House of Commons Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee DIUS's Departmental Report 2008 Third Report of Session 2008–09 Volume II Oral and written evidence Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 15 December 2008 HC 51-II [Incorporating HC 999-i-iii & 186-i Session 2007–08] Published on 20 January 2009 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £0.00 The Innovation, Universities, Science & Skills Committee The Innovation, Universities, Science & Skills Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills. Current membership Mr Phil Willis (Liberal Democrat, Harrogate and Knaresborough)(Chairman) Dr Roberta Blackman-Woods (Labour, City of Durham) Mr Tim Boswell (Conservative, Daventry) Mr Ian Cawsey (Labour, Brigg & Goole) Mrs Nadine Dorries (Conservative, Mid Bedfordshire) Dr Ian Gibson (Labour, Norwich North) Dr Evan Harris (Liberal Democrat, Oxford West & Abingdon) Dr Brian Iddon (Labour, Bolton South East) Mr Gordon Marsden (Labour, Blackpool South) Dr Bob Spink (UK Independence Party, Castle Point) Ian Stewart (Labour, Eccles) Graham Stringer (Labour, Manchester, Blackley) Dr Desmond Turner (Labour, Brighton Kemptown) Mr Rob Wilson (Conservative, Reading East) Powers The Committee is one of the departmental Select Committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No.152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/ius A list of Reports from the Committee in this Parliament is included at the back of this volume. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are: Sarah Davies (Clerk); Glenn McKee (Second Clerk); Dr Christopher Tyler (Committee Specialist); Dr Joanna Dally (Committee Specialist); Ana Ferreira (Senior Committee Assistant); Camilla Brace (Committee Assistant); Anna Browning (Committee Assistant); and Jonathan Olivier Wright (Committee Support Assistant). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Innovation, Universities, Science & Skills Committee, Committee Office, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general inquiries is: 020 7219 2793; the Committee’s e-mail address is: [email protected]. Witnesses Monday 13 October 2008 Page Ian Watmore, Permanent Secretary, Bill Dickinson, Director General, Finance and Corporate Services, and Zina Etheridge, Director, Strategy and Communications, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills Ev 1 Wednesday 29 October 2008 Rt Hon John Denham MP, Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills and Ian Watmore, Permanent Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills Ev 17 Wednesday 5 November 2008 Professor John Beddington, Government Chief Scientific Adviser, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills Ev 36 Wednesday 16 January 2008 Rt Hon John Denham MP, Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills and Ian Watmore, Permanent Secretary, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills Ev 49 List of written evidence 1 Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills Ev 67, 74, 78, 79, 81, 87, 90, 94, 98, 100, 108, 110 List of Reports from the Committee during the current Parliament The reference number of the Government’s response to each Report is printed in brackets after the HC printing number. Session 2007–08 First Report Re-skilling for recovery: After Leitch, Implementing Skills HC 48-I and Training Policies Second Report The Work of the Committee 2007-08 HC 49 Session 2007–08 First Report UK Centre for Medical Research and Innovation HC 185 (HC 459) Second Report The work and operation of the Copyright Tribunal HC 245 (HC 637) Third Report Withdrawal of funding for equivalent or lower level HC 187–I (HC 638) qualifications (ELQs) Fourth Report Science Budget Allocations HC 215 (HC 639) Fifth Report Renewable electricity-generation technologies HC 216–I (HC 1063) Sixth Report Biosecurity in UK research laboratories HC 360–I (HC 1111) Seventh Report Pre-legislative Scrutiny of the Draft Apprenticeships Bill HC 1062-I First Special Report The Funding of Science and Discovery Centres: HC 214 Government Response to the Eleventh Report from the Science and Technology Committee, Session 2006–07 Second Special Report The Last Report: Government Response to the Thirteenth HC 244 Report from the Science and Technology Committee, Session 2006–07 Fourth Special Report Investigating the Oceans: Government Response to the HC 506 Science and Technology Committee’s Tenth Report of [incorporating HC Session 2006–07 469–i] Processed: 14-01-2009 18:26:54 Page Layout: COENEW [SO] PPSysB Job: 416008 Unit: PAG1 Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Committee on Monday 13 October 2008 Members present Mr Phil Willis, in the Chair Dr Brian Iddon Graham Stringer Mr Gordon Marsden Mr Rob Wilson Witnesses: Ian Watmore, Permanent Secretary, Bill Dickinson, Director General, Finance and Corporate Services, and Zina Etheridge, Director, Strategy and Communications, Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills, gave evidence. Q1 Chairman: Could I welcome everyone to this do not start with a prejudice that says private sector committee meeting of the Innovation, Universities, is good, public sector is bad, or anything of that sort. Science and Skills Committee. This afternoon we are I certainly have not found that from within. In terms having a one-oV session looking at the DIUS of what I have found, I have found incredible Departmental Report. We will return to it when we commitment amongst the staV at a level that many have the Secretary of State in front of us later on this private sector organisations would actually kill for. autumn. Could we welcome today Ian Watmore, the The staV really, really care about what they do for a Permanent Secretary for DIUS. Welcome to you, living and I think that is a fantastic, if I can use that Ian. Bill Dickinson, the Director General for the word, asset for the management of the Department Finance and Corporate Services at DIUS. Welcome to tap into, and I am very proud of all of them. The to you, Bill. We have not met before but you are very second thing is what has been built up over quite a welcome to this kind and generous Committee. And long period has been very strong accountability in a Zina Etheridge, the Director of Strategy and sort of vertical sense from the frontline to the Communications at DIUS. You are very, very minister and the Department in terms of particular welcome too, Zina. I wonder if I could start by aspects of policy delivery. We are quite clear when asking you, Mr Watmore and Mr Dickinson, both our ministers decide something how we flow it of you are not normal mandarins, if I might say, you through to the frontline. I think the challenge for the have come from the private sector, from Accenture public sector generally going forward, and it is one and KPMG. I just wonder if I could ask you both, that we are trying to address in our Department, is what are the diVerences between a private sector how to deliver across those accountabilities because approach and a Civil Service approach to policy these days the problems that society face are so much delivery? What are the advantages of the Civil bigger than any one team or one department can Service approach or what would be the advantages deal with on their own. That is something that we are if you were coming from your private sector all reflecting upon in Whitehall, how we make all of backgrounds? the parts add up to the very significant demands that Mr Watmore: Chairman, thank you. I think I should were placed upon us in the last Comprehensive distinguish that I actually left the private sector to Spending Review. join the Civil Service, whereas Bill is on secondment for a year with us and will return to KPMG in the Q3 Chairman: Okay. Bill, would you share much summer of next year. That is just to make that of that? clarification. Mr Dickinson: Yes, I do. One of the things that also struck me when I joined the Department was the Q2 Chairman: Okay. dedication and the commitment of colleagues to the V Mr Watmore: I was asked quite early on in my Civil agenda of the Department. The key di erence I Service career to name some of the diVerences observe from the finance perspective is that policy between public and private, and I started oV by outcomes that the Department is working towards mentioning the bureaucracy, which I said is much achieving are the outcomes themselves, whereas worse in a Sarbanes-Oxley corporate than it is in the from a private sector perspective often finance is public sector these days. I said that slightly for light- there in terms of what profitability can we drive. hearted eVect, but actually because I believe the Civil Finance is there in the public sector capacity as an Service in particular has moved very rapidly from enabler rather than as an outcome of its own. I think V the stereotypes that are portrayed often in the media that is the single largest di erence that I observe. I to one that really can be very nimble when it needs would echo all of Ian’s comments as well. to be. I think we have probably seen good evidence of that from colleagues elsewhere in the Civil Service Q4 Chairman: Reading through the Annual Report, in the last week or ten days who have been it does not read like another Departmental Report.