NEW PROSPERITY GOLD COPPER MINE PROJECT
FEDERAL REVIEW PANEL
CANADIAN ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT AGENCY
AGENCE CANADIENNE D'ÉVALUATION ENVIRONMENTALE
HEARING HELD AT
Toosey (Tl'lesqox) Indian Band Office
Toosey, British Columbia
Thursday, August 15, 2013
Volume 17
FEDERAL REVIEW PANEL
Bill Ross
Ron Smyth
George Kupfer
International Reporting Inc.
41-5450 Canotek Road,
Ottawa, Ontario
K1J 9G2
www.irri.net
1-800-899-0006
(ii)
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIERES
PAGE
Opening remarks by Panel Chair 6
Presentation by Taseko 17
Presentation by Cheryl Williston 37
Presentation by Councillor David Stieman 55
Presentation by Georgina Johnny 61
Presentation by Peyel Laceese 63
Presentation by Douglas Johnny 69
Presentation by Violet Tipple 82
Presentation by Quinton Palmantier 85
Presentation by Luke Doxtator, David
Setah and J.P. La Plante 88
Presentation by Chief Francis Laceese 154
Presentation by Michelle Tung & Gord
Sterritt 155
Presentation by Nora Johnny 180
Presentation by Teresa Billy 182
Presentation by Valerie Johnny 183
Presentation By Roseanne Haller 189
Presentation by Natika Johnny 201
Presentation by Stanley Stump 202
Presentation by Stormy Narcisse 215
(iii)
TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIERES
PAGE
Presentation By Chief Francis Laceese 217
Closing Remarks by Taseko 231 4
1 Toosey, British Columbia
2 --- Upon commencing at 10:00 a.m.
3 --- Opening ceremony.
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Good
5 morning, everyone. Welcome to the community
6 hearing session with the Toosey First Nations
7 regarding Taseko Mine's proposed New Prosperity
8 Gold Copper Mine.
9 First, our appreciation to the
10 Toosey within whose traditional territory we are
11 holding this hearing today, and for the warm
12 welcome and opening ceremony that you have given
13 us.
14 At this time, Chief Francis, we
15 have a small gift for yourself and band council,
16 as well as for the elders. If you could
17 distribute them on the Panel's behalf, that would
18 be very nice.
19 --- Gift presentation from the Panel.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I understand
21 Taseko has some gifts as well, Chief Francis.
22 --- Gift presentation from Taseko.
23 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I would now
24 like to introduce the Panel. My name is Bill
25 Ross. This is George Kupfer and this is Ron 5
1 Smyth. The secretariat members are Livain
2 Michaud, Jason Patchell, Joanne Smith, Maryléne
3 Cormier, and Courtney Trevis, all over here. The
4 secretariat are identified by name tags and will
5 be able to assist you with any logistics or
6 process-related questions you might have.
7 At this time I would like to
8 ask Taseko to introduce their representatives.
9 MR. YELLAND: My name is Greg
10 Yelland. To my right is Cheryl Williston. Far
11 end of the table is Brittany Russell. Beside her
12 is Katherine Gizikoff, Scott Jones, and Christy
13 Smith.
14 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
15 Chief Francis, would you like to introduce any of
16 your representatives or councillors if they're
17 here?
18 CHIEF FRANCIS: My name is
19 Francis Laceese, last name, L-A-C-E-E-S-E. Once
20 again just a welcome to Tsilhqot'in territory,
21 Toosey. We call it Tl'esqox.
22 I'd like to introduce a couple
23 of my council that are here -- actually, all three
24 of them are here. This is David Stieman, Georgina
25 Johnny and Violet Tipple. That's our council here 6
1 and, once again, welcome.
2 OPENING REMARKS BY PANEL CHAIR:
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
4 Chief Francis. Before we begin I have a few
5 housekeeping items to go over. The sessions here
6 have started at 10:00 and will end approximately
7 6:00 p.m. to accommodate those who need to travel.
8 In the event of an emergency I
9 will make an announcement as appropriate. In the
10 event of fire we ask everyone to proceed calmly
11 out the nearest door - I know that one works, I'm
12 not sure about that one - and assemble away from
13 the building for safety. Every day I go through
14 this and every day I hope and so far so good, we
15 never have to use these, but I want us to be
16 prepared.
17 In the event of a medical
18 emergency, let one of the secretariat members
19 know. First aid supplies are available through
20 the community hall.
21 My remarks are lengthy,
22 however, it's important at the outset to review
23 the purpose of these hearing sessions, our mandate
24 and the process we will follow today.
25 The purpose of the community 7
1 hearing session is to provide an opportunity for
2 the Panel to receive information from the Tl'esqox
3 First Nation and other members of the community on
4 the potential environmental effects of Taseko's
5 proposal to construct an open pit gold and copper
6 mine in the vicinity of Fish Lake.
7 The hearing is also designed to
8 provide opportunities for Taseko to explain the
9 proposed project and respond to concerns and
10 questions raised by other participants.
11 Our mandate - our terms of
12 reference - we are an independent panel. We are
13 not the Federal Government. We are not the
14 Proponent.
15 We are appointed by the Federal
16 Minister of the Environment to conduct an
17 assessment of the environmental effects of the
18 proposed mine under the Canadian Environmental
19 Assessment Act 2012.
20 We have been given specific
21 terms of reference by the Minister and I'll
22 highlight some of the key features. As set out in
23 our mandate, we have reviewed the information and
24 submissions generated as part of the 2009/2010
25 environmental assessment for the proposed 8
1 Prosperity Mine, including the environmental
2 impact statement and the previous Panel's report.
3 We have read the transcripts from the previous
4 prosperity hearing, and it would be helpful for
5 the Panel to hear your views on the components of
6 the proposed New Prosperity project and your views
7 on the current proposal.
8 We are mandated to provide
9 conclusions on the significance of adverse
10 environmental affects. We are also mandated to
11 provide any recommended mitigation measures and
12 follow up programs to manage environmental effects
13 associated with the proposed project, should it
14 proceed.
15 If, taking into account, the
16 implementation of any mitigation measures, the
17 proposed project is likely to cause significant
18 adverse environmental affects, we may include in
19 our report a summary of information received that
20 would be relevant - or may be relevant - to a
21 determination by the Government of Canada with
22 respect to the justifiability of such effects.
23 With respect to First Nations,
24 the Panel shall accept and review information on
25 the nature and scope of Aboriginal rights and 9
1 title - potential or established - in the project
2 area and the potential adverse impacts and
3 potential infringement on those rights.
4 The Panel shall also review
5 information from the Prosperity Review for these
6 subjects. The Panel must summarize this
7 information in it's report.
8 The Panel may also recommend
9 mitigation measures regarding adverse
10 environmental affects of the project that could
11 adversely impact or infringe Aboriginal rights and
12 title.
13 The Panel has no mandate to
14 make any determinations with respect to the
15 validity or strength of asserted Aboriginal rights
16 or title claims, with respect to scope of Canada's
17 duty to consult and accommodate Aboriginal groups,
18 and we have no mandate to make any determinations
19 whether Canada has met it's duty to consult or
20 accommodate.
21 Following the completion of our
22 assessment we will prepare a report for the
23 Minister of the Environment. This report will be
24 submitted within 70 days of the close of this
25 public hearing and will be made available to the 10
1 public by the Minister of the Environment.
2 Your participation and
3 involvement is very important to us and we trust
4 it is also helpful to both Taseko and other
5 participants.
6 We recognize that the
7 conclusions and recommendations that we will
8 provide to the Government of Canada on this matter
9 will have an impact on the Tsilhqot'in and the
10 surrounding communities.
11 We want to assure you that we
12 take the responsibility given to us to assess the
13 potential environmental effects of this proposed
14 project very seriously. We ask everyone here to
15 do the same and that you conduct yourself in a
16 manner that is respectful of the important
17 responsibility we have been given.
18 Everyone at this hearing should
19 be courteous and respectful when asking questions
20 or making presentations. The use of demeaning
21 language is not appropriate in this type of forum.
22 Any participants who are disrespectful or rude in
23 their questioning of participants or in their
24 remarks to the Panel won't be allowed to ask
25 further questions or make further comments. 11
1 Our role as the Panel during
2 the public hearing is to remain independent and
3 neutral with respect to all participants before
4 us. We will not engage in private discussion on
5 these matters with anyone involved in these
6 proceedings outside of each other and our
7 secretariat.
8 We ask that you not attempt to
9 discuss the proposed project or any of the hearing
10 matters with us outside of the hearing.
11 We do apologize if we appear
12 detached or un-approachable during the hearing.
13 We need to ensure that our behaviour doesn't give
14 anyone any reason to be concerned regarding our
15 impartiality.
16 Our conclusions will be in the
17 report that will be issued after the close of this
18 hearing. We're holding the hearing with four
19 different types of hearing sessions. The general
20 session ended July 25th. The topic-specific
21 sessions ended August the 1st.
22 Today is the continuation of
23 the community sessions which are scheduled to end
24 August 21st. The Panel is also holding two site
25 visits as part of the community sessions, one took 12
1 place last Friday, August the 9th at Fish Lake.
2 The other - and this is a change - the other will
3 be held on Monday, August the 19th at Little Dog
4 Creek. I believe that has been posted. We've
5 sent it for posting now. Details of the August
6 19th visit is available from our secretariat or on
7 line. Details will be announced.
8 We have also received a request
9 from Esketemc to extend that site visit a little
10 longer than it previously was scheduled and I
11 believe that has been sent for posting as well.
12 You see, sometimes my opening remarks actually
13 have new information.
14 Finally, closing remarks are
15 scheduled to be held in Williams Lake on August
16 the 23rd.
17 A few of the important
18 procedures. Because this hearing is not
19 quasi-judicial, people presenting to the Panel are
20 not required to give evidence under oath or
21 affirmation, but everyone is expected to speak
22 honestly.
23 All documents filed in this
24 proceeding must be placed on the public record
25 unless otherwise ordered by the Panel as a result 13
1 of a request for confidentiality. Copies of the
2 written submissions received by the Panel for the
3 community sessions are currently available on the
4 public registry.
5 All participants should note
6 transcripts are being kept through the services of
7 our Court Reporter, and with my glasses off I can
8 still tell it's Courtney over there.
9 When you come forward to speak
10 we ask you identify yourself and spell your name
11 for the Court Reporter. By now she knows my last
12 name, so I don't spell R-O-S-S. But, if in doubt,
13 spell it so she can get it right and we'll make
14 sure the record accurately reflects who was
15 speaking.
16 Please remember to speak slowly
17 and clearly.
18 For those that don't speak
19 English, we have an interpreter back there, Ms.
20 Smith this morning. We have an interpreter with
21 us who will be able to interpret what is being
22 said into Tsilhqot'in and translate any questions
23 or comments you may have from Tsilhqot'in into
24 English.
25 The transcript for each day of 14
1 the public hearing will be available on the
2 registry as soon as possible. Try to make your
3 cell phone not talk to us.
4 If you wish to film, seek
5 permission from the Panel Chair and the community
6 through our secretariat.
7 Presentations. The agenda, as
8 we will receive it, will be available from our
9 secretariat. If you wish to make a presentation
10 and have not yet registered, speak with the
11 secretariat and we'll try to accommodate you.
12 We ask participants to show
13 some flexibility because we're not entirely sure
14 what time will be necessary.
15 We plan to take a 15 minute
16 break this morning and sit until 12:00, 12:30,
17 depending on when lunch is available. We'll have
18 approximately a one hour break for lunch and then
19 in the afternoon with a break we will go until
20 6:00 p.m.
21 To begin we will first ask
22 Taseko to come forward and give a brief
23 presentation regarding it's proposed project, a
24 summary of it's findings and Taseko's assessment
25 of the potential environmental effects of the 15
1 mine.
2 Taseko and it's representatives
3 will be available for questioning by the
4 Tsilhqot'in National Government, the Chief and
5 Council and others, and the Panel last.
6 Following Taseko, the
7 Tsilhqot'in National Government, the Tl'esqox
8 Chief and Council and other parties will make
9 presentations. We will try to accommodate those.
10 Every speaker will be subject to questioning after
11 the presentation.
12 Once we have heard from all the
13 participants we will provide an opportunity for
14 Taseko to respond to any of the information
15 presented.
16 We will then ask Chief Francis
17 to close the hearing for the day with a closing
18 ceremony. While this is the general order of
19 events, elders are able to express their views at
20 any time during the community sessions.
21 Elders who wish to speak are
22 asked to come forward to the microphone when you
23 want to express your views so I know when you want
24 to speak.
25 To prove that occasionally my 16
1 opening remarks have something new, I have two
2 observations -- sorry, I guess I have one
3 additional piece of information. We have received
4 a confidentiality request from Esketemc and it has
5 been submitted for posting and we will be seeking
6 your guidance on that before making a ruling
7 shortly.
8 If there are any questions, I
9 would happily entertain them.
10 MR. JONES: I guess it's a
11 question. I realize it's a small space and it
12 feels a bit cozy. I just wondered whether we
13 couldn't do something with this table to create
14 more space.
15 It feels like we've limited the
16 ability of our hosts to be in here. I just -- is
17 there something we could do that's a bit
18 different.
19 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I would be
20 entirely open. I've never been good at designing
21 spaces. We could take 5 or 10 minutes and make
22 some adjustments. We want to be sure that the
23 spaghetti on the floor is still functioning and
24 not damaged. But I am entirely open to that. Do
25 we have a good plan that would make more space? 17
1 MR. JONES: Our thought was if
2 we could put the projector on the table and
3 eliminate the pedestal stuff and create some space
4 back here.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Would that
6 work for you folks? Let's do that.
7 --- Recess taken at 10:29 a.m.
8 --- Upon resuming at 10:34 a.m.
9 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: First, Mr.
10 Jones, thank you for that brilliant suggestion.
11 Go right ahead.
12 PRESENTATION BY TASEKO:
13 MR. YELLAND: Thank you, Mr.
14 Chairman. Good morning everyone. My name is Greg
15 Yelland, and I'm the chief mining engineer at
16 Taseko. I'd like to thank Chief Francis and his
17 community for inviting us and welcoming us here
18 today.
19 This presentation is going to
20 go very quickly and I've got a lot of information
21 to convey in a short period of time. So I'd
22 encourage everyone here to get up and ask
23 questions or meet with us at the breaks if they
24 want further details explained.
25 This opening slide shows the 18
1 locations of the major meadow mines in British
2 Columbia that are closed or operating or under
3 construction. The message we want to convey here
4 is mining in B.C. is not something new. Some of
5 the most technologically-advanced techniques have
6 been pioneered and are in use in British Columbia.
7 Taseko has a wealth of knowledge in these
8 techniques.
9 A little history here. January
10 2010 the Provincial Ministers granted an EA
11 certificate to us, but November 2nd, 2010 the
12 Federal Minister declined our approval. They
13 invited Taseko to submit a project proposal that
14 includes addressing the factors considered by the
15 Panel.
16 In 2010 the Panel's findings
17 were such they found no significant adverse
18 affects on the majority of the environmental
19 components but did find significant adverse
20 environmental affects on fish and fish habitat,
21 navigation, current use of lands and resources for
22 traditional purposes by First Nations, on cultural
23 heritage, on certain potential or established
24 Aboriginal rights and title and on cumulative
25 effects on grizzly bears. 19
1 The door was left open to
2 Taseko to carry on working on the project and see
3 if these could be mitigated. What Taseko did to
4 accommodate these shortcoming's was to move the
5 TSF two and a half kilometres up the valley from
6 Fish Lake.
7 This is Fish Lake here. This
8 is where the proposed pit would be, and we've
9 moved the TSF up the valley from the lake. This
10 is Taseko River down here.
11 So what this has addressed is
12 now Fish Lake and all the upstream spawning
13 habitat has been preserved. We've proposed other
14 fish mitigation in the project. We've saved
15 navigation on Fish Lake. Archeological and other
16 sites are maintained and undisturbed. We are
17 accommodating Aboriginal rights.
18 We want the opportunity to
19 develop other community-specific accommodation and
20 we are proposing a grizzly bear mitigation plan.
21 There's still some key
22 questions out there and those relate mostly to the
23 ground water. The four main questions that still
24 remain are ground water from the TSF going from
25 the TSF to Fish Lake, from Fish Lake into the New 20
1 Prosperity pit and from the pit into the Taseko
2 River, or from the TSF all the way to the Taseko
3 River.
4 I want to show you how we've
5 handled these. This blue area is the watershed of
6 the Fish Creek area. We've enclosed all of our
7 infrastructure within that one watershed. The
8 storage facility is here. The pit is here.
9 Our stockpiles are in this area
10 and the plant site is here. So potentially acid
11 generating rock from the mine will be trucked up
12 to the tailings storage facility and stored under
13 water. This stops any acid from being generated.
14 Secondly, the dam is designed
15 to contain most of the contact water in the
16 watershed and water that does seep through will be
17 collected in ponds and pumped back into the TSF.
18 The mine is far enough away from the lake so the
19 lake will not drain. I'll talk about that a bit
20 more.
21 And, fourthly, Taseko River is
22 approximately three kilometres away from the pit
23 so that when it does finally fill with water the
24 ground water reaching the river will be minimal.
25 I wanted to show this slide of 21
1 Diavik Mine in the Northwest Territories to
2 illustrate mining can take place close to a lake.
3 Now I just want to talk about
4 the contact water and the ground water in the
5 area. This is a picture of a trout caught in the
6 TSF at Gibraltar. The TSF at Gibraltar is stocked
7 with trout so we can monitor the fish health and
8 correlate it to the water quality. We are finding
9 the fish in that facility are thriving. They are
10 clean and healthy.
11 This is just a diagram of the
12 tailings storage facility. This is a schematic of
13 the dam here. This area here is where the
14 tailings sand could be deposited and this is the
15 water collected in behind that dam.
16 The dam is designed to seep,
17 some through the basin, some through the dam, and
18 the majority goes underneath the dam and gets
19 collected in a seepage collection system.
20 Our modelling shows that
21 approximately 70 percent of all that water that
22 seeps through the embankment is collected and
23 re-circulated back into the pond.
24 This is a picture of the
25 tailings storage facility at Mt. Milligan being 22
1 constructed. You can see fine core material being
2 placed here and compacted so that water doesn't
3 flow through that area. This is coarser material
4 that would be up against the water behind the dam
5 and this allows water to filter through and be
6 directed toward the seepage pond.
7 The guys up top here are doing
8 compaction testing to make sure the material is
9 being placed and compacted to the correct density.
10 This is the picture of the seepage pond at
11 Gibraltar. This is the dam in the ground here.
12 Water gets directed from behind the dam into the
13 ponds, it's collected here and then this is the
14 pump system that we envision. It would look like
15 this at New Prosperity, that pumps this water back
16 into the TSF.
17 Talking about the risk of the
18 lake flowing into the pit. This is the pit over
19 here. This is the Fish Lake. We've designed the
20 pit wall originally to be at 43 degrees and right
21 now the closest point that that gets to the Fish
22 Lake is 300 metres away. If we had to lay the
23 wall back 38 degrees it would be approximately 200
24 metres away from the pit, however, we have the
25 option of moving that pit wall in if it does get 23
1 any closer.
2 Just another picture of Island
3 Valley Copper Mine to illustrate this kind of
4 system can work. This is the ocean here. You can
5 see the pit is completely dry. And this pit is
6 actually 1,100 feet below sea level.
7 What happens in a mine in order
8 to keep the pit dry is we install
9 de-pressurization wells as the pit progresses.
10 Here is the pit on the right. Here is Fish Lake
11 over here.
12 We pump these wells in order to
13 keep this area dry of water, so there's no water
14 in the ground in this area and all the ground
15 water is held back in this area here.
16 We've been talking about ground
17 water control. Now what I'd like to do is talk
18 about fish and fish habitat.
19 Once again, the slide shows the
20 watershed in the Fish Creek drainage. In 2010
21 there was no significant adverse affects found
22 outside of this watershed.
23 This project has changed
24 nothing outside of the watershed so we're finding
25 exactly the same conclusions. Within the 24
1 watershed we've got Lower Fish Creek in this area,
2 Middle Fish Creek in this area, and that contains
3 spawning habitat that will be lost.
4 We have Upper Fish Creek and we
5 are preserving all the spawning habitat in this
6 area. This is Lower Fish Creek. You see falls in
7 this area. This precludes fish from the Taseko
8 River coming up into the Fish Creek drainage.
9 This is a picture of Middle Fish Creek and this is
10 the area where we will be losing the spawning
11 habitat.
12 This is Upper Fish Creek and
13 this is the area that we will be preserving and
14 enhancing to save the fish spawning habitat.
15 What is the result of this? At
16 the moment we've got a lake that is at capacity.
17 It's got small fish in it. What this project does
18 is reduces the spawning habitat area. We're going
19 to regulate the stream flow and monitor and manage
20 the fish and fish habitat.
21 Our predicted future condition
22 is that we'll have a stabler but smaller
23 population of trout within the lake with an
24 increase in the size of the fish.
25 Part of our aquatic monitoring 25
1 I'd like to illustrate is that we will be
2 monitoring fish health and population within Fish
3 Lake and the tributaries. We'll be monitoring the
4 pump back wells, monitoring sediment quality in
5 the tributaries and the lake and monitoring dust
6 and water quality, flow, volume and levels
7 throughout the area, including down by Taseko Lake
8 Lodge.
9 We already do this kind of
10 thing at Gibraltar. We monitor the fish size, the
11 weight, it's health. We look for parasites and
12 send tissue samples to a lab for analysis.
13 What we found is that the trout
14 in the Gibraltar tailings storage facility
15 compared to B.C. lakes un-effected by human
16 presence, that the trout in the TSF at Gibraltar
17 are lower in metals than those other lakes.
18 The only metal we found higher
19 in concentration is copper and that makes sense
20 because it is a copper mine.
21 Stepping back to the area
22 outside of the Fish Creek drainage, I want to
23 remind you in 2010 there was no significant effect
24 on water or fish habitat outside Fish Creek.
25 Specifically in 2010 the Panel review concluded no 26
1 significant adverse affects on fish health in the
2 Taseko River.
3 We've made no changes to the
4 watershed outside of Fish Creek so we find the
5 same conclusion. However, in the 2013 submission
6 we've added extra compensation, including the
7 building of off-channel spawning habitat just by
8 Taseko Lake. What we envision that to look like
9 is something like this.
10 We would be building channels
11 20 to 60 feet wide, a depth of three feet, laying
12 logs and other materials in it in order to promote
13 spawning habitat. This is an example of that in
14 the Lower Columbia River in Washington State.
15 Another example is the Ashlu Creek enhancement in
16 British Columbia. You can see trout spawning in
17 this enhancement area.
18 Other compensation elements
19 would be much like this in the Alouet(ph) River in
20 British Columbia. We'd be doing upgrades to
21 existing diversion structures. We'd also be doing
22 fish passage restoration. This is a picture of
23 the Puntzi Creek Project. We'd also be doing fish
24 passage restoration at road crossings.
25 I've talked about water now. 27
1 I've talked about fish and fish habitat. Now I
2 want to talk about the terrestrial environment.
3 These are examples of elements taken into account
4 in our new design. What we found is that there
5 was no significant adverse affects on these in the
6 2010 findings.
7 This time around we've
8 introduced a smaller mine footprint so there's
9 less effect. We'd be using the same mitigation as
10 applied before so we find exactly the same
11 conclusions once again. These are examples of
12 some of the birds, amphibians and mammals we
13 studied and incorporated into the mitigation, into
14 our new design to make sure they are not effected.
15 This time around we're going to
16 focus on the grizzly bear and we've incorporated
17 new mitigation specific to the grizzly bear, but
18 we would expect that this mitigation would help
19 other mammals as well.
20 We are proposing to mitigate
21 against road mortality. We would institute
22 education and awareness. We would institute a
23 grizzly bear population monitoring program and
24 also access planning. I'll talk about that a
25 little bit more on the next slide. 28
1 This map depicts the range of
2 the south Tsilhqot'in grizzly bear. This whole
3 area here is where the grizzly bear resides. The
4 green areas are where there are very few roads,
5 however, the yellow area has quite a few more
6 roads in it and this is the area that we would be
7 bringing the transmission line through.
8 This is the mine site here.
9 Here is the Taseko Lake and river. We're
10 proposing, in order to cut down on grizzly and
11 human contact, to close many of the access roads
12 in this area left behind by quadders, hunters and
13 logging companies.
14 This type of mitigation has
15 been carried out at the Cardinal River Coal Mine
16 in Northern Alberta. This is a picture of the
17 reclaimed area around that mine and, through 30
18 years of operation at that mine, not one bear has
19 been killed due to interaction with mine
20 operations.
21 Now I'd like to talk a little
22 about reclamation and closure. Before any mining
23 takes place Taseko would have to submit a closure
24 plan to the B.C. Ministry of Mines. This is just
25 a rendering of what we envision the plan would 29
1 look like with the TSF lake up at the top of the
2 valley, Fish Lake preserved here.
3 The pit lake would fill with
4 water and at the end of the day water would
5 continue to flow through this valley down into the
6 Taseko River. Throughout start up and operation
7 and closure, environmental management plans are
8 implemented. These plans are designed to minimize
9 disturbance, control invasive weeds, protect
10 wildlife and minimize human-wildlife interaction.
11 Examples of areas recently
12 reclaimed around mine sites. This is the Highland
13 Valley Mine. There's grazing here. These three
14 pictures are also on reclaimed land all around
15 closed mine sites.
16 Gibraltar has it's own nursery
17 where trees and plants are grown and stored for
18 final planting on reclaimed rock dumps and
19 portions of the TSF.
20 Final reclamation also includes
21 restoring wetlands and ponds to the original
22 condition. These are pictures of wetland on
23 reclaimed mine sites.
24 Monitoring of the environment
25 takes place through all stages of mining and 30
1 post-closure. This is an example of how we would
2 monitor certain concentrations. I think I'll skip
3 this graph. I think we've mostly all seen this
4 before, in the interests of time.
5 I just want to keep going as
6 quickly as I can today. Examples of items we
7 monitor for. This is water sampling at Gibraltar.
8 These are analyzed in independent labs and the
9 results reported to the government on a regular
10 basis.
11 We also monitor the area for
12 dust. We also monitor the ground water for flow
13 and depth and also for the water quality. Once
14 again, these are monitored on a regular basis and
15 sent to the - the results - to the Ministry of
16 Energy and Mines.
17 Reclamation doesn't take place
18 only when the mine closes. It's an ongoing
19 process that happens throughout the operation.
20 This is an example of that at Gibraltar where the
21 tailings dam face has been covered with top soil,
22 fertilized and seeded to not only restore
23 vegetation but reduce dust emissions.
24 Other mitigation used is the
25 watering of the mine haul roads. Taseko plans to 31
1 use existing disturbance areas as much as possible
2 to minimize the disturbance of untouched land.
3 This is the Gibraltar power line. The power line
4 coming into Prosperity would be much the same size
5 as this one. This is a picture of Fish Lake here
6 up to the right. This is the proposed open pit
7 area, and you can see cut blocks in the background
8 here.
9 This is where we would try and
10 use these cut blocks as much as possible to bring
11 the transmission line into the mine site and
12 minimize the amount of disturbance. Taseko has
13 instituted a number of policies that guide us in
14 everything we do, these include our health and
15 safety policy, our environment policy, our
16 Aboriginal people's policy and commitment to the
17 Cariboo Region.
18 Some of the organizations and
19 charities that Taseko supports in the local
20 communities are shown here.
21 Now I'd like to switch and talk
22 about the human environment a bit. In 2010 the
23 Panel found that there was adverse affects upon
24 navigable water, current use of lands and
25 resources and also Aboriginal rights. To address 32
1 these adverse affects, once again we have reduced
2 the mine development area size. This light green
3 area was the area effected in 2010. This darker
4 green area is now the area being affected in 2012.
5 By doing this we preserve Fish
6 Lake for navigation. The current use of the land
7 is enhanced through a smaller mine footprint and
8 the affect on Aboriginal rights have been reduced
9 through a smaller mine footprint. We've saved
10 navigation on Fish Lake.
11 There will be access for
12 recreation to the lake and this is just an example
13 of that. This is the recreational area at Polley,
14 this is Polley Lake and this is the Polley waste
15 dumps in the background.
16 This is the Bose Lake at the
17 old Bethlehem Mine. This is another example of
18 the Cuisson Lake right to Gibraltar. Grazing will
19 be preserved around the mine. This is an example
20 of that at the Highland Valley Mine.
21 This map shows the Tsilhqot'in
22 framework agreement area in brown out here and the
23 established right area in the darker brown is this
24 area here and just on the edge of that in the
25 green is the new mine disturbance area. 33
1 Our conclusions around
2 Aboriginal interests and the current use of land
3 and resources for traditional purposes. Since
4 less hectares have been disturbed we reduced the
5 impact on wildlife habitat and the area where
6 hunting is restricted.
7 We've increased access to Fish
8 Lake in the vicinity and reclamation plans to
9 target species of interest will be instituted and
10 new fish compensation and habitat compensation
11 plans will be instituted.
12 The human receptors will
13 include Taseko Lake Lodge, the recreation area
14 around Fish Lake and at the camp that's going to
15 be on the mine site, also around Elkin Creek.
16 Taseko will carry out all
17 monitoring and take steps to fix any negative
18 affects to human health.
19 In 2009 an extensive study was
20 carried out. Elders were consulted, members of
21 the TNG and archeologist's walked through this
22 whole Fish Creek watershed. Most of the
23 archeological sites were found around Fish Lake
24 and those are shown in purple. And all of the
25 sites are now being preserved. 34
1 So, concluding on Aboriginal
2 interests and cultural heritage. We're now
3 preserving Fish Lake and the island. The
4 archeological resources are now being preserved.
5 We will institute a cultural heritage protection
6 plan and Little Fish Lake and the cabin site,
7 there will be compensation for the loss of those.
8 Taseko believes that there will
9 be multiple opportunities for First Nations if
10 this mine is constructed. There will be revenue
11 sharing through the government, training and
12 employment opportunities. There will be
13 contracting and capacity building.
14 We believe there will be
15 self-reliance since people will be able to live
16 and work close to home. There will be community
17 enhancement and a long term fund base built up.
18 This slide shows list of the
19 full-time employment opportunities available at
20 the mine. There will be training provided
21 on-the-job. So no need no feel you're not
22 qualified for any of these positions. There's
23 also contracting opportunities.
24 Taseko is committed to ongoing
25 consultation and engagement with First Nations. 35
1 We will be seeking working relationships with
2 First Nations. We want to identify opportunities
3 for mutual benefit, and we want to identify
4 concern and mitigate and accommodate those
5 concerns raised by First Nations.
6 We will continue to engage the
7 youth in the communities that we work in. We will
8 strive to engage the elders of the communities
9 that we also work in. Taseko Mines Ltd. will
10 provide meaningful, well-paid work.
11 Just to close off this
12 presentation, I'd like to point out that this
13 environmental assessment process is just the first
14 step in many towards getting a mine permit.
15 At this stage proof of concept
16 has been proposed. The next step is to move
17 toward permitting and start working on the
18 detailed engineering and design. The following
19 hurdles listed here still have to be obtained.
20 These require the demonstration of the plans we
21 propose will work in reality and not only
22 conceptually.
23 In conclusion, Taseko feels
24 that open pit mining is a modern industry with a
25 strong track record of success in British 36
1 Columbia. The New Prosperity project is a
2 low-risk, high-reward proposal in the best
3 interests of the region, the province and the
4 country. Taseko is a responsive and responsible
5 company committed to providing the right resources
6 and highly-experienced personnel in order to
7 accomplish the project as planned. And I, for
8 one, am proud of this and company and it's track
9 record. We've done what we've been asked to do.
10 We have listened to communities and we've
11 re-designed this project to address the issues
12 raised in 2010.
13 We'll continue to engage and
14 listen to the communities affected by this
15 project.
16 That is the end of my
17 presentation and now I'd like to ask Cheryl
18 Williston to go through her presentation, which is
19 on habitat composition.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Sorry, Chief
21 Francis.
22 CHIEF FRANCIS: I don't know,
23 how long this is going to be. I asked for half an
24 hour for these guys to do a presentation, because
25 we have 20 speakers and some of them, just like 37
1 yesterday, there's a service that the lady passed
2 on in another community and some of them want to
3 get over there.
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I think --
5 is that an urgent matter now or -- I think this
6 presentation will probably be fairly short.
7 CHIEF FRANCIS: I was
8 wondering, half an hour -- if it's 5 minutes,
9 that's fine. Okay. Thank you.
10 PRESENTATION BY CHERYL WILLISTON:
11 CHERYL WILLISTON: My name is
12 Cheryl Williston. I'm an environmental
13 co-ordinator with Taseko. I will keep this quick
14 and short without getting the Court Reporter too
15 mad at me for talking too quickly.
16 I've been working with Taseko
17 for over three years. You've no doubt realized,
18 the Panel, as you've been in our region, that the
19 Cariboo-Chilcotin is unique, in it's people, it's
20 activities and it's landscape and, most
21 importantly, in lifestyle.
22 I'm lucky to say I grew up
23 here. I was born and raised in that ranch
24 lifestyle you've heard people speak about over the
25 last few years. My parents owned a ranch in the 38
1 West Tsilhqot'in near Anaham Lake. I was on horse
2 back before I could walk and that is where I spent
3 much of my childhood. My dad, to this day, is a
4 cowboy. Now in his seventies he still has horses
5 and his time is spent, among other things, caring
6 for them and harvesting from the land.
7 Growing up, the food on our
8 dinner table came from my parent's garden, from
9 the livestock they raised or the wild game that
10 they hunted. I'm proud to have been raised in
11 that lifestyle and respect those who live in it.
12 It takes a lot of hard work and a lot of
13 commitment, and I'm hoping that some of that has
14 ben instilled in me over the years.
15 I graduated from the high
16 school in Williams Lake, went to Kamloops where I
17 achieved my Bachelor's of Science in biology.
18 Post-university I spent a number of years working
19 with both the B.C. Conservation Foundation and the
20 Ministry of Environment on a variety of fish and
21 wildlife projects.
22 In 2009, I was hired by the
23 Ministry of Environment to co-ordinate their
24 review of the Prosperity Project. I worked with
25 many Ministry experts to review and comment on the 39
1 EIS.
2 In early 2010 the review was
3 completed and I was looking for my next project.
4 Taseko had a posting for an environmental
5 co-ordinator. I was lucky enough to get the job.
6 I started working at the Gibraltar Mine site where
7 I spent over a year developing an environmental
8 management system for the site before shifting my
9 focus back to Prosperity.
10 One of the projects that I've
11 been involved in has been the habitat compensation
12 plan. I'll touch on a couple components of it.
13 As everyone is aware, we've
14 drafted a plan to outline commitment to avoiding
15 permanent affects on wild life and wild life
16 habitat. We've started with the developing an
17 implementation plan. This plan will outline how
18 we anticipate engagement with First Nations,
19 government officials, and stakeholders will occur.
20 We want this to occur in order
21 to brainstorm compensation projects. This
22 implementation plan will also outline how projects
23 will be selected and carried out, as well as how
24 we'll monitor and report back on the effectiveness
25 of those project. 40
1 Some examples of projects
2 proposed to-date include the re-building of water
3 controls weirs to stabilize lake levels as well as
4 channel and wetland restoration. These types of
5 projects will enhance habitat for water fowl,
6 migratory birds, moose and bear.
7 While we've started to learn
8 about potential projects around the region we want
9 to ensure all interests are heard. Taseko is
10 willing and committed to engaging with First
11 Nations and local stakeholders to identify
12 potential projects and interests in the area.
13 Once projects are identified
14 we're committed to participating and supporting in
15 working groups to further discuss projects and
16 their implementation.
17 Access along the transmission
18 line has been identified by many as an area of
19 concern. Specific concerns related to increased
20 public access through disturbed areas resulting in
21 impacts to traditional use sites, to vegetation
22 communities and to wild life and wildlife habitat.
23 Similar to the habitat
24 compensation plan that I just discussed, we've
25 also been developing an implementation framework 41
1 for that access management plan. This outlines
2 how we anticipate working with all interested
3 parties to develop an access plan.
4 During the construction of the
5 transmission line there will be potential for
6 roads to be de-commissioned. Engagement with all
7 interested parties will be necessary to identify
8 both where current access exists as well as where
9 access can be better managed, as well as
10 determining the appropriate de-commissioning
11 measures.
12 As we've heard through the
13 technical sessions in Williams Lake, access
14 management can be effective but also a great
15 challenge. There are a variety of measures that
16 can be implemented, from completely re-conturing
17 roads to roll-back where logging slash is
18 distributed across access areas to install
19 barriers such as boulder, ditches or even gates.
20 The effectiveness of these measures will depend on
21 the landscape of the area and will be determined
22 in consult with all interested parties.
23 I anticipate there's also an
24 educational component to this plan where users
25 will need to be educated on how activities are 42
1 impacting the area. This will be a challenging
2 project and we are aware of that fact. I'm
3 optimistic that our team can be successful. We
4 are made up of individuals with varying degrees of
5 experience, from those involved in the development
6 and facilitation of access management plans in
7 other areas of the province to those like myself
8 who have ideas and an enthusiasm for participating
9 in a project and seeing it through to success.
10 This is just a small snippet of
11 the habitat compensation plan and all it's
12 components.
13 If you have any further
14 questions, let me know, and thank you for
15 listening.
16 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
17 Ms. Williston, Mr. Yelland. Any questions for
18 Taseko at this time?
19 MR. NELSON: Thank you. I've
20 been listening from the outer foyer. Thank you
21 for the presentation.
22 I think we've heard a lot about
23 the fact that New Prosperity is based on almost
24 identical to option 2 from the previous review.
25 One of the changes, and maybe the only substantial 43
1 change, is the rock piles and/or storage have been
2 moved from -- originally they were to be north of
3 the pit and they've now been moved west and
4 northwest of the lake.
5 I'm wondering if you could
6 explain the rationale for that change in design
7 between option 2 and New Prosperity?
8 MR. YELLAND: I might refer to
9 Scott Jones here, but I think that we had our rock
10 stockpiles were just to the south of the lake in
11 option 2, and our ore stockpile was fairly close
12 to the same position, but maybe Scott can clarify
13 that.
14 MR. JONES: I think I can
15 answer that. In the alternative assessment in the
16 previous project review, the ore stockpile and the
17 non-PAG stockpile were north of the pit, and those
18 were based on conceptual tailings designs.
19 What we were able to do in this
20 was move them farther south to enable any of the
21 drainage from those stockpiles to be up gradient
22 from the pit. The risk with the previous one was
23 they were up gradient of Middle Fish Creek. Any
24 drainage not captured in the ditches will be
25 captured within the pit. 44
1 MR. NELSON: Is it not true
2 another reason might be in order to expand the pit
3 you would have to move those rock piles and ore
4 storage out of the north portion of the pit to
5 another area?
6 MR. JONES: That wasn't part of
7 our consideration.
8 MR. NELSON: I'd like to draw
9 your attention, and maybe the Panel's attention,
10 to a consideration of this issue during the
11 previous panel hearings in some of the testimony
12 that was given. It might be easiest to hand up a
13 written copy because it's a bit of a complicated
14 statement --
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr. Nelson,
16 this is not the time for you to make a
17 presentation. This is the time for you to ask
18 questions.
19 MR. NELSON: I appreciate that.
20 It is a question. I think it's important, because
21 the issue of expansion came up yesterday. There
22 are statements on the record from the previous
23 review that the placement of the ore storage to
24 the north of the pit would be inconsistent with
25 expanding the mine. 45
1 So given that that's the only
2 change between this version of the design and this
3 New Prosperity design, I feel it's worth
4 exploring. I can get to my question very quickly.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Why don't
6 you get to your question and then we'll figure out
7 what to do with the submission.
8 MR. NELSON: It's not a
9 submission. It is a copy of the transcript, just
10 so you have it in front of you as I refer to it
11 for ease of reference. I will try and do it
12 without you having it in front of you.
13 Previously the Panel Chair of
14 the previous review asked, at the end of the
15 alternative assessment review, asked:
16
17 "Did the potential for
18 mine expansion effect
19 your choice of
20 alternatives?"
21
22 And Mr. Jones, as I understood
23 it, explained that it didn't, and the example he
24 gave was this option, option no. 2, and his words
25 were: 46
1 "So when you look at,
2 for example, the pit
3 and the tailings storage
4 facility in Upper Fish Creek -- "
5
6 That's this option:
7
8 " -- you're still trying
9 to preserve the lake
10 and you still make
11 the decision, you make
12 the logical association
13 to put the waste storage
14 facility north of the
15 pit because you're trying
16 to do that --"
17
18 I.e, preserve the lake:
19
20 "You only do that because
21 You're disregarding this
22 expansion that would
23 actually intersect
24 the lake."
25 47
1 He goes on to say:
2
3 "Because if the pit
4 enlarges to the point
5 that it actually
6 intersects the lake and
7 you lose the lake, if
8 you'd chosen mine development
9 plan 1 or 2 in anticipation
10 of saving the lake, you
11 just kind of lost the game,
12 if you know what I mean.
13 you've made your best
14 efforts to save the lake
15 and in maximizing the
16 extraction of the resource,
17 you'd lose the lake.
18 so it really didn't have
19 any bearing in the
20 selection of the
21 conclusion of mine
22 development plan 3 or
23 it's selection."
24
25 What I understand that to be 48
1 saying is that the design, the original design
2 preserving the lake, option no. 2, the rock piles
3 were to the north because you weren't looking at
4 expanding the pit.
5 If you were looking to expand
6 the pit you'd put them in a different place and
7 that's why I asked the question. It seems that's
8 exactly what's happened between versions of this
9 project.
10 MR. YELLAND: Maybe I can
11 answer that. We have no -- we have not considered
12 expanding this pit at all. This is the proposal
13 for a 20 year pit, and if we did, down the road,
14 want to expand this pit we could design a pit that
15 does not affect the lake.
16 We can get to the ore in other
17 ways. This is not a proposal for anything past --
18 actually, it's 16 years of mining and four years
19 of processing ore at the end of the day.
20 MR. NELSON: You're saying that
21 you could expand the pit without intersecting the
22 lake; if you could do that, why is that not part
23 of this design? Why have you chosen a design that
24 doesn't maximize the potential to extract without
25 impacting the integrity of the lake? 49
1 MR. YELLAND: Because the
2 design that would expand the pit is a much more
3 difficult way of doing it and maybe economics down
4 the road would allow us to do that, but at this
5 point in time it doesn't work.
6 So what we've done is tried to
7 extract as much of the ore as we can economically
8 and that's resulted in a 16 year pit.
9 MR. NELSON: Would you agree in
10 order to expand the pit in the future you would
11 have to move those rock piles from the northern
12 end of the pit to where they're located now in the
13 design?
14 MR. YELLAND: I can't answer
15 that. I'd have to look at it from an engineering
16 point of view and decide whether we could work
17 around it or not.
18 We have not looked at an
19 expansion at all. This is a proposal for a 16
20 year mine life. We've not looked at expanding
21 this pit.
22 MR. NELSON: Thank you.
23 My final question: In your
24 slides when you show the New Prosperity project
25 ranked 10th in size of the deposit in the world, 50
1 is that the full deposit under the project or is
2 that the amount that you can recover without
3 impacting the integrity of the lake?
4 MR. JONES: I'm going to make a
5 bit of a guess here, Jay. I believe that is based
6 on the contained ounces within the reserve, which
7 is bigger than the 20 year.
8 MR. NELSON: With your
9 permission, I'd like to hand up the copies of the
10 transcript so you have it in front of you and you
11 have the reference to what I was reading from.
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: It's in the
13 transcript but if you wish to do so, go ahead.
14 MR. NELSON: Thank you.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr.
16 LaPlante.
17 MR. LAPLANTE: Thank you. I
18 have a question. If I understood you correctly,
19 it was due to the economics that would determine
20 whether this was potentially feasible to expand;
21 is that correct?
22 MR. YELLAND: In any industry
23 you would look at the economics of an expansion if
24 you wanted to do that. Like I say, we have not
25 looked at an expansion. We've designed this pit 51
1 for 16 years to extract what we can.
2 MR. LAPLANTE: I understand
3 that. I guess my question was around you said it
4 was, in your belief, technically feasible but it
5 would depend on the economics. I just want to be
6 sure I'm right about that.
7 MS. RUSSELL: Excuse me, Mr.
8 Chairman --
9 MR. SMYTH: Yes, Ms. Russell.
10 MS. RUSSEL: My name is
11 Brittany Russell, counsel for Taseko. Questions
12 about a potential hypothetical expansion of the
13 New Prosperity project are not the subject of the
14 hearings. The questions is not relevant.
15 MR. LAPLANTE: My follow up
16 question, I think, would answer that.
17 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I think I'll
18 allow it for a short while.
19 MR. LAPLANTE: Was it fair to
20 characterize it as, depending on the economics,
21 potentially feasible?
22 MR. YELLAND: Depending on the
23 economics we would probably have to go through
24 another EA process. We'd have to take all
25 considerations into account, not just economics 52
1 and, once again, we'd have to do a lot more
2 testing in the area, geo technical. We have to
3 get base line studies, and depending on how we
4 want to design the pit a technical portion would
5 be part of it.
6 The economics would be part of
7 it. The ecology would be report part of it. No,
8 it's not just economics.
9 MR. LAPLANTE: I think we
10 disagree based on our experience at Gibraltar not
11 going through an EA.
12 My final question is: Is it
13 reasonably foreseeable, in your opinion, an
14 expansion could happen?
15 MR. YELLAND: I can't answer
16 that. Once again, we would have to take a look at
17 it. I can't say yes or no.
18 MR. LAPLANTE: That's it for
19 me. Thank you.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Other
21 questions for Taseko?
22 Changing the subject, you
23 indicated the monitoring would be reported to the
24 government on a regular basis; would the results
25 of that monitoring be made public as well? 53
1 MR. YELLAND: I believe it is
2 public information.
3 CHERYL WILLISTON: Yes.
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Would Taseko
5 make it public, which is different from what the
6 government does? I would ask the government that
7 question.
8 I'm interested in whether
9 Taseko would make that monitoring result public?
10 MS. GIZIKOFF: Katherine
11 Gizikoff here. Could you clarify if you're
12 speaking about Gibraltar or New Prosperity?
13 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Let me be
14 clear, I'm speaking about New Prosperity. You
15 might want to use Gibraltar as an example of what
16 you do now. I'm interested in New Prosperity.
17 MS. GIZIKOFF: The documents
18 are available to the public. But, as you're
19 indicating, it's not necessarily readily available
20 for someone that would like to look at them.
21 Since they are publicly
22 available we have no opposition to making the
23 monitoring results available for New Prosperity.
24 Currently, using Gibraltar as an example, those
25 documents are supplied to various interested 54
1 parties or communities of concern, like the First
2 Nations communities whose territory overlap.
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Let me try
4 to be very specific here, water quality data that
5 you submit to, I don't know whether it's Energy
6 and Mines or Environment, but you submit to the
7 Government of British Columbia, at that time do
8 you make it available publicly, for example,
9 through a web site or something like that?
10 MS. GIZIKOFF: No, for
11 Gibraltar we do not make it publicly available on
12 the web site. There are monthly, as well as
13 quarterly and annual, reporting we provide to the
14 Ministry of Environment as per our permit
15 conditions.
16 What is made more available for
17 the public audiences are specifically First
18 Nations. That's the annual report where it's
19 synthesized, as well as evaluation of trends
20 rather than just numbers.
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
22 very much. I have no further questions. At this
23 time, Chief Francis, I want to be sure I'm
24 accommodating the right people, so I'll read my
25 list and you can make sure I've got it right. It 55
1 looks like Councillor David Stieman is first on my
2 list. Councillor Georgina Johnny is second.
3 Peyel Gilpin Laceese is third and Douglas Johnny
4 is fourth; is that a good order? Thank you. In
5 that case, thank you very much Taseko.
6 PRESENTATION BY COUNCILLOR DAVID STIEMAN:
7 COUNCILLOR STIEMAN: I'd like
8 to welcome the Panel, Taseko representatives. I'd
9 like to thank the band members and other band
10 members that are here today. Excuse me. I have a
11 little problem with my throat today and am not
12 feeling too good. Thank you for bearing with me.
13 I'd like to thank the band
14 members that are here today and the Chief and
15 council who travelled here today. Thanks to
16 Francis Laceese for being here for his community
17 and the Tsilhqot'in Nation, and all the
18 councillors who are determined to be here for
19 their people's vision and goals, and community
20 members who are determined to speak out.
21 My name is David Stieman,
22 S-T-I-E-M-A-N, councillor for Toosey Band. I
23 started my job a year ago. I was a councillor
24 back in '99 to 2006, MIA for six years. I did a
25 lot in those six years, worked here and there, 56
1 helped families and much as I can, and families
2 and friends. I was in a relationship a few years
3 back. Got one son named James Haller. He is a
4 good person. He respects his people a lot. He's
5 growing up today.
6 My father and mother are still
7 alive. My mother has a lot of respect for people
8 and is a hard worker. She worked driving cattles,
9 worked in the hay fields, team horse and wagon,
10 cutting salmon, fishing for trout in the creek,
11 dry wild meat and smoked salmon, smoked meat,
12 jarred salmon and salt salmon, and picking
13 berries.
14 My mother was born February
15 13th, 1944. Her mother's name is Alice Johnny,
16 maiden name Montgomery. Her father is Eugene
17 Jolly. My mother has three sisters all still
18 alive and a brother.
19 My dad's mom was from Stoney.
20 I forget his name, but her last name is Brigham
21 and his dad was Charlie Stieman. My dad was a
22 farmer, a hunter, trapper and fisherman. He was
23 born in 1930 on the west side of the Fraser River.
24 He lived on salmon juice when he was born. He was
25 born July 22nd, 1930. 57
1 He told me once the river in
2 Fraser River was clear when he was young. He used
3 to get water from the Fraser River to cook and
4 drink from it back then.
5 I remember camping down there
6 with him when I was young, and the Tsilhqot'in
7 River. Back then there was fish, lots of fish,
8 just black all over the river, nowadays it ain't
9 like that anymore. I got three brothers, two
10 sisters and two half sisters that live with us in
11 the Tsilhqot'in.
12 I also didn't have a good life
13 when I was growing up, back and forth to
14 residential school. Alcohol and drugs got the
15 best of me. It was a rough life to live. I
16 survived through all that.
17 Tsilhqot'in people want good
18 things for their land. It makes us feel alive in
19 our heart and soul. We have worked hard in the
20 Tsilhqot'in land.
21 I was an archeology assistant
22 for a long time. I respect that job, as it gave
23 me a lot of respect for the job and the
24 Tsilhqot'in people of Xeni Gwet'in and other
25 people I don't even know. 58
1 Back in probably around 19 --
2 or 2006 or so, round in that area I worked with a
3 team of archeologists and assistants. The company
4 I worked for was Tera Consultants out in
5 Vancouver, B.C. They made a team from the
6 Tsilhqot'in reserve; their names were Freddy Hank
7 from Yunesit'in, Mitch Hunlin from Tsi Deldel,
8 Alex Lulua from Xeni Gwet'in, Earl Quilt from
9 Yunesit'in, and Shelley Hanlin from(Native word)
10 and I from Tsilhqot'in.
11 I worked on the transmission
12 line which was done by Santech Consultants out of
13 Vancouver. A team of assistants from the
14 Tsilhqot'in Nation and the Shuswap's worked for
15 them; their names were Gerald Johnny, his
16 daughter, Shania Johnny, from Tsilhqot'in and John
17 Charleyboy from Tsi Deldel, and two other people
18 from Sugar Cane. I just can't remember the name.
19 I also worked with IR Wilson
20 from Vancouver, B.C., did cut blocks for the
21 forestry for harvesting. I also worked with IR
22 Wilson way before I started with Santech and Tera.
23 I worked with Tera Consultants
24 at Fish Lake. I worked around Fish Lake about a
25 10 square mile. On the south side of a hill at 59
1 Fish Lake there's a hill facing east, but on the
2 west side of the lake facing east a trail that
3 went up the hill into the area where the pipe was
4 found.
5 It was a blessing and honour to
6 find something so pre-historic as a pipe that was
7 used by our ancestors. I couldn't believe it when
8 I found something like that. It gave me a
9 strength to believe and happiness that our
10 ancestors were there and buried there; proof that
11 our people did ceremonies there, prayed for our
12 leaders and members to live with harmony and love
13 from the bad things, and for our burial grounds
14 that are there and the well-being of our people.
15 I'd like to give thanks to the
16 people I work with. I gave a lot of credit. It's
17 not only me that was out there working. There
18 were great, honest people I work with, respect.
19 I also found arrowheads and
20 tools that they used made out of obsidian. Our
21 land is our economic value. We live and try for
22 it.
23 My father was a true horse man,
24 rode horses most of his life, broke horses, shoe'd
25 horses, hunted with horses. I am still healing, 60
1 so as my people are healing from the trauma we
2 been through. Our people are still healing today.
3 I don't want the mine to
4 destroy our burial grounds. I oppose the New
5 Prosperity because it is wrong. We are returning
6 to the path of our ancestors. Thank you.
7 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
8 Councillor Stieman. Any questions for the
9 councillor?
10 MR. STIEMAN: I'm sorry, I
11 brought a pipe that I found with me when I was out
12 at Fish Lake.
13 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
14 Mr. Stieman, that's an impressive find. Would you
15 permit our secretariat to take a picture of that?
16 MR. STIEMAN: Sure.
17 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Do we have
18 any questions? Taseko?
19 MR. JONES: We have no
20 questions. Thank you.
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I can only
22 observe how excited you must have been to find
23 that pipe. It's pretty exciting stuff. We have
24 no further questions. Thank you very much.
25 Our next speaker is councillor 61
1 Georgina Johnny.
2 PRESENTATION BY COUNCILLOR GEORGINA JOHNNY:
3 COUNCILLOR JOHNNY: Good
4 morning. My name is Georgina Johnny. I sit on
5 our - J-O-H-N-N-Y. I sit on council here at
6 Toosey Band. I come from -- my parents are Eugene
7 Johnny and Alice Johnny and I'm the great grand
8 daughter of Johnny Toosey who started Tl'esqox.
9 Once again, I stand here today
10 talking on Prosperity Mine. I can stand here as
11 long as it takes to support Xeni Gwet'in. That's
12 how we are as people, we support one another. We
13 are a six Tsilhqot'in band. I'll stand here and
14 support them again and again if that's what it
15 takes.
16 To me, I've seen things up
17 here. Those are how -- how would you put it?
18 Smart people have things on paper. Us, we don't
19 really live that life. We live off the land and
20 that's how we were taught. That's how I was
21 thought as a young child, and one of the things my
22 grandfather said when I was young is things are
23 going to change once the white people come in.
24 They're going to come in and things are going to
25 change from there. Things are going to be taken 62
1 away from us and our young ones that have to be
2 here to be able to project what we have left.
3 One of the things that I do in
4 my life is I fish and I hunt and we make wood and
5 all that stuff. We don't live -- we are so
6 different from what I call the "white people".
7 What we cherish and what we value you can't put a
8 price on it, and these are our lands, our animals
9 that we hunt.
10 After everything is said and
11 done -- and that time is coming. From what I
12 hear, money is going to be of no value, and that's
13 what our great grandfather's have said. So from
14 me being here today and teaching my children and
15 grand children how to live off the land. That is
16 the only way we know.
17 Of course, there is the white
18 society that we have to learn to live in, going to
19 school, learning, and we're getting more people in
20 that area to be able to gain knowledge through the
21 schools on what the white society have, but my one
22 and big only thing is I live off the land also,
23 and that's the way I would like to see it.
24 I know things are changing and
25 for us to be able to change. We're going to have 63
1 to change with time also, but to be able to
2 preserve what we have and only what we have is
3 what I would like to see.
4 With that, I won't take too
5 much time. I know we have other speakers.
6 So, with that, I would like to
7 say thank you to all that's here and all the work
8 that has been put into this day, and I know we
9 have a lot of great speakers coming behind me and
10 a lot of our elders and children are able to
11 speak.
12 I'd like to thank each and
13 every one of you today.
14 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
15 very much, Councillor Georgina. If I questions
16 for the councillor. Taseko? Thank you so much
17 for your ideas and advice. That's helpful.
18 The next speaker is Peyel
19 Laceese.
20 PRESENTATION BY PEYEL LACEESE:
21 PEYEL LACEESE: My name is
22 Peyel Lacesse. I'm a part of the local community
23 youth.
24 I'd like to introduce myself in
25 Tsilhqot'in. (Native being spoken). 64
1 My name is Peyel Laceese. My
2 father is Chief Francis Laceese, and my mother is
3 Denise Gilpin from Anaham.
4 I am devoted and committed to
5 learning my culture, to learning my language, as I
6 am still learning my language today. I try as
7 hard as I can to follow the old way of life. I do
8 traditional ceremonies such as sweat lodge. I do
9 a pow-wow dance. I grass dance, as well as
10 encouraging my fellow youth to follow these ways
11 as a drug and alcohol free life, to walk the red
12 road.
13 Over my years of walking the
14 red road I tried to learn as much as I can from my
15 elders, learning traditional songs, learning
16 medicines, doing things in the ways that were
17 intended by the creator.
18 Being out west towards Fish
19 Lake and Nemiah is one of my favourite things to
20 do, is being away from all of this technology or
21 modern, modern ways I guess you could say.
22 Being able to fish and hunt and
23 learn the old way, and from people, different
24 people, learning their aspects and just learning
25 as much as I can. 65
1 Being around the area here, I
2 know quite a bit as I hunt around here on
3 traditional lands and know the trap line fishing
4 areas and old wagon roads, and also just recently
5 seeing the mapping outline of the big power line
6 that's going to be going through is devastating.
7 Seeing it going right through
8 the middle of the area where our trap line is,
9 it's harsh for me to see that. It's where I hunt
10 and do traditional ceremonies.
11 There's many medicines that
12 also grow around there. As I travel back up
13 against the Rockies with my step-grandpa I've been
14 learning old medicines and doing ceremonies up
15 near Red Mountain and following the traditional
16 way of life, and seeing where that power line is.
17 Just the power line itself is
18 very, very -- I think would have a very harsh
19 effect on our way of life. The power line itself
20 would have a dramatic effect, as there are still
21 (Native being spoken), still many grizzly bears
22 out there and I'd also like to talk about how I
23 was raised or how I'm being raised.
24 As I'm learning to live in the
25 old ways I'm tempted to stay away from technology 66
1 or drugs and alcohol and any negative things like
2 that. I try to also encourage my siblings to
3 follow the red road and try to learn the culture
4 and do pow-wow ceremonies and seeing these values
5 as I would say the mines are seeing this gold,
6 this copper, as values. I don't see those as
7 values.
8 I see my language, my culture,
9 my tradition are my top values. Following the old
10 way of life, my tradition is one of my first
11 priorities. Seeing how -- seeing how we lived,
12 how we used to do things, it shows me that we were
13 - and still are - strong, indigenous peoples.
14 Hearing about our legends and
15 cultures and stories gives me a good idea of what
16 and how our people used our lands, and they say
17 that even -- I would guarantee that if you would
18 ask, or even had a conversation with any of our
19 youth they would choose our culture, our language
20 as a first priority.
21 Other than hearing how Taseko
22 or these mines having job opportunities, they
23 would choose our culture, our tradition, over
24 these jobs any day, and seeing all of our people
25 here, all of the Panel and the secretaries brings 67
1 a positive, I think would bring a positive
2 outcome. Hopefully it will. And I encourage any
3 other youth to come up and have a say what's on
4 their mind about these things that are being said.
5 And I'd like to thank the Panel
6 and thank everybody who was listening, and I'd
7 like to just say how much respect I have for you
8 people coming here and having to have the patience
9 to hear what our people have to say.
10 I thank you in the most
11 respectful way.
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
13 Mr. Laceese. It is our privilege to come here and
14 learn from you and your fellow community people
15 and from the company and from others.
16 Do we have any questions for
17 Mr. Laceese? Taseko?
18 MR. JONES: No questions.
19 MR. KUPFER: Thank you very
20 much for sharing.
21 MR. SMYTH: I had a question
22 about the trap line and where the transmission
23 line is. It's quite a distance from here; would
24 you drive to where your trap line is or would you
25 go on foot from here? 68
1 MR. LACESSE: We would do many
2 things. We would horse back or we would, most of
3 the time, drive back there and what I would do
4 with my step-grandpa, we would drive and we would
5 probably stay back there for a good week or two, a
6 good week, and we would -- I'll be learning the
7 medicines and walking through the area around
8 graveyard valley and all around back there.
9 MR. SMYTH: My last question
10 will show my ignorance; the red road, can you tell
11 me what the red road is?
12 MR. LACEESE: My definition of
13 the red road is being positive, walking without
14 any negativity in the most humble way possible,
15 without having any drugs or alcohol following in
16 the traditional way, following how to do things,
17 turn to the creator, I guess you would say, other
18 than any modern things anybody would do today.
19 It's -- I guess you could say
20 very, walking in a way that is very spiritual as I
21 try to do ceremonies and learn ceremonies as much
22 as I can, and encouraging youth as well as to walk
23 this road is like a positive path, walking in the
24 most positive way possible.
25 MR. SMYTH: Thank you. Well 69
1 said.
2 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
3 My questions were going to be about the trap line
4 and Ron has covered those.
5 I thank you for coming forward
6 and offering us your ideas. Thank you.
7 The next speaker I have is
8 Douglas Johnny.
9 PRESENTATION BY DOUGLAS JOHNNY:
10 MR. JOHNNY: I just want to say
11 good day to everybody, the Federal Panel and
12 Taseko personnel and all the leaders that are here
13 and the people.
14 One of the first things I'd
15 like to talk about is the way I've been thought is
16 the great medicine wheel, and that involves the
17 four colours, the man on earth, the black, white,
18 yellow and the red man.
19 The creator was the one that
20 created the medicine wheel and that's where all my
21 teachings come from. It involves the spiritual,
22 the mental, the emotional and the physical, and
23 each coloured man was given a way to pray by the
24 creator, and each coloured man, there's somebody
25 that knows these sacred ways and the white man 70
1 were given the 10 commandments. That's what I
2 understand. And our people were known as the "red
3 man" given the sacred values by the creator to
4 live by. And also there was a woman named White
5 Buffalo Woman that brought the sacred pipe to our
6 people, and with that pipe she also brought the
7 instructions on how to use that pipe, and when we
8 walked this road we do it alcohol and drug free,
9 and we try to be as humble as possible.
10 When we're humble our prayers
11 are very, very strong. And the pipe that I carry,
12 it's a direct connection to the creator, and each
13 direction, the west, east, south, we have
14 grandfathers in the spirit world and these
15 grandfathers have very, very special gifts.
16 To the west is the protection
17 and they take care of anything that's negative,
18 whether it's spirit, mind, heart or body. And the
19 north is the healing direction. There again it's
20 the spirit, the mind, heart or body. And to the
21 east direction is the wisdom and knowledge and
22 it's a direction for giving thanks.
23 To that direction -- well,
24 first of all, to the west direction is the secret
25 thunder beings, the Buffalo people, and the black 71
1 bear people, and to the north is the elk people
2 and the bald eagle and to the east is the black
3 deer and the morning star and to the south, to the
4 spirit world, are the wing relations, the owl and
5 spotted eagle.
6 Throughout time each and every
7 one of the tribes, they knew these things. Ever
8 since time immemorial, they were given these
9 sacred ways by God, God himself, and that was how
10 our people lived, by trying to follow these sacred
11 values, and I'd also like to mention whatever that
12 we do today, whether we're black, white, yellow or
13 red men, whether it's negative or positive, will
14 have an effect on future generations for 7
15 generations.
16 Think about it, whether it's
17 positive or negative, and I really believe that
18 here in both sides, the Taseko personnel and the
19 people that live here, I believe there's a final
20 balance. We are not against industry or
21 development. There is a culture to re-learn and
22 to preserve in the Tsilhqot'in.
23 We are the Northern Dene
24 people. We are part of the Navaho people. We
25 have values to live by and I imagine what's on a 72
1 lot of people's minds is why weren't you people
2 doing these things that were given to you by the
3 creator? Along the way we were disrupted. And I
4 have here we were disrupted in -- that we were
5 disrupted through residential schools and as a
6 result a lot of us turned towards alcohol and
7 drugs, and our values, you know, we're sort of,
8 they were left by the way side.
9 Today, you know, I see our
10 people, you know, we are just on the verge of
11 getting those values back. The values have always
12 been there, been kept by the spirits, by the
13 grandfathers, and the only way that we will get
14 the sacred values back is to work with our youth,
15 teach them about the sacred values given to our
16 people by the creator, the great spirit. And it's
17 a beautiful culture.
18 In 1991 I had a dream about the
19 sun dance and I had a dream about the pipe. I had
20 a dream about the vision quest. And that's a road
21 that I been walking ever since. I can go back to
22 the negative or positive that people decide today,
23 that will have an effect on the people, on the
24 great medicine wheel, like I said, for the next 7
25 generations. 73
1 And I hear people saying that
2 they want better relationships with First Nations
3 people. I hear it all the time. I hear it on the
4 TV, on the radio and in the local paper and, well,
5 I guess, first of all, you need to understand what
6 our culture is all about and that we are people.
7 We are human beings.
8 We were put here by the great
9 spirit, the Lakota people, they call them the
10 "great mystery", and to walk this road -- one of
11 you mentioned the red road. I will tell you what
12 the red road is. The red road is between your
13 heart to your mind. And the red road is trying to
14 live by -- there's sacred values given to our
15 people by God. That's what it is. And when we
16 walk this way, when we carry the pipe for the
17 people and we do our vision quest, 4 days, 4
18 nights, no food or water, and the same with the
19 Sundays. It's a very, very hard road to walk. If
20 it was easy there's be thousand's of people doing
21 it, but it's not.
22 I been doing sweat lodges here
23 for the last 20 years. You know, change is slow
24 and that's the way the creator wants it. He wants
25 it to be slow so we can pay attention to those 74
1 sacred values. So we can learn and never forget.
2 And when I do my vision quest I been shown a lot
3 of things when I go out to the sun dance. When I
4 go to the sun dance also I been shown a lot of
5 things.
6 The values to our people are to
7 respect all the God's creation and to practice
8 honesty, to be honest and truthful, and to be
9 humble. To be humble does not mean we're passive
10 and are going to roll over and let people walk
11 over us. That's not what it means. It's to
12 respect the creator and the spirit world, because
13 there are 405 good grandmothers and 405 good
14 grandfathers in our culture.
15 And the generosity, that again,
16 doesn't mean we're going to give everything away.
17 It means we will share with the people their wants
18 and needs providing it's within reason.
19 In the old days when people
20 come into a people's camp, you know, the people
21 would give them food and if they need clothing
22 they would give them that. That's what it means.
23 To pray for people as fortunate as we are. The
24 people could be sick, could be sick in the spirit,
25 mind, heart, body or whatever, and wisdom. 75
1 We practice these ways once we
2 learn the knowledge and that becomes wisdom, and
3 only if we walk that road we can pass this
4 knowledge to the next generation. That's what you
5 call it, to have courage, to have courage to
6 express how we feel and to have courage to go into
7 an undertaking without showing fear.
8 That's what it is to have
9 courage and today I really believe that we have
10 that courage to talk about our culture openly, and
11 to talk about our land, which is sacred; it's been
12 there for generations and generations, long before
13 Taseko ever was thinking about putting a mine in
14 and we're going to be here long, long after
15 they're gone.
16 I guess the question is in what
17 condition is the land going to be once Taseko,
18 once their 20 years or 25 years is up? And I
19 think during that time there's going to be a lot
20 of negative coming in to the land.
21 We're having a lot of trouble
22 as it is trying to get to our youth to learn about
23 the culture. I really believe that industry is
24 going to bring a lot more negative. Already we
25 have gangs and lots of violence, lots of alcohol 76
1 and drug abuse and from this alcohol and drug
2 abuse, you know, there's spin off's from that
3 also. And I don't have that kind of time to talk
4 about all these negative things.
5 And the last one is fortitude.
6 Many of you know what it is. Fortitude is the
7 power of the mind. We've seen logs hauled out of
8 our land for the last 60 years with very little
9 opportunity for our people. Only in the last 15
10 years or so there are a few truck drivers and
11 whatnot, but you can just imagine how much
12 stumpage the government collected from the
13 millions and millions of trees that's been hauled
14 out of our land.
15 If that forest is not enough
16 and people say Taseko Mine is going to bring us
17 more jobs, who is to blame? Who gave out the
18 timber license? Who gave out the fishing rights
19 on the coast?
20 My late father-in-law was a
21 fisherman and he was forced to sell his boat,
22 because they have very little openings. Maybe
23 some are lucky if they get two to four hours
24 opening in one year and their boat sits on a dock
25 the rest of the year. 77
1 I know there's been a lot of
2 negative feedback from the people in Williams
3 Lake, a lot of it is un-seen, but I know it's
4 there. We bring our vehicle to get fixed and none
5 of those things are even looked at and we get
6 charged for it.
7 I think in a lot of people's
8 mind that don't know about our culture, I'm
9 explaining a little bit about it today, you know,
10 that we live off the government. That could be
11 the case, but also the government, they have a
12 responsibility to our people also.
13 But today a lot of our people
14 are getting a lot stronger. They're going back to
15 school, finishing grade 12 and going back to
16 college. They're taking a lot of different
17 avenues to educate themselves, which is good.
18 And my sister Gina mentioned
19 that money is not going to be a factor in the
20 future. You know, it says that in your own Bible.
21 You take the time out some time and read your
22 Bible. That's what the creator gave to the white
23 man. It says in there that money is not going to
24 be a factor in the future, and also back in the, I
25 believe it could be the sixties or seventies, I'm 78
1 not too sure, there's a fellow named sun bear, he
2 had a vision, and that's what he seen. He seen
3 people wandering all over the countryside looking
4 for food and he said he seen money flying
5 everywhere. It was worthless so why keep it? He
6 just threw it out in the streets.
7 And the water is very
8 important, not only to us but also the whole
9 world, fresh water. And in the ceremonies that we
10 do, we use all four elements of life. We use the
11 air, the water, the fire. In a sweat lodge we use
12 the stone people.
13 A lot of use have seen rocks
14 laying around. It's just a rock, that's all it
15 is, but that fire spirit is going to wake up that
16 rock and it becomes a pure spirit and that's
17 what's going to help the people inside the sweat
18 lodge. We just can't do with the earth.
19 Everything that grows upon this
20 earth -- you know, I really believe there's going
21 to come a time, if you people don't heed the
22 wisdom of our First Nation's elders, I really
23 believe that the earth is going to talk to us in a
24 way that we will understand.
25 The Lakota's, they hung on to 79
1 that sacred knowledge, the 7 values of that pipe.
2 They never gave up. They were the only people in
3 North America that held on to sacred values. And
4 a Crowe woman had a vision. She said in the
5 future could be a lot of people going to the area
6 of black hills and I guess she was talking about
7 the Lakota people.
8 She said a lot of people are
9 going to go there and these people are hungry, and
10 for the longest time no one really understood that
11 vision. People are hungry for the knowledge and
12 these things were given to us by the creator. So
13 they're just as sacred as the 10 commandments,
14 just as sacred as the ceremonies and how the black
15 people pray. They're certainly just as sacred as
16 the orientals.
17 So that's our culture, and
18 we're on the verge of getting back a lot of these
19 sacred values.
20 During the vision quest and the
21 sun dance I been shown a lot of things and the
22 land in question is a really, really important
23 piece of land. The people used to do the vision
24 quest on the island there.
25 I don't understand all my 80
1 dreams and visions but maybe the next generation
2 will, because they're sure as heck a lot stronger
3 than I am.
4 And I really believe if the
5 mine goes through, like I said, a lot of negative
6 things are going to follow the way of life, of
7 industry. I think you're going to need a bigger
8 police force, for one thing.
9 When peak people backed up
10 against a wall they going to do a lot of things
11 that's unreasonable. Maybe they break the law.
12 Maybe they go against the people that work there.
13 I don't know these things. It's just what I feel
14 in my heart.
15 And I believe what little
16 ground that the town of Williams Lake has
17 achieved, they say we're trying to establish a
18 relationship with First Nations' people. That
19 could change very quickly. And, who knows, I
20 really don't know.
21 I can't tell you the future,
22 but I do know it's going to really have a negative
23 impact on the First Nations' people. And what is
24 the price of fuel going to be by the time the mine
25 reaches it's capacity? 81
1 You say it has a 20 year life
2 span. You take a look at the price of fuel today,
3 and how much fuel are those big trucks going to be
4 burning? And how much more damage they going to
5 do to the environment?
6 I heard in the past from
7 different people that the mine is important. I
8 really believe that the mining is just not as
9 important as you're talking about that area
10 surrounding Fish Lake. I really don't think so,
11 and I know some of you agree with me and some of
12 you don't. That's okay. I'm here. I just tell
13 you my side of the story.
14 This is the life that I have.
15 I stay connected to the creator. I stay connected
16 to the grandma's and grandpa's and stay connected
17 to the land. I give thanks to the spirit world
18 for today, for the food and everything that I eat
19 today, and I know there's things that I overlook
20 or forget, but that's all I'm going to say today.
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
22 very much, Mr. Johnny. Thank you for sharing your
23 wisdom with us and your ideas. Any questions?
24 Taseko?
25 MR. JONES: No questions. 82
1 MR. KUPFER: Thank you for your
2 tears.
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
4 Mr. Johnny. We'll now break for lunch. I'm told
5 lunch is available out there and it smells pretty
6 good. We'll be back here in 1 hour at 1:30.
7 --- Recess taken at 12:29 p.m.
8 --- Resumed at 1:15 p.m.
9 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Good
10 afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I think we're
11 ready to reconvene after lunch.
12 The first announcement I have
13 is not entirely a pleasant one. As you heard this
14 morning, there has been a death in Red Stone and
15 Deep Creek communities, so at 2 o'clock the Panel
16 will stop for one minute of silence to celebrate
17 the life of the two people who passed away.
18 At this time, however, speak
19 speaker I have is Councillor Violet Tipple.
20 PRESENTATION BY VIOLET TIPPLE:
21 MS. TIPPLE: Hi. My name is
22 Violet Tipple, T-I-P-P-L-E. My maiden name is
23 Johnny, J-O-H-N-N-Y.
24 I have been on council since
25 2010 and I'm also a member of the Toosey band, and 83
1 I would welcome everyone here today. My parents
2 are both from here. My grandma, Teresa Billy, on
3 my father's side, is originally from Nemiah
4 Valley, and my grandfather on my mother's side is
5 originally from Red Stone.
6 I grew up here in Toosey and I
7 was raised by may mother, Mabel Johnny. My family
8 has a very strong connection and we were taught to
9 respect everything and everyone around us.
10 Our family -- we live off the
11 land, we pick the berries, we fish in the
12 Chilcotin River. We do -- we clean and cut the
13 fish, get it ready to dry, and I remember my
14 grandmother used to salt the fish.
15 Our family does this every
16 year, every summer. It wasn't until I got older
17 when I started to can the fish. And I would do
18 some for my family members also. We also fished
19 in the Fraser River, but now we just fish in the
20 Chilcotin.
21 I was told that the salmon in
22 the Fraser River is only good for canning, and it
23 is too soft to dry, it's too difficult to cut up.
24 And during my years of growing up, all of us kids
25 would go out hunting with my Uncle Donald and my 84
1 Aunt Mary Jane who are deceased now.
2 I have two sons and they, too,
3 fish in Chilcotin River, and we all look forward
4 to this time of the year.
5 The hunting and fishing is
6 something we depend on and is very important to
7 our lifestyle. We were taught to live off the
8 land and this is why I do not agree with the mine.
9 It will destroy the lands with the proposed
10 transmission line and I do not agree with the
11 mine, and I will stand behind my family and my
12 people, my Nation, so that everything we believe
13 in is not destroyed.
14 And that's it. Thank you.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
16 very much, Councillor Violet.
17 First, are there any questions
18 for Councillor Violet? Taseko? My colleague is
19 busy writing here.
20 MR. KUPFER: Thank you for your
21 sharing. Do you also spend some time in the Fish
22 Lake area as part of your summers?
23 MS. TIPPLE: I've gone out
24 there a few times, yeah.
25 MR. KUPFER: Do you catch 85
1 trout, or do you dry trout?
2 MS. TIPPLE: I don't, but my
3 grandmother does.
4 MR. KUPFER: Thank you.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I have
6 nothing else to add, Councillor Violet. Thank you
7 very much for your presentation and for sharing
8 your ideas, and especially thank you for your
9 welcome. It's very much appreciated.
10 The next speaker I have is
11 Quinton Palmantier.
12 PRESENTATION BY QUINTON PALMANTIER:
13 MR. PALMANTIER: I'll make this
14 short and quick because I go to work here. My
15 name is Quinton Palmantier. I'm form here at
16 Toosey and I'm a youth worker and about the
17 students and --
18 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr.
19 Palmantier, just because I can see the court
20 reporter couldn't spell your last name. Could you
21 help her, please?
22 MR. PALMANTIER: My last name,
23 P-A-L-M-A-N-T-I-E-R.
24 My dad is Clint Palmantier.
25 He's from here too, and my mom is Sharon. Her 86
1 maiden name is stump. She lives in ?Esdilagh,
2 Alexandria band. My grandpa is Freddy Palmantier.
3 Many people now him well in the rodeo business and
4 -- yes, I do some rodeo, do some saddle bronk
5 riding and bear back riding. I live the crazy
6 life, I guess.
7 My grandpa taught me lots
8 living from the land, hunting, fishing and all
9 about the countries, the old wagon roads and from
10 here, Nemiah, wherever.
11 Right now I'm going to Olds,
12 Alberta, living in Olds, Alberta now, going to
13 college and try to be a role model to the
14 Chilcotin's youth, to everybody, and this mine I
15 don't agree with.
16 There's three rules I stand by
17 here, and those three rules: Help folks in need,
18 don't fall for greed and jealous person reads (ph)
19 before you speak. And the way I see it, there's
20 two rules getting broken: Greed and jealousy.
21 And that's not the way of life,
22 how I see it.
23 And another thing I see is us
24 First Nations, we're living a low class life and
25 we're getting pushed around so much, not only 87
1 happens here but it happens all over through
2 Canada. All the Natives are getting pushed around
3 by high class people and it's not right.
4 And yeah, there's a gang going
5 on and wherever and it's how we're living. We're
6 living low life and that's not good and -- that's
7 what this mine too, seemed like it's getting
8 pushed and pushed and -- I don't know, we say it's
9 getting to the breaking point, I guess. But in
10 the last two years, you guys never won against us
11 and never will. So that's all I got to say,
12 thanks for your time.
13 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
14 very much, Mr. Palmantier.
15 First, any questions for
16 Mr. Palmantier? Taseko?
17 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you.
18 Catherine Gizikoff here.
19 Thank you, Quinton, for your
20 presentation. You mentioned that you were awe
21 youth worker and you made a comment about
22 challenges with gangs. If you had your way, what
23 type of programs would you put in place maybe
24 specific to your community to try and help that?
25 MR. PALMANTIER: The workshops 88
1 and that, just telling it it's wrong probably.
2 Tell them it's wrong about all the negative stuff.
3 MS. GIZIKOFF: Cultural
4 workshops maybe with elders?
5 MR. PALMANTIER: Yes.
6 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you.
7 MR. KUPFER: Thank you. We,
8 too, know where Olds is, so we know where you
9 spend some of your time.
10 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I have a
11 very modest question for you. Are you going to be
12 competing in this weekend 's rodeo?
13 MR. PALMANTIER: No.
14 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: All right.
15 Thank you so much for your presentation.
16 The next speakers are three
17 together, Luke Doxtator, David Setah and JP. I
18 assume it's Mr. LaPlante.
19 PRESENTATION BY LUKE DOXTATOR, DAVID SETAH AND
20 J.P. LA PLANTE:
21 MR. LA PLANTE: Thank you,
22 Mr. Chairman.
23 To my left is David Setah, and
24 he's the Tsyl'os forest ranger whom you've heard
25 from in Xeni. To my right is Luke Doxtator, who 89
1 is the stewardship manager for the Tsilhqot'in
2 National Government, and our presentation is
3 called the Baseline Status of Chilcotin
4 Traditional Lands Approaching Nabas and Tezton
5 Biny, and all the maps up around the wall are part
6 of that.
7 But we're going to actually
8 begin with David speaking about his role as the
9 ranger and moose declines.
10 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
11 Go right ahead.
12 MR. SETAH: Hello. My name is
13 the David Seta. As JP said, I do work as a
14 Tsyl'os park ranger and also as a wild horse
15 ranger for Nemiah, which I explained on my last
16 presentation.
17 I know from before we always
18 talk about sustainability. This has a lot to do
19 with it. I mean, the two maps you see in front of
20 us. I mean, there's been talks before about
21 drawing a total picture of Fish Lake. I
22 understand that.
23 But when you also talk about
24 drawing a total picture about all the things
25 that's are happening on the land, then these two 90
1 maps is what we got. I also did talk about -- I
2 seen forestry come and go, this is what them
3 forestry left us, this is what we got.
4 As I was listening earlier --
5 Douglas, Johnny, he also talk about logging, seen
6 a lot of vehicles gone by, logging trucks gone by
7 and low minimum jobs to first Nation until it's
8 towards the end.
9 So was a logging impact that's
10 here right now. It affected a lot of things. I
11 mean, there's a lot of ways that we stepped in to
12 make the logging practice a lot different from
13 what it is.
14 The first time that logging
15 plans was shown to us you can actually see a cut
16 block going right through the lake, and that's
17 known fish bodies. And in the past I also have
18 seen cut blocks that go through creeks that have
19 salmon in there. These maps won't show it but --
20 the time of the years about like in '89 to '91 we
21 did a lot of talking with forestry, Ministry of
22 Forest to make those changes, and all those is
23 just encoded into forest practice code nowadays.
24 All this does affect the moose
25 population. It affects a lot of things out there. 91
1 If we ignored all these things and let practice go
2 as the way they were -- I mean, not only the moose
3 would have been affected but also like the fish
4 bearing stream, fish bearing lakes, all that would
5 have been affected today.
6 So we seen all this coming a
7 long time ago. The reason why we seen it coming
8 is that we're the most isolated community. We
9 know how it affects on the outside because we do
10 go outside our reserve to go into Williams Lake
11 and we seem the impacts that were coming and we
12 adapted to it. I mean, we got the declaration
13 back home and all that, that talks about all the
14 things we don't want to see, because we did see it
15 out there and how it affects people.
16 What you see here is what
17 already did happen. You keep in mind forestry did
18 come and it went. It's still going today but it's
19 barely, barely going. And you always wonder upon
20 that, if you look at the management.
21 I highly stress on that is the
22 management of forestry, Ministry of Forest. Over
23 the times and all the things are -- the logging is
24 going on, then they always seem to stick to the
25 system where you can make the most money. Nothing 92
1 else matters. You want to address the beetle?
2 Why is it 6, 30 (ph) percent? We ask all those
3 questions.
4 Now let's talk about the
5 future. Mining. Where is that going to impact?
6 It is already going to impact upon impacts? I
7 mean, there's probably some -- I guess some fair
8 to say that there's exploration maps, I don't
9 think we got those. You look at those ones there
10 and you also -- you also look at the areas they
11 are impacting.
12 We got Fish Lake mines right
13 here but you also got further explorations on the
14 headwaters of Taseko. I mean, we stopping the
15 exploration up there.
16 My simple question to them up
17 there was that -- I ask them this one question.
18 They said, why would you look at this area? You
19 guys are in the headwaters, the headwaters of that
20 flow into Taseko that go down the river.
21 You guys known that, and based
22 on you guys probably won't never get approved. In
23 the perfect world you shouldn't get approved in
24 that area, so why bother? Is only explanation to
25 me was that I just want to see what's underneath. 93
1 Well, once you find what's
2 under underneath it might be a lot like what is
3 Taseko mine like right now. Be hard to stop.
4 I mean, that's the kind of
5 impact we got to look at and going back to what
6 forestry did. Mining, you got to look at it the
7 same way. What is all the possible impacts? We
8 got a more (muffled) in Stone Lake, that's all.
9 Down (ph) is also down further down Taseko River.
10 What's going to happen there? Exploration, sure,
11 but somewhere it is going to get too big?
12 I understand there's a few
13 areas, even in the caretaker Tsi deldel, which is
14 Red Stone. There got to be a lot more planning to
15 be down out there in regards to environment that
16 has a lot to do with mining.
17 I want to do -- gas and oil.
18 We hear that in the background. We hear that
19 there's gas and oil in the rocks, just because
20 it's the terrain there, and not really looking at
21 getting into -- but that comes be the last thing
22 then. That's where they going to go.
23 I mean, that's the future
24 impacts we're looking at. We always talk about us
25 is that sustainability. 94
1 The map in front of me doesn't
2 show. Overall -- also like what Douglas is
3 saying, is that when is enough? He also talks
4 about when mother earth starts talking to you,
5 starts doing the things, then they start
6 communicating to you that you did too much.
7 I mean, right now most of you
8 probably know is that moose population is down by
9 51 percent. Be interesting even for everyone to
10 see what kind of plan is put forward on this next
11 hunting season, and that might not be the only
12 thing. Industry affects that in different ways.
13 My question is always the same,
14 when is it enough? I talk to my friend Gene
15 Cooper and all the time when I was a councillor I
16 took care of forestry. One thing I used to try to
17 hold him to is the sustainability of what they
18 call landscape units. And I ask him that very
19 question not too long ago: Is that landscape unit
20 still in effect? He just smile and he shook his
21 head. Now they trying to keep forestry alive and
22 pretty well everything that's out there is in the
23 hands of RPFs nowadays.
24 So they are just taking what's
25 left. That's where forestry is now. 95
1 We're in the early starts of
2 mining. There's something that might come a lot
3 bigger, and that's my question from what we got
4 now, how bad it is going to really affect us? How
5 well are we really looking for it between open pit
6 mines, other mining, between gas and oil? Because
7 eventually just like any other resource, whatever
8 is left they are going to keep going after.
9 I've been in -- for the first
10 time about two years ago I've been overseas. I've
11 been to Germany. I mean, I enjoy the trip lots,
12 seeing different countries, but when you're back
13 there there's no such thing as wild salmon back
14 there.
15 That country is a lot older
16 than us. What I see wildlife out there is all
17 fenced off. We don't have that here. Eventually
18 we keep going the way we're going right now, we
19 going to be in the same -- going to be doing the
20 same thing. We going to be fencing off the
21 wilderness area. That's the only place that's got
22 wilderness. I seen deers and wild bores (ph) down
23 there, and they are all in the fence.
24 What really amazed me over
25 there is horse drawn wagons, horse drawn chariots. 96
1 I mean, those things are just like car lots over
2 there. The reason why I mention it is that they
3 are saying whatever little tradition, we got we're
4 really trying to hang on it to it now because we
5 didn't do that in the past.
6 So maybe that's where we going
7 to go but -- you talk to other countries, in
8 Europe or down in Germany, at (Native word), the
9 largest horse show. I was down there just
10 promoting tourism, we had a booth there. We
11 talked to a lot of people overseas. They know
12 about things about tar sands, what's happening in
13 Alberta. They know about those things. They say
14 -- that's only thing that was brought up to me is
15 that, yep, we really like what Canada has said,
16 give our there. The only thing we don like right
17 now is that tar sands, what is happening there.
18 A lot of people overseas that
19 come to a country that's well protected. Could be
20 really great for tourism, you build it up right
21 and all that. But all of you guys can really
22 think about is how many places left like this?
23 Not that much. Like I said before, we seen it all
24 coming because we're isolated and plus we're
25 trying to keep everything in tract here, because 97
1 there's not going to be that much places left if
2 we let this one go.
3 I'll leave it at that.
4 MR. DOXTATOR: Good afternoon,
5 my name is Luke Doxator, D-O-X-T-A-T-O-R. I am
6 the (muffled) manager for TNG. I'm here today
7 just to present on some of the work that we've
8 been doing and our staff have been doing in
9 regards to the moose decline within game
10 management zone 5D.
11 As we're all aware, the numbers
12 are down significantly and it's no surprise to any
13 body kind of thing. Knowing the amount of
14 activity that David has been talking about, if we
15 look at those maps there, the notice of intent
16 blocks, the ones that were in harvest and
17 everything else kind of thing, it just staggers me
18 that people are proposing more activity within the
19 territory.
20 We were all there at a site
21 visit at Fish Lake, and when you come down the
22 road and you see that opening of the beautiful
23 lake there and it just amazes me. My first time
24 there.
25 I'm not Chilcotin. I'm Oneida 98
1 from Ontario, but it just amazed me what the
2 Chilcotin have within their backyard. So just as
3 a comment I guess.
4 I guess first off, again, I
5 would just like to thank Tl'esqox for hosting this
6 and being their territory, within their community.
7 I worked here for eight years in a few different
8 capacities. I have a huge heart for the community
9 and this is why I chose to present here, Tl'esqox,
10 it's where I feel comfortable. I have to give
11 credit for everyone presenting because I'm nervous
12 as hell to here present. Hats off the everyone
13 else.
14 So through the strategic
15 engagement agreement that TNG has with the
16 province, we --
17 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr.
18 Doxtator, would you mind if we stopped for a
19 moment now? It's 2 o`clock. I make it precisely,
20 so that's when I was asked to have a moment of
21 silence for those who passed away.
22 MR. DOXTATOR: Of course.
23 --- Moment of silence
24 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Please,
25 proceed. 99
1 MR. DOXTATOR: Like I was
2 mentioning, through this strategic engagement
3 agreement that we have with the province, in 2012
4 TNG put in a request to deal with the concerns of
5 the harvesting activities within the caretaker
6 areas --
7 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr.
8 Doxtator, this time just slow down a bit.
9 MR. DOXTATOR: All right.
10 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
11 MR. DOXTATOR: The caretaker
12 areas of Tl'esqox, Yunesit'in and Xeni Gwet'in.
13 Since the mountain pine beetle epidemic the
14 members expressed they feel there has been more
15 harvesting within their area, which they have not
16 been able to see as many moose to provide for
17 their families.
18 So through our monthly
19 meetings, we've a joint resource council meeting
20 and a Chilcotin stewardship council meeting which
21 is made up of members of each Chilcotin community.
22 And then the joint resource council is a meeting
23 that we have with government and licencees and
24 other proponents, in regards to different
25 referrals and activities. 100
1 So with the -- Gwet'in put in
2 their request -- like I said, community members
3 expressed a huge concern with the amount of
4 activity within the backyards and just not being
5 able to see as many moose and not provide for
6 their family.
7 From that, we developed a sub
8 committee called the South Chilcotin Stewardship
9 Planning Area. That work is continued today.
10 There was a point in time over the past year we
11 met bi-weekly on this with licencees, with
12 government as well in a facilitated manner where
13 we can come up with some kind of agreements, some
14 kind of work plan for the south Chilcotin area.
15 The one thing that was visibly
16 noticeable that there was no moose corridors
17 identified within the south Chilcotin area. We
18 were able to get those established. We have
19 commitment from the licencees of the moose
20 quarters.
21 Take a look at the map to my
22 right. The green map portions of the map, that is
23 all the moose corridors within the south Chilcotin
24 area. Thanks, Mary. She's our GIS analyst from
25 TNG. 101
1 So those were not identified
2 ever within the south Chilcotin area. As members
3 -- have expressed -- like I said, there is a ton
4 of activity that's been happening within that
5 area.
6 So it was a huge victory for us
7 to be able to have some corridors identified.
8 There's commitment from the licencees, that they
9 were going to staying out of them. If, for
10 whatever reason, they do want to go into there,
11 again the dialogue has to happen with us. So if
12 they are looking to take out 10 hectares within
13 that area, we have to work with them to see where
14 that other 10 hectares for the (muffled) activity
15 corridors will be kind of thing.
16 So we built a relationship
17 throughout this year which was -- which is huge.
18 The respect level has improved greatly on both
19 sides working, espeicially working with government
20 and with licencees. So I do have to give everyone
21 profs for that.
22 With those identified, we also
23 identified certain areas where they have time
24 lines identified of where they are planning on
25 harvesting, from zero to 14 months from five years 102
1 to 10 years and 10 years beyond, kind of thing.
2 Like I mentioned, they have committed those
3 corridors which they know are hugely important
4 kind of thing.
5 One of the other projects that
6 we were able to get out of that, they did a lot of
7 work, accumulative effects, I guess study within
8 the area, including hydrology, access, and just
9 harvesting in general kind of thing.
10 They were hoping, with the
11 Scott McNay (ph) report, he's the independent
12 biologist that did up a report on behalf of the
13 province. That his findings were going to be on
14 the be-all-and-end-all kind of thing of what is
15 happening with the moose out there. What are the
16 contributing factors? Was it identified as top
17 the priority, one, two, three, four?
18 Unfortunately that report was
19 not able to identify that. Although a lot of work
20 has happened, it's far from being completed.
21 We were anticipating and hoping
22 that things could be identified. There's a lot of
23 speculation that it's First Nation hunting, that
24 it's harvesting, that it's road access, et cetera,
25 et cetera, predation. But things have not been 103
1 identified to exactly what they are, and that is
2 what we're continually working on.
3 In regards to other projects
4 that TNG has taken on to assist with the moose, we
5 were able to get additional funding through our
6 strategic engagement agreement, so we've allotted
7 money for a Chilcotin wildlife policy.
8 The purpose of the policy is to
9 assist the bands with dealing with wildlife issues
10 that come up within their traditional territories.
11 Our goal and our mandate is to have a policy
12 completed by December of this year and signed off
13 by the chiefs.
14 Another component of the
15 project is an educational component. We are
16 currently developing and compiling educational
17 material to present and distribute to the
18 communities. These educational components
19 include, but are not limited to, sex
20 identification of moose, firearm training and
21 trapping courses.
22 We feel that trapping horses,
23 for instance, seems to be one of the biggest hot
24 topics for the communities is because of the
25 predation predation aspect that are having the 104
1 effects on the moose.
2 We're also having a monitoring
3 program. It's a boots-to-the-ground program where
4 we're looking to have -- we have some booklets
5 developed. It's based on a volunteer basis where
6 these booklets are handed out to the communities.
7 It's for observing wildlife. It's not to record
8 what you harvest or anything like that. It's just
9 about what has been observed out there.
10 Just because of uncertainty, we
11 chose to do that monitoring program as a baseline
12 for us so we can compare that to what -- as years
13 go on, what people have been able to see, like
14 from the hunters and gatherers and people working
15 in the bush type of thing, so it's a baseline
16 study for us.
17 We've also implemented an
18 independent research study on cutlocks within the
19 south Chilcotin area.
20 The purpose of this study was
21 to look at the harvesting blocks and identify the
22 lack of protection for wildlife and put a cost
23 associated with changes to the way industry is
24 doing business.
25 From the Chilcotin point of 105
1 view from the membership that we've talked to, no
2 one is happy with the harvesting. There's not
3 enough wildlife tree patches. The buffers around
4 wetlands isn't strong enough. So what we've asked
5 the biologist to do is put a cost towards that so
6 we can deal with the licencee to make simple
7 changes like that. So instead of having a road
8 straight, for instance, you know, what's it going
9 to cost to put a bend in the road for the line of
10 sight for predation or hunters, et cetera.
11 We feel that this is a great
12 project that is going to have some amazing results
13 instead of having business done as usual. And so
14 we're just waiting for the report on that, which
15 should be completed within the next month here.
16 So as I was stating earlier,
17 these are things that the Chilcotin are doing at
18 the TNG level to help with this decline.
19 By no means is this a recovery
20 strategy. We're hoping the work we are doing will
21 be implemented within a recovery strategy, that
22 the province is going to be responsible for. But
23 we feel we're the ones that need to make the first
24 steps and try to make the changes that are needed,
25 because, as we all know, the moose numbers are 106
1 down and we just can't continue as normal. Thank
2 you.
3 MR. LA PLANTE: Thank you,
4 Luke.
5 For the record, my name is J.P.
6 LaPlante. I'm the mining oil and gas manager for
7 the Tsilhqot'in National Government. Thank you to
8 Toosey for the warm welcome and fine lunch.
9 Good afternoon Panel members,
10 chief, counsel, respected Elders, youth community
11 members, Taseko Mines Limited and guests.
12 I'm here to explain the
13 baseline status of Chilcotin traditional lands and
14 to build upon what David and Luke have already
15 shared. And, in particular, the area approaching
16 Nabas and Tezton Biny and how this baseline status
17 affects aboriginal interests, including rights,
18 current use and other valued ecosystem components
19 that's are under examination by the Panel.
20 This is important for the
21 Panel, we believe, because the Proponent and
22 others need to understand how these relate to the
23 significance of cumulative *environmental effects
24 from the proposed New Prosperity project.
25 The most important issue to 107
1 understand is that the Proponent's assessment of
2 the baseline conditions, including all of the past
3 human-caused impacts up to this point in Chilcotin
4 territory is severely deficient.
5 As with other aspects of this
6 mine proposal and its environmental assessment,
7 the Proponent has taken a silo approach to each
8 (muffled), which does not integrate the baseline
9 issues to present a wholistic, comprehensive
10 picture of the baseline. If the baseline picture
11 is deficient, then, so too, is everything that
12 follows including the impact assessment and the
13 significance of the residual effects.
14 We note that a standard
15 approach to assessing cumulative impacts is to
16 develop future scenarios of what might happen,
17 scenarios that are bounded by reasonable and
18 realistic views usually done collectively with
19 representatives from all affected parties
20 regulators and proponents, so that everything
21 agrees on the scenarios, or the one scenario that
22 might be selected for assessment.
23 The Proponent did not apply
24 this kind of robust methodology to this exercise
25 and, therefore, we have before us no realistic 108
1 future scenario with which to assess the
2 cumulative effects of the project.
3 With the help of the
4 Tsilhqot'in National Government's GIS analysts, we
5 have provided some basic maps demonstrating the
6 baseline status of Chilcotin lands and waters
7 approaching Nabas and Tezton Biny. Different
8 provincial land tenures and industrial activities
9 have been mapped based on provincial government
10 data.
11 In the room here with us are 13
12 maps, and I'll be walking us all though these to
13 explain each tenure and activity, and it's a
14 little bit out of the way, but behind me is
15 *accumulative map that as all the tenures and
16 activities overlaid, and I'll point to it.
17 If you can bear with me, I
18 would actually wonder if you would be up for
19 standing up and walking as a Panel and it may be
20 some of the Proponents wish to walk around the
21 room to better see the maps on the wall.
22 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: What is your
23 plan for the maps after this presentation is
24 finished?
25 MR. LA PLANTE: You can keep 109
1 them. They are also CR number 924. It was
2 submitted August 7th so you may have it on your
3 computer as well.
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: But what I
5 had in mind was these specific maps -- I'm not
6 looking to keep them. I just wanted to know
7 whether they will be taken down right after your
8 presentation and if they are up for the rest of
9 the afternoon, then we can use it as a break to
10 check them out.
11 MR. LA PLANTE: That's fine as
12 well. I'll quickly explain each one and leave you
13 to that.
14 So the first map which is
15 closest to the door is a hill shade map. It
16 provides a good starting point to situate
17 yourselves. Just for the scope of what we have
18 before us on each map, most of the maps, almost
19 all of them, are the same actual spatial area.
20 We focused on the Nabas region
21 so as to provide an adequate resolution to these
22 activities and the existing baseline. But,
23 please, note that it does not reflect broader
24 Chilcotin territory and packs and activities
25 outside of the scoped area. 110
1 Bounded on the bottom left is
2 Chilko Lake. The top left are the Tsi deldel
3 reserves north of Puntzi Lake. To the middle
4 right is where we are today, Toosey, and the
5 bottom right are the south Chilcotin mountains.
6 Included in the first map are
7 Chilcotin reserves in red; the proposed mine and
8 transmission line in orange; the no shooting zone
9 around the mine site and the one kilometre
10 transmission line right-of-way buffer are in
11 dashed lines. Also included are major roads and
12 provincial parks.
13 The second map, which is
14 immediately to the right by the first one is a
15 mineral tenure map. It provides an overview from
16 July with data from July of this year of mineral
17 tenures and provincial database.
18 It should be noted that there
19 significantly large series of tenures both in the
20 upper Taseko as well as straddling the
21 transmission line. I believe the transmission
22 line tenures are, in themselves, a result of this
23 mine proposal. They were recently staked within
24 the last five years or so.
25 I'm not exact on that. I 111
1 didn't double check. If needed I could get that
2 date.
3 There would be no doubt
4 increased exploration pressure if the mine were
5 approved. For industry this is a natural progress
6 and I understand that. But without the land
7 question or proactive land use planning being
8 resolved and negotiated between the Chilcotin and
9 the province, this can have significant impacts on
10 sensitive areas of Chilcotin territory that have
11 not been protected through the provincial land use
12 planning process of the 1990s.
13 The third map is the range
14 tenure map, and it's -- the tenures are in purple.
15 It is range as well as intensive hang (ph) and
16 grazing. As is obvious, the vast majority of the
17 terrirotry is already tenured. This has a direct
18 effect on the users of the Nabas area who do not
19 have easy alternatives to turn to in order to find
20 range in grazing areas as the previous Panel
21 concluded.
22 The next map, which is in
23 various shades of brown, is a guide tenure map.
24 Again, as you can see, the area around the mine
25 site is completely tenured. Many Chilcotin, 112
1 however, do obtain employment with these
2 outfitters or own the tenures themselves. But
3 that said, it does represent competition for game
4 that can have impacts on Chilcotin rights to food
5 and ceremony.
6 The next map has different
7 colours, and it is a trap line tenure map. The
8 trap line tenures are currently managed by the
9 province of B.C. Many years ago there was an
10 initiative to combine smaller trap lines held by
11 individual band members into larger trap lines
12 that belonged to the First Nation community as
13 whole.
14 Current trap line rules specify
15 that each individual or entity is only able to
16 have tenure to one trap line at any given time,
17 and there are several trap lines registered to
18 individual First Nation members with an
19 understanding the communities are entitled to trap
20 there as well.
21 Every effort has been made to
22 ensure that the map contains than the trap lines
23 held by Tsilhqot'in communities and community
24 members, but there could be omissions.
25 The Xeni Gwet'in trap line is 113
1 in two pieces but is part of the same singular
2 tenure, and the eastern trap line as we know
3 encompasses the proposed mine site.
4 According to the GIS data
5 provided by the company, the area affected by the
6 no shooting zone is just over 59 square
7 kilometres. This is most certainly significant to
8 the Xeni Gwet'in and the Yunesit'in because any
9 good trapper takes a firearm with him or her to
10 ensure humane harvesting and to provide
11 protection.
12 The next map is a fee simple
13 and current Land Act tenure map, and that's
14 immediately behind yourselves. The clear polygon
15 boxes represent surveyed parcels and shaded
16 polygon boxes are private lands and the green
17 polygons are current Land Act tenures as of July
18 2013.
19 You'll notice that significant
20 portions of areas around the roads, especially
21 Highway 20 have been surveyed and parcelled, and
22 around the mine site there are Land Act tenures.
23 This certainly affects Chilcotin's ability to do
24 -- to exercise their rights.
25 The next map to your left is a 114
1 road networks map. This is existing road
2 networks. It clearly demonstrates that the Nabas
3 region is an area where the road density is very
4 low as compared with other areas east of the
5 Taseko River.
6 This is significant for the
7 grizzly impact assessment because a mine being
8 built would no doubt create new roads, even if
9 they were totally restricted to mine employees.
10 Based on experience, the
11 Chilcotin strongly disagree with the company's
12 claim that there would be almost no new roads
13 created as a result of the mine.
14 Not included in the project
15 description includes roads accessing the three
16 tailings impoundment dams for both construction
17 and maintenance purposes, the numerous soil stock
18 piles, a water treatment plant, the seepage ponds,
19 both below the main embankment but also near Big
20 Onion Lake, Wasp Lake, roads to the de-watering
21 pumps, roads accessing water pipelines from below
22 the ridge near Big Onion Lake, roads to the Taseko
23 Lake off-channel, roads which maintain access
24 points to the transmission line, roads to other
25 proposed -- and roads to other proposed fish 115
1 habitat compensation sites.
2 Just as important but something
3 different to consider are improvements to existing
4 roads; upgrades to the 4500 Road; upgrades to
5 existing logging roads, which access the
6 transmission line; upgrades to roads that access
7 the Taseko Lake off-channel; and other fish
8 habitat compensation proposal sites have not been
9 assessed as part of the company's cumulative
10 effects assessment.
11 The remains to be seen in
12 sincere accounting for the realistic increase in
13 roads, road density and road quality. I further
14 question the Proponent's assessment of its ability
15 to encourage others to close roads when they are
16 not the responsibility of this mining company.
17 Lastly, the mine would most
18 certainly encourage additional exploration around
19 the mine resulting in exploration trails and the
20 need to improve other trails to access those
21 sites.
22 None of this has been
23 meaningfully accounted for, espeically on impacts
24 to grizzlies and moose, or the ability to
25 meaningfully implement mitigations that are being 116
1 proposed.
2 The next two maps -- I'm going
3 to speak to the first one.
4 The eighth map is a bird's eye
5 view of existing timber harvesting in the region
6 with log blocks represented by a few slightly
7 different shades of yellow. This map and the next
8 reveal the startling extent of land disturbance in
9 the area. For this reason, it is incredulous that
10 the Proponent has summed up the impacts of
11 forestry on the Chilcotin could simply, and I
12 quote from page 36 of its June 6 information
13 response. Quote:
14
15 "The effects of the increased rate of
16 salvage harvesting from 1985 to 2007 are
17 primarily limited to road infrastructure
18 and related access issues as other
19 values associated with forest were
20 already being naturally altered or lost
21 to the mountain pine beetle
22 infestation."
23
24 This statement reveals a total
25 lack of integrated analysis of the cumulative 117
1 effects between forest harvesting and the proposed
2 mine. It is also entirely consistent with what
3 the Proponent heard in the last hearing and
4 continues to here in these hearings from Chilcotin
5 communities.
6 Important to this discussion is
7 not just what the mine adds incrementally, but has
8 already been impacted or lost. Taseko Mines
9 Limited has ignored loss of use of spiritual
10 sites, lose of use of trap lines, loss of harvest
11 of traditional foods, berries, medicines, and a
12 decline of moose and deer.
13 All of this is cumulative.
14 Forestry is no doubt a significant factor in the
15 cumulative nature of infringements of these rights
16 and aboriginal uses, as found by the B.C. courts
17 as well as the B.C. Court of Appeal in the William
18 Case. It is partly about access as the company
19 has acknowledged, but that is certainly not the
20 whole picture.
21 I would also like to draw your
22 attention to what I describe as the last remaining
23 in tact zone east of the Taseko River.
24 If you look north on the
25 proposal outline you'll see that logging has 118
1 occurred all the way north on the east side of the
2 river. The Nabas, Tezton and Big Onion Lake areas
3 are truly the last places where the Tsilhqot'in
4 can exercise their rights unimpeded east of the
5 river. This has special significance for
6 comunities like Yunesit'in and other like Toosey,
7 whose caretaker areas have been significantly
8 affected by logging.
9 The next map is similar, but
10 has pink polygons to represent logging blocks that
11 were proposed as of January 2013. Many of them
12 have already been logged, since the map layer was
13 created in January.
14 However, this map does not show
15 burnt areas, such as the Chilko fires, the fires
16 in the Brittany Triangle and fires elsewhere which
17 impact wildlife habit and current use.
18 You'll see the harvesting
19 extending to the bottom right of the map and
20 inward, that is encroaching on the south Chilcotin
21 mountains and Big Creek park. Not in the park but
22 very close. These are high value moose habit, as
23 is the Nabas region, and I believe Luke can --
24 David covered these well.
25 I would also like to draw your 119
1 attention to the area which are not logged. It is
2 noticeably the shape of the title and rights case.
3 This is no coincidence.
4 However, it must be
5 acknowledged that these areas were slated to be
6 logged, and but for the blockades and legal
7 actions taken by the Xeni Gwet'in to protect core
8 lands, they would have been logged many years ago.
9 The protection of these areas,
10 including Nabas and Tezton Biny, were never the
11 result of goodwill of government or industry. The
12 dynamic continues here today.
13 I'm going to turn to -- there
14 is two sets of maps. The map in the corner gives
15 you have a sense of the game management zones and
16 the units, so when we're talking about what the
17 population density decreases are, that provides
18 the percentages. That was -- correct me if I'm
19 wrong, but I believe 2008 and 2012.
20 The next map is the provincial
21 moose habit model, as well as some areas which
22 have been negotiated to not be logged in order to
23 provide moose connectivity corridors. The
24 negotiation is the result of the drastic moose
25 decline and Chilcotin efforts. 120
1 You'll note with interest that
2 -- or one of the important factors is that the
3 mapped areas of high value without roads is shown
4 in green and the Nabas and Tezton Biny region is
5 one of them.
6 It's also important to note
7 that despite what I've heard -- and I'm pretty
8 sure this is still the case -- that there would
9 indeed be harvesting of in tact stands as a result
10 of the transmission line. Worse, the
11 *transmission line would contravene the no
12 harvesting, or delayed harvesting negotiations
13 that have occurred between the Chilcotin and the
14 forest licencees. These are the corridors, and
15 you'll see there is an overlap between the green
16 corridors and the transmission line area.
17 The next map which is behind me
18 is -- it's the final map provides all the tenures.
19 It appears to me to be a "Where's Waldo" map for
20 the Chilcotin cultural use.
21 I was able to find they
22 discrete tiny spots that did not have a tenure of
23 some kind, but good luck finding them.
24 For the Chilcotin, the *New
25 Prosperity proposal is the straw that could break 121
1 the wild horse's back.
2 As you can see start and clear
3 before you with this map, there have already been
4 significant activities and impacts in Chilcotin
5 territory over the past 150 years, and those
6 activities continue.
7 They have independently and
8 correctively alienated communities from their
9 lands, and in some cases those *activities have
10 effectively or literally destroyed important
11 areas.
12 Nabas and Tezton Biny represent
13 a jewel in the Crown, in a way, and is a Chilcotin
14 crown. This in tact and nearly pristine ecosystem
15 provides an important buffer for cultural
16 resilience, a gathering place, a quiet place,
17 sometimes a windy place, a food fishery, a place
18 to teach our kids how to fish, a seriously
19 effective backup food fishery for when the salmon
20 are not returning in health numbers, a medicine
21 gathering place, a tea gathering place, a cultural
22 school, a homestead, hunting grounds, trapping
23 grounds, grazing grounds, a place to pray and
24 given your adult name, as Dwayne explained in
25 Yunesit'in, a place to conduct sweats, a place for 122
1 young and old to gather, a refuse a Chief Percy
2 describes, and a place for the Tsilhqot'in to have
3 their own vision for the future.
4 These kinds of qualities have
5 been and are being lost elsewhere in Tsilhqot'in
6 territory. It's not say that they are not in
7 other important places, but those sites are
8 important for their own reasons, such as salmon
9 fishing at Farwell.
10 However, these other places are
11 different and in no way do they -- or can they
12 replace Nabas and Tezton Biny.
13 So to rob the Chilcotin of this
14 jewel is not just and should not be -- for that
15 reason this project should not approved. I hope
16 these maps and spatial data and the background on
17 the moose decline will help you to understand
18 that.
19 Given this baseline, I would
20 like to provide the Chilcotin perspective on the
21 companies cumulative effects assessment, and --
22 very brief. I'm almost done.
23 The Chilcotin find it
24 disturbing that in the company's environmental
25 impact statement on page 395 different agencies 123
1 and governments are listed that the Proponent
2 consulted to determine what other projects and
3 activities merit inclusion in the assessment for
4 this review. You'll note that there are no First
5 Nations listed in that list.
6 Further to this, the sites
7 included in the assessment as shown on the map in
8 the EIS on page 402 does not show logging or other
9 types of tenures which affect Chilcotin current
10 use and rights to harvest moose, caribou, deer
11 grizzly, fur bearing animals, medicines, berries,
12 clean water, teas. I could go on, but I think
13 these maps make that clear.
14 It certainly does not provide
15 sufficient resolution to understand the baseline
16 cumulative effects that the Chilcotin experience
17 in their territory already, and, therefore,
18 activities and tenures which should be considered
19 in the Panel's review.
20 We also note that the company
21 chose to apply criteria to its assessment that
22 fell outside of the requirements of the Canadian
23 Environmental Assessment Act of 2012, or the
24 Cumulative Effective Assessment Practioner's
25 Guide. 124
1 Fortunately, the Panel raised
2 this very issue as its first information
3 efficiency in November of last year.
4 The response of the company to
5 this deficiency statement? In a letter from Mr.
6 McManus on November 27th, 2012, a very informative
7 that the pattern of behavior from the Proponent,
8 which is repeated on many levels to other serious
9 technical and cultural issues.
10 In this instance, they argue
11 with the Panel stating that its cumulative effects
12 assessment was not deficient and, therefore, they
13 did not have to reassess cumulative effects
14 according to a less restrictive inclusion
15 criteria.
16 The Panel disagreed and made it
17 clear that, indeed, the company should have to
18 assess cumulative effects for all key indicators
19 that for which, one, there was a residual adverse
20 project effect identified, and, two, the effects
21 of other projects and activities act cumulatively.
22 The Panel then went on to
23 request this specifically with the inclusion of
24 past forest harvesting activities.
25 The Proponent's responses since 125
1 that date have mischaracterized, or severely
2 under-estimated, the impacts of other activities
3 that Chilcotin current use in aboriginal rights,
4 including title.
5 Therefore, I urge the Panel to
6 seriously consider the information we are
7 presenting here today when assessing the
8 significance of the proposed mine's cumulative
9 effects particularly on fish, moose, grizzly bear
10 and Chilcotin interests, rights and title,
11 including grave sites, cultural schools and
12 gathering areas.
13 I won't go into detail to
14 describe what I like to think of as the leaps of
15 faith which occur between the company's logic
16 about the potential effects on a (muffled) and the
17 inclusions that there are no significant effects.
18 However, a few particular
19 responses are worth including as illustration of
20 the issues. This helps demonstrate the issue that
21 I raised at the outset of my presentation about
22 how the effects have been assessed in isolation
23 and without any integration. This is not best
24 practice, and in our opinion falls sort of what is
25 required under the Act. 126
1 First, the Proponent assumes
2 that the mountain pine beetle epidemic and
3 subsequent logging are not, in themselves,
4 significant activities for consideration with
5 regard to aboriginal interests or other effects.
6 I quote from pages one and two of the Proponent's
7 information response 1A from June 6th of this
8 year. Quote:
9
10 "Effects of the increased rate of
11 forest harvesting are primarily limited
12 to road infrastructure and related
13 access issues. This assumption has
14 important ramifications for the
15 Proponent's assessment of cumulative
16 effects on Aboriginal rights and current
17 use. Notably one assumption is that
18 Chilcotin rights and value ecosystem
19 components are not affected by the
20 mountain pine beetle epidemic itself, or
21 that the logging of various partially
22 affected by mountain pine beetle is not
23 an incremental effect."
24
25 Think back to your trip to 127
1 Tezton Biny and Big Onion Lake. Yes, there are
2 small relative portions of these forests affected
3 by the pine beetle. However, after spending time
4 in walking that area, I can assure you that it
5 remains healthy as a result of the extensive
6 wetlands, the spruce and balsam forests, and the
7 meadows and lakes which provide important habitate
8 for wildlife and plants.
9 This would not be the same with
10 the mine, or if it were completely logged.
11 Second, is the company's claim
12 that no new access roads will created by the
13 transmission line right away. The transmission
14 line would certainly prolong and enhance access to
15 these areas, likely in perpetuity, as well as
16 creating a corridor as one speaker in ?Esdilagh
17 described Gibraltar's transmission line a shooting
18 gallery.
19 Third, the company is claiming
20 compensation credit for actions and negotiations
21 already being advanced by Chilcotin irrespective
22 of this mine proposal.
23 On page 32, and similarly on
24 page 36 of its June 6 response 1B, the company's
25 states it is, quote: 128
1
2 "...committed to a number of other mitigation
3 measures that will substantially offset the
4 effect of forest harvesting on hunting and
5 wildlife in the area, benefits that would not
6 likely occur without the project."
7
8 I assume they mean the New
9 Prosperity project.
10
11 "These include facilitation of access
12 management planning with First Nations,
13 regulators, land owners and and other
14 stakeholders in order to decommission
15 roads and trails along the transmission
16 line corridor during construction, where
17 feasible, and improve barriers."
18
19 End quote. That's a page 32.
20 This is commitment is hollow
21 given that the Chilcotin are already undertaking
22 these initiatives with regulators and forest
23 licencees to close roads due to the moose decline.
24 It appears to us that this mitigation proposal is
25 in fact old news in this region and should not be 129
1 considered a mitigation that provides compensation
2 for the impacts of the transmission line, or the
3 mine. In fact, the transmission line would likely
4 be a negative factor in closing some of the areas
5 being considered.
6 With that, I'm done, and thank
7 you very much for your attention and thank you to
8 Toosey for this time to present here today.
9 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
10 Mr. LaPlante, Mr. Setah and Mr. Doxtator.
11 Do we have any questions for
12 the three folks?
13 Taseko?
14 MS. SMITH: I should have asked
15 this a long time ago, and I recognize this is a
16 bit late in the game.
17 As you know, my role is as a
18 community -- an aboriginal liaison with the
19 company. I'm just curious. I recognize that in
20 your department that your to work closely with the
21 committees and Proponents on to coordinate, review
22 et cetera. But I also note that on the -- as a
23 director, you're duty at TNG you list as -- that
24 you're aimed to protect Fish Lake and the proposed
25 New Prosperity mine. 130
1 I guess moving forward in
2 respect to communication, what is your role within
3 TNG and does it allow for communication?
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Just for
5 certainty, to whom human is that question
6 directed?
7 MS. SMITH: To JP LaPlante. It
8 just helps me reflect on how the presentation and
9 your questions have been derived.
10 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr.
11 LaPlante?
12 MR. LA PLANTE: I would prefer
13 to have some clarification how that is relevant to
14 this. It's not clear how --
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Why don't
16 you help us and explain what it is that you do
17 with TNG, that would --
18 MR. LA PLANTE: Sure.
19 I'm the mining oil and gas
20 manager, so I don't have my job description in
21 front of me but it includes dealing with all
22 referrals that are processed at the Nation level
23 relating to mining oil and gas. So that could
24 include, for example, engagement through the
25 environmental assessment, it can include very 131
1 early engagement with mining exploration, which is
2 often the majority of the work that we do at TNG.
3 So as you are aware, as was
4 explained a bit by Crystal and others, there's
5 different levels of engagement that occur. Some
6 of that is government to government through the
7 permitting, and some of that would deal with
8 Proponents to work on best practices for
9 exploration, for example.
10 I'll give you a good example of
11 where we're really happy, one Proponent --
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I prefer the
13 Coles Notes version. Let's stop there.
14 Ms. Smith, is that what you
15 were looking for?
16 MS. SMITH: I guess just for
17 some more clarification. I mean, it states that
18 your primary duty is to protect Fish Lake from the
19 proposed New Prosperity. So the communication
20 between myself and yourself open, I guess? Just
21 trying to clarify as well where your comments and
22 questions come from.
23 MR. LA PLANTE: I think that
24 communication has always been open, and I recalled
25 receiving a letter from Ms. Gizikoff before the 132
1 EIS was submitted, and I believe this is on the
2 record with the Panel, and there was very clearly
3 a willingness by the chiefs to engage with some
4 simple ground rules that were about respect. If I
5 recall, I think we were given 15 days to provide
6 comments to the company before you submitted your
7 EIS and --
8 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I think the
9 question was much simpler than that answer.
10 MR. LA PLANTE: The answer yes,
11 and it always has been.
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
13 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you. It's
14 Catherine Gizikoff here.
15 Mr. Setah, a couple questions
16 if you don't mind, based on your familiarity with
17 the landscape.
18 Since the Forest And Range
19 Practices Act came in 2004, somewhere about that,
20 we have heard comment from many people on the land
21 that road de-commissioning isn't being done to a
22 satisfactory way. That new act allows licencees
23 to kind of block them off but it doesn't restrict
24 ATVs.
25 Since you've been on the land 133
1 for a long time, can you comment on the
2 performance that you've seen from forest licencee
3 ands and how it's changed for roads?
4 MR. SETAH: Just as a reminder,
5 my last time was -- a job was '08, and I don't
6 know anything from 'o8 to now that changes that
7 have been made.
8 As at times when all the
9 councillors -- yes, we ask for a lot of
10 de-activations. But if you look at a main road
11 that's going into an area, like 4500, I mean, I
12 could drive all alongside that road and I could
13 see clear cuts on both side of me. I mean, all
14 you have to do is you got to have a good
15 (muffled)drive, good scope, and you got to
16 practice having a long shot, and you can --
17 hunting the easy.
18 I mean, de-activation is not
19 all the issues on hunting on the logging road. I
20 mean, you could de-activate some portions of it.
21 But, yes, ATVs will still be able to go through
22 there. While my understanding is that you are not
23 supposed to hunt on those things, but it's very
24 low regulated, that I see anyway. You are always
25 supposed to keep your game with it, stuff like 134
1 that, but you are not supposed to hunt on it. But
2 then, again....
3 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you for
4 that. I agree.
5 With regards to other portions
6 in Xeni's caretaker area, like Britanny Triangle.
7 Because it -- I've heard reference to the fires,
8 but because it hasn't had the logging effect, have
9 you seen an increase of hunting pressure in that
10 area from either local aboriginal people or
11 non-aboriginal people?
12 MR. SETAH: If you are only
13 referring to the Brittany Triangle?
14 MS. GIZIKOFF: Or -- I guess
15 the Brittany triangle is certainly very evident on
16 the aerial photo in front of us here, but it's --
17 illustratively it's surrounded by clear cuts and
18 I'm just wondering -- if moose population numbers
19 are down, do people tend to go into areas like the
20 Brittany Triangle to hunt moose more than in the
21 past?
22 MR. SETAH: Like, when we see
23 regulation or hunting season opens up -- I mean,
24 we talk to a lot of the hunters that come out.
25 And you would be surprised what you hear, actually 135
1 been told where to hunt.
2 And if you're -- I'm looking at
3 Brittany Triangle. I mean, they are lots. I
4 rarely see anybody else in there, and if I do it's
5 either on horse back or something. The reason why
6 it's like that is accessibility.
7 When you look at something like
8 4500 Road it's a good place for hunting also. But
9 the accessibility is there, and ATVs and all that
10 can go on there.
11 MS. GIZIKOFF: Do you still see
12 less moose in the Brittany Triangle area?
13 MR. SETAH: It's affected all
14 over. I mean I don't -- like, I don't only look
15 at 4500 Road but I look at people with a guiding
16 licence that we got there, throughout all that
17 this affected.
18 And the numbers are probably
19 hit pretty hard with the accessibility of the area
20 is the reason why. I mean, when you got that you
21 got a lot more people going in there and you've
22 got (muffled) a little higher. Might be not that
23 good right now, but you give that about 10, 15
24 years ago, it's a lot higher.
25 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you. 136
1 This question is for Luke to
2 follow-up on that. You were referring to the
3 south Chilcotin stewardship committee and working
4 with the forest licencees. That recent moose
5 study that was presented from that talks about
6 than education component, and you referred to it
7 as well, educating.
8 Do you know if there is a
9 movement to educate community members about
10 co/calf hunting? Has that been included in that?
11 MR. DOXTATOR: There has been
12 some discussions with that. Each band is going to
13 be different of what they choose to do. I think
14 the bottom line, it's everyone's inherent right to
15 hunt for sustenance, kind of thing, but I do know
16 some of the bands are going towards no cow/calf
17 harvest.
18 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you.
19 David also mentioned something
20 about the what's the next hunting season, what's
21 the plan? I'm assuming he's meaning for Forest,
22 Lands and Natural Resources plan for
23 non-aboriginal hunting.
24 Do any of you know whether or
25 not Forest, Lands and Natural Resources are 137
1 planning anything specific with regards to wolf
2 management to address this problem? That's
3 identified in the report as well.
4 MR. SETAH: I know both (ph)
5 management -- I don't pay too much attention to
6 what's the outside plan is, but I know I grew
7 up -- I mean, we have a good understanding that we
8 need to balance everything out there. And that's
9 a lot to do, even wolves. We need to balance them
10 out too. We understand all that -- we're out
11 there on the land.
12 But also the question you're
13 asking Luke is too also about them, about cow/calf
14 and all that hunting. Way back in the olden days
15 that we're taught about the hunt and what to hunt,
16 what type, and all depends on even if you are
17 hunting moose you're taught a certain way.
18 But you also heard the story on
19 Douglas residential school affected a whole bunch
20 of us. You know that, so why ask the question?
21 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you.
22 I would like to ask either JP
23 or Luke to explain this closest map here with the
24 purple. I assume that's proposed logging.
25 Somebody mentioned the other 138
1 day about looking at logging within the rights
2 area, just starting discussions on that now.
3 Maybe I misunderstood that. But are those
4 proposed blocks in the vicinity of Fish Lake
5 proposed by Tolko in concert with TNG?
6 MS. THUROW: Hi, my name is
7 Mary Thurow, I'm chair analyst for TNG.
8 T-H-U-R-O-W.
9 So the question was about the
10 purple blocks. Those are -- that's the notice of
11 intent data. It's what licencees create or
12 distribute amongst themselves every other month.
13 That map right there is made
14 with the most current amalgamation that we have
15 done at TNG, which is as of January 2013, so it is
16 not blocks that we necessarily agreed upon. It's
17 what the licencees have provided post to their FTP
18 site, which we are welcome to pull down as our
19 other licencees or the public, or whoever wants
20 to, to be aware of what their potential plans are.
21 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thanks, Mary. I
22 just hadn't seen those ones before from when we
23 were looking at proposed blocks.
24 MS. THUROW: Right, and part of
25 the reason you don't see that is because it's no 139
1 longer in part of the forest practices -- used to
2 be -- done by the government regularly, the
3 development plans, and that's not done. We kind
4 of want to look at everything together.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
6 Ms. Thurow.
7 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you, Mary,
8 I'm sure you had a hand in these maps.
9 And the ones showing the high
10 valued moose habit which was available through I
11 think the Ministry's response, they provide us a
12 link to some of that as well and those corridors.
13 I think that's very valuable
14 information for us planning the transmission line
15 because we do have room to align and that feeds
16 very well into both that and habit compensation
17 planning as well. Very useful information.
18 I'll get down to a last couple
19 questions so we can use to other members. Thank
20 you for your patience.
21 JP, you had indicated that the
22 Chilcotin, through this committee, was looking at
23 access management planning already. So am I to
24 assume, then, you agree that access road
25 de-commissioning is effective? 140
1 MR. LA PLANTE: I'm not an
2 expert in any way, so I can't speak to that. I'm
3 also not on that committee. I don't know if Luke
4 would like to add to it, but it's obviously one
5 tool in a broader -- it's one quiver in your bow,
6 and I don't know how effective it is compared to
7 others so I can't really speak to it, but it's
8 obviously something that is of interest to the
9 Chilcotin.
10 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you, I was
11 waiting to see....
12 MR. DOXTATOR: Yeah, sure.
13 Like JP said, it's just one tool that we're
14 looking at in regards to access because it's
15 something that keeps getting raised from different
16 Tsilhqot'in members at our different meetings.
17 Definitely not the answer to the decline but it's
18 -- we're hoping that it is one of the tools that
19 we can use.
20 MS. GIZIKOFF: Absolutely,
21 thank you.
22 Just curious, is the committee
23 seeking funding for road de-commissioning of the
24 non-tenured roads and trails?
25 MR. DOXTATOR: The road system, 141
1 we're at the infancy stage with that because the
2 licencees and government cannot agree upon who's
3 responsible for certain roads.
4 MS. GIZIKOFF: I have asked
5 before whether or not Taseko could join this
6 committee. I believe it's facilitated with the
7 Fraser Basin Council, or they provide some
8 services for that.
9 Would the TNG consider our
10 participation in a committee like that in the
11 future?
12 MR. DOXTATOR: I guess with
13 that, I've only been in the position for a year so
14 I haven't seen any kind of request for TML to join
15 a committee. But what I can do is research all
16 the invites you've done before, the e-mails and
17 correspondence and reply back.
18 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you.
19 One final question for JP. You
20 referred to the grazing tenure map and potentially
21 lack of range for tenure to -- for Nemiah cattle
22 to go.
23 Because Nemiah gave up their
24 tenure in 1999, I think Roger put that on the
25 record, not disputing that, because of their 142
1 historic grazing. I'm just curious, can you give
2 me some numbers as to how many cattle there might
3 be and for what grazing period, because for us to
4 attempt to look at mitigation and additional
5 forage, without those grazing tenure numbers we
6 don't have that.
7 MR. LA PLANTE: I don't have
8 that information either. Sorry.
9 MS. GIZIKOFF: So you don't
10 actually know if there is additional forage out
11 there because you don't know how many cattle there
12 are?
13 MR. LA PLANTE: Can you ask
14 that again? I don't understand that.
15 MS. GIZIKOFF: You made
16 reference to the area along the transmission line
17 and mine site being fully allocated to grazing
18 tenure and that there was no potentially
19 additional forage, and I was just curious as to
20 what you based that on.
21 MR. DOXTATOR: Looking at the
22 map.
23 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you. I
24 have nothing further. Sorry.
25 MR. JONES: Very short 143
1 questions.
2 I guess it applies to both of
3 these two maps that are up front. I'm curious
4 about the difference between the kind of darker
5 green and what looks to be a yellowy-green.
6 MR. LA PLANTE: That's an
7 excellent question. I have the canned answer
8 because it's a GIS analysis answer, and -- so
9 thanks to Mary.
10 The existing blocks are drawn
11 in yellow and are partially transparent. This
12 results in a variety of shades of yellow on the
13 paper output due to the following reasons:
14 The ortho image under the
15 yellow cut block may be treed, as in the ortho
16 image is out of date, as in it's an old photo but
17 there's been logging since, and dark in appearance
18 as a result. Or not treed. And the image shows
19 trees have already been removed, and light. So
20 those are the different possibilities.
21 And there's -- as well there's
22 two different log blog data sets that were
23 required in order to provide the most accurate and
24 comprehensive coverage possible, so the same cut
25 block may appear in both data sets which will 144
1 affect the shape of the yellow drawn on the map.
2 Does that make sense?
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Let me try
4 to rephrase it in English.
5 The various shades of yellow
6 all mean the same thing.
7 MR. LA PLANTE: They are all
8 logged. It's just whether the ortho photo, like
9 from a plane, had as forest (ph) when the photo
10 was taken, and it's been since logged.
11 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Let the
12 record show that Ms. Thorow nodded her head when I
13 said, "They all mean the same thing."
14 MR. JONES: That was the
15 question I was trying to ask.
16 My other question is: What
17 time frame does that represent?
18 MR. LA PLANTE: I could point
19 you to the bottom right of the map. They provide
20 the actual source data and the date.
21 MS. THUROW: And these are
22 built using the data sets suggested -- the log
23 blocks used in the data set suggested by the
24 Ministry of Forest employees who are GIS analysts
25 who say -- when we ask them what are the best, 145
1 most current, most accurate, most real data sets
2 to use, those are the ones used in the creation of
3 this.
4 MR. JONES: Let me try it
5 another way.
6 Does that represent a period of
7 logging activity that's the last five years or the
8 last 50 years?
9 MS. THUROW: We would have to
10 look in the metadata from the province -- be easy
11 to answer that question because it's their data.
12 So I could try to find that out if that is
13 something you are curious on.
14 It means it's been logged and
15 it's not harvestable. There's not trees there
16 now.
17 MR. JONES: So it's not yet
18 harvestable?
19 MS. THUROW: Correct.
20 MR. JONES: Okay, that answers
21 my question.
22 The other one was: How do you
23 go about determining moose travel corridors? How
24 do you do that?
25 MR. DOXTATOR: That was 146
1 information provided by the province when they
2 were doing their cumulative assessment. We didn't
3 come up with that data. That was from the
4 province.
5 MR. KUPFER: I didn't follow
6 that. Would you mind repeating that? Were you
7 satisfied with that answer?
8 MR. JONES: Yes. What I got
9 was it comes from the province.
10 MR. KUPFER: Comes from the
11 province. Okay.
12 I have a question.
13 MR. DOXTATOR: Can I clarify on
14 that? In regards to what the corridors are
15 meaning in regards to modelled moose habit, that's
16 where they derive it from. Again, using the
17 cumulative impacts (inaudible).
18 As Mary at GIS pointed out,
19 there is a difference between the corridors and
20 the moose model habit kind of thing.
21 Sorry, correction. It was
22 developed by licencees with discussions with
23 government and ourselves.
24 MR. KUPFER: Thank you.
25 This may be an inappropriate 147
1 question, and I'm sure your legal counsel will
2 stop me if it is.
3 Given that the Tsilhqot'in have
4 rights and are able to practice in many areas of
5 their rights, do you have authorities over how
6 this -- how the animals are accessed in that
7 triangle, or the parts where you do have the
8 rights? Is this part of -- do you have any
9 control there?
10 MR. NELSON: Thank you, Dr.
11 Kupfer.
12 I'm not going to stop you from
13 asking the question. I was hoping I can assist
14 you with it. But I don't fully understand, so
15 perhaps if you could reframe the question or ask
16 it again?
17 MR. KUPFER: The group, this
18 committee meets trying to understand access,
19 trying to understand what has happened and what
20 might happen. They have access to all the people
21 who have various kinds of rights in that area. I
22 would like to know, do you have any rights to take
23 action on the things that are being discussed,
24 such as reducing or eliminating roads or access to
25 a particular area? 148
1 MR. LA PLANTE: JP LaPlante
2 here.
3 I think there is a
4 misunderstanding. The south Chilcotin is a
5 bounded negotiation area. It does not include the
6 court case area.
7 MR. KUPFER: Thank you.
8 MR. LA PLANTE: And that
9 affects the -- obviously the mine proposal is in
10 the court case area, so the negotiation over
11 access and forest management is east of that area.
12 MR. NELSON: Perhaps more
13 broadly, the Tsilhqot'in framework agreement that
14 you've heard about excludes the court case area,
15 because of the complications they are trying to
16 resolve that while the litigation is ongoing and
17 it's more a working relationship for the rest of
18 Chilcotin territory.
19 MR. KUPFER: Thank you very
20 much. That's very helpful.
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Would you
22 make a distinction between the cumulative effects
23 on moose and the effect on the Tsilhqot'in people
24 that's caused by the cumulative effects on moose
25 vis-à-vis the Tsilhqot'in ability to hunt moose? 149
1 MR. LA PLANTE: Can I try and
2 repeat your question? I was wondering if David
3 may be the best to answer it.
4 You're wondering if the decline
5 in moose is a reflection of cumulative impacts to
6 -- or cumulative effects on moose are an
7 indication of cumulative effects on Tsilhqot'in --
8 other Tsilhqot'in rights?
9 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Let me
10 rephrase both you and my colleague here. I've
11 indicated I struck my question badly.
12 We will need to determine if
13 the cumulative effect on moose is significant. We
14 will also need to determine if the ability of the
15 Tsilhqot'in people to hunt moose has been
16 significantly adversely affected.
17 It seems to me that those are
18 two different questions. Can you help me to
19 understand from your perspective how they are
20 different?
21 MR. LA PLANTE: Maybe -- I'll
22 pass it off to David, or Luke, but one way to
23 think about it is if the existing baseline is
24 already at a critical point, near to a threshold
25 we or we don't know -- in fact the data, what 150
1 Scott McNay (ph) report that's been referred, and
2 we can undertake to provide that report. It's
3 clear they don't know. They are not sure of the
4 -- how serious it is and whether it can be
5 recovered.
6 So your question about the
7 significance would be a question of -- is it the
8 straw that broke the horse's back, I guess.
9 That's the metaphor that I would use, and like --
10 I guess it's your job and it should be seriously
11 considered that the mine proposal adds
12 cumulatively to an already very stark situation in
13 Tsilhqot'in territory.
14 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Mr. Nelson?
15 MR. NELSON: There's a legal
16 aspect to your question as well, and that's why
17 I'm standing, because it's an issue that often
18 comes up in terms of impact on rights. How is
19 that related to impacts on wildlife. And I think
20 that's what you are asking.
21 I think something to keep in
22 mind is they are related but not identical in that
23 there might be a decline in moose population.
24 We've heard there is a substantial decline in
25 population, but I think -- 151
1 MS. GIZIKOFF: I can't here
2 you.
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Slow down.
4 MR. NELSON: But it's
5 incumbent, I think, on the Panel and others to
6 take the extra step of asking what does that mean
7 in real world terms for people's ability to go out
8 and hunt. And so, for example, it's not a matter
9 of simply whether there's moose somewhere in the
10 territory that people can hunt. If you are
11 displacing people from a 60 kilometre, 60 square
12 kilometre area like we are at her, where that's a
13 prime moose hunting habit, that could be an impact
14 on rights even if there's a healthy moose
15 population on the far reaches of the Brittany
16 Triangle.
17 It's much harder for people to
18 access. It impacts people's ability to take their
19 children out and teach them to hunt. So there's
20 an extra cultural dimension in determining the
21 significance on cultural use of the declining
22 moose population.
23 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
24 That will do for now.
25 Mr. Setah, did you have 152
1 something to add?
2 MR. SETAH: Just trying to
3 balance off your question there.
4 This is how I see your
5 question; is that yes, we do have a problem with
6 the declining in moose and your question might be
7 related to (muffled), First Nation, like
8 Chilcotins are reacting to -- like your question.
9 If that's what it is, I mean....
10 I talked to a lot of my people
11 out there and I talked to them about the concerns
12 about the moose count going down, and they talked
13 to me about the past history, why it's down and
14 all that. But current of what we need to do now
15 is that -- a lot of my people talk about this too,
16 lot less hunting of moose. There's some of even
17 our people talking about that they should maybe
18 shut the moose hunting down completely. I hear
19 all the talks about that.
20 I know as for me, I was like
21 still in leadership. I'll bring it in front of
22 the people, ask for direction.
23 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
24 Mr. Setah. That helps.
25 I have one other question that 153
1 is much more trivial. I think it was you, Mr.
2 Doxtator, who said trapping horses has effects on
3 moose. And it may or may not have been you but
4 can somebody help me to understand?
5 MR. DOXTATOR: No, what I --
6 trapping horses. That's weird. I said trapping
7 courses because --
8 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
9 That's just fine.
10 The Panel has no more questions
11 for you.
12 At this point I think we'll
13 take a ten-minute break. We'll reconvene at 3:16.
14 --- Recessed at 3:06 p.m.
15 --- Upon resuming at 3:19 p.m.
16 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Good
17 afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
18 Here is the latest update on
19 the sequence. The next speaker is Michelle Tung
20 with the Upper Fraser Fisheries Conservation
21 Alliance, followed by Nora Johnny, Teresa Billy,
22 Valerie Johnny, Rosanne Haller, Natika Johnny, and
23 Isabelle Dodd.
24 So at this time, I would like
25 to call Michelle Tung. 154
1 To Ms. Tung and others, it
2 looks to me like we are not going to get through
3 our list of speakers. So without compromising the
4 substance, if you could -- and without just
5 speaking more quickly, if you could escalate
6 things that would be much appreciated.
7 MS. TUNG: I saw we were
8 slotted for half an hour, but we don't plan to
9 take up that much time.
10 PRESENTATION BY CHIEF FRANCIS LACEESE:
11 CHIEF FRANCIS: Good afternoon.
12 I'm Francis Laceese, Chief of Toosey here.
13 I just wanted to do a brief
14 discussion on why salmon and fish is so important
15 to us as a peoples for Tsilhqot'in.
16 We have fish in areas all the
17 way up and down the Chilcotin River, also parts of
18 the Fraser River, and that has been that way for
19 time immemorial. Our people live off salmon.
20 It's one of their main sources of food and they --
21 right now is a very busy time. That's where a lot
22 of our people are catching, preparing, preserving
23 many different ways. Today -- lot more different
24 ways.
25 But it's very important that we 155
1 try to maintain that way of life for our peoples
2 and we teach our young people the importance of --
3 you know, that in order to salmon fish to survive
4 they have to have a clean environment. So this is
5 just one of the methods that we, our people, they
6 do a lot of canning. Lot of different ways.
7 This is really important to us
8 as a Chilcotin people. So I'll just keep it
9 brief. We have a lot of speakers so I would like
10 to say the importance of the salmon for our
11 people. Thank you.
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
13 Chief Francis.
14 Ms. Tung.
15 PRESENTATION BY MICHELLE TUNG & GORD STERRITT:
16 MS. TUNG: Hello, good
17 afternoon. My name is Michelle Tung, T-U-N-G and
18 I'm here with the Upper Fraser Fisheries
19 Conservation Alliance. I'm also here with Gord
20 Sterritt, who is the new executive director of
21 that organization.
22 First of all, I just wanted to
23 thank the Toosey Indian band and Chief Francis and
24 council for inviting us to speak today.
25 Just very briefly, I know that 156
1 the Panel is familiar with my organization, but
2 just a very quick overview.
3 The UFFCA is a First Nations
4 run not-for-profit society. It is a
5 geographically-based organization with a First
6 Nation board representing all five sub regions.
7 The mandate of the UFFCA is to
8 advance fisheries and aquatic related interests of
9 First Nations in the Upper Fraser watershed.
10 I've been asked to speak at
11 this community hearing by Toosey,
12 chief-in-council. In 2012 Toosey Indian band
13 engaged the UFFCA to support the development of
14 Toosey's land use plan that was developed in 2011
15 with a focus on aquatic resources and fish
16 research.
17 A major part of the Toosey land
18 use plan and policies are focused on the
19 protection of fish stocks and the fishery that the
20 Toosey Indian band community relies on. And
21 Toosey has asked that I speak at this community
22 hearing to highlight Toosey's and the Chilcotin's
23 salmon fisheries and the fish stocks that support
24 them for the Panel's consideration of risks and
25 effects. 157
1 I wish you could see my photos
2 a bit better because I'm so proud of them. I took
3 this picture two weeks ago. This is the
4 confluence where the Chilko meets the Chilcotin
5 River.
6 The Toosey Indian band and
7 other communities of the Chilcotin Nation harvest
8 salmon from both the Fraser River main stem and
9 the Chilcotin River and its tributary streams.
10 The majority of salmon
11 harvesting is conducted on the Chilcotin River
12 watershed. I took this picture a couple weeks
13 ago.
14 The primary species harvested
15 of the (inaudible) species is sockeye, although
16 all species, including chinook and steelhead,
17 support seasonal and unique fisheries and cultural
18 practices of the Chilcotin.
19 Again, this is a photo I took
20 last Saturday. I wish you could see it better.
21 This is a photo of Farwell
22 Canyon bridge, which is the main location for the
23 traditional dip net fishery for Toosey and the
24 Chilcotin First Nation, as well as the northern
25 Shushwap First Nation. 158
1 Farwell Canyon is located just
2 about 15 minutes south of here, about a short
3 drive, if you haven't had a chance to see it, and
4 I took this picture last Saturday at around 9 p.m.
5 Again, this photo was taken at the same time. I
6 apologize for the low quality but I just wanted to
7 show you that at the time that I happened to be
8 passing by a few days ago, if you can make out
9 there's a number of folks out on some of the
10 traditional dip net sites on the river there. And
11 at the time we counted -- this was 9 p.m. on
12 Saturday. We counted nine nets in the water, over
13 25 people on the fishing sites, with range of
14 children and youth and Elders and everyone was
15 out.
16 In 2012 over 32,000 sockeye
17 were harvested in the Tsilhqot'in fishery, the
18 majority drawn from Farwell Canyon. I also wanted
19 to point out that picture in the corner is one of
20 several pulley mounts that were built onto the
21 bridge with the new bridge to allow First Nation
22 to be able to haul up their fish up the bridge
23 rather than having to carry it up those steep
24 cliffs. People bring their own pulleys and their
25 own ropes and their own sacks. 159
1 I remember last year around
2 this time maybe later in August when I was on my
3 way up to gathering at Fish Lake to help pick up
4 fish, somehow I ended up hauling fish on the
5 bridge.
6 Chief did Francis did speak to
7 the significance of salmon to the Toosey and the
8 Tsilhqot'in culture and way of life, and others
9 have spoken about it today in terms of the
10 importance of living off the land.
11 Definitely this is something
12 that is very evident just a few minutes' drive
13 from here at Farwell Canyon. As well, these
14 salmon values are imbedded in Toosey's land use
15 plans and policies.
16 So as you may recall, the UFFCA
17 participated in the aquatic environment session of
18 these hearings. We submitted two reports and made
19 one presentation regarding, number one, the stock
20 status of salmon species, number two, the
21 relevance of stock status and health to
22 Tsilhqot'in interest and use of the resource.
23 During the aquatic
24 environmental -- during the aquatic environment
25 session, we did hear from federal and provincial 160
1 agency experts, as well as independent assessors
2 repeatedly concerns raised about impacts on ground
3 water contamination and water quality impacts to
4 the Taseko River that may have been underestimated
5 by the Proponent and not adequately addressed in
6 the EIS.
7 Just for some reference, I
8 provided some excerpts from Environment Canada,
9 Fisheries And Oceans Canada and B.C. Ministries
10 and Mines.
11 Building on what we've learned
12 from these hearings, and given the information
13 that was provided at these sessions, we've been
14 asked to reiterate a number of the issues that are
15 evident with the improved clarity provided as a
16 result of these hearings.
17 So as already indicated in the
18 UFFCA stocks status report that we did submit,
19 overall Chilcotin fish stocks are generally not of
20 a very healthy status.
21 As previously highlighted,
22 there has been some concerns raised regarding
23 potential impacts to downstream environments,
24 including the Taseko River.
25 The Taseko River sockeye stock 161
1 is a unique biodiversity unit, or conservation
2 unit, under Canada's wild salmon policy. The
3 stock is documented to be significantly diminished
4 in abundance and has a status classified by DFO as
5 being provisionally red zoned, inferring it is at
6 risk of extirpation.
7 The UFFCA report concluded any
8 activity that could induce further risk or
9 negative consequence for the Taseko sockeye
10 population is incongruent with Canada's salmon
11 management policy and incongruent with
12 precautionary principle. In other words, we would
13 consider it imprudent that Taseko River sockeye
14 has a zero tolerance for risk in its current
15 state.
16 In regards to other fish stocks
17 within the Taseko, chinook and steelhead have not
18 had their status assessed according to wild salmon
19 policy criteria, but are diminished in abundance
20 and being managed towards conservation and
21 rebuilding.
22 In the Chilcotin watershed
23 there is only one strong salmon conservation unit;
24 that is, the Chilko sockeye or the Chilko "S"
25 stock. And this stock supports the largest 162
1 proportion of Chilcotin sockeye harvest and is
2 integral to all fisheries that rely on Fraser
3 River sockeye. That includes marine, commercial,
4 recreational and First Nations fisheries.
5 The Chilcotin salmon fishery
6 has increasingly become reliant on this one stock
7 of fish, with the limited and declining options to
8 fish sockeye outside of the Chilcotin. Any risk
9 of potential downstream impacts on the Chilko
10 River should be considered within the context of
11 the Chilcotin "S" sockeye (inaudible), increasing
12 importance to Toosey, the Chilcotin, and all
13 Fraser sockeye fisheries.
14 Just to recap, some
15 considerations regarding aboriginal fisheries that
16 were highlighted in our second submission
17 regarding the relevance stock status to Chilcotin
18 interest and use of the fisheries resource.
19 The UFFCA concluded that any
20 risk of potential downstream impacts on the
21 Chilcotin River should be considered within the
22 context of the Chilko sockeye's increasing
23 importance to all Fraser sockeye fisheries.
24 Chilcotin Nation fisheries for
25 coho, chinook and steelhead are all presently 163
1 constrained by the abundance and/or status health
2 of these stocks. These fisheries each support
3 unique cultural practices.
4 And, finally, without any
5 additional factors that may impair the
6 productivity of the Chilcotin watershed salmon
7 resources, the Chilcotin present interests in
8 these stocks is at considerable risk of being
9 compromised relative to their rights and their
10 belief system.
11 Just an overall comment that I
12 know was highlighted in our previous submissions.
13 Any potential risk should be
14 considered within the context of the precautionary
15 approach and principle as adopted by DFO and other
16 Federal departments. And just as reference I
17 included the definitions provided by DFO and
18 Environment Canada.
19 So as I present to you today,
20 it is becoming evident that the Fraser sockeye,
21 including the Chilko sockeye, are turning at
22 levels far below those forecasted this year, and
23 many of those returning are anticipated to perish
24 en route to their spawning grounds due to the
25 Fraser River's record high temperatures. 164
1 This has resulted in closures
2 being implemented on First Nations' food, social
3 and ceremonial fisheries throughout the Fraser
4 basin and may result in constraints to access the
5 fish in the Upper Fraser as well.
6 So on that note, I would like
7 to end with this quote by Justice Cohen in his
8 conclusions from the commission of inquiry into
9 the decline of sockeye salmon in the Fraser River,
10 and he concluded:
11
12 "The idea that a single event or
13 stressor, a smoking gun, is responsible
14 for the 1992 to 2009 decline in Fraser
15 River sockeye is appealing but
16 improbable. Throughout the hearing, I
17 heard that sockeye experience multiple
18 stressors that may effect their health
19 and their habitat, and that can cause
20 death at various stages of their life.
21 Several witnesses emphasized the
22 importance of considering the cumulative
23 effects of these stressor rather than
24 the stressors in isolation."
25 165
1 With that, thank you for your
2 time. I promised I would keep it short.
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: And you did,
4 and I'm sure the people of Toosey appreciate that.
5 First, do we have any questions
6 for Ms. Tung? Taseko?
7 MS. WILLISTON: Cheryl
8 Williston for Taseko.
9 You stated that the Taseko
10 River sockeye stock was in the red zone. Do you
11 know how long it's been classified at that status?
12 MS. TUNG: I'm afraid I don't
13 have the year for you. I could probably dig it
14 out of the submission that we put -- let me see.
15 Was it July 19th?
16 MS. WILLISTON: Even a
17 guesstimate. Would it have been that way for ten
18 years, five years, a year?
19 MS. TUNG: I'm afraid I
20 wouldn't know. It would not be difficult to find
21 out.
22 MS. WILLISTON: Maybe you can
23 answer this, maybe you can't. So further to that
24 you stated --
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Just before 166
1 we proceed, my boss over there makes me identify
2 the time during which any such undertaking will be
3 met. Would you give us an estimate as to when you
4 can deliver that information?
5 MS. TUNG: I imagine by the end
6 of this week? By the end of tomorrow should be
7 easy.
8 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: The end of
9 tomorrow would be appreciated.
10 MS. TUNG: How I do get that
11 information to you?
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: You can
13 e-mail it to New Prosperity mailbox.
14 MS. WILLISTON: So your next
15 bullet on that slide talked about the steelhead
16 and chinook in the Taseko River and the fact they
17 were being -- your words were, managed towards
18 conservation and rebuilding.
19 I'm just curious if you know
20 why those stocks would be managed that way whereas
21 the sockeye aren't being, or maybe they are.
22 MS. TUNG: Yes, I can speak to
23 that.
24 So this speaks to the
25 methodology of the original report done by UFFCA 167
1 in terms of describing stock status. We did not
2 collect our own information and assess the status
3 of species ourselves. We looked --
4 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Ms. Tung?
5 MS. TUNG: Pardon me.
6 We were looking at where have
7 stocks already been formally assessed through
8 formal processes. For some species, there have
9 been formal processes for some others. This is
10 covered in detail in that submission. But just to
11 be -- to give you some indication, only sockeye
12 have been submitted through the wild salmon
13 policy. Coho, for example, have been considered
14 through the (Native word) endangered species
15 process. Steelhead and chinook have not gone
16 through this formal process.
17 So in our method to be able to
18 characterize status, instead what we looked at in
19 the absence of formal stock status assignment, we
20 looked at the nature in which DFO is managing that
21 stock and then infer to their status.
22 Again, this is not my area of
23 expertise. I would either refer back to the
24 report in more detail or, if you had follow-up
25 questions, I could turn that to the primary 168
1 author, who is Brian Todd.
2 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: When you
3 refer to "the report", you are referring to the
4 report that you submitted to us?
5 MS. TUNG: That's correct.
6 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: And that
7 would have been submitted?
8 MS. TUNG: July 19th.
9 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: You don't
10 happen to know it's CEAR number, do you?
11 MS. TUNG: Not off the top of
12 my head.
13 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: That's
14 perfectly okay.
15 MS. WILLISTON: I guess that
16 answers my question. Thanks.
17 MR. YELLAND: I think I've got
18 some fairly simple questions here, more around
19 clarification.
20 The 32,000 fish that you said
21 were pulled last year, were they pulled from that
22 area that you had on the picture?
23 MS. TUNG: Yes. That was the
24 total estimate from DFO within the Chilcotin
25 territory, and the majority would have come from 169
1 Farwell Canyon.
2 MR. YELLAND: So throughout the
3 whole territory. Okay.
4 Is that -- like, is there a
5 commercial fishery included in that?
6 MS. TUNG: No. This is FSC
7 fishery; food social ceremonial.
8 MR. YELLAND: So all First
9 Nation.
10 MS. TUNG: This was entirely
11 First Nation fishery.
12 MR. YELLAND: And that is not a
13 commercial fishery?
14 MS. TUNG: No, it is not.
15 MR. YELLAND: Also we said --
16 well, you said that the Taseko River sockeye is
17 classified as a red zone.
18 So when the First Nations are
19 fishing -- and maybe this is more a question for
20 chief Francis -- how do they tell the difference
21 between the Taseko River sockeye and the other
22 salmon that are running at the same time?
23 MR. STERRITT: Good afternoon.
24 My name is Gord Sterritt, S-T-E-R-R-I-T-T, the
25 executive director for the Upper Fraser Fisheries 170
1 Conservation Alliance.
2 In recent years with -- we've
3 implemented management measures to protect weaker
4 stocks. Taseko is just one of them. There is
5 also the Byron (ph) and other upper Fraser stocks
6 that we're very concerned about. We've had window
7 closures on the Fraser River and right into the
8 Chilcotin River. And hopefully protecting the
9 weaker stocks, allowing them to get back and then
10 so we can direct our fisheries on the stronger
11 summer stocks like the Chilko stock.
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I think the
13 question was: If you're a fisher down there, how
14 do you tell the difference?
15 MR. STERRITT: So you don't
16 tell the difference. You fish at certain times of
17 the year and there is -- there's no commercial
18 fishing on those weaker stocks. There's window
19 closures throughout the Fraser to protect them.
20 As you get closer to their home, the natal
21 streams, the Taseko River and the spawning
22 grounds, First Nations here through a dip net
23 fishery, selective fishery, can harvest some
24 portion of those stocks. They -- but for the most
25 part, there's a closure. We know sort of the 171
1 approximate window timing when we can ensure the
2 bulk of the fish get to their spawning grounds and
3 then if you're fishing on the tail end they are
4 mixed in with some of the summer stocks they get
5 caught with those fish. You can't tell the
6 difference.
7 MR. YELLAND: Thank you. Just
8 one final question. Would an increase in spawning
9 habitat help out with these problems?
10 MS. TUNG: Are you referring
11 specifically to the Taseko sockeye conservation
12 unit?
13 MR. YELLAND: No. Any increase
14 in spawning habitat for salmon, trout, whatever,
15 would it help?
16 MR. STERRITT: I think in --
17 right now in the Chilcotin area, I think there's
18 adequate spawning area. There could be other
19 factors that are cumulative impacts from any kind
20 of activity within the Fraser watershed in the
21 marine areas that are impacting these fish. And
22 that I don't think increasing the spawning habitat
23 in this area would be the answer addressing the
24 cumulative impacts that are effecting the fish
25 from the headwaters right to the marine area would 172
1 be an effective method.
2 MR. YELLAND: Thank you.
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: And just
4 while you are composing your question, Mr. Jones,
5 the USFCA report is CEAR number 651.
6 MR. JONES: Thank you.
7 Mr. Yelland answered all my questions but I just
8 wanted to make sure I understand the answer to the
9 one about differentiating between Chilko sockeye
10 and Taseko sockeye and I -- I think the answer was
11 that they actually -- that those two runs actually
12 occur at different times, distinct times. There
13 might be some overlap but generally it's a
14 distinct window?
15 MR. STERRITT: Yeah, basically
16 four or five clarifications through DFO of the
17 runs. You've got the early Stewart run heading to
18 the Stewart Lake area. You've got the early
19 summer run composed of -- of several groups, the
20 Byron (ph), the Taseko, some of the Thompson
21 stocks, and then you come in, so the early salmon,
22 they got a different run timing in (inaudible).
23 And then you have the summer run which is the
24 Chilko, the Quesnel, Lake Stewart (ph), the
25 Stalaco (ph), as well as few others in the lower 173
1 river, and then the late timing mostly goes to the
2 Thompson. So there's different timing groups that
3 the DFO managers. We prefer to have the -- it --
4 well, I won't go there.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I take that
6 as a yes.
7 MR. JONES: I understand. That
8 answers my question.
9 SPEAKER: And if I may add to
10 that just drawing on some of the details that were
11 included in the report that we just referenced.
12 What Gord refers to applies to
13 in-river fisheries, so First Nations fisheries
14 that are -- that occur in the river. That does
15 not apply to mixed-stock fisheries that typically
16 occur in the marine environment.
17 And what the report that the
18 USFCA submitted was that the current management
19 framework implemented by DFO does not reflect the
20 vulnerable status of Taseko sockeye, and that when
21 you look at the harvest of Chilko or of sockeye
22 that are harvested as part of directed fisheries
23 on the Fraser sockeye, a large proportion will
24 come from Chilcotin River and a proportion of that
25 will also be Taseko sockeye. And that the harvest 174
1 rates over the Fraser -- on the Fraser sockeye
2 will have a disproportionate implications for
3 stocks of varying vulnerability.
4 MS. GIZIKOFF: Sorry. Just a
5 couple of quick questions. Thank you.
6 I would like to ask whether or
7 not you have worked with the Fraser Basin Council
8 on any projects. I see from your report that
9 most, if not all of your funding is from DFO.
10 MS. TUNG: Can you give me -- I
11 know the Fraser Basin Council very well and I know
12 that I worked with their folks who have focused on
13 fisheries, I'm not sure which or what type of work
14 you would be referring to.
15 MS. GIZIKOFF: Well, in any
16 capacity. Your report also refers to your
17 alliance working on coordinating and facilitating
18 watershed levels forums and I know the Fraser
19 Basin Council has been active in that as well
20 and useful in accessing the Living Rivers Trust
21 Funds and I think some of that has run out now,
22 but with Chief Percy Guichon and myself both as
23 directors on that council, I was curious whether
24 that's been explored as a funding body or
25 supportive body to access dollars or projects? 175
1 MS. TUNG: The UFFC actually
2 has received funding through the Living Rivers
3 Trust Fund through a funding project called the
4 Fraser Salmon and Watershed Program, that was
5 called --
6 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Whoa. Whoa.
7 MS. TUNG: -- oh, sorry. I
8 know this too well.
9 The UFC yes, to answer your
10 question, yes, the Fraser Basin Council and the
11 Pacific Salmon Foundation jointly delivered a
12 granting program funded by the province and the
13 Federal government focused on the Fraser Basin.
14 The UFFCA has access to that funding over several
15 years and one of the funding sources was the
16 Living Rivers Trust Fund.
17 I also know that the Fraser
18 Basin Council is quite familiar with the work of
19 the UFFCA and, in fact, I've specifically been
20 involved in a collaborative science project
21 involving the UFFCA and coordinated by the Fraser
22 Basin Council.
23 MS. GIZIKOFF: Okay. That's
24 terrific to know. Thank you.
25 We do have hear in all the 176
1 community that we work an interest in accessing
2 more dollars for either research, and obviously
3 with -- what our habit compensation plan is, too,
4 having a group that has skills in facilitating
5 and coordinating meetings with (inaudible) a
6 great value.
7 Thank you.
8 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
9 Taseko?
10 MR. SMYTH: Just a quick
11 question for Chief Francis.
12 Is the Farwell Canyon
13 dip-netting site, is that exclusive to Toosey?
14 MR. STERRITT: It's -- Toosey
15 it's one of the -- their traditional fishing
16 areas, but a lot of the other Tsilhqot'in use that
17 area also, and a few other outsiders are allowed
18 so many fish there, too, if they show up there.
19 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: This may be
20 a little off topic but I want to reduce my guilt
21 about enjoying the salmon for lunch. I'm assuming
22 that the dip netting does not have a significant
23 adverse effect on the salmon stocks; is that true?
24 MR. STERRITT: Yeah, it's true.
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Good answer. 177
1 Thank you.
2 I'm not sure if it was me or
3 what but I didn't understand your message as well
4 the last time, but I have a much better sense of
5 what you have to say this time. So sorry, this is
6 very helpful.
7 Ron wants to know about his --
8 MR. SMYTH: I want to know why
9 you are able to say -- to give that answer, that
10 it doesn't have an effect. What evidence do you
11 have for that?
12 MR. STERRITT: Well dip netting
13 is probably the most selective method of fishing
14 that you can implement. You can dip a fish out,
15 you can have a look at their shape, their -- and
16 whatnot or it could be -- you could look at the
17 species if that's a preferred species, you can
18 release it back into the river unharmed. You're
19 right beside the river, as opposed to gill nets,
20 sane nets where you're squishing, you're singling,
21 same with recreational fisheries, and rod and
22 reel. You are hooking fish, you're injuring them
23 and even if they get off and/or you release them
24 there is still some damage, but with dip netting
25 it's very low impact. 178
1 MR. SMYTH: I don't understand
2 that but surely it's the total number taken that
3 counts.
4 MR. STERRITT: The total number
5 taken?
6 MR. SMYTH: Surely that's the
7 determinant.
8 MR. STERRITT: Are you asking
9 how many fish we know we're able to catch?
10 MR. SMYTH: That would
11 logically follow, but surely it's the total number
12 that is taken which will be the determinant of the
13 stocks, of the surviving stocks, so...
14 MR. STERRITT: People, I mean
15 -- dip netting is labour intensive, but -- so if
16 we know how many fish were allocated to an area we
17 can fish to that number or we try to obtain that
18 number. I'm not sure I quite understand your
19 question.
20 MR. SMYTH: You are putting
21 faith then in DFOs on numbers?
22 MR. STERRITT: Well, no, we
23 don't put faith in DFOs numbers. But we are
24 allocated through licencing, from the DFO communal
25 licencing program certain numbers are allocated 179
1 for the Nations and we try to reach our needs, and
2 whether it's above that number or it's below that
3 number, we understand that there's a conservation
4 concern that we're going to fish smart and we're
5 going to respect that. We need to get fish back
6 to the spawning grounds.
7 And so through that method -- I
8 mean, we can -- I mean, there's a whole bunch of
9 factors, whatever, but we try to meet our needs,
10 make sure that we're getting enough fish for the
11 winter but also respecting the environment and the
12 conservation concerns.
13 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I was going
14 to move on but now you've triggered -- I've seen
15 notices about "No Salmon Fishing in July," give or
16 take.
17 Is that related to trying to
18 protect the more sensitive species that you were
19 describing earlier? A short answer, if possible.
20 MR. STERRITT: Yes.
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Okay. Thank
22 you. That's helpful.
23 Anyway, I really appreciate
24 what you've had to say today. It has been helpful
25 and so I'll thank you and I must move on. 180
1 Our next speaker is Nora
2 Johnny.
3 Ma'am, I'm sorry, I see speech
4 will be read by someone else. Is that correct?
5 PRESENTATION BY NORA JOHNNY:
6 MS. JOHNNY: Hello everyone.
7 My name is Nora Johnny, (Native word) Elder. I
8 was just listening to Councillor David earlier and
9 he mentioned the Fraser and how it used to be and
10 I also did the same thing, I used to pack water in
11 a big wine jug and for drinking and other things,
12 like washing your face, cooking.
13 Can you tell me how the Fraser
14 got polluted?
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: The answer
16 is, I cannot.
17 MS. JOHNNY: Okay. I was
18 wondering if it was part of the Gibraltar Mine?
19 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I think
20 that's a question to which Taseko can respond when
21 you're done, unless you wish to say something
22 right now?
23 MR. JONES: I'm sorry, I missed
24 the first part of the question.
25 MS. JOHNNY: How the Fraser 181
1 River got polluted.
2 MR. JONES: I don't know the
3 full answer to that. I would say that it was not
4 the result of Gibraltar.
5 MS. JOHNNY: Okay. If the mine
6 in Chilcotin gets going, there would be a lot of
7 people, people who are going to work there who are
8 (inaudible) and the people who are coming from
9 other places. They are all going to -- whatever
10 the mine doesn't destroy the people will destroy,
11 the people who are going to work there.
12 And you are saying you are
13 going to put that tailings pond somewhere else? I
14 think that's just the same garbage only in a
15 different pile.
16 So I guess what I want to say,
17 too, is: I don't like the idea of the mine going
18 up there but the job part sounds good for many
19 people. I guess that's about all I wanted to say.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
21 very much, Ms. Johnny.
22 Any questions for her?
23 Taseko, anything?
24 Thank you so much for your
25 presentation. It's important for us to listen to 182
1 the community and to Elders and we very much
2 appreciate your coming forward. Thank you.
3 The next speaker I have is
4 Teresa Billy.
5 PRESENTATION BY TERESA BILLY:
6 MS. BILLY: (In Chilcotin) I'm
7 from Nemiah. Are they talking about mining? It's
8 going to be awful. I don't like that. It's not
9 going to be good: I'm Teresa Billy.
10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She does
11 live here at Toosey. Originally she was from
12 Nemiah Valley, so she knows quite a bit about the
13 Nabas. She also replied that she doesn't like the
14 idea of Nabas being -- not going to be the same
15 way at all.
16 (In Chilcotin) Why do they want
17 to mine in such a big way --
18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She's
19 asking what is the purpose of making the pit
20 bigger than the way it is today?
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: We have
22 translation, so I think we're okay. Thank you.
23 MS. BILLY: (In Chilcotin).
24 It's going to be awful, but there is nothing I can
25 do about it. "I don't know what to say," she 183
1 says, "like, what can I do about it? Even if I
2 talk about pit it's going to happen, perhaps."
3 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: If she's not
4 comfortable speaking we have heard her message and
5 I don't want to push her into speaking but I also
6 do not want to stop her if she wishes.
7 INTERPRETER: She's just
8 translating that. You must be finished, she said.
9 There's nothing I can say, she says.
10 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
11 very much.
12 The next speaker I have is
13 Valerie Johnny.
14 PRESENTATION BY VALERIE JOHNNY:
15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I will
16 be reading a letter that Valerie Johnny did as
17 she's down working on the river today.
18 She writes:
19 "Everyone, my name is Valerie
20 Johnny. I was born here and raised here in
21 (Native word). My proud parents are the late
22 Hellen Willy Johnny and the late Charles Hurst.
23 Both of my parents did a wonderful job bringing me
24 up, I would say. They have taught me so well. My
25 parents raised me to be loving, honest, caring, 184
1 sharing, respectful and loyal. So now I will
2 teach to each and everyone to really think about
3 what each individual has to say and take it into
4 consideration. Don't just let it go over-the-top
5 or sweep it under the rug.
6 Have any of you people ever
7 asked yourself why are you want to go put a mine
8 in, it's just all about money or what? Have you
9 any of you thought about how it would affect us?
10 My guess is no. You never put our thoughts before
11 yours, because all of you are wanting to put a
12 mine in our backyard and if you do that and then
13 you are not only killing our land but you're also
14 killing our culture.
15 We, as First Nations, were
16 brought up to live off the land. Have any of you
17 ever had a taste of -- I guess, you could say you
18 did now, some of you -- fish, moose, deer,
19 berries, et cetera?
20 There is so much out there,
21 wild onions, potatoes, medicine. My belief is no
22 you have never tried our traditional foods, if you
23 want to destroy or land.
24 Let me tell you a few stories.
25 It's a good thing it is only a 185
1 few I remember.
2 As soon as I was old enough,
3 able to walk and talk, my mom sent me with my dad
4 and we went across the river to check my dad's
5 traps. I believe I was probably about six years
6 old. I remember following behind my dad carrying
7 his muskrats after he checked his traps. My dad
8 took me to Saddle Horse Mountain. I asked my dad
9 why they call it that.
10 And he said, there was a horse
11 at the top of the mountain. He said whoever gets
12 to the top can have the horse with a saddle.
13 I did everything with my late
14 dad. Hunting, trapping, fishing, berry picking.
15 Here's a berry picking story.
16 We went picking raspberries on
17 Fish Lake, and that is our backyard. Also, I
18 remember we were driving in the bush slow and we
19 saw a little bear cub. I was rolling down the
20 hill and my mom told me -- my dad -- told my dad
21 to drive faster, the bear might roll into the car.
22 One time, we went hunting across the river
23 sometimes my dad would speed up and my mom used to
24 tell him how are you going to see anything? We're
25 not going to a raise so slow down. 186
1 Another time both my parents
2 took the whole family across the river. She said,
3 we'll just go for a drive and my dad had his rifle
4 and he shot a big buck so we ended up taking
5 longer.
6 So us little kids we were
7 hungry first" -- sorry some of the writing is bad,
8 I can't see what (inaudible) -- "so us little kids
9 was hungry first, that time my parents didn't pack
10 a lunch for us. Well, their thought was we just
11 driving around, we won't see anything or get
12 anything, but my dad shot a buck. And us little
13 kids went fishing in the creek and we caught a
14 fish and my late mom told us to make a fire and
15 cook our little trout. So we did. My niece,
16 Racelle, was so hungry her fish fell out on the
17 stick and into the fire. So much for that.
18 So after hearing a few of my
19 stories, you still want to destroy our land.
20 There are so many things you can explore on Native
21 land.
22 I also want to share my
23 mushroom days last year or maybe two years. Me,
24 myself and late Miranda and Christine, we spent
25 the night in the bush. We got lost in our 187
1 backyard. We had our little dog with us and we
2 tried to follow Christine's dog but ended up
3 getting lost.
4 None of us were scared. It
5 never even crossed our minds. Made a fire and
6 told stories, was one long night especially we
7 only had one bottle of water. We started walking
8 as soon as it got light. Followed a skip trail,
9 came to road. If we went to the left, we would
10 have got found, but no, we went right, ate some
11 wild strawberries that we came across. We kept
12 walking and walking. We took two roads but both
13 roads ended up to be a dead end. Finally, around
14 10 a.m. they found us.
15 I remember Miranda got tired
16 carrying her bucket. She had half a bucket of
17 mushrooms, she ended up leaving it and found it
18 the next day before dark. Christine and I were
19 getting upset with Miranda because she was taking
20 her time, but she waited while she was still
21 trying to pick mushrooms. It finally got dark and
22 made fire.
23 Anyways, one more story. It
24 was all about fish these past few weeks. I've
25 been watching people from all walks of life come 188
1 to our Chilcotin River, people from all over,
2 Alberta, Bonaparte, Ferrier, Kamloops, Hamstone
3 Anaham, (inaudible), Quesnel. People from
4 everywhere came to catch their winter foods. They
5 freeze it, smoke it, char it, ice and save, and
6 quite a bit more fish are going up the river.
7 Anyways think about that.
8 Before you destroy our land.
9 We also have our Toosey gathering every year, we
10 just had it this past weekend. Once again, people
11 from all over came, everyone enjoyed themselves.
12 We have fish cleaning contest and part of that
13 came from the river. (Inaudible).
14 Okay. If you destroy our land
15 then you are taking away all our needs. There are
16 trees, water, medicines. We, as First Nations,
17 use trees for our warmth to keep our children
18 warm, use it for the firewood. Water we really
19 need. You may as well contaminate all our water,
20 our land, and that's what you all want." Sorry
21 this is her writing.
22 "Each and every one of us was
23 brought up with at least one of their parents
24 value. I value everything my parents taught me
25 even though my dad took me hunting and trapping, 189
1 fishing. He told me one day I will be providing
2 for my own family and to this day I am. Being a
3 single mother was one of the things I loved doing
4 is fishing. Went fishing last night, caught about
5 five and brought it home.
6 So think about everything. My
7 stories. If I was to keep on it would end up to
8 be a book. This is only a few stories. So please
9 do not rob us of our land. (Native word), this
10 is. Please take all of what you hear into
11 consideration. How many communities have you been
12 to, and I believe everyone feels the same way as I
13 do. So, no, to the mine.
14 Thank you. Valerie Johnny."
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
16 for reading the message from Ms. Johnny.
17 The next speaker I have is
18 Roseanne Haller (ph).
19 PRESENTATION BY ROSEANNE HALLER:
20 MS. HALLER: My name is
21 Roseanne Haller. I was a surveyor, an archeology
22 surveyor in the '90s.
23 Anyway, Arlene Yipp (ph) was
24 our teacher and the way we did it, we went through
25 the whole block, it's not high potential, low 190
1 potential, where they survey now. We surveyed
2 everything. We marked everything down like the
3 birds, the animals, the trails, watersheds,
4 droppings, whatever we seen in that block, we had
5 to record.
6 So nowadays the -- it's like a
7 lot different and I don't see why. Why did they
8 change it? Is it because they are laze to walk
9 through the whole block?
10 But when Arlene Yipp was
11 teaching us, it wasn't only this community, it was
12 all the six Nations and it was like a few people
13 -- well, it was all women on our crew, there was
14 no men, so we were proud of that.
15 But I'm the one, too, that does
16 the traditional foods, the fishing, the hunting,
17 and -- we're like -- since the logging and
18 everything happening out towards Big Creek,
19 Graveyard Valley, Churn Creek, where the mine's
20 going, we're losing our wildlife. They give
21 permits to the white man where they are all there
22 before us, where they get all the moose and the
23 deer and when we go out there we come back with
24 nothing.
25 I was hoping your archeologist 191
1 was here so I could speak face-to-face with him
2 because I can imagine what they did, they probably
3 just checked the high potential area but if you
4 guys are putting in this mine it should be every
5 inch of that mountain should be surveyed and
6 record everything, everything that is there, and
7 once you know what's there and what lives there
8 and who lives off the land, which I know none of
9 you guys do but we do, it's just not right.
10 I know you guys hear this more
11 than once but I'm saying it again, it's not right.
12 A lot of people say it's not right.
13 You guys enjoyed the dry fish
14 today? Would you guys eat it after the mine is
15 there, where it's going to pollute the lakes and
16 the rivers? Would you dare touch that fish then?
17 Don't mind me, I'm not used to public speaking.
18 But that was one of my most things I wanted to
19 express is the archaeology, because I don't think
20 it's right where it's like low potential. They
21 won't go in that area. But we know what's there.
22 It's our medicine plants, our berries, our trees,
23 which our trees is our medicine plant, too.
24 So like a lot of people don't
25 know the medicine plants but our Elders do and 192
1 there is this one mountain that we were trying to
2 protect it's Wild Tea Mountain, and Tokeco (ph)
3 said they wasn't going to log it. We went out
4 there the next year to pick wild tea and it was
5 logged, so that was a lie from them. It was a
6 whole mountain that was wild tea.
7 They logged half of the
8 mountain and that is why we were trying to save
9 the other half of the mountain, but they said, "We
10 won't log it. We won't log it." But that whole
11 mountain was full of wild tea and because they
12 logged that mountain no more wild tea. It's all
13 gone. Because wild tea it grows in lots of moss,
14 like thick moss, in the shady are, you can smell
15 it through the whole area.
16 It was quite a big mountain but
17 now it's all logged and that's where all the
18 Elders would go from all the six Nations and now
19 they can't go there anymore because it's not there
20 anymore. It's all gone. No more wild tea.
21 Now they have to like look
22 around everywhere else, to everywhere else would
23 be Big Creek, Graveyard Valley, Churn Creek, it's
24 all getting logged.
25 If that mine goes in, there's 193
1 going to be nothing out there. The water is going
2 to be polluted. The wild animals are going to
3 move out. Like they were talking about the moose,
4 right? Sure they move around when they smell that
5 poison they are never going to come back. The
6 deer is never going to come back. There's like --
7 how many acres out there where it's already logged
8 and then now you guys want to take over Fish Lake?
9 Great.
10 That is a big area, isn't it,
11 called (Native word) three miles long and we seen
12 other mines how they destroyed the land and that's
13 why we're trying to save this one, because it's
14 going to destroy our hunting grounds, our fishing
15 grounds, our camping grounds, our medicine plants,
16 everything.
17 So that's why a lot of people
18 here are speaking up and just saying the truth.
19 Like what are you guys going to
20 get out of that mine? Just money? No comment?
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I guess --
22 I'm not sure if you heard me this morning but one
23 of the things that the Panel has tried to explain
24 to people is that we are not the Government of
25 Canada, we are not the company, we are an 194
1 independent Panel appointed to determine the
2 environmental effects. The company is represented
3 over there and will have a chance to say some
4 things.
5 MS. HALLER: I wasn't here this
6 morning, I was doing additional foods.
7 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I respect
8 that. I just want you to understand because you
9 were looking at us and it seemed to be that you
10 were talking to Taseko. And you should know that
11 we are not Taseko and we're not the government of
12 Canada. We're an independent Panel. I just
13 wanted that be to clear. So I -- I appreciate
14 what you are having to say, it's helpful to the
15 Panel but I don't want to stop you.
16 MS. HALLER: I was hoping to
17 meet the archeologist today so I could confront
18 him on his work and the other archeologist that
19 come in to the Chilcotin area.
20 The last archeologist I worked
21 for they were from Edmonton, and they didn't know
22 nothing about the land, they didn't know our
23 medicine plants, they didn't even know what kind
24 of trees were out there.
25 So is that right to bring in 195
1 someone that doesn't know the land? Would you let
2 someone in your backyard if they didn't know? I
3 wouldn't. I would rather want someone there that
4 knows the land and why we're trying to save it.
5 When we were teaching our --
6 when Arlene was teaching us, she had people from
7 coming from all over to, like, our vegetation
8 areas, our waters, our erosion because once you
9 knock down trees and a watershed it's ruined. I
10 don't know how many watersheds we went through to
11 try save but they logged and I went out there
12 recently -- well, actually over the last few
13 years, Big Creek, Graveyard Valley, Churn Creek,
14 and it's in the same areas. There was like
15 underground springs, really clear, nice and cold,
16 and now you go look at them they are brown and
17 gray and dinghy, and you don't even want to try to
18 drink it. So that's what's going to happen.
19 Like there is so many
20 underground springs over there. If you guys
21 really new and checked, like over the land -- I
22 don't mean to, like, stare at you but I like
23 making eye contact when I'm talking, so I'm sorry.
24 Looking this way --
25 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: That's 196
1 perfectly fine. I appreciate that.
2 MS. HALLER: -- but there was
3 like just about every block we surveyed there was
4 watersheds and they were like nice and clean and
5 clear, but now you go over there, there's like
6 clear cuts and everything, like -- it was
7 beautiful country over there. Now everything is
8 logged.
9 And now you guys want to do
10 this mine to where it's going to probably look
11 like a dessert over there, no trees, no shrubs, no
12 medicine plants, no berry plants. So -- and I do
13 feel for the Elders because they can't go over
14 there anymore to where they used to go to pick
15 their medicine plants and their berries where they
16 go fishing in the lakes, to where the lakes are
17 dying off and drying out, and that's due to the
18 logging and pollution.
19 And that's just from the
20 logging trucks, the erosion of the roads and --
21 because they say once the trees are knocked down
22 and you build roads it keeps moving. The soil or
23 the ground of the dirt it will keep moving towards
24 the lake where it starts killing off the lake to
25 where the weeds on the bottom of the lake won't 197
1 grow anymore, to where the fish won't go there
2 anymore to where they catch trout.
3 Just like the rivers, look at
4 Fraser River. We used to fish there when we were
5 little kids. Now we don't even want to fish there
6 anymore because of the pollution. And the warmth
7 of it and the colour. It was like a nice colour
8 like the Fair Well River. Now it's like a really
9 ugly colour compared to Fair Well.
10 And a lot of people from all
11 over, even down south they come all the way up
12 this way just to catch their fish, their feed for
13 the winter. And I would hate to see that go
14 because that's my favorite thing of the year is
15 doing fish. I've been doing did it everyday since
16 it started and I'm anxious to go down there but I
17 had to wait and do my speech.
18 Did you guys even check across
19 the river? The logged areas? Did you even see
20 pictures of the before it was logged? Wasn't it
21 just beautiful? Now you look at it, it's nothing.
22 It's nothing to look at anymore. It's like where
23 the wildlife is moving back or -- I don't know
24 where they are moving, because when we go hunting
25 we can't catch anything, we can't. Well, I'm not 198
1 a hunter but I go hunting, you know. We went over
2 there three years in a row, nothing. To where the
3 white man they get their permits and they get over
4 there and they are not supposed to have like quads
5 and motorbikes and whatever, they have that all
6 over there still, they get away with it.
7 And if that mine goes through
8 there's going to be nothing there. It's going to
9 be all gone to where this six Nations in this
10 area, this Chilcotin area, where are we going to
11 go then? Are you going to buy us beef? Are you
12 going to support our living? Are you going to buy
13 us fish, two stakes for $8? That's how they sell
14 it in the white man store.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Ms. Haller,
16 I think we've got the message. I don't want to
17 stop you if you have something additional to add,
18 but I also have some other speakers that would
19 like to speak, so...
20 MS. HALLER: Oh, was I speaking
21 that long already?
22 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Well, we've
23 listened to you, and I think your message has been
24 clear about archaeology, about some of the
25 traditional uses of the land and some concerns 199
1 about the mine and forestry.
2 MS. HALLER: But that's the
3 main issue, that's the main issue through all the
4 communities you go to, you are going to hear the
5 same thing over and over so get used to it.
6 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: I understand
7 that. Thank you.
8 Are there any questions for
9 Ms. Haller?
10 Taseko, would you like to
11 provide some comment or questions?
12 MS. HALLER: Could I just get
13 the name of the archeologist that did the mine
14 survey?
15 MS. GIZIKOFF: It's
16 Catherine Gizikoff here. Maybe I'll just respond
17 to that.
18 The archaeology work that was
19 done for the mine site in 2006 and 2007, was done
20 by Terra Archeology, T-E-R-R-A, they were a
21 consulting firm that was actually chosen in
22 consultation with the Tsilhqot'in National
23 Government. They were the company that was
24 recommended, and specifically the method that they
25 used was exactly what you described. They did not 200
1 want the high and low potential areas, the whole
2 site was done in a very intensive grid, exactly as
3 you described.
4 MS. HALLER: And, like, see I
5 had another question. (Inaudible) question? That
6 was one of them.
7 And, like, I've been think
8 being this for a long time and it shouldn't be
9 only one archaeology company, it should be like
10 two or three of them to get three different
11 reports or whatever. That might make a
12 difference, too.
13 So I'll mention -- like to
14 mention that to the Leaders, the Chiefs, the
15 Councils. Like to get more different archaeology
16 it's, like, certified and the ones that you trust,
17 and if there's no trust what is there? Thank you.
18 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
19 Thank you very much, Ms. Haller, we appreciate
20 your input.
21 MS. HALLER: Thank you.
22 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: At this
23 point, I have Natika Johnny, and then I will seek
24 some guidance from the Chief as to what we do
25 next. 201
1 PRESENTATION BY NATIKA JOHNNY:
2 MS. JOHNNY: My name is Natika
3 Johnny, and I'm 10 years old. My mom is Tanya
4 Johnny and my dad is James Stonechild, and I don't
5 want the mine to go through because it's going to
6 contaminate the water, and it's going to kill off
7 all our fish. And me and my family go fishing
8 every year and it's going to affect the wildlife
9 and when they make the mine, that's why don't the
10 mine to go through.
11 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
12 very much.
13 Do we have any questions for
14 this speaker here, this very elegant speaker?
15 Taseko?
16 MR. KUPFER: Thank you for
17 coming.
18 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
19 very much for stepping forward.
20 Next we have Isabelle Dodd.
21 No? Okay.
22 I have a few other names but
23 I'm not sure what -- what the priority is.
24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
25 (Inaudible) for Isabelle Dodd, and I guess she 202
1 forgot, so...
2 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Okay.
3 I have a likely speaker here,
4 Chief Francis will certainly be the speaker
5 sometime soon.
6 PRESENTATION BY STANLEY STUMP:
7 MR. STUMP: Thank you. My name
8 is Stan Stump, S-T-U-M-P. (Native word). We
9 thank you for coming, all of you.
10 I have been trying to keep up
11 with what has been going on with all the
12 statements that I've heard last week, this week.
13 I thought I had it all together but now I'm
14 totally confused.
15 Today I addressed the
16 Environmental Assessment Committee from my
17 (inaudible) acting president of Chilcotin National
18 Congress. That's the official office of the
19 Chilcotin leaders, their family and extended
20 families. It was our ancestors who were hanged in
21 Quesnel in 1864. I, too, carry a Grand Chief
22 title, given to me by Union of B.C., and Chiefs on
23 the 25th Annual General Assembly held in Penticton
24 (ph) held in 1993.
25 Chilcotin National Congress 203
1 does not believe in artificial caretaker areas in
2 the Chilcotin country as up by the Federal and
3 Provincial governments. I've heard that comment
4 so many times over the past two weeks. Nor do we
5 believe the Supreme Court of Canada can decide if
6 the Chilcotins have title and rights to this land.
7 We do. Later on in my other
8 presentation you will hear it all. I am
9 Tsilhqot'in. I was born here.
10 The Tsilhqot'ins, we own the
11 last west of the Fraser River lock, stock and
12 barrel.
13 Originally, I wanted to orate
14 my presentation entirely in the language of my
15 great, great, great, great grandparents, great,
16 great, great ancestors but we do not have time for
17 that today. We all would have to go to the
18 mountains to do that because my words are tied in
19 with one with the mountains, the rocks, the trees,
20 and with my body and heart. All of you see me
21 today as with one with the Tsilhqot'in world.
22 The things I wish to talk about
23 are many. But listening to the presentation last
24 week, this week, I support each one of those
25 presentations that were made. I have never heard 204
1 so much concern about one project expressed by so
2 many. But today we are forced to talk about an
3 issue that will effect our lives more than we
4 know, in most cases, maybe beyond our control to
5 what we don't know.
6 In 1860s the Tsilhqot'in
7 survived smallpox, which was brought in to
8 exterminate us. The possibility of a new disease
9 looms on Tsilhqot'in horizon. Back then, genocide
10 did not work. Today ethnocide begins.
11 How then do we protect our
12 future generation? How do we protect the
13 grizzlies, the black bears, the beavers that
14 controls the water system so the fish at Tezton
15 Biny can live, as they have done so until now?
16 I speak for them and all the
17 four legged, the trees, the ponds, where the
18 amphibians live, the birds, it is more their home
19 than it is mine. Words do not pay for our dead
20 people, words do not pay for unseated Tsilhqot'in
21 territory. Words do not protect our ancestors'
22 graves.
23 All those who knew how to make
24 bow and arrows are long time ago gone. Those we
25 sent to the university to learn the ways of the 205
1 white man, to learn to fight Taseko Mines,
2 Gibraltar Mines, and all of the other adversaries,
3 have become too complacent and pacified in the
4 lifestyles in the cities and never return.
5 They are probably reading about
6 us wondering what the hell are the Indians up to
7 now? I suppose as Tsilhqot'ins we have to fight
8 our own way with what we have. Pass the ammo.
9 Canada preaches human rights,
10 why not endorse a right of nature and have a
11 consult constitutional protection for the
12 environment in Canada? It is from the environment
13 that comes all of life, Tezton Biny needs a
14 protection. But is Taseko Mines builds a gold and
15 copper mine on Scout Island in Williams Lake, this
16 -- that would be disastrous. Why, then, does it
17 not hurt Tezton Biny?
18 I'll read you a 1983
19 Declaration of Tsilhqot'in Sovereignty, which I
20 assisted in putting together and had the
21 opportunity to present it to different countries
22 at the United Nations in New York.
23 First, I will talk about the
24 territory. From the Fraser River to the coastal
25 mountains and from the territory of (Native word) 206
1 to the territory of the Carrier Nation is
2 Tsilhqot'in country. The heart of our country is
3 the Chilcotin River and it's tributaries, lakes
4 and streams.
5 This has been the territory of
6 Chilcotin Nation for longer than any man can say,
7 and it will always, always be our country.
8 The outlying parts we have
9 always shared with our neighbors, the Mohawk, the
10 (Native word ), the Little Ones, the Carriers, the
11 Shushwaps, but the heartland belongs to none but
12 the Chilcotins.
13 Our mountains and valleys,
14 lakes, rivers and creeks, all carry names given to
15 them by Chilcotin people: Anaham, (Native word),
16 the (Native word), the (Native word), (Native
17 word), (Native word), the Xeni, (Native word).
18 Our territory is -- which is
19 named in our language. All living things in our
20 country, animals, birds, insects, amphibians,
21 reptiles, worms, flies, trees, fish, shrubs,
22 flowers and other plants, also bear the names
23 given to them in the language of the Chilcotin. I
24 talk about affinity.
25 The Chilcotin are part of a 207
1 greater Nation of the Dene whose language is
2 spoken in the territories that extend around the
3 Hudson Bay to Alaska and Asia, and from the
4 northern most forest to the equator, the Apache
5 and the Navahos are Dene. The (Native word), the
6 Talhtan, the Puchin, (Native word), (Native word),
7 the Chippewa are also Dene.
8 So are the Carrier, the hare,
9 the dog, the (Native word), the Beaver People.
10 The Dene Nation is vast and we are a proud part of
11 it. We are the Chilcotin.
12 The first white man to enter
13 our country did so only with our permission and
14 when we told them to leave, they left. When men
15 settle in our country without permission, we drove
16 them out.
17 When the Queen of England
18 extended to our Nation the protection of her law
19 by including our territory into the Colony of
20 British Columbia in 1958, she did so without our
21 knowledge or consent. Since this time, while our
22 people are suffering from the effects of European
23 disease our country has been invaded and is
24 spoiled. Our people have been deceived,
25 impoverished, oppressed, exploited, imprisoned and 208
1 maligned.
2 Our sovereignty has been
3 encroached upon and our jurisdiction ignored. Yet
4 we have survived and once again we thrive.
5 We are the Chilcotin and we
6 declare to all men and women that we are an
7 independent Nation proud and free. We accuse the
8 Government of the United Kingdom of breach of
9 trust.
10 We accuse the Government of
11 Canada of invading the territories and
12 jurisdiction of a neutral state whose sovereignty
13 is bound by its own laws to defend and protect.
14 We accuse the Government of the
15 Province of British Columbia of invading our
16 territories and plundering our resources in clear
17 violations off its own laws and ours.
18 We accuse all three governments
19 of conspiring to invade our Nation; of conspiring
20 to destroy the foundation of our ancient way of
21 life and to oppress our people; of crimes against
22 land, air, water, over which they have no
23 jurisdiction; of permitting the slaughter of
24 Native wildlife; of encouraging or ignoring the
25 overharvesting of our forests, lakes, rivers and 209
1 mountains, and the destruction of our natural
2 gardens and orchards. We accuse these governments
3 of the repeated and shameless violation of their
4 laws and of international agreements and
5 covenants.
6 I speak of the jurisdiction,
7 the Chilcotin Nation affirms, asserts and strives
8 to exercise full control over our traditional
9 territories and over the government within our
10 lands.
11 Our jurisdiction to govern or
12 territory and people is conferred upon us by the
13 Creator to govern and maintain and protect the
14 traditional territory in accordance with natural
15 law for the benefit of all the living existing on
16 our land, for this generation and for those yet
17 unborn.
18 We have been victims of the
19 colonizations of Britain and Canada and the
20 Province of British Columbia. We insist upon our
21 right to decolonize and drive those government
22 from our land.
23 In reference to a
24 constitutional conference, we have often declared
25 our willingness to negotiate the terms of a union 210
1 with Canada. We repeat that offer now. We only
2 make one condition, the process for our
3 negotiation and the final settlement must carry
4 the consent of the Chilcotin Nation.
5 We've asked the United Nations
6 to supervise the discussions between Indian
7 Nations and Canada to assist us in our
8 decolonization. We feel international assistance
9 is necessary because Canada has stolen our lands
10 and continues to have an interest in maintaining
11 control over them.
12 It is difficult to ask a thief
13 to sit in judgment of its theft.
14 Should the negotiations prove
15 fruitful they will define the terms and conditions
16 of the union of the Chilcotin Nation with Canada.
17 However, if Canada refuses to
18 negotiate or choose to bring unacceptable
19 conditions to the negotiations, the Chilcotin
20 Nation will consider itself free to pursue
21 whatever course of action it may decide upon.
22 That will no doubt include the assumption of our
23 rightful place in the United Nations'
24 organizations and other international groups, such
25 as the Individual Nation (inaudible) or as a 211
1 constituent and member of federation or alliance
2 of Nation states.
3 Non-status Chilcotins. To all
4 those people who know themselves to be Chilcotins
5 but who have been denied recognition by Canada,
6 the Chilcotin Nation declares that they will be
7 granted Chilcotin citizenship.
8 Indian reserves. The Chilcotin
9 Nation declares that the reserves established by
10 Canada and British Columbia for the use and
11 benefit of Indian Nations in the Chilcotin are
12 inadequate and illegal, having never been approved
13 nor consented to by the Chilcotin people. The
14 Chilcotin Nation declares that all so-called Crown
15 land within Chilcotin territory is forthwith
16 reserved for and owned by the Chilcotin Nation.
17 Declaration. To the government
18 of the Crown the Chilcotin Nation declares that
19 they should henceforth honour their trust and obey
20 the Royal proclamation of 1763 as the Supreme
21 Court of Canada law in their relation to us. This
22 is very important. This is your law. This is
23 your Supreme Court of Canada law. I talk to you
24 about.
25 Especially to the government of 212
1 the Province of British Columbia. The Chilcotin
2 Nation declares that it should henceforth cease
3 and desist it's lawless plunder of the resources
4 of our country. The Chilcotin Nation declares
5 that laws enacted by Canada and British Columbia
6 will have no force or affect on Chilcotin country
7 and that the laws of the Chilcotin Nation will
8 prevail.
9 Before that date, all holders
10 of licences, permits, deeds and other documents
11 issued by those governments must seek the
12 permission of the Chilcotin Nation to continue the
13 operation of the interests following a certain
14 date. They can do so at appropriate stations.
15 Recognition. The Chilcotin
16 Nation requests the recognition of all Nations of
17 the earth, the understanding of the people of
18 Canada, the trust and goodwill of the people of
19 British Columbia and the active cooperation of all
20 indigenous people.
21 Respect. To those people who
22 have settled among us in our country, the
23 Chilcotin Nation declares that we bear no enmity
24 towards you as long as you respect us. It is the
25 policies and practice of the government, the 213
1 courts and the churches of Canada that have done
2 us so much harm and that must now change. We do
3 not blame you, we ask you to understand that
4 change must now take place and we invite you to
5 assist us to the best of your ability.
6 We invite you to work with us
7 to make the Chilcotin a better place for all of
8 our children. We govern according to principals
9 of consent. We ask you to understand that what we
10 are saying is not unique or peculiar to the
11 Chilcotins. It is happening throughout the
12 Americas. The period or era of colonization or
13 New Colonialism is passing.
14 I have handed you yesterday a
15 copy of this, also a copy of the same one that was
16 signed by the elected Chiefs of the Chilcotin in
17 1998, I believe it was. You can share that copy
18 with those guys over there, the Taseko Mines.
19 I also have in my presentation
20 to you, I will just leave them in the folder, I
21 will give them to you to share with whoever you
22 have to change. And that's Canada's statement of
23 support on the United Nations Declaration on the
24 Rights of Indigenous Peoples and also how that
25 United Nations Declarations on the Rights of 214
1 Indigenous Peoples effects the Chilcotin people.
2 And the last and final piece of
3 document that I will be giving you is the Royal
4 Proclamation of 1763, which is the ultimate law in
5 North America when it considers Native people.
6 When we talk about Taseko
7 Mines, none of these has ever been discussed by
8 Taseko Mines, by the Province, they have never,
9 never ever come to our front door and asked us
10 what would we like. Instead they carry on their
11 horse and pony show like nobody gives a damn.
12 You've heard testimony from
13 people from Stoney say it, the Nemiah Valley,
14 Alexandria, all indicated that this has to stop.
15 So with my last question to
16 you, maybe to the Chair or to Taseko: In your
17 definition, how do you view unseated lands? How
18 do you view that?
19 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: We've a
20 mandate that I described partly this morning, and
21 pretty much every morning since we started the
22 hearing, and that's what we are obliged to follow.
23 MR. STUMP: I'm talking about
24 the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and unseated Indian
25 territories. 215
1 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: The Panel
2 will make it's determination after the hearing is
3 finished and we will put our conclusions in our
4 report to the Minister.
5 MR. STUMP: That's fine with
6 me.
7 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you.
8 We'll make these available on the registry.
9 Any questions for Mr. Stump?
10 Taseko?
11 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
12 very much for your input Mr. Stump, we will
13 consider it.
14 MR. STUMP: Thank you.
15 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Chief
16 Francis, are you next or should we have someone
17 else?
18 MS. NARCISSE: I'm Stormy
19 Williams or Stormy Narcisse.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Williams?
21 PRESENTATION BY STORMY NARCISSE:
22 MS. NARCISSE: Narcisse. Hi,
23 my name is Stormy Narcisse and I'm a youth worker.
24 My last name is spelled N-A-R-C-I-S-S-E.
25 I'm a Toosey youth worker. I 216
1 work with children. I have three children of my
2 own, two adopted and a lot of other kids that call
3 me mom. I've been raised by my grandmother, and
4 she's raised me traditionally where we do a lot
5 fishing, hunting. I've learned how to prepare all
6 the food on my own, and I'm passing that down onto
7 my children and all the other kids in my life.
8 I don't think this mine is a
9 good idea. I would like to see the future
10 children, my kids' kids be able to live off the
11 land, and that's all I wanted to say.
12 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
13 very much for your words of wisdom. Because I
14 want to invite anyone who may have questions for
15 Ms. Narcisse.
16 Taseko? Anything?
17 Thank you very much. We
18 appreciate hearing from the community and from you
19 in particular.
20 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Chief
21 Francis?
22 Just for the benefit of others,
23 the scheme from now on will be yourself, with
24 questions, and then I will afford an opportunity
25 for Taseko to respond to what it has heard today. 217
1 I will have a few short closing comments, and we
2 will have a closing ceremony.
3 Go ahead, Chief Francis.
4 PRESENTATION BY CHIEF FRANCIS:
5 CHIEF FRANCIS: I'm not a --
6 the previous speaker took a lot of -- just to let
7 you know a little bit. I've been Chief here for
8 probably 13, 14 years for the Toosey.
9 I've been on council and other
10 jobs also, so I'm probably going on 20 some odd
11 years and during that time I'm also an executive
12 member of the Chilcotin National Congress, so I'm
13 also been Chief for quite a few years. So I know
14 what Stanley is talking about.
15 Anyways, I just would like to
16 acknowledge the Panel and I don't really want to
17 call you Taseko but I'll call you Hunter
18 Dickinson. Taseko is -- that's our Chilcotin name
19 so I don't feel comfortable. Hunter Dickinson is
20 more -- and everything else that is here, fellow
21 Chiefs, Counsel, Councillors, Elders, youth,
22 Chilcotins and other people that are here, I just
23 like to acknowledge we're in Chilcotin territory
24 and this is area that's the most eastern part of
25 our Nations' territory. We have vast, vast 218
1 territory, a big area.
2 And, yes, as earlier I had a
3 jar of fish there and, you know, that's one of our
4 -- as I said earlier, that's one of our main
5 sources of food as Chilcotin peoples. Amongst
6 other fish, you know, we eat a lot of fish. As
7 you probably heard during the last little while of
8 all of our people have probably stated that and
9 the clean water is the most important, you know,
10 for that species of salmon and any other species
11 of fish, and that's trout, and they need a clean
12 source water to survive.
13 I know in other areas of this
14 country where that might have been so at one time
15 but, you know, now because of industrial
16 activities, the water has gotten to the point
17 where there's no more fish in them. All the other
18 animals that we depend on for our livelihood and
19 they need also need clean water and an area for
20 them to exist and as you've heard our areas are
21 getting less and less and just a lot of different
22 activities. We have been fortunate in a way as
23 Chilcotin, you know, regarding this mining that
24 we've been able to hold off a lot of mining
25 initiatives in our territory, and a lot of it was 219
1 due to our forefathers that were so protective of
2 this whole area.
3 You know, you've heard stories
4 of our -- the wars that our Nations have I had.
5 You know, they -- that's just our lifestyle is so
6 important, you know, that just who we are. We're
7 so close to that, to the lands and, you know, to
8 the animals that -- and, you know, everything is
9 tied together as you've probably heard. And we're
10 fortunate that, you know, our people fought for
11 this land so that we could be here to enjoy what
12 is there today.
13 Our area here as you can see on
14 all of these maps and just from the testimony of a
15 lot of our members, you know, we are impacted by a
16 lot. One is the logging as you probably heard,
17 that's one that really hit us hard, but another
18 one is the department of national defence.
19 We have -- they have a training
20 area just north of us hear. We have an IR No. 2,
21 which is north us also so on all four -- three
22 sides of IR No. 2 it's about 10 square miles that
23 the Department of National Defence uses for their
24 training, for their training purposes and that's
25 been like that for maybe -- since the early '60s. 220
1 And just Calot of that is going
2 back 10, 15 years ago there was a lot of heavy use
3 of that area by them to go in as far as low-level
4 jet flights, you know, and some of the problems
5 you heard like the (Native word) were having back
6 east and so forth and explosions that would go off
7 up there that would shake our windows down here
8 and just really bad for the environment, you know,
9 and we had a lot of concern.
10 So we took action, we blocked
11 the roads, we got arrested a few times and some of
12 us were charged and some of us are still charged
13 criminally for that. So some of us are still
14 criminals for doing that, but that is something
15 that we have to do sometimes to protect our areas.
16 So we also shut down some roads
17 with logging activity right around that same time.
18 We shut down roads that took out that way too Big
19 Creek. We shut down the main highway, Highway 20,
20 with other Chilcotin Nations, some of it the --
21 the Nation that helped to do all that.
22 But that's -- due to a lot of
23 the impacts that we're having in our areas around
24 here, we're very protective of other areas, of the
25 Fish Lake area, the Nabas area, that whole area, 221
1 you know, that one of the most important for me is
2 the -- like I said, the clean waters, we want that
3 water to stay that so you can just drink that
4 anytime you want from the rivers, from any rivers
5 up that way, any lakes up there. There is vast
6 areas of big lakes, the whole headwaters.
7 That's where some of our people
8 who would use and still utilize that area. I
9 still do, you know, if I want to hunt I hunt
10 pretty well anywhere. I don't just -- not just in
11 this area. There's certain species that you would
12 hunt in different areas and different types of
13 fish that you would fish in different times of the
14 year and so forth.
15 So I'm also opposed to the mine
16 plans out in Fish Lake. I don't agree with any
17 type of plans that are proposed by the Hunter
18 Dickinson to wanting to mine in that area. You
19 know, they had a plan a couple years back and I
20 didn't agree with that then, and I don't know if
21 these plans are any different, but I don't agree
22 with them today.
23 I think it will be just too
24 much -- there's just too much. I don't know, it's
25 just -- it doesn't seem right. To me that type of 222
1 -- that big of a, you know, that's to be one of
2 the biggest open-pit mines in Canada. Maybe it --
3 it's just too scary for our people to -- you know,
4 I think Gibraltar Mine is bad enough. That's in
5 Chilcotin territory and that's been there for 40
6 years and just we were there yesterday and I've
7 been there before also and it's just, you know,
8 you hear all those stories. It's not good, it's
9 -- any kind of mine I don't think it's -- it's
10 just too much poison.
11 Like Tommy was saying,
12 Billyboy, when that wind blows, you know, 50
13 miles, a hundred miles, you know, you can't -- and
14 that Fish Lake is not that far from here, it will
15 probably -- that wind is blowing the right way it
16 will wipe out that whole area for anything.
17 So even the transmission line,
18 I'm really having a problem with that. That would
19 also open up too much area for other projects that
20 won't be just for the proposed mine out that way.
21 I think that would just bring in more industry,
22 maybe more people would want to move into the area
23 and so forth. It would just open up more roads
24 and I think it's bad enough just the way it is
25 right now. So I'm against the proposed 223
1 transmission line, also.
2 I just wanted to say that we --
3 as individual communities and as a Nation we're a
4 very strong, strong Nation in all the -- the way
5 that we are. You know, we -- most of all of our
6 peoples would live off the land, the waters, and
7 pretty well since time immemorial, you know,
8 that's just the way it has always has been. So
9 that's what our people are scared of, they don't
10 want to change that in any way.
11 And as you've heard I was going
12 to say that our Aboriginal rights and title,
13 that's who we are. We are title, if you want to
14 call it, we are title because that's who we are.
15 We -- our rights, we live that
16 so that's -- you know, you can say the Nation is
17 because we're so strong in that, and so protective
18 of our land that we've always had it. We know
19 that, we know that all that land that the Nation
20 says belongs to them, that's the way it is. You
21 know, we've always exercised that.
22 But I think our people are
23 starting to feel the effects of too much industry
24 in our area, so I think we're going to have to
25 regroup and pretty sure the people are going to be 224
1 wanting to do something to stop in some certain
2 areas, whether it's logging or -- if for whatever
3 reason this mining at Fish Lake goes ahead, we
4 have to, we will stand together to stop that.
5 And I think logging-wise we're
6 going to have to do the same thing, because a
7 little effecting our food. If we don't have our
8 food to survive that's hardship for our people and
9 as a result we -- our people will get -- will
10 start getting sick from, you know, if they can't
11 access the traditional food, you end up with other
12 food that we're not used to, so they end up, you
13 know, with high diabetes and those type of -- you
14 know, that is what happens.
15 As for the -- as I was saying
16 for the rights and title, all that, I'm going to
17 say that the Supreme Court of Canada on November
18 7th over around that area, in 2013, that they are
19 going to declare we do have title because it's
20 time for the governments to finally admit that we
21 do exist and that we do have Aboriginal rights and
22 title once and for all, for the record, in their
23 records. It's just been too long for them to keep
24 being in denial that they -- there's a reason why
25 they are delaying that so that they can continue 225
1 to -- like you heard earlier, to keep taking our
2 resources and, you know, that's what it's all
3 about.
4 If they declared that we --
5 that we're the owners of everything out here, that
6 that has to change. Right now the governments are
7 comfortable with taking all our -- what's out
8 there, all our trees, minerals, next thing they
9 are to go after our water because our water is
10 pure water, you know, and those are the types of
11 things we're scared of.
12 That's why they haven't said we
13 have title, which would say that we are the
14 original owners of this, of all probably all of
15 B.C., all of Canada, so that's an Avenue for them
16 to keep taking our resources illegally.
17 Also, for the Chilcotin court
18 what Vickers have to say, I believe that in one of
19 his statements he said that the province had no
20 jurisdiction to be giving out forestry permits.
21 To my (inaudible) -- I'll even go a little further
22 today, that they didn't have no jurisdiction to
23 even be giving out any mining permits. Forestry
24 is one area, mining is another one. They don't
25 have jurisdiction to be giving out any permits in 226
1 our territory as far as I'm concerned.
2 And when the Supreme Court of
3 Canada went to the B.C. Supreme Court, nobody
4 there was from -- from the government was there to
5 challenge that, and from there it went to the
6 Supreme Court of Canada.
7 So I believe it's getting close
8 to where, you know, nobody can just come into our
9 territories anymore to do what they are doing or
10 what they are proposing to do.
11 Another big concern of mine is
12 the discharge from the Gibraltar. They are
13 putting their garbage water into the Fraser River
14 and that's the B.C. Government again giving them a
15 permit to be able to do that.
16 If that expansion goes through,
17 that's going to be 10 times more than what they
18 are pumping into the river right now. And that's
19 not monitored very good, as you've heard.
20 I would like that -- for that
21 to stop and you can do it a lot of other ways, but
22 that's the cheapest way for Hunter Dickinson to
23 get away with putting their garbage somewhere and
24 that's going to affect our food. Even though
25 Taseko Mine -- sorry, the Fish Lake Mine doesn't 227
1 go, they are still going to try and wipe out our
2 wild salmon and all the other species that are in
3 that river.
4 Once again, it's going to be
5 poison, you know, that's -- as you keep hearing
6 about what our people have been up against, it's
7 pretty well genocide what we're dealing with here.
8 I think we're going to have to call somebody on
9 all this very, very soon.
10 Just with the trees all dying,
11 with the bug kill situation, that was also
12 planned. I know, because 20 years ago I was still
13 around here when it was just starting to happen.
14 They said, oh, there is bug killing trees over
15 here, we have to get in here and log it out. And
16 now today it's at such an accelerated pace of the
17 way they are logging there's -- the trees are
18 dying so we got to log them before they all die
19 out. So it was a planned environmental disaster
20 that the governments, they did that, and I know.
21 You know, it just goes from one
22 kind of bad environmental disaster to another.
23 Now you want to bring in this mine to say, well,
24 we told you so and you're going to poison
25 everything again? 228
1 And if it's not the
2 overharvesting by the loggers, it's the big fires
3 that are coming in to burn up all our trees and
4 that has a big impact on our wildlife and the
5 waters.
6 But I think it's really
7 important that, you know, I'm really happy that
8 lot of our people came forward to really speak
9 with their heart and if somebody is implying that
10 a lot of times at the end of the day I hear Hunter
11 Dickinson they will get up and they will say,
12 well, there is some misinformation or even
13 implying that maybe the Chiefs are going around
14 telling the people, you know, what to say. I --
15 that's really -- our people -- you know, they
16 speak the truth. You know, I speak the truth. I
17 have no reason to say otherwise. That's just the
18 way our people are.
19 And, you know, when we're
20 dealing with our very existence here today, you
21 have to speak the truth no matter what.
22 With that, I would just like
23 to, you know, for the record just want to thank
24 everybody that spoke on this issue. I would like
25 to thank all the communities, all the leaders, 229
1 Elders, youth, and everyone else that's supported
2 us in any way, other Nations, just other groups.
3 I think it's -- we're not alone with this issue,
4 you know, because of the court case.
5 There's a lot of Nations right
6 across Canada and like I said before it's
7 international -- turning into an international
8 issue, and we will make sure that it stays at that
9 level, you know, we have no choice as the previous
10 speaker said, we have to get the truth from
11 somewhere and if it's not going to be from B.C. or
12 Canada, we have to look elsewhere to more or less
13 find a referee to help us get back to where we
14 should be. You know, to get on with our lives and
15 to live the way we want.
16 I think we're moving in that
17 direction, going to be wanting to but, you know,
18 we keep getting held up. You know, this is the
19 second go around that we're dealing with this here
20 now, and I don't want to be dealing with this a
21 third time. I think the first time should have
22 been enough.
23 You know, that decision was
24 made, and there has to be some honour and some
25 truth somewhere, so I ask for respectful and 230
1 honourable way for Hunter Dickinson, the Province,
2 the Federal governments to not proceed with this
3 so-called plan to put a mine at Fish Lake and I
4 also ask that this Panel make the right and
5 honourable decision as the last Panel did to
6 recommend that -- to reject the so-called New
7 Prosperity proposal.
8 That's something that for once
9 and for all that this gets rejected, you know,
10 that nobody else will be able to come and put us
11 -- our people through all this again, you know,
12 because I don't think we should be made to do
13 this, you know, even though it's our people are
14 more or less, you know, telling their story and,
15 you know, that's good.
16 But I think it's taken out --
17 it's hard on all our people and, you know, I think
18 that's about all I had and I just want to thank
19 everybody for being here and listening to us once
20 again, and thank you very much.
21 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you,
22 Chief Francis.
23 Any questions for Chief
24 Francis?
25 Taseko? 231
1 MR. JONES: No questions.
2 MR. SMYTH: I just want to
3 thank you for your hospitality and allowing us to
4 be here today.
5 MR. KUPFER: I want to thank
6 you also, and your message is clear. Thank you.
7 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: My two
8 colleagues always preempt me and say the things I
9 had in mind. That was a clear message and we
10 heard it very carefully and thank very much for
11 that.
12 CHIEF FRANCIS: Okay. Thank
13 you.
14 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: At this
15 point Taseko, any response to what you've heard
16 today?
17 CLOSING REMARKS BY TASEKO:
18 MR. JONES: Thank you,
19 Mr. Chairman.
20 I just have a few general
21 comments and then I think Catherine has a couple
22 of more specific comments, so we'll be pretty
23 short today.
24 I would like to start by just
25 thanking Chief Francis and his community for 232
1 making us feel welcome here today.
2 And I would really like to
3 thank the members of the community and the Elders
4 who came and shared stories, shared presentations.
5 I know that's hard to do, you have prepare for it,
6 you have to get up in front of people, and it's
7 not a comfortable thing for some people and I
8 appreciate that. We appreciate that. And I want
9 to come back to that in a second.
10 Certainly, the stories and the
11 presentations that we heard today, every one of
12 them is unique, just as they have been unique in
13 every other community we've been in this week.
14 They have a common theme, guaranteed, and they
15 demonstrate that attachment to the land, that
16 dependence on the land, and I can't question that.
17 That's just -- it is the truth for those people
18 and we feel it.
19 And the other thing that comes
20 through, and Chief Francis said it, it's the fear
21 of this project, fear of how this project could
22 affect people in these communities.
23 And I just have to acknowledge
24 some disappointment not in the communities at all,
25 disappointments -- I think more for myself and I 233
1 think I speak for all of us because we've been
2 trying to engage in communities for the last five
3 or six years on this project and we come to the
4 project with having worked our careers in an
5 industry that is modern, it's new, we're
6 comfortable in it, we know what we can achieve, we
7 know the technology, we have faith in that because
8 it's something we know.
9 And my disappointment is in not
10 being able to feel any progress in addressing some
11 of the fears that certainly community members that
12 we heard today and in the last couple of days and
13 maybe it's frustration but it's disappointment.
14 I guess to use a common phrase
15 that we've heard a bit is we've been unable to
16 paint the picture of what a modern mine looks like
17 and what the effects can be.
18 And I wanted to come back to
19 what I said earlier about thanking people for
20 sharing their experiences. And the reason I say
21 that is because we talk about relationships,
22 Taseko talks about relationships. And whether we
23 have relationships going forward that are good or
24 not a relationship, I think it's important that we
25 all recognize that you can't have a relationship 234
1 unless you understand the person that you are
2 having a relationship with. There's a need to
3 understand the fears and the desires and the
4 things of importance to those people.
5 And just by communities sharing
6 those stories that gives us a greater sense of
7 what those things are. So my hope is that that's
8 -- my hope is that that will aid us in
9 relationships going forward. This isn't the forum
10 that we necessarily want to be doing it in, but
11 nevertheless, in my mind, it's a bit of a step
12 from our side, so thank for that.
13 And Catherine has a few other
14 specific comments I believe.
15 MS. GIZIKOFF: Thank you.
16 I don't know how more specific
17 they are, some of them are a reiteration of what
18 Mr. Jones said.
19 But I also want to thank the
20 community. I do know it's very hard to speak in
21 this format, especially for a second time. And we
22 heard from the community about changes on the land
23 and changes in the community and the community
24 trying to promote and return to a more traditional
25 practice. And it's important for us to hear these 235
1 things.
2 With regards to preservation
3 and we heard concerns about the resources on the
4 land, both gathering areas and we heard about
5 moose, concerns about water and salmon, and
6 concerns about cultural heritage, archaeology and
7 grave sites. We were grateful for you sharing
8 those concerns about us.
9 With regards to archeology, we
10 are confident in our methodologies and that is a
11 project that we worked very closely with the
12 Chilcotin on and that is one of the key drivers
13 for the change in this project design, is to save
14 the archaeology sites very common around or
15 abundant around Fish Lake and on the island, and
16 we made commitments to our -- developing a
17 cultural heritage protection plan and working with
18 First Nations to look at further agreements if
19 they are interested on artifacts as recommended by
20 the previous Panel, and that's relative to things
21 like the pipe that was illustrated earlier.
22 With regards to the moose, that
23 was a very interesting dialogue. I'm sorry that
24 part of that wasn't at our technical session or
25 probably at both when we had our wildlife experts 236
1 as well, and I thank Mary for the GIS work she did
2 to capture that information that is available, but
3 she captured it very visually, and I appreciate
4 that.
5 I was glad to hear from Luke
6 about the South Chilcotin Stewardship Planning
7 Committee that is difficult for us to been able to
8 break into it, but I think that they are working
9 very well together and that's an example of a
10 good forum for collaborative action.
11 I will not spend any time
12 disputing JP's statements about the new roads
13 associated with the mine and the transmission
14 lines as I'm very confident of our proposal, and
15 the transmission roads.
16 But we do see changes on the
17 landscape. That 51 percent decline in moose
18 population is over a very large area and it
19 includes the rights and title area, where there
20 hasn't been logging. And some of this, and it
21 could be from a variety of factors and it may take
22 years to figure out or we may not figure it out
23 but all the causes are likely a combination of
24 causes, some of which are human caused, which may
25 be able to be addressed through regulations and 237
1 education and awareness, and some may be natural,
2 some by the pine beetle, wolves, maybe even we've
3 also heard about elk coming in and we do know
4 moose can be cyclic.
5 And at times in our history
6 here, in the past, not present, but I think what
7 this project can do is minimize the effects in the
8 mine site area on the moose through its design,
9 through the habitat compensation, offsetting some
10 losses and through working with other groups on
11 access to even offset on a broader scale some of
12 the contributing factors to this issue.
13 I think overall over everything
14 today I've heard the sharing information and
15 variety of forums are available should the project
16 be approved both on transmission alignment,
17 working with people like Roseanna on determining
18 the final alignment, considering a variety of
19 things but also traditional gathering areas. I
20 found that very interesting and Quinton's
21 statements about gangs and some youth issues, and
22 drugs and alcohol problems, how would a proponent
23 like ourselves work with the communities to assist
24 rather than aggravate those problems, and Douglas
25 Johnny spoke to that as well. 238
1 So overall, I think although
2 the forum is challenging for people, I do
3 appreciate the information that they shared.
4 Thank you.
5 CHAIRPERSON ROSS: Thank you
6 very much.
7 For my closing remarks, I have
8 my usual requests to leave the headsets here so
9 that our audio people can pick them up.
10 The second thing is also usual.
11 We were on afforded an excellent lunch and I
12 certainly thank those who worked so hard to get us
13 that wonderful lunch and not only lunch but
14 drumming entertainment at lunch, as well. But
15 most importantly I think the community of (Native
16 word) for the good ideas. The presentations we've
17 heard, that afforded an opportunity for discussion
18 and questioning and response from Taseko, and all
19 of that has helped the Panel to better understand
20 the community and the project, and that's most
21 important.
22 Next, I remind you that -- let
23 me get it right here -- that tomorrow and
24 Saturday, the two days we will be in Anaham, with
25 the Anaham band in the school gymnasium on the 239
1 Anaham Reserve. It will be from 10:00 to 6:00 as
2 have the last many days, and so some of you will
3 be joining us there and you're all welcome.
4 Lastly, I think at this time if
5 I could invite Chief Francis and his drumming
6 colleagues for our closing ceremony, that would be
7 very much appreciate.
8 --- Closing ceremonies.
9 --- All the foregoing non-English words, when
10 spellings not provided, are represented
11 phonetically.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing was adjourned at 5:40
13 p.m., to resume at 10:00 a.m. on Friday,
14 August 16th, 2013
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3 I, COURTNEY MIDDLETON, a certified Court Reporter
4 in the Province of Ontario, hereby certify the
5 foregoing pages to be an accurate transcription of
6 my notes to the best of my skill and ability.
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8 Je, Courtney Middleton, un sténographe officiel
9 dans la province de l'Ontario, certifie que les
10 pages ci-hautes sont une transcription conforme de
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15 Courtney Middleton ,
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3 I, SANDRA BRERETON, a certified Court Reporter in
4 the Province of Ontario, hereby certify the
5 foregoing pages to be an accurate transcription of
6 my notes to the best of my skill and ability.
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8 Je, Sandra Brereton, un sténographe officiel dans
9 la province de l'Ontario, certifie que les pages
10 ci-hautes sont une transcription conforme de mes
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14 Sandra Brereton ,
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16 Sandra Brereton, CSR, RPR
17 Certified Court Reporter.
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