Vol. 178 Wednesday, No. 17 24 November 2004

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 24 November 2004.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1265 Order of Business …………………………………1266 Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Act 1996: Referral to Joint Committee ……………1280 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: Second Stage …………………1281 Book of Estimates 2005: Statements …………………………1303 Road Network: Motion ………………………………1345 Adjournment Matters: Mine Sites …………………………………1379 Ambulance Service ………………………………1383 Rural Transport Services ……………………………1385 1265 1266

SEANAD E´ IREANN line the Government policy on wireless tech- nology and in particular the steps the ———— Government is taking to ensure the public is kept informed and aware of any issues relat- De´ Ce´adaoin, 24 Samhain 2004. ing thereto. Wednesday, 24 November 2004. I have also received notice from Senator McHugh of the following matter. ———— The need for the Minister for Communi- Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar cations, Marine and Natural Resources to 10.30 a.m. expedite the training module which would enable the Mulroy coast and cliff rescue boat ———— to be commissioned. I have also received notice from Senator Scanlon Paidir. of the following matter. Prayer. The need for the Minister for Transport to ———— give an up-to-date position regarding a section of the N4 from Castlebaldwin to Colooney, County Sligo; and when it is expected that Business of Seanad. work will commence. An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator O’Meara that, on the motion for the I have also received notice from Senator Coghlan Adjournment of the House today, she proposes of the following matter. to raise the following matter: The need for the Minister for Transport as a matter of urgency to introduce, in view of the The need for the Minister for Communi- danger involved, a 30 mph speed limit on the cations, Marine and Natural Resources to roadway at Muckross from Abbey Cross to initiate action against Mogul Ireland for the Torc waterfall, Killarney, County Kerry. failure to rehabilitate former mine sites and the tailings pond at Silvermines, County Tipperary, I regard the matters raised by Senators Bannon, under clause K of the mining lease, in light of Kitt, O’Meara, Browne, Feighan and McHugh as the fact that the Statute of Limitations is about suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I to run out on clause K. have selected the matters raised by Senators O’Meara, Kitt and Feighan and they will be taken I have also received notice from Senator Kitt of at the conclusion of business. I regret that I have the following matter. had to rule out of order the matters raised by The need for the Minister for Health and Senators Scanlon and Coghlan as the Minister has Children to approve funding for an ambulance no official responsibility in the matters. base and primary care centre for Tuam, County Galway. Order of Business. I have also received notice from Senator Feighan Ms O’Rourke: The Order of Business is No. 1, of the following matter. motion re the Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) The need for the Minister for Community, Act 1996 to be referred to the Joint Committee Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to outline the on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s budget for the coming year on the rural trans- Rights for consideration — this concerns powers port initiative schemes and whether an increase of detention and re-arrest and will be taken with- is planned for 2005. out debate; No. 2, Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999 [Da´il] — Second Stage I have also received notice from Senator Bannon to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of of the following matter. Business until 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of The need for the Minister for Community, spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs to clarify the posi- those of all other Senators not to exceed ten tion with regard to the feasibility study funding minutes — the Minister to be called on to reply for Ballymacormack community centre, Stone- not later than ten minutes before the conclusion park parish, County Longford, which would be of Second Stage; No. 3, statements on the Book the sole provider of recreational facilities for of Estimates 2005 — to be taken from 2.30 p.m. the youth of the area under the Leader pro- until 5 p.m., with the contributions of spokes- gramme, whose remit is to enhance such pro- persons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of all vision to rural communities. other Senators not to exceed ten minutes — the Minister to be called on to reply not later than I have also received notice from Senator Browne ten minutes before the conclusion of the state- of the following matter. ments; and No. 22, motion No. 16, to be taken The need for the Minister for Communi- from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. There will be a sos between cations, Marine and Natural Resources to out- 1.30 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. 1267 Order of 24 November 2004. Business 1268

Mr. B. Hayes: Yesterday we had the spectacle there will be less than impressed that State and of a 77 year old great-grandmother from Garda time, and prison space, are being tied up Limerick city about to be jailed for the non-pay- on such issues. It is completely wrong. ment of a small fine. I have discovered that last Speaking for the small people, there is also year in excess of 1,000 people were put in prison very likely a miscarriage of justice in this situa- for as much as two weeks for the non-payment tion. This great-grandmother was only feeding a of a fine. I give notice that my party intends to stray dog which she had never owned. Nonethe- introduce a Private Members’ Bill on this issue. less, she was threatened with incarceration in Unfortunately, the legislation in question, the prison and her family must come up with the Enforcement of Court Orders Bill 2004, was money to prevent this outcome. To do that to a voted down in the other House only two months great-grandmother, suffering from asthma and ago. some other illnesses, reflects extraordinarily The Fine Gael Party wants the Government to badly on our system of justice. I could not agree re-examine this issue. It is a scandal that people more with Senator Brian Hayes on the need to should be sent to prison and take up prison space deal with this issue. It brings the whole system at a cost of \4 million or \5 million per annum into disrepute. The Minister for Justice, Equality when white collar criminals get away with crime and Law Reform last night spoke about building unnoticed on a daily basis. We must address this more prisons and the need for more prison space. scandal and the only ways of doing so are through This raises the question as to why such a high attachment of earnings or the payment of fines proportion of the population is incarcerated com- by instalments. New legislation is needed in this pared to other countries. The kind of nonsense area and the Fine Gael Party will introduce a Bill we saw threatened in Limerick this week is the on the matter early next week. I ask that the answer. Government allocate time for its consideration at an early date to ensure the matter is addressed. Mr. Ryan: Iman al-Hams, a young Palestinian In 1981, the Law Reform Commission produced was murdered by the Israeli defence forces in proposals in this area, yet nearly 25 years later we October. The Israeli authorities exonerated the still await Government action. I ask the Govern- army officer whom his own troops saw shoot the ment side to give time to the Bill when I bring it child. There is a transcript of the radio conver- before the House next week. sations taking place when that happened which I presume the House will receive a glut of legis- demonstrates quite clearly that this was deliber- lation between now and the Christmas recess. To ate, cold-blooded murder. If a Palestinian had be fair to the staff of the Houses and Opposition done it we would quite rightly condemn it and and Government spokespersons, and to ensure the world would rightly demand sanctions against the legislation is dealt with in an orderly fashion the Palestinian authorities because of their failure and sufficient time is available to debate the to control terrorists. matters in hand, will the Leader indicate what Bills will be taken before the Christmas recess? Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. We need adequate time to table amendments. Mr. Ryan: The world, however, stands back in Mr. O’Toole: I note the House will sit on Fri- silence when a terrified child running away from day. While I do not object to Friday sittings, I one of the most powerful defence forces in the object when their sole purpose is to facilitate the world is murdered in cold blood because the per- Da´il rushing through legislation on Wednesday petrator is a country with which we have, at best, and Thursday before dumping it in the House on an ambiguous relationship. Friday. The Leader will share my view on the I again appeal to our Department of Foreign matter. I would be much happier if we started our Affairs to raise the issue of Iman al-Hams with meeting on a Tuesday to the effect that we cannot the Israeli Embassy. It is a crime worthy of the be used as a dumping ground for matters not summoning of an ambassador to the Department. dealt with in the Da´il. I do not object to the Murdering children is not part of the war on ter- Order of Business as it is in place this week but rorism, it is a disgraceful abuse of power and it is a precedent along with which we should not needs the voice of civilised people to deal with it. go. It is the Da´il’s problem if it does not deal with its business in time. We should question every Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. occasion on which matters are rushed through this House. Mr. Ryan: I move an amendment to the Order The issue raised by Senator Brian Hayes is of Business, namely, that the first item we should crucially important. It is a joke that we are pre- discuss is the Government’s reneging on its pared to waste time sending people around to pledge to meet the UN target on overseas investigate dog licences and report to the Garda, development aid by 2007. The Estimates may which then wastes further time preparing a case provide a blanket to cover this issue. This is not and taking people to court, threatening them and just a question of abandoning the poor of the deciding to send them to prison because they do world but how the world sees a Government not have a dog licence. There are enough prob- which feels free to make solemn pledges at a var- lems in Limerick city already and the residents iety of international fora, to win votes to get itself 1269 Order of 24 November 2004. Business 1270 onto the UN Security Council and abandons that Rather than the Minister talking about increas- pledge without so much as blinking when it ing the number of prison places, he should look becomes inconvenient. seriously at a situation where up to 1,000 people I am concerned that I cannot now trust my a year are in prison because of non-payment of Government. How can the DUP trust a fines. It has been advocated over the years by var- Taoiseach who goes to the UN and solemnly ious reports that fines should be paid in instal- makes a promise to do something and then comes ments in order to ensure they are paid. In many home and abandons it because it is a bit difficult? cases, the fines imposed by the courts are quite How can Ian Paisley trust the Government when steep in terms of the offence committed. I am the going gets rough with the sort of people who amazed that this has not been looked at. are carrying out surveillance on Ministers? As the Government has undermined our capacity to Mr. Mooney: I have great respect, bordering on trust it, I call for a debate on the reneging of the a political affection, for Senator Ryan and I know foreign aid target of 0.7% of GNP. his long record of championing the poor. However, he has cast an unacceptable slur on the Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : We had another shocking Taoiseach, who is trying to forge a peaceful resol- example of the dark side of Ireland in today’s ution to what is happening in Northern Ireland. newspapers. I refer to the battered and bruised Linking this issue with overseas development aid face of William Bartley, who was attacked in his in order to suggest that the Taoiseach cannot be home in Donegal, robbed and brutalised. Here trusted is going beyond the bounds of fair was a 74 year old bachelor, almost totally deaf, comment. who would have expected to live out his twilight years in peace. I do not think this is about polic- Mr. Ryan: Can the Senator trust him? ing; we are dealing with a malignancy in society of which we have seen so many examples. The Mr. Mooney: The Senator should withdraw the only antidote we have to this type of thuggery remark. The Taoiseach does not need a lecture comes from the community itself. Ultimately, the from the Labour Party. people in the community are the only ones who (Interruptions). can find out who is causing this. How do we ensure this will not happen again? An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. Can we set aside time to discuss the broader issues of society? Each time we come to this Mr. Mooney: I do not believe Senator Ryan House, we look at some recent act that has speaks for the majority of Labour Party sup- shocked us in some way. There are deeper issues porters when he makes such an outrageous slur involved. Why is it that we no longer have respect on the Taoiseach. for human life? Why is it that older people must lock themselves up at night, afraid that they too Mr. Ryan: If I said what Labour Party sup- will be attacked? We should set some time aside porters think, I would have to withdraw it. to have a broader debate on that issue. Mr. Mooney: The Labour Party is wrestling Mr. Finucane: I second Senator Ryan’s amend- with its conscience in respect of who it will go into ment to the Order of Business. I also want to Government with after the next general election. briefly refer to the Limerick experience which has been spoken about. We have worse problems in An Cathaoirleach: I do not think that is—— Limerick than having to put a great-grandmother into prison over a dog fine. The contrast in the Mr. Mooney: I do not think the Taoiseach system can be seen with the deployment of needs a lecture. resources. We read in the newspapers today that six gardaı´ took a lamb from the back of a house An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the and put it in another location. However, we also Order of Business. saw the harrowing pictures of the man from Donegal and his experience of thugs who broke Mr. Mooney: I appreciate that. into his house. In that context, it may not have everything to do with policing and something to An Cathaoirleach: Who the Labour Party goes into Government with—— do with the community. Something is happening in Irish society when people resort to these hor- Mr. Mooney: A political comment was made. rendous crimes accompanying burglaries. There is a concern in rural Ireland regarding (Interruptions). policing that is not just confined to County Donegal. We have to look at the deployment of Mr. Norris: Withdraw. resources. Are they deployed effectively? In the type of shift systems which operate in most urban An Cathaoirleach: Does Senator Mooney have communities, are gardaı´ deployed effectively at a question for the Leader? the times when crimes are more likely to occur? This has implications for rural policing. Mr. Mooney: I have a question. 1271 Order of 24 November 2004. Business 1272

Mr. Norris: Withdraw. for MEPs to come here. A former President of the European Parliament has addressed the (Interruptions). Seanad. The situation in Europe is so serious that we should ask such people to come to the House An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. to explain what is going on. I supported the removal of Mr. Buttiglione, but I also spoke Mr. Mooney: References have been made to against the candidacy of a woman who had a Ukraine — people are being shouted down there serious conflict of interest and a person who was as well. That is one of the reasons I wanted to being put in charge of tax matters but had no fis- speak. cal understanding whatever. We have now learned that Mr. Barrot, who was (Interruptions). originally proposed as the justice Commissioner, had a conviction for embezzlement. People in An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. Ireland are entitled to know what is going on in Europe. Why are totally unsuitable people being Mr. Mooney: Sensitive discussions are ongoing proposed as Commissioners? Why can decent about what we hope will be a peaceful and candidates not be found? orderly transfer of power from direct rule to an I would also like to ask for a debate on Iraq. I elected Assembly, which represents all the people would like a specific and clear answer on the of Northern Ireland. At such a time, the House matter from the Leader today or tomorrow. I should acknowledge the courageous and brave understand that she has certain difficulties. stand being taken by the people of Ukraine. In However, I will be placed in a difficult position if recent days, we have seen their protests against I do not receive an answer today or tomorrow — corruption and electoral fraud that has been I will have to continue to demand an answer. I documented and statistically proven by those who refer specifically to the Gulfstream jet that has have observed the electoral process in that coun- been landing at Shannon Airport. It has been try. This issue is so important that the Minister widely stated that the jet has been adapted to for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, facilitate the transport of kidnapped persons to should ask the Ukrainian ambassador, who I destinations where they may be subject to torture believe resides in London, to account for the elec- at the behest of the CIA. As Shannon Airport is toral fraud that has been perpetrated in Ukraine. being used, we are entitled to know how many As a member of the Council of Europe, I have times the aeroplane has landed there. Has it watched in recent years as many former Soviet landed 14 times, or 16 times? Has the Garda used states have reverted to totalitarianism and auth- its powers to investigate the matter by boarding oritarianism. Fraud, corruption and abuse of an aeroplane to search it? power are rampant in such countries. Ukraine is In light of the behaviour of the allied forces in seeking to become a member of the European Iraq, it is vital that we should get this information. Union. I oppose any engagement with the EU, at They appear to be driving tanks over wounded any level, on the part of Ukraine’s administration, people in the streets of Falluja. There is no doubt as it seems to be a puppet Government. that they are murdering unarmed people in mos- ques. Can one imagine what would happen if Mr. Ryan: Is this a speech? someone attacked a church and shot unarmed Mr. Mooney: I know the EU has called in its elderly people dead? The press is being muzzled, ambassador. I emphasise that the matter is since it has only embedded people there. They important enough—— have assassinated reporters from various coun- tries and bombed the offices of Al-Jazeera tele- An Cathaoirleach: I think the Senator has vision. We are being denied information and war addressed the matter adequately. crimes are being committed in which this country is complicit. That is why the Taoiseach is refusing ´ Mr. Mooney: ——that the Leader should ask to answer these questions in Da´il Eireann, and it the Minister for Foreign Affairs to call the is imperative that this House get the answer that Ukrainian ambassador to account for what is I have sought for at least six weeks with the sup- plainly a fraudulent situation. port of my colleague, Senator Henry. I have not received a single answer. The Leader has simply Mr. Norris: Can I correct Senator Finucane? stated on every occasion that she notes my ques- The Garda issued a statement saying that four tion. There is not much point in noting a question gardaı´, including one bean garda, were involved unless one gets an answer. in the sheep incident. The statement confirmed that the sheep was not arrested, but taken into Mr. Dooley: I support Senators O’Toole and protective custody. Brian Hayes regarding the plight of the Limerick great-grandmother. It is a poor use of Garda and (Interruptions). prison resources to deal with a woman in her state in that fashion. However, that does not Mr. Norris: Can I raise an issue relating to the detract from the fact the control of dogs is an European Commission? The House can arrange issue. Perhaps the Leader might organise a rela- 1273 Order of 24 November 2004. Business 1274 tively short debate in this House, particularly in Dr. Mansergh: It is a question of the time the run-up to Christmas. Much of the problem period within which it is achieved. arises from pets being given to children at Christmas, a wholly inappropriate practice that Mr. Norris: It is a question of truth and lies. should obviously be addressed soon. I was appalled to hear a County Clare dog warden talk An Cathaoirleach: We are not having a debate. the other day of several houses in the county with Dr. Henry: It was disclosed in the press last over 50 dogs. When one considers the damage to week that not all genetic tests carried out in a livestock and young children, one sees that the private institution in Galway were accurate. control of dogs is a real issue. We have seen Although it is attached to the univer- appalling attacks by marauding dogs on young 11 o’clock sity, this is a private institution. It has children and livestock. While we should not con- carried out work for ten years fuse the two matters, it is important that a strong because the national genetics institution in statement be made on dog control. Dublin is flooded with work and is inadequately resourced and staffed. However, the institution in Mr. Bannon: I ask the Leader to invite the Galway does not employ people with clinical acu- Minister for Health and Children, Deputy men and, therefore, it is like not having people to Harney, into the House to debate the question accurately interpret X-rays for patients. This is a of elected representatives having a voice in the serious situation and I fail to understand why administration of local health services. We heard greater note is not taken of the lack of facilities her speak last night on setting up the new health for people with genetic diseases. A young man services structure, but there was no reference to suffering from cystic fibrosis, who was awaiting a local input. She also said that a 12-strong team lung transplant, died in the Mater Hospital yes- would be setting up the health services. It is terday. While this is tragic, it is more tragic that, important that we know the identity of those despite the Department of Health and Children people and whether it will be done regionally. It establishing a cystic fibrosis group several years is also important that local democracy be ago, which recommended that all newborn chil- respected in the administration of health services. dren be tested for the disease, nothing has hap- The present structure does not allow for adequate pened, even though the earlier children receive democratic input into the administration of the treatment, the better the outcome. health service, and it is important that we have I have read the programme of priorities pub- that debate. From the foundation of the State, lished by the Ta´naiste and Minister for Health there has always been local input into the delivery and Children. Will the Leader ask her to come to of health services. That is what people want, and the House to debate genetic diseases? Sometimes it should be afforded to them. It would be for the people think this issue is related to abortion or in betterment of health services. vitro fertilisation and prenatal diagnosis but that is not the case. It relates to families in which one Dr. Mansergh: No one over the age of 70, save member has a genetic disease being in a position in the most exceptional circumstances, should be to find out the likelihood of another child being sent to prison. I agree that we should have the affected if the parents decide to have more chil- debate proposed by Senator O´ Murchu´ . What dren. People deserve better than they are getting. influences the mentality of those who would go and beat up old people in the manner shown? Mr. Kitt: Newspapers are reporting that the I welcome, in so far as they go, the concrete Government is seeking official status for the Irish increases of \50 million or \60 million in the language in the European Union today. I very overseas development aid budget. If Senator much welcome this because the Seanad has called Ryan went over previous programmes for for Irish to be recognised as an official working Government and manifestos back to 1981, he language of the EU. I thank our MEPs for the would find that many Governments had pledged support they have given us and I hope the appli- ´ ´ during their time in office to achieve the target of cation will be successful. Tugaim lan-tacaıocht don Rialtas as ucht an iarratais seo. 0.7%. All Governments, including Senator Ryan’s colleague, Deputy Burton, have found it Mr. Feighan: I support colleagues in condemn- difficult to achieve as great an advance as they ing the misuse of Garda resources following the would have liked. It is good that there is a three- arrest of a 77 year old widow. There was a great year rolling programme and that we will get, let deal of violence on our streets over the weekend us hope, close to 0.5%. The pledge has not been and I have frequently raised this issue in the reneged on, any more than it has been reneged House. A Lithuanian man was stabbed to death on or abandoned by 24 other OECD countries. while another was stabbed in Tallaght and a 74 year old man was attacked in Donegal. A number Mr. Norris: Of course it has. The Taoiseach of Members have wondered whether we are made it in the United Nations. He was repri- changing as people. This is not the Ireland of the manded by Kofi Annan. welcomes with non-nationals increasingly falling victim to violence, an issue I have also raised. An Cathaoirleach: Order. Yesterday, the Taoiseach referred to gangsters 1275 Order of 24 November 2004. Business 1276

[Mr. Feighan.] we have debated it almost immediately after it and thugs in the context of the young man shot has been produced in the Da´il. dead in Dublin over the weekend; he said they were involved in activities to make money to buy Mr. McHugh: Senator Quinn raised the issue properties in Spain. Drugs are fuelling much of of tourism. In the first week of February this year this crime and the task force in this area in not it was impossible to get a car parking space at the doing enough to address the problem. Will the Giant’s Causeway in County Antrim because of Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of British, European and American come to the House to outline what is being done tourists. However, in Donegal, just 45 minutes to get drugs off our streets? away from the Giant’s Causeway via the Magilli- gan ferry, there were only empty car parks Mr. Brennan: Will the Leader convey the con- throughout the month of July in tourist areas. We gratulations and good wishes of the House to the need serious debate on an all-Ireland strategy for new members appointed to the Council of State, tourism. We have Fa´ilte Ireland and in the north including Senator Mansergh? west we have North West Tourism, Donegal Tourism and Donegal Tourism Limited. We must Mr. Quinn: For the first time in many years, have serious debate on the issue of tourism. Why fewer tourists have travelled to the Republic of are the car parks full in February at the Giant’s Ireland from Great Britain, while the number Causeway, but empty in July in Donegal? travelling to Northern Ireland has increased. Approximately 140,000 jobs are at stake in the Ms O’Rourke: Senator Brian Hayes raised the tourism industry. Have we taken our eye off the matter of the 77 year old woman in Limerick. In ball? Almost 20 years ago in 1985, I attempted to that context the wider question concerns the bring a large group to Ireland, but was told it unsuitable use of Garda time, resources and could not come because we did not have a prison spaces. The Senator intends to introduce a national conference centre. I was delighted to Private Members’ Bill shortly and we will facili- hear the Minister say yesterday that it is hoped tate debate on that issue. to have one by 2008. The conference industry is Senator Brian Hayes stated that a glut of legis- an enormously valuable business for Ireland. Will lation is expected and asked that we have an the Minister come to the House to tell us what orderly use of time, which we will. Senator he is doing about it? Clearly, we are not adhering O’Toole also raised this matter. On the wider to the policies and do not have the strength and issue evoked by that request, since the occasion commitment we should have. approximately 18 months ago when we had a long contentious Bill in the House, we have sought not Mr. Browne: The issue of fireworks has been to have all Stages of a Bill taken together. We do raised on numerous occasions. Will the Leader not approve of that and do not deal with legis- inquire —— lation that way. There is now time between Second and Committee Stages. It is proper that Mr. Dardis: Fireworks or fire? we provide time to debate legislation. I do not call the expected legislation a glut — that sounds An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. Senators excessive coming up to Christmas — but there should be as brief as possible. Senator Browne, will be plenty of legislation. We will use our time without interruption. in an orderly way to debate legislation. I extend the same assurance to Senator O’Toole. There will be no rushing of Bills. He Mr. Browne: We are approaching the said he did not object to sitting on Friday in prin- Christmas season. Given that New Year’s Day ciple but he would object if the purpose was sim- can, unfortunately, be an anti-climax in many ply to be seen to mop up Da´il business. However, respects, it would be appropriate to provide some that is the way it is, we get Bills from the Da´il. special funding for voluntary groups or town Some legislation is initiated in this House and we councils to organise fireworks displays in their will discuss such a Bill this week. towns for young families. We normally see images from Sydney of New Year’s Eve fireworks while Mr. O’Toole: There is no point getting it the New Year’s Day is invariably a damp squib here. morning after it finishes in the Da´il. We should celebrate the beginning of a new year in that way. If a small sum of money were allo- Ms O’Rourke: It will finish on Thursday. cated to the various groups they could organise displays and make New Year’s Day a more enjoy- Mr. O’Toole: That is ridiculous. able family day. Ms O’Rourke: If the Da´il is tardy there is Mr. Ross: Last week the Acting Leader of the nothing we can do about it but we will do our House, Senator Minihan, promised that we could business in a business-like way, not in a rushed and would debate the issue of Aer Lingus. Will way. the Leader endorse this and commit to a date for We have been informed that the Council of this debate? Does the Leader have any proposals Europe Development Bank Bill must be enacted for debate on the budget next week? In the past by 30 November or else the terms of the Bill will 1277 Order of 24 November 2004. Business 1278 have to be renegotiated. If the other House is Ms O’Rourke: I tried but did not get satisfac- tardy we cannot do anything about it but, as I tory answers. I will try again today to get an have proved on several occasions, I will not stand answer on the Gulfstream jet and Shannon. It is over the rushing of any Bill in this House. Senator Norris’s belief that people who were kid- Senator O’Toole also echoed what Senator napped have been transported in the manner he Brian Hayes said, with which we would all agree, outlined. He wants to have the matter clarified or about the waste of State time on petty issues. warns of trouble to come. When some issue that is glaringly unjust arises, Senator Dooley echoed the comments about we would have a rush of comment here on the the poor use of Garda time. He also raised the matter but the case in Limerick was absurd. It issue of the way pets are treated when they are was clear that it was not the woman’s dog anyway given to children as presents; they are often dis- so what was it all about? Her family paid the fine, owned and thrown around the place when chil- not wanting to see her go to prison. dren tire of them after three days. Senator Ban- Senator Ryan referred to the young Palestinian non requested that local voices and input be child, Iman al-Hams, who was murdered by the provided for in the health system. I am sure the Israelis about which there is a justifiable wave of Senator will give great voice to his thoughts when the Health Bill 2004 comes before the House condemnation. He moved an amendment to the shortly. Order of Business which was seconded by Senator Mansergh stated that no one over 70 Senator Finucane. I intended replying to this years of age should be sent to prison. He wel- matter but my colleague Senator Mooney very comed the increases in the overseas development ably dealt with it. Senator Ryan is fully entitled aid budget of \50 million to \60 million. These to his comments about ODA but I regret the link- are generous sums of money and I will not enter ing of it with the talks currently going on in Lon- into the debate on personal grounds. Nonethe- don. I hope we would all wish the team in Lon- less, people have every right to voice their dis- don well. I felt a shock when Senator Ryan agreement on the general issue. Senator Henry referred to Dr. Paisley and so on. The talks are referred to an institution in Galway and the frag- ongoing and we wish them well. ile X syndrome, which I found very mysterious and could not understand. The Senator requested Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. a debate on genetic diseases and how we are addressing the issue in Ireland. Ms O’Rourke: There appears to be a chance of Senator Kitt referred to the issue of official success and I regret that these two matters were status for the Irish language in the EU. In that linked by Senator Ryan. context, this House agreed a motion to support Senator O´ Murchu´ referred to the Donegal that recognition and it looks as though it will hap- man, William Bartley, who was battered and pen. Senator Feighan requested a debate on bruised. He referred to a malignancy in society, drugs and violence. I thank Senator Brennan who which I agree is the case. That incident is every congratulated Senator Mansergh on his nomi- bit as ugly as what is happening in Iraq. We nation to the Council of State, on which I served rightly condemned the killing of the dying soldier once during former President Mary Robinson’s but what happened Mr. Bartley was equally ugly. tenure. Senator O´ Murchu´ called for a broader debate on the issues in society which are leading to that kind Mr. Ryan: The Senator is obviously more of action. popular with the Labour Party than with Fianna Senator Finucane seconded Senator Ryan’s Fa´il. amendment regarding ODA. Senator Mooney Ms O’Rourke: One would not be appointed responded to the slur on the Taoiseach at a sensi- twice to a job like that. Senator Mansergh will tive time. He also wants the Minister for Foreign do us all proud. Senator Quinn referred to the Affairs to request the Ukrainian ambassador who reduction in the numbers of tourists visiting is based in London to come here to explain what Ireland. He welcomed the fact that a national is happening. The people who oversee elections conference centre is now mooted for 2008 and said there were faults in the system. Two people requested that the Minister for Arts, Sport and have claimed to be elected but we do not know Tourism come before the House to discuss the what the position is. matter. Senator Browne requested publicly- Senator Norris referred to the European Com- funded New Year’s Eve fireworks. A young fel- mission. We are all amazed that the French Com- low like the Senator should have more to do on missioner appears to have come unscathed to the New Year’s Eve than go to a publicly-funded fire- Commission. I accept that in the French system works party. a presidential pardon wipes out all wrongdoing, which is handy. Mr. Browne: I have plenty to do on New Year’s I have tried to get answers to Senator Norris’s Eve, it is New Year’s Day that is the problem. questions. He should not think I am being tardy. Mr. B. Hayes: It depends on whom one brings Mr. Norris: I am quite sure. to the fireworks. 1279 Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) 24 November 2004. Act 1996: Referral to Joint Committee 1280

Mr. Browne: It happens in Melbourne. Ms O’Rourke: We hope to have the debate then and the office will contact Senators in that Ms O’Rourke: Senator Ross referred Aer regard. Lingus, about which Senator Minihan also con- Senator McHugh wanted to know why car tacted me, and we hope to have to a debate on parks at the Giant’s Causeway are full in Febru- it soon. This week’s business had already been ary, while they are empty in Donegal in July. arranged when the office was contacted by There is an all-Ireland tourism body, Tourism Senator Minihan but we hope to have such a Ireland Limited. I accept the Senator is con- debate next week. The Goldman Sachs report is cerned; he has often raised the issue of tourism on the website. in the House. Senator Hayes asked about forthcoming Bills Senators asked about the arrangements for the and when they are due to come before the House. budget debate, which we were discussing earlier We are drawing up a schedule for Members. It is outside the House. According to tradition, we only fair that spokespersons should get sufficient always hold the debate on the evening of the notice of Bills so they can prepare and make com- budget. We are in the middle of discussions with prehensive speeches on them in the House. We the party leaders to see if we can use Private hope to have that schedule for the party leaders Members’ time to hold the debate at 5 p.m. The this afternoon. House will not sit that afternoon because Senators will be in the Lower House to listen to An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ryan has moved an and observe the fireworks there. amendment to the Order of Business: “That statements on the Government’s reneging on its Mr. Norris: They are definitely publicly- pledge to meet the United Nations target for funded. overseas aid by 2007 be taken before No. 1.” Is the amendment being pressed? Ms O’Rourke: Yes. Mr. Ryan: Yes. Mr. Dardis: They are also indoors. Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 17; Nı´l, 30.

Ta´

Bannon, James. Henry, Mary. Browne, Fergal. McHugh, Joe. Burke, Paddy. Norris, David. Burke, Ulick. O’Meara, Kathleen. O’Toole, Joe. Cummins, Maurice. Phelan, John. Feighan, Frank. Quinn, Feargal. Finucane, Michael. Ross, Shane. Hayes, Brian. Ryan, Brendan.

Nı´l

Bohan, Eddie. Leyden, Terry. Brady, Cyprian. Lydon, Donal J. Brennan, Michael. MacSharry, Marc. Callanan, Peter. Mansergh, Martin. Cox, Margaret. Minihan, John. Daly, Brendan. Mooney, Paschal C. Dardis, John. Moylan, Pat. Dooley, Timmy. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Feeney, Geraldine. O’Brien, Francis. Fitzgerald, Liam. O’Rourke, Mary. Glynn, Camillus. Ormonde, Ann. Hanafin, John. Phelan, Kieran. Kenneally, Brendan. Scanlon, Eamon. Kett, Tony. Walsh, Kate. Kitt, Michael P. White, Mary M.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators O’Meara and Ryan; Nı´l, Senators Minihan and Moylan.

Amendment declared lost. Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Act 1996: Referral to Joint Committee. Question, “That the Order of Business be Ms O’Rourke: I move: agreed to,” put and declared carried. That the proposal that Seanad E´ ireann resolves that sections 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 of the 1281 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1282

Criminal Justice (Drug Trafficking) Act 1996 ments to the Proceeds of Crime Act 1996. Section (No. 29 of 1996), shall continue in operation 3 substitutes new definitions in that Act for for the period ending on 31 December 2006 be “applicant”, “proceeds of crime”, “property” and referred to the Joint Committee on Justice, “respondent”. The new definition of “applicant” Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights, in is a broader definition which will give the Crimi- accordance with paragraph (1) (Seanad) of the nal Assets Bureau the flexibility to take pro- orders of reference of that committee, which, ceedings in its own name in addition to taking not later than 30 November 2004, shall send a proceedings, as is already the case, in the name message to the Seanad in the manner pre- of a member or authorised officer of the bureau. scribed in Standing Order 67, and Standing The new definition of “proceeds of crime” Order 69(2) shall accordingly apply. replaces the reference to “the commission of an offence” in the existing definition, with the words Question put and agreed to. “criminal conduct” and a definition of “criminal conduct” is included in the section similar to that used in section 21(7) of the Criminal Justice Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 in respect Second Stage. of the offence of “money laundering”. This Minister of State at the Department of Trans- change means that it will not be necessary for the port (Mr. Callely): I am pleased to have the CAB to show that the criminal conduct was a par- opportunity to speak in the House. I was with ticular kind of criminality if it is shown that the some Senators last night who are, should I say, of property was obtained through conduct of one of the right political persuasion or socialist per- a number of kinds, each of which would be an suasion and we had an enjoyable night. Some of offence. In addition, the extra territorial refer- the females ditched me but I managed to get ences are included in the definition of “criminal home safely in any case. conduct” to link into the definition of “property” I am pleased to present to the House the Pro- which can include property outside the ceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999 on behalf jurisdiction. of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law The new definition also takes account of the Reform. Regrettably, the Minister is unable to be recent Supreme Court decision of 17 May 2004 in present due to other business and has asked me the case of McK. v. D. which found that the Pro- to convey his apologies to the House for his ceeds of Crime Act 1996 did not apply to foreign absence. The original purpose of the Bill, which criminality. The definition of “criminal conduct” was published in 1999, was to make some techni- ensures that foreign criminality is now covered cal amendments to the Proceeds of Crime Act by the scope of the legislation where there are 1996, based on the experience of the operation of proceeds of that criminality within the State. As I the Act since 1996. The Second Stage of the Bill have stated, the definition of “property” has been was taken in the Da´il in June 2000, but further amended to provide for inclusion of a reference progress was delayed pending the outcome of a to property which is situated outside the State but number of court challenges to the Act at that where there are specific links to this jurisdiction, time. The Bill fell with the last Da´il and was namely, that the respondent is domiciled, resident restored to the Order Paper in July 2002. or present in the State and all or any part of the However, following the publication of the criminal conduct takes place within the State. second interim report of the Flood tribunal in The definition of “respondent” has also been September of that year, it was decided to provide amended to include a reference to wherever the additional powers to bolster the work of the person is domiciled, resident or present to reflect Criminal Assets Bureau in pursuing the proceeds the fact that in some instances the service of pro- of all forms of crime, including corruption. To this ceedings may be out of the jurisdiction. An end, a substantial number of additional proposals additional change provides that not only may the were drawn up for inclusion in the Bill which respondent be the subject of proceedings but also were moved by way of amendments to the Bill on a person who, but for the Act, would become Committee Stage in the Da´il. entitled to inherit the property of the respondent In its amended format as passed by Da´il if he or she died. In addition to the changes in E´ ireann, the Bill is now divided into five parts. definitions already in the Proceeds of Crime Act Part 1 contains standard provisions. Part 2 deals 1996, new definitions are included for “consent with amendments to the Proceeds of Crime Act disposal order” and “criminal conduct”. The con- 1996 while Parts 3, 4 and 5 deal with amendments sent disposal order is a new provision which I will to the Criminal Assets Bureau Act 1996, the describe when I come to section 7. As I stated, a Criminal Justice Act 1994 and the Prevention of definition of criminal conduct is included. Corruption (Amendment) Act 2001, respectively. The combined changes relating to the defini- I propose to deal with the main proposals in the tions of “proceeds of crime”, “property”, “crimi- Bill, including those changes which have been nal conduct” and “respondent” will mean that the made in the other House. proceeds of crime legislation will apply in five Sections 1 and 2 of Part 1 contain the prelimi- specific scenarios as follows: where the respon- nary and general interpretative provisions. Part 2 dent and the property are in the State and the comprises nine sections and contains the amend- criminal conduct occurs within the State; where 1283 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1284

[Mr. Callely.] included in sections 5 and 6 with regard to section the respondent is situated outside the State but 3 interlocutory orders and section 4 disposal the property is located in the State and the crimi- orders. The purpose of providing for applications nal conduct occurs within the State; where the by way of originating motion is to ensure a pro- criminal conduct occurred outside the State but cedure by way of motion grounded on affidavit. the respondent and the property are situated As a result, defendants will be obliged to respond within the State, provided that the conduct consti- to proceedings on affidavit and so avoid the need tuting the offence is also an offence in the foreign for particulars and discovery at an early stage in jurisdiction; where the respondent is situated the process. The court will still be able to order within the State and the criminal conduct particulars and discovery and fuller pleadings occurred within the State but the property is when necessary. The effect will be to have the located outside the State; and where the property matter in a court list at the earliest opportunity is located within the State, the respondent is situ- with the full case of both parties set out in a for- ated outside the State and the criminal conduct mal manner. occurred outside the State, provided that the con- Section 5 is substantially the same as section duct constituting the offence is also an offence in 4, as published. In subsection (a), it reflects the the foreign jurisdiction. changes in section 3(a) to allow an action to be Section 3 also inserts a new section 1A into the taken in the name of the Criminal Assets Bureau. 1996 Act, the purpose of which is to make it clear It also introduces a permissive element to the that a person remains in possession of property decision making process of the court, by provid- even where the property, after seizure, is in the ing that the evidence tendered to it may now con- lawful possession of the Garda or the Revenue sist of or include evidence admissible by virtue of Commissioners or is subject to an interim or section 8, whereas previously the evidence ten- interlocutory order or any other order of the dered to it was required to consist of or include court or is subject to a letting agreement. such evidence. The effect of the latter change is Section 4 is largely similar to section 3, as pub- to provide the court with more flexibility with lished. The first change, contained in subsection regard to the matters it may take into consider- (a), is a technical amendment consequent to the ation in reaching its decision as to whether to amendment already made in section 2(a), which make an interlocutory order. The new subsection provides for applications to court to be made in (b) inserts a new subsection 1A into the principal the name of the Criminal Assets Bureau. The Act to provide for a consent disposal order to be second change makes provision for an interim taken contemporaneously with a section 3 inter- order made under section 2 of the principal Act locutory order if all the parties are in agreement. to be varied so that income tax or other sums Subsection (c) of section 5 inserts an additional owing on foot of court orders may be recovered. subsection 3A into section 3 of the principal Act. At present, an interim order may only be varied This additional subsection provides that a court on the application of the person against whom may vary the terms of an interlocutory order fol- the order is made or by another person who lowing an application to it by the applicant or any claims to own part or all of the property. This other person for the same reasons for which it additional subsection provides that the applicant, may vary an interim order, that is, to permit namely a person who is a member or an author- enforcement of any court order for payment of ised officer of the CAB or the Criminal Assets any sum, including an order as to costs; recovery Bureau itself, or any other person may apply for of income tax due as well as any fees or expenses a variation of an interim order for certain pur- arising under section 962 of the Taxes Consoli- poses. The purposes for which a court may vary dation Act 1997; and proceedings to be taken for any of the terms of an interim order are set out the recovery of any other sum owed by the in subsections (a), (b) and (c) of the new subsec- respondent. tion 3A and include where the respondent owes Subsection (d) of section 5 substitutes a new a sum under a court order, recovery of any sum wording for section 3(6)(a) of the principal Act, owed in income tax and to permit proceedings to providing that notice of an application under the be taken for the recovery of any other sum owed section be served by the applicant or other person by the respondent. This new provision will enable making the application on the respondent unless other specified claims on the property to be met the court is satisfied that it is not reasonably poss- from the frozen assets and will facilitate further ible to discover his or her whereabouts. the tracing of other properties without cost to Section 6 contains the provision to which I have the Exchequer. already referred to allow for an application for a The third change brought about by this section disposal order to be made by way of originating deals with giving notice of an application for an motion. interim order under section 2 of the principal Act Section 7 is a new provision for a consent dis- and follows on from subsection 3A, which posal order which was included on Committee enables the applicant or other person making the Stage. Section 4 of the Proceeds of Crime Act application to seek a variation of an interim 1996 already provides that where property has order. The section also provides in paragraph (d) been the subject of an interlocutory order for a that a section 2 application is to be made by way period of seven years, an application may be of originating motion. Similar amendments are made to the High Court by the Criminal Assets 1285 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1286

Bureau for a disposal order, whereby the prop- tation period provided by section 11(7) of the erty is transferred to the Minister for Finance. Statute of Limitations 1957. This amendment This amendment introduces the concept of a confirms the decision of the Supreme Court of 17 “consent disposal order” which will allow for that May 2004 in McK. v. D., where the court upheld period of seven years to be reduced on appli- two earlier decisions of the High Court to the cation to the court with the consent of all the par- effect that section 11(7) of the Statute of Limi- ties concerned. However, it contains a protection tations 1957 does not apply at any stage to pro- by providing that the court must not make such ceedings under the 1996 Act. Section 11 amends an order unless it is satisfied that no serious risk section 9 of the 1996 Act to make it clear that an of injustice arises. This provision was sought by affidavit of property or income which the court the Criminal Assets Bureau based on its experi- may direct a respondent to file is not generally ences to date. It has pointed out that, in some admissible in evidence in any criminal pro- instances, the individuals concerned want to see ceedings against the respondent or his or her final closure on the proceedings and do not wish spouse. to wait for the seven year period to elapse. The Part 3 comprises 6 sections which amend the consent disposal order procedure will allow this Criminal Assets Bureau Act 1996. Section 12 to happen. reflects the earlier change to the definition of Section 8 amends section 6(1)(a) of the princi- “criminal conduct” contained in the Proceeds of pal Act. At present, a respondent whose property Crime Act 1996 and provides for consistency is frozen under an interim or interlocutory order between the definition in that Act and the Crimi- may apply to the court for an order which will nal Assets Bureau Act 1996. The definition of enable that person to discharge reasonable living “place” is included with particular reference to and other necessary expenses. This section will the search warrant provisions of the legislation to extend that facility to any person who may be clarify that the scope of application of such war- affected by either an interim or interlocutory rants may include a dwelling in addition to any order under the principal Act. For example, it will other place. enable a spouse or dependent of the respondent Sections 13, 14 and 15 replace references to to make an application to the court in his or her “criminal activity” with “criminal conduct” in own right for access to the frozen property. those sections of the Criminal Assets Bureau Act, Section 9 amends section 8 of the principal Act where they occur, and provide consistency with in two ways. At present, section 8 of the 1996 Act the corresponding new proposals for the Pro- provides that evidence of belief of the applicant ceeds of Crime Act. Section 5(1) of the 1996 Act that property is the proceeds of crime must be provides, as one of the functions of the Criminal given in the case of an application for an interim Assets Bureau, “for co-operation with any police order under section 2, either on affidavit or if the force, or any authority, being a tax authority or court so directs in oral evidence and, in the case social security authority of a territory or state of an application under section 3 for an interlocu- other than the State.” However, civil forfeiture tory order, in oral evidence only. Under this new asset recovery agencies like the one recently provision, such evidence at the interlocutory established in the UK do not come within these stage may be given on affidavit or, where the categories and hence the need to include in the respondent requires the deponent to attend for area of co-operation an authority with functions the purpose of cross-examination or where the related to the recovery of proceeds of crime. court so directs, the evidence must be given Section 14(b) provides accordingly. orally. Section 15 amends the section 14 search war- This measure will enable the resources of the rant provision of the Criminal Assets Bureau Act Criminal Assets Bureau to be used more 1996 in many ways. It provides for the period of efficiently, while, at the same time, safeguarding the search warrant to be for one week from the the court’s role and the rights of the respondent. date of issuing of the warrant unless a judge In the second change, a new subsection (6) is orders otherwise, but in any event the period of being added to section 8 of the 1996 Act. This the warrant shall be no longer than 14 days. This new subsection is a consequential amendment upper time limit on the warrant was included fol- arising from the earlier proposal which permits lowing concerns expressed in the Da´il by several the Criminal Assets Bureau, as a corporate ident- Opposition Deputies. Section 15(b)(ii) makes it ity, to apply for orders under the principal Act clear that the material that can be seized cannot under its own name. It provides for a rebuttal of include material subject to legal privilege. Section a statutory presumption that a document pur- 15(e) provides that the authority to search also porting to have been issued by the Criminal includes authority to make and retain a copy of Assets Bureau and signed on its behalf shall be documents or records and, if necessary, the seiz- deemed to be such a document and so signed. ure and retention of computers or other storage Section 10 is included because of confusion medium on which a record may be kept. Section which has arisen in the past where proceeds of 15(f) inserts a new subsection (6A) modelled on crime applications for interlocutory orders pursu- the provisions of section 48 of the Criminal ant to section 3 of the 1996 Act were challenged Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001. It on the basis, incorrectly, that they are actions for provides, in the context of a search warrant, for forfeiture so as to benefit from the two year limi- a bureau officer who is a member of the Garda 1287 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1288

[Mr. Callely.] under section 39 of the 1994 Act has been made Sı´ocha´na to take certain specified actions in the to the Circuit Court for forfeiture, then the pro- case of computer searches. visions of section 38(3) relating to a three month Section 16 contains a provision to increase the time limit shall not apply. maximum amount of fines on summary convic- Its effect is to avoid the need for returning to tion for offences under the Criminal Assets the District Court every three months to renew a Bureau Act 1996 from \1,500 to \3,000. Section seizure order under section 38 in a situation 17 creates three new sections, 14A, 14B and 14C, where the Circuit Court has taken seisin of pro- in the Criminal Assets Bureau Act 1996. The new ceedings to deal with an application for forfeiture section 14A provides for production orders to of cash seized under section 39. In other words, make material available for Proceeds of Crime the cash can be retained without the need for Act purposes. This new provision is modelled on orders to be made in the District Court at three section 63 of the Criminal Justice Act 1994. It monthly intervals pending a final determination allows a bureau officer who is a member of the of the application for forfeiture in the Circuit Garda Sı´ocha´na to apply to the court for an order Court. to make material available for the purposes of an Section 20 amends the provision contained in investigation into whether a person has benefited section 39 of the Criminal Justice Act 1994 relat- from, is in receipt of, or controls proceeds of ing to forfeiture of seized cash and is a conse- crime. It outlines the conditions attaching to this quential amendment to take account of the fact order and deals with the operation of these orders that section 38 has been amended to refer to cash and also includes provision for criminal sanctions which is suspected directly or indirectly to rep- for non-compliance with the order. resent proceeds of any criminal conduct, and not, The new section 14B provides for an offence as previously, just drug trafficking. of disclosure prejudicial to making available of Section 21 amends section 43 of the Criminal material under the new section 14A, more com- Justice Act 1994 by providing for new definitions monly referred to as a “tipping off” offence. This of “cash”, “criminal conduct” and “proceeds of new provision is modelled on the offence of pre- crime”. The new definition of “cash” widens the judicing an investigation contained in section 58 existing definition by including notes and coins in of the Criminal Justice Act 1994. any currency, postal orders, cheques, bank drafts, The new section 14C provides for application bearer bonds and bearer shares. The definition of to the court for disclosure of the identity of per- “criminal conduct” is the same as that proposed sons for whom property is held in trust. This new provision will enable the chief bureau officer or for the Proceeds of Crime Act 1996, while the an authorised officer of the Revenue Commis- inclusion of the “proceeds of crime” definition sioners to apply to the High Court to establish ensures compatibility with the definition in the the identity of trustees or persons for whom prop- Proceeds of Crime Act 1996. erty is held in trust where there is an investigation Part 5 comprises just one section — section 22 into whether a person is in receipt of, or controls, — which inserts new sections 2A, 2B and 2C into or has benefited from, the proceeds of crime. the Prevention of Corruption (Amendment) Act Part 4 comprises 4 sections which amend the 2001. The new section 2A provides for seizure of Criminal Justice Act 1994. Section 19 amends the a gift or consideration which is suspected to be a seizure and detention of cash provision contained gift or consideration within the meaning of in section 38 of Criminal Justice Act 1994. The section 1 of that Act. It is modelled on section 38 new subsection (1) of section 38 gives the Garda of the Criminal Justice Act 1994 and will mean and officers of Customs and Excise a power of that a suspected bribe, as an instrumentality of search where there are reasonable grounds to sus- crime, will be automatically capable of seizure. pect that a person may be involved in importing The new section 2B provides for forfeiture by the or exporting an amount of cash not less than the court of the gift or consideration which has been prescribed amount of \6,500 and which either seized and detained under the previous provision. directly or indirectly represents the proceeds of The provision is modelled on the forfeiture of crime or is intended for use in connection with cash provision in section 39 of the Criminal criminal conduct. Justice Act 1994. The court may make an order, The new subsection 1(A) broadens the power regardless of whether proceedings have been of seizure in section 38 of such cash to officers of brought against a person for an offence with the Revenue Commissioners instead of officers of which the gift or consideration is connected, and Customs and Excise, as at present, and allows for the standard of proof for proceedings for forfeit- seizure of cash which is suspected directly or ure is that applicable to civil proceedings. indirectly to represent proceeds of any criminal The new section 2C applies the provisions of conduct, and not just drug trafficking, as at section 40 regarding appeal, section 41 on present. In addition, the amended seizure power interest, section 42 on procedure and section 45 will now apply to cash anywhere in the State and on disposal, which change the seizure not just to money “being imported into or 12 o’clock and forfeiture provisions of cash con- exported from the State.” A new subsection (3A) tained in Part VI of the Criminal inserted after subsection (3) of section 38 of the Justice Act 1994 to the new seizure and forfeiture 1994 Act provides that where an application provisions in these amendments. 1289 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1290

There are two possible additional proposals for the detail, application and otherwise — of this inclusion in this Bill on which work has been con- particular Bill. The officials of the Department of tinuing. An outline was given by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform have been very Justice, Equality and Law Reform on Committee determined to assist in addressing the issue Stage in the Da´il of a possible provision for an in before us, namely, the proceeds of crime and cor- personam action which would constitute a statu- ruption. I commend the Bill to the House. tory tort of unjust enrichment. Its purpose would be to deal with the situation where someone, by Mr. Cummins: I welcome the Minister of State means of some corrupt act, is able to benefit from to the House. My party is fully supportive of the the enhancement of value of property legally main thrust of this Bill. Whether that means acquired, arising from the corrupt act. The increasing the powers of CAB, gardaı´ or customs example was given of a person who bribes a officers, we are fully supportive of such measures. council official to allow him or her to build 60 However, we believe that the proceeds of crime, rather than 50 houses on an estate. The mechan- especially drug trafficking, should be ploughed ism that is being considered would provide for a back into the communities that have been rav- procedure to go after the additional profit gener- aged and destroyed by these criminals. The Bill ated by the bribe. before us has been lying around for four or five As outlined on Report Stage in the Da´il, a draft years. While I recognise that it fell with the last head of such a provision has been drawn up. It is Da´il, it was put back on the Da´il Order Paper in currently being scrutinised by senior counsel from July 2002 and it is only coming before this House both a constitutional and technical point of view now. At that time, some consideration was given and those views are expected shortly by the to setting up a second corruption assets bureau Attorney General. Senators will appreciate that along the lines of the present CAB, but it was not any such provision must be able to stand up to considered necessary. It was felt that the existing the most rigorous scrutiny. Subject to the advice activities of the CAB in the fight against corrup- of the Attorney General, it is intended to move tion could be best bolstered by the inclusion of an appropriate amendment on Committee Stage additional amendments in this Bill. in this House. The Bill is complicated and technical, clearing The other provision being considered for poss- up some of the definitions and making new pro- ible inclusion as an amendment on Committee visions which will bring it in line with the Pro- Stage in this House relates to hearsay evidence ceeds of Crime Act 1996, the Prevention of Cor- following the decision of the Supreme Court in ruption Act 2001, the Criminal Assets Bureau the Hunt case, CAB v. Hunt, 28 February 2003, Act 1996 and the Criminal Justice Act 1994. 173 and 174 / 01. In that case, the court took the Whatever is required in legislation to ensure that view that the reference at the end of section 8(5) the proceeds of crime support areas afflicted by of the Criminal Assets Bureau Act 1996 to infor- its effects should be expedited. The Government mation, documents and other material obtained will have my party’s support in that regard. As by CAB officers under the subsection being a result of the tardiness of the Government in admissible in subsequent proceedings, did not proceeding with the legislation, my colleague in bypass the rules of evidence but merely allowed the other House, Deputy O’Dowd, was forced to such documents to be admitted in accordance introduce a Bill of his own last year. True to form, with the usual rules of proof, notwithstanding the Government voted that down. Deputy their origin. The Criminal Assets Bureau has O’Dowd’s thinking was that the funds seized expressed concerns about the added administra- should be ring-fenced and used for a specific pur- tive burden in providing large volumes of admin- pose. In that context, the funds could have an istrative records arising from that decision and a influence in education and in discouraging the use possible amendment is therefore being examined. of drugs. This should be the intent of this Bill If feasible, the intention would be for this to be and the Minister for Finance must be amenable done by way of an amendment to the Criminal to such a suggestion. The creation of another Assets Bureau Act 1996, so that any proposal slush fund for electoral purposes is not envisaged would be restricted to proceeds of crime cases in these circumstances. We need strong assur- under the remit of the Criminal Assets Bureau. ances from the Minister that this will not be the This Bill is very complex and technical, but will case and that the communities most in need will considerably bolster the powers of the Criminal benefit as a result of these funds. These are the Assets Bureau in its continuing battle to go after people who have been hit by crime and they the proceeds of all types of crime, including white should benefit out of the resources seized from collar crime and corruption. It also makes some criminals. important changes to the Criminal Justice Act I listened with interest recently to the Minister 1994 and the Prevention of Corruption for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, when he (Amendment) Act 2001 which will be of great spoke of deplorable gang warfare in west Dublin. benefit to the Garda Sı´ocha´na and customs He stated that resources for the gardaı´ were not officials in pursuing all those who seek to profit an issue yet community leaders decried the scarc- from all crime. ity of community gardaı´ in Blanchardstown and I would like to record my appreciation of all other areas of Dublin. The problems in these those who have been involved in the drafting — areas must be tackled by an inter-agency 1291 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1292

[Mr. Cummins.] which is necessary. I am sorry that the Bill was approach, including social services, the gardaı´ and not brought before the Seanad sooner, although sporting and youth organisations working I realise that certain problems arose in the together and rebuilding communities. The vast intervening period. We support the general thrust majority of residents in estates in Ireland are of the Bill. good law-abiding citizens, who want to live in peace and harmony with their friends and neigh- Mr. Kett: I welcome the Minister of State to bours. They are terrified by anti-social behaviour the House. He is a former colleague of mine from perpetrated by thugs, vandals and dangerous our days on Dublin City Council. It is good to criminals. No law-abiding citizen should be afraid have him here. I am grateful for the opportunity to live in his or her own house or estate in this to say a few words on this amending legislation. country, yet this is the case. From what I can As the Minister of State said, the Proceeds of glean from the Estimates, the Minister must be Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999 was introduced to expecting to get his hands on quite a large slice amend aspects of the Proceeds of Crime Act of funds seized by the Criminal Assets Bureau to 1996. It will ensure that the 1996 Act can fight honour some of the promises made. He continues effectively, as it was intended, against criminals to make promises on a recurring basis in press who are trying to retain assets they have obtained statements. The public wants action rather than as a result of unlawful activity or illegal oper- fine words. The Minister talks a good show and I ations. I understand that certain aspects of the support him in many of his pronouncements original Act, such as the question of who is which would be strong on law and order. responsible for the assets of criminals following a However, people’s patience is wearing thin at the court order to seize them, are open to inter- moment because of the inaction in so many areas. pretation. We must get to the root of the problem. The The Bill should be welcomed by the Garda and ring-fencing of the funds from the proceeds of others who work in this area because it will give crime could go some way in addressing the prob- them a major tool to use when tackling the nasty lems of the areas in question. Section 4 of the characters they encounter. Such workers will no 1996 Act provides that the proceeds of the assets longer be powerless when they try to challenge cannot be distributed until seven years have individuals whose lifestyles are far beyond what passed, but surely a period of three or four years they can afford from legitimate means. Not only would make more sense. The Minister of State does the Bill provide that such criminals will be said that the consent disposal order will deal with punished financially, but it also increases confi- the problem, which I welcome. The Criminal dence in the system among the Garda and the Assets Bureau, which was established by the rain- public. It reassures the people that ill-gotten gains bow Government, has been one of the most accumulated by criminals will eventually find important weapons in combating criminals who their way back to the Exchequer. Criminals felt they were untouchable. The bureau has had engage in their murky business so they can gain great success in retrieving and selling assets. The the trappings of wealth and enjoy the lifestyles seven-year period I have mentioned is too long, they desire. Now that the CAB has proven itself, however, and I am glad it has been dealt with. they are starting to wonder whether they can The victims of crime should be to the front of retain what they have gained illegally. That is an our minds at all times. They should be supported indication that we are starting to win the battle from the funds seized from criminals because against them. they have suffered at the hands of such people. An examination of the Criminal Assets A far greater emphasis should be placed on the Bureau’s record — the number of interim orders plight of victims. In that context, it is difficult not and interlocutory orders in respect of property, to think of the case of an elderly gentleman in the number of demands for the payment of tax County Donegal, which was reported in a news- and the interest on such payments — demon- paper today. When one sees the state he was left strates that it has enjoyed considerable success in in after he was beaten up, one questions the dealing with people suspected of being involved development of our society. in criminal activity. The bureau is highly It is clear that the Bill’s technical aspects are respected nationally and internationally. In 2003, necessary to protect and increase the powers of it obtained interim orders worth over \3 million the Criminal Assets Bureau and all other State and interlocutory orders worth almost \900,000. agencies. Fine Gael supports the Bill’s technical It demanded tax and interest of over \7 million elements, although it may propose some amend- and collected approximately \10 million in that ments on Committee Stage. It awaits with interest year. It collected social welfare savings of \110 the Government amendments which were men- million and recoveries of almost \200,000 in 2003. tioned by the Minister of State, particularly those Such figures comprise a tremendous record for a relating to the additional profit that people may given year. have gained from the sale of sites and other In the period between its statutory inception in matters referred to by the Minister of State, such October 1996 and the end of December 2003, the as business with planning officers. bureau obtained interim restraint orders to the I assure the Minister of State that my party will value of approximately \51 million and final support the Government in expediting this Bill, restraint orders worth approximately \22 million. 1293 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1294

It demanded taxes and interest of over \76 mill- customs officers close down routes, the criminals ion in that period, of which \56 million was col- will find other ones by which to ply their trade. lected. There were social welfare payments of The Garda Sı´ocha´na has seen success, seizing \1.5 million and recoveries of almost \500,000 approximately \20 million in drugs in 2000, \45 between October 1996 and December 2003. Since million in 2001, \49 million in 2002 and \100 mill- its inception the bureau has achieved tremendous ion in 2003. That is a very significant advance. I feats overall and in individual years. have no doubt that those who trade in drugs look Many of the moneys about which we are talk- at those figures and see they really have a fight ing have been seized from drug barons. The drugs on their hands. That fight will step up a notch problem no longer pertains to Dublin and the because of legislation such as this. The Garda other cities only — it has long since found its way National Bureau of Fraud Investigation received to various towns and villages. The national drugs over 4,000 reports of suspicious transactions to strategy was established to tackle the drugs issue the value of \271 million in 2002, and over 4,000 in the most comprehensive way that has been reports to the value of \450 million in 2003. done in the history of the State. It assigned clear Those are examples of the bureau’s success rate. responsibilities and set targets for the various Organised crime is a relatively new phenom- Departments and agencies involved. The drugs enon in this country, having its origins in the drug task forces, which were established in the areas trade of the early 1980s. The Government’s most affected, help communities, agencies and all response has been hard-hitting, something dem- those involved to work together in a developed onstrated by the legislation passed by this House. way to tackle the issues which exist in each area. In recent years, the Criminal Justice (Illicit The task forces have been particularly effective Traffic by Sea) Act 2003, which is designed to in places where drug taking was endemic. Having tackle the movement of drugs across our waters, served on Dublin City Council and worked in the has become law. It is quite difficult to stop it, north inner city for almost 18 years, I saw at first since we have a coastline of over 3,000 km. With hand the devastating effects of drug taking on the best will in the world, that is a difficult coast- local areas. line to protect. There is no doubt that one cannot We have made good progress in providing do it 100%. treatment to those who depend on drugs. The It is therefore paramount that we continue to Eastern Regional Health Authority, which has nurture good relations with our neighbours in the expanded its services, has been involved in a sig- European Union. The drugs obviously emanate nificant degree of activity. The Minister of State, from outside our waters. If we enjoy good Deputy Callely, who was chairman of the auth- relations and neighbourliness with other coun- ority when it was known as the Eastern Health tries and develop relationships, that too will help. Board, has first-hand experience of the efforts For that reason, the Criminal Justice (Joint Inves- which were made at that time. There has been tigation Teams) Act 2004 was most welcome. The a major expansion of the methadone treatment Act allows teams to be set up for a specific pur- programme, from 1,400 participants in 1995 to pose and period of time to carry out criminal almost 7,000 now. The number of treatment investigations with cross-border dimensions. That locations has increased dramatically, despite a will be a very effective Act into the future. great deal of opposition from communities which I have heard my colleague opposite encourage did not want such centres to be based in their the Minister to ring-fence confiscated moneys. localities. The authority could be faulted for the The notion has a certain amount of credit, but I manner in which it pursued the matter in certain also see the other side of the argument. The instances. It tended to go to places to develop money coming in is not recurrent, and one never centres before leaking details of developments to knows from one year to the next exactly what one the public. One can imagine the opposition to will have in the coffers. If one is planning a such centres that resulted from the secretive way system in a community where one might establish in which they were developed. I experienced such a structure, it is difficult to do so without knowing problems at first hand. The authority has suc- one will have the money to do so the following ceeded in establishing a significant number of year. Judging by the success rate of the Criminal centres, which are doing terrific work. Assets Bureau and the National Bureau of Fraud Prevention was one of the four pillars of the Investigation, there is no doubt funds are avail- drugs strategy. While it is important to treat those able, but initially one will certainly have that in communities which have suffered from the problem. Perhaps once-off money might be used scourge of drug taking, we should provide suf- as a capital allocation to put a structure in place ficient resources to those working in the area of in a community that might need repair or demo- prevention. The only way to prevent someone lition and replacement. A voluntary effort might from developing a drug habit is to cut the supply. go into running it. That is not the most desirable Gardaı´ and customs officers are to be congratu- scenario. The Minister for Finance, Deputy lated on the significant seizures they have made Cowen, has a problem with the idea, but I under- in recent years. The amount seized is evidence in stand the commendable thinking behind it. Per- itself of the fact that we are still a major target for haps we should examine a way of putting some- criminal gangs as a country to which they want to thing into specific areas subjected to the scourge ship drugs. I have no doubt that, as gardaı´ and of drugs. I wish the Minister of State, Deputy 1295 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1296

[Mr. Kett.] most important of all is that we properly fund our Callely, well in steering the Bill through the basic education system in primary and secondary House. schools. I do not know if the Minister of State, Deputy Ms Tuffy: I welcome the legislation which is Callely, is aware of it, but in my constituency designed to improve the 1996 Act. Provisions are there is a project called the Carline Centre of being clarified in this legislation following feed- Learning. It concentrates on people outside the back from the Criminal Assets Bureau, for mainstream education system who could become example, on the operation of the original Act. subject to criminal influence and get involved in Last night on the Internet I looked at transcripts that but for the type of work carried out by the of Report Stage in the Da´il on 13 October. I centre. The project was originally set up by a local could not access the debate in the Select Commit- nun and her order. The original idea was that tee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s people who might get involved in joyriding were Rights during which amendments were tabled. trained in mechanics. The centre also teaches However, I noticed that on both Stages the issue English, mathematics, catering, child care and so arose of how much money has accrued to the on. Those involved have contacted local public Exchequer. representatives. While they receive funding from At the time I understood that the Minister was different Departments, they are never sure saying essentially that, although so many millions exactly what it will be or whether they will have had been frozen, only \1 million had accrued to the necessary funds from one year to the next. the Exchequer. Perhaps the Minister of State, The Government needs to provide guaranteed Deputy Callely, might update us on that figure. annual funding for such initiatives so that these I understand that the new provision in this Bill groups can plan their work in advance and carry allowing for a consent disposal order is intended it out without fear of having to cut back on train- to benefit both parties, but it would also help ing. At one stage, they were examining cutbacks accrue money to the Exchequer more quickly. in woodwork, mechanics and so on, which they Perhaps the Minister of State might clarify how had commenced. the Department hopes that will operate. Does it The legislation is welcome but, as Senator Ross expect more moneys to accrue in the near future pointed out recently, while the legislation pro- or will it take a long time? vides for the imposition of fines on financial insti- Regarding the issue raised by Senator Kett tutions where they carry out unlawful acts, such about the ring-fencing of moneys obtained under fines are only a drop in the ocean to them and it the legislation, I know that the Labour Party had is worth their while to carry out these acts and a Report Stage amendment in the Da´il along the then pay the fines. How is the legislation impact- lines mentioned, namely, that money realised on ing on crime rates? Are criminals paying fines disposal orders under the principal Act, as under these provisions but not curtailing their amended by this legislation, should be used for illegal activities? Are they leaving their lives of community development purposes in crime behind when they are caught? disadvantaged areas. In this House and pre- viously in the Da´il, the Minister of State, Deputy Dr. Mansergh: I welcome the Minister of State Brian Lenihan, said there were problems with to the House and I also welcome the Bill. It has that from the point of view of the Minister for been delayed for five years because of legal chal- Finance, Deputy Cowen. I wonder how the Mini- lenges but this is an opportunity to close loop- ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, holes and to provide the broadest practical defini- Deputy McDowell, feels about it. It is obviously tions and flexibility of operation. a good idea and we have ring-fenced moneys in This is one of the most important and success- other legislation. ful criminal law initiatives ever undertaken. The It would be very positive for traduced and original legislation was introduced as a Private disadvantaged areas and, in general, since all Members’ Bill by the then Fianna Fa´il spokes- areas are disadvantaged to different degrees. For person, the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, example, areas not traditionally thought of as Deputy O’Donoghue, and was subsequently disadvantaged are also experiencing issues adopted by the former Minister for Justice, Nora related to crime and producing criminals. We Owen. It was perhaps a turning point in the fight must examine how we can put money into com- against crime. It took place against the back- munities to help those detrimentally affected by ground of the murder of Veronica Guerin, who crime and prevent crime in future. I feel strongly was a friend and close colleague of mine, having that money should be put into education. In my worked for a few months on the fifth floor of constituency there are many such projects. One Leinster House, and the scandalous situation that area that has been neglected by the Government existed at the time whereby extremely wealthy is primary schools in disadvantaged areas. Four drugs barons flaunted their wealth with apparent schools in the RAPID area of my constituency immunity. Nobody was able to obtain the neces- have been crying out for money for such things sary proof to connect them to the criminal acts as repairs without getting what they have sought that sustained their wealth. The Act enabled us over the past few years. It is all very well putting to get to grips with the problem and it has been money into homework clubs and the like, but widely copied and admired elsewhere. I person- 1297 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1298 ally heard Prime Minister Blair express his admir- Mr. Feighan: I welcome the Minister of State, ation for the Act but, given that the legal and Deputy Callely, to the House and wish him well constitutional issues have been clarified, this with the Bill. The proceeds of crime legislation legislation will enable its important work to be has been a major achievement. It was set up after carried out more efficiently. the murder of journalist Veronica Guerin in 1996. Given that a seven year freeze was provided That was a testing time for the State when crimi- under the Act, not much income has been trans- nal gangs felt they could run everything. Many ferred to the State, though the legislation pro- of the gangs were involved in prostitution, drugs, vides for matters to be tied up by consent within armed robberies and the sale of guns. They felt the seven-year period and, therefore, more immune from the law. income may pass to the State. It is reasonable that However, the horrific murder of Veronica dependants should be given enough to live on Guerin, a journalist who purveyed freedom of from the frozen assets. The Minister of State also information but whose reports did not please the so-called godfathers, was a turning point in how suggested short-circuiting the rigmarole of going we dealt with organised crime. Nowadays if we into the formalistic proof of the authenticity of can convince a court that people are enjoying a documents when their authenticity is not lifestyle they could not have earned legally, a seriously in question. judge can order the confiscation and sale of their Senator Tuffy raised the issue of tying the pro- possessions. Too often people driving flash cars ceeds of crime to community development. As and wearing jewellery that was probably worth my party’s finance spokesperson, and given my more than my car seemed to be immune from understanding of the Department of Finance’s investigation. Thankfully, we now have legislation thinking on the subject, there are good reasons that has dealt with the issue. for the Department’s reluctance to tie incomes Last year, Deputy O’Dowd published a Private from various sources to particular purposes. Members’ Bill to amend the Proceeds of Crime However well the legislation works, the proceeds Act. The purpose of his Bill was to ensure that would be insufficient to fund community develop- the sizeable funds seized by the CAB would be ment. This must be funded from general taxation ring-fenced and used to rehabilitate drug users. and, perhaps, the national lottery. I am not sure There is merit in that because most of the assets there is merit in the proposal. While a good case seized by the CAB comes from illegal gains from can always be made in a specific instance, if one drugs. A United Kingdom report estimated that multiplies that across different Bills, there could one kilogram of heroin distributed at street level be a plethora of ties, which would make the generated 220 victims of burglary and £220,000 administration of the public finances very worth of property stolen by addicts to fuel their difficult. habits. We are not tackling the issue of drugs suf- ficiently. I agree with Deputy O’Dowd that the Mr. Cummins: How much is available funds seized by the CAB should be ring-fenced currently? to tackle the spiralling epidemic of drugs on our streets. An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. Senator The issue of the horrific assaults that took place Mansergh, without interruption. over the weekend were raised on the Order of Business today. One man was shot in his bed in Dr. Mansergh: However, I agree it is important what appears to be a gangland killing. One non- to spend money on disadvantaged communities national was stabbed to death and another where the effects of drugs trafficking are often stabbed in Tallaght. An elderly gentleman was also hurt in Donegal. Are we sure that drugs were most visible. The Minister is contemplating an not involved in some manner in these crimes? amendment, which will also deal with corruption Drugs are an ever increasing problem and it is for and bring that under the ambit of the Criminal that reason I would like the proceeds of crime to Assets Bureau. Like Sherlock Holmes’s dog that be ring-fenced. Those funds would give the drugs did not bark in the night, it is striking that in the task forces more bite and provide them with eight years the Act has been in operation and, better resources. More gardaı´ could be involved despite it short-circuiting some ordinary legal in the drugs forces and the Garda could also be safeguards, I am not aware of any scandal, alleged provided with extra resources to tackle increasing glaring injustice or any alleged abuse of human crime. The problem is in our major cities but it rights arising from its operation. That is a great will escalate and permeate into every town, vil- tribute to the spirit in which it has been operated. lage and rural area if not tackled. All legislation is only as good as the spirit in We have a raft of criminals who operate and which it is implemented. All parties have had a run successful drugs operations in Amsterdam part in this initiative and the legislation stream- and Spain. They appear to be untouchable and I lines it, which is very much to be welcomed find this difficult to accept. We do not always because this is one of the most successful and sig- believe the tabloids, but one must read them to nificant criminal law initiatives to have been see that these criminals are running their own undertaken in the State. It has enabled us to turn show. Yesterday, the Taoiseach more or less said the tide. that the ill-gotten gains of this criminal under- 1299 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1300

[Mr. Feighan.] Fianna Fa´il’s efforts in Government carried on world crime were perhaps being used to buy from the example it showed during its time in property in Spain. That is an unacceptable situa- Opposition. This was the single greatest legislat- tion. I am pleased that many countries have fol- ive initiative shown by any Government in recent lowed our example in terms of enacting legis- years. The European Union’s multidisciplinary lation to deal with the proceeds of crime. It has group on organised crime concluded that the Irish been successful in Northern Ireland in dealing authorities had shown they were prepared to be with paramilitaries. innovative in their approach to national and In the United Kingdom where the authorities international organised crime, especially in did not regulate bureaus de change or money regard to the Criminal Assets Bureau. The Pro- transmission agents they have good evidence that ceeds of Crime Bill falls into the same category. much money was laundered for criminals through We have witnessed great benefits from this these. Is that the case here or have we legislation innovation in recent years in terms of clamping to cover the transmission of funds by such agen- down on organised crime and the godfathers who cies? While the banks are regulated, I would like are causing such havoc throughout the country. my anxieties allayed with regard to the bureaus However, our innovation has been matched by de change. further innovation on the part of criminals as they How much money is currently in the fund? The seek to find new ways of beating the system, Garda cannot name the persons with whom the which they are doing most successfully. Criminal Assets Bureau has made settlements or We have heard a great deal of reference in the provide information on the settlements. I under- debate to organised crime, drugs and the larger stand there must be discretion and some secrecy issues of crime. However, we must also seek to on the issue. As public representatives our assets use similar initiatives in tackling petty crime. are in the public domain, yet if a question is asked Public order offences are a matter of significant in the Da´il on the issue of criminal assets it is importance, particularly late at night due to considered inappropriate for the CAB to disclose alcohol and drug abuse or other factors. Minors the information sought. The overall sum of assets carry out many of these crimes and we must find collected by the bureau from 1996 to 31 October innovative ways of dealing with this problem. amounts to \69,262,409. This is an amount and I There is a great onus on parents to take would like to see being spent in the right way. responsibility for their children’s actions. Senator I welcome any amendments that will make the Scanlon suggested one approach to the problem Bill watertight and ensure we tackle the god- last year, namely that children’s allowance, in fathers of crime. Campaigners for civil liberties effect, would be performance related. This would have said its powers are dangerous and destroy mean that if a child was out of school or was the presumption of innocence. We have nothing carrying out public order offences the responsi- to fear in that regard. For too long these crime bility would fall back on the parents and chil- lords have felt untouchable. We can have no dren’s allowance would only be paid to those who untouchables in the State. The only force we took responsibility for their children and ensured should have is the Garda Sı´ocha´na. The Bill’s pri- they were in the right place at the right time. mary aim is to reduce crime and we will do this Drugs and other serious problems must be by working closely with our law enforcement tackled but we also have a responsibility to try to partners. The assets accumulated through unlaw- prevent younger emerging criminals from going ful means must be removed. The CAB and this to the bad. Those who commit public order legislation target the godfathers who have gained offences today may go on to commit more serious money through drugs and illegal businesses. crimes down the line. We must face up to the I wish the Minister of State well with the legis- matter and try to come up with innovative lation and hope the money seized will be ring- approaches. While curtailing children’s allowance fenced to tackle drugs as the drugs task forces are may appear radical we must explore every poss- not fully resourced. Anything that will help them ible option. to tackle the spiralling drug problem is welcome. The best way to invest the proceeds of crime taken by the Criminal Assets Bureau would be to Mr. MacSharry: I welcome the Minister of put it all into preventative strategies. The sports State, Deputy Callely, to the House. I am pleased capital programme would be one worthy benefici- to have the opportunity to speak on this excellent ary. It would also be useful to work with various Bill. I pay tribute to the Department of Justice, youth and sporting organisations on a national Equality and Law Reform officials for their basis on strategies to prevent young people from efforts in streamlining the Bill and dealing with becoming involved in crime. The young criminals issues that were wide open to interpretation. of today will become the serious hardened and The Bill copperfastens the true intentions of organised criminals of the future. the principal Act and is to be welcomed in that This funding should be used in the manner I context. have outlined. The sports capital programme is The Act originated when Deputy O’Donoghue one way but I am sure there are many ways in initiated a Private Member’s Bill in the other which we can use the money to benefit children House, the Organised Crime (Restraint and Dis- and younger people and keep them on the posal of Illicit Assets) Bill. It is worth noting that straight and narrow. This would be much more 1301 Proceeds of Crime (Amendment) Bill 1999: 24 November 2004. Second Stage 1302 beneficial to them in the long term and to the invested. Senator Kett referred to the various State. programmes with which the health authorities The Bill is highly technical. I especially wel- have been involved over a prolonged period of come section 5, an amendment of section 6 of the time when there was no roll-in from CAB money. principal Act, which would allow a dependant of It should be noted that the proportion of drug- a criminal who may not be involved in any crimi- related funds of the total obtained by CAB is nal activity to be entitled to reasonable and uncertain as CAB collects revenue from a necessary living expenses. That is a positive number of sources. development. Another issue which was wide open to inter- Mr. Cummins: The point is that there should pretation is that frozen assets, including cash, was be additional money to the current spending. in the notional possession of the garda who moved the order. I am pleased this matter has Mr. Callely: There are other sources such as tax been ironed out and that the criminal will still be offences. We all subscribe to the need to continue in possession of his or her assets but will not be to enhance the existing programmes. If there is in a position to use them. more money in the central pot, I hope more I welcome the Bill, as others have done. I con- money will go to the priority issues which we gratulate the officials who drew up this legislation would all like to see being addressed. Senators which took some time for a wide variety of also referred to the impact on criminality of the reasons and join with others in commending it to provisions of the CAB legislation. Senator Kett the House. congratulated the Garda Sı´ocha´na and customs officers who take significant risks in this area but Minister of State at the Department of Trans- are very determined and committed to their port (Mr. Callely): I thank all the Senators who duties and are professional in doing so, with contributed to the debate on this important Bill which I agree. I have great admiration and and welcome the constructive tone of the debate. respect for Deputy Garda Commissioner Fachtna It is appropriate that Deputy O’Donoghue, who Murphy who established CAB when he was a initiated the legislation in Private Members’ time superintendent or chief superintendent. He has in 1996 was acknowledged, in addition to the then done trojan and professional work with CAB, Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which has in turn done a great deal to address the former Deputy Owen. impact on society of criminality. Senator Kett also Some interesting comments have been made referred to CAB’s success in the context of its but I am not sure I will be able to respond to figures and its large impact on criminal proceeds. every issue. I am happy to speak further to any My colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality Senator who does not believe I have adequately and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, has set in answered his or her query. motion a process to examine the issue of youth A number of Senators, including Senators justice. We are at a preliminary stage in this Cummins, Kett and Mansergh mentioned the regard but hope to have a report in mid-2005 on delay in the Bill coming before the House. As I a cross-departmental basis. Garda resources are stated at the outset, this delay was outside the another important issue, in respect of which I am control of the Department and the Parliamentary Counsel because of other factors. While the delay delighted to report to the House the additional is regrettable, it has allowed for a substantially Garda funding, announced by my ministerial col- more far-reaching Bill than the original. This will league, Deputy McDowell, which is coming on greatly enhance the role of the officials in the stream. Criminal Assets Bureau, customs officials and the Garda Sı´ocha´na in combating those who seek to Mr. Cummins: I am glad the Minister of State profit from crime. has announced this again because it has already A number of Senators inquired about funding been announced on numerous occasions. being ring-fenced. If this issue were teased out I am not sure if Members would be so sure this An Cathaoirleach: Allow the Minister of State would be the best way to proceed. It is not quite to proceed without interruption. as easy as saying that because there is a regular pot of money, one can identify schemes which can Mr. Callely: I am delighted to state that great be ring-fenced and is guaranteed a flow of progress has been made on Garda activity and funding. the level of supports which are being put in place The issue of drug-related funds was referred to, for the force. The Garda Commissioner is very in regard to which I am pleased to state that happy with the progress made and the commit- Ireland ranks very high in the EU chart on the ments he has received from the Government. On amount of money the Government is the other side of that coin is the issue of victims, 1 o’clock spending on fighting the drug prob- which was also referred to. In that regard, a vic- lem. It is spending just shy of \200 tims’ charter has been published by the Depart- million per annum on prevention, treatment, sup- ment of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The ply reduction and education, all of which are State supports the victim support organisations areas in which we want to see money being which are doing great work. 1303 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1304

[Mr. Callely.] for 2005, including further spending measures I was asked about the amounts of money and taxation. involved in final disposal orders. As the Act came In framing the 2005 Estimates the Government into effect in 1996, final disposal orders can only was conscious that the funds being spent are pro- be made now because of the seven year time vided through the taxes paid by workers and busi- lapse. I understand that to date, two final disposal nesses. It is important that these taxpayers can orders have been made — one for \102,000 and see real value for their taxes and that Govern- another for \169,000. These should go to the ment priorities in spending reflect this as much Department of Finance in early December, as possible. Accordingly, the Estimates are about although it is dependent on whether the respon- ensuring, for example, that ageing members of dents go to court in the meantime. As seven years families are better cared for, that children have have elapsed since the commencement of the Act, better facilities in which to learn and develop and increasing numbers of orders will be made in the that those who are disadvantaged progress coming months on a continuing basis. through tangible improvements in their lives. The The overall sum for tax collected by the Crimi- Estimates and the budget must also contribute to nal Assets Bureau between 1996 and October our general economic and social development. 2004 is \69.26 million. In the period since its It is the objective of the Government, by mak- inception up to 31 October 2003, the bureau has ing the correct decisions in the Estimates and obtained interim and final restraint orders to the budget, to promote sustainable economic growth value of more than \51 million and \22 million so we have the resources to spend money on the respectively. Senators will find further details of social needs of our society that help enhance the the activities of the CAB since its establishment dignity and quality of life of those who require in 1996 in its annual reports, which are available our help and support. It is through the implemen- in the Oireachtas Library. tation of the correct economic policies and the This is a complex and technical Bill which will creation of an efficient and enterprise friendly considerably bolster the powers of the Criminal taxation system that we can best provide the Assets Bureau in the continuing battle to go after funds that help advance these objectives. On an the proceeds of all types of crime, including white objective analysis, I strongly contend that the collar crime and corruption. The amendments to Government’s management of the nation’s the Criminal Justice Act 1994 and the Prevention finances has been excellent in both good and less of Corruption (Amendment) Act 2001 will be of favourable economic times. great benefit to the Garda Sı´ocha´na and customs As a result of an international downturn that officials in pursuing those who seek to profit began in 2001 we have had to keep a relatively from crime. tight rein on public spending in recent years. The clear, sober and stark message from the Accordingly, we have reduced the gap between Government is that it is tough on crime and is revenue and public spending growth and man- intent on continuing to win every battle against aged to consolidate our fiscal position. Managing criminals on behalf of law abiding citizens and the public spending growth broadly in line with the judicial and legal system and we will win the war. growth in resources and in a manner sustainable For the State and its citizens, it will be a win, win, in the medium term remains essential. The win situation. Government intends to continue with this general I thank Senators for their contributions to this approach so as not to undermine the hard work debate and their co-operation. I commend the of the past few years, which ensured that we are Bill to the House. now better placed than most to take advantage of the current international economic upturn. Question put and agreed to. While the world economic outlook is now improving and we are experiencing an economic An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to take upturn, our economy will not return to the high Committee Stage? growth rates we saw in the period up to 2001. The consensus among most commentators is that Mr. Kett: Next Tuesday, 30 November. economic growth in 2004 will be approximately Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 30 Nov- 5%. This is a continuation of last year’s positive ember 2004. trend. There are, however, a number of risks to our economic performance next year. These Sitting suspended at 1.10 p.m. and resumed at include oil prices, the dollar and a possible weak- 2.30 p.m. ening of the US economy. A combination of these events could lead to a slowdown in domestic economic activity. Despite these risks, Book of Estimates 2005: Statements. however, I believe the economic prospects for Minister for Finance (Mr. Cowen): Iam 2005 and beyond are quite positive. delighted to have this opportunity to outline to The Government’s successful management of Seanad E´ ireann the Government’s public spend- the public finances and the economy has resulted ing plans as set out in the 2005 Estimates. In my in a major reduction in the debt burden, with the budget next week I will set out the full details of general Government debt falling from a level the Government’s economic and fiscal strategy close to 100% of GDP in the early 1990s to its 1305 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1306 current level of approximately 31% of GDP. for 2004. Higher receipts of \100 million across a Similarly, the cost of servicing debt has reduced few Departments will result in a net total forecast significantly in terms of the resources available. saving of \250 million between current and capi- The cost of servicing the national debt in 1990 tal. This equates to approximately 0.4 % of the took up 29% of tax revenue; it is expected to total gross provision in the 2004 Revised Esti- require approximately 7% of tax revenue this mates volume. Of the \150 million saving overall year. Reducing debt has turned debt interest pay- on gross spending, a saving of \70 million is fore- ments into money which is available on an cast on current spending. ongoing annual basis for funding real improve- The Exchequer provision for capital expendi- ments in public service provision. ture in 2004 was \5.6 billion. When account is Large surpluses enjoyed until 2000 are now taken of \248 million capital carryover from this replaced with a position much closer to balance. year to next under the multi-annual capital envel- When the downturn came, the general Govern- opes announced in last year’s budget, there is a ment surplus of \4.5 billion for 2000 turned into small saving on capital of \80 million. Some \46 a deficit of \300 million in 2002, showing how million of this will be used to fund current spend- important it is to be prudent in managing public ing on justice and transport. I will return to the services at the top of an economic cycle so that subject of capital carryover when I deal with services are not totally disrupted and set back investment for 2005. when the downturn sees tax revenues ebb away. We are providing for an increase of \2.5 billion Due to higher than expected economic growth in gross spending on public services in 2005, and, consequently, higher tax revenue buoyancy, bringing the total cost to \43.6 billion for the 2004 is turning out approximately \2 billion year. This represents a 6% increase on a pre- better than had been budgeted. However, a sig- budget basis. The Government’s approach to for- nificant element, some \670 million, of this mulating the 2005 Estimates has been to allocate improvement is due to the Revenue Commis- resources to priority needs, while being consistent sioners’ special investigation receipts which are with an overall public finance position that pro- once off in nature. motes sustainable economic and employment While making significant progress in managing growth. We have allocated particular priority to the public finances, the Government has more spending on health and education in the pre- than doubled total spending on public services to budget Estimates. Accordingly, we have provided over \41 billion between 1997 and 2004 and has almost \11 billion for health, an increase of \915 managed to do this without recourse to large- million, or 9%, and \7.1 billion for education, an scale borrowing or increased taxes. Our aim is to increase of \530 million, or 8%. continue to support economic growth and The increased provision of \915 million for employment while generating resources for key health will fund improved access to primary care, social and economic public services and invest- high priority disability services such as day care ment priorities. To achieve this objective, there facilities, respite services and dedicated units and must be a correlation between the growth in other initiatives in acute hospital services. The spending on public services and the growth in rev- cumulative increase in gross expenditure on enue, while seeking to address priority areas health during the period 1997 to 2005 will amount where Government responds to particular ser- to 205%, representing an additional \7.4 billion. vice pressures. It is important to put on record that this massive I intend to maintain this balanced approach level of increased provision has led to improved and this is reflected in the 2005 Estimates. An services. Staffing levels have increased by almost expenditure spree in buoyant economic circum- 50% from a base of 66,000 in 1997 to almost stances would simply overheat our economy, lead 98,000 this year. This major increase in staffing to inflationary pressures and excessive wage levels has included a significant increase in front- demands and cause serious damage to our inter- line service staff; an additional 6,500 nurses — national competitiveness. Throwing money at representing 21% of the increase in staff numbers problems exclusively will not resolve those prob- — with further additional staffing increases in the lems either in the short term or on a sustainable provision of therapists, dentistry and orthodontic basis. Targeted resources and reform in service services, medical professionals and social care delivery with everyone working for shared objec- professionals. tives and placing a quality service to our citizens There has been a concomitant increase in ser- at the centre of our concerns is the best guarantee vice delivery with an increase of 30% since 1997 of an improvement for all. We also have to strike in the number of patients treated in hospitals as a necessary balance between allocating additional inpatients and day care patients and a reduction resources to priority needs while continuing to in waiting lists, with 80% of patients now waiting promote sustainable economic growth and avoid- less that one year — a development on which we ing inflationary pressures. will improve further. There has also been an In the current year, public expenditure is increase in the elective surgery rate in public expected to grow by 7.5%. This compares with a hospitals of 85% between 1995 and 2002. Fur- projected economic growth rate of 5% and an thermore, there is a marked improvement in the annual inflation rate of 2.2%. Overall, there is a wide range of community services provided by forecast saving of \150 million on gross spending the health services throughout the country. 1307 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1308

[Mr. Cowen.] for people with intellectual disabilities and almost The gross education and science allocation will 3,000 new day places have been provided. increase by \530 million, or 8%, to \7.1 billion in When the Disability Bill was published, the 2005. The cumulative increase in gross expendi- Government committed itself to the introduction ture on education during the period 1997 to 2005 of a multi-annual investment programme for high will amount to \3.9 billion. This represents a rise priority disability support services which would of 218% over the period. Again, this has resulted involve both capital and current spending. In the in significant improvements in services. Since budget I will announce details of the additional 1997, there has been a significant increase in the current expenditure which the Government will number of teachers employed in our primary and provide in the years 2006 to 2009 for high priority secondary schools. The provision of educational disability support services. I will also include an services for children with special educational additional capital allocation for disability services needs has been transformed since the Govern- as part of a revised multi-annual capital envelope ment entered office. From a base of 400 in 1999, for 2005 to 2009. there are now over 4,000 resource and learning Overseas development aid has also been support teachers. In addition, there are almost accorded a very high priority by the Government 6,000 special needs assistants employed in our since 1997. We are providing an additional \60 schools. The latter should be measured against a million, or a 15% increase, on the current year’s base of fewer than 300 such assistants in 1998. allocation for ODA. That will bring our contri- \ Capital investment in our schools has also been bution to some 535 million next year. This rep- transformed with the introduction of focused resents an increase of 240% since 1997 and it is a schemes to redress the historic under-investment remarkable achievement, particularly when one considers that the equivalent provision in 1997 in our schools. Initiatives such as the summer \ works scheme and the programme for the was only 158 million. development of small schools — known as the The gross provision for Exchequer funded public service pay and pensions is \15.3 billion, devolved scheme — have been introduced to \ ensure quicker delivery of improved schools. an increase of 1 billion, or 7%, on 2004. The As regards third level, the Government has increase makes full provision for the carryover of ensured that the programme for research and the first phase of Sustaining Progress, the pay- ment of the final tranche of benchmarking and technology in third level institutions has been the increases due in 2005 under the mid-term funded to provide a firm foundation for our review of Sustaining Progress. future economic success. This programme com- In budget 2003, in order to control public ser- plements the work of Science Foundation Ireland vice numbers, the Government decided to cap in the research and development area. numbers at the existing authorised level and to The gross allocation for social and family \ reduce numbers by 5,000 by the end of 2005. As affairs is 11.4 billion on a pre-budget basis. On part of our commitment to address priority areas budget day I will announce the provision for of service, we have subsequently agreed some increases in social welfare payment rates next adjustments to the figures for health, education year. Evidence of the Government’s commitment and the Garda in respect of frontline staff. Out- to the needy in society is that it has doubled side the health and education sectors, the spending on social welfare since entering office. numbers serving in 2004 indicate that this year’s In the same period, the unemployment rate has targets for a reduction in public service numbers fallen from over 10% to less than 5%. This rep- will be met. I emphasise that the Government resents a significant improvement in real terms in remains committed to the control of public ser- the level of social welfare provision. The pro- vice numbers, particularly in light of the size of vision of child benefit expenditure, which has the public service pay and pensions bill as a com- been identified as a key mechanism for reducing ponent of overall Government expenditure, and consistent poverty in Ireland, has been supported is determined that the full effect of the reduction significantly by the Government. Expenditure on in numbers will materialise in 2005 and 2006. \ child benefit has increased from under 500 mill- In last year’s budget, my predecessor, Deputy ion in 1996 to a pre-budget allocation of \1.8 McCreevy, announced the introduction of five- billion this year. year rolling multi-annual capital envelopes A particular priority for the Government is ser- designed to improve the efficiency and effective- vices for people with disabilities. The 2005 Esti- ness of the planning, management and implemen- mates provide over \2.8 billion for disability spec- tation of capital programmes and projects. As ific services. This represents an increase of \290 part of this initiative, Departments were permit- million, or 11%, on the 2004 provision, almost ted to carry forward to the next year capital sav- twice the general overall increase in expenditure, ings up to a maximum of 10% of voted capital. on a pre-budget basis, of 6%. During the period The facility will operate for the first time this since we re-entered office in 1997, \230 million year. in additional funding has been provided for the The carryover facility means that Departments maintenance and development of services to and implementing agencies do not have to surren- people with physical and sensory disabilities. Fur- der this money and it avoids the potential for thermore, an additional 1,700 residential places wasteful end of year expenditure inherent in an 1309 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1310 annual allocation system. The total amount of remarked that they show a lack of any obvious capital carryover from 2004 to 2005 is estimated effort at improving the standard of public service at close to \250 million, or 4.5% of this year’s and any root and branch reform of the public ser- voted capital allocation. vice as delivered to the consumer. Both the Mini- Turning to the capital provision for 2005, the ster and his predecessor have failed to make any 2005 pre-budget Exchequer capital allocation in genuine effort at reforming the critical public ser- the abridged Estimates volume is \5.7 billion. In vices of health, education and justice. The Mini- addition, Departments will have the \250 million ster stated in his opening remarks that throwing of carryover savings from 2004 available to spend money at problems will not resolve them. He is in 2005. When taking this into account, Depart- right and everybody in this House would agree ments will have, on a pre-budget basis, some \730 with that comment. However, in his remarks he million additional cash for capital spend or 14% made a great play on the fact that in the time the higher than in 2004. current Government has been in office, it has The 2004 budget envelope provided for total more than doubled public spending. The Minister capital investment in 2005 of \6.3 billion, com- cannot have it both ways. However, it is nothing prised of \5.715 billion Exchequer and \0.585 new for this Government to try to have its bread billion PPP funded by annual Exchequer pay- buttered on both sides. ments. The Exchequer figure included an unallo- The Minister outlined the 32,000 extra posi- cated reserve of \120 million. On budget day I tions that have been created in the health service. will announce a revised multi-annual capital He found no difficulty in stating that only 6,500 envelope for the period 2005-09 and in the pro- of these were new nursing positions. Where are cess will allocate the \120 million reserve in 2005. the other 75%? The vast majority consist of It is now clear that there will be a major short- administrative staff in the health boards. Con- fall on the 2005 PPP component of the existing sumers of the service in 1997 and those who are envelope. The new five-year envelope for 2005- still using it today would say the service has dis- 09 which I will be announcing on budget day will improved. Why has that happened during a take into account the cash already available to period when there has been such significant Departments in 2005, the PPP situation and the increase in public funding for the health service? overall budgetary situation. It will also include a Why has it happened that the health service multi-annual provision for disability services. workforce has increased by 50% yet the service The 2005 Estimates provide for an extra \2.5 has disimproved? How is it when one walks into billion bringing total planned expenditure on ser- an accident and emergency department in this vices to over \43.5 billion. By any standards this city or anywhere in the country, one would be represents a substantial commitment to spending lucky to get a seat in a waiting room let alone a on public services. I have emphasised to all minis- trolley in a corridor? However, money is being terial colleagues that we must continue to seek lashed at the service. To make the remark that better value for money in delivering public ser- throwing money at problems does not resolve vices. The taxpayer and citizen demand no less. them is something with which we all agree but Departments and offices must therefore intensify the Minister should put it into practice. His their efforts to prioritise spending and to continu- Department and other Ministers in the Govern- ally re-evaluate spending on existing pro- ment should also put it into practice. Deputy grammes, projects and services in order to ensure Cowen is a former Minister for Health and that available resources can be directed to the Children. areas of greatest need. While continuing to allo- The Minister spoke about the value and cate resources to priority social and economic importance of child benefit. Over the past two needs as resources permit, the Government will budgets since the Government was re-elected it seek to ensure that better value for money is has reneged on the commitment to increase child achieved from the increased expenditure. benefit. It has not done what was promised in An In summary, the 2005 Estimates allocate sig- Agreed Programme for Government and in the nificant provision for the key areas of health, edu- election manifestos. These Estimates are big on cation and infrastructure provision while retain- talk and low on delivery. ing a prudent approach to overall expenditure In 2005 there will be a total of 92 extra gardaı´ policy. In conjunction with the resources I will be on the streets despite all the waffle and hot air announcing on budget day, the Estimates focus from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law on the areas of concern to the people and will Reform about the 2,000 extra gardaı´ he promised promote economic and social development. I to deliver. The extra allocation of money to the believe they deserve the support of the House. general medical service will at best raise the number of persons under 70 with some access to Mr. J. Phelan: I welcome the Minister to the primary care from 23% to 28%. This is far short House. He has gone through the Estimates in of the position in 1997 when 31.5% of this group detail and I wish to deal with the allocations for qualified for the full medical card. Primary care the different Departments. I was struck by some will still remain a costly luxury for the low paid. of the Minister’s remarks. Those who have exam- The capacity problems in our hospitals are not ined these Estimates and those announced by his being confronted, with capital budgets down shar- predecessor over the past six or seven years have ply for a second year in a row. The often-repeated 1311 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1312

[Mr. J. Phelan.] level of public services provided in the acute commitment of the Taoiseach to deliver on our hospital and community care sectors. commitments in respect of overseas development Yet again the Government has resorted to aid has been abandoned and cast adrift. The increasing charges in the health area. The 25% Government’s capacity to deliver in the infras- increase in charges for private beds will ulti- tructural area is unravelling. For the second year mately be covered by higher health in a row there will be a real cut in the amount of 3 o’clock insurance premiums. Those without infrastructural investment. Last year the Govern- health insurance will face signifi- ment proved unable to spend almost \350 million cantly increased costs for hospital stays and of the budget assigned for critical infrastructure. patients with a high medication need will face a Those who hoped that the era of stealth taxes drugs bill of more than \1,000 per annum. was over will be disappointed by these Estimates. The Estimates show an increase in permitted The imposition of a substantial real cut in the total expenditure for local government of just 1% funds available to local authorities, will lead to . This will not cover inflation, let alone the substantial increases in commercial rates, possible increased wage bill local authorities face as a increases in development charges and other result of the benchmarking award which would charges by which local authorities will seek to necessitate an increase of 3%. The net result will gain revenue to make up the balance that has be higher charges to households, increased waste been lost in these Estimates. These Estimates do and development charges and higher levies. not mark a period of serious reform in the This so-called caring Government has shown approach to public spending. The same problems its true colours in its treatment of the disabled that have made budget day such a charade, per- and elderly. In 2003 the number of disabled per- sist. All the focus is on small changes in individual son’s grants approved was 6,153, at an average budgets rather than root and branch reform. cost of slightly below \6,100. In July this year The Estimates will bring the increase in current more than 11,000 persons had applied to local spending by this Government to \21,000 million authorities for the grant. If 10,000 of these appli- since 1997, as outlined by the Minister in his cations are approved at the same average cost as opening remarks. The only innovation in this in the previous year, the Minister for the Envir- year’s budget will be the announcements in onment, Heritage and Local Government, respect of capital spending projects. There is an Deputy Roche, will need to allocate \61 million, even further move away from the notion of an rather than the \52 million he has been allocated integrated infrastructural plan centred on the spa- in the Estimates. tial strategy, with projects selected on the grounds The paltry increase of 3% in funding for the of sound appraisal. Instead these capital projects task force on special housing aid for the elderly are now to be thrown around the Cabinet table is barely enough to cover inflation. The allocation in a horse trading exercise with Ministers jockey- of an extra \348,000 would only cover 116 grants ing to be the first to the local newspapers with the for the installation of central heating. I could happy announcement. This happened last year in name 116 people in County Kilkenny who should the Minister’s own constituency in the case of receive this grant, yet this allocation is proposed Deputy Parlon, his ministerial colleague. to cover the whole country. I wish to refer to specific Departments. The Taxpayers, the disabled and the elderly are all increase in health spending in the Estimates is victims of the new strategy of the Minister for just over \7,045 million. As outlined by the Mini- Finance. The former Minister, Deputy McCreevy, ster, much of this money will be spent on admin- may be a Commissioner but his thinking has not istration instead of on frontline delivery. The gone away. Government has failed to target resources to the Earlier, the House divided on the issue of over- people who are in real need. After seven years, seas development aid. Overseas aid is not an the Government has finally acknowledged that its abstract concept or simply a column in the Esti- own spin has been a lie. The Opposition has been mates but the most practical way in which people, consistently told that the reason over 100,000 through their Government, can assist those who medical cards were withdrawn and the promised need help most. More than 1.3 billion people glo- 200,000 medical cards were not delivered was bally live in severe poverty, 800 million do not because of the economic success of this country. get enough food and 500 million are chronically The Government has finally acknowledged that it malnourished. Of the 23 million people with has participated in denying access to primary care HIV-AIDS, more than 93% live in the to 230,000 people since it came into power. While developing world. It is shocking that over the past economic progress has been achieved, inflation in decade 2 million children have died in armed the area of medical care has been much steeper conflict. than any economic progress in that same period Ireland’s commitment to meet the target for of time. The Government seems to have finally overseas aid was made before the United Nations come around to the Opposition’s point of view four years ago and has been restated many times on this subject. Increased funding for the acute since, notably during the UN Secretary General’s hospital sector and the health boards will be recent visit to Dublin. This commitment has come largely spent on pay rises and benchmarking to nothing, however, in light of the statement by awards, resulting in few improvements in the the Minister for Finance that he has lowered his 1313 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1314 target for development aid to 0.5% of GDP, far tackled. The Minister for Education and Science below what was promised. He has not even indi- will have to set real targets to ensure that funding cated whether a new date has been set to achieve allocated in 2005 reaches those who need it most the target level of 0.7% of GDP or whether the and delivers tangible results. commitment has been shelved indefinitely. Once again, the bad deal brokered by the The marine area will also suffer as a result of Government with the religious orders is costing the Estimates. The Government has shown its the taxpayer dearly. Following the increase of indifference to the marine tourism sector by not \115 million in funding for the Residential Insti- allocating a cent in funding for the marine and tutions Redress Board this year, a further \50 natural resources tourism programme. While the million will be allocated under this subhead in Estimates indicate that \2 million has been allo- 2005. Despite everything we have heard from the cated to the sector — a cut of 30% — this money Minister in recent weeks about a major increase will not be spent as it is ring-fenced for four infa- in funding for education, the latter figure mous marina projects at Kenmare, Roundstone, accounts for one tenth of the overall increase in Rosses Point and Cahirciveen, which were given the Department’s budget for 2005. the green light without EU approval by the for- The Fine Gael Party is disappointed the OECD mer Minister for the Marine and Natural review on third level education policy was Resources, Deputy Fahey. The allocation is ignored in the Estimates. The results of the sharp unlikely to be spent because of the major diffi- funding cuts in funding for third level institutions culty created in Europe by the manner in which in 2003 and 2004 will not be reversed by the pal- the former Minister announced the four marina try increases signalled in the Estimates. projects in questions. They did not form part of a A close examination of the Estimates reveals \25 million EU approved programme to develop that the provision of an additional 2,000 gardaı´,as and transform coastal tourism in Ireland shelved repeatedly promised by the Minister for Justice, two years ago because of the economic climate at Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, is the time. With public finances showing an not even close to being delivered. The Minister improvement, surely the Estimates provided an reiterated this promise a couple of weeks ago but opportunity to dust off the scheme. The new there is nothing in the Estimates to indicate any Minister of State at the Department of Communi- significant move to recruit 2,000 extra gardaı´ is cations, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy likely. The meagre 5% increase in the allocation Gallagher, who has esponsibility for the marine, for Garda salaries is largely consumed by fell at the first hurdle due to his abject failure to inflation and existing pay agreements. The Mini- secure funding for this vital sector. ster’s claims of 2,000 gardaı´ are nothing more The Estimates show that the position with than a hollow promise. regard to the provision of adequate school build- The provision for Garda equipment has ings is deteriorating. Cuts are indicated in all div- increased by a paltry 2%. Taking inflation into isions of the schools building programme because account, this figure amounts to a decrease in real the Government has demonstrated in recent terms. Members will have heard stories of gardaı´ years that it cannot spend the moneys allocated using their personal mobile telephones rather for new buildings. In 2003 the underspend of the than the equipment provided by the Department. Department of Education and Science on school The 2% increase under this heading is clearly buildings amounted to more than \60 million, insufficient. The wages and overtime allocation while the equivalent figure this year will be \50 for the Prison Service has increased by a stagger- million. Given that children continue to be taught ing \37 million, despite the much-vaunted assault in damp and dilapidated conditions, in some cases on costs in this sector launched by the Minister without adequate toilet or physical education for Justice, Equality and Law Reform last year. facilities, it is a disgrace that the Government is I have significant problems with the Estimates, not sufficiently committed to spend the money as presented. How rich do we have to become allocated to provide proper school accom- before we leave a lasting improvement in public modation. services? I am not convinced the Estimates, as Where spending increases are indicated they published, will provide a solution. are welcome, particularly in the provision of assistants for children with special educational Dr. Mansergh: I look forward to seeing and needs. The Minister for Education and Science, reading the Fine Gael Party’s root and branch Deputy Hanafin, will be measured by what she reforms of public spending. It will be interesting achieves in tackling ongoing educational prob- to note the extent to which such reforms will be lems, rather than by how much she spends. agreed with other possible partners. As matters stand, the number of children fail- I warmly welcome the Minister and the Book ing to make the transition from primary to sec- of Estimates. The Estimates form part of a four ondary school is growing at an alarming rate, as stage process, the next stages of which are the is the drop-out rate at second level. No proper budget, followed by the Revised Book of Esti- system is in place to quantify whether the mates and, finally, the Finance Bill. We cannot schemes in place are meeting the needs of the usefully discuss the important area of capital disadvantaged. It is clear that the appalling rates spending today as it is mainly based on the 2005 of literacy difficulties in our schools are not being envelopes. In response to the previous contri- 1315 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1316

[Dr. Mansergh.] Mr. Bannon: The Senator can blame the media. bution, I have never known a year in which so much infrastructure, including a further section of Ms Feeney: Senator Bannon should listen to the M50, the Monasterevin and Cashel bypasses, Senator Mansergh. the Luas and so forth, has come on stream. These developments are making a major difference in Dr. Mansergh: One does not redistribute first terms of improving our infrastructure. We are in and regard wealth as a given or as something to a very strong economic position and the Esti- be considered afterwards. To be fair to the old mates are designed, as no doubt will the budget, Workers Party, it attached significant to consolidate so that we can move forward importance—— smoothly and steadily. The Minister’s most sig- nificant comments were to the effect that the Mr. Bannon: Why did the Senator not join it if speed with which a surplus turned to a deficit in he thought that? 2000 showed how important it is to be prudent and to manage public services at the top of an Dr. Mansergh: ——to economic policy even if economic cycle so that services are not totally dis- it was State enterprise-based. rupted and set back when the downturn comes The Minister makes a valid point that social and these tax revenues ebb. This has been a con- welfare has increased despite the drop in unem- stant theme since the Minister’s first interview on ployment from 10% in 1997 to 5%, which under- being appointed to the Finance portfolio. He has lines the substantial increase in resources. For example, since 1997, child benefit has increased emphasised the importance of stability. \ \ As an approximate benchmark, growth plus from 500 million to 1.8 billion. The Minister inflation produces spending power which in this also referred to the extra spending on health and case is 6%, pre-budget. Our resourcesare disability. I will not comment on the disability increasing by double digit figures and what is pro- issue because the budget will deal more fully with vided in the Estimates could not possibly satisfy that. The increase was not simply an extra 6,500 all needs. Trying to go faster than a certain pace nurses in frontline staff, the Minister also men- creates inflationary pressures and less value for tioned extra therapists, dentists, orthodontic ser- money. One must adopt a steady approach. vices, medical and social workers and so on. It is There has been much debate recently about the too easy to say they have all gone into redun- ideological colouring of the Government and the dant administration. Taoiseach. Any Government that achieves near Another fallacy being put about is that there is full employment; the end of emigration; intro- a real cut in the health services because medical duces a minimum wage; by and large has profit- inflation is 10% and the increase is only 9%, ergo able State companies with one or two exceptions; there is a cut. Medical inflation is in the cost of has the lowest impact of tax on the lower paid drugs, which is quite a small element in health anywhere in the European Union; is overseeing a spending. It does not apply to nurses. One hears steady improvement in services; and has coffers critical comments about benchmarking but how overflowing with capital and corporation can we recruit the nurses we need unless they are taxes—— at least as well paid as at present, and possibly somewhat better? I welcome the medical card initiative. It is a step and although it does not Mr. Bannon: The Senator can dream on. necessarily go the whole way it may reduce press- ures in accident and emergency departments. At Dr. Mansergh: Any socialist would be proud least it relieves people of the cost of consulting a of that. doctor about their problems. The school building investment programme is Mr. J. Phelan: I thought the Senator was a very important and valuable. It has not all been socialist. spent. In response to the argument that we need value for money, that means money is not spent Dr. Mansergh: Those things have not always immediately because one must see that it is put been achieved by socialist methods. For example, right. The heads of the universities may be jump- the cutting of capital gains tax from 40% to ing the gun somewhat. Reading between the lines 20%—— I understand that the matter of concern to them may be dealt with further in the budget. Mr. Bannon: We will see the conversion of There is, very properly, a large jump in funding sinners. for science research and development. Arts and sports have done exceptionally well again, with a Dr. Mansergh: ——goes completely against the 17% increase in arts funding and a 19% increase grain of a certain type of thinking although it in the amount available for the Arts Council. produces far more revenue. The philosophy behind such thinking is that if it does not hurt it Mr. J. Phelan: That follows a major cut in fund- does not work and if the pips do not squeak that ing for the arts last year. is not good enough. The Taoiseach’s basic point which the media did not pick up well, is that one Dr. Mansergh: Those are very real achieve- creates wealth first and then redistributes it. ments. The sports programme is of great benefit 1317 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1318 all around the country including Senator John substantial real increase in inflation in ODA Paul Phelan’s constituency. I am glad to see spending, but it will be very difficult to achieve increased funding for the RAPID programme an increase in such spending as a percentage of and for community employment. GNP. Deputy Burton had this difficulty between 1995-97. The Government has not abandoned its Mr. Bannon: The Senator is getting carried pledge to commit 0.7% of GNP to overseas away development aid. I hope that we will achieve this as soon as practicable. If it is at all possible in Dr. Mansergh: If the Senator looked a little light of the budgetary figures, I appeal to the more closely at the Book of Estimates he would Minister to do a little bit more next year. I am see that income for local government is up 5% glad we are back to a three-year allocation, as the not 1%. development assistance committee of the OECD One will not find the cost of 2,000 fully recommended. employed gardaı´ in the Book of Estimates. Some I look forward to the budget, the Finance Bill of them are coming into training. I have no doubt and the rest of the budgetary process, all of which about the Government’s determination to raise will help strengthen our economy and push it the number of gardaı´ to 14,000. forward.

Mr. J. Phelan: That is rubbish. Mr. Quinn: I welcome the Minister to the House. I envy him as well, as all former Ministers Dr. Mansergh: I do not know how many extra for Finance must given that he is \2 billion better ´ gardaı were brought in when the Senator’s party off than last year. I take his point that \670 mill- was last in government, which was rather a long ion of that is a one-off that should not otherwise time ago. be used. It is also fair to say that he is the envy of every finance Minister in Europe and our role Mr. J. Phelan: The Government must build the today is to steer the use of these finances in the building first. It does not even have the building correct direction. It was interesting to read the in which to train them. supplement on Ireland published last month by Dr. Mansergh: A ministerial statement said The Economist which mentioned the luck of the that to put the scale of activity in the housing Irish. I suggest that luck has nothing to do with market in perspective, almost one third of the it. The figures given show that GDP per person country’s housing stock will have been built in the rose from 69% of the EU average in 1987 to ten year period 1997 to 2004. My only criticism of 136% today. This shows that a great achievement that statement is that 1997 to 2004 is not ten years has occurred. We have also done well in the case but local authority housing is up by 10%. of GNP. It seems that we have succeeded by hav- I am strongly committed to overseas develop- ing a very steady hand on the tiller, in bad times ment aid funding, as no doubt is the Minister. and in good. This happens to be one of the good That is to increase by \60 million and then by two times, so let us make sure that the steady hand further tranches of \65 million. It has been an remains and that we use it to invest in the future ongoing problem to meet the target for overseas rather than overcome immediate problems. development aid funding, especially in periods of There is something fundamentally unrealistic high growth. In his autobiography Garret about this annual song and dance we go through FitzGerald refers to his introduction of the bilat- about the Book of Estimates. The discussion eral aid programme adding that in 1973 the tends to fall into two categories. One is to com- Government decided to raise overseas develop- pare what a particular Vote got this year with ment aid by 0.05% per year. He then explains what it got last year. Success in this area is judged that unfortunately because of various economic by how big an increase a particular spending area circumstances it was not possible to do that. I managed to squeeze out of the Department of then looked at facts about Ireland in 1995 when Finance. The other is to compare the different Deputy Burton had responsibility for overseas areas of spending and pit them against each other development aid. The official book published by in a race to see which arm of Government gets to the Department of Foreign Affairs at the time spend the most. That is the way it has always stated that total expenditure in 1995 was expected been, but I suggest that we must change. This to amount to IR£89 million, approximately \114 issue gets the most attention and consumes the million. Next year it will reach \535 million, largest amount of newsprint and air time because which is a four-fold increase in real terms. It is it sets all the people with particular special true that Ireland, along with 21 of the 24 OECD interests in a great struggle against each other. countries, has not yet fulfilled the 0.7% pledge. This struggle keeps the mandarins in Merrion All Governments have been over-optimistic Street very happy, because as long as people are about how quickly this can be done. We are in a fighting each other for a share of resources they double bind because if the economy goes flat do not have time to address more fundamental there is much pressure on resources and it is diffi- questions. cult to increase the aid, even though it would be The kind of question that gets ignored in this easy to do so in terms of GNP. When the econ- annual struggle is the issue of value for money. omy is growing by 5% to 10% there will be a The Minister mentions value for money twice in 1319 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1320

[Mr. Quinn.] of our national income through taxation and his 14 page speech and I am glad he did so. spend it on better services, the political reality is However, in deciding how much a particular Vote that this is simply not on. Senator Mansergh has is to get, the system never asks if the public get already stated that we have shown that a lower value for this spending. Will we get a better tax rate actually increases the amount of tax return on our money if we spend it on this rather raised and the amount of money available to us. than on that? Instead of questions like that, we No political party that seriously wants to get into hop up and ask questions like the one I am about office would dare suggest we turn our backs on to ask. How can we be serious about making the low-tax society we have created in this coun- Ireland a leader in the knowledge society if we try over the past decade. As we look into the do not fund our universities properly? future, this puts a serious constraint on the money In the past two years, the Book of Estimates we have available to spend. has seen cuts in the amounts made available for The returns from our economic growth will third-level education. There is provision for some create more resources in the form of taxation. We increase this year, but not enough to repair the should recognise, however, that there is a limit damage that has been done. It is certainly not to that growth. There is no serious possibility of enough to provide the quantum leap in third-level greatly increasing the amount of money available funding called for in the recent OECD report. for expenditure because it is unlikely that any That report very effectively called our bluff. It Government in the foreseeable future will be able stated that if we want to be world class, we must to find a solution. Raising taxes does not appear put our money where our mouth is, which means to offer such a solution. Our dilemma is that we much more money than is being made available are not doing the job we want to do adequately now. — we have heard already today from some of the I can do special pleading as well as anybody many people who are screaming for more else, but I also want to focus on a basic challenge resources — and the total amount of funding we face in running this country. Where is the which is available is increasing only at a modest money going to come from to pay for all that we rate. What can we do? If we want to come to want to do? In this vast sum of \38 billion pro- grips with the challenges that face us, we need to vided in the Book of Estimates, we can see that find ways of spending our money better. It is as the three big areas of Government day-to-day simple as that — there is no alternative. spending are in health, education and social wel- I have previously spoken in the House about fare of one kind or another. Each of those areas the crazy way we spend money in trying to run gobbles up a sizeable fraction of that \38 billion. this country. We can talk about spending \38 However, what those areas share, apart from the billion a year without seriously considering the fact that they cost a lot, is that each of them is concept of value for money. The Minister failing to do the job we expect and need it to do. referred to it twice in his speech, but when the No one can argue that our health services are fight for resources starts, the Department of Fin- satisfactory or that our health system provides for ance says “No” all the time. Those who wish to all our citizens in a fair and equitable manner. squeeze money out of the Department shout No one can argue that our education system is loudly and use as much political clout as they can. appropriate to our needs. Quite apart from the It happens in this House and in the Da´il. As a need to resource third-level education properly, consequence, money is allocated not on the basis there are major gaps in the provision at all levels of where it will be of most benefit or provide the of the system. Too many of our children suffer greatest return on taxpayers’ investment, but on educational disadvantage and have their potential the basis of political considerations which do not in life restricted as a result. Too many of our chil- relate to value for money. There is no follow-up dren go to rat-infested primary schools where the after we have spent the money, which is even roofs are falling in. Too many children, at both worse. If something fails, that is seen as a reason primary and secondary level, do not receive the to throw more money at it. kind of individual attention that will bring out the There is no systematic effort to measure the best of their abilities. Nobody can argue that we results of the money we spend. There is no system have eliminated poverty in this affluent country. in the public service to ensure we get better and Not only have we failed to do that; we have actu- better value for each euro the taxpayer invests in ally widened the gap between the haves and the running the country. I suggest that the money is have-nots. Whenever the time comes to tighten forgotten about after it has been allocated. Busi- the belt, it is always the have-nots who are nesses assess the cost of achieving certain goals squeezed the most. and objectives and decide whether to pursue We are not doing a good enough job in these them on the basis of whether they represent good three big spending areas. The obvious response is value for money. We have heard in recent days to say that each needs more money, but before of instances in which money which was allocated we do that, let us consider the reality that faces was forgotten and not spent at all. If we continue us. Over the past decade, we have moved to a to run the country in such a spendthrift way, we low-tax society and have reaped the benefits of will not achieve the great things we want to do. that approach. However much we might argue on If we stop the annual Book of Estimates charade a philosophical plane that we should raise more and turn our attention to getting better value for 1321 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1322 what we spend, however, we will have taken a been to avoid large-scale borrowing and increases step in the right direction. in taxes. I congratulate the Minister for Finance on the I agree with the Minister that excessive public steps he has taken so far, but I would like him to spending could add to the inflationary pressures devote his attention to a different way of doing on our buoyant economy. It could place upward things in the future. I ask him to concentrate on pressure on wage demands and erode Ireland’s value for money, in particular. I thank the Mini- competitiveness in global markets. The Minister ster for staying in the House to hear my con- is right to suggest that growth in public spending tribution. should be correlated with revenue growth if it is to remain at a sustainable level in the medium Mr. Minihan: I welcome the Minister of State, term and that any temptation to do otherwise Deputy de Valera, to the House and thank her must be resisted. Full employment was a prize for her attendance. We have faced a challenging worth fighting for and is a prize worth defending, set of economic circumstances since the 2002 gen- but if we want to defend it we will have to keep eral election. I am delighted that it has been pre- taxes down. We know that the low-tax formula dicted that economic growth will be approxi- works so we should retain it. mately 5% in 2004. We are experiencing an It is imperative that the Government should economic upturn at present, but it would be invest in the economy. For example, it needs to unwise to think we will return in the short term invest in key infrastructural projects which are to the high growth rates we enjoyed before 2001. essential if we want to keep the country moving The Government should be congratulated on ste- and ensure that it stays competitive inter- ering the country through the downturn of recent nationally. We have set about correcting our years in a prudent and pragmatic manner. infrastructural deficit. Eight decades after inde- Many major international considerations have pendence, there is no proper road running between Dublin and Cork, our two major cities a direct effect on our economy. The American and economic centres. Our transport infrastruc- boom has slowed markedly, the German econ- ture is literally kilometres behind the rest of the omy, which is the largest in the euro zone, is European Union. We are making progress, almost stagnant and there is hesitancy in inter- however; record sums of money are being national markets. The climate of uncertainty has invested in the National Roads Authority, which been exacerbated by the conflict in Iraq. When is responding to the challenge. one considers the increase in oil prices, the fall in There will be a transformation of the national the dollar and the uncertainty in the US econ- roads system over the next three years. The omy, it is possible that there could be a slowdown motorway link between Dublin and Dundalk has in 2005. The impact of recent events on Ireland been completed and the motorway project is clear — the pace of economic growth has mod- between Kilcock and Kinnegad, which is a vital erated. In that context, the figures announced in part of the link between Dublin and Galway, will the Estimates are welcome. be open in two years. There is a continuous The Government’s prudent management of the stretch of motorway and dual carriageway public finances has ensured that the economy has between Dublin and Portlaoise, following the continued to support economic growth, promote completion of the Kildare and Monasterevin employment and generate the necessary tax rev- bypasses. The Cashel bypass has been finished. enues for key social and economic public services. Such impressive achievements will bring badly The Progressive Democrats Party has played a needed relief to road users throughout the coun- key role in the formulation of economic policy try and improve significantly the quality of life of since it returned to Government in 1997. I do not those living in the towns which are being think anybody denies that its policies have bypassed. We need to maintain the pace of worked. The policies have brought the country investment, for example by continuing to invest from mass unemployment to full employment, in the national roads programme, if we are to pro- virtually eliminated long-term unemployment vide the kind of transport system this country and ended the curse of emigration, which was a needs. blight on this country for many years. Public investment is also needed in other areas, I would like to reiterate what Ireland’s econ- such as hospitals, schools and railways. Invest- omic priorities should be in the next four years. ment costs money, which has to be prioritised, but The first requirement — to secure and preserve long-term investment should not fall foul of prosperity — has been achieved. It took us a long short-term pressures. The Progressive Democrats time to get the monkey of unemployment off our Party has always favoured prudent borrowing to backs and it would be a tragedy if we allowed it fund capital spending. It would be foolish to to return. It took a great deal of effort to put in reduce investment now, only to find when econ- place this country’s pro-employment tax system. omic buoyancy returns that our congestion and Our key objective must be to retain that system, public facilities are even worse than before. Pru- in the face of the temptation to raise personal dent borrowing for public investment makes emi- taxes. I welcome the Minister’s declaration that a nent sense. It is what the Irish economy requires key part of the Government’s successful manage- now because it smoothes the economic cycle and ment of the public finances and the economy has helps to avoid boom-bust economics. 1323 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1324

[Mr. Minihan.] Ta´naiste’s announcements in that regard, in I welcome the publication of the Book of Esti- which she has clearly set out a targeted and mates, which provides for public spending next focused programme that will be the start of year of over \43.5 billion, money that has resulted delivering these reforms. from the hard work of the Irish people. The Those who express opposition to the proposals Government’s first job is to manage and invest based on their own vested interest and short-term public money wisely on behalf of all citizens, gain do not have the long-term interests of the which involves delivering the public services they people of this country at heart. Credible oppo- expect. It means getting value for public money sition to this point of view should be expressed and spending it within a sustainable social and with credible alternatives; to date I have seen economic strategy. With these Estimates, the none. I congratulate the Minister for Finance, Government has set priorities with limited and Deputy Cowen, on the Book of Estimates and precious public resources. Public spending is congratulate his predecessor on his management being increased at a moderate rate that will not of the Irish economy over the past few years. I put a strain on jobs or the economy. Steady pro- am confident that in these Estimates the Minister gress is being maintained within the limits for our has shown his commitment to ensuring that the economy. There is no exaggerated spending and decisions now being made are in the overall no exaggerated curtailment in spending. interest of the Irish people in the short, medium To grow public spending in line with our econ- and long term and must be viewed as such. omic ability to pay puts the focus on the policies to achieve our economic potential. The Govern- Mr. McDowell: I believe that Senator ment has shown in recent years that economic Mansergh mentioned in his contribution the performance is the engine of social justice, public renewed debate of recent weeks about the ideo- resources and sustainable public services. The logical colouring of the Government or, more Government will continue to give priority to poli- specifically, the Taoiseach. He is right, since there cies and actions that maximise our economic is no doubt that there has been something of a growth potential, including investment, compe- change in the mood music surrounding the tition and low taxes. Government in the past three or four weeks. The I note in the Estimates that the Government Taoiseach has rediscovered his socialist roots, has prioritised investment in our social and econ- something he does periodically. Of course, we omic future in the areas of health, education, per- must look a little more carefully at the numbers sons with disability and infrastructure. I welcome before us today and what the Minister for Fin- the increase of \530 million, or 8%, in education, ance, Deputy Cowen, has been saying, to see bringing total spending to \7.1 billion. When one whether there is any reality in it. The truth is that looks at gross expenditure on education from there is not. 1997 to 2005, one sees an increase of \3.9 billion, These Estimates are particularly conservative. or 218%, over the period. I also welcome the fact Senator Mansergh is right in his assessment of that the Government has ensured that the pro- what we have to spend, which is roughly growth gramme for research and technology in third level plus inflation, bringing us to about 7.5% or 8%. institutions, or PRTLI, has been funded. That The Estimates, which are not the final numbers, investment is key to our future development as a provide for increases of 6% in spending, a fairly knowledge-based economy by providing the conservative figure by any standards. The Mini- necessary graduates and postgraduates to com- ster’s contribution today has been reflected in plement the many initiatives and programmes everything that he said, including, I gather, in the delivered by Science Foundation Ireland. That course of his press conference where he intro- will deliver long-term rewards for the people of duced the Estimates. It has all been standard this country. departmental fare and is fairly conservative, Health spending will increase by \915 million, being all about prudent fiscal policy and the usual or 9%, to just under \11 billion. The cumulative matters of which we hear from the Department. increase in gross expenditure on health from 1997 I do not blame the staff, since I would probably to 2005 will amount to 205%, representing an write the same thing if I worked there. My point extra \7.4 billion. No other European country has is that there is no suggestion of a departure, a increased health spending at that rate. In France, change, increased spending or changed priorities. for example, the Government stated that there It is a case of “Steady as you go, lads”, with no were “particularly steep increases” in health significant change in policy, good bad or indiffer- spending in 2002 and 2003 of 4% at constant ent, since the days of the Minister’s predecessor, prices. Deputy McCreevy. The Government is making the investment. It One of the real problems has been that the has brought forward the reform package, and Department always writes the same script. It talks now is the time for action and results. I am confi- about prudent fiscal management regardless of dent the Government is absolutely determined to whether it is spending 20% or 3% more. One has implement the health reforms that put patients to examine the numbers to divine what the reality first. It will be a step-by-step approach, beginning underpinning them is. I will cut to the bottom now and continuing over the coming years, line. Senator Minihan rightly said that those of us backed by sustained political will. I welcome the in the Opposition must say what the alternative 1325 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1326 is: I believe that we can spend more this year. I 29 September 1998, when she announced the will put that into some sort of historical context. accelerated implementation of integrated tick- In the few years after the last general election we eted in Dublin. A few months later she went on an extraordinary splurge that we should announced that she had detailed plans to do it never repeat. The Government has probably cut using smart cards and expected to have it in place back a little more than necessary in the past two in 2001. Thereafter it seems that the Government years, though in broad outline I would not dis- set up a committee to examine in detail how it agree too much with what has been done since should be done and decided that it should happen the general election, notwithstanding the fact that in 2002. When that year came, it announced that it completely contradicted what the Government it would probably be done by the end of 2004. said it would do. I accept that it has done a The important point here is that some of the reasonable job of managing our way out of the announcements were matched with money or downturn. announcements of money that would be set aside. We must now examine the present position and Others announcements made on publication of what fiscal policy should be for the next two or the Book of Estimates are not matched by fund- three years. The bottom line is that these ing — integrated ticketing, for example, has not numbers are quite good. We are currently in a been introduced. While this is a minor issue, there fairly healthy state. Growth of 5% at this point are many others. The Minister announced accel- in the economic cycle is very good and affords erated development of QBCs to complete all 12 opportunities. It is appropriate for those in the promised in the Dublin Transportation Office Opposition to say that we should consider spend- study in 1998. There are nine currently and ing a little more. It would be reasonable for us to another five are promised. There was supposed aim for an 8%, 9% or perhaps even 10% increase to have been 12 by the end of 1998 but it was in spending this year. That would increase the announced last week that five more will be added overall GNP share of spending by 1% or 2% — to the nine in operation. perhaps slightly less. It is not too ambitious, and One wonders what is happening. A total of I do not advocate the 20% splurges of 2001. It is 3,000 park and ride spaces were promised in 1998. a minor but nonetheless significant increase I would be surprised if a tenth of that number has above that suggested by the current Government. been provided but funding is still being The numbers are very difficult for anyone to announced for additional spaces, notwithstanding comprehend; one looks at them and wonders that the tax break provided in this regard has gen- what on earth they mean. The first recourse for erated no additional spaces. The Government someone such as me is to look at the departmen- made a definitive announcement in 2000 that a tal statements, which at least give one some sort metro would be built and this was followed by of notion as to exactly what lies behind them. I a procurement process that went nowhere. The spent this morning examining the websites of var- former Minister for Transport, Senator ious Departments to see what they say we will get O’Rourke, even announced four or five years ago as a result of the spending increases in the Book that Aer Lingus would be floated but we know of Estimates. The Department of Finance was a what happened to that decision. particularly interesting case. I was half hoping Are we being taken for a ride? Wonderful that the Leader would be here, since I have got a statements are made every year on the publi- few nice quotes from her a few years ago. I exam- cation of the Book of Estimates, which contains ined the statement of the Minister for Transport, grand plans, for example, in this case to improve Deputy Cullen, last week, when he detailed how public transport but if one reviews them shortly the increase would be spent in his Department. afterwards, most of the plans are not The first detailed matter that he mentions is \9 implemented. A few buses and DART carriages million in 2005 to deliver integrated ticketing, an have been provided. I live on the DART line and issue to which I will return presently. He goes on use it occasionally. Platform extensions and to talk about new roads, more rail carriages, resignalling projects for the DART have been increased capacity on the DART, park and ride, announced annually since 1997 but trains are not five new QBCs for Dublin, and a few other running at weekends currently and the projects matters. have not been completed, yet more money will I mention that in detail because anyone who be provided next year. People are entitled to be has been reading such statements, whether for a little sceptical when they read departmental three years or nine, will think that it sounds fairly statements at this time of year announcing grand familiar — and it is. Virtually all those matters old plans. have been announced before, some several times While the announcements indicate a lack of before. Some that sounded fairly simple have competence in delivery, they also reflect a failure been flogged to death in an almost embarrassing in the political system in that we do not pick up fashion. I researched integrated ticketing, the first on this. Ministers should be required when they matter of expenditure appearing on the list of seek money for a project in a given year to come things to do issued by the Minister for Transport, to the House and outline what they did with the Deputy Cullen. I found on the Department’s funding approved in the current year. Our system website a statement made by the former Minister does not allow us to do so. Former Ministers, responsible for transport, Senator O’Rourke, on would-be Ministers, all Senators and most civil 1327 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1328

[Mr. McDowell.] A statement of where the Government wants servants agree the system should be changed but to be is needed. Is it intended to extend the pro- that will never happen because it suits the incum- posed GP card scheme to others? Is this a step bent. However, the system of planning and towards awarding the 200,000 medical cards, as overseeing expenditure is rendered a complete promised two years ago, or will it result in the nonsense as a result. permanent institutionalisation of a four-tier I am interested in the Ta´naiste and Minister for system? Health and Children’s proposal regarding general There is a consensus in both Houses on the practitioner cards. It represents progress but I am overseas development aid commitment, which not sure where it is going and it depends on was not a normal commitment. The Taoiseach whether one is looking at half full bottles or half made a solemn commitment to the international empty bottles. It is progress in so far as 200,000 community at an international forum four years people will have free access to primary care but ago, not only on behalf of the Government but they will not have access to the free drugs to also the people. The former Minister of State at which they are entitled under the medical card the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy scheme. The Government is resiling from its com- O’Donnell, is correct that the ODA commitment mitment but this represents progress in some is our foreign policy and represents our inter- direction. vention in Africa. Ireland cannot do anything by However, the proposal creates a problem in force or through political pressure because it does that it will lead to a four-tier health system. not have the clout. Our statement of what we Absurdly, it is easy to say that in the House believe and how we want to operate our foreign because every Member has private health policy is the ODA commitment. It is a disgrace insurance but the 50% of the population that that the Government has rowed back on it, not does not will be split into three distinct categories least because the extra mile involved would not — those who have medical cards, those who have have cost a significant amount. It is a great pity GP cards and those who have no cover. One will that, for the sake of an extra \150 million over pay for GP services, drugs, overnight stays in three years, Ireland is resiling from an inter- hospitals or consultants’ services depending on national commitment, of which most Members the category into which one falls. The system has are proud. It is regrettable that we find ourselves become incoherent, largely because the Govern- in this position. ment does not know what system it wants. We have choices to make and the social The Ta´naiste, on her first outing in the House, insurance fund must be examined in this context. stated the State should have a welfare role, pick- The fund was in serious deficit for many decades ing up the tab for those who cannot afford to pay. but it has been in surplus for the past three or That is a distinct ideological view, which I respect four years and it currently has a surplus of almost but with which I disagree. The State’s role in the \2 billion. Given that approximately 1.8 million provision of health services, for example, primary people are in employment, we have an oppor- care, should be to provide a good quality univer- tunity to re-examine the operation of the fund. sal service, perhaps not entirely free, at the point We should move to the notion of statutory of delivery. entitlements and a more transparent system to However, the health system is an extraordinary operate the fund should be put in place. Trustees, hybrid under which certain sections of the popu- drawn from the social partners, should be lation have different entitlements. This causes appointed to advise, though not control, the fund. problems at the margins in terms of entitlement Work also needs to be done on how pay- with potential employment effects and it creates related social insurance is charged because the inequities. In addition, institutional pressures are current system is an unmitigated mess involving being created between different people which is exemptions, thresholds and ceilings with the evidenced by the competition for public beds result that few people know the rate. In addition, between private and public patients. The Govern- a health levy is also collected, which is totally ment has provided in the Book of Estimates for inequitable because it is not related to income an increase in the charge for the use of public and is levied at a flat rate on all income above a beds by private patients. certain threshold. There is a need and an oppor- It is interesting to examine the philosophy tunity to re-examine the fund in terms of how it underpinning that proposal. On the one hand, is levied and managed and I hope the Minister officials from the Department of Health and Chil- will do so over the next while. dren inform us, usually in private, that the intro- I refer to capital spending. Senator Minihan duction of a charge is intended to reclaim public stated the Progressive Democrats have never beds from private patients but, on the other, they objected to the notion of borrowing for pro- do not want to do so because what is referred to ductive investment but the former Minister for as a “health crisis” is not a crisis for people with Finance, Deputy McCreevy, made it clear that he insurance. The last thing they want to do is intro- thought any such reference would mean a return duce a waiting list for those who are insured to the bad old days of the 1970s and 1980s when, because there would be genuine problems within typically, the Labour Party and Fine Gael could the service in the form of political pressure on be blamed for borrowing money and getting the the Government. State into major debt. I thought the Progressive 1329 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1330

Democrats agreed with that but we must consider Mr. Kenneally: I welcome the opportunity to whether money is being spent well and there is contribute to the debate on the Estimates. I wel- evidence to the contrary. It is surprising that we come the Minister of State, Deputy de Valera, to were not able to spend the full allocation this year the House. The Estimates have become far more and that there is a \250 million run-on to next important than in the past. I have been a Member year, notwithstanding the fact that some projects of the Oireachtas since 1989. For a long period, finished early. I am not sure how it balances out. even though we had the Estimates and the Fin- I assume the moneys for Monasterevin, for ance Act, everybody watched out for the budget. example, would have been budgeted for next year Over the years the Estimates have become more rather than this year. Therefore, they have been important, as we can see from the attention paid paid out of the allocation early. This clear failure to them over the past week, which is probably to spend money is a bit worrying notwithstanding deserved. that we have improved delivery of roads projects To a large extent the budget deals with per- than five years ago. sonal matters, for example, social welfare We must also consider whether the 5% allo- increases and personal taxation. However, the cation is sufficient. We are not making progress Estimates are more a mark of the direction the quickly enough on many capital projects, whether economy is taking and how we are managing it. roads, broadband or the capital pro- It is right that they get a greater priority than they 4 o’clock ject needed to invest in the health did in the past. service. We need to spend more if we I compliment the Minister on keeping expendi- can afford it. The 5% is a reasonable benchmark ture increases at 6%. I am not one of those who if we do not have more but we have more and agree with the tax and spend philosophy. I should spend it. However, we should not spend it neither believe in absurdly low taxation nor a if we do not have the mechanisms and ways to high tax regime. We almost have it right. Tax- spend it and cannot ensure we get what Senator ation aimed at bringing in extra revenue in order Quinn referred to as value for money. to increase spending is always highly inflationary. I have not done enough study on PPPs to be This has caused us problems in the past and is not sure and confident of the reality of the story. the right way to go. The Minister has got it just However, the failure to attract private money into about right. large infrastructural projects is worrying. I know I never worry about capital expenditure. I there are pressures and that it is easy for financial worry when we run away with ourselves on cur- institutions buying through private investors to rent expenditure but not so much with regard to stand back and put pressure on Government by capital expenditure because it has no long-term not coming across with funds. There is evidence implications. Capital expenditure is an invest- they have been able to put pressure on Govern- ment in our future and there is scope for further ment by saying they are not getting a sufficient investment as the Minister has \120 million of an cut of the action. I do not suggest the Department unallocated reserve, the spending of which he will or Government should rush to meet all the announce in the budget. I hope he will announce demands of financial institutions because their it because I have no concern about spending in only interest is the profit they make in the long that area. or short term. It is nonetheless worrying that we I notice there is a capital carryover of \250 have not managed to come remotely close to million from last year. This is a welcome inno- meeting the targets. vation. Previously, any unspent moneys at the PPPs are not appropriate for everything. I have end of the year were returned to the Department always had doubts that they are appropriate for of Finance. In many areas, because Departments educational projects and certainly doubt they are knew this would happen they rushed and spent appropriate for health projects. However, I have the money rather than return it. Sometimes it was no problems with them in terms of major infras- not spent wisely. The carryover gives some tructural projects, in particular those where user breathing space and should be of benefit. charges can reasonably be imposed, for example, I will make a few brief comments on the Esti- roads and public transport. The issue is worthy of mates with reference to communications, the debate. It is worrying that we have not succeeded marine and natural resources, my area of in doing better in terms of attracting private responsibility. I am glad to see an increase of 22% money into the many decent projects around. in the Estimates for coastguard and maritime There has been little enough economic oppor- safety. I welcome this emphasis on safety. As an tunity since the last general election, but we are island nation we have had too many tragedies. coming once again to a time of opportunity. It Anything that can be done to heighten safety is appropriate that we use this opportunity in a awareness, to provide grants for safety appliances managed and reasonable way. We do not need a on vessels or to beef up the emergency services splurge or a spree. However, we need a managed can only be good. increase and improvement in the amount of The capital funding for fisheries harbours is money we spend on public services. I hope the down slightly but this does not unduly worry me. Minister will take the opportunity to do that. It can happen that some big project finishes Frankly, I see little evidence from the Estimates before another is ready to get going. There will he has introduced that he wants to do it. always be peaks and troughs in this area. I hope 1331 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1332

[Mr. Kenneally.] Significant increases have been made to the old the considerable sum of \19 million provided in age pension. We fulfilled all the commitments we the budget sees the start of the development of made in the past, such as the pledge to raise the the almost completely new harbour in Dunmore old age pension to £100 per week. The Govern- East. I hope some of that money will be spent ment has committed itself to raising it to \200 per towards the end of 2005 on that project and that week, which we will achieve and go beyond. That sufficient finance will be provided in 2006 to com- is only right. These people helped to build up the plete it. economy and I am pleased this caring Govern- It is not unexpected that a salmon buyout of ment is giving back far more than the minuscule drift net and draft net licences is not mentioned increases they got under previous regimes when in the Book of Estimates. This has not yet been Opposition parties were in Government. agreed and the Minister cannot provide for it Child benefit has quadrupled since the days until it happens. It is inevitable it will happen. when the Minister was a member of the Oppo- Approximately 70% of the drift net and draft net sition. This is an important payment which gener- fishermen are interested in proceeding this way. ally goes to the woman of the house and, in most They pay for licences each year but are getting instances, is applied in a proper way. no return on them. We are the last in Europe to I do not know what the Minister will do in allow this, so it is inevitable there will be a buy- regard to personal allowances in the budget but out. I hope the finances will be made available at the carer’s allowance must be significantly the appropriate time. increased. It was introduced at the time of indi- The spending for programmes on information vidualisation, of which I was never a great fan and communications technology is up by 13% to and I said so at the time. The main reason it was \36.6 million. This increase is to speed up the roll introduced was to try and get stay-at-home out of broadband. Unfortunately, we have been spouses back to work, which it has succeeded in playing catch up in this regard and are behind the doing. However, at present single income house- take up in some of the other developed countries. holds where one spouse is at home are finding it This is surprising as we have been ahead in all difficult. Two earners in a household take longer other technological areas. We are catching up and to get into the higher tax bracket than if there is I am glad the Minister is continuing to make fin- one earner. This matter needs to be looked at and ance available. it could be tackled through the carer’s allowance. The social welfare provisions show this is a car- To be consistent with what I said earlier, we ing Government, despite what others have said. should not tamper with the current income tax Over a period unemployment has fallen from rates of 20% and 42%. The lower rate should cer- 300,000 to 150,000. Despite this fall in unemploy- tainly not be amended, although there may be a ment, spending in the social welfare area has con- case for bringing the higher rate down from 42% tinually increased. Since Fianna Fa´il came into to 40%. Significant progress will have to be made office the unemployment rate has fallen from on income tax bands which have not been wid- 10% to 5%. However, spending on social welfare ened sufficiently in recent years. Many people are has doubled. The money has not been clawed getting into the higher tax bracket far too early back and returned to the general pool but has and I would like to see that addressed. been left in the social welfare area and redistrib- The Minister spoke at the launch of the Book uted to help people who cannot help themselves, of Estimates about value for money. As always, for example, the carer’s allowance. I was a we must examine if we are getting value for Member of the Da´il when the carer’s allowance money in our health service. We have trebled the was first introduced. The budget for the first year amount being spent on health in eight years to was £8 million. That budget has increased sub- \11 billion. Even if we were to spend a further \4 stantially since, but there is scope to go further. billion that would still not solve the problems in The means test for the allowance should be the health service. The previous Minister, Deputy removed but when we suggest that we are told Martin, tried to address the fundamental difficult- the costs involved would be too high. However, ies that exist in that area and I am sure the there is still scope to go further. I would like too Ta´naiste will continue this process. see the removal of any means testing. We are told Health appears to have an ability to soak up that to do this would entail a cost, but that is a money. Part of the problem is that health cost accruing to social welfare. This highlights one inflation will always be higher than inflation in of the flaws in the system of accounting that we general because so much new technology has to use in the public sector. I believe there would be be dispersed to various areas. A few years ago a significant saving in the health area if social wel- everybody in my area requiring dialysis had to fare was to absorb this cost but the system we use travel to Dublin for three days per week of kid- does not appear to be capable of taking that into ney dialysis but this service is now more widely account. On several occasions I have asked for available around the country, which costs money. this change but I do not think any study has been I am very pleased with the announcement done on what could be saved in health expendi- regarding medical cards. The 7.5% increase will ture if this money was given to social welfare. lead to 30,000 new medical cards. I have heard it Interaction across Departments does not appear said that people would still have to pay for their to take place but it should happen. medicines. At the moment they pay for medicines 1333 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1334 and GP visits so it is a significant improvement I accept the Minister for Social and Family for them. It will also help take pressure off acci- Affairs will make his announcement in regard to dent and emergency units. social welfare benefits on budget day so we I spoke on cancer services during an Adjourn- cannot comment on that today. This is in stark ment debate last week. When speaking about the contrast to what happened last year in regard to Estimates for her Department, the Ta´naiste and the Estimates when the Minister announced the Minister for Health and Children referred to the introduction of reviewed and adjusted schemes expansion of cancer services. Radiotherapy is which subsequently became known as the “sav- badly needed in the south east. It is a nonsense age 16” cuts. That is one of the more important to have two of the three disciplines for cancer aspects of the Estimates which has been over- treatment, chemotherapy and surgery, but not to looked. I hope the Minister will reverse those cuts have radiotherapy. I hope this will be achieved on budget day but we have not been given any under the planned expansion of services. There is indication that this will be the case. I urge the also a need for a dedicated oncology ward and Minister of State to make representations to him for the BreastCheck programme to be expanded. that those cuts should be reversed as they When speaking on the Estimates, most people affected the most vulnerable in society. They did have a shopping basket for their own area. I have not affect the well-off but those who are less able referred to a couple of things already. The Mini- to help themselves. ster for Finance was in Waterford recently at a The national anti-poverty strategy states that chamber of commerce dinner. The deputy mayor people are living in poverty if their income and spoke eloquently and let him know the require- resources — material, cultural and social — are ments for the south east so I will not take up time so inadequate as to preclude them from having a in the House putting it on the record as the Mini- standard of living that is regarded as acceptable ster is well aware of it. by Irish society generally. Our society should be judged on how we look after our elderly, our chil- Ms Terry: I welcome the Minister of State, dren and people with disabilities. These people Deputy de Valera, to the House. It is good to are not being adequately looked after in many have her here. In his opening statement, the Mini- respects. I acknowledge that old age pensions and ster, Deputy Cowen, said that the Estimates and child benefit have increased in recent years but at budget must “contribute to our general economic least 66,000 children still live in consistent poverty and social development.” He also said: “It is the and 237,000 live in households with incomes objective of the Government, by making the cor- below the poverty line. We also have households rect decisions in the Estimates and budget to pro- headed by people who are ill or disabled and mote sustainable economic growth so we have the which have a relatively high risk of consistent resources to spend money on the social needs of poverty. Where a household is headed by some- our society that help enhance the dignity and one who is unemployed, the risk to that family is quality of life of those who require our help and far greater than a family whose head has a job. support.” I concur with these sentiments. It is a The increase in poverty risk for single adult very commendable statement with which nobody households has also become an increasing trend here would argue. in Ireland. This mainly comprises single adults However, the Government does not stand up living alone, a high proportion of whom are to scrutiny in regard to it. We heard from the pre- women. Another area in which the gap has wid- vious speaker, Senator Kenneally, what the ened is the increasing number of people on hous- Government really thinks about helping enhance ing waiting lists in every local authority area in the dignity and quality of life of those who the country. There are currently more than 50,000 require our help and support. He advocated that households on waiting lists for social housing in a we must not tamper with the lower tax rate but year in which only 315 social houses were built. we should tackle the upper rate. That says it all When will we ever catch up and provide some for the Government’s attitude, that we should hope for such people? The Government looks continue to widen the gap between rich and after the wealthy and is encouraged not to tamper poor —— with the tax code for people on the lower rate. A Combat Poverty Agency study in 2001 Mr. Kenneally: I also said we should widen the showed that there is a link between low income tax bands. poverty and ill health. Two thirds of 30 families in the study had some health problems. People Ms Terry: —— and that we should continue to affected by ill health are more likely to live on help those who are well able to help themselves a low income because they were unable to gain while once again ignoring the less well-off in our employment or because their employment experi- society. This reflects poorly on the Government. ences were likely to be sporadic due to ill health. Stress, isolation and depression were induced by Mr. J. Phelan: Hear, hear. lack of money. Inadequate income made a healthy diet difficult. To find people living in Ms Terry: I will try to elaborate on why I deprived communities, I need only look to west believe the gap has widened between the haves Dublin to see how deprivation and disadvantage and the have-nots. has had an effect on a community. The Govern- 1335 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1336

[Ms Terry.] Not only does it not come second on the list of ment is doing little to tackle such difficulties and priorities, it does not even come third, fourth or the problems are increasing on a weekly basis. fifth. If these savage cuts are not reversed this year, it will be a dreadful indictment of the Govern- Ms Ormonde: I wish to share time with Senator ment. The back to education allowance has more Maurice Hayes. or less been abolished at third level, saving just \2.2 million. The conditions for the rent sup- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? plement scheme were severely curtailed and Agreed. restricted. Many of us have read the report by CentreCare, the agency which deals with the Ms Ormonde: I welcome the Minister of State homeless, which outlines the severe impact these to the House. I congratulate the Minister for Fin- cuts are having on homeless people. Restricting ance, Deputy Cowen, for introducing a quality people from rent allowance by ensuring that they Book of Estimates. It is based on having money are resident in rented property for six months and deciding how to allocate the resources. I am before they can receive it is outrageous. Families pleased that there will be increases in the areas need rent supplement in the first place. How can about which Senator Terry has expressed con- they possibly afford to live in rented accommo- cern. I, too, would be concerned if the dation and pay full rent if they are in need of rent disadvantaged were not looked after, if adult edu- supplement? I ask that this cut be reversed. cation was not looked after and if the community The cre`che supplement for child care was employment schemes were not restored in areas another dreadful cut, particularly given that we in order that we can have a good quality of life are trying to encourage young parents, partic- in our communities. However, this will happen ularly young mothers, to get back into education. this time, which is what I like about these plans. They know the only way out of poverty is through They focus on areas of quality of life for children, education and employment. Surely, our job is to the disadvantaged, the elderly and people who encourage such people to go back to work and need help in their homes in the form of respite give them whatever assistance we can, but cutting care and so on. their benefits is doing nothing to assist people in I have read through the various programmes the lowest income group. and am pleased that the Government will The earnings threshold for disability and unem- announce a quality of life budget next week. ployment benefit was to increase from \88.88 to \150 per week and, as a consequence, increase Ms Terry: Will the cuts be reversed? the thresholds for the three bands used for the purposes of these graduated rates. This measure Ms Ormonde: The statements are in the Book is, in effect, an adjustment of the threshold in line of Estimates. More than \460 million will be with inflation. The gross savings of this were esti- spent on disadvantage next year. That is a col- mated at \14.3 million, with 10,300 people ossal amount by any standards. There is an 8% affected. Other cuts included the dietary sup- increase in spending on adult education. There plement, the half rate child dependent allowance will be an increase in the quality of adult guid- and others of which the Minister of State is well ance, adult literacy, the VTOS programme and aware. child care facilities. This is mentioned in the Esti- The money to be invested in the equality area mates. I worked in that sector and I am aware as outlined in the Estimates is inadequate. Crime that there was a slowdown in the programmes. against women in the first half of 2004 has seen a Thankfully, however, the money is available now percentage increase compared with the first half and it will be focused on this area. of 2003. The rape of females increased by 27%, The health sector is also a serious concern of rape under section 4 increased by 22% and aggra- mine. I am delighted with the increase in medical vated sexual assault increased by 175%. This card services. People will be able to attend a gen- demonstrates a worrying trend in crime against eral practitioner rather than accident and emer- women. However, very little funding is being gency departments. There is also an increase in given to the organisations involved in tackling the number of frontline staff, such as nurses, den- crime against women and domestic violence. tists, orthodontists and so forth. These are areas Senators will have heard that Women’s Aid which required attention and I congratulate the was unable to respond to a large percentage of Minister on the fact that they are detailed in the its telephone calls because of lack of resources, Book of Estimates and that they will receive leading to people in the office being unable to attention. take calls. An increase of 1% is being given to the I wish to put down a marker regarding the Equality Authority, 3% to the National Women’s radiotherapy unit in Waterford. I am a native of Council, 2% for equality proofing, 3% for gender Waterford and I ask the Minister of State, mainstreaming and 3% for national consultative Deputy de Valera, to convey a message to the committee on racism and inter-culturalism. If we Minister for Health and Children. This unit is are depending on the Minister for Justice, necessary for Waterford. Equality and Law Reform, we will wait for a very long time before we see equality in our society. Mr. J. Phelan: Hear, hear. 1337 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1338

Ms Ormonde: I make no bones about that. I standing facility or a combination of what we come from a medical background and I am aware have. We need a research university that is in the of the consequences of not having a radiotherapy world’s top rank. Otherwise, our young people unit in Waterford and not being able to provide will leave to go to the good laboratories. They this necessary service. The Ta´naiste is sensitive will go to the facilities with the good teachers and about this matter and is giving it detailed con- the people who write the books. Our good sideration. teachers will follow them and most will not Another matter that deserves consideration is return. the interaction between the Department of In future, industrial jobs will go to low-wage Health and Children and the Department of Edu- economies and service jobs will follow them. If cation and Science. There is not enough co-oper- Ireland is going to build on the wonderful ation in health and education areas, particularly advance that has been made, it will be in the in the primary education sector, which is the first knowledge-based industries, in research and step on the education ladder. This is where there development and in similar areas. A list was pub- might be problem children who require the ser- lished recently — and one might query the vices of both the Department of Health and Chil- criteria that were used — ranking universities dren and the Department of Education and internationally. In the first 200, Trinity College, Science. There is a lack of educational psychol- Dublin, was 89th and Queen’s University, Belfast, ogists to detect the problems that arise in children was 147th. The rest of our universities were coming from dysfunctional backgrounds. If they absent. It is not an issue of scale or population are not caught at that early stage, it can be detri- because there were three Australian universities mental for their future. I urge the Minister to in the first 20. Unless Ireland can develop that ensure there is a complementary overlap between type of capacity, where our institutions are in that education and health. It is an area in which there first division or, at least, in the first 50, our indus- is duplication yet the child in the centre can trial and economic future is in peril. sometimes lose out. I hope there will be a further debate on this I could say a great deal more on this issue but issue, as has been sought by a number of my time is limited. I am pleased with this Book Members. This is the one item missing from the of Estimates. The quality of life issues are now Estimates. I hope it will be possible to seriously taking root in our thinking. The money is avail- examine the university sector, particularly with able to implement a focused budget which will regard to research which is very important. ensure that the disadvantaged will have a better Apart from that, the Minister’s speech was quality of life. extremely encouraging. Undoubtedly, he will bring to this portfolio the same quality and perti- Dr. M. Hayes: I am grateful to Senator nacity which he brought to his last position. Ormonde for sharing time. It means I will have However, there must be further consideration of to cut down on the pleasantries but the Minister the needs of higher level education. can take them as delivered. I speak not as a consumer of the services dealt Mr. O’Toole: I wish to share time with with in the Estimates or with a constituency Senator Henry. interest but to offer some general comments on two areas. I will focus on the research capacity of An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. higher education but, with regard to health, I would be disinclined to put any more money into Mr. O’Toole: I welcome the Minister for the this sector until the systems are put in order. Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I When one puts more money into a black hole, would be pleased if he would stay for the Private one simply confirms people in their behaviour. Members’ debate but that environmental issue Money could be focused on getting and keeping appears to have been grabbed by the Department people out of hospital. of Transport. I believe the M3 should be the con- I welcome the extension of the medical card cern of the Minister for the Environment, Heri- scheme. It is a pity the Minister could not go a tage and Local Government rather than of the little further and cover the cost of drugs which are Minister for Transport but that is a matter for very expensive. There should be more generous another debate. treatment of the chronically ill. For some time, a The Estimates cover so much it is hard to deal number of Members have been making represen- with them in detail so I have selected a few issues tations to the Department of Health and Children which I wish to discuss and examine carefully. on behalf of the small and declining number of The Estimates are only a forerunner of the people who are survivors of the polio epidemic in budget. Whatever happens in the budget is the the 1950s. The Department seems to be entirely real game. That is where the Estimates stop being incapable of comprehending the possibility that a drama and become real. I believe that the first they might be registered as chronically ill users move on taxation should apply to the lower paid. of drugs. People on the minimum wage should be outside The economy and future development of this the tax net. I make no apologies for saying that country requires that we have at least one this is where our priorities should lie. The Mini- research university, whether it is a single free- ster hinted that his thinking lies in that direction. 1339 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1340

[Mr. O’Toole.] of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, was appointed. Doing what I suggest, in conjunction with the ODA is extremely important but there is another indexation or widening of the tax bands, is the issue of similar importance which relates to way to ensure that there will not be a huge matters outside of this jurisdiction, namely, our number of people at the higher rate. I re-empha- commitment to everyone on this island. We sise, however, that the most important factor is should consider, within the debate on the Esti- that people on the minimum wage should be mates, making a significant investment in the removed from the tax net. I give full credit to peace process in terms of bridge-building and the Government for the number of people who, cross-community operations on both sides of the during the past ten years or so, have been Border in order to ensure that the said peace pro- removed from the tax net. That is important and cess finds roots among members of ordinary com- we should recognise and acknowledge what has munities. The DUP has stated that £1 billion been done. We should continue to remove those should be invested in the North. In my view, on lower incomes from the tax net because it will some of that money should be invested in the give them the motivation and incentive to work. peace process by means of supporting groups We need to be understanding in terms of our such as Co-operation Ireland and others which perception of the growth rate. At times during are doing extraordinary work in that area. the 1990s, there was a growth rate of 10%. For a As regards education, the Minister for Edu- large part of that decade, growth rates reached cation and Science has given a clear indication between 6% and 9%. Ireland cannot cope with that she will be giving specific consideration to such high rates of growth because they lead to the area of primary education. I would like her the creation of congestion and levels of demand to give a commitment to get rid of all untrained we cannot meet. They also make the population personnel from primary schools. That should be extremely unhappy. I have stated on many one of her first priorities. She should also give a occasions during the past ten years that — this is commitment to deal with the children with special an instinctive or intuitive response because I educational needs by making an investment in cannot prove it — in terms of my experience of that sector. Class sizes must also be reduced, negotiating and the consideration of economic which would mean the provision of additional factors and underlying economics, a growth rate teachers. There will, therefore, be a need for a of approximately 4.5% is the highest with which concentrated building programme to keep these we can cope and sustain. The rate is likely to be matters moving in parallel. over 5% this year and, in my opinion, this will We need to appoint an additional 500 teachers lead to our encountering difficulties again. in order to eliminate the use of untrained person- The Minister commented on a number of nel. In terms of class sizes, we will need to occasions recently about the importance of the appoint a couple of thousand teachers over a development of road infrastructure. On the radio number of years. There has been a major row this morning, he stated that he is of the opinion about whether the Minister can meet the promise that our road infrastructure will come right in the of the Government to achieve this within its term next few years. He also intimated where invest- of office. Rather than getting hung up on how ment is being made. That is another matter with long it will take to achieve, I would prefer if a which we will deal during Private Members’ time. structured process to implement all that is con- We are happy about some but not all of this tained in the programme for Government and to investment. I would like to see a greater invest- meet the other needs relating to primary edu- ment in rail infrastructure. A telling comment cation was put in place. If it took a year longer to was made on the Order of Business last week by achieve the relevant goal, people might argue Senator Kitt who referred to morning reports about it but they would be happy once they see about the level of traffic entering Galway and progress being made. stated that a first class rail service from Tuam to The progress to which I refer will be measured Galway city could be operational within six by the employment of additional teachers and by months, whereas it would take six years to put in ensuring that the colleges of education take on as place a road of motorway quality on the same many students as possible, that the postgraduate route. We should bear that in mind when con- qualification is put in place and that a conversion sidering the position of Navan. course — which was approved by the then Mini- In the past two years, there has been a great ster, Deputy Martin, many years ago but which deal of criticism about the Government’s commit- was subsequently blocked at some point — for ment to benchmarking. I wish to place on the post-primary teachers who want to continue their record the fact that the period in question has careers by becoming fully-qualified primary witnessed the least ever disruption in the civil and teachers is instituted. The latter could be public service. When we set about instigating achieved very easily by the provision of a series of benchmarking, it was our goal to achieve the short-term modular courses. Such a course would great prize, namely, industrial peace and stability eliminate many problems and provide greater within the public sector. The latter has been flexibility between the primary and post-primary achieved at good value to the State. sectors. People may not be aware that a signifi- There has been much discussion about over- cant number of qualified and trained post-pri- seas development aid since the relevant Minister mary teachers are working in the primary sector. 1341 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1342

Unfortunately, these individuals are considered spent. I include here the well-spent money from unqualified in the primary sector and they would the global fund, to which Ireland contributes. welcome the opportunity to become fully quali- Irish people have a great respect for mothers. fied. These small matters to which I refer could We were always very proud of our obstetrical and be dealt with in the context of the Estimates. gynaecological care. I would like to see Ireland helping to reinforce this care in other countries, Dr. Henry: I thank Senator O’Toole for being particularly in those developing countries which so generous in sharing time. I wish to address the are recipients of Irish aid. I hope there will be no issue of overseas aid. As Deputy O’Donnell so question of any cutbacks. eloquently put it in today’s newspapers, our com- I warmly welcome the wise words of Senator mitment to providing such aid is how we are Maurice Hayes. I chaired the association and known abroad. This issue is extremely important trust in Trinity College which is one of the fund- for the countries to which we have been providing raising organisations for the college. I seemed to assistance. I refer, in particular, to the priority spend more time imploring and beseeching countries in Africa, three of which, Ethiopia, people to give money to the university than doing Uganda and Zambia, I have visited on several anything to encourage academic research or occasions. I am aware of the high regard in which teaching, which is not as it should be. people in these states hold Ireland. Not only does Ireland give generously in terms of providing aid Minister for the Environment, Heritage and but that aid is not tied. That latter is important Local Government (Mr. Roche): In framing the because some countries provide aid but this is 2005 Estimates and the budget, the Government’s tied to the purchase of food and services from primary aim is to continue support for economic such countries which is then given to recipient growth and employment as a way of making countries. Ireland buys food and services on the further progress. As a result of the Government’s spot, which is extraordinarily important. successful management of the public finances and I hope we have enough money to continue to economy, we should remind ourselves of what we provide bilateral aid. I am disappointed that we have collectively achieved because it is not just a will not be in a position to meet our target of case of Government achievement but rather of 0.7% of GDP for overseas development aid by what we the people have achieved. 2007. The Taoiseach promised the United The general Government deficit has been low- Nations that we would meet this target by that ered from close to 100% of GDP in the early 1990s to the current level of 31%, which is an date. Developing countries took it as a promise extraordinary achievement. The country has which was sincerely made and which would be enjoyed improvements in economic growth and kept. Everyone thought it would be kept. It will the Government has certainly improved the rev- not be kept because we have discovered that we enue position. However, the Government is not are so rich and that, as a result, the amount just running an economy but also a State. These involved will be much higher than originally improvements are aimed at assisting the people. envisaged. The Exchequer outturn for 2004 is now projected I ask that the Minister give particular consider- at approximately \2 billion better than the deficit ation to the area of multi-lateral aid. When it of \2.8 billion for 2004 which was forecast in last comes to how they intend to spend their budgets, year’s budget. There is practically full employ- governments are frequently much more influ- ment with the unemployment rate less than 5%, enced by multinational organisations such as the which is a remarkable achievement given the sit- United Nations, the World Bank, the Inter- uation in the not too distant past. The inflation national Monetary Fund, etc., than they are by rate at the end of 2004 will be of the order of small countries such as Ireland. I implore the 2.25%. It is worthwhile reminding ourselves of Minister to ensure that the level of money given these matters and of what we have achieved as to UNFPA will not only be maintained but that it a nation. will be increased. As he will be aware, the United Public sector expenditure is now double what States has withdrawn funding to that organis- it was in 1997 and has risen to \41 billion. The ation. Our increase last year was extremely Government is prioritising spending in areas such important. I applaud the former Ministers of as health, education, social welfare and invest- State with responsibility in this area, Deputies ment in infrastructure. The Government will Tom Kitt, O’Donnell and Burton, for what they increase its spending on health in 2005 to \1.4 tried to do. Their actions made a difference to the billion on a pre-budget basis. In the past four countries to which I refer. years, the Government has invested an average Unfortunately, the maternal mortality figures of approximately 5% of GDP in addressing the for sub-Saharan Africa, in particular, and the infrastructural deficit. This is a very important remainder of the continent in general are not point. Senator O’Toole spoke about quality of improving much. The UNFPA’s report for last life and this is how it is improved. I have been year shows that the improvement was marginal in concentrating on the inputs and that is only one most African countries. The position in respect of part of the story. The economy is now more HIV-AIDS is getting progressively worse, despite viable and more progressive than one could have the enormous amount of money that is being imagined or hoped for less than ten years ago. 1343 Book of Estimates 2005: 24 November 2004. Statements 1344

[Mr. Roche.] local government, social housing is of particular The spend on the key economic and social interest to me. The figure this year will be \1,206 infrastructure under the NDP is at record levels. million. I remind Members and, through them, By June 2004, the Exchequer will have provided members of local authorities, that I am carrying \1.8 billion more than planned. The resources are out an analysis of performance in local govern- being provided and the outputs are coming. ment housing. It would be quite shocking and not I ask the House to consider some of the a little embarrassing for people to look at the Government’s achievements in the past few returns in their own local authority areas. It will years. Some 47 major roads projects were com- come as a shock to most Members to learn that pleted between 2000 and 2004. Approximately very few local authorities have met the targets set 291 km in total will be completed under the for them over the past ten years. It would be national development programme by mid-2004. unfair of me to draw attention to one or two years Motorway standard roads to a total of 76.7 km but over the past ten years, if one examines the will be completed; dual carriageway completed total number of allocations, the total amount of will be 51.8 km and single carriageway, 155.4 km. money given to local authorities to produce local I am aware this cannot be done without causing authority houses, very few local authorities have controversy. Some of the controversies have been come up to 100% over a ten-year period. The extraordinarily hyped. It has been suggested that divergence between the targets and the reality is instead of looking to push the emotional button, even worse in the short term. Adequate funding people should adopt a logical approach. The M1 is being provided. I will be driving this particular motorway to Dundalk is the longest stretch of area because I believe the Senators who made the motorway in the country and includes the very point of the importance of this sector are correct. impressive Boyne cable bridge. This shows infra- The Government is putting in a significant sum structure can be fitted into sensitive envir- of money; \1.2 billion is not peanuts in anybody’s onments in an attractive manner of which one can language. I will expect public representatives at be proud. The Dublin light rail system is now local government level and those on the ground operational. The Dublin Port tunnel will be to drive this issue and make sure we have deliv- incredibly important in terms of the quality of life ery. I cannot go next year to the door of the Mini- in the city and will be completed by the fourth ster for Finance and look for money if I am quarter of next year. A Dublin Bay water treat- returning \300 million or \400 million on any ment plant costing \300 million has been installed account. which gives the capital a world-class water treat- The issue of education was raised by a number ment facility. I ask Members to remember the sit- of Senators. The total increase is \544 million. uation less than ten years ago when there was an We could spend the rest of the day discussing this open cesspit on the outskirts of the city. Senator subject on which we all have views. I share the O’Toole referred to the rail network in which concern expressed by Senator Maurice Hayes there has been a major increase in investment. about research carried out in universities. I am In 1997 the Government of the day invested \7 not sure that the entire answer is to push more million; last year the Government invested \329 resources from taxpayers into the sector. Senator million. This is probably not enough investment Henry also touched on the subject in her contri- but it is a lot more than \7 million. bution. In my view, industry has a role to play I wish to deal with some of the issues raised by because it should see that university research is Senators during the debate. Reference was made the seed stock for future development. I agree to the low level of increase in the local govern- absolutely with the point made by both the Mini- ment fund. This is neither a fair nor an accurate ster for Education and Science and Senator observation. The 2005 Exchequer allocation for O’Toole that primary level should receive the fund is \488 million, compared with the pre- resources. The Minister has stated she wants to vious year’s figure of \453 million, an increase of promote the inclusion, participation and achieve- \35 million or 8%. I am as interested in this fund ment of people from socio-economically as any Member of this House. I believe more disadvantaged areas and that is as we would all efficiency can be squeezed out of the public ser- wish. vices at local government level. By putting \488 I am a little surprised at some of the comments million of taxpayers’ funds into these services I made in this House and elsewhere on the issue of will expect a better delivery of services and I am tax. On the issue of disparity, the reality is that not prepared to accept the old arguments and the no Government should apologise for allowing old shibboleths that we did not get enough. We people to spend their own money. PAYE have enough now and it is up to us to do the job workers were crucified in this country in the past. in local government, both at central and Those PAYE workers on the average wage are national level. now paying significantly less tax than they paid During the period 1996-2004, the Exchequer prior to 1997. In the period since 1997, the aver- contribution to the local government fund has age industrial wage has increased by approxi- actually increased by 150%. I am not prepared to mately \10,000. A person earning the average listen to people saying we are not doing enough industrial wage currently pays almost \270 when not too long ago the same people, when in income tax per annum less than a person earning Government, did an awful lot less. In the area of the average industrial wage seven years ago when 1345 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1346 it was \10,000 lower than now. These are real — recognises that the current proposals achievements. The best thing a State can do is are likely to destroy at least 25 known keep its hands out of people’s pockets, so to sites; speak, although this is necessary to some degree — believes it would be an affront to our to pay for vital services. people that this specific area, a place of Let us take a couple of examples to highlight kings, saints and scholars, steeped as it our recent economic performance. The average is in our history, culture, mythology and rate of income taxation for a family with one \ legendry and, immeasurably important income of 50,000 fell from 33.5% in as it is to our identity, be ravaged and 5 o’clock 1997 to just under 21% in 2004. This despoiled; is progress because it allows people to make their own decisions and choices. In the — sees this proposed route as irrespon- case of a family with two incomes the figure is sible and unnecessary and therefore more dramatic, with average income taxation fall- calls on the Government to intervene, ing from 33.5% to 14%. As a result of the Esti- as a matter of urgency, on behalf of the mates, the pre-budget gross expenditure on people to oppose the current plans and public services will be \43.5 billion. I could cite to ensure the selection of a more sens- statistic after statistic but time is short. ible and suitable route for this The Government has prioritised the areas of important motorway project. importance to Senators and others who believe in I welcome the Minister of State at the Depart- education, health and welfare services. We will ment of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, continue to allocate resources on the basis of Deputy Killeen, who has been a sparring partner priorities in the social area. and compadre of mine for many years. It is I thank Senators from all sides for their contri- grossly unfair that the Government should send butions. We will never be completely satisfied as him to the House to debate this unpopular issue to reach that point would indicate we had lost our as he would not touch the Government’s proposal grip. I am satisfied that this Government and its with a 40-foot barge pole. He has been sent to immediate predecessor have achieved a vast the House to defend an amendment which has amount. The economy is in a good state. nothing to do with our decent, positive and pro- gressive motion. I never question the Cathaoir- Mr. J. Phelan: A lot done, more to do. leach’s decisions in these matters but I suspect the amendment is barely in order. Mr. Roche: I agree with the Senator. While I It is unnecessary to despoil the cultural land- would never be complacent, as a nation we have scape of the Tara area to accommodate the new achieved a great deal. M3 motorway. Instead, on this occasion, we can have our cake and eat it by building the motor- Mr. O’Toole: Does the Government need way while protecting our heritage. It is a matter another term? of being sensitive and practical. The Minister of State and I stood side by side Mr. Roche: Senator O’Toole took the words when we supported the development of an interpretative centre in the Burren, an area in his out of my mouth. He also made a point earlier constituency. I could make the same point with which rings true with me. Public servants have regard to the Blasket Islands interpretative centre delivered and part of the reason we are in our and many others. I do not approach this issue current position is due to the politically cour- from a position of opposition to development. ageous decisions we took and our excellent public This is the first time in many years that I have service. I have little time for begrudgers who sug- tabled a motion on planning and development gest benchmarking or the public service pay taking this line. awards were not a good deal. Our public servants Opponents of the proposed M3 motorway are among the finest in the world and we should should not be regarded as just another group of be prepared to pay them what they are worth. objectors. Having spoken to them, they take a sensible approach because their background is Road Network: Motion. one of interest in the area. There is no reason to oppose the construction Mr. O’Toole: I move: of a motorway. Among other reasons, it is neces- That Seanad Eireann, sary because the N3 is overloaded and the Government has been unwilling to build a railway — while fully accepting the importance of to Navan. For this reason, I hope the Minister of developing an adequate roads infra- State’s speech does not set out reasons for build- structure and ever mindful of the need ing the motorway. to have a practical approach to planning I hope a practical approach will be taken to matters, is appalled by the prospect of finding an acceptable middle course between, on a motorway being constructed through the one hand, what is proposed by the National archaeologically important sites near Roads Authority and others who wish to drive the Hill of Tara; ahead with the proposed route and, on the other, 1347 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1348

[Mr. O’Toole.] motorway characteristics — present no real prob- the lobby groups which wish to protect important lem. I discussed this in some detail with a former parts of our heritage by proposing a reasonable Member of the House, the eminent Professor alternative. I ask the Minister of State to throw George Eogan, who made his name and repu- away his script and, as a sensible elected public tation in this area. He said the construction of representative, consider their proposal. He these motorways has unearthed incredibly should then indicate what is wrong with it or give important archaeological evidence which is to our one reason the changes requested cannot be collective benefit. It has been stored and collected made. and is preserved. One of the great concerns for Over the years, I have regularly disassociated people is to have access to all that great infor- myself in the House from the green welly-wear- mation put together properly, academically and ing, tweed-jacketed urban types who go for a responsibly in the building of those roads. This walk in the countryside and suddenly describe should be recognised, valued and celebrated and themselves as “conservationists”. Having liked as an annexe to this debate, I ask that it be pub- what they saw, they want the countryside to be lished in a full scientific publication to the highest kept as it is and, irrespective of the quality of life international standards. If we make this available of the people living in it, oppose building houses we will show that we are serious about our in the country because it might affect their view. archaeological background. The Minister of State is aware of my consistent That was good news but the next project is bad position in this regard. news because, unfortunately, the part of the M3 I thought long and hard before getting involved route that goes through theTara-Skryne valleyis in this issue because I have encountered many fundamentally wrong. All the evidence offered to unreasonable objections to developments, some the environmental impact statement recognises of which have brought the democratic process of the importance of this cultural landscape and objecting into disrepute. Regularly, organisations urges that the area be avoided when the motor- such as An Taisce do not cover themselves in way route is being determined. Whoever in the glory, although it is not always wrong and has an National Roads Authority defined the Hill of important job to do. However, on many Tara as simply the hilltop — which appears to occasions, I have not shared its view on issues be what the authority has done — is completely such as rural housing. uninformed and dangerously ignorant of the In protecting the citizen’s democratic right to reality of the area. It is best described as a wide object, we have created a type of hydra which cultural landscape of major importance in the appears to grow another head every time we cut areas of archaeology, history and Celtic studies. It off one avenue of objection. I am known for mak- is different from Carrickmines which many would ing comments such as these in the House and argue could be dealt with through excavation and regularly express understanding for the Govern- recording. Some people argue the converse but ment’s frustration with regard to matters of this there is at least an argument against that. The nature. For example, I supported recent legis- Government must intervene to change this route. lation giving it additional powers in this area. There is no reason the motorway cannot be The Government may be tempted to write off routed away from Tara. It is a detour of a few the Tara-Skryne group as a nuisance. This would miles. It would be costly but given the centrality be a grave mistake and an error of judgment. of this location to our national identity, our his- Each issue must be considered separately. It is tory, sense of what we are and where we came our duty to be practical, sensible and positive and from, it would be cheap at the price. In to ask the Government to be reasonable and sen- researching this I was appalled to discover that sitive in its approach. It is uncontested that the when the different route options were being con- new motorway needed to replace the inadequate sidered the so-called P route, the pink route on N3 should be routed through County Meath. The the map, came out with the highest marks. The people of the County Meath, however, have had archaeologists who studied this recommended the to accept more motorway intrusion than any P route as being the one that caused the least other county. The roads there already include the problem. It would least affect the built heritage, M1 going through east Meath, the M2 being built was the preferred option of those who assessed through Ashbourne and that direction, and the the impact on flora and fauna, would have the M4 through Enfield and the west of the county. least effect on the landscape and visual aspect, These proposals have been generally accepted, create the lowest air pollution and offer the best and are to be welcomed because they add greatly option on noise levels. to the improvement of the national roads infra- These are facts. I do not know why the Govern- structure. We must now accept that the people in ment is putting itself behind the 8-ball on this. that county also have to deal with the new M3. I Why is it defending this indefensible position? It plead with the Minister of State to agree this could acknowledge this is mad, be sensible, listen should not be built according to the present con- to experts and local people, and build the road ception and set of proposals. That would be where it should be built without interfering with wrong and a grave error. an area that is central to what we are, our identity The location of the M1, M2 and M4 — and heritage. I look forward to the Minister of although the M2 is the N2 being upgraded to State’s response and to the debate on this over 1349 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1350 the next two hours. I thank my colleague, Senator visual effects, air quality and noise levels. In the Ross, for agreeing to second the motion. case of archaeology it recommended the P route but we are going on the B route. The P route has Mr. Ross: I was delighted to agree to second the least effect on the built heritage, and was the this motion when Senator O’Toole asked me to preferred option for reasons of flora, fauna and do so because of all the problems in motorway habitats. It made no recommendation on water routes and archaeological objections, splinter quality; the P route would least affect landscape groups and ginger groups coming forward, but and visual quality, have the lowest air pollution this is the one that really matters. I echo some of levels and was the best option for noise levels. Senator O’Toole’s points. There are merits and What is the point of the NRA commissioning a environmental dangers in various motorway report on these particularly sensitive areas, mak- routes put before us. This is the one that sticks ing definitive recommendations and then ignoring out most. I expressed grave concerns about Car- them? In other words, these criteria do not rickmines but we are in danger of becoming a matter at all. The oldest trick in the world is to nation where any archaeological find infringed by employ an independent consultant who will nor- a motorway becomes a reason for delaying a mally find out what needs to be done and to fol- motorway for a long and unacceptable time. I low his or her instructions. In this case, the report accept that and that wherever one goes in Ireland did not comply with the wishes of those who com- one will probably find an archaeological treasure missioned it, so it was simply ignored. of some sort. This, however, is not just any I have also spoken to Professor George Eogan archaeological treasure. This is Tara which is very who is the world’s leading expert on this area. He special to Irish history and heritage and should told me that despite what is stated by the Govern- not be infringed at any cost. ment and by those who support the particular One of the problems when we look at motor- route, this area is part of the Tara complex. I do ways is that cost is the only factor that seems to not think that anyone will try to deny this any- matter to those in charge. One cannot measure more. It is part of the traditional Tara complex archaeological finds, heritage, fauna, flora and and it will affect our history and our heritage, yet environmental damage in terms of costs. The it is only a three mile stretch. It would be more Government has tried to widen this motion to expensive to bypass that particular stretch and if talk about the wonderful job it is doing on the that is the reason, then the Government should motorways because the attempt to vandalise Tara tell us. It should tell us in straightforward terms is so embarrassing. Another example where cost that we cannot afford to preserve the heritage seems to be paramount is the Westlink bridge on which we have at Tara. If that is how members of the M50. Anybody who gets stuck every day in the traffic on the Westlink bridge realises that this the Government thinks, then they are Philistines. is a nonsense. It is justified on the basis that it If they are not Philistines, then they should give would be more expensive to buy out people other reasons, but they cannot give any environ- neighbouring the route than to let people queue mental reasons because their own report, given up there all day. by the NRA, finds in favour of another route. The cost cannot be measured against immedi- I appeal to the Minister not to take a decision ate toll road revenues. It can be measured only which will destroy a vital part of Irish heritage against long-term, almost infinite delays and and which will make a mockery of us in the eyes problems in the future. Equally, one cannot com- of those who are committed to environmental pare the cost of a motorway with heritage. They heritage throughout the world. I appeal to him to are totally different things. One is priceless, the reverse this decision. other can be measured in euro and cent and the cost to the Exchequer in the immediate future. Mr. Dooley: I move amendment No. 1: Senator O’Toole has made the case extraordi- To delete all words after “That” and substi- narily well that this is the wrong route. Nobody tute the following: is even claiming for one moment that there should not be a motorway or an extremely Seanad E´ ireann commends the Govern- acceptable alternative to carry the traffic going ment’s commitment and proactive approach through Meath. Maybe it should be a railway. in the delivery of the upgraded national Meath is the only area contingent to Dublin roads network; through which no railway runs. Maybe there — notes the Government’s commitment to should be a different route but this is the worst the protection of our national heritage of all worlds. and the preservation of archaeological The National Roads Authority set up an sites and features; inquiry to examine the sensitive issues involved in route selection. Senator O’Toole covered this — notes the on-going liaison between the but it is worth reiterating that the National Roads NRA and the national monuments div- Authority set up its own consultants to produce ision of the Department of the Envir- a report identifying the best and the worst routes onment, Heritage and Local Govern- in respect of archaeology, built heritage, flora, ment in preserving our national fauna and habitats, water quality, landscape and heritage and with dealing with archaeol- 1351 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1352

[Mr. Dooley.] ponent for the future of this country. This road ogical sites and features in accordance network is vital to sustain balanced regional with best practice; development, which is a key plank of Govern- ment policy. The Minister and I are acutely aware — notes that the roads programme is being of the importance of balanced regional develop- implemented in full accord with the ment. We need to ensure that a road network is code of practice on archaeology for the in place, together with other infrastructure such national roads programme agreed with as aviation and rail, as a counter-balance to the the then Department of Arts, Heritage phenomenal growth that takes place on the east and the Gaeltacht in 2000; coast. It is something which the western seaboard — commends the National Roads Auth- and the BMW region have suffered for a long ority on its commitment and investment time. The concentration of growth, investment in placing archaeological issues at the and population has not worked on the east coast. centre of the road planning process, evi- It has not worked because people spend hours on dent in the discovery of so many pre- the way to work in the morning as part of a rela- viously unrecorded areas of historical tively short commute to work. The regions have and archaeological importance; not been developed or have not been assisted in — notes that the national roads investment that development. In ensuring a shift in popu- programme is being implemented as lation out of the city and in improving the lives part of the National Development Plan of those who live there and those who do not, a 2000-2006 and supports the objectives key factor is a quality road network. It has to of the national spatial strategy, confirms form part of the development of infrastructure, the importance of the transport corridor whether it be rail or aviation. The people in the that links the north west, Cavan and regions are entitled to that development. north Meath to Dublin as one of the The M3 is critical to the delivery of this agenda. busiest in the country; It is consistent with the NDP and with the national spatial strategy. The same thing occurred — notes that the Government investment in the mid-west region, with the development of in our road network is essential to pro- the Ennis bypass. It occurs when we lobby for vide for balanced regional investment further funding to be put in place to link cities and is delivering shorter, safer and like Limerick and Galway. This is done to ensure superior road journeys; that there is growth and development so that — notes the comprehensive statutory people can live their lives outside of the city to public consultation procedures in place, the same standards as those who live on the east under the Roads Act 1993, which are coast. The M3 is vital in contributing to the on- also being supplemented by extensive going success of the local and regional economy, non-statutory local consultations by bringing better balanced regional development, road authorities; improved safety, and access to and from Dublin, its ports and its airports. In addition, this project — and emphasises the importance of will transform the quality of life for those living public private partnerships in har- in Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells. nessing the necessary skills and finance There has been much talk about the fauna and to support the earlier completion of the flora and the archaeological issues. I accept that Government’s ambitious national road and I appreciate the difficulties and issues that infrastructure targets. arise. However, neither Senator Ross nor Senator I welcome the Minister of State to the House to O’Toole made any mention of the people’s lives debate this issue. It is the first opportunity that I that it affects on a daily basis and their concerns. have got to congratulate him on his recent The same issue will arise in regard to re-routing. appointment and I wish him well. It is clear that There are farmers and people who go about their the Government, through the NDP, has and will lives in a very small local area. We have to look to continue to deliver on the strategic roll-out of at the impact that the development of any road the road network to drive economic growth in network has on those people. While the Senators this country. This is something that has been part seem to suggest that the P route was the ultimate of the NDP and the national spatial strategy for solution to all problems, at no point did I hear some time. By the end of 2003, the Government reference to the daily lives of those who will be had spent \5 billion on that particular pro- affected by the development of a road. gramme. Through PPP and Government funding, \8 billion will be spent between now and 2008. Mr. O’Toole: I asked that representatives of That is all for a very good reason. Motorways are the Government talk to the people in the area an integral part in linking the provinces with the with whom I spoke. capital city, as well as linking provincial, local and regional roads. Mr. Dooley: I have no doubt the Senator did A safe and efficient network of roads will pro- so. However, he seems to suggest that the only vide the infrastructure for the future growth and concerns that he had about the P route were the development of this island. That is a critical com- points that he raised. At no point did he refer to 1353 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1354 the people who would be most affected by the struction of the roads needed to facilitate that development of that road. It may be an oversight does not have to involve the destruction of his- on the Senator’s part, but it is an important point. toric monuments. There is a need to seek com- mon ground during the consultation phase, for Mr. O’Toole: The Senator is incorrect. example, during the planning stages when archae- ologists and representatives of An Bord Pleana´la Mr. Dooley: We can get into that again. are involved. After the road has been designed, however, we should move on and allow people to Mr. O’Toole: I have spoken to the people in get on with their daily lives. the area. Mr. P. Burke: I welcome the Minister of State, An Cathaoirleach: The Senators should Deputy Killeen, to the House. I support in prin- address the Chair and not each other. ciple the motion moved by Senator O’Toole. I believe agreement can be found and I hope the Mr. O’Toole: Some of them were farmers, Government will allow that to happen by believe it or not. accepting a way forward. Mr. Dooley: The capacity of the existing two The daily capacity of the N3 as originally envis- lane road is 13,800 vehicles per day. That is not aged was approximately 11,600 cars, but approxi- capable of delivering the current needs. This pro- mately 21,700 cars are travelling on it each day ject will result in reductions of between 75% and and that will increase to almost 40,000 cars by 90% in through traffic in the towns of Dunshaug- 2024. If the road cannot cope with the present lin, Navan and Kells. That will have a tremendous number of cars, it will not be able to cope with impact on the lives of those who live in those the increased numbers over the next ten years. towns. While it is very important to protect Most people acknowledge that something has to archaeological elements in our country, it is also be done to improve the road. I estimate that 90% important that we protect the lives of those who of people favour the construction of a new road are living in this era and whose lives will contrib- in some shape or form. Most of those who are ute to the archaeology of future generations. We protesting against the planned route are in favour should be mindful of the fact that future gener- of the construction of a new motorway. Previous ations will look upon whatever road is developed speakers have referred to the inconvenience that as the archaeology of the future. has been caused to the people of County Meath The new motorway will also benefit everyone and those who pass through that county. Many living along the existing N3 by removing the problems are encountered each day in towns like majority of the traffic and associated congestion, Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells as a result of which currently affects their lives on a daily basis. traffic jams. The many cars which travel through The present road is not coping with current traffic such towns when going to and from Dublin each volumes. The chosen route lies 1.5 km to the east day eventually end up in a mass backlog. of designated area of recorded monuments and Senator Ross and others have rightly asked east of the existing N3. As it passes through the whether the development of the railway line Tara-Skryne valley, the motorway will be a between Navan and Dublin has been considered. greater distance from the Hill of Tara than the If it has been considered, should the State not existing N3. The scheme has been designed to acquire the necessary land at the same time as minimise physical and visual impact on the it is acquiring the land for the motorway? The archaeological landscape around Tara. National Roads Authority is often praised at var- A considerable amount of archaeological work ious meetings for the tremendous work it does was carried out. A test trench was excavated throughout the country to provide a national pri- along the central line, with cross trenches dug mary and secondary roads network. Secondary every 20 m. The net result has been that archaeol- routes do not receive the same level of funding ogical sites have been found which would never as primary routes, in most cases. Is there a need have been discovered otherwise. From an archae- for three motorways within a 30-mile radius of ological point of view, it will provide an overall each other? I refer to the existing M1, N2 to understanding of life in the past. Derry and N3 routes. Is it possible to develop the We often concentrate too much on what is con- N2 and the N3 as a single motorway? Has that sidered to be the destruction of sites during road been considered? What is the position? If it has projects, but it should be considered that the been examined, has the possibility of providing a excavation of sites associated with roads has pro- rail link between Navan and Dublin been con- vided a great deal of information about life in a sidered as part of that process? Over 30,000 bygone era. It would be wrong to suggest there is people live in Navan, but it has been suggested a need to retain such sites. They should be inves- that its population will increase to approximately tigated and excavated, the information found dur- 60,000 in the next few years. It is obvious, there- ing the archaeological dig should be recorded and fore, that a railway line to the capital city will be matters should then proceed. required. Such a line would work wonders for the It is important, for obvious reasons, to ensure present roads network. that those who are living on this island in the cur- Great emphasis has been placed on the cost of rent era can go about their daily lives. The con- building new roads. Many people are objecting to 1355 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1356

[Mr. P. Burke.] Mr. Morrissey: I second the amendment moved the proposed M3 route on the basis of its cost. by Senator Dooley. I welcome the Minister of The last paragraph of the Government’s amend- State, Deputy Killeen, to the House for this ment to the motion calls on the Seanad to empha- important debate and I await his comments. sise “the importance of public private partner- Senator Paddy Burke spoke about the possi- ships in harnessing the necessary skills and bility of developing a railway line between Navan finance to support the earlier completion of the and Dublin. There was some good news for the Government’s ambitious national road infrastruc- County Meath area when the Book of Estimates ture targets.” The proposed M3 will be a public was published last week. The provision of \60 private partnership. We all know that PPPs million over the next three years for the construc- involve private investment and toll roads. If a tion of a railway station in the docklands of PPP contract is signed in this case, the private Dublin will facilitate the development of a rail- investors who will be recouped by means of tolls way line part of the way to Navan, from the exist- will not deviate from the route that has been ing line at Clonsilla to Clonee and Dunboyne. agreed. If the NRA, which I assume will be the Iarnro´ dE´ ireann plans to develop a major park procurement agency in this case, agrees a specific and ride facility at Pace, on the road to Navan route with the private investors, does the Minister just inside County Meath near the border with of State agree that there will be no further move- Dublin. The facility will take a great deal of ment in that regard? traffic off the road. If the route cannot be changed after the public It is clear to those of us who attended the com- private partnership process has been set in mittee meeting last week at which the NRA rep- motion, we will have to crash everybody’s heads resentatives spoke on the M50 upgrade that we together to agree on a route that is satisfactory to are building a great many roads. With the most people. As I said earlier, 90% of people recently opened bypasses at Monasterevin and agree that a better route, which bypasses most of Cashel, one can almost traverse the country on the towns in County Meath which are on the N3, dual carriageway or motorway. Essentially that is needed. Businesses in Dunshaughlin, Navan simply gets the traffic into Dublin faster. When and Kells, which are jammed with backlogs of one enters the city now, one must pass a modern traffic each morning and evening, have been version of a medieval gate called the M50, with badly affected by the failure to complete the new interchanges. I have described it as such because route. I am sure the chambers of commerce and it is essentially a ring around Dublin through local authorities in such towns would welcome which cars must pass and where there is conges- being bypassed by a new route to Dublin. tion every day, if not every hour. It is patently Has the National Roads Authority examined obvious that we are not increasing road space the possibility of combining the N2 and the N3 as within the M50. We must seriously consider why a single route? The Kilcock bypass on the western we are getting traffic into Dublin faster and over route, which is being developed under a public the M50 by means of a major upgrade if that private partnership, will serve the N4, N5 and N6, traffic has nowhere to go. which pass through counties such as Galway, That brings me to rail. I beseech the Minister Mayo, Roscommon, Leitrim, Longford and West- to bring to his colleagues my concern that further meath. Three or four national primary routes massive investment must be put into the railways come together to approach Dublin as a single as a way of achieving a modal shift from cars. We motorway. Has such a system been considered in have spoken of it now for close to a decade, since this case? It seems to me that there will be three the Dublin transportation initiative, or DTI, was major motorways — the M1, the planned M2 and initially established, setting out its parameters for the planned M3 — within 30 miles of each other how traffic would be taken from the roads and in County Meath. What will happen when the people would choose public transport. The only roads eventually enter Dublin? Where will the way that it can happen is if we have a seismic shift traffic go? Traffic will approach Dublin at great in our attempts to address the issue. When one speed from three roads that come from the same looks at the amounts being spent on roads, one direction, but what will happen then? sees they are vast and they will continue to be so I have already asked whether a rail route has over the next five years. That will lead to what been considered. If it is a possibility, has it been Senator Dooley calls balanced regional develop- discussed by the National Roads Authority and ment and assist the regions. Iarnro´ dE´ ireann? Has the Government reflected Those concerns must be addressed and I hope on the possibility of providing a rail route as well that will happen. I have made known the con- as upgrading the motorway? The issues are cerns of those who have been writing to me important in so far as they relate to the infrastruc- regarding the Hill of Tara. Regrettably, one must ture of the country as a whole. As I have said, I accept the present position. When one examines do not have problem with supporting the prin- the proposed scheme of 49 km from Clonee to ciple of the motion. At least 90% of people are Kells, one sees that one must also ask what is the in favour of the development of a motorway in realistic alternative. Some Senators opposite have the County Meath region. We can find a solution suggested removing 3 km to 5 km around the Hill to this problem, but the Government needs to of Tara. Obviously, no matter where one goes in bring everybody together to find it. that entire area, there will be archaeological 1357 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1358 remains, and I hope those remains will be studied, public opinion, namely, that the desperate rush to researched and recorded. Ultimately, we cannot catch up with the mess made of our infrastructure keep on conducting reviews. The scheme has will result in an act of archaeological vandalism. been on the cards for five or six years and has The arguments on the choice of routes have been in all the studies regarding what was going been well rehearsed, having been made by several through. There has been extensive public consul- speakers in this House. It is undoubtedly true that tation. One might say that, if one were starting no one has produced a convincing reason for this again, one would not start from here, but the con- route to have been chosen ahead of an alternative sultation process is over, and the submissions route that on every environmental and heritage have been made. The preferred route has been indicator was better. We have all had the oppor- altered. If we were to set about choosing an alter- tunity to read the indicators, all of which sug- native route at this stage, the precedent that it gested a different route for the sake of visual would set, the delays that might mount up and amenity and archaeological heritage. The argu- the great associated costs would have to be taken ment has moved on. The first ignorant—Iuse into account. the word in the sense of being without knowledge The road is obviously being built to deal with — response from the National Roads Authority the substantial volumes of traffic on that entry was that the new road was further from the Hill corridor. I live in the Dublin West constituency, of Tara than the existing one. Such was the level which is the gateway to that entire area. Navan, of intellectual debate with which the NRA began. Dunshaughlin and all the towns further out have Even were that argument sufficient to justify a been developed at a phenomenal rate over the second act of vandalism, if the area were one of past five years. The congestion that it has caused precious heritage, it would have been obscene to in those villages and towns must be addressed, make it simply because we did something wrong and that is what the M3 motorway seeks to do. 100 years ago. Road construction at that time was As I say, I have no doubt that the Minister will less intrusive and destructive and the roads were address the comments made by Senators this much smaller. evening and if for no reason other than this, I This project involves a major motorway with welcome this debate. floodlit intersections and so on. The issue under- lying the debate means that somebody like me, Mr. Ryan: I should not be here tonight, and we who lives approximately 170 miles away, feels should not be debating this motion. We should obliged to intervene. The issue does not relate to have learned from the past 40 years that public roads and it is a pity the amendment has been concern is a remarkably effective way of finding tabled because it ducks the issues. One could out what one might be well advised to avoid. I always conclude the reason for ducking the issue was a young person still at school when the ESB is because the Government is uncomfortable decided to knock down a large part of Fitzwilliam about it and, therefore, wants to discuss some- Street’s Georgian heritage. I was an obstreperous thing else. student in college when attempts were made to destroy a large part of Hume Street’s Georgian Mr. O’Toole: Precisely. heritage; since then I have changed only my occu- pation, not the adjective that describes me. Mr. Ryan: All of us support the construction of Attempts were made to do other things, many of motorways. A number of people in the Dublin- which succeeded, and on every occasion, history based element of the Green Party may not want and dispassionate analysis have shown that the a good road network but many Members and I objectors were right. It was a desecration of have discussed this issue formally and informally. Dublin to destroy a large element of its Georg- The country desperately needs a good transport ian heritage. infrastructure but desperate need does not justify We have now reached the next stage. A road short-term and destructive decisions. The NRA’s is desperately needed. The problem has been that response that the new road was further away for 30 years in this country the philosophy of the from Tara than the old road suggested an indif- Department of Finance regarding infrastructure ference to what it was doing that bordered on has always been that it should follow markets negligence. rather than create them. It is a fundamental Many Members have received correspondence philosophical difference between people such as but, at the risk of mortally embarrassing him, I me and those in the Department of Finance that refer to a letter I received from a former Member I feel that we should use infrastructure to cause of the House, who is the most eminent archaeol- and channel development rather than wait for the ogist in the State. He stated: development and then build infrastructure. We I would like to say that the proposed route should have done this five, ten or 20 years ago. I of the motorway is not on the line of the have followed most of this debate either in the present public road but going through virgin House or in my office. Let us not get involved in territory. There is archaeological and historical a spurious argument that somehow there is some evidence to show that the area is part of the objection over here to the construction of an Tara complex, that is, more than a portion of efficient road network in this country. On this the summit of the hill. Apart from actual side of the House we have the same concerns as monuments, there is also the problem of the 1359 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1360

[Mr. Ryan.] least motorway standard, is needed, although a integrity of the landscape and of the Tara legitimate question has been raised, which can environment. To put a huge motorway through also be raised about all motorways, which is what this sensitive and culturally rich area would be happens when one reaches the M50. We all know totally wrong. that one spends at least three quarters of an hour getting to one’s destination. The archaeologists employed by the NRA were probably trained by the author of the letter, Pro- Senator Paddy Burke is not accurate about the fessor George Eogan, and they learned what they N1, N2 and N3. If one is travelling across the know from him, yet they have suddenly come to Border, one is supposed to travel along the M1 a different conclusion because their employers before taking the Ardee turn off. One uses the have so dictated. M1 between Drogheda and Dundalk so that one This is about common sense not hyper-sensi- does not travel on the N2. tive environmentalists. Common sense was I fully agree with the comments about rail but ignored when the Kildare bypass was proposed. there is a rail line between Drogheda and Navan, which is used by Tara mines. It would cost An appeal was made to the European Com- \ \ mission at enormous cost in terms of time and between 15 million and 20 million to relay the expenditure because it found that the State had line and provide a station. The strategic rail not followed proper procedures. Given that the review recommended a line to serve Navan but consensus among domestic and international that will take the best part of a generation the archaeologists is that the proposed road through way things proceed and a line to Clonee will only Tara is an affront to our heritage, the State is bring one so far. I am always frustrated by trans- inviting submissions to the Commission, which port debates in that where we have infrastructure, will inevitably result in delays and, ultimately, a we do not propose to use it and, instead, we pre- significant cost to the Exchequer. fer to speculate about vast engineering schemes, The central issue is about whether the project which might, if we are lucky, be completed in 15 will be delayed and, ultimately, changed follow- or 20 years instead of doing simple, relatively ing external intervention or whether we will cop inexpensive jobs, which help to solve the on to ourselves and change the three or four problem. miles involved and avoid doing something which will make us look petty and extraordinarily lim- Senators: Hear, hear. ited in the eyes of the world. We must be extremely careful. There is no inherent conflict Dr. Mansergh: That is how the Maynooth line between development and heritage. It is possible was opened by the late Brian Lenihan and Albert to engage in both provided the will is there to Reynolds. They decided that with an investment address both. However, when somebody in a of a few hundred thousand pounds, the line could senior position of influence decides a short cut is be re-opened. Let us make maximum use of the the quick and cheap cut, we end up in the cur- existing infrastructure. However, I am realistic rent position. enough to know rail will not solve the problem. A series of questions must be asked about why I refer to the archaeological issues. We have an that is the case. What motivated the NRA to awful tendency to examine everything in Man- switch from the preferred route environmentally, ichean terms, black or white. We have had a archaeologically and heritage wise? What motiv- number of these debates, which have been of ated the authority to display a level of ignorance varying merit. The fuss about the Glen of the about what it was doing that suggests it never Downs did not have much merit. The glen looks thought about it? The authority began by refer- beautiful where the road passes through it. Trees ring to how far the road would be from the hill, are an eminently renewable resource and a great which suggested the officials had no idea of where deal of fuss was created by people who were, in they were. This is sacred territory, as it contains the main, ideologically opposed to roads. The thousands of years of this country’s heritage. Carrickmines issue also did not have great merit Some people in Fianna Fa´il might be influenced and even The Irish Times at the end published an because a road was built by previous colonisers editorial saying enough is enough. but that should have nothing to do with this I differ from Senator Ryan regarding the debate. We have the knowledge, resources and Kildare bypass. How do these rare snails stand awareness to realise that building a road there is now that the motorway has been built? It is an affront to our heritage. We have the time to impossible to eradicate snails no change the proposal and if we do not decide to 6 o’clock matter how hard one tries. Despite do so, our minds will be changed for us by people the involvement of the European outside the State. That would be the ultimate and Commission, I am sceptical about the merit of unpleasant irony whereby we would be coerced that argument. to defend our heritage by the European To come to the issue of Tara and the N3-M3, Commission. while this is something on which the Minister must make a decision it is an issue about which Dr. Mansergh: I approach this subject with cau- we must be careful. We have a paradox in that tion. I will first deal with the transport issues. The the National Roads Authority — and Members N3 is congested and a road to Navan, built to at may think this unsuitable — is practically the 1361 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1362 largest environmental patron in the country. It is he holds responsibility. I do not intend to put the second biggest planter of trees after Coillte. Senator Mansergh on stilts and provide him with It must also employ far more archaeologists than an overview of the countryside from Ardee to all the universities in the State put together. Dundalk, Navan and Cavan. He covered those Development leads to archaeological know- areas rather than the Hill of Tara. ledge. For example, we are told that Woodstown I support this important motion. While recog- in County Waterford is the most important nising the importance of the proposed motorway, Viking site, apart from Woodquay. If the road nowhere could our archaeological heritage be had not been planned there, would it ever have more at risk than at the Hill of Tara which is been discovered? Let us say for the sake of argu- threatened by the demands of progress. The ment that there are 27 sites along the M3 route. people recognise the necessity of developing an If they were investigated at the ordinary pace of adequate road infrastructure despite the undis- archaeological investigations where there is no puted heritage value of the area. If this project development involved, the process would take goes ahead, the conflict between the past and the 1,000 years. Perhaps there is an argument that future will result in the certain destruction of at these sites should be left for future generations. least 25 known sites in the place of kings, saints However, the alternative is that development and scholars. Tara is a place of magic steeped in provides us with the opportunity to investigate history. It is a well recognised centre of Celtic something that is probably not absolutely central. identity of which we are proud. Leaders from all The problem for Government and the NRA over the world have been brought to view arte- arises if they find something that is of unusual facts from the site. We are proud to show off our significance or something of which we do not heritage in legend and culture in the area. already have several examples. We cannot know “Tara is, because of its associations, probably this until the route is investigated. If something the most consecrated spot in Ireland, and its of that nature is found, it creates a serious destruction will leave many bitter memories dilemma for the Government and the NRA. They behind it.” Thus spoke Douglas Hyde, George need to consider the matter carefully. I do not Moore and William Butler Yeats as reported in have the expert knowledge to make such The Times in 1902. Nobody has a greater under- decisions, but they do or should have. They can standing of our magical heritage than W.B. Yeats also get advice from the Heritage Council and the whose writings give voice to our cultural heritage Department of the Environment, Heritage and in all its facets. Now, 102 years later the fate of Local Government. Tara again hangs in the balance. The threat then The question is what are the comparative risks was of British Jews digging up the hill in search of varying the route, accepting that this may involve some extra costs and investigations, as of the Ark of the Covenant, but this has been against proceeding regardless and facing the risk replaced by the far more destructive threat of the of coming across something of major importance National Roads Authority. which cannot simply be investigated and then The NRA has been accused of reducing the tarred over. There is also the possibility, as seriousness of the issue in its claims that Tara is Senator Ryan mentioned, that people outside the confined to a cluster of monuments on top of the country will become interested in the matter. hill. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is a difficult decision that can only be Nothing, in particular a road, should be allowed made with full knowledge and consideration of anywhere near Tara. This should not, however, the facts. A cavalier decision on either side take from the commitment of the NRA to should not be taken. This is one of the most develop roads while spending money on archae- important decisions the Minister for the Envir- ology. The people, in particular those who live onment, Heritage and Local Government will in County Meath, want and need the proposed have to take. I urge him to take extreme care and motorway, but not at the expense of the destruc- caution in making it. tion of Tara. We all recognise this. Senator O’Toole and I spoke to people in the area, to Mr. O’Toole: He is not being allowed to make the farming community and the people of County the decision. The Minister for Transport has Meath on this issue. They all favour development, taken over. but not the destruction of Tara. It is hoped the ongoing discussions between the Dr. Mansergh: Whichever Minister is respon- Department of Transport and the Department of sible, it is ultimately the Government that makes the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- the decision which could have serious ramifi- ment will produce an acceptable solution to this cations. I urge care and caution in coming to the impasse. It is important they do and that this right decision. meeting takes place urgently. All bodies should be brought in on the discussions in a consultative Mr. Bannon: I welcome the Minister of State role. We should have a select committee in place at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, to deal with the issues of archaeological sites and to the House and compliment him on his developments that we can expect to come on approach to his new portfolio. Senators appreci- stream. We need something in place to deal with ate that he has informed us of the areas for which this area. 1363 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1364

[Mr. Bannon.] Mr. Kitt: I welcome the Minister of State, Last July during the debate on the rushed Deputy Callely, to the House and congratulate National Monuments (Amendment) Bill 2004 I him on his appointment and the fine work he is said that the clash between the present and past doing. He is most committed to transport issues. had never been greater. I pointed out that the We are all agreed on the need for an adequate drive to create and expand our horizons was roads infrastructure. I agree with what Senator aided and abetted by our increasing knowledge Mansergh said regarding taking a balanced and technical advances. I indicated that the approach. He advised that we should not take a destruction of the primary source of our history cavalier approach to road development. I have was inexcusable in our headlong rush towards so- had many arguments with the NRA through the called progress. I pointed out that the Bill gave years but I accept it is very concerned about the the guardianship of our past exclusively to the environment and the preservation of archaeolog- Minister for the Environment, Heritage and ical sites and features. Our amendment acknowl- Local Government. It placed a heavy responsi- edges this in stating this is evident in the dis- bility on both the Minister and the Government. covery of so many previously unrecorded areas of Tonight’s motion asks the Minister for Trans- historical and archaeological importance. port to intervene in co-operation with the I support rail transport and agree with Senator Department of the Environment, Heritage and Mansergh that we should preserve existing infra- Local Government to find the most suitable route structure. Contact with the NRA and the Mini- for this important motorway. Experts have ster is most important at a time when many new advised the Department that the P route would roads are being developed throughout the coun- be the best in this case. The Labour Party has try. Oireachtas Members from County Galway argued that the site at Tara is littered with meet the NRA at least once a year to discuss road archaeological monuments. There is no disputing development in the county. What is happening in the fact that we cannot damage the culture and County Galway is a very good example of what history of this 5,000 year old site which is of sig- should be happening in other parts of the country nificant importance in terms of tourism. where several options are given in regard to pro- The Fine Gael Party believes that development posed road developments. For example, there and archaeology can go hand in hand. The nub of were at least three or four options for the Lough- the argument is whether we should preserve the rea bypass, which has now commenced, and the monuments in situ or record them. The latter will same is true of the Tuam bypass. Three options be at the core of Fine Gael’s policy. The road is were also available for the proposed new road essential and must be built. Archaeological sites from Tuam to Galway city. must be preserved in situ wherever possible and I referred to this road on the Order of Business where that is not the case artefacts should be and Senator O’Toole mentioned it in regard to brought to museums and preserved. the Estimates. I said it would take six months to The route chosen should have the least possible develop a rail link but it might take six years to impact on surrounding archaeological sites. get a new road. I stand by that comment. That is However, we should not be in any doubt that the view of the lobby group, West on Track, and urgent road works need to commence in some the inter-county committee composed of the five areas. The original road capacity envisaged for Connacht counties that strongly support a rail the M3 was approximately 11,600 cars per day but link. I look forward to an opportunity to discuss the number of cars today is in the region of 21,700 the development of rail, which would have the and this is set to rise next year to 36,600. If the strong support of the Seanad. Senator Henry road cannot cope with the present volume of referred to this matter also in regard to road traffic it will not be able to do so in ten years. development. Fine Gael believes work must commence on this The National Roads Authority is most strin- new road as a matter of urgency. gent when it comes to the environment and On several previous occasions I highlighted the archaeological remains. Some speakers referred development of the N55, the main route from to snails during the debate. The sea water baths Belfast through Armagh, Monaghan, Clones, in Ardrahan on the Gort to Oranmore road were Cavan, Granard, Ballymahon, Edgeworthstown to be protected and I hope this will be the case. and on to Athlone. This is an important route There are a number of options for the develop- which, if developed, would draw a significant ment of this road and I hope there will not be any amount of congestion away from the east coast. threat to the preservation of these baths. This option should be examined even at this late When the former Deputy, Padraig Flynn, was stage. I would appreciate if the Minister should Minister for the Environment he promoted the consider upgrading the road from national sec- bypassing of towns such as Lucan and Kilcock ondary status to national primary status. We need and people in the west queried the value of a main artery through the midlands. I have been spending so much money on the east coast. He promoting this matter for some time and I would made the point that it would also benefit people appreciate if the Minister of State should take this in the west to have such towns bypassed. I wel- matter on board. I do not dispute the fact that we come the bypassing of towns and the develop- need an M3 but we do not need it on the Hill ment of roads in the western region that is now of Tara. taking place. 1365 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1366

In putting forward the transport package in the water wheel and an ancient abbey built by the Estimates, the Minister stated it would benefit Dominicans in 1475 — not a very good time to jobs in the regions, commuters and business, build abbeys — which was supported by the Nor- which is an important issue. He went on to say man Roche family from the area. There is also an the Government is building roads because they ancient graveyard and a castle which was built by protect and grow job opportunities and com- the Condrons before even the arrival of the Nor- munity life throughout the country. Over \1.3 mans. There is a great deal of history and even billion will be invested in roads in 2005 alone. It romance; an heiress called Amy Fleming was is clear that the development of roads in conjunc- about to be abducted with her fortune from the tion with the NRA is important to the Govern- castle by some rogues but, fortunately, another ment. I hope it will continue this policy in a care- gang called the Nagles rescued her, telling her ful way, not in a cavalier manner. they would mind her and her fortune. In speaking of the new road from Galway to Members probably think all this information Dublin, it was said that the shortest way from was gleaned from splendid notices all over the vil- Galway to Athlone was through a great deal of lage. However, there is not a word stating any- bog, which is true. It would take up to half an thing about the place except the usual “fo´ gra” hour off the journey time spent going through which informs one that the Office of Public Loughrea and Ballinasloe. It could have been of Works is in charge and that if anything happens benefit to people in north Galway but the belief to one, one cannot sue the OPW or the Minister. is that one should build roads so that they would It is thanks to the restaurant in Glanworth Mill pass near major towns, in this case Athenry, that I gathered all the information that day. I Loughrea and Ballinasloe. We would not like to sometimes feel many things happen in this coun- see short cuts being developed. One has to take try because we do not understand what we have the development of these towns into consider- around us until it is under threat. ation because of the job opportunities that go When widening roads was all the rage, there with that, as the Minister stated in the context of was talk about doing something about the bridge the Book of Estimates. in Glanworth so that it would be more convenient Despite criticism I have made of the NRA, I for the 40 tonne trucks to travel across. Someone believe it is taking into consideration issues of tried to blow up the bridge during the Civil War archaeology and the historical importance of sites but it mercifully withstood the blast as well as and I hope this will continue to be the case. I also hundreds of years of traffic before and since. The hope we can meet regularly with the NRA. The Fermoy bypass was built but, because there will Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage be a toll on it, the town will still attract traffic — and Local Government has had regular meetings perhaps over my little bridge. with the NRA which I welcome. I listened to Too many people knew about Tara for what is some of the debate at today’s meeting of the com- proposed there to be taken on the nod. I am mittee. The Chairman referred to visiting the area delighted that Senator O’Toole tabled this under discussion. This would be an important motion tonight because, when one examines what mission for the committee as its members are not has already been destroyed in various parts of all familiar with the details of the area. It was Ireland, it is unthinkable to allow this area to be proposed in the Estimates that money would be destroyed too. I was in a town called Bolgheri on spent on this road next year. There is an oppor- the west coast of Italy when a motorway was tunity for the committee to examine the situation being built linking Rome with Geneva. There is and ensure it proceeds in a careful manner. a line of fairly slow-growing cypress trees outside the town that are the subject of a poem by Giosue` Dr. Henry: There is a lovely little village in Carducci, which is learned by every school child County Cork called Glanworth. I have visited my in Italy. Therefore, there was no question of the brother’s house there but have never had time to trees being touched, which meant the motorway walk around the village until recently. It is had to loop around the avenue of cypresses. located on the River Funcheon, across which In Tara we have, as Senator O’Toole has there is a beautiful 11 arch bridge, which is one rightly described it, a place of kings, saints and of Europe’s oldest and longest. The bridge has scholars — steeped as it is in our history, culture, been treated in an extraordinary manner for mythology and legend — being attacked by a many years. It was used by very heavy traffic, as road which can be built elsewhere without a great with the bridge at Slane, until one day two 40 deal of difficulty. Sometimes the simplest of sol- tonne trucks faced one another in the centre of utions seems to be dismissed as quite impossible. the bridge and neither would back down. The When we discussed Carrickmines Castle, I sug- locals decided to take the law into their own gested that a flyover be built. It could have gone hands and decided that no more would these over the site quite easily as only two roads vehicles cross their bridge. They put traffic lights needed to be connected on either side of the and height barriers in place so that this could not castle area. However, this was considered imposs- happen again. The local people had a sense of ible because it is all the go nowadays to build value of their heritage. roundabouts. The village is delightful. There is a castle on a I suggest that when we come to areas of such rock above the bridge, a mill with a functioning importance as Tara, our imagination must come 1367 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1368

[Dr. Henry.] ness people too. There has been a massive before what is practical. In that context, we need increase in the number of cars, trucks and vans only consider what happened at Wood Quay. coming from north of the Border. It has improved When I visited York to see the Viking settlement, conditions for people living along the route too I thought I would see something incredible when and has made a huge difference to the lives of all I saw was two sorts of basements, on which people living in Drogheda. We all remember the one could not walk but rather travel around on a controversy surrounding the M1- there were little train. At that time, I remembered what we swans in the estuary and ferns to be conserved. had where the civic offices are now — fine as they However, these issues were handled sensitively in are. I was in Cologne when workers building an an environmentally sustainable manner and I am enormous development found ancient mosaics glad to report to the House that the swan popu- right beside the cathedral. However, there was no lation on the estuary has doubled since the question of their being disturbed. A splendid motorway opened. That is just one of the bene- development has been built but one can still look fits. It was a PPP project and, in fairness to all down onto the mosaics through the glass in the concerned, every measure was taken to minimise museum which has been built. interference with the environment. I was in Verona when the Porta dei Leoni was I congratulate the developers on the spectacu- rediscovered. Once again, it was imaginatively lar bridge across the Boyne just past Drogheda, dealt with so that one could see the mosaics which has now become an attraction. Again, sig- underneath and alternative arrangements were nificant controversy surrounded the project at the made to avoid the important site. We have such time. It was handled properly. There was exten- knowledge about our own heritage areas. I am sive consultation with all concerned parties and quite sure that Senator Mansergh did not mean the result was a state of the art major road net- to suggest that if we just found such sites by good work running from the North to the South. It has luck rather than by ancient knowledge, we should improved life for all concerned. do nothing about them. Rather, if we find such There have been other examples over the years sites by good luck, as was the case in Cologne of developments not taking account of the envir- when war reparations were still being made in the onment. It is not so long ago that archaeology 1960s and in Verona, when sewerage works were being undertaken, one must treasure what is was not even considered when developments found. Whatever good fortune we have had to were proposed. I shudder to think of the amount find artefacts in excavations south of Tara, we of archaeological information and substance should consider the alternative routes which have which has gone missing over the years purely been suggested. because the structures did not exist to protect them. It is only relatively recently that legislation Mr. Brady: I welcome the Minister of State to and regulations have been introduced in this area. the House as well as the opportunity to debate Thankfully, significant strides have been made in this issue. We have had numerous presentations the precautions and measures which are taken and discussions on this issue before the Joint now to investigate and preserve any items or sites Committee on the Environment and Local which are of archaeological or historical Government. I agree with Senator O’Toole that importance. this is as much an issue for the Department of the The Carrickmines development was men- Environment, Heritage and Local Government as tioned. It is relevant to this debate because that it is for the Department of Transport. situation shows that when something goes wrong, It is worth examining what we are doing here. it goes badly wrong. It was a proposed two year For many years we did not have the resources to project but it took seven years. A total of 130 develop our road infrastructure. We were caught archaeologists were required, the cost of archaeo- \ in a catch-22, whereby there was no development logical investigations was more than 6 million and therefore no progress. We felt that the only and, in the end, 90% of the site was preserved. way we could attract major indigenous companies We must be realistic, particularly about Tara- and those from abroad was to provide a top class Skryne. The Joint Committee on the Envir- road network throughout the country and link the onment and Local Government has heard a main cities. The benefit of this was not just to the number of interesting presentations but the cities but for every town and village adjacent to decisions surrounding this route have not been these routes and the results are there for us all to taken overnight. There have been three years of see. The improvement in our main access routes discussion, consultations and environmental — north, south, east and west — has provided impact statements. The An Bord Pleana´la oral opportunities to develop major high-yield, value- hearings, which took 28 days, were the longest added industries throughout the country. The ever for a development such as this. Every factor proposed spatial strategy enhances the progress has been taken into account. made to date. The new Chairman of the Joint Committee on My own experience of road developments is the Environment and Local Government has sug- the M1 motorway to the North. No one can state gested that the committee members visit the site that development has not improved conditions and speak to the concerned parties. I welcome for everyone, not just for motorists but for busi- that proposal. It will give us an opportunity to see 1369 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1370 what is happening there and to talk to all An Cathaoirleach: Yes, but he has spoken for involved. approximately six.

Mr. U. Burke: I wish to share time with Mr. Norris: No. He spoke for three. Senator Norris. An Cathaoirleach: I am sorry. The Senator has Acting Chairman (Mr. Bannon): Is that four minutes. agreed? Agreed. Mr. Norris: We will compromise on that. This Mr. U. Burke: This week an inquiry is taking is a site of world importance. When Senator Kitt place into the construction of a new toll road spoke about the shortest way from Galway to between Ballinasloe and Galway city. Practically Dublin, I thought of James Joyce saying the all the proposed new routes and those which have shortest way to Tara is via Holyhead. It soon will been constructed have involved some inter- be — we will have to go to England to look at ference with an archaeological site. I support the photographs of it. It is extraordinary. It is as if the motion. In this instance, I cannot understand why Egyptian Government decided to put a tramline the NRA, through its consultants, does not carry through the Valley of the Kings. out its ground work before proposing a new It was interesting to listen to Members’ contri- route. butions. Senator Mansergh made a balanced con- The selection procedure followed by the NRA tribution and indicated disquiet on the Govern- is extremely dubious. In most instances, it pro- ment side. Senator Maurice Hayes, who was poses to consult with the landowners and all other nominated to the House by the Government, interested bodies as to which is the most appro- wrote a superb article in one of the Sunday news- priate route to be chosen. Invariably, however, papers outlining the difficulties. Professor Eogan, the process results in the selection of the route who is perhaps the most distinguished archaeol- initially proposed by the NRA as the preferred ogist and certainly the greatest authority in this route. I believe that behind all this the interests country on this area, has indicated his concern. of the developers of these roads are a priority and We do not oppose motorways. That is a myth. everything else fits into place in choosing the We also do not oppose infrastructure. In fact, vir- route. tually all the road can be built with the exception of a three mile stretch from Ross Cross to Carlow In the case of this route, I cannot understand Cross. Why not first build the two ends of the why the NRA and the consultants who designed road, which will give time to investigate and the road, knowing what they know now, cannot produce an alternative route? That can be done. move it slightly. I happened to see the records What is involved is not just a couple of pin- regarding the selection of a route in Galway. points on top of a hill or a burial mound but the There were four options for the road. I attended entire archaeological complex. This has been public meetings in various places in support of or recognised under legislation dating from the against a particular route. I saw a Minister of 1980s which deals with the nomination of archae- State claim to support the cause of those who ological sites. Under the discovery programme, wanted the route moved northwards. On the fol- the idea that Tara does not begin and end with lowing night, however, he attended another meet- monuments on the hill in State ownership is ing of bodies interested in having the route recognised by the fact that throughout the 1980s moved southwards. He indicated to all and sun- and 1990s the zone of archaeological protection dry on one night that he had made represen- marked in the SMR maps described a slightly tations to have it moved northwards and, on the greater area than that on the top of the hill. In next night, to have it moved southwards. 1997, Du´ chas redefined the archaeological zone However, according to the file of the NRA he as an ellipse some 6 km in diameter around the had issued a directive that the road take a par- hill of Tara. The area is already defined as an ticular route, which was neither of the two routes area of major archaeological importance. I mentioned. If that is what is happening, when There is no doubt that the crown of the hill is the NRA is supposedly not responsible to any- a burial ground. There is an impressive concen- body in the Houses except directly to the Mini- tration of monuments there that are clearly vis- ster, what or whose interests are the developers ible. There is, however, also an entire complex, usually following? Something needs to be done only some of which has been located. The about the finalisation of the process. Somebody remainder lies waiting to be discovered. must take this in hand and stop the rot we see I wish to deal now with the identification of the at present. route. The NRA considered various routes and there is no question that it decided upon what is An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris has two called route P as the most favoured on a number minutes. of grounds including archaeology, built heritage, flora, fauna and habitats, water quality, landscape Mr. Norris: Are you sure? Senator Burke only and visual effects, air quality and noise levels. In said about three sentences and he had eight no category whatever does it recommend the minutes. route the NRA has chosen. That is astonishing. 1371 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1372

[Mr. Norris.] another Newgrange were discovered? Is it not the Some of this information was diluted in the case that, in such circumstances, those involved environmental impact survey and led to a letter would be really up against it? In my view, it is being written to The Irish Times by a dis- better to face these challenges early on rather tinguished archaeologist which states An Bord than be obliged to deal with them later. Pleana´la bears some responsibility in for this fia- There appears to be an attraction in terms of sco because, “Its weak-kneed, unquestioning having everything dealt with in this area in the acceptance of whatever road plans are put before form of a single PPP. I am not opposed to PPPs, it shows that it is simply the Government’s rub- which are a great utility in ways. In this instance, ber-stamping department.” however, we must consider what would be the This is a serious matter. The place in question cost of delays. Let us consider whether, for has been celebrated by poets from Yeats back to example, a different equation might emerge if the the court bard of Maoilseachlainn in the tenth cost and agony of undergoing appeals, protests, century. One side of my family has old Gaelic etc., was weighed against constructing an roots and I am astonished that a Fianna Fa´il additional mile or two of motorway. Government would consider desecrating what is The crucial point relates to the integrity of the surely the most sacred site in Irish history. landscape around Tara. When people of the emi- nence of Professor Eogan and all the country’s Dr. M. Hayes: I hope it will not damage the major archaeologists and scholars of this era are Minister of State’s metronome irreparably to dis- opposed to a particular line of policy, it is worth- cover that I support the motion and oppose the while stopping to review the situation, reconsider amendment. I had hoped that the motion would the options and test the information one has been be taken on its merits but the amendment invites given. Perhaps the Minister of State might con- us to consider and either endorse or condemn a sider what Thomas Davis said in 1845 about range of motorway issues. people running a road towards Tara. I have enormous regard for the work done by the NRA. It has done wonderful work — includ- Minister of State at the Department of Trans- ing the putting in place of a beautiful bridge — port (Mr. Callely): I listened with interest to the on the road to Belfast and I wish its counterpart contributions of Members and I thank them for on the other side of the Border was half as good. their comments. It is evident that people feel I pay tribute to it for that. However, that does not passionately about this matter. I ask Members to mean that we should canonise it for everything it listen to what I have to say because I believe I does. Previous speakers referred to the need to can respond, adequately and positively, in respect move people through County Meath and to help of the issues of concern. them to commute. In that context, I hope the The motion provides a welcome opportunity to option of putting in place some form of rail trans- debate an important issue, namely, the upgrading port will be considered. The one thing one learns of the national roads network and its impact on about road construction is that regardless of one’s our archaeological heritage. I wish to state clearly plans, the road one is building will be almost the Government’s commitment to the objectives overloaded by the time it is completed. This leads of upgrading our transport infrastructure and people to seek alternative routes. Roads produce protecting our environmental and archaeological traffic which leads to further roads and traffic and heritage. The identification and minimisation of alternatives must be found. impacts on our environmental and archaeological Senator Morrissey inquired about what would heritage is at the centre of the NRA’s guidelines happen when the various roads reached their des- on project management. More particularly, the tinations in Dublin. It takes me longer to travel approach to archaeological issues is set out in the from Dublin Airport to the Houses than it does code of practice on archaeology for the national for me to drive from home to the airport. roads programme agreed in 2000 by the NRA and Another difficulty I have with the amendment the then Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht is that it removes the focus from Tara and the and the Islands. This code of practice sets out a more general matter about which we are con- comprehensive and transparent approach for the cerned. One of the problems is that, as regards treatment of archaeology on national road pro- the route chosen, there appears to be an assump- jects. It has provided a framework for dealing tion that if Tara and Skryne can be saved then we with archaeological sites and features in accord- can drive a road between them. This ignores the ance with best practice. integrity of the existing archaeological Before dealing with the Clonee-Kells project, environment. it would be useful to set it in the context of the A second problem relates to trial digs. If it was national roads programme generally. Investment not such a bad metaphor, I would say to the Mini- in our roads network is critical for the ongoing ster of State that if he is in a hole he should stop development of the economy, the facilitation of digging. Trial digs are fine to an extent but they regional development, the provision of safer rarely work well under pressure. Nobody has roads and shorter and more reliable travel times indicated what will happen if there is a major and the enhancement of our quality of life. For find. What would be the position if the type of these reasons, the Government prioritised invest- mosaics to which Senator Henry referred or ment in national roads as part of the national 1373 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1374 development plan. Investment during the period A great deal of time, expertise and expense has 2000-04 will amount to approximately \5 billion. been expended in developing the M3 motorway The results of this investment are clearly evi- scheme through the planning process. Every dent, with bottlenecks throughout the country effort has been made to mitigate the impact of being removed. Major projects completed include the proposed road through the landscape sur- the M1, Dublin to Dundalk; bypasses of Kildare, rounding the Hill of Tara. On the question of the Monasterevin and Cashel; the N7, Limerick proximity of the motorway to the Hill of Tara, I southern ring road — phase 1; the N22, Ballincol- wish to emphasise that the proposed road passes lig bypass; and the N11, Ashford-Rathnew road, between the Hill of Skryne to the east and the to name but a few. Work continues on many Hill of Tara to the west. The route was carefully other projects including: the Fermoy, Ennis, chosen so as to avoid the important core zone Loughrea, Mullingar, Cavan, Ballyshannon- around Tara, which has national monument Bundoran and Kinnegad-Enfield bypasses; the status. The chosen route lies 1.5 km to the east of Sligo inner relief road; the Dublin Port tunnel; the limit of the record of monuments designated and the south-eastern motorway, which will com- area and east of the existing N3 road. The motor- plete the M50 from the M1 to the M11. Planning way as it passes through the Tara-Skryne valley is under way on projects such as the widening of will be a greater distance from the Hill of Tara the M50 and provision of freeflow interchanges, than the existing N3 Dublin-Navan Road. The the Waterford city bypass, the Kinnegad-Athlone scheme has been designed to minimise physical road and so on. Since the start of the NDP in and visual impacts on the archaeological land- 2000, 46 projects have been completed, 20 are scape around Tara. currently under construction, nine are at tender Great care was taken by Meath County stage and a further 12 are either through the Council and the NRA to avoid any previously statutory process or before An Bord Pleana´la. A recorded or upstanding monuments when plan- major transformation of our national road net- ning the route of the M3 project. Statements that work is under way and it is about time. the selected route was, “the only route that was The upgrade of the N3 is an important part of considered by the NRA”, are incorrect. A total the national roads upgrade programme. The of ten route options in four broad corridors were Clonee — north of Kells — motorway is a much examined as part of the route selection study for needed project, consistent with both the national the Dunshaughlin-Navan section of the scheme development plan and the national spatial which involves the Tara area. Project planning strategy. It is a vital item of infrastructure which and assessment of route options were carried out will contribute to the ongoing success of the local over a period of more than three years. The and regional economy, bring about better impact on archaeology, as well as implications for balanced regional development, improve safety other aspects of the environment, effects on and improve access to and from Dublin, the ports people and their homes, the extent to which and the airport. In addition, this project will farms would be severed, together with traffic, transform the quality of life for those people liv- engineering and cost considerations were taken ing in Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin, Navan and into account in evaluating the ten route options Kells. It will result in reductions of through traffic in the Tara area. The archaeological consultants of 75% in Dunshaughlin, 78% in Navan and 90% engaged by Meath County Council to advise on in Kells. It will also benefit everyone living along route selection concluded that the preferred the existing N3 by removing most of the through route which emerged from this process was a traffic and associated congestion which currently viable route in terms of archaeology. The pre- affects their lives on a daily basis. The present ferred route was assessed as best or joint best road is not coping with the traffic volumes using under 14 of the 13 assessment criteria used as part the route and the situation will only become of the environmental impact evaluation process worse given the planned development in County and accordingly scored higher on environmental Meath and further afield. grounds than any alternative route. I am fully aware of the rich archaeological The public consultation process saw 4,000 landscape in County Meath, the importance of people attend public meetings. The preferred the Hill of Tara and its significance to our route was subsequently submitted to An Bord national heritage. Both Meath County Council Pleana´la for consideration. Following a 28-day and the National Roads Authority are also aware oral hearing during which extensive attention was of the special place that the Hill of Tara holds in given to archaeology and potential impacts on the national consciousness and of their responsi- Tara, the board approved the M3 Clonee-north bilities to protect it and the cultural heritage of of Kells road project proposal. In this regard it County Meath. Listening to some of the contribu- should be noted that the decision to approve the tors to the debate, one might form the impression proposal was, inter alia, based on the board’s con- that no proper consideration has been given to clusion that the motorway scheme, “is necessary this M3 proposal but nothing could be further to provide adequately for the existing and pro- from the truth. I welcome the opportunity to clar- jected traffic growth and would be in accordance ify the position which may assist people in making with the proper planning and sustainable up their own minds about it. development of the area.” The board also con- 1375 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1376

[Mr. Callely.] minimise and mitigate the impact of the project cluded that the scheme, “would not have signifi- on local communities, on the natural heritage and cant adverse effects on the environment.” on the archaeological heritage. It may be helpful to Members if I set out in The Government is firmly committed to ensur- more detail the extent of the archaeological work ing that investment in the national roads pro- carried out on the proposed route. I understand gramme is planned and implemented in a manner from the NRA that in the case of the M3 a test which ensures the protection of our national heri- trench was excavated along the centreline of the tage and archaeological sites and features. The 59 km length of the route with cross-trenches Minister for Transport is committed to ensuring being dug every 20 metres. This work, as would that the NRA works proactively with the national be expected, has identified a number of pre- monuments division of the Department of the viously unknown archaeological sites and fea- Environment, Heritage and Local Government in tures. Reports on the sites concerned have been ensuring that archaeological issues arising on submitted to the Minister for the Environment, national roads projects are resolved in accord- Heritage and Local Government, to assist the ance with best practice. In recent years the Minister in determining the most appropriate archaeological work carried out under the manner in which to deal with the sites concerned. national roads programme has made a significant The reports concerned relate to a total of 38 sites contribution to our store of knowledge about our on the 15 km section of the route between Dun- past. The Government wishes to ensure that the shaughlin and Navan. national roads investment programme is The extent to which new sites have been dis- implemented in a manner which minimises any covered, approximately 2.5 sites per kilometre, adverse impact on the environment and, as far as would be similar to the experience on many other possible, protects our national heritage. I hope schemes throughout the country and in some this reply has been helpful to the debate. cases the incidence of sites on the M3 is substan- tially less than finds on certain other national Mr. O’Toole: I thank Members most sincerely road schemes. On the M1 route a total of 211 for their contributions. It is very important that previously unknown archaeological sites were this debate took place. I am deeply dissatisfied found over a distance of 601 km, an average of and it is not satisfactory that the 3.5 sites per kilometre. In addition in the case of 7 o’clock Government tabled a 31-line amend- the Cashel bypass which was opened to traffic last ment to the motion which makes no month, 100 new sites were located on the 7 km of mention of Tara or its heritage. I am deeply the bypass, or 14 sites per kilometre. The reports unhappy with the contributions from the Govern- on the new discoveries on the M3, were submit- ment side of the House because they do not ted to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage address the issue. What occurred tonight was an and Local Government. They identify “burnt attempt to have a debate on the roads infrastruc- spreads” or “ancient cooking places” as the most ture. As I have stated, I do not have difficulty in common site type. Other sites include former giving the Government due credit for what it has burial locations and possible foundations of done with regard to roads. I am not a member of houses, including five of relatively recent origin. the Opposition but an Independent and I will Overall the new discoveries appear to be along offer my views on issues on which I agree and expected lines and do not appear to be of unique disagree. Similarly, with regard to the rail net- archaeological value in their own right. work, I support Senator Dooley on the need to The test trenching on the route of the M3 pro- improve the Galway line and Senator Mansergh ject was carried out by archaeologists who were on the need to improve the Limerick to Rosslare familiar with the results of the previous surveys line, as I supported him in ensuring the railway undertaken along the route. The purpose of these bridge in Cahir was reconstructed. I assure archaeological investigations is to identify new Senator Dooley that I consulted people in Meath sites along the route. Those discovered are on the issue before us. It may be news to him that reported to the Minister for the Environment, I live one field from the Meath border. Heritage and Local Government and will be dealt Mr. Dooley: I hope the M3 route does not cross with in accordance with the requirements of the the Senator’s land. Minister. Rather than losing sites, this work is adding to the archaeological record long-forgot- Mr. O’Toole: Half my neighbours are from ten sites that have no visible presence in the County Meath and those with whom I discussed landscape. this issue are all from the county. As a Kerryman, The upgrade of the N3 between Clonee and I have a fatal attraction towards Meath people Kells is an important project for the national because they wear the green and gold colours. roads programme overall. It is important for the towns of Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells; for Mr. P. Burke: The Senator will always be a access to and within the Border and north mid- Kerryman. lands regions and for access to and from the north west. It has been planned, designed and approved Mr. O’Toole: It is a typical Fianna Fa´il trick in accordance with statutory requirements. I to raise many matters with which Senators agree. understand that every effort has been made to While I agree with 90% of what was said by 1377 Road Network: 24 November 2004. Motion 1378

Government Members, the issues they raised coveries are made underground and we are sud- were irrelevant and lacked focus. As regards denly faced with a dilemma as to what to do with Senator Morrissey’s question, as the Minister of them, the building of this important road, which State will confirm, I answered it two weeks ago I support, will be delayed. When that transpires, in the House when I pointed out the problems let us remember that we had the solutions before encountered at the point at which the M1, N2 and us tonight but ignored them. N3 reach the city limits. The Senator knows as The solution is to opt for the alternative pro- well as I that the proposed solution, namely, to posal produced in the route selection report of establish park and ride facilities on every motor- the NRA. It caused least problems in terms of way or proposed motorway has been ignored by archaeology, built heritage, flora and fauna, land- the Government. Its failure to implement the scape and visual impact, air quality and noise lev- proposal will mean we will continue to have prob- els. This option was available but we refused to lems. The issue is that simple. take it. We are walking away from it because it calls for bravery. Mr. Callely: We are implementing the proposal. Mr. Dooley: What was the extra cost of the route? Mr. O’Toole: There are no park and ride facili- ties on the M1, N2 or N3. We will know the Mr. O’Toole: As I look around the House, I Government has acted when we see these see Senators who have taken brave decisions facilities. many times on development issues. I ask the I share the concerns expressed regarding the House to make one more such decision. Natterjack toad, the Kerry slug, bats in Ardrahan and so forth and I often visit the Broadmeadow Mr. Dooley: What schools will we decide not Estuary to watch the swans, which are flourishing. to build to fund the Senator’s proposal? Those are not, however, the issue before us, which is the Hill of Tara and I am concerned that An Cathaoirleach: Allow the Senator to con- Senators have been afraid to address the matter. clude without interruption, please. The Minister of State informed the House as to what the archaeological reports by Meath County Mr. O’Toole: I understand Senator Dooley is Council lead him to believe while carefully ignor- an up and coming Senator with a major career ing the proposals made by the route reporting ahead of him. I commend him on wanting to do group of the National Roads Authority. These a good job as a Fianna Fa´il Senator, but he is proposals, which I have before me, arrived at a wrong on this occasion. different conclusion. The Minister of State also Mr. Dooley: The Senator should name the carefully ignored Ireland’s leading expert in this schools. field, Professor George Eogan. I ask the Govern- ment to consider these issues. Mr. O’Toole: While important, Senator As regards our position on issues, I agree with Mansergh’s statement that the NRA is the largest Senator Mansergh. I had no time for many of the employer of archaeologists and the second largest objections which have been raised. I also agree planter of trees is irrelevant in the context of with Senator Dooley’s comments in this regard. I this debate. stood with the people of County Clare when they Senator Cummins recently asked me what was wanted an interpretative centre built on the happening with regard to Woodstown, County Burren because they were right and their pro- Waterford, where a commitment has been given posal displayed care, sensitivity and precision. that certain archaeological finds would, to use the Similarly, I support the construction of the Ennis words of Senator Morrissey, be researched, exca- bypass, which was so important to the Senator in vated, recorded and archived. Given that this is his election. I guarantee, however, that if some not happening, I do not detect goodwill in this philistine were to swerve the route of the pro- area. I appeal to the Cathaoirleach to ensure that posed bypass further east to go through some of members of the Fianna Fa´il Party look after their the cranno´ gs in his back yard, I would stand with heritage and support the motion. him to stop it proceeding. The people of Meath are asking Senators to take such a stance this An Cathaoirleach: I have no control over them. evening. I welcome the proposal that the Joint Commit- Dr. M. Hayes: I wish to raise a procedural tee on the Environment and Local Government point. Is it appropriate for the Minister of State visit the area and accept Senator Mansergh’s to respond to a debate with a speech written in suggestion that we examine the matter from both his Department before the debate commenced? perspectives. When this proposal develops into This approach negated the point of the debate. another Carrickmines and becomes clogged in the courts, as it inevitably will, let us all remem- An Cathaoirleach: I do not consider the ber that the reason was because we ignored the Senator’s question to be a procedural point. issues raised in the House tonight. When, as Senator Maurice Hayes stated, important dis- Amendment put. 1379 Mine 24 November 2004. Sites 1380

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 28; Nı´l, 18.

Ta´

Bohan, Eddie. MacSharry, Marc. Brady, Cyprian. Mansergh, Martin. Brennan, Michael. Minihan, John. Callanan, Peter. Mooney, Paschal C. Cox, Margaret. Morrissey, Tom. Moylan, Pat. Daly, Brendan. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Dooley, Timmy. O’Brien, Francis. Fitzgerald, Liam. O’Rourke, Mary. Glynn, Camillus. Ormonde, Ann. Kenneally, Brendan. Phelan, Kieran. Kett, Tony. Scanlon, Eamon. Kitt, Michael P. Walsh, Kate. Leyden, Terry. White, Mary M. Lydon, Donal J.

Nı´l

Bannon, James. Henry, Mary. Browne, Fergal. McCarthy, Michael. Burke, Paddy. McHugh, Joe. Burke, Ulick. Norris, David. O’Meara, Kathleen. Coghlan, Paul. O’Toole, Joe. Cummins, Maurice. Phelan, John. Feighan, Frank. Ross, Shane. Hayes, Brian. Ryan, Brendan. Hayes, Maurice.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Nı´l, Senators Cummins and O’Toole.

Amendment declared carried. found to be the case by an inter-agency group headed by the Department of Agriculture and Motion, as amended, put and declared carried. Food. It has also been found to be the case by SRK Consultants which reported in 2002. Since An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit then, the Department has engaged in close con- again? sultation and negotiation with Mogul of Ireland to come up with a satisfactory plan for the com- Ms O’Rourke: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow. munity which would ensure that the sites would be rehabilitated in a sustainable fashion. This Adjournment Matters. plan would have to ensure that dust would no longer blow from 147 acres of tailings pond in ———— the Silvermines area, containing toxic materials including heavy metals. Monitors around the tail- ings pond show dust with elevated lead levels and Mine Sites. other dangerous heavy metals blowing around Ms O’Meara: I welcome the Minister of State the Silvermines area. and I thank him for addressing this important Other sites are causing difficulty such as the old matter. This is not the first time I have raised this drums on the side of the hill, which were aban- issue in the House. I raise it this evening because doned by the company when mining ceased in the it is an urgent matter. We use the term “urgent 1980s. The areas known as the Garryard stockpile need” lightly, but I have placed this issue on the and the Garryard lagoon have both been iden- Adjournment because it is urgent that the tified as highly toxic. None of these have been Department of the Environment, Heritage and managed in a satisfactory manner. Local Government make a decision on the cur- The Statute of Limitations on clause K runs out rent plans before it on the company involved, next Tuesday, 30 November 2004 and we have a Mogul of Ireland, and its obligation under clause very serious situation on our hands. The latest K of the mining lease. Clause K of the mining plan submitted by the company is far from satis- lease, as it applies to Mogul of Ireland, is the only factory. The EPA, the county council, the techni- legal instrument available to the Department and cal advisors of the Gortmore environmental to the State to require the company to rehabili- action group and the SRK consultants have all tate those sites in the Silvermines area for which stated this to be the case. I am concerned that it is responsible. there might be a possibility that the Department The sites in question are the cause of major will discuss this plan with the company and that pollution. That is not my opinion; it has been the plan might proceed. 1381 Mine 24 November 2004. Sites 1382

I call on the Minister for Communications, ment with the additional information required Marine and Natural Resources to end this char- within a very short timeframe. As well as continu- ade with Mogul of Ireland. He must accept that ing concern about the lack of detail in the pro- this company will never carry out this rehabili- posals, there remains a high level of uncertainty tation in a satisfactory manner or in a manner that the company has the technical and financial that has the confidence of the community. I call capacity to rehabilitate all of the clause K sites on him to initiate proceedings against the com- for which they are responsible. pany for what is clearly a failure to rehabilitate The Minister for Communications, Marine and these sites. The company has failed to live up to Natural Resources is aware that Gortmore action its responsibility to the local community and has group is not satisfied with the proposals for Gort- caused a situation where there are a number of more. The Department previously met the group polluted sites. It has continued to accept a situa- and heard its concerns in Nenagh on 18 October tion where there are 147 acres in an eroded state 2004. The Department has offered to meet the causing major pollution in the Silvermines area group at an early date to ensure that its concerns and causing toxic dust to be blown around the will be fully reflected in a comprehensive report area. on a way forward. This report will set out clearly I call on the Department to initiate proceedings the Department’s view on the prospects of the against Mogul of Ireland and to ensure that this current dialogue with Mogul of Ireland delivering job of rehabilitation is given to some agency that the rehabilitation work to the satisfaction of all is ready to implement a plan as soon as possible. concerned. It will contain the Department’s We know that waste permits and waste licences judgement on whether the company has access to will be needed and that the whole framework of the considerable resources needed to carry out all environmental legislation will have to kick into of the rehabilitation work required under clause place before this can happen. There is a major K. The Minister has serious difficulties with any a concern about what will happen in the com- la carte approach to rehabilitation, whereby sites munity now that clause K is running out and no possibly requiring large financial resources may satisfactory plan has been developed. Who will not be rehabilitated while others are rehabilitated ensure that this community can live in a safe and as commercial opportunities may exist. clean environment after so many years of living The legal issues raised by the Statute of Limi- with pollution? tations have been the subject of discussions between the Department, the Office of the Chief Minister of State at the Department of State Solicitor and the Office of the Attorney Communications, Marine and Natural Resources General for some time. Following full consider- (Mr. Gallagher): I thank the Senator for raising this important issue. The then Minister for Trans- ation of all the issues, including legal advice, port, Deputy Brennan, standing in for my prede- documentation which will ensure compliance with cessor, covered the subject of the proposed the Statute of Limitations, among other matters, rehabilitation works required at Silvermines in will be served this week. The Minister, Deputy some detail in a previous Adjournment debate on Noel Dempsey, intends to continue the current 7 July 2004. Since that date, Mogul of Ireland dialogue with the company, at least until the com- lodged its revised proposals for rehabilitation of prehensive report to which I have referred is the clause K sites with the Department of given to the Department of Communications, Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. Marine and Natural Resources. In accordance with an agreed open and consulta- tive approach, these proposals were circulated to Ms O’Meara: The Minister of State said that all interested parties for comment. Following “documentation which will ensure compliance these consultations, areas of deficiency were iden- with the Statute of Limitations, among other tified and these were communicated to Mogul’s matters, will be served.” I understand what he consultants at a meeting on 23 September. This means when he says it “will be served”, but how was followed up more formally with a letter to can the continuation of dialogue be said to be a Mogul dated 27 September setting out the areas consequence of that? I understand that the serv- for which further clarification was required. ing of documentation creates a kind of cut-off Mogul was asked to respond by 29 October. It point. was impressed strongly on Mogul that it had to respond on time and to comprehensively address Mr. Gallagher: That may well be the case. The the requests in the Department’s letter. In the Department has been advised that it cannot con- event, the company’s response was received by tinue to engage in dialogue after the papers have the Department on 3 November. been served. It could be sub judice at that point. While the latest proposals submitted by Mogul It will continue its dialogue until the comprehen- of Ireland are a substantial improvement on those sive report has been delivered if that is helpful, previously submitted they continue to suffer from but it will be guided by its legal advisers when lack of specification and detail. These deficiencies deciding whether to continue. If it can continue I were pointed out to Mogul at a meeting held in think it should do so, because progress can be the Department on 19 November and Mogul has made when people are speaking to each other. to address these issues and revert to the Depart- Very little progress can be made if we are not 1383 Ambulance 24 November 2004. Service 1384

[Mr. Gallagher.] I am aware of his constant interest in the speaking to each other. I will keep the Senator improvement of ambulance and medical services advised in that regard. in Tuam and the surrounding area. The Western Health Board’s emergency and Ms O’Meara: I thank the Minister of State. patient transport ambulance service provides a service to over 353,000 people. The emergency ambulance service is provided from ten stations Ambulance Service. throughout the board’s catchment area. There Mr. Kitt: I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing has been a significant expansion of the service in me to raise this matter and the Minister of State, the last four or five years. Ten additional crews Deputy Brian Lenihan, for coming to the House. have been put in place, the number of 24-hour I have raised the need for an ambulance base and bases has increased from three to five and the a primary care unit in Tuam on a number of service’s hours of operation have increased sig- occasions with the Department of Health and nificantly across all bases. The board purchased Children and the former Minister for Health and six new high specification ambulances this year to Children, Deputy Martin. On 31 May last, the ensure first class facilities for pre-hospital emer- former Minister told me in a letter that he under- gency care patients. Two new rapid response stood that the Western Health Board was: vehicles have been introduced as back-up to the new fleet. The board has improved facilities at . . .developing proposals for the establishment ambulance stations in Ballina, Boyle, Clifden of a number of additional [ambulance] stations and Roscommon. in its functional area including the establish- Improvements in service delivery have been ment of a station at Tuam. These capital pro- facilitated by the use of development funds pro- posals will be considered by my Department in vided for that purpose to the board, which is con- conjunction with the Western Health Board tinuing its development programme for the ser- and in the context of capital priorities to be vice. I understand that the board is developing progressed in line with overall funding proposals for the establishment of a number of resources available in 2004 and beyond. additional ambulance stations in its functional The provision of ambulance bases at Tuam, Ach- area, including one at Tuam. The capital pro- ill and north Roscommon have been the Western posals will be considered by the Department of Health Board’s main priorities for some time. Health and Children and the Western Health The full package which was put together by the Board in the context of capital priorities to be health board in October 2002 included an ambul- progressed in line with overall available funding ance base, a primary care unit, a community resources. hospital to replace the Bon Secours Hospital and I assure the House that the Government is fully child care, respite care and day care units. committed to the development of the emergency It is right that the board considered the ambul- ambulance service. A great deal has been ance service as a priority, but no such service is achieved in that regard, but I recognise that much available in Tuam at present. There are two remains to be done. We need to maintain the pro- ambulances in Galway, there is one ambulance gress that has been made and to continue the pro- in Loughrea and one ambulance is on call from cess of service development, so that effective pre- Portiuncula Hospital in Ballinasloe. The lack of hospital emergency care is accessible to those an ambulance based in Tuam is an important who need it most, when and where it is required. issue in north Galway, south Mayo and west The primary care strategy document, Primary Roscommon. There is a fine health campus in the Care: A New Direction, outlines the Govern- town, on a seven-acre site that the health board ment’s vision for the development of integrated bought from the Bon Secours order. I give credit multidisciplinary primary care teams and net- to the former Minister for Health and Children, works which will enable clients to access a broad Deputy Martin, who allocated funds for the range of services in their local communities. The health campus. Two years on, however, I would strategy provides for the early establishment of like to see some development on the campus. initial primary care teams on the basis of the I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Brian model described in it. The future widespread Lenihan, for coming to speak on this matter. He implementation of the model will draw on experi- knows the relevant area of north Galway and ence gained through the development and oper- west Roscommon well because his late father rep- ation of the teams. resented it in the Da´il. I assure him that this issue The Department of Health and Children is of major concern. The people of the Tuam area sought proposals from the health boards in 2002 want some part of the health campus to be for the establishment of primary care teams, with developed. I hope the Minister of State can give a view to funding a number of projects. The me some information about developments in Western Health Board made two such proposals. that regard. Following discussions between the Department and the board, approval was granted for the Minister of State at the Department of Health development of a primary care team at Erris in and Children (Mr. B. Lenihan): I am glad Senator County Mayo. The board had proposed that a Kitt has raised this matter on the Adjournment. primary care team and network would cover the 1385 Rural Transport 24 November 2004. Services 1386

Tuam urban and rural areas. It had envisaged numbers availing of the service have continued that the Tuam team would be based in a purpose- to increase. built facility at the proposed Tuam health campus In most cases, passengers are picked up at their on the site of the former Bon Secours Hospital. It doors and taken to the nearest town for the pur- was not possible to approve such a development, pose of collecting their pensions, shopping, medi- however, having regard to the scale and costs cal appointments or social visits. They are associated with the proposed Tuam primary care returned to their doors several hours later. There team. has been unprecedented demand for the service. The primary care strategy states that the However, that has led to funding shortfalls, and development of primary care teams must involve providers are now being forced to cut back on the reorientation of existing staff and resources. several such very valuable services. The Department has asked the health boards to The need for the rural transport initiative and examine how existing primary and community the importance of the scheme are highlighted by care resources can best be reorganised to give research carried out by the Department of Trans- effect to the application of the teamworking con- port before the scheme began that showed that cept on a wider basis and to map out the locations 40% of people living in rural Ireland do not have to be served by primary care teams. When the access to even a basic bus or rail service. That is Health Service Executive is operational, it will be especially true of the western countries from responsible for building on the health board where I hail. Some 20% have never had access to initiatives to mainstream the development of pri- a car for shopping or health checks, and the most mary care teams as the core unit of service deliv- affected are the elderly, young people — for get- ery. The strategy acknowledges that the provision ting to and from work — those with illnesses and of modern, well-equipped and accessible prem- disabilities and those on low incomes. ises is central to the effective functioning of pri- An evaluation report published over the sum- mary care teams. One of the Government’s key mer on the rural transport initiative stated that in objectives is to facilitate and encourage the most parts of the country it has been very encour- development, where appropriate, of facilities in aging. In my own area, we have a few projects which the broad range of primary care services that have been extremely successful. From May can be delivered. While the State may contribute until the end of December 2003 in the Aughrim- towards such developments, it is intended to Kilmore rural transport area, there were 8,084 passengers. The figure for 2004 so far exceeds explore a range of different approaches to the 10,000, making it a major success. financing and provision of such facilities because of the scale of what will be required. The rural transport initiative has been described as the greatest single benefit for rural The Western Health Board has indicated that Ireland since the rural electrification programme the development of a new primary care centre in of the 1940s. The issue is that the Department of Tuam would constitute a regional priority. The Transport has not opted to mainstream the pro- board was unable to proceed with the develop- ject, despite the fact that the scheme has been ment this year, however, in light of the resources evaluated by outside consultants, who found it available for capital development. The position very worthwhile. Instead the Government has will be reviewed again in 2005 under the capital opted to leave it as a pilot project until 2006. investment framework, in the context of priorities The scheme was first announced in 2001, and for development under the care programme and three years on one asks why the Government will overall capital funding availability. not commit to it. The budget allocated to the scheme has not increased from \3 million annu- Rural Transport Services. ally since 2001, which is a cutback given the increased costs. The lack of funding has Mr. Feighan: I welcome the Minister of State prevented the scheme from expanding the to the House. I would like to know if additional number and frequency of services required, funding is available for the 34 important and suc- despite the great demand, especially in rural cessful rural transport initiatives throughout the areas. If it were in an urban area, a subsidy would country. It is estimated that it has cost approxi- be provided and it would be unacceptable for mately \9 million to administer the scheme since there to be cutbacks. It is unacceptable that such it was established in 2002. The scheme, which has cutbacks are occurring and I ask the Minister to improved the health and well-being of its users, redress the problems and provide funding for a has provided considerable social benefits which very valuable service. far outweigh its costs. The rural transport initiat- ive was established by the Department of Trans- Mr. B. Lenihan: The rural transport initiative, port on a pilot basis to provide transport to or RTI, has been under way since 2002 and is people in rural areas who were being excluded funded by the Department of Transport. Under because more conventional transport methods the scheme, funding is provided for 34 rural com- and services were not available, accessible or munity organisations around the country to afforded to them locally. By the end of 2003, over address the transport needs of their areas through 300,000 people had used an estimated 300 routes the provision of local transport services. Area in the 34 pilot areas throughout the country. The Development Management Limited, or ADM, 1387 The 24 November 2004. Adjournment 1388

[Mr. B. Lenihan.] prospective RTI groups put forward proposals for manages the RTI on behalf of the Department of co-financing and additional resources to be Transport. ADM has been fully responsible for secured from non-Exchequer sources was among the administration of the initiative, from the the operational criteria used to assess the original initial selection of the groups to be funded to the applications for funding. decisions regarding the specific annual allocations The RTI is now operational in virtually all to individual projects. counties, with some 2,500 transport services being Expenditure under the RTI was some \6 mill- provided on approximately 380 new rural routes ion in the two-year period ending in December established under the initiative. Some 20,000 2003. At that point the pilot initiative was due to people are currently using the RTI transport ser- end, but further funding of \3 million was allo- vices every month. In deciding on the extension cated to it for 2004 to facilitate a full appraisal of of the RTI to the end of 2006, the Minister for the initiative. On foot of the principal recom- Transport was conscious that many of the pilot mendation of the appraisal, the Minister for projects became fully operational only in 2003. Transport, Deputy Cullen, recently extended the He was also conscious of the fact that continuing initiative for a further two years. The Estimates the RTI to the end of 2006 will ensure that the provision for the RTI for 2005 is \3.1 million, an lifespan of the initiative will dovetail with the increase of 3%. That funding allocation of some scope of the National Development Plan 2000- \12 million over the life of the RTI to the end of 2006. The extension will facilitate a more compre- 2005 compares very favourably with the total of hensive appraisal of the effectiveness of the pilot \4.4 million earmarked for the RTI when it was initiative in addressing the transport needs of originally mooted in the National Development rural areas. It will enable the 34 projects further Plan 2000-2006. to explore models of transport provision and stra- It is understood that the RTI projects also tegically develop approaches to designing, plan- benefit each year from funding provided by the ning, co-ordinating, integrating, procuring and Department of Social and Family Affairs arising providing transport in areas where it was tra- from the application of the free travel scheme to ditionally considered difficult to do so. In provid- the RTI. In addition, ADM has informed the ing additional time for the RTI projects to mature Department of Transport that some RTI projects fully, the Minister is facilitating the emergence of are generating additional funds from the pro- models of best practice in the provision of rural vision of transport services to health boards and transport services in operational and organis- from other sources. From the outset, RTI projects ational management. have been encouraged to explore innovative ways in which their services can be partly financed The Seanad adjourned at 7.45 p.m. until from the local economy. The degree to which 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 25 November 2004.