Private Motor Insurance
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1 This transcript is confidential and may contain information that is protected by Part 9 of the Enterprise Act 2002. Do not publish 2 or disclose its contents without the permission of the Competition Commission. 3 4 COMPETITION COMMISSION 5 PRIVATE MOTOR INSURANCE MARKET INVESTIGATION 6 7 Notes of a hearing with DLG, NFU Mutual, Admiral, esure and AXA 8 held at the Competition Commission, Southampton Row, London on 9 Tuesday, 16 July 2013 10 11 PRESENT: 12 13 FOR THE COMPETITION COMMISSION 14 Alasdair Smith - Chairman 15 Stephen Oram - Member 16 Anthony Stern - Member 17 Robin Aaronson - Member 18 19 FOR THE STAFF 20 Andrew Wright - Inquiry Director 21 Tony Curzon Price - CC Economist 22 23 FOR THE PRIVATE MOTOR INSURANCE COMPANIES 24 Tom Woolgrove - MD Personal Lines, Direct Line Group 25 Steve Maddock - MD Claims, Direct Line Group 26 Emma Hopkinson - Senior Legal Counsel, Competition & Anti 27 Bribery, Group Legal, Direct Line Group 28 Mark Friend - Partner, Allen & Overy 29 Reinder Van Dijk - Associate Director, Oxera 30 David Stevens - Chief Operating Officer, Admiral 31 Geraint Jones - Deputy CFO, Admiral 32 Lorna Connelly - Head of Claims, Admiral 33 Claire Beer - Reinsurance Manager for Claims, Admiral 34 Ian Sinho - Head of Technical Claims, AXA Insurance - 35 Direct & Partnerships 36 Gareth Howell - Product Director, AXA Insurance - Direct & 37 Partnerships 38 Philip Bradley - Executive Director, AXA Ireland 39 Claire Fletcher - Trainee Solicitor, AXA UK plc 40 Alistair Mourdaunt - Partner, Clifford Chance 41 Gordon Hannah - Chief Operating Officer, esure 42 Bob Matwiejczyk - Regional Claims Manager, esure 43 Graham Roberts - National Technical Services Manager/Regional 44 Manager, esure 45 Philippe Chappatte - Partner, Slaughter and May 46 Christopher Graf - Associate, Slaughter and May 47 Jeremy Charles Diston - Chief UW Manager, NFUM 48 Matthew Leonard Scott - Chief Claims Manager, NFUM 49 James Damian Creechan - Company Secretary and General Counsel, 50 NFUM 51 Rosemary Sara Choueka - Partner, Lawrence Graham 52 53 Digital Transcription by WordWave International Limited 1 (a Merrill Corporation Company) 2 8th Floor 165 Fleet Street London EC4A 2DY 3 Tel No: 020 7421 4043 Fax No: 020 740401424 4 Email: [email protected] 5 6 2 1 THE CHAIRMAN: Good morning. Thank you all very much for taking the time to 2 come here to help us with this market investigation. 3 I want to start with introductions. Let us just do introductions round the central 4 table. If at any point in the meeting, as I hope you will, those of you round the 5 periphery are joining in the discussion, I would be grateful if you would then 6 introduce yourselves for the transcript writer. 7 I am Alasdair Smith. I am a Deputy Chair of the Competition Commission and 8 I am Chair of the group conducting this investigation. 9 Q. (Mr Oram) Steve Oram, panel member. 10 Q. (Mr Wright) I am Andrew Wright, the Inquiry Director. 11 Q. (Mr Stern) I am Anthony Stern. I am a panel member. 12 Q. (Mr Aaronson) Robin Aaronson, panel member. 13 A. (Mr Diston) I am Jeremy Diston, Chief Underwriting Manager of NFU Mutual. 14 A. (Mr Scott) Matthew Scott, Chief Claims Manager of NFU Mutual. 15 A. (Mr Howell) Gareth Howell, the Commercial and Product Director of AXA. 16 A. (Mr Sinho) Ian Sinho, Technical Claims Director at AXA. 17 A. (Mr Chappatte) Philippe Chappatte, Slaughter and May, acting for esure . 18 A. (Mr Hannah) Gordon Hannah, COO for esure . 19 A. (Mr Maddock) Steve Maddock, Managing Director for Claims, Direct Line 20 Group. 21 A. (Mr Woolgrove) Tom Woolgrove. I am the Managing Director of UK Personal 22 Lines, including motor insurance. 23 A. (Mr Stevens) David Stevens, Chief Operating Officer for Admiral. 24 A. (Ms Connelly) Lorna Connelly, Head of Claims, Admiral. 25 THE CHAIRMAN: Thanks. I have referred to the fact that we are taking a transcript 3 1 of this meeting. Okay. Let me say a few things by way of introduction before 2 we get underway. As you are aware, today's meeting is structured as a joint 3 hearing. Given the number of parties affected by this market investigation, we 4 thought that this was the most practical way of conducting consultations at 5 this stage. 6 We are mindful of the constraints of a joint hearing. We have been mindful of 7 that in setting the questions that we want to discuss today, but I want to 8 remind all of you at the start that it is your responsibility to ensure that you do 9 not provide information in this discussion that it would be inappropriate for you 10 to discuss in front of your competitors in a forum like this. 11 If you do want to provide confidential information on views on any of the 12 issues which we discuss today, then we would be very happy indeed to 13 receive individual communications from you on these issues. 14 I am not going to take you through our rules and procedures of hearings, as 15 we have sent you advice on that in writing. As I have already referred to, we 16 are taking a transcript of this hearing. We will send a copy of the transcript to 17 you, I hope, within the next week, and we would ask you to check the 18 transcript for any obvious errors, either in the transcription or slips in what was 19 said. If, on reflection, there are substantial corrections that you want to make 20 to anything said today or issues on which you want to enlarge, then it would 21 be helpful if you do that in a separate letter rather than as an amendment to 22 the transcript. 23 We normally provide summaries of hearings like this on our website, but for 24 these joint hearings we have decided that the most appropriate way of letting 25 everyone know what is going on is simply to publish a transcript of the 4 1 hearings, which we will do on the website. So when you get the copy of the 2 draft transcript, we would be grateful if you would check it just in case anyone 3 has said anything that is confidential and should not be published in the 4 transcript, so that that can be excised before the transcript is published on the 5 website. 6 Normally, I remind people of the legal requirement under the Enterprise Act 7 2002 which is to always to give truthful evidence to the Competition 8 Commission. I feel slightly apologetic about it because reminding people that 9 they are supposed to tell the truth feels not the sort of thing that well brought 10 up people are meant to say to each other. But given the amount of time that I 11 and everyone else in the room has spent hanging on phone lines while being 12 earnestly enjoined to tell the truth in answering the questions about your 13 motor insurance record, this is one occasion which I do not feel particularly 14 apologetic about having to remind you of the importance of telling the truth. 15 On the conduct of hearings, what I am going to do is take us through a series 16 of questions that we have prepared. I will take the lead on all of the 17 questioning, but other members of the panel and members of the staff team 18 will chip in with supplementary questions or follow-ups, as appropriate. 19 Apart from on the introductory questions, where I am keen to have each one 20 of the parties give a brief response, on all of the other areas of questioning I 21 am going to ask one of you to lead off with the responses. Given that we 22 have quite a long agenda to get through, I would be grateful if we did not 23 spend a lot of time agreeing with each other. 24 If you do agree with what has just been said then it is enough to say, I agree 25 with what has just been said, and not spend two/three minutes expanding on 5 1 your agreement with what has already been said. So we will be keen for the 2 follow-ups to questions to expose areas where there are differences of 3 sharing of opinion or where you want to raise further issues that have not 4 been responded to in the first set of questions. So, let us not spend a lot of 5 time on repetition, but if, on at least some of the questions, we do get a bit of 6 interchange between you, we would regard that as a very good thing. 7 The last thing is just to make it clear where we are in this stage of our inquiry. 8 We have published our Annotated Issues Statement which summarises where 9 we are. We are about to publish a series of working papers. We are 10 unambiguously still at the stage of developing our own understanding of how 11 this complex market works. We have not arrived at any views on the legal 12 question which we are asked, in a market investigation, to decide on, and 13 therefore we have not started thinking about the hypothetical question of: If 14 we do find that there are issues in the way this market operates, what should 15 be done? We are still very much at the finding out stage, so please do not 16 read anything into any of the questioning about making inferences about 17 anything we have decided because we have not decided anything yet.