Wednesday Volume 547 4 July 2012 No. 25

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 4 July 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 899 4 JULY 2012 900 House of Commons Welfare Reform 2. Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Wednesday 4 July 2012 (Lab): What assessment he has made of the effects of welfare reform on Northern Ireland. [114371] The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen PRAYERS Paterson): The reforms that we have introduced give us a rare opportunity to transform our welfare system into one that is fair to all, looks after the most vulnerable in [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] society, and above all, always rewards work.

Mr Clarke: In view of recent criticisms of the Work Oral Answers to Questions programme and the Prime Minister’s view that housing benefit for the under-25s should be discontinued, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the Government’s NORTHERN IRELAND policy is for youngsters? Is it to create jobs or simply to tolerate their exploitation? The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Paterson: I think the right hon. Gentleman Fuel Laundering underestimates the fact that the issue is devolved, and we are working closely with the devolved Minister with 1. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): What responsibility in this area and other Ministers in the discussions his Department has had with HM Treasury Executive on the arrangements which will be debated on loss of revenue as a result of fuel laundering in shortly as the Bill is taken through the Assembly. It is Northern Ireland. [114370] very important that local circumstances are taken into account so that the Bill that emerges from the Assembly The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen suits the circumstances in Northern Ireland. Paterson): My Department has regular discussions with HM Treasury on a wide range of issues. Fuel fraud is Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): When does primarily an excise offence and, therefore, an excepted my right hon. Friend expect the Welfare Reform Bill to matter that falls to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, be introduced by the Executive? which works closely with the Department of Justice for Northern Ireland and its counterparts in Ireland. Mr Paterson: I am in regular contact with Nelson Sammy Wilson: Despite the fact that over the past six McCausland, the relevant Minister, and he is optimistic years more than £2 billion has been lost in revenue as a that he will stick to the schedule, which will enable result of criminal activities through fuel laundering, Northern Ireland to come on stream, as planned, with HMRC has taken only 28 cases to court, and there has the Department for Work and Pensions here. been only one custodial sentence, which was suspended. Does the Secretary of State believe that that is an Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Many people in adequate response from HMRC or the court system in Northern Ireland view changes caused by welfare reform Northern Ireland? with increasing concern. Northern Ireland has had 30 years of a terrorist campaign. That has led to many Mr Paterson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his people suffering disability, both physical and mental; question and I appreciate his knowledge of this subject, 15,000 people in Northern Ireland are on incapacity as Minister of Finance and Personnel. He makes a very benefit and employment and support allowance, and good point, which I have discussed with David Ford, 180,000 people are on disability living allowance. Can the Minister of Justice. We have agreed that we should the Secretary of State assure us that every step will be work together so that Northern Ireland sentences can taken to ensure that the unique position of Northern be appealed against if considered too lenient. Ireland is taken into account when it comes to the Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): In the benefits system? Select Committee’s recent report, we identified as a major problem the fact that a marker had not been Mr Paterson: Nobody underestimates the terrible developed sufficiently quickly. Has the Secretary of damage the troubles did to people physically and mentally, State had any discussions with HMRC about the but it is worth reflecting on the fact that high rates of development of that marker, which would make fuel DLA are not unique to Northern Ireland; Merthyr fraud and laundering far more difficult? Tydfil has a rate of 13%, which is very similar to that of Belfast. What I think is important is that for the first Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the Chairman of the time each person will be treated as an individual, his Select Committee for his question and congratulate him circumstances will be taken into account and rehabilitation, on a very interesting report, which showed that real re-education and training will be offered. That has not progress had been made—£250 million lost in forgone come about before. revenue down to £70 million, which is a major improvement. He makes a very good point about marking. There is an Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Given HMRC strategy and there is also a memorandum of that many benefit claimants in Northern Ireland have understanding that has been signed with the Irish Revenue their payments paid directly into Ulster bank and, Commissioners. We keep in close touch on this matter. because of the ongoing debacle caused by the IT problems, 901 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 902 have therefore been unable to access their only source of Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): On that income and their own money, what assurance can the point about Ulster bank and the failure of IT, I have Secretary of State give that he has had robust discussions listened carefully to what the Minister has said, but is it with RBS, his colleagues in the Treasury and the not frankly outrageous and unacceptable that 15 days Department for Work and Pensions, and the Northern after the problem first appeared, individuals, households Ireland Executive, to find a long-term solution to this and businesses still cannot access their money in the agonising problem for many people, which has heaped normal way? Can he outline in more detail what he and on them misery upon misery? his colleagues in the Treasury are doing to provide a little more flexibility for those facing cash-flow problems? Mr Paterson: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise the very real problems that people both in and out Mr Swire: I understand that the right hon. Gentleman of work are suffering due to the IT breakdown. I raised and some of this colleagues are meeting Ulster bank the matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and and RBS this afternoon to represent the views of their the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and constituents, and rightly so. Let us not underestimate Skills yesterday. Sir Philip Hampton, the chairman of this. There are people in the Northern Ireland Office RBS, was in Northern Ireland on Monday and my right who cannot get money either, so this is something very hon. Friend the Minister of State talked with him close to many of us. He will be aware of the press yesterday and is keeping in close touch. Ultimately, this release that RBS issued this morning. It is fair to point is a problem for RBS to resolve internally, through out in my conversation yesterday with Sir Philip Hampton, Ulster bank, by getting the computer technology right, the chairman of RBS, he told me that they would but the hon. Lady is right to raise the matter. This is “treat our customers properly and fairly” causing horrendous problems not just for benefit claimants, and that the bank will but for those in regular employment. “compensate fully for financial loss”. We shall hold the bank to that undertaking. Banking Reform Mr Dodds: I am grateful to the Minister for that 3. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): What discussions answer and for raising the issue of compensation, but he has had with his ministerial colleagues on the likely does he agree that, as well as reimbursing customers for implications for Northern Ireland of banking reform direct costs, Ulster bank and RBS must ensure that and financial service regulation. [114372] where financial damage and loss has occurred, whether to a customer, either an individual or business, or a The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo non-customer who has suffered loss as a result of the Swire): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and crisis, compensation in full must be paid in all those I have been in discussion with ministerial colleagues circumstances? I would welcome his support in lobbying about this matter. The action plan announced by my RBS on that point. right hon. Friend the Chancellor on Monday will drive up standards and bring much-needed and long overdue Mr Swire: The right hon. Gentleman will certainly regulation to the sector. have the support of the Secretary of State and myself in ensuring that no one loses out as a result of this IT Mark Durkan: The Minister will recognise that Ulster failure. I was specific on that point to Sir Philip Hampton bank customers are currently experiencing a third-class, and I cannot do more than repeat the words he said to poor standard of care. Does he feel that there is some me, as I have just done. I will also check with him on risk of a similar syndrome whereby Northern Ireland is Monday to ensure that the bank is making progress in only an afterthought in the hierarchy of consideration clearing up this sorry mess, which it says it will do over when it comes to wider banking regulation and reform? the weekend. We all rightly ask about the banking of business, but should more active consideration be given to the future Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): Does the Minister of the business of banking in the region, particularly agree that the ongoing problems at Ulster bank underline given the compound implications of reform and regulation the need to look at how banks operate? Frankly, this is a from London and the changing Irish banking landscape, crisis. Many families cannot pay their mortgages or including moves on banking union? rent, get their groceries, buy food or put petrol in the car, and older people cannot get access to their pensions. Mr Swire: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, as The Minister has told us what he has done, but what is was recognised in his exchange with the Chancellor on he doing to try to sort this mess out? 28 June, when the Chancellor acknowledged that Mr Swire: I have a transcript of the shadow Secretary “Northern Ireland has suffered enormously from the failure of banks in the UK and in the Republic, and it has paid perhaps a of State’s two interviews on the “Nolan” show, and I heavier price than anyone else”—[Official Report, 28 June 2012; have read them carefully, but I am none the wiser as to Vol. 547, c. 476.] what he is suggesting. When he was asked about the On the specific point about banking reform, the hon. solvency of some businesses and about liquidity, he said Gentleman will be aware that there is a Banking Reform that White Paper, the consultation period for which closes in “I would expect that government here in Westminster but also September, so I urge him to contribute. On Ulster bank, government at Stormont needs to consider what to do in those I think we should be clear that this is not a failure of particular circumstances.” banking, but a failure of IT, and we should not confuse Mr Nolan then asked: the two. “What could they do?” 903 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 904

The hon. Gentleman replied: There are clearly tremendous advantages in Northern “I don’t know the answer to that”. Ireland: it is not in the euro; it is extremely good in If he does not know the answer, we do: it is to make sure terms of education; it is a great place to live; and it has that this sorry debacle, involving an IT problem with low costs, good IT, good connections and good transport the Royal Bank of Scotland and Ulster bank, which, let connections. Yes, we can do more, but let us just look us face it, affected the whole UK, is cleared up quickly very carefully at how well Northern Ireland has done to so that people can go about their normal business in date in attracting inward investment. Northern Ireland. Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): If we can move on from the battle of Clontarf, I must say that the Vernon Coaker: What we have heard there is a complacent Secretary of State is getting the reputation of being answer that does nothing to say to the people of Northern something of a one-club golfer when it comes to the Ireland what should be done. What the Secretary of Northern Ireland economy. When even yesterday’s Belfast State and the Minister should have done, and what they Telegraph referred to a putative corporation tax as “an should be doing now, is call an emergency summit—get economic disaster”, one has to ask: does the Secretary a summit together—of all the people who are responsible of State have another driver in his bag, and will he or for the situation, including the Treasury, Treasury officials his caddy whip it out and show it to us? and RBS senior management, and to get them to recognise the seriousness of the problem, get it sorted and get a Mr Swire: We have many clubs, and we shall use them grip. That is what the Minister should do. in the same way as they were used at the Open last week—with tremendous professionalism. The whole Mr Swire: I am not an IT expert, but I think that issue of corporation tax is a key thing that the joint appearing on the “Nolan”show twice and saying absolutely group has been— nothing does not show tremendous activity. On the shadow Secretary of State’s further point about banking Stephen Pound: It is a disaster. reform, he will be pleased that this Government have set up an independent commission on banking reform to Mr Swire: It is not a disaster; it is what we have been look at the future of banking and to clear up something looking at very carefully. that his Government failed to do over 13 years— There are other things that we need to do to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy, which both Governments Vernon Coaker: Complacent. over a successive number of years allowed to become far too dependent, for obvious reasons, and we will use Mr Swire: It is not complacent. any club available in our or anyone else’s bag to bring This is another example of this Government walking that about. around with a giant pooper-scooper to clear up the David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): On a recent mess left by the hon. Gentleman’s Government. visit to my constituency, the Minister will have seen some of the inward investment there, but does he agree Inward Investment that it is imperative that Northern Ireland retains its 100% status for regional aid? 4. Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): What recent discussions he has had with Ministers in the Northern Mr Swire: What is key, as I saw when I was with the Ireland Executive on attracting inward investment. hon. Gentleman, is planning, among other issues, which [114373] needs to be speeded up to facilitate inward investment and private sector investment, such as in the new supermarket in his constituency. Northern Ireland had The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo automatic assisted area status, but that is not going to Swire): I have regular meetings with the Northern Ireland continue, and people in Northern Ireland mainly agree Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Investment to discuss that other areas in the UK are now worse off than how best we can support the Northern Ireland Executive Northern Ireland. in attracting inward investment and promoting growth. We have jointly agreed to invite ambassadors from the Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP): I Gulf states, for example, to visit in the autumn in order inform the Minister that that is not agreed in Northern to explore how we can promote investment and increase Ireland; all political parties there unanimously want export opportunities. Northern Ireland to retain 100% regional aid status because of the special circumstances and the poverty, Julian Sturdy: As with other parts of the UK, including under-employment, under-achievement and poor prosperity. my home city of York, Northern Ireland’s lower operational Can the Minister assure us that he will persuade his costs make it an attractive location for investment, but colleagues at the Department for Business, Innovation does my right hon. Friend agree that we must do more and Skills to support that programme? to promote such areas if we are truly going to rebalance our economies? Mr Swire: I do not think that I said that regional aid was not important; I merely said that, as part of rebalancing Mr Swire: Indeed. My hon. Friend makes an ingenious the economy and encouraging inward investment, we connection between York and Northern Ireland—the need to make sure that the 2014 map covers the areas of only connection that attracted investment before was Northern Ireland that do need assistance. We no longer probably with the Vikings, who took an early interest in believe that it is justifiable, however, for Northern Ireland both areas. as a whole to have 100% automatic coverage. 905 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 906

Lady Hermon (North Down) (Ind): In evidence to the Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does Northern Ireland Committee, we were told by one the Secretary of State accept that economic development witness—I should point out that it was only one witness— is being hampered in Northern Ireland by the lack of that we had one airport too many and that, instead of willingness among the banks to assist businesses through having both Belfast International airport and Belfast these difficult economic times? Surely the Government City airport, we should have only one. If such a daft can do more to force the banks to assist our economy, idea were implemented, what impact does the Minister bearing in mind that taxpayers are the ones who helped think it would have on economic investment coming to them in their hour of crisis. Northern Ireland? Mr Paterson: The hon. Gentleman makes a very Mr Swire: A very negative one. The hon. Lady is good point. No one could have worked harder than my absolutely right. Northern Ireland justifies two airports. right hon. Friend the Chancellor and the First Secretary, They are both thriving concerns and we have had some who have been working with the banks ensuring that good news on air passenger duty. [Interruption.] The credit is freed up. Above all, let us not forget the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) is saying that I complete mess that we inherited—the biggest deficit in should not forget Eglinton airport either, and possibly western Europe. Through the robust measures that we others. We should certainly have Aldergrove and George have taken, we have kept the confidence of the international Best Belfast City airports, which should thrive. The markets and have the lowest interest rates since the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment Minister middle ages. and I are very positive and optimistic; we are trying to Londonderry (City of Culture) attract more airlines to fly in and out of Northern Ireland to grow the economy. The hon. Lady is spot on. 7. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con): What assessment he has made of the likely effect Economic Development on Londonderry of becoming the UK’s first city of culture; and if he will make a statement. [114376] 5. Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): What recent discussions he has had with Ministers in the Northern The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Ireland Executive on economic development. [114374] Swire) rose—[Interruption.] Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Ealing 11. Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): North (Stephen Pound) aspires to be a statesman; he What recent discussions he has had with Ministers in should not be yelling across the Chamber—yes, you! the Northern Ireland Executive on economic development. [114380] Mr Swire: They don’t like it up ’em, Mr Speaker. My officials have been working closely with Derry- The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Londonderry Culture Company to ensure that the year-long Paterson): My right hon. Friend the Minister of State programme will have social, economic, cultural and and I meet regularly with Northern Ireland Ministers in political benefits in the short term and as a legacy support of their efforts to promote economic development beyond 2013. and to help rebuild and rebalance the economy. Oliver Colvile: I thank my right hon. Friend for that Alok Sharma: What discussions has my right hon. answer. May I also ask him what lessons the city of Friend had with the Northern Ireland Executive to Plymouth can learn from the city of Londonderry-Derry encourage them to set up enterprise zones? in its bid to be the city of culture in 2014?

Mr Paterson: I have regular discussions with the First Mr Swire: Of course, as a west country Member of Minister, Deputy First Minister and Minister of Finance. Parliament I am hugely supportive of Plymouth. The Last year’s Budget, which became the Finance Act whole issue of whether the city should be called 2011, made that facility available. There are 24 enterprise Londonderry or Derry seems to be resolved, as we are zones in England, four in Scotland and seven in Wales. now going to call it Legenderry. Plymouth is already They have the capacity also to have enhanced capital legendary, not least on account of its excellent Member allowances. I am in favour of them as a benefit for of Parliament. My hon. Friend should get his councillors Northern Ireland, but this is a devolved issue and a to come over to Londonderry during its year as the city devolved decision. of culture, and I will introduce him to all the key players who are going to make it the most happening place in Europe. Eric Ollerenshaw: Does my right hon. Friend agree that economic development in Northern Ireland would Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): be much assisted by greater competition on the ferry In promoting Londonderry as the first UK city of routes in the Irish sea? A good start would be the culture, does the Minister agree that job retention and restoration of the ferry link between Fleetwood and job maintenance is a crucial factor? In that context, will Larne. he speak to the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), Mr Paterson: I wholeheartedly endorse what my hon. who I assume will make an announcement on this in a Friend is doing in trying to improve ferry links across written statement today, to ensure that the Driver and the Irish sea. I cannot think of a better place to expand Vehicle Licensing Agency offices are preserved in Northern to than Fleetwood. Ireland so that 260 jobs are not lost in my constituency? 907 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 908

Mr Swire: On the latter point, I understand that the from evidence that is being given in inquests in Minister is putting out a written statement today, and I Northern Ireland that opens up the whole modus do not want to prejudge what he might say in that. operandi of our security forces and security services. On the longer-term economic benefits to Londonderry, What do the Government intend to do to protect yes, that is a vital issue. Of course, there will be a lot of national security from this threat? prosperity around in the year that it is the city of Mr Paterson: The right hon. Gentleman raises a very culture, but that should be the building block to cement serious issue. A whole number of legacy inquests—up the renaissance that has gone on in the city, not least to 32—are coming down the track. I would like to with the regeneration of the Ebrington barracks site assure him formally that measures are in place under and the peace bridge. the existing arrangements that allow an inquest to go Security Situation ahead fairly, but information that might be dangerous if released to individuals can be held back. There are measures that can be worked out, but the final decision 8. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What recent rests with the coroner. Until now, these arrangements assessment he has made of the security situation in have worked well, and they will continue in their current Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement. guise. [114377] Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Given that many of those historic inquests will doubtless Paterson): The threat level in Northern Ireland remains require the disclosure of highly sensitive national security at “severe”. The Government remain fully committed intelligence, what discussions has the Secretary of State to countering violence in all its forms and supporting had with the Justice Secretary about his decision not to the overwhelming majority of people who want to live provide for a closed material procedure in relation to without fear and intimidation. inquests? Nick Smith: The Secretary of State is aware of the Mr Paterson: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for so-called punishment attacks by paramilitaries on young that question. I have regular meetings with the Justice people in Northern Ireland. These attacks are increasing, Secretary. I talked to him on the telephone this morning. particularly in Derry, by a group styling itself Republican [Interruption.] If the right hon. Gentleman would wait, Action Against Drugs. What every community needs is I treat each case individually and remain in close touch strong policing, not vigilantes. Will he proscribe this with the local Justice Minister on such issues. group? [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. May I remind the House that we PRIME MINISTER are discussing the security situation in Northern Ireland? This is a matter of the utmost seriousness, and I think that some display of attention would be appreciated by The Prime Minister was asked— the people of Northern Ireland. Engagements Mr Paterson: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. These attacks are barbaric and inhumane and Q1. [114968] Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): If have absolutely no place in a modern Northern Ireland. he will list his official engagements for Wednesday The only legitimate police force enforcing law and order 4July. is the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and it is for it to work with the community. On proscription, I keep all The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure these issues under review. that the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to the three British servicemen who were killed 13. [114383] Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) in Afghanistan in the appalling incident on Sunday, (Con): The Chief Constable of the PSNI, Matt Guardsman Apete Tuisovurua and Guardsman Craig Baggott, recently said that the Northern Ireland Roderick of 1st Battalion Welsh Guards and Warrant Executive must do more to tackle disadvantage in the Officer Class 2 Leonard Thomas of the Royal Corps of areas where dissident republicans hold sway. Will my Signals. We send our heartfelt condolences to the families right hon. Friend encourage the Executive to address of the servicemen who were killed in that tragic incident. this issue? They will never be forgotten by our nation. This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Mr Paterson: My hon. Friend makes an important and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I point. The second layer of our strategy in bearing down shall have further such meetings later today. on these groups is to get into those communities, but nearly all the projects are in the hands of local Ministers. Fiona O’Donnell: I am sure that the whole House will We strongly support the CSI—cohesion, sharing and want to associate itself with the Prime Minister’s remarks integration—strategy, which we want to be published as and to send our deepest condolences to the families of soon as possible, because we believe that the future is a the crew from RAF Lossiemouth who were lost earlier shared future, not a shared-out future. this week. Food prices rose by 4.6% between March last year 12. [114381] Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) and this year. I understand why, so will the Prime (DUP): Last night we had a briefing from senior retired Minister spare me the lecture and tell the House what police officers about the threat to national security he is doing about food inflation? 909 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 910

The Prime Minister: First, I join the hon. Lady in crimes on our streets. As well as people being held what she said about the Tornado aircraft accident at accountable, the public want rapid action to make sure RAF Lossiemouth. She is right that our thoughts should that this cannot happen again. be with the friends, families and colleagues of those In my view, the most important thing about an inquiry involved. The circumstances remain uncertain, but it is that it is swift and decisive, is set up as fast as possible, was clearly a serious incident. The investigation is ongoing gets going as fast as possible, reports as fast as possible and more details will be released by the RAF in due and is transparent and open at every stage. That is why I course. It is a reminder of the risks that our service favour a public parliamentary inquiry rather than a personnel take, not only when they are on active service, judge-led inquiry. I want us to legislate on this, starting but when they are undergoing vital training for that next year. service. Edward Miliband: I do understand the Prime Minister’s On food inflation, I would first make the point that concerns about speed, but there are concerns also that inflation is now falling in our country, which is extremely the inquiry that has been talked about is far too narrow, good news. It is vital that the food prices in our shops focused solely on the scandal of LIBOR when we know are not too hard on people’s budgets, but the way to that the problems go much wider, to the culture and keep inflation down is to have a responsible monetary practices in the City. I believe, however, that there is a policy, which is what we have in our country. way forward that we could agree upon—that we have a two-part, judge-led inquiry that is instructed to report Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): Does my right by Christmas on the scandal surrounding LIBOR, which hon. Friend agree that although the serious banking is his timetable. The second part of the inquiry should difficulties must be dealt with, it is vital that we retain look, over 12 months, at the much wider area of the the central importance of the City of London, and that culture and practices of the industry. That would satisfy any reforms must be proportionate and not damage his requirement of speed but also the necessary requirement such a brilliant asset for our country? to look at the wider culture and practices in the City. Will he agree to my proposal? The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend makes an important point. We have to get to the bottom of what The Prime Minister: I always listen carefully to proposals has happened and we have to do so quickly. In doing from all parts of the House. Let me make three points that, we should bear in mind the remarks of Richard in response. First, on the structure and future of banking, Lambert, who ran the CBI very successfully for many we set up the Vickers inquiry. It reported, and we are years, who carried out an investigation for the Labour going to implement that inquiry, which will for the first party and whom I respect a great deal: time separate investment banking from retail banking. “the Libor scandal means that the required changes have to be That is a major step forward. Secondly, the parliamentary tougher…that is the argument for a short, sharp inquiry. Going inquiry that we are proposing is wider than the right back to square one would, to put it mildly, be a serious mistake. hon. Gentleman says. It will look at the culture of The economy cannot recover in the absence of a stable banking banking, as my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester system: nothing can be more urgent than that.” (Mr Tyrie) confirmed this morning. That is not the only consideration. We must get to the My third point—all these points need to be truth, but we should listen to such expert opinions as considered—is that the Serious Fraud Office is still well. considering whether to launch a criminal investigation. While that is happening, there are dangers in opting for Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the a judge-led inquiry, which might not be able to get Prime Minister in paying tribute to Guardsman Apete under way. If we want to do this as fast as possible and Tuisovurua, Guardsman Craig Roderick of 1st Battalion get action as fast as possible, I think the way we have Welsh Guards and Warrant Officer Class 2 Leonard suggested is right. There was a vote last night in which Thomas of the Royal Corps of Signals, who died in the the House of Lords voted against a public inquiry, and most tragic of circumstances. Our hearts go out to their we have made time available on Thursday—this has not families and friends. I also join the Prime Minister in his happened before—for an Opposition motion and a remarks about the incident at RAF Lossiemouth. Government motion to be debated and voted on. Frankly, what matters more than the process is the substance and The banking scandals of the last week have revealed getting on with it. I hope we can accept the results on traders cheating and the mis-selling of insurance products Thursday. to small businesses, and come on top of other scandals in the banking system and the continuing multi-million- Edward Miliband: We were in exactly the same position pound bonus merry-go-round. How can the Prime Minister a year ago, when the Prime Minister initially rejected convince people that a parliamentary inquiry is a better the idea of a judge-led inquiry into the press scandal way of restoring people’s confidence than a full, and then rightly changed his mind. In justifying that independent, forensic and open judge-led inquiry? decision, he said: “I don’t believe there is any better process than an inquiry led by a The Prime Minister: On the substance of the issue, judge”. there is no disagreement between us. This banking He said that would happen with scandal is appalling. It is outrageous, frankly, that home “the whole thing…pursued…by a team of barristers who are owners may have paid higher mortgage rates and small expert at finding out the facts”.—[Official Report, 30 April 2012; businesses may have paid higher interest rates because Vol. 543, c. 1251.] of spivvy and probably illegal activity in the City. Why is it right to have that judge-led approach to the People want to know that crime in our banks and scandal in the press but wrong for the scandal in the financial services will be pursued and punished like banks? 911 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 912

The Prime Minister: I think there is a very profound resolution, he must accept the outcome of a vote in the difference between the circumstances of the Leveson House of Commons. I am prepared to do that. Why is inquiry and the circumstances of this inquiry, because he not? of course the Leveson inquiry followed a whole series of unsuccessful and failed inquiries. On this occasion we Edward Miliband: Mr Speaker—[Interruption.] have had a very successful inquiry by the Department of Justice in America and the Financial Services Authority, Mr Speaker: Order. Government Back Benchers who which has uncovered the wrongdoing. Now what is have been here for some years ought to have grasped by required is swift inquiry, swift action and swift legislation. now that it is not the responsibility of the Leader of the That is what you will get from this Government. Opposition to answer, so they should pipe down and try to be good boys, if they can. Edward Miliband: I do not think the Prime Minister Edward Miliband: If the Prime Minister wants a has understood the depths of public concern and the history lesson, let me repeat what he told the City of depths of the lack of confidence. He says both that the London on 28 March 2008: inquiry that he proposes can be completed within essentially “As a free-marketeer by conviction, it will not surprise you to four months and that it can go as wide as it likes. That is hear me say that” simply not realistic. I have listened to his concerns and the problem “of the past decade”is “too much regulation”. proposed a way forward. I ask him again for a two-part Does that not say it all about the double standards of inquiry, with a judge, to complete the part on LIBOR this Prime Minister? Whenever these scandals happen, on the Chancellor’s timetable—by Christmas—and then he is slow to act and he stands up for the wrong people. to look at the wider issues about the culture and practices The question people are asking is, “Who will act in the of the City, of which there are many. national interest, rather than the party interest?” His is a party bankrolled by the banks. If he fails to order a The Prime Minister: I understand the public concern judge-led inquiry, people will come to one conclusion: about this issue, which is why I want us to get on with it. he simply cannot act in the national interest. Frankly, it is this Government who are legislating to split the banks, as Vickers suggested; who are scrapping The Prime Minister: Everybody can see what is happening the tripartite agreement that failed so badly under the here. [Interruption.] last Government; who have introduced the bank levy so Mr Speaker: Order. Members must calm down. I said that the banks pay their taxes properly; and who have it to Government Back Benchers and I am now saying it introduced the most transparent regime for pay and to Opposition Back Benchers: let the answer be heard. bonuses in any financial centre anywhere in the world. As evidence that the House of Commons is getting on The Prime Minister: The party opposite want to talk with it, we are going to see Bob Diamond questioned about absolutely everything apart from their record of upstairs by the Treasury Select Committee this afternoon. 13 years in government. I have to say that we may have I say to the right hon. Gentleman that we are having a found the Higgs boson particle, but Labour has not vote in the House of Commons tomorrow—a vote on found a sense of shame. his motion and a vote on the Government motion. Clearly, if the Opposition motion wins, there will be a Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): Today is a hugely full independent public inquiry. I urge him to say now significant day for British scientists with the announcement that if the Government motion is carried, he will co-operate of the Higgs boson discovery. Some 6,000 scientists with a full parliamentary inquiry. worked on it worldwide—700 from the UK—and there was a major contribution from the north-west. A constituent Edward Miliband: I do not think the Prime Minister of mine, Professor Phil Allport, head of particle physics gets it about the depth of public concern. I hope that he at Liverpool university, led the ATLAS experiment. will reconsider his position. He says that the Government Will the Prime Minister confirm this Government’s are implementing the Vickers inquiry. On a very important commitment to science and to institutes in the north-west? issue that has come out in the past two weeks—high street banks selling dodgy products to small businesses—the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Vickers commission said that it should never be allowed right to raise this issue, the immense British contribution to happen again, yet after lobbying by the banks the there has been to this extraordinary breakthrough—not Government rejected this basic recommendation of Vickers. least that of Higgs himself—and the extraordinary work In the light of the recent scandal, with small businesses that, as she says, is done in the north-west of England. damaged, will he now U-turn and implement the Vickers It is a very big step forward and we should congratulate recommendations in full? everyone involved. This Government’s commitment to the science budget is without any doubt, not least because although we have had to make difficult cuts, we The Prime Minister: First, I will not take a lecture on have preserved the science budget. getting it from a party that was in office for 13 years when all these things took place. On his specific question Q2. [114969] Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The about the Vickers inquiry, let me repeat that it was set last 15 days have witnessed absolute chaos in the Ulster up by this Government and will be implemented by this bank. Direct debits continue to be removed and wages Government—something that had not happened before. have not been put into accounts. Ulster bank is owned Under the inquiry, complex derivatives will be included by RBS. We, the people, have an 82% share in RBS, so in the investment bank ring fence, not in the retail the Government have a major say in what happens in banks, which we want to make safer. But let me just say the Ulster bank in Northern Ireland. Will the Prime this to the right hon. Gentleman: if he wants a quick Minister give an assurance to the 100,000 Ulster bank 913 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 914 customers that the Prime Minister and the Government announcement shortly. The good news is that across the will have a direct input in addressing this issue, and that health service in-patient and out-patient waiting times normal banking will resume immediately? are down, and we have the best ever performance for patients waiting for longer than 18 weeks to be treated. The Prime Minister: I can quite understand why the Added to that, the number of mixed-sex wards is down hon. Gentleman raises this on behalf of his constituents. and rates of infection are down; the health service is What happened is not acceptable. Clearly, it is an operational doing well. matter for the bank, but the Financial Services Authority has been monitoring this very closely. My right hon. Q5. [114972] Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland The Prime Minister will be aware that the Crown Office spoke yesterday to the chairman of RBS. The lessons in Scotland has confirmed that it has been carrying out must be learned, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that an investigation, led by the serious crime division, into RBS has said that it will reimburse any customer for allegations that several banks, including state-owned penalty charges or overdraft fees—anything that is incurred RBS, have provided false information to financial because of these difficulties. markets. Does the Prime Minister back that investigation? Given the scale of the crisis and the scale Q3. [114970] Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) of public anger, will he back a full, independent, (Con): To be blunt, my constituents and businesses are judge-led inquiry and, crucially, will he give us a free losing faith in their banks. What they need from the vote in the House tomorrow? Prime Minister is a reassurance that there will be no more political skeletons in the cupboard left by the The Prime Minister: There are two important things Labour party. here. First, we should allow all the investigative authorities to carry out their investigations and take them wherever The Prime Minister: What matters for my hon. Friend’s the evidence leads them. That is true for the Serious constituents and, frankly, for everyone in this House is Fraud Office, and it is true for the Financial Services that we get to the bottom of what happened as quickly Authority—we need to ensure that they have the resources as possible. We have had a vote in the House of Lords; necessary to do that. Then we have to consider the we will have a vote in the House of Commons; and then nature of the inquiry. The problem with the suggestion we need to get on with it. We are sent to this House to the hon. Gentleman makes is that as these investigations hold these inquiries, to find these facts, to pass these are ongoing, it is actually easier to hold a rapid investigation laws. Let us get on with it. within Parliament than to set up an investigation outside Parliament. Q4.[114971]MrDavidHanson(Delyn)(Lab):Yesterday, 117 manufacturing jobs were lost in my constituency Q6. [114973] James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): on a rising trend of unemployment in north Wales. Will What message would the Prime Minister send to the the Prime Minister confirm to the House that last emergency services, local authorities and communities week’s GDP figures showed that his Government’s across the north-east, which swung into action so performance was worse than he expected and requires effectively when the region was hit by flooding last change, and that the cause is his Government’s policies? week?

The Prime Minister: I very much regret any loss of The Prime Minister: The first thing I would say is jobs, including in the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency, huge congratulations and thank you to the emergency particularly as, since the election, we have seen 800,000 services. I saw for myself—not in my hon. Friend’s extra jobs in the private sector. I am very concerned constituency, but when I was in West Yorkshire—the about the economic performance in Wales, which over incredible work that was done. The other thing to note the last decade or more has actually fallen further is that whenever these things happen, there is an incredible behind the rest of the United Kingdom. We need to coming together of community and social action to work very hard with the Welsh Assembly Government help people who have been flooded out of their homes. I to try to make sure that we are making Wales more am sure that everyone, in all parts of the House, will competitive. want to thank people for what they have done on others’ behalf. Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): A key part of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 is that clinical change Q7. [114974] Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): On the must be led by clinicians and patients. In my own question of a European referendum, is it the policy of hospital, the Eastbourne district general hospital, the the Prime Minister to be indecisive, or is he not sure? majority of consultants have said that they have no confidence in the trust’s proposed clinical change, and The Prime Minister: I wonder how long in front of the vast majority of the public in Eastbourne share that the bathroom mirror that one took. The point is this. lack of confidence. Will the Prime Minister confirm There are two things that would not be right: the first that the local trust has to listen to the Act, the clinicians would be to hold an in/out referendum now—I do not and local people in Eastbourne? think that is the right approach—and the second would be to rule it out for all time. I have no idea what the hon. The Prime Minister: I can absolutely confirm that. Gentleman’s party’s policy is. Clearly, changes should not go ahead unless there is proper listening to local clinicians and local people. Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): Does my right That is how our health service should operate. My right hon. Friend agree that central to any reforms of banking hon. Friend the Health Secretary will be making an must be, from the point of view of ordinary punters, 915 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 916 two things: first, the proposals which we are already they can, including through the Merlin agreement, to working up to ensure that people can move their accounts get money out of the banks and into hard-pressed quickly, cheaply and easily; and secondly, an absolute businesses. guarantee that Governments will never again bail out banks? Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): If, as a result of this shameful banking crisis, bank executives The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes two very are dismissed or forced to resign, and the boards of important points. On the first point, about people being their banks fail to act appropriately, will the Government able to move their bank accounts, that will be in place do their best to ensure that the delinquents are not able later this year. On the issue of bailing out banks, we to walk away with their bonuses and severance payments? need to put in place mechanisms so that banks can fail without calling on taxpayers to support them. That The Prime Minister: The Father of the House makes resolution regime, which for 13 years was left untouched an extremely good point. It would be completely wrong by Labour, has been dealt with by this Government. if people who were leaving in those circumstances were given some vast pay-off. It would be completely inexplicable Q8. [114975] Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) to the British public, and it would not be right. I very (Lab): The euro now has a solid record of destroying much hope that it does not happen. In terms of what jobs and democracy throughout Europe. The Prime the Government can do, we are going to legislate so that Minister is failing to repatriate any powers or resources all pay deals are put to shareholders with a binding to this country. When is he going to stop dithering and vote, and those deals should include any severance allow the electorate in this country to have a payments. The party opposite had 13 years to do that; referendum on the European Union to decide whether we are going to do it in two. to stay in or get out of that mess? Q10. [114977] Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and The Prime Minister: We have repatriated one power, Royton) (Lab): Given that the richest 1,000 persons in which is that we have got out of the bail-out that the last Britain made gains of £155 billion in the past three Government put us into, and that is saving us billions of years of austerity, why will the Government not charge pounds. If the hon. Gentleman takes that view, he those gains at the capital gains tax rate, which would should be sitting on this side of the House rather than bring in about £40 billion? That would be enough, that side. without any increase in public borrowing, to generate 1 million or more jobs. It would be far better to cut the deficit in that way—through growth, rather than David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): I through the Chancellor’s failed slump. want to draw my right hon. Friend’s attention away from banking for one moment—[Interruption]—and The Prime Minister: I hate to remind the right hon. the Opposition’s attention—to more important matters: Gentleman, but he was a Minister in the Government children’s lives in my constituency. Five children in my whose capital gains tax rules meant that people in the constituency have been involved in an accident on a City were paying less in tax than their cleaners were crossing outside St Peter’s school in Heysham. I know paying. We have lifted the rate of capital gains tax to this is a county council matter, but I would like the 28% so that we have a fairer system. Prime Minister to assist me in trying to get a crossing outside St Peter’s school. Q11. [114978] Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): The pupils I met recently at Corsham primary school The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right told me, in their own creative ways, that they liked to to raise a constituency case such as this, where so many learn together. They know, however, that many children people have lost their lives and where there is such a in other countries never get that chance. How will the threat to safety. I will certainly look at what he says. As Prime Minister, as chair of the United Nations he says, it is a matter for the county council, but if I can high-level panel on the millennium development goals, help him to put his case, I will be pleased to do so. restart efforts to ensure that all girls and boys around the world go to school? Q9. [114976] Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Leicester is bearing the brunt of the Prime Minister’s The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend raises an important double-dip recession, with the sad news today that yet point. Many of us will have seen the “Send my Friend another business is going under, resulting in the loss of to School” campaign in our own constituencies; it is a local jobs. In that context, was he as disappointed as I brilliant way of teaching young people the importance was at the figures released last month showing that of showing responsibility for those on the other side of lending to small businesses was down by £1.7 billion? Is the world who do not have the advantages that they do. it not clear that the Chancellor’s credit easing policies Our aid is currently supporting 5.3 million children in are not working? primary education, and we hope to up that to 9 million people by 2014, so the Government are playing their The Prime Minister: The credit easing policy—the part, but we want all of civil society—schools, parents national loan guarantee scheme—is going to make available and teachers—to join in that magnificent effort. £20 billion of extra loans; some of that money is already available. The Merlin scheme saw lending to Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): In addition small businesses go up in 2011. It is difficult when the to what the Prime Minister said earlier about the Ulster banks are nervous about the economic situation, but bank crisis in Northern Ireland, in which households, the Treasury and the Bank of England are doing all that individuals and businesses are being denied even basic 917 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 918 banking facilities, will he and the Chancellor talk to Opposition party that stands in the way of an inquiry Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to ensure that because they do not want their dirty washing done in some flexibility will be shown towards the liabilities of public. those households, individuals and businesses so that they can be helped through the cash-flow problems that Q14. [114981] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): The are the result of problems that they did not create? Olympics provide a great opportunity to bring our nation together. Does the Prime Minister therefore The Prime Minister: I will certainly look at what the share my dismay at the plans of some union leaders to right hon. Gentleman says. As I said, RBS has said that disrupt this summer’s events? it will ensure that people do not lose out through banking charges, but I will discuss his point about The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important HMRC with the Chancellor. point. The Unite union is encouraging strikes on our buses in London. The Leader of the Opposition likes to talk about standing up to vested interests, but what have Q12. [114979] Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I we heard from him on the trade union movement? welcome the Government’s commitment to women and Absolutely nothing, and the whole country will be girls at the heart of their development policy. As this listening to that. We want a strike-free Olympics, and weekend’s Tokyo conference on the future of Labour should talk to its paymasters about it. Afghanistan approaches, will the Prime Minister consider making aid to Afghanistan conditional on the Q15. [114982] Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): protection of the hard-won rights of women and girls, We all witnessed last week’s storms across the country. which, as he knows, are under attack? My own village of Lanchester hit the headlines because of the floods. We are all grateful to the police, the fire The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very brigade, Durham county council and the Weardale important point. Whereas in 2001 fewer than 1 million mountain rescue service, but will the Prime Minister children—and, of course, no girls—were attending school confirm that the Government will be there with real in Afghanistan, today 6 million children regularly attend money to support these people and these agencies, and school and 2 million of them are girls. I will reflect not offer just nice warm words? carefully on what she says about our aid programme and discuss it with the Secretary of State. It is important The Prime Minister: Of course we will be there to do that we attach conditions and have real transparency that. We are investing around £2 billion in future flood and proper results from our aid. I think that is the only defences. Of course, all the emergency services have way we can take people with us as we continue to done an excellent job, and they remain ready to carry expand our aid budget at a time of economic difficulty out further work if necessary. I also think the Government at home. My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this should lend a very sympathetic ear to the local councils issue because if we want a stable and prosperous as well and local organisations that are setting up hardship as a safe Afghanistan, we need an Afghanistan where funds to help families, perhaps those that do not have the role of women is properly respected. insurance or cannot afford the excess when it comes to dealing with their problems. I have said to the Department Q13. [114980] Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, for Communities and Local Government that we should Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab): May I give the be generous in helping people to get their lives back Prime Minister the opportunity to answer the question together again. put to him a few moments ago by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar)? If the George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): Will the Prime Prime Minister believes in the sovereignty of Minister join me in welcoming the news that over Parliament, will he confirm that there will be a free vote £1 billion has been raised in the last six months for across the House tomorrow? start-ups in our life science sector—more than in the last three years combined? Does he agree that this is a massive statement of confidence in our innovation economy The Prime Minister: There was a vote last night in the and in our policies to make Britain a place to do House of Lords when Labour peers were heavily whipped business? to vote for the Labour position. I have a clear view, the Government have a clear view and the whole of the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has a close coalition Government have a clear view about the right interest in life sciences and pharmaceutical industries, way ahead. There will be a motion for the Labour party, and knows a lot about what he speaks. One of the which they can vote for, and a motion for us, which we successes with part of the EU patent court coming to can vote for. Let me put this one more time to the London is that the patents that cover life sciences, Leader of the Opposition: I will be bound by a vote for pharmaceuticals and similar industries will be in London a full public inquiry; will he be bound if the House as well. That means many, many jobs and tens of votes for a parliamentary inquiry? If he cannot answer millions of pounds of investment in this industry and in that question, people will take a very dim view of an our capital city. 919 4 JULY 2012 NHS Annual Report and Care 920 Objectives NHS Annual Report and Care Objectives All that, and a million more people have access to NHS dentists; every ambulance trust is meeting its call response times; 96% of patients are waiting less than 12.34 pm four hours in accident and emergency departments; The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): quality, innovation, prevention and productivity—QIPP— With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a savings across the NHS were £5.8 billion in the first year statement about my first annual report to Parliament of the efficiency challenge; and NHS commissioning on the health service, published today alongside the bodies delivered a £1.6 billion surplus, carried forward report on the NHS constitution and the draft mandate into the current financial year. All that, and a new to the NHS Commissioning Board. system is taking shape. The NHS Commissioning Board has been established; health and wellbeing boards are This year the NHS has made major progress in the preparing to shape and integrate local services; 212 clinical transition to a new system: a system based on clinical commissioning groups, which are already managing leadership, patient empowerment and a resolute focus more than £30 billion in delegated budgets, are preparing on improving outcomes for patients. In a year of change, to lead local services from April next year; and we are as the annual report shows, NHS staff have performed starting to measure outcomes comprehensively for the admirably. Waiting times remain low and stable, below first time. Far from buckling under pressure, NHS the level at the election, and the number of people staff—with the right leadership and the right framework— waiting over a year is the lowest ever. Today only 4,317 are performing brilliantly. patients are waiting more than a year for treatment, dramatically fewer than in May 2010. Nationally, all As well as the NHS annual report, I am today publishing NHS waiting time standards for diagnostic tests and a report on the NHS constitution. The Health and cancer treatment have been met. The £600 million cancer Social Care Act 2012 strengthens the legal foundation drugs fund has helped more than 12,500 patients to for the constitution, and includes a duty for commissioners gain access to drugs that were previously denied to and providers to promote and use it. This report—the them. first by a Secretary of State—will help commissioners We have extended screening programmes, potentially and providers to assess how well the constitution has saving an extra 1,100 lives of sufferers from breast and reinforced the principles and values of the NHS; the bowel cancer every year by 2015. More than 90% of degree to which it has supported high-quality patient adult patients admitted to hospital—about a quarter of care; and whether patients, the public and staff are a million every week—are now assessed for venous aware of their rights. thromboembolism, or blood clots, in what is a world-leading I am grateful to the NHS Future Forum and its chair, programme of its kind. In 2011-12, 528,000 people Professor Steve Field, for their advice on the effect of began treatment under the expanded improving access the NHS constitution. I have asked them whether there to psychological therapies programme—up from just is further scope to strengthen the principles of the 182,000 in 2009-10—and almost half have said that constitution before a full public consultation in the they have recovered. Following the success of the telehealth autumn. Any amendments would be reflected in a revised and telecare whole system demonstrator programme, constitution, published by April 2013. which included a 45% fall in mortality, we are on course to transform the lives of 3 million people with long-term Rooted in the values of the constitution, we will drive conditions over the next five years. further improvement across the NHS through a set of The NHS is also improving people’s experience of objectives called the mandate to the NHS Commissioning care. Patients are reporting better outcomes for hip and Board. I am publishing the draft mandate today. The knee replacements and hernia repairs. In the latest GP mandate will redefine the relationship between Government patient survey, 88% of patients rated their GP practices and the NHS, with Ministers stepping back from day-to-day as good or very good, and the result of the out-patient interference in the service. Through the mandate, we survey shows clear improvements in the cleanliness of will set the board’s annual financial allocation and wards and the number of patients reporting that they clearly set out what the Government expect it to achieve were treated with respect and dignity.MORI’S independent with that allocation, based on the measures set out in “Public Perceptions of the NHS” survey shows that the NHS outcomes framework. Those include both satisfaction with the NHS remains high, at 70%. Mixed-sex measures of quality, such as whether people recover accommodation breaches are down by 96%, MRSA quickly from treatment, and the experience of those infections are down by 25%, and clostridium difficile cared for, including whether they are treated as well as infections are down by 17% in the year. they would expect, and whether they would be happy for family and friends to be cared for similarly. The Real progress is also being made in public health. mandate will promote front-line autonomy, giving clinical More than 570,000 families have signed up to Change4Life, commissioners the freedom and flexibility to respond to and our support for the School Games and Change4Life local needs—freedoms balanced by accountability. sports clubs in schools is helping to secure the Olympic legacy. The responsibility deal has seen the elimination Each year, the board will state how it intends to of artificial trans fats, falling levels of salt in our diets, deliver the objectives and requirements of the mandate, and better alcohol labelling. By the end of the year, and it will report on its performance at the end of that more than 70% of high street fast food and takeaway year. The Secretary of State will then present to Parliament chains will show the number of calories on their menus. an assessment of the board’s performance. If there are To drive forward research in key areas such as dementia, particular concerns, Ministers will, for example, ask the I have announced a record £800 million for 11 National board to report publicly on what action it has taken, or Institute for Health Research centres and 20 biomedical ask the chair to write a letter setting out a plan for research units. improvement. 921 NHS Annual Report and Care 4 JULY 2012 NHS Annual Report and Care 922 Objectives Objectives [Mr Andrew Lansley] access to operations. Perhaps that explains why the year that he hails as a great success was the same year that Today’s publication of the draft mandate marks the saw the biggest ever fall in public satisfaction with the beginning of a 12-week consultation. I look forward to national health service according to the British social working with patients, clinicians, staff and other attitudes survey. stakeholders to finalise the mandate in the autumn. Let me challenge the Secretary of State on this growing These documents show how a new, exciting chapter is gap between Ministers’ statements and people’s real opening up for the NHS. Starting with strong performance experience of the NHS. He has said that there will be no and robust finances, we are driving towards integrated rationing by cost, but I have news for him: it is happening services and community-based care. This heralds a new on his watch, right across the system, with a whole host era for the NHS, based on openness and transparency of restrictions on important treatments and a postcode and focused on what matters most to patients: health lottery running riot. Where is the instruction in the outcomes, care quality, safety and positive experience of draft mandate to stop it and deliver on the promise that care. It heralds an era in which every part of the he and the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for NHS—the Secretary of State, the NHS Commissioning Chelmsford (Mr Burns), made to patients? It is not Board, clinical commissioning groups and health-care there. providers—is publicly held to account for what is achieved. For the first time, Parliament, patients and the public Let me turn to bureaucracy and targets. First, the will know exactly how the NHS is performing locally, Government said that they would scrap the four-hour A nationally and by way of international comparison. and E and 18-week targets; then they brought them This will be a new era in which patients are more in back. Now they have gone further and adopted Labour’s control, where clinicians lead services, and where outcomes guarantees, but they have gone even further today and are among the best in the world. have added a whole new complex web of outcomes and I commend this statement to the House. performance indicators for the NHS. The NHS needs simplicity and clarity, but what it has received today from this Secretary of State is a dense document with 12.42 pm 60 outcome indicators grouped within five domains. I hope it is clear to him, because it will not be clear to Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): The Secretary of State anyone else. Will he treat the House again to his explanation today presents his first annual report—an annual report of the difference between an outcome indicator and a on a lost year in the NHS. Just when the NHS needed target? The fact is there is not one and he is loading a stability to focus all its energy on the money, what did whole new set of targets and burdens on to a NHS that he do? He pulled the rug from underneath it, with a is already struggling to cope with the challenges it is reorganisation no one wanted and that this Prime Minister facing. promised would never happen. In fact, we have had not one, but two lost years in the It will not have escaped people’s notice that today the NHS, as this Secretary of State has obsessed on structures Secretary of State was silent on the biggest issue of all: and inflicted an ideological experiment on the NHS the unfolding crisis in adult social care. Out there in the that made sense to him but, sadly, to no one else. It was real world, councils are not coping, services are collapsing his decision to allow the dismantling of existing structures and that is placing intolerable pressure on hospitals. He before new ones were in place, which has led to a loss of promised a White Paper soon on service change, but financial grip at local level in the NHS. He mentioned nothing on funding. Has he given up on the Dilnot QIPP savings. The truth is that two-thirds of NHS proposals and the challenge of finding a fairer and acute trusts—65%—are reported to have fallen behind more sustainable funding system? on their efficiency targets. So we see temporary ward Before we let the Secretary of State go today, the and accident and emergency closures, a quarter of House needs to ask to whom this mandate is being walk-in centres closing across England, panic plans to given. We are witnessing the democratic responsibility close services sprouting up wherever we look, and crude, and accountability to this House for the organisation random rationing across the NHS, with 125 separate that matters more to our constituents than any other treatments—including cataracts, hip replacements and being outsourced and handed over to an unelected and knees—being restricted or stopped altogether by one unaccountable board. primary care trust or another. This is an NHS drifting dangerously towards trouble, or, in the words of the Another major announcement is taking place today chief executive of the NHS Confederation, on the review of the arrangements for children’s heart “a supertanker heading for an iceberg”. surgery. It will not have escaped people’s notice, however, that the Secretary of State did not mention that review Let us remember that even before the added complexity in his statement. He said that Ministers are stepping of today’s mandate, the Secretary of State has already back, and I think people in this House know what that saddled his new board with an Act of Parliament that means—it is now nothing to do with him. All these even the chair of that board, whom he appointed, calls changes will take place and he will not be responsible. “unintelligible”. Listening to the Secretary of State today, one could not but conclude that he cannot be What assurances can the Secretary of State give to looking at the same NHS as the head of the NHS right hon. and hon. Members that his new board will Confederation. The statistics he just reeled off do not listen to their concerns? Who are the people on that include the people who give up waiting in A and E, who board? With trademark catastrophic timing, we learn have their operation cancelled, who cannot get a GP that he has given a leading role in the running of the appointment for days or who cannot get into hospital in NHS to—yes—the vice-chair of Barclays, none other the first place because his Government are restricting than Mr Diamond’s right-hand man and someone who 923 NHS Annual Report and Care 4 JULY 2012 NHS Annual Report and Care 924 Objectives Objectives has given £106,000 in donations to the Conservative facts before he stands up at the Dispatch Box and party. If that does not sum up this Government, I do begins to make accusations. We published those facts not know what does. for the first time. We know the real mandate that the Secretary of State I will not reiterate the A and E target, because I has given his new board—and that is a mandate for mentioned it in the statement, but 96% of patients are privatisation. He promised it would not happen, but it is seen within four hours in A and E. The right hon. happening with community services being outsourced. Gentleman should withdraw all those absurd propositions No wonder there is a crisis of leadership, with one third that the NHS is not delivering. He should get up when of directors of public health not planning to transfer to next he can and express appreciation to the NHS for local authorities. Is it not the simple truth that the what it is achieving. Patients do so: last year, 92% of Secretary of State inherited a successful, self-confident in-patients and 95% of out-patients thought that they NHS and, in just two years, has reduced it to a service had good or excellent care from the NHS, which is as that is demoralised, destabilised and fearful of the high as in any previous year. That is what patients feel. future? The man who promised to listen to doctors has Staff should be proud of what they achieve in the NHS, completely ignored them, and now they are calling for and the Labour party should be ashamed of itself. his resignation. Despite all his claims today, the supertanker is still heading towards an iceberg. He gave us a new David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): My right hon. mandate when what we really needed was a change of Friend’s statement, which is very positive, will be widely direction and a change of personnel. welcomed, particularly what he said about low waiting times. He said that patients in future will be more in control. Is he referring to the personal health budgets in Mr Lansley: At no point did the shadow Secretary of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, and does he State express any appreciation for what the staff of the expect a greater range of treatments to be available on NHS have achieved in the past year. A party political the health service in future? rant populated with most of his misconceptions and poorly based arguments does not get him anywhere. Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. There The right hon. Gentleman went around the country are many ways in which we can improve the control that trying to drum up something he could throw at us about patients can exercise, including greater opportunities things that he believed were going wrong in the NHS. for patients to exercise choice. In my announcement Do you know what he ended up with, Mr Speaker? He today, that includes the opportunity for patients to ended up by saying the NHS was rationing care. What choose alternative providers of NHS care if, for example, was the basis for that? That parts of the NHS have the standard of 18 weeks that the constitution sets is restrictions on weight-loss surgery, because people have not met. I might say that, at the last election, 209,000 to be obese before they have access to it. That is meaningless. patients were waiting for treatment beyond 18 weeks. I wrote to the shadow Secretary of State this morning, That number has been brought down to 160,000. and went through his so-called health check. There is My hon. Friend makes an important point about the no such ban on surgery as he claims. Time and again, he exercise of control on the part of patients, who have an says, “Oh, they are rationing.” They are not, because opportunity to access clinically appropriate care through last year, the co-operation and competition panel produced the NHS. We will make sure that that is available and, as a report that showed where there had been blanket bans he knows, in relation to homeopathic treatments, for on NHS services under a Labour Government. We example, we have maintained clinicians’ ability across introduced measures to ensure that that would not the service to make such treatments available through happen in future across the service. Not only is he not the NHS when they think that it is appropriate to do so. giving the NHS credit for the achievements that I listed in detail in my statement but he is now pretending that Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): I have not the NHS is somehow in chaos or financial trouble. It is been able to read the annual report in the last few complete nonsense. Across the NHS, only three primary minutes, but may I ask the Secretary of State for Health care trusts out of 154 were in deficit at the end of the whether it gives any information on the benefits of year. The cumulative surplus across all the PCTs and high-street pharmacy companies taking over the running strategic health authorities is £1.6 billion carried forward of hospital pharmacies? into this financial year. That means that the NHS begins 2012-13 in a stronger Mr Lansley: No, the annual report makes no reference financial place than anyone had any right to expect, to that. It refers—I hope, for the first time—in detail to because it is delivering better services more effectively, the performance of the NHS over the past year. If the with GP referrals reduced, and reduced growth in the right hon. Gentleman wishes to raise any issues about number of patients attending emergency departments. that, I shall be glad to respond to him separately. The right hon. Gentleman asked, “What about patients who leave A and E without being seen?” Under the Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I welcome Labour Government, no one ever measured whether the statement from the Secretary of State and the patients left A and E without being seen. For the first annual report. Is he aware that the National Audit time, we are measuring that, and we publish the results Office published a report last week on variations in the in the A and E quality indicators. There was a variation NHS across the United Kingdom? It specifically reported between about 0.5% and 11% of patients leaving without that life expectancy in Wales was lower than in other being seen when we first published that, but since then parts of the UK; there were fewer GPs per patient; the variation has reduced. The average number has longer hospital stays in Wales; and longer hospital gone down, and it is now at 3%, so he ought to know his waiting lists. Will he reassure me, in the light of his 925 NHS Annual Report and Care 4 JULY 2012 NHS Annual Report and Care 926 Objectives Objectives [Alun Cairns] Mr Lansley: I think that the hon. Lady knows that the figure is in the order of £1.2 billion to £1.3 billion. statement and of the NAO report, that he will not take She also knows that, during this Parliament, we will any lessons from the Labour party, because it is responsible deliver, as a result of the changes, reductions in bureaucracy for running the health service in Wales that my constituents and administration costs across the NHS, which have to put up with, sometimes tragically? cumulatively will be in of the order of £5.5 billion.

Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an excellent David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Is the Minister point—in fact, an excellent series of points. On his also aware that the National Audit Office report shows behalf I am glad to send to the Minister for Health and without doubt that deep and damaging cuts are taking Social Services in the Labour Government in Wales a place within the national health service, but that they copy of the annual report for England, perhaps inviting are all happening in Wales? Does he agree that the last her to publish a similar report in Wales. As the NAO thing we need is to see that repeated in England by said, and, indeed, as the Wales Audit Office said, only allowing these people control of our NHS? 60% or, on the latest data, only 68% of patients in Wales waiting for treatment accessed it within 18 weeks—the Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend is right. There is only right under the NHS constitution—whereas in the NHS one part of the United Kingdom where the health in England, the figure is 92%. service is being run by a Labour Government—in Wales, and that is the only part of the United Kingdom where the Government are deliberately cutting the budget of John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): NHS the NHS. We should not be surprised. The right hon. staff and patients simply do not have the same rosy view Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), the shadow Secretary of the NHS as the Secretary of State. When a Government- of State, at the time of the last election and afterwards, commissioned survey asked people last summer what told people that they should cut the budgets, and Labour they thought of the NHS, why had satisfaction with the in Wales did it. NHS plummeted from 70% to 55% in just a year under the Secretary of State? Several hon. Members rose—

Mr Lansley: The right hon. Gentleman makes an Mr Speaker: On the whole, if at all possible, and it is interesting point, because MORI conducted an independent not always possible, I prefer to avoid sibling rivalry so I survey last December after the survey conducted on shall now call Mr Keith Vaz. behalf of the King’s Fund. The survey said that 70% of people were satisfied with the running of the NHS; Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May I declare my 77% agreed that their local NHS provided a good interest as a type 2 diabetic and say how disappointed I service; and 73% agreed that England had one of the am that the Secretary of State did not mention diabetes best national health services in the world—the highest in his statement today? Fifty per cent. of adult diabetics level ever recorded in that survey. have not had the nine care processes that are necessary. Will he ensure that commissioning groups are asked to Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I am pleased and ring-fence resources to help with diabetes prevention? reassured by the comments from the Secretary of State on outcomes, which he said were among the best in the Mr Lansley: There are many conditions from which world. In view of that, would he perhaps reconsider patients suffer that I did not mention in the statement whether it is wise to press ahead with such disruptive because the purpose of the draft mandate to the NHS and damaging reforms? Commissioning Board is to improve the quality of services across the board, and the objectives we are looking for are about improvement across the whole Mr Lansley: One reason why the NHS continues to service, rather than trying to isolate and identify individual deliver such significant improvements in performance is conditions. But the NHS Commissioning Board will that through the transition, we are increasing clinical indeed go about the task of doing so. In recent years we leadership, which will make an important, positive have increased the proportion of patients with diabetes difference, and can already be shown to have done so. who have access to the nine recommended processes, For example, we are managing patients more effectively and I know we will increase the number in future. I draw in the community, and reducing reliance on acute admission to the right hon. Gentleman’s attention, among the to hospital. The number of emergency admissions to figures reflected in the report, the fact that, at the end of hospital in the year just ended went down, which is a 2011-12, 99% of people with diabetes had been offered strong basis on which to develop services in future, and screening for diabetic retinopathy in the previous that is happening not least because of leadership in the 12 months—an increase from 98.6% in the preceding primary care community. I hope that my hon. Friend quarter. from Cornwall, along with other Members, supports the assumption of clinical leadership through clinical Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I particularly commissioning groups by those clinicians. welcome the inclusion of the patient experience in the outcome framework. May I urge my right hon. Friend Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): Like my right hon. to make sure that commissioners and communities can Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), the clearly access the patient experience data so that they former Chair of the Select Committee on Health, I have can see the real value that communities can place on not had sight of the report, but will the Secretary of community hospitals, and may I urge him to set out a State say what the cost to the public purse of the pause clear database of community hospitals across England and the reorganisation will be? so that it can be much more readily available? 927 NHS Annual Report and Care 4 JULY 2012 NHS Annual Report and Care 928 Objectives Objectives Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I agree £1.5 billion of total support for them to be able to pay that measuring patients’ experience of care is very for their PFI projects. Where there are opportunities for important. Although there was and continues to be an renegotiation we will exercise them, but unfortunately it NHS patients survey, there are many areas of patients’ is in the nature of coming into government that we experience that it did not reflect. For example, we inherit what the previous Government left us. We were received yesterday the first of the VOICES—views of left with 102 hospital—[Interruption.] The shadow informal carers for the evaluation of services—a survey Secretary of State says from a sedentary position that of the experience of bereaved families of the quality of they were our PFI schemes. No NHS PFI scheme was end-of-life care that their family member received. That signed before the Labour Government took office in is part of the process of ensuring that for the future we 1997. Two years ago we inherited 102 hospital projects understand, measure and respond to the views of bereaved with £73 billion of debt, yet the Opposition thought families about the quality of care they received. That is that in the years before they had used taxpayers’ money just one illustration. Another is for the very first time to build these new hospitals. No, they did not. They measuring the experience of care reported by young saddled the NHS for 30 years with that debt. people below the age of 16. There is a complex inter- relationship with the specific benefits of community Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Talking hospitals in individual locations, but I hope that one of about waste, will the Secretary of State explain why his the things we will be able to do is look at the data, which Department has wasted hundreds of thousands of pounds will be disaggregated across the country, and increasingly on consultancy fees looking at my acute trust, and why see what most contributes to the high levels of patient his Department refuses to publish the reports? Could it experience in different parts of the country. be that they are a complete waste of time?

Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I join the Secretary of Mr Lansley: In the year before the election the State in congratulating NHS staff on their hard work Department of Health spent about £110 million on and dedication, which is even more remarkable given consultancy and we reduced it to £10 million. I will tell the disastrous reorganisation they are having to work the hon. Gentleman about waste. In the past two years through at present. The Secretary of State talks about we have already racked up £1.4 billion of administration the new era. Can he today in Parliament rule out any savings across the NHS—money that goes straight back additional charges anywhere in the NHS for patients into the front line. The Department is having to do who use the NHS in the next few years? work in relation to the hon. Gentleman’s hospital at Whiston only because of the PFI deal that his Government Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I signed before the last election. We will have to help St said during the passage of the Health and Social Care Helen’s and Knowsley trust deal with that debt in the Act 2012 that it had been intensively considered in its future. every aspect. The Act expressly rules out the introduction of any charges across the NHS, other than by further David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Will my right primary legislation, and there is no primary legislation hon. Friend join me in welcoming the progress that East to permit such a thing. So I reiterate the point: there will Cheshire clinical commissioning group is making in be no additional charging for treatment in the NHS. building a collaborative approach to delivering health care in the Macclesfield area? Does he believe that other Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): Many of my areas could benefit from observing the constructive constituents are concerned that under the Labour approach being taken there? Government £11 billion of PFI contracts were signed, which will cost the NHS over £60 billion to pay back. Mr Lansley: Yes. I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He They are concerned that PFI, Labour’s toxic legacy to is absolutely right. I had the pleasure of meeting Dr Paul the NHS, has the potential to bankrupt many health Bowen from his clinical commissioning group when I trusts. Can my right hon. Friend reassure my constituents visited Blue Coat school in Liverpool. Leaders of clinical about possibly renegotiating some of these contracts? commissioning groups from across the north-west came together and many of them are already exercising Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important 100% delegated responsibility for local commissioning point. When the shadow Secretary of State was attempting budgets and showing how they can improve services to suggest that there were trusts in trouble across the using that. We know that in a financially challenging country, he might have had the humility to admit that environment reducing cost is important, but redesigning the hospital trusts in the greatest difficulty are the ones services to deliver care more effectively with the resources that were saddled with unsustainable debt by the Labour available is even more important, and that is precisely Government’s poorly negotiated PFI projects. He might what the clinical leadership in those groups is doing. have instanced Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust. Monitor wrote to him and his Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): In Ashfield in the colleagues, telling them that that PFI project should not past year the number of people waiting in accident and have proceeded. The Labour Government went ahead emergency for more than four hours has almost doubled, with it anyway and it is now unsustainable. we have lost our NHS walk-in centre, and there are now We have been very clear. We have gone through a proposals to close our community hospital. Why does process of identifying where trusts can manage, not the Secretary of State think these things are happening? least with us assisting them. In the latter part of last year we identified seven trusts that we will step in and Mr Lansley: As I made clear in my statement, according support if we believe that they are otherwise unable to to the latest data 96.5% of patients in A and E are restore their finances to good health. It will entail about assessed, treated and discharged within four hours. The 929 NHS Annual Report and Care 4 JULY 2012 NHS Annual Report and Care 930 Objectives Objectives [Mr Lansley] Yorkshire to make these things happen more effectively.The PCT did not finish last year in deficit; only three in the right hon. Member for Leigh asked about the difference whole of England did—Barnet, Enfield and Haringey. I between a target and an outcome, but the point is that it will make sure—[Interruption.] If he listens to my is not enough to measure whether a patient has been answer, he will hear that we, along with the NHS seen and treated within four hours; the issue is the Commissioning Board, intend all the new clinical quality of treatment they receive, which is why our A commissioning groups across England to start on 1 April and E quality indicators go further. The hon. Lady and 2013 with clean balance sheets and without legacy debt I have had correspondence on this—I will be glad to from primary care trusts. That will give them the best look back and ensure that I have kept it up to date—so possible chance of delivering the best possible care. On she knows that there has been a review of walk-in bariatric surgery, he must know that the NICE guidance centres and that there is a need for people to have access recommends that it should be available to those with a not only to emergency departments, but to urgent care BMI index of over 40, depending on their clinical in a way that does not entail having to wait for a long circumstances. time in A and E. I do not remember all the details, but I recall that some of the services offered in one walk-in Hugh Bayley: Sowhyisit50— centre in her constituency were being transferred to another that was adjacent to the A and E. Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman should not keep shouting out. He has asked his question and had John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I welcome the statement. the answer. We will now move on. In order fully to fulfil the NHS mandate, we need to raise NHS staff morale. What plans does the Secretary Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Does the Secretary of State have for doing that? of State agree that one of the lasting achievements of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 will be the integration Mr Lansley: I think that what most gives staff a sense of health and social care, which will be excellent news of motivation and morale, in any organisation in any for people recovering from strokes or meningitis? walk of life, is being more in control of the service they deliver. That is evidenced across many areas of economic Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The and service activity. That is what we are doing for the Labour party completely ignores the fact that one of NHS. Whether in foundation trusts or clinical the central points is that the creation of health and commissioning groups, staff will feel that they have wellbeing boards—I pay credit to my Liberal Democrat more control over the service they deliver. Consequently, friends in the coalition for that—the involvement of I believe that as we see the figures improve it will be less democratic accountability and the opportunity to create a case of politicians interfering, or even trying to take joint strategies that integrate public health, social care credit, and much more a case of NHS staff taking and the NHS and impact additionally on the wider and credit for the services they deliver. social determinants of health will be absolutely instrumental in the improvement of services and health in future. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Last week the board of the NHS North Yorkshire and York primary Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): care trust cluster received a financial position statement Will the Secretary of State confirm that shortly after that identified the need for cuts of £230 million, plus taking office he downgraded the standard that the NHS unfunded costs pressures of £55 million a year, and should see A and E patients within four hours from noted that 98% to 95% and that many A and E units are now “the risks would grow even greater as it moved from a single failing to meet even that relaxed target? Does he believe organisation…to five much smaller clinical commissioning groups.” that that was the right move, and does he have any other Many treatments are already not available to patients in plans to change it again? North Yorkshire and York, even though they are available to those in neighbouring areas. Bariatric surgery, for Mr Lansley: I did indeed reduce the standard to 95%, example, is available to people elsewhere with a body on clinical advice, and currently the NHS is achieving mass index of 40, but people in North Yorkshire and 96.5%. York have to be much more obese, with a body mass index of 50, to get it. Will the Secretary of State look at Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): On a recent visit to that report, make a thoughtful response and put both in observe the excellent work of my local ambulance station the Library of the House so that Members can see how in Alfreton, I was shown the widely different times it this financial crisis in the North Yorkshire and York takes certain hospitals to admit patients arriving by primary care trust is being dealt with? ambulance, which leads to ambulances being off the road for longer than they need to be. Is there anything Mr Lansley: Identifying cost pressures and risks is, of the Secretary of State can do to strengthen the guidance course, a necessary part of the process of managing on how hospitals should handle this process to avoid those risks, but I am afraid that the claim by the the problem? outgoing primary care trust that the risks cannot be managed by the incoming clinical commissioning groups Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important is contrary to the experience of everybody in the hon. point. Part of the measurement of the performance of Gentleman’s part of the world, as he must know from ambulance trusts, together with their hospitals, is to the experience of the primary care trusts in North record the number of occasions when ambulances wait Yorkshire. The primary care trusts of the past did not more than 15 minutes before discharging their patients cope, and it is up to the new clinical leadership in into the service. The Minister of State, my right hon. 931 NHS Annual Report and Care 4 JULY 2012 NHS Annual Report and Care 932 Objectives Objectives Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), is very Mr Lansley: I reiterate to the hon. Gentleman and to concerned and pursues precisely those issues, so I will the House that the purpose of reports across the NHS is ask him to look into the matter further and respond to not to isolate individual conditions and to report on all my hon. Friend. of them, because if we attempted to do so the resulting document would be not the size of the one before me, Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Secretary of but 10 times that. The object is to improve outcomes State told us earlier that every ambulance trust was across the board. meeting core response times, but I have to tell him that Let me make two points. First, one thing that the that is not the experience of my constituents, including NHS did achieve last year involved 528,000 people Mrs Taylor, who had to wait 90 minutes after falling having access to talking—psychological—therapies, and down stairs. Is not the truth that this is the result of that in itself should substantially reduce dependence on reorganisation and the resulting cuts are making it medication for depression. Secondly, and I think impossible for ambulance trusts up and down the country importantly, of the 22 overall objectives established in to hit the times he says they are hitting, because they are the NHS Commissioning Board’s draft mandate, the not actually doing it? ninth is about making mental health as important as physical health—creating a parity of esteem between Mr Lansley: No, and I do not think that the staff of the two. The measure is in the Health and Social Care ambulance trusts will appreciate the hon. Gentleman Act 2012, it is being carried through into the objectives generalising from the particular. I have not said that of the NHS Commissioning Board and it will, in itself, ambulance trusts reach every case in the time we intend, be important when carried through into practice. but the figures show that all ambulance trusts across England have met the category A target for responding Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I warmly welcome consistently at a level they have not previously achieved. the improvements in screening, diagnostics and treatment Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): I for those suffering from cancer, but patient outcomes welcome the reforms and improvement to the NHS that are wildly different. For some, 10% of treatment will be the Secretary of State is delivering. However, the NHS successful, for others, 85% will be, and this means that paid out £1.3 billion in compensation claims last year, a we need more research to highlight which drugs and rise of almost 50% on the year before. A spokesman has treatments should be introduced. May I make a bid for said that that is partly due to aggressive marketing by part of the surplus to be directed to the expensive no-win, no-fee lawyers. Does my right hon. Friend equipment that is required to make such research happen, agree that the current level of compensation claims in so that treatment and outcomes can be improved? this country, in both the public and private sectors, is completely unsustainable and that it is now time to Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes a very important curtail the out-of-control compensation culture? point, and one announcement I was happily able to make earlier this year was in response to the report by Mr Lansley: My hon. Friend makes an important Professor Sir John Bell and his colleagues, whereby we point. From our point of view, the legislation that will now put resources behind the establishment of passed through this House in the last Session, led by my genetic testing centres throughout the NHS, the purpose the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend of which will be not least to enable us to undertake what the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), will be is known as stratified medicine. This means that, by important and will help us in relation to some of these identifying when medicines have particular benefits for matters, not least on the use of no-win, no-fee arrangements. patients with certain genetic characteristics or phenotypes, From time to time it has been deeply frustrating for us we will be able to target such treatments, as we will be all to see that, of the money paid out by the NHS as a much more certain of their effectiveness and be able to result of negligence claims, sometimes more is paid in reduce, as my hon. Friend rightly says, the many cases fees, not least to lawyers, than is provided in compensation in which medicines are prescribed but turn out not to be to those who have suffered harm. In the NHS we effective in that patient’s circumstances. recognise the need to provide compensation when harm has occurred. It is extremely costly. The costs have risen John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): and we want to minimise them. Reducing harm in the If the Secretary of State really believes that people will NHS will be important, but ensuring that we respond to accept Ministers standing back from the consequences complaints and offer redress more openly will also help of their decisions, will he hear from families in my us to manage the extent to which people resort expensively constituency, who are going to be devastated if, after all to the courts. the turmoil—of which he is well aware—and after the forthcoming review, they are forced to travel for an hour Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Of the 150 lines and for 50 miles to receive consultant-led maternity in the Secretary of State’s statement, only six referred services? specifically to mental health, despite the fact that between 1991 and 2011 the number of antidepressant prescriptions Mr Lansley: I do not construe what we are doing as increased from 9 million to 46 million, a 500% increase. Ministers stepping back from the consequences of our In 2004 NICE recommended mindfulness, a non-drug decisions. The Secretary of State will continue to be self-help therapy with no side effects, as better, more responsible for the comprehensive health service, and I efficient and less costly than drug therapy, but it has not fully expect, in the same way as I am making a statement been taken up. I am not blaming him, but will we have today on the first annual report, that I and my successors an inquiry into the reasons for the massive increase in will make statements in years to come on annual reports the prescription of antidepressants and the reason why and be held to account for the performance of the mindfulness has not been taken up? service. 933 NHS Annual Report and Care 4 JULY 2012 NHS Annual Report and Care 934 Objectives Objectives [Mr Lansley] be—true in relation to services in west London for emergency care, and I will not go through this all The point is that delivering the best possible care is again, but I reiterate that, if people object and say that not achieved by Ministers interfering on a day-to-day such an aim will not be achieved, it is open to a local basis in how the NHS goes about its task. We have been authority to refer the matter to a mere Secretary of very clear, through today’s mandate, about what we are State on the basis that the tests I have set down have not looking for the NHS to achieve: consistently improving been met. outcomes. We are not trying to tell the NHS to do so. Any particular service change, such as the one the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) hon. Gentleman describes, has to meet four tests: being (LD): I welcome the encouraging and successful results of clear clinical benefit; responding to the needs and of the work of our NHS staff in delivering the outcomes wishes of local service commissioners; responding to that the Secretary of State has reported in this first strong patient and public engagement; and maintaining annual report. A vox pop in one of our local papers last and protecting patient choice. If there are any questions month showed that everybody bar one thought that the and objections, stating that such a service change does NHS was doing a good job. The only complaint was not achieve those aims, his local authority has the right that one person had to wait a little too long to be seen under legislation to refer the matter to the Secretary of by their GP. State for its reconsideration, so I am not taking the One thing that would encourage people also is to Secretary of State out of the process completely. know that, if there ever are proposals to discontinue The safe and sustainable review was set up independently NHS services or to transfer them from NHS management by his right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh, and it to private or voluntary sector management, they will has been conducted completely independently, but, in always be subject to consultation and proceed only with the same way as I have just described, if local authorities the consent of the public. have grounds for objections, they have also a mechanism, if they wish to use it, for referral. Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. Let me just separate those two parts. First, when there Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I applaud my right are changes in a service, such as when there is a hon. Friend on his statement today and on the publication proposal to change the provider of community services of the annual report, from which I note that 12,500 from, for example, an NHS-owned provider to an patients in England have been able to access specialist independent sector provider, they will be a subject for cancer treatment as a result of the cancer drugs fund. local consultation. The corresponding figure in Wales is zero, because the Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman will recall that, Labour Government in Cardiff refuse to put in place a when there is any proposal not to provide a service, the similar scheme in Wales. Does my right hon. Friend Secretary of State is responsible under legislation for agree that cancer patients in Wales deserve access to the the provision of a comprehensive health service. It is same treatment as cancer patients in England? not open, as I have made clear to the right hon. Member Mr Lansley: Yes, I could not agree more. It was for Leigh, to the NHS to discontinue the provision of precisely because Professor Sir Mike Richards undertook NHS services. It has to—[Interruption.] He says from a an inquiry and produced a report identifying a lack of sedentary position, “It is doing so,” but he is completely access in this country to new cancer medicines in the wrong. I wrote to him this morning. first year after their introduction that we instituted the We have stopped precisely the things that he said used cancer drugs fund. It is a matter of considerable regret to happen under the Labour Government, and it is to many of us that that example was not followed in a precisely the case that trusts and future commissioners similar way in Wales. will have to maintain a comprehensive health service. They can apply clinical criteria and judge certain treatments Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): What message to be of relatively poor value, but they must always does the Secretary of State have for the 2 million people maintain a service and show how they are responding to in west London, four of whose nine major hospitals are the clinical needs of their patients. set to lose their A and E departments, including both, Hammersmith and Charing Cross, in my constituency? Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Ever since I That is the Secretary of State’s policy. He cannot pass was elected to Parliament, I have campaigned for an the buck to the NHS on this or, indeed, on the threat to urgent care centre in a hospital in my constituency. the Royal Brompton hospital’s children’s services; he Labour took NHS provision out of my constituency, has to answer for it. but with the new Nene Valley clinical commissioning group we are going for the first time to have that urgent Mr Lansley: No. Let me reiterate to the hon. Gentleman care centre. So I should welcome the Secretary of State the point I have just made, because what he describes is to Wellingborough, but I must warn him that he would not my policy. If there are proposals, they are proposals be carried shoulder-high through its streets—with people that have been generated in north-west and west London, cheering him. and the safe and sustainable review is an independent review. It is not establishing the Government’s policy; it Mr Lansley: I cannot resist the enticement of such an is an independent review in the NHS, looking at how invitation from my hon. Friend. It will reiterate what I services can be improved. found a year or so ago when I visited the nascent Nene The review was not in any sense about costs; it was Valley commissioning organisation. People there are entirely about how we sustain the highest quality of really taking hold of things and showing how they can excellent care for patients. The same will be—needs to improve services in Northamptonshire. 935 NHS Annual Report and Care 4 JULY 2012 936 Objectives Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Over the past year, the Point of Order Department of Health has made statements about the fact that radiotherapy is eight times more effective than 1.31 pm drugs. It is said that the cancer drugs fund is £100 million underspent and the figures of £150 million and £750 million Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab) rose— have been mentioned in connection with new radiotherapy and radiosurgery services. Will the Secretary of State Mr Speaker: Order. consider transferring at least that underspent funding into radiotherapy and radiosurgery services so that new Hugh Bayley: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am services in the south-west do not depend on charitable sorry; I let my indignation get the better of me. funding? I have a point of order that I hope you will consider, Mr Speaker. I went twice to the Vote Office this morning Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The to see whether I could get a copy of the NHS annual issue is important. In the cancer outcomes strategy, we report so that I could read it before we heard the responded positively to the recommendations of the statement. I was told that it would not be available. National Radiotherapy Advisory Group. There was a Could we change our procedures so that when a Minister £400 million programme for the support of radiotherapy; is presenting a document to the House, the document more recently, I have added to that a commitment to itself is circulated around the Chamber as well the build two new centres for proton beam therapy. From statement? Even better, the document could be put in about 2015, patients requiring such therapy will not the Vote Office under strict embargo, say, an hour have to go abroad to access it. beforehand. Could that be considered? My hon. Friend makes an important point. In the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for early part of this year, we made additional resources his point of order. Of course, what he has mentioned is available to the NHS supply chain so that more radiotherapy not a matter of current practice and the fact that it is machines could be readily available for purchase or not is what the hon. Gentleman judges to be unsatisfactory, lease through the NHS without costs being incurred and he seeks a change. It seems a perfectly reasonable over the same period. I will look at what my hon. Friend subject for consideration by the Procedure Committee, has said. I think that in the cancer outcomes strategy and I doubt whether the hon. Gentleman will require we have set out all the investment in radiotherapy that much further encouragement to take the matter up with we think is clinically indicated, but I will continue to the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight). review it. 937 4 JULY 2012 Town and Country Planning 938 Regulations 2007 (Amendment) Town and Country Planning (Control of My Bill has four clauses. The first disapplies schedule 3 Advertisements) (England) Regulations to the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007 in so far 2007 (Amendment) as it applies to “To Let” signs. It deletes the phrase “or Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order letting” from the Act. Thus “For Sale” signs would No. 23) remain, while lettings signs would not. Clause 2 enables local authorities to make byelaws 1.32 pm regulating “To Let” signs for all or part of the local Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): authority area. That seems to be in keeping with the I beg to move, Government’s desire to shift responsibility for purely local matters to local government. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations It would therefore be possible for different rules to 2007 to limit the display of external advertisements concerning apply in different parts of the country according to the lettings; and for connected purposes. wishes of local people, as expressed through their local My Bill is designed to deal with the overuse of estate representatives. Local authorities enjoy day-to-day agents’ “To Let” signs. It has supporters from each of responsibility for housing policy, as well as local planning the three main parties. Following the last constituency issues, so that seems a proportionate and appropriate boundary changes, I represent, for the first time, the way of dealing with the issue. mixed residential area of Jesmond in Newcastle upon Clause 3 makes it clear that when local authorities Tyne. As well as being home to long-term residents, the have not made rules for “To Let” signs, the default is area has a large population of students and young that the signs should be banned. Clause 4 is a penalties graduate professionals. The attractiveness of the area is regime on conviction of committing the offence, on the spoilt by a plethora of “To Let” estate agent signs—signs appropriate county court scale, with rising penalties for that seem to me to be permanent display items, regardless repeat offenders. I accept that it is currently possible of whether the flat in question is actually to let or not. for local authorities to apply to the Department for Whatever the justification for the signs in the past, Communities and Local Government for permission to there is not much of a case for them now. Students and take steps to deal with the problem. However, the young professionals do not use “To Let” signs to find present procedures are cumbersome and disproportionate. vacant flats; they use the internet, the lettings columns My proposal is a much neater and more clear cut way of of Newcastle’s The Journal and Evening Chronicle and dealing with the problem, and is rooted in our commitment estate agents’ offices, and students can use the services to local democracy. I commend the Bill to the House. provided by the universities and student unions. Question put and agreed to. The situation, of course, is not unique to Newcastle; Ordered, the same problem occurs in a slightly different guise in That Mr Nicholas Brown, Roberta Blackman-Woods, seaside towns and other cities—and for the same underlying Frank Dobson, Mrs Sharon Hodgson, Ian Mearns, reason, I suspect. It seems likely that the real reason the Miss Anne McIntosh, Catherine McKinnell, Mr George estate agent signs proliferate and stay up much longer Mudie, Chi Onwurah, Sir Bob Russell, Mr Andrew than for their stated purpose is that they serve as a form Smith and Bob Stewart present the Bill. of advertisement for the estate agent. In a competitive market, each agent feels the need to have signs to Mr Nicholas Brown accordingly presented the Bill. advertise their presence, because rival estate agents have Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on them. Friday, 7 September 2012 and to be printed (Bill 56). 939 4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 940

Estimates Day report that has big and long recommendations; rather, we make specific suggestions that we want the UKBA [1ST ALLOTTED DAY] to follow. As the estimates indicate, the UKBA’s budget for VOTE ON ACCOUNT 2012-13 2012-13 is £1 billion, and it has a staff of 12,835, while the UK Border Force’s budget is £509 million, and it HOME OFFICE has a staff of 7,333. A number of ongoing issues arose under the previous Labour Government, and I shall touch on some of those. The first issue is foreign national UK Border Agency offenders. There are 3,900 foreign national criminals [Relevant Documents: The Fifteenth Report from the living in the community who are subject to deportation, Home Affairs Committee, Session 2010-12, on the work 57 of whom are part of the famous 2006 cohort who are of the UK Border Agency (April-July 2011), HC 1497, still unable to be traced. In 2006, 1,013 foreign prisoners and the Government response, Cm 8253, and the Twenty-First were released without any attempt being made to deport Report from the Committee, Session 2010-12, on the them. Of those, 844 people’s cases have been concluded, work of the UK Border Agency (August-December 2011), 399 people have been deported, 445 have not been HC 1722, and the Government response, Session 2012-13, deported, 93 are still in the process of being deported, HC 378.] 19 are serving another sentence, and 57 are untraceable. Motion made, and Question proposed, That situation has been ongoing for the past six years or That, for the year ending with 31 March 2013, for expenditure so, and we will continue to monitor it until every one of by the Home Office— those foreign national criminals has been found. (1) further resources, not exceeding £5,223,694,000, be authorised for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1919 of Session Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Did my right hon. Friend’s 2010-12, Committee consider why, when someone is found guilty (2) further resources, not exceeding £274,499,000, be authorised of a criminal offence in this country and sentenced to for use for capital purposes as so set out, and prison, we cannot find a way of sending them back to (3) a further sum, not exceeding £5,536,178,000, be granted to serve their sentence in the country that they came from, Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated instead of having them serve it in our prisons so that we Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised by Parliament.—(Mr Vara.) have problems years later in trying to send them back? My constituents are always asking me about this. 1.38 pm Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. These open this important debate about not only the Home options need to be considered, as they were under the Office estimates but the Home Affairs Committee’s previous Labour Government in respect of Nigeria. reports into the UK Border Agency. I am pleased to see Last Thursday, I was in her constituency with members the Minister and shadow Minister and so many right of the Select Committee and we went to Brixton prison, hon. and hon. Members who have direct experience of where the governor told us that a third of the prisoners dealing with the UK Border Agency. were foreign nationals and that he could not remember a single occasion when such a prisoner was removed at I particularly welcome members of the Home Affairs the end of their sentence; they were either taken into the Committee who are here today. My hon. Friend the community or made to report to a detention centre. Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) and the hon. Members for Oxford West and The Government need to be given credit for the fact Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) and for Northampton that the average time taken to deport has been reduced North (Michael Ellis) have made enormous contributions from 131 days in 2008 to 74 days in 2011, but that is still to the reports that the Select Committee has published far too long. There is still a lack of cohesion between in the past few years. The main feature of our reports is the National Offender Management Service and the that they have been unanimous. Another feature has Home Office. UKBA staff are stationed at Brixton been our hope that with a succession of very carefully prison, but the problem is that the UKBA is not informed worded but carefully thought out reports we will be able about cases involving foreign national criminals right at to improve the quality of the UK Border Agency. the beginning of the process, at the time of sentencing. Right at the start, I want to make something clear. I We have recommended in successive reports that that have chaired the Home Affairs Committee for five should happen in order to shorten the period between years. We have produced our reports about the the release of the prisoner and their being removed to administration of the UKBA on a regular basis under his or her country. the previous Government and the current Government, In all the years I have been in this House, the main and we have been as critical in the former case as in the issue that has dogged the border forces has been the latter. There is no party political point in this; it is continual delays and backlogs that have gone on under about trying to get the best possible service that can be successive Governments. We only recently discovered as provided to those who use the UKBA. We decided at part of our inquiry that a number of new, almost the start of the Parliament to look regularly at how the virtual reality, filing systems exist at the UKBA. There UKBA operates, so every three months we revisit our is the controlled archive which dates back to 2006; I report to see whether there has been any improvement prefer to call it the TARDIS, because files go in there in the system. We also decided to put up a number of and seem never to come out. The controlled archive is key indicators by which we judge how the UKBA the place where files are dumped in cases where the operates. It is not the usual kind of Select Committee UKBA does not know where the people are. 941 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 942

Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): Does the Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): To go back to right hon. Gentleman accept that one of the most the controlled archive and the removal of old cases, is significant reasons for the difficulty in returning people the right hon. Gentleman aware that new cases are still to their countries of origin is the fact that those countries, being added to it? It is very much like filling up a Jaguar including some with which this nation has very good car with petrol while leaving the engine on, so more relations, often do not want them back and therefore petrol is needed at the pump. obfuscate and create delay, making it much harder for us to deport them efficiently? Keith Vaz: As the hon. Gentleman will know from his case load, it is a continuing process. He will hear about Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right more of these cases on Friday when he holds his surgery. that that is a problem, but that does not mean that we The Select Committee is saying that the backlog must do not have to try to make sure that such deportations be cleared, not just put in a different part of the UKBA. happen, because that would be a huge saving to the It cannot just move the files from Croydon to Liverpool taxpayer and help us to meet the targets that the and expect the situation to be sorted out. It must clear Government clearly want us to reach. the backlog once and for all. With the willingness to do so and the £1 billion of resources that are available each Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): My right hon. Friend year, that should be possible. referred to the TARDIS, as he calls it, but there are other cases in which people who have not yet been Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Will my right hon. deported are simply categorised as “unknown issues”, Friend give way? so we have the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns. That is a bizarre way of dealing with people, Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con) rose— is it not? Keith Vaz: I will give way twice more, but then I must make progress because other Members want to speak. Keith Vaz: It is indeed. There seems to be a paralysis on the part of senior officials of the UKBA, who just Fiona Mactaggart: I concur with what my right hon. create more of these archives and move the backlog into Friend has said about clearing the backlog once and for different areas without trying to solve the problem. all. One of my concerns is that, in the present exercise of The archive has now been reduced from 98,000 to dealing with legacy cases and the backlog, instead of 93,000, and from January to March 2012 it fell to making a final decision on cases—people used to be 80,000. When Mr Whiteman, the chief executive of the given indefinite leave to remain or were returned—lots UKBA, who has been brought in as a new broom to try of people are being given three years’ discretionary to make sure that these matters are sorted out, last leave, which means that a new backlog is being created appeared before the Committee, he promised us that the for three years’ time. archive will, in effect, be closed by 31 December 2012, and we will hold him to that promise. His predecessor, Keith Vaz: No one in this House knows more about Lin Homer, who because of the fabulous work that she these issues than my hon. Friend, having been the chair did at the UKBA has been promoted and is now one of of the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants. She the permanent secretaries at the Treasury, gave us a is right that decisions are being put off. promise when she said, in answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick), who had Richard Fuller: The right hon. Gentleman mentioned requested that the legacy cases be concluded by the end that immigration is an issue of statistics. It may not be of last summer, that every single legacy case would be popular to say so, but does he agree that it is also an concluded by the end of last year. [Interruption.]As can issue about the lives of individual people? In managing be seen from the reaction of right hon. and hon. Members the statistics, we should not lose sight—no matter what here today, that has not happened. The UKBA has the tabloids say—of the fact that we are talking about probably just created another of the filing systems people who may have made a commitment to come here where it puts various files when it does not know what and who may have gone through extremely difficult has happened to the people involved. circumstances to get here. How we treat such people should have just as much emphasis in our consideration Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): as dealing with the statistics. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that one of the key areas in which we need to hold the UKBA to Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. account is data management? It is almost impossible to Yarl’s Wood is near his constituency, so he will have understand what is going on and who is going where if dealt with these kinds of cases. It is important that we we do not have clarity and transparency about the look at the cases on an individual basis. Of course they numbers. form part of a grid, table or pie chart, but they involve individual people with real problems that we need to Keith Vaz: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. She deal with. makes that point every time the head of the UKBA I will move on to students, which is an issue of great appears before us; I do not know whether she is an interest to the hon. Member for Oxford West and expert on data management. It is a big problem because, Abingdon. The Select Committee happens to contain in the end, the immigration debate is about statistics. If not only the hon. Lady, but the hon. Member for the statistics are not right and we are unable to get the Cambridge (Dr Huppert), so obviously student visas proper data, we cannot have an effective debate about are an important issue to it. Of course, the fine universities what is happening. of Northampton, Leicester, De Montfort and Rhondda 943 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 944 are also represented in the Chamber. [Interruption.] If sector. We still need the brightest and best students to there is not a university of Rhondda, I am sure that come to our fantastic universities, such as Oxford university there will be by the end of the week. and Oxford Brookes university. We love seeing the Minister for Immigration before the Committee, although we do not see him often Keith Vaz: I agree with the hon. Lady, but that is true enough. He is coming before us on Tuesday. When he not only of the elite, which includes Oxford and Oxford last came before us, we talked about student visas. Brookes universities, but of all the other language schools There is definitely a difference of emphasis between the and higher education colleges that provide such a wonderful Foreign Office, the Department for Business, Innovation service. and Skills and the Home Office. The Home Office feels I will turn to family migration, which I know the that it is very important to reduce the number of students, Minister for Immigration will be asked about when he and to reduce the intake only to the brightest and the comes before the Select Committee on Tuesday. The best—whatever that means. new migration changes will come into effect on Monday. We all want to get rid of bogus colleges. That is why That, in my view, will be a disaster for the settled British the Committee has pressed the UKBA to ensure that Asian community. We are dealing not with people who more of its visits are unannounced. The majority of its come here illegally, but with the settled community, visits to colleges are still announced. People can therefore which the Prime Minister rightly praised recently at a prepare for its arrival. We believe that it is important, as big meeting of the Conservative Friends of India. Some we have said in successive reports, that it just turns up 1,000 members of the diaspora turned up and listened on a Monday morning, a Friday afternoon or a Wednesday to the Prime Minister’s speech. They liked what he said, morning to see whether the college is operating. It is but they will not like what the Minister and the Home quite easy to do that. The UKBA does it for enforcement Office are going to do on family visitor visas. purposes. I have many examples of that. Indeed, the Last week, I was presented with a case involving a Home Secretary has given the example of a restaurant wedding that will take place in Leicester in three weeks’ in her constituency, which she visited regularly and time. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for liked, being raided by the UKBA. It found that some of Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) and I will go the workers were here illegally. If it is all right to raid along, as we do with every wedding in Leicester. Two restaurants, it should be all right to go into colleges to sisters of the bride had applied to come over from see whether they are bogus. Toronto. One sister had been allowed to come, but the We and the university sector want as many genuine other had been refused. I wrote a letter, because there students to come here as possible, because if they do was no time for an appeal. The appeals system is so not come here, they will go to the United States of awful and takes so long, as the Minister keeps telling us America. There is even evidence that France is setting and the UKBA, that there was no point in appealing, up courses in English to attract people who do not want because the appeal would have come up next year, well to apply to come to the United Kingdom. It is therefore after the wedding. I therefore wrote to ask for a review. I important that we deal with student numbers. wrote to my account manager, Saleah Ahmed, who is very efficient. He is a post box—he does not make the decisions, but sent my letter to New York, which is the John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): There hub for north America. The letter that I got back said, are genuine students who apply to and are accepted by a “Sorry, the second sister’s case cannot be looked at college on the UKBA’s approved list only for the college because we only look at cases where there is a death or to be delisted. Those students are given no opportunity serious injury.”The first sister will be able to get into the to find an alternative course and are left high and dry. country for the wedding, but the second sister will not They, too, are victims of this system. be allowed in, despite the additional evidence that I have sent in, which will not even be considered. If the Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend is right. I have many bridegroom or the bride died, the decision might be examples of people who have come to my constituency reconsidered, but otherwise, the second sister will not only for the colleges to be closed down. That has be allowed into the country and will miss her sister’s happened to one or two colleges in Leicester. Where do wedding. those people go in the meantime? The colleges are That situation will be repeated thousands and thousands bogus, but the students are not. They have paid their of times when the right of appeal is removed and there money in good faith. They are then in limbo if they do is no effective system to deal with such problems. We not have a different educational establishment to go to. have asked the Minister for meeting. I hope that he will meet Members from all parts of the House who have an Nicola Blackwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman interest in this matter. The right hon. Member for give way? Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), members of whose community I have met, the right hon. Member Keith Vaz: I will give way as we are talking about for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), education and it is the hon. Member for Oxford West who must have a huge immigration case load, the hon. and Abingdon who wishes to intervene. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) and the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller)—I could go round Nicola Blackwood: As always, the right hon. Gentleman’s the whole Chamber—will not like a system which means generosity is extraordinary. Does he agree that it is vital that they can no longer tell their constituents that there to get the message right on student visas? It must be is a right of appeal. They will not like a system in which clear that, although we are clamping down on illegal there is no review or in which the review will take longer student immigration, we are still open to genuine student than the period that is left before such a wedding. We immigration, because it is vital to our higher education will be inundated with cases and the system will collapse. 945 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 946

[Keith Vaz] North (Mr Winnick) does his best to encourage us to be much more challenging—I was going to say divisive—in When I and other members of the Home Affairs how we present our reports. We will continue to monitor Committee went to meet Jonathan Sedgwick, who heads the UKBA every three months, and we will continue to the international section of the UKBA, he did not have give it key indicators, of which there are 47 at the a plan, because there was no ministerial plan in place. It moment. is very important that we get such a plan in place before The one thing that really irritates the Committee is the changes take place. I do not like those changes, of the fact that the UKBA delays in sending us information. course, but I will look at the plan that is on offer. I put that point to the Prime Minister in the Liaison Committee yesterday. That was a problem under the Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I am sure Labour Government and, I am sorry to say, there is my right hon. Friend is aware that the last Conservative still a problem under the current Government. We are Government abolished the right of appeal. As he said, dealing by and large with the same officials—Ministers when constituents who are sponsors write to us, we then have changed, but the officials and the culture remain write to the UKBA or the Minister and receive the the same. When we write to the UKBA and ask for predictable reply that the case was examined by information, we want a reply by a deadline, because the appropriate official, who took into consideration all when it writes to our constituents it expects a reply by a the details and came to a decision. Writing to the deadline. We want to ensure that the data that we ask Minister or the UKBA will get us no response other for are put forward and that our requests are not left on than one reaffirming the refusal. That is a denial of a Minister’s desk waiting to be replied to. We shall justice and means that the entry clearance officer is continue to hold the organisation to account in a rigorous judge and jury, which is totally wrong and inappropriate. and robust way, and we hope that that will be of benefit I hope the Minister will reconsider it. to Members.

Keith Vaz: I agree with my hon. Friend’s comments, 2.4 pm although I have not made them with quite the same passion and eloquence. This issue will simply not go Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): I start by away. being somewhat self-indulgent and paying tribute to my I hope that we will also consider the quality of refusal office staff. As Members may imagine, they have an notices. I pay tribute to John Vine, who is doing a enormous burden of immigration work in a Bradford superb job as the independent inspector. He came before constituency. I also pay tribute to the Home Affairs the Home Affairs Committee a few years ago, just after Committee, which has raised many of the relevant he was appointed, and I was worried that he would not issues so well that I can speak for a much shorter time be able to do a good job, but he has done a superb job. than I normally would on such an important topic for He makes the point that the process starts with the my constituency. refusal notice. If that is not clear, we cannot make I also pay tribute to the staff of the UKBA, because progress. although at times there appear to be systemically I do not know whether the Minister or other Members dysfunctional areas in the service, that should not lead had the chance to see the Prime Minister’s appearance to criticism of the individual officers with whom we before the Liaison Committee yesterday. In his answer work. In particular, I pay tribute to the account managers. to my question about the UKBA, he was very clear that Our own, Chris Taylor, has been excellent. I believe that he did not believe bonuses should be paid if the job was structural changes to the service are planned, and I urge not being done. The £3.5 million given to senior officials the Minister to retain the local connection. If that were of the UKBA last year, in defiance of the Home Affairs taken away, it would be greatly to the detriment of the Committee’s recommendation and the views of the service that is provided. Is it intended to keep that local Prime Minister and senior Ministers, who have no connection, which is so important to us? control over those bonuses, was wrong. Some 25% of the senior officials at the UKBA got a bonus of up to Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) £7,000 each last year. (LD): Does my hon. Friend agree that it is really important to get a good relationship between the person at the The Minister knows the problems of the UKBA. He UKBA and the constituency office team? The UKBA knows about the queues at Heathrow airport and is well does a far better job when it is willing to listen to MPs aware of what happened with the Brodie Clark saga. and their staff and respond positively. If it puts us at It is not an organisation whose senior officials are arm’s length and tries to run away from us, it delivers far worthy of being given bonuses. When they do a good less good a service. job, as Mr Whiteman has promised to do in the end, we can consider bonuses, but certainly not at the moment. Mr Ward: Absolutely. We often systematise things to I hope that the Minister will assure us that the 7,000 try to improve them when they are really about personal people in the Border Force will be enough to deal with relationships. We need to build close understandings the inflow of the 5 million to 11 million people who it is and partnerships, which in our case have been to the estimated will come to the UK in the three-week period benefit of clients with whom we have dealt. of the Olympics. I hope that the number of people that We were told that the UKBA’s legacy of cases would he promised would be at the airports to check people be cleared, with the vast majority being fully concluded. getting in will be forthcoming. As we now know, that meant the transferring of a big The Home Affairs Committee does not divide on its chunk of legacy cases into the controlled archive. Rightly reports if it can help it, although on points of great or wrongly, the impression was given that the archive principle my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall was a dumping ground and that the files were being 947 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 948 transferred because the UKBA had given up on those Mr Ward: The hon. Gentleman states our position cases. Dozens of people have walked into my constituency correctly. I support the appeals system. There would be office and we have been able to find no trace of their no dispute between us there. case, because it has already been put in the controlled The Government’s response states that the number of archive. It is then difficult to get it out again. I am complaints is due to their being difficult cases. sorry if this seems unfair, but it seems like our office is doing the work that the UKBA should have done, at Mr Winnick: I hope I am not being discourteous, and the cost of the time that it takes away from other I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to matters. intervene a second time. If that is the position of the Will the Minister confirm or deny that cases are still Liberal Democrats, what pressure are they putting on being added to the controlled archive? My understanding their coalition partner? Why are they not saying, “We is that if people do not turn up to report to the UKBA won’t go along with this”? three times, their cases are transferred to the archive. If that is not true, a clear message needs to be put out to Mr Ward: If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I that effect, because that is what we are told. would rather make my speech than the one he probably Another issue that has cropped up regularly is cases wants to make. If he makes that speech, I shall intervene being transferred into the controlled archive in error. and support him, but I would like to finish mine first. That is not so bad if they are then retrieved and dealt We are told that the number of complaints is a direct with properly, but the evidence suggests that such cases result of the complexity of the cases and their impact go to the back of the queue when they are retrieved. on individuals. Yes, that is the case to some degree, but That is patently unfair on people whose cases should the truth is also that the complaints arise from sheer never have been transferred in the first place. I understand mismanagement—lost files, poor administration and so that work is now taking place, with credit agencies and on. That would not be so bad if the services provided other means being utilised to deal with cases in the value for money, but they are hugely expensive—as controlled archive. As I said, however, it is difficult to much as £1,000—which means that people rightly demand, understand why those cases ever went there in the first and are entitled to, a good service. Given that the place, given that other methods and techniques were appeals process can cost another £120, which they do available to deal with them first time around. not get back if they are successful, they have a right to a My final point concerns intelligence. I understand first-rate system, yet that is clearly not being delivered. that my constituency office—one single office—accounts Will the Minister indicate what is being done to improve for 70% of the intelligence provided in the whole of the the level of service? I believe that the website talks west-Yorkshire region, which indicates the number of about a six-month turnaround time. Nobody believes cases we deal with and the confidence people have that that. They are lucky if it is eight months. So there is this they will be dealt with by my office. When I was a question of value for money. councillor, we were encouraged to dob in the dealers, and local residents would bring cases to us to take to the Fiona Mactaggart: The hon. Gentleman says that police. Those people did not hand in that information nobody believes the turnaround time, but the problem with disinterest, but wanted to know what would happen; is that many applicants do believe it, and then they they wanted feedback and to know whether the people come to people such as us and say, “Why am I being dealing drugs in the phone box on the opposite side of picked on?” I say, “You’re not being picked on. It’s like the road had been dealt with. this for everyone”, and they do not believe us. It is time that the Home Office was at least honest about how We all think it important that residents support the long it takes. police, but constituents want to know that something is actually happening. Yet that intelligence appears to Mr Ward: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. In fact, disappear without them ever knowing what has happened, everyone is being picked on, so in that sense it is fair which is patently unfair, not only on my office, through really. But that is the claim on the website, and it simply which the information goes, but on the people who have is not being delivered. We need a sense of realism. Not provided it. Feedback is important because the people only are these services very expensive, but on the delivery who provide the intelligence often do so at risk to side there is a huge let-down, which makes it even worse themselves: they might be acting extremely bravely—they when people come into our offices. So I would like the might be family members in marriages, some of them Minister to respond to those issues: value for money, sham marriages—and under threat for having provided intelligence and the issue of account managers and that evidence. Feedback, then, is not only good practice retaining that local connection. but humane. They need to know what happens to these people. Especially when there is a slow response in 2.16 pm terms of removal, they have a right to know what is happening, because their personal safety might be at Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I risk. congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) not only on the report of the Mr Winnick: The Liberal Democrats have always Home Affairs Select Committee, which he chairs, but supported the appeals system—as I recollect, they took on what he said today, particularly how he ended his the same view as us at the time of the previous Tory speech—on the abolition of appeal rights for visitors Government. Given that they are now part of the who are turned down. coalition and we know that the appeals system for If only because of the effluxion of time, as Winston visitors is being abolished, where does the hon. Gentleman Churchill called it, I have undoubtedly dealt with more stand? immigration cases than any other Member ever has. At 949 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 950

[Sir Gerald Kaufman] Let me give the House just a few examples of the botching that has gone on in cases I have dealt with. On present, I have 71 cases on my “active” files, and as 17 May, the Minister for Immigration wrote to me some are completed—occasionally positively but sometimes about a particular person, saying that a decision will be ending in despair—new ones flow in. When I hold my made on his application within the next four weeks. He constituency advice bureaux, as I have done on the past came to me on Saturday, six weeks after that promise two Saturdays, a preponderance of the cases I receive was made—no decision. Another constituent was told are immigration cases, and a substantial proportion of in a letter from the Minister that her application would those who come to me are constituents of Pakistani or be concluded within three months, yet it was not. What Bengali origin—although they do not all come from on earth is the point of him giving these specific there; others are of African origin and so on. However, commitments if they are to be broken? when I read in the newspapers, as I have done in the Here is another one. The Minister wrote to me on past few days, about a survey showing that people of 12 December 2011, saying that the case in question Pakistani origin feel more British than anybody else in would be decided by the end of that month. By my the country, I wonder how long it will last, given that calculation, we are into July 2012: no decision on that, the immigration service treats them as heartlessly, after a promise by the Minister. ineffectively, ineffectually and inefficiently as it does today. Richard Fuller: I am very grateful to the right hon. I have dealt with Home Secretaries ever since I entered Gentleman for recounting stories that I think a number the House in 1970, but I do not deal with this Home of us hear in our constituency surgeries. I am a new Secretary because she is so arrogant that, unlike any Member, having joined the House in 2010, but does he, other Home Secretary with whom I have corresponded, like me, scratch his head at the number of constituents she will not touch an individual immigration case. For who have come to this country and have been waiting example, Douglas Hurd, among many other Tory Home for many years for their cases to be resolved? What Secretaries with whom I have had dealings, would not would he say, on reflection, about the attitude of the only deal with cases himself but, if I asked to see him last Government in dealing with such cases as expeditiously about a case, which I rarely did, would immediately as he is requesting this Government to do? agree to see me. On one occasion, a man under a deportation notice said to me, “Let me see the Home Secretary so that he can tell me to my face why he is Sir Gerald Kaufman: I would be the first to say that it deporting me.” Douglas Hurd saw him, considered the was not good enough. I remember when Charles Clarke case and reversed the decision, and that man is now was appointed Home Secretary. I ran into him in the living happily in Manchester with his family, who are Members’ Lobby, from which my office is 40 seconds now considerably grown-up. That was what Tory Home away. I said, “I want you to come up to my office.” He Secretaries such as Douglas Hurd, William Whitelaw, did, and I showed him my special immigration file. I even Leon Brittan, were like. This Home Secretary said, “I cannot lift it out of the filing cabinet. I expect, believes she is too important to do what Douglas Hurd, under your Home Secretaryship, to be able to lift the Willie Whitelaw, Leon Brittan—and David Waddington file.” It was not as good as it should have been. There and others—did. were Ministers in that Government, including Charles Clarke and my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston Keith Vaz: In fact, given the abolition of the right of upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who were appeal, Members will want to go to Ministers much personally accessible if there was a problem I wanted to more often—that will delay Ministers and take up an discuss with them. enormous amount of their time—because there is nowhere However, I have to tell the hon. Member for Bedford else for them to go. They will be unable to go to the (Richard Fuller) that when I was gathering these cases appeals system; they will have to go to Ministers. to present to the House this afternoon, I had to use two files because my filing cabinet is now so full that I have Sir Gerald Kaufman: I accept that completely, but if to divide the cases into two, so that my secretary can lift my right hon. Friend will forgive me for apparently one file or the other. I am not saying that it was paradise being patronising, he should not hope for too much under the Labour Government by any means; what I from that process—in so far as it is a process. am saying—I do not want to patronise the hon. Gentleman, It is not simply that the policy is a hard, harsh policy; but I do have the experience—is that things are far individual cases are dealt with with a level of incompetence worse now. that would not be tolerated in pretty well any other area Let me give one more example of a constituent whom of activity. For example, last week the Minister for the Home Secretary wrote to me about. Immigration sent me a telephone number for a constituent to use when his DNA test had been completed—and it Mr Winnick: Will my right hon. Friend allow me? was completed successfully, I might say. The telephone number was wrong. That came from the Minister’s office, and with his signature. The Minister sometimes Sir Gerald Kaufman: I will always give way to my wonders why I insist on having my cases dealt with by a hon. Friend. Minister. The answer is that the UK Border Agency is an agency, and a Minister’s signature on a letter is what Mr Winnick: The Home Affairs Committee was critical a Member of Parliament has the right to have. We have of the Labour Government at the time, although the only two rights: freedom of speech, within procedure, in situation was not as bad as it is now. But of course it this House; and access to Ministers. If we do not have was the last Labour Government who brought back the those, we might as well not be here. right of appeal. 951 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 952

Sir Gerald Kaufman: Of course it was, and they did so Sir Gerald Kaufman: She would be welcome. under pressure from a lot of us, including my hon. I have of course had several wedding cases, like other Friend and me. One of the problems, to which I will hon. Members who have had similar experiences. I had come in a moment, is that even now the right of appeal a case the other day of a woman with a doctorate who of itself may not necessarily provide a solution to the wanted her mother to come from Pakistan for her problem. graduation ceremony. I wrote to the Minister. When I really get the bit between my teeth, I do not simply write Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): a letter and put it in the post; we actually use fax or Will my right hon. Friend give way? e-mail—we have adopted these modern devices to try to get things speeded up. However, the mother of the lady Sir Gerald Kaufman: If I may, I will give a further concerned never got to her graduation ceremony. That example, and then of course I will give way to my hon. is a lack in both their lives. What kind of human beings Friend. are they in the Border Agency that they do not take into account things of the heart and things of sentiment? A woman came to see me recently saying that she had That is what troubles me most about this issue. I also been to the Border Agency office at Dallas Court, in have a case of somebody who wants to come as a living Salford, and was told by a man called Ken that it was kidney donor to a relative here. He has applied twice. pointless for her to apply for indefinite leave to remain The first time he was turned down—a living kidney because she would be refused. She then asked him what donor!—and he has now applied again. I would be very she was supposed to do. He told her to go to her interested to see what response I get this time. Member of Parliament. I wrote to the Home Secretary to ask what I was supposed to do, given that the Border One of the consequences of the way in which immigration Agency had told her that any application from her administration is making a misery of the lives of many would be refused. I have yet to receive a reply to that of my constituents is that before they come to me, or letter, which I wrote on 21 May. I tabled a question simultaneously with coming to me, they go to solicitors. about it and was told that a reply had been sent, but I I want to say this here and now: we have in the city of have not received one. What on earth is a Member of Manchester some of the most predatory and greedy Parliament supposed to do when a Border Agency solicitors. It is an utter disgrace. They take up a case, do official says that they have to solve their constituent’s nothing about it and then send the constituent to me to problem? Let me make it clear: if I were allowed to see whether I can sort it out. I wish that something solve these problems, I would happily do so, and life could be done to deal with these greedy thieves, who would be a great deal more tranquil for a lot of my deal with people who do not have much money anyhow. constituents. We do not have affluence in my constituency; we have deprivation. That is why, in cases such as that which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East spoke Seema Malhotra: Does my right hon. Friend agree about, involving somebody coming for a wedding being that the success rate of appeals against refusals of turned down, the advice is not to appeal—that would family visitor visas underlines concerns about the quality take month upon month—but to make a new application. of initial decision making? For example, in 2010 almost That was what I was advised in the case of the young 10% of family visit visas were issued after an appeal had woman with the 72-year-old grandmother, but that been lodged. Any conversation about the removal of a would have cost them a lot of money. They do not have right of appeal should be on the back of evidence that that money: they have already spent it once. no decisions are being overturned. I welcome the opportunity of today’s debate, because I feel so utterly frustrated on behalf of my constituents— Sir Gerald Kaufman: My hon. Friend is perfectly good, decent people, who want to live family lives, but right; indeed, her intervention brings me to my next who are prevented from doing so—and by a Government point, concerning visits. who are so utterly incompetent. If the Home Secretary One of the things about my Muslim constituents in was so busy that a person like me was just too trivial for particular—but not only my Muslim constituents—is her to deal with, because she was pursuing other, valuable that they have a very strong sense of family. I get case and useful policies, I might just accept that, egoist after case of somebody wanting to come here as a though I am. However, we have had information this wedding guest but is turned down; and even with the week that, because of her cuts, Greater Manchester right of appeal, the appeal process would be far longer police force says that it will not be able to cope with than the period until the date of the wedding. riots, if there are any this summer—and there might well be: constituents were talking to me about their fear I raised one case in Prime Minister’s questions—the of this at the weekend. I feel very strongly indeed about only question I have asked this Prime Minister—which many of the across-the-board policies that this Government involved a young woman in my constituency who wanted pursue, but one that strikes right at the heart of good, her 72-year-old grandmother to come to her wedding. decent, family people is their immigration policy and its Her grandmother was turned down, one of the reasons administration. It is about time it was changed. being that if she came here, she would try to get a job. Seventy-two years old; never left Pakistan in her life; Several hon. Members rose— cannot speak English; unemployment in my constituency at 10.7%—and this cunning old lady was going to twist Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I am her granddaughter’s wedding into an opportunity to get aware that we are due to start the next item at 4 o’clock. a job. Owing to the numbers who wish to catch my eye, I suggest a limit of around eight minutes, which should Mr Winnick: Perhaps by becoming an MP. enable us to get everybody in. 953 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 954

2.35 pm UK used to be seen as a beacon of liberty for asylum seekers. We are making changes in that regard, and I am Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): It is a pleasure to not sure that all those changes are right. listen to the contributions to this debate from both sides of the House and to make my own. I do so as someone I welcome fast-track detention as a policy, but I say who has been an immigrant most of his life—I left the to the Minister that if we are going to take people country in 1986, before coming back to seek to represent through a process quickly, let us assume that each of the good people of Bedford and Kempston in 2004—and them has a valid case. In the short period that they have, as a son of Bedford. Bedford is probably the most let us give them the best counsel, the best lawyers and ethnically diverse, multicultural town in the country, the best psychiatric help, so that we can make that and I am extraordinarily proud to be its representative. evaluation according to the highest standards that people I also speak in this debate as a full supporter of this expect from a free society such as the United Kingdom. Government’s efforts to restore confidence in our immigration system. Nicola Blackwood: Does my hon. Friend agree that it Mr Deputy Speaker, you rightly pointed out at the is important to take into account the possibility that beginning of the debate that we would have the opportunity those who go through that process might have been the to debate not only the estimates, but the specifics of the victims of torture, and that we should implement rule Home Affairs Committee’s report. If I may, however, I 35 effectively? would like to move in a slightly different direction and review the morality of the decisions we make about Richard Fuller: Absolutely. I agree with what my hon. immigration, which have led to us spending £1 billion a Friend says about being aware of that. Some Members year and involving 12,000 people in an apparatus to might have heard, at the meeting held to discuss a ensure that our borders are secure and that people’s report on fast-track detention, about the refugee from confidence in immigration is restored. I say that because Uganda who had had to stand in a queue in an open the situation we are now in is a consequence of the room and explain to an immigration officer how he had policies and actions taken over a long period, and it has been raped, and why he was claiming asylum. We must grown over time. If one looks at the scale of the issue in bring to an end such unfair and ineffective processes if terms of immigration control, at the longevity of its we are to restore our sense of decency. relevance and also, if I may say so, at the arrogant The policy has also led to the detention of the innocent. dismissal of the issue for so long, one can see the How did we manage to set up a policy that results in context in which we are evaluating the UK Border children being put into prison? What on earth were the Agency, which is essentially a child of those circumstances previous Government thinking when they permitted and those facts. that to happen? Why do we continue to keep pregnant It is important for us to look at the reasons why women in detention? The Independent Monitoring Board’s concerns about immigration reached such a high level report on Yarl’s Wood stated that it wanted the policy and why we are devoting such substantial resources to on the detention of pregnant women to be reviewed, immigration control. Was it a matter of purpose or a and that, in the interim, detention should be the last matter of incompetence over a number of years, and resort. However, according to information that I have who is to blame? Should we blame the bureaucrats and received from Yarl’s Wood Befrienders, there were cases the agents, or should we blame the political masters? I of women who were 35 weeks pregnant being removed do not wish to get into the commentary by Andrew from Yarl’s Wood last month. I point this out to the Neather from a couple of years ago about the last Minister not because I am ashamed of what he is Government’s deliberate policy to make the UK a doing—I am proud of what he is doing to control multicultural society or the fact that they were not immigration—but to illustrate how far we have allowed straight with the British people about that, but it strikes our morality to be debased by losing control over the at our understanding of the context in which we will system. now ask for decisions to be made by this Home Secretary Let me deal with detention without trial. This and this Minister for Immigration. country is supposed to be the home of habeas corpus, My general feeling, being a new Member of Parliament, yet to my simple way of thinking we seem to be ignoring is this. How on earth did we get into this position, where that when dealing with people who come here for so many of my constituents come to me with such immigration purposes. Studies show that there are 52 heart-wrenching stories of how their lives have been people in our immigration detention centres who have eviscerated by this country’s utter incompetence, over been detained for more than a year, and 16 who have a long period, in sorting out its immigration? It been detained for more than two years. I understand the hurts me in my heart to have to look at people who process issues, and I am sympathetic to the Minister on have suffered torture, had to flee their own countries those, but if I want to hold my country to the highest and had to live under the wire of suspicion having to standards, I cannot be satisfied unless the practice of deal with not being able to guarantee that they can detention without trial is brought to a conclusion. Will make a living while the system works out what should the Minister consider introducing a maximum detention happen with their lives. It pains me, as a member of our period for people being detained under the immigration country, to think what that says about the United rules? Kingdom. Will the Minister also ensure that the Home Office In the short time I have, let me take hon. Members implements its own policies thoroughly? The Government through a couple of those points. The term “asylum have rightly said that they want to introduce a better seeker” used to be a badge of honour, but now we take process for people who have survived torture, who, it to be a token of shame to be bandied about in the according to the rules, are not deemed suitable for tabloids and used as a reason for making excuses. The fast-tracking or detention. To avoid detention, however, 955 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 956 such people are supposed to have their evidence to My second point is one that I am sure many hon. hand. The problem with that policy is that it is very Members will be familiar with from their constituencies. hard for them to have that evidence to hand when they It relates to cases in which a woman—it is usually, but are assessed. It takes time to get it together. The pamphlet not always, a woman—has been deceived by a partner from Medical Justice, “The Second Torture”, gives and been abandoned the day after he is granted indefinite 50 examples of people who have suffered torture but leave to remain. Under the previous Government, after who have not been permitted to follow the appropriate a long struggle, I managed to persuade the then Minister process because the Home Office is not fulfilling its that such women should get a proper response when obligations. they requested information on their husbands’ immigration Many hon. Members have talked about individual status and on what the Home Office was going to do constituency cases of people who have lived under these about their situation. I got an agreement on that, and policies and been in hiding. A gentleman who came to for a very short time, Ministers would write not only to my office had been here since 1996. He had sought an me to tell me what was happening with the case, but to opportunity to stay in this country, and received it in the women who had complained. That has now stopped. 2011, but the delays meant that he had been unable to I put it to the Minister that reinstating that practice see his terminally ill grandfather. I also met two constituents would a much more effective means than the “dobbing-in” who had fled Zimbabwe. It is not easy for anyone who system on the Home Office website, because those flees from Zimbabwe to get their documents from that women have specific information about their cheating country, so of course their documents will be false. spouses. He should give them the respect of a full When the marks of torture and shackles are still clearly response to their inquiries. He should also follow up visible on their legs, however, that should be sufficient those inquiries. In my view, it would be perfectly possible evidence in itself. I ask my Minister to sort out this mess under the immigration rules to curtail the leave of on immigration, and to seek to reassert the highest husbands who had behaved in the way that I have principles of British justice, British fairness and British described, on the grounds that their presence in the UK compassion. would not be conducive to the public good, particularly if—as is often the case—they had a record of being 2.44 pm vicious and violent towards their spouses. I would be really grateful if the Minister made that commitment Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): In addressing the today. I think that my request is fairly straightforward, subject of this debate, we must always remember that it and reinstating that practice would go with the grain of involves families, and that is what I shall concentrate on what he has been saying about using intelligence. today. Those families often pay huge fees. The £1,800 that it will cost a spouse to get settlement in this country My next point is about the new immigration rules, is 10% of the income that the sponsor needs for the which are due to come into force next week. I remember, spouse to qualify. There is a lot of money involved, and when I was director of the Joint Council for the Welfare those people have a right to a decent service. At the of Immigrants, getting a telephone call from a country moment, however, they are not getting it. solicitor who said, “I’ve got this person here and I’ve I readily admit that the problem is not new; it has not got the Immigration Act in front of me, and it refers to developed under this Government. Indeed, when I was these things called the immigration rules. What are first elected in 1997, I remember discovering the antecedent they?” I told him, and I felt rather scared that that of the controlled archive. It was in a room in the bottom person thought he was qualified to give immigration of a building in Croydon, where the air was so poisonous advice. Actually, he was being honest. He was trying to that staff could not go in. It contained a huge heap of find out the best advice to give his client, but—as other files that had been amassed there, and nobody knew hon. Members have pointed out—there are solicitors what they were. So this is a long-standing problem. who are not in the least bit honest. We need to address the problems of inefficiency and Actually, even the honest solicitors are going to find the bad ways in which the system works, and I want to these new immigration rules completely incomprehensible. use the debate to make a series of specific requests of There is no statement of changes in the immigration the Minister. Even though he and I do not agree on the rules; they are not numbered; there are typographical entirety of the policy, I believe that he will be able to and other errors in them. I do not agree with their meet those requests. The first relates to dealing with content, but if I were the Minister, I would say, “We legacy cases. At the moment, all the cases involving aren’t going to bring them into force until we have done those who are to be granted indefinite or discretionary them properly.”Frankly, they are not proper at present. leave have to be checked by security and by the police I would like the Minister simply to say that he will not national computer—and quite right, too. Unfortunately, bring them into force until he has got rid of the errors. I when the UK Border Agency asks for the information, pray against them and hope he will not introduce them, further checks have to be carried out, and photographs, but from his own point of view, if he does not get them vignettes and biometrics have to be obtained. That right, he will make much more work for his officials, process often takes so long that the security clearance, who will be constantly subject to representations and which last only three months, has expired by the time it appeals because of the confusion that arises. Speaking has been completed. I ask the Minister to instruct his as someone who has dealt with these issues for some 30 staff to grant leave in such circumstances none the less. years, I have to say in the context of today’s discussion When the problem is the result of inefficiency in the about the administration of the UK Border Agency system and involves further rounds of checks and further that if the Minister persists in implementing these rules delays, let us not make his staff carry out those further at this point—irrespective of whether they are the right checks and go through those further delays, using up thing to do in the long term—he will create much more time and capacity that they do not have. unnecessary work for his people. 957 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 958

John McDonnell: Like me, my hon. Friend has prayed outcome. Making the right decision at the outset is key, against the rules. Today is not the time to debate them as is ensuring that the right information is supplied by in any detail, but does she agree that the Government applicants. should now give us the opportunity to debate the rules My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford East thoroughly on the Floor of the House? (Mr Ward), who is no longer in his place but will return shortly, highlighted the importance of intelligence, and Fiona Mactaggart: I think it would be helpful to do I certainly support what he said. When people come to so, but in a way that is not the point here. The point is MPs with intelligence about the activities of individuals that if the Minister accepts that there are errors in the who they think are here illegitimately, feedback is essential draft—I know that they are errors and not deliberate—he so that constituents can see that some action has been should take the opportunity to withdraw the rules until taken as a result. I appreciate the difficulties associated they can be remedied, to ensure that the immigration with data protection when providing feedback that is system is properly administered. Given the problems of specific to an individual case, but we need to ensure that administration—the queues at Heathrow and other issues, feedback is provided in some shape or form. and the problem with posts overseas where we have had On correspondence between the MPs and the UKBA, good reports from the independent chief inspector contrary to what the right hon. Member for Manchester, responsible for entry clearance, highlighting that the Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) said, my experience suggests wrong decisions have been made—perhaps the Minister that things have improved. They are not perfect, but could do something about them. there is no doubt about the improvement, and my staff One thing I have learned from my long involvement would confirm that. I no longer experience the sort of in these issues is that the biggest problem is trying to get thing that happened back in 1997, when many people I the Home Office administration to do what it says on saw in my surgery had been in the UK for perhaps the tin—to do what the rules say to make sure that the 10 years, yet their status had still not been determined. administration is effective and efficient. It is not, and it That is changing, which does not mean that things are has not been for decades. The simplest thing to do perfect. would be to try to drive out unnecessary processes and What MPs do quite successfully is to use individual to use the people subject to immigration control as cases to identify areas with a pattern of poor performance. allies in making the system more efficient. The vast I will not reel off a long list of individual cases, but I majority of people who are trying to join their families shall refer to one case of a family—I shall call them Mr here or to visit Britain are trying to do the right thing. If and Mrs J—who were granted visas on appeal in February we can work in a way whereby the people trying to do last year in Colombo, but who have still not received the right thing can help to make the system more them. I do not know whether a specific problem in efficient, we could envisage a system in which not Colombo has caused that to happen, but if such cases everyone was subject to the degradation—frankly, it is help to identify an issue in a particular mission, I hope degradation—that is a product of the gross inefficiency that the Government would respond. and bureaucracy of that system. I have made some specific proposals, and if the Fiona Mactaggart: May I assure the right hon. Minister were to say yes to them today, we could take a Gentleman that this is not just specific to Colombo? couple of little steps in that direction. Many more are This pattern is common; I have a number of such cases needed. in Islamabad, for example. Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention, 2.53 pm which shows that it is essential for us collectively to identify such problems; we might believe that these are Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I am individual cases, but when the feedback comes in from pleased to have the opportunity to make a few short all MPs, we see that the issue is a much wider one. points in the debate. My first is about the structural A number of Members have referred to data. Clearly, changes taking place within the UK Border Agency. without strong data, it is difficult to determine whether Does the Minister have strong views about these proposals? policy is effective. I greatly welcome the fact that, following In his view, will they make a significant contribution to pressure from the Liberal Democrats on an issue that making UKBA an organisation or agency that is fit for we have been running with for a number of years, exit purpose? He will be aware of the specific changes to checks will be reintroduced. Ultimately, that is the only operational areas, with specific directors and cross-cutting way to secure high-quality data that can effectively directorates being established. inform debate. The Select Committee on Home Affairs has played a On the problem of backlogs, I am sure the Minister central role in tracking developments at UKBA over will have received the briefing from the Immigration recent years. I refer briefly to the 15th report published Law Practitioners Association, which many of us, too, in November last year. That report rightly identifies have received for today’s debate. The briefing refers to initial decision making as central to much of what we the definition of a review, and it challenges the UKBA are debating and covers appeals, which are clearly a statement that reviews have been carried out in respect two-way process. Yes, officials may well make wrong of all asylum backlog cases. That might involve a decisions, but it is equally clear from the information I definitional issue involving what constitutes a review. A have received that appeals are often successful because paper review may involve no contact with either the the information was not supplied correctly the first time legal representatives or the individual who is the subject round. The appeal was not based on a decision, but was of the review. In any event, the ILPA is concerned about one in which supplementary information led to a positive whether every case has been reviewed. 959 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 960

I do not know whether the Minister was quoted Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and for Manchester, Gorton accurately when he was reported to have said: (Sir Gerald Kaufman) and my hon. Friend the Member “The UK has been forced to launch a global charm offensive for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). to convince foreign students it is not against immigration”. The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon The quotation comes from a BBC report headed “Please (Nicola Blackwood) raised the issue of compliance with come to UK”. The Minister is shaking his head, so it rule 35. I have met representatives of people whom I appears it that is not an accurate representation of what would describe as constituents, because they have been he said. Whether it is or not, however, I should like him detained in my constituency, who have been victims of to tell me whether the capacity exists to make what I torture and whose circumstances have been affected accept is a difficult distinction between students who, deleteriously by their detention. That continues. Hunger having applied to attend a college here quite legitimately, strikes are currently taking place in detention centres. find that between their application and their arrival the People who have come here to seek asylum as a result of college has been shut down—for perfectly legitimate torture and the loss of human rights have been denied reasons—and has taken their money but will not give it, have been locked up, and are now refusing food. them what they wanted, and those who are not students Some are in a serious condition. but have colluded to come here for purposes other than The right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington study. It would be helpful to be able to distinguish such (Tom Brake) mentioned the detention of children. The people from students who fall foul of the rules through independent monitoring board produced a report about no fault of their own. Heathrow’s short-term holding facilities at the beginning of the year. I pay tribute to the volunteers on the board Mr Winnick: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman for their excellent work and the commitment that they was going to mention this, but may I put to him the demonstrate. The report made a range of recommendations. question that I put earlier to his hon. Friend the hon. It said that the children’s short-term holding facilities Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward)? If he and his were a disgrace. Children had to witness the detention party believe that the appeals system is right for visitors, and forced deportation of people—scenes that no child what input, if any, is the coalition receiving from his should witness. I hope that the Minister will report that party on the issue? many of the board’s recommendations have now been implemented. Tom Brake: We have made written representations, Performing tasks such as controlling our borders and but the hon. Gentleman may not have heard something processing applications for asylum or for visas requires that I said earlier. The most significant thing that the staff to undertake that work. When they took office, the Government can do on behalf of everyone—the UKBA, Government decided to cut 8,500 Home Office jobs and the Government and, indeed, applicants—is ensure that 22% of the staff at the UKBA. That, has inevitably led the correct decisions are made the first time round. to massive queues at ports and airports, weaker security, The ILPA has drawn Members’ attention to changes huge backlogs of casework and, in some areas, an made in October 2010 to the policy on suitability for almost non-existent Customs operation. Last year, my detention. It alleges that conditions have worsened hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella considerably, especially for people with serious medical Creasy)—who is not in the Chamber now—asked the conditions. Has the Minister had any dialogue with the Government to explain the rationale of the cuts and UKBA on the subject, and is he satisfied that the rules how they had been implemented in the Department. It ensure that a person’s health can be taken into account? seems that a head count was taken and a percentage cut was made with no real management. What we are I shall not go into my final point in any great detail, seeing now is virtual panic management, in terms of because it has already been raised in the context of both control of the borders and the case load itself. HC 194 “Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules”. Concern has been expressed not just about typographical Let me give one stark example. I have constituents errors, but about instances in which the understanding who work at Heathrow, and sometimes anonymous of the rules may have been different from what their letters are pushed through my door. I found the latest intention now appears to be. The issue is too detailed among my correspondence last weekend. It states: for the Minister to respond now, but I hope that he will “I am writing to you anonymously as identifying myself will be able to clarify the Government’s position. I know cause me to get into trouble with my employers. that he has the relevant documentation. I want to bring to your attention that over the course of the last few weeks, on at least six separate occasions, UKBA officers I think that the coalition Government have made at Heathrow Airport have missed disembarking subjects who are progress, particularly, I am pleased to say, on the issue of interest to the security services for terrorism matters. These of child detention, which was mentioned earlier. However, I subjects are commonly referred to as SX subjects. They should accept that they still have a considerable distance to go. have been identified upon presentation of their passport to UKBA officers and then referred on to the security service and police, but this has not happened. 3.4 pm This comes at a time when UKBA have had to draft in officers from different areas to make up the shortfall in frontline staff, John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Given following the recent political and media pressure regarding queue that Heathrow is in my constituency, along with the two times. Unfortunately they have had to use staff with little or no detention centres of Harmsworth and Colnbrook, dealing training (such as MOD police and office staff) and in some cases with these issues constitutes the daily work of my office, bring back people who retired many years ago and are very out of not just during the day but into the night and at touch with modern working practices. It is inevitable that with weekends, because, like every other Member’s office, we these elastoplast measures, mistakes are going to happen.” are inundated at the moment. That was reflected in the I receive such reports from staff regularly. When the speeches of my right hon. Friends the Members for Minister and I met representatives of the Public and 961 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 962

[John McDonnell] I am fearful about what might happen over the next few months because of the Government’s mismanagement Commercial Services Union last week, they made clear of this process. I criticised the last Government, but this that morale was at rock bottom, particularly at Heathrow. mess is even bigger than the mess was back then. Staff are being dragged in from all over the country. High-grade staff at grade 6 and grade 7 are working unlimited overtime just to plug the gaps. Where have 3.12 pm they been brought from? Customs. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) Let me give the House an example that we were given (LD): The issue we are debating is very important, last week. For the week beginning 30 April, the Felixstowe- and I thank the Home Affairs Committee for its based team responsible for ro-ro freight control was continuing work on it. I encourage it to continue sent to Heathrow; there was no replacement cover. The monitoring the work of the UK Border Agency. I am following week, the Felixstowe-based team responsible also grateful to the Minister for his active engagement for general maritime and general aviation controls at with this issue, and with me as a constituency MP when small ports and airports was reassigned to Heathrow. I have brought cases to his attention or to the attention That meant that one of eight detection teams, which of his staff. were already understaffed by 30%, was completely absent. My general analysis is somewhat different from that I think that the UKBA is in turmoil. In addition to the of the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton failure to control our borders because of lack of staff, (Sir Gerald Kaufman), as I do not think that under the we are putting the country at risk, just as the Olympics last Government we were anywhere near nirvana in are about to take place and we will have the largest respect of immigration and asylum cases. The situation influx of people into the country for decades. is considerably better now than it was under the last On the backlogs of immigration and asylum casework, Labour Government. This has been a huge and intractable the Minister will no doubt assure us that additional issue for the Home Office over many years. I am grateful staff are being taken on. We now hear that Serco has for the progress that has been made, but that does not offered its services free of charge for six months to mean that I in any way think the UKBA or the Government tackle some of this backlog. Some of us remember that have fully addressed all the problems. it was Serco incompetence—lost files and so forth—that caused most of the backlog that we experienced a Although we are talking about the UKBA, what we number of years ago. are actually talking about is people. I shall therefore The current situation is as follows: chaotic management; refer to some people. First, I shall mention the two staff being bussed or flown in from all over the country people in my office who every day try to unravel the who are either untrained or not adequately trained to knots of other people’s family lives when dealing with do the border control job; and a backlog of immigration asylum and immigration cases. Magali Tang and James and asylum casework building up at the Home Office. Harper are wonderful public servants—working for me The Government response is to try to change the rules, as an MP—and they are hugely valued by our constituents. which will not deter people from making applications at When I last checked a year or two ago, I was either first all. It will also not deter people from wanting to make or second in the league table of Members who brought some form of appeal, but, as Members have said, the Home Office-related immigration and asylum constituency appeal will come to MPs, rather than go through the issues to the authorities. I have no idea where I am in process. We will be inundated, therefore. We will be the league table now, and that does not matter, but I do inundated with the pleas and cries of people just for know that a large volume of such work gets done. Some fairness, so that their families can visit them and they 40% of the work that comes before my constituency can live and celebrate normal family life, including office is Home Office-related, and we try to give a good weddings and other celebrations. service. We have reached the stage where Public and Commercial Achieving that depends on the individuals at the Services Union members are balloting on industrial other end of the process as well—on the personality of action because their morale is so low. They feel that the account manager. I pay tribute to Claire Shacklock they have gone through a pay freeze for a number of who previously did the job for us in Southwark, when years and are now faced with intolerable pressures— Southwark was an area on its own, and I pay tribute to including bullying and victimisation—from management. her successor, Helen O’Brien, who is the account manager They feel that they are being provoked to do whatever in Lambeth, Bexley, Greenwich and Southwark. After they can to defend themselves, and what they can do is the handover, it took a little while for us to get the take industrial action to highlight this issue and force communication established and working well. It is now management and Ministers to the negotiating table to working well, and her staff are beginning to understand recognise the realities. what we expect and are beginning to deliver. That More staff are needed, and they are needed required us to be quite gruff with them, however. We immediately—the Government are recruiting some, had to tell them what they needed to do and make them but not enough. A change in the industrial relations understand the urgency of some of the cases. atmosphere is also needed, as is an end to the privatisation I asked my constituency team to tell me the three key and an acceptance that people need to be rewarded issues. The first of them was post-study work visas. This for the work they do. There must be respect for those at is what my team said: the front line. They must be listened to; people such as “This route is being closed and so everyone has applied at once, my constituents who send anonymous letters, because and this has thrown the system into chaos. We have had between they know no other way of whistleblowing or raising 15-20 cases in the last month of people who have been waiting issues without being victimised by management, must around 3 months, when the published waiting time is 1 month. be listened to. They are stuck as they can’t work and some people are losing 963 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 964 accommodation/job offers because of the delay. Why did the encourage the Government to continue to be relentless UKBA not see this coming and what are they doing to make sure in such cases. I want to encourage more students to the backlog is cleared quickly?” come to this country and I think the Government The second issue was reconsideration requests, which understand the benefits of that—the universities and my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and colleges certainly do—but that cause will not be helped Wallington (Tom Brake) mentioned. My team said: if bogus colleges continue. “Currently, when people make ‘in country’ applications for My penultimate point is to ask whether we can please leave to remain and these are refused without a right of appeal, not send people back to places such as Sri Lanka if they applicants can ask the UKBA to ‘reconsider’ the decision. This are Tamils whose life and liberty are likely to be at risk? was always an informal process but it was accepted that in general I still think that the Home Office is not sensitive enough the UKBA would reconsider a case once. It seems that a backlog of reconsideration requests has built up and now the UKBA are in such cases and I want a review of cases where there saying they are reviewing how they deal with these requests. What are historic and current conflicts. does this mean? Are they going to stop reconsidering cases”— Finally, I would like to help people to see the good or define what a “reconsideration” is? side of some of the work done by those people with us. “If so, they need to say so to people clearly. In one case we had On Saturday, I went to the wedding of Sheku Jalloh and recently, a woman who had been told her reconsideration request Raphaëlle de Joffrey. Sheku came to see me when he had been received later received a letter from Serco saying that was in his teens as a Liberian asylum seeker and refugee. according to the UKBA, she had no basis of stay and should He has now married a Swiss graduate whom he met leave immediately.” here, they have settled down and they are a good news The left hand and the right hand were clearly not story. There are lots of good news stories— co-ordinated, which was very “confusing” as the Serco letter Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. “didn’t refer to her reconsideration request, which she felt was still outstanding. If the UKBA are going to stop reconsidering, 3.20 pm they must surely explain this clearly to people, not just get Serco Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) to send them letters telling them to go home.” (Lab): I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this I hope it does not stop reconsidering; I hope there is a important debate on the work of the UK Border Agency. reconsideration process, and we know what it is and I am a member of the Home Affairs Committee and, as how it works. our Chair has said, we continue to scrutinise the work The third issue my team raised was the UKBA website, of the agency. I should point out that, although I might which talk about the agency, it cannot and should not be separated from the Home Office. We have been very “despite recent re-modelling, is still not well organised or user keen as a Committee to stress that point through our friendly, and constituents regularly report this to us. It needs to use clearer, non-technical English wherever possible and be better reports. laid out. The DirectGov website is a good example of how a In our most recent report, we drew attention to the website can be user friendly, as is NHS Direct (medical advice worryingly high levels of decisions that are overturned online). There are always links saying ‘do you need help with on appeal, in which applicants successfully challenge x....if so click here…’, ‘was this what you were looking for?’…that the initial decisions made by UKBA. Some right hon. sort of thing, and the English is very good and accessible. The and hon. Members have talked about that this afternoon. UKBA website lags a long way behind these websites.” I intend to concentrate on one particular aspect of that It surely cannot be beyond the wit of Government, with question: women’s asylum cases and the fact that the all their technical advisers and expertise, to get that initial decisions are not always the right ones. sorted out. Please can it be sorted out soon? UKBA rightly wants decisions to be made as quickly I would now like to make a few points of my own. As as possible, and of course I support that, but there is has been said, there are still a huge number of really always a balance to be struck between speed and quality rubbish legal advisers and solicitors. I am weekly, if not in the decision-making process and I am not sure that daily, rescuing people from having to pay considerable we always get it right. I remain seriously concerned sums that they do not have for so-called advice, often about the quality of decision making on women’s asylum bad, telling them to take action they do not need to take claims at the initial stage. Many women claiming asylum and that will not produce any positive results. That in the UK are fleeing gender-based persecution and gives them false hope. They are also often asked to pay have experienced sexual violence, and we know that for a service that is never given because the case in rape is all too often used as a weapon of war. In 2010, of question is either not dealt with at all or not soon the 18,000 people claiming asylum in the UK only a enough to be of any use. Please can the Office of the third were women, but the appeal rate at tribunal is Immigration Services Commissioner get a grip and do higher for women than for men according to the most its job properly? It is still not effective. It does not clamp recent Home Office figures that are available. down on bad advice; it tackles only crime and I am by no means suggesting that women should maladministration. That is not good enough. I should receive preferential treatment or that their claims should not have to be perpetually writing to these so-called take precedence, but it is important that they receive a solicitors or so-called advisers saying, “I want the money fair hearing and that there is recognition of the experiences to be given back to my constituent because you haven’t women have when they come to the UK and of those done anything.” That is a scandal and it needs to be they have had, including torture, and of how those addressed. experiences can differ from those of men. In order for The problem of so-called bogus colleges is not as bad that to happen, the Home Office and the UKBA need as it was but I am not persuaded that there are not still to make a number of changes, becoming more responsive some that do not produce the service they advertise. I and gender-sensitive in their work. I commend them for 965 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 966

[Bridget Phillipson] Scotland. I shall try to do it once again so that the House can more clearly understand. We occupy just the work they have done so far. They have worked with over a third of the landmass of the UK but we have Asylum Aid and other organisations to make some 8.4% of the population. We are one of the least densely important changes, but there is still much to do. populated parts of western Europe. Of course we need First, female interviewers and interpreters should be a different approach to immigration and our border available for women applicants. I know that that is agency, but will this Government consider any sort of meant to happen, but it does not always happen. Female policy that is regional or international within the UK? applicants are understandably reluctant to talk openly Not a bit of it. We have to experience the same decisions about experiences of sexual violence, but it can become and policy as the rest of the UK and that is utter and impossible if a man is in the room because a female total madness. interviewer or interpreter is not available. Sometimes, Our population reached 5.2 million in the course of women bring children with them to the initial interview last month, which is the highest population that Scotland or to follow-up interviews and it is often wholly has ever had. The Scottish Government issued a press inappropriate for them to be expected to discuss experiences release to welcome that fact. Could hon. Members of sexual violence in front of their children. imagine the UK Minister for Immigration ever putting The barriers mean that women do not always disclose out a press release welcoming the fact that the UK sexual violence at interview, and if they do so later or population was at an all-time high? That, more than submit additional evidence, it can be viewed by the anything, demonstrates the difference between Scotland UKBA as an attempt to be dishonest or to deceive. and the UK. Those barriers aside, trauma and the nature of the What do we want from the UKBA? We want it to go violence can make it exceptionally difficult for women away, basically. We need a specific Scottish agency to be fully open immediately with people who are which could serve our immigration priorities, our population strangers to them. A recent report by Women for Refugee necessities and our demographic needs. We have big Women has highlighted those problems. problems. Our population is going up, but we do not I would also suggest that the UKBA’s country of know the medium to long-term prospects. There was a origin information should be developed further to include fear only a few months ago that Scotland’s population additional information on the position of women might dip below the iconic 5 million mark for the first in-country. The agency has gender guidelines, but it is time since the mid-20th century. That would have been not always clear whether those guidelines and the country a disaster for us. We have an ageing population and a of origin information are followed as well as they could shrinking working population and we need people to be by decision makers. I also believe that it is important come to Scotland with specific skills and to meet specific that judges who sit on immigration tribunals should be requirements. offered appropriate training on gender-based persecution What the Government are doing to our universities is so that they fully understand the experiences of the chaotic and disastrous and I want them to stop. We women before them at tribunal. have more people coming to our universities from overseas I know that the Home Office wants to see a “right than the rest of the UK; 19% of the students at Scottish first time” approach. I agree and I hope that I have set universities come from overseas, as do 10% of the out some areas where I believe that that could be teaching staff. The competition for international students— supported. All asylum seekers deserve a fair hearing. the brightest and the best—is sensitive and fragile. The Many will have their applications legitimately refused, Government’s policies are deterring students from coming but they deserve that fair hearing. A considerable cost here and that is causing chaos for our universities. The to the taxpayer is associated with decisions that are not Minister for Immigration has heard that from Universities right first time and the National Audit Office has identified Scotland, the CBI, the National Union of Students in some of those costs. I believe that we could make Scotland and practically everybody who takes an interest. significant savings if we improved the quality of the I ask him just to stop it. Leave our universities alone. decision making at the initial stage. Allow us to continue to attract the brightest and the There is of course a human cost to the individual best. applicant, but making improvements to the decision-making process also makes economic sense. I hope that the Keith Vaz: Does the hon. Gentleman agree with the Government will carefully consider the changes that Committee’s recommendation that student numbers should can be made to bring about a system that is fairer not not be included in immigration statistics, because by just to the applicant but to us all, including the UK their very nature genuine students will come and study, taxpayer. then return?

Pete Wishart: Quite right—why are students considered 3.25 pm immigrants? They are here for only a few years. Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): We face particular issues with students at university, UKBA—the United Kingdom Borders Agency—might and I hope that the House will bear with me, as I should have a UK-wide remit, but it does not particularly serve like to try to explain what they are. We need to continue Scotland. In Scotland, we have a different range of to be a centre of excellence in Scotland. We have three issues, challenges and priorities and the UKBA cannot universities in the top 100 in ratings around the world. even start to deal with our priorities. Today, we have heard about the Higgs boson, whose We have issues to do with immigration and population, existence was proposed by Peter Higgs, an Edinburgh particularly concerning demography, and when I get to university professor, which shows the excellence of Scottish my feet I always try to set out why things are different in universities. Those places are centres of excellence because 967 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 968 we can attract the best and brightest, and we need to ultimate frustration experienced by ordinary Members continue to be able to do so. However, we cannot do so of Parliament who have to deal with the UKBA. A if the new immigration rules and UKBA policies are couple of weeks ago, we had a debate on article 8 of the implemented—and for what end? Students do not have European convention on human rights, and several recourse to public funds. They pay fees and maintenance, Members who attended that debate are here today. The and have minimal impact on public services. House indulged in the usual kickabout stuff about The benefits that we see in Scotland are not just marauding foreign rapists and murderers on every street financial, significant as they are—international students corner who go home to their state-funded apartment contribute £500 million to our economy. We gain so and get all their swanky lawyers to invent reasons for much by working with and learning from students from them to stay in the UK. However, we deal with the real, hundreds of countries who enhance our education system, mundane issues that are brought to our offices by our distinctive culture and Scottish society. We want to people who suffer as a result of trying to ensure that be at the forefront of the international marketplace for they can stay here. ideas and imagination. We want to continue to attract The UKBA’s job is quite simple: to stop people the brightest and best overseas academic talent to help coming to the UK who want to come to our shores—people build a smarter, wealthier and fairer Scotland. We want who should not be here should be kicked out—and to to welcome talented people to live, learn, work and frustrate as much as possible those who are trying to go remain here, but the proposals by the UK Government up the citizenship or immigration ladder. I have only a send out entirely the wrong message. They are already few minutes, but I want to mention two cases that I have being perceived negatively overseas, deterring prospective dealt with. One is quite a celebrated case that the students from applying to study across the UK, and Immigration Minister may remember and shows the that is particularly so in Scotland. type of case we have to deal with. It concerns a lovely UKBA is simply doing its job: making tougher rules guy called Swarthwick Salins, who lived in my constituency. and enforcing them ever more rigidly. Perhaps the Minister The UKBA, which was doing its job, looked into his for Immigration will confirm this, but I think that it is bank account, and found that instead of £800, there looking for a reduction of around 80,000 students was £740 there. There was no phone call to Swarthwick across the UK—that is the target—and by heck it is to say, “Listen, Mr Salins, there is an issue with your going to achieve it regardless of the collateral damage bank account. You’re £80 below the necessary level—this to our universities. If it is bad for universities, tough is a warning that you are £80 short.” The one and only luck. If we lose out on attracting the students we need course of action by the UKBA was to boot him out. for our economy and our institutions, too bad—UKBA That is the way it officiously applies the rules. has a job to do, and it is going to do it. Let me explain who Swarthwick Salins is. He is a If it bad for students who now have to be relatively PhD student from St Andrews university, he has three prosperous to come to the UK, for goodness’ sake they Scottish children, he is a strong member of his church should not be poor and destitute if they are fleeing and a loyal member of the community. A community oppression, because in that condition they will undoubtedly campaign was launched to ensure that Swarthwick Salins remain. Our treatment of failed asylum seekers who could remain in Perth and it was backed by practically cannot return to their country of origin because of fear everybody there. I would have paid the £80, and I would of persecution or oppression should shame all in this have put money on with the Minister, because I know House. There is almost positively a policy of destitution. that I would win the bet that he will never reduce How is the UKBA dealing with people who are here immigration to the numbers that he wants. legally? The Government want to reduce immigration from hundreds of thousands to tens of thousands. It ain’t Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does the going to happen. We live in an interconnected globalised hon. Gentleman accept that the vast number of people world. We are here in London. One third of the people in this country feel strongly about the question of failed who live and work in London come from outwith the asylum seekers and destitution, and provide food, UK. That is the type of world we live in. It is like King support and somewhere to live in churches, mosques Canute trying to hold back the tide to imagine for a and other places? I agree that it is an absolute disgrace minute that we are going to be able to deal with these that we expect people to live in complete destitution issues. What has immigration done for London, as until they have got through the relevant number of Monty Python would say? London is the most successful, years, which the Government propose to extend, before dynamic city in the world. Let us hear a little more they can get residence in this country. We need to be about the positive sides of immigration. Let us talk it humane about it. up. Let us see what we can do to try to encourage a good feeling about it, because the Minister is not going Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman is spot on. I see to reach his targets. Regardless of an immigration-obsessed those efforts in Scotland, particularly Glasgow, where Conservative Government giving massive resources to we have a number of failed asylum seekers. We cannot the UKBA, the issue will never be effectively addressed. return them to countries such as Iran, Afghanistan and Thankfully, in a few years, we will have control over Zimbabwe—it would be absurd to do so—and the and responsibility for our immigration policy in Scotland. policy of destitution that the Government have imposed We will do it differently. We will work in partnership on them is a disgrace. We in the House are rightly with the rest of the UK, but we will not kick people out appalled about the way in which we deal with them. for £80, we will not harass overseas students who want The people with whom we come into contact are to come and study in our universities, and we will deal those we have heard about from Members across the with immigration damn well better than the UKBA is Chamber, and a feature of the debate has been the doing just now. 969 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 970

3.36 pm summer’s experiments by the Home Secretary meant that warnings index checks were suspended 354 times. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): To follow on directly They were suspended on European economic area school from the nationalist argument that we have just heard, I groups of under-16s travelling by coach at juxtaposed presume that when Scotland is an independent country, controls, originally with the permission of Ministers. if it is an independent country, it will join the European The policy was then extended to sea ports and the Union. Membership of the European Union requires Eurostar, which Ministers were notified of, but from that all new members are fully signed up to Schengen. February 2011 the age restriction was completely lifted Consequently, there will be a border between Scotland without any degree of permission. The agency’s records and England, so the Scottish border agency will spend on the suspension of warnings index checks were extremely most of its time dealing with whether people from poor, as Mr John Vine has testified. The secure ID was England can go into Scotland. It is a nonsense. suspended 482 times between June 2010 and November A large number of right hon. and hon. Members have 2011, 463 of which were at Heathrow, the country’s spoken in the debate this afternoon. It is an oddity that busiest airport. the debate is on a set of reports in relation to the UK We understand that this was all supposedly because Border Agency, yet it is also about spending £11 billion the UKBA interpreted the Immigration Minister’s letter on the Home Office—a curiosity of the way that we do of 27 January 2011 as approval to lift the secure ID. He our financial expenditure in the House. We heard from believes that that was not his intention whatsoever. The my hon. Friends the Members for Slough (Fiona Home Secretary made clear her opposition to the moves Mactaggart) and for Hayes and Harlington (John being mooted on 13 April, yet it continued. This is McDonnell), and from the hon. Members for Bedford obviously a sign of an organisation in chaos. Indeed, (Richard Fuller) and for Bradford East (Mr Ward). the independent chief inspector’s report states that Most notably, the greatest panjandrum of the lot, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith ‘the language used in both the “Summer pressures” submission to Vaz) kicked us off, and my hon. Friend the Member for Ministers and the response provided’— Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson) in other words, by Ministers— spoke as well. “was not clear and as a result was open to misinterpretation… In his speech my right hon. Friend the Member for there was confusion amongst staff” Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) said one not least because the Home Secretary’s office note did thing to which I took exception. He referred to a not clearly define any of the terms being used. 72-year-old as being old. I am sure he thinks a 72-year-old I would like to refer to another report by the independent is not old but is just coming to the prime of their life. chief inspector, on border control operations at Heathrow terminal 3 from August to November 2011, the same Sir Gerald Kaufman: I would say that a 72-year-old is period covered by the Home Affairs Committee’s report. gradually approaching the prime of her life. The inspector identified even more worrying signs, first of an Chris Bryant: And wisdom is slowly descending upon “inconsistent application of border security checks”, her. and secondly of “completely inadequate” record keeping The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old in two thirds of the cases examined. That matters, Southwark (Simon Hughes), who is not in his seat but because all the references we have heard in the debate to who, I am sure, will be back in a moment, referred to paperwork further down the system being inadequate, the fact that a large part of the casework of many hon. poorly looked after, incomplete or disappearing into Members relates to the UKBA, and we heard the voice the black hole, or the Tardis, as my right hon. Friend of those Members in the Chamber this afternoon. It the Member for Leicester East referred to it, stem from was noticeable that only one Back-Bench Conservative inadequate record keeping at the beginning. However, Member made a speech in the debate, which is different the report found such inadequate record keeping not from previous occasions. The right hon. Member for only at terminal 3, but at Gatwick’s north terminal. Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) spoke on behalf In addition, the inspector found: of the Liberal Democrats. “The introduction of team based working in July 2011, coupled The role of the UKBA is to provide an immigration with a new shift working system and the amalgamation of immigration system that is efficient, effective, humane and as watertight and detection roles at Heathrow was far too much organisational as possible, and it must surely be an own goal if people change during the busiest time of the year at Heathrow.” can come in and out of our country or overstay, willy-nilly That goes to the heart of the point my hon. Friend the or, if the system is so complex that it is easy to circumvent Member for Hayes and Harlington made on how staff or utterly impossible for an ordinary sane person to morale can be kept up so that they do an effective and understand, or if the queues are so lengthy at our efficient job if they are trying to cope with so much airports or ports that the UK’s reputation as a place to change at the same time. Perhaps we are demanding too do business or as a place to come as a tourist is harmed, much of them. The inspector also found that all this or if it costs too much money to run. was In the motion that we are discussing, we are spending “complicated by staff reductions of 15% at Terminal 3”. £11,034,371,000. That is a significant amount of money We want secure borders, but it is difficult to provide and our constituents would want to make sure that it them if we do not provide enough resources to allow the was being spent well. job to be done properly. When I visited Stansted on As the various reports referred to in the debate—two Monday to see the operation there, staff working for of which are by the Home Affairs Committee—have the UKBA made it clear to me that all the new staff made clear, the UKBA has not had an easy time. Last who have been drafted in to help in the run-up to the 971 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 972

Olympics and through the games receive only three morning not a single e-gate was working, and I understand days of training. They are unable to do the full job that that they were not working at any point at all on Monday. is necessary and, consequently, there is a real security The fact that e-gates are not working effectively is a problem. In addition, the fact that they are suddenly significant problem across the estate and at several recruiting back from retirement people who were made different ports. When IRIS finally goes in September, redundant only last year makes it look as if they do not the real problem will be whether we have any automated really know what they are doing. system on which we can rely, so I should be grateful if The report also found that: the Minister commented on the future of automation. “The Agency was failing proactively to deal with absconders,” I have one final complaint in relation to the inspector’s and I really want to raise that issue with the Minister, report, because at Heathrow terminal 3 there was a because there is a serious problem with absconders, and 58% drop in the issuing of IS81 forms, on which a it is not just at terminal 3—although the report found passenger is told that they will be subject to further that it had increased there interrogation. That is important, as all too often in a “by 62% between 2009 and 2011.” simple desire to cut queues, we are cutting back on security, because staff are not able to do their job Indeed, not only did the figure for those absconding go properly. up, but the figure for people who were captured having absconded went down, falling from 40% to 16%, meaning There is a further problem in relation to foreign that during that period alone some 150 people national prisoners. Of the 5,012 who completed their absconded—and have not been found. sentences in 2010-11, 3,248 were removed, 471 were allowed to remain but the cases of 1,300—a staggering I raise the matter because I worry that the general figure—are still outstanding. Only 500 of those are level of absconders is rising throughout the country, so, detained. There are other unspecified issues with 20 of first, I should be grateful if the Minister said how many them and, as I said earlier, 27% of them—some 350—are people who have been told that they are no longer able just categorised as unknown issues. In other words, the to stay in this country are still in this country. Can he UKBA has next to no idea about what is happening pitch a figure? Is it 100,000, 150,000, 250,000? I suspect with those people or about the likelihood of moving that it is about 150,000. forward in a way that makes their lives easier or our Secondly, the Government and the UKBA have country more secure. absolutely no idea where many of those people may be, In addition, immigration tribunals overturn UKBA or whether they have left the country, and that must decisions a dramatic number of times—41% of appeals surely be a concern, so can the Minister confirm whether are lost by the UKBA. That is a significant problem. all absconders are added to the national police computer, Obviously, it delays people’s ability to get on with their either as wanted or with a local trace mark, so that lives and it is a significant additional expense for the when somebody pops up in another area it is possible to UKBA. How will the Minister tackle the problem of so track them down? If they are not, the UKBA is failing many appeals being lost at tribunal? in its task. I have a minor comment to make about the common I raise one other problem in relation to the independent travel area, also at Stansted. It was pretty clear that it inspector’s report, namely that of measuring queues. I would be easy for someone to negotiate their way noticed at Stansted that the UKBA starts measuring around without going through proper border controls, the length of a queue only from the moment at which having printed off a boarding pass pretending that they someone enters the terminal building, but the queues had flown in from Ireland when in fact they had flown often start long before the terminal building, and the in from somewhere else. I hope that the Minister will be time from the moment someone enters the terminal to able to close that loophole. their passport being dealt with is normally only 20 minutes, because the vast majority of the queue is My final point is that the Government are planning backed up way down a series of tunnels, on trains and, to cut staff at the UKBA by 5,300. I believe that that sometimes, on aeroplanes, so I am distrustful of the will make it phenomenally difficult for the agency to do figures for queuing times at Stansted. its job effectively. In particular, in the run-up to the Olympics, which everybody knew were coming along, we have already seen how difficult it has been to maintain Keith Vaz: I, too, went to Stansted, albeit at a different strong security and a decently short length of queue. time from my hon. Friend, and the problem is that, when British citizens return to their own country, they Lots of people have been flown in from different are held by airline officials just before they join the parts of the country as emergency measures in the escalators, all the way back to the plane, and that, when run-up to the Olympics, and the relevant people have they reach the immigration hall, half the kiosks are been prevented from taking holidays during the Olympics un-personned. and Paralympics. My concern is that the moment that is over, it will be phenomenally difficult for the UKBA, Chris Bryant: Yes, “un-personned”: very correct of without those resources, to get anywhere near doing its my right hon. Friend. job properly. We can complain about the UKBA, but if we do not give it the resources to do its job properly, our In addition, one of the biggest problems, which applies complaints are worth nothing. not only to Stansted but elsewhere, is that many staff who have been brought in to help in the run-up to the 3.52 pm Olympics, a known problem that is coming along the track, are not able to work with non-EU passengers, The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): I start and consequently the moment any arrive there is an by thanking the Home Affairs Committee for its reports enormous back-up. Further, when I was there on Monday and its Chairman for his introduction, which set the 973 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 974

[Damian Green] who will benefit from Britain. We want an immigration policy that reflects consensus about who should be able tone of this debate. That tone has largely been thoughtful; to come here and an immigration system that can oddly enough, there was more consensus that I might actually deliver it, with a legal framework that reflects have expected when the debate started. Parliamentary the will of Parliament while respecting our international scrutiny of Government Departments is crucial in ensuring legal obligations, and a system and a policy that make that they are delivering Government policy properly immigration work for Britain economically. and offering value for money. The Migration Advisory Committee recently published A huge number of points have been made, and I will a study of how we calculate the costs and benefits of deal with them in a moment, but I would like to start immigration. Its view is that the Government should with an overview of the UK Border Agency. The agency focus on the impact of migration on the welfare of has changed radically in recent months. Much of the residents rather than on the old assumption that because speech by the shadow Minister was devoted to the John immigration adds to GDP it strengthens the economy Vine reports of last year, which were, of course, important. and therefore, logically, the more immigration the better. That is why, in February this year, the Home Secretary This key insight of the MAC’s work gives us the basis told the House that the UK Border Force would split for a more intelligent debate and supports a more from the UKBA to become a separate operational selective approach to migration. The comprehensive set command with its own ethos of law enforcement, led by of reforms that we have introduced on work, students, its own director general and directly accountable to settlement and family have set the way forward for such Ministers. a system. Since then both the UK Border Force and the UKBA At the heart of the organisation of that system—the have done their different jobs in protecting the border subject of the Committee’s reports—lies our visa regime. and ensuring that Britain remains open for business, The UKBA administers one of the most competitive checking people travelling to the UK before they arrive— and efficient visa services in the world, ensuring that through visa checks, intelligence and the use of the tourists and other genuine visitors can travel to the UK, e-borders system. enjoy what our country has to offer, and then return In this climate of change, we all rightly expect the home. I should like to put some figures on this, because agency to continue to deliver. The work of the agency is it is often under-reported. In 2011, the agency processed crucial in controlling migration and protecting national over 2.5 million visa applications—a 3% increase on security. The Committee’s reports on the work of the 2010 and a 7% increase on 2009. The most recent set of agency have shown that, as with all organisations, there migration statistics—the hon. Member for Perth and is certainly room for improvement. Of course I acknowledge North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) should listen to this that, and the Government have accepted most of the after his claim that it is impossible to bring immigration Committee’s recommendations. down—showed that numbers of visa grants in every I have said previously to the Committee that the category are falling, apart from those for visit visas. agency is good in parts but needs to improve. That is Student visas are down by 21%, family visas are down why a transformation plan has been initiated by the by 16%, work visas are down by 8%, and visit visas are chief executive, Rob Whiteman, to address precisely the up by 9%. Those are the key figures in the immigration weaknesses identified by many right hon. and hon. debate. They demonstrate how the agency is delivering Members. Even if the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona the reductions in long-term immigration that we expect Mactaggart) does not necessarily agree with all the while not preventing valuable and genuine visitors from policies I implement, she would, as she said, like the coming to the UK. These include people from some of system to work properly, and I can assure her that that our key markets such as China and India, where we is the purpose of many of the changes that Rob Whiteman have twice, and in some cases three times, as many visa is making. I am grateful for the remarks by my right application centres as any of our competitors. hon. Friends the Members for Carshalton and Wallington But of course the public have perfectly reasonable (Tom Brake) and for Bermondsey and Old Southwark concerns about the number of migrants who continue (Simon Hughes), who said that at a constituency level to come here. The changes that we have already made their experience is of an organisation that is getting a are starting to have an impact, but we have always said bit better. That is clearly a step in the right direction. that it would take the full term of this Parliament to The agency faces a serious challenge—to reduce net achieve our objectives. As has been widely—I think migration while ensuring that migrants who do come universally—agreed in the debate, that is largely due to here are of the calibre we need to benefit the UK. As I an ineffective system that goes back to a time way have said from this Dispatch Box before, the immigration before this Government. It has taken a raft of tough debate is partly about numbers, but it should not be new policy measures merely to stop the steady rise in wholly about numbers. We have always been clear that net migration before we see it coming down. controlled, selective migration is good for the UK. The checks made by the UKBA represent the key Encouraging tourism is essential for the UK economy, tools in ensuring that our requirements are met and that and this will obviously be particularly true over the next our policies deliver what we expect. The agency now has few months as we welcome an unprecedented number a presence in 137 countries, and despite the considerable of visitors from around the world. logistical challenges involved in running this global Bringing down net migration and attracting the brightest operation, it routinely exceeds its service standard of and the best are not mutually exclusive objectives. We processing 90% of visa applications within three weeks. need to know that the right numbers of people are In 2011, it processed half the non-settlement visa coming here and that the right people are coming applications and two thirds of the business visa applications here—people who will benefit Britain, not just those within five days. It did so with a focus on quality 975 UK Border Agency4 JULY 2012 UK Border Agency 976 decisions and excellent customer service. I say gently sentence. Many Members raised the issue of those who that the sustained good performance of the agency’s are released from detention while awaiting deportation. visa service has perhaps escaped the Select Committee’s In only 30% of those cases is the decision made by the otherwise all-seeing eye. However, no discussion of the UKBA. The courts make the other decisions. work of the UKBA would be complete without The asylum legacy was perhaps the biggest bugbear acknowledging it. I hope that members of the Committee of hon. Members from all parts of the House. I sympathise agree. with them entirely. There are currently 80,000 cases in A number of issues have been raised, and I will start the asylum controlled archive. That is down 18,000 from with students. We are dealing with migrant students last September. There is some confusion about this who have been left without a college following the matter, but no new applications are being added to the introduction of the tough new rules for institutions that archive. If we find cases while mopping up around the wish to sponsor non-EU students. About 500 colleges agency that belong in the archive, which is for very old have disappeared from the register and are no longer cases, they are put there and processed. Nobody should allowed to bring in foreign students. That is a distinct be under the misapprehension—I think it was the hon. public policy success and, again, one that is not often Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) who brought acknowledged. this up—that new applications are going into the archive; they are simply not. Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): Although As has been mentioned, we are now checking cases those colleges are now not functioning and have had not just against public sector databases but against their licences withdrawn, the British high commissions credit scoring databases and so on, to see whether in places such as Delhi, Pakistan and Nepal have already people are leaving any footprint in this country. If they issued the visas and received the fees, and the students are not, there is clearly evidence that they have left, have paid their college fees but are not allowed to study. which allows us to concentrate on those who are here so Hundreds of students have lost their money because the that everyone gets a decision. As the Chairman of the colleges have closed, which is no fault of theirs. What Home Affairs Committee said, the target is finally to are the Government doing about that? clear the backlog this year. Damian Green: I will say two things. First, there has Another big issue that many right hon. and hon. been a huge amount of fraud in the past and the Members brought up was the changes that we are sweeping away of bogus colleges reduces the chances making to family visit visa appeals, which we are restricting. for such fraud. This point was also raised by the hon. I should point out that no other category of visit visa Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). attracts a full right of appeal, and it is a disproportionate Individual students have 60 days to find a new college use of taxpayers’ money to fund a full right of appeal and their visa is still operational for that period. That is for a visitor, to be heard by a tribunal in the UK. No the sensible first step for them to take. other country does that. From 9 July, the new regulations will restrict the full right of appeal to those applying to Stripping away the bogus colleges is only the first visit a close family member with settled refugee or point. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) humanitarian status. made a perfectly reasonable point about those who overstay or abscond. The UKBA has been working I repeat that it is quicker for people to reapply than to through tens of thousands of leave curtailments. It is appeal, and it is not the case that every decision is stripping students and others of their right to remain in simply rubber-stamped. I believe it was the hon. Member the UK if they have no right to be here and providing for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) who brought that up. I them with written notification that they should return assure him that each case is examined by a more senior home. In recent months, it has dealt with almost 25,000 member of staff, and that some decisions are changed curtailments. To ensure that such people return home, by the entry clearance manager. the UKBA is undertaking a summer enforcement campaign to target those who have overstayed their visa. The aim Mr Virendra Sharma: Will the Minister give way? of the campaign is to galvanise intelligence-led enforcement activity against such individuals, with the intention of removing them. So far this summer, we have removed Damian Green: I apologise, but I do not have time to almost 1,800 overstayers. As has been said, that is give way. probably 1,800 more overstayers than have been removed in any previous year. That is not just students, but all The right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton overstayers. (Sir Gerald Kaufman) mentioned a number of individual cases, and if he wishes to grab me after the debate I will of course take them away and look at them. I strongly Jeremy Corbyn: Will the Minister give way? recommend that his office use the Members’ hotline and the case owner system, as other Members do. As Damian Green: I apologise, but we are coming to the the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee said, end of the debate and there are lots of points that I wish relationships can develop that may well deliver a faster to respond to. service to constituents. I seek to reply to the many Foreign national offenders were mentioned by a number letters that I receive from the right hon. Member for of Members. We now start deportation action 18 months Manchester, Gorton as quickly and efficiently as possible, before the end of the sentence to speed up the process. but he might find it easier and better for his constituents We are also chartering more flights to remove foreign if he used the systems that have been set up precisely offenders. Last year, we removed more than 4,500 foreign because of the various problems that have existed over criminals—43% of them before the end of their prison the years. 977 UK Border Agency 4 JULY 2012 978

[Damian Green] FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

I take the points that many Members made about the use of intelligence. We have set up a special directorate UK-Turkey Relations to use intelligence and information from the public [Relevant Document: The Twelfth Report from the Foreign much better, and we are developing a central database Affairs Committee, Session 2010-12, on UK-Turkey relations to enable allegations to be tracked on an end-to-end and Turkey’s regional role, HC 1567, and the Government basis. I listened carefully to the point that, if possible, response, Cm 8370.] people who have given information should get some Motion made, and Question proposed, sort of response about what has happened, but I am sure hon. Members will appreciate that that cannot That, for the year ending with 31 March 2013, for expenditure always happen. by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office— (1) further resources, not exceeding £1,218,567,000, be authorised The Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association has for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1919 of Session brought to our attention a few points of detail in the 2010-12, new appeal regulations, but they do not require us not (2) further resources, not exceeding £53,850,000, be authorised to introduce those regulations on 9 July. for use for capital purposes as so set out, and I do not believe that everything in the UKBA is (3) a further sum, not exceeding £1,152,371,000, be granted to perfect. It has a number of difficult jobs to do, and Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated mistakes will be made, but the agency is now working to Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised a clear and comprehensive set of policies to reduce net by Parliament.—(Angela Watkinson.) migration and is transforming its operations to perform its day-to-day business more efficiently. That is the 4.10 pm current reality of the UKBA, and I hope that the many Members who for obvious reasons take a personal Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): I am delighted interest in its activities recognise that it is changing for that the Foreign Affairs Committee’s report, “UK-Turkey the better. Relations and Turkey’s Regional Role”, which was published in April, has been chosen for this debate, and I start by 4.8 pm paying tribute to the staff of the FAC who worked hard and long through the night to help the Committee Keith Vaz: I will speak only very briefly because the produce the report. Home Affairs Committee does not want to intrude on Turkey’s role on the world stage is influenced by its the time available for the Foreign Affairs Committee’s geography. To the west, it looks to the long-established debate, which is about to begin. nations of Europe that are swept up in economic turmoil I thank all Members who have taken part in the and that note its economic performance with envy, debate. They have all talked about their strong local while, to the south and east, it looks to an unstable relationships, and I want to pay tribute to my own region with an uncertain future that can only dream of caseworker, which I forgot to do earlier. Everyone else the democracy that Turkey enjoys. has paid tribute to theirs, so I should thank Diana Cank for her work. The Arab spring, with its tidal wave of anti-Government protests, has unleashed forces of violence and instability, The Home Affairs Committee will continue to scrutinise and Syria, whose Government are standing their ground, the UKBA in a robust way. We look forward to seeing is sinking further and further into a bloody civil war, yet the Minister before the Committee on Tuesday, and we its neighbour and former ally, Turkey, has not looked will publish our next report in about three weeks. on in silence. The force of events has obliged it to Question deferred (Standing Order No. 54). abandon its policy of zero problems with neighbours and make an outspoken condemnation of Syria’s brutal Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Ihavenowto response. announce the result of the Division deferred on the Syria’s shooting down of a Turkish jet has raised the Question relating to the draft Police and Crime stakes, and Turkey is now on red alert, with six F-16 Commissioner Elections Order 2012. The Ayes were fighter jets positioned near its border with Syria. Given 304 and the Noes were 209, so the Question was agreed to. that Turkey has, until recently, been a long-term friend I have now to announce the result of the Division and ally of Syria, this is a remarkable development. I deferred on the Question relating to the draft order on am sure we all welcome President Assad’s announcement the amendment of curriculum requirements. The Ayes yesterday in which he reportedly expressed regret for were 317 and the Noes were 199, so the Question is the downing of the Turkish plane. agreed to. The Foreign Secretary attended a meeting of an [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s action group on Syria in Geneva last weekend, and, as debates.] colleagues might have noticed, there was a significant development. For the first time, all the permanent members of the Security Council, including Russia and China, reached a consensus on positive steps to support the Annan peace plan. It might turn out to be a turning point in the conflict. In responding to this debate, I would be grateful if the Minister set out what he understands to be Turkey’s intentions with respect to Syria and the risk of armed conflict between the two. 979 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 980

How the crisis will unfold is uncertain, but it is clear independence and regional focus of Turkish foreign that Turkey has an important role in securing democracy, policy may generate differences between Turkish and illustrating its importance as a strategic partner for the UK perspectives and policies. However, as long as its UK in the middle east. It is no surprise that the Prime foreign policy efforts are directed towards the same Minister visited Turkey shortly after taking office, having ultimate goals, Turkey can add value as a foreign policy placed it after only France, Germany, Afghanistan and partner precisely because it is distinct from the UK. the US for his early visits, and we share his view that The Government are right to continue to support the Turkey is an inspiration that other countries can follow. case for Turkey’s membership of the EU. Turkey’s accession This has particular resonance since the outbreak of the would boost the EU’s economic growth and international Arab spring. weight, and at a time of long-term change across the The response to the Arab spring has brought Turkey Arab world, its influence could be invaluable. However, closer to its western allies, and, at the same time, it has Turkey’s application to join the EU has had a troubled maintained strong relations with the Arab League. Having history, as my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough started its democratic path in the 1950s with the army (Mr Jackson) has just pointed out. Progress is slow, but sitting on its shoulder, Turkey has increasingly emerged the problems can be overcome. Two major stumbling as a strong democratic force, with the army focusing on blocks exist: the opposition of other EU countries, security rather than politics, particularly since the predominantly France, and the continued lack of a 2011 general election. settlement on Cyprus.

Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I want to Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): Given take my hon. Friend back to the issue of neighbour that Cyprus has assumed the EU presidency this week, relations. Is he aware that the European Commission’s is it not extraordinary that Turkey continues not to 2011 progress report on Turkey’s accession to the European recognise the Republic of Cyprus and, in practical Union concluded that no progress had been made in the terms, does not abide by the customs union by continuing previous year on the normalisation of relations with to refuse to allow ships and planes from Cyprus to enter Armenia? its ports and airspace? Surely, at this time, Turkey needs to show in a practical way that it wants to enter the club Richard Ottaway: I am aware of that and if I my hon. by recognising that important agreement. Friend will allow me, I will discuss extensively the EU accession point in just a minute. Richard Ottaway: I am grateful for that intervention. The past 10 years have seen a shift in Turkey’s balance In truth, the argument cuts both ways, and I will come of power. It has moved from the Ataturk-style, secular to just that point shortly. military regime that suppressed Islamist political groups Former President Sarkozy was unequivocal in his to a much more healthy partnership, involving an army opposition to Turkish membership. There are signs that that can live with a moderate Islamic Government President Hollande might be more open than his under the Justice and Development party—sometimes predecessor to the idea. Turkey’s ambassador to the EU known as the AKP—led by Prime Minister Erdogan. has hinted that France will lift its block on the talks, Now, Turkey is a good example of a secular democracy and I also understand that President Hollande met in a predominantly Muslim country, and the Foreign Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan on the sidelines of the Office is quite right to treat it as an inspiration. It is an Rio+20 summit last month. Prime Minister Erdogan example that can be followed in the emerging democracies described the meeting as very good, and President in north Africa and the middle east, and no more so Hollande has agreed to visit Turkey. The omens are than in Egypt, which has just elected its first non-military promising, although a note of caution should perhaps leader since 1952. Both countries have Sunni majorities be struck before we get too enthusiastic. and a long history of military dominance, and we can now welcome Mohamed Morsi, from the Freedom and What sort of Europe would Turkey be joining? My Justice party, as Egypt’s new President. In conducting Committee’s impression was that our Turkish partners its parallel inquiry into the Arab spring, my Committee felt that they could not contribute to discussions about had the privilege of meeting Dr Morsi, and we wish him the EU’s future direction unless and until they join it. In well in his task of continuing the transition towards my opinion, Turkey should be involved in the discussion democracy in Egypt. The closer we work with both of matters that will affect it intimately. The Minister for Egypt and Turkey, the better for Britain and the west. Europe, who will reply to this debate, told the Committee, The current climate presents a great opportunity for when he gave evidence to us, that Turkey was unlikely to Turkey to lead by example in the middle east. Western join the EU before 2020, and Turkey has made it clear responses to Prime Minister Erdogan’s Government that it would like to be a member by the centenary of have often mistakenly been influenced by his party’s the republic in 2023. However, all bets are off on exactly so-called Islamist roots. However, we were quite struck what the EU will look like in 2023. I would be grateful by the situation when we visited Turkey last autumn, if, in responding to this debate, the Minister gave us his and our doubts were removed. There was very little assessment of the extent to which the change of leadership evidence that the AKP Government were seeking to in France is likely to make any difference to Turkey’s Islamicise the Turkish state. The AKP is best seen as accession process. akin to a socially conservative Christian Democrat party continuing to govern within a secular state. Furthermore, Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): there was no evidence that Turkey has made an overarching Does my hon. Friend not agree that Turkey could never foreign policy realignment away from the west. We accede to the EU while it continues to occupy a fellow should not underestimate the extent to which the increased EU state militarily? 981 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 982

Richard Ottaway: I am just coming to the issue of Richard Ottaway: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely Cyprus, but let me make the point that when we produced right. I share his assessment of the situation; I do not the report, we looked at Turkey and did not go into the think that the process is dead. There was optimism that merits of the dispute in Cyprus. the question might have been resolved by the end of June, but given the need to work to such a tight deadline, Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): The hon. that has proved impossible. Gentleman is making great play of the change of Government in France, which may indeed be relevant, Mr Robert Walter (North Dorset) (Con): Does my although what Monsieur Hollande said in the election hon. Friend agree that, before we talk about blockages was that Turkish membership was not on the cards by Turkey on issues such as energy or the recognition of before the next election—that is, in five years’ time—so Cyprus, it is important to acknowledge that a blockage he put it off. However, are not the political elites in to better relations between NATO and the EU is being Germany, Austria and a number of other countries in created when, every time the subject crops up in the EU, Europe just as implacably opposed to Turkey joining? it is blocked by Cyprus, which is not prepared to welcome Turkey into EU operations? Richard Ottaway: I think it is wrong to say that they are just as implacably opposed. Germany would like a Richard Ottaway: I note what my hon. Friend has looser relationship than full membership; Austria, I said. The report is careful not to take sides in the think, is just following in its wake at the moment. In dispute between Turkey and Greece over Cyprus, but I truth, it is France that has led the fundamental opposition am sure that the House will have heard his point. to Turkey. I was talking about how the situation with regard to Let me turn in some detail to the dispute with Cyprus. gas reserves off the coast of Cyprus was deteriorating, Because of the long-running dispute, Cyprus continues rather than improving. Turkey is a rising regional economic to block Turkey’s EU accession process in many areas. power within reach of about 70% of the world’s gas and When Cyprus became an EU member, an additional oil reserves. It forms part of the southern gas corridor, protocol was signed obliging Turkey to extend its customs which is critical to reducing the EU’s dependence on union with the EU to Cyprus. However, Turkey has not Russia as a supplier of gas. Frustratingly, the stalling of implemented it, giving as the reason the EU’s continued Turkey’s EU accession process seems to be losing the isolation of northern Cyprus. Cyprus has just taken on EU influence over Turkey’s energy policy decisions. I the presidency of the EU Council, from 1 July, and in would be grateful if the Minister addressed that point. theory is responsible for presiding over accession negotiations with Turkey. However, Ankara has stated Cyprus is not the only major obstacle to Turkey’s EU that its relations with the EU Council cannot continue accession. Let us turn to the sensitive matter of human as normal under the Cypriot presidency. As a result, we rights. Shortcomings in the Turkish justice system are have a deadlock. EU Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon damaging the country’s international reputation. During endeavoured to resolve the matter before Cyprus’s our visit, we were struck by the country’s economic dynamism and international ambition, but we were presidency, but failed. [HON.MEMBERS: “EU Secretary- General?”] I beg the House’s pardon: UN Secretary- taken aback by Turkish legal procedures and by the General. detention of large numbers of military figures, officials, elected politicians, journalists and activists. Such practices The Cyprus deadlock is certainly regrettable. We do not accord with the human rights standards that we believe that the Government should think creatively fight for in the west. We were astonished to hear that, at about whether the international community could do the time of our inquiry, more journalists were in detention anything differently that might help the two sides on the in Turkey than in China. The opaque nature of the island to reach an accommodation. The alternative system seemed to be part of the problem. Information seems to be continued drift. The Foreign Office could, about legal cases is hard to obtain, and we formed the for example, support the use of prospective revenues view that the climate in Turkey was limiting freedom of from potential gas reserves off Cyprus to facilitate a expression and the media. settlement. However, Turkey is now threatening to boycott energy companies co-operating with the Greek Cypriots, Improvements are in progress, however, and we are and the situation is getting worse, not better. That has grateful to the Turkish ambassador for keeping us up to consequences for us all. date. Only on Monday, the Turkish Parliament passed an important judicial reform package, which should Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) reduce pre-trial detention and lead to some actions (LD): Having just been back to Cyprus and on to against journalists being dropped. It is clear that the Turkey and having had conversations on this issue, I do situation is fast moving, and the Foreign Office should not think we should be too pessimistic or fatalistic. help in practical ways to achieve further improvements. Once the six-month presidency is over and the elections That should be done gently and sensitively, however, have taken place in Cyprus, there will still be enough with quiet reminders that we could support Turkey’s good will in Turkey and the Turkish community—in the inspirational role in its region more strongly if it improved Turkish republic, so-called, of northern Cyprus—that its democratic and human rights practices. if the Cypriot Government were willing, there could be significant steps forward next year, with the help and Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): encouragement of our Government and, indeed, a solution. I acknowledge the package of legal reforms that my I think that is also the view of the UN Secretary-General’s hon. Friend has just mentioned, but does he also accept special representative, Mr Downer, who was in London that much more needs to be done in Turkey to prevent last month saying similar things and who will be back violence against women and girls, and to protect the this month, I hope saying the same things again. rights of children? 983 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 984

Richard Ottaway: My hon. Friend is a doughty My Committee also welcomed the increase in the size campaigner for the rights of women and children. The of the Foreign Office’s diplomatic presence in Turkey. report does not focus specifically on that aspect, but I Of the 14 additional staff that the Turkey network is am sure that the House will have heard the point that gaining, three are UK based, and they will be required she has raised. to speak Turkish. This will send a strong signal that this Turkey has committed to drawing up a new constitution, Government are serious about developing strong links which presents a significant opportunity to advance with Turkey, although we remain concerned about the reform. It could signal, at home and abroad, a decisive deployment of language skills in the embassy generally. break with the country’s more authoritarian past, but The future shape and direction of the Arab region reform is threatened by the continuing confrontation during a period of huge volatility is hard to predict. We and conflict between Government and opposition, and must remain committed to supporting Turkey and its between the Turkish state and the Kurdish PKK. rapidly maturing democracy. We must make its EU There have been civilian casualties on both sides of accession a top priority and make the most of the the Kurdish conflict, and cross-border violence into opportunities it offers as a strategic partner of growing and out of northern Iraq continues. However, there are importance. grounds for optimism. I understand, for example, that Several hon. Members rose— Prime Minister Erdogan held a meeting at the weekend with the leading Kurdish activist and MP Leyla Zana. I Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Will would be grateful if the Minister gave us his assessment Members please resume their seats? We will now start a of the latest prospects for progress towards a settlement 12-minute limit, with the usual injury time of one for Turkey’s Kurds. minute for up to two interventions. One issue that came up constantly during our visit was that of visas. Although there are considerable 4.34 pm challenges, if we want a strategic partnership with Turkey, Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Chairman there are matters within our own gift to help achieve it. of our Select Committee, the hon. Member for Croydon The UK’s visa regime for Turkish nationals is a big South (Richard Ottaway), made it clear that during our obstacle to UK-Turkey ties. It is commonly cited by visit to Turkey we were impressed by the progress it had businesses as inconvenient and humiliating. UK trade made in recent years, not just economically but in and academic exchanges suffer from the visa problem. dealing with long-standing issues of human rights and We welcome the fact that the Foreign Office appears to internal democracy, many of which persist. We were, recognise this and is exploring possibilities of easing the however, concerned about the legal system, the long acquisition of UK entry visas for Turkish nationals. delays in the bringing of people to trial, and the continuing An encouraging development is Turkey’s initialling difficulties of many people in the Kurdish community. of its long-awaited readmission agreement with the EU, It is clear that there is still a long way to go before under which it will take back illegal migrants who enter Turkey meets the standards required to join the European the EU from its territory. We also welcome the Schengen Union. However, as my right hon. Friend the Member countries’ decision to start a process towards the lifting for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) and others pointed out, of visa requirements for Turkish nationals, although fundamental difficulties will remain for as long as certain this may throw an even stronger spotlight on the UK’s EU countries take their current attitude to Turkey’s own visa regime. I would be grateful if, in his reply, the potential membership. According to an opinion poll Minister reported progress and gave us a sense of the which is quoted in the report, only 35% of the Turkish feedback he has received on the new processes being population now believe that their country will become a trialled for Turkish applicants for British entry visas. member of the EU. There is much than can and should be done to That presents us with a fundamental challenge, because improve Turkey’s reputation and profile in the UK, and Turkey is growing rapidly, both in terms of its economic vice versa. The role of the British Council is critical. We growth of 7%, 8% or 9% per annum and in terms of its urge it to use its contacts with the young Turkish political and regional influence. Syria has already been population to further their awareness of the UK. Rather mentioned, but Turkey also has borders with Iran, Iraq than risk becoming just an English language-learning and other countries. Geographically, it should be a operation, the British Council needs to engage the two strong partner, and potentially—this is the position of nations through the soft power of cultural diplomacy. both the Government and the Opposition—a member In the year of the London Olympics, for example, the of the European Union. British Council should exploit the fact that Turkey is bidding for the 2020 games—something that we know Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Turkey has been a the British Council is already taking forward. strong partner in NATO and a steadfast friend of this We remain concerned about the Foreign Office cut to country and the rest of NATO for many years. I share the budget of the BBC World Service, and the service the hon. Gentleman’s wish that we get it into the European reductions that resulted from it. World Service Turkish Union as soon as possible. radio broadcasts stopped in March 2011, with the loss of 450,000 listeners—a fifth of the World Service’s total Mike Gapes: I shall say something about NATO in a audience in Turkey. On the brighter side, however, the moment. World Service says that television and the internet are The position taken by the countries in the EU that far more important. About 45% of the Turkish population are resisting Turkey’s application is, of course, easier for has access to the internet, and the World Service’s them to take because of continuing difficulties over the online Turkey service is accessed by almost 500,000 resolution of the conflict involving Cyprus. I am unique users each week. disappointed that, although the Greek Cypriots elected 985 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 986

[Mike Gapes] love to join Schengen; and Norway implements more EU directives than we do, so if Turkey were to follow a President who was, unlike his predecessor, committed the Norwegian course, it would be far more a part of to this process and although the Turkish Government the EU than the UK is. have not opposed it, there has been no resolution. The hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr Walter), my friend Mike Gapes: I agree. from the Inter-Parliamentary Union, said earlier that Turkey has an important regional role to play. There the position could be viewed more optimistically in the are currently some interesting developments in relations light of Cyprus’s presidency of the Council of Ministers. between the Kurdish regional Government in Iraq and I hope so, but I myself am not very optimistic, because I Turkey. There is growing economic investment from think that some of the deep-seated issues are still not Turkey in infrastructure and other projects in the Kurdish easy to resolve regardless of whether Cyprus has the region of Iraq. The Iraqi-Kurdish community wants to presidency. have good relations with Turkey because there is a We need to look to the future imaginatively. Who Kurdish community within Turkey. The role of the knows what the current debates about the future architecture terrorist organisation, the PKK, greatly complicates the of the European Union and the inner core of the situation, of course, but it is also interesting that relations eurozone and the other developments will lead to? It is have improved in recent years despite the PKK’s activities. possible that in five, seven or 10 years’ time, we shall be Those of us who want a stable, democratic and prosperous looking at a completely different structure of European Iraq should recognise that Turkey has an important role foreign policy and political relations. If that proves so, it to play in bringing that about. As the Kurdish region in is tragic that people in this country should want Turkey Iraq exports its oil and gas via Turkey and has greater to join the European Union while a substantial number economic ties with Turkey, we must do all we can to of Government Members want the UK to leave it. It ensure that that is not perceived in Baghdad as somehow seems perverse to want Turkey to be in the EU while we leading to a division or break-up of Iraq. This is a very ourselves want to leave it. That revolving-door approach sensitive issue because there are also Kurdish minorities to international relations strikes me as totally illogical in Syria and Iran, as well as a large Kurdish community and absurd— within Turkey. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con) rose— The Turkish Government have shown great restraint so far in the face of terrible unwarranted military action Mike Gapes: But perhaps the hon. Gentleman can by Syrian Government forces, including the shelling of explain it to me. refugees in Turkey and the shooting down of aircraft. Such actions are totally unacceptable and have rightly Andrew Rosindell: Does the hon. Gentleman agree been condemned. Turkey would be justified in taking that Turkey is a proud nation, and being part of the much stronger action than it has taken so far. The fact European family does not necessarily mean having to that it has not done so reflects its wish not to be drawn be part of a European political union, so we should give militarily into what might be a civil war in Syria, but the the Turkish people impartial advice rather than keep time will come when Turkey has to intervene. If the pushing them in only one direction? number of refugees continues to rise and the conflict within Syria spills over and presents security problems Mike Gapes: I am sure Turkey receives lots of advice, for Turkey, then Turkey might deem it necessary to act, both partial and impartial, from lots of different quarters. in which case it will have to be shown solidarity and It is my understanding that the position of the hon. support by the international community. I hope that Gentleman’s Government is the same as that of my will occur not through a unilateral action but through party’s last Government, which is to support Turkey’s discussion within NATO and the North Atlantic Council. membership of the EU. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman If necessary, and if the Assad regime continues to has a different view, however, and he can explain that behave provocatively and outrageously, we should be when he speaks, if he catches your eye, Mr Deputy prepared to invoke article 5 of NATO’s charter to Speaker. support Turkey and offer it our solidarity if it feels it wants that international umbrella of legitimacy and Andrew Rosindell: The Turkish people should make support in taking action to defend itself. that decision, and we should not hoodwink them into I hope that Turkey will continue to play a constructive believing they have to join the EU to be part of the role in assisting peace and security in the region. family of European nations. Switzerland and Norway Interestingly, the Government’s response did not refer manage perfectly successfully without being in the EU. to one of the conclusions in our report, paragraph 129, which makes it clear that good relations between Turkey Mike Gapes: Switzerland and Norway are smaller and Israel are in the UK’s interests. Perhaps the Government countries than Turkey. The Turkish people are very wise did not respond to that paragraph because we did not and they will make their own decisions in their own recommend anything, but I hope that the Minister will national interests, but it is helpful of us to say that it is refer to it in his response and set out the Government’s in the UK’s interests for Turkey to be part of an position. enlarged EU, and that that will promote democracy and stability as well as our influence throughout a very Unfortunately, Turkey’s relations with Israel have difficult part of the world. deteriorated significantly, mainly because of the Mavi Marmara incident and its mishandling by the Netanyahu Mr MacShane: Ad interim, having the status of a Government. We had conversations in Turkey about Switzerland or a Norway would be useful. Switzerland that and the Turkish Government and their representatives is a member of Schengen, and I think Turkey would felt that a proper apology was not given either when the 987 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 988 incident happened or afterwards, even though they were the Ottoman empire. In areas of conflict and of post-conflict led to believe that there would be a full apology. That reconstruction, Europe has benefited from Turkey’s would have led to the restoration of improved relations, influence. In the Balkans, Bosnia, Kosovo and Macedonia, which did not happen. Turkish influence is not to be underestimated, and we In conclusion, I want to mention the so-called Turkish should recognise that. In the Maghreb—the countries model and its influence in the region. Our report suggests of the Arab spring—Turkey was the first back in, in than rather than talking about Turkey as a model for terms of influence, and it had influence that predated us the Arab world and the Arab spring, we should talk in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt. In the middle east, Turkey’s about it more as an inspiration. Reference was made to influence on its near neighbours—Iraq, Iran, Palestine the victory of the Muslim Brotherhood and President and Syria—is something on which we should capitalise, Morsi in Egypt. It is significant that when Prime Minister and which we should not ignore. Erdogan visited Egypt last year, there were initially It is not just in areas of conflict or post-conflict that huge crowds of Muslim Brotherhood people at the Turkey has influence; it has economic influence in the airport as well as demonstrations of support for him. Balkans, the Maghreb and the middle east, as well as After he said that they should be moving towards not the Caucasus and central Asia, particularly the Turkic- an Islamic state but a secular state, such as that in speaking nations of central Asia. Europe’s neighbourhood Turkey, led by a Muslim party, there were very few is Turkey’s neighbourhood. The Ottoman empire, to people to greet him and praise him when he left the which I referred, significantly predated the British empire. country. The message did not go down very well with In the middle ages, it dislodged Byzantium. By the some of the Muslim Brotherhood, who have now won mid-19th century, it was in serious decline. It was Tsar the presidential election. It will be interesting to see how Nicholas I of Russia who coined the phrase that Turkey the development of one form of Islamic-led democracy was the “sick man of Europe”. He thought that Britain influences another country that has just elected a Muslim and France would stand by while he took control of the Brotherhood president. Crimea, but he was mistaken. We reacted, not because Turkey is an important player in its region and a we wanted to prolong the rule of the Ottoman empire growing power economically in the world. Turkey gives but because we wanted to limit Russian influence, which us an ally with whom we should be working in NATO has very much been part of our foreign policy ever since. and at some point, I hope, in an enlarged European The final demise came in world war one, when Turkey Union. backed the wrong side. The treaty of Sèvres in 1920 effectively destroyed the unity of the Turkish state and partitioned the Ottoman empire between the allied powers. 4.48 pm Many educated Turks—and this is key to modern Turkey— Mr Robert Walter (North Dorset) (Con): I congratulate were totally dissatisfied with that. The war of independence, Ministers on the Treasury Bench on singling out the under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Pasha, who we topic of UK-Turkey relations and Turkey’s foreign policy now know as Ataturk, the name given to him by the when considering the estimates for the Foreign Office. Turkish Parliament, resulted in the 1923 treaty of Lausanne Turkey is a delightful country. I think you know that, and the modern Turkish state. Mr Deputy Speaker, as I think you have been there on a Ataturk is somebody we should focus on. He was the number of occasions. I was reminded of it only yesterday man who wanted to create Turkey and reinforce it as a when I got into a taxi in Belfast with a number of modern European state, a secular state. In the early colleagues. The taxi driver asked where we were going years he set about banning the fez and the turban, and for our holidays and then told us that he was going back later the veil and the headscarf, all the paraphernalia of to the same hotel, in the same town in Turkey, as he had a religious state. Arabic script was banned and replaced for the past 19 years. He and the hotel owner were on by a Latin alphabet. Religious schools were outlawed. such good terms that he no longer had to pay for the Women were given equal rights and universal suffrage. hotel room, and just for his flights; I do not know how Islamic law was replaced by a civil code based on the much Guinness he drank when he got there. I, too, shall Swiss model and a penal code based on the Italian spend time in Turkey over the summer recess. As many model. This is the basis of modern Turkey. colleagues know, my wife is Turkish, but my interest in The question which I know some of our colleagues in and commitment to supporting Turkey’s role in European Germany and France still ask is, “Is Turkey a European institutions long predates my marriage. country? Should it be a member of the EU?” We have Turkey is a fascinating country, and there are similarities already heard that it is a member of NATO, a founder with our own history. We lost an empire; Turkey lost its member of the OECD, a member of the Council of empire about 50 years before we lost ours. Turkey’s Europe and a member of the Organisation for Security greatest area of influence, political, economic and cultural, and Co-operation in Europe. It was an associate member is in the former Ottoman empire, and we ignore that at of the Western European Union, and it participates in our peril. Conservative estimates suggest that the EU European Union battle groups, EU military operations neighbourhood policy costs in the order of ¤1.4 billion and is also a participant in the European Court. a year. When we add the cost of the new EU External Turkey applied to join the European Union in 1963. Action Service, we can see that the EU spends an awful That was also the year of the first French veto against lot of money on our neighbourhood. Our political and our membership, but we joined eventually in 1973 and economic effectiveness, however, is dwarfed by Turkish Turkey is still trying to join. In 1995 the customs union foreign policy in that very same neighbourhood. was concluded with the European Union, and 59% of A key argument to embrace Turkey and its foreign Turkey’s exports go to the European Union—some policy is our joint approach to our common neighbourhood; 10% to Germany and 6% each to France, Italy and the most of Europe’s neighbourhood was, in fact, part of United Kingdom. It is the fastest growing economy in 989 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 990

[Mr Robert Walter] Few people have visited the south-east and seen for themselves where the majority of Turkey’s Kurdish Europe. It grew by 9% in 2010 and by 8.5% in 2011. population live and the strong feelings they have about Growth is slowing this year, but Turkey is still the the use of their own language. They want the right to be fastest growing economy in Europe. able to speak in Kurdish whenever they want to do so. Politically and economically, Turkey brings so much Of course, in the past that was very difficult and many to the table that we delay her membership at our peril. have been put in prison for using Kurdish, which the There are those who say that Europe is a Christian club Turkish Government have very strong views about. and Turkey is a Muslim country. I suspect that Turkey I want to talk briefly about a friend of mine, Leyla would not have succeeded in joining the Holy Roman Zana. I first met her nearly 20 years ago when I visited empire, but this is the modern Europe. It is a place for her in prison in Ankara. She had been a member of the all cultures and we should not be discriminating on the Turkish Parliament, one of the first Kurds to be elected basis of the predominant religion in that country. Our to it, and when she was sworn in she took her oath in own nation is a good example of that, as are many Kurdish and wore Kurdish colours in her hair. It was others. European Union membership for Turkey is not not long before she found herself in prison. She was put without its problems, but Turkish membership is in our in jail for 10 years because it was believed that she was interest economically, politically and strategically. Turkey strongly associated with the PKK. Of course, some of has always been a strong ally of Europe and should be the PKK’s aims include language rights for the Kurds. I recognised as such today. Europe should recognise her went to see her in jail and took her a birthday card, contribution and grant her membership as soon as because it was her birthday. I had written the card in possible. Welsh, which the Turkish authorities of course could not make out, and so was able to deliver it and wish her 4.58 pm a happy birthday. The prison governor allowed me to stay with her for about an hour and a half, and afterwards Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I, too, have a taxi he said to me, “You know, she shouldn’t be here.” I story, following the one from the hon. Member for knew that she should not have been there. North Dorset (Mr Walter). My taxi story started in Diyarbakir in the south-east of Turkey some years ago, Unfortunately, in the past few weeks Leyla Zana has when I was going to the very south-east of the country been sentenced to another 10 years in jail, but because to look at the Ilusu dam area and the flooding of she is a member of parliament she has immunity, but Batman and other areas which are of historic importance there is no certainty that that immunity will remain. to Turkey and particularly to the Kurds. My taxi driver There are concerns that she could still face another said to me, “I’ve sold my only cow.” I looked at him in 10 years in jail, which would be a disgrace. It is interesting amazement and he said, “To buy a satellite dish.” At that in the past few days Prime Minister Erdogan met that time he could see television programmes only in the Leyla Zana and they had a discussion, and she made Turkish language, and he wanted to see programmes in some comments after it. The Prime Minister told journalists the Kurdish language. Things have moved on quite a bit that it had gone very well and I believe that it was very since then, productive. After the meeting, Leyla Zana spoke to the press and called on the Government to restart talks I am pleased to say. I have a long association with with militants, meaning the PKK. It is important that Turkey and want to see it in the European Union, and I those talks take place. There have been awful incidents can say strongly that this country is a friend of Turkey on both sides, and many people on both sides of the and also wants to see it in the European Union. argument have died. Many in the military have been My friend the hon. Member for Croydon South killed, but PKK personnel and innocent civilians have, (Richard Ottaway), who chairs the Foreign Affairs too. Committee, gave a comprehensive account of the areas the Ms Zana said that security-based policies had not Committee has looked at and the recommendations it worked, and she made the suggestion, anathema to has made. I still have many concerns about human many Turks, that Abdullah Ocalan, the PKK leader rights in Turkey. When I chaired the Inter-Parliamentary serving a life sentence, could be transferred to house Union’s committee on the human rights of parliamentarians arrest. She also praised the Prime Minister for meeting —you know it well, Mr Deputy Speaker—which is her, saying: based in Geneva, we always had delegations from Turkey at its conferences twice a year because of complaints “He showed his sincerity on the need to open channels of about the way members of the Turkish Parliament were dialogue. When I decided to meet with him, I based it on my being treated. reasoning, political experience and insight.” I see myself as a critic of Turkey and also a friend. Their meeting was dismissed by the PKK, which said: When it needs a pat on the back, I am pleased to do so, “They have entered into a military-solution process. The AKP but I will also kick it when that is necessary to get some government lost the war it staged against the Kurds and Kurdish action on human rights. There have been great changes freedom movement in the last year.” in Turkey, and I have to say that the AK party Government Interestingly, however, Leyla Zana could take over as have contributed much towards that. The change has leader of the PKK, and, although it is described as a not been as fast as some of us would like it to be, but terrorist organisation, we in this House all know how nevertheless there has been considerable progress on many times we have described organisations as terrorist human rights. and then sat down to talk with them. Such talks are I still have concerns about the treatment of the Kurds beginning to take place, and I commend the Turkish in the south-east of the country, to which my friend the Government on initiating that dialogue, which I very hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr Walter) also referred. much hope will continue. 991 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 992

I am concerned also about the treatment of journalists officer made that comment, a Government with strong in Turkey, as I know our Government are, and in our conservative Muslim roots, and a leadership with a report we made several comments on that, stating: history of political Islam, were elected to office in Turkey. “We recommend that the FCO should suggest that the Turkish Even two years ago, the situation in our embassy in government encourage prosecutors and judges to exercise restraint Turkey was still one of pretty extreme crisis. As the in the use of arrest and pre-trial detention, pending more thorough- Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee has pointed going reform of the justice system.” out, we were shifting towards the system that eventually When I was in Istanbul I met journalists and journalist came about, involving the closing down of the BBC associations. They are afraid of saying anything that is Turkish service and the British Council in Turkey hiding sensitive to the Turkish Government, and too many of at the back of a large shopping mall with almost no them are in jail. Our Government have welcomed recent evidence of Britain on display. It has an energetic, steps to address those issues, because freedom of expression dynamic and dedicated Turkish staff who, understandably, is a very necessary freedom, which any potential EU struggle to communicate British culture to a Turkish member must support, but Turkey need not be as audience, given that a significant number of them have sensitive as it is, because it has made substantial progress. never visited the United Kingdom. Indeed, I have paid tribute to Turkey for that progress As the report makes clear—last year the Foreign over the years, because my first visit to the country took Office gave us the figures—we have 25 extensive Turkish place when the military were in charge. I went on behalf speakers in the British diplomatic network, of whom of Amnesty International to a trial at a prison in exactly one was in the embassy in Turkey. That is the Istanbul, where people who were the equivalent of top level of Turkish language. We also had 23 operational members of CND were on trial, and that was a horrible Turkish speakers—and again, exactly one of them was time in Turkey’s history. Things are changing, however, to be found in Turkey. That is comparable with having and with a bit more initiative they will improve even 46 fast-jet pilots trained at great expense to the UK faster. taxpayer and only two of them flying aeroplanes. Some time ago, in talks with the Foreign Office, I In addition, the focus has been taken from political suggested that we invite Turkish MPs to this country to work towards other forms of work. Why does that see bilingualism in practice and to show them that it matter? It matters for all the reasons on which others in does not mean separation. We now have bilingualism in the Chamber have so eloquently held forth. Turkey is Wales, and it was hard fought-for, but the Turks could now a major exemplar for the region, a place of interest learn a little from the process. All the Turkish MPs and importance to the United Kingdom and somewhere whom I have met have seemed very keen on the idea of we ought to be able to exercise some influence. coming to see how bilingualism works in practice, and, Politically, of course, Turkey represents something if they were convinced of it, the Kurdish problem in that confounded our fears and predictions. Many Turkey could be solved. commentators, looking at Turkey in 2001, were terrified, just as we were terrified about Islamic movements in 5.9 pm Egypt, by the possibility of some kind of Islamist movement in Turkey which reliable commentators described Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): One of in 2001 and 2002 as some form of new Taliban or even the reasons why Turkey is such an exciting subject is new al-Qaeda. Indeed, that was swept up by secular that it is an exemplar not just for the whole middle east, voices in Turkey, that focused on the worst-case scenario but for British foreign policy. Turkey is a strange place in terms of what the AKP would be. The reality is that for us. We have a huge great embassy—now the consulate those fears were not confirmed; in fact, that change is general—in Istanbul, and it would impress hon. Members. perhaps the strongest example worldwide of a democratic It is more magnificent than this Chamber and even than transition from a military Government—considerably the other place, with wooden parquet floors, beautiful more impressive even than the transition achieved in marble courtyards. Indonesia. Only 20 years ago, that all seemed a bit out of date As others have so eloquently pointed out, on the and out of proportion. For all the reasons my hon. economic side the Turkish economy, in per capita GDP Friend the Member for North Dorset (Mr Walter) terms, is now larger than that of Bulgaria or Romania. pointed out, the embassy was conceived when the Ottoman It has grown considerably faster in the past decade, and empire was at its height and when Lord Palmerston, the Istanbul littoral—the 20 million people around based in this House, was charging around frenetically, Istanbul—have a GDP per capita larger than that of shelling the coast of what was then part of the Ottoman Poland. empire to seize Acre and play incredibly complicated As regards the AKP’s conduct of foreign affairs, games with Russia and France—and, indeed, Afghanistan despite the opposition party complaining that it would and Persia on the Turkish borders. be an unruly, destabilising force, we have found that By a decade ago, we could see that the Foreign Office although it has taken an independent policy on Israel had almost given up, and that is a real parable in what and an unexpected policy on Syria and on Iran, it has goes wrong in long-term British foreign policy planning. not proved to be a dangerous force in the region at all. Ten years ago, the desk officer for Turkey, in London, In fact, in Libya the AKP has proved to be an extraordinary said very confidently that there was absolutely no point example in being more generous and flexible than many in the Islamic department of the Foreign Office doing other NATO members, and it has got considerably Islamic communication or anything in Turkey because more credit from the Libyan people as a result. in 2001 we were absolutely confident that Turkey was a Of course, this does not mean that everything is secular state and that in Turkey there was absolutely no sunny in Turkey. As many people have pointed out, interest in Islam. Almost immediately after the desk there are serious problems. From a foreign policy point 993 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 994

[Rory Stewart] everybody is allowed to bid for posts towards one in which a manager can tell people that they should be of view, there is no point in our treating Turkey as going to Turkey given that the taxpayer has invested though it were a superpower, because it remains a considerably in training them in the language. middle-ranking power. We cannot vest in it all responsibility That also necessitates difficult HR changes to the for the middle east. We cannot imagine that it has the core competency framework that governs promotion key to the solution in Afghanistan or in Syria. Despite within the Foreign Office. Currently, the second secretary Turkey’s extraordinary development over the past 30 years, for political affairs at the embassy in Ankara does not there remains a significant gap in terms of human, have a direct interest in continuing in political work. financial and institutional capital that prevents it from Despite good sounds coming from the Minister and the occupying that kind of role. Economically, as the right Foreign Secretary, saying that political work is increasingly hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) pointed important, and despite all the good messages about the out, there are considerable problems in eastern Turkey, diplomatic excellence initiative, the brutal reality remains where people have a GDP per capita that is one sixth that one’s career in the Foreign Office is determined by that of people in Istanbul; in other words, they often management expertise. have per capita incomes of about $4,000 to $5,000 a All the incentives are driving ambitious young people year. Turkey is not a wealthy country. out of political work and into getting management In terms of politics, we need seriously to consider the experience. I can name two cases in the diplomatic fact that despite the great advances and the extraordinary network in Turkey of people who have chosen to go tightrope action of the AKP Government in the way into UK Trade and Investment management roles because that they improvised with the constitution, negotiated they do not believe that they will be promoted on the challenges with the judiciary, and took certain moves basis of political roles. The core competency framework, that were on the risky side, we have ended up—despite which governs promotion, does not take into account all the progress made with the military—with the scandal linguistic expertise or deep country knowledge in any of what is happening with the terror laws. Turkey should, way; it measures people purely—and is only allowed to and can, be an example to the region, but that ought measure people—on the basis of their management not to involve locking up peaceful dissidents, journalists skills. That must be changed if we are fundamentally to and academics. That is not a necessary part of a counter- change the culture of the Foreign Office. It is not terrorism policy. enough for us to say that these things matter; we must promote people on the basis of them. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): To deepen this further, we might need to change the I think that 10% or more of the cases in the European criteria on which people are rewarded. We should have Court of Human Rights emanate from Turkey. My indicators of how many Turks, for example, somebody hon. Friend and others have spoken about the steps that in the embassy meets. We should have indicators of how Turkey has managed to take in improving human rights. often they get outside Ankara and Istanbul to remote Will he tell the House what further measures he thinks areas of the country. That should be part of the criteria necessary? The Minister could then tell us what steps for their assessment and promotion. the Government are taking to encourage those measures. Finally, on commercial opportunities and UKTI, it is all very well our saying that we want to double UK Rory Stewart: The central element is to focus on trade and investment with Turkey, but how is that going making sure—we in Britain have experienced this and to happen? Where are the people and where is the drive? people have gone through it in Spain—that the terror It is difficult to make that happen. Italy is currently laws are not applied to peaceful protesters such as outperforming us twofold in Turkey—Italian trade to academics and journalists but targeted at people who Turkey is nearly twice that of British. Sixteen flights a are genuinely involved in armed struggle. Perhaps Britain, day go from Italy to Turkey, almost all of them from which has built up a good relationship with Turkey Milan. Big Italian infrastructure companies are building through taking a friendly attitude towards EU accession, roads and getting involved in dams, and small and has more leverage over that issue than countries such as medium-sized Italian companies are outperforming British France. small and medium-sized enterprises on the ground. What can Britain do, though? The core question is I propose, modestly, that it might be worth looking at not “Whither Turkey?” but “Whither Britain in Turkey?” seconding 25-year-olds from major UK financial and What is the Foreign Office supposed to do? What sort consultancy companies, with proper incentive structures of reforms are we supposed to introduce? How are we and targets, to try to achieve the difficult aim of boosting supposed to change our attitude towards the country to UK trade and investment. I do not want to pick out a get more out of the relationship? The first thing we need particular company, but I would imagine that McKinsey to do is very difficult. It is all very well the Foreign would be quite happy to second somebody at the age of Office saying that it has designated more speaker slots 25 to UKTI for two or three years, with a decent in Turkey, but the unfortunate reality is that if a slot has incentive structure, to see whether they could meet been designated for a Turkish speaker, there is no way those targets. of compelling anyone to fill it. Therefore, across the All this is necessary because Turkey matters. It matters diplomatic network we have a number of slots designated to Britain, and Britain’s leverage in Turkey is still potentially for Arabic speakers or Turkish speakers that remain large. If we introduced those kinds of reforms in Turkey unfilled. If we are serious about making sure that out of and other countries, we could achieve something 25 Turkish speakers a quarter, say, are in Turkey, we extraordinary. The danger is that, having been worried have to change the human resources procedures of the 20 years ago that the great palace on a hill that we Foreign Office. We have to move from a situation where occupy was too large for Turkey and that Britain’s 995 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 996 interests were elsewhere, we run the risk of being that incomers, that country will somehow be strong again. I other great building in Istanbul, which is of course the am glad that in the presidential election President Hollande great representation of Venice—a palace even larger rejected such hostility to immigration and the idea that than ours, stuck up on the hill. That now seems out of there is a need to place a cap on the number of immigrants date for a different reason—because Turkey is too big coming into France. As we know, President Sarkozy’s for Venice. Let us make sure that that does not happen reactionary anti-immigrant language was defeated. to us. I have been going to Turkey for nearly 30 years, first to small left-wing trade union meetings in the 1970s and 5.23 pm then to the trial of Orhan Pamuk in 2005, when I was Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): It is a great pushed to the ground and kicked by a few nasty right pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Penrith and wingers. I keep going there as often as I can, and after The Border (Rory Stewart). I loved his idea that diplomats each trip I come back more impressed but more perplexed. should get out and walk across the dusty plains of I am more impressed by the vitality and excitement—it Anatolia. Perhaps one of them might write a book really is one of the most exciting countries in the world about such an excursion or go off and become a political to visit—but more perplexed by my failure to work out commissioner, giving out political instruction and wisdom how the Rubik’s cube of Turkey is put together. I do not to others. I concur with his lament about foreign languages. speak Turkish, and I do not think I am going to learn It is terribly heartening to hear a Conservative Member that language. say that a language other than English is spoken in the On one level Turkey is all the things that hon. Members world. He spoke about the notion that promotion in the have said it is. It is dynamic and growth-focused, and it Foreign Office should depend on linguistic ability. Heaven has brought an enormous number of people into middle- forfend that that should be applied to Ministers. He was class prosperity. Istanbul has some of the youngest and right to be lyrical. most exuberant art in the world. The last time I was I dispute the hon. Gentleman’s view that nothing had there, I had dinner with Orhan Pamuk, who had won happened in Turkey until the Foreign Affairs Committee, the Nobel prize and was threatened with death by of which he is a distinguished member, made its visit. I Turkish nationalists and imprisonment by Turkish judges. recall a most distinguished diplomat, Sir Peter Westmacott, We went to a restaurant on the Bosphorus and he was who is now our representative in the United States, accompanied by a bodyguard. He was stopped by spending a great deal of time acting, with great linguistic somebody and had a little chat. I asked, “Who was ability, as the most effective bridge between any European that?” He said, “Oh, that was the state attorney-general, state or any NATO member state and the Turks during who a couple of years ago was trying to put me in his time in office there. I recall him working with prison permanently. He said to me, ‘Orhan, you’re Mr Erdogan and the then Prime Minister Tony Blair, down to one bodyguard, are you? You see, we are who had invested an enormous amount of time cajoling, making progress.’” I think that is true. persuading, bullying, nudging—all the things that he The Foreign Affairs Committee’s report is absolutely was rather good at—his fellow European leaders to first-rate, and I commend its detail and thoroughness accept the opening of full negotiations with Turkey. and the work of the Committee’s Chairman and members. That was touch and go. When I was Europe Minister, I I have some brief points to make about it. We need to remember being there right through to 4 or 5 o’clock in reconsider our visa regime. The hon. Member for Penrith the morning as Mr Blair, Mr Erdogan and Sir Peter and The Border talked about people learning Turkish formed a troika that got Turkey to the start of discussions and Turks getting to know Britain. It is a travesty that it with the European Union. was easier to visit the Soviet Union in the old days than I differ somewhat from the view expressed by the it is for many Turks to get a visa to come to the United hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), a Kingdom. We have to grow up—we cannot say that we distinguished Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, are open for business and be closed to foreigners. I am who seemed to finger France as the main problem. It sorry if that language does not sit well, but it is the was General de Gaulle who, in 1963, insisted that the truth. European Economic Community should open a On page Ev 80 of the evidence published in the relationship with Turkey. He thought that the Europe Committee’s report, Migration Watch UK states: that he dreamed of—the “Europe des patries”, as he “The Poles are Catholics of European heritage…the bulk of called it—would have to be as large as possible and Turkish immigrants in this country, and elsewhere in Europe, are that to exclude a great, important and historic state poorer, less educated Muslims of Middle Eastern heritage who such as Turkey simply did not make sense. On the form the majority of Turkey’s population.” whole, French political leaders have been quite good That is the evidence presented by this wretched organisation, friends of Turkey from that moment on. President Migration Watch UK, to the Committee. One hundred Chirac certainly supported Turkish admission, and the years ago, we passed the Status of Aliens Act 1914, former Prime Minister Michel Rocard wrote an excellent using exactly the same argument about Jews coming book two or three years ago—in French, and sadly it is from the poorer parts of eastern Europe. Until we grow not available in English, although perhaps it is in up and stop the Islamophobic dislike of people from Turkish—on the need for Turkey to join the EU and outside Britain coming here, we will not have the influence why France should support that. we need. President Sarkozy pandered to the part of the electorate that exists in all our countries that sees anything foreign Mr Stewart Jackson: I fear that the right hon. Gentleman as a bad thing. He pandered to the idea that any inadvertently conflates two totally separate issues: first, immigrants coming to France were a bad thing and his value judgment of the language used in the French that, as long as the gates of a nation are shut to elections; and secondly, the fact that the French legislature 997 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 998

[Mr Stewart Jackson] and the stronger the relations, the better, particularly with Greece. I agree strongly with that, but Greece and courts made a value judgment on the systematic spends 50% more of its GDP on defence than we or denial of the Armenian genocide of 1915. That is a the Turks do. Greece has imported more weapons in separate issue and still going through the French courts. the past 10 years than Israel. Why? Because Turkey will He should not conflate the electioneering language with still not give an unqualified security guarantee to all an issue of principle. the territory of Greece. There are overflights and rows on this and that—not a full-scale invasion—but I Mr MacShane: The electioneering language from cannot meet a Greek who, when I say, “Why are you then President Sarkozy and right-wing politicians in spending all this money on defence? You’re not going to France was simply hostile to Turkey, as it is in Germany go to war with Turkey,” does not shiver and shudder. and Austria. And believe me, if we want to list the Turkey could help to stabilise the Greek economy by politicians, newspapers and political cultures that are signing a total non-aggression pact with Greece, saying hostile to Turkey, we should look across the Rhine that it will respect all Greek property and territorial rather than in Paris. I wrote an article in Le Monde, frontiers. which I am happy to send to the hon. Gentleman, Although Turkey opened its frontiers with Syria—now, condemning the absurd notion that the French Parliament however, it finds itself in the midst of the Syrian storm—it would decide what was genocide and what was not. refuses to open its frontiers with Armenia because of That is a matter for history, not politicians. the Nagorno-Karabakh situation and its relationship We need to ask one or two serious questions of with the Turkic-speaking Azerbaijan. Again, I can half Turkey. It demands absolute solidarity, which personally understand that, but closed frontiers are the curse of all I give, in its fight against the PKK and its wretched modern economic development and political advances. killer terrorist leader, Ocalan, but when exactly the My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley same type of organisation, Hamas, insists on its right to (Ann Clwyd) referred to the problem of journalists, kill Jews and Israelis and to blow up people in the specifically Leyla Zana. As we speak, 205 people are on region, and the Israelis take the necessary action to trial near Istanbul. The publisher Ragip Zarakolu, who protect their state from Hamas, Mr Erdogan supports was first condemned by the Turkish judicial system in Hamas while demanding condemnation of the PKK. 1971 for having secret links with Amnesty International, Turkey must be asked to support not only friendly is again standing trial. That is not necessarily the Turkish relations 360° around the compass, as its Foreign Minister Government’s fault; rather, the Turkish judicial system said, but absolute geopolitical consistency. If we are to needs to rethink. If we want to increase parliamentary support Turkey’s campaign, action and language against links, Labour Members should explain to the CHP—the the PKK, Turkey must ask itself why it supports terrorist nominally social democratic party—that Turkey’s penal organisations elsewhere in the region. code, with its legendary clause 301, which makes it a Mention has been made of Cyprus. The European crime to insult the Turkish nation and gives the judicial Council first committed itself to opening trade links system and prosecutors carte blanche to arrest and lock with northern Cyprus but then reneged. That said, up anybody they want, is a real problem. Turkey does not need to maintain two full military Those are the slight questions that I have, based on divisions of 35,000 men stationed in the tiny area of decades of visiting Turkey. I would like Britain to make northern Cyprus. It can withdraw any number of them, a special effort on Turkey. The Minister is committed to while still leaving an adequate security presence, and doing so, but he is hamstrung by two great problems, show to the world it is looking for a new relationship the first of which is the attitude of the Home Office and with Cyprus. Turkish-Cypriot relations are bitter and its hostility to foreigners coming in to Britain. The poisonous. I do not agree with the deputy leader of the other great difficulty is that, although we proclaim Liberal Democrats, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey ourselves across the House to be the champions of and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), who said he thought, Turkey joining the European Union, the rest of Europe after a visit there, that it would all get better next year. listens to the Prime Minister talking about referendums There needs to be a huge sea change on both sides. My and saying there is no terror for Britain outside the EU. own view is that in any of these conflicts, the bigger, the The rest of Europe therefore thinks that we are on the more powerful and the more dominant nation—and, in way out. Turkey wants to come in—we may be on 1974, the invading nation—should be the one to find the way out. We need to rethink our approach to the the confidence to come to a better accord with the European Union, but I am not sure that that will people it cannot find a solution even to talk to. happen on this Government’s watch.

Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): 5.37 pm The right hon. Gentleman mentions Cyprus. Will he Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): I acknowledge that Turkey has done an awful lot in always think myself unlucky to follow the right hon. recent years to improve relations with Greece, and will Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) in foreign he join me in expressing our satisfaction at that? affairs debates. To follow him and my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) is Mr MacShane: Absolutely. Turkish foreign policy is downright unfair. Both have displayed huge personal innovative, flexible and open. We remember President knowledge and experience of the issues the House is Gul’s state visit to London last year or perhaps 18 debating, and made incisive comments. I agreed with months ago. It was an important triumph, and he is a much of what both colleagues said. My perhaps more very distinguished statesman. There are many, many modest and limited remarks may serve as an opportunity highly competent Turkish diplomats and business men, for other colleagues to shine later. 999 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1000

I want to join those who congratulated my hon. shelling across the border and the destruction and Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), shooting down by Syrian forces of a Turkish air force the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, on its jet. However, there is clearly a limit beyond which excellent report, the significant amount of work that Turkey will be drawn, and there may come a point when clearly went into it, and the understanding that he and it decides that it is in its security interest to take action his colleagues from across the House brought to the on its border. I would therefore ask the Minister to say issue in informing Government policy on it. I was what assessment of potential involvement through article 5 struck by his saying that Turkey is at the crossroads of has been made and what discussions are continuing the old world. To its north-west, Turkey sees Europe, with the Turkish authorities. which is experiencing difficult times economically, has I would hope that everybody in this House wants to an increasingly ageing population and, some would say, see a prosperous, democratic, diverse Turkey being is experiencing a period of stagnation. To its south-east welcomed into the European Union. It has huge potential is the boom of the Arab spring—dynamic countries to act both as a driver of growth in the European with much younger populations who are trying to thrust economy and as a bridge from the European economy forward and create a destiny for themselves with self- into the emerging markets in north Africa and the determination. In the north-east, of course, Turkey has middle east. It has always been my belief that for us to Russia on its periphery, with all the challenges and secure the political change that we have seen in the concerns that brings. Turkey operates in quite a complex region, we will have to cement economic advancement security environment. It is that aspect of our strategic for the peoples of the region too. I think Turkey has the relationship that I would like to dwell on for a few potential to be a hugely useful bridge for Europe into minutes. those other markets. The whole House will want to acknowledge the It is clear, however, that we need to see a resolution to contribution that Turkey has made to ISAF—the the Cyprus question and, as the right hon. Member for international security assistance force—in Afghanistan. Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) said, to the issues relating to At one point during operations there Turkey was the the political persecution of journalists and the persecution third largest force contributor. Turkey is responsible for of women. I would add that Turkey’s record on the the security of Kabul and has about 1,300 service treatment of its lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender personnel deployed there. That is Turkey’s active minorities is not great. The report highlights many of engagement on the ground in Afghanistan, but it is also the issues on which we must continue to press the a key ally for the United Kingdom in maintaining the Turkish authorities, but, crucially, we need Turkey’s air bridge, so that we can get our men and matériel into attitude towards Cyprus to lead to a resolution of that Afghanistan, to keep them effectively supplied to prosecute issue in due course. I am not over-optimistic that we will the operation there. When I had the great privilege of see progress on that in the next year, however. The visiting Afghanistan and talking to some of the British Cyprus presidency could make it an explosive issue—that and other international forces on operation there, it was is perhaps not the best use of the word “explosive”—but clear that the relationship among all the NATO allies we need to see a willingness on both sides to come was effective on the ground. In particular, the people in together and resolve their difficulties in due course. the RAF I spoke to valued the co-operation of the Turkish authorities in maintaining the air bridge so I should like to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the effectively. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), who has recently led the creation of the British Mena— Equally, Turkey is a major contributor to the European middle east and north Africa—Council here on the Union force operating in Bosnia and Herzegovina. We parliamentary estate. It is now the largest caucus of have to recognise and applaud Turkey for that. It is one parliamentarians, with more than 200 Members of this of only two non-EU nations to be engaged in that level House and the other place having expressed an interest of activity. My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and in working on a cross-party basis to develop parliamentary The Border referred earlier to the extent of Turkish relationships between the United Kingdom and the involvement in the Libyan campaign. I am sure that the countries in those regions. I know that he remains whole House will also want to acknowledge and pay interested in Turkey, as do I, and I am sure that the tribute to the Turkish authorities for their courageous development of that new parliamentary body will pay and far-sighted decision to support NATO operations dividends in the long run. in that theatre. Turkey adds to religious diversity and brings economic We therefore already have strong and cohesive security dynamism and cultural and historical depth to the links with Turkey, and it is right that the report sets out table, as well as providing a meeting point for cultures ways in which we and the Foreign Office can build on and continents, and it should remain a strategic partner them. In particular, when we look to the medium term of our Government. It is absolutely right that the and the potential proliferation of nuclear weapons—by Foreign Office should take that approach, and I hope the Iranian regime, for instance—we see a ready willingness that it will take the very best of the report and build on in Turkey to work with the United States, us and other the relationships that are, as I said, already very strong. countries to provide missile defence protection. Given the unwelcome uncertainty that we are experiencing with nuclear proliferation, that is something we should 5.46 pm welcome. It cannot be an easy decision for Turkey to Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I take, but it is one that I welcome. welcome this debate, which has been initiated as a result As for Syria, the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike of the hard work of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, Gapes), who is not in his place, talked about Turkey’s and which provides an opportunity to talk about relations remarkable restraint despite severe provocation, including between the United Kingdom and Turkey. There is 1001 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1002

[Mr David Burrowes] responsibilities and is a guarantor power with legal responsibilities. It is important that Britain steps up to consensus across the House on the importance of having the plate. Over nearly four decades, this Parliament has a positive relationship with Turkey, given its strategic seen some seemingly intractable problems in divided position. In that context, we have heard references to countries and countries at war, yet they have been Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and beyond. Given Turkey’s solved. Cyprus, however, is still divided and is not geographical location between east and west, between settled. As parliamentarians, we must do all we can to Europe, north Africa and the middle east, it makes raise the issue of Cyprus and not sidestep it. We must perfect sense for us to have a constructive relationship see it as central to making further progress towards with it. positive relations between Britain and Turkey. Turkey’s economic importance has also been mentioned. It is not just a matter of Cyprus alone, as the manner We need to focus on its vibrant, dynamic economy, and in which we abide by international agreements, Security I welcome our Government’s efforts to promote and Council resolutions and so forth also matters. How make progress on the bilateral trade relations between Turkey responds to judgments of the European Court our two countries. Allied with the Foreign Office’s remit of Human Rights matters, too. Such judgments go in those areas is its remit to encourage improvements in beyond, and have resonance beyond, Cyprus. the fields of democratisation and the adherence to Reference has been made to Turkey’s record on human human rights. Such improvements are vital not only for rights. One has to acknowledge that particular and Turkey’s relationships with other countries but for the significant progress has been made, but concerns remain people of Turkey and the wider region. about the free press and freedom of expression. We I count myself as a friend of Turkey. I often speak to have heard about journalists who have recently been members of the Turkish-speaking diaspora in my north detained and we have heard about the disproportionate London constituency, but it is easy to place too much number of Turkish cases that have gone through to emphasis on the Government of that country, and on the ECHR. whether one is a friend of that country. I have heard A number of relatives of missing persons lost in the people making strong criticisms of Turkish Government Cyprus conflict will come here next week. They come policy, but that does not mean that they cannot be a here every year. They can be seen on the green outside friend of Turkey. I judge my friendship on the basis of Parliament, usually with pictures of their lost relatives. the people of the country, particularly those I meet in What has also been lost is basic information and truth my constituency, who make an enormous contribution about their loved ones’ whereabouts. Progress has been to this country. I want to be a friend, but perhaps also a made in Cyprus on a bi-communal basis to find the critical friend, of Turkey. bones of the lost and to gain some element of truth. Unfortunately, however, there is a barrier, as they cannot Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): I have get to the truth in areas under the control of Turkish chaired the all-party parliamentary group on Turkey forces. They cannot get information relating to relatives since the beginning of this Parliament, and I am proud who went over to Turkey. The ECHR has said clearly to do so. Given the hon. Gentleman’s desire to continue that relevant information should be given to these relatives. his friendship with people in his constituency who are Some of these people are citizens and constituents of originally from Turkey and with the Turkish people mine and of other hon. Members. Year in, year out, more generally, would he consider joining the all-party they demand some element of truth, some information group, if he is not already a member of it? about basic human rights: they need to know what happened to their loves ones. The House has set up Mr Burrowes: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the inquiries into missing persons, but in this case we are debate. I am indeed a member of the group. I was talking about people who have been missing for nearly recently invited to an all-party group visit, but if the four decades. Their relatives need to know the basic hon. Gentleman is looking for names, I am not sure that truth. I will be able to attend. My family is going to visit I am chair of the all-party Cyprus group, which will Turkey later in the summer. shortly conduct an inquiry to see whether we can support In waxing lyrical about the positives of this latest the good work going on under UN auspices in Cyprus report, there is a but. The “but” relates to Cyprus. I do to speed up this process. Turkey can help by abiding by not ask for your leniency, Mr Speaker, in concentrating the Court’s judgment and allowing relevant information on Cyprus, as I see it as very much key to UK-Turkey to be given to relatives and to the authorities. relations. The report’s reference to Cyprus was minimal. Another inquiry I have been involved in seeks to I take the Chairman’s point that the Select Committee emphasise the positives in Turkey. I chaired an inquiry did not want to get too intervention-focused on issues into the persecution of Christians in Iran for Christians surrounding Cyprus, but if we are considering UK-Turkey in Parliament, which revealed the appalling abuses of relations, Cyprus is very important. As paragraph 195 brave people who had had to leave the country because of the report states: of the persecution of themselves and their families. A “Turkey’s EU accession process is effectively hostage to the number have been given refuge in Turkey. We should reaching of a settlement on Cyprus.” welcome that, and acknowledge its importance for Iranian I understand that point, but the word “hostage” creates Christians, some of whom I hope to meet when I visit the impression that Turkey is a victim. The victims of Turkey. We should also note that Syrians have sought the whole Cyprus issue are the people of Cyprus—both refuge there. Greek and Turkish Cypriots, and, indeed, other Let me return to the issue of Cyprus. We must not communities on the island. Those victims should be our tolerate the intolerable. The status quo is unacceptable— focus, particularly when this country has historic unacceptable to us, given our relations with Turkey. We 1003 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1004 in Europe should not have allowed the existence of a looted, became uninhabited, and has been decaying for divided capital and a divided island for so long. An area nearly 40 years. However, we have the opportunity to in the north of Cyprus is the most heavily militarised in accept United Nations Security Council resolutions 550 the world, which is extraordinary. We should not accept and 789, which call for Varosha to be under the control that for the duration of the six-month presidency, saying of the UN. If we can support Turkey in resolving this “We shall just have to park it for six months, and see issue so that people can return to Varosha, it will create what the Irish can do when they have the presidency.”It confidence and help greatly. If human rights are respected, cannot be right that Turkey does not recognise Cyprus information on missing people is given, the return to as a sovereign nation. Britain does not have a remote Varosha is supported and the natural gas question is responsibility; as I have said before, it is a guarantor addressed, we might be able to reunite Cyprus, which power, and Cyprus has every right to take up the would be good for Cyprus, good for Turkey and good presidency which affirms its membership of the European for UK-Turkey relations. Union and the sovereignty of the whole island. As has been reported in the press, the Turkish 6pm Government recently said: Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): There are “no ministry or organisation of the Turkish Republic will take not many benefits to being a Back Bencher, but one is part in any activity that will be presided by southern Cyprus.” that we can sometimes ruffle feathers and say what we I would expect our Government to agree that that is think and, above all, challenge the received wisdom. I intolerable and unacceptable. Turkey wants to join accept that the majority view in this debate is that the Europe—it wants to join the club—but it must accept accession of Turkey to the EU would be a good thing. I the rules which include a rotating presidency. Britain agree that, in many ways, that is indeed the case, and it supports Turkey’s accession, but Turkey must not only would be churlish and remiss of me not to acknowledge recognise the Republic of Cyprus but fulfil its obligation the very important point that Turkey is a major trading under the Ankara protocol to allow Cypriot ships to partner, with the 17th or 18th largest economy in the use Turkish ports. world and growth that is five times the EU average— I want to be positive. The need for creativity has been although that is not particularly difficult to achieve mentioned, and both the report and my hon. Friend the nowadays. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) referred Turkey has made progress in many key areas, and it to the opportunities presented by the hydrocarbon reserves. was the eastern outpost of NATO command through They are a new dynamic, and they are being explored in the difficult years of the cold war. As my hon. Friend Cyprus’s exclusive economic zone for the benefit of the the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart)—who is no whole island and all its communities. That is crucial. longer in his place—made clear, it has been a loyal The reserves are a natural resource for Cyprus alone, supporter of both the UK and the United States over not for the guarantor powers. As the report says, that many years. The strategic importance of Turkey is not natural resource could facilitate a settlement and could in doubt either, as it stands at the juncture of the west, enable Cyprus to rely less on the financial sector, which the near east and the middle east. is increasingly fragile and volatile, on the recent EU I can well understand why Turkey still harbours bail-outs, and on the good will of Russian banks and strong ambitions to join the EU. The fact that that is in interests. our strategic interests is based on two presuppositions, It is also important to understand the wider dynamic: however: that we should filter out issues other than the yes, a dynamic to support a settlement, but also one economic progress of Turkey, and that we accept, to a relating to the wider region which involves Turkey and certain degree, that our strategic geopolitical interests Israel. There are agreements between the Republic of are the same as those of the US. It has always been in Cyprus and Israel, but the dynamic needs to be wider. the US strategic interest for Turkey to be a bulwark There is an opportunity to provide a big source of against potential Islamist difficulties, whether in the energy for the region, and a source of security as well. form of violence or the exertion of influence in the We should welcome that development, and, given our sub-region. expertise in this country, I hope that we can make real I accept all that, and that Prime Minister Erdogan is progress in supporting that resource for the benefit of making a good fist of reform in the country, but it is Cypriots. important to strike some notes of concern on human We also need to recognise that Turkey should not rights, free speech, crime, justice and immigration, as threaten Cyprus’s sovereign rights to explore and exploit well as on an issue that should not be dismissed lightly—as hydrocarbon reserves in an exclusive economic zone. the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) That is unacceptable, because that is threatening the did earlier—which is the continuing affront and offence very independence of the resource and Cyprus’s legal of the systematic denial of the world’s first modern rights within the exclusive economic zone. We must not genocide. That word was invented in 1943 to describe say that we have been fatigued by the Cyprus problem what happened in the Ottoman empire, beginning in for so long that we will leave it to be solved by Cypriots. April 1915, to between 600,000 and 1.5 million ethnic That should indeed happen, but we must exercise our Armenians. The fact that there is still that systematic responsibilities. denial causes great concern to many people across the Another opportunity is presented by the Greek-Cypriot world, most recently in France. Varosha section of Famagusta, a small town on the east I am also mindful of the fact that insufficient work coast of Cyprus. Anyone who goes there will see the has been done in examining the possible ramifications barbed wire. Varosha was frozen in time after being of Turkey’s accession to the EU. I commend to the overrun by Turkish forces in 1974. It was sealed off, House the comprehensive Home Affairs Committee 1005 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1006

[Mr Stewart Jackson] trafficking of heroin and synthetic drugs and the trafficking of cocaine to Europe from South America via Turkey report of last July, “Implications for the Justice and and the Balkans. It has described “very high” levels of Home Affairs area of the accession of Turkey to the human trafficking to Turkey and high levels of trafficking European Union”. It made some very important points, through the country, as well as people smuggling and but before I discuss them, let me point out that there are other criminal activities including fraud, firearms trafficking, other areas of the criminal justice system that should money laundering and copyright offences. cause us concern. One of them is the ill-treatment of Turkey has become a prominent stepping stone in prisoners in Turkish prisons. The Amnesty International irregular flows of migrants coming from further afield 2012 report stated that allegations of torture persist and who aim to enter the European Union. The Turkish that there are ineffective investigations into alleged human ambassador to the United Kingdom recently told the rights abuses by state officials. Home Affairs Committee that nearly 800,000 illegal As has been made clear by my hon. Friend the immigrants have been apprehended while attempting to Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), cross Turkish territory over the past 15 years. By October no progress has been made in protecting the rights of 2010, 46% of all irregular immigration detected at the children in the judicial system. There are 47 states EU external border took place at the land border whose citizens can apply to the European Court of between Greece and Turkey and the authorities estimated Human Rights, and at the end of 2011 Turkey applied that up to 350 migrants were attempting to cross the for 10.5% of the 151,600 cases pending, requiring a 12.5 km land border near the Greek city of Orestiada judicial decision.The Foreign Affairs Committee’s report every day. highlights concerns about Turkey’s domestic judicial capacity and the major backlog of cases, with 1.4 million EU accession would have implications. The length of criminal cases and more than 1 million civil cases pending the external land border with Georgia, Armenia, at the end of 2010. Azerbaijan, Iraq, Iran and Syria would put great stresses and strains on the EU’s external border, given that the Serious concerns have been expressed over many EU has already been critical of the Turkish border years about the media and freedom of expression. In security capacity. The Minister may wish to comment addition, women’s rights and equality remain a persistent on the fact that there has been no impact analysis of concern, particularly, even though the numbers are Turkish accession on future migration trends. We need decreasing, in the context of honour killings, domestic to take a serious look at that, even though accession violence, sexual assault and forced marriage. The Foreign may be many years away. Affairs Committee’s report, like my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes), rightly It is appropriate to mention the Armenian genocide, refers to religious freedom in Turkey, and states: which is an issue of great hurt and offence to Armenian “We recommend that the FCO should remain vigilant on people across the world. It began on 24 April 1915 and, issues of religious freedom and discrimination and should ensure with the systematic deportation and murder of up to that its Turkish partners are clear about its stance in this respect.” 1.5 million people, it is the first modern example of Not so long ago, Human Rights Watch said: genocide. Armenians perished as a result of execution, starvation, disease, the harsh environment and physical “As the Justice and Development Party (AKP) government abuse. A people who had lived in Turkey for nearly focused on promoting Turkey’s regional interests in response to the pro-democracy Arab Spring movements, human rights suffered 3,000 years lost their homeland and were decimated in setbacks at home. The government has not prioritized human the first large-scale genocide of the 20th century. I rights reforms since 2005, and freedom of expression and association concede that that was 97 years ago, but it is difficult to have both been damaged by the ongoing prosecution and incarceration accept the fact that the Turkish Government refuse to of journalists, writers, and hundreds of Kurdish political activists”, countenance the idea that it is an incontestable historical particularly through the misuse of the overly broad fact. terrorism laws that, to give him his due, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), the Mr Walter: I hear what my hon. Friend says. For Chairman of the Committee, has mentioned. many years, historians have tried to define genocide. He is trying to condemn the Government of the modern Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Will the hon. Turkish state post-1923 for a crime that was, or was not, Gentleman give way? committed by the Ottoman empire, of which both Armenia and the Turkic peoples were part. Mr Jackson: No, I will not, if the hon. Gentleman does not mind, as he has not been present for the whole debate. Mr Jackson: I yield to no one in my enormous respect for my colleague in the Inter-Parliamentary I have concerns about justice and home affairs. I find Union and his great love for Turkey and affinity for the it quite astonishing that the Home Office—or any country. I bear no malice as a candid friend to the Government Department—has not looked in any systematic wonderful, decent people of Turkey but I quote Leo way at how many people would be likely to move from Kuper, who was an eminent academic at the University Turkey to other European countries if the freedom of of California, Los Angeles and said: movement directive applied and after any transition period that was put in place. Figures ranging between “The Armenian genocide is a contemporary current issue, 500,000 and 4.4 million are often cited. given the persistent aggressive denial of the crime by the Turkish government—notwithstanding its own judgment in courts martial Europol, the EU’s law enforcement agency, has stated after the first World War, that its leading ministers had deliberately that Turkish criminal groups are significantly involved planned and carried out the annihilation of Armenians, with the in various forms of organised criminality, including the participation of many regional administrators.” 1007 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1008

My point is not that that series of events did not happen we learned just how powerful and determined the at the end of the Ottoman empire in Anatolia, which is Americans were at promoting business in other countries. now part of modern Turkey, but that a key issue in The American diplomatic service is robust and determined assessing the suitability and fitness of a country seeking to promote businesses. We even heard that ambassadors to be part of a club founded on the bedrock of legality, were present at various meetings for banks in competition fairness and equality is the fact that it should acknowledge with other banks, including one based in Britain. It is past mistakes and crimes that took place almost 100 years important that we recognise the strength and the power ago. In that respect, just as the Turkish Government of our diplomatic corps in promoting business, and that have to move on the issue of Cyprus and countenance certainly applies to Turkey. the right of the Cypriot people to self-determination, As one or two other Members have pointed out in democracy and freedom, they must accept that the connection with energy, the European Union has another Armenian genocide happened. They have to apologise interest in Turkey because of energy development and and move forward, as happened in Northern Ireland, other industrial and entrepreneurial activity. It is critical South Africa and elsewhere, with a truth and reconciliation that we do not lose the opportunity to bind Turkey into process to put to rest that disastrous, despicable, appalling the European Union at a time when that is feasible. series of events almost 100 years ago. Feasibility can be judged on several criteria, one of We have had an interesting debate. I do not agree which is human rights. I recognise the point made by with everyone who has spoken, but these issues are of my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) such great importance and clarity historically that they that 10% of all cases currently before the European must be raised. Court of Human Rights are from Turkey. The highest number of cases are from Russia, to which Turkey is second. That is a strong signal that Turkey must improve 6.13 pm its human rights record, and we need to make sure that Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I am pleased to be it is one of the tools that we bargain with, in order to able to speak in this debate, which is on an interesting encourage Turkey to think about human rights so that subject. It has been an honour to listen to many speeches, it can join the European Union at some time. not least from the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs A change of Government in Turkey has altered the Committee, who introduced the debate and presides tendency to think western rather than eastern. We should over a Committee that does some really good work, recognise in our deliberations about Turkey that the which should be recognised. new feeling in the Turkish Foreign Ministry is that, I have been to Turkey—mainly Istanbul, which is a although it would be a good idea to join the European vibrant, exciting city. I went there several years ago, Union, there are other options. We should bear that in partly because some friends of mine were moving their mind as we consider how we might tackle the issue. business interests there. I found it fascinating to watch Many speakers in the debate mentioned that France in how they were integrating with the Turkish business particular and Germany are slightly concerned about community and how Turkey was becoming quite an Turkey’s membership of the European Union. Germany, exciting place in which to invest. I did invest, incidentally, with its tradition of guest workers, will clearly have to in a fez. The only useful thing that did was to alert all think carefully about that, not just because of the other traders to the fact that I was a tourist and should history of that tradition, but because of the number of be approached immediately to see whether I would buy Turks currently in Germany. anything else. France is an interesting case. I think that we should I have also visited Cyprus and there I took note of take a leaf out of Edward Heath’s book—oddly enough— the partition of that country between Greece and Turkey. because he recognised that getting Britain into the I know that it is an important obstacle to Turkey’s European Union depended not on persuading the Germans eventual membership of the European Union, which I or any other country, but on persuading the country hope will be a reality some time in the future. that was least keen on it, which was France. That is why We have heard a little about the Ottoman empire, and he was so right to visit President Pompidou and ensure quite right too. One thing to remember about the Ottoman that he squared that off before going to the other nation empire is that its rise, its life and above all its fall were states, unlike Harold Wilson, who did it in exactly the interesting to the rest of Europe. We should recognise opposite direction, which inevitably ended in failure. that we are influenced by what goes on there, and we Turkey has some really interesting foreign policy should be attempting to influence that area now. On issues that we need to think about swiftly and carefully. that premise I shall make a number of points, not just The first is that it has changed its mind about two key about foreign policy, but about the economic situation countries in its region. It used to be a pretty strong in Turkey, which I have already mentioned. A country supporter of the Assad regime and the Syrian Government as big as Turkey, with a relatively vibrant economy—even in general, but obviously now it is not. It is learning a decline in growth rate will still give it a growth rate what to do, reacting to changes and is itself a change higher than ours for some time—is one that we should agent. Likewise, Turkey’s attitude to Israel has changed be cultivating as a potential partner in the European in recent years, demonstrating that it is thinking about Union. We must develop trade and it is important that its position in the region, which is something that we focus on doing that. Britain and the European Union as a whole need to I agree with some of the speakers who emphasised understand, because Turkey will not sit there idly while some of the difficulties that that process entails. This the rest of us watch and wait. That is yet another reason morning I was at a breakfast discussing trade with why we should be very sensible in how we judge and China. There we heard about the importance of our calibrate exactly what we do and say to Turkey with diplomats and our embassies in promoting trade, and regard to foreign policy. 1009 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1010

[Neil Carmichael] the southern Soviet Union, where there are a number of Turkic states; and we see its influence through its One thing that is critical, but which has not really relationships with Europe. been mentioned in the debate in the context I am Europe has a problem, however, because we have speaking about, is the fact that Turkey currently has an tended to take the Turks too much for granted. They Islamic Government, but a moderate Islamic Government. were staunch, solid allies of NATO for decades, and we Therefore, we should have a relationship with Turkey to would have been glad enough to have them side by side influence the rest of the region through a Government had we been in conflict with the Soviet Union; now, we who have some semblance of democracy and some are a little more fussy and critical of our relationship interest in the west as well as the east. In other words, than we were when the Turks were very much our allies Turkey is a conduit to the places where we need more in the cold war. influence than we currently have. It seems to me that One can argue whether Turkey should or should not we should recognise that description of Turkey and join the European Union, but the promise has been apply the logical consequences. If we feel that it is a made, and on occasions it has seen other states fast-tracked friendly Islamic country, we should be cultivating our into the EU, while for decades it has expected to join friendship with it. That is one of the most important but has not yet been given that opportunity. reasons why we should be talking about Turkey in a constructive way. I do not pretend that it will be easy for a large and still largely Muslim country to come into the EU, but I will draw these threads together, because it seems to the promise has been made and at some point the EU me that there is something very potent about recognising has to deal with the situation straightforwardly, otherwise that human rights, economic interest and, in effect, we may end up with extremists in that country reacting good governance can be tied together. We can then against engagement with the European Union. demonstrate that the European Union, when it can request, prove and then expect all those things to be Turkey is a young and fast-growing country, it is saluted for membership, is making progress. However, certainly growing much faster than those in the eurozone we can also take those three things and say to Turkey and it is one of the main beneficiaries of the fact that its and the rest of the region, “These are the things we near neighbour, Greece, has the euro, because many want and that are better for you, with regard to economic Brits now go to Turkey and enjoy the benefits of a very development, political stability and the recognition of cost-effective holiday. There is a great deal to benefit states.” Of course, the situation in the middle east is the this country if we increase our trade and engagement obvious and important example of that. It is just like with Turkey, but I do not mean playing at it; I mean the Helsinki accords in 1975, which effectively allowed having a long-term dialogue with the Turks. in eastern Europe the recognition of human rights, I was pleased when my right hon. Friend the Prime economic interests and good governance, and the key Minister, after he was elected, went to Turkey, and that driver then turned out to be human rights. That was the President Obama, after he was elected, realised how key driver motivating the signatories to the Helsinki important Turkey was and went to address its Parliament, accords, and the ones who were least confident and but we cannot just pop up and make the odd speech; we least free, with regard to their political rights, were the need long-term engagement with the Turks, because ones who ended up using them to get their freedoms there is still a lot of common ground and there is great eventually. potential for exports. Turkey is more likely to be a force Through a combination of recognising that Turkey for good than for harm. Of course it has to make has economic interests that are akin to ours, that is has progress on human rights, but its history of democracy regional interests and is a moderate Islamic state that and of human rights is rather more recent than ours, we can talk to and use as a conduit, and that there is and, although it is improving, it will take a while yet. enormous economic potential not just in Turkey but in This has been a worthwhile debate, and the Committee the vicinity, we should think carefully about how, in the has produced a worthwhile report, which I commend to long run, Turkey can become a member of the European many in the House. We need to do a lot more to engage Union. It will not happen overnight or within a few with states such as Turkey, which are good allies, good years, but we should work for it, because it will mean friends and could be good customers, promoting and good foreign policy in the long run. sustaining many more jobs in the UK, as they grow at a much faster rate than our near neighbours in the European 6.25 pm Union. Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I commend the 6.28 pm Foreign Affairs Committee on its report and, indeed, the measured and sensible way in which my Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): I am proud, as a hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, to be associated Ottaway) has introduced today’s debate. We do not with its report. debate these subjects enough, and we need to discuss Turkey is a country that we should focus on a great our relationship with foreign states—particularly those deal more than we have in recent years—a country that that have a long record of friendship with, and are has been a staunch ally as a member of NATO, and a allies of, the United Kingdom—a lot more in this country that we have always had good relations with in Chamber. modern times. As my hon. Friend the Member for As we have heard, Turkey is a bridge, and a bridge in Poole (Mr Syms) said, we have in recent times taken it a number of directions. We saw its intervention in Libya somewhat for granted. However, as a friend of Turkey’s, and in other parts of the middle east—I think for the we should give it the honest advice that it needs during good; we see its influence growing in parts of what was these developing years. It applied to join the European 1011 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1012

Union some time ago, but it has not yet been accepted. I key NATO partner, given not only its geography but the was part of a delegation visiting Turkey last October size of its military. It has the second largest army in and the clear message that I picked up, from speaking to NATO in terms of personnel, second only to the United many people, was that they wanted to join the European States. Turkey is a democratic, secular Muslim country Union for reasons of acceptability, to be part of the that offers hope and inspiration to countries in the family of European nations, and not necessarily for region—especially those going through radical economic reasons; it is, of course, already part of a transformation as a result of the Arab spring. In the customs union. middle east, Turkey is central to securing stability across We must be candid friends to Turkey. We must ensure the region and, crucially, to solving the conflict in Syria that, whatever decision it makes about the European and securing a nuclear-free Iran. Union—and it is its decision whether to join—it is given Economically, Turkey is a rapidly rising force. In the the advice of a friend who has been a member of that past 10 years, its economy has grown, on average, by organisation for many years. I hope that Turkey will more than 5% a year. Its gross domestic product has continue wanting to be part of the family of European tripled. Trade and direct investment have increased nations and carry on its tradition of wanting a secular dramatically. By 2050, it is set to be one of the world’s society and western values. top 10 economies, with a vibrant, young and growing I hope that we will respect the wishes of the people in population, more than 50% of whom are under 30. Turkey. I think that there is a feeling there that they Turkey is already an important member of the G20 have, in some ways, been pushed aside by us in Europe and its influence is growing. Its economic rise is impressive, and that we have not given them the respect that they especially given the dark economic days that it suffered deserve. We accepted the country’s support during the in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Turkey’s democratic cold war, of course, but now it feels slightly disjointed. development is also impressive given the military dominance The British Government and all Governments in the of the past century, with four coups in the past 50 years. European Union need to understand that. The so-called deep state has now been successfully I commend the Foreign Affairs Committee report dismantled. and its findings. I reiterate my steadfast support for Given Turkey’s ever-increasing prominence and Turkey as it continues to navigate successfully towards a importance, we fully support the continued strengthening bright future as part of the family of democratic nations of the UK’s bilateral relationship. Labour Members are in the European region of the world. proud that in 2007 the then Prime Minister agreed the first UK-Turkey strategic partnership. In 2010, British 6.31 pm exports to Turkey totalled over £1 billion. About 2 million British nationals visit Turkey every year. There are over Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): 150,000 Turkish nationals and about 500,000 people of I welcome today’s debate on UK-Turkey relations and Turkish origin in the UK. In cities across the UK, we Turkey’s regional role. I congratulate the Foreign Affairs can see evidence of the contribution that these Turkish Committee, of which I was briefly a member, on its communities make to the fabric of British society. There excellent report on the issue. continues to be a strong cultural exchange between our Right hon. and hon. Members on both sides have countries. We therefore support the Select Committee’s made thoughtful contributions. The Select Committee assertion that the Government are correct to seek to Chair gave a comprehensive overview of the report. My strengthen the UK’s relations with Turkey as a strategic hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) partner. This partnership covers agreements on a range underlined the need to resolve the Turkish question, of issues including education, defence, regional stability and the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr Walter) and culture—from managing migration flows to the stressed that Europe’s neighbourhood is Turkey’s development of low-carbon technologies. neighbourhood. My right hon. Friend the Member for We welcome the Foreign Office’s commitment to Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) reminded us that we can be increasing its diplomatic presence in the country. We both a friend and critic of Turkey’s. The hon. Member also welcome the recent military co-operation treaty for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) demonstrated, agreed and signed by the Government and the Turkish as ever, that he is the Foreign Office’s keenest human Government. The Select Committee is right to note that resources critic. the strategic partnership is a means of measuring the We also heard from my right hon. Friend the Member success of the Government’s policy on our bilateral for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) and the hon. Members relations with Turkey.Two years on from his Government’s for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert), for Enfield, launch of the renewed strategic partnership, I look Southgate (Mr Burrowes), for Peterborough (Mr Jackson), forward to hearing the Minister reflect on the key for Stroud (Neil Carmichael), for Poole (Mr Syms) and achievements to date and the key objectives for the for Romford (Andrew Rosindell). years to come. Turkey is vital to the UK, geographically, strategically Alongside Turkey’s economic rise, its regional and and economically. Geographically, it is at the crossroads international prominence has also been significantly between east and west and it remains one of the most enhanced. I echo the comments of the hon. Member for important transit countries for the movement of goods St Austell and Newquay in saying that Labour Members and people anywhere in the world. It is as important commend Turkey for its ongoing commitment to the now as when the merchants of the silk road travelled the mission in Afghanistan. Turkey has supported many country exchanging goods, philosophy and culture between NATO, UK and EU foreign policy objectives. Today, Europe and the east. crucially, Turkey is central to resolving the horrific Strategically, Turkey is its region’s rising power and it conflict in Syria. We welcome Turkey’s involvement in is vital to the UK, Europe and the United States. It is a the Friends of Syria group; it hosted the group’s second 1013 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1014

[Emma Reynolds] We are concerned about the Select Committee’s finding that some improvements in human rights have been meeting in April. We welcome the steps that Turkey has reversed, especially with regard to the limiting of media taken to encourage dialogue between opposition leaders freedoms and freedom of expression. To echo the comments by hosting talks in Istanbul. Turkey has accepted over of the hon. Member for St Austell and Newquay again, 36,000 Syrian refugees and, crucially, it has offered a there are also concerns about LGBT rights. In its recent safe haven for defectors from the Syrian military. As a accession report, the European Parliament urges the fellow member of NATO, we welcome Turkey’s moderation Turkish Government to ensure that LGBT rights are in its reaction to Syria’s unprovoked and unacceptable guaranteed by the law and effectively enforced, and that attack on a Turkish aircraft on 22 June. As my hon. they are respected by the police. Friend the Member for Ilford South emphasised, Turkey’s The Select Committee is right that a settlement on restraint in this matter was exemplary. the relationship between the Turkish state and Turkey’s On Iran, Turkey has been proactive in trying to find Kurdish community is vital. It is of great concern that solutions to securing a nuclear-free Iran. It recently over the past year the level of violence in that decades-long hosted a P5 plus 1 meeting in Istanbul and this week it conflict has increased. It is estimated that over the past has been hosting a meeting of technical experts. 30 years 45,000 lives have been lost. As recently as last month, 34 people were killed at a military border post. Turkey’s wider role in the region is also important. However, there are also encouraging signs. As my hon. The hon. Member for North Dorset stressed its influence Friend the Member for Ilford South outlined, there is a in the Balkans. The Kosovan Foreign Minister recently greater level of co-operation between the Turkish praised Turkey for its positive role in the region in Government and the Kurdish regional government in recognition of its efforts in helping to establish better northern Iraq, including plans to build an oil pipeline relations between Serbia and Kosova—a relationship between the two areas. I echo the question put to the that we and, I am sure, the Government will want to be Minister by the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee: improved. what do the Government think the prospects are for a Following the dramatic transformations triggered by settlement on this issue in the months and years to the Arab spring, Turkey played a leading role in supporting come? democratic change. The Turkish Prime Minister was the first international leader to call for President Mubarak Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I have not to stand down. The Select Committee is right to underline heard the whole of my hon. Friend’s speech, but she has the importance of a democratic, secular and Muslim not touched on the Cyprus problem in the last part of state such as Turkey acting as an inspiration to moderate it. I know that the matter has been discussed in the political forces in north Africa and the middle east. debate, but she has not mentioned it. Will she say something about Cyprus? Finally, let me turn to Turkey’s EU membership. We welcome the continued cross-party consensus in this Emma Reynolds: I thank my hon. Friend for his late House in favour of Turkey’s EU membership. The intervention. There has been quite a lot of discussion of Select Committee rightly focuses on this issue in the the Cyprus question. It is clearly an obstacle to progress second part of its report. When Labour was in government, in Turkey’s accession negotiations. I referred to it somewhat we were a strong advocate of Turkey’s accession, and obliquely when I talked about political problems, rather we are pleased that the current Government have continued than problems relating to the acquis communautaire, in this policy. However, as several right hon. and hon. Turkey’s membership negotiations. Members have pointed out, we must recognise the difficulties in this area, not all of which relate to the acquis In conclusion, today’s debate has underlined the many communautaire. It is regrettable that for the next six reasons why Turkey is an important strategic and economic months the negotiations will be suspended. It is encouraging partner to the UK. As I touched on earlier, as a result of that relations between Turkey and France seem to be on the Arab spring there is a high degree of hope for a a better footing since the election of François Hollande democratic future in the middle east and north Africa, in May. President Hollande has accepted the invitation but also a high degree of uncertainty. The ongoing crisis of Prime Minister Erdogan to visit Turkey, which will in Syria and the problems with Iran serve only to be the first such visit by a French President for 20 years. exacerbate that instability. Turkey is a vital ally in that key region and beyond. It is a stable, democratic, secular, There are also problems with regard to the acquis Islamic state, a beacon of democracy and an inspiration communautaire, as was highlighted by the European for countries such as Egypt and Tunisia. For all those Commission’s recent progress report. Turkey has a great reasons, it is clear that Turkey is a strategic partner of deal of progress to make on human rights, as has been growing importance to the UK. I look forward to pointed out by several hon. Members, in particular with hearing how the Minister and the Government will regard to the freedom of expression and the reform of continue to strengthen our bilateral relationship with the judiciary. I welcome the Select Committee’s this important country. recommendations in that area, in particular that the Foreign Office should ensure that Turkey is left in no 6.44 pm doubt that the shortcomings in its justice system are damaging to the country’s international reputation. We The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I first also agree with the recommendation that the Foreign pay tribute to the Foreign Affairs Committee for a Office should suggest that the Turkish Government report that, even by its ordinarily high standards, is encourage prosecutors and judges to exercise restraint exceptional in its breadth and significance. It ranges in the use of pre-trial detention while the reforms to the across many aspects of both the UK’s bilateral relationship justice system are being carried out. with Turkey and Turkey’s growing self-confidence and 1015 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1016 influence in her region and the world. I congratulate my The hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard asked me about Turkey’s rather fraught relationship Ottaway) and the other members of the Committee on with Israel. We must acknowledge that this is a sensitive the report and on securing the debate. issue for both countries, but the UK believes strongly I welcome, too, the Committee’s recognition of the that both should take steps towards reconciliation, because Government’ efforts to deepen our already strong bilateral it is in both their interests and would be an important relationship, building on the strategic partnership that contribution to greater regional stability and the broader the two Prime Ministers signed in 2010. President Gul’s middle east peace process. state visit last November was a great success, and eight The general point about the need for an effort to months on, when we look at the scale of co-operation improve relations also applies to Turkey’s relationship between the United Kingdom and Turkey across the with Armenia. As my hon. Friend the Member for board—from trade and investment to justice and home Peterborough (Mr Jackson), pointed out, there is a affairs to our approach to the conflict in Syria—it is history of grief and appalling human rights abuses in clear that our relationship has never been stronger. the early part of the 20th century. Modern Turkey and In the time allotted to me, I wish to try to respond to Armenia need to find a way to live together as neighbours the various points that Members have raised. I start and friends as soon as possible. with foreign policy, because the report and the debate Commercially, Turkey has a great story to tell—a have highlighted the truth that, today, Turkey matters growing economy, good demographics, a strong on the world stage to an increasing extent. She is a vital entrepreneurial spirit and an increasing openness to foreign policy partner for the UK, increasingly driving international partnership and investment—and there forward international co-operation in regions that are are growing opportunities for British businesses, which critical to this country’s interests, notably the middle we will look to exploit. The Prime Minister has committed east. As a prosperous, modern democracy with a largely the Government to doubling trade with Turkey by 2015. but not entirely Muslim population, Turkey continues To this end, we have set up a joint economic and trade to act as an inspiration to countries affected by the committee that meets annually and serves as an official Arab spring. forum for Ministers and officials from both countries to In Syria, Turkey is playing a vital role within the explore how to enhance that commercial relationship. international community to exert pressure on the Assad At the same time, we have established with the Turks regime to end its violence. The support of the Turkish a chief executive officer forum to bring together business Government for opposition groups based in that country leaders to discuss how to increase trade and investment can play an important part in the transition to a peaceful flows. Finally, we have set up a knowledge partnership, and fully democratic Government in Syria. We support launched by my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary the active role that Turkey is playing, including its when he visited Turkey last September, the purpose of decision to host a ministerial meeting of the core group which is to promote science, innovation, entrepreneurship last month in Istanbul. Although it was not mentioned and investment between the UK and Turkey. All three in the debate, it is right to commend the care that forums will meet later this year. Turkey is providing to more than 35,000 refugees from The trade statistics so far demonstrate that we are on Syria who have fled the violence in their own country. target to reach our goal. Bilateral trade with Turkey As my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Foreign exceeded £9 billion in 2011—up nearly 40% from 2009—and Affairs Committee pointed out, the shooting down of a last year our exports to Turkey increased by 20%, reaching Turkish aircraft on 22 June highlights the risks posed to £3.7 billion. My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith all Syria’s neighbours by the continuing crisis there. In and The Border (Rory Stewart) was interested in some her response to the incident, Turkey has shown considerable examples. Invensys has succeeded in its bid for an restraint. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary £800 million rail upgrading project in Turkey. Diageo is, has condemned the Syrian regime’s actions in the strongest I believe, one of the leading raki manufacturers in terms, as has NATO, and all NATO allies stand together Turkey, and Rolls-Royce, Thales and Ultra Electronics with Turkey in solidarity and will continue to work have been successful in the field of defence contracts. closely with her in the months ahead. To answer the Recent visits to Turkey by the lord mayor of London, question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for St by my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary, the Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert), there has been Minister for Universities and Science and my noble no discussion of invoking article 5. Friend the Minister of State for Trade and Investment, As my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset Lord Green, are all helping to intensify our economic (Mr Walter) pointed out, Turkey has increasing regional ties. The first joint UK Trade and Investment-CBI influence, and an alliance with Turkey can therefore mission to Turkey, specifically aimed at medium-sized provide extra diplomatic reach to the United Kingdom businesses, was led by Lord Green and John Cridland in and Europe as a whole. Although Syria has been our April. We chose Turkey as the first global destination immediate focus, we continue to build our foreign policy co- for this type of trade mission because of the opportunities operation with Turkey on areas such as Afghanistan—my Turkey can offer to UK business. hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay Energy brings together both political and economic rightly paid tribute to Turkey’s role in ISAF—Iran, the interests. Turkey can be an important energy transit western Balkans, as the hon. Member for Wolverhampton route, bringing non-Russian gas from the Caspian to North East (Emma Reynolds) said, and Somalia. We Europe—something that is in Europe and the UK’s will look for all opportunities to deepen such co-operation strategic interest and of direct benefit to British Petroleum, over the coming months, both bilaterally and within the its being the major energy investor in Azerbaijan. We EU, where we welcomed Foreign Minister Davutoglu’s also welcome the agreement between Turkey and attendance at the March Foreign Affairs Council. Azerbaijan, dated 26 June, on a trans-Anatolian pipeline. 1017 UK-Turkey Relations4 JULY 2012 UK-Turkey Relations 1018

[Mr David Lidington] I have very little time left, so I will write to those Members who made points about human rights if I do The opportunities that Turkey provides in the field of not have time to deal with them now. I do want to energy make even more frustrating the fact that the respond. energy chapter in Turkey’s EU accession negotiations One of the most important aspects of the accession remains blocked, given that our deepening bilateral process is the role it has played in supporting Turkey’s relationship is underpinned by continuing firm support reforms in areas such as civilian control of the military for full Turkish membership of the European Union. and the independence of the judiciary. There is, as many Members have said, a long way still to travel, but at the The Turkish-EU accession process and her relations same time it is right that we acknowledge the transformation with the EU were rightly a major theme of the Committee’s that has taken place in Turkish life since the military ran inquiry. We firmly believe that a stronger and closer that country. Even as recently as last month, laws were relationship between the European Union and Turkey passed to establish an independent human rights institute will support the security and prosperity of the United and an independent human rights ombudsman. This Kingdom and the EU. At the same time, we believe that week, the Turkish Parliament voted through measures the process of accession negotiations can be the most to speed up court procedures and institute other judicial important driver towards economic, democratic, judicial reforms, and a draft law on trade union rights is now and political reform within Turkey—reforms that many before the Turkish Parliament. Members on both sides of the House have been calling for in an accelerated reform in this debate. Those achievements over the past decade have been compelling, but as Turkey recognises, further improvements My hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough, quite are needed in areas such as freedom of expression, fairly, raised questions about migration and organised freedom of religion and women’s rights. We urge Turkey crime. Migration would have to be tackled during the to accelerate the pace of reform in those areas, including accession negotiations and in the context of the stage of through the introduction of further reform packages administrative, political and economic development that and an inclusive constitutional reform process. As the Turkey had reached at that time. On looking at other United Kingdom Government, we have offered, and EU candidates or new EU members, the track record is continue to offer, technical assistance on a range of that progress against organised crime is most likely to issues, including freedom of expression, women’s rights be accelerated when those countries are engaged in the and judicial reform— detail of the accession process, with the requirement that that brings for serious action against corruption 7pm and organised crime. Debate interrupted, and Question deferred (Standing Order No. 54). We acknowledge that recent progress in the formal accession negotiations has been disappointing, and we The Deputy Speaker put the deferred Questions (Standing have therefore strongly supported Commissioner Fule’s Order No. 54). positive agenda for EU-Turkey relations. There is some sign of encouragement from the comments made by ESTIMATES 2012-13 President Hollande in France, but we are right to remain cautious. This remains a very sensitive political issue HOME OFFICE within France. Resolved, That, for the year ending with 31 March 2013, for expenditure I am not going to dwell at length on the issue of by the Home Office— Cyprus, which the House will have other opportunities (1) further resources, not exceeding £5,223,694,000, be authorised to debate. However, I say in direct response to my hon. for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1919 of Session Friend the Member for Croydon South, the Chairman 2010-12, of the Foreign Affairs Committee, that we welcome (2) further resources, not exceeding £274,499,000, be authorised President Christofias saying that the gas reserves should for use for capital purposes as so set out, and benefit all the people living in Cyprus. We hope that the (3) a further sum, not exceeding £5,536,178,000, be granted to Government of the Republic of Cyprus will take further Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated steps to demonstrate to Turkish Cypriots that they have Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised a clear interest in the development of these reserves. by Parliament. There has never been any doubt about the United Kingdom’s support for the right of the Republic of FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Cyprus to develop the reserves that lie within its exclusive Resolved, economic zone. That, for the year ending with 31 March 2013, for expenditure by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office— The only other thing I would say about Cyprus is that (1) further resources, not exceeding £1,218,567,000, be authorised we remain committed to a settlement based on a bi-zonal, for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1919 of Session bi-communal federation of Cyprus, with equal rights 2010-12, for all communities and citizens, and in compliance (2) further resources, not exceeding £53,850,000, be authorised with the relevant United Nations organisation. We continue for use for capital purposes as so set out, and to support the Cypriot-led process, facilitated by the (3) a further sum, not exceeding £1,152,371,000, be granted to United Nations, to bring that about. A comprehensive, Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated permanent political settlement in Cyprus is in the interest Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised of Cyprus, Turkey, Greece, Europe and the United by Parliament. Kingdom, and would add hugely to the stability and The Deputy Speaker then put the Question on the prosperity of the whole eastern Mediterranean region. outstanding Estimates (Standing Order No. 55). 1019 UK-Turkey Relations 4 JULY 2012 1020

ESTIMATES 2012-13 Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism Resolved, That, for the year ending with 31 March 2013— 7.2 pm (1) further resources, not exceeding £254,603,561,000, be authorised The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the for use for current purposes as set out in HC 1794, 1919, 1924, and 1927 of Session 2010-12, and in HC 8 and 342 of this Home Department (James Brokenshire): I beg to move, Session, That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (2) further resources, not exceeding £26,235,886,000, be authorised (Amendment) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on for use for capital purposes as so set out, and 2 July, be approved. (3) a further sum, not exceeding £246,245,378,000, be granted The Government are determined to do all we can to to Her Majesty to be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated minimise the threat from terrorism to the UK and our Fund and applied for expenditure on the use of resources authorised interests abroad. Proscription of terrorist organisations by Parliament.—(Jeremy Wright.) is an important part of the Government’s strategy to Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the foregoing tackle terrorist activities. We would therefore like to add Resolutions relating to Estimates, 2012-13; the organisation Indian Mujahideen—the IM—to the That the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr Chancellor list of 47 international terrorist organisations, amending of the Exchequer, Danny Alexander, Miss Chloe Smith, schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act 2000. This is the Mr David Gauke and Mr Mark Hoban bring in the 10th proscription under the 2000 Act. Bill. Section 3 of the 2000 Act provides a power for the Home Secretary to proscribe an organisation if she SUPPLY AND APPROPRIATION (MAIN ESTIMATES)BILL believes it is currently concerned in terrorism. The Act Presentation and First Reading specifies that an organisation is concerned in terrorism if it commits or participates in acts of terrorism; prepares Mr Mark Hoban accordingly presented a Bill to for terrorism; promotes or encourages terrorism, including authorise the use of resources for the year ending with through the unlawful glorification of terrorism; or is 31 March 2013; to authorise both the issue of sums out otherwise concerned in terrorism. The Home Secretary of the Consolidated Fund and the application of income may proscribe an organisation only if she believes it is for that year; and to appropriate the supply authorised concerned in terrorism. If the test is met, she may then for that year by this Act and by the Supply and exercise her discretion to proscribe the organisation. Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Act 2012. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I thank the tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 54). Minister for giving way so early in what will probably be a short contribution. What reviews have been conducted DEFERRED DIVISIONS of all the other organisations on the list? Every time these orders come up, we seem to add to the list, rather Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing than subtract from it. Order No. 41A(3)), That, at this day’s sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred James Brokenshire: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Secretary for giving me the opportunity to tell the House that an Theresa May relating to Terrorism.—(Jeremy Wright.) annual review is undertaken in respect of all the proscribed Question agreed to. organisations. I also note the recommendation from David Anderson, the independent reviewer on terrorism, in respect of a mechanism for de-proscription. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are examining that recommendation carefully, and that we will respond to David Anderson’s report in due course.

Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The Select Committee’s report on the roots of radicalism supported what the Government were doing, but suggested that the matter needed to be looked at. It is six months since the publication of the report. Given that the Minister is now bringing another organisation before the House, will he tell us when we can expect a definitive answer from the Government on what form that mechanism will take?

James Brokenshire: I acknowledge the Select Committee’s interest. Indeed, I gave evidence to the Committee, and I remember the questions that the right hon. Gentleman asked me during the evidence sessions. The matter is being considered, in relation to the Select Committee’s report and in the context of the recommendation made by the independent reviewer. All I can say is that we will make a further announcement in due course. Unfortunately, I cannot give the right hon. Gentleman a more specific answer now, but I 1021 Prevention and Suppression of 4 JULY 2012 Prevention and Suppression of 1022 Terrorism Terrorism [James Brokenshire] requirements for proscription, which I outlined at the start of my contribution. We seek to draw on information acknowledge the point that he is making, and we will wherever it is available so that we can determine that the respond to the points made by the Select Committee relevant steps are met in respect of the statutory tests, and by the independent reviewer shortly. thus giving the Home Secretary the discretion to exercise We recognise that proscription is a tough but necessary a determination to proscribe an organisation. power. Its effect is that the proscribed organisation is We believe there is ample evidence to suggest that IM outlawed and unable to operate in the United Kingdom. is concerned in terrorism, and I believe it is right to add Proscription makes it a criminal offence for a person to the organisation to the list of proscribed organisations belong to, or invite support for, the proscribed organisation. under schedule 2 to the 2000 Act. I commend the order It is also a criminal offence to arrange a meeting in to the House. support of the organisation, or to wear clothing or carry articles in public that could arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual was a member or supporter 7.10 pm of the relevant organisation. Given the wide-ranging impact of proscription, the Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I Home Secretary exercises her power to proscribe an start by thanking the Minister for his courtesy in having organisation only after thoroughly reviewing all the discussions with me about the order. Proscription is available relevant information and evidence on that serious, and it is quite right that the decision to proscribe organisation. Having carefully considered all the evidence, an organisation is not taken lightly. The consequences she firmly believes that IM is involved in terrorism. of proscription are very serious, not least because it Hon. Members will appreciate that I am unable to go potentially criminalises the group’s members. Proscription into much detail, but I am able to give them the following must be reserved for the most dangerous groups where information. IM is a terrorist organisation based in there is clear evidence of terrorist activity. India. It emerged in 2007. It uses violence in its attempts Under the regulations laid out in part II of the to achieve its stated objectives of creating an Islamic Terrorism Act 2000, a group may be proscribed only if state in India and of implementing sharia law there. the Home Secretary believes that the organisation commits The organisation has frequently perpetrated attacks or participates in acts of terrorism and the Opposition on civilian targets, such as markets, with the intention are confident that there is evidence to support the of maximising casualties. In May 2008, for example, a Minister’s assertions and will support the proscription. spate of bomb detonations in the city of Jaipur killed I would like to ask the Minister a few questions about 63, and in September last year an explosion outside the the Indian Mujahideen. It is quite clear that it is a high court in Delhi reportedly killed 12 and injured 65. terrorist organisation. Indeed, as the Minister set out, it IM has sought to incite sectarian hatred in India by has been behind some of the most appalling acts of deliberately targeting Hindu places of worship. An example terrorism of recent years—most horrifically, the Mumbai of that was an attack on a prayer ceremony in Varanasi, attacks of November 2008, in which nearly 170 people which killed a child, in December 2010. were killed. The IM also shares responsibility for the general decline in the security situation on the Indian Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I understand and subcontinent. wholeheartedly support the reason for proscribing the organisation here, but is it proscribed in India as well? It is important, however, to look at the group’s history and to understand the wider movement from James Brokenshire: Yes, the organisation is proscribed which it developed. It is particularly important to recognise in India and in several other countries, including the the strong links between the IM and the Students United States and New Zealand. The proscription here Islamic Movement of India—a movement first identified will align the UK with the emerging international consensus. back in 1977. In 1986, the SIMI called for the liberation of India’s Muslims, and evolved into a militant organisation It is important, in the context of this order, to state at some point in the 1990s. that the group is also known to target areas popular with tourists. A shooting incident in Old Delhi wounded The Royal United Services Institute suggests that the two Taiwanese tourists in September 2010, and there IM needs to be understood as a product of the SIMI. was an unsuccessful attempt to detonate an explosive This is important because, as far as I am aware, the device at the scene. The organisation has also publicly Government have not banned the SIMI. Will the Minister threatened to attack British tourists, so it clearly poses a explain why the SIMI has not been included in the threat to British nationals in India. order? As I understand it, if an IM branch converts back to become a SIMI group, it will not be proscribed Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): My and the Government will be unable to act against its hon. Friend has mentioned the fact that the United members. Is that correct? Will the Minister confirm States and other countries have also condemned these whether he considers the SIMI group to be a terrorist terrorist organisations. What international co-ordination organisation? We also know of concerns about links is there to ensure that if such an organisation is proscribed between the IM and Lashkar-e-Taiba, which has also in one country, it is proscribed in other countries that been known to commit attacks on the Indian subcontinent we see as our allies? and has already been proscribed. Let me move on to other factors to which the Home James Brokenshire: I understand my hon. Friend’s Secretary has to give consideration in making a decision particular interest in this subject. Clearly, we need to be to proscribe. The first is to look at the nature and scale satisfied that a particular organisation meets the statutory of an organisation’s activities. Will the Minister confirm 1023 Prevention and Suppression of 4 JULY 2012 Prevention and Suppression of 1024 Terrorism Terrorism whether the decision to proscribe this organisation now Today is the fifth anniversary of the first Prime is a result of evidence suggesting an increase in the scale Minister’s Question Time after my right hon. Friend the of the IM’s activities? Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) Secondly, the specific threat posed to British nationals became Prime Minister. On that occasion, the then overseas has to be considered. There are many British Leader of the Opposition chose proscription as his first nationals in India, particularly in Mumbai. Sadly, British topic, using the opportunity to attack the then Government nationals have already been caught up in terrorist attacks for not proscribing Hizb ut-Tahrir. He said: in India. Does the fact that the Government are proscribing “Hizb ut-Tahrir. We think it should be banned—why has it not this organisation now mean that the UK Government happened?”—[Official Report, 4 July 2007; Vol. 462, c. 951.] recognise that there is an increased level of threat in Five years later, the Minister stated in a letter to me: India and to British nationals in particular? “this is an organisation about which we have significant concerns The Minister has set out evidence of the targeting of and their activities are kept under review”. UK nationals, and we know that the IM, being active in Will he explain today why Hizb ut-Tahrir still has not India, also has a presence in Pakistan, Nepal and been banned, five years after the present Prime Minister Bangladesh. I understand that it uses the porous borders called for such action? between Nepal and Bangladesh and Bangladesh and India to avoid Indian security on the Pakistan border when it acquires weapons from factions based in Pakistan. 7.18 pm May I also ask whether there is any evidence linking Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I thank that group to forces attacking UK troops operating in the Minister for setting out so clearly why the coalition Afghanistan? Government intend to proscribe this organisation. He Thirdly, there is the issue of the extent of the could have listed, I believe, nine separate incidents in organisation’s presence in the United Kingdom, and the which it was involved between 2007 and 2011. It is question of whether any specific threat is posed to clearly a prolific and dangerous organisation. the UK. Is there any evidence that the IM is active in The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North the UK, or receives direct support from it? Have the (Diana Johnson) asked a great many questions, to which Government any estimate of the number of people in I can add just one. I understand that the Minister may the UK who might be affected by the proscription of not be able to answer it—and many of the other the group? questions—for security reasons, but is there any evidence According to a 2011 report by the Royal United of activity in the UK and specifically of, perhaps, Services Institute, charity work to support that organisation? “SIMI’s (and, thereafter, IM’s) distinguishing characteristic was that it was, essentially, home-grown. Its activists and leaders are virtually all Indian.” 7.19 pm Does the decision to proscribe the group reflect a change Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I do not wish to in its composition? Is there now a greater IM presence detain the House, as I know many of the Members outside India? In particular, have links been found present want us to move on. I can tell them that, given between that group and groups operating in the middle what we have heard from the Front Benches, I do not east and Europe? believe that the House will divide. As I said earlier, there are strong links between IM When we proscribe an organisation, it is important and the Students Islamic Movement of India. Will the that we do so carefully, because it is something we do Minister tell us whether SIMI is known to the Home very rarely. Such a move is also almost never opposed Office, and whether there has been a proper assessment by the Opposition. That has certainly been the case of its activities in the United Kingdom? Specifically, is throughout all the years that I have been Home Affairs there any evidence that it has operated in UK universities, Committee Chair and, indeed, in Parliament—and colleges or mosques, or within communities? Is there throughout all the years you have been in Parliament, any evidence that the IM has forged links with other Madam Deputy Speaker. In all that time, I have never Islamic terrorist organisations operating in the UK? As known Government and Opposition to disagree on the I said earlier, there is evidence that Lashkar-e-Taiba has proscription of an organisation. We will support the given logistical support to the IM. Is there now evidence Government order because I am sure that the Home to suggest that the IM has developed links with any Secretary will have taken good advice before proscribing other groups? In particular, is there any evidence of this organisation, and that she will not have taken the links between the IM and any other groups on the UK’s decision lightly. proscribed list, which I think now contains about However, the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the 47 international terrorist organisations? Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), Fourthly, the Home Secretary should bear in mind was right to press the Minister on a number of issues the need to support other members of the international concerning the operation of the organisation within the community in the global fight against terrorism. The UK. The Minister is right: the Indian Government have Minister has said that the UK is proscribing the IM banned the organisation, as it has conducted a number when that has already been done by some of our of atrocities, most recently in Mumbai in 2011. However, international allies: India, New Zealand and the United I represent a constituency that, on the last census, has States. Why is that? Did India ask the UK to proscribe more people of Indian origin than any other constituency the IM? Did discussions include a discussion of the role in the country, and I am not aware of this organisation of other groups, including SIMI? Will this have any operating in the UK. The Home Secretary obviously European consequences, and have any discussions taken knows better than I, so I am happy to take her lead, but place with our European allies? it is important that we proscribe for a reason. 1025 Prevention and Suppression of 4 JULY 2012 Prevention and Suppression of 1026 Terrorism Terrorism [Keith Vaz] have difficulties in raising money for compassionate and charitable reasons because of the ban that remains The hon. Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) on that group. rightly says we should not act in isolation. The Minister How do we de-proscribe an organisation that does named five countries, including New Zealand, but there not exist? Who makes the application when no members needs to be better co-ordination among countries, so of the LTTE are operating in the United Kingdom? that when we ban an organisation in our country, that Who will write a letter to the Home Secretary to say, applies also in other countries in the EU, because it “Dear Home Secretary, please de-proscribe us” when would not of course be acceptable for that organisation the group no longer exists? The previous Government, to continue to operate in France, for instance, while whom my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon being proscribed in the UK. I am sure that when the Hull North (Diana Johnson) and I supported—although Minister replies he will confirm that we will also be my hon. Friend was not a Home Office Minister in that asking other EU countries to make this decision, as well Government, so I cannot hold her responsible—were as other international organisations with which we are unable to come to this House and say that they would associated, and that we will act together with other de-proscribe any organisation. How will the Government countries that are friendly to the UK. demonstrate their good faith, therefore, not just as regards what they are doing today, which I fully support My main point goes back to an issue raised by my for the reasons set out by the Minister—many of which hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy we obviously take on good faith because we have not Corbyn), however, and it is specifically about proscription. seen the files—but by ensuring that there is a mechanism When the Select Committee produced its unanimous in law that will satisfy our constituents in cases such as report into the roots of radicalism—I note that the hon. the one that I have raised? Member for Northampton North (Michael Ellis), a distinguished brain on the Committee, is present—we were very clear about the issue of de-proscription. We 7.27 pm looked at the example of the People’s Mujahedeen Organisation of Iran. It took the then Government to Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I shall be court and it won, and that Government had to allow it brief, but I want to follow up on the comments made by to continue. We do not want to go along that path the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, my again. There needs to be a clear route for organisations right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith that have become clean, or that have got rid of their Vaz), and the questions asked by my hon. Friend the terrorist operations—and for their supporters who may Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), support certain causes but who do not support who speaks on behalf of the Opposition. terrorism—to be able to be part of an exercise of I feel that we should be cautious when we proscribe de-proscription. any organisation. As the Minister pointed out, the effect is that anti-terrorist law rather than normal criminal The excellent independent reviewer, David Anderson, law applies to that organisation, not just in this country proposes time-limiting proscription, so that Governments but in other countries. It almost ends up criminalising have to come back in two years and renew the proscription. entire communities, as my right hon. Friend for Leicester The Select Committee has not taken a view on the time East mentioned in the context of the Tamil community, limit, but we certainly feel that there ought to be some but it affects many others too. We should not always such mechanism. The Minister has given us an answer, reach out to anti-terror laws to deal with our problems but I am afraid that it is similar to some of the letters I in security; we should instead use the criminal law that have received from the Home Secretary and other Ministers we have. that use the words “in due course”. I know that when The other effect of banning an organisation from a we use the seasons—spring and summer, for example—that particular community can be to choke off perfectly can mean virtually anything and I know that “shortly” open and legitimate political debate and deter people does not necessarily mean tomorrow, but “in due course” from taking part in normal political debate. It might sounds like quite a long time. Clearly this will not also have the perverse effect of encouraging some people happen before the recess, as that is in 10 days’ time, but in completely the wrong direction. We should be more it would be good to have a timetable so that people than slightly cautious about that. know what to expect. These issues are not new and they have been raised I raise these issues because of my concern about my many times. I realise than the Minister probably cannot constituents who are members of the Tamil community. give a full answer today, but I have asked questions They still face difficulties in booking halls when they concerning the Anderson inquiry and its proposals. want to discuss Tamil issues because of the ban that There are a substantial number of organisations on that remains on the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. As list and, as my right hon. Friend pointed out, the LTTE the Minister knows, the LTTE lost the war in Sri is a banned organisation although it no longer exists, so Lanka, effectively all its leaders were killed and the there does not seem to be a great deal of point in organisation no longer exists. If he wants to take advice continuing that ban. Will the Minister give us a more other than mine, he should talk to my hon. Friend the specific indication than “in due course” of when he will Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) and especially be able to come before the House with a substantial to the hon. Member for Ilford North (Mr Scott), who is, reply to the queries of many Members about some of of course, a member of the Minister’s party and the the organisations listed? chairman of the all-party group on Tamils. These members Will the Minister also give a strong message to the of the Tamil community wish to operate within the law law enforcement officers in this country at all levels? If a and have no connection with the LTTE, but they still specific organisation is banned, there is clearly a legal 1027 4 JULY 2012 Business without Debate 1028 sanction against that organisation. However, it is not a PUBLIC BODIES legal sanction against all members of the community or That the draft Public Bodies (Child Maintenance and Enforcement against legitimate political debate. It is not a legal Commission: Abolition and Transfer of Functions) Order 2012, sanction against normal political discourse but, as my which was laid before this House on 23 April 2012, in the previous right hon. Friend pointed out, some people somewhere Session of Parliament, be approved. hear that the LTTE is banned and therefore believe that all Tamil activity is banned. That is obviously not the DEFENCE case, but it is a message that some people misunderstand, That the draft Armed Forces Act (Continuation) Order 2012, or choose to misunderstand. If the Minister would set which was laid before this House on 22 May, be approved. the record right, that would be extremely helpful. I look ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS forward to his reply, and I hope that he can give a That the draft Broadcasting (Local Digital Television Programme substantial answer to the report by the Home Affairs Services and Independent Productions) (Amendment) Order 2012, Committee sooner rather than later. I realise that that which was laid before this House on 23 May, be approved. will not be before the summer recess, but if we could at least have an indication that it would be available in SEA FISHERIES early autumn that would be helpful. That the Fishing Boats (Satellite-Tracking Devices and Electronic Reporting) (England) Scheme 2012 (S.I., 2012, No. 1375), dated 7.30 pm 21 May 2012, a copy of which was laid before this House on 24 May, be approved. James Brokenshire: With the leave of the House, I shall be brief. Important points have been made, and I TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING will reflect on de-proscription and the other things that That the draft Neighbourhood Planning (Referendums) have been raised this evening. I shall certainly write to Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 11 June, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), be approved. who chairs the Select Committee, about relevant matters. I welcome support across the House for the measure. POLICE Unfortunately, there are a number of things on which I That the draft Police and Crime Panels (Modification of cannot comment because of intelligence and security Functions) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House matters, and I hope that right hon. and hon. Members on 11 June, be approved. —(Mr Syms.) will understand. Question agreed to. A number of issues were highlighted with regard to specific organisations. The Home Secretary has to be EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS satisfied through the tests that I outlined that an organisation Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing is connected with terrorism, so this is not a step that is Order No. 119(11)), taken lightly—it is a serious issue. I hope that the House understands that the Home Secretary has considered ENERGY AGREEMENTS BETWEEN EU MEMBER STATES the issue carefully and that the IM has been engaged in AND THIRD COUNTRIES indiscriminate mass-casualty attacks in India. I commend That this House takes note of European Union Document the order to the House. No. 13943/11, a draft Decision of the European Parliament and Question put and agreed to. of the Council setting up an information exchange mechanism Resolved, with regard to intergovernmental agreements between Member States and third countries in the field of energy; and supports the That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) Government’s efforts to achieve greater transparency in (Amendment) Order, which was laid before this House on 2 July, intergovernmental energy agreements, whilst ensuring that the be approved. provisions of the draft Decision do not alter the balance of competence between the Commission and Member States. Business without Debate —(Mr Syms.) Question agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (5 JULY) PETITIONS Ordered, Citroën (Car Charges) That at the sitting on Thursday 5 July the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the Motions in 7.32 pm the name of (1) Edward Miliband and (2) the Prime Minister relating to Professional Standards in the Banking Industry not John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I have a later than a quarter past five o’clock; such Questions shall include petition from my constituent, Mr D. Pickerill, who the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker which bought a Citroën car on 6 April 2011 for which he paid may then be moved; the Questions may be put after the moment £14,615, although it had been advertised from 1 April of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Mr Syms.) 2011 for £12,995, or just under £13,000. He was required to pay the higher price because he ordered it before 1 April, which is really bad practice by Citroën. The DELEGATED LEGISLATION petition states “Wherefore your Petitioner prays that your Honourable House Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With the will urge the Government to ensure that fair trade remains a leave of the House, we shall take motions 6 to 11 together. principle of doing business within the United Kingdom; and bring forward legislation to ensure that all transactions in the UK Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing are equitable and that companies, such as Citroën, cannot advertise Order No. 118(6)), a product for one price and sell it at a higher price. 1029 4 JULY 2012 1030

And your Petitioner, as in duty bound, will ever pray”. Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage Following is the full text of the petition: Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House [The Humble Petition of Mr D Pickerill, do now adjourn.—(Mr Francois.) Sheweth, That the Petitioner bought a Citroën C4 on 6 April 7.36 pm 2011, which the Petitioner declares was purchased from Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I am grateful to Citroën for £14,615, but had been advertised from 1 April have this debate on an issue of great concern to people 2011 for £12,995; further declares that the Petitioner in my constituency and others along the coast. I welcome believes that he was wilfully overcharged; and declares this opportunity to talk about a proposal that could that despite the assistance of the Honourable Member for change the character of our coastline for decades. The Birmingham Yardley, Citroën have refused to refund or Navitus Bay offshore wind farm will cover 76 square properly explain the difference. miles of seabed owned by the Crown Estate. It is to be Wherefore your Petitioner prays that your Honourable located to the south and west of The Needles on the Isle House will urge the Government to ensure that fair trade of Wight and will be clearly visible from Swanage, one remains a principle of doing business within the United of the seaside resorts in my constituency. Kingdom; and bring forward legislation to ensure that all The project is a 50:50 joint venture between two transactions in the UK are equitable and that companies, foreign firms—the Dutch energy company Eneco and such as Citroën, cannot advertise a product for one price the French utility giant EDF. It forms part of round and sell it at a higher price. 3 of the Department of Energy and Climate Change’s programme of offshore development, which is designed And your Petitioner, as in duty bound, will ever pray, to generate 33 GW of energy by 2020. Working at full etc.] capacity, the wind farm will generate enough electricity [P001102] for about 800,000 homes. It will create jobs and foster engineering and marine-based skills, and it forms part Bus Services in Teesside and East Cleveland of a regeneration agenda for some of the most run-down areas on the south coast. Put like that, and in the 7.33 pm context of the Government’s enthusiasm for renewable Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East energy, it seems almost irresistible. Cleveland) (Lab): The petition states: However, Dorset and East Devon’s stunning Jurassic The Petition of residents of East Cleveland and Middlesbrough, coast is the only natural UNESCO world heritage site in England. The Great Barrier reef has the same status, Declares that the Petitioners believe that bus services in Teesside provided by Arriva have been second rate for too long; that buses and if we were to suggest building 300 wind turbines off do not run on time, services have been cut back and rising fares that, the Australians would tell us in typically blunt are threatening to price out vulnerable, elderly and young people fashion exactly where to go. World heritage status was from using public transport for educational purposes, as a means granted to the Jurassic coast 10 years ago in recognition of transport for work and for accessing health services; and of our glorious coastline, which UNESCO describes as further declares that the Petitioners believe that Government cuts being of “outstanding universal value”. It is a prized to subsidies for local bus services are making this already poor designation, and a magnet for 16 million visitors every situation worse, year. Tourists spend nearly £700 million a year there The 490 Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons and support more than 45,000 jobs. And yes, the unspoilt urges the Government to reverse cuts to local bus subsidies and view is key to this success, so why are we considering take all possible steps to ensure that improvements are made to bus services in East Cleveland and Middlesbrough. jeopardising this jewel by siting a giant wind farm just offshore? And the Petitioners remain, etc. The precise details have yet to be confirmed when the [P001104] three phases of public consultation are closed in autumn Rural Transport (Sadberge, Darlington) next year, but we know enough to be concerned. The aim is to generate between 900 MW and 1,200 MW of wind energy a year. That translates into a need for 7.34 pm between 100 and 333 turbines. Each, depending upon Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): This is a petition on capacity, will be somewhere between 150 and 210 metres behalf of 127 residents of the small community of tall. To put that in perspective, one of the larger turbines Sadberge in Sedgefield, who are deeply concerned about would dwarf the Gherkin in the City. Just one of these cuts to their local bus services. All bus services will be giant turbines would be significant; 100 of them, or removed from that community at the end of the year. more if smaller turbines are used, would blight the The petition states: coastline for years to come. The Petition of residents of Sadberge, Importantly, the proximity of this wind farm to our shoreline totally contradicts the Government’s own Declares that the Petitioners believe that in order to maintain a reliable rural transport network in Darlington Borough additional guidelines. The Department of Energy and Climate funding needs to be provided for rural bus services. Change suggests that such developments should be The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons more than 23 km from the coast. Unfortunately, the urges the Government to ensure that there is funding in place to majority of this project is inside that limit. Indeed, the maintain the provision of reliable rural bus services in the Darlington closest point is a mere 13 km away. Interestingly, there Borough. was, and presumably still is, the possibility of locating And the Petitioners remain, etc. the turbines further out to sea. Originally, the Crown [P001105] Estate earmarked a far larger area for the wind farm. Inevitably, the site chosen by Eneco and its partners is 1031 Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage4 JULY 2012 Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage 1032 the closest to shore in depths of between 20 and 50 metres, wind farms. With households already struggling to pay which is clearly intended to reduce the cost. That would their energy bills, the financial incentives for investors indicate, rather worryingly, that whatever the result of are almost obscene. The news yesterday that such subsidies the public consultations there is little room for manoeuvre. will eventually be reduced to zero should deter companies The truth is that Navitus Bay will be too big and too hoping to exploit our energy crisis. close. This is not just nimbyism. Those who think that a David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Unfortunately, simple view should not impede our future energy that news will not apply to schemes such as Navitus requirements should think on this: UNESCO considered Bay because it will not be applied retrospectively, if withdrawing the world heritage designation given to the ever it were to happen. Is my hon. Friend as concerned beautiful and secluded site of Mont Saint Michel in as I am that, based on the numbers he has quoted, France when it was threatened by just three wind turbines the total subsidy for that wind farm over the next two 20 km away. The French electricity firm involved quickly decades would be in the order of £1.5 billion to £2 billion, backed down and Mont Saint Michel remains undisturbed, which is an awful lot of money for other consumers surrounded by a permanent 40 by 80 km exclusion to find? zone. Richard Drax: I entirely concur. At a time of austerity, I have written to the UNESCO world heritage centre when we are all looking for the pennies here and there to warn that our own natural world heritage site is in to keep our country afloat, this is not a moment to dish jeopardy. It has written to the ambassador to the United out money to, in particular, foreign companies. That is Kingdom’s permanent delegation to UNESCO and to what is so ironic: they are Dutch and French companies, the advisory body of the World Heritage Committee. It not British. has also demanded a visual analysis of the potential To their credit, the companies involved, Navitus, negative impact on the coastline. In the visual analysis I Eneco and EDF, have consulted and are consulting have seen, viewed from Durlston, a viewpoint in Swanage, those who live near to or use those waters, and they a full third of the horizon is taken up by wind turbines. have promised to take their views into account. To be clear, that is the same Durlston that, following a Opponents of Navitus believe that the giant turbines £5 million restoration, is called the “Gateway to the will have a catastrophic effect on the environment and Jurassic coast”. There would be a stretch of water on tourism. Millions of people do not flock to our between the land and the wind farm, but the undisturbed coastline to watch turbine blades go round; they go for and peaceful skyline would be broken by man’s folly. peace and a chance to escape this busy world in which The Department of Energy and Climate Change has we live. confirmed that Britain is still dedicated to producing I worry that our current planning guidelines will not 15% of the country’s energy from renewables by 2020, help local people to defeat unwanted wind farm proposals. yet we know that wind energy generation has proved In a recent reply to my letter, the Minister explained intermittent and unreliable. At peak output, wind farms that the Navitus Bay wind farm is a average only a third of their proposed capacity, so wind “Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project under the planning energy has to be supplemented by conventional power act”. stations or nuclear energy—not the stuff of green dreams— which are expensive to build and neither is renewable, As such, the project goes straight to the Planning but they will keep the lights on. Connecting Navitus Inspectorate, together with an environmental statement Bay to the grid would be far costlier than anyone on the potential impact of the wind farm, and that, too, anticipated. The electricity networks’ strategy group is prepared by the developer. reported this year on what it rather coyly describes as The Minister points out that the public may submit “regional connection issues”. Put simply, our networks their views to the inspectorate, but he reminds me that cannot cope with carrying the extra capacity. The ENSG the wind farm is part of our commitment to meet estimates that £450 million will need to be spent on renewable targets. There is a hint of inevitability about “system reinforcement” in the south-west, which includes his reply, and I should appreciate his reassurance that the proposed Navitus Bay development, before any the scheme is not a foregone conclusion. electricity flows. I fear, as with recent onshore wind farm planning Then there is the vexed question of subsidies, to appeals, that we may find inspectors citing renewable which my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris energy targets as more important than planning Heaton-Harris) has drawn our attention to so successfully. considerations. I sincerely hope that the national planning To make wind farms attractive, investors were lured policy framework amendments suggested by my hon. with promises of excessive financial incentives, and 105 Friend the Member for Daventry and by other colleagues Members of this House have already protested against in the House—in which we recommend that renewable those subsidies. energy targets should not be used by developers as a reason to override the unsuitability of specific locations, Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I commend and that the wishes of local people should still be my hon. Friend for securing this debate and support considered paramount—will be adopted in the case of him absolutely. The 105 signatures actually related to offshore wind farm applications as well. subsidies for onshore wind farms, but we know that the subsidies going into offshore wind are even greater and Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): Perhaps I should even less affordable for the taxpayer. declare an interest as someone who has enjoyed sailing off the Jurassic coast. I assure my hon. Friend that this Richard Drax: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I historic and wonderful coast is enjoyed not just by shall come to that point and ask the Minister to reassure Members and the people of Dorset but by many tourists me that the subsidy withdrawal will also apply to offshore from miles around, so on behalf of many other south-east 1033 Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage4 JULY 2012 Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage 1034

[Jonathan Lord] If the company does not know all those things, I find it strange that it can tell us exactly the quantity of energy MPs I support him. It is a valuable resource and a the wind farm is intended to produce. When the company landmark of national importance, and that must not does give us illustrative graphics, they are of a dusky get lost in the planning process. winter scene. We want them to show the wind farm at the height of the season on a clear, blue-sky day or on a Richard Drax: I thank my hon. Friend for his clear night, so that we can see what it would mean for contribution. He is absolutely right, and I hope that the the area. Minister and the Government listen to him, to us in the We are concerned about the economic impact assessment. House, to the millions of people who live on our coastline In fairness, the company is seeking to talk to more than and to the millions of others who go down to use it. 400 businesses, but some are up to 10 miles away from There are other sites, further away and less visible, if the coastal area. That will not give us meaningful data such a wind farm is unavoidable, but there are no other about the potential impact on our area. natural sites designated as world heritage sites in the I close with a simple point, one of the most important entire country. I ask the Government to think very that my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset carefully about what they are doing before we blight made. I would love the Minister to give us a firm and one of the jewels in our coastal crown. detailed reply. It is about proximity to the shore. Eneco’s preferred site is 7 nautical miles from the coast, but the 7.48 pm Department of Energy and Climate Change offshore energy assessment 2 says that new offshore wind farm Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con): It is a generation capacity pleasure to make a brief contribution to this debate. “should be sited away from the coast, generally outside 12 nautical I shall not dwell on the points that my hon. Friend miles”. the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) has made so eloquently about the philosophy behind offshore The same report goes on to acknowledge that or, indeed, onshore wind, about which my hon. Friend “The environmental sensitivity of coastal areas is not uniform, the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) has and in certain cases new offshore wind farm projects may be also spoken at length in the past, except to say, as my acceptable”. right hon. and noble Friend the Baroness Thatcher “In certain cases”—I find it inconceivable that anyone once did: could judge that an exception could be made for the “Nothing is more obstinate than a fashionable consensus.” case under discussion. My hon. Friend talked about This is a profoundly serious issue for my constituents the beauty of the Jurassic coastline and I have dwelt on and, indeed, for the entirety of the conurbation, and the beauty of our area, which attracts so much tourism. that is demonstrated by the fact that my hon. Friends The project may be some way off, but our constituents— the Members for Poole (Mr Syms) and for Christchurch mine and others across the conurbation—will not forgive (Mr Chope) and my hon. Friend and constituency us if we do not highlight today the impact that it could neighbour the Member for Bournemouth East have. If it damages our area, our constituents would (Mr Ellwood)—the entire conurbation—are in the Chamber rightly not forgive those of us sent to this place to stand this evening to highlight our profound and real concerns up for the interests of the areas that we serve. and reservations. Bournemouth is well known to Members, who go there for the party conferences and will have all stood in 7.52 pm the Highcliff hotel and enjoyed the incredible views across the bay. The bay and the view are the hook on Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): It is which our local tourism economy hangs. The vital a pleasure to follow my hon. Friends the Members prosperity of our area is dependent on that, and we for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns) and for South have profound reservations about this scheme and what Dorset (Richard Drax), the latter of whom secured this it may do to the tourism economy. important debate. I will not detain hon. Members for long as I am looking forward to hearing what the I have extreme concerns about the process of consultation Minister has to say. in which Eneco is involved. The initial consultation did not fill us with confidence; it included questions such I echo some of our concerns in Bournemouth. Tourism as: is our biggest industry. It is the fifth biggest industry in the country, but it is certainly the biggest in Bournemouth. “How far do you agree with the following statement?” ‘People have a ‘not in my back yard’ attitude to wind parks’…. How far The wind farm installations will be sited 10 miles off the do you agree with the following statement? ‘I am happy to live coast. We are supposed to be having a consultation, but close to an offshore wind park if it helps to combat climate we do not know three important things. We do not change’…How many average households’ energy consumption know the actual location of the wind farm within the do you think an offshore wind park can produce in one year?” upside-down “T” shape that has been given to the Those are not open-minded consultation questions, but company by the Crown Estate. The company has chosen dogma-driven ones. to take the very top of the “T” nearest the land, but we We also have real concerns about the inability so far do not know exactly where the wind farm will be. of the company to provide us with real graphics about We also do not know the height of the turbines—whether what the park will look like. The company keeps telling they will be 100 metres or just over 200 metres high, and us that it cannot yet do that because it does not know we do not know how many there will be. How can there where in the development area the farm will be, how be a consultation without some understanding of what many turbines there will be or what height they will be. we are considering and what might appear on our 1035 Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage4 JULY 2012 Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage 1036 doorstep? I am not conceptually against offshore wind Kazakhstan. If it makes sense for them to be harnessing farms, but there is a threshold in respect of which they their renewable resources, it surely makes sense for us to could be accepted. do so. For us, offshore wind is a crucial part of that People have managed to locate a wind farm 20 miles equation because it is one of our most abundant and off the coast of our fellow tourist town of Blackpool, deliverable renewable resources. and that shows that such projects can work. There are My hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Jonathan 102 turbines 150 metres high there, and they provide Lord) talked about sailing on the southern coast. The 370 MW. Three times that amount will be required for fact that it is such a good area for sailing shows that the the Bournemouth area. If the turbines were situated wind resource is strong there. That is one of the reasons 20 miles off the coast, well within the identified Crown the Crown Estate identified the area for potential Estate area, that would work. The argument that the development. Offshore wind generates more energy, cable that links the site to the mainland would be too and more often, than other technologies, and it is long is ridiculous, because the one at Blackpool is therefore right that we should be considering it. 43 km long. We can reach a compromise that will ensure My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset talked that the wind farms can exist, if that is what these about the designation of the scheme as a nationally companies want, but also guarantee that they does not significant infrastructure project. That is not a subjective affect the tourism that is so important to the people of assessment made on the basis of having looked at its Bournemouth. merits; it is simply a recognition that it is a scheme of more than 50 MW. Any scheme of more than 50 MW 7.54 pm has to go through the new national planning system, The Minister of State, Department of Energy and but following the changes that the Government have Climate Change (Charles Hendry): I am grateful for the made, the final decisions will be made by Ministers. chance to respond to this brief debate. I thank my hon. We understand the local community’s concerns about Friends the Members for South Dorset (Richard Drax), the proposed development. While we are committed to for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood), for Bournemouth a rapid increase in offshore wind, we need to ensure that West (Conor Burns) and for Christchurch (Mr Chope), wind farms are located in the right places, and that is and I appreciate the support for their comments that the purpose of the planning process. We recognise the they have received from other hon. Friends. It is clear need to make balanced decisions on the appropriate from their measured and thoughtful speeches that this location of offshore wind farms. We also recognise that matter is of profound concern to them and to their we must take account of the views of local residents, constituents. Those of us who know this particularly and I give that absolute assurance to my hon. Friend. A stunning piece of coastline, which has been enjoyed not proposal must take account of the interests of other only by local residents but by many visitors over the users of the sea and of the impact on the environment. years, know that it is a special part of the countryside All renewable energy developments take place within a and we understand the emotions that lie behind their fair and transparent planning process that allows all comments. It is important to say at the outset that no relevant stakeholders to put forward their views on the planning application has yet been made. This is an likely impact of a proposal. outline proposal on where some potential offshore wind Let me turn to concerns about the site selection farms can be positioned, but it has not yet moved to process for offshore wind in the context of local sensitivities. being a formal application. Decisions regarding the location of the round 3 offshore I hope that my hon. Friends accept that all of us as wind farm zones, which include Navitus bay, were made Government Members agree that the way forward for by the Crown Estate based on its own analysis of our energy policy has to be secure, affordable and low multiple constraints and opportunities. That is a broad carbon. That means having a mix of new nuclear, zoning aspect. It is then for the planning process to carbon capture to support coal and gas into the future, make recommendations on individual applications. It is and renewable sources. We need to combine that with during the planning process that all relevant stakeholders energy efficiency, which is the cheapest way of delivering will have the chance to ensure that their views are heard, energy security. Renewable energy, and offshore wind in including on aspects such as the potential visual impact particular, is set to be a major part of our energy future. of a proposal. We all recognise that the environmental Wind is a low-carbon energy source. It is also a domestic sensitivity of coastal areas is not uniform, and neither source of energy supply, which means that it will play a are the particulars of individual wind farm applications. role in our energy security because we do not have to It is therefore right and proper that decisions will be rely on imported fuels in order to deliver it. taken on a case-by-case basis. My understanding is that the developers for Navitus Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Will my hon. intend to submit an application to the Planning Inspectorate Friend give way? in the autumn next year. The inspectorate will decide whether the application can be accepted. It will examine Charles Hendry: I hope that my hon. Friend will in detail the application and all the relevant information, understand that I cannot because I have been given a including the views of local stakeholders and the local relatively short time to respond and I want to pick up as community, before making its recommendation to the many points as I can. If there is time at the end, I will be Secretary of State for a final determination. I know that more than happy for him to contribute. my hon. Friends will understand that, as one of the When we look around, we see that some of the most Ministers involved in the determination process, it is energy-rich countries in the world are also harnessing not appropriate for me to go into the details of a their renewable resources, be it solar power in Saudi specific application. However, I want to reassure them Arabia, hydro power in Norway, or wind power in of the thoroughness of the process. Their views as local 1037 Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage4 JULY 2012 Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage 1038

[Charles Hendry] environment. That was a core part of his speech. The impacts on other sea users and the environment have to Members of Parliament, the views of their local authorities be assessed at a strategic level as part of the Department’s and the views of their constituents will be an integral offshore energy strategic environmental assessment, and part of that process. are assessed again at the application stage for each I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for South individual project in the environmental impact assessment. Dorset that this is not a done deal. That a project is of a The most recent strategic environmental assessment scale that makes it nationally significant does not mean report, which we published in 2011, concluded that at a that it automatically will go through the process without strategic level, there were no overriding environmental changes being made. I understand the reservations of considerations to prevent the achievement of up to my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West 33 GW of offshore wind in the renewable energy zone about the nature of the consultation, but that is an and the English and Welsh territorial waters by 2020. integral part of the process. It is important in determining We should be in no doubt, however, that the level of the exact location that may ultimately be developed and ambition is linked directly to the costs involved. We are the scale of the wind farm. We will try to accommodate working with the industry to ensure that the costs of the views of the local community. If there is not seen to offshore wind can be brought down significantly. At the be a full and proper consultation process, that will moment, the cost is about £140 per MWh; we need to jeopardise the likelihood of success. see that brought down to £100 per MWh. The industry I hope that I have reassured my hon. Friend the ambition of 18 GW by 2020 is absolutely dependent on Member for South Dorset about the nature of the progress being made in that direction. We understand process, and about the chance for his and his constituents’ that that has to happen in a way that works for consumers views to be heard. and the industry as investors. It is worth observing that, last year, there was pressure to push up bills by more Mr Ellwood: Will my hon. Friend give way? than £100 because the wholesale price of gas rose by about 40%. The renewable energy element of a bill is Charles Hendry: I want to make some further less than £20, or less than 3%. We have to look at these observations, but if there is a chance for my hon. Friend issues in the round. to make some further comments, I will be pleased let The most important message that I can give to my him do so. hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset is that this is one proposal, which will come forward in a formal Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. application next year. There will be significant opportunities Minister, may I ask you to face towards me and to to ensure that people’s views are heard. I am adamant speak into the microphone? We keep losing the sound as a Minister involved in the process that local engagement when you turn around. with the community will be an integral part of that process. Charles Hendry: I willingly accept your advice, Madam Deputy Speaker. Many people are quite glad when the Question put and agreed to. sound goes off while I am speaking, but I know that in such an important debate the words are all important. 8.4 pm My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset raised the potential impact of offshore wind farms on the House adjourned. 1039 4 JULY 2012 Deferred Divisions 1040

Deferred Divisions Heald, Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Heath, Mr David Morris, David Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James POLICE Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen That the draft Police and Crime Commissioner Elections Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 15 May, be Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg approved. Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa The House divided: Ayes 304, Noes 209. Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Division No. 42] Hoban, Mr Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Hollingbery, George Neill, Robert Hollobone, Mr Philip Newmark, Mr Brooks AYES Howarth, Mr Gerald Newton, Sarah Adams, Nigel Colvile, Oliver Howell, John Norman, Jesse Afriyie, Adam Crabb, Stephen Hughes, rh Simon Nuttall, Mr David Aldous, Peter Crockart, Mike Huhne, rh Chris Offord, Dr Matthew Alexander, rh Danny Crouch, Tracey Hunter, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Andrew, Stuart Davey, rh Mr Edward Huppert, Dr Julian Opperman, Guy Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Davies, David T. C. Hurd, Mr Nick Osborne, rh Mr George Baker, Norman (Monmouth) Jackson, Mr Stewart Ottaway, Richard Baker, Steve Davies, Glyn James, Margot Paice, rh Mr James Baldry, Sir Tony Davies, Philip Javid, Sajid Parish, Neil Baldwin, Harriett Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Patel, Priti Barclay, Stephen Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Gareth Paterson, rh Mr Owen Barker, Gregory Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph Pawsey, Mark Baron, Mr John Duddridge, James Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike Barwell, Gavin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr David Percy, Andrew Bebb, Guto Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr Marcus Perry, Claire Bellingham, Mr Henry Ellis, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Phillips, Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Pickles, rh Mr Eric Berry, Jake Elphicke, Charlie Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pincher, Christopher Bingham, Andrew Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Poulter, Dr Daniel Binley, Mr Brian Evans, Jonathan Knight, rh Mr Greg Prisk, Mr Mark Birtwistle, Gordon Evennett, Mr David Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, John Blackman, Bob Fabricant, Michael Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic Blackwood, Nicola Fallon, Michael Lamb, Norman Randall, rh Mr John Blunt, Mr Crispin Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Reckless, Mark Boles, Nick Featherstone, Lynne Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Redwood, rh Mr John Bone, Mr Peter Field, Mark Laws, rh Mr David Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bottomley, Sir Peter Foster, rh Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan Bradley, Karen Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Jessica Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Brady, Mr Graham Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Robertson, Mr Laurence Brake, rh Tom Freeman, George Leigh, Mr Edward Rogerson, Dan Bray, Angie Freer, Mike Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rosindell, Andrew Brazier, Mr Julian Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Bridgen, Andrew Gale, Sir Roger Lewis, Dr Julian Russell, Sir Bob Brine, Steve Garnier, Mr Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rutley, David Brokenshire, James Gauke, Mr David Lidington, rh Mr David Sanders, Mr Adrian Brooke, Annette Gibb, Mr Nick Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura Bruce, Fiona Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Glen, John Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Buckland, Mr Robert Goldsmith, Zac Luff, Peter Shapps, rh Grant Burley, Mr Aidan Goodwill, Mr Robert Lumley, Karen Sharma, Alok Burns, Conor Gove, rh Michael Macleod, Mary Shelbrooke, Alec Burns, rh Mr Simon Graham, Richard Main, Mrs Anne Shepherd, Mr Richard Burrowes, Mr David Grant, Mrs Helen Maude, rh Mr Francis Simmonds, Mark Burstow, Paul Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Simpson, Mr Keith Burt, Alistair Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Skidmore, Chris Burt, Lorely Green, Damian McCartney, Jason Smith, Miss Chloe Byles, Dan Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry Cairns, Alun Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Julian Cameron, rh Mr David Griffiths, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Soames, rh Nicholas Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Soubry, Anna Carmichael, Neil Hames, Duncan Mensch, Louise Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Carswell, Mr Douglas Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Spencer, Mr Mark Clappison, Mr James Hancock, Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Clark, rh Greg Hands, Greg Miller, Maria Stevenson, John Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harper, Mr Mark Mills, Nigel Stewart, Bob Clegg, rh Mr Nick Harrington, Richard Milton, Anne Stewart, Iain Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Rory Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Stride, Mel Collins, Damian Harvey, Nick Morgan, Nicky Stuart, Mr Graham 1041 Deferred Divisions4 JULY 2012 Deferred Divisions 1042

Stunell, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Hermon, Lady Osborne, Sandra Sturdy, Julian Ward, Mr David Heyes, David Owen, Albert Swales, Ian Weatherley, Mike Hillier, Meg Perkins, Toby Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Webb, Steve Hilling, Julie Phillipson, Bridget Swinson, Jo Wharton, James Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen Swire, rh Mr Hugo Wheeler, Heather Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Syms, Mr Robert White, Chris Hoey, Kate Reeves, Rachel Thurso, John Whittaker, Craig Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Emma Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Timpson, Mr Edward Wiggin, Bill Tomlinson, Justin Jamieson, Cathy Riordan, Mrs Linda Willetts, rh Mr David Tredinnick, David Jarvis, Dan Robertson, John Williams, Mr Mark Truss, Elizabeth Johnson, Diana Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Williams, Stephen Turner, Mr Andrew Jones, Helen Rotheram, Steve Williamson, Gavin Tyrie, Mr Andrew Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Mr Frank Uppal, Paul Willott, Jenny Jones, Susan Elan Roy, Lindsay Vaizey, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Ruane, Chris Vara, Mr Shailesh Wollaston, Dr Sarah Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sarwar, Anas Vickers, Martin Wright, Jeremy Khan, rh Sadiq Seabeck, Alison Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wright, Simon Lammy, rh Mr David Shannon, Jim Walker, Mr Robin Young, rh Sir George Lavery, Ian Sharma, Mr Virendra Wallace, Mr Ben Zahawi, Nadhim Lazarowicz, Mark Sheerman, Mr Barry Leslie, Chris Sheridan, Jim NOES Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Shuker, Gavin Lucas, Caroline Simpson, David Abbott, Ms Diane Cunningham, Mr Jim Lucas, Ian Skinner, Mr Dennis Abrahams, Debbie Cunningham, Sir Tony Mactaggart, Fiona Slaughter, Mr Andy Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dakin, Nic Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, rh Mr Andrew Alexander, Heidi Danczuk, Simon Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Angela Ali, Rushanara David, Wayne Malhotra, Seema Smith, Nick Allen, Mr Graham Davies, Geraint Mann, John Smith, Owen Anderson, Mr David De Piero, Gloria Marsden, Mr Gordon Spellar, rh Mr John Ashworth, Jonathan Dobbin, Jim McCann, Mr Michael Straw, rh Mr Jack Austin, Ian Dobson, rh Frank McClymont, Gregg Stringer, Graham Bailey, Mr Adrian Dodds, rh Mr Nigel McCrea, Dr William Stuart, Ms Gisela Bain, Mr William Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. McDonagh, Siobhain Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Banks, Gordon Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McDonnell, John Tami, Mark Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dowd, Jim McGovern, Alison Timms, rh Stephen Bayley, Hugh Dromey, Jack McGovern, Jim Trickett, Jon Beckett, rh Margaret Dugher, Michael McKinnell, Catherine Turner, Karl Bell, Sir Stuart Eagle, Ms Angela Meacher, rh Mr Michael Twigg, Derek Benn, rh Hilary Eagle, Maria Meale, Sir Alan Twigg, Stephen Benton, Mr Joe Edwards, Jonathan Mearns, Ian Umunna, Mr Chuka Betts, Mr Clive Efford, Clive Michael, rh Alun Vaz, rh Keith Blackman-Woods, Roberta Elliott, Julie Miliband, rh David Vaz, Valerie Blenkinsop, Tom Ellman, Mrs Louise Miliband, rh Edward Walley, Joan Blomfield, Paul Engel, Natascha Miller, Andrew Watts, Mr Dave Blunkett, rh Mr David Esterson, Bill Moon, Mrs Madeleine Whitehead, Dr Alan Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Evans, Chris Morden, Jessica Williamson, Chris Brennan, Kevin Fitzpatrick, Jim Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Flello, Robert Munn, Meg Wilson, Phil Brown, Mr Russell Flynn, Paul Murphy, rh Mr Jim Wilson, Sammy Bryant, Chris Fovargue, Yvonne Murphy, rh Paul Winnick, Mr David Buck, Ms Karen Francis, Dr Hywel Murray, Ian Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Burden, Richard Gapes, Mike Nandy, Lisa Woodcock, John Burnham, rh Andy Gardiner, Barry Nash, Pamela Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Campbell, Mr Alan Gilmore, Sheila O’Donnell, Fiona Wright, David Campbell, Mr Gregory Glass, Pat Onwurah, Chi Wright, Mr Iain Campbell, Mr Ronnie Glindon, Mrs Mary Caton, Martin Goggins, rh Paul Question accordingly agreed to. Chapman, Jenny Goodman, Helen Clark, Katy Greatrex, Tom Clarke, rh Mr Tom Green, Kate EDUCATION Clwyd, rh Ann Greenwood, Lilian That the draft Education (Amendment of the Curriculum Coaker, Vernon Griffith, Nia Requirements for Fourth Key Stage) (England) Order 2012, Coffey, Ann Gwynne, Andrew which was laid before this House on 11 June, be approved. Connarty, Michael Hain, rh Mr Peter The House divided: Ayes 317, Noes 199. Cooper, Rosie Hamilton, Mr David Division No. 43] Cooper, rh Yvette Hamilton, Fabian Corbyn, Jeremy Hanson, rh Mr David AYES Crausby, Mr David Havard, Mr Dai Creagh, Mary Healey, rh John Adams, Nigel Aldous, Peter Cunningham, Alex Hepburn, Mr Stephen Afriyie, Adam Alexander, rh Danny 1043 Deferred Divisions4 JULY 2012 Deferred Divisions 1044

Andrew, Stuart Duddridge, James Jenkin, Mr Bernard Parish, Neil Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Johnson, Gareth Patel, Priti Baker, Norman Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Paterson, rh Mr Owen Baker, Steve Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Pawsey, Mark Baldry, Sir Tony Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jones, Mr David Penning, Mike Baldwin, Harriett Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr Marcus Percy, Andrew Barclay, Stephen Eustice, George Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Barker, Gregory Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Phillips, Stephen Baron, Mr John Evennett, Mr David Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pickles, rh Mr Eric Barwell, Gavin Fabricant, Michael Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher Bebb, Guto Fallon, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Bellingham, Mr Henry Farron, Tim Kwarteng, Kwasi Prisk, Mr Mark Beresford, Sir Paul Featherstone, Lynne Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pugh, John Berry, Jake Field, Mark Lamb, Norman Raab, Mr Dominic Bingham, Andrew Foster, rh Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Randall, rh Mr John Binley, Mr Brian Fox,rhDrLiam Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reckless, Mark Birtwistle, Gordon Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John Blackman, Bob Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Rees-Mogg, Jacob Blackwood, Nicola Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Reid, Mr Alan Blunt, Mr Crispin Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Boles, Nick Gale, Sir Roger Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Bone, Mr Peter Garnier, Mr Edward Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Bottomley, Sir Peter Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Rosindell, Andrew Bradley, Karen George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Rudd, Amber Brady, Mr Graham Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Sir Bob Brake, rh Tom Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lidington, rh Mr David Rutley, David Bray, Angie Glen, John Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sanders, Mr Adrian Brazier, Mr Julian Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Sandys, Laura Bridgen, Andrew Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Scott, Mr Lee Brine, Steve Gove, rh Michael Luff, Peter Selous, Andrew Brokenshire, James Graham, Richard Lumley, Karen Shannon, Jim Brooke, Annette Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Shapps, rh Grant Bruce, Fiona Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Sharma, Alok Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Grayling, rh Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Shelbrooke, Alec Buckland, Mr Robert Green, Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Shepherd, Mr Richard Burley, Mr Aidan Greening, rh Justine Maynard, Paul Simmonds, Mark Burns, Conor Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Simpson, David Burns, rh Mr Simon Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Simpson, Mr Keith Burrowes, Mr David Gyimah, Mr Sam McCrea, Dr William Skidmore, Chris Burstow, Paul Halfon, Robert McIntosh, Miss Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Burt, Alistair Hames, Duncan McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry Burt, Lorely Hammond, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Byles, Dan Hancock, Matthew McVey, Esther Smith, Sir Robert Cairns, Alun Hands, Greg Mensch, Louise Soames, rh Nicholas Cameron, rh Mr David Harper, Mr Mark Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna Campbell, Mr Gregory Harrington, Richard Metcalfe, Stephen Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harris, Rebecca Miller, Maria Spencer, Mr Mark Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Hart, Simon Mills, Nigel Stanley, rh Sir John Carmichael, Neil Harvey, Nick Milton, Anne Stephenson, Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Oliver Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stevenson, John Cash, Mr William Heath, Mr David Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Bob Clappison, Mr James Heaton-Harris, Chris Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Iain Clark, rh Greg Hemming, John Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Rory Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Henderson, Gordon Morris, David Stride, Mel Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hendry, Charles Morris, James Stuart, Mr Graham Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick Mosley, Stephen Stunell, Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hermon, Lady Mowat, David Sturdy, Julian Collins, Damian Hinds, Damian Mulholland, Greg Swales, Ian Colvile, Oliver Hoban, Mr Mark Munt, Tessa Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Crabb, Stephen Hoey, Kate Murray, Sheryll Swinson, Jo Crockart, Mike Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Swire, rh Mr Hugo Crouch, Tracey Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert Syms, Mr Robert Davey, rh Mr Edward Howarth, Mr Gerald Newmark, Mr Brooks Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Davies, David T. C. Howell, John Newton, Sarah Thurso, John (Monmouth) Hughes, rh Simon Norman, Jesse Timpson, Mr Edward Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris Nuttall, Mr David Tomlinson, Justin Davies, Philip Hunter, Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Tredinnick, David Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian Ollerenshaw, Eric Truss, Elizabeth Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hurd, Mr Nick Opperman, Guy Turner, Mr Andrew Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Jackson, Mr Stewart Osborne, rh Mr George Tyrie, Mr Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Ottaway, Richard Uppal, Paul Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Paice, rh Mr James Vaizey, Mr Edward 1045 Deferred Divisions4 JULY 2012 Deferred Divisions 1046

Vara, Mr Shailesh Wiggin, Bill Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Vickers, Martin Willetts, rh Mr David Havard, Mr Dai Onwurah, Chi Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Williams, Mr Mark Healey, rh John Osborne, Sandra Walker, Mr Robin Williams, Stephen Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert Wallace, Mr Ben Williamson, Gavin Heyes, David Perkins, Toby Walter, Mr Robert Willott, Jenny Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Ward, Mr David Wilson, Mr Rob Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen Weatherley, Mike Wilson, Sammy Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Webb, Steve Wollaston, Dr Sarah Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reeves, Rachel Wharton, James Wright, Jeremy Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Emma Wheeler, Heather Wright, Simon Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan White, Chris Young, rh Sir George Jamieson, Cathy Riordan, Mrs Linda Whittaker, Craig Zahawi, Nadhim Jarvis, Dan Robertson, John Johnson, Diana Robinson, Mr Geoffrey NOES Jones, Helen Rotheram, Steve Jones, Mr Kevan Roy, Mr Frank Abbott, Ms Diane Creagh, Mary Jones, Susan Elan Roy, Lindsay Abrahams, Debbie Cunningham, Alex Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Ruane, Chris Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sarwar, Anas Alexander, Heidi Cunningham, Sir Tony Khan, rh Sadiq Seabeck, Alison Ali, Rushanara Dakin, Nic Lammy, rh Mr David Sharma, Mr Virendra Allen, Mr Graham Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian Sheerman, Mr Barry Anderson, Mr David David, Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Sheridan, Jim Ashworth, Jonathan Davies, Geraint Leslie, Chris Shuker, Gavin Austin, Ian De Piero, Gloria Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Skinner, Mr Dennis Bailey, Mr Adrian Dobbin, Jim Lucas, Caroline Slaughter, Mr Andy Bain, Mr William Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Banks, Gordon Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, Angela Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dowd, Jim Mahmood, Mr Khalid Smith, Nick Bayley, Hugh Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana Smith, Owen Beckett, rh Margaret Dugher, Michael Malhotra, Seema Spellar, rh Mr John Bell, Sir Stuart Eagle, Ms Angela Mann, John Straw, rh Mr Jack Benn, rh Hilary Eagle, Maria Marsden, Mr Gordon Stringer, Graham Betts, Mr Clive Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael Stuart, Ms Gisela Blackman-Woods, Roberta Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Blenkinsop, Tom Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Tami, Mark Blomfield, Paul Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, John Timms, rh Stephen Blunkett, rh Mr David Engel, Natascha McGovern, Alison Trickett, Jon Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Esterson, Bill McGovern, Jim Turner, Karl Brennan, Kevin Evans, Chris McKinnell, Catherine Twigg, Derek Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Fitzpatrick, Jim Meacher, rh Mr Michael Twigg, Stephen Brown, Mr Russell Flello, Robert Meale, Sir Alan Bryant, Chris Flynn, Paul Umunna, Mr Chuka Mearns, Ian Vaz, rh Keith Buck, Ms Karen Fovargue, Yvonne Michael, rh Alun Vaz, Valerie Burden, Richard Francis, Dr Hywel Miliband, rh David Walley, Joan Burnham, rh Andy Gapes, Mike Miliband, rh Edward Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Alan Gardiner, Barry Miller, Andrew Whitehead, Dr Alan Campbell, Mr Ronnie Gilmore, Sheila Moon, Mrs Madeleine Caton, Martin Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica Williamson, Chris Chapman, Jenny Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Wilson, Phil Clark, Katy Goggins, rh Paul Munn, Meg Winnick, Mr David Clarke, rh Mr Tom Goodman, Helen Murphy, rh Mr Jim Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clwyd, rh Ann Greatrex, Tom Murphy, rh Paul Woodcock, John Coaker, Vernon Green, Kate Murray, Ian Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Coffey, Ann Greenwood, Lilian Nandy, Lisa Wright, David Connarty, Michael Griffith, Nia Nash, Pamela Wright, Mr Iain Cooper, Rosie Gwynne, Andrew Cooper, rh Yvette Hain, rh Mr Peter Corbyn, Jeremy Hamilton, Mr David Question accordingly agreed to. Crausby, Mr David Hamilton, Fabian 249WH 4 JULY 2012 Aviation 250WH

The idea that such an airport would somehow be a Westminster Hall problem-free solution that people would not complain about is, to coin a phrase, for the birds. Wednesday 4 July 2012 Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): To follow on from that, one point made by advocates of the estuary [JIM DOBBIN in the Chair] solution is that the area is crying out for new jobs. Does my hon. Friend agree that that ignores the economic Aviation growth that is already happening, particularly in south Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Essex, with the expansion of the port? That is the future be now adjourned.—(Greg Hands.) of the estuary—ports, not airports.

9.30 am Mark Reckless: My hon. Friend makes a good point, and I congratulate her on her work in campaigning for Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): It is a economic development in her area. The fundamental pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin, point is that although jobs might be created—I do not and to have the Minister respond to the debate. deny that there would be a lot of jobs; perhaps 200,000, My interest in airports first came about because, at a as some estimates suggest—they would come 10, 15 or time when many boys want to be train drivers, my 20 years from now, and would be almost entirely taken younger brother had an ambition to be an airport by a vast migration of people who would be forced to manager. Consequently, whenever we went on holiday, uproot themselves, perhaps from around Heathrow, my indulgent parents would take us to the airport four and move to a new area. In terms of Government or five hours before we needed to be there, and my engineering, I cannot see the case for that in a free brother would go around and catalogue the catering society. outlets and investigate the cleaning rosters. I was delighted, a few years later, when he decided that he actually Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): I wanted to be a doctor. congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important As an economist, I worked for a short period on debate. Has he seen the report issued by the South East airline alliances, but my most significant involvement local enterprise partnership, which states that if we with aviation came 10 years ago when, following a leak allowed our existing airports to expand, we could increase in the Financial Times a few months earlier, the then the number of jobs by about 100,000? That would Labour Government published the “South East and generate in excess of £4 billion per annum. East of England Regional Air Services Study”—SERAS— which proposed an airport twice the size of Heathrow Mark Reckless: Yes, I have seen that report, and I at a location it described as Cliffe, in the constituency I have a copy with me. Indeed, I encouraged Medway now represent. Then as now, many felt that that was a council, and through it the local enterprise partnership, stalking horse to make airport expansion elsewhere to commission that excellent study. My hon. Friend and seem more attractive by comparison. neighbour is right, and I will draw significantly on the Our first response was to look at that airport study, analysis in that paper during my speech. which we noted excluded any consideration of Gatwick expansion, on the basis that there was a planning agreement, As well as the environmental issues, there is a knock-down and it looked no further at that idea at all. I was sort of argument against the Thames estuary airport: it is blooded on that issue when I first asked whether that vastly more expensive to build a new airport than to decision was perhaps irrational and something that expand existing provision. Recently, some of those issues would be questioned by the courts. Initially, a judicial have been revisited with Boris’s pie-in-the-sky proposals, review was proposed, which ultimately led to the Labour whether for Boris island, for a Foster monstrosity over Government being forced to consider the case for a the Isle of Grain, or even to look again at the Cliffe second runway at Gatwick, even though they had previously option that was so unambiguously rejected. Some newer decided against it. issues have come to the fore. For instance, there is the London Array wind farm, and billions of pounds of The debate that took place showed that an estuary investment have been put into a major liquefied natural airport would be environmentally devastating, and that gas terminal. There is the Richard Montgomery, a the economics simply did not add up. I and many others sunken vessel laden with high explosives, which this were delighted to campaign with the Royal Society for Government—unlike the previous one—tell us about, the Protection of Birds, the Friends of North Kent and provide reports on, to clarify the risk. Furthermore, Marshes, and many others who made the case that issues of air traffic control have become even more having a huge airport in the middle of Europe’s leading significant than they were 10 years ago, partly because wetland landscape, with its millions of birds, was probably of the expansion of Schiphol airport over that period. not a good idea. I note from the Parsons Brinckerhoff report mentioned The assumption by some that no people live in that by my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and area and that there would be no opposition was put Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) that Richard Deakin, the paid to by more than 20,000 people who live on the chief executive of the National Air Traffic Services, said broader Hoo peninsula, and who would suffer egregiously that the proposed site for the new airport was from such an airport. In addition, large numbers of people live on both sides of the estuary, and any flights “directly under the convergence of major arrival and departure taking off in a westerly direction would create new flight paths for four of London’s five airports.” flight paths over heavily populated areas of London. Pointing to the Thames estuary on a map, he said: 251WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 252WH

[Mark Reckless] The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Before my hon. Friend does so, “The very worst spot you could put an airport is just about will he say if he welcomes the fact that Heathrow here…We’re a little surprised that none of the architects thought delivers more flights to China than any of its continental it worthwhile to have a little chat with the air traffic controllers.” rivals, meaning that we have excellent connectivity to important emerging markets such as China? Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate, but I am a bit depressed by the combination of nimbyism and sticking- Mark Reckless: Yes, I hugely welcome that. From plaster solutions that he puts forward. Is he aware that listening to the debate that is dominated by a small the UK remains without any direct connection to 11 cities number of players with the strongest vested interests in mainland China that are expected to be among the and the most public relations consultants, one would 25 biggest cities in the world by 2025? Only a hub get almost the reverse impression. When we talk about airport can deliver the sort of connectivity for which flights to China, it is important to remember that the businesses in Orpington, and doubtless in my hon. reason why we have relatively few different city Friend’s constituency, are crying out. destinations—that is separate from the overall number of flights, which the Minister was right to raise and I Mark Reckless: I encourage my hon. Friend to listen think is more important—is that it is for the convenience to the rest of my speech, and not merely to recycle of British Airways, the dominant player at Heathrow, to briefings that I, too, have received. There are many use Hong Kong as a hub airport for China, in exactly arguments for a hub airport, and I do not deny that the way that it uses Heathrow as a hub here, through the some are valid. Many, however, are recycled by industry Oneworld alliance and Cathay Pacific. players with strong vested interests that are not necessarily those of the country as a whole. However, I will address Joseph Johnson: First, on a point of fact, according my hon. Friend’s point later in my remarks. to BAA, London has only 31 flights a week to two Finally, some estimates suggest that the cost of the destinations in mainland China, whereas there are 56 to proposal will be £40 billion, £50 billion or even £100 billion. three such cities from Paris Charles de Gaulle airport, The Parsons Brinckerhoff report, a substantive piece of and 51 to four such cities from Frankfurt. Furthermore, work, argues that my hon. Friend references Hong Kong and Shanghai. Surely he is aware of the additional cost that comes “even the £70 billion being discussed is a conservative estimate.” from having to route products, goods and services through Boris tells us that that money will come from private Shanghai and Hong Kong, as opposed to sending them investors. Yes, but they will want a return. Even if we directly to where the market is, in mainland China. Our are looking at a 5% interest rate over a 50-year period, a businesses are crying out for connectivity. That is an return on that sort of money will add at least £50 to the obstacle. cost of every plane ticket from the airport. Why would airlines, passengers, the Government, indeed anyone, want to pay that sort of money when the cost of Mark Reckless: I made no mention of Shanghai. The expanding existing airports—including some that Members reason why there are only 31— present may be promoting—is so much smaller? The coalition Government were right to reverse the Joseph Johnson: Hong Kong is a transhipment point. policy that the previous Government decided on in 2003. To recap, the then Government’s recommendation Mark Reckless: I mentioned Hong Kong, and the was a second runway at Stansted by 2011-12, a third reason why Hong Kong is used so much is that that is runway at Heathrow by 2015 to 2020 and, following our hugely to the economic benefit of BA, Cathay Pacific judicial review, a second runway at Gatwick from the and the Oneworld alliance. They use Hong Kong for mid-2020s. The strongest reason why we were right to exactly the same reasons why my hon. Friend promotes overturn that is that the projections on which the Labour Heathrow—these great hub economics, which are certainly Government operated from 2003 were, as I and many to the benefit of the airline providing a service. There others set out clearly at the time, wholly unrealistic. are arguments for hub airports, but the arguments that They were based on a low case of 400 million passenger my hon. Friend makes for point-to-point services to movements for the UK by 2030, and a high case of more cities are very strong ones. As for why we do not 600 million. have them, I refer to a written answer from the Minister in March 2012. I do not know whether my hon. Friend Kwasi Kwarteng (Spelthorne) (Con): I am listening the Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson) has seen with great attention and fascination to my hon. Friend’s it. It states: speech, but he has not addressed a very pertinent point “China—restricted to six points in the UK and six points in raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington China since 2004”— (Joseph Johnson): at present we do not have access, or according to a 2004 treaty— cannot fly directly, to those cities in China. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood “with a current limit of 31 passenger services per week by the (Mark Reckless) will come to that in his speech, but I airlines of each side allowed”.—[Official Report, 14 March 2012; am conscious that it is probably one of the most important Vol. 542, c. 239W.] questions that he could address, and I would very much If my hon. Friend would like to see more flights to more like to hear his thoughts on it. Chinese cities, the way to do it is to rip up that treaty, and for the UK to move to a unilateral open-skies Mark Reckless: In deference to my hon. Friend, I shall position that allows any Chinese airline to fly to any city bring forward my remarks on that point. in the UK. 253WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 254WH

Kwasi Kwarteng: I am trying to work through the our country as a whole, within the existing constraints maze of complicated arguments that my hon. Friend is of Heathrow—of course, others will argue that it needs presenting, but I have just a simple question. Does he to be bigger or we need a hub somewhere else and so believe that the United Kingdom as a whole needs more on—European legislation prevents us from having that. aviation capacity? Anyone who wants to set up a marginal route to an emerging market needs to buy out, at vast expense, one Mark Reckless: Yes. of the existing airlines, particularly BA, which has a near monopoly power. They have to give BA a huge Tracey Crouch: There is an argument about competitiveness, amount of money to take the slots they need for those and that argument is for today. Our colleagues are routes. The reason why they cannot do that is cost, yet arguing that businesses in their constituencies require we have treaties that restrict the amount of access that the opportunities now. Therefore we should be making overseas airlines have into the UK. They could otherwise the most of our existing airports, rather than waiting be flying into Gatwick, Stansted or Birmingham as city two decades for a new airport to be built to maximise pairs, but the routes and slots are at Heathrow, and the opportunities. regulation creates that monopoly power.

Mark Reckless: I agree. There is huge scope for what Kwasi Kwarteng: Is my hon. Friend seriously suggesting my hon. Friend describes. It would hugely benefit not that the key to our aviation problems is ripping up the just the Medway towns and the south-east region, but treaty of Rome? the country as a whole. I want to talk about one other area where the lobbyists Mark Reckless: It would certainly help. There are have a certain position. I received a document yesterday other ways in which the issue could be addressed; for from the Mayor of London, who tells me that he is instance, the air passenger duty regime. Many lobbyists delighted that I am having this debate. He says: are against the size of air passenger duty, but in operating “France’s hub airport, Paris Charles de Gaulle (56 departures conditions where there is an almost perfect monopoly per week), has better connections to Brazil than Heathrow at Heathrow and, at peak and to an extent shoulder (27 departures per week).” periods, a monopoly at Gatwick, what happens through The reason is that we have a bilateral treaty with Brazil, the increase in air passenger duty is that some of the with a current limit of 35 passenger services a week monopolised value of those slots and the power of the between the two countries. Again, that is vastly to the grandfather rights are given instead to the public purse. benefit of BA, which routes flights to Latin America, It is not a situation of perfect competition in which including Brazil in particular, through the joint hub costs are passed on. To the extent that costs rise, whether that it now has in Madrid, through Iberia following the they are landing fees or APD, that will largely be merger. We do not get pressure from BA to change that, absorbed into the price, giving greater public benefit, because it hugely benefits its profits, but BA’s market and possibly driving some of the marginal leisure stuff capitalisation is in the low billions. The idea that our out of Heathrow and Gatwick. whole airline policy and the network of treaties negotiated by the previous Government should restrict those flights Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Would and prevent Brazilian or Chinese airlines from flying the hon. Gentleman mind running past me again how into our large cities is a huge mistake. the treaty of Rome is an obstacle to more liberal air service agreements with other countries? When I was Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): aviation Minister, we signed agreements with a variety Even if we were to rip up every treaty that my hon. of countries to allow more liberalised flight access to Friend has identified as a block, does he seriously both countries, and the treaty of Rome was not an believe that there is sufficient capacity at our hub airport? obstacle then. Given Gatwick’s recent expansion into Will a hub airport alone sustain newly developing point- five new routes, the treaty does not seem to be an to-point routes? Does he seriously argue that Heathrow obstacle. How will tearing up the treaty of Rome solve could suddenly accommodate more routes to developing our aviation competitiveness questions? countries? Mark Reckless: There are two problems: first, the Mark Reckless: Yes, I do argue that. The limit on treaty of Rome gives property rights in-slot to airlines Heathrow’s routes to developing countries is largely that have traditionally had them, which prevents new because of the fact that those who have the slots find it airlines from coming in with marginal routes to new most profitable to put on vast numbers of flights to emerging market countries, due to the cost of buying New York and almost as large numbers to Hong Kong. out the monopolist. Only more and more fights to New It would benefit the country as a whole much more if York or Hong Kong make such routes work. Secondly, there were a wider network of routes, rather than just the previous Government protected the monopolistic what happens to benefit British Airways and maximise BA with restrictive agreements that prevent Brazilian its profits. To get to what my hon. Friend suggests, the airlines from flying here, saying that there should be no treaty we need to rip up is the treaty of Rome, because it more than 35 passenger services a week and allowing is under European directives—[Interruption.] The reason only 31 a week to China. If we want more flights to why the slots are organised as they are is that they have emerging markets, we should just let Brazilian and been capitalised into property rights for the airlines that Chinese airlines fly to any UK airport they want, without historically happen to have used them, and it is because insisting on reciprocal rights for BA. That is what is of European legislation that that has been allowed to holding the country back; the interests of Britain are happen. If we want a more effective route network for not the interests of BA. 255WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 256WH

[Mark Reckless] From Heathrow’s promoters, we hear that it is a great hub, that we need just one hub and that Paris Charles The final section of my speech is about our other de Gaulle has more destinations than us, but those airports. In 2010, we rightly said no to an estuary destinations are in French west Africa—Mali, Bangoui airport and to extra runways at Gatwick, Stansted and and Ouagadougou. I do not think that there is any Heathrow. That was the right policy for this Parliament. suggestion that that should happen from Heathrow. I do not know the Liberal Democrat position on when Most demand is leisure, not business. Heathrow still or if there should be future runway capacity in the flies more people and planes than other airports, even south-east, but it is right that the Conservatives at least those with four or six runways. look at the case for new runways as and when demand We do not necessarily need a hub that is ideal for requires. A lot can be done with existing capacity. those who happen to operate that hub. There is a Gatwick is expanding strongly and setting up point-to-point suggestion that a dual-hub is not ideal. That is true, but routes in new emerging markets, which I welcome. That it is an awful lot better than no expansion and forcing would be helped if Gatwick were allowed to invest in more and more people to use European airports. According the A380 facilities by charging more and coming to its to the constrained Department for Transport forecast, own arrangements with new airlines to build those which I find questionable in a number of ways, if we do facilities without existing suppliers having a veto. I not allow expansion in the south-east, 25 million rather would support greater deregulation of Gatwick in that than 4 million people will fly from Belfast by 2050 and regard. 12 million people rather than 700,000 will fly from I understand that the option now being promoted by Exeter by 2030. the Mayor of London is Stansted. Since the previous I question the plausibility of those forecasts, but if we White Paper and the Labour Government’s view, usage deregulate air travel and allow a second runway at at Stansted has fallen off significantly and intercontinental Gatwick in due course, after the agreement runs out in flights there have stopped. The Mayor says that we 2019—I agree with the hon. Member for Cambridge should expand Crossrail to Stansted, and I am keen to (Dr Huppert) that it should not be immediately—it will discuss that. He may have ideas that I have not appreciated make it more attractive for the airline to expand in the fully, and that are certainly a lot more constructive than airport. At some point, the Liberal Democrats may his pie in the sky proposals for a Thames estuary think that we will need at least one runway in the airport. south-east. The strongest demand from the vested interests is for that to be at Heathrow, but there is a strong Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate argument for the country as a whole for it to be at the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. When I Gatwick. It would benefit from being there because we spoke to those at Stansted recently, they made it clear would then have competing hubs, with potentially another that, given that the airport was at only 50% capacity, airline alliance based at Gatwick. It would drive down they want no more discussion of a second runway—that prices, serve more destinations and operate for the just messes up their relationship with the local community. benefit of UK consumers as a whole, rather than just Stansted wants a better rail service. I hope that he will those who happen to have the strongest vested interests support that. and shout loudest in current consultations. Mark Reckless: That is certainly the position in the short-term. I am keen to see better surface travel into Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): I congratulate my Gatwick. The deterioration in the train service there is hon. Friend on securing the debate. If I may intrude on most unfortunate. Investment is strongly in the national the London and south-east grief with a question about interest. the midlands, what are his views on encouraging passengers The British Chambers of Commerce initially proposed from the midlands and further north not to go to a “Heathwick” arrangement. There are some issues Gatwick or Heathrow for their leisure flights, but to use with the economics of it, but the existing system is the the airport they are driving past? Does he support the reason why it could be attractive. If we allowed Gatwick idea of a congestion charge around London to make to invest £5 billion in a super-fast railway to Heathrow—by regional airports more competitive? the way, BA, it would take 15 minutes airside, rather than an hour to connect them—it would be regulated Mark Reckless: Higher APD on short-haul flights capital and would lead to higher slot prices at Gatwick, from Gatwick and particularly Heathrow could allow which is a good thing anyway. Our problem with aviation airports beyond the south-east to compete for marginal in this country has been that we have held down the cost business that might make more sense at those airports, of landing fees at Heathrow and Gatwick, which means particularly the leisure flights of people based in the that they are operating at near capacity with all the midlands and the north who are flying point to point. problems mentioned. If we allowed landing fees to rise Similarly, if we deregulated our international air agreements, and entirely deregulated Gatwick and Heathrow, there there would be a better chance that intercontinental would be a big transfer of economic value from the networks would base themselves at Birmingham airport, airlines to BAA. for example, which now has a longer runway. Another way to do it would be differential APD, particularly on short-haul flights at Heathrow. Because Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): My hon. Friend we could get the cost back from higher landing charges makes a powerful case. An argument is that regional at Gatwick, Heathwick, although not ideal, might make airports across the country will take up some of the sense within the existing system; it would press out slack. My airport, Leeds Bradford, has invested heavily— some of the leisure point-to-point flights from Gatwick £11 million—in expansion and has new links to Heathrow. and allow intercontinental flights to come there. Is it not the case that despite the important role that 257WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 258WH regional airports play across the country, they will not short-term expansion is being done very well at the lessen the need for expansion in the south-east and moment, and there could be longer-term expansion, but London? Ultimately, people want to fly into the capital only once the 2019 agreement runs out—it would be a city of a country and we cannot get away from that fact. much more sensible way forward. There is a basket of other options, all of which make more sense than Mark Reckless: Yes, I think that is right. My argument harking back to the preposterous estuary airport proposal, is that it is entirely conceivable to have two hubs. or looking at UK aviation solely through the issue of a Heathrow currently has many more passengers and third runway at Heathrow. planes using it than most of the other supposed competing hubs. The problem is that the slot prices are very high Several hon. Members rose— and profits are being maximised by those who, under EU law, own the property rights in those slots. If Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Order. I have had seven instead we allow a second hub, and Gatwick is the more notifications from hon. Members who want to speak. I attractive and conceivable hub to develop, and both intend to call the shadow Minister at 20 minutes to 11, operate in that way, competing airlines would drive so we have less than 40 minutes for those seven speeches. down prices and give many more links to emerging markets, rather than very thick routes to New York and 10.2 am Hong Kong. That is my view, but perhaps the Mayor of Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): It London has considered matters that I have not. Stansted, is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr and potentially regional airports—Southend and, I am Dobbin, for what I think is the first time. delighted to see, Luton are developing in this way—could take many more point-to-point leisure flights, rather I congratulate the hon. Member for Rochester and than them flying from Gatwick, or even Heathrow. Why Strood (Mark Reckless) on obtaining this important does Heathrow have so many flights to Orlando? Why debate on the different issues relating to competition in does it have flights to Malaga or Larnaca? the aviation industry. I agree with many of the points he made, and it is worth exploring further the points There is a very strong case for Gatwick. Many regional with which I disagree. He is serious about trying to find airports can help with the load. The debate that we have a solution to the country’s aviation policies, and that is been having about aviation has been horribly distorted worth discussing. Judging by the expressions of by what I am afraid are preposterous efforts by the everyone taking part in the debate, there is agreement Mayor of London to put the Thames estuary airport on that Boris island is a complete non-starter. It is a decoy the agenda, 10 years after it was categorically ruled out, duck, Potemkin village, a red herring, or, as the and by the issue of Heathrow. Very strong vested interests previous Labour Secretary of State said, bonkers; it want expansion at Heathrow. There are some economic will not happen. But it is part of the illusions around arguments for the country as a whole for expansion aviation policy—which are the basis not of what the there. However, there are costs, in terms of those living hon. Gentleman has been saying but of the under the flight path, and in terms of our political Government’s policy—that somehow we do not know promises; and the value of politicians sticking to what what has been happening in aviation, and there is more they promise is strong. information to be found out. That simply is not true. As to what the Transport Secretary says, and the Going back to the Roskill commission in 1969 and a argument that “It is all very well talking about a third series of other White Papers and investigations, more is runway at Heathrow, and mixed mode, but what is the known about aviation policy in the south-east of next step?” it is incumbent on those who want expansion England than about possibly any other area. If we at Heathrow to say what happens in 30, 50 or more want to be competitive, there must be more airport years. The reason the Secretary of State does not get the capacity in the south-east. Otherwise, the decline and answers is that those with a vested interest at Heathrow— damage that lack of aviation is causing to the economy BAA and British Airways—do not want unlimited will continue. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman expansion there. It would undermine their monopoly that it is right to suspend any discussion for the length position. The idea of going for mixed mode is attractive of the Parliament. It might be right for the coalition to BA—not necessarily to BAA, because it does not get agreement, but it is not right for the economy. the higher regulated capital. A third runway allowing marginal expansion of perhaps another 20 million Mark Reckless: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? passengers is attractive, because it maintains the value of the slots but allows them to develop. My hon. Friend Graham Stringer: I will in a moment, but I want to the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) may go through some of the points that the hon. Gentleman want to discuss the fact that if we want Heathrow to be made. a mega-hub, perhaps remaining the biggest in the world I do not think the “Heathwick” proposal works in and taking on Dubai as well as competitors in Europe— detail. When I give way to the hon. Gentleman I want there are strong arguments against that, particularly him to tell me about any city in the world—Toronto, from the point of view of people who live in the area, Washington, Glasgow—that has tried having two and the environment—it could mean taking over RAF airports. There are examples all round the world of Northolt and putting in several runways linked into countries saying “We will have an intercontinental Heathrow, as a long-term single giant hub solution. airport here and a domestic one there,” and finding Despite arguments that two hubs are not ideal, that is that neither of those airports has worked. Off the top a far better solution than complete constraint on any of my head, I cannot think of a city with two expansion, or only looking after the interests of Heathrow. competing hubs. The nature of hubs, and what makes If we were to see the Oneworld alliance at Gatwick— them valuable—both for countries and airlines—is that 259WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 260WH

[Graham Stringer] Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman agree that some of the problems that airlines from all over the world go into them, with great he has just described result not from lack of capacity interconnectivity. The idea of competing hubs is a but from poor prioritisation? Hundreds of flights every contradiction in terms, and there is no real evidence day to and from Heathrow involve places that do not in that having two adjoining airports works. any way contribute to Heathrow’s hub status. We have short-haul flights, flights to Malaga and 15 flights a day to Cyprus. Such point-to-point flights could happen at Mark Reckless: I am delighted to have some discussion any other airport. We have masses of spare capacity, of the issue in the current Parliament, and I look but it is not all at Heathrow. If that is the problem, forward to hearing from the Minister what decisions surely the priority is to make better use of existing may be made about how that discussion should happen. capacity and to get rid of some of those pointless flights I just do not think we should build any new runways that could easily happen elsewhere. during this Parliament. I disagree about dual hubs. Perhaps the idea has been Graham Stringer: I always find that a particularly tried in, say, Tokyo and one or two other places and has difficult argument to be put by Conservatives, who not been ideal, but we are not making a comparison suddenly want to plan routes and move away from a with the ideal; we are making a comparison with the completely deregulated market in Europe—apart from constrained capacity possibility that 14 million people where it is constrained by slots. Having argued ideologically might try to fly from Exeter. Expanding Gatwick, rather for that position, all of a sudden they want to tell than restricting it, will not result in the perfect economic aeroplanes that they can only go from Manchester and hub airport, but hubs give declining returns, to scale, to Leeds and not from London. I do not believe that that the extent that they get bigger and bigger. If we allow is the Conservative party’s position at all. Even if we flights to new emerging markets and competing hubs put up the price of slots, which has been kept artificially operating in the competitive interest of the country, low by how slots are regulated, we would not necessarily rather than one hub operating in the interest of the get the flights going to the right parts of the world that monopolist based there, that would be a significantly will benefit this economy. We would get even more better airline policy than the one we have. flights going to New York and the west coast of the United States because those are the most profitable Graham Stringer: All I would say is that the proposition routes from this country in the short term. The two has not worked. We are in decline and we need extra cheap slots would not solve the problem because the runways in the south-east. Only one new runway has central issue is lack of capacity. been built in this country since the second world war. I have a few more facts from the London chambers of Heathrow was, I think, originally planned to have commerce that represent the views of 350 business 12 runways, albeit in a different configuration. The hon. leaders from the BRIC countries: 92% made the general Gentleman can look at the history books if he wants to. point about the importance of direct flights; 67% said The hon. Gentleman’s argument relies on two issues: that they were more likely to do business in a place if first, that our connections to China, as the Minister of there were direct flights to it; and 62% said that they State said, mean that we are not really suffering; and would only invest in an area if there were direct flights secondly, that slots are too cheap at Heathrow, and if between the city in the country in which they were we freed up that market we would help the economy as operating and the city in which they were likely to a whole. Let me give some evidence. invest. Such flights to Brazil, Russia and China are limited. The Frontier Economics report, “Connecting for Growth”, which was produced in 2011, showed that I wanted to talk about the damage that air passenger trade is 20 times higher where there are direct flights to duty is doing to regional airports, but I do not think cities in China. It estimates that the UK is missing out that there is time because of the number of Members as trade goes to France, Germany and Holland, and who wish to contribute to this debate. None the less, quantifies the cost to the UK economy of a lack of such duty is doing damage and the Government really connections as £1.2 billion a year. Taking that present need to change their policy. Twenty-two of our competitor value over 10 years, that amounts to £14 billion. Paris countries in the EU have no air passenger duty whatever, and Frankfurt boast 1,000 more annual flights to the so imposing a duty is a ridiculous anti-competitive three largest Chinese cities, Beijing, Chongqing and position for this country to take. Guangzhou, than we get from this country. The Minister I want to talk a little about how we use capacity in the of State is right to say that we send a large number of regional airports. It is not possible to, as the hon. flights to Hong Kong, and that there is hubbing in the Members for Rochester and Strood and for Richmond Oneworld alliance at Hong Kong. The City of London Park (Zac Goldsmith) suggested, somehow move flights is doing quite a lot of damage at the moment, but if we about, but there is no reason whatever why we could not consider some of the effects, and the latest financial have a completely open skies policy in the regional centres index, the Hong Kong index has gone up by 21 airports. There is 15 times more capacity in our regional and London has gone down by three. There is a correlation, airports than would be provided by one extra runway at if not a direct one, between the hubbing that is going on Heathrow. It would be against the law to direct flights there and the damage that is being done to the UK within Europe to that runway; that simply could not economy. Forbes Magazine has shifted the UK down happen. At the moment, airlines are reluctant to make from sixth best country in the world in which to do use of the partial open skies policy in relation to major business to 10th best. One contributing factor is our regional airports with fifth freedom rights, but the connections with other countries. Government must agree that, and sometimes there are 261WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 262WH difficulties. Airlines, which have a real interest in getting Gatwick a joint hub airport, all we would do is guarantee into Heathrow, are suspicious that if they use the facility their obsolescence within a decade and the downgrading of partially open skies in the regional airports they will of the UK. It would be an absolute national disaster. be kept out in any future negotiations to get into We have heard a lot about China. Some people say Heathrow. Having a completely open skies policy in the mainland China, while others say China, which allows regions, however, might shift out one or two intercontinental us to accommodate Hong Kong into our calculations. routes. It will not change the whole structure of aviation, Let me talk specifically about Wuhan, which has been but it will help. of interest to the Department for Business, Innovation Finally, the central point of the Government’s policy, and Skills. Air France has just launched a service to especially the Liberal Democrat part, seems to be that Wuhan to facilitate PSA Peugeot Citroën’s joint venture constraining capacity in the south-east will help the with Dongfeng Motor Corporation. Despite labouring environment and not damage the economy. I hope that under the heavy burden of the treaty of Rome, France I have shown that that constraint in the south-east is has somehow managed to put its economic interests already damaging our economic competitiveness, and ahead of the interests of Brussels. How it managed it I the answer to that is to build extra runways and not a would love to know, because we could then replicate it new airport. It is worth saying, and it has been said here. Clearly, it has put economic interests ahead of before, that our policy is damaging not only our economy, narrow, petty interests. as we are, in effect, helping other hubs in France, I am fascinated to note that COMAC—the Commercial Germany, Denmark, Spain and Holland to do better, Aircraft Corporation of China, a new Chinese aircraft but our environment. When planes take off from the manufacturer—is basing itself in Europe not in London United Kingdom, taking passengers to airports such as but in Paris. I wonder why that is. Could it be because Schiphol to pick up intercontinental flights, they are France has better links to China? Could it be because putting more nitrous oxide, sulphur oxides and carbon France is where China is getting inward investment dioxide into the atmosphere than would otherwise be from? Surely not. the case. Although the whole aviation debate needs to If I had had more time this morning, I would also be opened up, the solutions have been known for a long have mentioned air passenger duty. I realise that it is a time, and the Government have had their head in the controversial issue, but I make this plea: will the Department sand for their whole time in office. for Transport try to encourage the Treasury to conduct an independent economic assessment, bringing in all Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Order. Six Members still relevant factors, of the overall cost of APD to the UK wish to speak in this interesting and important debate, economy? If I had more time, I would go on to talk so they will have roughly four minutes each before those about Chinese tourism. I know that it has been the on the Front Bench respond subject of what might be called civil war in higher echelons in the Government, but it crystallises the problem 10.17 am that we face in this country. The problem is not that we have APD per se; it is the scale of our APD, compared Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): to that charged by our competitors, that is a real problem. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, We have heard lots of discussion about south-east Mr Dobbin. In four minutes, I will speedily go through airport capacity and about where airports should or some of the points that I want to raise. First, may I should not be sited. We have also heard mention of mention the passengers? We did not hear my hon. New York, which has found what I would described as a Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark “string of pearls”solution—a number of sizeable airports, Reckless) say much about them. It is almost as if they all of which act as international gateways, but none of are a pain in the neck for wanting to travel. I happen to which actually act as hubs. There is a perfectly logical regard leisure travel as a good thing—rather liberating, and coherent argument to be put forward to say that in fact. May I also say—I did not hear my hon. Friend that is what the UK might need. I would disagree with say this—well done to the Government? The Minister that argument, but it would be a rational argument to might be shocked by that remark, given my track record make. on aviation. Interestingly, in the Mayor of London’s submission, The South East Airports Taskforce has effectively ahead of this debate, I could find no mention of Boris sweated our assets in the south-east, increasing throughput island. Can the Minister confirm that that option has at all major airports. Like the hon. Member for Blackley been officially removed from the table? I looked very and Broughton (Graham Stringer), I speak as a northern carefully; perhaps it was my eyesight, but I just could MP. Most of my constituents and businesses stopped not see it. using Heathrow as a hub long ago, which is one reason why Heathrow is already in decline. For the north of England, the hub is Amsterdam or Paris, which is a 10.21 am major national problem. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you, Mr Dobbin, I congratulate the Government on their recognition, for calling me to speak. earlier this year, that we need a hub airport in the UK, I congratulate the hon. Member for Rochester and and that we need only one hub airport. If I had more Strood (Mark Reckless) on securing this debate and than four minutes, I could give a lecture on the economics bringing the issue to the House today. In four minutes, I of hub dynamics. There is no such thing as a twin hub; quickly want to give the Northern Ireland angle. In it is a contradiction in terms. I could tear out my hair in particular, I want to mention a subject that is often frustration every time I see that idea printed, or hear talked about, and perhaps hated: air passenger duty. It it being discussed. If we tried to make Heathrow and is an issue that must be considered. 263WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 264WH

[Jim Shannon] last month, all the other airlines there upped their prices, and the reason was clear—they had less to Recent press coverage of APD shows that the compete with. Their flights were being almost filled at Government raise very little money from internal flights higher prices, which in the long term will affect businesses. from Northern Ireland, and airlines actually take advantage A flight from Belfast can cost approximately £400 to of the tax and retain it when flights are not taken up, as £500. One can get a flight to the USA for £450. There they charge a fee and most people do not ask for the has to be something wrong there, with regard to refund. That was not the intention with regard to the competitiveness. tax, and that is the first thing that must change if we are The UK aviation industry provides about 352,000 jobs to boost competitiveness. and more than £8.6 billion in tax each year, as well as I spoke to the hon. Gentleman yesterday about this contributing more than £50 billion to Britain’s gross debate and I said very clearly that I wanted to put domestic product. It is a major player in the economy of forward the Northern Ireland angle. With the Government Great Britain, and when it comes to improving Britain’s committed to regional rebalancing in the UK, and an international competitiveness, it is very important. economy that is heavily reliant on the south-east, where In conclusion, in a history class many moons ago, I better to start than with a change to APD? I understand was taught that the secret of the success of Great that APD does not apply to flights to Scottish islands. If Britain was her mastery of the seas; that probably the Government are serious about rebalancing the UK shows my age. That was not simply about having a good economy, surely Northern Ireland should have the same fishing fleet, or the Royal Navy; it was about having treatment in relation to APD as the Scottish islands. connections and building up trade all over the world. Making that change would send a strong signal that the That must be an ingredient in our continuing success, Government are serious about regional rebalancing. and the key to true competitiveness. As a frequent flier from Northern Ireland to the mainland UK, I am well aware of flight prices and the 10.26 am critical importance of having a good flight system and links. Having spoken to various airport managers, I Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate know there are some central themes that continually the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark emerge. I want to touch on those themes quickly. Reckless) on securing the debate. The first is future national economic growth. The We are world leaders in the aviation industry. London UK needs improved links to key emerging markets. I is the best connected city in the world, with seven was surprised to learn that UK businesses trade 20 times runways operating at six airports, and Birmingham, as much with countries to which there are daily flights Manchester and Edinburgh all pose formidable regional than with those countries with which we have a less challenges to the dominance of the south-east. Gatwick frequent service, or no direct service at all. It is very is opening new routes to China, Vietnam and South clear that the more direct flights to countries we have, Korea. British Airways has global alliances for massive the more our economy will grow, the more employment hub operations. Airlines are competing to make use of will grow, and the more we all benefit. We must boost the capacity we have, particularly since the BAA monopoly growth by increasing inward investment and exports. was broken. Improving international connectivity is critical if those However, there are constraints. By 2050, the UK things are to happen. That is one reason why must cut its carbon emissions by 80%. That is an competitiveness is an essential component of growth. important and challenging task, and if we allowed We should have regular contact with the BRIC countries— unconstrained expansion of aviation, as has been suggested Brazil, Russia, India and China—and we should open by some Members, I believe that it would be all but up more links with them, because that will boost our impossible to achieve it. Given the environmental economy. constraints, what kind of growth can we manage to London is open for business, and so is Gatwick have? airport, in particular. However, although in the summer In 2009, the independent Committee on Climate months Gatwick is at full peak capacity, at other parts Change said that if we are to meet our 2050 target, the of the year it is not. Sometimes it is operating only at aviation industry must not emit more than around 37.5 78% capacity. The hon. Member for Rochester and million tonnes of carbon dioxide a year by 2050. Allowing Strood spoke about that. There is potential for a further for increased plane loads, new technology and fuel 11 million passengers to use Gatwick every year, which improvements, that allows for a 60% increase on current would represent a 25% increase on current levels. Gatwick passenger numbers to around 368 million passengers has secured new direct routes to China, Hong Kong, per annum. That is the carbon budget that we can have. South Korea, Vietnam and Nigeria. In each of these countries, there are opportunities for economic benefit, What is the capacity constraint? We have enough and the routes can only strengthen and enhance the spare capacity in this country already. We can get to the possibilities. limit imposed by our environmental obligations without The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) spoke any new runways anywhere: not at Heathrow, not at about the need to improve rail surface access links to Gatwick, and not at Stansted. That is why the Liberal airports, and that is important, too. Millions of air Democrats oppose the expansion of the airports in the passengers go on to use other transport infrastructure, south-east. We have spare capacity, and if we were to such as rail lines. It is imperative that those lines are up build more capacity and make use of all of it we would to the standard that is expected of a thriving central do irreparable damage to our global environment. business hub. That will encourage new flight-lines, which It is very hard to forecast demand, as the old “predict in turn will encourage competitiveness in the market. and provide” approach of the previous Government As soon as bmibaby pulled out of Belfast City airport tried to do. Even in the US, the Federal Aviation 265WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 266WH

Administration says that it is not possible to make certainly not right either, for a whole range of reasons; reliable forecasts beyond 2030, so I simply do not it is expensive, there is a higher risk of bird strike and it understand how any Government think they can forecast does not serve the north. demand to 2050. That is particularly true given that, Our consideration of where to have a new hub needs with the possible exception of the Secretary of State for to be subject to some serious constraints: a strategy for Business, Innovation and Skills, people are very bad at removing excess capacity above the climate change cap forecasting recessions and other economic changes. outside the airport; no net increase in the number of We also have local environmental problems that make UK runways, so that we would have to close some to a huge difference to our nation’s well-being. One in four make up for new openings; greater recognition of the of all those in Europe who are affected by aviation noise need to serve both north and south; and significantly live under the Heathrow flight path. I find it astonishing lower noise impacts than at Heathrow. We could have that so little has been done about that, and that the something that is better both economically and previous Labour Government were so keen to keep environmentally, and I hope that the Government will blindly increasing Heathrow. Now Labour are completely consider the matter very carefully. and utterly unclear as to what their policy on Heathrow expansion is; if the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse 10.31 am (Jim Fitzpatrick), the shadow Minister, wants to try to say what it is, I would be delighted to hear from him. Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): The UK aviation No? industry has been a remarkable success story, post war. Aviation planning has categorically failed to take It is the second largest in the world. It has been so account of the north-south divide, and how we can successful that most of us take it for granted and ensure that we provide decent air quality and access to assume it will always be there. Sometimes we are a little decent public transport. About half of all emissions disparaging of British Airways as a national carrier, but from aviation are actually caused by the ground access it is a competitive world out there, and in Schiphol, to the airport rather than by the planes themselves. Rail Charles de Gaulle and Frankfurt there are people who access, which is being called for by so many airports want to compete with us and take jobs away. The now, is critical in reducing those emissions. aviation industry creates lots of well-paid jobs for lots of people, so we must think clearly about where we are This is a very abbreviated speech so I cannot go going with it. through all the detail. What is the way forward? I have been very clear about Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted; It is perfectly sensible to say “We will not expand I say a big “no,” and I am delighted that that is what the Heathrow” or “We will not expand Gatwick” or “We coalition agreement says. I have also been very clear will not expand Stansted”, but it is not sensible to say about what we need to do to control UK aviation that we will not expand any of them. At some point, we policy. We need to get the greatest hubbing potential have to increase airway capacity in the south-east of that we can and achieve the greatest economic benefit England. Some of the Belper pilots who came to lobby possible, given all the constraints. us last week pointed out that one of the most environmentally dangerous things is to have 15 aircraft We should support growth, such as we are seeing at sitting on a runway running their engines while waiting Gatwick; a fifth of Gatwick’s capacity is still free. for a take-off slot. Sometimes, an additional runway Gatwick is doing well and it wants a new rail service. might not necessarily be a bad thing environmentally. Stansted is half-full; its big call is for a new rail service, We can do a lot to have smart working at Heathrow, and not a new runway. Birmingham is looking to expand I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond and Manchester already has two runways. We need to Park (Zac Goldsmith) that considering slot allocation provide the rail links to make those airports work. would be a sensible way to begin. We also need to reform air passenger duty. It is It would be sensible to have a link between Heathrow poorly designed, has a number of anomalies and favours and Gatwick. Given their proximity, a fast rail route short flights for which there are overground alternatives. would provide consumers with more diversity and variety We should be moving towards a per-plane duty. We of choice. However, the principal area that ought to be should introduce new noise limits in population centres expanded is Stansted. I use the airport myself, and to incentivise quieter planes, and tough requirements sometimes it looks as though it is half-shut. It has a lot for low-emission surface access, to reduce the overall of capacity but its biggest weakness is the rail link with impact. We also need to support the European Union’s central London. Passengers amble through the Essex emissions trading scheme, to promote the “polluter countryside wondering whether they will ever get to the pays” principle. airport. On one occasion I was late for a flight, and I What about the hub? Although the Government have burnt up a lot of nervous energy on the way. If we could done well to rule out proposals for a third runway and get a fast rail connection from Stansted to the rest of other expansion, we should also put an end to talk of the rail network and the tube system and halve the mixed-mode operations at Heathrow. They cause damage journey time from 60 minutes to 30 or 35, many more to the air and through the noise they create; they are a people would use the airport. Stansted is as far from non-starter and provide very little benefit. Heathrow is London as de Gaulle is from Paris and Schiphol is from badly located, and mixed-mode operations would give Amsterdam, and potentially there is capacity for more all the pain with little of the gain. We need to move people to start using it. point-to-point flights elsewhere, as has been discussed, The other advantage of Stansted is that significant reform the EU allocation rules and perhaps consider a numbers of people do not live around it. One only has departure tax. Heathrow is not the place for a hub to stand in the constituency of my hon. Friend the airport, but as Members have said, Boris island is Member for Richmond Park and watch the number of 267WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 268WH

[Mr Robert Syms] get to—a terrible location. I cannot see any real attraction in it. No offence to the hon. Member for Cambridge aircraft coming in to realise that putting a lot of money (Dr Huppert), but it is not a solution for a national into expanding Heathrow is not the environmentally airport for the UK. Such a solution would be a complete sensible thing to do. One has to pay regard to the many disaster. If we want fast rail links into London, let us millions of people who live below the flight path. have high-speed rail, and then Birmingham airport can We can be smarter. We can invest in rail links and, at become London Birmingham airport, or some other some point, we will have to increase capacity by putting such preposterous name. in more runways, with the logical place being the More seriously, if we are trying to balance the economy underutilised Stansted. Although Heathrow will always away from the south-east, and out to the midlands and remain the hub, we can be a bit smarter with the the north, aviation can play a role in encouraging airports airports around London and make them a bit more in those areas to get more flights, including flights to efficient, thereby promoting our national interest. the new emerging markets. The midlands is the centre of the UK’s manufacturing industry, so it would be good to have links between those local businesses and the 10.34 am major areas they serve. My constituency, for example, Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): It is a pleasure to has about 550 employees at Rolls-Royce, who fly all serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. I congratulate over the work. If we are a Government looking at my hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood regional benefit rates and regional pay, why can we not (Mark Reckless) on securing the debate. We have, I consider regional air passenger duty? We have done it think, focused a little too much on the impact in the for Northern Ireland, so why not do it elsewhere and try south-east and have not looked at the full national to give the areas concerned a chance to build up their interest, although my hon. Friend tried to do so. I want competitive airports, increase capacity, attract new routes, to talk about the impact of aviation policy on the and generally grow the market outside London? midlands. I do not pretend that the majority of people will not One thing that pushes flight numbers in the south-east want to fly to London, and that that is not where the up to near capacity is passengers from the midlands economic powerhouse will be, but we ought to consider needlessly driving down to use its airports—Gatwick in the scope and capability that exists outside London as particular—to go on holiday, when there are perfectly well, rather than just forcing people into the capital’s sensible flights, probably to the same places, from midlands airports, which happen to be relatively cheap to fly to airports, which, in many cases, people drive straight because they already have full capacity, in which they past. Trying to find ways not of forcing but of encouraging are protected, and because regulation keeps the prices such passengers to use the midlands airports rather down. than the London ones has to be a way of solving the Finally, if we want our national hub to be truly problem. I agree with the hon. Member for Blackley national, we must ensure that regional airports to which and Broughton (Graham Stringer) that it is strange for the rail journey is too long have access to the hub. a Conservative to want to regulate and to force people Otherwise, airlines will discontinue their routes to Belfast to do something, so I suggest that we do exactly the and Scotland, for example, because they can make more opposite. The problem is that once we start regulating profit from routes to New York, and the hub will an industry and a market, we end up with a problem become purely a London and south-east one. That is and decide that the solution is to regulate a bit more or not an attractive way of growing the economy all around a bit differently, or to bolt something on, to try to force the country. a change in the behaviour that the regulation created in the first place. I suspect that the answer in this case is to deregulate much more of the industry. Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): We have hit the deadline of 20 minutes to 11. I call the shadow Minister. I am not at all convinced of the logic of forcing BAA to sell Gatwick, and now Stansted, only to end up still economically regulating both airports. Surely we only 10.39 am regulate a dominant player in the market, and it is hard to see how in one market there can be three. I would free Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): It is a everything up and let Gatwick and Stansted compete pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Dobbin. I congratulate with Heathrow, to see what they could do. That would the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark get us a much better short-term fix than any of the Reckless) on securing this important debate. We all other options. keenly anticipate the publication of the Government’s In the midlands, what can we do to encourage people consultation documents—a subject that I will come to use the regional airports? An interesting report was back to later. If they had already published them, we produced by Birmingham airport, and we have all seen might not have needed this debate. None the less, this is the adverts on the tube about not putting all our eggs in a great opportunity for the Minister to update us on the Heathrow’s basket. If we are talking about fast rail links documents. between airports and London, we have a plan for that; As many Members have said, aviation is a success it is called high-speed rail to Birmingham, and it will story, whether we are talking about the Scottish airports, reduce the journey time from Birmingham airport to Manchester, Birmingham, East Midlands, or the other London to just over 40 minutes, which is not far off the regional airports. The focus of this debate, and the aspiration that my hon. Friend the Member for Poole focus generally in recent years, has been on London and (Mr Syms) mentioned for Stansted. I have driven to the south-east. The third runway debate has overshadowed Stansted airport a few times, and it is an awful place to the excellent work, which a number of colleagues have 269WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 270WH mentioned, being done at Gatwick, London City, Luton The hon. Member for Orpington (Joseph Johnson), and Stansted, but the capacity of the south-east remains who is no longer present, gave a couple of quotes from the big issue. the Mayor of London’s briefing. To save time, I will not Our aviation industry is central to our economic repeat what he said, but he did not cite two points— prosperity and should be a key driver of growth, without although others have mentioned this—relating to the which we have no prospect of emerging from the dangerous loss of visitors to the UK. The Mayor’s briefing states: economic situation that we are in. The industry contributes “While France and Germany each managed to attract between at least £11 billion to UK GDP—more than 1% of the 500,000 and 700,000 visitors from China in 2010, the UK had total—although briefings for this debate state that the only 127,000. In total, France earns £1.3bn per year from Chinese figure is £23 billion. It also supports up to 200,000 jobs tourist spending on visits in the country, compared to the UK’s Chinese tourist spending receipts of £115m.” directly and 600,000 indirectly across the UK. However, just as the Government do not have a credible strategy It also notes: for growth, they have not yet managed to set out a “France’s hub airport, Paris Charles de Gaulle (56 departures credible strategy for aviation, let alone the role that it per week), has better connections to Brazil than Heathrow (27 could play in our economic situation. Aviation is a departures per week). In 2009, inward investment from Brazil totalled $800m in France, and only $1.7m in the UK.” crucial sector on which our economy depends, and the reaction from business to the Government’s decision The Mayor has a strong argument on those figures. not to set out an aviation strategy until the latter part of The Government seem to accept that there is a capacity this Parliament has ranged from incredulity to plain issue. In the Budget statement, the Chancellor referred bemusement. to south-east capacity, as did the Prime Minister in response to a question from the hon. Member for Mrs Villiers: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) during Prime Minister’s questions. As I have said, we are waiting for the Jim Fitzpatrick: If the Minister will allow me to get Government’s consultation document to indicate their to end of my remarks, I will be happy to give way to her. likely direction of travel. Constraints on aviation, whether I hope that I will be able to give way, but I am constrained from a lack of capacity or lack of investment, will not by time. stop flights happening—or increasing. As Members The chairman of the Airport Operators Association, have said, those constraints will simply displace flights Mr Ed Anderson, has said that, while the industry from the UK to Schiphol, Charles de Gaulle or elsewhere. knows what the Government are against, The hon. Member for Rochester and Strood effectively “we are not sure yet what it is in favour of”. articulated the arguments against the proposed estuary airport. He made some interesting points about EU He went on to describe “better, not bigger” as an competition law, and I will consider them carefully. “election slogan”, saying: My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton “Better not bigger doesn’t constitute a strategy.” (Graham Stringer) spoke with great authority on the Sir David Rowlands, a former permanent secretary at issue, as he always does. He mentioned in passing other the Department for Transport, has described the factors that affect aviation, such as air passenger duty, Government’s policy as “mildly extraordinary”. Baroness which was also mentioned by other colleagues. Nobody Valentine, who speaks for London First, said earlier developed the argument, but APD is a huge factor in this year that the whether people decide to go to the UK or elsewhere in “government seems content for aviation policy to drift.”—[Official Europe. Given that it brings in between £2 billion and Report, House of Lords, 24 March 2011; Vol. 726, c. 872.] £3 billion for the Treasury, it will not surrender APD, She has also said, most damningly, that but that is a factor and it needs to be looked at. “the Government’s aviation strategy is damaging our economy Another big issue that affects our economic performance and enhancing that of our EU rivals.” is visas and the obstacles we place in the way of people Seventy-four business leaders wrote to The Times, who want to come to the UK, particularly from China. saying that setting a long-term strategic direction for Moreover, as we discussed at length during deliberations aviation in London, the wider south-east and across the in the Civil Aviation Bill Committee, the performance country is a vital part of delivering the growth and jobs of the UK Border Agency—I accept that it is not the the country needs. They concluded that all options Minister’s responsibility—is harming the way that potential must be considered—short term and long term—to tourists and business visitors perceive the UK, because address growing demand. Only last week, John Longworth, of what they read and hear in the media. the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, Lack of time meant that we did not have the opportunity said: to hear a lecture by the hon. Member for Blackpool “The Government must stop tiptoeing around on aviation North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) on hub dynamics. because of short-term political considerations. Unless politicians I would be interested to read it, so perhaps he could grasp the nettle and make some tough decisions, both our export send me a copy. He made the point about the decline in and inward investment potential will suffer.” our aviation industry and the rise of Schiphol and I hope that the Minister will indicate when we will be Charles de Gaulle. able to see the consultation documents. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) reinforced the points about connectivity and regional Mrs Villiers: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? access, and the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) raised the issue of emissions. That issue has to be Jim Fitzpatrick: I assure the Minister that if I finish addressed, and we were addressing it when we were in what I have to say by 10.47 or 10.48 am, I will give way government. The industry was confident that it could to her, but I want to get my points on the record. meet the levels set, but it meant using the emissions 271WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 272WH

[Jim Fitzpatrick] think that he knows what it is, and that he is just playing games to try to throw me off. He knows that we are in trading scheme, with the expectation that emissions the throes of devising our aviation policy, and I assure would rise and that the industry would have to offset him that it is likely to be formulated way before the them elsewhere within the industry. coalition reveals its policy, which we do not think will be published until 2014, or even 2015. Dr Huppert: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Finally, I have the following questions for the Minister. What is it that the Government will publish? How long Jim Fitzpatrick: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I have we been waiting for the documents? What exactly have nearly finished—I have three minutes left—and will they consult on in the documents and—the most will give way to him when I have done so. important question of all—when will we see them? As I was saying, the industry was confident that it could meet the levels set, but the bottom line is that Lib 10.50 am Dem policy on aviation is the obstacle to the Government having any policy at all, certainly before 2015. The Minister of State, Department for Transport The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) mentioned (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I congratulate my hon. Friend the need for more capacity and made the case for the Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) Stansted, and the hon. Member for Amber Valley (Nigel on securing the debate, which has been excellent; there Mills) asked how we can give more support to regional have been many very useful contributions. There is no airports and proposed deregulation. doubt that the UK has a highly successful aviation sector, and I pay tribute to the energy and enterprise The aviation industry and Britain’s wider business that we see from that industry, in the face of challenges community came together last week to call for a cross-party as tough as the global slow-down and, of course, rising consensus on aviation that lasts beyond the term of one world oil prices. Developments over the past 20 years, Parliament. For several months, the shadow Secretary such as the introduction of low-cost, no-frills airlines, of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and have provided real passenger benefits and unprecedented Halewood (Maria Eagle), has repeatedly offered to take choice and opportunity to fly. the politics out of aviation, put party differences aside and work together on a joint aviation strategy for the In the year of the Olympics and the diamond jubilee, good of the nation. It is a clear, unambiguous offer, we are reminded once again of aviation’s critical role as with no catch. Aviation matters to the country, the the route to bringing in tourism. However, the very economy and businesses and families throughout the success of our aviation industry presents us with a key country. It is an industry that needs stability in the long challenge: how do we accommodate growth and seize term and a long-term plan that straddles Parliaments the benefits generated by aviation while meeting our and Governments. We must not repeat the party political environmental commitments and addressing the quality- wrangling that turned the proposed third runway at of-life impact of aircraft noise? Heathrow into a political football, and we must agree to It is very clear that London is one of the best-connected stick to the agreed strategy, whatever the outcome at the cities in the world, with its five busy and successful next election. airports—six, if newly expanded Southend is included. Together, those five airports provide direct links to Mrs Villiers: These issues are very important, so why around 360 international destinations, including virtually have the Opposition not suggested any ideas for dealing all the world’s great commercial centres. That compares with the long-term capacity challenges in the south-east? with just 309 such links from Paris, and 250 from They have suggested nothing at all. Frankfurt. Heathrow provides more flights to New York than Paris and Frankfurt put together, and has Jim Fitzpatrick: The Minister knows that we had a more flights to the crucial BRIC—Brazil, Russia, India game plan in place, but we lost the election. Then, as a and China—economies than other European hubs, gesture, to try to achieve national consensus on this including more services to China. important issue, we said that we would drop support for Airlines are launching new routes to key emerging-market the third runway so that we could have cross-party destinations. BA has recently announced a new service talks. We have not even had the courtesy of a reply from to Seoul. China Southern Airlines now flies from Heathrow the Secretary of State for Transport about engaging in to Guangzhou. Gatwick has a new Air China service to talks. Until the Government introduce their consultation—it Beijing, and the aviation industry continues to invest is they, not the Opposition, who are responsible for and innovate. Birmingham airport will shortly begin creating aviation policy—it is a bit rich of the Minister constructing a runway extension better to enable it to to ask me about policy. serve long-haul destinations. The operators of Heathrow and Gatwick are investing £5 billion and £1 billion Dr Huppert: The hon. Gentleman said that the Labour respectively over the next few years in better infrastructure. party dropped its support for the third runway as a Of course, it is important to press for the further gesture. Will he be clear on what his party’s policy is liberalisation of aviation, in terms of opening up the now? Is it against a third runway, or is it merely in opportunity for UK airlines to provide flights to more favour of having a blank page that can be filled with destinations—something called for by my hon. Friend anything in future? the Member for Rochester and Strood.

Jim Fitzpatrick: The hon. Gentleman tempts me to Mark Reckless: Why does it need to be UK airlines? respond but, given that I fully explained our policy Surely the benefit for the UK is to have airlines—Brazilian during a five-minute discussion only two days ago, I or Chinese as much as UK ones? 273WH Aviation4 JULY 2012 Aviation 274WH

Mrs Villiers: Naturally, trade agreements on aviation enough quickly enough to make that burden in any way between different countries provide mutual benefits. tolerable. We do not support mixed mode, which would Liberalisation and expanding the range of airlines that see the end of the much-valued respite period that can serve routes between the UK and other countries means so much to those who live with Heathrow noise can provide real benefits economically and for passengers. daily. We seek mutuality in these agreements, but we are also We need a better solution. Last year, we kicked off prepared to consider a more open approach for regional the process of deciding what that will be, with the airports along the lines proposed by the hon. Member publication of our scoping document on aviation. The for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer). 600 or so responses we received are being used to It is true that Heathrow is pretty much full, and prepare our draft aviation policy framework consultation, Gatwick, too, is starting to fill up. However, it is simply which will be published shortly. We plan to adopt the not true to claim that London’s connectivity is falling final framework in March next year, as set out in our off a cliff-edge. We are taking action right now to make business plan. It will set out the overarching economic our airports better, as well as preparing for the longer-term and environmental framework within which we want to challenges of capacity in the south-east. We are reforming see aviation grow. We also intend to issue an open call the way aviation security is delivered to make it more for evidence on maintaining the UK’s international passenger-friendly and cost-efficient. We are trialling a aviation connectivity. We will fully consider all set of operational freedoms at Heathrow, which we representations to that consultation. The shadow Minister, hope will make the airport more resilient and reliable. the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim However, we will carefully have to assess their environmental Fitzpatrick), wants us to go faster, but had no ideas impact. We are finally making progress on the single whatever to share in today’s debate. European sky, which has the potential to cut fuel-burn, improve punctuality, address noise and increase capacity. Jim Fitzpatrick: When will we see the documents, Minister? Zac Goldsmith: Will the Minister give way? Mrs Villiers: The consultation will be published shortly. Mrs Villiers: I am sorry, but I do not have time. If I have time at the end, I will give way. Jim Fitzpatrick: Does “shortly”mean before the summer We have an extensive programme of surface access recess? improvements under way. Hon. Friends were right to raise that as being important for our aviation Mrs Villiers: The consultation will be published shortly. competitiveness. Manchester is getting a new Metrolink The decision is a crucial one that requires objective, extension and will benefit from Northern Hub thorough and evidence-based analysis of our connectivity improvements. Gatwick station is getting a major upgrade; needs and how best to meet them in a sustainable way. Thameslink will benefit Gatwick and Luton; Luton is We do not want to make the mistake that the previous getting improved access from the M1; and tunnelling Government made of coming up with the wrong solution has started on Crossrail. That project will ultimately see and seeking to reverse-engineer the evidence. Put simply, Heathrow connected to the City and Canary Wharf by that landed them in court and ensured that they failed train directly for the first time. to deliver any new capacity. We need to get this right. In the longer term, High Speed 2 will provide greatly We need to base our decisions on the evidence, and on a improved surface access to Heathrow and Birmingham. process that allows the communities affected by any of As my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley the options fully to take part and ensure that their voice (Nigel Mills) mentioned, that is a real game-changer, is heard. bringing Birmingham within easy travelling distance of many more people across the country. Of course, our Zac Goldsmith: Can my right hon. Friend tell us what HS2 plans will also provide an attractive rail alternative work her Department has done on considering the to thousands of short-haul flights coming into our viability of maintaining two hubs rather than one? We south-east airports. That will potentially free up even have today heard a lot of statements from Members, more space for the long-haul destinations that hon. but no evidence at all, that we must have a single hub. Members have rightly identified as crucial to our economic Has her Department looked at that question, and are success. there any data she can share with us? However, good government is about not only tackling the problems of today, but preparing for the future. Mrs Villiers: Certainly the debate that will be triggered That is why the Chancellor announced in last year’s by our call for evidence will look at a range of options, autumn statement that we would explore the options including how a hub can interact with highly successful for maintaining the UK’s aviation hub status, with the point-to-point airports, and will consider connections exception of a third runway at Heathrow. The coalition between our airports to see if they can provide a way to is clear that it does not support a third runway at improve and enhance our connectivity. Those are the Heathrow. The airport is unique in Europe, in terms of sorts of ideas we have already been looking at, because the magnitude of its noise impact on densely populated they were proposed in response to our scoping document, areas. Thousands live daily with a plane overhead every and they will provide an important basis for future 90 seconds, and have more planes that wake them up at debate over the next few months on how we maintain 4.30 in the morning. The quality-of-life impact of a London’s and the UK’s top-class connectivity. third runway and up to 220,000 more flights over London every year would be massive, and there is no technological John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Will solution in sight to ensure that planes become quiet the Minister give way? 275WH Aviation 4 JULY 2012 276WH

Mrs Villiers: I am afraid that I am about to run out of Voluntary Sector time, so unfortunately not. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood 11 am raised a number of issues about the potential for a new airport—issues relating to cost, airspace management Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): It is a pleasure and impact on the local environment. It is, of course, to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. I thank vital to consider the sorts of questions he raises about the Minister for coming, and I am pleased that some costs and local environmental impact whatever options hon. Members are here today to celebrate the voluntary are put forward as a result of our call for evidence. sector in small towns and cities. I know that my hon. Those are important questions to ask, and important Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) is criteria against which to judge any of the potential ways keen to speak, and that my hon. Friend the Member for to address the future connectivity needs of the south-east Lincoln (Karl McCartney) is keen to intervene. I am airports. On air passenger duty, as hon. Members will happy for both to do so. be aware, taxation is a matter for the Chancellor. Everyone here today recognises the important To conclude, we are taking forward a range of measures contribution in our areas that the voluntary sector right now to improve our airports and ensure that they makes to many families and to our local economies. The are top-class international gateways to the rest of the voluntary sector receives and spends tens of billions of world, and we are carrying out the process needed to pounds every year and employs hundreds of thousands determine our future connectivity needs. We believe our of people who are all trying to make a difference to the approach represents a responsible, structured and proper life of other people. process that takes us towards delivering a sustainable Before I raise two points with the Minister, I would solution that will maintain the UK’s connectivity and like to celebrate the work of the 163 charities and more competitiveness in the future. than 100 community groups in my constituency. Yes, that is right—in my constituency, with 69,000 people on the electoral roll, we have about 300 charities and local community groups all trying to make a difference. A classic example took place just this weekend, when Stevenage hosted the largest Armed Forces day celebration in Hertfordshire. The Stevenage indoor market traders, under the chairmanship of Peter Mason and its outstanding committee, welcomed the market stall that Mark Williams, a Gulf war veteran, runs for the national Gulf Veterans and families association. It not only raises funds, but tries to support servicemen and servicewomen who fought in the Gulf. There were more 20 charity stalls on the day, and thousands of people attended. I was honoured to be given the opportunity to speak at the opening of the day, and was humbled to meet a Dunkirk veteran who was collecting money in a bucket for the Royal British Legion. As a nurse, she had looked after wounded soldiers on the beaches at Dunkirk. I was very proud of what she had done, and it was an honour to meet her. There were many other stories from veterans and war widows. I was proud that our community came together to show our support for our armed forces. Turning to more established local charities in my constituency, I am proud to be a patron of Turn the Tide, a local charity that tries to help disadvantaged young people. We are trying to teach children, in groups of two, how to build a small sailing dinghy. Once they have built the dinghy, we then teach them how to sail it on Fairlands Valley Park sailing lake. We hope this will develop into a lifelong hobby for the children, and we are also looking into the possibility of giving them access to some qualifications. The charity is run by a good group of people. A number of people have come through the scheme so far in the past year or so, and it is proving to be a huge success. I am also a trustee of The Living Room in Stevenage, which is a charity founded and led by the inspirational Janis Feely, who now has an MBE for her services. The Living Room is a charity that helps people put their lives back together and makes a massive contribution to the local community. It simply tries to break the cycle of addiction and uses abstinence-based group therapy to 277WH Voluntary Sector4 JULY 2012 Voluntary Sector 278WH help addicts recover, whether from drugs, alcohol, food week and may have seen a particular vehicle or something or other addictions. The programme at The Living else. Dog Watch is led by a lady called Sarah Sheldrick, Room in Stevenage works. It has a high success rate and she is also an inspiration. because of a very unique selling point—all the counsellors Young people are very important in charities. Only have been addicts in the past. They have all reached last week, I visited Thomas Alleyne school in Stevenage, rock bottom and they all know what it is like to be there. where the pupils presented me with a petition that I They know when the people they are counselling are hope to give to the Secretary of State for International pushing a little bit further than they should, and when Development. They want all children throughout the they are not going fast enough. It is a unique charity world to have access to primary school education. You and I am delighted to have been involved with it for a know, Mr Dobbin, that I am very interested in global number of years. poverty and what is going on around the world, especially in relation to access to education. The pupils of Thomas Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): I congratulate my Alleyne school have gone a step further and raised hon. Friend on securing the debate. It is also a pleasure enough money to send three African children to school to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. for the next year. The pupils are making a personal My hon. Friend mentioned being a trustee of various demonstration to those children in Africa that they will charities in his constituency. He also mentioned how try to help them get educated. That is very important, many charities there were in his constituency. There are because it shows that in my constituency of Stevenage 270 charities and voluntary sector organisations in Lincoln. people are becoming involved with community spirit With the help of two companies, Lindum Group and right from the start. Wright Vigar, we have a number of receptions coming A slightly larger charity based in Stevenage is POhWER, up to thank the trustees of those charities. With 270 charities which provides highly skilled advocates to support and voluntary organisations, the number of trustees in vulnerable people who find it difficult to challenge the my constituency numbers in the thousands. I am sure NHS and other services when things go wrong, and to that my hon. Friend would like to welcome that. help people get the public services they need. I work very closely with POhWER and am a huge fan of the Stephen McPartland: The importance of trustees to support it gives to people. It understands the challenges, charities is massive. The Minister will be aware that one as most of the board of trustees have used advocacy of the biggest challenges for charities is to attract good- services themselves in the past. The Minister with quality trustees. It is like being a school governor—they responsibility for care services has written to POhWER are overwhelmed with paperwork and given a huge to thank it for the work it does, particularly with those amount of responsibility. Like most people involved in who have mental health issues. POhWER is also a charities, all they want to do is help people. I am success, because it is one of the few charities that has delighted to hear that my hon. Friend is welcoming all managed to win some Government contracts to provide the trustees in his constituency. It has given me a very advocacy services. That brings me to my first question good idea, and I will no doubt be doing something to the Minister. Why is it so difficult for charities and similar later this year. community groups to win contracts from the public sector? Returning to the work of The Living Room, the charity is very good at putting people’s lives back together. The Minister is keen for local councils, local NHS, It has helped mothers recover to the point where they police and various public sector bodies to work more have been able to get their children back out of care. It closely with local charities and community groups, and has helped to rebuild marriages, and it has helped many many do, but that never seems to translate into a clients, as we call them, to go back to the world of work contract in my area. The tendering processes of local and put their lives back together. It is a fantastic public bodies are bewildering. Most charities just want organisation, and I am very proud to be associated to get on with helping local people and cannot navigate with it. the complex bureaucracy that is put in their way. Another charity that was started in Stevenage is I met a couple of people last week who are keen to unique, and I love it. It is run in partnership with launch a self-empowerment service in Stevenage, but Hertfordshire police and has expanded across the county, they are coming up against huge barriers and do not and I understand that a number of other police forces think that they can deal with the tendering process. are interested in it. It is called Dog Watch. Everybody They believe—I have heard this complaint from many has heard of neighbourhood watch, but we have a small local charities—that many of the contracts are system called Dog Watch. Dog walkers are often the too large and say that, when they can get involved in a ones who identify fly-tippers. It is usually a dog walker contract, they effectively have to subcontract to a larger who is unfortunate enough to discover a dead body, charity or a private sector organisation, and feel that because their dog finds it. More than 400 people have they do not get what was promised. I am also starting to signed up with Hertfordshire police through the Dog hear complaints that charities are being used as a form Watch charity, and they are effectively the eyes and ears of bid candy; that is, they are being used by large on the ground in Stevenage. There are many community providers to win a contract, but see little benefit locally. events, and the whole community gets involved. Dog That issue has arisen time and again in my constituency, Watch helps rescued dogs and looks after a number of especially in the past 18 months, as ever more contracts animals. Most importantly, people are out there with of this kind have gone out. the police on a day-to-day basis. If something happens We need to level the playing field and have services and the police are keen to find out what is going on, delivered more locally, but how does the Minister intend they have access to a resource of people who have to do that? The Government’s localism agenda works; it probably walked past the very spot three times that is the right thing to do. We have to push power away 279WH Voluntary Sector4 JULY 2012 Voluntary Sector 280WH

[Stephen McPartland] (Stephen McPartland) on securing the debate, which is relevant to small towns and to cities, such as my constituency from central Government towards local people and of Carlisle. I should like to make a small contribution to communities. However, many local councils seem to be the debate. acting as a barrier between the Government and local communities. Councils pay lip service to the Government, The Government and politicians talk a lot about the but do little to help local community groups and small role and importance of the public and private sectors, charities tender for contracts. It is almost as if they and the relationship between the two. That is natural, to want to keep as much work as possible in-house. In my a large extent, because the private sector is the wealth- constituency, Stevenage borough council keeps everything producing part of our economy and creates the vast in-house and does not outsource anything, so it is majority of our employment. It is dynamic, innovative difficult for small groups and charities to be involved in and varied and vital to the success of our economy, any way. nationally and locally. The public sector is similarly important. It provides our schools, hospitals, much of Will the Minister consider introducing to councils our infrastructure, the police and welfare and is important more standardised bidding and monitoring forms that both nationally and locally. There is often political pass the plain English test? We are giving councils debate about the size of each sector and what each guidance and working hard—the Minister is desperate should do and how they should do it. for them to engage with local community groups—but in my experience in the past two years, there is a barrier Sometimes, we neglect the third sector—the voluntary between the Government and local communities, which and charitable sector—which is equally important in means that community groups cannot navigate bureaucracy small towns and in cities, as it makes a valuable contribution and red tape. Those groups want to help people, just as to communities in many ways. It plays a huge role, small businesses want to get on and sell their product sometimes doing things that neither the private nor and not deal with health and safety and myriad other public sectors can or will do. It is important in terms of regulations. Many small charities and community groups its contribution to society and to local communities, are subject to the same regulations as businesses and are and in respect of how it helps people to get involved. not geared up to work with them. In 2009-10, 40% of adult volunteers formally volunteered It would be remiss of me not to mention the issue of once a year and 25% at least once a month. In my view, irrecoverable VAT, which costs local charities and much of the voluntary sector flies below the radar: that community groups up to £500 million a year. This is a is true of my constituency. Throughout the country, long-standing issue, but it is important that we try to about 80% of voluntary organisations are not registered tackle it. and there are an estimated 600,000 informal groups, Many people in my constituency come to me about many of which have annual incomes of less than £10,000; Criminal Records Bureau forms. One man has had yet they play a vital, important role in our communities, 15 CRB forms for the different groups that he is involved especially in small towns and cities. in. We put the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 into place and we are getting rid of unnecessary bureaucracy The voluntary sector is diverse. In my constituency, to do with CRB forms, and I know that the idea is that, for example, Friends of the Settle-Carlisle Line is a if there has been no change in people’s circumstances, heritage trust that plays an important role in publicising they will be able to log on to the internet, check the the importance of that railway. A recently created charity system and move forward. However, it is two years on called Cumbria Gateway helps people with drug issues and that measure does not seem to have been implemented move back into mainstream society. Cumbria Council yet, and nobody knows when it will be implemented. for Voluntary Service helps voluntary groups generally People are agitated, saying, “Do I need to get my new with administration and encourages more people to get CRB forms, because I’m going to be helping out?” The involved in the third sector. CRB forms are a huge barrier to people being involved It is important that we recognise the benefits of a in community groups. thriving third sector, but it should be an independent The Government have made it clear that volunteers sector that is not dependent on the state and it should should not have to pay for CRB forms. However, most not be over-regulated. What will the Government do to councils are, in my experience, charging an administration ensure that the sector continues to thrive, develop and fee to process the forms, so the reality is that most expand? I want to be able to reassure organisations in volunteers are being charged for a CRB form, and that my constituency that the Government support them. I cost is borne by the individual or the charity. There is a should like the Minister to confirm that there are no sense of a barrier between what we want to achieve and proposals for additional regulation in the sector. what local communities want and what is happening. We need to leap across the barrier and deliver this free Although I appreciate that funding has been reduced, service to volunteers. can smaller organisations in particular be provided with help to gain access to the funding that is out there? I would have loved to mention every one of the 300 Often, small organisations struggle to find out where to charities and community groups in Stevenage, but no get access to such finance, and even to find out where it doubt we can do that in an hour-and-a-half debate in is advertised and in which organisations or parts of future. government they have to seek it. 11.14 am John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): It is a delight Stephen McPartland: Does my hon. Friend agree that to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. I small charities often find it difficult to apply for funding congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage because they do not have the resources? 281WH Voluntary Sector4 JULY 2012 Voluntary Sector 282WH

John Stevenson: Yes. Indeed, sometimes they do not My hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage mentioned even know where to go to seek such support. I also CRB checks, which have been a huge source of frustration. support my hon. Friend’s comment about the third We are certainly not going as fast as many people would sector having access to public sector contracts. It is like, but the reform is radical; millions fewer people will important that small organisations have that opportunity, need to have CRB checks, and those who do will find it too, and that it is not just national charities that have much easier to carry the check around the system. The priority in that regard. reform, which my colleagues at the Home Office are The voluntary sector has an important role to play in working hard on, is complicated, but the new system our society—in changing the way we do things—and I will be in place at the beginning of next year. It will be a seek reassurance that the Government will give as much new era for CRB checks, with an injection of common support as they can to it. sense in a system that had grown out of all proportion. That is only one example of the kind of things that we are doing to make life a bit easier. 11.18 am Mention was made of how small charities can find access to what money is around. Information is important, The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick so we have continued to fund a website called Funding Hurd): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Central, which I recommend to colleagues. It is probably Mr Dobbin. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member the most comprehensive source of grants and pots of for Stevenage (Stephen McPartland) on securing the money available. debate and for the sincere way in which he expressed his admiration and respect for the 300-odd local charities My hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Karl in Stevenage. He clearly does more than talk the talk: he McCartney) talked, importantly, about the value of walks the walk by being a patron and trustee of at least trustees, which we are keen to encourage. The environment two of those organisations, which is admirable. is challenging for charities, and most of them recognise that they lack certain things, such as business skills in My hon. Friend and other colleagues are reflecting particular, which will become increasingly relevant if the importance of the sector to the country in a year they are competing for more tenders and public work. when we are presenting to the world the best of Britain, There are business skills in every constituency, but they and I have absolutely no doubt that the voluntary sector happen to be engaged in different things. The impression is part of that. The ecosystem of charities, supported by I get in my constituency is that if we can make better millions of people who give time and money to improve connections between local businesses and local people other people’s lives and the conditions in their with business skills and the charities that are on their neighbourhood, underpins our sense of well-being; it is doorstep, the effect can be transformational; it can raise massively important. the capacity and capability of small local charities. We My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John will be doing a lot to make those connections work Stevenson) spoke well about organisations in his area. I much better. Furthermore, some of those business people vividly remember visiting the Living Well Trust on the will be inspired to become trustees and become part of Raffles estate when I first became a Member of Parliament. the governance of local charities. What was really brought home to me was that on a Making it easier to run a charity, therefore, and troubled estate the thing that made a difference—the helping the sector to modernise its skills is important. people who made a difference—were Barrie, Kath and Behind most front-line charities, of course, sits a local the team there. They did much more than anything a council for voluntary service, or another support council could do to support residents from the estate. organisation, and we have invested £30 million in the The Living Well Trust was the battery at the heart of the CVS network to encourage the councils to think about estate, and that forged a strong impression in my mind. how they can improve their offer to front-line charities. Times are challenging for such organisations: less That is a serious investment when there is not a great money is around, there are more demands and there is a deal of money around. Making it easier to run a charity huge amount of change. We are sensitive to that. In the is the first important strategic strand. short time I have, I shall reassure colleagues that the Secondly, how do we get more money into the sector? Government are extremely committed to protecting How do we get more resource in terms of more volunteers the sector as best we can through a difficult short term, and people giving their time? I recommend to colleagues while putting in place measures that will underpin its the White Paper on giving and the update we published resilience and effectiveness in the future. I will address last week for dissemination to local charities, because in specifically how we can make it easier for charities to those documents we communicate clearly our absolute access money and to help us deliver better public services. commitment to broaden the base of people in this First, we are trying to make it easier to run a charity. country who give. We all know that it is one of the most difficult things to I shall throw a spotlight on a couple of initiatives do; it has always been difficult, but it is particularly where we are putting up taxpayers’ money as a match to hard now. The Government can do things to help, such stimulate giving to local charities. Localgiving.com is a as looking hard at the amount of bureaucracy and new platform set up by one of the participants in “The regulation imposed—my hon. Friend the Member for Secret Millionaire” to inspire more support for local Carlisle made that point—and we are undergoing probably charities. In September, we will be matching, pound for the biggest and most comprehensive review of the regulation pound, local donations given through that site. It will be and legislation that affects the sector. Our instinct is to our third match. The previous one sold out in 24 hours, deregulate and to remove bureaucracy, so that there are which tells us that if people are given information about fewer forms to fill and fewer daft questions to answer, the local charities on their doorstep, they are interested freeing time and money that can be better spent. in doing more to support them. I encourage colleagues 283WH Voluntary Sector4 JULY 2012 Voluntary Sector 284WH

[Mr Nick Hurd] going through this summer. That is about encouraging more intelligent commissioning, in particular at local to get their local charities to register and get engaged level. with Localgiving.com, for the pound-for-pound match We are supporting local charities that want to do in September. more in that space. A £10 million investment and contract We have also put up £50 million to match donations readiness fund has been set up as a source of grants from local philanthropists—people who have been relatively available to charities and social enterprises that want to fortunate and want to put something back into their do more public service delivery but recognise that they communities. We will match every £1 they give with an need a little more help and support to increase their additional 50p towards the building of local endowments capability and readiness. The principle is clear, however: that will be a source of sustainable, long-term grants for we want the people buying on our behalf to have much local organisations. We are determined on such interventions more choice in who they buy from. for the long term, so getting more resources into the In some of the most stubborn and difficult social sector is hugely important to us. areas, charities and social enterprises frequently make Thirdly—a relatively new area—how do we make it the extra bit of difference in keeping people out of jail easier for charities to participate in and help us to or off drugs, as has been said, but such organisations deliver better public services? Part of the problem is are often small. One of the challenges mentioned is a that the public services in the past have been closed and real one; commissioners naturally want to buy at scale, opportunities have not been available. The Government with all the potential efficiencies that can be pursued, are opening up opportunities, but it is a big cultural but they find it difficult to reconcile that with including change and will not happen overnight. Big question small, local charities that could make that additional bit marks are raised about the capability and competence of difference in the supply chain. of commissioners throughout the country—many are We are feeling our way, but there is definite progress. new and many are being asked to do things in different This morning, I had a meeting with the National Council ways—and of local charities, which need to step up and for Voluntary Organisations and Serco, which have persuade commissioners that they have the resilience come together with a new framework to guide prime and ability to deliver. contractors—big private organisations or big charities—in We are working hard to make that a reality. We are their engagement with small charities in their supply sending strong signals to commissioners. We supported chain. In an environment where we are paying people the private Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Friend for outcomes, it is in the interests of bigger organisations the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White), to engage with the small local charities that, in our which places a requirement on commissioners to consider experience, can make just that additional bit of difference. social value in their commissioning processes. The “Best Finally, if my hon. Friend the Member for Stevenage Value Statutory Guidance” issued by the Secretary of wants to bring any of the 300 magnificent charities in State for Communities and Local Government to local his constituency to meet the Minister, he is extremely authorities also makes it clear that we want them to welcome to do so, because I regularly have such meetings. consider social value. The Localism Act 2011 contains a I would like them to feel the appreciation of the Government right to challenge, so that local groups can question for the incredible work that they do. existing provision in a public and transparent way. We are setting up a commissioning academy, because 11.29 am commissioners need support, and the first cohort is Sitting suspended. 285WH 4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 286WH

West Bank (Area C) the rate of population growth is much higher than in any other part of the country, with an increase of 4.75% per year. 2.30 pm The Israeli Government not only condone illegal development but encourage it, providing incentives, Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab): I am grateful subsidies and funding for housing, education and for the opportunity to speak on the important issue of infrastructure, including special roads and water Area C in Palestine. Following the Oslo agreement in connections. According to a Peace Now report from 1995, the occupied Palestinian territories were divided 2006, 40% of the land—or 3,400 buildings—on which into three areas: Area A, about 18% of the west bank, settlements have been built in Area C is privately owned contains most of the main Palestinian settlements and by Palestinians. is under full Palestinian civil and security control; Area B, roughly 22% of the west bank, is under Palestinian civil Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Is the hon. control and Israeli security control; and Area C, on Gentleman aware that, at most, about 5% of the west which I want to concentrate, makes up the other 60% of bank consists of settlements, and most of them are in the west bank and is under complete Israeli civil and settlement blocks? Does he not accept that the vast security control. majority of the settlements are along the peace line and The Oslo agreement as concerned with the west bank that, to get to peace, land swaps will be required? Most was intended to be interim and to last for only five of those settlements are more than likely to come into years. The lands should have been handed over gradually Israel anyway. to Palestinian control, but that has never happened. Mr Doran: That does not alter the facts on the Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): I ground. Owing to the road networks, the various apologise to my hon. Friend for the fact that I cannot infrastructure around the settlements and the inability stay for the whole debate. Does he agree that Area C of Palestinians to go into that territory without a permit would, and does, make up the backbone of any future from the Israeli authorities, 40% of the land is effectively Palestinian state? The failure of the Oslo process to taken up by the settlements. follow its proper track therefore jeopardises the whole future of the two-state solution. Will he ask for the Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): Minister’s views on that? I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. I, too, have recently returned from a visit to the region. Someone remarked that because of Mr Doran: I thank the right hon. Lady for her the Israeli settlements the whole of Area C looks similar intervention—I always thank the right hon. Lady, and I to a Swiss cheese, which is a very good description. That always give way to her. The Minister has heard her lack of a contiguous, sustainable two-state solution in question, and I am sure that he will respond. Of course, the area is making peace very difficult to achieve. I agree that the solution, if there is one, to the problems of Area C is crucial to the whole settlement of a particularly difficult issue. Mr Doran: I agree with the hon. Lady. There are less light words than Swiss cheese for what is happening; it Israel, as an occupying state, has clear and unambiguous is very serious and damaging to any potential solution. responsibilities to the Palestinian people in Area C, She is absolutely right. including for the safety and welfare of civilians living in the occupied territory. It has no sovereignty over Area C Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I refer the or any other part of the west bank. I want to concentrate Chamber to my declaration in the Register of Members’ on Area C and the way in which the Israeli authorities Financial Interests. have met their obligations under international law. I take the issue of settlements seriously, but listening In May this year, I had the opportunity to visit closely to the hon. Gentleman, I simply cannot understand Palestine for the first time, on a trip with some colleagues his repeated reference to settlements taking up 40% of organised by the Britain-Palestine all-party parliamentary the west bank. I have the United Nations “Humanitarian group and CAABU, the Council for the Advancement Atlas”, and there is simply no way that the Israeli of Arab-British Understanding. One of the first things settlements amount to anywhere near 40% of the west I noticed travelling through the west bank, as a newcomer, bank. May I ask him to ensure that he is quoting a is the enormous amount of new development. The hills correct figure? are full of new housing complexes, but in Area C those developments do not belong to the indigenous Mr Doran: I stand by the figure. I am not suggesting population—they have all been developed by the occupying that 40% is built on; that is not the issue. I am talking force, Israel, and are therefore illegal. The scale is about the area of land that is restricted with regard to staggering. Palestinians. It includes the road network. The Swiss According to the Israeli human rights organisation cheese effect was mentioned by the hon. Member for B’Tselem, there are 124 formally recognised settlements Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant). There are large in the west bank, not including East Jerusalem, and areas to which the Palestinian community is denied about 100 informal settlements—outposts—that are illegal access. That calculation is made, as I said, in a 2006 under Israeli law. As a result of the restricted road report by an Israeli human rights organisation. I want network—restricted for Palestinians, at least—the to make progress now, because the hon. Member for settlements dominate more than 40% of the west bank. Kettering (Mr Hollobone) will have his opportunity to There are 310,000 settlers now living in Area C, where speak later. 287WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 288WH

[Mr Doran] has made any representations to the Israeli Government on this matter? It would also be helpful if he would On my visit to the west bank, I saw numerous examples identify any projects funded by the Department for of how the Israeli civil Administration restrict any kind International Development that have suffered the same of development by Palestinians. Around 70% of Area fate. C, or 44% of the west bank, is effectively off limits to In addition to the demolition of Palestinian structures, Palestinian construction—the hon. Member for Kettering there is the issue of the natural resources of the occupied made me nervous of getting into such statistics, but I territories, which have for decades been diverted for the have to stick by them—and is designated for exclusive use of Israel and Israeli citizens. International law, of use by Israeli settlements and the Israeli military, or is course, requires the natural resources of the occupied taken up by nature reserves or the barrier buffer zone. territories to be used for the benefit of the local population, In the remaining 30% of Area C, a range of restrictions except when they are required for an urgent military makes it virtually impossible for Palestinians to be purpose. The most crucial natural resource on the west granted permission for development. bank is water, and 80% of the water extracted from the The most frequent obstacle to Palestinian development west bank mountain aquifer goes to Israel, with only is the requirement on the applicant to prove that he or 20% going to the Palestinians. she owns or has the right to use the land, but most land Settlers consume between six and 10 times more per in the west bank is not registered, so the owners must go head than their Palestinian counterparts. Many settlers through a complex system involving tax and inheritance have swimming pools and are able to irrigate their documents. The second ground for the rejection of farmland. By contrast, 190,000 Palestinians live in most Palestinian permit applications is the requirement 134 villages without running water. Palestinian consumption that the proposed building must be in conformity with in the occupied territories is about 70 litres per day, well an approved planning scheme that is detailed enough to below the 100 litres recommended by the World Health enable building permits to be used. Palestinian villages, Organisation. In some rural communities, people survive however, lack sufficiently detailed plans. The outdated on 20 litres per day, and many Palestinians are forced to plans that do exist are interpreted restrictively by the buy water of dubious quality from mobile water tanks Israeli civil authority. In practice, only about 1% of at high prices. Wells and systems built without permits Area C is available for the construction of new properties, are frequently destroyed by the Israeli army. and most of that is already built up. Demolition orders are in place, and actual demolition has occurred, all over Area C. On a recent trip, we Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I congratulate visited two Bedouin communities. The first was Kahn my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. al-Ahmar. The residents are a Bedouin community who Does he share my concern that among the buildings are refugees from the Negev. The area in which they live demolished are structures funded by the European Union, could not be described as remote. They live cheek by such as schools? I visited the occupied territories in the jowl with a main highway, and there is a substantial west bank a year ago, as part of a delegation, and saw a settlement on the other side of the road. However, the school that had been built with funding from an Italian actions of the ICA have led to the community being charity, but that had been subject to a demolition isolated in practical terms. notice. The residents recognised that one of the costs of that isolation was the impact on their children’s schooling, Mr Doran: We were obviously on the same visit, and they decided to build a school. They obtained because I will mention that particular project later. funding support from an Italian non-governmental Under the restrictive laws and regulations, many Palestinian organisation, and were given help with design and structures, including homes, schools, water systems and materials. They managed to build a school, and the farming infrastructure, are treated as illegal and are main material was used tyres—it is a fascinating building— therefore subject to demolition orders. covered in mud or some form of mortar, but it is well In 2011, nearly 1,100 Palestinians, half of them children, insulated and cool, and it suits the children very well in were displaced through 222 house demolitions—an 80% their environment. The children are being supplied with increase on the number of people displaced in 2010—and an education in good surroundings. However, the Bedouins 4,200 people were affected by the destruction of structures there did not have permission to build the school, and necessary to their livelihoods, such as water storage and since its construction it has been under constant threat agricultural facilities. In total, 622 Palestinian structures of demolition. were destroyed, including mosques and classrooms. At The families living there have been targeted on two the end of 2011, there were more than 3,000 outstanding fronts. First, the ICA wants to demolish the school, and demolition orders. Those figures included 18 schools. there is no permit. That is the law. That will deprive the So far this year, 371 Palestinian structures have been children of their education. The second threat, which demolished on the west bank, 124 of which were homes, has been made to all the Bedouin groups in the area, is and 600 people have been displaced so far this year. to move them to another site. The proposed site is next That is a significant and troubling increase in the weekly to a rubbish dump that services the settlement up the average, from 21 people a week displaced in 2011, to hill. Everything that will involve, and the risk to health 24 a week this year. Of the structures demolished since for all those who are moved to the site, is anathema to the start of 2000—this relates to the point made by my the community involved. We spoke to a community hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. leader, Abu Khamis, who said: Morris)—60 were EU-funded structures, and 110 are at “They are saying they are moving us to a rubbish dump, if we risk of demolition. Will the Minister tell us the total move out of this community it should be to return to the home of cost of those demolished EU projects, and whether he our tribe in the Negev.” 289WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 290WH

He continued: and the court asked the ICA not to carry out the “Whether the rubbish dump or the French Riviera we don’t demolition. The case is winding its way through the want to go”. court processes, but in the meantime the Kurshan Bedouin That Bedouin community lives where it does because community remains in its new homes, but under constant there was a river and natural wells, but they were threat of displacement. diverted to serve the local settlements on the other side of the road, and the land used for grazing the Bedouins’ Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): On the illegal sheep has been severely restricted. We were told about demolition of infrastructure that has been built with the harassment by nearby settlers. Abu Khamis told us British, UK, EU or international money, is it not time that his wife had been beaten by settlers while on the to move beyond the ritual criticism and condemnation hillside with their sheep. On the day we visited, a group that we always make of the Israeli authorities, and sue of settlers had entered the community, and had taken them for damages? They are recklessly wasting and photographs of the children and structures to intimidate destroying our taxpayers’ money, and our taxpayers the residents. deserve that money back from the Israeli Government. As well as settler intimidation, and the constant threats to demolish the school and of possible removal Mr Doran: My right hon. Friend makes an excellent to the rubbish dump site, there is further institutional point, and I hope that the Minister has taken note of it. harassment. For example, the access route to the village It raises another issue, because my understanding of from the main road that the villagers used to use was how international law operates is that the Israeli authorities sealed off by the authorities, and the only access to the have responsibilities to the Palestinian communities village by vehicle now is along an extremely rough river that are being met by our country, the EU, and non- bed track. The authorities have built a sewage air vent governmental organisations around the world, saving 5 metres from the classroom, and that obviously affects Israel that expense. There is a serious issue that needs to the air that the children breathe in the school. My hon. be considered. Friend the Member for Easington visited the same site and he will recall how difficult the drive to the village Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): The hon. was, but those people have to put up with that every Gentleman is generous in giving way again. He makes day, and it is much worse for them because they are the point that the Israeli authorities have responsibilities; cheek by jowl with a major road. does he also agree that it is in their interest to have a Despite all that, Abu Khamis and his community are better-educated and better-off Palestinian population adamant that they will not be intimidated or moved that is able to feed itself? That is in the interests of a from their home. Their most earnest wish is to return to two-state solution and long-term peace. their tribal home in the Negev, but that is not possible now. It is difficult to interpret the behaviour and actions Mr Doran: This is the politics of the mad house. We of the Israeli authorities as anything other than intimidation have a very suppressed Palestinian population, and one of the worst kind. They hope that the constant threat day the kettle will explode. There is no question about from the authorities, and their mean and insidious that; it is just a question of when. actions, such as cutting off access, will grind the community down. I started by mentioning the responsibilities of the Israeli authorities as the occupying force in Area C. It is The community at Kahn al-Ahmar has in some respects clear that the Israeli Government are ignoring their become a symbol of the way in which the Israeli authority responsibilities under international law, and I have raised treats the Palestinian communities. There has been a few points about that in this short debate. There is a considerable media interest in the school project, and it virtual free-for-all, with new housing developments for is a tribute to Abu Khamis and his community that they settlers actively encouraged and supported financially have continued to resist all efforts to intimidate them by the Israeli Government. That development has taken from their home, but how long can that go on? place regardless of the rights of the true owners of the On the same day, we visited the Kurshan community, land. Resources, particularly water, have been channelled who also live nearby in the Khan al-Ahmar area. An to the illegal settlers, but restricted or denied to the international non-governmental organisation has funded Palestinians, who have been denied all the rights given a new home for each of the eight families in the community, to illegal settlers. but within a week of completion 24-hour eviction notices were served. On the day we visited, the community had As the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald been told that an appeal against the orders had been said, we have a Swiss cheese approach. It is almost like refused, and that their homes would be demolished the the creation of bantustans; the communities will be next afternoon. We were told that just an hour before separated out and surrounded by Israeli settlements, or came an ICA representative had visited and told the roads that Palestinians cannot access. That appears to families that they would be relocated to the rubbish be a deliberate strategy by Israeli authorities to isolate dump area—presumably the same rubbish dump area Palestinian communities in Area C. where the other sect of the tribe was to be moved to. We in this Chamber are all politicians, and we know A member of the community, Abu Faris, said that he that the only solution to this problem is political. On had told the ICA representative where the two sides stand—I was aware of this in this “that’s a rubbish dump and I am a human being. In any country a country, but it was underlined for me in my short time human being should not live near a rubbish dump and I have a in Palestine—the Palestinian Authority are frustrated right to be a human being just like you have”. and feel that they cannot go any further. They have He told us that they intended to carry on finishing the done an excellent job in managing, looking after and inside of the new building. I understand that the following ensuring security in the areas that they control, but they day an injunction was obtained for the Kurshan community, are frustrated that they cannot make any progress during 291WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 292WH

[Mr Doran] including the 200,000 who live in East Jerusalem, which is separate. That area is under full Israeli security and talks. Whatever plans the Israeli authorities have in civil control. It also has Israeli-controlled water, planning mind for the long term, settlement of this problem does and administration. not seem to be one of them. As the hon. Gentleman said, the Oslo agreement was When we met the Israeli authorities, it was clear that meant to be an interim measure, although it seems to be a number of things were on their mind. Iran was top of becoming the status quo. Internationally, Israel does the list, and next was the Arab spring and the impact not have sovereignty in Area C, or indeed the west that that will have on their plans. There were also bank—it does not. Therefore, under international law, concerns about what a second Obama presidency might Israel is the occupying power in that land, and it most mean to the state of Israel. definitely has responsibility for the people who live We will reach a resolution only if we find a political there. solution, and it does not seem to me that either side is capable of working towards that. It is, therefore, a Grahame M. Morris: The hon. Gentleman is making question for us. I know the excellent work that the some excellent points. Does he agree that although Minister has done in this area, and his praises were sung under the terms of the Oslo agreement the Israeli virtually everywhere we went. I say that to him as an old authorities have responsibility for planning, water and football colleague; I know him and his integrity on security measures in Area C, that was an interim measure? these issues well. A simple fact, however, is that the The plan was for responsibility to be transferred to the people whom we and others in the debate met in Palestine, Palestinian Authority over time, but that does not seem including those who live in Khan al-Ahmar, deserve a to be happening. better life. It is our job to help them find it. Bob Stewart: Yes, I accept what the hon. Gentleman 2.53 pm says about that. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I start by congratulating Area C is, of course, the key to sorting out the the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran). I problem because it makes up the majority of the west am speaking loudly because I understand that the bank. The right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford sound system is not very good and people cannot hear. (Dame Joan Ruddock), who is no longer in the Chamber, I apologise if I am shouting like a sergeant-major, but I has already made that point. hope people can hear me. I spent my boyhood in Amman; my father was an Mr Hollobone: Can we please get the facts right? officer with Glubb Pasha. I loved Amman and I remember According to the United Nations, Area C is 39% of the visiting Jerusalem. I even spoke a bit of Arabic. In 1967, west bank. That is not the same as the area covered by when I was doing my A-levels, I watched the war in June settlements. I am afraid that my hon. Friend is not with horror. My dad despaired. He just put his head in correct to say that Area C makes up the majority of the his hands and said, “What will happen now?” west bank. According to the UN, it is 39%. I recognise I remember Security Council resolution 242 being that it is a big area, but let us get our facts and figures passed. It said that Israel should go back to the pre-1967 correct to better inform the debate. boundaries, and that the security of Israel should be guaranteed internationally. In 45 years, that has not Bob Stewart: I hope my hon. Friend will forgive me, been achieved—[Interruption.] Oh—the sound is back but when I look at the map he is holding up, it looks to on; I shall calm down. me more like 60% blue. But let us not get into an Israel has only to lose a war once, so I understand argument; whether the area is 40% or 60%, something is why it is dominated by thoughts of its own security. It is wrong. surrounded by people and some states that wish nothing There are, as we have mentioned in the debate, about more than its demise. Iran has declared that it wants to 310,000 Israeli settlers in Area C. There are 149 see Israel eliminated, and rockets are fired into Israel by settlements—okay, people might dispute that, but it is Hamas and associated terrorist groups that also carry more than 100—and there are about 100 outposts, out suicide bombings against innocent people. which are illegal under both international law and Israeli Jerusalem is a holy city for the world’s three great civil law. Already, it is said, about four of the settlements Aramaic religions. Jews, Arabs and other peoples have could rightly be called cities. That is quite big. Under always lived in Jerusalem together, almost since history international law, all settlements are illegal and outposts began, and in a way it is the world’s first international are most definitely illegal. city. However, I want to talk specifically about the west Two kinds of people live in Area C. There are Israelis, bank, particularly Area C. who are subject to Israeli civil law, loosely—as I understand The hon. Member for Aberdeen North has already it—because they sometimes do not pay much attention explained the meaning of the three areas, A, B and C, to the Israeli police. In fairness, they are sometimes, but if I may, I will amplify his comments to stress that apparently, in defiance of what Israeli police are trying Area A is the population centre for the Palestinians and to do. The other kind of people living there are Palestinians. contains mainly towns; Area B is controlled administratively They are subject to military law. That is wrong. When I by the Palestinians—although not for security which visited Area C, the difference was quite clear. Palestinians lies with the Israelis—and has more villages; Area C, cannot build where they live, except in a small percentage— as the hon. Gentleman said, occupies about 60% of the 1%, 2% or 3%—of the country; nor do they have west bank and includes about 310,000 settlers, not freedom of movement. They have to stay in their home 293WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 294WH area. For example, a Palestinian living in Area C with Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con) I recognise and relatives in East Jerusalem cannot easily go to visit accept that apportioning blame in this situation is not them. That is wrong. the right thing to do. We should be aiming to get people round the negotiating table, but does my hon. Friend Andrew Percy: Does my hon. Friend accept, on the not agree that during the 10-month period when the movement issue, that 100 roadblocks have been removed Israeli Government froze all settlement activity, there and movements between Israel and the west bank and was a failure by the Palestinians to get round the within the west bank have increased significantly? Who negotiating table and make progress? does he blame for the lack of progress on a negotiated peace settlement? Everyone knows that the 1967 line will not be the final settlement, so who does my hon. Bob Stewart: Yes, but there are circumstances as to Friend blame? Does he blame the Israelis or does he why that was the case. blame the Palestinian side? Andrew Percy rose— Bob Stewart: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. The answer to his question is that I do not blame either Bob Stewart: I give way to my hon. Friend, otherwise side. I have been involved in too many negotiations for he will give me hell later. the UN to start from a position of saying “You’re wrong” to one side or the other. The answer is: negotiate. There is wrong on both sides in this matter. Andrew Percy: Not at all, but I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Like other hon. Members in their Andrew Percy rose— contributions, he has hit on the nub of the situation, which is that we want to encourage economic development. Bob Stewart: I have given way once. You can keep That is probably the best way of going towards peace, quiet for the moment. but it is not the fact that continued Israeli frustration is Mr Robin Walker: I neglected earlier to refer to my harming the economy. The economy in the west bank entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Is is growing significantly. The number of work permits my hon. Friend aware of the work of organisations issued to citizens in the west bank to work in Israel has such as Breaking the Silence, which tries to show in increased, and the number of work permits issued to Israel the damage that the occupation is doing to Israelis? west bank residents to work in the settlements has also increased. Trade between the west bank and Israel has Bob Stewart: I thank my hon. Friend for that point, increased substantially year on year in the last few and I apologise if I seemed rude to my very good hon. years. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy). I do not mean to be rude. Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. I remind Members I am aware of the organisation Breaking the Silence. that a number of people still wish to speak, and the Perhaps someone else will bring it up. number who are able to do so is in your hands. The winding-up speeches will start promptly at 3.40 pm. Mr Bradshaw rose— Bob Stewart: Perhaps it will be my right hon. Friend, Bob Stewart: Thank you, Mrs Brooke. I will speed up although he is not meant to be. and allow fewer interventions. I am going to speed up and cut down, because I think that is fair. Mr Bradshaw: On this issue, I think I probably am. My experience as a United Nations commander informs Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a better description me of one essential truth, which everyone in this room than settlement, which is a fairly neutral, anodyne will fully understand without having been in my word, would be colony? These are illegal colonies. Does circumstances. Injustice will in the end cause such he agree that the description that he has just given of resentment that it will erupt. That happened in Ireland Area C, although it is not a complete parallel, is moving and it has happened in other places where I have been—it towards a situation that is comparable with apartheid will eventually burst. South Africa? I know that Israel has often been provoked mightily, Bob Stewart: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for but what is happening in Area C worries me. There is that point. I am trying to avoid using words such as continued expansion of settler communities in the west “apartheid” and “ghetto”. They are emotive terms. bank. That in a way signals to the Palestinians that “Colony” is just acceptable, but I am trying to avoid there is very little intention to stop it or to come to some using those terms, because, as I said to my hon. Friend sort of solution. Unless the settlements stop, there can the Member for Brigg and Goole, I am trying to avoid be no chance whatever of a two-state solution, and the putting blame on anyone. I am just trying to explain the only alternative to a two-state solution is a one-state situation. solution—one state where Jews and Palestinians recognise one another as equals. Surely that is not totally utopian. Mrs Grant: I understand why my hon. Friend resists Acceptance of human beings’ human rights is what the labelling, but does he accept that the terrible lack of United Nations is all about and what everyone in this freedom of movement is having a devastating effect on room feels strongly about, too. For its part, Hamas, in jobs, investment and economic growth for the entire Gaza, must somehow recognise the right of the state of region? Israel to exist. After all, Israel did withdraw from Gaza Bob Stewart: I thank my hon. Friend, who is most in 2005. definitely a very good friend. I agree. It is quite clear that that is one of the problems. Bob Blackman: What happened? 295WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 296WH

Bob Stewart: For doing so, its reward was often a rain Hebron hills, and is the agricultural centre of the of rockets. The whole situation seems somewhat intractable. region. It has been settled by the same families since In my experience, it is always the little people, the the 19th century. In that respect, it is similar to other ordinary people, who suffer in conflict situations. They villages around Jerusalem or in the Negev. I visited one simply want to live their lives as best they can. Whether of the villages and have seen villages in the Negev that they are Israeli or Palestinian, they are human beings. have been demolished five times by Israeli forces and Remedial action must come from leaders on all sides. then rebuilt. Just this week, B’Tselem, a well respected They must convince their people that it is necessary. human rights organisation, said about Susiya: I end by asking God to bring back King Solomon. “On Tuesday, 12 June 2012, Israel’s Civil Administration distributed He was respected by Jews and Muslims equally, and my demolition orders to…50— God, we need his wisdom now. that is essentially all— “structures in the Palestinian village of Susiya in the South Several hon. Members rose— Hebron Hills. The orders stated that they were renewals of demolition orders originally issued in the 1990s. Residents were given three Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. Members can days, until 15 June 2012, to appeal the orders…Residents are see by the number of people rising that not everybody planning to submit their opposition”. will be able speak unless there is discipline over time. With the intervention of human rights groups, the demolition orders were extended to last Sunday, but 3.10 pm they have now expired again. We are talking about residential tents, which house over 100 people; kitchens; Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): In deference shops; a clinic; a community centre; museums; the solar not only to that, Mrs Brooke, but to the two fine panels that provide electricity; and shelters for animals. speeches we heard setting out the core of the issue with The entire village—everything—will be demolished. The Area C, I will keep my comments short and limit them villagers are on watch every day waiting for the bulldozers principally to one case, which is the village of Susiya. to arrive under the protection of the army. That is life When debating Palestine, we sometimes lose a little for many Palestinians. Will the Minister take up that context when we talk about Israel’s problems in its case, not only because it is important in itself, but governance of the west bank. Israel is an occupying because it is the tip of the iceberg of what is happening power of the west bank and has been since 1967. Over to villages in that area? If he has not done so already, I that time, it has engaged in an aggressive policy of ask him to make particular mention of the case to the colonisation, which has also involved the active displacement Government of Israel. of the indigenous Palestinian population, whether they I was alerted to that case by an organisation called be settled or Bedouin communities. That is the context. the Ecumenical Accompaniment Programme in Palestine The lives of the Palestinians are compromised and and Israel, which is a very good Christian organisation disrupted daily, whether physically, by the settlements, through which people live peacefully with Palestinian barriers and checkpoints, or organisationally, through villagers for months. Its members brought in videos that pass laws and restrictions on movement, trade and so showed me not only threats from the military, but from on, which, sadly, bear a resemblance to some activities another village called Susiya, which is a nearby, well of the apartheid regime in South Africa—pass laws and developed Israeli settler village with every modern such matters. The fact is that Israel has no business convenience. Under the protection of the military, the under international law being in the west bank. That is settlers come down to the Palestinian village armed why, although I agree with the hon. Member for Beckenham with guns; they throw stones and attack Palestinian (Bob Stewart) that we must try to bring people together, villagers. That is something that I have seen myself on blame must be attached where blame falls. It principally video and film. lies with the occupying power. To assist the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), Mrs Grant: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the I can tell him the figures that the United Nations Relief activities of the Israeli defence and security forces in a and Works Agency gave recently when it came to Parliament number of situations have a real effect on normal to brief Members on the situation in Area C: Area A, people—the little people whom my hon. Friend the which is under full Palestinian control, is about 17% of Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) referred to—and the west bank; Area B is about 21%; and Area C, where engender an atmosphere of worrying hate and distrust? there is full Israeli control, is about 61%. Those figures were given to us within the past two weeks. Mr Slaughter: Absolutely. Occupation does that in its Equally important when considering Area C is the own right, but this is not a benign occupation. This is fact that 70% of that 60% is off limits to Palestinians. It violence. It has accelerated with an increase in settler is either settlements, land controlled by settlements or violence of 144% in the past two years. It is an organised other areas—my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen campaign to disrupt the lives of Palestinians and to North (Mr Doran) mentioned nature reserves and other extend the occupation, which continues year-on-year “scams”, for want of a better word—that restrict Palestinian and which, as the hon. Member for Beckenham said, access. Given that 29% is already built-up land, only 1% increasingly makes a two-state solution difficult, if not of Area C is actually potentially available for development impossible. That is why we need more from the by Palestinians—the people whose land it is. We will get Government—not only words, but action. nowhere until that situation is resolved. I will briefly use the example of the village of Susiya Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): Does to show exactly what the Palestinians are up against. It my hon. Friend agree that one of the most cynical is a Bedouin village on an escarpment in the south aspects is the Kafkaesque way in which the illegal 297WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 298WH occupiers use international law to say, “Ah, we should such as settlement, are important factors, which deserve rely on the established law—Ottoman law and mandate debate and must be dealt with. However, they do not law—for the legal framework for house demolitions”? necessarily lie at the core of the conflict. Making them, Those laws are used in a perverted way to disadvantage as has happened increasingly in recent years, the sole the Palestinian residents who should have rights in that reason for the lack of peace, while blaming Israeli illegally occupied land, while a completely different set intransigence, is not helpful. It is important to look at of legal rights are applied to the illegal occupations. Is it the history of peace negotiations and offers. not that twisted way of interpreting the law that adds offence to the physical destruction of homes, schools Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- and other properties? op): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Slaughter: My right hon. Friend is right. Rules and regulations are manipulated in an absolutely cynical Andrew Percy: I will give way quickly, because I get way to wear down and break the spirit of Palestinians my extra minute, and I want to hear the hon. Lady. living in the west bank. I think that it has been proved that that does not work. The resilience of the Palestinian Cathy Jamieson: Before the hon. Gentleman goes on people there is extraordinary, which is why there is also to talk about the history, will he accept that, notwithstanding violence. Arrests, detention—including of children—and all he has outlined, and all the nuances, we should be administrative detention, which happens on a continual concerned when we hear of the basic humanitarian basis, are all designed to break the will of the Palestinian issue of people not getting enough water to live on? people and favour the occupier and settlers over the indigenous population. I know that the Minister knows Andrew Percy: Absolutely, and projects have just those matters well, but I hope that he will redouble his been approved, I think, by the United States Agency for efforts. I will end on that point. International Development that we hope will resolve I know that it is a little cheeky, but in the interests of that. The issue of water needs to be resolved quickly. trying to be conciliatory on these matters, can I get a My support, if one calls it that, for the state of Israel response from the Minister fairly soon on Mohammed does not mean that I am an unconditional friend. There Abu Mueleq? He is a former Hamas fighter and activist are things that the Israeli Government do that I—and a who is now reformed and wishes to come to the UK to large number of Israeli citizens—do not approve of. It is talk to us about the ways of peace. important to remember that some of the biggest criticisms of the Israeli Government come from within Israel. Mr Doran: On a point of order, Mrs Brooke, in my previous contribution I mentioned trips that had been Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): On the humanitarian organised by the all-party group, but I forgot to draw issue in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, people often attention to my entry, which I would like to be noted, in describe the security barrier as an apartheid tool. Has the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. not the number of people killed in suicide attacks and similar occurrences fallen dramatically as a result of the Annette Brooke (in the Chair): I thank the hon. building of the wall? Does not every state have a Gentleman for putting that on the record. responsibility to protect its citizens from violence? Because of the number of hon. Members still wanting to speak, I am imposing a time limit of three minutes on Andrew Percy: That is true. It is important to remember Back-Bench speeches. Each of the first two interventions that the barrier—the figures speak for themselves, but I accepted will stop the clock and give the Member do not have time to quote them—protects Israeli citizens, accepting the intervention an extra minute. The Clerk including Arab and Christian Israelis, as well as Jewish will ring the bell when there is one minute left. Israelis. We should never forget that. We should also not forget that the Israeli Government have been taken to 3.19 pm court and have lost in the courts on the issue, because Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I think I Israel is a democracy. understand the timings, Mrs Brooke, and will try to Let us look at some of the offers that have been made. stick to them. I congratulate the hon. Member for There were peace treaties with Egypt in 1979 and with Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) on securing the debate, Jordan in 1994. Both of those are clear examples of and on his point of order, which reminds me that I land being relinquished in return for a peaceful settlement. should also draw attention to my declaration in the It is not true that Israel is not prepared to cede land for Register of Members’ Financial Interests. peace. In 2000, at Camp David, a major peace offer was I feel that some rebalancing is needed in some of our made by Israel. Had that been accepted, 97% of the discussions in the House on this subject. I make no land in the west bank and Gaza would have been apology for my position of support for Israel as a state, available to create a Palestinian state. My hon. Friend and its right to exist. Accepting it as the only legitimate the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) mentioned democracy in its part of the world, we rightly attach to the settlement freeze. That was rejected and ignored, Israel a higher standard than we do to others. That is and then, all of a sudden, at the end of it, with about a entirely correct. However, the middle east process is month to go, settlements were an issue that was key to fraught with difficulty and nuances, and it is important bringing the Palestinians around the table. to give a fair hearing to both sides. On a recent visit to Israel, hon. Members heard from The use of language is important, and I bristle somewhat Ehud Olmert that the offer made in 2008 would have at the use of the word “apartheid”, just as I do not meant withdrawal from 93% of the west bank. As I said approve of those who accuse people of being anti-Semitic in some of my interventions, we need to understand if they criticise Israel. Some of the issues raised today, that there have not been any new settlements since 1993. 299WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 300WH

[Andrew Percy] “The forced displacement of Palestinian families and the destruction of civilian homes and other property by Israeli forces in the West I personally do not agree with the expansion of settlements, Bank, including East Jerusalem, have a serious humanitarian but we must understand that the vast majority of those impact. Demolitions deprive people of their homes, often their main source of physical and economic security. They also disrupt settlements are along the 1967 green line, and most of their livelihoods”. them will come into Israel. Israel has not been frightened in the past of removing illegal settlements, as it is doing The psychological effects on families are distressing. with outposts at the moment. The fact file adds that the Israeli authorities say that often I am a bit confused as to how long I have left for my “demolitions are carried out because structures lack the required speech. [Interruption.] I think that is a minute—excellent. building permits. In reality, it is almost impossible for Palestinians My goose is cooked in a minute. I wanted to talk about to obtain permits. The zoning and planning regime”— incitement. It is a matter of concern that documents from junior Foreign Office officials say that incitement Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. is being used as an excuse in Israel. That is not the case. Some of the examples of how Israel, Jewish people and, indeed, Christians are described on Palestinian television 3.28 pm are unacceptable. There is incitement in the Palestinian Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): It is a pleasure Authority, which has a serious impact. It is an abuse of to follow the hon. Member for Bolton South East the population there, and it has an impact on bringing (Yasmin Qureshi). I congratulate the hon. Member for the two sides together. That needs to be addressed more Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and draw hon. Members’ rigorously. In particular, there is the issue of school text attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ books, on which we have not received a satisfactory Financial Interests. response from the Department for International I have listened with interest to the debate. One of the Development. At the end of the day, as my hon. Friend problems is that we get hung up on the issue of settlements. the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) We must consider Israel’s history of dealing with settlements said, the issue is education and increasing trade. Those in relation to peace. In 2005, Israel destroyed the Jewish things are more likely to bring both sides together— settlements in Gaza and withdrew from them. In 1982, in return for peace with Egypt, it withdrew from Sinai, Annette Brooke (in the Chair): Order. destroying the settlements as part of the peace agreement. 3.25 pm In fact, only last month, the outpost of Ulpana was ruled illegal by the Israeli courts. Israel has withdrawn Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): It is a from that and will demolish it. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. The key point is that the Israeli Government will We have talked about the context, and I want to go remove settlements once peace has been agreed. I have back to that. When the state of Israel was created, the been to Israel and the west bank with the Conservative Jewish population was given 55% of the land, even Friends of Israel, and I have also been to Jordan, the though three quarters of the population of the then west bank and Israel with the Council for European state of Palestine was Palestinian. In 1948, after the war Palestinian Relations, and I have seen that the situation of independence, Israel managed to obtain 78% of the on the ground is dire. It is important that negotiations land, and the Palestinians were given 22%, which is take place without preconditions. what we call Gaza and the west bank. More than 3 million Palestinians were expelled by the Israelis during Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): The those times. hon. Gentleman mentioned the settlement of Ulpana, One part of the Oslo agreement related to the west which is being demolished. Will he confirm that the bank, and it was divided into three sectors. My hon. deal that demolishes that illegal settlement includes the Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) construction of 851 other units somewhere else? When has talked about that, and I want to talk about Area C, he refers to settlements, does he include East Jerusalem, which is now controlled by the Israelis. As a result of which Israel does not regard as settlement building? various actions in the past few years, it appears that a further percentage will be absorbed, and that Area C Bob Blackman: East Jerusalem must be part of the will probably end up as part of Israel, leaving Palestine negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israeli with only 12% of the land. Government. The reality is that there are now more I am not overly fond of statistics, but they show the Arabs living in Jerusalem than ever before. I agree that stark contrast in the picture. In 1972 the number of the negotiations are paramount and must take place Israeli settlers in Area C was 1,200; in 1993 it was forthwith. The problem is that while the Palestinians 110,000; and in 2010 it was 310,000. That does not fail to get round the negotiating table, and continue to include the 200,000 living in East Jerusalem. The number set preconditions that will not be acceptable to the of Palestinians, as of now, is only 150,000. The illegal Israeli Government, settlement activity will continue settlers often live in the 124 formal and about 100 informal apace. We have heard lots of statistics today. The reality settlements, both of which have been declared illegal is that just 5% of Area C is occupied by settlements. under international law and, as been mentioned, under There will be a negotiation at some future time over Israeli law as well. whether that land is to be part of Palestine and the west If people doubt the sources of my information, what bank, or part of Israel, as a result of land swaps. I am referring to comes from the UN Office for the The key issue before us today is the need to encourage Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs. A fact-file from the Government of Israel and the Palestinian authorities January states: to get round the table. I urge my hon. Friend the 301WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 302WH

Minister to do all that he can to persuade both parties One of the things that struck me on my most recent to do so immediately. The position now is that Netanyahu visit was how small the place is and how critical the is heading a coalition Government, which gives Israel issues are. We went to the Ma’ale Adumim area, where certainty for the indefinite future. Under freedom of the Bedouin whom we talked about earlier were. The information requests, we have discovered that Foreign area between that settlement and Jericho is the same as Office officials seem to have written off Netanyahu. the area between my constituency in Southampton and That is wrong, and what we should be doing is encouraging Winchester. On a train, that is about enough time get a him and his whole Government to get round the table cup of coffee and get out a laptop. Yet if that settlement with the Palestinians. continues, the west bank is effectively wholly divided. There is no possibility of a Palestinian state with physical Guto Bebb: On the issue of the Netanyahu, does my integrity. That is why the settlement must stop now; hon. Friend share my aspirations to see the Kadima and otherwise, it will be almost impossible for the negotiations Likud Government move forward to constructive dialogue? to reach a resolution. Such a dialogue might have been difficult in the past because of the dependence of the previous coalition on 3.36 pm some of the extremist parties in Israeli politics. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Southampton, Bob Blackman: Indeed. The one thing that I would Itchen (Mr Denham). I congratulate the hon. Member not wish on anyone is Israel’s system of elections. for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) on securing this debate. However, the coalition Government give us the potential This is a hugely complex issue. All of us who have for a lasting and just settlement, and the opportunity visited Israel or the Palestinian Authority will know for stability and peace. It is for the Palestinians to grasp what a small geographical area of land we are talking this opportunity. It is right that they get round the table about. It is important to get these complex issues into now, without preconditions, to ensure that they achieve some sense of proportion. We are talking about Area C, that peace. in which 150,000 Palestinians live. There are 1.4 million Finally, there is one significant gap in the Queen’s Palestinians living in Israel and 2.5 million Palestinians long reign: she has never paid a proper state visit to living in Areas A and B. It would be wrong if this Israel or any part of Palestine. I ask the Foreign Office—I Chamber today gave the world the impression that we have written to the Foreign Secretary about this—to are talking about most of the Palestinian population, prevail upon the Queen to make such a visit. After all, if because we are not. she can go to Northern Ireland and shake hands with The west bank has always been under occupation. In the Deputy First Minister, why not go and seek peace in 1948, it was annexed by Jordan, which, as far as I can that great part of the holy lands of this world? tell, did not do much with it. The Gaza strip was annexed by Egypt, and then the situation was even 3.33 pm worse. To imply that it is just Israel that has occupied Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): I this benighted land would be quite inaccurate. draw the Chamber’s attention to my declaration in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and to the Mr Slaughter: The hon. Gentleman is showing fact that I accompanied my hon. Friend the Member uncharacteristic false logic. The reason for designating for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) on his recent visit to Area A is because it contains the main Palestinian the region. towns. It would be a bit like saying that as long as we excluded London, Manchester and Birmingham, we What the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) could allow someone else to occupy all the rural areas described as preconditions were, until recently, regarded of England. This is the Palestinians’ land, and they are as the mutually agreed starting point for the way to entitled to all of it. achieve a two-state solution. Those have now been withdrawn from negotiations, which makes things more Mr Hollobone: One of the big tragedies of the Palestinian difficult. I wanted to highlight the way that Area C, nation was that it did not accept the United Nations which was originally conceived of as a transitional partition plan in 1948. A whole series of wrong decisions measure—part of the process of going to a two-state have been made by the Arab people since that time. The solution—is slowly but surely being taken by the Israelis Israelis are not going to go away. After the holocaust in as an area of Israeli authority, in which they are able to Europe, they deserve a homeland. As David Ben-Gurion impose their will, often with a fiction of law, as I said in said, we will have to arrive at a peaceful settlement with an intervention, to the disadvantage of the Palestinian the Arab people who live in the Holy Land. We are all people. That is a very different concept of Area C. It still in pursuit of that peace. Some of the Palestinians raises a number of important questions. live in terrible situations. I visited them myself in the As European taxpayers, we are, to a considerable Gaza strip, and on the west bank. That is all the more extent, paying the human and social cost of that occupation. reason to arrive at a peace settlement with Israel, so that We are paying the very substantial funding for the both peoples can live in harmony with each other. Like Palestinian Authority, and for pretty much all of what is my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), described as economic growth within the occupied I am not in the blame game. I recognise that this is a territories. It has been wholly right to provide funding hugely complicated situation, but we must get a sense of in that way, as part of a genuine transition towards a proportion if we are to arrive at sensible and lasting two-state solution. It is not at all obvious to me how we peace for both the Israeli and Palestinian people. will continue to make the case for European taxpayers finding that money when we are funding not a transition Annette Brooke (in the Chair): I call Ben Bradshaw— to a peaceful solution, but the status quo. literally for one minute. 303WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 304WH

3.39 pm the Palestinian Authority was that the situation on the ground was very pressing indeed and much more urgent Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Thank you, than I had appreciated. There is a real sense of frustration, Mrs Brooke, for giving me—a former middle east Minister and I feared what the consequences of that frustration —a minute to speak. might be when I visited communities in the west bank. I want to ask the Minister specifically about the Government’s policy on produce from the illegal settlements. Let us be clear. If we are to build a two-state solution, As he will be aware, the Foreign Office has consistently which I think everyone in the Chamber wants, there said that it cannot move the British Government’s policy must be two viable states, which are secure in their forward on this issue, because it would be illegal to do borders. It is, of course, accepted that the precise nature so. However, he may be aware that the Foreign Office of the two states—their geographical outline—will be a has recently received new legal advice—if he is not matter of negotiation between Israel and the Palestinian aware of it, I hope that he will make himself aware of Authority, but the continued expansion of the settlements it—that points to the opposite being the case. It is poses an urgent threat to the future for a two-state actually arguable that a country that sells or receives solution. produce from the illegal settlements is itself breaking I was very struck when I was in Israel by a discussion the law—in other words, we may be breaking the law—and that I had—other Members in the Chamber were present— that a ban on produce from the illegal settlements with an official from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign would not be illegal under EU law, under World Trade Affairs. First, he said that, in his words, “A one-state Organisation law or under the general agreement on solution would be a disaster for the state of Israel.” tariffs and trade obligations. Secondly, he said that he wanted to see a two-state I make this appeal to the Minister if he is interested solution but time was running out for the creation of in doing something that I think most people here would two viable states in Israel and Palestine. The reason why like him to do. Condemnation and criticism is all very time is running out is the expansion of the settlements, well but it has achieved nothing with the Netanyahu which is happening each day, each week and each Government. The remorseless expansion of settlements month that goes by. The Palestinian Authority has done continued during the years when I was a Minister, it a very good job in improving security, which is a profound continued under my successors and it still continues and legitimate concern for Israel, but it feels that it is now that he is Minister. Will he please look at the issue not making progress with Israel in the way that it wishes again and, with his European partners, ensure that we to. have a much more robust policy on importing goods Many of us are very frustrated by the present approach from the illegal settlements? of the Israeli Government. I am a very strong supporter of an Israeli state; for so long, although thankfully no longer, it was the only democracy in the middle east. 3.41 pm However, it is imperative that we continue to engage Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a privilege to be with Israel, and I deplore those who suppress discussion here in Westminster Hall under your chairmanship, and debate with legitimate organisations that support Mrs Brooke, and to have listened to the contributions to Israel, because none of us will get anywhere by cutting the debate. As always seems to be the case when we have off discussion and debate; it is very important indeed debates on the middle east, we have not had enough that they continue. time for people to expand their arguments. It would be When I meet friends from the Israeli embassy, I very welcome indeed if we could have a longer debate. always make clear my frustration about the expansion Perhaps we could consider approaching the Backbench of settlements. It is a key issue and it must be resolved. Business Committee to ask for an opportunity to discuss One or two comments in the debate have rather diminished matters at greater length. That would be very helpful. it, but it is central and it must be resolved if we are to I also want to draw Members’ attention to my entry make real progress. in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. I was I am afraid that when I visited the west bank I was privileged to go to the middle east—to Israel and depressed by what I saw. I will talk about one particular Palestine—recently, in the company of my hon. Friend visit, which was to Hebron, a beautiful city. the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran), my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) and the right hon. Member for Bermondsey The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes). As a member of and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): Very sad. Labour Friends of Israel, I visited Israel last November, in the company of the shadow Foreign Secretary, my Ian Lucas: It is profoundly sad, because Hebron is a right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire place that I would love to see in better times. In the South (Mr Alexander). centre, a horrible concrete wall runs down the middle of On my most recent visit, which was about two months the main shopping street, which separates Palestinians ago, I was struck by the urgency of the issues relating to from Israelis. It is profoundly sad to see, and the situation Israel and the Palestinian Authority, and by the profound is clearly untenable in the longer term. frustration that I found on the west bank in Ramallah Sometimes I think that we have too many maps of when I spoke to representatives of the Palestinian Authority Israel and Palestine, and not enough good sense, because about the pace of progress in the discussions that were this is about attitude, state of mind and trust between taking place. Like most people, before I went out there I communities. Of course people have lived together in was aware that people were perhaps looking to a second communities for a long time in the region, but it is term for President Obama as a time when there might imperative that some element of trust is built up. In the be some progress. However, the message I received from Palestinian Authority, it is very clear that Prime Minister 305WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 306WH

Salam Fayyad is highly thought of by the Israelis, and I want to pick up, and endorse entirely, the sense of the security situation has improved enormously, but the urgency with which the hon. Member for Wrexham authority feels that the progress that has been made, spoke. In the past 18 months, when the world’s attention including some economic progress, is not being rewarded has been directed to many things in the region, not least by progress in the creation of an atmosphere of trust the Arab spring, the Government have sought continually that will lead to proper negotiations that will bring to raise with those most closely involved the importance resolution to the dispute. of not losing sight of making progress in the middle Israel has a very strong record, with an independent east peace process, efforts of which I hope colleagues judiciary and judges who stand up to the Government, are proud. I recognise the sense of urgency. I recognise much as our judges do—sometimes—in this country. the sense of frustration when visiting areas where people However, I am afraid that Israel is not applying the law are wondering what happens next. We convey that to fairly in areas of the west bank, as we have heard. I both sides, and it is why we have engagement. visited a military prison where juvenile offenders were In the past few days, I have spoken to the negotiators being tried. They had not had access to legal advice; on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides. Despite the indeed, they were not allowed to have their parents fact that talks in Oman earlier this year were not present at interrogations. Israel could do something conclusive, there is still contact on both sides. I think about that. Israel has a proud tradition of giving individual there is recognition that something has to happen, but it rights to people, and that tradition should be extended is tentative stuff, as we all know. We encourage both to those courts. I have written to the Israeli embassy sides to be as flexible as possible, and not to talk about expressing that view in forthright terms, because this is preconditions but to ensure that those who need to talk about building up trust. together are able to do so. Ultimately, this is all about At the moment, there is an increasing sense of resentment Israel’s future security, about ensuring that it is a viable, in the west bank among Palestinian communities who secure and universally recognised state, and that there is are seeing the expansion of settlements. “Settlements” an independent and viable state of Palestine that has is a very misleading word, because they are huge estates the opportunity to develop. and developments; they do not appear temporary at all. We need a different attitude from the parties to the Richard Burden: I certainly know the sincerity with dispute, to begin to take matters forward. I hope that which the Minister is talking. He has been clear—both comes from the creation of a new Government in Front-Bench speakers have—about the illegality of Israel—set up in the week I was there—but as yet, I am settlements, and about the fact that the window for a afraid that no progress has been made. two-state solution is closing rapidly. Will he, though, I urge the Minister to convey the strong views that address the question that my right hon. Friend the have been expressed today to the Israeli authorities and Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) asked? If the settlements to Palestine, and to ensure that the Palestinian Authority are illegal—they are—and the European Union and the sees that engagement with Israel and discussion about UK purchase goods from them, or are involved with the pressing issues is vital—I am sure he will. There companies that trade with them, there is growing legal needs to be active discussion, certainly before the presidential opinion that we are colluding in that illegality. Is the elections in the United States. The current situation Minister prepared to look into that? There might need cannot continue. The two-state solution is under threat. to be some pressure, if we are going to move this along in the way that we need to.

3.50 pm Alistair Burt: I will come to settlements in a moment. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign On settlement produce, we value the fact that people and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): It is a pleasure have choice about their purchase of goods, but the issue to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke. I thank of settlement produce and financing is under active the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) for consideration in London and in Brussels. securing the debate, and for the thoughtful and measured, I shall say a little bit about settlements. The fact that but passionate, set of remarks with which he opened it, we have such a good relationship with both Israel and in typical fashion. That was followed by a number of the Palestinians is important. It enables us to discuss high-quality contributions from Members on both sides—so issues directly. Israel is a valued friend to the United many, in fact, that I hope colleagues will appreciate that Kingdom, and we are working together to deepen that I am not able to refer to each and every one. They were relationship in a number of important areas, but not at followed in turn, and in no small measure, by the the expense of other relationships. Just as we are building equally thoughtful remarks of the hon. Member for a strong partnership with Israel, so too we are continuing Wrexham (Ian Lucas). to enhance our relationship with the Palestinians. We In a sense, we have two issues: the placing of the do not always agree with each other, and one of our discussion of Area C in the context of the overall primary concerns, which a number of Members have settlement, to which a number of colleagues referred, addressed, is in relation to settlements. We take the and the matters that relate specifically to Area C. I will view, which we have repeated, and which is shared on concentrate on the latter but, as all colleagues know, both sides of the House, that settlement building is and as many have mentioned, it is impossible to separate illegal under international law and increasingly threatens the ultimate future of Area C and the issues that we the viability of the two-state solution. The issue is rising have discussed from the overall context of the need for a up the international agenda, and I urge the Israeli conclusion to the long-standing dispute between Israel authorities to listen carefully. They do not take the same and Palestine. view of its importance as those outside Israel do. 307WH West Bank (Area C)4 JULY 2012 West Bank (Area C) 308WH

[Alistair Burt] mentioned Khan al-Ahmar, and colleagues probably know that I, too, have been there, and have seen the The issue of settlements is increasingly important, school that the hon. Member for Aberdeen North and we will repeat our concerns when we hear about mentioned. I saw the construction of the road barriers, new ones, but it cannot be denied that the issue will not because we dropped in unannounced on the day they be concluded unless the overall settlement is agreed. were being put in, so we saw that the access to the That is why we encourage both sides to get to work on village had been changed. it. Merely complaining about settlements will not be We have discussed the Bedouin settlement itself; the enough. I assure the House that we take the matter question is what to do in the future. The chances of the seriously, and continually urge the Israeli authorities to settlement being moved to a rubbish dump are now try to understand why we are so concerned. If the lower than they were, but that is not conclusive. Of viability of the two-state solution is threatened, I do not importance is that I also spent time with Israeli Minister think that the ultimate prospects will be as good for Benny Begin. He is Minister without portfolio, who is Israel as they should be. responsible for the difficult job of talking to the Bedouin The international community considers the west bank community about their ultimate future. I formed the view and Gaza as occupied territory, and recognises the that he is sincere in his efforts to consult with the many applicability of the fourth Geneva convention on the different Bedouin groups, to try to find an answer that protection of civilians. In relation to Area C, certain is not forced, but colleagues will have the chance to things could be addressed now, regardless of the overall judge for themselves because he is due to be in the UK context, one of which is building. Figures from the next week. His programme is not fully settled, but I am Israeli civil administration show that between 2007 and hopeful that there will be an opportunity for Members 2010, 1,426 building permit applications were submitted to have a conversation with him about the matter. I by Palestinians in Area C, of which only 64 led to recommend that they take the opportunity, should it permits being issued. That is in contrast to Israeli arise, as I think they would find it helpful. settlement and development, and it affects the economic viability of Area C and the west bank. That viability is A point was raised about EU projects being demolished. to the mutual benefit of Israel and the Palestinians, and That issue has been taken up with the Foreign Affairs we hope to see the issue settled. Equally, until Area C Council. We need to work hard to ensure that the EU comes more under Palestinian control, it will not be builds things that are not prone to demolition, but we possible for the Palestinian Authority to build up its have expressed our concerns. revenues and deliver to the rest of the Palestinian people, Finally, Members raised the different treatment under which would save the rest of us money because we the law of Palestinians, particularly children, in the west support that economic development and the Palestinian bank and Area C. The matter was recently taken up by Authority. an independent report, which speaks for itself. We will A particular concern, which a number of Members be looking closely to see how the Israeli authorities, have highlighted, is the situation of the Bedouin in who have said many good things about wanting to Area C. We have objected strongly to Israel’s plans for change the law, deliver. the forced transfer of Bedouin communities, in particular It is 4 o’clock, so I conclude by saying that I appreciate from the area east of Jerusalem. A number of Members colleagues’ engagement with such an important topic. 309WH 4 JULY 2012 Nuclear Power 310WH

Nuclear Power nuclear market and to invest in a truly secure, low-carbon renewable energy future. Given where I come from, I want this Parliament to move in a similar direction. 4pm Nuclear power development has always required high levels of public subsidy. The Minister should know Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): It is a better than anyone the deferred cost of an ill-thought-out pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, nuclear programme, as the Nuclear Decommissioning Mrs Brooke. Authority spends £1.7 billion a year on managing nuclear In the debate on the future nuclear programme, our waste and other liabilities from Britain’s current nuclear inability to learn from past mistakes is sometimes staggering. power programme. That amounts to more than half the I well remember the 2008 Public Accounts Committee budget of the Department of Energy and Climate Change, report that drew attention to the vastly underestimated which is a staggering legacy for the taxpayer and one to cost of nuclear power and highlighted the nuclear industry’s which the previous Secretary of State frequently alluded. tendency to lumber the taxpayer with an ever-increasing The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority was also and seemingly endless bill. The fallacy of committing responsible for closing the MOX plant at Sellafield. billions more pounds of public expenditure to nuclear That plant cost the taxpayer £1.6 billion, and was energy has never been more apparent than it is now. another disastrous legacy of the nuclear programme. Its Whether it is the disastrous consequences of the Japanese existence also meant that a constant stream of hazardous earthquake, Germany’s decision to end investment in material was being shipped daily through the Irish sea nuclear or, closer to home, the billions of pounds of and along the Irish coast. That was all for a plant subsidies being squandered at the uneconomical mixed designed to process 120 tonnes of MOX a year, but oxide—MOX—plant at Sellafield and the decision of which instead produced the grand total of six tonnes RWE, SSE and E.ON to pull out of the market, it is over its entire lifespan. clear that nuclear is not the energy source on which the Government should be concentrating. On the draft Energy Bill 2012 and the future nuclear programme, sadly, there are warning signs that this Hon. Members may be wondering why an MP from a Government are prepared to repeat the same mistakes. I constituency in Northern Ireland has a particular interest fear that people will be having a similar debate in 20 in this subject. I represent the constituency of South years’ time. It could not be clearer, given current record Down, which is straight across the Irish sea from Sellafield, oil and petrol prices, that reliance on imported fossil and we have had many concerns over the years. I am fuels is not serving customers, business or the wider very pleased that the Minister is here to respond to the economy. Although I commend the stated aim in the debate. Although its main focus will be the economic Government’s draft Energy Bill to decarbonise the electricity costs, I must mention the impact of nuclear on public sector, the path set out in the legislation seems to safety, which cannot be separated from the economic prioritise subsidising nuclear fuel, and people will continue argument. to be vulnerable to high prices. The real point in looking at a disaster such as Fukushima In Northern Ireland, more people every year are in Japan is not necessarily to try to draw a direct parallel falling into fuel poverty, and the draft Bill was an to what might happen here, but rather to use it to opportunity to make the bold changes necessary to illustrate the fact that nuclear power can never be made reform the energy market with a view to the long-term entirely safe. There will always be unforeseen contingencies needs of the economy. Consumers and businesses are that have potentially disastrous consequences. People suffering and they need a coherent strategy that delivers in my constituency and across Ireland have been living clean, green jobs and sustainable fuel prices. Sadly, in the shadow of such a possibility because of the the draft Bill appears to do little more than nod to the Sellafield plant, which has been considered the most renewable industry, while winking at the nuclear industry. radioactive site on the planet for more than 40 years. The Government seem intent on delivering more of the Over the plant’s lifespan, there have been hundreds of same, especially in their continued obsession with recorded safety breaches and high levels of indiscriminate the expensive and ultimately unsafe energy source that discharges of radioactive waste into the Irish sea. The is nuclear power. MOX plant at Sellafield, which was built to process spent fuel from the old thermal oxide reprocessing plant Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate or THORP—itself the subject of an international nuclear the hon. Lady on securing this important debate, and I event scale level 3 leak—has also required high levels of agree with all the points in her extremely cogent argument. hazardous transportation of plutonium dioxide through Is not one of the many risks that consumers, and the the Irish sea to Cumbria. All this for a plant that was economy generally, will get locked into artificially high disastrously inefficient and had to be closed following prices for electricity as the only means of making it its financial failure. It is not therefore surprising that viable for energy companies to undertake the huge public opinion in my constituency has been consistently investment necessary to build nuclear plants? anti-nuclear, and it must be recognised that a major incident will not heed, or relate to, any borders on our Ms Ritchie: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his island. There is also concern about the possibility of intervention, and I agree with that thesis. I want to underground storage for the world’s radioactive waste. make a little progress. It was against the backdrop of such catastrophic risk, as demonstrated by the disaster at Fukushima, and David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I, too, with a more realistic appraisal of the spiralling cost of congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate. She nuclear power provision, that Chancellor Angela Merkel is talking about the level of subsidy in relation to the and the German Parliament decided to pull out of the current Bill and in general. Does she not agree that 311WH Nuclear Power4 JULY 2012 Nuclear Power 312WH

[David Mowat] If we do not get a replacement for the nuclear capacity in north Wales, we will see real poverty in many parts of the level of subsidy that will be proposed for nuclear is north-west Wales. considerably lower than that for solar, offshore wind or, indeed, onshore wind? How does that equate with her Ms Ritchie: I understand the concerns of hon. Members concerns about fuel poverty, because that seems a little whose constituencies have nuclear facilities, but I see the odd? issue from a different perspective. We have witnessed the harmful effects of nuclear on the environment. I will Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his not talk about its harmful effects on health, because I intervention. I take what he says, but I am obviously do not think that the evidential base has been built up putting forward a different thesis. I disagree with his sufficiently, but it has definitely had an effect on the fundamental point, but perhaps I can provide some environment. There has been too much public subsidy explanation, if he will let me continue. for nuclear, and I firmly believe in and support renewables. The Government are clearly going in the face of the How can CFDs be seen as anything other than a energy industry, given the decision by various companies veiled subsidy, and how is that coherent with the coalition to pull out of the future nuclear programme. Even agreement, which ruled out any such subsidy? Has the EDF,the only remaining player in the game, has seemingly Minister consulted on the potential conflict with European adopted a lukewarm approach to the new build programme Union state aid rules? Is he able to rule out a potential and has postponed its commitment to it, saying only long-running wrangle with the EU, which would do that it will decide at the turn of the year. To answer the nothing other than bring more uncertainty to the sector hon. Gentleman’s question on cost, I come from the and to renewable energy investment at this vital time? position of favouring renewables; I have a strong belief in them, as opposed to nuclear, given the geographical No nuclear plant has ever been built without state position that I come from. EDF’s approach is hardly a subsidy, and such plants simply cannot exist in the open ringing endorsement, from the only company that has market. There is a pattern of activity to underscore even tentatively committed to the future nuclear programme. that, because every statement from and move by the It seems that no serious player in the industry thinks industry is a tacit admission of that fact. We must learn that future investment can go ahead without a serious from past mistakes and acknowledge that the headline public subsidy. Indeed, no nuclear plant has ever been price attached to nuclear power is always far below the developed without large amounts of public subsidy, and eventual cost once decommissioning and waste disposal it is obvious that the companies will not enter into the have been accounted for. It not only presents a potential future nuclear programme without such assurances. environmental catastrophe, but leaves a radioactive The Government’s proposal in the draft Energy Bill economic legacy. It is not good enough to buy now and for contracts for difference appears to be little more leave taxpayers and future Governments to foot the bill than a subsidy through the back door. CFDs allow years down the line. utility firms to levy a top-up charge should the price fall In summary, is the Minister not concerned that three below a certain level. If the cost of nuclear power is to of the four major players in the nuclear new build be cheaper than the current market rate, or at least programme have pulled out; that the fourth, EDF, has competitive, as EDF and the Government maintain, expressed serious concerns; that no nuclear plant and why is the complex mechanism of CFDs required at all? subsequent decommissioning has ever been achieved In the words of Keith MacLean, policy director of without a large Government subsidy; and that the draft Scottish and Southern Energy, which has itself pulled Energy Bill’s proposals have been considered by many out of the future nuclear programme: in the industry as tacit admission that the new build “This complex and messy CFD policy looks like an attempt to programme is little more than a subsidy through the try to hide the state aid from the European Commission and the back door that may contravene EU state aid regulations? subsidy from political opponents of new nuclear.” It is often said in relation to energy policy that the David Mowat: CFDs are necessary because nuclear is Government should not try to pick winners, but it considerably more expensive than either coal or gas, seems as though they are determined to pick a loser. I even though it is many multiples cheaper than most do not want us to be left with a potential environmental large-scale renewables. I find the hon. Lady’s position catastrophe that we will have to subsidise for years to difficult to understand, given her concern about fuel come. Instead, we need a lasting commitment to truly poverty. renewable energy sources and a green new deal. The coalition Government have underscored a commitment Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his to the Green investment bank and to green and renewable intervention. I have made it clear that I am opposed to resources. I am firmly committed to that and I look nuclear power, which, as he has said, is very expensive—it forward to the Minister’s response to the various issues has required Government subsidy to sustain it, and I that I have raised. I understand the points made by hon. fundamentally disagree with that. Members who reside in Britain and have nuclear facilities in their constituencies that provide jobs, but I see the Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I congratulate the issue from a different geographical and political perspective. hon. Lady on securing this debate. Her position is contradictory, because she seems to be complaining 4.15 pm about subsidy for the nuclear industry, yet applauding it for the renewable sector. Surely we should have a level The Minister of State, Department of Energy and playing field. I share the hon. Lady’s concerns about Climate Change (Charles Hendry): It is a pleasure to fuel poverty, but in my part of north Wales we have serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Brooke, and I poverty because our nuclear industry is closing down. am grateful to the hon. Member for South Down 313WH Nuclear Power4 JULY 2012 Nuclear Power 314WH

(Ms Ritchie) for securing this timely debate. Transparency unparalleled commitment to clearing up the legacy of and openness are an important part of the discussions the past is an integral part of having permission for a that we need to have about nuclear. In that context, I new-build nuclear programme in the future. want to start by making a couple of corrections to what It is necessary to understand that the UK’s civil she said. We are not down to just one major nuclear nuclear legacy is quite unique, as it is made up of a player alongside EDF.Centrica, the UK’s biggest energy range of experimental facilities created up to 50 years company, is a partner in its consortium, and other ago. The poor condition of some of the estate and the major European players, such as Gaz de France and high cost of dealing with it now reflects the unfortunate Iberdrola, as well as other international players, are fact that, historically, decommissioning challenges were considering how they can be part of the nuclear renaissance overlooked and ignored. However, that also means we in the United Kingdom. This is an area that has attracted are moving into the sector ahead of many other countries. a significant amount of investment from major companies, There is a very important business opportunity for and it continues to do so. British companies in the sector to win international On another issue of transparency—to pick up on a contracts as other countries start their decommissioning point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington programmes as well. South (David Mowat)—I hope that the hon. Lady Of course, with new nuclear power will come nuclear would also accept that, if she rules out the least costly waste. The cost of managing our existing nuclear liabilities large-scale, low-carbon source of generation, the is significant. The current discounted estimate of the consequence for her constituents, particularly those who cost of managing that programme is some £50 billion. are off-gas-grid customers and have a greater reliance That is why we are so committed to finding a long-term, on electricity, would be a rise in their bills, because of cost-effective solution for managing and disposing of their reliance on higher-cost sources of generation. our radioactive waste going forward. The Government’s That is an integral part of understanding the economics policy for the longer term is a safe and secure management of this debate. of higher-activity radioactive waste by placing it in a The challenge of building new nuclear is undoubtedly geological disposal facility. That is the internationally significant. Since 1995, when Sizewell B began generating accepted way forward and it is the Government’s policy, electricity, no new nuclear power station has been built which continues on from the work of the previous in Britain, which demonstrates the challenge of ensuring Administration. that the first new nuclear power station is followed by a full nuclear programme. Although new nuclear power Ms Ritchie: On the potential disposal site for radioactive stations are being built elsewhere around the world, waste, will the Minister indicate where it might be some of them have gone over time and over budget. located and which countries the waste might come from? There are concerns in my constituency about that Tackling the nuclear legacy is a national priority, as because of the geological fault line that lies in Cumbria the hon. Lady has said. We are keen to see it dealt with and the clear, direct parallel with my constituency straight with a degree of vigour that has never been seen before. across the Irish sea in South Down. We want to ensure that the current and previous UK nuclear fleet is cleaned up and decommissioned properly as the various sites cease operation. To do that, we must Charles Hendry: Let me give the hon. Lady a complete understand and learn from the lessons of the past on assurance that we are looking at managing our own nuclear decommissioning. legacy waste, which includes one of the biggest stockpiles of plutonium in the world. Alongside that we are looking That is why the previous Secretary of State, the right at whether there are ways to reuse that plutonium as a hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), commissioned fuel. We are looking for volunteer communities and a report, which was published in March, by Professor have identified some in Cumbria who are prepared to Gordon MacKerron of the university of Sussex, on the work with us to see where appropriate sites might be. history of managing nuclear wastes and decommissioning. However, that would only happen if we are absolutely Professor MacKerron paints a warts-and-all picture of clear about the geological safety of the sites being the UK’s nuclear history and explains why we have such proposed. We are just beginning to carry out such a a difficult legacy of old facilities and waste to manage. process. We want to move it forward faster than has He found that delays by Government and public bodies been the case so far, but that can only happen if we are in tackling nuclear liabilities led to a progressive escalation absolutely satisfied about the environmental, geological of costs and a deterioration in facilities, which has only and geographical matters that relate to it. Builders of begun to be addressed in recent years. new plant will have to put funds into an independent The cost of decommissioning those old nuclear facilities fund to ensure that their own costs associated with their today is high for two primary reasons. The first is the nuclear waste in due course can be managed within that post-war military and research origins of the UK nuclear programme. This is an integral part of the process industry as this country raced to build a nuclear deterrent. moving forward. We are dealing with many of those costs today. The I want to focus now on why I believe we need new second reason is that those responsible—in Government nuclear in this country and how that ties in with the and industry—gave too little priority to clean-up. As concerns the hon. Member for South Down has raised the hon. Lady has said, half the Department of Energy about market reform and why that is such an important and Climate Change budget is spent on that, and the part of this process. We estimate that in order to have a amount will rise to two thirds of our budget in due low-carbon economy where we have sufficient generation course. We are absolutely adamant that there should be to ensure security of supply we will need up to 70 GW no financial constraints on dealing with those legacy of new low-carbon generation by 2030. To put that in matters. To all of us involved in these policy issues, an context, the ambition of the industry in the nuclear 315WH Nuclear Power4 JULY 2012 Nuclear Power 316WH

[Charles Hendry] Japan—we must continue to demonstrate that we are learning from experiences around the world. Implementing sector is for 16 GW by 2025. The overwhelming focus, lessons from other nuclear power plant construction therefore, is on a range of other low-carbon technologies projects has the potential to reduce the cost in the alongside nuclear, including carbon capture and harnessing United Kingdom, reduce the construction risks, help to our own renewables. It is completely wrong to suggest validate timings and identify design changes that will that we are focusing only on nuclear. We see that as a allow for more efficient construction practices. Some of very important element within a much wider and more those are already being dealt with, and the whole process balanced programme. of the generic design assessment programme has been absolutely at the heart of that. We must ensure that we Guto Bebb: The point my hon. Friend has just made have identified the exact nature of the new reactors to is extremely important because sometimes the debate is be built before we start taking that forward. structured in terms of renewables versus nuclear. That One of the most important aspects of the whole is not the issue. For example, in north-west Wales, the programme has been the work to take the matter out of commitment has been made to develop all sorts of politics and carry on Lord Hutton’s work when he was energy sources, not just nuclear. Secretary of State. He did an enormous amount to identify the challenges and give security to investors in Charles Hendry: I am delighted to respond to my enabling them to understand that there is a continuity hon. Friend’s point. I recently had the chance to be of Government approach here that will secure the in Anglesey, which is close to his constituency, to see investment. its vision as an energy island. An immense amount of work is going on there by a range of industrial and Finally, I want to deal with the issue of subsidy. Let educational partners, the local authority and others to me make it absolutely clear where we stand on the create a very compelling case for investment in renewables matter. The coalition agreement set out clearly that alongside nuclear as part of a balanced mix. nuclear power plants should be taken forward without The process of market reform is fundamental to public subsidy and, in a written statement to Parliament achieving that. We have structured things in a way that in October 2010, we reconfirmed that policy. There will we believe delivers the necessary investment at the lowest be no market support to a private sector new nuclear cost to consumers. The hon. Lady highlighted one part operator for electricity supplied or capacity provided of the contract for difference and said that if the price unless similar support is also made available more widely drops, more will be paid. However, the corollary of that to other types of generation. is that if the price is high, we will claw back the Within that, it is implicit that we recognise that contribution. Investors will have continuity, certainty nuclear is the lowest-cost large-scale, low-carbon source and predictability of income stream, which reduces the of generation and that, therefore, additional support cost of capital and of the building programme to consumers. will need to be made available to those emerging In answer to the point made by the right hon. Member technologies in the renewable sector. They will be a very for Oxford East (Mr Smith) in his intervention, such an important part of the process. Any such change requires approach is necessary because we must secure twice as state aid approval. We have started to engage with the much investment each and every year of this decade, European Commission on that and we believe that compared with the previous decade, to keep the lights approval will be achieved because the Government are on. The matter is a national emergency in terms of our not providing support; they are providing a mechanism energy security and is absolutely critical. whereby investors can get a return on their investment. We see nuclear as an important part of our energy David Mowat: Will the Minister give way? future, which has the potential to bring an enormous number of jobs to the United Kingdom. We have already Charles Hendry: I hope that my hon. Friend will seen the university of Oxford, which is represented in understand if I do not give way in the last remaining part by the right hon. Member for Oxford East, harnessing moments. I think that I have picked up on some of his its own nuclear skills and working in coalition and points. I completely agree with him that market reform partnership with the university of Bristol. Many other is the best way of delivering for consumers and that universities are coming forward, and a tremendous having a range of policies and technologies is the best number of companies recognise that they can benefit way of delivering security of supply. from the programme. On new build, as on decommissioning, we are keen to I assure the hon. Member for South Down that we control costs. The progress of construction of the first are looking at the matter very much in the round. We new nuclear power station in the UK will be watched see the benefits of nuclear power, but we will only take carefully by potential investors and developers. We know that forward when we are completely convinced about that an inability to deliver to time and on budget will the wider issues. Market reform is an important part of affect the level of interest in nuclear new build in the that process and will be critical to securing the necessary future, and that would severely limit the potential for a investment. The wider range of issues—safety and new nuclear programme. security matters and long-term waste management—are If we are to maintain strong public support—this also important. We have a programme in place that is one of the few countries where public support for comprehensively addresses those and I hope that I have nuclear has grown since the Fukushima accident in been able to help to reassure her on those points. 317WH 4 JULY 2012 Cruise Market (Competition) 318WH

Cruise Market (Competition) come as no surprise? The Commission seems to be very good at devoting a considerable number of words to many things, but perhaps less good at applying those 4.29 pm ideals when it comes to the crunch. I will quote those Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) words to the Minister: (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, “Sometimes Government authorities spend public money Mrs Brooke. supporting local industries or individual companies. This gives them an unfair advantage over similar sectors in other EU countries. At the outset, I pay tribute to all the right hon. and In other words, it damages competition and distorts trade...It is hon. Members who called for this important debate. I the Commission’s job to prevent this,” draw the Minister’s attention to the cross-party nature which seems a fairly unequivocal statement to me. It and geographical spread represented by those present. does not say that the Commission’s job is to sit back This is not simply Southampton versus Liverpool; it is and allow market distortion. No—it is the Commission’s about the principles of fair application of competition specific job to prevent it. However, first it must apparently rules wherever they are applied. The issue relates to all ask some questions. That is fair enough, and I would parts of the country. I am particularly pleased to see the like to take hon. Members and the Minister through hon. Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) and those questions and ask whether they have been rigorously the right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband). asked and responded to in relation to the UK cruise There are very few things that can bring together the market. south coast ports of Southampton and Portsmouth, so I regret that my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth Have state authorities given support, for example, in North (Penny Mordaunt) cannot be here, but she has the form of grants, interest and tax relief, guarantees, expressed sympathy on the matter before. holdings in companies, or goods and services provided I direct the attention of right hon. and hon. Members on preferential terms? The answer strikes me as a much further north to the Scottish satirical writer, big yes in the case of the port of Liverpool, which Thomas Carlyle, who said: has received £19 million in grant and been asked to pay back only somewhere between £8.8 million and “Our life is not really a mutual helpfulness; but rather, it’s fair competition cloaked under due laws of war”. £12.6 million. Has such aid been available to other port operators in the UK, or has investment and expansion That is why so many hon. Members here today are in their cruise facilities been without such support and flummoxed or angry, or both, at the different application advantage? of due laws of war to different parts of the country, to different ports and to different port operators. Those Is the support likely to affect trade between EU due laws of war are not simply set down by a very countries? Arguably, yes again. Barcelona and Venice British sense of fair play and a desire to see a level are two of the leading ports in southern Europe, and a playing field—or whatever the equivalent nautical term significant proportion of the UK cruise market heads is—but are clearly set out in European competition directly to the Mediterranean. Clearly, therefore, there rules designed to ensure that state aid is not available to is potential for an impact. Of course, it is not only ports give an unfair advantage. on the Mediterranean, but other European ports, too. For the past two years, the port of Copenhagen, primarily Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I congratulate my hosting departures to the Norwegian fjords and the hon. Friend on securing this important debate, which is Baltic, has been rated as Europe’s leading cruise port at also of significant concern to the people of Dover and the world travel awards. In Southampton, we might its very successful cruise turnaround business. When it have a view on that, but it would come as no surprise to comes to state aid, should not the entire £19 million be learn that cruises from Liverpool might reasonably be repaid? expected to head in that direction as well. Caroline Nokes: I thank my hon. Friend for making Southampton has been shortlisted at the world travel that point, and for standing up for the cruise business in awards for the past four years, and I am pleased to see Dover. He makes an interesting point, which I will that it is nominated again for 2012. I have no doubt that move on to later. the other ports shortlisted this year, which range from I have an unashamed loyalty to my home port of Las Palmas in Gran Canaria to Stockholm in Sweden, Southampton, the second-largest cruise port in Europe are all extremely concerned about the state aid to the and the embarkation point of a cruise voyage for 720,000 Liverpool cruise terminal, which could have a very passengers a year. Southampton is not a port that is detrimental effect on the business they have worked so afraid of competition. It is not afraid to invest private hard to attract. It is a market that continues to expand, money to provide the facilities required for a thriving as one in every eight British package holidays sold is a and expanding cruise business. As port director Doug cruise. Morrison, who has taken the time to be here today, has said on more than one occasion: Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab): I “We believe in fair competition. We do not fear Liverpool and congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. She competition, but it is simply not right.” has made a compelling case about the importance of Of course, that is what our debate is about: ensuring EU rules in this case. I am sure that she will be aware of that competition in the cruise industry is on an equal the recent statement by Commissioner Almunia, who footing, and that a leg-up to one port is not an iceberg said that he has reminded the British Government to another. “of their obligation to comply with EU state aid rules.” European competition rules on state aid are clear. Does the hon. Lady agree that this is not a matter where The European Commission website devotes a considerable the Minister can simply say that it is down to the number of words to explaining them. Why does that European Commission in Brussels? He has a personal 319WH Cruise Market (Competition)4 JULY 2012 Cruise Market (Competition) 320WH

[Mr John Denham] Tyne, where investment worth £100 million has been put in over the past 10 years, and Harwich, where there responsibility to ensure compliance with the rules, which has been significant investment since 1998, when it means taking action to prevent Liverpool from breaking joined the Hutchison Port Holdings Group. Throughout them. the country, as evidenced by hon. Members today, large private investment has been put into both freight and Caroline Nokes: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for passenger-focused ports. that comment. When I conclude, I will ask the Minister to work with his colleagues in the Department for Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): Like my Communities and Local Government on that very subject. colleagues, I congratulate the hon. Member for Romsey Is the support selective? Does it confer an advantage and Southampton North on securing this important on specific companies, parts of industries, or on companies debate. Surely, fairness is an important consideration in specific regions? Yes, again. No other port operator, when talking about private investment. State aid clearance whether ABP, Hutchison or the port of Tyne, has is crucial. We hope that the Minister will assure us that received that sort of assistance for their cruise facilities. fairness will be the key in this matter. They have had to invest in their facilities themselves using private capital, just as they should in a free and Caroline Nokes: The hon. Lady is correct. I commend fair market. her on the extensive work that she has done on the Has competition been distorted or might it be in subject. She hits the nail on the head: state aid and future? We can fairly safely respond to that one. In fairness are what matters. requiring Liverpool city council to get state aid clearance from the European Commission prior to commencing Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Before my turnaround cruises, the Government appear to endorse hon. Friend gets back into her stride, does she agree that view. However, what has happened in Liverpool? It that good faith, as well as fairness, should come into has started anyway. The European Commission states account? It was revealed, as a result of a freedom of that if that has happened, the Commission must disallow information request, that Liverpool city council resisted the support unless it is shown to be compatible with the pressing for a turnaround facility at the outset common market. “due to advice that there could be state aid complications which could prevent the terminal being built at all.” Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Would the hon. Lady care to comment on what appear to be The key words are: further proposals by Liverpool for a permanent terminal “Their approach was to build as a port of call facility and by investing £23 million, including a further £10 million address turnaround later.” of possible public subsidy? I understand that that was It seems that it was using a Trojan horse tactic and not discussed with the Department for Transport when acting in very bad faith. competition was first raised. Does she consider that it indicates a possible permanent arrangement as far as Caroline Nokes: My hon. Friend makes an excellent distortion of trade is concerned? point. It is partly about good faith and trusting that the port of Liverpool and Liverpool city council will abide Caroline Nokes: The hon. Gentleman makes an by conditions and rules that are set for them. important point. We are not just talking about £21 million of public money, but future moneys, including the By 2008, Liverpool city council had launched its first £10 million he mentioned, for a permanent turnaround attempt to lift the conditions, and the conclusion, after facility that, in my view and that of several other hon. a detailed assessment by the Department for Transport, Members across the country, will have a permanent was that the change of use to turnaround cruises would distortion on the cruise market. have an To relate some of the history, as the Minister is well “unfair and adverse effect on competition between Liverpool and aware, the city of Liverpool cruise terminal was built other cruise ports. It would be unfair to allow one port to benefit when competitors have found, or would have to find, private using £19 million of public money on the explicit condition money to achieve the same objective.” that it would not compete with other ports that had invested their own money to build similar facilities. And so to today. The Government have decided, “based on independent advice”—even though that advice Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the is from First Economics, a consultancy that freely admits hon. Lady on bringing this matter to the Chamber. We it is not expert in either competition or the cruise all have constituencies where cruise ships bring benefits. industry—that they will withdraw their objection to People come to Belfast and then go by bus to enjoy the removing the funding condition and Liverpool being scenery and history of the Strangford area. Does the used for turnaround calls, provided Liverpool repays hon. Lady feel that we need—perhaps the Minister will either £8.8 million upfront or £12.6 million over 15 years. drive it—a UK or Great Britain strategy that involves None of the European regional development fund money all regions to ensure that competition is fair and that we would have to be paid back, but—this is crucial and all gain advantage from cruise ships? goes back to the good faith argument—state aid clearance from the European Commission would have to be secured. Caroline Nokes: Of course, the existing port strategy makes a very clear point about the need for fair competition Charlie Elphicke: Does my hon. Friend agree that and a level playing field. what is happening is astonishingly high-handed? The When talking about ports that have invested their project has gone ahead regardless, without state aid own money, I could mention Southampton again, but clearance having been obtained. I note that no Member there are many other examples, such as the port of of Parliament representing Liverpool is in the Chamber. 321WH Cruise Market (Competition)4 JULY 2012 Cruise Market (Competition) 322WH

Caroline Nokes: I thank my hon. Friend for mentioning The most pertinent statement in the letter is that any that. I was about to move on to that point. penalties that are subsequently levied would fall upon Liverpool city council and will not be recovered from Within one week of the Government’s making their the Government. announcement and prior to having even sought, let alone secured, European clearance under state aid rules, As Andrew Carnegie once said: the port of Liverpool accepted its first turnaround “And while the law of competition may be sometimes hard for cruise, which visited France, Guernsey and the Scilly the individual, it is best for the race”. Isles. A quick inspection of the cruises scheduled for the Are any hon. Members suggesting that Liverpool would coming year reveals a number of cruises to the Canaries, not survive if obliged to refund all the public moneys it a focus on the Baltic and various other destinations. has received? Not a bit of it. If the business model is Whatever else that was, it certainly was not playing by good and if the figures stack up, the operators of the the rules of war so eloquently described by Thomas port of Liverpool should be prepared to do what every Carlyle; it was more like a massive two-fingered salute other port operator in the country has done and put to the Government and to anyone’s idea of fair play. their money where their mouth is. However, we are where we are. As free marketeers, we have to deal in the marketplace where we find ourselves—a marketplace that has become or has the potential to become distorted. David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab): I cannot resist intervening in a debate that brackets South Shields and I call on the Minister to respond to three points. Venice in the same speech. I congratulate the hon. Lady First, I should like him to justify the current inaction on on that. The addition of Trojan horses raises extraordinary the flouting of the conditions laid down for Liverpool prospects. I congratulate her on securing the debate. with regard to the commencement of turnaround calls before state aid clearance was sought or received, and to Does the hon. Lady agree that the uncertainty of the use a suspension injunction to prevent further turnaround current situation will blight a lot of the business cruises until such time as the outstanding issues are development that is taking place around the country? resolved. Secondly, I should like him to support the The port that is of interest to me is the port of Tyne, calls by Members of the European Parliament throughout which has a ferry terminal in North Shields and its the country to the European Commission for Liverpool headquarters in South Shields. It has doubled the number city council to repay the European regional development of cruise ships docking in the past year and there is funding, and to work with his colleagues in the DCLG concern that an elongated, uncertain process will damage to ensure that that goal is achieved. Thirdly, I should the business investment planning that it is trying to do. like him to ensure that the apparent “anything goes” Does the hon. Lady agree that we need some clarity attitude to the use of taxpayers’ money is halted forthwith from the Government to get the sequencing of decisions and that, in these difficult times, the private companies clear and right? that we wish to see lead the economic recovery are not disadvantaged by unfair competition from a state-subsidised operation that appears to have no respect for the rules Caroline Nokes: The right hon. Gentleman is spot on. of competition that I mentioned at the start of the We want certainty and we want a level playing field for debate. private investors, who might otherwise feel nervous and anxious about investing in a number of ports throughout 4.48 pm the country. It is important that they have that certainty from the Government. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning): It is a pleasure to be here, Mrs Brooke. It is the Government’s responsibility to ensure that I should like to get some facts on the record, not only there is fair competition. The Minister will have heard for my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and that hon. Members wish to hear that state aid rules are Southampton North (Caroline Nokes), but to give the not flouted and that original conditions and amended Government’s side. agreements are adhered to. As I said, within a week Like my hon. Friend, I am keen on competition, Liverpool had started turnaround calls without having because I am a free marketeer as well. I am also keen, as made any effort to ensure that it had clearance to do so. a Minister, to consider in detail a request made by The European Commission is in contact with the anybody anywhere in the United Kingdom. That is not United Kingdom authorities and has reminded them of what happened in 2008. The right hon. Member for their obligations to comply with EU rules. The Commission South Shields (David Miliband) knows full well that has written to the United Kingdom requesting information when a request was submitted in 2008, it was dismissed to assess the change in use of European regional quickly. I have not seen any legal advice instructing the development funding. Should the conditions of the Government that it would be illegal for them to look at original grant offer no longer be complied with, recovery the matter. Certainly, my legal advice, when Liverpool of that grant may be necessary. city council said that it would like to start turnaround, was not that I could not look at that. As a free marketeer, A letter dated 8 June 2012, from the head of the the Minister for the whole United Kingdom, and a Tory ERDF closure team at the Department for Communities MP, here I am defending Liverpool. That is an interesting and Local Government, states: anomaly. Lord Heseltine would be proud of me.

“DCLG recognises that the commencement of turnaround It is clear that we were open and transparent all the operations in advance of State Aid clearance from the Commission way through; I will come back to how we achieved that. may result in financial penalties if the Commission concludes that I met the operators of Southampton port—and Members there is unlawful State Aid.” from across the House—on more than one occasion to 323WH Cruise Market (Competition)4 JULY 2012 Cruise Market (Competition) 324WH

[Mike Penning] Mr Denham: Will the Minister give way? explain things exactly. In a democratic society that Mike Penning: If the right hon. Gentleman could believes in a free market, any request should be looked bear with me, I will give way in a moment. at fairly by a Minister of the Crown. I looked at the Looking at the situation from my point of view, have request made by Liverpool city council, and I asked my we been open and completely honest about what we did officials what the procedures would be, what powers I and the process? I believe we have. Is Liverpool doing had, and what powers were not in my hands. It was what I asked it to do? No, because it has not paid the obvious that I had the power to look at the request, so money back and we do not yet have state aid clearance. we consulted widely, and got submissions from all parts Do I have the power to stop Liverpool? The answer is of the House and across the country on what should no. Would I really want to? If the European Commission happen. The key thing that I got back from the submissions declares the payment to be incorrectly done state aid—my was the point about fairness; that needs to be in whatever legal advice is that it is not—Liverpool would have to we do. pay the moneys back. Liverpool, however, has indicated I looked at what I could do about the two separate that it will pay the money back. The words of the then payments made to Liverpool when it got the grants. leader of Liverpool city council, now the mayor, were, First, I asked whether I or anyone in the UK had the in effect: “We will pay back what you ask us to pay power to ask for the regional development grant to be back.” repaid. The answer was no; it is a Commission issue, for the Commission alone to deal with. Mrs Glindon: Will the Minister give way? Mike Penning: Will the hon. Lady bear with me for a Dr Julian Lewis rose— second, because two other colleagues have tried to intervene as well? I have been given only 10 minutes Mike Penning: I will continue for the moment, because to sum up the debate and, with so many people present, I am conscious of the time, and I want to cover many of we could have done with a little longer. the points made. If I have time at the end, I shall come The key for me is whether the effect on other ports back to my hon. Friend. and other incomes around the country will be dramatic. The issue is being looked at by the Commission, and I have seen no evidence for that yet. At the European it is for it to decide. What was in my power was the cruise conference, I spoke to the representative of a ability look at whether Liverpool had to pay back the cruise operator that does not operate here at the moment, full UK part of the grant, whether there was any but will put 22 cruises in next year. I asked, “Would you depreciation because of the length of time, and whether be doing this at any other port in the UK?” The answer interest would be added. My Department made an was no. I had to take that at face value. Will there be evaluation, and Liverpool asked to pay £5.3 million as a such a dramatic effect? I do not honestly think so. The lump sum, which I rejected. The assumptions of my Government have been genuine and honest about how officials were that the amount should be about £8 million much pain there should be, and Liverpool city council —we ended up with a figure of £8.8 million. To ensure will have to step up to that and be as honest and open that I was seen to be impartial, I asked for some independent with us, and with its own electorate, as we were with it advice on how much money should be repaid. My hon. on what will have to be paid back and when. Also, Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North should it have gone ahead without state aid approval? came up with the right amount, which was £8.8 million, No, it should not have done. or £12.6 million if phased. That is almost identical to the figures that the modelling came up with, after consideration Dr Julian Lewis: With regard to the European money, of how other repayments were made. are the Government in a position to make representations to the European Commission on the matter? If the I made that decision, and put it to Liverpool that it Government think that the Commission is unlikely to would have to pay those moneys back. As yet, Liverpool ask for the money back, does that not suggest that the has not indicated how it will pay that—in stages, or in Commission acted in a distorting and anti-competitive one lump sum. The assumption—that is all it is—is that way when making the money available in the first place? it will be a one-stage payment. As yet, Liverpool has not indicated to the Department for Communities and Local Mike Penning: My hon. Friend is leading me down a Government how it will pay the money, or when it path that I am probably quite happy to be led down. I intends to do so. My officials have been in touch with understand from my legal advice that the Commission DCLG officials, who have been in touch with the city has never asked for any such funding back in other, council to push it on the need for a decision. similar cases. Looking around Europe at subsidies, the It is absolutely the case that state aid has not been Commission would probably rather not open such a cleared yet, but I do not have any power to stop Liverpool Pandora’s box. while we wait for the Commission to act. The key to the situation is that my officials and I as the Minister, Mr Denham: The Minister says that he has no power independently and with no vested interests, have looked to act, but infraction proceedings would be taken against at what can be done. I believe that competition is good, the British Government in the first instance, not Liverpool. and that competition around the country will drive up Ministers have always had the ability to prevent the the excellent cruise market. I was at the European misuse of European regional development fund money, Cruise Council conference in Brussels only last week, if they thought the misuse would leave the Government and even after the terrible Costa Concordia disaster, the liable to action by the Commission. There must be legal market has picked itself up and is moving forward powers for him to take to guard against the risk of again. infraction proceedings by the European Commission. 325WH Cruise Market (Competition)4 JULY 2012 Cruise Market (Competition) 326WH

Mike Penning: The right hon. Gentleman would be on whether it would be in breach of anything. Based on absolutely right if my legal advice was that I would be in the legal advice that I have received, we are not in breach, but my legal advice is that I will not be. He has breach, and that is why I gave Liverpool the option of had far more senior positions in government than me, paying back the £8-plus million, or £12 million over a so he knows that Ministers look at their legal advice period. That is what Liverpool must make up its mind and sometimes ignore it and sometimes accept it. In this about. It should have paid back earlier, and it should case, I decided to accept the legal advice, as it came not have gone ahead as it did. from those more qualified than me. Mrs Glindon rose— Mrs Glindon: I thank the Minister for giving way. In 2009, the Department for Transport specifically said Mike Penning: I need to come to my conclusion. It is that the port of Tyne would be adversely affected by the useful that people understand that the process has been lifting of the restrictive conditions, and that remains the open. I have tried throughout to ensure that competition case, because as a port, we are in direct competition is fair. I know that some colleagues will not like the with Liverpool for some of the cruise destinations. result, and that people in other ports think that there Furthermore, if the Government do not enforce a will be a huge adverse effect. As a Conservative, I suspension injunction, they could be failing to comply passionately believe in competition, and that is what with their EU treaty obligations. this is all about. If the legal advice is that under the formula £8.8 million should be paid back, subject to the Mike Penning: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. Commission’s permission, that is only fair. If I had I have visited the great port of Tyne, and there are great acted in any other way, I would have had a load of plans for it. I was not a Minister in the Department for Liverpool MPs in this Chamber arguing the matter the Transport in 2009, so she will have to speak to her other way around. colleagues about not paying back the subsidy. The key Instead of ignoring the situation, I looked at it carefully, is that there is a formula for how much should be paid and instead of dismissing it straight away, which is what back, because there is a discount for the period of time, happened in 2008, we considered whether we could and interest must be added. That formula produced the increase capacity, create jobs and create more turnaround. figure. The issue is difficult for hon. Members, especially That is what I hope we have done. This debate has been those who represent other ports, and I would probably useful, but I do not think everyone will agree. feel exactly the same if I represented a port. The issue is all about fairness and what is legal. I have sought advice. Any former Minister in this 5pm Chamber knows that we would never have said how Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order much must be paid back without obtaining legal advice No. 10(11)).

53WS Written Ministerial Statements4 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 54WS

The Government made it clear that the proposed Written Ministerial final agreements were their final position. Most of the unions agreed to take the agreements to their executives Statements on this basis, as the best deal that could be achieved through negotiations. Most unions have now consulted their membership Wednesday 4 July 2012 on the final scheme designs for the NHS pension scheme, teachers’ pension scheme and principal civil service pension scheme. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS I am now confirming to the House that the Government will be taking forward legislation based on the position reached in March. Legislation will be introduced during Employee Ownership the current parliamentary Session to take these changes forward, as announced in the Queen’s Speech on 9 May. I can also confirm that the Government have reviewed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, the fair deal policy and agreed to maintain the overall Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb): Graeme Nuttall approach, but deliver this by offering access to public has today published the final report of his review of service pension schemes for transferring staff. When employee ownership. He will launch it at a summit implemented, this means that all staff whose employment hosted by the Deputy Prime Minister. is compulsorily transferred from the public service under “Sharing Success: The Nuttall Review of Employee TUPE, including subsequent TUPE transfers, to independent Ownership” collates the evidence into the benefits of providers of public services will retain membership of employee ownership, identifies the barriers to its uptake their current employer’s pension arrangements. These in the private sector economy and makes recommendations arrangements will replace the current broad comparability to Government and others on addressing those barriers and bulk transfer approach under fair deal, which will and further promoting employee ownership. then no longer apply.The Government will bring forward detailed proposals for implementing this in the autumn. Government will respond to the recommendations Mr Nuttall makes in the autumn. Copies of his report The Government will now focus on implementing the are available in the Libraries of both Houses and on the public service pension reforms and unions are invited to BIS website: http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/business- work with the Government to ensure the changes are law/employee-ownership. introduced as effectively as possible. Mr Nuttall was appointed by my predecessor as Minister for Employment Relations, Consumer and Postal Affairs in January 2012 to provide advice to CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Government on how to make it easier for businesses to adopt employee ownership. S4C Governance

TREASURY The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): My Public Service Pensions Department undertook a public consultation on proposals to amend S4C’s governance arrangements, which ran from 1 February to 4 May 2012. There were 14 responses The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): to the consultation and these will be published on my On 20 December 2011 I set out to the House the main Department’s website shortly. I am grateful to respondents elements of the new public service pension scheme for taking the time to contribute their views. I have designs, following the agreements reached with the majority carefully considered the responses and my conclusions of unions representing health, civil service and teachers’ are as follows. workers Official Report, column 1201. These agreements In relation to the question of whether the selection were based on the Government’s enhanced offer, an 8% panel for the appointment of members to the Welsh value increase, which I announced in the House on authority should include a representative of any body 2 November 2011, Official Report, column 927. providing funding for S4C, I note the concerns raised Departments continued to engage with trade unions that this could undermine S4C’s editorial independence to finalise the remaining details of the new schemes. and the principle of the S4C-BBC partnership. I do not, Those discussions concluded earlier this year, with proposed however, share these concerns and agree with the viewpoint final agreements being reached. My right hon. Friend that it is right and proper for any body involved in the the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster funding and accountability of S4C to be represented on General, the Minister of State, Department for Education, the selection panel. my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Respondents also raised several points and concerns Littlehampton (Mr Gibb) and the Secretary of State for about the method and level of funding S4C and about Health reported the details of these final agreements to governance arrangements generally. I have reflected on the House in written ministerial statements on 12 March these points but do not believe there is anything that 2012, Official Report, columns 1WS, 4WS and 7WS necessitates a change in the provisional agreement reached respectively. between S4C and the BBC in October 2011 or in the 55WS Written Ministerial Statements4 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS current Government position on S4C reform which I will help us to achieve this. The panel’s report shows welcomed at the time and still consider to be a very clearly how forestry has the potential to offer more in positive basis for successful partnership. terms of green products and green jobs, often in rural The consultation sought views on whether it should economies. be a statutory requirement for any body entering into The panel’s work will also inform the future of the an agreement to fund S4C to have an operating agreement public forest estate, a key component of our English with S4C. There were general objections to having an woodland network. I therefore agree with the panel that operating agreement, on the basis that it would undermine the public forest estate should continue to benefit from S4C’s independence. Other respondents favoured an public ownership. A well managed and publicly owned operating agreement, for purposes of clarity, transparency estate provides the sort of public benefits we need to and stability. There was not, however, overwhelming protect—such as access and biodiversity. evidence for the need for the operating agreement to be But I also agree with the International Panel on enshrined in legislation. My view is that there is a clear Forests (IPF) that the way that the estate is cared for need for an operating agreement but I do not believe the and managed should evolve to meet the challenges need for an operating agreement need be enshrined in ahead of us. We need a new model that is able to draw in legislation, at least not in the short term. I am keen to private finance, make best use of Government funding provide for an opportunity for the operating agreement and a means to facilitate wider and more comprehensive currently under consideration by BBC and S4C to work community support. in practice without creating new legislation. I believe The Government will now need time to properly that the BBC and S4C intend to consult publicly on the consider the work of the panel—we will respond more content of this operating agreement later in the summer. fully by January 2013 and I look forward to working If, in the future, it becomes clear that the absence of with the many interested organisations in the development legislation has caused difficulties in the effectiveness of of this response. While we will consider our detailed the operating agreement, then I would be prepared to response we will continue with the general suspension reconsider the need for legislation. Under the Public of sales of estate land. In the meantime, we expect the Bodies Act 2011, there is provision until February 2017 Forestry Commission to continue to manage the estate for an operating agreement to be enshrined in legislation. to deliver the most public benefits. As a result of these decisions, I am pleased to confirm that we have now made the new arrangements for the governance and funding of S4C as set out in the amended BBC agreement (September 2011). FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

Syria ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Forestry and Woodland Policy in England Affairs (Mr William Hague): I would like to inform the (Independent Report) House of the latest developments on Syria, including the meeting of the ministerial action group in Geneva on 30 June. The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I am grateful to The situation in Syria remains grave, with hundreds Bishop James Jones and all the panel members for their of people dying every week, mainly at the hands of the considerable work, detailed consideration and sound Syrian regime. The British Government are at the forefront advice on the future direction of forestry and woodland of international activity aimed at bringing about an end policy in England. I very much welcome their report. I to the violence and making progress on political transition would also like to thank the many groups and individuals in Syria. who contributed to the panel’s thinking in the course of On 30 June, I travelled to Geneva for the first meeting their work—their role has been important. of the ministerial action group on Syria, at the request Forests and woodlands are an important part of our of United Nations-Arab League Joint Special Envoy Kofi heritage and future, and I want to see them make an Annan. The action group held intensive talks on a increased contribution to the environment, economic political transition plan for Syria and agreed that there growth and personal well-being and for everyone to should be a transitional governing body in Syria; that it enjoy the many benefits they offer. We know that people should be made up of representatives of the present feel passionately about forestry and the panel’s report Syrian Government, the opposition and other groups, has given us a vision for how a more vibrant future for formed on the basis of mutual consent. It is our clear England’s woods and forests can be achieved. understanding that this would preclude President Assad. The natural environment White Paper set out our It is important that those Governments present in vision which placed nature at the centre of the choices Geneva now maintain the pace of the political process, our nation must make. By properly valuing nature and hold the Syrian parties—starting with the Syrian today, we can safeguard the natural areas that we all Government—to comply fully with the cessation of cherish and from which we derive vital services. We violence and engage in a genuine political process. stated an ambition for a major increase in the area of To that end we welcome the meeting of Syrian opposition woodland in England, better management of existing members in Cairo on 2-3 July. We commend the Arab woodlands, and a renewed commitment to conserving League and joint special envoy’s efforts to bring the and restoring ancient woodlands. The panel’s advice opposition together, and we will continue to stress the 57WS Written Ministerial Statements4 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS need for the opposition to have unity of purpose. We part or the whole of their area. The late night levy will have increased UK funding for the Syrian opposition fulfil our commitment to allow councils to levy a charge and civil society groups, providing £1.5 million of assistance from those selling alcohol late at night in their area to in this financial year to help provide human rights help contribute towards high policing costs in the late-night monitoring and media training for activists, and other economy. Again, it can be applied flexibly between non-lethal support, including communications equipment. 12am and 6am. These measures will empower local I will attend the next meeting of the Friends of Syria communities to act to achieve a more viable night-time in Paris on 6 July. We will look to the meeting to economy and contribute to the Government’s alcohol endorse the outcome of the ministerial action group, strategy to turn the tide against irresponsible drinking. and reiterate that President Assad cannot form part of The response to the “Dealing with the Problems of any transition in Syria. Late Night Drinking” consultation considers the various We will also call on countries represented at the comments received from a wide range of respondents. Friends of Syria meeting to implement further sanctions Their views have contributed to the development of the against the Syrian regime, building on the 16 rounds of regulations that detail how these policies will be EU sanctions which have included asset freezes and implemented. The first of these regulations have been travel bans on a total of 129 individuals and 49 entities. laid today. In particular, we call on countries to support the EU oil Copies of the response to the consultation will be embargo and to adopt their own embargoes, in order to placed in the House Library and it is also available on maintain the financial pressure on the regime. We welcome the Home Office website at www.homeoffice.gov.uk the EU’s recent decision to strengthen the arms embargo by introducing a specific prohibition on insurance related to arms shipments bound for Syria. We are strongly Serious Organised Crime Agency (Annual Report urging all countries to refrain from providing weapons and Accounts) to the Syrian regime. In parallel, we will take forward work in the United Nations. We continue to believe the UN Security Council must shoulder its responsibilities The Secretary of State for the Home Department to bring about an end to the violence. We will continue (Mrs Theresa May): The Serious Organised Crime Agency discussions on a UN Security Council resolution. We (SOCA) has today published its annual report and will support the efforts of the Human Rights Council accounts for 2011-12. I have laid a copy before the and commission of inquiry in documenting crimes and House and the report will also be made available in human rights violations and abuses that have been the Vote Office. committed, so that those responsible can be held to account. The British Government will continue to focus on the TRANSPORT deteriorating humanitarian situation in Syria. The UK is providing £8.5 million for food, medical care, shelter and other essential support to tens of thousands of Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency people in need in Syria as well as to help refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey and Iraq. In partnership with the UN and international community, we will put pressure The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport on the Syrian Government to match their words with (Mike Penning): In December 2011, I launched a full actions and immediately allow full, unimpeded access consultation around a programme of work to transform for humanitarian agencies. the way that the DVLA delivers its services to customers. The consultation recognised the need to modernise the way these services are delivered and to respond to the growing demand for more flexible public services. HOME DEPARTMENT Today I am announcing that the DVLA will press ahead with its proposals to modernise its services. As a Late Night Drinking result of this decision the DVLA will centralise its enforcement operations by March 2013 and will close its 39 local offices by the end of 2013. While I recognise The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the that a large number of respondents expressed concerns, Home Department (James Brokenshire): My noble Friend I believe that many of these concerns can be mitigated Lord Henley, the Minister of State for Crime Prevention and I am confident that this programme will result in and Antisocial Behaviour Reduction, has today made modern, effective services delivering savings of £26 million the following written ministerial statement: each year. The response to the consultation on the secondary I am also announcing that the DVLA will work to legislation for the late night levy and early morning ensure that customers in Northern Ireland have access alcohol restriction orders has been published today. to the full range of vehicle services available to the rest The late night levy and early morning alcohol restriction of the UK. This will include online taxing of vehicles orders (EMROs) are two alcohol measures in the Police and introducing additional benefits such as retaining Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. The extension registration marks. of EMROs will allow local councils to restrict the sale The DVLA will build on its successes in electronic of alcohol in their local area flexibly between 12am and delivery by providing more transactions online. Local 6am. This is a tool that licensing authorities can use to businesses will act as intermediaries to offer motorists prevent problems in the night-time economy in either a more convenient access to certain DVLA services through 59WS Written Ministerial Statements4 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 60WS at least 4,000 outlets nationwide compared to the current therefore launched a 12-month targeted marketing 39 DVLA local offices. The DVLA will ensure that campaign to actively encourage more people from these alternative service channels will be available before offices under-represented groups to use Access to Work. close. We are focusing on regions where Access to Work is Many of the concerns arising from the consultation not widely used, such as in Wales. We will seek to use related to issues around potential degradation of services the disabled people’s user-led organisation ambassador and uncertainty over the alternative channels. The DVLA for Wales to increase awareness of the benefits of Access has developed its proposals to address these concerns. to Work. We will also work with key stakeholders and Discussions with stakeholders have helped shape these charities in Wales to understand why take-up is lower proposals, which will provide the motor trade and individual and how they can increase the number of disabled motorists with a more efficient and effective service people supported in Wales. through a greater number of convenient, accessible We will use the most appropriate channels to reach channels. these audiences, including human resources departments I am grateful to all those who engaged in the consultation of large employers to increase understanding among process as their views have helped to develop the proposals those with mental health conditions and user-led in a way that can ensure customer needs are met. organisation ambassadors. We will also work with small Today, I am publishing a package of documents, and medium-sized enterprises to promote Access to including an impact assessment and a formal response Work within organisations that may not be aware of to the consultation. These documents provide more how it can help them recruit or retain a disabled person. detail of the future services and will be available on the I am also announcing today some changes we are DVLA website and in the Library of the House. making to help young people through Access to Work. I am committed to maintaining or enhancing current From the autumn Access to Work will be available to service levels for all motorists and the DVLA will support young disabled people undertaking voluntary continue to work with stakeholders to support their work experience under the youth contract. This change transition onto new channels. will help thousands of young disabled people take their first significant step towards employment by supporting them to benefit from a voluntary work experience placement WORK AND PENSIONS over the next three years. We will also do more to raise awareness of Access to Access to Work Work among young people in education. Our targeted marketing campaign will focus on this group by working The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work with careers advisors to raise the programme’s profile, and Pensions (Maria Miller): This Government are and working with charities and other organisations committed to ensuring that the protected budget for involved in supporting young people as they move out disability employment helps more disabled people into of secondary education. work. Looking more widely across Government, from autumn Access to Work provides support for transport to we will support the Department for Education’s supported work, support workers and specialist adaptations and internships for 16 to 25-year-olds with the most complex equipment over and above that which is a reasonable learning difficulties or disabilities. We will ensure that adjustment under the Equality Act. It can provide Access to Work provision is in place to support young essential support not only for people with physical people accessing the supported internship trials, enabling impairments but also for people with learning disabilities them to receive a seamless package of support as they and mental health conditions. move from education into employment where their internship results in the offer of a job. We know that Access to Work is a highly effective programme which currently helps around 35,000 disabled These changes are the first steps in our programme to people in work each year. Liz Sayce’s review of specialist ensure that Access to Work is expanded to help more disability employment provision highlighted Access to people, including young people. Work’s effectiveness. However, she also called it the On 7 March I confirmed that we would be accepting “best kept secret in Government”. We do not think it is all of Liz Sayce’s recommendations on Access to Work, right for Access to Work to be a hidden success and subject to further co-production with disabled people expanding, strengthening and modernising this programme and employers to ensure that we get these right. We will make work and choice of work possible for many have already started work to implement some of the more disabled people. more straightforward changes such as strengthening the We have already announced an extra £15 million for pre-employment eligibility letter and introducing a stronger Access to Work and plans to launch a targeted marketing triage system of Access to Work applicants. Today I am campaign. Today I am announcing more about the announcing that we have established an expert advisory marketing campaign and other key changes to improve panel to consider Liz Sayce’s other recommendations the programme so that it can support more disabled and advise the Department on the best way to take people into work. them forward. We are building awareness with individuals who could But we want to go further than this. We want considerable benefit from Access to Work and employers looking to modernisation of Access to Work. So we will also be recruit or retain a disabled person. We know that certain asking the panel to make its own recommendations groups of disabled people, such as those with mental on how to significantly improve the programme. It will health conditions and those aged 16 to 24 do not benefit consider fundamental questions such as alternative delivery from the programme as much as they could. We have options and how to improve the programme on an 61WS Written Ministerial Statements4 JULY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 62WS operational level to make it more efficient. The panel This programme of work—from protected budget to will report on these fundamental questions in the new dramatic expansion—represents the most radical review year. of Access to Work in the programme’s history and I have asked Mike Adams OBE to lead the panel. reflects the Government’s commitment to build on Liz Mike has a wealth of experience working for disability Sayce’s work and deliver disability employment support organisations and I look forward to working with him fit for the 21st century. on this important task.

645W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 646W Written Answers to Government Procurement Card Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Communities and Local Government on which dates his Department has published Government procurement card spending over £500 since May 2010. [113357] Wednesday 4 July 2012 Robert Neill: This Department is at the forefront of transparency in Whitehall. Since August 2010 my Department has been publishing details of all transactions WOMEN AND EQUALITIES for goods and services of £500 or more, matching the level required of councils. Mental Health Spend on the Department’s Government Procurement Cards was £70,835 in 2011-12, compared to £321,076 John Pugh: To ask the Minister for Women and in 2009-10. The Department has taken a series of steps, Equalities what steps she is taking to promote good including greater transparency, to improve financial mental health and well-being within her Department. controls on Government Procurement Card spending [114679] and I refer the hon. Member to the answers given on 12 January 2012, Official Report, columns 386-87W Official Report, House of Lords Damian Green: The Home Office is a signatory to the and 12 January 2012, , Charter of Employers which is part of the Mindful columns WA107-108. Employer initiative which is aimed at increasing awareness The Department routinely publishes Government of mental health at work. In addition to this, the Home Procurement Card expenditure on the DCLG website. Office has a national programme of mental health This data has been published on the following dates: training for managers which increases awareness of mental health and educates managers on understanding Date published Period and managing mental health in the workplace. 26 January 2012 1 April 2009 to 11 May 2010 The Home Office has introduced a Wellbeing Framework 28 February 2011 12 May 2010 to 31 January 2011 to promote the wellbeing of staff at work. Several 3 June 2011 February to April 2011 initiatives are programmed throughout the year in support 26 July 2011 Expenditure for May 2011 of wellbeing to improve employee’s knowledge of health, 8 August 2011 Expenditure for June 2011 fitness and lifestyle issues. Information on the Home Office 16 September 2011 Expenditure for July 2011 policy and well-being framework, as well as supporting 4 September 2011 Expenditure for August 2011 guidance and e-learning packages, are available to line 27 October 2011 Expenditure for September 2011 managers and staff on the Home Office intranet. 20 January 2012 Expenditure for October 2011 The Home Office has in place an Employee Assistance 26 January 2012 Expenditure for November 2011 Programme which provides a confidential 24 hour/365 10 February 2012 Expenditure for December 2011 days telephone line staffed by fully qualified counsellors, 2 March 2012 Expenditure for January 2012 to staff and their dependents on a range of issues 28 June 2012 Expenditure May 2012 including mental health. Staff can also contact the Home Office Disability Support Network (HODS) for There were no transactions of £500 or more on confidential advice. In addition the Department may Government Procurement Cards between February 2012 also refer individual cases to its Occupational Health and April 2012. Service provider, where the line manager and the Department need independent medical advice. My Department has also published full details of our Government Procurement Card spend on the Freedom of Information disclosure log of our website:

Date published Period COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT 11 July 2011 2006-11 Empty Property: Bedfordshire 31 May 2011 2008-11 20 May 2011 2010-11

Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent estimate Housing: Expenditure he has made of the number of empty houses in the Mid Bedfordshire area. [115005] John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much his Andrew Stunell: Data on empty homes can be found Department has spent on (a) capital and (b) revenue in the Department for Communities and Local Government expenditure on housing in each region in England in live tables on dwelling stock. Live table 615 shows each of the last five years. [115018] empty homes by local authority district: http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Andrew Stunell [holding answer 3 July 2012]: The housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/stockincludingvacants/ Department does not currently collect actual spend livetables/ data on a regional basis. 647W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 648W

Departmental reports up to and including 2009’s WALES Annual Report and the Core Financial and Performance Tables for 2009-10 contain information on regional Business: Capital Investment spending by function. These are available at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/about/howwework/ Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales corporatereports/reportsaccounts/annualreports/ what estimate she has made of likely growth in business Further analysis would be at disproportionate cost. investment in Wales in 2012. [114939] Public Expenditure Mrs Gillan: Recent figures released by the Office for National Statistics show that business investment in the Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for UK for the first quarter of 2012 rose by £0.6 billion to Communities and Local Government how much funding £30.5 billion (1.9%) when compared with the previous has been spent on (a) homes bonuses and (b) social quarter and has increased by £3.9 billion (14.8%) when impact bonds since their inception. [114776] compared with the first quarter of 2011. These figures are not available on a sub-national level. Grant Shapps: My Department has provided £333.5 Capital Allowances million to date in New Homes Bonus grants to local authorities. This includes rewarding councils for an increase of nearly 137,000 homes between October 2010 and Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales October 2011, and bringing a further 22,000 back into if she will assess the effect of reductions in capital use. The total to be distributed in 2011-12 and 2012-13 allowances on the Welsh economy. [114938] will be £631.2 million. Mrs Gillan: The capital allowances changes announced The Ministry of Justice launched the world’s first at Budget 2010 formed part of a wider package of social impact bond in 2010, aiming to reduce reoffending reforms to the corporate tax system and contributed to among short-sentence prisoners released from Peterborough financing the reductions in the main rate of corporation prison. The return for investors will depend on the tax and small profits rate. degree of success in reducing reconvictions, up to an overall cap of around £8 million. The results for the Construction first cohort will be known in 2014. The Department for Work and Pensions is supporting Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales further social impact bonds under its Innovation Fund, what assessment she has made of the effect of the targeting disadvantaged young people and those at risk recession on the construction industry in Wales. [114940] of disadvantage. Six social investment projects have so far been selected for support. The available funding is Mrs Gillan: The Regional Labour Market Statistics up to £30 million over three years from 2012. released by the Office for National Statistics in June 2012 show an increase of 1,000 workforce jobs in the Public Expenditure: Bedfordshire construction industry in Wales between March 2011 and March 2012. Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for The longer term trend for the index of production Communities and Local Government how many (a) and construction for Wales in the quarter 4 2011 statistical homes bonuses and (b) social impact bonds have been release from the Welsh Government shows a rise in issued in the Mid Bedfordshire area. [114777] output of 5.8% when comparing the latest four quarters compared to the previous four quarters. Grant Shapps: New Homes Bonus is paid to local authorities. The Mid-Bedfordshire parliamentary Disability Living Allowance constituency contains parts of both Bedford Unitary Authority and Central Bedfordshire Unitary Authority. Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Details for these are given in the following table. It is if she will estimate the average change in the level of not possible to disaggregate New Homes Bonus funding benefits for disability allowance claimants in Wales up by ward. to 2015. [114947]

£ 1 Maria Miller: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Authority 2011-12 2012-13 the Department for Work and Pensions. Bedford UA 1,087,251 820,482 Benefit expenditure forecasts, which include disability Central Bedfordshire 1,120,673 902,250 living allowance, are produced only at Great Britain UA level; these are published at: Total 2,207,924 1,722,732 http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/ 1 To date index.php?page=expenditure This represents payments to date. The total allocations Disability living allowance is uprated by consumer to be received in 2012-13 are: £2,640,145 for Bedford prices index (CPI). Unitary Authority, and £2,903,284 for Central Bedfordshire Unitary Authority. Hotels While none of the social impact bonds so far established by Government operate in the Mid Bedfordshire area, Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales the Cabinet Office is promoting the development of how many times she has required overnight accommodation more social impact bonds in central and local government. in Wales in her official role since May 2010. [114956] 649W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 650W

Mrs Gillan: I have required overnight accommodation (2) if she will assess the effect on the Welsh economy in Wales around 50 times. This is often to attend early of public sector job losses up to 2015. [114937] morning meetings or where it is more practical to travel the evening before because of the distances involved. Mrs Gillan: The Office for Budget Responsibility has made public sector employment predictions for the UK Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales based on macro-economic data and at present there are how much her Department has spent on hotel no sub-national figures available. accommodation in Wales since May 2010. [114957] Social Rented Housing Mr David Jones: The Wales Office has spent £17,322 on hotel accommodation in Wales since May 2010. The Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Department has offices in both London and Cardiff, how many social housing tenants there are in Wales and staff frequently have to travel to Wales and London aged between 16 and 24 years. [114946] for early morning meetings. In terms of overall spend on hotel accommodation, between 2010 and 2012 the Mrs Gillan: This is a matter for the Welsh Government. Wales Office has made savings of over £27,000 compared Social Security Benefits to the previous two years. Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Income Tax how many people in Wales she estimates will be affected by the Government’s proposals for welfare reform. Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales [114944] (1) what proportion of workers in Wales will pay a reduced level of income tax as a result of the reduction Mrs Gillan: Detailed information on the impact of in the additional rate; [114901] specific reforms being taken forward through the Welfare (2) what discussions she has had with ministerial Reform Act is available at the following link: colleagues on the effect in Wales of the decision to reduce http://www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/welfare-reform/legislation-and- the additional rate of income tax; [114902] key-documents/welfare-reform-act-2012/impact-assessments- and-equality/ (3) what assessment she has had made of the effect of reducing the additional rate of income tax on the Strategic Defence and Security Review Welsh economy. [114903] Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Mrs Gillan: I have regular discussions with ministerial (1) what recent assessment she has made of progress colleagues on a range of issues affecting taxpayers in towards the objective in her Department’s business Wales including the decision to reduce the additional plan to represent Welsh interests in the implementation rate of income tax. of the Strategic Defence and Security Review; [114925] Projections of the number of higher and additional (2) what assessment she has made of the potential rate taxpayers for Wales up to 2012-13 are published on effect on Wales of the implementation of the Strategic the HMRC website in table 2.2 at: Defence and Security Review; [114926] http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/menu.htm (3) how many meetings she has had with ministerial These figures show that there are an estimated 5,000 colleagues on the potential effects of the implementation additional rate income taxpayers in Wales in 2012-13. of the Strategic Defence and Security Review on Wales. Introducing the additional rate of income tax is estimated [114927] to have reduced the UK GDP by between 0.2 and 0.3%. No assessment has yet been made on a sub-national Mrs Gillan: I have regular discussions with ministerial level. colleagues about defence matters in Wales. The Strategic Defence and Security Review is part of a continuing Inflation: Standard of Living process to deliver a sustainable defence programme for the future. Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales The Wales Office works on an ongoing basis to what assessment she has made of the effect of inflation ensure Welsh interests are fully taken into account by on the living standards of people in Wales in the last the Ministry of Defence, for example in areas such as 18 months. [114953] the decision that was taken confirming that 160 Brigade would remain in Brecon following last year’s Defence Mrs Gillan: Despite the difficult conditions inflation estate and basing plans review. is falling. CPI inflation, as the hon. Gentleman will be Taxation aware, fell for the second month running to 2.8% from 3.0% in April. This will improve the living standards of the people of Wales. Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what assessment she has made of the effect on the average family in Wales of tax and spending changes Redundancy: Public Sector taking effect from April 2012. [114954]

Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Mrs Gillan: We have given a commitment to make the (1) how many public sector jobs she expects to be lost first £10,000 of income free from income tax and announced in Wales up to 2015; [114935] a further increase to the personal allowance of £1,100 in 651W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 652W

April 2013 that will take 95,000 of the lowest paid Welfare Tax Credits workers in Wales out of tax altogether We are uprating child tax credits so that families see an increase of £135 Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales per child this year, in addition to the £180 per child over how many households in Wales will no longer be eligible inflation families received last year. for tax credits as a result of changes proposed by the We have also cut fuel duty and scrapped the previous Government. [114955] government’s escalator meaning that average pump prices are approximately 10p per litre lower than they would Mrs Gillan: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the answer be under the previous Government’s plans. given by the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury, my All of these tax and spending changes will deliver real hon. Friend the Member for South West Hertfordshire benefits to families across Wales. (Mr Gauke), to the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas), on 23 April 2012, Official Report, column 610W. Taxis

Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales HOME DEPARTMENT how much her Department has spent on taxis and hire cars since May 2010. [114958] Asylum Mr David Jones: The Wales Office has spent £8,292.74 on taxis and hire cars since May 2010, of which £6,821.09 Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for the was for access to work for disabled staff members. The Home Department what steps she has taken to ensure balance was for staff travelling very early in the morning that (a) failed asylum seekers and (b) refugees have or late in the evening when public transport was not access to adequate accommodation, food and other available to or from the station. essential items whilst in the UK. [113575]

Unemployment Damian Green: The support available to failed asylum seekers under section 4 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 includes the provision of accommodation and Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales a weekly allowance to obtain food and other essential what the change has been in the level of (a) unemployment, items. Refugees can access the mainstream benefits (b) youth unemployment and (c) long-term youth system on the same terms as British citizens and other unemployment in Wales since May 2010. [114933] permanent residents. Mrs Gillan: Claimant count unemployment in these Asylum: Children categories has risen since May 2010. However, we have seen a welcome fall in the levels over recent months. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps she is taking to ensure VAT that children do not become destitute as a result of having financial support withdrawn in the event of a Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales failed application for asylum. [113574] what representations her Department has received from organisations in Wales on the changes contained Damian Green: Support is not withdrawn in the in the VAT: Addressing Borderline Anomalies circumstances described. Asylum seekers with children consultation document. [114906] are supported by the UK Border Agency under section 95 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. Eligibility Mr David Jones: The Wales Office received to this support lasts until they leave the United Kingdom representations from a number of individual caravan or they are granted leave to remain and can access the parks and park owners in Wales as well as the National mainstream benefits system. Unaccompanied asylum Caravan Council, Mid Wales Tourism and the Wales seeking children are supported by local authorities Tourism Alliance in respect of the changes to VAT on irrespective of their immigration status. the sale of static caravans proposed in the consultation. In addition, the proposed changes to VAT on improvements Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for the to listed buildings were also raised by one correspondent. Home Department whether her Department monitors I subsequently had a meeting with the Economic Secretary the numbers of all asylum-seeking and migrant to the Treasury, my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich children living in poverty. [113576] North (Miss Smith), when I reflected those views expressed. Damian Green: There are no such monitoring Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales arrangements. All asylum seeking children have access what assessment she has made of the effect on the to support if they need it. The support is provided by Welsh economy of the increase in the standard rate of the UK Border Agency if they are with their parents or VAT. [114952] by local authorities if they are unaccompanied. Other migrant children have to satisfy the immigration rules in Mrs Gillan: The increase in the standard rate of VAT order to enter the United Kingdom, including requirements was an important element in the deficit reduction strategy. that their families can support them without recourse to No assessment of the effects of this increase have been public funds. The Children Acts also act as a safeguard made at a sub-national level. in circumstances where the child’s welfare is at risk. 653W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 654W

Council of Europe Convention On the Protection of Essex Police: Sick Leave Children Against Sexual Exploitation and Sexual Ab Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many days sickness absence Home Department what assessment she has made of were recorded in Essex police force (a) in total and (b) the extent to which the UK is compliant with Article per officer in each of the last three years for which (a) 25 and (b) 38 of the Council of Europe Convention information is available; and if she will make a statement. on the Protection of Children against Sexual Exploitation [114774] and Sexual Abuse. [114768] Nick Herbert: The information collected by the Home Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 2 July 2012]: As Office is in terms of contracted hours lost to sickness. you will be aware, officials across a number of Government These data are provided within the table, together with Departments are currently considering the steps that hours per officer for Essex police officers, in the three would be required to ratify and implement the Council years to 2010-11. of Europe Convention, including the extent to which Number of contracted hours lost to sickness and contracted hours lost the UK is compliant with all of the provisions in the to sickness per officer, for Essex police officers, 2008-09 to 2010-111, 2 convention, including Article (a) 25 and (b) 38. Number of Number of contracted contracted hours Crime: Maps hours lost to Number of lost to sickness per sickness police officers officer Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 246,184 3,484 71 the Home Department how many people have used the 2009-10 234,760 3,606 65 CrimeMap website in each year for which figures are 2010-11 153,840 3,577 43 available. [115008] 1 Data are provisional and have not been verified by forces. 2. Short-term sick leave is any period of seven calendar days or less, medium-term is any period of between eight and 28 days, long-term Nick Herbert: Since its launch in January 2011, Police.uk sick leave is any period of more than 28 days. has received more than 50 million visits.

Dispersal Orders EU Justice and Home Affairs

Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many dispersal orders under Home Department which EU measures formerly under section 30 of the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 were the third pillar have not yet been implemented by issued in (a) England and Wales, (b) Nottinghamshire her Department; when such measures are expected to and (c) Ashfield constituency in the last three years. be implemented; and if she will make a statement. [114787] [114081]

James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not hold James Brokenshire: The following Third Pillar measures this information. have not been fully implemented: Council Framework Decision 2003/577/JHA of 22 July 2003 Essex Police Authority on the execution in the European Union of orders freezing property or evidence. Council Decision 2005/211/JHA of 24 February 2005 concerning Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the the introduction of some new functions for the Schengen Home Department what mechanism exists for the public Information System, including in the fight against terrorism. to complain about decisions taken by Essex Police; and Council Decision 2006/228/JHA of 9 March 2006 fixing the if she will make a statement. [114764] date of application of certain provisions of Decision 2005/211/JHA concerning the introduction of some new functions for the Nick Herbert: The public can complain about the Schengen Information System, including the fight against terrorism. decisions taken by the police either to the police force Council Decision 2006/229/JHA of 9 March 2006 fixing the concerned or the Independent Police Complaints date of application of certain provisions of Decision 2005/211/JHA Commission. concerning the introduction of some new functions for the Schengen Information System, including the fight against terrorism. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the Council Decision 2006/631/JHA of 9 March 2006 fixing the Home Department what discussions she has had with date of application of certain provisions of Decision 2005/211/JHA Essex police authority on (a) overspend and (b) concerning the introduction of some new functions for the underspend by the authority since July 2010; and if she Schengen Information System, including the fight against terrorism. will make a statement. [114765] Council Framework Decision 2006/783/JHA of 6 October 2006 on the application of the principle of mutual recognitions to confiscation orders Council Decision 2008/615/JHA of 23 Nick Herbert: The Secretary of State for the Home June 2008 on stepping up of cross-border cooperation, particularly Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for in combating terrorism and cross-border crime. Maidenhead (Mrs May), has not had discussions with Council Decision 2008/616/JHA of 23 June 2008 on the Essex police authority concerning its budget. Management implementation of Council Decision 2008/615/JHA on stepping of budgets is a matter for each individual police authority up of cross-border cooperation, particularly in combating or police and crime commissioner. terrorism and cross-border crime. 655W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 656W

Council Framework Decision 2008/978/JHA of 18 December James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not hold 2008 on the European evidence warrant for the purpose of the information requested. obtaining objects, documents and data for use in proceedings in criminal matters. HM Inspectorate of Constabulary Council Framework Decision 2009/905/JHA of 30 November 2009 on accreditation of forensic service providers carrying Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for out laboratory activities. the Home Department if she will introduce a requirement Future implementation of these measures will be for the new Head of HM Inspectorate of Constabulary considered on a case by case basis. to have experience serving in a police force. [114782]

Gating Orders Nick Herbert: No. There has never been a requirement for the HM Chief Inspector of Constabulary to have Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the been a serving police officer, and there are no plans to Home Department how many gating orders were introduce this requirement. issued by local authorities in (a) England and Wales, (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) Ashfield constituency in Impact Assessments the last three years. [114789] Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not hold Home Department how many (a) directions to leave the information requested. under section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, (b) premises closure orders, (c) crack house Government Procurement Card closure orders, (d) noisy premises closure orders and (e) closure orders under section 161 of the Licensing Act 2003 were issued in (i) England and Wales, (ii) Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for the Nottinghamshire and (iii) Ashfield in the last three Home Department how many procurement card holders years. [114775] in (a) her Department and (b) the Government Equalities Office were (i) paid off-payroll, (ii) employed on a James Brokenshire: The Home Office does not hold part-time basis and (iii) employed as a non-permanent the information requested. employee in (A) 2009-10, (B) 2010-11 and (C) 2011-12. [113348] Independent Police Complaints Commission Damian Green: The number of GPC cardholders Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the who were paid off-payroll, employed on a part-time Home Department (1) how many complaints lodged basis and employed as a non-permanent employee in with the Independent Police Complaints Commission the Home Office including its Executive agencies is as are outstanding (a) three to six months, (b) six follows: months to one year and (c) in excess of one year after they were submitted; and if she will make a statement; Number of GPC [113643] Number off cardholders (2) what recent discussions she has with the Independent GPC Number GPC employed as a Police Complaints Commission on the time taken to cardholders cardholders non- paid off- employed on a permanent deal with complaints lodged by members of the public; Financial year payroll part-time basis employee and if she will make a statement. [113644] 2010-11 16 103 18 Nick Herbert: The Home Office does not hold this 2011-12 4 88 11 information. These matters are for the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC). The IPCC has Information on the number of GPC cardholders written to the Member about the information sought. A employed in the Home Office and its Executive agencies copy of the letter has been placed in the House Library. in 2009-10 is not held centrally and to obtain the information would incur disproportionate cost. The Home Office has regular discussions with the IPCC about its performance. The IPCC’s annual report The Government Equalities Office (GEO) joined the which provides detailed figures on their performance is Home Office under machinery of government changes due to be laid in Parliament in July. in April 2011. Prior to that date no information on GPC cardholders was held. Mephedrone In 2011-12 no procurement card holders in GEO were paid off-payroll, employed on a part-time basis or Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for the employed as a non-permanent employee. Home Department how many formal reviews were carried out before her decision to ban mephedrone. Graffiti [115089]

Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: The previous Government formally Home Department what information her Department consulted the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs holds on the number of defacement removal notices (ACMD) in late 2009 to consider the available evidence issued by local authorities in (a) England and Wales, on mephedrone, and related cathinones. The ACMD (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) Ashfield constituency in advice is available at: the last three years. [114786] http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/acmd1/acmdmephedrone 657W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 658W

A copy has also been placed in the Library of the House. EU Budget Following the ACMD advice, and parliamentary approval, mephedrone was brought under the control Priti Patel: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 in April 2010. how much the UK contributed to the EU in the most recent month for which figures are available. [114656] Press Releases Mr Hoban: After taking account of the UK abatement, the UK’s total contribution to the EU Budget in June Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for was £577,749,731.10. This consisted of two payments the Home Department how many press releases her the first on 1 June (VAT-based and GNI-based Department has issued in the last 12 months. [115495] contributions less the UK abatement), the second on 20 June (Traditional Own Resources). Damian Green: The Home Office has issued 470 press The Government are working hard, both in discussions releases in the last 12 months (1 June 2011-1 June 2012). on the annual EU Budget and elsewhere, to limit UK contributions from the increased levels the previous UK Border Agency Government signed up to. We believe that it is only fair that the EU Budget plays its part in the difficult fiscal consolidation faced by many EU member states. Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what the average cost per full-time Income Tax and National Insurance equivalent member of staff spent by UK Borders Agency on staff allocated to detection and intelligence work was in (a) 2009-10 and (b) each subsequent year for Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to begin further consultation which figures are available. [115076] on options for the integration of the operation of income tax and national insurance contributions. [113674] Damian Green: Average costs per full-time equivalent members of staff are not broken down on the central Mr Gauke: The Government remains committed to personnel system by allocated function in the way described. exploring the potential for the operational integration To determine which staff were involved in detection and of income tax and national insurance contributions and intelligence work over time would not be possible except will provide an update on this work in the autumn. at a disproportionate cost. Further details are available on the Treasury’s website: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/tax_income_nics.htm

Manchester Declaration TREASURY Stephen McPartland: To ask the Chancellor of the Aggregates Levy Exchequer what recent contribution his Department has made to implementation of the 2005 Manchester Dan Rogerson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Declaration. [114820] with reference to the judgement of the European General Court in case T-210/02 RENV of 7 March 2012, (1) Miss Chloe Smith: The Treasury works closely with what plans the Government has to enforce the payment the Cabinet Office on driving forward public service of the Aggregates Levy on the exploitation of aggregates reform, including through the Open Public Services which have previously been outside the Levy; [115208] agenda, through which the Government will provide (2) what plans the Government has to review the regular updates on our progress with the digitalisation operation of the Aggregates Levy. [115209] of public services. The 2005 Manchester Declaration ran until the end Miss Chloe Smith: The European General Court of 2010 and has been superseded at an e-Government annulled the original decision by the European Commission level by the Malmo Declaration signed in November in 2002 that a number of reliefs to the aggregates levy 2010 and its subsequent e-Government Action Plan did not constitute State aid. The British Aggregates (2011-15): Association contended that the levy contained un-notified http://ec.europa.eu/information_society/activities/ State aids in the form of materials which were relieved egovernment/action_plan_2011_2015/index_en.htm for environmental reasons when the tax was introduced in 2002. Motor Vehicles: Insurance It is for the European Commission to make a new decision of whether the levy contains State aid and, if Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer so, whether it is approvable. what assessment he has made of the implications for his Department’s policies of the report from the Office The Treasury keeps all taxes under review. Any potential of Fair Trading on the cost of car insurance; and if he change to the existing provisions within the levy will be will make a statement. [114800] determined through this ongoing review or by the Commission process. Mr Hoban: The Government welcomes and supports In the meantime, the Government will continue to the OFT’s work highlighting the lack of control over collect the levy within the terms of the current legislation. vehicle repair and replacement services in the motor 659W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 660W insurance market. This is another added pressure to Mr Vaizey: While direct marketing is a legitimate business increase motor insurance premiums faced by the insurance activity, unwanted and unsolicited calls about insurance market. We expect the focus of competition between or any other matter can be a nuisance. There are regulations motor insurers to be on providing quality and value to in place that enable consumers to opt out of such calls customers; practices which drive up premiums without by registering with the Telephone Preference Scheme benefitting policyholders are unacceptable. (TPS). The Privacy and Electronic Communications The Government are mindful of the impact of the Regulations (PECR) 2003 provides the legislative current cost of this insurance and has set out measures underpinning for the scheme and the Information to tackle this by addressing the compensation culture, Commissioner’s Office (ICO) has enforcement responsibility reducing legal costs and cutting red tape. In February and considers complaints about breaches. the Prime Minister met with representatives of the In May of last year, the Department for Culture, industry to discuss these issues; agreed measures include Media and Sport (DCMS) increased the ICO’s powers the following: in relation to the regulations, enabling the ICO to issue an industry commitment to pass savings onto customers resulting a fine of up to £500,000 for the most serious breaches. from a Government commitment to reduce the current £1,200 While these measures are available we are aware of the fee that lawyers can earn from small value personal injury rising number of complaints that the current protections claims; are not working as best as they could and we are keen to industry commitment to adjust premiums to reflect any reductions improve them. in legal costs created through the Jackson reforms that will DCMS is discussing the effectiveness of the TPS with reform “no win, no fee” and ban referral fees; and extending the road traffic accident claims process to cover employers Ofcom, who are responsible for the contract, TPS and liability and public liability; and ICO. We are looking at measures to give consumers the Government and insurance industry committed to work better protection and are seeking views on how the together to identify effective ways to reduce the number and current consumer protections can be improved as part cost of whiplash claims. of the Communications Review. We hope that the outcomes of the OFT’s review add to the ongoing efforts to reduce costs for motorists. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Wood Argentina Neil Parish: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign what assessment he has made of the potential effect on and Commonwealth Affairs what representations his the economy if the wood panel industry were to be Department has made to Argentina following its decision displaced by the biomass industry; and if he will make not to honour judgements on debt repayment by the a statement. [114605] International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes and other courts; and if he will make a statement. Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the [114204] Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The wood panel industry makes a valuable contribution Mr Lidington: The Government of Argentina has to the economy and to employment. The publication made no formal announcement that it will not honour “Forestry Statistics 2011” shows that in 2009 the Gross judgments on debt repayment by the International Centre Value Added (GVA) of the wood panel industry was for Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID). Therefore £0.17 billion. the British Government have made no representations A full assessment of the use of biomass, including the to the Government of Argentina on this specific issue. potential implications for the wood panel industry, is The Government believes that all countries should contained in the document UK Bioenergy strategy abide by the obligations to which they have signed up published on 25 April 2012. The Government’s policy is under international treaties, including Bilateral Investment set out as follows; Treaties. This includes payment of compensation awarded “Support for bioenergy should aim to maximise the overall for breaches of bilateral investment treaties, awarded by benefits and minimise costs (quantifiable and non-quantifiable) international arbitration tribunals, including those across the economy. Policy makers should consider the impacts constituted under ICSID. and unintended consequences of policy interventions on the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth wider energy system and economy, including non-energy industries.” Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond The document also presents evidence that (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has publicly stated this Government’s “Optimal GHG (greenhouse gas) scenarios generally involve concerns at the nationalisation of Argentinean energy use of forest for the production of both material products and company YacimientosPetroliferos Fiscales (YPF), reducing bioenergy, with re-use and recycling wherever possible.” ownership by Spanish company Repsol substantially. This is the latest in a series of trade and investment related actions taken by Argentina which are damaging CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT to business interests and will undermine Argentina’s economy by reducing its attractiveness to international Direct Selling investors. Burma Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps his John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Department is taking to tackle the problem of nuisance and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment his phone calls about (a) personal protection insurance Department has made of human rights abuses against and (b) other matters. [114993] the Rohingya people in Burma. [115006] 661W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 662W

Mr Lidington: Despite the positive developments we Manchester Declaration have seen in Burma over the past year, the Rohingya continue to be denied citizenship and remain amongst Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State the most discriminated against peoples in the world. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent The recent inter-communal violence in Rakhine State contribution his Department has made to implementation in western Burma has highlighted both the fragility of of the 2005 Manchester Declaration. [114819] the situation in Burma, and has drawn further and much needed attention to the plight of the Rohingya. Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth had no involvement in the implementation of the Office, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), Manchester Declaration, which was led by the Cabinet issued a statement on 10 June, which expressed his deep Office. concern about the ongoing violence. We remain concerned The i2010 action plan launched by the Declaration about the humanitarian situation in Rakhine state which has been superseded by the Malmo Declaration and the UK and international community will continue to eGovernment Action plan (2011 to 2015) and the broader monitor very closely. Digital Agenda for Europe, for which the Department The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth for Culture, Media and Sport is the lead Department. Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), and the Prime Minister also raised this matter with senior members of the Burmese Government, and met with members of the Rohingya NORTHERN IRELAND community to hear their concerns first hand, during Tourism their respective visits in January and April. Ministers also raised their concerns with Aung San Suu Kyi during her recent visit to the United Kingdom. 9. Jessica Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for Our ambassador to Burma regularly raises the ongoing Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had discrimination of the Rohingya with the Burmese with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on Government, including most recently with the Home providing support for tourism in Northern Ireland. Minister. We regularly speak with Rohingya groups, [114378] and non-governmental organisations monitoring the situation, both inside and outside the country. At the 10. Mark Pawsey: To ask the Secretary of State for Human Rights Council in March we secured a resolution Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had which expressed the need to recognise the Rohingya’s with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on right to nationality, and the urgent need to respect their providing support for tourism in Northern Ireland. human rights. We will continue to raise this issue with the [114379] Burmese Government, with international partners and in international organisations, until the matter is resolved. Mr Swire: I regularly meet the Northern Ireland Minister responsible for tourism. We fully support the Colombia “NI2012: Our Time Our Place” initiative which is confidently putting Northern Ireland on the global Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign tourism map. and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise attacks on trade unionists in Colombia with the Colombian Cross-border Trafficking Government. [114823] Mr Lidington: The Minister of State, Foreign and 14. Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Taunton Northern Ireland what recent discussions he has had Deane (Mr Browne), discussed human rights with President with the First Minister on people trafficked into Northern Santos, Foreign Minister Holguin and Vice President Ireland from the Republic of Ireland. [114384] Garzon during his visit to Colombia in March 2012. Our embassy in Bogota continue to raise our concerns Mr Swire: Although issues relating to Human Trafficking about the violence and intimidation suffered by human are now a devolved matter I have discussed this subject rights defenders, including trade unionists, with the with Mr David Ford, the Minister of Justice in Northern Colombian Government. Our embassy also funded a Ireland on a number of occasions. I have also facilitated study by UN Development Programme last year into a number of meetings on the issue between Mr Ford violence against trade unionists and is following up its and other interested parties, including the Irish Government, recommendations with the Ministry of Labour. which led to the establishment by the NI Executive of an All Party Group on human trafficking. Human rights continue to be an integral part of our dialogue and relationship with Colombia. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s 2011 Human Rights and Democracy Report outlined the important steps that HEALTH the Santos Administration has taken to improve the human rights situation in Colombia, but also that more Abortion remains to be done. We urge the Colombian Government to provide greater protection for human rights defenders Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for and their families, to reduce the length of time taken to Health how many abortion forms returned to his investigate murders and forced disappearances, and to Department (a) did not have the required two doctors’ work with unions and employee organisations to strengthen signatures and (b) were incomplete in each of the last labour relations in Colombia. five years for which figures are available. [114779] 663W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 664W

Anne Milton: The abortion form (HSA1) which requires Departmental officials make every effort to obtain the signature of two certifying doctors prior to an missing data and information. Sometimes this is not abortion, agreeing that there are grounds under the possible for a number of reasons including illness, death 1967 Abortion Act, is not submitted to the chief medical or suspension of the terminating doctor or the doctor officer (CMO). moving abroad. The medical practitioner performing the abortion is required to sign form HSA4 and submit details of the termination to CMO. This includes the names and Accident and Emergency Departments: Greater addresses of the practitioners who provided the certification Manchester on form HSA1. The following table shows the total of missing data items on HSA4 forms for the years 2007 to Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2011: how many patients waited longer than four hours in each accident and emergency ward in (a) Trafford, (b) Certifying and terminating doctor Manchester and (c) Salford (i) in each of the last three Patient information information years, (ii) between January and March 2012 and (iii) between January and March 2011. [114911] 2007 105 325 2008 82 461 2009 29 310 Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is shown 2010 27 31 in the following table. All the trusts mentioned are 2011 40 449 currently achieving the four-hour accident and emergency (A&E) standard on a quarter to date basis.

Number of people waiting over four hours in A&E departments 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-131 2011 2012

Central Manchester University Hospitals NHS 3,686 7,476 9,403 2,279 2,071 3,344 Foundation Trust Trafford Healthcare NHS Trust 1,132 1,770 1,574 n/a 413 356 Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust 1,638 2,242 3,499 883 743 962 University Hospital of South Manchester NHS 2,137 3,640 4,467 1,286 1,043 1,255 Foundation Trust Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS Trust 14,250 12,810 14,668 2,567 3,361 2,182 1 Year to date 2 January to March Notes: 1. Year to date for 2012-13 is up to and including week ending 24 June 2012. 2. The QMAE quarterly return was not collected after September 2011; therefore, the more recent data has been drawn from the A&E weekly return (QSitAE). 3. ‘n/a’ represents figures that are not available. On 1 April 2012, Central Manchester University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust completed the acquisition of Trafford Healthcare NHS Trust. Source: Department of Health QMAE quarterly return (2009-10 and 2010-11 data) Department of Health WSitAE weekly return (2011-13 data)

Cancer The NCIN report, “Routes to Diagnosis”, published in November 2010, examines routes to diagnosis for a Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for range of cancer types by age, sex and deprivation, to Health (1) what plans his Department has to increase highlight differences in relative one-year survival rates. the range of publically available data on cancer that can A copy of the report has been placed in the Library. be analysed by age. [115046] The NCIN is undertaking an extension of the original “Routes to Diagnosis” report. This new analysis will (2) if he will publish data on cancer stage of diagnosis cover three years of cases, allowing trends in the types and routes to diagnosis by age and tumour type; of cancer and levels of routes to presentation to be [115047] understood and addressed. (3) if he will ensure that data collected on women with metastatic and recurrent breast cancer is made All cancer registries are now implementing internal available by age. [115048] changes to achieve the staging performance of the best registry. Registries are on. track to deliver this by the Paul Burstow: In “Improving Outcomes: A Strategy end of 2012. for Cancer” published on 12 January 2011, we said that During 2011-12, we piloted the collection of metastatic information was central to the drive for better outcomes. and recurrent breast cancer data to identify what Through the National Cancer Intelligence Network information could be collated from routine NHS data (NCIN) we are providing commissioners, providers, and cancer registries. In March 2012, the NCIN published clinicians, stakeholders and patients with data about report of the “Recurrent and Metastatic Breast Cancer cancer services and outcomes. Wherever possible, all Data Collection Project Pilot.” This set out the lessons NCIN reports are broken down by equality characteristic learned and recommendations for routine collection of and all new datasets include analysis by gender, socio- data, which is currently underway. A copy of the report economic deprivation and age. has been placed in the Library. 665W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 666W

As we progress with the collection of cancer staging scheme and offer an opportunity for childcare providers data and data on metastatic and recurrent breast cancer to give their thoughts on improving the operation of the data, we will consider how to present this information scheme. for routine publication. We would anticipate that this information would be made available by age in common Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for with other registry based statistical publications. Health how many children have received milk through the Nursery Milk Scheme in each of the last five years. Health: Rural Areas [115196]

Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: The Department does not hold information which officials in his Department exercise a leadership centrally on the number of individual children who have received free nursery milk. The number of children role in relation to rural health. [115169] attending each child care setting varies on a daily basis. Anne Milton: Advice on rural health matters is provided However we can provide details regarding the number by departmental officials to Ministers across the range of milk portions (each a third of a pint) reimbursed. of their responsibilities for the national health service, The following table shows the number of portions public health and social care. The permanent secretary reimbursed in each of the last five years. (Una O’Brien) provides overall leadership for the Number of milk portions (each a Department and is responsible to Ministers for this Financial year third of a pint) reimbursed advice. The Director-General for Social, Local Government and Care Partnerships (David Behan) has the lead role 2011-12 271,246,523 in co-ordinating advice on rural health issues, as part of 2010-11 261,704,703 his responsibility for providing support to Ministers on 2009-10 217,382,567 wider cross-Government health issues. 2008-09 219,964,361 2007-08 206,107,289 Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which Minister in his Department has responsibility for matters relating to rural health. [115170] WORK AND PENSIONS Anne Milton: Responsibility for rural health matters is shared by departmental Ministers across the range of Employment and Support Allowance their responsibilities for the national health service, public health and social care. I represent the Department Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for in bi-laterals with the Department for Environment, Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made of Food and Rural Affairs Ministers on rural health as the average time taken from receipt of an appeal until part of my work on wider cross-Government health the date of the first appeal hearing for employment and issues. support allowance appeals (a) nationally and (b) in East Lothian constituency. [114917] School Milk Chris Grayling: The requested information is not Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for available. Health what steps his Department took to increase the uptake of the Nursery Milk Scheme in each of the last Employment and Support Allowance: East Lothian five years; and what his Department’s target is for take up of the Nursery Milk Scheme in each of the next five Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for years. [115177] Work and Pensions how many people in East Lothian constituency are awaiting decisions on employment Anne Milton: The Nursery Milk scheme reimburses and support allowance appeals. [114918] childcare providers the cost of a third of a pint of milk for children under five years old who attend for two or Chris Grayling: The requested information is not more hours a day. The scheme has been running since available. the 1940s and we believe that awareness of the scheme is high, with over 50,000 childcare providers currently Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for registered with the Nursery Milk Reimbursement Unit. Work and Pensions how many appeals have been upheld The Department provides guidance on its website explaining on employment and support allowance decisions in the way in which the scheme is currently administered. East Lothian constituency since May 2010. [114919] Information about the scheme is also available on the Nursery Milk Reimbursement Unit’s website at: Chris Grayling: Constituency level data is not available. www.nurserymilk.co.uk The Department does not plan to set targets for the Employment Schemes uptake of the Nursery Milk scheme. However, we are currently consulting on a range of options for modernising Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for the operation of the scheme to improve its value for Work and Pensions how many people from the work-related money while ensuring that all under fives who are activity group of Employment and Support Allowance entitled to it, in childcare continue to receive free milk. have volunteered for support through Work Choice The consultation will further raise the profile of the since October 2010. [114675] 667W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 668W

Chris Grayling: Between 25 October 2010 and 31 March process for the personal independence payment and its 2012, there have been 1,120 referrals to Work Choice accessibility for people with autism; [113270] from individuals who were claiming ESA four weeks (2) what steps his Department is taking to ensure that prior to their Work Choice referral, who had been the assessment process for the personal independence placed in the Work-Related Activity Group at their payment will be accessible for people with autism and Work Capability Assessment. other development disabilities. [113272] Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people from the support Maria Miller: The Department has received a wide group of Employment and Support Allowance have range of representations from individuals with autism, volunteered for support through Work Choice since their families and voluntary organisations representing October 2010. [114676] them, both in writing and in meetings. We recently consulted on the draft assessment criteria Chris Grayling: Between 25 October 2010 and 31 March for personal independence payment (PIP) and received 2012, there have been 310 referrals to Work Choice very helpful responses from the National Autistic Society from individuals who were claiming ESA four weeks (NAS), Act Now for Autism, ARChive and Autism prior to their Work Choice referral, who had been Cymru, as well as from a number of individuals with placed in the Support Group at their Work Capability autism and family members of such individuals. Meanwhile, Assessment. officials have had several meetings with NAS to discuss Housing Benefit: Young People the assessment and how it will work for people with autistic spectrum disorders. This included meeting with individuals with autism who had been assessed as part Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work of our testing of the PIP assessment criteria, to learn and Pensions what his policy is on the removal of from their experience. housing benefit for those under 25 years of age. [115204] This engagement is helping to inform our work to ensure that the claim and assessment process is tailored Steve Webb: Those under 25 years of age are subject to the needs of people with autism. Key elements of this to the same housing benefit qualifying conditions as include ensuring that: those aged 25 and over. There are currently no plans to we gather the right information and evidence from individuals change this policy but, like all aspect of the welfare and professionals involved in their care to support the assessment system, this remains under review. process; individuals can have a relative, friend, carer or advocate with Pensioners: British Nationals Abroad them during any face-to-face consultations to reassure and support them; Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for the health professionals who assess individuals are sufficiently Work and Pensions if he will estimate the cost of trained in autism and other mental and cognitive impairments determining the number of pensioners returning to the and have access to more specialist support where needed; UK over the last five years from countries where they claim forms and other materials being sent to individuals are are in receipt of frozen UK pensions. [115082] clear and easily understandable; and those organisations who deliver assessments for PIP work Steve Webb [holding answer 3 July 2012]: We are closely with disabled people and their organisations as they unable to supply this information as these data are not develop their detailed plans for the assessment process. collected. We are currently investigating whether the information would be available by examining our computer systems. However, our initial findings are that this would Remploy incur substantial cost and significant development time to produce. Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Personal Independence Payment and Pensions pursuant to the oral answer to the hon. Member for Wansbeck of 25 June 2012, Official Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Report, column 12, on Remploy, whether the £10,000 and Pensions what arrangements will apply to those funding available to support employee-led proposals is who receive support for mobility costs in the personal per factory or per employee. [115011] independence payment on reaching age 65. [114458]

Maria Miller: Personal independence payment will Maria Miller: As announced on 23 April 2012, Remploy allow a claimant to continue to receive their existing employees who submitted a successful expression of award for as long as they satisfy the entitlement conditions, interest are able to apply for up to £10,000 worth of regardless of any upper age limit. expert advice and support to help them further develop their proposal. This money can be used to get expert Personal Independence Payment: Autism advice and support, including paying for legal and accountancy support and is available for each employee led bid. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what representations he has received When employees are notified that their expression of from (a) adults with autism and their families and (b) interest is successful they will be sent an application voluntary sector organisations about the assessment form and instructions on how to apply for the funding. 669W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 670W

Social Security Benefits basis, but the Department for Transport is taking appropriate steps to promote the sustainable growth of Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the aviation industry in the UK, consistent with meeting and Pensions what his policy is on the introduction of our global and local environmental objectives. regional variation in the benefits system. [115205] Enterprise Zones around airports such as Manchester, Cardiff, Luton aim to generate new businesses and jobs Chris Grayling: The benefit system has always recognised through a combination of fiscal measures and simplified regional variations through the mechanism of housing planning controls. Investments in road and rail access support. to airports—such as Regional Growth Fund awards of £19.5 million, £40 million and £18 million for improvements around Luton, Manston and Robin Hood airports respectively—will promote growth as well as improve HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION the passenger experience. Times of Sittings We intend to publish a sustainable aviation policy framework for UK aviation in July, which will set out Graham Stringer: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, further details of the steps the Department is taking. Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, what estimate the House of Energy Commons Commission has made of the cost to the public purse of the House of Commons sitting in Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for September 2012. [115068] Transport (1) whether her Department has switched its (a) gas or (b) electricity supplier in any of the last John Thurso: The marginal cost of September sittings 10 years; [113456] is relatively low as most operating costs are fixed for the year as a whole and are unaffected by the number and (2) which energy supplier supplies her Department distribution of sitting days. Marginal costs of a two with (a) gas and (b) electricity; [113474] week sitting in September are estimated to be around (3) how much her Department has spent on its (a) £200,000, mainly arising from the production of business gas and (b) electricity bills in each of the last 10 years. papers and Hansard. If the September sitting is an [113505] alternative to sitting on more days at other times, the overall impact across the year will be less. Norman Baker: The Department for Transport procures Major projects being undertaken this summer, notably 95% of its Gas and Electricity from suppliers on the the mechanical and electrical works in the Palace of Government Procurement Services (GPS) Framework Westminster including the corridor works on the Principal for Energy. The table below shows the GPS energy Floor, were planned around the known sitting dates. It suppliers that supply the Department with its (a) gas, is not possible, therefore, to accurately quantify any (b) electricity, and (c) utilities (where we are unable to additional project costs arising from the House sitting identify if this is Gas or Electricity spend). In addition, in September 2012. the table shows spend on some legacy contracts not placed via the Framework for Energy (or its predecessors). The Department will switch from these legacy contracts to GPS suppliers) as soon as possible. TRANSPORT (a) Gas Atos Corona Legacy Energy Contracts Total

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007/08 £374,112 £0 £374,112 Transport pursuant to the answer of 20 June 2012, 2008/09 £612,907 £0 £612,907 Official Report, columns 1013-14W, on Atos, what the 2009/10 £288,328 £0 £288,328 value was of each contract between her Department 2010/11 £493,214 £0 £493,214 and Atos in (a) 2009, (b) 2010, (c) 2011 and (d) 2012. 2011/12 £501,929 £0 £501,929 [115117] (b) Electricity Norman Baker [holding answer 3 July 2012]: I refer EDF Legacy the hon. Member to my answer of 20 June 2012, Official Energy British Gas Contracts Total Report, columns 1012-14W, where estimated let value 2007/08 £7,260,597 £916,572 £1,683,431 £9,860,6001 was given. 2008/09 £26,715,740 £2,248,497 £281,465 £29,245,702 Aviation 2009/10 £20,590,389 £2,938,456 £673,287 £24,202,132 2010/11 £20,673,641 £2,342,832 £2,394,905 £25,411,378 Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011/12 £20,524,183 £2,633,443 £0 £23,157,626 Transport what steps her Department is taking to (c) Utilities promote the growth of the aviation industry in the UK. EDF [114698] Energy/ Corona Legacy British Gas Energy Contract Total

Mrs Villiers: The UK has a strong and successful air 2007/08 £0 £0 £0 £0 transport sector, with an annual turnover of around 2008/09 £0 £0 £0 £0 £26 billion. Airports and airlines operate on a commercial 671W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 672W

(c) Utilities travelling between (a) Warrington Bank Quay station, EDF (b) Rowley Regis station, (c) Codsall station, (d) Energy/ Corona Legacy Wolverhampton station and (e) Guiseley station and British Gas Energy Contract Total (i) London Euston, (ii) Birmingham International and 2009/10 £0 £0 £2,959,476 £2,959,476 (iii) Paris. [113794] 2010/11 £0 £0 £1,190,372 £1,190,372 Justine Greening: High Speed 2 (HS2) will provide The Department does not hold information prior to high capacity, high speed rail links between the North, 2007. the Midlands and London, including a direct link to the 1 The figure for electricity spend in 2007/08 does not include continent via the High Speed 1 line to the channel Highways Agency expenditure for the Roads Programme, which tunnel. The new network will also provide the opportunity is included in the answers for 2008/09-2010/11. to run the existing rail network in a different way, meaning that stations not on the HS2 network itself will High Speed 2 Railway Line benefit in terms of having more, faster or less crowded services. Mr Leech: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport It is too early to make decisions now about detailed what recent assessment she has made of the benefits of service patterns and journey times to specific destinations a highspeed rail network to the north of England. beyond the high speed network in the 2020s and 2030s. I [112951] have received advice from HS2 Ltd on route options for the second phase of the Y network. I am currently Justine Greening: HS2 will transform journey times, considering this advice and I intend to publish it in the capacity and connectivity between the major cities of autumn, together with a Government response setting the North, the Midlands and London, unlocking prosperity out the initial preferred route and station options. and enabling the north of England to fulfil its economic potential. In the autumn, I will publish my preferred Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for route and station options for phase 2 of HS2, and I am Transport if she will estimate the potential journey determined to make progress on this second phase of time saving High Speed 2 will provide for passengers the network as quickly as possible. This will extend the travelling between (a) New Pudsey, (b) Harrogate and high speed network northwards along two legs, with (c) Knaresborough station and (i) London Euston, (ii) stations in Manchester, Leeds, South Yorkshire and the Birmingham International and (iii) Paris. [113853] East Midlands, as well as connecting other major conurbations in the North and in Scotland through Justine Greening: High Speed 2 (HS2) will provide seamless transition onto the existing network. high capacity, high speed rail links between the North, the Midlands and London, including a direct link to the Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Continent via the High Speed 1 line to the Channel Transport (1) if she will estimate the potential journey Tunnel. The new network will also provide the opportunity time saving High Speed 2 will provide for passengers to run the existing rail network in a different way, travelling between Northwich station and (a) London meaning that stations not on the HS2 network itself will Euston, (b) Birmingham International and (c) Paris; benefit in terms of having more, faster or less crowded [113024] services. (2) if she will estimate the potential journey time It is too early to make decisions now about detailed saving High Speed 2 will provide for passengers travelling service patterns and journey times to specific destinations between (a) Lancaster, (b) Fordham and (c) Hoylake beyond the high speed network in the 2020s and 2030s. I station and (i) London Euston, (ii) Birmingham have received advice from HS2 Ltd on route options for International and (iii) Paris. [113048] the second phase of the Y network. I am currently considering this advice and I intend to publish it in the Justine Greening: High Speed 2 (HS2) will provide autumn, together with a Government response setting high capacity, high speed rail links between the North, out the initial preferred route and station options. the Midlands and London, including a direct link to the Continent via the High Speed 1 line to the Channel Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Tunnel. The new network will also provide the opportunity Transport what assessment she has made of the potential to run the existing rail network in a different way, benefits of HS2 for (a) North Wales and (b) other meaning that stations not on the HS2 network itself will parts of Wales. [114077] benefit in terms of having more, faster or less crowded services. Justine Greening: HS2 will support economic growth It is too early to make decisions now about detailed and generate benefits across much of the UK, and these service patterns and journey times to specific destinations benefits will extend beyond the areas directly served by beyond the high speed network in the 2020s and 2030s. I high speed rail. As soon as phase one of the network have received advice from HS2 Ltd on route options for opens, HS2 will benefit passengers from Wales served the second phase of the Y network. I am currently by the Great Western main line, thanks to an additional considering this advice and I intend to publish it in the stop at Old Oak Common providing increased connectivity autumn, together with a Government response setting through links to Crossrail and the Heathrow Express, as out the initial preferred route and station options. well as to HS2. Many passengers from north Wales could benefit from the released capacity HS2 will create Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for on the existing network, although it is too early to make Transport if she will estimate the potential journey detailed decisions now about service specifications in time saving High Speed 2 will provide for passengers the late 2020s and 2030s. 673W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 674W

Susan Elan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for considering this advice and I intend to publish it in the Transport what responses her Department received from autumn, together with a Government response setting Welsh respondants on the consultation on HS2; and out the initial preferred route and station options. what proportion of those respondants were in favour of the development going ahead. [114078] Motor Vehicles: Exhaust Emissions Justine Greening: Over 400 responses from Welsh respondents were received, of which approximately two- Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for thirds were in favour of High Speed 2. Transport how many low-carbon vehicles are registered (a) nationally and (b) in Swindon. [114994] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when she plans that the public consultation on compensation for people living near the proposed Mike Penning: The Department for Transport does not have a definition of ‘low-carbon’ vehicles. Most cars route of High Speed 2 will be held. [114644] first registered after March 2001 have been taxed on the basis of CO2 emissions. Of the 28.58 million cars licensed Justine Greening [holding answer 3 July 2012]: We in Great Britain on the 31 March 2012, 22.86 million of will begin the consultation shortly. the registrations include CO2 emission data and of these, 162,802 were in the band A, the lowest band for Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State emissions with emissions of 100 g CO2 per km or lower. for Transport what consideration her Department has This band includes pure electric cars with no tailpipe given to using a hardship-based scheme in determining CO2 emissions. A table containing the complete breakdown compensation for people affected by High Speed 2. of all licensed cars in Great Britain by the vehicle excise [114645] duty (VED) band at end of each year is available in table VEH0206 at: [holding answer 3 July 2012]: Justine Greening As set http://www.dft.gov.uk/statistics/tables/veh0206/ out in the “Review of Property Issues” published in January 2012, I believe that there is a strong case for Information on the CO2 emissions for other vehicles introducing a new hardship-based property purchase is not held on the DVLA vehicle database. All pure scheme to help individuals and families who through no electric vehicles will have zero tailpipe CO2 emissions so fault of their own have an urgent need to move and would also be classified as low-carbon. cannot do so because of HS2. We will shortly publish The following table provides figures for the total our compensation proposals for consultation. number of band A cars (split into electric and non-electric) and other electric vehicles licensed in (a) Great Britain Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State and (b) Swindon borough council on the 31 March 2012. for Transport what consideration her Department has given to using a property bond solution to determine Swindon borough compensation for people affected by High Speed 2. Body type Great Britain council [114646] Cars—electric 2,899 67 Cars—non-electric 159,903 2,166 Justine Greening [holding answer 3 July 2012]: Ihave Band A looked at this originally and have given it further Buses and coaches— 82 0 consideration. Compensation proposals will be published electric for consultation shortly. Heavy goods 878 0 vehicles—electric Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Light goods 3,740 22 Transport if she will estimate the potential journey vehicles—electric Motorcycles, scooters 1,377 5 time saving High Speed 2 will provide for passengers and mopeds—electric travelling between (a) Poulton-Le-Fylde, (b) West Others1—electric 58,851 198 Kirby, (c) Brighouse, (d) Todmorden and (e) Preston station and (i) London Euston, (ii) Birmingham International and (iii) Paris. [113259] Cars - total electric 162,802 2,233 and non-electric Band A Justine Greening: High Speed 2 (HS2) will provide high capacity, high speed rail links between the North, Total ‘low-carbon’ 227,730 2,458 the Midlands and London, including a direct link to the vehicles Continent via the High Speed 1 line to the Channel 1 The ‘other’ vehicles are mostly registered mobility scooters and Tunnel. The new network will also provide the opportunity milk floats but the category does include some fork lifts, tractors and to run the existing rail network in a different way, other commercial vehicles. meaning that stations not on the HS2 network itself will benefit in terms of having more, faster or less crowded The Department has a definition of ‘ultra-low emission services. vehicles’ which is any vehicle with a pure electric powertrain or tailpipe emissions of 75 g/km of CO or under. It is too early to make decisions now about detailed 2 service patterns and journey times to specific destinations Statistics on the number of first registrations under beyond the high speed network in the 2020s and 2030s. I this definition are published monthly in table VEH0170 have received advice from HS2 Ltd on route options for at: the second phase of the Y network. I am currently http://www.dft.gov.uk/statistics/tables/veh0170/ 675W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 676W

Pay Grade 6 or equivalent grades outside London, in each of her Department’s bargaining units. [115172] John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the current pay (a) minima and (b) Norman Baker: The information requested is provided maxima are for staff at each grade, from AA to in the table below:

DfT© MCA DVLA Highways VOSA DSA VCA GCDA

AA Min £16,169 £13,459 £14,000 £15,989 £14,619 £14,351 £14,460 - Max £16,169 £14,730 £15,200 £15,989 £16,019 £16,711 £16,775 - AO Min £19,426 £15,171 £16,735 £17,260 £17,662 £16,385 £17,125 £21,096 Max £20,355 £19,168 £18,000 £18,314 £19,953 £19,889 £20,135 £21,096 EO Min £22,838 £20,321 £20,235 £20,432 £22,066 £21,348 £21,525 £23,463 Max £25,038 £25,676 £23,320 £22,779 £24,928 £24,687 £26,120 £23,463 HEO Min £27,653 £24,543 £25,880 £28,368 £27,580 £26,051 £26,780 - Max £31,694 £31,006 £29,255 £34,730 £31,070 £30,427 £35,315 - SEO Min £33,516 £31,518 £32,230 £42,396 £34,346 £33,052 £35,520 - Max £39,225 £44,574 £35,900 £48,688 £39,100 £38,400 £43,770 - G7 Min £42,643 £41,161 £43,125 £43,412 £43,960 £39,620 £44,500 - Max £51,781 £52,081 £52,357 £50,846 £50,670 £52,206 £58,170 - G6 Min £52,406 £49,472 £57,855 £56,979 £50,290 £51,305 £58,210 - Max £63,635 £62,595 £63,765 £67,747 £57,966 £63,335 £67,335 -

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Pay maxima increase Transport when was the last full equal-pay audit conducted in each bargaining unit in her Department; DfT(C) Pay maxima for AA, EO, SEO, Grade 7 and Grade and when the next such audit in each such unit is 6 increased 4 years ago (2008) scheduled to be conducted. [115176] Pay maxima for AO and HEO increased 5 years ago (2007) Norman Baker: The Department for Transport carries HA All pay maxima increased in 2010 (3rd year of a out an equality impact assessment on pay annually after 3 year pay deal agreed in 2007) the pay award is implemented. The next assessment will MCA No pay maxima increase in last 3 years (2009, 2010 & 2011) be undertaken following the pay award for 2012/13. DVLA No pay maxima increase in last 2 years (2010 & 2011) John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for DSA No pay maxima increase in last 2 years (2010 & Transport how many full-time equivalent staff in her 2011) Department and the public bodies for which she is VOSA No pay maxima increase in last 3 years (2009, 2010 responsible outside London earn less than (a) £15,000, & 2011) (b) £16,000, (c) £18,000, (d) £20,000 and (e) £25,000 VCA No pay maxima increase in last 2 years (2010 & excluding bonuses and performance related pay. 2011) [115191] GCDA No pay maxima increase in last 3 years (2009, 2010 & 2011) Norman Baker: The requested information is in the following table: Staff Department for Transport Public Bodies John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for <£15,000 167 15 Transport (1) which grades in each of her Department’s £15,001 to £16,000 1623 16 bargaining units outside London have more than (a) £16,001 to £18,000 708 67 50 per cent and (b) 60 per cent of women in them, as £18,001 to £20,000 3790 226 measured as staff in post; [115174] £20.001 to £25,000 5870 655 (2) which grades in each of her Department’s bargaining units outside London have more than (a) 50 per cent John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) 60 per cent of men in them, as measured as Transport in each departmental bargaining unit which staff in post. [115175] grades have not seen an increase in pay maxima in (a) three, (b) four, (c) five and (d) six or more years. Norman Baker: Annual Equality and Monitoring [115192] Reports for each of the Department’s bargaining units outside London can be accessed through the following Norman Baker: The following table shows when the link: pay maxima for each grade in the Department for http://www.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-compliance-with-the- Transport’s bargaining units were last increased: equality-duty/ 677W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 678W

Table 1.6 in each of the annexes in XLS format JUSTICE provides a breakdown of the proportion of female to male employees in each grade below senior servant Members: Correspondence level. Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Thameslink Railway Line Justice when he plans to reply to the letter from the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Hessle of 28 November 2011 concerning a constituent, Transport what assessment she has made of the effect Alan Mackinder of Hessle. [114460] of the introduction of the Thameslink contract on existing train maintenance work at Hornsey depot. [R] Mr Kenneth Clarke: A reply to the letter was sent to [114259] the right hon. Member on 28 June. The first copy of the letter was mislaid. I apologise for the late response. Mrs Villiers: The new fleet of trains being procured Mental Health for Thameslink will be maintained at a new train maintenance facility to be constructed on Coronation Sidings adjacent to the existing train maintenance facility John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice at Hornsey. The existing Hornsey depot will continue to what steps he is taking to promote good mental health be used to maintain non-Thameslink mainline and other and well-being within his Department. [114619] Great Northern commuter and suburban services following the introduction of the Thameslink contract. Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) recognises the importance of mental health and well-being John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for for all MOJ staff. Managers monitor our absence data Transport whether Hornsey depot will continue to be so that they can identify trends such as increases in responsible for train maintenance work for (a) mainline mental health issues and target action appropriately. and (b) other Great Northern services operated by Individuals and managers have access to a range of First Capital Connect following the introduction of the support to help them with issues that could affect Thameslink contract. [R] [114260] mental health. This includes occupational health professionals who, in prisons, are based on site, and an Mrs Villiers: The existing Hornsey depot will continue employee assistance programme which provides advice to be used to maintain non-Thameslink mainline and on issues such as debt management and bereavement. other Great Northern commuter and suburban services Managers and staff share responsibility for assessing following the introduction of the Thameslink contract. and managing stress at work. The MOJ provides detailed guidance on how these actions should be carried out John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for and the arrangements which should be followed; this Transport what changes to train maintenance work at also applies with regard to staff who are exposed to Hornsey depot she expects to see over the next five potentially traumatising incidents. years as the result of the Thameslink Rolling stock contract and new franchise agreements. [R] [114261]

Mrs Villiers: Subject to contract award, the fleet of DEFENCE trains being procured for Thameslink will be maintained Armed Forces: Housing at a new train maintenance facility to be constructed on Coronation Sidings adjacent to the existing train maintenance facility at Hornsey. The existing Hornsey Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for depot will continue to be used to maintain non-Thameslink Defence how he plans to allocate the £100 million mainline and other Great Northern commuter and announced in Budget 2011 for service accommodation. suburban services following the introduction of the [114565] Thameslink contract. Mr Robathan: As announced in March 2012, the John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Ministry of Defence (MOD) will receive an additional Transport what discussions (a) she, (b) Ministers in £100 million from April 2013. The MOD will target the her Department and (c) officials in her Department extra investment to generate maximum impact for defence have had with train operating companies in respect of and for the benefit of service personnel and their families. future workloads at Hornsey depot as a result of the We will bring around 550 service family accommodation Thameslink Rolling stock contract and new franchise (SFA) properties up to the highest standard for condition agreements; and what the outcome was of such and refurbish around 600 single living accommodation discussions. [R] [114262] rooms. The extra investment will also mean that in areas of high demand 100 vacant SFA properties will be Mrs Villiers: Managing workloads at depots to deliver made ready for occupation and new homes purchased. the train service is the responsibility of the train operating companies. The Department is currently consulting on Armed Forces: Pay the train service specification for the new Thameslink franchise. The existing Hornsey depot will continue to Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for be required to maintain non-Thameslink mainline and Defence pursuant to the answer of 26 June 2012, other Great Northern commuter and suburban services Official Report, column 192W, on armed forces: pay, following the introduction of the Thameslink contract. whether monies due to bereaved families are adjusted 679W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 680W to claim back salaries automatically paid to service Cyprus: Military Bases personnel in respect of the period after their death and before the month end. [114818] Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment his Department has made of the Mr Robathan: We never ask families of those killed in long-term future for the sovereign base areas in Cyprus. service to pay money back. Our aim is to ensure families [114687] receive the right amount of money as quickly as possible and to conduct a reconciliation of their pay accounts as Nick Harvey: I refer the hon. Member to the statement soon as all the information becomes available to us. We given by the Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. do not collect any money from the families of deceased Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond) service personnel, but we do adjust future payments to on 15 December 2011, Official Report, column 115WS. ensure families are paid all monies to which they are entitled. Iran Armed Forces: Redundancy George Galloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what preparations his Department has made Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for for war with Iran; and what estimate he has made of Defence how many members of HM Armed Forces the likely cost in (a) personnel and (b) materiel. who have been issued with compulsory redundant [114114] notes for discharge are within one year of reaching the full qualifying date for an immediate Ministry of Nick Harvey: We are not advocating military action Defence Pension. [113645] against Iran. We continue to believe that the dual-track process of pressure and engagement led by the E3+3, Mr Robathan: Because of the complexity of pensions comprising the UK, US, France, Germany, China and calculations, the exact number of service personnel Russia, offers the best hope of resolving international within one year of reaching the full qualifying date for concerns about Iran’s nuclear programme. an immediate pension could be determined only by a However, we do not believe it is sensible to rule out manual analysis of the records of those selected for any option; we have therefore made it clear that all redundancy, which could be provided only at options remain on the table. Parliamentarians backed disproportionate cost. However early analysis indicates the Government’s approach in a vote in the House of approximately 80 (roughly 1.2%) of the 6,660 armed Commons on 20 February 2012, with a majority of 285. forces personnel selected for redundancy in tranches 1 and 2 are non-applicants who will now, following a reduction in the qualifying period, be within one year of Sovereignty: Scotland qualifying for an immediate pension or equivalent on their redundancy exit date. Selection for redundancy Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for was based on clearly defined criteria; proximity to pension Defence if his Department will allocate resources to point was not one of these. considering the effect on UK military capabilities of The Armed Forces Redundancy schemes pay significantly Scotland voting in favour of separation in the 2014 larger tax free redundancy compensation lump sums to referendum. [114489] those who narrowly miss out on immediate incomes. Any pension rights that have been earned will also be Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 2 July 2012]: preserved, meaning that an index linked pension and a The UK Government position is clear: Scotland benefits further tax-free lump sum will become payable at age 60 from being part of the UK and the UK benefits from or 65, depending on pension scheme. having Scotland within it. The UK Government is not making plans for independence as we are confident that Whereas the majority of other ranks normally have people in Scotland will continue to support Scotland to serve for 22 years before receiving an immediate remaining within the UK in any referendum. income, the Armed Forces Redundancy schemes reduce this requirement to 18 years. This is a concession of In the run-up to the referendum the UK Government four years, which will enable many redundees to receive will produce detailed evidence and analysis to assess the an immediate income for which they would otherwise benefits that Scotland gains from being part of the UK not have qualified. and the contribution that Scotland makes to the UK. As one of the major reserved areas, Defence will feature significantly in this work. Armed Forces: Uniforms Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if his Department will discuss the future of Defence what budget was allocated to ceremonial HMNB Clyde with the Scottish Government before the uniforms for the (a) Army, (b) Navy and (c) RAF in 2014 referendum on Scottish independence. [114490] the last year. [114578] Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 2 July 2012]: Peter Luff [holding answer 2 July 2012]: Budgets for The UK Government position is clear: Scotland benefits ceremonial uniforms are not held in the format requested, from being part of the UK and the UK benefits from as they form part of the three services’ overall clothing having Scotland within it. The UK Government is not budgets, and could be provided only at disproportionate making plans for independence as we are confident that cost. people in Scotland will continue to support Scotland 681W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 682W remaining within the UK in any referendum. Therefore The MOD carried out a comprehensive study into I have no plans to discuss the future of Her Majesty’s investing in this capability, however during the three Naval Base Clyde with the Scottish Government. month exercise we concluded that it was not necessary to commit funding to CEC at this stage. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for The MOD now manages the Equipment programme Defence (1) what estimate his Department has made of on the basis of committing only when funding for the the cost of replicating the facilities at Faslane and full procurement and sustainment cost of a new project Coulport at another site in the UK; [114491] is available and when a commitment needs to be made (2) what contingency arrangements his Department in order to meet the required in-service date. has put in place for the operation of Vanguard class The decision not to commit to this project at the submarines should HMNB Clyde become inoperable. moment does not rule out a future commitment to the [114492] capability. Decisions on future commitments will be taken on Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 2 July 2012]: the advice of the Armed Forces Committee, which The UK Government position is clear: Scotland benefits makes the budget available and decides what the priorities from being part of the UK and the UK benefits from should be. having Scotland within it. The UK Government is not The Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. making plans for independence as we are confident that Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge people in Scotland will continue to support Scotland (Mr Hammond), made clear last month, the MOD remaining within the UK in any referendum. budget has headroom of £8 billion over the next 10 years No work has been undertaken to estimate the cost of for potential programmes. replicating the facilities at Faslane and Coulport at The Armed Forces Committee will prioritise projects another site in the UK. It is clear from first principles, for commitment when necessary, and not before. however, that the cost of relocating such facilities from Without CEC, the T45 Destroyer remains a world Scotland would be extremely high. leading, state-of-the-art anti-air warfare platform with I am withholding information relating to contingency a range of capabilities for defeating complex threats. planning arrangements should Her Majesty’s Naval Base (HMNB) Clyde become inoperable for the purpose World War II: Military Decorations of safeguarding national security. Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for Warships Defence what representations he has received on awarding a Service Medal to former members of Bomber Command; and if he will make a statement. [115072] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) what assessment he has made of the extent Mr Robathan: Defence Ministers and their officials to which the Co-operative Engagement Capability have received a number of representations in respect of system will contribute to a recognised air picture; awarding a Service Medal to Bomber Command veterans. [110046] There is widespread admiration for the major (2) whether the Co-operative Engagement Capability contribution that the crews of Bomber Command made system (a) increases interoperability with the US Navy to the Allied victory in World War II and their commitment and (b) reduces the possibility of friendly fire incidents; in the face of significant losses. [110047] The coalition Government have agreed that there (3) what role the Co-operative Engagement Capability should be a fresh review of the rules governing the system will have in protecting Queen Elizabeth Class award of military medals. This is currently being undertaken carriers. [110048] by an independent lead, Sir John Holmes, in full (4) what estimate he has made of the amount spent consultation with interested parties. The independent on the Co-operative Engagement Capability system for review will make use of all the work undertaken as part Royal Navy vessels to date. [109770] of an earlier Ministry of Defence review, but will have a broader scope. It is anticipated that it will be completed Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for by the end of the summer. Defence pursuant to the oral answer of 11 June 2012, Official Report, column 4, on new equipment (expenditure), whether the co-operative engagement capability has ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS been (a) permanently cancelled and (b) not committed to at this stage. [113052] Animal Welfare: Circuses

Peter Luff: Co-operative engagement capability (CEC) Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for has not been cut; it was never in the committed core Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans equipment programme. The CEC programme entered to lay regulations before Parliament to restrict the use the assessment phase in 2000. The previous Government of wild animals in travelling circuses. [115125] then deferred the programme by five years in 2005 and by a further four years in 2010. The Ministry of Defence Mr Paice: My written ministerial statement on 1 March (MOD)’s expenditure to date on the assessment phase 2012, Official Report, columns 41-42W, confirmed that over this whole period is £45.5 million inclusive of we intend to introduce legislation to ban the use of such non-recoverable VAT. animals on ethical grounds. A ban will be implemented 683W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 684W as soon as parliamentary time allows. In the meantime, Richard Benyon: DEFRA has published information we will introduce a new licensing scheme to protect the on Government procurement card spending over £500 welfare of wild animals in travelling circuses via regulations. as follows: We hope to lay those regulations before Parliament before summer recess. Period Date published April to August 2011 27 October 2011 Gangmasters September to October 2011 9 December 2011 November 2011 17 January 2012 Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for December 2011 22 June 2012 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) following the April 2010 to March 2011 22 June 2012 debate in Westminster Hall on 20 June 2012 on gangmasters, what steps her Department is taking to investigate the Litter use of repayment orders for gangmaster-related offences; and by what date she expects this to take place; [115123] Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) following the debate in Westminster Hall on 20 June Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many 2012 on gangmasters, by what date she expects to have street litter control notices have been issued in (a) referred the development of sentencing guidelines for England and Wales, (b) Nottinghamshire and (c) Ashfield gangmaster-related offences to the Ministry of Justice. constituency in the last three years; [114849] [115124] (2) how many litter clearance notices have been issued in (a) England and Wales, (b) Nottinghamshire and Mr Paice: On 24 May 2012, Official Report, columns (c) Ashfield constituency in the last three years. 83-85WS, I announced the outcome of the Government’s [114850] Red Tape Challenge in respect of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority (GLA). This included bringing Richard Benyon: Figures on the number of street forward proposals for consultation on the introduction litter control notices and litter clearance notices issued of fines and penalties for low level technical and minor in England and Wales, Nottinghamshire and Ashfield offences, including a measure similar to a Repayment in the last three years are not held centrally. Order. Detailed proposals will be published later this Livestock: Exports year. As part of the wider work on the GLA being taken Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for forward as a result of proposals arising from the Red Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much Tape Challenge, and following commitments given during livestock was exported to be reared outside of the UK the Westminster Hall Debate on 20 June 2012, Official in each of the last five years. [114340] Report, columns 272-80WH, we will look at whether it would be appropriate to issue sentencing guidelines Mr Paice: Prior to 2009, individual animal health for gangmaster-related offences. We will make further offices had responsibility for tracking exports. Therefore, announcements in due course. data prior to 2009 is not held centrally. The data for 2010 is limited as the introduction of a centralised team Government Procurement Card within Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories was gradual. Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Data about whether the animal is being exported for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on which dates rearing before slaughter is not collected, so the figures her Department has published Government procurement for slaughter have been included for completeness. card spending over £500 since May 2010. [113355] The figures are as follows.

Total number Number of animals Total number Number of Total number Number of of for production/ of animals for of animals for Animals consignments fattening consignments slaughter consignments breeding

2010 Pigs 171 — — — — — Sheep and Goats 193 — — — — — Cattle 218 — — — — —

2011 Pigs 0 0 6 422 96 4,667 Sheep and Goats 138 57,449 40 14,606 149 1,866 Cattle 6 1,021 91 12,535 286 1,691

2012 (to Pigs 0 0 0 0 20 805 date) Sheep and Goats 16 3,824 10 3,098 26 118 Cattle 19 3,026 1 148 160 944 685W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 686W

Meat Date of Regulation introduction

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Flood and Water Management Act 2010 18 March 2012 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what representations (Commencement No 6 and Transitional she has made on the unilateral nature of the ban on Provisions) Order 2012 (SI 2012/879) desinewed ruminant meat products as of the end of Sea Fishing (Licences and Notices) (England) 14 March 2012 April 2012; and if she will make a statement. [114325] Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/827) Smoke Control Areas (Exempted Fireplaces) 13 March 2012 (England) Order 2012 (SI 2012/815) Mr Paice: On 18 June, I discussed the issue of desinewed Smoke Control Areas (Authorised Fuels) 13 March 2012 meat with Commissioner Dalli (European Commissioner (England) Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/814) for Health and Consumer Policy), including the timing Controlled Waste (England and Wales) 12 March 2012 of relevant audit visits by the EU Food and Veterinary Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/811) Office to other member states and the process and Plant Health (Fees) (England) Regulations 2012 27 February timescales for the Commission to submit a mandate for (SI 2012/745) 2012 a formal scientific opinion on mechanically separated Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 3 March 2012 meat by the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA). (Transitional Provisions) Order 2012 (SI 2012/ The Commission has indicated that this will be sent to 698) EFSA within the next few weeks. Plant Health (Miscellaneous Amendments) 3 March 2012 (England) Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/697) Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) 16 February Regulation (Amendment) Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/630) 2012 Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) 22 February Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2012 (SI 2012 2012/501) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what regulations Water Act 2003 (Commencement No. 11) Order 2 February her Department introduced between 1 February 2012 2012 (SI 2012/264) 2012 and 31 May 2012; and at what cost to the public purse. Contaminated Land (England) (Amendment) 2 February [113997] Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/263) 2012

Mr Paice: The Department introduced 22 statutory instruments between 1 February 2012 and 31 May 2012. Sausages: Lincolnshire A list of these instruments is set out in the table. DEFRA does not capture the cost to the public purse Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, of new statutory instruments (eg including staff time or Food and Rural Affairs if she will reverse her Department’s cost to regulators), but does capture the forecast costs ruling on the protected geographical indication status and savings to business, which are set out in individual of the Lincolnshire sausage. [113247] impact assessments. These are available electronically from the Better Regulation Executive’s impact assessment Mr Paice: The Lincolnshire Sausage Association (LSA) library: submitted an appeal against the decision to reject the http://www.ialibrary.bis.gov.uk/links/ application to protect the name ‘Lincolnshire Sausage’ as a Protected Geographical Indication (PGI) on 14 June Date of 2012. We are now giving careful consideration to the Regulation introduction grounds of that appeal. Any reconsideration of our decision will depend on new evidence and information Tuberculosis (England) (Amendment) Order 14 May 2012 being provided by the LSA in its appeal. 2012 (SI 2012/1391) Individual Ascertainment of Value (England) 14 May 2012 We will write to the LSA to inform it of the outcome Order 2012 (SI 2012/1380) of our consideration of the appeal. Cattle Compensation (England) Order 2012 (SI 14 May 2012 2012/1379) Water Charges Fishing Boats (Satellite-Tracking Devices and 17 May 2012 Electronic Reporting) (England) Scheme 2012 (SI 2012/1375) Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Bridgewater Canal (Transfer of Undertaking) 1 May 2012 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent estimate Order 2012 (SI 2012/1266) she has made of the average household water bill in Control of Dogs (Designation of the Common 1 May 2012 each (a) region and (b) nation in each of the last five Council of the City of London as a Secondary years. [114134] Authority) Order 2012 (SI 2012/1223) Environmental Offences (Fixed Penalties) 21 April 2012 Richard Benyon: Ofwat is the economic regulator of (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Amendment) water and sewerage companies in England and Wales. It Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/1151) holds average water bill information for each water Environmental Protection Act 1990 21 April 2012 company in England and Wales and calculates a sector (Amendment of Fixed Penalty Amount) (England) Order 2012 (SI 2012/1150) wide average bill. Quality Standards for Green Bananas (England 21 March 2012 Ofwat does not hold information on average bills for and Wales) Regulations 2012 (SI 2012/947) Scotland or Northern Ireland. Environmental Protection Act 1990 20 March 2012 A table showing average household water bills in each (Commencement No. 19) Order 2012 (SI 2012/ region and in England and Wales, in each of the last five 898) years, is as follows. 687W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 688W

Real (2012-13 prices) average water only bills1 £ Confirmed figures Provisional Forecast figures Figures 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Water and sewerage companies Anglian 171 179 188 188 190 186 188 189 Dwr Cymru (Welsh Water) 178 181 184 187 188 182 181 178 Northumbrian 140 144 147 145 145 156 161 161 Essex and Suffolk (Water 177 182 187 188 189 206 215 217 only) Severn Trent 162 166 167 165 167 175 172 171 South West 188 205 222 224 227 228 229 228 Southern 132 138 140 139 139 142 146 149 Thames 186 192 200 200 202 208 202 199 United Utilities 168 176 183 185 186 191 192 190 Wessex 183 199 215 221 219 223 230 234 Yorkshire 160 165 167 169 169 166 165 166

Water only companies Bristol 162 164 168 172 171 172 175 181 Cambridge 133 132 135 126 128 128 126 127 Dee Valley 145 140 137 142 140 142 144 145 Portsmouth 100 99 100 102 102 97 96 94 Sembcorp Bournemouth 159 161 161 157 150 157 155 153 Water South East (including ’Mid 198 183 191 188 191 195 205 204 Kent Water’ from 2008-09) Mid Kent Water2 185 180 181 — — — — — South Staffordshire Water 128 132 135 136 137 140 138 140 Sutton and East Surrey 185 186 187 181 180 180 177 181 Veolia Water Central 175 173 176 173 175 179 179 174 (formerly Three Valleys Water) Veolia Water East (formerly 210 202 189 186 187 180 176 173 Tendring Hundred) Veolia Water South East 192 200 206 200 198 194 192 188 (formerly Folkestone and Dover)

Industry average bill 133 140 150 157 162 166 174 182 1 Average bills take account of both metered and unmetered bills. 2 Mid Kent Water merged with South East Water in 2008-09.

Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate Adult Education: Devon her Department has made of the proportion of household earnings of those in the poorest UK decile which was Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for spent on water and sewerage rates in each of the last Business, Innovation and Skills how many residents of five years. [114272] (a) Newton Abbot constituency and (b) Teignbridge (i) started and (ii) completed a course at an adult education college in each of the last five years. [113675] Richard Benyon: Ofwat is the economic regulator of water and sewerage companies in England and Wales. Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows Government-funded further In its publication ‘Affordability and Debt 2009-10 - education and skills learner participation and achievements current evidence’, it estimated that 87% of those in the in general further education colleges in Newton Abbot lowest income decile spent more than 3% of their and Central Devon parliamentary constituencies which income on water; and 74% spent more than 5% of their comprise Teignbridge district, by age, for academic income. This was for the year 2008-09, which is the years 2006/07 to 2010/11, the latest full years for which latest information available. final data are available.

Table 1: General further education colleges learner participation and achievement by geography and age 2006/07 to 2010/11 Age 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

Participation NewtonAbbotconstituency Under 19 960 1,130 1,160 1,240 1,270 689W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 690W

Table 1: General further education colleges learner participation and achievement by geography and age 2006/07 to 2010/11 Age 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

19+ 1,740 2,680 2,730 2,850 2,440 Total 2,690 3,800 3,890 4,090 3,710 Central Devon Under 19 890 960 960 1,050 1,090 19+ 1,470 1,440 1,820 1,800 1,390 Total 2,360 2,400 2,780 2,840 2,480 Teignbridge district Under 19 1,850 2,090 2,120 2,290 2,370 19+ 3,210 4,110 4,550 4,640 3,830 Total 5,060 6,200 6,670 6,930 6,200 England Under 19 630,630 654,060 662,530 682,240 694,460 19+ 1,573,700 1,551,600 1,768,040 1,635,590 1,338,480 Total 2,204,300 2,205,700 2,430,600 2,317,800 2,032,900 Achievement Newton Abbot constituency Under 19 660 780 900 980 1,090 19+ 1,150 1,620 1,760 2,280 2,050 Total 1,810 2,400 2,660 3,260 3,140 Central Devon Under 19 620 670 760 830 930 19+ 970 930 1,190 1,370 1,090 Total 1,580 1,600 1,940 2,200 2,020 Teignbridge district Under 19 1,280 1,450 1,660 1,810 2,020 19+ 2,120 2,550 2,940 3,660 3,140 Total 3,400 4,010 4,600 5,460 5,160 England Under 19 457,610 489,320 521,120 546,780 558,360 19+ 1,084,100 1,060,260 1,221,600 1,187,170 975,860 Total 1,541,700 1,549,600 1,742,700 1,734,000 1,534,200 Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10 except for the England Totals which are rounded to the nearest 100. 2. Geography is based upon the home postcode of the learner. Geographic information is based on boundaries of regions as of May 2010. The England Totals include some postcodes which are not known. 3. Teignbridge district is comprised of Newton Abbot and Central Devon parliamentary constituencies. Figures for Teignbridge district are based on the sum of unrounded data for these parliamentary constituencies. Figures may not sum to the total due to rounding. 4. These data include both young people (under 19) and adults (aged 19+) participating in apprenticeships, workplace learning, community learning and education and training provision taken at general further education colleges (including Tertiary) only. 5. Age is based on age at the start of the academic year. Source: Individualised Learner Record

Information on further education and skills participation We have achieved agreement in Brussels exempting up to and achievement by geography is published in a 1.4 million UK small businesses from certain EU accounting supplementary table of a quarterly statistical first release rules. (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 29 March 2012: More widely, the Government introduced a three http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ year moratorium on new domestic regulation for micro- statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ businesses and start-ups from 1 April 2011 in order to support growth and establish a period of increased regulatory stability for the smallest businesses. Business To help reduce the burden of new business regulation we have introduced the one-in, one-out rule, so that if a Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Department wants to introduce a new rule which generates Innovation and Skills what recent steps his Department costs for business, they must first identify a corresponding has taken to reduce the burden of regulation on small cut in regulation elsewhere with the same value. and medium-sized businesses. [114658] We are running the Red Tape Challenge, a process for scrapping and simplifying existing regulations that are Mr Prisk: This Government has taken specific and obsolete. concrete steps to reduce the burden of regulation on Finally, we recently launched Focus on Enforcement, small and medium sized businesses: to improve the impact on business of how regulations We have already saved SMEs £388 million by not extending the are enforced. right to request time to train to businesses with fewer than 250 employees; Coal Fired Power Stations: Export Credit Guarantees The display ban on tobacco, which applies to supermarkets and very large stores from April 2012, will not apply to smaller Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for tobacco retailers until April 2015; Business, Innovation and Skills what recent support We are phasing implementation of pensions auto enrolment, UK Export Finance has given to unabated coal-fired so that small business will not need to comply until June 2015; energy projects. [113883] 691W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 692W

Norman Lamb: UK Export Finance has not given anything any more”; and to champion the exciting support for a coal-fired power station since 2002. reality of British manufacturing today. We want people in the UK to take a fresh look at manufacturing and to Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for appreciate the scale and excellence of our manufacturing Business, Innovation and Skills what plans UK Export industry. Finance has to support unabated coal-fired energy The Make it in Great Britain (MiiGB) campaign is all projects. [113884] about changing the image of manufacturing, among investors and especially young people, too many of Norman Lamb: UK Export Finance is not currently whom are missing out on great jobs and careers. considering any applications made to it to support The campaign builds on the already successful See exports for coal-fired power stations. Inside Manufacturing programme, which encourages EU Internal Trade young people to consider a career in manufacturing by enabling them to go behind the scenes of some of the UK’s world-class facilities to learn about modern Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for manufacturing and the jobs available. Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on the discouragement of anti-competitive state aid to improve the functioning of Overseas Students: EU Countries the single market. [115432] Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Norman Lamb: The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many British nationals Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member studied in each other EU member state in each of the for Twickenham (Vince Cable), met with the Competition last 10 years; and if he will make a statement; [114219] Commissioner, Vice President Almunia in May 2012 to (2) how many students from each other EU member discuss the UK’s support for state aid rules that ensure states studied in the UK in each of the last 10 years; a level playing field for competition. This is a key and if he will make a statement. [114220] objective for the European Commission’s State Aid Modernisation agenda which also seeks to facilitate Mr Willetts: Estimates of the number of UK-domiciles growth across the EU. Positive contacts are also ongoing studying higher education (HE) qualifications in EU at official level. member states (other than the UK) are shown in Table Manufacturing Industries: Motor Vehicles 1. These estimates are based on data collections from National Ministries by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) and Eurostat, Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for and refer to the period 2000 to 2009, the latest year for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate which data are available. his Department has made of the number of people employed by low emission vehicle manufacturing Information on the number of students domiciled companies based in the UK. [115094] in European Union (EU) member states (other than the UK) and enrolled at UK higher education institutions Mr Prisk: We have made no recent estimate of the (HEIs) is shown in Table 2. These statistics from the number of people in the UK employed in low emission Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) cover the vehicle manufacturing. academic years 2001/02 to 2010/11. Information for the 2011/12 academic year will become available from Origin Marking January 2013. The counts of outgoing (Table 1) and incoming (Table 2) Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for students are not strictly comparable because they use Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking different coverage rules and differing definitional criteria. to assess the effect of labelling the country of The OECD and Eurostat measures of outgoing students, manufacture or origin on products on the retailing of for example, do not include students on exchange such products. [114584] programmes or those studying for a qualification with a full-time equivalent duration of less than two years; the Norman Lamb: The Department for Business, Innovation HESA statistics on incoming students do include such and Skills does not make assessments or collect commercial students. data on retail sales of individual product lines, or In addition to those who study abroad for their full products with certain characteristics such as origin labelling. degree, there are many schemes to allow students to We consider this a commercial decision for the retailers spend part of their degree abroad. The largest is the concerned. Erasmus programme, where students can study in most other European countries including all EU member Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for states. In 2009/10, there were 8,054 outgoing Erasmus Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department study placements undertaken by UK students. The is working on schemes to accredit products for which most recent figures available for incoming Erasmus the majority of design and manufacture took place in study placements are for 2008/09 when there were 16,051; the UK. [114586] the outgoing figure for that year was 7,428. It is not possible to say how many of the outgoing and incoming Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation students went to or arrived from the 26 other EU and Skills is not working on any such schemes. Our member states as opposed to the six other European focus is on challenging the myths that “we don’t make countries in the programme. 693W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 694W

Government is dedicated to ensuring students have students have access to study at universities in other the opportunity to gain international experience through member states of the EU under the same terms that degree or credit mobility, or work experience, as we apply to students of those countries. This enables students recognise the benefits gained from time abroad both for to experience different cultures, develop foreign language the student, UK HEIs and the wider economy. capability and other skills, which can be invaluable in The movement of students between countries is to be their future working and personal lives. encouraged. It is of mutual benefit. Under EU law, UK

Table 1: Estimated number of UK students1 studying2 higher education3 in EU member states (other than the UK) years 200009 EU member state 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009

Austria 214 214 173 175 186 180 194 200 243 258 Belgium 210 231 235 234 270 145 210 251 241 254 Bulgaria 1 1 4 1335736 Cyprus 44 50 47 64 66 77 50 43 48 54 Czech Republic 228 241 231 237 265 334 363 405 410 402 Denmark 374 388 401 425 450 466 471 479 472 517 Estonia30212234710 Finland 143 147 141 160 172 191 189 189 200 188 France 3,147 2,721 2,545 2,998 2,611 2,299 2,570 2,595 2,519 2,580 Germany 2,599 2,397 2,242 2,172 2,154 1,962 1,871 1,854 1,723 1,889 Greece 5 0 4 7 14 19 85 106 102 100 Hungary 40 46 39 23 28 33 53 76 104 128 Ireland 1,809 1,939 1,960 2,132 2,000 1,850 1,700 1,550 1,421 2,184 Italy 91 145 112 173 247 249 280 298 247 245 Latvia 15436815172528 Lithuania 2332488878 Luxembourg 4— 4—000040720 Malta 12 6 6 12 10 13 16 19 31 32 Netherlands 661 648 628 603 590 731 772 802 827 825 Poland2421282622414577105109 Portugal 94 90 90 91 90 107 86 90 99 101 Romania2356141610333162 Slovakia23545612264152 Slovenia 4— 4— 4— 4— 4—20114 Spain 660 663 657 653 593 538 618 662 721 838 Sweden 828 791 808 839 822 839 761 789 525 541 Estimated total 11,194 10,753 10,370 11,041 10,624 10,119 10,391 10,581 10,160 11,435 1 OECD and Eurostat data collections allow countries to report estimates referring to either ‘usual/permanent residence’ or ‘country of prior education’ to define mobile students. 2 Covers students in all years of study. 3 These estimates do not include students on exchange programmes or those studying for a qualification with a full-time equivalent duration of less than two years. 4 Denotes missing. Note: Numbers in italics are internal estimates/adjustments to ‘correct’ for implausible values, missing data and methodological changes. Source: OECD and Eurostat data collections Table 2: EU member state (non-UK) domiciled1 enrolments2 at UK higher education institutions: Academic years 2001/01 to 2010/11 EU member state 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

Austria 1,020 1,145 1,265 1,255 1,300 1,355 1,415 1,380 1,490 1,695 Belgium 2,105 2,215 2,325 2,300 2,365 2,440 2,475 2,565 2,755 2,955 Bulgaria ——————1,2502,185 3,395 4,615 Cyprus — — — 5,490 6,950 8,360 9,640 10,370 11,160 11,320 Czech Republic — — — 590 860 1,130 1,300 1,315 1,195 1,185 Denmark 1,530 1,650 1,595 1,575 1,515 1,470 1,515 1,525 1,555 1,530 Estonia — — — 175 350 520 660 840 955 1,060 Finland 2,045 1,915 1,830 1,685 1,710 1,625 1,665 1,680 1,760 1,880 France 9,430 9,995 10,690 11,035 11,835 12,385 12,715 13,115 13,805 13,370 Germany 10,285 11,150 11,440 11,895 12,520 13,145 13,625 14,130 15,425 16,265 Gibraltar 690 695 680 610 600 620 620 615 625 665 Greece 26,575 24,005 20,785 17,585 15,740 14,025 12,625 12,035 11,785 11,630 Hungary — — — 570 775 995 1,025 1,130 1,170 1,155 Ireland 12,735 13,020 14,235 15,780 16,120 15,585 15,260 15,360 16,595 16,855 Italy 4,770 5,005 4,765 4,845 4,975 5,430 5,605 6,040 6,550 7,100 695W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 696W

Table 2: EU member state (non-UK) domiciled1 enrolments2 at UK higher education institutions: Academic years 2001/01 to 2010/11 EU member state 2001/02 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

Latvia — — — 255 520 865 1,145 1,370 1,635 2,025 Lithuania — — — 415 960 1,465 1,970 2,410 2,930 3,895 Luxembourg 695 780 810 800 800 830 835 890 960 1,000 Malta — — — 555 705 745 820 900 995 1,030 Netherlands 2,025 2,260 2,320 2,275 2,510 2,620 3,040 3,200 3,270 3,340 Poland — — — 2,130 4,245 6,640 8,570 9,145 8,415 7,330 Portugal 2,135 2,305 2,435 2,590 2,680 2,785 2,830 2,755 2,685 2,660 Romania——————1,1802,160 3,190 4,625 Slovakia — — — 345 630 875 1,115 1,305 1,405 1,410 Slovenia — — — 300 280 255 285 270 290 295 Spain 5,415 5,830 5,795 5,615 5,840 5,965 5,750 5,700 5,730 5,820 Sweden 3,535 3,530 3,285 3,325 3,210 3,275 3,195 3,185 3,200 3,335 European Union, ——————158512085 not otherwise specified Total 84,985 85,500 84,250 93,995 99,985 105,410 112,150 117,660 125,045 130,120 1 Domicile refers to the country of a student’s permanent or home address prior to entry to their course. 2 Covers students in all years of study. Notes: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded up or down to the nearest multiple of five, so components may not sum to totals. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record

Overseas Students: Loans INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Developing Countries: Coal Fired Power Stations Innovation and Skills what steps he has taken to ensure repayment of debts by EU students who take out loans Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for with the Student Loan Company. [114689] International Development what his policy is on UK export finance support for unabated coal-fired power Mr Willetts: Since 2006/07, EU students have been stations in middle income countries. [113882] entitled to loans for their tuition fees at English higher education institutions. If they choose to take out a loan, Norman Lamb: I have been asked to reply on behalf the Student Loan Company (SLC) pays their fees directly of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. to their higher education institution. The coalition agreement sets out the Government’s When applying for support, EU students must provide commitment to ensure that proof of identity, and provide their home address and “UK Trade and Investment and the UK Export Finance term-time address, and the names and addresses of two (listed as Export Credits Guarantee Department—ECGD) become other contacts. They also provide their national insurance champions for British companies that develop and export innovative number if they have one, and are asked to supply email green technologies around the world, instead of supporting investment addresses, and telephone numbers. in dirty fossil-fuel energy production”. Those staying in the UK after completing their course The Government will make further announcements are all expected to obtain a national insurance number, on implementation of this commitment in due course. and will make repayments through the UK tax system. The SLC has established repayment arrangements for all borrowers who move overseas, whether temporarily or permanently. The SLC asks for information about earnings and gives the borrower a monthly repayment EDUCATION schedule for a 12 month period. The banded overseas repayment thresholds take account of the level of Academies: Complaints affordability in different countries. This means that repayments will still be income contingent and based on ability to repay, wherever the borrower lives. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many complaints against academies Where borrowers fail to respond to the SLC, they and free schools have been upheld, in full or part, by become liable for a standard rate of repayment of £246 (a) his Department and (b) the Education Funding per month. Where necessary, the SLC uses international Agency. [111390] tracing agents to locate borrowers and, where appropriate, legal action is taken. Tim Loughton: At present the (a) Department does The SLC is currently considering several options to not hold these data centrally and (b) the Education make it easier for overseas borrowers to make repayments, Funding Agency was created on 1 April 2012. In the as well as other techniques that would help increase future the Department will be providing this information collections. to the Education Select Committee in an annual report. 697W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 698W

Adoption so that children are effectively safeguarded and we will be looking at options for changing legislation as announced Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Education on3July. what recent representations he has received on the publication of local authority adoption scorecards; and Computers if he will make a statement. [111811] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Tim Loughton: We have received a range of how many requests have been made to his Department’s representations about the publication of the adoption IT department from (a) Ministers, (b) officials and (c) scorecards. special advisers requesting information about the process We worked with national organisations such as the of replacing their desktop computers in the last 12 months. Local Government Association (LGA) and Association [113926] of Directors of Children’s Services (ADCS) as we developed proposals for the scorecards, and plans for their publication. Tim Loughton [holding answer 26 June 2012]: No Those organisations and other national adoption requests have been made to the Department’s IT service organisations commented publicly when the proposals desk from Ministers, officials or special advisers for were announced in the Adoption Action Plan and when information about the process of replacing their desktop the first set of scorecards was published. Their comments computers. However the Department is moving to a are available on their websites. “thin client” IT infrastructure which will require the Since we published the scorecards we have been meeting replacement of desktop computers with devices that local authorities where the data in the scorecard raise support the new IT system. As part of the roll-out of concerns. The local authorities we have met have given this system, security questions have been raised about us their views about the scorecard. Some local authorities destruction of data on the old PC hard drives. have expressed concern about the use of scorecards focused on adoption timeliness, while others have found Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats it a useful prompt for assessing their performance and developing plans for improvement. Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what (a) grants and (b) contracts his CAFCASS Department has awarded to companies or organisations run by individuals who were previously employed in John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for any capacity by (i) the Conservative Party or its elected Education (1) what the budget is for the Children and representatives and (ii) the Liberal Democrat Party or Family Court Advisory and Support Service in each its elected representatives since May 2010; what the (A) year until 2015; [111160] value and (B) nature was of these contracts; and whether (2) what plans he has for future staffing numbers they were publicly advertised. [107141] within the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service. [111161] Tim Loughton: We hold details of organisations that receive a grant from or were awarded a contract by the Tim Loughton: CAFCASS budget for 2012-13 was Department, but we do not hold any further detail confirmed in the remit letter of March 2012 and is as about individuals within those organisations to know follows: whether they were employed by or held an elected position of the Conservative Party or the Liberal Democrat Budget 2012-13 (£ million) Party. To provide this information would incur disproportionate costs to this Department. Programme 113.500 With regard to grants, within the Department we Admin 12.732 have a stated aim, endorsed by our former permanent Depreciation 1.24 secretary, of competing all grants that the Department Total 127.472 gives. Depending on the subject matter of each grant, we advertise on Contracts Finder: No decision about future funding has yet been made. http://www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk However, in light of the current climate, all Government relevant trade websites or publications or on the Funding spending is subject to regular review. The future staffing Central website: numbers will, to a large extent, depend on the budget for the service. http://www.fundingcentral.org.uk/Default.aspx With regard to contracts, it is the Department’s policy Children in Care: Disclosure of Information to advertise all suitable contracts in either Contracts Finder (link as above), the Official Journal of the European Union: Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will introduce legislation to allow police forces http://ted.europa.eu/TED/main/HomePage.do access to the names and addresses of all local authority or other publications relevant to the subject matter of children’s homes in their area. [113549] the contract. A suitable contract is one with a value over £20,000 Tim Loughton: We agree there should not be barriers and where the goods or services are not available via an in regulation preventing Ofsted from sharing information existing framework agreement. Contracts with a value with the police about the location of children’s homes below £20,000 and which are not available from a 699W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 700W framework agreement are competitively tendered by Department regarding the use of private emails, IT security selecting suitable organisations to bid based on objective or data protection in the last 12 months. [113371] criteria. Tim Loughton: In the last 12 months there have been Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for less than five disciplinary procedures against civil servants, Education (1) what the (a) job title and (b) pay band regarding the use of private emails, IT security or data was of each official, excluding special advisers, recruited protection. by his Department since May 2010 who was previously employed in any capacity by the (i) Conservative Party Education Act 2011 or its elected representatives and (ii) Liberal Democrat Party or its elected representatives; and whether their Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for position was advertised publicly; [107269] Education what staffing changes he has made to his (2) what the (a) job title and (b) pay band was of Department to prepare for the commencement of section each official, excluding special advisers, recruited by his 45 of the Education Act 2011. [111016] Department since May 2010 who previously held an elected position as a member of the (i) Conservative Tim Loughton: The Department has formed a new Party and (ii) Liberal Democrat Party; and whether School Complaints Unit to improve its current school their position was advertised publicly. [107270] complaints handling procedures. This team will also undertake some of the preparations for the commencement Tim Loughton: The Department checks the references of section 45 of the Education Act 2011. The unit is of new employees and asks for them to declare any working alongside policy and correspondence teams as issues like a conflict of interest for security purposes, well as external organisations to make improvements to but it does not capture or record information on their how complaints are managed in the Department. past employment in this form. We are not aware of any appointees since May 2010 who had previously held Education: Assessments elected posts or were employed in any capacity by (i) Conservative Party or its elected representatives and (ii) Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Liberal Democrat Party or its elected representatives. Education what qualifications other than GCSEs are Curriculum offered to pupils of GCSE-age studying in England; and what the required ability ranges are for pupils for each such qualification. [114263] Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether primary legislation would be Mr Gibb: There are 4,440 Ofqual-accredited non-GCSE required to reclassify subjects and areas of learning on qualifications, which can be offered at Key Stage 4 in the national curriculum to become statutory parts of England; 140 qualifications that may be taught from the basic curriculum. [113673] September 2012 have been approved by the Department as meeting the standards for inclusion in schools Mr Gibb: Primary legislation would not be required performance tables. It is for schools to decide which either to remove subjects from the national curriculum, qualifications meet the ability and needs of individual or to add requirements to the basic curriculum. The pupils! The full list of 4,440 qualifications, including Education Act 2002 enables orders to be made by the the 140, can be found at: Secretary of State for Education which either amend www.education.gov.uk/section96/ provisions relating to the national curriculum or add requirements to the basic curriculum. and has also been placed in the House Libraries. We announced on 11 June that we do not intend to English Language: GCSE move any subjects or areas of learning from the national curriculum to the basic curriculum at primary level. We will make a further announcement in relation to the Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Education secondary curriculum in due course. if he will take steps to promote a greater emphasis on teaching accurate grammar, punctuation and spelling in Departmental Responsibilities the English Language GCSE. [114664]

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mr Gibb: The Government is committed to ensuring how many ministerial directions have been sought by that our qualifications match the best in the world. We his Department in each quarter since September 2011; want to give every child the opportunity to acquire the and on what issues they were sought. [112441] rigorous qualifications they need to succeed in further and higher education and the world of work. It is Tim Loughton [holding answer 18 June 2012]: No essential that young people are taught to write clearly ministerial directions have been sought by, or issued to, and accurately and are assessed on those skills. Many the Department’s accounting officer since September employers report that young people, even those with 2011. good GCSE grades, do not demonstrate these skills adequately. Disciplinary Proceedings GCSEs in English language and English already include the assessment of written communication skills. At least Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 12% of marks in these GCSEs are awarded for students’ how many disciplinary procedures have been brought use of a range of sentence structures for clarity, purpose against (a) special advisers and (b) civil servants in his and effect, and for accurate punctuation and spelling. 701W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 702W

As part of our qualifications reforms we have already Numbers1,2,3,4,5,6 and percentages of pupils at the end of key stage 4 achieving five or more A*-C grades at GCSE or equivalent in Warrington local authority. made a number of changes to GCSEs to ensure that the Years: 1996/97 to 2010/11 (final data). Coverage: Warrington local authority focus is put back on sound teaching with external All Boys Girls examination across the subject at the end of the course. Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage Marks for accurate spelling, punctuation and grammar have been restored to examinations in other key subjects: 1996/ 5,636 48.5 n/a n/a n/a n/a 7 English literature, geography, history and religious studies. 97 These reforms will take effect from September this year. 1997/98 1,060 48.4 n/a n/a n/a n/a 1998/99 1,169 49.7 n/a n/a n/a n/a We are considering our longer-term reforms in detail 1999/ 1,195 50.5 n/a n/a n/a n/a and we will set out our proposals shortly. 2000 2000/01 1,229 50.3 n/a n/a n/a n/a Free Schools 2001/02 1,312 51.9 n/a n/a n/a n/a 2002/03 1,404 56.4 n/a n/a n/a n/a 2003/04 1,476 58.6 n/a n/a n/a n/a Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education 2004/05 1,571 61.3 723 55.9 848 66.8 what public funding each independent school has received 2005/06 1,664 66.4 769 62.4 895 70.3 in adopting or applying to adopt free school status. 2006/07 1,878 69.9 876 65.4 1,002 74.4 [113370] 2007/08 1,842 71.6 914 67.5 928 76.1 2008/09 1,988 77.4 978 73.6 1,010 81.3 Mr Gibb: I refer the hon. Member to the reply given 2009/10 1,994 78.6 1,016 76.4 978 81.1 on 25 April 2012, Official Report, column 927W. 2010/11 2,056 83.1 990 79.3 1,066 86.9 n/a = Figures are not available. Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 2 Figures include all maintained schools (including CTCs and academies). Education how many applications were submitted to 3 From 1996/97 figures include GNVQ equivalencies and from 2003/04 other open free schools in the application round which closed equivalencies for use pre-16. in February 2012; and how many such applications 4 Figures for 2004/05 onwards are based on pupils at the end of key stage 4. Data for previous years are based on pupils aged 15-years-old at the start of the were from open 16 to 19 science, technology, engineering academic year. and mathematics colleges. [114269] 5 Figures for all years are based on final data. 6 From 2009/10 iGCSEs, accredited at time of publication, have been counted as GCSE equivalents. Mr Gibb: The Department is currently assessing the 7 1996/97 figures are for Cheshire local authority. Cheshire split into the new applications it has received to establish free schools in local authorities of Warrington, Halton and Cheshire in 1998. Source: 2013 and beyond. The Secretary of State for Education, Performance tables (1996/97 to 2003/04), National Pupil Database (2004/05 to my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath 2010/11 (Michael Gove), will make an announcement on the numbers of applications received in due course. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) how many and what proportion of GCSE Free Schools: Disadvantaged entries were at (a) foundation and (b) higher level in the latest period for which figures are available; [114312] Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many and what proportion of GCSE entries Education if he will list the free schools approved to were in (a) tiered and (b) untiered subjects in each open according to which decile of the deprivation year since the introduction of GCSEs; [114313] index the lower level super output area in which the (3) how many and what proportion of GCSE entries school is to be located is in. [114140] were at (a) foundation and (b) higher level in each year since the introduction of the GCSE. [114314] Mr Gibb [holding answer 28 June 2012]: The Department has published the deprivation banding of the free schools Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for that opened in September 2011 at: Education how many GCSE foundation level entries http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/ there were in each of the last three years; and what deprivation%20banding%20of%20free%20schools.pdf proportion of GCSE entries this represented in each year. [114802] We will publish the bandings for free schools opening in September 2012 when these schools open. Mr Gibb [holding answer 2 July 2012]: All GCSEs are either level 1 or level 2 qualifications but examinations GCSE are not available for level 1 and level 2 separately. In some subjects tiered papers are available focussing on Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education either grades A*-D (higher tier) or grades C-G (foundation how many young people in Warrington gained five tier). Other subjects have untiered assessment in which good GCSEs in each year from 1997 to the last year for the full range of grades is available. The Department which figures are available; and what proportion of the holds information on GCSE entries and grades but eligible cohort this represents by gender. [114211] does not hold information on the tiered papers for which pupils are entered. Mr Gibb [holding answer 28 June 2012]: The information requested can be found in the following table for 1996/97 Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for to 2010/11. A gender breakdown for the years 1996/97 Education what discussions he has had with the to 2003/04 can be supplied only at disproportionate Association of Colleges on his proposals for the future cost. of GCSEs. [114759] 703W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 704W

Mr Gibb: We are considering options for the long-term Co-operation in Respect of Intercountry Adoption which reform of key stage 4 examinations and will set out our sets out international standards and processes for proposals shortly. intercountry adoption. This Department has no separate agreement with Belarus. Government Procurement Card Pay Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many procurement card holders in his Department were (a) paid off-payroll, (b) employed Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for on a part-time basis and (c) employed as a non-permanent Education what the (a) highest, (b) median, (c) median employee in (i) 2009-10, (ii) 2010-11 and (iii) 2011-12. full-time equivalent and (d) lowest full-time equivalent [113340] salary was paid by (i) his Department and (ii) its public bodies in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 and (C) 2012-13. Tim Loughton: The information requested is provided [112480] in the following table: Tim Loughton: The information requested for the 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Department of Education is set out in the table. The Department does not hold salary information for its Paid off-payroll — — — public bodies. Part-time 11 11 12 To preserve individual confidentiality, a band rather Non- ——— permanent than an amount has been provided for the highest salary.

Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for As at 1 April Education on which dates his Department has published 2010/11 2011/12 2012 Government procurement card spending over £500 since Highest salary £180,000 to £140,000 to £157,000 to May 2010. [113358] £185,000 £145,000 £162,000 Lowest salary £15,266 £15,516 £15,516 Tim Loughton: The Department for Education publishes Median salary (FTE) £33,548 £33,997 £34,181 Government procurement card spending over £500 on a Median salary (not £33,350 £33,350 £33,404 monthly basis. The information is published on the last FTE) day of the month (for the previous month). Historically, data for April 2011 to June 2011 were Primary Education: Inspections published at the end of September 2011, and data for July 2011 to September 2011 were published at the end of October 2011. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department for Education publishes the information Education whether a primary school can be inspected to : by Ofsted and given a level 2 good rating if it has a poor attendance record and poor attainment rates at http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ departmentalinformation/transparency/expenditure Key Stage 2. [112293] Health Insurance Mr Gibb [holding answer 18 June 2012]: This question is a matter for Ofsted. HM Chief Inspector, Sir Michael Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Wilshaw, has written to my hon. Friend, and a copy of Education how many staff working in his Department his response has been placed in the House Libraries. are entitled to private health care as part of their Letter from Sir Michael Wilshaw, dated 13 June 2012: remuneration package. [111253] Your recent Parliamentary Question has been passed to me, as Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for response. Tim Loughton: The Department for Education does Where a school has persistently low attainment rates which not provide private health care as part of its core show little or no sign of improvement, or are in decline, it is remuneration package. highly unlikely that inspectors would judge it to be ’good’. Intercountry Adoption: Belarus However, there may be some exceptional circumstances. For example, where attainment is low but rising rapidly, and pupils are making good or even outstanding progress, a school might be James Wharton: To ask the Secretary of State for judged to be ’good’. Education (1) what discussions his Department has had Where attendance is well below average and the school has with the government of Belarus on adoption by UK been unable to make improvements, it is unlikely to be judged families of orphans from that country; [109239] ’good’. However, where attendance is low but inspection evidence (2) what agreements the UK has with the government shows that the school is successfully making improvements and attendance has been rising over a sustained period, this may of Belarus on the adoption by UK families of orphans contribute to a judgement that the school is ’good’. from that country. [109263]

Tim Loughton: The Department for Education is Procurement responsible for adoption matters. The Department has had no discussions with Belarus since November 2004. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Both the UK and Belarus have implemented the 1993 Education what the total (a) number and (b) value of Hague Convention on Protection of Children and contracts issued by (i) his Department and (ii) bodies 705W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 706W for which he is responsible which were awarded to small The Daily Telegraph: five copies per week and medium-sized enterprises was in the latest period (2) Weekly periodicals for which figures are available. [111198] The Economist: one copy per week New Statesman: one copy per week Tim Loughton: The number of contracts awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises (SME’s) in the The Spectator: one copy per week 2011/12 financial year was 61. The total spend with Times Higher Education: one copy per week SME’s in the financial 2011/12 was £47.6 million. Times Educational Supplement: one copy per week (3) Other periodicals Publications London Review of Books: one copy per fortnight The New York Review of Books: one copy per fortnight. Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for The annual subscription cost for each item is not held Education how many publications have been issued by in such a way that they can be separately identified. his Department since May 2010. [109815] Pupil Exclusions: Essex Tim Loughton: Records show that this Department has issued 15 printed publication titles since May 2010. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Other information has been published on our website how many decisions by head teachers to exclude pupils rather than as a printed publication. This is in order to were overturned by appeals panels in (a) Witham secure value for money and promote wider access to our constituency and (b) Essex in the latest year for which material. figures are available. [114668]

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Mr Gibb: The available information for 2009/10 is pursuant to the answer of 11 June 2012, Official Report, shown in the table. This includes the number of appeals column 383W, on publications, if he will list the number against permanent exclusion that have been determined of copies of each publication to which his private office in favour of the parent/pupil and the numbers of appeals subscribes; and if he will publish the annual subscription where reinstatement was directed, for England and cost for each item. [113424] Essex local authority. Parliamentary constituency information is not available as data is collected at local Tim Loughton: The information requested is as follows: authority level. (1) Daily newspapers This information is taken from the Statistical First The Wall Street Journal: five copies per week Release ’Permanent and Fixed Period Exclusions from The Financial Times: five copies per week Schools in England, 2009/10’ available at The Guardian: five copies per week http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001016/ index.shtml The Independent: five copies per week Information about appeals against permanent exclusion The Daily Mail: five copies per week in 2010/11 will be published in the ’Permanent and The Daily Express: five copies per week Fixed Period Exclusions from Schools in England, 2010/11’ The Daily Mirror: five copies per week Statistical First Release on 25 July at The Sun: five copies per week http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001080/ The Times: five copies per week index.shtml

Maintained primary, secondary and special schools1. Appeals against permanent exclusion England, 2009/10 Number of Percentage of Number of Percentage of appeals appeals successful successful Number of Number of determined in determined in appeals where appeals where appeals appeals Percentage of favour of the favour of the reinstatement reinstatement lodged heard appeals heard2 parent/pupil parent/pupil3 was directed was directed4

England 510 470 91.4 110 24.0 30 26.8 Essex local 13 13 100.0 7 53.8 * * authority * = 1 or 2 pupils, or a percentage based on 1 or 2 pupils 1 Excludes non-maintained special schools, city technology colleges and academies. 2 Shown as a percentage of appeals lodged. 3 Shown as a percentage of appeals heard. 4 Shown as a percentage of appeals determined in favour of the parent/pupil. Note: National totals may not appear to equal the sum of component parts because numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: School Exclusion Appeals Survey

Recruitment the blind sift function on the Civil Service Resourcing e-recruitment system to recruit staff in the last year. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for [110961] Education pursuant to the answer of 21 May 2012, Official Report, column 489W, on recruitment, to what Tim Loughton: The Department and its executive extent his Department and its non-departmental public agencies have not used the Civil Service Resourcing bodies and executive agencies used name-blank CVs or e-recruitment system. 707W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 708W

Of our non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) Tim Loughton [holding answer 18 June 2012]: In the Cafcass do not recruit staff using name blank CVs or period 1 February 2012 to 31 May 2012, the Department the blind sift function of the civil service e-recruitment for Education revoked 44 sets of regulations. The system. The Office for the Children’s Commissioner Government’s aim is to reduce unnecessary bureaucracy (OCC) anonymise CVs/applications but this is done on teachers, heads and governors so that they can focus independently of the blind sifting function within the on raising standards, rather than administrative tasks. civil service e-recruitment system. It is not our intention to estimate the potential cost savings for the revoked regulations, but we are looking into assessing the impact of our measures on teachers’ Regulation time. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Details of which regulations have been revoked are Education which regulations his Department repealed set out in the following table. However, as indicated by between 1 February 2012 and 31 May 2012; and what the third column of the table, in some cases the content the anticipated total savings will be from repealing of the revoked statutory instrument has been largely those regulations. [112496] replaced.

Regulations revoked Revoking instrument Comments

The Education (Infant Class Sizes) (England) The School Admissions (Infant Class Sizes) (England) Replaced by revoking Regulations Regulations 1998 (S.I 1998/1973) Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/10) The Education (Infant Class Sizes) (England) The School Admissions (Infant Class Sizes) (England) Replaced by revoking Regulations (Amendment) Regulations 2006 (S.I. 2006/3409) Regulations2012 (S.I. 2012/10) The Education (Head Teachers’ Qualifications) The Education (Head Teachers’ Qualifications) Revoked (England) Regulations 2003 (S.I 2003/3111) (England) (Revocation) Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/18 The Education (Head Teachers’ Qualifications) (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2005 (S.I 2005/ 875) The Education (Head Teachers’ Qualifications) (England) (Amendment) (No 2) Regulations 2005 (S.I 2005/3322) The Education (Head Teachers’ Qualifications) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 (S.I 2011/ 602) The School Finance (England) Regulations2008 (S.I The School Finance(England) Regulations 2012 (S.I. Replaced by revoking Regulations 2008/228) 2012/335) The School Finance (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2010 (S.I 2010/210) The Education (Teacher Student Loans) (Repayment The Education (Teacher Student Loans) (Repayment Revoked etc) Regulations 2002 (S.I 2002/2086) etc) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/555) The Consistent Financial Reporting (England) The Consistent Financial Reporting (England) Replaced by revoking Regulations Regulations 2003 (S.I 2003/373) Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/674) The Consistent Financial Reporting (England) The Consistent Financial Reporting (England) Replaced by revoking Regulations (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (S.I 2004/393) Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/674) The Consistent Financial Reporting (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2006 (S.I 2006/437) The Consistent Financial Reporting (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2007 (S.I 2007/599) The Consistent Financial Reporting (England) (Amendment). Regulations 2008 (S.I. 2008/46) The Education (Specified Work and Registration) The Education (Specified Work) (England) Regulations Replaced by revoking Regulations save for (England) Regulations (S.I 2003 2003/1663) 2012 (S.I. 2012/762) paragraph 1 (1) of Part 2 to those regulations which continues to have effect. The Education (Specified Work and Registration) Replaced by revoking Regulations (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2007 (S.I 2007/ 2177) The Education (Specified Work and Registration) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2008 (S.I. 2008/ 1883) The General Teaching Council for England The Education Act 2011 (Abolition of the GTCE Revoked (Constitution) Regulations 1999 (S.I. 1999/1726) Consequential Amendments and Revocations) Order 2012 (S.I. 2012/1153) The General Teaching Council for England The Education Act 2011 (Abolition of the GTCE Revoked (Constitution) (Amendment) Regulations 1999 (S.I. Consequential Amendments and Revocations) Order 1999/2019) 2012 (S.I. 2012/1153) The General Teaching Council for England (Constitution) (Amendment) Regulations 2000 (S.I. 2000/1447) The General Teaching Council for England (Constitution) (Amendment) Regulations 2004 (S.I. 2004/1935) The Equality Act 2006 (Dissolution of Commissions Paragraph 2 of the Schedule was revoked and Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Order 2007 (S.I. 2007/2602) 709W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 710W

Regulations revoked Revoking instrument Comments

The Education (Miscellaneous Amendments relating Regulation 3 was revoked to Safeguarding Children) (England) Regulations2009 (S.I. 2009/1924) The General Teaching Council for England Revoked (Additional Functions) Order 2000 (S.I. 2000/2175) The General Teaching Council for England (Additional Functions) (Amendment) Order 2001 (S.I. 2001/1270) The General Teaching Council for England (Disciplinary Functions) Regulations 2001 (S.I. 2001/ 1268) The General Teaching Council for England The Education Act 2011 (Abolition of the GTCE Revoked (Disciplinary Functions) (Amendment) Regulations Consequential Amendments and Revocations) Order 2003 (S.I. 2003/1186) 2012 (S.I 2012/1153) The General Teaching Council for England (Disciplinary Functions) (Amendment) Regulations 2008 (S.I. 2008/3256) The General Teaching Council for England (Disciplinary Functions) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 (S.I. 2011/2785) The General Teaching Council for England (Registration of Teachers) Regulations 2000 (S.I. 2000/2176) The General Teaching Council for England (Registration of Teachers) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 (S.I. 2001/23) The General Teaching Council for England (Registration of Teachers) (Amendment No 2) Regulations 2001(S.I. 2001/1267) The General Teaching Council for England (Registration of Teachers) (Amendment) Regulations 2007 (S.I. 2007/1883) The General Teaching Council for England (Deduction of Fees) Regulations 2001 (S.I. 2001/3993) The General Teaching Council for England The Education Act 2011 (Abolition of the GTCE Revoked (Deduction of Fees) (Amendment) Regulations 2003 Consequential Amendments and Revocations) Order (S.I. 2003/985) 2012 (S.I. 2012/1153) The Education Act 2002 (School Teachers) Regulation 3 was revoked (Consequential Amendments, etc) (England) Regulations 2003 (S.I. 2003/2039) The Secretaries of State for Children, Schools and Paragraph 30 of the Schedule was revoked Families, for Innovation, Universities and Skills and for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Order 2007 (S.I. 2007/3224) The Secretary of State for Education Order 2010 (S.I. Paragraph 11 (d) of the Schedule were 2010/1836) revoked The General Teaching Council for England Revoked (Additional Functions) Order 2004 (S.I. 2004/1886) The General Teaching Council for England (Eligibility for Provisional Registration) Regulations 2008 (S.I. 2008/1884) The General Teaching Council (Registration of The whole instrument in so far as it applies Temporary Teachers from Relevant European States) in relation to England. (England and Wales) Regulations 2009 (S.I. 2009/ 3200) The Education (Publication of Proposals) (Sixth Form The Sixth Form College Corporations (Publication of Replaced by revoking Regulations save for College Corporations) (England) Regulations 2010 Proposals) (England) Regulations 2012 where, before 1 April 2012 the responsible (S.I. 2010/2609) local authority made a proposal to which section 33N of the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 applies. The Children Act 2004 Information Database The Children’s Act 2004 Information Database Revoked (England) Regulations 2007 (S.1. 2007/2182) (England) (Revocation) Regulations 2012 (2012/1278) The Children Act 2004 Information Database (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2010 (S.I. 2010/ 1213)

Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Two of the statutory instruments revoke existing Education what regulations his Department introduced legislation, three revoke and replace existing regulations, between 1 February 2012 and 31 May 2012; and at what 20 amend existing regulations and two are commencement cost to the public purse. [113995] orders which bring into force provisions of primary legislation (the Education Act 2011) and are not subject to parliamentary procedure. Tim Loughton [holding answer 27 June 2012]: In the period 1 February 2012 to 31 May 2012 the Department In some cases, the effect of a particular regulation for Education made 40 regulations and orders (statutory would be sufficient to warrant an impact assessment (in instruments). line with the rules set out by the Department for Business, 711W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 712W

Innovation and Skills). The impact assessment would would be little or no impact upon business, charities, include the cost to the frontline of implementing the voluntary bodies or the public sector. regulation. Where an impact assessment has been produced, this would be indicated in the Explanatory Memorandum The following statutory instruments were made and accompanying the regulation. In relation to those statutory came into force between 1 February 2012 and 31 May instruments listed as follows, it was envisaged that there 2012:

Title Made Laid In force

Children Act 2004 Information Database (England) (Revocation) 14 May 2012 — 15 May 2012 Regulations 2012 Education (Pupil Referral Units) (Application of Enactments) 1 May 2012 8 May 2012 31 May 2012 (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 Sixth Form College Corporations (Publication of Proposals) 30 April 2012 1 May 2012 22 May 2012 (England) Regulations 2012 Education Act 2011 (Abolition of the GTCE Consequential 25 April 2012 3 May 2012 25 May 2012 Amendments and Revocations) Order 2012 Wiltshire Council (Arrangements for the Provision of Suitable 18 April 2012 23 April 2012 18 May 2012 Education) Order 2012 Alternative Provision Academies and 16 to 19 Academies 29 March 2012 4 April 2012 1 May 2012 (Consequential Amendments to Subordinate Legislation) (England) Order 2012 Alternative Provision Academies (Consequential Amendments to 29 March 2012 — 1 April 2012 Acts) (England) Order 2012 Young People’s Learning Agency Abolition (Consequential 26 March 2012 3 April 2012 1 May 2012 Amendments to Subordinate Legislation) (England) Order 2012 Schools (Specification and Disposal of Articles) Regulations 2012 27 March 2012 — 1 April 2012 Education Act 2011 (Commencement No. 3 and Transitional and 22 March 2012 — 1 April 2012 Savings Provisions) Order 2012 Education (National Curriculum) (Key Stage 2 Assessment 14 March 2012 — 15 March 2012 Arrangements) (England) (Amendment) Order 2012 Education Act 2011 (Consequential Amendments to Subordinate 8 March 2012 9 March 2012 1 April 2012 Legislation) Order 2012 Education (Specified Work) (England) Regulations 2012 8 March 2012 9 March 2012 1 April 2012 Education (School Teachers’ Prescribed Qualifications, etc.) 5 March 2012 8 March 2012 1 April 2012 (Amendment) Order 2012 Consistent Financial Reporting (England) Regulations 2012 2 March 2012 8 March 2012 31 March 2012 Teachers’ Pensions (Amendment) Regulations 2012 2 March 2012 8 March 2012 1 April 2012 School Behaviour (Determination and Publicising of Measures in 29 February 2012 7 March 2012 1 April 2012 Academies) Regulations 2012 Teachers’ Disciplinary (England) Regulations 2012 28 February 2012 5 March 2012 1 April 2012 Education (Teacher Student Loans) (Repayment etc.) 28 February 2012 5 March 2012 1 April 2012 (Amendment) Regulations 2012 Education (Induction Arrangements for School Teachers) 28 February 2012 5 March 2012 1 April 2012 (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Education, Children’s Services 23 February 2012 29 February 2012 1 April 2012 and Skills (Fees and Frequency of Inspections) (Children’s Homes etc.) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 Public Interest Disclosure (Prescribed Persons) (Amendment) 21 February 2012 28 February 2012 22 March 2012 Order 2012 Education (School Teachers) (Qualifications and Appraisal) 8 March 2012 9 March 2012 1 April 2012 (Miscellaneous Amendments) (England) Regulations 2012 School Governance (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 17 February 2012 24 February 2012 17 March 2012 School Finance (England) Regulations 2012 8 February 2012 16 February 2012 15 March 2012

15 of the statutory instruments were made during the relevant period but come into force after 31 May 2012:

Title Made Laid In force

Adoption Agencies (Panel and Consequential Amendments) 28 May 2012 1 June 2012 1 September 2012 Regulations 2012 Education (Exemption from School Inspection) (England) 15 May 2012 18 May 2012 8 June 2012 Regulations 2012 Education (School Performance Information) (England) 14 May 2012 18 May 2012 8 June 2012 (Amendment) Regulations 2012 Education Act 2011 (Commencement No. 4 and Transitional and 12 April 2012 — 1 August 2012 Savings Provisions) Order 2012 School Information (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 19 April 2012 20 April 2012 1 September 2012 Education (Induction Arrangements for School Teachers) 18 April 2012 20 April 2012 1 September 2012 (England) Regulations 2012 713W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 714W

Title Made Laid In force

Education (Penalty Notices) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2 April 2012 16 April 2012 1 September 2012 2012 School Governance (Federations) (England) Regulations 2012 14 April 2012 19 April 2012 1 September 2012 School Governance (Constitution) (England) Regulations 2012 14 April 2012 19 April 2012 1 September 2012 School Discipline (Pupil Exclusions and Reviews) (England) 3 April 2012 13 April 2012 1 September 2012 Regulations 2012 Education (Charges for Early Years Provision) Regulations 2012 27 March 2012 3 April 2012 1 September 2012 Childcare (Early Years Register) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 26 March 2012 27 March 2012 1 September 2012 Early Years Foundation Stage (Welfare Requirements) Regulations 26 March 2012 27 March 2012 1 September 2012 2012 Early Years Foundation Stage (Learning and Development 26 March 2012 27 March 2012 1 September 2012 Requirements) (Amendment) Order 2012 School Teachers’ Incentive Payments (England) Order 2012 19 March 2012 26 March 2012 1 September 2012

Religion: GCSE Mr Gibb: The information requested can be found in the following table for 2004/05 to 2010/11. Data for Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Education earlier years can be provided only at disproportionate how many pupils took GCSE religious education in (a) cost. The Department has made no estimate of the South Swindon constituency and (b) England and number of pupils expected to take GCSE religious Wales in each year since 2002; and how many are studies in either 2012 or 2013. expected to take GCSE religious education in 2013. [111812]

Numbers and percentages of pupils at the end of key stage 41, 2 entering full GCSE religious studies and GSCE short course religious studies3 in South Swindon constituency4, South West region5 and England6 : 2004/05-2010/11—Coverage England7 2004/05 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11

South Swindon: Eligible pupils 1,149 1,180 1,436 1,370 1,363 1,320 1,291 Number entering full GCSE religious studies 42 38 215 211 206 235 241 Percentage entering full GCSE religious studies 3.7 3.2 15.0 15.4 15.1 17.8 18.7 Number entering GCSE short course religious 374 750 859 757 533 426 336 studies Percentage entering GCSE short course religious 32.6 63.6 59.8 55.3 39.1 32.3 26.0 studies

South West: Eligible pupils 57,379 58,108 57,968 57,593 56,607 56,926 55,540 Number entering full GCSE religious studies 8,958 10,298 10,234 10,670 12,152 13,112 15,127 Percentage entering full GCSE religious studies 15.6 17.7 17.7 18.5 21.5 23.0 27.2 Number entering GCSE short course religious 25,752 26,752 29,486 30,207 28,124 26,746 23,150 studies Percentage entering GCSE short course religious 44.9 46.0 50.9 52.4 49.7 47.0 41.7 studies

England: Eligible pupils 582,876 592,485 598,767 595,806 576,420 575,970 564,863 Number entering full GCSE religious studies 118,794 131,266 141,577 149,837 153,205 161,948 179,901 Percentage entering full GCSE religious studies 20.4 22.2 23.6 25.1 26.6 28.1 31.8 Number entering GCSE short course religious 213,266 224,998 233,485 235,901 225,067 215,473 188,034 studies Percentage entering GCSE short course religious 36.6 38.0 39.0 39.6 39.0 37.4 33.3 studies 1 Figures do not include pupils recently arrived from overseas. 2 Figures include all maintained schools (including CTCs and academies). 3 In some cases pupils have been entered into both the full and short GSCE religious studies and are therefore included in both sets of figures (around 200 pupils in 2004/05, less than 15 pupils in 2005/06 to 2008/09 and none in 2009/10 to 2010/11). 4 Parliamentary constituency figures are based on the postcode of the school. 5 Regional figures are based on the region of the local authority maintaining the school, or in the case of CTCs and academies, the local authority in whichthe school is situated. 6 England figures are the sum of all local authority figures. 7 Figures are given for England only as data for Wales is not available. Source: National Pupil Database (final data)

School: Standards Outstanding grade in Ofsted inspections in (i) England and (ii) South Swindon constituency in the last year. Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Education [111614] how many (a) schools and (b) academies were given an 715W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 716W

Mr Gibb: This question is a matter for Ofsted. HM academic year 2010/11 and the academic year 2011/12 up to 31 Chief Inspector, Sir Michael Wilshaw, has written to March 2012 in the South Swindon constituency and England. my hon. Friend, and a copy of his response has been In September 2009, Ofsted implemented a policy of more placed in the House Libraries. proportionate inspection using risk assessment as an aid to scheduling Letter from Sir Michael Wilshaw, dated 13 June 2012: the inspection of good and outstanding schools. We deliberately set out to inspect a greater proportion of previously satisfactory Your recent Parliamentary Question has been passed to me, as or inadequate schools each year and a smaller proportion of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for response. previously good or outstanding schools. Since 2005, maintained school inspections have been carried In September 2010, Ofsted deferred the inspections of previously out under section 5 of the Education Act 2005 and, more recently, outstanding schools and, as signalled in the Education Act 2011, the Education Act 2011. Ofsted records all judgements made by is no longer routinely inspecting previously outstanding schools. inspectors in section 5 inspections, including the judgement for These schools will not be inspected unless a complaint has been the overall effectiveness of the school. raised or the risk assessment process identifies that these schools Under section 5, Ofsted inspects maintained schools (nursery, would benefit from an inspection. primary, secondary and special schools and pupil referral units), state-funded independent schools such as academies and certain Accordingly, the sample of schools inspected during any given non-maintained special schools in England. All of these types of period is unlikely to be representative of the nation as a whole. schools have been included in this response. On 1 January 2012 Statistics covering the outcomes of ail inspections carried out Ofsted implemented a new school inspection framework for section 5 in each academic year can be found at: inspections. This includes a sharper focus on the judgements that http://www.ofsted.gov.uk/resources/advanced-resources- matter most and a continued drive to raise standards—particularly search/results/Maintained%20schools/2/a11/any/200/any in literacy. Table A shows the number of maintained-schools judged The most recent official statistics release covering the outcomes outstanding for overall effectiveness at their section 5 inspection of maintained school inspections carried out between 1 January during the academic year 2010/11 and the academic year 2011/12: 2012 and 31 March 2012 was. released on 12 June 2012 and can be up to 31 March 2012 in the South Swindon constituency and accessed at the same link. England. A copy of this reply has been sent to Nick Gibb MP, Minister Table B shows the number of academies judged outstanding of State for Schools, and will be placed in the Library of both for overall effectiveness at their section 5 inspection during the Houses.

Table A: Schools in England and South Swindon constituency judged outstanding for their overall effectiveness in each academic year 2010/11 and2011/12 (year to date) 2010/11 2011/12 (year to date) Number Number Percentage Number Number Percentage Region Phase1 inspected outstanding outstanding inspected outstanding outstanding

England Nursery 126 58 46 103 54 52 Primary 4,249 323 8 3,146 312 10 Secondary 894 126 14 632 83 13 Special 328 91 28 199 54 27 PRU 129 19 15 117 7 6 All schools 5,726 617 11 4,197 510 12

South Swindon Nursery 0 — — 0 — — Primary 7 1 14 6 1 17 Secondary 3 1 33 1 0 0 Special 1000—— PRU0—— 0—— All schools 11 2 18 7 1 14 1 Includes sponsor-led and converter academies as primary or secondary schools as appropriate. Table B: Academy schools in England and South Swindon constituency judged outstanding for their overall effectiveness in each academic year 2010/11 and 2011/12 (year to date) 2010/11 2011/12 (year to date) Number Number Percentage Number Number Percentage Region Academy type Phase inspected outstanding outstanding inspected outstanding outstanding

England Sponsor-led Secondary 64 12 19 65 11 17 Converter Primary 4 1 25 32 7 22 Secondary 7 3 43 87 26 30 Total academies 75 16 21 184 44 24

South Sponsor-led Secondary 0 — — 0 — — Swindon Converter Primary 1 1 100 0 — — Secondary0—— 0—— Total academies 1 1 100 0 — — 717W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 718W

Schools: Capital Investment Early indications are that teachers are feeling more positive about the standard of pupils’ behaviour in Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for schools. The ‘National Foundation for Educational Education what capital costs were associated with the Research Teacher Voice Omnibus February 2012 survey: (a) free schools and (b) Building Schools for the pupil behaviour’, published on 26 June, found that, of Future programmes. [114141] the teachers surveyed, more than three out of four (76%) said the standard of behaviour was ‘good’ or Mr Gibb [holding answer 28 June 2012]: In the two ‘very good’ in their schools. This is an increase of six financial years 2010-11 and 2011-12, £50.1 million in percentage points compared with the previous survey in capital spending has been allocated to establish new free 2008. More than four out of five teachers (85%) felt well schools. equipped to manage pupil behaviour. While these findings are encouraging, the survey also found that three out of Conventional capital grant allocated to the Building five (60%) of teachers asked felt that ‘negative pupil Schools for the Future (BSF) programme has totalled behaviour is driving teachers out of the profession’. £5.193 billion over the lifetime of the programme up to While this is a welcome decrease of eight percentage 31 March 2012. A further £1.11 billion will be spent to points from the 2008 survey, it shows there is still more complete the continuing projects within the BSF to do. The survey’s findings show how the Government’s programme. In addition, the capital equivalent of £3.105 work to back teachers in improving behaviour is starting billion has been, or is being, spent on BSF schools to deliver encouraging results. through the private finance initiative. Schools: News Corporation Schools: Complaints Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what discussions he had with (a) Rupert Education what training has been undertaken by (a) Murdoch and (b) other staff of News Corporation Ministers and (b) officials in his Department to assist and its subsidiaries on (i) the establishment of a school them in assessing complaints against schools. [111017] sponsored by News Corporation and (ii) education reform in England in the last 12 months. [106519] Tim Loughton: Ministers considering complaints against schools have been advised on individual cases. Officials Tim Loughton [holding answer 14 May 2012]: The considering school complaints receive training relevant Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. Friend to their policy area. Officials dedicated to handling the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), has provided complaints are either already trained or are receiving a details of meetings and discussions with Mr Murdoch broad range of complaint related training. and News Corporation executives within his evidence to the Leveson inquiry. This evidence is now available Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for on the inquiry’s website. Education how many complaints against (a) mainstream schools and (b) free schools and academies he estimates Teachers: Conditions of Employment his Department will process in the 2012-13 academic year. [111351] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps he plans to take to enable schools to remove Tim Loughton: The most recent analysis (Parents’ incompetent teachers from the classroom. [114665] and YoungPeople’s Complaints about Schools, published February 2012) carried out for the Department estimates Mr Gibb: We have made it easier for head teachers to (a) approximately 2,900 complaints may be received identify and tackle underperformance. per annum against mainstream schools. The Department On 13 January this year we announced new arrangements expects, based on previous experience, that a majority for dealing with teacher performance management and will not have followed the school’s own complaints capability. These will strip away much of the bureaucracy process. Consequently we will support the complainant and prescription of current arrangements, giving more by explaining their rights and redirecting their complaint. freedom to schools to determine their own arrangements. It is not possible to estimate how many complaints We have replaced lengthy model policies on performance against academies and free schools the Department will management and capability with one single model policy process in the coming year, as any prediction will only covering both. be possible when we know the number of academies These procedures are shorter and less complex than and free schools open during the period 2012-13. the current procedure and will make it possible, in some cases, for schools to dismiss under-performing teachers Schools: Discipline in about a term.

Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Teachers: Mathematics what assessment he has made of the implementation and effectiveness of the provisions relating to school Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for discipline in the Education Act 2011. [114666] Education what proportion of mathematics teachers in primary schools have a post-GCSE qualification in Mr Gibb: This Government has, through the Education mathematics. [114639] Act 2011, taken action to restore teachers’ authority in the classroom by strengthening their powers to promote Mr Gibb [holding answer 2 July 2012]: The information good behaviour and maintain discipline. requested is not collected centrally. 719W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 720W

Analysis carried out by the Department from the Year ending 31 March Pensions paid (£ billion) November 2010 School Workforce Census showed that 5.3% of primary school teachers held a relevant post 2008 4.73 A-level qualification in mathematics. Qualification 2009 5.11 information including subject was received for 86% of 2010 5.56 all primary teachers in service. 2011 5.84 2012 6.28 Teachers: Pay 1 2003 figures restated due to the introduction of FRS 17. 2 2006 to 2012 figures are net of recoveries and overpayments. Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many and what proportion of teachers Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for received salary increases in 2012 as a result of Education if he will estimate the total annual saving of progressing up the pay scale. [114251] his proposed changes to teachers’ pensions in (a) 10, (b) 20 and (c) 30 years time. [114700] Mr Gibb: Information for 2012 is not available because teachers are not due to receive any pay progression until Mr Gibb: The proposed changes to the Teachers’ September of this year. Information relating to pay Pension Scheme have been designed to remain within progression (for previous years) at a national level can the cost parameters set out by Her Majesty’s Treasury be provided only at disproportionate cost following recommendations contained in the Hutton report. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for At this point the Department is working to agree the Education whether his Department plans to take steps detail of the scheme design, which will be implemented to deregulate teachers’ pay. [114667] in 2015. Once the scheme design is finalised a valuation will be competed and this would help to allow us to Mr Gibb: The Secretary of State for Education, my provide an estimate of savings. right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Gove), remit letter to the independent School Teachers’ Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Review Body (STRB) sets out his aim of reforming the Education what the total liabilities of the Teachers’ teachers’ pay system in order to raise the status of the Pension Scheme were in each year since 2000. [114702] profession and contribute to improving the standard of teaching in our schools. Mr Gibb: The information requested has been included The Secretary of State’s evidence to the STRB, which in the following table. The figures have been taken from has been published on the Department’s website, makes the Teachers’ Pension Scheme (England and Wales) the case for changing the current system and provides Annual Accounts and are the only annual liabilities some potential options for the STRB’s consideration. available. It is important to note that the liabilities in the The STRB is currently consulting with a wide range of accounts are calculated using different assumptions and stakeholders and is due to submit its recommendations methodologies to those used to calculate the liabilities to the Secretary of State in the autumn. for the regular actuarial valuation of the scheme. As a result the calculation for the annual accounts may produce Teachers: Pensions a figure that is higher or lower than the figure calculated for the valuation. Annual variations in the financial Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for assumptions used can result in large fluctuations in the Education how much has been paid out in pensions to liabilities produced for the accounts. retired teachers under the Teachers’ Pension Scheme in each year since 2000. [114699] Year ending 31 March Liabilities (£ billion) 2001 98.0 Mr Gibb: The information requested has been included 2002 103.0 in the following table. The figures have been taken from 2003 108.0 the Teachers’ Pension Scheme (England and Wales) 2004 113.0 Annual Accounts and represent the Teachers’ Pension 2005 119.7 Scheme expenditure with regard to the payment of 2006 143.0 pensions. Dependants’ pensions are included within the figures as it is not possible to identify these separately. 2007 181.3 Although dependants’ pensions may not be paid directly 2008 176.5 to teachers, they do count toward the liabilities of the 2009 168.6 Scheme. 2010 223.9 2011 192.4 Year ending 31 March Pensions paid (£ billion) 2012 200.6 2000 3.14 Prior to 2001 the annual accounts did not include 2001 3.19 scheme liabilities. Liabilities were included from 2001 as 2002 3.37 a result of a change in accounting practices. 2003 13.97 2004 4.19 Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005 4.50 Education what the average lump sum payment made 2006 24.13 to retiring teachers is for teachers who have been 2007 4.40 employed full-time for 30 years or more. [114704] 721W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 722W

Mr Gibb: A person who joined the Teachers’ Pension Lump sum payments (£) Scheme (TPS) before 2007 builds a pension of 1/80 of their salary for each year of service and 3/80s as a lump 252,375 sum. Therefore a typical classroom teacher, who has 30 237,372 years service and a final salary of £36,800, will receive an average pension of £13,800 and an automatic lump 236,890 sum of £41,400. 214,783 A person who joined the TPS after 2007 builds a 208,677 pension of 1/60 of their salary for each year of service 207,420 but do not build an automatic lump sum. They do have 207,409 the option though to give up part of their pension in 205,434 exchange for a lump sum. If they choose to do so they exchange up to 25% of their pension value and receive a 198,860 lump sum of £12 for every £1 of pension. 195,331 In this case a typical classroom teacher, who has 195,167 30 years service and a final salary of £36,800, will 186,255 receive an average pension of £18,400. If this teacher 180,787 chooses to give up the maximum amount in exchange 180,300 for a lump sum they would receive a lump sum of £78,857 and a pension of £11,829. 179,632 173,581 On average teachers retire before they have 30 years of service. In the year ending 31 March 2012, 55% of 173,313 teachers retiring at the normal pension age retired with 171,490 less than 30 years service. The average lump sum paid 167,792 out was £37,000. Year ending 31 March 2009 316,070 Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for 283,867 Education how much has been paid out in lump sum payments to members of the Teachers’ Pension Scheme 237,829 in each year since 2000. [114705] 231,578 223,056 Mr Gibb: The information requested on lump sums 213,251 has been included in the following table. The figures 201,400 have been taken from the Teachers’ Pension Scheme 197,480 (England and Wales) Annual Accounts, adjusted to exclude death grants paid out. 196,904 195,463 Year ending 31 March Lump sums paid (£ billion) 192,004 2000 0.29 190,196 2001 0.37 189,947 2002 0.41 184,544 2003 0.48 184,309 2004 0.55 178,819 2005 0.69 2006 0.77 177,631 2007 0.90 176,868 2008 1.03 171,737 2009 1.18 170,907 2010 1.20 2011 1.44 2012 1.53 Year ending 31 March 2010 337,854 328,730 280,376 Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the 20 largest lump sum payments 262,418 made to members of the Teachers’ Pension Scheme 257,430 were in each of the last five years. [114706] 257,414 240,275 Mr Gibb: The 20 largest lump sum entitlements paid 234,897 to members for each of the last five financial years are provided in the following table. 234,316 220,910 Lump sum payments (£) 212,812 Year ending 31 March 2008 262,371 212,276 723W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 724W

Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Lump sum payments (£) Education how much his Department has paid towards 210,791 teachers’ pensions through employer pension contributions [114707] 208,086 in each year since 2000. 201,737 Mr Gibb: The following table provided details of the 201,453 employer pension contributions paid into the scheme 198,891 since 2000. The figures are based on the contributions 198,131 shown in the Teachers’ Pension Scheme (England and 195,365 Wales) Annual Accounts, adjusted to exclude contributions paid by members and for contributions paid into the 194,564 scheme by the independent schools sector.

Year ending 31 March 2011 370,429 Employer contributions 300,164 Year ending 31 March (£ billion) 293,885 2000 0.92 286,159 2001 1.00 283,629 2002 1.10 2003 1.32 276,319 2004 2.29 266,489 2005 2.35 263,137 2006 2.43 258,352 2007 2.58 246,673 2008 2.75 238,326 2009 2.86 2010 2.93 236,680 2011 3.01 236,535 2012 2.98 234,984 234,252 It has been assumed that 10% of the contributions 228,033 received relate to the independent sector for each year. This is in line with current levels. 222,132 216,070 Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for 215,707 Education how much the Government will pay towards 204,205 teachers’ pensions in employer pension contributions in each of the next 10 years. [114708]

Year ending 31 March 2012 400,146 Mr Gibb: Contribution forecasts have only been 328,698 calculated to year ending 31 March 2017. These are 307,634 included in the following table and have been taken 289,098 from the latest forecasts provided to the Office for 287,983 Budgetary Responsibility (OBR). The OBR forecasts have been adjusted to take into account contributions 271,998 received from the independent sector. These figures do 259,600 not taken into account contribution changes that might 244,644 occur as a result of changes to the Teachers’ Pension 243,106 Scheme as these are not yet known. 243,065 Employer contributions 239,808 Year ending 31 March (£ billion) 239,367 2013 3.00 233,526 2014 3.03 232,475 2015 3.11 227,821 2016 3.20 224,857 2017 3.30 221,625 It has been assumed that 10% of the contributions 219,492 received relate to the independent sector for each year. 218,601 This is in line with current levels. 215,617 Truancy: West Midlands

These figures exclude lump sum payments made as a Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for result of members sacrificing future pension payments Education whether his Department has made an assessment in favour of an additional lump sum payment. of truancy rates in (a) primary schools and (b) secondary 725W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 726W schools in (i) Coventry, (ii) Coventry North East absence rate. This includes family holidays taken during constituency and (iii) the West Midlands in each of the term time but not agreed by the head teacher, late last five years; and what steps he is taking to reduce arrival at school, and any absence that is not authorised. truancy rates. [114107] Information on unauthorised absence from 2006/07 Mr Gibb [holding answer 28 June 2012]: The closest to 2010/11 is shown in the table. measure we have to assess truancy rates is the unauthorised

State-funded primary and secondary schools1, 2, 3: Unauthorised absence rates. Academic years 2006/07-2010/11 (First 2.5 terms of the academic year). England, the West Midlands region, Coventry local authority and Coventry North East parliamentary constituency Unauthorised absence rate England West Midlands Coventry local authority Coventry North East parliamentary constituency State- State- State- State- funded State-funded funded State-funded funded State-funded funded State-funded primary secondary primary secondary primary secondary primary secondary schools1, 2 schools1, 3 schools1, 2 schools1, 3 schools1, 2 schools1, 3 schools1, 2 schools1, 3

2006/07 0.5 1.5 0.5 1.4 0.4 1.4 0.6 1.6 2007/08 0.6 1.5 0.6 1.4 0.4 1.4 0.6 1.7 2008/09 0.6 1.5 0.7 1.4 0.6 1.5 0.9 1.8 2009/10 0.7 1.4 0.8 1.4 0.7 1.5 1.0 1.8 2010/11 0.7 1.4 0.8 1.4 0.8 1.3 1.1 1.8 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes primary academies. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies. 4 The number of sessions missed due to unauthorised absence expressed as a percentage of the total number of possible sessions. Source: School Census

The latest data on absence, for the school year, is Tim Loughton: Official estimates of the number and published as Statistical First Release 04/2012 ’Pupil proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds not in education, Absence in Schools in England, Including Pupil employment or training (NEET) in England are published Characteristics: 2010/11’ at by the Department in a Statistical First Release (SFR) http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001060/ each June and can be found on the Department’s website: index.shtml http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001072/ index.shtml These estimates cannot be broken down below national World War I: Curriculum level. However, local authorities collect information on the number and proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds NEET Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for in each local area, which are published annually of the Education if he will make it his policy that the history DFE website: of the First World War forms part of the national http://www.education.gov.uk/16to19/participation/neet/ curriculum during the four years of the commemoration a0064101/strategies-for-16-to-18-year-olds-not-in-education- of the centenary; and if he will make a statement. employment-or-training-neet [114840] Figures for the West Midlands and England at the end of 2011 are shown in the following table. Mr Gibb: World war one is currently a compulsory part of the history curriculum in secondary schools. We 16 to 18-year-olds NEET are reviewing the national curriculum with the aim of Number Proportion (percentage) focussing it on the body of essential knowledge in key subjects that all children need to learn. As part of the West 12,170 6.2 review we are considering which subjects, beyond English, Midlands mathematics, science and PE, should be part of the England 104,080 6.1 national curriculum in future and at which key stages. As part of our national commemoration of the centenary Due to methodological differences, the local authority of world war one we will encourage all children and estimates of NEET are lower than the official national young people to understand its significance as an important estimates. part of our historical and cultural inheritance. Young People: Yorkshire and Humberside Young People: West Midlands Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for how many and what proportion of young people aged Education what comparative assessment he has made (a) 16, (b) 17 and (c) 18 years living in (i) York and (ii) of the proportion of young people (a) in the West Yorkshire and the Humber were in (A) full-time education Midlands and (b) nationally who are not in education, and (B) full-time education, employment or training in employment and training. [115016] (1) 1992 and (2) each year since 1992. [111423] 727W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 728W

Tim Loughton: Official estimates of the number and Age 161 Age 17 Age 18 proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds in full-time education and work based learning in England are published by As at December Count % Count % Count % the Department in a Statistical First Release (SFR) 2009 38,174 93 57,763 89 51,457 88 each June and can be found on the Department’s website: 2010 38,384 94 57,196 91 53,718 83 http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001011/ 20112,3 35,782 94 52,293 93 48,381 81 index.shtml 1 Excludes young people aged 16 who are below the compulsory These estimates do not include young people undertaking school leaving age. employer-funded training or employment. However, 2 Figures for 2011 relate to the local authority where the young person resides; earlier figures relate to the area where the young- information on a wider range of activities can be extracted person was in education. from the databases maintained by local authorities to 3 Excludes East Riding of Yorkshire, who did not supply data. record young people’s participation in education, training and employment. Figures for young people aged (a) 16, Youth Custody (b) 17 and (c) 18 years in (i) York and (ii) Yorkshire and the Humber are shown in the following tables. Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for These data were not collected at local authority level Education how many secure children’s homes have (a) before 2005. opened and (b) closed in each year since 2003; what the reason for opening or closing was in each case; how Age 161 Age 17 Age 18 many homes remain open; and what plans his Department As at December Count % Count % Count % has to open or close any in the future. [111514] York: 16,17 and Tim Loughton: In 2003 there were 28 secure children’s 18-year-olds in homes in England. Since then no new homes have full-time education opened, while 12 homes have closed, of the 16 homes 2005 1,513 81 2,025 75 1,360 57 now in operation, 15 of these are provided by local 2006 1,584 83 2,054 76 1,641 59 authorities and the other by a charitable organisation. 2007 1,752 86 2,279 78 1,570 62 The following table shows the number of homes that 2008 1,643 88 2,216 79 1,558 56 closed in each year since 2003. 2009 1,328 92 2,056 87 1,458 67 2010 1,869 93 2,465 89 1,830 71 Closure of secure children’s homes 2003-12 20112 1,130 87 1,635 82 1,247 65 Number of closures 2003 1 York: 16, 17 and 2004 3 18-year-olds in 2005 2 full-time education, employment or 2006 1 training 2007 .2 2005 1,745 94 2,494 93 2,088 87 2008 1 2006 1,794 94 2,513 93 2,162 88 2009 2 2007 1,931 94 2,703 92 2,385 94 2010 0 2008 1,780 95 2,585 92 2,293 82 2011 0 2009 1,378 96 2,241 95 1,921 88 2010 1,959 97 2,633 95 2,268 88 The Department does not keep a record of the reasons why individual homes have closed. But our understanding 20112 1,229 94 1,841 93 1,645 86 is that in most cases homes closed as the local authorities managing them reached a view that changes in professional practice and in how services were commissioned and Yorkshire and the Humber: 16, 17 funded meant that the provision of these very specialised and 18-year-olds in high cost services ceased to be financially viable. full-time education The approval of the Secretary of State for Education, 2005 30,316 71 41,163 62 30,534 47 my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath 2006 32,457 73 41,842 64 32,017 49 (Michael Gove), must be secured before any children’s 2007 33,452 75 45,084 67 32,760 51 homes can provide secure accommodation but the 2008 34,465 78 46,103 69 33,706 51 Department is not directly responsible for delivering 2009 33,645 82 48,142 74 36,214 56 these services. Any decision to establish a new secure 2010 34,285 84 48,396 77 38,169 59 children’s home would be for local authorities or other 20112,3 31,842 84 44,829 82 36,534 61 potential providers of these services based on their assessment of the future market for these services. Yorkshire and the Humber: 16, 17 and 18-year-olds in full-time education, CABINET OFFICE employment or training Emigration 2005 37,569 88 53,946 81 49,753 76 2006 39,571 89 54,264 83 50,965 78 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 2007 40,142 90 57,912 86 51,667 80 Office how many people emigrated from the UK in each 2008 40,705 92 58,493 87 52,752 82 of the last five years. [115500] 729W Written Answers4 JULY 2012 Written Answers 730W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Mr Hurd: Social impact bonds are a useful new tool responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have for public service delivery, and the Government is keen asked the authority to reply. to see more of them. The Cabinet Office is promoting Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated July 2012: the development of more social impact bonds in central As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I and local government. have been asked to respond to your recent Parliamentary Question The Ministry of Justice launched the world’s first asking how many people emigrated from the UK in each of the social impact bond in 2010, aiming to reduce reoffending last five years. (115500) among short-sentence prisoners released from Peterborough The Office for National Statistics (ONS) produces estimates of prison. The return for investors will depend on the long-term international migration, primarily based on the International degree of success in reducing reconvictions, up to an Passenger Survey (IPS). overall cap of around £8 million. The results for the Please find following a table showing emigration from the UK first cohort will be known in 2014. The Department for for the last five years: Work and Pensions is supporting further social impact Long-term International Migration: Emigration from the UK, 2006 to bonds under its Innovation Fund, targeting disadvantaged 2010 young people and those at risk of disadvantage. Six Estimate social investment projects have so far been selected for support. The available funding is up to £30 million over 2006 398,000 three years from 2012. 2007 341,000 2008 427,000 Public Sector: Procurement 2009 368,000 2010 339,000 Stephen McPartland: To ask the Minister for the Long Term International Migration (LTIM) estimates are Cabinet Office what steps he is taking to encourage available on the ONS website: electronic procurement and invoicing across the public http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/long-term- sector as a means of delivering cost savings and efficiency international-migration/november-2010/long-term- gains. [114822] international-migration-2-series.zip Please refer to Table 2.01a ″LTIM Citizenship 1991 - 2010″, Mr Maude: The Government fully supports measures which provides estimates of the number of people who have that simplify and streamline the procurement process, emigrated from the UK in each of the last five years. including the use of electronic procurement and invoicing. The IPS migrant data provides the foundation of the LTIM Under the principles of Lean Sourcing, all central estimates with adjustments for asylum seekers, people whose Government procurements are required to use the Official intentions change with regard to their length of stay, and for Journal of the European Union (OJEU) compliant e-sourcing international migration to and from Northern Ireland. tools to help manage the full process. If an organisation Long-term international migration data produced by the ONS does not have access to its own e-sourcing tools, it can applies the UN definition of someone who moves from their use those available through the Government Procurement country of previous residence for a period of at least a year, Service. irrespective of citizenship. Additionally, issuing and responding to bids via our Government: Pay Dynamic Marketplace is done electronically, making the procurement process quicker and more cost-effective. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Voluntary Work Office what guidance his Department has issued to Government departments and non-departmental public bodies on paying a living wage to all employees Mr Buckland: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet in the last 12 months. [114758] Office what recent estimate his Department has made of the proportion of the population involved in Mr Maude: Departments, agencies and non-departmental volunteering. [114990] public bodies have delegated authority to determine reward arrangements for their own staff below the Mr Hurd: The Data from the Citizenship Survey, last senior civil service. These arrangements should meet conducted by DCLG in 2010-11, shows: their business needs and enable them to recruit, retain 25% take part in formal volunteering (which is classed as and motivate their workforce. giving unpaid help through groups, clubs or organisations to benefit other people or the environment) once a month; Public Expenditure 39% take part in formal volunteering once a year; 29% take part in informal volunteering (which is classed as Nadine Dorries: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet giving unpaid help as an individual to people who are not Office whether his Department has any plans to fund relatives) once a month; social impact bonds. [114778] 55% take part in informal volunteering once a year.

9MC Ministerial Corrections4 JULY 2012 Ministerial Corrections 10MC

The highest salary was paid to the director general in Ministerial Correction the Government Olympic Executive. Their remuneration details are published annually in the Department’s Annual Wednesday 4 July 2012 Reports and Accounts. This information is also disclosed on the Department’s transparency website. We do not hold this information for our arm’s length CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT bodies. Accordingly, I have asked their chief executives to respond to the hon. Member. Pay Copies of the replies will be placed in the Libraries Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, of both Houses. Olympics, Media and Sport what the (a) highest, (b) The correct answer should have been: median, (c) median full-time equivalent and (d) lowest full-time equivalent salary was paid by (i) his Department and (ii) its public bodies in (A) 2010-11, (B) 2011-12 John Penrose: The information requested is set out in and (C) 2012-13. [112471] the following table: [Official Report, 20 June 2012, Vol. 546, c. 1011W.] Letter of correction from John Penrose: £ An error has been identified in the written answer given Lowest Median to the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) on Highest Lowest FTE Median FTE 20 June 2012. Since publication, it has been noted that 2010-11 228,883 6,827 19,436 34,498 33,034 figures in two of the column titles, ‘Lowest’ and ‘Lowest 2011-12 228,883 3,901 19,836 35,481 34,729 FTE’, in the table provided in the answer, were the 2012-13 228,883 3,901 19,836 35,582 34,769 wrong way around. The full answer given was as follows: The highest salary was paid to the Director General Mr Vaizey: The information requested is set out in in the Government Olympic Executive. Their remuneration the following table: details are published annually in the Department’s Annual Reports and Accounts. This information is also disclosed £ on the Department’s transparency website. Lowest Median We do not hold this information for its arm’s length Highest Lowest FTE Median FTE bodies. Accordingly, I have asked their chief executives 2010-11 228,883 19,436 6,827 34,498 33,034 to respond to the hon. Member. 2011-12 228,883 19,836 3,901 35,481 34,729 Copies of the replies will be placed in the Libraries 2012-13 228,883 19,836 3,901 35,582 34,769 of both Houses.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 4 July 2012

Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 899 NORTHERN IRELAND—continued Banking Reform...... 901 Security Situation...... 907 Economic Development...... 905 Welfare Reform...... 900 Fuel Laundering ...... 899 Inward Investment ...... 903 PRIME MINISTER ...... 908 Londonderry (City of Culture) ...... 906 Engagements...... 908 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 4 July 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 53WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 57WS Employee Ownership ...... 53WS Late Night Drinking ...... 57WS Serious Organised Crime Agency (Annual Report CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 54WS and Accounts)...... 58WS S4C Governance ...... 54WS TRANSPORT ...... 58WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency...... 58WS AFFAIRS...... 55WS Forestry and Woodland Policy in England TREASURY ...... 53WS (Independent Report) ...... 55WS Public Service Pensions ...... 53WS

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 56WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 59WS Syria...... 56WS Access to Work ...... 59WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 4 July 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 688W DEFENCE—continued Adult Education: Devon ...... 688W Armed Forces: Uniforms ...... 679W Business ...... 689W Cyprus: Military Bases...... 680W Coal Fired Power Stations: Export Credit Iran...... 680W Guarantees ...... 690W Sovereignty: Scotland...... 680W EU Internal Trade...... 691W Warships ...... 681W Manufacturing Industries: Motor Vehicles...... 691W World War II: Military Decorations...... 682W Origin Marking...... 691W Overseas Students: EU Countries ...... 692W Overseas Students: Loans ...... 695W EDUCATION...... 696W Academies: Complaints ...... 696W CABINET OFFICE...... 728W Adoption ...... 697W Emigration...... 728W CAFCASS ...... 697W Government: Pay ...... 729W Children in Care: Disclosure of Information ...... 697W Public Expenditure...... 729W Computers ...... 698W Public Sector: Procurement...... 730W Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats...... 698W Voluntary Work ...... 730W Curriculum ...... 699W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 699W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 645W Disciplinary Proceedings...... 699W Empty Property: Bedfordshire ...... 645W Education Act 2011...... 700W Government Procurement Card ...... 646W Education: Assessments ...... 700W Housing: Expenditure ...... 646W English Language: GCSE ...... 700W Public Expenditure...... 647W Free Schools...... 701W Public Expenditure: Bedfordshire...... 647W Free Schools: Disadvantaged ...... 701W GCSE ...... 701W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 659W Government Procurement Card ...... 703W Direct Selling ...... 659W Health Insurance...... 703W Intercountry Adoption: Belarus...... 703W DEFENCE...... 678W Pay...... 704W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 678W Primary Education: Inspections...... 704W Armed Forces: Pay...... 678W Procurement...... 704W Armed Forces: Redundancy...... 679W Publications ...... 705W Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION—continued INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 696W Pupil Exclusions: Essex ...... 706W Developing Countries: Coal Fired Power Stations . 696W Recruitment ...... 705W Regulation ...... 707W Religion: GCSE ...... 713W JUSTICE...... 678W School: Standards ...... 713W Members: Correspondence ...... 678W Schools: Capital Investment...... 717W Mental Health...... 678W Schools: Complaints ...... 717W Schools: Discipline...... 717W Schools: News Corporation ...... 718W Teachers: Conditions of Employment...... 718W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 662W Teachers: Mathematics...... 718W Cross-border Trafficking...... 662W Teachers: Pay ...... 719W Tourism...... 662W Teachers: Pensions ...... 719W Truancy: West Midlands ...... 724W World War I: Curriculum...... 725W TRANSPORT ...... 669W Young People: West Midlands...... 725W Atos ...... 669W Young People: Yorkshire and Humberside...... 726W Aviation ...... 669W Youth Custody...... 728W Energy...... 670W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 671W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Motor Vehicles: Exhaust Emissions ...... 674W AFFAIRS...... 682W Pay...... 675W Animal Welfare: Circuses...... 682W Staff ...... 676W Gangmasters...... 683W Thameslink Railway Line...... 677W Government Procurement Card ...... 683W Litter...... 684W Livestock: Exports ...... 684W TREASURY ...... 657W Meat ...... 685W Aggregates Levy...... 657W Regulation ...... 685W EU Budget ...... 658W Sausages: Lincolnshire ...... 686W Income Tax and National Insurance ...... 658W Water Charges...... 686W Manchester Declaration...... 658W Motor Vehicles: Insurance ...... 658W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 660W Wood ...... 659W Argentina...... 660W Burma...... 660W Colombia ...... 661W Manchester Declaration...... 662W WALES...... 648W Business: Capital Investment...... 648W Capital Allowances ...... 648W HEALTH...... 662W Construction...... 648W Abortion ...... 662W Disability Living Allowance...... 648W Accident and Emergency Departments: Greater Hotels ...... 648W Manchester ...... 664W Income Tax ...... 649W Cancer ...... 663W Inflation: Standard of Living...... 649W Health: Rural Areas ...... 665W Redundancy: Public Sector ...... 649W School Milk ...... 665W Social Rented Housing...... 650W Social Security Benefits...... 650W Strategic Defence and Security Review ...... 650W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 652W Taxation...... 650W Asylum ...... 652W Taxis ...... 651W Asylum: Children...... 652W Unemployment ...... 651W Council of Europe Convention On the Protection VAT ...... 651W of Children Against Sexual Exploitation and Welfare Tax Credits...... 652W Sexual Ab ...... 653W Crime: Maps ...... 653W Dispersal Orders ...... 653W Essex Police Authority ...... 653W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES ...... 645W Essex Police: Sick Leave ...... 654W Mental Health ...... 645W EU Justice and Home Affairs...... 654W Gating Orders ...... 655W Government Procurement Card ...... 655W Graffiti...... 655W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 666W HM Inspectorate of Constabulary ...... 656W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 666W Impact Assessments ...... 656W Employment and Support Allowance: East Independent Police Complaints Commission...... 656W Lothian...... 666W Mephedrone...... 656W Employment Schemes ...... 666W Press Releases ...... 657W Housing Benefit: Young People...... 667W UK Border Agency ...... 657W Pensioners: British Nationals Abroad ...... 667W Personal Independence Payment...... 667W Personal Independence Payment: Autism...... 667W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 669W Remploy...... 668W Times of Sittings...... 669W Social Security Benefits...... 669W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 4 July 2012

Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 9MC Pay...... 9MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 11 July 2012

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 4 July 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 899] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Prime Minister

NHS Annual Report and Care Objectives [Col. 919] Statement—(Mr Lansley)

Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007 [Col. 937] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Nicholas Brown)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Estimates (1st allotted day) [Col. 939] UK Border Agency UK-Turkey Relations Estimates agreed to

Consolidated Fund [Col. 1019] Bill presented, and read the First time

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism [Col. 1020] Motion—(James Brokenshire)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 1028]

Navitus Wind Farm, Swanage [Col. 1030] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Police [Col. 1039] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Education [Col. 1042] Motion, on a deferred Division, agreed to

Westminster Hall Aviation [Col. 249WH] Voluntary Sector [Col. 276WH] West Bank (Area C) [Col. 285WH] Nuclear Power [Col. 309WH] Cruise Market (Competition) [Col. 317WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 53WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 645W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 9MC]