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MAINE STATE LEGISLATURE The following document is provided by the LAW AND LEGISLATIVE DIGITAL LIBRARY at the Maine State Law and Legislative Reference Library http://legislature.maine.gov/lawlib Reproduced from scanned originals with text recognition applied (searchable text may contain some errors and/or omissions) LEGISLATIVE RECORD OF THE One Hundred And Sixteenth Legislature OF THE State Of Maine VOLUME II FIRST REGULAR SESSION House of Representatives May 17, 1993 to July 14, 1993 LEGISLATIVE RECORD - HOUSE, HAY 18, 1993 Faircloth, Farnum, farren, foss, Greenlaw, Gwadosky, the way, is from the federalist Papers #63, page 384. Heino, Hillock, Hoglund, Joy, Kerr, Kneeland, Kutasi, There is recorded a conversation between George Lemont, Libby Jack, Li ndah 1, Lipman, Look, Mi chae 1 , Washington and Thomas Jefferson on bicameralism I Mitchell, E.; Nash, Nickerson, Norton, Ott, thought you might find interesting and maybe Pendexter, Pendleton, Plourde, Plowman, Pouliot, amusi ng. They were dri nki ng coffee and Washi ngton Reed, G.; Robichaud, Simonds, Simoneau, Small, Spear, noti ci ng that Jefferson poured hi s coffee from hi s Stevens, A.; Taylor, Thompson, True, Whitcomb, Young, cup to his saucer asked Jefferson why he did so. liTo Zi rnki lton. cool it," was Jefferson's reply. "Just SO," said ABSENT - Beam, fitzpatrick, Kilke11y, Marsh, Washington, "we will pour legislation into the Melendy, Richardson, Ruh1in, Rydell, Tardy. Senatorial saucer to cool it." Yes, 83; No, 59; Absent, 9; Paired, 0; Chief Justice Earl Warren in 1964 wrote, "A prime Excused, O. reason for bicameralism is to ensure mature and 83 having voted in the affirmative and 59 in the de li berate cons i derat i on of and to prevent negative with 9 being absent, the Majority "Ought Not preci pitate action on proposed 1egi slat ion. II Argui ng to Pass" Report was accepted. Sent up for for a two House legislature, our second President, concurrence. John Adams, said, "A single assembly is liable to all the vices, follies and frailties of an individual, subject to fits of humor, starts of passion, flights of enthusiasm, partialities of prejudice and, The Chair laid before the House the second tabled consequently, a producer of hasty resul ts and absurd and today assigned matter: judgment. II And, in hi s connentari es on the Const i tut i on of HOUSE DIVIDED REPORT - Majority (7) -ought Not the United States many years ago, Supreme Court to Pass· - Minority (6) ·Ought to Pass· as amended Justice Story wrote this about the bicameral by Conni ttee Amendment "A" (H-277) - Conni ttee on legislature, "It has become a great check upon undue, State and Local Gove.--ent on RESOLUTION, Propos i ng hasty, and even oppressive legislation." an Amendment to the Constitution of Maine to Create a Yes, in fact there are others in the House who Unicameral Legislature (H.P. 768) (L.D. 1035) follow their history as well as some of those who TABLED - May 17, 1993 by Representative JOSEPH of will be speaking to you following myself. Waterville. Let me ,-espond to a few of the connents that were PENDING - Motion of same Representative to accept the made at othl!r times and other newspapers and connents Minority ·Ought to Pass· as amended Report. that are goil ng to be made today and in the 1 i terature you have held streaming on our desks over the last The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the several days_ Representative from Westbrook, Representative O'Gara. In regard to cost savings, salary and expense Representative O'GARA: Mr. Speaker, Men and savi ngs that occur are but a small percentage of the Women of the House: Whether a legislature should total biennial budget. In addition, such a move may have one House or two has been debated longer then end up costing taxpayers more money if ill-considered the existence of the United States and yet after all legislation is a result of doing away with a second that time, only one of the 50 states has chosen a one House. I would tell you about the words that I have House legislature. heard that there is concrete, definite, proven cost Before I go much further, one of the documents savings of $4.5 million. Respectfully to those who that I have been putting together over the last two have made those statements and will make those years since this came up in the last session is from statements to you today, I, for one, am goi ng to an article from Nebraska itself and a connent by the challenge them to show lie where those numbers are. I son of the fi rst Cl erk of the House in the fi rst spent a 1 ittle better than two hours while I was in Unicameral system. I thought you might be interested Nebraska a few years ago with one of the Senators in to know the circumstances under which this bill Nebraska. I can tell you that while they heard those finally passed in 1934 after years and years and same arguments for many years about cost savi ngs - years of debate. Connenting on the fateful 1934 by the way, I will say this now and I will say it to election, Warner (this is Jerome Warner whose father you later, everything that I am saying to you now, I was Charles Warner) notes that there were two other have documented from the Nebraska Legi slative staff, proposals on the ballot with this initiative. One from NCSL and from newspaper articles that I have had was to allow pari-mutuel horse racing and another to sent to me from Nebraska i tsel f by a professor of repeal prohibition. The advertising, the heavy history at the University of Nebraska, all of these advertising, was to vote yes on all three. And, Mr. are documented, I wi 11 be aski ng those who are goi ng Warner says that there are those who thi nk that lIay to be telling you that there is $4.5 million to show have been a factor. I thought you might be us where that is COiling from. interested in the ci rcumstances under whi ch the bi 11 Let me tell you about in Nebraska, they had those finally passed, not all by itself. same arguments given to them. In fact, in this day The name of James Madi son has been invoked as in 1994 as we speak, the cost of the 1egi s 1ature in having been a strong supporter of the unicameral Nebraska is a major (not a minor, not a now and then system in a recent newspaper article by one of our idea) it is a major concern, not only to the Nebraska members. In fact, in his federalist papers, James legislature itself, but to the people of Nebraska and Madison pointed out that one or the other of the two people who are following it. Cost savings initially Houses of a bicameral system would slow down the may be there but what happens is that it grows. The legislative process and allow reason to prevail. In Senator I spent two and a half hours with, his truth and in fact, while Madison was as willing to pi cture is .j n the book I have here. He is sti 11 a compromise as others, a unicameral system was not in Senator and he can be contacted at any time. While fact the great thought of James Madi son. That, by he personally likes the system, I spent two hours in H-766 LEGISLATIVE RECORD - HOUSE, HAY 18, 1993 his three room suite of offices -- when it passed - early in the session rather than later on. the fi rst one took offi ce I thi nk about three years Unicameral ism is Canada -- I really find that 1ater, they started out wi th a room and a cl erk or kind of interesting that we are using Canada and city secretary, shared much 1i ke we have here, not qui te governments -- what the heck does ci ty government as bad as we have here, but pretty close. Now, each have to do wi th what we are tal ki ng about here, and Senator has a secretary, a clerk, a legal counsel, who cares about Canada? Isn't it interesting that we each Senator, ladies and gentlemen of the House, ignore the health program -- there are those who indisputable, I have it. And, if you are a chairman think the health programs they have in Canada are of a committee and they have between 15 and 18 worth 1ooki ng at but we choose to ignore that but committees, you are then entitled to an additional here we decide that we wanted to talk about Canada. clerk and/or secretary. In Canada, the legislative districts range from Be very careful as you consider that wonderful 23,000 up to 69,000 people. I wonder what ki nd of number of $4.5 million as a savings. representation those constituents get? Visibility -- with Nebraska, the only example Representation, one of the Representatives from that there is out there, there is no hard evidence to Augusta claims that a single large body means that show you or to prove to me or anybody else that each legislator will represent fewer people. Now, it legislation or legislators will be either more may be that he was comparing (and probably is) the visible or more responsible in one House than in two. smaller legislature. 99 to this one.