Wednesday Volume 550 12 September 2012 No. 42

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 12 September 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 263 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 264

be locking ourselves out of the potential for millions of House of Commons pounds-worth of work involving hundreds of jobs in Scotland, and that is not acceptable. Wednesday 12 September 2012 Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Does the Secretary of State agree that Scotland makes a magnificent The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock contribution not only in terms of manufacturing, as we heard from the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay PRAYERS Roy), but in terms of basing and recruitment? Will he welcome, with me, the fact that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence has gone to great lengths [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] to keep Scotland in the Union as regards defence, and does he agree that that would very probably be lost if BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS there were to be independence? Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely HILLSBOROUGH right to focus on what would be at stake were Scotland Resolved, to become independent and separate from the rest of That an Humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That the United Kingdom. The Scottish contribution to UK she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid defence is absolutely immense, but Scotland gets a huge before this House a Return of the Report, dated 12 September amount from being part of the UK. We are safer, and 2012, of the Hillsborough Independent Panel.—(Stephen Crabb.) we have more clout, as part of the United Kingdom, and I do not want to put any of that at risk.

Oral Answers to Questions Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): Since this Government took office, service personnel numbers are at a record low and commitments have been broken on returning troops from Germany, on facilities, and on the retention SCOTLAND of historic Scottish regiments. Is this totally embarrassing record the reason why the Secretary of State for Defence The Secretary of State was asked— has never even visited Scotland since taking office? Independence (Defence Industry) Michael Moore: If we are talking about embarrassment on defence policy, the hon. Gentleman should look to 1. Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab): What discussions his own party’s policies on these matters. In Scotland we he has had with the Secretary of State for Defence on have access to a UK defence budget of £34 billion—the the effect on Scottish-based defence jobs if Scotland fourth largest in the world. We have 15,500 service becomes an independent country. [119848] personnel and 40,000 people working in the defence industry in 800 different companies. That is an immense The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): contribution from UK defence to Scotland and from I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on Scotland to UK defence. defence matters relating to Scotland. There is no doubt that there would be far-reaching implications for all Angus Robertson: To correct the Secretary of State, sectors of the economy, including the defence industry, service personnel numbers are just over 10,000; I am should Scotland become independent. sure that he would want to amend the record on that. So the Secretary of State is not denying that the Lindsay Roy: I thank the Minister for his answer. I Secretary of State for Defence has not even been to am very proud of the immense defence work that has Scotland since taking office. The Defence Secretary was been undertaken in Fife—for example, at Raytheon in asked for a meeting in November last year. He was my constituency. The contribution to national security asked for a meeting in March this year and nothing has been immense. According to the Ministry of Defence, came of it. An offer was made of discussion through the new Type 26 frigate that is about to be commissioned the former Armed Forces Minister, the hon. Member will be the backbone of the Royal Navy for decades to for North Devon (Nick Harvey), when I met him and come. Can the Minister advise how likely it is, in the the joint chiefs of staff in June last year, but there has light of possible separation, that the frigates will be been no formal response from the Government since built in Scotland? then. Why is the Ministry of Defence so bad at dealing with Scotland? Michael Moore: I pay tribute to the hundreds of skilled workers in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency Michael Moore: I completely reject what the hon. who contribute so much to United Kingdom and, indeed, Gentleman has said. Defence Ministers, as well as the international defence through the work that they do at Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, my right hon. Raytheon and elsewhere, and I agree that this is not the Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and time to be putting that at risk. On the specifics of the Tweeddale (David Mundell) and I, have made regular Type 26, it is clear that if Scotland were an independent visits to different defence installations around Scotland; country, the rest of the UK would be applying European indeed, we have done so only in the past couple of Union procurement rules, which basically keep such weeks. I understand why the hon. Gentleman wants to contracts for the domestic market. We would therefore dodge the serious issue here. He does not want to focus 265 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 266 on the Scottish National party’s defence policy, particularly matters in Scotland. We would much rather that that the little trick it wants to pull on NATO. The SNP was also the view of the Scottish Government, rather knows that people want NATO security and defence, than their incessant focus on constitutional matters. but it wants to have a pick-and-mix approach—to take on the baubles of NATO and not the obligations. That Margaret Curran: I thank the Minister for that interesting just will not do. answer. Yesterday, in response to a question of mine, the Secretary of State seemed to have no grasp of the Common Agricultural Policy impact of rising food prices in Scotland. Last week, Save the Children launched its first appeal to fund its 3. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): What discussions work in Scotland, revealing that a quarter of parents he has had with his ministerial colleagues on reform of have less than £30 a week to spend on food, and the common agricultural policy as it affects Scotland. Citizens Advice Scotland tells us that applications for [119850] support for food and other basics has doubled. We all know, just as the Minister has indicated, that that is a 14. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): result of the choices that he and his Cabinet colleagues When he last met the Scottish Government’s Agriculture have made. Are he and the Secretary of State proud that Minister to discuss the common agricultural policy; food banks are fast becoming the hallmark of his and if he will make a statement. [119861] Government in Scotland?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell: The hon. Lady was not present at this (David Mundell): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of week’s reception at Dover house, where many of the State and I have frequent discussions with ministerial leading stakeholders on child poverty, including Save colleagues on common agricultural policy reform. I last the Children, were in attendance and there was a significant met UK and Scottish agriculture Ministers during the discussion about the issue. She can be assured that both royal highland show. the Secretary of State and I take these issues very seriously. Neil Carmichael: With the difficulties in the harvest this year, rising commodity prices and an interest in Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): The increasing productivity and production in the world of so-called greening measures proposed for the new CAP agriculture, will those talks focus on the need to recalibrate have caused consternation throughout the farming the common agricultural policy towards our production community. In a recent National Farmers Union survey, and food costs and prices? almost three quarters of those surveyed thought that they would have an adverse environmental impact; half David Mundell: We are in agreement with the Scottish thought that they would harm biodiversity; and all of Government that the common agricultural policy and, them thought that it would cause financial problems for indeed, policies pursued by both Governments, should their business. What is the Minister doing to make sure seek to maximise food production in Scotland. that those measures do not form part of the new CAP?

Miss McIntosh: Will the Minister assure us that he David Mundell: The Government are aware of those will be heavily involved in reforms to the common concerns, not just in Scotland, but throughout the rest agricultural policy and that, once agreed, they will of the United Kingdom, and the Environment, Food apply equally to Scotland, England and all parts of the and Rural Affairs Committee, chaired by my hon. Friend UK, particularly with regard to cross-compliance measures? the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), has reported to that effect. The Government will seek to David Mundell: The Government have shown by their do all they can to minimise the impact of such greening actions that they are committed to involving not just measures, if they are adopted. the Scottish Government, but all the devolved Administrations in developing the UK position on the Olympic and Paralympic Games CAP reform negotiations, and that will continue to be our position. 4. Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven Margaret Curran (Glasgow East) (Lab): I am sure and Lesmahagow) (Lab): What assessment he has made that everyone in the House will agree that the current of the effect on the Scottish economy of the London negotiations in Europe may have a significant impact 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games. [119851] on food prices, especially at a time when Scottish families are under such pressure from rising food prices. Precisely 6. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) what correspondence or meetings have the Minister and (Lab/Co-op): What recent assessment he has made of Secretary of State had with other ministerial colleagues the effect on Scotland of the London 2012 Olympic to discuss this issue facing Scottish families? and Paralympic games. [119853]

David Mundell: The Secretary of State and I have had The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): a range of meetings with colleagues across Government A total of £33 million worth of Olympic and Paralympic and in the Scottish Government to address not just the contracts were awarded to businesses in Scotland. Businesses CAP reforms, but issues such as the cost of living and will also have benefited from the hugely popular events the economic policies being pursued in Scotland. As the that took place in Scotland. The games have been very hon. Lady well knows, our view is that the Scottish and successful and provide a great springboard for the Glasgow UK Governments should be working together on economic Commonwealth games in 2014. 267 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 268

Mr McCann: The Olympic and Paralympic games Michael Moore: There are occasions when the hon. show how great sporting events can be used to regenerate Lady and I have differences of opinion, but we are at large parts of our cities and their surrounding areas. one on this issue. She is absolutely right. I am sure that Will the Secretary of State ensure that the lessons from people across the House will accept that being Scottish London 2012 about regeneration and legacy are shared and being British—all these things—can be done at the with the organisers of Glasgow’s Commonwealth games? same time.

Michael Moore: The hon. Gentleman has focused on Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): exactly the right issue—legacy. When congratulating all The Scottish National party would like to take this the Scots and others who participated in the Olympics opportunity, too, to congratulate Andy Murray on a and Paralympics, we are reminded of this summer’s fantastic win. The whole of Scotland and the UK is great festival of sport and its fantastic outcomes. Apart celebrating that magnificent success. I am sure that the from inspiring a generation—obviously, that is already Secretary of State will agree that we must look beyond under way—what matters is that we get regeneration in the mixed economic impact and appreciate the huge lift the regions around London and across the UK. I believe that the games gave to Scotland. All of Scotland was that the economic legacy will be strong, and I hope that cheering on Team GB. We supported our Scottish athletes the lessons from London will be learnt in Glasgow as as well as those from right across the UK. Team GB was well. Scotland’s team, and it was great that they did so well. Will he assure me, however, that he will work as closely Tom Greatrex: During the Olympic games, I was as possible with the Scottish Government to ensure that privileged to be a games-maker at Hampden, along we secure the maximum economic benefits from the with people from many different backgrounds volunteering Glasgow Commonwealth games? for the first time. The Secretary of State has discussions with the Scottish Government on many different issues, Michael Moore: On a personal level, I agree that the but will he urge the organisers of the 2014 Commonwealth hon. Gentleman has consistently supported Scots and games to take the best from that volunteer programme other GB Olympians and Paralympians—although that to ensure that many people can get involved in Glasgow has not always been the tenor of contributions from all 2014 in the same way? in his party. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) Michael Moore: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, said, the term “Scolympian” did not exactly get carried whom I saw in the games-maker uniform and who was high after the First Minister coined it. The hon. Gentleman’s very helpful when I visited Hampden for the United point about legacy is important, but with the Chief States versus France women’s football game—clearly he Secretary and others we have already been working has talents for things other than politics. He makes an closely with the organisers of the Commonwealth games important point. The volunteering legacy is one of the to ensure that they are a fantastic success. The London most important parts of the games—perhaps one of the Olympics have created a great platform from which to more unexpected parts—and I hope that that legacy do that. will be evident in Glasgow in two years and that people across the whole of Scotland will take part. Post Offices Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): Would my right hon. Friend like to take the opportunity to 5. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): What recent congratulate that Scottish gold medallist, Mr Andy discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues Murray, on his remarkable marathon triumph in the on the Government contracting services to post offices US? Has he noticed that the term “Scolympian”, coined in Scotland. [119852] by the Scottish First Minister, appears rapidly to have fallen into disuse? Also, has he heard of any Scottish The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): competitors selected either for the Olympics or Paralympics, Ministerial colleagues and I regularly discuss issues or any medallist in either games, complaining that they regarding post office services in Scotland and we recognise were representing the United Kingdom, not Scotland? the importance of maintaining the network. That is why the Government have committed funding of Michael Moore: I join my right hon. and learned £1.34 billion to secure its long-term future. Friend in congratulating Andy Murray on his Olympic gold medal and on securing his first grand slam title—an Mr Reid: The Post Office has delivered Driver and immense achievement that is being celebrated the length Vehicle Licensing Agency services—including car tax and breadth of the country. The Olympic games renewal—well for many years, and it is trusted and demonstrated the great benefits of working together, supported by the public. Does the Secretary of State whether in terms of financing, training or, indeed, agree that the DVLA contract should not simply be competing—our first Olympic gold was won by a Scot handed over to the cheapest bidder, and that when and somebody from the south-west of England. That deciding to whom to give the contract, the high quality was great and perhaps makes the point that we are of service delivered by the Post Office for many years better together. should be given a high weighting?

Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Would the Michael Moore: May I put my hon. Friend’s question Secretary of State like to clarify further that there is no in context? We ended the compulsory closure programme conflict between being Scottish and being British, and that we inherited from the Labour party, which saw that millions of reasonable people in the UK and all 5,000 post offices close over a seven-year period, including over the world live happily as both? more than 400 in Scotland. We are investing in the post 269 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 270 office network to ensure that it is sustainable. As the David Mundell: The Government continue to consider hon. Gentleman will know, the DVLA contract must be the position in the rest of the United Kingdom, and conducted under EU procurement rules, and it is about before any proposals are introduced in England and not only the cost but other important criteria such as Wales, there will be an extensive consultation. customer service and security of supply. We will ensure that all those objective tests are met. 12. [119859] Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): Sadly, one of the problems that can arise Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): from alcohol misuse concerns people getting into trouble One in five post offices in Scotland is under threat of in Scotland’s coastal waters. Is the Minister aware that closure because of this Government’s policies. The there will be a delay of 15 months between the closure nationalists criticise that, but they have scrapped the of the Clyde coastguard and the maritime operations post office diversification fund, which shows them to be centre being up and running? Is he as concerned as I am no better than the Secretary of State and his friends. If about the safety implications of that? a post office does not accept parcels, cash deposits or withdrawals, and does not provide DVLA services, is it David Mundell: As the hon. Lady will know, although a post office? Is the Secretary of State happy to sit idly there are changes to the management arrangements of by while the Tories and the nationalists destroy our post coastguard operation centres, the same local volunteers, office network? lifeboats and helicopters will remain in the coastal waters of Scotland. There will be no change, and it is Michael Moore: May I welcome the hon. Gentleman wrong to suggest otherwise. on his debut at the Dispatch Box? He has a strong track record in Scottish politics, and I look forward to the Trade Unions (Blacklisting) debates that we will have over the months and years ahead. It was, however, quite a cheek to lead with that 8. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) question, not least because—as I said in an earlier (Lab): How many publicly funded projects in Scotland reply—it was the Labour Government who closed 5,000 have been undertaken by firms which engage in post offices across the UK, including more than 400 in blacklisting against trade union members. [119855] Scotland. We want to see a sustainable network. We are investing in that and are determined to ensure that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland services across the country go through the Post Office. (David Mundell): Information on this is not held centrally. Regulations were introduced in 2010 to outlaw trade Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Is the Secretary of union blacklisting in the UK. We welcome the Scottish State aware that since 2005, the level of Government Affairs Committee’s inquiry into blacklisting in services that go through post offices has fallen from half employment, and encourage all hon. Members and to a fifth? Losing the DVLA contract would have a interested parties to feed their views into the inquiry. dramatic effect and possibly lead to the closure of many more post offices. If the Government cannot do anything Jim Sheridan: I thank the Minister for his response. I, about that, what is the point of saying that the Post too, commend the Scottish Affairs Committee’s inquiry. Office should be the front office of Government? If there is tangible evidence that Government contracts are being awarded to companies that are engaging in Michael Moore: I share the hon. Gentleman’s desire blacklisting trade unionists, will those contracts be reviewed? to see a sustainable post office network. Over the past two years we have reversed the previous Government’s David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman is a strong damaging policies, and we are committed to significant campaigner on this issue. As I said in my original further investment in the network. I do not, however, answer, I suggest he put that view to the Scottish Affairs see the same level of support coming from his colleagues Committee so it can form part of its report. We will in the Scottish Parliament. certainly take its report very seriously.

Minimum Alcohol Price John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): Talk is cheap, but what would the Minister actually do? He 7. John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): What assessment must know that blacklistings are happening today. What his Department has made of the introduction of a 50p will his Government do if we identify people who are per unit fixed minimum alcohol price in Scotland. doing it? What will he do? [119854] David Mundell: In the first instance, the 2010 regulations The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland provide a route for individuals who believe they have (David Mundell): Alcohol abuse harms individuals, families been blacklisted. As I said in my previous answer, the and communities throughout the United Kingdom. evidence sessions being held by the Scottish Affairs Clearly, a range of responses is required to address the Committee are a good way of reviewing how those problem, and the Government continue to engage with regulations and other laws are working in that regard. the Scottish Government on the issue of minimum unit We will take its report very seriously. pricing. Public Expenditure John Stevenson: Given that this policy has the potential to affect my constituency of Carlisle, what measures are 9. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What the Government taking to introduce proposals for minimum recent estimate he has made of public expenditure per alcohol pricing in England and Wales? head of population in Scotland. [119856] 271 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 272

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): Since this question was last asked in February, no new I am glad you called the new Member for West Lothian, official figures have been published. The most recent Mr Speaker—I inherited Tam Dalyell’s question. The estimate of the level of public expenditure in Scotland, new question, clearly, is how many questions should published in October 2011, shows that the level of there be in the referendum in Scotland? In my constituency, public expenditure in Scotland was £10,165 per head for they say it should be one: do people want to separate the year 2010-11. from the rest of the UK or stay in the UK? Does the Secretary of State agree? Mr Bone: I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. Ten thousand pounds per year on average is Michael Moore: I completely agree with the hon. paid by taxpayers to people in Scotland, but in my Gentleman that there should be only one question on constituency and the rest of the east midlands it is the ballot paper. £8,000 per person. Is that fair? Olympic and Paralympic Games Michael Moore: The last time my hon. Friend raised this point, it followed a discussion with Mrs Bone and 11. Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): What involvement other members of the family. I appreciate that she is his Department had with the London 2012 Olympic otherwise distracted getting herself ready for this weekend’s and Paralympic games; and if he will make a charity run, for which the whole House will wish her all statement. [119858] the best. I regret that when she focuses back on politics, the answer she will hear is very little different from the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland one I gave a few months ago, namely that our priority is (David Mundell): I refer my hon. Friend to the answer to sort out the public finances and the mess we inherited the Secretary of State gave to a previous question. from the Labour party. We are focused on that relentlessly, and any future review must wait until it is completed. Mark Menzies: Does my right hon. Friend not agree that after a summer of sporting success, the last thing that the people of this country want is to see Team GB Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) torn apart? (SNP): It is a fact that Barnett spending was higher in both Northern Ireland and London than Scotland. David Mundell: I could not agree more. The success Does the Minister know that Scotland has 8.4% of the of Team GB at both the Olympics and the Paralympics UK population, but pays 9.6% of UK taxation and is has been celebrated as much in Scotland as in any other more than paying its own way? part of the United Kingdom.

Michael Moore: I agree with one part of the hon. Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): Gentleman’s observation, namely that spending around Does the Minister agree that one of the great successes the UK varies considerably. We need to take all spending of the Olympic games was the role played by London’s into account as we assess the situation. As for believing Mayor? I wonder what will happen to him in the future. the Scottish National party’s figures, we must continue Does the Minister also agree that when we come to the to agree to differ. games in Glasgow, it is essential that they are run by the city of Glasgow and that we do not have nationalist West Lothian Question politicians trying to muscle in?

David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman will know that 10. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What the Mayor of London is a great supporter of Scotland recent discussions he has had with the Deputy Prime and the Commonwealth games, and of ensuring that Minister on the West Lothian question. [119857] the legacy from the Olympics is carried into the Commonwealth games in Glasgow. The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore): I am in regular contact with my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister on a range of issues. When the commission on the consequences of devolution for PRIME MINISTER the House of Commons has concluded, we will have an opportunity to discuss its findings and its official report. The Prime Minister was asked— Mr Hollobone: Is the Secretary of State confident Engagements that the commission will report on time in spring 2013? Is he also confident that it will bring forward meaningful Q1. [120385] Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): If he will proposals when it reports, and not just another list his official engagements for Wednesday 12 September. recommendation for another commission or inquiry to kick the question further into the long grass? The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute Michael Moore: These are very serious issues. That is to Guardsman Karl Whittle of 1st Battalion Grenadier why we have the expert commission looking very seriously Guards, who died on Friday from wounds that he at them. The commission has a cross-section of experts, sustained in Afghanistan in August, and to Sergeant representing all parts of the UK. All in government Lee Davidson of the Light Dragoons. These were look forward to its findings and to debating them. courageous and much respected men. They gave their 273 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 274 lives in the service of our country. We remember their Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I join the friends and their loved ones, and we are for ever indebted Prime Minister in paying tribute to Guardsman Karl to them. Whittle of 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards and Sergeant I am sure the House will also join me in welcoming Lee Davidson of the Light Dragoons. Both showed the the renaming of the Clock Tower today as the Elizabeth utmost courage and bravery and our thoughts are with Tower, following the campaign led by my hon. Friend all their family and friends. the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood). I I also join the Prime Minister in celebrating the believe it is a fitting tribute to Her Majesty the Queen renaming today of the Clock Tower as the Elizabeth and the incredible service she has given to our country Tower, which was done with all-party support and is a for 60 years. fitting tribute to the service Her Majesty the Queen has This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues shown to our country. and others, and I shall have further such meetings, in The fall in unemployment today is welcome, but all of addition to my duties in the House today. us will be concerned that the number of people out of work for more than a year stands at 904,000, the highest Chris Bryant: I, too, pay tribute to our troops who level for 17 years. Does the Prime Minister agree with have died. We often vote for war in this House, but it is me that that is a particularly troubling statistic, because far braver people than we who have to do the fighting. the longer someone is out of work, the harder it is for The number of women who have lost their jobs under them to get back into it and the more damage is done to the Government’s cuts has been twice that of men, and them, their families and, indeed, our economy? the statistics out today show that the number of female redundancies has been rising over the last few months. The Prime Minister: I absolutely agree with the right In addition, we now have nine Departments with not a hon. Gentleman about the dangers and the threat of single woman Minister. Now, I know the Prime Minister long-term unemployment. I think it is worth putting in likes to think of himself as butch—[Interruption]—he front of the House the full figures today, because not told us so last week in this very House—but what has he everyone will have seen them: unemployment is down got against women? by 7,000 and employment is up by 236,000 over the quarter. I think this is significant because it is a real-time, The Prime Minister: The unemployment statistics live figure: the claimant count, the number of people today actually have a number of very encouraging claiming unemployment benefit, in August was down figures in them, including the fact that women’s by 15,000. As I have just said, when we look at the employment—the number of women in employment—is number of private sector jobs, which is vital when we actually up 128,000 this quarter, with 250,000 more need to rebalance the economy, we see that there were women in work than at the time of the last election. I over 1 million net new private sector jobs over the past think that is encouraging. Obviously the way that we two years. He is absolutely right that the long-term have treated public sector pay—the public sector pay unemployment figure is disturbing. That is what the freeze and, in particular, protecting low-paid people in Work programme is designed to deal with. We have got the public sector—has actually helped women, but do the Work programme up and running within a year, it we need to do more to help women into work? Yes. Do has already helped 690,000 people, and the key part of we need to do more to help with child care? Yes. Do we it is that for those who are hardest to help—people who need to help encourage more women into politics and are on the incapacity-style benefits and have also been see more women at a higher level? Yes to that as well. long-term unemployed—we pay their training providers more to help them into work, and that is the key for Q2. [120386] Lorraine Fullbrook (South Ribble) (Con): dealing with this problem in the time ahead. Local businesses and industrious people in my constituency of South Ribble are working hard and playing their part to aid the recovery of the economy. Will my right Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman talks hon. Friend the Prime Minister join me in condemning about the Work programme, but not only is long-term the irresponsible threats of co- ordinated strike action unemployment at its highest level for nearly two decades, by the trade unions, which will do nothing but undermine but over the past 12 months we have seen a 247% rise in the efforts of my constituents? the number of young people who have been on the dole for over a year, and that is happening throughout the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely country. Is that not the clearest evidence so far that his right to speak up for her constituents who work hard Work programme is just not working? and do the right thing. Today’s unemployment figures show an extra 1 million net private sector jobs since the The Prime Minister: I do not accept that. First of all, election, which is something that shows our economy is on the youth unemployment picture, it is disappointing rebalancing. However, she is right to say that the trade that youth unemployment is up 7,000 over the quarter, unions provide a threat to our economy. Since the right but of course the youth unemployment figures include hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) young people in full-time education. If we look at the became leader of the Labour party, it has received picture for the number of young people in work—youth £12 million from the three unions that are now threatening employment—we see that it is actually up 48,000 over a general strike. They threatened a strike to stop our the quarter, so that is a more encouraging picture. In fuel supplies; they threatened a strike to disrupt the terms of the youth contract itself, that is now up and Olympics; now they threaten a strike to wreck the running. Around 65,000 young people have taken part economy. When the right hon. Gentleman stands up, I in work experience programmes, which were criticised think it is time for him to say that he will take no more by some people sitting opposite and some trade unions, money from the unions while they make this threat. but actually within 21 weeks half of them have been 275 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 276 taken off the unemployment register and have proper The Prime Minister: This is an economy that has work. That is very encouraging, because it actually generated 1 million new private sector jobs. I know the means that it is about 20 times more cost-effective than right hon. Gentleman does not want to talk about the future jobs fund it replaced. predistribution, but I have done a little work and I can tell him about his new guru. His new guru, the man who Edward Miliband: I have to say to the right hon. invented predistribution, is called—and I am not making Gentleman that to all the young people across the this up—[Interruption.] They do not want to hear country looking for work that sounds like a rather —[Interruption.] complacent answer. The reality is that, because of his failure on long-term unemployment, borrowing—the Mr Speaker: Order. Members on both sides of the key test he set himself—was up 25% in the first four House need to calm down. Let us hear the Prime months of this year. He borrowed £9.3 billion more in Minister’s answer. the first four months of this year than last year. That is £1.6 million in the hour of Prime Minister’s questions. The Prime Minister: I am surprised that Labour We gather today that the Government might miss the Members do not want to hear about their new guru. He overriding economic test he set himself, which is that is called Mr J Hacker, and Mr J Hacker’s recommendation debt will be falling at the time of the next election. Is it is that we spend an extra £200 billion and borrow an not a fact that he is failing the very test he set himself, extra £200 billion in this Parliament. From the work I and is that not the surest sign yet that his plan is just not have done, I have discovered his new book: it is published working? by Princeton University Press and it is called “The Road to Nowhere”. The right hon. Gentleman does not The Prime Minister: First of all, there is absolutely no need to read it; he is there already. complacency in this Government over either the issue of youth employment or the issue of long-term unemployment. That is why we are putting so much energy and effort Edward Miliband: Let me compliment the Prime Minister into the apprenticeship programme. We have seen 457,000 on such a butch answer. What a week it has been for apprenticeship starts in the last year, which is a record Mr Butch: he has briefed against the new International figure and something we want to build on in the years Development Secretary, the former Transport Secretary; ahead, with £1.5 billion invested. The right hon. Gentleman he was knocking back the claret while sacking the raises the issue of borrowing. This Government in the Welsh Secretary; and the Environment Secretary was last two years have cut the deficit by a quarter. I have to sacked because she was too old—and replaced by a man say that, if he is concerned about borrowing, why does who was older! That was very butch. The reality is this: he have plans to put it up? There are many ways to between now and April the Prime Minister is going to reduce borrowing, but the one way it cannot be done is have to answer the question—he has not answered it by increasing spending and increasing borrowing, which yet—whether he is going to get the top-rate tax cut, is what he tells us to do. which is a tax cut for millionaires by millionaires. The reality is that the Government’s plan is failing, they stand up for the wrong people, and plan A is not Edward Miliband: The reality that this Prime Minister working—he should change course. cannot get away from after two and a half years is that borrowing is rising on his watch. That is the reality: borrowing is up 25%—£9.3 billion—in the first four The Prime Minister: On a day when we hear that this months of this year. When the Prime Minister gets up economy has created 1 million net new private sector to reply, perhaps he can tell us whether this morning’s jobs, all we have learnt from the Labour party is that it reports—that the Government will not meet their target has learnt nothing. Labour is still committed to the to have debt falling by the end of this Parliament—are spending, the borrowing and the debt that got us into correct, or whether he will stick to the promise. The this mess in the first place. That is the truth, and it reality is that he is failing the tests he set himself, and it cannot hide it from the British public. shows that plan A is not working. Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): The Prime Minister: It is this Government who have This year is the 10th anniversary of Breast Cancer cut the deficit we inherited by a quarter. That is what we Campaign’s “Wear it Pink” day. We have seen many have done in two years. Normally, at this stage in the improvements for breast cancer sufferers over that time, proceedings, I say that the Labour party has no plans, but there is still much more to be done, including but on this occasion I can reassure the House that it has, improving early identification of this disease for all and the new plan is called predistribution. What I think ages. Will the Prime Minister meet the chairs of the that means is that we spend the money before we all-party parliamentary group on breast cancer and the actually get it, which I think the right hon. Gentleman leading charities for further discussion? will find is why we are in the mess we are in right now. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Edward Miliband: I will tell the Prime Minister what right to raise this issue, and I shall be very happy to have this is about. It is about having an economy that works that meeting. I think that we have made big leaps not just for a few at the top, but for everyone else. It is forward under Governments of all parties in advancing not about a Prime Minister who cuts taxes for millionaires the agenda on breast cancer. My hon. Friend is right to while raising taxes for everyone else. When he gets up to say that early identification—early diagnosis—is vital, reply, perhaps he can answer the question that he has but there is still more to be done. I pay tribute to the not answered so far—is he going to be a beneficiary of thousands up and down our country who not only wear the 50p tax cut? those ribbons but take part in so many different campaigns, 277 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 278 so much fundraising and so much awareness-raising, evidence base, and support for patient choice. The hon. and I shall be delighted to welcome my hon. Friend to Gentleman is right to raise the issue, but that is how it that meeting. should be approached.

Q3. [120387] Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): Mr Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis and Littlehampton) Rochdale is proud of its strong links with the Royal (Con): Barbara Haddon from Felpham in Bognor Regis Regiment of Fusiliers. We now know that the decision has crumbling vertebrae, is in constant pain, and can to axe its second battalion was made by Ministers, not walk only short distances. She is 87 years old. She by the professional leadership of the Army. Given that recently applied for the renewal of her blue badge, but, morale is at an all-time low in the armed forces, why like many other constituents who have written to me, will the Prime Minister not reconsider? she was turned down because of the way in which the The Prime Minister: These are obviously very difficult new national blue badge improvement service is being decisions, as we move towards a regular Army of 82,000 implemented locally. Will the Prime Minister intervene and an expanded Territorial Army of 30,000. Clearly to ensure that the scheme is implemented fairly and we had proper discussions—and it is for Ministers as appropriately throughout the country? well as the armed forces to make the decisions—about how best to structure that Army to maintain as many The Prime Minister: I will look very carefully at the cap badges and historic regiments as possible throughout case that my hon. Friend has raised, because I think it the United Kingdom. That is how we reached those important for this reform to be carried out properly. I decisions, and we defend those decisions, but if people think that all of us, as constituency MPs, receive two want to come forward with alternatives, we will of sorts of complaints. Some are from those who have seen course always listen to them. people who have the blue badge and do not merit it, while others are from those who want the blue badge Q4. [120388] John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): Does the and deserve it, but cannot obtain it. Prime Minister agree that the improvement in the While I am at the Dispatch Box, let me pay tribute to balance-of-trade figures is very welcome, and my hon. Friend for his long-standing work on educational demonstrates that we can rebalance our economy by standards and his belief in true rigour in schools. He expanding our trade with the rest of the world as well has seen many of his ideas put into practice, and that is as with Europe? what we come into politics to achieve. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has made an Q6. [120390] Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) important point. The trade figures that were published (Lab): The Adam Werritty affair should have taught yesterday showed the biggest cash decline in the trade Ministers important lessons about becoming too close deficit for 20 years. As I have said many times at this to their outside advisers. Now it appears that the Prime Dispatch Box, we face great economic difficulties in this Minister’s climate change Minister, the hon. Member country and across Europe, but we are seeing a rebalancing for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), may be of the economy, and the growth in private sector making similar mistakes. Given media reports today, employment that I have talked about. Manufacturing does the Prime Minister have the same complete now accounts for a growing rather than a shrinking confidence in his climate change Minister as he had in share of the economy. There has been a big increase in his former Defence Secretary? exports, particularly exports to the fastest-growing parts of the world. We need more of that to happen, alongside small businesses creation and activity by entrepreneurs, The Prime Minister: The climate change Minister is if we are to rebalance our economy and make it stronger doing an excellent job; I want to put that on the record. for the future. I have consulted with the Cabinet Secretary, and both he and the permanent secretary at the Department of Q5. [120389] Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) Energy and Climate Change have examined the issue, (Lab): Before the election, the Prime Minister promised and I do not see the need for a further inquiry on that a moratorium on hospital closures. Last year he told basis. The key point I would make is that the individual me that Ealing hospital would not close without the in question was hired by civil servants after a properly support of doctors and patients, so why are the doctors run competition. and patients having to march next Saturday to keep our hospitals open? Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con): This month marks the 40th anniversary of the expulsion The Prime Minister: Let me say again to the hon. of Asians from Uganda by Idi Amin. They came to this Gentleman—who is quite right to raise the issue—that country with nothing but the clothes on their backs, but there are no plans to close Ealing hospital. I understand they picked themselves up and soon integrated themselves that Ealing Hospital NHS Trust is planning a £4 million into the fabric of Britain. Will my right hon. Friend the capital programme for 2012-13, which includes refurbishing Prime Minister join me in commending this community some wards. The trust’s proposed merger with North and the Conservative Government of the time, who West London Hospitals NHS Trust is a matter for the took the courageous decision to let them in, notwithstanding trusts themselves. the enormous opposition in the House and the country It is clear that the reconfiguration of front-line health at large? services is a matter for the NHS, but, as the hon. Gentleman and other Members know, any proposed The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely changes in clinical services must be subject to the four right to raise this topic. The Asians who have come tests of support from GP commissioners, strengthened from Kenya and Uganda have made an extraordinary public and patient engagement, clarity on the clinical contribution to this country, and it was absolutely the 279 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 280 right decision to welcome them here, as happened in the people surviving on $1 a day in sub-Saharan Africa—as 1970s. Those who opposed it were, I believe, profoundly long as we respect the differences between those sorts of wrong. I would also say to my hon. Friend, who is from poverty—I think it is absolutely right that non-governmental that background, what an incredible achievement it is organisations, charities and voluntary groups campaign within one generation for someone from that background on poverty issues here in the UK as well as overseas. to come to Parliament and make such a distinguished contribution. Q9. [120393] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): In a Commons debate last year on rural broadband, I Q7. [120391] Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): highlighted how poor the service is in Pendle, including Last week’s reshuffle was clearly a painful experience in the village of Newchurch, which might be unique in for many, but can the Prime Minister advise us why he the country in having a particularly poor service when recommended knighthoods for five of his redundant it rains. So does the Prime Minister share my joy at male Ministers, when there was “nothing like a dame” plans this week to cut the red tape that is holding back on offer for his sacked female Ministers? the roll-out of superfast broadband, which is so desperately needed for businesses in Pendle and across The Prime Minister: I take the view that when people the UK? come into public life, work hard in opposition and in government and make a contribution, we should recognise that. It should not only be permanent secretaries who The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend receive these honours; we should also be prepared to in his campaign to make sure that all our rural communities honour Ministers who have worked hard and have have access to superfast broadband. It is not just an served their country. issue of money, and this Government are putting the money in; there are also planning issues to address, Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con) rose— because some councils have held up giving permission [Interruption.] for the necessary cabinets and other things that have to be put in place at street and village level. That is why Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must be heard. our planning reforms, announced by my right hon. Friend the Communities Secretary, are going to sweep Penny Mordaunt: Our armed forces are always willing away that bureaucracy so that we can get broadband to do what we ask of them without complaint, but there everywhere. will be a detrimental impact on individuals’ training, deployment opportunities and rest and recuperation if Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): Despite we ask them to keep this country going in the face of the Prime Minister’s recent valiant efforts, does he not strikes. Is that not another reason why the unions realise that denying thousands of our disabled constituents should think again? adequate levels of benefit is merely underlining the fact that the Tories really are the nasty party? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, and I hope the trade unions who are The Prime Minister: I simply do not accept even the meeting and discussing this appalling idea of a general premise of the right hon. Gentleman’s question. The strike do think again, and think of the good of our fact is that we are not cutting the money that is going economy rather than their own selfish interests. into disability benefits. The question is how best to My hon. Friend makes an important point about our reform those disability benefits so that disabled people armed services, and it is right to put on record again actually get access to the benefits that they require. I what a fantastic job they did in the Olympics and think that anyone who has looked at disability living Paralympics, stepping up to the plate and putting such a allowance or who has had to fill in the forms knows that friendly and smiling face on our games. From everything it needs reform. The reform has been led by many of the I saw at the Olympic games, our armed services were disability groups, which want to see something that is pleased to play that role, and I know that there are times much more related to people’s disability and faster to when we can call upon them and they will be pleased to access, too. serve.

Q10. [120394] Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): Will my Q8. [120392] Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): Many of us are shocked and saddened that child right hon. Friend join me in celebrating a major inward poverty in the UK has become so severe and investment by the Chinese firm Huawei, which is widespread that Save the Children has found it investing £1.3 billion over five years to create 700 jobs necessary to launch its first ever appeal for British in the UK? Will he encourage it to come to Wycombe? children. Unfortunately, Members on the Government Benches saw fit to attack Save the Children and even The Prime Minister: I am delighted to say that I accused it of publicity-seeking. Will the Prime Minister welcome the investment by Huawei and I met its founder take this opportunity to distance himself from those and chairman yesterday at No. 10 Downing street. It is comments, and support the report that led to this a significant investment of £1.5 billion. I am afraid to appeal? tell my hon. Friend that some of the jobs are going to be created—I very much hope—in Banbury, next to my The Prime Minister: I am a strong supporter of Save constituency, but with an investment of this scale I am the Children; I think it does an excellent job. As long as sure that there will be opportunities around the rest of we recognise that the sort of poverty we tragically still the country. The firm is coming here not for the weather, have in Britain is very different from the poverty of but because we have highly trained engineers, we have 281 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Oral Answers 282 excellent universities, we have a leading role in the Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Following the recent telecoms and mobile industries, and it thinks that this is reshuffle, there has been speculation in the press that a Government who are open to business. some new appointments indicate a shift away from our green agenda—[Interruption.] Will my right hon. Friend Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): Will take this opportunity to scotch those scurrilous allegations the Prime Minister explain why in the previous Parliament and reaffirm our commitment to being the greenest Members of either House who were shown to have Government ever? deliberately abused the expenses system were, quite rightly, forced to face the full rigour of the law, whereas The Prime Minister: I congratulate the hon. Lady on in this Parliament the same proven dishonesty results in her new role in the Treasury. She has every ability to the restoration of ministerial office and a seat at the ensure that the Government deliver on our green Cabinet table? commitments. What I would say to her and all our right hon. Friends is that it is this Government who set up a green investment bank with £3 billion to spend and this The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman may be Government who have committed £1 billion to carbon referring to the Minister for Schools, my right hon. capture and storage. We have the first incentive scheme Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr Laws), who is attending anywhere in the world for renewable heat, we are putting Cabinet and is a Minister of State in the Department money into low emission vehicles, we have the mass for Education. He made very clear the mistakes that he roll-out of smart meters and we are also the first made in terms of the expenses system, he resigned from Government to introduce a carbon floor price. Those the Government and I think you should— are all steps of a Government committed to the green agenda. Mr Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister’s answer must be heard. Q13. [120397] Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): In 1993, the chairman of the Conservative party, The Prime Minister: As I have said in relation to this Norman Fowler, said that if the £365,000 given to the in the past, I do think that it is right to give someone a Tories by Asil Nadir was stolen, that money would second chance. clearly be returned. Now that Asil Nadir has been convicted of theft, does the Prime Minister agree with Q11. [120395] Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): Does his party’s former treasurer, Lord McAlpine, that it is my right hon. Friend agree with Kevin O’Toole, the tainted money that shames the Conservatives and that managing director of Eurocraft Enclosures Ltd in they have a moral duty to give it back? When will the Dudley, who contacted me about the Government’s Prime Minister go in his pocket and get the cheque plans to sweep away unnecessary health and safety red book out? tape to say: The Prime Minister: I have not seen the evidence for “At last years and years of regulation are being replaced by a that. What I would say to the hon. Gentleman, however, simple concept called common sense”? is this: what about the £12 million that his party has Is it not common sense to remove the headache of taken from the trade unions that are threatening to inspections for low-risk businesses? Is not scrapping bring this country to its knees? unnecessary and unpredictable inspections a valuable piece of deregulation that will help more small businesses Q14. [120398] Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): The to grow? Government—[Interruption.]

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely Mr Speaker: Order. The House must calm down, as I right to highlight this. We have 3,000 regulations in our want to hear Mr Menzies. sights that we believe can be radically scaled down or reduced, and we have made good progress already. We Mark Menzies: The Government do aspire to be the also believe that there is more we can do to exempt greenest Government ever, so, with that in mind, will particularly small firms from regulation, and the new the Prime Minister assure me that before any decision is Ministers in the Department for Business, Innovation taken to extract shale gas from Fylde there will be both and Skills will be pressing ahead, with the full support a public consultation and the establishment of an of the Secretary of State, on this very important agenda. independent body to co-ordinate a gold standard of regulation so that the environment is never compromised?

Q12. [120396] Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) The Prime Minister: As my hon. Friend will know, all (Lab): Four years ago, the Prime Minister gave his fracking operations for shale gas have been suspended support to High Speed 2 as providing an alternative to while we study the minor tremors that occurred in short-haul flights and therefore to a third runway at Blackpool last year. The Royal Academy of Engineering Heathrow. As he is now dithering over Heathrow, is he and the Royal Society have produced a full independent also dithering over HS2? review into the risks of fracking and I can assure my hon. Friend that any future shale gas production would The Prime Minister: No, I fully support HS2 and have to meet stringent safety and environmental standards, think that it is an investment that needs to go ahead for follow deep consultation with local communities and fit the good of our country. within our overall energy commitments. 283 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 284

Hillsborough what happened. The families were right. The evidence in today’s report includes briefings to the media and attempts by the police to change the record of events. 12.32 pm On the media, several newspapers reported false allegations The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): With that fans were drunk and violent and stole from the permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement dead. The Sun’s report sensationalised these allegations on the report of the Hillsborough independent panel. under a banner headline “The Truth”. This was clearly Today, the Bishop of Liverpool, the Right Rev. James wrong and caused huge offence, distress and hurt. News Jones, is publishing the report of the Hillsborough International has co-operated with the panel and, for independent panel. The disaster at the Hillsborough the first time, today’s report reveals that the source for football stadium on 15 April 1989 was one of the greatest these despicable untruths was a Sheffield news agency peacetime tragedies of the last century; 96 people died reporting conversations with South Yorkshire police as a result of a crush in the Leppings Lane terrace at the and Irvine Patnick, the then MP for Sheffield Hallam. FA cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham The report finds that this was part of police efforts Forest. “to develop and publicise a version of events that focused There was a public inquiry at the time by Lord Justice on…allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence”. Taylor that found that the main cause of the disaster In terms of changing the record of events, we already was know that police reports were significantly altered, but “a failure of police control.” the full extent was not drawn to Lord Justice Taylor’s But the inquiry did not have access to all the documents attention. Today’s report finds that 164 statements were that have since become available, it did not properly significantly amended, and that 116 explicitly removed examine the response of the emergency services, and it negative comments about the policing operation, including was followed by a deeply controversial inquest and by a its lack of leadership. media version of events that sought to blame the fans. The report also makes important findings about As a result, the families have not heard the truth and particular actions taken by the police and coroner while have not found justice. That is why the previous investigating the deaths. There is new evidence which Government, and in particular the right hon. Member shows that police officers carried out police national for Leigh (Andy Burnham), was right to set up the computer checks on those who had died, in an attempt, panel and it is why this Government insisted that no and I quote directly from the report, stone should be left unturned and that all papers should “to impugn the reputations of the deceased”. be made available to the Bishop of Liverpool and his The coroner took blood alcohol levels from all of the team. In total, more than 450,000 pages of evidence deceased, including children. The panel finds no rationale have been reviewed. whatsoever for what it regards as an “exceptional” It was right that the families should see the report decision. The report states clearly that the attempt of first. As a result, the Government and I have had only a the inquest to draw a link between blood alcohol and very limited amount of time to study the evidence so late arrival was “fundamentally flawed”, and that alcohol far. But it is already very clear that many of the report’s consumption was findings are deeply distressing. There are three areas in “unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion”. particular: the failure of the authorities to help to protect people; the attempt to blame the fans; and the Over all these years, questions have been raised about doubt cast on the original coroner’s inquest. I want to the role of the Government, including whether they did take each in turn. enough to uncover the truth. It is certainly true that some of the language in the Government papers published First, there is new evidence about how the authorities today was insensitive, but, having been through every failed. There is a trail of new documents which show document—and every Government document including the extent to which the safety of the crowd at Hillsborough Cabinet minutes will be published—the panel found no was “compromised at every level”. The ground failed to evidence of any Government trying to conceal the meet minimum standards and the “deficiencies were truth. At the time of the Taylor report, the then Prime well known”. The turnstiles were inadequate. The ground Minister was briefed by her private secretary that the capacity had been significantly over-calculated. The defensive and “close to deceitful” behaviour of senior crush barriers failed to meet safety standards, and there South Yorkshire officers was “depressingly familiar”. It had been a crush at exactly the same match the year is clear that the then Government thought it right that before. Today’s report shows clearly that lessons had the chief constable of South Yorkshire should resign. not been learned. But, as the right hon. Member for Leigh has rightly The report backs up again the key finding of the highlighted, Governments then and since have simply Taylor report on police failure, but it goes further by not done enough to challenge publicly the unjust and revealing for the first time the shortcomings of the untrue narrative that sought to blame the fans. ambulance and emergency services’ response. The major Thirdly, and perhaps most significantly of all, the incident plan was not fully implemented; rescue attempts Bishop of Liverpool’s report presents new evidence that were held back by failures of leadership and co-ordination; casts significant doubt over the adequacy of the original and, significantly, new documents today show that there inquest. The coroner, on the advice of the pathologists, was a delay from the emergency services when people believed that victims suffered traumatic asphyxia leading were being crushed and being killed. to unconsciousness within seconds, and death within a Secondly, the families have long believed that some of few minutes. As a result, he asserted that, beyond 3.15 pm, the authorities attempted to create a completely unjust there were no actions that could have changed the fate account of events that sought to blame the fans for of the victims, and he limited the scope of the inquest 285 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 286

[The Prime Minister] state to protect their loved ones and the indefensible wait to get to the truth; and then the injustice of the accordingly. However, by analysing post-mortem reports, denigration of the deceased—that they were somehow the panel has found that 28 people did not have obstruction at fault for their own deaths. On behalf of the Government of blood circulation, and that 31 did have evidence of and indeed our country, I am profoundly sorry that this heart and lungs continuing to function after the crush. double injustice has been left uncorrected for so long. That means that individuals in those groups could have Because of what I have described as the second had potentially reversible asphyxia beyond 3.15 pm, injustice—the false version of events—not enough people which is in contrast to the findings of the coroner and a in this country understand what the people of Merseyside subsequent judicial review. The panel states clearly that have been through. This appalling death toll of so many “it is highly likely that what happened to those individuals after loved ones lost was compounded by an attempt to 3.15 pm was significant” blame the victims. A narrative about hooliganism on in determining whether they died. that day was created that led many in the country to The conclusions of this report will be very harrowing accept that somehow it was a grey area. Today’s report for many of the families affected. Anyone who has lost is black and white: the Liverpool fans a child knows that the pain never leaves you, but to read “were not the cause of the disaster”. a report years afterwards that says The panel has quite simply found “no evidence” in “a swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped support of allegations of response had the potential to save more lives” “exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence can only add to that pain among Liverpool fans…no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium” It is for the Attorney-General to decide whether to apply to the High Court to quash the original inquest and and seek a new one. In that capacity, he acts independently “no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying.” of Government, and he will need to examine the evidence I am sure that the whole House will want to thank the himself. It is clear to me, however, that the new evidence Bishop of Liverpool and his panel for all the work they in today’s report raises vital questions that must be have done. I am sure that both sides of the House will examined, and the Attorney-General has assured me join me in paying tribute to the incredible strength and that he will examine this new evidence immediately and dignity of the Hillsborough families and the community reach a decision as quickly as possible. Ultimately, that has backed them in their long search for justice. however, it is for the High Court to decide. While nothing can ever bring back those who were lost, It is also right that the House should have an opportunity with all the documents revealed and nothing held back, to debate the issues raised in this report fully. My right the families, at last, have access to the truth. I commend hon. Friend the Home Secretary will take forward a this statement to the House. debate in Government time relatively quickly when the House returns in October. 12.44 pm I want to be very clear about the view that the Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I thank Government take about these findings and why, after the Prime Minister for his statement and join him in 23 years, this matters so much not just for the families, remembering the 96 people who died at Hillsborough, but for Liverpool and our country as a whole. What the hundreds more who were injured and all their happened that day, and since, was wrong. It was wrong families and friends. Today we also remember all those that the responsible authorities knew that Hillsborough who had to suffer the trauma of being there that day. did not meet minimum safety standards, yet still allowed Let me state right up front an uncomfortable truth the match to go ahead. It was wrong that the families for us all: it shames us as a country that it has taken had to wait for so long, and to fight so hard, just to get 23 years to get to the truth about what happened at to the truth. It was wrong—quite profoundly wrong—that Hillsborough. The Prime Minister was right today to the police changed the records of what happened and offer an unreserved apology, but all Governments during tried to blame the fans. We ask the police to do difficult this period bear their share of responsibility for the and often very dangerous things on our behalf, and failure to get to the truth, so we on the Opposition South Yorkshire police is a very different organisation Benches also apologise to the families that we did not today from what it was then, but we do the many, many do enough to help. honourable policemen and women a great disservice if we try to defend the indefensible. What brings us here today, as the Prime Minister said, is not just the tragedy of Hillsborough; it is that It was also wrong that neither Lord Justice Taylor the victims of the tragedy and the people of Liverpool nor the coroner looked properly at the response of the were systematically smeared and portrayed as its other emergency services. Again, these are dedicated perpetrators. Imagine for a moment waving a loved one people who do extraordinary things to serve the public, off as they go to a football match, and then the impossible but the evidence from today’s report will make very grief of that loved one not returning. Then imagine difficult reading. being unable to grieve in peace, but facing two decades With the weight of the new evidence in this report, it of torment, a cloud of suspicion, innuendo and downright is right for me today, as Prime Minister, to make a lies spread about the person you loved—lies about proper apology to the families of the 96 for all they have rushing the gate, lies about ticketless fans, lies about the suffered over the past 23 years. Indeed, the new evidence drunkenness of the victims. That is what the Hillsborough with which we are presented today makes it clear, in my families have had to endure from day one of this view, that these families have suffered a double injustice: tragedy, and while they spoke the truth to power whenever the injustice of the appalling events—the failure of the they could, the powerful did not hear. 287 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 288

Nothing could compensate for what the families have This is a day that has been far too long in coming. To suffered, but I pay tribute to all the victims’ families for the families we say: we are deeply sorry for your loss their 23-year campaign for the truth. Without the efforts and deeply sorry for the pain you have suffered. We of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, the sincerely hope that today marks a day of truth, so that, Hillsborough Justice Campaign and Hope for Hillsborough, finally, you can grieve in peace. the truth would have remained hidden and we would not be here today. I also commend the work of the The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman Liverpool Echo, which kept the campaign going, as well for what he said and the way in which he said it. As he as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy put it, this has taken too long, but all parties have had Burnham) and my hon. Friends the Members for Garston to come together and work together to make this happen. and Halewood (Maria Eagle), for Liverpool, Walton He is absolutely right to commend the local groups, the (Steve Rotheram) and for Halton (Derek Twigg). Most local press and the local MPs for keeping this issue alive of all, I pay tribute to all the people of Liverpool and and making sure that we reached this point. the people across the country who have stood with the As the right hon. Gentleman said, after truth should families in the dark times, and to every single person come justice, and I shall try to answer his three points as who campaigned for this day to come. best I can. On the inquest, yes, it is absolutely urgent. We have to look at the Coroners Act 1988, which says Rightly, as the Prime Minister said, it is the families that once an inquest has been held a fresh inquest can who have had first access to the report. People will be held only if the High Court quashes the original want, over many days, to scrutinise properly all the inquest and orders a fresh one. The High Court will documents that have been released, and I welcome the consider an application only if it is made by the Attorney- Prime Minister’s decision to have a debate in October. General or with his consent. That is a key decision-making Some things, though, have been clear for a long time role for him: he has to stand aside from Government to and will be clearer after the publication of the report do so, but all the things that I said in my statement are today, and I want to put them on the record. relevant. As for what other authorities are responsible, and The tragedy was caused not by fans but by an unsafe whether further steps should be taken, again, in this ground and terrible mistakes and negligence in policing. country we have, quite rightly, independent authorities There was a systematic attempt by some in the police to for prosecution and the rest of it. They will want to cover that up after the event and, disgracefully, to study what is in the report and come to their own spread the blame to the fans, and they were aided and conclusions. abetted by parts of the media. Finally, it is clear that the On the point about apologies, the right hon. Gentleman original inquest was hopelessly inadequate, declaring is absolutely right to say what he said. The important the so-called 3.15 cut-off on the assumption that all thing about making an apology is to think very carefully those who died had sustained fatal injuries by that time, why one is necessary. In this case, it is absolutely necessary: when in fact the post-mortem records show that not to there is new evidence which is vital in reaching this be the case and, tragically, that some of the victims conclusion. The other point about making an apology could have been saved. is that you should make one only when you really mean it. My understanding of this long history is that apologies The picture is not one of irresponsible victims, but have sometimes been given that have not been fully innocent victims let down by the South Yorkshire police, meant, and not been properly made. My advice to the emergency services, the Sheffield coroner and the others—and it is their decision—is think it through, wider public authorities. It is a picture not just of a and understand the extent of hurt, not just of the tragedy, but of a gross injustice. The victims were not families but on Merseyside more widely, then do it only blamed by those who were supposed to protect properly. them, but they were blamed by those who were themselves responsible for the disaster. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): May I thank After truth must come the best justice that can be the Prime Minister for his statement? His statement and provided 23 years late, so let me ask the Prime Minister the release of the papers will be welcome not just on three questions. The first is about the possibility of new Merseyside but across the country. He is aware of my inquests. I welcome what he said about the Attorney- constituent, Mrs Anne Williams, whose 15-year-old General, but will he reaffirm the urgency, which I am son, Kevin, died on that awful day in April 1989, and sure he and the Attorney-General recognise, of making her 23-year battle to find out the truth behind her son’s that decision? Secondly, today’s revelations also raise death, and in particular, to overturn the 3.15 cut-off profound questions about the behaviour of the public time in the original inquest. She has made several authorities and the police, so what steps does he imagine requests to the Attorney-General that have been turned those authorities might be able to take in response to down, and has gone as far as the European Court of the panel’s findings and does he believe that there is any Human Rights. Now that the report by the independent way to hold those who were responsible to account? panel has been published, will my right hon. Friend Thirdly, does the Prime Minister agree with me that, encourage the Attorney-General to look favourably on just as he has apologised on behalf of the Government ordering a new inquest into Kevin’s death? and so too has Sheffield Wednesday on behalf of Hillsborough, the same should be forthcoming from all The Prime Minister: May I offer my condolences those who wronged the victims, their families and again to Mrs Williams and to all the family members supporters, including those in the media, particularly affected by Kevin’s tragic death, which was one of the The Sun newspaper? many that were originally dealt with in that single 289 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 290

[The Prime Minister] or a similar period in the case of the Marchioness, for victims to be able to put their case to the public and for inquest? As I have said, now that the report is out, there a proper inquiry to take account of all those who have is an opportunity for the Attorney-General to study the something to say. We do not do public inquiries and evidence and make that recommendation to the High inquests well in this country; we need to do them much Court, which many people, including Mrs Williams, better in future. will want to see. The Prime Minister: I agree with my right hon. Friend. Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): I thank the Prime On the specific point about learning the lessons of Minister for every single word of his statement today—their health and safety reports and of safety inquiries, I have value in Liverpool simply cannot be calculated. not had time to study everything in the report, but I The statement comes far too late for many, of course, think that there will be new, detailed evidence about but finally, the full horror of Hillsborough has been that issue. On the more general point, it is very important, revealed: a catalogue of negligence, appalling failure as I said in my statement, for the people of Liverpool and sheer mendacity; a tragedy that should have been and Merseyside to see that the rest of the country prevented, lives that should have been saved; devastating understands why the sense of injustice is rightly as truths made far worse, not better, by the passage of strong as it has been for all these years. time; a crude 3.15 cut-off, with no legal, medical or moral justification; parents hearing only today what Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): This is a happened to their children, because people whose job it momentous day. On behalf of the people of Liverpool, was to protect them turned against the victims and the I thank the Prime Minister and the Leader of the bereaved to protect themselves; a monumental cover-up, Opposition for their statements of support to the families, and a sickening campaign of vilification against victims, supporters and the people of Liverpool. Finally, we grieving families, traumatised survivors and a city in have the undeniable truth; a truth that we know now shock. means that many innocent people could and should Does the Prime Minister agree with me that today the have been saved; a truth that unequivocally confirms names of the 96 and of the Liverpool supporters who that Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster were at Hillsborough have been emphatically cleared? and that drink was not a significant factor; a truth that In thanking him and the Home Secretary for supporting both vindicates and validates a 23-year campaign for the disclosure process that I initiated, may I ask him to truth and justice. Despite the criticism levelled at us of a continue to work with us to right these wrongs and, at “self-pity city”, we were right that there was a deliberate long last, to bring justice for the 96? attempt to shift the blame and instigate a cover-up at the very highest level. It is not about retribution—it is The Prime Minister: I absolutely will continue to about responsibility. work with the right hon. Gentleman on this issue. He is Today, we have made history, but now we must change right that the names of the 96 have been cleared. Above history, so may I ask the Prime Minister to ensure that all, I pay tribute to the work that he has put in with the Government co-operate fully with any potential huge passion and dedication on this issue—it was a police investigations into the actions of senior police brave and right decision to set up the panel; it was not officers and civil servants involved in the 1989 cover-up? easy, as there have been previous inquiries, judicial Will he personally write to the families of all 96 victims reviews and the rest of it, but it was undoubtedly the and apologise? Most importantly, I urge him to work right decision—and to what he has done to help people with the families, MPs and the Attorney-General so understand the nature of what I call this double injustice. that an application may be made to the High Court to There was an injustice about fact—about these dreadful quash the original unsound verdicts of accidental death things that happened that were not properly accounted and to order a fresh coroner’s inquest. Only then will for—but also an injustice of narrative and an inaccurate justice be seen to be done. version put around which, as he put it quite rightly, means that the passage of time has made these things The Prime Minister: Let me pay tribute to the hon. worse, not better. Gentleman, who was not only there on that dreadful day but has the home of Liverpool FC in his constituency. Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) He has campaigned very, very long and hard on this (LD): I thank the Prime Minister for his full and robust issue, including securing last October’s parliamentary statement. I join him in paying tribute to the right hon. debate, which was a key point in this developing issue Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) and his colleagues, and in getting it right. who have helped us get to this place today. On the hon. Gentleman’s specific points, I will look I hope that the Prime Minister agrees that today’s carefully at his extremely good idea of writing to the evidence clearly vindicates not just Liverpool football families. It has been vital that they have had this report club, the families and the campaign, but all those who before anybody else. Of course the Government will supported Liverpool and the people of Merseyside in co-operate with any investigation. As I have said, all the saying that football supporters on that day behaved Government papers that were given to the inquiry—a normally, and they were abused and vilified without full trawl was done—will be published, including the justification. I hope that we have learned two lessons. Cabinet minutes. That has not been done in cases of First, when reports are conducted, as they were in two peace and war, but it is absolutely essential, in this case, previous years into that ground, someone needs to that it is. He is right that this is about responsibility; it is make sure that they are implemented and not left on the also about respect, and I think that that is what people table. Secondly, it should not take 23 years in this case, have rightly earned today. 291 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 292

Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I thank my right “major incident plan: the provision of appropriate assessment, hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary prioritisation and treatment on site.” and pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Leigh What I am trying to say is that when it comes to (Andy Burnham) and the hon. Members for Liverpool, criticism of the police, the ambulance service or other Walton (Steve Rotheram) and for Halton (Derek Twigg), emergency services, it is very important to look carefully who were actually at the tragic event. The truth is now at what the report itself says. out, and it is clear that the families of the 96 were right all along. Will my right hon. Friend please make sure John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): For absolute clarification, that that justice is done, and that justice is seen to be will the Prime Minister confirm that all documentation done? and all papers relating to this matter are now in the public domain? The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He is right. Justice is being done by the full The Prime Minister: It is not quite as simple as that. revelation of all the documents. As I put it in my All the documentation was made available to the panel, statement, obviously we cannot bring back those who and I understand from the panel that it was very pleased have been lost, but what we can do for the families is with the co-operation it had from everybody—from the have the full revelation of all the facts and all the Government to the South Yorkshire police to the media. documents. In that way, people can rightly see that they It feels it was given every document it needed to see—over have access to the truth. It will take us all a lot of time 450,000 documents. The overwhelming majority of those to study exactly what has been revealed, but, as I tried will be published. The only documents that will not be to outline in my statement, we can see very clearly from published—this is set out in the way the panel was the introduction to the report that some of the key originally established—are those needed for individual points that the families have been making year after data protection, so some will not be revealed. However, year have been thoroughly vindicated. the panel has set out the process by which that will be judged. Let me emphasise that it is a decision for the Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and panel, not for the Government. We have not held back Hillsborough) (Lab): May I reiterate the appreciation anything. expressed to the panel and the excellent secretariat and thank the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): for their words and for the apology? The families and This is the day when the 23-year-old campaign led by the people of Merseyside have known all along that the the bereaved, the traumatised and the injured was hearts of the people of Sheffield have been with them, vindicated. I pay tribute to the work of the Bishop of as demonstrated on that terrible weekend by the help Liverpool and his panel in demonstrating so conclusively and support that was given by my own wife, Margaret, what had been suspected for so long—that there had who treated some of the injured, and I visited others in been a major and systematic cover-up. Can the Prime hospital. No one in their right mind could have blamed Minister give us an absolute assurance that in the three the victims for what happened that afternoon, given key areas—who was responsible for what happened, where they were in the ground and the consequences for whether sufficient lives were saved, and the critical issue them. May I say to the Prime Minister that one of the of the inquest—he will keep Parliament informed about lessons that has to come out of this is surely that progress that can be made so that those who were cover-ups can only cause, and continue to cause, the bereaved and those who remain traumatised will at least greatest hurt and harm to those involved, and that in a start to feel that they are at the beginnings of receiving democracy transparency and openness must be, and some kind of justice? always will be, the right way forward to get to the truth? The Prime Minister: I can certainly give the hon. The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman makes Lady that assurance. I think that the panel has done an an extremely good point that echoes what my right hon. excellent job, but, to be fair to it, it is not a coroner. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark Only the coroner can carry out a proper inquest. As I (Simon Hughes) said. In holding inquiries and inquests, have said, there is very important evidence here for the both of which were held in this case, not enough was Attorney-General to consider and to put in front of the done to reveal the full picture, and that is what this High Court, but the panel cannot reach those judgments. report does. Paragraph 60 says: I reiterate that it is very important that all parliamentary “It is not possible to establish whether a more effective emergency colleagues study the report before making more detailed response would have saved the life of any one individual who comments on it. For example, the right hon. Gentleman died.” mentioned the role that people in Sheffield played in But it then goes on to say, as I quoted in my statement, helping those who were injured. Let me read one small that segment of the report: “a swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped “Viewed entirely as an operation to deploy ambulances to the response had the potential to save more lives.” stadium, and to transport casualties as quickly as possible to hospital, the…response was rapid and efficient.” In the end, you need the precision of coroners’ reports to go into that sort of level of detail, but I think that the But it then goes on to say that panel has done an extremely good job with what it had. “this ignores a significant component of the response to a major disaster set out in the” Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): The ambulance service’s Prime Minister has talked about getting it right. 293 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 294

[Sir Peter Bottomley] broadly, to hold inquiries and inquests and how important it is to make sure that they have access to all the Fourteen people were crushed to death around me at information at the time. a funeral in El Salvador before this happened. As a Minister, I had to pay our respects to the 39 dead bodies Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I, too, add my at Heysel stadium. voice to those who have thanked the Prime Minister, not just for his statement but for the sincerity with Both at Hillsborough and at Heysel, people knew which it was made, and for the revelation that the that the grounds were inadequate, and people had spoken appalling vista has become the atrocious truth. However, about that in advance. the sad fact remains that there is no effective sanction Could the Prime Minister say to people who want to against an unwise and careless media. That issue still be whistleblowers and alert people to dangers that they has to be addressed, and The Sun still has to be faced should be persistent and that their voices should be with the lies that it heaped upon the heads of the heard, and that when people afterwards find they have bereaved. made a mistake, they should be prepared to say so early on? The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The Leveson inquiry is separately looking at the whole issue of how the press is regulated The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right and how mistakes that are made are properly corrected. in what he says. I think that this will be one of the things I think that everybody, including those in the press, that come out of the report. It has been said before, and recognises that the current system is not working and it has been known before, that there were problems with needs to be strengthened. There is then the whole the ground, but the full extent of the fact that previous question of whether that happens through strengthened events had had similar problems and that there were self-regulation, independent regulation or statutory quite detailed reports about the failings at the ground regulation, but that is what Leveson is there to look at. will be a very important part of the report. As he says, we do need people to whistleblow and to point these Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I am a things out. very large football fan from a family of football fans, and a number of Members in the Chamber also go to Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I also welcome the football matches and other sporting events. The hurt content and the tone of the Prime Minister’s statement. and the tragedy of waving loved ones off to a football If, having studied the papers, either he or the Home match, only never to see them again, was compounded Secretary finds that there is a case to be made for by the defamation of their characters afterwards. Will referring the conduct of the police to the Independent my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister ask the Attorney- Police Complaints Commission, will he not hesitate to General to seek to bring a defamation charge against do so? anybody who was found to have spread these vicious lies? Does he agree that an appropriate starting point to help heal the wounds of Hillsborough would be for The Prime Minister: I would say to the right hon. tomorrow’s front page of The Sun to feature a picture of Gentleman that people need to study the evidence in the the Liverpool football club crest with one word, “Sorry”, report. The panel had access to all the documentation written across it in bold? from the South Yorkshire police that it wanted. It is very important that politicians play their proper role in The Prime Minister: I am sure that the Attorney-General these things and the independent authorities play their will listen carefully to what my hon. Friend says. As I proper role. There will be a lot of evidence that people have said, a number of apologies have been made over want to look at before reaching those decisions. the 23 years by police, newspapers and others. I think that what matters is that you have to properly think David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): I welcome the through what has happened, what went wrong, what publication of the report and the Prime Minister’s was got wrong, what it is necessary to apologise for, and statement, like many families in Liverpool and across then really mean it when you do so. I feel that it is very the north-west, but what lessons will be learned about important the Government apologise as clearly and shaping the scope of future inquests and making sure frankly as I have today because there is proper new that they have access to all relevant information? evidence showing that the families were right, that an injustice was done, and that that injustice was compounded by the false narrative that, if we are frank, I think lots of The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend asks an important people went along with: we all thought there was some question. I think that to answer it properly I will have to sort of grey area and asked why all this was going on. go away and look at all the things that have changed in That is why it is necessary to pay tribute to those MPs, the nature of establishing inquests and public inquiries, newspapers and family groups who kept the faith and because we have probably made quite a few steps forward. kept campaigning because they knew an injustice had However, to be fair to Lord Taylor and his report, it been done, they knew it was wrong and they suffered in came down to what the families and others saw as the the way they did. It is for newspapers to decide what to right conclusion—that a mistake by the police was the do themselves, and I think it is important that they principal cause of the problem. One of the deeper really think it through and feel it before they do it. problems in this whole case was that after that public inquiry, there was then the questionable inquest and the Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I join media narrative that sought to undermine what Lord others in thanking the Prime Minister and my right Taylor had found. My hon. Friend makes the important hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition for the way in point that we should try to learn the lessons about how, which they have apologised on behalf of all of us for 295 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 296 what has happened over the past 23 years. I know that it failed. Today we come together to receive the truth, so I will be of some relief to the families. Even for those of thank the Prime Minister for his apology. Will he join us who have campaigned on this issue for many years, me in hoping that all those who still suffer find some this report is profoundly shocking. Is it not indicative of relief today and that all those who have lied and worsened the utter failure of our legal system that it has taken the that suffering feel shame in their hearts and say sorry? suggestion by my right hon. Friend the Member for Will he confirm that the Government will now help us Leigh (Andy Burnham) and me of a wholly exceptional to move from the truth to justice, whether through a arrangement to bring out, into the public domain, new inquest, accountability or further apologies? May documents, truths and facts that were already there? it happen quickly. This is new evidence only in the sense that it has been published. Does this not have a profound implication The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady speaks with huge for how we deal in future with disasters and things that force and power and I agree with her every word. After go wrong? What lessons can we all seek to learn from truth has to come justice. For the families, nothing can that? bring back the loved ones they have lost, but I hope that, by revealing all this information and by the panel’s The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady makes an extremely patient work in highlighting just how many things they important point. It deserves a proper, thoughtful, considered were right about and the authorities were wrong about, answer, which is what we should try to address in this they will be able to find greater peace in their hearts debate in the House of Commons. As has been said, about their appalling losses. You never get back the there was a public inquiry, a coroner’s inquest and, loved ones you have lost, but at some stage you want at quite rightly, by the right hon. Member for Blackburn least some of the clouds to part and to see that you have (Mr Straw), a judicial inquiry into what had happened, got to the truth. yet these processes did not turn up what the Bishop of Liverpool and his patient panel, with the full disclosure Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I congratulate of information, have turned up. We need to ask ourselves my right hon. Friend on an incredibly moving statement—as why that happened. What needs to change when we on the Saville inquiry, he struck exactly the right tone—and investigate these things? I do not have the answers the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) on today, but my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary can setting up the panel. When the Government have had a think deeply about it before the debate in October. chance to study the full report, will the Prime Minister report back to the House on whether it sheds any light Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): I thank on why the Taylor inquiry did not have access to all my right hon. Friend and the Leader of the Opposition the documents; why it did not examine the response of for their courageous statements and apologies. Tears of the emergency services; and what went wrong with the sadness will still be shed in Liverpool, but tears of relief original inquest? Surely one of the ways in which we can will also be shed that the unvarnished truth is finally honour the memory of the 96 is to ensure that, when out. I remember being a schoolgirl in Liverpool and future tragedies occur, people do not have to wait this people were shell-shocked by what happened that day, long to find out the truth about how their loved ones and that feeling will continue for many years to come. died. I am equally shell-shocked by the suggestion that 164 statements were doctored by the police, which suggests a level of criminal conspiracy that is absolutely shocking. The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for Will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister ask the raising the key questions, which are for Government to Home Secretary and whoever else can make this decision consider, because we are responsible for how these to start pursuing criminal charges against the people processes work. I do not have the answer today. Public involved? inquiries and coroners’ inquests are supposed to get to the truth. They did not on this occasion and we have to answer why. The Prime Minister: I know that my hon. Friend had a school-friend who died on that terrible day and I quite understand why she speaks with such power and force Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I about it. The figures on the police statements are shocking. congratulate the Prime Minister on his statement and We all need to take time and read the report in full and on the fulsome apology that both he and the Leader of try to see the full detail of what happened on that day. the Opposition have made today. The families fought Obviously, any decisions about prosecution are for the long and hard for truth and justice, and they have relevant authorities but, as Members have said, it is glimpsed today the truth, which is unpalatable, disgraceful shocking to read this. In the time that I have had this and frightening. May I therefore ask the Prime Minister morning, I have not been able to go through it in great to act urgently on this matter, because it needs to be detail—I have seen the overview of what the panel has redressed? Families in north Wales were, unfortunately, found and had a meeting with the Bishop of Liverpool also affected by this terrible tragedy. Nothing less than last night—but even that completely takes your breath justice will suffice, because they now believe that the away when you read some of the things that he has moral authority of the state is at issue. It is that important. found. The Prime Minister: I completely understand how Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): No words in those families will feel, now that, through the disclosure the English language are good enough to describe the of these documents, we have got as close to the truth as dignity, grace and courage shown by the families of the I think we ever will. We have to understand, however, 96 loved ones we lost at Hillsborough. The police failed that in a democratic country governed by the rule of law them, then the legal system failed them, but they never it is not politicians who order prosecutions or apologies 297 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 298

[The Prime Minister] Prime Minister for his comments. He spoke about being sorry for a double injustice and about apologies over from others. Everyone has to take their own responsibility, the past 23 years. I thank him and my right hon. Friend and prosecutions and decisions of that kind must be the Leader of the Opposition for the evident sincerity of taken in the proper way. their apologies today. Will the Prime Minister join me in thanking and paying tribute to the bereaved families Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): I thank my and other campaigners for justice for their tireless campaign right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the Leader of for truth and justice? the Opposition for their moving statements. On this day of truth, I am prouder than ever to be a Member of this House. Does the Prime Minister agree that the impact The Prime Minister: I certainly join the hon. Gentleman of this report will be felt not only in Liverpool but by in paying tribute to the families. When someone loses a Liverpool fans up and down the country? Many Liverpool loved one in the way the 96 families did, it must be fans in my constituency contacted me after the debate tempting for them to try to put it behind them and last October, and they too will see today as the first day move on—to find closure in some other way—so the of truth regarding the Hillsborough tragedy. fact that they have bravely campaigned for justice, knowing that they have not had the truth, is huge testament to The Prime Minister: I hope that my hon. Friend is them. I am grateful for his comments about what the right that Liverpool fans the country over—the world Leader of the Opposition and I said. I feel strongly over—will feel that way. As I have tried to explain, about this, like lots of people in the country, because however, there is something else they need to feel, and until this matter was looked at carefully and really that is not just that they have got to the truth but that understood, too many people were willing to go along the rest of the country now understands what this with the line, “Well, it’s all a grey area, it’s all terribly search for the truth was all about. That is so important difficult. There’s been an inquiry and a coroner’s report. in righting the wrongs of the past 23 years. We’ve had a judicial review.” This shows that they were not good enough. This is not just for the people of Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): The Prime Liverpool; it is for the rest of the country to understand Minister delivered his statement with the clarity and what the people of Merseyside have been through. sensitivity of somebody who knows what it is to lose a loved one. With Mr and Mrs Joynes, who then lived in Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): my constituency, I attended a day of the inquest. It was The issue of the media has been touched on already. one of the most harrowing events I have ever attended Given their despicable behaviour, what specific action and it was offensive for the reasons the Prime Minister would the Prime Minister like to see taken against the set out, but it was also ineffective, because of the deeply media? flawed decision on the 3.15 cut-off point. I accept that the Attorney-General has to follow the proper process, but I hope that when he considers the matter he will The Prime Minister: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s take into account just how deeply flawed the process question. Everybody has to study the report and think was. about the consequences of what they did. What is new in the report is that it is not just about what the The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman speaks newspapers, particularly The Sun, did, but about where with much power, having attended the inquest. The the information came from, how it was gleaned and the point is not only that it was 23 years ago and that rest of it. People will want to consider that carefully inquests and the coroners’ system have moved on, but before working out what to do next. specifically that the decision on the 3.15 cut-off point, as detailed in the report, seems beyond defence. This Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I have several constituents has to be done properly, of course, but I hope that those who lost loved ones, and I was in the stadium on the who make the decision will consider that point carefully. day, so may I thank the Prime Minister and my right Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I thank hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition for the tone my right hon. Friend and the Leader of the Opposition of their statements and their apologies? We should also for their sensitive and entirely proper apologies. On recognise the work of the previous Home Secretary, my hearing the grim revelation that many statements were right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull deliberately altered, two potential criminal offences came West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), and the current Home to my mind—misconduct in public office and perverting Secretary, who ensured that the documents were actually the course of justice. Does my right hon. Friend share delivered. What we have heard is shocking—I have had my expectation that any criminal investigation into a brief glimpse at the report—but it is equally shocking these matters will be thorough and efficient? that on almost every single thing that the family challenged, whether on the inquest, the 3.15 cut-off point, the post The Prime Minister: I say to my hon. Friend, who has mortems or the police conspiracy, they have been proved experience in these matters, that it is up to the authorities right. That is a scandal. I welcome the fact that there to study the report, what happened, why it happened, will be a debate, but may we also be kept up to date on what police officers were told they were doing and were what is happening as a consequence of the report, any meant to do, and all the rest of it. That has to be actions being taken and any lessons learned? The Home carefully looked at by the correct authorities. Secretary might want to start that when she makes her statement. The key thing is that we are kept up to date. Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): Any documents relating to future decisions must also be This is a hugely significant day for my constituents in made public and made available to the families and Liverpool, and on their behalf I would like to thank the others who want to see them. 299 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 300

The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a learning from these inquiries, when a disaster such as good point. The Home Secretary and the Attorney-General this takes place it is important that we look at its causes are sitting here and saying that they will keep the House and at what happened, rather than muddle it up with a up to date—the Attorney-General with the decisions whole lot of other issues, which I think is what far too that he has to make and the Home Secretary with the many people did in this case. lessons-learned exercise, which is clearly vital. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): The report I associate myself with the many tributes made this has highlighted so many areas where things went tragically afternoon to the families and survivors of Hillsborough, wrong, but most importantly it has cleared the victims whose tireless search for the truth has led to the publication of any blame. I hope that this will bring relief to the of the report today. I also welcome the apologies from families. Does the Prime Minister agree that the despicable the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Leader journalism following the tragedy has had a devastating of the Opposition. The documents released confirm effect on the families, whose loved ones were smeared? what has long been suspected by many: for 23 years a Does he, like me and, as we just heard, my hon. Friend concerted cover-up based on smears and lies was conducted the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke), by the police, and others, against the victims and survivors hope that there will be a full front-page apology in of a terrible, terrible tragedy. tomorrow’s The Sun and from its proprietor to the We know that the Prime Minister has had little time people of Liverpool and Liverpool fans everywhere? this morning to go through the report, but will he please commit to going through it after this debate, so that the The Prime Minister: What my hon. Friend says is families of the 96 know that the pursuit of justice is important. I have answered the question about how taking place at the highest level? others need to face up to their own responsibilities. The newspaper reporting, the false police narrative and all The Prime Minister: I can certainly give the hon. those who coalesced around it not only did damage to Lady that assurance. I received the report at 9.30 am. I Liverpool and the families but led to many in the rest of had a briefing from the Bishop of Liverpool yesterday the country accepting that narrative. So this is not only afternoon, which was very helpful, but I was not able to an apology to Liverpool and Merseyside. It is an explanation read the report until this morning before Prime Minister’s to the rest of the country that these families were right questions. I have read the summary, which I recommend and have been vindicated. They should be proud of to all Members of Parliament. It is a very good summary that. of what individual chapters find, and it links to the information that has been revealed. I am sure, however, Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Is the Prime that certain bits will require much closer study. Mention Minister aware that the author of the article referred to, has been made of the alteration of the police reports “The Truth”, Kelvin MacKenzie, is still going around and the importance of the media narrative, and we must Britain standing by that story and has been employed also understand how so many of those things were left by the BBC and other media outlets? Does the Prime to lie for so long. Minister think that he is a suitable person to be employed by anyone? Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I am sure the Prime Minister will agree that the shocking findings The Prime Minister: Kelvin MacKenzie needs to face that he revealed in his excellent statement show how up to his own responsibilities. I have not had time to right it was to establish the panel, and how right the look at the detail of the media aspects, but we now have families’ campaign has been over the years. I was present an account of what happened, where these false allegations at Hillsborough on that day, and I was also leader of came from, how they got into the newspapers, and what Sheffield city council. It is therefore relevant for me to the newspapers, particularly The Sun, did to give them reiterate today an unreserved apology on behalf of the that prominence. Now it is all there, anyone with city council for its failings in that terrible tragedy. responsibility needs to face up to their responsibilities, and I very much hope that they will do so. I revealed and released all my personal papers and documents to the panel, and I am sure the Prime Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): Minister will join me in paying great credit to Ken The events in Hillsborough stadium that day were Sutton and the panel’s support team for the helpful and undoubtedly a shocking tragedy. The subsequent professional way in which they have gone about their investigation, cover-up and media coverage were a shocking business. That contributed greatly to the production of travesty. To gain something positive from these awful this detailed and comprehensive report. events, what assurances can the Prime Minister give the House, and what have we learned, to ensure that these The Prime Minister: I certainly join the hon. Gentleman failings will not, and cannot, be repeated in the future? in praising Ken Sutton and the team who helped to put the report together. They have done an outstanding job The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his in my view, and I think the way the report was released question. Obviously, in terms of safety at football grounds, to the families first was absolutely right. huge steps have been taken with all-seater stadiums, The hon. Gentleman mentioned that he was leader of much better rules, far better knowledge about how to Sheffield city council at the time, and it is greatly to his police football matches, and all the issues with crowd credit that, like others, he revealed all his papers, public safety and the rest of it. There are no longer a lot of and private, to the report. This is not a public inquiry or those terrible cages and things that were there in the a coroner’s report. The inquiry is a proper trawl though past, and I think that we live in a different world. In all the relevant documentation in order to draw conclusions. 301 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 302

[The Prime Minister] In the end, an inquest can be ordered only by the High Court. That is how the processes work, and it is important There may be lessons that we can learn for other cases. that everyone, including the families, understands that. Because everything is revealed, a report of this nature could be the right way to get to the truth, rather than a Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): I public inquiry. join those who have paid tribute to the members of the panel, and to the thorough way they have discharged Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): One of those their duties. I also pay tribute to the Prime Minister and who died was 18-year-old Christopher Devonside. the Leader of the Opposition for the dignified manner Christopher’s father, Barry, will welcome what the Prime in which they have led the House in its initial response Minister had to say about a potential new inquest, to the findings in the report. The original inquest took because that is something he and his family have called place in the city of Sheffield, and the families of those for, along with many others. who died will have bitter memories of the process and I add my voice to those who have already mentioned the conclusions drawn. I therefore ask the Prime Minister accountability and potential criminal proceedings. As a to ensure that if and when a new inquest is authorised, result of what we have heard today, and what is no it does not take place in Sheffield. It is absolutely doubt detailed in the report, Barry and many other imperative that we minimise the distress to the families families will think such proceedings entirely appropriate. involved. The Prime Minister: I have listened carefully to the The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is right to hon. Lady, as, I am sure, did the Attorney-General and raise the issue of accountability, and there are processes Home Secretary. She made a very powerful point. through which that is meant to happen. In this case, the chief constable of South Yorkshire offered his resignation right at the beginning, but it was not accepted by the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): I join other hon. South Yorkshire police authority. We must think through Members in welcoming the full and fluent apology from how we can hold public authorities to account and the the Prime Minister, and the profound words of the processes by which that happens. Even 23 years on, it is Leader of the Opposition. Those words are authoritative completely open for the authorities to look at the new because they rest on the diligent work of the panel that evidence and to draw the conclusions they choose. the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) was so right to establish. The Prime Minister will know that Bloody Sunday families and survivors in my constituency Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): On behalf of my have a profound empathy with those Hillsborough families constituents who lost members of their family, I thank that have struggled with grief compounded by grievance, the Prime Minister for his statement, the contents of and endured injustice, insult and indifference. Does the which this House and the country will find chilling and Prime Minister recognise that this report will not only must hold huge lessons for public services, particularly mean that Hillsborough families are overcome with a the police. sense of vindication, but that it will also provoke many The Prime Minister rightly says that there is now a other mixed and difficult emotions and issues? Will he huge amount of information that those of us with an ensure that relevant services are supported and interest in this matter can read and think about carefully, supplemented to help the families and survivors of and that obviously includes the Government. When the Hillsborough with those needs? Government have completed that process, and the Prime Minister is clearer in his mind about the next steps to be The Prime Minister: I am sure that with his experience taken, will he come to Liverpool and meet the families— of Bloody Sunday and the Saville inquiry, the hon. given the catastrophic effect that this whole event had Gentleman is completely right to say that the families on Liverpool and the surrounding region—and tell will need a lot of support and help as they digest what is them first what those next steps will be? in the report. The commonality, as it were, of the two things, is that a Government should not make an apology The Prime Minister: I have listened carefully to the just because something bad happened some time ago. right hon. Gentleman. There is a lot of merit in what he The apology should be in respect of the fact that there is has said so let me consider it. From everything that I new information that injustice took place and was have read so far, the most important next step concerns allowed to lie for far too long, and that false stories were the role of the Attorney-General and consideration of got up about what happened. That is why an apology is an inquest. The report has identified a huge number of not only right, but the necessary and correct thing to faults along the road, but in a tragedy such as this, the do, and that is where there is common ground between key determinants of the truth should be the public the two issues raised by the hon. Gentleman. inquiry and the inquest. Let me repeat that in the view of the families and of Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): what we subsequently know, Lord Justice Taylor came On behalf of my constituents who lost family members to the right conclusion about the culpability of the and friends, I thank the Prime Minister and the Leader police. The inquest is where major question marks arise, of the Opposition for the dignified way in which they and that is where I think families will rightly focus. If we have dealt with this very difficult statement. are thinking about next steps, there are lessons for the One of the first questions raised with me by a constituent Government and a debate in the House, but consideration when I was first elected some 20 years ago was this: who of an inquest is the most important next step to be gave the authority to start the misinformation through taken. As I have said, that is a matter for the Attorney- the police to the media and so on? Is the Prime Minister General, and he has to stand aside from Government. satisfied that he can identify those persons, and those 303 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 304 persons who were subsequently involved in the cover-up investigation? What process does he expect to undertake to protect the person who started the misinformation? to bring to account those who have allegedly taken part That is a key question. The hon. Member for Suffolk in criminal activity? Coastal (Dr Coffey) put it exactly right: there ought to be prosecutions on that point. The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question, but we received the report at 9.30 am, The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman asks the so it clearly has not been possible to make those right question. It is necessary to study the report. The considerations. The Government often—not always—get families have long believed that, although the Taylor a public inquiry report and are able to consider it and inquiry came to the correct conclusion about police put more into lining up all the elements that must come culpability, there was then a move engineered by some next. In this situation, the report was rightly given to police officers—I believe there is evidence in the report the families first. I have had time for a very brief look about this—to try to put forward an alternative narrative, and some explanation, but the sort of questions he asks which was wrong, deeply insulting and very hurtful. will take longer to answer. That and new evidence on it is contained in the report, Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): In welcoming which is worth while. the Prime Minister’s statement and thanking him and the Leader of the Opposition for what they have said, Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): I echo the may I raise one point with the Prime Minister? He has sentiments of the statements of the Prime Minister and mentioned “new evidence” and “new documentation” a the Leader of the Opposition, and thank my right hon. number of times, but the truth is that it is not new—the Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) for vast majority was old but buried and concealed. We setting up the inquiry. Those who have died cannot have heard that the Prime Minister at the time was come back, but does the Prime Minister agree that their advised by her private secretary that families can be assisted by two things at least? First, “the defensive and…‘close to deceitful’ behaviour of senior South although I accept that politicians cannot make the Yorkshire officers was ‘depressingly familiar.’” emergency services and public officials apologise, perhaps We have also been told that the report says that no the Prime Minister could ask the Mayor of London for Government have tried to conceal the truth. The real an apology for the derogatory comments he made about question for politicians is this: what failures did politicians the people of Merseyside many years ago as a result of create in not trying to expose the truth? the Hillsborough disaster. Secondly, in the light of the clear dereliction of duty and negligence by the emergency The Prime Minister: Absolutely. The hon. Gentleman services and the police, will the Prime Minister consider has put his finger on it. When I said “new evidence”, I setting up a compensation fund to make ex gratia suppose I meant “newly published evidence”. The inquiry payments to the victims’ families, so that they do not has not uncovered things that did not previously exist—they have to go through a lengthy legal process to get existed but were not published, so their publication is compensation? what is new today. The really important point he makes will take careful consideration, and those in government The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady makes a number at the time will want to think this through and provide of points. On what the Mayor of London or others have their own answers. The sense I get from the limited look said, the report is important. As I have said, for people I have had at the report is that advice went to Ministers right across the country, whether they are in positions that the behaviour was “depressingly familiar” and that of power and influence or not, the report is the proper the chief constable should resign. The question then is explanation of what happened. People who thought whether the output of that advice resulted in enough that something else happened need to come to their action by that Government and subsequent ones to senses and realise what actually happened. One of the blow away the false narrative that was building up. That moments that struck me in trying to understand what is a very important question that people will want to happened was when the right hon. Member for Leigh consider. (Andy Burnham) gave that address to the fans on that anniversary.When those of us who are not from Merseyside Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Prime Minister and who have not followed this as closely as others saw has done a good thing today and he has done it well. just how many people turned out on that day, we also Surely to God the role of the media should have been saw just what an enormous sense of outrage and injustice to uncover the corruption and the lies, and not to try to remained. That was an important moment. It is now for mask the corruption in the police or effectively to others to understand that the truth is out. Everyone perpetuate it. I know the Prime Minister is very reluctant needs to come to terms with it and to make the right to tell people who should make apologies, but I have arrangements. tried so many times on television and radio programmes to get Kelvin MacKenzie just to say the simple word Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I thank the Prime “sorry”unambiguously, because every ambiguous apology Minister and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the hurts more than saying nothing. Surely to God The Sun Opposition very deeply for their comments and apologies, tomorrow should just say sorry. Surely to God Kelvin and my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy MacKenzie, if he is to go on any media outlet at all, Burnham) for establishing the inquiry in the first place. should be saying sorry. For that matter, surely The It will come as some comfort to the families of my Spectator should say sorry too. constituents who died at Hillsborough on that day. The Prime Minister: I thank the hon. Gentleman for The issue of accountability is central to the debate his kind remarks. We should not forget that some media today. Has the Prime Minister had any indication as yet publications stood up for the families, examined the on which police force could take forward any future issue and helped to get to the truth. We should therefore 305 Hillsborough12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Hillsborough 306

[The Prime Minister] Minister made about the process, may I reiterate to him the inadequacy of the inquest? Up to 59 of those not try to blacken the name of everyone in one go. 96 people could have had a different outcome, judging Clearly, The Sun has always been up there because of by the statement he has made today. The people who that appalling article—“The Truth”—and the appalling have been affected will not feel a sense of justice being things written in it. My view is that Kelvin MacKenzie begun to be done while that flawed, inadequate and needs to take responsibility for that and he should be shoddy inquest remains on the record. very clear about it, but it is for others to decide. My understanding is that The Sun and the police have The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an apologised in the past. Lots of apologies have been important point. There is an entire chapter in the report— made, but the point is that we now have a definitive chapter 8—on the coroner’s inquiry. There is also an guide to what happened. Now is the time for not only additional entire chapter on the 3.15 cut-off—which is the proper, heartfelt “I’m sorry”, but the “Here’s what I an important point that hon. Members will want to got wrong and here’s what I regret.” It is like what we look at carefully—and it seems, from a preliminary say when we deal with our children: sorry is not good reading, to be extremely powerful. enough unless people understand what they screwed up in the first place. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Prime Minister for his statement and for speaking not just for Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): It is clear from the Government, but for the whole of the United Kingdom the Prime Minister’s welcome and important statement of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We are deeply that the prevailing cultures in the Murdoch press, the indebted to him for that. I was aware of some of the police, and health and safety, played their part in the issues, but on TV this morning there was one lady who disaster and the injustice that followed. Will the Prime had lost two children and another lady who had lost Minister undertake to reflect soberly and seriously on one child. The rawness of what took place 23 years ago health and safety to ensure that there is never a return was clear in their faces, and it is clear from the families to the slack culture that led to this tragedy? of the 96 victims, who live with the grief of what took place. Whenever another inquiry or inquest takes place, The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an as it will, what assurance can the Prime Minister give important point. When we talk about trying to deregulate the House that the sensitivity that is needed for the and take small businesses out of health and safety, it is families, who are still grieving today, 23 years later, will not to say that we do not need higher standards of be ensured? safety when there are important issues such as large crowds in big public gatherings. However, in recent The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes an years, we have had too much form over substance. What important point, and I am sure that the Attorney-General, really matters in health and safety is the substance and the Home Secretary and others will listen closely to it. If looking at real risks rather than thinking that some the decision to hold a fresh inquest goes ahead, clearly micro-business that has nothing to do with health and an enormous amount of thought would have to be put safety needs the same sort of regulation as a football into where it is held, how it is held and how to deal with ground. what are incredibly sensitive issues after 23 years. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise that, and if that were to happen, we should discuss it nearer the Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ time. Co-op): I welcome the important statements from the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition this Mr Speaker: I thank the Prime Minister and all afternoon. Notwithstanding the point that the Prime colleagues for their participation. 307 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Coroners and Justice (Amendment) 308

Coroners and Justice (Amendment) albeit almost as a sideline, is the fact that some offenders not only possess, distribute and produce photographs, Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order but possess graphic notes or writings of child abuse. For No. 23) some, the written word is more powerful than pictures. For some, the written word promotes a graphic image in 1.51 pm their minds. I have long been aware of the correlation Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I beg to between those who possess or distribute indecent printed move, material of children and those who commit horrific That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend section 62 of the contact offences against children. Such written material Coroners and Justice Act 2009 to apply additionally to the fuels the fantasies of paedophiles, which is a key factor possession of prohibited written material about children; to make in their offending behaviour. It is therefore vital that we consequential amendments to the Act; and for connected purposes. crack down on any form of indecent material in the Section 62 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 is written form, so that real children can be saved from entitled “Possession of prohibited images of children”. abuse. Such images are pornographic. I wish to add as a I was shown some examples of such material by then prohibition the possession of child abuse pornography Detective Chief Inspector Dave Marshall, who is a in the form of the written word. Some years ago, I went nationally renowned expert in this area. On looking at through one of the early parliamentary police programmes such material, anybody would see that I am not referring with the London Metropolitan police. I highly recommend to writings such as “Lolita”. The written material that I the course. I spent one day, however, with what the am targeting today is absolutely vile. Indeed, it can be Daily Mail and similar call the paedophile unit. It was a as shocking as images described as level 5, based on the shock. I could not believe that people could do such classification used by courts when sentencing for the appalling things to children, including babies. I found offence of possessing indecent images of children. Section 62 the police estimate of active paedophiles in the UK way of the 2009 Act describes prohibited images as beyond anything I could have possibly imagined, and I “pornographic…grossly offensive, disgusting or otherwise…obscene,” was stunned that approximately 20%, they thought, and were female. “of such a nature that it must reasonably be assumed to have been Following the course, I had a meeting with the full produced solely or principally for the purpose of sexual arousal.” Metropolitan team, at which it became apparent that some major and minor legal changes were required. I That description also applies to the written word that I became a member of the then Home Office taskforce, am targeting. I believe that, interestingly, the distribution which led to the Sexual Offences Act 2003, which introduced of such material is already prohibited, but possession is the offence of child grooming. Additionally—either on not. It should be. my own or with others, and with the co-operation of the I understand that there is some concern that any Government of the day—I have helped to introduce change along the lines that I am considering will contravene about a dozen changes. As a Home Office Minister, the EU legislation. However, a number of our EU partner right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East countries have just such legislation now. If it works for (Paul Goggins) was particularly sympathetic and helpful, them, it should work for us. which explains why he is down as my only backer—although Question put and agreed to. I would expect a considerable following if I asked other Ordered, Members across the House. That Sir Paul Beresford and Paul Goggins present This small Bill would close what I believe to be a the Bill. loophole and an anomaly. It is illegal to possess indecent images of children. The Child Exploitation and Online Sir Paul Beresford accordingly presented the Bill. Protection Centre—CEOP—has just published a research Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on document on that very topic. Mentioned in the report, Friday 19 October, and to be printed (Bill 68). 309 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 310

Defamation Bill in regulations. In addition, paragraph (a) requires that a claimant must show that it was not possible for him to Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill identify the person who posted the statement. Amendment 5 Committee clarifies what is meant in paragraph (a) by the word “identify”. Again, concerns were raised in Committee New Clause 1 by the hon. Members for Newcastle-under-Lyme and for Stoke-on-Trent South that the meaning of the word “identify” was unclear and that possible difficulties in ORDER FOR REMOVAL OF DEFAMATORY STATEMENT obtaining the true identity of the author—for example, FROM WEBSITE when he was using a pseudonym—might mean that the ‘(1) Where a court gives judgment for the claimant in an action claimant was left without a remedy. In the light of those for defamation the court may order the operator of a website on which the defamatory statement is posted to remove the concerns, we undertook to consider the position further. statement. Amendment 5 clarifies that, for the purposes of (2) Subsection (1) does not affect the power of the court apart subsection 3(a), it is possible for a claimant to “identify” from that subsection.’.—(Jeremy Wright.) a person only if they have sufficient information to Brought up, and read the First time. bring proceedings against that person. The amendment will ensure that claimants are not left in limbo, unable to bring proceedings against an author because they 1.57 pm lack information that would enable them to do so, but The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice also unable to defeat the defence of the website operator (Jeremy Wright): I beg to move, That the clause be read if the operator failed to take steps to assist. We consider a Second time. that that will ensure that the new process operates fairly and effectively and strikes an appropriate balance between Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it the interests of claimants and those of website operators. will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment 6 makes it clear that if the website Amendment 7, page 3, line 22, leave out clause 5. operator moderates material posted by third-party users Government amendments 5 and 6. on his site, that fact alone will not defeat the defence that is available under clause 5 to a website operator Jeremy Wright: New clause 1 deals with an issue who can show that he did not post the statement raised in Committee by the hon. Member for Newcastle- complained about on his website. We share the view, under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly). He was concerned that expressed by the Joint Committee on the draft Bill and circumstances could arise in which a claimant who had Members of this House, that responsible moderation of successfully brought an action against the author of content should be encouraged. We have listened to the defamatory material online could be left unable to concerns raised in Committee and consider that it would secure the removal of the material. That situation might be helpful to include a provision giving reassurance on arise as a result of the fact that an author might not that point. Amendment 6 therefore provides that the always be in a position to remove material that had defence under clause 5 is not defeated by reason only of been found to be defamatory from a website, while the the fact that the website operator moderates the statements new defence in clause 5 might prevent the website posted on the site by others. operator from being required to do so. The Government There might of course be situations when an operator indicated in Committee that we would consider whether goes too far. They might, for example, moderate content anything further was needed to address such situations. on the website so much as to change the meaning of We have concluded that although such situations are what the author had posted in a way that makes it likely to be rare, it would be appropriate to include a defamatory or increases the seriousness of the defamation. provision in the Bill to ensure that claimants in such In such cases, the courts will have to consider whether cases do not experience any difficulty in securing the the operator’s actions were sufficient for them to be removal of material that has been found to be defamatory. regarded as having posted the material. New clause 1 therefore provides that where a court gives We have considered carefully the merits of seeking to a judgment for the claimant in a defamation action, it prescribe the particular circumstances in which moderation may order the operator of a website on which the might or might not lead to the operator being regarded defamatory statement is posted to remove that statement. as having posted the material. Precisely when an operator Such an order could be made either during proceedings should become responsible for a statement they moderate or on a separate application. New clause 1(2) ensures will depend heavily on the individual circumstances of that the provision does not have any wider effect on the the case. On balance, we think it is right that the courts inherent jurisdiction of the High Court. should have flexibility in making that assessment. We In speaking to new clause 1, it may be helpful if I to consider that these are sensible and helpful amendments speak also to Government amendments 5 and 6, and to that will aid the effective operation of the new process amendment 7, which has been tabled by the hon. Member under clause 5. for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello). Government Amendment 7, by contrast, would remove clause 5 amendment 5 relates to the circumstances in which a from the Bill. I will of course listen carefully to what the claimant might defeat the defence set out in clause 5. hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) Such circumstances are set out in clause 5(3), paragraphs (b) has to say on the matter, but I am sorry to say that we and (c) of which require a claimant to show that he gave do not consider removing the clause to be an appropriate the operator a notice of complaint in relation to the move. The current law in this area is unsatisfactory and statement in question and that the operator failed to has created a situation in which website operators, to respond to it in accordance with provisions to be set out avoid any risk of being sued, choose to remove material 311 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 312 from sites they host on receipt of a complaint, whether notice of amendments on Monday and the Under-Secretary or not the material is actually defamatory. That chills of State’s letter on Tuesday, we found that the Government free speech. have thought again and tabled the new clause. We think However, we recognise that when people are defamed that is sensible and in line with the issues we raised in online they need to be able to take prompt and effective Committee, so we support the change. action to protect their reputation. Including clause 5 in Amendment 5 is about what identifying the author the Bill will mean that the author of a statement is given actually means. It states: an opportunity to defend it, rather than it simply being ‘For the purposes of subsection (3)(a), it is possible for a taken down on receipt of a complaint. Should the need claimant to “identify” a person only if the claimant has sufficient arise, complainants will be able to bring proceedings information to bring proceedings against the person.’ against those truly responsible for statements. That follows the spirit, if not the precise wording, of amendment 18, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): What comment Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), and amendment 42, will the Minister make on the fact that Wikipedia tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle- publishes biographies of people that are then regularly under-Lyme, in Committee. The purpose of both amended to include untrue, defamatory and unpleasant amendments was to clarify the situation in which the language? Does he think that Wikipedia should inform defence is defeated because the claimant could not those people whose biographies have been re-written in identify the author. Again, the Minister at the time, the such a way that causes them damage and then allow a hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), said that truthful statement to be made? At the moment, Wikipedia he would consider it but was not very promising. He is an absolute disgrace, allowing the British National said that amendment 42 party, fascists, anti-Semites and other extremists to alter people’s personal entries. “would effectively require the website operator to provide the claimant with information that they are unlikely to hold, and that they would, in many cases, find difficult to obtain. The amendment Jeremy Wright: I understand exactly what the right would defeat the simple system that the Government intend to hon. Gentleman is saying, but he will appreciate that establish”. the limits of the Bill are quite constrained, and it is On amendment 20, he said that the Government did not difficult within the confines of our discussion on Report consider the processes set out in the Opposition’s to cover all the issues he raises. What I will say is that amendments to be appropriate. He said: clause 5 attempts to strike a balance between protecting freedom of speech on the internet, which he and I are “The aim of clause 5 is to remove the threat of liability from both in favour of, as I am sure is the whole House, and website operators provided that they assist claimants to identify ensuring that there is a quick and effective method by an author of allegedly defamatory material. That process, which will be set out in regulations, will be quick, clear and practical.”– which those who, for example, have their biographies on –[Official Report, Defamation Public Bill Committee, 21 June 2012; Wikipedia amended can address the wrong that is done c. 108-111.] to them. That is the balance we are attempting to strike and that we believe is struck by clause 5 as it stands, which He went on to say that the Opposition amendments cut is why I am afraid we cannot support amendment 7. We across the desire for a simple process. stand by clause 5 but believe that it can be improved, We are very pleased to see Government amendment 5, which is why we ask the House not only to reject which responds to the concerns we raised in Committee amendment 7, but to accept amendments 5 and 6 and and it will ensure that claimants are not left in a new clause 1. position where they have insufficient information to take effective action against an author and would be Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I am pleased prevented from defeating the web operator’s defence. to have the opportunity to speak to Government new We say amen to this amendment. However, I have some clause 1, Government amendments 5 and 6 and our questions about amendment 5 and its coverage, which I amendment 7. Like the Minister, I will speak to them in hope the Minister will be able to clarify in his response. that order. I would like to begin by welcoming the new The first is the difficult issue of jurisdictions. ministerial team. It is great to see them in their places. There are two aspects to jurisdiction and we discussed We in the Opposition hope that they will have a more them in Committee. The first is the simple case in which flexible approach—it already looks as though they will. the claimant is a UK citizen and the author is identified I pay particular tribute to the Under-Secretary of State but lives in a foreign jurisdiction. In that instance, it for Justice, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The might be fairly straightforward to bring proceedings in Weald (Mrs Grant). She is only the second black woman some foreign jurisdictions—if the author were French, to speak from the Government Dispatch Box, and it is a for example, it would be a fairly straightforward matter. great credit to her that she has achieved that. One can think of other places, however, such as the New clause 1 will enable the court to order a website former Soviet states or some parts of Africa, where it operator to remove material if it has been found to be would be extremely difficult to bring proceedings. The defamatory. That follows amendment 44, which was person might be properly identified, but because of the tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle- jurisdictional difficulties, it would be hard to bring under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) in Committee. It covers the proceedings. Does the Minister think this international point where website operators behave in an irresponsible problem is resolved? I suspect that it is not, so the manner and authors cannot remove the material. I must Minister needs to tell us whether it is his intention to say that some cold water was poured on the proposal by crack it or whether he thinks it is too difficult to handle the ministerial team at the time, who were very reluctant here. I hope we will hear something about what can be to consider it, but, lo and behold, when we saw the done about this international problem. 313 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 314

[Helen Goodman] The former Minister, the hon. Member for Huntingdon, wrote to the Committee on 13 June, attaching a note of The second type of international problem is where we proposed procedure under clause 5. We raised our have a sort of dog-legging situation: the claimant is in particular worries about the drafting at the time—I this country, the website operator is abroad, the author raise them again now—as it is not as full as the regulations is in this country and the website operator is not playing would be. The note states: by the rules. I would like the Minister to respond to this “Website operators will be encouraged to set up and publicise problem. the designated email address” Amendment 6 deals with the “defence is not defeated for the purpose of complaints. We have just discussed through moderation” theme. It relates to amendment 17 irresponsible website operators, and we feel that website that was moved in Committee by my hon. Friend the operators must be “required” to set up and publicise a Member for Stoke-on-Trent South. The Minister responded designated e-mail address. to what we proposed by saying that the defence was not As to the contents of the notice of complaint, we affected by having a policy of amending content in come to the issue of why a statement is considered to be terms of moderation. This is an important issue for defamatory. The note says that authors need to appreciate raising the tone on the web. I have had conversations why the words are “inaccurate” or “damaging”—they with local newspaper editors who say that they do not are fine and not controversial—but also mentions want to moderate abusive language because they have “insupportable”. We have not had any explanation of been told that, as the law stands, they then become the meaning of “insupportable”; it is a completely new liable for defamatory statements. Obviously, if we want concept. We want to know whether this is the wording people to use the web, we want the tone of debate on it that will appear in the regulations; we must have some to be civilised and reasonable. It is important that explanation. moderation that neither enhances a defamatory statement The draft note sets out three possible scenarios. The nor removes a defence against such a statement be third scenario is that in which the author replies and allowed. To this extent, we believe that amendment 6 is refuses to agree to the removal of the material. Let me a good one. We are pleased that the Minister has refer to two paragraphs that are of particular concern. brought it forward; it was backed by the Joint Committee The note says: on the draft Bill, too. Of course, the former Minister, the hon. Member for Huntingdon, said that the amendment “If the author indicates that he does not wish his identity and contact details to be released then the website operator must was not necessary, but I am pleased that the new team contact the complainant… to inform him that the author refuses sees that it is. to agree to removal of the material and has requested that his I deal now with amendment 7, tabled by my hon. contact details are not released. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South. I do not If the complainant wishes to take further action he will need to want anyone to think that, having accepted the seek a court order for the website operator to release the identity Government’s improvements to clause 5, which is an and contact details that it has in relation to the author.” extremely weak part of the Bill, we are somehow being I put it to the Minister that his amendment 5 does not churlish in wanting to debate leaving out that clause. resolve the problem of authors’ refusing to hand over When we say we would like to see clause 5 left out, we their identities. In such circumstances, a complainant do not mean that the issue of web operators and defamation will be required to take out a court order—I understand on the web should not be addressed. Obviously, we that it is called a Norwich Pharamcal—to establish who mean that we need a more thorough reform than has the author is. That will require the complainant to been offered by the changes announced by the Minister spend a lot of money, although the Minister’s aim is to this lunch time. Let me spell out to the Minister in a introduce a cheap and easy process that can be used by little more detail what we see as the remaining problems any member of the public. We still have worries about with clause 5. I shall set out our concerns and I hope situation c), and we fear that if they are not properly that he will take them into account and consider looking addressed there is a risk that many authors will take further at clause 5—if not today, then when the legislation advantage of that loophole to avoid their responsibilities. goes to the other place, which is more likely. Having met members of the Hacked Off campaign, I understand that they have devised some wording which they think would resolve the problem. I hope that the 2.15 pm Minister has read it, and will consider incorporating it at a later stage. First, we have not been shown the regulations in draft. The ministerial team has repeatedly said that this Because we have not seen the regulations, we do not is a very complex area—we agree—and that it wanted a know what time limits are envisaged. Everyone agrees simple approach set out in the Bill, with the material that there must be time limits, and that things should fleshed out in regulations. When a Department takes not drag on for months and months; I think it reasonable that view, however, it is normal to bring forward the for us to want to know what those time limits will be. regulations. We made that point in Committee—almost The fact that the notes circulated by the former Minister three months ago—yet we have still not seen the regulations. do not give a proper definition of “website operators” I know that the Ministers have been in their jobs for also makes the position very unclear. only a week, but their predecessors and officials have There are other problems with clause 5 that do not known about this problem for three months. It is relate to the notes. For example, it does not appear to be unacceptable that we still have not had sight of these in line with the e-commerce directive. In Committee my regulations. We requested that the regulations be approved hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South through the affirmative rather than the negative resolution tabled amendment 21, which drew attention to that. process, but that change has not been accepted either. Under the directive, website operators are not liable 315 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 316 unless they know that a statement is unlawful and not I have taken over responsibility for the Bill from my simply defamatory: apparently that is covered by right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and regulations 17, 19 and 22. The lack of consistency with Wallington (Tom Brake), who has joined the Government the directive will make the law unclear. The object of as Deputy Leader of the House. I congratulate him on presenting legislation to the House is to clarify and that. I shall be carrying out a holding operation today improve the law, but it seems that a new source of without other support, but we will bolster our troops confusion is being created, and I should like to hear when the Bill goes to the other place. what the Minister has to say about that. Our general position is that it is absolutely right to One of the recommendations of the Joint Committee, reform the law. These new clauses and amendments which did some excellent work, was that a notice of relate to a matter of great significance out there in the complaint should be put next to a posting that has been real world. As was pointed out by the hon. Member for complained about. I understand that the Minister has Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), this is real live still not tackled that suggestion. I know that those in legislation for 2012 and beyond. Bills, and the drafting the industry say that it would be technically difficult to of Bills, may appear to be somewhat esoteric, but what implement, but they would say that, wouldn’t they? Of is done with websites, how people are held to account course it would cost them some money, but, as the hon. for what is said, how the transmission of information is Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) keeps reminding the managed, and how inappropriately transmitted information House, the internet service providers have an income of is controlled are important issues. £3 billion a year, and I think we can expect them to The right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) spend money on setting up facilities that will give us the also raised the general issue of appropriateness. Items kind of web that we all want. can appear on websites overnight, for instance on Wikipedia, There is a general issue relating to anonymity and the and catching up with them, correcting them and ensuring web with which the Bill does not deal. Many of the that information is accurate is an extraordinarily difficult problems that we experience with the web are driven by job. It may be thought that people’s reputations are not the bad behaviour in which people feel more free to hugely adversely affected by something that may be engage because they are protected by anonymity.Ministers there one day and gone the next, but that is clearly not need to think about that again, because at present the the reality of the world. A message that has appeared Government have no properly co-ordinated approach. on Twitter can subsequently be removed, but by that The Ministry of Justice is trying to deal with the issue stage—I am afraid that I cannot quote “A Midsummer of defamation, the Home Office is trying to deal with Night’s Dream” accurately—it will, like Puck, have the issue of the interception of communications, and gone around the world before anyone has had a chance the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is examining to do anything about it. the economic benefits of the net. We need much more I welcome the Government new clause and the two co-ordination. Labour has a cross-departmental team new Government amendments. All the matters with to deal with the Bill, because we believe in a strategic which they deal were discussed in Committee. It was approach to internet issues. decided that new clause 1 was necessary, and it is a As I said earlier, I think that there is still a major welcome proposed addition to the Bill. It may need to problem with external jurisdictions, and I hope that the be tidied up further, and I am sure the Government do Minister will say something about it, because the Bill is not pretend that this will definitely be the end of the weak on that front. We gave many examples of the conversation. problem in Committee, although I will not repeat them now because I do not want to take up too much time. 2.30 pm The Joint Committee recommended that the Department We debated the issues raised in Government should produce guidance that was clear and simple to amendment 5 in Committee in June. It was requested use. There is no clarity on clause 5. There is no guidance, that something be done, and they have put forward a there are no regulations, and the Government are not proposal. taking a strategic approach. For all those reasons, we The Liberal Democrats have for a long time been will press amendment 7 to a vote later this afternoon. calling for the sort of change that is made by Government amendment 6, because comment moderation is clearly a Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) good thing and should not be discouraged by a risk of (LD): Let me begin by welcoming my colleagues who liability to an author who is trying to moderate and have just joined the team—the new Under-Secretaries improve an intolerant comment. That may need additional of State for Justice, my hon. Friends the Members for work, too, however. Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) and for The Bill has returned to the House earlier than we Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant). I know my expected because of the lacuna in the Government hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald programme caused by a larger Bill—that on House of the better of the two, and have great confidence in her. Lords reform—having been taken out and parked in the If her colleague is as competent as she is, we shall be in sidings for while. As a result, all of us—including the good hands in the days ahead. I also welcome the new Department and the new ministerial team—have been Secretary of State, who I expect will join us later. I have caught short, and I therefore accept that the right place already had the welcome opportunity of holding a brief to deal with a lot of these issues will be the House of conversation with him about the Bill, and I look forward Lords, which is unusual for me because it is my general to a more general conversation with him about it after view that any changes to legislation that originate in the the completion of its House of Commons stages later House of Commons should be undertaken by elected today. representatives in the Commons. We should leave the 317 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 318

Lords to sweep up and do other things, rather than rely to my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for on it as the place to make substantive changes. I accept Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), whom I thought the hon. that this will be a slightly unusual Bill, therefore, and I Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) was will willingly work with colleagues in other parties to very harsh on, as he certainly was involved in the get it into the best possible shape. concessions— I do not think Labour amendment 7 offers the right approach. We should not remove clause 5. The Government Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): The hon. amendments to the clause are welcome and, as the hon. Gentleman was not in Committee. Member for Bishop Auckland half-conceded, removing the clause would be inappropriate as we are adding two Jeremy Wright: Well, I have read the Hansard reports amendments and a new clause to improve its provisions. and I thought the hon. Lady was harsh on my hon. As I have said outside this place to shadow Ministers, Friend. however, I am sure more work will need to be done. So I welcome the official Opposition’s attitude to new long as we all share that attitude, I trust we will be able clause 1 and amendments 5 and 6. The hon. Member to work constructively. for Bishop Auckland made a couple of points, however, If votes are called, I will invite my party colleagues to which I shall try to address. On jurisdiction, the Government support the Government on their new clause and the would not pretend that in this Bill we have resolved the two amendments and to resist the Labour amendment, international problem she describes. As she knows, it is in the knowledge that Ministers, shadow Ministers and an extraordinarily complex problem that requires a other Members are willing to work collaboratively together great deal of work. We are not there yet, and work will and with those outside this place who have taken a good continue. and informed interest in helping us get the law right. On clause 5, claimants can begin proceedings and There is a strong mood in this place and in the country obtain judgments in this country even if the operator of in favour of reform to the law on defamation, as it has the website or the person making the statement is clearly fallen into disrepute. I pay tribute to those who abroad. Then, of course, the issue becomes one of have done all the work so far, and I support the enforcement of judgments. There are international Government, who are clearly in a constructive mood to agreements with some countries for that, but I do not improve the Bill. pretend that the situation is perfect, and we will look again at what we can do to improve it. The fact that we Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): May I cannot do everything should not mean we do nothing, both welcome the new ministerial team and put on however, and this Bill goes a considerable way to dealing record my sadness that the hon. Member for Huntingdon with many of the problems. (Mr Djanogly) will not pilot the Bill through? He did a On amendment 6, I entirely agree with what the hon. lot of work on the Bill. He said he would reconsider Lady said about the desirability of moderation on certain details in respect of websites, and the Government websites. We do not want disincentives to that, which is have brought forward amendments, which I welcome. why we have tabled amendment 6, and I am grateful for New clause 1 seeks to address a perverse and, no her support for it. doubt, unintended anomaly, whereby so long as a website There is no consensus on amendment 7, however. I operator complies with all the requirements and delivers cannot subscribe to the hon. Lady’s view that clause 5 up the identity of the poster, they can continue to should be removed. I acknowledge that she said it is not publish content on the site. I pointed out that anomaly the official Opposition’s intention simply to leave the in Committee, using the example of a political website problem in question unaddressed by removing the clause, that, having complied, continued to run defamatory but, for the purposes of Report stage, that is the effect material about rivals for the sheer mischief of it. This is of her amendment. It would remove clause 5 and it a live issue. would not replace it with anything. It is important to I have one principal question. The new clause seems bear that in mind. to be very narrowly drawn. It appears to say that the We will be seeking views on regulations. It is important claimant must first succeed in an action for defamation to ensure that a broad range of views are sought, and for the court to be able to order a website operator to that we make sure we get things right. We hope to have take down material. The amendments I tabled in secured the necessary input by the end of the year. Committee, but then withdrew, were broader. They covered, for instance, circumstances where an individual The hon. Lady referred to the note of proposed could ask for an injunction ordering that material be procedure presented to the Committee. It was never taken down in advance of an action for libel, which intended that that should be the regulations. That was might, of course, take some time to be heard. Is it the intended as an indication of the Government’s thinking Government’s intention that courts should be able to on these matters. Clearly, a good deal of detail is yet to issue injunctions or other orders only after a successful be confirmed. I hope she will accept that that note was libel action? It would also be helpful if the Minister designed merely to give an indication of where we are could clarify the meaning of subsection (2) of the new headed. clause. The hon. Lady made a perfectly fair point about authors refusing to hand over their contact details, Jeremy Wright: I thank Members for their kind words rightly saying that if they refuse to hand those over to of welcome to me and my fellow Justice Minister, my website operators we will still be requiring claimants to hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald go to court to obtain the Norwich Pharmacal orders, of (Mrs Grant). I also echo the tribute the hon. Member which she is now intimately aware, and that will put for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) has just paid them to expense. That is true but, again, I say to her and 319 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 320 to the House that we are trying to strike that delicate new clause 1 is narrowly drafted, and that is so to a balance between the interests of defendants and the degree. The problem is that with a wider amendment interests of claimants. Our procedure attempts to make the Government would risk continuing the situation things easier for claimants, in respect of authors who do where people who run websites take down statements not want to say who they are to the website operator, in that they fear may be defamatory and that may leave which case their comments will, of course, be taken them open to condemnation without those statements down from the website, as well as for authors who are necessarily being defamatory. That is why we have made prepared to make their contact details available and our judgment in new clause 1 that only when a judgment whose details will then be passed on by the website has been reached will the order be available for courts operator to the claimant. The hon. Lady said that the to make to ensure that those statements can be taken Hacked Off campaign has wording that may resolve down. this problem. If that is the case, I am sure that Lord McNally, who is dealing with this matter in the other place, will be delighted to hear from the campaign and 2.45 pm will give that full consideration. Mr MacShane: Inadvertently, the Minister has just As for the suggestion of placing a notice of complaint torn up, buried, driven a stake through one of the oldest next to the posting that was originally causing the principles of journalism: when in doubt, leave it out. problem, I do not think it is fair to say that it is simply a That has saved a lot of newspapers in a lot of countries problem of cost. As I understand it, potentially defamatory from defamation cases, so it is a very good idea. He is statements may be embedded in more than one website. reversing that by saying, “Let it be published. If you We therefore also face the problem of deciding which have doubts, let’s see whether the person we are defaming website operator should be responsible for placing a can get an action and then a decision from a court notice of complaint next to the posting, and that technical judge.” I hope that when the Bill goes to the other place problem should not be entirely passed over. we will enshrine the very good principle of journalism: when in doubt, do not publish and leave it out. The hon. Lady rightly highlights a wider problem for the Government in respect of anonymity on websites. Again, it is right to say, in the interests of balance, that Jeremy Wright: The right hon. Gentleman slightly anonymity can in some cases be entirely justified. over-dramatises the position; I am not saying that at all. Whistleblowers are the most obvious example in that regard, I am saying that particular circumstances apply to the and we would not wish to legislate in a way that prevented clause dealing with website operators. New clause 1 is whistleblowers from acting under cover of anonymity. designed to assist us in striking the balance that I have We hope that, under the procedures in clause 5, if mentioned several times. We hope that the effect of the someone maintains their anonymity and refuses to give Bill as a whole will be to encourage all those inclined their details to the website operator, any defamatory towards publishing statements that are potentially statement or potentially defamatory statement that is defamatory to think carefully before they do so. However, complained about will be taken down from the website. we want to strike the right balance between that and Finally, may I reassure her that nothing in the Bill ensuring that people are not so afraid of having actions conflicts with the e-commerce regulations? brought against them that they do not allow free speech to operate, either on the internet or elsewhere. I have I very much welcome the support of my right hon. accepted many times that this is a delicate balance to Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark strike, but we believe that we have done our best to (Simon Hughes) for new clause 1 and for amendments 5 strike it. and 6. He rightly echoes the comments of the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) about the Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): What difficulty of catching up with Wikipedia. The internet would have happened if 22 years ago someone had had in general is a fast-changing landscape. All of us, as a website and they had published their suspicion that legislators, are running to catch up with it and to do our the police had had statements altered in regard to a best to ensure that we achieve the right balance between great tragedy such as Hillsborough? Let us suppose that freedom of speech and the protection of those who may the police had then taken out a defamation action. be defamed within that arena. First, would they have been disqualified from doing so My right hon. Friend is also right to say that further as a public body? Secondly, if an individual police consideration of the Bill will be given by Lord McNally, officer took out that action, what defence would have with whom I know he is in conversation, and by the been available to the person who may have been present other place. However, my right hon. Friend will recognise, at the tragedy, and who may have had inside knowledge to be fair to this place, that there has at least been some of what the police statements had contained and how movement by the Government on this clause. Even with they came out in public? the time constraints imposed on us, we have been able to shift our ground somewhat through the amendments Jeremy Wright: My hon. Friend raises some fair I have proposed today. questions. I know that he will forgive me if I do not That brings me to the comments made by the hon. litigate a case that may or may not have happened Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly). He 22 years ago. As he knows, there is various case law on deserves thanks, and I pay tribute to him, for his assiduous these issues as they affect public authorities and contributions in Committee. His contribution, along defamation—if he will forgive me, I will not go down with that of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South that road. However, I will urge the hon. Member for (Robert Flello), has obviously moved us towards the Bishop Auckland not to press amendment 7— Government amendments that I have proposed today. The hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme says that Paul Farrelly rose— 321 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 322

Jeremy Wright: Before doing so, I will give way, one 1995. They were meant to provide greater access to last time, to the hon. Gentleman. justice for those who did not qualify for legal aid but were unable to afford legal representation. Defamation Paul Farrelly: The Minister has been clear that he cases were never covered by legal aid. wishes courts to make orders only after successful From 1995 until April 2000, there was limited take-up defamation cases. What he has not answered is my of CFAs, as some of the costs were still borne by the question about the meaning of subsection (2) of the claimant. The Access to Justice Act 1999, which came new clause, which refers to subsection (1) not affecting into effect in 2000, introduced significant changes and “the power of the court”. reduced the scope of legal aid, particularly for personal The courts, of course, have the power to issue injunctions. injury, on the basis that those cases could now rely on CFAs. At the same time, the 1999 Act made CFAs more Jeremy Wright: Of course they do. The hon. Gentleman usable by allowing the recoverability of the success fee is right to say that I omitted to mention that and of and the after-the-event insurance premium. It therefore course that is exactly the point. The court’s right to make became possible for people to take legal action without injunctions remains, and although interim injunctions the fear of losing everything because of significant cost are rare, they are still available. The purpose of the implications, although it was still necessary, of course, subsection is to ensure that they remain so. With that, to find a lawyer willing to take the case because, if they I ask that hon. Members support new clause 1 lost, the lawyer would lose his or her fee. That is an and amendments 5 and 6, and I urge them to resist important point at which to pause for consideration, as amendment 7. lawyers would therefore prefer to take on only those Question put and agreed to. cases that they believed they could win. New clause 1 accordingly read a Second time, and Just so we are clear, damages awarded to claimants in added to the Bill. defamation cases are typically between £10,000 and £20,000, whereas the costs of such litigation frequently run to many hundreds of thousands of pounds, but the Government now seem to think that the fees lawyers New Clause 2 charge will come down if fewer people can get access to justice. Two situations could arise—[Interruption.] Before DISAPPLICATION OF LEGAL AID,SENTENCING AND I explain them, let me welcome the Secretary of State, PUNISHMENT OF OFFENDERS ACT 2012 who has just taken his place on the Treasury Bench. ‘Sections 44 and 46 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Let us consider a situation in which a person feels Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 shall not apply in relation to that they have been defamed, perhaps by the media, as civil actions for defamation, malicious falsehood, breach of is too often the case and as happened in the horrendous confidence, privacy or publication proceedings.’.—(Robert and tragic case we heard about earlier. The claimant Flello.) would currently be able to agree a no win, no fee Brought up, and read the First time. agreement, and if the person won, he or she would keep their damages and the lawyer would be entitled to get a Robert Flello: I beg to move, That the clause be read a success fee of between 10% and 100% depending on the Second time. conduct of the case. The insurance premium could also I have already welcomed both new Ministers to their be recovered. The cumulative effect of the cases that places while in a Committee, but I shall repeat the lawyers win helps them to offset the costs of the cases exercise because it is welcome to see them both on the that they lose. If the claimant loses, the insurers will pay Front Bench today. The spirit of consensus that was the other side’s costs. started on Second Reading ran into some thick treacle Let me give some examples of ordinary people who in the Public Bill Committee, but perhaps a fresh approach have been libelled or intruded on by the media and with a fresh set of Ministers will allow us to return to would otherwise not have been able to afford legal those heady days. representation. Robert Murat was grossly defamed after I make no apology for bringing the new clause to the the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and won attention of the House. It was tabled by my hon. Friend significant damages from almost a dozen news outlets. the Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) in He was supported by the use of a CFA. We all know Committee only for us to run out of time to have a that Christopher Jefferies was “monstered” by the press proper debate and a proper Government response. It is after he was arrested for questioning by the police in the important that right hon. and hon. Members on both Joanna Yeates murder trial, despite the fact that Jefferies sides of the Chamber understand the situation and the was released after two days without charge. It is difficult context in which we propose the new clause. to see how he could have received fair redress without If I use the term “CFAs”, I hope everyone knows that the use of a CFA. I am referring to conditional fee agreements. I will also refer to after-the-event insurance, and I might slip into Sir Peter Bottomley: Was the case of Mr Jefferies, calling them ATEs. Some extremely knowledgeable which the hon. Gentleman rightly raises, pursued under Members will have no problem understanding CFAs, defamation law or some other provision? ATEs and various other acronyms, but I hope the House in general will be clear what I mean if I use them. Robert Flello: I refer the hon. Gentleman to my new Conditional fee agreements, also known as no win, clause; I think he will then get the point. no fee agreements, were first made possible in personal Sylvia Henry was a social worker who was wrongly injury cases by secondary legislation under the Courts accused of being negligent in the Baby P case. As a and Legal Services Act 1990 and were introduced in consequence, she was horrendously defamed and banned 323 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 324 from carrying out child protection work. The CFA My new clause also covers privacy cases, and there helped her to challenge the press’s accusations. A newspaper can be better illustration of the harm that the LASPO we have heard mentioned many times today, The Sun, Act will cause than the terrible case involving Milly apologised after reporting that Mr Abdul Patel was an Dowler. Sally Dowler has gone on record, saying: evil terrorist who had been jailed for his part in a “At the outset we made clear that if we had to pay the lawyers, transatlantic terror plot. Mr Patel has never, as the we could not afford to bring a claim; or if we had any risk of paper acknowledged, had any involvement with terrorism having to pay the other side’s costs, we couldn’t take the chance. If acts. He was helped by a CFA. Finally, Elaine Chase the proposed changes had been in place at that time we would not was a paediatric community nurse who was falsely have made a claim. Simple as that, the News of the World would accused by The Sun, on the front page and inside that have won, because we could not afford to take them on.” paper, of hastening the deaths of 18 terminally ill That is why it is so important to exempt defamation and children by over-administering morphine. She fought other matters covered by my new clause from the LASPO and won her case with the support of a CFA. Act. We are not alone. Even Lord Justice Jackson talked We will now have a double whammy under this Bill about moderated success fees, but the Government have and the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders not included his proposals to mitigate the impact of the Act 2012, whereby a claimant will, quite rightly, have to LASPO Act. The Bill rebalances defamation law in pass a higher test to bring the claim but will also need favour of defendants. If we do not remove cases from the financial resources to go to law. Is that fair? How the LASPO Act, we will condemn wrongly accused many people who have been defamed will have the case people to not receiving justice. How can that be right? to go to court but not the means, and will therefore have no way of clearing their name? We did not have sufficient time to explore the issue fully in Committee, so let me take the opportunity to Let us consider the other side of the argument, which put on record what was said in a letter to the Prime is the position of the defendant. As the relevant part of Minister on 26 March, in advance of the final stages of the LASPO Act is not yet in force, a defendant also has the LASPO Bill. The letter was signed by Christopher the ability to use no win, no fee conditional fee agreements Jefferies, Gerry and Kate McCann, Peter Wilmshurst, and after-the-event insurance. If the defendant is successful, Robert Murat, Hardeep Singh, Nigel Short and Zoe the lawyer gets paid and receives a success fee from the Margolis. claimant. Of course, the defendant does not receive damages. Alternatively, if the defendant loses the lawyer 3pm does not get paid but the ATE policy pays the claimant’s You will be relieved to hear, Mr Deputy Speaker, that costs. I shall not read the entire letter, but it is important that the House hears the important points that it makes. It Let me give a couple of examples to illustrate my says: point. Members of the Public Bill Committee will be “We strongly object to the passing of this unjust measure and familiar with the case of Peter Wilmshurst, but it is urge you”— important that it is understood by the wider House. Peter Wilmshurst was a scientist who was sued by the the “you” is the Prime Minister— American pharmaceutical firm NMT Medical after he “to amend it before it is too late…Of course we are the first to criticised its research at a US cardiology conference in recognise that legal costs in many cases are too high and also that some reforms are justified, but the bill includes changes to Conditional 2007 and his comments were quoted by a journalist. Fee…Agreements and to After-The-Event…Insurance schemes Henrik Thomsen, a Danish radiologist, was sued by GE which will effectively make them non-viable in libel and privacy Healthcare for comments he made about a drug, again cases, where financial damages to a successful claimant are far at a conference. If they had been unable to rely on CFAs too small to cover these costs as the bill currently proposes they and ATEs, they probably would not have been able to should. So only the rich could take on a big newspaper group. A defend themselves at all. successful libel defendant obviously does not get any damages so these reforms will prevent all but the rich from being able to As a result of the LASPO Act, defendants will now defend their right to free speech against wealthy or corporate libel be faced with three options. First, they can issue a claimants. Although the aim of reducing costs is very laudable, grovelling apology, even if they were absolutely right to the position of lower and middle income claimants and defendants in these types of cases has simply been ignored. say what they did, and hope that that is sufficient to avoid being sued. Secondly, they can try to defend Even if a lawyer will take a high-profile case without a ‘success fee’ that compensates for the risk of losing some cases, or even themselves in court without legal assistance or any legal does the case pro-bono, there is still the enormous risk to defendants advice and face losing; they will also probably face and claimants that if they lose, they will have to pay the other highly paid, highly skilled lawyers on the side of a side’s costs. A person of ordinary means in that position basically major corporation. Thirdly, they can try to scrape together has the choice of living with injustice or risk losing their home…In the money to pay a lawyer while bearing in mind that if practice this means that in future ordinary defendants…will also they lose, the cost might wipe out all their resources. Do be unable to get support for legal action taken against them often we really want eminent doctors and scientists running by large institutions with deep pockets trying to silence them. the risk of losing everything, or preferring not to take That would be bad news for science and medicine, for free religious debate and for transparency in the public interest…We the risk and retracting what they said, even though it urge you to take action now to amend the Legal Aid, Sentencing might be correct and that scientific and medical research and Punishment of Offenders bill.” might save lives? Of course, the Minister will say that Obviously, such action was not taken. Subsequently, the the barrier to pursuing a case will be higher once this Prime Minister promised the Dowler family that, prior Bill is enacted and that that will stop vexatious and to the abolition of no win, no fee, there would be a intimidatory claims, but that will not happen without regime in place that would protect claimants, but no an early strike-out route. such regime has been established to date. 325 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 326

If we cannot get things right in this House, I trust I must disclose a form of interest in the Bill because that, when the Bill reaches the other place, Lord McNally there was a time when I knew quite a lot about the law will honour a promise he made to Lord Prescott. Let of defamation, although I then spent two years as a me remind those hon. Members who might be blissfully Law Officer during which I forgot all the law I ever unaware of what was said. When Lord Prescott, the knew. While I was listening to the hon. Member for former Deputy Prime Minister, was moving an amendment Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), I was reminded to the LASPO Bill, he said: of our debates during the passage of the Bill that “I have benefited from the current no-win no-fee arrangement became the Access to Justice Act 1999. At that time, it in pursuing my case against the Murdoch press and the Metropolitan was apparent that the then Labour Government were Police. I would not have been able to pursue that case without not terribly interested in providing access to justice, and such an arrangement because, quite simply, I would not have been I said that that Bill would more properly be called the able to afford it. This Bill strengthens the media’s case by reducing Denial of Access to Justice Bill. However, that was a their costs, even if they are found guilty and damages are awarded long time ago. against them. However, not only does it reduce their costs but it transfers the costs to the successful complainant. However one I come to our debate on the new clause untrammelled looks at it, it is not justice for the person who wins the case to be by any knowledge of sections 44 and 46 of the Legal penalised by further costs.” Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, Lord McNally’s ministerial response was very clear: but I did listen to the hon. Gentleman’s speech. I do not think that my hon. Friend the Minister will have to look “I give noble Lords as full an assurance as I can. Bills have to very hard to find the references that the hon. Gentleman go through Cabinets and Cabinet committees, et cetera, but they was after, but if the situation is as it has been described, also have to go through two Houses of Parliament, where this issue is extremely live. I cannot imagine that the kind of issues that would be a pity, to say the least. that the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, has raised tonight will not be If the words of my noble Friend Lord McNally that dealt with fully in that Defamation Bill.” were cited are to mean anything, I trust that the Government In anticipation of Lord McNally’s response, Lord Prescott will do something about the problem, because a failure had said: to provide access to justice for people without deep pockets should not be encouraged. Conditional fee “The Minister is talking about whether this can be put into the arrangements—I have benefited from one or two—do Defamation Bill. If it is right to put it in that Bill, why wait? I fear that when the Defamation Bill is debated it will be all about not cost the Government any money. They are not an defamation costs but there will be very little about privacy breaches, ideal system of achieving access to justice, but they are which is what the amendment is concerned with…To duck behind a way of allowing those without access to funds from the Defamation Bill and say that it will be dealt with then is trade unions, companies, employers or others to bring frankly not giving the issue the justice that it is entitled to. I am or resist actions for defamation. I therefore hope that saying that we should side with the weak in this case, not the the Government will consider carefully—if not today, powerful. Let us have justice. That is what this place is about.”— during the gap between the Bill leaving this House and [Official Report, House of Lords, 27 March 2012; Vol. 736, its consideration in the other place—arrangements whereby c. 1324-1332.] those without funds can defend either their reputation Let me repeat Lord McNally’s crucial words: or a defamation claim. “I cannot imagine that the kind of issues that the noble Lord, That said, I hope that the Minister’s speech will Lord Prescott, has raised tonight will not be dealt with fully in persuade the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South that Defamation Bill.” that it is not necessary to press new clause 2 to a I, like many others, have pored over every line of the Division. I hope that we can take the Minister’s word Defamation Bill, so perhaps the Minister will be able to that the matter will be given a lot more thought before shine a light and point out where the Bill fully deals the Bill reappears in the other place. Knowing my hon. with such issues. New clause 2 would flush out those Friend, I think that we can be reasonably sure that that hidden words, and if the Minister cannot find them in will be the case. the Bill, let us agree to the new clause so that they are put in. I hope that he will either highlight where those Paul Farrelly: I support the comments of my hon. words have hidden themselves, or find a way of ensuring Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert that we get what was promised. Flello) and the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr Garnier), who I see is still plain “Mr Garnier” on Mr Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): It is a the monitors. pleasure to speak in the debate because it gives me the It has been a long road to libel reform. For newspapers opportunity to congratulate my hon. Friends the Members and other media, the real issue is cost. Responsible for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) and for newspapers have been concerned about conditional fee Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) on their promotion agreements with 100% success fees and the sheer costs to the Government. I cannot think of two finer people involved in such cases, especially as it seemed to be a to receive such an honour. I served on several Public Bill case of “always win, double the fee”. Of course, we have Committees with my hon. Friend the Member for heard examples where that is not the case: my hon. Kenilworth and Southam when we were in opposition, Friend cited the case of Dr Peter Wilmshurst, consultant and I could not think why he was not made a Minister cardiologist at Royal Shrewsbury hospital and our local as soon as we came into government. At least he got University hospital of North Staffordshire, who needed there in the end, however, and I sincerely trust that he that measure to be able to defend himself and give some will stay in his post for a good long time, not least certainty in a fraught situation to his family that, if he because the Bill is of considerable public importance were to lose his case, all their worldly goods would not and interest. be forfeit. 327 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 328

Over time, proposals have been made, including by dissuaded me from doing it. If those risks might have Lord Justice Jackson and my right hon. Friend the dissuaded me and anyone on a salary similar to mine, Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who laid a statutory how much more would they have dissuaded people instrument which was—almost uniquely—defeated by earning a lower salary, much less experienced than I in a cross-party ambush in Committee, because Members such matters—not a lawyer—and not used to dealing felt so strongly about the issues involved. In addition, with the media? We have to be realistic about the the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, of which I relevance of the issue and be aware of the need to am a member, produced proposals to limit the uplift in continue the debate. fees to 10%, rather than 100%, and not to recover after-the-event premiums—often, there is a false market 3.15 pm in those premiums. I will put on the record now my New clause 2 would remove the provision of the belief that, in that report, we went too far, but our Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders proposal was not to abolish an uplift, which would Act 2012, passed at the end of the previous Session, and encourage lawyers to take on difficult cases, in their return to the status quo. My party has formally debated entirety. On the one hand, we are reforming libel law to the matter at our conference and is clear that reform of protect responsible journalism, but on the other hand, the law is needed. This has been the subject of two or we are potentially denying people access to justice, and I three debates relating to phone hacking specifically and think the whole environment has become unbalanced. to libel law reform more generally. Campaigners on both sides—both those who might be claimants and What we have to remember, with phone hacking and those who might be defendants—have supported some Lord Leveson soon to report, is that we have a macho reform of the law. Strong arguments have been made to media world and some highly aggressive corporations. cap success fees and to replace after-the-event insurance If we remove people’s ability to fight to restore their with cost shifting. The Government made a promise—it reputation, we risk giving a carte blanche to libel and was cited by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South going back to the bad old days when the only questions (Robert Flello)—to address the issue. As colleagues a newspaper asked were, “How much have they got? might imagine, I have discussed the subject with my Can they afford to sue us?” noble Friend Lord McNally, whose commitment to making progress is on the record. I am sure that the Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): There seems to be Government, with my noble Friend remaining as Minister some consensus that the main obstacle to pursuing a of State with a new team around him, will not lose sight defamation claim would be lack of cash. Does my hon. of the fact that this is unfinished business. Friend agree that, rather than resolve that crucial issue, The simple facts are that damages in privacy and libel the Government’s proposals could make the situation cases are often relatively small and the legal costs often worse? relatively large. That is the imbalance. It is not always the case, but it is often the case. There is real concern Paul Farrelly: I entirely agree. I do not propose a that the effective removal of success fees will mean that return to the bad old regime, but I hope that the lawyers will no longer be able to offer conditional fee Government will give some thought to the remarks agreements and that that will prevent all but the wealthy made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent from taking action. Even more important, it could be South and the hon. and learned Member for Harborough. argued, the abolition of insurance premiums would The situation is unbalanced now and we need to address mean that people risked their homes and other assets on that. legal action against a newspaper. To return to my starting So often, if people do not sue, our media do not take point, most of the victims of phone hacking have made them seriously. That simply increases the licence to it clear that they would not have been able to bring libel. I know people who defend responsible journalism claims had it not been for conditional fee agreements. and investigative journalists who have had to take that I am glad that this unfinished business is on the course of action because newspapers with an agenda agenda, but I do not think that we can deal with it have been out to get them; if they did not threaten or appropriately here and now simply by accepting the take legal action, the situation would never change. I new clause—well intentioned and perfectly understandable believe the culture of our media needs to be borne in though it is. I look forward to the wider debate that we mind, as we will be reminded when Lord Leveson will have on other matters and hope that, before the Bill reports next month. becomes law, we will have arrived at a position in which the rights of “the ordinary person” or “the ordinary Simon Hughes: I welcome back to our debates the citizen” are defended and they are not at a disadvantage former Solicitor-General, whom I thank for his work in when defending their reputation against people who are that office. It was much appreciated and I wish him well much more powerful and influential than they are. in considering things from a non-Government and non- Sir Peter Bottomley: On 24 May, in a written ministerial Law-Officer perspective. statement, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon I declare an interest that means that I will not vote on (Mr Djanogly) spelled out the exceptions to implementation the new clause if it is pressed to a Division. I am the of sections 44 and 46 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and recent recipient of a conditional fee agreement in the Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, stating that there well publicised series of actions against News International. would be a delay in implementation for cases involving Even though, like all my colleagues here, I am on a mesothelioma and insolvency. He referred to the Civil parliamentary salary of more than £60,000 a year, had I Justice Council, which was to carry out a review. I not been offered a conditional fee agreement the prospect suspect that I would not come to a firm view on the of taking News International to court subject to the proposal currently before the House without hearing risks that, in theory, followed from that might well have from that review, so that is an argument for delaying. 329 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 330

[Sir Peter Bottomley] considerable professional expertise, as we all know, to the debate? I also welcome the contributions of other It is clear—I am not a lawyer or a parliamentary right hon. and hon. Members who have spoken. draftsman—that it is open to the Government to make I am delighted that the hon. Member for Hammersmith by statutory instrument exceptions or changes. The Bill (Mr Slaughter) is speaking for the Opposition. He and I might not be the right place to deal with issues that go spent many happy hours discussing the Legal Aid, beyond defamation. Our debate is in order; otherwise Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, but I am the decision to select the new clause would not have sure that neither he nor I nor you, Mr Deputy Speaker, been made by the Speaker or his advisers, although I would want to rerun all those happy hours. I accept the was a bit surprised by it. provisions under consideration relate to the substantive We must be clear in our minds whether aid should be law of defamation; we are not here to review LASPO, qualified by cost shifting or by conditional fee agreements which was subject to full parliamentary scrutiny—as I for both claimants and defendants. To do it only one recall, very full parliamentary scrutiny—before receiving way would be a bit odd. To do it both ways would be a Royal Assent only a few months ago. bit like the old civil disputes in families—costs might It is important to make clear what the Government’s rocket for issues that should be determined in different proposals will do. We are not talking about removing ways. access to CFAs. We are talking about reforming and I ought to declare that I have been involved in a changing CFAs. The basic rationale for those reforms is number of defamation actions. I have been defamed that we wish to rebalance the system to make it fairer more often that I have taken action. If anyone hacked between claimants and defendants and correct the anomaly my phone, the only defamatory stuff they would hear whereby those who bring cases have no incentive to would be my wife telling me I ought to be at home, keep an eye on legal costs. At the moment, the recoverability rather than in the House of Commons Chamber. of success fees and insurance premiums from the losing In the early 1980s, a newspaper said that I was going side can have the perverse effect of preventing defendants to stand for one party, but switch to another one later, from fighting cases, even when they know they are in which was clearly defamatory. When I asked the journalist the right, for fear of disproportionate legal costs if they involved what had happened, he said that the story had lose. been improved by the sub-editing process, and asked High and disproportionate costs have a negative impact, whether I was going to sue. I said no. Later, he asked not just because they can deny access to justice but, why I did not do so, as everyone else got £25,000 each. more broadly, because they can lead people to change That was not damaging to me, as the journalist explained their behaviour in damaging ways because of the fear of what the process was and I did not mind. The idea that claims. Nowhere is that more true, as has been said in if I had no money I could go to a lawyer and ask them, our debate, than in relation to responsible journalism, at the expense of their other clients or of the public as well as in relation to academic and scientific debate. purse to take action, in a case in which there was not In MGN v. the UK—the so-called Naomi Campbell substantial damage to me, strikes me as absurd. privacy case—in January 2011, the European Court of There are therefore counter-arguments to the cases Human Rights found that the existing CFA arrangements, raised by Lord Prescott and others. [Interruption.] My with recoverability in that instance, which the new clause hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough would preserve, were incompatible with the right to (Mr Garnier) says that it is not compulsory to sue, and I freedom of expression under article 10 of the European made that point when I was asked why I never sued convention on human rights. Auberon Waugh who made a living out of me for about four years. Editors and journalists have long warned of the chilling effect of the current libel regime and argued I have, however, taken serious action in some cases. that part of the problem is the huge costs that no win, This does not fall directly under the new clause, but it is no fee cases impose. However, as others have said, the only occasion on Report when I can mention it in defendants are not always rich and powerful newspapers— passing. I was successful in making a claim that lasted a they are also scientists, non-governmental organisations, week and a half in the High Court. The newspaper campaigners, academics and on occasion, it seems, my group concerned was aggrieved that the jury found hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter against it, and said that it was going to appeal on the Bottomley). It is important that when we discuss balance— grounds that the judge’s summing up was deficient. If this has been a theme of our conversations and debates that appeal had been approved, I could not have gained so far—we recognise what else is going on. We should any more money, because the award was not going to be recall that clause 1 says that defendants will not be increased. Costs would only have gone up, and not all subject to actions for defamation, whatever their means, of them would have been recoverable. Those who look unless the claimant can demonstrate that he or she has after the procedure rules ought to watch out for such suffered serious harm. That is important in this context. abuse by big, powerful people. It is also important to recognise that we intend to make Having said that, there are other issues to which I procedural changes—this relates very much to the remarks wish to pay more attention on Report. The point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West—to by the Civil Justice Council about the opportunity to try to reduce the costs that are paid by both sides, or make changes by statutory instrument is a better way of either side, in the course of defamation actions. We dealing with the matter than by doing so in the Bill. believe that considerable progress can be made in that Jeremy Wright: May I begin by expressing pleasure at regard. seeing my hon. and learned Friend the Member for The CFA changes that we intend to make will apply Harborough (Mr Garnier)—if he is not a right hon. to all areas of civil litigation as set out in the Legal Aid, Gentleman, he should be—in the Chamber, as he brings Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act, and will 331 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 332 do so from April 2013, apart from, as my hon. Friend implications of taking a case without CFA, what about reminded us, in mesothelioma and insolvency cases. constituents who are in a far worse position? That goes The Government believe that any further exceptions to to the crux of our concerns and is the reason for new the CFA reforms are unnecessary. Our CFA reforms clause 2. will ensure that meritorious claims can still be brought, but at more proportionate cost. However, I share the concern that individuals who are not wealthy or powerful 3.30 pm sometimes need to bring defamation or privacy cases. How long must we wait for reform? A promise was Nothing in our proposals should prevent this where a made when we debated the Legal Aid, Sentencing and case is a good one. Punishment of Offenders Bill. The draft Bill did not As the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul mention defamation costs to ensure that people can Farrelly) said, there is a degree of cross-party consensus afford to take action if they are defamed or if they want on this. In March 2010, the then Labour Justice Minister, to defend themselves. The Joint Committee has done Lord Bach, said: some excellent work, but it has not resulted in anything “There is a substantial body of opinion that 100 per cent that protects claimants and defendants. There was nothing recoverable success fees should not continue in defamation cases.”— in the Bill on Second Reading or when it was debated in [Official Report, House of Lords, 25 March 2010; Vol. 718, Committee, and we are now on Report and still nothing c. 1156.] has been suggested. I hear what the right hon. Member That was on the back of a consultation that said that for Bermondsey and Old Southwark says, but how long “immediate steps are needed in respect of defamation proceedings”. must we wait for an answer? The hon. Member for It was the Labour Government’s policy to reduce the Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) noted that the impact of success fees in defamation and privacy cases. Government have already made exceptions on mesothelioma and recounted his own examples of being The Bill and the procedural reforms that we intend to defamed. take forward with it are about reducing the complexity and therefore the expense involved in defamation cases. The Minister is right to say that the LASPO Bill, In order for those aims to be achieved, on 27 March 2012 which is now the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment Lord McNally gave a commitment in the other place of Offenders Act 2012, received full parliamentary scrutiny. that we will look at the rules on costs protection for I recall that the Government suffered 14 defeats in defamation and privacy proceedings. That is very much trying to get it into some sort of shape that was halfway in accordance with what my right hon. Friend the to what it should have been. Yes, there is a rebalancing Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon between claimants and defendants in the Defamation Hughes) said. We will look at the rules for costs protection Bill, but if we want to tackle costs, surely the Government for defamation and privacy proceedings before the should have addressed that and not stopped those without defamation reforms come into effect. I repeat that means being able to get justice. commitment here today. There is clearly more work to I may have misheard the Minister—if he wants to do, and I know that my noble Friend will be keen to intervene, I will certainly allow him to do so—but he consider the matter further. seemed to defend newspapers that fear the chilling In view of those remarks, I hope that the hon. Member effects of defamation claims. Undoubtedly, newspapers for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) will, on reflection, have been on the receiving end of defamation law suits, feel able to withdraw new clause 2. but my sympathy lies with the ordinary person in the street and our constituents, not the deep pockets of the Robert Flello: The hon. and learned Member for newspapers. Harborough (Mr Garnier) suggested that the Defamation Act 1999 was a denial of justice. If he feels that way, he Jeremy Wright: Let me be clear about what I said: it must be incredibly upset about what happened under has long been argued by newspaper editors that there is the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders a chilling effect on freedom of speech and some of the Act, which really is a denial of justice. He, like many things under discussion, and I think there is broad others, said that the Minister will take that point on agreement throughout the House that there is a risk board. I will return to what the Minister has said in a that some defamation actions could have that effect. moment. The costs regime has an impact on that. I then went on As many Members have said, it is a pity that what to say that not every defendant is a newspaper, and was promised is not in the Bill. My hon. Friend and certainly not a well-funded newspaper. That was the neighbour the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul substance of my point. Farrelly) referred to my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) being subject to a cross-party Robert Flello: I appreciate the Minister’s clarification, ambush. I suspect that after Monday night the Minister but I think that the newspapers will always claim that will have a lot of sympathy with what happened to my there are chilling effects. On balance, this will hit the right hon. Friend. My hon. Friend and neighbour said likes of the McCanns and the Dowlers—people whom that responsible journalists are made grubby by the we should really be making sure are not hit. scurrilous ones, and that we cannot have this licence to libel. In conclusion, I will push the new clause to a vote, because it is on a matter of principle. We need to send a The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old message that when a promise is made, we expect to see it Southwark (Simon Hughes) understands the problem, fulfilled. because he had a CFA for his claim against News International. If he was concerned about the financial Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. 333 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 334

The House divided: Ayes 198, Noes 273. Meale, Sir Alan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Division No. 64] [3.34 pm Mearns, Ian Sarwar, Anas Michael, rh Alun Seabeck, Alison Miliband, rh David Sharma, Mr Virendra AYES Miller, Andrew Sheerman, Mr Barry Abbott, Ms Diane Flello, Robert Mitchell, Austin Sheridan, Jim Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Flint, rh Caroline Moon, Mrs Madeleine Skinner, Mr Dennis Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Flynn, Paul Morden, Jessica Slaughter, Mr Andy Alexander, Heidi Fovargue, Yvonne Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, rh Mr Andrew Ali, Rushanara Francis, Dr Hywel Morris, Grahame M. Smith, Angela Allen, Mr Graham Gardiner, Barry (Easington) Smith, Owen Bailey, Mr Adrian Glass, Pat Mudie, Mr George Spellar, rh Mr John Bain, Mr William Glindon, Mrs Mary Munn, Meg Straw, rh Mr Jack Banks, Gordon Goodman, Helen Murray, Ian Stuart, Ms Gisela Barron, rh Mr Kevin Green, Kate Nandy, Lisa Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Beckett, rh Margaret Griffith, Nia Nash, Pamela Tami, Mark Begg, Dame Anne Gwynne, Andrew O’Donnell, Fiona Turner, Karl Benn, rh Hilary Hain, rh Mr Peter Onwurah, Chi Umunna, Mr Chuka Benton, Mr Joe Hamilton, Mr David Osborne, Sandra Vaz, rh Keith Betts, Mr Clive Hanson, rh Mr David Paisley, Ian Vaz, Valerie Blears, rh Hazel Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pearce, Teresa Walley, Joan Blenkinsop, Tom Harris, Mr Tom Phillipson, Bridget Watson, Mr Tom Blomfield, Paul Healey, rh John Pound, Stephen Watts, Mr Dave Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hendrick, Mark Qureshi, Yasmin Whitehead, Dr Alan Brennan, Kevin Hepburn, Mr Stephen Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Williams, Hywel Brown, Lyn Hermon, Lady Reeves, Rachel Williamson, Chris Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hillier, Meg Reynolds, Emma Winnick, Mr David Brown, Mr Russell Hilling, Julie Reynolds, Jonathan Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Burden, Richard Hodge, rh Margaret Riordan, Mrs Linda Wood, Mike Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hood, Mr Jim Ritchie, Ms Margaret Wright, David Campbell, Mr Alan Hopkins, Kelvin Robertson, John Wright, Mr Iain Campbell, Mr Ronnie Howarth, rh Mr George Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Caton, Martin Hunt, Tristram Roy, Mr Frank Tellers for the Ayes: Clarke, rh Mr Tom Irranca-Davies, Huw Roy, Lindsay Phil Wilson and Clwyd, rh Ann Jackson, Glenda Ruane, Chris Jonathan Ashworth Coaker, Vernon Jamieson, Cathy Coffey, Ann Jarvis, Dan NOES Crausby, Mr David Johnson, rh Alan Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Adams, Nigel Burrowes, Mr David Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Afriyie, Adam Burstow, rh Paul Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Aldous, Peter Burt, Lorely Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Andrew, Stuart Byles, Dan Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Bacon, Mr Richard Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Cunningham, Sir Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Baker, Steve Carmichael, Neil Curran, Margaret Keeley, Barbara Baldry, Sir Tony Carswell, Mr Douglas Dakin, Nic Kendall, Liz Baldwin, Harriett Cash, Mr William Danczuk, Simon Khan, rh Sadiq Barclay, Stephen Clark, rh Greg Darling, rh Mr Alistair Lammy, rh Mr David Baron, Mr John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey David, Wayne Lavery, Ian Barwell, Gavin Coffey, Dr Thérèse Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Bebb, Guto Collins, Damian Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan Beith, rh Sir Alan Crabb, Stephen De Piero, Gloria Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Beresford, Sir Paul Crouch, Tracey Denham, rh Mr John Long, Naomi Bingham, Andrew Davey, rh Mr Edward Dobbin, Jim Lucas, Ian Binley, Mr Brian Davies, Glyn Dobson, rh Frank MacShane, rh Mr Denis Blackwood, Nicola Davies, Philip Docherty, Thomas Mactaggart, Fiona Blunt, Mr Crispin de Bois, Nick Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Malhotra, Seema Boles, Nick Dinenage, Caroline Doran, Mr Frank Mann, John Bone, Mr Peter Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Dowd, Jim Marsden, Mr Gordon Bottomley, Sir Peter Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Doyle, Gemma McCann, Mr Michael Brady, Mr Graham Dorries, Nadine Dromey, Jack McCarthy, Kerry Brake, rh Tom Doyle-Price, Jackie Durkan, Mark McClymont, Gregg Bray, Angie Duddridge, James Eagle, Ms Angela McDonagh, Siobhain Brazier, Mr Julian Duncan, rh Mr Alan Edwards, Jonathan McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Brine, Steve Dunne, Mr Philip Efford, Clive McDonnell, John Brokenshire, James Ellis, Michael Ellman, Mrs Louise McFadden, rh Mr Pat Brooke, Annette Ellison, Jane Esterson, Bill McGovern, Jim Bruce, Fiona Ellwood, Mr Tobias Evans, Chris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Elphicke, Charlie Farrelly, Paul McKechin, Ann Buckland, Mr Robert Eustice, George Field, rh Mr Frank McKenzie, Mr Iain Burley, Mr Aidan Evans, Graham Fitzpatrick, Jim McKinnell, Catherine Burns, rh Mr Simon Evans, Jonathan 335 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 336

Evennett, Mr David Lamb, Norman Ruffley, Mr David Tredinnick, David Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Russell, Sir Bob Truss, Elizabeth Fallon, rh Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rutley, David Turner, Mr Andrew Featherstone, Lynne Latham, Pauline Sandys, Laura Tyrie, Mr Andrew Field, Mark Laws, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Uppal, Paul Foster, rh Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Selous, Andrew Vaizey, Mr Edward Fox,rhDrLiam Lee, Dr Phillip Shapps, rh Grant Vara, Mr Shailesh Francois, rh Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Sharma, Alok Vickers, Martin Freeman, George Leslie, Charlotte Shelbrooke, Alec Walker, Mr Robin Freer, Mike Lewis, Brandon Shepherd, Mr Richard Walter, Mr Robert Fullbrook, Lorraine Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Simmonds, Mark Ward, Mr David Fuller, Richard Lidington, rh Mr David Skidmore, Chris Watkinson, Angela Gale, Sir Roger Lilley, rh Mr Peter Smith, Miss Chloe Weatherley, Mike Garnier, Mr Edward Lloyd, Stephen Smith, Henry Webb, Steve Garnier, Mark Lopresti, Jack Smith, Julian Wheeler, Heather Gauke, Mr David Lucas, Caroline Smith, Sir Robert White, Chris George, Andrew Luff, Peter Soames, rh Nicholas Whittaker, Craig Gibb, Mr Nick Lumley, Karen Soubry, Anna Wiggin, Bill Gilbert, Stephen Macleod, Mary Spencer, Mr Mark Willetts, rh Mr David Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Main, Mrs Anne Stanley, rh Sir John Williams, Mr Mark Glen, John Maude, rh Mr Francis Stevenson, John Williams, Roger Goodwill, Mr Robert Maynard, Paul Stewart, Bob Williams, Stephen Gove, rh Michael McCartney, Jason Stewart, Iain Williamson, Gavin Graham, Richard McCartney, Karl Stride, Mel Willott, Jenny Grant, Mrs Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Stuart, Mr Graham Wilson, Mr Rob Gray, Mr James McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stunell, rh Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah Grayling, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Wright, Jeremy Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Wright, Simon Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Metcalfe, Stephen Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Young, rh Sir George Griffiths, Andrew Mills, Nigel Thurso, John Tellers for the Noes: Gummer, Ben Milton, Anne Timpson, Mr Edward Mr Robert Syms and Gyimah, Mr Sam Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Karen Bradley Halfon, Robert Mordaunt, Penny Hames, Duncan Morgan, Nicky Hammond, Stephen Morris, Anne Marie Question accordingly negatived. Hancock, Matthew Morris, David Hands, Greg Morris, James Harper, Mr Mark Mosley, Stephen New Clause 4 Harrington, Richard Mowat, David Harris, Rebecca Mulholland, Greg PUBLICATION ON MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST Hart, Simon Munt, Tessa ‘(1) The publication of a statement which is, or forms part of, Hayes, Mr John Neill, Robert a statement on a matter of public interest is privileged unless the Heald, Oliver Newmark, Mr Brooks publication is shown to be made with malice. Hemming, John Norman, Jesse (2) Subsection (1) shall not apply if the claimant shows that Henderson, Gordon Nuttall, Mr David the defendant— Hendry, Charles Offord, Dr Matthew (a) was requested by him to publish, in a suitable manner, Hinds, Damian Ollerenshaw, Eric either or both Hoban, Mr Mark Opperman, Guy (i) a reasonable letter or statement by way of explanation Hollobone, Mr Philip Ottaway, Richard or contradiction (a “response”), and Hopkins, Kris Paice, rh Mr James (ii) where appropriate, a correction or clarification; and Horwood, Martin Parish, Neil Howarth, Mr Gerald Patel, Priti (b) refused or otherwise failed to do so. Howell, John Pawsey, Mark (c) For the purpose of subsection 2(a), “in a suitable Huhne, rh Chris Penrose, John manner” means in the same manner as the publication Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Percy, Andrew complained of or in a manner that is adequate and Hunter, Mark Phillips, Stephen reasonable in the circumstances. Huppert, Dr Julian Pickles, rh Mr Eric (d) In determining what is “adequate and reasonable” for Jackson, Mr Stewart Pincher, Christopher the purposes of subsection (3)(a) particular regard James, Margot Poulter, Dr Daniel shall be had to— Javid, Sajid Prisk, Mr Mark (i) the need for a response to have equal prominence as Jenkin, Mr Bernard Pugh, John the statement complained of; Johnson, Gareth Raab, Mr Dominic (ii) the promptness of the publication of a response; Johnson, Joseph Randall, rh Mr John (iii) the extent, prominence and promptness of the Jones, Andrew Reckless, Mark publication of a correction or clarification. Jones, rh Mr David Redwood, rh Mr John (3) In determining whether, for the purposes of subsection (2)(a)(ii), Jones, Mr Marcus Rees-Mogg, Jacob a correction or clarification is “appropriate” regard shall be had Kawczynski, Daniel Reid, Mr Alan to— Kelly, Chris Robathan, rh Mr Andrew (a) whether a correction or clarification is required to Kirby, Simon Robertson, rh Hugh extinguish any defamatory imputation of the statement Knight, rh Mr Greg Robertson, Mr Laurence complained of, and Kwarteng, Kwasi Rogerson, Dan (b) whether the author, editor or publisher knew, or ought Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rudd, Amber to have known, that the defamatory imputation (or, 337 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 338

in the case of a statement of an opinion containing a they were in the public interest. In that way, the debate defamatory imputation, the fact on which the opinion starts to take over everything that people want to justify. was based) was false by the time the complaint was However, in the light of the Prime Minister’s statement received or upon receipt of the complaint. earlier and the comments across the House, I hope that (4) For the purposes of subsection (1) malice shall be taken to The Sun understands today what is in the public interest mean— and that that appears on the front page of tomorrow (a) the absence of an honest belief in the truth of the morning’s paper by way of an apology to the supporters statement complained of, or an opinion expressed of Liverpool who were killed or injured at Hillsborough therein, 23 years ago. (b) reckless disregard to the truth or falsity of the statement complained of, or I want to introduce the debate by tracing where we (c) the existence of a dominant improper motive for the have got to in terms of legislation. My new clause 4 publication of the statement complained of. suggests an additional way of dealing with public interest (5) Nothing in this section shall be construed as— matters, which I hope will commend itself to the House. (a) protecting the publication of a matter the publication I have had the benefit of a brief word with the new of which is prohibited by law, or Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State for (b) limiting any privilege subsisting apart from this Justice, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald section.’.—(Simon Hughes.) (Mrs Grant), who will be responding to this debate, Brought up, and read the First time. both of whom we welcome to their posts. It is not my intention to divide the House on my new clause today; 3.45 pm we just need to flag up where the issues are. Also, given that the time we have been given since the Bill was in Simon Hughes: I beg to move, That the clause be read Committee has been foreshortened, I accept that the a Second time. issue will need more consideration. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it Until recently, the question of what was in the public will be convenient to discuss the following: interest was dealt with by the common law, as opposed to by statute. I can do no better than to quote a short Amendment 9, page 2, line 40, in clause 4, leave out excerpt from the excellent Library note on the Defamation from ‘statement’ to end of line 41 and insert— Bill—research paper 12/30, published on 28 May—to ‘the court must have regard to all the circumstances of the case explain what the position was then. The case of Reynolds and those circumstances may include (among other things)—’. v. Times Newspapers in 2007 established what has Amendment 1, page 3, line 5, after ‘it’, insert— become known as the “Reynolds privilege”, which is a ‘or within or a reasonable amount of time following initial common-law defence that a publication is acceptable publication’. and therefore cannot be the subject of a successful libel Amendment 10, page 3, line 7, leave out paragraph (g). action because it is in the public interest. That defence is Amendment 2, page 3, line 8, at end insert— of particular importance to the press and broadcasters, although it is available to anybody, publishing in any ‘within a reasonable amount of time, allowing for the public and commercial interest in publication.’. medium, who wishes to use it. There was then a further case in the House of Lords, called Jameel v. Wall Street Amendment 11, page 3, line 9, leave out from ‘the’ to Journal Europe Sprl. The commentary on those two end of line and insert— cases, which followed one another pretty speedily, by ‘urgency of the matter; or’. the authoritative book on the subject, “Carter-Ruck on Amendment 3, page 3, line 10, at end insert— Libel and Privacy”, said that, in the case of Jameel, (j) whether the defendant had made reasonable efforts to “the House of Lords sent a strong signal that the direction of abide by the National Union of Journalists’ Code of travel, post-Reynolds had not been sufficiently in favour of press Conduct.’. freedom,” Amendment 12, page 3, line 10, at end insert— and, as the Library paper sets out, highlighted: ‘() the extent of the defendant’s compliance with any relevant code of conduct or other relevant guidelines’. “Lord Hoffman’s comment that the non-exhaustive list of ten Amendment 4, page 3, line 21, at end insert— factors that had been set out in Reynolds to consider whether the journalism employed had been responsible had been taken by ‘(7) In determining public interest, the court shall have regard some judges as a set of hurdles to be overcome by a defendant.” to whether the claimant is a person in public life, which should be taken to include (amongst others) politicians, public officials, Before the Reynolds case, it seems that celebrities and others whose influence, earnings or social status is “it was clear that, although no generic privilege existed for fair dependent on a public image.’. publication in the press on a matter of public interest, there were some situations in which a qualified privilege would attach to Simon Hughes: This debate is about how we deal with publications to the general public,” what is or is not a matter of public interest—which, in itself, is increasingly becoming a matter of public interest. yet it was unclear quite how that would work. I had a few days off in August. I tried to escape the The Bill we are considering today was preceded by a British media by going to Spain—in particular, to watch draft Bill, which was considered by a Joint Committee Barcelona play Real Madrid in the first half of the of both Houses. It concluded on the subject: super cup, in that most fantastic of stadiums in Barcelona. “The Reynolds defence of responsible journalism in the public I did not succeed entirely in having five days free from interest should be replaced with a new statutory defence that the British media, because even the Spanish media were makes the law clearer, more accessible and better able to protect reporting that The Sun was publishing photographs of the free speech of publishers. The Bill must make it clear that the Prince Harry, defending its actions on the basis that existing common law defence will be repealed.” 339 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 340

Therefore, clause 4, which is entitled “Responsible a case called Flood, which had just been decided and publication on matter of public interest”, contains a was reported this year. The Government were asked proposal to replace the common law defence with a whether they appropriately took that case into account statutory defence. Subsection (6) states: as the latest interpretation of the Reynolds case. The “The common law defence known as the Reynolds defence is hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) abolished.” suggested that it did not look as though the Government had taken that case into account and therefore argued, Sir Peter Bottomley: The right hon. Gentleman might with the support of the Libel Reform Campaign, that prefer to leave this question to the Minister to answer. If there had not been enough flexibility in trying to catch that substitution becomes part of our law, does that up with the position the judges had arrived at. Secondly, mean that no other common law could be found by was that sufficient in any event anyway? The debate on judges that would allow a defence against a claim for the second point hinged around whether it should be defamation? for the claimant to prove that the publisher had acted irresponsibly and, therefore, what the balance of argument Simon Hughes: My understanding of the situation is should be. Should there be more of an onus on the that, once we expressly repeal the common law defence claimant or on the defendant? The hon. Member for and enact a statutory defence, that becomes the basis of Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly)—I join others in thanking all the decisions the courts will make subsequently. Of him for his collaboration and assistance when he was course, common law will build up as the new statute is the Under-Secretary—said that it would “unfairly tilt interpreted, but it will be an end to the old case law and the balance” against the defendant. At that stage, he we will start again with this legislation. Therefore, if we therefore resisted a change. He made it clear that the are taking the opportunity—I think we all want to take Government were seeking to bring the Bill to Parliament it—to bring to Parliament the way we define these to reflect case law as it had developed after the Reynolds things, it is important to try to get it right. That is why case and in the light of the Flood case. Ministers, I have proposed a new clause that would deal with some including the hon. Gentleman, were good in saying that of the issues, which I hope colleagues in the House they would consult further and hear further points. My believe are appropriate ones to have in the legislation. I right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and will return to that point in a moment. Wallington (Tom Brake) and I subsequently went to see The Government’s explanatory notes to the Bill state: Lord McNally, to put the case for a broader definition. “The factors listed at subsection (2) are not intended to operate as a checklist or set of hurdles”. 4pm Clause 4(2) provides a list—paragraphs (a) to (i)— setting out matters that are defined as follows: New clause 4 is designed to take as many cases as possible out of the courts. As we heard in the previous “in determining for the purposes of this section whether a debate on conditional fees, this is an area in which defendant acted responsibly in publishing a statement the matters to which the court may have regard include (amongst avoiding going to court is for the better. I also sense—it other matters)— is the mood I have picked up when I have heard these issues debated across this Chamber in questions or in (a) the nature of the publication and its context”. Committee—that when most of our constituents discover For example, is it a broadsheet newspaper with a something in the press that either libels or defames national circulation, a paper published by three people, them, what they want most of all is an immediate or or whatever? The list continues. The Joint Committee very speedy publication of an apology, a retraction or a had suggested: correction—bluntly, of the same size and in the same “When deciding whether publication was responsible, the place as where the original allegation was made. We can court should have regard to any reasonable editorial judgment of never undo an allegation that has been put out, but if a the publisher on the tone and timing of the publication.” tabloid newspaper puts something on its front page that That suggestion did not find support with the is blatantly wrong, malicious and unsupported by the Government, who responded: evidence, people will feel that at least there has been “We have considered the need for a specific provision of this some remedy if the next day or the next week, on the nature, but believe that this is unnecessary, as in practical terms in same page of the same paper, something appears to say, determining whether a publisher had acted responsibly in publishing “I’m sorry; we were wrong”. the statement complained of, the court would in reality be considering whether the publisher had exercised its editorial judgment responsibly. The gentleman arrested last year in Bristol on a There is also the need to ensure that the defence is clearly charge of murdering a young woman—it turned out to applicable in a wide range of circumstances beyond mainstream be a completely false trail—was willing to stand up and media cases, and focusing on editorial judgment in this way might argue his case in public, being fairly combative about it, cast doubt on that. Including a specific provision would therefore but that is not the case for all our constituents. Some are appear unnecessary and potentially confusing, and we consider not in a position to engage with the media, and would that the clause already provides protection for responsible editorial not wish to do so, in trying to correct the record. judgment as it stands.” New clause 4, with the support of the Libel Reform That is how the Bill came to the House and to the Campaign, is designed to achieve the following. First, it Committee, and the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, sets out to ensure that we assert press freedom, by my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The saying: Weald, who was a member of the Committee, and others then looked at those issues. I think that the “The publication of a statement which is, or forms part of, a debate hinged on two things. First, did the drafting of statement on a matter of public interest is privileged”— the statutory defence in fact take account of the law as so it would be allowed— it now is, because things had moved on? There had been “unless the publication is shown to be made with malice.” 341 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 342

I would argue that in addition to a provision such as the public a remedy—which they do not currently have, clause currently in the Bill, we need a further protection short of going to law—and ratchet up the probability for press freedom, but one that will be lost if an author that a public interest defence will be unsuccessful if the is malicious or shown to be malicious. Losing the defendant has been malicious. protection would follow from failing to publish the As the hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out, the definition apology that had been requested. That is provided for in of “malice” in the new clause is not my own handiwork. subsection (2): the publication or newspaper would lose Others have been working carefully to craft what they its defence if the claimant could show that the defendant consider to be the right second-tier definition. The aim “was requested by him to publish, in a suitable manner, either is to establish two tiers of consideration: there should or both…a reasonable letter or statement by way of explanation be a general public interest defence, but the situation or contradiction…and…where appropriate, a correction or clarification; and…refused or otherwise failed to do so.” should be deemed to have gone beyond that when a publisher has flown in the face of the facts or the There is a definition of “a suitable manner”, which evidence. That would not apply to the example given by means, in short, the hon. Gentleman, because if a newspaper could “adequate and reasonable in the circumstances.” honestly argue that the statement that it had published There is also a definition of what is “adequate and was ignorant and innocent and that there had been reasonable”, and the provision refers to every reason for believing that it was true, it would “equal prominence as the statement complained of;…the promptness obviously have a much more complicated public interest of the publication of a response;…the extent, prominence and defence case to argue. In the absence of my new clause, promptness of the publication of a correction or clarification.” it would then have to rely on something like the clause “Appropriate” is defined, too, and the provision refers that is currently in the Bill. to Let me make just two more substantive points. I am “whether a correction or clarification is required to extinguish keen for us to end up with legislation that will give any defamatory imputation” people a way out of the legal process when that is and possible. Who knows what the Leveson inquiry will “whether the author, editor or publisher knew, or ought to have produce? I sense that one of its main recommendations known, that the defamatory imputation”— will concern how we should deal with the public’s desire or, if it is an opinion— for inaccuracies to be corrected. I gave evidence before “the fact on which the opinion was based…was false by the time Lord Justice Leveson, as did others, and that was a the complaint was received or upon receipt of the complaint.” major subject of debate. We may have to legislate if Lastly, there is a definition of “malice”, namely Lord Justice Leveson proposes legislation, and I hope “the absence of an honest belief in the truth of the statement that that would happen in the Session that will begin complained of, or an opinion expressed”, next May. It is therefore possible that we will return to or this issue. “reckless disregard to the truth or falsity”, There is a debate about when the Leveson report will or be ready, but if it appears as early as October, it may “the existence of a dominant improper motive for the publication”. give us time to incorporate any proposals in this Bill. If If a newspaper went after a colleague, a councillor, a it does not produce its recommendations until December, council leader or a parliamentarian, or any individual, which now looks more likely, I sense we will have to with no evidential basis for its assertions, unless it come up with further legislation specifically to deal with owned up to its failure and offered redress in the form the Leveson recommendations. Although we may not of a published apology there would be a basis for a come up with a perfect solution in this Bill, however, malicious claim, and the public interest defence would both Government and Opposition parties have said not apply. they want to try to get this issue sorted now and get a better definition of public interest defence. Paul Farrelly: I am fully aware of the provenance of I want the House to agree to a measure that adds to the new clause and of the sterling work done by the the current clause 4, with a new defence available to Libel Reform Campaign, and I am very sympathetic to publishers who are prepared to correct the record or what the right hon. Gentleman is trying to achieve, but I publish a right-to-reply response promptly and prominently, want to ask him a question. Let us suppose that an thereby avoiding the use of lawyers. That answers the innocent mistake is made, which may not be apparent need in the internet age for a much speedier response— to the newspaper. When a complainant writes to the otherwise many readers are unlikely to see both the newspaper saying “I want an apology”, the newspaper original content and the later clarification. It offers gives the standard response, “We stand by our story: it newspapers and other publishers a way of being responsible is true and in the public interest.” I fear that in those after the publication of the initial story, too, because circumstances there will be no defence for responsible they can be shown to have corrected what they have journalism, because under the new clause it falls away. published. It will also serve not to permit the repetition of a defamatory allegation that has been promptly or Simon Hughes: I accept that, and I pay tribute to the prominently corrected or clarified. It would, therefore, hon. Gentleman’s work, which has been gleaned from take disputes out of the courts, thus saving people his experience in his previous life as a journalist. money, and it would speed up justice and make it more What we are trying to do between us is ensure that if publicly accessible. It would not apply if the author we are to replace the common-law defence with a were motivated by malice in its widest definition, which statutory defence, we not only deal with the general includes political or personal ill will or vendetta, rather proposition that if something is in the public interest, than just the old honest opinion defence. The information that should be a defence, but find ways of giving the must also be understandable to the public. 343 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 344

The Reynolds defence no longer works. Everybody Paul Farrelly: I seek your guidance, Mr Deputy Speaker, accepts that we must move on from that common-law as I was standing to move amendments 9, 10, 11 and 12. position for all sorts of reasons. We are in the age of Is that appropriate at this stage? the citizen-journalist, and we need to adapt the rules to accommodate that. We need something that will work for conventional newspaper groups and new media Mr Deputy Speaker: You can discuss those amendments organisations. The Reynolds defence has outlived its at this point. time. It will no longer be sufficient to have a checklist of tests in every court case. Perhaps we ought to debate Paul Farrelly: Thank you very much, Mr Deputy again whether to have early strike-out clauses in order Speaker. to get other kinds of cases out of the courts, too. We need a measure that sorts out at the beginning of Amendment 9 is the first of a series aimed at either proceedings, rather than the end, whether there is a improving or clarifying the Government’s thinking on public interest component. clause 4 regarding “responsible journalism”. Clearly, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The right hon. (Simon Hughes) has given the Government more food Gentleman referred to strike-out clauses. He is probably for thought, and he usefully clarified that his new clause aware of the case of my constituent Hardeep Singh, 4 would in no way be a replacement for clause 4 but that who was the subject of a lengthy and unfair—and it would be an additional safeguard. I want to say at the extremely expensive, for him—case centring on a matter outset that I welcome the Bill’s recognition that responsible of religious dispute. The judge eventually clearly ruled journalism should be protected, in the public interest. that the matter should not be dealt with by the courts. A However, during the passage of the Bill we want to similar doctrinal dispute could arise in future, so if make sure that what is codified is not a step back from there is not an early strike-out opportunity someone the current case law that has been largely welcomed, else could suffer as Mr Singh did. What can be done to and we also do not want to give a charter for sloppy, end this? frivolous, inaccurate or sometimes downright nasty journalism. Simon Hughes: I know about that particular case; indeed, it has become something of a cause célèbre. I The clause in effect codifies the defence of qualified support having an early strike-out provision. We had a privilege established in the judgments in the cases of long debate on the subject in Committee, which is why Reynolds v. Times Newspapers Ltd and then Jameel v. Mr Speaker did not select an amendment on it for Wall Street Journal Europe, as we have heard. One of debate on Report. I hope we can persuade the Government the concerns among serious journalists about the current that an appropriate public interest defence, plus a remedy state of the law, and therefore about the construction for resolving disputes along the lines I have suggested, of this clause, is that the list has the potential to be plus early strike-out is the right combination not just to interpreted by lower courts in particular as an inflexible address cases such as that of the hon. Lady’s constituent, tick-list: a set of hurdles, each and everyone of which but to prevent other kinds of unacceptable attack. I needs to be surmountable before the defence can be hope she will work with us. I am sure that she will. She deployed. also has relevant experience that I hope she can bring to In his landmark judgment in the Reynolds case in the debates after today. 1999, Lord Nicholls enumerated 10 different matters that a court could take into account in allowing a 4.15 pm defamatory article the protection of qualified privilege. My final point relates to the offer of amends defence. They are slightly different from the nine in paragraphs (a) As colleagues will be aware, that is exactly what it says it to (i) in subsection (2), but clause 4 seeks to capture is: someone can go to court to say, “Look, I have made their essence. Lord Nicholls made it clear from the start an offer to sort this out. Therefore, I am not guilty and I that his list was by no means exhaustive and was meant will be let off.” What I am arguing for is not the same as to be flexible, depending on the circumstances. He said: an offer of amends. That means an admission of liability and requires agreed damages—or leaves it for the court “The weight to be given to these and any other relevant factors to agree damages, with a discount if the offer has been will vary from case to case”. made, and costs and so on. That is a settlement mechanism, That important point was underlined in 2006 in the which is conventional in the court process, and it has very different case of Jameel v. Wall Street Journal been able to be a defence only if the claimant refused an Europe. The first case concerned an article in The offer in any case. I am arguing for something wider than Sunday Times regarding the former Irish Taoiseach that. I believe that what I suggest is compliant with Albert Reynolds, whereas the Jameel case concerned a human rights law and that it produces a route to get lots Wall Street Journal article in the aftermath of the of cases out of the courts. I hope that Ministers will add events of 9/11 saying that US law enforcement agencies it to their list of things in their inbox of proposals to and the Saudi Arabian central bank were monitoring consider; that is what I want the Minister to say today. I bank accounts associated with prominent Saudi look forward to the continuing debate. We have a few businessmen. The central question was what sort of more months to get this into good shape, but we need to reporting might be in the public interest, even when the do quite a bit more work before it will be in that imputations and the allegations carried might be untrue position. and defamatory. In the Jameel case, Lord Bingham of Cornhill set out very clearly how the Reynolds factors Several hon. Members rose— should be interpreted: Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call Paul “Lord Nicholls....intended these as pointers, which might be Farrelly. more or less indicative, depending on the circumstances of a 345 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 346

[Paul Farrelly] anything, subject to the other conditions, without taking any steps to verify the truth of something that is not particular case and not, I feel sure, as a series of hurdles to be under investigation? If the paragraph is removed from negotiated by a publisher before he could successfully rely on the Bill, it will amount to a charter for libel. qualified privilege.” That is indeed how the lower courts had interpreted the Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): The hon. list. In the Jameel case, the House of Lords was critical and learned Gentleman makes a fine point. The purpose of the High Court—in that instance, Mr Justice Eady—and of my amendment, which I shall not press to a Division, the Court of Appeal in denying qualified privilege on is to probe the Government’s thinking. Other suggestions one narrow ground taken from the list. for amendments were made in Committee and some of Indeed, because of the operation of the lower courts, those might reflect the judgments given in Reynolds newspapers and non-governmental organisations also more closely than paragraph (g). prepare for and approach Reynolds defences according Any decisions by lower courts can be appealed, but going to a tick list. That accounts for the complaints about all the way to the Supreme Court is very time-consuming how costly it is in practice to “run a Reynolds”. The and expensive. The purpose of my amendment 10 is likely bill would be calculated by totting up how much therefore to get the Government to clarify what they it would cost to satisfy the court that each of the mean by paragraph (g) and whether they have fully 10 factors had been satisfied. taken into account the most up-to-date case law, and to In Committee, the Government said that the wording give them the opportunity to state to the House that in the preamble to sub-section (2) of clause (4) already there is no intention that the clause should be at odds in made it quite clear that the list was not exhaustive. The any way with how the “responsible journalism” defence purpose of amendment 9 is to make it even clearer that has been developed by the courts over the years. a court should take all circumstances into account. I Amendment 11, which relates to sub-section (2)(h), admit that the wording is essentially not mine, but is simply reflects the actual wording used by Lord Nicholls taken from the noble Lord Lester’s Defamation Bill, a in his list in the Reynolds case, in which the court private Member’s Bill that gave much impetus to the considered whether a newspaper might reasonably have Bill that we are now considering. delayed publication—for instance, to wait longer for a Amendment 10 is aimed at probing, as we did in comment from the subject of an article—rather than Committee, whether or not clause 4 is a step back from going to press when it did. The concern in the legal the case law as it has developed. The right hon. Member profession about the current wording of sub-section (2)(h) for Bermondsey and Old Southwark mentioned the is that it is neutral and does not capture the essence of case of Flood v. Times Newspapers, which came up in the urge, or the urgency, to publish. It is a concern for Committee. For the uninitiated, that concerned the case weekly, fortnightly or monthly publications, for example, of a policeman, Detective Sergeant Gary Flood, who that withholding a comment can be used to try to was being investigated internally by the Metropolitan ensure that a story does not appear in a particular Police over alleged corruption by wealthy Russians but edition. I shall pray the noble Lord Lester in aid again. who was later cleared. The central question for the case Urgency appears explicitly in his list of factors that the was whether it was in the public interest for the fact of courts may take into account. In his private Member’s an investigation to be reported, with the officer’s name, Bill, he proposed that they may consider even though the allegations were plainly defamatory “whether there were any factors supporting urgent publication”. and he was eventually cleared. Amendment 12 is lifted word for word from Lord The Supreme Court found this year that in the Lester. It is intentionally broader than amendment 3, circumstances of that case, the newspaper group could which my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and rely on qualified privilege. The case is very recent, Harlington (John McDonnell) will speak to shortly. It coming just weeks before publication of the Bill, and I also seeks to address a concern that was not addressed mention it in relation to the amendment because there in Committee. Following the phone-hacking affair and is concern among serious journalists and defamation the failure, yet again, by certain aggressive tabloids to lawyers that the clause as drafted is a step back from put their own house in order, there is now a crisis of Flood. Indeed, the case is not even mentioned in the confidence in the press in this country.The Press Complaints explanatory notes. Commission palpably failed over phone hacking, and in The concerns crystallise around the drafting of cases such as that of the McCanns. It is broken, and the clause 4(2)(g) and the question of whether courts will “son of PCC” advanced by the industry to replace it require newspapers in every case to investigate and looks all too much like the PCC itself. The mantra in prove the truth of allegations that are subject to the industry often seems to have been never to let the investigation—for example, by the police, as they were editors’ code of practice get in the way of a good story in the Flood case. As drafted, paragraph (g) appears to or good business. I am sure that, when Lord Justice go beyond Reynolds, where one of Nicholls’ factors or Leveson reports next month, he will make similar damning tests is to “verify the information”, which is a very judgments about the practices of the press, or certain different thing to verifying the truth of the allegations. parts of it. That is where the concerns about paragraph (g) lie. The amendment seeks to give statutory recognition, if that is the right word, when newspapers are seeking to Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): rely on qualified privilege, to the importance of journalists I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about the following a relevant code of practice—be it their own reporting of investigations, but is not one of the problems publication’s code, the editors’ code, one from a regulator with the potential removal of paragraph (g) the fact or that of the profession. It also seeks to bolster the that it essentially enables journalists to print almost position of journalists. They are frequently asked by 347 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 348 editors to do things that breach those codes: “Leave John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): It is your morals at home or you’ll be colouring in the black entertaining to be following the hon. and learned Member squares on the crossword before we sack you” can instil for Harborough (Mr Garnier), not least because he was genuine fear in many parts of the industry. Only editors a junior in a libel action that was taken against me some and proprietors have been consulted on the proposals years ago, which almost cost me my home. I think that for the reform of the PCC; journalists have not. I it was one of the cases when Carter-Ruck was roving believe that in striving for better quality journalism, we wildly. should give good codes of practice more weight. The amendment seeks to do that. Mr Garnier: You did libel somebody.

Mr Garnier: I listened with the greatest possible care John McDonnell: Let us not go into it now; we can to what the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and discuss it another time. Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) said in moving his new clause, but I confess that I was either unconvinced or I am the secretary of the parliamentary group of the did not entirely understand the thrust of his argument. National Union of Journalists, which obviously has I am sure that that is entirely my fault. I also listened taken an interest in the Bill. The right hon. Member for with care to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) said (Paul Farrelly), and I found him a little easier to follow. that this is something of a dress rehearsal for what Both those contributions have persuaded me, however, comes out of Leveson and, as my hon. Friend the that the amendments are not helpful to the wider debate. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) said, They have further persuaded me that, if we are to there is real concern about the Bill’s practical implications legislate, clause 4 is the way to do it. and what might arise from Leveson. Clause 4(2) proposes that, when determining whether It is clear, as hon. Members have said, that good a publisher has acted responsibly, the court may have journalism is essential for a healthy democracy and that regard to a list of factors, “amongst other matters”. investigative journalism plays a vital role. As the right The phrase “amongst other matters” reminds us of the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark words of Lord Nicholls in the case of Reynolds. His list said, we have heard today about the worst journalism, of factors was non-exhaustive. In an ideal world, however, in the form of the performance of The Sun on Hillsborough, legislation is not the right way to go about this. The but there are examples from recent years of the best proposals in clause 4 are better to be found in the journalism, such as the exposure of corruption in the common law and in the development of case law. I House with MPs’ expenses and of ministerial relationships. appreciate that if courts are to develop the common For me and the NUJ, it is critical that the Bill does law, that leads to a need for litigants to litigate, but such nothing to undermine the vital role of good journalism an approach provides necessary flexibility. By setting in and the contribution that it makes to our society. Of stone clause 4, or another version of it, we will face the course, it is also important to ensure that journalists problem that it might not always be fit to deal with uphold decent standards of behaviour, so we must get future circumstances. We are probably unwise to be the balance right, and I have tabled amendments to deal doing that, albeit not so unwise that I would suggest with the Bill’s practical implications on the basis of the removing clause 4 from the Bill. I do not think that we way in which journalism operates and the pressures and should have started from where we are, but I did not pace of journalistic practice. draft the Bill, and in so far as I had any influence on the Although I welcome the context of clause 4 and the people who did so, they sensibly ignored my opinion. range of factors of which a court must take account when reaching a decision about the protections of privilege, 4.30 pm the measure raises questions about practice on the ground. Subsection (2)(f) deals with the court taking Sir Peter Bottomley: Clause 4(6) states: account of “The common law defence known as the Reynolds defence is “whether the defendant sought the claimant’s views on the statement abolished.” before publishing it and whether an account of any views the My hon. and learned Friend rightly reminds us that the claimant expressed was published with the statement”. judge in that case made the statement about “amongst Amendment 1 inserts a reasonableness test with the other matters”. Does he interpret subsection (6) as words meaning that no other matter may be brought up by any judge, and that we are left only with what will be the “within…a reasonable amount of time following initial publication”. statutory law? The aim is to broaden the potential for journalists to claim the defence of having contacted the claimant Mr Garnier: Yes and no. Subsection (2) includes the within a reasonable time frame, not necessarily before phrase “amongst other matters”, so it puts what Lord publication. Nicholls said in the Reynolds case into statutory form. I We all agree that it is good practice for a journalist to think that it is more sensible to leave this in the form of contact the claimant before publication, but that is not developing common law, but if we are to set something always possible for a variety of reasons, some of which in stone, clause 4 is better than the somewhat confusing relate to the way in which the courts have been used—the provision tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member threat of a lawsuit or the triggering of an injunction or for Bermondsey and Old Southwark. a super-injunction, and, in some cases, the threat of Bad points are never improved by repetition, but it is physical force. Often injunctions are sought by the rich a pity that we are doing away with the common law. and powerful, who are keen to prevent the publication Although I have lost that battle, I might as well wear my of a detrimental story, or to delay its publication until black in mourning at its passing. they have had time either to hide the damaging evidence, 349 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 350

[John McDonnell] employment legislation. We wanted the code of conduct to be written into employment law, so that journalists or develop an appropriate public relations strategy to would have protection against wrongful dismissal if limit the damage. I believe that it should be a defence they were seeking to abide by the code and refused that the claimant’s views were published either concurrently to write a story that broke it or went against it. This with or within a reasonable time after initial publication, measure is another way of introducing the code in as existing journalistic codes already demand. legislation, which we should use to uplift the standards Amendment 2 is designed to acknowledge the fact of journalism and give people protection. that that, yes, journalists should take all reasonable Finally and more contentiously, I wish to add to steps to check the accuracy of facts, but to recognise clause4afurthercategoryforconsideration.Amendment 4 also the pressures of a news environment. While rushing states: to print is no excuse for poor journalism, journalism is “In determining public interest, the court shall have regard to part of a commercial operation and getting the story whether the claimant is someone in public life, which should be first is often crucial for a newspaper or broadcaster’s taken to include (amongst others) politicians, public officials, commercial viability. celebrities and others whose influence, earnings or social status is dependent on a public image”. Mr MacShane: Many years ago, early in my trade I introduce that provision with some trepidation, because union life, the Daily Mail made up quotes, attributed to it is a red light for any journalist who wants to trawl me, regarding a BBC meeting on a strike issue. When I through my private life to demonstrate how someone remonstrated with him, the journalist said, “Oh, come could be defended on that basis. I do not have any on Denis, it’s the kind of thing you’d have said anyway.” criminal convictions—I have spent a few nights in the It was, but that missed the point, which was that I had cells as a result of demonstrations and so on—and I not used those words. I am worried that a future judge, have no bizarre sexual proclivities that I am aware of, reading my hon. Friend’s speech as he tries to work out although I have noticed my wife and her friends reading how to interpret the clause, will think that it is quite all “Fifty Shades of Grey”, so I shall keep Members updated right to wait until after a story is published to seek a on that one. quote. Paul Dacre would thoroughly approve. The whole point of the provision is to recognise that there are two different categories of people. Civilians do John McDonnell: I would say that falls on the basis of not rely on their public reputation for their earnings clear malice on the part of the journalist. and do not parade their standing or use their public image to that effect. Journalism has a role in exposing The point of the amendment is to recognise the the wrongdoings or antisocial behaviour of individuals commercial environment in which journalists work. To in public life. It has been an essential part of our have a scoop, it is important to get out there and democracy for centuries in enabling us to judge whether publish a story.Of course, if there are errors or inaccuracies, someone is suitable for public office. That applies too to there is the opportunity at a later date to publish the those celebrities who earn a living from their celebrity appropriate corrections. Often, public interest news stories status and exert some influence in our society. There is are perishable, lasting only a limited period. It is important case law on this, including a recent case involving Steve to get a story out there while it can influence the public McClaren, in which Justice Lindblom said that it was debate. clearly in the public interest to expose a story about Amendment 3 follows on from the points made by someone whom he described as “undoubtedly a public my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme figure”. about codes of conduct. Under the amendment, the In America, there is a public figure defence, which courts, when considering matters of privilege, would establishes some form of privilege. That means that have to have take into account whether the defendant someone in public office would have to prove either a had abided, or tried to abide, by the standard code of reckless disregard for the truth or malice when damaging practice, which was introduced by the National Union information is published. Refusing to print corrections of Journalists and developed from the 1930s onward. or clarifications, for example, would constitute evidence That code of conduct includes a requirement that the of reckless disregard. My proposal recognises what the journalist public appear to appreciate, even if others do not do so: “Strives to ensure that information disseminated is honestly those who enter into public life should be open to conveyed, accurate and fair…. Does her/his utmost to correct public scrutiny. As long as that scrutiny is honest and harmful inaccuracies” produces evidence that can be substantiated, they have and to take the rough with the smooth. On that basis, we “Differentiates between fact and opinion.” can maintain both the standards of journalism, by making sure that journalists report accurately and fairly, The NUJ says that within the code of conduct as well as the role of journalism in exposing falsehoods, “material for stories should be obtained by honest, straightforward lies and corruption. and open means”. I shall not press my amendments to a Division. Only exceptionally in the public interest should any Overall, they seek to put into context the reality of other means necessarily be used to obtain a story. journalistic practice. We live in a fast-flowing, 24-hour We all know from the evidence provided to Leveson multi-media world. There are limited staff resources, the pressures that are applied to journalists. Michelle and journalism is highly competitive, with immense Stanistreet, the general secretary of the National Union pressures just to survive. Journalists need protection of Journalists, presented evidence collected from journalists just as much as other individuals if they are to perform about the pressures put on them to fail to abide by that their role in society and if we are to value them as the code of conduct, which is one reason we tried to amend foundations of our democratic society. 351 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 352

4.45 pm account. If the new clause is accepted in another place, I hope it will encompass what a respondent has decided Sir Peter Bottomley: I welcome this debate. I understand to do off their own bat. that new clause 4 is not going to be pressed to a Division, so I do not need to declare my intentions on To give a small example, the last time I noticed that I that. was being seriously defamed was when a Sunday newspaper said, in effect, that I was far too close to the IRA. As it Those associating themselves with the new clause happened, the IRA paid rather too much attention to include Sense about Science, Which?, Citizens Advice, me in my ministerial jobs, but that is a side issue. I rang Mumsnet, Nature, the British Medical Journal, the the editor and said, “What you’ve said is wrong and Association of British Science Writers, Global Witness, very damaging. What did you mean to say?” He said, the Society of Authors and the Publishers Association, “That we disagree with House of Lords on its decision and I am sure that many others would do so. If they on Private Lee Clegg”—who had shot somebody—“and believe that Parliament should pay attention to what is we disagree with you appearing at a meeting next Thursday in the new clause, I agree with them, and I hope that at the Quaker meeting house on Euston road with a there will be serious discussion about it in another place senior Sinn Fein person.” I said, “If you put out a and before the Bill gets there. statement to the Press Association by lunchtime saying I want to draw the House’s attention to a case whose that that’s what you had in mind—if you want to offer decision was reported on 6 July this year by Mrs Justice me a new lawnmower I would be grateful, but the key Sharp. The case was brought by Mohamed El Naschie thing is to get out a statement today—I won’t take this against Macmillan Publishing, the publishers of Nature, further. If you don’t, tomorrow—Monday—we will and against the journalist Quirin Schiermeier. In essence, issue a writ and serve it.” That led to a week and a half Mrs Justice Sharp decided that what was written was in the High Court, where George Carman lost a case for honest, that it was fair opinion, and that it had justification. his client. I was not his client. It was about comments made on the retirement of the We should be putting pressure on claimants to stay editor of a journal called Chaos, Solitons & Fractals. out of court and find a way for courts to throw claims Most of us know what chaos and fractals are. Solitons out. The case involving Nature magazine and its comments were, I think, first described in 1834 by someone who on the retirement of the editor of Chaos, Solitons and had observed a wave go through a canal; they relate to Fractals is the kind of case that even a clerk at the court how a wave can be self-perpetuating if it goes at a should have said it would not accept. The first time the constant speed. The journal, published by Elsevier, was judge read the papers, they should have said to the regarded as a joke and described as such on mathematical claimant, “Sit down and tell me exactly why you think websites. In theory, it was peer reviewed. The degree of this needs action in court.” seriousness of the peer review is described well in the judgment. In June 2011, Mr Justice Eady made various Paul Farrelly: I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention decisions and struck out some parts of the claim. It to new clause 5, which was tabled by the right hon. took until July 2012 for the case to be disposed of. The Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon article was pretty mild, and the problem is that clause 4 Hughes) but was not selected for debate because it was or new clause 4 would not do enough to stop that kind essentially the same as a new clause on early strike-outs of action being taken. that my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Let me return to clause 1, which needs a bit of South (Robert Flello) tabled in Committee. That new attention between now and when it reaches the Lords. It clause lost a Committee vote by nine votes to seven, says, under the heading, “Requirement of serious harm”: with Conservative members voting against it and Liberal “A statement is not defamatory unless its publication has Democrats abstaining. I urge the hon. Member for caused or is likely to cause serious harm to the reputation of the Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) to ask the Government claimant.” to consider that new clause again when the Bill goes to the other place. That is not the best way of putting it. I would say that a defamatory statement is not actionable unless its publication Sir Peter Bottomley: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman has caused or is likely to cause serious harm to the for his intervention and will end my remarks on this reputation of the claimant. If something is said not to point. It is important that a case does not fall only when be defamatory when clearly it is defamatory, that is it gets to a hearing. At an early stage, a judge should worth giving some attention to. I was brought up with have the responsibility and the opportunity to ask what the idea that a defamatory statement could be actionable it is about. If a claimant will not take the advice of a only if it fulfilled three criteria: first, that it was not judge, the judge should have the opportunity to refer true—I can think of various defamatory things that the case to a small claims court. Once that happens, the could be said about me that are true; secondly, that it small claims court should be able to order a limit on the should be damaging, and I agree that it should be costs that can be claimed at the end of a case, with or seriously damaging before it is actionable in court; and without a conditional fee agreement or qualified costs thirdly, that it should not be privileged. We might have shifting. We need to cap these things and have a way of returned to the question of what is privileged had there laughing people out of court even before they can get a been other amendments. full hearing. New clause 4 relates to what the person who has published the defamatory statement has done after Robert Flello: Clause 4 is an important, central part publication—whether they have, at the request of the of the Bill, but some commentators believe that, as person who has made the claim, provided an explanation, drafted, it does not represent an effective public interest an apology or a clarification, or whether they have done defence. Others, as we have heard, believe that it should that without being asked. That should be taken into either be amended or improved by new clause 4. 353 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 354

[Robert Flello] list was meant to be flexible, but that this had led to a catalogue of problems. I welcome his attempt to tidy up Members will notice that my copy of the Joint clause 4 while seeking to probe the Government’s thinking. Committee’s report is well-thumbed, and I draw their It is important that the Minister gives us the reassurance attention to what it has to say about the matter. I am and advice we seek. sure that the Minister has already read it, but it would My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington be worth her while to look again at what it says about outlined the NUJ’s understandable interest. It will have what was clause 2, on responsible publication. It is concerns that good journalism will suffer because of the important and relates to some of this afternoon’s behaviour of bad journalists and the unfair pressure amendments and comments. It will also elaborate on placed on good journalists by editors and owners not as the Bill and inform views as the Bill makes its way concerned about good journalistic standards as they are through Parliament. about profits and getting the sensational headlines to Today’s has been a good debate, as was the one in generate them. I see where he is going with his amendments, Committee, and I begin with a few observations on new and I understand the positive intentions behind them. I clause 4. It was tabled by the right hon. Member for suspect that much of clause 4 will need to be revisited Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) but following the conclusion of Lord Leveson’s work. It is bears an uncanny resemblance to the new clause that I almost a great pity that the Bill has proceeded so tabled in Committee. quickly through the House. If it had been delayed, perhaps by a few months, we could have incorporated Simon Hughes: Same parents. conclusions and findings from the Leveson inquiry and the inquiry into privilege. It should all be looked at as a Robert Flello: Indeed. As I was about to say, because package, rather than taking defamation as a stand-alone we both know their provenance, we understand the issue. This is an important subject and the law has not reasons for that uncanny resemblance, so it would be been amended since 1996. All the party manifestos hard for me not to support new clause 4, especially wanted the law amended, but the undue haste of trying given that my new clause was withdrawn with the to get the Bill through Parliament—specifically clause 4 specific intention of fighting it another day. —means that the amended Bill with its additional new You will be reassured, Madam Deputy Speaker, to clauses does not currently pass the test of good and know that I have no intention of rehearsing our discussion effective potential legislation. In the spirit of trying to of clause 4. Instead, I invite the House to read in get a good result, I look forward to what the Minister Hansard what was said. However, I was dissatisfied with has to say. the previous Minister’s assurances on the predecessor to new clause 4, and was not reassured that it encompassed 5pm Reynolds, as revised by Flood and Jameel. I hope, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice therefore, that the other place can pin down the Minister (Mrs Helen Grant): I thank hon. Members on both on this matter and get some better legislation out of sides of the House for the kind and generous sentiments this. that have been directed towards me and the Under-Secretary As I understood the observations of the right hon. of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Gentleman, new clause 4 is intended as an addition to Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright). My fellow the statutory version of Reynolds. The existing clause 4 new Minister has been sitting beside me for most of the defence would be available to publishers with deep afternoon, but he has just left his place. It is a great enough pockets who did not wish to publish a clarification, honour and privilege to stand at the Dispatch Box. contradiction or, where relevant, a correction. The new New clause 4 and other amendments in the group clause 4 defence would be available to publishers prepared relate to the defence of responsible publication in the to correct the record promptly and, if needs be, prominently, public interest, as set out in clause 4. The new clause and to publish a right of reply promptly and prominently, represents a significant shift in the law towards the avoiding the use of lawyers. interests of defendants. To obtain any remedy beyond As Members on both sides of the House have said, in explanation, contradiction or correction, the claimant the internet age, a prompt and prominent clarification, would have to prove malice—a high test that would contradiction or correction can be an adequate remedy require the claimant to prove the defendant’s state of for non-malicious public interest publication, particularly mind, which in many cases is likely to be impossible. It given that some readers might see an original posting could lead, effectively, to people printing what they but not a subsequent one. So publishing a correction liked and arguing it was a matter of public interest. straight away online is often a good way of doing In his very good speech, my right hon. Friend the it—perhaps we could call it a post-publication responsible Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon publication. The Opposition are concerned that we end Hughes) mentioned the Flood case, but that does not up with a clause 4 that does the job. As I said, I support change the core element of the defence of responsible the direction of travel in new clause 4, and look forward publication. From my experience, courts will continue to hearing the Minister’s comments. I hope to hear to interpret editorial discretion, and I therefore think something new, not what we heard in Committee, and that the Flood case is reflected in the Bill. My right hon. something from which we can take reassurance. Friend also mentioned an early strike-out, and again On the amendments tabled by my hon. Friends the my initial response is that courts already have that Members for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul Farrelly) and power under rule 3.4 of the civil procedure rules, which for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), my I have witnessed on numerous occasions. Indeed, such constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member action has been threatened against me, and it can be for Newcastle-under-Lyme, pointed out that the Reynolds quite intimidating. 355 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 356

The hon. Members for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Paul where we want to go, but that is another debate. The Farrelly) and for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) bulk of my constituents and the hon. Gentleman’s are were concerned—among other things—about the not in a position readily to go to court to defend their narrowness of the list of factors for consideration. The interests, and nor could they get an adequate remedy. list in the Bill has been drawn flexibly. It is illustrative The new clause therefore seeks to find a remedy outside and not exhaustive, and in any event the court must the courts. have regard to all the circumstances of the case. I hear what my hon. Friend the new Minister says I will not comment on all the points raised today, but about the level of evidence needed to establish malice, I recognise the wide range of opinions about clause 4 and therefore understand that we need to have a debate and the issues underlying them. This is a complex area on that. However, I am encouraged by the fact that she about which there are well-argued and deeply held and her colleagues are willing to draw breath, as it were, views on both sides of the House. The Ministry of and to look at the arguments as they have been presented Justice has a largely new ministerial team, but we are and at the unanswered questions that both current and determined to get the legislation right and would therefore previous Ministers have said they will address. like to reflect further in light of the helpful points that There is one last thing to say before asking the House have been raised by hon. Members in this debate and in for leave to withdraw new clause 4. Will Ministers look Committee, and by stakeholders more generally. If we at the big question of the timetable for the Bill, and conclude that there is a better way forward, we will table particularly this part of it, in the light of the Leveson appropriate amendments in another place. report? We need to ensure that we are seen to be legislating carefully, but we would perhaps make ourselves Sir Peter Bottomley: I am most grateful to the hon. look foolish if we tried to legislate this year or a few Lady, and may I say on behalf of hon. Members on months into the next year in the certain knowledge that both sides of the House that we welcome the approach we would need to return to the matter. The House and that she and the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the Government should reserve a space to legislate in my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam the light of Leveson. It would be unacceptable for (Jeremy Wright), have taken in picking up this brief and anybody in the months ahead to put the argument that this Bill? we cannot return to the matter because we have addressed When reflecting with advisers, and hopefully with it in the Bill. outsiders, will she ask whether, if the Bill becomes an Act, it would be possible to dispose of the case I John McDonnell: I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman mentioned—El Naschie v. Macmillan, the publishers of and the parties that there should be a discussion on the Nature? Would it be possible to dispose early of the process through the usual channels. I agree that the Bill Rath v. Guardian case, the British Chiropractic Association could be completely abortive, and that we would look v. Simon Singh, or NMT Medical’s case against Peter ridiculous if we returned to it so soon after it was Wilmshurst? By the time the Bill gets to the other place passed. There is potential for an agreed discussion on and amendments come back to this House, we ought to the timetable between the parties. have an understanding that cases with no merit whatsoever will be recognised as such by the courts early on. Simon Hughes: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.

Mrs Grant: I cannot comment on the details of Mr MacShane: It is vital that the other place slows individual cases, but if my hon. Friend writes to me, the Bill down because it is in lock-step with Leveson. I will look at what he says. There is complete and utter parallelity or parallelness In the light of the assurances I have given the House between the two—[Laughter.] Hansard can sort that that the Government continue to look broadly at how a out. I strongly second what the right hon. Gentleman public interest defence might be framed, I hope hon. says. Members agree not to press their proposals to a Division. Simon Hughes: I agree that there is complete and Simon Hughes: I shall be brief in winding up this utter whatever-it-is between the two. valuable debate. I am grateful to colleagues, who have expressed different views on how we should proceed. Sir Peter Bottomley: I disagree with the good people My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough on the Opposition Benches. This Bill is about defamation. (Mr Garnier) said that it would be best to leave it to We know that there will be something on privacy, and common law, but the problem with the common law we also know that Lord Leveson is likely to talk about argument, as he conceded, is that someone is required the way in which the press and others operate. If this to go to court to take the law on and test the case. Libel Bill, dealing with defamation, is held up to bring in and defamation cases are hugely expensive. I and many something dealing with privacy in its own time, we will hon. Members are trying to ensure first that the law is end up with the kind of confusion that we are trying to clearer, and secondly that we protect our constituents get away from. from having to go to court to assert their rights. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John Simon Hughes: We are hearing a quick last set of bids McDonnell) argued for a differential test for those in for how the Government should proceed. The point public life and those not in public life. Those of us in that will reconcile those views and mine is this. Although public life are much better equipped and able to go to my noble Friend Lord McNally is keen that we should law if we want to do so. If the bar were to be lower for introduce reforms and have a modern law on defamation, people in public life, so the capacity to respond would the Ministry of Justice should none the less have a also be easier. I do not necessarily accept that that is wider debate with colleagues in both Houses, particularly 357 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 358

[Simon Hughes] Greenwood, Lilian Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Griffith, Nia Morris, Grahame M. in this House, about how that should be achieved, while Gwynne, Andrew (Easington) at the same time ensuring that we do not lose the Hain, rh Mr Peter Mudie, Mr George opportunities to do what Lord Justice Leveson recommends. Hamilton, Mr David Munn, Meg We need to have that debate. It would not preclude Hamilton, Fabian Murray, Ian Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa concluding the Defamation Bill, but whether it would Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nash, Pamela include this part of the Bill, for example, or whether we Harris, Mr Tom O’Donnell, Fiona would leave the issue to be addressed in the public Healey, rh John Onwurah, Chi interest debate post Leveson is a matter to be resolved. I Hendrick, Mark Osborne, Sandra hope that there is agreement that that sort of conversation Hepburn, Mr Stephen Paisley, Ian could happen. I am sure that Ministers will want to be Hermon, Lady Pearce, Teresa helpful, and I will certainly talk to my colleagues across Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Government in other Departments, including the Deputy Hilling, Julie Pound, Stephen Prime Minister, and say, “There is an issue here and Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Government collectively need to address it.” With those Hood, Mr Jim Raynsford, rh Mr Nick words, I beg to ask leave to withdraw new clause 4. Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Howarth, rh Mr George Reeves, Rachel Clause, by leave, withdrawn. Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Emma Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Jonathan Clause 5 Jackson, Glenda Riordan, Mrs Linda Jamieson, Cathy Ritchie, Ms Margaret OPERATORS OF WEBSITES Jarvis, Dan Robertson, John Amendment proposed: 7, page 3, line 22, leave out Johnson, rh Alan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey clause 5.—(Robert Flello.) Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Question put, That the amendment be made. Jones, Graham Roy, Lindsay Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris The House divided: Ayes 204, Noes 276. Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Division No. 65] [5.11 pm Jones, Susan Elan Sarwar, Anas Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Seabeck, Alison AYES Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sharma, Mr Virendra Keeley, Barbara Abbott, Ms Diane Cunningham, Alex Sheerman, Mr Barry Kendall, Liz Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cunningham, Mr Jim Sheridan, Jim Khan, rh Sadiq Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cunningham, Sir Tony Skinner, Mr Dennis Lammy, rh Mr David Alexander, Heidi Curran, Margaret Slaughter, Mr Andy Lavery, Ian Ali, Rushanara Danczuk, Simon Smith, rh Mr Andrew Leslie, Chris Allen, Mr Graham David, Wayne Smith, Angela Lewis, Mr Ivan Ashworth, Jonathan Davies, Geraint Smith, Owen Long, Naomi Bailey, Mr Adrian De Piero, Gloria Spellar, rh Mr John Lucas, Caroline Bain, Mr William Denham, rh Mr John Straw, rh Mr Jack Lucas, Ian Banks, Gordon Dobbin, Jim Stuart, Ms Gisela MacShane, rh Mr Denis Barron, rh Mr Kevin Dobson, rh Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Beckett, rh Margaret Docherty, Thomas Malhotra, Seema Tami, Mark Begg, Dame Anne Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Mann, John Thomas, Mr Gareth Benn, rh Hilary Doran, Mr Frank Marsden, Mr Gordon Trickett, Jon Benton, Mr Joe Dowd, Jim McCann, Mr Michael Turner, Karl Betts, Mr Clive Doyle, Gemma McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka Blomfield, Paul Dromey, Jack McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith Blunkett, rh Mr David Dugher, Michael McDonagh, Siobhain Vaz, Valerie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Durkan, Mark McDonnell, John Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Ms Angela Watson, Mr Tom McFadden, rh Mr Pat Brown, Lyn Efford, Clive Watts, Mr Dave McGovern, Jim Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Ellman, Mrs Louise Whitehead, Dr Alan McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Brown, Mr Russell Engel, Natascha Williamson, Chris McKechin, Ann Burden, Richard Esterson, Bill Wilson, Phil McKenzie, Mr Iain Byrne, rh Mr Liam Evans, Chris Winnick, Mr David McKinnell, Catherine Campbell, Mr Alan Farrelly, Paul Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Mearns, Ian Campbell, Mr Gregory Field, rh Mr Frank Wood, Mike Michael, rh Alun Campbell, Mr Ronnie Fitzpatrick, Jim Wright, David Miliband, rh David Caton, Martin Flello, Robert Wright, Mr Iain Miller, Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Tom Flint, rh Caroline Mitchell, Austin Clwyd, rh Ann Flynn, Paul Tellers for the Ayes: Moon, Mrs Madeleine Coaker, Vernon Fovargue, Yvonne Nic Dakin and Morden, Jessica Coffey, Ann Francis, Dr Hywel Tom Blenkinsop Connarty, Michael Gardiner, Barry Corbyn, Jeremy Glass, Pat NOES Crausby, Mr David Glindon, Mrs Mary Adams, Nigel Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Creagh, Mary Goggins, rh Paul Afriyie, Adam Bacon, Mr Richard Creasy, Stella Goodman, Helen Aldous, Peter Baker, Steve Cruddas, Jon Greatrex, Tom Cryer, John Green, Kate Andrew, Stuart Baldry, Sir Tony 359 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 360

Baldwin, Harriett Freer, Mike Lewis, Dr Julian Rutley, David Barclay, Stephen Fullbrook, Lorraine Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Baron, Mr John Fuller, Richard Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Barwell, Gavin Garnier, Mr Edward Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Bebb, Guto Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Stephen Shapps, rh Grant Beith, rh Sir Alan Gauke, Mr David Lopresti, Jack Sharma, Alok Bellingham, Mr Henry George, Andrew Lord, Jonathan Shelbrooke, Alec Beresford, Sir Paul Gibb, Mr Nick Luff, Peter Shepherd, Mr Richard Berry, Jake Gilbert, Stephen Lumley, Karen Simpson, Mr Keith Bingham, Andrew Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Macleod, Mary Skidmore, Chris Binley, Mr Brian Glen, John Main, Mrs Anne Smith, Miss Chloe Blackman, Bob Goldsmith, Zac Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Henry Blackwood, Nicola Goodwill, Mr Robert Maynard, Paul Smith, Julian Bone, Mr Peter Graham, Richard McCartney, Jason Smith, Sir Robert Bottomley, Sir Peter Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Karl Soubry, Anna Bradley, Karen Gray, Mr James McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Brady, Mr Graham Grayling, rh Chris McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Brake, rh Tom Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McPartland, Stephen Stevenson, John Bray, Angie Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Stewart, Bob Brazier, Mr Julian Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Stewart, Iain Bridgen, Andrew Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel Stride, Mel Brine, Steve Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne Stuart, Mr Graham Browne, Mr Jeremy Hames, Duncan Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stunell, rh Andrew Bruce, Fiona Hancock, Matthew Moore, rh Michael Sturdy, Julian Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Hands, Greg Mordaunt, Penny Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Buckland, Mr Robert Harper, Mr Mark Morgan, Nicky Swire, rh Mr Hugo Burley, Mr Aidan Harrington, Richard Morris, David Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Burns, rh Mr Simon Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Thurso, John Burrowes, Mr David Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward Burstow, rh Paul Hayes, Mr John Mowat, David Tomlinson, Justin Burt, Lorely Heald, Oliver Mulholland, Greg Tredinnick, David Byles, Dan Heath, Mr David Munt, Tessa Turner, Mr Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hemming, John Murray, Sheryll Tyrie, Mr Andrew Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Henderson, Gordon Neill, Robert Uppal, Paul Carmichael, Neil Hendry, Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks Vaizey, Mr Edward Carswell, Mr Douglas Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse Vara, Mr Shailesh Cash, Mr William Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David Vickers, Martin Chishti, Rehman Hollobone, Mr Philip Offord, Dr Matthew Walker, Mr Charles Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hopkins, Kris Ollerenshaw, Eric Walker, Mr Robin Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Horwood, Martin Opperman, Guy Wallace, Mr Ben Coffey, Dr Thérèse Howarth, Mr Gerald Ottaway, Richard Walter, Mr Robert Collins, Damian Howell, John Paice, rh Mr James Ward, Mr David Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hughes, rh Simon Parish, Neil Watkinson, Angela Crouch, Tracey Huhne, rh Chris Patel, Priti Weatherley, Mike Davey, rh Mr Edward Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pawsey, Mark Wheeler, Heather Davies, Glyn Huppert, Dr Julian Penrose, John White, Chris Davies, Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew Whittaker, Craig de Bois, Nick James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Whittingdale, Mr John Dinenage, Caroline Javid, Sajid Pincher, Christopher Wiggin, Bill Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jenkin, Mr Bernard Prisk, Mr Mark Williams, Mr Mark Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Johnson, Gareth Pugh, John Williams, Roger Dorries, Nadine Johnson, Joseph Raab, Mr Dominic Williams, Stephen Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Andrew Randall, rh Mr John Williamson, Gavin Drax, Richard Jones, rh Mr David Reckless, Mark Willott, Jenny Duddridge, James Jones, Mr Marcus Redwood, rh Mr John Wilson, Mr Rob Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kawczynski, Daniel Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wollaston, Dr Sarah Dunne, Mr Philip Kelly, Chris Reid, Mr Alan Wright, Jeremy Ellis, Michael Kirby, Simon Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wright, Simon Ellison, Jane Knight, rh Mr Greg Robertson, rh Hugh Young, rh Sir George Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kwarteng, Kwasi Robertson, Mr Laurence Zahawi, Nadhim Elphicke, Charlie Laing, Mrs Eleanor Rogerson, Dan Eustice, George Lamb, Norman Rudd, Amber Tellers for the Noes: Evans, Graham Lancaster, Mark Ruffley, Mr David Mr Robert Syms and Evans, Jonathan Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Russell, Sir Bob Mark Hunter Evennett, Mr David Latham, Pauline Fabricant, Michael Leadsom, Andrea Question accordingly negatived. Fallon, rh Michael Lee, Dr Phillip Amendments made: 5, page 3, line 33, at end insert— Featherstone, Lynne Leech, Mr John Field, Mark Lefroy, Jeremy ‘(3A) For the purposes of subsection (3)(a), it is possible for a Foster, rh Mr Don Leigh, Mr Edward claimant to “identify” a person only if the claimant has sufficient Francois, rh Mr Mark Leslie, Charlotte information to bring proceedings against the person.’ Freeman, George Lewis, Brandon Amendment 6, page 4, line 9, at end insert— 361 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 362

‘(10) The defence under this section is not defeated by reason would be started against the bookseller. The bookseller only of the fact that the operator of the website moderates the invariably had to remove the publication from his shelves, statements posted on it by others.’—(Mrs Grant.) as he did not have the resources with which to defend himself against litigation without the availability of the Clause 10 innocent dissemination defence. The claimant therefore achieved the withdrawal of the publication whether or not he had a proper case, without having to issue any ACTION AGAINST A PERSON WHO WAS NOT THE AUTHOR, proceedings against the author or publisher or, indeed, EDITOR ETC the bookseller. That device has been used by a number of vexatious litigants. Robert Flello: I beg to move amendment 8, page 8, line 26, leave out from ‘court’ to end of line 28 and insert— Paragraph (c) of amendment 8 is intended to reinstate ‘(a) is satisfied that it is not reasonably practicable for an the defence of innocent dissemination for booksellers. action to be brought against the author, editor or As they have pointed out, if they cannot rely on other publisher; and defences and are considered to be an easy target, and if (b) there is a prima facia case that the statement complained clause 10 does not enable the publisher and the other of is defamatory; and parties to a publication to mount a challenge, a bookseller (c) is satisfied that such person did not know that the wants to be able to at least use other defences. statement was defamatory until a claim to that effect I do not want to detain the House. That is the crux of was made and did not reasonably believe that there what I propose, and I look forward to what the Minister was a good defence to any action brought upon it.’. has to say. In Committee I moved a similar amendment—I think it was amendment 16—which sought to weed out, at an Sir Peter Bottomley: I am grateful to the hon. Member early stage, unnecessary cases coming before the courts for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) for raising involving no defamation. Replying to the debate, the this subject. His amendment refers to there being then Minister expressed concern about the requirement “a prima facia case that the statement complained of is defamatory”. for a court to determine at an early stage whether a I think that is right. People ought to ask themselves statement was indeed defamatory. I therefore withdrew whether there is a reasonable probability that the claim the amendment in order to reconsider it. Amendment 8 will be successful. In criminal cases, people are not recasts it, requiring simply that a prima facie case brought to court unless there is a 50:50 chance or more should exist. However, it also incorporates more of the of conviction. concerns raised by the Booksellers Association which I raised in Committee on 26 June. That debate can be We need to go further than the prima facia case, found at column 162 of Hansard, if the Minister wishes however. The court ought to hold that there is defamation, to grab her copy and look it up quickly. No, I thought that it is actionable and that it is likely that a court case that she would not. would end in success for the claimant. Too many cases are brought that will clearly not be successful when they The then Minister gave what I felt, and indeed the come to a full hearing. That applies not only to Booksellers Association felt, was an unsatisfactory response. booksellers—the category this amendment specifically The points made by the Booksellers Association are addresses—but all the other types of case about which as follows. First, although section 1 of the Defamation I have been concerned. Act 1996 is available to booksellers as a defence, it is very much weaker than the common law defence of Mrs Grant: Amendment 8 would add two additional innocent dissemination which that section replaced. It hurdles to overcome before a court had jurisdiction to has been suggested that section 1 was never intended to hear a defamation claim against someone who was not do what it has done, and that the problem was inadvertently a primary publisher. We do not consider this amendment caused by sloppy drafting. In Committee, the then to be appropriate. It would significantly limit the Minister felt that there were differing views on the circumstances in which a court would have jurisdiction section and on whether it was weaker than the common to hear an action against a person who was not the law defence. If that is so, it would be helpful to know author, editor or publisher of a defamatory statement. who feels that it is not weaker than the Booksellers To provide that an action against a secondary publisher Association and other observers believe it to be. can only be brought where it can be proved that the Secondly, under section 1 booksellers, and indeed secondary publisher had knowledge that the statement other secondary publishers such as newsagents and was defamatory and that there was no defence would distributors, lose that protection if they know, or have raise the bar for establishing jurisdiction to a very high reason to believe, that a publication contains any defamatory level, and would tip the balance too far against the statement. Under the previous defence of innocent interests of the claimant. It could leave them with no dissemination, a defence would have existed if the bookseller means of restoring their reputation. had a reasonable belief that the alleged defamatory In addition, it would be very unusual to require a material was not libellous, having been assured by his or court to consider the substance of a case at the same her own lawyers, or by lawyers for the author or publisher, time as determining whether to grant jurisdiction for that one or more of the statutory defences applied. the action to be brought. On that basis, I hope the hon. Thirdly, as a result of the elimination of the innocent Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) will dissemination defence, a technique known as the sending agree to withdraw his amendment. of “clogging letters” was adopted. A clogging letter was a letter sent by the claimant’s lawyers to a bookseller Robert Flello: I hear what the Minister says. However, warning that unless a publication containing the alleged I urge her to consider the amendment again, if I am not libel was immediately withdrawn from sale, proceedings successful in the Division I shall now seek. 363 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 364

Question put, That the amendment be made. McGovern, Jim Roy, Lindsay McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Ruane, Chris The House divided: Ayes 202, Noes 276. McKechin, Ann Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Division No. 66] [5.32 pm McKenzie, Mr Iain Sarwar, Anas McKinnell, Catherine Seabeck, Alison AYES Mearns, Ian Sharma, Mr Virendra Michael, rh Alun Sheerman, Mr Barry Abbott, Ms Diane Field, rh Mr Frank Miliband, rh David Sheridan, Jim Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Fitzpatrick, Jim Miller, Andrew Skinner, Mr Dennis Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Flello, Robert Mitchell, Austin Slaughter, Mr Andy Alexander, Heidi Flint, rh Caroline Moon, Mrs Madeleine Smith, rh Mr Andrew Ali, Rushanara Flynn, Paul Morden, Jessica Smith, Angela Allen, Mr Graham Francis, Dr Hywel Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, Owen Ashworth, Jonathan Gardiner, Barry Morris, Grahame M. Spellar, rh Mr John Bailey, Mr Adrian Glass, Pat (Easington) Straw, rh Mr Jack Bain, Mr William Glindon, Mrs Mary Mudie, Mr George Stuart, Ms Gisela Banks, Gordon Goggins, rh Paul Munn, Meg Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Barron, rh Mr Kevin Goodman, Helen Murray, Ian Tami, Mark Beckett, rh Margaret Greatrex, Tom Nandy, Lisa Thomas, Mr Gareth Begg, Dame Anne Green, Kate Nash, Pamela Timms, rh Stephen Benn, rh Hilary Greenwood, Lilian O’Donnell, Fiona Trickett, Jon Benton, Mr Joe Griffith, Nia Onwurah, Chi Turner, Karl Blomfield, Paul Gwynne, Andrew Osborne, Sandra Umunna, Mr Chuka Blunkett, rh Mr David Hain, rh Mr Peter Paisley, Ian Vaz, rh Keith Bottomley, Sir Peter Hamilton, Mr David Pearce, Teresa Vaz, Valerie Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hamilton, Fabian Phillipson, Bridget Watson, Mr Tom Brennan, Kevin Hanson, rh Mr David Pound, Stephen Watts, Mr Dave Brown, Lyn Harman, rh Ms Harriet Qureshi, Yasmin Whitehead, Dr Alan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Harris, Mr Tom Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Williamson, Chris Brown, Mr Russell Healey, rh John Reeves, Rachel Wilson, Phil Burden, Richard Hendrick, Mark Reynolds, Emma Winnick, Mr David Campbell, Mr Alan Hepburn, Mr Stephen Reynolds, Jonathan Wood, Mike Campbell, Mr Gregory Hermon, Lady Riordan, Mrs Linda Wright, David Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hillier, Meg Ritchie, Ms Margaret Wright, Mr Iain Caton, Martin Hilling, Julie Robertson, John Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hodge, rh Margaret Tellers for the Ayes: Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Clwyd, rh Ann Hood, Mr Jim Yvonne Fovargue and Coaker, Vernon Hopkins, Kelvin Roy, Mr Frank Tom Blenkinsop Coffey, Ann Howarth, rh Mr George Connarty, Michael Hunt, Tristram NOES Corbyn, Jeremy Irranca-Davies, Huw Adams, Nigel Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Crausby, Mr David Jackson, Glenda Afriyie, Adam Buckland, Mr Robert Creagh, Mary Jamieson, Cathy Aldous, Peter Burley, Mr Aidan Creasy, Stella Jarvis, Dan Andrew, Stuart Burns, rh Mr Simon Cruddas, Jon Johnson, rh Alan Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burrowes, Mr David Cryer, John Johnson, Diana Bacon, Mr Richard Burstow, rh Paul Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham Baker, Steve Burt, Lorely Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Baldry, Sir Tony Byles, Dan Cunningham, Sir Tony Jones, Mr Kevan Baldwin, Harriett Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan Barclay, Stephen Carmichael, Neil Dakin, Nic Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Baron, Mr John Carswell, Mr Douglas Danczuk, Simon Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Barwell, Gavin Cash, Mr William David, Wayne Keeley, Barbara Bebb, Guto Chishti, Rehman Davidson, Mr Ian Kendall, Liz Beith, rh Sir Alan Clark, rh Greg Davies, Geraint Khan, rh Sadiq Bellingham, Mr Henry Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth De Piero, Gloria Lammy, rh Mr David Beresford, Sir Paul Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Dobbin, Jim Lavery, Ian Berry, Jake Coffey, Dr Thérèse Dobson, rh Frank Leslie, Chris Bingham, Andrew Collins, Damian Docherty, Thomas Lewis, Mr Ivan Binley, Mr Brian Cox, Mr Geoffrey Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Long, Naomi Blackman, Bob Crouch, Tracey Doran, Mr Frank Lucas, Caroline Blackwood, Nicola Davies, Glyn Dowd, Jim Lucas, Ian Boles, Nick Davies, Philip Doyle, Gemma MacShane, rh Mr Denis Bone, Mr Peter de Bois, Nick Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona Dugher, Michael Malhotra, Seema Bradley, Karen Dinenage, Caroline Durkan, Mark Mann, John Brady, Mr Graham Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Brake, rh Tom Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Efford, Clive McCann, Mr Michael Bray, Angie Dorries, Nadine Ellman, Mrs Louise McCarthy, Kerry Brazier, Mr Julian Doyle-Price, Jackie Engel, Natascha McClymont, Gregg Bridgen, Andrew Drax, Richard Esterson, Bill McDonagh, Siobhain Brine, Steve Duddridge, James Evans, Chris McDonnell, John Browne, Mr Jeremy Duncan, rh Mr Alan Farrelly, Paul McFadden, rh Mr Pat Bruce, Fiona Ellis, Michael 365 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 366

Ellison, Jane Lamb, Norman Robertson, Mr Laurence Tomlinson, Justin Elphicke, Charlie Lancaster, Mark Rogerson, Dan Tredinnick, David Eustice, George Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Rudd, Amber Truss, Elizabeth Evans, Graham Latham, Pauline Ruffley, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew Evans, Jonathan Laws, rh Mr David Russell, Sir Bob Tyrie, Mr Andrew Evennett, Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Rutley, David Uppal, Paul Fabricant, Michael Lee, Dr Phillip Sandys, Laura Vara, Mr Shailesh Fallon, rh Michael Leech, Mr John Scott, Mr Lee Vickers, Martin Featherstone, Lynne Lefroy, Jeremy Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Charles Field, Mark Leigh, Mr Edward Shapps, rh Grant Walker, Mr Robin Foster, rh Mr Don Leslie, Charlotte Sharma, Alok Wallace, Mr Ben Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, Brandon Shelbrooke, Alec Walter, Mr Robert Freeman, George Lewis, Dr Julian Shepherd, Mr Richard Ward, Mr David Freer, Mike Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Simmonds, Mark Watkinson, Angela Fullbrook, Lorraine Lidington, rh Mr David Simpson, Mr Keith Weatherley, Mike Garnier, Mr Edward Lilley, rh Mr Peter Skidmore, Chris Webb, Steve Garnier, Mark Lloyd, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Wheeler, Heather George, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Smith, Henry White, Chris Gibb, Mr Nick Lord, Jonathan Smith, Julian Whittaker, Craig Gilbert, Stephen Luff, Peter Smith, Sir Robert Whittingdale, Mr John Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lumley, Karen Soubry, Anna Wiggin, Bill Glen, John Macleod, Mary Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Williams, Mr Mark Goldsmith, Zac Main, Mrs Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Williams, Roger Goodwill, Mr Robert Maude, rh Mr Francis Stanley, rh Sir John Williams, Stephen Graham, Richard Maynard, Paul Stevenson, John Williamson, Gavin Grant, Mrs Helen McCartney, Jason Stewart, Bob Willott, Jenny Gray, Mr James McCartney, Karl Stewart, Iain Wilson, Mr Rob Grayling, rh Chris McIntosh, Miss Anne Stride, Mel Wollaston, Dr Sarah Greening, rh Justine McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stuart, Mr Graham Wright, Jeremy Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McPartland, Stephen Stunell, rh Andrew Wright, Simon Griffiths, Andrew Menzies, Mark Sturdy, Julian Young, rh Sir George Gummer, Ben Metcalfe, Stephen Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Zahawi, Nadhim Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel Swire, rh Mr Hugo Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Tellers for the Noes: Hames, Duncan Moore, rh Michael Thurso, John Mark Hunter and Hammond, Stephen Mordaunt, Penny Timpson, Mr Edward Mr Robert Syms Hancock, Matthew Morgan, Nicky Hands, Greg Morris, David Question accordingly negatived. Harper, Mr Mark Morris, James Harrington, Richard Mosley, Stephen Third Reading Harris, Rebecca Mowat, David 5.44 pm Hart, Simon Mulholland, Greg Hayes, Mr John Mundell, rh David The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa (Chris Grayling): I beg to move, That the Bill be now Hemming, John Murray, Sheryll read the Third time. Henderson, Gordon Neill, Robert Hendry, Charles Newmark, Mr Brooks I am pleased to be here for this Third Reading debate. Herbert, rh Nick Norman, Jesse I thank my two colleagues, the Under-Secretaries of Hinds, Damian Nuttall, Mr David State for Justice, my hon. Friends the Members for Hoban, Mr Mark Offord, Dr Matthew Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) and for Kenilworth Hollobone, Mr Philip Ollerenshaw, Eric and Southam (Jeremy Wright), for their role in the Hopkins, Kris Opperman, Guy debate so far, and for picking up the subject so quickly. Horwood, Martin Ottaway, Richard We have all been in our jobs for only a few days. I also Howarth, Mr Gerald Paice, rh Mr James look forward to sparring with the shadow Secretary of Howell, John Parish, Neil State, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), Hughes, rh Simon Patel, Priti in the Chamber over the coming months. I pay tribute Huhne, rh Chris Pawsey, Mark to Members for the quality of today’s debate, which has Huppert, Dr Julian Penrose, John been constructive. These are serious matters and we Jackson, Mr Stewart Percy, Andrew need to get them right. James, Margot Phillips, Stephen Javid, Sajid Pincher, Christopher The Bill has now proceeded through its scrutiny Jenkin, Mr Bernard Poulter, Dr Daniel stages in this House. The issues that it addresses go to Johnson, Gareth Prisk, Mr Mark the core of what it means to live in a free and open Johnson, Joseph Pugh, John society. The right to speak freely and to debate issues Jones, Andrew Raab, Mr Dominic without fear of censure are a vital part of a democratic Jones, rh Mr David Randall, rh Mr John society. However, that freedom should not be used to Jones, Mr Marcus Reckless, Mark damage the reputation of others without regard to the Kawczynski, Daniel Redwood, rh Mr John facts. Lives and careers can be destroyed by false allegations Kelly, Chris Rees-Mogg, Jacob that go unanswered. The issue for our defamation laws Kirby, Simon Reid, Mr Alan is ultimately one of striking the right balance between Knight, rh Mr Greg Robathan, rh Mr Andrew the protection of freedom of expression and the protection Kwarteng, Kwasi Robertson, rh Hugh of reputation. 367 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 368

The Bill reflects our view that the law is out of kilter, which that is achieved is through the creation of new and that our defamation regime is out of date, costly statutory defences of honest opinion and truth to replace and over-complicated. It needs urgent reform so as to the existing common-law defences. offer more effective protection for freedom of speech Alongside those new defences, the Bill introduces a and to stop the threat of long and costly libel proceedings new statutory defence of responsible publication in the being used to stifle responsible investigative reporting public interest, which is based on the common-law and scientific and academic debate. We also need to defence that has been developed by the courts, initially stop powerful interests overseas with little connection in the case of Reynolds v. Times Newspapers, and more to the United Kingdom using the threat of British libel recently in cases such as Flood v. Times Newspapers. laws to suppress domestic criticism as part of libel We recognise the concerns from differing perspectives tourism. that have been expressed about the measure, so let me Equally, it is vital to ensure that people who have reiterate a point that the Under-Secretary of State for been defamed are not left without effective remedies Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and when their reputation has been seriously harmed. It The Weald, made earlier. This ministerial team has would not do to move from one extreme to the other, come to these issues relatively freshly in the past few with sensible reform of the law giving too much licence days. We are not closed-minded, and the important to those who exercise freedom of expression without thing is to get this measure right. Although we did not responsibility. The core aim of the Bill is therefore to accept the amendments that were considered today, ensure that the right balance is achieved, so that free I want to send a clear message that we are open to speech is not unjustifiably impeded by actual or threatened continued discussions. We are happy to table Government libel proceedings, but so, too, that people who have been amendments in the other place if that would be appropriate defamed are able to protect their reputation. and prudent to improve the quality of the Bill. I am not I am grateful to all right hon. and hon. Members who saying that we will accept every proposal on the table, have taken part in the Bill’s scrutiny, not only this but we are open to continuing discussions on the Bill afternoon but on Second Reading and in Committee. I and to making changes so that we try to ensure that we welcome the support that has been expressed from all get it absolutely right. parts of the House, during the debate today and at Another focus of debate has been the provisions in earlier stages, for the principles underlying the Bill and clause 5 to deal with responsibility for publications on the need for reform. Inevitably, there are differences of the internet, which is an aspect of our current regime opinion on the detail, many of which have been expressed that is genuinely in need of modernisation. Clause 5 today. gives a defence to website operators in relation to material I would like to use this opportunity to explain again posted by users of sites that they host. To maintain the the Government’s approach and our position on a defence, the operators will have to comply with a new number of key issues. In the light of our core aim, the procedure aimed at ensuring that complaints can be Bill contains a range of measures aimed at supporting directed to the authors of the material—that is really freedom of expression. One of our central objectives important—but there must be protection for operators has been to ensure that trivial and unfounded actions who are doing the right thing. We have made amendments for defamation do not succeed. Clause 1 therefore provides to clarify a number of points of detail in the clause, and that, for a statement to be defamatory, it must have we will be seeking views on regulations to support the caused, or be likely to cause, serious harm to the reputation new process in due course. of the claimant. That test raises the threshold for claims, Our approach will stop website operators from being and represents a higher hurdle than the one that currently unfairly exposed to liability in defamation proceedings applies. This will help to discourage trivial claims, while while still encouraging them to behave responsibly. It ensuring that claimants can still take effective action to will help freedom of expression by ensuring that material protect their reputation when it has been seriously harmed. is not simply taken down without the author having an Other measures through which the Bill bolsters freedom opportunity to express his or her views, which frequently of expression include: a single publication rule, which happens now, but it will still ensure that people who will mean that a publisher cannot be repeatedly sued for have had their reputation seriously harmed online can the same material; sensible action to address libel tourism, take action against the person who is truly responsible, which has caused considerable harm to this country’s not the intermediary. In tandem with that, clause 10 will reputation around the world; and greater protection for ensure that secondary publishers such as booksellers website operators and for other secondary publishers, and newsagents are not unfairly targeted and that action such as local booksellers and newsagents. is taken against the primary publisher whenever possible. In addition to those general measures, the Bill takes Let me be clear that while we are determined to specific steps to encourage robust scientific and academic protect and enhance freedom of expression, we are also debate by creating a new defence against libel for peer- determined to ensure that there is no free-for-all. This is reviewed material in scientific and academic journals, not open season for making defamatory comments with and by extending qualified privilege to reports of scientific no fear of redress. To ensure that a fair balance is and academic conferences. Given the work that my achieved between the interests of claimants and defendants, right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and it is important that effective remedies are available for Science is doing to promote science in this country, the those who have been defamed, so clause 12 adds to more we can send messages that we value scientific existing remedies by setting out provisions extending research in this country, the better. the courts’ existing power to order the publication of a The Bill provides simpler and clearer defences to summary of its judgment to ensure that, when appropriate, those accused of defamation, and ensures that they are a meaningful public clarification can be given that a available outside mainstream media cases. One way in story was wrong. 369 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 370

[Chris Grayling] vehicle to bring our defamation law into the 21st century, making it fairer, simpler and cheaper so that public I emphasise again our firm commitment to reducing debate is encouraged, not stifled. Our emotional attachment the cost of defamation proceedings, which has been a to the Bill is therefore strong. That said, as it stands the barrier to people who have found themselves in problematic Bill is a wasted opportunity. Blue moons come around situations. Clause 11, which removes the presumption more often than defamation reform: the most recent in favour of jury trial, will help with that by enabling reform took place in 1996, and the one before that in key issues such as the meaning of allegedly defamatory 1952—even the Justice Secretary’s predecessor was not material to be decided by a judge at an early stage. in Parliament then—so we should not expect the next Allied with that, we are taking forward work on procedural opportunity to arise soon. We need to take full advantage changes to facilitate the early resolution of key issues, of this window. Furthermore, there is political consensus: and we will be considering how best to encourage all three main political parties called for an update of alternative means of resolving disputes, such as mediation, our defamation law in our election manifesto. The to encourage settlements and prevent unnecessary litigation. absence of major policy differences should allow us to I thank Opposition Members, especially the hon. focus our energy on getting the Bill right and make the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), for most of an infrequent opportunity. That is why we are the measured way in which the Bill’s proceedings have so disappointed: we have not grasped that opportunity. been conducted. We will not agree about every aspect of The Bill has reached Third Reading without any the Bill, but such debates are valuable to ensure that we major improvements or changes since it was first published get this important measure right. The Bill’s consideration back in May. The Joint Committee did some excellent has been constructive and thorough. We think that the work, and its members must be tearing their hair out Bill sets out a balanced and fair package of measures because most of their hard work has been wasted. The that will allow debate on matters of public importance Bill is deficient in several respects: it makes no specific to thrive. We are open to continued debate and dialogue provision on corporations bringing defamation proceedings; in the other place to ensure that we get the Bill right but, it deals inadequately with the treatment of website above all, we must make sure that we provide appropriate operators; and there is no definition of serious harm. remedies for those who have been defamed. To add insult to injury—or perhaps I should say injury to insult—the Bill risks making matters worse by codifying 5.54 pm an earlier version of the Reynolds defence of responsible publication. Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): First, I take the opportunity to congratulate and welcome the entire Front-Bench We have other concerns. The Bill fails to provide a Justice team to their new roles; I wish them well. I also new and effective public interest defence. The Government welcome the Justice Secretary to the Dispatch Box for still want to rely on regulations to sort out the mess that his first outing in his new office. I congratulate him on is clause 5, but despite more than four months having his well deserved promotion to the Cabinet and look elapsed since the Bill was first published, no regulations forward to working with him in those areas where we or draft regulations have been seen. No effort has been have shared objectives, such as the updating of our made to address the issue of costs or judicial case outdated defamation laws. I agree with much of what he management. What is the point of reforming the law said and the tenor of his speech on Third Reading. if, at the same time, we take away the ability of the ordinary citizen to use it or of the courts to prevent it Many people have played a role in getting the Bill to from being abused? this stage and I thank all those who have been involved in its long passage: the Libel Reform Campaign, whose As you know, Mr Speaker, I am an optimist. This members have shown dedication and passion in rightly week, we have seen evidence to encourage my optimism. pushing Parliament to modernise our outdated defamation On Monday, the new-look justice team showed their laws; the working group established under the previous willingness to recognise the errors of their predecessors Government by my right hon. Friend the Member for by withdrawing the statutory instrument that would Blackburn (Mr Straw); the Joint Committee of both have resulted in deep cuts in compensation for victims Houses that scrutinised the draft Bill; and all those who of crime. Perhaps that was the first indication of a new participated in the Second Reading debate and Committee approach—a Department with completely new Ministers stage, including all the former Ministers. that is not afraid to accept that it got things wrong in We welcome much of the Bill—a single publication the past. The Justice Secretary said that his new team do rule, measures to protect foreign defendants from actions not have a closed mind on clause 4. I hope that they do brought in this country, clarification of and improvement not have a closed mind on the rest of the Bill either. to the defence of honest opinion, and additional protection I accept that two major U-turns in a week may be one for a limited number of scientific and academic too many. I accept that there has not been sufficient publications—so let me say straightaway that, despite time over the past week to look at all the mistakes by being hugely disappointed with the Government’s approach the team’s predecessors over the past 28 months, but if in Committee, when they failed to take on board our this is indeed a new approach by the Ministry of Justice, concerns and those of experts, and their approach to I hope that it might be applied to the Bill in the other some of the issues raised on Report, we will not oppose place. I am happy to work with Ministers to that end. Third Reading. We have high hopes that the new team Not for the first time, we look to the other place to and those in the other place will revise and improve address the shortcomings of a Bill leaving the Commons. the Bill. We firmly support the principle of modernising our Several hon. Members rose— out-of-date defamation law—indeed, we set the whole process in train when in government. This Bill is the Mr Speaker: David Morris. 371 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 372

6.1 pm citizens in British courts. Perhaps libel tourism is a result of the extraordinarily high damages that are David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): It often awarded. I am pleased that the Bill will make it is an honour to be the first Back Bencher called in this difficult for litigants not based in the UK to bring debate, Mr Speaker. actions to our courts. I am pleased that clause 4 incorporates This is an important debate, and it is a privilege to the so-called Reynolds defence—a very useful defence have been able to follow the Bill from its early stages in that encourages investigative-style journalism. It is important Committee to Third Reading. I thank the many journalists as part of our democratic process that politicians and and eminent lawyers, both practising and in academia, those who hold public office are held to account. who have given me their valuable contributions along The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old the way, as well as the benefit of their knowledge and Southwark (Simon Hughes) suggested that post-Leveson expertise in this area. we might have to legislate in some of these areas if Lord Media law is a dynamic area of the law. Indeed, Lord Leveson recommends such new legislation. However, I Justice Leveson is due to report in the coming weeks on will not presume to second-guess Lord Justice Leveson, press ethics. Today we have seen the damage that the and I await his report with interest. media can do. Earlier this afternoon, the Prime Minister made a statement to the House and informed right hon. 6.5 pm and hon. Members that the headlines in The Sun in 1989 about Hillsborough were untrue. I am pleased that Mr MacShane: This is a welcome Bill. I welcome the the then editor, Kelvin MacKenzie, has now issued an constructive approach of the new Secretary of State apology. It is my opinion that such comments should and his team and congratulate them on their appointments. never have been made in the first place. The Bill will now go to another place, where we are I have said previously in the House that reforming the rather more well provided with learned friends, the law of defamation is of paramount importance. In fact, lawyers, who may have some thoughts on how it might I was asked during the summer why the Defamation Bill have to be amended. was proceeding through this House, and I said that the Nearly two years ago, in an exchange with the Secretary law of defamation was case-driven. Indeed the definition of State’s predecessor, the right hon. and learned Member of defamation is to be found in the 1936 case of Sim v. for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), I asked: Stretch, in which Lord Atkin said: “Do we not need a small claims court for libel cases which “Would the words tend to lower the plaintiff in the estimation could quickly…at a low cost in damages and expenses deliver of right-thinking members of society generally?” remedial justice, apology and correction?”—[Official Report, 29 March 2011; Vol. 526, c. 161.] If a judge is to interpret the will of Parliament, I think it only fair that we update the existing statute to reflect I very much hoped that this Bill would satisfy that the will of Parliament, particularly given the emergence request, but to be honest, it does not. It tidies up many of the internet and social networking. of the problems to do with libel tourism and scientific publication that have caused a great deal of concern and I am somewhat surprised that Lord Atkins’s definition brought together a big coalition of different campaigners of defamation has never been placed on a statutory who have influenced all parties. However, that does not footing, although I suspect lawyers would argue that allow the small person—what one patronisingly calls that definition is well settled. The purpose of the Bill is “the little man”—to have the quick, swift redress that not to have a chilling effect on the freedom of speech; it exists in other countries when he has suffered a clear is about encouraging academics to publish their work wrong in a newspaper. That is why the parallel work of without fear of defamation actions, and allowing journalists Lord Leveson must be taken into consideration in the and broadcasters to report, as long as they do so in a other place and when the Bill comes back here so that responsible manner. we have a complete package of reform that puts right The Bill is about responsible publication, not about many of the injustices that so many people have faced at chilling publication. I made the point in Committee the hands of a mixture of very powerful media oligarchs that images should be brought into the scope of the Bill. and legal oligarchs. I am pleased that I have received confirmation that they I want particularly to refer to the problem of libel are within its scope, as has been the case for some time tourism. Right now, there is an ongoing case initiated in common law, namely in the case of Tolley v. J.S. Fry by a Mr Pavel Karpov, who is a 35-year-old Interior and Sons. Additionally, I have read the words of Lord Ministry employee in Russia. He was involved in the Bridge in the Charleston case and recognise the important sequence of events that led to the death of Sergei distinction, which he highlighted, that articles should Magnitsky, which has attracted much attention in this be read as a whole. If a reader glances at a photograph House. Through a unanimous resolution of the House and draws a conclusion, that does not make them a of Commons, it has been decided that he and 59 other fair-minded reader. named Russian officials should not be allowed to enter I have previously stated in the House that I am an Britain, although the Foreign Office and the Home Office opponent of so-called libel tourism. For many years, libel are still equivocating on that. On 1 August, Mr Karpov tourism has been a burden on our civil legal system. filed an action in the High Court against William Media lawyer Ursula Smartt said that Browder, who is a British citizen, and Jamison Firestone, “in September 2010 the Daily Telegraph reported that libel challenges who is an American citizen resident in the United by actors and celebrities in the London courts had trebled over Kingdom—Sergei Magnitsky’s former boss and direct the past year.” boss respectively—in order to silence them in their London has been described as the libel capital of the campaign to bring about justice for Mr Magnitsky. world. At the simplest level, libel tourism takes place Pavel Karpov has hired Geraldine Proudler, the partner when foreign citizens conduct actions against foreign and head of the reputation and media litigation practice 373 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 374

[Mr MacShane] only where good journalism flourishes, but where people cannot be unfairly traduced by things said and printed at Olswang, at roughly £600 an hour, when he himself about them. earns $600 a month. He has hired Andrew Caldecott QC— 6.12 pm Mr Speaker: Order. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman Mr Edward Garnier: I will not follow the same acerbic to confirm that the cases that he is describing are not path as the right hon. Member for Rotherham the subject of active proceedings? (Mr MacShane).

Mr MacShane: No, Sir, they are not. They are just Chris Grayling: I am not sure whether this is the filed at the moment and can be discussed. No charges appropriate time, but I am sure that the whole House have been initiated. would like to join me in congratulating my hon. and Such cases are a prime example of libel tourism. One learned Friend on his knighthood. of President Putin’s chief functionaries still thinks that he can get away with libel tourism in this country. I Mr Garnier: In parenthesis to what I was saying hope that someone in the Russian embassy reads this about the right hon. Member for Rotherham, I thank Bill and understands that that kind of libel tourism is my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice no longer acceptable. for his kind remarks and congratulate him on his new position. I congratulated the new Under-Secretaries of Sir Peter Bottomley: You, Mr Speaker, and the right State, my hon. Friends the Members for Kenilworth hon. Gentleman may remember that when we debated and Southam (Jeremy Wright) and for Maidstone and the Sergei Magnitsky case and the scandalous way he The Weald (Mrs Grant) earlier this afternoon. If my had been treated, an offer was made in public that the right hon. Friend maintains the tone that he adopted Russian ambassador might like to have a discussion during his speech, this Bill will not only be improved, with Members of Parliament. Will the right hon. Gentleman but markedly so. I am grateful for the stance that he join me in extending that invitation to the Russian took, which was in marked contrast to that taken by the ambassador? right hon. Member for Rotherham, who thought it amusing, no doubt, to make personal remarks about Mr MacShane: I will freely do so. I do not want to others who cannot protect themselves here; but let us drag this debate into the Magnitsky affair, but it is leave that there. remarkable that, around the world, people think London I also thank the right hon. Member for Tooting is still a town called Sue. Pavel Karpov is a $600-a-month (Sadiq Khan), the shadow Secretary of State for his state functionary, employed in Russia, who is hiring the words and the approach that he and his Front-Bench most expensive lawyers, QCs and solicitors, and who team will take as the Bill goes to the other place. There has even hired a public relations company called PHA is now an opportunity to develop a new defamation Act Media, which is run by Mr Phil Hall, a former editor that will meet some apparent needs, such as how the law of News of the World, to manage his campaign. I hope is applied and libels dealt with in relation to the internet. that the Karpov case will be the first to fall as a result It is time to deal with such things. of tonight’s Third Reading, which will go through I have noted on my copy of the Bill something that unanimously. my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West When the Bill is debated in the other place, I hope (Sir Peter Bottomley) said earlier about clause 1. As that changes will be made to it to help the small man. drafted, the clause confuses what is defamatory and the Much of the Bill—I do not have time to go through the consequences of a defamatory statement. I hope that by details—remains an absolute paradise for lawyers. The the time the Bill becomes an Act, the clause will read: very first clause states that a statement is not defamatory “A defamatory statement is not actionable unless its unless it publication has caused, or is likely to cause, serious “has caused or is likely to cause serious harm to the reputation of harm to the reputation of the claimant”. Many things the claimant.” are defamatory that might not cause much damage, and Occasionally I read comments about you, Mr Speaker. many things are not very defamatory but can cause I do not know whether they cause serious harm and I disproportionate damage. The wording that my hon. certainly do not think that you would wish to comment Friend and I have coincidently come up with deals with on whether they do, but you would have to shell out six that point. I dare say that others will think more carefully times your salary to pay m’learned friends as they about that as the Bill moves forward. debated whether it did. Even the first clause, therefore, On the issue of truth and honest opinion, the way the opens the door for more money to flow into the coffers Bill is constructed is sensible. In my opinion, the law did of our undoubtedly underpaid legal fraternity. not need changing but, if it is to be changed, clauses 2 It is good that we have debated the Bill and that the and 3 deal with it. Government are prepared to co-operate. I agree with I have said what I had to say about clause 4 and the my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Reynolds defence. I want briefly to talk about clause 6. Khan) that the Bill is seriously flawed and hope that it There has been a huge amount of campaigning from will be re-examined in the other place and brought back various groups, such as PEN, Sense about Science and here in a more helpful condition, and that, together so forth, largely based on the case of the chiropractors with Leveson and, possibly, privacy legislation, we can against Simon Singh. I will not go into the facts of the produce a panoply of laws for our nation that will case. Much of it was misunderstood, but the nub of the ensure for decades to come that this is a country not case was this: did the words complained about constitute 375 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 376 allegations of fact or comment? That does not matter, privilege, he might consider that if the courts find that because the argument and the campaign decided that there is no real connection between the litigants and the academic criticism should almost be free from the law jurisdiction, they can strike out the claim under the of libel. Spiliada principles, with which I am sure he is familiar. Once we have got over that concern, we need to think They essentially mean that that court is not the appropriate more carefully about whether learned societies, which forum in which to bring an action. are not corporate bodies or profit-making companies, should have a right to sue in damages. We no longer Mr MacShane rose— allow local authorities to sue for damage to their governing reputation. Thirty five years ago, I used to get injunctions, Mr Garnier: I have clearly puzzled the right hon. for goodness’ sake, on behalf of local authorities, as Gentleman so I will let him intervene. corporate bodies that felt that they had been defamed by the local paper. Looking back, it is ridiculous to Mr MacShane: The concept of forum non conveniens—I think that the Derbyshire county council case was not think that is the Latin phrase—is quite well known. An decided earlier, but it was not. For some decades now, it employee of the Russian state has been accused in this has not been possible for local authorities to sue in House by a Commons resolution of being linked to the defamation. I rather suspect that the royal college of murder of someone employed by a British firm. He this, that or the other should not be allowed to sue earns $600 a month but is hiring the most expensive either, although I must distinguish between that and the QC, lawyer and media company to sue a British citizen right of presidents and other officers of those associations in connection with a huge international scandal. This to bring a personal action, if they are defamed. week, the United Congress will pass its “Justice for Magnitsky Act”, banning Mr Karpov and 59 other Sir Peter Bottomley: There is one obvious problem named people. That has nothing to do with protecting with putting into statute things decided by judges and reputation; it is a cynical abuse of London’s reputation juries, which is common law. Would such a judgment be in which any lawyer can be brought to defend anybody possible were the Bill to become law? Would the judges— on any cause. juries would not be involved—be able to make a decision saying that a body corporate, whether charitable, non-profit or commercial, would be barred from taking out an Mr Garnier: I do not want to descend into the right action, even if it had more merit than the ludicrous one hon. Gentleman’s difficulties with lawyers and he will of the chiropractors against Simon Singh? have to sort out his own problems. If the courts find that the claimant referred to by the right hon. Gentleman has no proper basis for bringing a case in this country, Mr Garnier: It is probably unwise to give cocktail they will knock the case out. That applies to contract, advice across the Chamber, even to my hon. Friend. privacy, defamation and any other cause of action. I am looking for a proper assessment of the dangers and Sadiq Khan: Especially for free. damage that could be caused to our integrity as a jurisdiction by the use of our courts by overseas litigants. Mr Garnier: Yes, especially for free. I think such danger is wildly exaggerated and that the The Derbyshire county council case was a development ability of our courts to discipline those hopeless cases is of the common law. The judges decided that it was no underestimated, so I hope we can deal with the issue in longer appropriate for a local authority to bring an a calm and sensible way between now and Third Reading action for damages in defamation. As it happened, it in the other place. was against our right hon. Friend Lord Tebbit—but I I wish the Bill well as far as it goes. I hope that am sure that that had no influence on the judges. As I tonight’s proceedings are not controversial and that we understand it, nothing in the Bill has any bearing on do not have a Division, as that would be unnecessary whether the Court of Appeal or Supreme Court can and unhelpful. I look forward to listening to or reading reach a similar decision based on argument in respect of the debates in the other place, and trust that when the a learned society. Since we have a Bill and if we are to Bill is returned to this House—if it is returned—it will do that, however, we might as well think about it be improved. Surely that is what we expect of the between now and October or November—whenever the parliamentary process. This is not a politically controversial Bill moves to the other place—and deal with it in piece of legislation; it is deeply technical and, some legislation, not least because the issue is hot and strong would say, rather tedious. I wish the Bill well, however, following the Simon Singh case. and I repeat my congratulations to the Lord Chancellor The Bill has good intentions and contains some and Secretary of State for Justice and his two colleagues. good, defensible and sensible clauses. It also probably promises more than it can deliver, particularly in relation 6.22 pm to libel tourism. I disagree with the right hon. Member for Rotherham about its being a bad thing that people Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab): I, too, want to come to London to litigate. Nobody seemed to welcome the new Secretary of State, but I do not want complain the other day when Abramovich sued Berezovsky to forget the outgoing Secretary of State, the long-lasting, were in this jurisdiction. That demonstrates that in the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), United Kingdom people can find uncorrupted judges who ensured that the Government found time for the who will deal fairly with difficult cases. If foreigners Bill in their manifesto commitments. I am sure that all want to sue other foreigners in our courts, I see no Labour Members wish him well in his new roving role. problem with that. Before the right hon. Gentleman We hope that he ruffles feathers across the Government rises again to defame others under the cloak of absolute in his inimitable way. 377 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 378

[Paul Farrelly] I welcome the assurances that the new team have given on their open mind. I hope their lordships seize The Bill is welcome and has much to commend it, on that assurance, because the test of the Bill is whether including giving scientific and medical communities the abuses that hon. Members have highlighted can protection from abuse of our libel laws in order to stifle happen again. If they can, we need to return to the debate and proper investigation. When our libel laws nitty-gritty and ensure that they cannot. have been used and abused in the past, it was often by large corporations. The action brought by Tesco four 6.27 pm years ago against The Guardian was perhaps the starkest Simon Hughes: I join hon. Members in thanking the case in recent times of an inequality of arms. The main outgoing ministerial team and the former Secretary of ambition of the determinant litigant was not really to State for Justice for their collaboration and work; I settle, but expensively to bog down the newspaper and congratulate them on that. I also congratulate the new its journalists for as long as possible, as a warning to it team on their appointment, particularly the new Secretary and others in the future. of State, whom we very much welcome to his responsibilities. The Bill does not address corporation suing, and we As the shadow Secretary of State said, the Conservatives, have heard from the hon. and learned Member for the Liberal Democrats and the Labour party went into Harborough (Mr Garnier) about some of the anomalies the last election with a commitment to reform defamation regarding who can and cannot sue. I hope that those and libel law. That commitment was satisfactorily reaffirmed issues will be looked at afresh when the Bill proceeds to in the coalition agreement. There is consensus that the the other place. one thing we must deliver this Session is reformed libel The Bill does not include an explicit early strike-out law along the lines of the Bill. We have made good clause to ensure that actions with no merit, that are progress, but there is general agreement that we are not designed to chill and intimidate at maximum cost, do completely there yet. not proceed. The devil is in the detail of how the courts operate. It is therefore a shame that we do not have the I share exactly the view expressed by the new Secretary changes to the civil procedure rules that we need to give of State on why we need the Bill. We need to uphold the effect to many of the intentions of the Bill, as the Joint rights of freedom of expression, in particular for journalism, Committee on the draft Bill recommended. and to encourage good journalism, including good investigative journalism, in the process. Journalists should We have discussed conditional fee agreements. As I not be afraid of exposing what they need to expose in have said throughout years of trying to bring about the public interest. We also need to ensure that ordinary sensible libel reform, including via a long inquiry by the people are protected against poor and misrepresenting Culture, Media and Sport Committee, of which I am a journalists, who ruin reputations in such a way that they member, it was never intended that success fees should cannot be recovered. That is the balance we need to be abolished in their entirety. Given the behaviour of strike. some parts of our press, there is a real problem with access to justice, and reputations are unfairly ruined. I After the election, my noble Friend Lord Lester of hope their lordships and the House return to that. Herne Hill was pivotal in putting the matter on the As the Bill proceeds, we might have the benefit of agenda. Both Houses have worked hard through the Lord Justice Leveson’s detailed thoughts on other issues, Joint Committee to make progress, and the Government such as on a low-cost body or tribunal to settle libel picked up many, but not all, of its suggestions. My disputes quickly and more cheaply, and on how the Bill party has twice in the last year looked at the matter at might be amended to incentivise the use of such a our conferences: to ensure that we have methods for forum. resolving disputes—built into the legislation, if possible—so Finally, I should like to thank everyone who has that if, for example, untrue defamatory statements are helped to inform the debate and me, including the Libel propagated, they can be withdrawn without everything Reform Campaign, Index on Censorship, Sense about having to go through the courts; and to ensure that we Science and English PEN. I also thank a small group of enhance our freedom in this country, not reduce it. serious, superbly professional journalists and progressive There are three matters left to look at, as part of the lawyers who work at the coal face and who have given ongoing debate. One is whether the current processes in me and other hon. Members invaluable comments and the law on early strike-out are sufficient. I heard what insights. The lawyers include Hugh Tomlinson and Heather the Minister said, but that remains an issue. We want to Rogers QC, Tamsin Allen of Bindmans LLP, Mark be able to get rid of nonsense cases—our hon. Friend Thomson of Atkins Thomson, Robin Shaw of Davenport the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) Lyons, and Michael Nathanson of Thrings, who represents made the case powerfully—to stop them clogging up booksellers. The journalists who have been helpful to the courts. We need to see whether we have adequate me include David Leigh of The Guardian, and my former processes to do that. Secondly, we need to ensure that colleague on The Observer—the doyen of investigative the public interest defence works appropriately. That is journalism, if I might call him that—the legendary probably the most difficult and controversial area to get Michael Gillard Senior, who has done so much to right. I am grateful that Ministers have said that they advance the cause of responsible investigative journalism are willing to look broadly at the issues again. Lastly, in this country over many years. there is the controversial question of whether the law I also thank the ministerial team for the way in which should protect only individuals or also corporations, the debate has been conducted, my hon. Friend the Member and, if so, how. I have no doubt that we shall return to for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) and my right that issue. hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), and We now have some time after Third Reading before the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) for all the Bill goes to the Lords. We will engage with people in the work he put into the Bill. the other place. We need to pause to ensure that when 379 Defamation Bill12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Defamation Bill 380

Lord Justice Leveson reports we do not confuse things 6.34 pm in taking the Bill to the statute book, while at the same time picking up all the proposals he makes. Many Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): It was the late people have helped us in the campaign to get libel law Enoch Powell who was first quoted in The Guardian,in reformed, not least the Libel Reform Campaign. We December 1984, as saying: thank them and look forward to continuing to work “For a politician to complain about the press is like a ship’s with them. The work is not completed, but a lot of good captain complaining about the sea.” work has been done and there is general good will about I hope that all these assurances can be given in the other ensuring that, for the first time in a generation, we bring place. My concern is that the freedom of the press the libel laws up to date for a modern Britain, in a should be maintained and not curtailed, but one would modern world of communication, but where freedom hope that alongside that there was a recognition by the of speech remains something of which we can be justifiably press that with that freedom comes responsibility. We proud. have to acknowledge that the curse of Murdoch has dumbed down British journalism over the past four 6.31 pm decades, to the extent that Private Eye is now more accurate and reliable than many newspapers. Sir Peter Bottomley: I will not follow what the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) said about I should declare an interest. For a few weeks in 1973 the Sergei Magnitsky case, except to say that it would be I was a sub-editor on The Sun, then newly acquired by shocking if the British libel courts are used by the Murdoch and pre-page 3, and that was between jobs as Klyuev organised crime group to try to get at those who a sub-editor on the former London Evening News and are trying to expose the truth and get justice for a the London Evening Standard. I come from a background person who was murdered. of journalistic training where standards were high. In the National Council for the Training of Journalists The person who has not been mentioned much in our and in good old-fashioned newsgathering there were debates is a man called William Hone, who is the very high standard. Some 44 years ago I was editor of subject of a great book called “The Laughter of Triumph” the Maldon and Burnham Standard, a weekly newspaper by Ben Wilson. William Hone was taken to court for in Essex, and before that I was secretary of the north criminal libel on a number of occasions. He was disobliging Essex branch of the National Union of Journalists. I about Lord Liverpool as Prime Minister, he attacked mention that because there is no doubt in my mind that the Home Secretary, who led for 10 repressive years in journalism is not as strong or as good as it used to be, government, he was disobliging about someone whom but that is still no excuse for legislation that could be he described as a “fat, lascivious toad”—I will not go interpreted as an attack on the free press. I sincerely into that—and he was rude about the Lord Chief Justice. hope that will not be the case. Juries would not convict William Hone. We are now disposing of juries in virtually all cases of defamation Those of us who enter public life must accept that we or libel that get heard in the courts. I fear that we may will be attacked and criticised. I do not think that any of find that advances in law in this area will no longer us object to that, provided that we know who is doing come from juries and judges, but will be left to the vagaries the attacking and criticising and that the attacks and of the parliamentary timetable, which is a danger. I would criticisms are valid or at least have some merit. Madam therefore like to hear from the Government—perhaps Deputy Speaker, you might be aware that last Wednesday with all-party agreement—that they will return to the I raised a point of order with Mr Speaker about a false issue for legislative scrutiny five years after the Bill Twitter account that had been set up to impersonate becomes an Act. me. It was used by someone with a sick, evil and warped mind to make a range of vile comments, such as the I believe that the press do not just have the right to be inference that I was a paedophile or had paedophile right; I believe they have the right to be wrong. There is tendencies, which is not very pleasant. I was very grateful the question of what they do when they have got it for Mr Speaker’s observation that that was unacceptable wrong. Just saying, “Only if you can prove something in behaviour and a form of harassment. I am therefore advance,” means that we will lose most things. pleased that the Bill includes measures that—I hope—will I end with this bit of advice for those who find that an deal with social media. investigative journalist has written an attack on something When I made my point of order, I said that the for which they are responsible. I was a junior Minister Twitter account had to be viewed in the context of three for six years, and whenever I spotted a report by an years of dirty tricks against me in Colchester by three investigative journalist—including some by Paul Foot—I immature young men. That included a spoof YouTube would ask my Department to find out the answers to video of me, a snooper photograph and letters to various questions that would test whether the accusations newspapers with false names and addresses. With regard had foundation. When I discovered that they had, I to the latter, I have written to Lord Justice Leveson to would take action. However, in one case when I discovered suggest that one of his recommendations should be that the accusations had no foundation, I notified that, when a newspaper has been shown to have published Paul Foot, who told me that it was the first time in the in good faith a letter that is subsequently found out to whole of his career as an investigative journalist that have come from someone who gave a fictitious name someone in authority had come back to him with the and address, the person who has been wronged, as I information that had been sought and asked whether have been on several occasions, should be given not further inquiries ought to be made. The response to only an apology by the newspaper, but a right of reply. attacks in the press is to find out whether they are In fairness, on those occasions when I have been able justified, not to try to defend oneself whatever the to take the issue up, I have been given the opportunity truth. to reply. 381 Defamation Bill 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 382

[Sir Bob Russell] Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards As a former editor of a weekly newspaper, I argue that the onus is on the newspaper to establish the authenticity of the person who has written the letter. When an 6.40 pm attack is made on a public figure, such as an MP or the John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) chairman of a football club, there is an even greater (LD): I beg to move, onus on the newspaper to check that the person exists. I That Ms Kathryn Hudson be appointed Parliamentary have no problem with genuine people having genuine Commissioner for Standards on the terms of the Report of the concerns. That is something I hope Lord Justice Leveson House of Commons Commission, HC 539, dated 17 July 2012. will include in his recommendations— The motion is in my name and that of other House of Commons commissioners and of the right hon. Member Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. I for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), the Chair of the Standards have allowed the hon. Gentleman to make his case, but and Privileges Committee. we are supposed to be debating Third Reading of the In 2003, the House decided that the office of Defamation Bill. References to the Lord Leveson inquiry Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards should be may be made, but the hon. Gentleman needs to come held for a non-renewable term of five years. The back to discussing the Bill; he should focus specifically appointment of the current commissioner, John Lyon, on that. comes to an end on 31 December, and the House therefore needs to appoint a new commissioner. Sir Bob Russell: I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, that defamation takes many forms, and when it is in the It is appropriate to begin by expressing the House of printed form, I think the person who has been defamed Commons Commission’s appreciation of the work should have the right of reply. In my case, the author of undertaken by John Lyon since his appointment. He all the things I referred to is a gentleman called Darius inquired into an unprecedented number of allegations Laws, who is a member of another political party. against Members at a time when the reputation of the House was being called into question. He helped to Question put and agreed to restore confidence in Members and in the institutions Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. of the House. He will also be remembered for bringing up to date the procedures for the commissioner’s inquiries and, in particular, for the greater transparency he introduced, with the House’s agreement, by publishing information about inquiries that were not reported formally to the Committee on Standards and Privileges. I am sure the House will wish to join me in expressing our gratitude for all the work he did in this role. There has been a thorough and rigorous recruitment process using standards equivalent to those of the Commissioner for Public Appointments. This has involved the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind) and the right hon. Member for Rother Valley, the Chair of the Committee on Standards and Privileges, as well as members of the House of Commons Commission and an independent adviser. All the details are in the report that sets out the Commission’s nomination. I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those who took part in the selection process, particularly Judith Alderton, who acted as the independent assessor. It is therefore with confidence that I commend this nomination to the House. Kathryn Hudson is currently the deputy parliamentary and health ombudsman and was previously the national director of social care at the Department of Health. The House of Commons Commission is confident that she has the necessary experience, clear thinking and personal authority for the role, and that she will bring to it the independence, discretion, and strength of character required to ensure that the system of parliamentary self-regulation continues to work effectively. Should the House approve the nomination, Ms Hudson’s appointment will commence at the beginning of 2013. The work load of the commissioner has already declined somewhat with the transfer of responsibility for Members’ pay and expenses elsewhere, and it is anticipated that Ms Hudson will generally work on a half-time basis—rather less than the basis on which John Lyon was originally appointed. I stress that the new commissioner will be 383 Parliamentary Commissioner for 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Parliamentary Commissioner for 384 Standards Standards able to increase her commitment if the work demands advising Members on the code and the rules of conduct, it. She will, I am sure, fulfil the high standards set by her guiding new Members on their responsibilities and conduct, predecessors, so I commend this nomination to the House. investigating and reporting on complaints, and ensuring transparency through the operation of the Register of 6.43 pm Members’ Financial Interests and the other registers. As the shadow Leader predicted, I am happy to add my Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): I thank the hon. support to the recommendation that the House should Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross agree to the motion providing for the appointment of (John Thurso) for the way in which he began our Kathryn Hudson to this role, and I wish her well. debate, and I echo the sentiment and reinforce the content of his comments. Like him, I want to pay Ms Hudson comes to the role with valuable experience tribute to the outgoing Parliamentary Commissioner of investigative processes, the capacity to make careful for Standards, John Lyon, who was the fourth commissioner judgments in sensitive cases, and an ability to provide in post since January 2008. He sought to bring greater advice and support for Members. As the shadow Leader transparency to the role to help improve public confidence said, I know and appreciate only too well the way in in this House. He has served the House with distinction which the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman for the past five years, during what was—as the hon. has performed similar functions in relation to equally Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross has sensitive processes. disclosed—a difficult period. As the shadow Leader also said, I became a member The role of the Parliamentary Commissioner for of the House of Commons Commission only a week ago, Standards was created following the first report of the and therefore played no direct part in the recommendation Committee on Standards in Public Life. It has existed before the House today. I thank the selection board, the for more than 16 years, and is important in retaining right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) and public confidence in the House. As well as maintaining his colleagues, and the Commission for their work. and monitoring the Register of Members’ Financial I am pleased to note that, in line with other new Interests, the commissioner advises Members on the public appointments, the Commission has been able to registration of financial interests and investigates complaints set a shorter working week and a salary that reflects from other Members and the public about failures to that. However, it has done so with the understanding register or otherwise abide by the code of conduct—an that the work load will vary from time to time, and it important and challenging role. will not impose a restriction on the days per week that As we were told by the hon. Member for Caithness, the commissioner considers necessary. Sutherland and Easter Ross, there was a rigorous process Let me take this opportunity to thank the outgoing of selection for John Lyons’s successor. Labour Members commissioner, John Lyon, who inquired into many are confident that that process has been thorough and allegations, and—as was pointed out by the hon. Member exhaustive. A number of excellent candidates were for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross—did so in interviewed by a board of selectors made up of the circumstances of an unprecedented level of focus on distinguished Members, Officers of the House and external the House of Commons as a result of the expenses experts. The board brought two candidates back for a scandal. Mr Lyon undertook that difficult role with a final interview, and then recommended Kathryn Hudson robust but fair approach, making a very important to the House of Commons Commission. Although the contribution to the work of restoring confidence in the current Leader of the House was not involved in the House and its Members. These cases are not the sole process, I know that he will have full confidence in the marker of his tenure. He led a review of the code of judgment of his predecessor, who I see is present and conduct and rules, and oversaw the introduction of who, of course, was involved. It seems likely that he will greater transparency on inquiries that were not formally try to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I reported to the Standards and Privileges Committee. I am sure that he will have something to say to the House. would also like to put on record my thanks to the staff I am sure the former Leader of the House would of the House who continue to support the commissioner agree that the newly proposed commissioner has extensive in delivering standards, and to the Chairman of the experience across the public and charitable sectors, and Standards and Privileges Committee for his work. is currently the deputy Parliamentary and Health Service I reiterate my thanks to Mr Lyon for his work during Ombudsman. I suspect that the current Leader of the what was undoubtedly a challenging time. We should House came across her when he was in his previous job, always be appreciative of those who give time and The Commission is confident that she will carry out her service to the House. I hope that the House will endorse proposed new role with energy, integrity and understanding, the motion. On that basis, I look forward to welcoming and in doing so she will have the Opposition’s full Kathryn Hudson to her new role from January 2013. support. 6.50 pm 6.47 pm Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): I also support The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew the motion to appoint Kathryn Hudson as the next Lansley): I thank the hon. Member for Caithness, Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. As Chair Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) for presenting of the Standards and Privileges Committee, I was involved the motion, which I too support. in the appointment process both at interview stage and As we heard from the shadow Leader of the House, in briefing the Commission. We were extremely fortunate the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), since 1995 in having two highly able and suitable candidates, of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards has whom Kathryn Hudson was one. I believe her career played an important role in the work of the House, gives her the investigative skills and, perhaps even more 385 Parliamentary Commissioner for 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Parliamentary Commissioner for 386 Standards Standards [Mr Kevin Barron] “Of the 12 complaints I resolved this year, almost 60% were about conduct in previous Parliaments. All of those concerning importantly, the sense of perspective required. I am conduct in this Parliament related to parliamentary matters such therefore delighted to put my name to the motion as registration, declaration and the use of stationery, none of which suggested that those Members had exploited the House for approving her appointment. any private or personal benefit. I also want to pay tribute to the outgoing commissioner, Nevertheless, the reputation of the House remains at risk. John Lyon. When a similar motion was moved on Trust once lost will take time and a consistent and continued 15 November 2007, the hon. Member for North Devon record of maintaining high standards of conduct before it can be (Nick Harvey) paid tribute to the then outgoing restored. That is true of any national institution. It is particularly commissioner, Sir Philip Mawer, and it was noted that true of the House. As the expenses crisis showed, unless apparently minor breaches of the rules of conduct are challenged and “John Lyon will inherit a standards system that is in much finer remedied, they can all too easily become endemic and inflamed fettle than that which awaited his predecessor in February 2002.”— and so seriously damage the reputation of the House”. [Official Report, 15 November 2007; Vol. 467, c. 862.] When we come here, as elected Members, we want to As we all know, that improvement was not enough to concentrate on what we were elected to do: serve our stop the expenses scandal, which will shape our memories constituents and work in the national interest. We do of the previous Parliament. As John Lyon noted in the not stand for election so that we can fill in forms about introduction to his most recent annual report, it has registration or respond to the commissioner’s letters. I been a “tumultuous five years”. acknowledge that all that can appear an irritating distraction Over that time, John produced about 60 complaints- from more urgent duties or even a diversion of effort related memoranda for the Committee and rectified into unnecessary bureaucracy.However, the last Parliament about 50 cases. The House’s reputation may have taken should have taught us that we cannot afford to get this a battering in the press, but the commissioner’s fairness wrong, individually or collectively. The rules in the code and integrity meant he never became part of that story. of conduct are not arbitrary. We agree them as Members John also worked hard to improve the system, both in of this House, and we should uphold them and be seen making recommendations for a new code and in smaller to uphold them. For the system to be effective, we need changes, such as revising and consolidating information a strong, fair commissioner, whose own integrity is on the procedure for investigations, to make it more beyond doubt. We have been fortunate to have that in useful. His judgment has been very sound. There was the previous commissioners, and I look forward to the some concern that making more information available new commissioner continuing that tradition. about complaints under investigation would lead to a media feeding frenzy; in fact, doing that has stopped 6.56 pm damaging speculation when people were known to be under investigation. Sir George Young (North West Hampshire) (Con): Investigations into allegations of misconduct are only May I add a brief footnote to these exchanges and, in so part of the commissioner’s role. The Registrar of Members’ doing, speak for the first time for 22 years from the Financial Interests is part of his office, and the commissioner Government Back Benches? May I place on the record and the registrar consider matters relating to journalists, my congratulations to my right hon. Friend the Leader Members’ secretaries and research assistants, and all-party of the House and his Deputy for getting the two best groups. They have done a great deal to raise awareness jobs in the Government? They have the necessary qualities of registration requirements and to keep the way in of respect and affection for the House to enable them to which the rules work under review. discharge their duties, and they will be assisted by an outstanding private office and the best Parliamentary Over the last five years, the commissioner has had to Private Secretary in the business. I wish them well in deal with many investigations, which have been thorough navigating the Government’s legislative programme through and impartial. While there has been criticism of the the House. Committee and the House for their decisions in some of the cases, I am not aware of any case where the investigation Paragraphs 4 and 5 of the report refer to John Lyon. has been plausibly criticised because the commissioner I worked with John Lyon for his first two years in the was biased or missed obvious lines of inquiry. post, when I chaired the Standards and Privileges Committee, and I endorse every word in paragraph 5. I Colleagues have sometimes complained about the pay tribute to his discretion, and one of his predecessors length of time particular investigations take, but the had difficulties on that front. He was meticulous in his commissioner’s willingness to take as long as necessary dealings with the press, and I commend his integrity to investigate a complaint is one of the strengths of the and thoroughness, and the clarity with which he wrote system. Complaints are properly investigated by a truly his reports. As we have heard, he was commissioner at a independent figure, whose conclusions command respect. time of unparalleled difficulties for the House, but he Some complaints may well be politically motivated. never faltered. I know that he will want to clear his in- That is not a reason for dismissing them, however, if tray to the extent that he can before he departs from they meet the conditions required for investigation. If office, and we wish him well in his retirement. We are all the commissioner considers there may be grounds for a grateful to the selection board for sifting the candidates. complaint, it is far better for the Member complained I was very impressed by Kathryn Hudson’s quiet authority of, and for Parliament as a whole, to have the matter when she was interviewed by the Commission. She has properly investigated than to have to deal with allegations absolutely the right background and I wish her well. of a whitewash or claims that a complaint was dismissed Finally, paragraph 12 deals with the number of days. for political reasons. This job is demand-led, in that the in-tray is determined The commissioner’s most recent annual report suggests by the propensity of Members of Parliament to misbehave that a corner has been turned. He stated: and the propensity of members of the public to complain 387 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Business without Debate 388 about it. Neither of those things can be forecast. I think PUBLIC BODIES it is right to start where we have started and then raise That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of the Crown Court the work load if necessary. I know that the incoming Rule Committee and Magistrates’ Courts Rule Committee) Order commissioner will be reassured by the commitment 2012, which was laid before this House on 17 May, be approved. from the Commission to give the resources that are That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of Environment Protection necessary should the work load, for whatever reason, Advisory Committees) Order 2012, which was laid before this increase. With those remarks, I join others in commending House on 21 May, be approved. the motion. That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of Regional and Local Fisheries Advisory Committees) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 21 May, be approved. 6.58 pm NORTHERN IRELAND Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): I shall be brief, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome the appointment of That the draft Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Devolution of the new commissioner. As the last person to be investigated Policing and Justice Functions) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 11 June, be approved.—(Mr Syms.) by John Lyon, I am more than willing to meet the new commissioner to share that experience. I hope that she Question agreed to. will bring proportionality, pragmatism, expediency, common Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing sense, and a rationale of fairness and natural justice. I Order No. 118(6)), hope that she will consider the impact that the inquiries have on MPs, their families and their staff. Lastly, SOCIAL SECURITY motivation has to be part of that inquiry, as it is an That the draft Jobseeker’s Allowance (Sanctions) (Amendment) important part of it; in my case, the investigation stemmed Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 9 July, be from a complaint from my Tory opponent’s lodger. approved.—(Mr Syms.) Question put and agreed to. The House divided: Ayes 256, Noes 177. Division No. 67] [7 pm Business without Debate AYES Adams, Nigel Carswell, Mr Douglas Afriyie, Adam Cash, Mr William Aldous, Peter Chishti, Rehman EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Andrew, Stuart Clark, rh Greg Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Coffey, Dr Thérèse Order No. 119(11)), Bacon, Mr Richard Collins, Damian Baker, Steve Cox, Mr Geoffrey Baldry, Sir Tony Crouch, Tracey EU MORTGAGES DIRECTIVE Baldwin, Harriett Davey, rh Mr Edward That this House takes note of European Union Document No. Barclay, Stephen Davies, Glyn 8680/11 and Addenda 1 to 4, relating to a draft Directive of the Baron, Mr John de Bois, Nick European Parliament and of the Council on credit agreements Barwell, Gavin Dinenage, Caroline relating to residential property; notes the success that the UK has Bebb, Guto Djanogly, Mr Jonathan achieved against its key negotiating priorities in Council negotiations Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen on this Directive and that the Government recognises the importance Bellingham, Mr Henry Doyle-Price, Jackie of a sustainable mortgage market to support a stable housing Benyon, Richard Drax, Richard market; and supports the Government’s view that the proposed Beresford, Sir Paul Duddridge, James Directive should recognise differences that exist between national Berry, Jake Duncan, rh Mr Alan mortgage markets.—(Mr Syms.) Bingham, Andrew Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Question agreed to. Blackman, Bob Dunne, Mr Philip Blackwood, Nicola Ellison, Jane Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellwood, Mr Tobias DELEGATED LEGISLATION Bone, Mr Peter Elphicke, Charlie Bottomley, Sir Peter Eustice, George Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With the Brady, Mr Graham Evans, Graham leave of the House, we shall take motions 5 to 10 Brake, rh Tom Evans, Jonathan Bray, Angie Evennett, Mr David together. Brazier, Mr Julian Fabricant, Michael Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Bridgen, Andrew Fallon, rh Michael Order No. 118(6)), Brine, Steve Featherstone, Lynne Brooke, Annette Field, Mark Browne, Mr Jeremy Fox,rhDrLiam PUBLIC BODIES Bruce, Fiona Francois, rh Mr Mark That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of Her Majesty’s Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Freeman, George Inspectorate of Courts Administration and the Public Guardian Buckland, Mr Robert Freer, Mike Board) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 10 May, Burley, Mr Aidan Fullbrook, Lorraine be approved. Burns, rh Mr Simon Gale, Sir Roger Burrowes, Mr David Garnier, Mark DEBT MANAGEMENT AND RELIEF Burt, Lorely Gauke, Mr David That the draft Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 Byles, Dan George, Andrew (Consequential Amendments) Order 2012, which was laid before Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Gibb, Mr Nick this House on 21 June, be approved. Carmichael, Neil Gilbert, Stephen 389 Business without Debate12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Business without Debate 390

Glen, John McCartney, Karl Timpson, Mr Edward Whittaker, Craig Goodwill, Mr Robert McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Tomlinson, Justin Wiggin, Bill Gove, rh Michael McPartland, Stephen Truss, Elizabeth Williams, Mr Mark Graham, Richard Menzies, Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Grant, Mrs Helen Metcalfe, Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williams, Stephen Gray, Mr James Mills, Nigel Uppal, Paul Williamson, Gavin Grayling, rh Chris Milton, Anne Vaizey, Mr Edward Willott, Jenny Green, rh Damian Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh Wilson, Mr Rob Greening, rh Justine Moore, rh Michael Vickers, Martin Wright, Jeremy Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mordaunt, Penny Walker, Mr Robin Wright, Simon Griffiths, Andrew Morgan, Nicky Walter, Mr Robert Young, rh Sir George Gummer, Ben Morris, David Watkinson, Angela Zahawi, Nadhim Gyimah, Mr Sam Morris, James Webb, Steve Tellers for the Ayes: Halfon, Robert Mosley, Stephen Wheeler, Heather Karen Bradley and Hames, Duncan Mowat, David White, Chris Mr Robert Syms Hammond, Stephen Mulholland, Greg Hancock, Matthew Mundell, rh David Hands, Greg Munt, Tessa NOES Harper, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Abbott, Ms Diane Durkan, Mark Harrington, Richard Neill, Robert Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Eagle, Ms Angela Harris, Rebecca Newmark, Mr Brooks Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Edwards, Jonathan Hart, Simon Norman, Jesse Alexander, Heidi Efford, Clive Heald, Oliver Nuttall, Mr David Ali, Rushanara Esterson, Bill Heath, Mr David Offord, Dr Matthew Allen, Mr Graham Evans, Chris Hemming, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Ashworth, Jonathan Farrelly, Paul Henderson, Gordon Opperman, Guy Bailey, Mr Adrian Fitzpatrick, Jim Hendry, Charles Ottaway, Richard Bain, Mr William Flello, Robert Herbert, rh Nick Parish, Neil Banks, Gordon Fovargue, Yvonne Hinds, Damian Patel, Priti Barron, rh Mr Kevin Gapes, Mike Hoban, Mr Mark Pawsey, Mark Beckett, rh Margaret Gardiner, Barry Hollobone, Mr Philip Percy, Andrew Begg, Dame Anne Glass, Pat Hopkins, Kris Perry, Claire Benn, rh Hilary Glindon, Mrs Mary Horwood, Martin Phillips, Stephen Benton, Mr Joe Goggins, rh Paul Howarth, Mr Gerald Pickles, rh Mr Eric Betts, Mr Clive Goodman, Helen Howell, John Pincher, Christopher Blears, rh Hazel Greatrex, Tom Hughes, rh Simon Poulter, Dr Daniel Blomfield, Paul Green, Kate Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Pugh, John Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greenwood, Lilian Huppert, Dr Julian Randall, rh Mr John Brennan, Kevin Griffith, Nia James, Margot Reckless, Mark Brown, Lyn Gwynne, Andrew Javid, Sajid Redwood, rh Mr John Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr David Jenkin, Mr Bernard Reid, Mr Alan Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Fabian Johnson, Gareth Robertson, Mr Laurence Burden, Richard Hanson, rh Mr David Johnson, Joseph Rogerson, Dan Campbell, Mr Alan Harris, Mr Tom Jones, Andrew Rudd, Amber Campbell, Mr Gregory Healey, rh John Jones, Mr Marcus Ruffley, Mr David Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hepburn, Mr Stephen Kawczynski, Daniel Russell, Sir Bob Coaker, Vernon Hillier, Meg Kelly, Chris Rutley, David Coffey, Ann Hilling, Julie Kirby, Simon Sandys, Laura Connarty, Michael Hodge, rh Margaret Knight, rh Mr Greg Scott, Mr Lee Corbyn, Jeremy Hopkins, Kelvin Kwarteng, Kwasi Selous, Andrew Crausby, Mr David Howarth, rh Mr George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Shapps, rh Grant Creagh, Mary Hunt, Tristram Lamb, Norman Sharma, Alok Creasy, Stella Irranca-Davies, Huw Lancaster, Mark Shelbrooke, Alec Cruddas, Jon Jamieson, Cathy Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Simmonds, Mark Cryer, John Jarvis, Dan Latham, Pauline Skidmore, Chris Cunningham, Alex Johnson, Diana Leadsom, Andrea Smith, Miss Chloe Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Graham Lee, Dr Phillip Smith, Henry Cunningham, Sir Tony Jones, Helen Lefroy, Jeremy Smith, Julian Curran, Margaret Jones, Mr Kevan Leigh, Mr Edward Smith, Sir Robert Danczuk, Simon Jones, Susan Elan Leslie, Charlotte Soubry, Anna Darling, rh Mr Alistair Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline David, Wayne Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Lewis, Dr Julian Spencer, Mr Mark Davidson, Mr Ian Keeley, Barbara Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Stanley, rh Sir John Davies, Geraint Kendall, Liz Lidington, rh Mr David Stevenson, John De Piero, Gloria Khan, rh Sadiq Lilley, rh Mr Peter Stewart, Bob Denham, rh Mr John Lammy, rh Mr David Lloyd, Stephen Stewart, Iain Dobbin, Jim Lavery, Ian Lord, Jonathan Stride, Mel Docherty, Thomas Leslie, Chris Luff, Peter Stuart, Mr Graham Doran, Mr Frank Lewis, Mr Ivan Lumley, Karen Sturdy, Julian Dowd, Jim Long, Naomi Macleod, Mary Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Caroline Maynard, Paul Swinson, Jo Dromey, Jack Lucas, Ian McCartney, Jason Thurso, John Dugher, Michael MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan 391 Business without Debate 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 392

MacShane, rh Mr Denis Ritchie, Ms Margaret Gloucestershire Libraries Malhotra, Seema Robertson, Angus Mann, John Robertson, John Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House McCann, Mr Michael Robinson, Mr Geoffrey do now adjourn.—(Mr Syms.) McCarthy, Kerry Roy, Mr Frank McClymont, Gregg Ruane, Chris McDonagh, Siobhain Ruddock, rh Dame Joan 7.14 pm McDonnell, John Sarwar, Anas Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): This debate McFadden, rh Mr Pat Sharma, Mr Virendra has turned out to be extremely topical. In the past week, McGovern, Jim Sheridan, Jim the importance of libraries has been highlighted by McKechin, Ann Skinner, Mr Dennis children’s laureate Julia Donaldson, author of “The McKinnell, Catherine Slaughter, Mr Andy Mearns, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Gruffalo” and “The Snail and the Whale”, which I Michael, rh Alun Smith, Owen think is a masterpiece of children’s literature. I must Miliband, rh David Spellar, rh Mr John have read it at least 50 times with my kids and I never Miller, Andrew Straw, rh Mr Jack stopped enjoying it. Ms Donaldson says that Moon, Mrs Madeleine Stuart, Ms Gisela “Libraries…provide a wonderful opportunity for adults and Morden, Jessica Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry children to browse, borrow and engage with books, but they are Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Tami, Mark also great community centres.” Morris, Grahame M. Thomas, Mr Gareth She is right, of course. Libraries are community hubs (Easington) Timms, rh Stephen and noticeboards, providing sources of information as Murray, Ian Turner, Karl well as pleasure and learning. They are vital in communities Nandy, Lisa Umunna, Mr Chuka that face particular challenges, where free access to Nash, Pamela Vaz, Valerie O’Donnell, Fiona Watson, Mr Tom books is not some middle-class luxury, but an essential Onwurah, Chi Watts, Mr Dave local service—and not simply access to books, but Osborne, Sandra Whitehead, Dr Alan access to quiet work space, including for homework, Pearce, Teresa Williamson, Chris when sometimes that is impossible to find at home. In Phillipson, Bridget Wilson, Phil the internet age, modern libraries increasingly provide Pound, Stephen Winterton, rh Ms Rosie access to the net for those who cannot easily afford the Qureshi, Yasmin Wishart, Pete latest home PC, thus combating both digital and social Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wright, David exclusion. Reed, Mr Jamie Wright, Mr Iain Reeves, Rachel Hesters Way is one such community in my constituency. Reynolds, Emma Tellers for the Noes: It belies Cheltenham’s stereotypical image as a picture- Reynolds, Jonathan Tom Blenkinsop and perfect, universally affluent, regency resort town. Three Riordan, Mrs Linda Nic Dakin of the six worst-scoring neighbourhoods in Cheltenham, according to the Government’s multiple indices of deprivation, are in Hesters Way, and all three are in the Question accordingly agreed to. bottom 17% of neighbourhoods nationwide. According to one of those indices, educational outcomes, two of Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With the those neighbourhoods are in the bottom 10% in the leave of the House, we shall take motions 12 and 13 country. Hesters Way’s schools, both the primary schools together. and the stunning new All Saints academy, are benefiting Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing significantly from the pupil premium. I am not citing Order No. 118(6)), those statistics to embarrass anyone in Hesters Way, which boasts many community success stories, not least FAMILY LAW in education now at both primary and secondary levels. That the draft Child Support Maintenance Calculation Regulations I am doing it simply to underline the fact that it is a part 2012, which were laid before this House on 2 July, be approved. of Cheltenham where many people have to work very That the draft Child Support Maintenance (Changes to Basic hard to make ends meet and where the luxury of buying Rate and Minimum Amount of Liability) Regulations 2012, a new computer or splashing out on new books in the which were laid before this House on 2 July, be approved.— beautiful branch of Waterstones in town is not always (Mr Syms.) possible. Question agreed to. In short, Hesters Way is an area that needs a library, and given that the source for the statistics I have cited is the county council’s own dataset, it should have known that, too; yet the rather opaque process followed in Gloucestershire suggested that Hesters Way’s was one of those libraries that was surplus to county council requirements. At this point, I should say that I understand the Conservative administration’s genuine problems. I accept the need to reduce the deficit at national level and it was inevitable that local government would have to play a part in that. We may have argued in this place about the pace and scale of the cuts, but that was not Gloucestershire county council’s responsibility. Tough decisions would have been necessary, whatever the political flavour of the administration. All the same, recent figures from the Chartered Institute of Library and 393 Gloucestershire Libraries12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Gloucestershire Libraries 394

[Martin Horwood] 16 November 2011, His Honour Judge McKenna ruled that Gloucestershire county council’s plans for our public Information Professionals, which gathered survey responses library service were unlawful on equalities grounds, the from 93 library authorities, highlight the scope for council having failed to consider properly the impact of different approaches, given the political will. its proposals on disadvantaged groups—just as Friends According to the institute’s survey, some English of Gloucestershire Libraries and many others had pointed authorities reported increases in expenditure; eight reported out. reductions in revenue expenditure of 2% or less; 45 reported Councillor Hawthorne, for whom I have a great deal reductions of between 2% and 10%; 25 reported cuts of of time in other respects, dismissed the ruling as being at least 10%; and two reported cuts of more than 20%. “tripped up on a technical point”. The scope for political decision makers to follow different I have to disagree with his conclusion very, very profoundly. paths is clear. I am not sure whether Gloucestershire I think that it was a damning judgment that could have was among those that responded to the survey, but if it been avoided if the county council had been prepared was, we would have been at the very top of that league to listen to dissenting voices. table. Politicians often trade statistics, but let me quote from a letter that John Holland, the previous assistant To be kind to the county administration for a moment, head of Gloucestershire’s libraries and information service, the outcome in Hesters Way is good. The forced rethink sent both to the leader of Gloucestershire county council, has resulted in the library staying open in its current Councillor Mark Hawthorne, and to the Minister. He premises as part of the county network, albeit with wrote: reduced hours, which is a tremendous community victory. Friends of Gloucestershire Libraries, however, remains “Whilst the need to make savings and reduce services is clear, deeply concerned, and reports that under the redrawn the proposed cuts to the library service are damaging and disproportionate. The library service is a high profile cost-effective plans, seven libraries still face closure. Public library service representing only 1.45% of the county council budget, yet services will be withdrawn from those areas, and local loans over 3.3 million books and other media and has nearly communities will be offered the chance to run and fund 3 million visits from users a year. The proposed cuts reduce the their own library facilities as volunteers. Those facilities current library service budget by 43%, a far greater cut than the will not be part of the statutory public library network. overall county council target of 28%.” Friends of Gloucestershire Libraries has raised with Even allowing for annual variations in the book fund, me, and with the Minister on a number of occasions, an Gloucestershire is still at the very top end of the cuts issue that directly concerns him: the duty of the Secretary being made by library authorities in England. of State under the Public Libraries and Museums Act In Cheltenham, the suggestion was that Hesters Way 1964 to library would close as a county library and that the “superintend, and promote the improvement of, the public library community might take it over, with residual support of service provided by local authorities in England and Wales, and some £20,000 per annum from the county council. to secure the proper discharge by local authorities of the functions Hesters Way is also, for all the reasons that I have in relation to libraries conferred on them as authorities by or under this Act”. mentioned, an area in which volunteers are not as easy to come by as they are in more affluent areas. In practice, what was meant by “the community” was the Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I am grateful for the local neighbourhood project, which was initiated and opportunity to point out that we have similar issues supported by Cheltenham borough council. The plan about libraries in my constituency of Stroud. For example, was far from ideal; it would have resulted in the loss of we have a very well run community library in Painswick, the library’s existing premises; and, most of all, it risked which is well supported and, indeed, has the support of the loss of professional librarians—a nationwide issue the county council. It is a great success story, so will my highlighted by the institute. An issue that was never hon. Friend join me in congratulating the people of resolved was the risk that non-public libraries would Painswick on making such a successful effort? not pay public lending rights, thus reducing the income to authors as well. Martin Horwood: I am not familiar with the situation I pay tribute to all those who supported a tremendous in Painswick, so I had better not venture into that. I campaign to save Hesters Way library as a public library, remind the hon. Gentleman of the provisions from the including the outstanding county councillor, Suzanne 1964 Act that I read out. It is the duty of the Secretary Williams, Councillors Charmian Shepherd and Mike of State to Skinner, and Chris Pallet and Nancy Graham. Most of “superintend, and promote the improvement of, the public library all, I pay tribute to a non-party political voluntary service provided by local authorities in England and Wales, and campaign group, Friends of Gloucestershire Libraries, to secure the proper discharge by local authorities of the functions in relation to libraries conferred on them as authorities by or which surpassed all our efforts in its dogged campaign under this Act”. to defend Gloucestershire’s library services, and gathered 13,000 petition signatures and took the battle all the Those local authority duties include the provision of a way to the High Court. “comprehensive and efficient library service for all persons desiring to make use thereof”. Again and again, Friends of Gloucestershire Libraries highlighted the impact of the cuts, particularly the The Minister is familiar with those powers, as he drew careless way in which the strategy seemed to have been attention to them in the case of the Wirral in 2009, put together. In its case to the High Court, it highlighted when we were both in opposition. an issue that was particularly relevant to Hesters Way—that of equalities—which I had raised personally on a number Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): Will my hon. of occasions with Councillor Hawthorne. On Wednesday Friend give way? 395 Gloucestershire Libraries12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Gloucestershire Libraries 396

Martin Horwood: I shall give way to another neighbour, This is not a request for the Secretary of State to run from Gloucester. Gloucestershire’s libraries for us, or even to take all the decisions that need to be taken locally; it is a request for Richard Graham: My hon. Friend raises concerns him to make inquiries and, in the words of the Act, to that libraries may be closed, but my understanding is “superintend, and promote the improvement of” that no library in Gloucestershire has closed, and that public library services. It is not at all clear to me that they will all continue. That is certainly the case in my this duty is currently being fulfilled in the manner that constituency of Gloucester, and I welcome the proposal the authors of the Act might have expected. We all wish for greater flexibility in the provision of library services that these decisions could be taken in a time of expanding which I hope in due course, in the ward of Matson, budgets and generous local government settlements, but which is similar to Hesters Way in many respects, will sadly, as we all know, that is not the case, and there may result in opportunities for the community to be more still be more pain ahead. However, as the institute has involved through voluntary work, work experience for pointed out, different and more careful approaches are the young and the greater provision of other facilities possible. alongside the library. As Julia Donaldson made so clear in her recent Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman refers to Matson, public statement, libraries are a precious local and which is interesting because it seems to be a parallel national resource that need to be celebrated and defended case to that of Hesters Way. It is an area of deprivation, with as much courage and resourcefulness as the tiny as he obviously well knows. In the case of Hesters Way, snail on the tail of a whale so that future generations, the offer of a community takeover resulted in a whatever their personal circumstances, can be given a neighbourhood project supported by the district council, space to discover, to read and learn, and to enjoy stories which is Liberal Democrat-led Cheltenham borough like hers. council. I am not sure exactly what the situation is in Matson, but I understand that the library is also staying 7.28 pm open as a public library. If Friends of Gloucestershire Libraries is correct, there are still threats of outstanding The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, closures to public libraries, and the question of whether Olympics, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): Iam invitations to communities, neighbourhood projects or grateful for the opportunity to respond to this important other institutions to take them over will succeed is still debate and the points raised by my hon. Friend the outstanding. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood). I understand the concerns that are being raised, and will no doubt continue to be raised, in several quarters. Richard Graham: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? My hon. Friend made some effective points about the Martin Horwood: No, I am sorry. I have given way importance of libraries and prayed in aid the children’s twice, which is stretching the courtesy of the House in laureate, Julia Donaldson. He and I have something an Adjournment debate at the best of times, so I will in common in that we are both regular readers of press on. Ms Donaldson’s wonderful literature. I think that all Members of this House agree with the sentiments that Friends of Gloucestershire Libraries has raised the she has expressed about the importance of libraries, Secretary of State’s responsibilities and the possibility reading and literature. I respectfully disagree, however, of his intervention in Gloucestershire on a number of with Ms Donaldson’s analysis of the state of the public occasions, but decision came there none—not even a library service in England, for which I am responsible. reply to some of its communications until yesterday, It is worth making clear that I am not responsible for less than 24 hours before this debate. The Minister probably superintending the library service in Scotland or, indeed, owes some eagle-eyed official in his Department a drink in Wales or Northern Ireland. Those powers have rightly for having spotted that potential little embarrassment. been devolved. The letter to Johanna Anderson, one of Friends of Gloucestershire Libraries’ most uncompromising Libraries remain a statutory service, and it is worth supporters, rather surprisingly implies that intervention putting on record that this Government have no intention by the Secretary of State in the form of a public inquiry of changing that. That is a very important safeguard for is still possible. It says that the Department has been in the future of libraries in England. It is worth pointing the process of gathering evidence since April 2011 and out, when one considers the history of public library offers the excuse that provision in this country, that libraries have always been supported and paid for either by councils or by “the council’s plans have been subject to considerable change over a sustained period of time”— philanthropic endeavour. In fact, the growth of the public library service in this country initially started but not as much change as many campaigners in with the grant so generously provided by Andrew Carnegie, Gloucestershire would like. I suggest that the Secretary and continued with Parliament’s enabling of councils to of State had better get a move on, or all the decisions raise rates in order to pay for the service. Nobody will have been taken and implemented before he has should be in any doubt about the importance of the finished gathering the evidence. public library service in promoting literature and education, The powers of the Secretary of State in the 1964 Act because in the 19th century many councils opposed are serious ones that are not to be used lightly, but in a building public libraries in case there was too much county where the decisions of the council and the education in their area. Public libraries are, therefore, a processes by which they have reached them have generated local authority service, and it is important for central such opposition, and even been ruled unlawful, I would Government to recognise that and to be cautious about have thought that they could and should be exercised. when they intervene. 397 Gloucestershire Libraries12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Gloucestershire Libraries 398

[Mr Edward Vaizey] services and calls for inquiries, one assumes that an inquiry is called every minute. In fact, the Public Libraries The thrust of my hon. Friend’s remarks was that he and Museums Act 1964 has been on the statute book wants a public inquiry into Gloucestershire county for almost half a century, and in that time only one council’s decision. He is right to say that we are still inquiry has ever been called, and that was the inquiry to looking at and gathering evidence about the changes which he referred—the Wirral inquiry. I hope that he being made by the council, so it is worth putting on will understand, therefore, that one cannot simply call record that it would be wrong for me to comment on the an inquiry will-nilly. particular changes that are being made until the Department Since being honoured to take up this position in the reaches a decision, but I will enlighten my hon. Friend coalition Government, I have always taken the independent on how it goes about making those kinds of decisions. advice of my officials about whether there is a prima facie case that a particular council has breached the Richard Graham: The critical point raised by the hon. requirements to provide a comprehensive and efficient Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) was the library service. I will take their advice on Gloucestershire scare that libraries in the county will be closed, but my in the fullness of time, now that its provisions have clear understanding from the county council—this is become clearer. certainly true in my constituency and, I believe, in that of my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): The Stroud (Neil Carmichael)—is that no libraries will be Minister might not yet be aware of the library in closed. There is a danger—I do not know whether the Tewkesbury linking up with the Roses theatre next door Minister has spotted this—that this is an artful and in order to expand and provide a centre of cultural early kick-off to a Lib Dem county council election excellence. It will seek additional funding for that. Are campaign, with scares about libraries being closed when there not opportunities for libraries to go beyond what the reality is that none will be closed. What would the they do already? Minister say to that? Mr Vaizey: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Mr Vaizey: As I have said, libraries are a local service, Without wishing to comment on the specific issues in and county council elections are local elections. I hear Gloucestershire, it is worth pointing out that there are what my hon. Friend has said, as have the electors of great examples of innovation in the public library service Gloucester no doubt. I look forward to observing—perhaps up and down the country. from a distance—the vigorous election campaign that It is my job to tell the good news about public will be conducted in Gloucestershire in the weeks and libraries in this country, because the press are interested months to come. only in publishing the bad news. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) pointed out, Painswick, Martin Horwood: I want to put on record my absolute which was closed under the previous Government—I do rejection that this is in some way the launch of a Lib not remember calls for an inquiry then—has reopened Dem election campaign. I wish we could recruit 13,000 as a volunteer library. So there are many positives. petitioners and the High Court to our cause, but I do not think that that is credible. However, if the electors In fact, at a time of economic difficulty, when, as the of Gloucestershire wish to try a different approach, hon. Member for Cheltenham pointed out, people have they will know which way to vote in May 2013. to look at their budgets—whichever party was in power, there would have been cuts to public expenditure—the public library service is funded by local authorities to Richard Graham rose— the tune of £900 million a year, and more than 3,300 libraries are still open and serving the public across the Mr Vaizey: If my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester country. When the news is all about whether a library is (Richard Graham) will forgive me, I will not give way. closing, the libraries that are opening or being refurbished The election campaign seems to be beginning in the are rarely reported. The Society of Chief Librarians middle of this debate; I want to get back to the issues at estimated that, at the end of last year, 40 new or stake. significantly refurbished libraries would open in 2012, Let me be clear: it is genuinely the case that the and that has already been achieved. Libraries are opening position in Gloucestershire has been uncertain for some as well as closing. time. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham pointed out, Gloucestershire county council made its Richard Graham: For the Minister’s benefit, may I final decision in April 2012, but that was then called in put it on record that, as far as I know, not a single for scrutiny by the Liberal Democrat opposition and, library in Gloucestershire will close? Given that this after that scrutiny was rejected, there was further debate is about Gloucestershire libraries, we should consultation. As I understand it, the final decision have clarity on that point. My hon. Friend the Member about the shape of Gloucestershire county council’s for Cheltenham has been unable to name a single library library service was made only this month—September that will close. It was simply a scare that some might 2012—so I respectfully suggest to my hon. Friend that close. I have been told by the county council that that is it would be difficult for the Government to call a public not the case. inquiry when the position of the public library service is changing. Mr Vaizey: I hear what my hon. Friend says. Not only My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham rightly are libraries purported to be closing not actually closing said that these are serious powers not to be used lightly. across the country, but new libraries are opening, including, When one reads debates about the future of library for example, the Hive in Worcester, which is the first 399 Gloucestershire Libraries12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Gloucestershire Libraries 400 ever joint public and academic library in the country—as because of that point, but I understand that there are well as the renovation of the Passmore Edwards centre ongoing negotiations about transferring to community in Newton Abbot. In 2013, the city of Birmingham will groups the libraries that are disputed by my two hon. open Europe’s largest public library, costing more than Friends. £100 million, and the refurbishment of the Liverpool central library will be completed. Three quarters of Mr Robertson: The hon. Member for Cheltenham children in England and 40% of adults still regularly (Martin Horwood) referred to Friends of Gloucestershire use our public libraries. Libraries, which lists Brockworth library as one facing We are doing all we can to support libraries. The first closure. Brockworth is in my constituency, and the speech I made as a Minister was about libraries and the library has been handed over to the community which is first action I took was to write to every local authority doing an excellent job at keeping it going and linking to remind them of their statutory duty to provide a it with other community groups. I have every hope for comprehensive and efficient library service; to point that library and do not accept that it will close as them to the Charteris review, which was the inquiry suggested by Friends of Gloucestershire Libraries. conducted by Sue Charteris into the Wirral closures; to guide them on how they should approach any review of Mr Vaizey: I hear my hon. Friend; sometimes the libraries; and to make it clear that every council thinking headlines belie what is happening on the ground. of reorganising its library service should do so only after a thorough review. Richard Graham: I suggest that the easy way to We handed responsibility for libraries to Arts Council resolve this issue is for the Minister to come and see England—a bigger organisation than the Museum, what is happening in Gloucestershire. He could admire Libraries and Archive Council that was previously the renovation of the central library in Brunswick road responsible. We have united under one roof the provision in Gloucester, which has been magnificently restored of culture and of libraries, to provide a more joined-up and improved by the county council. He could see what and effective service. At the end of the month, the Arts has happened in Painswick where the library has reopened, Council’s new grants for the arts fund will open for and the community library in Brockworth mentioned applications—£6 million for libraries to work with artists by my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury and cultural organisations on arts and cultural activities. (Mr Robertson). He could see the efforts being made in In June 2012 the Government announced a series of Hesters Way, and review the situation for himself. He pilots to test automatic library memberships for would be welcome in Gloucestershire to see our magnificent schoolchildren. libraries.

Martin Horwood: Perhaps I can emulate the hon. Mr Vaizey: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, but I am Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) and try to running out of time. draw the Minister back to Gloucestershire. The hon. In conclusion, my Department reviews all proposals Member for Gloucester made the confident assertion for library reorganisation put forward by councils. We that no libraries in Gloucestershire will close, yet Friends will review Gloucestershire’s proposals and issue a decision of Gloucestershire Libraries lists seven that are still at on whether to hold a public inquiry in the fullness of risk of closure, at least as public libraries, if not completely. time once those proposals are clear. A £6 million fund has been provided by the Arts Council, which is now Richard Graham: Which ones? responsible for superintending and promoting the library service. Yesterday, the Cabinet Office announced an Martin Horwood: The libraries are listed on the Friends initiative to promote volunteering by young people in of Gloucestershire Libraries website. They are all outside libraries, and we are piloting automatic membership of my constituency so I will not list them. Has the Minister libraries for schoolchildren. We are publishing data by received any assurance from the county council that the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy there will be no library closures in Gloucestershire? publicly so that members of the public, MPs and councillors can compare their library services with similar services Mr Vaizey: In a sense, my hon. Friend the Member across the country. To echo some the remarks made by for Gloucester makes my point for me. There is a my hon. Friends, I make no apology for the increase in dispute in the Chamber between two Gloucestershire volunteers in libraries. They make an enormous difference Members about whether libraries in Gloucestershire to the provision of library services. will close. I will take advice from my officials on whether Gloucestershire is providing a comprehensive and efficient 7.44 pm service, once it is clear what that service is. I have been House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order reluctant to talk specifically about Gloucestershire precisely No. 9(7)).

75WH 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 76WH

That is a phrase that the hon. Member for Wrexham Westminster Hall (Ian Lucas) will know well from his work as a lawyer. The words “without fear or favour” are very simple, but Wednesday 12 September 2012 very powerful. They encapsulate two vital concepts for any professional holding themselves to be truly independent: first, the ability to operate freely and without worrying [MR GEORGE HOWARTH in the Chair] about any repercussions as a result of their actions; and secondly, the freedom to act without inducement or Human Rights Violations corrupt practice. In too many parts of the world, fear and undue favour are still all too prevalent in professional Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting work. be now adjourned.—( Anne Milton.) Our report focused on several themes. Rather than taking a country-by-country approach, we considered 9.30 am the violations of human rights that are faced by different Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is a professions, according to the evidence that we received. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. We looked at the violations of human rights that are I am delighted to have secured a debate on an issue that faced by lawyers and, according to the evidence, where is of real importance to Members across the House. I the rule of law is weak or absent, lawyers face particular am glad to see that representatives of other political challenges. Whether they are challenging human rights parties are present to join in discussing such a vital abuses on behalf of political dissidents, representing issue. communities threatened by large-scale economic development or defending people who are alleged to The debate arises as a direct result of a report published have infringed religious laws, lawyers face considerable earlier this summer by the Conservative party human infringements. rights commission, which I have the honour of chairing. I am particularly grateful to fellow members of the In places such as Colombia, Mexico, Nepal and commission, including Members of both Houses of Guatemala, lawyers face a range of human rights violations, Parliament, Members of the European Parliament and including death threats, intimidation, stalking, assault, campaigners, for their work and support in helping the illegal surveillance and defamation. In Colombia, more inquiry that led to the publication of our report. I am than 400 lawyers have been assassinated since 1991. grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for The Shakespeare wrote memorably about killing all the lawyers Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), who is present, but, in a different context and a different time, the lack for his work in the oral evidence sessions held during of truly independent legal advice is a real threat to civil the inquiry, and for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), who is societies, such as that in Colombia. also present, for her unstinting work in that respect. I have focused on the dangers faced by lawyers. However, it is important to remember that not only are I also pay tribute to all the organisations that submitted lawyers facing dangers, but the rule of law itself and the written evidence to the commission and to those who independence of the judiciary are under attack. For gave oral evidence. A wide range of organisations gave example, in Iran, the independent Bar Association, evidence to our inquiry, including Amnesty International, which was set up in 1955, was closed down after the the British Medical Association, the Law Society, Medact, revolution, and the majority of its directors were jailed. Human Rights Watch, the National Union of Teachers, In the past two years, more than a dozen lawyers who the Rights Practice and the Peace Brigades. The result is had been members of that association have been imprisoned the report entitled, “Professionals in the Firing Line”, for defending political prisoners and even worse, because which makes a number of recommendations to the it is more permanent, many have been disqualified from Government that I shall deal with in turn. practice. In the ongoing debate about the state of human In China, as it reaches a change of leadership, there rights across the world, one thing is very clear: without again seems to be a crackdown on all forms of political the existence of impartial and independent professions dissent, which poses a particular challenge for lawyers, and in the absence of proper systems allowing business mainly due to an increase in police surveillance. We people to operate with integrity, no society can truly think that China has shown a complete failure to respect call itself free or open. In other words, the implementation the United Nations basic principles on the role of of basic standards of democracy and human rights at a lawyers. We have particular concerns about several cases political level will never be enough. Unless a country involving the abduction, torture and house arrest or the has a similar commitment to the free conduct of people holding incommunicado of lawyers. Of particular concern offering and carrying out professional services—whether are the cases of Cheng Guangcheng, a blind lawyer, they are lawyers, doctors, teachers, journalists or people who has spent most of the past six years in prison or undertaking legitimate business—not only is the country under house arrest for filing law suits on behalf of in question obstructing freedom, but it is impeding its women forced to have abortions under the one-child own economic and social development. Regimes in policy; of Gao Zhisheng, a human rights lawyer, who various parts of the world know that all too well, but defended Falun Gong and house church Christians and they perceive the independence of professions or businesses has at various times in recent years been jailed and within their societies as some sort of threat to their own beaten and is currently still in prison; of the several political power. Molihua lawyers, who have been detained for varying For many years, I have been a member of a profession periods in the past year; of the Beihai lawyers, who have in England and Wales—the Bar—and its code of conduct been beaten up and arrested on various occasions; and, tells barristers that among our duties must be the ability, finally, of Liu Xiaoyuan, a Beijing-based lawyer and at all times, to conduct cases “without fear or favour”. friend of the artist Ai Weiwei, who was detained for six 77WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 78WH

[Mr Robert Buckland] human rights and a new human rights and social development Ministry, and are making some progress days in April last year at an undisclosed location. All in moving their society forward from the position it had those are pretty stark examples of China’s failure to reached last year. adhere to a basic tenet of human rights. We urge the Bahraini Government to allow foreign In Bahrain last year, the prominent defence lawyer journalists and human rights organisations to observe Mohamed al-Tajer was arrested without a warrant by such developments, and call on Her Majesty’s Government masked security officers, who took him to an unknown to monitor their progress so that we do not have a location and brought him before a military court, in situation whereby lip service is paid to human rights. which he was charged with allegations of spreading We encountered evidence of the threats being posed rumours and malicious news and of inciting hatred to medical professionals not only in Bahrain, but in towards the regime. His trial was then referred to a several other countries. We received examples of cases civilian court and he has been released from prison, but from Syria, Iran and India. In Syria, we heard evidence his legal status is unclear. I mentioned Iran, and it of the arrest, torture and abuse of health professionals, would be wrong not to refer to the case of Nasrin Sadly, we also heard about the death of a number of Sotoudeh, who was arrested in September 2010 and is professionals in that country. now serving an 11-year sentence for representing the According to the British Medical Association, there Nobel peace prize recipient Dr Shirin Ebadi as well as are reports of some doctors being used by the Syrian many other human rights campaigners. authorities as tools of repression. In some cases, they As a result of the evidence we heard, we have made a were instructed to abuse wounded protesters who sought number of recommendations for action by the British treatment in state-run hospitals, which is an appalling Government. First, we recommend that they do everything perversion of the oath that is taken by all doctors and that they can to promote respect for the rule of law and the ethics that surround the medical profession. It is protection for lawyers in all relevant public statements something that any truly free society would regard as and bilateral discussions. abhorrent. Secondly, we recommend that the Government develop We also heard about the case of Dr Binayak Sen in and maintain relationships with lawyers, especially those India. He is a renowned paediatrician and human rights at risk and those involved in defending human rights activist who was sentenced to life imprisonment for campaigners, political activists and vulnerable communities, sedition and conspiracy against the state before being and in conducting anti-corruption cases. Embassy staff released on bail by the Indian Supreme Court last should visit lawyers and provide opportunities and platforms April. His imprisonment has been condemned by a to meet. number of organisations, including Amnesty and Human Thirdly, we recommend that all United Kingdom Rights Watch. diplomatic missions implement the EU guidelines on It is also known that in conflict zones, medical human rights defenders and include the protection of professionals are deliberately targeted by those involved. local human rights defenders, including lawyers, in their For example, in Sri Lanka, during the final stages of the contingency plans for emergency situations. civil war, the military was accused of intentionally Fourthly, financial support and technical expertise shelling field hospitals, killing doctors and other medical should be provided to Governments and lawyers to professionals. The United Nations report of the Secretary- increase understanding of the rule of law and the General’s panel of experts on accountability in Sri independence of the judiciary. We also recommend that Lanka said: human rights violations and questions of impunity are “The Government systematically shelled hospitals on the frontlines. investigated so that justice is upheld. Finally, we called All hospitals in the Vanni were hit by mortars and artillery, some for the ratification of the United Nations international of them were hit repeatedly”. convention for the protection of all persons from enforced In the ongoing and historic ethnic conflicts in Burma, disappearances. attacks by the Burmese army on clinics and medical We then looked at the challenges faced by medical professionals are well documented. practitioners, whether they be doctors, nurses or other As a result of the evidence we heard, we make the medical workers. We of course dealt with the incidents following recommendations for the Government: consider that arose from the unrest in the Kingdom of Bahrain proposing an extension to the mandate of the UN in 2011, which involved a large number of Bahraini Special Rapporteur on the right to health to include doctors. More than 200 medical professionals were reporting on protection for and violations of medical arrested following the direct intervention by security neutrality; work with the International Committee of forces in an incident at the Salmaniya medical complex, the Red Cross to develop the project “Health care in the largest public hospital. The events that followed are danger” to better assure the security of health care well documented, but the evidence that we heard from a workers during armed conflict; and ensure that British number of professions were of arrests, detention and, diplomatic representatives are present at any trial sadly, mistreatment. We also looked at the use of military proceedings involving doctors or other medical professionals rather than civil procedures to deal with the number of where there is evidence that the defendants have been people, and of criminal proceedings to address issues subjected to violations of human rights or are being that were more properly the province of professional persecuted as a direct result of fulfilling their professional conduct. and ethical medical responsibilities. Finally, we welcome The commission was pleased to note that 15 criminal the Bahraini Government’s acknowledgement of the prosecutions against medical professionals were dropped abuses that were committed, and urge the Government in March and that, in the aftermath of the unrest, the to monitor closely the progress of promised institutional Bahraini Government set up a national institution on change in Bahrain. 79WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 80WH

We then looked at violations of human rights being As a commission, we recommend that the Government faced by journalists and media workers. We were helped take several steps to increase protection for media workers by organisations such as Article 19, which works in the and to promote press freedom. We urge the Government area of press freedom. Since 2010, more than 500 to work to uphold and enforce UN Security Council journalists have been killed and in 2011 alone at least 97 resolution 1738 on the protection of journalists; we were killed. Among the most dangerous countries for urge the Government to support activities to promote journalists are Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Mexico, the Philippines world press freedom day each year; and finally, we ask and Somalia. It is right to note that Turkey and Uzbekistan the Government to help to ensure that press freedom have the highest number of journalists in prison. and the protection of media workers are raised in all It is estimated that 145 journalists are in jail around bilateral and multilateral forums, with specific attention the world, with 67 in Turkey alone. They are mostly paid to the EU and the UN, and particularly with being held under anti-terror laws. Media workers are reference to the Governments of China, Iran, Mexico, also vulnerable to violence based on gender and to Pakistan, the Philippines, Turkey and Uzbekistan. sudden disappearances. At least 10 journalists disappeared The report then turns to the violation of human in Mexico in 2011. Infringements against the media rights that are being faced by teachers. Once again, take place not only in countries with conflict situations maintaining the integrity and independence of the teaching or with little or no democratic progress, but in emerging profession is vital if future generations are to have democracies. It is crystal clear that in the overwhelming access to the truth and understand the world around majority of cases, the crimes against journalists go them in an objective way. It is sad and concerning to unpunished. In other words, there is operation with note that in far too many regimes and countries teachers impunity by both states and third parties within those themselves are facing oppression and the use of violence countries. by third parties within those countries. We are grateful Belarus is a country of particular concern to the to the National Union of Teachers for the evidence that Commission. There are a number of continuing it provided. infringements against the freedom of journalists to In countries such as Colombia, Ethiopia and Iran, operate. The case of Oleg Bebenin, who was found the situation is particularly concerning. The position of hanged in his country home in 2010, is one of the most teachers in Colombia remains grave. In 2010, 49 trade concerning cases. Even though Belarus is in Europe, it is unionists were assassinated, 27 of whom were teachers ranked 189th out of 196 countries for press freedom by and members of the Colombian teaching union. As I Freedom House, which is lower than Iran or Zimbabwe. say, the position of teachers in Colombia remains very All mainstream media outlets in Belarus are controlled serious. In 2011, the killings continued; in fact, 29 trade by the state and after a mass media law was passed in unionists were assassinated last year. And so far in 2008 further restrictions were introduced, including allowing 2012, 16 trade unionists have been assassinated. state prosecutors and the ministry of information to In 2009, Education International published a report close or suspend news outlets if they on political violence against the education sector in “threaten the interests of the state or the public”. Colombia. The report said that between 1991 and 2006 That has resulted in the denial of many licences for more than 800 Colombian teachers and education workers media groups and an increased risk to media organisations were murdered. Those killings were carried out primarily that are hostile to or disagree with the regime. by right-wing paramilitary organisations, and once again The position in China regarding the media also concerned they were committed with impunity—that means that the commission. In particular, many bloggers and others there was no punishment, no comeback and no consequence using the internet have been arrested in the last year. as a result of those murders. The Foreign Correspondents’ Club of China reports One example of such killings is that of Jorge Eliécer that more than a dozen reporters, including representatives de los Ríos Cárdenas, a teacher who was responsible for of international media organisations such as the BBC, an environmental education project. In June 2011, he CNN and Bloomberg, have been detained or beaten by was shot several times outside his school. He had publicly security officers when they covered possible protests. denounced the effects of open-cast mining on his local Zhang Jialong, the former Caijing magazine journalist community and he paid for that with his life. who covered the detention of the artist Ai Weiwei, went In Ethiopia, teaching unions have been restricted and missing in April 2011 after being approached by a teachers who have been active in illegal union activities person claiming to represent the police. In 2009, the have faced intense persecution. Teachers who have criticised Nobel prize laureate Liu Xiaobo was sentenced to the Government’s educational policies have been dismissed. 11 years in prison having been held incommunicado In 2008, a new union, the National Teachers’ Association, since December 2008. was established but it was not recognised by the In Iran, journalists face harassment, torture and Government. In November 2011, an Ethiopian teacher imprisonment. They include Faranak Farid, a women’s burned himself to death in protest against human rights rights activist and journalist. She was arrested in September violations, having been jailed for helping to organise 2011 and detained without charge. She is reported to demonstrations against corruption in government. have been beaten so severely that she is now unable to In Iran, members of teaching unions have faced move one of her arms and has lost the hearing in her arrest and detention, and teachers belonging to religious left ear. minorities have faced severe persecution. Last year, the I have already mentioned Syria in another context, authorities in Iran tried to shut down the Baha’i Institute but it would be wrong of me not to refer to that country for Higher Education, which is the only higher education and that regime again in discussing journalists. Several facility for those adhering to the Baha’i faith. As a journalists in Syria, including Mohammed Zaid Mastou result, dozens of academic staff were detained. Other and Dorothy Parvaz, have been detained. cases from Iran that we heard about include that of 81WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 82WH

[Mr Robert Buckland] Mr Buckland: My hon. Friend rightly highlights the key importance of an independent judiciary. So many Farzad Kamangar, a 35-year-old teacher who was countries do themselves a disservice by not guaranteeing imprisoned and charged with “enmity towards God”. free and independent legal processes. They damage He was sentenced to death and executed in 2010. their own trade prospects by not giving businesses the Furthermore, meetings of the Iranian Teacher Trade confidence that any dispute with which they might Association have been prevented from happening and become involved can be resolved properly by an independent many teachers remain in detention. judiciary. That challenges the viability of contract law, After the protests in Bahrain that took place early and we know plenty of examples of other countries that last year, we have heard examples and received evidence use English contract law, with its long reputation for of the violation of human rights of teachers and university integrity and reliability, as the way to do business. That professors in that country. In particular, we heard evidence is great for this country, commercially as well as politically, about the case of Jaleela al-Salman, vice-president of but other countries will do well to adopt the principles the Bahrain Teachers Association. We are concerned that for so long have applied in countries such as ours. about her arrest in March 2011, which took place in her own home in front of her children. We are also concerned Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): I about the dissolution of the Bahraini teachers’ union, congratulate my hon. Friend on his thorough report, which happened in April 2011. A new union was established and I urge those who have not read it to do so. The but it was established by a Government ministry, and excerpts from the report that he has drawn upon in his therefore there are concerns about the integrity and speech today are heartbreaking, and illuminate what independence of that organisation. goes on in the rest of the world. Having considered all the evidence about teachers Has my hon. Friend thought about the fact that the that it received, the commission makes the following United Nations was set up in the wake of the second recommendations: we urge the Government to seek world war, to try to prevent such enormous atrocities as systematic protection of the human rights of teachers happened in that war from ever occurring again? Has he across the world; we ask the Government to promote also thought about the fact that some of the UN’s the implementation of fundamental labour standards, institutions are not as effective as they might be—in including the International Labour Organisation particular, the United Nations Commission on Human conventions 87 and 98; we ask the Government to Rights, which often has principal members who themselves promote the right of teachers to form trade unions; we have pretty dubious human rights records? What more ask the Government to seek accountability for crimes could our Government do to urge the UN to be more committed against teachers and teacher trade unionists effective? Many of my hon. Friend’s recommendations around the world, particularly in Colombia and Ethiopia; involve human rights resolutions. and finally, we call upon the Government to seek the release of all teachers imprisoned in Iran. Mr Buckland: My hon. Friend is right. The answer Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I that I would give him today is that I think that the congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this very important United Nations has brought together Governments but debate. He has asked the Government to take certain perhaps has a long way to go to bring together other steps, but does he agree that we also need to urge other levels of society. For an organisation such as the UN to countries to establish a body similar to our Joint Committee make true progress, more work must be done at differing on Human Rights? I serve on that Committee, which levels of society, more effectively to bring together considers whether all legislation is human rights-compatible. professional organisations, for example. We are lucky in Does he agree that we need to encourage other countries the United Kingdom to have organisations, such as the to have such a committee, to ensure that all legislation is Law Society and the Bar Council, with international looked at in the light of human rights? relations committees that do a lot of this work, by working with lawyers in other countries to spread best Mr Buckland: I am extremely grateful to my hon. practice, share principles of freedom and justice and Friend for that intervention. He makes a very proper encourage other societies to work in a similar way. point about the need for more effective political mechanisms Without the support of member Governments of the for legislators, so that every possible step is taken to United Nations, and of the institution itself, that work ensure that human rights legislation is passed in the will always be too ad hoc to have universal application. country in question. I think that he will agree with my That is my view about how the United Nations should fundamental point that that, in and of itself, is not now develop, nearly 70 years after its foundation in San enough and that more needs to be done at the professional Francisco in 1945. and civil levels to propagate standards of independence, integrity and freedom. Without that kind of culture I am grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for developing in countries with poor records, such countries Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) and for cannot be judged to be truly free. The Cotswolds for their interventions. Reference has been made to the integrity of contract law and to the Rehman Chishti: My hon. Friend has briefly touched rule of law, and that brings me on to the final area that on the overall aspect, which is the separation of executive we considered: the difficulties faced in many countries and judicial powers. The fundamental point is that it is by people who are trying to carry out business or are in great to have lawyers who can carry out their jobs, but it some way involved in representing people in business. I is important to have a judiciary that will give them have made the fundamental point that threats to the impartial hearings. The countries that he mentions are integrity of business practice threaten not only freedom, affected by that, and unless the situation changes one but the commercial and financial viability of many will not get proper human rights. countries. In particular, we looked at what is happening 83WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 84WH in Russia, and we are gravely concerned that the Russian membership of European and global organisations such state is either condoning or actively taking part in as the Council of Europe, the Organisation for Security endemic corruption. There are two cases that we consider and Co-operation in Europe and the World Trade to be examples of the baleful effect of state corruption Organisation carries a significant responsibility to operate on the lifeblood of an economy. according to international rules. The Sergei Magnitsky case has been well documented A foreign policy that involves not only the use of and the subject of debates, not only here but in countries political pressure to achieve change but investment in across the world. A debate in the House some months developing professional skills and capacity, with the ago highlighted the continuing concerns of both direct input of British professional organisations in Government and Opposition Members about the role sharing best practice and providing training, will do of the Russian state in the killing of the lawyer, Sergei much to help build a freer and more stable world. Magnitsky. Putting it simply, Mr Magnitsky was arrested, imprisoned and ill-treated, and he died for having blown Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I sense that my hon. Friend the whistle on the massive theft of tax revenue from the is coming to his peroration, but has he considered how Russian state by its own officials. A simple recitation of our international development assistance might be used those facts underlines the seriousness of the position to persuade countries that have a less than perfect that the Russian state now finds itself in and the danger human rights record that they need to improve their to freedom that such cases reveal. performance? We believe that in recognition of the unique position of London as a destination of choice for many senior Mr Buckland: Yes, I have. I firmly believe that the role Russian officials, the Government should, as soon as of our international development programme is not possible, introduce measures publicly to restrict visas only to give direct monetary help, where appropriate, and to freeze the assets of Russian officials involved in but to facilitate and allow professionals and professional serious corruption and human rights abuses. We were organisations to spread best practice and train professionals delighted by the reference to the issue in “Human in emerging countries, by providing the appropriate Rights and Democracy: The 2011 Foreign and funding for those programmes to exist. Commonwealth Office Report”: As a country, we produce thousands of qualified “Where there is independent, reliable and credible evidence that an individual has committed human rights abuses, the individual professionals every year, and this is not an easy time for will not normally be permitted to enter the United Kingdom.” many of those professionals to go immediately into full-time practice because there is a lot of competition That statement is particularly important in the context in the market. I believe that there is a great opportunity of a recent development in Russia: the decision by the for some of our younger professionals and, indeed, for authorities to withhold the identities of all 12 prosecutors professionals who wish to take a mid-career break to involved in the posthumous—yes, posthumous—trial put something back into the society from which they of Sergei Magnitsky. The man not only suffered indignity have benefited. What better way to do that than by in life; he now faces it in death. The reason for withholding embarking upon properly funded, properly structured the identities, it seems to me, is simple. If legislation, programmes in countries with poor human rights records which is being considered by the United States Congress to spread good practice and freedom? among others, is passed, those individuals would face losing visa rights and having their assets frozen if their Our greatest invisible exports are freedom, the rule of identities were revealed. That lamentable state of affairs law and freedom under the law. Let us ensure that fellow further reflects the difficult and troubled situation that professionals in other countries can genuinely enjoy the we face with human rights in Russia. freedoms that I and other professionals have enjoyed in this country so that they, in all their walks of life, can The other Russian example that we looked at was the operate without fear or favour. Khodorkovsky case. Without going into the full details of that troubled history, the individual remains in prison, after eight years, and the case has still not been satisfactorily 10.13 am resolved. We regard it as yet another example of double standards being applied, rather than equality under the Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): I congratulate my law, which has to be a basic tenet of all countries that hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) hold themselves out to be free. That is important, not only on securing this debate but on the way in which because bilateral trade between the United Kingdom he has chaired the Conservative party human rights and Russia has been growing by an average of 21% commission since taking up that post nearly a year ago. every year since 2001. In 2010, exports from this country His dedication is shown in the high quality of the to Russia increased by 51% to nearly £3.5 billion, which wide-ranging report and its in-depth recommendations. shows the importance for British business of the integrity It is a privilege to be identified with the report and with of the financial and business systems in countries such his work. as Russia. Without that integrity, there is a direct threat to British business and the integrity of trade between Mr Buckland: I pay tribute to commission member our two nations. That is why, at a practical level, it is Mr Ben Rogers, whom my hon. Friend and I know well. important that the British Government’s message to He has played an important part in bringing together regimes that indulge in such practices is clear. the strands that form the report. We urge the Government to introduce measures to support civil society in Russia, by encouraging and Fiona Bruce: I will augment the report by referring to facilitating British professional bodies to engage with additional examples of human rights abuses against their Russian counterparts. We emphasise that Russia’s professionals uncovered by a contemporaneous inquiry. 85WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 86WH

[Fiona Bruce] him, and because of the number of people detained who had reported back to him that he had been the Since April, the Christians in Parliament all-party subject of interrogations, he realised the authorities group has conducted an inquiry into human rights were putting together a file on him. abuses in Iran, and my speech will focus on professionals Mr Jadidi was a member of Iran’s religious minority who have suffered human rights abuses in that country. committee of the human rights commission of the With the help of Elam Ministries and Eighteen07, the lawyers’ centre. He learned that other members of the all-party group is currently cataloguing those abuses, committee were also being systematically arrested and particularly abuses against the rapidly growing Christian taken into custody. At that point, he felt compelled to community, leave his profession and flee Iran to avoid his own A range of human rights abuses has been described arrest. to us, from job discrimination and the withholding of My third example involves a journalist and is equally passports to false arrest and subsequent sleep deprivation, disturbing, as it relates to BBC employees. We heard false information being given to families while those highly disturbing evidence from Sadeq Saba, editor of arrested are in detention, beatings, lengthy interrogations, BBC Persian, which is part of the World Service. Other mock executions and actual killings. I will highlight witnesses told us that an enormous number of people in three examples given to us by professionals. Iran listen to BBC Persian. It carries great authority, as Issa Dibaj is the eldest son of Mehdi Dibaj, who a we all appreciate. generation ago in 1994 was killed in Iran for his Christian Mr Saba testified about what he termed a faith. Almost 20 years later, Issa is still suffering as a “campaign of harassment and intimidation against BBC Persian result. He explained several forms of abuse that he has staff and their relatives”. experienced. Although perhaps not as major as the He stated that although reports are widespread of abuses experienced by others, I cite the example of job journalists being persecuted throughout the world, it is discrimination. He is a teacher: extremely unusual to hear of journalists working in “I graduated with a first class degree in English literature from Britain being attacked through the intimidation of their Tehran university, the country’s best educational institution. Despite families in another country.That is a particularly disturbing being highly qualified, despite the fact that the university was in approach and creates serious worry for BBC staff based desperate need of instructors in English, and despite having the here, far away from vulnerable relatives who have no full support of the academic members of the board of the English connection with the work of the BBC other than through department, my application for a teaching position in Tehran university was rejected with the vague explanation that ‘at present a family member. we cannot offer you this position’.” One journalist was instructed to report for interrogation I turn now to the evidence gathered for our report via the internet, and was told that if they did not from the alarming testimony of another professional, comply, their family members in Iran would be in Hossein Jadidi. A lawyer, Mr Jadidi was a devout danger. Most alarming in Mr Saba’s testimony was the Muslim who converted to Christianity. In our hearings, number of people who had been approached in that he reported enormous resistance from the authorities to way, or whose families had been approached. Over a his attempts to provide professional services to his six-month period, no fewer than 30 to 40 of Mr Saba’s clients, many of whom are also Christians. He discussed staff on the BBC Persian service told him about such two clients in detail as an example. threats or intimidation. Their families had been contacted by the authorities. The regime suggests to family members, On reporting to the Iranian intelligence ministry to for example, that it might be best if the journalists give be registered as his clients’ lawyer, Mr Jadidi experienced up their jobs or give information about the BBC to the intimidation and threats and was not permitted to visit Iranian Government. Families report being extremely his clients, in contravention of Iranian law. Eventually, scared of grave consequences if they do not comply. I his clients were granted bail, but once the bail had been put on record my admiration for Mr Saba’s staff and his paid they were not permitted to leave the prison. The leadership role. It is remarkable. He told us that to his prison authorities then refused to receive Mr Jadidi’s knowledge, no journalist has succumbed in response to written protest on their behalf. Mr Jadidi reports that threats to them or their family. he himself eventually became the subject of human I am pleased to have had the opportunity to highlight rights abuses and persecution, which began with monitoring those additional examples of the sufferings of professionals by the Government. He became aware of telltale sounds for their role in society. It is critical. I look forward to on his phone calls that indicated a third person was the Minister’s response, particularly to the recommendations listening in, and he noticed that people were always of the report that my hon. Friend the Member for watching him when he got out of his car. South Swindon discussed. We in this country are in a In December 2010, the Iranian Government organised unique position to make a difference. a large-scale programme of human rights abuses against Christians, taking hundreds of people into custody and 10.22 am questioning them. On their release, many reported back to Mr Jadidi that he had been the repeated subject of Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): It is a pleasure their interrogations. One said that an interrogator had to follow the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), told him, “We know what Hossein is up to, and he’s who mentioned some alarming instances of the targeting playing with fire.” Another interrogator used the of courageous journalists, even in this country. I am interrogation to threaten Mr Jadidi indirectly by asking, grateful to her. “Isn’t he afraid that when he drives his car he will have I commend the hon. Member for South Swindon an accident?” As a lawyer, Mr Jadidi knew the authorities (Mr Buckland) on securing this debate, on his eloquent needed to gather substantial evidence before arresting and comprehensive speech and on the report produced 87WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 88WH by the Conservative party human rights commission. It against them made by the Russian Government. He has reinforced many campaigns in the UK and worldwide probably died for his beliefs in much the same way as by organisations such as Amnesty International, Human Magnitsky. Rights Watch and Article 19. It has also reinforced the Those cases have been highlighted at numerous levels commitment to human rights across the coalition parties in this country and in the European Parliament, which and the House, which has been emphasised in government made a resolution in 2010 urging member states to take by the regular production of the human rights report, measures reinforcing sanctions against individuals with its courageous list of countries of concern. That implicated in human rights abuses. I strongly support might not seem like a courageous thing for a Government the calls made in the report and by the hon. Member for to do, but when we are pursuing business and trade South Swindon for further action, and I look forward probably as desperately as we ever have, highlighting to the Minister’s statement on whether we will take human rights concerns in countries such as Russia and further action on freezing assets and taking advantage China, putting those concerns boldly in print and raising of the fact that London is a destination of choice for them with the Governments is a courageous thing for many in the Russian hierarchy. I urge him to do so. our country to do. I am proud to support a Government who have done that, and I know that the Minister has a Finally, on Russia, it is noticeable that the European strong personal commitment to the human rights agenda. Court of Human Rights has been a strong supporter of cases such as Khodorkovsky’s, and has declared his In the time available, I will not go into a huge amount imprisonment unlawful. We are rightly seeking reform of detail—the hon. Member for South Swindon has of the ECHR, as the backlog of cases is making the already given us a lot of detail about many cases—but I Court potentially unworkable, but we must be rather will mention a few of the countries that he spoke about. cautious that in our language we do not endorse the In Bahrain, we can see that the Arab spring has not idea that Governments can pick and choose which cases been an uncomplicated or one-way process. The from their countries come to the Court, because Russia Government of Bahrain have had a deeply ambivalent would take great advantage of that. We must be careful approach to rising demands for democracy and human that in our legitimate desire for reform, we do not rights, and the intervention of Saudi Arabia in that accidentally damage the prospect of human rights in country has been profoundly unhelpful. Russia and other European countries. However, Bahrain was not a totalitarian state along The hon. Member for South Swindon mentioned one the lines of the old Iraq or the Libyan regime. It is other country, Belarus. I particularly commend a campaign creditable that Bahrain has set up a national human by Liberal Youthcalled “Bears for Belarus”. That campaign rights institution and that the King commissioned a grew out of the extraordinary action taken by a Swedish human rights report, which highlighted human rights public relations company: it dropped cuddly toys with abuses committed in the previous year or so. That is to pro-democracy and human rights messages into the Bahrain’s credit. However, I would be interested to hear Belarusian state. Two journalists were arrested simply the Minister’s thoughts on how well he thinks the for having their photographs taken with cuddly toys as Bahraini Government are implementing the report’s a subtle protest against the regime. A regime that can recommendations, and on why, for instance, campaigners arrest people for having their photograph taken with a such as Nabeel Rajab are still in prison in Bahrain. cuddly toy is some way away from the acceptable European The hon. Member for South Swindon highlighted level of human rights. The Government must do more cases in China. I am afraid that the catalogue of human to highlight human rights abuses in Belarus and to rights abuses in China is depressing, and the evidence encourage other states to take action against them. I that he cited of a fresh crackdown is particularly depressing. urge anyone listening to the debate or reading it on the Although we are seeking high levels of trade and investment internet to look up the “Bears for Belarus” campaign, with China, it is nevertheless important to maintain a and to get their photograph taken with a cuddly toy and human rights dialogue. I was particularly proud that make that statement, too. the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister were Finally, perhaps it is a natural Conservative inclination prepared to risk the wrath of Beijing by meeting the to highlight the plight of professionals, but might I Dalai Lama, albeit in a personal capacity. It made an extend the remit slightly to other people who seek work important statement about a commitment to human and are vulnerable to human rights persecution? I ask rights, not just in Tibet but across China. It is important the Minister to address the issue of migrant workers. to keep emphasising that. Governments such as those of Indonesia and India On the cases of business people working in Russia, have legitimate fears about, and have campaigned very the points made by the hon. Member for South Swindon hard for, the rights of migrant workers, particularly in were well made in the report and in his speech. One of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf, who are particularly vulnerable two iconic cases is that of Sergei Magnitsky, in which to human rights abuses and who do not always attract Britain has a particular interest. The company that Mr the attention of international non-governmental Magnitsky was representing when he was arrested was a organisations, or have the resources of companies such British company, Hermitage Capital, and Bill Browder, as Hermitage Capital to highlight their cases in the a British citizen, is conducting an extraordinary personal capitals of the world. They are suffering human rights campaign to seek justice for Magnitsky, albeit posthumous abuses too, and I would like to hear that the British justice. Britain should show leadership in the case. Government support Governments such as Indonesia There is also the current imprisonment of Mikhail and India in raising those issues. Khodorkovsky and Platon Lebedev. Unfortunately, in a Respect for universal human rights has been a Liberal case that parallels Magnitsky’s, their attorney, Vasily and democratic tradition since the days of Gladstone, Aleksanyan, died in custody, refusing to collaborate by but I am very happy to commend the report of the implicating his colleagues in Yukos in the accusations Conservative party human rights commission to the 89WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 90WH

[Martin Horwood] Organisations such as Reporters Without Borders document the human rights abuses that journalists face globally. House. I strongly support the words of the hon. Member Although there is some variation in the figures presented for South Swindon, and congratulate him again on by the UN and the International Federation of Journalists, securing the debate. it is clear that globally journalists, as we have heard today, are still coming under repeated attack and being censored, kidnapped, threatened, arrested, jailed, forced 10.31 am to flee and even killed. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve The hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) referred under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. It has also to the crucial role of the BBC World Service, which I been a pleasure to listen to the hon. Member for South take every opportunity to commend. It has done Swindon (Mr Buckland). He has given us a comprehensive tremendous work in Arab spring countries and has a account of human rights issues that relate to the professions. real impact in creating a culture of democracy that we In a sense, the account was depressing because of the all need to continue to support. number of cases to which he referred and which exist. I In March 2012, UNESCO drafted an action plan on commend him, however, on the quite unusual achievement the safety of journalists and the danger of impunity. of making me read a Conservative policy document— The report notes that there has been little improvement something that does not always occur—and it was of in the safety of journalists in the past few years. The great interest. It is positive that the hon. Gentleman draft action plan emphasises the need to extend UNESCO’s secured the debate and that it was instigated by the work to assist countries to develop laws and mechanisms report. In all the contributions to the debate we have to support freedom of expression and information and heard a broad commitment to the principles of human to implement the rules and principles set out in its 1997 rights, which we share. general conference resolution on violence against journalists. We are fortunate in the United Kingdom to be able to I ask the Minister for an update. When will the five aims speak out in Parliament, and outside Parliament, on of the plan be implemented and what resources will the these issues. However, we must always be cautious about UK devote to them? suggesting that we are in a state of grace. The Minister The Arab spring has shown the huge importance of has visited countries in north Africa on many occasions, citizen journalism, with the impact of tweeting, blogging and one challenge when visiting such countries is the and video footage. Such journalists often have a wider suggestion from individuals that perhaps our own record impact than official journalism, so we need to be conscious bears closer scrutiny. We need to bear that in mind when that those individuals need to be included in any we talk to other countries, because they can quote consideration of the protection of journalists. It is examples to us that show that we have not behaved— important for us to support them in every way we can. sometimes in the not too recent past—in the way that perhaps we should. The hon. Member for South Swindon made an interesting suggestion about the legal profession: UK The debate is about human rights in relation to lawyers taking a more active individual role in developing professionals, and I thought about that focus. Overnight, democracies. I would be interested to hear what the I heard about the dreadful news about the death of a Minister has to say on that and to discuss it. When US State Department official in Benghazi in Libya, and individuals are having difficulties in finding jobs, engaging that brings home to us the dangers that exist for with such organisations as the Bar Council and the Law professionals who are working in a representative capacity. Society, developing contacts with developing democracies What is distinct about the people in the group that we and stressing the importance of the rule of law, perhaps are discussing today is that they put themselves in through the use of young lawyers, would be a useful a position of danger for the benefit of others, and it way forward. We have heard of the threat to young is a fundamental part of a developing democracy to lawyers in places such as Columbia and Nepal. The acknowledge and accept that someone in a representative situation is extremely concerning, and those lawyers capacity may or may not share the political views of always face pressure and attacks. What action is the UK those whom they represent. It is important to communicate taking to develop and maintain relationships with lawyers that concept. The hon. Gentleman is nodding. As a in countries where we know they are at risk and to barrister, he will be familiar with that idea, but individuals ensure that embassy staff visit lawyers and provide from other jurisdictions do not always recognise it. support to them? Do the UK Government have any There have been a large number of high-profile cases, plans to provide support and technical expertise to some of which have already been referred to. On business, Governments and lawyers, to increase the understanding the country that crops up is Russia. We have heard of the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary reference to Mr Gordievsky, Platon Lebedev and the and to investigate human rights violations? Magnitsky case and the profound impact such cases Health professionals are important and have been have on democratic culture in Russia. The perception of mentioned. In Bahrain, about which we have heard, British business of the inadequacies in the jurisdiction doctors and nurses were accused of criminal activity. and the courts in Russia is a real issue that crops up in What began with the denial of access to medical treatment the conversations that I have with British companies for injured protesters in February 2011 ended with that invest in Russia. The Russian Government should security forces attacking hospitals, including the largest recognise that these cases are important and profoundly public hospital in Bahrain. How are the Government affect the perception of Russia in the United Kingdom. working with the International Committee of the Red A free press is fundamental and central to a democracy. Cross to support its project, “Health Care in Danger”, Journalists throughout the world pay a high price to help ensure the safety of health care workers during to secure information about wars and corruption. armed conflict? 91WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 92WH

The hon. Gentleman’s report mentions progress made issue, not just for Her Majesty’s Opposition, but for UK in Bahrain. I am afraid that this week’s news of the Government parties. Such important matters weigh rejection of appeals by individuals such as Mahdi Abu prominently on the minds of parliamentarians. Deeb, the former president of the Bahrain Teachers The UK has a great tradition in such areas, and we Association, is a serious setback to hopes of reform. want to go out there and speak clearly and authoritatively The UK Government have, to my knowledge, been on human rights issues. To do that, we must ensure that quiet on the issue. What steps is the Minister taking in when difficult issues arise, we take a principled and connection with the rejections of those appeals this correct decision, although at times doing so may be week? difficult, and make it clear that we will not accept the The National Union of Teachers in the UK does suppression of human rights to commercial interests. much work to raise awareness of the challenges faced This has been a useful, timely debate. I thank the by teachers, as hon. Members have mentioned. According hon. Member for South Swindon again for initiating it to the NUT, the situation for teachers in Colombia, and look forward to the Minister’s reply. Ethiopia and Iran is of special concern. In 2011, the Iranian authorities attempted, as we have also heard, to 10.45 am shut down the Baha’i Institute for Higher Education. What action are the UK Government taking to protect The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign the human rights of teachers? and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, Mr Howarth. I should like to ask the Minister about Government I commend all colleagues who spoke during the debate. policy relating to human rights more generally. I am There is a fair number of lawyers among us. I appreciate pleased that the Government have carried on the previous the way that my hon. Friend the Member for South Government’s initiative and published an annual human Swindon (Mr Buckland) introduced the debate, for rights report, and I welcome their words on human which I congratulate him. I also congratulate him on rights. But the hon. Member for South Swindon mentioned the work done by his commission—by all members of lip service, which registered in my mind. We must avoid his commission—in bringing this matter forward. That paying lip service to these issues. Difficult decisions and thorough piece of work was reflected in the thoroughness questions arise. of his speech, which highlighted such a number of We learned in a Foreign Affairs Committee report issues. I am pleased that we had the time to allow that earlier this year and from other corners, including Human exposition. Rights Watch, that there is a developing perception It is difficult to respond to everything. Once again, that, in some instances, the UK Government deem my friend and colleague, the hon. Member for Wrexham commercial relationships more important than dealing (Ian Lucas) is like an erudite machine gun, asking a with human rights issues. As a former Business Minister, series of questions that I could not possibly respond to I am aware of the conflicts that can arise, as mentioned in 15 minutes, unless I dealt solely with those, but I shall by the former Foreign and Commonwealth Office Minister, try to answer some. Everything that he mentions is the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne) in important and anything that I cannot deal with today, I evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee, when he will find a way of dealing with. The same goes for other recognised that, although there is no inherent contradiction colleagues who contributed. between business and human rights, short-term tensions The report was particularly valuable because it did can arise. One example of that is the UK Government’s not just say that the world is a bad place, which we decision to take no stance on the Bahrain grand prix— know. It contains specific recommendations for us to Bahrain has been mentioned a number of times today—in work on, some of which I will comment on now and stark contrast to the Leader of the Opposition who saw others that I shall have to respond to later. I appreciated the event adding to instability and conflict in Bahrain. that aspect of the report. Will the Minister update us on how the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is managing those short-term As colleagues know, and as the hon. Member for tensions between commercial interests and human rights? Wrexham rightly said—he has to put us on the spot—we Does he think that the UK Government’s stance on the take human rights values seriously, and they are in the Bahrain grand prix helped progress on human rights in forefront of the Government’s policy. It is clear that, Bahrain? although we live in a world of universal values, we do not live in a world of universal standards. That puts us In its report, the Foreign Affairs Committee emphasised in conflict with other states. Some states are greater the need for human rights to feature more significantly friends than others. We raise the issues and are conscious across the Government. Will the Minister give hon. of the conflicts that arise. There are various ways of Members an update of the progress the Foreign Office raising matters and bringing them forward: sometimes is making to ensure that UK Trade and Investment, the that is done publicly and openly and sometimes it is Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and done with increasing tempo if there is no reaction from UK Export Finance in particular take full account of the states with which we are engaged. Some states have human rights in their dealings? appalling human rights records and others have generally British embassies are rightly placing the emphasis on good records, but there are blips. trade, investment and business abroad. What emphasis We try to take people as we find them, but the House are they placing on important human rights issues, such can be assured that we raise the subject of values, as those raised today? I do not expect a full breakdown sometimes in difficult circumstances. I will mention one from the Minister now of the number of individuals in or two specifics. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that embassies who are dedicated to working on human we always have to do this in the spirit of humility. Our rights, but, as we have heard today, this is an important record is not spotless, whether in past years or more 93WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 94WH

[Alistair Burt] In answer to the questions on engagement asked by the hon. Member for Wrexham and others, our overseas recently. Only today the House will deal with the missions work with EU colleagues locally to support Hillsborough incident and I suspect that the state will human right defenders, as well as with colleagues from be dealing with some degree of regret about how it other like-minded embassies. In line with the guidelines, handled that. In recent times we have had to deal with FCO staff regularly meet human right defenders, including Bloody Sunday. We do go to states on the basis of lawyers and journalists, we raise specific instances of saying, “Don’t just look at what we say, look at our abuse or detention with governments and we often experience of how we’ve dealt with things well or poorly. speak out publicly. We try constantly to learn from our past and appreciate As we look at the development of democracy in areas that, in places, there has been pain. But equally we have such as north Africa, it is important that we take the a lot to be proud of in respect of what we stand for and opportunities of our Arab partnership programme to what we work for.”Getting that put together is important. engage specialists such as the Bar Council, the Law The report is about professionals and it is right to Society and others that might have specialist information recognise that and mention that some types of work to impart, and that is what we seek to do. The whole raise particular issues of danger and risk. However, in benefit of the Arab partnership is that it is not only no way is the report intended to be exclusive; it highlights government to government but involves civil society the concerns of a particular group of people who work, working together. Increasingly, we will look at opportunities but neither my hon. Friend nor the Government, nor to do just that. any Member of the House would minimise the fact that An example of our work is the diplomatic effort and human rights issues affect many. visible support that the United Kingdom, working with I assure the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin EU and other partners, has given to human rights Horwood), who made a sound contribution as usual, defenders in Belarus, a country mentioned in the report that of course we recognise that migrant workers have and the debate. Our actions have maintained pressure the same human rights as everyone else. Last year, the on the authorities to take account of their human rights Government strongly endorsed the UN guiding principles obligations. on business and human rights and, while they do not To provide urgent practical support to human right deal explicitly with migrant workers, they provide an defenders, in 2011 we joined other international donors opportunity to continue work in that field. The Department in establishing Lifeline, the embattled NGO assistance for International Development also has some such projects fund, which aims to provide emergency assistance and as well. It is right to raise the issue, but the House small grants worldwide to civil society that is facing should be in no doubt: we do not consider the report to increasing repression and harassment because of work be exclusive and we recognise the rights and issues in promoting human rights. facing many others. Let me turn to medics and, in conjunction with them, I hope that I have made it clear that the Government Bahrain. The commission’s report details human rights see the promotion of human rights as an integral part violations against medical personnel. UK policy is clear of UK foreign policy. We promote human rights because that it is unacceptable for medical professionals to it is right to do so—right because we are a nation with a suffer violation of their human rights for fulfilling their conscience, but also right because it is in our fundamental ethical responsibilities. UK diplomats observe trials of interests to do so. human rights defenders and, where appropriate, we seek to observe the trials of medical professionals as I thank the commission for highlighting the human well. rights violations that business people and professionals I shall look at the other recommendations, but let me suffer as a result of their work. As the report acknowledges, say one or two things in particular. The hon. Member often such groups and individuals suffer attack precisely for Wrexham mentioned health care in general and the because they use their positions to protect and promote work of the International Committee of the Red Cross. the rights of others. They are human rights defenders, We are a strong supporter of the “Health care in and the defence of such groups and their rights is danger” initiative, we are supportive of ICRC efforts to important to the Government. I appreciate how my protect health care workers in armed conflict and we hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon constructed share the ICRC analysis that violence against health the report thematically, and his speech likewise, so let workers and infrastructure is among the most serious me make my response in the same way. contemporary humanitarian challenges—we are active The commission’s report recommends that the UK in discussing those matters with the ICRC. should provide visible support to the rule of law and The report details the situation in Bahrain, which has lawyers, and that we should ensure that our embassies been raised again today—it is complex, as the House and high commissions are implementing the EU guidelines knows and I have spoken of it before. Bahrain is a on human rights defenders. We thank the commission society that, over time, has sought to make political for that recommendation and we agree that providing reforms in the context of the country’s difficulties between support to promote the rule of law is important. The Sunni, Shi’a, monarchy and others, which came to a Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth head in the 2011 crisis and how that was handled. Our Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond current perception is that the position remains patchy. (Yorks) (Mr Hague), gave a speech on that very topic in There is no doubt that the kingdom’s effort to hold a The Hague in July this year, highlighting UK policy and public inquiry and to produce a report in public that our work. The UK strongly supports the EU guidelines criticised the Government was unique in the region, and on human rights defenders, which are a crucial part of a series of recommendations has been followed. I have a that work. copy of the ICRC follow-up unit’s report of July 2012, 95WH Human Rights Violations12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Human Rights Violations 96WH which is solid reading, but it cannot be seen without grand prix going ahead necessarily set back anything in recognising the intent to deal with the issues. It is not, Bahrain. There was an opportunity for peaceful protest however, complete, and nor is the implementation of in the days leading up to the grand prix, which was recommendations. observed by the Bahraini authorities—those protests Crucially, progress depends on political dialogue in were allowed—and only the violent protests were Bahrain. Recent efforts were made over Ramadan by subsequently shown on television in this country. The the Government to engage with opposition parties, process of getting the grand prix held, which was a which also have a responsibility. Violence on the streets Bahraini decision, demonstrated that it could be held—an has increased, as has the level of violence—pipe bombs, opportunity for comment was provided, and then the the discovery of two bomb-making factories—but violence country went back to its other work. So I am not sure will not help. The opposition must be clear, publicly and that we should have taken the course recommended by privately, as it has been, that it does not condone such the hon. Gentleman and made remarks—we did the violence. Opposition engagement in conversation with right thing. government authorities will help. Both sides have work I must move fairly swiftly if I am not to lose the rest to do. The House can be assured that we take that of my time. As soon as I can find my remarks, I shall be seriously, and we use our opportunity of representation able to continue. The problem with too many papers is to make our case and to keep the kingdom moving in that I have now lost the text. the direction that it has plainly set out for further reform, although we recognise that that is patchy and that there are human rights and other difficulties. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: We do not hear much about We were disappointed at the Bahraini civilian court human rights abuses in one or two countries such as decision last week to uphold the sentences of 13 political North Korea, but the commission took some horrific activists in the country. We welcomed the decision to evidence. Will the Minister say something about regimes review the cases in a civilian court, as recommended by that have some of the worst human rights records? the Bahrain independent commission of inquiry, but we remain concerned about the strength of the convictions. Reports at the time those individuals were sentenced, Alistair Burt: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for which were acknowledged by the BICI, suggested that his remarks. We need to ensure that, in picking out some individuals had been abused in detention, denied individual countries, we recognise that there are many access to legal counsel and coerced into confession. We other countries that we could discuss. My hon. Friend urge the Bahraini Government to ensure that the human mentioned the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, rights and freedoms of their citizens are fully upheld at but we could also deal with Iran in great detail in all times. We are aware that the defendants can now relation to today’s debate. We remain deeply concerned appeal to the Court of Cassation and we expect that about human rights issues in Iran—I am grateful to my process to be conducted thoroughly and with urgency. hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) We will continue to watch the appeal process. for mentioning those—where the record is disgraceful. Regarding the medical staff, none is currently behind We make regular comments on trials and on the various bars and a further appeal is pending. Some sentences professions involved. were repealed when the cases came from the military to I spoke about journalists only recently in a public civilian courts, which we welcome. Nabeel Rajab remains statement. We support world press freedom day, and behind bars and his case will now be heard on 27 September. that is something that we will continue to advance. We The appeal by the Bahraini teachers will be heard later take a particular interest in journalists online, recognising in September, and we expect that process to be conducted the dangers to them, while the other professions dealt thoroughly and with urgency while ensuring that due with include trade unionists and teachers. The concerns legal process is followed. in Colombia that were mentioned worry us deeply—we On the grand prix, I do take issue with the hon. have spoken about that—and we remain concerned Member for Wrexham. It was a matter for the Bahraini about the human rights situation in Moscow. I shall authorities, and I am not sure that the process of the update the House from time to time as issues occur. 97WH 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Petrol Prices (Wyre Forest) 98WH

Petrol Prices (Wyre Forest) and so on—is to compete with the lowest price within a specific radius of the petrol station concerned, and for Tesco that is 3 miles. 11 am At this point in my speech I intended to make a few Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I am pleased to lame jokes at the expense of the petrol retailers, and to see the new Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my jest that perhaps “every little helps”, but the only people hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen who are really helped are Tesco’s shareholders. However, Hammond) in his place. He has long been a friend of I updated my research yesterday, and to my utter delight Wyre Forest. Four or five years ago, when he was it seems that the pressure that I have been putting on shadow Transport Minister, he visited Wyre Forest to petrol retailers locally has been heeded. As of yesterday, inaugurate a campaign to save a local driving test centre instead of a 6p premium in Wyre Forest by petrol in the face of swingeing cuts in the number of centres retailers within a 25 mile radius, which was the situation under the previous Government. I am delighted that his I faced a year ago, the substantive premium is now just predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel 1p, although there is a rogue cheap supplier at ASDA in Hempstead (Mike Penning) was instrumental in resolving Dudley which charges 2p less than in Wyre Forest. that inequity, and that we will have a driving test centre as a result of the Department for Transport’s sterling Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): I congratulate my work. hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He says This debate is specifically about fuel prices in Wyre that there is a 1p price range in our region, but will he Forest, but the issue affects every rural and even semi-rural comment on the fact that in Cardiff this morning, community throughout the country. The Backbench petrol was 3p cheaper than in Redditch? Business Committee has secured a debate on the matter in the Chamber later this week, and it could be argued Mark Garnier: I am grateful to my hon. Friend and that I might have done better to save this speech for that neighbour, who is also a member of the Welsh Affairs debate. I am sure that there will be a huge amount of Committee, and takes a keen interest in what happens interest in Thursday’s debate, and I am eager to use the in Wales. I will come to that anomaly between cities and opportunity today to put on the record my experience smaller rural towns and semi-rural areas, which is a in trying to resolve the problems facing my constituents, great problem. and the apparent stonewalling by the fuel retailers, particularly the big chains. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman The debate is about the inequity facing Wyre Forest has mentioned a topical and important matter in the and other rural communities. It is about how my area I represent in Northern Ireland, which is a rural constituents have been charged more at the pumps in community. He referred to demand and pressure in Kidderminster, Stourport and Bewdley than those of urban and rural areas. Some of my constituents must hon. Members in larger urban and suburban centres. travel long distances to get to work because of where Let me put the matter into context. Since I was elected, the work is, and may spend £50 or £60 a week just on I have been contacted regularly by constituents who petrol and diesel. Does that not underline the issue for have noticed that they can buy fuel at up to 6p per litre many people in rural communities, where we need a cheaper in nearby Wolverhampton, Dudley and even price structure that is achievable, fair and affordable? Bromsgrove than they can locally. Around a year ago, I contacted the retailers asking Mark Garnier: The hon. Gentleman hits the nail on for an explanation. I wanted to know why they saw fit the head. People living in rural communities are doubly to overcharge my constituents. Their reply, after cutting penalised. They face not only high prices, but higher through the various explanations of Nectar points and mileage because they probably have worse access to price reductions depending on the contents of a shopping public services. I will continue to make that point throughout bag, was that prices are set locally and that that is how my speech. The hon. Gentleman was absolutely right to retailers best compete with each other. I thought that raise it on behalf of his constituents. that was fair enough, but as I was eager to understand I said that fuel retailers have cut the premium locally their pricing models further, I contacted local retail as a result of my pressure, but there may other reasons, managers and asked to meet them to talk about fuel not least that last week the Office of Fair Trading prices. They said, “Ah. We just collect local data and announced an inquiry into fuel prices. That welcome send it to regional price setters who are responsible for U-turn by the OFT is important because pressure on determining the price.” I then asked to see the regional households is, as we all know, incredibly high. It is price setters, at which point I was met with stony tough enough having to pay high fuel prices because of silence. It seems that fuel retailers are reluctant to talk currency and commodity prices, but when duty and tax about the prices they charge locally. are added, and then local factors, households face a However—credit where credit is due—Tesco agreed toxic mix of costs. to meet me, and Emma Reynolds, its Government relations Despite local success, a number of serious factors guru came to see me recently to explain its strategy. She must be taken into account. First, special offers provided told me a great deal about the special offer on fuel by the supermarkets do not constitute a fuel price prices that it has introduced, and many retailers certainly management policy. If anything, unreasonably high fuel provide special fuel price offers to customers. A 50% prices locally provide an opportunity for offer-making. reduction is available on Tesco fuel for those who buy a Although the big retailers say that helping the consumer specific range of items, and all retailers have a form of is the reason for making offers, we all know that it is offer. She also told me that the general pricing strategy about one thing: competition between retailers. Tesco is of the fuel retailers—Tesco, ASDA, Sainsbury, Texaco against ASDA, and against Sainsbury and the rest of 99WH Petrol Prices (Wyre Forest)12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Petrol Prices (Wyre Forest) 100WH them. One offers loyalty points; another offers a discount With fewer retailers in a specific area, there is a if a minimum amount is spent in the supermarket greater demand against available supply than would be alongside the petrol station; a third will discount fuel seen in bigger conurbations, so the price is inevitably prices if certain items are bought, and on it goes. higher. In this instance, local factors push the price Such offers are marketing plugs that associate the along the price/demand curve against consumer interests. retailers’ names with what seems to be a special offer. I It is important for big retail chains to have such areas of am sure that some offers are taken up, but the reality is high pricing. If they are to ensure a sustainable average that people refuel when the needle is on empty, and not price of fuel across the whole marketplace—across the when they have just done the weekly shop. In any event, whole country—they must ensure that areas of low such offers may seem enticing, but when we were paying pricing, such as cities, are balanced by areas of high 6p a litre more in Wyre Forest, the discount was worth pricing. That penalises rural regions in favour of urban 6p less than in neighbouring Wolverhampton and Dudley areas, which is very unfair, as I think we would all agree. because the discount was from a higher level. The If someone lives in Birmingham, London, Cardiff, or fundamental problem was always high local prices in any other city, they will have easy access to far more Wyre Forest and other rural and semi-rural communities. efficient local public transport infrastructures. The Secondly, the pricing model adopted by supermarkets availability of a sensible local public transport service and fuel retailers favours those in big cities. Fuel retailers also provides competition to petrol retailers; they are try to be the cheapest within a three-mile radius or competing not only against each other for customers, thereabouts. In a large conurbation such as Birmingham but against local public transport. However, if someone and the black country, many petrol stations will create lives in a rural or semi-rural area, such as Wyre Forest, a chain within 3 miles of one another. In that instance, a their local public transport is neither as accessible nor petrol retailer east of Birmingham who decides to have as user-friendly. They will need to use their own car far a few days undercutting the local market to try to more than their urban-based cousin. They will have stimulate more demand for their product will create a little practical choice, and will have to buy fuel to run ripple that spreads across the whole city and probably their car. That lack of choice helps drive up local fuel into the black country. Given that there is a significant prices, doubly penalising the high-mileage rural commuter. number of petrol retailers in that area, there will always be healthy price competition, stimulated by occasional What am I trying to achieve with this morning’s but regular mini price wars. debate? First, I want yet again to highlight the inequity However, in districts such as Wyre Forest, Strangford of the pricing policies of big supermarkets and fuel and Redditch there are far fewer petrol stations but, retailers. We all know about that issue, and many of my importantly, around areas such as Wyre Forest, there is colleagues raise it again and again. This is another push a desert of petrol stations, rather like a doughnut, so the in the effort to get big retail chains to heed the plight of only price competition will be within the locality itself. rural consumers. People living in rural communities With far fewer retailers in that closed area, price competition should not be used to subsidise the fuel bills of town is lower, and it is suggested that some of the big retail and city dwellers. chains have deliberately undercut local independent Secondly, I want to appeal to the retail chains to suppliers to drive them out of business, ensuring less adopt a more pragmatic pricing policy. I accept that a competition on pricing. That is anecdotal, and there is national pricing policy would probably not work, but no evidence to support it, but it is what people talk using a rigid three-mile radius is probably too tight in about. certain areas. I would like to see a pricing policy that never allows a district to become isolated within its own Jim Shannon: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some pricing area. A pricing link that jumps significant gaps retailers sell petrol and diesel with no profit, and perhaps is needed. That can be achieved either by having a larger at a loss, just to keep the small independent retailers radius across the country, or by having a radius that out? takes regional petrol station density into account.

Mark Garnier: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s As I mentioned, the OFT last week announced its intervention. In Wyre Forest, the pricing policy of a investigation, which I welcome. It will look at a range of local, independent retailer is to make a 3p per litre areas. The fact that prices go up pretty quickly with oil profit on the cost at which they buy their petrol and price rises but are rather slow to come down is a key diesel. That is interesting, because for a great period, concern, but I am particularly keen for that investigation that retailer was substantially undercutting big chain also to look into regionalised price anomalies. retailers, and as a result, I recommended that my I am grateful to the Minister for his time and attendance constituents visited it, because it provided the best deal. this morning. As a free marketer, I am reluctant to ask However, when I checked its price again, that retailer is him to legislate on fuel price equalisation across regions. now 3p or 4p more expensive. The big chain retailers are Fair competition must be the answer, and if the competition almost certainly buying wholesale fuel from the same turns out to be unfair, or evidence emerges of local wholesale outlet, and they are probably paying the same cartels, I sincerely hope that the OFT will uncover that amount for that fuel. Therefore, if Callow Oils is still and deal with it appropriately. The experience in Wyre adopting its pricing policy of 3p more per litre, it would Forest, where it appears that local pressure has brought indicate that the big chains are running at a loss. It the reward of better local pricing, suggests that retail would be interesting to find out more—if the retailers chains might listen, even if they are reluctant to get answered my telephone calls, I could find out. I think, together for a meeting—notwithstanding Tesco. Sainsbury’s, however, that the big retailers may well be working at a take note. loss to stimulate local demand. 101WH Petrol Prices (Wyre Forest)12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Petrol Prices (Wyre Forest) 102WH

[Mark Garnier] The Government are acutely aware that the high price of oil is a burden for people at this difficult time. The Minister, of course, has a far louder voice than I As a result of our actions, motorists are being helped, or many of my Back-Bench colleagues, and I appeal to and frankly, if that help had not been in place, whatever him to use every opportunity at his disposal to give the price pertaining—whether petrol is more expensive petrol retailers a regular prod to ensure that the plight in Wyre Forest than in Birmingham, or in Redditch of rural dwellers is taken into account. than in Cardiff or Strangford—the reality is that the price would be 10p higher than it is now. The existing 11.14 am situation is a direct result of the Government’s action. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Jim Shannon: Even allowing for the Government’s (Stephen Hammond): Although it is a surprise to be here steps, which I very much appreciate, in 2008, the price this morning, Mr Howarth, it is a pleasure to serve of a barrel of oil was $147, and the price at the pump under your chairmanship, on what is my first outing was £1.04 a litre. In 2012, the price is about $100 per representing the Government, and to respond to the barrel and the price is £1.39 a litre. I am not a debate secured by my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre mathematician, but even taking into account those extra Forest (Mark Garnier). I thank him for his kind words. charges, that does not add up. I know that the responsibility I remember well the day in Wyre Forest, although he does not lie with the Minister, but it illustrates to many forgot our trip on the steam train, in addition to the of people inside and outside the House that oil companies driving centre. I am pleased, too, to see my hon. Friend are making exorbitant profits, and there is a need for the Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley) and the hon. the regulator to take control. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) here today, as it shows the interest in this matter from communities beyond Wyre Forest. Stephen Hammond: The hon. Gentleman has put an interesting point about mathematics on the record. He I am surprised to be here this morning, because the tempts me to pre-empt the OFT investigation, which I debate has been misallocated to the Department for would be ill-advised to do. I advise him and other hon. Transport. Many of the comments made by my hon. Members present to see what that investigation says. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest were about competition None the less, I hope that he takes the point that the and fuel price policies, but neither is the Department’s Government are taking action because we recognise the responsibility. Therefore, I apologise if it is not appropriate burden of cost. In a moment, I will say a little about the for me to answer all his points, as the responsibility to Government’s concerns in relation to market transparency, do so lies with the Department for Business, Innovation because that is the line that he is going down, and I and Skills. understand that. I was pleased, but not surprised, to hear my hon. Friend say that he is a free marketer and that he does The road fuel retail market in the UK has always not wish to see the market regulated. As he knows, the been an open market, not an economically regulated petrol retail market is not economically regulated now. market. The Government consider that to be very much As with standards and competition policy, there are in the wider interests of consumers. Regulation is legal restrictions, and it is for the Office of Fair Trading undertaken by independent competition authorities. to investigate breaches and enforce those. I will come on However, my predecessor made the point clearly that to the OFT’s investigation in a moment, but clearly, the the Government are concerned about the lack of existing situation is right, and the market operates on transparency in the market. As has been expressed not that basis. Like my hon. Friend, I do not wish to see only in this debate but more widely, many people are economic regulation. concerned about fuel prices. They are concerned that the recent reductions in crude oil prices are not being This debate goes to the heart of the fact that, in this seen at the pumps either at all or as quickly as motorists time of economic difficulty, high fuel prices are putting would like. a lot of pressure on households and businesses. Businesses are working hard, as are the Government, to ensure that The Government have made their position very clear. motoring remains affordable for all. We have taken The previous Secretary of State for Transport, my right extensive action to ensure that motorists are supported. hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), In the 2011 Budget, the Government cut the fuel duty spoke several times about motoring costs, as did the by 1p a litre, and we have scrapped the previous fuel Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills duty escalator, replacing it with a fair fuel stabiliser. and the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate That mechanism, which was effective from Budget day Change. We have made the point that it is in our mutual 2012, is designed to ensure that the burden of higher oil interest for motorists and businesses to be confident prices is better shared between oil companies and motorists that they are being treated fairly. That is important for through the increased taxation of oil and gas production the long-term benefit, and that point has been made when oil prices are high. When oil prices are above the several times. trigger price of £45 a barrel, fuel duty will increase by When wholesale costs are coming down, those reductions the retail prices index only. When they are below that should be passed on transparently and without unnecessary trigger, it will increase by RPI plus 1%, but that happens delay. Certainly, the aim of the fair fuel stabiliser is to only when prices fall below the trigger point for a ensure that action as well. Many members of the sustained period. My hon. Friend will remember that, Government—the previous Secretary of State for Transport in the autumn statement 2011, the Government deferred and other Secretaries of State—have made the point the 3p a litre fuel duty increase until August 2012. In that motorists have the right to expect that when there June this year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced are changes in the crude oil price—they can see those that that increase would be further postponed. changes on the evening news—they will be reflected at 103WH Petrol Prices (Wyre Forest)12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Petrol Prices (Wyre Forest) 104WH the pumps. There is a duty on the fuel retailers to reflect did so in his speech—that it is right and proper that the that. The Department for Transport is on the record as OFT gets on with its job and identifies whether there saying that we want not only to see that happening, but are competition issues overall in the sector or in parts to see it happening more obviously, so that there is of it. greater transparency. The Government have made it clear that we fully The previous Secretary of State put pressure on the support the call for information on the road fuel retail fuel retailers to ensure that there was some transparency market. We clearly recognise the importance of fair in their pricing policies. I was delighted to hear from my pricing to cost-conscious motorists. It is clear that the hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest that at least OFT has been given a brief to explore what are a one of the major retailers of petrol was prepared to number of claims about how the road fuels sector is engage with him; it is to that retailer’s credit that it did operating. I congratulate my hon. Friend, because almost so. Of course, being a financier of some repute in his everything that he spoke about in his speech is in the previous life before first entering the House, he will terms of reference for the OFT’s work. That is why I recognise that those are quite normal pricing strategies. made the points about collusion, transparency, price Whether his constituents see them as equitable or fair is fixing and driving out local independents. All those another question. He will recognise that what that points are explicitly set out in the OFT’s terms of retailer said to him was not that different from what can reference. be found in almost any economics manual. The Government have asked the OFT to call for As I said, the Government are clear that there needs evidence, and it is getting on with that. It has said that it to be transparency in this market and that we need to will publish its key findings in January, alongside see that transparency being enacted. We also need to be recommendations for action if it believes that to be clear that the industry is giving confidence to consumers. necessary. It will obviously be appropriate at that time That is why both the Department for Transport and the for the Government to make some response. It would Department of Energy and Climate Change wrote to clearly be inappropriate for the Government to pre-empt several industry organisations, challenging them to ensure the outcome of that consideration and to speculate on that there is transparency and encouraging them to what the next steps might be. Therefore, if my hon. work with the Government to take that forward. Friend will indulge me and perhaps speak to the relevant Department in January about the outcome of the OFT’s The continuing and increasing public concern about work, I hope that he will get satisfaction. It is vital to the inability of some fuel retailers directly to reflect the the Government that we increase consumer confidence reductions in crude oil prices in pump prices is the in this area. That is why the Government have asked the reason why on 5 September the OFT, which is, as my OFT to investigate. It is why Secretaries of State have hon. Friend knows, the independent authority with been putting on pressure to ensure that the wholesalers responsibility for reviewing markets and enforcing the ensure that there is retail price transparency. legal standards that relate to competition in this market as well as other markets, issued a call for evidence to I again congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this help it to identify whether there are competition issues important debate. I have no doubt that the message and a lack of transparency. about his standing up yet again for his constituents in Wyre Forest will ring through Wyre Forest tonight via My hon. Friend mentioned that he thought that there the local press, and I congratulate him on that. might be anecdotal evidence of collusion, price undercutting and an attempt to drive out local independent retailers. 11.26 am He would therefore want to recognise—I think that he Sitting suspended. 105WH 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 106WH

Aerospace Industry framework for developing effective policy are reflected in the recent inward investment decisions made by businesses based abroad. [MR ANDREW TURNER in the Chair] Thirdly, there is a spirit of co-operation in the industry between management and the work force. I despair at 2.30 pm some of the rhetoric that I hear from the Tory right about fire-at-will policies. Such policies will undermine Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to appear successful employment relations in successful businesses under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Turner. and do nothing to improve skills development. I urge This is the first opportunity that I have had to welcome the Minister to make early visits to plants such as the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) to his Halewood on Merseyside, where the close working new position as Minister. His closeness to the Chancellor relationship between trade unions and management is has clearly paid off—congratulations to him. creating an effective workmanlike atmosphere in which Aerospace has been much in the news of late, particularly real progress is being made. with the ongoing debate on airport capacity in the United Kingdom. My immediate motivation in asking Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Will for the debate was that the discussion on airport capacity the Minister extend his visit to Jaguar Land Rover, has largely excluded mention of the importance of the where the trade unions recently played a big part in UK aerospace industry. I hope that deficiency will be securing more than 1,000 jobs in the west midlands? addressed and remedied this afternoon. The UK aerospace That was no mean feat for trade union co-operation. industry is a great national success. We are the premier aerospace manufacturer in Europe and second only to the United States worldwide. We hold 17% of global Ian Lucas: Absolutely. That is an excellent point. In market share, which generated £24.2 billion of UK his new role, I am sure that the Minister will see such revenue in 2011—75% of which was exports. examples if he visits those factories and others across the country. I have two fundamental points about our world position in aerospace. First, it has been very hard won. It is the result of long-term policy and investment decisions Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): I made by Governments of different political persuasions congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. and by the sector itself over many years. Secondly, it is a The aerospace industry is vital for the UK economy. It valuable resource. Developed and developing economies has thrived through a combination of good management, are ambitious to eat into our market share. China and supportive trade unions and long-term government support. Russia see the importance of the aerospace industry Does he agree that we should learn lessons from the and are anxious to move into it. Companies such as the success of the aerospace industry and draw on them to Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China and the build a comprehensive industrial policy in Government? United Aircraft Corporation are ambitious to take part of the expanding world market. Ian Lucas: I agree with everything that the hon. I have read “Reach for the skies”, and I must say that Gentleman says. An important thing that industry and it is an excellent document. A civil servant once told me Government can do together is identify deficiencies in that he did not think that a change of Government the UK and devise policy to address them. Supply chain made much difference; I would not quite go along with development has been identified as a difficulty that that. The document is impressive and a welcome template needs to be addressed in both the automotive and for the future of our aerospace industry—as a former aerospace sectors. I am pleased that the UK aerospace aerospace Minister, I want to put that on record. It is partnership is following that broad structure, which has persuasive, and in preparing for the debate, I spoke to a been successful in the automotive sector. I hope that large number of representatives from the industry, and the successful approach will continue. Will the Minister it is striking how widely supported it is by those to confirm that he will act as the joint chair of the partnership whom I spoke. with Marcus Bryson of GKN? Will that reflect The document owes a lot to the model the previous the Government’s commitment to the success of the Government established for the UK automotive industry. partnership? The establishment of the Automotive Council made the In passing, I should mention that I am grateful to UK the investment destination of choice for the world GKN for providing me with an Industry and Parliament automotive sector in the past five years, not only the Trust fellowship back in, I think, 2003-04. It gave me a past two. The recent announcements by Honda and great insight not only into the company and the aerospace BMW—trumpeted by the Prime Minister—followed industry more generally, but into the onset of globalisation, earlier decisions on investment by Nissan, General Motors its challenges and the work that a large manufacturing and Toyota, and are testament to the attraction of the company needs to do to deal with it. UK. In all my dealings with the aerospace sector, I have The Automotive Council has been a success for important been struck by how good it is at engaging with MPs—not reasons. First, it has buy-in at a very senior level from only local MPs, but anyone who shows an interest in the both Government and industry. Secondly, it has shown industry. It is keen to work with both Government and a capacity to identify the policy required and to implement Back Benchers to extend the appreciation of the industry. it. The most obvious example is the car scrappage The general public still have not got the fact that we are scheme, which the Government implemented quickly leaders in aerospace—I take part of the blame for that, and efficiently in response to a crisis in the automotive because I was the Minister for a year—so we need to sector in 2008-09. The long-term consequences of the repeat that fact consistently. 107WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 108WH

Airbus, which is next to my constituency, has been a goals for addressing the climate change challenge. As a great friend to me over many years. AgustaWestland nation, we have the advantage that we can produce has kept me informed about the exciting developments more fuel-efficient, lighter aircraft than anyone else, in the civil helicopter sphere in which it is involved. The and we should use that to increase the strength of our ADS group, as a collective organisation, works extremely industry. hard to promote the aerospace industry in the UK. There is, however, a threat. I am advised that China has suspended orders of 45 A330s from Airbus, which Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): My amounts to $10 billion of business. That might have a hon. Friend mentioned AgustaWestland. As shadow real impact on Airbus jobs across Europe and also act Defence Minister, I would say that British aerospace’s as a barrier to environmental progress. The aerospace enormous success and the respect that it is held in growth partnership must also work hard to identify the globally are extremely important to the defence sector. deficiencies that exist in the UK aerospace sector. The The commercial and defence sectors are put in separate industry is open about those deficiencies and wants to boxes—one does well and the other less well—but it is work with the Government to address them. vital that we have a strong commercial aerospace industry, Recent investment decisions—such as the one in June which in turn supports our defence needs. to shift the conversion of 14 A330 multi-role tanker transports from Cobham Aviation Services to Airbus Ian Lucas: That is indeed the case. My hon. Friend Military in Madrid, costing about 300 UK jobs—have makes a very good point about the importance of both sent out warning signs. It is important to appreciate the defence and the civil aerospace sectors. There will be why that is happening. There was the real worry about particularly difficult times, as there have been for the the failure of the UK to win a £13 billion military defence sector in the past couple of years, while the civil aircraft contract with India, which the French press aerospace sector is more buoyant. It is important to called have a very close relationship between those two arms of the sector to ensure long-term planning. “the biggest arms contract of all time in the subcontinent”. Aerospace is a growing sector. The aerospace growth The UK lost that contract. I hope that the aerospace partnership report states that growth partnership will consider key decisions made by international investors when such investments happen “growth in air travel has proved remarkably resilient”. and, if they go abroad, look at why they do so. It is forecast that that will continue, with 27,000 new large civil airliners needed by 2030. There are also Mr Jim Cunningham: Another issue that affects not extremely challenging climate change regulations in place, only the aerospace industry but manufacturing in general so air travel expansion will be coupled with demand is the law of unintended consequences. For example, the targets that will need to be met by technological advances. EU’s introduction of new financial regulations, even As a nation, we are well placed to address those though we all think that they are necessary, can mean—I challenges—for example, through the development of hope that the Minister will address this—that when composite technologies, leading to lighter, more fuel-efficient companies, such as manufacturing ones, borrow from a aircraft. We need to make sure that such commitments bank to hedge against changes in exchange rates and so are worldwide, so that we do not hand a competitive on, that can have a major impact because it affects their advantage to our competitors. We must ensure that the liquidity, which is a big concern in manufacturing at the UK industry’s advantages are not prejudiced in the moment. world market. One of the key issues facing UK aviation at present is Ian Lucas: Indeed it is. I am sure that the Minister the introduction of the EU emissions trading scheme. will address that point in his closing remarks. Please will the Minister confirm that the impact of the scheme on UK aviation is being assessed? What steps It is imperative to have the continuity that I hope we are the Government taking to ensure that the UK are seeing in aerospace policy taken forward from today. industry is not prejudiced by the introduction of that Above all, aerospace is a long-term business that needs scheme? long-term approaches from the Government and from industry. What is very encouraging about the aerospace growth partnership is that, as a Minister who had Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Does my hon. responsibility for aerospace in the previous Government, Friend accept that the aviation and aerospace industries it has so much in it that I am pleased to support. I am, have made great strides and great progress in cutting however, concerned about whether the Government as emissions compared with, for instance, shipping, where a whole buy into such an approach. Last weekend, the emissions are still very high and very little progress has Minister said: been made? The focus seems to be very much on aerospace, as if it was somehow the only polluter. “Deregulation and privatisation worked before”. Will he please clarify what particular deregulation he Ian Lucas: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He intends to apply to the aerospace industry, and how that knows the great Brian Fleet from Airbus very well. The will help Britain to compete? first time I met Brian in 2001, shortly after I was One identified weakness in UK aerospace is access to elected, I raised the issue of emissions, which took him finance. I take a contrary view to the UK Government slightly aback. He was able to give me a very good about the banking deregulation of the late 1980s, which response on the work that Airbus was doing back then was one reason why British banking has been so to combat the emissions challenge. That has come to unresponsive in its support for manufacturing companies. fruition with the A330—an incredibly impressive piece Banking deregulation since the late 1980s has reduced of engineering—and that project has very ambitious competition between banks, and the welcome recent 109WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 110WH

[Ian Lucas] ideology. That has been part of the problem and will certainly not help our aerospace industry to rise to the expansion of challenger banks is a development that challenges of the future. could assist supply-chain development in the UK. I am very pleased by what the Secretary of State has said 2.51 pm about a business bank that would build on the initiatives of the green investment bank—it would also build on Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate developing Labour policy—but such a bank must not the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) on securing just be a rebranding of existing funding mechanisms. this important debate and welcome the new Minister to Will the Minister say whether such a bank would be his role. His predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member able to raise capital to support the aerospace industry? for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk), was a strong and Those are all Government initiatives that business vocal advocate of the aerospace industry, and I hope has identified as necessary to address deficiencies in the that the Minister will become one, too. I apologise to banking market. That market, which has built up since him and other Members that I have to leave straight the 1980s, has produced a situation in which businesses, after my contribution, but I look forward to reading the especially smaller and medium-sized ones, have been debate and the Minister’s response at a later date. starved of investment. The advantage of the aerospace The aerospace industry is vital to Pendle’s manufacturing growth partnership is that it has identified a defect in base. I raised the subject during Business, Innovation the industry and is working in partnership with the and Skills questions last Thursday. In reply, the Secretary Government to address it. The last thing that the industry of State said: needs is a raft of soundbites borne out of the dogmatic “Aerospace is an excellent example of how Government and attachment to laissez-faire that the Secretary of State industry can work together to create growth and world-leading deprecated in the Chamber on Monday. industries.”—[Official Report, 6 September 2012; Vol. 549, c. 382.] The industry also needs an effective Department that The UK aerospace industry is the second largest in the not only says the right things, but does them, too. world. It is worth more than £24 billion and employs a Earlier, I mentioned the success of the car scrappage huge number of people in Pendle in highly skilled jobs scheme, and in aerospace there has been repayable in firms such as Euravia, Graham Engineering, the launch aid investment, which is a key factor in the Merc Engineering Group, PDS (CNC) Engineering, continued success of the British aerospace industry. Regal Precision Engineers, Rolls-Royce, T and R Precision Contrast that with what the Public Accounts Committee Engineering, Weston EU and Whitwam Precision said this week about the regional growth fund and the Components. role of this Government—that Last November, the hon. Member for Wolverhampton “the Committee was highly disappointed to find that so few final North East (Emma Reynolds) re-established the all-party approvals had been given and so few projects had actually started. The Committee was particularly concerned that with £1.4 billion parliamentary group on aerospace, and I was delighted set aside for the Regional Growth Fund, of the £470 million so to take on the minor role of treasurer. In June, we held a far paid out by Government, £364 million has been parked with meeting with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation intermediary bodies via endowments and a further £57 million and Skills, and I was encouraged by what he said about paid to other intermediaries. Only £60 million has been spent on Government support for the industry. front-line projects.” The broad picture both locally in Pendle and nationally is encouraging. I have visited most of the companies Mark Tami: The key to repayable launch aid investment that I just mentioned, and on the whole, they are doing is that it is repayable. Aid has been repaid, and the well and are positive about the future. Aerospace industry scheme has been very successful for companies such as exports rose by 15.6% in 2011 and the civil aerospace Airbus, but the Government have also made money on market is booming worldwide. it, so it makes sense all round. It is not only about the Pendle’s largest aerospace employer, Rolls-Royce, which money, but about the fact that the Government are employs more than 1,000 staff at its sites in Pendle, demonstrating to other Governments that they support recently reported record profits and an order book of companies such as Airbus. nearly £52 billion in its civil aerospace division. I took my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer Ian Lucas: Indeed. Airbus consistently says that the to the Barnoldswick site before the last general election scheme has been a great return on investment for the and look forward to my next visit there on 19 October. British taxpayer and that it has provided not only I echo what the hon. Member for Wrexham said payments in cash, but, over many years, jobs—including about the positive role of the trade unions. One concern high-skilled ones—training and careers for young people that was raised by Rolls-Royce trade union officials in regions such as north-east Wales, which my hon. at their last meeting with MPs here in Parliament—it Friend and I are honoured to represent. was also raised with me by my local trade union When Government funding is limited, it must be representatives—is the unforeseen consequences that efficiently and quickly applied. UK aerospace is a success. the EU’s reform of financial regulation could have on In “Reach for the skies” we have an agreed approach companies such as Rolls-Royce, and I could not agree across political divides that has been formulated by the more with them. industry to ensure that it remains a success, and it is set The Minister might be aware that, after the financial out in the aerospace growth partnership report. We now crisis, the G20 agreed that over-the-counter derivatives need continuity and concentration on swift implementation contracts should, if sufficiently standardised, be moved of policy. It would be a massive mistake to undermine to clearing houses and be reported to trade repositories. the shared vision of the future by applying outdated That poses real challenges for large non-financially 111WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 112WH based companies that utilise OTC derivatives for risk much more could be done to ensure that UK Trade and management purposes. That is particularly important Industry and the Ministry of Defence are focused and to the UK aerospace sector, because virtually all deals committed to supporting UK export companies, especially are done in US dollars. small and medium-sized businesses such as his own. In addition, he believes that it would be helpful to receive Mr Jim Cunningham: Does the hon. Gentleman agree tax incentives to help procure new technologies, skills that the issue affects not only aerospace but UK and expertise, which are essential for continuous growth. manufacturing, which is something that we are all trying I am aware that industry and the Government have to build up at the moment? He has touched on an formed the aerospace growth partnership to look at important issue. those issues and at what more can be done to support the industry.Will the Minister explain how that partnership Andrew Stephenson: This is a huge matter that will and other structured support can help SMEs such as affect all non-financially dominated companies and all the one run by Mr Mendoros? large-scale manufacturing companies. Using OTC In conclusion, the aerospace industry, which is vital derivatives allows companies to focus on development to Pendle, is doing incredibly well, with a growing and growth of the business and is a simple way of number of orders and jobs. However, more could be managing risks; it is simply good housekeeping. If the done to help SMEs with exports. As I have said in move goes ahead, it will not be long before companies previous debates on manufacturing, the long-term future such as Rolls-Royce will be looking to move their of the aerospace industry in the UK cannot be secured headquarters overseas. It is a crucial point, and I applaud without a long-term commitment to research and the trade unions for spending so much time trying to development and support for the supply chain. The raise it. Government have done a lot for the aerospace industry Turning back to my local area, the regional growth so far, but many of our international competitors are fund has had a positive effect. The Government have taking similar steps, so we need to be constantly striving agreed to fund the Regenerate Pennine Lancashire bid to stay ahead of the game. for an additional £7.5 million in business support and its accelerating business growth in Lancashire scheme is designed to meet the needs of local manufacturing 3pm small and medium-sized enterprises. Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): There was also a successful bid from the North West It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Aerospace Alliance, which I met last December to Mr Turner. I am delighted to speak in this important discuss the challenges that face the industry. It is currently debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member putting together a bid for a national aerospace supply for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) on securing it. I also want to chain centre that would be based in the enterprise zone take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister on at Samlesbury in Lancashire. Needless to say, I strongly his promotion. support the creation of such a centre in the north-west, As several hon. Members have already said, the UK’s even though it would not actually be in my constituency. aerospace industry is tremendously successful. It is an The regional growth fund announcements came just industry that we should be incredibly proud of. It is the two weeks after the Government said that they would largest aerospace industry in Europe, and globally we back the bid from the Visions Learning Trust to create a are second only to the US. In addition, huge growth in new £18 million university technical college in east aerospace is expected, particularly in the commercial Lancashire. The sponsors of the new UTC are Pendle sector. Therefore, it is no surprise that there is a great companies with large aerospace contracts, such as Graham deal of interest from Members from all parties in this Engineering and Weston EU, so the college will play a debate. As the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew key role in addressing the skills shortages faced by many Stephenson) mentioned, given that interest, I re-established local aerospace companies. the all-party group on aerospace a year ago. I would like All such developments come on top of issues that the to put on record our thanks to the Business Secretary Minister has previously talked about, such as cutting for addressing our last meeting. corporation tax, promoting exports and getting the I am sure that it will come as no surprise to Members banks lending again. However, there are some areas that my constituency has a vital aerospace presence. where the Government could go further. In advance of Indeed, Wolverhampton has a long and fascinating this debate, I spoke to Dennis Mendoros, the founder history of aviation and aerospace development. I will and managing director of Euravia—an aerospace company not attempt to recount it all in the time that I have based Kelbrook. It is a medium-sized business with a available today, but I will talk about one small nugget. global reach, and it won the Queen’s award for export in Although Sunbeam is better known for its motorcycles 2010. Mr Mendoros believes that the main issue that and world-beating cars—the first British car to win a has not been extensively discussed is the support that grand prix was a Sunbeam made in Wolverhampton—the should be provided to aerospace companies with a company first manufactured aircraft in Wolverhampton strong export record. in 1912 and made aircraft during the first world war. As many hon. Members will know, exports account Today, Wolverhampton is home to a significant and for nearly 75% of the UK aerospace turnover. None the thriving aerospace cluster, with Goodrich Actuation less, Mr Mendoros feels that UK export companies do Systems, which was recently bought out by UTC Aerospace not receive any real structured support from the Systems, being the biggest employer; indeed, Goodrich Government, whereas other countries, such as France, has taken on 150 new employees since the start of 2012. Singapore, and the USA have a structured national There are other aerospace companies in the city, such as strategy for aerospace development. He believes that Moog, Timken and HS Marston, which is part of 113WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 114WH

[Emma Reynolds] Member for Pendle has already mentioned today. Given the sheer growth of the industry and the existing skills Hamilton Sundstrand, a company that, like UTC Aerospace shortage, there is likely to be a cliff edge in five years’ Systems, is owned by United Technologies. So parts time, with an acute shortage of engineers, technicians for the world’s most high-tech and impressive civilian and skilled workers. Moreover, engineering graduates aircraft, such as the Boeing 787, Bombardier C series unfortunately do not always go into engineering jobs. and Airbus A380, are made in Wolverhampton. Beyond Some are attracted to the City and some are attracted Wolverhampton, the aerospace industry is vital to the not to the aerospace industry but to other industries. wider British economy, as hon. Members have already There is a real concern in the aerospace industry that it outlined. will not be able to maintain its global position if more Despite the vitality and success of the British aerospace engineers are not attracted to it in the years to come. industry, we must not be complacent about its future. The big names, such as Airbus, do not have trouble The whole aerospace industry is more global than ever finding apprentices. I spoke to a representative of Airbus before, and with that the British industry faces fierce earlier today who told me that the company received competition from the world’s largest economies. The 1,300 applications for 85 apprenticeship places, which is US aerospace industry remains the world’s largest, but quite astonishing. However, the big names are concerned it is worth noting that huge investment is being made in that it is sometimes more difficult to attract apprentices China and other emerging economies. The global and a sufficient number of skilled workers for the posts competition that the British aerospace industry faces that are advertised further down the supply chain. today is more fierce than ever before, and the competition I want to follow up the point that my hon. Friend the that it will face in the years to come will be of a different Member for Wrexham made about the EU’s emissions scale and magnitude to the competition that it has faced trading scheme. Aerospace companies are investing to in previous years. reduce the emissions that their aircraft produce and are Continuity of policy is therefore imperative. I want to producing ever-lighter and more fuel-efficient aircraft, make that point strongly. We need cross-party agreement but it is absolutely essential that we strike the right about the strategic importance of the industry and balance between tackling climate change and ensuring about the Government’s role in supporting it. Although that European rules—I am an admitted pro-European, two and a half years seems a long time in politics, it is so I am in favour of some European rules—do not important to the industry beyond 2015 that it receives disadvantage European aerospace companies to the ongoing support from whichever party—or parties— benefit of non-European ones. happens to win the next election. As the Minister is aware, there is a real fear that, if I welcome some of the steps that the Government the ongoing ETS dispute with China is not resolved, have already taken, and I echo the comments of my China will threaten to suspend its order of 45 A330 hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham in welcoming aircraft. That will simply push the production of those the aerospace growth partnership, which provides an aircraft from Airbus here in Europe across the Atlantic excellent framework for co-operation between the to the US. As recently as yesterday in Berlin, he was Government and the industry.I have had positive feedback made aware of these concerns by Airbus, and I would from industry representatives about the AGP, which, as welcome any reassurances that he can give about what my hon. Friend has said, is modelled on the success of the Government can do at a European level to mitigate the Automotive Council. the risk of losing such a significant order. I also welcome the announcement made in the Budget In conclusion, we must not be complacent about the this year—unfortunately, it was one of the few future of the British aerospace industry. Although we announcements made in the Budget that I do welcome— should continue to celebrate its successes, we must be that the Government will provide £60 million to fund a alive to the growing and fierce global competition that new world-class centre in the UK for aerodynamics. I it faces today and in the future. Again, I want to stress would be grateful to the Minister if he gave us some that cross-party support for the industry and long-term more detail about that centre at some stage. When will it continuity are incredibly important, given that it is such be opened? Will the Government commit to fund it a long-term industry. In that vein, I look forward to beyond the initial two-year commitment that they have hearing the Minister’s response. made? Unfortunately, there is reason to believe that other countries around the world, including those in our own 3.8 pm neighbourhood, are much more astute and generous in Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Thank you, supporting aerospace research and development. I wonder Mr Turner, for calling me to speak; it is a pleasure to whether the Minister shares the concerns in the industry serve under your chairmanship today. I also welcome that, if we are not careful, our competitors will simply the Minister to his new job, and I am obviously very out-compete us if their Governments give them far pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham greater support for that essential R and D. (Ian Lucas) was able to secure this debate. The industry also has concerns about intellectual As hon. Members have said, we can be rightly proud property rights, and I would be grateful to the Minister of the British aerospace industry. It has been a great if he assured the industry and Members that the success for our country; it is high-value, high-tech and Government are keeping a watchful eye on any further high-quality. It is everything that we want it to be. weakening of IPR for aerospace companies. Several colleagues have said that the industry is worth Whenever I visit aerospace companies in my constituency more than £24 billion to the UK economy and that and whenever I meet representatives of the industry, more than 400,000 jobs rely on it, either directly or they always raise the issue of skills, which the hon. indirectly. 115WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 116WH

I am proud to have Airbus at Broughton in my telling. Such people have a real feel for all levels of the constituency. It is a company that supports around company and are loyal to the aerospace industry and to 100,000 jobs, either directly or indirectly. Broughton is this country. the centre of wing excellence, not only for the UK but Nevertheless, we cannot rest on our laurels. There are globally. threats to Airbus, not only from Boeing in America but Airbus has been a success story, but the success has from growing industries in Russia, Brazil, Canada and been hard won. Back in the 1970s, when Tony Benn, the China. When orders are given to Airbus, or indeed to then Secretary of State for Industry, had a choice to Boeing, part of the deal will often be that some production take up the share in Airbus or support Concorde, he function will end up going to one of those countries. We chose the latter, which in hindsight was probably not the might not like that, and in an ideal world it would not better option. BAE Systems picked up the share in happen, but that is how it works, and the challenge for Airbus, and we were fortunate in the UK to have the us is to stay ahead and always be moving forward so wings. It was through luck rather than judgment, if we that no matter what we end up giving away we have are honest, but the wings have turned out to be the best something to replace it with, the skills and value of part of the aircraft to have, with a lot of value added. which is hopefully higher than that of what we have BAE Systems chose to sell its share several years ago, lost. and that is generally regarded as not the brightest Airbus is a European partnership, and we are fortunate decision it has ever made. Then again, the company to have the wings. Spain, Germany and France would probably has a record of such decisions—if I am not love to have the wings. Although we have had a good being too unkind. order book, going back, as I mentioned, for many Airbus has continued to grow, and projects such as years, it is always about the next aircraft. We have the the A380 and the A350 are moving on. Despite the fact A350, and the next one will be the replacement for the that we were told that there would not be a market for A320, which is the real workhorse of the fleet for most some of the aircraft, the orders are now beginning to airlines. Clearly, we want that here, and it should be come in and the company is extremely successful. here, but Spain, Germany and France will make a good case for its being elsewhere. If we lost that work, the It has not all been plain sailing. The events of 9/11 long-term future would not be good. It is vital, therefore, saw a dramatic decline in orders, and some orders were that we invest now. Composites are the future—in fact, scrapped. Airbus was able, nevertheless, to ride that they are not the future, they are now. Aircraft are being difficult period, thanks not only to the company itself built with composites now. The UK was behind in but to the unions, which made some difficult choices to composites, and is now catching up, but we need to maintain employment and, importantly, the skill base, invest more if we are to bridge the gap that is still there. as colleagues have already mentioned. One of the first decisions taken after 9/11 was to write to every apprentice The Government need to invest. They have put money in the company to say, “Whatever happens, your job is in and given support, but I am concerned when I hear safe.” That compares, perhaps, with the approach of that government is not about picking winners. I do not some other companies—if I am honest, particularly have a problem with picking winners; I have a problem British ones—whose first decision would have been to with picking losers. We must invest in success. In the get rid of apprenticeships, considering them a cost past, the Government too often waited for companies rather than the long-term investment that they are. to fail and then threw money at them. That perhaps delayed what was going to happen anyway, but rarely Currently, Airbus has a 64% market share of civil did it turn around a business that had probably gone airliners, which is an incredible state of the order book. too far to be saved. I do not have a problem with There were more than 1,400 orders last year and, with a investing early in the success of a company. There is a backlog of 4,500 orders, that equates to work for about huge and growing market out there to exploit, and we seven or eight years. Last week we saw the first A350 are fortunate to be in a strong place in it. wing leave Broughton for Toulouse, for the test aircraft Mention has been made of the military side of things, that is being put together there. which unfortunately is sometimes seen as totally different The apprenticeship scheme is important because it is from the civil side. Clearly the planes are different, but an investment. There are 393 apprenticeships already the ways in which planes are developed, whether via going through, and a further 85 apprentices have been composites or a whole host of engineering changes, recruited this year. We have to praise the company, often come from innovations made through military because it has not been doing this only recently, but for aircraft. The 400M military transport aircraft is the first many years, at a time when the rest of British industry aircraft to have composite wings produced in Bristol. A had decided, frankly, that somehow apprenticeships lot of work has been done there that could be used for were a thing of the past, and that, rather than investing composites in civil aircraft as well. We have only to look in younger people in their own companies, they could back to the Boeing 747, the entire development of pinch staff from others. which was, I think, paid for by the US military apparently because it was going to be a military transport aircraft. Clearly, it was never going to be that; it was just a way Ian Lucas: Isn’t it striking how many individuals in of being able to pay Boeing’s development costs for the aerospace industry at very senior—chief executive— what became a successful large-scale airliner. We cannot, levels are former apprentices? therefore, separate civil and military; they are both important. Mark Tami: Yes, that is true. We have mentioned Colleagues have already addressed some of the main Brian Fleet, who has retired from Airbus but started off issues regarding the EU emissions trading scheme, so I as an apprentice there, left and then came back. That is will not go into great detail, but the point I will make is 117WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 118WH

[Mark Tami] country. However, aerospace is a high-tech industry and we need people to fill gaps in it; otherwise companies—and that China and America are concerned and angry about today they are all global—will go elsewhere. We must be how the scheme operates. I am not saying that we extremely careful about that, but it is a great industry should just scrap it, but we need to consider ways of and can have a strong future if the Government take it getting through the issues, otherwise we will end up seriously. However, we must support it and invest in it. with a repeat of what we had in the World Trade Organisation, with the different sides throwing rocks at each other and no one really winning. 3.23 pm Mention has been made of the orders that are potentially Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): I under threat. It is not just Airbus that would lose from want to talk about two things: the importance of the that, but the whole supplier chain, including Rolls-Royce, aerospace industry, not only in its own standing, but as which would supply the engines for the aircraft. It is part of our industrial base; and the contribution and important that the situation should not spiral out of potential of the manufacturing technology centre at control. Ansty, near Coventry. I thank my hon. Friend the The motor industry has also been mentioned; clearly Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) for obtaining the the industry in the UK went through a dramatic decline. debate, which is an important one. I am pleased that we now produce more cars than we Other hon. Members have talked about how successful ever did in the past—or, if we are honest, we assemble the aerospace industry is, and the figures speak for more. However, the supplier chain has not recovered themselves—100,000 direct jobs, £24.2 billion of annual and we have lost quite a lot of the design stuff. Some earnings, 75% of which are earned from export markets, has not come back—perhaps it never will. Even the and 17% of the world market, second only to the aerospace market is very competitive, and there is pressure United States. In no other area of industry do we hold to get suppliers to give the best price. Sometimes those such a pre-eminent position. It is not one that we can suppliers will come from abroad; but we still have a afford to give away. good supplier chain in this country, and we need to invest more in it. There are too many people in this country who think that we are a post-industrial society, and not all of them Training has been mentioned, and perhaps, whether take that view from a state of ignorance: there are with Airbus or anyone else, we need to focus lower pre-eminent economists—we had one at the Select down, because we still have skill problems. We must be Committee on Foreign Affairs the other day—who honest about that and address it. It is a major problem, think that we can earn our living in the world by and it relates not just to technical skills but some basic providing financial services and nothing else. I fail to skills. I think many employers are struck by the fact that see how that model will ever be successful. We shall not there are still such problems. keep our people gainfully employed, and pay our way in Emma Reynolds: Does my hon. Friend agree that the the world, off the back of financial services, no matter Government might consider the Rolls-Royce model of how successful the sector is—and it has blotted its taking on more apprentices than are needed, and, at the copybook big-time in the past couple of years. end of the training, making the extra apprentices available In my time in the Ministry of Defence I learned the further down the supply chain, so that it has those skills importance of the aerospace industry, not only to the available to it? industrial base, but to our ability to produce the wherewithal Mark Tami: That is a good point. One of our problems to defend ourselves and play a role in the world—something is from the days of privatisation. Whatever faults people that should not be underestimated. The hon. Member may have found in state-run companies, they trained a for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White), who has lot of people to a high standard. After privatisation, now left us, talked about the need for an industrial one of the first things to change was that many people policy. Will the Minister tell us whether he agrees that were not trained any more. I am thinking of electricity there is a need for such a policy? There are people who supply companies. Many people trained in the public are worried, because of some of the views and attitudes sector ended up going into the private sector. Complaints that he has expressed in the past, about his arrival in the are made to me about Airbus or other bigger companies Department and whether there will be an attempt to poaching people from the supplier chains to feed their push us into a laissez-faire, devil-take-the-hindmost needs. That can only happen for a while before the situation. It is a real concern, and I hope that he will supplier chain—and quality—suffers. Then Airbus or take the opportunity to lay that fear to rest. whichever company is involved will look elsewhere for The aerospace industry is important in itself—but it support. is not fully appreciated that that is not its only importance. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): My hon. Friend The synergies across the different parts of our far too will be aware of the Government’s trumpeting 800,000 small industrial base are also very important, not necessarily extra apprenticeships. I think the figures were given to to the primes—the big companies, the likes of which my Parliament yesterday.Are those the type of apprenticeships hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark that could help the automobile and aircraft industries, Tami) has been discussing—but to small and medium-sized or are they mini-apprenticeships? What sort of enterprises, and second and third-tier suppliers in the apprenticeships are necessary? Coventry and Warwickshire area. They do not do aerospace: they do aerospace, automotive and defence supplies. Mark Tami: We are still somewhat unclear. We hear They flex between one and the other. They locate themselves large figures, but do not know. Some jobs that are, I in the area, and can continue to manufacture there, think, dressed up as apprenticeships, may be very low- because there is a skill base on which they can still draw. skilled. Clearly, we need all the jobs we can get in this It is not as big as those of many of our competitors. 119WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 120WH

Hon. Members may want to compare the size of the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham German industrial base, not so far away. We need (Ian Lucas), who is a very good friend, on securing this critical mass, and the aerospace industry plays an important important debate. He is to be commended for bringing part in our ability to maintain it. I come from what has this vital topic before the Chamber in such a thoughtful, been recognised as a car town, so hon. Members might knowledgeable and measured manner. He was an excellent ask what on earth I am doing talking about aerospace, Minister in the Department for Business, Innovation but it plays a huge part in underpinning the skill base of and Skills and acted as a champion for important the Coventry and Warwickshire area, never mind the future sectors such as the aerospace and automotive celebrated car companies of the past, or Jaguar Land industries. He has demonstrated that same commitment Rover, which continues to provide employment. to British industry today. The manufacturing technology centre at Ansty, near Speaking of congratulations, I welcome the right my constituency, was established by two midlands regional hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) to his development agencies—the old East Midlands appointment as minder of state at the Department. Development Agency and Advantage West Midlands— This is his first Adjournment debate in that role. I also which came together with several universities. The concept welcome his elevation to the Privy Council. He has an was to do something that we all recognise the country important role in championing British industry in a has been weak at in the past. We have had great pure long-term, modern and constructive way, relevant to science expertise in our universities and have repeatedly the needs and ambitions of business in the 21st century, failed to turn it into product, market share, jobs and and I wish him well in that task. skills. The manufacturing technology centres were established to provide that through path, to pull those On a slight tangent, this is my first opportunity in a technological capabilities out of the universities and to debate on aerospace to pay tribute to Neil Armstrong, encourage companies to share and explore the synergies the first man on the moon, who died last month. That they all need. extraordinary man was brave, modest and inspirational, and it should be remembered that his first love was The centre in Ansty, led by Clive Hickman, is now flying. fully operational with 125 people and 39 member companies, a third of which are aerospace companies, with Rolls-Royce playing a particular part. The centre 3.34 pm currently has 29 projects with small and medium-sized Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. enterprises. If we want to maintain what was sometimes glibly called high-tech manufacturing capability, we need 3.49 pm facilities such as the manufacturing technology centre and we need those facilities to spill out and have a On resuming— bigger impact on the local economy. Mr Wright: Before we were rudely interrupted by the The Ansty development site is still underdeveloped Division, I was about to take off in tribute to Neil and not fully exploited, despite a fantastically favourable Armstrong, whose first love was flying and aviation. geographical position, with direct access to the A46 After he came back from the moon, he became a trunk road, M69 and M6, easy access to the M40 and professor of aeronautical engineering at Cincinnati west coast main line and—if High Speed 2 is ever built university for the best part of a decade. and the Government do not back out—the first station Coincidentally, today marks the 50th anniversary of out of London not that far away. The old Rolls-Royce President Kennedy’s moving and powerful speech about Ansty site, now sadly under-utilised, is coterminous the moon project, probably the best example in history with the development site. The problem for Rolls-Royce of Government and industry working in harmony. This is that, although valuable high-tech work is still done on is what he said: the site, output has shrunk compared with overheads, as operations have shrunk over the years. “We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but I want the expertise of the manufacturing technology because they are hard”. centre to spread into the rest of the development site, I genuinely hope that the Secretary of State’s speech and I encourage Rolls-Royce to exploit fully again the yesterday, on an industrial strategy for the UK, will Ansty site next door, which could have a huge impact have the same sort of wide-ranging and dramatic impact on the local economy. The Coventry and Warwickshire as Kennedy’s speech had in September 1962. Having local enterprise partnership is doing its best to deliver said that, given that the Secretary of State has made that, but I wonder about its capacity. I know the 15 speeches on this topic since he came to office—an Government are totally opposed to the old regional average of one every eight weeks—without any real, development agencies and think they were over- discernible impact, I shall not hold my breath on behalf bureaucratic, but the LEP is private sector-led. The of industry. Government must ensure that the LEP has sufficient capability and support to provide the leadership necessary In today’s excellent debate, we have heard that the to secure such jobs in the Ansty development site off UK aerospace industry is a national success story that the back of the manufacturing technology centre. should be promoted and celebrated, arguably more than it currently is. My hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham and others have pointed out that this country 3.32 pm has 17% of the global market, making the UK the Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): It is a pleasure to largest aerospace industry in Europe, and second only serve under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. to the United States in the world. Some 2,600 companies 121WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 122WH

[Mr Iain Wright] builds on the progress made by the advanced manufacturing strategy introduced by the previous Labour Government in the UK directly employ more than 100,000 workers, as part of the “New Industry, New Jobs” initiative. The and last year generated a turnover of close to £25 billion, aerospace growth partnership’s strategic vision for UK with three quarters from exports. aerospace, “Reach for the skies”, is ambitious and clear, As we have heard this afternoon, there are huge focusing on what we believe to be the right areas of opportunities and potential for the industry. Airbus, in strategy, technology, manufacturing capability, supply chain its global market forecast published last week, estimated competitiveness and engagement and communications, that there will be a need for 28,200 passenger and as well as the vital work undertaken on skills for the freight aircraft to be delivered between now and 2031, a sector by the aerospace and defence sector strategy potential market worth $4 trillion. Passenger traffic will group. more than double in the next 20 years, with those The key strategic findings of “Reach for the skies” passengers flying on larger, more efficient aircraft like state quite explicitly: the A380, that will be made of material that is substantially “The UK can retain its position as the largest aerospace lighter but more endurable, and which will consume less manufacturer in Europe (and number two globally) if industry fuel and make less noise. and Government work together to address barriers to growth”. Although the growth of civil aerospace will be large It goes on: and potentially lucrative, there are also targeted “Companies are more likely to invest in creating jobs and opportunities that our defence aerospace industry, because capabilities in the UK if they believe the Government is committed of our global reputation, should be able to, indeed to maintaining the UK as an attractive environment for aerospace.” must, take advantage of. In the face of that huge Opposition Members certainly support such a commitment. potential, there is also enormous competition, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North In that context, and given the debate that we have East (Emma Reynolds) mentioned. We cannot afford to had, will the Minister take this opportunity to appreciate be complacent in such an important sector. On the back that in the modern economy, in important industrial of that, much of today’s debate has rightly focused on sectors such as aerospace, close co-operation, partnership the role of Government in relation to business and and activism is absolutely necessary between the aerospace in the context of planning an industrial strategy. Government and business? Indeed, it is the only way the Opposition Members believe strongly that the UK will maintain and enhance its competitive edge. Government should set out a compelling vision for what Will he also take the opportunity to support, in full, the this country’s economy will look like in the next 30 or industrial strategy approach set out by the Secretary of 40 years. They should be determined—not necessarily State this week; in particular, what he told the House on to pick winners at a company level, as my hon. Friend Monday? The Secretary of State said: the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) “The other theme is the need for partnership between business mentioned—to identify those sectors in which we as a and industry. Very few countries have a purely laissez-faire approach, nation have a current competitive strength and a and we should learn from their experience. We also should draw comparative advantage that will allow Britain to play a on our experience; I have learned much from some of my predecessors, particularly Lord Heseltine, who has an office in my Department leading role in global markets in the decades to come. and is contributing valuably to thinking on this subject.”—[Official Co-ordination of policy right across Whitehall, not just Report, 10 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 25.] confined to the Minister’s Department, should then be pursued relentlessly and without dither for the single-minded Will the Minister fully endorse his Secretary of State’s purpose of allowing those sectors to thrive. approach? Will he also take the opportunity to reject his own comments in The Sunday Telegraph, particularly—I With that in mind, Labour Members fully support think my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham mentioned the championing of the aerospace sector as a vital and this—when he said: much-needed part of the UK economy. As I have explained, UK aerospace has a leading role in the “Deregulation and privatisation worked before”? global market, not just now but in the growth of the Is that not a somewhat dated and discredited approach sector in the next 20 or 30 years. All Opposition and that will do nothing to address the business needs in a Government Members should therefore be determined fiercely competitive and interconnected global economy to maintain that market edge, and to enhance it for the of the 21st century? It is like trying to solve the problems good of the national economy. of 2012 by harking back to 1982, or like listening to a The aerospace sector has capital expenditure programmes Sony Walkman when the world is excited about iPhone 5s. and lead times for research and development, design “Reach for the skies” states that business and the and manufacture measured in billions of pounds and in Government are working to identify the product and decades. The industry and its supply chain need to have manufacturing process technologies that will position confidence and certainty to allow them to plan for the the country for growth, and that a business case will be long term. Policy uncertainty is bad for business and for set out by the end of this month. Is that still on track? the interests of the UK aerospace industry, as my hon. Will the Minister update the Chamber on that important Friend the Member for Wolverhampton North East matter? Similarly, the document states that business and eloquently said. the Government will develop a strategic plan for the We therefore applaud the creation of the aerospace UK aerospace industry’s underpinning and enabling growth partnership, which is somewhat similar, as my capabilities within academia, the supply chain and hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham said, in its the relevant Catapult, as well as creating a strategic ambition and scope to the work done with the Automotive roadmap—or should that be runway—to exploit future Council for another vital sector for the UK economy, technologies. Again, will the Minister give an update on the automotive sector. The aerospace growth partnership progress on that? 123WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 124WH

I am concerned that business policy should not merely an early opportunity to answer this debate as Minister reside in the Department for Business, Innovation and for the aerospace industries and for the tone he set in Skills, but that the reach of an industrial strategy should launching this debate. I may have other debates with the stretch right across Whitehall. In that vein, the Minister hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) where words will want to address one of the findings in “Reach for such as “dogma” and “ideology” are more appropriate, the skies”. A big factor in whether we can maintain and but I do not think this has been one of them. It has been enhance our competitiveness in aerospace—mentioned an excellent, timely debate that allows me to report on by my hon. Friends the Member for Wolverhampton yesterday’s meetings in Berlin of the European Ministers North East and for Alyn and Deeside, and myright hon. in this area, which focused on Airbus, one of the world’s FriendtheMemberforCoventryNorthEast(MrAinsworth) largest aerospace companies and a key part of our —is the shortage of skilled engineers, particularly at aerospace sector. I met Thomas Enders and Tom Williams senior technician, graduate and postgraduate level. What and heard directly from Airbus about its position in the work is the Minister doing to address that, and how is he marketplace and its reports on progress with each of its engaging with the Secretary of State for Education on planes. this vital issue, particularly as the Education Secretary has downgraded the engineering diploma? Does the The aerospace sector, as the right hon. Member for Minister share my concern that studying engineering at Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) and other hon. school, college, as an apprentice and at university does Members reminded us, is not just about the large global not seem to be a top priority in Sanctuary Buildings, and companies. The UK has many thriving mid-size companies that for the sake of our competitiveness in the next 20, 30 and small and medium-sized ones as well. Hon. Members and 40 years it should be a priority, especially when it might be interested to know that, while in Berlin, I comes to important sectors such as aerospace? Will the spent some time with one of the aerospace regional skills strategy for aerospace be delivered as planned by trade associations, the Midlands Aerospace Alliance autumn 2012? and some of the smaller companies exhibiting at the show. They were doing a great job seeking out export One of the risks to the industry identified by the opportunities for this country. One of the companies aerospace growth partnership is access to finance, especially there, for example, was Tritech, based in the constituency in the supply chain, and we need to ensure that the gap of the hon. Member for Wrexham. It is interesting to between banks and aerospace businesses are closed. note that Tritech, which provides castings for a range of Yesterday’s speech by the Secretary of State for Business, customers, was formed in the difficult industrial climate Innovation and Skills mentioned setting up a British of the early 1980s, but has gone from strength to business bank. That is a welcome step, as we are the strength. only country in the G8 that does not have such an institution for small and medium-sized enterprises’financing In his speech yesterday on industrial strategy, my requirements. Will the Minister say a little more about right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, that? Will he expand on the points made by my hon. Innovation and Skills said that aerospace was a sector Friend the Member for Wrexham? Will the British where the Government are developing a long term business bank have new money and new borrowing strategic partnership. I emphasise that, because there powers, or is it a case of existing arrangements being has been much discussion about picking winners, and consolidated into something new? How will SMEs in so on. This is much more about backing winners and the aerospace supply chain derive benefit from such a helping the industries pick their own winners and seeing bank? what government can do to support them. As the Secretary Concerns about the EU emissions trading scheme of State emphasised yesterday, there is a need for a have been raised in the debate. There is no point in partnership between government and the industry on undermining our competitiveness and losing trade to aerospace because, although it demands long-time the likes of China and Russia, and order books being horizons, the potential prize is measured in trillions of lost. I hope the Minister will spend some time addressing dollars. that, too. It was clear from our meeting and update with Airbus Opposition Members are passionate supporters of yesterday that the opportunities are immense in terms the UK aerospace industry. We need to give the major of future orders to replace the ageing fleets, both in the players certainty and stability, allowing them to invest United States and Africa, and there are also enormous for the long term. We want UK aerospace to maintain challenges from increasing global competition and the its global pre-eminence as the market grows sharply, but need for step changes in technology to further improve in the face of fierce competition, this is possible only the environmental performance of new aircraft. I hope with an active partnership between Government and that it is clear that this Government recognise the value industry.We will support the Minister and the Government of the aerospace sector and is committed to work with wholeheartedly if they adopt that model. I hope that companies, not simply to sustain it, but to grow it. the Minister will take this opportunity—his first in an Adjournment debate—to pursue such an approach for Several hon. Members mentioned the size of the the sake of the advancement and prosperity of the UK sector. It contributes more than £24 billion a year to our aerospace industry, long into the future. economy and provides directly more than 100,000 highly skilled and high-paid jobs, and many more than that indirectly. At present we are a world leader in the design 4pm and manufacture of large aircraft wings and components, The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation aero-engines and advanced systems, such as landing and Skills (Michael Fallon): It is a pleasure to serve gear. These are the most complex parts of any aircraft. under your chairmanship, Mr Turner. I thank the hon. The UK is well placed to pick up a significant share of Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) for giving me such the huge growth opportunities that exist in the global 125WH Aerospace Industry12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Aerospace Industry 126WH

[Michael Fallon] those more traditional business relationships, which the larger banks got away from in the run-up to the financial market for new aircraft. Airbus estimates that more crisis, and ensure that lending is really getting through 27,000 new large passenger aircraft will be required by to those small companies when and where they need it 2030. and on terms they can afford. My Department will be As several hon. Members emphasised, including the monitoring access and the use that the bigger banks are hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), this making of the funding for lending scheme, ensuring is a competitive market. I do not want to tempt the hon. that the full benefit of that scheme is being passed on. Member for Hartlepool any further, but I am a little On the emissions trading scheme, Airbus yesterday surprised that he mocks privatisation: these are all left the Ministers from France, Spain and Germany, successful companies because they are private companies, and me, in no doubt that the threat of retaliatory action competing in a competitive private market. However, I is now extremely serious. I, too, left my fellow Ministers recognise the role of Government in sustaining that in no doubt of our position. The emissions trading market and helping it grow. That is why we created the scheme is now law—part of a directive—and that has growth partnership, to work with companies and tackle been passed not only by the European Parliament and barriers to growth, boost exports and grow the number Council but by this House. We have environmental of high-value jobs in the UK. I confirm that I will chair obligations that all of us want to honour. Equally, the the group, together with Marcus Bryson from GKN. directive makes it clear that there is provision for review The growth partnership is not about the Government where there is international agreement to deal with such trying to impose a strategy on business, but about better a review, and I have made it clear that the work of understanding where companies see opportunities, helping finding a solution to the problem, in particular the issue them to identify them and removing the bottlenecks to of extraterritoriality, is now urgent. The clock is ticking growth. The growth partnership now involves the as the directive has to come into force in April. We need commitment of more than 80 senior business people, to find a way through—a solution through the International supported by eight full-time secondees provided and Civil Aviation Organisation or other forums in which funded by the aerospace industry. That is a major there is dialogue between the European Union and investment by the sector and an indication of the importance China and so on. that it attaches to the initiative. The regional growth fund was mentioned by a number Hon. Members have been kind about the “Strategic of Members, and there have been criticisms of the pace Vision” document that we published in July. I will add of some of the earlier awards under the scheme. I look more detail to that, showing how we will implement it, forward to responding on that when I appear before the towards the end of the year. However, we are already Select Committee shortly. supporting the industry in a number of ways. At The hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East Farnborough air show, we announced a further package (Emma Reynolds) asked me specifically about the of Government and industry investment—more than aerodynamic centre. The £60 million is obviously not all £200 million—which includes £100 million of investment for the centre. On the location, it will be no surprise to in aerodynamics; joint industry and Government funding learn that a number of options have been put forward. for 500 masters-level degree places in aerospace engineering; A panel of experts is meeting this week and will give me and further investment in low-emissions engine technology advice shortly. We hope to announce the decision soon. and towards major business-led aerospace research and On investment in composites, we will continue to development projects. support the national composites centre in Bristol, part In addition, the aerospace sector is benefiting from of the series of catapult centres, and to encourage the the creation of a high-value manufacturing catapult centre, use of the centre by aerospace companies. The right part of a network backed by £200 million of Government hon. Member for Coventry North East asked me about funding, helping to better commercialise the outputs of the manufacturing technology centre at Ansty Park, our world-class research base. We continue to support which is also part of the high-value manufacturing aerospace exports through UK Export Finance, supporting catapult centres. At Farnborough, we announced some more than £2 billion of aerospace business last year. £40 million to support a series of projects that Rolls-Royce Such support should not, as hon. Members have said, is leading on advanced manufacturing processes and simply be about money. A lot of this work is about how that is one of the first initiatives to go through the to flesh out the partnership and deal with some issues MTC. If the right hon. Gentleman is suggesting that it that this sector, like others, confronts—notably, the is still underused and that there is scope for greater shortage of skills, which is particularly an issue for capacity, I am happy to have a look and to reply in more small and medium-sized businesses and better UK sourcing detail. of the supply chain—and, of course, what the industry The United Kingdom has an aerospace sector of and the Government need to do collaboratively to help which we can be justly proud, but I assure hon. Members bolster our research and development base. I will give who have participated in the debate that we cannot the House more details on how we will implement the afford to be complacent. They will see nothing other strategic vision in a few months. than an unstinting and unflagging commitment from Let me deal with some questions asked by hon. the Government to making Britain the best place in the Members. I apologise if I am not able to deal with all of world for aerospace businesses to invest, design, them in the remaining six minutes. I will write to hon. manufacture and export. Members about any questions that I have missed. I am grateful for the kind words that hon. Members Access to finance is critical for small and medium-sized offered me on my appointment and for their interest in companies, which is why we are working hard to reform this particular sector and their non-political approach, banking and have more challenger banks able to develop exemplified by the formation of the all-party group, in 127WH Aerospace Industry 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 128WH the work of which I shall certainly take an interest. I Police Officer Reductions might have missed some individual points made in the debate, but I hope to demonstrate the kind of commitment to the industry that others in the Chamber have 4.14 pm demonstrated previously and so well in the debate. The Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure sector is vital and I certainly pledge to do what I can to to take part in this debate under your chairmanship, support it. Mr Turner. I requested a debate on police cuts to look at the evidence. My constituents are interested in the numbers of front-line police and in how those police protect them and their families. I will also look at the evidence on how the number of front-line officers affects crime and at the effect of the cuts in different parts of the country. I pay tribute to police officers in front-line and so-called back-office roles, to community support officers and to civilian staff who support their uniformed colleagues. The hard work and dedication of the police has made a huge difference to communities throughout Merseyside and the rest of the country. The dedicated people who work as police officers and support staff feel, however, that their hard work is being compromised by cuts that go way too far and that those cuts will undermine the ability of the police service to keep the people of Merseyside safe. They also have grave concerns that cuts in police numbers will put pressure on them to go on duty alone, rather than with a colleague—a risk not only to personal safety, but to ability to do the job. Turning to the evidence, according to the Home Office in July, the number of police officers had dropped by nearly 10,000 under this Government—more than the inspectorate of constabulary expected and showing the depth of the cuts involved. Substantially more than half the cuts so far are from 999, neighbourhood and traffic response—officers who we rely on in an emergency. That represents the lowest number of police officers on our streets in almost a decade. The number of police community support officers has fallen by 9% in the past year alone. The British crime survey shows that crime fell by 43% under Labour and that such progress has ground to a halt under the Tory-led Government, whom we now know have cut almost 10,000 officers. Our first piece of evidence therefore suggests a link between the number of police officers and the level of crime. When Labour left office, record numbers of police were on the street: over 16,500 more than in 1997, in addition to more than 16,000 new PCSOs. I will come to the worrying Government plans for PCSOs shortly. The record number of police officers meant that not only did crime fall by 43% under Labour but the chance of being a victim of crime was the lowest since records began. Also, for the first time since records began, crime fell in a recession. That, sadly, is no longer the case, as we see the fall in crime grinding to a halt in a double-dip recession made in Downing street. Indeed, the lack of jobs and growth is putting additional pressure on the police. Historically, people unable to find work might, from economic necessity or lack of anything productive to do, find crime to be an alternative. That was resisted initially in recession through a combination of prevention and policing. Preventive measures put in place allowed people to keep their homes and caused unemployment to be much lower than in previous recessions. Another key measure of the previous Labour Government was the excellent neighbourhood policing initiative, which helped to cut crime rather than cutting the police. 129WH Police Officer Reductions12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Police Officer Reductions 130WH

Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): create productive activities, particularly for young people, My hon. Friend referred to prevention. Does he agree often directing them away from crime and antisocial that our police officers work hard to fulfil the first and behaviour. primary responsibility laid down by Robert Peel, which From April 2013, funding for PCSOs will no longer is to prevent crime, rather than only chasing after be ring-fenced. In my view they are essential to the criminals? Does he also agree that it is greatly to the success of neighbourhood policing, but given the massive credit of the police that they do not whinge about their cuts being made by the Government, it will be very difficult situation but get on with the job? In a way, difficult for chief constables to keep the current number however, the effects of the reduced numbers to which of PCSOs. On Merseyside, only one local authority has my hon. Friend referred are therefore played down. been able to continue its funding of PCSOs in support of the police authority funding. Local government has Bill Esterson: My right hon. Friend will make an also been clobbered by this Government of course, and excellent police and crime commissioner. I shall touch it is no surprise that councils such as mine in Sefton had on the post for which he is standing a little later, but he to end their funding for PCSOs several years ago. is absolutely right that the police do get on with things. In 2011, a Unison campaign to protect PCSOs in They soldier on regardless of what is put before them by Lancashire obtained more than 5,000 signatures from politicians, and they try to make the best of a bad the public and created supporting motions in the House job—the record police cuts qualify as a bad job. of Lords. Council leaders responded to such a groundswell The record number of front-line police under the of opinion throughout Lancashire by agreeing to continue previous Government ensured that any inclination to to support funding to keep PCSOs on their streets. crime that resulted from being out of work or short of What is happening to police services, as the police money was challenged by the police because there were make the cuts imposed on them? Some 75% of front enough of them. A combination of prevention and desks have closed in Merseyside and Lancashire alone, enforcement therefore meant that crime continued to resulting in significant loss of direct service to communities fall in a recession. and of long-serving staff who have built up local knowledge Now we have fewer police and worrying signs of a and connections that will not be replaced. In my reverse in the levels of crime, following unprecedented constituency, front desks in both Formby and Maghull cuts in funding, all at the expense of those at risk of have closed. Many people, especially elderly people, feel suffering from crime up and down the country. So much safer when they know there is a police station round the for being tough on crime and tough on its causes—more corner that they can go to, even if they do not use it like tough on the victims of crime, as they are the often. People do not always like to use the phone, or victims of a political dogma that sees the opportunity have a car to go to a police station miles away. to cut the size of the state, not least policing. One third of custody suites have also closed throughout People in my constituency want to see police on their Merseyside. There are also concerns about forensic streets, but 624 police officer posts will have been lost science and fingerprint services. The concern raised from the Merseyside force between 2010 and the end of with me is that there will be a significant reduction in 2012-13, as a direct result of the Government’s 20% cut police staff and loss of a highly skilled work force in in the police budget. A further 178 staff support posts services that play a major part in catching criminals. will be lost over the same period. The Prime Minister Potential closure of those specialist services is in advance promised to protect the front line, but that has not of a national review that is due to make its own happened. It is no good Ministers blaming chief constables recommendations for all forces to implement. and police authorities. A 20% cut by the Government is Next on the list are control room staff. The 999 and not the fault of the police service. If they are so keen to general enquiry services are experiencing high turnover cut the amount spent on police officers, why have they of staff in north-west England, resulting in the use of insisted, with due respect to my right hon. Friend, on a transient, inexperienced agency workers. Forces such as new bureaucracy that will cost more money to set Cheshire have evidence of low morale in this group, up—money that could be spent on front-line officers? I which is forced to work to unrealistic Government am, of course, referring to police and crime commissioners. targets on call time allocation and other indicators. The prospect of having Tory commissioners striding Some police services are considering outsourcing, which around their patches, lauding it over professional police will increase the risk of having staff without the local officers, is not a happy one. I understand that Tory knowledge and relationships needed to ensure that such candidates plan to have their own uniforms, like some work retains its focus, despite targets, on the proper latter-day sheriff of Nottingham, although I hope that response that the public need, not on statistics or profits. the people of Nottinghamshire will have the good sense That reminds me that the Government are closing to vote Labour in the elections on 15 November, to coastguard stations around the country, including the avoid the dreadful prospect of a series of Tory one in my constituency, to make way for two super-national commissioners playing at cops and robbers. call centres that will have no local knowledge. Service I turn to another part of the police service and the and safety are being sacrificed in the coastguard service, excellent men and women who also contributed to the and it seems that the same may be happening in the cuts in crime that we saw under the previous Government. police service. I mentioned them earlier. Police community support Police services throughout the country have no option officers are a key part of neighbourhood policing, other than to deliver the Government’s cuts agenda. which makes a big difference through the relationships Chief constables say that many of the jobs that go in the that they and their police constable colleagues can build various specialisms will be have to be done by police and in their work in crime prevention and helping to officers, who will therefore spend less time on the beat 131WH Police Officer Reductions12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Police Officer Reductions 132WH and more time in an office, with the added expense that detrimental effect on crime and result in the public that will incur. That will add to the already sizeable receiving a poorer service. That is what police officers reductions in the number of police on the beat. say. The evidence is also found in what the Police The biggest cuts have been in the poorest areas. As Federation says, in the experience of the public through with the fire service and local government, the metropolitan the loss of front desks, police officers and PCSOs on the areas have had the biggest cuts. A 20% cut in Government beat and in the increase in crime. grant across the board hits those with the lowest council In Lancashire, the acting chief constable, Chris Weigh, tax base hardest, because grant makes up a bigger told the Lancashire Evening Post that his force was proportion of the total finance available. taking 513 police officers off the streets and that that I met representatives of the Merseyside Police Federation had led to an inevitable increase in the number of who told me that the Government’s cuts to the force are offences. The force has an annual budget of £287 million dangerous. The federation warned me that Merseyside and must save £42 million over four years. Mr Weigh police will be described how he has been tackling burglaries in the county and how his officers had tackled burglary spikes “significantly affected by the 20% cut in police budgets imposed last year. He asked how much longer special operations upon police forces”. can continue to be employed to target burglary, when The effect of the Government’s cuts on the police have resources are falling. Figures released in April show been even greater in Merseyside, as I demonstrated, that serious acquisitive crime in Lancashire rose by 8%, because of how the police budget is calculated. The house burglaries were up by 8.4%, vehicle crime was up ration of funding to the police is dependent on the by 6.4% and assault without injury was up by 15%. The demographics of the area. Merseyside is funded with acting chief constable said that there has been 83% Government grant and 17% council tax precept. “a genuine, real increase in offending”. Surrey is funded with around 50% Government grant and 50% precept, on account of the relative wealth in That was confirmed by the chair of the Lancashire the area. Police Federation, Rachel Baines, who said: “It is the inevitable result. Officers are being hit from every The Government’s decision to slash its police funding angle.” by 20% has a greater impact on areas with more deprivation In just two years, the Government have cut police than on more affluent areas, particularly those down numbers back to what they were nearly a decade ago, south. As a result, Merseyside police are being hit weakened police powers, undermined morale and reduced particularly hard by the cuts. Merseyside is set to lose crime prevention. What is required is a change of course 650 police officers, as well as 103 police community and for the Government to implement a proper plan to support officers and 452 civilian staff, because it must cut crime, not police officers. We need real change from lose £61.4 million from its budget over the next four the Government to make our streets safer. Neighbourhood years. policing must be prioritised, antisocial behaviour must The Police Federation tells me that Merseyside has be taken seriously and the causes of crime need to be already lost around 500 of the 600 police officers due to tackled, with police and local authorities working together. be lost through the process of natural wastage and a We should ensure that there is no privatisation of core recruitment freeze. The police authority is doing its policing and that strong communities are built, with utmost to make savings to counter the loss of such a respect to all, and responsibility by all. large number of officers. This week, it was announced I welcome the Minister to his post today. I hope that that 40 new officers are being taken on because of the his response will provide confidence to my community savings that have been made, but that is a drop in the and others around the country that he will listen and ocean considering the losses that Merseyside police has act, not only on the points that I have made today, but experienced. Forty gains against 600 losses is a pretty on what the police and public say about the need to bleak score card, and Merseyside police still face losses reverse police cuts. because of the huge savings in the next few years. One of my major concerns is that the excellent work by Merseyside police officers in recent years, particularly 4.31 pm in reducing crime rates, will be reversed. Merseyside The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the police have taken great strides in combating crime rates Home Department (James Brokenshire): I welcome you over the past decade, but the Police Federation believes to the Chair, Mr Turner, and I congratulate the hon. that it is inevitable that crime and disorder throughout Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) on securing Merseyside will rise, so turning round the continuous the debate, even though I do not agree with a great deal reduction that has been witnessed in recent years. I have of the assumptions and analysis he has presented this spoken to officers who warn that the cuts are dangerous afternoon. and will lead to a rise in crime. The Government need to Perhaps we can start on a point of agreement, however, know the damage that they are doing to policing in by recognising the work of the police service. As the Merseyside. The result will be not just a rise in crime, Minister with responsibility for security during the Olympic but an increase in the fear of crime in our communities. and Paralympic games, it has been a privilege for me to I said that I would look at the evidence, which is work alongside the police. I pay tribute to their incredible found in the figures produced by the Home Office and work over the 105 days of the policing plan for the in what police officers say when responding to surveys. events, which ensured that safety and security were A survey by the Police Federation shows that police provided. We all recognise the job that the police do and officers in England and Wales believe that the Government’s the big contribution that they make to keeping our cut of 20% in the police budget over the next four years communities safe. In the context of Merseyside police, and the reduction in police officer numbers will have a I also pay tribute to the work of Chief Constable 133WH Police Officer Reductions12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Police Officer Reductions 134WH

[James Brokenshire] identified the scope for the service to save at least £200 million a year by joining up procurement of non-IT Jon Murphy, which is providing a sense of assurance, goods and services. and I want to recognise the work that individual police Forces are also making substantial savings in IT. We forces and police authorities are doing to respond to the have seen police spend fall by £73 million last year challenge of dealing with budget settlements over the compared with 2009-10, and we are clear that there are comprehensive spending review. real opportunities for further savings to be made. The Turning to the hon. Gentleman’s central argument, new police information communications technology the Government have no choice but to deal with the company will play a key role in helping forces make the deficit that was caused by the actions of the previous most of such opportunities. In total, forces are planning Government, meaning that all public services must to make about 24% of their savings through reducing constrain their spending. As a service spending £14 billion non-pay costs. As just under 20% of forces’ budgets are a year, there is a broad consensus that the police can spent on non-pay areas, that shows that forces are and must make their fair share of the required savings. prioritising finding savings from non-pay budgets. The Government are clear that savings need to be made while ensuring that the quality of service that the public Bill Esterson: The Minister touched on a point that I receive is maintained and, where possible, improved. did not raise, which was about using private companies This is not about salami-slicing policing resources; it is to run police services. As he will know, that is of great about transformation and long-term change in the way concern to the Police Federation and many others. that services are delivered. Perhaps he can help me understand how a private company, where it needs to make a profit, can run Furthermore, there is a great deal of talk about the services more cheaply to the taxpayer than if the efficiencies reduction in central Government funding for the police, were sorted out in-house. but we must be clear that that is only part of the picture. The police service, nationally, receives around a quarter of its income from the police precept element of council James Brokenshire: I have to tell the hon. Gentleman tax. The exact proportion varies from force to force, that that has been the experience; a number of private and I should stress, the level at which it is set is a matter companies, in specific roles and with specific functions, for individual police authorities —or, from November, have carried out those services, and many police forces the police and crime commissioners—to decide. around the country are utilising private companies to deliver some specialist services. Nationally, about £2 billion of savings needs to be I should apologise for the absence today of my right made by the police service by 2015. Her Majesty’s hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal inspectorate of constabulary has challenged forces to Justice, who is at the police superintendents conference drive through efficiencies, and it has shown that over and is therefore unable to respond to the debate. I know half the savings required nationally—some £1.15 billion— that he would want me to send his apologies. He has could be achieved by forces raising their performance to made the point, as the hon. Member for Sefton Central that of the average of comparator forces. may know—my right hon. Friend’s comments were Action to date in support of and among local forces reported in this morning’s newspapers—that the private includes our having extended the public sector pay sector can and does have a role in the delivery of certain freeze to police officers and staff, which will save at least services. We are clear, however, that the fundamental £350 million by the end of the spending review period. principle of warranted officers conducting police services Savings arising from the implementation of part 1 of is always to be the bedrock of policing. Although the Tom Winsor’s “Independent Review of Police Officers’ hon. Member for Sefton Central may find it strange to and Staff Remuneration and Conditions” will support think that private services can deliver, and assist in the chief officers in keeping posts and maintaining and delivery of efficient and effective services, we believe improving services for the public. The police can, and that there is a role for the private sector in such a are, making further savings by adopting an increasingly context. national approach to buying equipment and services, The hon. Gentleman asked about officer numbers. and forces can also make substantial savings in their IT The Government are clear that what matters is how spending. officers are used and deployed. For instance, when the On procurement, we are seeing the service operating last Government left office, about 25,000 officers and with increasing commercial intelligence and using its PCSOs were working in non-front-line roles. In some collective buying power to buy more smartly and at a cases, there may be understandable reasons for that, but reduced cost. We have supported the service in doing by and large that is not where the public expect to see that by mandating the use by all forces of specified them. It is not where their skills, experience and professional framework agreements for purchases in key categories judgment are best used and, frankly, it is not where they of goods and services, identified through the collaborative will deliver best value for money for the taxpayer. police procurement programme. The Select Committee on Home Affairs said in February There is already evidence of the service’s success in 2011: delivering even better value from national frameworks “We accept that there is no simple relationship between numbers by working together to purchase equipment through of police officers and levels of crime.” them. The service can go further in making procurement That point was reiterated in the report by Her Majesty’s savings through reducing the volume of spend, as well inspectorate of constabulary, “Policing in austerity: One as through price savings. The Government have consulted year on”, published in July 2012. It is borne out by the on extending the range of mandated categories and are evidence from the majority of forces, which, despite considering the consultation responses. They have also also experiencing reductions in budgets and officer 135WH Police Officer Reductions 12 SEPTEMBER 2012 136WH numbers, are successfully managing also to reduce crime Protecting the Antarctic in their areas. I pay tribute to their work and therefore disagree fundamentally with the analysis that the hon. 4.44 pm Member for Sefton Central sought to make. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): It is a great pleasure The Government have a clear vision, which focuses to be here under your chairmanship, Mr Turner; I look on restoring professional discretion and reducing forward to a happy half-hour. It is also great to see my bureaucracy in the police service. We are committed to hon. Friend the new Minister in his place. It is a great taking central Government out of local policing and honour to introduce what I think is the first Westminster concentrating instead on the national issues on which Hall debate that he has to answer. I am grateful to him the Government should focus. To increase local discretion, for coming along to do so. we have cut police red tape, saving 4.5 million police Protecting the Antarctic is a very important subject hours, the equivalent of 2,100 officer posts. Additionally, and one that I and many other people take very seriously. the Government are replacing bureaucratic accountability Recently, the Select Committee on Environmental Audit with local democratic accountability through directly has been doing some very interesting work on the elected police and crime commissioners. On national Arctic. That has raised a few issues about the importance issues, we are introducing the new national crime agency, of our polar regions in general, and it is therefore right which will lead the UK’s fight against serious and that we consider the Antarctic as well. I thank my organised crime, strengthen policing at the border and colleagues on the Environmental Audit Committee for ensure that local police are linked up to work nationally all their support of my interest in the Antarctic and, of and overseas. course, our work on the Arctic. What matters is how effective the police are at fighting This discussion about the Antarctic is timely because crime, and the effectiveness of a police force depends of course it is 100 years since Captain Robert Scott not on overall numbers but, ultimately, on how well it attempted to reach the south pole. He did so not just to deploys its resources. That is why although total officer get there first, but to undertake very important scientific numbers across England and Wales fell between March work. In doing all that and much more, he established 2011 and March 2012 by 3.6%, recorded crime also fell the British presence in the Antarctic that we think is so by 4.2%. I believe that that national picture is reflected important now. We need to ensure that we continue in Merseyside. with that. Merseyside has seen its central Government funding The other important link with Robert Scott is of reduced by 6.7% in 2012-13. This year, Merseyside is course his son. In Robert Scott’s last letter to his wife, receiving £264 million of Government revenue funding. he hoped that his two-year-old son would show an The local authority also agreed to increase council tax interest in the natural environment, and he certainly by 3%—it was one of 22 to do so—meaning that the did, because he helped to establish the World Wildlife authority is receiving an additional £64 million of funding Fund and he established the Wildfowl and Wetlands through precept for 2012-13. Plans show that Merseyside Trust, which is based in Slimbridge in my constituency. is planning to increase by 2015 the proportion of officers In addition, he worked extraordinarily hard to highlight on the front line from 85% to 91%, which is higher than the need to protect the Antarctic. I am therefore very most other forces. The force has also planned to have proud of the connection that my constituency of Stroud 76% of its total work force on the front line—again, a has with the Scott family, with that epic attempt to get higher proportion than most other forces. to the south pole and with the incredibly important Service delivery continues to be protected. In the past legacy that was left. year, recorded crime has remained flat in Sefton Central That is the background to why I am here, thinking and has fallen in each of the other Merseyside police about the Antarctic and wishing to promote and protect boroughs. Between March 2011 and March 2012, total it. Indeed, I will be promoting a private Member’s Bill recorded crime across Merseyside fell by 3.5%. The on the issue later in the autumn. If people want to know force currently retains more than 200 points at which more about the Antarctic, I can recommend a book by the public can access police services. I also point out Sara Wheeler, “Terra Incognita”. It is a brilliant and that victim satisfaction for Merseyside is, at 88%, greater very lively book. It talks about going down to the than the level for England and Wales as a whole. I pay Antarctic with the British Antarctic Survey—I will talk tribute to the work that is conducted in Merseyside. about that later—and the lifestyle that one can expect to Although we may disagree on a number of fundamental have in such a cold climate. Incidentally, the first human issues, I trust that the hon. Member for Sefton Central being to be born in the Antarctic was a Peruvian, and will agree with me that the vast majority of police forces that took place in 1978. are rising to the challenge posed by the funding and Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I congratulate work force reductions made necessary by the budget my hon. Friend on securing the debate and putting deficit, which, I say again, was caused by the actions of forward that very important Bill. If there is any need for his Government. proof of the affection in which the British people hold the Antarctic, we need only look to Edinburgh, where voters recently replaced a Lib Dem with a penguin. I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware of that. Neil Carmichael: Absolutely. I also followed the fate of Dirk the penguin. He went out drinking with some Australians and ended up in a pool with very aggressive fish, but he did survive, so obviously penguins are notable for a lot of things, not just standing— 137WH Protecting the Antarctic12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Protecting the Antarctic 138WH

Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): Like the hon. fishing and exploration for oil and minerals may well be Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith), I beneficial in some ways to the economy and the environment congratulate the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) of the Antarctic. on securing this enormously important debate. Antarctica, as he says, is uniquely important scientifically, climatically and environmentally. Is it not vital for the protection of Neil Carmichael: I thank my hon. Friend for that penguins, and flora and fauna in general, that there is intervention. The key point is that we need to ensure strict enforcement of the restriction on resource exploitation that, if pollution occurs, the polluter pays. We must also and unregulated fishing in Antarctica and, like me, does ensure that they go with insurance, rather than worry he look forward to hearing from the Minister what the about it after an accident. That is a critical part of the Government are doing to reinforce that strict enforcement? legislation I have brought forward. It underlines the fact that although we need people down there, they must conduct responsible activity in a responsible way that Neil Carmichael: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely protects the Antarctic and does not threaten or damage correct, and I thank him for that important contribution it. I thank him for giving me the opportunity to underline to the debate. He can be reassured that that is exactly that point. the direction of travel in which I think we need to be going. The Bill that I will be bringing to Parliament Shipping is worth noting, given the accidents in recent would strengthen those protection mechanisms, and I years. According to research I recently undertook, we hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be there to have had 12 significant incidents in five years. That support me on 2 November. again underlines the need to protect the area. The Antarctic is important for a number of reasons, I visited the British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge. not least its pivotal role in regulating the earth’s climate. It is partly the instrument of our presence in the Antarctic. I recognise, as we all do, the constraints on public The Southern ocean is a massive sink for CO2. Although it is obviously a harsh environment, we must all recognise funding at this time. The Natural Environment Research that it is also fragile, which is what the right hon. Council is a perfectly responsible body, but I hope that Gentleman was really alluding to. The challenges are when those two bodies come together, the role of the captured in the statistics, such as the fact that in the past BAS is still recognised for its importance in securing 30 years the air temperature has risen by 3° C and the our presence the Antarctic and in researching its interesting sea temperature by 1° C—87% of the glaciers are in history and the story it can tell of how the earth retreat. Without doubt, there are challenges to confront developed and how climate change, oddly enough, has and recognise in our thinking. been an issue for many centuries. If we drill into the ice, we can look back over 800,000 years to explore what There are also questions. For example, the number of has happened. That process alone—carried out by the krill—a relatively common, shrimp-like creature, stuffed BAS—has been of decisive importance. I ask the Minister full of protein—is starting to decrease, due to not only to think carefully about our presence in the Antarctic fishing, but environmental changes. Marine life in general and the role of scientific exploration there. also needs to be protected. That area of water alone contains 120 species of fish, which we must of course The purpose of today’s debate is to highlight the celebrate, but also ensure we can defend. importance of the Antarctic, to underline the need to protect its environment, to recognise its important role There are threats to the Antarctic that it is important in our global climate and to strengthen the argument to highlight today.We have considerable good international for a British presence there. That is why I am keen not co-operation. Britain has been a key leader in that only to talk about the Antarctic in general terms, but to process and we need to both salute and cement it. We do something about it. On 2 November, I will bring the have played a great part in the Antarctic, not only Antarctic Bill before Parliament for its Second Reading. because of Robert Scott and the Falklands, but because It has two parts. The first is about protecting the a whole host of foreign policy issues bring us to recognise environment, which hangs on insurance and the concept the pivotal role the area plays. Although we are still that the polluter pays, as we discussed earlier. It is an recognised as a key leader, it is our responsibility to important concept that we should apply to other areas demonstrate leadership now, as more and more nations that we need to protect, including the Arctic. The become more and more interested in the Antarctic. It is second part is about protecting marine life, vertebrates necessary to talk not only about protecting the environment, and other living creatures. The Antarctic is a sacred part although that is critical, but about Britain’s interests in of the globe. We must treat it as such and recognise that the region. it is fragile. It is a subject of interest across the globe, as Overfishing is a risk. I do not want to get into a the Antarctic treaty makes clear, which is why we must discussion about the common fisheries policy, because strengthen the treaty’s structure by recognising its place its area does not stretch that far, but we need to think in our domestic law. about protecting fish stocks. Finally, I return to Robert and Sir Peter Scott. They were of decisive importance to the natural environment. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I congratulate As we all know, Robert Scott is being celebrated as a my hon. Friend on securing this important and timely great explorer and a man of huge character who left a debate. He is of course right to say that we must do all massive legacy. We are building on that legacy. His son, we can to protect and preserve the fragile environment Sir Peter Scott, made a huge contribution to the natural of the Antarctic. Does he agree that that does not environment, with, in particular, the Wildfowl and Wetlands necessarily equate to doing nothing there? There are Trust in Slimbridge, and also the WWF, which he those who would ban any form of human activity in a helped to set up. It, too, is a critical supporter of the fragile environment of that kind, but properly controlled need to protect the Antarctic. 139WH Protecting the Antarctic12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Protecting the Antarctic 140WH

To sum up, our interests are to protect the Antarctic confident that, subject of course to the will of the for future generations, and to ensure that global climate House, the provisions set out in the first part of the Bill is properly understood in connection with the Antarctic offer a targeted, proportionate and reasonable way to and that Britain continues to deliver the necessary implement our international obligations. They will ensure leadership in the region. that those organising Antarctic expeditions and other tours take preventive measures and establish contingency plans to reduce the risk of environmental emergencies, 4.57 pm and that they secure insurance and other financial The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign security for response action in the event of such an and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): Iam emergency. A good example of that might well be in delighted to see you in the Chair, Mr Turner, for my first relation to oil leakage from a ship or other vessel. There Westminster Hall debate as a Minister. I congratulate is every opportunity to make a practical difference to my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael), protecting the Antarctic environment and its wildlife, as first, on securing the debate; secondly, on doing such well as to enhancing Britain’s international leadership detailed and through research into the subject, and, and strategic interests, which is also important. thirdly, on the lucid, articulate and knowledgeable way I want to be clear that there is no risk that the UK in which he introduced it. He detailed the important will be disadvantaged by early adoption of the proposals history of the Antarctic, his constituency links to it and in the Bill. The liability provisions will not come into his visit to Cambridge. I am delighted that my first force until all the international parties to the Antarctic Westminster Hall debate as a Minister is on this key treaty have adopted them. By acting now and leading environmental and important part of the globe. the way on this useful protection, we will be at the The debate is extremely timely. The Antarctic and the forefront in regard to influence and we will thereby environment should never be far from our thoughts, strengthen our leadership role, without tying our hands particularly because it is the world’s fifth largest continent— by adopting rules that other countries do not. nearly twice the size of Australia. The debate is timely The second part of my hon. Friend’s Bill details a because of the centenary of Captain Scott’s expedition range of changes to existing Antarctic legislation. The and the coming celebrations of Ernest Shackleton’s changes aim, first, to recognise and respond to the famous exploits on the Endurance. increasingly international flavour and co-operative nature Even though I have been in this office for only a short of scientific activity; secondly, to provide better protection period, I am aware that the UK has the oldest sovereign of historic sites and monuments, and thirdly, to ensure claim, stretching back to 1908, to any part of Antarctica, that the lists of protected species—fauna and flora—are and that we have maintained a strong and permanent up to date to reflect the likely pressures presented by presence there since 1943. I want to make sure that global temperature changes. everyone is aware that, as a nation, we should be proud Taking all those elements together, the Bill demonstrates of the continuing British presence in the region provided in a practical way—with the Government’s support—the by the skilled and dedicated men and women of the UK’s commitment to upholding the Antarctic treaty British Antarctic Survey and of the Royal Navy’s ice system and to having comprehensive environmental patrol ship HMS Protector. protection of Antarctica. The Government therefore I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that he was stand ready to support the passage of the Bill through seeking: the commitment to supporting the current the House. The Bill will ensure that our domestic legislation level of UK activity in the region, particularly scientific is among the most comprehensive in the world, which is research and tangential matters, will not change. I want good both for the Antarctic environment and for the to place it clearly on the record that the UK is firmly many people, British and others, who visit the continent committed to upholding the Antarctic treaty system, and do scientific research there. and we take our responsibilities towards the proper The right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) governance and environmental protection of the British made an important point about potential resource Antarctic territory extremely seriously. However, we are exploitation. I want to confirm that the UK is a key not complacent, as my hon. Friend and other hon. player in and is committed to the Commission for the Members will be interested and pleased to hear. We Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources, need to look consistently at what more we must do to which is the framework that regulates fishing in the protect and promote the future of the continent. Southern ocean. The architecture takes a very conservation- I want to acknowledge and reinforce the references based approach and, thanks to a UK proposal, there is that my hon. Friend made to the positive British influence already a large marine protected area in the Southern in the Antarctic treaty system. It is fair to say that it ocean. We are working with other members of that would be hard to find an international treaty that has organisation to promote further areas, and I hope that been more powerful, influential and successful in preventing such protection will be put in place in the future. unnecessary conflict and exploitation. As he rightly I want to confirm, as this relates to the point made pointed out, the environmental provisions of that treaty by my hon. Friend the Member for North Wiltshire were brought into domestic law by the Antarctic Act (Mr Gray), that, absolutely without question, the 1994, but it is right that we continue to review the Government agree about the importance of peaceful importance and the workings of the legislative architecture human activities in support of peace and science. Tourism surrounding Antarctica. and fishing are very strictly regulated, and hydrocarbon That is why we are particularly delighted that my extraction is prohibited under the Antarctic treaty. Given hon. Friend has introduced his Bill. The UK is already the fragile environment—a key point made by other committed, absolutely rightly, to implementing such hon. Members—we fully support the continuation of provisions and related ones into domestic law. I am this indefinite prohibition. 141WH Protecting the Antarctic12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Protecting the Antarctic 142WH

Mr Gray: It is of course very important that hydrocarbon Antarctica for the good of all, and we are keen to extraction could be prevented in the Antarctic. However, maintain the UK as a leading force. Now is exactly the it does occur in the south Atlantic, and it is terribly right time to renew and refocus our efforts to protect important that the strongest possible environmental this sensitive region to ensure that it remains a place of controls should be applied to oil exploration off the peace and co-operation into the next generation and Falklands and down towards Antarctica to prevent oil beyond. spills and so on from affecting that continent. I am extremely happy to meet my hon. Friend, and other Members if they are so interested, to discuss the Mark Simmonds: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. detail of the Bill to make sure that we get it exactly That is one of the main focuses of the first part of the right. I look forward to debating its finer points later Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for this year. I very much hope that, with co-operation, Stroud, which will be debated on the Floor of the the Bill will receive an expeditious passage through the House later this year. It is absolutely essential that we House. maintain the prohibition within the Antarctic treaty Question put and agreed to. area. To conclude, Antarctica is vast, but it is vulnerable, as we have heard. The UK has a long and proud history of 5.8 pm active, positive engagement and leadership in protecting Sitting adjourned. 9WS Written Ministerial Statements12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS

The UN resolution calls upon UN member states to Written Ministerial undertake concrete actions at local, national, and international levels to promote and strengthen a culture Statements of peace. The unanimous co-sponsorship of the resolution afforded an important foundation for the UK to work in partnership with a broad range of international Wednesday 12 September 2012 actors that included Governments, parliamentarians, national Olympic committees, the UN and civil society, including faith groups and non-governmental organisations (NGOs). DEFENCE We wanted to show that the UN resolution could be translated into international action. Our diplomatic Reserves (Call Out Order) missions across our network and the FCO in London arranged over 70 events and activities which showed how important the contribution of youth, women and The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr Andrew those with disabilities is in promoting peace through Robathan): On 16 February 2012 an order was made sport, culture, education and wider public engagement. under section 56(1A) of the Reserve Forces Act 1996 to While activities took place in every continent, we specifically enable 2,100 reservists to be brought into permanent wanted to bring the Olympic truce to life in conflict service as part of defence’s contribution to the safety affected and fragile countries. and security of the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games. For example, in Sri Lanka we hosted a Paralympic-style On 7 August 2012 authority was granted to raise the sports day for disabled soldiers, disabled ex-Liberation number of reservists to 2,300. Tigers of Tamil Eelam (ex-LTTE) combatants and disabled In total 2,258 reservists were brought into permanent civilians. Sport demonstrated its mediating influence, service. bringing together former adversaries to understand each others’ perspectives, embracing diversity and encouraging Some provided specialist capabilities and expertise inclusivity. In Khartoum we brought together young to defence’s support to the police and other civil and people from different communities in Sudan and South Olympic authorities, while the majority formed part Sudan, specifically refugees and residents from Darfur of the support to Olympic venue security operations; met to play in a football tournament, which supported a substantive contribution to what has widely been ongoing work to create a youth football league. In acknowledged as a successful and positive opportunity Mindanao, in the Philippines, we co-hosted with the to interact with the British public and advertise the Zamboanga City Government and Zamboanga Football nation’s strengths to overseas observers. Association “Time out for football”, a football tournament The order ceases to have effect on 20 September 2012. and clinic bringing people together from a diverse range of communities, bridging gaps between Christians and FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Muslims. In Armenia, Pakistan and Trinidad and Tobago, children portrayed what the Olympic truce means to Olympic Truce them through art. As the Foreign Secretary said when speaking at the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign international Paralympic inclusion summit on 6 September, and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds): I wish to inform the House about the Government’s work on “We wanted to create a legacy that would last a lifetime. On responding to the UN General Assembly’s resolution top of the Government’s financial and political commitment to on the Olympic truce of October 2011. conflict prevention and poverty reduction, we decided to mobilise It was a real honour for the UK to have the responsibility the ideals of the Olympic truce”. to promote the Olympic truce message. We worked The UK is the first games host to deliver this level of closely on delivering an international response to the international ambition for the Olympic truce. The UN Olympic truce, working with the London Organising Secretary-General, in the presence of the International Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic games, the Olympic Committee, recognised the UK’s Olympic truce Department for International Development, the Ministry work on the eve of the opening ceremony of the London of Defence and the Department for Culture Media and 2012 games. Now others are seeking to build on our Sport. experience. We are currently sharing our experience On 17 October 2011, the Foreign and Commonwealth with the UN Secretary-General’s Special Adviser’s Office Office secured unanimous co-sponsorship, by all 193 United on sport and development for peace, as well as with Nations member states, for a UN General Assembly Russia, which will next take stewardship of the Olympic resolution on the Olympic truce entitled “Building a truce in 2013, ahead of the Sochi winter games in 2014. peaceful and better world through sport and the Olympic This level of international interest, paired with our ideal”. Since then we have taken the conflict prevention continued engagement, will help cement our legacy of and peace ideals of the UN resolution internationally encouraging future games hosts to promote the ideals as part of our diplomatic work to build stability overseas. of the Olympic truce in their own ways.

1P Petitions12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Petitions 2P

than 100 hours per week, as the Petitioners believe that Petitions adequate pharmaceutical services are already provided by the network of three well established pharmacies Wednesday 12 September 2012 and that these unnecessary and undesirable new pharmacies will jeopardise the existing businesses that have provided personal care to customers for more than 40 years. OBSERVATIONS The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to ask Dudley Primary Care Trust to reject any application for the opening of HEALTH further pharmacies in Brierly Hill town centre. Access to homeopathic medicines And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Chris Kelly, Official Report, 16 July 2012; Vol. 548, c. 812.] The Humble Petition of the citizens of the UK. [P001111] Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about proposed changes to the Medicines Act that may restrict Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: access to homeopathic medicine. The proposals, which are the subject of this petition, Wherefore your Petitioners request that the House of are for local consideration. The NHS (Pharmaceutical Commons urges the Government to ensure that any Services) Regulations allow primary care trusts to take changes to the Medicine Act allow greater freedom to local representations into consideration before granting homeopathic practitioners to dispense remedies. applications, subject to appeal. And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c.—[Presented by Jim Shannon, Official Report, 17 July 2012; Vol. 548, c. 956.] [P001112] Rushden Ambulance Station (Northamptonshire) Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: The Humble Petition of residents of Rushden, Higham The Medicines Act 1968 and the some 200 statutory Ferrers, East Northamptonshire, and surrounding areas instruments which made up the fragmented UK medicines Sheweth, legislation have been consolidated into one set of regulations; the Human Medicines Regulations 2012. That the proposed closure of Rushden Ambulance These came into force on 14 August 2012. The consolidation station will detrimentally affect the 97,500 people that exercise did not change the legislative provisions governing live in the local area, reducing response time and providing the sale and supply of homeopathic medicines. an inferior service. Development of provisions to allow homeopathic Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable practitioners to dispense remedies would need detailed House requests the Secretary of State for Health to urge consideration of the policy and legal implications of the Northamptonshire County Council, the District any reforms to the existing pharmacy provisions. It Council of East Northamptonshire and East Midlands would also require a full public consultation. Ambulance Service to work together to find a solution Such a change would represent a very significant that will allow the Rushden Ambulance station to remain move away from the current position. The proposals open. could not be taken forward without detailed and sustained And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever assessment and consideration and could not be introduced pray, &c.—[Presented by Mr Peter Bone, Official Report, simply as an amendment to the regulations. 16 July 2012; Vol. 548, c. 812.] Independent pharmacy provision in Brierley Hill Dudley [P001110] The Petition of users of McArdles Pharmacy, Brierley Observations from the Secretary of State for Health: Hill and others, The issue referred to is to be subject to a local Declares that the Petitioners are concerned about consultation exercise. I will ask NHS Midlands & East proposals to allow three further pharmacies to open in to ensure the views of the petitioners are fully taken Brierley Hill town centre that will each trade for more into account.

223W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 224W Written Answers to ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Floods Questions Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his Department plans to compensate or provide relief to Wednesday 12 September 2012 those affected by recent flooding in (a) Barnsley Central constituency, (b) South Yorkshire and (c) England and Wales. [119494] HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Richard Benyon [holding answer 6 September 2012]: Hearing Impairment With regard to the flooding across England in June and July, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Mr Winnick: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Government, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), activated the Bellwin Commons Commission, (1) what arrangements the House scheme of emergency financial assistance to help local of Commons Commission plans to make for facilities authorities with their immediate costs associated with in committee rooms for hon. Members and visitors who protecting life and property in their areas. I am advised are hard of hearing; and if he will make a statement; that Barnsley did not apply for these schemes and the [119515] deadline for registration has now passed. (2) what arrangements the House of Commons Going forward the Government stands ready to consider Commission plans to make in rooms used for select future requests for assistance, including financial, that committees for the hard of hearing when the meeting we receive, and we will consider all requests sympathetically. goes into private session; and if he will make a statement; The Welsh Government is responsible for flood risk [119513] policy in Wales. (3) what arrangements the House of Commons Horses: Databases Commission plans to make in rooms used regularly by political parties for those hard of hearing; and if he will Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [119514] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what financial savings he expects to arise as a result of the closure of John Thurso: There are induction loop facilities in all the National Equine Database. [118798] committee rooms in the Palace and in all committee Mr Heath: DEFRA expects to save some £200,000 and conference rooms on the first floor of Portcullis per annum as a result of the closure of the National House. Portable equipment is available for the smaller Equine Database. meeting rooms in both buildings. Induction loop facilities are also provided in the Public Gallery of the House of Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Commons Chamber and in Westminster Hall Chamber. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether any When a select committee meets in public the induction other organisations offered to take over the running of loop facility is operational. When the meeting goes into the National Equine Database prior to the decision to private session, it is normal for the loop to be switched close the database. [118799] to private mode which prevents it transmitting a signal Mr Heath: A total of 19 bids were received in response and thus eliminates the risk of the committee’s private to a formal procurement exercise. This was run in order deliberations being intercepted outside the room. It is to assess the costs and benefits of a successor to the possible to leave the loop switched on during a private National Equine Database. session; the decision to do so is for the committee chair. Both the Parliamentary Labour Party and the 1922 Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Committee regularly hold meetings in Committee Room Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what alternative 14. The loop facilities in this room have been adapted to arrangements his Department has put in place to allow both fixed and roving microphone output to be facilitate information gathering currently undertaken broadcast through the loop. The decision to use this by the National Equine Database. [118800] facility is for the chair of the meeting. Mr Heath: The National Equine Database operates The House is committed to facilitating access and as a central repository of horse passport data, supplied supporting people with disabilities in participating in by horse passport issuing organisations (PIOs). PIOs House activities and continues to make improvements will continue to be required to collect and store horse including to physical access, the provision of services passport data, which will remain available for regulatory and the educating of those providing those services. and legal purposes. One of the four priority areas of the House’s Diversity and Inclusion Scheme, launched in March 2012, is ‘Ensuring access and inclusion’, which covers the need DEFENCE to improve accessibility for disabled stakeholders including Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile Members, staff and visitors to the parliamentary estate. The provision of facilities for those who are hard of Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for hearing will be kept under review as part of this scheme. Defence (1) what assessment he has made of the If the hon. Member has further questions on this implications for the armed forces of reports of a fault matter, the Director of Accommodation and Logistics with the Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Services would be happy to discuss them with him. Missile’s rocket motors; [119545] 225W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 226W

(2) how many Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air These figures can also be found on the DASA website: Missiles the Royal Air Force has available for use; and http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/index. when the most recent missile was delivered; [119594] php?page=48&pubType=0&thiscontent=120&PublishTime (3) how many successful firings of the Advanced =09:30:00&date=:2012-08-16&disText=01%20July%202012& Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile have taken place for from=listing&topDate=2012-08-16 each model of missile and aircraft type it was fired from in each of the last eight years. [119595] Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency

Mr Dunne: The most recent Advanced Medium-Range Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) was delivered to the Defence what collaborative works his Department is UK on 25 October 2006. The Ministry of Defence does undertaking with the US Defence Advanced Research not comment on the specific number of its weapons Projects Agency. [119538] systems stockpiles as disclosure would, or would be likely to, prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence currently has no of the armed forces. specific active project arrangements or information The AMRAAM system is subjected to regular and exchanges with the US Defence Advanced Research rigorous testing throughout its life. These weapons are Projects Agency. not affected by an alleged fault on new production rocket motors that has been reported in the media. Defence Equipment There are no plans to procure any additional AMRAAM systems, as they will be replaced in due course by the new Meteor missile that is in the final stages of development. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Trial firings of AMRAAM in each of the last eight Defence how many Satcom kits were purchased for years and the type of aircraft from which they were the R1 Sentinel in the latest period for which figures are fired are shown in the following table: available; and what the average cost was per unit. [120291] Typhoon Tornado F3 Sea Harrier AIM- AIM- AIM- AIM- AIM- AIM- Mr Dunne: Five satellite communications systems 120B 120C-5 120B 120C-5 120B 120C-5 were purchased, one for each of the Sentinel R1 aircraft. An average cost per unit is not available. The prime 2004 002020contract to design, supply and support the aircraft did 2005 300200not require the costs of the satellite communications 2006 001000systems to be separately identified. 2007 200000 2008 121000Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 300000Defence what equipment from Type 23 vessels will be 2010 100000transferred to Type 26 vessels; what the value is of such 2011 310000equipment; and what the cost will be of transferring 2012 000000such equipment. [120293] All firings have been successful. No operational firings Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence plans to maximise have taken place. the use of proven Type 23 (T23s) equipment in the future Type 26 Global Combat Ships (T26 GCS) to Armed Forces minimise cost and technical risk. This will include using, wherever possible, the physical transfer of equipment Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for from the decommissioned T23s to the T26 GCS. The Defence whether he plans to publish data for 2012 extent of this transfer is being explored as part of the relating to the number of services and civilian jobs ongoing T26 GCS Assessment Phase to ensure such an directly and indirectly related to his Department’s work approach is best value for money for defence. in (a) each country and region of the UK and (b) Decisions about the scope of technology and equipment elsewhere in the world. [120097] transfer will be taken at the main investment decision, which is currently scheduled for the middle of this decade. Mr Francois: Information on jobs indirectly related to the Ministry of Defence’s work is not held. Civilian Defence Infrastructure Organisation and service employment details directly related to the MOD’s work in each country and region of the UK and overseas are published in the 1 July 2012 edition of Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Quarterly Location Statistics (QLS) publication Defence how many people were employed by his which was released on 16 August 2012 according to the Department’s Defence Infrastructure Organisation in arrangements approved by the UK Statistics Authority. (a) Scotland, (b) England, (c) Northern Ireland and This is a quarterly publication presenting information (d) Wales in each year since 2011. [120309] on the stationed location of all UK regular service and civilian personnel by UK unitary authority and local Mr Francois: The number of people employed by the authority area, as well as all international global locations. Defence Infrastructure Organisation in (a) Scotland, I have arranged for copies of the 1 July 2012 edition of (b) England, (c) Northern Ireland and (d) Wales in the QLS to be placed in the Library of the House. each year since 2011 is shown in the following table: 227W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 228W

RAF Menwith Hill 1 April 2011 1 April 2012

Scotland 270 220 Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for England 2,600 2,170 Defence whether RAF Menwith Hill plays a role in the Northern Ireland 240 170 planning and deployment of drones in (a) Afghanistan, Wales 100 80 (b) Pakistan, (c) Yemen and (d) Somalia. [120438] Mr Robathan: For operational and security reasons we do not comment on the specific activities carried out Hercules Aircraft at RAF Menwith Hill. Reserve Forces Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what comparative assessment he has made of Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for the (a) size of radar signature, (b) ability to penetrate Defence how many armed forces reservists are ordinarily hostile airspace at low-level and (c) ability to land on resident in Rutherglen and Hamilton West constituency. rough short airstrips of the A400M and C-130J [120418] aircraft. [119549] Mr Francois: Information relating to where serving Mr Dunne: I refer the hon. Member to the answer members of the reserves reside in a given constituency is given by my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member not held centrally and could be provided only at for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), on 19 June 2012, disproportionate cost. Official Report, column 935W. This highlighted the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency ongoing A400M Atlas multinational trial programme which will cover the ability of the aircraft to use rough Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for landing strips. There is also a plan to assess the radar Defence what the average processing time was for cross-section of the A400M Atlas; the radar cross-sections enquiries received by (a) telephone, (b) email and (c) of the C-130J and K are already known. Once this post at the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency in study is complete, a comparative assessment of the each of the last 24 months for which figures are A400M Atlas and both C-130 Hercules variants could available. [120043] be made. The ability of A400M Atlas to fly at low-level is also being evaluated by Airbus. This information, Mr Francois: Where available data held on the average when combined with the radar cross-section data, will processing time for inquiries received by the Service allow an assessment to be made of the aircraft’s ability Personnel and Veterans Agency (SPVA) is shown in the to penetrate hostile airspace at low-level. table. Once these trials are completed by Airbus and the It is not possible to provide the average processing results evaluated, the outcome will be presented to time for letters and e-mails received by either the Joint A400M Atlas partner nations. They will collectively Personnel Administration Centre (JPAC) or other functional make an assessment of this information and whether areas within SPVA as the data for these is not held in the aircraft’s performance meets the agreed requirement. this format. No conclusions can yet be drawn in comparative terms The latter includes addressing claims under the War of the performances of the A400M Atlas and C-130J Pension Scheme and Armed Forces Compensation Scheme, Hercules. many of which require detailed investigation.

Veterans Helpline JPAC Month Tel (Mins) Letters (Working days) E-mails (Working days) Tel (Mins)

2010 September 3.03 3.6 1.7 4.33 October 3.02 1.2 1.2 4.08 November 3.03 2.6 1.6 3.51 December 3.05 1.7 1.5 3.45

2011 January 3.04 2.9 1.4 3.54 February 3.05 1.7 1.2 4.22 March 3.00 1.8 1.5 4.18 April 2.56 1.5 1.2 4.06 May 3.04 2 1.5 4.17 June 3.07 1.8 1.3 4.21 July 3.05 3 1.3 4.20 August 3.15 2.8 1.4 4.09 September 3.10 2.1 1.8 4.07 October 3.16 2.9 1.5 3.57 November 3.16 2.6 1.5 3.46 229W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 230W

Veterans Helpline JPAC Month Tel (Mins) Letters (Working days) E-mails (Working days) Tel (Mins)

December 3.10 2.7 1.3 3.53

2012 January 3.21 2 1.2 3.51 February 3.34 2.4 1.3 3.58 March 3.26 3.4 1.7 4.08 April 3.46 3.3 2.6 4.08 May 4.40 3.9 2.1 4.07 June 3.39 2.8 2.6 4.04 July 4.02 2.7 1.3 4.02 August 3.48 3.3 2.9 4.03

Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dunne: There are currently no plans for the Parc Defence how his Department ensures that service Aberporth facility to be used in the further development personnel and veterans who use the Service Personnel of Unmanned Air Systems, following the completion of and Veterans Agency (SPVA) are satisfied with the the flight trials of all Watchkeeper production aircraft standard of service which they receive from the SPVA. in 2015. [120044] Warships Mr Francois: The Service Personnel and Veterans Agency (SPVA)conducts an annual customer satisfaction Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for survey with service personnel, veterans and its corporate Defence (1) which ships will be upgraded under the customers. Combat Management System Joint Support Solution; what systems will be installed on each ship; and when Service personnel have been surveyed via the Joint each such installation will (a) begin and (b) be Personnel Administration system since it was rolled out completed; [119596] in 2007. The 2011 survey recorded an 85% overall satisfaction with SPVA services. (2) if he will estimate the cost to the public purse of implementing the Combat Management System Joint In January each year, a random selection of some Support Solution (a) in total and (b) for each vessel to 13,000 veterans are invited to either complete a hard be upgraded under that contract. [119597] copy of the Veterans Survey or online via the Veterans UK website. The 2011 Veterans Survey recorded a 92% Mr Dunne: The Combat Management System Joint overall satisfaction with SPVA services. Support Solution is a contract between the Ministry of On an annual basis, a senior representative of SPVA’s Defence and BAE Systems Integrated Systems Technology 12 corporate customers are invited to be interviewed. Ltd, awarded in December 2010, which provides support The 2011 survey recorded a 75% overall satisfaction for on board Combat Systems by effectively managing with services provided by SPVA. spares and obsolescence. The SPVAoverall target for achievement of customer The contract value is up to £49 million over its six satisfaction is 80% with no less than 70% satisfaction in year duration and covers a total of 23 ships (13 Type 23 each of the three separate customer segments. The frigates, six Type 45 destroyers, HMS Ocean, HMS SPVA’s combined assessment for 2011 was 84.22%. Bulwark, HMS Albion and RFA Argus). The contract does not separately identify the cost of Unmanned Air Vehicles supporting each individual ship.

Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the cost to the public purse will be of the TREASURY new Unmanned Air Systems Capability Development Centre at Boscombe Down in each of the next five Corporation Tax years. [119528] Andrew Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Dunne: I refer the right hon. Member to the what revenue was generated by corporation tax in (a) answer given by my predecessor, my hon. Friend the 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012 to date. [120403] Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), on 3 September 2012, Official Report, column 72W, to the Mr Gauke: Net corporation tax cash receipts are hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson). published jointly by the Office for National Statistics and HM Treasury in table PSF6 of the Public Sector Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Finances publication. Defence what plans his Department has for the development The latest update, covering receipts to July 2012, is of unmanned aerial vehicle technology at Parc Aberporth; available at the following link: and if he will make a statement. [119639] http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/psf.pdf 231W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 232W

Andrew Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the These estimates take account only of the measures Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effect affecting the under 65s personal allowance. They do not of the reduction in the rate of corporation tax on include the impacts of recently announced changes to competitiveness. [120405] age-related allowances. These estimates are based on the 2009-10 Survey of Mr Gauke: The Government aims to create the most Personal Incomes, projected to 2013-14 using economic competitive tax regime in the G20. The main rate of assumptions consistent with the Office for Budget corporate tax has been reduced from 28% in 2010 to Responsibility’s March 2012 economic and fiscal outlook. 24% in April this year, and will then fall to 23% in April Reliable estimates are not available at lower levels of 2013 and 22% in April 2014, when the UK will have the geography due to greater uncertainties in making projections lowest corporation tax rate in the G7 and the fourth for small geographical areas and small sample sizes. lowest in the G20. Reforms to the corporate tax regime have made the LIBOR UK more competitive, stemming the flow of businesses leaving and encouraging companies to come back, or to Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Chancellor of move here for the first time. the Exchequer (1) what information he has received from the Financial Services Authority on whether (a) Income Tax sterling LIBOR and (b) other currency LIBOR rates have been affected by the actions of Barclays; [117499] Andrew Percy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (2) if he will take steps to ensure that suitable measures how many people in the smallest geographical area for for redress will be made available to UK businesses which information is available will no longer pay income mis-sold financial products based on LIBOR if banks tax as a result of changes to the income tax threshold are found to be guilty of rate manipulation. [117543] announced since May 2010. [120624] Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Gauke: The June 2010 Budget announced a £1,000 Exchequer what assessment his Department has made cash increase in the income tax personal allowance for of the potential effects of the fixing of the LIBOR on under 65s to £7,475 in 2011-12 (£820 above RPI indexation), the ability of UK banks to (a) remain solvent and (b) with real terms gains focused on basic rate taxpayers operate without payments from the public purse during through a £1,400 cash reduction in the higher rate 2008. [118186] threshold in income tax. Greg Clark: On 27 June the FSA fined Barclays Bank The 2011 Budget announced a £630 cash increase in Plc (Barclays) £59.5 million for misconduct relating to the personal allowance for under 65s to £8,105 in 2012-13 the London Interbank Offered Rate (LIBOR) and the (£240 above RPI indexation), with an equivalent reduction Euro Interbank Offered Rate (EURIBOR) between in the basic rate limit to leave the higher rate threshold 2005 and 2008. This is the largest fine ever imposed by unchanged. the FSA. Barclays was separately fined £230 million by The 2012 Budget announced a £1,100 cash increase the US regulatory authorities. in the personal allowance for under 65s to £9,205 in Such misconduct includes attempted manipulation. 2013-14, (£850 above expected RPI indexation), along In some cases those attempts were to lower the final with a £2,125 reduction of the basic rate limit so that LIBOR rate, and in others they were to increase it. Such most higher rate taxpayers will get one quarter of the attempts may only have moved the overall LIBOR rate benefit a typical basic rate taxpayer will receive. by a fraction of a percentage point, if at all. Consequently As a result of these measures, the Government estimates it is very difficult to establish any sort of net effect from that 1.97 million of the lowest income taxpayers will be the attempted manipulation. removed from tax altogether in 2013-14. Information at The Government believes that this and other recent Government office region is provided in the following examples of misconduct in the banking sector are table: completely unacceptable. This is why the Government is taking action now, including comprehensive reform of Number taken out of income tax the regulatory system. Government office region (thousand)

North-east 80 Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer North-west and Merseyside 224 when his Department was first made aware of LIBOR Yorkshire and the Humber 170 fixing allegations; by whom; what immediate response East midlands 152 it made; and if he will publish any associated West midlands 172 correspondence or briefings held by his Department. East of England 176 [118184] London 223 South-east 255 Greg Clark: As was the practice of previous Administrations, it is not appropriate to disclose discussions South-west 172 which Government Ministers may have held with interested Wales 95 parties. Scotland 162 Northern Ireland 57 Regulators in North America, Europe and Japan, Address abroad/unknown 32 including the Financial Services Authority (FSA) are All 1,970 currently investigating alleged manipulation of LIBOR and other leading international benchmark rates such 233W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 234W as the Euro Interbank Offered Rate (EURIBOR) by Greg Clark: Treasury Ministers and officials meet other banks. HM Treasury cannot comment on individual with, and receive representations from, a wide range of cases or banks, or other aspects of current investigations, organisations and individuals in the public and private so as not to prejudice these inquiries in any way. sectors as part of the usual policymaking process. As was the case with previous Administrations, it is not the Loans Government’s practice to provide details of all such representations. Chris Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has any plans to change the law on the UK Trade and Investment advertising of interest rates on commercial loans. [120419] Mr MacNeil: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what Barnett consequentials have been paid to Scotland Greg Clark: There are no plans to change the law on in respect of resources allocated to UK Trade and the advertising of interest rates on commercial loans. Investment since the establishment of the Scottish Parliament. [120554] Minimum Wage Danny Alexander: UK Trade and Investment is a Hazel Blears: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer UK-wide body which works for businesses across the what estimate he has made of the cost to HM Revenue UK, including in the devolved administrations. As such, and Customs of enforcing national minimum wage no Barnett consequentials have been paid to Scotland legislation in relation to unpaid internships in the latest in respect of resources allocated to UK Trade and period for which figures are available. [120217] Investment since the establishment of the Scottish Parliament. Mr Gauke: HMRC does not hold the information Work Experience requested. Mortgages Hazel Blears: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many complaints were made to HM Revenue and Caroline Nokes: To ask the Chancellor of the Customs about unpaid internships in (a) 2009-10, (b) Exchequer (1) what provision the Government has put 2010-11 and (c) 2011-12. [120104] in place for people over 75 seeking to remortgage who may be considered by banks and building societies to Mr Gauke: HMRC classifies its minimum wage investigations as either complaints received from workers be high risk; [120184] or those that HMRC generates itself using intelligence (2) what steps the Government has taken to ensure based risk assessment processes. high street banks and building societies do not discriminate Before August 2011, HMRC did not specifically collect against people over 75 who wish to remortgage. [120185] information on whether workers making complaints Greg Clark: There is no law or FSA regulation stipulating about non-payment of the minimum wage were interns. a maximum age for mortgage borrowers. Under the In 2011-12, 43 complaints were received from workers FSA’s rules, firms are required to provide a prompt, fair who stated that they were interns. This represents and efficient service to all their customers, regardless of approximately 3% of the total number of complaints their age. referred to HMRC from the Pay and Work Rights Decisions concerning the pricing and availability of Helpline. mortgages are commercial decisions for individual lenders, In response to extensive media commentary on the and the Government do not seek to intervene in these widespread abuse of workers’ rights through the use of decisions. unpaid interns, HMRC commenced a multi-stranded approach to tackling non-compliance related to unpaid Revenue and Customs: Chadwell Heath workers, including interns. This comprised working with the Pay and Work Rights Helpline to establish a fast John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the track process for dealing with all intern-related queries Exchequer whether his approval was sought in respect from workers across all trade sectors. Under this process of the decision to close the HM Revenue and Customs all intern-related calls are being directed to the HMRC enquiry centre in Chadwell Heath. [120596] NMW Dynamic Response Team (DRT) for immediate action to establish the facts from workers and investigate Mr Gauke: I was formally advised by HMRC on the employers’ practices in appropriate cases. 17 July of the proposed merger of the Chadwell Heath The second element of the approach was to carry out and Romford Enquiry Centres and noted the position. targeted enforcement activity within the fashion and HMRC also advised my hon. Friend the Member for TV/film production sectors. Follow-up action on this Romford (Andrew Rosindell) and the hon. Member for targeted enforcement is to be carried out in September Ilford South (Mike Gapes) about this change. Civil and October 2012. service trade unions were also notified of this proposal and noted the position. Santander Group WORK AND PENSIONS Employment Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what representations his Department has Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and received on Santander transferring customers away from Pensions (1) when his Department last considered the the free for life business banking account. [119916] help made available by Jobcentre Plus and other 235W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 236W

Government agencies to persons previously in full-time the City of Edinburgh local authority area; and what employment who have undergone a reduction in their proportion of such placements are with smaller employers. contracted hours to between 16 and 25 hours per week [120375] and who require secondary or alternative employment; [120310] Mr Hoban: The youth contract went live in April (2) if he will take steps to provide assistance in job 2012. It includes wage incentives to employers taking placement services to persons previously in full-time on young people attached to the work programme and employment who have undergone a reduction in their extra work experience and sector- based work academy contracted hours to between 16 and 25 hours per week placements. and who require secondary or alternative employment. [120312] In most cases wage incentives are paid after a young person has been in work continuously for 26-weeks. Mr Hoban: Jobcentre Plus provides a public-access Following the collection and quality assurance of this employment service to jobseekers irrespective of their data, I expect the first set of official statistics on wage employment status or hours of work. This means people incentive payment data to be available from early 2013. facing reduced hours already have access to the Jobcentre The Department is working to guidelines set by the UK Plus national vacancy database. They can use Jobpoints Statistics Authority to ensure we publish statistics that in local Jobcentres or the DirectGov internet jobs search meet high quality standards at the earliest opportunity. facility to identify opportunities for secondary or alternative Official statistics for work experience and sector-based employment. work academy starts from the start of the youth contract This job search support will be enhanced later this in April 2012 to May 2012 show: year with the introduction of the new Universal Jobmatch service. This will make job search easier by automatically Work experience starts (April and May) matching a jobseeker’s CV, skills and requirements to GB (excludes Northern Ireland) 9,870 jobs that suit their needs. Scotland 1,030 Support for people seeking to find more work or City of Edinburgh LA 40 improve their prospects is under active consideration as part of the changes associated with the introduction of Sector-based work academy starts (April and May) universal credit which will start to be introduced from next year. GB (excludes Northern Ireland 2410 and Wales) Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Scotland 200 Pensions what recent estimate he has made of the City of Edinburgh LA 20 number of people of each gender who have undergone Note: a reduction in their contracted hours to between 16 and All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 25 hours per week as a result of employer downsizing We do not routinely collect data on employers by size operations who are (a) under 45 years old and (b) and neither do we require claimants to tell us which 45 years old or more. [120311] employer they have successfully found work with, therefore we do not know what proportion of placements are Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the with small employers. Cabinet Office. The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Independent Living Fund to reply. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2012: Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I and Pensions what discussions he has had with the have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what recent estimate has been made of the number of people of Welsh Government on the future of the independent each gender who have undergone a reduction in their contracted living fund. [120226] hours to between 16 and 25 hours per week as a result of employer downsizing operations who are (a) under 45 years old and (b) 45 years old or more. 120311 Esther McVey: Prior to the launch of the ongoing consultation on the future of the independent living The requested information is not available. fund, the previous Minister for Disabled People, my The Labour Force Survey measures both the usual weekly right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria hours worked and the actual hours worked by employed individuals. Miller), discussed our plans with Lesley Griffiths AM, Respondents who are actually working fewer hours than usual or would like to work more hours than present are recorded. However, the Minister for Health and Social Care in the Welsh it is not possible to determine those who have had their usual Government. There has also been discussion at official hours reduced due to a change in contracted hours as a result of level between DWP and the Welsh Government prior to employer downsizing. and during the consultation process.

Employment Schemes: Young People Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions whether it is his intention that when the Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for administration of the independent living fund is transferred Work and Pensions how many youth contract placements to the Welsh Government, its funding allocation will have been started in (a) the UK, (b) Scotland and (c) also be transferred. [120230] 237W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 238W

Esther McVey: As set out in the consultation document (5) whether the contract for delivery of the personal on the future of the independent living fund, the independence payment (PIP) includes any targets to Government’s preferred position is that the independent reduce (a) the number of people who receive PIP and living fund is closed in 2015 and that funding would be (b) the amount paid out through PIP. [119485] devolved to the Administrations in Wales and Scotland. Esther McVey: 10 organisations were appointed to Pensions: Financial Assistance Scheme the Health and Disability Assessment Services Framework and were eligible to bid for the contract to deliver personal independence payment assessments. Of these, Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for six organisations bid for the contract to deliver personal Work and Pensions (1) how many people are making independence payment assessments; they were APM repayments to the Financial Assistance Scheme; Ltd, Atos Origin, Avanta Enterprises Ltd, Capita Group [119984] plc, G4S Integrated Services (UK) Ltd and Vertex Ltd. (2) how many people have failed to repay in their To date, the number of representations received regarding lifetime the entire sum they owned to the Financial the award of the contract to deliver personal independence Assistance Scheme; how many such people have repaid payment assessments to Atos Origin is seven. These more than the sum they owed to the scheme; and representations have come from claimants, parliamentary whether there has been a net loss or net gain to the questions, Freedom of Information requests and Members public purse as a result; [119986] of Parliament. (3) what steps are taken to remove repayment deductions We have built robust expectations of performance from the pension of pensioners who have repaid in full into the contracts with Atos Origin and Capita Group money owed to the Financial Assistance Scheme. plc; these include a range of remedies which allow the [119987] Department to take action on minor, as well as more significant, poor performance. Steve Webb: 3,881 people are repaying money to the In addition, within two years of go-live, an independent Financial Assistance scheme (FAS), of these 3,846 had review will be carried out, along the lines of Professor their FAS assistance adjusted to take account of the Harrington’s reviews of the work capability assessment. overpayment. The remainder have no ongoing entitlement Redacted copies of the Atos Origin and Capita Group to FAS payments. plc tender documents were published on Contracts The information requested in respect of the number Finder for the three Great Britain lots on 21 August. of people who have either failed to repay their FAS Copies of these will be placed in the Library. overpayment or overpaid a FAS overpayment is not The contracts awarded for the delivery of the personal available in the format requested. To date 99 members independence payment (PIP) do not include any targets have died before repaying their FAS overpayment. to reduce the number of people who receive PIP or the The FAS scheme manager recovers the overpayment amount paid out through PIP. The only targets are over the life time of a member in the form of a notional based on the quality of assessments carried out. Assessment annuity, which is calculated taking into account actuarial providers will not be paid according to the outcome of mortality assumptions (and other actuarial assumptions). claimants’ assessments or decisions on benefit entitlement. If an individual member lives longer than predicted They will be paid for the production of fair and impartial they will pay back more. However, the effect of the assessments along with written and verbal medical advice, assumptions used is in general more members will pay investment in new technology and other service back less than they owe. This approach is in line with improvements with associated fixed overheads and the general action taken by an occupational pension administrative costs. scheme, who on completion of winding up identify that Remploy a member has been overpaid. If members request they may pay back the overpayment as a lump sum. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work In all cases the FAS scheme manager will consider and Pensions what recent discussions his Department representations to waive the recovery of a FASoverpayment. has had with Remploy on the closure of its Wrexham factory. [120229] Personal Independence Payment Esther McVey: DWP officials meet regularly with Remploy colleagues to discuss progress and any issues Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) which organisations bid for the contract The Department is aware of ongoing dialogue between to deliver personal independence payments; [119481] Welsh officials, the local authority and Remploy regarding the site and its possible use to support social enterprise. (2) how many representations he has received on the Remploy continue to lead those discussions, as owners awarding of the contract to deliver personal independence of the assets. payments to Atos; [119482] Social Security Benefits: Young People (3) what steps his Department is taking to put in place monitoring and assessment procedures to ensure Atos adheres to its contract to deliver personal independence Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people aged (a) 19, (b) 20 and (c) payments; [119483] 21 years were in receipt of (i) jobseeker’s allowance, (ii) (4) if he will place a copy of the contract agreed with housing benefit and (iii) jobseeker’s allowance and Atos for the delivery of personal independence housing benefit in the latest period for which figures payments in the Library; [119484] are available. [118912] 239W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 240W

Mr Hoban: The number of people aged (a) 19, (b) The Department does collect information on those in 20 and (c) 21 years old who were in receipt of jobseeker’s receipt of JSA on the housing benefit data source allowance (JSA) at February 2012 is shown in the (SHBE) but to assess the completeness of recording following table. and quality assure the figures would incur disproportionate Number of JSA claimants by age: February 2012 cost. Age JSA claimants Information is not readily available for housing benefit Total 1,589,640 recipients by age at parliamentary constituency level, 19 79,850 and to provide it would incur disproportionate cost. A 20 80,250 one-off exercise was carried out on the January 2011 21 73,070 data to provide a parliamentary constituency breakdown. Notes: The results were published on the Department’s website 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. at: 2. The latest available data is at February 2012. 3. Figures include “credit” only cases. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/hb_ctb_ parlc_jan11.xls Source: DWP Information, Governance and Security, Work and Pensions There are no plans to repeat the exercise which took Longitudinal Study. around 20-working days to complete. Number of JSA claimants for Bexleyheath and Crayford The number of people aged (a) 19, (b) 20 and (c) parliamentary constituency, the London borough of Bexley and 21 years old who were in receipt of housing benefit London region by Age: February 2012 (HB) and HB with income-based JSA at May 2012 is shown in the following table. London borough of JSA claimants London region Bexley Number of HB claimants, including those who are in receipt of income-based JSA: May 2012 HB claimants with Total 234,100 4,800 Age HB claimants income-based JSA Age: Total 5,031,740 664,090 19 33,240 10,780 19 7,950 250 20 46,120 14,610 21 56,740 15,880 20 8,880 240 Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 21 8,620 210 2. Age groups are based on the age on the count data (second Thursday in the month), of either: (a) the recipient if they are single, or Notes: (b) the elder of the recipient or partner if claiming as a couple. 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 3. Recipients are as at the second Thursday of the month. 2. The latest available data is at February 2012. 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct 3. Figures include “credit” only cases. from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate Source: clerical returns. The data is available monthly from November 2008 DWP Information, Governance and Security, Work and Pensions and May 2012 is the most recent available. Longitudinal Study. Source: Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) Number of housing benefit claimants including those who are in receipt of income-based JSA for the London borough of Bexley and London The number of claimants of HB and Contributory-Based region by Age: May 2012 JSA is not readily available and could be provided only HB claimants HB claimants with JSA at disproportionate cost. (income-based) London London London borough of London borough of Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Work region Bexley region Bexley and Pensions how many people aged (a) 19, (b) 20 and Total 845,740 14,780 109,870 1,710 (c) 21 years old were in receipt of (i) jobseeker’s allowance, Age: (ii) housing benefit and (iii) both jobseeker’s allowance 19 3,850 80 1,010 20 and housing benefit in (A) Bexleyheath and Crayford 20 5,210 150 1,490 30 constituency, (B) the London borough of Bexley and (C) Greater London in the latest period for which 21 6,530 180 1,780 30 Notes: [119634] figures are available. 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Age groups are based on the age on the count date (second Thursday in the month), of either: Mr Hoban: The number of recipients who claim (a) the recipient if they are single, or (a) the recipient if they are single, or housing benefit (HB) and jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) is 3. Recipients are as at the second Thursday of the month. not available. 4. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct from local authority computer systems. Information is available for those HB claimants whose It replaces quarterly aggregate clerical returns. The data is available claim is passported: that is for those who receive either monthly from November 2008 and May 2012 is the most recent income support, jobseeker’s allowance (income-based), available. employment and support allowance (income-based), or Source: pension credit (guaranteed credit). Single housing benefit extract (SHBE) 241W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 242W

Universal Credit Drugs: Sentencing

Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Work and Pensions if he will estimate the number of what the highest number of drug rehabilitation orders is working families in Plymouth whose net benefit income under community sentences or suspended sentence orders will decrease upon the introduction of universal credit. that have been given to an offender over the period of [120822] their offending history in each of the last three years. [119683] Mr Hoban: The information requested is not available at this level. Jeremy Wright: From 1 January 2008 to 31 December Once fully implemented it is expected that overall 2010 the highest number of drug rehabilitation requirements individuals will benefit from universal credit by the under community sentences or suspended sentence orders equivalent benefit expenditure rise of around £2 billion. that were given to an offender is estimated to be eight. The impact assessment states that in Great Britain In any one of these single years the highest number of around 2.8 million households will have higher entitlements drug rehabilitation requirements given to an offender is under universal credit. estimated to be six. It has not been possible to look at Around 2 million households will have lower entitlements drug rehabilitation requirements over the course of the under universal credit. offending history without incurring significant costs. However it is important to recognise that a package The numbers in the paragraph above represent the of transitional protection is being developed in order to maximum number of drug rehabilitation requirements ensure that there will be no cash losers as a direct result given to an offender in either a single year, or over the of the move to universal credit where circumstances course of three years. These figures are significantly remain the same. higher than for any typical offender—the average number of drug rehabilitation requirements given to offenders under community sentences or suspended sentence orders over the three year period, and within each single year, WOMEN AND EQUALITIES is one. Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Additionally, it is possible that these figures may slightly overestimate the number of distinct requirements Mrs Moon: To ask the Minister for Women and given because of recording arrangements. For example, Equalities pursuant to the answer of 11 July 2012, when dealing with a breach, the court can either amend Official Report, column 282W,on Protection of Freedoms the existing order to make it more onerous, or revoke Act 2012, what progress she has made in introducing an the order and re-sentence the offender for the original application process for people seeking to clear their offence. In the first case the existing order continues and criminal records of a conviction for consensual homosexual in the second case the original sentence is replaced with sex; and if she will make a statement. [119173] a new sentence. Such outcomes could be recorded in such a way to suggest that a new drug rehabilitation James Brokenshire: I have been asked to reply on requirement had been imposed but this would be incorrect. behalf of the Home Department. It has not been possible to investigate if this has been The Home Office work to develop an application the case without incurring disproportionate costs. process to enable individuals to apply to have any This information has been derived from records of convictions, cautions, warnings or reprimands that meet probation commencements that in turn have been drawn the criteria as set out in part 5 of the protection of from administrative IT systems which, as with any large Freedoms Act 2012 disregarded is well advanced. scale recording system, are subject to possible errors We are committed to implementing the application with data entry and processing. handling arrangements from 1 October, when the new provisions will be commenced. The arrangements have been developed in partnership with HM Courts and TRANSPORT Tribunals Service, the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Ministry of Defence. Driving Offences: Insurance

Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what recent steps he has taken to tackle JUSTICE uninsured vehicles. [119284] Anti-slavery Day Stephen Hammond: The information requested is as Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for follows: Justice what plans his Department has to mark Anti-Slavery (a) The number of uninsured vehicles in Great Britain has fallen to 1.2 million from 1.4 million in 2010 due to a combination Day on 18 October 2012. [120401] of police enforcement activity (better detection through automatic number plate recognition equipment and seizure of uninsured Mrs Grant: I refer to the reply I gave to the hon. vehicles) as well as the continuous insurance enforcement scheme. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) on 11 September (b) Since June 2011, action has been taken against those who 2012, Official Report, column 183W. The Government keep a vehicle without insurance, known as the continuous insurance is committed to marking Anti-Slavery Day. Plans are enforcement scheme. At 31 August 2012, 177,086 fixed penalty still being considered and will be announced in due notices had been issued to registered keepers and 834 cases course. successfully prosecuted. 243W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 244W

We are also working with the insurance industry to Fatality Serious injury allow it access to DVLA driver details on penalty points and disqualifications to help tackle fraud. The Government 2007 0 0 is concerned that the rising cost of insurance may tempt 2008 0 2 motorists to drive without insurance and is working 2009 0 0 closely with the insurance industry on measures which 2010 2 4 will help reduce premiums. An industry summit was 2011 0 1 held on 2 May on the cost of insurance and follow-up work is in progress. For slight injuries, the data currently available include all contractor injuries (i.e. not just those involving vehicles):

Electric Vehicles Slight injury

2007 29 Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will review the law on the use of 2008 54 Segway Personal Transporters and other personal 2009 75 2010 47 electric vehicles in public areas. [120454] 2011 46

Stephen Hammond: We have no plans, at present, to The data above are supplied by the contractors working review the requirements relating to Segway Personal for the Highways Agency. Transporters and other personal electric vehicles (EPVs) for use on the highway. EPVs are mechanically propelled Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for vehicles and as such must be approved, registered, taxed Transport whether he has assessed the potential cost and insured before they can be used on the road. In and safety benefits of the use of a traffic cone and addition the rider would need the appropriate driving laying system such as Conemaster on motorways in the licence. UK. [120378] A review and public consultation was undertaken by DFT in early 2010 and the results published in November Stephen Hammond: In response to a request from the that year. A copy is available at the following weblink: previous Minister for Roads, my hon. Friend the Member http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/tna/ for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), a detailed 20110203024612/http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/closed/ independent review of the costs and benefits of using 2010-01/ Conemaster was carried out by the Highways Agency during late 2011/early 2012. A report has been provided to all interested parties. A copy will be placed in the High Speed 2 Railway Line Libraries of the House. The Conemaster system is a semi-automatic cone Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for placement and retrieval system produced by Jordan Transport what the total cost to the public purse of the Products Ltd. The purposes of Conemaster are to High Speed 2 project has been to date. [120519] speed up the placement and removal of traffic cones and to reduce the risk of injury and death to roadworkers Mr Simon Burns: The total cost of the High Speed 2 by reducing the need for them to set foot on live project to date, rounded to the nearest whole number is carriageways during temporary lane closures. set out in the following table: The independent report concluded that the estimated benefits of Conemaster vary from a benefits to costs Financial year Total expenditure (£ million) ratio (BCR) of 0.29 (pessimistic) to 2.06 (central) and 2.69 (optimistic). This information has been provided 2009-10 9 to all contractors in the supply chain of the Highways 2010-11 24 Agency. 2011-12 56 2012-13 165 The success or otherwise of the Jordan Products Ltd 1 This figure includes spend up until the end of August 2012, as this is machine depends on the business model applied and the the most up-to-date information available. safety benefits achievable from its use, as assessed by the competent people within the service providers who manage the HA network on behalf of the Secretary of Motorways: Repairs and Maintenance State. It has always been made clear to Jordan Products Ltd that the Highways Agency cannot get directly involved Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for in supporting the development of Conemaster or mandate Transport how many people repairing motorways have the use of the Conemaster on the agency’s network. been killed or injured by vehicles in each of the last five years. [120374] Railways: Franchises

Stephen Hammond: The following table sets out the Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for fatal and serious injuries from vehicle related incidents Transport if he will make it his policy to end the rail which have been recorded on the motorway and trunk network franchising system and return to a single body road network in England which is the responsibility of responsible for rail services and track maintenance. the Secretary of State for Transport. [120612] 245W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 246W

Mr Simon Burns: The Government’s vision for the There are already ways of giving cyclists priority over future of the railways is set out in the Rail Command other traffic and improving their safety at junctions, for Paper that was published on 8 March 2012. This does example by introducing Advanced Stop Lines, cycle not involve the ending of the current franchising system. bypasses and providing segregated traffic signals for cyclists if required. Roads: Barnsley

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Transport how many motorists were (a) killed and (b) seriously injured in sleep-related road traffic accidents Council Tax in Barnsley Central since May 2010. [120588] Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Hammond: The number of persons killed or Communities and Local Government if he will estimate seriously injured in reported personal injury road accidents the yield for each local authority area should each local where “Fatigue” was a contributory factor since May authority end its council tax exemptions for empty 2010 in the Yorkshire and the Humber region are as properties and void lettings in the next financial year. follows: [118710] May 2010 to December 2010: five killed and 13 seriously injured; and Brandon Lewis: The information requested has been placed in the Library of the House. January 2011 to December 2011: five killed and 25 seriously injured. These figures relate to the council tax exemptions for The figures include all road user casualties including vacant and unoccupied dwellings and the discount available pedestrians, pedal cyclists, motorcyclists and all other for second homes. road users. The Government’s reforms could allow councils to make up to a £20 reduction in the bill for a typical Band Data for 2012 will be available in June 2013. This D property in England, or hold bills down by the same data is not broken down below regional level since the amount. number of accidents is small and therefore it may be possible to identify the individuals involved in an accident. Council Tax Benefits

Roads: Repairs and Maintenance Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what information Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department holds about (a) the claimant caseload Transport if he will discuss with the Highways Agency in Brighton and Hove for the receipt of council tax ensuring that its contractors use a traffic cone and benefit over the period from 2009-10 to 2011-12 and laying system such as Conemaster. [120379] (b) the forecast council tax benefit claimant caseload in Brighton and Hove expected in 2012-13 and 2013-14; if Stephen Hammond: The Highways Agency has carried he will make it his policy to take account of local out an independent review of the costs and benefits of authority forecasts of future claimant caseload in the using Conemaster, following discussions between the calculation of the council tax support grant; and if he previous Minister for Roads, my hon. Friend the Member will make a statement. [118702] for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), the inventor of the machine (Mr Alan Jordan) and his constituency Brandon Lewis: The council tax benefit caseload for MP, the hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr McCrea). Brighton and Hove at May 2012 was 28,540. This The results show that the benefits-to-costs ratio at mid information is published by the Department for Work range is 2.06. This information has been provided to all and Pensions at the following link: parties and communicated to the agency’s contractors http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/hbctb_release_ in its supply chain. It has been made clear to Mr Jordan aug12.xls in various meetings and in correspondence that it is for Receipt of council tax benefit in every month between the companies in the agency’s supply chain to consider November 2008 and May 2012 can be found in table 10. the benefits of using such a product and not something Forecast council tax benefit caseload is not available that the agency can mandate. This matter has been fully for individual local authorities. explored and I do not consider that there is a need for Forecasts of the future number of council tax benefit any further ministerial discussions. A copy of the report recipients at a Great Britain level and by country is has been placed in the Libraries of the House. published by the Department for Work and Pensions at the following link: Traffic Lights: Bicycles http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/budget_2012_300712.xls Line 81 gives the Great Britain caseload, and lines 103 Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for to 105 give the total caseload by country. Transport if he will take steps to make it easier for local authorities to introduce bike traffic lights at junctions. For the purposes of determining the grant distribution, [120595] we will use local authorities’ share of 2011-12 subsidised council tax benefit expenditure. Norman Baker: We are currently taking forward plans As the Government has made clear in the ‘Localising to revise the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Council Tax Support—Funding Allocation Consultation: Directions. New measures such as cycle traffic lights http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ will be considered as part of the revision. localgovernment/2146644?view=Standard 247W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 248W published in May 2012, the overall allocation for council stations in England operate a co-response with the tax support will be based on the Office for Budget Ambulance Service; [118618] Responsibility forecast of council tax benefit expenditure (2) how many fire stations in England operate a for Great Britain in 2013-14. The final figures are due to co-responder scheme with an ambulance service. be published in the autumn and will take account of [119126] claimant numbers adjusted in relation to identified trends in claimant numbers and level of council tax. Brandon Lewis: The Department does not collect From April 2013, our reforms will localise council tax information on the number of fire stations in England support and give councils stronger incentives to support that co-respond with the ambulance service. local firms, cut fraud, promote local enterprise and get Housing: Construction people back into work. Spending on council tax benefit doubled under the last Administration and welfare reform is vital to tackle the budget deficit we have inherited. Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps he is taking to protect greenfield sites from inappropriate Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for housing development in areas where authorities are still Communities and Local Government what assessment developing their local plan. [120442] he has made of the potential effect of the new council (a) tax support system on council tax arrears (i) nationally Nick Boles: The National Planning Policy Framework, (b) and (ii) by local authority and the resources needed published in March 2012, does not support unsustainable by local authorities for arrears collection; whether his development regardless of whether or not an up-to-date Department intends to provide local authorities with plan is in place. The framework clearly sets out that resources to (A) assess whether any people who cease to applications should not be approved if the adverse receive full council tax benefit and who subsequently impacts would significantly and demonstrably outweigh fall into arrears are facing hardship and (B) help people the benefits; or if specific policies in the framework in arrears design and maintain a viable repayment plan; indicate that development should be restricted. and if he will make a statement. [118703] Furthermore, the framework encourages the effective Brandon Lewis: The Government is committed to use of land by reusing land that has been previously ensuring that all net new burdens on local government developed (brownfield land), provided that it is not of are fully funded and does not intend the administration high environmental value. of local schemes to put pressure on local government Housing: Milton Keynes finances. My Department has already provided £30 million to local authorities as an initial payment. The Government Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for is therefore working with local authorities to assess the Communities and Local Government how many new net impact of localisation of support for council tax, homes were built in Milton Keynes in each of the last including the transitional costs of moving to the new 16 quarters. [120120] arrangements, in accordance with the new burdens doctrine. Mr Prisk: Figures for new house building completions in Milton Keynes in each of the last 16 quarters are Fire Stations: Ambulance Services shown in the following table. The source for these figures is the Government’s National Statistics on House Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Building, which are themselves derived from building Communities and Local Government (1) how many fire control data.

Quarterly figures for house building completions in Milton Keynes Financial year Quarter Private enterprise Housing associations Local authorities All dwellings

2008-09 Q2 375 228 0 603 2008-09 Q3 269 90 0 359 2008-09 Q4 154 156 0 310

2009-10 Q1 191 135 0 326 2009-10 Q2 377 190 0 567 2009-10 Q3 328 115 0 443 2009-10 Q4 202 70 0 272

2010-11 Q1 221 73 0 294 2010-11 Q2 218 30 0 248 2010-11 Q3 320 106 0 426 2010-11 Q4 171 97 0 268

2011-12 Q1 174 77 0 251 2011-12 Q2 139 52 0 191 2011-12 Q3 274 160 0 434 249W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 250W

Quarterly figures for house building completions in Milton Keynes Financial year Quarter Private enterprise Housing associations Local authorities All dwellings

2011-12 Q4 318 190 0 508

2012-13 Q1 269 85 0 354

Planning Obligations CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Public Libraries Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether his Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Department has estimated the level of reserves that Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how many officials in have arisen from Section 106 monies that have been raised her Department have been employed in dealing with but have not yet been spent (a) for each local authority issues relating to library closures since May 2010; and (b) nationally in each of the last three years. [120471] [119474] (2) how much her Department has spent on library Nick Boles: My Department has not estimated the closures since May 2010. [120473] level of reserves that have arisen from Section 106 monies that have been raised but have not yet been Hugh Robertson [holding answer 11 September 2012]: spent. The Department operates a flexible working model and allocates staff to current priorities. Therefore staffing levels have fluctuated since May 2010, but on average the libraries team has comprised 2.8 full-time equivalent SCOTLAND officials (one at Grade A and 1.8 at Grade B) working on issues related to library closures alongside wider Post Offices: DVLA Tender library related policy work. 13. Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for The only costs to date have been the proportion of Scotland what discussions he has had with the Secretary staff salaries that relate to time spent on library closure of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on the work. As officials are not asked to log the proportion of potential effect on post offices in Scotland of the decision their time spent on issues relating to library closures we on the DVLA tender. [119860] are unable to provide an accurate estimate of cost, but details of staff pay bands are available on the Department’s David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland, transparency web site at: the right hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and http://www.transparency.culture.gov.uk/category/staff/ Selkirk (Michael Moore), and I regularly discuss issues regarding post office services with ministerial colleagues, Third Sector including the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, (Vince Cable). Olympics, Media and Sport what steps her Department The DVLA is presently procuring a range of services, has taken to put into practice the recommendations of including those currently provided by Post Office Ltd. the National Audit Office’s review of Central Government’s It would not be appropriate for me to comment further implementation of the National Compact published in on a live commercial procurement. January 2012. [120007] Unemployment Hugh Robertson [holding answer 7 September 2012]: As recommended in the National Audit Office’s review 15. Mary Macleod: To ask the Secretary of State for of the Government’s implementation of the National Scotland what assessment his Department has made of Compact, the Department continues to revise its practices the latest unemployment figures for Scotland. [119862] and procedures to strengthen and better align them with the requirements of the compact. A commitment David Mundell: The latest claimant count figures for to comply with the compact is included in the departmental Scotland published this morning by the Office for National business plan. Statistics show a fall of 600 for the month of August. Claimant count level in Scotland is 2,800 lower compared to one year ago. Any fall in unemployment during these challenging economic times must be welcome news. ATTORNEY-GENERAL Coastguard Stations Stalking

Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Llwyd: To ask the Attorney-General what steps Scotland what recent discussions he has had on the he is taking to train the Crown Prosecution Service in closure of Scottish coastguard stations. [119849] the interpretation of the new laws on stalking. [120361]

David Mundell: I have regular discussions with ministerial The Attorney-General: The Crown Prosecution Service colleagues in the Department for Transport on the (CPS) will be updating its Legal Guidance on Stalking Coastguard modernisation programme. and Harassment to reflect the new stalking offences 251W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 252W prior to commencement of the stalking offences on Norman Lamb: It is for the NHS Commissioning 25 November 2012. A compulsory e-learning module Board to decide on the content of the Commissioning for roll out in 2012-13 is also being developed to further Outcomes Framework. The NHS Commissioning Board support prosecutors in prosecuting all forms of stalking. Authority is currently undertaking discussions with national stakeholder organisations, including third sector Mr Llwyd: To ask the Attorney-General how it will organisations, to discuss the shape of the Commissioning be determined, when an individual is arrested for stalking, Outcomes Framework for 2013-14 and beyond. whether there is sufficient evidence to charge them and Funding for the development of potential measures whether they will face prosecution under section 4A or for the Commissioning Outcomes Framework is subsumed 4B of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. within the Health and Social Care Information Centre’s [120362] baseline.

The Attorney-General: The Protection from Harassment Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Act 1997 does not contain a section 4B. Prosecutors will for Health (1) with reference to the answer of 26 June have to determine whether to charge under section 4 2012, Official Report, column 224W, on cancer, for (harassment) or section 4A (stalking), when the changes what reasons cancer survival rate indicators were not to the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 come into recommended for inclusion in the Commissioning force. The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) is preparing Outcomes Framework 2013-14; [120370] guidance for its prosecutors on determining the correct charge which will build on its current guidance on (2) with reference to the answer of 26 June 2012, stalking and harassment cases. As is currently the case Official Report, column 224W, on cancer, what progress with allegations of stalking, each case will be considered has been made in developing a composite indicator on its individual facts and merits and in accordance showing one-year survival rates for all cancers; [120371] with the Full Code Test outlined in the Code for Crown (3) what assessment he has made of the role of Prosecutors (the Code). clinical commissioning groups in achieving the Government’s aim of saving additional lives from cancer. [120372]

HEALTH Norman Lamb: The National Health Service Commissioning Board (NHS CB) will be responsible Ambulance Services: Crimes of Violence for decisions on the commissioning outcomes framework, which the board will use to measure the quality of care commissioned by clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for and the associated health outcomes. The recommendations Health how many paramedics in each region were developed by the National Institute for Health and injured as a result of assault while on duty in the last Clinical Excellence (NICE) are intended to support the year. [120246] NHS CB in designing the framework. Dr Poulter: I refer the hon. Member to the answer We understand that NICE was unable to include any given to the hon. Member for Hackney North and cancer survival rate measures in its recommendations Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) on 7 September 2012, because it had not at that stage been possible to develop Official Report, column 551W. an appropriate methodology. The information is not available and could be obtained The Information Centre is working with the London only at disproportionate cost. School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and the Office of National Statistics (ONS) to develop a Information held on the number of physical assaults methodology for composite one-year survival rate indicators against staff reported by national health service bodies for all cancers for potential inclusion in the NHS outcomes in England does not indicate the professional category framework and commissioning outcomes framework of staff or whether staff were on duty when assaults (COF). These are complex measures that require linkage took place. of ONS population statistics with cancer registry data and attribution to clinical commissioning groups, as Cancer well as testing the robustness of the measures. It is likely to take some months to complete this work. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The NHS CB will decide on the content of the COF (1) what funds his Department has allocated to the and is expected to publish the list of measures for work led by the Health and Social Care Information 2013-14 in the autumn. If not included in the 2013-14 Centre on the development of one and five year cancer framework, the board may choose a separate publication survival rate indicators for inclusion in the Commissioning route for the data that does exist, to ensure the information Outcomes Framework; [120106] is available transparently to the public. (2) when he plans to publish a public consultation on Public health and the national health service will the Commissioning Outcomes Framework indicators; both have a role to play in delivering the improvements [120107] to survival rates. Within the NHS, some services will be (3) whether third sector organisations will be able to commissioned by the NHS CB (primary care and specialised engage with the Health and Social Care Information services).and some by clinical commissioning groups Centre on the development of one and five year cancer for their populations. The role of clinical commissioning survival rate indicators for inclusion in the Commissioning groups (CCGs) will therefore be to ensure the Outcomes Framework. [120109] commissioning of appropriate services to deliver against 253W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 254W the areas for which they will be responsible. These will map the demand for and supply of appropriate dementia include, for example, commissioning of surgery for services, and to create local trajectories for increased cancers that are not covered by the specialised diagnosis. commissioning arrangements and commissioning of Improving health and care support for people with follow-up care for most cancers. CCGs are also responsible dementia is one of the key strands of the Prime Minister’s for supporting the board in improving the quality of challenge and, as part of the challenge, we have developed primary medical care. It is not possible to separate out the Dementia Care and Support Compact. what proportion of the 5,000 lives are the responsibility The purpose of the Compact with major care providers of the different organisations, but they are all responsible is to improve care and support for people with dementia for working together to deliver the improvements. living at home and in care homes. Through this vehicle, We are providing a range of support for CCGs to the care sector is committing to leading initiatives to help us deliver on our ambition to save 5,000 additional improve the quality of care for people with dementia. lives. The provision of high quality information is key The Compact focuses on quality of life for people with to driving service improvement and we have developed dementia and the delivery of relationship-based care commissioner profiles that will allow CCGs to benchmark and support. Currently over 190 organisations, including their cancer performance with other CCGs. NICE is the leading providers of care and support, have signed developing a range of quality standards for cancer care up to the Compact. which will be an important resource for CCGs in helping From April 2012, £54 million will be available through them to commission high quality services to drive up the Dementia CQUIN (Commissioning for Quality and quality and outcomes. Innovation) payment framework to hospitals offering dementia risk assessments to all over-75s admitted to Dementia their care. From April 2013, this will be extended to the quality of dementia care delivered. Also from April Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013 access to all CQUIN rewards will be dependent on Health if he will assess the implications for his policies delivering support for carers in line with the National of the findings of the University of Manchester’s Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence/Social Care recent study into the quality of care provided to people Institute for Excellence guidelines. with dementia. [120102] We are working with the Royal Colleges to respond to the challenge of dementia by bringing forward plans Norman Lamb: The report highlights the need for to ensure that all their members are capable and competent people with dementia to receive regular reviews of their in dementia care. care. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Government recognises the need to improve the what plans his Department has to improve awareness of care and support people with dementia and their carers dementia among (a) NHS staff, (b) local GPs and (c) receive, which is why we launched the Prime Minister’s the public. [120538] challenge on dementia on 26 March. Driving improvements in health and care is a key strand of the challenge and Norman Lamb: The Prime Minister’s Challenge on we want to see all people with dementia receive a Dementia, published in March 2012, calls on the Royal written integrated care plan. Colleges to respond to the challenge of dementia by bringing forward plans to ensure that their members are Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for capable and competent in dementia care. Objective 13 Health what steps he is taking to improve the (a) of the National Dementia Strategy also concerns an diagnosis of dementia and (b) treatment for people informed and effective work force for people with dementia. with dementia. [120537] The Department has established a Workforce Advisory Group, chaired by Professor Alistair Burns, National Norman Lamb: Dementia diagnosis rates have increased Clinical Director for Dementia, to support the delivery in England in the last year, but we recognise that there is of objective 13 across health and social care. more to do which is why improving diagnosis rates is a The Department will launch a national Dementia key part of the National Dementia Strategy and the awareness campaign starting 21 September and running Prime Minister’s Challenge on Dementia. until January 2013. It will consist of television, press, Through the Prime Minister’s Challenge we will ensure magazine and digital advertising supported by public that general practitioners and other health professionals relations and social media. The campaign aims to increase make patients aged 65 and over aware of memory early diagnosis of dementia by raising awareness of the clinics and refer those in need of assessment. signs and symptoms, and encouraging people to discuss We will work to ensure that there are adequate memory any concerns they have with their general practitioner. services across the country and we are working with the Haemophilia Royal College of Psychiatrists to drive up the proportion of memory services which are accredited. Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for From April 2013, there will be a quantified ambition Health what steps he is taking to ensure that people for diagnosis rates across the country, underpinned by with haemophilia who contracted hepatitis C through robust and affordable plans. contaminated blood transfusions are being treated We are developing a new tool which will help clinical with the most up-to-date hepatitis C treatment commissioning groups calculate the prevalence of dementia recommended by the National Institute for Health and within their local area. The tool will also help them to Clinical Excellence. [120169] 255W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 256W

Anna Soubry: Primary care trusts are legally required The ban on age discrimination in the provision of to make funding available to enable clinicians to prescribe services will be applied from 1 October 2012. Guidance treatments recommended by the National Institute of on the ban on age discrimination has been available to Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) guidance. This the NHS since May 2010 and there have been a number must occur within three months of publication of the of subsequent communications to the NHS to update technology appraisal. The Government has committed on progress towards the ban, which have included a link to ensuring that NHS commissioners will continue to to this guidance. The most recent of these communications be required to make funding available for drugs and was in June 2012 as follows: treatments recommended by NICE technology appraisals. www.dh.gov.uk/health/2012/06/the-week-issue-252/ This includes recommendations on hepatitis C treatments, The Equality Act 2010 public sector Equality Duty the most recent of which were published in April 2012. supports the NHS Constitution core principle that NHS Decisions on the prescribing of drugs for the treatment services should be available to all, and that patients and of individuals patients are made by clinicians. the public have the right not to be discriminated against. Health The Equality Duty will help ensure that NHS services, including breast cancer services, consider the needs of Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health all individuals. what his policy is on the responsibility deal; and Measuring reductions in inequalities in breast cancer whether he plans to propose changes to any aspect of services following the implementation of the Health the responsibility deal. [120409] and Social Care Act 2012 will be a matter for the NHS Commissioning Board. Anna Soubry: Through the public health responsibility Specifically on breast cancer, Statement 6 of the seal over 415 public health, voluntary, public sector and National Institute for Health .and Clinical Excellence commercial organisations have signed up to play their Quality Standard on Breast Cancer states: part in improving the public’s health by helping people “People with early invasive breast cancer, irrespective of age, to adopt a healthier diet, foster a culture of responsible are offered surgery, radiotherapy and appropriate systemic therapy, drinking, increasing physical activity levels and improving unless significant comorbidity precludes it”. the health of their staff. The responsibility deal will In addition, in partnership with Macmillan Cancer continue to play an important part in delivering these Support we are funding the ‘Improving Cancer Treatment, ambitions. Assessment and Support for Older People Project’ to Health Services test and evaluate new methods of clinical assessment of people with a diagnosis of cancer; co-ordinate and Jim Dobbin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health deliver short-term practical support packages for older (1) when the proposed ban on age discrimination in the people undergoing treatment for cancer; and promote provision of services will be applied within the NHS; age equality to address age discriminatory behaviour in [120112] cancer services. (2) what effect the implementation of the Equality Hospitals: Crimes of Violence Act 2010 will have on age inequalities in breast cancer services; [120113] Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (3) what steps his Department is taking to ensure how many assaults took place in NHS hospitals in each that commissioners are fully aware of the requirements of the last five years. [120572] of the Equality Act 2010; and if he will make a statement; [120114] Dr Poulter: I refer the hon. Member to the answer (4) what guidance his Department plans to issue on given to her by the Under-Secretary of State for Health, implementation of the Equality Act 2010 in respect of my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), (a) health and social care and (b) breast cancer services; on 7 September 2012, Official Report, column 551W. [120115] The numbers of reported physical assaults against (5) what effect the implementation of the public staff in the national health service in England have been sector duty in the NHS will have on breast cancer collected annually since 2004-05. services; [120116] Information on the numbers of assaults other than (6) how progress in delivering reductions in those against staff is not available. inequalities in breast cancer services will be measured following the implementation of the Health and Social Mental Health Services Care Act 2012. [120117] Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anna Soubry: Information and guidance about duties if he will make an assessment of the conclusions of the under the Equality Act 2010 have already been made Centre for Economic Performance report entitled How available to the national health service, including mental illness loses out in the NHS published in June commissioners, via the Equality Delivery System published 2012. [120594] in 2011 and publicised through the NHS Operating Framework for England and the Department’s regular Norman Lamb: The Department has assessed the bulletins for senior NHS managers. This is in addition Centre for Economic Performance’s report, “How mental to information and guidance published by the NHS Illness loses out in the NHS”, and agrees with the Commissioning Board Authority and the Government report’s conclusions on the importance of investment in Equalities Office and the Equality and Human Rights mental health services and on the necessity of treating Commission for all public authorities. mental ill health as seriously as physical ill health. 257W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 258W

Our mental health strategy “No Health Without Mental NHS: Negligence Health”, and the recently published implementation framework, makes our commitment to these principles Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health clear. how many cases brought against the NHS Litigation Ministerial Policy Advisers Authority were funded by (a) legal aid, (b) a conditional fee agreement and (c) another form of Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health funding in each of the last five years; and how many in what the duties are of special advisers working in his each category resulted in a compensation payment. Department. [120478] [120445]

Dr Poulter: As set out in the Constitutional Reform Dr Poulter: The NHS Litigation Authority (NHSLA) and Governance Act 2010, the role of special advisers is manages certain types of claims on behalf of NHS to assist a Minister of the Crown. Specifically in health defendants. It provided information on clinical negligence this will be to advise on health and social care policy or and non-clinical claims in the following tables. It should media and communications depending on the role to be noted that non-clinical claims are mainly employers’ which they are appointed. and public liabilities claims.

Table 1: Number of clinical negligence claims by type of funding and NHSLA notification year as at 31 August 2012 No. resulted in No. resulted in No. resulted in a a a Unsettled compensation Unsettled compensation Unsettled compensation NHSLA as at payment as at as at payment as at as at payment as at notification 31 August 31 August 31 August 31 August Other 31 August 31 August year Legal Aid 2012 2012 CFA 2012 2012 funding 2012 2012

2011-12 1,112 705 213 5,588 2,951 1,705 2,176 1,017 632 2010-11 1,392 493 543 4,714 976 2,633 2,405 445 1,108 2009-10 1,343 252 719 3,238 308 2,261 2,061 123 1,151 2008-09 1,537 199 866 2,465 80 1,770 2,089 45 1,031 2007-08 1,358 112 832 2,080 29 1,584 2,029 12 970

Table 2: Number of non-clinical claims by type of funding and NHSLA notification year as at 31 August 2012 No. resulted in No. resulted in No. resulted in a a a Unsettled compensation Unsettled compensation Unsettled compensation NHSLA as at payment as at as at payment as at as at payment as at notification 31 August 31 August 31 August 31 August Other 31 August 31 August year Legal Aid 2012 2012 CFA 2012 2012 funding 2012 2012

2011-12 24 6 9 4,279 2,402 1,088 252 96 60 2010-11 16 3 5 4,028 909 2,066 239 29 82 2009-10 18 0 7 3,583 340 2,269 384 19 179 2008-09 18 0 9 3,314 86 2,245 313 6 127 2007-08 22 0 11 3,014 27 2,044 278 0 114

Nurses: Schools programmes, on behalf of providers, to benefit from economies of scale and contract management expertise. SHAs will remain responsible for commissioning pre- Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for registration courses until April 2013 and will be responsible Health what steps he is taking to ensure that school for the safe transfer of training contracts to new local nurses transferring to health visiting are replaced. education and training boards from this date. [120222] Orthopaedics Dr Poulter: It is the responsibility of strategic health authorities (SHAs), in conjunction with their associated Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health deaneries, higher education institutes, primary care trusts how many patients are waiting for orthopaedic and national health service trusts to commission the operations; and what the comparable figures were in appropriate level of healthcare work force training posts each of the previous five years. [120224] to meet the needs of the local population including taking into account staff moving between work force Anna Soubry: The information is shown in the following groups. table: Referral to treatment (RTT) waiting times, England It is entirely appropriate that individual healthcare Number of trauma and orthopaedics RTT providers plan and develop their work force. However, a As at June each year patients waiting at the end of the month measure of cooperation and joint planning for the development of the work force is required in healthcare 2008 396,024 and this is currently supported by the SHAs. The SHAs 2009 365,473 are best placed to commission the education and training 2010 389,159 259W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 260W

Referral to treatment (RTT) waiting times, England James Brokenshire: Cats (along with dogs, non-human Number of trauma and orthopaedics RTT primates and horses) are given special protection under As at June each year patients waiting at the end of the month the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 and may 2011 383,336 only be used if no other species is suitable or it is not 2012 367,045 practicable to obtain animals of any other species that Note: are suitable for the purposes of the relevant programme The table shows the number of trauma and orthopaedic patients still of work. waiting to start treatment at the end of the month. Not all of these Of the 235 procedures using cats reported in the patients will be waiting for an orthopaedic operation. Statistics of Scientific Procedures on Living Animals, Source: Department of Health RTT waiting times statistics (Unify2 data Great Britain 2011, 227 were of mild severity and eight collection). of moderate severity. Details of the precise aims and Information has not been provided for June 2007 as nature of those procedures are not held centrally. Total the Department’s RTT waiting times data for patients procedures using cats rose by 26% in 2011, a rise of 48, waiting to start treatment has been published since mainly in studies relating to cat health and nutrition. August 2007. The annual return of procedures submitted by project licence holders provides the evidence base for the sources Out-patients: Attendance of cats set out in Table 2, on page 24 of the 2011 annual statistics. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what penalties he is considering imposing on Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of people who fail to attend hospital appointments. State for the Home Department if she will take steps to [120214] ensure that stray cats and dogs continue to be protected from being used in laboratory experiments; and if she Anna Soubry: Across the national health service, will make a statement. [120252] organisations should be seeking to understand and address how best to achieve reductions in missed James Brokenshire [holding answer 10 September 2012]: appointments in their areas. The introduction of new I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on 3 September technologies that allow patients to book and cancel 2012, Official Report, column 190W. appointments online, combined with improved telecommunication systems with the use of SMS texts, e-mail and appointment reminder systems, can all help to reduce missed appointments. We believe that encouraging Animal Experiments: Scotland patients to use the NHS sensibly and responsibly is the right approach, and have no plans for imposing financial Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home penalties on patients, which may also impact upon Department (1) how many regulated procedures were those most in need and least able to pay. carried out under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in Scotland in 2011; [119356] Thalidomide (2) how many (a) mice, (b) rats, (c) guinea pigs, (d) hamsters, (e) rabbits, (f) horses and other equids, (g) Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health sheep, (h) pigs, (i) birds, (j) amphibians, (k) reptiles, what assessment he has made of the effect of the (l) fish, (m) cats, (n) dogs, (o) new world primates and Government’s review of payments made to people affected (p) old world primates were used in regulated procedures by thalidomide on their levels of stress and mental state. conducted in Scotland under the Animals (Scientific [120376] Procedures) Act 1986 in 2011; [119357] Norman Lamb: The Government has not made and (3) how many animals were used in regulated assessment of the effect of its evaluation of the three-year procedures under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Thalidomide grant pilot scheme on the mental state and Act 1986 in Scotland in 2011; [119358] stress levels of its recipients. (4) what proportion of regulated procedures conducted in Scotland under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 were carried out for (a) fundamental and applied studies other than toxicity and (b) toxicity tests HOME DEPARTMENT or other safety and efficacy evaluation in 2011; [119359] Animal Experiments (5) what proportion of procedures regulated under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 and carried Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the out in Scotland were conducted without anaesthesia in Home Department with reference to her Department’s 2011; [119360] publication entitled Statistics of Scientific Procedures (6) how many regulated procedures conducted in on Living Animals, Great Britain 2011, published on 10 Scotland under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act July 2012, what the precise nature was of the procedures 1986 involved (a) mice, (b) rats, (c) guinea pigs, (d) in which cats were used; what the aims were of such hamsters, (e) rabbits, (f) horses and other equids, (g) procedures; what the reasons are for the increase in the sheep, (h) pigs, (i) birds, (j) amphibians, (k) reptiles, number of procedures involving cats between 2010 and (l) fish, (m) cats, (n) dogs, (o) new world primates and 2011; what the evidential basis is for the statistics on the (p) old world primates in 2011; and how many such sources of cats used in procedures set out in Table 2, on procedures involved (i) genetically-modified animals and page 24; and if she will make a statement. [119560] (ii) animals with a harmful genetic defect; [119366] 261W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 262W

(7) what proportion of regulated procedures conducted James Brokenshire: Four infringements of the Animals in Scotland under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 were reported at designated Act 1986 in 2011 were performed in (a) public health establishments in Scotland during 2011. No prosecutions laboratories, (b) universities and medical schools, (c) resulted. NHS hospitals, (d) Government Departments, (e) other public bodies, (f) non-profit-making organisations and Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home (g) commercial organisations; [119365] Department how many project licences were granted (8) how many (a) genetically-modified animals and under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in (b) animals with a harmful genetic defect were used in 2010; and how many such project licences were in force regulated procedures conducted in Scotland under the at the end of 2011 in respect of work to be carried out Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in 2011. in Scotland. [119362] [119367] James Brokenshire: During 2010 515 project licences James Brokenshire: The number of regulated procedures in total were granted under the Animals (Scientific started under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act Procedures) Act 1986 in the United Kingdom of which 1986 in Scotland in 2011 was 655,910. 100 were granted at designated establishments in Scotland. During 2011, in Scotland, 315,723 mice, 38,572 rats, A total of 467 project licences were in force on the 31 997 guinea pigs, 549 hamsters, 1,399 rabbits, 91 horses December 2011 at designated establishments in Scotland, and other equids, 4,563 sheep, 746 pigs, 15,859 birds, 88 of those were granted during 2011. 265 amphibians, no reptiles, 265,191 fish, no cats, 312 dogs, no new world primates and 58 old world primates Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home were used in regulated procedures started under the Department what proportion of project licences Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. granted under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act During 2011, in Scotland, the number of regulated 1986 in Scotland were in the (a) mild, (b) moderate, procedures started for non-toxicological purposes under (c) substantial and (d) unclassified severity banding at the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 was 594,014 the end of 2011. [119363] (90.6 per cent), and the number started for toxicological purposes was 61,896 (9.4%). James Brokenshire: During 2011, in Scotland, of the There were a total of 655,910 regulated procedures project licences granted under the Animals (Scientific started under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act Procedures) Act 1986 that were in force at 31 December 1986 in Scotland in 2011 of which 529,961 (81%) used 2011 37% were in a mild severity banding, 59% in no form of anaesthesia. moderate, 2% in substantial and 2% were in an unclassified severity banding. During 2011, in Scotland, there were 315,793 procedures using mice, 38,574 using rats, 1,005 using guinea pigs, Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home 549 using hamsters, 3,078 using rabbits, 2,038 using Department how many places in Scotland were designated horses and other equids, 6,295 using sheep, 767 using as a (a) supplying establishment, (b) breeding establishment pigs, 15,860 using birds, 1,672 using amphibians, none and (c) scientific procedure under the Animals (Scientific using reptiles, 265,226 using fish, none using cats, 452 Procedures) Act 1986 at the end of 2011. [119364] using dogs, none using new world primates and 244 using old world primates used in regulated procedures James Brokenshire: As at 31 December 2011 in Scotland started under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act there were 28 user, eight supplying and 14 breeding 1986. establishments designated under the Animals (Scientific During 2011, in Scotland, a total of 655,910 regulated Procedures) Act 1986. An establishment can be a user, procedures were started under the Animals (Scientific breeder and/or a supplier. Procedures) Act 1986, of which 215,530 involved genetically modified animals and 11,855 involved animals with a harmful genetic defect. Animal Experiments: Wales During 2011, in Scotland the total number of procedures started under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1986 was 655,910. Of these, 572,972 or 87% were carried Home Department (1) what proportion of regulated out at universities or medical schools, 19,322 or 3% at procedures conducted in Wales under the Animals (Scientific Government Departments, 29,802 or 5% at other public Procedures) Act 1986 were carried out for (a) fundamental bodies, 33,550 or 5% at commercial organisations, and and applied studies other than toxicity and (b) toxicity 264 or 0.04% at non-profit making organisations. None tests or other safety and efficacy evaluation in 2011; were started at public health laboratories or NHS hospitals. [120170] During 2011, in Scotland, a total of 647,569 animals (2) what proportion of procedures regulated under were used in regulated procedures started under the the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, which Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, of which were carried out in Wales, was conducted without 215,508 were genetically modified and 11,855 were animals anaesthesia in 2011; [120173] with a harmful genetic defect. (3) what proportion of regulated procedures conducted in Wales under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Act 1986 were performed in (a) public health laboratories, Department how many infringements of the Animals (b) universities and medical schools, (c) NHS hospitals, (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 were recorded in (d) Government departments, (e) other public bodies, Scotland in 2011; and how many such infringements (f) non-profit-making organisations and (g) commercial led to a prosecution. [119361] organisations in 2011; [120176] 263W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 264W

(4) how many regulated procedures conducted in During 2011, in Wales, 44,356 mice, 4,249 rats, 746 Wales under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act guinea pigs, no hamsters, two rabbits, no horses and 1986 involved (a) mice, (b) rats, (c) guinea pigs, (d) other equids, 279 sheep, no pigs, 254 birds, no reptiles, hamsters, (e) rabbits, (f) horses and other equids, (g) 3,400 fish, no cats, no dogs, no new world primates and sheep, (h) pigs, (i) birds, (j) amphibians, (k) reptiles, no old world primates were used in regulated procedures (l) fish, (m) cats, (n) dogs, (o) new world primates and started under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act (p) old world primates in 2011; and how many such 1986. In addition, a small number of amphibians were procedures involved (i) genetically-modified animals and used in 72 regulated procedures started under the Animals (ii) animals with a harmful genetic defect; [120177] (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 but data on the number (5) how many regulated procedures were carried out of animals used and reused is subject to further quality under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in assurance. Wales in 2011; [120178] (6) how many (a) genetically-modified animals and Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the (b) animals with a harmful genetic defect were used in Home Department how many project licences were regulated procedures conducted in Wales under the granted under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 in 2011; 1986 in 2010; and how many such project licences were [120179] in force at the end of 2011 in respect of work to be carried out in Wales. [120171] (7) how many (a) mice, (b) rats, (c) guinea pigs, (d) hamsters, (e) rabbits, (f) horses and equids, (g) sheep, (h) pigs, (i) birds, (j) amphibians, (k) reptiles, (l) fish, James Brokenshire: During 2010 515 project licences (m) cats, (n) dogs, (o) new world primates and (p) old in total were granted under the Animals (Scientific world primates were used in regulated procedures conducted Procedures) Act 1986 in the United Kingdom of which in Wales under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act eight were granted at designated establishments in Wales. 1986 in 2011; [120180] A total of 70 project licences were in force on 31 (8) how many individual animals were used in regulated December 2011 at designated establishments in Wales, procedures under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) 17 of those were granted during 2011. Act 1986 in Wales in 2011. [120181] Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the James Brokenshire: During 2011, in Wales, the number Home Department how many infringements of the of regulated procedures started for non-toxicological Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 were recorded purposes under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act in Wales in 2010; and how many such infringements led 1986 was 54,330 (100%), and none were started for to a prosecution. [120172] toxicological purposes. There were a total of 54,330 regulated procedures James Brokenshire: There was one recorded infringement started under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 at a 1986 in Wales in 2011 of which 44,322 (82%) used no designated establishment in Wales during 2010. It did form of anaesthesia. not result in a prosecution. During 2011, in Wales the total number of procedures started under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1986 was 54,330. Of these, 52,366 or 96% were carried Home Department what proportion of project licences out at universities or medical schools, 1,791 or 3% at granted under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act public health laboratories and 173 or less than 1% at 1986 in Wales was in the (a) mild, (b) moderate, (c) commercial organisations. None were started at NHS substantial and (d) unclassified severity banding at the hospitals, Government Departments, other public bodies end of 2011. [120174] or non-profit making organisations. During 2011, in Wales, there were 44,781 procedures using mice, 4,681 using rats, 746 using guinea pigs, none James Brokenshire: As at 31 December 2011, in Wales, using hamsters, two using rabbits, none using horses 53% of the project licences granted under the Animals and other equids, 314 using sheep, none using pigs, 293 (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 were in the mild severity using birds, 72 using amphibians, none using reptiles, banding, 46% in moderate and 1% in substantial or 3,400 using fish, none using cats, none using dogs, none unclassified. using new world primates and none using old world primates used in regulated procedures started under the Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. Home Department how many places in Wales were During 2011, in Wales, a total of 54,330 regulated designated as a (a) supplying, (b) breeding and (c) procedures were started under the Animals (Scientific scientific procedure establishment under the Animals Procedures) Act 1986, of which 28,937 involved genetically (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 at the end of 2011. modified animals and 821 involved animals with a [120175] harmful genetic defect. During 2011, in Wales, a total of 53,311 animals were James Brokenshire: As at 31 December 2011 in Wales used in regulated procedures started under the Animals there was one supplying, two breeding and seven user (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986, of which 28,841 were establishments designated under the Animals (Scientific genetically modified and 821 were animals with a harmful Procedures) Act 1986. An establishment can be a user, genetic defect. breeder and/or supplier. 265W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 266W

Automatic Number Plate Recognition http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research- statistics/research-statistics/immigration-asylum-research/ immigration-tabs-q2-2012/before-entry2-q2-2012-tabs Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many automatic number Table be.08: Passengers initially refused entry by nationality plate recognition cameras were in use in (a) England Of these: and (b) Wales in each of the last six years; and how refused at Geographical Country of Total juxtaposed many she expects to be in use in the next two years. region nationality refusals controls [120196] 2009 Americas Canada 747 112 James Brokenshire [holding answer 10 September 2012]: 2010 Americas Canada 618 109 Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras 2011 Americas Canada 558 110 are operated by a wide range of public authorities and private organisations, and the information requested is Information on ethnicity is not captured for any not held centrally. The number of ANPR cameras in person denied entry to the UK. use by police forces in England and Wales varies on a Immobilisation of Vehicles daily basis. Information supplied by the National Police Improvement Agency indicates that, during the week ending 5 September 2012, 5,670 cameras were being Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for the operated by police forces in England, 294 cameras were Home Department what progress she has made towards being operated by police forces in Wales and 48 cameras a ban on wheel clamping and towing on private land; were being operated by the British Transport Police and if she will make a statement. [120504] (which operates in England, Wales and Scotland). James Brokenshire: Section 54 of the Protection of The Government has not made any estimate on the Freedoms Act 2012, which gained Royal Assent on 1 number of ANPR cameras that are likely to be used in May 2012, contains provisions which will make it an the future. offence to clamp, tow, block in or otherwise immobilise Civil Disorder: Greater London a vehicle without lawful authority if the intention is to prevent the motorist from removing that vehicle. Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Commencement the Home Department what steps her Department has No. 2) Order 2012 contains the commencement details taken to identify the causes of the public disorder of for sections 54-56 and schedule 4 of the Act, which will August 2011 in London and to prevent any recurrence come into force on 1 October in England. of such disorder. [119058] This order can be found on the Parliamentary legislation website at: Damian Green: The riots were not about protests, http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/2075/made unemployment or cuts. They were about criminality. After 1 October, it will be a criminal offence to The Secretary of State for the Home Department, my clamp, tow, block in or otherwise immobilise a vehicle right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), without lawful authority. The maximum penalty for the took decisive action and commissioned Her Majesty’s new offence will be an unlimited fine on conviction in Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) to review the the Crown court; or a fine of up to the statutory police response. HMIC made four overarching maximum (currently £5,000) in the magistrates court. recommendations which are being taken forward by the Association of Chief Police Officers. Good progress is Internet: Harassment being made with a strengthened national capability put in place to support the successful policing of the London Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2012 Olympic games. Home Department (1) whether she plans to regulate This work is underpinned by the strategic policing providers of social media, where that medium is used requirement which sets out the Home Secretary’s view to stalk or harass victims; [120360] of the national threats that the police must address and (2) whether she plans to encourage providers of the appropriate national policing capabilities required social media to introduce a code of conduct on the to tackle those threats. These threats include public misuse of that medium if it is used to stalk or harass disorder. victims. [120363]

Immigration Controls Mr Jeremy Browne: The Government takes all forms of harassment very seriously. We are working with Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for the internet service providers and social media to identify Home Department how many people travelling from effective practice and improve the response to online Canada were denied entry at UK ports and airports in harassment and stalking. each of the last three years; and what the ethnicity was of each of those denied entry. [120608] Licensing Laws

Mr Harper: The Home Office only collects data for Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for the those refused entry to the UK at ports or airports based Home Department how many alcohol licences have on nationality not the country from which they travelled. been withdrawn due to the sale of alcohol to children Home Office statistics that show the number of Canadian in (a) Brigg and Goole constituency and (b) Yorkshire nationals refused entry to the UK can be found at: and the Humber since 2003. [120623] 267W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 268W

Mr Jeremy Browne: The Alcohol, Entertainment and shows the number of premises licences, club premises Late Night Refreshment Licensing Statistical Bulletin certificates and personal licences surrendered, lapsed, collects the number of licences revoked, but does not revoked, forfeited, suspended or withdrawn in the East indicate why they were revoked. Licences may be revoked Riding of Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire licensing following a review by the licensing authority for a authorities and the Yorkshire and Humber region, between number of reasons, including persistent selling of alcohol 1 April 2006 and 31 March 2010. to children. These figures can be seen within the following tables. Data for Brigg and Goole constituency are not collected They include all such authorisations for licensable activities centrally. The constituency falls within the combined under the Licensing Act 2003, including the sale of licensing authority area of East Riding of Yorkshire alcohol. and North Lincolnshire. The latest available information

Table 1: Premises Licences surrendered, lapsed, suspended by a court, closure notice, East Riding of Yorkshire, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Lapsed2 Suspended by a court3 Closure notice4

2006-07 5— 5— 5— 6— 2007-08 10 4 0 0 2008-09 42 8 0 0 2009-10 20 8 0 0 1 Where a Premises Licence is surrendered under Section 28 of the Licensing Act 2003. 2 Where a Premises Licence has lapsed due to the death, incapacity, insolvency etc. of the licence holder, as set out under Section 27 of the Licensing Act 2003. Excludes instances where a Premises Licence was in effect for a limited period, but the period has since expired (e.g. one-off events). 3 Where a Premises Licence is suspended by a court, under Section 147B(1) of the Licensing Act 2003 (as amended by the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006) forthe sale or supply of alcohol, following an offence of persistently selling to underage children. 4 Where a premises is prohibited from selling alcohol for 48 hours following a closure notice under S.169A. 5 Unknown (not provided in 2006-07). 6 Unknown (not collected in 2006-07). Table 2: Club Premises Certificates surrendered, lapsed, withdrawn, East Riding of Yorkshire, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Lapsed2 Withdrawn3

2006-072 4— 4— 4— 2007-08 1 0 0 2008-09 1 0 0 2009-10 1 0 0 1 Where a Club Premises Certificate is surrendered under Section 81(3) of the Licensing Act 2003. 2 Where a Club Premises Certificates has lapsed because it had effect for a limited period, but that period has since expired. 3 Where a Club Premises Certificate is withdrawn under Section 90 of the Licensing Act 2003. 4 Unknown (not provided in 2006-07).

Table 3: Personal Licences surrendered, revoked, forfeited, suspended by a court, East Riding of Yorkshire, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Revoked2 Forfeited3 Suspended by a court4

2006-07 5— 5— 5— 5— 2007-08 0 0 0 0 2008-09 0 0 0 0 2009-10 2 0 0 0 1 Where a Personal Licence is surrendered under Section 116 of the Licensing Act 2003. 2 Where a Personal Licence is revoked under Section 124 of the Licensing Act 2003. 3 Where a Premises Licence has been forfeited following a court order under Section 129 of the Licensing Act 2003 in the time period specified (and where that order has not been suspended, pending an appeal under Sections 129(4) or 130 of the Licensing Act 2003). 4 Where a Personal Licence is suspended following a court order under Section 129 of the Licensing Act 2003 in the time period specified (and where that order has not been suspended, pending an appeal under Sections 129(4) or 130 of the Licensing Act 2003). 5 Unknown (not provided in 2006-07).

Table 4: Premises Licences surrendered, lapsed, suspended by a court, closure notice, North Lincolnshire, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Lapsed2 Suspended by a court3 Closure notice4

2006-07 5— 5— 5— 6— 2007-08 2 2 0 0 2008-09 13 0 0 0 2009-10 7 2 0 0 1 Where a Premises Licence is surrendered under Section 28 of the Licensing Act 2003. 2 Where a Premises Licence has lapsed due to the death, incapacity, insolvency etc. of the licence holder, as set out under Section 27 of the Licensing Act 2003. Excludes instances where a Premises Licence was in effect for a limited period, but the period has since expired (e.g. one-off events). 3 Where a Premises Licence is suspended by a court, under Section 147B(1) of the Licensing Act 2003 (as amended by the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006) forthe sale or supply of alcohol, following an offence of persistently selling to underage children. 4 Where a premises is prohibited from selling alcohol for 48 hours following a closure notice under S.169A. 5 Unknown (not provided in 2006-07). 6 Unknown (not collected in 2006-07).

Table 5: Club Premises Certificates surrendered, lapsed, withdrawn, North Lincolnshire, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Lapsed2 Withdrawn3

2006-072 4— 4— 4— 2007-08 0 0 0 2008-09 0 0 0 269W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 270W

Table 5: Club Premises Certificates surrendered, lapsed, withdrawn, North Lincolnshire, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Lapsed2 Withdrawn3

2009-10 0 0 0 1 Where a Club Premises Certificate is surrendered under Section 81(3) of the Licensing Act 2003. 2 Where a Club Premises Certificates has lapsed because it had effect for a limited period, but that period has since expired. 3 Where a Club Premises Certificate is withdrawn under Section 90 of the Licensing Act 2003. 4 Unknown (not provided in 2006-07). Table 6: Personal Licences surrendered, revoked, forfeited, suspended by a court, North Lincolnshire, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Revoked2 Forfeited3 Suspended by a court4

2006-07 5— 5— 5— 5— 2007-08 0 0 0 0 2008-09 0 0 0 0 2009-10 0 0 0 0 1 Where a Personal Licence is surrendered under Section 116 of the Licensing Act 2003. 2 Where a Personal Licence is revoked under Section 124 of the Licensing Act 2003. 3 Where a Premises Licence has been forfeited following a court order under Section 129 of the Licensing Act 2003 in the time period specified (and where that order has not been suspended, pending an appeal under Sections 129(4) or 130 of the Licensing Act 2003). 4 Where a Personal Licence is suspended following a court order under Section 129 of the Licensing Act 2003 in the time period specified (and where that order has not been suspended, pending an appeal under Sections 129(4) or 130 of the Licensing Act 2003). 5 Unknown (not provided in 2006-07).

Table 7: Premises Licences surrendered, lapsed, suspended by a court, closure notice, Yorkshire and the Humber, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Lapsed2 Suspended by a court3 Closure notice4

2006-07 244 22 7 5— 2007-08 464 58 3 5 2008-09 422 118 0 35 2009-10 505 94 0 57 1 Where a Premises Licence is surrendered under Section 28 of the Licensing Act 2003. 2 Where a Premises Licence has lapsed due to the death, incapacity, insolvency etc. of the licence holder, as set out under Section 27 of the Licensing Act 2003. Excludes instances where a Premises Licence was in effect for a limited period, but the period has since expired (e.g. one-off events). 3 Where a Premises Licence is suspended by a court, under Section 147B(1) of the Licensing Act 2003 (as amended by the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006) forthe sale or supply of alcohol, following an offence of persistently selling to underage children. 4 Where a premises is prohibited from selling alcohol for 48 hours following a closure notice under S.169A. 5 Unknown (not collected in 2006-07). Table 8: Club Premises Certificates surrendered, lapsed, withdrawn, Yorkshire and the Humber, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Lapsed2 Withdrawn3

2006-072 80 0 2007-08 19 0 1 2008-09 22 2 2 2009-10 38 1 0 1 Where a Club Premises Certificate is surrendered under Section 81(3) of the Licensing Act 2003. 2 Where a Club Premises Certificates has lapsed because it had effect for a limited period, but that period has since expired. 3 Where a Club Premises Certificate is withdrawn under Section 90 of the Licensing Act 2003. Table 9: Personal Licences surrendered, revoked, forfeited, suspended by a court, Yorkshire and the Humber, 2006-07 to 2009-10 Financial year Surrendered1 Revoked2 Forfeited3 Suspended by a court4

2006-07 28 0 0 0 2007-08 13 2 0 1 2008-09 45 0 0 1 2009-10 31 2 0 0 1 Where a Personal Licence is surrendered under Section 116 of the Licensing Act 2003. 2 Where a Personal Licence is revoked under Section 124 of the Licensing Act 2003. 3 Where a Premises Licence has been forfeited following a court order under Section 129 of the Licensing Act 2003 in the time period specified (and where that order has not been suspended, pending an appeal under Sections 129(4) or 130 of the Licensing Act 2003). 4 Where a Personal Licence is suspended following a court order under Section 129 of the Licensing Act 2003 in the time period specified (and where that order has not been suspended, pending an appeal under Sections 129(4) or 130 of the Licensing Act 2003).

National Crime Agency driven by an ‘intelligence hub’ and an effective set of tasking and co ordination arrangements. Subject to the Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for the passage of legislation, the NCA will be established by Home Department what plans she has for the (a) the end of 2013. As set out in the NCA plan, the composition, (b) recruitment and (c) deployment of intention is that the NCA will be UK-wide, in recognition the National Crime Agency (NCA); and whether she of the reach and threat of serious and organised crime, and it will respect devolution of policing in Scotland plans to engage NCA Specials. [120551] and Northern Ireland. Mr Jeremy Browne [holding answer 11 September The majority of the NCA’s work force, which will 2012]: The National Crime Agency (NCA) will be an number approximately 4,000, will be made up of staff agency of operational crime fighters, comprising four from existing precursor bodies, for example: the Serious commands (Organised Crime, Border Policing, Economic Organised Crime Agency including CEOP; and transferred Crime and Child Exploitation and Online Protection capabilities from the National Police Improvement Agency (CEOP)) and a National Cyber Crime Unit. It will be and the Metropolitan Police Central e-Crime Unit. 271W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 272W

In addition, to drive the design and build of the agency, that they could meet the Games-time requirement. On senior posts have been recruited including Keith Bristow 11 July G4S told us that, because of these problems, (former chief constable of Warwickshire), who was their targets could no longer be met. Accordingly, we appointed as the NCA’s first director general at the end immediately took the decision to deploy an additional of last year. 3,500 troops over and above the 7,500 already allocated. The Crime and Courts Bill also allows for the recruitment of volunteer NCA Specials to complement the NCA’s Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for the wider work force. They may be designated by the Director Home Department whether she has discussed with (a) General with policing powers in England and Wales, G4S and (b) others recruitment to serve in security however, the Bill makes it clear that an NCA Special roles at the London 2012 Olympics of experienced cannot be designated with the powers and privileges of retired personnel from Northern Ireland who have served a Northern Ireland constable. in both the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the Army. [118168] Olympic Games 2012: Security James Brokenshire: The contract to provide security Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for the guards for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Home Department whether she plans to impose any Games is between the London Organising Committee, penalties on G4S as a result of it not training enough LOCOG, and G4S. I understand that applications for security staff for the London 2012 Olympics. [117893] security roles from former police and military personnel were especially welcomed in view of their background James Brokenshire: The contract for venue security at and experience. We are grateful to the Police Service of the London 2012 Games is between G4S and the London Northern Ireland for their help in providing officers Organising Committee for the Olympic and Paralympic under mutual aid arrangements, funded by the Home Games (LOCOG). The contract contains penalty clauses Office, to help deliver a safe and secure Games. for non-delivery and LOCOG is seeking to enforce relevant provisions. This will be reflected in the settlement Police: Greater London that the Government pays to reimburse LOCOG for venue security costs. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many (a) police community Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for the support officers and (b) police officers there were in (i) Home Department what the nature was of the delays Bexley, (ii) Bromley, (iii) Harrow and (iv) Havering on 5 encountered by G4S in training security staff for the April (A) 2010, (B) 2011 and (C) 2012; and if she will London 2012 Olympics. [117901] make a statement. [120431]

James Brokenshire: G4S indicated to the Home Office Damian Green [holding answer 11 September 2012]: at the end of June that they were encountering specific Figures are collected by the Home Office for the number problems with their scheduling system for security staff. of police community support officers and police officers As these problems continued we started making further within Bexley, Bromley, Harrow and Havering boroughs, contingency plans over and above those we had already as at 31 March 2010 and 31 March 2011 and are given put in place, notwithstanding continued G4S assurances in the following table.

Police community support officer and police officer strength within the London boroughs of Bexley, Bromley, Harrow and Havering, as at 31 March 2010 and 31 March 20111, 2 Police community support officers Police officers 31 March 2010 31 March 2011 31 March 2010 31 March 2011

Bexley 114 97 406 400 Bromley 169 149 524 511 Harrow 117 99 404 392 Havering 124 113 395 387 1 These figures are based on full-time equivalents that have been rounded to the nearest whole number. 2 Figures include those officers on career breaks or maternity/paternity leave.

Figures at London borough level ceased to be collected Net applications centrally by the Home Office from 2011-12. received Licences granted Security Guards: Licensing January 2012 12,465 12,353 Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for the February 2012 12,170 11,985 Home Department how many licence applications were March 2012 14,988 12,444 received by the Security Industry Authority in each month from January 2012; and how many such applications April 2012 13,506 9,859 resulted in a licence being issued in each such month. May 2012 16,083 18,587 [119136] June 2012 15,321 15,038 James Brokenshire: The following table shows the July 2012 17,978 16,698 number of correctly completed net applications received August 2012 13,727 13,545 and the number of licences granted per month from Total 116,238 110,509 January to August 2012. 273W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 274W

Theft: Metals Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 17 July 2012]: The approval of a funding agreement between the Secretary Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for the of State for Education and the Academy Trust is the Home Department what legal advice she has received final stage in the process of a school becoming an on the legality of banning cash payments for scrap Academy. To reach that agreement, officials in the metal; and if she will place a copy of any such advice in Department will have had discussions with the school the Library. [120449] governing body, the local authority and a sponsor where applicable. The school governing body has particular Mr Jeremy Browne: Legal advice is by law subject to responsibility for consulting locally and passing a resolution legal professional privilege. For this reason the Government to become an Academy. do not normally comment on what legal advice it has Further information on becoming an Academy is set received on any matter. out in the guidance documentation on the Department’s website at: http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ typesofschools/academies EDUCATION Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how much his Department has paid in legal Academies fees to transfer school title deeds from local authorities to academies since June 2010. [119147] Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many applications for judicial review of Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 5 September 2012]: an academy school’s admissions appeals panel’s The Department for Education does not hold the decision were brought in each of the last three years for information in the format requested. which figures are available; and how many were For converter academies, a flat rate of £25,000 is paid successful. [113563] to contribute towards pre-opening costs including any legal costs incurred by the school. Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 25 June 2012]: Academies are their own admissions authority and, as For sponsored academies, funding is provided as part such, it is their responsibility to determine the admission of project development costs. The amount within this arrangements for their schools and to establish an that is spent on legal costs will vary dependent upon the independent appeals panel to hear appeals from parents. complexity of the case. In line with our overall policy to reduce burdens on the Since June 2010, 2,106 schools have opened as an school system, we do not collect data on admission academy, and a further 561 have received an academy appeals, or any consequential applications for judicial order to become an academy. review of appeals panel decisions taken in respect of any school type including academies. Academies: Birmingham

Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Education which are the parties to funding agreements Education pursuant to the answer of 3 July 2012, signed in respect of schools converting to academy Official Report, columns 587-8W, on academies: status. [117856] primary education, with which schools in Birmingham officials in his Department have engaged directly; what Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 17 July 2012]: The the results of that engagement have been in respect of parties to Funding Agreements signed in respect of each school; and if he will make a statement. [117805] schools converting to Academy status are the Secretary of State for Education and the Academy Trust. Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 17 July 2012]: All The Funding Agreement is the method by which schools, including special schools and pupil referral Academies are held accountable to the Department. It units, are able to become Academies. Departmental is a contract between DFE and the Academy Trust officials engage with schools to find the best route for which specifies how the Academy is run, what duties it them to achieve Academy status. For schools that wish is under and what powers the Secretary of State for to convert, engagement takes place when the Department Education has over the Academy. receives an expression of interest or application from The Department has developed templates for the the school to convert. For schools below the floor Funding Agreement and these are available at: standard or in Ofsted ‘special measures’ and ‘notice to http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ improve’ categories, officials in the Department, working typesofschools/academies/primary/steps/b00204874/ closely with the local authority when possible, will supporting-documents-for-schools-converting-to-academies/ make contact with the school to discuss options for a model-documentation-for-single-academies sponsored solution to drive up performance. As of 1 September there are 41 primary schools in Birmingham Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for in the pipeline to become Academies, and 15 are open Education what the respective roles and responsibilities as Academies. When an Academy solution is agreed for are of (a) local education authorities, (b) school a primary school, the name of the school will be added governing bodies, (c) officials in his Department and to the Department’s published lists of Academies in (d) sponsors in the (i) negotiation and (ii) approval of development at: funding agreements in respect of a school converting to http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/ academy status. [117857] typesofschools/academies/b00208569/open-academies 275W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 276W

We do not name schools where we are in the early (2) what account the Standards and Testing stages of exploring sponsored Academy options. We Agency’s new English grammar, punctuation and believe this has the potential to disrupt schools concerned. spelling test takes of compositional aspects of writing skills in addition to secretarial, grammatical and lexical Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for aspects; and if he will make a statement. [119557] Education for which schools in Birmingham he has issued an academy order, by date; on which dates he Elizabeth Truss: A statutory Key Stage 2 test of notified Birmingham city council of those orders; and grammar, punctuation and spelling will be introduced on which dates he notified the relevant hon. Member in May 2013. The new test was recommended by Lord where a funding agreement had already been signed in Bew’s independent review of Key Stage 2 testing and respect of each school. [117854] assessment in June 2011. As recommended by Lord Bew, the test will not Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 17 July 2012]: 92 assess pupils’ writing composition skills. Instead, writing schools in Birmingham have been issued with an academy composition will be subject to a teacher assessment order, of which 46 are open as academies (31 converters judgment. This will encourage pupils to undertake a and 15 sponsored). broader range of writing during Year 6, and allow them In all cases, Ministers write to local authorities to to demonstrate their achievement in this area. notify them when an academy order is issued in relation Currently a quarter of all pupils do not achieve the to a school. We also write to the Member of Parliament expected level for writing at the end of Key Stage 2, in whose constituency the school is located when a leaving them ill-equipped to participate in the more funding agreement is signed. demanding written activities required by the secondary A full list of all open and pipeline academies, showing curriculum. The new arrangements for the assessment the name of each school in the pipeline, and dates on of writing, replacing the previous Key Stage 2 writing which academies opened, is available on the DFE website test, will bring a renewed focus to basic writing skills at: and help ensure that children leave primary school highly competent in writing. http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/xls/p/publication% 20list%20for%20converter%20academies%20july%202012.xls Food Technology: Primary Education Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what funding agreements have been signed Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for in respect of schools converting to academy status in Education what his policy is on the inclusion of food Birmingham, by date and school; and when he expects technology in the national curriculum for all primary funding agreements not yet signed to be completed by schools. [119466] school. [117855] Elizabeth Truss: Food technology is currently part of design and technology which is a compulsory national Elizabeth Truss [holding answer 17 July 2012]: As of curriculum subject in primary schools. On 11 June 1 September, 46 funding agreements have been signed 2012, the Secretary of State for Education, my right for schools converting to Academy status in Birmingham. hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Of these, 31 are converters and 15 are sponsored. A Gove), announced that design and technology would further 46 are in the pipeline for conversion to Academy continue to be compulsory in the new national curriculum status (18 converters and 28 sponsored). Funding for primary schools. We are currently considering what agreements for each of these pipeline schools will be the National Curriculum programme of study for design signed once the school has completed the relevant stages and technology should cover and will make an of the conversion process. I am unable to give an announcement in due course. expected opening date for conversion, as the pace is driven by the individual schools concerned. Frank Website A full list of schools working towards achieving converter Academy status is available on the DFE website Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for at: Education what the cost to the public purse was of http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/xls/p/ marketing the Frank website in each year since 2008. publication%20list%20for%20converter% [118880] 20academies%20july%202012.xls An additional list shows sponsored Academies currently Mr Jeremy Browne: I have been asked to reply on progressing: behalf of the Home Department. http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/xls/p/ The following table shows Frank marketing spend for publication%20list%20for%20sponsored%20 each financial year since 2008-09. These figures relate to academies%20july%202012.xls advertising media costs (e.g. TV, cinema, radio, print, poster and online media) and exclude VAT, production English Language costs and agency fees. They do not include the cost of running the Frank website itself. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) if he will make it his policy that the Spend (£) Standards and Testing Agency’s new English grammar, 2008-09 3,770,000 punctuation and spelling test should not be introduced; 2009-10 3,320,000 and if he will make a statement; [119558] 277W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 278W

New Schools Network Spend (£)

2010-11 16,000 Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-12 856.000 Education if he will publish any slides and written material used in presentations by the New Schools Free School Meals Network to his Department since May 2010. [118979] Elizabeth Truss: The Department does not routinely Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for publish such materials. Education if he will make it his policy to include within the criteria for eligibility for free school meals those Pre-school Education children living in poverty after housing costs who currently do not qualify; and if he will make a Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [118358] Education how many children aged (a) three and (b) four years old are in free nursery places in (i) Dartford Mr Laws: The Department for Education is considering constituency, (ii) Kent and (iii) the UK. [119028] options for new eligibility criteria for free school meals once universal credit is introduced. Given the current Elizabeth Truss: The number of three and four-year-old economic climate we cannot at present afford to extend children attending maintained, private, voluntary, and entitlement to free school meals but we will aim to independent providers based in Dartford constituency, ensure that those families on the lowest incomes are Kent, and England who were benefiting from some free entitled to free school meals. early education is shown in the table. Number of three and four-year-old children benefiting from free early Heads of Communications education1, 2, 3 January 2012 Three-year-olds Four-year-olds Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what selection criteria were used by his Department to Dartford 1,350 1,380 Kent 16,860 17,230 recruit its last three Heads of Communications. [116592] England 625,440 638,970 1 Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education is Count of children aged three and four at 31 December in the previous calendar year. committed to ensuring that individuals are appointed 2 Numbers of three and four-year-olds in schools may include some to the civil service through fair and open competition two-year-olds. on the basis of merit. 3 Numbers rounded to nearest 10. Source: As a senior civil service position, candidates applying Early Years Census (EYC), School Census (SC), and School Level for the last three director of communications posts Annual School Census (SLASC) would have been required to show that they have the The latest figures on early education places for three appropriate level of professional skills and breadth of and four-year-olds in England were published in Statistical experience. First Release (SFR) 13/2012 “Provision for children Candidates would have been measured against the under five years of age in England: January 20127”, Professional Skills for Government (PSG) competence available at the following link: framework which is a common set of skill requirements http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001074/ across Government which include behavioural indicators index.shtml setting out the skills that staff in the civil service need to The Department for Education has responsibility for do their job well, at all grades, no matter where they England only so figures have been provided for England work. instead of the UK. Money Advice Service Pupils: Disadvantaged

Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he last met the Chair of the Money Education what plans he has to increase the level of the Advice Service; and what was discussed. [118941] pupil premium. [119338]

Elizabeth Truss: The Secretary of State for Education, Mr Laws: The pupil premium was introduced in my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath April 2011. Pupil premium funding is provided to schools (Michael Gove), has not met the Chair of the Money which have on roll pupils known to be eligible for free Advice Service. school meals (the derivation premium); children in care who have been continuously looked after for at least six Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for months (the looked after child premium); and children Education what representations he has received from whose parents are serving in the armed forces (the the Money Advice Service on financial education in service child premium). schools as part of his review of the national curriculum. The pupil premium is additional funding and was [118942] worth £625 million in financial year 2011-12 and £1.25 billion in financial year 2012-13. The deprivation Elizabeth Truss: The Money Advice Service did not and looked after children premium per pupil amount respond to the National Curriculum Review’s call for for financial year 2011-12 was £488, and has risen to evidence. £600 for financial year 2012-13. The service children 279W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 280W premium per pupil amount for 2011-12 was £200 and Justine Greening: We welcome the audit reports on rose to £250 in financial year 2012-13. The pupil premium the financial statements of the Government of Southern is set to continue to rise each year until 2014-15 when it Sudan for the financial years 2007 and 2008 which were will be worth £2.5 billion. produced by the South Sudan Audit Chamber in July. We are very concerned by the Audit Chamber’s findings, Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for including on weak budget execution, lack of complete Education how much pupil premium funding his payroll data, and poor data on oil revenues. Department has allocated to Gloucester since its We are working with the Government of South Sudan introduction. [119339] to ensure that tackling corruption remains high on their Mr Laws: The pupil premium was introduced in agenda. The UK’s support through the World Bank April 2011. Pupil premium funding is provided to schools managed the Multi-donor Trust Fund (MDTF) and which have on roll pupils known to be eligible for free through the Joint Donor Office in Juba has enabled the school meals (the derivation premium); children in care National Audit Chamber to fulfil its functions more who have been continuously looked after for at least six effectively, including the production of annual reports. months (the looked after child premium); and children We are providing support to help strengthen budget whose parents are serving in the armed forces (the systems, and we are initiating a bilateral programme of service child premium). accountability support to the South Sudan Anti-Corruption Commission. In addition the UK, together with its In the 2011-12 financial year 2,870 pupils in Gloucester Troika partners, US and Norway, and the European constituency were eligible for either the deprivation Union, hold a regular high level dialogue with a group premium or service child premium, attracting £1.363 of senior Ministers of the Government of South Sudan, million. It is not possible to identify, at constituency with a strong focus on tackling corruption. Finally, UK level, the number of pupils’ recorded as being in care or officials regularly raise corruption concerns in meetings recorded in the alternative provision census. with Government Ministers. The number of pupils eligible for the pupil premium in 2012-13 has not yet been confirmed but the provisional estimate is that 3,960 pupils will be eligible for the deprivation premium or the service child premium in CABINET OFFICE Gloucester, attracting £2.329 million. This estimate is Older People: Swindon based on January 2011 school census data and data for pupils eligible for free school meals (FSM) since 2006. Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet It reflects the decision to extend eligibility for the deprivation Office by what percentage the over 85 population premium to those eligible for FSM in the previous six in Swindon is forecast to rise over the next 20 years. years. [120489] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Fairtrade Foundation asked the authority to reply. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2012: Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State As Director General for the Office for National Statistics I for International Development what steps she is taking have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking to promote the work of the Fairtrade Foundation (a) the Minister for the Cabinet Office by what percentage the over in the UK and (b) internationally. [120555] 85 population in Swindon is forecast to rise over the next 20 years. [120489] Mr Duncan: DFID helps the work of the Fairtrade Estimates of future population are available as population Foundation through support we provide to the global projections. The most recent subnational population projections Fairtrade system. DFID has a £12 million Programme are based on mid-year population estimates for 2010. Partnership Arrangement (2010-11 to 2013-14) with Subnational population projections are not forecasts and do Fairtrade International, the umbrella organisation that not attempt to predict the impact of future government policies, changing economic circumstances or the capacity of an area to unites labelling initiatives and networks of producer accommodate a change in population. They provide an indication organisations. DFID’s support is focused on strengthening, of the future size and age structure of the population if recent broadening and deepening the activities of Fairtrade demographic trends continued. International. Between mid-2010 and mid-2030, the over 85 population in DFID also promotes the work of the Fairtrade Swindon is projected to rise from 3,119 to 7,184, an increase of Foundation through our support to Fairtrade Fortnight 130 percent. Looking at this as a proportion of the total population, each year. This year, DFID Ministers visited companies the over 85 population is projected to increase by approximately and groups that promote Fairtrade, ahead of Fairtrade one percent from 1.6 to 2.9 percent. The over 85 age group has Fortnight. been defined as 86 and over. South Sudan BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what reports she has received on the first Apprentices official publication from the National Audit Chamber in South Sudan; and what steps her Department is Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for taking to assist the development of effective, democratic Business, Innovation and Skills how many apprenticeship and transparent governance mechanisms in South Sudan. starts there were in (a) Swindon and (b) England in [119480] each of the last 10 years. [120492] 281W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 282W

Matthew Hancock: The following table shows the Michael Fallon [holding answer 7 September 2012]: number of apprenticeship programme starts in Swindon This Government has taken significant and concrete local authority between 2005/06 to 2010/11 academic steps to reduce the burden of regulation on small and year and for England between 2002/03 to 2010/11. medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) which will benefit 2005/06 is the earliest year for which comparable sub- SMEs in England including Northamptonshire: national data are available and 2010/11 is the latest year We have recently announced that from April 2013 hundreds of for which final data are available. thousands of businesses will be exempted from burdensome, regular health and safety inspections. Apprenticeship In addition, the Government will introduce legislation next programme starts in Swindon local authority, month to ensure that businesses will only be held liable for civil 2005/06 to 2010/11 England total damages in health and safety cases if they can be shown to have acted negligently. This will end the current situation where businesses 2002/03 — 167,700 can automatically be liable for damages even if they were not 2003/04 — 193,600 negligent. 2004/05 — 189,000 The Government is also continuing to take radical action on 2005/06 490 175,000 red to boost growth and jobs in the economy. The Government is 2006/07 660 184,400 systematically examining some 6,500 substantive regulations that it inherited, through the Red Tape Challenge process. The Government 2007/08 830 224,800 has committed to abolish or substantially reduce at least 3,000 of 2008/09 940 239,900 these regulations. We will complete the identification of the 2009/10 1,080 279,700 regulations to be scrapped or overhauled by December 2013. 2010/11 1,640 457,200 These commitments constitute the most ambitious Notes: action ever proposed by a modern British Government 1. Figures for Swindon are rounded to the nearest 10; England figures are rounded to the nearest 100. to slash the burden of regulation and set businesses free. 2. Geography is based on the home postcode of the learner. Geographic They will save British companies millions of pounds in information is based on boundaries of regions as of May 2010. wasted time and money, and help spur economic growth 3. Figures for England include some postcodes which are outside of and innovation across the UK. England. Source: These new commitments are part of our relentless Individualised Learner Record drive to tackle the burden which regulation places on Information on the number of apprenticeship starts smaller businesses. We have already delivered significant by geography is published in a supplementary table to a savings: quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR). The latest We have saved SMEs £388 million by not extending the right to SFR was published on 28 June 2012: request time to train to businesses with fewer than 250 employees; http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statistical firstrelease/ We have exempted smaller retailers for three years from the sfr_current display ban on tobacco, which applies to supermarkets and very http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statistical firstrelease/ large stores from April 2012; sfr_supplementary_tables/Apprenticeship_sfr_supplementary We are phasing implementation of pensions auto enrolment, _tables/ so that small businesses will not need to comply until June 2015; We have achieved agreement in Brussels to exempting up to Apprentices: Greater London 1.4 million UK small businesses from certain EU accounting rules. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, More widely, we have introduced a three year moratorium Innovation and Skills how many apprenticeships were on new domestic regulation for micro-businesses and offered in the (a) public sector and (b) private sector start-ups from 1 April 2011 in order to support growth to young people in each London local authority in each and establish a period of increased regulatory stability of the last five years. [120320] for the smallest businesses. Matthew Hancock: We do not measure the number of We have also introduced the One-in, One-out rule, so apprenticeship starts in the public and private sector. that if a Department wants to introduce a new regulation which generates costs for business, they must first identify Information on the number of Apprenticeship starts a corresponding cut in regulation elsewhere with the by Sector Subject Area is published in a supplementary same value. table to a quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 28 June 2012: Finally, Focus on Enforcement, a new campaign and http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ call for evidence launched at Budget this year, is undertaking statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current a series of sector-based regulatory reviews looking at http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ how enforcement of legislation is experienced from the statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ point of view of business. Each review is identifying Apprenticeship_sfr_supplementary_ tables/ where inappropriate or excessive enforcement of regulation by national and local regulators is holding business Business: Regulation back and seeking to identify good practice that could be replicated elsewhere. Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what progress he has Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for made in cutting red tape for small and medium-sized Business, Innovation and Skills how many submissions enterprises in (a) England and (b) Northamptonshire have been made to the Red Tape Challenge since its since May 2010. [120001] launch. [120490] 283W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 284W

Michael Fallon: As of September 2012, the Red Tape http://www.redtapechallenge.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/ Challenge has received over 29,000 comments posted on its website. A further 1,000 submissions have been Developing Countries: Trade sent to the Red Tape Challenge inbox. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment Business, Innovation and Skills what consideration he he has made of progress on the Doha Round; and if he has given to the potential contribution of the submissions will make a statement. [120213] to the Red Tape Challenge to the Government’s objective to cut red tape. [120491] Michael Fallon: The UK remains strongly committed to the World Trade Organisation (WTO) and the Michael Fallon: All comments and submissions received multilateral system. Recognising that it will be very as part of the Red Tape Challenge have been thoroughly difficult to conclude the full Doha Round in its current analysed by Departments and fed into their proposals form, we are looking at where progress could be made for cutting red tape. on the most advanced areas of the round and to prioritise In many cases, comments and submissions to the Red elements that are of concern to the poorest countries. Tape Challenge have directly led to decisions being The WTO can make progress on these issues as taken. For example, comments during the retail theme shown by its adoption of the revised procedures for the highlighted issues with overlapping and costly consumer accession of least developed countries which were adopted legislation. As a consequence we have committed to by the WTO in July this year. scrap or improve some 12 pieces of consumer legislation. Submissions to the hospitality, food and drink theme EU Internal Trade raised problems with regulations governing entertainment licensing at small venues. The Government has consulted Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for on removing parts of the Licensing Act 2003 to solve Business, Innovation and Skills what the primary (a) these problems. In response to concerns raised through imported and (b) exported goods and services are the employment related law theme we are introducing between the UK and Europe. [119864] major reforms to employment tribunals. Further examples can be found on the Red Tape Michael Fallon: The primary goods imported and Challenge website at: exported are shown in the following tables.

Top 10 goods imports to UK from EU by commodity (SITC) 2011 (£ billion) Percentage of total

781 Motor cars and other m/vehicles principally designed for transport of persons (o/t 19 9 public-transport vehicles) 334 Oils obtained from petroleum or bituminous minerals 9 4 784 Parts and accessories of the motor vehicles of group 722, 781, 782 and 783 8 4 542 Medicaments (including veterinary medicaments) 8 4 764 Telecommunications equipment 6 3 752 Computers 42 641 Paper and paperboard 42 713 Internal combustion piston engines, and parts thereof, nes 3 1 112 Alcoholic beverages 31 782 Motor vehicles for the transport of goods and special purposes motor vehicles 3 1 Top 10 66 32 Other 138 68

Top 10 goods exports from UK to EU by commodity (SITC) 2011 (£ billion) Percentage of total

333 Petroleum oils and oils obtained from bituminous minerals, crude 14 9 334 Oils obtained from petroleum or bituminous minerals 12 7 781 Motor cars and other m/vehicles principally designed for transport of persons 9 6 542 Medicaments (including veterinary medicaments) 8 5 792 Aircraft and associated equipment; spacecraft (including satellites) and spacecraft 43 launch vehicles; parts thereof 541 Medicinal and pharmaceutical products, other than medicaments of group 542 4 3 713 Internal combustion piston engines, and parts thereof, nes 3 2 764 Telecommunications equipment, nes 3 2 343 Natural gas, whether or not liquified 3 2 784 Parts and accessories of the motor vehicles of group 722, 781, 782 and 783 3 2 Top 10 63 40 Other 95 60 Source: HMRC 285W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 286W

The UK imported over £200 billion of goods from Jo Swinson: No BIS Minister has met Intern Aware the EU in 2011. £19 billion of imports were motor cars in the last 12 months. (9% of total imports by value from the EU). The UK exported over £150 billion of goods to the EU. Petroleum oils (SITC 333 and 334) together accounted Overseas Trade for 16% of these exports by value. Other primary goods exports included motor cars, aircraft, and pharmaceuticals, as shown in the table. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what assessment his In 2011, the UK imported £59 billion of services Department has made of the implementation of its from the EU, of which £18 billion was travel services, February 2011 White Paper on Trade and Investment £14 billion was “other business services”, and £11 billion for Growth; [119641] was transportation services. (2) what progress his Department has made in In 2011, the UK exported £75 billion of services to working with domestic departments to promote the the EU, of which £21 billion was financial services, British economy overseas. [119679] £20 billion was “other business services”, £10 billion was travel services, and £9 billion was transportation services. Michael Fallon: The actions called for in the ’Trade Goods data is from HM Revenue and Customs and and Investment for Growth’ White Paper cut across published on their website: Government Departments and are being implemented under the oversight of the Economic Affairs cabinet www.uktradeinfo.com sub-committee on Trade and Investment—the EA(TI)— Goods are allocated a commodity code based on the which is chaired by the Minister of State for Trade Standard International Trade Classification (SITC). Services and Investment, my noble Friend, Lord Green of data are collated from various statistical surveys, and Hurstpierpoint. We have laid much of the necessary published by the Office for National Statistics in the groundwork and made some real progress. The majority UK Balance of Payments (Pink Book) also available of White Paper commitments are on track to deliver online. against the agreed timeframes and milestones. However, we are taking a long term approach and our strategy India cannot be secured in 18 months. A report detailing progress and achievements in the first year following Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the launch of the White Paper can be downloaded from Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with the BIS website at: the government of India on allowing multi-brand retailers www.bis.gov.uk/policies/trade-policy-unit/trade-white-paper/ access to markets in India. [118899] white-paper-one-year-on The EA(TI) was created by the Prime Minister to Michael Fallon: The Government wants to see co-ordinate the implementation of the policies set out liberalisation in India across a range of economic sectors, in the White Paper. With wide membership at Minister including multi-brand retail. We are continuing to press of State level, covering all Departments with a key the EU and Government of India to deliver on this. The interest in trade and investment, the Committee considers Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the significant issues affecting the promotion of trade the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), and investment with the UK and co-ordinates action has raised this with his Indian counterpart Anand Sharma across Whitehall. on several occasions. The British high commissioner to India and his officials also regularly discuss these issues with Government of India counterparts. Overseas Trade: BRIC Countries

Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects the Ian Paisley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, EU and India to sign a free trade agreement. [118900] Innovation and Skills what estimate his Department has made of the level of growth in UK exports to (a) Michael Fallon: The most recent statement issued by Russia and (b) Brazil in 2012. [118891] Trade Commissioner Karel De Gucht and Commerce Minister Anand Sharmaon 26 June 2012 was optimistic Michael Fallon: In Q1 2012, UK exports of goods about progress towards conclusion of negotiations this and services totalled £2,149 million to Russia and year. The Government is keen to see an agreement £1,034 million to Brazil. There was an increase of concluded as soon as possible, but there are still a £396 million (23%) to Russia and £119 million (13%) to number of issues to be resolved on the liberalisation of Brazil compared to Q1 2011. Estimates for Q2 2012 will both goods and services. be released by the Office for National Statistics in late September 2012. Intern Aware Data for trade in goods only, collected by HM Revenue and Customs, shows total goods exports of £2,877 million Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for to Russia and £1,259 million to Brazil, up £753 million Business, Innovation and Skills how many times (a) he (35%) and £240 million (24%) respectively on the first and (b) Ministers in his Department have met Intern half of 2011. Each month saw growth in goods exports Aware in the last 12 months. [119966] by value (compared to the same month in 2011). 287W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 288W

Pharmacy: Opening Hours hon. Member with regard to their respective companies; copies of their replies will be placed in the Libraries of Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State the House. for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what his policy Regulation is on allowing supermarket pharmacies to extend their opening hours; [120270] Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) whether his Department has commissioned Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Department research into the potential effect on local pharmacies of has made an estimate of the (a) cost and (b) time allowing supermarket pharmacies to increase their required for a business to comply with each piece of opening hours. [120271] regulation for which it is responsible. [118681]

Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation Michael Fallon: The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has commissioned no such research. General and Skills follows the one-in-one-out methodology in Pharmacy regulation is a matter for the Department of order to calculate the cost and time required for a Health. business to comply with new domestic regulation. The Post Offices: Closures Government publishes the Statement of New Regulation twice a year which gives an overview of the net cost to business from new domestic regulation. Individual Impact Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Assessments are also published on the Impact Assessment Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Library and can be accessed via the website. made of the potential number of post office closures that will occur as a consequence of the abolition of core-tier fixed payments to post offices. [119162] FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Jo Swinson [holding answer 5 September 2012]: The Burma Government has made a clear commitment that there will be no programme of post office closures. This is Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for supported by £1.34 billion funding to maintain a network Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has of at least 11,500 branches, and also to modernise raised the situation of the Rohingya people in Burma around 6,000 post offices by 2015 in a process known as with his European counterparts; and when he next Network Transformation. This is a completely voluntary plans to do so. [120314] process, no sub-postmaster is being forced to change their contract and for those who do not opt to change, Mr Swire: Burma is due to be discussed by EU we are not abolishing the Core Tier Payment. It should Foreign Ministers at the Foreign Affairs Council in be noted that Post Office Ltd has reported an encouraging October and the situation in Rakhine state is likely to level of interest in converting to the new operating feature prominently in these discussions. models under Network Transformation from existing The situation in Rakhine state was also discussed by sub-postmasters. senior EU member state officials in Brussels in July at Post Offices: Credit Cards the UK’s initiative. They will do so again in September. Our embassy in Rangoon is in close touch with all EU Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for missions and as local EU presidency, is leading the EU Business, Innovation and Skills for what reasons post response. offices are not able to accept credit card payment for We will continue to work urgently with our international car tax renewals. [119215] partners, and through the UN and EU, to highlight the plight of the Rohingya. Jo Swinson [holding answer 5 September 2012]: Post Office Ltd is responsible for operational matters pertaining Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for to the Post Office network, which includes the information Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has requested. I have therefore asked Paula Vennells, the discussed the situation of the Rohingya people in Burma chief executive of Post Office Ltd, to respond directly to with his counterpart in the Government of Burma. the hon. Member and a copy of her reply will be placed [120315] in the Libraries of the House. Mr Swire: During his visit to Burma from 5-6 January Postal Services: Crimes of Violence this year, the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), raised with the Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the Foreign Minister the discrimination suffered by the number of (a) Post Office and (b) Royal Mail staff Rohingya community, who have been denied citizenship and access to basic services and rights. that were assaulted in (i) 2010 and (11) 2011. [118918] The Secretary of State also met a range of representatives Jo Swinson: Post Office Ltd and Royal Mail management from ethnic communities, including the Kachin, Rohingya, are responsible for the day-to-day running of their Shan, Rakhine, Chin, Mon, Karen and Karenni to hear respective companies, which includes the information more about their concerns and aspirations. requested. I have therefore asked both Paula Vennells, As I set out in the Westminster Hall debate of chief executive of Post Office Ltd, and Moya Greene, 11 September 2012, Official Report, columns 20-24WH, chief executive of Royal Mail, to respond directly to the on the treatment of Rohingya, Ministers continue to 289W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 290W raise their concerns about the lack of respect for human Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for rights with the Burmese Government at every opportunity. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to During his visit to Burma in April, the Prime Minister the written ministerial statement of 19 May 2011, Official welcomed the changes already introduced while highlighting Report, column 27WS, on pre-Foreign Affairs Council the areas where further progress was needed including and General Affairs Council (23 to 24 May 2011), if he political prisoners and ethnic reconciliation. The Prime will make representations to Prosecutor Luis Moreno Minister also met with representatives from the Rohingya Ocampo that Abdullah Senussi should face a transparent community during this visit. trial at the International Criminal Court. [120443] Foreign and Commonwealth Office officials in Rangoon and in London continue to raise our concerns with Alistair Burt: On 5 September, Gaddafi’s former senior members and representatives of the Burmese intelligence chief Abdullah al-Senussi was extradited to Government and with our international partners. Libya by the Mauritanian authorities. We understand that al-Senussi is formally in the custody of the Libyan India authorities. The Libyan Prime Minister has stated publicly that al-Senussi will receive: Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for “a fair trial during which the international standards of dignity Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if the Government will be respected”. will offer support or expertise to the Indian Government In light of the International Criminal Court’s (ICC) to adopt an anti-trafficking law in respect of the treatment outstanding arrest warrant for al-Senussi the Libyan of Dalits in that country. [120216] authorities and the ICC will need to engage on the matter of where al-Senussi should be tried. The ICC is Mr Swire: Human trafficking is prohibited under an independent judicial institution and it would be article 23 of the constitution of India. We support inappropriate to seek to make representations to the co-operation between UK and Indian enforcement agencies new Prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda. The British Government in a range of areas and will continue to engage the will continue to encourage co-operation between the Indian authorities on measures to combat human trafficking ICC and the Libyan authorities and to ensure that any and illegal immigration, including offering UK experience future legal process is conducted according to international and expertise where appropriate. standards. Our high commission in New Delhi is involved in a pilot project to improve the exchange of information Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for between agencies dealing with the prevention of trafficking Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to and the rehabilitation of victims of commercial sexual the written ministerial statement of 19 May 2011, exploitation in India. Our analysis is that trafficking is a Official Report, column 27WS, on pre-Foreign Affairs particular risk for India’s poorest and socially excluded Council and General Affairs Council (23 to 24 May groups, including Dalits. The UK Government ensures 2011), if he will make representations to the Libyan that all British development programmes are designed Foreign Ministry that Abdullah Senussi should face a to benefit particularly the poorest and most excluded. transparent trial at the International Criminal Court. These programmes help to address some of the ’push [120444] factors’ for trafficking such as poverty, lack of opportunity and illiteracy, and are also a means of raising awareness Alistair Burt: On 5 September, Gaddafi’s former of the threat of trafficking in rural districts. Examples intelligence chief Abdullah al-Senussi was extradited to include the Indian Government’s ‘Education for All’ Libya by the Mauritanian authorities. We understand scheme, which has helped bring the proportion of Dalit that al-Senussi is formally in the custody of the Libyan children in school into line with their proportion in the authorities. The Libyan Prime Minister has stated publicly general population; and our civil society programmes, that al-Senussi will receive: which support excluded groups in India’s 90 poorest “a fair trial during which the international standards of dignity districts to understand their rights and access government will be respected”. services. In light of the International Criminal Court’s (ICC) Libya outstanding arrest warrant for al-Senussi, the Libyan authorities and the ICC will need to engage on the matter of where al-Senussi should be tried. The British Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Government will continue to encourage co-operation Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he between the ICC and the Libyan authorities, including has received on where the case of Abdullah al-Senussi the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and to ensure that any will be heard. [120377] future legal process is conducted according to international standards. Alistair Burt: The question of where the case of Abdullah al-Senussi will be heard is a matter of continued Middle East discussion between the Libyan authorities and the International Criminal Court (ICC). The Libyan Prime Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Minister has stated publicly that al-Senussi will receive: Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his “a fair trial during which the international standards of dignity Department is taking to support and enhance religious will be respected.” freedom in the Middle East. [120455] The British Government will continue to encourage co-operation between the ICC and the Libyan authorities Alistair Burt: We deplore all discrimination against and to ensure that any future legal process is conducted religious minorities and constraints on their freedom to according to international standards. practise their faiths. 291W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Written Answers 292W

We regularly stress to the Governments of countries Child and Fourth Geneva Convention by that country undergoing political transitions that respect for human in relation to Palestinian children under Israeli military rights and dignity are universal rights which must underline law. [120507] all political systems, without exception, benefiting all. In Egypt, we are following closely President Mursi’s Alistair Burt: The British ambassador to Israel has actions to fulfil the commitment he made in his presidential discussed the report’s findings with the Israeli Attorney- acceptance speech to respect human rights and tackle General and Deputy Attorney-General and with the discrimination, including against minorities. In Syria, Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. We will continue we continue to urge opposition groups to work together dialogue with the Israeli authorities on this issue. to build a shared future which has at its heart an We are also in contact with the report’s authors inclusive and representative political system adhering to about other possible follow up to the report. international human rights standards and guaranteeing UKTI and Scottish Development International minority rights. We do not limit our response to words. In Iraq we Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for have funded a grassroots religious reconciliation initiative Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his involving a series of meetings to encourage dialogue Department has paid to (a) UK Trade and Investment between local religious leaders from across the sectarian and (b) Scottish Development International in each of divides. In Egypt, we have been supportive of interfaith the last five years. [120553] dialogue and initiatives such as Beit El-Eila. We also use Mr Lidington: UK Trade & Investment (UKTI) is a our close relationship with Al-Azhar University to promote joint non-ministerial Government Department of the intra-faith dialogue. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) We are confident that more open and inclusive societies and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO). are the surest route to stability and security, including The FCO’s funding of UKTI is published annually in for minorities. The UK is supporting this process through UKTI’s annual report and accounts, memorandum notes, our Arab Partnership, by promoting the strengthening statement of comprehensive net expenditure, available of institutions crucial for more open and accountable at: societies, including the judiciary, a free press and a http://www.ukti.gov.uk/uktihome/aboutukti/ourperformance/ vibrant civil society. officialreports/departmentalreportresourceaccounts.html The most recent accounts were laid before the House on Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 28 June 2012 [HC47]. and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to the report, The Foreign and Commonwealth Office does not pay Children in Military Custody, what recent progress the any money directly to Scottish Development International. Government has made in persuading the government of The organisation’s funding is provided via the UK Israel to adopt the recommendations of the report, on Government’s annual block grant to the Scottish breaches of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Government.

1MC Ministerial Corrections12 SEPTEMBER 2012 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

Ministerial Corrections Number1 2009 60 Wednesday 12 September 2012 2010 40 2011 80 2012 (at 21 May) 20 1 This table does not show the total number of call-outs by ammunition DEFENCE technical officers—just those to viable devices. Bomb Disposal

Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for TREASURY Defence (1) on how many occasions ammunition technical Beer Duty officers were called to viable explosive devices in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010, (d) 2011 and (e) 2012; [109388] The following is the answer given by the Economic Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for Bromsgrove (2) what the average response time was to bomb (Sajid Javid), to a question from the hon. Member for incidents by ammunition technical officers in (a) 2009, Lincoln (Karl McCartney) during Treasury Question (b) 2010, (c) 2011 and (d) 2012; and if he will make a Time on 11 September 2012. statement. [109419] [Official Report, 24 May 2012, Vol. 545, c. 828-29W.] Karl McCartney: I welcome the new Minister to his Letter of correction from Nick Harvey: post and thank him for that answer. In my constituency, An error has been identified in the written answer the beer and pubs sector supports around 1,300 jobs. At given to the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) a time when household incomes are static and pubs on 24 May 2012. The answer stated the actual number have seen a reduction in trade as a result of the smoking of viable devices found, rather than the number of ban and other nanny state impositions by the Labour call-outs. Government, does he agree that the Treasury needs to provide further support to the industry by reversing the The full answer given was as follows: trend of rises in beer duty, which has grown by more than 40% since 2008? Nick Harvey: The number of call-outs by ammunition technical officers to viable explosive devices across the Sajid Javid: As the incoming Economic Secretary, United Kingdom is shown in the following table. Viable I note that I have been given responsibility for some of devices are defined as those which contain the relevant the more popular duties and taxes. components and are built in a manner which suggests that they would have successfully detonated prior to There will be no further changes to alcohol duties Explosive Ordnance Device team action. The figures beyond those designed and pre-announced by the previous are rounded to the nearest 10. Government, but I hope that the minimum unit pricing system that the Government have announced will make Number1 a difference to pubs, along with other measures that we have announced to help small businesses such as reducing 2008 50 the corporation tax rate, the extension of the small 2009 60 business rate relief holiday and the reduction of the 2010 50 small profits tax rate. 2011 120 [Official Report, 11 September 2012, Vol. 550, c. 125.] 2012 (at 21 May) 30 Letter of correction from Sajid Javid: 1 This table does not show the total number of call-outs by ammunition technical officers—just those to viable devices. An error has been identified in the oral answer given on 11 September 2012 to the hon. Member for Lincoln Average response times are not held centrally and (Karl McCartney). could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The correct answer should have been: The correct answer should have been: Sajid Javid: As the incoming Economic Secretary, Nick Harvey: The number of call-outs by ammunition I note that I have been given responsibility for some of technical officers to viable explosive devices across the the more popular duties and taxes. United Kingdom is shown in the following table. Viable devices are defined as those which contain the relevant Budget 2012 announced no further changes to alcohol components and are built in a manner which suggests duties beyond those designed and pre-announced by that they would have successfully detonated prior to the previous Government, but I hope that the minimum Explosive Ordnance Device team action. The figures unit pricing system that the Government have announced are rounded to the nearest 10. will make a difference to pubs, along with other measures that we have announced to help small businesses such Number1 as reducing the corporation tax rate, the extension of the small business rate relief holiday and the reduction 2008 50 of the small profits tax rate.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 12 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 272 SCOTLAND—continued Engagements...... 272 Olympic and Paralympic Games...... 266 Olympic and Paralympic Games...... 272 SCOTLAND...... 263 Post Offices ...... 268 Common Agricultural Policy ...... 265 Public Expenditure...... 270 Independence (Defence Industry) ...... 263 Trade Unions (Blacklisting) ...... 270 Minimum Alcohol Price...... 269 West Lothian Question ...... 271 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 12 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 9WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 9WS Reserves (Call Out Order) ...... 9WS Olympic Truce...... 9WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 12 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH...... 1P HEALTH—continued Access to homeopathic medicines ...... 1P Rushden Ambulance Station (Northamptonshire). 2P Independent pharmacy provision in Brierley Hill Dudley ...... 1P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 12 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 250W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 250W Stalking...... 250W Public Libraries...... 250W Third Sector...... 250W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 280W Apprentices...... 280W DEFENCE...... 224W Apprentices: Greater London ...... 281W Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile ...... 224W Business: Regulation ...... 281W Armed Forces ...... 225W Developing Countries: Trade ...... 284W Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency ...... 226W EU Internal Trade...... 284W Defence Equipment ...... 226W India ...... 285W Defence Infrastructure Organisation...... 226W Intern Aware ...... 285W Hercules Aircraft ...... 227W Overseas Trade...... 286W RAF Menwith Hill ...... 228W Overseas Trade: BRIC Countries ...... 286W Reserve Forces ...... 228W Pharmacy: Opening Hours ...... 287W Service Personnel and Veterans Agency ...... 228W Post Offices: Closures...... 287W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 229W Post Offices: Credit Cards ...... 287W Warships ...... 230W Postal Services: Crimes of Violence...... 287W Regulation ...... 288W EDUCATION...... 273W CABINET OFFICE...... 280W Academies...... 273W Older People: Swindon...... 280W Academies: Birmingham...... 274W English Language ...... 275W Food Technology: Primary Education ...... 276W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 246W Frank Website...... 276W Council Tax ...... 246W Free School Meals...... 277W Council Tax Benefits...... 246W Heads of Communications ...... 277W Fire Stations: Ambulance Services ...... 247W Money Advice Service...... 277W Housing: Construction...... 248W New Schools Network...... 278W Housing: Milton Keynes ...... 248W Pre-school Education...... 278W Planning Obligations...... 249W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 278W Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 279W AFFAIRS...... 224W Fairtrade Foundation...... 279W Floods...... 224W South Sudan ...... 279W Horses: Databases...... 224W JUSTICE...... 241W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 288W Anti-slavery Day ...... 241W Burma...... 288W Drugs: Sentencing...... 242W India ...... 289W Libya...... 289W SCOTLAND...... 249W Middle East ...... 290W Coastguard Stations...... 249W UKTI and Scottish Development International..... 292W Post Offices: DVLA Tender...... 249W Unemployment ...... 249W HEALTH...... 251W Ambulance Services: Crimes of Violence ...... 251W TRANSPORT ...... 242W Cancer ...... 251W Driving Offences: Insurance...... 242W Dementia ...... 253W Electric Vehicles ...... 243W Haemophilia ...... 254W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 243W Health...... 255W Motorways: Repairs and Maintenance...... 243W Health Services ...... 255W Railways: Franchises ...... 244W Hospitals: Crimes of Violence...... 256W Roads: Barnsley ...... 245W Mental Health Services ...... 256W Roads: Repairs and Maintenance...... 245W Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 257W Traffic Lights: Bicycles...... 245W NHS: Negligence ...... 258W Nurses: Schools...... 257W TREASURY ...... 230W Orthopaedics...... 258W Corporation Tax ...... 230W Out-patients: Attendance...... 259W Income Tax ...... 231W Thalidomide...... 259W LIBOR...... 232W Loans...... 233W Minimum Wage ...... 233W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 259W Mortgages...... 233W Animal Experiments ...... 259W Revenue and Customs: Chadwell Heath...... 233W Animal Experiments: Scotland ...... 260W Santander Group ...... 233W Animal Experiments: Wales ...... 262W UK Trade and Investment...... 234W Automatic Number Plate Recognition ...... 265W Work Experience...... 234W Civil Disorder: Greater London...... 265W Immigration Controls ...... 265W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 241W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 266W Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ...... 241W Internet: Harassment ...... 266W Licensing Laws...... 266W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 234W National Crime Agency ...... 269W Employment ...... 234W Olympic Games 2012: Security ...... 271W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 235W Police: Greater London...... 272W Independent Living Fund ...... 236W Security Guards: Licensing ...... 271W Pensions: Financial Assistance Scheme...... 237W Theft: Metals ...... 273W Personal Independence Payment...... 237W Remploy...... 238W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 223W Social Security Benefits: Young People ...... 238W Hearing Impairment ...... 223W Universal Credit...... 241W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Wednesday 12 September 2012

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 1MC TREASURY ...... 2MC Bomb Disposal ...... 1MC Beer Duty ...... 2MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 19 September 2012

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 12 September 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 263] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Hillsborough [Col. 283] Statement—(Prime Minister)

Coroners and Justice (Amendment) [Col. 307] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Sir Paul Beresford)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Defamation Bill [Col. 309] As amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed

Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards [Col. 382] Motion—(John Thurso)—agreed to

Gloucestershire Libraries [Col. 392] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Human Rights Violations [Col. 75WH] Petrol Prices (Wyre Forest) [Col. 97WH] Aerospace Industry [Col. 105WH] Police Officer Reductions [Col. 128WH] Protecting the Antarctic [Col. 136WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 9WS]

Petitions [Col. 1P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 223W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 1MC]