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12-08-2014 Operation Spicer Transcript Pp. 05111-05149 From E12/2107/0821PUB05111 CREDO/SPICER PUBLIC 12/08/2014 pp 05111-5149 HEARING COPYRIGHT INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION THE HONOURABLE MEGAN LATHAM PUBLIC HEARING OPERATION CREDO AND SPICER Reference: Operation E12/2107/0821 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS AT SYDNEY ON TUESDAY 12 AUGUST, 2014 AT 10.08AM Any person who publishes any part of this transcript in any way and to any person contrary to a Commission direction against publication commits an offence against section 112(2) of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act 1988. This transcript has been prepared in accordance with conventions used in the Supreme Court. 12/08/2014 5111T E12/2107/0821 MR WATSON: I’m sorry for the delay, Commissioner, but Mr Chalmers has been caught up and it wasn’t predictable and it’s appropriate that we wait for him but there are things which we can do in the interim - - - THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR WATSON: - - - including I understand Mr Faulkner may have some questions of Mr Owen - - - 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Oh, right. MR WATSON: - - - and I’ll just make it worse by saying that Mr Owen himself is under time pressures today. THE COMMISSIONER: Right. All right. Well, we’ll see how far we go. Just before we do that though could I just indicate that there’s been some further press reports in relation to Mr Thomson and a quite misleading and incorrect assertion that Mr Thomson has been granted an indemnity. I know that the press don’t often understand the legal technicalities, and I’m not 20 being critical of them for that but it is important that I repeat that this Commission does not have the power to offer anyone an indemnity and the extent of the, the extent of the undertaking that was given to Mr Thomson was that the contents of his statement would not be used against him in civil and criminal proceedings and I add for completeness as I said yesterday that that is exactly the same protection that is afforded to anyone who comes into the witness box and takes the protection of an order under section 38 of the Act. The second thing I just wanted to raise, and this concerns Mr Moses, and I 30 apologise if I was labouring under a confusion yesterday, perhaps Mr Moses can clarify things for me. The suggestion as I understand it that the reference in the SMS to which reference has been made to the “big man” is a reference to Mr O’Farrell - - - MR MOSES: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: - - - in the context of $120,000. MR MOSES: Yes. 40 THE COMMISSIONER: I’m just wondering, Mr Moses, is your positive case that Mr O’Farrell had in some way undertaken to provide funding to the Newcastle seats and that that is the explanation or is – and is that associated with the three seats package or is it an entirely separate source of funding from what would normally be attributable to a key seats package? MR MOSES: Commissioner, it relates to funding in respect of the key seats package. 12/08/2014 5112T E12/2107/0821 MR WATSON: I can’t hear my learned friend here. THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, it relates? MR MOSES: It relates to funding- - - THE COMMISSIONER: Microphone, Mr- - - 10 MR MOSES: It relates- - - THE COMMISSIONER: Microphone, Mr Moses. Sorry. MR MOSES: It’s okay, somebody’s turned it around. It relates to funding in relation to the key seats package. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR MOSES: Yes. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: That was in some way promised- - - MR MOSES: It was an issue. THE COMMISSIONER: - - -promised or, promised or the subject of a conversation with Mr O’Farrell? MR MOSES: There was to be – and this will be the evidence in respect of this matter, that there was to be a discussion to take place in relation to that 30 matter by Mr Gallacher with the Leader and it relates to two issues, it relates to both the key seats package as well as additional funding from Liberal Party Head Office for the Hunter seats. So- - - THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that’s where, that’s where- - - MR MOSES: Yeah. THE COMMISSIONER: - - -I became confused- - - 40 MR MOSES: Yeah. THE COMMISSIONER: - - -because Mr Henskens seemed to be suggesting yesterday that the $120,000 was an entirely separate issue to that that related to the key seats- - - MR MOSES: Yeah. There is some, there is some issue there, potential overlap of some issue. It relates to two, it relates to two issues, whether it 12/08/2014 5113T E12/2107/0821 comes from the key seats package or funding, additional funding from Head Office for Hunter seats. THE COMMISSIONER: And insofar as it relates to the key seats package it’s a reference to the funding stream for the key seats package, not, not the division of the key seats package itself. MR MOSES: I think it was to be, and I think this is what the evidence will demonstrate, it was to be an overall discussion as to how they could best 10 provide the additional funding to the Hunter seats, whether it be streaming in money in order to purchase the package or whether they would be able to share the package. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Thank you for that. MR MOSES: And that’s basically, and that’s basically the position and we think it’s an issue that the Commission could easily clear up if it spoke to the relevant people. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, that’s what we’re trying to do. MR MOSES: Yeah, thank you. THE COMMISSIONER: But I was at a loss to understand exactly what the proposition was in that respect. MR MOSES: Quite. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. 30 MR MOSES: But in terms of the relevant people, the relevant people would be to ascertain from Liberal Party Headquarters as to those types of different fundings and how that occurred and no doubt to confer with those individuals no doubt such as Mr O’Farrell in relation to what those matters involved. So at the end of the day, matters relating to whether calls would be made on issues were a collaborative approach taken by the then Leader of the Opposition together with Head Office. So if those people haven’t been spoken to and we don’t see them on the witness list, then one would hope that they would be spoken to so that people don’t go off half-cocked in 40 respect of the matters. THE COMMISSIONER: I think they are on- - - MR MOSES: Thank you. THE COMMISSIONER: I think they are on a proposed- - - MR MOSES: Thank you. We haven’t seen it. 12/08/2014 5114T E12/2107/0821 MR WATSON: I mean until my learned friend says who those witnesses are I couldn’t tell you one way or the other, but names would be helpful, if they wish us to talk to somebody we will. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well- - - MR WATSON: I draw the attention of my learned friend to- - - 10 MR MOSES: I know. MR WATSON: - - -the practice direction which would direct them to indicate to us witnesses who they wanted called and if my learned friend would name names now we can do something about it. One name is named, Mr O’Farrell, but who else? MR MOSES: What, what we’ve asked for, Commissioner, we’ve done this in writing and we’ll do it again openly, we’ve asked for the list of witnesses who are going to be called by the Commissioner because we’ve been- - - 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, sorry, Mr Moses, I hate to cut you short but - - - MR MOSES: Please don’t, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: But I want to save time, Mr Moses. MR MOSES: Of course, but you’ve raised- - - 30 THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon? MR MOSES: You’ve raised an issue with me and what I’m saying is, what our position is, please tell us who are on your list of witnesses and then we’ll tell you who are the additional witnesses. MR WATSON: It’s not cat and mouse. THE COMMISSIONER: Well, Mr Moses, let me say, as I started to say a moment ago, Mr Watson has just said- - - 40 MR MOSES: Mmm. THE COMMISSIONER: - - -that he doesn’t understand- - - MR MOSES: Mmm. THE COMMISSIONER: - - -them to be on the list of witnesses unless you tell him who they are. They may or may not be on the list of witnesses, 12/08/2014 5115T E12/2107/0821 that’s the problem. We don’t know who you have in mind and if you want those persons called, you can provide the names to Mr Watson, he can confirm that they are on a proposed list or he can add them to the proposed list, but insofar as we have a proposed list and it is just that, Mr Moses. MR MOSES: Mmm. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Moses, you can roll your eyes all you like, I’m trying to- - - 10 MR MOSES: I’m making contact with my friend. THE COMMISSIONER: No, I’m trying to help here, believe it or not. MR MOSES: Mmm. THE COMMISSIONER: Insofar as they are on a proposed list- - - MR MOSES: Mmm. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: - - -it is just that, it is a proposed list, because we might get to a point in the inquiry where we’re content to tender statements rather than call people, so you have to let us know who you have in mind so that we can address that issue.
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