The Stonewall Rebellion of 1969: The Oral History of Roger Goodman

Interviewer: Danielle Bernabei

Interviewee: Roger Goodman

Instructor: Mr. Haight

Date: February 15, 2015

Table of Contents

Interviewee Release Form…………………………………………………………………2

Student Release Form……………………………………………………………………..3

Statement of Purpose……………………………………………………………………...4

Biography………………………………………………………………………………….5

Historical Contextualization: The Turning Point of the Gay Rights Movement………….7

Interview Transcription…………………………………………………………………..18

Interview Analysis……………………………………………………………………….38

Appendix…………………………………………………………………………………41

Works Consulted…………………………………………………………………………44

Statement of Purpose

The purpose of this American Century oral history project is to further understand the pivotal event that propelled the gay rights movement to its current success, the

Stonewall Rebellion of 1969. Stonewall veteran Roger Goodman’s reflection in an interview, provides a valiant, and emotional statement on the rebellion with record of previous gay liberation efforts and the AIDS outbreak. Mr. Goodman’s childhood, and adult experiences as a member of the homosexual community, and as an active member in the fight for equality provide Mr. Goodman the ability to appraise the impact of the

Stonewall Rebellion on the LGBT community and the efforts towards Civil Rights and the Gay Rights Movement.

Biography of Roger Goodman

Roger Goodman, M.Mus. M.Div. was born in New York City in 1946 and is the brother of Len Goodman who is three years older than Roger. He is the son of Florence and Gerald Goodman. Roger attended Oberlin College and Trinity College of Music in

London for his undergraduate degree and attended Northwestern University for his

M.Mus. He matriculated to Chicago Theological ‘Seminary and Seabury-Western

Theological Seminary where he earned his M.Div., specializing in Queer Theology of the body. Roger was active during the Civil Rights Movement and protests over the Vietnam

War in the 1960’s, yet understanding the heterosexism of those movements slowly grew away from them because of that particular politic. Mr. Goodman is also a Veteran of the

Stonewall Rebellion, the watershed event for the contemporary LGBTQ movement in

June 1969. After being an international concert harpsichordist, teacher, and recording

artist, performing in such venues as Alice Tully Hall in Lincoln Center in NYC, Carnegie

Recital Hall in NYC, the Wigmore Hall in London, the Ordway Center for the

Performing Arts in St. Paul, and Orchestra Hall in Chicago, he retired from musician

2010 after 40 years. Upon his retirement he began work on the completion of his published book Thoughts of a Tribal Elder: One Queerman’s Journey From the Ashes

Risen, a book of essays on ‘Queer topics such as politics, spirituality, ritual, symbol, transformational sex, mythology, the arts, etc. as well as Mr. Goodman’s poetry. Because of his addictions, he became HIV+ in the early 1980s and was diagnosed with AIDS in

1995 at which time he died during a 10-day coma, but miraculously came back from death. He says the reason that he came back was because he had important transformational work to do with Queer people everywhere. Thoughts of a Tribal Elder is a major part of that work, as was his performing and teaching. Mr. Goodman is a retired

Spiritual Director in private practice, which he began with his Queer brothers dying from

AIDS-related complications in the 1980s and 90s doing chaplaincy work in the death rooms in two hospitals in Chicago. Mr. Goodman lives with a number of HIV-related illnesses, two of them being terminal. He lives in Chicago with his spouse Jerry Scholle and their two beloved cats Murfee and Gizmo.

The Turning Point of the Gay Rights Movement

Gaius Scribonius Curio, a Roman politician suggested that the Roman Emperor,

Julius Caesar was bisexual by stating that Caesar was, “a husband to every man’s wife and a wife to every woman’s husband”(Fascinating History). It was believed that Caesar was never troubled by the opinion others had based on his sexual identity, but that was back in 44 B.C. It is understandably surprising that the concept of being a part of the presently regarded LGBT1 community was accepted and not considered controversial during the Roman Emperors time considering the first gay rights organization was founded on December 10, 1924 in the United States. The actions that took place June 28th

July 3, 1969 in Greenwich Village, a small neighborhood in New York City generated the true beginning of the gay liberation movement and present activism in the United States.

The Stonewall Inn was a gay bar, where gays and lesbians felt comfortable gathering together. Gay, lesbian and transgender men and women were surrounded by New York

Police officers who raided the bar expecting the common submission of the group but receiving a counterattack. Being apart of the LGBT community was “breaking the law” and punishable by imprisonment. People of the community were not only subjected to harassment because of their sexual identity, but also because of the color of their skin, the

Gay Rights Movement and the Civil Rights Movement coincided with similar problems.

The revolt was an effort to raise and establish awareness that all people should be given equal rights, regardless of their sexual identity or race. To understand the importance of what occurred at the Stonewall Inn, one must examine what prompted the group to

1 LGBT stands for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender, a way to describe ones gender or sexual identity.

retaliate, what transpired during the five nights and the effect the riots as well as gain a first-hand perspective from someone who was there.

Homophobia is an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people. There were many “precautionary measures” that took place over time in attempts to deny gay rights, but eventually those who identified with the community began to embrace and voice their sexual identity. Upon the ending of World

War Two, gays and lesbians were promptly denied the power to enlist in the military due to President Dwight Eisenhower’s “Executive Order 10450, which banned homosexuals from working for the federal government or any of its private contractors” (PBS), which supported denying even suspected homosexuals of their jobs. Pressure to either stay “in the closet” or emphasize ones heterosexuality for women increased in the work place, especially in the military, “any woman who rejects male advances or harassment can easily be accused of lesbianism and suffer humiliation, threats, and sometimes violence”

(Pharr 106). Lists began compiling with names, which were publicized, and created for public viewing, which led to the revocation of professional licenses. Matters were made even worse when states began to consider “sex between consenting adults of the same sex, even in a private home, could be punishable up to life in prison, confinement in a mental institution, or even castrated” (Pharr 106), and eventually by 1961 Illinois was the only state that did not consider homosexuality to be illegal. To express ones sexuality publicly transformed into a brave action. Not only was there pressure on the gay and lesbian community but those who associated themselves with the transgender community were forced to identify themselves with genders they did not relate to. New York City began to enforce laws including a penal code which “called for the arrest of anyone in

public wearing fewer than three items of clothing “appropriate” to their gender” (ISR), cross dressers were commonly subjected to beatings and even death. Ordinary actions were transformed into possible criminal activity such as “loitering in a public toilet”

(ISR) could result in unemployment. To the justice and criminal department it became acceptable to regularly imprison gays solely based on their sexual identity. In the eyes of the law gay people “were condemned by the law as being criminals, they were condemned by religion as being sinners and by medicine as being mentally ill” (PBS), but soon identifying with the LGBT community had strayed away from being something to be ashamed of and discouraged. Transgender people often attempted to broadcast the concept that ones sexual identity was not the only guideline on how to live, but that

“gender is possibly not biological but constructed, and that we have choice in the ways it is constructed” (Pharr 117), and in some instances those words were used against people of the LGBT community. California supported the performance of “electroshock and other draconian “therapies” on gays and lesbians” (ISR), which were additions to having them placed in mental institutions for “psychopathic personality disorder2” (ISR).

According to Irving Bieber and Charles Socarides, two psychoanalysts believed that “The homosexual is ill, and anything that tends to hide the fact reduced his chances of seeking and obtaining treatment” (Duberman 97). Homosexuals were subject to being tested, like lab rats against heterosexual “controlled samples” normally to come to bogus conclusions but in 1956, Evelyn Hooker published her book, The Adjustment of the Male Overt

Homosexual, “Hookers research concludes homosexuality is not a clinical entity and that heterosexuals and homosexuals do not differ significantly” (PBS) which was one of the

2 Psychopathic personality disorder is characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior.

first studies that was in favor of the homosexual community. Unfortunately, actions like

Hooker’s did not stop hate crimes like those in New York City which increased as LGBT people were typically beaten up and killed, with complete disregard to their civil and human rights. There neglected to be any laws, which protected people from physical or verbal abuse. Sylvia an interviewee in Martin Duberman’s book, Stonewall, Sylvia recalls a passerby calling out “Who are you, bitch? Since when did they let dykes in the block?”

(Duberman 123), other vicious comments were common, some threatening murder. There were no legal limitations on how people could treat members of the LGBT community.

By 1950 The Mattachine Society was founded, followed by the Daughters of Bilitis which was “the first lesbian rights organization in the United States” (PBS). These two societies gained over thousands of members, combined they became the most successful gay and lesbian organizations; they wanted to emphasize the “love aspect of the community rather than the sexual part” (Stonewall Fleet). Overtime the organizations got more attention as lesbians and gays began to become more prominent in all aspects of publicized work, “literature, theater, movies and newspapers” (ISR), the community began to draw in more attention, which began to increase the communities progress in

“coming out”. Although the increase in attention and willingness for people of the community increased, cops began to circle in, closer and closer to the activity. In New

York City there were laws prohibiting the distribution of alcohol to more than three homosexuals at a time. Bars were subject to threats of being “liable to lose their liquor license” (Stonewall Fleet), in attempts to “prevent gays and lesbians from starting their own bars and clubs” (Stonewall Fleet). The Mafia took advantage of these laws, providing space and alcohol for gays and lesbians to come together. Police raids became

more and more common, and arrests were made for simply being near a bar. In 1966, the

Mattachine Society had increased in power and size, enough for groups of men to drop by bars stating “We’re Queer. We’re here. Serve us beer” (Stonewall Fleet), by denying a beverage, bars were sued for discrimination. As these protests became more popular, police raids decreased, suggesting that the gays and lesbians could begin to settle in. The

Stonewall Inn became the most popular gay bar in New York City because the Mafia paid homosexuals to waiter and pay for the alcohol, unlicensed alcohol. The Stonewall

Inn was headquarters for Mafia and illegal activity, which the police were knowledgeable of. Greenwich Village was always surrounded by heavy police activity, which was increased during the reelection campaign of Mayor John Lindsay. Deputy Inspector

Seymour Pine placed the order to raid the Stonewall Inn under the pretense that it was

“operating without a liquor license” (ISR) as if he was not aware. Police gathered to overwhelm the individuals, “sexist and homophobic stereotypes of gays and lesbians certainly reassured the cops that resistance was unlikely” (ISR), but the gays and lesbians had experienced enough harassment and oppression that for the first time in history “it was all of them, together, united under a single goal and desire” (Stonewall Fleet), and those aspirations changed gay rights into a movement. The Stonewall Inn raids transformed a common police raid, into people taking charge, taking an active stance against the law, against society and against oppression, physically in the streets to fight for their respective human, civil and gay rights.

The Stonewall Inn, located on 53 Christopher Street, New York, NY, was the most popular location for young, many non-white, gays, lesbians, cross dressers and transgender to unite under one roof. A Mob leader named “Fat Tony”, regularly paid off

New York City’s “finest sixth precinct task force” ran the Stonewall Inn in order to maintain his corrupt but popular business. The regular intake was presumably “$5,000 and $6,000 on an average Friday night, Fat Tony had little problem skimming off $1,200 a month” (ISR), but this was not without loss to his customers. Waiters were blackmailed to work for the bar, a “favor” for keeping ones secret. Mobsters and cops had established a system in which the mob, and the police were able to keep up their positive appearances

“while never threatening their mutual access to easy cash at the expense of the LGBT clientele” (ISR), so they both made a profit from the booming secret gay bar business.

Before the 1960’s there was no retaliation against suppression, individuals lives were submerged in shame and horror, which allowed cops to execute unnecessary arrests and beatings upon certain individuals. Around 12 AM on June 27, 1969 two patrol men, two detectives and two policewomen were led by Deputy Inspector Pine to check in on the

Stonewall Inn. Normally people lacking their ID would be arrested so many people feared the moment they would be discovered. Upon arrival and assessment, people were released one by one outside, which was uncommon for the police to do considering they had their arrangement with the Mafia. Attention was drawn to the growing number of people being filed out, until three drag queens were escorted to the arriving paddy wagon, which caused people to attempt to slow down by pushing it. A reporter from The Village

Voice stated “an officer attempted to steer the last of patrons, a lesbian, through the bystanders to a nearby patrol car “She put a struggle, from car to door to car again”

(Truscott IV), a contributor of the raids explains, “there was no one thing that happened, or one person, there was just… a flash of group-of mass-anger” (Duberman 197).

Attempts to subdue the crowd only made matters worse for the police force, for possibly

the first time the police were faced with a unified group of suppressed people, “Gay power!” (197 Duberman) became a popular phrase echoed through the people. Soon enough “people were picking up and throwing whatever loose objects came to hand- coins, bottles, cans, bricks” (Duberman 198), which forced the police to retreat into the empty bar, for the first time the police were not the people in power. Deputy Inspector pine recalls, “I had been in combat situations, [but] there was never any time that I felt more scared than then” (Duberman 198). Gays and lesbians were stereotyped to be weak and incapable of an effective retaliation, which led to the police underestimating the power of people who had been previously subject to their abuse. The police were finally on the other end of the spectrum “the crowd was now in control of the street, and it bellowed in triumph and pent-up rage” (Duberman 198). The police were barricaded in the bar until a second attempt to set the bar on fire was successful, adding more pressure on the cops to control the situation. The Tactical Patrol Force (TPF) arrived at the bar at

2:55 A.M. (Pharr) armed with billy clubs and tear gas expecting the 2,000 rioters to disperse. Instead of surrendering to their power the mob “doubled back behind the troopers, and pelted them with debris” (Duberman 200), which only caused more problems for the police and armed TPF. By the end of Friday June 27, 1969, thirteen people had been arrested, multiple people obtained injuries and the New York City Police and TPF had just experienced their first act of retaliation by the group that “resistance was unlikely at best, irrelevant at worst” (ISR). Saturday, June 28th took off where the previous nights events had stopped. Police and TPF were stationed outside Stonewall, accompanied by thousands of people gathered after hearing about the raids. TPF officers were unable to prevent the “blocking off Christopher Street, preventing any vehicular

traffic from coming through” (Duberman 204), which allowed the mob to maintain the unity, which could not be penetrated by any force. Police forces showed no mercy to innocent demonstrators, by four A.M people had been “clubbed to the ground”

(Duberman 205), until the police forces withdrew. Flyers were made to “accuse the police of colluding with the Mafia to prevent gay businesspeople from opening “decent gay bars with healthy social atmosphere” (205), were posted around the Greenwich

Village which could predominantly decrease the tension between the rioters and the police involved. Accounting for the series of events, which took place on the twenty- seventh, The New York Times “insisted that Saturday night was “less violent” than

Friday” (NYT). The TPF started a new day on the 29th by performing unnecessary visits to Stonewall, which now had “Gay Power!” sprawled generously across the forefront of the bar. As night came upon the city, cops attempted to cohere reactions from people by screaming, “Start something, faggot, just start something”. Things were changing around the city and law enforcement was having the most trouble adapting to gay movements and actions, which were actually having an impact, Pine later says “For those of us in public morals, things were completely changed… suddenly they were not submissive anymore” (Duberman 208). Following the publication of the rioting on the front-page of

Village Voice, things escalated for the last time on Wednesday as previous actions were taken and the “TPF wielded their nightsticks indiscriminately, openly beat people up, left them bleeding on the street”. Although the last physical actions of the riots seem to replicate those from five days before, the Stonewall Riots were the true beginning of an action that called for justice and equality for everyone, and was the significant beginning of the modern gay rights movement.

The Stonewall Riots of 1969 remain in the memories of the thousands of LGBT people who participated in the riots and the hundreds of New York City, law enforcement officers. Warren Allen Smith is an American Gay activist who was an active participant in the riots of 1969, and recounted his experiences during an interview by Stiliana

Dimkova in 2004. Smith was born in Connecticut where the topic of homosexuality was not even discussed; he describes homosexuality as a topic that was completely evaded in conversation, “It was something… you didn’t talk about cancer but you knew that it existed, but you didn’t talk about gay because nobody knew.” (Dimkova 15). In comparison to original New Yorkers of the same time period, Smith was given opportunities such as zero harassment or ridicule, in New York, “It was a time where you paid to be closeted, you just didn’t dare come out” (Dimkova 23). New York City gays were subjected to jail time, placement in mental institutions and regular visits from police officers, while Smith was not preoccupied with the discrimination and labels of society,

“On the one hand, I was the straight teacher, a good teacher, one of the best, and the other part of me, when I left Connecticut, and taught there, a hundred and eighty days of the year I was teaching in Connecticut, the other hundred and eighty-five days, I was here with Fernando and we were running the studio.” (Dimkova 22), those who were “out of the closet” in New York City were not given the chance or even wanted to transform themselves to fit in with the rest of society. To those active in the riots, the policemen involved were symbols of oppression and abuse, there was no justification for their actions, but Smith sympathizes for the police force since his closest acquaintance was an active policeman during the raids, Smith defends them by saying “they were carrying out whatever the mayor of the city made them do.” (Dimkova 28), during this time John

Lindsay was reelected Mayor, and did not support the mistreatment of LGBT people.

Warren Allen Smith presents a good example of a gay activist who experienced acceptance, oppression, understanding both sides (government vs. the people), and the first movements towards equality.

The 1960’s served as a transition period for many rights movements of which the

United States was lacking in support. During this decade that changed the nation forever, equality for blacks, women, the ending of the Vietnam War accompanied The Gay Rights

Movement which started as a result of the Stonewall Riots in 1969. The American

Historian Eric Foner describes the 60’s as “The “rights revolution” completed the transformation of American freedom from a finite body of entitlements enjoyed mainly by white men into an open-ended to equality, recognition, and self-determination” (Foner

303). Foner suggests that all individuals, and groups in society were now able to sustain themselves by protecting their right to equality gained during the 1960’s. Early efforts of gay liberation are not commonly celebrated, neither is the truly significant effect of gained attention due to the Stonewall Inn raids that united a community and created a pathway for a movement visible to the public. Leading up to the Stonewall Inn raid, gays and lesbians were forced to endure the pain of rejection, brutal physical and verbal attacks, hate crimes, and hiding their true identity. Historian John D’Emilio credits the events gays and lesbians were subject to as the propeller of the Gay Liberation

Movement, “Although gay community was a precondition for a mass movement, the oppression of lesbians and gay men was the force that propelled the movement into existence.” (D’Emilio 472) Before the Gay Rights Movements gays and lesbians led safer lives living under false identities in which they relate to, D’Emilio explains even further

that “Coming out, provided gay liberation with an army of permanent enlistees”.

Historian David Carter observed, “Stonewall was itself a fusion event. Certainly the riot was a product of the charged political and social scene of the late ‘60s” (Carter 67). It is agreed upon by historians that the Stonewall Riots were a result of underrepresented and lives demeaned by the idea that homosexuality was never to be “normal”.

The Stonewall Riots represent a historical event that marked the commencement of the modern gay liberation movement in the United States. The riots mark the first time in history that gays rejected cowering from the police and finally taking an active, and physical stance against them. As a result of minimal gay pride and liberation moments besides the efforts Daughters of Bilitis and the Mattachine’s, which fought for gay equality and a space for LGBT in society, and provided lesbians with a place to unify, gays lacked the support and structure of organization resulting in homosexuals being neglected a place in society and making it harder to understand their individual sexual identities. In response to the riot, organizations and societies worked together cohesively protesting and marching more than ever before in LGBT history, fighting for equality.

Ken Goffman considers the Stonewall Riots to be the beginning of a new time for people in the LGBT community, “The revolt initiated a new era, as gay liberations organizations formed and asserted their rights to “come out of the closet” and into the open as human beings as deserving of rights as everybody else” (Goffman 302).

Interview Transcription

Interview/Narrator: Roger Goodman Interviewer: Gaby Bernabei Location: St. Andrew’s Episcopal School, Date: January 20, 2015 This interview was reviewed and edited by Gaby Bernabei

Gaby Bernabei: This is Gaby Bernabei and I am interviewing Roger Goodman as a part of the American Century Oral History project. This interview is taking place over the phone in St. Andrews Episcopal School while Mr. Goodman is in Chicago on January 20,

2015 at 2:08 p.m.. Could you please describe your childhood?

Roger Goodman: My childhood was very difficult; I come from an abusive family, and I have known since I was five that I was gay, and I had to hide that at all costs which made my life very, very difficult. I spent much of it hiding because I thought it was a matter of life and death. I had very few friends until I was a senior in high school, I have a brother who’s three years older than I am, and we hated each other. Um, my parents saw to that, they wanted my brother and I to hate each other and we really did, but now we can’t love each other more than we love each other now. He’s very important to me, and I’m very important to him. We moved a lot, we had to move to different homes, and then finally we moved from Long Island, which is where I spent my first eleven years, to Pittsburg.

And I started playing the piano when I was five, and found my best piano teacher when we moved to Pittsburg. I was being groomed for a concert career as a pianist, but I didn’t really want it, it was my mother who wanted it for her, not for me. But I was, I don’t like saying this because it sounds very self important but I was a little genius at the piano, and

one competition was left and right, played concerts starting at age eleven, I was already playing concerts. I even played in the Pittsburg symphony orchestra when I was eleven.

And I don’t, I didn’t, I really had an unhappy childhood Gaby, the only thing that saved me from killing myself was my piano, it was my music. That’s what saved my life.

Otherwise I would probably be dead; it was such a miserable childhood. And I got, I finally made friends in my senior year in high school, and we’re still very close. I just, I

Skype with them quite often, and they were my best friends in high school and we’re still really close and I’m sixty-eight now, so that’s a pretty long friendship. And, what else? I don’t know what else to say, you know my piano was the central part of my life.

GB: So you mentioned your family, what kind of relationship did you exactly have?

With your father and mother? (4:25)

RG: I had no relationship with my father at all, he did not know how to be in relationships, he didn’t have a clue, and he did not love me um, at all. My mother, well

I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you what it is. My father was sexually abusive with me. Um, so I’m a survivor of sexual abuse, and then my mother was emotionally abusive with me and, she would cut me down all the time. She would feed me tremendous quantities of food until I became quite fat and then she would say to me, “get out of my sight you fat ugly pig, you make me want to vomit when I look at you.” So it was not a very good relationship with her, though it was closer to her than it was to my father. My father was just, not able to relate to his children at all, I don’t even think he was able to relate to his wife, frankly. It

wasn’t a very good marriage and my brother and I suffered from that. But I think the worst part of my childhood was the sexual abuse.

GB: That’s a hard thing to deal with.

RG: Yes its very hard, I did not start really recovering from it till about twenty years ago, with some very good psychotherapy, and I’m fine with it now, I have been fine with it for, nearly twenty years. Though I still, I still have very bitter feelings towards my father.

I’ve forgiven him, when he died I stood up at his funeral and forgave him for what he did, but I have no love for him nor do I miss him at all. He’s just simply not a part of my life in terms of memory. I can’t give you more information on that because my childhood was so bad that I have very little memory of it. I really don’t have any memory of my childhood until I was eleven years old. I just know that it was terrible.

GB: I understand. You mentioned that you knew you were gay by the age of five.

RG: Yes.

GB: Was there a specific way that you came out? (7:36)

RG: I came out when I was eighteen at Oberlin College, where I went to study music. I had to be in psychotherapy because I had sort of a psychotic break when I got to Oberlin because I didn’t have to hide who I was anymore, and I was able to stop living in my

fantasies and actually live a real life, as a gay man and it scared me terribly so I went to see a psychotherapist at Oberlin and there were five psychotherapist on the staff at

Oberlin and I happen to get this extraordinary therapist, who said to me “if you want me to make you straight then you have to find another therapist Roger, because my job is to get you to love yourself beyond the beyond and to realize that you have gifts as a gay man that I as a straight man will never have”, and he, he was so good that I came out in my second semester of my freshman year so I was out throughout college but not before college.

GB: Were you scared of how people would react? (9:01)

RB: Yes, I was. And I was also afraid of myself Gaby. You know, there, gay, it’s very different now than it was back then, that was the 1950’s and early 1960’s, and there was this thing called internalized homophobia, which I suffered from terribly and I hated myself, I loathed myself. And it wasn’t until I met Dr. John Thompson, my psychotherapist, that I fell in love with myself and I didn’t care what people thought, it was of no consequence at all. And it turns out that they all thought I was really wonderful um, and people sought me out. My fellow students, sought me out for friendship because they thought I was so remarkable as an out gay man, I was the first gay man at Oberlin to come out publically in the history of the college, and my student, my fellow students really were drawn to me because of that.

GB: Did your experience at Oberlin have an effect on who you are today? (10:38)

RB: Oh absolutely! It got me to be political. It started my political consciousness, and I didn’t feel, I didn’t feel part of a gay community Gaby, because there was none at

Oberlin, I was the only out gay man there in the larger college. There were out gay men in the conservatory of music, which is where I was a student, but we were only out to each other. We were not out, they were not out to the college itself, but I was and it made me extremely political, and you have to remember that the 1960’s was an extremely volatile and political time because of the, it was the time of the Vietnam War, and it was the time of the Civil Rights Movement. So I got very caught up in that, but it wasn’t until

I got to Stonewall that I found a community of gay people, gay and lesbian people, so that I really felt apart of a larger body than myself.

GB: Before Stonewall do you remember any laws or restrictions against people of the gay community and LGBT? (12:04)

RB: Oh sure. Oh absolutely it was illegal to be gay I mean if you think about that, that is really mind-boggling. It was not just illegal to engage in gay sex, it was illegal to be gay, and the police could come into a bar and simply arrest people. They’d as for identification and arrest us, take us off to jail, finger print us, and keep us in jail over night, and then put our names in the newspapers the next day, people lost their families, people lost their jobs, people lost everything.

(Break)

GB: Are you okay to continue?

RG: Yes absolutely.

GB: Do you remember what we were talking about? I think it was laws and restrictions.

(00:32)

RG: Yes. It was the laws and restrictions that well, that plus a lot of corruption that caused Stonewall to happen.

(Announcement over the loudspeaker at St. Andrews)

GB: Were you politically active before the sixties? (1:13)

RG: No, I wasn’t politically active before the sixties, I got to Oberlin in 1964 um, and that’s when I became politically active.

GB: Do you recall any Gay Rights Movements before the 1960’s? (1:36)

RG: No I don’t.

GB: Were you knowledgeable at the time of the, I think its pronounced the Mattachine

Society and the Daughters of Bilitis? (1:49)

RG: Daughters of Bilitis. Yes, I, well, I wasn’t aware of it back then, I certainly got aware of it a little later, of both of them. And there was political work going on before

Stonewall, but it was a very strange kind of political work Gaby. The picket lines for the

Mattachine Society made sure that everyone was dressed in a suit and tie and that women wore long skirts and heels, and looked for the all world like a bunch of straight people from that era. They tried to implement some political change but it ended up in fragmentation, and the Mattachine Society simply fell apart, so did the Daughters of

Bilitis. I think they ended right before Stonewall, I’m not sure I can’t really give you information about that.

GB: Do you recall your involvement in the Stonewall Rebellion, and what did you do?

(3:16)

RG: Yes, and I’m really glad you called it the rebellion because most people call it the

Stonewall Riots, and it was not a riot by any means. Riots are chaotic, and normally have no purpose except to cause damage. But the rebellion had a very strong, powerful purpose, and it was to try to change the corruption of the police department, which was controlled by the mafia. The bar was owned by the mafia and a payment was made to the police department every week to not go in and raid the bar. The payment was made through the mafia but the week of Stonewall the payment wasn’t made and so the raid happened and that’s when street, gay street boys and drag queens got fed up and resisted the police and it was quite an event. There were many, many, hundreds of us there, filling

Sheridan Square, which is the area of the West Village of New York where the bar is,

was, no it’s still there. The Stonewall is still there, it stopped being the Stonewall and became a bagel shop for a while but now it’s the Stonewall Bar again. There was, there was a lot of power among the people and we barricaded the police inside the bar so that they couldn’t get out, every time a policeman tried to get out of the bar, he was pelted with beer bottles and bricks so that he had to go back into the bar, they couldn’t get out.

And they finally did get out and they started arresting people and taking them off to jail, and a very sad thing happened. One of the people they arrested was the son of a diplomat the consul of one of the Central American countries, the ambassador, and he was arrested. He was so freaked out that he would be found out as being gay, that he jumped out the window and impaled himself on the spikes of the fence that surrounded the police department and died, and that created even more anger among the people of the rebellion.

Which just created it to be longer, it was not a one-night thing Gaby, it was four or five nights long. And what we did, the police would chase us down the streets and we would separate and go down side streets so that we were behind the police and they would turn around and come at us and we would separate again and go around them so that we were behind them so that they couldn’t really do anything to us. Once the initial rebellion at the bar stopped, and it became a street event, it became a neighborhood event, a community event of anger and power.

GB: Around the time were you visiting Stonewall with other people or individually?

(9:48)

RG: No, I was visiting it with my boyfriend who lived in New York and I lived in

Chicago and it was a long distance relationship and I went to visit Michael and he said come on lets go out for the evening and we went out and ran into this rebellion. I was not in the bar when it happened, I was outside the bar.

GB: Did you find it a very different experience that you recall from other people telling you their stories? (10:24)

RG: There’s such an anthology about the rebellion Gaby. Some people say it happened because Judy Garland had just died, and so gay men were just infuriated and that created the rebellion, which is just bullshit. That’s craziness, that’s part of the mythology. It happened because there was corruption and because there were all these rules and laws that kept us from being who we were back then.

GB: It’s known that the rebellion was not just the night of the 28th; do you remember anything about the following nights? (11:15)

RG: The following nights were still hundreds of us gathered in the streets, taunting the police and I don’t know how to describe it. I don’t know how to describe it, it was just like hundreds of people trying to gain personal power, and we did. We got it. The laws changed, the raids on bars pretty much stopped. When I lived in Chicago before the

Stonewall Rebellion, I moved to Chicago in 1968, June of 1968 to go to graduate school at Northwestern University and was part of an organization called the Gay Liberation

Front, which formed out of the Stonewall Rebellion and it was a radical, political organization that had chapters in various cities and I helped found the chapter in Chicago.

Then when I realized how committed I was to the political work I left Chicago and stopped my graduate school work and went to Boston and lived in Boston for three years

I believe. I Founded a Gay Liberation Front in Boston and Cambridge Massachusetts so I was very involved in political street work, working with gay on the streets of Boston and

Cambridge, helping homeless gay people, young gay youth to have a roof over their head and food to eat. We also published a newspaper called Fag Rag that was published up until fairly recently and continued to be published until, gosh I don’t know when but it must’ve been still published in the 1990’s. After the 1960’s, and it was very well read, it was in almost every gay bookstore in the country, and there were gay bookstores devoted to nothing but gay literature, political literature, spiritual literature, sexual literature, theological literature, fiction, gay fiction, and books about the rebellion itself. But there were some fabulous bookstores that opened up after the rebellion.

GB: Do you recall any publicity after the rebellion? (15:04)

RG: No, I don’t.

GB: Was there a specific way that you felt after the first night or after the whole entire event? (15:21)

RG: Well I felt really angry. I was enraged for all the nights of the rebellion, but a year after Stonewall the very first march protest march happened in New York to commemorate the rebellion and I was there for that, its from that march that the Gay

Pride Parades started happening in various cities, and now the parades have nothing to do with politics, nothing to do with. They’re social events and the only political part of it, the Gay Pride Parades is straight city politicians riding on a roofs, on the folded down roofs of convertibles with posters of “elect so and so”. I really hate the parades I never go to them. I think they’re a travesty, I said to one very young man at the last parade I went to, “why are you doing this?” and he said “because it’s pride” and I said “yes I know it’s pride, why are you doing this?” and he said “because it’s pride!” and I said again “yes I know that, what is that?” and he said “I don’t know it just happens every year!” He had no idea about the history of what was going on and most young people didn’t, there are people now that have no idea what Stonewall was, there’s a whole generation of gay and lesbian men and women who have no idea what Stonewall was, they’d never even heard of it. I think that’s really sad, cause I don’t think a people are really a people until we have a history, you know before, before black history month when the African American community was included in text books in colleges and taught about in classrooms and the history of African American people started getting taught, there was no people, it was just individual black people living their individual lives in a very oppressive world, but then as their history came to the fore, they became a people, and that’s what happened, that’s what would’ve, what should’ve happened with LGBT people, but it’s not, it doesn’t happen anymore, there’s no history. Very few people know about Stonewall and the

history of that, and it makes me very sad but it also makes me very angry. I feel like I’m being erased.

GB: Would you make that a topic discussed in school or in the public? (18:50)

RG: Yes. Part of my life was spent traveling to universities and colleges talking about

LGBT history, about coming out, and then I started talking about HIV/AIDS. I have full blown AIDS Gaby, which is one of the reasons I’m in the hospital now, I have a number of diseases that come out of HIV and they hospitalize me a good deal of the time and you happen to catch me while I’m at the hospital. I just found out today which freaked me out a lot that I have congestive heart failure, and I have stage four kidney disease and I have an essential tremor in my hand that shakes and that’s all from AIDS. So if anyone says to you AIDS is over, tell them they have no idea what they’re talking about.

GB: Of course

RG: You might want to do some research about it and become a spokesperson for it.

GB: For AIDS?

RG: Yeah! And find out about the history of the disease, which was quite an extraordinary history. Have you ever seen the film Longtime Companion?

GB: No I don’t think so. I don’t think I’ve heard of it.

RG: Well you should see it. Do you have Netflix?

GB: Yes I do.

RG: Good, rent it from Netflix, it’s called Longtime Companion, and it will give you a really good idea about what it was like back then, when the plague first hit. It centers around a group of gay men in New York who lived in Fire Island which was a, the summer getaway place for LGBT people, off the coast of Long Island, and the film is absolutely wonderful. The other thing you should watch is The Normal Heart, which was on HBO but it’s available on Netflix I believe.

GB: I’ve heard of that.

RG: It was written by Larry Kramer, who helped found the Gay Men’s Health Crisis in

New York and was very sick with HIV related complications now, he’s still alive but he looks like he’s dead. But those are two incredible things you should watch, they’ll really give you a sense of the community that’s formed around the AIDS crisis. You know the thing that’s interesting about that Gaby is that the community that was formed around the

Stonewall Rebellion became a community of sexual liberation. That community became the community of AIDS, because it’s a sexually transmitted disease and we had no idea

that we were passing a virus around, nobody knew. But it all came out of the Stonewall

Rebellion. The community sort of morphed into a different context.

GB: They bonded together.

RG: And the AIDS community came right out of the Stonewall community. And I don’t know if you’re interested in that but those two things are really important to watch.

GB: No of course I’ll do that as soon as possible.

RG: Good. Longtime Companion and The Normal Heart. I believe the Normal Heart is on Netflix, yes. I know Longtime Companion is, it was an HBO special and I think

Netflix bought it. You’ll love the films, they’re powerful and they’re heartbreaking and they’re filled with hope and love. They’re remarkable, they make me cry every time I see them because they take me back to those times and you know I lost over two hundred friends and acquaintances and colleagues to AIDS in the 1980’s and 90’s, that’s a lot of folks.

GB: During the great outbreak?

RG: Yeah, during the outbreak in the 1980’s, and into the 90’s and I got sick in 1995, that’s when I found out I had AIDS. I knew I was HIV positive for many years before

that but I wasn’t actually diagnosed with AIDS until 1995. Cause you had to have specific infections in order to have an AIDS diagnosis and I had one.

GB: Which you were HIV positive before. (24:38)

RG: Yes, I was HIV positive since the early 1980’s and was diagnosed with AIDS fifteen years later. I lived with it for fifteen years, until I got sick and actually on Christmas Eve

I celebrated a birthday, which was my birthday of coming out of a coma that I was in for ten days in ’95. And I was told I would die before my birthday in May, I came out of the coma in January and I was told I would be dead by the fiftieth birthday and I’ve lived nineteen years beyond what the doctors predicted so I celebrate my birthdays on New

Years Eve cause I consider it a new birthday, I have two birthdays. I don’t mean New

Years Eve, I mean Christmas Even. My regular, biological birthday, which is in May, and my AIDS birthday, which is on Christmas Eve in December. I celebrate it with friends.

GB: What does Stonewall symbolize to you? (26:04)

RG: It symbolizes an end of shame, that’s the best way I can put it Gaby. It ended the shame that LGBT people lived with prior to Stonewall.

GB: Shame of their identity?

RG: Yes. Shame of their identity within a straight world. It ended the shame basically and that’s the best was I can describe what the rebellion symbolizes for me, it also symbolizes tremendous power, self empowerment of a community that really had no power before Stonewall.

GB: Historian John D’Emilio wrote, “Before Stonewall there was no history of lesbians and gay men struggling for freedom, indeed before Stonewall there was no history other than a chronicle of unrelieved oppression”, previously you talked about what Stonewall symbolizes for you but what do you believe it meant for the Gay Rights Movement?

RG: It was a call to freedom; it was a call to liberation. You know the Mattachine

Society and the Daughters of Bilitis existed before Stonewall but there was really no liberation there, there was no freedom, but after Stonewall there was a tremendous empowerment for liberation and freedom, and we got that. Does that answer your question?

GB: Yes of course. How do you think the LGBT community has developed to the point it is today? (28:77)

RG: You’re asking a great cynic about that, I’m incredibly cynical about the LGBT movement. Right now the only LGBT movement is for marriage equality. That’s the central core of the movement but LGBT people have bought into the straight, materialistic corporate life of America, and LGBT people want fabulously expensive

condominiums, fabulously expensive gym memberships, the best sets of china, the best theater tickets, the best opera tickets, the best symphony tickets, the best silverware, and the best income. LGBT people search for six figure incomes, I think we’ve become a materialistic community, and I hate it.

GB: So you believe the motivations and ideals have changed completely?

RG: Yes, I do, very much and I think the only motivation now is marriage equality.

That’s it. Nothing else is happening, the movement, the LGBT community is not dealing with one of the worst things in the world, which is racism, which runs rampant in the

LGBT community, and sexism. Gay men’s attitude towards women is just despicable.

GB: How would you describe it? (30:29)

RG: Women are second-class citizens because they are not men. And it’s just a tremendous amount of sexism. It’s the same sexism that straight men have towards women it’s no different.

GB: So the discrimination is basically the same.

RG: Yeah, I believe so. If you read my blog, Queer Witness, you’ll get a very good sense of this.

GB: You have many, I feel like I’ve found a lot, of your writing.

RG: Oh good, I’m glad.

GB: And previous interviews.

RG: Have you found it all interesting?

GB: Yeah, including, just your biographies are interesting as well.

RG: Oh good, I’m glad. I think this project that you’re doing is so worthwhile Gaby, especially being in an episcopal seminary. I was going to be an episcopal priest in the diesis of Chicago and they ripped it out from under me one month before my ordination.

GB: Because of your identity or do you think it was just another reason? (32:11)

RG: No because of my identity, but it wasn’t just that I’m gay it’s that my theology was very queer theology. It was a very sexual theology, and it scared the shit out of the bishops standing committee, and they refused the ordination.

GB: How different would you say it was, or in which aspects exactly? (32:37)

RG: You mean now?

GB: Well at the time or now

RG: Well gay and lesbian people are ordained now left and right, there’s no problem but there was a huge problem when I was in the ordination process. The heterosexism was really rampant.

GB: How do you think that the LGBT movement or Gay Rights is different than any other civil rights movements? (33:12)

RG: This is going to sound weird, but I think the difference is that it’s a sexual movement. We’re very sexual people and our politics are very sexual politics. For those who have politics, most don’t.

GB: Sexual as in… could you explain, or elaborate a little bit? (33:47)

RG: Gay men are incredibly sexual beings, we were brought up to be sexual being because before Stonewall the gay bars were only places to pick up another man, they were as dark as a cave, the drinks were watered down and triple the amount of money the should’ve been, there was no music, there was no dancing, there was no food, and if you touched another man you would be bounced out of the bar by a straight bouncer. All you could do was talk to someone in the bars; you weren’t allowed to touch them. And

Stonewall changed that, so that our sexuality could be much more open and we could

include it in our political struggles, and that’s very different than the civil rights movement for African American people, which is hardly sexual liberation. It’s a political liberation, certainly but it’s not a sexual liberation.

GB: Why do you think the Stonewall Rebellion happened in New York? (35:22)

RG: Because New York was the center for LGBT people to live, people came from all over then country when they got thrown out of their homes as queer youths and they’d come to New York and live in the streets and part of New York was called Greenwich

Village, it’s now called the West Village, that became the hub of LGBT community, people came from all over the country to live there, because there were so many LGBT people there.

Interview Analysis

American historian Howard Zinn once said; “History is important. If you don't know history it is as if you were born yesterday. And if you were born yesterday, anybody up there in a position of power can tell you anything, and you have no way of checking up on it” (You Can’t Be Neutral on a Moving Train). Documentation of information, important events, and people allow historians and educators to study and pass on understanding of past occurrences. The digital recording of a specific individuals recollection of a turn of events allows historians to maintain original reflections of the event and time period. Although documented history is a much-appreciated source of reference, historian Carl Becker argues that there is no value of history if it will be

“redesigned and newly colored to suit the convenience of those who make use of it”

(Everyman Speech). Amongst the different methods of recording history, oral history is defined as “compilations of stories told about past times and present experiences… firsthand accounts of the past for the record” (History Matters) by oral historian Linda

Shopes. Recording the memories of people having been involved in important events provides not only a detailed, first hand reflection, but also an emotional recollection that could possibly not be acquired later. Textbooks and other forms of history that rely on secondhand sources and multiple different outlets, contain opinionated and selected bits of information that solely satisfies one prejudice, oral history does not simply end with the recording, but continues with a detailed reflection on the information, taking into account all different prospectives. Oral historian Judith Moyer verifies the extenuated attention of an oral history interview, “Oral historians attempt to verify their findings, analyze them, and place them in an accurate historical context”, in her Step-by-Step

Guide to Oral History. The oral history collected from Stonewall Veteran, Roger

Goodman is historically constructive because not only was the interview further analyzed, sustained the previous research done but it also provided a uncommon, and emotional recollection on an event scarcely recognized as the initiation of the Gay Rights

Movement.

Oral history has been a developing method of documentation originating from the beginning of time but is considered to have been introduced by Allan Nevis, a professor at Columbia in the 1940’s. Historian Donald Ritchie states, “By adding an even wider range of voices to the story, oral history does not simplify the historical narrative but makes it more complex-and more interesting” (Ritchie 13). By conducting an oral interview, not only will an exclusive, original recollection of an experience be available, but also significant emotions and exclamations will be available to increase ones perception and understanding of the individuals, personal experience. Oral history like any other method requires accurate information, not only is the recording transcribed and analyzed, but previous research eliminates any doubt in the information relayed to the interviewer. Historians, educators and students recognize the bias in textbook and other methods of receiving information, but in analyzing a transcription, the interviewer is required to entertain every possibility of understanding and perception, allowing for multiple explanations and the true significance of the interviewee’s words. Historian

Edward Carr states that history is a "process of interaction between the historian and his facts, an unending dialogue between the present and the past", while historian Donald

Ritchie argues that “Oral history it’s value not from resisting the unexpected, but from relishing in it” (Ritchie 13), supported by oral historian Judith Moyer’s comment “Oral

history is the systemic collection of living people’s testimony about their own experiences… stories of the people around you are unique, valuable treasures”. Both recorded and manually written history require a source of information, a transcriber, accurate information, previous knowledge, and an original information source. Oral history depends on the memory of the interviewee, as time passes the human memory fades as most oral history subjects are from events decades in the past. All sources contain specific objectives, at times more agreeable to a specific opinion or belief, but oral history provides an emotional, and special recollection of the event, also providing influential and accurate information.

The oral history interview of Stonewall veteran Roger Goodman addresses his experiences in the Stonewall Rebellion starting on June 28th, 1969 in Greenwich Village,

New York, which is the commonly overlooked foundation of the Gay Rights Movement.

In this time period, gays and other members of the LGBT community were constantly harassed by policemen, common people and repressed by laws, which were the main reasons for raids on bars such as the Stonewall Inn. In addition to Mr. Goodman’s recollection of his involvement in the rebellion, Mr. Goodman reflects on the oppressive regulations restricting gays and lesbians from expressing their true identities, the minimal efforts towards equality prior to the 1960’s, and Mr. Goodman’s opinion on why the rebellion began. Mr. Goodman denied the controversial belief that the rebellion resulted from Judy Garland’s death, “It happened because there was corruption and because there were all these rules and laws that kept us from being who we were back then” (Bernabei

9). Additional focus points were, the effect Stonewall had on the following AIDS break out, Mr. Goodman reflects on his individual battle with both HIV and AIDS, the

importance of the rebellion and how it allowed for the Gay Rights Movement to actually become a public fight. Mr. Goodman includes his belief that gays have “bought into the straight, materialistic corporate life of America”, failing to even know their history

(Bernabei 17). Lastly, the interview includes the significance of the rebellion and what it symbolizes for him.

The information collected from the interview with Stonewall veteran Roger

Goodman had significant insight into the momentous event that took place forty-six years ago as it delves into the life of a man having experienced discrimination and fighting for equality for fifty-one years and was involved in the most significant event that propelled the gay rights movement to where it is today. Not only was the interview important to record emotional recollections of the event, but also the interview provided accurate facts, which was important to compare it to the previous research done, like when discussing the different obstacles such as publicized regulations and foul actions against the gay community. In addition to providing accurate information compared to previous research, but the interview provided opinions and facts able to be compared to historians research and historiography. When reflecting on the first night, Mr. Goodman recalled how they chased the police “we would separate and go down side streets so that we were behind the police and they would turn around and come at us” (Bernabei 25), which was supported by an interview by Martin Duberman the rebels “doubled back behind the troopers, and pelted them with debris” (Duberman 200). Mr. Goodman was asked about a quote by historian John D’Emilio, “Before Stonewall there was no history of lesbians and gay men struggling for freedom, indeed before Stonewall there was no history other than a chronicle of unrelieved oppression?” Mr. Goodman reflects later saying that Stonewall

“symbolizes an end of shame, that’s the best way I can put it Gaby. It ended the shame that LGBT people lived with prior to Stonewall” (Bernabei 32). Although collecting his memories that were supported by previous research, and able to support historian’s research, the oral history allowed for a personal and emotional recollection that no author or other method of recording could provide.

While the interview has many strengths, there were a couple weaknesses posed by the interviewer. The interviewer did not organize the questions well and did not keep the interviewee on track the whole time. The interviewee did occasionally delve into some off topic recollections and completely changed the atmosphere. Each interview is different, and it’s important to remember that each interviewee will have a specific, biased opinion and experience. Historian Judith Moyner recounts, “Oral history is the systemic collection of living people’s testimony about their own experiences… stories of the people around you are unique, valuable treasures (Bernabei 39). In this particular interview, Mr. Goodman a Stonewall veteran recalled his experiences of the gay rights movement and in the Stonewall Rebellion, speaking for himself, no one else.

Generally I found this oral history project to be incredibly important for not only my own education but also the spread of knowledge to other people about an important event that not many people know about. This whole entire project could not have been done without the complete willingness of Mr. Goodman who provided me with answers to every question. I found this process to be difficult considering I was not prepared to lose my initial interviewee. It is important to remember that some people are more guarded about person events. In addition, I found the transcription to be a tedious experience. At times it was hard to understand phrases at a time, making it difficult to

transcribe correctly. I believe that the whole experience as a whole should be spread throughout the world. I now have an understanding of an event that I never would have discovered if it hadn’t been for this project. It is important to have basic skills like creating specific questions, analyzing previous research and being able to incorporate information into your personal paper. Having done research for different classes, and using different methods of finding information, I now realize after reading over the interview and having to do additional information, oral history is the most helpful form of documentation. This whole entire process has opened my eyes to another span of events and the different ways to examine information.

Appendix

Members of the Mattachine Society, photo by James Gruber

Five policemen attempt to arrest a man on the first night of the Stonewall Rebellion

Celebration after the rebellion outside of the Stonewall Inn

Stonewall Inn now

First Gay Pride/Liberation Day Parade in 1970

Works Consulted

Duberman, Martin B. Stonewall. New York, NY, U.S.A.: Dutton, 1993. Print.

Pharr, Suzanne. Homophobia: A Weapon of Sexism. Inverness, CA: Chardon, 1988. Print.

Rowse, A.L. "Homosexuals in History Paperback – May 30, 1997." Homosexuals in

History: A. L. Rowse: 9780786704231: Amazon.com: Books. Dorset Press, n.d.

Web. 03 Dec. 2014.

Sirius, R. U., and Dan Joy. Counterculture through the Ages: From Abraham to Acid

House. New York: Villard, 2005. Print.

Bender, Pennee. "What Is Oral History?" What Is Oral History? History Matters, 21 Oct.

2015. Web. 11 Feb. 2015.

Carr, Edward H. "What Is History?" What Is History? Reviews In History, n.d. Web. 18

Feb. 2015.

Carr, Edward H. "What Is History?" What Is History? Reviews In History, n.d. Web. 18

Feb. 2015.

Klein, Milton M. (n.d.): n. pag. Everyman His Own Historian: Carl Becker as

Histographer. The History Teacher, 1 Nov. 1985. Web. 11 Feb. 2015.

Moyer, Judith. Step-by-Step Guide to Oral History (n.d.): n. pag. Do History. History

Toolkit, 21 June 2005. Web. 11 Feb. 2015.

Ritchie, Donald. Doing Oral History. Oxford University Press, n.d. Web.