Meeting of the Parliament

MEETING OF THE PARLIAMENT

Wednesday 26 June 2013

Session 4

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Wednesday 26 June 2013

CONTENTS Col. BUSINESS MOTION ...... 21543 Motion moved—[Joe FitzPatrick]—and agreed to. PORTFOLIO QUESTION TIME ...... 21544 EDUCATION AND LIFELONG LEARNING ...... 21544 School Closures (Consultation of Children and Young People) ...... 21544 Travel-to-school Times ...... 21545 Educational Psychology Services...... 21546 College Mergers (Glasgow) ...... 21547 Colleges (Reclassification as Public Bodies) ...... 21548 Universities (Senior Appointments) ...... 21549 Education (Diversity) ...... 21550 Employability Fund (Promotion) ...... 21551 College Mergers (Glasgow) ...... 21552 Probationary Teachers (Employment Figures) ...... 21553 Childcare and Early Years Education ...... 21554 Draft Scottish Code of Good Higher Education Governance ...... 21555 Langside, Anniesland and Cardonald Colleges Merger ...... 21556 Adam Smith College and Carnegie College (Regionalisation) ...... 21557 Sustainable Economic Development (Further and Higher Education Support) ...... 21558 Curriculum for Excellence (Renewables Industry) ...... 21559 Classroom Assistants ...... 21560 POST-16 EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL: STAGE 3 ...... 21561 POST-16 EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL ...... 21691 Motion moved—[Michael Russell]. The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell) ...... 21691 Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab) ...... 21694 Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) ...... 21697 Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) ...... 21699 Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab) ...... 21700 Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP) ...... 21702 Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD) ...... 21704 Liz Smith ...... 21706 Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) ...... 21708 Michael Russell...... 21709 BUSINESS MOTIONS ...... 21714 Motions moved—[Joe FitzPatrick]—and agreed to. PARLIAMENTARY BUREAU MOTIONS ...... 21716 Motions moved—[Joe FitzPatrick]. Paul Martin (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) ...... 21716 The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Joe FitzPatrick)...... 21718 DECISION TIME ...... 21720 ASH SCOTLAND’S 40TH ANNIVERSARY ...... 21725 Motion debated—[Duncan McNeil]. Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) ...... 21725 Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) ...... 21727 Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con) ...... 21729 Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab) ...... 21730 The Minister for Public Health (Michael Matheson) ...... 21731 CORRECTIONS ...... 21734

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Scottish Parliament Portfolio Question Time

Wednesday 26 June 2013 Education and Lifelong Learning [The Deputy Presiding Officer opened the meeting at 14:00] 14:00 The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott): Business Motion We move to portfolio questions. In order to get in as many members as possible, I would prefer The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott): short and succinct questions and answers, please. Good afternoon, everyone. The first item of business this afternoon is consideration of School Closures (Consultation of Children and business motion S4M-07154, in the name of Joe Young People) FitzPatrick, on behalf the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a timetable for stage 3 of the Post-16 1. Fiona McLeod (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) Education (Scotland) Bill. (SNP): To ask the Scottish Government whether there is a mechanism for insisting that local Motion moved, authorities follow Scotland’s Commissioner for That the Parliament agrees that, during stage 3 of the Children and Young People’s guidance on Post-16 Education (Scotland) Bill, debate on groups of consulting children and young people on school amendments shall, subject to Rule 9.8.4A, be brought to a closures and other significant changes. (S4O- conclusion by the time limit indicated, that time limit being 02292) calculated from when the stage begins and excluding any periods when other business is under consideration or The Minister for Learning, Science and when a meeting of the Parliament is suspended (other than Scotland’s Languages (Dr Alasdair Allan): It is a suspension following the first division in the stage being called) or otherwise not in progress: important that children and young people who will be affected by a school closure proposal, or other Groups 1 to 3: 45 minutes, significant change, understand what is being Groups 4 to 6: 1 hour 35 minutes, proposed and have the opportunity to express their views. That is why the legislation in this area Groups 7 to 9: 2 hours, already requires that children and young people Groups 10 to 12 2 hours 20 minutes.—[Joe FitzPatrick.] be consulted. The statutory guidance for those Motion agreed to. consultations explains how local authorities should go about consulting children and young people. It also makes reference to best practice, as set out by Scotland’s Commissioner for Children and Young People. Local authorities are not compelled to follow the commissioner’s best-practice guidance, but I certainly encourage them to do so. Fiona McLeod: I thank the minister for that answer. Can I draw his attention to an aspect of yet another saga of East Dunbartonshire Council’s informal consultation on school closures? The council is sending local authority officers into classes of children as young as primary 1, which directly contradicts the advice on page 18 of the commissioner’s guidance, which states that “a genuinely independent person is essential for the process to be respected by participants, parents/carers and other relevant adults.” I add that I have recently found out that officers are handing out forms to pupils with a pre-ticked box against the statement, “I agree with this”. Dr Allan: I am certainly aware that East Dunbartonshire Council has been looking at options for making changes to the school estate, and how it does that is a matter for the council. Obviously, I expect it to do so sensitively.

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Fiona McLeod will appreciate that I cannot recommendations except recommendation 20, comment on the specific concerns to which she which deals with this subject. The reason why we referred or on specific schools, because ministers did not accept recommendation 20 was that we might be involved at a later stage in the statutory want to ensure that a local authority that proposes process. For that reason, it is not appropriate for closure of a rural school can show that the closure me to comment on individual schools. would be of educational benefit to the children concerned. Travel-to-school Times The Deputy Presiding Officer: Question 3 has 2. Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD): To not been lodged by Alex Johnstone. This is the ask the Scottish Government whether it has third time that he has not provided an explanation. considered issuing maximum travel times for We would be grateful if one could be provided. journeys to school in rural and island areas. (S4O- 02293) Educational Psychology Services The Minister for Learning, Science and 4. Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con): Scotland’s Languages (Dr Alasdair Allan): The To ask the Scottish Government what provision is Scottish Government has not considered issuing made in local authority schools for access to maximum travel times for journeys to school in educational psychology services. (S4O-02295) rural and island areas, because that is a matter for The Minister for Learning, Science and local authorities. Scotland’s Languages (Dr Alasdair Allan): Tavish Scott: I am grateful to the minister for Education authorities have a statutory duty to that reply. Does he accept—I am sure that he provide a psychology service, as specified in does, as he too is a rural member—that section 4 of the Education (Scotland Act) 1980. circumstances in which a pupil walks half a mile Provision beyond the statutory requirement is a on unlit roads with no pavements, to a bus stop, matter for local authorities and will be determined followed by an hour and a half on a bus on single- by local and national priorities. track roads, leading to an overall commute of Margaret Mitchell: I thank the minister for that three hours to school, could be considered to be response, notwithstanding some of its content. detrimental to the pupil’s education and wellbeing, which he will recognise as terms that are defined The minister will be aware of the concern that in the Schools (Consultation) (Scotland) Act 2010, has been raised by the Association of Scottish on rural school closures? Are such circumstances Principal Educational Psychologists regarding the a matter for his Government and his policy, or for shortfall in the number of educational local authorities? psychologists, following the Scottish Government’s withdrawal of funding for the educational Dr Allan: As I have said, that is a matter for psychology master of science course. Given that local authorities. As an island member—to which educational psychologists play a pivotal role in fact Mr Scott alluded—I can obviously understand identifying children and young people who have some of the issues that he wants to raise. dyslexia, how will the Scottish Government ensure However, at the risk of repeating myself, I reiterate that children and young people with dyslexia have that I do not want to put him or me in a position in timely access to the full team of experts that they which the process in respect of individual schools require, including educational psychologists? would be prejudiced by my commenting further. However, regarding correspondence from Tavish How will the Government ensure that there are Scott to me on some of the matters involved, I educational psychologists available to work with understand that the reply is in the post. speech and language therapists to help the 60 per cent of young offenders—and up to 80 per cent of Gordon MacDonald (Edinburgh Pentlands) children and young people who access mental (SNP): How will the recommendations of the health services—who have speech, language and commission on the delivery of rural education be communications needs? taken forward in order to ensure that educational benefit remains a key consideration of the school Dr Allan: Regarding the importance of closure decision-making process? identifying children with dyslexia, Margaret Mitchell will be aware that the Government has provided The Deputy Presiding Officer: I am not material in the form of the dyslexia toolkit. entirely sure that the question is relevant, but I dare say that the minister has been briefed on it. On dyslexia in prisons, the Government has certainly been paying close attention—indeed, I Dr Allan: Educational benefit was obviously a have visited Perth prison on that very issue. key issue in the rural education commission’s report. The Government accepted the On provision of educational psychologists, overwhelming majority of the commission’s notwithstanding what Margaret Mitchell has said, I recommendations—indeed, it accepted all the understand that the educational psychology

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courses at the University of Dundee and the The reality is that we need to have colleges of University of Strathclyde are near capacity. The scale that deliver for the people of Scotland. We Government is aware of the issue of supply and is have started off on that process of reform and we sensitive to it. have listened to the concerns of the sector and worked with it. I hope that, this afternoon, we will College Mergers (Glasgow) pass a bill that will put in place regionalisation, which is a significant change, and which will assist 5. Drew Smith (Glasgow) (Lab): To ask the the colleges in delivering what they are best at Scottish Government what progress has been delivering. That is a big step forward. made on college mergers in Glasgow. (S4O- 02296) Colleges (Reclassification as Public Bodies) The Cabinet Secretary for Education and 6. Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD): To Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): I have ask the Scottish Government what steps it is approved a proposal from Langside, Cardonald taking to avoid colleges being reclassified as and Anniesland colleges to merge. The colleges public bodies. (S4O-02297) aim for a vesting date of 1 November 2013. [Michael Russell has corrected this contribution. The Cabinet Secretary for Education and See end of report.] The necessary order has been Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): The laid before Parliament. reclassification of incorporated Scottish colleges as public bodies is a result of a decision by the I will also be considering the merger of John Office for National Statistics based on existing Wheatley, Stow and North Glasgow colleges, in levels of ministerial controls. due course. In Scotland, our relationship with colleges is Drew Smith: Can the cabinet secretary say how founded on strong partnerships, with associated many extra places will be available for prospective governance arrangements. Through the Post-16 college students in Glasgow as a result of the Education (Scotland) Bill, we are strengthening the mergers? existing arrangements to improve democratic Michael Russell: That will be a matter for accountability. discussion by the colleges with the regional board, Since the ONS’s decision in 2010, we have which is taking the regional overview. That is a negotiated with HM Treasury on the need to major innovation, because it will allow the colleges implement the decision in Scotland. It remains our to look at regional need and to operate as colleges belief that HM Treasury has the power to mitigate of scale. The matter will also be for discussion with the impact of the ONS’s decision on Scotland, and the Scottish Further and Higher Education yet it has refused to do so. Funding Council, which is, of course, sensitive to the issue of how places should be provided. Liam McArthur: I have listened closely to what the cabinet secretary had to say, but I am still The important thing is that we have met the unsure why, when he has known about the targets that we set ourselves for places, and that potential threat since 2010, he has not taken steps those places are high-quality places that ensure before now to address or at least mitigate the that young people—and older people—are well serious impact on our colleges. prepared for the world of work. That will be greatly welcomed by many people across the city of The cabinet secretary has insisted that his Glasgow. It is about time the Labour Party got in approach to college reform will not be “sacrificed step with that. to ONS classifications.” He blames the Treasury for not simply making an exception for him, and he Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP): I even blames Opposition members for not raising welcome the comments from Paul Little, the the issue with him before now. Is the truth not that principal of the City of Glasgow College, who said the potential threat to our colleges, their reserves that the college merger has created a “world-class and their ability to raise revenue has largely been institution”. Does the cabinet secretary believe that brought about by his own dither and delay and his the merger has created a college that is better unwillingness to engage properly with the issue in able to deliver courses in line with skills demand? the past three years? [Interruption.] Michael Russell: The education minister really Michael Russell: I believe that that is true, and cannot win: if I actually have a policy, I am it would perhaps be surprising if I did not. From his accused of being dictatorial; if I try to work with seat, Mr Findlay just shouted out, “Well read!” at a colleagues of Mr McArthur’s in the Westminster fellow member, which neither shows respect for Government, I am accused of dithering and that member, nor is it the type of debate that we dillying—I think that that was the word he used. need in the chamber. Why am I surprised that Mr Findlay did that?

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The reality is that the reclassification is it has with universities when they are replacing unwelcome and unnecessary. If Mr McArthur senior posts, such as principals. (S4O-02298) exerted himself to speak to his colleague the Chief The Cabinet Secretary for Education and Secretary to the Treasury, we would not have to Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): The deal with the issue. The blame lies entirely with recruitment of senior staff is entirely a matter for the coalition Government. Its action is anti-college individual universities as autonomous and and will not help colleges, but the good news is independent bodies, and not for the Scottish that we are working closely and positively with the ministers. colleges to put in place arrangements that will take them forward and work round the difficulties that John Finnie: In the foreword to the “Public are being placed in front of them. Sector Pay Policy for Staff Pay Remits 2011-12”, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable The difficulties are coming from the United Growth, John Swinney, stated: Kingdom coalition Government, the Treasury and the Liberal Democrats. We will make that clear “To help maintain staffing levels across the public sector, everywhere in Scotland. it is essential that we restrict pay growth and maintain pay at levels that are affordable and sustainable.” George Adam (Paisley) (SNP): Will the cabinet secretary outline the action that has been taken to He went on to say that a pay freeze for all staff introduce national pay bargaining in colleges? would apply in 2011-12. Michael Russell: Later this afternoon, we will The Scottish Parliament information centre have the opportunity to vote on the framework for produced a paper for me on the pay of principals. national pay bargaining, which is very welcome From 2010-11 to 2011-12, the salary of the indeed. Of course, comprehensive negotiations principal of the University of the Highlands and are taking place. We are delivering on our Islands increased by 31 per cent to £227,000: an commitment to ensure that we stop the obscene increase to an obscene sum. [John balkanisation of Scotland’s colleges and of terms Finnie has corrected this contribution. See end of and conditions in Scotland, which was introduced report.] by Michael Forsyth and continued under Labour Given that that particular post is due to be Administrations. We are the ones who are replaced, what steps will the cabinet secretary changing it. take to bring some restraint to senior academic Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab): Why was there salaries? If he does not have the powers to do so, no mention of national pay bargaining in the Post- what steps is he taking to acquire them? 16 Education (Scotland) Bill when it was first Michael Russell: As I am sure John Finnie is published? aware, I have made it clear whenever I have been Michael Russell: Ah, Mr Findlay thinks that he asked questions or spoken on that issue that right has me but, of course, we have been trying to across the public sector—and not just in listen to and work with the sector. universities—people need to lead by example. I made a commitment on national pay Indeed, I remember a question on the matter, to bargaining before Mr Findlay was even a member which I was pleased to respond, from George of the Parliament. I have gone on with that Foulkes when he was a member in this chamber. I commitment and I have gone through with agree with those who say that the example needs negotiation. We set up the framework but, to have to be clear and obvious and that it needs to belt and braces, I decided that we would also put a demonstrate restraint, particularly at this stage. commitment in the bill and honour that I encourage everybody in the public sector to commitment. [Interruption.] show restraint and to lead by example, as Mr Findlay finds that funny—astonishingly, he ministers and members in this chamber are doing finds the prospect of national pay and conditions in by not taking pay increases. It is essential that that the college sector to be entertaining and amusing. happens, and the members of the university sector That really tells us all that we need to know. Mr who ask me for advice on the matter—as some Findlay has no serious intent on further education. principals have—receive a very clear piece of His intent is only to laugh at it. My intent as the advice: “Do not accept any increase, and make minister is to deliver, which is precisely what we sure you lead by example.” will do this afternoon. Education (Diversity) Universities (Senior Appointments) 8. Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) 7. John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind): (Con): To ask the Scottish Government how it will To ask the Scottish Government what discussions promote a more diverse school education system. (S4O-02299)

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The Cabinet Secretary for Education and information session for training providers in Stirling Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): There are on 11 June. considerable freedoms already available to The Scottish Further and Higher Education schools in Scotland to govern in a way that best Funding Council has negotiated delivery of the suits local needs and parental wishes. Curriculum college element of the employability fund as part for excellence emphasises the autonomy of of college outcome agreements. The funding teachers and other education professionals in council will continue to support colleges through providing effective—and often innovative— regular engagement with outcome managers. learning and teaching, and Education Scotland encourages innovation through the new framework Margaret McCulloch: The feedback that I have for inspection. received from the sector suggests that there is some confusion about the role of the local Murdo Fraser: In the past few weeks, we have employability partnerships and the new co- had an expression of interest from a group of commissioning model. What is being done to parents in Edinburgh who wish to create a new satisfy the sector that colleges and training state school in the capital, and similar providers that are not members of the LEP are not contributions and ambitions from various church being placed at a disadvantage when bidding for groups. What encouragement will the cabinet employability fund contracts because of the LEP’s secretary give those groups? dual role? Specifically, can the Scottish Michael Russell: We have a clear structure that Government provide assurances that any labour exists in Scotland through local authority delivery, market intelligence that is gathered by the LEP, but it is not monolithic. There are opportunities for which should be subject to the Freedom of others to establish schools if they wish to do so. Information (Scotland) Act 2002, will be published openly? The important thing is that all schools in Scotland should meet a very clear standard of Angela Constance: This is the first year of the education, and we will insist on that national new employability fund, and I understand, from my standard when any new schools arise. I would engagement with organisations such as the encourage parents, if they wish to found or create Scottish Training Federation, colleges, local a school, to enter into creative dialogue with their authorities and other providers, that its creation is local authority, to ensure that they have the very welcome and that it is bringing together opportunity to deliver and to consider which part of organisations and funding pots. the sector their school would best fit into. Notwithstanding that, as it is the first year, there I do not believe that we should balkanise the will be some very important learning that we can education system. We should judge it in one very reflect on. That is important. We will have to reflect clear way: whatever structures exist must prove to on the experiences of all providers, particularly as be of benefit to the educational attainment of we strive to improve outcomes for young people. children. As long as that can be proved, I am very The member is correct that there is a co- relaxed about the innovation that takes place. commissioning panel, which is led by SDS, but the Indeed, I would encourage innovation, as long as decision on commissioning is made unilaterally by it is driven by that principle and is seen to be part SDS and decisions have to reflect local need. I of the national state system. assure the member that, through my on-going engagement with stakeholders, we will learn and Employability Fund (Promotion) enhance the decision-making processes. 9. Margaret McCulloch (Central Scotland) I will look at the issues that the member has (Lab): To ask the Scottish Government how it is raised about local labour market information and promoting the employability fund to colleges and why it is not subject to freedom of information training providers. (S4O-02300) legislation. I have to say that that is news to me, The Minister for Youth Employment (Angela but I will get back to the member on that. Constance): Skills Development Scotland employability fund contracts for 2013-14 were College Mergers (Glasgow) awarded to colleges and training providers in 10. Patricia Ferguson (Glasgow Maryhill and March 2013. In advance of that, SDS held a Springburn) (Lab): To ask the Scottish bidders’ conference in Perth on 11 January this Government what progress there has been in year and managed an online question-and-answer respect of further education college mergers in facility to support training providers as they Glasgow. (S4O-02301) prepared their employability fund bids. The Cabinet Secretary for Education and SDS provides on-going support to employability Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): As I stated fund training providers through a dedicated a few moments ago in my answer to Drew Smith, I contracts manager, and it held a further

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have approved a proposal from Langside, probationary teachers finding employment. (S4O- Cardonald and Anniesland colleges to merge. The 02302) colleges aim for a vesting date of 1 November The Cabinet Secretary for Education and 2013. [Michael Russell has corrected this Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): contribution. See end of report.] The necessary Employment prospects for teachers generally, order has been laid in Parliament. including probationer teachers, have been I will also consider the merger of Stow, John improving since autumn 2010. The latest Wheatley and North Glasgow colleges in due indication is that more than 90 per cent of 2011-12 course. probationers were in teaching posts in March 2013. Patricia Ferguson: I am grateful to the cabinet secretary for his response and for his forbearance Mike MacKenzie: What percentage of primary 1 in repeating it. What are the costs to date of to primary 3 pupils are in classes of 18 or fewer, or facilitating the merger of Stow, John Wheatley, are in two-teacher classes with a pupil to teacher and North Glasgow colleges, and what savings ratio of 18 or fewer, and does that represent an does the cabinet secretary expect will accrue from improvement in the percentage as it was in 2006, the merger when is complete? immediately before this Scottish National Party Government took office? Michael Russell: I will be very happy to provide those details in writing to the member. Obviously, Michael Russell: The percentage in classes of some of the figures still require to come out of the 18 or fewer is 18.8 per cent, which is up 6.1 development of the business case, but the percentage points since 2006. That is a growing member will be pleased to know that, overall, trend. More significantly, in primary 1, where college reform will deliver efficiencies of legislative sanctions now apply, the proportion of £50 million-plus per year from 2014-15. classes that are below the set class size is vast; a tiny number of pupils are in classes above that Of course, reform is not all about money; it is size, which is largely to do with special about providing a better service to students, more circumstances, such as allowing siblings to enter full-time courses, better opportunities for students, the same class. and colleges of scale. That is precisely what will happen with the mergers, and that is why they are Childcare and Early Years Education being so warmly welcomed. 12. Jayne Baxter (Mid Scotland and Fife) John Mason (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP): (Lab): To ask the Scottish Government how it is Does the cabinet secretary agree that the new responding to the conclusions on childcare and name for any college should be as inclusive as early years education in the Equal Opportunities possible and should not suggest that one college Committee’s report, “Women and Work”. (S4O- has taken over the other two? 02303) Michael Russell: That is an interesting point. The Minister for Children and Young People There have been no recent college mergers in (Aileen Campbell): We welcome the report of the which the name of one college has become the Equal Opportunities Committee. I am pleased to name of the whole. see that its recommendations are consistent with I encourage colleges to think creatively and those identified at the women’s employment constructively about their names. I would like to summit last year, which was held in partnership see the commemoration of significant educational with the Scottish Trades Union Congress. figures within college names. College names that Our long-term ambition is to improve and are purely utilitarian or functional are perhaps not increase early learning and childcare to match the as good as those that commemorate the great best in Europe, ensuring that it offers the greatest figures. For example, I know that, in Glasgow, a benefit to our most vulnerable children. As a first proposal has been made to consider the name of step, we will legislate, through the Children and Mary Barbour. That strikes me as a positive Young People (Scotland) Bill, to increase free and proposal. It has come from the trade unions and it more flexible early learning and childcare provision has been supported by some Labour MSPs. It is from 475 to 600 hours. That will remove some of not for me to say what the name should be, but the barriers that parents and carers can face in that proposal seems very positive and, were it to taking up education, training and employment, as come about, it would be warmly welcomed. well as save families the equivalent of around £700 per child per year. Probationary Teachers (Employment Figures) Jayne Baxter: I recently had the opportunity to 11. Mike MacKenzie (Highlands and Islands) meet parents and childcare workers in Methil as (SNP): To ask the Scottish Government whether it part of Save the Children’s childcare will provide an update on the number of conversations work. The message that I got from

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that discussion was clear—for too many women, that drew up the code, to listen to views for lack of flexible, affordable, out-of-school-hours improvement and to consult is welcome. childcare is a persistent major barrier to continuing However, it is obvious that a new code cannot learning and training. Will the minister outline what implement all of the review recommendations. the Scottish Government is doing to meet the That is why it has always been our intention to need for affordable or free out-of-school-hours and implement the recommendations in three distinct school holiday childcare as part of prioritising ways: by engaging key sector stakeholders as childcare as a key aspect of community implementation partners; by engaging the sector infrastructure in our most disadvantaged itself in implementing recommendations by communities? agreement; and by employing legislation where Aileen Campbell: I recently met Jayne Baxter necessary. at the Gingerbread celebrations in Fife, in the Sandra White: I thank the cabinet secretary for region that she represents. I appreciate the input that comprehensive reply. He will be aware that to the on-going debate on childcare from the NUS Scotland expressed a number of concerns parents that she has spoken to in Methil. about the code, in particular about the fact that We absolutely recognise that flexibility is a key staff and students will not be fully included in the thing that we need to get right, which is why decision-making process on the appointment and flexibility will be enshrined in the Children and remuneration of principals. What steps will the Young People (Scotland) Bill. We recognise that, Scottish Government take to address those to meet the needs of parents who want to access concerns? education and training, we need to provide the Michael Russell: From the very beginning, I hours flexibly. have been keen to see that the students, staff and The member raises the issue of out-of-school others are involved in the process. On a number of care and the childcare needs of parents of children occasions, I have drawn the need for that to the who are older than the early years sector. We are attention of the chairs of court. pleased that the Scottish Out of School Care I fully support the principle of having more Network is on the early years task force in a sub- transparency. I expect the recommendation on group that is looking at out-of-school care. We that to be further reflected in the final version of have just announced £1.7 million for our third the code. Last night I—and, I believe, the sector strategic partners, which include SOSCN, convener of the Education and Culture the Care and Learning Alliance, the National Day Committee—received a letter from Lord Smith that Nurseries Association and the Scottish indicates areas in which he is likely to make Childminding Association, in order to influence the progress. That will be positive. However, we need way in which we provide more opportunities for to see the final code before deciding what further families with children who are older but who action, if any, is required. nonetheless need childcare facilities to be available to them. The university sector advisory forum, which has a broad membership from across the sector, Draft Scottish Code of Good Higher Education including student, staff and trade union Governance representatives, will also have an important role to play. Indeed, that arises out of the von 13. Sandra White (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP): To Prondzynski review. On 12 June, I chaired the ask the Scottish Government what its position is advisory forum’s first meeting, at which it was on the reported comments of Professor Ferdinand agreed that the key part of its initial focus will be von Prondzynski and other panel members of the the implementation of the von Prondzynski review of higher education governance in Scotland recommendations and the new governance code. on the draft Scottish code of good higher We will also have an opportunity to consider education governance. (S4O-02304) whether further legislation is required, and I have The Cabinet Secretary for Education and committed to bringing a bill to the Parliament in Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): I was coming years. pleased to welcome the proposals in the von Prondzynski review and agree that it is important Langside, Anniesland and Cardonald Colleges that they are implemented appropriately. The work Merger to develop the draft code is important in taking the 14. James Kelly (Rutherglen) (Lab): To ask process forward and building on existing good the Scottish Government what savings will be practice. The provision in the Post-16 Education made as a result of the merger of Langside, (Scotland) Bill for the Scottish Further and Higher Anniesland and Cardonald colleges. (S4O-02305) Education Funding Council to determine the principles of good governance will also help. The The Cabinet Secretary for Education and willingness of Lord Smith, as chair of the group Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): As Mr

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Kelly knows, I wrote to him last week to confirm This has been an incredibly difficult time for that the colleges estimate that their merger will Adam Smith College. I am quite sure that the save some £21 million in the five years to 2016- college will come through it well and that the new 17. college will do well. Adam Smith College is in a strong position ahead of its merger with Carnegie James Kelly: I thank the cabinet secretary for College. There needs to be continued that response and for his response to the letter improvement, but nobody should forget that it is that I wrote almost two months ago. Will he the staff and students who have carried the commit to publishing a detailed breakdown of that college through. £21 million? Further, will he confirm whether it includes proceeds of the asset sale of Woodburn Sustainable Economic Development (Further house, which is a sub-campus of Langside and Higher Education Support) College in Rutherglen, which is in the process of being sold off? 16. Rob Gibson (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Government Michael Russell: All public finances are what further and higher education is doing to transparent and I am quite sure that, as the support sustainable economic development merger progresses, the college will publish its through engineering and other fields of study. accounts and they will be made fully available. Of (S4O-02307) course, the member will be able to identify from them what proceeds, if any, have come from asset The Cabinet Secretary for Education and sales. Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): The Government’s further and higher education sector Adam Smith College and Carnegie College funding and support for engineering and related (Regionalisation) areas includes: colleges continually reviewing their curriculum and provision to ensure that they meet 15. David Torrance (Kirkcaldy) (SNP): To ask local economic needs; the establishment of the the Scottish Government what progress has been energy skills partnership across Scotland’s made regarding the regionalisation of Adam Smith colleges to deliver energy and engineering-related College and Carnegie College. (S4O-02306) activity collaboratively across regional and sub- The Cabinet Secretary for Education and sectoral hubs; the Scottish Further and Higher Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): I have Education Funding Council’s allocation of an approved a proposal from Adam Smith College additional 1,200 undergraduate places from 2012- and Carnegie College to merge. The colleges aim 13 to 2014-15 and 850 postgraduate places over for a vesting date of 1 November 2013. [Michael the next five years in science, technology, Russell has corrected this contribution. See end of engineering and mathematics; the establishment report.] The necessary order has been laid in of innovation centres as sustainable communities Parliament. to support innovation for future growth and enhanced industry relevance; and the David Torrance: Does the cabinet secretary development of an engineering skills investment agree that, following an investigation into Adam plan, which Skills Development Scotland is due to Smith College, the recent report by Her Majesty’s complete during the summer. inspectors, which was produced on behalf of the Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Rob Gibson: Given the experience of North Council, was excellent, considering the amount of Highland College with the global energy training uncertainty that staff and students have been school and the similar experiences of other subjected to over the past 16 months? Does he bodies, could we codify or systematise the also agree that that is testament to the approach of creating partnerships between commitment and dedication of the college’s staff? colleges and sustainable economic developers as something that is a great success for Scotland’s Michael Russell: I am happy to put on record economic recovery? my admiration for the fortitude, perseverance and talent of the staff and the student body of Adam Michael Russell: The member is right to pay Smith College. I met them some weeks ago when tribute to North Highland College. I have visited it I visited the college and I know that they are keen and seen for myself the remarkable facilities that to ensure that, before it ceases to exist, the now exist and the work that is being done there. present board acknowledges clearly the mistakes Of course, regional outcome agreements that have been made; that the board members— provide the means to demonstrate the move many of whom were not responsible for the forward in better aligning college provision with the difficulties—recognise their corporate needs of learners and employers. We want responsibility to apologise to the staff; and that, learners to develop the skills and knowledge that whatever happens in the future, such difficulties they need to get a job or a better job or to develop never arise again. a career. Those arrangements also require

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colleges to be mindful of their regional and local On a broader theme, energy skills Scotland and labour markets and to prioritise provision to meet the commission for developing Scotland’s young those needs. workforce both have a positive contribution to make to facilitating partnerships that create better Curriculum for Excellence (Renewables connectivity between the worlds of education and Industry) work, so that our young people are better informed and have better pathways to the opportunities that 17. Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP): To exist now and those that will exist tomorrow. ask the Scottish Government how the curriculum for excellence will ultimately generate the skills Classroom Assistants necessary for the growing renewables industry. (S4O-02308) 18. Bruce Crawford (Stirling) (SNP): To ask the Scottish Government how important classroom The Minister for Youth Employment (Angela assistants are in enabling young people to achieve Constance): Learning and skills development their full educational potential. (S4O-02309) relating to energy, including renewables, are embedded in the curriculum for excellence and The Minister for Learning, Science and feature in a number of qualifications. Within the Scotland’s Languages (Dr Alasdair Allan): curricular areas of sciences, technologies and Support staff have a valuable contribution to make social studies, learners investigate the use and in supporting children and young people to development of renewable energy. Links can be achieve positive learning outcomes, and they have made to the cross-curricular theme of sustainable a key role in helping young people, especially development education. some of our most vulnerable children, to remain included, engaged and involved throughout their Education Scotland has developed a range of school careers. resources to support teaching on energy and build young people’s awareness of careers in the Bruce Crawford: Given the importance and sector, including learning journeys on renewables value of classroom assistants, which the minister within STEM central and a leaflet for schools outlined well, does he understand my called “Working in the energy sector: A guide for disappointment that the Tory-Labour Stirling teachers and those who provide careers advice”. Council is considering reducing the number of classroom assistants? Does he understand the Chic Brodie: Not including the supply chain, disappointment and dismay that pupils and Scotland’s renewable energy industries already parents in the Stirling area feel about that so- support about 12,000 jobs. The Economy, Energy called better together administration as a result of and Tourism Committee recently heard that a those planned reductions? further 60,000 engineers and project managers will be required over the next 10 years to support Dr Allan: The Scottish Government does not Scotland’s energy industries. employ teachers or classroom assistants directly and, therefore, it cannot guarantee levels of Ensuring that our schoolchildren have the employment in Stirling or any other local authority necessary skills to meet that challenge will make a area. However, other Scottish local authorities huge contribution to achieving Scotland’s have been able to avoid making cuts to such ambitious energy targets. Does the minister agree important jobs, so there is no obvious good reason that we must do all that we can to give our why Stirling Council could not drop the potentially schoolchildren at the earliest stage the awareness harmful plans and provide the same level of and skills that they may need to engage in that service as is provided elsewhere. huge employment opportunity? Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab): Angela Constance: I agree that it is absolutely Perhaps the minister could outline the not obvious imperative that young people—in particular, young good reason for Renfrewshire Council, under the women—are aware of the opportunities in the Scottish National Party, doing away with energy sector and that our schoolchildren have the classroom assistants. opportunity to develop the skills and qualifications that they need to unlock job opportunities in that Dr Allan: My understanding from the previous area. I am aware of the committee’s inquiry and its survey of teachers is that the number of classroom interest in getting more women to pursue science, assistants in Scotland has fallen by seven in the technology, engineering and mathematics and past year, so I am not sure that the picture that the careers in those subjects. member paints of a decline in classroom assistants across Scotland bears much As Chic Brodie will be aware, at the heart of examination. curriculum for excellence are skills for learning, life and work. Uptake and attainment in science and maths, particularly at higher and advanced higher level, continue to be strong.

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Post-16 Education (Scotland) between senior management and workers in the universities sector. In Scotland, the gap is a ratio Bill: Stage 3 of 1:16. The situation is out of step with Scotland’s egalitarian education tradition.

14:40 The pay differential in universities is higher than that in the public sector as a whole. It is wider than The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott): the gap between a four-star general and a private The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings in the army, and it is wider than the gap between on the Post-16 Education (Scotland) Bill. In the national health service chief executive and a dealing with the amendments, members should hospital porter. The average pay for a university have the bill as amended at stage 2, the principal is £240,000, which is far in excess of marshalled list and the groupings. The division bell what the United Kingdom Prime Minister earns. It will sound and proceedings will be suspended for is all the more worrying when we consider that a five minutes for the first division of the afternoon. recent NUS survey seemed to indicate that some The period of voting for the first division will be 30 universities in Scotland are not paying their seconds. Thereafter, I will allow a voting period of lowest-paid members of staff the living wage. one minute for the first division after a debate. Members who wish to speak in the debate on any Amendment 100 does not seek to dictate the group of amendments should press their request- salaries of university principals. It seeks to ensure to-speak button as soon as possible after I call the that staff and students are represented on the group. universities’ remuneration committees. From the start of the process, the cabinet secretary made it Section 2—Higher education institutions: clear that the chair’s job was not to rewrite the good governance original von Prondzynski report but, rather, to find a way in which to take his recommendations and The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 1 is on apply them across the sector through a code. The “Governance: consultation”. Amendment 5, in the consultation period on the draft code closed last name of Neil Findlay, is grouped with amendments week, and it is disappointing that the final code will 100, 16 and 76. not be published until after the stage 3 Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab): Through proceedings. amendments 5, 16 and 76, we want to ensure I do not think that I am alone in thinking that the that, when the principles that govern our chairs of university courts who first gave evidence universities are discussed, debated and/or even to the Education and Culture Committee were not changed, the main and most important particularly conciliatory. Indeed, their position on stakeholders in our universities are included in consultation with other stakeholders did not inspire those deliberations. That would include the confidence. I was more encouraged by the student associations that represent those who constructive attitude of Sir Robert Smith, who, at a attend universities, the trade unions that represent later evidence session, agreed to speak to the the staff in higher education, the business staff representatives about the code. community and other relevant groups. As things stand, the proposed code makes no The recent development of the code of reference to staff and students in its discussion of governance was heavily criticised by staff and remuneration, other than to note that remuneration students for being an exclusive exercise that was panels should be careful not to agree severance conducted by a narrow, self-appointed group and packages that staff and students might find excluded staff, unions and the National Union of excessive. The code should go further than that. Students. The amendments would ensure that that would not happen in future, and I hope that the Government will accept them. 14:45 We support Joan McAlpine’s amendment 100, I would like the cabinet secretary to state his which is on staff and students being on position on the presence of staff and students on remuneration committees. That is a good move remuneration panels and what message he would that will, I hope, open up the remuneration process intend us to send to universities on the subject of to more scrutiny, debate and transparency. executive pay. I move amendment 5. Like everyone else in this chamber, I am very proud of the performance of our universities and Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP): their ranking in international league tables. At the Amendment 100 is a probing amendment. It is same time, they must remember that they are in supported by the NUS, which, like me, is looking receipt of large amounts of public money, which for reassurances from the cabinet secretary. The brings with it certain responsibilities. Universities in NUS recognises the concern about the pay gap Scotland are not businesses; they are learning

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communities, and staff and students are key regrettable, but it is not out of keeping with the members of those communities, who should be way in which the bill has progressed since it was treated as such by management. introduced to Parliament. With that in mind, I will keep my remarks brief. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I should have drawn to members’ attention at the outset that we I remain sceptical of the need for statutory are tight for time and it would be helpful if we could underpinning of a code of good governance for our have succinct speeches. universities. I am still of the view that that encroaches into the responsible autonomy of Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): those institutions, which international evidence There is clearly a need to ensure an effective shows is a defining feature of the best-performing balance between the accountability of public universities worldwide. money and the autonomy that is enjoyed by colleges and universities to be responsible for the I welcome that Mr Russell has backed down, in running of their institutions. In our view, one of the so far as ministers will not now decree what reasons that the bill has been fraught with so constitutes good governance. That will fall to the many difficulties has been the sharp division of Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding opinion on that issue between the Scottish Council. However, I am not sure that the additional Government and the college and university layer of consultation that Neil Findlay seeks is sectors, which have seen the balance shift too necessary. much in favour of the Government and too much Joan McAlpine’s amendment 100 reflects public away from them. concern about pay levels and pay increases for The college and university sectors have rightly some of our senior academic positions, but I questioned which structures of governance and believe that it runs counter to corporate academic accountability can best deliver the very governance rules that remuneration committees high standards of further and higher education should be composed of directors external to the across Scotland and how they can maintain their organisation. Remuneration procedures need to competitive edge when measured against the rest be transparent and robust and staff and students of the world. That competitive edge is directly need a genuine and effective say in remuneration linked to the abilities of colleges and universities to decisions, but that can be achieved through their be innovative, diverse and flexible, and therefore enhanced roles in the governing body. they expect Government to respond to policies The Cabinet Secretary for Education and that will enhance those characteristics. They do Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): I will not not expect the Government to be interventionist, rehearse all the arguments that have been heard which is very much against international trends in already. Suffice it to say, we have endeavoured to further and higher education. develop and improve the bill by listening to the The sectors do not understand—neither do the sector and the Opposition parties as we have Scottish Conservatives—why there needs to be moved through the process. We have a series of extensive legislation to change governance amendments that continue that process, which I structures, when they can find no evidence that am pleased is taking place. existing governance structures undermine or in When Neil Findlay lodged at stage 2 a very some way hold back education outcomes for our similar amendment to his amendment 5 today, I students. They are puzzled when the main agreed—as I continue to agree—that consultation architect of the reform of governance tells them should be at the heart of the development of any that the existing structures are largely working governance standards that are adopted across very well indeed, yet they are told that there must universities. Progress has been made on that and be wholesale changes. That does not make other changes to the bill have achieved that. The sense. In particular, they worry deeply about the Scottish funding council’s existing duties allow for excessively prescriptive parts of the bill, which a sufficient level of consultation, which has also would see many governing bodies restrained in been improved by the bill. The Education and political straitjackets, without the ability to respond Culture Committee accepted that at stage 2 and well to the educational needs of what is a very the amendments are not substantively different diverse and competitive set-up. from those that were previously lodged in a way The sectors’ fears about the extent of that that makes me reconsider the position. intervention have led the Scottish Conservatives to Joan McAlpine’s amendment 100 raises an oppose a great deal in this section of the bill, and important point. I fully support the principle of we will do so again by opposing amendments 5, having more transparency in the area and I expect 100, 16 and 76. to see Professor von Prondzynski’s Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD): As the recommendations in that regard properly reflected Presiding Officer said, we are tight for time; that is in the final code of governance. Indeed, as I said

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during education questions, Lord Smith has now Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) indicated to me and to the convener of the Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Education and Culture Committee that he has Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) made substantial progress in that regard. Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Amendment 100 expresses an aim that I share Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) but, unfortunately, it will not achieve that aim. Our Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) universities are many and varied, as Liz Smith has Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) pointed out before now, and their governance Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) instruments—some of which date back hundreds Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) of years—introduce a level of complexity that the McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) amendment does not accommodate. McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Nevertheless, it is right that, when we see the final McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) code of governance, we should consider whether McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) further legislation is required in the proposed McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) higher education governance bill that I have Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) committed to bring to Parliament in the coming Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) years. As we know, there are some things in the Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) von Prondzynski recommendations that cannot be Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) implemented except by an underpinning statute of the type that von Prondzynski asked for. Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) I support my colleague Joan McAlpine’s aim, but Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) her amendment, alas, will not achieve that aim. I Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) therefore ask her not to move amendment 100— Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) the matter is very much taken to heart. Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Neil Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Findlay to wind up and to press or withdraw Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) amendment 5. Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Neil Findlay: I press amendment 5. Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) that amendment 5 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Members: No. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a shire) (SNP) division. As this is the first division in stage 3, I Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) suspend the meeting for five minutes. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) 14:51 Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Meeting suspended. Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) 14:56 FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) On resuming— Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith): Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) We move to the division on amendment 5. Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) For Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)

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Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Against Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) the division is: For 36, Against 80, Abstentions 0. Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Amendment 5 disagreed to. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Amendment Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- 100, in the name of Joan McAlpine, was debated shire) (SNP) with amendment 5. I ask Joan McAlpine to move Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) or not move amendment 5. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Joan McAlpine: Not moved. Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Amendment 100 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) that amendment 100 be agreed to. Are we Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) agreed? FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Members: No. Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and division. Lauderdale) (SNP) For Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)

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Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) This is the eighth set of gender-quota Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) amendments that I have moved in Parliament—I Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) moved four sets of such amendments during McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) consideration of the Police and Fire Reform McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) (Scotland) Bill and two during consideration of the McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Scottish Civil Justice Council and Criminal Legal McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Assistance Bill, and I have now moved such McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) amendments twice during consideration of the (SNP) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Post-16 Education (Scotland) Bill. Each time, my McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) amendments have been opposed by the Scottish McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) National Party. First, it said that it did not agree Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) with quotas. Now, it says that it agrees with them, Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) but does not have the power to implement them. Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) The rhetoric may have changed, but the reality Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) has not: the SNP is still not prepared to be bold for Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) the women of Scotland. Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) The SNP says that it has legal advice to back up Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) its position, but we will never see it and the SNP Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) will not tell us what it is. We have been here Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) before. [Interruption.] Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) 15:00 Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Jenny Marra: The reality is that we simply will Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) not get a fair judgment until the policy is tested. If Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) the Government were truly committed to the Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) policy, as the cabinet secretary has told me he is, (SNP) the Government would have lodged its own Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) amendments, which would have gone before the White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Lord Advocate for him to test. The Scotland Act Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) 1998 is tested constantly. Private legal advice is The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of not an excuse not to test the powers of the the division is: For 36, Against 80, Abstentions 0. Scottish Parliament, which are so important to the SNP. Amendment 100 disagreed to. Labour will support Clare Adamson’s After section 2 amendment 80. There is little to disagree with, because it simply restates duties that Labour The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 2 is on legislated for in the Equality Act 2010. However, equalities. Amendment 3, in the name of Jenny there is no doubt that we need to be more radical. Marra, is grouped with amendments 4 and 80. The Parliament has seen some of its best Jenny Marra: This week, the Equality and legislation passed when it has united to test the Human Rights Commission announced that it is powers of the Scotland Act 1998. Legal advice taking legal action against nine Scottish public initially said that the smoking ban was ultra vires, bodies for their failure to meet their equalities but the Government of the day took the risk and duties. It is able to take that legal action under the passed it into law. The lesson from the smoking Equality Act 2010, which Labour drove through ban is that the Scotland Act 1998 is fluid. Today, Westminster in 2010, and under the Equality Act we can take advantage of that fluidity to make a 2010 (Specific Duties) (Scotland) Regulations real difference to how our universities and colleges 2012, which the SNP passed in order to comply are run. with the 2010 act. We are not doing enough to tackle the lack of My amendments would make it a condition of female representation—80 per cent of people on payment to colleges and universities that their our public boards are men and only 27 per cent of governing bodies comprise at least 40 per cent university court members are women. This week, women and 40 per cent men. Only seven of our 34 public bodies in Scotland may find themselves in colleges have 40 per cent women on their court over their failure to address that. The time to governing bodies, and only one of our universities act is now. Our Scottish Parliament was not meets that target. designed simply to reiterate Westminster

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legislation. [Interruption.] That is exactly what the “a major shift in the culture of our governing bodies in cabinet secretary is doing. [Interruption.] Scotland”,—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, 7 May 2013; c 2342.] The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order, please. but both felt that the compulsory nature of the new Jenny Marra: Our Parliament was designed to governance code would help to bring that about use and test the powers that we have in order to and argued that time is needed to allow that make bold changes to the lives of people in change to take place. Scotland. I think that the Government has missed Although I have sympathy with amendment 3 in an opportunity to test its boldness. the name of Jenny Marra, and believe that her I move amendment 3. efforts now and at stage 2 have helped to reinforce Parliament’s expectations to the Clare Adamson (Central Scotland) (SNP): I university sector, I feel that it is not appropriate at lodged amendment 80 to address a critical issue this time to introduce the strict quota that she that the committee considered during its evidence proposes. There might be a better case to make gathering. A recurring theme was the lack of for taking that approach in the college sector, as is diversity, particularly in relation to gender, on proposed in amendment 4, in recognition of the university governing bodies. Although that is absence of the same type of governance code as clearly an issue in universities, my further research exists for higher education, but even then careful has shown that the situation in colleges is not consideration must be given to timeframes. much better. In both sectors, only about 30 per cent of board members are women. That situation Amendment 80 in the name of Clare Adamson is absolutely unacceptable, so I am pleased that is, for now, a helpful addition in underscoring the the cabinet secretary has given his explicit support need for greater diversity and equality of to addressing that inequality. opportunity in appointments to university governing bodies. As Simon Pepper suggested to Although I support the intention behind Jenny the committee, Marra’s amendments, I accept the cabinet secretary’s view that they are not within the “The proof of the pudding is in the eating”.—[Official Parliament’s legislative competence. I look forward Report, Education and Culture Committee, 7 May 2013; c to making “bold” decisions for the women of 2342.] Scotland. I suspect that if the pudding turns out to be not as Jenny Marra: Will Clare Adamson take an was expected, demands will very quickly grow for intervention? very different ingredients to be added. Clare Adamson: No, thank you. Michael Russell: No one is defending the woeful record of university and college boards. Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab): The boards themselves have accepted that the Take a bold decision. gender balance on them is atrocious—indeed, in some cases, it is more than atrocious. We need to The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. get that situation changed quickly, and that view is Clare Adamson: The bold decision would be to supported not only by me and the education team vote next year for the powers that would bring but by the equalities minister and the Government such amendments within the Parliament’s itself. legislative competence. The question is how we get there. Unfortunately, I accepted the cabinet secretary’s generous Jenny Marra’s suggestion shows a regrettable lack offer to work with those who had wanted to lodge of knowledge of what would actually happen were amendments on the subject and with the Minister we to pass amendment 3. [Interruption.] Presiding for Commonwealth Games and Sport to draft Officer, can I have the opportunity to make this amendment 80, which signals our desire to see point? meaningful progress being made, and which will The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. enable that to happen in a way that is within the Parliament’s current competence. Michael Russell: Essentially, amendment 3 is a wrecking amendment. The bill would go not to the Liam McArthur: As I said at stage 2, I firmly Lord Advocate but into constitutional limbo. It believe that one area in which the performance of would require the attention of the Advocate our university governing bodies needs to improve General—whoever that is—and the process would significantly is the diversity of their make-up. That take a considerable time. As a result, all the things view is shared by Lord Smith, who was that we are trying to achieve through the bill such unequivocal in setting out for the committee his as widening access, improving governance and expectations on what needs to happen over the mutualisation would go. Perhaps that is the idea; next few years. Both he and Simon Pepper talked of the need for

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perhaps Labour wants to put the bill into Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) constitutional limbo. Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) I have spoken to Jenny Marra on the matter, Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) have told her the facts and have indicated my Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) support—indeed the equalities minister has now Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) sought the support of the leader of the Labour Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Party on this—for getting responsibility for this Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) issue transferred to the Scottish Parliament. In that Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) way, Ms Marra’s fine nationalist rhetoric—she Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) made a good job of it—could be matched by Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) actions. Instead of her standing up and making a Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) speech about what needs to change, she could Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) vote for that change—and the most effective vote Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) for change would be to vote yes next year. McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) [Applause.] McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Michael Russell: Even if Jenny Marra is not McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) going to do that, she and her party might support Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) the necessary moves at Westminster to transfer Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) responsibility for equalities legislation to this Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Parliament. However, I will not hold my breath for Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) that change of heart. Against Clare Adamson’s amendment goes as far as we Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) can within the powers of the Parliament. I want to Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) go much further than that and to test the powers of Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) this Parliament; indeed, I want to test those Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) powers to destruction, which is what we will do Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) when we have independence. Let us recognise— Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) [Interruption.] Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Michael Russell: Let us recognise that we Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) cannot do that in this bill here and now unless we Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) wreck the bill here and now. If that is Labour’s Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) intention, I hope that Parliament rejects it. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) I would have been happy to make common Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- cause with Jenny Marra and to ensure that we had shire) (SNP) a united approach on the matter. I regret that she Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) was not willing to do so. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Do you wish to Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) press or withdraw amendment 3, Ms Marra? Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Jenny Marra: I will press amendment 3. Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) that amendment 3 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Members: No. FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) division. Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and For Lauderdale) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)

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MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) nature of the agreements between institutions and MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) the Scottish funding council. Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) It is important that ministers will retain the power Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) to drive the agenda but—this was the key point— Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) universities, with the agreement of the funding Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) council, will be able to go beyond that to extend McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) agreements to other groups, as they see fit. That McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) strikes the right balance between respecting McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) responsible autonomy—which we do, of course— McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) and ensuring that there is progress in an area in McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) which the track record has left a lot to be desired. McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) On the other amendments in the group, the McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) principles that underlaid Marco Biagi’s stage 2 McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) amendments were eminently sensible. His Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) updated versions in the group will widen the scope Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) and therefore the benefit of his previously lodged Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) amendments, and I am happy to support them. Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) I move amendment 7. Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP): I beg Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) the indulgence of members, as I have six Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) amendments in the group, which are in three sub- Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) groups, each of which I will outline in turn. Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Amendments 21, 24, 49 and 52 will create a Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) duty on the regional colleges and regional Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) strategic bodies to have regard to the desirability Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) of participation in further education and higher Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) education by underrepresented socioeconomic Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) groups. Scotland’s colleges do excellent work on Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) that already. Some 22 per cent of college students Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) come from the 20 per cent most deprived areas of (SNP) the country, and articulation with universities is a Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) well-trodden path that allows people from non- Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) traditional backgrounds to access full university degrees. The amendments will put into the new The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of founding statute what the sector does so well the division is: For 36, Against 81, Abstentions 0. already. Amendment 3 disagreed to. Amendment 77 will create a similar duty on the Scottish funding council, which is already required Section 3—Widening access to higher to have regard to a wide range of areas, including education skills needs, the economy, social and cultural The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 3 is on issues, sustainable development, the UK and widening access. Amendment 7, in the name of international context, and the educational support the cabinet secretary, is grouped with needs of students. Widening access to higher amendments 8, 10, 11, 15, 21, 24, 49, 52, 77, 78 education will now take its well-deserved place and 97. alongside those other priorities. Moreover, amendment 77 will ensure that the Scottish Michael Russell: Section 3 is at the very heart funding council will not simply have to pay heed to of the bill. During stage 2, we had a detailed the desirability of widening access, but will discussion about widening access provisions. promote the sharing of good practice among Liam McArthur in particular lodged a number of institutions. That is an important role for the amendments, which I opposed at the time Scottish funding council into which I hope it will because I felt that they went too far in diluting the grow over the coming years. effectiveness of the provision. However, I think that the entire committee agreed that there was Finally, amendment 78 will create a duty on the merit in some aspects of his proposals, so I have Scottish funding council to review and report every worked with Universities Scotland and the NUS three years on progress on widening access. We Scotland to agree some small but important have seen a lot of reviews of higher education in changes to the provision that will make clearer the these islands. In past years, our student communities have anxiously watched when

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another review—by Dearing, Cubie or Browne— Government proposes. However, that has been has come along with questions that have always rejected by the cabinet secretary. been asked in such a way that the answer would The Deputy Presiding Officer: I must hurry always be more fees, more charges and more you along. barriers. The reviews in question will focus on how we can open doors, rather than shut them. Neil Findlay: We acknowledge that there has Although they will be a lot less grandiose, I hope been progress during the progress of the bill and that they will be just as closely watched, well that the Government has acknowledged some of respected and deeply challenging, because we our arguments, but instead of accepting our cannot allow to continue the status quo of recent proposals, the Government has lodged decades in terms of socioeconomic participation. amendments in Marco Biagi’s name. Our genuine proposals were supported by a broad coalition of At stage 2, the cabinet secretary accepted the charities and campaign groups but, sadly, they principles of my amendments in those areas, but were rejected by the cabinet secretary. The bill is pointed out technical problems, which have been a lesser bill for that. addressed by our working together, so I hope that members will join the chorus of stakeholders, Liz Smith: I record Scottish Conservatives’ which includes Colleges Scotland, Universities support for the principle of widening access, which Scotland and NUS Scotland, in supporting the we believe is valuable not just for intrinsic amendments. educational reasons but for social and economic ones. I think that our parliamentary record over a We have in the chamber the shared objective long period substantiates that claim. that access to learning should be open to all. Embedding a clear and much-needed focus on We do, however, differ markedly from the widening access in our post-16 funding bodies will Scottish Government on where the policy focus help to achieve that vision. should be, and we remain very concerned about some of the unintended consequences of forcing universities to adopt prescriptive targets that are 15:15 enshrined in legislation, rather than to be bound by The Deputy Presiding Officer: Many thanks. A what are successful outcome agreements. Indeed, number of members wish to contribute to the we do not believe that we have ever been debate on group 3, but it is unlikely that I can call provided with an answer as to what additional you all. I ask those whom I call to be brief. benefits will accrue to universities from having Neil Findlay: Throughout the passage of the prescriptive legislation rather than outcome bill, Scottish Labour has been consistent in its agreements. Our belief is that the policy focus view that our universities need to open up access should be on schools far more than on tertiary so that many more people have the opportunity to education. access higher education. It is not acceptable that We are conscious of the unanimous support for some of our higher education institutions have the widening access principle, but we have had made such little progress in that area and continue great difficulty with the sections of the bill that are to draw students from a very narrow section of overly prescriptive. We are also very conscious of society. Higher education should be accessible to the universities’ lobbying of the cabinet secretary students from all classes, backgrounds and to ensure that ministers will not be able to cultures. intervene in admissions policy. On that basis, we Throughout the debate, Scottish Labour has will support amendments 7, 8, 10, 11 and 15. sought to amend the bill, working with disability Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP): I charities, NUS Scotland and others, so that the very much welcome the amendments in group 3 in system can be opened up and can enhance the the names of the cabinet secretary and Marco prospect that disabled students and others, Biagi. As the cabinet secretary said, the including those from the SIMD—Scottish index of amendments are at the very heart of the bill and multiple deprivation—20 most deprived areas, will are a crucial part of the process that underpins gain access to higher education. It was a great much of what we have been trying to do in getting disappointment that the cabinet secretary rejected the bill through. Neil Findlay’s amendments at the very progressive proposals on that. We lodged stage 2 were, of course, comprehensively such amendments again for stage 3, but they were defeated, so it is not surprising that they have not not selected. come back at stage 3. Let me state clearly, so that there can be no I very much welcome amendments 7, 8, 10, 11, misrepresentation of our position—as has 15 and 97, which I believe have been negotiated frequently been done in the past by the cabinet and agreed with outside stakeholders including secretary—that we support widening access and, Universities Scotland and NUS Scotland. I think indeed, we want to go further than the that that is a very welcome development in the

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process. Obviously, the amendments will change The Deputy Presiding Officer: I can allow an the nature of the widening access provision and I extremely brief contribution from George Adam. think that they much better reflect the process George Adam (Paisley) (SNP): For me, between the SFC and the universities, which is widening access is the most important part of the very welcome for dealing with widening access bill. I say that for personal reasons because my agreements. constituency includes Ferguslie Park, which is an Amendment 7 will broaden the scope of area of multiple deprivation. We need to provide agreements so that they can include additional opportunities for all our young people in Scotland, groups that are agreed by the SFC and the including those from areas such as Ferguslie Park. institution. Again, that is very welcome. Until now, progress on widening access has Amendment 10 is important because it will ensure been extremely slow; an increase of 1 percentage that the institution has the obligation to consult; in point in the past nine years is just not good other words, as the amendment states, the enough. Some Opposition parties say that they “higher education institution must consult”. support widening access, but they vote against it Again, that is a very welcome change. when they get the opportunity to do so. I find that quite a strange thing for anyone to do because, as The Deputy Presiding Officer: I must hurry the cabinet secretary quite rightly said, widening you along. access is at the very heart of the bill. Stewart Maxwell: I very much welcome Marco Neil Findlay: Will George Adam give way? Biagi’s amendments, which include the previously suggested changes. I point, Presiding Officer, to George Adam: I do not have time. amendment 78, which will create a duty for the On 19 February, the NUS Scotland president SFC to review and provide a report. Again, I think Robin Parker told the Education and Culture that that is an extremely welcome development. Committee: The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you very “The legislation must happen. ... A year ago, it would much. Very briefly, Liam McArthur. have taken 40 years if things had carried on at the current rate.”—[Official Report, Education and Culture Committee, Liam McArthur: As others have said, whatever 19 February 2013; c 1985-8.] progress has been made over recent years in For me, that rate of progress is just not good terms of widening access, it has been far too slow enough for the young people of Scotland. and has started from a very low base. The minister is therefore right to attach priority to addressing The Deputy Presiding Officer: I am afraid that the issue, although I think that he has failed to I must ask you to conclude. make the case for why legislation is essential. Widening access agreements are now being George Adam: In my area, the University of the developed and the funding levers that he has West of Scotland has managed to attract more always had at his disposal, as both carrot and than 20 per cent of its students from lower-income stick, will determine whether ambitions are met. areas. UWS provides a perfect example of how we can move forward to ensure that all young people Nevertheless, as the minister is determined to in Scotland have the opportunity. press on with his approach, it is important that we establish certain safeguards. The need to broaden The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call the the definition of what constitutes an under- cabinet secretary to wind up the debate. represented group was a key feature of evidence Michael Russell: However we got here, we at stage 1 and of amendments, including mine, at have got here. I hope that we can now legislate on stage 2. In that context, I welcome the widening access, which is needed to drive forward amendments in group 3, which reflect the progress that has been too slow. consensus that has emerged on the issue. I will not spoil the moment by disputing all the The review requirements that are set out in various arguments that we have heard. I have Marco Biagi’s amendment 78 are also worthwhile listened—I certainly listened to Liam McArthur, as provisions. I said in my opening remarks—but I have listened I note that the cabinet secretary’s amendments particularly to Universities Scotland and NUS 7, 8, 10 and 15 acknowledge, however belatedly, Scotland. I pay tribute to Robin Parker, who is just that widening access agreements flow from higher finishing his period of two years as president of education institutions, albeit in consultation with NUS Scotland. He has been a tower of strength in other stakeholders. Indeed, despite his taking the issue forward, which he has driven protestations at stage 2, he now seems to believe almost personally, and he certainly deserves much that such agreements are “a creature of the of the credit for it. universities”. Amendment 7 agreed to.

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Amendments 8, 10, 11 and 15 moved—[Michael Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Russell]—and agreed to. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) After section 3 Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Amendment 16 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) that amendment 16 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Members: No. Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) division. Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) For Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) the division is: For 36, Against 80, Abstentions 0. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Amendment 16 disagreed to. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP)

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Section 5—Regional colleges situation will be repeated in almost every part of Scotland. The Deputy Presiding Officer: That brings us to group 4, which is on regional colleges and I would of course prefer courses to be retained regional strategic boards: functions etc. at their present locations but, if they are to be Amendment 101, in the name of Neil Bibby, is moved to different parts of a region, there must be grouped with amendments 102, 103, 17 to 20, 22, engagement with transport providers to ensure 23, 45 to 48, 50, 51, 106 to 109, 53 and 119. adequate transport provision between college campuses for staff and students. That is Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab): There are necessary in relation to the regionalisation 21 amendments in group 4, which is on the agenda. Even if that agenda was not happening functions of regional colleges and regional through the bill, it would make sense to consult strategic bodies. Amendments 101, 106 and 109 and work with transport providers that serve local in my name would ensure that colleges engage colleges. I believe that the whole Parliament must fully with community planning partners in their support amendments 103 and 108. areas. I lodged similar amendments at stage 2 and I lodged amendments on the same issue for today I am happy to support amendments 17 and 45 because I believe that colleges should consult in the name of Mike Russell and related community planning partners when decisions are amendments. I was surprised that references to taken. local economic and social wellbeing were not originally included in the bill. As the cabinet Colleges are a vital part of the community and secretary and members of the Education and should work with community planning partners Culture Committee will know, I lodged when possible. It is vital that, as well as meeting a amendments at stage 2 that called for regional community’s general needs, colleges should meet boards and regional strategic bodies to have a an area’s economic needs. We have seen some duty to promote social cohesion and inclusion and concessions on that through the cabinet local economic regeneration and to have regard to secretary’s amendments 17 and 45, so I hope that regeneration plans that affect a college’s locality. we will also see concessions on consultation with community planning partners. I therefore welcome the lodging of amendments to that effect at stage 3. At a time of high Similarly, amendments 102 and 107 would unemployment, it is vital that our colleges continue ensure that colleges engage and work with to play a key role in helping people back to work. community health partnerships. Unfortunately, far Prior to stage 2, there was a complete lack of a too many of the communities in which colleges are specific regional focus. We know that different situated have high levels of health inequalities. It is regions face different challenges and have important that colleges consult community health different needs and priorities. The amendments partnerships and, when possible, work with them will address what were, in my opinion, glaring to resolve issues when health and education omissions, so I am happy to support them. services overlap. Amendments 102 and 107 are simple, reasonable and necessary. I move amendment 101. My amendments 103 and 108 would require Michael Russell: Amendments 17 and 45 fulfil regional colleges and regional strategic bodies to commitments that I gave to Neil Bibby in consult transport providers that serve the areas in committee at stage 2 to place new duties on which colleges are situated. Those amendments regional colleges and regional strategic bodies in are important, particularly given the regionalisation relation to economic and social regeneration and agenda. We are hearing more and more concerns social inclusion and cohesion. I am grateful to him about the prospect of courses not being available for the positive role that he played in raising the at local colleges because they have been moved issue. The duties are part of a wider duty on to other campuses in a region. regional colleges and regional strategic bodies to improve economic and social wellbeing in their The Education and Culture Committee has localities. heard about construction courses being moved from Dalkeith in Midlothian to the other side of Amendments 18 to 20, 22, 23, 46 to 48, 50 and Edinburgh. To put it simply, if such changes 51 integrate more generally into the bill local continue, as we fear that they will, transport matters, by which I mean skills needs and providers must be consulted. I have said many economic, social and cultural issues. Local times that, in my West Scotland region, I regularly matters are for the regional bodies to determine. hear concerns about the possibility of a lack of National issues will be for the Scottish funding transport for people who want to travel between council, in consultation with ministers, as is the Clydebank and Greenock. Such a situation would case now. Given the way in which the bill is be very problematic. If that is the case in West constructed, a lot of amendments—nine in total— Scotland and Edinburgh, I am pretty sure that the

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are required to deliver on one good idea, but I am The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, satisfied that the result will be a better bill. that amendment 101 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Amendment 53 will align the consultation provisions in new section 23K of the Further and Members: No. Higher Education (Scotland) Act 2005 with similar The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a provisions elsewhere in the bill. Amendment 119 division. will enable ministers to obtain from a regional strategic body, a regional college or an assigned For college such information as they may reasonably Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) require in connection with the exercise of their Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) functions under the 2005 act. Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) At stage 2, Neil Bibby lodged identical Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) amendments to today’s amendments 101 to 103 Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) and 106 to 109, and I outlined then the good Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) reasons why I cannot support them. It is true that Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) colleges play an important role in CPPs, but the Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Government will consult this summer on a draft Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) community empowerment and renewal bill, which Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) will be the appropriate vehicle for considering the Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) issue if any changes are to take place. Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) 15:30 Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) There is nothing preventing colleges and Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) regional strategic bodies from consulting Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) community health partnerships, transport Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) providers and community planning partnerships. Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) During my meeting at Adam Smith College two Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) weeks ago, we discussed the role that the college Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) could play in assisting with transportation, as Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) many colleges have always done. I see no McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) convincing reason to place a statutory obligation McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) on them to do so. McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Liam McArthur: As I said in the stage 1 debate, McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) I feel that the cabinet secretary is pursuing an McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) interventionist and controlling agenda in relation to Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) our colleges, which is unwise and, in many cases, Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) counterproductive. Nevertheless, I accept that a Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) number of more positive steps are being taken in Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) the group of amendments. Amendments that Against reinforce the need for regional colleges to focus on Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) their locality’s needs and in particular on skills and Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) on regeneration needs are helpful, albeit that they Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) rather confirm what is the bread and butter of most Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) of our colleges already. Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) I was happy to support Neil Bibby’s Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) amendments at stage 2, as they helped to make Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) the point that the Government needed to expand Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) its horizons on those with whom engagement is Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) needed in any given locality, notably on the Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) transport aspects of college mergers. However, Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) those amendments have now been overtaken by Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) other changes that have been made to the bill. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: I ask Neil Bibby Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- to wind up and indicate whether he intends to shire) (SNP) press or withdraw amendment 101. Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Neil Bibby: I have nothing more to add, and I Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) will press the amendment. Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)

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Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Members: No. Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) division. FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) For Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Against Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) the division is: For 37, Against 80, Abstentions 0. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Amendment 101 disagreed to. Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Amendment 102 moved—[Neil Bibby]. Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) that amendment 102 be agreed to. Are we Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) agreed? FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)

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Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Against Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of shire) (SNP) the division is: For 37, Against 78, Abstentions 0. Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Amendment 102 disagreed to. Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Amendment 103 moved—[Neil Bibby]. Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) that amendment 103 be agreed to. Are we Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) agreed? Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Members: No. FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) division. Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and For Lauderdale) (SNP)

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Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) of Neil Findlay, is grouped with amendments 26 to Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) 36, 60 to 64, 112, 65 to 70, 85 to 88, 115, 89 to 91 Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) and 99. Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Neil Findlay: Amendments 25 and 26 would Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) ensure that staff representation on college boards Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) is drawn from the relevant trade unions that MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) represent staff at our colleges. Trade unions are MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) recognised as representative of college staff, and MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) it is right that they are represented on the boards Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) of the colleges to which they contribute so much. MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Governance will be better for their presence. Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Amendments 27 and 63 would ensure that Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) recommendations of appointments to boards are McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) made by the board and submitted to the chair and McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) ministers for final approval. That will give the McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) board the power to make its own appointment, McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) which is the right thing to do. McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) Amendment 28 would increase representation McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) to two members from one, which would ensure McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) that colleges that are not regional colleges will McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) have two staff representatives on boards and that Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) the set-up is similar to that of regional colleges. Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) We accept Mike Russell’s amendments 29 and Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) 31 because they are similar to my amendment 28 Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) in that they would ensure that colleges will have Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) two staff representatives—one teaching and one Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) non-teaching—which is the same as the regional Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) colleges. Amendments 30, 60 and 61 will ensure Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) that representation of teaching and non-teaching Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) staff will come from those recognised trade Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) unions. Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Amendments 32 and 33 seek to ensure that Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) assigned college boards will be able to appoint Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) their own board members in the same way as Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) regional colleges, recognising the role of the Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) regional strategic body and that its approval will be Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) needed to appoint other members. Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) I move amendment 25. White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Michael Russell: Amendments 65, 66, 68 to 70 The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of and 89 to 91 will ensure that a person who is the division is: For 37, Against 79, Abstentions 0. removed by ministers for reasons of mismanagement from one relevant board that is Amendment 103 disagreed to. an incorporated college board or regional board Amendments 17 to 20 moved—[Michael will be removed from all such boards. Russell]—and agreed to. The effect of Government amendment 99 will be Amendment 21 moved—[Marco Biagi]—and that, if a person cannot be a member of an agreed to. incorporated college board or regional board, they will also be barred from being a member of or Amendments 22 and 23 moved—[Michael serving on the Scottish funding council. Russell]—and agreed to. Government amendments 29, 31, 86, 87 and 88 Amendment 24 moved—[Marco Biagi]—and provide for two elected staff members on assigned agreed to. college boards—one elected by teaching staff and one by non-teaching staff—and make related Section 6—Colleges: boards of management provisions relating to their tenure. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 5 is on Amendments 67 and 85 relate to terms and board membership. Amendment 25, in the name conditions of appointment. Amendment 67

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prevents a regional board from setting the terms Likewise, we believe that there has to be and conditions of the appointment to the board of maximum consultation on board appointments and an assigned college chair. Amendment 85 makes an appointments process that has full provision for who sets the terms and conditions of transparency and the appropriate lines of incorporated college board members. accountability. For example, we prefer to see other member appointments to assigned college boards Amendments 34, 35 and 64 ensure that relevant to be approved by the regional strategic body. staff unions are consulted on the election rules Board membership is crucial to the good workings relating to staff members on incorporated college of our colleges, but we strongly believe that it must boards and regional boards. reflect the diversity of the college sector, bringing Amendment 62 increases the minimum number to it a variety of experience and skills rather than of “ordinary” members of a regional board. It would being too prescriptive. ensure that a regional board with three assigned On amendment 36, we are of the strong opinion colleges would have a maximum board size of 18. that colleges work best when there is clear Mr Findlay’s amendments 25, 26, 28, 30, 60 and collaboration between the different institutions and 61 are identical to those that he lodged on the when there is similar collaboration between the same topic—that of trade union nominees on different institutions, the Scottish funding council boards—at stage 2. As I committed to doing, I and the Scottish Government. That collaboration have reflected and consulted on the matter. While can be effective only if there is mutual trust I recognise the value of trade union experience between the different partners—I use the word and background on boards—the bill achieves “partner” advisedly—and when the professional major gains for trade unions—I have concluded relationships are built on consultation. Too often in that I do not want to exclude anybody. I want to this bill, the Scottish Government has sought to leave it to boards to determine how, in addition to impose its will on colleges in a way that the two elected staff members, they access and undermines that mutual trust. utilise such expertise, subject to any guidance that Amendment 36 therefore requires the Scottish is issued on appointments. I will consult on the ministers to consult the existing board fully, prior to appointments guidance, as the bill would require making any transfer or new appointment of board me to do. members—which will obviously be part of the Amendments 32 and 33 proposed by Mr Findlay transitional arrangements for new boards. In that take us back to assigned college boards being way, there will be a process based on agreement responsible for their own appointments, albeit with rather than on the whim of the Government. the regional strategic body’s approval. If that is Neil Bibby: Amendments 112 and 115, which how regional strategic bodies want to work with are supported by Colleges Scotland, would their colleges, that is fine, but it should be a matter prevent a board member from being barred for regional strategic bodies to determine. That is permanently from holding office. A board member the hierarchy that the bill seeks to establish. I will could be removed for a number of reasons and, make that clear in the appointments guidance. while it may be justified the majority of the time, Amendments 27 and 63 that have been lodged we have to be realistic and accept that, on by Mr Findlay prescribe a level of detail that I think occasion, it may not be justified. Is it is therefore is inappropriate for legislation. right to bar someone permanently? Liz Smith: Two of the great advantages of our The Government’s amendments would prevent college system, particularly since 1992, are its a board member who has been removed from a diversity and flexibility, which give it the ability to board from sitting on any college board ever. That respond to local needs. Since those features are compares to a fixed five-year ban for someone clearly those that bring success to the college who has committed a criminal offence, proposed sector, it makes sense to ensure that the by the cabinet secretary. Many people would see it management of our colleges reflects that diversity as disproportionate to bar a board member and flexibility. permanently. That is why the Scottish Conservatives have Central to the amendments is the fact that they been reluctant to see overly prescriptive changes would give former board members the opportunity to management structures and especially to board to apply to hold office after a period of four years, membership. For example, we would not wish to which is effectively a one-term ban. Clearly, if they put in place any structures that, while allowing were not deemed fit to hold office again, they trade unions to be eligible for board membership, would not. Any application process would take into would exclude other staff who are not members of account previous conduct and any previous trade unions. offences.

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Amendments 112 and 115 give us the chance to for a suitable but not disproportionate period of make the ban for a removed board member more exclusion and full transparency in any future proportionate and prevent board members from application processes. By contrast, the minister’s being permanently banned from holding office. I amendments 89 and 90—and even 70—seem urge members to support the amendments. rather open ended. I can support most of the rest of the minister’s 15:45 amendments in this group. I note, however, that The Deputy Presiding Officer: A few members amendment 85 could be improved by allowing wish to speak, so I would appreciate brief other member appointments to assigned colleges contributions. to be approved rather than set by the regional strategic board. Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green): I slightly expected Mr Findlay to make more of a case for The Deputy Presiding Officer: I ask Neil his amendments 25 and 26 in his opening speech. Findlay to wind up and indicate whether he intends I ask him to clarify, in his closing speech, whether to press or withdraw his motion. he considered lodging an amendment that would Neil Findlay: I have no further comments to guarantee unions the ability to participate in the make. I will press my amendment. boards but would not exclude non-union staff members from being considered for that role. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Surely that would be a more inclusive approach. that amendment 25 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Could he explain his reasons for not approaching Members: No. the issue in that way? The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Colin Beattie (Midlothian North and division. Musselburgh) (SNP): I am concerned that Mr Findlay’s amendments 25, 26, 28, 30, 60 and 61 For remove the stated intention regarding staff Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) representation on the board of assigned colleges. Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mr Findlay proposes to increase the number of Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) members of the board who are elected by trade Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) unions to two while alternative representation from Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) teaching staff and non-teaching staff seems to be Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) eliminated. In some colleges, now or in the future, Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) there might be more than two trade union or staff Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) associations represented, while in others there Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) might only be one. In such cases, how will the Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) proposed trade union representatives be Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) determined? Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) It also seems to be entirely possible that, under Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) the existing proposals, staff representatives could Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) well be trade union or staff association members. Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Nothing seems to exclude that possibility. I Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) struggle, therefore, to see the need for Mr Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Findlay’s amendments. McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Liam McArthur: I think that Neil Findlay’s McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) amendments 25, 26, 30, 60 and 61 are unduly McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) prescriptive in terms of staff representation. McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) However, I welcome his amendments 27, 28, 32, Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) 33 and 63, which make helpful changes to the way Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) in which board appointments are made for Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) regional and assigned colleges as well as Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) increasing staff representation. Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Against Liz Smith’s amendment 56, which stipulates consultation with an existing board in relation to Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) the transfer or new appointment of board Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) members, is entirely sensible. Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Neil Bibby’s amendments 112 and 115 also Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) offer a pragmatic solution to dealing with instances Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) in which mismanagement has occurred, allowing Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)

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Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) the division is: For 32, Against 80, Abstentions 0. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) Amendment 25 disagreed to. Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Amendment 26 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) that amendment 26 be agreed to. Are we all Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) agreed? Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Members: No. Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) division. Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) For Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Against Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)

21599 26 JUNE 2013 21600

Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- the division is: For 35, Against 81, Abstentions 0. shire) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Amendment 26 disagreed to. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Amendment 27 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) that amendment 27 be agreed to. Are we all Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) agreed? Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Members: No. FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) division. Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) For Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Against Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)

21601 26 JUNE 2013 21602

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Amendment 27 disagreed to. Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Amendment 28 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) that amendment 28 be agreed to. Are we all Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) agreed? Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Members: No. Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) division. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) For Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Against The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) the division is: For 52, Against 64, Abstentions 0. Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)

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Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) that amendment 30 be agreed to. Are we all Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) agreed? Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Members: No. Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) division. Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) For Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Against Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of shire) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) the division is: For 53, Against 62, Abstentions 0. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Amendment 28 disagreed to. Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Amendment 29 moved—[Michael Russell]—and Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) agreed to. Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Amendment 30 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)

21605 26 JUNE 2013 21606

Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Members: No. FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) division. Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and For Lauderdale) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Against The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) the division is: For 35, Against 81, Abstentions 0. Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Amendment 30 disagreed to. Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 31 moved—[Michael Russell]—and Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) agreed to. Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 32 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) that amendment 32 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)

21607 26 JUNE 2013 21608

Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) the division is: For 53, Against 63, Abstentions 0. Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 32 disagreed to. Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Amendment 33 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) that amendment 33 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Members: No. Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) division. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- For shire) (SNP)

21609 26 JUNE 2013 21610

Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Lauderdale) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) shire) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Lauderdale) (SNP) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) (SNP) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) the division is: For 54, Against 63, Abstentions 0. McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Amendment 33 disagreed to. (SNP) Amendment 34 moved—[Michael Russell]—and McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) agreed to. McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 35 moved—[Michael Russell]. Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) that amendment 35 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Members: No. Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) division. Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) For Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

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Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Against Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) the division is: For 81, Against 35, Abstentions 0. Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 35 agreed to. Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Amendment 36 moved—[Liz Smith]. Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) that amendment 36 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Members: No. Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) division. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- For shire) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)

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FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) However, we are concerned about the lack of Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) clarity over what constitutes mismanagement and Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) we have lodged some amendments to try to Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) tighten up the definition. There must be Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) consistency with the code of governance and its Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) principles when all alleged instances of Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) mismanagement are evaluated—something that is Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) not entirely clear in the bill as it stands. In that Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) respect, we feel strongly that any attempt to MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) remove board members should be set against that MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) code of good governance. Amendment 37 would Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) ensure that serious or repeated breaches of the MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) code would provide grounds for removal, but Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) would not confuse that with other instances of Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) possible mismanagement. McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) We are concerned about the line in section 7 McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) that talks about board members (SNP) “failing ... to discharge ... their duties”. McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) That is too open-ended, and it is open to different McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) interpretations. Amendment 38 seeks to remove Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) that line. Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) We also believe that any orders made by Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Scottish ministers to remove board members Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) should be subject to consultation with the Scottish Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) funding council, since that reflects a more open Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) process of discussing whether a college has not Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) been able to fulfil the conditions set by the council. Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Amendment 39 is specifically designed to ensure Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) that such consultation takes place and that there is Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) the safeguard of allowing for careful and (SNP) independent scrutiny of any situations involving Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) alleged serious or repeated breaches of the code. White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Currently, the bill will allow ministers to argue that repeated or serious breaches of any condition The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of of grant are grounds for removal. That could the division is: For 54, Against 62, Abstentions 0. include, for example, outcome agreement targets Amendment 36 disagreed to. not being met. If a college breaches its targets in that way, financial penalties will result. Given that Section 7—Colleges: mismanagement the code of governance is being introduced as a condition of grant, it will fall within that provision as The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 6 is on well. Amendment 73 would ensure that the only mismanagement. Amendment 37, in the name of condition of grant for which serious or repeated Liz Smith, is grouped with amendments 38, 39, breaches could result in removal from the board 105 and 73 to 75. would be those that relate to the code of governance. 16:00 Amendment 74 would remove the line that Liz Smith: Obviously, college mismanagement refers to regional boards occurs in relatively few situations, but when it “failing to discharge” occurs it is essential that definitions are clear and due process ensues. That is why at stage 2 the their Scottish Conservatives lodged amendments to “duties properly”, introduce a code of governance that is similar to the enhanced one that will operate in the which we consider too vague and open to university sector. We believe that exactly the same interpretation, if not abuse. principles are relevant and that if the code Amendment 75 would secure the important operates well, it should reduce further the safeguard of requiring ministers to consult the incidence of mismanagement. Scottish funding council before appointing another board member.

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I move amendment 37. Liam McArthur: I begin by addressing amendments 39 and 75, to which I have lent my Neil Bibby: When ministers aim to give support. As I have said in earlier proceedings, I themselves more powers to fire members of public remain concerned about the extent and range of body boards, we need to consider what safety powers over our colleges that the cabinet mechanisms are needed. As the Colleges secretary feels need to be vested in his hands. His Scotland briefing states, Mike Russell has sought wholly regrettable spat with the former chair of to extend his powers to remove board members to Stow College at the end of last year provided a include potential removal for breaches of any disturbing insight into the frustration that he condition of grant—for example, not meeting obviously feels at his lack of hiring and firing targets set in outcome agreements—and for powers. Along with amendments 37 and 38, which failure to discharge duties. would link any decision to remove a college board It is therefore more than reasonable that further member to the code of governance rather than the action is taken to limit those powers appropriately. more open-ended and potentially subjective I support Liz Smith’s amendments 37 and 73, discharge-of-their-duties requirement, which would limit possible causes of removal to amendments 39 and 75 would require any breaches of the code of governance, and ministerial order to that effect to be subject to amendments 38 and 74, which would remove consultation with the funding council. If nothing broad ministerial powers to remove board else, that would give some reassurance that any members for failure to discharge duties. action was not being taken for merely personal or even political reasons. My amendment 105 calls for the establishment of an independent panel to review decisions to I also offer my support to Neil Bibby’s remove college board members. There is amendment 105, which revisits an issue that was particular unease about this area of the bill. It was touched on at the end of yet another long and put to me, even last week, that there could have rather tetchy committee session at stage 2. I got been a role for the Standards Commission for the impression that the cabinet secretary was, at Scotland in cases of dissatisfaction about conduct, that stage, not unsympathetic to the idea of an as I understand that it already has a statutory role appeal mechanism in instances when board in the oversight of college governance. members have been removed. I may have misread that, however, as there is no alternative Some safety mechanism should be in place. If a amendment from the Government as far as I can member of staff is removed, they have the right to see. Even if Mr Russell were to accept the case appeal, so it is reasonable that a board member that Liz Smith and I are making for wider should have the same right if they are removed by consultation on such orders, there would still be a the cabinet secretary. I would expect the cabinet strong argument for a right of appeal to be secretary to think that that was reasonable and I available to those who are subject to ministerial would be disappointed if he did not. The fact is dismissal. I look forward to hearing what the that the cabinet secretary’s judgment could be cabinet secretary has to say. called into question in certain circumstances—we all know that it has been called into question in the Michael Russell: I am minded to support past. amendment 39, despite the fact that Mr McArthur has tried to talk me out of it. The reality is that I When taking evidence, we heard concerns was sympathetic at stage 2. I am happy to support about the level of ministerial control, so although I the amendment, which is a Colleges Scotland hope that the cabinet secretary’s judgment would amendment. be sound in such situations, I also hope that members will support amendment 105, to allow an The Griggs review recommended independent appeal panel to review decisions to “the removal of the Chair and/or Board if they do not fulfil remove board members. That would reassure the required outcomes.” people who might find themselves in that position. Amendments 37, 73, 38 and 74 would unduly The cabinet secretary said at stage 2 that such restrict the powers to remove board members, an amendment was not necessary or desirable, taking us back to the largely process-focused but I think that a former board member in that provisions that we have now. Adherence to any position would find the provision both necessary code of governance would be a condition of grant, and desirable. The option of judicial review would so the bill already provides a mechanism for be a costly and time-consuming exercise. removing board members if they fail to deliver on We also welcome amendments 39 and 75, the code. However, that is not the only type of which would introduce a requirement for the condition of grant. Outcome agreements, for Scottish funding council to be consulted on any example, would be terms and conditions of SFC proposed removal. It is important that such grant to regional colleges and regional or strategic assessments are made more objectively. bodies. Serious or repeated breaches of an

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outcome agreement would, therefore, be grounds Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) for the removal of board members. Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) In its written evidence to the Education and Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Culture Committee, West Lothian College Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) summed up the issue well. It stated: Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) “The Board notes the introduction of Ministerial powers Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) to remove chairs and other members for reasons of failure Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) in addition to mismanagement. The Board reiterates its Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) view that it has no difficulty with being audited against a set Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) of agreed outcomes.” Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) I fail to see why failure to discharge duties—failure Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) to discharge legal obligations—is not also an Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) appropriate ground for removal. Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) I have some sympathy for the idea behind Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) amendment 105, but the amendment has no detail Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) at all. It is not clear how recourse to an McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) independent review panel would sit alongside the McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) existing mechanism of parliamentary scrutiny— McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) nothing is clear in the amendment. McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Amendments 39 and 75, in the name of Liz McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Smith, which are supported by Liam McArthur, McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) provide a much better way to achieve an McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) independent look: consultation with the SFC Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) before an order can be made. The amendments Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) are supported by Colleges Scotland. I therefore Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) urge members to support amendments 39 and 75 Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) and to reject the rest. Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott): I Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) call Liz Smith to wind up and to press or withdraw Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) amendment 37. Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Liz Smith: I am grateful for the support that has been given to some of the amendments, Against particularly amendment 39, which I consider to be Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) very important. Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) There is a concern about the definition of Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) mismanagement, and the cabinet secretary will be Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) conscious of the concerns that have been raised Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) throughout the evidence-taking process about Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) what “discharging duties” means. On that basis, I Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) press amendment 37. Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) that amendment 37 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Members: No. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) For Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)

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Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Against (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) the division is: For 53, Against 63, Abstentions 0. Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Amendment 37 disagreed to. Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Amendment 38 moved.—[Liz Smith.] Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) that amendment 38 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Members: No. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) For Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)

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Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) Against Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) the division is: For 53, Against 63, Abstentions 0. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Amendment 38 disagreed to. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Amendment 39 moved—[Liz Smith]—and shire) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) agreed to. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Amendment 105 moved.—[Neil Bibby]. Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) that amendment 105 be agreed to. Are we Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) agreed? Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Members: No. Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) For FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)

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Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) 16:15 Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 8 is on Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) other regional strategic bodies: terms and Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) conditions of funding. Amendment 44, in the name Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) of Liam McArthur, is grouped with amendments 95 Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) and 96. Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Liam McArthur: With amendment 44, I return to Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) another issue that I raised at stage 2 and on which Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) I think that there is common ground between me Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) and the cabinet secretary and, indeed, among Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) members from across the Highlands and Islands Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) region. Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) It has generally been accepted that the prior Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) existence of the University of the Highlands and White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Islands and the unique way in which it is Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) structured and delivers further and higher The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of education through a range of campuses across the division is: For 41, Against 73, Abstentions 0. the largest and most rural of Scotland’s regions set it apart from the other institutions. It is not Amendment 105 disagreed to. surprising, therefore, that special attention has been required to deal with the way in which the bill Section 8—Regional strategic bodies impacts on and interacts with UHI and its various The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 7 is on colleges, all of which are already highly the designation of regional boards and assigned networked, but each of which is critically important colleges. Amendment 40, in the name of Michael for the local economy and the community in which Russell, is grouped with amendments 41 to 43. it is based. Michael Russell: Amendment 40 would remove As I said at stage 2, and as was well argued by the entry establishing a regional board for the chairs of Perth College and Moray College in Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire colleges because their evidence to the committee, the Highlands the colleges in the region are proposing to merge. and Islands will be the only region that will be That is an indication of the progress that has been managed by a non-FE body, with the UHI court made since the bill was introduced. having been designated the regional strategic body for delivering FE. Although an FE board will Amendment 41 would require the funding operate as a sub-committee, concerns remain that council to propose or agree to the removal of a the potential exists for future difficulties with college from the list of bodies eligible for council funding and governance arrangements. To date, funding, the purpose of which is to ensure that the the assurances that the minister and the UHI court council is satisfied that proper arrangements are in have given have been insufficient to fully address place for a multi-college region before stepping those anxieties, and further safeguards are being away from the funding process for assigned sought by a number of the colleges concerned. colleges. That is what my amendment 44 seeks to do—it is Amendment 42 is consequential to amendments about protecting the structures and, importantly, made at stage 2. It gives the funding council the the flow of funds. At the same time, it attempts to role of proposing or approving colleges new to take on board the wording problems that arose at public funding, when assigned to a regional stage 2. strategic body. Amendment 42 adds regional That said, I am grateful to Mr Russell for his strategic bodies, where they exist, to the list of willingness to engage constructively with me and those to be consulted before an order is made other members on the issue. I certainly accept that under new section 7C to assign colleges. his amendments 95 and 96 are a genuine attempt Amendment 43 corrects a cross-reference to the to draw a line under the matter. I will listen closely relevant order-making power. to what he has to say before I decide whether to press amendment 44. In the meantime, I thank I move amendment 40. him for the approach that he has taken—on this Amendment 40 agreed to. aspect of the bill, at least. Amendments 41 to 43 moved—[Michael I move amendment 44. Russell]—and agreed to. Michael Russell: Highland members, of whom I am one—I declare that interest—are aware of the After section 9 correspondence on the matter, which has been

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going on for some time, and a number of Highland Amendment 44, by agreement, withdrawn. members have met colleges in their area that are part of UHI to discuss it. Section 10—Regional strategic bodies: functions Amendment 95 seeks to give ministers a power to impose terms and conditions to require regional Amendments 45 to 48 moved—[Michael strategic bodies to comply with specified matters Russell]—and agreed to. before they receive funding from the funding Amendment 49 moved—[Marco Biagi]—and council. It specifically addresses the issue that is agreed to. raised in the UHI circumstances and will provide parity with the power that is already in the bill in Amendments 50 and 51 moved—[Michael relation to the provision of funding to institutions. Russell]—and agreed to. Amendment 96 is a technical amendment that Amendment 52 moved—[Marco Biagi]—and links to amendment 95. It will have the effect of agreed to. restricting the power so that it can be used only to set terms and conditions that relate to regional Amendment 106 moved—[Neil Bibby]. strategic bodies as a group, as opposed to terms The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, and conditions that relate to any particular one. that amendment 106 be agreed to. Are we I support the objectives of Liam McArthur’s agreed? amendment 44, but after a great deal of Members: No. consultation, I consider that amendment 93 and the linked amendments—we will discuss The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a amendment 93 when we come to the final group— division. are a more effective and lasting mechanism to For achieve those objectives. Although amendment 44 Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) is well intentioned and I can understand where it Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) comes from, it would not give the funding council Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) any additional powers that it does not already Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) have. Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Amendment 93 will regularise the situation and Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) is supported by Colleges Scotland. Whatever we Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) do—I hope that amendment 93 is the right way to Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) proceed—will provide support and succour to the Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Highland colleges and will give them a degree of Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) reassurance on the matter, which is what they Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) want. As far as I am aware, what we propose has Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) the support of every Highland member in the Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) chamber. I ask Mr McArthur to withdraw Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) amendment 44, as the amendments that I have Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) lodged will take care of the matter, which is Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) something that we all support. Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Liz Smith: I add our support, in principle, for the Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) amendments in this group. Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) UHI is a unique institution, and we have been Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) very conscious of the concerns that the individual Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) colleges have raised. I am grateful to the cabinet McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) secretary and the other members who have McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) worked hard to try to resolve the issue. Given that McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) UHI is such a unique institution, it is perhaps not McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) surprising that that has been difficult, but I think McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) that we are making progress. Therefore, we are Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) happy to support the Government’s amendments. Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Liam McArthur: Given the cabinet secretary’s Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) remarks, I think that we will maintain a watching Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) brief on this issue but we have probably done as Against much as we can through amendment 93, which I Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) hope will be agreed to later. On that basis, I intend Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) to withdraw amendment 44. Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)

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Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) the division is: For 37, Against 78, Abstentions 0. Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Amendment 106 disagreed to. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Amendment 107 moved—[Neil Bibby]. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) that amendment 107 be agreed to. Are we Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) agreed? Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Members: No. Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) division. Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) For FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Against Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)

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Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) the division is: For 36, Against 77, Abstentions 0. Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Amendment 107 disagreed to. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Amendment 108 moved—[Neil Bibby]. shire) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) that amendment 108 be agreed to. Are we Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) agreed? Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Members: No. Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) division. Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) For FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Against Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)

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Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, shire) (SNP) that amendment 109 be agreed to. Are we Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) agreed? Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Members: No. Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) division. Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) For Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Against Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) the division is: For 37, Against 77, Abstentions 0. Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Amendment 108 disagreed to. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Amendment 109 moved—[Neil Bibby]. Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)

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Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) For Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) shire) (SNP) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Lauderdale) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) the division is: For 37, Against 76, Abstentions 0. Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Amendment 109 disagreed to. Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Amendment 53 moved—[Michael Russell]. Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) that amendment 53 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Members: No. Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) division. McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)

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McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) balancing the autonomy of the institutions with the McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) ability of a regional body to pursue its regional McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) plans. (SNP) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) I agree with what Mr Findlay seeks to achieve in McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) amendments 55, 56 and 59, and amendment 110, McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) in my name, achieves those things. There is no McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) need to make specific provision for transfers McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) outwith a region. The bodies involved have other McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) powers to effect such transfers, so I am happy to Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) remove the provisions from the bill that deal with Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) such transfers. The Transfer of Undertakings Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 will Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) apply to all transfers of staff made under new Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) section 23L of the 2005 act as well as to transfers Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) of staff from a regional strategic body to one of its Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) assigned colleges. I know that unions wanted Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) TUPE in the bill, and I have delivered on that. Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) 16:30 Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Amendment 54 makes it clear that directions Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) under new section 23K cannot be used to direct Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) colleges to transfer staff. I know that some, Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) including the Educational Institute of Scotland, Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) support the balance that we have struck in the bill (SNP) on the question of consent, but I know that the Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) sector still has concerns, which are reflected in White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) amendments 57 and 58, in the name of Liz Smith. Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) I want to consult more widely on the issue and Against take the view of organisations that we cannot yet Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) consult, which are the new regional boards. I Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) therefore propose order-making powers that will Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) enable changes to be made in the future; ministers Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) will be under a statutory obligation to consult Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) widely before using such powers and the order will Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) be subject to the affirmative procedure so that McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) there will be full parliamentary scrutiny, as Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) provided for in amendment 120. I think that the Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) amendments that I propose will meet the Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) objections that are dealt with in the amendments Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) from Mr Findlay and Liz Smith. I hope that that will The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of be recognised in the decisions on whether to the division is: For 101, Against 12, Abstentions 0. move the amendments. Amendment 53 agreed to. I moved amendment 54. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 9 is on Neil Findlay: Amendments 55 and 56 relate to regional strategic boards: staff transfers etc. the ability of colleges to transfer staff between Amendment 54, in the name of the cabinet regions. We believe that, in many cases, the secretary, is grouped with amendments 110, 55 to distances involved mean that transfers could be 59 and 120. I point out that, if amendment 110 is problematic, as the commuting distances for those agreed to, I will not call amendments 55 to 59 affected will fall outside what is reasonable. I because of pre-emption. understand that there is established employment law on the issue so, although the Government of Michael Russell: As I explained at stage 2, the course has the right to insert a section on it into basic policy intention behind the staff transfer the bill, the provision will be difficult to apply in provisions in the bill is twofold. The provisions practice. We therefore think that a straight deletion assist in the sharing of services and ensure that, in is best. multicollege regions, the regional strategic body has the power to give effect to its duty to plan for At stage 2, the cabinet secretary said that it delivering coherent provision in the region. The might be beneficial for neighbouring regions to be judgment to be made in multicollege regions is in able to transfer to one another—for example,

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when sharing services. Amendment 110 from the McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Government attempts to clarify that and how, in McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) such a scenario, consultation would be required McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) with colleges, trade union representatives, Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) students and so on, with a view to getting an Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) agreement to the proposed transfer. Although that Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) is a little progress, we still believe that our Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) amendment is more appropriate. Amendment 59 Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) recognises that TUPE applies to the transfer of Against staff and would write that into the bill. Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Liz Smith: I thank the cabinet secretary for the Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) comment regarding the affirmative procedure, Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) because I think that that kind of accountability is Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) essential. As the cabinet secretary said in his Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) remarks, there is concern within the sector that Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) some aspects of the transfer issue are not entirely Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) straightforward or transparent. I am willing to listen Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) on the basis that the minister suggested, so I will Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) not move amendments 57 and 58. Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on the Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) cabinet secretary to wind up. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Michael Russell: I have nothing to add. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Amendment 54 agreed to. shire) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Amendment 110 moved—[Michael Russell]— Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) and agreed to. Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Section 11—Regional boards: constitution Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Amendment 60 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) that amendment 60 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Members: No. Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and division. Lauderdale) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) For Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)

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Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Against Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) shire) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) the division is: For 35, Against 78, Abstentions 0. Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Amendment 60 disagreed to. Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Amendment 61 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) that amendment 61 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Members: No. Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Lauderdale) (SNP) division. Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) For Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)

21641 26 JUNE 2013 21642

Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Against the division is: For 35, Against 79, Abstentions 0. Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 61 disagreed to. Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Amendment 62 moved—[Michael Russell]—and Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) agreed to. Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Amendment 63 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) that amendment 63 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Members: No. Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) division. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) For Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)

21643 26 JUNE 2013 21644

Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of the division is: For 53, Against 61, Abstentions 0. Against Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Amendment 63 disagreed to. Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 64 moved—[Michael Russell]—and Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) agreed to. Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Amendment 112 moved—[Neil Bibby]. Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) that amendment 112 be agreed to. Are we Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) agreed? Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Members: No. Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) division. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) For Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)

21645 26 JUNE 2013 21646

White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) the division is: For 53, Against, 59, Abstentions 0. Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Amendment 112 disagreed to. Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Amendments 65 to 70 moved—[Michael Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Russell]. Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Does any Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) member object to a single question being put on Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) amendments 65 to 70? (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Members: Yes. White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) that amendment 65 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Against Members: No. Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) division. Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) For Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)

21647 26 JUNE 2013 21648

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) the division is: For 60, Against 53, Abstentions 0. Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Amendment 65 agreed to. (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) that amendment 66 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Members: No. Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) division. Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) For Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) the division is: For 61, Against 53, Abstentions 0. Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Amendment 66 agreed to. Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Amendments 67 and 68 agreed to. Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) that amendment 69 be agreed to. Are we agreed?

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Members: No. McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) division. McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) For McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Against Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) shire) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Lauderdale) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) the division is: For 92, Against 22, Abstentions 0. MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Amendment 69 agreed to. Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) that amendment 70 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Members: No. Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) division. Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) For McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)

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Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) the division is: For 61, Against 53, Abstentions 0. Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Amendment 70 agreed to. Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Group 10 is on Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) collective bargaining. Amendment 1, in the name Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) of Neil Findlay, is grouped with amendments 79 Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) and 2. Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Neil Findlay: We have heard for some time Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) from the cabinet secretary that he is committed to (SNP) collective bargaining in the college sector and that Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) he desperately wants it to be reintroduced but, White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) unfortunately, there is no mention of it in the bill. With that in mind, we moved amendments on the Against issue at stage 2 and we again seek to introduce Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) them into the bill today. Amendments 1 and 2 aim Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) to put references to collective bargaining in the bill Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) and ensure that the Scottish Government lives up Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) to and fulfils previous commitments. Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Let us make it absolutely clear that Scottish Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Labour has successfully forced the issue on to the Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) agenda. We have successfully brought the issue

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into the bill but, rather than accepting our sensible I said—[Interruption.] Yes, everybody makes amendments, the cabinet secretary acts in the mistakes—and members are about to hear about same manner in which he has acted throughout another one from Mr Findlay. the passage of the bill, by taking our proposals, I said to Mr Findlay, “Come back and have a creating his own amendment and introducing it at conversation with me about how we put this in the this very late stage in an attempt to claim the bill.” We had our second meeting. The first credit. It is the same cynical approach that he has meeting was nine minutes long; the second was taken to so many sections of the bill. seven minutes long. At the second meeting, Mr We will, of course, support amendment 79, and I Findlay again wanted only to see the amendments hope that the cabinet secretary will, in his usual that we were lodging. We shared those gracious manner, recognise the work— amendments, and amendment 79, which is before [Interruption.] I hope that he will recognise the us now, achieves the aim and objective in work that we have put in on this important issue question. However, Mr Findlay had already lodged and support amendments 1 and 2. the same two amendments. Was he going to withdraw them? No, he was not. What we have I move amendment 1. ended up with here is what we have always seen from Mr Findlay: he is the master of grandstanding 16:45 on this. Michael Russell: I am absolutely committed to Members: Oh! a system of national bargaining for terms and conditions in colleges. I raised the issue well Michael Russell: Yes. before Mr Findlay was in the chamber, and I have Now, I am quite—[Interruption.] Gosh! It sounds done the—[Interruption.] Members should wait a as if a sea lion has got in here. moment, Presiding Officer. I hope that they will find it interesting to hear from me about the I am quite happy to share the credit for bringing discussions that I have had with Mr Findlay on the forward the issue with any member in the chamber matter. I now feel quite at liberty to divulge that who wants to share it, because I hope that all information, given that we have just heard what I members will accept that we should not back a must say was a misrepresentation of the situation. balkanisation of pay and conditions in the college sector. It would have been of great credit to the I have backed such a system for some Parliament if, instead of what we have heard from considerable time. I have worked with the regional Mr Findlay, we had all said, “Yes, this is a good leads and the trade unions, and we now have a thing to do—let’s do it.” What we have heard from framework in place. Mr Findlay has defined exactly his approach to the Amendments 1 and 2 are exactly the same bill, which is regrettable. However, I am pleased amendments that were lodged at stage 2. Before that, despite those rather wasted 16 minutes of my stage 2, I asked to meet the Opposition life talking to him about it, we now have an spokespeople from all the parties. Mr Findlay amendment that we can agree on. came to that meeting, and it was not lengthy, but I The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Clare asked him twice, “Are there any amendments that Adamson to speak briefly, as we are now quite you would like to lodge? Is there anything that I tight for time. can do to try to bridge the gaps that exist?” The matter that we are now discussing was never Clare Adamson: I speak in support of mentioned by Mr Findlay—not once. amendment 79, which, as the cabinet secretary has said, concerns a very important matter for the Members: Oh! further education system. We must understand Michael Russell: There we are. He may just that the reason why we have lost collective have been forgetful at that stage. bargaining in the system is the Tory-designed incorporation of the colleges. I fully support the When the amendments were lodged at stage 2, cabinet secretary in his aim of addressing that I explained to Mr Findlay very positively that I problem. supported what we were both trying to do, and that I would be happy to work with him to lodge Liam McArthur: Amendment 79, which will amendments that would actually work, as opposed establish collective bargaining frameworks for to amendments 1 and 2, which would not work. In college staff, has not come entirely out of left field, fact, if someone wanted national pay bargaining, but that only raises the question why Mr Russell those are the amendments that they would not has sought to wait until stage 3 before showing his lodge, but that is okay: everybody makes hand. I am sure that the committee as a whole mistakes. would have welcomed the opportunity to take evidence on these provisions at stage 1, if nothing else to get a clearer understanding of the

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implications for the different colleges throughout Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) the country and their staff. Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) I appreciate that the intention is to set up a Against national advisory committee that will make Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) recommendations, but I assume that the Scottish Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Government has done some modelling. On that Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) basis, it would be helpful—even at this late Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) stage—to get some idea of what this will mean for Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) the college sector as a whole and across the Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) regions. Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Neil Findlay: I intend to press my amendments. Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) If this was such a high principle of the cabinet Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) secretary, he would have put it into the bill. He put Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) nothing into the bill. He relied on us to bring the Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) idea forward, such are his high principles. We Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) introduced it at stage 2, and he knows that. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- The cabinet secretary will know all about shire) (SNP) misleading Parliament, as we all know; we heard Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) that last year. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Finally, the reason why the meetings were so Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) short is that I felt very uncomfortable at the large Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) portrait of the cabinet secretary staring at me in Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) the room. Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed? FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Members: No. Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and division. Lauderdale) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) For Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)

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Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) colleges the power to borrow money to help them Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) to exercise their functions by allowing the regional Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) board to grant such security and indemnity as it Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) sees fit. Amendment 72 would remove the Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) provisions that forbid the actions that I have just Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) outlined. Amendments 81 to 83 would give all Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) other college boards the same powers by Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) amending the 1992 act. Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) I move amendment 71. Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Liam McArthur: We turn to an issue of where Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) power and responsibility should sit between The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of colleges on the one hand and ministers on the the division is: For 35, Against 78, Abstentions 0. other. In many senses, that goes to the heart of the difficulties that I have with the bill, Amendment 1 disagreed to. notwithstanding the progress that has been made The Deputy Presiding Officer: Moving swiftly in a number of areas since stage 2. This is not just on, we come to group 11, which is on colleges and a principled objection to the meddling approach regional boards: procedure and powers. that the minister is pursuing; it is borne of Amendment 71, in the name of Liz Smith, is legitimate concerns about the consequences for grouped with amendments 72 and 81 to 83. our colleges. Liz Smith: There has been a great deal of As the ONS has consistently made clear since discussion of late, especially in the college sector, 2010, the risk is that our colleges are reclassified about the possible ramifications of the decision by as public bodies, given the level of ministerial the UK Office for National Statistics to reclassify control and intervention. The implications of that institutions as public bodies. Under the status quo, for college reserves, income and borrowing colleges are private bodies and can therefore keep powers are serious. Moreover, it is difficult to see their private income, which is approximately £200 what, if any, incentive there would be for our million, as reserves or as investment potential. colleges to continue tendering for contracts. The reclassification means that such private However, it appears that, since being warned of funding would be treated as public money, which that threat back in 2010, Mr Russell has done little could have major implications for how colleges to avert the danger; he has been content to work, including the independence test for their introduce a bill that almost certainly makes the charitable status and how they work with other situation more clear cut in terms of ONS institutions such as businesses—John Henderson definitions. In the absence of any obvious action of Colleges Scotland raised that point earlier in the by the cabinet secretary, Liz Smith’s amendments week. in the group at least attempt to pick up on the Reclassification would further extend the threat. Government’s ability to control colleges, Removing the need for ministerial approval for particularly in terms of their borrowing powers. the disposal of land and property would allow a That would be detrimental to the creative and degree more discretion for colleges and their innovative practices of colleges and their ability to boards while providing a little more of the arm’s- be fully competitive. Those are the essential length relationship that the ONS insists is required features of the college sector, which allow it to to avoid reclassification. On that basis, I rank alongside rather than be the so-called inferior encourage the Government to support the relative of universities. amendments, though I do so more in hope than in Likewise, there is further concern that expectation. reclassification might impact on some of the Michael Russell: As I said at education mergers that are in progress, since some of them questions earlier, there is a way in which Mr will rely on the release of reserves that have been McArthur and Liz Smith could help to influence the built up over several years and might also depend matter immediately. They should speak to their on colleges’ ability to generate additional colleagues in Westminster and call off the dogs commercial income. In turn, that has clear from the UK Treasury, which is involved in an implications for the competitive advantage of unwelcome set of actions of reclassification. Scotland’s colleges. There is huge inconsistency in the UK South of the border, the Government has Government’s approach. The UK Government is relaxed controls on governance and borrowing, backing actions south of the border that include but we in Scotland seem to be moving in the the imposition of a sort of commissar for further opposite direction. Amendment 71 would give education who would intervene in what are called

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failing colleges. [Interruption.] Labour no doubt when the situation in Scotland is one of reversing supports that because it supports almost the autonomy of colleges. The colleges are very everything that the Tories and Liberals do. A clear about the danger of the situation. In fact, a moment’s rationality would make Labour think substantial amount of money comes from private that, if that is direct intervention in the college funding. There are extraordinary dangers in sector south of the border, it is a type of completely reclassifying colleges as public bodies. intervention that should demand reclassification of That is why I will press my amendments. colleges in England similar to the reclassification that we and, I have to say, Wales are suffering. 17:00 We will not allow education policy to be driven in The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, that way from outside Scotland, either by that amendment 71 be agreed to. Are we agreed? accounting practice or by hostility from the UK Government, so we are taking a number of actions Members: No. to assist colleges. I would like to ensure that the The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a bill did the same, but it is impossible to do that, division. because the classification issue is reserved to Westminster. Liz Smith’s amendments would not For nullify the ONS’s classification of colleges or Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) mitigate the effects. I would like to think that it was Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) possible to do that, but it is not possible. Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Unfortunately, Liz Smith is wrong or misled on the Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) matter. Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Amendments 71, 72 and 81 to 83 would mean Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) that regional boards and incorporated college Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) boards could borrow money without legal Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) constraint—just think about that. They could also Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) grant securities and give guarantees or Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) indemnities as they saw fit. No matter what Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) members think of them, regional boards and Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) incorporated college boards are public bodies. Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Given the percentage of public funding that Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) colleges receive, controls are not only appropriate Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) but essential. College assets have been built up Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) largely as a result of public investment. Colleges Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) are public assets. It would be wholly inappropriate Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) to have colleges’ finances managed in the Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) proposed way. As the amendments would not Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) nullify the ONS classification, they are ineffective Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) and irresponsible. Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Other aspects of the nature of the relationship Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) between colleges and the Government in Scotland Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) mean that reclassification would continue to apply. Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) The relationship between the Government and McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) colleges is founded on strong partnerships. It has McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) associated governance arrangements, which we McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) are strengthening in the bill in order to improve McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) democratic accountability. We should remember McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) that that was a key element of the thinking behind McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) the bill. Democratic accountability was vastly McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) diminished by what took place in 1992 and 1993. McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) We cannot work our way around ONS Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) reclassification in the proposed way. In my view, Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) ONS reclassification is politically driven and we Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) need to recognise that and do as much practically Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) on the ground as we can. That is what we will try Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) to do. The amendments would not do that and Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) would lead us down some very dangerous paths. Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Liz Smith: It is extraordinary that the cabinet Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) secretary says that we are being irresponsible,

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Against The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) the division is: For 51, Against 61, Abstentions 2. Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Amendment 71 disagreed to. Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 72 moved—[Liz Smith]. Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) that amendment 72 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Members: No. Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) division. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) For Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Abstentions Against Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)

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Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Section 12—Regional boards: Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) mismanagement Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Amendment 73 moved—[Liz Smith]. Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) that amendment 73 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Members: No. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a shire) (SNP) division. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) For Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Lauderdale) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Abstentions Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Against the division is: For 51, Against 61, Abstentions 2. Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 72 disagreed to. Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)

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Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) division. Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) For Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Against The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) the division is: For 51, Against 60, Abstentions 0. Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Amendment 73 disagreed to. Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Amendment 74 moved—[Liz Smith]. Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) that amendment 74 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Members: No. Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)

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Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- division. shire) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) For Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Against Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) the division is: For 53, Against 61, Abstentions 0. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Amendment 74 disagreed to. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Amendment 75 moved—[Liz Smith]—and shire) (SNP) agreed to. Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Section 13A—Further education institutions: Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) good governance Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Amendment 76 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) that amendment 76 be agreed to. Are we agreed? FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Members: No. Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and

21669 26 JUNE 2013 21670

Lauderdale) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Against Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) the division is: For 35, Against 75, Abstentions 0. Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Amendment 76 disagreed to. Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- After section 13A shire) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Amendment 4 moved—[Jenny Marra]. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Members: No. Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) division. Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) For FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)

21671 26 JUNE 2013 21672

Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) shire) (SNP) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Lauderdale) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) the division is: For 40, Against 73, Abstentions 0. Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Amendment 4 disagreed to. MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Amendments 77 and 78 moved—[Marco MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Biagi]—and agreed to. Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) After section 14 MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Amendment 79 moved—[Michael Russell]. Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) that amendment 79 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Members: No. McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) division. McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) For McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)

21673 26 JUNE 2013 21674

McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Against McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Against The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) the division is: For 101, Against 12, Abstentions 0. Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Amendment 79 agreed to. Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 80 moved—[Clare Adamson]—and Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) agreed to. Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Schedule—Modification of enactments Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Amendment 81 moved—[Liz Smith]. Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) that amendment 81 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Members: No. shire) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) division. Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) For Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Lauderdale) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)

21675 26 JUNE 2013 21676

MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Subordinate Legislation Committee. It provides MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) additional parliamentary scrutiny. MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Amendment 92 ensures that the Education Act MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) 1994 continues to apply to incorporated colleges. Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) The principal effect of amendment 93 is to add Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) two new criteria to the fundable body list. First, it McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) ensures that colleges and universities seek to McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) ensure that there is a students association. That is (SNP) a big step forward for colleges and I am glad that it McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) is happening. Given the way in which the bill has McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) been framed, the requirement will also apply to McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) assigned colleges and learning providers that are Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) directly funded by the funding council. Under the Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) reform process, benefit for all learners should be Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) at the heart of everything that we do. Autonomous, Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) sustainable and appropriately funded student Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) associations will help us to achieve that. Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) The second criteria in relation to fundable Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) bodies addresses the constitutional arrangements Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) for the type of regional strategic body that is also a Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) university or college that is eligible for funding. Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Many individuals and groups have expressed Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) serious concerns about safeguarding the nature of White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) the UHI’s delivery of FE arrangements in its Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) region. I pay tribute to Dr Michael Foxley and his Abstentions working group, which made a series of important Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) recommendations in that regard. Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) As I confirmed to Mr MacArthur, amendment 93 The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of adds to the fundable body criteria for certain the division is: For 50, Against 60, Abstentions 2. learning providers that are eligible to receive funding from the funding council. In practical Amendment 81 disagreed to. terms, it means that the funding council will need Amendments 82 and 83 not moved. to be satisfied that the UHI is delivering the arrangements in the manner agreed to by the UHI The Deputy Presiding Officer: We move to working group and articulated in its report. The group 12. As we have exceeded the agreed time UHI is an important issue for most people and I limit, under rule 9.8.4A, I consider it necessary to hope that that will be welcomed by the Parliament. allow the debate on group 12 to continue beyond the limit to allow those with a right to speak on the Amendment 94 amends section 9(4) of the amendments in the group to do so. The cabinet Further and Higher Education (Scotland) Act 2005. secretary may, of course, accept interventions if It is technical in nature and I will not go into it any he is prepared to do so. further. Group 12 comprises minor and consequential Amendment 98 requires the funding council to amendments. Amendment 84, in the name of the inform regional colleges and regional strategic cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments bodies of the socioeconomic groups, skills needs 92, 93, 116 to 118, 94 and 98. and economic, social and cultural issues that it has identified in Scotland that are relevant to them Michael Russell: I would like to emulate Liz in discharging their duties. Smith and make people feel better, so I will be brief. Amendments 116 to 118 clarify ministers’ powers in new section 7D of the 2005 act as they Amendment 84 changes the procedure in extend to incorporated colleges. relation to an existing order-making power in section 12 of the Further and Higher Education I move amendment 84. (Scotland) Act 1992 that allows the powers of Amendment 84 agreed to. college boards of management to be modified. The change from the negative procedure to the Amendments 85 to 88 moved—[Michael affirmative procedure provides consistency with Russell]. the changes that were made at stage 2 in response to concerns that were raised by the

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The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) that amendments 85 to 88 be agreed to. Are we Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) agreed? McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Alex Fergusson (Galloway and West McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Dumfries) (Con): On a point of order, Presiding (SNP) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Officer. Should the Parliament not be asked McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) whether it agrees that a single question be put on McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) the amendments? Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Yes, you are Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) absolutely right. Does any member object to a Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) single question being put on amendments 85 to Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) 88? Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Members: Yes. Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: We will Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) therefore take the amendments individually. Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) The question is, that amendment 85 be agreed (SNP) to. Are we agreed? Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Members: No. Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Against division. Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) For Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) Abstentions Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)

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McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Against The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) the division is: For 63, Against 17, Abstentions 32. Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Amendment 85 agreed to. Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Amendments 86 to 88 agreed to. Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Amendment 115 moved—[Neil Bibby]. Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) that amendment 115 be agreed to. Are we Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) agreed? Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Members: No. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- division. shire) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) For Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Lauderdale) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)

21681 26 JUNE 2013 21682

The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) the division is: For 52, Against 60, Abstentions 0. Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Amendment 115 disagreed to. Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Amendments 89 to 91 moved—[Michael Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Russell]. Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, (SNP) that amendment 89 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Members: No. Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Against division. Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) For Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Lauderdale) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of (SNP) the division is: For 63, Against 48, Abstentions 0. McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Amendment 89 agreed to. McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) that amendment 90 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Members: No.

21683 26 JUNE 2013 21684

The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Against division. Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) For Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) (SNP) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) the division is: For 62, Against 49, Abstentions 0. McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Amendment 90 agreed to. Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) that amendment 91 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Members: No. Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) division. Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) For Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)

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Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) shire) (SNP) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Lauderdale) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of (SNP) the division is: For 63, Against 48, Abstentions 0. McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Amendment 91 agreed to. McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Amendment 2 moved—[Neil Findlay]. Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) that amendment 2 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Members: No. Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) division. Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) For Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) (SNP) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Against Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)

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Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Against Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) the division is: For 32, Against 79, Abstentions 0. Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Amendment 2 disagreed to. Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- Amendments 92, 93, 116 to 118, 94 to 98, 119, shire) (SNP) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) 120 and 99 moved—[Michael Russell]. Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: Does any Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) member object to a single question being put on Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) the amendments? Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Members: Yes. Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: We will go Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) through the amendments individually. Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Amendments 92, 93, 116 to 118, 94 to 98, 119 Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) and 120 agreed to. Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question is, Lauderdale) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) that amendment 99 be agreed to. Are we agreed? Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Members: No. Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) division. Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) For Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) shire) (SNP)

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Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of (SNP) the division is: For 60, Against 49, Abstentions 0. McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Amendment 99 agreed to. McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: That ends Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) consideration of amendments. Thank you all. Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)

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Post-16 Education (Scotland) boards, and we listened when staff and students told us that they should be consulted on Bill: Stage 3 development of the widening access agreements.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott): We have accepted amendments from across The next item of business is a debate on motion the chamber. We have listened because we are a S4M-07108, in the name of Michael Russell, on Government that forms its policies—whenever we the Post-16 Education (Scotland) Bill. can—on the basis of consensus and agreement on what will provide the best outcome, which on this occasion is the best outcome for learners in 17:25 Scotland. We listened because we understand The Cabinet Secretary for Education and where the knowledge and expertise on Scottish Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): Today is a education lies. It lies in the sector, in the staff and good day for learners in Scotland: we have given the students who have made our post-16 final consideration to a bill that shows what can be education system a good system that can be achieved when the Government, the Parliament better. and stakeholders work together for the benefit of The fruits of our partnership are clear in the Scotland. amended bill, which will be voted on shortly. It I said during the stage 1 debate that my hope tackles head on the problem of was that the final iteration of the bill would be a underrepresentation of people from our deprived product of partnership. I am delighted to say that communities who, for too many generations, have that is exactly what it has turned out to be. lacked the opportunities but not the talent or the ambition to succeed. I thank the members of the Education and Culture Committee for their thorough consideration The Victorian Liberal politician and rector of the of the bill. In particular, I thank Stewart Maxwell for University of Aberdeen, Mounstuart Grant Duff, his professional and fair-minded approach in once said: chairing its proceedings. I thank the Subordinate “There is no investment of national energy that so Legislation Committee and the Finance Committee quickly brings fame to a nation, as energy invested in for their valuable contributions to scrutiny of the acquiring knowledge.” bill, and I thank my officials and the officials of the However, for decades—perhaps even for many organisations that have worked closely with centuries—widening access to higher education us to improve the bill at each stage. has been something that we aspire to; something The depth and quality of positive engagement that we would like to achieve some day. That day and constructive debate between the Government is dawning because the bill establishes widening and stakeholders has been excellent. That has access as one of the core matters to which the resulted in a stronger bill that is supported by staff Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding and students, and by colleges and universities. Council must have regard in exercising its functions. It enshrines widening access It is a bill that has scope and ambition; it was agreements in primary legislation and it enables never going to be possible for everyone to agree ministers to drive widening access forward by on everything. Stakeholders have argued identifying—in consultation—the priority groups on passionately and persuasively—but usually which the efforts of institutions must focus. pragmatically—for the amendments that they believed would improve the bill. Despite some The bill also makes substantial improvements to distractions, this has been what I would call a the governance of both the college and university mature and enlightened approach to developing sectors, delivering appropriate levels of assurance legislation, and I commend all those who have for the substantial investment that the state makes contributed to it. of about £1.6 billion every year. There have been important changes to the bill, In the college sector, the bill will ensure that which have improved what I believe was already a statutory regional chairs are appointed through the good bill. The amendments are indicative of this public appointments process, which ends the reign Government’s determination to listen, its of self-appointed and, sometimes, self- commitment to working in partnership and its perpetuating boards, thereby dramatically focus on producing high-quality legislation. We improving governance and accountability. It also listened when the university sector told us that the makes provision for the governing bodies of term “management” in the governance provisions colleges and universities to have explicit regard to represented an unintentional threat—it came from equalities duties in appointing new governors, another piece of legislation—to institutional which makes clear the Government’s desire that autonomy. We listened when the college sector the concern about lack of diversity on governing told us that assigned colleges needed larger bodies be addressed. We could do more with the

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full powers of a normal Parliament—and that will provision through the emergence of innovative come. centres of excellence in specific curriculum areas. Underpinning all that are the outcome The bill will pave the way for the re-introduction agreements, which for the first time are making of national pay bargaining in the college sector, crystal clear the relationship between public which is an important step towards ending what I funding and what institutions are expected to have called the balkanisation of pay and deliver. conditions that was set in train by Michael Forsyth in the early 1990s. It protects the rest of the United The reform process also applies to the Kingdom’s students from ever having to pay more university sector. Our universities are already for a Scottish education than they can access in among the best in the world, so there is no need fee support from their own Administrations. They for a revolution, but improvement is always would have been better served had that possible. The bill will widen access and increase monetisation of higher education never started accountability. The outcome agreements will south of the border. provide absolute clarity on the arrangement that exists between the state and the universities, The bill contains innovative provisions that will which can only help both sides. allow Skills Development Scotland to share and receive information in more structured ways, which We have no intention of moving away from our will be critical to helping young people who are at commitment to free education, and we have risk of dropping out of education, and it removed tuition fees for about 125,000 students. establishes the legal structures that are necessary We have backed those students to succeed with for the proper operation of a regional college by far the best student support package that is system, with all the acknowledged benefits that available anywhere in the United Kingdom. In this that will deliver. It does not tinker around the academic year, we have invested a further edges or skirt round the issues. It will deliver real £10 million to create an additional 2,089 funded reform for the benefit of learners and of Scotland places. Those places are targeted at recruitment as an essential part of a wider reform programme. and retention of students from Scotland’s most deprived communities. They will increase It is important to reflect on the remarkable articulation from college to university and boost progress that has been made since the publication skills for growth. Additional places are being of “Putting Learners at the Centre” in September provided in key sectors that are likely to have the 2011—just 21 months ago. That paper set out our greatest impact. ambitious plans to reform the college sector, to maximise its potential and to ensure that it delivers Our post-16 reforms will ensure that Scotland is the best possible outcomes for learners and truly a nation where there is opportunity for all. I makes the best possible contribution to the urge members across the chamber to put aside Scottish economy. At the heart of the paper lay the the differences that have divided us during the belief that colleges of scale, distinction and bill’s consideration and to consider the bill on its influence—educational powerhouses that could merits and on the basis of the benefits that it will transform learning opportunities for learners in deliver for people all over Scotland. their regions—are the best way to remove There are no political or practical reasons for unnecessary competition and wasteful duplication, opposing the bill. It will extend access to our and thereby to allow a stronger focus on delivering poorest communities. To oppose the bill would be better outcomes. to oppose more accountable and representative In those 21 months, college leaders have seized governance, and to oppose a return to national on the opportunities that the reform programme pay bargaining in the college sector. Worst of all, presents by setting in train an unprecedented to oppose the bill would be to oppose the efforts of programme of no less than 10 college mergers. the students, staff and institutions that have Once those structural changes are complete, we worked so hard to help create the bill in its present will reap the full benefits of reform. We look form. I urge Parliament to come together and to forward to more strategic planning of provision, unify in backing the judgment of those who know with a sharper focus on the needs of employers, Scottish education best, who are now backing the which will simultaneously improve the life chances bill. of learners and generate the skills that are I move, necessary to drive forward our economy. That the Parliament agrees that the Post-16 Education Regionalisation will maximise the impact of (Scotland) Bill be passed. colleges and will ensure that provision always leads somewhere positive, whether that be to higher learning or to employment. It will help to 17:33 create closer links between schools, colleges and Neil Findlay (Lothian) (Lab): As a member of universities, and will result in better-quality the Education and Culture Committee, I have been

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involved in scrutinising the Post-16 Education Scotland exemplified the confusion very eloquently (Scotland) Bill from the outset. I have observed its when he said about the new colleges structure: passage at close hand, as it has gone through “If it’s the Government’s wish to create a nationally each stage of the legislative process, and I have to incoherent FE structure with a myriad of different types of say that it has not been a pretty sight. colleges, governing bodies and funding mechanisms with separate regulations for each, then this Bill is the way to go I will be frank. As a relatively new member of about it.” this place, the bill is the first significant piece of proposed legislation that I have observed at all That comment was about a structure that the stages of its passage through Parliament. I cabinet secretary described as “simple”. It was so expected policy making and the legislative process simple that the sections of the bill relating to to be much, much better. I was led to believe that colleges required more than 110 amendments to the committee system was one of the Parliament’s get the bill into the state that it is in today. great strengths. Turning ideas and policies into Of course, most of those amendments came legislation and creating the laws of this land is the from the cabinet secretary himself. With every role of the committees and this chamber. As such, dozen amendments that he lodged, the case for it is right that legislation must be properly withdrawal became stronger and stronger. This is scrutinised rather than rushed, and the rationale a bill that had the cabinet secretary almost for introducing it must be made clear from the pleading with the committee to come forward with outset. On both those counts, the bill has failed amendments to bail him out—and come forward miserably. we did. We lodged amendments on college The reality is that this has been a shambolic regionalisation, on equal opportunities, on trade botch job from the beginning. During the union representation, on collective bargaining, on committee’s evidence session with the bill team, it widening access further than the government became clear that the team that was dealing with proposes, and on many other areas. What the detail of the bill was just as unsure of the bill’s happened? All 76 amendments that were lodged purpose and that detail as we were. I am not by the cabinet secretary and most of the Scottish criticising those public servants, who were doing National Party amendments were agreed to, but their jobs to the best of their ability, but am simply how many of the 48 stage 2 amendments that sympathising with their plight. were lodged by Labour were accepted? Surprise, surprise! Not one was accepted, and neither were Then we had discussions with the the vast majority of amendments from the other stakeholders—the universities, the colleges, the Opposition parties. So much for the great unifier— trade unions, the students, the National Union of so much for cabinet secretary’s commitment to Students Scotland, the local authorities and the working together to improve the bill. All the charities—almost all of whom had very serious amendments that we lodged reflected the concerns about the bill and its content. Such was concerns of third-party groups and stakeholders, the extent of our genuine concerns, which were but all were voted down and rejected and the shared with the other two Opposition parties on same thing has just happened during today’s the committee, that we called for the bill to be stage 3. withdrawn. At the time, I called the bill “a dog’s breakfast”; on reflection, I want to withdraw that This is a bad bill. Much of what is in it could charge because I now realise that that was an have been achieved without legislation. It unfair slight on the pet food industry. In any case, centralises power in the cabinet secretary’s the bill should have been withdrawn and brought hands— back in a more coherent and comprehensible Chic Brodie (South Scotland) (SNP): I have state. That would have been the right and listened to all Neil Findlay’s comments and responsible thing to do. Our motivation was the complaints, but I think that the trade unions should production of good legislation and the avoidance understand his position on this matter. Is he of bad, but—true to fashion—the cabinet secretary actually going to vote against a bill that paves the blustered on regardless. way for national pay bargaining? If so, what has There has been some improvement during the become of the Labour Party? bill’s progress through the parliamentary system, Neil Findlay: If we end up not voting for the bill, although I have to say that that would not have that does not mean that we are against everything been difficult. Had the cabinet secretary filled 42 in it. Mr Brodie’s argument is nonsensical. We pages with randomly selected words from the have argued our case constructively throughout dictionary, we could have amended them into a the process, and the cabinet secretary has more coherent piece of legislation with fewer rejected it time and again. I will take no lectures amendments than we have witnessed to date. Let from Chic Brodie or anyone else on this matter. us be honest—it could not have been any worse. David Belsey of the Educational Institute of

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As I have said, it is a bad bill. Much of what is in amount of evidence, we increasingly came to the it could have been achieved without legislation. It view that the bill was both unnecessary and open centralises power, compromises autonomy and to all kinds of unintended consequences that could accountability, confuses college governance, has be detrimental to both sectors. limited ambition with regard to widening access Apart from the presentational problems that and fails to challenge gender bias in our higher created the need for unnecessarily complex education governance. deliberations at stage 2, major policy issues are The bill was hurried and badly thought out. It involved. I want to look at those issues in the sought to cover the tracks of a disastrous colleges context of the increasingly competitive policy that was based on cuts to courses, jobs and international situation for our universities and the places and was not aimed at improving need for an increasingly diverse and competitive opportunities for our young people. It is a college sector that is best able to serve the needs fundamentally flawed bill with the stamp of the of local economies. cabinet secretary all over it. The good governance that exists is not in doubt; I do not believe that it ever was. If there had been 17:40 compelling evidence that there were serious Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): I do examples of bad governance and that they were not doubt for a minute that this is an important harming education and holding back our time in further and higher education—particularly institutions, a case might have been made for given the significant challenges that our colleges legislation. The policy memorandum did not and universities face—or that the Scottish explain any problems, and Professor von Government has a duty to consider whether Prondzynski was at pains to say that he thought Government has a legislative role to play in that the existing structures were “largely assisting them with meeting those challenges. excellent”. That rather begged the question why the Scottish Government was so intent on such an That said, the scope of the bill should have been unnecessary overhaul. clear. The Scottish Government’s intentions, the reasons behind the bill and—more important—the I fully respect the views of NUS Scotland and evidence for why it was necessary should have the University and College Union, and I looked been clear. Parliamentarians should have been carefully at the claims that they made, many of left in no doubt at all about what the bill was which were in the context of social justice, but I designed to do, and there ought to have been a could find little in their arguments that suggested very clear signal from colleges and universities that the operations of our colleges and universities that they were receptive to the proposed changes. were, in fact, damaging education. There ought also to have been a very clear The focus on widening access should not be in message that the Scottish Government, the our colleges and universities, although they are colleges and universities and the Scottish Further important; the fundamental focus should be in our and Higher Education Funding Council were schools, because if we were doing things a little bit largely in agreement that the bill was capable of better in them, we would not need to have any delivering the policies that will best deliver kind of positive discrimination in favour of any excellence in our institutions, maintain and groups of students. increase their international reputation, and On autonomy in the sector, we should look respond to the economic and social needs of local around the world—it does not really matter where. economies. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and From day 1, none of that has been clear. Development, the World Bank and the Shanghai Despite the Scottish Government’s protestations university tables make it plain that success is that new legislation is essential, many people in greatest in the nations in which Governments are the sector did not share that view; indeed, colleges less rather than more involved. In Finland in 2010, and universities struggled to see the powerful the state was removed from universities because it evidence that would prove that case. What was it was stifling autonomy and holding back research that they were not doing properly in respect of and development, innovation and knowledge their current structures, that could not be achieved exchange. by outcome agreements or, fundamentally, that To sum up—I will return to this issue at the end was holding back education? of the debate—I cannot see compelling evidence I repeat what I said at stage 1. The Scottish that makes the bill necessary. I ask the Conservatives had some sympathy with the Government to come back yet again to explain principles of the bill, especially the desire to widen why we should have to go through radical reform access, but as time passed and after lengthy and when that compelling evidence is not visible. tortuous committee examinations of a large

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The Deputy Presiding Officer: Thank you very The stark statistics of the past decade speak for much. Before we move to the open debate, themselves—usually through the Scottish index of because of the number of members who wish to multiple deprivation. I have been as much of a take part in the debate, I invite the Minister for critic of the SIMD as anyone else; I do not think Parliamentary Business, on behalf of the that it represents parts of my constituency Parliamentary Bureau, to move, under rule 11.2.4, adequately, and I believe that it is far too blunt a a motion to move decision time tonight to 6.25 pm. tool. However, I criticise the SIMD as someone who wishes to see another yardstick for measuring Motion moved, socioeconomic disadvantage rather than That, under Rule 11.2, Decision Time begin at 6.25 something completely different being measured. pm.—[Joe FitzPatrick.] I believe that the bill now strikes the right Motion agreed to. balance of flexibility and prescription. Universities The Deputy Presiding Officer: We turn to the come in all shapes and sizes, so the approach for open debate, with speeches of four minutes, each will need to be tailored accordingly. We need please. I call Marco Biagi, to be followed by Neil only look at the example of two institutions that are Bibby. headquartered in my constituency: the Open University in Scotland and the University of Edinburgh, whose different approaches make for a 17:45 striking contrast. Marco Biagi (Edinburgh Central) (SNP): My successful amendment at stage 2 enshrined Thank you, Presiding Officer. I am very grateful for the participation of staff and students in the the chance to speak in the debate, which until a widening access agreements that will be set out few seconds ago I did not think I would have. with each of the institutions and which will guide The bill is not the first step in widening access, the approaches. My hope was that by doing that nor is it the last. At 6.25 we will not be able to say we would ensure that the approaches would be “job done” and move on. The price of widening better designed and would ultimately have a access is eternal vigilance against the social and greater chance of success. It is absolutely crucial economic inequalities that will, for as long as they that the targets are successful. exist, try to pull young people and their life paths in In the same vein, I also proposed an different directions. amendment to ensure the review of widening The amendments that I proposed earlier built on access overall. I say to those who are sceptical amendments that I proposed at stage 2, and I about the targets that they should wait to see that worked on them collaboratively with the cabinet review’s findings on how they have been working. secretary. However, they also built on actions that Indeed, I ask of anybody who is critical of the bill’s I took further back when, as a student provisions on widening access: if not this bill, what representative, I argued long and hard to bring bill, and if not through targets, how? We must down barriers to access. Indeed, they built on the deliver change. steps that I took as a 17-year-old from a state Students come in all shapes and sizes, too. We school and a family with no background in higher know from study after study and pilot after pilot education, when I packed my bags and went off to that when students who have been separated by study at Scotland’s oldest university. background, privilege and advantage all their lives Since I have been in politics, there has been no sit down next to one another in the same pulling up the ladder; instead, I have always tried laboratories and lecture halls, those who had been to give a leg-up. Abolishing tuition fees and excluded rise to the challenge. That is not social increasing support for living costs to record levels engineering; that is the evidence of countless opens the door, but as MSPs we must ensure that studies. I think that when the glorious diversity of more is done to help students across the our nation is reflected in the labs and lecture halls, threshold. The lead measure in the bill for then and only then will our job be done. widening access is the system of targets. I believe The Deputy Presiding Officer: Many thanks. I that the targets must change behaviour in now call Neil Bibby, who has four minutes, to be institutions so that they make their approaches followed by Stewart Maxwell. and reaching out stronger, higher and deeper, because the status quo is just not an option. When the higher education sector receives more than 17:49 £1.5 billion a year of ever-scarcer public money, Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab): At stage 1, all institutions have to recognise that widening along with other Opposition parties, Labour called access is something that they do and that it is not for the bill to be delayed and redrafted because we someone else’s problem. felt that it was a bad bill that was incoherent, confused and clumsy. Unfortunately, our calls at

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stage 1 were not heeded and the SNP many will do so. The cabinet secretary cannot tell Government used its majority to carry on us because all of that is still to be negotiated with regardless. As a result, nearly 200 amendments the institutions. were lodged at stage 2 and more than 100 Michael Russell: The estimate is 16,000. Can amendments were lodged to be debated at stage the member explain how many would benefit if the 3 today. For the cabinet secretary’s benefit, I bill did not go through? Given that you will not confirm that that means that the number of support the bill, how many would you achieve? amendments has gone down, rather than up, between stage 2 and stage 3, but that is testament Neil Bibby: This is your bill, cabinet secretary— to our view that the bill was badly drafted. That The Deputy Presiding Officer: Speak through view is backed up by the fact that the cabinet secretary has lodged more than 100 amendments the chair, please. of his own. Today, the bill may be less bad as a Neil Bibby: I am asking how many young result of the Labour amendments lodged by the people from deprived backgrounds will get into Labour Party and some Labour amendments university as a result of the bill, but there is no lodged by Mike Russell, but many of our other answer from the cabinet secretary. suggestions were rejected during the process, and the bill is not fit to be supported. When challenged on that point by the committee, the cabinet secretary said that he did A significant number of outstanding issues still not expect an overall target to be set. If the need to be addressed. Some of those, but not all, Government was serious about widening access, might be dealt with through the higher and further it would be serious about answering such education governance codes, which will need questions. Officials even downplayed the further scrutiny by the Parliament before their possibility of financial penalties if universities did implementation by the Scottish funding council. not meet targets, although the cabinet secretary Those issues include local representation on has now talked up that possibility. All the bill’s college boards and whether principals may aims are to be achieved without any additional participate in board meetings where board budget—and without any displacement, either. If appointments and the principal’s pay are being that sounds too good to be true, that is because it discussed. However, the governance codes alone probably is. will not suffice because some provisions in the bill do not go far enough, some raise unanswered As a last line of defence, Mike Russell may now questions and some could have unintended desperately say that other parties are voting consequences. against widening access, but he and the SNP know all about voting against widening access. As Neil Findlay said, much that is in the bill SNP members voted against widening access could have been achieved without legislation. The when they slashed college budgets in 2011 and in bill centralises power in the hands of the cabinet 2012. SNP back benchers even applauded and secretary without sufficient checks—the cabinet cheered the vote to cut college budgets, and, secretary rejected a number of amendments today therefore, widening access, in February this that would have provided those checks. The bill year—that is not to mention that they voted to cut compromises autonomy and accountability, the bursaries of the poorest students in Scotland. confuses college governance, has limited ambition and, I think, pays lip service to widening access. The Deputy Presiding Officer: You must The bill also fails to challenge gender bias in our conclude. higher education governance arrangements by Neil Bibby: This has not been a good year for simply restating United Kingdom legislation. Worst Mike Russell. He misled Parliament about college of all, the bill will do nothing to create a single budgets, he had a well-publicised and college place. embarrassing spat with a college chair over a spy- In the time remaining, I want to focus on the pen and now, to cap off the year, he can take his issue of widening access, which is an aim that I SNP poodles with him on the bill but he cannot am sure we all fully support. As I have said take with him this Parliament, which he apparently previously, questions need to be raised about wants to disrupt. university admissions policies, but questions need to be raised about Scottish Government policy, 17:54 too. The Scottish Government has not stated by Stewart Maxwell (West Scotland) (SNP): The how much the bill will improve access and it has committee has had an interesting journey taking not set a target or a timescale. In today’s the bill through. We were involved in a very newspapers, Michael Russell is quoted as saying intense process with a lot of difficult and, I think, that a further 16,000 young people from deprived interesting evidence on what is a very complex bill backgrounds “could” obtain a degree. The that deals with a number of areas, but—I will come question is not how many could do so but how

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on to this point in a moment—that is what poorest communities. It is shameful that Labour Parliament and its committees are supposed to members pretend that they are in favour of do. I am not surprised, but I am disappointed, by widening access but will vote against the Labour’s reaction to having to engage in that processes that will achieve that. We have already difficult process. scrapped tuition fees in this country. That is one part of the jigsaw, but the other parts include the To speak briefly as the convener of the student support that Marco Biagi mentioned and Education and Culture Committee, I thank all the the parts of the bill that will widen access and committee members for their work and effort and allow many people to become students. I am for their dedication to going through the bill and therefore happy to support the proposals. treating it with the seriousness that it obviously deserved. I thank all the witnesses who gave us I am also pleased that we are introducing a oral evidence as well as those who submitted tuition fee cap. Although that was not supported by written evidence—they certainly deserve our some people in the university sector, I am thanks. I particularly thank the clerking team and delighted that we have put it in place. I am also the Scottish Parliament information centre for their delighted by the additional places that the cabinet efforts in supporting us through the process. secretary has announced in the past few months. Throughout all the stages of the bill, some There has been a lot of debate, discussion and members, particularly Labour Party members, disagreement about the governance issue—Liz have argued that the bill is a dog’s breakfast, a Smith in particular raised the matter. However, just shambles and badly drafted. Their argument is because the current system does not have based on the fact that there have been so many fundamental flaws, that does not mean that it amendments. There have been a lot of cannot be improved. That is what we are doing amendments, with 196 at stage 2 and 115 at stage through the bill. We are improving the system and 3. However, if that is the definition of a badly moving to a better level of governance, which is to drafted bill, the Land Reform (Scotland) Bill was be welcomed. an utter disaster, because for it there were 492 I am delighted that, finally, we are bringing amendments at stage 2 and 215 at stage 3. What together the sector under collective pay an utter catastrophe that legislation must be, Mr bargaining, which is the right thing to do. That has Bibby and Mr Findlay. You must be absolutely been lacking for far too long but, again, the Labour ashamed of it. Party will vote against it at decision time tonight. Neil Findlay: Will the member take an intervention? 17:58 Stewart Maxwell: No, because I have only four Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD): Like minutes. the Education and Culture Committee convener, I There were 255 amendments at stage 2 for the thank all those who gave evidence to the Planning etc (Scotland) Bill; 387 for the Adoption committee, as well as the clerks, SPICe and and Children (Scotland) Bill; 271 for the Protection committee colleagues for their generally good of Vulnerable Groups (Scotland) Bill; and more natured forbearance through what was a difficult than 340 for the Antisocial Behaviour etc process, as the convener conceded. (Scotland) Bill. I will not go over all the rest of it. As will have been evident from my comments Clearly, it is your view that all those bills, which I earlier this afternoon, I remain unconvinced about think have become good legislation—the the necessity of the bill. By working constructively Parliament did a good job in analysing those bills through stages 2 and 3, we have made and did its job properly—were a dog’s breakfast, a improvements in various areas and limited shambles and badly drafted. Those were all potential damage in others. However, once the Labour-Lib Dem bills. I would be interested to hear Scottish Government had railroaded through the how you defend your view of those bills, given the bill at stage 1—let us not forget that it secured the criticisms of the bill that we are considering today. support of no party in the Parliament save the The Deputy Presiding Officer: Could you Scottish National Party—the die was cast. Even speak through the chair, please, Mr Maxwell? an avalanche of amendments—we have debated about 115 of them at stage 3—has been Stewart Maxwell: Apologies, Presiding Officer. insufficient. Frankly, it is shameful for Labour members to Despite what we have heard from the cabinet come to the Parliament and do somersaults by secretary and some of his colleagues, that does saying that they support widening access for the not mean that a vote against the bill constitutes poorest students but will vote against the bill that disagreement on the broad policy objectives—it will create the very process that will achieve that. It does not. I firmly believe that widening access to will create spaces and a future for some in our our universities is essential to ensuring that

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everyone has an opportunity to fulfil their potential. help to ensure that access becomes core to the Likewise, improving the governance and mission of our universities. accountability of our colleges and universities is an I welcome the recognition that a broader issue on which consensus reigns. definition is needed for underrepresented groups, The ambition to deliver high-quality further and including those with learning difficulties, but I higher education to students of all ages in all parts believe that fair access agreements that are linked of the country—and indeed beyond—is shared by to funding carrots and sticks could achieve the members on all sides of the chamber. Although— same ends. as Stewart Maxwell said—we can point to I entirely accept that improvements are needed excellence in our colleges and universities now, to governance. In areas such as staff and student that does not mean that improvements are not representation and the need for greater diversity, necessary or not possible. transparency and accountability, the way in which We appear to agree on the policy objectives, but our universities and colleges are run is ripe for we do not agree on the means by which to reform. Again, however, I question whether that achieve them. As I said at stage 1, we as a requires to be underpinned by legislation. Having Parliament should seek to legislate only when robust codes of good governance—adherence to necessary, or when alternatives to legislation do which would be mandatory for securing public not exist or would not deliver the outcomes that we funding—seems as effective an approach and seek to achieve. would run less of a risk of compromising the responsible autonomy that is the hallmark of the All too often, we seem happier passing laws world’s most successful universities. than checking subsequently to find out whether those laws are doing what they were intended to Our colleges and universities are critical to our do. That is perhaps not surprising, as it is always success as a nation—economically, socially and comforting to point to a new piece of statute when culturally. It is right that we focus on helping to we are asked what we, as politicians, have done ensure that they are well run, accountable and to address a particular problem. diverse in their make-up in every sense, and that they provide opportunities for all to fulfil their The SNP managed—by using its majority, potential. Those are shared ambitions. I regret that against the wishes of every other party in the the vote that took place at stage 1 set us on a path chamber—to push the bill through at stage 1, that prioritised ministers’ desire to pass a bill over thereby ensuring that there would be legislation. a serious rethink about how best to achieve those However, the case for a legislative approach shared ambitions. That is indeed regrettable. remains unconvincing, and the legislation seems to be more a comfort blanket for ministers than anything else. 18:02 College regionalisation, for example, is already Liz Smith: Throughout the bill process, from the well under way, accelerating a process that has very early days, I have listened carefully to the been on-going for years. Indeed, the Education Scottish Government, to my colleagues in the and Culture Committee approved the closure and Opposition parties and to the witnesses from the transfer of another half-dozen colleges at its colleges and universities. I hope that I have been meeting yesterday. assiduous in considering each aspect of the bill. I accept that improvements have been made to At the start of the stage 1 process, the Scottish the bill since stage 1, but the case for using the Government asked us to judge the bill and legislation itself to deliver the changes has not examine its context on the basis of three specific been made. Similarly, the case for legislation on criteria: whether it would provide better support for widening access seems—notwithstanding Marco jobs and economic growth; whether it would Biagi’s thoughtful comments—to be more symbolic improve the life chances of students; and whether than anything else. it would fundamentally change the provision of skills so as to link learning to demand. Progress in that area has been far too slow, and NUS Scotland has argued that The Scottish Conservatives took the Scottish Government at its word, and throughout the “it is important to create a defined link between the public process we have listened carefully to a wide range funding universities receive, and the public benefit they provide.” of stakeholders—across the university and college sectors and in the wider economy—to find out how That may be the case, but it is not a justification they view the bill with regard to those principles. for legislation. The minimum income guarantee will help, and fair access agreements are now in I commend the convener of the Education and place. Such agreements can, along with the Culture Committee on being very good and fair in funding levers that ministers have at their disposal, convening meetings during what has been a

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tortuous bill process. As he has said, there has 18:07 been no particular objection to many of the Hugh Henry (Renfrewshire South) (Lab): general policy objectives, but there has been a There can be no doubt that the wellbeing of great deal of concern about the detail. universities and colleges is significant to I share the concern of the Labour and Liberal Parliament and everyone in Scotland. The better parties about whether legislation is in fact our colleges and universities operate and deliver, required, particularly on various aspects of the better it is for Scotland. It is unfortunate widening access and governance. It is very clear therefore that, in a bill of such significance, we that we all want to see the same ambitions, but I have reached this situation. It is a wasted have never been persuaded—and neither has the opportunity for the Parliament to come together Conservative Party at large—that the evidence and deliver something that would make a lasting points to legislation being essential. and significant difference to our colleges and universities. We heard the cabinet secretary argue time and again that there has been far too much duplication The cabinet secretary said that it was the of courses in our colleges and that the 1992 Government’s intention to listen, but I do not see legislation, which the Conservatives brought in, any evidence of that, unless he meant that he was has prevented the college sector from moving going to listen to himself and to his own party. forward. However, that legislation allowed colleges There was certainly no evidence of listening to to increase their flexibility and respond better to anything that any of the Opposition parties the needs of their local area. I find it difficult to see proposed in the Education and Culture Committee. why the cabinet secretary thinks that the 1992 It is unusual for such a significant bill to get to legislation has been so detrimental. Indeed, it is stage 3 in Parliament and not have the support of often thrown up by many of the colleges as other parties. I hope that the cabinet secretary will something that has given them extra autonomy reflect on that and ask why. and flexibility. The cabinet secretary said that there was no I repeat that the Scottish Conservatives are political reason to oppose the bill, and he is firmly in favour of widening access, but we have a absolutely right. Scottish Labour is not opposing grave difference of opinion with the Scottish the bill for political reasons but because it was Government about where that focus should be. badly conceived, badly constructed and badly We believe that the focus should be on schools. I designed, and it has been badly delivered in the noticed two weeks ago that Ferdinand von process. This has been a wasted opportunity. Prondzynski said that we should be starting in There is a range of areas in which we think that nursery schools when it comes to widening the opportunity has been wasted. Jenny Marra access, and I entirely agree with that. We would made the points about gender equality eloquently. not be in this situation if we were able to ensure I cannot for the life of me fathom why the that everyone in schools had a much fairer choice Government could not reach out and grasp the in terms of success. Raising aspirations is crucial, opportunity given by Scottish Labour—by Jenny particularly in schools in which there has not been Marra—to do something about what we all a tradition of going to college or university, and recognise is completely and utterly unacceptable. that is where the policy focus should be. It is, in many respects, far too late by the time we come to It is disappointing that the Scottish Government tertiary education. refused to take the opportunity to go further in its attempts to widen access. I do not just mean by The fact that the Opposition parties oppose doing more about the number of young people various elements of the bill is one thing, but the from disadvantaged communities who go to fact that the further and higher education sectors university. I concur with Liz Smith about the have raised significant concerns about its drafting widening access debate starting in the early years and the way in which it has progressed is quite and coming through school, so that our young another. The points that have been put to us by people, irrespective of their background, are the colleges and universities have formed our ready, able and confident to go to university opinion. because of their abilities and not their financial This has been a difficult process. I hope that we circumstances. That investment needs to be cannot be accused of taking it lightly. I hope that made, and yet the evidence, in council area after we have been serious about looking at the aims of council area throughout Scotland, is that councils, the bill but, as far as I can see, there is no irrespective of their political leadership, are compelling evidence for why the bill is necessary. struggling to deliver essential education and On that basis, the Scottish Conservatives will not services in the early years. support it at decision time. If, as he said, the cabinet secretary thinks that Scotland has the best student support package,

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why does the Government persist in financially Liz Smith: Will the cabinet secretary take an penalising poorer students by cutting grants in intervention? order to generate funds to give wealthier students Michael Russell: No. I am sorry, but I would access to cheap loans? We should not penalise like to make some progress. I have only eight the poor to help the better-off. That is a perverse minutes. notion. It is something that the cabinet secretary could have addressed in order to widen access, It is essential that we recognise what the bill and he refused to do so. achieves and address the consequences for those parties that will not support the things that are There is a trend in the bill that is deeply worrying being established today. The bill will deliver and indeed a bit scary. I remember the debates stronger widening-access provisions, establishing before the Parliament was created in which some widening access at the heart of what the Scottish people in Scotland feared that power, control and funding council and the institutions do. services would begin to be centralised in the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government. Secondly, the bill will create structures for a They were told that that would not happen. Yet, reformed college sector that will deliver better since 2007, we have seen a clear trend towards outcomes for learners and businesses. That is the centralisation of power under the control of accepted across the sector. If people vote against ministers. The bill does that in spades: we are the bill, they will be voting against better outcomes seeing more centralisation, more ministerial for learners and businesses. influence and more ministerial control. That is the The bill will pave the way for national pay wrong way to take things forward. bargaining in the college sector. Anyone who The cabinet secretary described the bill as real votes against the bill will be voting against that. reform. Does he believe that the chaos that has Neil Findlay: Will the minister take an been caused in our further education sector is positive reform? No one outside Parliament sees intervention? what is happening as positive. Staff and students Michael Russell: No, thank you. I would like to are worried and we are seeing people at each make some progress. other’s throats at a local level, where they see services and courses beginning to drift away. The bill will address the lack of equality on the Others are scared to speak out because they fear governing bodies of our post-16 institutions. It will for their positions, particularly with the mergers. All do that to the limit of the Scottish Parliament’s the while, more and more power is coming into the powers. Anyone who votes against the bill will be hands of the minister. That is the wrong way to go. voting against progress on gender issues. It is creeping centralisation and it is undermining a The bill will improve governance across both long tradition of decentralisation in Scotland. We sectors. There is no doubt about that. It takes on are going in the wrong direction. board the recommendations of two independent The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith): reviews—I stress that the reviews were I call Michael Russell to wind up the debate. independent. Cabinet secretary, you have a maximum of eight The bill puts in place mechanisms to prevent minutes. young people from dropping out of education. It also does things for student associations. 18:13 There is the shopping list. If the bill does not Michael Russell: Two weeks ago, I had a visit pass, those things will not come to pass. That is in my constituency office from the former MSP for important. Argyll and Bute, Jim Mather. Those in the Neil Findlay: Will the minister take an chamber who know him will know that he would intervention? recommend a number of books to me. He recommended a management book that was, he Michael Russell: No, I will not. said, particularly relevant because it addressed Neil Findlay: Oh, come on. the issues that one finds in public life when new ideas are promulgated. The book outlines four Michael Russell: I would like to make some types of opposition. The first type of opposition is progress, Presiding Officer. to say, “We don’t need it—yet.” The second type The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. of opposition is to say, “We don’t need it—period.” The third type of opposition is to ask endless Michael Russell: I do not recognise any questions of detail to stop it from happening. If all ideological objections from Labour at all; I simply that fails, the fourth type of opposition is character recognise oppositionalism. However, I recognise assassination. We have seen all of that. I want to the Tories’ ideological objections to what we are cut through all that today—

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trying to achieve in this bill, so I want to address Again, someone who had just arrived from Mars one or two of the points that Liz Smith raised. might believe that the Government lodged thousands of amendments to burden the poor I was surprised when Liz Smith defined the way members of the committee. However, fewer than in which reform should come about. She said that half of the stage 2 amendments—76 out of 191— we would have to ensure that a sector that is were lodged by the Government. None of those being reformed is in agreement. I will use two represented a major policy shift, but they were words to question that point: Michael Gove. It is developed to improve the bill for the benefit of simply not true that, when reform is under way, learners. everyone will agree with it. However, I am glad about the wider level of support that we have Similarly, out of 120 stage 3 amendments, 58 across the sector, and I will quote three people’s came from the Government and, again, they were views on the bill. amendments that resulted from our having listened to the sector. Indeed, 17 of those Professor Sir Timothy O’Shea, the principal of amendments were the result of Labour members the University of Edinburgh, said: making points in the committee with which I “We are very supportive of the whole bill in terms of agreed. I would have been happy to accept intentions with regards to widening participation, greater improved amendments from Labour had they efficiency of the sector and greater accountability”. come forward, but none did. On national pay John Henderson, the chief executive of Colleges bargaining, the same amendments that could not Scotland, said: have effect and the same amendments that would not have achieved the effect were simply slapped “Colleges support the principle of reform and there is much in this Bill to be welcomed.” down again without discussion. That is not the hard work that we need to improve a bill. Robin Parker, of the National Union of Students Scotland, said: Fortunately, the sector has behaved differently. It has worked closely with the Government and “The legislation must happen.”—[Official Report, some members of the committee—Mr McArthur, Education and Culture Committee, 19 February 2013; c for example, worked on the University of the 1985.] Highlands and Islands amendments along with the The impression that has been given— Highlands and Islands MSPs to do something that intentionally or unintentionally—that nobody was important—and we ended up with a much- supports the bill, and that it has simply been improved bill. dreamed up and put on the statute book, is incorrect. The bill is supported across the sector. It That is the purpose of legislation. The much- is also the result of a lengthy and detailed process. vaunted system that we have in the Parliament improves legislation as we go along. If some Again, someone who was observing this debate members do not understand that and are not having just arrived from Mars might think that no prepared to put the effort in, that is tough, because work at all had been done to get the sector onside the job of legislating is to put the effort in. Now we and involve it in the process. have a piece of legislation that works for Scotland. [Interruption.] Stewart Maxwell was right to say that the bill is controversial and complex. It requires some hard The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. The work from members to understand how the sector cabinet secretary is closing. will change and improve and to participate in the improvement of the bill. We have seen that from Michael Russell: The bill will improve the most sides of the chamber. However, what we did situation for learners in Scotland. Therefore, I go was publish a set of intentions around putting back to the point with which I opened. If anybody learners at the centre. Then, there were two in the chamber votes against the bill, here is what independent reviews of governance—not one, but they are voting against. They are voting against two—which were wide ranging and had widening access—it is not possible to support representation from across the sector. The widening access and vote against it. They are reviews were unanimous in their voting against a reformed college sector delivering recommendations, with one exception. Following better outcomes for learners and businesses. that, we consulted widely. Then we published a They are voting against national pay bargaining in bill. Then, at stage 1, considerable evidence was the college sector. They are voting against taken. After that, there was a process of measures to improve gender balance on the amendment—there was not a particularly detailed boards of the governing bodies of colleges and set of amendments in terms of numbers, but the universities. [Laughter.] process took place. We listened at stage 1 and The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. stage 2 and, when we came to stage 3, there were further improvements to the bill. Michael Russell: Ah, I wondered how long it would be before Mr Findlay started to laugh at the

21713 26 JUNE 2013 21714 things that need to happen in Scotland. He would Business Motions vote against governance across both sectors and mechanisms to help the young people of Scotland. That is what members vote against if they vote 18:22 against the bill. I quote Robin Parker again: “The The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith): legislation must happen.” That is what students The next item of business is consideration of are saying. I hope that the Parliament is listening. business motion S4M-07139, in the name of Joe FitzPatrick, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. Motion moved, That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business— Tuesday 3 September 2013 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Wednesday 4 September 2013 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business Thursday 5 September 2013 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions 11.40 am General Questions 12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions 12.30 pm Members’ Business 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions 2.30 pm Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time Tuesday 10 September 2013 2.00 pm Time for Reflection followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions followed by Topical Questions (if selected) followed by Scottish Government Business followed by Business Motions

21715 26 JUNE 2013 21716 followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions Parliamentary Bureau Motions 5.00 pm Decision Time followed by Members’ Business The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith): The next item of business is consideration of three Wednesday 11 September 2013 Parliamentary Bureau motions. I ask Joe 2.00 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions FitzPatrick to move motions S4M-07144, on the 2.00 pm Portfolio Questions designation of a lead committee; motion S4M- Rural Affairs and the Environment; 07145, on the approval of a Scottish statutory Justice and the Law Officers instrument; and motion S4M-07156, on followed by Scottish Government Business parliamentary recess dates. followed by Business Motions Motions moved, followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions That the Parliament agrees that the Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill be referred at stage 2 to the 5.00 pm Decision Time Justice Committee in terms of sections 1 to 25 and 28 to 31 and to the Health and Sport Committee in terms of sections followed by Members’ Business 26 and 27. Thursday 12 September 2013 That the Parliament agrees that the Public Services 11.40 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions Reform (Functions of the Common Services Agency for the Scottish Health Service) (Scotland) Order 2013 [draft] be 11.40 am General Questions approved. 12.00 pm First Minister’s Questions That the Parliament agrees the following parliamentary 12.30 pm Members’ Business recess dates under Rule 2.3.1: 8 to 16 February 2014 (inclusive), 5 to 20 April 2014 (inclusive), 28 June to 3 2.30 pm Parliamentary Bureau Motions August 2014 (inclusive), 23 August to 21 September 2014 (inclusive), 11 to 26 October 2014 (inclusive) and 20 2.30 pm Scottish Government Business December 2014 to 4 January 2015 (inclusive).—[Joe followed by Business Motions FitzPatrick.] followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions The Deputy Presiding Officer: I ask any 5.00 pm Decision Time—[Joe FitzPatrick.] member who wishes to speak against motion S4M-07156 to press their request-to-speak button Motion agreed to. now. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next item of business is consideration of business motion 18:24 S4M-07140, in the name of Joe FitzPatrick, on Paul Martin (Glasgow Provan) (Lab): I rise to behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a oppose the motion in the name of Joe FitzPatrick, stage 1 timetable for the Bankruptcy and Debt on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, that Advice (Scotland) Bill. proposes that the recess dates should be Motion moved, amended to allow for the Parliament to be closed down from 23 August until 21 September 2014 That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Bankruptcy and Debt Advice (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 be inclusive. completed by 20 December 2013.—[Joe FitzPatrick.] The Government advises that it is concerned Motion agreed to. that, during the 28-day period in the run-up to the referendum, it could be accused of abusing its The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next item position. [Interruption.] of business is consideration of business motion S4M-07141, in the name of Joe FitzPatrick, on The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a Paul Martin: I have never known the stage 1 timetable for the Public Bodies (Joint Government to be so sensitive. Is this the Working) (Scotland) Bill. Government that has used its position in power to Motion moved, expend large sums of public money on legal cases to prevent information from being disclosed? Is That the Parliament agrees that consideration of the Public Bodies (Joint Working) (Scotland) Bill at stage 1 be this the Government that has abused its majority completed by 6 December 2013.—[Joe FitzPatrick.] in committees to prevent proper scrutiny? [Interruption.] Motion agreed to. The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. Paul Martin: There are many examples that could be amplified clearly in the chamber.

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We have been clear from the outset that the Paul Martin: We have made a number of Parliament should remain open for business as constructive and reasonable proposals to the usual. As a possible compromise, we considered Government. We call on it to suspend the decision the possibility of the final week of the referendum today and ensure that it lodges amendments to campaign being an area for negotiation, but the the referendum bill. Government discounted that from the outset of the The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call on Joe discussions. FitzPatrick to respond. Minister, you have up to The excuse from the Government is that the three minutes. way in which the Scottish Independence Referendum Bill has been drafted would make it 18:28 difficult for the Parliament to operate during that period. That point has been made on a number of The Minister for Parliamentary Business (Joe occasions via the Government’s business FitzPatrick): The historic Edinburgh agreement manager. I can understand the concerns that the that was signed on 15 October 2012 paved the Government has raised, and I consider myself a way for the referendum that will be held on 18 fair-minded individual. [Interruption.] September next year. Central to that agreement was the commitment to ensure that the Parliament The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. will deliver a referendum that meets the highest Paul Martin: In the spirit of being constructive, I standards of fairness, transparency and propriety. have sought to find a solution to the challenges That is reflected in schedule 4 to the referendum that the Government faces. Indeed, I have bill, which proposes restrictions on what the received written advice from the parliamentary Government, public bodies and the Parliament can clerks, who advise that it is perfectly possible for do during the 28 days prior to the referendum. amendments to the bill to be lodged that would [Interruption.] allow the Parliament to continue meeting up until The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. and beyond the referendum date. Joe FitzPatrick: That 28-day period is exactly Patrick Harvie (Glasgow) (Green): Will the the same as was used for the most recent Scottish member give way? Parliament elections. Paul Martin: I will give way in a moment. To comply with the spirit of both the Edinburgh Even at this late stage, I call on the Government agreement and schedule 4 to the referendum bill, to suspend the decision to allow it to lodge it is clear that the Parliament cannot operate as amendments to the referendum bill. normal during the 28-day period. What could be debated and scrutinised would be heavily I give way to Patrick Harvie. restricted. Therefore, the bureau is proposing The Deputy Presiding Officer: Very briefly, alterations to the normal nine-week summer please. recess period. [Interruption.] Patrick Harvie: One concern is to ensure that The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order, please. the Parliament can meet. Another is to ensure that Joe FitzPatrick: In coming to a decision, there ministers are able to participate in meetings of are three principles that we should adhere to. Parliament when the subject is relevant to the First, I believe that there should be no extension to referendum— the normal period of recess, whereas the proposal The Deputy Presiding Officer: I must hurry that has been put forward by the Conservative you. Party and supported by the Labour Party and the Liberals would add one week to the recess. Patrick Harvie: —and another is to ensure that [Interruption.] Opposition members can hold ministers to account during purdah for statements that they made The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order. before it. Joe FitzPatrick: Secondly, we should be The Deputy Presiding Officer: I am afraid that mindful of school holidays in Scotland. Thirdly, we I must hurry you. should protect the 28-day period. [Interruption.] Patrick Harvie: Why did the member’s The Deputy Presiding Officer: Order, please. colleagues not propose changes to the bill on Joe FitzPatrick: Contrary to the wild those matters during the evidence sessions on the suggestions of some, that will ensure that we bill? maintain the time for the Parliament to conduct The Deputy Presiding Officer: I am afraid that business without restrictions. While others wish to Paul Martin’s time is up. waste parliamentary time, we wish to protect it.

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The cat is well and truly out of the bag and now Decision Time we know the real reason for the feigned outrage of the unholy Labour-Tory-Liberal alliance. Far from being concerned about parliamentary procedures, 18:31 those parties have been found out for simply seeking to grant themselves an extra week’s The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith): holiday. They should all be ashamed of There are four questions to be put as a result of themselves. today’s business. The first question is, that motion S4M-07108, in the name of Michael Russell, on These proposals achieve all of the three the Post-16 Education (Scotland) Bill, be agreed principles and simply move three weeks of the to. Are we agreed? usual nine-week recess from August to September. It is a sensible and pragmatic Members: No. approach for this period, which is of huge The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a significance to our nation’s history. division. The Deputy Presiding Officer: The question For on the motions will be put at decision time. Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- shire) (SNP) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP) Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP) Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)

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Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Motion agreed to, Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees that the Post-16 Education Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) (Scotland) Bill be passed. Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) question is, that motion S4M-07144, in the name Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) of Joe FitzPatrick, on designation of a lead Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) committee, be agreed to. Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Motion agreed to, Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) That the Parliament agrees that the Victims and (SNP) Witnesses (Scotland) Bill be referred at stage 2 to the Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) Justice Committee in terms of sections 1 to 25 and 28 to 31 White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) and to the Health and Sport Committee in terms of sections Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) 26 and 27. Against The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) question is, that motion S4M-07145, in the name Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) of Joe FitzPatrick, on approval of a Scottish Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) statutory instrument, be agreed to. Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Motion agreed to, Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) That the Parliament agrees that the Public Services Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Reform (Functions of the Common Services Agency for the Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Scottish Health Service) (Scotland) Order 2013 [draft] be Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) approved. Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The next Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) question is, that motion S4M-07156, in the name Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) of Joe FitzPatrick, on parliamentary recess dates, Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) be agreed to. Are we agreed? Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Members: No. Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) The Deputy Presiding Officer: There will be a Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) division. Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) For Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab) Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross- McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) shire) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Lauderdale) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green) Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP) the division is: For 65, Against 51, Abstentions 0. Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)

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Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green) McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP) McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD) Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP) McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab) Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP) McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab) Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP) McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP) McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab) MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP) Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con) Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP) Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con) MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP) Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab) Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP) Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab) Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP) Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab) Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP) Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD) McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP) Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con) McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP) Scott, John (Ayr) (Con) McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD) (SNP) Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab) McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP) Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP) Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP) Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) The Deputy Presiding Officer: The result of Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP) the division is: For 65, Against 51, Abstentions 0. Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP) Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP) Motion agreed to, Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP) That the Parliament agrees the following parliamentary Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP) recess dates under Rule 2.3.1: 8 to 16 February 2014 Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP) (inclusive), 5 to 20 April 2014 (inclusive), 28 June to 3 Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP) August 2014 (inclusive), 23 August to 21 September 2014 Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP) (inclusive), 11 to 26 October 2014 (inclusive) and 20 Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP) December 2014 to 4 January 2015 (inclusive). Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP) Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP) Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (Ind) Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP) Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP) White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP) Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP) Against Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab) Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab) Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab) Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab) Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab) Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab) Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con) Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con) Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab) Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con) Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab) Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab) Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab) Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab) Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con) Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab) Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con) Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab) Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab) Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab) Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD) Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con) Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab) Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab) Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab) Malik, Hanzala (Glasgow) (Lab) Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab) Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab) McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD) McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab) McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)

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ASH Scotland’s 40th Anniversary By the late 1990s and into the new millennium, ASH Scotland had grown from two people to The Deputy Presiding Officer (John Scott): nearly 20 and offered the public specialist tobacco information and smoking cessation services. It The final item of business is a members’ business also developed and delivered projects to reduce debate on motion S4M-06389, in the name of the health inequalities resulting from tobacco. Duncan McNeil, on the 40th anniversary of Action on Smoking & Health (Scotland). The debate will The 2000s saw a raft of strong controls on be concluded without any question being put. tobacco from Holyrood and Westminster. Scotland Motion debated, led the United Kingdom by introducing smoke-free public places in 2006. We also saw a UK-wide ban That the Parliament notes that 2013 is the 40th on tobacco advertising and sponsorship and a rise anniversary of the founding of ASH Scotland; notes that the in the minimum age of sale from 16 to 18, along health charity works with a wide range of partners in pursuit of “a healthier Scotland, free from the harm and inequality with graphic warnings on each pack and the caused by tobacco”; understands that, during this time, the expansion throughout Scotland of free national smoking rate among adults in Scotland has halved to health service support for people who want to stop 23.3%; believes that this has brought huge benefits, with smoking. one million people having greatly reduced risk of contracting cancer, heart disease, stroke and other Forty years of action on smoking and health is conditions; believes that preventing children from taking up the proud boast of ASH Scotland. Although it smoking, protecting people from second-hand smoke and would not claim to have done all that on its own, it supporting smokers who want to quit is crucial to further has worked with organisations such as the British improving health in Greenock and Inverclyde and across the country, and looks forward to a time when the only Heart Foundation and the Government to achieve people who smoke are the small number of adults who a legacy of which to be proud in highlighting the actively choose to do so. hazards and risks of smoking for individuals, groups, children and young people. 18:34 Since ASH Scotland was formed more than four Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) decades ago, the number of adults in Scotland (Lab): It has been a long day and I thank all the who smoke has more than halved, from 50 per members who have been able to stay behind and, cent of the population in the early 1970s to less of course, all those who signed the motion. than 25 per cent today. That means that about a million fewer adults in Scotland are now smoking. In 1973, the Scottish committee of Action on Smoking and Health, as it was originally known, We cannot discuss the ASH Scotland story was established by the Royal College of without mentioning the impact that it has had in Physicians of Edinburgh. It operated from a small the Parliament. No one who was in and around the backroom in the RCPE buildings with just two part- Parliament in the lead-up to and during the time staff—its medical director, Dr Eileen Crofton, passage of the bill that introduced the ban on the wife of Sir John Crofton, and its secretary, smoking in public places could have been Alison Hillhouse, who became ASH Scotland’s unaware of the campaigning zeal of ASH chief executive in 1984. Scotland—it could not be ignored. Its impact in the Parliament was significant as it pushed and The world was very different then and smoking encouraged us to make decisions that, it must be was accepted as the norm in Scotland in public conceded, resulted in what some people and private. People then were just as likely to see described as a ban too far, although others somebody smoking in hospital as we are to see described it as the single biggest public health people smoking outside a hospital entrance now, measure that we could have taken to improve the since action has been taken. ASH Scotland health of the people of Scotland. campaigned to limit the influence of the tobacco industry through advertising and sponsorship, to That was when I and many others came across increase tobacco taxation, to create smoke-free the organisation up close. I confess that, as a places and to provide advice to smokers who member of the then Health Committee, which wanted to quit. scrutinised the bill, I was sceptical about what the ban could achieve and what was possible. I was ASH Scotland worked hard to communicate to unconvinced not about the harm of smoking but policy makers the evidence of the harm that about what we could achieve. I asked many tough smoking does. Many of us will remember the questions of organisations and others throughout successful publication in 1982 of the facts that process. constituency by constituency—that is almost the norm now—to influence politicians and to make It was a tough gig to be on that committee. The the Scottish epidemic more vivid to then convener, Roseanna Cunningham, was parliamentarians. uncompromising. She dragged us off to Dublin on a fact-finding mission. We visited bar after bar in

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the Temple Bar area long into the night, with many of tobacco; during this short debate, someone will hours given to the examination of the impact of the die because tobacco companies choose that that smoking ban in Ireland. is the case. The Deputy Presiding Officer: You have one ASH has done a great deal in the 40 years since minute left. it was founded to raise the issue in the public consciousness and in legislative fora. I was a Duncan McNeil: After the visit, I freely accept fresh-faced 26-year-old when it was founded. I do that, far from being sceptical, I became optimistic not see that person in the mirror today; I see a about what could be achieved. I was, if members very different Scotland in the mirror today. like, converted on the road back from Dublin. Smoking is not a new issue. I will provide My efforts to get on board were not always members with some quotes. First, welcome. My amendment to the Smoking, Health and Social Care (Scotland) Bill to change the “smoking is dangerous to the lungs.” minimum legal age for buying tobacco to 18 did Secondly, it is not get off to the best start. ASH was sceptical about whether that would be a good measure, but “Hurtfull and dangerous to youth.” I was pleased to convert it on that occasion. I see Thirdly, it is that it now lists the increase in the age at which tobacco can be purchased as a significant “very pernicious to the heart.” milestone. Those quotations were published respectively in Although this is a night to congratulate ASH on 1604, 1606 and 1637 by James VI. In my family, its work and achievements, we agree that much that takes me 10 generations back to my eight- more needs to be done. There are issues that times great-grandfather, Andrew Berry. relate to young adolescents and inequalities that James VI wrote in “A Counter-blaste to must be addressed, and we agree on that point, Tobacco”: too. “This filthy smoke makes a kitchen oftentimes in the I thank the Presiding Officer for his indulgence. inward parts of men, soiling and infecting them with an unctuous and oily kinde of soote, as hath bene found ... The Deputy Presiding Officer: Members will That after their death were opened.” be aware that standing orders dictate that we must He attended post-mortems and saw, 400 years finish by 7 o’clock. I ask the members who are due ago, the effects of tobacco. We still grapple with to speak to confine themselves to no more than that issue. their time; less would be more—that would be appreciated. One of the first acts of James VI in 1603, when he became the king of the United Kingdom, was to I call Stewart Stevenson, who has up to four raise the taxation on a pound of tobacco from minutes. tuppence to £6 and 10 shillings, so this guy got it right. In today’s terms, by the way, that would be 18:42 equivalent to a tax of £40,000 on a pound of Stewart Stevenson (Banffshire and Buchan tobacco. That shows that we have understood the Coast) (SNP): I start by congratulating Duncan problem for a very long time, yet we still allow the McNeil on giving me another opportunity to be less pernicious tobacco companies to kill people in our than moderate on a subject that I am passionate society. about. I register once again my absolute In the 20th century, more people in the UK were admiration for the political courage of a Labour lost to the consequences of smoking than have First Minister, Jack McConnell, when, building on been lost in all the wars in which we have been the work of Stewart Maxwell, he put his personal involved—I include civilian and military casualties. credibility on the line to make the smoking More people have been killed by smoking. legislation happen. Those were brave acts that Therefore, when we talk about smoking prevention should be congratulated. and ASH’s role in it, we talk about an extremely Kezia Dugdale (Lothian) (Lab): Will the important subject. member give way? Ireland is a good model in one way, but there Stewart Stevenson: Please forgive me, but I are still ashtrays in the bar behind the Dáil—there really do not have time. is a special, informal exception for members of the Dáil. Thank goodness we have not followed them As I have said, I am no moderate on the subject. down that road. When others suggest that tobacco companies are murderers, I can summon no counter-argument. Every 30 minutes, a Scot dies as a consequence

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18:46 smoking to be given every encouragement to do Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland) (Con): I that. I want every effort to be made to reduce suppose that, in what constitutes an all-night smoking among young people. sitting for this Parliament, it is appropriate, at the However, I am also pragmatic in as much as I fag end of the day, that we should be discussing do not want to hitch myself to every bandwagon ASH. I thank Duncan McNeil for lodging the that is going. I note that ASH says that it supports motion, and I note that ASH has endured for 40 only things that are fundamentally evidence years. based. If that is the case, I would prefer to see the After that, I am afraid that I am not going to be empirical evidence from Australia on plain very nice, because I have a number of packaging before I assert that that will make a reservations. First, I declare a vested interest: I am difference. If it does, I will be very happy to a lifelong non-smoker. I abhor smoke. Growing up, support it, but if it does not, the campaign for plain I would come home on the school bus, which had packaging is a campaign towards a false promise. the bench seats upstairs. You could have cut the If it does not contribute to reducing smoking, a atmosphere on the top deck of the bus with a knife legislative solution that promotes something that, and fork. I agree with everything that Stewart ultimately, is proven not to work is not a sensible Stevenson said about smoking and its effect on use of our time. public health, and the loss of life that it has caused Similarly, I note that ASH Scotland says that we over many years. should support the member’s bill to make it illegal I am prepared to attribute to ASH some of the to smoke in cars where children are present. I credit for many of the initiatives that Duncan have huge concerns about the enforceability of McNeil listed, although many of those initiatives that. For example, will children, as the only were progressed by committed politicians on all witnesses, be called to give evidence against their sides of the political divide out of conviction, and parents? I do not know. not just because an external agency was lobbying For all that, I think that people at the age of 40 for them. should stand on their own two feet, not on public My reservations about ASH relate to its funding. subsidies, and I want ASH to cease its public Of the £1.2 million that it received last year, only funding and make its own way in the world by £23,000 came from donations that it received, as a encouraging the public to give it the money that it charity, from the public, whereas £569,000 came needs. from the Government. Of the voluntary income component of £307,000, a further £250,000 came 18:50 from the Government, and £33,000 came from Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab): I welcome NHS Scotland. the opportunity to participate in the debate and join I suppose that what really concerns me is that others in congratulating Duncan McNeil on donations were received from the British Heart securing the time for it, albeit at the end of a long Foundation and Cancer Research UK. I say that day. because I do not know that, when people give It is customary for members to agree with one money to those organisations in voluntary another in members’ business debates, but I find it appeals, they realise that some of it is transferred extremely difficult to agree with anything that directly, by way of a grant, to a campaigning organisation such as ASH. That knowledge would Jackson Carlaw said. However, I will leave it at not change my donation. I donate a considerable that; after all, we are here to celebrate ASH Scotland’s 40th anniversary and we can be in no amount of money to Cancer Research UK each doubt that they have been 40 years of very year, but I do so because I think that the effective and successful campaigning to ensure organisation is researching into a cure for cancer. I that action is taken on smoking. think that there needs to be more transparency on where the funding comes from and where it goes. ASH Scotland has been key in changing public I look at where the money was spent. Of the opinion and challenging Government at all levels to be brave and to lead the way in tackling the £1.2 million, £910,000 was spent on salaries. Very consequences of smoking. We all know about the little was spent on campaigning; indeed, link between tobacco and ill health and, indeed, expenditure on publications and the website fell the abundantly clear link with cancer and we know over the past year. At the same time, expenditure on fees to consultancies and on travel to attend that it increases the risk of a variety of conditions various conferences increased. that I will not name in deference to the Presiding Officer and his wish that my speech be swift. The I want to see direct action to assist people to point is that there really is nothing good to be said reduce their smoking. I want to see smoking levels about smoking. Equally, there is nothing quite like being reduced. I want people who want to give up a convert. I gave up smoking something like a

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decade ago and have never looked back, and I although I have to confess that when it was would encourage others to do the same. established I had not even started primary school. It is right that we record the progress on this In its 40 years, ASH Scotland has made a lot of issue that has been made in both Parliaments. progress in supporting changes to our society’s Tobacco advertising was banned first on radio and overall perception of smoking and tobacco. The then on television; health warnings began to cultural shift that has been created has, if appear on cigarette packets; and the legislation to anything, probably been more significant than the ban smoking in public spaces, which was an simple legislative changes that have been made, historic moment for this Parliament, has made a and like others I pay tribute to ASH Scotland for its huge difference. I should perhaps put on record significant contribution to Scotland’s tobacco that, way back in 1983, George Foulkes was the control strategy and agenda in recent years. All very first person to introduce a member’s bill on those who have been associated with ASH this subject—not here, but in another place—and Scotland over the years can be very proud of the that he was very patient in waiting for legislation part that they have played in that success, on the matter to be passed. Of course, Duncan particularly in more recent years. McNeil was very successful in pushing through the Duncan McNeil said that he was involved in Parliament’s committee system measures to raise scrutinising the bill to introduce the ban on the age for purchasing tobacco from 16 to 18. smoking in public places. Scotland led the way in Then we had the ban on unstaffed vending the United Kingdom in that particular area of machines and the changes to tobacco displays. As policy, and Ireland was among the first countries in Mr McNeil pointed out, the adult smoking rate the world to introduce such a ban. However, when ASH Scotland was set up was 50 per cent; significant work was done in the Scottish according to the latest Scottish household survey, Parliament before we got to the point of legislation. which is for 2011, that rate is down to 23 per cent. Kenny Gibson looked to introduce a member’s bill I welcome the Scottish Government’s most to ban smoking in restaurants, and Stewart recent strategy on achieving a smoke-free Maxwell looked to introduce a member’s bill before Scotland. However, although we agree with the the then Scottish Executive decided to introduce aspiration, we recognise that it will be a challenge its own legislation to ban smoking in public places. to deliver and I hope that the minister will outline Therefore, from a very early stage in the some of the action that the Government intends to Parliament, there was clearly an intention among take, particularly in deprived areas. After all, the members to consider how we could address prevalence rate of smoking in disadvantaged smoking in our society and to take forward areas is 40 per cent; when we compare that with progressive measures that would assist us in the rate for adults in the least deprived areas, doing that. which stands at 11 per cent, we realise that there We have made significant progress since the is a huge job still to be done. The gap is just too ban was introduced in 2006. As Jackie Baillie big and is a major contributor to health inequality mentioned, we have had the comprehensive and mortality rates. If the minister is going to legislation to ban tobacco advertising and choose only one area on which we should focus, I promotion, which has been implemented across plead with him that it should be that one. the UK. The minimum age of sale has been Most people I know experience a road to raised—Duncan McNeil referred to that. We have Damascus moment; in Duncan McNeil’s case, it seen the implementation of large graphic warnings was the road back from Dublin. I congratulate ASH on packs as a result of policy changes, and not only on making us all brave and ensuring that smoking cessation services have been established we took that same road, but on ensuring that we and have become increasingly accessible across continue to be brave in future. the country. The Deputy Presiding Officer: I call Michael I am pleased that, following the unsuccessful Matheson. Minister, you may have the six minutes legal challenges that the tobacco companies and 15 seconds up to 7 o’clock. mounted against the legislation to ban the display of tobacco in shops, larger shops have introduced a display ban. By April 2015, the ban on tobacco 18:53 displays will be implemented in our smaller The Minister for Public Health (Michael retailers. Matheson): Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Jackie Baillie referred to our new “Creating a Tobacco-free Generation” tobacco control Like others, I congratulate Duncan McNeil on strategy, which I launched at the end of March this securing time for this important debate, and I year. Again, I thank ASH for the role that it played welcome his reflections on ASH Scotland’s work, in supporting the development of that strategy.

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Scotland is among the first countries in the Corrections world to have introduced an ambitious target for reducing smoking prevalence. The target is to Michael Russell has identified an error in his reduce that to 5 per cent of our population by contribution and provided the following correction. 2034. A child who is born this year will celebrate their 21st birthday in 2034. Our aim is to create a The Cabinet Secretary for Education and generation of young people and young adults who Lifelong Learning (Michael Russell): do not smoke; to create a Scotland in which young At col 21547, paragraph 2, col 21552, people and young adults turn away from tobacco paragraph 7, and col 21557, paragraph 4— use; and to get the health, social and economic benefits that will come from that approach. As a Original text— Government, we recognise that that is a very The colleges aim for a vesting date of 1 ambitious approach to take to tobacco control, but November 2013. we believe that we need to take bold and decisive action to reduce smoking prevalence in Scotland Corrected text— further to create a tobacco-free generation. The colleges aim for a vesting date of 1 August The 5 per cent target is certainly challenging. 2013. Achieving it will require a determined effort on the part of the Government and other agencies that John Finnie has identified an error in his have a role to play in helping to reduce smoking contribution and provided the following correction. prevalence. We believe that the target can help to John Finnie (Highlands and Islands) (Ind): ensure that we fundamentally change the whole culture of smoking in Scotland and get the health At col 21550, paragraph 3— benefits that will come from that. Original text— We will take forward a range of measures in the From 2010-11 to 2011-12, the salary of the five-year strategy to ensure that we take action. principal of the University of the Highlands and The strategy includes a national campaign that will Islands increased by 31 per cent to £227,000: an start early next year to raise awareness of the obscene increase to an obscene sum. dangers associated with smoking in enclosed spaces; the introduction of a new target to achieve Corrected text— a substantial reduction in children’s exposure to From 2010-11 to 2011-12, the salary including second-hand smoke by 2020; continued support pension contribution of the principal of the for parents to create smoke-free homes for University of the Highlands and Islands increased children; and the aim of all our NHS boards having by 31 per cent to £227,000: an obscene increase smoke-free grounds by 2015. We will also review to an obscene sum. our smoking cessation services with a view to ensuring that they are much more effective, particularly in tackling smoking in our more deprived communities, in order to close the gap. The strategy can help to deliver real change over the next five years. It can help to ensure that we make progress on the agenda and demonstrate yet again that Scotland is prepared to lead the world in taking forward the necessary bold measures that will enable us to achieve our target of becoming a smoke-free nation by 2034. I have no doubt that ASH Scotland will continue to play its role in ensuring that we deliver on that commitment. Meeting closed at 18:59.

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