic growth in Wales. My business will welcome the announcement last month that Sharp advisory group is meeting for the fourth time later this has secured a multi-million-pound contract with Wrexham month. We discuss a wide range of issues affecting the county council to install solar panels in 3,000 local Welsh economy, and that is fed into the Prime Minister’s authority homes. own business advisory group. Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD): The solar technology industry is just one of the growing green Julian Smith: I thank my right hon. Friend for that technology industries that could be vital to boosting job answer. Does she agree that as well as exempting small creation in Wales. Does the Minister agree that strong businesses in Wales and the rest of the UK from domestic Government support for those industries will not put regulation, the Government must continue their radical the country out of business, but will stimulate investment approach to reducing red tape and regulation from in this area and help the Welsh economy to recover? Brussels? Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is entirely right. This Mrs Gillan: I agree with my hon. Friend. It is extremely Government are committed to pursuing the growth of important in this day and age, when we are up against green industries in the United Kingdom. [Interruption.] such huge economic barriers, that we ensure that it is easy for businesses to start up and thrive in the UK, so Mr Speaker: Order. It is still far too noisy. I know the that the UK becomes the best place to do business. House will be united in wanting to hear Mr Peter Bone. 323 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 324

Devolution Mr Llwyd: As the right hon. Lady says that the report will be produced in 2013, will she ensure that there will 8. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What be a provisional legislative slot if the commission says progress has been made on establishing a commission that some legislative changes are necessary within this on devolution and funding in Wales; and if she will Parliament? make a statement. [72891] Mrs Gillan: The right hon. Gentleman has enough experience of legislation in this House to know that that 10. Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): is not something I can commit to, but let me tell him What recent representations she has received on the that the report will come in two parts. The first report proposed Calman-style commission for Wales; and if will, we hope, come at the end of 2012, and the later she will make a statement. [72893] report on the shape of powers between the UK Government and the Welsh Government will come towards the end The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): of 2013. I will bear in mind what he has said. Yesterday I announced in a written ministerial statement to the House the terms of reference and membership of the commission on devolution in Wales, the Silk PRIME MINISTER commission. The commission will review the present financial and constitutional arrangements in Wales. It The Prime Minister was asked— will look first at the financial accountability of the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government Engagements and will aim to report in the autumn of next year. Following that, the commission will examine the current Q1. [72829] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): constitutional arrangements and will report in 2013. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 12 October. Mr Bone: In Wales public expenditure is more than The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure £9,000 per person. In my constituency it is £2,000 less. that the whole House will wish to join me in paying Yet again, Labour has left Wales in a mess, and Mrs Bone tribute to Lance Corporal Jonathan McKinlay from wants to know what the Prime Minister and the Secretary 1st Battalion the Rifles and Marine David Fairbrother of State are going to do about it. from Kilo Company 42 Commando Royal Marines. They were both extremely committed and courageous Mrs Gillan: Mrs Bone, I am sure, is absolutely right servicemen who have given their lives in the service of when she says that the economy of this country was left our country. Our thoughts and deepest sympathies should in a complete mess by that lot over there on the Opposition be with their families, friends and colleagues. Benches—but my hon. Friend has asked a fairly complex This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues question about the Barnett formula. The Barnett formula and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I is not being examined by the Silk commission; it is the shall have further such meetings later today. subject of bilateral communications involving the Treasury and the devolved Administration Governments, because Sir Alan Beith: The whole House will want to endorse it is a matter that concerns the whole of the UK. The the Prime Minister’s words about our heroic service Silk commission is focused on matters affecting Wales personnel and their families, and I think that most of us directly. also want to see the earliest possible withdrawal of our combat troops from Afghanistan. Mr Llwyd: I very much welcome yesterday’s What will the Prime Minister do about that group of announcement on the commission on devolution in women already in their late 50s who have seen their Wales. That was a commitment of the coalition Government state pension age rise from 60 to 64 and now face a in Wales. Why are the Holtham recommendations further two-year increase from 64 to 66? The coalition specifically not being considered by the commission? If had to reform the pension system and will be fairer to all those recommendations are going to be dismissed women, but this anomaly needs addressing. there will be difficulty in ensuring cross-party support, which is very important for the commission. The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend is right to identify that it is of course right to equalise men and women’s state pension ages. That has been a long-term Mrs Gillan: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for goal shared across the House of Commons. I also think giving me the opportunity to correct him, because I that it is right to raise the retirement age to 66, as we think he has misunderstood the terms of reference, have done. We know that a large group of people are which were agreed across all four parties. I am delighted affected by this transition and that some people will to see his party taking part in the work of the Silk potentially have to work for an extra two years. We are commission. What the Silk commission will be looking looking at what transitional help we can give to this at is the second part of the Holtham report, which I group of people and will make an announcement shortly. know the First Minister is not keen on because it is about taxation powers. What is excluded is merely the Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the Barnett formula and something called the “Holtham Prime Minister in paying tribute to Lance Corporal floor”, which is part of the subject of the bilateral Jonathan McKinlay from 1st Battalion the Rifles and communications. May I reassure the right hon. Gentleman Marine David Fairbrother from Kilo Company that I want to move forward, if I can, on the basis of 42 Commando Royal Marines. They were exceptionally consensus? I am delighted that his party has worked courageous men who died serving their country and our with me on the commission so far. deepest condolences go to their family and friends. 325 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 326

A year ago, during our exchanges, the Prime Minister plan. I would ask, where is his credible growth plan? justified his economic policy by saying that unemployment Why is it that the former Chancellor of the Exchequer would fall this year, next year and the year after. Given said this: that unemployment has risen by 114,000, is it not time “If you don’t have a credible economic policy, you are simply he admitted that his plan is not working? not at the races”? Whyisit—[Interruption.] The Prime Minister: First of all, these are very disappointing figures that have been announced today Mr Speaker: Order. Whatever people think of what is and every job that is lost is a tragedy for the person being said on either side of the House, they must not concerned and their family. That is why this Government shout their heads off. The Prime Minister and the will do everything we possibly can to help get people Leader of the Opposition will be heard, and that is the into work. That is why we have the Work programme, end of it. the biggest back-to-work programme since the 1930s, which will help 2.5 million people. That is why we have The Prime Minister: The fact is that our plan is welfare reform to make sure that it always pays for supported by the CBI, by the Institute of Directors, by people to be in work. That is why we are reforming our the business organisations, by the IMF, and by the schools, including raising the participation age to 18 so OECD. The right hon. Gentleman cannot even get that we end the scandal of 16 and 17-year-olds left on support from his own former Cabinet Ministers. The the dole, and that is why we have a record number of former Home Secretary says this: apprenticeships—360,000 this year. I accept that we “I think the economic proposition that Labour puts at the have to do more to get our economy moving and get moment is unconvincing.” jobs for our people, but we must not abandon the plan If the right hon. Gentleman cannot convince his own that has given us record low interest rates. party, how can he convince the country?

Edward Miliband: We hear the same script month Edward Miliband: The Conservative Chair of the after month. It is not working. Does the Prime Minister Prime Minister’s Select Committee says that his policies not realise that today’s figures show that it is not working? on growth are “inconsistent” and “incoherent”. He It is his failure that means today in Britain we have obviously cannot convince him, can he? nearly 1 million young people out of work. Why does he Of course, typically, the Prime Minister did not answer not accept some responsibility for doing something the question on women’s unemployment, so let me tell about it? him: women’s unemployment is at its highest since 1988—the last time there was a Conservative Government The Prime Minister: I accept responsibility for everything in power. I have to say that instead of apologising four that happens in our economy, but I just sometimes wish months late to my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey that people who were in government for 13 years accepted (Ms Eagle) for saying, “Calm down, dear”, he should be some responsibility for the mess they made. This apologising to the women of this country for what he is Government have pledged to do everything we can to doing to our economy. get our economy moving. That is why we have cut petrol tax and corporation tax, why we are reforming the Let me ask the Prime Minister another question that planning system, why we introduced the regional growth maybe this time he will answer. Last year, in his Budget, fund, why we are forcing the banks to lend money and the Chancellor announced a flagship policy on growth. why we have created 22 enterprise zones. I know what He said that the national insurance holiday for start-up the right hon. Gentleman wants: he wants us to change firms would help 400,000 businesses. Can the Prime course on reducing our deficit. If we changed course on Minister tell the House how many businesses have reducing our deficit, we would end up with interest rates actually taken part? like those in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece and we would send our economy into a tailspin. The Prime Minister: Seven thousand. On the issue of women in work, of course I want to Edward Miliband: I want the Prime Minister to change see more women in work, and there are 50,000 more course so that he has a credible plan to get people back women in work than at the time of the last election. It is to work in this country. What he does not seem to this Government who have introduced free child care understand is that month after month, as unemployment for all vulnerable two-year-olds, who have extended goes up and the number of people claiming benefit goes child care for three and four-year-olds, who have increased up, the costs go up and fewer people are in work and the child tax credit by £290, and who, for the first time, paying taxes. To have a credible plan on the deficit, you have announced that we will be giving child care to all need a credible plan for growth, and he does not have people working fewer than 16 hours, helping hundreds one. It is not just young people who are suffering. Can of thousands of women and families out of poverty the Prime Minister tell us when was the last time that into work and into a better life. That is what we are unemployment among women reached the levels it has doing. today? The question the right hon. Gentleman must address is the big picture, which is this: he cannot convince the The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is former Home Secretary, the former Trade Minister or wrong on his figures. There are 50,000 more women the former Chancellor that he has got any idea of what in work than there were at the time of the election, there to do with the economy. The reason is that if we are 239,000 more people in work than at the time of adopted his plan, we would not be working with the the election, and there are 500,000 more private IMF to sort out the eurozone—we would be going to sector jobs. He specifically asks about a credible growth the IMF to ask for a loan. 327 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 328

Edward Miliband: In case the Prime Minister has not Q2. [72830] Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Will the realised, when the Chancellor says that 400,000 firms Prime Minister publish a full list of all the Ministers will benefit and only 7,000 are, that should tell him and Downing street staff who, since May 2010, have something: it should tell him that his policies are not met Mr Adam Werritty in an official or social capacity, working. That policy is not working; his plan is not including whether he as Prime Minister has met him? working. Why does he not, just for once, agree with us: cut VAT and put more money into people’s pockets, The Prime Minister: I am very happy to look at that. help the construction industry to get moving, and invest in getting young people back to work by having a Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con): Does the bankers’ bonus tax? Prime Minister agree that in light of the difficult times encountered by some of my constituents in South Ribble The Prime Minister: When is the Labour party going who work for BAE, it is even more important that this to learn that one cannot borrow one’s way out of a debt Government continue their excellent support for exports crisis? It left us the biggest deficit, the most leveraged and their continued investment in the development of banks and the most indebted households, and what is the Typhoon and new unmanned aerial vehicle systems? its answer? It is to borrow more money. Is it any wonder that the former Trade and Investment Minister, Digby The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. Jones, described the Labour leader’s conference speech as Obviously, the position at BAE has been of concern. “divisive and a kick in the teeth for the only sector that generates That is why we immediately put in place plans for an wealth that pays the tax and creates the jobs this country needs.”? enterprise zone on each side of the Pennines to help That is what a former Labour Minister said about a with that important business. BAE is a great British Labour policy. That is why the Labour leader has no company. It has a huge forward order book, not least credibility whatsoever. because of our defence budget, through which we are investing in Typhoons, aircraft carriers and unmanned Edward Miliband: What a terrible answer. I will take aerial drones. I will do everything I can to support that on the companies in this country that are not doing the company, including promoting its exports abroad. I right thing, such as the energy companies. We are seeing have had conversations with the Japanese and will soon change in the energy sector today because of what I be talking to the Saudi Arabians and others to do all said. that we can do to make sure that this great British company goes on being a great British success. On the day of the worst unemployment figures in 17 years, the Prime Minister is fighting to save the job of Q3. [72831] Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): the Defence Secretary, but doing nothing to save the Imperial Healthcare Trust, which offers outstanding jobs of hundreds of thousands of people up and down clinical care and research in three major hospitals in this country. There is one rule for the Cabinet and west London, is being forced to make 5% per annum another rule for everyone else. cuts for five years, so that is 25% of its £900 million a year budget. How does that fulfil the Prime Minister’s The Prime Minister: The previous Labour leader promise not to cut health services to my constituents? thought that he had saved the world; after that answer, I think that this Labour leader is Walter Mitty. The The Prime Minister: We are increasing NHS spending Labour party has to accept some responsibility for the throughout this Parliament, and, I have to say, that is a mess it made of the economy. It is the party that complete contrast with the Opposition’s policy. They borrowed too much, spent too much, left us with now have a new health spokesman. I was worried that I unregulated banks and left us with the mess that we would not have the same quantity of quotes from the have to clear up. When one sees those two sitting on the new health spokesman, but he has not disappointed. He Front Bench who worked for so long in the Treasury, said this—very clear, very plain: one has to ask, one would not bring back Fred Goodwin to sort out the banks, so why would one bring them “It is irresponsible to increase NHS spending in real terms”. back to sort out the economy? That is Labour’s position—that it is irresponsible to increase health spending. We disagree. Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Has my right hon. Friend noticed that since I put the point Q4. [72832] James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley to him last month, the head of our Serious Fraud Regis) (Con): Too many children in Britain today live in Office, Mr Richard Alderman, has publicly deplored families that do not provide them with the loving and the fact that no senior British bankers have been prosecuted stable environment that they deserve, and that has led for their irresponsibility, and has urged that legislation to many of our most pressing social problems. Would be introduced as soon as possible to empower his office the Prime Minister agree that this Government need to to prosecute such offenders? do all they can to help some of Britain’s most problem families? The Prime Minister: It is important that inquiries are conducted into what went wrong at RBS and HBOS, The Prime Minister: I completely agree with my hon. because we are left clearing up a mess made by the Friend. If we look at the evidence, we see that some of irresponsibility of others. If there is room for criminal the most troubled families in our country get a huge prosecutions, of course those should happen. Our number of interventions from the police, social services, responsibility is to ensure that we regulate the banks education and the rest of it, but no one is really getting and the financial industry properly in future. That is in there to help turn those families around, change what why we have put the Bank of England back at the heart they do and give them a better chance. So we are of the job. establishing a new unit under the leadership of Louise 329 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 330

Casey, who I think has been a superb official over the The Prime Minister: I will certainly look at what the past decade, and we are going to be putting huge hon. Gentleman says, but I looked at that decision in resources into turning around the 120,000 most troubled some detail at the time, having known well the families in our country. I think we can make a huge Forensic Science Service from when I worked at the difference for those families, and we can reduce the Home Office many years ago. The evidence was pretty burden that they place on the taxpayer at the same time. overwhelming that the model was not working and that change was needed. That is what has happened. Sometimes Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Will the it is better to make that change rather than endlessly Prime Minister instruct our ambassador in Kiev to review it. make representations on behalf of the Government and Parliament about the appalling show trial and prison Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): The Prime sentence handed down to Yulia Tymoshenko, the former Minister inherited a welfare system in which families Prime Minister? Prime Ministers do make mistakes and were able to claim £2,000 a week in housing benefit, and lose elections, as she did, but she has been put on trial in which some working families were worse off than for policy decisions that she took. Will the Prime Minister those who were on benefits. What can he do to help make it clear—I am glad the Foreign Secretary is briefing those hard-working families in Sherwood who get out him—that Ukraine will not be able to open membership of bed and work hard because of their self-pride and talks with the EU, and that any hopes of liberalising responsibility? visa access will go out of the window because of this disgraceful Stalinist show trial and sentence? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks for millions in the country when he says that what people want is a The Prime Minister: We completely agree that the welfare system that helps people who want to put in, treatment of Mrs Tymoshenko, whom I have met on work hard and do the right thing. What we are doing, previous occasions, is absolutely disgraceful. The Foreign first, is putting in place a cap so that we do not have Secretary has made a very strong statement about this. those absurd amounts of money in housing benefit The Ukrainians need to know that if they leave the going to individual families—as he says, sometimes, it is situation as it is, it will severely affect their relationship £2,000 a week. Secondly, universal credit will ensure not only with the UK but with the European Union and that it is always worth while people working and always NATO. worth while working a little harder. Let us see whether the Labour party, after a decade of giving people something Q5. [72834] Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Small for nothing, are prepared to back that by voting for business, not more Government debt, is key to job tough caps in the Welfare Reform Bill. creation, and entrepreneurship is a noble endeavour, so will the Prime Minister join me in welcoming Q7. [72836] Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): If the support of Bedfordshire university, Cranfield a Minister breaks the ministerial code, should he or she university, Colworth science park, Bedfordshire on keep their job? Sunday and 100 business leaders in my constituency for setting up an investment fund and mentoring scheme to The Prime Minister: The ministerial code is very clear support early-stage businesses in Bedford? Will he ask that, in the end, it is for the Prime Minister to decide his Ministers to work with me to see whether that can whether someone keeps their job or not. In the case of be replicated in other towns across the country? the Defence Secretary, when the Leader of the Opposition has called for an inquiry by the Cabinet Secretary, and The Prime Minister: I pay tribute to my hon. Friend when I have established such an inquiry, it is very for what he is doing in Bedford. This Government important that we allow him to do his work to establish recognise that it is going to be small businesses that will facts, and then a decision can be made. However, let me provide the growth, jobs and wealth that this country be clear: I think that the Defence Secretary has done an needs. That is why we have an agreement with the banks excellent job clearing up the complete mess that he was to increase lending to small businesses, why we are left by Labour. providing extra rate relief to small businesses, why we are giving the smallest businesses a holiday from new Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): Retirement regulation and why we have got the one-in, one-out rule ages must go up, but the timetable in the Pensions Bill is for new regulation. I applaud all efforts at a local level too fast for many women. I was pleased to hear the to give small businesses the mentoring, help and support Prime Minister say earlier that he was looking at transitional that they need to grow. arrangements, and I would hope that those will result in a significant slowing down of the increase in retirement Q6. [72835] Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) age for many women. (Lab): Responding to the Science and Technology Committee’s report on forensic science, a Home Office The Prime Minister: As I have said, we have looked at Minister has said: this issue very carefully and we will be making an “We don’t agree with the committee’s report. It mis-states a announcement shortly. We have to look at the most number of very significant points.” difficult cases of people who will have to do quite an Given that the Home Office’s financial case was 50% adrift, extra amount of working time, but clearly it is right—one and that it has now agreed with our argument that the must look at the big picture—to equalise men’s and national archive should be protected, will the Prime women’s pension arrangements, and to move to 66, Minister urgently intervene and review the decision to given the extra longevity that we enjoy as a country. close the Forensic Science Service? The country and the Given that, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be profession are now losing key scientific staff. pleased when the announcement is made. 331 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 332

Q8. [72838] Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Both the The Prime Minister: I always listen carefully to Sir John’s Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition are advice, and he gives me some excellent advice. In the on record as supporting gender equality for future short term, Britain desperately needs to get behind the royal successions. Will the Prime Minister update the solution to the eurozone crisis, because it is having a House on the consultation that he and the Deputy chilling effect on the whole of the European economy Prime Minister are having with other Commonwealth and the American economy as well. That is the first leaders on this issue? Does he agree that it is better that priority. I accept, however, that at the same time as we resolve this matter before rather than after any doing that it will be important to get some safeguards future royal children are born? for Britain. As eurozone countries go ahead and sort out their problems, we need safeguards to ensure The Prime Minister: I certainly believe that this issue that the single market goes on working for the United should be sorted out—I am on the record as believing Kingdom. that, and I am sure that across the House there will be widespread support for it. In the consultation, I have Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South written to the Heads of State and Prime Ministers of Pembrokeshire) (Con): Last weekend, B&Q opened a the other realms concerned, and we will have a meeting new store in Pembroke Dock creating 25 jobs and on the matter at the Commonwealth Heads of Government Ledwood engineering advertised 25 new jobs in the conference. This is not an easy issue to sort out. Many town. Jobcentre Plus in Pembroke Dock has 249 jobs may have worries about starting a parliamentary or on offer. Does the Prime Minister agree that there other legal process, but I am very clear that it is an issue would be further good news if the banks honoured their that we ought to get sorted, and I would be delighted to pledge to commit to credit flow, and will he keep the play a part in doing that. pressure on and encourage businesses in Wales to advertise Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): Does the Prime even more jobs? Minister agree with the recent advice from the shadow Treasury Minister, who said that we must not and The Prime Minister: We shall certainly keep the pressure cannot pick good winners and losers? To conceive of on the banks. It is worth making the point that in spite such a simplistic “sinners and winners” model shows a of the difficulties, there are 500,000 new private sector distinct misunderstanding of business? jobs in our economy compared with the time of the election. However, we need to have in place all the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important things that help businesses to expand and grow. Bank point. The greatest need in our economy right now is to finance is just one of those things. We have the Merlin generate wealth, jobs and investment. What did Labour agreement, which is increasing lending to small businesses, do at its conference? It just launched a big attack on and we also have what the Chancellor has said about British business, when that is what will help us out of credit easing to ensure that we consider other ways of these difficulties. expanding credit in our economy.

Q9. [72839] Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): Was the Prime Minister aware before Q11. [72841] Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) today that his chief spokeswoman was a former (Lab): This week, I had the privilege of meeting colleague of Mr Adam Werritty? Hafsah Ali and Joseph Hayat from the Ready for Work campaign. They are impressive young people The Prime Minister: As I have said, this whole issue is campaigning against rising youth unemployment. Will being looked at by the Cabinet Secretary, and he will the Prime Minister tell us what has happened to his produce his report. I would ask people to have a little vow earlier this year to reverse the trend of rising youth patience—let the facts be established and the questions unemployment? Will he also tell the House when he answered, and then we can move ahead. last met a young unemployed person?

Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Is my right hon. The Prime Minister: Youth unemployment has been Friend aware that nearly 40 Government Members have rising since 2004—it went up during the growth years as signed an amendment in my name requiring that all well as in the difficult years. We need a comprehensive offenders convicted of using a knife in a threatening or strategy that deals with all the problems of youth endangering fashion will receive a custodial sentence, unemployment, including the fact that there are too not only those over 18? Will he consider supporting this many people leaving school aged 16 who spent 13 years amendment? under a Labour Education Secretary—so the Labour party needs to take some responsibility—and who left The Prime Minister: I shall certainly look closely at school without qualifications to help them get a job. what my hon. Friend says. I know that the Justice This is about ensuring that we have better education, a Secretary is doing this too. We want to move ahead with welfare system that helps people into work and a Work a mandatory sentence for adults, and we shall look very programme that provides not phoney jobs, as the future closely at the arguments that my hon. Friend makes. jobs fund did, but real work for real young people. Q10. [72840] Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Sir John Major said four days ago that the Government Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): A recent TaxPayers should use the euro crisis as an opportunity to loosen Alliance report revealed—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ahh!”]—that EU powers over Britain. His first priority was the 38 union leaders were remunerated at more than £100,000 common fisheries policy. When will the Prime Minister each, including Derek Simpson of Unite, who received take Sir John’s advice and tell the EU that Britain more than £500,000. Does the Prime Minister agree intends to withdraw from the CFP? that it is time for union boss pay restraint? 333 Oral Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Oral Answers 334

The Prime Minister: It is interesting that Labour will he now reflect on the comments made by an Taoiseach Members always listen to the trade unions, but never to in relation to that meeting and the outcomes, and the the TaxPayers Alliance. One reason is that they do not agreement made by both Governments at the Weston want to hear about excessive pay in the public sector, Park talks in 2001 that there should be an independent local government or among their paymasters, the trade public inquiry? unions. The Prime Minister: Of course I have reflected incredibly Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Here is carefully on what was said yesterday, and I have reflected another question that the Prime Minister will not want on this whole issue for many months since becoming to answer. Will he get a grip of his Back Benchers Prime Minister. I profoundly believe that the right thing following last night’s debacle in the Chamber relating to for the Finucane family, for Northern Ireland and for the business of the House on 17 October? Does he everyone in the United Kingdom is not to have another understand that the perception out there in the real costly and open-ended public inquiry, which may not world is that some MPs would rather talk about their find the answer, but instead for the British Government own pensions than discuss a 22-year-old injustice and to do the really important thing, which is to open up the deaths of 96 men, women and children? and tell the truth about what happened 22 years ago. We do not need an inquiry to do that; that is why my right The Prime Minister: Let me answer the hon. Gentleman hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland directly. We are going to protect the time for that will be making a statement explaining exactly how we absolutely vital debate. On the issue of MPs’ pensions, are going to do it and who will be involved. In the end, it is very clear that we have to show restraint at a time the greatest healer is the truth. Frank acknowledgement when the rest of the public sector is being asked to show of what went wrong, an apology for what happened—that restraint. So because of what happened last night, there is what is required. Let us not have another Saville will have to be a debate, but it will not eat into the time process to get there; let us get there more quickly and do for the very important debate that he mentioned and the right thing. which I know many Members care deeply about. Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Will my right Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): What action hon. Friend join me in welcoming the news that it seems is my right hon. Friend taking to reintroduce rigour that Gilad Shalit will be released in the next few days, into the education system and end the ridiculous situation which could well go a long way towards peace in the under the previous Government of 22% of students area? doing proper academic studies? The Prime Minister: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this case. What that young soldier has The Prime Minister: The Education Secretary is doing been through for those weeks, months and years is a superb job of focusing schools on results, including in something that anyone in this House would find difficult English and maths, ensuring that we look at the English to contemplate. If it is the case that he will be coming baccalaureate, which includes the core subjects that home soon, I wish him, his family and everyone in employers and colleges really value, and doing some Israel well. simple and straightforward things that were not done for 13 years, such as ensuring that punctuation and Mr Speaker: Order. The following statement is on an grammar actually count when someone does an exam. extremely important matter. May I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber to do Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): The so quickly and quietly, so that I and those remaining Prime Minister met the Finucane family yesterday, so can hear the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland? 335 12 OCTOBER 2011 Pat Finucane 336

Pat Finucane Sir Desmond believes “are relevant.” 12.32 pm The account will be provided to me “by December 2012, for the purpose of its publication.” The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson): With permission, I would like to make a I have agreed the terms of reference with Sir Desmond, statement. Following my statement to the House last and I would stress that he is being given unrestricted November in relation to the murder of Mr Patrick access to these documents. He will be free to meet any Finucane, I have considered this case very carefully. I individuals who can assist him in his task. It is, of want to set out today how the Government intend to course, open to him to invite or consider submissions as proceed. he sees fit. The murder of Mr Finucane, a Belfast solicitor, in The review will have the full support and co-operation front of his family on 12 February 1989 was a terrible of all Government Departments and agencies in carrying crime. There have been long-standing allegations of out its work. I have spoken to the Chief Constable, who security force collusion in his murder. The former has given his assurance that Sir Desmond will have the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Lord Stevens was full co-operation of the Police Service of Northern asked to investigate the murder in 1999. He published Ireland. This Government have demonstrated in the his overview report in 2003, concluding that there was Bloody Sunday, Billy Wright and Rosemary Nelson “collusion”, that the murder “could have been prevented” cases that we will publish independent reports without and that the original investigation of the murder delay. The same checking and publication arrangements will be put in place. “should have resulted in the early arrest and detection of his killers.” This has been an exceptionally long-running issue. When he was asked by the previous Government to The previous Government sought to resolve the issue consider the question of a public inquiry, Judge Cory after the 2004 commitment to hold an inquiry but were found in 2004 unable to reach an agreed way forward with the family. I am disappointed that the family did not feel able to “strong evidence that collusive acts were committed by the Army…the RUC…and the Security Service.” support the process that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I outlined to them yesterday. I fully recognise My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister invited the that the family have pursued their long campaign to family to Downing street yesterday so that he could find out the truth with great determination. We do not apologise to them in person and on behalf of the need a statutory inquiry to tell us that there was collusion. Government for state collusion in the murder of Patrick We accept that, and my apology in the House today Finucane. reflects this. The task now is to uncover the details of The Government accept the clear conclusions of Lord this murder. The public should not be kept waiting for Stevens and Judge Cory that there was collusion. I want many more years for the truth to be revealed. to reiterate the Government’s apology in the House The Government have taken a bold step by asking an today.The Government are deeply sorry for what happened. internationally respected figure to produce a full public Despite the clear conclusions of previous investigations account. Details in papers and statements that have and reports, there is still only limited information in the been kept secret for decades will finally be exposed. The public domain. That is why my right hon. Friend the House will be aware of the extensive investigations that Prime Minister and I have committed to establishing a have already taken place in this case. I am clear that we further process to ensure that the truth is revealed. do not need to repeat all the work that Lord Stevens has Accepting collusion is not sufficient in itself. The public already carried out for the truth to be revealed. The now need to know the extent and nature of that collusion. investigations into the murder of Patrick Finucane have I have, therefore, asked the distinguished former United produced a huge amount of material. One man, Kenneth Nations war crimes prosecutor Sir Desmond de Silva Barrett, was prosecuted and convicted of the murder in QC to conduct an independent review to produce a full 2004. Taken together, the Stevens investigations took public account of any state involvement in the murder. 9,256 witness statements. The Stevens documentary Sir Desmond is an internationally respected QC who archive extends to more than 1 million pages; 16,194 exhibits will carry out his work completely independently of were seized. This was one of the largest police investigations Government. He has worked for the United Nations on in UK history. major international issues in Serbia and Sierra Leone. Lord Stevens carried out a police investigation to In 2005, Kofi Annan appointed him to be chief prosecutor bring forward evidence for prosecutions. A 19-page for the Special Court for Sierra Leone. In 2010, he was summary report was produced in 2003, but the Stevens appointed by the United Nations Human Rights Council investigation was not designed to provide a public account to the independent fact-finding mission to investigate of what happened. That is why Sir Desmond de Silva the Israeli interception of a Gaza aid flotilla. His track will now have full access to the Stevens files and all record in carrying out this work speaks for itself. Government papers to ensure that the full facts are Sir Desmond’s terms of reference are to draw finally set out. The House will not want to pre-empt the “from the extensive investigations that have already taken place, details of Sir Desmond’s report. When the report is to produce a full public account of any involvement by the Army, published, the Government will not hide from the truth, the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the Security Service or other UK however difficult. Government body in the murder of Patrick Finucane. The review will have full access to the Stevens archive and all Government I strongly believe that this will be the quickest and papers, including any Ministry of Defence, Security Service, most effective way of getting to the truth. Experience Home Office, Cabinet Office or Northern Ireland Office files has shown that public inquiries into the events of the that” troubles take many years and can be subject to prolonged 337 Pat Finucane12 OCTOBER 2011 Pat Finucane 338

[Mr Owen Paterson] take place under the Inquiries Act 2005, but today the Secretary of State has told us of his decision that there litigation, which delays the truth emerging. As my right will no inquiry at all. Instead the Government have hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I have made clear announced an inadequate review, although the whole for some time, we do not believe that more costly and country will welcome the apology. We are disappointed open-ended inquiries are the right way to deal with by that decision, and think that the Secretary of State Northern Ireland’s past. should honour commitments that have been made. I am acutely conscious that the conflict in Northern The incredible scenes yesterday of the Finucane family Ireland saw over 3,500 people from all parts of the at Downing street expressing their feelings of anger and community killed and tens of thousands more injured. outrage at having been completely let down by the We should never forget the many terrible atrocities that Government show that this is no way in which to deal took place. More than 1,000 of those killed were members with such a difficult and sensitive issue. Will the Secretary of the security forces. I want to be clear that the of State tell us why he allowed the Finucane family to overwhelming majority of those who served in the believe for so long that an inquiry would be offered to security forces in Northern Ireland did so with outstanding them? What discussions did he have with them before courage, professionalism and even-handedness in upholding informing them of his decision? What advice did he give democracy and the rule of law. The whole House will the Prime Minister that led the Prime Minister to invite agree that we owe them an enormous debt of gratitude. the family to Downing street? They clearly believed that The murder of Patrick Finucane has been one of the they would be offered something that would be acceptable longest running and most contentious issues in Northern to them; otherwise, why raise false hopes? What discussions Ireland’s recent history. The appointment of an had the Secretary of State had with his counterpart in internationally respected and wholly independent figure the Irish Government before he made his decision? to produce a full public account demonstrates the Why, on the day on which the Irish Government Government’s determination that the truth about this extended by six months the Smithwick inquiry into the murder should be finally revealed. The House will recognise murders of Chief Superintendent Breen and Superintendent the spirit of openness and frankness with which we are Buchanan regarding alleged Garda collusion, did the dealing with this difficult issue. I would encourage Secretary of State choose to deny an inquiry to the everyone to judge the process we have established by its Finucane family? Does he accept that, while any form results. I commend this statement to the House. of inquiry takes time and carries a financial cost, it is possible for such inquiries to be both reasonable and Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): May I first thank the not, in themselves, a barrier to the pursuit of justice? As Secretary of State for early sight of his statement and for the proposed review of the Finucane papers, will he for the welcome that he has on many occasions extended tell us how representations—including any from the to me in my new post? I greatly appreciate it, as I do the family—can be made, what is the expected cost of such welcome I have received from many others, too. I am a review, where the hearings will be held, whether any delighted to have been appointed the shadow Secretary will be held in secret, and whether witnesses will be of State for Northern Ireland and I look forward to called? working in a bipartisan way with the Secretary of State Everything that has been achieved in Northern Ireland whenever possible, as well as to working closely with the since the mid-1990s has been achieved with consensus. Northern Ireland Executive, and all its parties and The Belfast, St Andrews and Hillsborough Castle representatives. I will, however, hold the Government to agreements were all achieved by means of consensus. account and challenge them, where necessary. The Northern Ireland Executive operate by consensus. Every community in Northern Ireland has suffered There are many horrors from the past, many atrocities, outrages, atrocities and murders, but today we are reflecting many outrages on the part of both loyalist and republican on the murder of Pat Finucane. His wife was wounded terrorists, but there is an opportunity for Northern in the attack and his three children witnessed what no Ireland to escape the grip of the past by confronting the child ever should—the murder of their father. truth about past events. Will the Secretary of State Thirteen months ago, my right hon. Friend the Member therefore tell us what the Government’s policy is for for St Helens South and Whiston (Mr Woodward), to dealing with the past? Having denied a public inquiry whom I pay tribute today for all the work he did in into the death of Pat Finucane, will he tell us what Northern Ireland, asked the Secretary of State to honour additional resources he will provide for the Historical the commitments of a previous Prime Minister and Enquiries Team? previous Secretaries of State to hold an inquiry into the The people of Northern Ireland have made real progress, murder of Pat Finucane. That commitment was made but we must never take such progress for granted. It has as a result of an agreement between the British and taken real effort, commitment and trust. I agree with Irish Governments at Weston Park in 2001. If peace the Prime Minister: let us do the right thing. May I ask and reconciliation are to be taken forward, we need to the Secretary of State to think again about an inquiry respect such agreements. The progress that has been into the murder of Pat Finucane because it is the right made in Northern Ireland is built on trust. As we have thing to do? Seeking the truth and honouring agreements heard from Judge Cory’s report, public inquiries have means that the cause of justice is served, and with it the been held into the cases of Robert Hamill, Rosemary cause of a better future for Northern Ireland. Nelson and Billy Wright, but not into that of Pat Finucane. Mr Paterson: Let me begin by congratulating the It was a source of great regret to us, as the last hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) on his Government, that we were not able to agree terms of appointment to a difficult and important position. I reference with the Finucane family for an inquiry to warmly welcome his view that we should approach 339 Pat Finucane12 OCTOBER 2011 Pat Finucane 340

Northern Ireland issues in a bipartisan manner. He is documents and there will be more than 9,000 witness sitting next to the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). statements. That is where the truth lies, and we want to The right hon. Gentleman, the right hon. Member for get the truth out. I hope that, on reflection, the hon. Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and the right hon. Member for Gentleman will come round to agreeing that our approach St Helens South and Whiston (Mr Woodward)—who is novel, bold and brave. It will cost approximately are also present—all played a distinguished part in £1.5 million. The main offices will be in London, but bringing Northern Ireland to where it is now, continuing obviously that is up to Sir Desmond, and he will certainly work which, in fairness, began under Sir John Major, be visiting Belfast. whose role is often forgotten. I very much hope that we I met Sir Desmond this morning. I have appointed shall continue to work closely with one another. We met him, and his letter of appointment will be in the Library. privately on Monday, and we have talked today. My He is very keen to get going and to meet the family. door is always open, and I hope that we shall discuss How he relates to the family and others is entirely up to these matters together. him. He can invite people to attend. He does not have The hon. Gentleman asked about the chronology. I the power to demand that witnesses attend, but he will wrote to the Finucane family within weeks—on 28 June have powers—real powers, I hope—to get access to a last year—asking to meet them. I met Mrs Finucane in huge archive of data. That is where the truth lies—we November last year, and I think I was the first Secretary know the truth is in there—and we now all have an of State to meet her since the right hon. Member for interest in getting to the truth. Neath met her in 2006. I said then that we had inherited The hon. Gentleman also asked about the past. As he an impasse. We entirely respected the position of the knows, that is, sadly, a fraught issue. The Minister of Labour Government, who had committed themselves State and I have been holding talks since we came into to a public inquiry, but the right hon. Member for office last June; we have talked to all the political parties Torfaen had introduced the Inquiries Act 2005, and and to numerous interest groups. I know about the there appeared to be a jam. We wanted to unlock that debate in the Assembly this week. Sadly, as the hon. jam, and we went into the process in a genuinely open- Gentleman will find out when he goes there on Thursday, minded way. there is no consensus on the past. He mentioned On 11 November last year I issued a written ministerial the Historical Enquiries Team, which is looking into statement, which the hon. Gentleman will have read, 3,268 deaths. We are very supportive of it and have setting out various criteria against which we would always supported it, and we know that it is giving make a judgment and inviting representations. It was a extraordinarily high levels of satisfaction to the families very open process, and we took representations. We who have so far received reports, but oversight of it is a were still in discussion with the family at the end of the devolved responsibility, so the hon. Gentleman should two months, and we extended the period for a further discuss funding issues with the Northern Ireland Justice two months. Until yesterday, I last saw Mrs Finucane in Minister, David Ford. Washington on St Patrick’s day. I gave her an assurance that we wanted to come to a conclusion and resolve the The Government in Westminster do not own the impasse, but we could not do so during the Assembly past. The solution to the past lies very much in the election period. I promised that that would happen hands of local politicians. We will help to facilitate soon after. things, however. I will continue our talks and I will It has taken longer, however. This has not been an make further statements on our approach soon. easy issue to resolve, but what we have done is incredibly bold. We believe that by inviting the family to Downing Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I thank street so that the Prime Minister can make an apology the Secretary of State for providing me with early sight in person, we have moved the whole argument on. of the statement, and I agree with him that accepting The original justification for a public inquiry was, that there was collusion is not in itself enough, and that bluntly, to put the British Government on the spot and we need to get to the truth of who did what. If that is to prove that collusion had happened. We have accepted established, will he confirm that any necessary prosecutions Stevens and Cory, and by making this bold apology—the will go ahead? Although it is totally right that we praise Prime Minister made it in a full and frank manner, and the quality of the people who served in the security I have repeated it today on the Floor of the House—we forces in the past and the outstanding way in which they believe we have created an opportunity to move the carry out their work now, we must find out the truth in argument on. order to protect the image of those people, who deservedly The question now is how do we get to the truth? That have a high reputation. was clearly stated towards the end of today’s Prime I do not believe that it was necessary to spend so Minister’s questions. As we have made clear in the much money on past inquiries. It was the Prime Minister’s build-up to this statement, we firmly believe that costly response to the Saville inquiry that satisfied people in open-ended inquiries are not necessarily the best way to Northern Ireland. Since then, we have had inquiries get to the truth. Speed is also an issue. Past inquiries that were, perhaps, expensive and that did not reach the have taken a long time. The hon. Member for Gedling truth. I therefore support the Secretary of State’s decision mentioned Smithwick. That offers a classic example of and agree that what is important is not how we get to the trouble we can get into with an inquiry. It had to be the truth, but actually getting to the truth. extended. The new Government tried to get an interim report in June and to limit the process to November, but Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the Select Committee it looks as though they will have to extend that. Chairman for his support for what we propose to do. What we have done is radical and bold. We have Decisions on prosecutions are entirely in the hands of made a full apology, and we now have an opportunity the local Director of Public Prosecutions, so if this to put in place a new process. There are 1 million review reveals information that justifies the DPP taking 341 Pat Finucane12 OCTOBER 2011 Pat Finucane 342

[Mr Paterson] up by Tony Blair as part of the peace process, and in breaking the promise that we gave, we are damaging the action, that is entirely down to him. As I am sure the very foundations of that process. The independent inquiry Chairman knows, on seeing the Stevens papers the previous was fair to everyone; it was fair to the family and the DPP found that not enough cases met the threshold soldiers. requirements. I entirely endorse the Chairman’s comments Let me set out my fear. The Secretary of State has on getting to the truth so that we can honour the vast said today that he has reached a verdict: there was state majority of those who worked in the security forces, collusion. No account has been given of the process by bravely defending law and order and democracy. That is which that verdict has now been reached, however, and exactly what we want to do. There is no offence of we do not know collusion by whom or collusion about collusion, so we need to get to the detail, and I am what. In this process, we must be fair to the armed confident Sir Desmond will do so. forces: we must be fair to those soldiers and members of the police who may need legal representation now. Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I thank What are they meant to do? Will the Secretary of State the Secretary of State for his statement. He said: “The guarantee that any men and women who may face public now need to know the extent and nature of that prosecution in the future because of his verdict today collusion” and the “task now is to uncover the details of will be able to have a fair trial? this murder.” How can that possibly be achieved when Sir Desmond cannot compel witnesses to give evidence Mr Paterson: I am sorry that the right hon. Gentleman to his inquiry—which is not really an inquiry? That has has not supported what we have done. I pay tribute to created grave disappointment in Northern Ireland. I his work as Secretary of State. He managed to pull off ask the Secretary of State to review yesterday’s decision the great coup of seeing the final plank of devolution and to establish an independent public inquiry that will put in place. Getting the devolution of policing and empower witnesses to give evidence about the true justice was not an easy task. We worked together, supporting nature and extent of collusion. him strongly at the time, and it was a considerable achievement. The House should recognise that and be Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her grateful. question. However, the simple answer to it is no; we are Obviously, given the right hon. Gentleman’s knowledge, cracking on. We think we have found a solution to the I am disappointed by his comments. I do not wish to conundrum that was not resolved by the last Government. make a tiresome point, but I did write to Mrs Finucane They had the clear policy of holding a public inquiry, and met her—he did not. He had three years to resolve but that was not acceptable under the 2005 Act. We this and did not do so. We talked about it privately and think that through our bold measure of a public and we both know how extraordinarily difficult the conundrum personal apology to the family and going ahead with a was. He stuck to the line, which we have heard again review of this huge archive—1 million pages, 9,000-plus from his successor—it is totally understandable and witness statements, 16,000 exhibits—we will get to the coherent—that a public inquiry was offered, under the truth. We strongly believe that this is the right course of Inquiries Act 2005. We inherited a logjam; I really felt action, and that we can then move on from this impasse, that this issue was festering. People must get hold of the which we must do because the situation has been festering. boldness of what we have done. The Prime Minister has invited the family in to apologise in person. We are Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I welcome the going to have a really thorough review. Sir Desmond is Secretary of State’s announcement and share his view not a patsy; he is a man of extraordinary integrity and that the independent review should be conducted by international repute. I fear that the report may be very such an honourable, experienced and reputable figure difficult for us, but we will come to the House, as we did as Sir Desmond de Silva; I believe this is the right way with Saville, with Nelson and with Wright, and make forward. I also appreciate the Secretary of State’s appropriate comments. commitment that all arms of the Government will offer The right hon. Gentleman mentions individuals. Stevens, unrestricted access to Sir Desmond. The murder of after probably the longest criminal investigation in British Patrick Finucane was a desperate and despicable act history, said clearly in his report: and I applaud the Government’s determination to get to the truth. Finally, may I ask the Secretary of State to “I have uncovered enough evidence to lead me to believe that”— keep the House informed of the progress of Sir Desmond’s investigation? the murder— of Patrick Finucane…could have been prevented.” Mr Paterson: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s comments. He continued: Sir Desmond is an independent figure, and it is not for “I conclude there was collusion in”— us to interfere in any way in how he conducts the review the murder— and the manner in which he proceeds. We have to get “and the circumstances surrounding” the message across that he is an independent figure, and it. The problem is that there is no offence of collusion, a man of extraordinary integrity and international standing. which is why we have appointed Sir Desmond. As I said He is not going to take any advice or accept any in answer to a previous question, should evidence come interference from the Government. That is not his role. forward that, in the opinion of the DPP, goes over the We have appointed him, he is independent, and it is up threshold, the legal process will take its course. to him to report back to us in December 2012. Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): This Mr Shaun Woodward (St Helens South and Whiston) widespread though not unanimous support for the (Lab): I have no doubt that the Secretary of State statement by the Secretary of State and the Prime means well, but I think he is wrong. The inquiry was set Minister has been seen before when other Prime Ministers 343 Pat Finucane12 OCTOBER 2011 Pat Finucane 344 and Secretaries of State have taken initiatives to break prosecution for war crimes. Sir Desmond is a fearless logjams. I put it to the Secretary of State that getting to lawyer. May I ask my right hon. Friend for some the truth is an important part of coming to terms with clarification? Will Sir Desmond be treated by the machinery history. May I end by saying that we should respect and of government, and by everyone involved, with the support lawyers, journalists and families who stand by courtesy that would be extended to a High Court judge? those who are victims or potential victims, those who What exactly are his powers? are accused and even those who have been convicted, because representing the unpopular and the marginal is Mr Paterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his an important part of an open and democratic society? welcome of Sir Desmond’s appointment and I wholly endorse the description of him as fearless. The House Mr Paterson: I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments. perhaps does not know that as a young barrister, aged He served as a Northern Ireland Minister and is aware 28, Sir Desmond represented 16 individuals facing death of the sensitivities of issues in Northern Ireland. He is at the gallows, and that he saw off several assassination absolutely right to say that lawyers and politicians who attempts and the 16 people were acquitted. He is someone stand up for unpopular, controversial views have every of real international integrity and repute. I did say that right to speak and every right to life. That is why this I would place his letter of appointment in the Library, murder is shocking, and it is why we want to get to the and it is for a distinguished lawyer such as my hon. truth and find out what happened. Friend to decide whether the powers are similar to those of judges or other lawyers. The Government have Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I begin by said that we will make available all the papers that welcoming the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) Sir Desmond wishes to see, and I do not think that I can to his post as shadow Secretary of State, and I look make a more open or clear statement than that. forward to working with him. He has good experience of Northern Ireland and I am sure that we will have Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): In 2004, I announced useful exchanges in the weeks and months ahead. the inquiries into the deaths of Nelson, Billy Wright and Hamill, and in September of that year I also I welcome what the Secretary of State has said today announced an inquiry into the Pat Finucane case. It in the House. The murder of Pat Finucane in my seems to me that we were under an obligation to do that constituency was an atrocious, terrible, despicable crime. because of agreements that had been held, and anything Every person involved, either in carrying out that murder that falls short of that obviously will not get the support or complicit in it, deserves to be brought to justice—let of the Finucane family. They did not support the idea there be no mistake and equivalence on this issue. Does of an inquiry under the 2005 legislation, but they certainly the Secretary of State accept that across Northern will not support this so-called “inquiry”. However Ireland reasonable people on all sides agree that the distinguished the lawyer, it simply is not going to work. idea of more costly, open-ended inquiries into such I urge the Secretary of State to think again. crimes is simply not reasonable, not least on the grounds of expense, but also because it has been proved that Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman they do not bring closure and elevate certain crimes for his question. I pay tribute, again, to his distinguished above others? He has already referred to the fact that work in Northern Ireland, but I would remind him of more than 3,000 people have been murdered, 1,000 of the position that I just described to one of his successors, them in the security forces. We owe it to all the victims the right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston to ensure that all murders are investigated, that their (Mr Woodward). We were facing an impasse. We fully relatives are equally cherished and that there is justice respected what he had done and the reasons for introducing for everyone. In going forward, an absolute assurance the 2005 Act, following the Saville inquiry, which was must be given for those who have died that the interests getting out of control—everyone understood that. We of terrorists and those who carried out terrorism are understood the commitment he made at Weston Park, not elevated to the same status as those who protected but this was going nowhere. It is no good having a communities and who were totally innocent. Mexican stand-off, with things going nowhere, because we want to move Northern Ireland on. This is an Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman extraordinarily fraught and difficult case. I think that for his comments and for welcoming our proposals, and we have been very bold and courageous in making this I admired his wholehearted denunciation of this terrible apology—a full, frank apology to the family, given face crime. I agree with him; I think that the approach of the to face with the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Historical Enquiries Team is correct. It is treating every in Downing street—and then working with the family one of these appalling deaths—3,268 deaths is a dreadful to establish the truth. number—in an equal manner. In some cases, its attempts meet with great difficulty, as there is limited evidence— Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): I welcome the Secretary limited forensics, no DNA and so on. I admire the of State’s statement and the leadership offered by the consistent record of satisfaction that the HET has given Prime Minister, as well as his bold apology. I think it is to the families who have received reports so far. absolutely right that we do that. I offer my sympathies to the Finucane family, as I do to the 3,500 other Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I commend my right families out there who lost loved ones in a tragic period hon. Friend’s selection of Sir Desmond de Silva for the of the history of these islands. The truth is important, task. Sir Desmond is an outstanding international lawyer. but I have a school in Ilkley that needs to be rebuilt, and He prosecuted war crimes in Sierra Leone in very after the obscene amount of money that has been spent difficult circumstances, and it is worth the House recalling on previous inquiries, I say to the Secretary of State that that it was he who managed to indict Charles Taylor for I would rather see taxpayers’ money spent there than on war crimes, establishing for the first time under international filling the pockets of lawyers in Belfast. Does he agree law that Heads of State did not have immunity from with me? 345 Pat Finucane12 OCTOBER 2011 Pat Finucane 346

Mr Paterson: I thank my hon. Friend for his question Mr Paterson: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that and pay tribute to him as someone who served in the question. We are absolutely clear. We have been quite armed forces in Northern Ireland at a very difficult open about previous reports—Saville, Nelson, Billy Wright. time, trying to maintain the peace and to preserve law They were uncomfortable, difficult reports but we came and order and democracy. He and I, as Conservatives, straight to the House of Commons as soon as we could were elected on a platform of no more costly and and made a statement. We intend to do that, whatever open-ended inquiries and we are quite clear about that. Sir Desmond uncovers. I am more concerned, however, about the effectiveness of the inquiries. My worry, having met Mrs Finucane, is Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): As the time they take and the complication that they cause. others have said, the path to peace in Northern Ireland I believe that our solution will get to the truth quicker has been based on a willingness to negotiate and to than a public inquiry would have done. honour agreements. I regret, as others do, the fact that the Finucane family would not accept a public inquiry Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): We all feel for Geraldine under the Inquiries Act, but does the Secretary of State Finucane and her family today after what they found to not accept—I say this not to score points, but as a be a pretty insulting and insensitive experience yesterday genuine supporter of the peace process in Northern with the let-down in Downing street. We also feel for all Ireland—that there is a real risk that public confidence the victims of the troubles, many of whom still deserve in the Government’s good faith will have been undermined truth and not just from the state. Will the Secretary of by this decision and that cracking on, as he put it, is not State explain how the Finucane family clearly had a always the best way in Northern Ireland? What I learned different understanding or impression of what was going there was that it is never too late, and I urge him again to be offered yesterday? Will he also explain whether the to reconsider. Irish Government were fully briefed as the full partners Mr Paterson: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for of the Weston Park commitments on what was afoot that question and give credit to him for the work he did and what was to unfold? Will the Secretary of State stop in his years as Minister with responsibility for security patronising the family and this House by talking about in Northern Ireland. We remain in touch—we even saw a bold move to resolve an impasse, because all he has each other at the Conservative party conference last done is bypass the case for an inquiry by setting up a week, which he might be embarrassed to have on the twilight-zone review that will not be able to compel record—and I am sorry that he does not agree. We had witnesses? a problem. It was no good saying that we had inherited Mr Paterson: I resent that statement. I wrote to the Labour position of offering an inquiry under the Mrs Finucane on 28 June, three weeks after we came to Inquiries Act, which the family would not accept. We power, inviting her in. Unlike my predecessor, I had a had to do something. We had to look at a way of meeting with her and her son and we set out very clearly resolving the issue, as we want to move on. I made it in a written statement, which the hon. Gentleman saw very clear to Mrs Finucane when I met her that we on 11 November 2010, the criteria against which we wanted to find a solution. Our solution was not to carry could make a decision. It is most unfortunate—and we on with the impasse but to be imaginative. As I have were genuinely very disappointed yesterday at the reaction, said, I think our solution is bold and brave. I have great because we have looked at all sorts of options and we confidence that Sir Desmond will get to the truth and have been working on this. We made it clear— that we will come back here in December 2012 with a [Interruption.] We made it clear in our statement to the very robust report that will help move Northern Ireland House that there was a range of criteria against which on. It is not satisfactory that we do not know what we would make a decision, bearing in mind the happened in this case. commitments and the position of the family. We talked Several hon. Members rose— about delays, we mentioned the political developments that have happened since in Northern Ireland. A whole Mr Speaker: Order. These are matters of the utmost range of criteria were very clearly laid out in a transparent seriousness and I very much appreciate the Secretary of manner in a written ministerial statement and at no State’s attempt to engage with each questioner, but may stage did we give them any misleading information I gently point out that progress has been, to put it about where our decision was going. There has been mildly, leisurely to date and if I am to accommodate all nothing said in public. colleagues, which I wish to do, there is therefore a I am in regular contact with the Irish Government. I premium on brevity from Back and Front Benchers was in Dublin last week, where I saw the Tanaiste, and alike from now on. We will be led in this exercise by the Prime Minister spoke to the Taoiseach yesterday. I Mr Mel Stride. spoke to the Tanaiste twice, I spoke to the Minister for Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): Thank you, Justice and Equality and I am in regular contact with Mr Speaker. I shall indeed be brief. I welcome my right the Irish ambassador. We are in regular contact and hon. Friend’s statement, not least his reiteration of the they knew that we were getting nearer a solution, but it apology to the Finucane family for collusion. Will he is an incredibly sensitive subject and we made it quite confirm that although we will not be seeking uncosted clear to everyone that we had to talk to the family first. and open inquiries in the future, sufficient resources, as deemed by Sir Desmond, will be made available to Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): I welcome enable a full and serious review? my right hon. Friend’s statement. Will he confirm that all the material and all the conclusions of Sir Desmond’s Mr Paterson: We have discussed things with Sir Desmond report will be made fully available to this House and the and we are confident that we will provide adequate public regardless of how embarrassing that might be to resources to enable him to complete his task by Her Majesty’s Government? December 2012. 347 Pat Finucane12 OCTOBER 2011 Pat Finucane 348

Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I first he know of the destruction of any papers? He will be pay tribute to the hundreds of thousands of security aware that papers are brought in. I am concerned that forces who served in Northern Ireland with great Sir Desmond, who is a very honourable and highly professionalism and bravery.Last week, my family received reputable man, does not have the power to summon the review summary report on the brutal murder of my people and papers; his teeth have been removed and loved ones, Robert and Rachel McLernon, on 7 February many of the papers have been taken out. 1976. We are studying that at this present time. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that all innocent Mr Paterson: I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman victims of violence—including Darkley, Teebane, La was present when I read out the terms of reference, but Mon and so on—have a right to justice rather than our they are very clear that the review is to draw on the yielding to the endless demands of a select few? extensive investigations that have already taken place—I have listed the organisations—into the murder of Pat Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Finucane. That is quite clear. his question and I wholly endorse his comments on those who served. I have already said in previous responses Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): The in that I admire the work of the Historical Enquiries former intelligence officer and private investigator Philip Team, which treats every one of these victims the same Campbell Smith has admitted to hacking the computer and does its very best under difficult circumstances and of another intelligence officer on behalf of Alex Marunchak sometimes, tragically, with limited evidence, to get as of News International. Campbell Smith was arrested near as it can to the truth. for witness intimidation of the very same intelligence officer, who was supposedly the only officer from the John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): Does intelligence community co-operating with the Stevens the Secretary of State accept that the Government inquiry into the death of Pat Finucane. It is alleged that might have got this badly wrong? Will he also concede when he was interviewed by the police he admitted that today that it was a crass misjudgement to invite the a special branch officer working on the Stevens investigation Finucane family across yesterday, raising hopes and gave that personal information. I welcome the Secretary expectations, only to tell them that the pledge of a of State’s commitment to allowing Sir Desmond access, proper public inquiry had been withdrawn? So that the presumably, to the police statement that was given, House can be clear about the responsibility, was the but if Sir Desmond wants to interview that special misjudged decision his or the Prime Minister’s? branch officer and that officer refuses, what powers will Sir Desmond have to get to the truth? Mr Paterson: I regret the tone of that question. Sadly, the right hon. Gentleman has completely missed the Mr Paterson: I am grateful for that question, and the point. We came in and inherited an impasse—I do not hon. Gentleman has made some interesting comments. want to vex you, Mr Speaker, by repeating this. The These are issues for Sir Desmond to resolve, but we previous Government, whom the right hon. Gentleman believe that he will find the truth in the 9,000 statements supported, was going nowhere on this and we had to taken under caution. We should not be under any break the logjam. I made the approach, I met the illusion that some of the previous public inquiries got family, I put out the written statement and I discussed all witnesses to come forward. Indeed, the hon. Member this with the Prime Minister. We are a collegiate for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) did not turn up to an Government and we worked this out together, but it was inquiry and was fined £5,000 because, on a point of the Prime Minister’s personal apology in Downing street principle, he did not want to give information. We need that was a very bold gesture to move this on. to get away from the idea that a public inquiry will always bring witnesses forward and will always be more Mr Speaker: I am pleased to tell the Secretary of effective. We have 9,000 witness statements and 1 million State that I am not vexed. pages to investigate as a route to the truth. I think that is a quicker way of doing things. Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): Does the Secretary of State accept that cracking on in the Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I wrong direction may not be the right thing to do and welcome the Secretary of State’s statement and his that this tragic case has roots that lead right back to this recommitment to recognising the dedication and bravery House and a previous Government? A Home Office of the security forces, 99.9% of whom have obeyed, Minister in this House pointed the finger at lawyers a kept and upheld the law. Nothing that is said today few days before Pat Finucane was murdered and that should sully the names of those people. Does the Secretary was sufficient endorsement for a few people—elements of State understand that in Northern Ireland the track in the police and security forces—to send out lunatics in record of public inquiries is not perceived as good? the loyalist paramilitaries to plan the murder of three Even where Governments have indicated that inquiries lawyers, two of whom, now deceased, were friends of should not be expensive, they have been, and where mine. The dogs in the street knew at the time. In doing Governments have said that they should bring closure, that, disrepute was brought on hon. Members across they have not brought closure. Does he accept that the House and those elsewhere who were members of today’s statement and announcement should mean that the security forces and of the Royal Ulster Constabulary. we start spending scarce resources on the future rather We now accept that there was collusion. May I ask than wasting them on the past? the Secretary of State whether the proposed review will confine itself to the narrow details of the murder of Pat Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Finucane, or will it include investigations into the wider his comments. We were quite clear before, during and collusion and plotting to kill those other lawyers? Does after the election that we believe there should not be any 349 Pat Finucane12 OCTOBER 2011 Pat Finucane 350

[Mr Paterson] on, this will be a futile exercise. No one doubts the abilities of Sir Desmond de Silva, but, as has been more costly and open-ended inquiries. We believe this is pointed out, he will not have the legally enforceable a swifter and better route and I agree that if we can right either to access papers or to demand the appearance resolve some of these outstanding issues—I have gone of witnesses. I believe that unless the process has the on about the impasse—we can all begin to address family’s approval it will be tainted from the outset. The problems of the present and the future. That is what we family was shocked yesterday. May I ask the Minister, are trying to do. before he takes the next step, to take a pause to allow the family to consider its position, come back and enter Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): All the into more dialogue with the Government before we atrocities committed were condemned at the time, during blunder into yet another mistake? the 1980s and 1990s, and there was no selective condemnation. Whatever the sources of the murders, Mr Paterson: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman they were condemned by both sides of the House. takes that attitude. I do not want to repeat myself too However, will the Secretary of State recognise that this often, but we inherited an impasse. The solution proposed case is different, because of the extent of collusion by by his Government was going nowhere; indeed, it was the state, and that the integrity of the state itself is in not a solution and this was festering. We fully appreciate question. Bearing in mind that there have been two the horror of this murder and the international significance previous one-person inquiries—by Stevens and Judge of it. We honestly believe that getting the Prime Minister Cory—that have not reached a satisfactory conclusion, to invite the family over and meet them in person was a is it not understandable that the family who have fought bold, brave move, and we sincerely believe that the so hard for justice are so disappointed by the decision appointment of this international lawyer of impeccable that has been reached? integrity will get to the truth faster than would have happened under a statutory inquiry, which the family Mr Paterson: Again, I say that we accept the verdict would not have accepted. of Stevens that there was collusion and we have apologised. What we have set out today is a swift route to the truth. Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): It seems strange for the Secretary of State to say that the truth lies in the Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): May I welcome archives. It would then have lain in the archives for over the Secretary of State’s statement and express my 22 years; if the truth is there, why is someone not disappointment that the anger that has been expressed already in jail? Witnesses need to be called in a proper by the family is being used to indicate that the peace way, and that could happen only through a public process in Northern Ireland is so fragile that it will inquiry. Clearly, this is more about the Conservative somehow fall apart as a result of the disappointment of party looking to its manifesto and saving money than one family? The Secretary of State has given us details about justice being done. about the inquiry, but will he also tell us the cost of the inquiry so far and give us an assurance that this marks a Mr Paterson: I regret the tone of that contribution, permanent end to the expensive public inquiry process which reduces the level of our debate, and I wholly of dealing with the past, which has done nothing to refute what the hon. Gentleman says. I believe that the heal wounds but has filled the wallets of lawyers? Prime Minister took a bold step. I think that the hon. Gentleman’s views will be refuted in December 2012. Mr Paterson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his support. This is not an inquiry—it is a review—and I Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): The Secretary of State appointed Sir Desmond only this morning. To repeat, said that his party was elected on a platform of no more we estimate the cost to be £1.5 million. I entirely endorse expensive or open-ended inquiries, but I am not convinced the hon. Gentleman’s opinion that we need to move on. that the coalition came into government with that stance. Let me pick up on an earlier comment. A few weeks I welcome the fact that the Prime Minister has apologised ago, I was in Enniskillen, where I met about 100 young for state collusion in the murder of Pat Finucane, but I people who were asked their three priorities. Not one of was a bit disconcerted when the Secretary of State said them mentioned the past. I think there is a generational in his statement that collusion was not itself a criminal issue here. For those affected—the 3,268 people and any offence. Representatives of the state have acted criminally; of their relatives and for the Finucane family—these a criminal investigation should ensue. Prosecution of events are absolutely, shatteringly appalling. Their those complicit in the murder of Pat Finucane should whole adult lives have been dominated by them and we come after that. May we have some guarantees that that have to recognise that, but there is a new generation will take place? coming through and we have to think about them. That is why we have to resolve these outstanding issues and Mr Paterson: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman move on. understands that the Director of Public Prosecutions is, and should remain, wholly independent of Government. John McDonnell: Soon after I was elected in 1997, I The previous DPP found that some cases did not achieve led an Adjournment debate on the Finucane case and I the necessary threshold. Obviously, should Sir Desmond do not doubt the Minister’s wish to move on. However, reveal evidence in his report, in line with the independence one thing I learned in that debate and afterwards was vested in him, it will be entirely for the DPP to investigate that unless the family sanctions the process of moving and pursue it. 351 12 OCTOBER 2011 352

Points of Order United Kingdom Bioethanol Industry Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order 1.31 pm No. 23) John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last week, the BBC announced 1.33 pm 2,000 job cuts. That is a direct result of the licence fee imposed on it by the Government. We were expecting Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I beg to move, some form of ministerial statement on the subject—at That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Chancellor least a written one, if not an oral one. Have you had any of the Exchequer to lay before Parliament an independent report indication from the Government that a Minister will on methods for supporting the domestic bioethanol production come before the House to give some form of statement industry; and for connected purposes. on the subject? The Prime Minister said last week: “Whatever it takes to help our businesses…we’ll do it.” Mr Speaker: I have not, but I have a feeling that the Well, now is his chance. The UK bioethanol industry hon. Gentleman will, very properly, return to the matter, has invested more than £500 million over the past possibly at business questions tomorrow, but if not, in 5 years, and a lot more is planned. That is based on the another way, and pretty soon. UK’s commitment to implementing the EU renewable energy directive and having biofuel content in our petrol. Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab): On a point of Ensus has built Europe’s largest bioethanol refinery order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday at the Health Committee, in my constituency, and it started up in February 2010. in response to a question of mine, the Secretary of State More investment is planned in the constituencies of the told us: hon. Members for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) “I’m not aware—my colleagues may be—where trusts are and for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy). However, the seeking to manage their costs by downgrading of existing staff. If Ensus plant came offline at the end of May and remains you are aware of that, please, by all means, tell us but I’m not aware of it.” shut. The situation is uncertain. The jobs of 2,000 people at the plant and in the supply chain are at risk. This is Today a statement has been issued by Janet Davies, not a tale of commercial gross misjudgement; it is mostly executive director of nursing at the Royal College of a tale of being let down by politicians. Sadly, it is a Nursing, which says that common story. Instead of leading the world in green “the Royal College of Nursing has raised the issue of downbanding technology, we are way behind and playing catch-up, with the Secretary of State on a number of occasions, alongside but other countries are moving even faster. In 2010, we other concerns such as recruitment freezes and redundancies in slipped from third to 10th in the world green investment the NHS.” league. Mr Speaker, have you had any indication that a written statement, or perhaps a formal apology, will be forthcoming So what are the problems affecting the bioethanol from the Secretary of State? industry? First, the previous Government repeatedly delayed and watered down the renewable transport fuel Mr Speaker: The short answer is that I am aware of obligation. They had form, with similar dithering neither, but I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point bankrupting the early investors in biodiesel production. of order and advance notice of her intention to raise it. The original 2003 target was 8.8% by 2010-11. The The issue, in so far as we are talking about appearances target now is 5%, which will not be reached until before a Committee, is a matter for the Committee 2013-14, so there has been major delay. That has radically rather than the Chair, unless and until the Committee moved the goalposts for an industry that has a long lead draws the matter to the attention of the House. Meanwhile, time for investments coming on stream. the hon. Lady has registered her concerns forcefully on Secondly, there are issues to do with UK fiscal policy, the record. which actually discriminates against biofuels. Those fuels are, by their nature, energy products, but they are taxed by volume at the same rate as the fossil fuels that they are intended to replace. As biofuels have a lower energy content by volume, they face a heavier tax burden despite being the greener option. That is hindering the uptake of biofuels in the UK. The EU Commission has announced proposals to revise the energy taxation directive, which are now being negotiated by the European Council. Under the revised directive, transport fuels would be taxed, at the minimum level, according to energy content and carbon content, rather than by volume. The UK should support the adoption of the revisions to the directive at EU level and reform UK fiscal policy. Transport fuels with the best carbon and sustainability performance should be available to the consumer at the pump at the lowest cost, in terms of pence per mile. Thirdly, there are US imports. The UK market is dominated by US imports, which exploit loopholes in our tariff structure and receive domestic subsidies for 353 United Kingdom Bioethanol Industry12 OCTOBER 2011 United Kingdom Bioethanol Industry 354

[Ian Swales] of sustainability. The feedstock is animal feed wheat. The products are bioethanol for use in road fuel, carbon their production. Bioethanol used for blending with dioxide which, in a separate £20 million investment by petrol in transport fuel is imported to the UK already another company, is collected for use in the food and partly blended. It is then classified as a chemical product drink industry, and animal feed which contains all the and dealt with under chapter 38 of the UK trade tariff. protein in the original wheat. It is highly valued by The customs duty payable is much lower than it ought farmers and replaces the import of high protein soya-based to be, especially when comparison is made with many animal feed from South America, which is most likely other EU member states. Bioethanol imported under grown on former rain forest land. Those who worry that code is able to undercut the market, with damaging about land use should remember that under the crazy consequences for our industry. Many other EU states common agricultural policy we are currently paying our such as Germany have ensured that only unadulterated farmers not to grow things. ethanol qualifies towards their targets under their The National Farmers Union has commented on the renewable transport fuel obligation. That is imported situation in a letter to the Secretary of State for Transport, under the equivalent of chapter 22 of the UK trade saying that tariff classification, which carries a much higher tariff. “the NFU has been made acutely aware of the current damage Through that method, they shield their domestic market being created to the development of the UK biofuels industry from the aggressive and unfair import of bioethanol from ethanol imports which can exploit loopholes in the tariffs that we experience here. structure and classification definitions, undermining sustainably It is clear that the tariffs present a major problem for produced domestic biofuels.” the industry. A new operator, Vireol, claims that it has The NFU goes on to point out that damage to the already missed out on a significant multi-million-pound industry will have equity investment from a major industry player because “additional implications for UK agriculture; reducing market of our approach to tariffs, as compared with the approach diversity which supports our farm investment, agricultural jobs taken by competing member states. It sees our stance as and rural development while additionally putting at risk availability a serious impediment to the development of a thriving of useful by-products such as protein for livestock feeds, continuing industry in the United Kingdom. our increasing reliance on imported products.” There is a vote on the issue today in Brussels. It This is an excellent business to have in the UK. Our beggars belief that only last week a Department for feed wheat yields are some of the highest anywhere in Transport official seriously suggested that the UK should Europe and the high starch varieties typically grown in vote against our long-term national interest based on a the UK are ideally suited—[Interruption.] short-term, tactical, economic assessment. That would mean supporting the US in undermining our industry, Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I based on its subsidised material, which is chemically am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but there are doctored to exploit a tariff loophole. We need real far too many private conversations going on in the strategic thinking. Chamber. The hon. Gentleman has the Floor for his One final issue: the Department of Energy and Climate ten-minute rule Bill. Conversations should go on outside Change is not always clear about sustainability criteria. the Chamber. Some products are less green than others, and investors need clarity on that vital policy issue. There is a serious Ian Swales: This is an excellent business to have in the lack of joined-up thinking across government when it UK. The wheat grown here is ideal for producing comes to green technology. The issues are very likely to bioethanol. We can have a more efficient and cost-effective involve the Department of Energy and Climate Change, business than that of Germany, France or Belgium, yet the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, we are significantly lagging behind those countries. The and the Treasury. They will sometimes involve the UK has a proud record in process industries and bioethanol Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, should be a key part of our industrial future. and in this case they involve the Department for Transport. There are many benefits to taking action. A thriving I welcome the recent formation of the green technology bioethanol industry will help us meet our climate change council to address the problem of co-ordination. Here targets. Energy security will be improved by literally is what the Government need to do: I want the green growing our own. Action will encourage further investment technology council to look urgently at the bioethanol in green manufacturing and technology development. situation. Using this example, it should formulate how There are already other exciting possibilities, above all to get all Departments and the civil service joined up, growth. When fully running Ensus has a turnover of fighting together ruthlessly for the national interest as around £250 million. To supply future UK needs there we forge our green future. I want to see the Department is a £3 billion business out there. for Transport implement the renewable transport fuel The Bill should be seen as part of the Government’s obligation as soon as possible and in a predictable way vital growth agenda and requires that the Chancellor to give the industry the market that it plans for when lay before the House a report on the industry. It making major investment decisions. I want to see the should cover the specific tax and tariff issues mentioned Treasury tax biofuels by energy or carbon content, not earlier in my speech, how to encourage further rapid by volume, and I want to see the UK take action on US investment in this green industry so that the UK can imports, get them properly classified and stop this material match the activity of its competitors, and how to ensure that being dumped here. the UK Government and civil service are properly lined There may be those listening to this debate who up in support. The Government now have a golden question the sustainability of the business. To them let opportunity to show that they are serious about their me say that the Ensus business is an outstanding example commitments to being green, to promoting manufacturing 355 United Kingdom Bioethanol Industry 12 OCTOBER 2011 356 and, above all, to growth. We should be supporting our jobs, supporting our growth and supporting our bioethanol Opposition Day industry. (UN-ALLOTTED DAY) Question put and agreed to. Ordered, Jobs and Growth That Ian Swales, Tristram Hunt, Andrew Percy, Austin Mitchell and Mr David Ward present the Bill. 1.45 pm Ian Swales accordingly presented the Bill. Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): I beg Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on to move, Friday 20 January 2012 and to be printed (Bill 233). That this House notes that there has been no growth in the UK economy over the last nine months, compared to 1.8 per cent. growth in the previous nine months; further notes that families are feeling the squeeze, unemployment is rising again and the recovery was choked off last autumn, well before the eurozone crisis of recent months; agrees with the International Monetary Fund’s managing director that ‘growth is necessary for fiscal credibility’ and the IMF’s recent report which warned that ‘if activity were to undershoot current expectations and risk a period of stagnation’ the Government should ‘consider delaying some of their planned consolidation’; further notes that borrowing is forecast to be £46 billion higher than planned because of the slower growth and higher unemployment arising from the Government’s policy of cutting spending and raising taxes too far and too fast; further believes that the Government need a plan for jobs and growth if the deficit is to be reduced in a sustainable way; and calls on the Government to implement a steadier deficit plan and the Opposition’s five point plan for jobs, which includes a tax on bank bonuses to fund 100,000 jobs for young people, bringing forward long-term investment projects, reversing temporarily the VAT increase to provide an average £450 increase for a couple with children, implementing a one-year cut in VAT on home improvements, repairs and maintenance to five per cent, and a one-year national insurance tax break for small firms taking on extra workers. In opening this Opposition debate on the economy and moving our motion urging the Government to kick-start Britain’s choked-off recovery and adopt Labour’s five-point plan for jobs and growth, I shall start by setting out the facts for the House and for the country. Over the past year the British economy has ground to a complete halt. The latest figures show no growth at all since last autumn. Consumer and business confidence has slumped. For three months manufacturing output has been falling. More than 16,000 companies have gone out of business. Employment is falling and today’s chilling news is that unemployment has risen by 114,000 in the past three months alone. Unemployment here in Britain now stands at 2.57 million people out of work—the highest level since 1994. Unemployment is rising across the country. We have the highest level of unemployment among women since 1988. Most worryingly of all, youth unemployment, which a year ago was falling, is now rising again, up 74,000 in the past three months, with 991,000—more than one in five—young people out of work. There has been a 60% rise in youth long-term unemployment since February, and the overall level of youth long-term unemployment is at its highest for 19 years. What a waste of talent, what a waste of money and what a betrayal of this young generation.

Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): The former Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, said yesterday: “I think the economic proposition that Labour puts at the moment is unconvincing.” How can the right hon. Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) convince the House and the country when he cannot convince his former Cabinet colleague? 357 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 358

Ed Balls: Unemployment is rising and growth is Ed Balls: The hon. Gentleman will have to convince flatlining. The Prime Minister said just a few months his constituents because, despite the fact that we were ago that the only person supporting me was The Guardian told a year ago that the recovery would be on track, leader writer. Since then, what have we seen? The OECD growth has flatlined for a year and unemployment is and the International Monetary Fund are saying that rising right across the country, which means that borrowing the Government should change course. What has happened will be higher, not lower. to The Guardian leader writer? He has become the speech writer to the Prime Minister. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): The shadow Chancellor responds to questions about his failing to convince his To those who say that these are just the effects of a shadow Cabinet colleagues and former Cabinet colleagues world economic crisis now hitting Britain—the same by talking about convincing constituents, so why have people who absurdly claim that the global financial his poll ratings for economic credibility fallen among crisis was all the fault of the British Labour Government, his constituents and my constituents and across the but who now want to blame the British growth crisis on whole country? the rest of the world—I say yes— Ed Balls: I would be happy to have a debate with the Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Will the right hon. Gentleman on economic credibility. He said in hon. Gentleman give way? June this year: Ed Balls: In a minute. “Employment has gone up in my constituency and unemployment has been falling, which is welcome.”—[Official Report, 22 June 2011; Yes, the deepening euro crisis and the weaker US Vol. 530, c. 426.] recovery have made things harder for British exporters The figures show that unemployment in his constituency in the past three months, but one cannot blame the has gone up by 456 in the past year. Perhaps he should eurozone or the world economy for the collapse of apologise to his constituents for getting it wrong. economic recovery here in Britain when, since last autumn, our economy has grown more slowly than that of any Several hon. Members rose— EU country except Greece and Portugal, when we have the highest level of inflation of any EU country except Ed Balls: I will make some progress before giving way Estonia and Latvia, and when, over the past year, we again. A year ago we warned that a global hurricane have seen a bigger rise in unemployment than the EU was brewing and that it was exactly the wrong time to average, when most EU countries have seen unemployment rip out the foundations of the house here in Britain. not rising, but falling. I know the Chancellor does not Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Will the like it, but those are the facts. The Prime Minister said shadow Chancellor name one country that has managed today, “I accept responsibility for everything that happens to get out of recession without growth? in our economy”. I hope the Chancellor will do the same today. Ed Balls: By definition, it is impossible to get out of recession without growth, which is why in the past nine Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): Does the right hon. months we have seen no growth at all. We were told we Gentleman accept that the trade deficit between ourselves were out of the danger zone, but we do not hear that and the 17 countries in the eurozone has gone up from very often now. minus £4 billion to minus £38 billion in the past year alone, and that one of the main reasons, both as respects Several hon. Members rose— the whole of Europe and as respects the United Kingdom, Ed Balls: I will make some progress before giving way is that employment and social regulations are strangling again. I am always very happy to take interventions. It small businesses, for which the Labour party was also is clear that the Chancellor has a good whipping operation responsible in Government? I am critical of the present in place today, although good whipping is something he Government, but am I not also critical of the right hon. knows quite a lot about. Gentleman’s party’s performance in the past 10 years? A year ago, we warned that a global hurricane was Ed Balls: The Chancellor’s big boast over the past six brewing and that it was exactly the wrong time to rip months, which we were told regularly, was that between out the foundations of the house but the Chancellor 400,000 and 500,000 more jobs had been created in the disagreed and recklessly decided to raise taxes and cut British economy, but today’s figures months show that spending further and faster than in any other economy. employment has not gone up at all in the past 12 months; The evidence is clear that his plan has not made the it has actually gone down. We were also told that public British economy better able to withstand the global sector job cuts would be more than outweighed by the storm and that by going too far and too fast he has left rise in private sector jobs, but I am afraid that employment it badly exposed. Families and businesses up and down is falling because the private sector has been unable to the country are asking how many more businesses must deliver the recovery we were promised. It has been a go bankrupt, how many more families must see their complete fantasy. living standards fall, how many more young people will have to lose their jobs, how much more unemployment Christopher Pincher: It is nice that the shadow Chancellor and misery and rising child poverty must we see. How acknowledges the Government’s responsibility for the much more evidence do the Government need before economy, but it would also be nice if he took some they finally change course? responsibility for the damage he did to it when he was in Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Will power. A former Chancellor has said that Labour lacks the right hon. Gentleman give way? economic credibility. If the right hon. Gentleman cannot even convince a former Chancellor on his own Back Ed Balls: I will happily give way to my friend over Benches, how can he convince the country? there. 359 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 360

Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the shadow Sir Peter Tapsell: As a lifelong Keynesian, I fully Chancellor for giving way, but I wonder whether he has understand that growth can be achieved only by increased got it the wrong way round. With a global storm demand. Every Finance Minister in the western world is brewing, the right thing to do was ensure that the gilt grappling with that problem. What are the right hon. market was secure and that we could carry on borrowing Gentleman’s proposals for increasing demand without cheaply, which has ensured that a recovery will eventually causing damaging side-effects for the rest of the economy? come. He can no doubt find something I said in 1830 and quote it back to me, but that is not really the point. Ed Balls: At last, a perceptive intervention from the right hon. Gentleman. I will come to that very issue Ed Balls: I am not sure about 1830, but if the hon. later in my speech after making a few more points. I will Gentleman was in the House in 1930—he might have deal with ensuring that getting demand moving is done been—he will know the dangers of very low bond yields in a safe, sustainable and careful way. accompanied by rising national debt, rising unemployment and economies locked in stagnation. I do not know Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Does whether he was around at the time, but some forefathers my right hon. Friend agree that it is no surprise that, if and foremothers certainly were. Let me quote the director the Chancellor announces half a million job cuts in the of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, public sector, those people will save rather than spend the think-tank of the year, who said: and that the people in the private sector, who normally “The reason people are marking down the gilt yields is because sell things to them, contract and stop taking people on? they think that the economy is weak.” It is no surprise that that very announcement underpins That is the truth. the lack of growth in our economy and puts the guilt on the Government side of the Chamber. Let me make a prediction. I do not expect the Chancellor to announce a change of course today, but will we hear him repeat his boast made this time last year that the Ed Balls: I think that the Chancellor will regret British economy’s recovery is on track? I doubt it. Will talking down the British economy a year ago, because he repeat the Prime Minister’s deeply complacent boast the rise in private sector jobs has been swamped by that Britain is out of the danger zone? I doubt that, too. public sector job cuts. That is why employment is falling. Will he describe Britain as a safe haven that is immune That is why the private sector is not investing. That is from the global storm? Will he repeat his naive forecast why his corporation tax cut has had no impact on that cutting public jobs will boost private confidence private sector investment. Will he repeat his claim made and create more private jobs? Even this Chancellor in January 2009 that cannot fly in the face of the facts. Employment has “quantitative easing is the last resort of desperate governments fallen in the past 12 months. On the day when when all their other policies have failed”? unemployment has risen again, will he give any indication Those are prescient words, because we know the truth, that he understands at all how hard things are for and so do his increasingly desperate-looking supporters families up and down the country? Is he so out of touch on the Government Benches. that he really believes that a £1.40 a week council tax Let me say what the Chancellor cannot admit: the freeze can compensate for a £9 a week rise in VAT? private sector-led recovery he promised has proved to be a fantasy, as we predicted. In the past year, the Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): On growth that he predicted has failed to materialise. unemployment in manufacturing, why does the shadow Chancellor think that manufacturing was 21% of GDP Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): Will the right hon. in 1997 and 12% when Labour left office? Gentleman give way?

Ed Balls: Well, unemployment has fallen as a Ed Balls: In a moment. percentage—[Interruption.] As I said, that whipping Unemployment is rising, and a vicious cycle of higher operation knows no bounds. I was hoping that the hon. unemployment, fewer people in work paying tax and Gentleman was going to repeat what the hon. Member more people on benefit means that the Chancellor’s for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock) said earlier this deficit reduction plan is going badly off track. We all year. He said that know the truth, and so does he—plan A has failed. “manufacturing is expanding under this Government”.—[Official Report, 23 March 2011; Vol. 525, c. 1024.] Sajid Javid: Can the right hon. Gentleman name one The trouble is that manufacturing output has fallen in country that has got out of a debt crisis by taking on every one of the past three—[Interruption.] I am going more debt? to agree with the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), who wrote on his blog that Ed Balls: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. “deficit reduction alone isn’t enough. If we are to smooth the If, rather than preparing his intervention, he had listened waters of this choppy recovery we need to ensure that we also to my last point, he would have understood why borrowing support sustainable growth in the private sector.” is already set to be £46 billion higher than the Chancellor Where is that growth? Will the Chancellor repeat his planned. The reason is that if unemployment goes up, if claim that— the economy flatlines, if fewer people are paying tax and if more people are on benefits, you borrow more. In Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, 50 more people are the right hon. Gentleman give way? unemployed than a year ago. Perhaps he should be apologising for backing a Chancellor who got it so Ed Balls: Undoubtedly. badly wrong. 361 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 362

[Ed Balls] say for any football team in Suffolk. I will back his campaigns to stop the cuts and to spend more, and I This increasingly desperate Chancellor is now relying fully support the dualling of the A11. At last some on plan B—or should I say plan BOE? But quantitative Conservatives have persuaded some Conservative councils easing cannot work on its own, and any sensible economist to do the right thing about these proposals, which is can tell him why that is. The new shadow Chief Secretary very good. to the Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), who is a former Bank of England Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): It is all very humorous economist, can certainly explain to the Chancellor why here today, but in my constituency we already have quantitative easing cannot do the job on its own. Whether above-average national levels of unemployment and the current Chief Secretary—the former national parks unemployment has increased. It is always interesting to press officer—could explain to the Chancellor how hear an economist debate with another economist. However, quantitative easing works is another question. As the may I ask the shadow Chancellor what direct personal shadow Chief Secretary could very well explain— experience he has of working in business, helping to [Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for West Suffolk create jobs, and knowing what it is like to make payroll (Matthew Hancock) want to intervene? If so, I will each week? If he does not have any of that experience, happily take his intervention. will he please undertake to this House that he will go out and get some? Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): As a former Bank of England economist, may I explain to the Ed Balls: I have worked in Government and at the shadow Chancellor that quantitative easing works only Financial Times. I have never run a business, but I when one has a credible fiscal policy? respect people who run businesses and I understand Ed Balls: I am so pleased that the hon. Gentleman why they are so worried at the moment. In the hon. has made his intervention, because we have missed him Gentleman’s constituency, where unemployment has for the past couple of debates, and now he is back. Last gone up by over 400 in the past 12 months, there will be time he intervened on me, he put this on his website: some very worried businesses, and it is important that we listen to them and hear what they are saying. “Shadow Chancellor boosts Matthew’s work in West Suffolk”. I want to do the same again. His campaigns to get more That is why now is the time for our oh-so-political money for schools, to keep Thetford forest safe and to Chancellor to put politics aside and start to do the right stop cuts to school crossing patrols are going well. The thing. Protecting our economy and protecting valuable chief executive of his council has been sacked, and the businesses and jobs is more important than trying to Labour council in Ipswich has intervened and backed protect a failed plain. We do not have to wait for his campaign on school crossing controls and libraries. another month of unemployment rising, or for 46 more I have a quote from the shadow Chancellor for his press days until we finally get the economic and fiscal forecast release: “Mr Hancock has been tireless in his campaign from the Chancellor, to know what he is going to have against unfair cuts to local services imposed by the to say. He is going to have to downgrade his growth Conservative-led Government—cuts which go too far forecast for this year for the fourth time in 18 months and too fast.” He can leave the last bit out if he likes; I and downgrade his growth forecast for next year. As I do not mind. have explained, we already have £46 billion more borrowing in the pipeline, and unemployment is now rising. He is Matthew Hancock rose— going to have to admit that borrowing will be billions higher still than at the time of his last forecast. The Ed Balls: I will give way, but before I do, let me return Prime Minister says: to quantitative easing. As these Bank of England “You can’t borrow your way out of a debt crisis”, economists know well, simply printing money cannot boost demand and keep interest rates low when they are but he just doesn’t get it. [Interruption.] No, he doesn’t already close to zero. Printing money cannot boost get it. Because with growth flatlining, and with today’s spending when companies are too scared to invest and bleak news of rising unemployment, the Chancellor’s consumers to spend. QE—the hon. Gentleman should failing plan is leading to not lower borrowing but higher know this—cannot revive a stalling economy by boosting borrowing than he planned. demand in one direction when fiscal policy is working in a contractionary way in completely the opposite John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Whatever direction. As the Bank of England Governor said only the Government’s policy, the Opposition’s policy is to last week, and in this respect I agree with him: borrow more to increase demand. Is there a limit on the borrowing? “We can do our part in it but we can’t solve all our problems alone.” Ed Balls: I will return to the hon. Gentleman and his I now give way to the hon. Gentleman. party in a moment. They gave the Government some Matthew Hancock: The shadow Chancellor is famous very good advice 18 months ago, but unfortunately it for being a supporter of Norwich City football club, so was not heeded. will he join me in welcoming the decision to break ground on dualling the A11—an investment project Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): The that did not get the go-ahead under Labour and is right hon. Gentleman has talked about infrastructure happening under this Conservative Government? and the A11. Labour cancelled the road-building programme, whereas we are breaking new ground on Ed Balls: I think the hon. Gentleman got the name the A11. In addition, so much red tape was put in place wrong. He does not mean Norwich City—he means that we are now 83rd in the world for regulation. Does premiership Norwich City, which is more than one can he think that is helping small businesses in our country? 363 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 364

Ed Balls: To be fair to the hon. Lady, she is half on the cost of his temporary cut in VAT, how does he message, as she was back in January when she called for propose to finance it, and what would be the gain in national police cuts, but not in Norfolk. That is little GDP growth as a result? better than her neighbour over the border, the hon. Member for West Suffolk. I am in favour of the dualling Ed Balls: “Jesse is the Clark Kent of British politics.” of the A11. I personally wish we had done that, given Unfortunately, that was said by the other candidate for that we did a lot of road-building and investment, but the leadership of the Conservative party, Boris Johnson. for some reason Norwich City season ticket holders did What an endorsement for the hon. Gentleman to have not have a strong enough voice in this House. Perhaps on his own website! The fact is that the deficit reduction Mr Charles Clarke is to blame. plan is going too far— Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): Is my Jesse Norman rose— right hon. Friend as outraged as I am by the series of Ed Balls: Get back in your phone box, I am answering east of England Tory and Liberal Democrat MPs who the question. We need a slower pace of deficit reduction, choose to ignore the massive cuts to programmes such not the £40 billion more that the Chancellor boasted of. as Building Schools for the Future, which would have An injection now to get the economy growing and rebuilt schools in their own areas? unemployment coming down is the best way to get our Ed Balls: My hon. Friend is being unfair. The hon. deficit down. People do not have to take it from me; that Member for West Suffolk campaigned to reverse the is what the IMF and the OECD are advising the Chancellor cuts in Building Schools for the Future, as we know. To to do. They say, “If the economy gets into sustained be fair to the hon. Member for South West Norfolk contraction, slow down the pace of consolidation.” I (Elizabeth Truss), she has campaigned for fewer cuts in will give the hon. Gentleman another go. Norfolk. If only she did not take such a regional view. Jesse Norman: We are all enjoying the shadow John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): I congratulate the Chancellor’s vaudeville act, but he has failed to answer shadow Chancellor on listening to what I said in this the question. I am interested in what would be the place a year ago and on the major change in Labour’s actual cost of the VAT cut that he proposes and how he economic policy in the last three weeks, which has gone would fund it. unnoticed. Last year’s policy of a permanent reduction Ed Balls: The hon. Gentleman would know the answer in VAT has changed to the far more credible policy of a if he listened. I said that attempting to go £40 billion temporary reduction in VAT, which is precisely what I faster in deficit reduction than the plan the Chancellor argued for in this place a year ago. Will the shadow inherited is not working, but pushing borrowing up. Chancellor listen carefully if I have the chance to make The right thing to do now is to expand demand— a point about national insurance in this debate? [Interruption.] Look, a one-year cut in VAT in its own Ed Balls: My hon. Friend is a leading indicator, not a terms would cost £12 billion. The question is what lagging indicator. would be the impact on jobs, growth and deficit reduction. I am afraid that the Chancellor is borrowing not £12 billion The fact is that the deficit plan is going too far and more, but £46 billion more. The flatlining economy and too fast. As I have said, we should stop putting party rising unemployment mean that his deficit reduction political advantage before the national interest. That is plans are going off track. He should take the advice of why the right thing to do to help struggling families and the IMF and the OECD and change course. businesses in the constituencies of Members across the House is to adopt a plan now to get our deficit down by Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con) rose— getting our economy moving. We should repeat the bank bonus tax; build 25,000 homes; guarantee a job Charlie Elphicke rose— for 100,000 young people; genuinely bring forward long- term investment projects in schools, transport and roads; Ed Balls: I will make a little more progress, but I will temporarily reverse the damaging rise in VAT, which take interventions from people who have not intervened. would mean £450 for a couple with children; have an Good grief, I have given the hon. Member for Dover immediate one-year cut in VAT to 5% on home (Charlie Elphicke) enough of the wrong type of publicity improvement, repairs and maintenance; and introduce already and do not want to do his career any more a one-year national insurance tax break for every small damage. firm that takes on extra workers. There is a credible alternative. Why will the Chancellor The Chancellor does not have to wait 46 days. He can not act? He used to be so confident that his plan was bring forward emergency resolutions in this House next working. It is patently not working. He and his cheerleaders week and we will support them. He can call the plan on the Government Benches claim that however bad what he likes. If he wants to appease The Spectator,he things get, he is trapped by the financial markets. He can call it plan A-plus. That is fine by us. Britain just cannot take the advice of the IMF and the OECD and needs a plan that works for jobs and growth, which is change course because it would lead to higher interest why he should adopt Labour’s five-point plan for jobs rates and recession. However, the IMF has said that we and growth. cannot have credibility without growth. The markets know that rising unemployment and Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) zero growth are undermining the Chancellor’s deficit (Con): While we are on the topic of football, may I reduction plan. One chief economist in the City at congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his ample use Baring Asset Management said last week: of the substitutes’ bench, although it was of course not “Growth is essential if the UK is to be able to finance new him who used the substitutes’ bench? What would be debt, repay old debt and convince the markets and credit rating 365 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 366

[Ed Balls] Secretary and the Deputy Prime Minister are for the Chancellor to stick to the deficit reduction plan, because agencies there is a modicum of competency in policymaking. The they steamrollered their colleagues into signing up to a longer we pursue current policies, the more likely it becomes that manifesto that explicitly rejected it. The Liberal Democrats’ the UK will be the next target”. manifesto stated: That is the real market view. We know that the credit “If spending is cut too soon, it would undermine the much-needed rating agencies put out their press releases, but the real recovery and cost jobs.” view, as the IMF has told us, is that having a flatlining They were right, which is why there are so few of them economy and rising unemployment is the wrong way to here for this debate. They all know that their leaders get the deficit down. As I said, even the Chancellor’s graphically predicted before the election the very calamity friend at the IMF has said that that has happened after the election. The fact is, any “growth is necessary for fiscal credibility”. successful coalition has to have the flexibility to change Britain has no growth. That is why our Chancellor is course when things go wrong. losing credibility. “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?” Wise words from Lord Keynes, and he was a Liberal. Harriett Baldwin: Will the shadow Chancellor confirm He must listen to the current incoherent, confused and that cutting VAT to 17.5% would cost £12.5 billion a contradictory ramblings of the Business Secretary and year? Would that not simply shift demand from one turn in his grave. year to the next?

Ed Balls: The Chancellor’s whipping team really must Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): The shadow tell people to listen to the answers before they intervene. Chancellor is certainly showing flexibility in concluding that in time, it would be acceptable for VAT to reach The Nobel prize winner himself, Chris Pissarides, 20%. When did he reach that decision, and will he be says in the New Statesman tomorrow that a temporary able to persuade his colleagues, who we know are so VAT cut is the right way—[Interruption.] Isayto adamantly against VAT at 20%? Government Members that Nobel prize winners who give good advice to the Chancellor should be listened to. Given that 70 more people are unemployed in the Ed Balls: When I became shadow Chancellor six constituency of the hon. Member for West Worcestershire months ago, I said that I could not responsibly come (Harriett Baldwin) than a year ago, perhaps she should along here and make commitments on what would be in start to listen too. our manifesto in four years’ time. What I can do is give the Chancellor good advice, and a temporary cut now is Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I know that the the right thing for growth and jobs in our economy. shadow Chancellor is aware of the “Cut the VAT” It is not just Labour Members who support me on campaign, which wants the Government to reduce the this. Listen to the former Liberal Democrat leader, the VAT on home repairs, maintenance and improvement right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber work from 20% to 5%. Its analysis shows that when the (Mr Kennedy), who said on “Question Time”last Thursday rate was 17.5%, cutting it to 5% would have injected that he was £1.4 billion into the UK economy in the first year alone. “more at the Ed Balls end of the argument than the George I wonder whether he is aware that the campaign is Osborne end of the argument.” backed by 49 business organisations. In saying that—Superman will like this—he joined me and the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, in urging a Ed Balls: I know the details of that campaign, although change of course. Charles Kennedy, Boris Johnson and I do not know all 49 members. I know that it argues for me—now that would be a coalition. a widening of our proposal. It is clear that the plan is not working. The markets One business organisation, the Federation of Small know it, and so, increasingly, do the Chancellor’s coalition Businesses, has said: colleagues, but there is a second reason why this very “the Government’s growth strategy is just not working…We must political Chancellor will not budge. The clue was in the see a cut in VAT to five per cent in the construction and tourism Prime Minister’s speech last week in Manchester. What sectors to boost consumer demand.” did he say of the Chancellor? How did he describe his The business demand for a change of course is growing. closest political friend? As “the man who would be king”. It was a very strange choice of book, because it is Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): My the story of two fantasists who end up stripped, beaten, constituents, my right hon. Friend’s constituents and tortured and forced to beg for their lives. That is some constituents across this country are seeing growth—growth people’s idea of a good night out, but the idea that the in their gas and electricity bills and in their food bills. Prime Minister should say that of the Chancellor is That double whammy is hitting our constituents on top somewhat odd. of the mess that the Chancellor is making. Anyway, there we are—“the man who would be king”. It was not in the printed text of the Prime Ed Balls: Our constituents are seeing growth in VAT Minister’s speech but was another slip from him. and in unemployment as well. The only thing that they However, it is so revealing, because those words show are not seeing is growth in growth. why the Chancellor just cannot admit that he has got it The markets are not the real reason why the Chancellor wrong, even at a time when, at the weekend, The Sunday is determined to cling on to his failing economic policy. Times doubted his judgment. To change course now There are two obstacles in his way. The first is the would be to admit that the Chancellor has got the key coalition agreement. We know how desperate the Chief economic judgment of this Parliament wrong, and that 367 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 368 would be a terrible blow to his ambitions. We therefore there was absolutely no plan to deal with the deficit. see him putting politics before the national economic There was a not a single suggestion of how public interest. expenditure could be saved. Let us remember what he Ploughing on with a failing policy is not leadership; it said— is the antithesis of leadership. It is not the making of King George; it is the madness of King George. A Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Will the Chancellor without the strength to change his mind is a Chancellor give way? King Canute Chancellor, who says that he will stay the waves even as the tide turns before him. A man who Mr Osborne: I will in a moment, because perhaps the would be king? He is a Chancellor exposed naked hon. Gentleman can respond to this point. before the crowd, an emperor with no clothes, a Chancellor The shadow Chancellor said, when we debated the heading for a fall. I give him some good advice. For his matter in August, that he would set out sake, for his party’s sake and in the national interest, he “a tough, medium-term plan to get our deficit down”.—[Official needs to change course and do so quickly. It could be Report, 11 August 2011; Vol. 531, c. 1110.] the making of the man. In the face of the new global slowdown, we desperately Ed Balls indicated assent. need the Chancellor to rise above the here and now and see the need to change course, have a plan for growth Mr Osborne: He nods, but where on earth is that and jobs, kick-start our economy and get us out of the tough, medium-term plan to get the deficit down? It slow lane. We need a balanced and credible plan on was promised two months ago. Where are the cuts that jobs, growth and the deficit, and action now before it is he would make? He should give us some examples. We too late—Labour’s five-point plan for jobs and growth. have been waiting for three years for ideas from the I commend the motion to the House. Labour party about what it would cut, and none has been forthcoming. The former Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), 2.24 pm who is in his place, was pretty revealing in his memoir The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): about what was actually going on. He stated that I welcome this opportunity to discuss the very difficult “the ‘investment versus cuts’ argument…simply wasn’t credible…I economic situation that this country and the rest of the did want some examples of things we were prepared to cut. I western world face at the moment. After that vaudeville could see, though, that there was no appetite for this in No. 10.” act, I am trying to remember whether the shadow And we know who was advising the occupant of No. 10 Chancellor actually set out the five-point plan. He did Downing street at the time. not actually go through it, so we will go through it for him. Ed Balls: The International Monetary Fund has stated Of course, the concern of everyone here is to see that if the UK has a period of stagnation or contraction, growth, support jobs and get Britain through this debt the Government should change course and delay their storm; that is what we are talking about and working planned tax rise and spending cuts. The economy has on. As this is an Opposition day, however, before I turn flatlined since the autumn, with zero growth. Does that to what the Government are doing it is worth considering represent the sustained stagnation that would cause the what the Opposition propose, and what the shadow Chancellor to take the IMF’s advice and change course? Chancellor did and did not say. We should consider what his political friends, as well as his political opponents, Mr Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman quotes the are saying about him. IMF, but its managing director said a month ago that “in the United Kingdom strong fiscal consolidation is essential to The right hon. Gentleman dismissed the intervention restore debt sustainability… The policy stance remains appropriate.” by one of my hon. Friends about Charles Clarke— [Interruption.] Well, there you go. It was not picked up The right hon. Gentleman also quoted the OECD, by the microphones, but the shadow Chancellor just saying that it was telling me to change course, but the dismissively said, “Charles Clarke!” The Opposition OECD’s chief economist, whom he used to quote in the dismiss everyone with whom they served in government. House, says: They boo their ex-Prime Ministers, they dismiss their “The Government should not change its course. A cut in the ex-Ministers. Here is what the man who was the Labour VAT…would not be appropriate in our view.” Home Secretary said, not weeks ago but yesterday: So before the shadow Chancellor bandies around the “I think the Labour conference failed to come across strongly recommendations of international organisations, he should with an alternative to what the Government is doing. I think the quote them properly in the House. economic proposition that Labour puts at the moment is unconvincing…we are simply dismissed by most people thinking Ed Balls: I will quote them verbatim. The Chancellor about the most central question facing the country today, which is quoted the IMF from September and the OECD from the economy.” before the summer, but let me quote the IMF from That is the verdict not of the Conservative party, the October, just two weeks ago. It stated: Liberal Democrats or anyone else but of former members “If activity were to undershoot”—[Interruption.] of the Labour Cabinet. Let me read it, because the Chancellor has asked for the If we want to know why the shadow Chancellor is full quote, which is from October. failing to convince the country, let alone his own party, “If activity were to undershoot current expectations and risk a of why he has not come forward with a convincing period of stagnation or contraction, countries that face historically alternative, I suggest that we focus on three things that low yields (for example, Germany and the United Kingdom) were not in his speech. I will cover each in turn. First, should also consider delaying some of their planned consolidation.” 369 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 370

[Ed Balls] European stability mechanism was a mistake—we voted against because we had doubts about his European Is that stagnation and contraction in place, and has it policy. been in place for long enough yet to justify his taking However, to come back to my earlier intervention, let the IMF’s advice of just two weeks ago? me ask the Chancellor this question again. Unemployment is rising, and output has been flat for a year: how much Mr Osborne: In precisely the advice that the right longer does he have to wait before he takes the IMF’s hon. Gentleman reads out, the IMF, in its current advice and changes his deficit reduction plan? How bad forecasts for the UK economy, is very specific that the does it have to get? UK should not change its fiscal stance. It has consistently recommended that this country undertake credible deficit Mr Osborne: We are sorting out the mess that we reduction. The Government have set out many proposals— inherited from the Labour party. Much as I wish that controversial proposals—to get our budget deficit down, that could be done overnight, it cannot. So great was but in the 16 months that we have been in office we have the hole into which they put the British economy that it heard not one single suggestion from the shadow Chancellor takes time and effort to come out of it. on how he would get the deficit down. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Before my right hon. John Mann: Will the Chancellor give way? Friend was distracted, he quoted the previous Chancellor, Mr Osborne: I will take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention who writes in his memoirs of his last pre-Budget report. in a second. He says that any coherent strategy would have been better than none, but that the previous Government Last week, the Opposition tabled an amendment to simply did not have one. Are not the facts of the matter the Welfare Reform Bill that would have cost this country that the Labour party did not have a coherent economic £11 billion. That one amendment on one day in this strategy before the last general election, and that it still House of Commons shows how completely incredible does not have one, as we all clearly heard this afternoon they are. in the knockabout speech by the shadow Chancellor? Mr Watts: The IMF is changing its policy and calling for a plan B, as is business, the general public and Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The everybody else. When will the Chancellor introduce a previous Chancellor’s memoirs reveal the very divisive policy that will deliver growth? role that the shadow Chancellor played in stopping the previous Labour Government from coming up with a Mr Osborne: The policies that we have set out deliver coherent economic policy and a credible economic plan, the low interest rates that are essential for economic and even in stopping Nos. 10 and 11 talking to each growth. other. Nadhim Zahawi: The shadow Chancellor has quoted Mr Watts: Will the Chancellor tell the House what the IMF.Why does the Chancellor think that the Labour level of growth he inherited and what it is now? party voted against our subscription to the IMF? Why did the Labour Government not put their best people to Mr Osborne: I shall tell the hon. Gentleman what I work to deal with the deficit and the debt, but instead inherited as Chancellor and what this country inherited hire 17 people and spend £4.8 million on the euro from the previous Government: we inherited the second preparation unit? deepest recession in the entire world. The hon. Gentleman talks about GDP, but we had the biggest fall in GDP of Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend reminds me that one of any country in the world with the sole exception of the first things I did in the Treasury was shut down the Japan. euro preparation unit. More importantly— Several hon. Members rose— Ed Balls rose— Mr Osborne: I will give way in a moment, because I Mr Osborne: The shadow Chancellor, who has just want to ask Opposition Members some questions. The been quoting the IMF, wants to intervene again, but let House is today asked to support an Opposition motion me say this, because my hon. Friend the Member for that would add another £20 billion to the structural Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) reminds me of deficit. They maintain the fiction that they are sticking another important point. Will the shadow Chancellor with the so-called Darling plan on the deficit— explain why he led his party—not everyone in his party, [Interruption.] That is what they say. Does the shadow because I can see in the Chamber some prominent Chancellor agree? Labour Members who chose not to vote in that Division— into voting against a quota increase to the IMF, which Ed Balls indicated assent. was a central part of the London G20 summit chaired by the previous Prime Minister? How on earth does he Mr Osborne: Okay. The motion tears up the Darling think he could be taken seriously in any of the international plan—it is £27 billion off the plan set out in the March meetings taking place at the moment if he had succeeded 2010 Budget. That is the truth. in winning that vote? Why did he do it? Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab) rose— Ed Balls: As the former chair of the IMF deputies, I am a huge supporter of the IMF.The rise in subscriptions Mr Osborne: I shall give way to the parliamentary is important, but for the Chancellor to try to ram it private secretary to the former Prime Minister to defend through the House before he sorted out the flawed his record. 371 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 372

Alison McGovern: I will defend the record of our Jesse Norman: Does the Chancellor share my amazement former Prime Minister any day of the week, but will the at the lack of reality on the Opposition Benches? The Chancellor defend his own record, and tell the House eurozone is in crisis, the credit markets for the banking how far away he is from his deficit payback plan? system across Europe are in desperate straits, and yields are rising, and yet the Opposition would squander Mr Osborne: The hon. Lady has to defend the record £20 billion to £30 billion and increase our deficit. of the former Prime Minister because he never turns up in this House to defend it himself. Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Low The one thing that we want to avoid in a debt crisis is interest rates are a precious commodity for the UK at a sharp rise in interest rates, but that is what the motion the moment, and Members of the House, sent here to would bring about. Let me give the House some new represent their constituents, have to ask themselves, information. “Do we really want an increase in interest rates at this time?” Is that what we want? It is what the motion Several hon. Members rose— would lead to. Mr Osborne: I will give way in a moment. Let me Several hon. Members rose— make progress. Do not worry: there will be lots of opportunities for Opposition Members to answer my Mr Osborne: I shall give way to the member of the questions. Treasury Select Committee, the hon. Member for I can give the House new information on what just a Edmonton (Mr Love) and then the representative of 1% rise in interest rates would mean for this country at the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for Dundee the moment. Such a rise would cost British families an East (Stewart Hosie), and then I shall make some additional £10 billion a year in higher mortgage payments progress. and the British Government an additional £6 billion a year in higher interest costs, and it would increase our Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): How can net payments to foreign creditors by around £15 billion the Chancellor possibly describe as credible a deficit a year—£15 billion that would leave our economy. reduction programme that ends up increasing debt by Given the sums involved, the impact on family mortgages £46 billion? and small business loans would completely outweigh any fiscal effects of the proposals in the shadow Chancellor’s Mr Osborne: As I have said, the British structural motion. deficit is coming down because of the measures that we are taking, but the proposal put to the House today Several hon. Members rose— would push the budget deficit this year into double figures. No country in the world would consider that a Mr Osborne: I said that I will give way in a moment. sensible approach at a time such as this for a country Labour’s approach would lead to a credit downgrade of such as Britain. It is economic nonsense, and I suspect this country. The shadow Chancellor shakes his head, that the hon. Gentleman knows it. but there is no doubt about that any more. This is what the credit rating agency, Standard & Poor’s—[Laughter.] Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I thank the Opposition Members laugh at the credit rating agencies Minister for giving way. He is being very generous. May and the need for this country to preserve its triple A I take him back to his exchange with the shadow credit rating, but Standard & Poor’s says that the ratings Chancellor on IMF quotes? On 20 September, Monsieur would Decressin, the senior adviser to the IMF research “come under downward pressure if the Coalition’s commitment department, said that the IMF view was that to fiscal consolidation falters”. “policies in…the UK should only be loosened if growth really That is what we would get under Labour: a downgrade threatens to slow down substantially, relative to what we are forecasting. For so long as the forecast seems to pan out, there is to our credit rating, higher interest rates and the economy no reason to change fiscal plans.” sent into a tailspin. The IMF has set down a marker for growth and, in Several hon. Members rose— effect, said that if it falls substantially, as it is doing, it would accept fiscal loosening. Does the Chancellor Mr Osborne: I give way to the right hon. Member for recognise that if growth continues to flatline or fall, Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). there is at least an argument for fiscal loosening? Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Why Mr Osborne: The IMF is clear that on its forecasts, does the Chancellor give such credence to Standard & which are some of the more pessimistic forecasts for the Poor’s, which gave triple A ratings to every stupid, UK at the moment, it is not recommending a change in risk-taking banker, including those in Northern Rock? policy stance. That is what it says. It is what the managing Standard & Poor’s advised Northern Rock on one of its director has said; what the article 4 report on the UK products for about a year, and then surprisingly gave said; what the OECD is saying; and what all the business Northern Rock a triple A rating. Why should we take organisations in Britain are saying. That is why the path any notice of people like that? that the shadow Chancellor has laid out for the country is so incredible and does nothing to deal with the Mr Osborne: That, of course, is the attitude of the problems that he left to the country. Labour party. It ignores entirely the views of the world bond markets and the credit rating agencies. That is Richard Fuller: Will the Chancellor give way? exactly the approach that got Britain into this economic mess. Because the Government have a credible plan, we Mr Osborne: I shall take one more intervention and are pulling this country out of that mess. then make some progress. 373 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 374

Richard Fuller: In response to the question from the Is the Chancellor saying that Jonathan Portes, from the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), I would National Institute of Economic and Social Research, is say that that is not the answer to a debt recession, wrong? because a debt recession relies on credibility. One of the key points in the motion is that the Labour party’s Mr Osborne: My first point is that Jonathan Portes so-called plan would provide, through a temporary and I have had our disagreements for the past 16 months. reverse of the VAT increase, a benefit of £450 for every He was not my appointment to the Government, but couple with children. Has the Chancellor worked out the shadow Chancellor’s, and he is not working for the the benefit to average families in the country of maintaining Government any more. The second thing I want to say the credibility of our country’s finances and ensuring is that he cannot have it both ways. He cannot say that lower interest rates? Britain is alone in facing these problems, which was the implication of his speech, and then not look at long-term Mr Osborne: As I was just explaining, a 1% rise in interest rates—or, indeed, the short-term interest rates—in interest rates—I am not talking about the level of the United States and Germany, which are lower than interest rates in Spain and Italy—would mean £10 billion ours, although we are close to them. [Interruption.] in higher mortgage bills for British families. That is the The shadow Chancellor says that they are weak. One of reality of what the shadow Chancellor is proposing. our problems is that the German, US and French Ed Balls rose— economies have ground to a halt. That is why we also need a solution to the eurozone crisis, which has hit all Mr Osborne: I shall take the right hon. Gentleman’s western economies. His idea that Britain is unique in intervention, and then I shall make some progress and the world in facing these problems is frankly laughable. give way again later. Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): My constituents Ed Balls: The former chief economist at the Cabinet listening to this will be unable to comprehend all the Office, who actually drew up the plan B that the Chancellor statistics that the Chancellor is placing in front of us. then shelved, said in August: However, we are missing the human dimension. In “Low long-term interest rates appear to reflect economic weakness Rotherham, for the first time in nearly 20 years, and lack of market confidence in the prospects of the UK unemployment today rose above 10%. That is taking us economy, not the reverse.” back to the south Yorkshire de-industrialisation of the Is the Chancellor saying that the former chief economist 1980s. We are talking about real people. Does the Chancellor at the Cabinet Office, now head of the National Institute have even the tiniest nanoscintilla of doubt about his of Economic and Social Research, is wrong to say that policy? He has been in charge for nearly 18 months. low interest rates are a sign of lack of confidence and Does he have any concerns that perhaps his policy is not prospects for growth? working?

Mr Osborne: I am glad that I took that intervention, Mr Osborne: I am clear that what we are doing is because the implication is that the shadow Chancellor tough but necessary because of the very difficult situation wants higher interest rates in Britain. That is the revelation that we inherited. The right hon. Gentleman talked we have just heard from him, and it tells us everything about the impact in south Yorkshire. We inherited a about what he is proposing: a catchy five-point plan—the record budget deficit and a bigger recession than in any clue is in the title—for a conference speech that would other country in the world apart from Japan. That is put Britain back at the mercy of the international bond what we are recovering from. Arguably, it was the markets, with higher interest rates affecting families and biggest banking crash in the entire history of the businesses and causing homes to be repossessed and country—at a time when those banks were supposed to jobs to be lost. We will have no part in it. be regulated by the Government of which he was a Ed Balls rose— Minister. That is what we are dealing with. Of course, it is extremely difficult, and many countries are facing Mr Osborne: I have already given way quit a bit. I problems at the moment, but I think that the steps that shall give way again later when I have dealt with this we have taken have helped us to weather this global debt point and when perhaps the shadow Chancellor can storm and kept interest rates low for people in Rotherham. answer the questions that I am about to put to him. I shall come on to the steps that we can take to ensure that Rotherham does not suffer in the future as it has Ed Balls rose— done in recent years under the Labour Government.

Mr Osborne: All right. If he has a good point to Several hon. Members rose— make, he can make it. Ed Balls: The Chancellor—the Chancellor!—must be Mr Osborne: I shall make some progress and then the only person in the whole country who thinks that to take some more interventions. have Bank of England interest rates at less than 1% for I shall touch briefly—because we covered this during three months is a sign of economic strength, not of the Monday’s statement—on the situation in the eurozone. fact that our economy has not grown for a year and that I set out on Monday what I felt was needed and what unemployment is rising. The long-term interest rates at many in the world now feel is needed: we need to the long end of the curve are a reflection of expectations ring-fence the eurozone by giving its bail-out fund that those interest rates will stay persistently low. The maximum power; recapitalise Europe’s banks when they former chief economist said that they are weak; resolve the situation in Greece; and then set “reflect economic weakness and lack of market confidence in the out the path to the political and economic changes prospects of the UK economy, not the reverse”. required to make monetary union work, with greater 375 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 376 fiscal integration and improvement in competitiveness well known centres of predatory business activity? on the periphery. I said that Britain wanted no part in [Laughter.] It would be laughable if it were not the the fiscal integration, but that we want to protect our centrepiece of the Opposition’s economic policy. say in the single market, financial services and competition issues. We also want the whole of the UK to become Ed Balls rose— more competitive—with a more complete single market and freer trade. Mr Osborne: Tell us what it is all about. Since Monday’s statement, we have had the news that Ed Balls: What is completely laughable is taking a the Slovakian Parliament has voted down the proposed lecture from this Chancellor on growth. Let me ask him changes to the eurozone financial fund—the European this. The Prime Minister’s out-of-touch statement that financial stability facility—which is clearly a disappointment. consumers should just pay off their credit cards—did We all hope that it will pass in the coming days and urge he write it or did he ask for it to be taken out? the Slovakian Parliament to pass it. What has also been disappointing in the past couple of days is the suggestion Mr Osborne: The Prime Minister gave his speech, from the President of the European Commission that which the shadow Chancellor should have paid close Britain should make a direct contribution to eurozone attention to, and made it absolutely clear that people bail-outs. Britain chose not to join the euro and the are paying off their credit cards—because of the situation British Prime Minister has fought hard to get Britain that the Labour party has left this country in—but I out of the bail-out fund to which the previous Government would ask the shadow Chancellor this question. He had signed us up. I want to make it clear that whatever the a chance before; will he please mention—just once, in Commission President says, British taxpayers will not one intervention—the policy of the Labour leader? be contributing to the eurozone’s bail-out of Greece—full Come on, just get up and say you support it. stop. However, we will work with our eurozone partners to help them to resolve the crisis and work with our Ed Balls: I think the research and development tax international partners in institutions such as the IMF to credit to encourage and incentivise investment in research ensure that they have the resources to deal with the and development was a good thing. I think our proposal problems across the world. to cut national insurance for small companies that take on more employees is a good policy. It was in the I said that the first thing missing from the shadow Leader of the Opposition’s speech; it was in our five-point Chancellor’s speech was a credible deficit plan, but plan; it is in the motion—so why do Government Members there was— not vote for it? Gavin Shuker: Will the Chancellor give way? Mr Osborne: I guess that is called an “Ed Balls endorsement”—that is what the last Chancellor and Mr Osborne: Let me make just a little bit of progress Tony Blair got used to. We increased the R and D tax and then I shall give way. credit for small businesses in the Budget, so we have There was an absolutely staggering second omission taken that idea—which we came up with—and introduced from the shadow Chancellor’s speech, which was any it. I am very pleased that the Labour party now supports reference—I will take an intervention if I have got this it, but what about this idea that a Labour Chancellor wrong—to Labour’s big new economic policy idea, would sit there in No. 11 with his home-made scales of which was unveiled at the Labour conference two weeks justice weighing up the companies he likes and those he ago. I am referring, in case hon. Members have forgotten, does not like and levying different levels of tax on them? to that great plan to divide British businesses into What happened to that? It was the centrepiece of the producers and predators—good and bad—and to levy Labour conference two weeks ago, and it shows why different tax rates on them. Remember the speech from Labour simply cannot be trusted to run the economy of the Labour leader? Did the shadow Chancellor have this country and why it has become the anti-business any part in writing that speech? party again. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Ed Balls: It was a very good speech. Cleveland) (Lab): I thank the Chancellor for giving way. It is interesting that he brings up those points, but can Mr Osborne: At last there is something we agree on. he please tell us where the ghost—or the ghoul—of the It was absolutely the speech that we wanted to hear regional growth fund is? It has now been six months from the Labour leader at the Labour conference. I and the north-east is still waiting for the regional growth want to know what happened to this great idea, which fund money that it was promised. Businesses are hanging was the centrepiece of Labour’s growth strategy for the on the wire for that money. Will he please tell us where new economy. Two weeks later it is not even referred to that cash is? in the motion that we are being asked to debate. It is like the Lord Lucan of policy ideas: we do not know whether Mr Osborne: Again, that was another opportunity to it is dead already or whether it has just gone missing for talk about Labour’s big economy idea. The hon. Gentleman ever. I was really disappointed, because we know that did not take it, but I am glad that he raised the regional the shadow Chancellor likes to cover all the policy areas growth fund, which has allocated money to the north-east in the shadow Cabinet and I was hoping for an explanation and other parts of the country. That money is flowing from him about how the idea was going to work. Are we and those projects will get going. We are also setting up supposed to grow our economy by levying new taxes enterprise zones in Teesside and Tyneside, and doing and regulations on companies owned by private equity what we can to get the north-east economy, which also firms such as Boots, T-Mobile, the AA, Saga, Somerfield, suffered in recent years, on the front foot, creating Legoland and Chessington World of Adventures, those private sector jobs so that that region, too, has prosperity. 377 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 378

Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I am grateful Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): The Chancellor to the Chancellor for giving way. I welcome the work has been very generous in giving way, although not so that he and his colleagues are doing on a growth strategy, generous in actually answering the questions that he has which he said is needed. A big component of that is the been asked. He has just laid out all the things that he is £75 billion of quantitative easing. We are also told that doing to put things right, yet the economy is flatlining, there will be credit easing to get the money into private with record youth unemployment and no growth back companies. Will that be on top of the £75 billion in the economy. What is he going to do to improve the injection or within it? situation? Does he not recognise that we cannot just cut the deficit if we do not have growth? Mr Osborne: It will be on top of the £75 billion. I have not gone through the QE and credit easing policies Mr Osborne: We would not have growth if there was in detail today because I went through them in the a big increase in interest rates. Let us look at other House on Monday, but I would be happy to do so if countries in the world that do not have a credible plan Members like. QE is an operation undertaken by the to deal with their deficits. Of course this is a difficult Bank of England under the procedures established by time, when many western economies have this problem, my predecessor. The credit easing options that we are but we are taking the tough steps necessary to get the looking at involve the Treasury—or rather the economy going and make it easier for businesses to hire Government—using its balance sheet to get money to people, which brings me on— small businesses either by purchasing securitised small loans, purchasing mid-cap company bonds in the bond Several hon. Members rose— market or issuing guarantees through the banking system. All those things currently happen in Britain, but on a Mr Osborne: I will take interventions in a moment, very small scale. Our intention is greatly to increase because I want to know the Labour attitude to these them, and I will set out the proposals in November. policies that we are proposing. We are proposing to extend the probation period David Wright (Telford) (Lab): I am grateful to the before a new employee can make an unfair dismissal Chancellor for letting me intervene. Would he be willing claim from one to two years. We are also proposing to to release all the information relating to meetings and introduce, for the first time ever, a fee that someone has discussions that he had with the Governor of the Bank to pay before they can take a case to an employment of England on introducing the latest phase of QE, and tribunal and which they get back if they win. Those are does he anticipate that we may need more? two difficult measures; they are controversial, but they will make it easier and less risky for businesses to hire Mr Osborne: No, and not even in my memoirs, because people. I want to know whether the Labour party will the conversations between the Chancellor and the Governor support those measures when they come before the of the Bank of England should be confidential. However, House of Commons. Will it? I want to know whether let me make it absolutely clear to the hon. Gentleman the right hon. Gentleman will support these things that we are talking about an entirely independent decision when they come before the House of Commons. Yes or by the Monetary Policy Committee—not just the Governor no? of the Bank—and that I followed exactly the procedures established by my predecessor. Ed Balls: Let me just ask the Chancellor—[HON. MEMBERS: “Answer!”] Let me ask him a question to help Gavin Shuker rose— us to shape our view. Will the impact of extending that probation period from one year to two years Mr Osborne: No, I will make some progress and then disproportionately hit men more than women, or women perhaps take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman. more than men? We did not hear today about the big Labour idea on the economy that was unveiled two weeks ago. Hitting Mr Osborne: It is not going to hit people; it is going businesses with more taxes and more regulation at a to help people into work. I want to know another thing time like this is absolutely the wrong thing. The way to from the shadow Chancellor. I have made it clear that help businesses to create jobs is to give them competitive this proposal is going to help people to get into work tax rates. That is why we have cut corporation tax this and help businesses to hire men and women to do jobs year—we have three more cuts to come—and why we without taking the risk that they might bring an unfair have reversed the proposed Labour increase in the dismissal claim within the first couple of years. He kept small companies tax rate and frozen business rates talking about the Federation of Small Businesses in his for all. It is also why we have set up a series of speech; it supports the proposal. Does he? It is a simple schemes to help unemployed people who have either question. Yes or no? just lost their jobs or never had a job into the labour market by getting them work. We have launched the Ed Balls: Let me ask the Chancellor a question—[HON. biggest back-to-work scheme that the country has seen MEMBERS: “Answer!”] This is important. We need to in 80 years and funded 250,000 more apprenticeships know the facts before we take a view. Will women have and 100,000 work experience places. Today we have to wait two years before they have any right to statutory launched the new sector-based work academies to help maternity pay under his proposals? tens of thousands of young people with training and job interviews. Youth unemployment in this country Mr Osborne: No, no—I am talking about claims for has been rising since 2004. The last Government did unfair dismissal, and I want to know whether the right next to nothing to confront it; we are rolling up our hon. Gentleman supports those proposals. This is not sleeves and getting stuck in to sort out this long-term about statutory maternity pay; it is about extending the problem for Britain. probation period for unfair dismissal. 379 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 380

Here is another question for the Labour party. The we already pay £120 million every day in debt interest, can trade unions are proposing to go on strike this autumn. he tell us how much extra debt interest we would be That is what they are balloting on. I think everyone in paying every day if those Labour proposals went through? the House would agree that a strike is absolutely the worst thing for the British economy at the moment, and Mr Osborne: I have not got that calculation on me, I want to know whether Labour will support that strike but I will certainly give it to my hon. Friend and use it at or condemn it. Is the shadow Chancellor going to a future opportunity, because it is a reminder that this condemn the strike—yes or no? And I do not want any money is coming directly out of the Government coffers weasel words about a proper negotiation process; I in debt interest payments every single day. want to know whether, if it comes to a strike, he will condemn it. Several hon. Members rose— Ed Balls: The whole country wants to avoid a strike, Mr Osborne: I will make a little progress, as I know but that will require this Chancellor to change his that many people want to speak in the debate. proposals on a deeply unfair 3% rise in pension contributions. We can avoid a strike, but it will require We have taken steps to try to help people who are this inflexible Chancellor to do the right thing, not the facing this difficult situation. We have announced a wrong thing. freeze in council tax, not just this year but next year, and we have taken more than 1 million people out of Mr Osborne: That is another thing that Labour refuses income tax and delivered an income tax cut for 20 million to condemn. There we have it. We asked the former more. The shadow Chancellor often talks about fairness Labour Work and Pensions Secretary, Lord Hutton, to in paying for all those things, but I want to know why, in do a report for us. In his interim report, he set out a case all the years that he was chief economic adviser to the for increased contributions. In his final report, he set previous Government, he blocked and never introduced out proposals for the defined benefit. We are negotiating a permanent bank levy. Why did he never introduce a on the basis of that. I want to know whether, if it comes higher charge for long-staying non-doms? Why did he to a strike, the people who are paid for by the trade never conclude a tax treaty with Switzerland to get back unions are going to condemn trade union activity that some of the money that should be paid into the British would be the wrong thing for the British economy at the Exchequer? moment. Will the shadow Chancellor condemn it? Ed Balls rose— Bill Esterson: The only people in this country who want a strike are the people sitting on the Government Mr Osborne: I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman Benches, because they think that they will get a short-term after I have made this point. His only achievement in political gain from it. The Chancellor has mentioned that field was to introduce a capital gains tax regime so interest rates a number of times. Is it not the truth that riddled with loopholes that some of the richest people they, and confidence, are low because the economy has in this country boasted about paying less tax than the ground to a standstill because of his policies? Will he people who cleaned their houses. Is he proud of that confirm that? record? Mr Osborne: I will tell the hon. Gentleman what would damage confidence: a strike by the trade unions Ed Balls: Under Labour, child poverty fell by more this autumn. Opposition Members are the people who than 500,000. Will the Chancellor tell the House what, are paid for by the trade unions, and I want to know according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, will happen whether they are going to condemn the strike or not. to child poverty this year and the year after? Will it fall, or is it going to rise under his chancellorship? Several hon. Members rose— Mr Osborne: The IFS says that child poverty is rising, Mr Osborne: I will make a bit of progress before I but the reason it is rising is that the right hon. Gentleman give way. put this country into a complete economic mess. I can Not only are we taking measures to make it easier to see my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for employ people and putting in place measures to get Work and Pensions standing at the Bar of the House. people back into work—[Interruption.] They are not He is introducing universal credit, which will do more going to hit women; they are going to help women get than any other measure to bring child poverty down, to into work. We have also announced new investment in give opportunities to people who have none at all, and local transport links. We are spending more on roads to ensure that work pays. That is what we are doing, and and railways than the last Labour Government did. We I want to know whether the shadow Chancellor supports have plans for 200,000 new homes, many of them on the that. Does he? back of a new right to buy. We have created two dozen new enterprise zones, and this month committed almost Ed Balls: I support welfare reform—[HON.MEMBERS: £250 million to world-beating scientific research. That “Ah!”] Of course I do, but I have to say that I hope the is because, unlike the last Government, we think it is Chancellor will give the Work and Pensions Secretary important that things are made in Britain again. the money to make it work. The IFS said this week that any gain in child poverty through universal credit would Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): The be more than swamped by the Chancellor’s other measures, Chancellor has just told us that there have been £31 billion particularly the change from RPI to CPI, so that the fall of extra Labour spending pledges—£11 billion from an in child poverty under Labour would be reversed under amendment last week and £20 billion today. Given that the Tories. Is the IFS right? 381 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 382

Mr Osborne: I thought that Labour supported the to do it—and we know why. If he did, it would be the link to CPI. Is the shadow Chancellor changing his final damning indictment of the economic policies he mind on that? In the debates, the Labour party supported imposed on this country for a decade or more. It would the link to CPI, and he has just raised the matter. Has be the final confirmation that his promise to end boom he changed his mind? [Interruption.] Thank God he and bust—remember that?—led to the greatest boom has a new shadow Chief Secretary to give him the and the biggest bust this country has ever seen. answer. What did we get? No apology; no mention of Labour’s latest economic idea; no credible plan to reduce the Ed Balls: We have always said that we would support deficit. That is why Labour is neither convincing nor a temporary rise in CPI during this Parliament, but that credible on the economy. Yes, these are difficult times; we would not support a permanent rise. It is a permanent yes, this is a global debt crisis. We are dealing with rise that will see child poverty rising year on year under Britain’s record debt problems. We have set out a course the Tories. Child poverty fell under Labour; it will rise to ride through the storm and build a more prosperous under the Tories. That tells us everything that we need future. Today we were reminded that no one, least of all to know. the people who got us into the mess, has produced a convincing alternative to the course we have set. Mr Osborne: The shadow Chancellor is all over the place. He was asking me about child poverty numbers in 2012, 2013 and 2014, and he said that, according to the Several hon. Members rose— IFS, the principal cause of the rise was a policy to link benefit increases to CPI. That is a policy supported for Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I this Parliament—that is, in 2012, 2013 and 2014—by inform the House that more than 40 Members wish to the Labour Opposition, and it is complete hypocrisy for participate in this afternoon’s debate, so Mr Speaker them to complain about it now. Will the shadow Chancellor has applied an eight-minute time limit to all speeches confirm that he supports the CPI policy for this from the Back Benches from now on. Parliament—yes or no? 3.12 pm Ed Balls: The permanent rise in CPI is a mistake. Will the Chancellor confirm his support for the law of this Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): land that child poverty should be abolished by 2020? As the Chancellor has referred to my book—and no doubt others will do so, too—perhaps I should draw the Mr Osborne: We have kept that target, but the right House’s attention to my declaration in the Register of hon. Gentleman has still not confirmed that— Members’ Financial Interests. [Interruption.] I welcome the shadow Chief Secretary From listening to the Chancellor, it is easy to forget to her position, but I have to tell her that the shadow one important fact. When we left office in 2010, our Chancellor has just raised with me the question of the economy was growing; 12 months later, our economy is IFS estimates on child poverty over this Parliament. not growing at all. Growth has stalled, probably for The IFS says that one of the principal causes is the more than a year. Despite everything that the Chancellor policy on the link to CPI. That is the IFS’s view, and his colleagues said during the last election about its although universal credit will do a huge amount to all being the fault of the last Labour Government and offset that impact. It is a policy supported by the nothing to do with global problems or Europe, our Labour party, and it is completely hypocritical of the economy was growing. Now, 16 months after that general Labour party to come to this Parliament and raise those election, while the Chancellor has been in charge and statistics and complain about that policy when they said responsible for setting the economic direction, our economy they supported it all along. has stopped growing. Even a few months ago people believed that we might see a slow but gradual climb out Several hon. Members rose— of recession into growth, but now, right across the Mr Osborne: Let me make a little progress, as I know world, people are seriously worried that we could be in many Members want to speak. for a prolonged period of stagnation—at tremendous cost to the country, as today’s unemployment figures I shall touch finally and briefly on the last thing show. missing from the shadow Chancellor’s speech—and we all know what that was. It was an apology for everything Sajid Javid rose— that had gone wrong. The right hon. Gentleman has apologised for so many things now—for the worst banking crash in our history, the 10p tax rate, the 75p pensions George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con) rose— increase, gold, although I am not sure that he has apologised for that, the feuds in Downing street—yet he Mr Darling: According to Madam Deputy Speaker’s still refuses to apologise for spending and borrowing ruling, I have only eight minutes, which means I can too much. He said that Labour did not spend “more give way twice to my benefit; after that, it counts against money” than “we had available”, but he missed his me. I will, however, give way to the hon. Member for golden rule by more than £400 billion. He doubled and Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid). then redoubled the national debt. Everyone knows he was spending too much, and everyone has said so. The Sajid Javid: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for IFS, since he mentioned it, has said so; Tony Blair has giving way. He said in his recent memoirs that Labour said so; the last Chancellor conceded it in 2007. It is an still needs to offer a “clear and viable alternative”. Does open secret that half the shadow Cabinet wants him to he believe that he has heard that today from the shadow make this apology, but the shadow Chancellor refuses Chancellor? 383 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 384

Mr Darling: As we have heard today, the shadow do now, 16 months later, when economic growth has Chancellor and the Labour party are still adopting my stalled, and what other measures are necessary to get policy on the deficit. It was a sensible policy when I first the economy going. announced it in 2008, and it is still a sensible policy My right hon. Friend is also quite right to say that, today. The heart of my present argument is that while although a few months ago very few people were talking no one doubts that the deficit has to come down, the about the need to reduce taxes, bring forward capital judgment to be made is about how fast we bring it down spending or take measures to help businesses, that has and the risks involved in doing so too fast and ending now become common currency among many up crashing the economy. That is the position we have commentators. It is only the present Government who reached today. simply do not accept that the plan they announced It is interesting that the International Monetary Fund 16 months ago is not working. As my right hon. Friend has been much discussed this afternoon. It is worth said, the Chancellor has had to downgrade his growth reading what the IMF and Christine Lagarde, who talks forecast four times. I remember his having great fun at a lot of sense on these issues, have been saying. Of my expense when saying that my growth forecasts were course the IMF is always going to be wary of taking on wrong. Actually, mine lasted a lot longer than his. He one of its principal shareholders, but we do not have to should reflect on that and on the fact that he is having read too far between the lines to see what the IMF is to borrow more. saying. It is saying quite clearly that there is now a I raised another point about quantitative easing with serious risk of a slow-down in major economies, including the Chancellor on Monday and I hope we will hear our own, which will result in not less but more borrowing, more about it. If that money does not leave the vaults of and economies stagnating. the banks and get out on to the high streets, it will have It is also interesting that when the Bank of England failed. I know that the Chancellor has had exactly the announced last week further measures of quantitative same trouble with the Bank of England as I had. I easing, which I support, it did so against a completely could not persuade it to buy corporate assets; he has different background from its first announcement in obviously failed as well, which is why he has had to 2009. The Bank is now worried about what is happening think up his own scheme. We really need to get that in Europe, which means that the economy is slowing money out on to the high streets; if it is not manifested down. The Bank is seriously worried about the lack of in the form of loans to businesses, it will simply not growth. The QE announcement last week is just the work. beginning of what might be called plan B or even I note that the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matthew plan 1A, because the Bank is worried. That is why it is Hancock) is no longer in his place. He said that quantitative changing direction. easing works only when there is a credible policy. Given I was pleased to hear the Chancellor talking about that the Bank of England has said that it worked, we credit easing for businesses on top of the £75 billion. must have had a credible policy at the time. I am sorry Surely that is at least some recognition of the fact that that the hon. Gentleman is not here to hear that; he the plan he announced with so much confidence last might want to ponder it when he reads Hansard tomorrow summer, which was going to do so much to reduce our morning, as I am sure he will. The Chancellor needs to borrowing, is not working. He has to adapt it and my ensure that the money gets out on to the high street; bet is that—whether it be in the autumn statement in a otherwise, it will fail. It is remarkable that the Bank of month’s time or in next year’s Budget—we will see more England is almost now doing what the Government measures that acknowledge that the policy pursued by should be doing. It recognises that the policy is not this Government is simply not working. If we do not working, which is why it has embarked on another change it, we will pay a very heavy price. round of quantitative easing. Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con) rose— The Chancellor is fond of saying that all our problems are on account of the eurozone. That, too, is remarkable. Mr Darling: I will gain another minute by giving way When he came into office, the Tory story, backed by the to the hon. Gentleman, so I will do so. Liberal Democrats, was that it was all the fault of the last Labour Government. All was fine with the rest of Kwasi Kwarteng: I am grateful. Will the right hon. the world, so it was just Labour’s overspending that was Gentleman tell us how he voted in the IMF subscription responsible. Incidentally, the Chancellor supported it vote? right up to the end of 2008 and the Liberal Democrats supported it until the day after the general election, so it Mr Darling: I have always made my position clear. could not have all have been wrong at that stage. Now One of the big achievements of April’s G20 meeting, they are saying that the problem is not domestic at all; led by the then Prime Minister my right hon. Friend the that it is all to do with what is happening in the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), eurozone. was to get countries to sign up to an increase in IMF Of course the eurozone is a major problem and it is funding. That has always been my position, and I am becoming a bigger one by the day. I hope the Chancellor not going to depart from it because I believe that the was right when he said at the beginning of the week that IMF has a central role to play. With respect to the hon. wiser counsels are prevailing in Europe, but I am not so Gentleman, his intervention does not get him off the sure. We should remember this: although people talk central point of this debate, which is what is different about the fact that the German Parliament ratified the now from the position when we left office. My deficit deal a couple of weeks ago—and Slovakia will probably reduction plan was on the back of an economy that had put it through later this week—it was in fact agreed in started to grow, so my right hon. Friend the shadow July, and it is blindingly obvious that it is now out of Chancellor is quite right to ask himself what we need to date. At that time no one would talk about Greek 385 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 386

[Mr Darling] 3.22 pm default, whereas now everyone knows that Greece will Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): This debate default, and the only question is whether it will be done about growth contains three distinct components, although, in a managed way or become a disorderly breakdown. of course, there are close connections between them: the strategy to stabilise the public finances, the strategy Another thing that is obvious—the Chancellor to secure recovery, and the strategy to raise the long-run acknowledged this on Monday—is that the austerity growth rate. I want to say a little about each of those. measures being imposed on Greece simply are not working. Greece is reaching a point at which it is There has been a fair amount of partisan politics unlikely to be able to repay the interest on its borrowing, around today, and I do not intend to add to it unless let alone reduce its borrowing and debt. The policy of severely provoked. As I have said in the House a number austerity endorsed by far too many European countries of times before, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh over the last 16 months or so worked at first, but it is South West (Mr Darling) deserves considerable credit not working now, and Greece is living proof of that. for his March 2010 Budget, with its plans for sharp cuts in spending and borrowing. Equally, the coalition deserves I hope that something compelling and convincing credit for its own plans. Our present low debt service will be agreed at the G20 in a couple of weeks’ time, but costs speak for themselves. They reflect the credibility I have my doubts. The trouble with the eurozone countries invested by markets in the deficit reduction strategy and is that they are still fighting as though nothing has the belief that the coalition will stick with it, and the changed since the early summer, which has been their country will be the beneficiary of that. position since the early part of 2009. If we have any influence I hope that we will bring it to bear. If we do As for policies to secure recovery, we can all agree not, there is a risk, as the Chancellor himself recognises, that, given the eurozone crisis, the international economic that if things go wrong in the eurozone they will affect outlook is much worse than forecast either by the right this country. While I agree with the Chancellor that we hon. Gentleman in his Budget 18 months ago or by the should certainly should not contribute to the bailing Office for Budget Responsibility this spring, and I am out of the eurozone, he is also right to say that a sure more surprises will follow. However, it is not true break-up of the euro at the present time is the last thing that the Government are doing nothing in response, as that the world economy needs, ourselves included. the right hon. Gentleman implied. They have rightly adapted to the situation, and the recovery strategy has That brings me to our policies back at home. I have changed. The Bank of England has adapted by announcing always believed that reducing public expenditure at the second tranche of quantitative easing, and the such a rate, in a climate in which the private sector is Chancellor will adapt by announcing credit easing in not taking its place, risks crashing the economy. I his autumn statement. reached that view when my party was in office, and I still hold it today. The evidence seems to suggest that I strongly endorse the Chancellor’s decision to favour that is precisely what is happening now, and that is why monetary policy as the short-term tool rather than it is so damaging. tinkering with tax changes, which is what is proposed in the five-point plan. I am sure that the Treasury Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Will the right Committee will want to examine exactly how the hon. Gentleman give way? Government have changed their policy on the recovery strategy and whether QE2 and credit easing are the best Mr Darling: I will not, because it will count against tools, but I think everybody can agree that it was timely me if I give way again. to take action. We can also agree that British taxpayers should not be asked to contribute to any further eurozone I hope that the Chancellor will produce measures to bail-out. deal with the situation. He may wish to embark on infrastructure projects, although in my experience that is much easier said than done, and the interval between John Mann: History shows that the use of monetary making a plan and putting a shovel into the ground can policy has invariably led to an increase in inflation, be a long one. Some of the road schemes that the which has sometimes been a hidden deliberate policy Chancellor mentioned were planned by the Labour aim. Regardless of whether it is a good or a bad policy, Government—one of them back in the 1970s—so we does the hon. Gentleman expect an upward drift of should not get too carried away about them. However, inflation as the conclusion to the way in which monetary he should certainly introduce the tax reductions and policy is currently being used? other measures to help businesses to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood Mr Tyrie: I will not answer that at any length, except (Ed Balls) ascribed such importance. to say that I am of course making my points in a It is clear to me that we cannot resign ourselves to personal capacity, because as a Committee we may circumstances in which people feel that nothing can be comment on growth after the autumn statement. Let done, that it is all inevitable, and that nature must take me also point out that the Governor gave a comprehensive its course. Governments can make a difference—they reply to the hon. Gentleman’s question when he introduced made a difference two years ago at the G20 in 2009—but the second £75 billion tranche of measures. He pointed we currently have no international leadership, and we out that money demand was extremely low at present, have precious little leadership from our own Government and that therefore he thought that the risk of inflation when it comes to what we should be doing in this over the next two to three years was extremely low. country. There is, and there must be, an urgency attached to getting these things right, but that means a change of Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Will my hon. policy here at home as well. Friend give way? 387 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 388

Mr Tyrie: I will give way for a second time. I will that again today. Of even greater significance could be adopt the same policy as the right hon. Member for the Chancellor’s commitment not to push ahead of Edinburgh South West, and pick up the maximum other European countries on carbon reduction targets. injury time. I and many other people have been arguing for that for a long time, all the way back to our deliberations on the Mr Brazier: As well as monetary pressure being extremely Climate Change Act 2008. The rapid pace of carbon low at present, some of the larger ticket items such as reduction will push up business costs and also provoke commercial and domestic property which are outside great controversy, for example in respect of wind farms. the usually looked at measures such as CPI and RPI Therefore, the Government are right to think again have been going down rather than up. about that policy. It is now crucial that the coming autumn statement gives a decisive push to measures for Mr Tyrie: I broadly agree with that. There is always a improving long-run economic performance. It is equally problem with measuring inflation—there is always a important that that is seen not as a programme for a dispute about exactly how to capture it best—and we year, but as a remorseless project for the long term. will never get it exactly right. I will not go into any further details now, but I agree with the core of what my For much of the last decade, politicians of both hon. Friend has said. major parties talked as if the economy need no longer Work on both the deficit reduction plan and the be the top priority. For it was an age of abundance: it recovery plan have been firefighting to deal with our seemed that we could concentrate on how to spend it inheritance—less from the right hon. Member for and quality-of-life issues. We forgot that most politics is Edinburgh South West than from his predecessor, the hot air unless the economy can afford to deliver on the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath promises made by politicians. The complacency about (Mr Brown). Let me now deal with the third aspect of growth that infected both parties encouraged the the growth strategy, which consists of policies to improve irresponsible lending and borrowing of the last decade. the long-run growth rate and long-run economic The electorate have noticed that they were led up the performance: what the policy wonks call supply-side garden path, most notably by the absurd claim that reform. The coalition’s inheritance needed attention in Governments could put an end to boom and bust—so that regard as well. my final point is a presentational one. Politicians and Parliament must demonstrate that the public’s No. 1 A few days ago I made a number of proposals for priority is also their own No. 1 priority. The electorate’s supply-side reform in a pamphlet, and they seemed to No. 1 priority at present is to protect their living standards make everyone very excited. The Government growth and their children’s prospects. agenda set out in the spring was a start, but, as the Chancellor said in his party conference speech, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I now have to “We need to do more”. announce the result of the deferred Division on the In that pamphlet, in a personal capacity, I made a few question relating to tribunals and inquiries. The Ayes suggestions. In a nutshell, we need to work much harder were 309 and the Noes were 20, so the Ayes have it. to produce a comprehensive strategy embracing tax, [The Division list is published at the end of today’s reform of the labour markets, financial regulation, energy debates.] policy, transport and competition policy. We have been firefighting so far, but now is the time to start developing that longer term strategy. 3.32 pm It is worth bearing in mind that it took the Thatcher Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): This Government’s Administration the best part of four years to get round refusal thus far to countenance a plan B will come back to doing much of this, and I realise that this type of to haunt the Chancellor, the Chief Secretary and the policy is easy to talk about but difficult to deliver. What Prime Minister. The current plan to remove the entire matters most is that the creative energies of small businesses structural deficit in the fixed time scale of a single in our constituencies are released to increase the long-run Parliament was incredibly risky to start with, and now growth potential of the economy. That is a big reform appears almost impossible. It was dependent on export job. We have to bear in mind all the time that it involves growth from a strong eurozone, which is not there. To millions of people—small traders and people working be fair, the overall trade figures are a little better this in small businesses—and that it is they who will restore year: the balance of trade is £9 billion in the red for the the economy to health, not Governments and not first quarter, but in the second quarter it stood at Parliament. We need to make it much easier for them. £24 billion in the red, and the aggregate for the first two Let us consider just one area: taxation. The Treasury quarters is almost as much as last year’s catastrophic Committee has flagged up some of the—largely £99 billion deficit in the trade in goods out-turn. inherited—contradictions and inconsistencies in the tax The Government’s plan depended on business investment system, and argues that further tax reforms should be growth of a rather heroic 8% to 11% each and every based on a few simple and coherent principles: certainty, year, but that is not there either. Indeed, the gross fixed simplicity, stability and fairness. We are a long way from capital investment figures for this year show that investment achieving that in our tax system and there is a lot still to fell by 2% in the first quarter and is lower than in the do. Encouragingly, the Chancellor said he strongly same quarter in 2010. Growth is now effectively flatlining, supported tax simplification; he has made that point on and although borrowing was down between April and a number of occasions and he has created the Office of August, it is up between August this year and August Tax Simplification. last year and is forecast to be as much as £46 billion The Chancellor announced in his speech at last week’s greater. Therefore, something needs to change, not least Conservative party conference that he would push ahead because according to the National Institute of Economic with further labour market reforms, and he has mentioned and Social Research it is likely that the entire consolidation 389 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 390

[Stewart Hosie] So the Chancellor needs to stimulate now, and the best way of doing so is through direct capital investment. plan will cut almost an entire percentage point off GDP As we know, the OBR has said that the impact multiplier growth this year. It has said that for this is 1:1. It is the most effective form of stimulus “it remains our view that in the short term fiscal policy is too that the Government have and they should use it. It is tight, and a modest loosening would improve prospects for output also the area where the Government can make the most and employment with little or no negative effect on fiscal credibility.” damaging cut. I know that he wants to tell me that they If the Government are concerned, as they would be are keeping £2 billion more in direct capital investment right to be, about the credibility of their plan and if than Labour planned, but very large cuts are still being others are saying that a modest loosening, which would made. It was not just the OBR saying this, as the British help growth, would have no impact on the credibility of Private Equity and Venture Capital Association was the plan, they should listen, not least because if they do doing so too. On 23 September, it cited the OBR’s view not, the entire deficit reduction strategy is at risk, as the that NIESR suggests. “boosting capital spending is a far more effective way of boosting GDP than cutting VAT, tweaking welfare entitlements or increasing On 2 August, the NIESR said that if things go on as current spending. In fact, the OBR’s multiplier on capital spending they are: is one-for-one…This means that the Government could increase “The Chancellor will miss his primary target of balancing the capital spending and still deliver the planned reduction in net debt cyclically adjusted current budget by…around 1 per cent of as a share of GDP.” GDP.” So again, there is no lack of credibility in changing Perhaps the Chancellor has listened and perhaps that is policy and there is no impact in the planned reduction what he was alluding to in his statement on 11 August of net debt as a share of GDP in changing the policy. when he said that we should be “realistic” about the The BVCA goes on to say: dangers in the global economy and “set our expectations “There are other good reasons for targeting infrastructure. The accordingly.” I pressed him at the time on that and he dramatic cuts to the investment budget that were pushed through was not very forthcoming. If he is to change his expectations, last year will weigh substantially on private sector productivity in he is, as the previous Chancellor said, going to have to the years ahead. Capital spending is due to be cut by about a third change his policy as well. in cash terms between FY09/10 and FY15/16, implying an even larger real decline.” So if the UK Government really are serious about Richard Graham: The Opposition motion, which the private sector growth in the medium and long term, hon. Gentleman presumably supports, focuses very much they should be very concerned that a body such as the on a plan for jobs and growth. I would like to share with BVCA is prepared to say that cuts now will weigh him some statistics that I found with the help of the substantially on private sector productivity in the years Library. They show that between 1997 and 2010, when ahead. Of course, its key point is not even that. It states the shadow Chancellor was the previous Government’s that chief economic adviser, the number of jobs in business in my constituency shrank by 5,600, or by 13% of the “in order to have an immediate impact on activity, the Government employment work force in the entire constituency. From would need to start spending money straight away. That could mean dusting off some previously shelved plans, as there is no what I have heard today, plan B really amounts to point in waiting 12 months”— adding more mortgage costs for families and doing nothing for growth of jobs in the business sector. This I think it is right— Government are doing a lot to help that with structural “for any boost to be felt.” change. Does he agree? That is good advice and I hope the Chancellor is listening. Stewart Hosie: We believe that there has to be a The Chancellor does not need to focus only on capital change because this plan is not working. That will investment. He needs to ensure proper access to business involve: direct capital investment, which we know does finance and that the £75 billion of quantitative and work, and I shall come on to that; consumer confidence, credit easing hits the real economy. Evidence from which is vital; and access to bank finance. The Labour Japan suggests that bank lending fell during the whole Opposition’s motion is a good tactic to debate this quantitative easing exercise, and evidence here shows matter and we will back it, because in principle we want that between February 2009 and January 2010, when to see something done. However, if the hon. Gentleman £200 billion of QE was issued, bank lending fell month does not mind, I will concentrate on my proposals. on month and has remained below the starting point in I have said that there are problems with the Government’s every month since. That is extremely damaging. This plans. This has not just been about the absence of a time, the Chancellor must ensure that that money does strong eurozone to export to or of heroic rates of not go through a pipe to the banks to pack balance business investment; it has been about the fact that the sheets but touches the edges and hits the real economy. forecast rates of growth for this and the next years of Mr Love: Does not the evidence also show that 2.3%, 2.8%, 2.9%, 2.7% and 2.7%, as set out in the 2010 Project Merlin is failing? Does not the evidence also Budget, will not be achieved. Indeed, Robert Chote, the show that credit easing, although it is sensible in itself, head of the independent Office for Budget Responsibility, will take a long time to bring in? What we need is a said that even to achieve a 1.7% growth rate now would credible policy to finance small business. require “quarter-on-quarter growth rates of 1%...and there aren’t many Stewart Hosie: That is absolutely right. I heard the people out there expecting that.” Chancellor say this week that he has considered how the I suspect that there are no people in here expecting that. Government might fund business investment directly. 391 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 392

There is merit in that. I am prepared to give this term of they left us a rate of growth that simply was not QE and the credit easing a chance to work, but I tell the sustainable because it depended on ever-increasing public Chancellor that if the £75 billion-plus of new electronic expenditure—now, I note, more than 50% of GDP for money goes to the banks or is used to buy back Government the third year running—on a boom in commercial and debt and does not hit the real economy, neither the residential property prices that simply was not viable in banks nor the Government will be forgiven this time if the longer term, and on an over-blown banking and it fails. Too many businesses are hurting due to a lack of financial sector. We are now dealing with the consequences business finance. of the collapse of that sector. In the end, it was all an illusion. The previous David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Will the hon. Government created a pyramid of debt and called it Gentleman give way? investment. They spent all our money on an unreformed Stewart Hosie: No, I shall stick to the same adage as public sector without bringing the improvements in everyone else and give way twice. productivity that we saw over the same period in the The third thing that needs to be done is to restore private sector. On the capital side, they spent it on a consumer confidence and economic security.Fundamentally, whole series of expensively engineered, private finance that means keeping people in their jobs, and Government arranged schools, hospitals and the rest. Above all, as and their agencies remain responsible for plenty of jobs. was sadly confirmed yet again today, they left us a lost That means that pay policy in the public sector should generation of nearly 1 million youngsters under the age bring down the salaries of senior people, bonuses of 25 who were under-educated, underskilled and under- should be removed from senior public servants, there equipped for the needs of modern business. That is why should be temporary pay freezes for those on average I support a Government who are now laying the proper incomes, help should be provided for those earning foundations for genuine growth on top of their fiscal under £21,000 and specialist systems and a working consolidation plan by encouraging bank lending, cutting wage should be introduced for those earning least of all. taxes on business and cutting regulation. However,italsomeansdeliveringano-compulsory-redundancy I particularly welcome the announcement made by policy for staff employed by Government, the NHS and the Chancellor in Manchester, which he repeated today, the other public bodies when agreement can be reached. about reforming the rules regarding employment tribunals, Weknow that this plan—a mix of direct capital investment, which will make employment easier. That is one reason confidence, and improved business finance or taking why I support it—another is because it will reduce the some of the burden off businesses—can work. We have huge cost to business not only of the awards themselves seen it in Scotland, where even with the unemployment but of the time taken to manage and handle cases that figures published today,unemployment is lower,employment businesses would prefer not to get to tribunal. I also is higher and economic inactivity is lower. support it because it is fundamentally, as the Chancellor We know that such a mix of activity can work and, of has emphasised this afternoon, a deregulatory measure course, it is broadly in line with what Christine Lagarde that recognises the rights of non-workers—those who called for in September, when she said that are currently frozen out of the labour market but would “countries must act now—and act boldly—to steer their economies be prepared to work if businesses found it easier to take through this dangerous new phase of the recovery”. them on. It also mirrors her comment in August to the Financial Times when she said that Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): We are being “short-term measures must be supportive of growth, yet economical asked to accept that all small businesses that might take in terms of the impact on fiscal sustainability, and can include on employees have as their first consideration the possibility policies supporting employment creation, advancing planned of being faced with an industrial tribunal, but, of infrastructure and easing adjustment in housing markets.” course, if they are good employers, that is most unlikely There is no reason, other than dogma, not to follow the to happen. Surely, the fact that they cannot sell their ideas laid out by those on the Opposition Benches products if there is no demand for them because so today to kick the economy out of its torpor. I urge the many people are unemployed or feel at risk of Chancellor to use his autumn statement to do just that. unemployment, rather than whether they might be faced He can call it plan A-plus, he can call it plan B, but he with an industrial tribunal, is the most important must change, develop and deliver quickly. consideration for an employer in deciding whether to take on another employee. 3.44 pm Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): I remind the House Michael Fallon: Employers in my constituency tell me of my interest recorded in the register. that they will do almost anything to avoid taking on any There is some common ground on both sides of the single additional member of staff. The hon. Lady has to House. Growth is the key, and although the Government recognise that the number of cases jumped to a quarter cannot create jobs and businesses, they can set the of a million in 2009-10. I welcome the change. conditions for sustainable growth through sound money, I hope that there might be agreement across the a fair and competitive tax system, an infrastructure in House on my next point. The two things that seem to be which businesses can flourish and, above all, keeping missing at the moment in our quest for growth are cash control of their side of the economy—the public and confidence. I fully support what the Government finances. The previous Government clearly failed to do are doing to encourage bank lending. It beggars belief that. They failed to balance their budget for nine successive that there was no agreement in place with the banks to years after 2001 and they doubled then redoubled the stimulate lending to small businesses before the Merlin national debt, leaving us with the largest structural agreement was concluded this year. I support that deficit in the G20. Worse still, for the longer term, agreement, but I also share the scepticism of the Chancellor 393 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 394

[Michael Fallon] Treasury Committee, the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon). They were very good speeches, but and the former Chancellor about the stimulus that the that contrasts with what we heard before them, which is first round of quantitative easing may or may not have sad, in a way. given to bank lending. The jury seems to be out on that, Two kinds of people watch the parliamentary channel but what it does seem to have stimulated is inflation. during the day. There are people who will find the The Bank now admits, I think, that it may have added Front-Bench speeches lovely, because they are party between 0.75% and 1.5% to consumer price inflation. animals of either party, and they like the cut and thrust, Two years ago, consumer price inflation was 1.1%, whereas but there are also 100,000-odd additional people who today it is four times that. I hope that the Bank will be are, or could be, looking at that channel: those who, in mindful, if there is an inflationary effect, that inflation the last year—in the last quarter or month—have lost is already higher than we would like. If there is a their job. Almost a million youngsters between 16 and squeezed middle, inflation is doing quite a bit of the 24 are out of work; they could be watching that channel, squeezing, and I hope that the Bank will not forget its hoping that they will see that action will be taken to get core task of getting inflation back on target. them a job. They will have been despairing, until the last In the end, confidence is the key. I hope that the four speeches. Government will do everything that they can to back The hon. Member for Sevenoaks said that he saw the companies that are successful, and to learn from some common ground. I think that there is some, their success. inasmuch as whatever the bluster, something is clear John Mann: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? after 15 months: cutting the deficit at the speed first suggested, backed up by a lack of a coherent growth Michael Fallon: I will not, if the hon. Gentleman will policy—there was no growth policy; a document was excuse me. hatched and brought forward six months later as an I visited a small business in my constituency that I autumn statement—meant that the people watching want to tell the House about. It is called Rotosound knew that we were going to have a hard time. This and—I say this for colleagues who play guitar or other debate will be an achievement if there is any acceptance stringed instruments—it is the prime maker of guitar in the Chamber that we cannot do what we have been strings. It sells them not only throughout the United doing for the past 15 months, but must do something Kingdom, but to 60 countries around the world, and it additional—something different—because what we have is one of our great success stories. It sold guitar strings been doing is not working. There are signs of that. The that were used by Jimi Hendrix, The Who and many fact that the Chancellor went to the Bank of England other bands. It sells them to China, which could quite and asked for credit easing to be done through the easily make its own guitar strings, probably more cheaply. Bank, which was refused, and the fact that he is now People in China choose to buy our guitar strings because taking the steps to do it himself, is good— they are associated with one of our most successful industries—popular music—and because they are British. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Will the We need to distil the essence of successful exporters hon. Gentleman please make his comments through the such as that company. The Government need to find the Chair? secret of those companies and do everything possible to back more of them if we are to deliver the jobs that our Mr Mudie: Shall I start again, Mr Deputy Speaker? young people need. You have put me off. Can you remind me where I was? It is clear from the debate so far, and certainly from The Chancellor was turned by the Governor, but he the Chancellor’s speech, that only this Government can was treated very well by the House because he had spent help to deliver the growth that the economy needs by half an hour saying that he would not spend money. He laying the proper foundations for our fiscal consolidation, now has the job for the next two months, until the so that we get the modern economy that we need autumn statement, of making a reality of credit easing, growing successfully again. which means that because the Governor will not do it from the Bank of England, it will have to be done by the 3.51 pm Government through public expenditure. And that, from a man who was saying that there is too much public Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): I am delighted expenditure and the only way is to cut, is a major to see the Chancellor still in his place. Oh, he is just achievement and a major philosophical breakthrough. going. I have that effect on him. I think he has heard enough in the previous four speeches, three of which There are clear signs that the Chancellor realises that were by members of the Treasury Committee—its best he boxed himself in. It was described three or four members; the rest are coming now. The last four speeches months ago on a radio programme as flexibility—“I were very thoughtful, in contrast with what happened have flexibility in my programmes”. That would give when the two Front Benchers had a go at one another. him the ability to move off plan A, but it is now clear The public must see that as the Chamber at its worst; it that he is moving off with a vengeance because he sees was described as vaudeville. That is not the fault of the the danger. When we in the House speak about growth, individuals concerned; it is the way this place is. Following that means a lot to politicians, but the ordinary person on from the speeches of the Front Benchers were speeches does not realise that it means their job, the security of from the former Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the their home and their income. If the Chancellor is moving Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling); the on that, it is very good. Chairman of the Select Committee; the hon. Member I shall put three suggestions on the table for the for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), who represents the Chancellor. First, he could reconsider the disastrous seat in which I was born; and my good friend from the decision to abolish regional development agencies and 395 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 396 the disgraceful decision to give the local enterprise and hospitals that the previous Government built but partnerships that he set up in their place less money, no never paid for. It does not take account of the liabilities staff, no powers, no authority and no influence. They for organisations such as Railtrack and Metronet, and have pulled together in every area in the country schemes of course it takes no account of public sector pensions. that have been presented to Lord Heseltine to filter out The reality is that we must now deal with a debt of at and put forward for funding. As only one scheme has least £1 trillion and the deficit of £160 billion that we come from each area, there is a whole list of schemes inherited. sitting on the table that are good schemes that could be Opposition Members like to blame it all on the put into operation. banks. “It was all the fault of the wicked bankers”, they Secondly, when we speak about infrastructure, we say. I have done a little checking with the House of invariably go to roads. The key, however, is housing Commons Library, and as far as I can ascertain the because it triggers so many additional jobs and so much banks received £100 billion. That money was given out additional expenditure. There is one thing the Chancellor not simply in cash, but in shares and the rest of it, so a could do without spending any money. I know there is a lot of it might come back to us. If we take the best-case balance. An average two-bedroom house costs £160,000. scenario for the national debt, which is £1 trillion, To get a mortgage requires a deposit of £32,000. Need rather than the £2 trillion suggested by many economists, we look any further to understand why youngsters are and the worst-case scenario for the £100 billion that was not buying houses? I know we have to protect people given to the banks, which is that nothing will come from being irresponsible, but such a value to loan ratio back, even then that money accounts for only 10% of has knocked house purchase off the table. As we are not the national debt. What about the other £900 billion? building social housing, it is a real block. Perhaps the When will the Opposition start accounting for that? Chancellor could speak to the Financial Services Authority One trillion pounds is a lot of money. I was thinking and to the banks and say, “Ease off and look at each about it earlier and trying to put it in perspective. If we case on its merits.” were to create a graph and used 1 cm to show £1 million, Finally, during the 1980s recession we had some very it would have to stretch all the way from here to Highgate good community programmes—youth training schemes cemetery to show the scale of the wanton spending for and so on. They were sometimes derided but they kept which Opposition Members are responsible—I do not youngsters at work and gave them some self-belief and know whether it is relevant, but that is the burial place purpose. Youngsters got up and turned up on time. The of Karl Marx. schemes prepared them for work and kept them intact as individuals. In Leeds we had 2,500 places and we did Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) enormous work across the city with unemployed people (Lab): I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman knows who, to this day, pay tribute to the fact that such what the public sector debt was in 1997 and in 2007 schemes kept them going when they would have before the recession. disintegrated as personalities if they had not had that discipline and chance. I should like the Chancellor to David T. C. Davies: Yes, in 1997— think about those. Debbie Abrahams: Does he know what it was as a percentage of GDP? 3.59 pm David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I confess that David T. C. Davies: Has the hon. Lady finished now, as I listened to the shadow Chancellor this afternoon, I and may I continue? I am always fascinated by the fact almost felt a growing sense of admiration for the sheer that comparisons are made between levels of debt as a effrontery of the man. This man who came to deliver a percentage of GDP. I will certainly give way again if lesson to the Chancellor was personally responsible for someone can explain why we compare national debt much of the economic mess that the country now finds with GDP. Why do we not do what any company would itself in. He, of course, is no longer in his place, but I do and compare it with revenue? If we look at a wonder whether I might give a quick economic history comparison with 2010, when this Government took lesson to those Members on the Opposition Front over and when the national debt was £1 trillion, we will Bench who have hung around to listen to the debate. see that the revenue coming in was £520 billion. The country had a national debt that was almost twice the In 1997 this country had a national debt of £350 billion revenue it was taking. Anyone who has run a company— and was basically spending what it earned. By May most Opposition Members have not, but I have—will 2008, well before the collapse of Lehman Brothers and know that any company that found itself in such a the banking problems, the national debt had already situation would be declared bankrupt immediately. increased to £629 billion and the Government, during the boom times, had run a deficit of around £30 billion Kwasi Kwarteng: Will my hon. Friend remind the a year. I am yet to hear any Opposition Member explain House why the previous Labour Government ran a why, when the country was booming, they spent £30 billion deficit for nine consecutive years from 2001 to 2010, a year more than the country was taking in taxes. Once despite having a boom? we hit the banking problems, which the previous Government successfully blamed all the economic problems David T. C. Davies: My hon. Friend asks a very good on, the debt skyrocketed to £1 trillion. question. They managed to come up with an excuse Of course, even that is not the full story, because after 2008, following the collapse of the banks, but as I many sensible economists claim that the national debt is said earlier, I am yet to hear an answer on why they ran at least twice as large, as the figures used do not take a deficit from 2001 to 2008. Perhaps we will get one into account the PFI contracts used for all the schools later. 397 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 398

[David T. C. Davies] John Mann rose—

What I did hear from the shadow Chancellor was David T. C. Davies: I will not give way again, because some rather mealy-mouthed insults directed towards I have done so twice and I do not want to cut myself off. my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, I congratulate the Chancellor and all his colleagues in who had a proper job outside politics and Government, the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties and as I did, which the shadow Chancellor seems to think is urge them to stay the course, to ensure that we spend worth mocking him for. My right hon. Friend was not what we earn, and not to listen to Labour Members or the man who was responsible for the £1 trillion-worth take any notice of people such as the former Prime of debt, for selling gold at a fraction of the price, or for Minister. Even he did not seem to know the difference running up deficits in boom years. [Interruption.] I will between debt and deficit, because anyone who looks at not say anything about the euro at the moment, but the YouTube video of him abusing Mrs Duffy and there are many Labour Members who were urging us to calling her a bigot will notice that halfway through he the join the euro during those times and are now trying said, “We will cut the debt in half.” Did he not know the to give us a lesson in economics. I notice that they have difference between debt and deficit, or was he planning all now gone very quiet. much deeper cuts than the coalition Government? Perhaps The reality is that Labour Members never, ever learn someone will answer that question. their lesson. For them, it is not a case of plan A or All Back Benchers on this side of the House are plan B; there is only one plan: “Let’s tax people as supportive of the Government because we recognise, as highly as we can, and when we’ve finished squeezing we always have, that it is not possible to carry on every penny out of them, we’ll borrow more money.” spending money that one does not have because that They do not remember the words of one Labour Chancellor merely creates a bigger problem further down the line of the Exchequer during a Labour conference: “Comrades, for our children. That is why I urge my colleagues to you may think that we can tax and spend our way out of stay the course. a recession, but I tell you that is no longer an option.” They still have not learned the lesson. 4.8 pm Clement Attlee failed in the 1940s when he tried to Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ build his welfare state on the back of American war Co-op): As ever, it gives me great pleasure to follow the loans. There was Harold Wilson in the 1960s telling the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), who public that the pound in their pocket was worth the talks about learning lessons. Following the erudite economic same when he was rapidly devaluing it. Then there was contributions that we have heard from many hon. Members, Jim “Crisis, what crisis?” Callaghan, who, just like his I am going to talk about the real lessons of human life successors, brought the country to the brink of utter in my constituency. bankruptcy, and did not even seem to think that he had First, let me give some numbers. Over the past year, done anything wrong. It was 18 years before they got claims for jobseeker’s allowance in London increased by another chance, and they have done exactly the same 10%, compared with the UK as a whole at 8%. Those thing again: tax and spend, borrow and spend, just keep figures are pretty bad, and today’s unemployment statistics on doing it and do not worry about it. underline the general trend. In my constituency, the I am glad that we have a Government who are not figure increased by 18%. If one looks more closely, it going to go for the easy option, which would be to gets worse. Claimants under the age of 24 increased by borrow a whole load more money now in the hope of 18.1% in the past year, and for someone who is over winning an election, which is exactly what Labour 50 the outlook is bleak. The increase in the number of Members were doing for a couple of years. We are claimants in that group was 29.2%. That is right—nearly going to take some tough decisions, and that means a third more over-50s are seeking work than a year ago. getting our books in order. Unlike the shadow Chancellor, I will focus on people and their lives, and on the I know, having run a small family haulage business, that families who are affected by this Government’s policies. one cannot carry on spending more money than one About one in three residents in the borough of Hackney, gets indefinitely. I welcome the fact that the Chancellor which I represent with my hon. Friend the Member for is going to encourage real growth by making it easier for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), are businesses to take people on and not have to worry under the age of 24. Therefore, as well as the percentage about employment tribunals, which anyone who has increases, a significant number of young people in both run a small business does worry about all the time constituencies are affected by the Government’s reckless because of the number of spurious claims. programme. John Mann: Rubbish! Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): David T.C. Davies: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman Will the hon. Lady explain how abandoning our deficit has ever had any experience of running a business or reduction plans, losing our triple A credit rating, and dealing with spurious employment tribunals—I very forcing up interest rates to UK plc, homeowners and much doubt it. business will lower unemployment? I am also glad that the Chancellor has recognised that reducing our carbon emissions at a time when the Meg Hillier: That question demonstrates the detachment economy is facing problems is not necessarily the wisest of this Government and their Back Benchers from the thing to do, particularly when the Government are now reality of human lives. If the hon. Gentleman will let having to accept that our winters are getting colder, that me develop my argument, I will point out that there are more people are dying through cold than through heat, real challenges for people. There is an alternative plan, and that the link between carbon dioxide and global which my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor and warming is not quite as clear-cut as many people say. his colleagues have laid out, and I back it. 399 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 400

I have met young people who have already been made Kwasi Kwarteng: Will the hon. Lady give way? redundant in their early 20s and others who have done Meg Hillier: I am afraid that I will not. everything that the Government have asked of them, such as working hard at school. Our borough has seen That woman told me that she uses the prepay meter huge improvements in schools and education, and its key because of her fear of a large quarterly bill at the results are improving. Our young people are increasingly end of the autumn, even though she knows that it costs going to university, which was pie in the sky for many more. She is doing what the Government tell her to do. young people when I was first selected for my seat. And She is a single parent with four children who is working still, there are no jobs. We risk having a lost generation, to support her family, but she lives in fear of the bills although not like the lost generation that the hon. every day. There is the man who came to my surgery on Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) spoke about, Monday. He has a job offer, but he faces the choice because we made great strides in government, although between a job and a home because of the Government’s there is still more to do on skills. We risk a lost generation short-sighted approach to housing benefit. of young people who have achieved a lot and still Where are the private sector jobs? In my constituency cannot get a job. and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington, most small businesses Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) employ fewer than six people and they are struggling. I (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the most have been up and down my high street many times since alarming consequences of the Government’s economic the events of 8 August, but it is not just those events policies for those of us in inner-city communities is how that have caused problems. Businesses are struggling hard the cuts hit the public sector and women workers with footfall and because people do not have disposable in the public sector? Particularly in inner-city London, income to spend. They are worried about what will be disproportionate numbers of public sector workers are down the road. black and minority ethnic, and there are no private The Federation of Small Businesses has been very sector jobs for them to go into. Those people are often critical of the Government’s approach, as my right hon. the head of their household and the only earner in their Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) household. They are the sacrifices of this misconceived indicated. Businesses on the high street need quantitative economic policy. easing, including those that are being incubated by entrepreneurs in my constituency. The Prime Minister is Meg Hillier: I could not put it better than my hon. very fond of talking about creating a silicon valley when Friend and I will not try. She is absolutely right. it suits him, but those high-street businesses are exactly Young people who have never worked are now the sort that could be creating jobs for young and older desperately seeking even unpaid work experience. What people in my constituency. However, they risk being have this Government done in response? They have cut throttled at birth, or if they do survive—I wish them the future jobs fund so that there is no more chance of well and hope they do—they risk not growing at the employment and no more try-before-you-buy for employers. rate that they could with the right support from They have cut education maintenance allowance and Government. increased student tuition fees. Just as young people in Richard Fuller: Will the hon. Lady give way? Hackney are emerging from school, ready and qualified for university, they are losing the help that they had. Meg Hillier: I am afraid I will not. The cuts programme is so deep and so fast that it Families are being squeezed. Prices are going up, with gives no hope. It does exactly what my hon. Friend the food prices having increased by 6.1% in the past year. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington For those who drive, petrol has gone up. Energy prices said: it cuts the jobs that were providing for so many have gone up, VAT is at 20% and we are seeing a huge households in my constituency and keeping our local hike in fare prices thanks to the Tory Mayor of London. economy going. If people have a job, they are worried that they will not have it in future, and they are worried because they will Although the Chancellor is not in his seat, let me tell not be getting pay rises. Families in my constituency him about real people. Last week, I met a 16-year-old have nowhere to go to get the extra money: not for them who said to me, “I really want a Saturday job because I the easy credit that is available to many or the bank want to grow from a boy into a man and this will help overdraft that is available at the end of a phone call; not me.” He also told me that he wants and needs to for them the rich family member who can help them out contribute to his household’s increasingly squeezed income. or a cushion that they have saved over years of work, He is losing the education maintenance allowance that because they have been living a difficult existence as it is he would have been entitled to and he is very worried. and are now squeezing until the pips squeak. They There is the sixth-former who used her education cannot squeeze any more out of their household budgets. maintenance allowance to top up the family’s electricity This Government are cutting too far, too fast, and it key on a Thursday so that she could keep the lights and is not working for families, for young people or for heating on until the end of the week for the basics of businesses. It is not working at all, nor, sadly, are far too study and existence. There is the teenager who attended many of my constituents. school on alternate days because he and his brother had to share a pair of school trousers. Thanks to EMA, he is Several hon. Members rose— now at university, where he has escaped from his chaotic Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. This family background and is ready to succeed. I hope that debate is very popular and I want to accommodate as there will be a job for him when he leaves. many Members as I possibly can, so the time limit is There is the woman who is working to bring up her being reduced to six minutes, with the usual injury time children and is using an expensive prepay meter key. for two interventions. 401 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 402

4.16 pm Jake Berry: I do know. However, I can guarantee my constituents one thing, and one thing only: unemployment Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): I am has not gone up by as much as it would have done if we delighted to see that the reshuffle of the shadow Cabinet had had Labour’s Ponzi scheme. has had a real effect on its sense of humour. Government Members are of course used to the fake outrage all the Several hon. Members rose— time, but the terms of the motion suggest that the Opposition seem to have discovered irony. Jake Berry: I am sorry, but I will not give way again I will not support the motion, because it demonstrates because I am running out of time and I have many the Opposition’s fundamental failure to have any credible points to make. economic policy whatever. This five-point plan is a nationalised Ponzi scheme on steroids. Even in itself it Let us look at the facts. Back in May 2010, when we would add £3.1 billion to our deficit. The Opposition came to power, we had 0.1% less debt than Greece as a probably do not understand what a Ponzi scheme is, but proportion of GDP. Labour Members can criticise us they should look at their own manifesto. People in my and say that making cuts damages growth, but let us constituency do not believe that the way out of debt is look at their alternative. Their alternative—too little, to take on more debt. They do not believe that the way too late—would mean, as in Greece, a 15% pay cut for to reduce their personal liability is to spend more money. every doctor, nurse and policeman, and every public sector worker; and a cut of up to 40% in pensions. That is what too little, too late means. Alison McGovern: The hon. Gentleman is incorrect, because if there were investment it would not be a fake Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): Ponzi scheme—the assets would be real, unlike in an Will the hon. Gentleman give way? actual Ponzi scheme. Jake Berry: I am sorry, but I will not give way. I want Jake Berry: I never said it was a fake Ponzi scheme, I to make progress. said it was a real Ponzi scheme. That is the basis of the Opposition’s entire policy. The Labour party opposes the Government’s public spending cuts, but its alternative—the too little, too late The markets believe in our plan and want us to stick alternative—would mean that our economy, like Greece’s, to plan A: actually, so does every hard-working family would shrink by 5% this year, and that mortgage rates in my constituency. They are struggling with personal would rocket. One of the things that Government Members loans and do not want interest rates to go up. Like so are most proud of is our desire and aspiration to many of us, they are struggling with mortgages and increase the tax threshold to take many of the lowest cannot afford that to happen. The Prime Minister has paid in our society out of tax altogether. Had we offered real leadership throughout this, and the Chancellor followed the too little, too late approach, as Greece did, of the Exchequer has been honest. That is in stark we would have had to cut our tax-free allowance by 50%. contrast to the Labour party’s constant line of “too far, The Chancellor has been frank about the choppy too fast”. waters ahead, yet businesses in my constituency of What is the Opposition’s alternative? This five-point Rossendale and Darwen still strive to succeed. Businesses plan is simply too little, too late. They believe, “Why such as J&J Ormerod, the largest employer in my repay borrowing today when we can have business as constituency, B&E Boys, Crown Paints and WEC usual and bankrupt Britain tomorrow?” engineering, are doing their best to manufacture proper products and to rebalance the UK economy, despite Andrew Bridgen: Does my hon. Friend agree that, like tough times. Those businesses know about the Labour a compulsive gambler believes that one more big bet party’s economic illiteracy. That is why, before the general will solve all his problems, the shadow Chancellor and election, some of them signed a letter opposing Labour’s the Labour party believe that one more credit splurge jobs tax. Businesses in my constituency will not forget will get us out of a debt crisis? that the previous Government were the enemy of enterprise and industry, and that Labour is the party of the jobs Jake Berry: I do, and for all addicts the hardest thing tax. to do is admit that they have a problem. When this Government came to power in May 2010, we admitted Rachel Reeves: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? that we had a problem with debt. Even if we fall off the wagon temporarily, we know we have that problem and Jake Berry: Sorry, I will not. so we get straight back on it. The Labour party has not How ironic it is that the Opposition motion calls for a even admitted it—it thinks it gave us a golden economic cut in national insurance. That is too little, too late, and inheritance. business in my constituency knows that the Labour party is not the solution but, in fact, the problem. Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Can the hon. Gentleman tell us by how much unemployment Rachel Reeves: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? has risen in Rossendale and Darwen in the past 12 months? Jake Berry: Sorry, but I will not. Jake Berry: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will Looking at today’s job figures, including the increase provide me with the figures— in unemployment in my constituency—

Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): Do you not know? Rachel Reeves: The increase was 29.2%. 403 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 404

Jake Berry: The Opposition Front Bencher says from Richard Fuller: The hon. Gentleman says “the a sedentary position that the increase is 29.2%. I have Government this” and “the Government that”, but if real sympathy for those experiencing the increase in we are talking about jobs, he ought to be talking, as I unemployment. People are facing an unbelievably tough am sure that he is, to small business owners in his time. These are uncertain times for all of us. However, if constituency. In those conversations, how many of them we are to have a successful economy in Rossendale and have said that they would put at risk low interest rates in Darwen, and if we are to get people back into work, we this country to pursue some of the policies in the must keep low borrowing rates and support the new five-point plan, and how many said that they would enterprise zone in Lancashire, which will create jobs. welcome the job tax that the previous Government said Our manufacturing businesses are not thriving, but they that they would impose on businesses up and down the are still growing. Companies such as Linemark in my country? constituency, which has just won the Queen’s award for enterprise, are growing through innovation. Ian Mearns: Many of the businesses that I speak to in areas such as the Team Valley trading estate, which The key to our success in east Lancashire in business, employs about 20,000 people in the private sector, complain jobs and families is low interest rates, so we must stick about the pace and depth of the Government cuts. They to plan A. We must enable jobs and growth in Rossendale are impacting on their order books because many of and Darwen. them provide for the public sector. Unemployment in the region now stands at 142,000, which means that 4.25 pm 11.3% of the working population in the north-east is now unemployed. The only conclusion that we can Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): In March, the draw from the rationale of the parties in government is Government launched their much-heralded plan for that, for them, unemployment in the north-east is a growth, and in a document signed off by the Business price worth paying. Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the foreword read: David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): The hon. “This Plan for Growth is an urgent call for action. Britain has Gentleman is making some powerful points about the lost ground in the world’s economy, and needs to catch up. If we north-east and the gap in gross value added per head do not act now, jobs will be lost, our country will become poorer between it and London and the south-east. However, and we will find it difficult to afford the public services we all does he accept that over the past two decades that gap want. If we do not wake up to the world around us, our standard of living will fall, not rise.” reached its widest in the last year of the previous Government? Those are fine words, but the Government’s actions since have only inflicted more damage. Since May last Ian Mearns: I was critical, in many respects, of the year, they have systematically dismantled and reduced previous Government’s regional development policy, the UK economy’s capacity. Ideologically driven by a and I admit that I never understood the rationale for quest to reduce the public sector, they have relentlessly spending regional development money in the south-east pressed one single policy button—deficit reduction. when it would have been better spent in areas such as In the northern region and my constituency, the the north-east to rebalance the British economy. Having Government’s policy is looking very much like a scorched- said that, however, I am not going to criticise my earth strategy. colleagues in the south-east—they have voters as well. While imposing draconian and disproportionate spending The regional growth fund, which stands at only cuts, which this year alone have reduced grants to the £1.4 billion over three years, is being used to plug the 12 local authorities in the north-east of England by an gap left by the RDAs, which helped significantly in average of £84 per head of population—compared with areas such as the north-east and collectively had a only £5 per head of population in the 12 least-deprived budget of £1.4 billion every year. In areas such as the local authorities in the south of England—the Government north-east of England, the RDAs were vital. So much have reduced resources for regional development in our for the words of the Deputy Prime Minister last June, region by at least two thirds. Before the election, the when he said that the regional growth fund would Prime Minister identified the northern region, along “make a real difference to companies during difficult times.” with Northern Ireland, as an area that would require We have yet to see a single penny of the regional growth special support to rebalance its economy—we all know fund being spent in any company in the north-east of what that “special support” really resembles. From my England. Oh, what it must be like to have responsibility perspective, it looks like the support given to a hanged for Government policy without having any real influence man—a rope. over it! The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government said that he did not want to Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I must correct “strangle business with red tape,” my hon. Friend. The Prime Minister said—on “Newsnight”, I think—that the north-east was over-dependent on the but wanted “urgent action,” which was needed to public sector and would be hit the hardest. “rebuild and rebalance local economies…across the country.” What we are actually seeing in response is the infliction Ian Mearns: I was being kind to the Prime Minister, of savage cuts that are sucking money, spending power but he did actually use the words “rebalance the economy”. and potential demand out of the economies of regions One North East, the regional development agency set such as the north-east. up by the previous Government, is being abolished and The north-east is part of England and part of the replaced by as-yet-unfunded and as-yet-totally-impotent United Kingdom, but we are being treated local enterprise partnerships in the north, including in disproportionately badly by this Government’s economic Teesside. policies. If they ever get round to paying out money 405 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 406

[Ian Mearns] job created between 1998 and 2008 in the west midlands. We saw a decline of more than 60,000 private sector from the regional growth fund, we will frankly struggle jobs in the region. to notice the impact because of the unemployment that already exists in the north-east after the deficit reduction Chris Leslie: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us whether strategy. The regional growth fund is taking on the unemployment has risen or fallen in his constituency appearance of a pathetic fig leaf that cannot hide the since he was elected? stark truth that the Government do not have a real growth strategy for Britain or a region such as the Gavin Williamson: The hon. Gentleman makes an north-east of England. As we know, the local enterprise interesting point. Between September 2010 and September partnerships have no start-up funding, no core funding, 2011, 74 additional people became unemployed in my no guaranteed access to the regional growth fund and constituency.That is a tragic situation, but this Government no new legal powers. The case against the Government’s are doing something about it. Unlike the previous policy in the north has been eloquently set out by the Government, who did little or nothing for my constituency, Smith Institute of all people—hardly an organisation this Government are delivering. I will explain how. We renowned for its left-leaning attitudes towards public are out there creating and delivering jobs, and making policy—in its report “Rebalancing the economy: prospects things happen in South Staffordshire. Already, thanks for the North”. to the actions of this Government, we have been able to The Government’s plan is simply not working, but is save 400 jobs there by ensuring that the investment was inflicting enormous damage on the economic capacity delivered for Moog, an important employer in my of the north. It is stifling and strangling our economy, constituency, which is relocating to a new factory on the not rebalancing it. Oblivious to the consequences of i54 business park. their actions, the Government press on blindly with What is more, this Government are committed to plan A: deficit reduction. Tens of thousands of jobs delivering more jobs, not only in my constituency but destroyed, 1 million young people unemployed, the right across the west midlands. Through the Government’s poorest and most vulnerable in our communities paying actions, we have secured an enormous investment of the most for the cuts—it is quite clear that we are not all £350 million from Jaguar Land Rover to build a new in this together. Over the past 17 months the Government engine plant on the i54, which has been designated an have been absolutely clear that deficit reduction has enterprise zone. been their priority above all other considerations. Everything that has been said by the Chancellor and his supporters in the Chamber this afternoon adds to the one simple Emma Reynolds: I live about 300 metres from the i54 sentence: “It’s a price worth paying.” To those in the site. Will the hon. Gentleman admit that, were it not for coalition Government, Tory and Lib Dem alike, I ask the Labour Government and the regional development this. Unemployment of 2.5 million, with 1 million agency, which decontaminated the site, invested in it unemployed people under 25—is it a price worth paying? and made it a strategic site, we would never have had I do not think so. that investment in the first place? 4.32 pm Gavin Williamson: I thank the hon. Lady for making Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): It is a that point, but let me explain something. Having run a pleasure to be able to speak in this debate, but sometimes manufacturing business for many years before entering I listen to Opposition Members and just cannot understand the House, I quickly discovered that when considering where they have been for the last 10 or 12 years. If my relocating a factory to a new site, two core ingredients constituents have been listening to some of the Opposition are needed. They are electricity and gas, but no funding speeches, they will be equally shocked. They will remember had been provided by Advantage West Midlands to a Chancellor who once used to speak of prudence and install either on that site. If that is far-sighted policy financial stability creating an economy where the books from a regional development agency, I do not think it is were balanced. Well, prudence was jettisoned a long particularly great. time ago and it is certainly not a friend of the new The investment from Jaguar Land Rover will create shadow Chancellor. Until Opposition Members understand 750 jobs in my constituency and the wider area, as well that they have to have a sensible, balanced economic as many thousands more. This country is now investing approach, they will never have credibility with the people in manufacturing again. It is no longer a country with a of South Staffordshire or, I am sure, the people of this declining manufacturing base, in which manufacturing country. declined from 21% to 12% of our gross domestic product. We often hear Opposition Members talk of a lost We are now ensuring that that percentage will grow, decade of low growth, low employment and low private because that is what we need. I believe that this Government sector employment. Well, we had a lost decade—a lost will deliver that. 13 years—in the west midlands between 1997 and 2010. This is not just about encouraging manufacturing; it You probably often sit there, Mr Deputy Speaker, wondering is about encouraging the service sector and all the other how many private sector jobs were created in the west sectors. We are supporting small businesses as well as midlands between 1998 and 2008. You were probably big ones. We have already seen a massive increase in the thinking it was perhaps 250,000—in those halcyon days, research and development tax credits available to small when house prices were booming and the economy was businesses. I recently visited Squire, the makers of some growing—but I am afraid to say that you would be of the finest padlocks in the country. I suggest that wrong if you thought that. If you thought that the Members purchase one for their garden shed. The R figure was 100,000, I am afraid that you would also be and D tax credits introduced at the last Budget for small wrong. In fact, there was not a single net private sector and medium-sized enterprises are encouraging businesses 407 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 408 such as Squire to invest in research and development to accept that demand in the economy needs to be and in innovation to provide them with a secure, prosperous stimulated. I suppose his attitude and approach to and healthy future. quantitative easing is an indication that he sees demand Those are the initiatives that South Staffordshire stimulated by monetary policy but equally that good needs, and that the whole country needs. The Government fiscal policies and ideas may also be considered as a have a difficult legacy to deal with, thanks to Labour, means of trying to stimulate growth. I am not so sure, but they are helping Jaguar Land Rover, Moog and all when I look at what is happening to bank lending in those other businesses through the creation of enterprise Northern Ireland, that quantitative easing is having an zones and the lowering of corporation tax. They are impact. The British Bankers Association has published supporting those businesses at every level, and that is its quarterly figures. From the last quarter of last year what will deliver growth for this country. to the second quarter of this year, bank lending to small businesses fell by 30% in Northern Ireland. With the Chancellor telling us that there is sufficient liquidity in 4.40 pm the banking system, one has to ask whether simply Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I will not tax making money available is going to be the answer. your brain, Mr Deputy Speaker, by getting you to guess Some fiscal measures have been suggested here today. about job creation or anything like that; I would like to It has been suggested that we need not increase spending make just a couple of points. and reduce taxes to create extra demand. Instead, we First, I sometimes approach a debate such as this could direct extra spending towards the activities that with a degree of unease. There is always a tendency create the biggest multiplier effect—for instance, spending either to pretend that there is no problem because the on housing and reductions in VAT, whether for extensions existing policy has to be defended or else to magnify the to houses or for the tourist industry. There are measures existing problems and in doing so to have an impact on that do not cost a penny, such as reducing regulation. I confidence. One thing I have found from speaking to welcome the Chancellor’s announcement that he will business people in Northern Ireland is that although we not stick to the carbon reduction targets. As one who are going through difficult circumstances, which everyone voted against the Climate Change Act 2008, I am recognises, there is no point in further impacting on pleased to observe that some reality is now entering that consumer and investment confidence by, through political debate. Why should we impose a 40% increase in energy point scoring, making the situation appear worse. We costs on our industry when that is not being done need to try to avoid that in a debate such as this. elsewhere, with the aim of reducing carbon emissions into the atmosphere and thereby somehow or other Secondly, I have looked at the statistics on Northern affecting the climate? Ireland and found that we have seen no growth in the economy over the past 24 months. We have had an There are many suggestions to be considered. I believe increase in unemployment and, of course, given our that the Chancellor has more leeway than he claims, heavy dependence on the public sector, the public spending and I hope that we shall see some movement as a result cuts of £4 billion over the next four years—40% of the of today’s debate. capital budget—are bound to have a deflating impact on the economy. 4.46 pm In listening to today’s debate, to the Chancellor’s Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am grateful for reaction and to some of the Opposition’s proposals, we the opportunity to speak in the debate. have to consider whether the rigid battle lines that have I am pleased and interested to learn that the shadow been drawn are of benefit to the economy in the long Chancellor recognises that the problem we face is an term. I accept what the Chancellor has said today—there international problem. He spoke eloquently about the is considerable risk in changing position—but any economic deepening eurozone crisis, and also about the prospects strategy is bound to carry risk with it, as it involves for Greece and Portugal, which frankly are not too trying to project and look into the future on the basis of good. I am also pleased to speak having heard the many different variables, such as how markets will react speech of the hon. Member for Hackney South and and what will be the impact of a decision. We do not Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), who gave a graphic account have perfect knowledge about those things, so sticking of the difficulties that we face from the point of view of rigidly to the current plan carries a risk. her constituents. What we have not heard from the We do not know how the markets are going to react Opposition is an admission that they were in any way to the increased borrowing that will be required as tax responsible for the difficulties that we face today. What revenues fall and spending on unemployment and other we have heard, from Members on both sides of the benefits rises. Currently, the markets seem prepared to House, is the expression of a desire for a bipartisan accept that there might well be an increase in the deficit approach and a civilised debate, and I am all for that. because of what is happening, but that the Government However, if we are to understand the challenges that we are still on plan to reduce the deficit. Where is the face today, we must understand how we got into this tipping point when the markets begin to say, “Do we mess in the first place. really have a credible plan?” Equally, if we go down the It is true that every country in the OECD and in the path of increasing spending and reducing taxation, at economically developed world faces similar challenges, what stage will the markets say, “You are deviating from but it is not true that those countries managed their the plan”? public finances as badly as we did in the years between One thing that I suppose has come out of the debate 1997 and 2010. Let us rehearse some of the facts. We so far—at least from the IMF, the OECD and even entered this period of our national life with a higher some of the credit agencies—is an acceptance that there deficit-to-GDP ratio than any other OECD country: can be some flexibility. Even the Chancellor is beginning 12%, when the German ratio was 3.3%. That was a 409 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 410

[Kwasi Kwarteng] seemed extremely arrogant for a supposedly responsible politician to say on the Floor of the House that low direct consequence of decisions made on the Treasury interest rates were a bad thing, which was essentially Bench between 1997 and 2010. As my hon. Friend the what the shadow Chancellor was arguing. [Interruption.] Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) pointed out, He was suggesting that they were a symptom of a weak the then Government ran a deficit in every year between economy, which is a bad thing. 2001 and 2010—for nine straight years. Even when the On the contrary, however, our low interest rates are a economy was booming, we ran deficits of £30 billion a signal that the markets have confidence in this Government. year in 2002, 2003 and 2004. The shadow Chancellor They have absolute belief that the current Government referred to Lord Keynes— are going to deal with the deficit that was created, almost deliberately, by the Labour Government. We in Emma Reynolds: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? the House of Commons have to understand why this deficit arose, so we can explain that to the country. It Kwasi Kwarteng: I should be happy to do so. was not just handed down to us by some Moses figure— although the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Emma Reynolds: I should prefer the hon. Gentleman Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) probably thinks of himself to speak about debt-to-GDP ratios. Does he accept that in that way. It was not handed down from on high; on the eve of the world recession we had the second rather, it was created by Governments and by the Members lowest ratio in the G7, second only to Canada’s? who then sat on the Treasury Bench, and it was created for the simple reason that they, in their arrogance, Kwasi Kwarteng: What the markets were looking at honestly believed that they had abolished boom and was the deficit. The hon. Lady may remember what bust. We all remember those statements, and it is an happened to the gilt market as her party’s Government arrogant misrepresentation of the past to suggest that were being shunted out. The price of British Government they did not think that. The last Prime Minister believed debt rose and yields fell in direct anticipation of Labour that he had solved the key economic question of our leaving power. The markets made their own decision. In time, but he was wrong, and it is as a direct consequence the last 18 months, the price of British Government of his mistake that our Government have had to introduce debt—that is, the interest rates that we pay—has fallen. the policies we are currently pursuing. It has managed to remain at the same level, precisely Many people will ask why we do not have a different because markets realise that the Chancellor and his plan. They will ask: “Why don’t you suddenly borrow team are doing the right thing in tackling the deficit. We and spend more money in the time-honoured Labour have been told repeatedly that if we were to show any fashion?” That would be a road to disaster, however. It relaxation of our deficit reduction programme the markets would create a massive lack of confidence and lack of would dump our bonds and interest rates would rise, credibility in the British Government’s programme, leading which would cause immense damage to the hon. Lady’s to the markets dumping our Government debt and our constituents as well as mine. interest rates rising. It would lead to people in our constituencies having to face higher payments every Rachel Reeves: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that month. They would be squeezed even more if we were before the last general election—between January and not as focused and committed as we are to reducing the May 2010—yields on Government bonds were falling deficit. and they have stayed at low rates since the general election? The markets did not know which party would I have tried to inject some reality into this debate. We win the election because the campaign was so close. have heard consistent denials from Labour Members, Therefore, the hon. Gentleman cannot argue that those and we have heard no admission of guilt or wrongdoing yields were falling in anticipation of an incoming and no ideas as to how we might get out of the situation Conservative Government, because nobody knew that. we are in. We have also heard no real arguments to attempt to explain why what the last Labour Government Kwasi Kwarteng: The yields were not falling in did was right. Interestingly, no Labour Member has anticipation of a Conservative Government, but they said in this debate, “We did a marvellous job; we gave were certainly falling in anticipation of the then Labour you a golden inheritance.” I would grant them more Government going out. Markets anticipate events—that credit if any of them would be bold enough to stand up is how people make money—and the markets had, in and say that, but they will not do so. That is because, as their wisdom, decided that Labour would not be re-elected. everyone in this country knows, Labour is bereft of I assure the House that if Labour had been re-elected, ideas, and it would be a disaster if we were ever to leave the markets would have dumped British debt and we our future in its hands again. would be facing a much tougher interest rate environment than we currently face. 4.54 pm I always enjoy listening to the shadow Chancellor’s Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): I speeches, as they are very entertaining, and I enjoyed recall taking part in a number of debates on the economy his speech today—I think one Member even mentioned before the general election and saying on several occasions vaudeville, which I think does vaudeville discredit. However, that there were four ways to deal with the deficit: by I was staggered by the shadow Chancellor’s assertion cutting spending; by increasing taxation; through economic that the fact that we have low interest rates is somehow growth, which would be the most important way by far; a reflection of our having a weak economy. That was an and through inflation, the method that dare not speak extraordinary claim. People in my constituency are very its name. Since then we have seen the cuts, we have seen grateful indeed that we have low interest rates, because people losing their jobs and we have seen the economy that enables them to pay their mortgage liabilities. It undermined. The thing to remember is that when someone 411 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 412 is thrown out of work we lose the output of their goods Frankly, we have seen that the bankers, financiers and and services and, on average, they cost us £12,000 in tax speculators have far too much power in this world. We not taken in and benefits paid out. We now have the have the Alice in Wonderland situation where the banks highest jobless total since the one under the previous cause a recession; the Greek economy declines; the Tory Government. Some of us—not just Tories—have banks in effect charge the Greeks exorbitant rates of memories about what went on before. interest; the banks, who created the crisis, then threaten the ability of the Greeks to pay them back, meaning Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con) rose— that the Greeks might default; and, if the Greeks default, the banks default. The banks start it off, and in the end Frank Dobson: I am not going to give way to anybody might default—and what happens? They do not rely on because it takes up time from everybody else’s speeches. the private sector or market forces. They come grovelling VAT has been increased, and that hits the worst-off to taxpayers all over Europe to ask them to bail them most. There has also been what is, in effect, a tax out of their stupidity—for that is what their policies are. increase on everybody who has to commute to work: We hear about social security scroungers, but the worst the massive fare increases that have been pushed through, social security scrounger in the world does not compare which are far above the rate of inflation. We have to the scrounging banks when they get things wrong. certainly seen inflation. One of the reasons why Governments quite like inflation is that if they borrow 5pm £1 and there is 5% inflation, they pay back 95p instead Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): It is always a pleasure of £1. That is why the Government have not taken any to follow the right hon. Member for Holborn and notice of the problems caused by the rate of inflation, St Pancras (Frank Dobson). Before I begin, may I, too, but it certainly hits people’s pensions and wages. congratulate the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel As for growth, there simply isn’t any. Growth is Reeves) on her promotion? needed both in this country and worldwide. Growth I am glad that the right hon. Member for Holborn was the theme of the London G20 summit. I know that and St Pancras mentioned Alice in Wonderland, because it is very unfashionable to praise the former Prime Minister, that is exactly where Labour is. What we have heard Gordon Brown, but the fact is that at that summit, and from the shadow Chancellor today suggests that it in the run-up to it, he did more than anybody in the believes that we can solve a debt crisis by taking on world to convince all the Governments that they had to more debt. Let us remind ourselves of the position that start investing more in the world economy. I have heard this country was in when the Government changed from someone else that it is Sarkozy’s private view that 18 months ago. We had a national debt of £940 billion, Gordon Brown’s intellect and drive— up from £350 billion when the Labour Government entered power. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. The The hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East right hon. Gentleman should refer to the former Prime (Emma Reynolds) mentioned the debt to GDP ratio, Minister by his constituency. and in terms of net debt that is at 62% today. She is right that it was lower—it gradually went up as the Frank Dobson: I am sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is previous Government came to their end—but she missed Sarkozy’s view that it was the intellect and drive of my out the fact that the markets do not just look at the right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and official national debt but take into account the unofficial Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) that virtually saved the world national debt. The good thing is that now this Government from a total disastrous slump. are in power we have started to have a transparent Since then, the new UK Government have joined the process to assess what that debt is. Before the market backsliders; they are not going for growth, either here was all based on estimates. or worldwide. They have let the bankers and speculators I can tell the hon. Lady that the £940 billion is not back in charge, blaming public spending everywhere in even half the story. In fact, it is one third of the story the world and blaming public services for what has gone because it represents one third of the total national debt wrong. This Government have been delighted to wheel of this country. The whole of Government accounts on witnesses defending their policy, but I ask people to published in July by the independent Office for Budget look at who these famous witnesses are. They are the Responsibility said that the public pension liability of bankers, the financiers and the speculators—the people the UK is £1,100 billion. PFI liabilities increased tenfold who caused the worldwide problem in the first place. over the 13 years of the previous Government to £40 billion About two days before its recent unfortunate fraud according to the OBR. The Office for National Statistics case, a very distinguished person from UBS said that we reported in the summer that the cost of financial needed austerity for all and then everything would be interventions because of the bank bail-outs is £1,300 billion okay. Unfortunately, the interviewer did not ask, “Are of additional debt. If we add all those numbers up, they you one of the people who lost £44 billion in the crash?” come to £3,380 billion—a mind-boggling number equal A couple of days later, someone from Citigroup was to 225% of GDP. advocating austerity for all. Unfortunately, the interviewer Let us look at the five-point scam suggested by the did not say, “You are from the company that lost shadow Chancellor. Four of those five policies would £60 billion in the crash. Why should we take a shred of lead to a direct increase in our debt and one, the notice of someone with your track record?” Then, my bankers’ bonus tax, would raise less than the levy that favourite, Ernst and Young, said that we need austerity the Government have already imposed. I spent 20 years for all, but never mentioned being the auditors of trading Government bonds. I advised Mexico, Brazil, Lehman Brothers. One would think that a period of Indonesia, Russia and Argentina when they were at silence—a decade of silence—would have been appropriate. default or close to default and I can tell anyone who 413 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 414

[Sajid Javid] the issue with their constituents. If the House did not accept the Government’s reasons, it could prevent our cares to know that the way out of a debt crisis is not to country from becoming more indebted. I say to the borrow more money. Investors have a choice. They do shadow Chancellor that there is no point waiting for the not have to buy anyone’s bonds. They can look at any next Labour manifesto because there may not be another country or corporation in the world and there is no way Labour Government—at least, not any time soon. It to force those bonds down their throat. That was exactly would be far better for him to take action now, put his the point we had reached before the last election and if money where his mouth is and support my Bill, which is the Government had not changed, we could very well coming to the House in just a few months. have been in the same predicament as countries such as In conclusion, there is nothing in the motion that Greece, Portugal, Ireland and Iceland. would help to generate investment and create jobs. In It is not just our triple A rating that shows that the fact, if it were implemented in any form, it would Government’s policy in dealing with the debt is the right destroy jobs. I urge the House to vote against it. one. It is not just the gilt deals, as my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) mentioned, although our 10-year gilt yield is at 2.6%. 5.7 pm Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): I am grateful Andrew Bridgen: My hon. Friend might recall that for the opportunity to follow the hon. Member for the previous Government created £200 billion-worth of Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), who has real knowledge and quantitative easing just prior to the general election. experience of the bond markets, as he has revealed However, that money was not pumped into the banking today. He obviously knows a lot about the ratings market to give liquidity—98% of it was used to buy agencies and he has a Bill before the House on debt Government debt because nobody else wanted to buy it ceilings. He is also an expert on credit default swaps. I at that stage. share his great enthusiasm for that, but he will have to explain, on the basis of what he has said and what the Sajid Javid: I quite agree with my hon. Friend. The Government’s policy is, why, if this is about deficit 10-year gilt yield today is 2.6%—one of the lowest we reduction and debt reduction, £46 billion more is going have ever had in our history—versus 3.8% when this to have to be borrowed and spent in the next few years Government came to power. That number is not just to cover their policies. important to the financial markets: it makes a big I want to mention Teesside because we have had the difference to the amount of money this Government good news in the past few days that the insurance have to spend on servicing our national debt, to the company, AXA, proposes to create 450 jobs in amount that corporations have to spend when they Middlesbrough, adding to the 300 staff it employs at borrow and then invest, and to the amount that ordinary Teesdale in Stockton. A great deal of comment—indeed, households need to spend on things such as their mortgages. criticism, I would say—has come from my hon. Friends It makes a real difference to the cost of living. the Members for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) and for Gateshead Let us consider another indicator. I always like to (Ian Mearns) about the creation of enterprise zones and look at the credit default swap spread, which is the about the regional growth fund. In all my years in the amount that the markets charge for insurance against a House of Commons, I have had to deal with the potential sovereign default. Today, Britain has, for the Government of the day and although we might have first time, the lowest CDS spread of any large European liked to keep the regional development agencies, the country. According to Bloomberg, of the 157 sovereigns reality is that we now have enterprise zones and the that trade in the CDS market, Britain has the fifth-lowest regional growth fund. We on Teesside have benefited CDS spread in the world. That, again, is a reflection of from the regional growth fund and we also have an the policies of this Government. enterprise zone that we worked very hard to achieve—and I should like to finish by picking up one positive now we will work very hard with the Government. point that the shadow Chancellor made to his party There is also the good news that 1,000 staff are being conference, which was the only thing I heard with which taken on at the former Teesside Cast Products plant, I agreed. He said with 100 already beginning the induction programme. “we will set out for our manifesto tough fiscal rules that the next The Prime Minister, in Question Time today, ventured Labour government will have to stick to”. to say, in his feisty exchange with the Leader of the I am glad that he has recognised the need for tough Opposition, that 300,000 new apprenticeships had been fiscal rules that are independently monitored by the created in our country.I visited Carillion in my constituency Office for Budget Responsibility, as that is exactly what last week to see the sterling work that it does in training I suggested in a private Member’s Bill in July, the apprentices in the real-life work of bricklaying, concrete National Debt Cap Bill, which will have its Second mixing, pneumatic drilling, and other such skilled tasks. Reading on 20 January 2012. That is the kind of work that we see being done across My proposal is that we should have an independent, the land on rainy and windy days—precisely the conditions tough cap on the net outstanding national debt as a under which those young men were working. Those proportion of GDP, monitored by the OBR. That would young apprentices are a credit to themselves and to not be a magic bullet for dealing with potential future their future. I welcome the Prime Minister’s comments debt problems, but it would force the House to have a on the apprenticeship scheme. national conversation every time any Government wanted If we take an overall look at what the Government to increase debt beyond a certain point. If they had a are doing, we find the law of unforeseen consequences. good reason for doing that, the House could support There is a lack of compatibility in their objectives. them and Members might have an opportunity to discuss Unemployment rises, so benefits have to rise. Benefits 415 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 416 have gone up by £12 billion. We have heard a lot about my hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire the Welfare Reform Bill; the Prime Minister referred at (Gavin Williamson). The Jaguar Land Rover investment Question Time to universal credit, and the Chancellor that he mentioned was bid for by Wales, too. It is a great referred to the Bill today; he said that our amendments shame that, as Tim Williams from the Welsh Automotive to it would add to the deficit. Of course, amendments Forum stated, one reason why Wales lost out on that can be reasoned, substantive or probing. Until we see investment was the foot-dragging of the Labour Welsh them when they come before the House and know how Assembly Government, who refused to implement the we will vote, they have no great significance. enterprise zone process in Wales because it was a We see in our country, and we saw in Greece, that a Westminster Government proposal. too-rapid deficit reduction will lead to reduced growth. The comments of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough The classic example of Greece, to which my right hon. (Sir Stuart Bell) were much more positive and balanced Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) than those of the right hon. Member for Holborn and referred, shows that if deficit reduction is too steep, St Pancras (Frank Dobson), who decided to attack the there will be zero growth. That is the situation in our credibility of bankers. He might be right, but when one country: we have been reducing far too quickly. We talk is making a point in the House about the credibility of as though my right hon. Friend never had a deficit individuals, one should ask about the credibility of the reduction programme. We had one: we would have shadow Chancellor, who advised the former Prime Minister reduced the deficit by half over four years—a policy to sell our gold reserves at a very low price. If we want that even Mervyn King supported before the Government to talk about credibility, we should remember the actions changed; then he changed to a different policy. of Members on our own side as well. We were compared with Greece, which I always find This debate is about jobs and growth. I represent a very offensive to the Greeks, never mind to ourselves. constituency in north Wales where we have a significant The fifth largest economy in the world was being compared small business community. That means that we have a with a nation state of 12 million people in the lower dependency on public sector jobs in the Aberconwy Mediterranean—a state that cheated on its accounts constituency than in most of north Wales and most of with the European Union. Not only was that comparison Wales. That is not to say that the public sector is not offensive, but it distorted our country’s entire policy on important. I regret every single job lost in the public deficit reduction. sector, but we have to acknowledge the fact that we must live within our means. The small business community Kwasi Kwarteng: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? in my part of north Wales has broadly welcomed the actions of the coalition Government. It has seen a Sir Stuart Bell: I am not giving way; it is too late in credible approach to reducing debt, dealing with the the day. The unforeseen consequence of a too-rapid financial crisis that we are facing, and creating a stable reduction in the deficit and no growth is that confidence economic environment that will allow it to invest and has gone from our system. The hon. Member for Sevenoaks create real employment opportunities for the people I (Michael Fallon) referred to that. We have lost confidence. represent. We say that we have the confidence of the markets, and However, in the context of the debate it is important of course we do; why would we not? We do not have the to point out that there are issues that cause concern for confidence of the people—of those trying to find jobs, small businesses. When I mention small businesses, I am of the young who have lost their jobs, and of other talking about what most Members would describe as unemployed people. We do not have the confidence of micro-businesses. In the 1980s, when we saw Wales the ordinary person in the street, who looks at the recover so dramatically from the loss of the heavy Government and sees the failure of their policies, so I industries, that recovery was based on the fact that would be cautious if I were a Government Member. Wales created more new businesses than any other part I come back to a statement made by my right hon. of the United Kingdom. I am certain that there are Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West, and I businesses in Wales that are willing to take that challenge invite the House to remember it. There will be a change forward, but there are issues that we need to deal with. in policy. It will not be plan B or plan C. It will come in Those issues might not look very important to people the autumn statement or the next Budget. The policy dealing with swaps in the market in London and so needs to change if we are to get growth. There is no forth. For example, one of the issues that small businesses future in a steep deficit reduction that will never lead to in the tourism sector in my constituency resent is the growth—not now, and not in the future. VAT threshold. Most people would say, “What’s he Several hon. Members rose— going on about?”, but the VAT threshold is a barrier to growth. Someone setting up a small business in the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. To tourism sector reaches a turnover level of £73,000 and assist in enabling a greater number of Members to take faces a cliff edge—the fact that if they go on to turn part in the debate, the time limit is reduced to five over more than £73,000 a year, they are penalised by the minutes. system. Anyone who visited Llandudno this week would see cafes which have closed for the winter, bed and 5.14 pm breakfast businesses— Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I hope that the five- Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con): My hon. Friend is minute time limit was not brought in because I was the making a powerful point about VAT and tourism. Does next speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the considered he accept that it is wrong that our tourist businesses, comments of the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Sir particularly those offering accommodation, are handicapped Stuart Bell). In particular, I welcome his comments because VAT rates are higher in this country than in about enterprise zones, which were also mentioned by many of our continental competitors? 417 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 418

Guto Bebb: I am grateful for that intervention. It is The fatuous comparison with Greece really makes me my next point. angry, because Greece’s debt-to-GDP ratio has been Let me finish on the subject of the threshold. When double ours for quite some time and over 100% since small businesses hit a turnover of £70,000, they are the early ’90s. The truth is that the Government’s economic about to reach the point where they need to start policy is politically motivated. Let us face it: the Chancellor employing staff. A system that penalises growth is something is their chief political strategist and his calculation last that we need to re-examine. I know that we have to do year was to get the pain out of the way early in this so in the context of the current financial situation, but Parliament so that he could offer some sweeteners towards small businesses in my constituency would be delighted the end, when the economy will hopefully be growing if we could do something about the VAT threshold. again, so that they can try to win a majority and will not On the tourism sector, I am told I have more hotel have to tolerate the Lib Dems in government. Their beds in my constituency than the rest of Wales put plan is hurting, but it is not working. together, so I am occasionally accused of pleading on The Government’s political motivation and their behalf of the tourism sector when I say that it is a real ideological commitment to a much smaller state is concern that VAT rates on hotel bedrooms, for example, blinding them to the reality that their policies are actually are being reduced to 7% or 6% in other parts of Europe, making it more difficult to cut the deficit. They are now such as Ireland, Germany and France, yet in Wales we set to borrow £46 billion more than they planned. They still have a 20% VAT rate. I have spoken with members have created a vicious circle, with massive public sector of the Government about this and I have been told that job cuts, fewer people paying taxes, more people claiming we need to provide proof that a reduction in the VAT jobseeker’s allowance, less revenue in Government coffers rate in the tourism sector would be beneficial. and therefore higher than expected borrowing. They A report that I have obtained from Deloitte indicates should face up to the fact that these deep cuts are that if, for example, the VAT rate on hotel bedrooms self-defeating. was reduced from 20% to 5%, there would be an immediate It is not just the Labour party that is telling the cost of about £1.2 billion in the short term, but over the Government that their economic policy is dangerously period of a Parliament, there would be a net benefit of wrong. Businesses, commentators and economists are £2.4 billion to the UK economy. When we recall that the lining up to urge them to develop a credible plan for Prime Minister stated that tourism should be a driver growth. Even the Conservative Chair of the Treasury for growth in our economy and that tourism is a sector Committee, the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), that employs people on a very large scale, we need to who is not in his place, has criticised the Government consider that. I would be grateful if we could receive for lacking a growth plan. He recently said that the some comment from the Treasury in due course on the “piecemeal policies for growth need radical improvement. In issue and the need to examine it. places it is inconsistent, even incoherent.” Finally, in the spirit of cross-party co-operation, In fact, the Tory leadership was so worried about his which some Members have mentioned, the fact that forthright opinions that he was literally bundled into a Labour Front Benchers have decided to take on board private room for a quiet chat after the Prime Minister’s the concerns of the construction sector is not a reason speech to his party conference. The Chancellor’s good to dismiss the option of changing the rate of VAT friend, the managing director of the International Monetary charged on work to existing buildings. Many small Fund, Christine Lagarde, has also warned that the construction companies argue that the current situation, Government should be prepared to change course if the in which there is a zero rate of VAT on new build but a economy is headed for weak growth and high 20% rate on refurbishment, is an anomaly that we must unemployment. Surely that is exactly where we are now. look at. There are figures that indicate that reducing VAT on refurbishment would be economically beneficial, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The Opposition’s and the fact that the Labour party has adopted it is not motion recognises the need for a one-year cut in VAT a reason to say no. on home improvements. Does the hon. Lady feel that such an initiative, by its own nature, will motivate the 5.20 pm construction industry, give opportunities to apprentices Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): in particular and ensure that the economy grows, rather It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate. Today’s than stagnates? shocking unemployment figures are only the latest confirmation that the Government’s economic policy Emma Reynolds: I could not agree more, and I was is in tatters. When they came into power last May, just moving on to the interdependence between the the economy was growing and unemployment was public and private sectors, which the Government seem falling. Only 16 months later there is a growth crisis in to be totally unaware of. According to an independent our country. Growth is flatlining. Unemployment is study, at least 2.3 million private sector jobs are now at rising and is at its highest level since 1994. Youth risk from public spending cuts. Some parts of the unemployment is rising and is at its highest level since country are being hit harder than others. Oxford Economics records began. Women’s unemployment is rising and is forecasts that in the west midlands, between 2010 and at its highest level since 1988. In my constituency the 2016, 310,000 jobs are at risk in private sector firms that claimant rate has increased by 10% over the past year are directly or indirectly reliant on public sector spending. and we have an unemployment rate that is double the That is on top of a net loss of 50,000 public sector jobs national average. across the west midlands. What do the Government say? They try to blame the The victims of this Government’s policy are mostly eurozone. That is a completely fatuous claim, because the young and women. Young people are the future of unemployment in the eurozone and in the US is falling. our country. For the first time in decades, parents are 419 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 420 pessimistic about their children’s futures, wanting them We heard nothing from the Opposition about their view to do better than they did but fearing that their opportunities of this crucial issue; they have not made up their minds will be worse than their own. about employment regulation. I want parents, not It is time for the Chancellor to put aside his original bureaucrats, to be in charge of systems such as child political strategy of getting the pain in early in this care. We need to get rid of the bureaucracy that has Parliament and admit that his economic plan is not raised the costs and limited the supply of child care. No working. He needs to change direction. There is an new places have been provided since 2005, and that is a alternative. Of course we need to reduce the deficit, but Labour party legacy. with deep and fast cuts, his plan is not working. Without We need a massive focus on improving maths and economic growth, it will not be possible to bring the science in our schools. All the leading countries—Germany, deficit down. Canada and many Asian countries—insist on rigorous subjects until the age of 16, including languages, history 5.25 pm and sciences. The Opposition have done nothing but Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): We have oppose the English baccalaureate that brings those heard eloquent speeches about the western debt crisis, subjects in. but underlying that we have a competitiveness crisis, It is going to be a long, hard slog to get our country because the west has built up debt while the east has back on track after the huge misuse of capital, the saved, and there is a gross imbalance. inflexibility and the regulation of our labour market of The legacy of 13 years of Labour Government is one the past 13 years, but we must do it. Britain has to stop of red tape, meddling and taxation. We are now 83rd in comparing itself just with other countries in Europe; we the world for our burden of regulation and 94th for our have to compare ourselves with rising countries across burden of taxation. We are 28th in terms of infrastructure. the world. We have to be humble enough to learn In maths, we are 28th, and in science, we are 16th. We lessons from those countries, rather than just looking have the highest child care costs in the world. Labour over our shoulders. made the labour market much more inflexible and made life much more difficult for working parents. In 5.30 pm 1997, there were 100,000 child minders in the market; Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): by 2010, that figure had reduced to 55,000 because of It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for South the burden of regulation on the sector. Child minders West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss). Her points about were the cheapest and most flexible way of providing competitiveness in the long term and the immediate child care. A lot of people have struggled to get child future are valid. However, all of us who have been in care because of the costs that Labour imposed on the industry know without a doubt that long periods of market. deflation, inactivity, insufficiency of demand and cuts In education, we saw a denigration of traditional hurt competitiveness. That is the trouble with the subjects such as maths, science and languages. Whereas Government’s policy. those in the rest of the world were encouraging students By sleight of hand and cleverness in debate, the to do those subjects, in Britain the numbers dropped, as Chancellor seems to have turned the debate from being did the quality. We have the lowest proportion of 16 to about what the Government’s plan originally aimed to 18-year-olds studying maths in the OECD. Labour do into being about debt and interest rate management. Members have talked about youth unemployment, but We are all pleased that there has been some success in what about their appalling record in education, which those areas, but at what cost has that success come? It means that many of our young people have left school has come at the cost of missing the central aim of the without the skills they need to work in today’s workplace? plan that the Chancellor set out when he came into Many employers care most about languages, yet the office in June last year: to reduce the deficit within this proportion of those studying languages at GCSE dropped Parliament. It is quite obvious that we are not getting from 79% to 44%. The shadow Chancellor used to be anywhere near that. Indeed, every single indicator in the Education Secretary; he did nothing in that job to the plan is going into reverse and being missed. The improve the skills of young people. unemployment figures that came out today are disastrous Then we move on to infrastructure. Huge amounts of and will make the plan cost a lot more. We are overshooting money were wasted on wasteful schemes such as Building the borrowing requirement, which was meant to be Schools for the Future. Meanwhile, in 1997 Labour reduced, by £46 billion before we even come on to the cancelled the road building programme, leaving roads increased costs of higher unemployment and the benefits such as the A11 undualled and the economies of counties that go with it. such as Norfolk held back. Luckily we have a new Government who are putting in that infrastructure, and Robert Flello: Will my hon. Friend give way? that work is starting next week. The Opposition talk about living standards, but how Mr Robinson: I will give way in a moment. are we to get our living standards up if we cannot Inherent in the plan are further unnecessary deflation produce goods competitively with the rest of the world? and cuts in the economy. The growth plan was essential At the moment, we are buying more goods and services to the original plan of stabilising and reducing the from those in the rest of the world than they are buying deficit. I agreed with that entirely, as I am sure did all from us. That is a legacy of the previous Government’s Members, particularly the Government Members who supply-side policies. speak about the private sector. However, it relied on the What do we need to do? First, we need to reduce private sector getting going and increasing investment, regulation. The Chancellor is absolutely right about output and net exports. Every one of those things is lengthening the period for applying for unfair dismissal. going into reverse. 421 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 422

[Mr Robinson] The Chancellor has now come up with a great plan for credit easing, but who is going to administer it and After I have given way to my hon. Friend, I will come dress up the bonds involved? Will there be a composite back to that point and deal with this week’s National element of different companies? Who will decide who Institute of Economic and Social Research report. gets the money and who does not? Perhaps the Chief Secretary will enlighten us when he winds up the debate, Robert Flello: My hon. Friend is making a very good but there is nothing concrete about the plan. It is just an point about growth in the private sector. His constituency, idea that has been floated, like Merlin or monetary like mine, will have businesses that could export because easing. It sounds good—if we could get small companies they have order books for three years, but cannot because in my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the the banks will not lend them any money to solve their Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) back cash-flow issues. They cannot do the work or fulfil their working with money, it would be great. We would all contractual orders because they do not have the working back it, as we are in principle. capital to do so due to the nonsense that is going on. It is no good the Government believing that they cannot embark on capital investment right throughout Mr Robinson: I could not agree more with my hon. the economy. Of course the plans will take time to Friend. I will come to the problem of bank lending introduce, although if they had been started a year and towards the end of the few minutes that I have. a half ago, when we pointed out to the Government To see the central failure of the plan and why it is so what they should be doing, they would be ready now. obviously not working, one must just look at what the Every time we have gone to the Treasury we have NIESR has said about the progress of manufacturing, been told, “Oh, that won’t have any effect immediately.” on which the plan relies: That argument just puts off the day on which plans are implemented. The Government’s plan is not “manufacturing output—the biggest contributor to industrial working, and we can put forward plans that would get production—fell for the third month in a row, suggesting the engine of the economic recovery had shifted into reverse.” the country back to work and also help to reduce the deficit much more effectively than the Government’s I do not think that anybody can doubt that. The plan is failed plans are. not working, like it or not. Manufacturing output fell 0.3% between July and August, meaning that it has fallen for three months in a row. At the beginning of 5.36 pm this year it was increasing by 6.1%, but that has dropped David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Thank you, to 1% on an annual basis. We are looking at a catastrophe. Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the chance to speak The Government attempt to blame all of this on the in this important debate. previous Labour Government, as if we created the Our economy continues to face challenging times, world crisis, which we did not. We have to find a way of with the crisis in the eurozone and ongoing problems in yanking them out of that mindset. It is quite clear to the global capital markets. The Government’s plan for anybody looking at the situation as we go into the recovery is therefore more important than ever, and second year of their plan that they own this economic entrepreneurs play a vital role in taking it forward. Our policy. It is their economic policy and their plan that are everyday entrepreneurs are critical to the agenda of on trial, not what the Labour Government did or did innovation, job creation and economic growth; it is not not do five, six, seven or eight years ago. It is their plan just down to the Government. that is not working. I do not know why everybody on the Government Benches cannot see that that is a In Macclesfield we have been doing all we can to simple fact. Whether we did the right thing is totally support our vital small and medium-sized enterprises, irrelevant to the present situation. The question is, is the with bi-monthly breakfasts at which up to 130 businesses Government’s plan working? It is quite clear that it is come together to work out what can be done to strengthen not. I will willingly give way to the Chief Secretary if he the local economy. We also have an economic forum to wants to intervene on that point. Realising that, the implement the action plans that are needed, but it is Government are trying to move the debate to another clear that what entrepreneurs in Macclesfield and across issue, which is not the central issue. the country want is a sound economic framework and sound economic policies to support them in their work. The Government are also trying to introduce some measures that will help, and they have gone for monetary Sadly, entrepreneurs are living with the legacy of not easing and credit easing. The trouble is, the history of just the previous Government’s deficit but the £90 billion monetary easing does not suggest that it gets into the a year cost of new regulations on businesses that have real economy. Indeed, when the Governor of the Bank been put in place over the past 13 years. That additional of England gave that remarkable interview to two economic cost makes the difference between profit and loss for journalists following the announcement of the £75 billion small businesses. My hon. Friend the Member for South increase in monetary easing, he could not say that it West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) has already pointed out would get into the real economy. He said, “That’s none that our regulatory burden puts us 89th out of 139 of my business,” but of course it is. He said, “I will lend countries in the perception of the weight of regulation. it to the banks, what they do with it is up to them.” We That has to change. know as a fact from previous experience that it does not It is not just domestic regulation that is entangling get to the high street or into the real economy. Unless our entrepreneurs, because the European Union has measures are taken to direct that money effectively in become a major source of red tape. Since 1997 the EU some way or another, against the Governor’s explicit has produced 100,000 pages of new regulations that tie policy of not interfering in capital markets at all, it will the hands of our SMEs and damage our economic not work. We know that Project Merlin similarly failed. potential. That must change. 423 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 424

There are several important priorities in building the First, I want to make some points that might be of entrepreneurial economy that Government Members particular interest to Labour Front Benchers—I trust want to see. We want to see a reversal of the regulatory that they will be noted in detail. I congratulate Labour tide, the simplification of UK employment law and the Front Benchers on two major changes in the past three realisation of our SMEs’export potential. The Government weeks. I mentioned the first change earlier—the change are already working very hard in those areas and have of policy on VAT. The previous policy, which I disagreed introduced a one-in, one-out approach to regulation, with in the Chamber, was that the Labour party was in which will be vital. We have already seen the removal of favour of a permanent VAT reduction. Now, the policy 257 regulations in the retail sector alone. The new is for a temporary reduction—from what the shadow three-year moratorium on new regulation for the smallest Chancellor said, it appears that there would be a 12-month firms will help to protect start-ups during their most temporary reduction. vulnerable phase, and the red tape challenge will encourage The figures are huge. Just in the next Parliament, that businesses to identify the regulations that are preventing change in policy will mean that £50 billion will be them from doing the things they need to do. Those are available to a new Labour Government from revenues positive steps in stemming the tide of regulation. to the Exchequer. In the context of a snap election, In addition, we need to do more to simplify employment potentially £20 billion extra would go into the Exchequer law, which, given that job creation is vital to our economic in the next three years. Those are major sums, and I recovery, is a huge priority. As has been said, the therefore congratulate Labour Front Benchers on that Chancellor has done a great job in introducing an huge change in policy. extension of the qualification period for unfair dismissal. That is not the only change in policy—I would That is a way of reducing risk for employers when they recommend the second policy change to the Government, are taking on new staff, and it has been welcomed by and I should like to hear in the winding-up speeches many SME trade bodies. whether they are prepared to adopt it. Labour’s policy Another area that needs to be worked on is realising now is that all moneys from the privatisation of the the potential abroad of our entrepreneurial talent. A more recently part-nationalised banks will go 100% to report by the Select Committee on Business, Innovation offset the debt. That ought explicitly to be the policy of and Skills found that only one third of our SMEs are the Government. I trust that they are not thinking of involved in international trade. Germany has a much creating youth unemployment now to delay for giveaway higher percentage. The role of UK Trade & Investment Budgets just before the election. The electorate, as well is vital in that respect. It is extending its reach to more as business, will not forgive them for that. businesses, but when we look at the potential and the This Government have adopted an economic policy entrepreneurial flare of the 5 million SMEs in this of Japanisation. They are adopting the Japan Government’s country, it is clear that more needs to be done in approach, and anyone who wants to see precisely where communicating those great opportunities in overseas they are going needs to look at the economic history of markets. We need to do more to help small businesses to Japan over the past 20 years. do that. The Government are working to improve the conditions Jacob Rees-Mogg: It is not the Japanese approach. for economic growth, but, as in a human body, not all The Japanese Government have enormously increased growth in the economy is good, which the record of the their national debt, while we are going to reduce it. previous Government shows very clearly. We had unprecedented growth in the deficit, the burden of debt John Mann: On inflation and monetary policy, this is and the weight of business regulation. In the good precisely the Japanese model, but it does not work, times, they could have created the economic equivalent which is why there is already £46 billion in additional of an entrepreneurial athlete, but they instead created debt. The lesson from Japan is that we cannot deal with an economy that was more like a couch potato, bloated the debt without growth. That is the lesson that the on debt and ill prepared for the downturn. We are Government are not listening to. I recommend that changing that. Members on both sides of the House read up on the The Government clearly cannot and should not seek economic history of Japan. to build an entrepreneurial economy by themselves. I say to the Labour Front Bench team that we need to They are working with small businesses to create the be more specific about the cuts that we would make. I conditions that will unlock the potential of our realise that on welfare, for example, we cannot be specific. entrepreneurial, everyday heroes. Our SMEs also have a Like the Government, we are in favour of major change, responsibility in that task. Now is the time for them to but we do not know whether that will be successful. The demonstrate the same energy, commitment and creativity fact is that the state will shrink over the next few that is required in the marketplace to help constructively Parliaments—there is no other way to pay for our to shape Government policy. deficit reduction plans or the Government’s less coherent plans. We have to pay back the debt. The Government want to pay it all back now, while we are saying, in 5.41 pm essence, “No, we wouldn’t pay back as much now, but it John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Having listened for an would be paid back in future years.” That is the key hour and a half to the two Front Benchers, I suggest difference. Either way, it means that the state will have that we put them in a ring in Westminster Hall next time to shrink in future years, and I can suggest some things we debate the economy—we could charge the public a that we should be stating. little fee, which would be a modest contribution to What about Government Departments? Housing costs deficit reduction—and allow the rest of us a little more nine times as much in London as in Bassetlaw. I am not time to discuss the economy. suggesting that a major Department should move to 425 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 426

[John Mann] spend our way out of recession and load those businesses and individual owners with higher tax bills to meet that Bassetlaw—although we have the land—but there are spending and to service the inevitable debt. Sheffield, Leeds, Nottingham and many other places. Some Opposition Members have done their best to Let us see the Department for Culture, Media and highlight everything that is ill in the world, but we also Sport shifted to Manchester with the BBC. Let us see have to recognise that a lot is going well in this country. the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Only last week my right hon. Friend the Secretary of shifted. Let us see the Department for Environment, State for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Under- Food and Rural Affairs shifted. Let us see huge Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Departments, in their entirety, shifted out to the regions Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), the Minister of England. That would give a boost to economic responsible for shipping, came down to the borough of growth and bring permanent savings to the Exchequer. Thurrock to celebrate the investment in Britain’s new That ought to be part of our policy. global shipping port and logistics centre. That investment There are other smaller things that we could do. of more than $1 billion represents the largest job-creation What about the British Council? What a nonsense of an project in this country at present, with the potential to organisation to sustain! We could take some of that create up to 36,000 jobs in what will be Europe’s largest money and give it to British universities to do English- logistics park and, in the short term, 1,000 jobs as the language training abroad and build their business base next phase of the project kicks off. in emerging markets. At the same time, that would However, the port’s contribution to the economy reduce costs. What about unitary authorities? Of course, does not end there. Rather, it is a great illustration of many Members, being ex-councillors, do not want to how private investment in one place has a positive effect get rid of unitary authorities. What nonsense! There are throughout the local economy. Businesses around the 27 press officers in Nottinghamshire and 10 chief executives, region—27 million people will be within half a day of with head offices all over the place. Scrap them! Scrap the port—will be able to take advantage of a more large numbers of councils! What about the police? We cost-effective way of getting goods into and out of the cannot merge the police, but we can merge their country. The facility will transform our maritime port headquarters. We could rationalise NHS buildings across infrastructure and play a massive role in helping Britain’s the county. There is a vast array of things that we could economy over the coming years. It is a real force for do. There are the British Army bases in Germany. We competitiveness and illustrates the impact of good private could reduce the size of the base in Cyprus. We should investment. be levying at least 5% on the UK Crown dependencies to which we provide security. We should offer a permanent That is not the only investment taking place in my reduction in national insurance for small businesses to area. The port of Tilbury, now in its 125th year, is also get young people into apprenticeships and back into investing in expansion. There is also massive investment work. at Tilbury power station to create the world’s largest dedicated biomass power station, which will be contributing to the national grid before the end of the year. Those 5.48 pm are just a few examples of how private business is Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): It is a great generating the investment that will create more jobs and pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John add more wealth to the bottom line of the UK economy. Mann). I was rather shocked to find myself agreeing The answer is not Government spending; it is private with a number of his constructive suggestions, which sector investment. Those examples show that Britain is highlights the fact that this debate has been one of open for business and that private sector companies contrasts. There have been some very constructive have the confidence to invest in the UK. contributions from Members on both sides of the House When the Opposition highlight what is going wrong, on how we can do more to encourage growth, but some they are talking our economy down. We have a lot to have been disappointingly partisan. Our constituents offer in this country and we should be encouraging it. expect us to give wise counsel when discussing important One thing that has been mentioned is access to finance issues such as job creation and economic growth, not to for small and medium-sized businesses. Only last week I engage in party political spats. visited Barclays bank in my constituency, where I was I think that we would all agree that the contraction of told how much money the bank had been able to lend to the economy and the financial crisis were inevitably businesses. However, the complaint was that although going to impact on economic growth. The major fault money was still available in the pot, small businesses line between the two sides of the House appears to be were not coming for finance because of the narrative the role that the Government can play in addressing coming from the Opposition Benches about how it was that. The Opposition keep repeating their call that the not available. Let me say this to Opposition Members. Government must slow the rate at which we are cutting, Please stop talking our economy down. What they say but the irresponsible thing to do was to spend more will become a self-fulfilling prophesy. We have a lot to than the country could afford in the first place. Trying offer in this country; it is about time we encouraged it, to right that wrong by spending more money that we do not beat it up. not have is not the way to fuel growth. At the heart of the Opposition’s motion is the notion that Government 5.52 pm spending can pull us out of the recession, but again that is simply not the case. It is time the Labour party Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East learned that it is people and businesses that generate Cleveland) (Lab): Today we are talking about this wealth, not the Government. It is our job as a Government Government’s 18 months of turning growth into stagnation to facilitate and enable private businesses, not to try to and how they are essentially borrowing to cut. “A 427 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 428 manufacturing export-led recovery” is the Government’s The most troubling factor is the Chancellor’s deficit phrase—something I agree with—but those words sound reduction plan. It was predicated on 3% growth, but we as hollow as the Tory conference floor during the Prime have had less than 0.2% growth since May 2010. This Minister’s conference speech. The industrial production means that his plan is out of kilter with reality. The numbers for August coupled with a quarterly poll from Office for Budget Responsibility predicted £46 billion the British Chambers of Commerce point to the reality extra borrowing by this Government, but that figure is of long economic stagnation. Industrial output was up now rising. Sure enough, this Tory-Lib Dem Government 0.2% between July and August, but that was entirely will have to borrow half a trillion pounds. However, due to volatile energy and utility sector prices. unlike the Labour Government, who borrowed for growth, Manufacturing output was down 0.3% month on month— this Government are borrowing to cut, and they are much worse than predicted—with export order prospects cutting too fast and too deep. at their worst for two years according to the BCC. The hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth In retail, consumers are spending less than a year Truss) referred to savings surplus economies such as ago, as domestic spending runs below inflation. For all China, Germany and Japan. They are also manufacturing the talk of an export-led manufacturing policy, the surplus economies. We were one of those, back in the Government are still completely reliant on an ever-falling 1980s, until the decimation of the coal, steel and chemical pound in relation to the dollar. However, that is by no industries, all of which used to exist in my area. Under means an industrial strategy, and it is certainly not the 13 years of Labour government, we saw record industrial activism, especially as LEPs—another investment in industry. I speak as someone who worked, Government growth policy—still have no discernable and got his hands dirty, in industry. That Government powers. Nor do they have budgets or money, making invested in industry at record levels. We set up organisations them easy to organise, as they do not need accounts such as NEPIC—the North East of England Process departments. Enterprise zones are vague, while funding Industry Cluster—and One North East, which had a for the regional growth fund nationally in England is, as budget of £2 billion. We gave businesses leadership, and we all know, lower than the pot of cash for the Post we gave those organisations the cash to bring businesses Office mutualisation fund. Indeed, we have waited six in. We saw more than 60 chemical companies come to months for the RGF to be financed, but we have still Teesside, but now we have seen the closure of the received no answer from the Government Front Benchers Teesside Beam Mill and the loss of 1,500 jobs in the about when that money will come through. steel industry from Scunthorpe to Teesside. Job losses at BAE Systems and Bombardier are also just round the Gavin Williamson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? corner. This Government need to reassess their policy Tom Blenkinsop: I am sorry, but I am not taking any very fast. interventions because of the time. Those on the Government Front Bench talk about an 5.57 pm employee having to work for 24 months before being eligible for employment rights, but that might give the John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I will Government some difficulty, because it would run counter not take any interventions, as that would leave less time to the interests of new starters—young people seeking for others to speak. work, as well as apprentices. If the Government elongate The Opposition are complaining that the forecasts the time to 24 months, it will be easier for a company to show that the Government will have to borrow £46 billion sack an apprentice. more than was previously forecast. Their solution is to Today in the north-east, we have seen a reduction in borrow more money. They are proposing to borrow an employment of 17,000, an increase in unemployment of additional £31 billion in any one year—I think that that 19,000 and a 1,500 increase in those claiming jobseeker’s is the precise figure. I asked the shadow Chancellor allowance. We have seen the highest UK unemployment what he thought the limit on borrowing should be, but since 1994. What is the cost to the Treasury and the he did not answer the question. One presumes therefore taxpayer in benefits? The situation also damages demand that he has no idea what the limit is. Well, the limit on in the economy. borrowing is called the International Monetary Fund, when it has to come to the rescue when the markets will Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Will the hon. not fund a country’s deficit. Gentleman give way? The reality is that the interest rates on deficits matter, Tom Blenkinsop: I am sorry, but I am going to continue. because they represent a perception of the risk of non-repayment, and of the possibility that a Government Industry is withholding spending. Small businesses will become insolvent. The difficulty is that, as a country seeking capital cannot get it except at exorbitant rates, increases its deficit, it also increases that interest rate. and those that do have capital are holding it as cash and Gradually, the interest rate increases on the whole of not investing. Large industries with access to the money Government debt, not just that borrowed in one year. If markets are still holding off, as there is no national state the whole of Government debt is in the order of £1 trillion, capital underwriting or guarantees. This all comes down 1% of that is £10 billion. That £10 billion has to be to confidence. In an article in The Times yesterday found either from additional taxes over time, or from entitled “Here comes the double-dip, say finance chiefs”, additional cuts. Labour’s strategy would lead to greater Ian Stewart, Deloitte’s chief economist, was quoted as cuts or greater taxes in the long term—probably greater saying: cuts. “Although corporates have the firepower to expand, at the moment their trepidation is with growth, so they are cycling back Let us look at how we have got into this situation. An to exactly what they were doing in late 2008, which is cutting costs interesting person to turn to for quotations on this is and building up cash.” Lord Turnbull, who was the Cabinet Secretary at the 429 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 430

[John Hemming] economics—with first-class honours or had learned nothing from it. I think his father would be well qualified start of the third Blair Government. He said that excessive to ask for his money back from Oxford, because that borrowing started to be a problem from 2005. I quote goes directly against Keynes’s advice on the savings him: fallacy, which is “The more you save, the more you “It kind of crept up on us in 2005, 2006, 2007, and we were still compound recession.” It also runs against the advice of expanding public spending at 4.5% a year”, the Office for Budget Responsibility, which predicated and he argued that the Treasury should have put more what pathetic growth is going to occur the next year on money aside. He said last year that the primary reason consumers building up consumer debt to pay for products, Britain was increasing demand. “in the mess that we’re in” I cannot launch the same accusation against the was that Chancellor because he took a history degree. He does “public spending got too big relative to the productive resources understand economics, but as far as I can see he thinks of the economy, by error”. he is the reincarnation of Montagu Norman: he has the He added that a loss of output caused by the financial same policy and economics as him. Neither of them, in crisis also contributed to the Budget deficit. The mistake their obsession with debt and borrowing—also well is thinking that the problem is caused by one thing exemplified in the last speech—shows any consideration, alone. There are a number of factors: one is the banking or knowledge, of demand. Because demand is so weak problem; another is overspending by the previous Labour in our economy, there will be no investment, and if Government. there is no investment, there is no increase in production What we have before us is a motion to deal with a and no increase in employment. If there is no increase problem caused partly by overspending, to which the in either of them, there is no growth, yet it is only proposed solution is yet more spending. In this instance, growth that will allow us to pay off the debt we have that means borrowing by the Government for private accumulated. Demand is the key problem, and the spending, to be fair, although a cut in VAT on a temporary obsession with debt obscures it. Instead, the Government basis does not generally feed into people’s pockets, but compound the problem by cuts that are going to kill into those of the corporations that do not reduce their recovery. prices and do not have to pay so much tax. The folly of that is that we are freer than any other In his memoirs, Tony Blair proposed what should country to act for ourselves and to take measures to have been done. On page 679, we can read him reflecting expand the economy and boost demand. Europe is on what should have been done, consistent with his locked into the euro crisis—a self-generated crisis—from analysis of the economy: which we were saved by my right hon. Friend the “In my view, we should have taken a New Labour way out of Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), the economic crisis: kept direct tax rates competitive, had a who, thank heavens, kept us out of the euro. Greece and gradual rise in VAT and other indirect taxes to close the deficit, the other Club Med economies, which must include and used the crisis to push further and faster on reform.” Ireland now that the gulf stream is warming up the Irish Tony Blair was clear that Labour should have put up economy, cannot devalue or escape from the crisis by VAT. reducing interest rates, so they are trapped. We are not. I kept my ballot paper for the Labour leadership We can reduce interest rates, and we can devalue; indeed, election; I did not think it was right for me to fill it in. we have devalued. We can use all the weapons of economic One interesting thing about that ballot paper was that it management that the euro prevents. came along with the manifestos of the candidates. I Nor are we in the same trap as America. Its President looked at the entry for the shadow Chancellor, who said is effectively trapped by a Republican Congress whose that he had been “leading the fight” against the VAT members have “Tea Party economics” embossed on rise. Last year, he led the fight against the VAT rise; now their foreheads, and can neither increase taxation nor he says, “Yes, we need the VAT in the long term”, as at boost spending. We are free to act—yet that freedom least the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) has been abused by action that is directly counter-productive, recognises; he must have managed to persuade him. and based on piggy-bank economics rather than any What question needs to be asked? The Government manifestation of economic sense. Such a policy would have a strategy, and the strategy is reducing the deficit. be appropriate for a Government of millionaires who There are obviously difficulties, given that the solution could sit comfortably on the piles of their money and must be worldwide. Is it therefore right to follow the say, “A few more sacrifices from the working class, a few Labour party’s example and borrow yet more money— more unemployed, a few more public servants fired, another £31,000 million a year—increasing the debt and we’ll all be better off: Britain will win through and potentially increasing the need for rescue in the thanks to the sacrifices of other people.” However, it long term, or should we keep on with the strategy we bears no relation to economic sense, so it will not work. have? My view is that we should keep to the strategy Our recovery was always going to be slower. The that we have got. recession hit harder here because of the exaggerated financial sector that has resulted from the destruction 6.2 pm of so much of our manufacturing—particularly the Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I knew something Thatcher destruction of the 1980s—and the fact that so was desperately wrong with Government economic policy much of it is now foreign-owned. However, we must not when I heard last week that the Prime Minister had to compound our difficulty and make recovery even slower be forcibly restrained from telling us all to pay off our by dragging out a period of low growth. Unless policy is credit card debts. It was as though he had never taken a reversed and we have a plan B—I have a name for the degree at Oxford in PPE—politics, philosophy and great day when policy is reversed; I am going to call it 431 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 432 national B-Day—we shall be doomed to a winter that on the left. That is DERFT—the Daventry international will be hard, miserable and tough, in which unemployment Rail Freight Terminal. Some 9,000 new jobs will be will increase, more people will be put out of work to created if DERFT 3 goes ahead. increase Government borrowing and Government debt, We want to encourage small business. The Labour and more small businesses will be destroyed. party has always had a plan for that, too—it has a good reputation in encouraging small business—but our plan 6.7 pm is different. Labour’s plan was to take a big business and add a shed-load of regulation—in which case, sure Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): I welcome enough, we will absolutely get a small business—whereas the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) to her our plan is to make sure we encourage people to take Front-Bench position, and wish her all the best in it. It that tiny bit of risk required in business by deregulating has been fascinating to listen to some of the speeches as much as possible and having a flexible job market made by Members sitting behind her. We heard, for that enables them to create jobs. instance, the “Tale of One City”, the wonderful city of My background is not the same as that of the hon. Middlesbrough. The hon. Member for Middlesbrough Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, as (Sir Stuart Bell) emphasised the importance of the I did run my own business. I worked nights for 11 years enterprise zone in securing jobs in the new businesses importing and wholesaling fruit and veg. Alas, however— coming to the city, while the hon. Member for the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom is wrong about this—I am not a millionaire. I do not Blenkinsop) essentially “dissed” the whole project. I even aspire to be one. What I want to do is make sure hope that Middlesbrough has the future predicted by that my constituents who do aspire to be millionaires the hon. Member for Middlesbrough rather than that get the opportunity to achieve that, and running a small predicted by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South business is a very good way to start. and East Cleveland. If we want to encourage jobs and growth, we need to In discussing this motion about jobs and growth, make small businesses more successful. Therefore, we Opposition Members have tended to refer to public need to reduce regulation, so I welcome the national sector jobs and growth while those on our Benches have insurance measures we have introduced, but I think the understandably referred more to the private sector. We Government can do much better on relaxing procurement know that every penny spent by the state must be rules to enable small businesses to bid for county council created by those who are demonised by a number of contracts without having to go through pages of needless Opposition Members, especially the Leader of the paperwork. To allow small businesses to succeed, therefore, Opposition, as those nasty, awful people, the wealth we need more flexible labour markets and less regulation, creators of the nation. As my hon. Friend the Member and we also need to sort out Her Majesty’s Revenue and for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) reminded us, it is Customs. people and businesses who generate wealth, not the Government. 6.12 pm Businesses such as Cummins, Ford, Tesco, DHL and Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) hundreds of smaller manufacturing businesses are all (Lab): Today, we were once again treated to a typically creating jobs in my constituency at this moment. I note knockabout speech from the Chancellor. It was founded that the hon. Member for Leeds West has not tried to on the entirely specious notion that the cost of implementing intervene to remind me about the job statistics in my the five points put forward by my right hon. Friend the constituency. Under Labour between August 2006 and Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) would be August 2010, soon after the present Government came £27 billion, of which £15 billion is supposed to represent to office, the number of jobseekers nearly doubled. speculative market response. In fact, however, if any Under this Government it has fallen by a small handful, Government were to come forward with a plausible and the number of people claiming jobseeker’s allowance growth policy, it would almost certainly be greeted with for more than 12 months has dropped by a third. That is a positive market reaction. because we have a healthy private sector that we are The key problem for the British economy today is not trying to encourage in the best ways available to us. indebtedness; rather, it is lack of demand. The UK I wonder which of the businesses whose names I read debt-to-GDP ratio is, in fact, quite modest, but Government out earlier—Cummins, Ford, Tesco and DHL, those cuts are clearly worsening the problem of lack of demand horrible big businesses—are among the predatory businesses while hardly reducing the deficit at all because of falling that the Leader of the Opposition said, in his conference tax revenues and rising unemployment. At present, for speech, that he or his civil servants would blacklist: every 2.7 jobs lost in the public sector, only one is being businesses such as the awful AA, those terrible people created in the private sector. from Saga, McVities, or—my God, even worse than The alternative policy is a public sector-driven jobs that—the people from Boots! and growth strategy. That is the only way to get out of I am lucky, as my constituency has a dynamic district slump when the private sector contracts, which it is council that is doing its best on planning and encouraging doing at present. We must get people off the dole, thus growth. We have also been lucky in that our bid to have reducing the enormous cost of benefits, and get them a university technical college based in the constituency into work where they can contribute to tax revenues as was successful. We know that future jobs growth must well as regain their independence. Keeping 1 million be sustainable; it needs to be for the local market, and it people on the dole costs £7 billion a year. For the same needs to provide relevant jobs for relevant industries. amount of money, 400,000 jobs could be created. This strategy is working in Daventry. When people The Chancellor always says at this point, “Yes, but driving up the M1 reach junction 18 they see big sheds how’s it going to be paid for?” Well, I will tell him. It 433 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 434

[Mr Michael Meacher] come from in future. We know that this is a debt crisis, so why did people borrow so much and save too little? It need not be paid for by borrowing at all. First, the was because interest rates were too low for too long. growth dividend even from a miserable 1.5% growth a Anybody who has a savings account or a mortgage will year still yields an extra £40 billion in Government know that it is the Bank of England which in the UK revenues over four years. A financial activities tax in the determines the height of the interest rates market. The City at even the modest rate of 0.05% would raise about set-up of our monetary system means that money is £20 billion a year. The Chancellor changed the controlled loaned into existence. It has been an institutionally foreign company rules and those for capital gains tax, inflationary monetary system since the end of Bretton capital allowances and inheritance tax. The only Woods. beneficiaries of those changes are corporations and the My argument, which is one Hayek advanced in his very rich, and they will deprive the Exchequer of a Nobel lecture, is that when employment comes from an further £2 billion a year over the next few years. That increase in the money supply, that employment lasts money could have been used to create jobs. The reason only as long as the money supply increases, or perhaps why the Government are not going to do any of those only as long as it continues to accelerate. My preferred things is, of course, that they have an ideological hang-up measure of the money supply comes from Kaleidic about the public sector. The whole point about the Economics. If we look at it, we find that from 2002 the massive cuts programme is that it provides the opportunity money supply not only increased, but accelerated in its that the Conservative party has been awaiting for so increase—the level was above 10% from 2004 and in long to squeeze the welfare system, shrink the state and 2007 it went as high as 27% by that measure. The money make, once and for all, the transition from the public supply is now contracting at a rate of about 5% a year. sector to a fully privatised economy. I am delighted to see the previous Chancellor in his The Chancellor has two answers to the important place, because had he accepted my intervention earlier I question about from where we get future growth. He would have said to him that at the time he left power says that it is by returning as quickly as possible to the there did appear to be growth, but that it was simply pre-financial crash neo-liberalism City dominance. That quantitative easing washing through the system, distorting is not tenable and it is not sustainable after what has the overall GDP numbers and causing the impression of happened. Secondly, he says that it is through private growth. In fact, we had further money entering the borrowing. Extraordinarily, the Chancellor, who rightly system, distorting the structure of relative prices and said before the election that private borrowing was out making the problem worse later. of control, is now proposing—this is the last resort of a pretty desperate man—to rack it up from its current If we examine the Office for National Statistics price level of £1.5 trillion to more than £2 trillion by 2015, index going back to 1750—at least one of my hon. which is an increase of 35%, according to the Office for Friends will remember—we find that we have had the Budget Responsibility. Of course that probably will not most astonishing currency debasement since 1971. Indeed, happen, but if it did it would certainly lay the foundations in the 19th century prices experienced secular deflation, for an even bigger financial crash next time around. and had an ordinary person saved £1 in 1900, they would have been able to buy a larger basket of goods My final point is that the elephant in the room, the had they done so between 1800 and 1900. Had that state of manufacturing industry, is simply being ignored person saved £1 in 1971, they would be extremely and neglected by the Government. Last year, the UK disappointed today. deficit on trade in goods was £100 billion—6.8% of GDP. That is simply not sustainable. We need a smaller Inflation is not harmless. It widens wealth inequality City, and a bigger and more robust manufacturing and creates patterns of employment that are sustained sector. That means putting far more resources into only by increases in the money supply. For those of us improving manufacturing productivity; skills training; who are sincerely concerned about jobs and growth, it is protecting strategic sectors of our economy from foreign time to consider whether we should not expect to create takeovers; restoring supply chains in key sectors, which employment simply by increasing the money supply. It have been broken up by over-ready selling up; incentivising seems to me that we are now boxed into a corner. We an increase in market share over short-term profiteering; know that we have got into this mess through low and helping small and medium-sized enterprises to interest rates, yet we cannot now afford to allow interest upgrade to be higher tech, so that they are less exposed rates to rise—far too many people are far too indebted. to Asian competition. The Opposition do have a plan That leaves the Government with something of a problem for growth. Until the Government come forward with a and I think they are right to think extremely carefully plan for growth, they do not have an economic policy about how we can achieve deleveraging. The Chancellor worth the name. is correct, and has been for some time, to call for an economy based on “save and invest”and on real productive savings. It does not do to expand the money supply in 6.17 pm excess of real savings, by which I mean prior production Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): It is a pleasure to and consumption that is less than that production. The follow the right hon. Member for Oldham West and accumulation of capital is the only sustainable way to Royton (Mr Meacher), and I share some of his concerns raise real wages for normal people. about the outright dominance of the City. I wish to I encourage the Government to stick to their policy draw the House’s attention to my declaration of interests of encouraging save and invest, but I express misgivings in relation to Cobden Partners. about quantitative easing. I ask them to look at the We are in the midst of this jobs and growth crisis, so I theories of the monetary effects on the trade cycle and feel that we should ask ourselves where jobs and growth whether patterns of employment have been sustained came from, where they have gone and where they will by increases in the money supply. As we go forward, I 435 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 436 ask them to consider extremely carefully whether we So what can we do? We could reduce VAT on a need to go somewhat further than Vickers in creating temporary basis to encourage people to come back to the right monetary system on which to build a sustainable the high street, but we could do more than that. We economy. could encourage local authorities to reduce their business rates so that people can stay in their businesses and we could encourage communities to come in so that these 6.21 pm places are not boarded up. Above all, we could ask Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): It is a pleasure to authorities to start providing free car parking. That be called to speak in the debate, and a pleasure to follow might be a bit more simplistic than the credit swaps we the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker). As a have heard about, but I am concerned. history graduate, I have enjoyed the history lessons I am going to say something quite shocking which is during this afternoon’s debate. I enjoyed the intervention not in vogue at the moment. This afternoon, I spoke to from the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Lloyds TSB and I thought, “It’s all very well to bash the Davies), telling me all about the ’40s, ’60s and ’70s. I banks”—and we should bash those who have been have heard many Members tell me what happened responsible—″but we have to make an assertion and under a Labour Government long before I was born, realise that only one part of the banking industry but it seems to me that we have always bounced back to failed.″ It was not the retail banker or the cashier in the same point: those on the Tory Benches say that it is Blackwood High street or Newbridge, who serves their all Labour’s fault, while we say that it is all the Tories’ community; it was the bankers in the City, and that part fault. The truth is, where is that getting us? should be reformed. However, we have to be very careful In my constituency, 2,000 people are claiming jobseeker’s when we talk about reform. We cannot introduce regulation allowance. Some 40% of those are under the age of 24. that hinders financial innovation. That would be impossible, Behind those figures, there are real human tragedies: and I am very concerned about that. kids leaving school believing that there is no hope for We have to ask ourselves how we are going to encourage the future other than being driven—let us hope not—into manufacturing when we do not encourage banks. I will the hands of drug dealers or becoming involved in be honest: I have been one of the banks’ biggest critics, crime; the hard-working father who comes home one but at the moment we are asking them to do something night and says to his family, “I’ve been made redundant that is almost impossible—we are asking them to save after 20 years,” and his wife who worries; the single money and lend at the same time. How will they do parent who is bringing up children on her own and who that? I do not know, but tonight I will walk through the has just lost her job. What does she do? It is all very well Lobby and support the motion, because I genuinely quoting statistics and figures, but what can we do for believe that we need to do something to promote growth. those people? Unemployment is not a price worth paying. For me, 6.26 pm anybody losing their job is a total tragedy. That is why the motion is so important: we should use bankers’ Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): I bonuses to create youth jobs and do something to help am pleased to speak at this late stage and it is a joy to people, not after being out of work for six months, as follow a Welshman who spoke, in all his eloquence, the Prime Minister said in his speech, but from day one. about unemployment. I should like to let him know that I remember when I was a trade union official and jobs Government Members understand the devastation that were going as, unfortunately, they were being offshored. a single extra person becoming unemployed can cause A scheme was created so that when people were made to families. Many Government Members have been redundant the company matched half their redundancy through that, but the problem for us in voting for the to be used for training. Some people decided to become motion is this: how can we go back to our electorate driving instructors, whereas others in the Solent decided and say that we voted for a motion that talks about to become ship builders, and so on. It interested them “sustainable” deficit reduction without mentioning any and that was what they wanted to do. I want some figures or its implications? The motion talks about “a incentive in the tax system for companies that make steadier deficit plan”, but I should have thought that people redundant to use similar ideas. the Chancellor was pretty steady about the deficit reduction plan and that we were pretty steadily behind that plan. David T. C. Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman give At least we are prepared to say where it is and what the way? figures are. The Opposition talk about a credible strategy for Chris Evans: I am sorry, I cannot take an intervention growth. In some senses, I want to follow the hon. because other people want to speak, although I would Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) and others who love to give way to the hon. Gentleman. have tried to introduce a degree of practicality into the As I was saying, when a person is unemployed—I do debate and provide some suggestions about dealing not know how many people in the Chamber have been with the difficulties we are facing. Let me outline my unemployed—it is soul destroying. It reduces confidence problems with the five-point plan for growth. I will not and, in the worst cases, it brings about depression. If be churlish by suggesting that it is only five points and anybody wants to see a microcosm of the economy, not six. There had to be only five points on those little they should walk down the local high street. There is cards that we used to have at election time, because six nothing more sad and depressing than seeing the butcher, or seven was too many. the baker and even the candlestick maker all boarded Let us look at the detail of the five-point plan. We up. Nothing says more clearly that the economy is not can see that Opposition Front Benchers have moved working. somewhat on the VAT issue and are now talking about a 437 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 438

[Eric Ollerenshaw] As we have heard, in the past nine months, the UK economy has not grown at all. Forecasts have had to be temporary cut. I have always thought, in terms of revised downwards, and the future prospects for growth economics, that temporary proposals sound a bit suspicious are bleak, given the scale of Government cuts and the both to me and to my voters as we do not think that Chancellor’s failure to acknowledge that in fragile economic they will have any real impact. times a slash-and-burn policy, far from stimulating This Government are acting to promote long-standing growth and bringing down the deficit, will cause growth infrastructure growth, as other hon. Members, such as to flatline. It will actually cost us more as a result of my hon. Friends the Members for South West Norfolk decreasing tax receipts, increasing benefit payments, (Elizabeth Truss) and for West Suffolk (Matthew Hancock), people having less money to spend, and the Government have said. They pointed to the dualling of the A11 and I having to borrow £46 billion more than they thought shall point to the M6 Lancaster-Heysham link in they would. Lancashire, which has been on the stocks since 1948. It As the head of the International Monetary Fund, has taken this coalition Government to put money into Christine Lagarde, warned, slamming on the brakes too that, but it is actually happening. quickly will hurt the recovery and worsen job prospects, The proposal for a one-year national tax break for yet the Chancellor is failing to heed the warning signs. small firms taking on extra workers seems suspiciously Economic indicators such as today’s unemployment like the coalition’s proposal for a national insurance figures, which are devastating for people in areas such holiday for new companies, except those in the south-east as my constituency, tell the Chancellor that not only is and the east, for up to 10 workers. That is where he going too fast, but he is on completely the wrong Opposition Front Benchers have missed a trick because road. We do need to reduce the deficit, but at a pace that nothing in their proposal would help us regionally in does not harm economic growth. Labour’s plan for the north. At least the coalition Government have growth involves bringing forward long-term investment recognised the mistakes of the previous Government in projects for schools, roads and transport, building 25,000 that London and the south-east did not need an extra more affordable homes, and creating 100,000 jobs for regional development agency or the other additions. young people, funded by a £2-billion tax on bankers’ This is about the balance between the north and the bonuses. That is what my constituents want a Government south, but the Opposition’s proposal completely ignores to do. that and wipes it away. That is a mistake. In my constituency, I see the impact of Government The Opposition are following along the right lines of policies mounting up in a multitude of individually our proposals, but their proposals are a mistake. That is small but cumulatively large ways. For example, there is why I want to get to the bottom of the five-point plan, the public sector worker who has had a pay freeze, is which does not help what the right hon. Member for paying 2.5% more VAT, has had their child care tax Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) and Government credits cut from 80% to 70%, and will soon have to Members have said is the key to this issue—small business. contribute 3% more to their pension. That is not to mention In my constituency, every two weeks I see a small the rise in inflation, how much more it costs to fill a business that has the potential for orders, and that tank with petrol, ever-rising fuel bills, or the extra needs that an extra shed or machine to meet those pounds that the weekly food shopping costs. There are orders, or that could take on an extra few people, but also the local services that people now have to pay for, cannot get the capital. The Federation of Small Businesses and that used not to come at a cost. has said that 30% of small businesses are in that position— This week, we have heard a stark warning from the they are missing out on capturing growth because of a Institute for Fiscal Studies and the Joseph Rowntree lack of capital investment. That is why I welcome the Foundation about the impact that the Government’s coalition’s plan for credit easing in the autumn statement. policies are having on child poverty. I was there, in the That is vital. previous Parliament, when all the party leaders and I welcome the decision to give Lancashire an enterprise MPs from all parties rushed to sign up to the child zone. The problem with enterprise zones in the past was poverty pledge to commit to abolishing child poverty the relocation of existing businesses. I have a suggestion within a generation. There was a cosy air of cross-party for the Government: I do not see why we do not declare consensus. As one of the MPs who had been working every university campus an enterprise zone. Overnight closely with the End Child Poverty coalition, I did not it would create what we are supposed to be helping to want to say or do anything to derail that, but I was create: new-scale business. quietly highly sceptical. There were warm words and There is a need out there. There are businesses with MPs posing with marker pens as they signed the pledge orders, but we need the credibility that the Government as part of a photo opportunity, so that they would have given to the finances. I look forward to the autumn appear in their local papers. statement, and to building on what I believe is a sustainable amount of growth, and sustainable support for small Charlie Elphicke: Will the hon. Lady give way? business. Kerry McCarthy: No, I do not have time. I was highly 6.30 pm sceptical that the pledges would translate into real action if the Conservative party got into Government. Sadly, Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): May I say what my scepticism has proved well founded. The IFS warned a pleasure it was to work with the shadow Chancellor yesterday that the Government’s tax and benefit changes and the rest of the shadow Treasury team over the past will push 400,000 children into relative poverty by 2015. year? Although I have moved on to pastures new, I am The number of children in absolute poverty will rise by very happy to speak in support of their motion today. 500,000 to 3 million. Instead of us eradicating child 439 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 440 poverty by 2020, the Government’s policies mean that unemployment has reached a 17-year high, the Government 3.3 million children—one in four children in the UK—will have no plan for jobs and for growth. Today’s numbers be in relative poverty. Labour when in government are proof that plan A has failed. lifted nearly 1 million children out of poverty; this While Government Members say that there is no Government will put another generation of children alternative to the policies being pursued by the Government, right back there. It is little wonder that the chief executive the Opposition have put forward a five-point plan for of the Child Poverty Action Group described it as a jobs and growth which was set out by my right hon. “devastating report”. She said: Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), “Ministers seem to be in denial that, under current policies, the shadow Chancellor, and supported by Opposition their legacy threatens to be the worst poverty record of any Members. My right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh government for a generation.” South West (Mr Darling) reminded us that a year and a half ago, the economy was growing and unemployment Sheila Gilmore: Does my hon. Friend agree that on was falling. How different from today. My hon. Friend top of the benefit changes, one of the big things that the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg will cause increased child poverty is the increased level Hillier) gave a vivid account of the impact that the of women’s unemployment, particularly because of the Government’s policies are having on constituents in huge cuts in the public sector, which will affect women Hackney. and then affect their children and plunge them into poverty? We heard about plans for jobs and growth rooted in the constituency experience from my hon. Friends the Kerry McCarthy: My hon. Friend makes a valid Members for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) and for Gateshead point, which is another sign of the devastating impact (Ian Mearns), my right hon. Friend the Member for of the Government’s policies. As I said, everything Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson), my hon. mounts up together; taken individually, it might not Friends the Members for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart seem that they are doing much harm, but people are Bell), for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds), beginning to feel the pain and beginning to realise how for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), for Bassetlaw much more pain is round the corner, not just for them, (John Mann) and for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), but for their children. my right hon. Friend the Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) and my hon. Friend the Member In the limited time available to me, I shall talk about for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy). unemployment, which in my constituency has risen by almost a quarter in the past year. Bristol was fortunate From the Government Benches we also heard some to be chosen as the site for one of the Government’s constructive speeches, particularly from the hon. Members new enterprise zones. Unlike the hon. Member for for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), I can just and for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb). Some Government about remember what they are called. The council says Members, however, defended plan A 100% but none of that that has the potential to create 17,000 new jobs, them, remarkably, wanted to talk about unemployment which is good, but that is over a 25-year period. We in their constituencies. One hon. Member gave a speech need jobs now. not even knowing that unemployment in his constituency A report by the Work Foundation concluded that was up 29.2% in a year. If that is not proof that plan A has failed, I do not know what is. “evidence suggests that Enterprise Zones…are likely to be ineffective at stimulating sustainable economic growth in depressed areas.” Let me rebut some of the Greek myths that we heard A Centre for Cities report found that the cost of each from the hon. Members for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng), new job created in enterprise zones over 10 years would for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) and for be £26,000, which compares to £6,500 to creating a job Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid), which they use as a smokescreen for a young person under the future jobs fund and just for their austerity programme. First, UK debt is just £3,500 for the new deal for young people. over 60% of GDP; in Greece it is over 150%. Secondly, the average maturity of our debt is roughly 13 years, I left school in the 1980s and nearly all my friends compared with around six years in Greece. Thirdly, spent years on the dole, their prospects of employment bond yields were falling in the UK ahead of the general bleak, with long spells of unemployment interspersed election, but they were rising in Greece. Fourthly, Greece with the occasional futile training scheme that did is part of the eurozone and so, unlike the UK, cannot nothing to land them a job at the end of it. They devalue its currency. This is a story of two very different thought they would never work, never own their own economies. The Greek defence for austerity simply does homes, never be able to afford to have a family. This not add up. Government seem intent on recreating that Thatcherite nightmare, with nearly 1 million young people now I urge hon. Members to look at the facts. We have unemployed. We cannot consign another generation to great British businesses, great British industries, great the scrapheap. Labour’s plans to create 100,000 jobs for universities and people in all our constituencies who young people are what is needed now. That is why I want to work hard and get on. Let us celebrate and support the motion. build upon our successes, rather than talking Britain down. Instead of the mantra of resignation and defeat from Government Members, the shadow Chancellor 6.37 pm has set out practical policies for jobs and growth. What Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): It is a privilege to a contrast and what a different message on how to wind up this debate as shadow Chief Secretary to the support families feeling the impact of rising energy and Treasury. I may be new to the job, but after five hours of food prices. What a different message to businesses debate today I am still no clearer on this Government’s worried about sales and accessing finance. What a different plan for jobs and for growth. Even on the day when message to young people looking at the prospect of 441 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 442

[Rachel Reeves] and replaced them with a regional growth fund that is yet to spend a single penny. The Government have enormous debts when they leave university, with less introduced what the Governor of the Bank of England and less hope of getting a job. described as the “weakest possible measures” to get When Labour left office unemployment was falling, banks lending—a ringing endorsement of their Project but today’s figures show that unemployment, at 2.57 million, Merlin. Today the Government have announced the is higher now than at any point during the recession, at guarantee of a job interview for 50,000 young people, a level last seen under a Tory Government. Youth but young people want not just an interview but a unemployment, at 991,000, is the highest ever on record guaranteed job or training—a real opportunity, which and is inching ever closer to 1 million. Unemployment they had under a Labour Government before the general for women has increased by 40,000 since May and is election and before the future jobs fund was scrapped now above 1 million, the highest level since 1988. Last by this Government. With policies such as these from week’s GDP revisions show that GDP estimates for the the Government, no wonder the economic recovery has second quarter had halved to just 0.1%. ground to a halt. Households are feeling the biggest squeeze on their Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): One of the most dreadful income for 35 years, but our out-of-touch Prime Minister things that this Government are doing is that when they lectures hard-pressed families to pay off their credit do spend money, for example on the rail or helicopter card bills right now. Tell that to the ordinary families contracts, they do not support British businesses such coping with the effects of the Government’s VAT hike. as Bombardier and AgustaWestland but spend money Tell that to the struggling small businesses trying to on jobs and growth abroad. Should we not be spending access credit from the banks. Tell that to the anxious British taxpayers’ money to preserve British jobs? young person who cannot even get a job. It is also crazy economics. Of course we all need to be prudent, but the Institute for Public Policy Research has calculated that Rachel Reeves: I could not agree more with my hon. if everyone were to pay off their credit card debts, Friend, with 1,000 jobs going at Bombardier and consumer spending would be reduced by 6% and GDP Government policies putting people out of work and would fall by 4%. businesses out of business. Growth has flatlined for nine months, starting before While the Government offer no relief, at least the the European debt crisis. We have heard the Chancellor’s Bank of England is offering some leadership, with an excuses. First he blamed the snow, then the royal wedding extra £75 billion through quantitative easing, which the and now Europe. When will the Government stand up Chancellor described just two years ago as and take responsibility for their actions? The managing “the last resort of desperate governments when all…other policies director of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, says growth is have failed”. necessary for fiscal credibility, and she is right. It is Let me be frank. The last Labour Government were because the economy has ground to a halt and desperate to avoid a global recession becoming a global unemployment is at 2.57 million that the Office for depression; desperate to ensure that unemployment did Budget Responsibility now forecasts that we will borrow not hit the 3 million mark, as it did in the recessions of £46 billion more over this Parliament than planned. the 1980s and 1990s; and desperate to avoid the business It is not possible to reduce the budget deficit while failures and home repossessions that scarred our country paying more in benefits and getting less through taxation. in Tory recessions. Government Members should be Austerity alone will not reduce the budget deficit without desperate today, because unemployment is at a 17-year a plan for jobs and growth. As my right hon. Friend the high, because borrowing in August reached a record Member for Edinburgh South West reminded us, 18 high, because growth has stalled, and because plan A months ago unemployment was falling, and as my right has failed. hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor noted, John Maynard Today, as we see the unemployment numbers, it would Keynes once said: be nice to have a Government who reacted and said “When the facts change, I change my mind.” they have got it wrong. Instead, it takes Labour to come to the Chamber with a five-point plan: a £2 billion tax John Maynard Keynes was a Liberal, and so too was on bank bonuses and a guarantee of a job for young the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. When he was a people; bringing forward long-term investment projects Liberal he said: to get people back to work; cutting VAT temporarily to “We are in real danger of condemning a generation of young give immediate help to our high streets and to struggling people to a cycle of unemployment and low expectations.” families and pensioners; cutting VAT to 5% on home How very prescient—on the day when figures reveal improvement repairs; and a one-year national insurance that unemployment has gone up to 991,000 under his tax break for every small firm taking on extra workers. watch. The Liberal Democrats were once progressives, That is a five-point alternative that offers hope and but now they just represent failed economics, implementing unlocks opportunity. the reckless policies that they said before the election We can call it what we will—plan A-plus, plan B, or would not work. the five-point plan—but this Government must come There has been much debate this afternoon about the up with an alternative to help families struggling with growth strategy that the Government promised, instead rising prices and stagnant wages, to help businesses that of which we have simply had a strategy for failure. They cannot get a loan and are scared to take on new workers, increased VAT, costing families £450 a year, and cancelled to help young people who are facing record youth the loan to Sheffield Forgemasters so that high-skilled employment, and to help pensioners facing higher gas jobs are now going to South Korea rather than south and electricity bills this winter. This Government must Yorkshire. They scrapped the regional development agencies act for every struggling family, for every struggling 443 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 444 business, and for every pensioner. They must act, with shadow Chief Secretary has her work cut out with the Labour’s five-point plan, to unlock the potential of shadow Chancellor, as well as with everyone else. That every young person in Britain, to create jobs, and to get is why I say that only the Liberal Democrats and the our economy growing. Their plan has failed. I urge hon. Conservatives have a credible economic plan. Members to support this motion. As many speakers in this debate have recognised, when we came into government we inherited the largest 6.48 pm peacetime deficit this country has ever faced. We were The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): borrowing one pound for every four that we spent. We This has been a very good debate in which we have were on a completely unsustainable trajectory, which heard 31 contributions from Back-Bench colleagues on compelled Standard & Poor’s to put the UK’s triple A both sides of the House. The right hon. Member for rating on negative watch. We had to take the difficult Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) made clear his and sometimes unpopular decisions to pull the country continuing support for paying our subscriptions to the out of that hole. We are taking action not because it is IMF. We heard particularly passionate speeches by the easy, but because it is the right thing to do in the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) and my hon. national interest. We are already seeing the benefits Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin from our plan. Williamson), who made strong pitches on behalf of Sheila Gilmore: I wonder whether the right hon. their constituents, as did many other hon. Members. Gentleman will apologise to all the people who voted Let me take this opportunity to congratulate the Liberal Democrat having heard his party say in the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury on her election campaign that to cut too fast would be detrimental appointment. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John to the economy. Mann) made a pitch for her job, but I think she is quite safe. She has a tough job to do in controlling the Danny Alexander: No, I will not because our plan for free-spending instincts of many of her colleagues. The deficit reduction is necessary to restore the credibility of Chancellor referred to the £11 billion cost of a commitment this country’s finances. If there is any apologising to be made in amendments that she tabled to the Pensions done, it is from Opposition Members. Bill on her last day as shadow Pensions Minister, and I As I was saying, we are already seeing the benefits hope that others will not follow her example. from our plan. Standard & Poor’s took the UK’s rating The shadow Chief Secretary will have to think carefully off negative watch and reaffirmed our rating in its latest about who she asks for advice. Perhaps she could ask report. the shadow Chancellor, or perhaps not. Perhaps she Several hon. Members rose— could ask my predecessor but one, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne), who left a Danny Alexander: I will not give way because I have message for my predecessor saying that there was no little time to get through the points made in the debate. money left. That is not the only message that he has left Standard & Poor’s warned that our rating would recently. [Interruption.] Calm down. My hon. Friend come under pressure if the Government faltered in their the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) commitment to fiscal consolidation. The markets have received a message yesterday on her answering machine also backed us. When we came into government our gilt from the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge yields were tracking the likes of Spain and Italy. Since Hill saying, “Could you put in to speak tomorrow? The then, our yields have fallen to follow those of Germany. shadow Chancellor needs all the help he can get.” It is to be assumed that he had confused my hon. Friend the Our plan makes a real difference to households and Member for Portsmouth North with the hon. Member businesses. It allows families to stay in their homes and for Newport East (Jessica Morden), who is next to her businesses to refinance their debt. As the Chancellor in the House of Commons telephone directory. Perhaps said, without a credible plan, interest rates would rise. A the shadow Chief Secretary could turn for advice to her 1% rise in interest rates would take £10 billion out of former boss, the Governor of the Bank of England, the pockets of British families through higher mortgage who last year backed this Government’s strong and costs, leading to higher repossessions and more job powerful deficit reduction plan, and who last week losses. That is the Opposition’s plan. reiterated that this Government have a credible plan to Ian Lucas: I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman repay our debts. In the end, the test for her and her for giving way. Given that youth unemployment is today party will be whether they have plans that are in any approaching 1 million and that as a Liberal Democrat way credible. On today’s evidence, the answer is no. he touted for votes by offering the abolition of fees and I will answer a couple of the questions that have been by pursuing the policy of the Labour party, rather than asked about Labour’s plans. It has set out plans today the policy he is now pursuing, does he not think that it for the Pensions Bill that would cost an additional is entirely understandable that young people have no £31 billion of debt. Somebody asked what the interest faith in politics? Should he not say sorry? on that would cost. It would cost £1.2 billion a year or £3.2 million a day.That is just on the spending commitments Danny Alexander: No, the hon. Gentleman should that Labour has made this week. say sorry, and of course we are supporting Airbus, in Likewise, the shadow Chancellor seems somewhat his part of the country, as part of our strategy for confused about his own policy on the switch from RPI creating jobs. to CPI. As I understand it, he will support the switch, We have only to look across the eurozone to see the for which I am grateful, for three years. That means that costs of political indecision and the price that comes he will seek to reverse it in 2014-15. That would cost an from consolidating at the behest of the market rather extra £6 billion at the end of this Parliament. The than taking charge of one’s own destiny, as the Government 445 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 446

[Danny Alexander] 2014, taking it to the lowest rate in the G7. We will increase the SME rate of research and development tax have. We have seen the problems in the eurozone and credits to 225% by April 2012, and we are tackling the are working to help, but we already have flexibility in problems of the imbalances in growth between regions, our own plan. By taking the tough decisions that we which a number of Members on both sides of the have on fiscal policy, we have provided the space in House have raised. That is why today, the Business which the Bank of England can act. In the Governor’s Secretary announced the first of our new technology own words, and innovation centres that are being established, and “monetary policy is the right way to take the strain of changes in why we have committed £1.4 billion to the regional the world economy.” growth fund, which has committed to projects in the As we have already said, we are considering credit north-east, the north-west and across the country. easing options as a way to inject money directly into the As the hon. Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart business sector. We will provide further details in the Bell) rightly observed, we have also announced 22 enterprise autumn statement, and I am grateful for the welcome zones that will attract hundreds of new start-up enterprises given to that policy on both sides of the House. and create thousands of jobs by 2015. We are ensuring, Of course, today’s unemployment figures are a reminder too, that our young people have the skills to seize their of the difficult task that we face. Unemployment is not opportunities through the recovery. We are supporting merely a statistic, it is a high cost for the individuals and more apprenticeships than any previous Government—by families concerned. It is not a price worth paying, and the end of this Parliament we will deliver 250,000 more that is why we will be relentless in our pursuit of than the previous Government planned, on top of a growth. total of 100,000 work experience placements. I know that this is a difficult time for many people Geraint Davies: Will the Chief Secretary give way? and families across the country, and that it is not much comfort to say that it would be very much worse if it Matthew Hancock: Will my right hon. Friend give were not for this Government’s determination to fix the way? failures of the past.

Danny Alexander: I will not. I only have a few minutes Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab) claimed left. to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36). We will not return to growth on the back of debt-fuelled Question put forthwith, That the Question be now consumption. put. Question agreed to. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Will the right Main Question accordingly put. hon. Gentleman give way? The House divided: Ayes 244, Noes 315. Danny Alexander: No, I will not. Division No. 365] [6.59 pm We will not return to growth on the back of what we might call predatory growth, based on spending money AYES we do not have, so that when the music stops and the Abbott, Ms Diane Brown, Mr Russell bills fall due, they have to be paid for by the rest of us. Abrahams, Debbie Bryant, Chris Instead, we are committed to building a new model of Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Burden, Richard growth powered by investment, exports and enterprise, Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Burnham, rh Andy for example by investing in infrastructure. Over the four Alexander, Heidi Byrne, rh Mr Liam years of this spending review period, we will invest Ali, Rushanara Campbell, Mr Alan more in transport infrastructure than our predecessors Allen, Mr Graham Campbell, Mr Ronnie Anderson, Mr David Caton, Martin managed in the previous four years. Ashworth, Jonathan Chapman, Mrs Jenny Austin, Ian Clark, Katy Rachel Reeves: Before the general election, the Secretary Bailey, Mr Adrian Clarke, rh Mr Tom of State for Business, Innovation and Skills said: Bain, Mr William Clwyd, rh Ann “Cuts without economic growth will not deal with the deficit.” Balls, rh Ed Coffey, Ann Does the Chief Secretary agree? Banks, Gordon Connarty, Michael Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cooper, Rosie Bayley, Hugh Cooper, rh Yvette Danny Alexander: I do, and I am about to set out Beckett, rh Margaret Corbyn, Jeremy exactly what this Government are doing for economic Begg, Dame Anne Crausby, Mr David growth, if I can be allowed two or three more minutes Bell, Sir Stuart Creasy, Stella to fill in that point. Benn, rh Hilary Cruddas, Jon As I was saying, we are investing in infrastructure. Berger, Luciana Cryer, John Only two weeks ago, I announced the creation of a new Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Alex “Growing Places” fund—half a billion pounds that will Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cunningham, Mr Jim Blears, rh Hazel Cunningham, Tony kick-start developments that are currently stalled, deliver Blenkinsop, Tom Curran, Margaret on key infrastructure and create jobs. Blomfield, Paul Dakin, Nic As my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Danczuk, Simon Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) said, we also have to stop the Brennan, Kevin Darling, rh Mr Alistair decay in our competitiveness that has marred the past Brown, Lyn David, Mr Wayne decade. so we are cutting corporation tax to 23% by Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Davidson, Mr Ian 447 Jobs and Growth12 OCTOBER 2011 Jobs and Growth 448

Davies, Geraint Jowell, rh Tessa Seabeck, Alison Twigg, Stephen De Piero, Gloria Joyce, Eric Shannon, Jim Umunna, Mr Chuka Denham, rh Mr John Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Vaz, rh Keith Dobbin, Jim Keeley, Barbara Sheerman, Mr Barry Walley, Joan Dobson, rh Frank Kendall, Liz Sheridan, Jim Watts, Mr Dave Docherty, Thomas Khan, rh Sadiq Shuker, Gavin Weir, Mr Mike Donohoe, Mr Brian Lammy, rh Mr David Skinner, Mr Dennis Whiteford, Dr Eilidh H. Lazarowicz, Mark Slaughter, Mr Andy Whitehead, Dr Alan Doran, Mr Frank Leslie, Chris Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wicks, rh Malcolm Dowd, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Angela Williams, Hywel Doyle, Gemma Lloyd, Tony Smith, Nick Williamson, Chris Dromey, Jack Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Owen Wilson, Sammy Dugher, Michael Love, Mr Andrew Spellar, rh Mr John Winnick, Mr David Durkan, Mark Lucas, Ian Stringer, Graham Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Eagle, Ms Angela MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Stuart, Ms Gisela Wishart, Pete Edwards, Jonathan MacShane, rh Mr Denis Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Wood, Mike Efford, Clive Mactaggart, Fiona Tami, Mark Woodcock, John Elliott, Julie Mann, John Thomas, Mr Gareth Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Ellman, Mrs Louise Marsden, Mr Gordon Thornberry, Emily Wright, David Engel, Natascha McCabe, Steve Timms, rh Stephen Wright, Mr Iain Esterson, Bill McCann, Mr Michael Trickett, Jon Tellers for the Ayes: Evans, Chris McCarthy, Kerry Turner, Karl Phil Wilson and Field, rh Mr Frank McClymont, Gregg Twigg, Derek Yvonne Fovargue Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonagh, Siobhain Flello, Robert McDonnell, John Flint, rh Caroline McFadden, rh Mr Pat NOES Flynn, Paul McGovern, Alison Adams, Nigel Burstow, Paul Francis, Dr Hywel McGovern, Jim Afriyie, Adam Burt, Lorely Gapes, Mike McKechin, Ann Aldous, Peter Byles, Dan Gardiner, Barry McKenzie, Mr Iain Alexander, rh Danny Cable, rh Vince Gilmore, Sheila McKinnell, Catherine Andrew, Stuart Cairns, Alun Glass, Pat Meacher, rh Mr Michael Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Glindon, Mrs Mary Mearns, Ian Bacon, Mr Richard Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Godsiff, Mr Roger Michael, rh Alun Baker, Norman Carmichael, Neil Goggins, rh Paul Miliband, rh Edward Baker, Steve Carswell, Mr Douglas Goodman, Helen Miller, Andrew Baldry, Tony Cash, Mr William Greatrex, Tom Mitchell, Austin Baldwin, Harriett Chishti, Rehman Green, Kate Moon, Mrs Madeleine Barclay, Stephen Chope, Mr Christopher Greenwood, Lilian Morden, Jessica Barker, Gregory Clappison, Mr James Griffith, Nia Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Baron, Mr John Clark, rh Greg Gwynne, Andrew Morris, Grahame M. Barwell, Gavin Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hain, rh Mr Peter (Easington) Bebb, Guto Colvile, Oliver Hamilton, Mr David Mudie, Mr George Beith, rh Sir Alan Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hamilton, Fabian Munn, Meg Bellingham, Mr Henry Crabb, Stephen Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Benyon, Richard Crockart, Mike Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Paul Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian Berry, Jake Davey, Mr Edward Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa Bingham, Andrew Davies, David T. C. Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Binley, Mr Brian (Monmouth) Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Birtwistle, Gordon Davies, Glyn Hepburn, Mr Stephen Onwurah, Chi Blackwood, Nicola Davis, rh Mr David Heyes, David Osborne, Sandra Blunt, Mr Crispin de Bois, Nick Hillier, Meg Owen, Albert Boles, Nick Dinenage, Caroline Hilling, Julie Paisley, Ian Bone, Mr Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hodge, rh Margaret Pearce, Teresa Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Perkins, Toby Bradley, Karen Dorries, Nadine Hood, Mr Jim Pound, Stephen Brady, Mr Graham Doyle-Price, Jackie Hopkins, Kelvin Qureshi, Yasmin Brake, rh Tom Drax, Richard Hosie, Stewart Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bray, Angie Duddridge, James Hunt, Tristram Reed, Mr Jamie Brazier, Mr Julian Duncan Smith, rh Mr Irranca-Davies, Huw Reeves, Rachel Bridgen, Andrew Iain Jackson, Glenda Reynolds, Emma Brine, Mr Steve Dunne, Mr Philip James, Mrs Siân Reynolds, Jonathan Brokenshire, James Ellis, Michael C. Riordan, Mrs Linda Brooke, Annette Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, Angus Browne, Mr Jeremy Elphicke, Charlie Jarvis, Dan Robertson, John Bruce, Fiona Eustice, George Johnson, rh Alan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bruce, rh Malcolm Evans, Graham Johnson, Diana Rotheram, Steve Buckland, Mr Robert Evans, Jonathan Jones, Graham Roy, Mr Frank Burley, Mr Aidan Evennett, Mr David Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Burns, Conor Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Kevan Ruane, Chris Burns, rh Mr Simon Fallon, Michael Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Burrowes, Mr David Field, Mr Mark 449 Jobs and Growth 12 OCTOBER 2011 450

Foster, rh Mr Don Kawczynski, Daniel Pawsey, Mark Stunell, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark Kelly, Chris Penning, Mike Sturdy, Julian Freer, Mike Kirby, Simon Penrose, John Swales, Ian Fullbrook, Lorraine Knight, rh Mr Greg Percy, Andrew Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Fuller, Richard Kwarteng, Kwasi Perry, Claire Swinson, Jo Gale, Mr Roger Laing, Mrs Eleanor Phillips, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Garnier, Mark Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Syms, Mr Robert Gauke, Mr David Latham, Pauline Pincher, Christopher Tapsell, rh Sir Peter George, Andrew Laws, rh Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Teather, Sarah Gibb, Mr Nick Leadsom, Andrea Pugh, John Thurso, John Gilbert, Stephen Lee, Jessica Raab, Mr Dominic Timpson, Mr Edward Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lee, Dr Phillip Redwood, rh Mr John Tomlinson, Justin Glen, John Lefroy, Jeremy Rees-Mogg, Jacob Tredinnick, David Goldsmith, Zac Leigh, Mr Edward Reevell, Simon Truss, Elizabeth Goodwill, Mr Robert Leslie, Charlotte Reid, Mr Alan Turner, Mr Andrew Gove, rh Michael Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Tyrie, Mr Andrew Graham, Richard Lewis, Brandon Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Uppal, Paul Grant, Mrs Helen Lewis, Dr Julian Robertson, Hugh Vara, Mr Shailesh Gray, Mr James Liddell-Grainger, Mr Robertson, Mr Laurence Vickers, Martin Green, Damian Ian Rosindell, Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Greening, Justine Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rudd, Amber Walker, Mr Charles Griffiths, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Ruffley, Mr David Walker, Mr Robin Gummer, Ben Lopresti, Jack Russell, Bob Wallace, Mr Ben Gyimah, Mr Sam Lord, Jonathan Rutley, David Walter, Mr Robert Hague, rh Mr William Loughton, Tim Sandys, Laura Ward, Mr David Halfon, Robert Luff, Peter Scott, Mr Lee Watkinson, Angela Hames, Duncan Main, Mrs Anne Selous, Andrew Weatherley, Mike Hammond, rh Mr Philip May, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant Webb, Steve Hammond, Stephen Maynard, Paul Sharma, Alok Wharton, James Hancock, Matthew McCartney, Jason Shelbrooke, Alec Wheeler, Heather Hancock, Mr Mike McCartney, Karl Shepherd, Mr Richard White, Chris Hands, Greg McIntosh, Miss Anne Simmonds, Mark Whittaker, Craig Harper, Mr Mark McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Skidmore, Chris Wiggin, Bill Harris, Rebecca McPartland, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Willetts, rh Mr David Hart, Simon McVey, Esther Smith, Henry Williams, Mr Mark Harvey, Nick Mensch, Louise Smith, Julian Williams, Roger Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Menzies, Mark Smith, Sir Robert Williams, Stephen Hayes, Mr John Mercer, Patrick Soames, rh Nicholas Williamson, Gavin Heald, Oliver Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna Willott, Jenny Heath, Mr David Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Wilson, Mr Rob Heaton-Harris, Chris Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hemming, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stanley, rh Sir John Wright, Simon Henderson, Gordon Moore, rh Michael Stephenson, Andrew Yeo, Mr Tim Hendry, Charles Mordaunt, Penny Stevenson, John Young, rh Sir George Hinds, Damian Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Bob Zahawi, Nadhim Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Iain Hollingbery, George Morris, James Streeter, Mr Gary Tellers for the Noes: Hollobone, Mr Philip Mosley, Stephen Stride, Mel Norman Lamb and Holloway, Mr Adam Mowat, David Stuart, Mr Graham Jeremy Wright Hopkins, Kris Mulholland, Greg Horwood, Martin Mundell, rh David Question accordingly negatived. Howarth, Mr Gerald Munt, Tessa Howell, John Murray, Sheryll Hughes, rh Simon Murrison, Dr Andrew Business without Debate Huhne, rh Chris Neill, Robert Huppert, Dr Julian Newton, Sarah Hurd, Mr Nick Nokes, Caroline BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Jackson, Mr Stewart Norman, Jesse Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing James, Margot Nuttall, Mr David Orders Nos. 15 and 41A), Javid, Sajid Offord, Mr Matthew That, at this day’s sitting, proceedings on the Motion in the Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ollerenshaw, Eric name of Sir George Young relating to Business of the House Johnson, Gareth Osborne, rh Mr George (17 October) may be proceeded with, though opposed, until any Johnson, Joseph Ottaway, Richard hour, and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not Jones, Andrew Paice, rh Mr James apply.—(Bill Wiggin.) Jones, Mr David Parish, Neil Question agreed to. Jones, Mr Marcus Paterson, rh Mr Owen 451 12 OCTOBER 2011 Business of the House (17 October) 452

Business of the House (17 October) I have to say that if the House were unable to agree to this motion this evening, that is exactly the impression 7.15 pm that would be given. I want to avoid that, which is why I commend the motion to the House. The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I beg to move, 7.18 pm That, at the sitting on Monday 17 October, notwithstanding Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I Standing Order No. 14(3A) (Arrangement of public business), support the Deputy Leader of the House’s comments, the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of the and I want to remind the House that it should bear in proceedings on the Motion in the name of Sir George Young mind when making its decision on the motion how it relating to the Parliamentary Contributory Pension Fund not later than two hours after the commencement of proceedings on will look to the country. Do parliamentarians want to the Motion; and such Questions shall include the Questions on give the impression that they are more interested in any Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be their personal financial interests—their pensions, no moved. less—than in the issues that concern the people they I do not want to detain the House any longer than represent? Do Members of the House want to be seen necessary on this issue. The motion provides for two to be gazing at their own navels at the expense of doing hours of debate on the Government motion on pensions their proper job, which is to respond to the issues that on Monday. It provides certainty for the House, and it is matter to the people we represent? The Hillsborough necessary as the day is being shared with a debate disaster is pertinent not only to the people of Liverpool, scheduled by the Backbench Business Committee on Sheffield and Nottingham. Those who have signed the the Hillsborough disaster. That is the first debate in this petition want justice for the 96 who died and for their Chamber that has resulted from the new e-petition families, and in that sense it is relevant to every Member system introduced by the Government. of the House. I urge colleagues to support the motion tabled in the name of the Leader of the House. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Would it not Question put and agreed to. be better to protect the Hillsborough debate by stating that there should be a minimum of three hours for it, so that it could go beyond the moment of interruption? BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (13 OCTOBER) Otherwise, if there are statements or urgent questions Motion made, on Monday, the Hillsborough debate could be squeezed to one and a half hours. That, at the sitting on Thursday 13 October— (1) the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of Mr Heath: I have to say that I believe the programme proceedings on the Motions in the name of Mr Greg Knight motion does provide the required protection. It is a relating to Hand-held Electronic Devices in the Chamber, Select Committee Amendments, Explanatory Statements on Amendments sensible procedural motion, and it is my great regret to Bills, and Written Parliamentary Questions not later than one that we have to debate it at any length this evening. The and a half hours after their commencement; and such Questions mood of the House was apparent last night during the shall include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the various points of order on this matter. The debate on Speaker which may then be moved; the Hillsborough disaster was supported by nearly (2) proceedings on the Motion in the name of Mr Greg Knight 100 Members of the House when presented to the on Ministerial Statements may continue until three hours after Backbench Business Committee. It also has the support commencement of proceedings on the Motions specified in paragraph of more than 139,000 members of the public who (1), and shall then lapse if not previously disposed of.—(Bill signed the e-petition supporting the debate. Members Wiggin.) of the House have been liaising with the many hundreds of people who intend to travel to London on Monday Hon. Members: Object. to listen to the debate, many of whom will be bereaved families of those who lost their lives in the tragedy. The hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve ADJOURNMENT Rotheram) asked a question of the Prime Minister Resolved, That this House do now adjourn.—(Bill earlier today. He said: Wiggin.) “Does he understand that the perception out there in the real world is that some MPs would rather talk about their own 7.20 pm pensions than discuss a 22-year-old injustice and the deaths of 96 men, women and children?” House adjourned. 453 12 OCTOBER 2011 Deferred Division 454

Deferred Division Harrington, Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny TRIBUNALS AND INQUIRIES Harvey, Nick Morgan, Nicky That the draft First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, Anne Marie Chamber) Fees Order 2011, which was laid before this House on Hayes, Mr John Morris, James 12 July, be approved. Heald, Oliver Mosley, Stephen The House divided: Ayes 309, Noes 20. Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Heaton-Harris, Chris Mulholland, Greg Division No. 364] Hemming, John Munt, Tessa Henderson, Gordon Murray, Sheryll AYES Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Adams, Nigel Colvile, Oliver Hermon, Lady Neill, Robert Afriyie, Adam Crabb, Stephen Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Aldous, Peter Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Amess, Mr David Davies, Glyn Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Andrew, Stuart de Bois, Nick Holloway, Mr Adam Norman, Jesse Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Dinenage, Caroline Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Bacon, Mr Richard Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Horwood, Martin O’Brien, Mr Stephen Baker, Steve Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Howell, John Offord, Mr Matthew Baldry, Tony Dorries, Nadine Hughes, rh Simon Ollerenshaw, Eric Baldwin, Harriett Doyle-Price, Jackie Huhne, rh Chris Osborne, rh Mr George Barclay, Stephen Drax, Richard Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Ottaway, Richard Barker, Gregory Duddridge, James Huppert, Dr Julian Paice, rh Mr James Baron, Mr John Duncan Smith, rh Mr Hurd, Mr Nick Parish, Neil Barwell, Gavin Iain James, Margot Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bebb, Guto Dunne, Mr Philip Javid, Sajid Pawsey, Mark Beith, rh Sir Alan Ellis, Michael Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike Bellingham, Mr Henry Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John Benyon, Richard Ellwood, Mr Tobias Johnson, Joseph Percy, Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Berry, Jake Eustice, George Jones, Mr David Pincher, Christopher Bingham, Andrew Evans, Graham Jones, Mr Marcus Poulter, Dr Daniel Binley, Mr Brian Evans, Jonathan Kawczynski, Daniel Pugh, John Birtwistle, Gordon Evennett, Mr David Kelly, Chris Raab, Mr Dominic Blackwood, Nicola Fabricant, Michael Kirby, Simon Redwood, rh Mr John Blunt, Mr Crispin Fallon, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Rees-Mogg, Jacob Boles, Nick Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Reevell, Simon Bone, Mr Peter Field, Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Reid, Mr Alan Bottomley, Sir Peter Foster, rh Mr Don Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bradley, Karen Francois, rh Mr Mark Latham, Pauline Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Brady, Mr Graham Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Robertson, Hugh Brake, rh Tom Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Robertson, Mr Laurence Bray, Angie Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Rosindell, Andrew Brazier, Mr Julian Gale, Mr Roger Lefroy, Jeremy Rudd, Amber Bridgen, Andrew Garnier, Mark Leslie, Charlotte Ruffley, Mr David Brine, Mr Steve Gauke, Mr David Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Russell, Bob Brokenshire, James George, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura Brooke, Annette Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Scott, Mr Lee Browne, Mr Jeremy Gilbert, Stephen Ian Selous, Andrew Bruce, Fiona Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shannon, Jim Bruce, rh Malcolm Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Shapps, rh Grant Buckland, Mr Robert Goldsmith, Zac Lord, Jonathan Sharma, Alok Burley, Mr Aidan Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Sheerman, Mr Barry Burns, Conor Graham, Richard Luff, Peter Shelbrooke, Alec Burns, rh Mr Simon Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Burrowes, Mr David Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Simmonds, Mark Burstow, Paul Grayling, rh Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Simpson, David Burt, Lorely Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith Byles, Dan Greening, Justine McCartney, Jason Skidmore, Chris Cairns, Alun Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Smith, Miss Chloe Cameron, rh Mr David Griffiths, Andrew McCrea, Dr William Smith, Henry Campbell, Mr Gregory Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Julian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hague, rh Mr William McPartland, Stephen Soubry, Anna Carmichael, Neil Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Cash, Mr William Hames, Duncan Mensch, Louise Spencer, Mr Mark Chishti, Rehman Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Stephenson, Andrew Clappison, Mr James Hancock, Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Clark, rh Greg Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, Maria Stewart, Bob Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hands, Greg Mills, Nigel Stewart, Iain Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Stewart, Rory 455 Deferred Division12 OCTOBER 2011 Deferred Division 456

Streeter, Mr Gary Vickers, Martin Wilson, Mr Rob Wright, Simon Stride, Mel Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wilson, Sammy Young, rh Sir George Stunell, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Zahawi, Nadhim Sturdy, Julian Wallace, Mr Ben Wright, Jeremy Swales, Ian Walter, Mr Robert Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Ward, Mr David NOES Swinson, Jo Watkinson, Angela Swire, rh Mr Hugo Weatherley, Mike Campbell, Mr Ronnie MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Syms, Mr Robert Webb, Steve Cooper, Rosie McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Wharton, James Corbyn, Jeremy McDonnell, John Teather, Sarah Wheeler, Heather Durkan, Mark Ritchie, Ms Margaret Thurso, John White, Chris Edwards, Jonathan Robertson, Angus Timpson, Mr Edward Whittaker, Craig Flynn, Paul Skinner, Mr Dennis Tomlinson, Justin Wiggin, Bill Greatrex, Tom Weir, Mr Mike Tredinnick, David Willetts, rh Mr David Hosie, Stewart Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Turner, Mr Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Williams, Hywel Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Lucas, Caroline Wishart, Pete Uppal, Paul Williams, Stephen Vaizey, Mr Edward Williamson, Gavin Question accordingly agreed to. Vara, Mr Shailesh Willott, Jenny

73WH 12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 74WH

diagnosis is necessary. At the most recent meeting, we Westminster Hall heard again from women from throughout the UK about their experiences. At the most recent reception, Wednesday 12 October 2011 four women gave personal accounts of their problems, which motivated me to bid for this debate. I am grateful [ANDREW ROSINDELL in the Chair] to have been given that opportunity. Ovarian cancer is not rare. It is the fourth most Ovarian Cancer common cause of cancer death in women after breast, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting lung and bowel cancers. Every year, some 6,500 women be now adjourned.—(Mr Newmark.) are diagnosed and, staggeringly, 4,400 die every year. Just 36% of women who are diagnosed survive for a 9.30 am further five years. Those figures are staggering, compared Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): It is a pleasure to with more than 80% for those who suffer breast cancer. serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. It has It is also staggering that in three quarters of women been a good many years since I last did so, when I was who are diagnosed, the cancer has already started to chairman of the Welsh Young Conservatives and you spread. Those figures are scary. were chairman of the national Young Conservatives. I The holding of this debate prompted someone to am grateful for the opportunity to raise this important contact me this week. They wrote: subject. I am conscious that many hon. Members wish “My mother died aged 67 in 2009 with Ovarian Cancer. By the to contribute, many of whom have personal and time she was diagnosed, the cancer wasn’t in the early stages and constituency experience of the disease. It is important she was given only a 2% chance of living for 5 years. She fought to hear from as many of them as possible, so I shall all the way with various treatments and lived for 7 years after diagnosis.” make my opening comments as brief as I can. My personal experience of the effects of ovarian Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the cancer occurred some 40 years ago, and it meant that I hon. Gentleman on raising the issue. As he rightly said, never knew my grandmother. In her 50s, she suffered every one of us can relate to a constituent or family from the disease, which sadly took her life in my first member with the disease, and most people are aware year of life. She was buried on my first birthday. Clearly, that the cancer is hereditary or genetic. Does he believe at that age I was too young to know, but she was, by all that whenever someone is diagnosed with ovarian cancer accounts, a truly wonderful lady and, due to the cruel there should be immediate checks on other family nature of the disease, her death was a loss that impacted members—sisters, nieces, and daughters—to ensure that on my family for many years. the hereditary effect is not passed on? Does he believe Some 40 years on, I was elected a Member of Parliament that that should be done quickly after diagnosis? in 2010, and like all new MPs, I am sure, I felt somewhat Stuart Andrew: I am grateful for that intervention. I overwhelmed when I came to this place. What staggered agree absolutely that anything we can do to ensure early me more than anything was the volume of invitations diagnosis of conditions can only help. In the long term, that I received from many different charities. One stood it is better for the individual concerned, and certainly out—that from Target Ovarian Cancer. It stood out better for the rest of the family, who go through equal because it informed me that a constituent would be concern. attending a reception, and because of the impact that the disease had had on my family. David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate I worked in the charity sector for 16 years and, as I the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Not long was involved in politics, I thought I knew how to get to ago in my constituency, we ran an event to raise money Members of Parliament, but I realised how wrong I was for ovarian cancer treatment. An astounding finding when I saw the volume of correspondence that I received. was the number of young women aged 18 to 25 who are I thought it clever of Target Ovarian Cancer to make its affected. I was astonished, because my impression had invitation personal by bringing a constituent down here. been that the disease affected older women, but it seems In June, I attended that reception, and had the opportunity to be on the rise among younger women and is known to meet my constituent, Chris Shagouri. She is one of as the silent killer. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that those people with whom one instantly clicks; she is early intervention is vital? That could be done with inspirational. I listened to her speak about how late blood tests, which some GPs have called for, and perhaps diagnosis of the cancer had impacted on her, her husband in schools, to identify this tragic killer of women. and her family. She talked about her ongoing battle to Stuart Andrew: The hon. Gentleman makes an important keep the disease at bay, and it is clear that she has great point. I will talk about early diagnosis, which is crucial, determination, but it was easy to wonder how much as is awareness—making people aware of the symptoms. easier it might have been had the diagnosis been made That is crucial in the campaign to fight this terrible earlier. disease. As the reception continued, I heard, time and again, I return to the letter that I was quoting from, which is moving stories from other women about their experiences. relevant to the point that the hon. Gentleman made: That and Chris’s persuasive manner convinced me to “I really hope the message regarding this disease can increase, support the all-party group on ovarian cancer, which as I wouldn’t want anyone else to suffer as my mother did. If she was being set up. had gone to her GP straight away when she presented with Sadly, diary clashes have restricted the number of symptoms and the GP acted straight away, then she may still be meetings that I have been able to attend, but it is with her family, who miss her so much.” impressive that they are regularly attended by women That is a powerful testament to the problem that the who reinforce over and again the message that early disease causes. 75WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 76WH

[Stuart Andrew] and their families following diagnosis? A close relative of mine was diagnosed with the condition, but there According to figures from the National Cancer was a lack of knowledge of where to find more information Intelligence Network, only pancreatic cancer involves a about it. That led me and others to look online at a higher proportion of people diagnosed with the late condition that was similar, but had a very different stage of the disease. but with ovarian cancer, unlike five-year survival rate. That caused a lot of unnecessary pancreatic cancer, we know what the symptoms are. anguish to close family members. That was not always the case. The hon. Gentleman referred to it as the silent killer, which is often how it is Stuart Andrew: My hon. Friend raises a valid point. I referred to, but in most cases the symptoms go unrecognised worked in the hospice movement for about 15 years, for some time by the women or their GPs. It is alarming and time and again we heard from parents of children that Target Ovarian Cancer has found that one third of at the hospice or patients in the adult hospice that when women waited six months or more after visiting their they were told of their disease, they almost went blank; GP for a correct diagnosis. That is staggering. they heard not the rest of the information, but just the The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence dreaded diagnosis. It is crucial that people are given as has published guidance on the recognition and initial much information as possible to take away and digest management of ovarian cancer, and listed symptoms later. such as persistent bloating or increased abdominal size, As I said, 76% of women recognise the most common abdominal or pelvic pain, difficulty eating and feeling symptom of breast cancer, but there is clearly a lack of full quickly, and the need to urinate more frequently. If understanding about the significance of symptoms that women experience such symptoms frequently, particularly they may experience due to ovarian cancer. Furthermore, more than 12 times a month, they should undergo tests. GPs are not picking up the disease quickly enough. Just 22% of women are urgently referred to the two-week Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): Under NICE cancer referral route, and the rest are either sent away, guidelines, the first thing that should be done is a CA or treated or referred inappropriately. Late diagnosis 125 test. Is the hon. Gentleman concerned that there are has been identified by the cancer benchmarking study, apparently restrictions on a GP’s ability to obtain that funded by the Department of Health, as a key driver for test for their patients, and importantly that there have the poor ovarian cancer survival rates. That study seeks been attempts block those tests from being carried to understand the differing survival rates between countries through to pathology laboratories? The CA 125 test is for breast, lung, bowel and ovarian cancer. For some the one thing that can spot the disease and increase the reason, despite the findings, ovarian cancer was the possibility of early diagnosis and greater chances of only cancer in the study not to be included in subsequent success. awareness campaigns. A large majority of women who Stuart Andrew: I am grateful for that intervention, are diagnosed in the later stages of the disease will which proves the need for the debate. I hope that we can experience recurrences, and many will develop resistance take forward many of the issues raised today to try to to chemotherapy. tackle the disease. The hon. Gentleman’s point is incredibly My constituent, Chris Shagouri, is undergoing treatment valid and important. yet again to try to slow the progress of the disease. Her NICE’s information is a step forward because it strength and commitment to help to improve the lives offers women, and importantly GPs, the chance to of women who are diagnosed with ovarian cancer is distinguish between ovarian cancer and more common amazing, especially when she could be forgiven for but less serious conditions such as irritable bowel syndrome, wanting to concentrate her efforts on herself and her which is the most common misdiagnosis. The ovarian close family. Chris Shagouri is representative of the cancer awareness measure, which is an accredited tool many women who have attended meetings of the all-party used by Target Ovarian Cancer in its pathfinder study, group on ovarian cancer, and who share a determination showed that only 4% of women felt confident of spotting to change the status quo. They often say that if just one the symptoms of the disease, and just 9% were aware woman gets a quicker diagnosis it will have been worth that persistent bloating is the most common symptom it, because for that woman this really is a matter of life of ovarian cancer. Compare that with 76% of women and death. I hope that we can reach a better total than who recognise that a lump is the most common symptom just one woman. of breast cancer. Treatments for ovarian cancer are highly intensive and invasive. An American study showed that, compared Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Does the hon. with women who have breast cancer, those with ovarian Gentleman agree that because of the specificity of the cancer spend nearly 10 times as long being treated in symptoms of ovarian cancer, there is a case for a hospital in the first year after diagnosis and the last year specific campaign to raise awareness of the disease, of life. There have been no new life extending treatments rather than relying on a generic campaign, which is the for women with ovarian cancer during the past 20 years. approach the Government have tended to favour so far? Why do members of the all-party group on ovarian Stuart Andrew: The hon. Gentleman is in danger of cancer want to have this debate? Because we feel that, stealing my thunder, but I am glad that he has emphasised right now, an important opportunity to make much my point before I have made it. needed progress is being overlooked. I welcome the Government’s work, and commend them for it, with Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I congratulate the cancer drug fund and the palliative care strategy my hon. Friend on bringing this important matter —it was long overdue. In January, the Government before the House. He is right to highlight awareness, but published their new cancer strategy, which contained a there is also the need for better information for women strong commitment to improving early diagnosis and 77WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 78WH a multimillion pound investment in cancer awareness quicker than that. It was this time of day on a Wednesday. campaigns—fantastic stuff. It initially included regional The day before, we had lost, by just three votes, a breast, lung and bowel cancer campaigns, and recently cross-party vote on an 80% elected House of Lords. we have heard that a national bowel cancer awareness Those three votes were hon. Gentlemen who had had programme will be rolled out next year, following the too good a dinner. I was trying to do press and so on success of the pilots. New campaigns on oesophogastric about the House of Lords vote. I was trying to get cancers, and kidney or bladder cancer, will be run at a across the point that a majority of the House of Commons local level. The all-party group remains frustrated that thought that we should have an 80% elected House of ovarian cancer is not included in that admirable work. Lords, but some hon. Members went in the wrong door The Government are committed to saving more than because they cannot manage when they do not have 5,000 lives a year from cancer by 2014-15, and women Whips telling them where to go. Those calls were interrupted with ovarian cancer could represent 10% of that figure. by a telephone call from St Thomas’ hospital, which Each year, up to 500 women lose their lives unnecessarily said, “We have a cancellation. Can you come in today?” to ovarian cancer because we do not do as well as other I burst into tears. Then I went to the Army & Navy European countries. The Government’s study showed Stores and bought a nightie and a pair of slippers and that late diagnosis is a key driver of deaths from ovarian set off to St Thomas’ hospital. cancer in the UK, and it is curious that the condition As can be imagined, I arrived at the hospital not with was not included in the awareness campaigns in this my head in the place where a cancer patient needs it to country. be, but still trying to sort everything out, because although Why can an awareness campaign on ovarian cancer I had known that I was to have the operation, it was not be started now, even in pilot form? We applaud the originally to take place about two weeks after the House Minister for the commitment to improve people’s chances of Lords vote that I was working towards. So I arrived of surviving cancer, but urge him to include ovarian all shouty and dictating things, putting out press releases, cancer in the awareness work that is being done. Every bellowing into a phone and so on. I was put in my bed day we wait, another one or two women, like my and was still shouting down the phone, but then this grandmother or such as Chris Shagouri, and many woman came up to me, took my hand and put it in a others who have been campaigning will lose their lives bowl. I was on the phone and I said to her, “What are unnecessarily. As a matter of urgency, I ask the Minister you doing?” She said, “I’m giving you a manicure.” I whether he will consider an awareness campaign, and said, “Why?” She said, “I’m a volunteer. I come into the whether he will meet with representatives from the women’s ward in St Thomas’ hospital on a Wednesday all-party group on ovarian cancer to discuss how we can and give women manicures.” I have told the Minister take such a campaign forward and stop other women that story because that volunteer helped me through the suffering in future. experience, as I stopped being an MP and started facing being a patient. I strongly urge the Minister to recognise how powerful such roles, which do not look clinically 9.49 am essential, are in the care of people. That is my first Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I should start this message. speech by telling the House that I should be dead, My second message is that my story tells us how good because only two out of every five women with ovarian the NHS can be—how fast it can respond. In my case, it cancer survive beyond four years and my cancer was was eight to 10 weeks between first going to the GP—and diagnosed eight years ago, at the start of 2003. I remember not reporting the right symptoms—and having an the dates well. Throughout that autumn term, I had operation. One cannot ask for better than that. I know been on a very serious diet. As hon. Members know, I that a big reason for it was the targets that we had set, need to do that, and I was completely unaware that the because when I was told when my operation would take loss of appetite that was caused by my cancer was being place, the consultant said to me, “Oh, I’m bumping up helpful to my dieting. At the end of that autumn term, I against the date.” I therefore urge the Minister both to went to see my GP about symptoms that actually were look after the role of volunteers and voluntary organisations irrelevant to the cancer, but she is a very insightful and to retain those targets that put pressure on the woman. She took a very careful history from me and system to help people like me to live. did a CA 125 test. This was about December. She referred me and I did the CA 125 test. I remember the Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate dates fairly well because it was just before I went away my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) for a Christmas holiday. The level was elevated. Of on initiating this important debate. Does the hon. Member course, I had no idea how significant that was. I cannot for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) agree that although it is remember what it was at that point—45 or something wonderful that she had such rapid access to treatment, like that. I said, “Is that serious?” She said, “Well, yes.” I such access to diagnosis is not uniformly available did not quite work out how serious it was, but she had throughout the country? My experience is that it is referred me to a specialist. I came back from my Christmas difficult for general practitioners to gain rapid access to holiday and had an intravaginal ultrasound in January. ultrasound scans, which was a crucial factor in the hon. I went to see the doctor about the results and was told Lady’s diagnosis. Equally, access to CA 125 measurements, on, I think, 15 January that I was going to have a although included in the NICE draft guidelines, which hysterectomy in an operation that might be related to is welcome, is not uniformly available to GPs throughout cancer on 14 February—not a date one forgets. the country. Although I was late detecting the symptoms and, Fiona Mactaggart: The fact that those things are not indeed, the symptoms that I went to see my GP about accessible is condemning women to die. It is very simple, were not symptoms caused by my cancer, it was a very and they are not complicated tests. I have had an awful short time before I had an intervention. In fact, it was lot of CA 125 tests because women have a lot before 79WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 80WH

[Fiona Mactaggart] action? If men had it too, we might be doing better, although, of course, we have a good history on breast and a lot afterwards to see what is happening to the cancer. markers in their blood. It is a very simple test and I worry that ovarian cancer is being put in the “too certainly should be available in primary care so that difficult” box, and it is not acceptable to do that with GPs can do it quickly and reassure themselves and their the most fatal gynaecological cancer. Ovarian cancer patients. It was thanks to Ovacome that I began to kills four times as many women as cervical cancer, for realise how important knowing one’s CA 125 level is. which we have a national screening programme. Is it not Until I started reading the educative materials produced time that we put in place a national screening programme by voluntary organisations, I did not know that. for ovarian cancer and gave GPs and others proper access to diagnostic tests that will save thousands of I want to say one thing about all the voluntary help women’s lives? It is not acceptable that so many women available to people with cancer. It is very confusing. die of this cancer when we know how to stop it, and I People never really know who does the thing that they urge the Minister quickly to put in train action to deal need—who provides the help. Today, the question might with this issue. be, “Should I wear a wig, or are they all horrible and uncomfortable?” The answer is yes, by the way. It might be, “Do I need someone to hold my hand and explain 10 am what’s wrong with me?” People do not know these Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): It is a pleasure to things. I wish that somehow all the wonderful charities follow such a powerful speech. I pay tribute to my hon. could get together and have one doorway through which Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew). We the patient goes and can say, “This is what my life’s like. have worked together before, and he is getting quite a I can’t afford to park at the hospital” or “The wig that I reputation for calling good debates in this place. I pay got is itching” or “Is my reaction to chemotherapy tribute to him for bringing this issue before us. appropriate? Do other people have it?” Who are the Like my hon. Friend, I come to the House with many right people to help? People in this situation never know experiences, which have shaped my life thus far. Cancer— who the right people are, so one thing that I wish the not just ovarian cancer—has touched my life many Department of Health would do is find some way of times, and I have fought it many times. So far, it has won resourcing those organisations to provide a better entry more times than I have, and such experiences shape the to their services for people with cancer. work I do in the House. However, I want to focus on diagnosis and helping In the next few minutes, I will not rehearse the people to detect their symptoms early. I did not detect arguments we have heard or repeat the statistics that my mine particularly early; indeed, it was my GP who hon. Friend set out, but I will reinforce some of the detected them, not me. Many hon. Members have written things that have been said. Clearly, the most effective to the Minister, and at the annual general meeting of way of promoting awareness and understanding of the the all-party group in July we considered the response symptoms of ovarian cancer is to raise its public profile, that he had sent us. Frankly, to me, it seems that the and I hope that this debate will, if nothing else, go some message is not getting through. The work being done to way towards doing that. improve early diagnosis of cancer, particularly awareness, I am a member of the all-party group and I pay great will not make a difference to the women who have tribute to Target Ovarian Cancer and cancer charities ovarian cancer. I am very glad to receive an account of generally, which do such an excellent job on this issue. I, the work being done on breast, lung and bowel cancer, too, have been struck by how effective they are as a but frankly it is a bit insensitive. Someone who is lobby and by how powerful they are; the fact that so concerned about ovarian cancer will see all those wonderful many Members of the House are here today and that so information campaigns on other cancers, but none of many are interested in this issue is testament to that. them applies to the symptoms of ovarian cancer. That I thought I would give Members a few reflections on will not do, and it particularly will not do when ovarian my role as co-chair of the all-party group on breast cancer is such a killer. cancer. I hope that is not insensitive; it is meant to be In the letter to the all-party group, the Minister said helpful, because there are really powerful lessons to be that learned from the fight against breast cancer, and I hope that they can help women with ovarian cancer. “future activity will depend on the success of the Be Clear on Thirty years ago, the breast cancer survival rate in Cancer campaigns”. this country was barely 50%; today, it is more than 80%. His Department has since announced that following the My goodness, that is testament to the effort that has success of the regional pilot campaign for bowel cancer, been made. There have been many debates in the House, it will be rolled out nationally. Now that we know that which have played a tiny role. There has also been those awareness campaigns work, when will we have a funding, and large amounts of research and expertise commitment to work on ovarian cancer? We have extended have been applied to the issue. Awareness, too, has been the work to include stomach, oesophageal, bladder and critical. Similarly, there have been new treatments and a kidney cancer. Why not ovarian cancer? It was not until screening programme. All those things have made a long after I had had a hysterectomy, chemotherapy and difference, and they have all been essential to the significant so on that I realised which of the symptoms that I had progress we have achieved. had were clues to my cancer. We really must help people What has been key, however, has been the number of to know that they are at risk. Ovarian cancer is the women who have been prepared to stand up and put fourth most common cause of cancer death in women. their personal experiences on the record to keep breast Is it just because it affects women that we are not seeing cancer high on the nation’s agenda. Obviously, there 81WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 82WH have also been some high-profile deaths. There are so Notwithstanding the connection between the familial many to list, but what struck me, and it is often quoted, forms of breast and ovarian cancer, which share the was when Linda McCartney lost her fight against the same defective genes to some extent, the age profile of disease. So many women had grown up with the the women affected is broadly similar, although, as the McCartneys, and her death did so much to place breast hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) rightly cancer on the agenda. said, a striking number of younger women are affected by ovarian cancer. In that respect, I received the briefing Breast cancer ambassadors continue to play a crucial from the Teenage Cancer Trust, which was very powerful. role in raising awareness by sharing their personal experiences and promoting cancer campaigns in their It is not inconceivable that the same women who take local areas, as well as nationally, through the national on board the messaging about breast cancer symptoms media and through this place. That really brings home will be open to messaging about ovarian cancer. We are issues of which people might otherwise have remained always told, so it must be true, that women are much unaware. It was not always the case that women immediately more receptive to health messages than men. That is thought a lump might mean breast cancer; that was due absolutely right, so we have an important opportunity to a huge amount of hard work and a huge number of to make significant and potentially life-saving progress. awareness campaigns. The ambassadors really filled the Obviously, there are still huge improvements to make gap effectively, and I hope we can see more of that in in the fight against breast cancer, and that is even truer the fight against ovarian cancer. of the fight against ovarian cancer—particularly in terms of diagnosis and treatment. Like other Members, As a member of the all-party group on ovarian I urge the Minister to take action on ovarian cancer cancer, I know that some representatives of the charities awareness as soon as possible. Currently, we are barely might be thinking that the lack of survivors makes getting past first base. This is a silent killer, but it is also fighting this disease more difficult, but that is a reason a silent national scandal. If we achieved what has been to try harder, not to give up. The lack of survivors achieved in the fight against breast cancer in the past means that people such as the hon. Member for Slough couple of decades through raising awareness, screening (Fiona Mactaggart) and other Members of the House and better treatments, 3,000 of the 4,000 deaths a year who take part in debates such as this are more important from ovarian cancer might not occur. That might have than ever in raising the issue and in keeping it high on saved the grandmother of my hon. Friend the Member the political agenda, and we will raise it again and for Pudsey, and it might have saved mine. again. I ask the Minister please to ensure that the Government The high number of fundraising and public awareness take swift action and make a start on dealing with this drives promoted by the Department that the Minister issue. At the moment, there is little DOH-led activity to represents, as well as politicians’ willingness seriously to improve awareness of symptoms among women and grapple with the issue, have meant that the fight against GPs, despite the fact that the Government have rightly breast cancer has retained its high profile, to the benefit committed themselves to saving the lives of 5,000 cancer of tens of thousands of women and their friends and sufferers a year as part of their excellent cancer strategy. families. Governments have produced very effective I have worked closely with the Minister on the Health awareness campaigns over the years to encourage women and Social Care Bill, and he knows I am a huge supporter regularly to check themselves and to ensure they know of that cancer strategy. With investment of £12 million what they are looking for. The TLC—touch, look, in awareness work towards achieving that pledge, some check—campaign by Breakthrough Breast Cancer, which might describe tackling ovarian cancer as low-hanging Target Ovarian Cancer works closely with, has been fruit. incredibly effective, and TLC day is part of breast The Minister said earlier in the year that the main cancer awareness month, which is this month. That is focus for the Government’s national symptoms awareness another exceptionally powerful way of reminding the campaign would be bowel cancer, but he also stated that public of that issue and of raising awareness of the fight new campaigns were being piloted on other cancers and against breast cancer. their symptoms. I hope that he will update hon. Members Such simple messages, which can be spread through on the progress that his Department has made in piloting the champions I mentioned, can be used successfully the campaigns. Including ovarian cancer in the awareness and powerfully in the fight against ovarian cancer. We budget will help the Government to meet their targets—I can send a bold message that women can fight the am sure of that—while enabling them to improve survival disease and beat it, and the hon. Member for Slough is rates for those with ovarian cancer, which are among wonderful living proof of that. the worst in Europe at the moment. If they improve, the lives of many women can be saved. Many large national studies with large research grants were carried out in years gone by in the fight against Target Ovarian Cancer gave me an excellent booklet, breast cancer, and we need greater commitment and “An MP’s guide to ovarian cancer”, shortly after I was funding for research grants from the Government and elected, and it contains a lovely quotation from a lady charitable bodies at national level in fighting ovarian whom I met at an ovarian cancer reception last year. cancer. By demonstrating the commitment that exists in Her name is Eilish Colclough—I always get it wrong the research community to provide the wherewithal for when I attempt it—and she is a mother of five. We have large studies, huge strides can be made in bringing seen her speak before, and she is fighting terminal ovarian cancer to political and public attention. Perhaps ovarian cancer. She says: the Minister can shed some light on his Department’s “I look at myself as living not dying.” proposals on the future funding and commissioning of Whenever she speaks, and whenever such patients, survivors, studies on the disease. Any information he can share fighters and livers come to speak to the all-party groups with us would be much appreciated. that I am involved in, it is always infinitely more powerful 83WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 84WH

[Mr Steve Brine] As I have said, a gauntlet has been thrown down to the Department. Let us have better national measurement than any Member or Minister. In my experience—and I of outcomes established and followed up—year in, year have had a lot of it, as I have said—people with cancer out—so that the disease, which has been described as a are not just their cancer; they are everything else as well. silent killer, can be properly tackled and we can achieve I hope that we can find many more people such as the same successes as we have with breast, lung and Eilish—survivors—to give more proof of that, to help bowel cancer survival rates. us fight ovarian cancer, and to drive down the number of women we lose to it. 10.15 am Several hon. Members rose— Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Andrew Rosindell (in the Chair): Order. We have 30 Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing the debate. I want minutes left for general debate, so I ask hon. Members to focus on a small area of it, but first I pay tribute to to limit their remarks to no more than five minutes. the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), who gave us a very personal story and identified a key 10.11 am problem—the complexity of the symptoms, the fact that they are sometimes confusing and the general lack Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I, too, congratulate of awareness of what they are. the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing this important debate, which I hope will be a springboard I thank Target Ovarian Cancer for its approach to for increasing awareness and for encouraging the me, which was quite personal. It was one of those Department to pick up the gauntlet set before it today. approaches, which I sometimes receive, that make me In the next 12 months, between 11 and 15 women in think, “Ouch!”. It would have been great if I had been my constituency will die because of ovarian cancer. approached by the Teenage Cancer Trust to be asked to That is not a high or low figure; it is the average across emphasise the number of very young women who suffer, the United Kingdom. We must wake up to the reality but, unfortunately, as I am approaching a large birthday, and that figure must be checked. We must embark Target decided that I was in the key target group of seriously on a national campaign that will achieve better women who really should know more. That is a key survival results, as has happened with major cancers point. When I added in some other risk factors, such as such as breast and lung cancer. lifestyle and weight, I began to scratch my head and think that perhaps I should take it all very seriously and I want to put four important and sobering statistics think more closely about the symptoms that present before the House. Most of the women who are when someone is suffering from ovarian cancer. diagnosed—75%—have late-stage disease, when survival rates are very poor. That is a very high figure. Also, 30% Despite the fact that women tend to be more aware of of women are diagnosed following admission to their symptoms and keener than men to go to the GP—I local accident and emergency ward, not by their GP. apologise, as there are many male MPs present in the Women with ovarian cancer are five times more likely to Chamber—they also have a serious tendency to grin die within a month of diagnosis than women with and bear it, and get on with things. Sadly, symptoms breast cancer, and the UK’s late diagnosis is thought to such as bloating are not uncommon. I see the hon. be the key driver for those survival rates. Only 4% of Member for Slough nodding in agreement. women are confident that they can spot the symptoms We are missing an opportunity, because by the time of ovarian cancer. women get to a significant birthday they are already I have two questions for the Minister. First, why, as well used to some forms of screening for cancer. Great, the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr Brine) said, is next year I get mammograms as well—fantastic. That is there not yet any Department of Health-led activity an opportunity to talk to women about the symptoms to improve awareness of symptoms? That is the key to of ovarian cancer. I do not want to appear controversial addressing the issue. Secondly, I take the view that what or to denigrate the idea that we need a general awareness is not measured is not done, so why is there no national campaign, which is important, but as any good advertising measurement for ovarian cancer? company will explain, a targeted message to the audience likely to be most affected is the best way to get something Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): across. Does my hon. Friend agree that greater awareness and I suggest to the Minister that we need to look at ways early detection were the key to the significant progress to approach the women most likely to be affected. That made with other cancers? Many charities became involved is not in any way intended to undermine the work of the with departmental officials to ensure that those things Teenage Cancer Trust. The incidence in younger women became the driver, which led to reductions in numbers. is important and alarming, but age, genetics and hereditary That is the key for ovarian cancer as well. disposition are the largest contributory factors in ovarian cancer, and we need to give close attention to the idea Ian Paisley: I thank my hon. Friend for making that that when women are called for routine cervical smear point incredibly well. We have all come to realise that tests or mammograms they are in exactly the right there is a lack of awareness because of lobby groups, caring, knowledgeable environment for explaining the patients in our constituencies and the families who symptoms. I hope that the message will get out a little come to see us saying to us, “Why did we not know? If more effectively to those women who are at risk, and we had known, we would have done something else and who could contribute significantly to the Government gone to the GP earlier.” target on reducing deaths from cancer. 85WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 86WH

10.19 am to give assurances that the Government will look into providing a nationwide campaign to help women to Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I, too, congratulate identify symptoms of the cancer and build on the the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing important work that is taking place with other charities. today’s debate. It is good to follow hon. Members who have made powerful and reflective comments. I note that there are two screening trials under way—one for women in the general population, the other for Like other hon. Members, I have a personal interest women with a strong family history in this regard, such in the issue. My mam died from ovarian cancer when as my two sisters. I hope that the evidence from those she was aged just 42, in our hometown of Tredegar in trials will support a national screening programme. As Blaenau Gwent—too, too young. My two sisters were we know, if ovarian cancer can be caught in its earliest just teenagers. I want women in my constituency and stages, survival rates can be above 70%, which is a across the UK to have the best possible treatment if strong stat. We could save the lives of hundreds of they have ovarian cancer today, or the earliest possible women in the UK and save their families from the pain diagnosis if they get it in future. of a premature and preventable death. A comprehensive report on cancer in Wales is published every three years. The latest was published just last Where they live also impacts on the support received month, and there are good stats on Wales that are by women with ovarian cancer. The Minister will be important. The report covers nearly 15 years from 1995 aware of the significant impact of the clinical nurse to 2009, and, as the hon. Member for Pudsey said, it specialists and what they can do to support women with notes that ovarian cancer is the fourth most common ovarian cancer, yet the 2009 Target Ovarian Cancer cancer in females. We have to shout that out loudly pathfinder study showed that many clinical nurse specialist across the UK from here today and hope that it is posts were under threat, with a lack of cover for sickness picked up in other places—it is a powerful statistic. and leave, and with a heavy work load. Many women cited the clinical nurse specialist as the single most As in the rest of the UK, there has been a slight helpful point of contact throughout their cancer journey, decrease in incidence over time, but of the countries yet in large parts of the country the nurses are sole studied, most of which are European, Wales is top of operators, as it has been phrased. Certainly in Wales, we the incidence table. Wales has an incidence rate of 18.8 have experienced difficulty in providing such posts. per 100,000 of population, which is significantly above Elsewhere, I hear of posts being frozen and sometimes the UK average. I know that Wales has a larger older not filled. population than other parts of the UK, which leads to higher levels of cancer, but the particular worry about Finally, while ovarian cancer is noted with respect to ovarian cancer is that women seek medical help only at the lack of available and new drugs, a couple can be a relatively late stage, so the survival rate is poorer than accessed via the cancer drugs fund, but again, where for other gynaecological cancers. The “Cancer in Wales” someone lives determines whether they get access. I report notes: hope that the Minister will give us the assurance that, no matter where a woman lives, she will receive early “There is no clear link with incidence and degree of deprivation” diagnosis and access to the high-quality treatment she but there needs. I hope that I have emphasised the importance of “seems to be a slight trend towards increased survival in patients increased care and support for the large number of with lower levels of deprivation.” women with that terrible condition, which is often fatal, The mean age of diagnosis in Wales is 65.1. but, if caught early, survivable. What has particularly struck me—this has come out in today’s discussion—is that women who often take 10.25 am responsibility for the health care of their families, particularly children, and visit the family GP do not Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): I pay themselves recognise the symptoms of the cancer. In tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey Wales, 29% of the public said that they were not at all (Stuart Andrew) for securing the debate, and to all confident, and a further 29% were not very confident, other colleagues who have contributed. In my patch, in in identifying the symptoms. Together, that makes a the southern end of Cumbria, we have run awareness high 58%. As others have said, only 2% were confident campaigns locally with our general practitioners on the in recognising the symptoms. Public Health Wales is symptoms of ovarian cancer. Most people here have running important public education campaigns on skin, had a tale to tell about how ovarian cancer has touched bowel and mouth cancer, but not, to my knowledge, on them, and my motivation is very personal: my mother ovarian cancer. It is important, again as others have was diagnosed with ovarian cancer in October 2002 and said, that we have a wide public health campaign on the passed away in July 2004. She was one of the 75% of issue. women who are diagnosed at stage 3 or 4. It is depressing I have long experience of working in the voluntary that things have not progressed even since then. I go sector, most recently for the National Society for the back to the cancer strategy and the Government’s Prevention of Cruelty to Children, and, before that, the announcement in January, with clear awareness and Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists. I honesty that we are behind in survival rates for all sorts know that the sector is fertile ground for innovation. of cancers and that lack of awareness and lack of early For example, I understand that some charities in the diagnosis is the common theme in the failure to reach sector have developed training programmes for women targets and save lives. and GPs, including an online symptoms tracker called With regard to lack of awareness and lack of early Ovacome. That will be a good initiative. Such programmes diagnosis, ovarian cancer comes top of a pretty grisly are excellent and clearly show commitment to provide league. It is brilliant that breast, lung and bowel cancer early diagnosis. However, like others, I ask the Minister were included in the awareness programme, but I was 87WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 88WH

[Tim Farron] The recently published report “Cancer in Wales: 1995- 2009”, which my hon. Friend the Member for Blaenau dismayed, as I am sure many others were, to see that Gwent (Nick Smith) mentioned, highlights the fact ovarian cancer was not. My hon. Friend the Member that, on average, 394 women a year have been diagnosed for Winchester (Mr Brine) used the phrase, “low-hanging with ovarian cancer in Wales over that period. The fruit”. If we look at the cold stats on how we can save average number of mortalities due to ovarian cancer lives in big numbers pretty quickly, ovarian cancer is between those years was 237, which translates into potentially the low-hanging fruit. 60.3% of those diagnosed with the disease ending up I will repeat quickly some of the stats already used: dying from it. Such startling statistics demonstrate what 500 women die unnecessarily every year from the disease; all hon. Members have been saying about the lack of a third of cases take longer than six months to be awareness of the symptoms of this disease. diagnosed; and 29% are diagnosed at A and E, which If ovarian cancer mortality rates in this country were shows a complete failure of the pathway. It is the fourth the same as those in other EU countries, we could save biggest killer of women in terms of cancer. Although I 500 lives a year. That statistic on its own should make us am hugely grateful for the stuff from Target Ovarian all sit up and take notice and realise that over many Cancer and other ovarian cancer organisations, I repeat years, not enough has been done to highlight this terrible those stats because my mum found them on the web disease. nearly 10 years ago—and they have not got any flaming We have debated the kind of awareness campaign better! It is utterly depressing that the statistics have not that needs to be run. A generic campaign is clearly not improved in that time. adequate in this case. There needs to be a specific As the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) campaign around ovarian cancer. As other hon. Members rightly pointed out, survival rates are very bad, given have said, only 3% of women recognise that increased what they could be. If women are diagnosed early, abdominal size is potentially a serious symptom of ovarian cancer is relatively easy to cure, with a 70% ovarian cancer. That compares with three-quarters of survival rate. Things are so bad that by investing now, a women who know that a lump in their breast is potentially huge difference will be made, and we will see lives saved a serious symptom of cancer. If educating the public in big numbers in no time. about the symptoms of this disease is important, of equal importance is the need for GPs to consider ovarian As is the case for all people in such circumstances, my cancer as a possibility when patients display the symptoms mum’s ovarian cancer was an appalling family tragedy, which, in many ways, brought us together. She had It has been mentioned already that nearly a third of 20 or 21 months of extremely high-quality life following women who are diagnosed are diagnosed following an her diagnosis, and I pay huge tribute to the Macmillan admission into accident and emergency, which also tells nurses and to Rosemere trust at Preston hospital, who us that there is a serious problem. made her life bearable—indeed, made all our lives bearable, My constituent Hazel Burrows contacted me via her and sometimes even a joy. My mum was aware that granddaughter earlier this year. In her e-mail, Georgette there was a genetic potential, and her concern was for Burrows said: my sister, my sister’s kids and my kids. I would put “Everywhere you look, whether it’s when you’re watching your a plea in, with the other pleas that I will make in a favourite soap opera or doing your weekly shop, there are campaigns moment on behalf of all of us, for effort to be put into for breast cancer, and rightly so. Although I do believe more looking at diagnosis and at the potential for genetically needs to be done in order to make women aware of ovarian tracking the disease early, before it even arises. cancer.” Our collective plea—I do not see any dissent here—is She is right and today’s debate has demonstrated that for the Department of Health to act quickly to make very clearly. the issue a priority and for the Minister to meet Target I will work with my hon. Friend the Member for Ovarian Cancer, the other ovarian cancer charities and Blaenau Gwent in relation to Wales and with Mark members of the all-party group to discuss a practical Drakeford in the Welsh Assembly on this matter. Let strategy, and to invest now in a targeted awareness me say to the Minister that all of us come into politics campaign, without waiting for the results of the diagnostic because, whatever our views, we believe in the possibility test and the trial, which I think will arrive in 2015. Two of changing things for the better. If today’s debate has thousand more women will die unnecessarily if we sit highlighted anything it is that that is possible and that around and wait for that. We need action now, and I we can save people’s lives. Being able to achieve that would like the Minister to undertake to do just that. rests partly with the Minister who is in his seat today. As all former Ministers know—I include my hon. 10.29 am Friend the Member for Slough—we go on in a job for some time, getting our submissions from officials, turning Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I congratulate up at Adjournment debates, reading out the speech that the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing has been provided and then carrying on as before. The this important debate. I am sure that other hon. Members Minister cannot do that after today’s debate. He must will not mind if I also single out my hon. Friend the go back and say to his officials, “I want fresh on my Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), who gave such desk, as soon as possible, a new strategy for raising a personal and passionate speech about how ovarian awareness around ovarian cancer because what we have cancer has affected her. Like so many others here, my now is not good enough.” He has that opportunity to family has been affected by the disease. My first cousin, make a difference. It is a great privilege to be a Minister—I Mary, died in her 30s from ovarian cancer, leaving told myself that every day I walked into my ministerial behind a young son. I am sure that all of us here are office. The Minister has a chance to save people’s lives aware of the impact of this terrible disease. and I hope that he takes that opportunity. 89WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 90WH

10.34 am condition and that it is the fifth most common cancer among UK women. Members have also set out the Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and relatively low survival rates for ovarian cancer—they Lesmahagow) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member are around 40% compared with 79% for breast cancer. for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing today’s debate. That is largely due to the fact that three out of four Before the general election, I met a gentleman called women are diagnosed late, once the cancer has spread. Eddie O’Hara, who lives in East Kilbride, which is part It is worth repeating that survival rates could be as high of my constituency—at least it is until midday today. as 90% if the cancer were diagnosed at an early stage. In Eddie’s wife, Linda, was diagnosed with ovarian cancer Hackney, in east London, the five-year ovarian cancer on Good Friday 2000. Like so many women, the diagnosis survival rate is only 35%, which is significantly below came far too late. I did not have the good fortune to average. meet her, but by all accounts she was a truly gifted and Despite the evidence relating to lack of awareness, inspirational woman. It was in her memory that Eddie the rates of late diagnosis, and the delays in diagnosis O’Hara set up the charity, Ovarian Lets Shout For admissions byA&E,there is still no Department of Linda, to raise awareness of the symptoms and to Health-led activity to improve awareness of symptoms support all those affected by that terrible disease. I among women and GPs. That is despite the Government’s cannot help but feel that those groups that have been set commitment to save 5,000 lives a year from cancer by up to highlight the disease are filling a gap that should 2014. I welcome the new National Institute for Health really be filled by our national health service. and Clinical Excellence guidance on symptoms and the Like the hon. Member for Pudsey, when I was elected increased access to diagnostics that was announced in to Parliament last year, I had to go through a Kilimanjaro- the cancer strategy, which mean that there will be new esque mountain of mail. Underneath the big pile, I opportunities to improve early diagnosis. But unless found an invitation to a Target Ovarian Cancer event. I women know when to visit their GP, unless the symptoms signed up and learned much more about the killer of ovarian cancer become as well known among ordinary disease. People gave all sorts of statistics and views, but women as the symptoms of breast cancer are, and the big one that got me was that 75% of women are unless GPs know how to consider ovarian cancer, rates diagnosed too late. Surely that is the saddest indictment of late diagnosis and levels of delay will not improve. of our health service. Much more needs to be done and, We have already heard, but it is worth repeating, that as hon. Members have outlined, there are different ways there is no national outcome measure for ovarian cancer; in which things can be done. there are only such measures for breast, lung and bowel Let me give a practical example of why we should do cancer. That is already impacting on the ability of PCTs more. I met Eilish Colclough—hopefully I have pronounced and cancer networks to undertake awareness work about her name correctly—at the Target Ovarian Cancer event ovarian cancer, as funding for awareness work is being last year. I do not know whether she will thank me for channelled to breast, lung and bowel cancer. That will saying this but she is a 42-year-old mother of five. In potentially lead to a worsening of the situation, because case she is listening to this debate, I hasten to add that it means in practice that there will be a decline in she looks much younger. She was diagnosed with ovarian activity. cancer when she was 39. She had all the symptoms but her GP dismissed her fears of cancer. The quality standard for ovarian cancer will be one of the first of the new suite of quality standards to be After the TOC event, Eilish and her friends joined me introduced by NICE to inform local commissioners, and some other colleagues on the Terrace because she but as yet it is not clear how the standard can be used did not want to be in the company of the doctors. She effectively.Can the Minister tell us whether the Department preferred to speak to people who were chatting about of Health is considering introducing a national outcome things other than the disease. She explained in stark measure for ovarian cancer? Can he also say how the terms that she did not know how long she would live. Department will ensure that the quality standard is She is still here, and the world is a better place with used effectively? Eilish among us. She is a tireless campaigner. She brought to mind that wonderful quote of Ralph Waldo The Minister will be aware that the first findings of Emerson, who said: the international cancer benchmarking study—a study led by the Department of Health—showed that in the “For every minute you remain angry, you give up sixty seconds of peace of mind.” UK late diagnosis is thought to be a key driver of survival rates, which are poor compared to those in As all the statistics have already been mentioned, let me other countries in the study. However, ovarian cancer is ask the Minister what he is going to do to heighten the only cancer type in the study not to have had awareness and improve treatment so that women across remedial action taken to improve awareness. the United Kingdom do not have to suffer the anguish that Linda did or the anguish that Eilish endures today. The Minister will forgive me when I say that under the last Government we saw substantial investment in cancer services and consequently outcomes improved; 10.37 am for instance, the survival rate for breast cancer rose Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) from 50% to more than 80%. In the case of ovarian (Lab): Let me start by congratulating the hon. Member cancer, although the figures are not necessarily much for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing this important better than they were when the hon. Member for and well-attended debate. Every Member who spoke Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) faced the made an effective and moving speech. However, the issues in relation to his mother, the survival rate has in speech that stands out for me is that of my hon. Friend fact doubled in the past 30 years. The commitment the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). We have shown by the last Labour Government meant that in already heard that ovarian cancer is a very serious excess of 1,000 more women per year in England and 91WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 92WH

[Ms Diane Abbott] 10.46 am

Wales are now surviving ovarian cancer. However, the The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul UK survival rate for ovarian cancer is still among the Burstow): Thank you very much, Mr Rosindell, for lowest in Europe, at 36%. If we achieve the average calling me to speak. European survival rate, we will save 500 lives per year. I assure the hon. Member for Hackney North and All of us, including the Minister, know that two Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) that I have not found my major trials are currently taking place: the first is for last 12 months “humdrum” at all and I agree entirely women in the general population; and the second is for with the comment by the hon. Member for Cardiff West women with a strong family history of ovarian cancer. (Kevin Brennan) that being a Minister is a privilege, The former trial will report in 2015 and the latter trial in and a privilege that one should use fully to serve the 2012. However, it is not at all certain that the findings of common good and the purposes that our constituents those trials will result in a national screening programme. send us here for. Perhaps the Minister can tell the House what the I want to try to do justice to the debate, and if I do Government’s position is on that issue. not cover any issues that have been raised, that will Cancer Research UK tells me that it is concerned that purely be because of time and I will write to hon. the Health and Social Care Bill, which is currently Members about those issues. However, I will try to being debated in another place, risks fragmenting cover as much ground as I can. responsibility for the early diagnosis of cancer between I congratulate the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Public Health England, local authorities and the NHS. Andrew) on securing the debate and congratulate all Cancer Research UK’s proposal for guarding against those who have taken part. I particularly congratulate fragmentation is that local authorities and clinical the all-party group on ovarian cancer, which has done commissioning groups should be jointly incentivised to an excellent job in mobilising colleagues to be here in prioritise early diagnosis, including shared indicators in Westminster Hall today and to be persistent and persuasive the public health and NHS outcomes frameworks. That in their arguments on the issue. process should be supported by shared budgets, to ensure joint responsibility for delivering improvements As others have rightly said, the speech by the hon. in awareness and early diagnosis of cancer. In other Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) was typically words, Cancer Research UK is concerned that policies powerful and typically persuasive. I think that I have and responsibilities around early diagnosis will fall through served in the House as long as the hon. Lady, and the cracks. How will the Minister respond to that proposal during the time that she fought her cancer I certainly by Cancer Research UK? admired the way that she did so while continuing to The Minister will be aware that, earlier this year, at provide the service that she gives to her constituents and the 12th international forum of the Helene Harris Memorial the House. She made a very powerful set of points Trust, which was originated and facilitated by Ovarian today. Cancer Action, 50 of the world’s leading researchers I think that everyone who has spoken in the debate and clinicians in ovarian cancer came together to discuss has been touched by ovarian cancer. I had not planned the future for ovarian cancer research. Out of those to refer to my own experience, but, given that others discussions came nine key actions: improving recognition have talked about their experiences, I will say that my that “ovarian cancer” is a general term; better targeting aunt died of ovarian cancer some years ago. Having of clinical trials; identifying patients at increased genetic fought the disease for some time, she sadly died at the risk; developing new approaches to identify targets for Royal Marsden hospital, despite receiving excellent treatment; ensuring that both the tumour and the tumour treatment there. Ovarian cancer touches many of us. micro-environment are treated; better understanding of I thank Target Ovarian Cancer, Ovarian Cancer Action, relapses of treatment-resistant ovarian cancer; setting Ovacome and the Eve Appeal, which have all done an up international collaboration to enable tissue samples excellent job in raising MPs’ awareness of ovarian cancer, to be shared and analysed in research; developing better in the ways that the hon. Member for Pudsey and others experimental models; and ensuring that clinical trials have described today. That work has done a lot, not include measures of quality of life and symptom benefit. only to initiate debates in this place, but to assist us as Ovarian Cancer Action believes that those nine actions MPs to play our part in our communities to help to would not only help to improve the quality of life and raise awareness of those issues. ovarian cancer survival rates for women in the UK, but help to position the UK as an international leader in the I could rehearse the statistics again, but will not do so fight against this deadly disease. Is the Minister aware because they have already been well rehearsed and of those recommendations and what is his response to powerfully illustrated with personal stories. I certainly them? recognise the urgency that we need to attach to our fight My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin against cancers and I particularly note the points that Brennan) made the point that, in the sometimes humdrum have been made today about ovarian cancer. That is routine of the life of a junior Minister, there is occasionally why we urgently came forward with the strategy that we a genuine opportunity to make a difference. Having published in January and why we have been fast in listened to the informed, personal and passionate trialling and rolling out awareness campaigns. I will say contributions of colleagues and other hon. Members more about those awareness campaigns shortly. this morning, I hope that the Minister will go away As has been pointed out, late diagnosis is one of the from this debate determined to move ahead—on the main reasons for the relatively poor cancer survival very strong basis of what the last Labour Government rates in England. I must crave the forgiveness of those did and what his Government have done up to now—and colleagues who have spoken today from the perspective actually make a difference in relation to ovarian cancer. of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. They all 93WH Ovarian Cancer12 OCTOBER 2011 Ovarian Cancer 94WH made important points and they need to continue, as I that we set out earlier this year. We are working on know they will, to raise them with their colleagues in the other fronts to try to drive up earlier diagnosis and devolved Administrations who have responsibility for treatment. health. A key focus of the cancer outcome strategy is primary Research by the National Cancer Intelligence Network care, which is why we are investing in providing GPs showed that nearly a quarter of all cancers are diagnosed with practical tools for assessing patients who might through an emergency route, as my hon. Friend the have cancer. In addition, some of the cancer networks Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) are reviewing referral pathways to help to shorten the said. That is at a stage when the cancer is very advanced. time it takes for patients to access diagnostic tests. I The research also showed that one in five patients did welcome the contribution of the cancer charities that not visit their GP before being diagnosed with cancer. have been working with primary care professionals to Diagnosis of ovarian cancer often comes late because promote early diagnosis of cancer, and I specifically pay the symptoms in the early stages—they have been powerfully tribute to Target Ovarian Cancer, which, in partnership set out—are often ignored or thought to be something with BMJ Learning, has produced an online GP learning else. tool that covers the signs and symptoms of ovarian cancer, and diagnostic tests based on the latest evidence. The hon. Member for Slough talked about volunteers, and about the volunteer who did the manicure on that Ms Abbott: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? day when her head was in another place. I have visited hospitals where Macmillan Cancer Support and other voluntary organisations play a part. Such volunteers Paul Burstow: I want to try to do justice to the debate bring back the key human dimension, which the hon. and ensure that I get to answer a couple more of the Lady was absolutely right to underline. We will ensure questions posed, but I will give way in a moment if I that the role of volunteers in the NHS is valued by can. including that point in the Department of Health’s If a GP suspects cancer, it is vital that they can refer message to the NHS in its soon-to-be-published updated people urgently for further tests, using the two-week volunteer strategy. referral pathway. For women who do not meet the criteria for that pathway for suspected cancer but have Reference has been made to the £450 million for early symptoms that require investigation, we are providing diagnosis work that the Government have put in as part additional funds over the next four years to support the of the spending review. The funds will support campaigns diagnosis of ovarian cancer by giving GPs direct access to raise public awareness of the symptoms of cancers, to four key diagnostic tests, including non-obstetric encouraging people to present with persistent symptoms. ultrasound. Questions have been asked about what data They will also support GPs in more effectively assessing are collected. We plan routinely to collect data on GP people with possible cancer symptoms and improve usage of the four tests and to publish them alongside access to diagnostic tests. In 2010-11, we ran local data on GP usage of the two-week referral pathway, so cancer awareness campaigns and a regional pilot campaign that we can benchmark performance and expose areas for bowel cancer, and in 2011-12 we are running a that are not performing as well as others. national campaign on bowel cancer, a regional campaign on lung cancer and 18 local campaigns to raise awareness Several hon. Members asked about the CA 125 test of breast cancer among women over 70 and of the and suggested that there are restrictions. I can assure symptoms of some less common cancers. Members that if there were restrictions we would challenge them. Just last month, Bruce Keogh, NHS medical A question that has been rightly put is, why, so far, director, wrote to strategic health authorities to raise have we not addressed ourselves to ovarian cancer? questions about general access to diagnostics, and David Understandably, Members want answers, not least because Flory, deputy NHS chief executive, reiterated in the of the evidence that if we were performing at, I believe, September edition of The Quarter that there must be no just the average of our European neighbours—certainly “arbitrary restrictions on access”. That would apply to if we were matching the best of them—500 additional the CA 125 test, not least because it is clearly covered in lives would be saved every year. We are considering NICE guidance. whether there is scope for piloting ovarian cancer awareness campaigns, drawing on the experience of our more Hon. Members referred to the two ongoing trials, generic campaigns on blood in urine, which can be a which are evidence of the research taking place. The marker for bladder and kidney cancers, and on the UK collaborative trial of ovarian cancer screening offers evaluations of awareness campaigns on specific disease real prospects for a screening tool, but on screening the sites. That will inform us how we can most effectively Government of the day take the advice of the UK roll out further campaigns. I give that undertaking, and National Screening Committee, which considers the I am more than happy to meet with members of the evidence from trials of the sort going on at the moment. all-party group. A randomised control trial of 200,000 post-menopausal women aged between 50 and 74 is studying the use of The hon. Member for Romsey and Southampton annual CA 125 blood tests as a way to identify—along North (Caroline Nokes) spoke very persuasively about with annual trans-vaginal ultrasound—which women the scope for using existing screening programmes to are most at risk of ovarian cancer. The results of the deliver awareness-raising messages about other cancers, study will be available in 2015, and the Government will and ovarian cancer in particular, and we will consider then respond to the recommendations that the UK how we might implement such a practical solution. National Screening Committee makes on the basis of Nevertheless, I hope that hon. Members appreciate that the evidence. I hope that there will be a positive awareness raising is just one of a range of actions, and recommendation that enables us to roll out such a that we need to look at the other aspects of the strategy screening programme. 95WH Ovarian Cancer 12 OCTOBER 2011 96WH

[Paul Burstow] Innovation (NHS) Familial ovarian cancer screening was referred to 11 am early in the debate, and a study has shown that up to 10% of ovarian cancers can be attributed to an inherited John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve genetic predisposition. It was mentioned that the results under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I requested of that research would be available in 2012, but we this debate in order to raise important issues about the understand that the study will close in 2013. We would ongoing review of how the national health service extracts want to act on the evidence from that study. the full potential from innovative, commercially realisable Research, therefore, is taking place in those two fields. ideas generated by NHS employees, and to seek clarification High-quality applications are the key to getting research from the Minister about the scope of the Carruthers funding; we do not fund solely on the basis of something review of innovation in the NHS announced this July. being a priority. The hon. Member for Hackney North I was led to the subject by my involvement with and Stoke Newington asked about Ovarian Cancer Odstock Medical Ltd in my constituency, a company Action’s nine recommendations, and I will respond to that has grown from Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust. her in writing, with copies to colleagues. OML has pioneered a technique called functional electrical National measurement was mentioned. The NHS stimulation that produces contractions in paralysed muscles operating framework for England for 2011-12 requires by applying small pulses of electrical stimulation. Having that cancer registries record the stage of cancer, which is experienced it myself, I can attest that it assists walking. a key proxy for predicting outcomes, and publish one-year, OML has developed a range of neuromuscular stimulators as well as five-year, survival rates. We are benchmarking, to improve the functional ability of people with neurological providing a useful way to see who is performing well conditions such as multiple sclerosis. The devices have and who is not, and, as the hon. Member for Hackney been developed during many years of collaboration North and Stoke Newington mentioned, we are in the among clinical engineers, clinicians and patients at the international benchmarking partnership with other nations. National Clinical FES Centre at Salisbury NHS Foundation Would she like to make her intervention in the remaining Trust. time? Last year, it came to my attention that, because OML is partly owned by the local NHS foundation trust, Ms Abbott indicated dissent. under EU rules, it cannot be classified as a small or medium-sized enterprise, and therefore cannot access Paul Burstow: In conclusion, I hope that I have grants and support through normal Department for responded positively to the debate. We must make progress Business, Innovation and Skills channels. That seems on a broad front in this area to improve early diagnosis ludicrous. I met the Minister of State, Department for and get the treatment that people need so that we can Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the cut the death toll in this country from all cancers. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), who Ovarian cancer is, and will continue to be, a priority for has responsibility for small business, along with Professor this Government. Ian Swain from OML. Little progress could be made, although attempts were made to access specific funds and schemes. It is a systemic failing. Anxious to overcome that barrier and explore other aspects of innovation in the NHS, more recently, I met with Alun Williams, the CEO of NHS Innovations South West, who has an office in my constituency and is here today. Alun is wholly committed to the NHS and is passionate, as am I, about finding ways to develop streams of revenue for the NHS. I thank him for his support and advice as we have discussed the subject in recent months. My key concern is this. As populations age, as the cost of drugs and treatments rises faster than inflation and as medical science, thankfully, finds ever more treatments for human ailments and medical conditions, the NHS must be more radical in exploiting the bright ideas of its staff to ensure that the commercial potential of those ideas are realised fully by the NHS. Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this enormously important debate. I was brought to the subject by NHS Innovations South East. Does he agree that NHS staff can come up with innovations—examples cited to me include improvements in child protection investigations and adolescent mental health programmes—that do not readily or easily translate or crystallise into commercial benefit? Is it therefore not short-sighted for the Government to insist, as I understand they are, that innovation bodies must be totally self-supporting commercially? 97WH Innovation (NHS)12 OCTOBER 2011 Innovation (NHS) 98WH

John Glen: I certainly contend that there are significant I recognise that it should not be the NHS’s primary pockets of innovation. The challenge is bringing those objective to develop income streams from medical devices, ideas to their full commercial potential and getting new treatments or services. Equally, given that great them into the NHS so that they are cheaper for the user. ideas are an unintended by-product of taxpayer investment The adoption and uptake of NHS-grown ideas is not in providing a world-class national health service, it wide or deep enough, few hospitals showcase their ideas would surely be wrong not to look hard at making and the wider benefits are not really felt across the innovation work to the NHS’s advantage. So many NHS. Some ideas, when fully exploited, might realise ideas derive from employees whom the state pays quite significant streams of revenue, easing the cost pressures handsomely. that I mentioned. Furthermore, after initial investment, funding innovation The review led by Sir Ian Carruthers, announced at could be self-financing, using royalties from previous the beginning of July by the Department of Health, will successful investment. It just needs to unlock that potential. seek in its report next month to inform the strategic Alongside producing efficiency savings, this significant approach to innovation in the modernised NHS. However, reform need not require significant capital outlay at the it must not simply set up another framework or broad outset. aspirations; it must deal convincingly with the gritty It feels as if successive Governments have been so realities of what is needed to take a proven idea that has concerned to avoid the tag of allowing the waste of been honed, challenged and assessed by the innovation capital on ideas that do not immediately point to a hubs to its full commercially realised potential. return, or being portrayed as blurring the boundaries of The report must also recognise that, unless a way is the NHS, that they have not fully established the means found to invest in such ideas, their commercial potential and mechanisms of making ideas realise their potential. will be exploited by private sector entrepreneurs who Lip service is paid to the desire to innovate, but practical can move more rapidly and access finance more quickly. measures that make it possible on anything like the Intellectual property will thus be patented not by individual scale that is possible are not in place. It is more a NHS trusts, as is desirable, but by the private sector, question of whether the NHS can afford not to exploit which will then charge the NHS for products and services the potential savings and revenue streams presented by at rates that the NHS would rather not pay. I urge the these ideas. Minister to push the boundaries and ensure that we do I am aware that the current position is not completely not risk allowing the ideas of excellent NHS employees bleak. The Minister will be able to cite a pipeline of to be lost, thus losing the value and savings that could ideas and he will know that the UK has established accrue. capabilities in this field. The medical device sector alone Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I congratulate makes a significant contribution to the UK economy, my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. with an industry turnover of £13 billion and 55,000 Does he agree that, although it is important for the employees. That industry, however, is generally a supplier NHS to realise the commercial value of innovation, it is to the NHS. We need to move to a situation in which the also fundamental to the improvement of patient care NHS itself generates devices that can save—with a that innovations take hold more rapidly? Did he see this small s—the NHS from bearing the full commercial morning’s comments by Professor Williams, president costs of products that the private sector has developed of the Royal College of Surgeons, who warned of a in its place. Why is it not possible for the Government to 20-year wait before innovations start saving lives if we establish an innovation strategy with a real focus on base innovation progress on previous experience? He extracting value from the pipeline? cited reduced deaths from bowel cancer as a result of I am not suggesting that there should be centrally keyhole surgery, which took years to become widespread driven, random speculative investment of taxpayers’ practice. money in half-baked ideas suggested by any clinician. The regional innovation hubs are already primed to sift John Glen: I thank my hon. Friend for that extremely ideas. For example, NHS Innovations South West has helpful intervention. I met Professor Williams last week, criteria that each product has to meet before it can and he made that point to me. That is the nub of the receive further assistance. First and foremost, it must matter. If the NHS does not move quickly on such bring significant benefit to patients in terms of better ideas, someone else will, and it will cost more. My hon. outcomes and quality of life. It must also be patentable. Friend is absolutely right. The impact on outcomes is The return on investment must meet a minimum threshold negative. We must move matters forward so that the and it must be commercially viable—that is, there must advantages can accrue to the NHS. be an assessment of a global need for the technology, It is important to realise that, in the big picture making it a worthwhile investment for commercial partners. of NHS politics, there is an almost pathological fear of Once that has been established, the issue is how to doing anything that could imply the use of the word develop the ideas to their full potential. Several ideas “cut” or the even more toxic P-word, privatisation. I am exist in the south-west. A cancer diagnostic endoscope not arguing for either, but I am saying that, unless we and meniscus knee repair device are both, subject to adopt savvy practices to incubate and develop proven completing clinical trials, able to meet the criteria concepts more speedily, I fail to see how the NHS can to which I have referred. Given that oesophageal cancer deal with the increasingly more intense systemic supply is one of the fastest growing cancers globally and early and demand pressures that it will face. Efficiency savings diagnosis can have a significant impact on savings in the and ring-fenced budgets, although welcome, will not be NHS, it is highly desirable that that progresses quickly. enough to save the NHS and provide the money that it The meniscus device should significantly improve patients’ needs to continue in its present form. We need more quality of life and postpone the need for an expensive realism about that, and a radical solution that has the total knee replacement by up to five years, thereby potential to create more money. again saving the NHS huge sums of money. 99WH Innovation (NHS)12 OCTOBER 2011 Innovation (NHS) 100WH

[John Glen] and others have for the benefit of their patients. While we continue to achieve great things, we must always My concern is that it is purely by chance that the strive for more. private sector has not taken this work further. The Innovation does not happen when power is centralised current NHS process for capitalising on these innovations and people are told what to do, so the single biggest is not quick enough. There is limited access to NHS thing that we are doing to encourage innovation is to funding, and progress is inhibited by insufficient incentives devolve power to clinical professionals, trusting their and enabling mechanisms to encourage trusts to invest professional judgment and their desire to do their best in such promising cost-saving technologies. Hospitals for their patients. exploit these ideas elsewhere in the world and significant Our modernisation of the NHS will encourage innovation royalty streams accrue. They would make a recurring in three main ways. First, it will place the patient at the contribution to the much required efficiency savings centre of decision-making about their own care—informed, that the chairman and chief executive of my hospital empowered and able to choose the best possible appropriate trust are desperately trying to find at present. care—so that providers will have to innovate to stand In conclusion, I believe that the NHS is a powerhouse out. Secondly, it will have a resolute focus on improving of innovation, but that that is not being harnessed health outcomes—publishing the data and rewarding sufficiently to accrue the tens of millions that would be excellence—so that hospitals and others will have a available to individual NHS trusts if a bolder approach powerful incentive to innovate and improve. Thirdly, it were taken by Government. I urge the Minister to will place power in the hands of local clinicians, thereby consider carefully the potential of the ideas in the NHS getting rid of the huge and wasteful bureaucracy that and to do all he can to ensure that the scope of the can strangle and frustrate innovation, and let the knowledge Carruthers review is broad enough to deliver and expertise of clinicians drive innovation locally. recommendations that will allow the huge value that That will lead to a more personalised NHS, with exists to be realised. services tailored to patients’ needs; a more integrated NHS, with solutions that tackle inequalities, improve access and deliver care closer to home; and a better 11.14 am quality NHS, with every provider encouraged, rewarded The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon and incentivised to constantly improve outcomes for Burns): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, patients. Mr Rosindell. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member There is also a wider economic imperative for innovation. for Salisbury (John Glen) on securing this debate on The health care sector, including pharmaceuticals, medical what is widely recognised as an important issue for the technology, research, equipment and services, directly NHS because of the crucial role that innovation plays or indirectly employs hundreds of thousands of highly in the present and will play in the future. Given his skilled people in companies, from small and medium-sized ideas, views and thoughts, he might seek to arrange a enterprises to global giants, generating billions of pounds meeting, if he has not already done so, with my noble in revenues, all helping to drive future economic growth. Friend the Earl Howe, who is the Health Minister with Innovation in health care applies to everyone—scientists, responsibility for innovation. nurses, doctors and managers. In fact, it applies to all those working to deliver better health, better care and I shall respond by first setting out the Government’s better value. We must ensure that innovation is not approach to innovation, before looking at the specific simply the preserve of elite minds at the top of august issues that have been raised by my hon. Friend. As we institutions, because it is not just about the latest drugs all know, and as he has reiterated, we face a significant or high-tech pieces of equipment. The spirit of innovation challenge. Without real change, the cost of health care should be part and parcel of every part and every level will grow faster than the rest of the economy. Moreover, of the NHS. the quality of care in vital areas such as cancer will lag behind other countries, and the gap between the best One of my favourite examples of innovation in action and the worst NHS care will continue to grow. More of is a jug—a health care assistant in Milton Keynes the same simply will not do. We cannot afford it and decided that patients whose fluid intake needed close patients do not deserve it. We need, in other words, to attention should each have a bright red water jug. That innovate, as my hon. Friend has said. particular innovation gave ward staff a clear visual reminder of those patients’ specific needs, helped them Fortunately, there is a vast reservoir of innovation to to better care for patients, avoided the need for drips, tap within the NHS. It has a long history of innovation, reduced the risk of infection, cut patients’ stays in invention and research by great people and great institutions. hospital and consequently cut the cost of their care. Ian Donald, for instance, pioneered the use of ultrasound That is all because of a bright red jug and one very in the 1950s. Sir Peter Mansfield’s work led to the MRI bright idea from a health care assistant. scanner in the 1970s. The Sanger Institute developed We have also made a strong and ongoing commitment the first working draft of the human genome in 2000. to innovation through research. The Government’s We continue to lead the way in cutting-edge research, as plan for growth cements our commitment to health care the recently announced first European trial of embryonic and the life sciences as a force for growth in the stem cell research at Moorfields eye hospital demonstrates. economy. The Government’s National Institute for Health The creative spark that kick starts the long and Research aims to support outstanding individuals, working difficult journey from initial idea to widely adopted in world-class facilities and conducting leading-edge treatment is a precious and delicate thing. We need to research focused on the needs of patients and the public. do all we can to encourage that creativity within the We have recently announced a record £800 million in NHS—to grow and propagate the ideas that clinicians additional NIHR funding for experimental medicine 101WH Innovation (NHS)12 OCTOBER 2011 Innovation (NHS) 102WH and translational health research. We will also streamline the NHS to compete in the international health care regulation and improve the cost-effectiveness of clinical market and to exploit the commercial value of its trials, speeding up the process of translating research technologies, products and knowledge. In doing so, into better lives for patients, their families and their NHS Global acts as another mechanism to support carers. great ideas generated in the NHS being widely accepted However, no matter how extraordinary the innovation across the world. or how miraculous the invention, it is worthless if it is In the case of the company mentioned by my hon. not used, as my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury Friend the Member for Salisbury—Odstock Medical said. Any innovation that is not widely adopted is a Ltd—if it has not done so already, I suggest that it tragic waste. Like many large organisations, the NHS’s contacts the NIHR’s invention for innovation scheme. uptake and spread of innovation has often been slow. i4i supports product development and the guided We need to raise our game, as my hon. Friend alluded progression of innovative medical product prototypes, to. We need to do more to recognise the contribution and I strongly advise the company to get in touch with that innovators and innovative organisations make and it if it has not done so. to encourage adoption and diffusion across the NHS on The Health and Social Care Bill, now passing through a scale never seen before. the House of Lords, will place a legal duty on the NHS commissioning board and on clinical commissioning Mr Andrew Smith: In that context, can the Minister groups to promote innovation and research. Soon the say what future he sees for the work presently being NHS chief executive, Sir David Nicholson, will set out undertaken by the regional NHS hubs, especially in the achievable, high-impact recommendations that will inform area to which I alluded earlier where there might not be the strategic approach to innovation that is so important an immediate commercial return? within a modernised NHS. We will open up NHS procurement to small and medium-sized enterprises, Mr Burns: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman simplify the process and challenge them to come up for that intervention. I will certainly come to that matter with solutions to problems within the NHS. We have during my comments and before we finish the debate. committed £10 million to the small business research A substantial amount of work is already under way, initiative. including the £60 million that has been invested in Innovation can never be mandated and it should regional innovation funds, which support front-line staff never be restricted to a particular group. Innovation in to develop and spread new ideas and validate the notion health and social care will come from a wide variety of that it is good to challenge the way things have always partners, for example, NHS staff and patients, private been done. The funds are massively over-subscribed companies, the voluntary sector and academia. They all and have to date given money to more than 300 projects. have a crucial role to play in pushing forward the Further work includes the innovative technology adoption boundaries in developing and dreaming up innovative procurement programme, which aims to encourage the products and services to meet the ever increasing demands NHS-wide adoption of high-impact innovative medical of a modernised NHS. technologies, and the innovation challenge prizes, which Innovation is not easy. It takes more than just a good reward the ideas that tackle some of our big health and idea to innovate; it takes courage to speak out against social care challenges, improving productivity and the how things have always been. Innovators have to hold quality of health care. The first innovation challenge and develop an idea often in the face of opposition and prizes—ranging from £35,000 to £100,000—were awarded keep pushing forward until it begins to bear fruit. I fully in March. Winning entries helped to reduce waste and appreciate that the process of innovation can be a very increase the benefits of medicines, helped people with frustrating time. We must encourage people, so that kidney failure to lead a more independent lifestyle and they do not become frustrated and give up. They should helped in the early diagnosis of cancer. An expert panel be able to pursue dreams and ideas that will bring a is going through this year’s round of applications and I greater improvement to the general provision of health very much look forward to seeing the results later in the care and the NHS. autumn. There is also much of value in the innovation hubs, to Let us imagine a world without antibiotics, without which the right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) insulin, without cancer screening. Then let us imagine a referred. Identifying, developing and commercialising world with a cure for cancer or where we can reverse new ideas within the NHS is a must, and we need to dementia and end heart disease. Without innovation adopt a systematic approach to that. We also need to none of that would be, or could be, possible. Innovation ensure that all parts of the innovation pipeline—invention, is essential for the future of our NHS and for the future adoption and diffusion—are more efficient and effective. of the UK economy. I assure hon. Members that the The NHS chief executive’s innovation review will consider Government will do everything in their power to continue that and how we can achieve better value for money. to promote innovation, so that it can flourish and develop along the lines that we would wish. As announced in “The Plan for Growth,” NHS Global is being developed to help NHS organisations to compete in the global market. NHS Global seeks to build and 11.28 am grow the NHS brand and reputation overseas, enabling Sitting suspended. 103WH 12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 104WH

Public Transport (Disabled Access) as they stand on a train simply in order to get off it, and, in some cases, being stranded on a train because there is no one available to help them. 2.30 pm Although some train companies have made adjustments that already meet the demands of the law, the situation Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Earlier this year, I was is still not good enough. For example, Virgin Trains has visited by a group of my constituents in Wigan who three spaces for wheelchairs on its “Pendolino” service. were from Hunter Lodge, a facility for people with Although that is welcome, it makes it extremely difficult disabilities in the borough. They told me about the for people to travel together. Is it seriously too much to endless difficulties they faced in trying to do some of ask to adapt trains so that young people, such as those the simplest things that most of us take for granted— in the Chamber today who are listening so intently to shopping, visiting friends or getting to work. They tried the debate, can go out with their friends? Is that seriously, to go by train to a nearby town, but had been forced to in 2011, too much to ask? Early next year, the franchise travel by relay because there was only one wheelchair for the west coast main line will be put out to tender. space available on the train. When the train arrived, the Will the Minister give me a commitment today that one space was already taken. They were told that instead of of the criteria for interested companies will be the travelling in the carriage with other people, they would progress they make on this issue? have to go in the guard’s van alongside the bags, parcels, bikes and other goods. I am also deeply concerned that the rhetoric flying around at the moment, about people on incapacity I am angry that, in 2011, that is still considered by benefit, is making an already dreadful situation much some people an acceptable way to treat fellow human worse. In an independent survey for the charity Scope, beings. Astonishingly, when I looked into this matter, I 15% said they had suffered high-level abuse on public found that they were the fortunate ones. Half of all transport. It is a damning indictment of the current train stations do not have level access, so it turns out situation that the campaigning organisation Trailblazers that they were actually lucky to even be able to get on to struggled to find young people who would even take the train platform in the first place. Despite some real part in a recent report on the issue, because they found improvements—not just under the previous Government, the prospect of engaging with public transport too but under the Government before that—we are not distressing to contemplate. People with concessionary moving fast enough. The Association of Train Operating railcards tell me that they have been questioned to a Companies said earlier this year that progress on making humiliating degree on public transport about the nature train station platforms accessible to people with physical of their disability, particularly when that disability is immobility is far too slow, and that Network Rail and not physically obvious. Will the Minister agree to take the Department for Transport need to get a grip of this this up with the rail companies to ensure that the situation. practice stops urgently? I am also concerned about the closure of ticket The difficulty is not just restricted to trains, although offices, an issue that many people have raised with me. that was one of the key issues raised with me by my Without a ticket office, it is nigh on impossible for many constituents. I have also been sent stories about people people—particularly those who have sight problems, trying to travel on airlines who have been asked to pay are in wheelchairs, or have learning difficulties—to even extra charges to carry medical supplies—even oxygen buy a ticket to get on the train. In many instances, ticket canisters—which were classed as excess baggage. office staff are the only people available to assist people physically to get on to the train. The McNulty review Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ recommended closing 675 ticket offices around the country. Co-op): On air travel, my hon. Friend might want to I am aware of the economic realities, but I would like to comment on the practice of some airlines. Even when see a commitment today from the Minister to assure us an air bridge is available at an airport to take passengers that he will not sanction proposals that would leave off without the need for stepped access, airlines use the ticket offices entirely unmanned. That is not just because access stairways to reach aircraft for what I suspect are ticket office staff are often the only people available to financial reasons. In such situations, a person in a help people on to the train. Many people contacted me wheelchair often has to wait until a winch or lifting in advance of this debate to say that so much of the vehicle is brought out from the terminal. Apart from staffing issue is about feeling safe on public transport— the delay that that involves, it is very embarrassing to be having the security of being able to get to where they are picked out in such a way when the facilities are available going without being stranded, which had happened to in the airport to avoid that. That should also be addressed them in too many cases. as part of the joined-up approach that is needed. When I secured this debate, I was contacted by young people from across the country, who described to me, in Lisa Nandy: I could not agree with my hon. Friend a compelling way, how they had been unable to even get more. The example he gives highlights exactly the indignity on and off trains because there were no ramps available, and humiliation that far too many people must face the ramps that were available were too short or too when they try to do something that the rest of us take long, or nobody was there to help them use those for granted. I am grateful to him for raising that point. ramps. More than anything else, I was struck by the On the buses, people seem to fare little better. Half of indignity and humiliation that ran like a thread through all disabled people say that buses are a concern for all those stories. They need electronic ramps on every them. Even something as simple as boarding the bus train so that they do not have to suffer both the indignity presents a problem. Many buses still do not have ramps and the anxiety of hoping desperately that somebody and, even when they do, a common story emerges from will be available to help them, having to make a fuss all the reports I have been sent from across the country 105WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 106WH of drivers refusing to stop because it would take too today’s debate. I am sure that the Minister will want to long to allow somebody to board, or because the space consult it further about some of the difficulties my hon. allocated for a wheelchair is taken up by a pushchair. I Friend mentioned. want to be absolutely clear on this point: I am not Almost half of all bus operator revenue comes from advocating that there should not be space for pushchairs; public funding. I want to see the Government putting it is simply unacceptable that there is not room for serious pressure on companies in receipt of that public everybody. subsidy to ensure that the changes I am outlining today happen. We not only can use our procurement power to Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the make this happen, but we must and should do so, and hon. Lady on securing the debate. This is an issue that make it happen quickly. What is so strikingly clear is concerns the whole of the United Kingdom, although that laws and training are essential but alone they are this debate obviously relates to the UK mainland. In my not enough to solve the problem. previous job as a Member of the Northern Ireland Several years ago I had the privilege to work for the Assembly, I sat on a Committee that was responsible for former Member for Walthamstow, Neil Gerrard, an bringing forward legislative change that enabled public inspirational MP who, among many other things, while transport, both bus and rail, to ensure access for disabled I worked for him brought into law the Private Hire people in wheelchairs in particular, but for visually Vehicle (Carriage of Guide Dogs etc.) Act 2002. It disabled people too. That is starting to roll off the closed a loophole in the law under which black cabs had Assembly line, to use a pun, in Northern Ireland. Does to carry guide dogs but private hire vehicles did not. It the hon. Lady feel that the Government might take that was symbolically important and particularly important as an example of how legislation could be introduced to blind people, who obviously rely more on private hire and delivered, in conjunction with local councils and vehicles than any other form of transport, but Guide other responsible bodies, to ensure disabled access for Dogs for the Blind tells me that, since then, the situation those who are wheelchair bound or visually disabled, has not got much better because the Act has not been not just to public transport—bus and rail—but to taxis enforced. That underlines how enforcement is essential as well? if we are to make progress.

John Robertson (in the Chair): Can we keep the questions Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate a bit shorter? the hon. Lady on securing the debate and on an excellent speech so far. On the subject of guide dogs, will she join Jim Shannon: I appreciate that. me in congratulating my colleague in the London Assembly, Caroline Pidgeon, who has recently run a successful Lisa Nandy: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, campaign to force Transport for London and the because he gives me the opportunity to pay tribute to Government to lift the ban on guide dogs for disabled some of the public transport companies who have worked people on the escalators of the tube, docklands light hard to make real strides forward on this issue. All those railway and overground railway? That is another part of examples show that it can be done if there is a will for it the whole picture. to be done. It is up to all of us here in the Chamber to ensure that we push as hard as we can to make this Lisa Nandy: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for happen. mentioning that, making it clear that the issue is cross-party. Seat belts on buses are not routinely provided for The Disability Discrimination Act 1995, which started wheelchair users. I have been sent some absolutely so much, was passed with cross-party consensus, and it appalling stories of the indignity that people suffer is on that basis that we ought to go forward. All of us when the bus drives off too fast and their wheelchair is ought to play our part in making things happen. not properly secured. Blind people have told me of their Given that enforcement is so badly needed, I would particular difficulties in identifying which bus is arriving, like to hear a commitment from the Minister that and knowing when to get off. Those issues could be mystery shopping exercises should be part of the franchising rectified by introducing talking buses, by introducing agreement on the railways and that he will find a seat belts, by introducing more space for buggies and mechanism to impose that condition on companies in wheelchairs, and training for drivers. receipt of public subsidy. Although feedback and surveys are an important part of any organisation, what is clear Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): My hon. Friend from the evidence sent to me by a whole range of has made an incredibly compelling case. May I commend organisations is that feedback alone is not enough. to her the campaign of Guide Dogs Cymru, “Walk a Often people’s experiences on public transport are so Mile in My Shoes”, which I had the pleasure of taking distressing that they do not want to relive those experiences part in last week with councillors and Assembly Members? by having to send in a survey response or make a She was talking about a joined-up approach, and that complaint, so I want the commitment to mystery shopping event brought home to me the difficulties experienced exercises to be part of our agreements with such companies. by people with sight loss and other disabilities negotiating Sixteen years ago, the landmark Disability Discrimination city centres and getting to the bus or train station in the Act was passed in this House with cross-party support, first place, let alone dealing with announcements making a promise to people up and down the country and so on. that we have simply not fulfilled. We have failed many of those observing in the Chamber, and others up and Lisa Nandy: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for down the country. A full 13 years after the regulations making that point. Guide Dogs for the Blind was one of that breathed life into the Act came into force, it is the most helpful organisations when I was preparing for nothing short of appalling that the situation is not 107WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 108WH

[Lisa Nandy] If we are to resolve the situation, it will require not just action but a shift in our collective mindset. It is not better than it is. There are 12 million people with people with disabilities who need to adapt their lives—they disabilities in the UK and, as we all live longer, that have already done their bit. It is the rest of us who need number is increasing. There is not only a moral imperative to change our attitudes towards them. In the end, the to take urgent action, but a social and economic one. question is about the sort of society that we want to live Yet, in advance of the debate, I was contacted by Scope, in. Do we want to live in the sort of country in which we Whizz-Kidz, Transport for All, the National Children’s say to my 15-year-old constituent, Michael, that we Bureau, the Every Disabled Child Matters campaign, have no place for him? That is not the sort of country the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport that I want to see. We should be ashamed, and I hope Workers, the Association of Train Operating Companies, that all of us, in every part of the House, will make the Passenger Focus, the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign issue a long overdue priority. and many others all expressing exactly the same concerns: not only did they say that the situation is not getting better fast enough, but many are concerned that the 2.47 pm situation is getting worse and not better. Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): With cancelled station upgrades, cuts to discretionary It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, travel and ticket office closures, we need a renewed Mr Robertson. I congratulate the hon. Member for focus on the area, and urgently. That is one reason why I Wigan (Lisa Nandy) on a compelling and powerful am so deeply concerned that the Disabled Persons speech, even if I did not quite agree with everything that Transport Advisory Committee has been abolished. she said—but such is life. Will the Minister at least commit to setting up a working group, with transport companies and people with disabilities I do not wish to pre-empt my ten-minute rule Bill represented, to drive forward the necessary improvements next Tuesday, which I recommend to everyone, but I to public transport by the 2020 deadline? Many of the have a few preliminary comments. All in the Chamber organisations I mentioned, which are far more expert in know how much the concessionary fares are valued by the area than I am, have expressed real concerns to me our constituents, even if we tend to argue about them at that we will not meet even those most basic standards election time. One particular imbalance, however, needs that we promised to meet 16 years ago. The Government to be addressed. Able-bodied pensioners who can use have made it a real priority to get disabled people into the buses get the concessionary fare, but disabled pensioners work. Setting up a working group would at least send a who cannot use the buses and have to rely on dial-a-ride strong signal that they are committed to that. If they services, demand-responsive services or other community are going to ask people to go to work, they ought to be transport must pay their own way. That seems to me to committed to enabling them to have the means to be a glaring imbalance, which no doubt runs contrary achieve that. to the spirit of the legislation when introduced by the One of the most shocking things that I have found Labour party—none the less, an imbalance. since my constituents came to see me in Wigan several I understand that certain councils choose to provide months ago is that many of us—myself included—live free transport for the disabled, but not every council our lives blissfully unaware that such an appalling situation does. With the increasing budgetary pressures, I fear is a daily reality for people up and down the country. I that fewer and fewer will. The imbalance seems not only am pleased that so many Members are present today, unfair but contrary to the spirit of equality and of and that we are using our position in this House to human dignity. However, I realise that a spending shine a spotlight on that situation. I am concerned, commitment would be involved, which is no doubt however, about what happens after today. Too often in frowned upon. To many of the pensioners who contact this place we have a debate, express concerns and make me and say, “I don’t need the card, I am wealthy enough our views known, but nothing happens next. Will the to pay myself”, I make the point that people can always Minister commit to ensuring that any company in receipt pay their own way—no one is forcing them to have a of public subsidy will be required to report annually to card. Equally, however, my constituents in Blackpool Parliament on the progress that it makes in the area? do not deserve to be treated differently from my constituents The requirement need not be onerous—perhaps an in Wyre. Everyone should have the same right to free annual letter to the Select Committee on Transport, for transport and free travel, and any hon. Member who example. However brief, it would help to ensure that wants to support my Bill, may add their name after the those of us who have the luxury of ignoring the problem debate. are not allowed to do so. Finally, I want to tell the Chamber about one of my One of the great honours of being an MP is the constituents, Michael. He is 15-years-old; because of opportunity to chair the all-party group on young illness he is in a wheelchair and has been all his life. He disabled people. Its secretariat is wonderfully provided was born alongside the Disability Discrimination Act by the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign. I am not a great which gave hope to people in his situation throughout fan of the all-party group system as a whole because the country. Essentially, if we will not take action to too many strike me as unnecessary vanity projects, or meet by 2020 the commitments made 16 years ago, we an excuse to visit obscure countries that I have never are saying to Michael, “You have lived all your lifetime heard of. However, when I was approached, I said that I with these problems. By the time that you are 24 years would be the chairman on one condition—that the old, you will still struggle to work and to see friends. We group is meaningful. I wanted outcomes, processes and will not give you the freedom that you both need and reports. I did not want to sit around just talking about deserve.” We in the House are simply not doing enough the problems; I wanted to hear what we could do about to help Michael to live his life. them. That is certainly what I got. 109WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 110WH

Report No. 1 of the “Inclusion Now” series is called disappearing, but Equality 2025, which is based at the “End of the Line”. Leaving aside the fact that that was Home Office, will absorb its responsibilities, and a also the title of the Conservative party’s report on wider equality framework may be more effective at coastal towns when in opposition and that that is now achieving the goals that she wants. in the Government’s bottom drawer, I welcome it because I do not want negativity, so I shall mention a success it explains what happens to many disabled people. They from the Trailblazer campaign. Carrie-Ann Fleming, may want to get off at a station, but when they arrive no who lives in Kendal, often had to wait an hour at a bus one is there to help them, and they may go to the end of stop for the right disabled-access bus to come along. the line, which is often many stations away, because no She thought that that was not good enough, so she one will help them to get off. launched a campaign and fought really hard. For once, The report was followed by a public hearing of the a local council listened to someone complaining about all-party group to which we invited numerous transport something. That rarely happens, but it did in this case, providers. At the start of the meeting, I said that I did and the council will alter the timetables to ensure that not want negativity, and to hear just the bad. As the she can get on a bus without having to wait an hour. hon. Member for Wigan said, we have made strides, and I will close with a plea for human dignity. Some 47% if we tell train, bus and taxi companies only what they of disabled people experience some form of abuse on are doing wrong, they will not be encouraged to fix public transport, according to Alice Maynard of Scope. what is wrong. She is no relation; I do not know which of us is more Some dreadful cases came to light. Buses pulled away relieved about that. Even I have experienced abuse. I sharply with wheelchairs going everywhere, and passengers take a bus to the station every morning on my way here. with imbalance issues were sent flying. The assisted At 7 am, I am often a bit groggy and a bit woolly-headed, passenger registration service limits people’s spontaneity and I do not always keep my balance when the driver because they must give 24 hours’ notice. If I had to give puts his foot down and roars off from the bus stop. 24 hours’ notice of where I wanted to go, I am not sure I may go flying, and on one occasion I crashed into a that I could live my life as it is. business lady who was not very happy about that. I The hon. Member for Wigan referred to accessibility apologised, and explained that my balance is by no issues at stations. I know that many of the buildings are means perfect, and that I struggle on buses. She said old—they have been around for a long time—but with that I should not be on a bus if I cannot stand up better creativity and a bit of thought, I am sure that straight. I just said, “I beg your pardon?” I could not solutions could be found. Perhaps the most controversial believe it, because I have as much right as she does to be issue was staff awareness and individual members of on the bus. It is not called able-body transport; it is staff who did not meet the standards expected by their called public transport. That means that we should all own company. That is a difficult issue. Many people be able to use it, not just the able-bodied. think that such members of staff just need more training. I take a slightly more libertarian view, because we 2.57 pm cannot control what occurs in people’s minds. I would love to make them all think as they should think, but Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ that cannot happen. However, every disabled person Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, who suffers should have the confidence to enter the Mr Robertson, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the complaints process knowing that they will be listened Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) on the way she introduced to, and knowing that they will not be dismissed. this important subject. I also congratulate the hon. We cannot have passengers being left on trains, and Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul we cannot have staff members ignoring them at stations. Maynard). I have spoken about the issue in several We cannot have that attitude, but we must recognise debates, and I am grateful for the opportunity to make that there is a problem because of the age of many of a few further points. our trains, buses and so on. I often travel by train into The starting point must be that measures to make it Manchester from Preston on what is essentially a bus easier for disabled people to use mainstream public on wheels. I suspect that it is older than me. It is transport are simply part of a wider objective of ensuring unrealistic to expect it to have all the knobs and flashing equality for disabled people in society overall. Public buttons that a modern train might have to enable passengers transport should be accessible and affordable so that to draw attention to the fact that a disabled passenger disabled people can travel when and where they like. may be trying to get off. Such technology might ease the That is a basic principle of equality and human rights, problems for staff also. and it underlines all that we should be doing in this I pay tribute to National Express, which does an area. I know that many hon. Members want to speak, excellent job in providing for disabled people. There are so I shall make only a few comments. issues about the Government’s funding of coach services As my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan said, the that might threaten some of the subsidies, but I had percentage of the population with a disability is substantial, better not go there. However, I have asked National and the figures for Scotland are even higher than those Express why it does not introduce a 50% reduction for the United Kingdom. It is estimated that about 20% card. If it has so many disabled passengers, I am sure it of the population of Scotland have a disability. At some will keep them if it introduces a card under its own stage, almost all of us in the Chamber will have a steam. disability, which shows the scale of the issue. People The hon. Member for Wigan was critical of the with mobility issues make around one third fewer trips abolition of the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory than those without such difficulties. Disabled people Committee, but I do not share that criticism. We are are disproportionately dependent on public transport, having a quango cull, with many worthy bodies and 60% have no car in the household, compared with 111WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 112WH

[Mark Lazarowicz] people would lose their balance and fall over. The issue was solved simply by installing more rails and grips for 27% in the general population. In March 2009, only people to hold on to once on the bus—a common-sense 53% of licensed taxis in Britain were wheelchair accessible, approach that was not thought of at the time, but and in 2009-10, 39% of buses in Great Britain did not which, due to consultation with local people, was resolved meet the accessibility requirements in disability quickly. That is an example of the need for simple, discrimination legislation. joined-up government, as well as regulations and spending, I am pleased to say that in my constituency the and it is why the voice of disabled people is particularly situation is considerably better. Every taxi, but not important. There is no better way to understand where private hire cars, in Edinburgh must be wheelchair services or adaptations are needed than talking to those accessible. Two bus companies serve Edinburgh, and who use them. 100% of the buses operated by Lothian Buses, which is I have two final points to make. First, the campaign Britain’s largest publicly owned bus company, are accessible, for talking buses is an eminently sensible proposal that as are 85% to 90% of the buses operated by First seeks the mandatory installation of audio and visual Group, to be fair. That illustrates the fact that we can announcements on all new buses. The cost would be make a difference and that changes can be made. It is a small compared with the overall cost of new buses, and matter of political will, as well as legislation and regulations. that provision could be attained by amending the Public Service Vehicles Accessibility Regulations 2000. As I Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I am grateful understand it, the Department for Transport currently to my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) does not intend to legislate on that, but I hope that the for securing the debate. Before coming to the House, I Government will change their position. Such a measure spent 30 years working in the area of special needs and would make great common sense and be useful to all disabilities, and my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh passengers, not just those with issues of accessibility. North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) is right to say that planning sits at the centre of those issues. If we put the Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I am grateful needs of disabled people at the centre of our planning, to my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) be that for a leisure centre, a system, a school, a college for securing this important debate. Is my hon. Friend or a train, we will get it right for those disabled people, the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark but also for everybody else—that comes from 30 years’ Lazarowicz) aware that in many countries campaigns experience. such as that for talking buses, run by Guide Dogs for the Blind, are commonplace? When I worked in Japan more than 20 years ago, talking buses were the norm Mark Lazarowicz: Absolutely. I intended to make and were not seen as unusual. I do not know when that that point later, but I shall deal with it now. It is began, but it is imperative that such a system is introduced essential that regulations are tightened and that funding in this country as soon as possible. If that is not carried is provided. The wonderful phrase “joined-up government” out voluntarily by bus companies in receipt of public needs to apply in this area because there are many funding, strong pressure should be put on them. examples of simple things that could be done to improve access for disabled people. There are also examples of where the consequences of a minor local policy or local Mark Lazarowicz: My hon. Friend makes a good works were not thought through and had a detrimental point; I have been on buses with that facility in other effect on access for disabled people. I believe it would be parts of Europe. If regulations are not changed, the good to retain the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory speed with which that facility spreads through the bus Committee, because whatever support is provided in-house network will be so slow that it will take 10, 20 or 30 by the Department for Transport, it will not have the years for a reasonable number of buses to be equipped, same voice as an independent body that speaks for its if it happens at all. users. I shall not go into that in detail, but we shall see what the Government have to say on the matter. Dr Huppert: Just before the previous intervention, the hon. Gentleman touched on the point that I wish to A lack of joined-up thinking can make a difference. raise. A lot of the interventions that we have mentioned— For example, I have seen trains that have good accessibility, not all of them, but those such as talking buses and such as spaces for disabled people and a ramp that is having more grab rails—would benefit everybody. For operated either manually or automatically, so that when too long, and in so many ways, we have accepted a the train arrives at a station, people can leave it easily. design that is no good for either disabled or non-disabled However, there may be temporary works at the station— people. The principles of inclusive design should help perhaps a barrier or building work has been set up, or a everybody, and we should encourage that as well as load of bricks has appeared at the end of the ramp—and those things that specifically help some groups of disabled people cannot get off. That point is not only about people. accessibility for people in wheelchairs; accessibility can be difficult for all sorts of people because, to put it Mark Lazarowicz: Indeed. I do not want to turn this bluntly, not enough thinking has been done on how to into a debate about the advantages of publicly owned join up different aspects of a service. bus companies, although I am sure some hon. Members I will refer again to Edinburgh, where 100% of Lothian would like me to do so. However, Lothian Buses is an Buses are now accessible to disabled people. A few years example of a company that, because of its nature, has ago, a number of buses were introduced with an increased the advantage of being close to local needs. The newer number of spaces for wheelchairs. However, there were double-decker buses are longer and provide more space a number of complaints, particularly from pensioner for buggies, pushchairs and wheelchair access. They are groups, because the buses would drive off quickly and gradually introducing audio and visual announcements. 113WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 114WH

It can be done; it is about making a choice and taking a just what the problem is. Let me quote just two paragraphs decision on what is needed. I suspect that legislation on from what she says in the report. On the issue of trains, public transport might allow local authorities to specify she says: regulations on improving local access more clearly—perhaps “A couple of times there has been no one with the ramp to help that point is for another day. me off the train at my destination platform, even though I had My final point is to emphasise the need for a joined-up informed them at the other station and been assured that someone approach. We will not get every bus and train in the would have the ramps ready.” country fully accessible overnight—it takes time to make On the issue of buses, she says: such things happen. People on train journeys frequently “Once the driver didn’t drive up to the pavement, not because use more than one operator. They may get on a train he couldn’t, but because it was easier for him to drive off after the that is accessible, but change en route to a service that is other passengers had got on, so I had to get off in the road, which entirely inaccessible. They may not have realised that meant the ramp was very steep and then I had to find a place to and assumed, or even inquired and been assured, that get up onto the pavement.” the next train would be accessible. However, if it is not, Jagz has not been deterred from continuing to travel, they will be stuck on a station, perhaps without assistance, but it is clear from my experience that many who have and will have difficulty in completing their journey. A such bitter experiences give up and stay at home, just bit more thinking and a more joined-up approach would when they want to play a full part in society. improve such situations, although I accept that that The report goes on to detail its findings, and I want cannot be done overnight in every part of the country. to refer briefly to four. First, on transport, the disabled That takes us back to the issue of equality. Every end up having less choice and paying more. Secondly, passenger, whatever their position, should have the right the young disabled, in particular, feel very much that to start and complete their journey without unreasonable they are second-class citizens. Thirdly, disabled people obstruction or a lack of facilities that prevents them cannot always access the first taxi, train or bus to come from doing so. In spite of the work carried out by the along. As a result, one disabled person told me, “I felt previous Government, which I hope will be continued humiliated about being there on the pavement. Everyone by this Government, the issue needs to be pushed up the else could get on board, but I couldn’t.” Fourthly, the agenda more often. Thinking and regulation need to assisted passenger registration scheme demands 24 hours’ change, or else, despite all the improvements, it will be notice, which in turn restricts spontaneity and independence. many decades before we can say that we have a fully It also fails to provide a service that passengers can accessible transport service in this country. count on, which again is evidenced by Jagz’s experience. Of course, there is an obligation on the companies 3.7 pm that provide those services, and I will come to one such Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): It is a company in a moment. Crucially, however, the Government pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, must also act—not only on the framework of regulation, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for but where there is evidence that companies are not Wigan (Lisa Nandy) for securing the debate and for her discharging their obligations properly. passionate advocacy of a noble cause. That leads me to London Midland. The company is My hon. Friend is right: how we support and care for proposing—the proposals are on the Secretary of State’s the blind, the partially sighted and the disabled in our desk right now—to make significant changes, including communities is the hallmark of a civilised society. I pay to the manning of stations. In my constituency, for tribute to many friends from over many years, including example, Gravelly Hill station and Erdington station those I represent in my constituency of Erdington, who will no longer be manned after 5 o’clock in the evening. have battled against adversity, often in the most extreme Centro has concluded a consultation process, and 18,000 circumstances. Their approach to life was captured by representations have been made, including many from one sufferer of multiple sclerosis from Castle Vale who the disabled, objecting to the proposals and seeking to has been confined to a wheelchair for many years, but bring home what they would mean. said, “I’m disabled, but I’m proud of being disabled.” I have been working with the Royal National Institute Disabled people do not want our pity; they want to play of Blind People, Mencap and the Muscular Dystrophy a full part in society. They expect us to discharge our Campaign to bring home what the impact of the proposals moral duty to them, and for those with responsibility to will be, and I want to give one example. The formidable comply with obligations in the law. Mike Hughes, who is a former police officer, is now My hon. Friend was right to say that there was blind. He is chair of the west midlands region of the all-party consensus on some of the landmark changes RNIB. He tells a story about how he got off at Sutton over the past 20 years, including the Disability Coldfield station at 9.30 one evening. Normally, he Discrimination Act 1995. However, if that is the hallmark immediately rings for a taxi—he has two numbers of a civilised society, by that test and under successive programmed into his phone—but this time he could not Governments, our society has sadly too often failed the get a signal. He was completely lost, and this is a strong, disabled. Having said that, this Government are moving self-confident individual. Fortunately, the person manning in the wrong direction. the ticket office, who was about to close it down, helped Today, we rightly focus on transport, and the problems him out and took him somewhere where he could get a with it are set out in the excellent Trailblazers report. signal and call a taxi. Like Jagz, Mike said, “I wasn’t That report includes the personal experiences of an deterred, Jack, but I know many people like me who’ve admirable woman, Jagdeep Kaur Sehmbi—Jagz, to her had bad experiences and who were deterred from travelling.” friends—who is here today.She has undertaken tremendous As a result of the growing concern among the disabled, work on behalf of those who are wheelchair bound and I and the organisations I mentioned met London Midland the disabled more generally, and she has demonstrated in July. With me was the admirable Rebecca Swift, the 115WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 116WH

[Jack Dromey] is that 60% of people with disabilities have no access to a car and are therefore totally reliant on public transport, RNIB’s regional director. The people we met from be it bus, train, tube or taxi. For them, public transport London Midland were perfectly decent individuals, but is of even greater importance than for the rest of the I hope hon. Members will forgive me for saying that population, and that fundamental point should underlie they were somewhat uncomprehending of their proposals’ the debate. consequences for the disabled. We asked whether the In London, the treatment of passengers with disabilities company had consulted. They replied, “We think we is probably, although it does not always feel like it, did.” We asked how. They said, and I kid thee not, “For rather better than it is in many other parts of the example, we put up posters in the stations.” Our next country. That is not an accident; it has happened because question was, “Posters for the blind and partially sighted?” we have a regulated bus service and a unitary transport We then asked, “Do you think you’re covered by the authority. It has also happened because of the hands-on obligations in the law?” The London Midland people approach taken by the former Greater London council said, “Not sure. We’ll go away and write to you.” They and, for most of the period since their introduction, by wrote back and said, “We don’t think we are, but in the Greater London authority and the Mayor in pushing future we will act as if we were and consult properly.” the whole disability agenda. The Mayor’s office also has That was in accordance with what we had argued. The a very effective advisory network that can ensure that it problem is that they now propose to go full steam ahead delivers on those issues. Under the previous Mayor, Ken with their proposals; there has been no change. That is Livingstone, there was an ambitious programme to simply not good enough, which is why I have written to convert a large number of tube stations to disability the Secretary of State asking whether he will intervene. access, for which he should be commended. That is the I will say more about that in a moment. issue that I want to refer to in a local context. Others have contributed to this important debate. There are 11 stations, Network Rail and underground, Mencap, for example, has focused on National Express, that serve my constituency. Of the Network Rail ones, a company I know very well. It is the biggest long-distance on the North London line, Upper Holloway, Crouch coach company and it is a reputable company. It is also Hill and Canonbury have proper disability access, with a good employer and it is sensitive to the needs of the ramps and so on, and all are staffed at present. With the communities it serves. However, on 18 routes, the 30% stations that are mixed London Underground and Network of fares that are concessionary are now at risk because Rail, there is an utterly ridiculous situation. In the case of the changes to the bus service operators grant. I of Highbury and Islington, for example, the London wrote to the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Overground station has disability access—it has recently the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), and the been refurbished to bring in the East London line—but reply I got today said: the underground station does not, so it is impossible to “All coach operators, including National Express, are free to get off an overground train and on to an underground continue to offer half-price concessionary travel to older and train there, because there is not proper access to enable eligible disabled people on a commercial basis.” people to do so. That sounds like the legendary saying by Anatole France Finsbury Park is a very old, busy and crowded that the rich and the poor are both free to sleep under underground station, and Network Rail, the underground Paris bridges at night. National Express is not a charity; and buses converge there. After a lot of argument, it is a good company, but if it is to continue to offer Network Rail has agreed to put in a lift between street concessionary fares in a significant way, it will require level and the mainline platforms, which are well above continuing Government support. street level. At the same time, Transport for London has What is so admirable about the initiative taken by my cancelled its plans to put in a lift to the underground hon. Friend the Member for Wigan is that she has platforms underneath. Thus we have a ludicrous situation ensured that the voice of the blind, the partially sighted in which someone in a wheelchair, arriving at Finsbury and the disabled is properly heard in the debate. I know Park station by the overground, will be able to get from the Minister understands some of the issues, and when the mainline platforms to the street, but will not be able he responds to what he has heard today I hope he says to get to the underground. how the Government intend to proceed. Specifically, I use that station frequently and every day passengers London Midland cannot be allowed to blunder on carry people with wheelchairs, and carry buggies, up regardless if the disabled are the casualties of its actions. and down. The overcrowding and lack of accessibility, It has not consulted properly, but the organisations and the danger that goes with that, are ridiculous. I representing the disabled have, crucially, offered to work hope that the Minister will pass on to his friend the with it on a consultation. That is why I have requested a Mayor of London what I have to say to him: please meeting with the Secretary of State that involves Jagz think again about the cancellation of the conversion and the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign, the RNIB and scheme for a large number of London stations. It is Mencap. No fundamental decisions that impact seriously making the lives of many people a misery and something on public transport and, in turn, on the disabled should should be done about it. The conversion needs to happen be taken unless the voice of the disabled has been much more widely, across the network. properly heard. At other stations there is no access for people with disabilities. Those include Archway, which was also the 3.18 pm subject of a plan from Ken Livingstone. Three stations Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I congratulate that were due to be converted have had their plans my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) cancelled. Highbury and Islington is the other, and only on securing the debate and on the excellent way in one station—Tufnell Park—has accessibility to the tube, which she introduced the subject for us. The background which is by means of a lift. The situation is ridiculous, 117WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 118WH but I do not plead that case just for my constituency. I Additionally, it is often difficult for people, particularly am using it as an example that could be repeated across those with sight difficulties, when there are no staff on London; it is not exclusive to my area. the station and only ticket vending machines are used. My second general point is about buses and accessibility. The machines are often the wrong height or badly After a lot of campaigning, London buses have ramps, placed. Getting a ticket and getting on the train when and drivers are supposed to stop in such a way that the there are no staff becomes a nightmare. It is unnecessary ramp can be used, enabling wheelchair users to get on and wrong to have such arrangements; they are uncivilised the bus. Many drivers are good, reasonable, responsible and we should put a stop to them. and decent, and they stop in the proper place, giving As many as 10,000 ticket staff across the country people time to get on. That is fine, but unfortunately could lose their jobs between now and 2013 if McNulty some drivers do not do it. Buses are often crowded, so is implemented. Those people are there to help, bring often people with a wheelchair have to wait for many security and support people. Surely we need to give a lot buses to go by before they can get on. On a cold winter’s of thought to that, and quickly. I commend my hon. morning, it is no joke when a person in a wheelchair is Friend the Member for Wigan on obtaining the debate, stuck for a long time simply trying to get on a bus. and I hope that the Minister understands that the role Space is lacking, because it is taken up with buggies and of Government is to regulate and to ensure that services other things, so while I obviously accept the point that are provided: because 60% of people with disabilities awareness is needed, we need training to go with it. have no access to a car, public transport is the only option for them. Buses and trains must be accessible, Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I stations must be staffed and the staff must be trained to hope that the hon. Gentleman will dwell on that point assist people as necessary. That is the only right and for a moment. He referred to gaps in his constituency, proper thing to do. but in the past 15 or 20 years there has been movement 3.28 pm on the issue of infrastructure across the UK. However, Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a privilege there appears still to be a gap in staff training and to be called to speak in the debate following so many awareness of problems. Although there has been some excellent speeches that covered so much ground. I progress on that in the past 10 years, more needs to be congratulate the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) done, particularly as some people do not seem to be on securing the debate and setting out the grounds for it aware of the crucial issues that affect partially-sighted so well. So much has been covered that those listening and disabled people. can benefit from a shorter speech by me. [HON.MEMBERS: “ Hear, hear!”] It is good to have support for that from Jeremy Corbyn: I absolutely accept that attitudes, colleagues. awareness and training have improved, but we need Of course, many of us take access to public transport only look at the building we are in to see that we still for granted. When a train is delayed or we wait a bit for have very far to go in achieving proper accessibility. I a bus, we all grumble about the inconvenience and how realise that those things are not simple, but nevertheless much more arduous the journey is. However, for many they must be achieved. people, a delayed train is insignificant compared with Outside London, where the bus service is largely less the difficulties that they face every time they try to regulated, facilities tend to be much worse, and we need travel. If their bus in London is diverted, they may not a much tougher approach from central Government to simply be able to use the underground instead. If they ensure that bus companies do as they should, bus stops are lucky enough to be in an underground station with are appropriate, and buses are sufficiently regulated and full access for people with physical disabilities, they can regular to enable people to get around. It is no fun to be travel to only 59 other stations out of the 270. Public waiting in a wheelchair in the cold, unable to move transport should be just that—a transport service accessible around to get warm, as other people who are not in by all members of the public, no matter what their need. wheelchairs can. Disabled people in this country have the right not to As to Network Rail, the McNulty review stated: be discriminated against or harassed in relation to the use of transport services. A right of access to transport “The Study recommends that the default position for all services on the GB rail network should be DOO”— for disabled people was first set out in the Disability Discrimination Act 1995, before a broader right to driver-only operations— access was enshrined in the Equality Act 2010. However, “with a second member of train crew only being provided where as many disabled people know only too well and tell me there is a commercial, technical or other imperative.” at constituency surgeries and on the streets, that right How many times have we seen people trying to get on or simply has not become a tangible reality. We desperately off trains at remote or suburban stations at night, when need to ensure that what we have put on the statute there are no staff on the station or the train—only a book is embedded in reality in all local services. driver, who cannot see everything or be everywhere? It I am sure that we will hear from the Minister about is then a great struggle simply to get on or off a train. the work that the Government have done, but there is The McNulty proposal to go to a largely driver-only- much more to do. Just over 50% of bus stops in London operated service means that many suburban and rural are fully accessible. That represents a huge increase, but services will have no member of staff on them, and in is still a very disappointing number, given what is needed. addition there will be unstaffed stations. That is obviously Almost every group that represents people with disabilities a huge deterrent to anyone who has special needs getting has highlighted the problems with the lack of proper into the station and on to the train. I hope that the transport provision. We have heard several times about Minister will make it clear that he does not want that Trailblazers. I have met representatives of several disability aspect of the McNulty proposals to be introduced. groups in Cambridge. They raise those problems regularly. 119WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 120WH

[Dr Julian Huppert] railway is considered a heritage asset. I hope that my hon. Friend and the Minister would agree that when the However, we must not concentrate just on people council consults heritage groups about changes to achieve with physical disabilities. There is an idea that someone decent disabled access on our public transport, we need who is disabled can only be someone in a wheelchair. those groups to get behind such proposals and work The issues affecting people in wheelchairs are, of course, with the industry to make them a reality—they should very important and have been discussed, but disabilities not be allowed to become a block to progress. are not always obvious. I want to highlight some of the particular issues faced by people on the autism spectrum, Dr Huppert: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. including those with Asperger’s syndrome. We have a From my role as co-chair of the Lib Dem transport number of such people in Cambridge, which is why I group, I know that he campaigns very hard for his raise the issue. Roughly one child in 100 under the age railways and I congratulate him on that. We have had a of 18 has an autism spectrum disorder. The National number of conversations on what is a real issue not just Autistic Society recently produced a very good video, for his station, but for a number of others. There is a which I urge hon. Members to watch. It highlights what tendency for some heritage groups and people who autistic people face when trying to use public transport. work in that area to take the attitude that nothing must That is particularly hard for them because it is not ever be changed, which is simply not what we want. obvious that they have any issues at all. Freezing all old buildings as they were in the ’70s is not We need to consider the issue more broadly than just always the right thing to do. The point of public transport by thinking about how people get from A to B. We must is not to be a beautiful monument, but to enable people consider how the problem with access to transport to travel, and travel easily. I hope that we see more affects people’s overall well-being—their entire lives. If movement, which is happening with much of the heritage people are discouraged from travelling, what does that sector, towards the idea that we need to come up with do to other areas of their lives? I am referring to their creative solutions that enable things to work, as well as, ability to meet people, form friendships, find work and we hope, to look good and continue that heritage. That pursue interests—to have all the life experiences that the is a very important point, and there are a number of rest of us take for granted. This is not just about other points that one could talk about in relation to transport; it is about everything else that happens. infrastructure. Clearly, it is important to pick up a lot of the details. As well as the piecemeal changes and infrastructure Many very small things could be fixed. That is why I changes, which affect disabled people on a personal highlighted the work on guide dog access done by level, there is the issue of planning a long-distance Caroline Pidgeon in the London assembly. These are journey. The sheer lack of information and the complexity not hard things to do, but they are very important. involved in finding information make it very hard. If someone wants to travel between two places that they There is much still to do that requires a bit more. We do not regularly travel between and that are a long way need to ensure, for example, that all the Crossrail stations apart, rather than within a city, they have to check the have proper toilet facilities. It is important to remember accessibility of every service, or they risk taking a tube, that something as simple as a toilet facility can represent a train and a bus and then finding that they cannot take a huge block for people who are disabled, whether the next bus. It is extremely hard to plan a long-distance because they are in a wheelchair or because they have journey. There is a huge need to ensure that there is one of the range of conditions, such as Crohn’s disease, linked-up availability of information, whether that is that have a huge effect— available online or in other ways—different people want to use different methods—so that people know that Mark Lazarowicz: This may be an obvious point, but their entire route is accessible and they will not end up toilets at stations should be open. The same goes for at the end of the line with the problems that have been toilets on trains as well. identified. Dr Huppert: Indeed. We need not only to build such This has been a very useful debate and it has been facilities, but to ensure that they are open, accessible good to see mostly cross-party consensus on what we and functional. That is a very important point. There need to do. I look forward to the Minister explaining are too many instances in which that is not the case. We what we will be doing to deliver on the hopes and have a particular issue in Cambridge, although it does aspirations that we all have. In some ways, the issue is not involve transport. A developer wants to move the simple: we need to ensure that the transport service that disabled toilet up a few floors in a shopping area. Of we provide as a nation is fit for everyone. I look forward course, that would make it very hard to get to. to hearing how that will be achieved. I will not say too much about the concerns over the reductions in relation to discretionary fares. That issue 3.36 pm has been highlighted, and I share the concerns expressed. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): It is a However, as well as the detailed changes and the pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson, infrastructure changes, which are extremely important— particularly as this is my first time speaking from the Front Bench. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I know that my for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) on securing the debate. As ever, hon. Friend is keen to proceed, but infrastructure is she spoke with great passion on behalf of those in certainly a concern of the Chippenham Accessible Rail society whose voices are too often unheard or ignored. Transport group. The group and I have thrown our She painted a very clear picture of the difficulties, weight behind Network Rail’s attempts to bring disabled indignities and anxieties that disabled people face in access to Chippenham railway station, but Brunel’s trying to travel on public transport and feel safe. It is 121WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 122WH clear from the number of people here today to listen to Parents with pushchairs find it easier to get on a bus the debate and from the number of hon. Members from because it has a low floor and a space for the pram. every part of the UK who have participated that there is They no longer have to struggle to fold a buggy while a collective, cross-party will to tackle that inequality. holding a toddler and bags of shopping; I speak from The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys experience. Visitors feel more confident in using the (Paul Maynard) also spoke with passion, and this place train and tram because there is a display showing where is richer for his being here and speaking with the real they are and what the final destination is. I cannot resist understanding that comes from personal experience. an example from my own city. It is reassuring to hear Among the many issues that he raised, what struck me Wendy Smith, the voice of Nottingham’s tram, tell was the importance of changing attitudes. That is difficult someone what the next stop is when it is dark outside or and we cannot legislate for it, but I want to hear from pouring with rain, or when the tram is crowded. the Minister what the Government are doing to ensure In 2005, the Department for Transport began trials that staff are aware of and trained to respond to the of on-board audio and visual passenger information needs of disabled passengers so that they do not face systems, with a view to amending the 2000 regulations the same bitter experiences that my hon. Friend the to make such equipment mandatory if the trials prove Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) successful. We need to ensure that that research progresses, described, which he had heard about from his constituents. and I ask the Minister to set out clearly what his Department is doing to extend such provision across My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North the bus network. As my hon. Friend the Member for and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) made important points Wigan said, under the 1998 regulations, all trams and about the practical steps that can be taken to improve trains must be fully accessible by 1 January 2020. What accessibility and rightly pointed out that this is about is the Department doing to ensure that train companies not just buses, trams and trains, but airports and taxis. meet that deadline? My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) reminded us that 60% of disabled people have Unfortunately, the progress achieved under Labour is no access to a car and spelled out both the progress now under threat as a result of this Government’s made and the challenges that remain here in London. reckless deficit reduction plans. We recognise that transport The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) rightly spending needs to be reduced, even though that means highlighted the needs of people with hidden disabilities, making difficult and unpopular decisions, but the such as autism or learning difficulties. Government are going too far and too fast, with serious consequences. Funding for local transport will be reduced We would all agree that good public transport is vital by 26% by 2015—over a quarter of the budget gone. to disabled people and their families. It provides access With ring-fencing removed and local authorities under to education, employment, health care, sports, leisure pressure, transport spending could even be lower. and volunteering opportunities. It enables disabled people Worryingly, the Financial Times reported today that to live independent lives. It helps to combat social Campaign for Better Transport has uncovered the fact isolation. Using public transport empowers disabled that English regions have already lost more than 1,000 people, allowing them to develop self-confidence and bus services—over a fifth of all those supported by skills. local authority funding. Funding for the concessionary The previous Labour Government made huge strides fare scheme has already been cut by £223 million, and forward in improving public transport, including by the bus service operators’ grant will be cut by £254 million making it more accessible for disabled people. However, by 2013. there is clearly more to do. As we have heard today, Overall, the Government are taking away half a disabled people still cannot access the services that billion pounds from local transport funding, causing many of us take for granted, but during the 13 years of unaffordable fare rises and the closure of routes, which Labour government the UK saw spending on rail that will hit everyone in our communities. Disabled people, was almost two and a half times higher than that we who are often on low incomes and especially reliant on inherited. The creation of Network Rail brought significant public transport, will be hit even harder. The scheme modernisation of lines and stations, and a programme that provides half-price coach travel will be wiped out a of replacing the ageing train fleet began, with 4,800 new stroke at the end of this month, putting long-distance accessible train carriages built since 1999. travel out of reach for many pensioners and disabled Labour also significantly increased the support for people, and threatening some routes. local transport services, with investment more than In many areas, school transport, which is particularly doubling on our watch, including improvements here in important for disabled children and young people, is London to buses and the tube, as we have already being cut or removed, hitting family budgets and excluding heard. Local bus services saw investment rise by almost disabled youngsters from after-school activities such as 300%, and across the country bus fleets were modernised, sports, drama and music. That comes on top of the often incorporating features to make them more accessible. removal of education maintenance allowance and a The Rail Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 1998 and threefold hike in tuition fees. No wonder so many young the Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations 2000 people feel that they are being priced out of opportunity. made a number of changes to make using public transport Quite rightly, many hon. Members have focused on easier and safer for disabled people. The majority of the need for physical changes to public transport vehicles buses now have handrails and wheelchair spaces. All to make them more accessible to disabled people, but new tram and train carriages must be accessible, and such changes will simply be irrelevant if the services there is a requirement for audio-visual systems—vital that people need are not running, or if disabled people improvements for disabled people, but benefiting everyone cannot afford to travel on them. Families up and down else too. the country, including those of the disabled, face a 123WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 124WH

[Lilian Greenwood] she will listen to the debate a little bit more, rather than read a prepared speech, which was a party political cost-of-living crisis. Household bills are going up as a rant. The issue is not party political, and we had agreed result of rising prices, wages are stagnant for those in before the debate started that the previous Government work and many people face unemployment, including had done brilliantly when they were in power. Previous nearly 1 million young people, as today’s figures show. Governments have tried hard. We were left with a They have to rely on benefits, which are not keeping difficult economic situation. One of reasons why the pace with inflation. How on earth will they cope with previous Government had not done more was because the 28% increase in rail fares planned for the next three it was difficult and expensive to do so. If we all admitted years? that, we would get a proper debate in the future. Disabled people face the additional worry that scrapping Before I begin, I apologise to the hon. Member for disability living allowance and replacing it with the Wigan. I am not the Minister responsible for the portfolio; personal independence payment might mean that they I do roads and shipping. The Minister responsible is lose the help that they have been receiving with the extra away on other ministerial business, and in my response I costs of mobility. That fear is particularly acute for will not be able to answer directly many questions that disabled people in residential care, including young have been raised by hon. Members today. Each individual people living in residential schools and colleges. As it will be written to by the Minister responsible and the stands, the Welfare Reform Bill will remove the mobility officials. component of PIP from those young people, even though there is no evidence of the double funding that the Lisa Nandy: I am grateful to the Minister for stepping Government claim. What discussions has the Minister in at short notice to cover his colleague’s brief. Will he had with his colleagues in the Department for Work take a request back to his colleague to meet me and a and Pensions about their internal review of those proposals? small number of representatives from some of the Will he update us on their progress? campaigns that I have mentioned to put to his colleague Disabled people already face barriers to their inclusion directly some of our concerns and proposals? I am and participation in society. The Government should be concerned that the issue could get lost as part of a wider on their side, breaking down those barriers, not building Government agenda. them even higher. How will the Minister do that? What assessment has his Department made of the impact on Mike Penning: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. One disabled people’s access to public transport, particularly of the things in the many notes that were being passed that of young disabled people, of his 26% local transport back and forth here was that that would take place and funding cut? Will his Government’s decision to increase that I would put my colleague on the spot, because the rail fares by 3% above inflation for the next three years hon. Lady asked for a working group. Yes, we will have have a disproportionate impact on disabled people? If a working group while other proposals go forward. so, how will he militate against it? Has he assessed how That is certainly important. the loss of ticket-office staff will affect disabled passengers In my constituency—we are all constituency MPs at and what are his conclusions? heart—I have raised such issues to my own station, As the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee where the lift is out of operation. The station is managed goes up in smoke as part of the bonfire of the quangos, by London Midland. I have had detailed and quite how will the Minister ensure that disabled people, including strong conversations before I became a Minister, and young disabled people, are properly consulted on decisions certainly since. that can have a profound impact on their lives? As we There is often no sense as to why certain things have heard today, disabled access to public transport is happen. A profoundly deaf and blind constituent of an issue in constituencies across the country. He needs mine had long been campaigning for a suitable bus for a to explain why disabled people are being asked to bear disabled person to stop in my town centre, and it is there the brunt of his Department’s spending cuts. and has happened, which is great. However, the stop is next to a river and the railings have been taken down. 3.46 pm Probably no one would believe that, but imagine someone who is blind, like my constituent, getting off the bus The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport where the railings have been taken away and there is a (Mike Penning): As always, it is a pleasure and honour river. Although it is not deep, we know what the problems to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. May would be. What was the logic of that? Where were the I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa brain cells when that decision was made? Who knows Nandy), not only for the work that she has done today, what engineer decided to do that, but, as a constituency but for her career at The Children’s Society and Centrepoint? MP, I shall find out. She has been a stalwart of the disability lobby for many The points that have been raised today cross a spectrum years, and I am sure that she will be here for many years of disabilities. Very often we talk about those who are to come. wheelchair bound. The problem is that there are a It was a pleasure listening to the debate. It is a shame plethora of different types of wheelchair. A lovely young that some colleagues have not stayed. There is a problem man called Jack asked if he could do his work experience with this Chamber sometimes; people say their bit and with me in the House of Commons—this story relates then disappear, which I think is wrong, no matter which to what the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy side of the House they are from. The debate was going Corbyn) said about the state of the Palace and its lack well until the brand new shadow Minister, the hon. of accessibility. I said yes to the work experience and a Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), risk assessment and an access assessment were carried stood up. I welcome her to her post. Perhaps in future out. The answer was then no, because they could not 125WH Public Transport (Disabled Access)12 OCTOBER 2011 Public Transport (Disabled Access) 126WH accommodate the size of Jack’s wheelchair. Well, in the straight on the phone to Boris Johnson who will make end we did. It was a long-drawn-out route around the sure that these programmes are reinstated. Have I got a Palace, as I was in Norman Shaw at the time, but we did deal there? Is that okay? it. So often, we are told why we cannot do something instead of how we can do something. Mike Penning: I will do a deal with the hon. Gentleman. Jack and one of my closest friends who sustained If he writes to me, I will pass on his letter to the some of the worst injuries in the London bombings and Minister responsible who will then be in contact with survived spoke to me about the matter. They said, Boris. I am trying to think of the station that has had “Don’t keep wrapping us up in cotton wool. We’ll tell the lift installed. you how we can do things. We’ll tell you how we can get there, rather than you telling us.” That is why working Jeremy Corbyn: Green Park. groups and the different lobby groups are so important. Interestingly, when it comes to access into buildings, I Mike Penning: That is right. The lift cost £25 million. was told that we should ask disabled people how much One issue that has been raised is the age of our network. access they need because we are paying through the I do not know if that applies to our buses. Actually, the nose—Jack’s words not mine—for the works. A whole situation in London has dramatically improved because industry has grown up around access into buildings for all buses have disabled access now. Although we have disabled people. Actually, the whole matter could be more modern trains, our stations and platforms are a dealt with much more simply and easily. massive issue for all constituency MPs. Why on earth would they want to put the toilets two floors up in Cambridge? I know exactly where the hon. Jack Dromey: I thank the Minister for his constructive Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) is talking about response to the proposal of my hon. Friend the Member because my daughter is studying at the Anglia Ruskin for Wigan for a wider discussion to take place and the college in Cambridge and has a Saturday job in the establishment of a working group. That is welcome place mentioned. The question that we must ask, as indeed. May I just ask him about the specific issue of constituency MPs and Ministers, is why. Tell me the the changes being proposed by London Midland? Given reason why that has happened and why we are in that that the proposals are now on the Secretary of State’s position? As I mentioned earlier, I will pass on any desk, will he facilitate a meeting with the RNIB, Mencap question that I cannot answer this afternoon to my and the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign because it is colleague who will then respond in writing. important that their voices are heard before a final All front-line rail staff are supposed to be trained, decision is made? but will it make any difference if they do not have the will, inclination or empathy to help? One thing that we Mike Penning: The point that I was going to get to is can all do is to say to young people, “Let us be your the urgency of some issues, including the one that the voice.” That is what we are here for. They do not want hon. Gentleman has just mentioned. It is the Minister to fill in survey forms; they have had enough of that. I of State who is responsible for that issue. I will put a say, “Just give us a little whisper and tell us on what note on her desk tomorrow asking if that meeting can train or on what bus a member of staff was rude to you take place. I am not responsible any further than that, or did not do what they should have done.” It is amazing, but I will do what I say and anyone who knows me will colleagues, what a letter or a size 10 boot from an MP say that that is the case. can do to energise employers to look at what their staff I thank the hon. Member for Wigan, who is relatively are doing. new in the House, for giving the Minister a list of the questions that she wants answered; it is ever so helpful. Dr Huppert: When the Minister argues that we should Notes are flying back and forth and I must have 20 notes offer to be the voice of some of these people, I assume sitting on my desk here. Clearly, I will not be able to that he would also support the various parliament-type answer all of them in the four minutes that I have left organisations that enable disabled people to be their and I am not going to try. I do not wish to have a pop at own voices and to represent themselves much more the hon. Member for Nottingham South. I remember strongly. sitting in the same seat as a shadow Health Minister for almost exactly the same amount of time that she has Mike Penning: Such organisations do a fantastic job, been in the House. It is an honour and a privilege to be but we need to ensure that there is access to this place. in this place whether in government or in opposition. The all-party parliamentary groups, of which my hon. Sometimes it may seem difficult especially when one Friend is a member—I was chairman of several all thinks of the huge number of civil servants backing the party groups when I was a Back Bencher—are about Minister and writing his speeches for him. However, I access. They are not just talking shops. They are there must say that I have not read the speech that they wrote to say that people have the right to come forward. for me. Well, I read it last night and did not like it. They It is a requirement of rail employers to ensure that will get used to me; I am just that way. their front-line staff have the right sort of training. Let me stress again that all the points that have been raised are about tone and about people’s rights. I know Jeremy Corbyn: I thank the Minister for giving way; that we are not allowed to indicate who is in the Public he has been generous with his time. I am interested in Gallery in Westminster Hall, but we are privileged that his point about writing letters. If I forward a letter to people have come here, sometimes in very difficult him from Disability Action in Islington concerning the circumstances, to express their rights and to say, “Why cancellation of the step-free access programme to am I getting a bum deal compared with other people?”—I the London underground, I am sure that he will be do not know how Hansard will work that one out, but 127WH Public Transport (Disabled Access) 12 OCTOBER 2011 128WH

[Mike Penning] Violence against Women and Girls there we are. The situation is fundamentally wrong, but 4pm it is not easy to resolve. I hate the word “targets” but we have targets for 2020, which the companies will have to Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Thank meet. In the hon. Member for Wigan’s constituency, you very much, Mr Robertson, for calling me to speak. there will be a franchise change in 2013. I am conscious It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. of her question, and the Minister responsible will respond Although I am delighted to have secured this debate to it. I also need to know what rail operator she refers on the prevention of violence against women and girls, I to. Perhaps she can write to me and let me know. We got wish that it was unnecessary. However, the facts and rid of guards vans in 2004. If that was a comment, it figures on gendered violence remain so alarming that it might have been sarcastic, but it was also manifestly is clear that, as a society, we are still failing to approach incorrect. There are no guards vans to travel in. the problem with anything like the urgency or seriousness The rail companies operate a taxi service—I do not that it deserves. Currently, two women a week are killed like it because it is a cop-out for them—and the people by a partner or ex-partner and every year 60,000 women to whom the hon. Lady referred should have been are raped. Sexual harassment in schools, communities offered a taxi for the short distance that we are talking and workplaces is routine, and an estimated 6,500 girls about. Instead of one person waiting to be shuttled to in the UK are at risk of female genital mutilation. their destination, which is an appalling situation to be According to the British crime survey, in Brighton in, common sense should have prevailed and a taxi and Hove—where my Brighton, Pavilion constituency should have been ordered to take all four people to their is located—around 25,000 women are likely to experience destination. If the hon. Lady can write to me and tell repeat domestic violence as adults. Last year, 277 women me the name of the company, it would help. People are sought housing advice and 102 homeless applications out there checking up on these companies. It is a huge were made—[Interruption.] rail and bus network but there are people out there checking out what is going on and whether promises, John Robertson (in the Chair): Order. Could we have commitments and franchise agreements are being met. silence at the back, please? Thank you. Instead of being typically British and just putting up Caroline Lucas: As I was saying, 102 homeless with things because that is the way we are, we should applications were made due to domestic violence. Nearly perhaps be more like the German transport people 11,000 women experience physical and emotional violence; whom I met earlier today. They would not put up with more than 2,700 women experience sexual assault; and this because they have a completely different attitude. more than 6,600 women were the focus of stalking. They expect a service and they tell people in no uncertain Those are big figures, but behind each number is a real terms where they should be. Let us speak up on behalf life that has been hugely damaged by this experience. of our constituents. Constituents need to complain to Moreover, 44% of the 264 young people assessed by the their MPs and their MPs should tell us. If that happens, youth offending service in Brighton and Hove in 2009 perhaps we can have a service for the 21st century that had been abused—that is nearly half—and 42% had everyone deserves. experienced domestic violence at home. I therefore welcome the fact that, in its call to end violence against women and girls, the Home Office has recognised the need for a targeted approach to tackle the ongoing scandal of violence against and abuse of women and girls. The Government’s strategy purports to put prevention at its heart, yet I fear that that objective risks being undermined by a lack of joined-up thinking and the policies of other Government Departments. Furthermore, as the domestic violence team at Brighton and Hove city council has told me, in the Government’s strategy, there is no allocated funding for prevention of and early intervention for violence against women. All the money is still being allocated to crisis work, with only limited attention being given to addressing the cause of the problem—in other words, perpetrators’ behaviour. In Brighton and Hove, since 2004, the city has been working specifically with perpetrators to address their abuse and I am proud that it was the first programme to be accredited nationally by Respect. The local authority has committed to maintaining the programme, but due to demand it is not able to accommodate all the referrals. It finds it very difficult to turn away people who want to join the programme, because it is so concerned about the risks that people face if help is not available. That work needs to be properly funded. It should not be made dependent on sympathetic council administrations, or put at risk because of central Government spending 129WH Violence against Women and Girls12 OCTOBER 2011 Violence against Women and Girls 130WH cuts. Brighton and Hove, whose intelligent commissioning All over the UK, women’s organisations are doing on domestic violence is recognised as good practice, has innovative work with these young people, often with a local commitment to developing a strategy on violence only minimal resources. For example, Rise, a charity against women and girls, with work already under way based in Brighton and Hove, delivers a personal, social, to deliver that strategy. However, not many local areas health and economic preventive education programme have the same kind of co-ordinated approach and I on healthy relationships to schools across the city. It is want the Government to consider making it an obligation also currently working to integrate the Women’s Aid that all local authorities must fulfil. “Expect Respect” programme into work that is currently As well as the historical focus on tackling the aftermath taking place in primary schools. Rise also delivers “Break of violence, such as bringing perpetrators to court, we for Change”, a groundbreaking group for young people must ensure that preventing violence in the first place is who are aggressive in their relationships. That group is much more of a priority across Government. Let us for the young people’s carers, too. The Home Office take, for example, work with young people in schools. itself is currently running a campaign called, “This is The importance of that work is underlined by the abuse”, which is aimed at tackling teenage relationship findings of an NSPCC study, which revealed that almost abuse. half—43%—of teenage girls believe that it is acceptable However, work to prevent violence against women for a boyfriend to be aggressive towards a female partner. and girls cannot be left to occasional campaigns or One in two boys and one in three girls believe that there women’s organisations working in partnership with good are some circumstances in which it is okay to hit a schools where they can. It must be an absolutely integral woman or force her to have sex. part of education and policy that is delivered in every single school. Young people in Britain not only have an alarmingly tolerant attitude to violence against women but many of Unfortunately, it appears that the Department for them are exposed daily to the results of our failure to Education is dragging its feet on this issue. The commitment confront such attitudes head-on. For example, a YouGov to teaching sexual consent in personal, social and health poll for the End Violence Against Women Coalition education is welcome, but it needs to go much further found that a third of girls are subjected to unwanted and include all forms of violence against women, including sexual contact at school, with sexual harassment being teenage relationship abuse, forced marriage, FGM and routine. In addition, the NSPCC found that 33% of sexual exploitation. It should also be linked to work on girls between 13 and 17 who are in an intimate partner gender equality and work that challenges gender stereotypes. relationship have experienced some sort of sexual partner Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I just wanted to draw on violence. Although there has been an increased focus on some of the experience that I have gained from the other forms of bullying, many schools fail to recognise Education Committee. As I understand it, only three that unwanted sexual contact, sexual harassment and hours of teacher training time is dedicated to behaviour sexual name-calling are also specific forms of abuse and discipline in schools throughout a two or three-year that girls suffer routinely. degree course. There is very little hope that we can even Girls from ethnic minority backgrounds may face start to explore the issues affecting young women who additional risks. The Home Affairs Committee recently face violence and give them any sort of strategy if the reported that schools are failing to respond to girls who teachers have absolutely no awareness of behaviour and are at risk of forced marriage and may even be putting behaviour training. There needs to be a concerted effort female students in greater danger. We will wait and see from the Minister’s Department to work with the DFE if forcing someone into a marriage becomes an offence to deal with that problem. in its own right, as the Prime Minister has indicated that it should be. I hope very much that he will introduce Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Member for her legislation on that issue. intervention. I did not know that particular piece of information and it makes me even more alarmed than I was when I first stood up to speak. It shows that this Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): issue is part of a much bigger issue, which is about The hon. Lady made an important point about early ensuring that our teachers are properly equipped to intervention and prevention, particularly in relation to pass on that vital training. girls. Does she agree that we must do a lot more in It is interesting that Education Ministers have signalled schools and that we must talk to our girls about self- that they want these issues to remain outside of the empowerment, self-esteem, gender equality and statutory curriculum, running the risk that many young empowerment? Does she agree that we need to do much women and men will never be exposed to education more in those areas? designed to reduce gendered violence. Cuts to specialist local-level posts, such as domestic violence co-ordinators Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Member for her and teenage pregnancy co-ordinators, risk exacerbating intervention, not least because I know that she has a the problem even further. great deal of expertise in this area, and of course I In its report, “A Different World is Possible”, the End absolutely agree with what she says. It is also interesting Violence Against Women Coalition recommends a “whole that young women themselves tell us that they want school approach”, with heads taking a lead, teachers things to change. Around 52% of young women who been trained on the issues and all students receiving were polled said that ending domestic violence against comprehensive sex and relationships education on consent, women and children is the issue that they care most equality and respect. That is already a top priority in about. That is according to research carried out by Brighton and Hove—it builds on work by a number of Girlguiding UK in conjunction with the Fawcett Society, the agencies I mentioned earlier. The local authority’s the British Youth Council and Populus. strategy states: 131WH Violence against Women and Girls12 OCTOBER 2011 Violence against Women and Girls 132WH

[Caroline Lucas] other social injustices. As just one example of what happens if we fail to do that, Frances Crook, chief “Evidence shows that to be effective in domestic violence executive of the Howard League for Penal Reform, tells prevention work, addressing the issue in PSHE and SRE lessons me that more than a third of girls in the youth justice or in assemblies has limited impact and value, if the messages system have experienced abuse, and a quarter have promoted are not supported by other initiatives and the broader witnessed violence at home. Of the more than 4,000 ethos of the school.” women currently serving a prison sentence, more than I therefore ask the Minister to call on her colleagues at half report having suffered domestic violence and one the Department for Education to clearly identify one in three have experienced sexual abuse. For the vast single Education Minister to lead on preventing violence majority of those very vulnerable women, prison is not against women and girls. I also ask her to tell us what the answer, and that is why both I and the Howard contribution she has made to the Department for League for Penal Reform support community solutions Education’s internal review on PSHE, and whether she for non-violent women offenders. I am keen, therefore, has argued the case for sexual consent and all forms of to see the Government’s target interventions to ensure violence against women to be a compulsory part of the the prevention of violence against women and girls curriculum. address intersections of gender with other social inequalities. Yesterday, the Prime Minister hosted a summit on I stress that the Government’s work on preventing tackling the commercialisation and sexualisation of children, violence against women and girls needs to encompass and announced a range of policies, many of which I an international perspective. Here too, we see evidence warmly welcome. However, amid the messages about of a lack of leadership and concerns about co-ordination. consumer and parent power, there was an element missing: There are now a number of very welcome Government empowering young people themselves to be media literate strategies that reference international violence against and to cope with the bombardment of often inappropriate women and girls, so oversight of all the different processes images. Although I recognise that the measures announced is vital and, for maximum impact, the different strategies will go some way towards cutting down on the images and policies across Government should be coherent and that young people are exposed to—outside schools, for mutually reinforcing. example—we can safely say that this is only the tip of the iceberg. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Is it Like any parent, I absolutely understand the desire to not important to bring the international communities protect our children, and one of the best ways of doing into this, the women and girls of different nationalities so is through specific education that allows young people with different cultural backgrounds? The Prime Minister to be more in control of their sexualisation, rather than will be attending a conference in a couple of weeks’ time being dictated to by the media or by advertising. There at which he should raise that point, so that we can get is no plan as yet, however, specifically to address that in the international communities behind us. schools. Earlier, I noted that central Government cuts might Caroline Lucas: I completely agree with the hon. undermine efforts being made to tackle violence against Gentleman’s important intervention. women and girls, and I am particularly concerned about At the highest level, a member of the National Security cuts to legal aid. Informing women of their legal rights Council should have explicit responsibility for women, and giving them access to legal representation is one peace and security, to ensure that gender perspectives way of empowering them and of trying to protect them are taken into account in all discussions. Despite some against violence. It can give them the information they references in the “Building Stability Overseas Strategy” need to stand up to their abuser. There are serious risk document, and in the UK national action plan for the implications, therefore, for women who cannot access implementation of UN Security Council resolution 1325 legal aid. By reducing women’s ability to access legal on women, peace and security, violence against women aid, the Ministry of Justice risks damaging work at the and girls is still not fully recognised as either a foreign Home Office on preventing violence against women policy priority or a security matter. It is not recognised and girls, and I would love to know whether the Minister as both a cause and a consequence of conflict. When shares my concerns about that. violent conflict occurs, violence against women and I also wonder whether the Minister is dismayed by girls is not seen as a priority matter. the Home Secretary’s proposal to change the eligibility The UK Government must take a leadership role requirements under paragraph 289A—the domestic violence internationally, to ensure that preventing violence against rule—of the immigration rules. That would mean that women and girls stays on the international agenda. all applicants under the domestic rule must be free of Globally, about one in three women or girls have been unspent criminal convictions. That actively undermines beaten or sexually abused in their lifetime, and 75% of the Government’s commitment to eliminate violence the civilians killed in war are women and children, so I against women. Will the Minister contribute to the UK am keen to hear from the Minister what has been Border Agency consultation, and remind the Home achieved, or what has changed in our approach to Secretary about the coalition Government’s obligations violence against women as a foreign policy issue, since and commitment to protect all women from domestic she was appointed to the role of overseas champion violence? about a year ago. The Equality Trust points out that 24% of women in Britain are worried about rape, and that all kinds of Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) violence are more common in more unequal societies. It (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this stands to reason that preventing violence against women important debate and on her excellent and comprehensive and girls is closely linked to tackling inequality and speech. I agree that the international effort that we must 133WH Violence against Women and Girls12 OCTOBER 2011 Violence against Women and Girls 134WH be part of, and lead, is important, but it is vital that we Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con) rose— lead by example. Yesterday in the Chamber, concern was expressed about the woefully low level of prosecutions Tessa Munt rose— for human trafficking, which affects many women and young girls, and about our country’s reluctance to take Mr Virendra Sharma rose— the lead on issuing a guardianship programme that would help us to secure those prosecutions. Does she Lynne Featherstone: I will give way to the hon. Member have any thoughts about that? for Lincoln (Karl McCartney) and the hon. Member for Wells (Tessa Munt), but briefly, because I want to Caroline Lucas: The hon. Member is absolutely right answer the questions asked by the hon. Member for to point to the guardianship programme as a concrete Brighton, Pavilion. measure that we could take to show exactly that kind of international leadership. That would make a huge difference Karl McCartney: I congratulate the hon. Member for to some of the most vulnerable people coming into our Brighton, Pavilion on securing this debate and on how communities. I very much support the proposal, and she delivered her speech. Is the Minister aware that of the work that she has been doing on it. every three victims of partner abuse, two are female and I was talking about the Minister’s role as the overseas one male? Is she concerned that successive Governments champion, and I wonder if she can tell us what her have placed all domestic abuse policy under an overarching priorities for that role will be over the coming year. Can violence against women and girls strategy? It means she confirm whether she has a budget with which to that men suffering domestic or sexual abuse are second-class carry out her responsibilities? victims. Effectively, it is institutional sexism. Does she I am mindful that I have asked the Minister a number believe that domestic abuse must be— of questions, so I will wind up now. Making our schools safer for girls, enabling young men to challenge their John Robertson (in the Chair): Order. Generally, one peers, changing attitudes that blame women for violence, question at a time. and ensuring that the equalities team’s work is underscored by the policies of other Departments, are all things that Lynne Featherstone: I assure the hon. Gentleman that would make a genuine difference to the lives of women men are part of our strategy and funding. I will take a and girls here in Britain and around the world. The old quick intervention from the hon. Member for Wells, but adage that prevention is better than cure may well be I want to answer the questions asked by the hon. familiar, but in this case it rings particularly true. Member for Brighton, Pavilion.

Tessa Munt: The problem is particularly acute in rural 4.18 pm areas where there are serious stresses. I am in contact The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): I with the Farm Crisis Network, which is aware that genuinely congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, people in isolated situations also face domestic violence, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) on securing this debate. The and there is practically no possibility that they can get matter is a most important and serious one, both in this to a rape crisis centre, which might be 25 miles away. country and internationally, and I want to assure the Does the Minister have any thoughts on that? hon. Lady that despite the very difficult times we are in, the Government are absolutely committed to nothing Lynne Featherstone: I thank the hon. Lady for making less than ending all forms of violence against women that point. and girls. I, too, wish that it was not necessary to have I agree with the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion such debates, but the statistics in this country are truly that prevention, which is one of the four key planks of terrible, and across the world they are far worse. The our strategy, is extremely important. I assure her that issue is sometimes hidden, so there is a fear and a my Department and I will bring as much pressure to danger that it will be marginalised when priorities compete. bear as possible in discussions for the Department for However, as the first page of the action plan says, Education to get a shift on with its consultation on “VAWG services should not be the easy cut” personal, social and health education, which just finished for local councils. and will be published in November. We regard it as vital, although we do not necessarily regard it as vital I do not know how much more loud or clear we in that it be statutory.We await the results of the consultation. central Government could have made our message. I agree that young people’s attitudes and behaviour are Even in this climate, we are ring-fencing £28 million for vital, and that teachers need training in order to intervene VAWG services and £10 million from the Ministry of successfully. Justice for rape crisis support centres. We are funding independent domestic violence adviser posts, including one in the hon. Lady’s home patch in Brighton and Mr Virendra Sharma rose— Hove. We are also funding Rise. Where we can provide funding, we are, although circumstances are difficult. Lynne Featherstone: I am not taking any more We have done so expressly to send the message that interventions. violence against women is a priority and should not be The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion mentioned vulnerable to cuts from local authorities, although we the teenage relationship abuse campaign. It is one area know that that is happening. Local areas are best placed on which we are spending money. The NSPCC research to make local decisions, but we have tried and are trying that she discussed is shocking. The abuse that teenagers to say to councils—I hope that they read today’s Hansard— seem to accept as normal—they think that it is okay to “Do not cut these vital services.” be treated like that—is the most frightening aspect. I do 135WH Violence against Women and Girls12 OCTOBER 2011 Violence against Women and Girls 136WH

[Lynne Featherstone] Afghanistan at the moment, as well as on the Arab spring, which I want to be a feminist summer, as I am not know whether she has seen the films from the abuse sure the hon. Lady does. campaign, but they are incredibly powerful and successful. The hon. Lady asked about immigration changes. No The site has received more than 75,000 visits. It is not one with a minor conviction has been or will ever be just about the film and the campaign; the purpose is to denied their stay in this country, but neither do the signpost young people towards help. Government think that it is right for different rules to apply if there is a conviction. On legal aid, we are Mr Sharma: Will the Minister give way? keeping legal aid for victims in private family law cases where domestic violence is a feature, and we have not sought to change the accepted definition of domestic Lynne Featherstone: I will not. I am keen to answer violence. We are including all forms of domestic violence, the hon. Lady’s points, as it is her debate. physical and mental, in legal aid criteria. The hon. Lady asked me about my role of international The hon. Lady mentioned forced marriage, which has champion in tackling violence against women and girls. been in the news recently. The Prime Minister has made The other half of that is policy coherence across Whitehall; it a priority, and we will consult on whether it should it is in the job title. I assure her that when I came into become a criminal offence in its own right. I am keen the post in December, the first thing that I did was that we take evidence, for example from the women engage across Whitehall. Clearly, I will not be effective involved in the 257 forced marriage protection orders on my own in tackling worldwide violence against women taken out under civil orders. We should ask those women and girls, unless I find a multiplier for the work that I whether they would have come forward had forced am doing. I have done so, and have developed numerous marriage been a criminal offence. In my view, the only messages on women and on lesbian, gay, bisexual and reason not to make it an offence is that doing so might transgender issues. Travelling Ministers have agreed to prohibit people from coming forward, which would take those messages to international meetings and raise undermine the benefits of sending a message that it is them wherever they go. The issue at the moment is serious enough to be criminal. finding out who is going where and when, but it is an I cite the issue of female genital mutilation, which is a important step. I reassure the hon. Lady that I have criminal offence. The Opposition ask me every time we nothing but support from the Foreign Secretary and the have oral questions whether there have been any Secretary of State for International Development. They prosecutions. There have not, either under the Labour are absolutely committed to the human rights agenda, Government or during the year and a half that we have and I argue that equal rights are human rights. been in government, because it is difficult to get evidence and make people come forward. I am keen that whatever Caroline Lucas: While we are on the role of the we do should promote the best result in dealing with overseas champion, will the Minister clarify whether forced marriage. We know that there is great pressure, she has a budget for any part of that work? and the law may well change. The Prime Minister has announced that we will criminalise breaches of civil orders in the interim while we consult on the matter. Lynne Featherstone: I do, and a little bit of help, However, I am not keen on messages; I am keen on although not as much as I would like. I have been to getting it right. That is more important. India and Nepal. I am working at three levels on such We as a Government have moved forward proactively. trips. I cannot go gallivanting across the world; I have a We have introduced domestic homicide reviews and limited budget, and it is a matter of where I can get pilots on domestic violence protection orders. If they maximum traction on the issue. For example, in India, I prove successful, we will roll them out. We have extended met with the India Women’s Press Corps, which carried the Sojourner project and will find a long-term solution. messages about gender-based violence across India and We are fast-tracking asylum applications for those in into every publication. I am trying to maximise bang for refuges who, due to their asylum status, have no recourse buck. I am meeting at the ministerial and permanent to public funds. I hope that hon. Members agree that we secretary level as well as in civil society. I am also are on the right path to making society a better and visiting projects involving women in rural villages. I am safer place where women and girls do not have to live in going to Brussels on Tuesday to carry some of those fear of violence or lack support when they need it. issues forward, including LGBT issues. My eyes are on These are tough times, but we are doing our very best. 137WH 12 OCTOBER 2011 Commonwealth Partners (Resources 138WH and Co-operation) Commonwealth Partners (Resources and We get all that from the Commonwealth for just 20p Co-operation) per citizen a year, as opposed to the £54 a year it costs us to be a member of the European Union. I promise to move on from the EU, but there has been a perception 4.30 pm in recent years—this was certainly the perception in Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): It is a pleasure many of our Commonwealth partner nations—that to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Robertson. The when we joined the EU, we in some ways turned our subject of this debate is sharing resources and co-operation back on the Commonwealth. I pay tribute to the with Commonwealth partners, which I feel passionate Government, particularly the Foreign Secretary, who in about. I do not think that, in recent years, this country recent months has made it clear that the Commonwealth has necessarily put the sort of emphasis that we should is very much a part, and an increasingly important one, have on our relationship with our Commonwealth partners, of our foreign policy as we progress. That should not be so I would like a response from the Minister. viewed as an EU-versus-Commonwealth argument, but it is clear that, when we entered the EU, there was a It is important to recognise what the Commonwealth perception that in some way we left behind the is and the important role that it plays around the world, Commonwealth. I have my own view on the EU, but we especially in our own country.It is made up of 54 sovereign need not get into that today. nations and contains 31% of the global population—about 2 billion people—more than half of whom are 25 or The Commonwealth has a huge role to play in aid under, so the Commonwealth and its population really and development overseas. Although that is not strictly are the future. It contains the world’s largest, smallest, part of the Minister’s portfolio, it is important that we richest and poorest countries, and its members span six refresh ourselves with some of the relevant statistics. continents and oceans, from Africa, Asia, the Americas India provides about £7 million a year to 19 African and, of course, Europe. There are 44 Commonwealth members. Indeed, Australia has recently increased its countries in the G77, which will be an increasingly commitment to Commonwealth countries in Africa, important body, and five in the G20—Australia, Canada, which is something to which the UK Government are India, South Africa and the United Kingdom. Nineteen also committed. of the 39 African Union members are from the I mentioned trade briefly in my introductory remarks. Commonwealth. Similarly, 10 nations in the Pacific The Commonwealth is an incredibly important player Islands Forum are Commonwealth nations. Indeed, in trade internationally. It is important that we as even two countries in the European Union—Malta and a Government demonstrate that, while our trading ourselves—are members of the Commonwealth. relationship with the EU is important, there are huge The Commonwealth is also a massive trade body, opportunities available to us in the Commonwealth, with $3 trillion of trade taking place within it each year. which is, in itself, collectively responsible for more than We hear a lot about our trading relationship within 20% of world trade, about 20% of investment, and Europe, but considering the fact that the Commonwealth approximately 20% of the world’s gross domestic product. includes economies such as India’s, it is clear that the Between them, Commonwealth nations imported some possibilities for trade growth within the Commonwealth $2.3 trillion-worth of goods and exported $2.1 trillion-worth are massive. in 2008 alone. We should promote intra-Commonwealth trade and ensure that the Commonwealth plays a key Commonwealth countries comprise a third of the role in new international markets, particularly considering destinations for our exports. When both trading partners the emergence of economies in Asia, Africa and Latin are Commonwealth members, the value of trade is America. India will be an economic and democratic likely to be a third to half more than when one or both powerhouse. It is in the Commonwealth, so we have are non-Commonwealth. Indeed, five of the top 10 links and relationships, and could be making so much countries in which to do business are Commonwealth more of them. countries. As a body, the Commonwealth might be rooted in history, but its best potential lies in the future. Turning to the Minister’s responsibilities, the greatest potential for growth might lie in foreign policy and the Don McKinnon, a former Secretary-General of the Commonwealth’s soft power. I hope to hear from him Commonwealth, has said: what the UK’s vision is for the Commonwealth and any “One of the standard misconceptions about the Commonwealth common foreign policy aims. I suppose that the advantage is that it is merely a ‘relic of the Empire’... The truth is that the Commonwealth is a unique organization, which provides an of a common foreign policy agenda in the Commonwealth international forum where each member country can have its is that that does not come through diktat, as might be voice heard and increase its weight in world affairs. It is a family true of other organisations. It is about coming together of nations, whose members share not only a common identity, but and sharing broad aims and principles, and working common values and a common sense of purpose.” towards them. Moreover, there is no infringement on I would argue that it also shares a common future. any nation’s sovereignty. The Commonwealth has shifting focuses—from foreign I and many others have said that the Commonwealth affairs, particularly the promotion of democracy and embodies the diversity of race, ethnicity, religion, political human rights, to science and technology, and the role of institutions and liberalism that characterises the reality women, which has been its focus this year—and it plays of globalisation. Opportunities are available. By working a vital role in education. I know from my former together, we could have a major impact on international profession as a teacher that Commonwealth teachers affairs and developmental issues in particular, which is and students are involved in strong education programmes something to which the Commonwealth Heads of and links. It is to be regretted, however, that Commonwealth Government meeting reaffirmed its commitment. citizens who come to this country are forced to pay fees I want to press the Minister on the Government’s to study in UK universities that European Union citizens vision for the future of the Commonwealth. I have do not. mentioned sharing resources. Discussions have taken 139WH Commonwealth Partners (Resources 12 OCTOBER 2011 Commonwealth Partners (Resources 140WH and Co-operation) and Co-operation) [Andrew Percy] The Commonwealth is rooted in history, but it is also about the future. Let us consider the statistics on the place between other Commonwealth countries—perhaps percentage of the world’s population, particularly young we have been involved in some of them—about this people, and on international trade, investment and where country’s massive network of overseas missions and those emerging markets are. Let us park what is happening foreign embassies. The UK alone has, I think, more in the eurozone and the collapse of European economies than 300 foreign missions. Canada, which is a country and look to where the future is. The future is in those with which I am acquainted, has more than 260. That markets and in those regions of the world where the massive international Commonwealth network offers Commonwealth has links, both historical and actual, us huge potential, particularly at a time of fiscal restraint, that no other organisation or international body has, when we are making tough decisions about our overseas with the possible exception of the United Nations, missions. In this country, we do not necessarily always although that is variable. There is a chance for the get the sense of the importance of the Commonwealth Government to restate their absolute commitment to that we get when we visit other Commonwealth countries. the Commonwealth. A Canadian passport states, as clear as day, that if the In the two or three minutes remaining, I shall put my passport holder needs help overseas they should head questions to the Minister. I apologise for not being able to a Canadian embassy or, if none exists, to a British to send him my questions in advance, but I ended up embassy. There is the potential for us to share some of putting this information together at a late stage because our resources for foreign missions with like-minded of various clashes. What is the Government’s vision for nations that are also making tough fiscal decisions. the Commonwealth? What progress has been made on Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): I congratulate my the Foreign Secretary’s 2010 statement that the FCO hon. Friend and near geographical neighbour on the would subject of his debate. He has touched on a few “lead a co-ordinated cross Whitehall approach to help the Commonwealth issues that have chimed with me. For Commonwealth achieve its potential and which underlines the example, he just mentioned passports. Through my role United Kingdom’s commitment to this unique global organisation”? with the Sir Keith Park memorial campaign, I am aware I would like to get a sense from the Government of that many people from New Zealand, South Africa and what areas of policy co-operation they feel could best other countries that are part of the Commonwealth and help to promote the values of the Commonwealth and that helped us during the second world war—such those elements of economic development and trade that countries feel an affinity to our nation—think that the are so important. Given the fiscal pressures on the changes made to visa rules in recent years under the United Kingdom and other countries, has the FCO yet previous Labour Government have not treated them considered sharing foreign missions and other resources very well. Obviously, I hope he agrees that it is time to internationally with our Commonwealth partners? The put back what they have given us over the years and to research paper “UK Defence and Security Policy: A treat them in the way that fellow Commonwealth members New Approach?”, published in January, contains the should be treated. following Government quote: Andrew Percy: I thank my hon. Friend and next-door- “We want to strengthen the Commonwealth as a focus for but-one or two neighbour—anyway, he is a fellow promoting democratic values and development”. Lincolnshire Member—for that intervention. We would all agree with that and I hope to hear the When I return to the United Kingdom, I am offended Minister’s view on achieving it. that people are pushed along through the European As my hon. Friends said in their interventions, there Union channel. Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Germans is the potential for the Commonwealth to move forward and French people are able to walk through those and be one of the most important bodies internationally channels, but our own brethren from Canada, Australia during the next few decades, particularly given the and other Commonwealth countries are made to feel development taking place there. While bearing in mind very much like foreigners. Of course, Commonwealth the United Kingdom’s relationship with Europe, its citizens are not foreigners when they come to this transatlantic relationships and so on, we need to ensure country, nor are we foreigners when we visit Commonwealth that at the heart of policy making is a commitment to countries. That is not something I was going to raise working to improve and further develop Commonwealth with the Minister, but it is a good point that I hope will relationships. The previous Government did not seem be heard by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, to pay much attention to the Commonwealth—the fact and as my hon. Friend says, it is about time that we that no Opposition Members are here perhaps suggests treated those fellow Commonwealth citizens with dignity that that is still the case—but this Government think and respect. We should at least put them on an equal differently. I hope that the Minister will take on board footing with other citizens. some of my points. I look forward to his response. Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for securing this important debate. We have mentioned 4.45 pm the point about passport control. Is it not also right that, with the Queen’s forthcoming diamond jubilee, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign this is the perfect opportunity for us to reassert our and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): I relationship with Commonwealth countries, particularly congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and in terms of economic resources and co-operation? Goole (Andrew Percy) on securing the opportunity to discuss this issue and pay tribute to him for his excellent Andrew Percy: I thank my hon. Friend for that speech. I will do my best to answer the questions that he intervention. The diamond jubilee next year is an absolutely posed. I am also grateful to my hon. Friends the Members fantastic opportunity for us to show that. for Erewash (Jessica Lee) and for Lincoln (Karl McCartney) 141WH Commonwealth Partners (Resources 12 OCTOBER 2011 Commonwealth Partners (Resources 142WH and Co-operation) and Co-operation) for their interventions. The debate has shown that there who is detained or hospitalised, they will look to hand is a great deal of support and interest in the Commonwealth over responsibility to the individual’s nearest embassy in Parliament. to provide support. With some countries, notably Australia, It is important to note that enduring historical links those informal arrangements bring significant benefits form the basis of the strong bonds that join Commonwealth to British nationals, particularly in the Pacific region countries together and that, even though those historical where Australia’s diplomatic network is extensive. links have roots in the 19th century, they form one of When a country has been suspended from the Councils the platforms that is most suited to the world of the 21st of the Commonwealth, we may still be able to provide century. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and consular assistance to its citizens. That is particularly so Goole pointed out, the UK has upgraded its relationship if the suspension was not aimed at ordinary citizens of with the Commonwealth substantially. Under this the country. I refer particularly to Zimbabwe, which left Government, we now have a Minister for the the Commonwealth before it was suspended, where our Commonwealth, who has firmly put the “C” back into dispute was not with the country’s citizens, but with the the FCO. I thank my hon. Friend for the praise he gave people running the country. to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary; he feels Let me make it clear that the UK can take no equally strongly about the matter. responsibility for other Commonwealth citizens in We are working with member states to help the Commonwealth countries. In those circumstances, organisation to realise its full potential to become a unrepresented Commonwealth citizens can turn to the stronger force for promoting democratic values, host Commonwealth Government for assistance. We development and prosperity, and trade. Before I comment would expect the Commonwealth country concerned to on the specific issues raised, let me put the Government’s make other arrangements if the host Government do relations with the Commonwealth into context. We not accept their responsibility towards unrepresented look to the Commonwealth as a key multilateral Commonwealth nationals. organisation, a ready-made network and an ideal platform On visas, under an unwritten convention agreed at a for future co-operation in a rapidly changing global previous Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting, landscape. As the Prime Minister has said, Britain’s UK visa issuing posts in non-Commonwealth countries active membership of the Commonwealth is at the issue visas on behalf of Commonwealth countries. That heart of our foreign policy. It is in the UK’s interests to is obviously good news. The convention does not apply be part of a strengthened Commonwealth, as it has a where a Commonwealth country either has a visa issuing membership that includes many of the fastest growing mission established in that country, or has special and most technologically advanced economies in the arrangements. Commonwealth partners for whom the world. UK issues visas vary from post to post and that reflects The Commonwealth already contributes significantly demand. For example, India is one of the biggest to international affairs, brokering agreements between beneficiaries of that service, with more than 100 UK African neighbours and calming tensions in fragile states posts issuing visas on its behalf. during contested elections. It also provides a forum for I take on board what my hon. Friend said about smaller nations who may feel that their voices are lost in immigration controls and ports of entry. In some ways, larger multilateral structures. I particularly point out it irks all of us that we do not even have a UK channel the Commonwealth’s role in providing election monitors. coming into our own country; it is an EU channel. So far this year, it has done so in Nigeria, Zambia and, People have asked me whether it would be better to have indeed, will do so in the forthcoming elections in Cameroon. a channel for citizens of countries where the Queen is Commonwealth observers have been very much part of head of state, which would include the overseas territories, different observer and monitoring teams in those countries. the realms and a number of Commonwealth countries. They are respected and are acceptable to host countries. That is not just in the hands of the Foreign Office, but The Commonwealth is made up not just of the my hon. Friend has made his point, and we will take it Governments of its member states, but of a multitude on board and look at it. of non-governmental and civil society organisations Our embassies and our representation abroad are and networks, which contribute, as the secretary-general very important. I will just correct my hon. Friend on of the organisation said, one point. We have 192 missions around the world. I “to the great global good”. wish we did have the number that he gave. The Government Turning to the issues discussed today, we enjoy a long have extended the network—in fact, we have opened history of mutual support among Commonwealth new embassies; the previous Government closed countries. On the consular side, which my hon. Friend embassies—in Africa in particular. We are reopening mentioned, during the Libya crisis, in the space of a few our embassy in Madagascar. We are reopening our days, the UK evacuated more than 800 UK nationals embassy in Abidjan. We will reopen our embassy in and more than 1,000 other nationals from more than 50 Somalia as soon as the security situation allows, and we countries, many of which were Commonwealth countries. have opened a new embassy in Juba, in South Sudan, a During normal times, Commonwealth nationals in country that has applied for membership of the difficulty in non-Commonwealth countries where they Commonwealth. We are reinforcing a number of our do not have any diplomatic or consular representation missions in African countries that are Commonwealth of their own may turn to any other Commonwealth countries. I am sure that my hon. Friend approves embassy for consular assistance. So where a Commonwealth of that. national does not have representation in a non- In seeking to manage the Foreign and Commonwealth Commonwealth country, our embassies may provide Office overseas estate and to deliver the best possible first response assistance. Once British consular staff value for money, the Government always consider whether have provided initial assistance by contacting someone there is a sound business case for co-location. That 143WH Commonwealth Partners (Resources 12 OCTOBER 2011 Commonwealth Partners (Resources 144WH and Co-operation) and Co-operation) [Mr Henry Bellingham] where it can really make a difference. It offers an important opportunity to shape the future role of the might be as part of a drive towards closer working Commonwealth, a role that will have more impact on relations between the FCO and other Government our networked world. Departments that are represented overseas—for example, We want a strengthened Commonwealth Ministerial operating from the same platform and sharing common Action Group that protects our values, but also offers services. We already look at co-locating with other encouragement to those facing challenges to democratic countries’ representations, including those from various development. The Commonwealth is ideally placed to Commonwealth countries. In every case, our approach tackle the global issues facing us today, not least in the is the same: to ensure that we achieve the best possible current economic downturn. As my hon. Friend pointed combination of operational capability, value for money, out, the membership includes many of the great markets and the safety and security of those working for the of today and tomorrow. The middle class in the British Government overseas. Commonwealth has expanded by nearly 1 billion in the I assure my hon. Friend that very often we look to past 20 years, and over $3 trillion worth of trade Commonwealth countries to form such a partnership. happens every year in the Commonwealth. Its importance We are building partnerships with our Commonwealth in the world trading community is huge; it is vital to the partners on this issue where it makes sense for us to do recovery that western economies are going to make, so. For example, our high commission in Bamako is largely through an export-led drive. We want the co-located with the Canadian representation, and we Commonwealth to lift the prosperity of all its members also sub-let space to the Canadians in Baghdad. We through increased free and fair trade. More democracy allow New Zealand to share our embassy facilities in means greater confidence in investment conditions and Kabul. We are actively exploring other opportunities in creating the environment for business to flourish, that may make a sound business case and offer value for leading to more jobs and greater prosperity. money for Her Majesty’s Government. As I said in my speech to the Royal Commonwealth The UK also shares embassy facilities with non- Society last month, the Commonwealth can also play a Commonwealth partners where it meets our requirements. helpful role in tackling climate change. The diversity Some of these partnerships include co-locating embassies of our economies means that we hold a wide pool of with other countries. For example, when I was in Tanzania, solutions, from governance structures to policies. A I went to Dar Es Salaam, where our high commission united position on climate change at CHOGM would sub-lets space to the Dutch and the Germans. That send a strong signal to the international community makes sense, and there is absolutely no reason at all, ahead of the UN climate conference in Durban in where we build a new high commission or new embassy, November. not to sub-let space to our Commonwealth friends. In On the drive to secure a binding world deal on fact, I can think of one African country where we climate change, most of the countries at the ambitious are looking at a new build and are actively discussing end of the spectrum are Commonwealth countries. that option with a number of our key Commonwealth COP 17 in Durban is the African Conference of the partners. I assure my hon. Friend that we are very much Parties. I have been impressed by the extent to which a on the case. number of key Commonwealth partners have really I would like to say something about the Commonwealth engaged with this agenda, not just looking to support Heads of Government meeting, and hope that this part the UK’s ambitions for a binding global treaty, but of the speech will also answer some of the questions looking at some other areas of crucial importance such posed by my hon. Friend. I would like to conclude by as mitigation and adaptation, the forestry agenda, and informing the House of the UK’s aims for the CHOGM the crucial boost we need to give to renewable technology in Perth later this month. At this meeting, Heads will and renewable transmission. As we push hard the agenda have a chance to consider the recommendations of the of low carbon and high growth, that has a resonance in Eminent Persons Group, to examine the findings of the a lot of Commonwealth countries. They see that they Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group review, and can bypass the stage from early development, miss out to discuss some of the complex global challenges we all on some of the polluting, high-emitting technologies face. I pay tribute to the work done by the EPG. My that we have in the west and go straight to the more right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kensington environmentally friendly green technologies, not just (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) serves on that group in a very for their power solutions but for many of their other distinguished capacity. The group’s report is excellent requirements. That is an exciting agenda and we have and I commend it to my hon. Friend. the support of those countries. The EPG’s recommendations, and those set out in In conclusion, the UK Government are committed to the CMAG review, answer some of the points that my reinvigorating the Commonwealth. We want to strengthen hon. Friend mentioned with regard to his vision of a it as a focus for development, democracy and prosperity. common Commonwealth foreign policy. I do not think My hon. Friend said that he was going to put the “C” that we will go quite as far as he would like to go, but back into the FCO. This is work in progress, but we are there are a number of suggestions in those two reports absolutely determined to keep up the pressure. I am that would certainly please him and which we can grateful to him, because it is knowledge and expertise regard as very positive. The EPG report also contains from parliamentarians such as him that will help us important recommendations on modernisation and we with that agenda. strongly support that part of its work. Its emphasis on Question put and agreed to. democracy, development and good governance in the Commonwealth will help to strengthen the organisation 4.59 pm and focus its work on those core values, particularly Sitting adjourned. 29WS Written Ministerial Statements12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS

at the same evidence (such as contracts/statements of Written Ministerial particulars, pay and work time records) and ask the same questions of employers or agencies, but there Statements remain some legal barriers that prevent enforcement bodies from co-operating with each other, and with other regulatory bodies. Wednesday 12 October 2011 In order for us to be able to make progress on reviewing Government enforcement, I believe that we BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS must review the underpinning regulations as part of the red tape challenge, including whether a lighter-touch Workplace Rights enforcement regime could be implemented where rights are currently enforced by Government. In parallel to this work the Government will continue to consider The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, potential enforcement models, including whether there Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I announced could be benefits from establishing a fair employment to the House in December 2010 that the Government agency to protect the rights of the most vulnerable. I would undertake a review of workplace rights and will report back to the House again on progress in the enforcement to establish the scope to streamline them spring. and make them more effective. The terms of reference for the review were lodged in the parliamentary Library in January this year. In looking at this complex architecture DEFENCE it is clear that we first need to ask a number of questions as part of the red tape challenge, which launched its Libya (Operation Ellamy) spotlight on employment law on 3 October 2011. I draw the House’s attention to the discussion paper, “Flexible, The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): In effective, fair: Promoting economic growth through a a written statement on 23 June 2011, Official Report, strong and efficient labour market” published on this column 24WS, I informed the House that the costs of date, in which we present some of our initial findings Operation Ellamy—the United Kingdom’s contribution and set out the strategic questions for the red tape to coalition operations in support of United Nations challenge spotlight period. Security Council Resolution 1973—for the six months Our initial assessment is that there is significant from mid-March to mid-September were estimated to fragmentation within the enforcement landscape, but be £120 million. I can now update this estimate. this is largely as a consequence of the underpinning regulations. There is no common rationale for determining The revised figure for the whole operation, from those rights that are Government enforced and those mid-March to mid-December, is £160 million. Our estimate that are enforced through tribunals. There is no single of the cost of replenishing munitions used in Libya overarching compliance strategy for Government remains £140 million. As previously announced, the enforcement of workplace rights, nor is there a mechanism additional costs incurred by the Ministry of Defence on for reviewing whether the risk associated with particular Operation Ellamy will be borne by the reserve, and will workplace rights still warrants Government enforcement. be in addition to the core defence budget. The different enforcement bodies have a range of powers and penalties at their disposal, including naming, civil ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE penalties, criminal prosecution, licence revocation and prohibition for a defined period of time. These varying Offshore Energy Strategic Environmental Assessment powers are also a consequence of differences in the underpinning regulations. The creation of the pay and work rights helpline has The Minister of State, Department of Energy and done much to align the work of the different agencies Climate Change (Charles Hendry): I am today announcing and the impact of the fragmentation of the enforcement the outcome of the offshore energy strategic environmental activity has not significantly impacted the experience of assessment (OESEA2) regarding future offshore energy those workers seeking redress through the helpline. developments. However, those furthest from the labour market often In 2009, DECC completed a strategic environmental do not trust Government bodies to act on their behalf, assessment (SEA) of a draft plan/programme to hold perhaps as a consequence of cultural and historical further rounds of offshore leasing for wind and offshore experiences in other countries, or for fear of personal oil and gas licensing in United Kingdom waters (OESEA). consequences. It is essential that the most vulnerable Then in 2010, DECC undertook an exercise to update workers have confidence in their ability to access the and extend the scope of the OESEA environmental protection they need and we are keen to learn lessons report (OESEA2) and issue it for consultation to enable from unions and community groups who have a long further licensing/leasing for offshore energy (oil and track record in reaching these individuals. gas, gas storage including carbon dioxide transport and While all the enforcement bodies have made storage as part of carbon capture and storage (CCS) significant efficiency savings, there is duplication of and offshore marine renewables, including wind, wave activity between the different enforcement bodies. Each and tidal. of the bodies, for example, has separate corporate and The renewable energy elements of the draft plan/ management functions, intelligence assessment and risk programme cover parts of the UK renewable energy evaluation functions. When carrying out enforcement zone and the territorial waters of England and Wales; inspections, the different enforcement bodies often look for hydrocarbon gas and carbon dioxide storage it 31WS Written Ministerial Statements12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS applies to UK waters (territorial waters and the UK gas determination to deliver a comprehensive range of action importation and storage zone); and for hydrocarbon in response to the threat from piracy, complementing exploration and production it applies to all UK waters. the robust action being taken by the Royal Navy at sea. A 12-week public consultation on the OESEA2 The projects support court and prison capacity building environmental report closed on 12 May 2011. All responses in Mauritius, the Seychelles, Tanzania and Somalia received on the draft plan/programme and the delivered through the UN Office on Drugs and Crime environmental report have been considered by DECC (£2.25 million); a maritime security sector needs assessment and a post consultation report for the offshore energy planning mission in Somalia, delivered through the UN SEA has been prepared and placed on the SEA website Development Programme (£200,000); maritime security (www.offshore-sea.org.uk). This summarises consultee co-ordination offices in Somalia, delivered through the comments and DECC responses to them, and presents UN Political Office for Somalia, and including the a final list of recommendations. Somali regions (£120,000); and projects supporting In the light of the final recommendations set out in community engagement and economic development in the post-consultation report, the Department concludes coastal areas of Somalia, developed with UN partners that there are no overriding environmental considerations in Somalia, including UNODC and UNDP (£2 million). to prevent the achievement of our draft plan/programme of leasing offshore wind, wave and tidal, licensing/leasing for seaward oil and gas rounds, hydrocarbon and carbon HOME DEPARTMENT dioxide storage, provided appropriate measures are implemented that prevent, reduce and offset significant adverse impacts on the environment and other users of Licensing Hours (Queen’s Diamond Jubilee) the sea. In all cases, the relevant competent authority should undertake any appropriate assessments(s) prior to awarding The Secretary of State for the Home Department licences or leases under the rounds, where screening (Mrs Theresa May): Today I am publishing a consultation shows this to be necessary. This is to meet the requirements on proposals to make an order to relax licensing hours of EU Council Directive 79/409 EEC on “the conservation to celebrate the Queen’s diamond jubilee celebrations of wild birds” and Council Directive 92/43/EEC on for the period Saturday 2 June to Tuesday 5 June 2012. “the conservation of natural habitats and wild fauna The proposed order will extend licensed opening hours and flora”, and UK implementing regulations. on Friday 1 June to l am on Saturday 2 June 2012, and DECC will now make preparations to proceed for a on Saturday 2 June to l am on Sunday 3 June 2012, for further round—the 27th—of offshore licensing for oil the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises and gas. This is expected to be launched in early 2012 and the provision of regulated entertainment and late and a further announcement will be made on the timing night refreshment by licensed premises in England and of the round. Wales. DECC and Scottish Ministers (where appropriate) Section 172 of the Licensing Act 2003 allows the are now also in a position to consider applications for Secretary of State to make an order relaxing opening carbon dioxide storage licences, and to issue those hours for licensed premises to mark occasions of licences, and subsequently to issue storage permits, “exceptional international, national or local significance”. where the applications meet regulatory requirements. A “licensing hours order” overrides existing opening OESEA2 paves the way for future leasing rounds for hours in licensed premises, that is, any premises with a marine (wave and tidal) energy. It allows for an installed premises licence or club premises certificate, and can capacity of up to 33GW of offshore wind—subject to apply to a period of up to four days. An order may mitigation measures. This is in excess of the central apply to all licensed premises in England and Wales, or range set out in the UK renewable energy roadmap, be restricted to premises in one or more specified areas. which indicates that up to 18GW of offshore wind It is also possible to impose different opening hours on could be deployed by 2020. different days during the relaxation period and to allow different licensing hours for different licensable activities. The environmental report highlights that siting and consenting processes for offshore renewable energy The Government consider that, as the Queen’s diamond developments must remain flexible to allow for technological jubilee is an occasion for national celebration, licensing innovation, including any mitigation measures. hours should be relaxed in all licensed premises in England and Wales. However, we are mindful that late night drinking can lead to crime and disorder and public nuisance. On this basis, we are proposing a FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE modest relaxation of licensing hours until l am on each of two days and intend to restrict the order to the sale of Somali Piracy (Funding Regional Maritime Capacity- alcohol in pubs, clubs and anywhere else where alcohol Building Projects) is consumed on the premises and to regulated entertainment such as live and recorded music, dancing, plays and films. We are also limiting the order to the nights of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Friday 1 June and Saturday 2 June 2012, as these are the and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): I days when people are most likely to want to celebrate. would like to inform the House that the Government The consultation will be published today (Wednesday have decided to fund a package of counter-piracy projects, 12 October) on the Home Office website at http:// building on support provided in 2010-11. This support www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/consultations. A copy provides concrete evidence of this Government’s has also been placed in the House Library. 33WS Written Ministerial Statements12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

PRIME MINISTER Government have considered the Committee’s many useful conclusions and recommendations, I have today Intelligence and Security Committee Report laid the Government’s response to this report before the House (Cm. 8168). The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): The annual Copies of the response have been placed in the Libraries report of the Intelligence and Security Committee was of both Houses. laid before Parliament on 13 July 2011 (Cm. 8114). The

5P Petitions12 OCTOBER 2011 Petitions 6P

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Official Report, Petition 11 August 2011; Vol. 531, c. 13P.] [P000954] Wednesday 12 October 2011 Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government: OBSERVATIONS The law already provides protection for tenants in respect of their right to decide who may enter their home and their right to quiet enjoyment of their property. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT A tenant has the right to exclude the landlord from the premises that are let to the tenant, unless the landlord is Access by Landlords exercising the limited rights to enter reserved to the The Petition of a resident of Norwich, landlord in the tenancy agreement. Other than when the landlord is exercising those rights, it is for the tenant Declares that at present there are no laws or guidelines to determine if and when the landlord may enter the to prevent landlords appearing outside tenants’ homes property. The common parts of a building divided into or undertaking disruptive work at any hour; considers flats are not, however, the tenants’ property. that landlords are in effect on tenants’ premises when in the communal hallways of properties that have been In addition, in every tenancy agreement, there is an divided into flats and bedsits; and further declares that implied or contractual covenant of quiet enjoyment. this interferes with a tenant’s “right to peacefully and Where work carried out by the landlord interferes with privately enjoy”, in accordance with the standard contract. the tenants’ use or lawful enjoyment of the property, the The Petition also declares that, although working patterns tenant may be able to claim for breach of the covenant vary, evenings and weekends should not be interrupted of quiet enjoyment or for private nuisance. In a successful by landlords to enable tenants to enjoy privacy in their claim for breach of covenant or private nuisance, the homes; noting that, as landlords often collect money for tenant may be entitled to an injunction and/or damages. doing nothing, it is doubly unfair not to show respect The limitations proposed in the petition, including for those to whom they have a duty of care as well as a restricting landlords’ access before 8am and after 7pm business relationship. on weekdays and on weekends or bank holidays, may The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of well be impracticable given that many landlords will Commons urges the Government to restrict landlords’ themselves be working full time in another job. Likewise, access to their rented properties in the following ways: tenants who work may also prefer to allow the landlord (1) other than in the case of an emergency, landlords access outside of normal working hours, when they can and their agents should not be inside [or by] tenanted be in the property. properties before 8am and after 7pm on weekdays; at The Government believe that the current legislative weekends; or on bank holidays; (2) prospective tenants framework strikes the right balance between the rights should only be shown around between 10am and 8pm, of landlords and tenants, and that more restrictive tenants would not be expected to comply with requests legislation could result in fewer homes available to rent. for viewings of their homes outside these hours; and (3) This would not help either potential tenants or landlords. tenants must be notified of works to be carried out on The Government are, therefore, not seeking to make adjoining properties, particularly in the case of flats in a significant changes to the current framework, although single property. will keep this under continuing consideration.

369W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 370W

Mrs Villiers: I will place in the Library a copy of the Written Answers to letter I sent to my European Union counterparts and the European Commission explaining the UK approach Questions to the screening of religious headgear. Blue Badge Scheme Wednesday 12 October 2011 Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent estimate has been made of the NORTHERN IRELAND number of blue badges in circulation. [72949] Entry Clearances Norman Baker: The number of blue badges in circulation in England at 31 March 2010 was estimated at 2.55 million. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the Northern Bus Services Ireland Executive on security and the common travel area since May 2010. [72171] Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what consideration he has given to allowing delegated Mr Swire: Neither the Secretary of State for Northern driving examiners to provide tests for multiple bus Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Member for North companies where there is no conflict of interest. [73740] Shropshire (Mr Paterson), nor I have had such discussions with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive. We Mike Penning: The appointment of ’delegated driving maintain close contacts on these issues with other UK examiners’ is provided for in legislation. This requires authorities. I met the Minister for Immigration, my the company appointing the examiner to be approved hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green), by the Secretary of State and provides for the Secretary in March to discuss the common travel area and NIO of State to impose conditions on that approval. officials remain in close contact with their counterparts Under the approvals given to bus companies allowance in the UKBA and Home Office, and we will be alert to can be made for testing of candidates employed or any aspects of these issues that affect the Executive’s potentially employed by those companies or ’sister responsibilities. companies’ i.e. another company within the same holding company. These companies have a vested interest in ensuring tests conducted are of a high quality. There is WOMEN AND EQUALITIES no provision for multiple companies to be approved and no such change has been proposed. Departmental Consultants Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport David Simpson: To ask the Minister for Women and (1) what estimate he has made of the costs incurred by Equalities what procedures her Department uses when municipal bus companies as a result of being restricted engaging external consultants. [73113] to borrowing only from local authorities; [73741] (2) what consideration he has give to bringing Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office forward legislative proposals to amend the Transport is now part of the Home Office. The information requested Act 1985 to allow municipal bus companies to borrow will be provided by the Minister for Immigration, the on the open market; and if he will make a statement. hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green). [73742]

Departmental Public Expenditure Norman Baker: Bus companies have been restricted to borrowing only from local authorities since 1986, David Simpson: To ask the Minister for Women and following deregulation and privatisation of bus operators Equalities how much the Government Equalities Office in Great Britain outside London. I currently have no spent on new furnishings in the last year. [72943] plans to bring forward legislative proposals to amend the Transport Act 1985 to allow municipal bus companies Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office to borrow on the open market. I have therefore made no is now part of the Home Office. The information requested estimate of any costs incurred by municipal bus companies will be provided by the Minister for Immigration, the as a result of being restricted to borrowing only from hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green). their controlling local authorities.

Coastguard Agency: Liverpool TRANSPORT Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Airports: Security what assessment he has made of the proposal by staff at Liverpool Maritime and Coastguard Agency to create a Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Maritime Operations Centre at Liverpool. [73744] Transport if he will place in the Library a copy of his letter to the European institutions regarding the Mike Penning: No assessment has been made of the searching of religious headgear at airports. [72085] proposal referred to above. 371W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 372W

On 14 July the Government set out revised proposals 1 per cent. to RPI plus 3 per cent. from January 2012; for the modernisation of Her Majesty’s Coastguard. and if he will make a statement. [71421] These provide for a single Maritime Operations Centre (MOC) to be located in the Southampton/Portsmouth Mrs Villiers: The pressing need to tackle the deficit area. The first consultation sought views about the has forced the Government to take difficult decisions proposal to base the MOC in the Southampton/Portsmouth on fares. The average cap on regulated rail fares will area. The responses were used to inform the decision increase by retail prices index (RPI)+3% for three years which was included as a settled matter in the revised from 2012 in order to protect planned rail investment. proposal. Accordingly, the second consultation did not Sir Roy McNulty recently completed an extensive invite alternative proposals about the location of the review on value for money on the UK’s railways. He MOC. made a number of recommendations which he believes could deliver major cost savings and we will be considering Great Western Railway Line these in depth. Our aim is to deliver savings benefiting both taxpayers and passengers. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Railways: Heathrow Airport Transport what plans he has to electrify the Great Western Main Line between London and Swansea. [70769] Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) what recent discussions he has had with Mrs Villiers: The Secretary of State for Transport, Network Rail regarding a railway transport hub at my right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Heathrow airport; [70763] Weybridge (Mr Hammond), has confirmed funding for (2) when he plans to make an announcement of the the electrification of the Great Western Main Line outcomes of discussions on a transport connection between London and Cardiff. between Heathrow airport, the proposed High Speed The Government currently have no plans for further Rail 2 and the Great Western Mainline; [70764] electrification between Cardiff and Swansea because we (3) what assessment he has made of the effects on the believe that all the benefits that would result from economy of an improved rail connection between electrification to Swansea can be delivered using a south Wales and Heathrow airport; [70765] combination of electrification to Cardiff and deployment (4) what estimate he has made of the change in of new IEP bi-mode trains, switching seamlessly from average travel time between south Wales and Heathrow electric to diesel traction at Cardiff. airport which would result from a railway transport We expect new electric and bi-mode train fleet to be hub at Heathrow airport; [70766] deployed on the Great Western by 2017. This will (5) what discussions he has had with the owners of increase capacity and cut journey times between Swansea Cardiff airport about the likely effects of a railway and London by 20 minutes. The new trains will thus transport hub at Heathrow airport; [70767] give passengers the same benefits as a fully electric fleet. (6) what recent estimate he has made of the cost of creating a railway transport hub at Heathrow airport. Motorways: Speed Limits [70768]

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Villiers: Following publication by Network Rail Transport pursuant to the answer of 19 July 2011, of its London and South East Route Utilisation Strategy Official Report, column 959W, on motorways: speed in July 2011, the Secretary of State for Transport, my limits, whether his Department plans to review default right hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and speed limits on classes of road other than motorways. Weybridge (Mr Hammond), and officials from the [72255] Department for Transport have, separately, had discussions with Network Rail and BAA regarding taking forward Mike Penning: The Department’s review of default the recommendations in the strategy for improvements speed limits is focused on the national motorway speed in rail access to Heathrow airport. Network Rail is now limit. It is not actively reviewing the national 30 mph progressing further work to determine in more detail speed limit for built up (lit) roads, the 60 mph limit for the case for a rail connection from the Great Western non-built up single carriageway roads or the 70 mph Main Line to Heathrow airport including an assessment limit for non-built up dual carriageway all purpose of costs and the economic benefits arising from the roads. effect on travel times. No wider stakeholder consultation In the course of considering the national motorway has yet been undertaken. The Department for Transport speed limit, the case for parallel changes on sections of expects to make a further announcement in due course. high standard dual carriageway all purpose trunk roads Rescue Services is being considered. A consultation on these issues will be published in Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport due course. what responses he has received to his Department’s consultation on the future of the coastguard; and what Railways: Fares assessment he has made of those submissions. [73745]

Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: The Maritime and Coastguard Agency Transport if he will review the decision to allow the (MCA) received just under 780 formal responses, together inflation linked cap on rail fares to rise from RPI plus with a number of petitions and campaign letters on 373W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 374W specific issues. The independent review team that was Higher Education formed to review the proposals associated with the first consultation has reconvened and are categorising the 12. Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for responses to the second consultation. Wales what recent discussions she has had with (a) her An analysis report will be prepared as soon as possible, ministerial colleagues and (b) university vice- on the basis of which the MCA will put forward chancellors on cross-border issues in higher education. recommendations for consideration by Ministers. [72896] As with the first consultation all of these responses will be published as soon as possible. Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham Thameslink Railway Line: Rolling Stock (Mrs Gillan), and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on a range of issues including higher education. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for While higher education is devolved in Wales, my right Transport (1) if he will place in the Library a copy of hon. Friend and I take a close interest in this area and the note of each meeting held by (a) the Secretary of we are in the process of meeting with the vice chancellors State and (b) Ministers of State on (i) Thameslink and of Wales’ universities to hear their views on this and (ii) train rolling stock where Thameslink was discussed other matters. between the date of his appointment and 16 June 2011; [71623] Pensioner Poverty (2) if he will place in the Library a copy of each (a) internal meeting with his Department and (b) meeting 13. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for between his Department and other departments in Wales what recent assessment she has made of the respect of the Thameslink rolling stock contract in (i) extent of pensioner poverty in Wales; and if she will May, (ii) June and (iii) July 2011; [71624] make a statement. [72897] (3) if he will place in the Library a copy of each risk Mr David Jones: The Government are determined assessment or risk register held by his Department that all pensioners in Wales and throughout the UK which contains assessments of the risk associated with should have a decent and secure income in retirement. the assessment and award of the Thameslink Rolling Stock Project contract; [71625] Swansea Coastguard Station (4) if he will place in the Library a copy of each risk assessment or risk register held by his Department 14. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for which contains assessments of the risk associated with Wales what recent discussions she has had with the the implementation of the Thameslink Programme. Secretary of State for Transport on the future of Swansea [71626] coastguard station. [72898]

Mrs Villiers [holding answer 15 September 2011]: Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my Details of bids for the Thameslink Rolling Stock Project right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham are confidential to Siemens, Bombardier and the (Mrs Gillan), has regular meetings with ministerial Department. To release this information could compromise colleagues on a range of issues that affect Wales including their and the Department’s commercial positions. the proposals to modernise the coastguard service. As hon. Members will be aware, the consultation on the Government’s revised proposals ended last week WALES (6 October), and the Department for Transport are currently examining the responses. Private Sector Job Creation

9. Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for HOME DEPARTMENT Wales what recent discussions she has had with her ministerial colleagues and others on job creation in the Pre-Departure Accommodation Centre private sector in Wales. [72892] Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for the 11. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department who she expects to undertake the Wales what recent discussions she has had with her independent inspection of pre-departure accommodation ministerial colleagues and others on job creation in the centre for families and children detained for immigration private sector in Wales. [72895] purposes at Pease Pottage opened on 5 September 2011. [73553] Mrs Gillan: I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues and other interested parties on ways in which Damian Green: Cedars, the pre-departure accommodation we can stimulate job creation in the private sector in for families with children at Pease Pottage, which I Wales. opened on 17 August, fulfils the Government’s commitment We must create the environment where the private to end the detention of children. It will be subject to sector is able to grow and to prosper, in order for independent inspection by Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector businesses to create much needed jobs in Wales and we of Prisons, who already has statutory responsibility for will continue to work with the Welsh Government to the UK Border Agency’s short-term holding facilities achieve that aim. as well as its immigration removal centres. An Independent 375W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 376W

Monitoring Board will also be appointed for the facility Our procedures comply with the Cabinet Office and the Children’s Commissioner for England will have requirement to submit the following three types of statutory right of access. request to the Efficiency and Reform Group: Where consulting engagements are expected to go beyond nine Anti-Slavery Day months; Where the engagement is for procurement services and will Claire Perry: To ask the Secretary of State for the cost £20,000 or more and; Home Department what plans her Department has to To prolong an existing engagement beyond nine months. mark Anti-Slavery day 2011. [73447] Approved consulting engagements are competitively tendered through an appropriate Government Procurement Damian Green: The Government are planning to Service framework or, in exceptional circumstances, mark Anti-Slavery day 2011 by supporting a range of through an open competition advertised in the Official events, including the launch of a training and referral Journal of the European Union. process for the airline industry with a major UK airline. Departmental Procurement Asylum Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department what progress her Department has the Home Department how much section 4 asylum made in eliminating pre-qualification questionnaires support was granted in the 12 months to 1 September for procurements with a value of under £100,000. 2011. [73056] [73833]

Damian Green: Expenditure on Section 4 asylum Damian Green: The Home Department has made support incurred by UK Border Agency in the 12 months good progress and has eliminated the use of pre- to 1 September 2011 was £38.2 million. This figure has qualification questionnaires for procurements with a been taken from the financial records of the UK Border value of under £100,000. Agency and is unaudited and subject to possible future amendment and revision. Domestic Violence

Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Department how many applications for asylum were the Home Department what representations she has granted in (a) 2009 and (b) 2010. [73624] received on the removal of protection under the Immigration Rules for victims of domestic violence Damian Green: The number of asylum applications with unspent criminal convictions. [73242] that were granted in the UK in 2009 and 2010 were 4,188 and 3,488 respectively. A further 2,554 in 2009 Damian Green: We received comments from 48 corporate and 1,707 in 2010 were also granted discretionary leave partners on the criminality requirement for settlement and humanitarian protection. guidance. We will be making minor alterations to our Further information on asylum is available from the guidance in response to some of the suggestions from Immigration Statistics release available in the Library corporate partners. of the House and the Home Office Science website at: The Government do not accept that the requirement http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- to have no unspent convictions for settlement applications statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ is incompatible with the commitment given to provide protection to victims of domestic violence. Where an Departmental Consultants applicant does have an unspent conviction and the offence is minor and where there are compelling and David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for the compassionate circumstances and the offence is related Home Department what procedures her Department to the domestic violence, the UK Border Agency has uses when engaging external consultants. [73106] discretion to disregard it and grant settlement outside the rules or grant temporary leave, including with access Damian Green: The Home Department has a robust to benefits, if that is more appropriate. governance process in place to ensure that control is applied to all requests to appoint external consultants John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for for both new engagements and extensions to existing the Home Department (1) what the objectives are for arrangements. the domestic abuse, stalking and honour-based The Department’s approvals procedure is implemented violence risk identification training for police forces; through the Departmental Consultancy and Contingent [73509] Labour Approvals Board, chaired by the Director General (2) what potential benefits she has identified for the of Financial and Commercial Group. The Board participation of criminal justice professionals in the thoroughly scrutinises each business case for the engagement domestic abuse, stalking and honour-based violence of external consultants and decides whether to approve risk identification training courses. [73510] the request or not, on the strengths of each case. All new consulting engagements with an anticipated Lynne Featherstone: The Association of Chief Police value greater than £20,000 requires the approval of the Officers (ACPO) accredited the Domestic Abuse, Stalking Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right and Honour Based Violence (DASH) Risk Identification, hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). Assessment and Management Model to be implemented 377W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 378W across all police services in the UK from March 2009. annual force budget in discussion with chief constables. Although we understand that the majority of forces PCCs will be required to seek the views of local people currently use DASH it is for individual forces and before deciding how resources are allocated. organisations to decide which risk assessment models to use, what training their officers and staff receive, and Members: Correspondence the specific objectives and benefits of such training. Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Entry Clearances Home Department (1) when she plans to reply to the letter of 3 June 2011 from the hon. Member for Walsall Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for North regarding constituents, ref: M10597; [64344] the Home Department how many appeals relating to (2) further to the interim reply of 7 July 2011, ref visa applications under the asylum category have been M10597, when she plans to provide a substantive reply (a) upheld and (b) refused in the last 12 months. to the letter from the hon. Member for Walsall North [73055] of 3 June 2011. [66854] Damian Green: It has been assumed that the request is for figures on determinations of appeals on applications Nick Herbert: A reply was sent on 18 July 2011. for asylum. In the last 12 months for which data are available (July 2010 to June 2011), there were 12,503 Police: Ashfield asylum appeals determined at the First-tier Tribunal of the Immigration and Asylum Chamber. Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the Of these 12,503 appeal determinations, 3,364 appeals Home Department what information her Department were allowed (upheld) and 8,474 appeals were dismissed holds on the average number of years in employment (refused). The remaining 665 appeals were withdrawn. for a police constable in (a) Ashfield constituency, (b) These data were published in Table as.14.q of Nottinghamshire and (c) England. [73693] Immigration Statistics: April to June 2011. Further information on asylum is available from the immigration Nick Herbert: Information on the average number of Statistics releases available in the Library of the House years in employment for a police constable is not collected and the Home Office Science website at: centrally. The Home Office collects figures for the number http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- of currently serving officers, broken down by rank and statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ length of service. However, length of service is grouped by size-bands, some of which span five years (eg 10 Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for years to 15 years length of service), therefore any calculation the Home Department how many appeals for visa of current average length of service would be an applications in the Family Migrant category have (a) approximation. been upheld and (b) failed in the last 12 months. [73435] Police: Email

Damian Green: The number of appeals against visa Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the applications allowed and dismissed for the settlement Home Department what guidance her Department provides category in the year ending June 2011 (the latest date to police forces on provision of contact email addresses for which figures are available) were 6,610 allowed and for chief constables. [70665] 5,440 dismissed. The number of appeals against visa applications allowed and dismissed for the family visit category for the year ending June 2011 (the latest date Nick Herbert [holding answer 8 September 2011]: for which figures are available) were 16,961 allowed and The Home Office does not issue any guidance to police 18,421 dismissed. forces on the provision of contact e-mail addresses for chief constables. Finance Police: Termination of Employment Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans she has to promote the Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for the use of participatory budgeting in future resource Home Department pursuant to the answer of 17 June 2011, allocation decisions for which her Department is Official Report, column 1009W, on police: termination responsible. [73125] of employment, what action a police officer leaving a police force can take if a police force refuses to issue Nick Herbert: Local engagement is particularly important them with a certificate showing (a) final rank and (b) in crime and policing and it is up to the relevant period of service. [72947] authorities in a local area to determine how to allocate resources, including whether to adopt participatory Nick Herbert: Failure to provide a person who ceases budgeting. Through the introduction of elected Police to be a member of a police force with a certificate and Crime Commissioners (PCCs), the Home Office is showing his rank and period of service would be a strengthening local accountability over how resources breach of the Police Regulations. The regulations do are used to tackle crime reduction and policing. PCCs not prescribe any sanction for a breach of this kind, but will determine local policing priorities, publish a five-year any unlawful act by a public authority is potentially police and crime plan, set a local precept and set the susceptible to challenge by way of judicial review. 379W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 380W

Primates UK Border Agency: Translation Services

Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made the Home Department how much the UK Border of recommendation 14 of the Review of research using Agency spent on translation services in each of the last non-human primates chaired by Professor Sir Patrick five years. [73341] Bateson FRS; when she proposes that new advice will be given to research workers on the destruction of Damian Green: The UK Border Agency (UKBA) records; and how such advice would be communicated. employs freelance interpreters to provide translation [73612] services when interviewing asylum seekers whose English is insufficient for the interview to be conducted in that Lynne Featherstone: Recommendation 14 of the Review language. of research using non-human primates chaired by Professor Expenditure on interpreters incurred by UK Border Sir Patrick Bateson FRS stated that the Home Office Agency in the last five years has been as follows: should reconsider their advice to research workers to destroy records after five years. £ The recommendation appears to be based on a 2010-11 5,105,153 misunderstanding as the Home Office does not give any 2009-10 6,020,104 such advice. For the avoidance of doubt, we require 2008-09 6,828,442 researchers and establishments to keep records for at 2007-08 6,437,698 least five years; when those records are destroyed after 2006-07 2,586,375 that is a matter for decision locally. This has been communicated to researchers in a certificate holders circular and an e-newsletter. DEFENCE Armed Forces: Recruitment Sojourner Project Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much his Department has spent on the Home Department what recent representations she recruitment advertising for the (a) Army, (b) Royal has received from women’s groups on the Sojourner Navy and Royal Marines and (c) Royal Air Force since Project. [73083] May 2010. [71068]

Damian Green: No specific representations have recently Mr Robathan [holding answer 9 September 2011]: It been received from women’s groups regarding the Sojourner is a key requirement for each of the armed forces to Project by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, maintain a satisfactory balance of skills, experience, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead ability and seniority in rank to enable delivery of operational (Mrs May). requirements. Despite the reduction in overall numbers Discussions have taken place between UK Border of service personnel, and the associated need for a Agency officials and women’s organisations on the redundancy programme, the armed forces must still long-term replacement of the Sojourner Project which recruit and train personnel to replace those who leave is scheduled to be introduced in April 2012. the services at the end of their current engagements. In order to maintain that balance each service continues to recruit where personnel are required, including those UK Border Agency: Armed Forces trades/branches which are historically difficult to fill due to the requirement of specialist qualifications or experience. Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made of The Ministry of Defence has spent £5.19 million for the accessibility and clarity of UK Border Agency the Army, £2.20 million for the Royal Navy, and £1.85 guidance for Commonwealth military personnel and million for the Royal Air Force on recruitment advertising foreign national families of military personnel moving since May 2010. These figures include current television advertising and short notice opportunity low value to the UK. [73823] advertising in magazines in newspapers. Damian Green: Those Foreign and Commonwealth EU Defence Policy nationals serving with the armed forces are considered exempt from immigration control throughout their service. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for The actions required relating to the immigration status Defence in which European Defence Agency projects of their families coming to live in the United Kingdom the UK is taking part. [72348] are clearly set out in the immigration rules and in guidance on the UK Border Agency website. Mr Gerald Howarth: The only European Defence The UK Border Agency works closely with the Ministry Agency (EDA) project to which we have a specific of Defence to ensure guidance and briefing notes issued financial commitment, in addition to our annual by both Departments are amended when necessary and membership fees, is the helicopter training project. However, easily available to all service personnel. as part of our membership we are also involved in 381W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 382W several EDA initiatives. Our contribution to these initiatives Health Professions: Qualifications takes a variety of forms including equipment and systems testing and the sharing of knowledge, expertise and Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for experience. Health what his policy is on the European Commission’s EU Defence Policy: Offices review of the Recognition of Professional Qualifications Directive 2005/36/EC, with regard to (a) midwives and Mr Brazier: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (b) other health care professionals. [73597] what role Permanent Structural Cooperation will have in the creation of an EU Permanent Operational Anne Milton: The Government’s position on the Headquarters. [72312] European Commission’s Green Paper on Modernising the Professional Qualifications Directive, is set out in Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK Government response to the Commission’s Defence what role Permanent Structured Cooperation consultation which was issued by the Department for will have in the creation of an EU Permanent Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) on 20 September Operational Headquarters; and whether the UK will 2011. A copy of the Government response is available have a veto. [72740] on the BIS website at: www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/europe/docs/e/11-1297-ec- Mr Gerald Howarth: NATO remains the cornerstone green-paper-professional-qualifications-directive-uk-response of UK defence. We see no justification for a permanent We will give consideration in due course to any EU military Operational Headquarters (OHQ) and would specific legislative proposals put forward by the European oppose it, whether there is an attempt to create it by Commission, which impact on midwives and/or other Permanent Structural Cooperation (PESCO) or other health professions and we will engage with the relevant means. We have been clear that establishment of a health professions regulatory bodies on these proposals. permanent OHQ would be a duplication of existing capability provided by NATO, would permanently Health Services: Overseas Visitors disassociate the EU from NATO and would be an unnecessary use of resources. Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Under the Lisbon treaty, signed by the previous Health pursuant to the answer of 5 July 2011, Official Government, PESCO could be established by qualified Report, column 1179W, on health services: overseas majority voting in the European Council following visitors (a) how much was owed to the NHS in unpaid notification from member states wishing to participate bills incurred by foreign nationals and (b) what the in it. However, all decisions made within PESCO are sum was of NHS bills incurred by foreign nationals in made by unanimity. Therefore, individual member states each year between 1997 and 2011 by primary care trust. do not have the ability to veto the establishment of [73562] PESCO, but those who participate would have the right to veto any decisions made within it. Regardless of Anne Milton: The sum of national health service bills whether PESCO were to be established, the UK retains incurred by overseas visitors is made up of: income the ability to veto the launch of any EU operation. received; total losses, bad debt and claims abandoned; and income which is still in the process of being recovered (not all figures will fall in the same year in which HEALTH charges incurred). I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave him on Health and Social Care Bill 2010-12 19 January 2011, Official Report, column 850W, which gave total audited income from overseas patients under Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for non-reciprocal arrangements as well as total losses, bad Health if he will bring forward legislative proposals to debt and claims abandoned for overseas visitors for amend the Health and Social Care Bill to require joint years for which figures are available for England. The working between health and education services in Department does not have these data attributable to respect of children. [73634] primary care trust areas. Anne Milton: The Health and Social Care Bill establishes The Department has not made an estimate of the health and well-being boards, to join up commissioning total amount of monies owed by overseas visitors that across the national health service, public health, adult the NHS is in the process of recovering. social care and other services, such as education, that the local health and well-being board agrees will contribute Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements to health and well-being. There is broad support for our proposals for health Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for and well-being boards, which will include Directors of Health pursuant to the answer of 15 September 2011, Children’s Services as core members, as well as Clinical Official Report, columns 1263-4W, on health services: Commissioning Groups. The boards will have an interest reciprocal arrangements, what steps he is taking to in encouraging the involvement of schools and colleges. ensure the timely recovery of outstanding payments; Schools will want a voice in the provision of health and what the level of outstanding payments is from the services for children and young people. These arrangements UK to each country listed. [73561] will be determined locally, in a way that is proportionate and appropriate, both to the capacity of local schools Anne Milton: European Union regulations 883/2004 and wider local arrangements to promote children’s and 987/2009, which entered into force on 1 May 2010, well-being under the Children’s Act 2004. introduce new deadlines for the payment of claims 383W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 384W between member states, which means that a member Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Trust state must pay an undisputed claim within 18 months of receipt of the claim. If the claim is not paid within the deadlines as set out in the regulations, then the creditor John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health member state can charge interest on the claim. (1) whether a requirement will be placed on the franchise holder for Hinchingbrooke NHS Trust to reduce the The following table shows the outstanding amounts, trust’s legacy debt; and whether it will be permitted to as at 10 October 2011, to be paid by the United Kingdom (a) sell any of the trust’s assets, (b) discontinue services to each member state of the European Economic Area and (c) build new facilities on the trust site for use by (EEA) and Switzerland, for actual cost claims submitted private patients; [72958] up to and including the financial year 2010-11. The (2) whether staff employed at Hinchingbrooke NHS amounts relate to combined claims for temporary visitors Trust will become employees of the franchise holder (via European Health Insurance Cards), workers under the terms of the franchise; and whether they will temporarily posted abroad by their employer and referrals retain their existing terms and conditions of employment; for treatment in other EEA countries. Due to the nature [72959] of the claims system between member states, it is not (3) what plans he has for the future of the debt held currently possible to disaggregate the data consistently by Hinchingbrooke NHS Trust; [73578] for all member states by either type of claim or type of treatment. (4) on what basis the clinical and financial performance of Hinchingbrooke NHS Trust will be assessed under £ its operating franchise; and what benchmarks he plans to set to assess the performance of the franchise; [73579] Austria 1,731,000 Belgium 8,515,000 (5) whether the board of Hinchingbrooke NHS Trust Bulgaria 17,000 will continue to meet in public and publish agendas and minutes of its meetings under the terms of its operating Cyprus 1,499,000 franchise; [73580] Czech Republic 544,000 Finland 8,000 (6) if he will publish the contract with Circle Heath France -643,000 for the franchise of Hinchingbrooke NHS Trust. [73581] Germany 4,658,000 Greece 273,000 Mr Simon Burns: Based on advice from the NHS Hungary 0 East of England strategic health authority, we can Iceland 53,000 confirm the following: Ireland 44,305,000 The Hinchingbrooke Next Steps project was devised Italy 2,516,000 to establish a solution to Hinchingbrooke Health Care Latvia 0 NHS Trust’s historic debt and secure its long term Liechtenstein 0 sustainability. The trust’s board recognised that it was Lithuania 2,000 unlikely to reach foundation trust status as a standalone Luxembourg 263,000 organisation or pay back its debt to the taxpayer so, Netherlands 0 after a public consultation in 2007, a procurement took Norway 0 place to find a suitable partner, using a unique franchise Poland -14,000 arrangement. On 25 November 2010, following considerable Portugal 0 stakeholder engagement, Circle was announced as the Romania 1,000 recommended bidder to take on the management of Slovakia 268,000 Hinchingbrooke and the full business case was sent to Slovenia 99,000 the Department and HM Treasury for scrutiny. It is Spain 0 anticipated that a decision regarding the business case will be made very soon. Sweden 342,000 Switzerland 1,104,000 Circle will manage the hospital but the hospital will Total 65,500,000 trade and provide services as a national health service Notes: trust. The trust will therefore be subject to the same 1. Country totals are rounded to the nearest 1,000. Overall totals are quality and standards regulations as all other NHS rounded to the nearest 100,000. Sub-totals may not add up to totals hospitals. due to rounding. 2. Equivalent totals based on latest EU quarterly exchange rates for The board of Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS conversion of currencies Trust will continue to meet in public and publish its 3. Denmark—Full waiver agendas and minutes. 4. Estonia and Norway—Waiver, excepting Article 22.1c (patient referral) and Article 55.1c (industrial injury) claims. Currently, there is no contract between Circle and 5. Finland, Hungary and Malta—Waiver, excepting Article 22.1c Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Trust. The contract (patient referral) claims. will be signed only when approvals have been received 6. Netherlands—Netherlands claim amounts are determined and from the Department and HM Treasury. The contract settled on an annual basis in arrears. There are no outstanding amounts for claims determined in 2010-11 and in prior years. may be made publicly available, subject to commercial 7. The position shown relates to the position for claims submitted up confidentiality. to and including the financial year 2010-11 as at 30 September 2011. Circle has made a commitment to address the hospital’s Outstanding amounts are subject to constant change as part of the normal process of claims verification and settlement. historic debt. The trust, under Circle’s management, 8. Negative amounts relate to the withdrawal or rejection of elements may be permitted, subject to normal NHS procedures, of claims subsequent to a payment. to sell its assets. However, any revenue gained would be 385W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 386W reinvested within the hospital. As part of the franchise, Vaccine suppliers report that by week ending Circle is committed to maintain the current level of 30 September, 8.4 million doses of seasonal flu vaccine services, as long as commissioners continue to purchase have been distributed to the national health service and them. This includes accident and emergency and maternity private sector in the UK. This is 1.3 million doses services, a commitment to which was made following higher than the equivalent figure last year. the 2007 public consultation, led by the lead commissioner, NHS Cambridgeshire. In the future, if there are proposals Medical Records: Databases to change the services provided at the hospital, they will be subject to public consultation, as they would with any NHS hospital. Circle’s plans for the hospital as Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health defined in their bid do not include plans to construct what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the any new facilities. safeguards in the Personal Demographics Service to prevent illegal access to personal information. [73738] Under the Hinchingbrooke hospital franchise arrangement, staff will remain employees of the NHS, retaining their terms and conditions. The hospital’s Mr Simon Burns: The Personal Demographics Service assets will remain within the NHS, and patients will (PDS) resides within a fully private network known as continue to receive NHS services. N3. The service can only be accessed from within this private network or through centrally managed and assured gateways such as the secure Government network (GCSX). John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health If an attacker manages to gain access to the national with reference to his letter to the right hon. Member for health service private N3 network they would then have Wentworth and Dearne of 7 December 2010, what the to break through many separate layers of tiered architecture reason is for the time taken to commence the franchise with each tier being protected by industry grade firewalls of Hinchingbrooke NHS Trust. [73582] of different manufacture to access the database. The firewalls are supported by intrusion detection systems, Mr Simon Burns: The business case for the appointment and other multiple security measures which routinely of the proposed preferred bidder for the management monitor network traffic and alert upon detection of franchise at Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Trust is suspicious activity. currently with the Government for consideration. This Local access to the PDS is controlled by local has taken longer then expected to review, but it is organisations and each organisation is legally responsible important to emphasise the significance of this business for compliance with the Data Protection Act and other case in terms of the new model of contract and financial relevant legislation. This requires that they put in place transaction involved, requiring a full and considered appropriate technical and organisational measures to analysis. prevent unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal A decision is now expected very shortly. data such as that held by the PDS. Organisations with access to the PDS are expected to complete and publish Hospitals: Greater London an annual assessment of the adequacy of their safeguards through the NHS Information Governance Toolkit. Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what information his Department holds on the number Members: Correspondence of non-disclosure clauses signed by doctors in each London hospital in the last five years; and what Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for information his Department holds on the reasons for Health when he plans to reply to the letter from the the clause in each case. [73739] hon. Member for Leeds West of 2 September 2011. [73706] Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold this information. Each national health service employer would Mr Simon Burns: I responded to the hon. Member’s hold information in relation to the use of non-disclosure letter of 2 September 2011 on 11 October 2011. clauses for its own employees including doctors. NHS: Psychology Influenza: Vaccination Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many psychologists employed by the NHS Health what assessment he has made of the availability specialised in (a) cancer, (b) dermatology, (c) burns, of influenza vaccine for winter 2011-12. [73470] (d) plastics, (e) ophthalmology, (f) craniofacial conditions, (g) maxillofacial conditions and (h) neurological Anne Milton: Departmental officials are in regular conditions in the latest period for which figures are contact with influenza vaccine suppliers; who have reported available. [73560] no problems with the production or distribution of the vaccine for this flu season. Vaccine suppliers are making Mr Simon Burns: The annual national health service available 16.7 million doses of vaccine in the United work force census does not collect the number of Kingdom this winter. This figure is about one million psychologists who work in each of the specialist areas. doses higher than the equivalent figure last year. In The number of clinical psychologists employed by the addition, the Department has procured a strategic reserve NHS in England at 30 September 2010 was 6,901 of 400,000 doses of vaccine for use if shortages occur. full-time equivalent staff. 387W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 388W

NHS: Reform Number of finished consultant episodes with a wait of over1,2 six months (182 days or more), for all Birmingham primary care trusts3, from 1997-98 to 2009-104 Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Finished consultant episodes Health how commissioners will obtain specialist advice on speech, language and communication needs under 1998-99 14,982 his proposals for NHS reform. [73635] 1997-98 11,398 1 A finished consultant episode (FCE) is a continuous period of Mr Simon Burns: A full range of health and care admitted patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FCEs are counted against the year in which they end. professionals will be involved in the new commissioning Figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person arrangements, supporting the NHS Commissioning Board may have more than one episode of care within the same stay in and clinical commissioning groups to design pathways hospital or in different stays in the same year. of care and shape services including those services 2 Time waited statistics from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are providing specialist advice on speech, language and not the same as the published waiting list statistics. HES provides counts and time waited for all patients admitted to hospital within a communication. Clinical commissioning groups will be given period, whereas the published waiting list statistics count those under a duty to secure professional advice and to ensure waiting for treatment on a specific date and how long they have been this advice is from a full range of health professionals on the waiting list. Also, HES calculates the time waited as the where relevant. difference between the admission and decision to admit dates. Unlike published waiting list statistics, this is not adjusted for self-deferrals Clinical commissioning groups will receive expert or periods of medical/social suspension. In order to calculate those support and advice from clinical networks and senates who waited more than six months, we have used waits of 182 days or on the design and delivery of services. Clinical networks longer. and senates will have a wide range of multi-disciplinary 3 In July 2006, the national health service reorganised strategic health authorities (SHAs) and primary care trusts (PCTs) in England from input, including allied health professionals, to support 28 SHAs into 10, and from 303 PCTs into 152. As a result data from the better integration of services. 2006-07 onwards are not directly comparable with previous years. Data have been presented for those SHA/PCTs which have valid data Orthopaedics: Footwear for the breakdown presented here. As a result some SHA/PCTs may be missing from the list provided. 2006-07 onwards: Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for PCTs used: Health how many complaints the NHS received in 5M1—South Birmingham 5MX—Heart of Birmingham relation to orthopaedic shoes in each of the last five 5PG—Birmingham East and North years. [72948] Pre 2006-07: 5MX—Heart of Birmingham Mr Simon Burns: This information is not collected 5M1—South Birmingham 5MW—North Birmingham PCT centrally.It is for local national health service organisations 5MY—Eastern Birmingham PCT to determine how best to use their funds to meet national 4 HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the and local priorities for improving health and to commission figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements services accordingly including the provision of orthopaedic in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements footwear. They are free to determine their own criteria in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, apparent reductions in for the provision of orthopaedic footwear and should activity may be due to a number of procedures which may now be ensure the quality of services is appropriate. undertaken in out-patient settings and so no longer include in admitted patient HES data. Source: Waiting Lists: Birmingham Hospital Episode Statistics, The Information Centre for health and social care Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people waited over six months for Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS treatment in Birmingham in each year since 1997. Health what the average waiting time for (a) inpatient [72407] and (b) outpatient treatments was for patients in Birmingham on (i) May 1997 and (ii) May of each Mr Simon Burns: The information is not collected in subsequent year. [72408] the form requested. Number of finished consultant episodes with a wait of over1,2 six Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is as months (182 days or more), for all Birmingham primary care trusts3, follows: from 1997-98 to 2009-104 Average time waited for in-patients and out-patients1 in Birmingham Finished consultant episodes primary care trusts of residence2, from May 1997-98 to May 2009-10 for the months of May3 2009-10 14,994 In-patients Out-patients 2008-09 13,590 2007-08 9,925 2009-10 59.2 37.6 2006-07 9,522 2008-09 56.0 36.4 2005-06 9,675 2007-08 61.1 45.6 2004-05 11,149 2006-07 62.9 54.7 2003-04 13,649 2005-06 62.3 48.6 2002-03 15,448 2004-05 64.9 47.7 2001-02 11,609 2003-04 66.9 44.0 2000-01 10,974 2002-03 62.3 n/a 1999-2000 9,473 2001-02 63.9 n/a 389W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 390W

Average time waited for in-patients and out-patients1 in Birmingham In 2010-11 they engaged with 13,000 Afghans face to primary care trusts of residence2, from May 1997-98 to May 2009-10 3 face and reached over two million through digital means, for the months of May broadcast and publications. For example, their schools In-patients Out-patients programme has involved over 11,000 students and teachers 2000-01 69.5 n/a who worked on joint curriculum projects with UK 1999-2000 67.1 n/a schools. 1998-99 93.1 n/a They continue to provide Afghan military staff with 1997-98 80.1 n/a English training and Ministry of Education English n/a = Not available. supervisors with training in modern methods of English 1 Time waited statistics from Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are teaching. not the same as the published waiting list statistics. HES provides counts and time waited for all patients admitted to hospital within a The British Council measures the impact and effectiveness given period, whereas the published waiting list statistics count those of all its work using indicators measuring customer waiting for treatment on a specific date and how long they have been satisfaction, reputation and advocacy. There is a standard on the waiting list. Also, HES calculates the time waited as the evaluation framework used to evaluate the impact of difference between the admission and decision to admit dates. Unlike every programme. published waiting list statistics, this is not adjusted for self-deferrals or periods of medical/social suspension. 2 In July 2006, the national health service reorganised strategic health Algeria: Religious Freedom authorities (SHAs) and primary care trusts (PCTs) in England from 28 SHAs into 10, and from 303 PCTs into 152. As a result data from Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 onwards are not directly comparable with previous years. Data have been presented for those SHA/PCTs which have valid data Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent for the breakdown presented here. As a result some SHA/PCTs may representations he has made to the government of be missing from the list provided. Algeria on religious freedom for Christians in that 2006-07 onwards: country. [73567] PCTs used: 5M1—South Birmingham 5MX—Heart of Birmingham Alistair Burt: The Government raise human rights, 5PG—Birmingham East and North including freedom of religion and belief, with the Pre 2006-07: Government of Algeria regularly, both in bilateral 5MX—Heart of Birmingham discussions and through the EU. Following a recent 5M1—South Birmingham visit by Stefan Füle, the European Commissioner for 5MW—North Birmingham PCT 5MY—Eastern Birmingham PCT Enlargement and European Neighbourhood Policy, the 3 HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. Changes to the EU and the Algerian Government have increased dialogue figures over time need to be interpreted in the context of improvements on these issues, by establishing a sub-committee on in data quality and coverage (particularly in earlier years), improvements security and human rights. in coverage of independent sector activity (particularly from 2006-07) and changes in NHS practice. For example, apparent reductions in We continue to monitor religious freedom in the activity may be due to a number of procedures which may now be middle east and North African region closely and will undertaken in out-patient settings and so no longer include in admitted raise this issue as part of our discussions with the patient HES data. Algerian Government. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics, The Information Centre for health and social care Belarus

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when (a) he and (b) FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Ministers in his Department last had direct discussions with the government of Belarus. [73617] Afghanistan: British Council Mr Lidington: There have been no direct ministerial Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State discussions between the UK and Belarus since the last for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent general election. I did however see the Belarusian assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the ambassador to London on 22 December 2010 to express British Council’s work in Afghanistan; and if he will condemnation on behalf of the British Government of make a statement. [73287] the abuse of political freedom by the Belarusian authorities which followed the presidential elections on 19 December Mr Hague: The British Council carries out important 2010. work in Afghanistan in dangerous circumstances. The attack on their compound on 19 August is a reminder of B’Tselem the difficult circumstances in which they work, and I pay tribute to their staff. The Council is currently operating Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for from a temporary office in our embassy compound and Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much (a) has sustained all its major programmes. financial and (b) other support his Department The British Council returned to Afghanistan in 2002 provided to B’Tselem—The Israeli Information Centre and runs programmes supporting the professional for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories in each aspirations of the next generation of Afghan leaders of the last five years. [73543] and in support of the Afghan people as they take control of their own development, governance, stability Alistair Burt: During the last five years the Middle and cultural determination. This includes programmes East and North Africa Conflict programme have provided in education, civil society, English and cultural development. £185,000 to B’Tselem. 391W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 392W

This is broken down as follows: John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many hon. Members £ his Department assisted in arranging visas for or meetings in China in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. [73620] 2010-11 135,000 2006-07 150,000 1 Mr Jeremy Browne: Applications for visas for China Project jointly administered by B’Tselem and Hamoked are dealt with by the Chinese embassy. The Foreign and The project in 2010-11 was designed to bring about Commonwealth Office (FCO) does not assist hon. Members an improvement in the human rights situation in the with their visa applications. However the FCO Travel West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem using film Centre will provide practical assistance to FCO and and video documentation as both a deterrent and tool other Ministers with their applications for a visa. for accountability. The China Department of the FCO and our embassy In 2006-7 the project was to help the facilitation of and consulates general in China may assist visiting freedom of movement for Palestinians in the Occupied Members of Parliament and parliamentary delegations Territories through legal and administrative action, with setting up their programmes and by providing advocacy and public education. factual briefings where necessary.The Department provided logistical assistance and/or factual briefings for 12 non- China ministerial visits to China by hon. Members in 2010 and 16 in 2011. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many meetings (a) China: Human Rights Ministers and (b) officials in his Department have had with the government of China in 2011. [73618] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he last discussed in Mr Jeremy Browne: The UK Government has held person human rights and democracy with the Chinese three high-level dialogues and a wide range of ministerial- Ambassador. [73143] level dialogues and other meetings with the Chinese Government in 2011. The high level dialogues and visits Mr Jeremy Browne: The Secretary of State for Foreign in the UK have included the Prime Ministerial Summit and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the in June, the Strategic Dialogue in late September, the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) last discussed Economic and Financial Dialogue in early September human rights and democracy with the Chinese ambassador and the visit of Vice Premier Li Keqiang in January. in person at the UK-China strategic dialogue on Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) Ministers 26 September. Chinese State Councillor Dai Bingguo and officials were involved in all of these visits, each of was also in attendance. which involved several meetings with several Chinese Ministers and officials. Columbia: Human Rights FCO Ministers have also been involved in ministerial-level dialogues and meetings including a meeting between Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what human Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond rights issues he raised during his meeting with the (Yorks) (Mr Hague) and Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi Colombian foreign minister on 13 July 2011. [73301] in the margins of the UN General Assembly in New York in September, the first Growth Dialogue with the Mr Hague: I refer the right hon. Member to my answer National Development and Reform Commission hosted of 6 September 2011, Official Report, column 448W. by the Minister of State for Trade and Investment, my noble Friend the right hon. Lord Green in London in Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers September, and visits to London by Vice Foreign Minister Fu Ying and Assistant Ministry of Commerce Minister Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Qiu Hong. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the resource In addition, Lord Green in March, and I in May/June budget allocation was for the office of his Department’s both visited China where we met our ministerial chief scientific adviser in each of the last five years for counterparts and other representatives of the Chinese which figures are available. [72471] Government. We have also held a number of official-level dialogues Mr Bellingham: The Chief Scientific Adviser (CSA) with the Chinese Government including the Human role and CSA Office were created on 5 August 2009. Rights Dialogue in the UK in January, the Counter Resource budget allocations for the CSA Office in Proliferation and Security Dialogue in China in June, relevant financial years were as follows: an Africa Dialogue in the UK in June, and a South Asia Dialogue in China in September. FCO officials responsible £ for a wide range of policy areas have also visited China 2009-10 15,000 for expert-level discussions in 2011. 2010-11 18,300 FCO officials regularly meet Chinese embassy officials 2011-12 20,000 in London, as well as visiting delegations from China covering a range of subjects. FCO officials based in our The CSA Office is staffed by one full-time D6/Grade 7 diplomatic network in China also meet Chinese officer and 50% of one A2/AO PA. Average salaries for Government representatives on a very frequent basis. these grades in relevant years were: 393W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 394W

Departmental Official Visits £ Grades A2 D6 Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many 2009-10 27,348 61,193 occasions Ministers in his Department have visited the 2010-11 28,732 64,842 institutions of the (a) European Union, (b) World 2011-12 28,405 64,677 Trade Organisation, (c) United Nations, (d) International Monetary Fund and (e) Commonwealth in each year since 2005. [72946] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the salary, Mr Lidington: The previous Government published including benefits, was of his Department’s chief an annual list of all visits overseas undertaken by Cabinet scientific adviser in each of the last five years for which Ministers costing £500 or more during each financial figures are available; and how many individuals have year. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office publishes held the post in the last five years. [72472] information on ministerial travel at: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/publications-and-documents/ Mr Bellingham: Professor David Clary FRS was transparency-and-data1/hospitality/ appointed as the first Foreign and Commonwealth Office on a quarterly basis. Chief Scientific Adviser (CSA) on 5 August 2009. Departmental Public Expenditure Working 40% full-time equivalent at SMS3/SCS3 level, Professor Clary’s total FCO salary paid for relevant years was as follows: David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his £ Department spent on new furnishings in the last year. [72934] 2009 (August 5) to 2010 32,800 (April 5) Mr Lidington: This information is not held centrally 2010-11 49,200 and is only available at disproportionate cost. 2011-12 49,200 Detainees Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many full- Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many time equivalent staff were employed in the office of his requests he received from hon. Members for assistance Department’s chief scientific adviser in each of the last from his Department to bring to trial constituents five years for which figures are available; and on what detained in other countries in each of the last 10 years. date the office was established. [72473] [73559]

Mr Bellingham: The Chief Scientific Adviser (CSA) Mr Jeremy Browne: This information is not centrally Office was established on 5 August 2009, the same date held and can only be obtained at disproportionate cost. that Professor David Clary FRS took up his role as However, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) Foreign and Commonwealth Office, CSA. Ministers and our consular directorate in London continue The CSA himself is 40% full-time equivalent at SMS3/ to welcome contact from hon. Members in relation to SCS3 level, and is supported by one full-time D6/Grade constituents or family members of constituents detained 7 officer and 50% of an A2/AO PA. This staffing level aboard. Supporting British nationals who are detained has remained unchanged since the CSA Office was abroad is a vital part of the work of the FCO. This established. support is explained in our publication “Support for British nationals abroad: A guide”, which is available on the FCO website at: Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/ publications on requiring his Department’s (a) agencies and non-departmental public bodies and (b) contractors to Dubai: Detainees have a written code of practice or protocol relating to the provision, conduct and quality assurance of Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for scientific evidence and advice. [72474] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many hon. Members wrote to him about constituents detained Mr Bellingham: The Foreign and Commonwealth and awaiting trial in Dubai in each of the last 10 years. Office does not have any agencies, non department [73558] public bodies or contractors dedicated to the provision of scientific advice. It requires all its contractors and Mr Jeremy Browne: This information is not centrally service providers to meet appropriate standards as regards held and can be obtained only at disproportionate cost. qualifications, best practice and quality assurance. An However, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) appropriate standard for scientific advice would be the Ministers and our consular directorate in London continue Government Chief Scientific Adviser’s “Guidelines on to welcome contact from hon. Members in relation to the use of science and engineering advice in policy constituents or family members of constituents detained making”. in Dubai. Supporting British nationals who are detained 395W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 396W abroad is a vital part of the work of the FCO. This Alistair Burt: I refer my hon. Friend to the response support is explained in our publication “Support for the Minister of State, my noble Friend, the right hon. British nationals abroad: A guide”, which is available Lord Howell of Guildford, gave in the other place to an on the FCO website at: oral question on 12 July 2011, Official Report, House of http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/ Lords, column 597. publications We recognise there are human rights concerns in both Indian Subcontinent: Human Rights Indian and Pakistan-administered Kashmir and we followed the widely reported violent unrest in Indian-administered Kashmir last year. During a recent visit to Indian Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign administered Kashmir, officials from our high commission and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he in New Delhi discussed the issue of detentions with the received from (a) the Indian Government, (b) the Jammu and Kashmir state police and human rights Pakistani Government, (c) human rights organisations groups. The issue of security legislation operating in and (d) individuals prior to the debate on Human certain regions of India, was raised with the Indian Rights on the Indian Subcontinent on 15 September Government during the recent EU-India Human Rights 2011. [73571] dialogue. Alistair Burt: Prior to the debate on 15 September, I We are closely following the work of the three received no representations from the Indian or Pakistani interlocutors to help resolve the situation in Indian- Governments. No representations were received from administered Kashmir. We continue to call for an human rights organisations. The Foreign and improvement in the human rights situation on both Commonwealth Office did however receive inquiries sides of the Line of Control and for an end to external about the nature of the debate from media organisations. support for violence in Kashmir. Officials in our high No information was passed to such organisations ahead commissions in Islamabad and New Delhi regularly of the debate. discuss India-Pakistan relations, including Kashmir with their counterparts in both countries. Kashmir: Foreign Relations Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with human rights organisations on respect for had with his international counterparts on Kashmir; human rights in Indian-administered Kashmir. [73577] and if he will make a statement. [73264] Alistair Burt: I refer my hon. Friend to the response Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and the Minister of State, my noble Friend, the right hon. Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Lord Howell of Guildford, gave in the other place to an for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) regularly speaks to oral question on 12 July 2011, Official Report, House of his United States, Indian and Pakistani counterparts Lords, column 597. about regional issues including relations between India and Pakistan. With the United States and EU we recognise We recognise there are human rights concerns in both the importance of finding a lasting solution to the Indian and Pakistan-administered Kashmir and we followed situation in Kashmir but it is not for third parties to the widely reported violent unrest in Indian-administered prescribe one. It is for India and Pakistan to find a Kashmir last year. During a recent visit to Indian lasting resolution, one which takes into account the administered Kashmir, officials from our high commission wishes of the Kashmiri people. in New Delhi discussed the issue of detentions with the Jammu and Kashmir state police and human rights Kashmir: Human Rights groups. The issue of security legislation operating in certain regions of India, was raised with the Indian Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Government during the recent EU-India Human Rights and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he dialogue. has had with his international counterparts on respect We are closely following the work of the three for human rights in Kashmir; and if he will make a interlocutors to help resolve the situation in Indian- statement. [73572] administered Kashmir. We continue to call for an improvement in the human rights situation on both Alistair Burt: While the Secretary of State for Foreign sides of the Line of Control and for an end to external and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the support for violence in Kashmir. Officials in our high Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has not commissions in Islamabad and New Delhi regularly had recent discussions on human rights in Kashmir, the discuss India-Pakistan relations, including Kashmir with issue of security legislation operating in certain regions their counterparts in both countries. of India was raised with the Indian Government during the recent EU-India Human Rights dialogue. Kashmir: Peacekeeping Operations Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the Indian Government on respect for human Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign rights in Indian-administered Kashmir; and if he will and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his Department place in the Library a copy of the minutes of any such is taking to help achieve a long-term peace in Kashmir. discussions. [73576] [73570] 397W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 398W

Alistair Burt: As I said during the debate on Human case of the family of Dr Oh Kil-nam, believed to have Rights on Indian subcontinent on 15 September 2011, been detained in Yodok prison camp in North Korea. Official Report, columns 1290-91: [73541] ″The position of successive British Governments has consistently been that any resolution must be for India and Pakistan to agree, Mr Jeremy Browne: We are aware of the case of taking into account the wishes of the Kashmiri people. As India Dr Oh Kil-nam’s family, which was also recently raised and Pakistan are currently making efforts to build confidence in in the South Korean media. If the media reports are all aspects of their relationship, I believe it is important that they be given space to determine the scope and pace of that dialogue. correct, such cases are a clear reminder of why North No matter how well intentioned, any attempts by the UK or other Korea remains a country of concern on the Foreign and third parties to mediate or prescribe solutions would hinder Commonwealth’s annual Human Rights Report. We progress. use every opportunity to raise our concerns with the Our officials in our high commissions regularly discuss and North Korean Government directly. regularly raise difficult issues in Kashmir with both the Indian and Pakistani Governments and with contacts in those areas. Our Palestinians: United Nations resources from the conflict pool also support work promoting human rights, conflict prevention and peace-building efforts″. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Libya: UN Resolutions Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the Government has taken to support the Palestinian Authority’s efforts to be recognised as a sovereign, Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign independent and contiguous state by the United and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has Nations. [72157] had with (a) his counterparts in (i) France and (ii) the US and (b) the Libyan National Transitional Council on the inclusion of women in the Paris conference and Alistair Burt: The Prime Minister has made the UK’s follow-up meetings in accordance with United Nations position on recognition of a Palestinian state clear: a Security Council Resolution 1325. [72609] Palestinian state is a legitimate goal, and the best way of achieving this is through a comprehensive agreement Alistair Burt [holding answer 11 October 2011]: The between Israel and the Palestinians. The UK is fully Prime Minister emphasised the importance the Government committed to supporting the Palestinian Authority state attaches to women’s rights in his speech to the UN building plan and helping build the institutions of a General Assembly on the 22 September. The Government future Palestinian state. have stressed to the National Transitional Council repeatedly We do not anticipate an imminent vote in the UN the importance of establishing an inclusive interim Security Council on the membership application by government that includes women and ensures their full Palestinian President Abbas. Whether the membership participation in a new Libyan society. The Government committee returns the issue to the Security Council, or are committed to their obligations under UNSCR 1325, whether President Abbas decides to turn to the General and are working to determine what bilateral support Assembly, the UK will use its vote in a way that increases the UK can provide the new Libyan Government. the likelihood of a return to meaningful negotiations. Bringing the parties back to negotiations remains our Middle East: Detainees focus. The Quartet statement agreed on 23 September provides a clear timetable. This is a welcome step which Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for we hope provides a basis for the two sides to come back Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many hon. to the table. Members requested assistance from his Department for constituents detained without trial in countries in the Sri Lanka: Armed Conflict middle east in each of the last 10 years. [73557] Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jeremy Browne: This information is not centrally Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations held and can be obtained only at disproportionate cost. he has made to the government of Sri Lanka on the However, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) independence of the Lessons Learned and Reconciliation Ministers and our consular directorate in London continue Commission; and what assessment his Department has to welcome contact from hon. Members in relation to made of the prospects that the Commission will meet constituents or family members of constituents detained the deadline of November 2011 to produce its final in the middle east. Supporting British nationals who are report. [73466] detained abroad is a vital part of the work of the FCO. This support is explained in our publication ″Support Alistair Burt: We share international concern about for British nationals abroad: A guide″, which is available the credibility of the Lessons Learned Reconciliation on the FCO website at: Commission’s (LLRC) process. In my calls with the http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/ Sri Lankan Foreign Minister and during the visit of the publications Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Mr Fox), we North Korea: Detainees encouraged the Sri Lankan Government to use the LLRC to address past allegations effectively. The LLRC Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for was originally due to report in November 2010, later Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise extended to May 2011. Now we await its final report on with the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea the 15 November 2011. 399W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 400W

Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for JUSTICE Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the Government of Sri Lanka on protection for witnesses and victims appearing before Bill of Rights Commission: European Court of Human the Lessons Learned and Reconciliation Commission. Rights [73467] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Alistair Burt: Sri Lanka does not have a functioning (1) what assessment he has made of the Bill of Rights witness protection system and the Lessons Learnt and Commission’s interim proposals on the reform of the Reconciliation Commission (LLRC) did not establish European Court of Human Rights; and which any separate procedures. Unidentified plain-clothed recommendations from the Commission the Government individuals reportedly photographed civilians who testified plans to accept; [72243] during its public hearings, which ran from August 2010 to March 2011. Despite this, a number of affected (2) what the Government’s plans are for reforming civilians gave evidence. The majority were concerned (a) the European Court of Human Rights and (b) the about locating disappeared and missing relatives. European Convention on Human Rights; and if he will make a statement. [72244] Our high commission in Colombo raised concerns with the Sri Lankan Government over witness protection for those appearing before the LLRC on a number of Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Government welcome the occasions and continues to follow closely the Commission’s Commission’s interim advice on the reform of the work. European Court of Human Rights. Our top priority when we take over the chairmanship Third Sector of the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe will be to deliver a key stage of the reform process that Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign has been ongoing for some years. The Court must focus and Commonwealth Affairs how many letters he has on the most important cases and have proper regard to received on funding for civil society organisations within the judgment of national Parliaments and courts. It his Department’s area of responsibility in each month must operate more effectively and efficiently as a proper since 1 June 2010; and if he will make a statement. safeguard against human rights abuses. [73982] The way the Court works is set out in the Convention, so reform could involve changes to the Convention only Mr Lidington: This information is not held centrally if all 47 member states of the Council of Europe agree and is available only at disproportionate cost. to it. We will be negotiating and seeking to agree a package of reforms with all member states during our West Bank: Schools chairmanship, and will take into account the recommendations in the Commission’s advice. Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government will inform the House of their full Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what plans for the UK chairmanship of the Council of representations he has made to his Israeli counterpart Europe in due course. on the proposed demolition of the school in Khan al Ahmar, west bank; [73585] (2) what assessment his Department has made of the Civil Disorder effects on the Bedouin population in the west bank of demolitions of homes and schools by Israel. [73586] Paul Maynard: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt: Senior Foreign and Commonwealth Justice how many people aged under-18 years in each Office and Department for International Development ethnic group have been imprisoned (a) on remand and (DFID) officials most recently visited the Khan al (b) under sentence in connection with the public Ahmar school for the Bedouin Jahilin community on 6 disorder of August 2011. [73818] October. They discussed with Palestinian and UN officials how to respond to this threat of action that would be Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice has published illegal under international humanitarian law and that frequent updates on people being dealt with by the court would affect the human rights of the children attending system in relation to the disturbances on 6-9 August. the school and their communities. These reports can be found on the Ministry of Justice Our ambassador to Israel raised this issue with the website at: Israeli Defence Minister Barak on 5 October, as well as http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ad- with the chief aide to Education Minister Saar. hoc/index.htm The UK has a long-standing policy of lobbying hard A more detailed release was published on 15 September on issues relating to demolitions and settlement building, containing detailed information on age, gender, offence and we will continue to do so. We view any attempts to committed, sentence given, and previous criminal history. change the facts on the ground as a serious provocation This can be found on the Ministry of Justice website at: likely to prompt tensions between communities and http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ cause unnecessary suffering to ordinary Palestinians. criminal-justice/public-disorder-august-11.htm We view such steps as harmful to the peace process and A further publication is planned for the last week of in contravention of international law. October will cover wider socio-economic and demographic We continue to follow this case actively. characteristics, including ethnicity information. 401W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 402W

Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme District of Stratford-on-Avon London Borough of Tower Hamlets Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Teignbridge what the (a) number of claims and (b) total value of City of Wolverhampton claims paid to residents of the City of Nottingham through the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme Judicial Review: Public Sector was in the latest financial year for which figures are available. [73640] Simon Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what information his Department holds on the Mr Djanogly: The Criminal Injuries Compensation number of applications for judicial review that were (a) Authority (CICA) has defined Nottingham as any street received, (b) granted and (c) refused on matters relating with a postcode in the range NG1 to NG16 for the to the awarding of public sector contracts in each of the purposes of gathering the data for this answer. Applicants last three years. [72254] sometimes do not give CICA their postcode and such applicants do not appear in this data. Mr Kenneth Clarke: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals CICA received 853 claims from Nottingham residents Service does not keep statistics on judicial reviews according in the 2010-11 financial year. to the nature of the review requested, such as the CICA paid 851 Nottingham residents a total of awarding of public sector contracts. £2,268,529 in compensation in the 2010-11 financial In order to provide the information requested it year. This reflects claims finalised in 2010-11, a proportion would require a trawl through judicial review case files of which will have been lodged in previous years, so for the period in question to identify those that relate to does not cover the same cases mentioned at the first public sector contracts—which is cost prohibitive. part of the answer. Polygamy Electoral Register Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice how many polygamous households exist in the which local authorities are piloting new ways to share UK; and what steps are being taken to reduce the data and increase electoral registration; and when the number of such households. [73633] pilots will finish. [72024] Mr Djanogly: Polygamous marriages can not be legally Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply. formed in the UK. Nor is it possible for anyone domiciled 22 data matching pilot schemes are under way, two of in the United Kingdom to enter into a polygamous which (Lothian Valuation Joint Board and Renfrewshire marriage abroad. Where a polygamous marriage is Valuation Joint Board) include more than one local contracted outside the United Kingdom between parties, authority. These local authorities are testing the usefulness neither of whom is domiciled in the United Kingdom, it of matching their electoral registers against a selection will be recognised. of public databases to identify people missing from the The Office for National Statistics produces estimates register or entries on the register that may be inaccurate of the population by marital status. These estimates or fraudulent. The ability of a local authority to provide cover single (never married), married, widowed and its data for the purposes of the data matching schemes divorced statuses. No assessment is made of the number ends on 30 November 2011. The Electoral Commission of polygamous households. will evaluate each scheme by 1 March 2012. There is some anecdotal evidence of people entering The participating local authorities are: into polygamous marriage in the UK through religious Borough of Blackpool ceremonies that are not registered by the state and are Borough of Colchester not recognised under UK law. Due to the fact that these Lothian Valuation Joint Board (City of Edinburgh, East Lothian, marriages are not legally recognised there is no indication Midlothian and West Lothian) of how many such polygamous relationships exist. Any District of Forest of Dean parties to such relationships do not share the same London Borough of Greenwich rights as a legally married couple, such as access to financial remedies available on divorce or inheritance London Borough of Newham rights on the death of one of the spouses, and are Renfrewshire Valuation Joint Board (Renfrewshire, East treated as cohabitants. The Government have carried Renfrewshire and Inverclyde) out some work with the Muslim community to encourage Borough of Rushmoor mosques to undertake the civil aspects of marriage and London Borough of Southwark to raise awareness of the need for marriages to be City of Sunderland legally recognised. Borough of Wigan County of Wiltshire Prison Accommodation London Borough of Camden District of Forest Heath Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the (a) certified normal accommodation and (b) City of Glasgow operational capacity was of each prison and young City of Manchester offenders establishment on (i) 1 January 2008, (ii) City of Peterborough 1 January 2009, (iii) 1 January 2010, (iv) 1 January 2011 County of Shropshire and (v) 1 October 2011. [73759] 403W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 404W

Mr Blunt: This information is not available in the http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ format requested. The total certified normal prisons-and-probation/prison-population-figures/index.htm accommodation and operational capacity of each These figures have been drawn from administrative establishment in the NOMS custodial estate is published IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording for the last working Friday of every month. Figures for system, are subject to possible errors with data entry the last working Friday in December 2007, December and processing. 2008, December 2009, December 2010 and September 2011 are set out in the following tables. This information is published monthly on the MOJ website via the attached link:

Friday 28 December 2007 Friday 19 December 2008 Certified normal Certified normal Establishment accommodation Operational capacity accommodation Operational capacity

Acklington/Castington 1,282 1,292 1,346 1,356 Altcourse 794 1,288 794 1,324 Ashfield 400 400 400 400 Ashwell 534 544 599 619 Askham Grange 126 128 126 128 Aylesbury 437 444 437 444 Bedford 322 494 322 506 Belmarsh 799 909 800 910 Birmingham 1,121 1,450 1,109 1,450 Blantyre House 122 122 122 122 Blundeston 421 466 481 526 Brinsford 473 489 545 569 Bristol 420 606 424 614 Brixton 606 798 606 798 Bronzefield 450 465 450 465 Buckley Hall 350 385 346 381 Bullingdon 759 963 879 1,114 Bullwood Hall 170 184 180 228 Bure — — — — Canterbury 196 294 195 314 Cardiff 524 754 548 824 Channings Wood 698 731 696 729 Chelmsford 541 695 541 695 Coldingley 370 392 494 513 Cookham Wood 17 17 90 102 Dartmoor 619 646 629 656 Deerbolt 447 452 453 453 Doncaster 771 1,146 771 1,146 Dorchester 143 257 145 259 Dovegate 800 860 800 860 Downview 358 358 359 359 Drake Hall 315 315 315 315 Durham 591 981 594 985 East Sutton Park 98 100 98 100 Eastwood Park 326 362 326 362 Erlestoke 410 410 470 470 Everthorpe 603 689 603 689 Exeter 316 533 316 533 Featherstone 663 679 663 687 Feltham 762 762 762 762 Ford 541 541 557 557 Forest Bank 800 1,124 800 1,160 Foston Hall 283 290 283 291 Frankland 732 749 733 750 Full Sutton 600 612 592 604 Garth 812 812 812 847 Gartree 570 575 645 650 Glen Parva 668 808 668 808 Gloucester 225 321 225 321 405W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 406W

Friday 28 December 2007 Friday 19 December 2008 Certified normal Certified normal Establishment accommodation Operational capacity accommodation Operational capacity

Grendon/Spring Hill 548 548 533 533 Guys Marsh 520 578 520 578 Hatfield 260 260 260 260 Haverigg 622 635 622 644 Hewell 1,178 1,427 1,173 1,431 High Down 821 925 999 1,103 Highpoint (North and South) 1,158 1,187 1,213 1,237 Hindley 523 523 515 515 Hollesley Bay 330 330 345 345 Holloway 498 501 500 500 Holme House 857 994 857 994 Hull 723 1,040 723 1,044 Huntercombe 360 365 360 365 Isis — — — — Isle of Wight 1,502 1,627 1,535 1,658 Kennet 175 342 174 341 Kingston 199 200 175 175 Kirkham 590 590 590 590 Kirklevington Grange 223 223 283 283 Lancaster 96 177 159 243 Lancaster Farms 480 527 480 517 Latchmere House 207 207 207 207 Leeds 678 1,000 780 1,084 Leicester 210 392 210 392 Lewes 458 558 623 723 Leyhill 512 512 512 512 Lincoln 436 738 432 730 Lindholme 930 990 922 1,010 Littlehey 663 706 663 726 Liverpool 1160 1,439 1,166 1,445 Long Lartin 426 464 452 499 Low Newton 291 328 298 336 Lowdham Grange 640 680 640 690 Maidstone 451 482 451 482 Manchester 954 1,269 948 1,269 Moorland 740 791 740 794 Morton Hall 392 392 392 392 Mount 747 764 747 768 New Hall 393 443 393 447 North Sea Camp 306 306 318 318 Northallerton 153 252 147 252 Norwich 447 557 447 557 Nottingham 379 550 379 550 Onley 640 640 640 640 Parc 838 1,138 838 1,200 Pentonville 799 1,152 813 1,152 Peterborough (Male and Female) 840 1,008 840 1008 Portland 519 557 579 624 Preston 429 750 453 800 Ranby 912 1,038 969 1,098 Reading 182 287 186 289 Risley 1,050 1,095 1,050 1,095 Rochester 392 392 626 626 Rye Hill 600 600 600 664 Send 216 216 278 278 Sheppey 1,968 2,222 1,966 2,220 Shepton Mallet 165 189 165 189 Shrewsbury 175 328 177 332 Stafford 680 680 721 721 Stocken 715 742 779 816 407W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 408W

Friday 28 December 2007 Friday 19 December 2008 Certified normal Certified normal Establishment accommodation Operational capacity accommodation Operational capacity

Stoke Heart 516 632 574 676 Styal 450 460 450 460 Sudbury 563 571 581 581 Swansea 240 422 240 422 Swinfen Hall 600 620 604 624 Thorn Cross 322 321 322 322 Usk/Prescoed 317 428 317 428 Verne 560 595 560 595 Wakefield 748 751 748 751 Wandsworth 965 1,475 1,086 1,644 Warren Hill 222 222 222 222 Wayland 657 717 955 1,017 Wealstun 885 907 505 527 Wellingborough 636 646 638 646 Werrington 160 162 160 162 Wetherby 360 384 342 374 Whatton 758 821 776 841 Whitemoor 464 458 464 458 Winchester 380 544 499 706 Wolds 320 380 320 395 Woodhill 641 807 641 819 Wormwood Scrubs 1,173 1,256 1,176 1,277 Wymott 1,005 1,062 1,081 1,144

Friday 18 December 2009 Friday 31 December 2010 Friday 30 September 2011 Certified normal Operational Certified normal Operational Certified normal Operational Establishment accommodation capacity accommodation capacity accommodation capacity

Acklington/Castington 1,346 1,356 1,353 1,355 1,297 1,299 Altcourse 794 1,324 794 1,324 794 1,204 Ashfield 400 400 407 360 407 383 Ashwell 184 204 184 214 -- -- Askham Grange 126 128 126 128 126 128 Aylesbury 437 444 421 444 424 444 Bedford 321 506 321 506 322 506 Belmarsh 800 902 800 933 800 957 Birmingham 1,109 1,450 1,088 1,450 1,093 1,450 Blantyre House 122 122 122 122 122 122 Blundeston 481 526 409 454 409 454 Brinsford 545 569 545 577 545 577 Bristol 424 614 420 606 412 622 Brixton 606 798 530 798 530 798 Bronzefield 470 485 527 527 527 527 Buckley Hall 350 385 350 385 410 445 Bullingdon 879 1,114 879 1,114 879 1,114 Bullwood Hall 220 228 220 228 220 228 Bure 120 120 503 523 503 523 Canterbury 195 314 195 314 195 314 Cardiff 548 824 554 824 539 814 Channings Wood 696 729 698 731 698 731 Chelmsford 554 695 554 695 554 747 Coldingley 494 513 494 513 494 513 Cookham Wood 120 120 143 143 143 143 Dartmoor 582 609 493 514 501 522 Deerbolt 513 513 513 513 513 513 Doncaster 771 1,146 713 1,145 713 1,145 Dorchester 137 259 146 260 146 260 Dovegate 1,060 1,120 1,060 1,180 1,060 1,135 Downview 358 359 291 291 291 291 Drake Hall 315 315 315 315 315 315 409W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 410W

Friday 18 December 2009 Friday 31 December 2010 Friday 30 September 2011 Certified normal Operational Certified normal Operational Certified normal Operational Establishment accommodation capacity accommodation capacity accommodation capacity

Durham 606 1,011 606 1,014 606 1,017 East Sutton Park 98 100 98 100 98 100 Eastwood Park 326 362 333 363 333 363 Erlestoke 470 470 370 370 494 494 Everthorpe 603 689 603 689 603 689 Exeter 315 537 316 545 316 545 Featherstone 642 655 642 655 671 687 Feltham 762 762 762 762 762 762 Ford 557 557 557 557 521 521 Forest Bank 914 1,274 1,064 1,424 1,064 1,364 Foston Hall 283 291 283 298 290 310 Frankland 859 859 859 859 844 844 Full Sutton 591 603 596 608 596 608 Garth 812 847 812 847 811 846 Gartree 689 689 677 677 677 677 Glen Parva 668 808 652 808 649 808 Gloucester 225 321 225 321 213 321 Grendon/Spring Hill 553 553 573 573 571 571 Guys Marsh 520 578 452 509 452 509 Hatfield 260 260 260 260 260 260 Haverigg 622 644 622 644 622 644 Hewell 1,173 1,431 1,173 1,431 1,003 1,261 High Down 999 1,103 999 1,103 999 1,103 Highpoint (North and 1,299 1,323 1,299 1,323 1,299 1,323 South) Hindley 440 440 440 440 440 440 Hollesley Bay 345 345 365 365 365 365 Holloway 496 496 531 531 533 591 Holme House 857 994 1,034 1,212 1,034 1,212 Hull 723 1,044 723 1,044 723 1,044 Huntercombe 360 365 275 275 370 370 Isis — — 252 252 478 622 Isle of Wight 1,562 1,698 1,569 1,705 1,550 1,686 Kennet 175 342 175 342 175 342 Kingston 199 199 199 199 199 199 Kirkham 590 590 592 592 592 592 Kirklevington Grange 283 283 283 283 283 283 Lancaster 159 243 161 243 — — Lancaster Farms 480 530 480 530 480 530 Latchmere House 207 207 207 207 — — Leeds 829 1,154 776 1,088 792 1,120 Leicester 210 392 210 392 210 398 Lewes 623 723 495 507 624 714 Leyhill 532 532 530 530 523 523 Lincoln 436 738 427 729 427 729 Lindholme 930 1,010 914 994 930 1,010 Littlehey 663 726 1,143 1,206 1,023 1,086 Liverpool 1,176 1,449 1,157 1,423 1,176 1,448 Long Lartin 622 622 622 622 622 622 Low Newton 269 307 259 282 298 336 Lowdham Grange 640 690 900 930 900 920 Maidstone 565 600 565 600 565 600 Manchester 949 1,268 949 1,268 917 1,256 Moorland 727 772 453 486 633 681 Morton Hall 392 392 392 392 — — Mount 747 768 747 768 747 768 New Hall 393 447 392 446 392 446 North Sea Camp 318 318 318 318 378 378 Northallerton 147 252 142 242 146 252 Norwich 625 767 625 767 625 767 411W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 412W

Friday 18 December 2009 Friday 31 December 2010 Friday 30 September 2011 Certified normal Operational Certified normal Operational Certified normal Operational Establishment accommodation capacity accommodation capacity accommodation capacity

Nottingham 379 550 723 1,060 723 1,060 Onley 710 710 710 710 710 710 Parc 838 1,200 946 1,258 1,170 1474 Pentonville 909 1,272 909 1,272 915 1310 Peterborough (Male and 840 1,008 840 1,008 840 1,008 Female) Portland 535 555 463 483 464 505 Preston 453 842 453 840 455 842 Ranby 969 1,098 892 1,098 892 1,098 Reading 190 293 190 293 190 293 Risley 1,050 1,095 1,050 1,095 1,050 1,095 Rochester 724 724 649 649 664 664 Rye Hill 600 664 600 625 600 625 Send 282 282 282 282 282 282 Sheppey 2,007 2,259 2,501 2,810 2,519 2,828 Shepton Mallet 165 189 165 189 165 189 Shrewsbury 184 340 184 340 182 340 Stafford 741 741 725 741 725 741 Stocken 779 816 779 842 839 902 Stoke Heart 576 692 634 750 634 750 Styal 448 458 451 460 450 459 Sudbury 581 581 581 581 581 581 Swansea 230 402 240 428 240 445 Swinfen Hall 604 654 604 654 604 654 Thorn Cross 322 322 322 322 322 322 Usk/Prescoed 320 434 335 449 357 481 Verne 572 595 571 606 572 607 Wakefield 750 750 748 750 749 749 Wandsworth 1,107 1,665 1,107 1,665 1101 1,665 Warren Hill 222 222 128 128 128 128 Wayland 957 1,017 957 1,017 958 1,017 Wealstun 505 527 810 832 810 832 Wellingborough 638 646 514 522 580 588 Werrington 160 162 160 160 160 160 Wetherby 408 408 384 384 393 393 Whatton 734 821 776 841 776 841 Whitemoor 464 448 452 452 458 458 Winchester 499 706 499 706 499 706 Wolds 320 395 320 395 320 360 Woodhill 656 819 656 819 656 840 Wormwood Scrubs 1,176 1,281 1,176 1,281 1,116 1,221 Wymott 1,081 1,144 1,113 1,176 1,113 1,176

Prison: Video Linkup Number of occasions PCVL used 2011 at HMP Peterborough Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice on how many days the video linkup system at July 49 Peterborough Prison has been fully operational in the August 50 last three months; and what assessment he has made of September 30 the costs to the justice system of the system not being fully operational. [73772] It is not possible to predict the exact cost that would Mr Blunt: The Prison Court Video Link (PCVL) have been saved on extra prisoner escorts while the system at HMP Peterborough underwent necessary repair system was being repaired, as the number of usages can during the period from late August to early October vary month on month. However, as an indication, we 2011. This led to less usage of the system while these calculate that the saving made by using PCVL instead repairs were undertaken. The system is now fully of escorts to court in July 2011, the last full month operational. when the system was fully operational, was £16,400 for The following table provides a comparison of the the 49 occasions used. September’s lower usage of PCVL usage at HMP Peterborough during the three 30 occasions is therefore likely to have saved around months July 2011 to September 2011. 39% less than normal expectations. 413W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 414W

Prisons: Contracts for services 2009-10 figures have been restated in line with this change, earlier figures have not been recalculated and Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice are, therefore, not available. how much his Department paid to the contractors running (a) HMP Doncaster, (b) HMP Peterborough, Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State (c) HMP Lowdham Grange, (d) HMP Bronzefield, for Justice (1) in how many cases on appeal dealt with (e) HMP Ashfield, (f) HMP Parc, (g) HMP Altcourse, by the Tribunals Service decisions were overturned in (h) HMP Forest Bank, (i) HMP Wolds, (j) HMP the latest period for which figures are available; [73564] Dovegate, (k) HMP Birmingham, (l) HMP Featherstone (2) what the average length of time was for which a and (m) HMP Rye Hill in the financial year (i) 2010-11, person waited to have their case heard by the Tribunals (ii) 2011-12 and (iii) 2012-13. [73847] Service in the latest period for which figures are available; and how many people waited longer than (a) Mr Blunt: The information requested by the right six months and (b) 12 months; [73565] hon. Member is provided in the following table. The (3) how many cases were waiting to be heard by the values quoted are based on the invoiced amounts paid Tribunals Service on the most recent date for which to contractors. The same actual invoiced amounts for figures are available. [73566] financial years 2011-12 and 2012-13 are therefore not available at present. Mr Djanogly: In April 2011, Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) was created, bringing Name of prison 2010-11 (£) together Courts and Tribunals into one organisation. HMP Altcourse 47,349,574 There are, including the Upper Tribunal Chambers, HMP Ashfield 24,929,971 35 Tribunal jurisdictions within HMCTS. The information HMP Bronzefield 26,691,539 requested for all Tribunals could be provided only at HMP Doncaster 24,143,901 disproportionate cost. The three largest jurisdictions HMP Dovegate 36,986,311 within HMCTS—social security and child support, HMP Forest Bank 36,394,936 immigration and asylum and employment tribunals— accounted for 93% of receipts for the business year HMP Lowdham Grange 25,744,375 2010-11. Information has, therefore, been provided for HMP Parc 46,515,892 these jurisdictions. HMP Peterborough 31,901,497 HMP Rye Hill 18,244,416 (1) The following table shows the number of cases (or HMP Wolds 9,195,005 jurisdictional complaints for employment tribunals) found in favour of the appellant for the full year, 1 April 2010 HMP Birmingham only very recently transferred to 31 March 2011 and for 1 April to 30 June 2011. operations across to the new contractor (from 1 October Number of successful cases: 1 April 2010 to 31 March 2011 and for 2011), and as yet no funds have been paid against 1 April to 30 June 2011 invoices. 1 April 2010 to 1 April 2011 to Tribunal 31 March 2011 30 June 2011 HMP Featherstone is due to receive its first prisoners in April 2012 and so no invoices have been paid to the Social security and 96,000 (35%) 28,900 (35%) contractor to date. child support Employment 128,100 (12%) 6,000 (11%) tribunals Tribunals Service Immigration and 262,800 (41%) 13,000 (39%) asylum Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 This is the number of employment tribunal jurisdictional claims Justice (1) what resources he has allocated to the Tribunals that were disposed of and found to be successful (in favour of the Service to reduce the number of cases waiting to be claimant) at a tribunal and excludes settlements. A claim can contain a number of grounds, known as jurisdictional complaints. In any heard in the latest period for which figures are available; hearing, the tribunal has to decide upon the merits of the claim [73568] made under each jurisdiction. 2 (2) how many people were employed by the Tribunals Based on decisions at hearing and on the papers. Service to hear appeals in each of the last five years. Employment tribunals determine disputes between [73569] employers and employees over employment rights. As party v. party tribunals, employment tribunals differ Mr Djanogly: In April 2011, Her Majesty’s Courts from all other administrative tribunals. and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) was created, bringing HMCTS publishes statistical information (the latest together Courts and Tribunals into one organisation. to 30 June 2011) at: The total gross operational budget for the tribunal http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ element of HMCTS for 2011-12 is £279.4 million. The tribunals/quarterly.htm allocated funding has not been assigned specifically for In addition, details of the social security and child cases waiting to be heard but on sitting levels needed to support tribunal’s performance is also published monthly, achieve the optimum level of performance. most recently to 31 August 2011. In 2009-10, there was an average of 1,519 full-time (2) It has not been possible to collate the average equivalent tribunal panel members. In 2010-11 there waiting for employment tribunals and immigration and was an average of 1,620 full-time equivalent tribunal asylum cases within the time frame required for this panel members. The method of calculating ’Full Time answer. However, I will write to the hon. Member to Equivalent’ members changed in 2010-11 and while the provide the information once it has been collated. 415W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 416W

The average waiting time for the social security and It is not possible to identify how many staff deal child support (SSCS) tribunal measures the time from specifically with ESA appeals. The following table shows the receipt of the appeal in the tribunal to the time that the number of staff employed by the Social Security its disposal. In August 2011, the average clearance time and Child Support (SSCS) tribunal (the lowest level to from receipt to disposal for all SSCS benefits combined which the figures can be broken down) as at the end of was 24.4 weeks. each month between January 2010 and June 2011 (the The following table shows the percentage of cases latest period for which published figures are available). disposed of in April to June 2011, aged more than six The tribunal hears appeals on a range of benefits, of months and more than 12 months old1. which ESA is one. There was an increase in headcount 1 This data reflects the age of the case at the time that it was of 236 over the time period. Of this, 68 were permanent disposed—the best data we have at this time to reflect “waiting” staff and 168 staff on fixed term contracts. HMCTS times. disposed of 37,200 SSCS appeals in June 2011, up 55% from 24,100 in January 2010. Percentage of cases aged more than six months and 12 months Percentage of cases Percentage of cases Social Security and Child Support tribunal staff numbers January disposed of aged disposed of aged 2010 to June 2011 more than six more than Number of staff1 Tribunal months old 12 months old January 2010 794 Social security and 40 5 February 2010 791 child support March 2010 789 April 2010 786 Employment 58 38 May 2010 800 tribunals: June 2010 815 singles 35 14 July 2010 824 multiples 83 65 August 2010 847 September 2010 847 Immigration and 17 1 October 2010 886 asylum November 2010 891 The measures cannot be directly compared between December 2010 912 one tribunal and another because of different processes. January 2011 958 (3) Information is not collected on the number of February 2011 958 cases waiting to be heard. The following table shows the March 2011 984 caseload outstanding at 30 June 2011. April 2011 1,013 May 2011 1,029 Caseload outstanding 30 June June 2011 1,030 Caseload outstanding at 1 Tribunal 30 June 2011 The data is taken from management information. The figures quoted refer to the total number of people employed and includes Social security and child support 179,700 those who work part-time or on a full-time basis and on temporary or fixed-term contacts. Some of the staff included may work in multi- Employment tribunals 503,100 jurisdictional centres dealing with other work as well as social security Immigration and asylum 34,500 and child support appeals. Approximately three-fifths of the outstanding employment tribunal caseload related to ’multiple’ claims Wormwood Scrubs: BBC (collections of two or more of these cases are grouped and managed together). They are often legally and Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice factually complex and at any point in time is it common pursuant to the answer of 7 September 2011, Official for such cases to be ’stayed’, meaning that they are not Report, column 632W, on Wormwood Scrubs: BBC, ready to have a final hearing at that time for some what reasons have been given for the delay from the reason; for example due to awaiting the decision of an BBC and Mentron in making the payment. [72241] appellate court on case management or other interim matters. Mr Blunt: We have not sought clarification from Work Capability Assessment: Appeals Mentorn about the time it took for the invoice to be paid. We have received the payment in full and are satisfied with this transaction. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many staff were employed by the Tribunals Service to deal with appeals against work capability Youth Justice Board assessment decisions in each month of (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. [72788] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals what budget he has allocated to the Youth Justice Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against Department Board for (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13. for Work and Pensions decisions on entitlement to [73789] Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) (decisions in which the work capability assessment is a key factor) Mr Blunt: The Youth Justice Board received the rather than appeals against work capability assessment following amounts of grant in aid funding from the decisions themselves. Ministry of Justice: 417W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 418W

(a) 2010-11: £434.17 million Department since 1997; what the total monetary value (b) 2011-12: £389.939 million was of such programmes; and if he will place a list of (c) 2012-13: We have provided the YJB with an indicative such programmes in the Library. [72239] allocation of £384.973 million. This figure is still under review and will not be finalised until the beginning of the financial year. Danny Alexander: The majority of capital spending The YJB also receives Capital Funding from the programmes are not funded through private finance MOJ as well as funding from other Government initiatives. Each Department will have a list of spending Departments. on capital projects, however HM Treasury does not hold a central list of individual capital programmes Youth Offending Teams across Government. Treasury publishes twice yearly the PFI Data Summary of spend on PFI projects. Treasury Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice does not collect information on individual non-PFI what funding youth offending teams received in total in spending projects. each year since 2007. [71427]

Mr Blunt: Total funding to youth offending teams INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT during each financial year since 2007 is given as follows: Developing Countries: Nutrition £ Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 2007-08 343,430,286 for International Development what steps his Department 2008-09 361,370,945 is taking to improve awareness of (a) nutrition and (b) 2009-10 372,071,247 agriculture in developing countries; and if he will make These amounts are different from the totals given in a statement. [72775] Appendix A, Table A.2 of the published Youth Justice Statistics 2009-10. This is because grants from the YJB Mr O’Brien: The UK is committed to long-term for Intensive Supervision and Surveillance (ISS), youth efforts to tackle hunger and undernutrition, as captured crime prevention, Re-settlement and Aftercare Provision in our recently published strategy “Scaling Up Nutrition: (RAP) and Prevention of Violent Extremism (PVE) are the UK’s position paper on undernutrition”. It sets out not included in the total given in Table A.2. the steps the Department will take to comprehensively scale up its nutrition programmes over the next four Total funding figures for 2010-11 have not been published years, reaching 20 million children under the age of five, yet as they are still undergoing final audit processes in addition to humanitarian assistance. prior to publication (scheduled for January 2012). The Government are also working with international partners to address issues of food security. In June, G20 Agriculture Ministers agreed an action plan on food TREASURY price volatility and agriculture to take forward concrete actions in this area. On the basis of the action plan and Banks: Finance through work of international organizations—DFID has taken specific actions including; strengthening research, innovation and dissemination, mobilizing the G20 Mr Crausby: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer agriculture research networks and promoting efforts to (1) what estimate he has made of the proportion of UK scale up responsible investments and activities related banks which take up their full allocation of European to agricultural production and food security, in cooperation Investment Bank funding; [72719] with the multilateral development banks and the private (2) what happens to any European Investment Bank sector. funding allocated to UK banks but left unclaimed. [72720]

Justine Greening: In accordance with its statute, the EDUCATION European Investment Bank (EIB) does not make a Apprentices specific funding allocation to UK banks. Currently, four UK banks have access to EIB facilities: Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Barclays, Santander, Royal Bank of Scotland, and Lloyds Education what proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds were Banking Group. undertaking an apprenticeship in each of the last five financial years; and what proportion he expects to Capital Investment: Government Departments participate in an apprenticeship in each year to 2014-15. [72510] Simon Wright: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member Mr Hayes [holding answer 10 October 2011]: The for Oldham West and Royton of 14 June 2011, Official following table sets out the proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds Report, column 701W, how many capital expenditure undertaking apprenticeships using academic years. Figures programmes that have not used the private finance are not available by financial year. Plans beyond 2011/12 initiative have been undertaken by each Government are subject to review and are not yet available. 419W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 420W

Participation rates for 16-18-year-olds on apprenticeships, England Academic years 2010/11 2011/12 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 (provisional) (projection)

All 16-18 Apprenticeships (%) 5.8 5.7 5.5 5.1 5.6 6.8 Population 2,013,000 2,018,300 2,023,600 1,992,000 1,947,700 1,905,400 Notes: 1. Age is age at the beginning of the academic year, i.e. 31 August. 2. Percentages are based on a snapshot count of what people were participating in at the end of the calendar year, i.e. 2010/11 is based on end 2010 snapshot estimate. 3. Population estimates for academic year ages are derived by DFE from mid-year estimates and projections provided by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) and the Government Actuary’s Department (GAD). 4. 2011/12 snapshot of projections have been derived from the whole year learner volumes publishes in the 2011-12 16-19 Funding Statement (December 2010) and are currently being reviewed as part of the work for the 2012-13 16-19 Funding Statement which is due to be published in November 2011. 5. Forecasted volume will change as more current data and analysts becomes available.

Departmental Legal Opinion £ Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Davitt Jones Bould 1,500.60 Education what the average hourly rate paid was to DLA Piper UK LLP 252,782.70 external (a) solicitors and (b) barristers engaged by his Field Fisher Waterhouse LLP 62,369.75 Department in 2010-11; what guidance his Department Michelmores LLP 70,525.23 uses in commissioning external legal advice; and if he Pinsent Masons 174,850.60 will publish (i) the names of each external (A) solicitor and (B) barrister engaged by his Department in 2010-11 The Department does not keep a separate record of and (ii) the sums paid in each case. [72563] the names of external barristers instructed or sums paid. Extracting this information for the period 2010-11 Tim Loughton: The Department does not keep a from the Department’s central payments system could central record of hourly rates paid to external solicitors be done only at disproportionate cost. and cannot therefore provide average hourly rates. Where possible, the Department instructs barristers from the Attorney-General’s panel of Counsel. Details of barristers who are currently on the panel are available ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE from the Treasury Solicitor’s Department website at: www.tsol.gov.uk/attorney_generals_panel_of_counsel.htm Carbon Emissions The Attorney-General’s panel of Counsel is made up of three London panels which are divided according to Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for experience, as well as a regional panel. The maximum Energy and Climate Change what representations his rates paid to barristers on the panels are: Department has received from directorates of the A panel: £120 per hour European Commission on the UK’s carbon floor price. B panel: £100 per hour [73751] C panel: £80 per hour Regional panel: £60 to £110 per hour (depending on experience) Gregory Barker: We are continuing to engage informally with the European Commission as part of our overall For particularly complex and sensitive matters, the policy development related to the Electricity Market Department instructs First Treasury Counsel. The hourly Reform proposal. rate paid to First Treasury Counsel is £220. The EU and the UK share common energy policy The Department is required to seek a nomination objectives. We consider that the approach being adopted from the Attorney-General when it retains leading Counsel. under the GB Electricity Market Reform is consistent Fees in these cases are individually agreed. with the EU’s vision for decarbonisation and security When commissioning external legal advice, the of supply. We support full integration of the UK energy Department uses its internal guidance on the procurement market with the wider EU electricity market. We are of consultancy services. working with the European Commission and other EU For non-contentious matters, the Department instructs stakeholders to ensure that the Electricity Market Reform solicitors’ firms selected from a panel. This panel has package is consistent with, and complementary to, been established under a framework agreement to provide developing EU energy policy. legal services to Government bodies and is managed by As set out in chapter 2 of the Government’s Electricity the Government Procurement Service (formerly known Market Reform White Paper, the CPF complements the as Buying Solutions). Between the beginning of April EU ETS by strengthening the carbon price signal in the 2010 and the end of March 2011, the following sums UK electricity generation sector, enabling higher levels were paid to panel firms: of investment in low-carbon infrastructure and therefore a faster rate of decarbonisation. Going forward, we £ would support an EU-wide tightening of the EU ETS Bevan Brittan 989.00 in order to meet ambitious carbon emission reduction Bird and Bird 12,207.00 targets in the EU, and to meet the long-term EU objective of reducing emissions by 80% to 95% by 2050. 421W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 422W

Carbon Emissions: Shipping Energy Intensive Industries sub-group. This comprises representatives of industry, trade associations, trade Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for unions and includes officials from DECC, the Department Energy and Climate Change what progress he has made of Business Innovation and Skills and HM Treasury. on negotiations to apply a carbon price to international The Government plan to announce the details of the shipping emissions. [73584] package before the end of the year.

Gregory Barker: The UK Government believe that a Feed-in Tariffs global emissions trading system that places a price on carbon would be the best way of reducing international Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for shipping emissions effectively and efficiently. We continue Energy and Climate Change how many community to push for progress towards this goal in the International installations accredited for the feed-in-tariff scheme are Maritime Organization. (a) above and (b) below 50KW. [72975] Last year, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Member for Gregory Barker: At the end of June 2011 there were Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), played an active role in the 494 community installations confirmed onto the Feed- UN Secretary-General’s High Level Group on Climate in-Tariffs (FiTs) scheme. Table 1 splits these out into Financing (AGF), which found that applying a carbon schemes of above and below 50 kilowatts in generation price to the international shipping sector could provide capacity. a feasible source of climate financing. The UK has been Table 1: Numbers of community FiTs installations by pushing for progress on agreeing these recommendations technology and size through the EU, UNFCCC and the G20. Technology 50kW and under Over 50kW

Electricity Generation Hydro 13 1 Photovoltaic 377 0 Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for Wind 100 3 Energy and Climate Change what representations he Total 490 4 has received from the European Commission on electricity market reform. [73805] Since the end of June a further 80 community schemes have been confirmed onto the FiTs scheme. It will be Charles Hendry: We are continuing to engage informally possible to break these down by installed capacity following with the European Commission as part of our overall the publication of the quarterly FiTs statistical publication policy development of the electricity market reform on 27 October 2011. proposals. Energy Supply: Prices Fuel Poverty

Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Energy and Climate Change how he plans to consult and Climate Change what recent estimate he has made energy-intensive industries prior to the announcement of the number of people aged over 60 in fuel poverty in of measures to mitigate the effects on them of (a) England, (b) the West Midlands and (c) Dudley introducing carbon price support. [73040] Borough. [73002]

Gregory Barker: My officials and I are in regular Gregory Barker: The most recent fuel poverty data contact with a wide range of energy intensive industries available for England and the West Midlands is for the on a bilateral and multi-lateral basis. I visited Germany year 2009. The most recent local authority level data on 26 and 27 September in the company of UK chief available is for 2008. Data on fuel poverty is presented executives to see firsthand how German-based energy in terms of the number of households affected. The intensive industries were operating and to learn how the data shows that: German Government encourages greater energy efficiency In 2009, nearly two million households containing someone from their energy intensive industries. The Secretary of aged over 60 in England were in fuel poverty. This represents 27% State for Energy and Climate Change, my right hon. of all households containing someone over 60 in England. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), meets In 2009, 0.3 million households containing someone aged over energy intensive and other UK industry in the Green 60 in the West Midlands were in fuel poverty. This represents 37% Economy Council meetings which he co-chairs with the of all households containing someone over 60 in the West Midlands. Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, In 2008, around 26,000 households in the local authority of my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham Dudley were in fuel poverty. This represents 25% of all households (Vince Cable) and the Secretary of State for Environment, in Dudley. Data on fuel poverty amongst over 60s in Dudley is Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the not available. Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman). My officials have met and continue to meet industry Oil both individually and in wider fora. The principal forum for discussing the development of the package of measures Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for to reduce the effects of Government policy on electricity Energy and Climate Change what consideration his costs for energy-intensive manufacturers whose international further review of regulatory procedures of the UK oil competitiveness is most affected by UK energy and and gas industry will give to the oil leak from Shell’s climate change policy is the Green Economy Council Gannet Alpha platform. [73050] 423W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 424W

Charles Hendry: Prompted by the Gulf of Mexico Gregory Barker: The CfD is being designed to be spill last year, the principal focus of the further review compatible with all forms of low-carbon generation of UK oil and gas regulation is around drilling operations, including marine. which were not, of course, germane to the Gannet event. Given the ongoing nature of the joint DECC/HSE investigation into Gannet, the regulatory review has not DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER examined the matter in detail and would not, therefore, be in a position to offer detailed observations. Laws: Regulations

Renewable Energy: Finance Dr Whiteford: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister which laws and regulations have been repealed since May 2010. [73918] Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what his most recent estimate Mr Harper: In the policy areas for which the Deputy is of the annual average (a) proportion and (b) cash Prime Minister has direct responsibility, the Government amount by which the energy bills of domestic consumers have brought forward important constitutional and political are increased in order to finance and subsidise the reforms which have made a number of changes to the provision of renewable energy. [73542] statute book. This includes the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 which repealed the Septennial Act 1715. Charles Hendry: DECC’s last published assessment in July 2010, available online at: Recall of Members of Parliament http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/about/ec_social_res/ analytic_projs/price_bill_imp/price_bill_imp.aspx Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister estimated that the renewables obligation and feed-in-tariff pursuant to the answer of 24 May 2011, Official Report, scheme were adding £21 (2%) in total to the average column 623W, on Recall of Members of Parliament, household energy (gas plus electricity) bill in 2010 and whether he expects to publish his proposals for recall of this was estimated to increase to £51 (5%) in 2015 and hon. Members by their constituents before the Christmas £105 (9%) in 2020 (all in real 2009 prices). recess. [73952] As explained in the July document, these estimates Mr Harper: Yes. do not take account of the potential offsetting impact from higher levels of renewables pushing down wholesale electricity prices, which previous modelling by Redpoint for DECC suggested could be around £6/MWh on WORK AND PENSIONS average over the period 2010-20. They also do not take Anti-Slavery Day account of changes to energy and climate change policies announced since July 2010. Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for Work An updated assessment of the impact of energy and and Pensions what plans his Department has to mark climate change policies on the energy bills faced by Anti-Slavery Day 2011. [72290] households and businesses will be published alongside the next annual energy statement. Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions has no plans to mark Anti-Slavery Day 2011. Renewables Obligation Computers

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what progress has been Work and Pensions how many laptops were lost by staff made on the Renewables Obligation Certificate banding of his Department in each of the last five years; and review; and when he expects his proposed consultation what penalties were imposed on those staff members as as part of that review to commence. [73954] a result of the losses. [73636]

Gregory Barker: The first phase of the banding review Chris Grayling: The following table shows the numbers on renewables costs and deployment potential conducted of laptop computers recorded by the Department as by DECC for Arup and Ernst and Young has now been having been lost (or stolen) for the calendar years in completed and the report published on the DECC question. website. We intend to publish a consultation on the proposed new bands shortly. Number The new bands will come into effect on 1 April 2013 2010 40 (1 April 2014 for offshore wind). 2009 30 2008 41 Water Power: Feed-in Tariffs 2007 15 2006 28 Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department requires that all its laptop computers Energy and Climate Change whether marine energy are encrypted according to standards prescribed by the projects will be eligible to receive support through his central security authorities. Therefore in the event of proposed feed-in tariff with contract for difference. theft or loss of a laptop computer, the information [73009] contained on the hard drive is secure. 425W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 426W

The Department formally requires its employees to self-funding, are not available other than on a Government safeguard all valuable assets, and local management Office region wide basis. The information is contained will take firm action where an employee neglects such in the following table. responsibilities. This type of disciplinary incident is Non self-funded DLA mobility component recipients in residential care recorded centrally under a broad heading and it is not Number possible to further break the figures down to identify what action was actually taken in specific cases where North East 4,000 employees lost laptops. To attempt to obtain this level North West 8,000 of detail would incur disproportionate cost. Yorkshire and the Humber 7,000 East Midlands 6,000 Crisis Loans West Midlands 7,000 East of England 7,000 Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work London 8,000 and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 6 September South East 13,000 2011, Official Report, column 462W, on crisis loans, South West 9,000 how much has been repaid against crisis loans made in Wales 4,000 each year; and after what period outstanding loans are Scotland 6,000 written off. [72154] Notes: 1. Caseloads are rounded to nearest thousand individuals. 2. Totals may not sum due to rounding. Steve Webb: The following table shows how much has Source: been repaid against crisis loans made in each year. DWP Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study, Feb 2011

Amount repaid against crisis Disability Premium: Glasgow loans (£ million)

2008-09 83.10 Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 119.4 Work and Pensions how many children in (a) Glasgow 2010-11 123.7 and (b) Scotland are currently in receipt of the (i) Notes: disability premium and (ii) enhanced disability premium. 1. The figures are from the annual report by the Secretary of State on [73598] the social fund for the relevant year. 2. Examples of when a debt might be written off because there is no prospect of recovery are: Maria Miller: The information requested is available deceased and no estate to recover from only in respect of income support and jobseeker’s allowance. gone abroad long-term custodial sentence Income support/jobseeker’s allowance claimants with disabled child certain insolvency cases premium/enhanced disabled child premium in Glasgow local authority The social fund does not have a time limit for writing and Scotland—February 2011 off debt. Unless there is no prospect of recovery, the Glasgow local authority Scotland right to recover social fund loans continues to be exercised until the debt is repaid. Income support: Disabled child premium 600 2,400 Departmental Procurement Enhanced disabled child 1300 1,000 premium Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what progress his Department has made Jobseeker’s allowance: in eliminating pre-qualification questionnaires for Disabled child premium 2— 2— procurements with a value of under £100,000. [73830] Enhanced disabled child 2— 2— premium Chris Grayling: The official DWP commercial policy 1 Figures of 500 or less are subject to a degree of sampling variation is that pre-qualification questionnaires are not required and therefore should be used as a guide only to the correct situation. 2 for requirements under £100,000. Nil or negligible. Notes: 1. Figures have been uprated using 5% proportions against 100% Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes WPLS totals. 2. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest hundred. 3. Figures exclude residual minimum income guarantee claimants. Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Work and Pensions how many people living in residential DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal care homes in each local authority claim the mobility Study (WPLS) Information Directorate, 5% samples. component of disability living allowance. [73573] Employment and Support Allowance Maria Miller: Reliable estimates of total disability living allowance claimants in residential care homes are Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work not available as we are unable to identify accurately and Pensions if he will review the amount of any disability living allowance claimants who meet the full personal or occupational pension that is disregarded for cost of their residential care. the purpose of calculating the amount of money received Estimates of the numbers of mobility component through contributory employment and support allowance recipients in residential care homes, who are not fully payments. [72091] 427W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 428W

Steve Webb: The Secretary of State reviews the level reasons for non-attendance, particularly when a claimant’s of the deductions from employment and support allowance medical condition fluctuates daily to such an extent that for occupational and personal pension income as part it prevents attendance. To identify when such circumstances of the annual uprating exercise. may apply, a number of provisions and safeguards have been built into the current process. Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for These provisions ensure decision makers give full Work and Pensions if he will estimate the cost to his consideration to each claimant’s particular circumstances Department of writing to all contributory employment before deciding whether benefit entitlement is affected. and support allowance claimants in the support group It is only when a Decision Maker decides a claimant has to inform them of the entitlement changes to their not shown ″good cause″ for not attending that entitlement benefit. [73575] is changed. Chris Grayling: The Department took a decision to Where ESA is disallowed for failing to return the write to claimants who may be affected by proposals in WCA questionnaire or attend for medical examination, the welfare reform bill to limit the time people can claim ESA is not available pending the outcome of an appeal. contribution based employment and support allowance This avoids the risk of abuse. If benefit were available in in the Work Related Activity Group to 12 months. To this situation it could be paid indefinitely to people who deliver this letter, DWP recently undertook a scan of its repeatedly fail to comply. As such, benefit is payable computer records to identify all claimants that are in only when the questionnaire is completed and returned receipt of contribution-based ESA in the Work Related or the person attends for examination. Activity Group with a view to writing to them. This This is different to the situation where a person included all those already in this category on the day the appeals because they do not agree with a determination, scan was run and those for whom a decision to place in for benefit entitlement purpose’s, that they do not have the Work Related Activity Group had been made and limited capability for work. ESA is available in these input to the IT system with a future start date. cases in recognition that people who disagree with the This scan did not identify claimants in the support decision that they do not have limited capability for group, as they will not be affected by the change. As we work would not necessarily wish to work, or present did not write to this group, no costs were incurred in themselves as well enough to work, until their appeal writing to claimants receiving contribution based had been decided. employment and support allowance in the Support The Department does not collect information in respect Group. of the number of ESA claimants whose benefit has ceased as a result of a failure to attend a WCA or return Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for their medical questionnaire. Work and Pensions (1) whether he carried out an impact assessment of his proposal not to allow access to employment and support allowance during an Employment and Support Allowance: Brighton appeal period; and what account such an impact assessment took of the potential effect on claimants’ health and ability to improve their capacity for work of Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for such a policy; [73604] Work and Pensions what proportion of applications for (2) how many employment and support allowance employment and support allowance made by residents (ESA) claimants have had no access to ESA while in Brighton and Hove unitary authority area were appealing a decision to end their ESA payments due to rejected on the basis of a work capability assessment a failure to (a) return the work capability questionnaire (a) between October 2008 and November 2010 and and (b) attend an ATOS medical assessment for whatever (b) in the latest period which figures are available; and what proportion of such decisions were (i) reversed and reason since its inception; [73605] (ii) upheld on appeal. [72238] (3) if he will make it his policy to provide some financial support to claimants who have no access to employment and support allowance while appealing a Chris Grayling: Decisions on entitlement to employment decision to refuse it. [73606] and support allowance (ESA) using the work capability assessment rest solely with the Department’s decision Chris Grayling: The current policy is that where an makers taking into account the medical assessment ESA recipient who is found fit for work following a reports from Atos and any other relevant information. work capability assessment (WCA) subsequently appeals Table 1 presents data for new ESA claims starting against the decision, they will receive the assessment between October 2008 to November 2010 (this is the phase rate of ESA during the appeals process. Therefore, latest period for which these figures are available) where the amount of money the person receives will not the claimant has been assessed to be fit for work. change. Figures are for initial assessments only and numbers Those ESA claimants who appeal the WCA outcome have been rounded to the nearest 10. of being placed in the Work Related Activity Group Table 1: Fit for work decisions on new ESA claims will continue to receive basic-rate ESA plus the work-related Percentage of all activity component until the outcome of the appeal is Fit for work new ESA claims1 known. Brighton and Hove 1,920 32 Where a claimant fails to attend a WCA appointment, UA benefit entitlement is not automatically withdrawn by a 1 Includes claims that are closed before assessment and those still in decision maker. It is recognised that there can be genuine progress. 429W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 430W

If someone is assessed to be fit for work by DWP From 26 April 2010 all eligible young people were they are no longer entitled to claim ESA. However, they required to take up an offer under the Young Person’s may ask for a revision and/or they may appeal against Guarantee by the 10 month point of their claim. If they the DWP decision. did not take up an offer they were required to take part Table 2 shows appeals heard on fit for work decisions in the Community Task Force. If they did not take part for ESA claims starting between October 2008 and May in this their benefits could be affected. This explains 2010 (this is the latest period for which these figures are why we have only counted sanctions issued on refusing available). Figures are for initial assessments only and offers made under the Community Task Force. numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10 (as a 1 Source—DWP Information Directorate: JSA Sanctions and result, summing of rows may not give the totals shown). Disallowance Decisions Statistics Database. Table 2: Appeals heard on fit for work decisions Housing Benefit Percentage Decision decision in in Percentage Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Work favour favour DWP DWP and Pensions what steps his Department is taking to Appeals of of decision decision allow local authorities to transfer unspent central heard appellant appellant upheld upheld Government funding provided for the annual allowance Brighton 740 420 56 330 44 for discretionary housing payments into the subsequent and Hove financial year. [73589] UA Notes: Steve Webb: Local authorities were advised in September 1. The Department regularly publishes official statistics on the employment that any requests to carry forward into 2012/13 funding and support allowance (ESA) work capability assessment at the for discretionary housing payments would be considered, national level. The latest report, published in July 2011, covers new claimants to ESA for October 2008 to November 2010 (the latest data providing they were made by 30 April 2012 when their available) and can be found at: 2011/12 discretionary housing payments claims were http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/index.php?page=esa_wca made. 2. The data presented above come from benefit claims data held by the Department for Work and Pensions, functional assessment data Industrial Health and Safety: Construction from Atos Healthcare and appeals data from the Tribunals Service. 3. Data on appeal includes ESA claims up to the end of May 2010 (the latest month where we have sufficient volumes of appeals heard Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for to include in the publication) where the person claiming has been Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 14 September assessed to be fit for work, they subsequently appeal the Department’s 2011, Official Report, columns 1173-4W, on industrial decision and the appeal has been heard by Tribunals Service. health and safety: construction, in what employment 4. Due to the time it takes for appeals to be submitted to the Tribunals Service and heard, it is likely that there are more appeals that have not sectors each of the duty-holders prosecuted for health yet been heard. Therefore these figures should be treated as emerging and safety offences in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11 findings rather than final at this stage. operated. [73603]

Employment Schemes: Young People Chris Grayling: I refer the hon. Member to the written answer I gave the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mactaggart), on 11 October 2011, Official Report, columns and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number 349-50W. of claimants who will qualify for his planned mandatory Jobcentre Plus: Telephone Calls work activity scheme. [72048]

Chris Grayling: We envisage that mandatory work Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work activity (MWA) will deliver around 19,000 placements and Pensions what requirements his Department sets per year over the next four years, The scheme is intended in respect of telephone answering timescales; and what to target the small number of JSA claimants who do proportion of telephone calls breached these enough to meet the conditions of their claim while at requirements in (a) local Jobcentre Plus offices and the same time continually failing to demonstrate the (b) national customer services in the latest period for focus and discipline that is a key requirement of finding, which figures are available. [71880] securing and retaining employment. Chris Grayling: The Department operates several national customer service lines that carry different targets relating Employment: Young People to average speed of answer, and not all of them collate the same amount of information. We have supplied the Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage of Calls Answered (PCA); the Average Speed Work and Pensions how many sanctions were issued as of Answer (ASA). Where the data is available, but for a result of a claimant refusing an offer made under the some lines only, we have also supplied the percentage of Young Person’s Guarantee between April 2010 and calls answered in 30 seconds. March 2011. [73590] In addition to the customer service lines for making a claim to benefit or for jobsearch, Jobcentre Plus also Chris Grayling: The number of sanctions issued as a operates a switchboard for claimants to contact their result of a claimant refusing an offer made under the local Jobcentre Plus office. This is operated by Balfour Community Task Force (CTF), the mandatory strand Beatty Workplace (BBW) on behalf of the Department. of the Young Person’s Guarantee, between April 2010 The information that you have requested is not available and March 2011 was 5,1901. because BBW does not collate that information. 431W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 432W

Jobcentre Plus Lines Small Business Recruitment Helpline The performance measure used is the PCA and the Of 2,485 calls offered, 1,953 were answered giving a PCA of minimum target is to answer 90% of offered calls. This 79.7%. The ASA was 00:01:44. is for all lines except Crisis Loan Decision Making and National Insurance Number Allocations (NINO) UK Border Agency where the PCA target is 80% for both. Of 87,896 calls offered, 80,769 were answered giving a PCA of Please note that the figures for Jobcentre Plus are for 91.9%. The ASA was 00:00:32. August. National Benefit Fraud Hotline First Contact Of 19,189 calls offered, 17,208 were answered giving a PCA of Of 429,266 calls offered, 392,797 were answered giving a PCA 90.1%. The ASA was 00:00:48. of 91.7%. The ASA was 00:01:46. Self Service Helpline Employment Support Allowance Of 324 calls offered, 314 were answered giving a PCA of Of 120,653 calls offered, 110,638 were answered giving a PCA 96.9%. The ASA was 00:00:12. of 92.0%. The ASA was 00:01:51. Tax Evasion Hotline Crisis Loan Decision Making Of 4,180 calls offered, 3,671 were answered giving a PCA of Of 513,463 calls offered, 423,486 were answered giving a PCA 88.4%. The ASA was 00:01:11. of 82.7%. The ASA was 00:08:07. Jobseekers Allowance Enquiries (JSA) International Jobsearch Advice Line Of 814,068 calls offered, 664,898 were answered giving a PCA Of 18 calls offered, 17 were answered giving a PCA of 100.0%. of 82.0%. The ASA was 00:04:04. (Please note that as no calls were abandoned, and as all calls got through and were answered there would have been a Short Income Support Enquiries (IS) Abandoned call ie the caller hanging up after getting through). Of 458,010 calls offered, 369,338 were answered giving a PCA The ASA was 00:01:21. of 81.3%. The ASA was 00:03:16. Local Authority Fraud Hotline Incapacity Benefit Enquiries (IB) Of 484 calls offered, 420 were answered giving a PCA of Of 117,042 calls offered, 105,728 were answered giving a PCA 87.9%. The ASA was 00:00:44. of 90.7%. The ASA was 00:01:02. UK Border Agency JSA, IS and IB Welsh Of 17,096 calls offered, 14,482 were answered giving a PCA of Of 219 calls offered, 217 were answered giving a PCA of 84.9%. The ASA was 00:02:16. 99.5%. The ASA was 00:00:01. Jobcentre Plus Total Employment Support Allowance Enquiries (ESA) Of 4,092,937 calls offered, 3,506,775 were answered giving a Of 547,932 calls offered, 448,488 were answered giving a PCA PCA of 86.0%. The ASA was 00:03:21. of 82.2%. The ASA was 00:04:49. IB/IS Reassessment Disability Living Allowance Lines (DLA) Of 22,601 calls offered, 20,603 were answered giving a PCA of The performance measure used is the PCA and the 91.5%. The ASA was 00:01:36. minimum target is to answer 93% of offered calls. We ESA Enquiries and IB/IS Reassessment Welsh do not have a target for speed of answer, but do capture average speed of answer and percentage of answered in Of 128 calls offered, 125 were answered giving a PCA of 30 seconds for all our service lines. 97.7%. The ASA was 00:00:05. Enquire Please note the figures are for September. Of 171,852 calls offered, 161,436 were answered giving a PCA Benefit Enquiry Line of 94.2%. The ASA was 00:01:01. Of 59,694 calls offered, 56,066 were answered giving a PCA of Social Fund 93.9%. The ASA was 00:01:00. Of the ones answered 40.1% were answered within 30 seconds. Of 346,301 calls offered, 311,828 were answered giving a PCA of 90.4%. The ASA was 00:01:50. DLA Attendance Allowance 3rd Party Reps (AA) Maternity Allowance Of 11,101 calls offered, 11,037 were answered giving a PCA of 99.4%, The ASA was 00:00:09. Of the ones answered 95.2% were Of 19,685 calls offered, 18,508 were answered giving a PCA of answered within 30 seconds. 94.4%. The ASA was 00:00:38. DLA AA DWP Maternity Allowance and Social Fund Welsh Of 2,472 calls offered, 2,386 were answered giving a PCA of Of 60 calls offered, 59 were answered giving a PCA of 98.3%. 96.5%. The ASA was 00:00:48. Of the ones answered 42.5% were The ASA was 00:00:01 answered within 30 seconds. Social Fund Applications DLA AA Helpline—Changes of Circumstances Of 75,574 calls offered, 67,391 were answered giving a PCA of 89.5%. The ASA was 00:01:41. Of 58,561 calls offered, 55,792 were answered giving a PCA of 95.3%. The ASA was 00:01:24. Of the ones answered 34.1 % were Jobseeker Direct answered within 30 seconds. Of 252,965 calls offered, 229,293 were answered giving a PCA DLA AA Helpline—Claim Pack of 90.7%. The ASA was 00:00:40. Of 48,894 calls offered, 45,467 were answered giving a PCA of Employer Direct 93.0%. The ASA was 00:01:21. Of the ones answered 31.8% were Of 68,002 calls offered, 59,757 were answered giving a PCA of answered within 30 seconds. 88.1%. The ASA was 00:01:35. DLA AA Helpline—Enquiries E-Business Operational Support Team (EBOST) Of 245,966 calls offered, 232,592 were answered giving a PCA Of 3,444 calls offered, 3,351 were answered giving a PCA of of 94.6%. The ASA was 00:01:35. Of the ones answered 30.1% 97.4%. The ASA was 00:00:18. were answered within 30 seconds. 433W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 434W

DLA AA Helpline—Explanations contained in our ‘Working with Representatives’ guidance Of 22,430 calls offered, 21,930 were answered giving a PCA of on the DWP website. This guidance applies equally to 97.8%. The ASA was 00:00:53. Of the ones answered 39.6% were staff of SSAFA as any other advice organisation. answered within 30 seconds. DLA AA Motability Of 2,184 calls offered, 2,065 were answered giving a PCA of Pension Credit 94.6%. The ASA was 00:00:52. Of the ones answered 39.7% were answered within 30 seconds. Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Totals for the above and Pensions what steps he plans to take to enable the Of 451,302 calls offered, 427,335 giving a PCA of 94.7%. The automatic payment of pension credit; and if he will ASA was 00:01:22. Of the ones answered 34.3% were answered make a statement. [73593] within 30 seconds. Carer’s Allowance Unit Lines (CAU) Steve Webb: The Department for Work and Pensions The performance measure used is the PCA and the has been carrying out a study to assess how information minimum target is to answer 93% of offered calls. routinely collected might be used to ensure that pensioners Please note the figures are for September. get the help that is available through pension credit. CAU Contact Centre Estimated awards of pension credit were paid to a Of 79,953 calls offered, 75,407 were answered giving a PCA of sample of around 2,000 pensioners who, based on the 94.3%. The ASA was 00:01:27. Of the ones answered 40.6% were information already held, appeared to be entitled to but answered within 30 seconds. not receiving pension credit. These payments were made Pension Centre Lines without the normal prerequisite for a claim, and lasted The performance measure used for all service lines is for a period of 12 weeks. PCA and the minimum target is to answer 93% of The delivery phase of the study ran from 15 November offered calls. We do not have a target for ASA although 2010 to 18 March 2011 and evaluation is now underway. it is measured and reported. Early findings from the study will be published in the Figures are for September. week commencing 31 October 2011. State Pension Claims A full report will be published early in 2012. Of 85,218 calls offered, 79,926 were answered giving a PCA of 93.8%. The ASA was 00:00:58. Pension Credit Claims Social Security Benefits: Polygamy Of 84,145 calls offered, 79,753 were answered giving a PCA of 94.8%. The ASA was 00:00:37. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Work State Pension Changes and Pensions how many benefit claims were rejected Of 180,386 calls offered, 170,487 were answered giving a PCA due to the polygamous nature of the applicant’s marriage of 94.5%. The ASA was 00:00:47. in each of the last three years. [73630] Pension Credit Changes Of 188,982 calls offered, 178,134 were answered giving a PCA Chris Grayling: The information requested is not of 94.3%. The ASA was 00:00:39. available. Bereavement Service Of 56,354 calls offered, 53,876 were answered giving a PCA of Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for 95.6%. The ASA was 00:00:32 Work and Pensions to what extent polygamous families Non Regional Pension Centres are recognised in the benefits system; which benefits and credits may be claimed by such families; and if he Of 131,209 calls offered, 127,373 were answered giving a PCA will estimate the (a) total financial cost and (b) of 97.1%. The ASA was 00:00:23. number of recipients of payment of such benefits in Totals for the above the latest period for which figures are available. [73631] Of 726,294 calls offered, 689,549 were answered giving a PCA of 94.9%. The ASA was 00:00:39. Chris Grayling: For income-replacement benefits such as income support, income-based jobseeker’s allowance Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and income-related employment and support allowance, and Pensions if he will give the Soldiers, Sailors, the husband and first wife claim as a couple. Subsequent Airmen and Families Association and its local offices wives receive an additional sum which is less than the the same level of telephone and email access to his single person rate. These benefits are only payable for Department and its associated public bodies as other wives residing in Great Britain. voluntary agencies which assist people with welfare and benefit issues. [71887] Housing benefit and council tax benefit entitlement for polygamous families is limited to those living in one Chris Grayling: DWP works closely with many property. There are no special rules for a husband to organisations which provide support to vulnerable people. claim housing benefit for more than one property if his We would be happy to work with the Soldiers, Sailors, wives live separately. Airmen and Families Association to assist our service The claimant may claim benefit/tax credits (depending personnel with employment, welfare and benefit issues. on claim date) for any child or young person for whom Guidance to our staff on disclosing information to he or a partner of his is responsible and who is a voluntary organisations that work with our claimants is member of the same household. 435W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 436W

Contributory benefits make no provision for polygamous Notes: marriages. Where a man dies leaving two widows, neither 1. Estimates are based upon projections of UK male period life gets bereavement benefit. If at the time of his death he expectancy from the Office for National Statistics 2008-based projections. leaves a single widow, she could qualify for bereavement Life expectancy projections actually available in 1981 and 2005 are benefit. likely to differ and produce a lower proportion of adult life in retirement due to revisions made to the projections in subsequent A member of a polygamous marriage can claim a years. contributory or income-related benefit in their own right 2. Estimates on a consistent basis are not available for 1980, 1981 has where they satisfy the relevant conditions of entitlement. been used instead as the closest available year. Projections are available to 2058. Information regarding the cost and number of 3. State pension age is increased when the proportion of male adult polygamous households is not available. life in retirement for that age meets the proportion taken from the However, the current Government have decided to no specific start year, people retiring between dates will have a higher proportion of adult life spent in retirement. longer recognise polygamous marriages and there are 4. No assumptions are made about provision of sufficient notice for a measures in the Welfare Reform Bill which will bring future state pension age change, nor the necessary legislative timetable. this change in policy into effect under universal credit 5. Adult life is defined as age 20 to state pension age, life in retirement as from 2013. is defined as mean life expectancy at state pension age.

State Retirement Pensions Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions if he will estimate the savings to the Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Exchequer which would arise from bringing forward and Pensions if he will estimate the changes which the proposed increase in the state pension age to 67 years would be needed to the state pension age to maintain to (a) 2026, (b) 2030 and (c) 2032. [72364] the average proportion of adult life spent in receipt of a state pension at the same proportion as in (a) 1980, (b) 2005 and (c) 2011. [72363] Steve Webb: Increasing the state pension age to 67 by: (a) 2026 would produce estimated savings in DWP Steve Webb: The information requested is as is as benefit spend of £70.4 billion between 2024/25 and follows: 2035/36; (a) The average proportion of male adult life in (b) 2030 would produce estimated savings in DWP retirement for people reaching state pension age in 1981 benefit spend of £46.2 billion between 2028/29 and was 23.7%. Maintaining this proportion overtime would 2035/36; suggest the following state pension age timetable: (c) 2032 would produce estimated savings in DWP Age Year benefit spend of £32.0 billion between 2030/31 and 2035/36. 66 1985 All estimates are in 2011/12 price terms and rounded 67 1992 to the nearest £100 million. 68 1996 69 2000 Notes: 70 2004 1. The savings estimates presented are calculated in line with the 71 2011 methodology used to prepare the estimates of DWP AME savings 72 2015 published in the impact assessment presented with the Pensions Bill 2011. They take into account lower spending on pensioner 73 2027 benefits and higher spending on working age benefits and incorporate 74 2041 changes to long term assumptions following the publication of 75 2055 the Office of Budget Responsibility’s July 2011 Fiscal Sustainability report. (b) The average proportion of male adult life in 2. The estimates are based on the current welfare system. Reliance retirement for people reaching state pension age in 2005 on income-related pension benefits and working age benefits is was 31.3%. Maintaining this proportion overtime would assumed to remain in line, with current age-specific rates of suggest the following state pension age timetable: reliance. 3. A baseline of the state pension age reaching 66 by April 2020 is Age Year assumed with an increase to 67 between 2024 and 2026. The brought forward increases to 67 occur over a two-year period. 66 2014 67 2027 68 2042 Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 69 2057 and Pensions if he will estimate the cost to the Exchequer which would arise from capping the increase in the state (c) The average proportion of male adult life in pension age for an individual to a maximum of (a) 18 retirement for people reaching state pension age in 2011 months, (b) 15 months and (c) 12 months. [72365] was 32.2%. Maintaining this proportion over time would suggest the following state pension age timetable: Steve Webb: The following estimates assume that the Age Year timetable proposed in the Pensions Bill 2011 is applied until the relevant cap comes into force. The cap is 66 2022 applied until it is either no longer relevant, as the 67 2037 Pensions Bill timetable implies an increase lower than 68 2053 the cap, or a state pension age of 66 is reached. 437W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 438W

(a) The cost of capping the increase in state pension The UK’s benefit payment systems do not record the age to a maximum of 18 months compared to the nationality of people receiving benefits and therefore it change in spend from the current Pensions Bill proposal is not possible to determine the number of claimants of is estimated at £1.1 billion between 2019-20 and 2020-21. each nationality. I have, however, commissioned work (b) The cost of capping the increase in state pension to make information available on the nationality of age to a maximum of 15 months compared to the benefit claimants. change in spend from the current Pensions Bill proposal Access to income-related benefits1 by non-European is estimated at £2.4 billion between 2018-19 and 2020-21. Economic Area nationals is strictly limited. They are (c) The cost of capping the increase in state pension excluded from such benefits because they are subject to age to a maximum of 12 months compared to the immigration control, which prevents them from receiving change in spend from the current Pensions Bill proposal public funds. Access to these benefits is therefore dependent is estimated at £4.3 billion between 2018-19 and 2020-21. on the type of leave the Home Office grants the individual. Notes: Those who have worked in the UK and paid national insurance contributions may claim contributory benefits 1. The savings estimates presented are calculated in line with the methodology used to prepare the estimates of DWP AME savings such as contribution-based jobseeker’s allowance if they published in the impact assessment presented with the Pensions satisfy the contributions and other conditions for the Bill 2011. They take into account lower spending on pensioner benefit. benefits and higher spending on working age benefits and incorporate 1 Income support, income-based jobseeker’s allowance, income-related changes to long-term assumptions following the publication of employment and support allowance; pension credit, housing benefit the Office of Budget Responsibility’s July 2011 Fiscal Sustainability and council tax benefit. report. 2. The estimates are based on the current welfare system. Reliance Universal Credit on income-related pension benefits and working age benefits is assumed to remain in line with current age-specific rates of reliance. Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for 3. A baseline of the state pension age reaching 66 by April 2020 is Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the assumed in line with the proposals set out in the Pensions Bill number of households in (a) the UK and (b) Scotland 2011. that are in receipt of tax credits that will have their universal credit payment (i) capped and (ii) reduced Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work below their existing tax credit entitlement as a result of and Pensions what estimate he has made of the likely the application of rules on the treatment of capital effect of auto-enrolment on the amount spent on pensions under the universal credit scheme. [73574] tax relief in each income decile in (a) 2012, (b) 2013, (c) 2014, (d) 2015 and (e) 2016. [72366] Chris Grayling: A package of transitional protection is being developed in order to ensure that there will be Steve Webb: The Department’s estimate of the impact no cash losers as a direct result of the move to universal of tax relief on individual’s pension contributions arising credit where circumstances remain the same. from automatic enrolment in each year between 2012-13 Departmental analysis estimates that in the long run and 2016-17 is shown in Table 1. Information on the around 100,000 households in Great Britain who would impact by income decile is not available. have been in receipt of tax credits may be affected by Table 1: Estimated additional tax relief on employee pension the capital rules (capital limit and tariff reduction) in contributions arising from automatic enrolment between 2012-13 and universal credit. 2016-17 Due to a small sample size it is not possible to Estimated cost of tax relief provide a robust estimate for Scotland. (£ million) This analysis has been modelled using the Department’s 2012-13 5 Policy Simulation Model (PSM) based on the Family 2013-14 64 Resources survey (FRS). 2014-15 138 2015-16 183 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 2016-17 489 Work and Pensions whether a claimant will move from Notes: universal credit to tax credits if they transfer from an 1. Estimates are derived from DWP modelling. 2. Estimates are expressed in 2011-12 levels and are rounded to the employer making universal credit real time PAYE nearest £1 million. notifications to one who does not before 2017. [73592]

Chris Grayling: It is expected that once a claimant Unemployment Benefits has migrated onto the universal credit system, he/she will remain on universal credit and not return to a Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for legacy benefit/credit. Work and Pensions what estimate has been made of the An alternative system for gathering earnings data number of (a) non-EEA nationals, (b) EEA nationals which for those outside of the PAYE is likely to be and (c) UK nationals claiming out-of-work benefits in developed by DWP system, primarily the self employed each of the last five years. [73183] and could be used in this scenario. It is envisaged that this system will be an on-line self service process. We Chris Grayling: The information requested is not will move to development during 2012 and will give available. claimants the appropriate information in due course. 439W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 440W

Work Capability Assessment: Appeals 128,000 WCAs have been completed for IB reassessment claimants. After the WCA, the decision on entitlement Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for to benefit is taken by a DWP decision maker. Work and Pensions what the cost to his Department The Information on the number of WCAs completed was of appeals made to the Tribunals Service against above is from the Department’s Management Information work capability assessment decisions in (a) 2009, (b) System. It relates to those assessments where Atos have 2010 and (c) 2011 to date. [72787] made a recommendation based on either a face to face assessment or cleared by scrutiny of the customer’s Chris Grayling: The introduction of employment support medical questionnaire. It does not include those customers allowance (ESA) in October 2008 was accompanied by whose WCA recommendations were returned to Job-centre the new work capability assessment (WCA). The WCA Plus because they had not complied with the process. is based on advice delivered by the Department for A monthly breakdown of the management information Work and Pensions (DWP) assessment contractors, ATOS is not reliable because the data is captured by week. Healthcare. This means that for those weeks that cross over a month If, following a work capability assessment, someone end the data cannot be attributed to any particular is found fit for work, they are no longer entitled to claim calendar month. In addition, as it was never the intention ESA. However they may appeal against the decision. to publish this information, it has not been subject to the same rigorous quality assurance processes that are Published information and statistics for ESA claims used for official statistics and as a result they should be and work capability assessments are available on the used with a degree of caution. Department’s website: Due to the overall length of the incapacity benefits http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/ index.php?page=esa_wca_arc reassessment process, information on the entire process including the final outcomes and subsequent destinations Jobcentre Plus, an agency of the Department for of claimants being reassessed is not yet available. Individual Work and Pensions, is responsible for the administration level data are being collected, but it will take time to of the work capability assessment appeal process before complete because of the overall length of the reassessment these are passed to the Tribunal Service. process. The Department plans to publish data on the The cost to Jobcentre Plus of WCA appeals made to outcomes of the reassessment process but only once it the Tribunals Service for 2009, 2010 and 2011 year to has been quality assured and is considered robust. date (YTD) is shown in the following table:

£ million Financial year 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 YTD CABINET OFFICE WCA appeals 6.4 12.1 5.7 Notes: Childbirth: Neonatal Mortality 1. The costs stated in this response only relate to the direct staff costs incurred by Jobcentre Plus. Nick de Bois: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2. The costs are recorded in financial years which run from April to March the following year. Office how many (a) live births and (b) stillbirths there 3. The period 2011-12 YTD relates to WCA appeals from April 2011 were in each region of England in 2010. [73595] to July 2011. Source: Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Jobcentre Plus Activity Based Management system responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Volumes of WCA appeals have increased each year asked the authority to reply. from when ESA was introduced as more customers Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2011: claim the benefit. This has lead to an increased proportion As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I of WCAs resulting in customers being classified as ‘Fit have been asked to reply to your recent question asking how many for Work’, whereby claimants have subsequently appealed (a) live births and (b) stillbirths there were in each region of against this decision. England in 2010 [73595]. The following table provides the number of live births and Work Capability Assessments stillbirths in each region in England for 2010, the most recent year for which figures are available. Information on live births and stillbirths is routinely published Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for on the ONS website. The most recent figures for England and Work and Pensions how many work capability assessments Wales (2010) are available at: of claimants previously in receipt of incapacity benefit www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/characteristics-of-birth-1-- were completed in each month of 2011 to date. [73638] england-and-wales/2010/rft-cb1-2010.xls Table 1: Live births and stillbirths, regions in England, 2010 Chris Grayling: The reassessment of existing incapacity Number benefits customers using the work capability assessment Area of usual residence (WCA) was rolled out nationally from February 2011. of mother Live births Stillbirths Letters are being issued as planned to 11,000 claimants per week informing them that their reassessment is England 687,007 3,506 about to commence. To manage the process smoothly, volumes were gradually ramped up from the end of Regions February, and the numbers reached 11,000 per week in North-east 30,826 143 May. As at the end of September 2011, approximately North-west 89,199 466 441W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 442W

Table 1: Live births and stillbirths, regions in England, 2010 Table 1: Number of claimants1 that flowed off jobseeker’s allowance— Number seasonally adjusted Area of usual residence Number of mother Live births Stillbirths March 2011 324,700 Yorkshire and The 66,970 373 April 2011 314,400 Humber May 2011 291,500 East midlands 55,232 293 June 2011 298,300 West midlands 72,090 382 July 2011 288,500 East 73,001 345 August 2011 297,500 London 133,111 742 1 These flow figures are collected for 4 or 5 week periods between South-east 106,434 507 count dates, the figure above has been standardised to a 4 1/3 week South-west 60,144 255 month. Source: Source: Jobcentre Plus Administrative System Office for National Statistics Social Media: Civil Servants Civil Servants: Pensions Dr Huppert: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Mr Donohoe: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet what (a) discussions he has had and (b) representations Office what recent progress has been made on the he has received on (i) existing and (ii) future guidance mutualisation of MyCSP; and if he will make a statement. on the use of social media by civil servants and public [73616] sector workers. [73787]

Mr Maude: The transformation of My Civil Service Mr Maude: The existing guidance on the use of social Pension is currently under way. On 5 July 2011 we media by civil servants was published in 2008, and is created the company and we are currently in the process available online on the civil service website at: of identifying a private sector partner for My Civil http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/resources/participation- Service Pension. online As this process is currently in progress it would be I have had no meetings or representations on amending inappropriate for me to make any further comment at the guidance. The existing guidance for civil servants is this time. under review.

Jobseeker’s Allowance Third Sector

Stephen Timms: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Tim Farron: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many claimants flowed off jobseeker’s Office when he expects to bring forward legislative allowance in each month from August 2010 to August proposals to set the framework for charitable incorporated 2011. [73591] organisations. [73583]

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Mr Hurd: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock asked the authority to reply. (Jackie Doyle-Price) on 10 October 2011, Official Report, Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2011: column 113W. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Trade Unions how many claimants flowed off Jobseeker’s Allowance in each month from August 2010 to August 2011. (73591) Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Table 1 following shows the number of claimants who flowed off Jobseekers Allowance, resident in the UK, in each month when he expects to (a) begin and (b) complete his from August 2010 to August 2011. These figures have been consultation on reforming facility time arrangements standardised onto a 4 and a 1/3 week basis. for trade union representatives; and when he expects to National and local area estimates for many labour market implement new measures to regulate facility time. statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant [73627] count are available on the NOMIS website at: http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Mr Maude: We are immediately reviewing trade union facility time across the civil service and will publish the Table 1: Number of claimants1 that flowed off jobseeker’s allowance— seasonally adjusted results. Once the review is complete we will start consultation Number with trade unions. August 2010 324,500 Trade Unions: Civil Service September 2010 322,600 October 2010 325,700 Priti Patel: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office November 2010 329,200 if he will introduce measures to make the use of facility December 2010 333,700 time by trade union representatives more transparent; and if he will require that details must be recorded January 2011 341,500 in respect of all facility time used by trade union February 2011 328,300 representatives in the Civil Service. [73626] 443W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 444W

Mr Maude: Yes. We will publish the results of the Arms Trade review we are undertaking into trade union facilities time and we will introduce transparency on the use of Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for trade union facilities time going forward. Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department expects to charge for each approval process for licensing Young People: Unemployment the export of arms and weapons. [72405]

Mrs Riordan: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Prisk: The Export Control Organisation within Office what proportion of people aged 18-24 years are the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, has unemployed in Halifax; and what proportion were been discussing with exporters the possibility of charging unemployed in May 2010. [74002] for strategic export licences. These informal discussions will continue. The Government will consult, including Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the on the structure and level of the fees, as and when this responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have becomes a firm Government proposal. asked the authority to reply. Construction Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated October 2011: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what proportion of people aged 18-24 years are unemployed in Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Halifax; and what proportion were unemployed in May 2010. made of the contribution to the economy of exports (074002) from the construction industry. [73615] Estimates of the proportion of people aged 18 to 24 years unemployed in Halifax parliamentary constituency area are not Mr Prisk: The latest data from HMRC Overseas available. As an alternative we have provided the proportion of Trade Statistics, the UK Balance of Payments (The people aged 18 to 24 years who were claiming Jobseeker’s Allowance Pink Book) and ONS Business Monitor MA4 Foreign (JSA) in Halifax. In May 2010, this was 11.2 per cent and in Direct Investment show that the UK exported some September 2011 was 13.6 percent. £7.5billion worth of construction services and products National and local area estimates for many labour market in 2009. This compares with a total of £386.7 billion statistics, including employment, unemployment and JSA count worth of total UK exports of goods and services in are available on the Nomis website at: 2009. http://www.nomisweb.co.uk UKTI, in partnership with BIS, has reviewed how it targets its sector based support, to ensure value for money from its resources. This review has mapped UK BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS capabilities against the projected evolution of global demand, across a broad range of sectors. This has Export Control Policy indicated that the construction sector had one of the highest growth rates in UK exports in the last three Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for years to 2009 and with projected strong global demand Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to his written to 2014. ministerial statement of 18 July 2011, Official Report, Defence Equipment: Finance columns 78-79WS, on export control policy (review), what offensive naval, air and land-based military Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for platforms have been supplied from the UK to (a) Business, Innovation and Skills how much his Department Bahrain, (b) Egypt, (c) Libya, (d) Syria, (e) Tunisia contributed towards the cost of supporting the Defence and (f) Yemen; and in which years. [73544] and Security Equipment International exhibition at the ExCel Centre between 13 and 16 September 2011. Mr Prisk: The earliest we have been able to search [72406] our electronic records is 1999 for standard individual export licences (SIELs) and 2001 for open individual Mr Prisk: I refer the hon. Member to the answer export licences (OIELs). given to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Our records indicate two standard individual export Lucas) on 23 June 2011, Official Report, column 445W. licences have been issued for the supply of armoured Information on costs to UK Trade & Investment Defence personnel carriers to Libya: & Security Organisation (UKTI DSO) of the Defence 1. Issued in February 2007 for the supply of up to two and Security Equipment International exhibition Capability armoured personnel carriers. Showcase is not expected to be confirmed for some 2. Issued in September 2008 for the supply of up to ten time. Final costs will take account of the income to be armoured personnel carriers. received from UK defence companies which received We cannot verify whether these items were actually specific assistance and support from UKTI DSO at the exported. event. No licences were identified for Bahrain, Egypt, Syria, Higher Education Tunisia and Yemen. All applications, including those for export to Libya, Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for are carefully assessed against the Consolidated EU and Business, Innovation and Skills what information (a) National Arms Export Licensing Criteria taking into Ministers and (b) officials of his Department have account the prevailing circumstances at the time of sought on the for-profit higher education system in (i) application. the US and (ii) Europe. [73556] 445W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 446W

Mr Willetts: The Government have taken account of Mr Willetts: It is not the normal practice of the a range of publications addressing alternative models Government to disclose details of their discussions with of higher education provision. A further key way we foreign governments. I am aware of developments in the gather such information is through meeting regularly US for-profit higher education system and the particular with providers of higher education, including for-profit concerns raised in the Justice Department’s lawsuit. But institutions, both in the UK and internationally. A the comparison is an imperfect one. Funding incentives quarterly-updated list of all BIS Ministerial meetings are different and the UK has a highly regarded system with external organisations is available at: of quality assurance, with the Quality Assurance Agency http://data.gov.uk/dataset/disclosure-ministerial-hospitality- for Higher Education responsible for upholding standards received-department-for-business in UK universities and colleges. BIS officials will also have had meetings with a range of I meet regularly with a wide range of providers of higher education providers, but a comprehensive record higher education in the UK and internationally. The of these is not maintained. Department does not hold comprehensive information on whether higher education providers Ministers have Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for met are classed as for-profit or not-for-profit institutions. Business, Innovation and Skills on what dates officials Quarterly-updated list of all BIS ministerial meetings of his Department have had meetings with private with external organisations is available at: higher education providers since May 2010. [73614] http://data.gov.uk/dataset/disclosure-ministerial-hospitality- received-department-for-business Mr Willetts: BIS officials meet regularly with a wide BIS officials will also have had conversations with a range of providers of higher education. A comprehensive range of higher education providers. A comprehensive record of such meetings is not maintained. record of such meetings is not maintained.

Higher Education: Private Sector Post Offices Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills for what reason Warburg Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Pincus attended a meeting of for-profit and private Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking higher education providers in (a) December 2010 and to encourage and support community-run post offices. (b) January 2011; and if there have been any subsequent [73472] meetings between Warburn Pincus and (i) Ministers and (ii) officials of his Department. [73555] Mr Davey: There are already many community operated post offices in a range of urban and rural locations, and Mr Willetts: I held two meetings with a range of these community post offices show how a mutual model private higher education providers in December 2010 is already working well at the local level. The Government and January 2011 to discuss how more private investment are currently consulting on proposals that could, in in, and provision of, higher education could be encouraged. time, see Post Office Ltd converted to a mutual structure. There have been no subsequent meetings between Mutual ownership could give community representatives Warburg Pincus and myself, the Secretary of State for a direct say in how Post Office Ltd is run. Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend The management of Post Office Ltd ensures that the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), or other strict access criteria, which see over 99% of the national BIS Ministers. A quarterly-updated list of all BIS ministerial population live within three miles of a post office, are meetings with external organisations is available at: met. It does this by managing contractual relationships http://data.gov.uk/dataset/disclosure-ministerial-hospitality- between the company and local sub-postmasters across received-department-for-business the country, including many who operate community-run A comprehensive record of meetings between BIS officials post offices. and external organisations is not maintained. Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Higher Education: USA Business, Innovation and Skills how many community- run post offices there are in (a) the UK and (b) Kent. Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for [73473] Business, Innovation and Skills (1) whether (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Department have had discussions Mr Davey: The information requested is an operational with the US Justice Department on its lawsuit concerning matter for Post Office Ltd. I have therefore asked Paula for-profit higher education providers; [73548] Vennells, the managing director of Post Office Ltd, to respond directly to my hon. Friend, and for a copy of (2) what (a) discussions and (b) meetings (i) he, her reply to be placed in the Libraries of the House. (ii) ministers and (iii) officials in his Department have had with (A) providers of for-profit higher education who have businesses based in the US, (B) the US Government Accountability Office, (C) the US Department Regional Growth Fund of Education, (D) the US Senate Committee for Health, Education, Labor and Pensions, (E) US elected Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for representatives and (F) higher education lecturers and Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to announce practitioners from the for-profit higher education sector the first allocation of funds under the regional growth in the US. [73563] fund. [73629] 447W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 448W

Mr Prisk: An announcement on the first round of Households in local authority accommodation, England successful regional growth fund bids was made on Households (thousand) 12 April. Bids received in the second round of bidding 2004 2,469 are being assessed and we aim to make announcements in the autumn. 2005 2,250 2006 2,244 2007 2,211 2008-09 1,887 2009-10 1,745 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Sources: 1981 to 1991: Labour Force Survey Housing Trailer Audit Commission: Allowances 1992 to 2007: Labour Force Survey 2008-09 and 2009-10: English Housing Survey Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Empty Property Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 16 February 2011, Official Report, columns 830-1W, on Audit Commission: allowances, if he will Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for publish a breakdown of the hospitality expenses, including Communities and Local Government what estimate he venue, individual cost, purpose and attendees, for each has made of the number of empty homes (a) returned of the directors with aggregate hospitality claims referred into use to date and (b) to be returned to use by October 2012 as a direct consequence of the provision to in that answer of more than £500. [72437] of £100 million for the purpose under the comprehensive Grant Shapps: This is an operational matter for the spending review. [72418] Audit Commission and I will ask the chief executive of the Audit Commission to write to my hon. Friend Andrew Stunell: We expect the £100 million set aside direct. within the Affordable Homes Programme to bring empty Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 12 October 2011: homes back into use to deliver at least 3,300 homes. The money is available from April, and the criteria for bids Your Parliamentary Question has been passed to me on this fund will be published shortly. to reply. Two directors had aggregate hospitality claims totalling over Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for £500 in 2009. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Details of claims by David Walker, Managing Director of oral answer of 5 September 2011, Official Report, Communications and Steve Bundred, Chief Executive have been placed in the Library of the House. column 11, on empty homes, what mechanisms he plans to use to dramatically accelerate the process of bringing empty homes back into use. [72675] Council Housing Andrew Stunell: We have accelerated the process of Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for bringing empty homes back into use by providing powerful Communities and Local Government what estimate he tools and incentives to support local communities to has made of the number of people renting council tackle empty homes. Through the New Homes Bonus, accommodation in each of the last 30 years. [72054] communities will receive a direct financial reward for bringing an empty home back into use. We are also Andrew Stunell: The following table includes the investing £100 million through the Affordable Homes Department’s published estimates in terms of numbers Programme to tackle empty homes directly. I announced of households in local authority housing in England. on 20 September 2011 that community and voluntary The estimates are subject to a margin of error being organisations will be able to bid for part of this funding. based on sample surveys. In due course we will also be consulting on plans to Households in local authority accommodation, England allow councils local discretion to introduce a council Households (thousand) tax premium on homes in their area that have been empty for more than two years. 1981 5,100 1984 4,660 1988 4,246 EU Grants and Loans 1991 3,872 1992 3,785 Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for 1993 3,671 Communities and Local Government with reference to 1994 3,560 his Department’s press notice of 1 August 2011, on 1995 3,489 European Regional Development Funding, how much 1996 3,375 funding has been lost in financial corrections and 1997 3,263 unrecoverable amounts due to irregularities in the 2000 1998 3,209 to 2006 programme. [72392] 1999 3,093 2000 2,904 Robert Neill: There has been £101.3 million in financial 2001 2,879 corrections and unrecoverable amounts arising from 2002 2,735 irregularities from the European Regional Development 2003 2,542 Fund 2000-06 programme throughout the period 2000-11. 449W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 450W

The Fund programme has been plagued by a legacy (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of the of poor administration and fines that dates back to New Homes Bonus on formula grant for Gateshead 2000. The coalition Government have overhauled the metropolitan borough council; and if he will take steps management of these schemes, bringing them in-house, to ensure that the formula grant allocated to Gateshead and successfully minimising the liabilities. is not reduced as a result of the introduction of the The measures that this Government have taken have bonus; [74194] been recognised by the European Commission. (3) if he will make it his policy not to reduce Administration of European Regional Development Formula Grant to local authorities as a result of the Fund 2000-06 programme had been the responsibility introduction of the New Homes Bonus. [74200] of the Government Offices for the Regions. Following the closure of the Government Offices, management of Robert Neill: We have already made clear our policy the Fund programme moved in-house to the Department on the funding of the New Homes Bonus. The full for Communities and Local Government on 1 April 2011. amount of the New Homes Bonus for 2011-12 was met from Department for Communities and Local Government Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for funding. For each of the years 2012-2013, 2013-2014 Communities and Local Government with reference and 2014-2015, £250 million was allocated to the New to his Department’s press notice of 1 August 2011, on Homes Bonus from Department for Communities and European Regional Development Funding, what the Local Government funding. Funding beyond these levels reasons are for the funding which cannot be recovered will come from Formula Grant. due to irregularities in relation to each project in the Under the provisional 2012-13 Settlement we transferred 2000 to 2006 programme. [72393] £176 million from formula grant to fund the New Homes Bonus. Transition grant guarantees that no authority Robert Neill: The information requested, consistent will receive a reduction in its spending power of more with the figures published in the Department’s Annual than 8.8% in both 2011-2012 and 2012-13. Report and Accounts 2010-11, has been placed in the The New Homes Bonus will ensure that the economic Library of the House. benefits of housing growth are returned to the local In compiling the information we have not included area, so encouraging and rewarding the construction of those debts which the Department has recorded as a new homes in the north of England and across the charge on the accounts but in respect of which it may Country. still be continuing to pursue the recovery of amounts recorded. We have also withheld information in a case which is the subject of an EU audit and where disclosure Housing: Sustainable Development of the information would be incompatible with European Community obligations. The information provided was correct as of 31 March 2011 when the Annual Report Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Accounts were drawn up; some of this information and Local Government what information his Department may no longer be current with regard to the projects holds on the impact on the average cost of construction identified. of an average home of achieving the equivalent of level 6 of the Code for Sustainable Homes; and if he will The European Regional Development Fund programme make a statement. [R] [72226] has been plagued by a legacy of poor administration and fines that dates back to 2000. The coalition Government has overhauled the management of these schemes, bringing Andrew Stunell: The Code for Sustainable Homes is them in-house, and successfully minimising the liabilities. the voluntary national standard for the design and construction of sustainable new homes. The Department Homes and Communities Agency: Government recently published a report updating the estimated cost Procurement Card of implementing the various levels of the code. ‘Cost of Building to the Code for Sustainable Homes—updated cost review’ is available on the Department’s website at: Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many staff http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ of the Housing and Communities Agency and its planningandbuilding/codeupdatedcostreview predecessor were disciplined for misuse or abuse of the Government Procurement Card between 2005-06 and Landlords 2009-10. [72423]

Andrew Stunell: There were no disciplinary cases Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for identified by the Homes and Communities Agency and Communities and Local Government if he will assess its predecessors for misuse or abuse of the Government the merits of introducing statutory landlord accreditation. Procurement Card between 2005-06 and 2009-10. [72279]

Housing Andrew Stunell: Many local authorities already operate voluntary landlord accreditation schemes which we Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for welcome. Such schemes work best when they are tailored Communities and Local Government (1) what effect to reflect local market conditions which local authorities the introduction of the New Homes Bonus will have on are best placed to judge. At present, therefore, we have the level of formula grant for local authorities in the no plans to take away this local discretion by setting up North of England; [73756] a nationwide scheme. 451W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 452W

Local Government: Finance Andrew Stunell [holding answer 11 October 2011]: I refer my hon. Friend to my answer of 12 May 2011, Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 1321W,on the Citizenship Survey. Communities and Local Government what steps his As outlined in my Department’s press notice of 10 August Department is taking to allow local authorities to transfer 2010, a copy of which is in the Library, the abolition of unspent funding provided by central Government to the Place Survey will save £5 million of taxpayers’ the subsequent financial year. [73588] money and is part of the coalition Government’s reduction of centrally-imposed burdens on local authorities. My Robert Neill: Unless otherwise specified by grant Department corresponded with the Local Government conditions, local authorities can use Government funding Association who supported the decision to cancel the across financial years. survey, and with the UK Statistics Authority who had no objection. Metals: Theft

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Temporary Employment: Contracts and Local Government whether he has made an estimate of the cost to local authorities of replacing metal items Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities which have been stolen in (a) England, (b) the West and Local Government whether his Department issues Midlands and (c) Dudley borough in the last year. guidance to local authorities on the contracting of [73149] agency staff; and if he will place in the Library a copy of any such guidance. [73158] Robert Neill: No such estimates have been made. Information on this is not held centrally. Robert Neill: None. The Local Government Employers leads on providing guidance on a wide range of pay and Natural Gas: Safety workforce matters for local authorities, including guidance on the new Agency Workers Regulations which came Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for into force on 1 October 2011. This information can be Communities and Local Government what steps he is accessed by the link: taking to ensure that landlords comply with the legal http://www.lge.gov.uk/lge/core/page.do?pageId=8780369 requirement to arrange for registered Gas Safe engineers to carry out annual gas safety tests in their properties. [73707] Travellers: Planning Permission Andrew Stunell: Landlords are responsible for the safety of their tenants. The Gas Safety (Installation and Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Use) Regulations 1998 deals with landlords’ duties to Communities and Local Government what estimate he make sure gas appliances, fittings and flues provided for has made of the number of Gypsy and Traveller caravans tenants are safe. located on sites granted retrospective planning permission in (a) each local authority area and (b) England (i) in The Health and Safety Executive gives gas safety a each of the last five years and (ii) since May 2010. high priority and will take the appropriate action, often [73625] working with the local authority, to ensure compliance with the regulations; this could result in a substantial fine and/or a custodial sentence. Andrew Stunell: The Government do not collect this information. To help ensure landlords and tenants are aware of their responsibilities on 3 September we published advice for those either letting or renting a property, including a ‘Dos and Don’ts’ factsheet for landlords and ‘Dos and Waste Disposal: Domestic Waste Don’ts’ factsheet for tenants. Both factsheets set out that it is a legal requirement for the landlord to provide Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for a gas safety certificate if there are gas appliances in the Communities and Local Government what formula has property, to arrange an annual gas safety check carried been agreed for the distribution of the additional funding out by a Gas Safe registered engineer and to provide the for local authorities to obtain or sustain weekly refuse tenant with the certificate within 28 days of each annual collection services; and if he will make a statement. check. The fact sheets also provide a link to information [73678] on the Health and Safety Executive’s frequently asked questions page and details of their Gas Safety Advice Robert Neill: No formula is needed for the distribution Line. of funding under the new Weekly Collection Support scheme. It is intended that the scheme will operate as a Surveys challenge fund, with the amount of money being available to each local authority depending on the content and Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for quality of their bid. As outlined in the written ministerial Communities and Local Government what representations statement of 10 October 2011, Official Report, column he has received on the ending of the Citizenship Survey 1WS, up to £250 million will be available in total under and The Place Survey; and what analysis his Department this fund and further details of the scheme will be made undertook on the effects of ending these surveys. [72606] available in due course. 453W Written Answers12 OCTOBER 2011 Written Answers 454W

ATTORNEY-GENERAL the CPS concluded that there was not sufficient evidence to proceed to court. [73552] The Attorney-General: Between September 2010 and Crown Prosecution Service August 2011, the CPS reviewed, in accordance with the Code for Crown Prosecutors, a total of 930,457 cases; Mr Frank Field: To ask the Attorney-General how 46,544 of those cases did not progress because there many cases the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has was not sufficient evidence to proceed to court. The reviewed for trial in the last 12 months for which CPS does not hold reliable data which distinguishes the figures are available; and in how many of those cases stage of review.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 12 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 324 WALES—continued Engagements...... 324 Employment ...... 320 Feed-in Tariffs...... 322 WALES...... 315 Inward Investment ...... 317 Devolution...... 323 Private Sector Job Creation...... 319 Economic Growth...... 321 Youth Unemployment...... 315 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 12 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 29WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 31WS Workplace Rights...... 29WS Somali Piracy (Funding Regional Maritime Capacity-Building Projects) ...... 31WS DEFENCE...... 30WS Libya (Operation Ellamy) ...... 30WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 32WS Licensing Hours (Queen’s Diamond Jubilee) ...... 32WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 30WS Offshore Energy Strategic Environmental PRIME MINISTER ...... 33WS Assessment ...... 30WS Intelligence and Security Committee Report...... 33WS PETITION

Wednesday 12 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .5P Access by Landlords...... 5P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 12 October 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 453W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Crown Prosecution Service...... 453W continued Empty Property ...... 448W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 443W EU Grants and Loans...... 448W Arms Trade...... 444W Homes and Communities Agency: Government Construction...... 444W Procurement Card...... 449W Defence Equipment: Finance...... 444W Housing ...... 449W Export Control Policy...... 443W Housing: Sustainable Development ...... 450W Higher Education...... 444W Landlords ...... 450W Higher Education: Private Sector...... 445W Local Government: Finance ...... 451W Higher Education: USA...... 445W Metals: Theft ...... 451W Post Offices ...... 446W Natural Gas: Safety ...... 451W Regional Growth Fund ...... 446W Surveys ...... 451W Temporary Employment: Contracts...... 452W CABINET OFFICE...... 440W Travellers: Planning Permission...... 452W Childbirth: Neonatal Mortality...... 440W Waste Disposal: Domestic Waste ...... 452W Civil Servants: Pensions ...... 441W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 441W Social Media: Civil Servants ...... 442W DEFENCE...... 380W Third Sector...... 442W Armed Forces: Recruitment ...... 380W Trade Unions ...... 442W EU Defence Policy ...... 380W Trade Unions: Civil Service...... 442W EU Defence Policy: Offices ...... 381W Young People: Unemployment...... 443W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 447W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 424W Audit Commission: Allowances ...... 447W Laws: Regulations...... 424W Council Housing...... 447W Recall of Members of Parliament ...... 424W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 418W HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Apprentices...... 418W UK Border Agency: Armed Forces...... 379W Departmental Legal Opinion ...... 419W UK Border Agency: Translation Services...... 380W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 420W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 418W Carbon Emissions...... 420W Developing Countries: Nutrition ...... 418W Carbon Emissions: Shipping...... 421W Electricity Generation...... 421W JUSTICE...... 400W Energy Supply: Prices ...... 421W Bill of Rights Commission: European Court of Feed-in Tariffs...... 422W Human Rights ...... 400W Fuel Poverty...... 422W Civil Disorder ...... 400W Oil...... 422W Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme ...... 401W Renewable Energy: Finance ...... 423W Electoral Register...... 401W Renewables Obligation...... 423W Judicial Review: Public Sector...... 402W Water Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 423W Polygamy ...... 402W Prison Accommodation ...... 402W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 389W Prison: Video Linkup...... 411W Afghanistan: British Council ...... 389W Prisons: Contracts for services ...... 413W Algeria: Religious Freedom...... 390W Tribunals Service...... 413W Belarus...... 390W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 415W B’Tselem ...... 390W Wormwood Scrubs: BBC ...... 416W China ...... 391W Youth Justice Board ...... 416W China: Human Rights...... 392W Youth Offending Teams ...... 417W Columbia: Human Rights...... 392W Departmental Chief Scientific Advisers ...... 392W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 369W Departmental Official Visits...... 394W Entry Clearances...... 369W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 394W Detainees ...... 394W TRANSPORT ...... 369W Dubai: Detainees ...... 394W Airports: Security...... 369W Indian Subcontinent: Human Rights ...... 395W Blue Badge Scheme...... 370W Kashmir: Foreign Relations ...... 395W Bus Services ...... 370W Kashmir: Human Rights...... 395W Coastguard Agency: Liverpool ...... 370W Kashmir: Peacekeeping Operations...... 396W Great Western Railway Line...... 371W Libya: UN Resolutions ...... 397W Motorways: Speed Limits ...... 371W Middle East: Detainees ...... 397W Railways: Fares ...... 371W North Korea: Detainees...... 397W Railways: Heathrow Airport ...... 372W Palestinians: United Nations...... 398W Rescue Services ...... 372W Sri Lanka: Armed Conflict ...... 398W Thameslink Railway Line: Rolling Stock ...... 373W Third Sector...... 399W West Bank: Schools...... 399W TREASURY ...... 417W Banks: Finance ...... 417W HEALTH...... 381W Capital Investment: Government Departments...... 417W Health and Social Care Bill 2010-12...... 381W Health Professions: Qualifications ...... 382W WALES...... 373W Health Services: Overseas Visitors ...... 382W Higher Education...... 374W Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements ...... 382W Pensioner Poverty...... 374W Hinchingbrooke Health Care NHS Trust...... 384W Private Sector Job Creation...... 373W Hospitals: Greater London ...... 385W Swansea Coastguard Station...... 374W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 385W Medical Records: Databases ...... 386W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 369W Members: Correspondence ...... 386W Departmental Consultants...... 369W NHS: Psychology...... 386W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 369W NHS: Reform...... 387W Orthopaedics: Footwear...... 387W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 424W Waiting Lists: Birmingham ...... 387W Anti-Slavery Day...... 424W Computers ...... 424W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 374W Crisis Loans ...... 425W Anti-Slavery Day...... 375W Departmental Procurement...... 425W Asylum ...... 375W Disability Living Allowance: Care Homes ...... 425W Departmental Consultants...... 375W Disability Premium: Glasgow ...... 426W Departmental Procurement...... 376W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 426W Domestic Violence ...... 376W Employment and Support Allowance: Brighton .... 428W Entry Clearances...... 377W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 429W Finance ...... 377W Employment: Young People...... 429W Members: Correspondence ...... 378W Housing Benefit ...... 430W Police: Ashfield ...... 378W Industrial Health and Safety: Construction ...... 430W Police: Email ...... 378W Jobcentre Plus: Telephone Calls ...... 430W Police: Termination of Employment ...... 378W Pension Credit...... 434W Pre-Departure Accommodation Centre ...... 374W Social Security Benefits: Polygamy...... 434W Primates...... 379W State Retirement Pensions...... 435W Sojourner Project ...... 379W Unemployment Benefits...... 437W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Universal Credit...... 438W Work Capability Assessments ...... 439W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals ...... 439W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 12 October 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 315] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Urgent Question Title [Col. 335] Pat Finucane—(Mr Paterson)

United Kingdom Bioethanol Industry [Col. 352] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Ian Swales)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [Un-allotted day] Jobs and Growth [Col. 356] Motion—(Ed Balls)—on a Division, negatived

Business of the House (17 October) [Col. 451] Motion—(Mr Heath)—agreed to

Tribunals and Inquiries [Col. 453] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Ovarian Cancer [Col. 73WH] Innovation (NHS) [Col. 96WH] Public Transport (Disabled Access) [Col. 103WH] Violence against Women and Girls [Col. 128WH] Commonwealth Partners (Resources and Co-operation) [Col. 137WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 29WS]

Petition [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 369W] [see index inside back page]

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