Wednesday Volume 547 4 July 2012 No. 25 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Wednesday 4 July 2012 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 899 4 JULY 2012 900 House of Commons Welfare Reform 2. Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Wednesday 4 July 2012 (Lab): What assessment he has made of the effects of welfare reform on Northern Ireland. [114371] The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen PRAYERS Paterson): The reforms that we have introduced give us a rare opportunity to transform our welfare system into one that is fair to all, looks after the most vulnerable in [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] society, and above all, always rewards work. Mr Clarke: In view of recent criticisms of the Work Oral Answers to Questions programme and the Prime Minister’s view that housing benefit for the under-25s should be discontinued, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us what the Government’s NORTHERN IRELAND policy is for youngsters? Is it to create jobs or simply to tolerate their exploitation? The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Paterson: I think the right hon. Gentleman Fuel Laundering underestimates the fact that the issue is devolved, and we are working closely with the devolved Minister with 1. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): What responsibility in this area and other Ministers in the discussions his Department has had with HM Treasury Executive on the arrangements which will be debated on loss of revenue as a result of fuel laundering in shortly as the Bill is taken through the Assembly. It is Northern Ireland. [114370] very important that local circumstances are taken into account so that the Bill that emerges from the Assembly The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen suits the circumstances in Northern Ireland. Paterson): My Department has regular discussions with HM Treasury on a wide range of issues. Fuel fraud is Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): When does primarily an excise offence and, therefore, an excepted my right hon. Friend expect the Welfare Reform Bill to matter that falls to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, be introduced by the Executive? which works closely with the Department of Justice for Northern Ireland and its counterparts in Ireland. Mr Paterson: I am in regular contact with Nelson Sammy Wilson: Despite the fact that over the past six McCausland, the relevant Minister, and he is optimistic years more than £2 billion has been lost in revenue as a that he will stick to the schedule, which will enable result of criminal activities through fuel laundering, Northern Ireland to come on stream, as planned, with HMRC has taken only 28 cases to court, and there has the Department for Work and Pensions here. been only one custodial sentence, which was suspended. Does the Secretary of State believe that that is an Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Many people in adequate response from HMRC or the court system in Northern Ireland view changes caused by welfare reform Northern Ireland? with increasing concern. Northern Ireland has had 30 years of a terrorist campaign. That has led to many Mr Paterson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his people suffering disability, both physical and mental; question and I appreciate his knowledge of this subject, 15,000 people in Northern Ireland are on incapacity as Minister of Finance and Personnel. He makes a very benefit and employment and support allowance, and good point, which I have discussed with David Ford, 180,000 people are on disability living allowance. Can the Minister of Justice. We have agreed that we should the Secretary of State assure us that every step will be work together so that Northern Ireland sentences can taken to ensure that the unique position of Northern be appealed against if considered too lenient. Ireland is taken into account when it comes to the Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): In the benefits system? Select Committee’s recent report, we identified as a major problem the fact that a marker had not been Mr Paterson: Nobody underestimates the terrible developed sufficiently quickly. Has the Secretary of damage the troubles did to people physically and mentally, State had any discussions with HMRC about the but it is worth reflecting on the fact that high rates of development of that marker, which would make fuel DLA are not unique to Northern Ireland; Merthyr fraud and laundering far more difficult? Tydfil has a rate of 13%, which is very similar to that of Belfast. What I think is important is that for the first Mr Paterson: I am grateful to the Chairman of the time each person will be treated as an individual, his Select Committee for his question and congratulate him circumstances will be taken into account and rehabilitation, on a very interesting report, which showed that real re-education and training will be offered. That has not progress had been made—£250 million lost in forgone come about before. revenue down to £70 million, which is a major improvement. He makes a very good point about marking. There is an Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): Given HMRC strategy and there is also a memorandum of that many benefit claimants in Northern Ireland have understanding that has been signed with the Irish Revenue their payments paid directly into Ulster bank and, Commissioners. We keep in close touch on this matter. because of the ongoing debacle caused by the IT problems, 901 Oral Answers4 JULY 2012 Oral Answers 902 have therefore been unable to access their only source of Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): On that income and their own money, what assurance can the point about Ulster bank and the failure of IT, I have Secretary of State give that he has had robust discussions listened carefully to what the Minister has said, but is it with RBS, his colleagues in the Treasury and the not frankly outrageous and unacceptable that 15 days Department for Work and Pensions, and the Northern after the problem first appeared, individuals, households Ireland Executive, to find a long-term solution to this and businesses still cannot access their money in the agonising problem for many people, which has heaped normal way? Can he outline in more detail what he and on them misery upon misery? his colleagues in the Treasury are doing to provide a little more flexibility for those facing cash-flow problems? Mr Paterson: The hon. Lady is absolutely right to raise the very real problems that people both in and out Mr Swire: I understand that the right hon. Gentleman of work are suffering due to the IT breakdown. I raised and some of this colleagues are meeting Ulster bank the matter with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and and RBS this afternoon to represent the views of their the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and constituents, and rightly so. Let us not underestimate Skills yesterday. Sir Philip Hampton, the chairman of this. There are people in the Northern Ireland Office RBS, was in Northern Ireland on Monday and my right who cannot get money either, so this is something very hon. Friend the Minister of State talked with him close to many of us. He will be aware of the press yesterday and is keeping in close touch. Ultimately, this release that RBS issued this morning. It is fair to point is a problem for RBS to resolve internally, through out in my conversation yesterday with Sir Philip Hampton, Ulster bank, by getting the computer technology right, the chairman of RBS, he told me that they would but the hon. Lady is right to raise the matter. This is “treat our customers properly and fairly” causing horrendous problems not just for benefit claimants, and that the bank will but for those in regular employment. “compensate fully for financial loss”. We shall hold the bank to that undertaking. Banking Reform Mr Dodds: I am grateful to the Minister for that 3. Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): What discussions answer and for raising the issue of compensation, but he has had with his ministerial colleagues on the likely does he agree that, as well as reimbursing customers for implications for Northern Ireland of banking reform direct costs, Ulster bank and RBS must ensure that and financial service regulation. [114372] where financial damage and loss has occurred, whether to a customer, either an individual or business, or a The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo non-customer who has suffered loss as a result of the Swire): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and crisis, compensation in full must be paid in all those I have been in discussion with ministerial colleagues circumstances? I would welcome his support in lobbying about this matter. The action plan announced by my RBS on that point. right hon. Friend the Chancellor on Monday will drive up standards and bring much-needed and long overdue Mr Swire: The right hon. Gentleman will certainly regulation to the sector. have the support of the Secretary of State and myself in ensuring that no one loses out as a result of this IT Mark Durkan: The Minister will recognise that Ulster failure. I was specific on that point to Sir Philip Hampton bank customers are currently experiencing a third-class, and I cannot do more than repeat the words he said to poor standard of care.