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PUBLISHER'S STATEMENT

Sensible Violence The shooting of has been to Advertising Age, the five major tobacco before money." I pointed out that referred to as "senseless violence." It companies spent more than $62 million 's accepting a cigarette ad kind of makes you wonder exactly what on magazine ads the previous year. In would make Larry look like a public sensible violence is. The difference seems the seven years since the ban took effect hypocrite, since he had already pub- to be that senseless violence isn't per- that figure has surpassed the $800- lished an antismoking article and those mitted by law. million mark. shocking antismoking ads. Sensible violence allows landlords to The American Cancer Society has He replied that if we were to get any ignore peeling paint that, when tasted concluded that since cigarette ads were cigarette ads, they would be published by curious infants, can result in death by taken off the air, more than a million only if HUSTLER could continue its lead poisoning. and a half smokers in this country have antismoking editorial stance. Obviously, Sensible violence enables the liquor died of diseases related to cigarettes. we are unlikely to be offered any lobby to persuade legislators not to pass It was recently stated in the Columbia cigarette advertising under such terms_ a bill that would require funds to be Journalism Review by Managing Editor Well, that's the way the ashes scatter. allocated for the rehabilitation of R. C. Smith: "A survey of the leading motorists arrested for drunken driving. national magazines that might have There is a terrible irony in all this Sensible violence is getting the high- been expected to report on the subject American citizens with compassion for est possible percentage of the popula- reveals a striking and disturbing pat- others are nevertheless busy working for tion hooked on coffee, and then—be- tern. In magazines that accept cigarette tobacco companies and gun manufac- cause caffeine is naturally bitter— there advertising I was unable to find a single turers alike. Somehow they are able to is mass sugar addiction to boot. article, in seven years of publication, separate themselves from the conse- Sensible violence is displayed in that that would have given readers any clear quences of their labor because they haw.. TV commercial in which a famous notion of the nature and extent of the families to support. actress tries to make parents feel guilty medical and social havoc being wreaked The real struggle is not between for not feeding their kids Twinkies, by the cigarette-smoking habit. The capitalism and communism. It is not be- manufactured by ITT, the same folks records of magazines that refuse cigar- tween Eastern and Western religions. who sabotaged the legally elected ette ads, or that do not accept advertis- Rather, it is in the effort to find ways of Allende government in Chile. ing at all, were considerably better." bringing spiritual values into economic Sensible violence is the production Once I wrote in National Lampoon, systems—as well as into bed—so that and distribution of cigarettes, justified "Anybody who buys cigarettes because people can become more important than by a printed warning about danger to they're advertised here deserves to die of products, and every form of violence can your health, a warning that has become cancer." The Lampoon printed my com- be rendered senseless. That is what as meaningless as playing "The Star- ment, but decided to omit "of cancer." HUSTLER is really all about. And it's Spangled Banner" before a ball game. When Larry Flynt first appointed me why Larry Flynt sends this bedside Publisher of HUSTLER, he said, "You message: "I'm coming back stronger Cigarette advertising was banned on don't have to accept cigarette ads if you than ever, fightin' like a bear." radio and television in 1971. According don't want to. Principles have to come —

HUSTLER JULY 5 . . . 0.07 .14g ' r

w W 9111M■I INTERVIEW

lh PAUL KRASSNER The Naked Truth At the age of six, HUSTLER Publisher Paul Ellis and asked him if he had any unpub- Lampoon and Crawdaddy. Krassner found himself onstage at Carnegie lished material Ellis submitted articles on Then, in December of last year, Larry Hall with a violin tucked under his chin. the then-taboo subjects of masturbation and Flynt invited Paul to our annual Christmas Considered to be a child prodigy, he made a petting; these are part of Ellis 's book Sex party and not only named him Publisher of conscious decision at that very moment to Without Guilt (, $4.95), which HUSTLER but also announced that The become a rebel Paul calls a 'Predecessor to the sexual revolu- Realist would resume publication. As president of his high school's student tion of the '60s." While at The Independent, though the news came as a complete court, the young rebel made a name for him- Krassner free-lanced artits---jor Mad surprise—Krassner assumed he was invited self by subpoenaing the principal and charg- magazine and wrote skits for The Steve to perform a comedy routine—it appears in ing him with conflict of interest: The educa- Allen Show. At the same time, heTvaTs—ding retrospect to have been inevitable. Like Larry tor came from a rival school In 1954, need- occasional stand-up comedy in the New York Flynt, Paul comes from a long tradition of to complete only one course to graduate, area and at colleges around the country. iconoclasts and truth-seekers. As he points Krassner dropped out of the City College of In 1958, Paul began publishing The out, with some tongue in cheek, "When the New York. A year earlier he had begun his Realist. For Me next 16 years he put out the first so-called leaders of cavemen were writ- apprenticeship in journalism at Expose magazine fairly regularly—in his words, ing on cave walls, there was some upstart (renamed The Independent), a publication "shocking the shit out of the Establishment outside writing something else on the rocks, run by Lyle Stuart in . The and the readership." He managed to subsi- in opposition to what was officially being tabloid covered topics — cancer research, dize the publication throughout this period written on the cave walls." So it's little government corruption, monopolies, to name by taking on additional assignments: con- wonder that Paul Krassner is now Publisher but a few—that 25 years later are still hot tributing editor to ; editor of his of HUSTLER. the current "opposition stone" items in the media. Eventually, Paul became friend 's autobiography. How to in America. Our Editorial Director, Bruce managing editor of The Independent. Talk Dirty and Influence People; film critic David, questioned Krassner about how he Through his association with Lyle Stuart for Cavalier magazine; co-editor with Ken will maintain his iconoclasm at HUSTLER and The Independent, Krassner came into KeseTTT-he Last Supplement to the Whole (under the stipulation that Paul keep his contact with sexual-ethics pioneer Albert Earth Catalog; and columnist for National clothes on during the interview).

HUSTLER: For the benefit of our readers who may not be living room or bedroom and not have to answer to anyone familiar with , could you describe the magazine but yourself, you should be able to do the same in print. and explain how it evolved over the years? But I learned that there was a lot of compartmentalization KRASSNER: The Realist was simply a magazine that pub- among people who called themselves free thinkers. They lished stuff no other publication would touch. I was doing might think freely about religion but not about sex. There stand-up comedy in the early '50s, when Lenny Bruce and were a lot of prudes in the free-thought movement, just as Mort Sahl were, but I didn't have the same show-business there are a lot of prudes in the nudist movement. They drive as they did. My bits about accept the anatomy but not the music to masturbate by and Senator physiology. Joe McCarthy weirded out the club HUSTLER: How did the sense of owners. humor and irreverence you intro- That type of humor and duced to this tradition eliminate that made The Realist. There were only compartmentalization? two humor magazines in this country KRASSNER: By being consistent. If then: Mad, which was aimed at teen- • irreverence applied to anything, it agers, and The New Yorker, which I would apply to everything. That was too lazy to read anything in but became a challenge because there are the cartoons. things in which you have a vested HUSTLER: In 1958, when you be- interest, and you have to apply gan The Realist, you were among a irreverence to those things as well. small faction concerned with freedom HUSTLER: For that time wasn't The of the press in America. Wasn't The Realist a radical publication, which Realist born out of a traditionally lib- caused a great deal of controversy? eral sensibility? What some people KRASSNER: Well, people have de- called the free-thought movement? fenses that are built up from early KRASSNER: Well, I've always felt childhood, and if you present an idea that is a logical to them in a way that makes them extension of . If laugh, quite often those defenses are you could talk about things in your dropped.: Suddenly, they may discover Photography by Frank DeLta HUSTLER JULY 39 they're holding onto a truth that's too questioned whether this was just an admit they were unaware of, because _„„,,hot to handle, and they get offended. ordinary act of necrophilia, or if LIU that would be bad for their image. So HUSTLER: Can you cite some of the was trying to change the front entry they scrambled around looking for the subject matter in The Realist that has wound into an exit wound in order to leak who fed me information. caused controversy? And what were the fool the . Ironically, HUSTLER: Was there any organized repercussions? that aspect of the wound is still a matter attempt by the government, through the KRASSNER: In the late '50s I once of controversy now. FBI or a similar group, to put The needed a note from my attorney ex- HUSTLER: You must have encoun- Realist out of business? plaining to the printer that it was OK to tered a lot of resistance from the Estab- KRASSNER: As I've said, there were print the words shit and fuck in an inter- lishment in the '50s and '60s, particular- some problems with the printers, and view with on the semantics ly over something like that. some complaints—made by people who of profanity. But in 1967 the shit really KRASSNER: I've already mentioned thought The Realist was obscene— that hit the fan when I published an issue the trouble we had with the printer over the police or local authorities would containing "The Parts Left Out of the the Ellis interview. When I was ready to investigate. Kennedy Book." publish the issue containing "The Parts But it wasn't until I got politically 's book The Death Left Out of the Kennedy Book," he active and helped organize the Yippies of a President was about to be published, refused to print it. I couldn't find any- and spoke out against the war in Viet- and Jackie Kennedy was trying to have one to do the job, not even the people nam that I became the target of an or- certain information omitted. Everyone who printed the Communist Party's ganized attack by the government. was wondering, "What could there newspaper, the Daily Worker. Even they I was beginning to surface from the possibly be that she didn't want wanted to maintain their respectability. so-called underground, and Life maga- printed?" So I tried to get hold of the (That issue also featured the "Disney- zine wrote a favorable profile of me in parts of the text she wanted cut, but land Memorial Orgy" centerspread, 1968. The FBI's New York office asked when I was unable to, I decided I'd which included Goofy fucking Minnie the bureau's headquarters in Washing- write them myself. I didn't make a con- Mouse on a cash register.) ton for authorization to send Life a fake scious decision to shock people; it just When the issue finally was printed, a letter calling The Realist "blatant ob- came about organically. great deal of controversy ensued. The scenity"—which was not true—and call- The account started off with a totally people who recognized that I had made ing me "a raving, unconfined nut"— true premise, and step by step—as if you up the material were upset that I bad which was true. were peeling off layers of an onion to get presented it as truth. The people who Apparently, publishing stuff for what to the core—led logically and dra- believed it were upset over its tasteless- they thought was a limited audience was matically to the climax. Jackie Kennedy ness. (The late Merriman Smith, a syn- one thing, but to help organize the confessed that on Air Force One, flying dicated UPI columnist, actually wrote a masses in protest over the John Kennedy's body from Dallas to column to assure the American public was something else again. Washington, she had discovered Lyn- that their presidents don't behave that HUSTLER: Once again, do you see a don Johnson crouching over Kennedy's way.) And even the intelligence com- parallel here between HUSTLER and corpse. In her own words (or my version munity was upset. The Realist? of her own words) she said: "There is HUSTLER: Why was that? KRASSNER: Yes, there is a connection. only one way to say this—he was literal- KRASSNER: First of all, people in high That fake letter—signed by "Harold ly fucking my husband in the throat. In levels of the intelligence community Rasmussen, College School of the wound in the front of his throat." know that stuff as bizarre as what I'd General Studies"—used "" as I also included commentary attrib- written about goes on all the time. They a smoke screen to attack my political uted to handwritten marginal notes didn't question the veracity of my re- activity. I think this is true in Larry from Manchester's publisher to check port; instead, they wanted to know how Flynt's case too. with a Warren Commission member. He I found out something they couldn't HUSTLER: So you feel HUSTLER is

40 JULY HUSTLER

really a political magazine? KRASSNER: By being channeled into have to answer to anyone but ourselves. IULASSNER: Definitely. Even without areas that perpetuate the power of the HUSTLER: Events that are happening the sexual content the magazine is high- Establishment; so that the soft-core por- in the world and the information about ly political. But because of the sex it's nography now being used in advertising them reported through the established explosive. Sexual expression is the most exploits and diverts the natural divine media like , the basic form of individual freedom. If a sexual energy into buying deodorants major networks, Time and the rest are culture can repress sexuality, it can easi- for every possible orifice. And that same often two distinctly different things. Is ly control its citizens in other ways. sexual energy has been diverted into there any question in your mind that HUSTLER: Conversely, if people can obedience in the military and society at there is a concerted effort by the govern- liberate themselves sexually, they can large. ment to control and manipulate infor- liberate themselves in other ways as The most basic element in all exis- mation put before the public? well. Do you feel that religion in tence is the life force, the perpetuation KRASSNER: None. It's like inhaling America today is still used as a tool to of the species. If you can control that and exhaling. If you do dirty shit, then perpetuate sexual repression and force, you can control society—and the you've got to cover it up. repressive control of society in general? people who control that drive according The birth of the so-called under- KRASSNER: That's an original func- to a society's arbitrary rules are usually ground press was related to this. As tion of organized religion: to control convinced they are noble people. Hitler more and more people got involved in sexuality. Of course, religion, too, has to thought he was a very noble individual being on the street and participating in change with the times. So it was no trying to spread his vision of nobility to the news instead of just watching it, they surprise to hear the Pope come out and the world. But I believe if there had saw a wide disparity between what they say, "OK, well, since you have to get been a free press in Nazi Germany, the experienced and the way it was divorced, you won't get excommuni- Holocaust might have been averted. reported. As a result, papers like the cated." I imagine that someday the HUSTLER: Then, by imparting infor- Berkeley Barb and the Free Pope might be forced into endorsing mation that reveals the kind of Press started happening everywhere. by artificial means, and the hypocrisy and manipulation the Estab- Once you find out that contemporary Church will rationalize it by presenting lishment uses to control the people, history is a lie, it raises the possibility some type of theological justification. doesn't it follow that HUSTLER and that maybe all history is a lie. They'll say if God didn't want dia- Larry Flynt have become a very HUSTLER: But HUSTLER is a national phragms to exist, She wouldn't have threatening element to the game the glossy magazine and possibly the first invented rubber trees. Establishment is playing? Isn't it in the 'magazine of its size to say to a large HUSTLER: How pervasive is the type Establishment's interest to eliminate cross section of what was once called the of sexual repression directly traceable to such a threat? Silent Majority: "America is lying to the influence of organized religion? KRASSNER: Sure. And claiming that you." HUSTLER: Everybody I've talked with the magazine's sexual content is por• KRASSNER: I think HUSTLER is part who had a strong religious upbringing— nographic is a convenient smoke screen of what could be called a growing anti- without exception—has claimed it to attack what constitutes a political Establishment empire. When we were fucked them up sexually. And they've threat. younger, there were magazines like Life, had to go through a lot of changes to There is a large group of people in The Saturday Evening Post, Collier's, overcome the fear, guilt and shame this country who have been ignored and Look—you could name a half-dozen about sex instilled in them by that betrayed by their own representatives in more—that people thought were as solid religious training. the political system. HUSTLER as the Rock of Gibraltar and would go HUSTLER: Aside from the obvious Magazine reaches those people and on forever. Those empires have fallen, problem of sexual dysfunction, how do represents their interests. We can show and new publications have grown in fear, guilt and shame about sex manifest them the hypocrisy in our culture — their place. HUSTLER is the key pub- themselves in a broader sense? including their own—because we don't (continued on page 52)

HUSTLER JULY 41 INTERVIEW: PAUL KRASSNER obscenity would have been encourage. me, saying, "Me and Charlie are still ment for that individual to strike out trying to figure out how long our leashes (continued from page 41) against his own fears. are and who's been pissin' on 'em." lication in this particular anti-Establish- HUSTLER: The court action, then, Which is a poetic way of saying that if ment empire. could have provided sanction, and the you're given sanction, you just don't ask HUSTLER: Paul, how dangerous is indictment and trial were orchestrated questions. HUSTLER to the Establishment? by the repressive Establishment? 'This same principle applies to Kent KRASSNER: It's hard to say how KRASSNER: Right. And this type of State. An FBI informant named Terry dangerous it is, but the truth is always thing takes on other forms. When I was Norman may have fired the first shot, dangerous to those who want to hide it. investigating the Manson case, an L.A. which caused the National Guard to But if it should come out (as I believe it Sheriff's deputy said that he and his open fire on the students demonstrating will) that whoever shot Larry in Georgia fellow officers had been told by their against the war. His action gave sanc- did it as a hit man for that unholy trinity superiors to leave Manson alone—this tion to the guardsmen. of government intelligence, corporate was prior to the Tate/LaBianca mur- The point is that by providing sanc- immorality and organized crime, then ders. The deputy told me they had said tion the government becomes a col- „flat danger that HUSTLER represents to something big was going to happen. I laborator in the crime. the Establishment must be very great. asked him what they said it would be, HUSTLER: There is an attempt to Of course, the media will be telling and he said he never questioned his reopen the Kent State investigation, but America that Larry was shot because of superiors. But when I asked him what it appears that the officials are dragging the in the magazine. the deputies had speculated, he said their heels again. HUSTLER: And they'll certainly try to they thought that Manson and his group KRASSNER: And the irony here is that defuse any presentation of the shooting were going to kill Black Panthers. it may be because of blackmail. There's as a political act. But at this point we In effect, the of the L.A. a book called A Sexual Profile of Men in know one thing: That whether or not it Sheriff's Department gave sanction to Power, in which the authors talk about —was a planned, organized the so-called Manson family, allowing it the kinky activities of a great percentage attempt, it reveals at the very least the the freedom to carry out its mis- of public officials; it's almost as if, in existence of organized repression. It sion ... which in the end proved to be order to compensate for their guilt at illuminates a mind-set shared by the the murders of and others, passing inhumane laws and regulating repressive elements in the Establish- not the slaughter of Black Panthers. If the enforcement of them, they have to ment and those people who are so afraid you're allowed to get away with parole compensate by being stomped on by of the truth that they co-opt their own violations as Manson had been—, some woman wearing high heels and freedom and encourage repression. forgery, violation of the Mann Act, then paying for it because their wives KRASSNER: Of course. Let's assume grand-theft auto—you may not know wouldn't do it. This is why it was par- that it was a lone, antiporn nut. The you're acting as an agent for the govern- ticularly interesting to me that CHIC legal maneuver of prosecuting Larry for ment. A prisonmate of Manson wrote published a piece on Senator Hayakaya, which gives documentation of his being into bondage, because he has come out against pornography. He has also com- plained—I even worked it into my com- edy act— that we were giving too many advantages to Russia in the arms race. I imagined him saying this line: "You can have the neutron bomb—I just want to keep my whips." HUSTLER: How does this relate to the Kent State issue? KRASSNER: Because we don't know how those officials are being black- mailed. The ones holding back the investigations. HUSTLER: Right. We do know that James Rhodes was governor of during the Kent State killings, and was out of office awhile and is now back in, and he's the same man who was running ra the state at the time when the new investigations were killed. KRASSNER: Yeah. I don't know if Governor Rhodes likes to spread chunky peanut butter on hookers, but I just somehow assume he has something to hide. I mean, look at G. Harrold Carswell—this is the man Richard Nix- on wanted to appoint to the Supreme Court. A while back he was arrested for propositioning a cop in a men's room. With the data banks they have, one (continued on page 102)

32 JULY HUSTLER Harvey Oswald a dupe like Manson or • INTERVIEW: PAUL KRASSNER learned that some of the same people who tend to be righteous, and who was he silenced because he knew too (continued from page 52) would enact antiporn laws and antisex much? could suspect they knew about that and laws, are themselves guilty of enjoying KRASSNER: Well, if he had been a would have something over him as a or living a hypocritical sexual existence. lone-nut assassin, you'd think that when Supreme Court justice. Abd the irony KRASSNER: Right. And with all the he was caught he would have said, "I would have been, had he been ap- various means of wiretapping and spy- did it and I'm proud." But he didn't say pointed to the Court, how he would ing we know are applied there, it proba- that. He had been encouraged to act out have decided on the constitutionality of bly means that a lot of this is known, so certain things by certain people who entrapment of homosexuals—which is there's a kind of unspoken blackmail didn't think he'd pull on his leash. He exactly what happened to him; he was that runs the government. J. Edgar had to be killed by Jack Ruby after he entrapped. So it can go all the way up to Hoover would go up to a senator and said, "I'm just a patsy-1 didn't kill any- that level. say, "I just want you to know, we have one," because he realized he had been HUSTLER: So, on a very real level, sex- this information about you that has been set up, and he probably would have ual liberation—especially in Congress, given to us. Somebody took films of you spilled the beans. ip„„ahe political machine itself—is a Scotch-taping your secretary—who HUSTLER: Do you think Larry Flynt's guarantee of freedom on many other can't type— to the wall. But I- just want ongoing investigation to get to the bot- levels. And what you're getting into now you to know that this is safe with us." tom of the Kennedy assassination had is even more immediate, because what Then if Hoover wanted to strengthen anything to do with what happened to we're saying here is that sexual reality the FBI or to extend its power, these him in Georgia? for all of us, and most particularly and guys were going to vote for it. Nothing KRASSNER: That's what I believe. It's crucially for politicians, is quite was ever said about "Hey, we're going to interesting to note that William Sullivan different from what Time and Newsweek blackmail you," but these people knew was Hoover's assistant director and would have you believe. that he knew and had the evidence. approved that poison-pen letter about KRASSNER: Sure. Because Time and HUSTLER: This type of blackmail, it me sent to Life. He was killed when a Newsweek get a lot of leaks from those would seem, is the key to suppressing hunter supposedly mistook him for a people. It's like a local reporter who's information. deer, shortly after the retired lawman working the police beat; he won't do an KRASSNER: Yes, but once you have accused the FBI of using illegal methods anticop story because he doesn't want to enough information and are sexually to track down members of the Weather ruin his sources. So they go in tandem. liberated, a law of physics applies. Underground in the early '70s. (Perhaps HUSTLER: We learned in Elizabeth Heated molecules stir each other up. If it's just a coincidence, but it may have Ray's case that sex on Capitol Hill is far you develop a healthy skepticism in one been a .44-caliber deer rifle that was more prevalent and far more kinky than area, it can very easily lead to skepticism used to shoot Larry.) our outstanding legislators would have in other areas. HUSTLER: We have a history of that the American public believe. We also HUSTLER: Would you consider Lee sort of thing. While the established press still scoffs at conspiracy theories sur- rounding the of JFK, RFK, and Martin Luther King, Jr., all reason points to a con- spiracy for such a massive, far-reaching series of events to occur within ten years. Particularly considering that all the witnesses or anyone close to the cases were killed or disappeared before they could reveal any information. This brings me to an important ques- tion: How free would you say America is today? KRASSNER: It's in a state of transition. It's almost as if it could go either way: toward a liberated society or toward a police state. The thing is, if unemployment keeps increasing, for example, cops won't think of a police state as a horror. They'll think of it in terms of jobs. The government deliberately wants there to be an element of stress in simple survival so that people are concerned with how they're going to get the rent money or pay the food bill. The govern- ment does that because of the insane priority it places on keeping the world armed for overkill rather than putting that money into humanistic programs— and that's what the American Revolu- "i hope the killer is the guy who kept trying to make us switch deodorants." tion was about: taxation without repre- sentation. So the government depends

102 JULY HUSTLER

INTERVIEW: PAUL KRASSNER that kind of behavior modification even THE ULTIMATE IN before they learn language. And the PLEASURE MACHINES... (continued from page 702) legacy of the '60s, which is now blossom- eta S' on people keeping so busy dealing with ing in the '70s, is an increase in our their own survival that they'll just let awareness that even if we recognize that "THE truth comes out pass by. masses of people are asleep, the way Former CIA Director Allen W. Dulles they are awakened is not by playing stated at a Warren Commission hearing God with the lives of others. BOD that the American public would never HUSTLER: As an atheist, how do you read all the commission's material. interpret Larry's being ? HUSTLER: Why was the government KRASSNER: There's no conflict, frightened during the '60s? because as an atheist—especially an KRASSNER: The '60s was a sudden atheist who, just for the sake of absur- evolutionary break—young people from dity, has tried to think of the concept of all walks of life began to be in touch God every moment of the day—I've with themselves and to trust their probably had a more intimate relation- friends more than the government. ship with this mystery than many people These people began to realize that life who profess to be believers. I've seen peo- should be for pleasure, rather than for ple insisting that they knew more about spreading pain. As a result, they helped the way the universe works than I did. bring about a change in the nature of But the idea of endless time and endless This little lady does it all... and more sexuality. Cooperating became more space was inconceivable to me. I mean I Much more! It's not just her soft, yielding important than competing. They grew couldn't even figure out why people skin or the impertinent nipples that make didn't fall off Florida. "The Body" the most stimulating com- their own food, didn't eat meat, made panion you'll ever meet. their own clothes, took care of each So I listened to people talk about ICs when you come between her soft other so that they didn't have to buy religion and God, and I realized that thighs that you'll begin to discover what whatever they did, however they total ecstasy her magic gifts can bring to insurance policies; and they shared ap- you For not only does she possess a pliances and automobiles, while build- behaved, was based on their version of vaginal passage lined with hundreds of ing up an extended family. This was God. And I began to see the people in sensitizing "love buttons", she can do things perhaps only a few women In his- good for children, too, because they the world as various manifestations of tory have ever truly mastered. First, a could learn from a lot of adults and a lot God: Cruel people thought of a vengeful variable control lets you adjust her throb- of other kids instead of being limited to God, while compassionate people bing vibrations to your own perfect pitch of pleasure. At the same time, a separate just Mom and Dad, Spot the dog, and thought of art understanding God. Some • power pack lets you control an exclusive, one-and-a-half siblings. people acted as if they were God; every- truly amazing ''stroking" action! Up and HUSTLER: What happened to the body was playing God with everybody down, up and down... faster or slower! ways. Parents itkSe Whatever you want from her you get. and momentum of the '60s? else in all kinds of subtle you get it at your pace of passion and KRASSNER: Some of us who were like played it with their kids, and husbands pleasure. And it that's not enough, -The a new wave back in the '60s are riding and wives played it with one another. Body" also features a special pneumatic device that lets her -squeeze you with the crest now. For a few years I lived by HUSTLER: And Larry Flynt? those exquisite contractions few women the ocean. I used to just sit and watch, KRASSNER: I see that Larry's behavior since Cleopatra have truly performed. and came to realize that if everybody were is rooted in the way in which he believes UNCONDITIONALLY GUARANTEED on the crest, there would be no waves. in God. If I could pinpoint when I It sounds like a lot to offer, we know, but The difference between us and a lot of decided to accept Larry's appointment "The Body" can do it all, and do it all at previous generations is that built into as Publisher of HUSTLER, I would say the same time! But don't take our word for it. Send for your "Body" today. Use our belief system is the notion of change. it occurred when he was saying that her in your own home for 14 days and if Its important to us to understand what Christ was not a better teacher than she isn't everything we say she is simply Buddha and that neither Christ nor send her back for a full refund... no the current waves are instead of trying to questions asked. repress them. Buddha was better than any individual, I think that on several levels the '60s but rather that God was within every Valentine Products Inc. Dem Bons consciousness is being recycled, coming individual. As long as Larry was born P.O. Box 5200, FDR Station again to that kind of freedom, I felt we New York. New York 10022 out as "It's our turn now!" HUSTLER: The awful thing is that so were on the same wavelength. As Gentlemen- many Americans are emotionally in debt opposed to the Christian Yellow Pages, in I have enclosed a check or money order for 349.95 plus S2 00 for postage and handling because they've had feelings beaten out which so-called Christians advertise, in ltotai S51.15). Please ,usn 'Tee Body- in a order to buy from and sell to other plan package lo me .mmediately. I understand of them by our culture. The key factor, that .1 I am not completely deitghted with her. I of course, is that they were taught to Christians exclusively. That smacks of a return her within 14 days for a prompt, lull canrefund. deny their own sexuality. kind of anti-Semitism in disguise. Name KRASSNER: The very first thing an un- HUSTLER: There are many people who healthy culture teaches a kid is for that think in traditional Christian terms, Swart", which are the terms of sexual repression. " 751gorrars 411121°.:J%7' kid to separate flesh and spirit. A child is an experimenter, a curious Martian. A So we should clarify right off that Larry Acklres child is a little Martian who discovers its has not been tripped up on the tradi- lily Stale tional, organized religious theology. nose, ears and toes, but when it dis- BankAmencarraVisal Masser Charge covers what's between its legs, its hands Can you explain for the benefit of our 11111011111•••••111111 are slapped or it gets diverted. Kids may readers who are now seeing the new, Ew Om not have the vocabulary to ask "Why do born-again HUSTLER for the first time, iniartank No MEM Mo __Year_ they always turn the TV on when I start how Larry's experience manifested itself Mxv Vert Remilen13 ale spelicaols sales to — playing with myself?" But they do learn (continued on page 110)

104 JULY HUSTLER INTERVIEW: PAUL KRASSNER again and recapturing the innocence of first, then Penthouse and then HUSTLER, sexuality. so that the flowers would open wider as (continued from page 104) HUSTLER: It seems Larry has brought I went from one magazine to the next. siN to him and how that is reflected in the back a healthy form of religion, a non- HUSTLER: And have you noticed that magazine? repressed form that includes elements of if you squint your eyes in a certain way, KRASSNER: Well, since my own Eastern and Western religions, the photographs become somewhat religion is the First Amendment, which reconstituted in popular terms, Would three-dimensional? includes both freedom of religion and you say that, in essence, he gives us a KRASSNER: Well, I would have freedom of speech and the press, I see healthy religious and spiritual alterna- noticed it, but jerking off has made me Larry as the missing link between those tive to Establishment religion? blind. What I do notice, however, is that components of the First Amendment. KRASSNER: Exactly. As I've said, the every time I jerk off it's a mixed bless- Freedom of the press, like a branch on a first thing that an unhealthy society ing, because I enjoy it and yet I know tree, has its own twigs, which include teaches a child is to separate the flesh something's missing. freedom to print sexual and visual and the spirit. When a child starts out HUSTLER: It's the human contact. The material. This is why he and I agree on the process of learning with a healthy human sharing. "4'4' .kir logic of running stories from the curiosity, it doesn't separate work and KRASSNER: Yeah, right. And that Bible with appropriate photography play. Suddenly, distinctions are made problem is especially acute for prisoners illustrating the stories. The erotic paint- and soon there's missing a certain har- who are denied human contact. ings in this issue are a good example of mony of flesh and spirit. So what Larry HUSTLER: What you're saying is that the connection between being born represents to me is a missing link be- visual material often provides a link to tween freedom of speech, press and reality for people who have been religion. He is able, through HUSTLER, repressed? to try to harmonize those elements of KRASSNER: Fantasy is a link. HUSTLER spirit and flesh that society has tried to HUSTLER: The big question in the - BEAVER HUNT RELEASE teach us to separate. minds of many HUSTLER readers is: HUSTLER: How does this translate How real is Larry's conversion? Beaver Hunters, here Is the model release you must send to us with your entry in HUSTLER'S into HUSTLER? KRASSNER: I fasted for four days be- amateur photo contest isee page 1051 Models KRASSNER: If people are offended, if fore I came to the HUSTLER Christmas should be shown totally nude. Faces must be they were to say that the stories of Lot party in Columbus, where I met Larry visible in photos. Novelty photos will be con- and his daughters or of Jesus and the for the first time. We'd had contact sidered. Mail to: HUSTLER Bea ver Hunt. 2029 Century Park East, Suite 3800, Los Angeles. Adulteress are obscene, then they're say• through phone calls and correspondence 90087. ing that the Bible is obscene. If they're and had watched each other's work. But saying that the Bible is not obscene I didn't really know him, and I wanted Modena Name because it's written with a lot of to be clearheaded, so after four days of adores, "begats," then they're saying that fasting I could watch him very closely. although the Bible doesn't make you If he was faking something, he was horny, a visual pictorial illustration of doing such a good job that he was even

Date at Birth Phone ;include area code/ the Bible would. And that type of logic fooling himself. He said to all of the goes against the whole chronology of employees present, "You are what you Photographer communication. Pictures came before think you are." When it was my turn to Occupation words. talk—after Larry and Dick Gregory had HUSTLER: In other words, pictures spoken—I requoted Larry's line and Hobbies render concepts more immediate? followed with "You are what you pre- KRASSNER: Agreed. But there are peo- tend to be." He laughed along with ple who can read the Bible, or look at everybody else. As long as there was that Studs, Fantasia; of biblical stories, kind of trust, I felt comfortable. and view and appreciate them as Later I told Larry I had fasted for literature or art and not be turned on those four days before I met him, and he sexually. said, "Why did you fast?" I replied, "I HUSTLER: Wouldn't the perfect per- didn't want to have any ulterior motives, son, the ideal person, respond to them such as hunger. I also wanted to see if Include separate Sheet II necessary on both levels and not experience the you're a con artist, and you are and dichotomy? you're good." And he smiled and said, Send prize to ,_' Model _1 Other KRASSNER: When I meet the ideal "I'm the best." And that was a moment person, I'll let you know. of intimacy because we each trusted one HUSTLER: In one's mind then? another enough that we were willing to KRASSNER: No. It's fascism to decide I hereby give HUSTLER Magazine. its suc- risk being misunderstood. Ultimately, cessors and assigns. and those acting under what somebody else should be turned on no one except Larry knows the reality of its permission or upon its authority, per- by. his born-again experience. mission to copyright and/or publish any HUSTLER: Then are you turned on by HUSTLER: Would you consider photographs of myself with or without my your- name and to make changes in or additions to the photography in HUSTLER? self born again? such photographs or portraits, in such manner KRASSNER: Sure, although less now KRASSNER: In my case I'm imprinted as shall seem proper to their use. I also under- that I am surrounded by it. on just existence itself— the absurd mys- stand that editorial matter will accompany these photos. I certify that I am of lull age and HUSTLER: Have you ever jerked off to tery of my existence and not anyone am possessed of full legal capacity to execute copies of HUSTLER or Playboy or else's. Not on Scientology's game plan, the foregoing authorization. Penthouse? not on Werner Erhard's est game plan. KRASSNER: All of them. Sometimes I Everybody tries to get you into their Modena Legal Sipoalure would pile them up, stacking Playboy game without even recognizing it some-

110 JULY HUSTLER times. If you had been able to keep the magic, wouldn't you say? innocence of a newborn baby, you could KRASSNER: Religion is socially see people asserting their will on each acceptable magic. By magic I mean just other all the time, rather than just tak- the mystery of my ending up at ing care of their own shit. HUSTLER's Christmas party; but there Actually, I woke up at the age of six was also a logic to it. And just as I would on the stage of Carnegie Hall. I didn't like to unite flesh and spirit, I would like know how I got there, but I knew it was to harmonize logic and magic into the weird. It was as if I were separate and same process. could see this as an objective picture, HUSTLER: Part of Larry's born-again watching myself and being a member of experience is to, effective with this issue, the audience at the same time. And I drop all single-girl sets, girl photos, girl realized that everybody in the audience, fantasies. He's apologized to the women No one wakes up however they perceived me, did so of America for depicting them as sex through their own experience: their objects, and so one of the things the thinking, "Today fears, their hang-ups, their preconcep- new HUSTLER will do .is not depict tions. However much I had been asleep women as sex objects; rather, it will deal rin going to those preceding six years while I be- with sex as a more complete package came this child violinist prodigy—I had featuring men and women together, try- abuse my child:' probably been given the violin to keep ing to represent a wholesome sexuality. me from playing with myself—it was But was HUSTLER wrong for having Abuse is not some- such a sudden flash of awareness that I had. women pose in a provocative way thing we think about, it's knew I wanted to go there again. So I intended presumably to stimulate men? something we do. just paid close attention and watched Was there anything evil or sinful about Last year in Amer- and saw what would bring on that kind that? Did it foster or continue a problem of feeling again. ica, an estimated one in society? HUSTLER: You were awake and really KRASSNER: Well, I once wrote a story million children suffered tuned in. called "Tongue Fu," in which a from abuse and neglect, KRASSNER: Exactly. Knowing what character has a 15-inch tongue. He is and at least 2,000 of them was happening and enjoying it. very popular with the women. His died needless, painful HUSTLER: A large part of awareness is father, Luke Warm Sake, tells him that deaths. being able to rise above your own pre- exploitation and liberation are two sides The fact is, child conceptions, fears and hang-ups. When of the same coin. To answer your ques- you open up to the spiritual side, or get tion, I don't think it's either/or. I think abuse is a major epi- tuned in, you can step away and observe that the girlie pictures are elements of demic in this country. yourself. Is that correct? both exploitation and liberation. The solution? Part KRASSNER: Yes, you can look at your- HUSTLER: Do you feel comfortable of it lies in your hands. self as if you were a Martian and an with the exclusion of such material? With enough volunteers, Earthling simultaneously. You can be a KRASSNER: Well, when I accepted local child abuse preven- Martian like a newborn child and watch Larry's sudden announcement of my tion programs could be the actions of this Earthling whose body appointment at the Christmas party, I you, as a Martian, have inhabited. Sud- said I was more offended by cigarette formed to aid parents denly, you see the ridiculous things that ads than by pink cunts, that one gives and children in their own you say and the asshole things you do, death and the other life, and although I communities. With your and how you can decide whether you didn't even know about the real help, eighty percent of want to forgive yourself for them or specifics of the changes in HUSTLER at all abusers could be blame yourself for them. I mean, you that point, I knew I should have the helped. Please. Write for can see how the Earthling tries to take right to publish that stuff even though more information on over the Martian. people found it offensive. HUSTLER: Being tuned into this mys- HUSTLER: For the benefit of our child abuse and what you tery of existence is the same as being in readers who are getting from this issue a can do. tune to the spirit or God-force, isn't it? hint of where we are, what is the future What will you do to- KRASSNER: I never told you this, but direction of HUSTLER? What are you day that's more impor- on the flight to Columbus I kept making doing, and what sorts of things will tant? a list of editorial ideas for HUSTLER, HUSTLER embody? and I asked myself, "What am I doing KRASSNER: Well, I like to surprise A Public SONIC!! al This Magazine this for? I'm only going to a Christmas myself and then share the surprise with & The AeverlIsing Council e rn party!" But it was a form of clair- a lot of people. So it's hard to say, voyance, I guess. because to a certain degree we reflect HUSTLER: You apparently believe in the culture, and to a certain degree we clairvoyance, ESP, parapsychological help shape it. III were truly clairvoyant, phenomena. Is that correct? I could tell you. But the general direc- We need KRASSNER: Coincidence was always tion now—whether you accept the stan- my religion; and then for a while con- dards of Christianity or of humanism— your help. Write: spiracy became my religion, and lately is intended to show that there are National Committee for Pre- I've tried magic on for size. Everybody different elements of trying to live a efin vention of Child Abuse. Box has different visions of magic. moral life. The fact that Larry has not 2866, Chicago, Illinois 60690 HUSTLER: Religion is another form of said his way is the way, to me is the most

114 JULY HUSTLER Christian way to act. So, therefore, I world, and there was a time when 1 was viewer asked what we were going to do don't see any conflict between my embarrassed by it. I didn't jerk off to in Chicago, and I said, "You think I'm humanism and his born-again Chris- some of the gratuitous violence or shit gonna tell you?" and smiled. "But ['11 tianity. The standards are the same: cartoons. And there was a time I would tell you one thing. We're going to slip compassion, justice, freedom . . . have been too embarrassed to be associ- truth serum into the reporters' drinks." HUSTLER: And that will be reflected ated with it, but now I'm proud. For the Then I watched myself on the news. I in HUSTLER? first month I was here I was defensive to said, "You think I'm gonna tell you?" KRASSNER: Yeah. So there can be an people about HUSTLER, and suddenly I and smiled. They had cut out the rest. investigative report on some aspect of saw the level of snobbery in people Their selection of what I had to say society, some organization or individual, toward it. These were people who were made me look more sinister than I was. let's say, pretending to be one thing and liberals and radicals, but they didn't HUSTLER: How do you go through really being another. The right to pub- want to have anything to do with the each day ? lish a piece of investigative journalism is people they wanted to liberate. Well, the KRASSNER: Chronologically. Right not separate from the right to publish, as pass-on readership of HUSTLER is 10 before I got invited to the Christmas we do in this issue, a piece about the fear million, and I wouldn't care if every party in Columbus and got appointed to off.Kting, which is part of our humanity. single one of them were a masturbating, this position I was interviewed, and at 1 remember when I first began hang- raping, wife-beating corporate execu- one point the interviewer asked me, ing around with Lenny Bruce. He would tive who drives a truck in his spare time "What does success mean to you?" I just fart openly and, as a defense, I'd so he can run over little girls with his replied, "Trying to do the appropriate make some joke about it. At one point heavy tire treads; it doesn't mean thing every moment." And that is the he finally called me on it and pointed they're not worth communicating with. real game in being born again: to be out how I responded defensively to his HUSTLER: Don't you believe that if born again every moment. freedom or to his lack of fear of farting. President Carter, Richard Nixon, HUSTLER: One final question, Paul. HUSTLER: So what we're really talking Walter Cronkite —people in general— As it stands now, HUSTLER, about is a magazine that's encouraging were capable of talking about farting in reconstituted, is more than it was before, openness on all levels, where we can public, they could communicate on a not less, and what it always has been and confront our inhibitions and taboos and much more honest, meaningful level? what it is even more now is a political at the same time advance ourselves, use KRASSNER: Not just by talking about force in this country—yes or no? communication and print to advance it. My fantasy is for Walter Cronkite to KRASSNER: Sure. That's the mind-set ourselves and complete ourselves as do it—to actually fart on the air, and say, that lay behind those bullets in individuals? "That's the way it is,” It would human- Lawrenceville, Georgia. If, as I said KRASSNER: And you can extend that ize him. I remember when we had our before, sexuality is political, then Larry to include nation. There was a time when first Yip-in and people from CBS News through that gunsight was the living HUSTLER was the fart of the media came to interview a few of us, The inter- symbol of that political force. fp' The Best of Both. Larry Flynt does it again—and again. Collections of the year's best from HUSTLER and CHIC magazines are now available. HUSTLER proves it's the most controversial men's magazine with two articles that shocked the world—THE REAL OBSCENITY: WAR and AMERICA'S BIGGEST PUSHERS: THE CIGARETTE COMPANIES. Under LEASURE TIME PRODUCTS P.O.Box 18508 • Columbus. Ohio 43218 the same cover you'll

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