Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Relations Committee

Thursday 24 May 2018

Session 5

© Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body

Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000

Thursday 24 May 2018

CONTENTS Col. INTERESTS...... 1 SCREEN SECTOR ...... 2 ANNUAL REPORT ...... 20

CULTURE, TOURISM, EUROPE AND EXTERNAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE 15th Meeting 2018, Session 5

CONVENER *Joan McAlpine (South Scotland) (SNP)

DEPUTY CONVENER *Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)

COMMITTEE MEMBERS *Mairi Gougeon (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP) *Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con) *Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green) *Richard Lochhead (Moray) (SNP) *Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP) *Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands) (LD) *Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

*attended

THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Andrew Barnes (Olsberg SPI) Dr Michael Franklin (University of London) Dr Inge Sorensen (University of Glasgow) Alex Tosta (British Film Institute)

CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Peter McGrath

LOCATION The Robert Burns Room (CR1)

1 24 MAY 2018 2

Scottish Parliament Screen Sector

Culture, Tourism, Europe and 09:05 External Relations Committee The Convener: Item 2 is an evidence session on the committee’s inquiry into Scotland’s screen Thursday 24 May 2018 sector, focusing on research, statistics and value. This will be our final evidence session with [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:04] stakeholders before we hear from Creative Scotland and the Cabinet Secretary for Culture, Interests Tourism and External Affairs next Thursday. The committee then intends to publish its report before The Convener (Joan McAlpine): Good the summer recess. morning and welcome to the 15th meeting in 2018 I welcome our witnesses. We have Dr Michael of the Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Franklin of the Institute for Creative and Cultural Relations Committee. I remind members and the Entrepreneurship at Goldsmiths college, the public to turn off their mobile phones. Any University of London; Andrew Barnes, associate members who are using electronic devices to director of Olsberg SPI; Alex Tosta, research access committee papers should please ensure manager in the research and statistics unit at the that they are switched to silent mode. British Film Institute; and Inge Sorensen, lecturer Agenda item 1 is a declaration of interests. in digital economy and culture at the University of Alexander Stewart and Jamie Greene have been Glasgow. appointed to replace Jackson Carlaw and Rachael I will begin by asking Mr Barnes some specific Hamilton respectively as members of the questions, because I know that his consultancy, committee. I warmly welcome Alexander and Olsberg SPI, was involved in preparing some of Jamie to the committee and, on behalf of the the data on which the screen unit collaborative committee, I extend our thanks to Jackson and proposal is based. Is that correct? Rachael for all the work that they did during their time on the committee. Andrew Barnes (Olsberg SPI): Yes. I invite Alexander Stewart and Jamie Greene to The Convener: On the underlying data about declare any interests that are relevant to the the screen sector in Scotland, what is your feeling committee. about what you had to work with in preparing the data for the report? Alexander Stewart (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con): I have no interests that are relevant to the Andrew Barnes: The overall impression is that committee. I very much look forward to being part there is a lot of data out there, but we are perhaps of the committee. lacking coherent data—a number of data sets that align and can be used in a single fashion. As you Jamie Greene (West Scotland) (Con): I pay will note from the report that we wrote, we had to tribute to my colleagues for the work that they did put in a range of findings for turnover, gross value on the committee and I look forward to being on added and full-time equivalent employee numbers the committee. Given the external relations on the basis that we could not be sure from the element of the committee’s work, I declare that I data that we would not double count. There are a am a member of the cross-party group on building variety of reasons for that. I do not know whether bridges with Israel and the cross-party group on you want me to go into those at this stage or Taiwan. whether you have a follow-up question. The Convener: Thank you. You are both very The Convener: It is quite a technical issue for welcome. many of us, but some of the comments in your report leap out. One of those is about the risk of double counting, which you have addressed in some of your figures. Are you satisfied that the data does not contain any double counting? Andrew Barnes: We can be satisfied that the lower-end estimate does not contain any double counting, but the risk then is of undercounting. From the available data, we could not—at least not without a significant amount of granular research, which was beyond the scope of the project—identify precisely what production

3 24 MAY 2018 4

company did what in Scotland. The use of the underestimate of the impact of that part of the Office for National Statistics-level statistics and screen sector. Even if the beneficial owner of such Companies House filings on which companies are a cinema is not domiciled in Scotland, the wages in which standard industrial classification code got that it pays to Scottish residents and employees us a certain amount of the way. The production still have a downstream impact on the Scottish spend data from Creative Scotland got us a economy. It is a tricky balance to strike. That is certain amount of the way in the other direction. why we disaggregated the information in the way What we cannot tell with any precision is where that we did. We wanted to make it clear which bit those overlap in the middle and the degree of that related to Scotland-domiciled companies with a overlap. Scottish tax base and which bit related only to Scottish employees who would receive some The Convener: Has anyone ever questioned benefit from that employment. the data? The Convener: So Creative Scotland asked Andrew Barnes: Not to my knowledge. you to include that information; you were not The Convener: What implications do the initially inclined to do so. concerns that you have pointed out have for the Andrew Barnes: I cannot remember which of ambitious targets that the screen unit sets for our clients—Creative Scotland, Skills increasing production spend? Development Scotland or Scottish Enterprise— Andrew Barnes: The major challenge that you asked us to do that. I would have to look back face as a nation in increasing production spend is through my notes to find that out. to be able to identify the degree to which you have The Convener: Thank you very much. I hand increased production spend and to accurately over to Claire Baker. measure the impact of that at a future stage. We work across many countries starting at a much Claire Baker (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab): It lower base level than that in Scotland in might be helpful if the panel could outline what implementing screen support systems. We always areas of data are to be prioritised. Mr Barnes has tell those countries that including data collection talked only about the economic impact, but we provisions as part of an investment is required in have had submissions on audience participation order to be able to accurately determine the and the softer value of the sector. Where are there impact of that investment. gaps in Scotland’s knowledge? In which areas do we need to increase the data? In Scotland, a certain degree of that exists, but it has to be asked how one puts in place a data Alex Tosta (British Film Institute): I can tell collection methodology that makes it possible for you how the BFI would approach such an issue. the impact of the investments to be evaluated First, we would identify the outcome that we against the targets, and to track that back to the wanted to achieve from any research or data starting position. Unfortunately, the first part of that collection. We would use that to identify the key might not be possible, but the second part is and critical questions that needed to be answered, absolutely critical. and we would follow that up by identifying what data was already available and what data needed The Convener: Are you satisfied that we have a to be accessed. It depends on what your priority is robust process in place in Scotland? for data collection and any additional research that Andrew Barnes: I have not seen any data on needs to be carried out. I do not know whether— the process for the screen unit proposal, so I Claire Baker: I am sorry to interrupt. I do not cannot answer that. know whether the panel has had a chance to look The Convener: Okay. Before we move on, I in detail at the screen unit proposals—a fairly want to ask a specific question about your data. lengthy and quite technical document has been You mentioned that you included cinemas with published. Are the intended outcomes clear non-Scotland domiciled owners—I assume that enough? As you said, that would lead on to what you were referring to multiscreen cinemas. information would need to be collected to reach Therefore, that data went into the overall that stage. Do you agree with the priorities that employment and investment figures for the screen have been identified? Do you think that they are sector in Scotland. For the purposes of our inquiry, the right ones? the average multiscreen is not what we are talking Alex Tosta: Because I look at data on a United about when we talk about boosting Scotland’s Kingdom level, I know that one of the limitations screen sector. Why was the data on such cinemas with any data is that there is not sufficient put in? granularity to go down to four-nation level. From Andrew Barnes: That was put in following what I saw in the documentation, that is one of the discussion with our clients. It was felt that, without priorities. There would need to be further that data, the overall report would provide an investigation of how that data could be obtained.

5 24 MAY 2018 6

Dr Michael Franklin (University of London): content—and it is important that those things are Those are really good points. The interrelation also measured in a Scottish context. between the data sets is extremely important. As I appreciate why the proposal needs to be film has been pointed out, at the UK level there are and TV-centric just now, but if we are to future certain things that every funder of films across the proof the new screen unit and the development of UK would like to know. There are also specific the Scottish industry, it will be important to take a questions that need to be asked to provide the holistic view of what “screen” is. necessary granularity at the Scottish level. Andrew Barnes: Coherence across the four nations is particularly important. My company is in 09:15 the process of finalising a revised economic However, any such system should be set up in impact study of the UK’s screen sector tax reliefs. such a way as to be part and parcel of the general At the outset of the process, one of the aims was business, as someone said. Although there should to try to identify, to the greatest extent possible, on be people with expertise in statistics and people a national and regional basis, the breakdown of who do research, the data should be part and UK-wide production spend and impact. The data parcel of what happens, such as the allocation of did not allow for that. Although Northern Ireland funding or the operation of the exhibitions sector. Screen, Creative Scotland and the Welsh I am talking about an approach whereby all the agencies collect data, they all do so in a slightly data feed through as part and parcel of what is different way, which leads to a lack of coherence. going on, as opposed to one in which every three If we are to be able to identify not just the impact or four years people have to think, “Are we doing it in Scotland as a nation but how Scotland right?” There should be a continuous, on-going compares to other nations in the UK that are process, and it should be linked to what goes on at identified in the screen sector proposal, it is the BFI—and also at European level. The role of important to have a degree of coherence across teamwork, especially in ensuring that data can be UK-wide data gathering that allows for such mapped across different areas, is important. comparisons to be drawn. Claire Baker: In your submission you mention Mairi Gougeon (Angus North and Mearns) the work of the University of Edinburgh. Are close (SNP): Skills Development Scotland told us: enough collaborations in place, or do collaborations need to be more developed? “Skills Development Scotland, in partnership with Creative Scotland, has funded and commissioned a Dr Franklin: They absolutely need to be more research programme to look at exactly what is going on developed in both sectors—of course I say that, as within the company base of the screen sector and, much more significantly, what is going on within Scotland’s an academic. Three things that are happening freelance workforce.”—[Official Report, Culture, Tourism, right now are really important—you will have seen Europe and External Relations Committee, 8 March 2018; c that in the creative industries sector review at 21.] Westminster. There are proposals to make links What do the witnesses hope will come from that with bids for Arts and Humanities Research work? Other people told us that they think that an Council funding. An interesting proposal from the annual survey should be carried out. What are University of Glasgow, which Dr Sorensen can talk your views on that? about, is through to the final round. Andrew Barnes: Interesting things are going on There is also a bid from the University of in the freelance workforce survey space at the Edinburgh, which is to do with data-oriented moment. Creative Skillset has recently started to creative industries analysis, and although film is redo research. In our report, we suggested that it not particularly mentioned in the bid, a great link had not done some for a while, which was correct could be made in that regard. There is expertise at the time. That work might have some value. To here that should be used and there is a great avoid the double use of resources, it would be confluence of interests that could be maximised, helpful to ensure that any work that is done aligns especially in the context of the work that Professor with what Creative Skillset is doing at the UK-wide Speed is doing on blockchain, for example. It level. Historically, it has broken things down into would be a win-win for everybody. nations and regions. Dr Inge Sorensen (University of Glasgow): It The freelance data is always a particularly is important to define the term “screen sector”. It difficult area. Although a lot of Scottish freelancers was interesting that the committee mentioned work in the UK’s film production and television Netflix in its interim report. The collaborative production sectors, the question of where they proposal is quite media-centric and focused on ordinarily work is key. That goes back to the film and TV, but the screen sector is many question of the definition of what you are trying to things—games, virtual reality, mobile and web achieve as a policy objective. Is it having Scottish

7 24 MAY 2018 8

workers, workers who are based in Scotland, or elsewhere that are effectively marshalling or co- workers who ordinarily work in Scotland? Those ordinating the data collection that is required to could be three different things. grow and sustain industries? The question of how we achieve granularity in Alex Tosta: As members know, I work in the the data to allow us to identify the Scottish research and statistics unit at the BFI. We have an freelance workforce, however we choose to define extensive database that helps us to provide what it, is key. To be honest, I have never seen anyone is in essence a compendium of all statistics across answer that question, and I do not know that there a range of areas in film, which is in our statistical is a straightforward answer to it. yearbook. Within that, we have statistics on not just the value chain of box office through Mairi Gougeon: From reading the evidence, it distribution et cetera but on audiences, education seems that there is quite a lot of missing data on and film economy, which relates to the GVA of film freelance workers. We have read in the evidence in the UK and levels of employment. We also look that we have received that they have not seen that at public investment, which goes beyond the tax it has been up to them to take part in some of the relief to see who are the other public funders of other reviews that have been done. Do you think film in the UK. that the review in question will be able to identify gaps in the skills requirements of companies in the The issue for the committee is that I provide sector? data at the UK level, but it is obvious that the committee wants data at a Scottish level. A lot of Andrew Barnes: It should be able to do so to the time, such data is not easily available. As the some degree, at least at a high level. If you are committee is about to go on to the issue of looking at which departments in a production production, I will use that as an example. We track sector have gaps, the line producers and all productions of films in the UK, but it is difficult producers will be able to identify where they have to get data to identify where the spending in the difficulties hiring. To get a breakdown to exact UK is being done. The nearest that we get to that grades so that we know exactly what level of is getting data on the location of shoots. For seniority is being looked for might prove to be a bit example, we will know that a production is shot in more difficult, because the industry is very fluid. Scotland, but we will not know for how long or how People in it move around a lot for work, and what much money the production is spending in is true one day might not be entirely true the next Scotland. That is just one of the issues. day if a different production comes up and takes somebody from Scotland to somewhere else in the To go back to what I said originally, quite a world. comprehensive range of data is already freely available at UK level. I know that you want it at a As I have said, it is a tricky challenge. I noticed granular level, but we are, unfortunately, limited by that there was something in one proposal about the data that is available. To go back to production using the workforce databases. That is always a spend, another limitation is that budgets for a challenge, because the most senior members of production on the ground do not provide much crew do not like to go on to them, as they see data. A production might want to do a month’s doing so as a sign that they cannot get work in any shooting in Scotland, but the budget will just be for other way. The industry is such a word-of-mouth the shoot as a whole and will not say where it is one that they would probably reject that approach. taking place. Finding a way to identify where the gaps are at a high level should be able to be done, but I suspect Ross Greer: I presume that that problem is not that it is only when people start to work and put unique to the UK and that we would find that courses together that the really granular stuff will colleagues in the US, for example, where become more apparent. productions are shot across multiple states, would have similar problems when trying to break down Mairi Gougeon: Should there be an annual that data. survey to be able to build data? Alex Tosta: I do not know much detail about Andrew Barnes: That would probably be what goes on in other countries regarding helpful, but there will also have to be a certain production; I know about that only in a general degree of qualitative rather than purely way. However, it is pretty much the way that you quantitative data gathering as part of that. describe. When a large US studio comes to the Ross Greer (West Scotland) (Green): Before I UK to shoot, it will be able to say what its UK move on to a specific question about production budget is and what its spend is elsewhere, but if it spend, I want to ask about a frustration that we has done some shooting in Scotland, it will not be have come across a number of times from the able to say how much was done in Scotland and industries. There is a sense that wheels are being how much that cost. reinvented that do not have to be. Can anyone cite examples of public body screen unit equivalents

9 24 MAY 2018 10

Andrew Barnes: On Mr Greer’s point about the what happens in the Danish context, where the United States, because of the different way in film law is set every four years, and everybody has which film incentives work in the US—we finished a stake. There is a consultation between some work in the state of Georgia about a year stakeholders, the various industry bodies and the ago on this—there tends to be good data on policy makers. People know that it is coming up production spend on a state-by-state basis and they know how to inform the policy-making because it is the states that incentivise the process. That generates trust, although I am sure production. The same applies in Australia and in that it also generates distrust. It is also a form of Canada, where the provinces provide incentives. quality control, because the industry and As a result, there is audited spend data that stakeholders can say that there are issues facing provides good detail. In some provinces, such as the industry that need to be discussed and that British Columbia, it is even possible to break down need to be integrated into the policy for the next the data into parts of the province, because there four years. are additional incentives that provide uplifts for There is therefore a degree of collaboration but economically deprived areas. That is relatively also a degree of quality control. Complaints or common in those sorts of state-level jurisdictions issues can come up in that process. It can also in federal countries. drive important structural changes to the industry. A lot of countries do this well and do a lot of For example, the Danish film law has quite a big work on it. We have recently worked in Australia, budget allocation linked to it and the policy puts a which has very good data, and we have worked in priority on creating non-format content—web Canada, the United States and most European content and VR. Budget is then allocated to that countries. They all have good data to a degree, priority. Sweden has 50:50 gender targets that are but it depends on their particular aims—they enshrined in policy. always collect data based on what they are trying You can make policy decisions that match to prove. They could always put more money into Government priorities and industry and data gathering and analysis, but that is kind of like stakeholder priorities. It seems to be quite a asking, “How long is a piece of string?” The proactive and good way of organising screen question is always how much value that would policy. So far, in a sense, Creative Scotland has add. decided what its priorities would be for the screen Dr Sorensen: Maybe it would be helpful to look sector. I am sure that that takes a lot of energy, at the Scandinavian countries. There seem to be time and resources, whereas if the priorities are a two needs for statistics here. One is the need to given and it is the agency’s role to best deliver that drive the industry and tell us what the Scottish particular film policy, that might create a better and screen sector is really like; and the other, more transparent process. specifically in this context, is the need to drive Ross Greer: That is a really useful example— policy. The Scandinavian countries produce film thank you. law every four years that decides what the sector should do and gives direction and budgets to the Dr Franklin: Mr Barnes made an interesting screen funders. In that process, there is point about how you can always spend more on collaboration between the Government, which sets gathering data but it is a “How long is a piece of down the law, and the screen agencies, string?” question. There is a level of uncertainty stakeholders and the industry. In that context, data about how data will be used and to what benefit. becomes very relevant and interesting in deciding There is an element of risk, because we do not what happens in the next four years. That could be know the ultimate benefits if we go down that a relevant example for the committee to consider. route. I think that that explains why, historically, there has been a bit of a lack of wanting to Ross Greer: That is a good example. Is there participate or to collect data within Scotland. The an element of trust that makes that process question is: what will the benefits be? easier? If the production companies have a level of trust in the public agencies and in the There is on-going uncertainty about that, which Government, is there more of a collaborative requires work to be done. The European approach and a willingness to share data than Audiovisual Observatory deals with data from all there may be in countries where there is a more the different areas across Europe and finds great challenging relationship between production variety in the resources that are applied. For companies and the state? example, if we look at the BFI and the applied thinking of CNC in France, which put huge amounts of resources into it, we can see the 09:30 applications. It is about taking the best practice, Dr Sorensen: That is a really interesting way of exactly as Dr Sorenson said, and applying that, looking at it. You could also look at it in a within the idea that some of it will be uncertain and completely different way. I know the most about experimental.

11 24 MAY 2018 12

The Convener: Richard Lochhead has a leveraging that duty tends to be the approach that supplementary. most jurisdictions take. Richard Lochhead (Moray) (SNP): The The Convener: You mentioned the states in discussion about the issue of trust began to America and the provinces of Canada. Have you address my question, which is about how the data looked at how rigid they are about making sure is made robust. Clearly, the reasons why we want that companies that say that they are spending the data include ensuring that companies fulfil their money in Georgia, British Columbia or wherever obligations in relation to filming and spending in are doing so? How does that compare with how Scotland. In response to getting public support, we test the data here? companies have to show that they have spent Andrew Barnes: I cannot speak to how you test money in Scotland. How do you ensure that the that data here. I have never looked at that issue in data is robust, especially with companies from detail, so I refer you to Creative Scotland. outside Scotland that are filming here? Other jurisdictions tend to be very robust in Alex Tosta: Are you asking whether the determining where the spend happens, although statistics, the data and the research are robust there have been cases in the UK where audited and valid and therefore of good quality and can be spend statements have been proven to be trusted, or are you asking about the process of— incorrect and people have ended up in jail as a Richard Lochhead: I am asking about the result. We also know from conversations with process of how the data is collected, who collects producers in Ontario that the volume of checking it and who ensures that it is checked. that is required has led to a lag in how long it takes them to get their funding back from the provincial Alex Tosta: I will have to refer back to the BFI tax credit system. practice in responding to that. We produce all our statistics and research for the public and industry That all speaks to systems that are robust, that good. Because we produce official statistics, we take a lot of care in how the money is returned to follow the statistics code of practice under which productions that have availed themselves of tax all stats must be for the public good. By following credit systems and other selective funding the code, we develop a sense of quality and trust systems and where producers tend to see putting in the statistics. That feeds into a circle in which in place that audit requirement as a cost of doing companies are more willing to give their data to us business. in general. The Convener: Two things are going on here. I have noticed a large appetite in the film sector The first, which is what we are talking about, is for more data. Whenever we have user incentives for film, mainly through Creative engagement, we find that the sector wants more Scotland or the UK Government. Secondly, as you data and is willing to share it. However, there is are aware, a separate Ofcom review on the not a natural ingrained process in film for sharing regulation of out-of-London spend is taking place. data. The best example of how data is shared in The issue of robustness applies to both those my job is through the certification process, through elements, does it not? which a film can be officially certified as British and Andrew Barnes: It should. Again, I cannot so tax relief can be claimed. Companies do that in speak to how Ofcom collects its data, because I part because they see a benefit for the production have never looked into that in detail. of the film, but also because the process has been established for many years and has been officially Stuart McMillan (Greenock and Inverclyde) reviewed. That is backed up by a team that has (SNP): Mairi Gougeon asked whether there should gone out to the industry and provided guidance on be a yearly update of data. Surely a real-time how it can provide data. model should be applicable instead of a yearly update? We need to have a mix of all those aspects. You could look at the situation in Scotland but, as Inge Andrew Barnes: What is meant by “real-time” Sorensen has mentioned, it would be useful to see in this context? The questions that we were sent in what other countries do, too. The Danish example advance referred to previous evidence to the is a good one of on-going user engagement. I committee, and when I worked through that have found that to be vital for developing trust in evidence, I could not find the term. What is meant any part of the data and statistics process. by that particular term and what does it propose? Andrew Barnes: The standard way to ensure Stuart McMillan: I was thinking about other that people have met their obligations is to have sectors. Before I became a parliamentarian, I the data audited. Auditors tend to be required in worked in an electronics company. Data was every incentive system and for public funding collected daily. I am not suggesting that that where there are such spend requirements. They should be done because it would be difficult for the have a duty under law in signing off data, and wider sector. However, it would be useful to have

13 24 MAY 2018 14

weekly or monthly updates, and it would be helpful In a way, people in the film industry appreciate in relation to data collection for further analysis. that. They ask a question at the development stage of a production, but that question will Andrew Barnes: One of the things that we change by the time they want to release the film. have found when working around the world is that You have to be constantly on top of that. production companies—I will speak about production companies in this case—anticipate that if they have real-time data about what is being 09:45 produced, what the market is doing, and what Consistency is also part of ensuring quality. I consumers are interested in, they will be able to may sound as though I am going round the make films or television programmes that fulfil houses, but I am thinking about the stats delivery those particular demands. The challenge for the process. I know that the committee wants data on sector is that the lead time on production is so employment as well as skills and production great that it can take three years for a film or a spend. Such data can be provided consistently television programme to go from idea to final and, with user engagement, the data can be content—it even takes a while to build a physical adapted to be more suitable for the film industry in facility such as a studio. By then, the data that was year 5, because there have been changes available at the start is no longer relevant to the between year 1 and year 5. I hope that that is market into which the content is released. clear enough. The question that I would ask about real-time Stuart McMillan: That is helpful. It takes me data is how it will be used. It goes back to that back to Dr Sorenson’s point about the “How long is a piece of string?” question. Is there Scandinavian model and the four-year cycle. value in asking people to collect that data? Is it Would it be useful to implement that kind of based on the particular needs of the market and flexibility and joint approach here, bearing in mind the people who are administering the product? It is Mr Tosta’s points? not something that we have ever identified as a major concern. Dr Sorensen: To return to Mairi Gougeon’s question about skills and the freelance base, there Stuart McMillan: That is helpful. I wanted to is a need for a better, more granular test that area because of my previous experience understanding of how freelancers work in outside Parliament. Scotland, how much they earn and what industries A few moments ago, Mr Tosta made a point they work across—a screenwriter will often be about the industry wanting more data. Are the engaged in a variety of genres and functions requests and specifications for the data clear throughout the year, perhaps writing for a enough? How much flexibility is there around that, corporate job one week and then working on a in the context of the changing nature of the sector feature film the next. and the changing data that could be required? There is often a skill drain from Scotland to Alex Tosta: From the documentation that we London and towards other industries. We need to were sent, it looks as though the film industry is find out how freelancers who engage in the sector asking for quite standard data. You would naturally work, how they make their money and what we have to go back constantly to do user engagement can do to keep them creative and working in the and talk to the industry to make sure that the data screen sector in Scotland. We can then determine adapts to the changes in the industry. how we drive future development in Scotland. That could feed into trying to identify future trends, such A prime example of that is that, 10 years ago, as whether people are starting to work and my team was mainly looking at the value chain develop content for Netflix more and are doing and public investment. That data collection is now less for the BBC and so on. extended and goes further into audiences and education. That is because of constant user If we can see where the industry is moving and engagement. what people are doing, that will enable us to identify the skills needs and consider what it takes As we have mentioned definitions, for me, for people to continue being creative in Scotland, flexibility is all about the parameters of the such as tax incentives and so on. That could feed statistics and the data. It is about the timeliness of into bigger statistics, although not the work that the real-time data, as well as accuracy. You have Alex Tosta is doing. Does that answer your to be responsive to what the industry wants in question? I veered a bit off course. relation to the data that you collect and what you want to collect data on, but you have to bear in Stuart McMillan: It sounds as though we need mind that you cannot make such changes to move to a big data approach, potentially without immediately in statistics; it does not happen that the clarity of what that data should be and what is quickly. required. There are also some questions about whether the screen unit will have the technology,

15 24 MAY 2018 16

capability and skills to gather and collate that and culture, and the economy is bigger and better, information. but when it comes to collecting employment data we still seem to have some gaps in the process. Is Dr Sorensen: It has to be delivered that because there is not enough investment? retrospectively, as Alex Tosta said. You might Does that have an impact on the whole process? need to engage in a census that would then feed How can the gap in the employment sector data into a bigger data set around that. be filled? Alex Tosta: You have just described the Alex Tosta: I seem to be the first to answer all parameters of a data system. I think that you were the questions. At the BFI, when we report on talking about how to reach a starting point and that employment in the industry at a UK level, we get goes back to understanding the primary purpose our data from the Office for National Statistics. The and the fundamental questions that you want data is collected from its various business surveys answered. I may sound as though I am repeating and population surveys. I mention business myself, but that is fundamental from the because I look at the whole of the GVA and the perspective of research, data and statistics. Once number of companies. One issue that we face you have clearly defined those things, you can when trying to provide data at a lower level, such decide on an approach and methodology to get as at the level of the four nations or at regional the data. level, is that often the data has been suppressed, It is important to have user engagement running because that information might disclose either an in parallel with that, so that the film industry is individual or a company. That is one data issue involved in shaping its own industry and having a that I have in relation to Scotland. I was checking say in the statistics that are used to describe the employment figures yesterday and found that they industry so that they are appropriate. Whether to had been suppressed for parts of Scotland, so that start off by running an annual census or by taking hinders me from providing a UK picture. an audit of the available Scotland-specific data is It would be difficult to fill that gap; the official up for discussion, which is probably better done statistics will always be suppressed because of outside the committee. the rules and regulations around disclosure There are certain issues that certain control. There would need to be further methodologies will not help. Inge Sorensen investigation into whether you should do additional mentioned freelancers. We know from the work research or additional data collection. The rest of that Creative Skillset has done that it is difficult to the panel may have something to add to that. get data on freelancers, because of the whole Andrew Barnes: We would probably approach definition of freelancers and the behaviour and it from the ground up, at company level. We activity of that type of employee and employer. worked on that kind of project recently in the That is just one example. For me, it is all about Republic of Ireland and we had to approach it from setting out parameters first, based on the desired the ground up, looking at individual companies outcome and the questions that you want to be and identifying the number of people working for answered. Once you have those sorted, you can them through a survey. We did the same thing in then discuss methodologies, real-time data and the current UK screen sector tax reliefs work for what data we will look at in the future. the games sector, because of the particular issues Research and statistics are, by their nature, around SIC codes in that industry. I cannot see retrospective, as Inge Sorensen mentioned. That another way of doing it, other than through a is because we have to collect data at a certain primary survey. point in time and then report on it. There is no Alexander Stewart: Does the investment escaping that. I know that companies such as behind it have an impact, or not to the same Netflix say that they can record what their viewers degree? are watching or what their directors are making immediately, but they have a very different set-up Andrew Barnes: I have not seen any evidence from how most statistics are collected in any of it having an impact. industry. It is important for the committee to know Alexander Stewart: Do you have nothing about that in its further considerations on a screen collated that would identify that as an issue? unit for Scotland. Andrew Barnes: No. The Convener: Thank you. Two more members want to ask questions, so it would be helpful if Jamie Greene: I want to voluntarily declare an people could keep their answers succinct. interest, in that I worked in the television production sector for 13 years before I came to the Alexander Stewart: We have talked about Parliament, so this is a subject that is close to my skills, but I would like to look at how employment heart. fits into the process. We have a growing cultural sector, we have more people working in the arts

17 24 MAY 2018 18

I want to pick up on a point that Dr Sorensen themselves—as with Netflix, which people can made about definitions of the sector. When I was watch anywhere and anyhow—or, in the gaming in television production, we would get very excited world, from what I have gleaned from the little that about the overnights if we had a couple of hundred I know about it, they kind of know what is going on thousand viewers, but the reality today is that and there is a lot of network infrastructure. people across the length and breadth of the Overall, it is difficult. At the moment, we have a country are making content that is achieving structured and almost traditional approach to millions of views overnight, and they are collecting data on those new areas, but they are monetising that. not traditional, and they work slightly differently. In Given that the sector has evolved from a way, the data gathering has not really adapted traditional film and television production into the enough to fit them. It is difficult to suggest anything online world, web production, content in the without looking further into those areas, doing charitable or not-for-profit sector, VR and gaming more on-the-ground work and getting more production and advertising, how do we best collect involved. I know that Ukie, as the trade body, data on all those other aspects of the production speaks a lot to the games sector and does a lot of sector, which are the ones that we probably talk events just to get people more involved, even with about the least, and who should be responsible for certification. That may be one approach involving collecting it? more on-the-ground work. That is just a small suggestion. Dr Sorensen: That is a big question. One way to look at the issue is that, currently, most screen Jamie Greene: Does the panel have any views work is very focused on stimulating and funding on the gathering of data on the gender pay production—the screen unit will be, too—but there disparity in the industry? We talk about that a lot in is not much data on distribution, because it is hard other industries, but we perhaps do not talk about to get, as companies do not want to disclose it. If it very much in the screen sector. Is any qualitative we look at distribution data as much as production or quantitative data produced on whether, for data, it might provide different optics on the sector. example, women freelancers are paid the same The way forward is to define what the screen rates as their male counterparts, or on the sector is and then collate the data from the representation of women in the industry and different agencies that have information about whether specific roles are dominated by one sex inward investment, productions that are funded or the other? How much data is produced on that here and broadcast productions. I do not have a and where could we do better in that respect? quick fix, but certainly it would be helpful to have more data on distribution and where things are 10:00 seen and distributed to. I do not know whether that is even possible. Alex Tosta might know more. Dr Sorensen: There is a report on diversity in Scotland. I was a producer before I came back Alex Tosta: The digital landscape has created a into academia 10 years ago. The problem is not so new extension to the screen sector. When you much with gender pay; it is about how to keep start getting into it, film is quite nebulous. It women in the business once they start families. appears to be structured, but there are elements That issue is not unique to Scotland; it is a pan- that do not have much structure. That sometimes world thing. It is not a particularly family-friendly makes it difficult to gain any information about it, industry, and that is certainly why I left. That is just beyond official data collection or the way in which an observation. the BFI looks at production—we actually employ someone to track production in the UK. There is a Dr Franklin: I would flag up that there are many general difficulty in understanding what the new initiatives that are addressing the issue, and it is digital area is, let alone starting to track it, what it really important for the screen unit to engage with is doing and what it contributes to the economy those. There is an initiative on parenting in film, overall. which is called Raising Films, and another called Women in Film and Television. Both of those At the BFI, we have started with an approach specific UK initiatives are doing really good work. that is in a way basic, although it is still quite At international level, there is the Annenberg complex. That involves following productions and inclusion rider on the issue of pay equality, which developments in high-end television, children’s can be put into contracts. At budgetary level, when television, animation television and video games public funding is applied for and received, the that are going through the certification process budget will have a breakdown, certainly at a high and trying to become officially British. That is just a level, of the named-cast pay. The funders have starting point. In a way, the sector has traditionally that information, and certainly the commercial not been in the world of data sharing or providing bodies will have it. It is absolutely vital to data to see what is going on. It appears that foreground the importance of those issues. companies either want to keep within

19 24 MAY 2018 20

The second part of your question was about 10:05 representation on screen. I would like to flag up On resuming— the great work that is being done by Mr Tosta’s colleagues in the BFI. On Monday, Mr Anderson Annual Report from the BFI did a presentation about using its filmography database to allocate where different The Convener: Our third item of business is genders and ethnicities are being represented and consideration of the committee’s draft annual underrepresented in the filmography of British film. report for 2017-18. Before I invite members to Scotland absolutely needs to engage with that comment, I have a couple of observations to work as a partner. make. The Convener: I thank all our witnesses for In paragraph 18 on page 9, I think that we coming to give evidence. should put in an additional sentence that explains that we have agreed to wait for the Migration 10:02 Advisory Committee to publish its final report for Meeting suspended. the Home Office, which it will do later this year, before we return to our immigration inquiry. That is what we decided to do, which is why we have not taken any more evidence on that subject. I think that the addition of a sentence to that effect would clarify matters. Do members agree? Members indicated agreement. The Convener: My only other observation is that there is a typo in the second bullet point in paragraph 29 on page 12. I ask for that to be fixed, please. Do members have any comments? Jamie Greene: You will be surprised to hear that I have a comment to make, given that I am a new member of the committee. I have a general observation. I made a similar observation in relation to the annual report of another committee of which I am a member. I am trying to gently encourage all committees to include a section or sections on equalities and human rights and accessibility. I want to make sure that the work that committees do is as accessible as possible. I had quite a robust conversation with my colleagues on the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee about what more committees could do to ensure that the work that they do is as accessible as possible to users who are deaf or blind. That could include the use of British Sign Language or the subtitling of committee meetings. We must make sure that the work that committees do gets out to the widest range of people. I am pleased that, as a result of that conversation, the Rural Economy and Connectivity Committee decided to include a section on the equalities impacts of the work that it has done over the past year. That is perhaps an issue for all committees to reflect on. The Convener: Thank you very much. That was an important and useful suggestion. As a committee, we have responded to the Equalities and Human Rights Committee’s request for information on those very subjects. I can make

21 24 MAY 2018 22

that response available to you. It is certainly an Are members content to sign off the report for area that we should be aware of; perhaps we publication? It will be circulated once the could cover it in our business planning day, to suggested amendments have been made. make sure that we always keep it in mind in the Members indicated agreement. future. Do members have any other comments? 10:08 Claire Baker: On page 7, the report talks about Meeting continued in private until 10:37. our Erasmus+ inquiry, but there is no mention of universities and their involvement in the Erasmus+ programme. The Convener: Yes, it is important that mention of universities is included. We took evidence from the University Council for Modern Languages Scotland on the importance of delivering modern languages courses in our universities. That was important evidence, which, as I recall, was highlighted in the press release that accompanied the publication of our Erasmus+ report. Therefore, the annual report should certainly mention universities in that context.

This is the final edition of the Official Report of this meeting. It is part of the Scottish Parliament Official Report archive and has been sent for legal deposit.

Published in Edinburgh by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, the Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh, EH99 1SP

All documents are available on For information on the Scottish Parliament contact the Scottish Parliament website at: Public Information on: www.parliament.scot Telephone: 0131 348 5000 Textphone: 0800 092 7100 Information on non-endorsed print suppliers Email: [email protected] is available here: www.parliament.scot/documents