Grace Bonney: 00:10 Hi, and welcome to Good Company, a podcast where we take an honest look at the world of creative business. I'm your host, Grace Bonney. On this week's show, I'm talking with one of my biggest heroes, singer, artist, and activist . Kathleen is the voice behind some of the most influential and inspiring bands, like , , and the . She's used her music, her art, and her voice to talk about politics, feminism, women's rights, domestic violence, and so many important issues. Her voice has inspired generations of women and all people, to speak up and speak out about the issues that mean the most to them.

I visited Kathleen in her home in California, where she had just celebrated the launch of her newest project, Tees 4 Togo, the new T-shirt collection where all proceeds go to the nonprofit organization Peace Sisters, which helps send young girls to school in the West African nation of Togo. Kathleen and I talked about her music career, life in the early days of a Riot Girl, and intersectional feminism. We also talked about the need for nuance, gray areas, and independent thought in both activism and art. And we talk about what and who is inspiring Kathleen to create today. So, let's start the show.

So, your musical career is legendary. And I try not to throw that word around. But one of the things I want to start with is, I don't think most people know that you have a history in design. And since that's our primary focus, I would love to hear more about that. What was it that drew you to design?

Kathleen Hanna: 01:50 Well, I actually took interior design classes at Parsons, when I was 38.

Grace Bonney: 01:55 And I read you're only What, one credit shy of a-

Kathleen Hanna: 01:58 I'm a little more than that, because I looked it up since then. And it's basically, construction documents. It's the worst. I mean-

Grace Bonney: 02:04 Which nobody enjoys.

Kathleen Hanna: 02:05 I just, echh. And I kind of realized, well, what drew me to design, your question was, what drew me, Kathy Hanna, to interior design. And the answer to that is, crappy bathrooms in clubs and crappy green rooms. I feel like there was a meter in my body that was like, "How much male urine can I smell? And how many ugly wallpaper borders can I see in crappy hotel rooms?" And just on tour, and kind of living out of a suitcase, in Bikini Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 1 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

Kill, way back when, I used to have old 50s and 60s suitcases with, I would tape pictures, photographs on the inside, so that when I opened it up, it was a portable home. I felt like it was something homey.

And then, it just sort of got to me, all the ugly design choices that people around the world make for green rooms. And you spent a lot of time if you're in a band, in the backstage greenroom. And a lot of really crappy leather couches, a lot of ugly leather couches. And I just sort of got my fill. And I was, when I got home after a particularly grueling tour, I just got really obsessed with my home space and with having it be really beautiful, have things smell nice.

And then I just started really wanting to help my friends have that, too, like my friends who were really busy and don't have time. They are writing books, they are doing performance art. They're not making a ton of money. They have kids. They live in a tiny rent-stabilized apartment. And I just, I mean, I didn't really have the time, but it was my hobby. It's what I love to do, is to go over and do a consultation, and then help my friend fix up her apartment.

So yeah, it just became this thing that I really enjoy. And I thought about doing it for real. But I don't really want to work with rich people with huge budgets. Much more where my passion is, is, I would really love to somehow do a project where I could redo places like check-cashing centers, you know what I mean? Or the DMV. Just places where you go and you're, "This is the worst. This makes me feel really bad." Our a plasma center. You know, when I was younger, I donated plasma to get money to be able to continue making my punk music. And I think people should have nice plasma centers. And just stuff like that, those are my fantasies.

And then I have this other sort of guerrilla project that is unrealized. So if anybody wants to steal this, it's up for grabs. You ever really go to a restaurant that you really love the food, but the restaurant itself is very not appetizing, so you're always getting to-go, or whatever? Or the bathroom is just so bad, you're, "I can't even"? There was this one particular place in Manhattan that was like that, and I was, "I'm gonna go in there and just paint a little square of the wall, and then I'm gonna put the trashcan over it. And then I'm gonna go in the next time and I'm gonna paint another little square and hide it underneath all the things that they have in there," because they have tons of stock and stuff. Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 2 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

And I was, "And then, I'm gonna sneak in shelving that I can erect. And I'm gonna put the stuff on shelves with a thing over it." And they're just gonna go in and be, "What?" Until finally, I've re-done the entire bathroom with that. I've replaced the sink. I somehow got the IKEA sink into the, and put it together.

Grace Bonney: 06:08 This is an HGTV show waiting to happen.

Kathleen Hanna: 06:10 I know. I actually do want to do an HGTV show with my band mate Carmine Cabelli. We are gonna call it Backstage Pass, where we redo back stages.

Grace Bonney: 06:23 I love that. But, I like the idea, I mean, so much design programming is about wealthy people flipping houses that most people couldn't afford anyway. And there used to be this really great show that Niecy Nash had, that was called Clean House. Did you ever watch that?

Kathleen Hanna: 06:35 Absolutely.

Grace Bonney: 06:36 It's the only one I ever liked, because that whole concept of, if you haven't seen it, it was a show where you would go in, people would sell things at sort of a front yard yard sale. And you would use that money to make it over, which is a practical way to approach design.

Kathleen Hanna: 06:50 Yeah, I love that show.

Grace Bonney: 06:52 Is there anything that you get out of interior design that's different or fulfilling in a different way than music and performing?

Kathleen Hanna: 07:01 You know, actually, there's a real similarity. Because part of my thing as a feminist musician is trying to change a room that I'm in. When I'm performing, I'm often performing in straight, male- dominated, white spaces. And to try to make this a welcoming environment for everyone, and for people who are typically left out, I used to say, "Girls to the front," and try to get girls to the front. And that was one way to kind of reorganize the room. And also, to be, "Look, every space can be turned from a nightmare to a fantasy as quickly as it," as quickly as it can go bad, it can go good.

And so, I feel like interior design is really similar, just also in terms of music that it surrounds you. The thing about music is that it hits you on a really visceral level, and it comes in through a lot of different senses, as a live performance. And I feel the Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 3 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

same way about interior design, where it's almost like installation art, to me. And I mean, I don't want to live in a space that's like an installation. My friend was, "Let's build a fake Yayoi Kasama Infinity room for the guestroom. And I'm, "Yeah, everyone's gonna want to sleep on mirrors."

But I do like the way that music surrounds you, and that your environment surrounds you. And I think that with all the talk of self-care lately, to take that time to make your space be somewhere that suits you, that maybe is a space that's full of energy, and life, and more, and more, and more. Or maybe you need a space that's very calm. And to even think, "What would be good for me right now?" To even have that question, even if you don't do anything about it, I feel that that's a part of design, you know?

Grace Bonney: 09:16 I want you to have a show now, because I feel like most people on air don't even ask those questions. You get a cookie-cutter version of the same style, kind of over, and over, and over again. And I feel like you see a designer more than you see the people who live in the house, sometimes. And I think about how, just the word safe, or the word inspiring, or welcoming feels completely different to every person in every person's home. And we need more people in the design program asking questions, rather than just projecting style.

Kathleen Hanna: 09:47 Well, it's not about you. When you're working with someone to help create their space, or I've done set design. It's not about me. It's not about what I want. It's about bringing out that person's wants, desires, hopes, fantasies. And also, the process of working with someone and having them say, being, "What's your favorite thing?" And my friend brought me this really beautiful piece of fabric. And I was, "Okay, these are the colors. What if we pulled from these colors?" And I'm kind of addicted to Photoshop, so I do mock-ups of everything. And that's my big thing that I've used my design theme for, is doing mock-ups for people, so that they don't purchase things that end up going into a landfill. Because that's also really important to me. And helping people figure out size issues, so they don't end up with a huge table and tiny chairs.

Grace Bonney: 10:49 Classic problem.

Kathleen Hanna: 10:51 Which drives me totally, drives me bananas.

Grace Bonney: 10:51 Won't even fit in your door.

Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 4 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

Kathleen Hanna: 10:53 Yeah.

Grace Bonney: 10:54 Which is why New York City has couch-breaking services. Have you ever used one of those?

Kathleen Hanna: 10:57 No.

Grace Bonney: 10:58 I've used them twice. It is a phenomenally New York City thing, of people who come, saw your sofa in half, carry it mangled up the stairs, and then reconstruct it and reupholster it inside because people's rooms can't handle modern sofas. Not a problem you have in California.

Kathleen Hanna: 11:17 Wow, my mind is sufficiently blown on that.

Grace Bonney: 11:20 It's a little violent to watch. I videotaped mine being ripped apart one time. But then you'd have no idea that it ever happened. They are so good at it.

Kathleen Hanna: 11:29 It's kind of crime sceney, you know what I mean?

Grace Bonney: 11:29 It is.

Kathleen Hanna: 11:32 In this weird way. I guess if you think of furniture as, I kind of sometimes, will talk to furniture the way I talk to plants, where I'm, "Hey, lamp."

Grace Bonney: 11:44 And we gender furniture. It's true. And we gender furniture. And I think that's one of those things where I've heard interior designers everywhere on the spectrum refer to furniture as he or she, and things like that. And when you add that layer of gendering it, and then watching something be ripped apart, it's a very interesting experience. I'm glad I don't have to rip sofas apart anymore to fit them in rooms.

Kathleen Hanna: 12:03 Poor Couchy.

Grace Bonney: 12:05 I thought it was interesting that you were saying that design isn't about you, it's about the person you're working with. And it makes me think about your music. And this may have changed over time, but what percentage of, when you were on a stage performing, what percentage of that is about you, and what percentage of that is about the people that you're essentially, serving?

Kathleen Hanna: 12:24 Well, when I'm actually up there making music, it's all about me. Because I have to be enjoying myself in order to be doing a Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 5 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

good job. And I have to be in the moment as much as possible and present. So, I mean, I want everyone to have a good time. I can't really give a percentage to it, but it's definitely the show, is about everybody. Because what happens on the floor is just as important as what happens on the stage. And the audience has such a huge impact on how well things go. And there've been times where it ends up, you're working against an audience. One time in Munich, where it was just, I felt like I was doing handstands, anything to get people to clap, and they were just not into us.

And then afterwards, were mad we didn't play an encore. And I was trying so hard. I love the challenge. I love the challenge of taking a weird, bad situation and then, it's like the makeover thing. I mean, everyone loves a makeover. But I feel like there's different ways to do a makeover, and ways where a makeover is actually a politically conscious makeover. I was thinking when we were talking before about design. This thing happened to me and I was 19, and I was running this teenage sexual assault support group.

And it was in this community center, we got this community center room. And it was me and another counselor from Safe Place, the relief from domestic violence shelter that we worked at. And we wanted to, and this is part of the reason of how I started in music, was that I was doing outreach trying to get girls who had experienced sexual abuse and sexual assault to come and support each other in these meetings. And again, it wasn't about me, it was really about us giving them the information as the grown-ups, which, I was 19 and I was the grown-up, which is kind of funny now to think of. But I thought of myself very much as grown-up.

But we were just giving them permission to help each other. And it was in this fluorescently lit room with fold-out chairs. It was beige, on beige, on beige, on beige, on oatmeal. And these young women, a couple of them figured out that that they had been assaulted by the same football player at their school. And they all, they didn't know each other. They weren't in the same social group. So, they met through this meeting. And they were talking to each other, and they were, I've told the story a million times, and I still cry every single time.

A couple of the girls were, "Hey, why don't we meet outside before school?" And when we walk through this one hallway where all the football players hang out, and they'd each been being harassed, in addition to being raped, were being harassed Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 6 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

by the football players, saying, "Oh, you've got a piece of Shawn in you." Creepy stuff like that, while these survivors that were by themselves, and they didn't know they weren't the only ones. So, they would meet outside of school and link arms and walk through that hallway together. They came up with that. It had nothing to do with me. I just facilitated the space for it to happen.

And in that moment, the fluorescently lit oatmeal, on oatmeal, on beige, on white, on whatever, it just turned into a beautiful room because of what was happening inside of it. And I think that was a real turning point. I know it sounds like it has nothing to do with design, but to me, it does. I wish that room would've happened, in I mean, I wish that situation would have happened in this amazing beautiful space. But it also taught me that what goes on in a space is really the center of everything, and that the design is there to support that.

And I feel similar with music, is that a lot of things that I've written, not all, has been meant to be sort of a bridge back to yourself. It's meant to be something that you can use, and you can use maybe a line from a song to remind yourself that you're not alone in this world. But it's still about me, in that I get enjoyment out of it, you know what I mean? I would be lying if I said ... Everything I do, I do it because I really love it. And even though it sounds kind of like I'm all altruistic and whatnot, I'm not. I mean, I love it. I love doing that. And the thrill of seeing someone taking something you made and making it their own, or living inside of it, is the best payment I could ever receive.

Grace Bonney: 17:41 I think so much of the best art of any type facilitates some sort of emotion that is important, whether it's empowerment, or love, or safety, or peace. It is a conduit for something bigger than itself. And all of the work that you do facilitates that. And it's emotional work, and it's draining work. How do you create boundaries and take care of yourself when so much of what you do, and even just what you represent to a whole generation of people, really is an emotional burden as much as it is a joy and a gift?

Kathleen Hanna: 18:19 Egads. This is kind of the icon question. I mean, I had to set boundaries, because I used to do a lot of counseling for people. People would have overwhelming responses to the music, like in Bikini Kill, especially. And so, a lot of young women, and boys, would come up and share their experiences with me and feel safe sharing their experiences with me. I mean, I got a lot of, "I've never told anybody this." And when I first started in my Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 7 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

band Viva Knievel, which was before Bikini Kill, I was actively working at a shelter.

And so, I had gotten really, very burnt out doing drug service work, as many people do. And for those of you who are still doing it, more power to you. And I started doing public speaking at high schools instead of direct service work. And just trying every different thing. And then I found, "Oh, wow, doing music," it was a way that I could still be doing work that was so important to me and so impactful, but I could be having fun while I was doing it. And then I was, "Oh, I'm taking my show on the road. I'm able to do counseling after shows."

But yeah, it's got a little annoying. It's like, my band is drinking beer and having fun, like how people think people do on tour. And I'm in the corner trying to convince a rape survivor that her rape actually was bad enough that she can call a rape crisis line and get some help. Always trying to lead people to a better resource than me. But it's amazing, I cannot tell you how many women I have met in my 30+ years of doing music, who tell me horrific stories of assault, and say, "But I don't really want to tie up the phone lines because it's not that bad." And I'm just, "If what happened to you is not that bad, I don't know what they think is worse." Just the minimization that people do of the violence against them. And I know it's a protective mechanism, and it makes sense.

But I mean, I started taking care of myself in Le Tigre by making myself less available to fans, posting resources on the web. Because websites became a thing then. And really, just started to think of myself as an artist and say, "Hey, I deserve to have the tools of my trade. I need monitors when I sing. I want to work with a sound woman who can get the best out of me every night. I want to," it's like you can't be a writer without a typewriter, or a computer, or a pen, and a piece of paper. And I was doing work in Bikini Kill where it was just a lot of times, I'm singing through someone's home stereo system in their basement, and I can't hear anything. And I'm throwing my voice out for the next show.

And so, there is a lot of self-care stuff that started happening in Le Tigre, and also just sort of giving myself a buffer so that when I'm feeling like I have the strength for those exchanges, I can have them. And when I'm not, it's okay. And it took a lot of work, a lot of journaling. I know, so nerdy. A lot of journaling, to kind of be like, "Hey, just making this work is enough. I don't need to answer every single letter," which I did, all through the Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 8 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

90s, every single letter. And I became friends with some of the pen pals, and now they are some of my favorite artists.

Like my friend, Brontez Purnell, who was just over to my house the other night. And he's very prolific writer, choreographer, musician. He wrote me a fan letter when he was 14. And I'm very lucky that a lot of people who have been in audiences and shows I've played in are actually totally, more amazing than I am, and I've gotten to be their friends. But I just don't think about that stuff of people counting on me, are, I don't know, legendary, iconic, all that stuff. I just don't think about it because it seems ridiculous. And I feel really lucky to get to do what I do, and I just don't carry that burden.

Grace Bonney: 22:57 I think you've always put that energy out there, too. I think for people who use the label icon, or legend, or whatever, I think that you are a very human version of whatever that is, in the best way possible. And I've always thought from the outside, that that might have to do with just, so much of your career happening pre-social media, and the way that that kind of shrinks people down to one dimension of either, you're all good or you're all bad, or you're all this, or you're all that. And you've always been so transparent about things that you were learning, or evolving. And especially, when it comes to Riot Girl and feminism.

And I love so much how you've spoken about sort of problematic white feminism within Riot Girl. And when I mentioned that I was going to be speaking with you today, so many people reached out to ask me what you thought of feminism, which I understand. But I think you've spoken about it a lot. But how do you see that community of people who rallied around Riot Girl, where do you see them today? Because I think that white feminism is still very much kind of informing a lot of people who are trying to combine activism and music that way?

Kathleen Hanna: 23:59 Your la croix is really loud. You should probably put it on the floor. It's going to be, "And, I have to guests today, Kathleen Hanna and [inaudible 00:24:09] la croix." You can edit that out.

Grace Bonney: 24:15 So how, I guess, where do you see Riot Girl today? I mean, it's obviously not with the same name, but how do you see that community expanding? Because I think you've been really vocal about how it needed to change to evolve.

Kathleen Hanna: 24:32 Well, I mean, I see all these amazing artists who have been influenced, women of color who are saying, "Women of color to Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 9 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

the front," at their shows. I see bands like Fuck U Pay Us, and I'm not saying that they're influenced that all by Riot Girl, but I'm saying in terms of mixing music with politics. And Big Joni, and The Tuts, and Pleasure Ven. I mean, I could go on and on with all these bands. Giant Kitty. And some of them are, "Yeah, I'm totally influenced by Riot Girl." So, I just see that there's more women of color who are making music, and who are not hiding their politics. I mean, everything we do is political, so whatevs.

But I still see the same strain of that white feminism. And one of the ways I see it, and this may seem kind of off target or whatever, but there was a sticker in Riot Girl that was going around. And it was a picture of Ramona Quimby, probably one of the most whitest, speaking of icons, little white icon that there could be. And it said, "All girls are Riot Girls." And I hated that sticker, because I was, "No, they're not. And they don't have to be." Do you know what I mean? It's the same thing with feminism as a larger thing. I don't care what you call yourself. I'm not, "You have to call yourself a feminist."

And there's no judgment on it. There's so many reasons why women, especially women of color, lesbian women, might be, "I don't want to call myself that, because I associate it with white supremacy. I associate it with white women getting jobs, and then hiring me for half of what I'm worth." I get that. And I remember even back in the 90s being, "No, no, no," seeing that start to happen, and being, "No, no, no. We can't universalize this." Even when I would write a manifesto, I would try my best to be on each woman's terms, on each girl's terms. This, write your own manifesto. This is mine, but this isn't the only one, you know what I mean? Let's all write manifestos.

And I see in the whole, "Believe all women," thing, I see it's different. But I really get that same feeling in my stomach, where I am, "Well, yeah, let's just forget about the history of Emmett Till. Let's just forget about the history of white women lying about men of color." And I'm the last person who's a fucking rape apologist, that's for damned sure. But I also don't believe all women. I'm sorry. If people hate me for that, go ahead. I believe you give women agency by asking questions, and by caring about stories enough to find out more. And unless we do that, it's just denying the legacy of racism in the United States to put out a slogan like that.

I think it's just very ill-conceived. And it's also, it's not only racist, it's not respectful of women in general, of all women. Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 10 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

Because I feel like the more respectful thing is to say, "No, listen to people's stories and make it your educated opinion." You know what I mean? That's what I want people to do with my business. I don't want people to just think I am 100% great just because of this, that, and the other. I want people to challenge me. I want people to question me. I want people to call me on my shit. Or I don't grow.

And because I'm in the position I'm in, I have seen the 1% of women who have used, who have misused, whether it's discussions about sexual violence, or whether it's political rhetoric, have this used tools that women have fought and died for to, as a crowbar in their own personal quest for fame or attention in that situation. And many of them are messed up by society, and depressed, and have real problems. But if we don't deal with our trauma, we end up putting it off on each other. And I've seen a lot of that. And so, I can't really get into the, "Believe all women," situation.

Grace Bonney: 29:47 We think you're talking about nuance, and gray area, and messiness, which is, I mean, I think I first discovered your music when I was maybe, 14. And I remember feeling like these girls are messy, in the best way possible. And as a young person growing up in the South, I was taught to be sweet, and clean, and put together at all times. And I remember getting that mixed tape of Kini Kill and L7, and feeling like, "These aren't people who are afraid to be messy, and complicated, and contradictory." And I think that's what's missing from a lot of the dialogue that existed in Riot Girl, and continues to exist right now. It's like the lack of nuance. I'm talking about how complicated so many of these heavy issues really are.

Kathleen Hanna: 30:32 Yeah. I'm like, "Yeah." That's my answer, "Yeah, I agree."

Grace Bonney: 30:39 I want to talk a little bit more about boundaries, because I think for anyone who didn't see the documentary about you called , side bar, go see it. It's amazing. But you were so open and so vulnerable in this documentary, because you were speaking about your diagnosis of late stage Lyme, and how life-changing that is. And I imagine that that really kind of changed the way you protected yourself and your body. How does that continue to, now that you're kind of on the other side of the worst part of that, how does that continue to inform the work you do now and how you take care of yourself?

Kathleen Hanna: 31:16 Well, I wish I could say I didn't eat fast food yesterday, but I did. And I did work out today, to balance that out. But I'm still one of Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 11 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

those people who's, "Oh, well, I'll eat bean with bacon soup, but I'll have a kale juice with it," to even out the scales of nutritional justice. But I'm not that good at it. I have to be honest, I'm just not that good at it. And I was on all of these restrictive diets when I was very ill, and so it's kind of when I'm on the other side of it, I was just, "I'm just gonna eat whatever I want and not be a weirdo about it." It's just a work in progress. I'm still really working on getting to the core of, why do I make bad decisions about what I eat, or how I take care of myself, or don't take care of myself.

But I'm also, I'm enjoying my work. I'm enjoying, I'm working on the Tees 4 Togo project, and it's like a T-shirt business but I started that benefits a group called Peace Sisters. And basically, they pay girls' tuitions in West Africa, so that they can attend school. And I just think in the Me Too era, where we're hearing more women's voices, if we don't hear African women's voices, we are not having a real fucking conversation. And I've been enjoying the creativity in the work. I've been enjoying working with Tina, who is from West Togo. And she's the president, and getting to know her and her sense of humor, and doing a lot of actual design stuff around that. Designing the website, designing the T-shirts, in terms of the colors of the shirts, and pairing the artist with the musician or the comedian who's on the shirt, and all that kind of stuff.

And while I've been doing it, whenever I get stressed out, I've been just stopping and taking a moment to look at the W. Kamau Bell shirt that I'm obsessed with right now, and that I wear almost every day. Right now, I'm wearing my Chuck D one. And I got some coffee or something, on Chuck D. I don't know why. I don't know how I did that. But I've been enjoying it. And I think for me, that's a really big piece of boundaries. And when I say boundaries, I mean being a workaholic. Being a workaholic in a way where you don't enjoy it, where it's like, you're just doing it compulsively to avoid other things, as opposed to enjoying it at the time and pacing myself.

And like I said, when I start feeling like, "Oh, I have to do the business part of it," which sucks, I go in and I look at my W. Kamau Bell shirt, or I put it on. And I try it on with a couple different pairs of pants. And I'm, "This looks good. I'm psyched." And then I start being, "Wow, do I really care about girls getting educations, or do I just want these awesome shirts?" Because I've been wearing them all the time. I couldn't wear them before I had the launch, because I only had the samples. And if I got them dirty before a photo shoot ... So, as soon as my launch Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 12 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

happen, I just was living in them. And I am, "Seriously, did I just do this to improve my wardrobe?" Not to toot my own horn, but it's more tooting the artist's horn, that I'm really liking the shirt.

So, I guess I'm just having boundaries in my life by trying to make sure that I enjoy what I'm doing, and I'm not just doing it shut off. Does that make sense? And with Lyme disease and stuff, the huge education I got was, I'm not afraid to fly anymore, because I just don't care. Because when you're staring death in the face all the time, and you're, "Please, God, take me. I can't take it anymore," it's like, getting on a plane is no big deal for me. Petty things are not big deals. Assuming the best of people is second nature now, because that's something that I needed.

People would see me, and I would seem fine. And then I would be crashed. I would go to one event, and I would have to sleep for two days, three days. And then, so I wouldn't make it to someone else's important event. And most people were supercool, but some people were, "I don't know. I mean, I saw her at this, so she must be totally fine." And the nature of autoimmune illnesses is that they kind of flare and wane. So, if someone doesn't remember my name or meeting me, I don't care. If somebody doesn't, I mean, I never really did, but if someone's super late or whatever, I'm just like, "Maybe they have an illness in their family. Maybe that person in the car who's honking at me just got some horrible diagnosis, or is in the shape I was in a couple years ago," you know what I mean?

I guess it just sort of made me more empathetic. And I'm pretty embarrassed that I didn't know jack about disability until I, myself, had an invisible disability. So, it's been a real education. The bad part is having to, this weird thing that happens. I don't know how many people listening have made it through an illness, or are in remission currently, or whatever, and would relate to this. But, there's this weird thing that happened where I felt this big pressure to enjoy every moment.

It's almost the opposite of what we were talking about. It's, I want to be present. I want to feel things. It gives me so much information, too. When you actually feel things, you're, "No, I'm not going down the right path, because this just doesn't feel good. This isn't where I should take my work. My work should be going in this place, because that's actually where I really want to go."

Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 13 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

And I really struggled with just being able to walk up the subway stairs. I would cry, because I couldn't do that for years. And I remember just looking at the stairs, and when the elevator was broken, just standing there for a really long time trying to figure out how I was gonna do it. And just a lot of different things that I couldn't do, that when I do them now, I'll have sort of the overlay of me being in bed. And launching my new business was, that was a dream I had when I was in bed, was, "If I get better, I really, I would love to find a woman who already has a project going that's really awesome, that I can be a support to, that I can lend my creativity and my limited amount of notoriety to."

And I had met that person, and I had found that organization, and I'm doing it. And I'm thinking, "Wow, that was something I thought of when I was in bed." And it's hard not to feel this kind of pressure to be so grateful. And sometimes I just want to take shit for granted.

Grace Bonney: 39:07 You can be a human. That's allowed.

Kathleen Hanna: 39:09 I don't want to be, all of a sudden colors are brighter. And, they are. And food taste better, and I am more thankful. But then some days, I just am depressed, and feel like crap, and I don't want to deal with anything. And I have to be okay with that, too. Because I would just get really down on myself with, "You've been given this second chance. You've been given a second chance. You need to not eat that crappy food or smoke at joint because of that." And I allowed to say that on-

Grace Bonney: 39:45 Yeah. It's the Internet.

Kathleen Hanna: 39:47 Okay, when I did, I smoked a joint, and I inhaled. I inhaled the whole thing.

Grace Bonney: 39:53 It's the Internet. You can say anything. [crosstalk 00:39:56] I'm so glad you mentioned that. So many of the people that we work with at Good Company on the radio and in the magazine, so much of it is about giving voices and space, and shining a light on people to tell their own stories who are living with disabilities, or chronic illness. And especially when those things are invisible, I think it's incredibly complicated to try to explain how difficult that can be and not fall into that. But you should be so happy that at least it's not this, or you can do this. And it becomes so complicated. But I think it's important to hear people living with these, whether it's an illness or a disability, talking about the fact that these bad days or difficult days, or Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 14 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

however you want to phrase them, that they happen, and that it's okay to give in to them sometimes. You're human.

Kathleen Hanna: 40:41 Yeah.

Grace Bonney: 40:42 I think we expect people to be superhuman, especially someone in your position, who is seen so admirably by so many people. I think people would assume you're superhuman, but that's what I loved about the documentary, was it was, "Here's a human being who is struggling with a very real thing." And it doesn't matter how many people go to your shows or buy your albums, you're still going through this very difficult time.

Kathleen Hanna: 41:05 Yeah. All that stuff that people said to me about, older people would say to me, "Oh, if you don't have your health, you don't have anything. At least you have your health." And I would just kind of roll my eyes and be, "Oh, whatever." And then I was, "Yeah, actually, if you are just so exhausted you can't even make it to the bathroom," you know.

Grace Bonney: 41:35 That phrase is lost on most people until you get in that position, and then you realize how, when you start ticking off boxes of things that aren't working the way that you would hope that they would work, how different that makes everything. And then how much pressure there is to just find the bright side.

Kathleen Hanna: 41:50 Oh, God-

Grace Bonney: 41:50 ... not the bright side. There isn't always one.

Kathleen Hanna: 41:52 Yeah. I actually wrote a song called The Bright Side that was based on that book. I think it's Barbara Ehrenreich, and it's all about American optimism. And, "Oh, just right around the corner things will be better." And kind of how that feeds into taking over the West, and colonizing the West, and being, "Because right around the corner is the new great thing. And it belongs to someone else, but we can take it." But kind of where a lot of that stuff is rooted, of people telling people with cancer that they should fucking meditate and have a positive attitude. And it was really great for me to read actual studies that were, "We did a study, and we found out that people who had a positive attitude had no more greater success with their treatments than people who had terrible attitudes."

And having a terrible attitude is really important sometimes, to look at your situation, and be, "This sucks," and just saying it. And have your friends be, "You're right. This sucks." Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 15 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

Grace Bonney: 43:00 Having someone who can sit with you and say that, and not try to do the, "But," or, "At least," or, "But look at this bright side."

Kathleen Hanna: 43:07 "That's the best kind of cancer."

Grace Bonney: 43:09 Yeah.

Kathleen Hanna: 43:11 Every time someone tells me about a cancer diagnosis or a former cancer diagnosis, I always think of how many times I've heard people say that phrase, "Oh, but I've heard that that's the best kind of cancer to get." And it's, when you get a cancer diagnosis, you don't want your friend to say, "But that's a good kind of cancer." There's no good kind of cancer.

Grace Bonney: 43:29 No, and that comment's not helping anybody. It's really not.

Kathleen Hanna: 43:33 It's kind of like the extreme, on steroids version of, "You look tired."

Grace Bonney: 43:39 Everybody hates that comment.

Kathleen Hanna: 43:41 There's just no reason to ever say that to anybody.

Grace Bonney: 43:46 No one's gonna say, "Thank you. I was wondering that. That's a good point."

Kathleen Hanna: 43:50 Yeah, thanks for bringing it up to me that I'm exhausted, or that I look like crap. Thanks.

Grace Bonney: 43:55 Yeah, that doesn't feel good.

Kathleen Hanna: 43:56 Whatever.

Grace Bonney: 43:57 You said in interview one time that you don't get paid enough for anyone to tell you what to fucking do, which is one of my favorite things I've ever read. And our next issue is all about money, and finances, and difficult things like that. And it makes me wonder, what does being a working, living musician look like for you in 2018? Do you have to diversify income streams? How does that work for you?

Kathleen Hanna: 44:21 Whoa, what does diversify income streams mean?

Grace Bonney: 44:23 Have multiple sources of income, like selling merch, doing tours, speaking. I think people assume if you're a musician, oh, you just sit back and live off of royalties forever. But I'm assuming that's not the case. Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 16 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

Kathleen Hanna: 44:34 No, not for me. For my husband, yes, that could be the case. But not for me. But I am lucky, because I'm just gonna say this, I married someone with a lot of money, Ad-Rock from the Beastie Boys. So hot. He's so hot, so cute, so funny. And so, I'm in a really lucky position where, I mean, I have my own money and we keep our stuff separate. So, I still do earn a living. I earn my own living, and I pay my own way. I don't want to be dependent on anyone.

But at the same time, I do know I have a huge safety net that most people don't. And so, that impacts what I'm able to do and not do. Having said that, I was able to quit working when I was 27 and do music full-time. And I was on my own. It was from multiple, whatever you said about that-

Grace Bonney: 45:34 Diverse income sources.

Kathleen Hanna: 45:34 ... stream, that river, the river of money that is always coming. I think one of the things that, I guess I'm just gonna say something totally random that has to do with money that interests me, is that I feel like people who have social justice built into their business, whether that business is their art or whether that business is part of their proceeds go to an organization that is doing progressive work, or what they put into the world is progressive, or the way that they do their business is progressive. A lot of times, their power gets inflated, especially women, in such a totally intense degree. And I've seen it time and time again.

And I just have to say, a working-class lesbian running a record label isn't Steve Jobs. And it's not fair to equate her with Steve Jobs, or with Mark Zuckerberg, or billionaires who have hundreds of thousands of employees. And yet, I see, in terms of community work, that so often it's, "Oh, that woman has a small business, and she must really be making it." And then when I see behind the scenes, it's, this person is spending all of their savings. They're skill sharing with lots of other people. They are spending a lot of time doing work for free. And part of that can be built in to our identities, in that female volunteerism.

I saw it in the 90s, where DIY, do-it-yourself, became the DIFE, do-it-for-everyone-else, you know? And I think it can sometimes be hard to say, "I'm worth this, and this is what I need to be making." And to say, "Hey, I'm going to charge more because my products are sweatshop-free, I'm doing an ethical business." It costs more to run an ethical business, everybody. I know you all know that. It costs more. It costs more to make sure that Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 17 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

your employees, if you have, I'm an employee of one. I'm an owner employee, single for my Tees 4 Togo business.

But I just see friends of mine who are running very ethical businesses, and they need to charge more for their products. And I think that's something that as consumers, people need to be aware that, and it's sad, because I hate capitalism, but the way people vote now is with dollars. Because that's the whole thing about our country is, it's all about money. And it's, so, if we refuse to shop at stores that are exploiting workers in Mexico, if we refuse, and I know people can't afford it. They can't afford to do that.

A lot of people can't afford to do that, so that's a really big thing for the future, is to try to figure out, "How can we run ethical businesses that can serve people of different income levels, and not just be exclusive to the [Goop 00:49:27] Contingent?" Because, you know what I'm saying.

Grace Bonney: 49:35 I do. My final question, actually comes from an online reader who goes by the name Expialidocious. I thought that was so great. She was saying for her and for so many people, your voice and your music is something that makes them feel like they are tapping into some sort of higher power, and finding energy, and strength, and courage they didn't know that they had. And she wanted to know who or what is that for you?

Kathleen Hanna: 50:02 Santigold.

Grace Bonney: 50:04 Tell us more.

Kathleen Hanna: 50:07 I love every single song that Santigold has ever written. Listen to her in the car all the time. I was just listening to my very favorite song, Creator. And it starts out, and she's, "Ah, ah, ah, ah," making these dolphin noises. And just that at the beginning, is so, it just touches a part of my brain that needs to be touched, where it's ... And she actually, there's a line in there that I think Taylor Swift stole. Because she talks about how she's, "I'll be in your bad dreams." And then I was, "Hmm, what?"

But yeah, the whole song is fairly amazing. And her whole repertoire catalog is amazing. And I guess she's just, she's one of those forces in my life who keeps me going when I am, "Oh, I can't." And then I am, "If I could just make a record as good as this. I want to make a record like this. I want to get back into the game. I gotta get back in the game." But even if I don't make

Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 18 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

another record ever, I want my T-shirt business to be beautiful, like a Santi song, you know?

Grace Bonney: 51:25 Yeah. So, what's coming next for you? What can we expect, or support?

Kathleen Hanna: 51:30 You can definitely support www.tees4togo. That's the website where you can buy the shirts. We have shirts of Hari Kondabolu, Kristen Schaal, , Chuck D, W. Kamau Bell. I'm literally, doing this off the top of my head, so it's-

Grace Bonney: 51:52 It's impressive.

Kathleen Hanna: 51:52 ... kind of hard, because I'm a little tired.

Grace Bonney: 51:53 This is how you know that you are the sole person doing this.

Kathleen Hanna: 51:57 I know. And I can tell you which artist, there's one of me that was drawn by fans. And that was kind of the start of the business, because I was, "Hey, all these people on Etsy are selling shirts with my face." And I was, "I would like to do a shirt where I could actually give the money to a nonprofit that needs it." And I don't mind that people bootleg me. You gotta do what you gotta do. I don't care. But it inspired me. "Hey, thanks, bootleggers. You inspired me to make my own shirt." And then it became a whole T-shirt line.

And I have an Ad-Rock one, by Seth Bogart, who is a great designer, who you should interview. I have a Brontez Purnell one, who is the fan I mentioned earlier, who now is hopefully, still a fan. But he's actually one my best friends. And I love his work. I'm trying to think of who all's, I'm like so spaced out. Yeah, if you go on www.tees4togo, or @tees4togo at Insta, or #tees4togo, all that stuff, or my Twitter will have info about it and stuff. So yeah, that's pretty much what I'm doing right now.

I have a couple of other projects coming up, but I'm not telling anybody about them. Because kind of like the T-shirt business, I like to just show up and people are, "Wait, what?" I like surprises.

Grace Bonney: 53:25 Keep them surprised.

Kathleen Hanna: 53:26 It's exciting.

Grace Bonney: 53:28 It feels very punk to do that.

Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 19 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

Kathleen Hanna: 53:29 Doesn't it? I just feel like-

Grace Bonney: 53:29 Yes.

Kathleen Hanna: 53:31 I always work on three projects at once, because then when I get bored with one I can work on, so there are two other projects I'm working on, is basically what I'm telling you. So, while I've been working on Tees 4 Togo, I've had two other kind of big projects going. And when I get bored with one, I go to the other. And when I, it's a way that I keep engaged. And also, I think it's important, whatever you're working on, business, art, whatever, to have different components that you can move back and forth from. Because it also keeps you fresh.

And the most important thing we need when we're putting things in the world is time. And to have a week away from something is sometimes more important than waking up and working on it until you go to sleep. Just spending a week anyway is actually more productive than waking up and working on it. Because the information you get when you walk away and then come back is, you just look at it and you're, "Oh, this is what's wrong with that press release. This is what's wrong with that. This is what's wrong with it." It's great. I mean, I'm glad that I'm almost 50, and I finally figured that out.

Grace Bonney: 54:44 I think we're all still figuring that out. I think space, time, and distance. Kathleen, thanks so much for talking with us.

Kathleen Hanna: 54:59 Thank you so much, Grace. It was really fun. You asked really good questions. I appreciate not being asked what it's like to be a woman in rock. So, thank you for sparing both us and the listeners to have to even hear that question. Because I feel like it's burning everyone's ears constantly. Like seriously? That's your question? "What's it like to be a woman in rock?" "I don't know. What's it like to be a foot in a shoe? What's it like to be a hairstyle?"

Grace Bonney: 55:27 I can't think of a better way to end. Thanks so much for listening to today's show. You can listen and download Good Company anywhere podcasts are available. And issue number two of Good Company Magazine is out and on stands now. Visit us at welcometogoodcompany.com, or goodcompanyzine, that's Good Company Z-I-N-E @ Instagram, to pick up an issue or learn more about Good Company.

If you have time and enjoyed today's podcast, please rate us and leave a review on your podcast platform. It helps new Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 20 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com

listeners find the show, and helps us bring more voices and points of view to the conversation. Until next week, thanks for listening. And thanks to the Lame Drivers for our theme song. Check them out online at lamedrivers.com.

Good Company - Kathleen Hanna MIX (Completed 11/19/18) Page 21 of 21 Transcript by Rev.com