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Voices of Feminism Oral History Project Amber Hollibaugh, Interviewed by Kelly Anderson Tape 1 of 10 Page 2 of 166 Voices of Feminism Oral History Project Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College Northampton, MA AMBER HOLLIBAUGH Interviewed by KELLY ANDERSON December 15 and 16, 2003, January 20, 2004 New York, New York This interview was made possible with generous support from the Ford Foundation. © Sophia Smith Collection 2004 Narrator Amber Lynne Hollibaugh (b.1946), a “lesbian sex radical, ex-hooker, incest survivor, Gypsy child, poor-white-trash, high femme dyke,” grew up in a mixed-race, working-class family near Bakersfield, California. Hollibaugh’s movement politics date back to Freedom Summer in 1964 and she’s been a fulltime movement activist—whether New Left, feminist, or queer—ever since. For the past two decades, Hollibaugh has been at the center of feminist debate over sexuality and a leader in the fight against AIDS. She was the founding director of the Lesbian AIDS Project at the Gay Men’s Health Crisis, the first project of its kind in the nation, and produced an award- winning documentary on women living with AIDS, Heart of the Matter (1994). She is the author of My Dangerous Desires: A Queer Girl Dreaming Her Way Home (2000) and is currently the senior strategist with the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. Interviewer Kelly Anderson is an educator, historian, and community activist. She has an M.A. in women’s history from Sarah Lawrence College and is a Ph.D. candidate in U.S. History at the CUNY Graduate Center. Abstract In this interview Hollibaugh details growing up in a mixed-race (Romany and Irish), working- poor family in rural California. Her family stories are incredibly rich—from tales of her grandmother Gypsy’s fierce independence—and incredibly painful, from the Klan to her mother’s loss of a child. Hollibaugh describes a sexually fraught and complicated adolescence, boarding school in Switzerland, dancing in Vegas and sex work in San Francisco, and finding radical politics and alternative communities. The interview focuses on themes of sexuality and politics and Hollibaugh weaves her changing consciousness and desire through the details of her marriage, coming out process, relationships, and women’s movement politics. She describes SNCC, the Red Family in Berkeley and New Left politics, lesbian feminism, the sex wars and the 1982 Barnard conference, and her work in the queer movement, particularly around AIDS. Lastly, Hollibaugh talks about her life as a writer and filmmaker and about the class politics of doing both. Hollibaugh’s vivid memories and keen intellect make this an exciting and invaluable interview. Restrictions None Format Interview recorded on miniDV using Sony Digital Camcorder DSR-PDX10. Ten 60-minute tapes. Transcript Transcribed by Lisa Miller and Luann Jette. Audited for accuracy and edited for clarity by Kelly Anderson and Revan Schendler. Transcript has been reviewed and approved by Amber Hollibaugh. Bibliography and Footnote Citation Forms Video Recording Bibliography: Hollibaugh, Amber. Interview by Kelly Anderson. Video recording, December 15-16, 2003 and January 20, 2004. Voices of Feminism Oral History Project, Sophia Smith Collection. Footnote: Amber Hollibaugh, interview by Kelly Anderson, video recording, January 20, 2004, Voices of Feminism Oral History Project, Sophia Smith Collection, tape 2. Transcript Bibliography: Hollibaugh, Amber. Interview by Kelly Anderson. Transcript of video recording, December 15-16, 2003 and January 20, 2004. Voices of Feminism Oral History Project, Sophia Smith Collection. Footnote: Amber Hollibaugh, interview by Kelly Anderson, transcript of video recording, January 20, 2004, Voices of Feminism Oral History Project, Sophia Smith Collection, pp. 23–24. Amber Hollibaugh, interviewed by Kelly Anderson Tape 1 of 10 Page 1 of 166 Voices of Feminism Oral History Project Sophia Smith Collection Smith College Northampton, MA Transcript of interview conducted DECEMBER 15-16, 2003, and JANUARY 20, 2004, with: AMBER HOLLIBAUGH at: New York, New York by: KELLY ANDERSON ANDERSON: So, okay, for the record, it is December 15, I think. I’m with Amber Hollibaugh at her apartment in the East Village, the quickly gentrifying East Village. She won’t be here for much longer. And we’re on East Seventh Street, between C and D, in her 6th floor walk-up. And, we’re just going to start, I mean, let’s just start by talking about your, your early childhood memories and years, I mean, that you write a little bit about, there’s some anecdotes and some laying out of the chronology of your life in your, in your memoir and your collection of essays, but there’s a lot that’s missing. So, let’s just start with your parents. I was, you know—how did they get to California? HOLLIBAUGH: Okay. Oh, that’s interesting. ANDERSON: Your family background—your father, as you said, is Gypsy, your mother’s Irish, how did they make, how did their families get to California? HOLLIBAUGH: My mom got to California— she really was traditional Irish, poor Irish out of the dustbowl, out of the migration from, I think, I think my mother— I can’t remember exactly— but I think she was born in Kansas City, Missouri, or she was that part of Missouri, Arkansas, something. And her mother was married to a — I’m trying to remember, actually it turns out it’s hard to remember everything. My mother’s mother was married to an Irish cop. And she married him and divorced him three times, and had three children. So she had the oldest daughter and my mother in like, Kansas City, or in some part of — and then they came as part of the migration. And they really came to Los Angeles, that’s what the assumption was— her mother was fleeing this bad marriage—divorce for Catholics is just, especially in that period of time, just was unheard of, so she just left. With her, with her kids. Sophia Smith Collection Voices of Feminism Oral History Project Amber Hollibaugh, interviewed by Kelly Anderson Tape 1 of 10 Page 2 of 166 ANDERSON: So she went alone with the kids. HOLLIBAUGH: And she got to LA, and like a lot of people that tried that, LA had appeared to be a place that had endless work, but in fact there wasn’t endless work, and so people got there and then had nothing, and had nobody to rely on. I mean, they didn’t have a system, they were poor people. And Hoboville in Grapes of Wrath is Bakersfield. And so she went to Bakersfield. Bakersfield and Oildale, which is really where, kind of where my family was on that side, um, was an oil town that had a small kind of ruling class that were oil people and then everybody else were migrant workers and kind of Mexican or Mexican-American workers in the growing fields. And then the oil fields. And my grandmother became a washerwoman for the kind of the ruling class families that wanted someone to take care of their laundry. And then the guy she had been married to followed her out, became a cop in Oildale. They married again. They married three times and divorced three times and he was really a bastard. He was really a mean, mean, mean, mean, mean son-of-a-bitch, and he abused them. What else is new? But, you know. So, I guess he was a charming, Irish-you know- lad, who also did things like burn them with hot irons and you know what I mean? So my mother had a really hard life. This guy was kind of in and out of it...but basically she was raised by her mother, she had two sisters, an older and a younger sister, and they were desperately, desperately poor. And kind of the family story is about how once a week they would get hamburger gravy. My grandmother would buy one pound of hamburger and cook it with tomatoes so that it, it would go further, and they would have that and bread, for their meat. And they had meat once a week. And other than that, they never had meat. I mean, they just had nothing. And they were really, my grandmother on the Irish side did not go to school, I think she maybe had a second-grade education, she could read a little tiny bit, she could write, but pretty sparsely. She could read the TV Guide, that was kind of like, how she could read. And they were pretty desperately poor. Finally my grandmother kicked the guy out and said don’t ever come back. Because the abuse was so bad. But my mother, because of this kind of family, well, you know, for a lot of reasons including this kind of family, um, married for the first time when she was 14. And of course, you know, the other thing about it is, I mean, poor working class families—at any point, but certainly then—the only way to escape was marriage. That was really— girls, you know, working worlds were not very open to anybody— ANDERSON: It’s not like she was told she could go to college and be economically independent. Sophia Smith Collection Voices of Feminism Oral History Project Amber Hollibaugh, interviewed by Kelly Anderson Tape 1 of 10 Page 3 of 166 HOLLIBAUGH: And she never assumed it. She didn’t finish high school. So she figured that the best way out— and she and her mother did not get along. She was the middle daughter, she was argumentative, she was a tomboy, she was really stubborn and moody, I think, and, and furious that they were so poor. And hated it. And so she married a kid that she was in school— and she knew nothing about sex, this is the other thing that was kind of a notorious family story.
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