MELVIN LAIRD: A FIGHTER FOR FREEDOM A Conversation with James J. Unger

Unger: I’d like to tration, and the Johnson Ad- that we have. Do you see a start, Mr. Secretary, actu- ministration. I made it a major revision in that? ally, with your experiences. policy that we were going to I think it’s most appropriate reduce the manpower in that Laird: Well, as you know, today, as soon as you leave area everyday. And we did! when I came over in the De- us here, you’re attending the Everyday, we reduced the man- fense Department, the roles swearing-in of a new Secre- power in that area, while I and missions were set up so tary of Defense, here in this was Secretary of Defense. I that the U.S. military forces city. And in reading some of got all the ground combat would be in a position where the materials for this inter- forces out of there before I they could fight two major view, I was struck by a quo- left office. I got a lot of wars at one time. I changed tation that you gave: “The job the Air Force and the Navy that to one war, and one re- of Secretary of Defense is a out of that area, too. So, gional conflict. Then it was loser.” Trying to manage the it was not a pleasant time changed back by the Reagan world’s biggest business, you because the American people Administration to a two war take a real and major batter- did not support our involve- concept. That sets all your ing under the circumstances. ment. That’s why Nixon was force levels and your equip- elected President of the ment, and everything else. I Laird: It’s much easier, United States. Because they believe they’re going to have now. were fed up with the over- to make another change, and involvement of the United be in a position to be able Unger: Well, that’s what States in Vietnam. Eisenhower to handle two regional con- I was going to ask. Today, said back in 1956, the worst flicts, rather than the major are we swearing in a loser or place in the world to get in- concept. So that debate is a winner? volved in ground combat is in going on in the Pentagon right Southeast Asia. When he at the present time. I think Laird: Well, I think you brought about the peace agree- that’s the way it will come can be a winner, now. When I ment in Korea he said, "Never out. You will have a greater was sworn in, the day I was again!" And he disciplined reliance on the Reserve and sworn in, there were 538,000 Vice President Nixon for say- the National Guard, as we go men in Vietnam in ground com- ing we should help the French. on down through the next year bat roles. There were an- Eisenhower came out and said or two. That’s part of that other 1.5 million support, not on the ground. Well, we total force concept, which I 500,000 support in the Navy were on the ground when I went started, and I think is going surrounding that area in over there. So, it was a dif- to require more and more of a Okinawa, in the Philippines, ficult situation. reliance on the National Guard in Thailand, in Guam. So you So, your quote is a good and the reserve forces. had over in that area dedi- quote, but the conditions to- cated to that particular con- day are different. The man- Unger: You know, we frontation and that war, 2 power is just a quarter of think of our wars, the wars million men and women. You what it was. The civilian of the past, in global con- were getting casualty reports employment is just about a flict terms -- World War II, everyday. And you can never quarter of what it was. So or the Korean conflict, Viet- be a winner when you sit there you’ve got an entirely dif- nam. But for the wars of the and get casualty reports on a ferent situation. future, we have a recent piece daily basis. It is a losing by Charles Robb in The Wash- proposition. I established Unger: One of the head- ington Post, the title of it the volunteer service. I lines we’ve seen in recent is “Be Ready for Two Desert ended the draft. I started a weeks here in the Washington Storms.” That’s quite a bit lottery and did away with col- papers talks about the outgo- different than be ready for a lege deferments, because it ing Secretary of Defense: World War II or a Korean War. was unfair during that par- "Perry resists cuts in mili- Where do you think we are in ticular period. Early on, tary force." And my under- that? when I first went on the De- standing is, right now, that fense Appropriations Commit- the Pentagon is engaged in one Laird: Right, that’s tee, we had 367 men in Viet- of those on-going, many major where I think we’ll come out nam. Then it went up to 12,000 reviews that we have of how -- in that general area. And during the Kennedy Adminis- best to size and shape U.S. that discussion is going on. tration. Then that great es- forces. There obviously is a I spent a lot of time with calation came in the latter dynamic interaction between some of them in the Pentagon part of the Kennedy Adminis- our capabilities and the goals just last week, going over that whole scenario. And I fight that’s going on in think the article you referred Ethiopia right now, very few to is the movement in that people are paying attention direction. That decision has James J. Unger to it. Angola has quieted not been made because Secre- Director of Forensics at down. There’s a settlement tary Perry did not make the the National Forensics Insti- that has been reached in the decision, and did not condone tute and American University, last three weeks; that bloody it as a policy, and the Ad- and former Director of Foren- war that was going on there ministration is not condon- sics at Boston College and for the last twelve years, has ing a policy in that regard, Georgetown University, Unger quieted down. But you can go yet. I think they’re going received his B.A. as valedic- on, then, throughout Africa to have to face up to it, and torian from Boston College and and you can go on over to Asia make that decision, because his J.D. from Harvard Univer- and look at those wars that you can’t plan your force sity Law School. As an in- are going on. Should we be a structure if you don’t have tercollegiate debater he part of it? What is our re- that policy guideline. reached the semifinals and sponsibility here? What is finals of the National Debate the United Nations’ respon- Unger: Are you satis- Tournament. During his years sibility? Do we stand by and fied that the current Admin- as coach at Georgetown, his let this killing go on? I istration, current Department teams reached the final round mean, we got involved in So- of Defense, has an adequate of every major intercollegiate malia because there was great input through past experiences tournament, including the Na- public attention to it. We to those individuals such as tional Championship, often had great coverage of the yourself and that they take more than once. His teams situation that was develop- account of it? were ranked “Number One” in ing and we had pictures al- the nation in the National most every night for a while Laird: They take account Coaches Poll an unprecedented on television of these chil- of it. I was very close to five times. As Director of dren starving and dying. And Perry; he was a very good Forensics at American Univer- that aroused the public sup- friend of mine, over a long sity, his teams have reached port and public sentiment. period of time. I’m not criti- the Final Round at numerous cizing his failing to make the national tournaments and the Unger: I’ve got a quote decision. It’s a tough deci- semifinals at the 1994 CEDA here from a memorandum--I sion to make, but it has to National Championship Debate think you submitted to Presi- be made and it has to be made Tournament. A former "Col- dent Reagan-- about a problem in mind of how the total force lege Coach of the Year", Unger of defense planning. I want concept works. Not only with is a debate consultant to both to quote it here, and then our five bilateral treaties, NBC and ABC. In every elec- get your reaction as to where but also with the four major tion year since 1976 he served we stand on this issue today. multi-lateral treaties, which as Chairperson of the Associ- You say “I know that the pub- give us a military commitment ated Press National Presiden- lic can reverse its views on around the world. Now that tial Debate Evaluation Panel. defense needs faster than of military commitment has In 1992 he also assumed simi- any other national issue. changed under those treaties lar duties for United Press Recurring failures of popu- because the Soviet Union was International and The New York lar consensus over the past once a major power. Now the Daily News, and appeared on 35 years have produced boom United States is the last ma- more than thirty national me- and bust cycles of defense jor military power in the dia shows. spending. The key to break- world. And we take on cer- In a recent national poll ing wildly destructive cycles tain responsibilities. You of leading intercollegiate of spending is a positive, talked in your question about coaches and debaters, he was stable consensus.” Do you wars. There are twelve wars named both the Outstanding De- think we have that kind of going on in the world today! bate Coach and the Outstand- informational consensus and Now, those are wars in which ing Debate Judge of the en- awareness now on the part of many thousands of people are tire decade of the 1970s. In the public that allow adequate losing their lives, almost on 1982, he received an honorary economic support for the poli- a daily basis. A lot of people Gold Key from the Barkley Fo- cies that we need? don’t pay much attention to rum of Emory University. He those wars, because in order recently appeared as modera- Laird: No, I don’t. The to get public attention, tor-host for the distinguished two war concept is still in you’ve got to cover them on NFL National Forensic Library, existence and I don’t think television, or you’ve got to a comprehensive instructional that the American public can be there with a lot of news videotape series supported by be brought to support it as a coverage. The thing that’s the Bradley Foundation. A consensus position. So I think going on in Zaire right now substantial component of that changes have to be made now is not being noticed. The series was “Unger and Com- in view of the changing cir- pany,” a set of McLaughlin Group format tapes in which Dr. Unger led top national cumstances throughout the States, the Commander-In-Chief world. We have to be watch- of our forces, as far as mili- ing very carefully the devel- tary and foreign policy strat- opments as far as China is Melvin R. Laird egy is concerned. concerned. Fifteen years from About America's greatest now with their tremendous an- Secretary of Defense one pub- Unger: What is your own nual growth rate of 10% China lication recently wrote: “As assessment over the past could be an immense global much as anybody in Washing- twenty, thirty, forty years - economic and military power. ton, Melvin R. Laird under- - how many of our Presidents They’re building up a strong, stands the clockwork of power have done a good job with that strong ground combat force. . . . his views and expertise buck, in terms of defense? They don’t have anywhere near count on almost any subject.” the force that the United Melvin Laird is Senior Laird: Well, I think the States has, as far as weap- Counsellor for National and best job was done by Presi- onry is concerned. But as I International Affairs and a dent Eisenhower. He under- listened to Sam Nunn last Director of the Reader’s Di- stood it, and he was willing night as he received the Paul gest Association, Inc. He to take leadership in that Nitze Award from the Naval formerly served as Secretary area. There were people criti- Research Center, it was a very of Defense, 1969-73; Counsel- cal of him at the time, say- interesting speech that he lor to the President for Do- ing that there was a great made. He stressed almost en- mestic Affairs, 1973-74; and missile gap developing in the tirely where China would be a nine terms, 1953-69, in the United States. And as you few years from now if we did U.S. Congress, where he was know, when Kennedy ran in not watch this situation in Chairman, Republican House Mi- 1960, he made a big deal that Hong Kong very carefully. nority and a member of the we weren’t spending enough on Because if they come in there House Appropriations Commit- defense. But then when he and take away the economic tee. Prior to this service, became President of the United rights and the civil rights he was a member of the Wis- States he understood a little and everything else of the Hong consin Senate, 1946-52; Chair- better what it was all about. Kong citizens, in violation man, Wisconsin Legislative And the missile gap that he of the treaty that they nego- Council and served in the U.S. talked about in the campaign tiated with the British, and Navy 1942-46 in the Pacific disappeared, almost overnight. if they continue their large Fleet. And so Ike really did a good military build-up, it does Mr. Laird is a Trustee of job. He was very cognizant present a real problem. the DeWitt and Lila Wallace- of what was needed and neces- Reader’s Digest Funds. He has sary. So I would think that Unger: But back to this been active in some 27 non- you would have to give him question of public awareness, profit organizations which in- the best marks. is it a primary responsibil- clude: The John F. Kennedy ity of the President, primary Center for the Performing Unger: Any Presidents responsibility of the Secre- Arts; The George Washington that you would be willing to tary of Defense, the Congress University; Boys and Girls say were failures in that re- -- to educate the public? Clubs of America; Laird Youth gard? Where are the sources of pub- Leadership Foundation; World lic awareness and the respon- Rehabilitation Fund; Advisory Laird: Well, I think that sibility for that? Board to the U.S. General Ac- I would have to say in the counting Office (GAO); Chair- latter part of the Kennedy Laird: The responsibil- man, President Reagan’s 1987- Administration and during the ity rests with the President 88 Moscow Assessment Review Johnson Administration, they of the United States, as Com- Panel; Chairman, National over committed American forces mander-In-Chief of our mili- Election Commission, 1986. without being willing to pay tary forces and our strategic Mr. Laird has been the re- for it. They felt that the planning as far as foreign and cipient of over 300 awards and thing to do was to fight now international policy is con- honorary degrees, among them and pay later. We robbed from cerned. So it rests with him. are: Presidential Medal of our NATO forces. We didn’t But that does not relieve the Freedom, 1974; Decorated Or- tell the American people what responsibility from the lead- der of Merit - First Class, the war was costing, not only ership of the Congress and the Federal Republic of Germany; in lives, but what it was cost- Committees of the Congress. Commander, National Order Le- ing in material costs during But the media has a responsi- gion of Honor, France; recipi- that particular period. And bility here, too. Sometimes ent of 15th Annual Albert we took down ammunitions all they don’t assume that respon- Lasker Public Service Award; over the world in order to sibility, but they have it. The Harry S. Truman Award for finance the Vietnam operation. But the real buck, as Harry distinguished service in de- I think that was a great mis- Truman says, is on the desk fense, 1985. take. If you’re going to com- of the President of the United He is author of A House mit American men and women to Divided: America’s Strategy Gap, 1962; Editor: The Con- servative Papers, 1964 and combat in any way, you should future challenges, I’d like The United States did not live let the American people know to turn it over to my col- up to its’ commitment to the what the total costs of that leagues, here, for some ques- South Vietnamese. It broke are. But I think it was a tions. the back of Vietnamization, mistake. Hillary Clinton was when they wouldn’t even ap- a young intern when I was Behm: In one of the es- prove $350 million in mili- Chairman of the House Repub- says that you wrote for Read- tary equipment to the Viet- lican Conference. Thirty in- ers Digest, you were reflect- namese during the early part terns worked with me during ing on the Vietnam War, and of the Ford Administration. that period between their Jun- people, whose involvement was I was not in office at the ior and Senior year at necessary and leadership was time, but I probably should Wellesley. She did a very used. One of the things you have been more outspoken. good paper for me on “Fight said was “Looking back to the President Ford asked for it Now, Pay Later.” That paper period between 1969 and 1977 and it was turned down by a was done in conjunction with has never been easy for those big vote in the Congress--due the interns’ work when I was who were centrally involved to public opinion. They were Chairman of the Republican with our defense policy at the fed up with the Vietnam thing. Conference. I used a lot of time.” Has that changed, as But we did really welch on that material in a speech that you’ve come further away from the Paris Peace Accord as far I made, which had to do with it and looking back? To use as the Vietnamese were con- this whole idea of expending Robert McNamara’s words, in cerned. And that just broke assets and borrowing from the retrospect, are there things the back of the Vietnamese future as far as the Vietnam that you would have done dif- military. Within nine months War was concerned. ferently, or are there valu- to a year, they were over- able enough lessons that we’ve whelmed. Unger: I imagine there learned that we’ve changed our were other readers of that policy, now? Behm: I had to smile when paper, too, in influential po- you mentioned Secretary sitions. You touched before Laird: No, I don’t have Kissinger, because I actually on the greatly differing na- the feeling that McNamara has just finished reading a biog- ture of some of the future that I made a lot of mistakes. raphy of Kissinger. Accord- challenges that we have, and I really don’t think that I ing to him and the people that I want to explore that with have any regrets about my time knew him and knew you there, you. in the Pentagon. I have no was a rivalry between the two regrets about my time in the of you. You were the only Laird: Let me make this Congress. I have a very clear person who could challenge point, this was before Hillary conscience about everything Kissinger in the Nixon Admin- met the President. She was a that I did. I never embar- istration in terms of new Republican at that time. rassed the Defense Department ideas and policy alternatives. or anybody in the military Unger: That is not a services, never embarrassed Laird: Well, I had a widely publicized fact. the Congress or country in any good relationship with Henry way. If I have one regret, Kissinger. As a matter of Laird: No, she lived in it’s that the peace accord that fact I was the Editor of The Park Ridge, Illinois, and she was signed in January of 1973, Republican Papers, back in competed for one of these fel- which was negotiated, mainly about 1964 and I had Henry lowships that we had, summer by Secretary Kissinger, had work with me on those. Presi- internships. certain very firm provisions dent Nixon had never met Henry in it. The United States com- Kissinger until he was intro- Unger: Has she submit- mitted itself to replace ma- duced to him up at the Pierre ted any more papers to you terial and military supplies Hotel after the election in recently? to the South Vietnamese. Only 1968, in December. I had sug- replacements. And the Soviet gested him, because I had used Laird: Well, no, but I’ve Union agreed when the Paris Henry Kissinger as a helper talked to her about them, and Accord went into effect, that to me during the platform of she thought her experience was they would only give replace- 1964, when I was Chairman of very good. I’ve often said ments to the North for mili- the Platform Committee, in San that I hope it wasn’t my lead- tary supplies and equipment. Francisco. I asked Governor ership in the Republican Con- The Soviet Union did not abide Rockefeller to loan him to me ference that caused her to by that agreement. They put for about two months, and he become a Democrat. in billions of dollars worth was with me out at San Fran- of equipment into the North, cisco. And so I had known Unger: Well, there are even after the Peace Accord him quite well, and he was a probably some in your party was signed--as a matter of contributor to those papers that hope that it did. But fact, $2-3 billion during that that I edited. We had dis- before we turn to some of these particular time for a year. agreements. I mean, I had a major disagreement with him looking down there and he saw As far as being encouraged, I on bombing Cambodia. I had all of these freighters. You was encouraged more by Speaker no objection to bombing the just can’t keep things like Rayburn than I was by the Re- sanctuaries, which were across that secret. I don’t want to publican House leadership at the border in Cambodia. But invade Vietnam all over again. that time, Joe Martin and I didn’t want to keep it se- I wouldn’t mind debating with Charlie Halleck. He was more cret, because there were Henry on that, because he’ll helpful to me than they were 12,000 people who would know probably say he’s right and in many respects. I don’t about those bombing raids over I’ll still say I was right, think that exists over there there, and you just can’t have and I think it was proven that right now. secrets like that. And I could I was right. When the thing have gotten complete support leaked out, it made such a Unger: For the vast ma- in the Congress for that sanc- hell, Kent State! We had all jority of our readers, the tuary bombing It wouldn’t kinds of demonstrations all people “out have been such a shock to the over the country. American people to then call There are twelve it secret bombing and all that Unger: But when you talk sort of stuff, when it was about it, it sounds like the wars going on in broken in the press by The bi-partisanship that the world today. New York Times. And that everyone’s talking about now . . caused a great problem. I in Congress, and between the was right. Henry, Bill legislative and executive there,” outside of the Rogers, and the President were branches. How do you think beltway, their reports and wrong. I had my day in court is the best way to reach that their impressions about how over there. They turned me type of bi-partisanship? I Washington operates obviously down. That’s why they thought mean, what steps can people come from the media. Cur- I’d leaked the story, and I take to reach those agree- rently, I’ve been struck by hadn’t leaked the story about ments? Or is it possible? the willingness of public fig- that bombing. But I remember ures to go on record criti- as I was playing golf, and Laird: I think it’s pos- cally here. For example, Henry calls me up and used a sible. But you’ve got to have there’s a piece in The Wash- little language, “What the a respect for one another up ington Post recently, where hell did you leak that story there, a comity that doesn’t Hillary Clinton bemoans the for?” And I said “Well, Henry, exist right now. It’s just a influence of the right-wing you are crazy. I’m playing shame. You know, I was brought media, the conservative me- golf” and I hung up. But we up by Speaker Rayburn. And dia character assassination had differences. And that was it was always the House that and personal conspiracies a major difference. And I was important. The House of aimed at her and others. The think that I was proven to be Representatives, the people’s Administration just released right. body. I spent many hours vis- a multi-hundred page report iting with him and I remember dealing with an information Unger: I don’t think when he called me in one time, conspiracy by the conserva- Henry tells the story quite he said, “Melvin I heard your tive media organizations. the same way. speech today, and it was Now, on the other hand, Re- great, you’re coming along publicans such as Speaker Laird: No, he does. fine.” He took me down the Gingrich and others have shown hall and said, "I want you to no reticence in condemning the Unger: In terms of his have this dining room, right left-wing media. Today the assessment, though, as to who over in the Capitol.” A lot media has so many damn “wings” was right and wrong. of the Democrats probably that I’m interested in what thought that was strange that your own impressions have Laird: No, but he still he did that and assigned it. been. Are you satisfied with feels he was right, because I had the dining room right the way in which “inside the he felt that it would upset off the members’ dining room, beltway” is reported “outside Sianook at that particular and it was my own. You know, the beltway?” Is it reported time. And I don’t think that things like that aren’t done relatively objectively, com- you can make a judgement like too much over there anymore. prehensively, reasonably or that. If you’re going to do I don’t think the Speaker is not? it and 12,000 people know looking out for young Demo- about it, I don’t care -- it’s crats coming up or young Re- Laird: Well, I think a going to get to Sianook. You publicans coming up. Maybe Republican does have to work know how The New York Times he’s watching them. But you’ve a little harder with the me- found out about it? A re- got to be willing to look at dia, than a Democrat. Seri- porter from The London Times all of these young people over ously, if you look at all the was flying from Thailand over there that are coming along statistics, you notice that to Saigon. And he was just as new members of Congress. of the media the vast major- ity of them are members of going to be in a position to real shift, here, in terms of the Democratic Party and quite have to depend somewhat on our perspectives away from liberally inclined. So, a foreign supplies as far as cosmic policy issues. I’d Republican does have to work energy is concerned. It’s un- like you to reflect upon some very hard with them. I spent fortunate, but our conserva- of the other projects you have a lot of time with the press tion efforts have not proved been deeply involved in after and I really cannot fault the successful. The speed limit and during public service. press in any way on anything restrictions and the prices They represent to me a kind they’ve ever said or done as have not regulated and caused of hands-on involvement, but far as I’m concerned. But people to conserve. In fact in a totally different kind you have to be honest with we’re becoming more and more of approach. The first one them all the time. If you dependent upon foreign energy. I’d like you to talk about is make a mistake you’ve got to We’re a long ways away from the Laird Youth Leadership let them know immediately. I electric cars and from atomic Day, part of the Laird Lead- made a couple of mistakes but power as far as mobility is ership Foundation -- what that I let them know. I think they concerned. So, I’m not too project involves, what your trusted me because I worked optimistic that we’re going thinking was behind setting at it, and did it regularly. to become energy independent it up and maybe some of the The night before I left the in the United States anytime kinds of responses you’ve got- Pentagon the press had a party in the near future. ten. for me and they gave me a big National League Football, and Danzis: How do you as- Laird: Well, the project it was signed by all of them, sess the defense concerns that developed some years ago when and it said, “Laird 212, Press the U.S. has as a country I was in the Congress. There 0.” But they were doing it largely dependent upon poten- were a lot of young people in a fun way. Like Sarah tially unfriendly energy sup- helping me in my campaigns and McClendon. Sarah was a great pliers? interested in politics. One gal, and she’s always kind of of them was David Obey, who raising cain with this or that. Laird: It’s one of the now is in the Congress and Once she was having trouble problems we have to take into has my particular seat. Now getting Lyndon Johnson’s at- consideration as far as our he was handing out shopping tention. I was Chairman of whole foreign policy and our bags “Laird for Congress” all the House Republicans so I military strategy is con- over the streets of Wausau. presented her at the Ladies’ cerned. The American people And I was a Republican, and Press meeting, a beautiful, have made the decision through he’s a Democrat, but he was silver whistle, that she could their gas tanks that they are doing that as a young high use at press conferences. So not willing to cut back sub- school student. I also got you have to have a little fun stantially. Now that the idea that it would be good with them and Republicans have if we could have two students to work a little harder, too. . . .people from the Senior and two from the Junior classes selected Unger: Oh yes, I was don't pay very in each of the high schools just wondering, as you were much attention in the district to come to- speaking, what the score would to those wars. gether and discuss some of the have been on Lyndon Johnson’s major topics facing the coun- football? puts a tremendous responsi- try. The Library of Congress bility on our government to did a lot of work for me and Laird: I won’t specu- see that those supplies are they were very helpful in pre- late on that. forthcoming in the future. paring the work papers these That’s why we’re concerned in students would get. Then we’d Danzis: The 1997-1998 the Middle East right now. We have work sessions at the Uni- high school debate topic Prob- got concerned in Iraq, when versity of Wisconsin at lem Area deals with renewable Iraq went into Kuwait, because Steven’s Point. I’d always energy: How can the United it affected the vital inter- bring out some unusual leader States best reduce its fossil ests of the United States. In to sort of keynote it and we’d fuel consumption? Given your that particular war, there was have eight to twelve resource experience defending the vi- not the loss of life that is leaders in addition to that. tal interests of the U.S. and going on in some other wars It turned out to be a very as a member of the Board of right now, today. But the worthwhile program because Directors of Phillips Petro- national security interests of these young people would go leum, what is your perspec- the United States came into back and speak to their Ro- tive on America’s dependence play, because we are not en- tary clubs, their local com- on foreign energy suppliers? ergy independent. munity clubs; they’d have a high school assembly and give Laird: Well, I think the Unger: I want to make a a report on their day’s ac- American people are always tivities. They’d go to their civics classes and government And so I do honor my father, of course, involves outstand- classes and give reports. It and each of the scholarships ing high school coaches and evolved into a very popular makes reference to my father. teachers and students all program, so even when I be- around the country. And it came Secretary of Defense, I Unger: Do you find that seems to me that many of our couldn’t stop it. I can’t your experience in a program constituencies are the same stop it, now. It’s still go- such as this is relatively in that regard. ing forward. typical of how many public leaders are willing to go back Laird: Some of these Unger: Right up until with this kind of hands-on, young people are better speak- today. individual contact, and con- ers than they were when I was tinue it once the political going to high school there in Laird: Yes, we’re going element is totally removed? Marshfield High School. I was to have one on April 27th of As you said, it’s gotten a very active in oratory and ex- this year. In addition to life of its own, now, really. temporaneous speaking and de- that we have this scholarship bate. But I tell you, these program where grants are given Laird: Once you get it young people today are sharp. to worthy students who have started, there is no way you They get up there prepared. shown some degree of special can really stop. I’ve got it interest and special ability, set up now so it’ll continue Unger: Often embarrass- to develop leadership, whether forever. And I’ve endowed the ingly so. it be political or in chemis- program at the university sub- try, or in any other field of stantially with well over a Laird: Yes, L.Y.L.D. is activity. But it’s to award million dollars pledged. It a great program. But it just them for their leadership takes on kind of a life of is in Wisconsin in my old area qualities. We’ve given well its own and people are asking there. The area is a big one over 500 of those scholar- when’s the next one. Now I’ve including the Green Bay High ships, and it’s been a very brought good people out there. Schools and Appleton, Wausau, worthwhile program. I started I’ve had everybody from John and all the way up to the north it by putting all my hono- Gardner to Henry Kissinger to with 550,000 people, it’s rariums, if I got an hono- President Ford. Larry about 240 by 220 miles. They rarium for speaking anyplace, Eagleburger comes almost ev- don’t have access to a lot of in the fund. I received the ery time, because Larry was things that other people do. Lasker Award for medical and born in Stevens Point, Wis- They’ve got the Green Bay health research. I got consin, and in my first cam- Packers, though! $25,000 for that, and I put paign for Congress, his mother it in there. So I was able to helped me and worked hard for Behm: The second project kind of feed that fund, and me in Portage County while I wanted you to reflect upon it’s worked out very well. Larry was crawling around on was your very longstanding re- the floor as a little baby. lationship with the Marshfield Unger: Let me pick up I talked to him the day be- Clinic, and especially the on that, though. The program fore yesterday. He’s all ban- Laird Center that is going to itself, Laird Youth Leader- daged up pretty bad, leg and be established. ship Days, is within the over- knee, had a back operation and all ambient of the Laird Foun- he still said, "I’m coming to Laird: I got involved dation, which is a foundation, the Laird Youth Leadership." with the Marshfield Clinic as I understand it, that you We have Shirley Abramson, very early. In 1922, my fa- established in memory of your who’s quite an outstanding ther and mother moved to father? liberal thinker in our state Marshfield. I was just a baby and now she’s the Chief Jus- at the time and so my records Laird: Well, the foun- tice of our Supreme Court in as a patient there go back to dation wasn’t established in Wisconsin. She has never the year I was born. But then memory of my father. The missed a meeting. We also I got involved with the clinic scholarships are in memory of have the Governor there too, after I came back from the my father. But, true, my fa- you know, and it’s gotten to Navy. I had met a doctor, ther was very important to me. be quite a nice thing. These Stephan Epstein, who had come He gave me the greatest in- young people come in loaded over as a refugee from Ger- heritance anybody could pos- for bear. many, and my mother and fa- sibly pass on, and that was a ther had gotten very close to good, respected name in cen- Unger: We’re familiar them, because they talked in tral and northern Wisconsin with that from the NFL. I English. So they were part and throughout our state. He was especially anxious to get of the community, and he was was a very well respected per- your perspective on this pro- outstanding, one of the very son. He was a Presbyterian gram. Because it touches very renowned Dermatologists. And minister in Marshfield. familiar strains with the Na- of course, he started to talk That’s where he met my mom. tional Forensic League, which, to me all the time about how it’s important that as a young ship over the years. He be- Board, she was on the Board state senator I get involved came my Secretary of the Army, of Regents at the University in this health business. And first came out and was my As- of Wisconsin, and she was the so I put in the first cash sistant Secretary of Defense second woman ever to be ap- sickness disability legisla- for Administration. He was pointed. tion in the Wisconsin legis- President of Sentry Insurance lature. And then he got me Company up there in my par- Unger: We’re talking interested in medical re- ticular area of the country personally here. Because as search. And in my first year at one time. He also was I say, the policy input is out here in Congress, I got Chairman of the Board of Eq- very exciting to our readers, the National Institutes of uitable Insurance Company. He but every time I talk to the Health interested in the came to me and suggested that coaches, every time I talk to Marshfield Clinic, and the this is something that he would the students about these up- first grant was made to look like to do and he has taken coming conversation pieces, into the question of Farmer’s over the responsibility of they say please make every Lung Disease. And this is raising all the money. effort to get for us a sense rather an unusual clinic, be- They’re way over budget -- of the person behind the cause you have all the records they’ve made their budget or title. They are interested from generations back, going are exceeding it in a very in knowing the people who are all the way back four or five nice way. in Washington, not just the generations. And so it was a titles who are in Washington. great place, there’s no place Unger: When you say over And one that I know that you’d like it. People are in and budget, you meant a surplus? be willing to at least talk out at Mayo’s. But these with us was your own family people in that general area, Laird: Surplus, yes! experience with your wife Bar- they’re all inhabitants of a They’ve raised more than they bara and her reaction to the great area for conducting had set out to. I have to Washington experience, which medical research. Because give him some credit for con- I know in many respects was there’s just one medical fa- vincing me to do it. I didn’t very unfavorable. cility serving all these think it was a very good idea. people. And so that’s how I But he’s proven to be quite Laird: It was very un- got involved with it, and I right. He had planned a train favorable. She enjoyed the have to give Dr. Epstein the trip, started down in Milwau- years in Congress. She credit. I came out here, and kee and went all the way thought that was fine. But as soon as HEW was set up, through Wisconsin: Oshkosh, she got very fed up with the the Department under the first Stevens Point, Wisconsin Rap- years as Secretary of Defense. term of Eisenhower, I wanted ids -- had an eight car train Because there were unfortu- to go on that committee. trip, and different people nate things that happened dur- That’s how I got involved. would get on the train from ing that period. People com- one city to the next and then ing up to your home and uri- Behm: We’ve seen pic- buses would take them back. nating on your porch and your tures of the new facility, of And it was a big fundraiser steps and your front door. the Laird Center, itself. I to get people involved. I There were unpleasant things was wondering if you would thought it was a crazy idea. in that connection; there were talk to us a little about why But he was right and it turned a lot of things that were re- did you choose to lend your out to be a great thing. We quired of her that she really name to this project? Be- had a couple of outstanding didn’t appreciate. She was cause I know you’re very ju- people with us, Larry was very active in the Red Cross dicious in terms of the use there, again, and of course, and she was great in that. of your name to such a front- Jerry Ford’s coming out to She was going to the disas- on public service project. dedicate the thing. ters and whether it was Wilkes-Barre or whether it was Laird: Well, you know, Unger: You’re providing down in the Gulf in Missis- I have a real concern about what I’m anxious to get for sippi, she was always around that area. They were awfully the readers, that is the source the disasters. But she didn’t good to me and to my family of the personal linkage -- appreciate the work I had at over the years. I love the what the personal commitment the Department of Defense be- area. Bob Froehlke, was a is that is involved there. cause there wasn’t a night boyhood friend -- we went to that something didn’t go high school and to grade Laird: Well, you know, wrong. Because of the time school together. His wife and there’s a personal commitment. difference between Vietnam and I were great friends, even My grandfather was first Washington, DC, that was not started out in Sunday School President of the Library a pleasant experience. I together when they were about Board, my mother was Presi- think she enjoyed the years four or five years old, and dent of the School Board, in Congress, but I don’t think we have developed a friend- President of the Library "The job of Sec- shouldn’t say, and he gets a reputable ethical standard or little carried away. I’ve a high ethical standard in our retary of De- seen him get carried away once government? fense is a or twice. But you just do loser.". . . not pay much attention to that. Laird: Well, I think that I noticed the story in the the whole Watergate thing was Recurring fail- paper today has to do with really a disaster as far as ures of popular Brookings. I’m sure that no our country was concerned! consensus over one broke into Brookings. But And it was not handled prop- he [Nixon] was very upset about erly by the President of the the past 35 the Pentagon papers being United States. I know the years have pro- leaked. And, of course, I President of the United States duced boom and had custody of all those pa- didn’t know about the break- pers. They were turned over in in advance. But he had bust cycles of to me by Clark Clifford. Clark told me that he had done noth- defense spend- Clifford didn’t realize what ing to cover it up. Then my ing. was in them but McNamara knew General Counsel, who went over what was in them. And from to the White House at the time she enjoyed the years in the my standpoint, I was glad to that I did, Fred Buzhardt, Executive Branch. have the Pentagon papers came to me and informed me in leaked. May or June of 1973, that the Unger: Do you think that tapes existed, and he’d lis- was a function simply of the Unger: So now we know tened to them and that the immense responsibilities that who the leaker was. President was involved with you had as an individual, or the cover-up. And he should is that typical of the in- Laird: No, I was not not have lied about that. If ability, almost the conflict, the leaker! But the day that he would have fired those that develops in a family re- the Pentagon papers appeared people and had got rid of them lationship within any admin- in The New York Times, I was and come clean on the day it istration with any major on Face The Nation, and I was happened, there wouldn’t have player? all prepared to have questions been a Watergate. But he chose about it. And I didn’t get to protect certain people, and Laird: Barbara passed one question about the Penta- didn’t tell the truth to me away about eight years ago. gon papers, and then they were and to others. That’s a mis- There was a tough last year all over The New York Times take. If you start getting down there. She was down at that particular Sunday. When caught up in lies, I don’t North Carolina at the Duke you’re on a show like that, care whether it’s government Medical facility, and she you can’t plant the questions, or business or anyplace else, slipped very badly for a while. but I was surprised the press it just is not acceptable. You She had cancer. My daughter, didn’t ask me a single ques- just get yourself in a lot of Allison, did a tremendous job tion about them. Because from trouble. And it just multi- of taking care of her. It my standpoint as Secretary of plies day in and day out. was a difficult period. Defense, it was helpful to me That’s true in business, too. to have all that material out. I’ve found that in business, Unger: Before coming Because those decisions had as well. As you know, I went down here, we have had peri- been made prior to the time I on the Phillips Petroleum odic releasings of the Nixon was there, and I didn’t have Board. I was appointed by a tapes headlined today. Nixon to take responsibility for Federal judge, because discussed blackmail of LBJ them. So it was good to have Phillips Petroleum had vio- over the war in Vietnam, the those out. There were only lated campaign laws. They’d possible break-in in the two or three things in the taken some money and given it Brookings Institution to get papers that breached real se- as a contribution to Senator these damn files and so forth. curity, and that had to do Kerr who was the Democratic I don’t know if it breaches with some information that you Chairman of the Senate Cam- any confidences or whatever - could tell we had broken some paign Committee, and to the - did you ever have any dis- codes. Nixon campaign, back in 1958. cussions apropos any of these There was a class action suit kinds of behind the scenes im- Unger: The question of brought against the corpora- pressions with President the break-in, the whole ques- tion because that money had Nixon, and taped discussions? tion now is entitled come from India through Swit- Watergate; but it doesn’t reso- zerland, and at that time you Laird: Well, you know, nate very definitely, I think, could contribute cash. But once in a while the President with the public. Are there it was not a proper use of has a bad day. And he prob- different ethical standards shareholder’s money. And so ably says some things that he today, or do you think we’ve the Federal judge, as part of had a distinct relatively dis- the settlement, decided to appoint an outside board. I of meeting people and getting we’d be able to control them mean, I think that’s the prob- to where you are today? better. But that just hasn’t lem you have over there now, worked. I mean, it didn’t is the problem you had with Laird: Well, I started work in this last campaign, Newt Gingrich, it’s the prob- out campaigning very early in I’ll tell you that. Although lem you have with the Presi- the 1930’s, and got involved the Presidential Election Cam- dent and with Mrs. Clinton, in campaigning for my father. paign was financed by the tax- now. They haven’t been forth- He was running for the state payers, there were many side- right, they haven’t been Senate at that time, and I shows going on around in the truthful on certain things. was a young person in high Presidential campaign, and And that just causes you lots school, and I got very much that’s got to stop. of problems. involved in the 30s in the campaign. I got more involved Danzis: At one time you Unger: And the people’s than my dad did. As a matter recommended raising the maxi- response to the question, what of fact, I made more speeches, mum contribution from $1,000 is the ethical level in Wash- and I barnstormed all over, to $2,500. Is that still a ington, has shown a consis- trying to get him elected. The reform you support? tent decline in their assess- whole idea of this Laird Youth ment. The number of people Leadership thing that I’ve Laird: I think that’s willing to answer, oh, they’re tried to develop there in cen- all right. I don’t have any just a bunch of crooks up tral and northern Wisconsin problem with that. But I think there, has increased. Do you is to get people involved. To you have to have some cam- think, in fact, are the Ameri- get young people involved, get paign limitations, on over- can people onto something? them an appreciation of gov- all spending. And I think Has there been a decline or ernment and how, if we’re go- you’re going to have to have not? ing to succeed in this coun- some public financing of cam- try, we’ve got to have good paigns in order to get agree- Laird: No, I don’t think young people involved. And ment with the candidates. they’re onto anything, but I’m there are great opportunities Because the way the Supreme glad that they’re concerned for young people in politics. Court rules now that you can’t about it. And that’s very limit the expenditures of any- important. Some of our po- Danzis: You mentioned one running for office is re- litical people have tried to young people, and you were ally unfair to a lot of can- cover up too much sometimes. only 24 when you first won didates. In order to get And I think that that’s led your State Senate seat, right? around the Supreme Court rul- to a distrust. Here you go ing, you’re going to have to out and ask mothers and fa- Laird: I was either 23 go to some sort of federal thers of high school kids or 24, I can’t remember ex- financing. Once a man or a whether they want their chil- actly. I guess I must have woman accepts that, then cer- dren to go into politics, and been about 24. tain restraints can be placed it’s almost unanimous, NO! And upon them. I think there has that’s a sad commentary, as Danzis: That’s incred- to be greater restraints put far as our country is con- ible. upon the Presidential candi- cerned. And we’re headed for As co-Chairman of the Com- dates if they accept that Fed- serious trouble if we can’t mission on National Elections, eral financing, now, than get that changed. you concluded that the elec- there have been in this last tion process during the 1980s campaign. This was BAD in Danzis: A couple of was not too long, it was not this last campaign. And I times President Nixon re- too costly or messy, and the don’t think we anticipated at marked, there goes the most truth of the matter is, the the time when we wrote that devious man in government. He process worked pretty well. report that the Presidential said it, I guess, to Henry Has your reaction to the elec- funding of the taxpayer’s Kissinger in regard to you. tion process changed in the money wouldn’t work. But it And then in one other article 1990s? didn’t work. it said that he’s not devi- ous, but he’s playing the game Laird: Yes, it’s gotten Unger: Do you think that at a different level. And I too expensive. We’re spend- America is going to continue hear you talk about friends ing too much money and we’ve to remain a country of just and a few good people like got to put some reforms in. two major political parties? Elizabeth Dole, or the people It’s just gotten out of hand. that you mentioned from ad- We thought that when we were Laird: I hope so, be- ministrations, and people that writing that report that we cause I think it’s very im- you called good friends are were entering the new era, be- portant that we put all the actually very powerful people cause we were going to have emphasis we can on encourag- that have been around. How Federal contributions to the ing two major political par- did you start off on this track Presidential campaigns and ties. I think we should en- courage that. I think it would or you get the abortionist’s, has become much more politi- be a disaster if we got to or you get all these other cal, much less personally genu- the situation they have in people on these crazy single ine? Is there an element to- France and Italy and some of issues, that really hurt poli- day of harshness, of politics the other democratic coun- tics, and really take away in virtually everything that tries, where there is really from a focus on the real is- you would say maybe did not no party responsibility de- sues facing the country. And exist twenty years ago. Or veloped anymore at all. I wouldn’t want all those can- at least, is the situation They’re all just kind of didates in there. getting worse? floating around and no real leadership that Unger: Are you satis- Laird: Well, I think it’s fied that we have struck some getting worse because there I really don't objective criteria? What stan- are so many people who are dards, what thresholds, would only interested in politics think that I you set for inclusion in the for just one issue. We’ve have any regrets Presidential debate? got a lot of one issue people about my time in and the only thing they think Laird: Yes, we have some about in government is this the Pentagon. I standards that we set up in particular issue or that par- have no regrets our Committee Report for ticular issue, and they are about my time in that. We got into a lot of unwilling to look at the broad difficulty with the League of scope of the problems facing Congress. I Women Voters at that particu- our country, which are really, have a very lar time, because they were in many cases, much more im- clear conscience of the opinion that everyone portant than the one issue should be included. And that’s that they’re interested in. about everything one of the reasons that we And I think it has affected that were able to get agreement with the manner in which politi- I did. the Democratic and the Repub- cians sometimes treat one an- lican party to go forward with other. I don’t think it’s as can be expressed. I think this -- we could never have much fun in the Congress as the British have done it a gotten agreement, and never it used to be. We used to little differently and they put this in concrete if we have an enjoyable time. It have gone into three parties would have encouraged all of was fun for our families, we at some times. It’s still these other people to get in- had great relationships, Demo- very difficult to do that in volved in this debate process. crats and Republicans alike. Great Britain, and I think we And I don’t think that would There isn’t as much of that should encourage trying to get be a good idea at all. as there should be, now. everybody involved in two ma- jor parties, because it’s bet- Unger: One final ques- Unger: One question that ter to fix responsibility that tion that I’d like to ask in I’m always asked to ask. You way. conjunction with the campaign served for and electoral process, touches Unger: At least at the very heavily on a lot of our Giving away level of Presidential poli- constituents. Our members in money is not as tics, here, do you think that the NFL, are very actively the elections were helped or involved, even at the high easy as some hurt in ‘92 and ‘96 -- in ‘92 school level, in politics, people think! by the inclusion of Ross Perot much like some of the experi- in the Presidential debates, ence that you cited before. nine terms in the House of and exclusion in 1996. Would President Clinton, in his in- Representatives plus a huge you have supported both of augural address, in some of number of other career ap- those decisions, either of the recent interviews that pointments. I’d just like to them, neither of them -- what? he’s given, says, and I’m quot- get your reaction: Is there ing him again, that “one of a role for institutional term Laird: I think I would the great challenges of lead- limits on the length of ser- have been for excluding Ross ership today, and maybe in any vice in the Congress? Perot in this debate, yes. I democracy, but certainly in really think he wouldn’t have ours, is learning to get the Laird: No. I think added much to the debate. All poison out of your system.” that’s a great mistake. the polling data showed that And he’s talking about the he wasn’t a major candidate, tone of politics, which has Unger: That’s a pretty and you just don’t want ev- arisen here. At the level of clear answer. erybody to get in there and government, and at the level I’m going to quote from a you get the right-to-lifer’s just of public discourse, do recent golf commercial that I you think that the entire tone saw, because it relates nicely in the area we’re talking Unger: There was a time . . . seeing about. Lee Trevino is doing when there wasn’t television? this piece, and I was really that struck by it. He’s talking Laird: Sure, back when it's properly about in his own very nice this discipline was taking used is a great style, guys on the Senior place. But we did have cer- Tour, they’re driving it 320, tain rules about reading and responsibility. 330, 350 yards! Why? Well, quiet time. I’m not sure it’s this Titanium driver. there’s much of that anymore. the Boys and Girls Clubs, the These guys are old. How do I don’t know. It bothers me. YMCA, to the Boy Scouts, the you think we’re doing it, Girl Scouts, the Campfire wheat germ or something? It’s Unger: Well, you touch Girls. We’re big in the in- technology! I’m using the on something that national ner cities. We’re trying to commercial as a set up, in surveys reflect, and I know do what we can in this area. terms of your reaction, espe- our own constituents reflect, And we meet on a regular ba- cially, to the immense growth and that is the perception of sis. And it’s a grave re- of technology in all of our a major decline in family val- sponsibility. Giving away areas. How do you see that ues in our society -- the re- money is not as easy as some as coming down in terms of sponsibility of the family, people think! Giving away our future capabilities? Are the role of the family, the money and seeing that it’s we in a position to appreci- influence of the family. Is properly used is a great re- ate what the 10 years, 20 that your sense, too? Are sponsibility. And with these years, 30 years from now, the families fulfilling the kinds trusts and with these funds entire content of society is of roles that they used to, in all, we’ve given away 5% going to look like? and that we’re going to have of the value of the funds and to rely upon them in the fu- trusts each year, and it’s not Laird: It’s very diffi- ture for? an easy responsibility. I hope cult, you really can’t give a we’re doing the right thing. snap answer to that, because Laird: I wish I could We’re trying to encourage I’m not sure how it’s going say that they are. I think these things. Whether we are to evolve. I’m concerned there is a movement on to come or not, time will tell. about it. I’m concerned about back to that, because the fam- people not reading as much as ily is so important. I think Unger: I can see a lot they should. They want to be the President is trying to em- of people who will be reading spoon fed everything now, and phasize that, Senator Dole this, say giving away money all of the things that are tried to do that in his cam- is not a real responsibility going on bother me. I’m not paign. I’m still hopeful that -- oh sure, I’d like a crack sure. Maybe we’re going to we can increase the responsi- at it. get too much information fed bility that is the family’s, In terms of that kind of to us and not have enough time and belongs to the family, and discussion, one of the issues to think about it. belongs to the schools. It that I know we wanted to just belongs to the teachers and touch on was the balance, the Unger: Is the responsi- the coaches and it certainly on-going evolutionary balance bility for monitoring, for is a responsibility of our of the role of responsibility correction, primarily one of churches, too. But education for the Federal government, family, of local gov-ernment, is going to have to play a for local government, and for of national government? Where major role in that. I serve private concerns. I’m inter- is the responsibility? on the Trustees of the DeWitt ested to know whether you’re and Lila Wallace Funds, and satisfied that we’re moving Laird: I think it has we also have these seven trusts in good directions or bad di- to be at home, in the schools, -- because when the Wallaces rections about decentralizing and the churches. But I think passed away, they had no chil- the government, of less re- it has to be pretty much at dren. And the Reader’s Di- sponsibility for the govern- home. I remember when I could gest stock that they owned is ment, or is it a mistake? never have breakfast at home set up in these seven trusts Given the complexity of the until I made my bed. And one and these two funds in which challenges we’re confronting. time I told my mother I had I serve as a Trustee. And we made my bed, when I hadn’t, have $5 billion dollars in Laird: I think the move and I really got severely dis- that. They gave away every- to get the government shifted ciplined for lying. And it thing. And we are trying to as close to the people as pos- was a good experience. We do what we can with the Lila sible is going to be helpful. didn’t have television then, Wallace and the DeWitt Wallace You want to get people in- the only thing I had was a Trusts to encourage young volved. You want to get fami- little crystal radio that we people. We’re the biggest lies involved. You want to could kind of tune in. contributors to get people involved locally. And I think we’re moving in the right direction on that. changes that may take place the leadership to this, and I’m encouraged by that. Very in some of these areas. I’d it has to come from the Presi- much encouraged by that. like to cite a couple of his dent, and the President then comments there and get your has to depend on his Secre- Unger: Is this a move- reactions to them, as to tary of State and Secretary ment that cuts across party whether you might agree or of Defense to do it. But philosophy? disagree, because they touch they’re so busy taking care very heavily upon your areas of the daily responsibilities, Laird: Yes, I think it of responsibility. He says, that they have not really ad- is. All you have to do is “the new Clinton Team has no dressed this. They are ad- look at the President’s Inau- more urgent a task than to dressing it now. The article gural Address. That Inaugu- devise a response to an ex- you talked about that Chuck ral Address could have been plosion in the Gulf or an up- Robb wrote is something that given by any one of the last heaval in Saudi Arabia.” Do is to the forefront right now, Republican candidates or Re- you see those as the kind of I hope. And I hope that the publican Presidents-elect. major problems that he does? President will recognize this. I don’t think that it has been Unger: There were a lot Laird: Oh, that’s a ma- properly addressed during the of Democrats on the Hill say- jor problem, there’s no ques- last decade. ing the same thing. I don’t tion about that. It all goes think they’re saying it with back to your energy question. Unger: And in that con- the degree of enthusiasm that And people have voted that way junction, in terms of these you are, but -- through their gas tanks. kinds of predictions, one of your former colleagues, Caspar Laird: Well, you know, Unger: Are you satis- Wineberger, Secretary of De- there are a lot of things that fied with the directions that fense for Reagan, has pub- trouble you. But I’m really, we have thus far evolved, in lished a new book on the next at 75, still encouraged by terms of our thinking that war. And I haven’t read the where we’re going and what we way? whole book, but I did read can do. I kind of like this the summary piece in USA To- particular ring, here. This Laird: No, that goes back day, and the big headline is, is a Stanley Cup ring. And to the early part of our dis- “Can the U.S. Really Win the I’ll tell you, there was great cussion. I think that we have Next War?” Here are the con- teamwork that went into that. not laid out a strategic for- clusions of the author. They And last night, the Avalanche eign policy or a military plan set out a number of prospec- played Philadelphia, as you as far as the responsibili- tive scenarios in the Persian probably know, they beat ties we will assume in the Gulf, in North Korea, the Ja- Philadelphia, and they con- world, and what can be ex- pan area, with Moscow, in tinue to win. pected of us and what we have Mexico. And their conclusion And it all begins with to do to meet those expecta- is this -- they say gone are commitment. That’s what I kept tions. We’re kind of living the days when America could telling those guys. You see, out of our back pocket right rely on geographical distances it all begins with commitment. now. to buy time until we could That’s not a bad thing to keep mobilize. Ballistic missiles in mind. And I think a lot of Unger: It strikes me, and weapons of mass destruc- people have to get committed listening to you talk about a tion have not only compressed to helping this country into subject like this, it seems geographical distances, but making it a better place in so obvious to say we are liv- may also prevent U.S. forces which to live. ing in this way, we have not from ever reaching a battle- developed the proper strate- field. The next war could be Unger: To close the in- gic role. Is this just a case, over by the time America is terview, I’d like to touch in your sense, of inadequacy fully mobilized. They say the upon a few areas, almost where of the talent of the people scenarios they’re discussing we started, and that goes back at the top of our government, here are fiction for now; but to the future of our country is it because they are too to be ready for the next war, and some of your perspectives heavily influenced by poli- we need to halt troop reduc- on what we are going to see tics, is it an unwillingness tions. We need to halt the in the future of war-related to face hard decisions? So downsizing of our fleet. Fund- global areas. Henry often, the proper course of ing for missile defense and Kissinger, in the most recent conduct seems relatively clear stealth technology research issue of Newsweek, published but the one thing that is needs to be restored and in- an article with a very fit- equally clear is we’re not do- creased. These funding com- ting title, in terms of his ing it. mitments will not only help speculations. He called it a to maintain our technology “World We Have Not Known” in Laird: Well, you’re prob- edge, but they are essential terms of the entire dramatic ably right. We’re not giving to ensure that we continue to recruit personnel to fight and have some perspective your- and wish him every success. to win the next war. Is that self about the qualities of I do know the leaders of Great your perspective? When you the leaders in the other ma- Britain, and Germany. One of look at the levels of the de- jor countries that we are en- my closest friends was a former fense budget year after year countering. Do you think that Chancellor, Helmut Schmidt, after year, would you shake who is still there and I con- your head in terms of yes, no I was very ac- tact on a regular basis. And -- what would be your per- I’ve got great respect and ad- spective on our size, in fi- tive in oratory miration for the men and the nancial perspective, and a and extemporane- women that are involved. But human perspective. ous speaking and I just can’t give you a net assessment on everyone that’s Laird: Well, I think we debate. . . . in office right now. have to be willing to devote these young a sufficient portion of our people today are Unger: I know when I’ve Gross National Product to mili- conducted these kinds of con- tary activities and to defense sharp. They get versations, that the favor- spending. But you can’t do up there pre- ite tag line that I have with everything. And you have to pared. individuals of your kind of be very careful in the way talent is, well, I just have these assets are allocated. China, Germany, France, the one more question. That goes An article that says the war Soviet Union, are as well led on for about an hour and a will be over before it gets today as they were twenty half. But I do just have one started, that’s assuming that years ago, thirty years ago? more final question in this you’re going to use a lot of As responsibly led, that is. area, because I do want to nuclear weapons. I’m cer- get your reaction on it. To- tainly for keeping up research Laird: That’s pretty day, General George Lee But- in that area. But I can’t hard to make an assessment on ler, published in the Wash- believe that we can’t go for- that. I think we’re very ington Post what he called the ward to establish a complete fortunate in the leadership “General’s Bomb Shell,” which shield. Certainly, there that we have in the free world was his own proposal for phas- should be efforts made to be today, and I think that we’re ing out the U.S. nuclear ar- able to intercept single mis- working pretty well together. senal. He says to bend every sile firings that some crazy I think that we’ve got to get effort within his power and nut might try. But when you to the point where we rely authority to promote the con- read over that particular ar- more upon NATO for some of ditions and attitudes that ticle the way you read it to these things, and working might someday free mankind me just now, that’s an invi- through multinational organi- from the scourge of nuclear tation to a blank check -- zations. You know, I started weapons. And I won’t bore and you can’t have a blank out the Defense meetings with you with all of the specific check as far as the debt spend- Japan. I was the first Sec- details, but he does make out ing or national security retary of Defense ever to go a case. spending in this year as we over there, and you’ll see go into the next century. their Nakasone, who was the Laird: He’s had a very You’ve got to be very careful Defense Minister at that time, good dream. in how you parcel out those he later became the Prime Min- assets. Because the American ister, on some of these pic- Unger: And that’s what people have got to be assured tures on the walls, here. We I’d like to get your reaction that we’re doing right. And had a hard time getting the to. Is it just a dream? that hasn’t been made as clear Japanese to come up with their as it should. But I mean, funding to pay for the troops Laird: It’s a wonderful just to endorse all of those that are in Japan. They want dream. But we’re a long way things, you want to be for the troops there, they really from there. And the United adequate spending in that do want the troops, they want States could do that unilat- area, but if you endorse all that security. And they want erally at this time, or start those things, you’d be giving the shield. But they didn’t moving unilaterally at that the Defense Department a blank want to pay for them. We fi- time. We can reduce, but you check. You can’t do that. nally got them paying for it. would leave the world today And they’re paying for our in a very, very precarious Unger: I know my col- troops there and the expenses. position. leagues here, and myself, have We had a hard time doing that called upon you to make a lot with the Germans. And the Unger: Do you find any of assessments of individual French. But we’ve gone a long danger to that effect? leaders. And it has all been way in that regard. I really focused upon this country. I can’t assess the new Prime Laird: There’s danger just wondered if you might Minister of Japan. I hope, now of someone using nuclear devices. There’s no question about it, because they’re easy Loren Danzis to build. They’re very easy Chief of Administration to build. And there’s always at the National Forensics In- that possibility, and we have stitute from 1991 through 1994, to keep guard. We’ve got to Danzis has been involved in do a better job, though, with directing NFI programs our intelligence. To get that throughout his collegiate de- intelligence problem really bating and coaching careers. solved, there are a lot of As a student at American Uni- things you have to do. I mean, versity, Loren served as both you have to infiltrate some The name of one of Captain and Administrator of of these groups, you have to the A.U. Debate Team. He was America's best-known public be on the guard constantly. servants has not appeared on a leading competitor in CEDA’s But this idea that we’re just East Coast region, reaching any buildings. Until now. The going to announce we’re going LAIRD CENTER, for which ground the Final Round of many tour- to destroy everything, on an naments. Loren then served will be broken on May 3, will overnight basis, that’s a won- honor former Defense Secre- as Debate Coach during the derful dream. But it just 1993-1994 season, when his tary and leading U.S. Con- isn’t practical at this time. gressman Melvin R. Laird in teams reached the Semi-Final his hometown of Marshfield, Round at both the CEDA Var- Unger: You know, Mr. sity National Debate Champi- Wisconsin. The $12 million, Secretary, I commented at the 50,000 sq. ft. edifice, due onships and the Novice Na- outset of this speech, that tional Tournament. That year to be completed during the sum- you were going over for the mer of 1997, will be home to he also received the Best De- swearing in of a new Secre- bate Judge award in CEDA’s a cadre of human health and tary of Defense today. safety research entities, in- Northeast region. In 1992 and cluding the internationally 1996, Loren served as a pan- Laird: I think I’ll get elist on the United Press In- recognized NATIONAL FARM MEDI- there for the reception. CINE CENTER. ternational Presidential De- bate Evaluation Panel and in "It is altogether fitting Unger: The reception -- that this new Center be named 1993 evaluated the Perot-Gore I can’t tell you how much we’ve NAFTA Debate. in honor of Wisconsin's fa- appreciated the amount of time vorite son, and one of the Danzis is a student at New you spent here with us today. York University School of Law. ablest supporters of medical Of the individual interviews research this nation has pro- Following graduation in 1997, that I read earlier on, just he will practice securities duced," said Robert Froehlke, to prepare for this particu- national chairperson for the law at Orrick, Herrington, and lar conversation piece, all Sutcliffe in New York City. Laird Center fundraising cam- of them were obviously very paign. complimentary in terms of your The executive director of public service. The comment Marshfield's research divi- was made that Melvin Laird is Steven Behm sion, Dr. Paul Gunderson said, “a real class act.” And I Coach of American Univer- "The state-of-the-art LAIRD just want to say my own reac- sity Individual Events Speech CENTER is critical to continu- tion is that there are and Team, Behm received his un- ing the mission of the orga- will be a large, large number dergraduate degree from the nization, which is three-fold: of high school students, teach- University of Illinois, Ur- to engage in basic and clini- ers, and parents all across bana-Champaign, achieving a cal research, to support the the country, when they pick dual BA in Political Science broad spectrum of medical edu- up the particular issue of The and in Speech Communication cation, and to be an active Rostrum in which this conver- in three years. As President participant in public service sation will appear, who will of the Speech Team, Behm led initiatives whenever and wher- be indeed nodding their heads the Illinois team to their ever possible." in agreement after reading first Intercollegiate Champi- The LAIRD CENTER, in ad- this piece. You’ve been a onship in 1994 by advancing dition to housing the staff real class act for us, and I four of his eight events into of the National Farm Medicine think for thousands of mem- out rounds at the National Center, will also provide a bers of the high school com- Forensic Association Tourna- newer, expanded working en- munity. And I just simply ment. Steve Dean’s Listed vironment for professional want to, on behalf of the Na- every semester for both de- staff in the related depart- tional Forensic League, and grees and received the Otto ments of epidemiology, bio- all of its members, extend our A.L. Dieter Award from Illi- statistics, molecular genet- thanks to you. nois for outstanding service ics and medical education. to the field of Speech Commu- Laird: I’ve enjoyed be- nication. ing with you this morning. Behm moved to Washing- ton, D.C. and worked for Na- tional Media, Inc., one of the nation’s leading political advertising agencies. After winning 29 of the 30 local, state and national campaigns on which he consulted, Behm moved to Capitol Hill, where he was appointed Press Secre- tary to Congressman Philip M. Crane, the youngest to ever fill that position.