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Lyor Cohen, YouTube 08 Dre London, London Ent 16 David Joseph, Universal Music 24 Carolyn Williams, RCA 32 Paul Rosenberg, Goliath Artists/Def Jam 36 Jon Platt, Warner/Chappell 40 Willard Ahdritz, Kobalt/AWAL 43 Jacqueline Saturn, Caroline 48 54 Dina LaPolt, LaPolt Law 62 Ib Hamad, Dreamville 68 Ghazi Shami, EMPIRE 74 Matt Pincus 80 Joie Manda, Interscope Geffen A&M 88 Eliah Seton, ADA 94 Steve Salm, Concord Music 99 II 104 Joyce Smyth 110 Tom Windish, Paradigm 116 Dietz, INgrooves 122 Holmes & Phil Harvey 127

6 7 : ‘I’ve always had the gift of “WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY AFTER being self-assured.’ A DIFFICULT PERIOD TO BUILD THE HEALTHIEST ECOSYSTEM Come on now. He doesn’t really here’s Lyor Cohen on Lyor Cohen. the major labels is partly a IN HISTORY.” need an introduction, does he? We get into it. The man, the reaction to that? A fear of what Lyor Cohen. It’s not hyperbole myth... and (as he sees it) the happens if gets too big? to suggest he’s one of the most- misunderstandings. It’s on the mind and the body talked about – and fiercely and the [of the industry]. message of reassurance in terms debated – music executives in Anybody who is in the business of the way YouTube intends to history. The thing is, he knows Congratulations on the of selling or streaming [content] work with artists? exactly what you say about him. international launch of has to recognize that diversity I don’t look at the competition. The good and the . YouTube Music. Do you think in distribution is their greatest I don’t spend an iota of a That stands whether you’re a the reputational tide has now offensive and defensive tool. second doing that. And I don’t supporter – one of those who turned for YouTube in When distribution is too know the details [of Spotify’s laud him for being sure-footed, industry? consolidated, it becomes a much direct licensing] – I’ve seen the determined or ruthlessly fighting I’m in my own bubble. And in different scenario. That’s very headlines but the devil’s in the for his artists during his three that bubble, the answer is yes. obvious. Of course my spiel on detail. What I do know, and this decades in the hotseats of Rush/ this feels self-serving, but now it’s I’ve been saying this for a while Def Jam, /Alphabet is ultimately getting actual context. – when are you going to write and . a very ad-driven company. In Listen, [the Spotify fallout] it?! – is that if there is a healthy And it stands whether 2017, over 84% of its revenue [no doesn’t make me happy in any diversification in distribution, all you’re a detractor – one of less than $27.2bn from $32.3bn] shape or form; I want us as a hands get put on the table [ie. those who dismiss him as a came from its ad businesses. community of music people there’s no way to hide problematic, self-aggrandizing, or Do you feel you have the full to find, nurture, discover the from each other]. unnecessarily truculent force in weight of Google’s support next , or Someone could only do recent music biz lore. when it comes to selling Jay-Z. That’s where our efforts that kind of thing [Spotify’s He knows it all. subscriptions? should be, not in fixing structural direct artist licensing] – and, We discovered this fact during a If you listen to the leadership here problems. again, I don’t know the details lengthy conversation with Cohen – and there are public statements We have the opportunity after – when they feel like they have which ostensibly occurred to about this – subscription is a huge a long, difficult period to actually a comfortable, unrestricted promote the fact that YouTube priority at this company. In terms build the healthiest ecosystem and unfettered lead in the Music is now available on iOS and of wider Google support, I feel it. ever created in the history of the marketplace. If there was a Android in multiple countries. Music is a universal language music industry. The physical good healthy environment of real Yet our discussion took a and it’s very scalable worldwide; was an absolute disaster – it was competition, I suspect it would be slightly unexpected turn. that’s music to the ears [of great for a period of time, but a different story. Lurking in the background Google’s leaders]. we’re now liberated from the from the kick-off was always expense of it, an expense which The positive conclusion to that question: why, when Google You’ve spoken previously about artists, consumers and labels had that, then: you obviously feel desired to improve its the music business needing to to pay for. there’s enough room left in this fractious relationship with the be careful about backing one One of the things I say to the streaming market for YouTube music business, did it hire a horse in the streaming race too music industry is this: the sooner Music to challenge the No.1? person with Cohen’s pugnacious aggressively, and the backlash we shed the bunker mentality, I don’t believe this is a winner- reputation? that might result from doing the PTSD, the better. takes-all category. Not that I read And why, when all’s said and so. In the past fortnight, we’ve We should focus on how we the Goldman Sachs or Credit done, does that reputation exist heard about Spotify directly get more artists to invest in a Suisse [reports] but they’re in the first place? licensing artists – and a huge musical career. I think we’ve lost talking about how nascent music So here is Lyor Cohen on fallout ensuing at the labels. a lot of really talented musical subscription is, and they’re right. subjects that include (i) what We’re starting to see that people during [the past decades], I think Google has a history of it’s like to work at Google; (ii) backlash, no? and I’m excited to see how the not being first to [market] and Spotify’s recent direct licensing The timing is impeccable! It’s business evolves now. learning a lot from first entrants in shenanigans; (iii) YouTube Music’s like, wow. order to build great products. market advantage; and (iv) The industry seems quite This [YouTube Music] took a ’s entry into music. Do you think the support paranoid about Spotify’s direct village of people to [make] – a But, perhaps more memorably, YouTube Music is getting from licensing. Do you have any bunch of really smart people. 8 9 Lyor interviews at a YouTube event in London, February 2018 YouTube Music has heavily backed stars such as J Balvin

What’s your hope for the amount [Long pause] Emphatically, yes. any [licensing agreement with a I first went to . For Be careful what you wish for. It’s mission-critical. We are of subscribers you want by the Because it helped stimulate the ‘blind check’] sets the industry a second, I thought I would meet Distribution and tight curation seeing a bounce in our business, end of the year, and by the end success we’re now seeing. back in terms of the spirit of a bunch of people who would was eviscerated [by streaming], but I don’t think it gets fully of next year? The fastest-growing category where we’re trying to get to. say, ‘Could I take a selfie with and now you have a billion bands realized until the impresario, the We don’t talk about numbers, but of subscription globally is In the content world, where you? Great you joined us, but your swimming around your ankles. unemployable, roams once again. I know definitely on Monday we’ll music, primarily because of that artists get paid, clearly we need industry didn’t evolve, so they got How do you know which one is That Jamaican who signed have more subscribers than we [decision]. And there are lots of to have well-organized data pools what was coming to them.’ right for you? and Bob Marley; that trumpet did on Friday. ways for us to iterate. driving good understanding of I didn’t get any of that. The This is one of the great player that signed The Police... The fact the industry now Maybe my daughter, who loves how things are being monetized. whole place is littered with challenges for the next iteration you’re gonna see some of the new recognizes that we heard them, the hits and doesn’t have a job, music junkies who are deeply of our business. One of the impresarios team up with money and the fact that the product is will pay, I don’t know, $3, just You’ve poached Tuma Basa passionate about being a part of efforts we’re trying to make, and to build out their businesses. so good, you’ll feel in the [to access] the hits. Maybe she from Spotify – the guy who built the music industry and being net you’ve seen it with the release They’re absolutely necessary marketing campaign, which is doesn’t want The Doors. There are RapCaviar into a great success. contributors to its success. of our charts and official artist and I’m looking forward to seeing the biggest in YouTube’s history. a ton of options. How well-resourced are you channels, is helping [the industry] it happen. I don’t think we’d be able to to hire more of these leading there are 20,000+ develop their talent and find their spend that type of money if the According to MBW sources, industry figures? new tracks being uploaded consumers. This is a question that probably product wasn’t great. Facebook has signed a deal with You asked earlier: do we have the to subscription streaming I wouldn’t say that code has doesn’t get asked enough: are music rights-holders where it’s support [from Google]? What services a day. On the one hand, been cracked; this is an evolution. you in good health [Cohen was Obviously YouTube has some paying a ‘blind check’ for two you mention now is a perfect that speaks to the amazing hospitalized after suffering a advantages over Spotify in terms years of licensing – ie. with of that support. So the democratization of music that’s You’ve previously spoken about pulmonary embolism in 2016]? of its catalogue. But with 99.9% necessity to provide detailed answer, again, is an emphatic yes. been happening in the past few the ‘rise of the independents’ – And are you enjoying your new of all music licensed across every reporting on the use of tracks. Please do not be surprised years. On the other hand, how the fact that the music business, corporate life? streaming app, differentiation Do you find that deal odd after when we populate YouTube’s the hell do you properly break a in your eyes, is now wide open I’m in excellent health. I’m a little is difficult. Do you think the YouTube got so much stick music business crew with the new artist in that blizzard? for a new wave of entrepreneurs overweight, and I have to really industry made the right decision from the industry despite its finest and brightest people. A beautiful question – and the to come through. Is that focus on that – metabolism – licensing the entirety of its investment in Content ID? One of the greatest joys I question I want to talk most happening? And will it be a good because I’m getting older. But library when streaming began? In my mind, personally, I think discovered [at Google] was when about with the industry. thing for the music business? generally I’m in, like, bizarrely

10 11 excellent health; the lowest used to go to the same nightclub I keep telling them: ‘You’re only possible cholesterol you could we all went to in the early ‘80s – making me bigger! Slag me off, have, the lowest blood pressure “WE’RE TREATING Red Parrot. but I’m still here, I’m still growing, you could have. It’s insanity. I have MUSIC INDUSTRY AS an era where the I’m still building!’ to take blood thinners, but so do gangstas came in full-length I don’t know why you’d want a lot of people. CUSTOMERS. AND IF mink, big chains and to do that to someone – we just Am I enjoying this? Very much WE DON’T TREAT everything. Fat Cat [Lorenzo laugh about it. so, because I’m mission-focused Nichols] would always come and People that really know me and I’m on my mission. THEM PROPERLY, sit in a corner, quietly. aren’t surprised [by how I am I had two fears at 300: no hits, THEY’LL FIND All the other gangstas came in in reality]. This is a sociological and consolidation of distribution. and made sure everybody knew class course in imagining who Fortunately we had some hits, SOMEONE ELSE – who they were. But the whole someone is, and then finding out which has now allowed me to go WE’LL LOSE THE night, people would be saying who they really are – when people and try to tackle my biggest fear. [whispers cautiously]: ‘Fat Cat’s in have to completely alter their This is a bizarre situation in CUSTOMER.” the corner.’ mindset on you. many ways because many of The quiet discovery of Fat Cat the headlines [when Cohen first was much more powerful than The I ask this stuff joined YouTube] were about: days when you could buy any of the behavior of the [other] is because there’s a slight ‘How is this highly competitive, labels, [stick] a on MTV gangstas. dichotomy between the story rough guy supposed to bring and, because [labels] owned In many ways, my being off Atlantic’s Julie Greenwald told harmony [to the industry vs distribution, get great placement the beaten path created this me of Lyor Cohen, her bearish Google]?’ in the stores... we want to [industry story] of ‘Lyor is the mentor – her professional Well, a lot of journalists didn’t understand what’s critical to Israeli Mossad’, as well as Lansky* protector – and the things some read the fine print. you today.’ references, all these stories. other people have said about It’s fascinating to me to walk We’re treating [the industry] It was very interesting; the more how contentious you have been. into all these offices of people I’ve as customers. And if we don’t I went into [the music industry] That myth happened because worked with for so many years treat them properly, they’ll find the more I had to live up to being I was never invited to all these and have them see me in this someone else – we’ll lose the this hard dude. industry functions [when Cohen context. It’s a really interesting customer. [Meyer Lansky, aka ‘the Mob’s was at Def Jam in the ‘80s], dynamic [laughs]! That’s a nuance that has been Accountant’ was a notorious because we were outside of the Now, they understand: ‘Oh my highly impactful. Jewish-American figure in traditional music business. God, what he says is absolutely organized crime who built a I always tell people, ignorance the case.’ You mentioned that you were gambling empire in the 1940s.] is bliss. I had no idea about the At first, they were more: ‘Oh my aware of those headlines: ‘How UJA benefits, the City of Hope – I Atlantic’s Julie Greenwald God, what’s actually happening is Lyor the rough guy supposed You feel like your music wasn’t invited for a long time! here?!’ to bring harmony to YouTube industry legend was being So when I came on the scene Springsteen had the full rack and I definitely want there to be a fair vs. The music business?’ Do you written for you? and I started to get invited to was No.1. fight. I believe it will be better for Presumably these were people think that story is bit reductive? Yes. I’m sorry to burst everybody’s these things, I was an outsider. The correlation was so obvious! music and for artists. used to fighting with you, The fact people paint you as this bubble. You come to my house, I Those numbers were being But I also want the music competing with you, in your domineering character? don’t have a platinum plaque on How did that make you feel? augmented by people! [industry] impresario to label days. Yeah, but I’ve been dealing with or any of those things. how did it shape your attitude? That burnt in my head. And come back more than . Actions speak louder than this ‘narrative of Lyor’ for a long You wouldn’t know this is Lyor Remember when Chuck D when I finally got invited to the could imagine. I want colorful words. time. [the industry bigshot]. said, ‘Who gives a f*ck about a Grammys and watched Run DMC characters in this business. Where This is really important: For a For 15 years [at Def Jam], I’d I have many parts to me; I Goddamn Grammy’? go oh-for-five, that also had a big are they today? You tell me. long time, we [YouTube], were been dominating rap music and celebrate Shabbat, I’m a father, I When I was a Road Manager [in impact on me. Go to a music industry event a deal-making organization. We nobody knew me. My business love sports. People are shocked Cohen’s early career], I’d always It’s not that I’m a rebel. It’s and [scan] the room. made a deal and got the rights... partner [] loved when I tell them I don’t wake up go to the retail stores. It was just... some of these things burnt Fifteen years ago, that same then came back three years later. being the lighting rod so I didn’t every single day diving on the regularly part of the promotion inside of me that de- room would have been mind- When you don’t see someone have to do it. [business] opportunity. for Run DMC or the emphasize the [traditional music blowing: Charlie Minor, Jerry regularly and then they – lawyers I was still in the age of I’ve always been happy. My to show up and do an in-store. industry machinery]. Moss, , Ahmet or deal-makers – just come back awkwardness then; not a kid but parents were amazing parents. When they were doing Ertegun, Chris Blackwell, David in for your rights, there’s a lot of not an adult either. I never felt They instilled in all of us the signatures, I would go look at Are we getting to the Geffen... Wow! misunderstanding and paranoia really comfortable being [‘the lifelong gift of being self-assured. the rack. And there were so of why you are enjoying Take a look now, man. that can happen. face’ of Def Jam]. There are magazines which many times there was hardly a yourself now? This idea of But when you see someone But then I realized something. still today spend an enormous Beastie Boys record available [on democratization, nobody being This interview was originally saying: ‘Hey, we know breaking Fat Cat, one of the most notorious amount of energy on me, and I the shelves], even though it was in control of the music business published on MBW in June 2018. an act has changed from the gangstas of all time [in ], don’t even pay them any mind. No.38 [on the chart]. But Bruce anymore? It has been edited for length. 12 13 14 15

WMG_MBWspread_final.indd 1 10/29/18 12:55 PM Dre London: ‘My ambition? To build an empire....’

The world’s biggest recording artist in the first half of 2018 was . We know this because the Texan /rapper – real name Austin Post – was ’s biggest act in the six month period; and Universal, in turn, was the globe’s biggest recorded music company. Malone’s second , beerbongs & bentleys, became a phenomenon after being released in April, smashing worldwide (and US) Spotify records for day-one and week- one streams. Since then, history has continued to be re-written: Malone’s debut album, , recently surpassed its 77th week in the Top 10 of Billboard’s Top R&B/Hip-Hop chart, beating ’s Thriller Post Malone for the longest all-time run. As you’d expect, this level of at a “mansion” – where the rent Festival. What’s more, Malone is fame wasn’t always writ large in was largely being covered by launching his own Posty Fest in Malone’s . a semi-professional YouTube Dallas this October, headlined by Four years ago, he was sharing commentator of build-’em-up none other than another man of a house in Encino, L.A crammed video game Minecraft. the moment, . with professional video game London knew that he’d As for Dre London, he’s sitting streamers and other bumped into stardom, and he side-saddle with his superstar entertainers. wasn’t going to let go. The Brit client, while dedicating any spare And it was here that Dre professionally pursed Malone and, energy to up-and-coming acts London walked into his life. within a few months, the feeling like the hotly-tipped , London’s own journey to this became mutual. who has attracted widespread point had been a bumpy ride: the “I think he saw that I had the buzz across the major labels. south London-born exec landed hustle, as well as the passion and MBW recently caught up in New York on a plane from belief in him – what it would take with London to ask him all Heathrow in 2008 with dreams of to make it,” says London. “Because about the risks he’s taken in his making it big – but he had to wait that’s really what it takes to get career, the rise of Post, how he his turn. to the top of today – deals with managing a global The entrepreneur started it takes a magnetic, non-stop megastar – and striking the right making his name by representing energy.” balance between operating the likes of and Today, Post Malone is busy independently and hooking up British rapper Cerose in NYC, entering the stratosphere: having with industry partners... but nothing quite clicked like he kicked off a 28-date city tour in envisaged. April, the rapper then made his London eventually wound up way round Europe, including two Let’s go back to the start. What in L.A, where he met Post Malone dates at the UK’s Reading/Leeds was your upbringing like? 16 17 I was born in south London, King’s money on the weekends, and I I learned that you have to College Hospital. I grew up in used to collect records; Eric B and focused on your goals, and Brixton Hill at first, then Angell Rakim was the first record I ever remember what you came for. town [in Brixton, London]. bought. It’s hard sometimes because When I got to early teens, we there are so many speed bumps, moved to [nearby] Catford and I You boarded a plane from and [success] is so far away that went to a school close to Bromley London to New York in 2008, you feel like you won’t make it. called Kelsey Park. I didn’t get to with dreams of making it in the But I was creating relationships; finish school – I got kicked out States. I had built up a network of people right by the time of my exams. Yeah, I had a UK rap artist called in the music industry in New I remember Mr. Vickers, the Cerose, and I believed that I could York. And I’d already worked on one who kicked me out of school. take him to America and make stuff with French Montana, with They called me a big instigator, him big. , and certain [other] hip- but they didn’t even have I took him to New York and... hop artists that were booming at the time. I was able to executive produce “WHEN I LEFT , I SOLD MY HOUSE records that turned out on Hot 97 [radio]. That gave me the AND VOWED I WASN’T GOING TO TURN BACK. foundations to do what I’m doing I WAS IN AMERICA FOR ABOUT FOUR YEARS today. WITH NO GREEN CARD OR SOCIAL SECURITY.” What lessons did you learn from working with French Montana? That happened in the early days anything crazy on me. I learned a few things. The artist when I wanted to get him on a I thought the world was caving that I came with [started] going feature for [Cerose], and from in after not getting those GCSE back and forth to the UK. I there we built a friendship. results, that life was over. But decided that I was going to stay, What I learned from him Signing to Jody Gerson at UMPG in 2015 getting kicked out of school and battle for this American was: this game is a hustle. It’s made me become a man. I had dream – to see if it was real. an absolute hustle. And no in the house while I was out at It was, not exactly a lonesome record. He had people doing little to grow up very, very fast. I remember hitting rock matter what, you’ve got to stay L.A, it just happened – he knew I time, but a time where me and engineering tweaks and stuff, but Growing up in south London bottom in New Jersey not long consistent. wanted to manage him, and he Post had to strap up our , he produced most of the beats definitely made me tough, and I after that, actually; I stayed on Consistency, above all, is why he said, “I want you to manage me.” strap up our laces and get going. and everything. It felt like we were learned a few lessons; It prepared this girl’s couch for two weeks is where he is. I think he saw that I had the Then he started living in a on to something. me for where I am today. because I had nowhere else to go. hustle, as well as the passion house in the Pacific Palisades – a He just kept recording, and kept It made me ... what’s that song People back were saying The gap in the story is you and belief in him – what it would house with a studio. He didn’t recording, and kept recording, by Ben E King? Street Tough. It like, “Dre, shit’s hitting the fan. If arriving in LA and then meeting take to make it. Because that’s that place. making songs. He made songs made me street tough. you’re running out of money, you Post in 2014... really what it takes to get to the during that era that ended up on can go home. You were doing I took a trip to L.A for the top of the game today; it takes a That was where the music career the first album [Stoney] a year- How would you describe your good in the UK, bro.” Grammys. I was already telling magnetic, non-stop energy. really started? and-a-half later. character back then? It was both the lowest and best my guys in New York that I was As soon as you have the passion The creation started in the house There was definitely a rebellious point of my career, because my gonna stay out in LA. and the hunger, the drive, things in Encino, so by the time he got I saw that video of him recently side but there was a curious side back was completely against the A month prior to [Dre’s arrival], happen. [to Pacific Palisades], he already singing and playing don’t Think too. And I was very much into wall. Post had just moved there. His had his sound. ... by Bob Dylan. Clearly, football. When I left England, I sold my friend was a gamer on YouTube Who lived in this mansion? He was vulnerable at this time, There’s a side to Post Malone When I was young I used to house and vowed I wasn’t going who played Minecraft. I’d never There were a few producers, and a lot of artists will understand that lots of people don’t know. play for South London [teams]. I to turn back. I was in America heard of anyone being able to but mainly it was the gamers that; he was basically living and Bro, that’s so true! was playing [for] Crystal Palace for about four years with no commentate on video games, who were paying this crazy rent. working for a couple When I met him in 2014, he at a young age, but I had to stop green card and no social security and earn money off of that, but I knew it was only a matter of of months. was already . I have old playing around 13. number, living off what I had left. he was doing it. time before it would all come And I remember, in November recordings of him and he could I had a light injury and I was So I went to this mansion in tumbling down. 2014, he made a song called really rap. But at night he would supposed to do physio but I What did you learn then that Encino – I was introduced by a When the gamers started White Iverson. When I heard it, I drink big glasses of 40’s Olde didn’t finish it – I started smoking would benefit you now? guy from England to come to this leaving, the rent started falling was in my car driving to Fairfax. English [malt liquor] and make spliffs instead. I learned, Dre, don’t . You house. I met Post and I just knew mostly on Post’s best friend. So I remember hitting the steering his own beats or pick up the After that, this love for music listen to all the different voices he had a crazy talent. pretty soon it was like, “Okay, wheel saying, “Wow.” He was like, guitar. You would see him play came through. I used to DJ at in your head and all the different Within four to six months of everyone’s going to move out. The “What?” everything from Sublime to Bob family functions and things to get people that have opinions. But me going back and forth, staying lease is gonna be up.” He produced most of the Dylan, all these songs. He’d just 18 19 turned 19 years old but his soul hitting the clubs, so the radio definitely changed now, turning was so old. had no choice but to play it. And more towards the artist having I started wondering how could when that started happening, “WHEN I GOT TO their own ownership. we mix the two; how could you labels were going crazy and a AMERICA IN 2008, I Even if they’re on a label, take this guy who has this whole bidding war broke out. that label has to partner on the Bob Dylan thing, thing, This is the biggest thing for HAD THIS LITTLE ownership because streaming and mix up all of that with the me: I remember when I got to BLACK BOOK FULL has gotten so powerful. hip-hop thing and get it right? America [in 2008], I had this little We definitely look different now And in the last few months of black book full of all the [music OF MUSIC INDUSTRY from our [record] deal three years 2014, in the studio, it all came biz] people I wanted to meet. PEOPLE I WANTED ago, with [Post] becoming one of together. And now 75% of the people in the highest streaming artists in that book were calling me about TO MEET.” the world. When did White Iverson start Post. kicking off? I think it was on It was exciting, but I knew Post And, don’t forget, Universal’s SoundCloud? was precious gold. We didn’t done it ourselves? biggest money-making artist of We put it on SoundCloud – it was want to just give it away. Yeah, I remember telling Post the first six months of 2018... early February, 2015. He tweeted before all of this that we could do Yep! [Republic’s] Monte Lipman it and it got a few [retweets], Who was in the 75%? it ourselves, that it might take a said to me the other day, “Dre, from people like Mac Miller – Everyone, bro! I had Atlantic’s little bit longer, but it was going you remember 2015, you told me who said, ‘Wow, this song is fire’, , who to happen. I’m not saying I have this kid’s gonna be the biggest and another artist called Key!, I always wanted to meet when any regrets because everything thing in the world? How do you then . Then Complex I had their names written on a happened the way it happened. feel now?” Smiling from ear to ear named it like, song of the year. piece of paper. And I still believe when you bro! But I do tell everybody, “Don’t You have to remember was Steve Barnett at have a [major label] machine think that, as a manager, you’re was no at this time Capitol – Capitol were the first [to partnering with you, it can take gonna sign an artist to a label and – it was still all about iTunes. And approach Post], actually. Then things to another level, because just expect everyone is going to Spotify was really still a European there was too; literally they have all of the offices work round the clock for you. You, thing. So SoundCloud was a everybody was calling. worldwide. as the manager, have got to move discovery zone for millions of kids; the mountains.” and those kids today are now What was it about Republic At what point did Universal Be nice, say yes, please, thank streaming records [on various that tipped you in their Publishing and Jody Gerson you, kiss babies, shake hands and platforms] all across America. direction – and also tipped come into the picture? make good relationships. It all So this [SoundCloud] thing you in the direction to not stay After White Iverson started doing starts with you. was a pivotal moment for ? really well, lots of publishers Without all that stuff, you will music industry which we didn’t ended up doing 14 shows in four from 2015 onwards. People think They had all the right started wanting to get involved. never, ever make it. Because a even realize at the time. We were days. that it happened overnight; it partnerships, and to be honest Some wanted to be involved label can only do so much. If the doing what felt right; and, for me, didn’t. they broke the barrier. Post said, before, but I believed in waiting. manager really believes it, it can that meant promoting the fuck What was the plan after White “If I’m gonna sign, I want a million I have to give it to her; happen – otherwise, it’s a false out of that SoundCloud link like Iverson? Was it difficult, once you built all dollars.” And I’m like, okay. Jody Gerson was there in the start. there was no tomorrow. We came with another record of that independently, to sign It wasn’t just the money, beginning. I promised her then called Too Young, and people with a label? How did Republic though, it was that Republic had that I would not turn my back I’m taking it there will come If you were chasing the money at were like, Whoa! convince you that was the right the pizazz and they had the right on her when the whole bidding a day when Post will get the time you might have tried to In the record he talks about life, step to take? promo team. We thought, Okay, war started. And she stuck to copyrights back. Just from what force people onto iTunes – killing saying, “I don’t want to die too I think by September [2015] we they want to take this record and her word, did everything she you were saying before. Is that a the SoundCloud link – like some young.” It resonated. had a lot of label interest and take it to the next level. promised. She agreed to wait nice motivation? other people did at the time. People were calling me and [White Iverson] started playing on They had an A&R, Tyler Arnold, until Post was armored up, Another big question! Yo, you slid Exactly. It wasn’t until days later telling me [it was affecting them] the radio because we had done who was jumping over fences had his lawyer and all the stuff that question in there so smooth when it was having 20 or 30 – Hustlers from uptown New York, so well. to stay around – coming to after together, before moving forward. [laughs]! Yeah, I’m sure there thousand plays a day that [Post] Spanish people, people from I remember I picked Post up parties, shows in Toronto... he just She’s like our aunt in this game; is a time when he will. Moving was like, “We need to put this on the black areas through to the from the airport one time and he stayed on it. auntie Jody! forward, we’re looking to start his TuneCore and we need to put this suburban areas. asked me, “What did you do?!” We liked the vibe of him, we own label and stuff. out [on download sites].” That helped put the stamp on, He thought I like, paid someone knew he was the right person, With all these deals now, do you I mean, Jay-Z got his copyrights It just kept snowballing. We Okay, this kid is not just a one hit under the table or something, and we decided to go with them. feel that you’re getting a fair cut back. If you want to get them went to in wonder. Without even knowing some form of a hustle to try and of all the streaming money? back, you can figure out a way to March of 2015. I only booked four it, we’d started growing a cult get White Iverson on the radio. Are you pleased with that What a question! Yeah, I do. get them back. But artists today or five shows and by the time following. It was definitely hard But it wasn’t that: [the song] decision now? Do you ever get Obviously renegotiating and are definitely holding on to their I got there I was hustling. He work to keep the snowball going had killed the internet, it started the pang of like, Could we have stuff [has helped].The game has intellectual property more. 20 21 Have you noticed that the power To sort through all the BS. in this industry has moved back Because there’s so much BS in towards the artist? “THERE HAS TO BE this business sometimes. Oh, hell yeah. Majorly. SOME SORT OF There’s also too much noise out With the new artists that I’ve there today, with so much music signed, I haven’t signed them HONESTY LAYER TO coming all the time. onto any label yet and they’ve LETTING PEOPLE There has to be some sort of started streaming well – making honesty layer to let people know, good money. The artist has the KNOW THAT NOT not everything is good. Because, power of going and signing a EVERY MUSIC as we all know, there is a lot of deal, or not doing any kind of deal average music out there. So if like that. There’s no hurry. [RELEASE] IS GOOD.” I had a magic wand, I would I think more about my artists’ launch a kind of filter system to intellectual property today than help with that. ever before. It’s worth so much I also respect Diddy, who more, because of these streaming worked his way up from intern at Do you feel like managers are services. Uptown Records, hustling his way taking more of a front seat in the I know where I want to go to where he is today. A&R process? with this company [London Richard Branson was also one Thank you for asking that. Yes! Entertainment]. I have a couple of of those people because he There are those A&Rs at labels other artists I’m developing, and came from England and built [everybody] respects, like Tunji we’re getting ready to gear up an amazing worldwide business. [Balogun] at RCA or Orlando and launch on our label. Same with Simon Cowell because [Wharton] at Atlantic. he’s another person that left But then, in my view, you also Can you give us a little bit of from England, came to America, have managers who are great information about your label? and built a brand that means A&Rs – look at Coach K who’s I don’t want to give away too something to people. done , as an example. He much because I want it to have I remember meeting Richard and they have changed culture. the right launch. But I can tell you Branson in my first year of moving I would commend those guys that artists are working on things to New York. We were at a club, [Quality Control] more today than every day here. a private event, I thought, Damn, they are. They’re not commended Post already has an artist that I look up to this guy; his whole enough. he wants to launch, and go with Virgin camp, everything he did. The music industry rule book first. It’s very exciting times for us. All of a sudden, I’m shaking has been torn to shreds. Now, We’re having fun with it. It’s not Richard Branson’s hand and the manager is doing everything about pressure. telling him that I hope some of it – from branding, to social, to rubs off on me. I still hope it did. A&R’ing the record itself. If you could go back and greet I also have to say, I met Kanye in yourself when you stepped off 2016, and it was great experience. What are your ambitions? that plane in New York in 2008, Over the course of a year or two To build an empire out of a what would you say? from then, just seeing him and his boutique. We understand That’s a good question. One of fearless way of not giving a fuck, marketing now, we can put out my number one slogans: “Victory and going all the way for what he our own records, and we can loves preparation.” believes in – whether it be music build and develop artists. or fashion – and changing culture. We’re going to keep putting out Who do you look up to in the That’s inspiring. great content, and we want to be music business, and who gives And Pharrell always gives me covering every side from music to you the best advice? good advice; he’s very good at television, movies, fashion... there’s I look up to Jay-Z massively – I seeing things from a different some crazy stuff that I have lined saw him take his whole life from angle and critiquing it. Or just up in the next few months that is one thing to a number of other saying a few words to me that gonna blow people away. places. I’ve watched his whole stick with me for a long time. I’m trying to build the LVMH of career come up from being a our era. rapper in , and a hustler If I could give you a magic wand, at the same time; outside the to change something about This interview originally boardroom and then into the the music business today, what appeared on MBW in boardroom. would it be and why? September 2018. 22 23 David Joseph: ‘We creatively empower our artists globally. I’m proud of that.’

David Joseph’s neighbors must they’re not there anymore. Jobs Blake, , Years & be used to it by now. like this last for a period of time in Years and Hozier. Stroll past the Universal UK your life, they cannot last forever. And he’s quick to remind the boss’s house at the right hour on So if you’re going to do it, you industry that the old barometer the right evening, and you’ll spot need to throw yourself into it.” of ‘breaking’ in the UK market – him huddled in the driver’s seat Right now, Joseph is throwing namely, 100,000 album sales in of his Mini – thumbs blazing at his himself into perhaps the most an act’s first year – is beginning to Blackberry. Some nights, he can complex and taxing era in look dustily archaic. be there for 45 minutes. music business history – one “Today you can’t really say Such stationary graft is the that seldom lays on cuddles and where you are after a year with result of a stringent personal kindness to those whose job it is a new artist, maybe even two,” rule: no emails are dispatched to safeguard the prosperity of a he says. “The less young I get, inside Joseph’s home during the major record company. the more bored I become with precious few workday hours he Ever since Joseph took the industry chatter about whether cordons off to spend with his Chairman & CEO position at things are working or not based wife and his three children each Universal Music UK in 2008, his on short periods of time. week. Twelve feet away from the “Because of the way the front door, though, is just about market’s changing, maybe at this acceptable. stage we really have to look back Joseph admits that he’s “not “TODAY, YOU CAN’T over two or three albums, five to the greatest switcher-offer in REALLY SAY WHERE seven years, to judge whether the world”, and that, bar his something’s actually worked. And family, Universal (aka the travails YOU ARE AFTER you know what? Maybe that’s of the world’s biggest record A YEAR WITH A amazing.” company) occupies his gray There are a few instances during matter round the clock. NEW ARTIST.” our chat where Joseph does this: “Some people are into cars, or verbally alchemizing what could go to the football to switch off – be seen as a troubling trend for that’s not me,” he says. “But when paramount priority has been the British music business into a you’re with your family, you need breaking new British artists. thrilling opportunity. to be 100% present. That’s not In the near-decade since then, But there’s one industry habit my great guide to parenting or his stable has been responsible he doesn’t make light of, and anything; it’s just what I need to for some of the most culturally which leaves him visibly annoyed: do to stay sane.” and commercially significant those wishing ill on rivals’ In the rest of his waking breakthroughs of recent years campaigns across Kensington hours, Joseph is contemplating – from to High Street. Universal, its near-term and Mumford & Sons, , Joseph admits that he long-term evolution, the state and Florence + The considers himself one of the of its roster – and how to Machine. most competitive people in the outmaneuver those who are While Joseph acknowledges global industry today – up there fixated on snaffling slivers of that Universal’s latest crop of with a certain Sir Lucian (more on market share from its grasp. fledgling stars might not yet have him later). But, he says, he never “I probably think about this graduated from green shoots indulges in outright criticism of company, our artists and our to full-on blossom, he remains others’ acts. records to a point that’s a little bit proudly confident in the potential That holds up during our unhealthy,” admits Joseph. “But of acts such as Mabel, Sigrid, Loyle discussion: he has particularly I’ve seen people who’ve done this Carner, Dermot Kennedy, Jessie nice things to say about the job before at other companies Reyez, and Grace likes of and and have not been completely Carter – as well as the next steps , whose Moon Shaped immersed in it – and, to be frank, for artists such as , James Pool continues to earn repeat

24 25 listens in his headphones a year after release. “Competition is good – I’m fiercely competitive and it’s healthy,” he says. “But if you spend any of your energy willing an artist to fail, or – even worse – actually telling ‘influencers’ why you think an artist should fail, that’s not a culture I want to be a part of. “Spending time negatively worrying about someone else; I can’t see how that becomes healthy for an individual – let alone if that individual is passing that culture on to a team around them.” Elements of Joseph’s make-up are strikingly unconventional for an executive in his position at a $5bn+ corporation. And we’re not just talking about the fact he drives a Mini, nor the box-fresh white Converse he tends to wear on his feet. Joseph grew up in Southgate, Joseph’s father, Lawrence Joseph – aka Laurie Jay Picking up a BAFTA for Amy in 2016 north London, in the late 1970s as one of two twin boys – the and there were always lots of professional matters to invade his indebted to someone for a life in in 1990, Joseph was tasked with that. I was really happy at RCA – product of a proudly working cousins running around. It was a family’s domestic cocoon. music, it’s him.” getting the masses interested in but before long there was some class Jewish family. Unlike some great upbringing.” It was largely through his You can perhaps see why, Sonic The Hedgehog – and he change afoot.” others in the upper echelons of He remembers with fondness father’s gifts from the road, when Joseph landed his first job immediately gravitated towards That change was manifested UK corporate life, he didn’t go a gaggle of cousins and aunties says Joseph, that he inherited in the business at RCA in the music and alternative culture to when Goldsmith quit RCA to boarding school in the Shires; arriving each Saturday, creating a a fascination for music and early nineties, he took a minute make it happen. to launch Innocent Records he attended the comprehensive joyous racket by singing raucous, musicians. to tell his family. That job came First he teamed up the gaming at Virgin in 1997. Concurrently, JFS (Jewish Free School) in the made-up songs about, amongst He recalls being handed via a fateful phone call from icon with the likes of Massive Jeremy Marsh had been booted London borough of Camden. other things, the pricelessness of classic LPs over the years from Hugh Goldsmith, the former Sky Attack and Tricky, before putting off to Harvard Business School And he certainly didn’t have the NHS. His father’s elongated the likes of Michael Jackson, Magazine publisher who had heads together with Goldsmith at by BMG, which drafted in Richard an easy ‘in’ to the entertainment periods of absence, however, and been freshly recruited into RCA Sky Magazine. Joseph obviously Griffiths as its Chairman. industry: his father, previously a inevitably heaped responsibility – as well as a number of out- by Jeremy Marsh. made an impression, because It was around this time that drummer on British TV staple on his mum. there efforts from pioneers Joseph graduated from the when Goldsmith landed at RCA Joseph first received a call from Ready Steady Go, was an artist “Dad wasn’t around much Weather Report (“that was fairly London School of Economics in 1992 as head of marketing, he , who’d recently manager who enjoyed stints of because he was working really, mentally challenging for a nine in 1991 and began working at wasted no time in poaching him. been promoted to MD of Polydor success – and endured drawn-out really hard trying to make a living year-old!”). a London advertising agency “All of a sudden I was working at PolyGram/Universal. periods of professional struggle. from the music business,” says He adds: “I won’t pretend which paid him precisely £6,200 in a business where I loved “I didn’t know much about For Joseph, that meant regular Joseph. “His view of parenting my dad was there for every a year. Seven weeks into that everything about it,” says Joseph Polydor other than Grease, The two- and three-week was giving us an album every homework, but he was a magical role, Joseph won an award for of his arrival at RCA, where Who and The Bee Gees, and I was periods where his mother, one of month or so when [he’d come figure who introduced so much a Channel 4 campaign tied to he climbed to Head of Artist happy at RCA,” says Joseph. “But five sisters, would take sole care of home from touring]. And he’d incredible music into our lives, Deafness Awareness Week, after Development and worked with then I met Lucian and he was… him and his brother. say, I want you to study the sleeve and we were golden with he put subtitles on all of his acts including Take That, Kylie how can I put this? Incredibly “We were third-generation notes – next time we see each each other. company’s TV ads. Minogue and . “It persuasive.” immigrants, absolute working other, I want you to tell me who “When he passed away earlier From there, he took on video was the least political working By August 1998, Joseph was class, with very strong Labour played what instrument on this year it threw my world upside games giant Sega as a client, environment I’d ever experienced, working at Polydor as General [political] roots, and very vocal each track.” down. I went back to that time who ended up hiring him in their and I was pretty empowered by Manager, specifically tasked with views on social equality and It’s certainly not a giant leap where he would give me and marketing division as one of 16 Hugh and Jeremy.” shaking up the label’s domestic justice,” says Joseph. from here to take you back to my brother Off The Wall and say, early UK employees. He adds: “I will forever be repertoire. Before long, Polydor “My mum taught us a very that Mini, on that drive, and Learn everything about this. It As Sega geared up to launch completely indebted to the pair was enjoying success with acts strong female-led value system, Joseph’s staunch refusal to allow was such a cool thing. If ever I was the classic Mega Drive console of them, and they both know such as , , 26 27 Elbow, , Snow spun about him being a ‘killer the Tin Man or the Scarecrow – That didn’t stop certain Patrol and – as well as shark’ behind his glasses. That’s you’re going to find it flattering. influential commercial radio handling US superstars such as probably in Lucian somewhere, “I tell people here in that stations blacklisting Universal and Dr Dre. In Grainge, but it’s not what I see. situation the same thing I told artists in the wake of Joseph’s Joseph had found a professional “I see someone who is myself: Don’t forget, that’s what campaign. mentor to toughen and sharpen incredibly clever in his social and you do for a day job – convincing “About 90% of our records were his commercial savvy. mental agility; just look at the people why they should sign to taken off the radio,” he says, the Says Joseph: “I’ve learned a people he surrounds himself with. you. You have to be really mindful disbelief still palpable. “I thought heck of a lot from Lucian over And it’s not talked about very of that: just because the it was disgusting that our artists’ the years. He’s given me the only much, but he’s also the fiercest grass seems greener or a livelihood and work was being real mentoring I’ve ever had in family guy, who puts a huge value company is going to offer a bit hurt. And yet throughout, you business dealing and negotiation. on loyalty and respect. more money, it doesn’t ’s knew fundamentally it was the “He can be a tough boss, but “Lucian’s said to a few people the best choice. I know from my right thing to do – it’s led to less he’s also a very empowering boss who’ve chosen to leave Universal, own experience that had I [taken piracy, [plus] market growth and – and I think we’ve always had ‘Alright, your call, but I tell you jobs elsewhere], I fundamentally more music discovery.” good, complementary chemistry.” what – they haven’t believe I’d have regretted it.” Another challenge for Joseph Joseph went on to become like I have.’ And he’s been proven Joseph gives particular credit and UMG is now bubbling away Co-President of Polydor with right time and time again.” to his ‘deep cabinet’ – Universal amid the independently-minded Colin Barlow, enjoying huge On that topic… ten years is a Music UK EVP Selina Webb, UK urban music community. success with Take That’s record- long time for anyone to stay with Senior HR Director Morna Cook, Namely, artists demanding deals breaking 2006 comeback, before a company. Twenty with the same Business Affairs Director Adam that either see them hold on to being named CEO & Chairman of corporation in the UK music Barker and COO David Sharpe – their copyrights, or see ownership Universal Music UK in 2008. business is a truly rare feat. Since for keeping his modern working revert in just a handful of years. life interesting and challenging. “We employ about 650 people “I have a couple of rules at here, and I know that every day work,” says Joseph. “Don’t be they are thinking, worrying, “I’VE LEARNED A HECK OF A LOT FROM LUCIAN boring – take risks. And act in second-guessing, perfecting, OVER THE YEARS. HE CAN BE A TOUGH BOSS, the company’s interest, not your investing, challenging and BUT HE’S ALSO AN EMPOWERING BOSS.” own self-interest; that’s a big empowering artists – and to me, rule of mine. that has to come with a value,” “You come across a lot of says Joseph. people in life whose blind, naked “If it doesn’t, we’re under- In doing so, he took over the he received that out-of-the- ambition will blow anything apart selling ourselves, and we’re reins from Grainge – who was call from Grainge two decades in its wake. But I believe you’ll under-selling decades of instinct, on his way to running Universal ago at RCA, has Joseph ever never earn real loyalty that way.” experience and navigation. Our Music Group in Santa Monica had the chance – or ever been Joseph certainly needed to labels shouldn’t feel they have (Grainge was named UMG’s tempted – to vacate Universal? evoke robust loyalty from his to apologize or self-justify the global CEO in 2010). “I’ve been really flattered that a closest staff and allies when he value they bring. We creatively “One of the issues I definitely couple of opportunities have waged a one-man campaign for empower our artists globally: I had to solve was how to bring come in the past, and the the UK industry to adopt ‘on-air- buy into that and I’m proud of it.” my own culture to the UK older I get the gladder I become on-sale’ a few years back. There’s evidently no Chairmanship and try and fill that I didn’t explore them,” The exec is still vexed about the insurmountable impasse: those shoes,” says Joseph. he says. “One of them would resistance he faced in the British Universal UK labels have inked “Even though Lucian and I are have meant leaving the music market, going so far as calling mutually agreeable deals with Stefflon Don very different people, we both industry, which would have been his opponents – those in favor independently-wired acts such don’t tolerate complacency; we devastating in hindsight. of making tracks unavailable to as Stefflon Don and – while accusations can quickly become chess move, the burden gets share the mindset that it could all “Most people in this industry purchase during early radio play recently launched negative and draining. I still quite intimidating. fall apart tomorrow and everyone are, at our , right-brain to drive up demand – “anti-music a dedicated urban music division hold on to the romantic notion “Taking all of that on by yourself out there wants to kill us. creative types who occasionally and anti-technology”. under respected A&R specialist that artists should be as free as with a team or two or three “I learn from Lucian every day need a hug and a bit of validation. “I felt very alone and isolated Alex Boateng. possible to focus on creativity and people, in a world with over seven and I genuinely respect him, and And that’s okay – welcome to the on that point,” he says, while Adds Joseph: “I totally their best quality of work. billion people, with China set to I don’t think I’d have been here human race. nodding to Adam Tudhope and encourage deal flexibility and “It’s not easy being an artist emerge as one of the biggest doing this for ten years without “But it means when someone the MMF as atypical allies. change in the market. So I’m not [today] – not least because of markets in the world... I’m not his support.” phones you up out of the blue, “I don’t get everything right, but stuck somewhere in the past. the whole pressure of 24/7 fan sure I’d always fancy the odds.” Adds Joseph: “I remember and offers this yellow brick road I knew the people opposing [on- Challenge us; we’re totally willing judgment and social media. If Universal Music Group, of when Lucian went to America, to paradise – when you don’t air-on-sale] were acting purely in to have open conversations. But you add to that a requirement to course, isn’t averse to making the there was this line know if you’re going to bump into their self-interest.” those ‘why do we need you?’-type be in control of every single occasional bold itself. 28 29 to Co-President of UK.) “There’s still much work to be done there, but some of that is historical and will inevitably change,” reasons Joseph. “The world of A&R has often

led directly to heads of labels Paul Hampartsoumian Photo: [being appointed], and A&R used to rely on the classic thing of driving up and down the country, which can be a lonely business. But I think that’s all about to change dramatically – because the process of A&R is changing dramatically.” He adds: “This has nothing to do with political correctness – it’s about hiring the best people and gaining a market advantage. I’ve definitely found that female artists regularly make better creative connections, more often, with female executives than with male executives.” Joseph is full of praise for With and Stevie Wonder Universal Music UK’s Senior With at the in 2016 Director of HR, Morna Cook, It’s been over five years since EMI was also, of course, a I notice this more in one [major who was awarded an MBE for He jokes: “If you signed The extraordinary way – one that’s UMG’s £1.2bn takeover of EMI’s handy and significant boost music] company than the other, services to the music industry Beatles today, would it be Paul impossible to articulate – which recorded music business, led by to Universal’s UK market share there have been some recent and apprentices last year – having McCartney feat with is why I’m always a massive Lucian Grainge, was approved figures. Is Joseph satisfied with market share acquisitions that installed the first paid internships Ringo and George? proponent that there’s no good by regulators. (Although UMG how those figures have played I don’t think are financially or at a creative company in the UK. “I’m into artist features when or bad taste in music. ultimately had to cleave off out in the wake of creatively sound. EMI was both. Universal Music UK was a they blend cultures and the “Recently we’ve seen music and sell it to Warner). the merger? “It takes a bit of strength to founding partner of the East music is better as a result, but affected by terror, and then used “A lot of people thought that was “Our market share performance walk away from a deal, and we’ve London Arts And Music (ELAM) in some cases it seems to be as some form of antidote to that, a risky gamble by Lucian is in good shape, but it’s walked away from deals where school in Bromley-by-Bow. happening just because it’s a which is extraordinary. at the time, but he’d completely genuinely not something I obsess others haven’t. “We’re streets ahead on a lot trend, and trends are there to be “There’s something about calculated it,” says Joseph. “Now about,” he says. “I know some “You have to ask yourself in of this stuff,” says Joseph. “We’re followed. Does every single we tapping into the wiring of you can see it for the genius move competitors are literally fixated on those situations: how much real not just doing it because it’s the put out have to be Live Aid now?” musicians, the way they that it was: the deal of the century.” market share, and you hear near- value is there in a photo and a right thing to do – we’re doing Such fads, however, ultimately communicate, which can have He adds: “One thing I do hysterical stories about it – bunny- story in a trade paper?” it because it leads to fresher don’t matter to the bigger an incredible effect on people, remember about it, and sadly boiling obsession! Joseph’s view of the world thinking and better performance.” picture, says Joseph: after ten some of whom have suffered loss can’t forget, is the number of “I know we’re No.1 and I know today often centers on diversity, Other lines of fresh thinking at years in the UK top job, he beyond words. All of us working people who wanted Lucian to there’s always someone who and how to ensure a healthier Universal UK right now include remains hugely excited to work in this industry should never fail – the people who lobbied wants to steal your crown. To mix of gender and ethnicity is a reframing of ‘visual’ A&R under in music because of its ineffable forget that. against us, and said it was over- maintain that position you’ve got instilled across Universal Music ex-Warner exec Stefan Demetriou, power to occasionally “sort “Maybe it’s a sign of me aging, priced. I can’t forget and I won’t to have lots of thought and no UK’s multiple divisions. who has been tasked with something out in all of our heads”. maybe it’s a sign of the times, forget the negative tactics of complacency. He is clearly proud that helping artists to tell their stories That power has taken on new but the healing power of music those who tried to derail it for “But Lucian and I discuss this Universal, at the time of writing, via long- and short-form video. meaning, and a new poignancy, doesn’t feel like a wishy-washy their own self-interest. a lot: when you’re in that [No.1] is the only UK major record When it comes to more of tragic events which thing from 1972 at the moment: it “I’m incredibly proud we got position, there’s a big role for company to employ a female traditional (‘audio’) A&R, Joseph have blighted the past few an absolute reality.” it and I’m incredibly proud to responsible deal-making – that’s executive at the top of a flagship expresses excitement at the new years – a fact of which Joseph is have been a part of it. You have being responsible both to the frontline label. (Two, in fact, music Universal has up its sleeve deeply appreciative. This interview originally appeared to remember that EMI was really artists we’re in partnership with with Rebecca Allen presiding – but admits one recent trend “Music should never be taken on MBW in December 2017. shaky at the time – it wasn’t being and our shareholders. From a over and Jo in the field may, in his view, be for granted,” he says. “We know It has been edited for length invested in.” competition point of view, and Charrington recently promoted spiraling a little out of control. [songs] affect people in the most and topicality. 30 31 know they are our partners and that we are there for them.” Carolyn Williams: ‘Creativity and In terms of artists, is Williams’ No.1 “poster child for authenticity is what’s going to continue hard work”. She says of Keys: “She is one of the most monumental artists I’ve driving our business.’ ever had the opportunity to work with, she makes me want to work Marketing mastermind Carolyn meditation room. All these things harder and all of her albums that Williams has played a key role you hear about now that seem so I’ve worked on have been labors in some of the most successful normal, back then it was unheard of love for me.” and critically acclaimed R&B of. It was a great place to work.” and albums to have While there, Williams gained been released over the last two experience in multiple genres, What are the biggest lessons decades. working on hip-hop, R&B, gospel you’ve learned in your career? Her work spans Alicia Keys’ and dance music campaigns. I did a panel many years ago that multi-million selling back She moved into major label Russell Simmons was on, and one catalogue to D’Angelo’s seminal land in 2001 as Director of of the things he said really stuck transition record Black Messiah, Marketing at the RCA-distributed with me, which is that success and more recent campaigns for J Records, where she learned the is 15% a great idea and 85% Childish Gambino, A$AP Rocky, “importance of excellence” from execution. H.E.R., Miguel and SZA. founder Clive Davis while honing That has been a mantra I’ve Williams was recently promoted her project management skills, kept with me for my entire career at RCA Records to EVP of and crafting lifestyle marketing and I would not be where I’m at Marketing. recognized campaigns for , now if it wasn’t for that advice. her “passion, marketing acumen Monica and Mario. and attentive leadership” – Two years later, Williams was How has the role of marketing attributes which has been honed promoted to Vice President, changed during your time in the over a 20-year career that started Urban Marketing at RCA Music business? SZA at Pete Rock’s Soul Brother Group, overseeing an artist roster It’s a lot more collaborative. In the Records in the late ‘90s. which included American Idol past, I felt there was a pressure on projects, but I do find that the A challenge in today’s Before music beckoned, winner Fantasia, marketing people to be the be-all creative process feels more streaming-led world is cutting Williams briefly worked as an “YOU HAVE TO LET Grammy-winning rapper and end-all of the campaign; you comfortable now. through the noise when there is entertainment journalist after ARTISTS LEAD. WHAT , and Grammy- had to come up with an idea and so much music out there. What graduating from an advertising nominated R&B singer, Jazmine strategy, and be a big force in the When you’re sitting down with makes a successful marketing degree at the Fashion Institute of THEY’VE CREATED IS Sullivan. creative field. Now you don’t feel artists to map out marketing campaign in 2018? Technology in New York. REALLY CLOSE TO By 2008, she was Senior Vice as much pressure to come up campaigns, what is your This may sound clichéd but it During that time she got President and has since served with ideas on your own. approach to working with them? leads with the music. Content to know legendary hip-hop THEM – THEIR BABY.” as the project management lead It’s now about having great Number one is to let them is great, and having an amazing producer, Pete Rock, who gave for , , and the relationships with our artist lead. What they’ve created is visual like Childish Gambino her an admin job – and she soundtrack for HBO’s Insecure. partners and making sure they something that’s really close to did with This is America was a quickly became fascinated by Whilst working for former RCA understand what you’re bringing them and it’s their baby, so you groundbreaking cultural moment how the music business worked Penalty Records where she led COO Tom Corson and current to the table, and that you’re not have to approach it with a lot that cut through everything. behind the scenes. grassroots campaigns for then- CEO Pete Edge, Williams has trying to change them or make of care and honesty, and you have But when I look at a project “Working for a producer you get budding hip-hop stars, Capone- honed her strategic skills and them more ‘commercial’, you’re to listen to what it is that they like H.E.R., it’s testament to the to see things from start to finish N-Noreaga. achieving the right balance trying to enhance what it is that want to do. fact that you don’t necessarily — from the early stage when an Her next stop was at Tommy between commerce and makes them special and bring it Again, a big part of our job is need a lot of bells and whistles to artist or manager is reaching out Boy Records, which she credits for creativity. to a mass market. not to change [artists] — they cut through – what you need is to get a track done, to working being one of the most progressive Of her current boss, Edge, she There were so many things that are where they are because of really great authentic music and with a label for scheduling and labels in the business at the time says: “It’s really refreshing to work were manufactured in the past, what they bring to the table and authentic artists. getting records on to radio. thanks to the leadership of CEO with someone that doesn’t beat whereas now I feel there is a lot what they do. So I take in their She’s an amazing singer, “Seeing that process made me Tom Silverman. you over your head about the more authenticity in music, artists vision, help amplify it and give and musician, and feel like I wanted to help bring “Tom really stressed the bottom line, but beats you over and campaigns. them ideas about things they people just gravitated to the music releases to fruition.” importance of employees being the head with how special we I’m not trying to belittle any may not have initially thought music – you didn’t even know From there, Williams happy and healthy — we had a make this and how important it success of people who have come of that could be another part of what she looked like. That transitioned into marketing at personal gym, a masseuse and a is to make sure that our artists before and delivered amazing their campaign. speaks to why it’s important for 32 33 we’re bringing to the consumer and how the partnerships between the label and the artist are coming into play.

So labels becoming multi-media companies? Pretty much, yes.

How has streaming had an impact on what you do? Streaming has been great because it gives us another area to utilize when it comes to assessment. There was a time where we would put out a record, service it to radio, and have to wait for research before we could get a real read on a record. Now you can look at a record that you put out and see its development fairly quickly on a streaming music platform. That has helped us a great deal in assessing the viability of a particular project or artist. It’s also given us a long tail because music lives out there for a really long time – unlike a record that Childish Gambino may not be working at radio that H.E.R they may take out of a playlist. music to lead first and for it to and put some visuals out I look at [us] as brand managers, There are things that can happen it doesn’t take a lot of money to something that you get up in the be authentic, so the consumer there, but it takes a machine and I feel that there will be more that can help spike streaming be creative. I feel that more artists morning excited about and that is allowed to make the decision and a really strong team to help partnerships between labels and and listenership based on what’s will be challenged to do things you want to do every day. about what they like. build upon that foundation and artists on the content side. That is happening in the marketplace. that are creative and authentic; The other advice goes back to Clive Davis once said, ‘If you give a bigger message – to come an area we are still tapping into. that is what’s really going to 15% of success being in a good don’t have an emotional reaction up with creative ideas and make We know streaming will Do you see any other innovations continue to drive our business. idea and 85% in execution. to it, it’s probably not good’ and sure that music is reaching every continue to evolve and develop, on the horizon that are going to I can’t stress that enough that’s true. The music is what platform and opening up doors and it’s the job of the streaming change music and marketing? What would be your advice to because I do find we are in a drives it for me and helps to cut and other opportunities. providers to make sure that they Everyone talks a lot about who wants society now where a lot of people through a lot of the clutter. We’re offering a lot of tentacles, are building their subscriber technology, whether it’s AR or to pursue a career in the music want the easy way out – they like a great licensing and sync lists, and we have to build our VR, and how these things are business today? want to do what they feel is the How has the relationship department, amazing publicity, community by having our content changing the game, but for me Do what I did and learn core part of what we do. between artists and labels sales, streaming and visual on the platforms. it’s a lot simpler than that. everything you can about But this is not just about changed during your career? departments. The woman who At the end of the day, you still all different aspects of the hanging out with artists and There are a lot of artists who runs our sync and licensing Can you explain what you mean have to have something that is business. I wouldn’t know how having great brainstorming believe they don’t need labels department really busts her ass by content ‘partnerships’? really interesting and makes the much I love marketing had I sessions, going to parties and and that definitely affects [a to find unique opportunities and I don’t want to go into too consumer have an emotional not done everything else from networking – a lot of it is hard record company like RCA] in that secure amazing looks for artists. many specifics because there reaction – and that always goes administrative duties to radio work and strategy, busting your we have to look at our business I don’t think that’s easy and I are certain things we are doing back to music and visual. promotions, retail and publicity. ass to make sure that something differently, and make sure that don’t think that’s something artist now, but I will say that when you You can have a visual that is so Try it all and then decide what happens the way you want it what we’re offering and bringing or managers can always facilitate look at the actual content itself, impactful and so controversial it is that you love and make sure to happen. All of that speaks to to the table is unique. on their own. how it’s evolving, that content that is not high tech at all; there you have a passion for it. It’s not executing a really good idea. It’s not easy to put a record development is where you’ll see are a lot of low quality videos work if you love what you’re doing out. Yes, anybody can upload a How do you see the artist a lot more partnerships between out there that have moved the — there is a difference between This interview originally appeared file to a file sharing or streaming and relationship the label and the artist. needle. For me, innovation is having a job and a career. Try on MBW in October 2018. It has service and maybe shoot some evolving in future? It’s about the type of offering more about being creative, and to have a career, try to have been edited for length. 34 35 “WHATEVER DID believes Kamikaze can go from here, what its huge commercial OR DIDN’T HAPPEN performance means for Eminem’s WITH REVIVAL GOT career – and why it heralds good news for the album format in the EMINEM INTO A age of streaming... PLACE WHERE HE COULD BE RAW What were your expectations for AND HONEST.” Kamikaze before it landed? We didn’t know [Kamikaze] would perform quite as well as it did out of the box, because we haven’t done anything like that before with Marshall – a surprise release of a full project. We didn’t really have a gauge for it. We were coming off of Revival, which is a project we marketed months prior to its release, which didn’t perform as well as we had hoped, so there was obviously a bit of the unknown involved in this venture.

Did you think, before Kamikaze arrived, that a ‘rawer’ album than Eminem’s previous LP would surpass it commercially? I felt it was necessary for [Eminem] to get these messages I think in a lot of ways, it’s a getting out of the way. Then, off his chest, and for him to blessing. Whatever did or didn’t obviously, word of mouth is really release the record with the happen with Revival got him to a strong, and people were definitely energy, urgency, and angst that place where he could make this eager to hear what he was talking he expressed within it. record, and be raw and honest about, because there was a big Did I know that meant it was and emotional, and have people buzz about some of the topics he going to be a big commercial really embrace it. was addressing. Paul Rosenberg: ‘Eminem’s audience performer? I didn’t. It just goes to show this [streaming] audience, The impossible question: now The debate over those who wants honesty, purity - they don’t want with everything being so it’s happened, why did Kamikaze he raps about continues to transparent and democratic, they perform so much better than rumble! What do you think that want honesty, they want purity; Revival, which as you note had Kamikaze’s done for Eminem’s to be told something’s a hit.’ they don’t want to be marketed so much more ‘traditional’ status amongst, particularly, a to, they don’t want to be told media/marketing amplification? younger audience, as well “Tried not 2 overthink this 1... previous album, Revival, which one in the States so far this year, that something’s a hit. They want There were a lot of factors, the as his own personal energy as enjoy.” arrived just over eight months tucked in behind three giants to find music themselves, and first and foremost being that an artist? It started with a tweet, and it prior, in December 2017. of modern popular rap – , consume it how they feel is best. Marshall’s never done [a surprise I think he was in the mindset of ended up a sensation. The twist: Kamikaze smashed Travis Scott and Post Malone. In a lot of ways, for a guy like release] before. like, Look, I don’t know if people Eminem’s surprise latest album, through 434,000 album Kamikaze has also proven itself Eminem, that’s a big relief, right? If you hear that somebody like forgot who I really am and what Kamikaze, dropped in August equivalent sales in the US in a truly global hit, rising to No.1 in Eminem has dropped a surprise I’m about, but I feel like I need 2018 with no preamble, no its first week – some 63% higher no less than 103 markets around That makes sense. project, instantly you’re intrigued to remind them. I feel like that’s marketing tease, no noise. than the lushly-produced, the world. Because now you can sit back and you are interested in finding what he wanted to accomplish, Just a tweet – and 13 tracks full superstar feature-laden Revival Here, MBW catches up with and say, ‘Why am I trying to do out what it’s about. and he did it. He put out a project of brisk, antagonistic, rage-fueled chalked up (267,000) in its Marshall Mathers’ manager (and this? Why am I chasing that? The timing was really good, too, where he can just say, ‘Listen, bars that got the world talking. opening seven days. recently-crowned Def Jam chief) I’m going to make the record I in terms of the runway being very don’t forget what I am capable A portion of the album openly Kamikaze’s barnstorming debut Paul Rosenberg. want to make. That’s what my clear for big releases, and some of, and the things that got me to railed against critics of Eminem’s made it the fourth biggest week- He spills the beans on where he audience wants.’ of the larger hip-hop projects where I am.’ 36 37 Does it please you that people You appear on a skit on are talking about Kamikaze as Kamikaze – warning Eminem a whole album in an industry “I THOUGHT I WAS on a voicemail of the “slippery which is becoming increasingly GOING TO GET A slope” of firing back against track-led? critics of Revival. That’s Definitely. That’s really important COUPLE OF YEARS TO scripted, right? for a guy like Em who’s so focused REALLY SETTLE IN AT The skits are always based on real on music as a body of work. conversations, so while they’re not To have this streaming DEF JAM. THEN necessarily real voicemails, they audience, this digital audience MARSHALL COMES are things that have previously which is obviously younger, be really been said between us – engaged in it like that, it just ALONG: ‘WE’RE particularly mine. goes to prove the point that if PUTTING OUT Marshall’s [skit] is a little bit you deliver the right quality of more extreme and comedic, but product with high standards, ANOTHER ALBUM!’” there’s always pieces of truth in people are going to be there for there. I’ve always played the it. They will indulge in things that ‘voice of reason’ in these skits, are worth indulging in. Universal Music Group system, and early on it was just to let is a rival label. Is that a bit everybody know we were not When did you first hear the schizophrenic? completely insane! record? A little bit, because obviously I’m saying some of the things I heard songs as they were being we’re in competition with that you might be thinking when created, and initially he thought Interscope at Def Jam for some you’re listening to these records. he was maybe just going to things, like signing new artists, release one or two tracks in but I never look at them as Outside of Eminem, what’s your response to what he was feeling. [outright] rivals. I’ve been working No.1 goal at Def Jam, and why As he kept going, I think he so closely with [Interscope] since did you take the job? started to feel more confident the beginning of my career, that I We really have one goal, and about what he was doing, and could never see them in any light that’s to make this the record then two songs turned into four other than a positive one. label that everybody in the genre songs, and then the next thing Marshall remains signed wants to be associated with, and you know, he said, ‘Why don’t I over there, I love working with to be signed to again. make this a real project?’ the people at the label, and There was a time in hip-hop everything has continued pretty where there was Def Jam, and Were you panicking a bit about smoothly, all things considered. then there was everything else, keeping the record under wraps? While it’s weird at times, because and I want to get back to that. , I was terrified. But the I do have to put my other hat If we achieve that, it means good news for Eminem was on, I think that we’re all able to we’re doing everything properly; that in my other job wearing my separate it pretty well. we’re breaking records, we’re other hat, with Def Jam, I’d been One of the things that I told signing the right artists, we’re through a bunch of these drills [in everybody at Universal before I influencing the culture, we’re summer 2018] with the took the position with Def Jam cool. All those things are working Kanye releases. was, ‘I need to get this Eminem if we reach that goal. That’s where I’ve learned, being in this album [Revival] out, before I can I want to be. [Universal] system, what you can go focus on [the label].’ Why did I decide to do it? I and can’t do, how long you can I thought I was going to get mean, it’s the greatest hip-hop hold things, and the levers you a couple of years to really settle label of all time. can pull to get things done in a in and get comfortable in this To be given an opportunity short amount of time. new role, and of course, Marshall to sit in command of that and comes along and says, ‘Hey, what contribute to that legacy is a once I know you get asked this every are you doing? We’re putting out in a that there’s no single lunch you go to now, another album!’ way I could have passed up. but how is it working on an It’s been a huge challenge, and Interscope project as Eminem’s a tremendous amount of work, This interview originally manager, and then also working but it’s kept me so focused. I appeared on MBW in September as the boss of Def Jam – which, think I’m actually more efficient 2018. It has been edited for although a fellow part of the as a result of it. topicality and length. 38 39 Jon Platt: ‘I’m all for crossing over – as long as the mainstream crosses over to you.’

One of the most respected leaders in the business, Jon Platt has a gift for recognizing superstar early in their careers, among them Jay-Z, Beyoncé, , , Drake and Rihanna. Since he became Chairman & CEO at Warner/Chappell, its songwriters have hit new heights and, as a result, the company rose to No.1 on Billboard’s US chart in Q3 2017, and was named Publisher of the Year by BMI. Given Jon’s history in hip- hop, and the fact his company publishes many of the biggest names on the UK urban scene – including , Skepta, , Dave and more – we were curious to discover what he had to say to this new British generation. Clockwise from top left: Warner/Chappell Known for putting his songwriters Music clients Dave, Stormzy and Skepta first, Jon rarely does interviews, so it was a pleasant surprise when “I AM DIRECT PROOF OF THE OPPORTUNITIES with a burning car, and the next that transcend borders, race, shouldn’t be alone. The power he responded with the letter THAT THIS CULTURE CAN PROVIDE.” I’m in the middle of a desert gender, and even language. It of your movement can create below. Packed with hard-won watching some of the same can bring people together as part opportunities for people of color, wisdom, it makes his excitement artists performing in the blistering of a movement that grows and women, and countless others. clear, while underlining that the heat at Coachella. This is rapidly grows. From what I’ve witnessed, Make sure the companies you stakes are higher than ever… so mysterious that it shook the hip-hop culture. What I’ve learned becoming more than just a it’s reflected in everyone’s live do business with truly understand BRITs audience to its core. I loved through the years is that the ‘London thing’. shows; there seems to be a your culture. As you evolve, seek it. Fast-forward 15 months, and greatest songwriters are the ones The streaming revolution has genuine camaraderie. However, partners who respect who you Almost two years ago, I was at the there it was again – watching with distinctive voices who stay opened a direct path from the that growth comes with the truly are, and what you have built. O2 for the BRIT Awards. One of Skepta and Stormzy perform true to their roots. artist to the ears of the world likelihood that opportunists, Challenge your business partners the artists I was looking forward sold-out shows in front of their As you have beautifully proven and has shown what listeners or ‘tourists’, as I call them, will to employ people whom you to seeing was Kanye West, whom own audiences was further in the UK, real artists don’t need truly want to hear – your music. attempt to take what you’ve relate to, share your core values, I signed to his first publishing confirmation that your movement to compromise to reach the Because of this, the gatekeepers, created, put a different face on it, and live your culture. deal years earlier, well before he is real. mainstream. Some will read this as we knew them, have been and turn it into something else With success comes became the global superstar that I’ve had so many special and say that I’m telling you not sidelined, and the entry gates that they call ‘new’. Or worse, the responsibility – the responsibility he is today. Kanye’s performance moments in the UK through to cross over to the mainstream. have been torn down. They’ve gatekeepers will tell you that you to do right by your community was hotly anticipated that the years, but what you are They would be wrong. I’m all for been removed by your belief in need to articulate your culture a and to blaze a trail that others evening and, like I’ve seen him do building really brings home crossing over – as long as the yourselves and the culture you certain way to succeed. You must can follow. so many times before, he blessed the power of community. It mainstream crosses over to you. represent. not allow that to happen. Protect The power is yours. The the audience with something shows what creative individuals It’s an amazing time for the The question is, what comes what you’ve built. originality and uniqueness of your shocking and real. can accomplish when they’re scene in the UK. The next? Will your movement I’ve seen first-hand the positive artistry and your songwriting will When Kanye hit the stage, he constantly bringing out the best culture that you’ve built on your continue to grow organically and impact hip-hop can have on its always win the day. was joined by an army of what in each other. own is not only topping the UK authentically? Or will it become community. I am direct proof Continue to use your voice. The seemed like every grime artist in As an American, I have great charts, it’s being heard around diluted as it increasingly reaches of the opportunities that this world is listening. the UK, all dressed in all black. respect for what you’ve created the world. One minute I’m at the mainstream? culture can provide, Together, they delivered a set so in your musical world. I’ve lived Alexandra Palace watching a Grime has the power to speak the only black global CEO of This piece originally appeared powerful, so raw, and through multiple incarnations of majority of the scene on stage to a massive audience in ways a major music company. But I on MBW in December 2017. 40 41 XXXXXXXX “LABELS WERE LIKE THE HUNGER GAMES: 20 ARTISTS GO IN, ONLY ONE STAR COMES OUT.”

THE MOST EFFECTIVE MUSIC INDUSTRY JOBS BOARD IN THE WORLD Willard Ahdritz: ‘Talking about ‘signed’ and ‘unsigned’ artists is yesterday’s language.’

It’s a truism as old – and as to a major label, only one will In this case, however, Ahdritz bankable – as the pop business go on to become a business- is simply nailing a well-worn itself: getting signed to a record benefitting star. fact, with a pinch of customary company does not mean you’ve On that topic, British super- dramatic flair: “Record labels ‘made it’. In fact, the odds of doing producer Mark Ralph recently were always like The Hunger so after you ink that contract are recalled, during an interview with Games: 20 artists go in but only greatly stacked against you. MBW, that his lawyer casually one star comes out.” In the annals of labels around warned him he had “a 95% Although certain elements of the globe, you’ll find plenty of chance of failure” when he first the music business may wince statistics that prove, when it signed to a label as an artist. at the idea of Ahdritz once comes to frontline signings, there And now, there’s this: our again wagging his finger in their WWW.MUSICBUSINESSJOBS.COM are many, many more commercial profile of Kobalt and its CEO, direction, his fiery observation is disappointments than there are Willard Ahdritz – a man not actually at the heart of a pretty commercial Despacitos. typically known for enamouring pragmatic idea – one which could The hoary old statistic we’ve all himself to the blockbuster music genuinely turn the recorded been told at some point: out of rights-holders with his public music business on its head. every 20 or so new artists signed comments. You won’t meet many people 42 43 who deny that the traditional High Street or Santa Monica. (As Lonny Olinick, CEO of AWAL, is Some AWAL artists, though, way of discovering, signing and this magazine goes to press, Rex not worried. Olinick, very much have already jumped ship. Take, breaking new artists is wildly OC’s Loving Is Easy, for example, the economically astute, level for example, Ray BLK, who was inefficient. One superstar, as the is blaring out of British TVs as the headed-foil to Ahdritz’s shock named as the BBC’s Sound Of old adage goes, has to pay for 19 soundtrack to Nestle’s Milky Bar and awe, believes the future will winner in January last year, before flops. Ergo: The Hunger Games. Wowsomes ad.) be determined by results. And he signing a big-money deal with For Ahdritz, this calculation Ahdritz says: “The old-world says the odds are in AWAL’s favour. Island Records UK. isn’t simply unsatisfactory – it’s economics of labels were terrible “Often, when people talk about Olinick realises that AWAL, like personally depressing. There for most developing artists. It cost a big advance cheque [from any company, isn’t ever going to are countless great artists down $1 to press a CD and the labels got a major label], I like to have a enjoy a 100% retention rate with the years, he reasons, who a $10 gross profit on every sale. detailed conversation with them its artists, and that the major label have been screened out of the That gave them huge operational about it,” says Olinick. “Let’s say world will occasionally become a music business because a single leverage, and meant that any new you’re talking about a million lucrative option for certain acts. gatekeeper decided they weren’t hit act gave them a massively dollars. People say, it’s irrational However, he argues, this will worth the risk. Countless artists profitable ‘heroin kick’. and it’s a huge number, so we be a statistical rarity – and, to who could have built healthy “So, even if you won the ‘Hunger have to take it. prove the point, he says there audiences and healthy small Games’ and became a star, your “But when you look at the are already a handful of artists businesses who never got their label could still get distracted and trajectory of the assets you already who have left AWAL to sign with chance. have their head turned by the hot have, and you look at the assets a major who haven’t ended up This is the philosophy behind new thing. That is, and has always that are likely to come into your better off. Kobalt’s reborn AWAL – essentially been, the wrong approach.” label deal, that ‘irrational, huge’ “There are four artists that come a distribution and services He adds: “Today, it is a very cheque actually starts to look to mind, who were on a trajectory company for artists, which offers different situation: artists don’t quite rational, and pretty small. and it flattened out [after they every function one might expect have to hand over the keys to from a record label partner, their career in the same way. They while boasting premier-league are learning that there is a viable streaming analytics. alternative to the Hunger Games; “IF AWAL CAN MATCH [THE MAJORS’] When it comes to A&R and AWAL’s mission is no more CHEQUES, IT BECOMES AN EASIER artist discovery, however, AWAL complicated than making every does things slightly differently. It’s one of our artists as successful as CONVERSATION.” a model which could eventually they can be. That’s why we believe Lonny Olinick, AWAL force major labels to adapt – in we’re going to build a very big the same way that Kobalt’s tech- company.” led publishing revolution coerced Do you see the potential the major publishers into getting funding from AWAL to further show signs of acceleration, Kobalt weakness in AWAL’s gameplan “When we’re confident in the left],” comments Olinick. “The with the times. boost their growth. believes it is creating the perfect yet? It believes that, by investing break-down economics like that, managers of these artists have Here’s how it works: the first And, amongst the highly- antidote to the high-risk A&R sensibly in an artist’s career at we as AWAL can write very big clout, and they matter in the rung of AWAL offers a fairly talented or fast-risers, a selection on which much of the music each stage, it can slowly ratchet cheques, too. It’s about reading industry, so these stories are standard online distribution get bumped up to AWAL business has been built. up their status until they are the data – and when we have becoming powerful for us. deal, for which artists sacrifice Recordings, the full-service, label- Something about AWAL is global superstars who maintain vision and passion, going beyond “Managers are realising that about 15% of their royalties, esque tier of AWAL, offering artists clearly working: the service counts their own rights. the data, too.” it’s not like the other side has a while keeping ownership of their everything from streaming playlist the likes of US artist Lauv on its The problem it will inevitably AWAL certainly has money at magic button. If AWAL can match copyrights. The untypical part promotion to radio plugging, books, who now boasts over 1bn- face: major labels don’t always its disposal: in March, the firm the advance cheque, and you of this equation? Only artists funding, targeted plus streams and whose recent invest sensibly. When they see announced that parent, Kobalt, can keep your rights, plus we can selected by AWAL’s A&R team are marketing and sync pitching. hit, , crashed onto an act starting to fly – buoyed was making a $150m investment show successful stories from the invited to use the service. Crucially, it’s here that advance 50-plus major-market terrestrial by record, streaming-powered in the business, which would be past, it becomes a much easier MBW understands that cheques based on the streaming radio stations. In addition, AWAL company revenues – they throw used to pay artist advances, as conversation to have.” thousands of artists are welcomed trajectory of an act’s music start to works with on-the-rise successes eye-watering cheques down in well as recruiting a further 100 He adds: “Every major onto the platform each year, be paid out. like (225m+ streams), order to tempt artists to what people to form a 200-strong manager’s been through the all of which have shown some In turn, these ‘AWAL-plus’ artists R3HAB (400m+ streams), VÉRITÉ Ahdritz calls “the other side”. global team. scenario where they do a big level of commercial potential. pay a commission which can rise (200m+ streams) and the white- Couldn’t AWAL, which If artists wish to leave AWAL to money label deal, then the first AWAL backs them with global to somewhere around 30%, but hot (215m+ guarantees its artists the ability join major labels, Olinick reasons, marketing campaign doesn’t distribution and music data once again, they entirely keep streams). to walk away with 30 days of let them go. But, he argues, it work and, all of a sudden, no-one analytics – and then closely hold of their copyrights. All of these artists are giving notice, end up becoming will happen less and less – and within the label owns the project monitors their performance. By casting its net wide, then confidently building their career a ‘feeder’ hub for the A&R deserters may look back in envy at anymore. It’s the step-child of As artists gain further traction, taking calculated bets on paying via AWAL, while (so far) resisting departments of the world’s richest their peers who remained on the everyone. The possibility of having hundreds each year receive advances to artists whose careers big cheques from Kensington labels? platform. a viable alternative to that 44 45 model means for the ‘middle class’ of artists – especially those who would have never made it in the old business. Earlier this year, Daniel Ek boldly proclaimed that, at the end of 2017, Spotify counted 22,000 artists within what the platform’s founder termed the “top tier” of earners on the platform, and that he wanted this figure to rise and rise. Ahdritz, Ek’s fellow Swede, shares in this optimism. The Kobalt boss wants to see 100,000 artists earning a good living from their recorded music in the coming years. He argues: “This is fundamental economics: the more people come to a market, the more money will be spent. It’s induced demand: if there’s more, you’re going to consume more. In my opinion, this matured [recorded] music market will be three or four times bigger in the future, largely because of these dynamics.” The globe’s brightest financial Bruno Major shows the love to AWAL at the Great Escape in Brighton, May 2018 minds are on his side. Goldman Sachs forecasts that, by 2030, structure is really powerful.” Strut, which didn’t make the UK might think: I can take 15% of this there will be 847m paying VÉRITÉ AWAL’s alternative became Top 20 (although it went to No.2 cheque today, and I don’t know streaming music subscribers all-the-more viable in recent in and ). Today, if I’m going to be here tomorrow. around the world, a 381% rise on AWAL’s current marketing rapidly. I would never encourage weeks with the acquisition of New KLS is no more, but AWAL still That’s why it’s so important that the 176m the IFPI counted in 2017. campaign ‘I Am My Own Label’, any artist to hand over the control York-based in2une Music, the services a handful of established an artist has a team which is Meanwhile, fronted by the artists releasing of their career to someone else, promotions acts globally – , The focused on building their career, PricewaterhouseCoopers has just through the platform, says it all. because your vision will simply not company which has serviced Wombats and amongst and building a great business, projected that the UK streaming Take, for example, Bruno Major; happen without you remaining in the likes of Diplo, Major Lazer, them. in the long-term. It’s then when music market will generate £1.4bn the British artist, who recently the driving seat. and Lauv. The company believes more AWAL makes the most sense.” by 2022, nearly double what it’s supported Sam Smith at the O2 “Artists are becoming Industry cynics will, naturally, big acts are on the way as AWAL Olinick says: “Obviously every likely to be worth this year. Arena, thought his career was over educated; they are no longer point to Kobalt’s loss-making continues to prove itself in the advance we pay is a risk, and Importantly, this £1.4bn figure when he was dropped by Capitol/ fooling themselves that they commercial performance in the market. when you take risks there’s an will be significantly higher, (USA) a few years have succeeded when they sign recorded music world over the “I believe that the more artists opportunity to lose money. But we suggests PWC, than the amount back. a record contract. So much of past few years. become educated, the more they see consistently that the money of cash generated by He taught himself production, that thought pattern has been In 2012, Kobalt announced will understand the game on the we invest, based on the streaming ticket sales in the same year. recorded his own album at influenced by music industry Kobalt Label Services – specifically other side,” says Ahdritz. “I expect trajectory of those artists, means “In our system, on average, we’re home, and – working closely with propaganda. to work with high-profile, so- going forward that people are they end up in recouped positions already hearing that artists are manager Sam Bailey – started “Even the idea of talking about called heritage acts in a clear going to stay in our system nine or quickly. making two times more money releasing his records via AWAL. ‘unsigned’ and ‘signed’ artists is challenge to the model relied 10 times out of 10. When you have “There’s a fundamental on their recorded royalties than To date, Major’s debut album, yesterday’s language, because it upon successfully by companies the full support of AWAL, there difference between playing the their touring,” says Ahdritz. “This A Song For Every Moon, has suggests that artists are missing like BMG. is no major that can do anything lottery versus making smart and fundamentally changes the attracted more than 90m streams out on something by not signing Despite some big successes bigger to break you.” rational decisions based on what economics of being an artist. on Spotify alone. a traditional record deal. with the likes of Nick Cave, He adds: “We let people judge the artist is capable of.” “We have hundreds of artists “[AWAL] is a controlled risk for “It’s up to us, and AWAL, to there were also questionable what the best decision is with Regardless of whether AWAL already in our system who are artists,” comments Ahdritz. “But shatter that illusion.” investments. Some say a hefty the facts on the table. There will holds on to relationships with earning a living – and you’ve not my whole career at Kobalt has cheque was spent on marketing always be temptations, especially superstars, Ahdritz is greatly heard the names of most of them. been about taking controlled This interview originally for a 2014 Lenny Kravitz album, from those around you, who enthused about what the firm’s For me, that’s a huge victory.” risks; that’s how we’ve grown so appeared on MBW in July 2018. 46 47 “WHETHER YOU’RE A perfect: Saturn was a member (via Quality Control/), remember there was a phase of the Promotion department at XXXTentacion, Halsey, Judah & of like, ‘I can’t even listen to any SERVICES COMPANY in NYC, banking her The Lion and . music. I’ve lost my way.’ OR A MAJOR LABEL, IF career on Oasis, when the elder The latter arrived at Caroline via Steve said to me, “I have an Gallagher quit the band’s crucial a particularly valued partner of opportunity for you and it’s going YOU DO A GOOD JOB US live run, mid-tour, in fury at his the company’s – LA-based indie to be awesome.” FOR ARTISTS, THEY younger sibling. label 10K, run by Elliot Grainge I remember the first phone call The second item easily tops (whose last name you might just when he said, “I want you to run TELL THEIR FRIENDS.” this, however: it’s a T-shirt recognize). .” I literally replied, emblazoned with two words, The success of 10K and others “What does that even mean, all caps, screaming out across has helped give Caroline an Steve?” Saturn’s Hollywood office: ‘FUCK unusually strong foothold in a He had a huge amount of belief HARVEST’. commercially explosive new in me, which came at just the This was the slogan breed of US hip-hop – a position right time. Jacqueline publicly displayed across his own which is becoming the envy of Then when Pierre [Giramonti, tee, on stage, following an ugly Saturn’s rivals. Saturn’s then co-MD at Harvest] fall-out with his then-label back Other 10K signings include and I came to the Tower, it was an Saturn in 2014 – Harvest Records. 6ix9ine, who is currently flying intense time of rebuilding. Some Saturn had quit Epic’s promo high on US hit rankings with his of that got pretty dark, when ‘Artists are squad in 2013 to become GM collaboration, FEFE. you’re literally building a new of Harvest Records, having Caroline offers these artists – and label, with no fans. been poached by her ex-Sony partner labels such as ATO, Future There were two artist stories way more colleague – now Capitol Music Classic, Fool’s Gold, Arts & Crafts that worked in those early days: Group topper – Steve Barnett. and Fader – services ranging from and Banks. And savvy about Within a year, after a promising marketing to commercial/brand in both of those cases, we really start, she found herself getting partnerships, streaming and radio believed, we really dug in, and we properly Morrissey’d. promotion, film & TV licensing and really made a difference. the music “That’s the very last one,” Saturn artist merch. One of the things I learned in says with a smile, pointing at the Earlier this year, the company that time at Harvest was seeing business offending garment. “Do you know also inked a deal with Emmanuel how deals and the market were how many people still want that De Buretel’s Because Music changing. We had been signing T-shirt? I’m like nope – this one (Christine & The Queens), artists that had seen some now – they’re belongs to me.” pinching the legendary French success before, but in subsequent Why keep it around? label from Warner’s ADA. deal negotiations where the price “Seriously? Because it reminds MBW recently sat down with was going up beyond the comfort in control me that it’s not always going to Saturn in her office within the zone, and I was thinking, “Oh be good news in this job.” Capitol Tower to get the story man. This isn’t how the new world of their You could forgive Saturn for behind Caroline’s recent success works.” requiring this negging daily – and learn how a receptionist reminder – because, since she from Nashville climbed through When you got your hands on destiny.’ took over at Caroline in 2015, and the ‘boys’ club’ of major label Caroline in 2015, what needed especially since she became sole promotion, and ended up calling fixing? There are a pair of items on GM of the company last year, the the shots... With the changes that were Jacqueline Saturn’s window good news has rarely stopped happening in the market at that sill, neatly nestled next to one coming. time, it was very clear that there another, which link directly to According to Nielsen Music You arrived at Harvest, part of was a big opportunity to find what must rank as the two of the data, Caroline’s overall US , in 2013. partners that shared the same worst days in her professional distribution market share nearly Why did you quit Epic after vibe as us. There were things existence. doubled in the first half of 2018 nearly 20 years? here that made you wonder why The first is a signed copy of compared to the equivalent Steve [Barnett] called me. I’d [previous deals] were done, why the latest record from Noel period of 2017. (It’s currently been at Epic a long time – L.A. anyone ever thought they would Gallagher’s High Flying Birds, Who higher than 3.0% – little wonder Reid was [President] there – and be successful, so you have to Built The Moon? Saturn’s just been promoted to I was at a point in my life where, comb through all that, maybe Saturn’s relationship with the President of the company.) to be honest, it stopped feeling end some deals, and that’s not Oasis man is golden these days, Major successes working with good for me. always fun. but back in the mid-nineties, Caroline in recent times have I am very passionate, and I But, equally, we had this goal things weren’t quite so picture included the likes of NF, Migos could feel that dying in me. I to work with the best partners, 48 49 label structure that I began to have more “oh” moments. A lot of the guys would hang out together. So although it was exciting being part of it all, you started noticing: hang on, there’s a complete divide of guys and girls happening here. You have to remember, at this time [mid-to-late-nineties] there really were not a lot of women in the business. There was Michele Anthony, way at the top and crushing it, but that’s not the most relatable thing when you’re answering the phones.

What was the reason for that? Why was that allowed to happen without question? Originally, promotion was a man’s world. I’m not judging The Capitol team, 2018 that, especially because – as we know – when [radio plays] weren’t and the most disruptive artists. To hard for it. It wasn’t difficult monitored, there were a lot of be honest, we looked at both the to make that decision – [hip- different deals going down in a artists and the staff and asked: is “IN THE BEGINNING, hop] was permeating the walls closed network, and girls weren’t this modern enough? What are WE WERE CALLING everywhere you went! really welcomed into that club. we missing? And then, as I say, you do a With Elliot Grainge and Capitol Music Group boss Steve Barnett That was a process that had to THESE GUYS, ASKING good job for one artist, they How did you gain acceptance? happen to help get us where we FOR MEETINGS. NOW tell their friends, they tell their I delivered results. We were been doing the same job for so teenager were you? are today. manager. dealing with really tough artists to long?’ I was always a pretty outgoing I’d worked in a commercial THEY’RE CALLING US In the beginning of Caroline, get airplay for – Rage Against the When I left Epic to join Steve person. I grew up in the south, in [label] world for years where – WE’RE REALLY it was like we were calling all of Machine, Oasis, Korn – the sort of I was still an SVP. Yet every guy Nashville, but my dad was born in people used to be down on these guys, asking for a meeting bands who might ‘forget’ to show who did my job in that building New York and my mom was from distribution, like: ‘They’re not the GRATEFUL THAT’S and explaining ourselves. Now up to major opportunities unless had an EVP job title. And then, Michigan. A players. They’re the B players.’ TURNED AROUND.” they’re calling us – and we’re you gained their trust and they after I left, the person that took I wasn’t a regular [teenager], at And, looking around at the really grateful that’s turned listened to you. my place was given an EVP title. all. I actually switched schools as changing market, I started around. It’s also something we It’s the same today in this I actually think about that a lot, a sophomore – my own decision. thinking, ‘Why can’t we be A never take for granted. business: look out for those even today, because it’s a shitty players? Why?’ labels. Most of our most recent people who are close to the feeling and I still want to learn Why? big deals have come to us that I want to talk about your career, artists – they’re the ones who get from it. That’s part of the reason [Sighs, grins] I was a bit of a wild You’re having a lot of success way. Plus, we’re really aggressive; and why you’ve made some things done. we’ve made some of the changes one, and I recognized it. I knew I as a services company, within a we’re always out there, looking for of the decisions you have. You we have, here. [Interestingly, over had to reel it in a bit. major label group. How do you the right opportunities. joined Epic in 1993 in promotion You said you lost your way at 50% of Caroline’s executives in The first school, I’d been there stop the more traditional labels Artists and labels know that – was that the intimidating lion’s Epic. What was that all about? the US today are female, and the since first grade, and I had this in the capitol tower from getting we don’t have to go to a board den one would have expected it To be frank, Did you not get same with its parent, CMG.] creeping feeling of, ‘I’m not going annoyed that you’re eating into meeting to get them an answer to be? promoted when you should have I want everyone on this team to to live up to my potential.’ their market share? here. We can make a difference When I started, it wasn’t like been? feel two-way loyalty, that I have I switched to an all-girls school Simple: they recognize that they and we can make it fast. that at Epic. Harvey Leeds was There are two things on that. At their back and will help them and met a whole group of people have to do a good job for their my boss, and later, of course, I that time, to be blunt, the music grow and fulfill their ambition. It who are my best friends now. artists, and that we can be an You seem to have particularly worked for Steve Barnett – these at Epic wasn’t good. How can you sucks when you’re loyal to people My parents weren’t crazy about incredible help to them. Whether doubled down on hip-hop, before were, and are, really be passionate about shit music? and you don’t see that loyalty ever that, but they supported me. It you’re a services company or a it became de rigueur – Empire people. You have to feel it in this business, come back to you. was one of the best decisions I major label, if you do a good job aside – for large-scale US services It wasn’t until time went otherwise, what’s the point? ever made – sometimes that girl for [artists], they tell their friends. companies to be doing that. on, especially when I started And, yeah, you combine that I’m going to ask you one of my energy is the one thing you need It’s the same with partner We did, and we worked really understanding the [wider] Sony with the feeling of, ‘Why have I favorite questions: What sort of to change course. 50 51 It was important for the future, unbelievable relationships with How would you characterize because going their artists and they also have an the support Steve Barnett business as a female at the time “STEVE [BARNETT] IS unbelievable relationship with and Capitol Music Group COO that I did was, well, it was not DEFINITELY A TOUGH Caroline. Michelle Jubelirer have given easy. It was a boys’ club for real. It’s a lot of work because they’re you since you started? TASKMASTER. BUT I so smart – that means there are I’ve worked for Steve Barnett for What did your parents think KNOW, COMPLETELY, a lot of things we have to do as a long time. I moved across the when you said, ‘the music partners, and we have to keep up. country for him [from Epic in NY industry’s the one for me!’? THAT HE’S ROOTING What’s especially cool about to CMG/Harvest in LA]. They knew. God, they knew from FOR US TO SUCCEED, that label, and is becoming more What I can say about Steve, when I was, maybe, five. I was with other labels, is that and obviously Michelle together, always so into music – I was just AND HE’S PROUD they’ll meet an artist, and then is that their success is rooted in obsessed; growing up in Nashville, WHEN WE DO.” we’ll go and meet that artist the being able to understand the writing out lyrics, listening to . Sometimes, we meet market at every stage. radio all the time, the Sunday them together. We are 100% supported from rock shows. You get in a rhythm with each the top down here [at CMG]. We [My parents] were originally a lot. You have to have a happy other; when you have that, and wouldn’t be able to do what we saying, “Do you wanna start in [the personality, no matter how you’re you really like each other, then do without them. music industry in] Nashville?” I feeling, you have to remember you can close anything. Let me be clear: Steve’s a tough didn’t. I wanted to go to New York. people, you have to learn who’s taskmaster. It’s not always super- They were supportive, but they really important and make That’s interesting. The idea of easy having him as a boss, and it were also saying, “Okay. But you relationships over the phone. a services company actually shouldn’t be. have to get a real job.” I loved that job. It helped that helping a label close the signing He has taught me that you I moved to New York, and Frank was a really good listener of a hot act. always have to be ambitious With Caroline client I really had to pound the and a really good storyteller. He It happens all the time. It’s a in your goals. And I know, pavement for my break. I was was a true mentor of mine. good example of how we’ve completely, that he’s rooting for an example of an incredible good. That’s the services model – working as a paralegal ‘cause Frank had done evolved way beyond just being us to succeed and that he’s so manager: we work with [Christian it’s not about us, it’s about you! I was still flirting with the idea [DiLeo played gangster Tuddy the ‘distributor’. I’m not even sure proud when we do. I’m really rapper] NF. His manager is Chris What would I say to myself? of going to law school. And this Cicero in the movie] and I’d we can use that word to describe lucky to have him in my corner. Woltman, who is just incredible “Speak up.” That it’s okay to use woman, a songwriter who used literally been the receptionist ourselves any more. and is a friend of mine. your voice. We all know guys are to come to Nashville, reached taking calls from and The world is very different now, You work direct with a lot NF is an unbelievably talented better at asking for more money, out and was like: ‘Hey, there’s a Ray Liotta and Bobby [DeNiro]. especially with social media. of artists who have been artist who makes decisions that the office with the window, all of record label starting. They want to From that, I got my job as an Artists are way more savvy about independently successfu. How matter to him. That doesn’t mean that stuff. Use your voice; even if it interview for receptionists.’ assistant at Epic, and when I the music business, as are young much of that success depends they’re always going to be the means saying, “I didn’t like what It was literally like a scene in a arrived in 1993, the world was people starting [labels] – they can on the manager – and what easiest decisions for us to handle you just said to me.” movie. I was at this paralegal job going crazy for . be in control of their own destiny. makes a good manager? – but Chris is very honest and People in [corporations], and I was like, “Ow, my tooth! Oh And, you know, I think people There are definitely artists out I love this question because, often, very collaborative. We all want to especially women, are scared to my God, I have to get a root canal.” at Epic liked that I hadn’t skipped there that have started building a you have to make tough decisions succeed together, and we all trust do that because they think it’s And I left the office, and ran a step – people in the music brand on their own, or seeing the [about working with artists] that about each other. going to result in a strike against to the interview. They were business appreciate the fact excitement when they put their ‘cause life’s pretty fucking short. When you have that their record. interviewing all these people and you’ve worked really hard to find music on SoundCloud, who think: There has to be a good manager relationship, you can still keep Well, all I can say is, when I I’m imploring them [breathless], your way in. And I don’t think that ‘No. I’m my own boss, and that’s there, otherwise this [services pushing boulders up the look back, I wish I did it more – “You have to hire me today. You changes at any level. how I want it to stay.’ model] doesn’t work. It literally mountain every day. Because especially on those rare occasions have to.” But I don’t buy that ‘artists don’t changes whether we’re going to even when a line is drawn [by that people behaved like 10K is a label on the up and need major labels’ [mentality] do a deal or not for me. the artist/manager] and you’re assholes. Who hired you? up. What’s driving the success – so we’ve structured Caroline , being a good told ‘no’, it’s not the end of the Savage Records, a small for that company and Elliot to have them draw on the manager doesn’t mean you have conversation – it means you can What ambitions, as of now, do independent label. One of Grainge? enormous clout we have to offer, to be in the business for a million figure out what else you can do you have left in this business? the partners had enormous 10k’s one of the most exciting while they’re still able to stay years. Half of the people I deal instead. We’re just getting started. The profile in the business, and labels in the world right now. independent. The fact is, there’s with are 25 and under – and If you could go back to your Caroline we wanted to create, that was Frank DiLeo [an artist And it’s special for us, because a huge range of choice in the they’re incredible managers! first day at Epic now and whisper with this amazing team in place, manager who counted Michael I feel like we’ve been building market at all levels and that’s a The biggest thing for us is something in your ear, what exists now – and it’s just getting Jackson as a client during his as a company as they’ve been great thing. something as seemingly simple would it be? comfortable in its own skin. career. The owner of the label was building as a company. It’s a very cool thing when you as having their ability to get My first day at Epic. God, I a very successful businessman, They started with one person, can be a true partner with those the information to their artist, remember that day. Here’s a good This interview originally David Mimran. now they have a dedicated, people to take things to the next and present it correctly so one for you: at that time, my job appeared on MBW in Being a receptionist taught me young fiery team. They have level. they understand it. I’ll give you was to make other people look September 2018. 52 53 Linda Perry: ‘Scared artists are making dumb albums, singing stupid songs.’

Linda Perry believes that if you only album, Bigger, Better, Faster, up in this business, because it’s ask the universe for something, it More (worldwide sales of over six due; it’s time for a wake up call.” will deliver. If she’s right, and she million) – and most memorably This high speed and fully armed gets what she’s currently asking with the global hit single, What’s locomotive on a collision course for, a significant proportion of you Up. (1993) with 2019 (and, quite possibly, should probably watch out. Then, having quit the band (“I with you), started slowly, though, Because what she wants, knew very early on I needed to way back in the ‘70s, with a young what she believes is essential jump off that path “), she became Perry charmed by Disney and (with something approaching a spotlight-swerving songwriter Julie Andrews... righteous fury) is nothing sort and producer behind career of a revolution – creative and defining songs and albums commercial. for artists including P!nk and What music do you first She says: “We need people to , who recorded remember hearing and loving? step up and start being fucking one of the great pop ballads of I really loved musicals: The Sound . We need to show the the last two decades, Beautiful of Music, Funny Girl, all those way, because right now we need [2002]. (Perry has also written for/ Disney films, Jungle Book, things our Carole Kings, we need our with artists including , Alicia like that. Patti Smiths, we need our Velvet Keys, and Courtney My sister was into Undergrounds. Love.) More recently, whilst still and , my brothers “We need our revolution right writing and producing, Perry has loved and The Turtles, the fuck now. It’s time to wake become more involved with the and I listened to that growing up and stop following the game plan based around what you’re hearing on the radio and seeing on YouTube, or wherever you’re “LISTEN, THERE’S A FUCKING TRAIN COMING getting your shit from, and start AND IT’S GOING TO HAVE LINDA PERRY asking for more. Start being your true self. Until then, we don’t WRITTEN ALL THE FUCK OVER IT.” stand a fucking chance.” Perry gives two examples of having previously asked and business side of music, creating up. But if I was going to choose received from the universe: first, publisher/label/management anything myself at that time, I to become a rock star... and then company, , and would always gravitate towards to become a different kind of recently announced a global musicals. rock star. publishing deal with . You can argue she has some This is all part of a process When did your rebellious period evidence for her cosmic claim – which Perry sees more as kick in? i.e. the results. You can also argue assembling the troops than When I was maybe 14/15 I started it’s more about talent, tenacity forging alliances. Because battle discovering… life. I’m a very ‘street’ and Perry herself than some sort is about to commence. person. I didn’t make it through of ethereal . Either way, “Listen, there’s a fucking train High School. I grew up pretty they both happened. coming and it’s gonna have Linda rough and was heavily into the First time round, the Perry written all the fuck over whole punk rock scene. But, at ‘becoming a rock star bit’, after it,” she says. “I’m going to show the same time as I had a safety an unconventional adolescence up in 2019 in many, many forms. pin in my face, I listened to The informed by punk rock and acid, You’re going to have to read . So my friends would Perry was the lead singer and credits because you’re going to make fun of me a little bit. main writer for . see me all over the place; me and I loved a lot of [punk] music, The group burned bright and my partner [], we’re but, emotionally and lyrically, briefly in the early ‘90s with their going to fucking shake some shit it was one-dimensional. When

54 55 you’re slam-dancing in the mosh- universe, I believe in the energy pit, there’s only one emotion that’s rightfully ours, I believe going through your mind: you’re “I BELIEVE WHAT what we ask for, the universe will angry, you’re full of adrenalin. WE ASK FOR, THE give us. So I made a conscious I come from San Diego and we decision to ask to be a rock star had a very heavy-duty punk scene UNIVERSE WILL GIVE and the universe gave it to me. down there. US. SO I MADE A We took over an area of a park, When you say ‘we’, you mean 4 we would sleep down there, there CONSCIOUS DECISION Non Blondes, of course. Can you were all the drugs we wanted. I TO ASK TO BE A ROCK explain how that came together? dropped so much acid. Yeah, so I started writing a bunch STAR, AND THE of songs, showing up at clubs and What was going on in your life UNIVERSE GAVE asking if I could play between at that point, and did it involve sets. People just laughed at me. music? IT TO ME.” But, finally, I’d left my number at As much as I loved music, I didn’t this club called The Night Break think it would be what I would in Upper Haight Street, and this do, because it was like brushing gonna be a rock star. And at 25, I guy called me and said he had a my teeth, or getting dressed, it became a rock star. situation: a band had canceled was something that was part of and he needed someone up on daily life. I didn’t think a musician What was it, at 21, in San stage in the next 45 minutes. I’m was something you grew up to Francisco that made you think there! I’m your girl! become, it was just something that way? I got there, I got up on stage you were. I wrote this song called Down and I blew everybody away, they We were on welfare. I’d left On Your Face – and one day I loved me. So he started calling home when I was 15, I’d go should re-visit it, because it’s such me regularly and started passing back, I’d leave again. I didn’t like a powerful song. I wrote it for a my name around. So I’m playing relying on my mom. I was very brother who I didn’t really know, more and more clubs – but with independent. who was abusive to me. just an acoustic, I was everybody’s With We Are Hear business partner, Kerry Brown I lived in the park, I hung He kind of showed up later, he dream. I started getting kind of a out with my punk friends, we was from Brazil, we didn’t really big name in the city. were the songs that were going Was that an enjoyable time? you getting credits for songs squatted, I slept in cars. I really know him, but he was my mom’s Then this band came to me and to be on that first record? Shit happens, man. I’ll tell you that I’m writing. That’s not going lived life. And I had fun! son from Brazil – and he wasn’t said, We love the way you sing, I think the guitar player [Shaunna something, 4 Non Blondes to happen, get that out of your At 18, I fell off this building a nice brother at all. So I wrote a will you come and check us out Hall] was kind of out, was great, it was a wonderful thoughts, because when all this when I was on acid. It was pretty song that basically said, Fuck you, and join our band? I said, Well, I’m because she had been writing all experience to have, but I was fails, when all this goes . I broke my collarbone, you screwed me up. doing pretty good on my own, the songs, but the bass player and on a different journey and I feel the shithole, these songs are my bottom lip was practically Also, my voice was almost like y’know. But I checked them out, the drummer [Christa Hillhouse like I should never have joined, going to be my legacy, and detached from my face. And, French pop, very whispery, very and I thought it was fun, so I said, and Wanda Day] didn’t really because I was going to make it there’s no fucking way I’m sharing right then and there, I changed , but when I tell you what, I’ll sing with you care. with or without 4 Non Blondes. that shit with you. everything. I moved to San Francisco and guys for fun, but I’m not bringing We lost Wanda, because I was already destined; I was They weren’t happy with that, I stopped doing drugs, I cut my wrote this song, all of a sudden in any of my material, that’s for she was a total heroin addict, already starting to . and they came at me again when mohawk off, it was a whole life my big voice showed up. my solo career. So that’s kind of and replaced her with Dawn I don’t live in regret, I never we were making the second change. I said, Okay, I’m going That was the pivotal point: what I did, I sang their songs. And Richardson. And then the have, but I knew very early on that record, and so then I left. I also to become a responsible person writing that song and finding my they were okay, like country punk, guitarist started pulling shit in I needed to jump off that path. didn’t want to take the safe route, now. voice. It was like, Holy shit, where it was kind of interesting. I got the studio and we got rid of I’m a girl who finds solutions and write another album that But it wasn’t until I moved to the fuck did this come from?! And drunk and had fun. her, because she was being very to problems. I don’t stay in was going to ride the coattails of San Francisco, when I was 21, that then the stories and the songs Then one day I decided to difficult. problems. our first album. I realized – Oh, I’m gonna be a started showing up. merge the two halves, I brought We were just trying to make I didn’t like the way the band Interscope kept me, and rock star. my songs in, including What’s a record and she wasn’t going treated me, because I was that was a bummer, because I had been in punk bands So, you’ve decided you’re going Up, we had rehearsals, we started along with it. So we finished the talented and writing songs, but I thought if I left [the group] when I was a teenager, but no- to be a rock star; how did you set playing shows and pretty quickly record [Bigger, Better, Faster, they were making me feel bad they’d let me go – but that didn’t one thought I could sing, they about making that happen? we got signed [by Interscope] in More!] without her and brought about that. happen. So I got stuck with this thought my voice was too weird, It was 1987 when I moved to San 1991, and in 1992 we blew up. a session guitarist, Roger Rocha, They wanted credit on songs label that wanted me to write so I kept getting kicked out of Francisco, then in 1991 we got who played some of the lead stuff that I was writing. I said, Hey guys, What’s Up parts 2, 3 and 4. bands. signed and 1992 I had a hit on the Was there any tension when you that I couldn’t do, and that was listen, I’m gonna give you guys I said, Fuck you, I’m not going to But at 21, in San Francisco, it radio. So it was pretty fast. brought your songs into the mix the band that ended up touring some money from the royalties, do that and I’m never going to do just hit me: Oh yeah, right, I’m Listen man, I believe in the and it became clear that these that record. but there is no fucking way are that. Let’s be clear, you’re never 56 57 Photo: Luke Gilford Luke Photo:

Perry has written with/for the likes of Christina Aguilera, plus (right) P!nk and Alicia Keys going to get a song like that from when you said you were going to I say, well I just wrote a fucking out, I met Christina Aguilera. that you have, that depression. me . And then they be a different kind of rock star? dance hit, and now we need to I’d actually met her a couple of Because, listen, the world knows dropped me. And I was like, Fuck “HONESTLY, I’M STILL Well, again, I put it out there in go and find someone who can times, but then I was out one that Christina Aguilera can yeah! And honestly, I’m still that THAT WAY. I STILL the universe and it came to me. sing it, because it sure fucking night, at a club – which I never sing; the problem is, no-one way, I still piss people off, I still I started listening to the radio ain’t gonna be me. do – and she was sitting there all believes what you’re singing. hold true to my beliefs. PISS PEOPLE OFF. I – and I never listen to the radio – Two weeks later I get this crazy by herself. Have a great night. When I was free [of a label], I STILL HOLD TRUE TO listening to what was going on, phone call from some girl named So I walked up to her, past the When I got back, my friend decided I didn’t want to be that MY BELIEFS.” and we’re talking about 2000 P!nk. In fact she left a voicemail: bodyguard, and she had just asked me, What did you say to type of rock star, I wanted to be now. I asked a friend of mine, Linda Perry, I’m looking for you, heard the stuff I’d been doing Christina? I said, Nothing much, behind the scenes, where I can what’s the sound at the moment, I’m gonna come find you, I want with P!nk, because Dallas Austin why? He said, Because she’s still do what the fuck I want. If I want and he starts talking about you to write a song with me. [co-producer of M!ssundaztood watching you and her mouth has to write a country song, I’ll write like when I’m going to be 72- MPC drum machines, Trident I look her up, I see this girl with and co-writer of four tracks] had dropped on the floor. a country song. If I want to write 74, somewhere around there, keyboards, blah blah blah. So, pink hair singing R&B music so I been playing her the record and A week later, I got a phone call a song, a soul song, a polka I’m going to get a lifetime having previously always been call her back and say, I think you showing off. But his big mistake from her people and she wanted song, whatever fucking song I achievement award and I’m analogue, I go out and buy all got the wrong Linda Perry. was, he played her my stuff too. to meet with me. wanna write, I’ll write it and I’ll gonna have a lot of fucking this digital equipment and I start Anyway, we meet and she and And she says, Wow, who’s that? find an outlet. And what that respect. And I’m going to have having fun with it, exploring what I instantly click. She reminded He’s like, Oh, Linda Perry did that. Had you already written meant was becoming a producer respect because I did what I said it can do. I’m creating beats, I’m me of me. I sent her Get did that one? Linda Perry. Beautiful by then? and a songwriter. I was going to do and I kept my writing bass lines, I’m putting Party Started, she loved it and That one? Linda Perry. All the I had just written it. And what integrity. That is what I want. some real guitar in there, some we started writing together. We songs she liked were the ones I happened was, she came to Was there any part of you that I want a group of people to sit fake horns in there. wrote like 15 songs in eight days did. my house and she wanted found it hard to let go of being in a room and applaud me for And then I sit there and say, and that became the bulk of her When I ran into her, she said me to break the ice by singing the person out front, in the staying true to my beliefs. Okay, I’m going to think of every album [M!ssundaztood, 2001, she’d heard some of the P!nk stuff something, so I played her spotlight? cliché out there and I’m going to 13m+ sales to date]. and she really loved it. I said, Cool, Beautiful. And she instantly Never. I’ll be honest with you, I about doing what you sing it. And thanks, and I asked her if she asked me to demo it and write don’t like it. say you’re going to do, which is what I wrote. After that success with P!nk, was was making a record. She said out the lyrics. You know what I like? I like you did when you said you were It just came out of nowhere. I the phone ringing pretty much she was, and then all I said to her I was shocked and thrown off, respect. I like you talking to me going to be a rock star. So how call up my manager, I play it to constantly? before I walked off was, If I were because I didn’t think someone about how awesome I am. I did you go about doing it again her and she says, What’s that? Well, before the record was even you, I would use that darkness like her could sing that song. I 58 59 believed that song because that’s next year it will be really clear What happened was that that can’t stay true to themselves. how I truly felt, like an ugly person what we’re doing. Billboard stopped letting record And the labels, after scratching trying to find my beauty. But she We Are Hear is a publisher, a companies buy their acts into their balls, trying to figure out is a beautiful person, and then it record label and a management the charts – they were paying what they can do – which is what made sense to me: she doesn’t company – and a bunch of other $100k to put Warrant at number they’re doing right now – they’ll feel beautiful inside. things. We’ve just done a JV with one. And then everyone said, No go and buy up those ‘cool indies’ It’s interesting, my biggest peermusic, and we love peer more, you can’t buy SoundScan who want to sell out, and the successes were songs that I wrote because peer is all about the anymore. whole cycle starts again. [alone] without the artist. There songs, all about the songwriters, And who showed up at No.1? Now, I can tell you now, hands were many years when I didn’t all about family and all about Garth Brooks. And everyone was down, that will never happen on write many big songs, because putting out good quality. going, Who the fuck is Garth my watch. I was writing with people, and I They’re a big independent and Brooks? This country artist who Our label will always stay true. found that really hard. we feel that with them we can was selling millions of records I feel confident to say this and I had a long dry spell of not start a rumble. and had millions of fans, and that it will never come back to having hits, because I was trying I’ve said to them, If you have he was No.1 because he was really bite me in the ass, because I to explore what it was to write songwriters that you believe in, selling records. And then Nirvana know who I am and I know who a song with people and still but they’re not quite getting showed up and blew everything my partner is. That will never keep the emotion. Because my there, call me. I’ll go in, I’ll sit with out of the water, and it became happen. We’re going to be fine. emotions are true, but most them and I’ll help get them there. all about indie labels and anti- We’re not gonna need anyone people’s are not. They’re trying Because sometimes it’s hard, it’s establishment. else’s money to carry on. to write songs to be emotional; hard to understand what you’re I write songs because I am supposed to do. emotional. The airwaves are crowded with “ALL THOSE FAMOUS GIRLS ARE BUYING crap, the digital space is full of How do you feel now about the shit as well. It’s hard when you THEIR 20 OR 30 MILLION FOLLOWERS [ON pros and cons of writing alone have people saying, This is what SOCIAL MEDIA]. THAT’S STUFF’S ALL BOUGHT – vs collaboration – and about that you should be doing, because ‘dry spell’? this is what’s popular on the IT’S NOT EVEN TRUE!” I have a whole slew of fucking radio and this is what’s getting hits, it’s just the artist and the big streaming numbers. You get label didn’t think so. confused. This is what’s about to happen. All the stuff I’m talking about, I actually one day want to And when something is hard Because all those [famous] girls all the bullshit that’s saying release all these songs, because for you, it’s because you’re not are buying their 20 or 30 million nothing, it’s happening in a they are hits, and I knew they doing the right thing, you’re not fucking followers [on social time when we need people to were hits, they were just risky doing what you’re truly meant media], that stuff’s all bought, it’s step up and start being fucking hits, not the obvious ones. And John Legend to do. You’ve got a bunch of kids not even true! And the Spotify punk rock. one day I’ll get permission from who really want to be writing like streams, that is not true; that We need to show the way, everyone, I’ll release them and I’ll And one day the artists are going It’s about songwriters stepping , but instead they’re is people putting campaigns because right now we need call them the Shoulda Beens. to wake up and realize they got up and raising the goddam writing like . together and buying their way our Carole Kings, we need our The music business is fucking Trumped. They didn’t do what the bar; it’s about artists taking the onto those playlists. Patti Smiths, we need our Velvet scared, it runs on fear, and you label told them to do, so the label power and saying, Fuck you to So what’s the answer? There are great things that Undergrounds. We need our can’t run anything on fear, that’s takes it out on them, and holds the fucking labels. It’s about all of The job right now is to get Spotify are doing and there are revolution right the fuck now. why we are where we are right them in captivity until they do us joining together and putting everybody on the same team. great things that Apple Music It’s time to wake up and stop now: you’ve got a bunch of what they tell them to do. this business back to where it’s We’ve got to get the publishing are doing, and there are real following the game plan based scared artists who are making Listen, there’s a fucking train supposed to be, because it’s companies on the same team, numbers are out there to get, around what you’re hearing on dumb albums and singing stupid coming and it’s gonna have Linda about songwriting, it’s about we’ve got to get the industry on but they’re not the ones that the radio and seeing on YouTube, songs. Are they getting streams? Perry written all the fuck over it. empowering and it’s about the same team, and the artists people are exploiting. or wherever you’re getting your Sure, but that doesn’t mean jack And it’s going to come in many listening to everybody. on the same team. We’ve got shit from, and start doing more shit. I don’t give a fuck about forms. I’m going to show up in to create an environment that Where do the major labels and asking for more. Start being your goddam stupid numbers, 2019 in many, many forms. Is the main vehicle for that your allows these kids to grow up as fit into this post-revolution your true self. Until then, we don’t because that is fake news. That You’re going to have to read the company, We Are Hear? their true selves. landscape? stand a fucking chance. is not real, but for some reason credits because you’re going to Yes, we’ve been together for two It’s gonna be hostile takeover. Well, as always, what will probably Be confident, step into your labels run around thinking it is. see me all over the place; me and years now, working on some Remember when Warrant and happen is that there will be a power; that’s all I’ve got to say. Labels are like a bunch of my partner [Kerry Brown], we’re really great stuff, and by 2019 Poison and Ratt were like No.1, slew of my type of companies Trumps, sitting on their made-up going to fucking shake some shit everybody will know about it. all over the place, taking over coming out, doing it all, and This interview originally bullshit, thinking this is the way it up in this business, because it’s We’ve been planting the seeds, MTV with their really bad, cheesy some will stay true to themselves, appeared on MBW in is because they say so. But it’s not. due, it’s time for a wake up call. getting everything ready, but by music? and then you’ll get the handful September 2018. 60 61 music agreements were not in challenging a ruling that complete loss if the artist is not writing. prescribed ‘100% licensing’ at BMI successful. “I told my boss and he said, ‘Let and ASCAP in the . Right now [the difference it go, we’ll do a good deal for her Here, we chat to LaPolt to get between recorded music and and she’ll get paid.’ But it’s never her straight-talking views on the songs/publishing] is almost 13/1, – it’s about the biggest subjects facing today’s so if songwriters and publishers truth and it’s about the justice.” music business... made at least a third of what LaPolt studied the contract record companies are making, between Tupac and Death Row, that would increase the equality which was handwritten and What in your view are the exponentially. It’s not even near missing many integral points, biggest challenges facing that right now. before burying herself in the songwriters and musicians The Music Modernization details of the US Copyright Act for today? Act does a lot to modify the five years. Equal treatment under the law, Copyright Act in a way that allows The upshot: LaPolt helped Afeni namely for songwriters. If you the songwriter to flourish in a Shakur settle the suits, wrestle have $10 that comes in, right off better market. back the recordings from Death the bat $3.05 goes to the service Row, and tidy up the estate. providers, 30%, then $1.20 goes Why are you backing the Music It was with encouragement out the door for the PROs, the Modernization Act in the US? from Afeni – who LaPolt describes publishers and songwriters. There were a lot of loopholes in as her biggest influence besides That leaves $5.75 for the record the Copyright Act in America her own mother – that in October companies – and that is because and one of them allows services 2001, -based LaPolt they can negotiate in a free like Spotify to stream music Law was born. market. without a compulsory license for The firm was founded on three For the first time since Napster songwriters’ mechanical rights. guiding principles: always get the contract signed, be available 24/7 and have no conflicts of interest. Afeni was LaPolt’s first “FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE NAPSTER, LABELS Dina LaPolt: ‘Put a woman in charge of client alongside a few Playboy ARE DOING VERY WELL... BUT CREATORS MUST playmates. Other early sign-ups included BE COMPENSATED ADEQUATELY.” anything… sh*t gets done.’ all-female group Wild Orchid (which included Fergie at the Dina LaPolt has spent the last of macaroni cheese warmed by myself... I became a music lawyer time), plus Ed McMahon – who ate our lunch, record companies That means there’s $1.6bn in 20 years fighting for the rights of a cigarette lighter under a hot so I could help music creators, was hosting the early iteration are now in a position where they unmatched mechanical income songwriters and musicians. And plate. After realizing she had because when I help them, it of American Idol – and Santana are earning income, and they are that is being held from interactive she’s had to fight hard. little chance of making it big on helps me more.” singer Andy Vargas. doing very well, which is great streaming. The MMA creates a She’s tussled with the the stage, an alternative calling When LaPolt graduated, not Today, 17 years on, LaPolt is one because they can invest more collective that is being paid for notoriously brutal Suge Knight beckoned. yet sober, she initially struggled of the most respected music in developing artists, marketing by all the DSPs and governed of Death Row Records, and even Aged 27, LaPolt — who had to find a job in LA’s corporate lawyers on the planet, with and promotion — those are good by songwriters and publishers. sued the behemoth that is the always considered herself the law firms. She took a gig as an clients including Steven Tyler, things. All the unmatched mechanical United States Department of ‘business person’ in the band unpaid intern for a music lawyer, , , Fifth But the business does have to income moves to the collective Justice. – went to law school, at John F “buying lunch and blowing up his Harmony, Galantis, and be fixed to where music creators where they will be able to match Yet perhaps the biggest battles Kennedy University in . kid’s basketball”, until she met an Eddie Money, amongst many are compensated adequately for that money to the songwriters. in her life have been personal “I grew up feeling like I was unsatisfied client who needed more. their contributions. So it moves the money from the ones: she’s overcome a drug and never good enough. I was help: Tupac’s mother, Afeni In 2015, she co-founded DSPs to our own community. The alcohol addiction, and recently overweight and gay and gay was Shakur. Songwriters of North America do you think the other thing it does is creates an survived a near-death experience not good in the ‘70s,” revealed “When I met Afeni she was (SONA) alongside Kay Hanley and songwriter share of the audit right so music publishers after contracting an infection in LaPolt in a recent Ted Talk. upset because Death Row Michelle Lewis, which has since streaming pie should rise? can audit the DSPs for any her spine that led to septic shock. “Music was there for me and Records were claiming they grown to become the second A lot of people are advocating for missing income. LaPolt started out as a singer drugs and alcohol became a owned all the unreleased largest songwriter advocacy 50% but I think that’s lofty. and guitarist in multiple rock diversion. [Using and drinking] recordings of Tupac when he group in North America with 540 In defense of record companies, I’ve heard a few managers bands in the ‘80s and ‘90s. As made me feel better about died,” LaPolt tells MBW. “His members. they do put up a lot of risk money. talking about how heavily such, she spent the best part of myself, I could fit in. But then estate was overweighted by Little under three years ago, They are the only companies that involved they are in the A&R her twenties on the road, with when I got clean and sober I had lots of lawsuits because he died led by LaPolt, the group sued really invest in marketing and process recently, and how evening meals often consisting to fight to feel all right about without a will and a lot of his the US Department of Justice, promotion and that money is a their deals should reflect 62 63 that to compensate the early companies and publishers investment. Do you agree? becoming fairer for artists? I’m not at all an advocate of “I’M NOT A FAN OF They are naturally starting to do managers signing up clients MANAGERS SIGNING that because record companies where they own and control their are making money, so they are IP. If a manager wants to help UP CLIENTS WHERE less focused on obtaining all of develop a client on a traditional THEY OWN AND the other rights from the artist. management/artist relationship, Five years ago when the which is 10-15% of gross income, CONTROL THEIR recorded music business was for a specific period of time IP. THAT TO ME IS A still losing money, and hadn’t with an adequate continuing recovered from Napster, the only compensation clause, I’m all for LABEL/ARTIST way record companies were able that. But when managers want RELATIONSHIP.” to exist is from ‘360’ deals. to go ahead and be in business Touring, marketing, with their artist where the artist sponsorship, endorsements, and is giving them exclusive rights to sometimes publishing, were master recordings and musical records, publishing companies something that they had to compositions, and the manager are good at publishing songs, acquire just to keep the lights on. puts up their own money to managers are good at overseeing Now they are making boatloads do that, that’s not a manager/ the artist career and making of money with interactive digital artist relationship, that’s a record sure the record companies and streaming, so they are not so company/artist relationship. publishers are doing what their focused on obtaining all those I’m not so sure that is good for contract says they are going to do. other rights anymore. the artist. My firm is in the middle of Who is in the driving seat of negotiating many different record Why? today’s music business? deals right now with a lot of the When an artist is being asked to The creators, certainly with how major labels and independents, sign [their] IP to an entity, that streaming has taken off. Here in and it’s very easy for us to get entity has to be fiscal enough to the US, streaming constitutes some of these ‘360’ provisions move the needle. Management 62% of the recorded music kicked out of the agreement. Britney Spears companies traditionally don’t business. That is huge and it’s a Especially for clients with a lot of have sizable and formidable market trigger. leverage because they are making lesson and realized that they can’t What do you make of the from. Then again, we have a marketing departments. Terrestrial radio still has the money on interactive digital just open a service, take people’s argument that doing that would trend in America started by the A manager that wants to biggest marketshare with 271 streaming. copyrights and use them without drive users back to piracy? Donald Trump campaign called control and own an artists’ IP million people listening every day, permission or attribution. Piracy will always be an issue, ‘alternative facts’. precludes the artist from signing but it doesn’t pay everybody. We What are your predictions for Spotify’s debut of offering it’s about whether or not you’re directly to third parties. The are the only civilized country in Spotify’s IPO and how will it songwriter and producer credits going to open your checkbook Do you think YouTube’s new artist team wants to make sure the world that doesn’t recognize affect the music industry? is very well received and a lot of and let the pirates come in and music subscription service, our clients can sign directly to performance income for sound I think that generally the IPO will the other DSPs are also working write all your check, or if you’re part of YouTube Music, will be a management, merchandise and recordings. North Korea, Rwanda be great especially if the MMA on that, thank God. going to keep your checkbook success? publishing companies because and Iran are the other countries passes because it will bar all The other thing we’ve got to get locked in your desk and make it Ultimately subscription services that way the artist has privity of that don’t. But interactive digital lawsuits from being filed against rid of is this free tier because it’s a hard for them. are what is going to save the contracts with those parties and streaming pays great, especially them after January 1st 2018. nightmare. Apple Music is to be YouTube has to be straightened music industry so long as can sue if something goes awry. when there is no free tier like It’s been for Spotify to admired — they are offering in 115 out because no matter what Lyor everything is a subscription A manager who is furnishing Apple Music and . get their IPO up of the ground countries worldwide, they have Cohen says, it’s still a train wreck. service. When we have one the artist’s services to record, Terrestrial radio is going to because they’ve been under 31m subscribers who all pay by He claims that they are paying service that offers a free tier and publishing and merchandise run its course, especially when fire and sued by a lot of music the month, that is amazing. upwards of $3 per thousand has all the copyrights it makes it companies may be a short term interactive digital streaming is creators, in my opinion. I’m not Spotify has 140m users right streams to the record companies very hard for everybody else. fix for a developing artist who available in cars. It’s available now saying they shouldn’t have been, now and only 70m of them pay. — he’s off his rocker! It’s not Until they are really serious may not have a lot going on, but through the bluetooth function when you use people’s music and There are a lot of free people happening. Outside of America, about policing our copyrights we for a long term situation, it’s not on our smartphone but it’s not you don’t have a license you’re using Spotify so all the music where YouTube probably pays the are really not going to see a major good for their career. actually in the dashboard, once going to have to answer to that. royalty money that’s paid to best, it’s even worse in countries difference in YouTube. I’m generally opposed to ‘360’ it gets in there, it’s going to be all I think a lot of things are going music creators is diluted by virtue like eastern Europe and South They claim ‘dumb pipes’ deals because you develop your over [for radio] and that will level to level out for the good now we of having to make up for the free America. That’s an issue that has which falls on deaf ears because expertise in the music industry the playing field. are getting this legislation out the tier. If we can do away with the to be fixed. you don’t find any instance on – record companies are good way. The market is going to fix free tier, it’s going to be such a I really don’t know where YouTube where you can find at marketing and promoting Do you see deals with record itself. These DSPs have learned a healthy music business. Lyor Cohen is getting his facts child pornography, but you can 64 65 find a gazillion illegal music files every day, even though they have been sent cease and desist letters showing them these files are illegal. They just pop up again under a different title and URL, it’s like whack-a-mole. I hope their subscription service takes off but I can’t imagine that it will compete with such classy services like Apple, Tidal or Spotify.

There’s ongoing discussion about gender equality in the world at large right now — what’s your take on issues within the music business? There are a lot of qualified women out there but I think a lot of men don’t really like having women seated at the table. is run out of Japan and it’s a very patriarchal environment over there. So when people [in the US] who work for Sony Music are screaming gender equality, A REALLY GOOD I have to remind everybody, ‘Excuse me do you know where Steven Tyler the HQ of this company is?’ MAGAZINE ABOUT THE If you don’t want to have a glass What can music business more positions for women ceiling, open your own business companies do to help further hands down. If you look at all because if you want to work in change? these power lists, whether it’s corporate there is a glass ceiling It’s going to take a concerted in the music business, the legal UK MUSIC BUSINESS. and it is going to smack you in effort to hire women, empower profession, or corporate world, the head. I would like to see the them and put them in charge you’ve got 100 people and there needle move to the point where of companies and operations. is like 10 women. That is not it’s completely changed in my Any company that says it’s going enough. lifetime but I don’t know if that’s to focus on creating diversity And you know what? Women going to be possible, it’s going to can’t just do that and continue have impeccable instinct and take a lot. to hire the best person for the great judgment. If more women hired each job through normal course of If you put a woman in charge other and more women artists business because a man will of anything, shit gets done. It gets hired other women, that’s going come in. done quicker, better and with a to move the needle. You might have to search and lot more collaborative effort. I really credit [Atlantic co- focus for two months to find a Chairman] Julie Greenwald, she is woman, it might take you a little Final question, what are your amazing. She walks the walk and longer, but you will find the right future ambitions? What’s left to talks — 50% of Atlantic person. achieve in the future? Records’ [employees are] women. I saw a psychic three years ago That’s what I’m talking about! What else would you change and she told me I was going to You have all these women and about the music business and be a US Senator. I never really SUBSCRIBE: artists who come out and say, ‘We why? thought of that before, so who need gender equality, me too, me The Copyright Act for sure, it’s an knows what’s in the future! MUSICBIZSTORE.COM too’, but then everybody on their outdated bag of laws that has not business team is a man. It makes kept up with technology. This interview originally you wonder. In addition, we need to create appeared on MBW in March 2018. 66 67 Ib Hamad: ‘Artists need a manager who’ll run through a wall for them.’

Before the Roc Nation record deal of that – I was officially manager and worldwide success, Ibrahim from then on. Hamad (known by everyone as Ib) “It was a big moment, because did most things a manager would we then went on and released do for his friend from college, J our most successful album.” Cole... but he wasn’t officially his Hamad and Cole had met at manager. St. John’s University in New York Then, for quite a while after (Cole had moved there from the Roc Nation record deal and Fayetteville, ) and worldwide success, Hamad still struck up a friendship. did most things a manager would “We met playing pick-up do for Cole... but now he officially basketball, we got close, we’d go wasn’t his manager. out and party and drink, but I had Then, just ahead of the rapper’s no idea he rapped,” says Hamad. third album, 2014 Forest Hills “One day I got in his car and Drive, Cole shook things up. he had a freestyle playing over a “We had a retreat where we beat. I was like, That’s crazy, who brought in people from the is that? And he said, Oh, that’s management at the time, key me. I’d known him about two

“FIRST, I WAS ONLY INVOLVED AS A FRIEND – SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO SPREAD THE WORD; YOU GOTTA CHECK THIS OUT.”

people from the label, key people years by this point! from the booking agency, we’d “From then on, I was involved, just done the Dreamville label JV but first up only as a friend, and as with Interscope, so Joie ‘I.E.’ came, a fan – someone who wanted to and we spent two or three days spread the word, telling everyone, together,” explains Hamad. you gotta check this out.” “Cole gave his plan and his Word certainly spread, vision, he outlined everything, eventually, with the release of he said I want to do this, this and debut mix tape, this – and we went on to do all – as far as the discerning ears of those things. Jay-Z. “He was done playing their Cole became the first ever game and from here on he was signing to the hip-hop superstar’s just going to do what he wanted nascent Roc Nation label and to do, the way he wanted to do it. his debut album Cole World: The “He started cleaning things up; Sideline Story went straight to he got a new lawyer, new touring number one in 2011. staff – apart from our booking Two years later, agent, Rob Gibbs [ICM]. He was also topped the charts. Cole was taking control and I was a part on a roll. But he wasn’t entirely

68 69 happy. He wanted to take the we’re in the street celebrating, reins, alongside Hamad, and so running around mad happy. organized a retreat in order to “IT WAS GOOD TO He had an incredible meeting move forward. KNOW THAT COLE with Jay and that was basically Since then, 2014 Forest Hills that. It took a couple of months, Drive out-performed Born Sinner VALUED MY OPINION but he felt comfortable, it felt (and became Cole’s first million- AND HAD FAITH IN right, he could tell it was going to seller) and 2016’s 4 Your Only happen. set another new benchmark, ME. WE ROLLED THE What Jay and Roc Nation did becoming his fourth consecutive DICE. WE PROVED WE was give us a platform; because US No.1 album. And in April 2018, of the name attachment, people KOD, Cole’s fifth studio album, KNEW WHAT WE were going to pay attention, broke streaming records – once WERE DOING.” so now it was up to us. And we again topping the US charts. delivered a body of work that’s MBW sits down with Hamad at still considered a classic [The a London hotel between Cole’s Warm Up, 2009]. two sold out shows at the O2 Obviously we knew the name, At that point [Cole] was being Arena – part of a 60+ date tour. , legendary, managed managed by Mark Pitts and When it’s done, Cole will most Biggie, , etc. but because of ByStorm and I got to learn from likely go quiet, regroup, spend that status, we were a little bit, them. I was still doing day-to-day time with his family, play some yeah, okay, whatever, if you get it management, but I wasn’t his basketball, think, think some to him, let us know. manager. more, and then, in conjunction Later on, the story we got from with Hamad, start to plot the next Kirk was that he kept telling Mark, What were Roc Nation like to step in an incredible career... ‘You have to listen to this kid,’ but work with? Mark was just sort of, Yeah, I get In the beginning they were that all the time. Then, eventually, actually very small and still When you first found out that he was in Mark’s office, Mark went figuring stuff out. But that was Cole was a rapper and an artist, to the bathroom and when he good, because we’re very self- what was your reaction and how was gone Kirk slipped the CD on. sufficient. through Columbia – and I’ll never funny because after that I had and I remember some of the did it change things? Mark came back heard it, went Also, Cole’s very prideful, and he forget me and Cole were out with a conversation with Kendrick team saying maybe we should go One of the things about Cole is crazy for it and brought Cole in for was like, I’m not gonna bug this a [label] radio rep and he was on and he told us the same thing with that. I said no, we need to go that he doesn’t let a lot of people a meeting. guy [Jay Z], I’m gonna get to a a call with the whole company happened to him with Good Kid, with Power Trip. in, and that’s true to this day, so Mark’s president of Urban at place where he sees me as a peer. and he said, Your album’s coming M.A.A.D. City: they’re on a high, Myself and our partner Adam it actually helped that we were RCA as well, so we think we’re [Cole] never wanted to go to out next week, you should jump they’re mixing it, things are about were pushing for Power Trip friends before the music even about to get signed, but then every event and be a hanger-on. in and say hi. to get crazy – and then the label because it sounds brand new, came into it. Plus, my ear for nothing happened for four We knew that if we were gonna So [Cole] gets on the call, says says they’re going to do 80,000 or so if it wins, it’ll win big. If it loses music was always good, and he months. But that was because make a dent in the game, it was what’s up to everybody and whatever. it loses, of course. But Crooked trusted that, so it started out as Mark’s smart enough to know on us to make it happen. hands the phone back. But it’s Smile sounded like a radio song – more of a creative relationship that RCA’s not the place for [Cole] We did put a single out on speaker and we can still hear Did that initial success bring Power Trip was in its own lane. than anything else. – he wanted to play it to Jay Z. eventually [2011’s Work Out], but it, and someone says, ‘That was J challenges as well as rewards? That was a big moment for But there was also some This was 2008 and I remember even then, it wasn’t big by the Cole, we’re really excited to put For sure, because now you the team, because [Power Trip] strategizing – looking at what we Cole didn’t even have a phone at time the album [Cole World: The his album out and we think he have to play ball in a different worked. It was a turning point for wanted to achieve and working the time; his roommate had lent Sideline Story] came out. can do anywhere between 70- league. People are looking at us and for me. out the best way of doing that, him a burner, but that would only Then the album went to No.1, 75,000.’ you differently, you’ve got a No.1 It was that Cole putting projects together, charge in his car. My phone was and the numbers were 220,000 It wasn’t that it was a terrible album, you’re up for a Grammy, valued my opinion and had faith working on sequencing, that sort blowing up, because now Jay’s in the first week, and the whole number, but it was a time when things change a little. in me. We rolled the dice and of thing. heard the music and he wants industry changed, because labels people were saying J Cole’s gonna With the second album [2013’s it worked, we proved we knew Eventually we put out this mix to meet Cole, but no-one can get realized, the new “internet” artists flop, he’s not gonna make it, and Born Sinner], there was a lot of what we were doing, as a team, tape, but I was still just a friend; hold of him. were building a fan base – and we were feeling the pressure. pressure: [Cole’s] got to prove that and maybe we knew better than no one used the word ‘manager’. Eventually [Cole] must have you didn’t have to have a single Me and Cole were like, this this is for real. anyone else what worked for us. What was the big breakthrough got in his car, because the phone on the radio to sell records. doesn’t make sense, we feel it’s It’s funny, because when Cole for you both? finally turns on. He’s on his way to We learned a lot from that gonna be way higher than that, made Power Trip, we thought it Confidence must have been A guy named Kirk Lightburn, work in a call centre at the time, record, but I also think the but they’re the label, they should should be the single, because it quite high, because with Born who works for Bystorm, heard but I say, ‘Don’t even go in, Jay industry learned a lot from know, I guess. didn’t sound like anything else on Sinner you decided to go head- some songs and was like, I gotta wants a meeting with you!’ that record. When the numbers came the radio. to-head with Kanye! get this to Mark Pitts. He comes to pick me up and Roc Nation was coming out out it was such a relief. It’s But he also had [Laughs] Our album was 70 71 dropping June 25 at the time and That was when Cole said, ‘Man, describe as ‘failure’. up, which I respect and love to then Kanye announces his album I’m done listening to other people Cole was cool with that, his view see. Everybody: Steve Berman, [] is coming June 18. – why am I trying to be something was that if we’re going to fail, let’s Tim Glover, Laura Carter all work I get a call from Cole saying he I’m not comfortable with? Why fail our way, let’s not fail and feel directly with our team – and wanted to move our record up a am I dressing to play the rapper resentment towards anyone else. Nicole Bilzerian is super dope, she week. That was one of the biggest role?’ That’s when he organized What happened though, was does the marketing. moves of his career because the retreat the next year and that the numbers went up again, everybody was going, ‘What is this changed things up. this time it was about 350,000 What about your ambitions in guy thinking?’ week one. terms of management? You spent years as Cole’s To me this is a 24-hour job. And What did you think? ‘unofficial’ manager – What Tell us about the origins of this isn’t a knock on anybody who I was so with it, I was so excited; changed when you officially got Dreamville and how it became a does it, but I’ve never believed in these are the people we grew the job? label with Interscope. management companies that up listening to and helped mold I remember going to the label for Dreamville was just kind of our have a bunch of artists. who we are, but like I said earlier, and saying, thing in the beginning, before To me, in its truest sense, that’s you have to go and play ball ‘Right, we’re dropping the album Cole was even signed. You grow what management is; you have with those guys now, this is the on this date, we’re announcing it up and you see Roc-A-Fella, Bad to be involved. How can you have league you’re in and you have to three weeks before and we’re not Boy, and you want a crew. the time to be involved in all embrace that. dropping any music before then.’ And up until the second album, those different things when you The key then was to not get I remember someone at the it wasn’t really a business, just have 10 artists? It becomes about blown away. In week one I think label saying, ‘Y’all think Cole’s some merch. the check. I can see the check is Kanye did about 325,000 and Beyoncé?! We can’t do that!’ Then in 2013, Joie ‘IE’ [Joie very nice for these people, but it’s we did 297,000 – and then in the It was kind of a slap in the face, Manda] came to us with the never really been my thing. certain point. Cole looks long- music he’s done and on the second week we outsold him and but that same person pulled me opportunity to get a label deal at term. He said, I know what taking business end. in the third week we went to No.1. aside later and said, When you Interscope. What would your advice be to a that check is, it’s just about And when you’re around him, It felt like we belonged then. did that, we respected it, because Cole and I would be partners manager just starting out? keeping me around longer. you realize he’s done all that and After that album, [Cole] that’s how we moved when we in it, and we [could] just sign and To work on something that you’re So he let things play out until he’s still the same person. I’m push things that we love and are passionate about. It doesn’t his position was undeniable and from New York, and he’s a New passionate about. matter if you don’t have the tools, he could say, ‘Okay guys, let’s do York guy, I know people like him! We’re not hugely worried I didn’t come into this game with what’s right.’ That’s really impressive. “WHAT MATTERS TO COLE IS: GIVE ME WHAT about signing artist off numbers, any of the tools, but if you’re really Again, Jay Brown, Jay Z, we And then amongst our peers, I’M OWED. I DON’T WANT MORE OR LESS. we want to build careers. [That passionate and you believe, you’re sat with them, we talked about what Drake’s done is incredible approach] will take longer, but gonna figure it out, don’t worry. it, and they were cool, they and I would say his manager, [OWNERSHIP] OF HIS MASTERS WAS REALLY you’ll be around longer. I couldn’t have learned how respected it. Future, is one of my closest IMPORTANT TO HIM.” That’s kind of what happened to manage Cole from a book. What matters to Cole is: give friends in the industry and he’s with Cole: it took him longer than Some artists say to me they need me what I’m owed. I don’t want super smart. We always talk and I some of his peers, but once he a manager, and I always answer, more or less, I just want what I’m ask him questions. got there – Cole can be around as That manager’s probably already owed. His masters were really He understands numbers and changed as a person. He became first got in the game. [Cole did long as he wants now. in your team. What you need is important to him and he has great relationships. He even more laser-focused on what indeed announce just three someone who knows you – and it worked out well for everybody – can walk in different worlds. I he wanted to do and what he weeks before the release.] How do you find that label someone who will run through a well, at least for us! [laughs]. come from the passion of music wanted to say. We decided to only worry about relationship with Interscope? wall for you. It’s something we learned and I’m building out from there. I’ll never forget the moment our fanbase [and] energize them. Oh man, I love our relationship along the way from people like He comes from a different that I think changed Cole’s They’ll do the talking for us – but with Interscope, because they Tell us about the renegotiation Mark Pitts – play the game, then background so he understands attitude to the game. We were at without music. believe in what we do and they with Roc Nation that lead to you change the game. everything. the BET Awards and this stylist Cole has a unique fanbase. He give us the time to work. Our owning your own copyrights. It also meant that on album Obviously Top Dawg, I have so was saying to put on this Versace might not have the biggest – it’s relationship initially is with Joie, That came after album three; four we got to see how much much respect for, because I know shirt – can’t lie I was right there up there – but he does have the he brought us in and said, I we worked out a deal with Roc money the music generates and how he started that. with her pushing for it cause I most supportive and active fans. believe in what you guys do and Nation to get [Cole’s] masters, we were like, ‘Holy shit, this was I study what other people do, thought that shit was fly. We focused on them, and they the way you do it. He has his which was really important happening all the time? This and I take certain things, but at Cole was like, It’s not really me, spread the message for us. opinions, he has his say, but he because when Cole first signed, much?!’ the end of the day we do things this is the sort of thing one of these I remember having a discussion believes in us and he’s a great he didn’t have any clout, so it how we want to do them. other rappers would wear. Then with him and saying, If we’re partner. wasn’t the greatest deal, which there a career that you guys when he did walk out [wearing it], gonna do this, we have to be okay From there, I now have a cool, that happens to everyone. see as a template? This interview originally someone from back home texted with these first week numbers great relationship with John But he never renegotiated. I don’t know if there’s anybody appeared on MBW in November him and said, ‘Someone else has coming back bad, we have to be Janick, who’s brilliant and has He could of, but he was like, No, who’s done it better than Jay Z, 2017. It has been edited for that shirt on man!’ okay with what some people will built things from the ground I’ll wait. He wanted to get to a in terms of the amount of great length and topicality. 72 73 We sat down with him to chat deal specifics, competing with major labels and the future of radio, streaming and hip-hop.

Why launch an independent Justin Totten Photo: company in 2010 – a point when streaming hadn’t yet properly taken off? Streaming wasn’t on the horizon for most people but it was definitely on the horizon for me. I had worked in Silicon Valley in the late ‘90s so I was already involved in streaming technology.

Photo: Justin Totten Photo: When I was in college, we were embedding music videos into web pages and streaming MP3s so I always knew it was going to Ghazi Shami: ‘You get the best out of an be the future, it was just a matter of timing. The main thing that was missing was broadband artist if you treat them like a partner, access. A mantra I always use is: access creates culture. If there is no rather than someone who is subservient.’ access, there is no culture. The access to data has created the For a company that launched on seems like we’ve had this massive department; Tina Davis was possibility for streaming culture little more than a credit card and explosion, but if you look under recently appointed EMPIRE’s VP to emerge. a belief, EMPIRE has enjoyed an the hood and follow the company of A&R after spending 10 years at impressive trajectory. for the last eight years, we’ve had Def Jam as SVP of A&R, before How has streaming changed Founded in 2010 by Ghazi a lot of stuff bubbling under the going on to manage Chris Brown. what you do? Left to right: Ghazi Shami, Mozzy (artist), Nima Etminan Shami, the music company – surface for a long time.” Shami is a former Silicon Valley Streaming is the best shit that’s which currently sits at the center computer whizz who made his ever happened. a growth and a forecasting at different manufacturing of the burgeoning US hip-hop name in music as mastering I hoped and prayed for this day, standpoint. It helps us make companies that were called market – was the third biggest engineer with his own studio in I saw what happened with better marketing decisions ‘value added resellers’ in that independent distributor in the US “A MANTRA I USE IS: the , where really early and how it changed because of the trends we can era. So I felt like, How do you do last year. (Behind TuneCore and ACCESS CREATES he worked with local hip-hop user behavior, how video follow and the analytics we have distribution and add value? It was CD Baby, according to BuzzAngle artists like The Game, Mac Dre consumption changed and what access to. really simple. data.) CULTURE. WITHOUT and Tupac’s group Outlawz. happened to all the bootleggers We are making more creative I didn’t have a motive, it was In 2011, EMPIRE provided ACCESS, THERE’S After building out INgrooves’ in the Walmart parking lot and marketing decisions and we can just about helping artists, half of distribution for ’s urban division as a consultant, the brick and mortar stores make more informed marketing which are my friends. debut album Section.80 released NO CULTURE.” he saw a gap in the market like Blockbuster when they spend. I can hop on my computer via Top Dawg Entertainment. for a modern music company disappeared. and in 30 seconds see what a You signed a deal with Universal It has since worked on singles that blurred the lines between I knew that when streaming record made in the last 24 hours earlier this year. Do you remain and albums by a wealth of artists Artists aren’t the only ones distributor and label, and EMPIRE found its way to the masses it for us a company. That provides the owner of Empire? including Anderson .Paak, Cardi who’ve noticed EMPIRE’s growing was born. would cannibalize piracy and that a much more intelligent way of EMPIRE is wholly independently B, DRAM, & , significance. In April, Universal Shami explains: “I felt like is what we’re seeing happening. doing business. owned, nobody else has any Migos, Shaggy and . Music Group announced a distribution in the modern User behavior has changed in a equity in [the company]. And last year, EMPIRE reached deal whereby EMPIRE would space, post brick and mortar and whole generation of children that What’s your strategy when The deal was really just No. the Billboard chart lend its specialized approach physical, shouldn’t be just an after used to pirate music, now their working with artists? formalizing what was already with the debut album from to distribution, digital sales, thought, it should be the nature parents are buying them Apple My strategy, if you can call it that, going on. We were already XXXTentacion. promotion and marketing as part of what you do as a company.” Music and Spotify subscriptions. I is honesty and transparency. working in conjunction with “EMPIRE has been built very of a multi-year partnership with Today, EMPIRE has 50 think the freemium model was a When I started a label, I just Interscope a lot and some of systematically, and slowly but all UMG labels. employees and Shami is eyeing genius way to do business. wanted to engage people and the other labels under the UMG surely,” Shami tells MBW. Shami is also serious, however, worldwide expansion. (The UK is Streaming has been amazing service the marketplace. umbrella wanted to do the same “From a public point of view, it about his firm’s own A&R especially in his sights.) for the business both from In Silicon Valley I worked thing. 74 75 We sat down with Lucian Most companies were not us to get them to 30 miles an Grainge and I was like, ‘Look, in willing to do that because the hour then they wrote the big some situations we can tug at the artists weren’t generating revenue check. But the company was same dollar bill and tear it apart, yet. It was sweat equity that was in a much different space then but I would prefer that we reach invested, not a lot of money. than it is now. When I started into our pockets, turn the dollar I was by myself, I didn’t have Alec Donnell Photo: bill into change and we can all So you have signed rights any employees and we now share the change.’ ownership deals before? have over 50. As we mature as a Yeah, sometimes. When we do company, the retention of artists How does the agreement work rights ownership they are usually is changing. in reality? joint ownership. We used to be good at only We are distributing a lot of artists I don’t believe there is any getting artists from 0 – 10, then that they are finding and signing one proper deal that we should we were good at 0 – 30; now we to their labels, that they feel sign, it’s very case specific. We do can do 0 – 100 and actually break might be better suited to be in a have standard deals that are very records on an international level. younger, more fluid . run of the mill, like many of our As we progress as a company, distribution deals which are still our win-to-loss ratio [vs the A down-streaming deal? non exclusive. majors] is moving heavily in our I don’t like the connotation of Outside of that, we do all favor. that, I would call it a horizontal kinds of different deals but the stream! Let’s call it a lateral move. one thing we don’t do is royalty You started to answer my next based deals — most of our deals question: is Empire able to truly In the press release announcing are rooted in the ideology of launch and develop the career the deal with Universal, they partnership. of a global superstar without the praised Empire’s “unique help of a major? approach” to distribution. What Yes. The digital distribution age EMPIRE artist Cierra Ramirez is unique about your approach? “THE DIGITAL has leveled the playing field for We are still very excited about independents in terms of access. 0 – 10 in a marketplace that is DISTRIBUTION AGE I push a button and a track is Are the major labels still not require mainstream TV and radio promo team worked at major looking to pick things up at 30 HAS LEVELED THE on Spotify, YouTube and Apple at an advantage due to size of and certain artists can be built labels formerly. and overpay for them. Music worldwide. Then it’s up budgets? through SoundCloud, YouTube, I think the unique approach PLAYING FIELD FOR to myself and our marketing, I would say the playing field is touring or through social media How does your A&R team is that we are still willing to get INDEPENDENTS IN publicity and radio promo teams level now as far as budgets are and so on. compare to a major label’s? into the trenches and do the to make sure that we have all concerned. We are doing pretty It really depends on what type I think our A&R team is one of the heavy lifting, and we are not TERMS OF ACCESS... the i’s and the t’s crossed – and well financially as a company, of artist you are talking about and things that’s most special about afraid to work with artists that IT’S LIBERATING that we’ve talked to the relevant but more importantly, many of what magnitude of critical mass the way we do business. have nothing going on but great people in all the different markets the things that used to cost an you are trying to reach. The analogy I like to use is, You music. We get involved very early. TO HAVE THAT AT to work the projects. exorbitant amount have been We’ve had a few things reach are the car, I’m the GPS. My job is We’ve taken the stance that it’s YOUR DISPOSAL.” We have local publicity in reduced. critical mass as an independent to give you directions and to keep okay to get our hands dirty in a foreign territories, we work radio, We do a lot of very creative and they competed right you from crashing, and every once marketplace where people don’t we distribute physical goods, but influencer marketing campaigns alongside anything that a major in a while maybe I’ll give you a want to get their hands dirty the most important component via social media; even the cost of label had. shortcut to your destination, but anymore. I really believe that you get the of all of it is digital and being able creating video assets has been my job is not to re-create the car. best out of an artist if you treat to have a record readily available reduced dramatically. You can Major labels will also say services I gave you a deal because I How do you make that work them like your partner, rather all over the world. create a video for $10,000 now companies are great but you believed in the vehicle that you economically? than someone who is subservient You can be in , that looks like a $100k video from need us to break radio… arrived in. We take a very laissez We’ve worked with a lot of artists to you. So most of our deals are and listen to the same record a three years ago. You can see our records on the faire, hands-off approach to A&R early that go on to become structured like partnerships and kid in San Francisco is listening to, Radio is not as important radio charts right alongside and we only encroach when and superstars in the business and we most of the percentages are in and they may have shared it via as it used to be, at least not major labels. where necessary. We are getting still have a lot of those catalogs. favor of the artist. WhatsApp, or . domestically in the US, and that In fact, I think last year in really good at making records Early on in the company we That access didn’t exist even used to be a tremendous cost. marketshare at radio we closed now – I spend most of my life were signing talent without Are you ever competing against five, six, seven years ago. It’s We have artists who are getting right in the middle of the pack in the studio. It gives me a any advances, and people were major labels to sign talent? really liberating to have that at multi-platinum records without and ahead of a few major labels. much better understanding doing deals with us because they We are always competing against your disposal and I think the ever touching radio because the We’ve built an amazing radio when I’m speaking and knew we accounted properly, major labels. wind in our sails is our ingenuity music is bred through the culture promo team that goes out and communicating to the artist we picked up our phone, and we We lost a lot of artists to major and approach to how we work and not via mainstream TV and busts their asses to promote because we are operating on provided marketing services. labels because they waited for with our partners. radio anymore. Certain artists still records. A lot of the guys on my the same wavelength. 76 77 The company strategy overall Eastern Europe, the Middle East is that we can all speak to each and Africa. other and communicate. We haven’t compartmentalized Hip-hop over-indexes on everybody into a particular streaming services —to the point section, we have an all hands on that it is now comfortably the deck mentality. USA’s biggest genre. Why do you think that is? Here’s some questions on the You could skin the cat so many wider marketplace… when it different ways, but one of the comes to promoting music, main things about hip-hop is the where do radio and streaming way it’s created and distributed. fit in? What comes first in your That’s in a very fluid fashion, planning of a campaign? so access to the content is Typically, we like to see a creating that locomotive charge record stream before we go to into the marketplace. radio. I like to say that radio is If you’re in the studio with a the exclamation point on the really good artist, sometimes a sentence but you have to lay the record can be knocked out in 30 sentence first. minutes. Twenty four hours later, That’s not always true, what a distribution company and sometimes you have lightning in record label like EMPIRE can do is a bottle and you have a record flood the marketplace with it. that is going viral and you go to We can already be on the DSPs, radio immediately. have a press release written, The new record that artwork created, and be working we’re working called “Taste” did on a lyric video or shooting a 45 million plays streaming-wise video in the studio for a viral week one so we went to radio release. The nature of the way the right away. content is created and exploited, Sometimes I go to radio even and the way it’s sent into the if there is no streaming story just marketplace, is totally different because I use it as an audience than any other genre of music. builder. I think the streaming age is ripe One thing that a lot of the ALLBLACK Lestyn Photo: Park for hip-hop and for urban music major labels don’t do that we do, in general… Latin trap, Spanish is a lot of regional radio support. audiences, that’s when you have sell anything but music so their hip-hop, , afrobeat… all

A record doesn’t always have to the potential to have a hit record. health and success is vital to the of these urban genres are created Molly Brazy Alec Donnell Photo: be a national record or a national music business. in the same way that hip-hop is promo spend, sometimes I just What’s the future of radio? If they are successful, there is a created and R&B is starting to do distribution world. Would you We are building more creative want to get an artist hot in the If radio can get back to curating lot to be said about the value of the same. A good friend of mine ever consider selling to a major? facilities in different parts of region and give them a nucleus. music and being culturally music. If they are unsuccessful, is a pretty prominent R&B artist Would Tesla sell to Mercedes? the country so rather than just If you look at music and records, relevant and being early then there is a lot to be said about in the States and he was telling signing talent, we can actually we are all trying to do the same they will be all right. consumers’ belief in the integrity me recently, ‘Look, we used to get Understood! So how about your work with talent we believe in thing which is to build audience If they continue to fall behind and value of selling music. the stems for records and spend future ambitions for Empire as and create from scratch. and get eyes and ears. what is happening in the now For a long time, people said a month mixing my single. Now an independent company? I like being involved in the So if I am struggling to get eyes then maybe they write their own music has no value, it should be I get two tracks, sing over them A continued evolution and creative process – I don’t just want and ears from the streaming death certificate. I don’t know free. Streaming proves that is not and put them out.’ trajectory of what we have been to be an operational CEO who sits services, I might go get eyes and which way it’s going to go but it’s necessarily true because people This guy is catching Top 5 able to accomplish for the past behind a desk, that’s not really my ears from radio and vice versa. going to be really interesting. are paying for these subscriptions records at the urban AC format. eight years. I want to build a passion in life. I might get it through social and Spotify’s success is vital in That’s a very new way of doing bigger, better, and stronger I like being level media, via YouTube, through What are your hopes for Spotify that preserving that belief. R&B music which is much staff and open more offices in with the artist fighting for things touring support or an influencer after its IPO, as well as the I believe that streaming is only more akin to the way we create international markets. that I believe in. campaign on Instagram. launch of YouTube Music? in diapers. I think we have a long hip-hop. The publishing division of the Audience can come from I’m rooting for everybody to do way to go. We’ve barely even company is growing rapidly and This interview originally anywhere and when you are able really well. Spotify is the only penetrated merging markets like Final questions... there’s been I’m investing a lot of time and appeared on MBW in June 2018 to multiply multiple segments of big player in music that doesn’t South East Asia, Latin America, a lot of consolidation in the energy into that. and has been edited for length. 78 79 because they were still making albums for artists. Matt Pincus: ‘This is probably the most SONGS won by providing a level of intimate A&R and creative exciting time I can remember in the service that was better than writers and artists were getting from the majors at the time. music business.’ We competed where the big companies were weak. History will show that Matt Pincus is one of the most successful – if But the modern music business not the most successful – music is a different story? industry entrepreneurs of his Yes, the business is always in flux. generation. The major labels have organized Even more handily for the around singles, and the major purposes of this interview, he’s publishers now have leadership also one of the smartest. focused on contemporary The New York-based exec [artists]. So, if you’re going to founded SONGS Music Publishing differentiate yourself today, you’re back in 2004. not going to do it on the same With the help of partners factors that SONGS did. Ron Perry and Carianne The music companies that will Marshall, SONGS became a pop succeed [in 2018] are those who powerhouse, with a sterling can build and engage audiences reputation for being ahead of the in the streaming world. Going XXXTentacion A&R curve. forward, the people who know Its signings, including , how to get into the conversation, Eighteen months ago, [the Diplo/Major Lazer and The identify things that are going market] was all about songs, and Weeknd (Abel Tesfaye) built the on in the culture, and build the not about artists. But there are “SONGS SUCCEEDED reputation and value of SONGS creative strategy around that, are recent signs that kids are now BECAUSE WE to the point that the company going win. buying into the story around artists eventually sold, late last year, for There are some big more than they were. Interestingly, ATTACKED a reported $160m – to a fund independent labels that have it’s the [acts] that have the most CONTEMPORARY managed by Kobalt Capital. And some of this spare time (a Second, if you’re going to try been around for a long time – activity outside of pure music that (Another of SONGS’ more slight, albeit generous, portion) to compete with the majors, Beggars Group, Ultra, Epitaph, are getting noticed. PUBLISHING. WE recent signings, XXXTentacion, is being used to answer MBW’s you need to be strong where etc. Those guys speak very well Either because they’re super- FILLED A VACUUM IN is currently in the upper regions questions – on A&R, on the they’re not – because they’ve got to their audiences, and have for edgy, or because they’re super- of worldwide charts for tragic SONGS sale, on Sony’s Spotify scale and capital resources that a very long time – whether that’s active, artists that are particularly A&R AND SYNC.” reasons. Pincus says the rapper’s payout and on ’s potential you don’t. dance kids, kids, metal, active on socials are gaining premature death is an “extremely in entertainment. SONGS succeeded because hardcore kids etc. [traction]. Records are breaking sad situation for everyone Oh, and on the future of the we attacked contemporary What’s the next iteration of in new ways – whether it’s the connected to SONGS”). entire music business and publishing – an area that was that? The way forward is going to SoundCloud rap thing which is You often hear that ‘tribes’ With SONGS now fully plugged- everything in it... out of focus for the majors be speaking to a new generation totally bottom up, or major label dedicated to certain types of in to Kobalt’s global systems, at the time – and we filled a of kids in a much more person-to- artists like Post Malone who keep artists/genres are dying. You’re Pincus finds himself with vacuum that existed in A&R, and person manner. peppering the market with music saying they might actually be something he hasn’t had for a If you were to hypothetically synchronization. The market that those all the time – and I’m not sure the coming back? while – a bit of spare time on rethink the business you created When we started, the majors audience-driven independents big companies really know what’s We don’t know to what degree his hands. with SONGS, which aspects were all in merger mode. They have occupied for so long will going on yet. kids are going to pattern their Some of this spare time is being would you try and replicate? were buying and selling each still be there, but the curve will That’s an opening for social lives around music going used to inject wisdom in new No matter what aspect of the other, and they took their eyes off be filled out by people that are independents. Go get it, kids! forward. It’s not going to be the directions: Pincus was recently music business you’re in, the of contemporary artists. marketing in . I would tell a kid starting a same way that it was when I was unveiled as a Special Advisor to focus should always be music On the publishing side, they Tomorrow’s artists will need a business today to take the same a kid, where the metal-heads sat Snapchat, as well as an Executive and the artists who create it. That were dropping A&R budgets for new breed of champions. ethic that SONGS did: put artists in one place in the lunchroom, in Residence at LionTree – that’s was our priority at SONGS from new writers – by 40%-plus, in and music first and think about and the punk rockers sat in the media/tech investment the beginning, and any business I the last year I was at EMI. On the Give us an example of one thing where you can uniquely compete another place. bank which acted for SONGS started or ran in or around music label side, they weren’t seeing the that this new breed needs to with scale players. Then go figure But I think there is some during its sale. would do the same thing. singles and collaboration market, focus on. out how to scare up a crowd. evidence that kids, at some 80 81 point, buy into the story of the so competing in that space as a world, a record is nothing until it’s individuals around the music, not label was expensive. something; then, the minute it “ just the tracks. Four or five years ago, breaking becomes something, everybody Part of SONGS’ success was that a single in the United States knows about it. So, the price BUSINESS LOOKS LIKE we looked at music publishing as at [radio] format [cost], like, of finding talent skyrockets, RETAIL MARKETING. not just a collection of copyrights, $100,000. Breaking it at pop because everyone knows when but as a community of people could be $200,000 or more. And something’s about to become a PLAYLISTS ARE whose thoughts and ideas the [model of the] album float hit, and it takes millions of dollars DISPLAYING SONGS, resonated with an audience. The behind the lead singles is gone. to sign these artists. catalog value came after that. So, no cushion. That’s a tough business for RATHER THAN How many shots can you take an independent company to CREATING ORGANIC Surely streaming playlists aren’t as an compete in. DEMAND.” the thing that elevates the when the ones that don’t work But, in a world where there ‘artist’ from the ‘song’. make no revenue at all? On the are more channels to reach The playlist business at the publishing side, [we] could do audiences with marketing-driven streaming services looks to enough publishing deals with the music – as opposed to promotion- me a little bit more like retail kind of capital base we had for driven music – you don’t need There were rumors that the marketing. [Playlists] are that to make sense. But on the a gatekeeper to break a record. bid you accepted for SONGS displaying songs, rather than recording music side, because Maybe that’s a time when the from Kobalt Capital wasn’t the creating organic demand. it took so much money to get role of the independent begins to biggest amount of money that As time goes on, I think the records in radio, we knew you shine. you could have taken. audience around music will can’t take shot after shot there There are some examples of Yes, that’s absolutely true. become more stratified and more and survive. companies that are starting to do organized around channels; you’ll The plan for SONGS was to a good job marketing outside of So why did you do that deal? start to see audience creation be in the same deal flow as radio in certain circumstances. There were many reasons why we move back down the curve the majors, but to be seen as That could be an early sign that decided to sell to Kobalt, towards where music is being ‘the other one’. Historically, a new kind of independent label and none of them were about created. those companies have done is going to become a real growth price. First of all, I’ve known Look at what’s going on with very well; Island, A&M, Chrysalis, area going forward. Willard [Ahdritz,] for 15 years, artists like Tekashi69 and Trippie Jive, Zomba – they were all and I’ve known Laurent Hubert Redd. People are interested in independents in the same deal Which companies are you for maybe a decade; they are the whole story around them – flow as the majors. A white cat in referring to in particular? Is honorable people. controversial or not – and not just a litter of black . AWAL one of them? I knew that, when it came to in one song versus another song. At the time we created SONGS, AWAL was a very smart decision doing a deal, they were going You’ve got a lot of artists telling you could get into that position for Kobalt. It puts them in the called 88Rising that’s geared international repertoire breaking to be straightforward, efficient, new stories – particularly on the with a modest amount of capital. conversation around the new towards an Asian demographic in the United States. It’s been prepared, and ready to go. hip-hop side – but it will happen In the record business, it was record business, and particularly and doing a great job reaching happening with UK [artists] for SONGS is a business we built in other areas of music too, where much harder. around middle-market [artists] in kids through music here and decades and decades, and with over a 14-year period – how we you’ve got more and more artists the music business that could be in Asia. I’m seeing a few other European acts periodically. But exited was very important to me, releasing lots of material, and How significantly have those a real next-level play. similar plays aimed at different the fact that you now have an in terms of being able to sleep at building a story around their own parameters on the recorded There’s a company I audiences. With Spotify and Asian act breaking to No.1 in the night. narrative. music side – the barriers to entry particularly like called Create other big players clearly focused US is substantial. The second thing is that Kobalt at US radio especially – changed? Music Group that is a leader in on video, that could be an From an industry perspective, has built a scale infrastructure Publishing was always your Things have shifted. The distance rights management, but has interesting area. the Korean music business that could minimize the cost of main focus at SONGS. Why? between a record coming out been doing a very good job of Overall, there are some signs operates very differently to the switching the copyrights from We’ve got to to the time and a record being ready to go discovering artists on its platform that there’s a new energy in terms United States music business. one place to another. I was when SONGS was really investing to pop radio is longer than I’ve and backing them. of companies that are able to Whether that sort of top-down worried about my songwriters’ heavily. At that point, breaking ever seen it. I think that [gap] They’re using their knowledge create value in identifying and setup you see at Korean music money – about having problems records was all about radio. And, will increase as the playlisting in the streaming world to find promoting talent outside of the companies is going to be the shifting the money flow from one as the market pivoted from business really begins to mature. and break talent in a new way. [industry’s] normal channels predominant way that things place to another. albums towards singles, radio That’s an area of opportunity Empire’s also done a very good like radio and playlist-focused happen in the US? I don’t know Kobalt has a lot of experience really gained strength. in the recorded music space, job of differentiating itself, in distribution. I’d go that far. doing that, and they have The rhythm [radio] format, but the companion question is terms of bringing new talent to But, from a repertoire technology that’s second-to-none. and the pop [radio] format how records are actually going the marketplace in a creative way. Are you watching the rise of BTS, perspective, I think it’s very They are a safe pair of hands on became the predominant way to differentiate themselves in the The idea of audience plays and that South Korean model? interesting, and quite indicative of the back end. that records were entering the marketplace. centered around video is an It’s really interesting, for sure. the kind of global markets you will I could have sold to a major, marketplace [in the US]. And In the primitive streaming evolving space; there’s a company You’re going to see more see increasingly going forward. which, as an independent, was 82 83 not the preferable route, simply revenues are regulated. So, it’s lot of dry-powder capital with lots because we were an independent not a revenue environment of money chasing deals. One of company. It felt good for our that’s purely driven by demand, the big differences is that, say, five catalog to remain independent. and how that plays out will be a or six years ago, in terms of music Last but not least, Kobalt significant determinant of where business investment, there were a represents global superstar talent. music publishing revenues go. couple of big bodies on the road. So, our writers would be in good On the other hand, there’s The Terra Firma acquisition of company. To put them in the been some good news lately: the EMI was a very bad signal to the company of Max Martin and now recent CRB decision [pushing market. That massive overpay lost Childish Gambino, and many up US streaming revenues 44%] a lot of money. more, made me feel this was the was good, and there’s been some Now, it’s a different story. EMI right fit. talk of Consent Decree reform on Music Publishing created a very We had a heart and soul in the performing rights side in the good return to a sovereign fund SONGS. We built it in our own United States, which could be a in a very short period of time on a image and, money aside, how really positive event. really big piece of money. That’s a and where we put our legacy When you get into multiples, very positive event. became my life’s work of the not all publishing catalogs Then, if you look at the Warner company. are equal. A great catalog is a Music Group, it’s pretty clear that So, at the end of the day, I had mattress made of sheets – song- they’re at a big return [for Access many options; some of them by-song, cash flows stacked up. Industries]. So, you have a couple of very good events on the bigger end of the scale, where people have “THERE WERE MANY REASONS WHY WE earned a really good return on a DECIDED TO SELL TO KOBALT AND NONE OF sizable investment in music. At the same time that you have a lot THEM WERE ABOUT THE PRICE. I’VE KNOWN of capital in the market, looking WILLARD FOR 15 YEARS.” for deals. That combination is going to create a robust dynamic. I think that will last for a while, and things are going to be were financially well north of How deep into the catalog is expensive. Lorde Kobalt [‘s offer], but the deal we the revenue generated? You have did felt like an elegant and an to look at the depth of rights; how As ever, it’s about buying the notwithstanding, Sony growing its this. The recent announcement paradigm shift for artists to appropriate end to the story. long is the retention period that a right assets... stake in EMI Music Publishing to that Spotify is going to start, decide that they were okay to be publisher has over a catalog? When [Stephen] Swid, 90% with a $2.3bn deal? in effect, advancing cash [off] on one platform exclusively; in Do you think there will be In these very early days, it [Martin] Bandier, and [Charles] With respect to the EMI Spotify earnings could be a my estimation, despite a handful enough growth in the music looks like streaming is weighted Koppelman bought CBS Songs purchase, it was the natural step in that direction, or it of one-off examples, the days publishing market to justify to contemporary music rather in the ‘90s people thought they place for that catalog to go. could simply just be a cash where Spotify will go into full the current trend for 15X-plus than catalog. People need to pay paid a crazy price. That was one There was a forward matching flow enhancement to artists on competition with Universal to multiples in acquisitions? attention to that when investing of the best acquisitions in the right on deals that the [EMP- Spotify’s platform. sign exclusive rights to artist on There’s no question that, over the in publishing. It might turn history of the music business. Buy owning] consortium had and, For a lot of reasons, I don’t a worldwide basis are not on the next, let’s say, 24 to 36 months, around as streaming develops. the right one! operationally, the switching cost think Spotify and Netflix are the map right now. you’re going to see revenue Over a long period of time, it’s to anybody other than Sony same company. Audio streaming Also, while Spotify is a business expansion in music. Consumption Why is investor confidence so tended to be that the value of would have been punitively high. and video streaming are really that has come to a considerable and subscribers are both high in music publishing? music rights rises. But you need Sony was in a structurally different; I don’t think that you’re scale, it still has to do licensing growing at a fast clip. So, you’re When I started, there were a to have the stomach for it across different position than any arms- going to see that replication deals with the majors. To go going to have a rising revenue bunch of hedge funds that cycles. If you’re trying to get in length buyer. of the [original programming] into full competition with their environment. were piling money into music and out within five or six years, I Netflix model in audio. licensors right now is a big risk. Something which is often publishing, and multiples got up think that’s really dangerous. Spotify has reportedly started One major reason for that is overlooked is that it’s not the to 20x. Then, all of the sudden, Do you have any concerns signing direct licensing deals that the predominant model in It’s certainly caused a lot of same situation for publishers as the economic crash happened, or general thoughts on Sony with artists, and using some music is everything, wherever rumblings at the majors. it is for labels with streaming; in and people got nervous, and a Corporation’s two big moves clever calculations to benefit the consumer wants it. So, music Over the next 24 to 36 months, some ways, there’s good news whole bunch of them decided to in the publishing market? themselves and those acts. Do services need to have 100% of you could see the tectonic plates and bad news for publishing. sell to Bertelsmann. First, snaffling the additional you think that’s a step towards content, and artists want [their in the music business really Publishing is a regulated Now, we’re entering into 50% of Sony ATV for $750m the service ‘signing’ talent? tracks] on all platforms. start to shift, and the traditional business; 75% of music publishing another period where there is a and now, regulatory decisions I’m a little bit wait-and-see on It would be a really substantial owners of music start to switch 84 85 over to new hands. finite amount. Is it half a billion? So, it’s just out of step with how Or, we could see the current Is it a billion? Is it 30 to 40% of the world is working, and it’s got owners in the majors all retrench, mobile smartphone penetration, “WE’RE LOOKING AT A to change. and go for a second stage of the globally? PERIOD WHERE THE My other answer to the ‘magic rocket. I don’t know, and I think that’s a wand’ question is this: we’re I don’t think we really know yet, really interesting thing to watch. MUSIC BUSINESS – moving to a period of much more even though people are watching How many subscribers – and THE WAY IT OPERATES alignment of interest between the Spotify stock price hour-to- at what price? They’re the key artists and the companies that hour like a heart rate monitor. questions. – MIGHT ACTUALLY, work with their music. I think the truth is, everybody FUNDAMENTALLY When I was running SONGS, I [in music] is playing a longer Not everybody going to pay CHANGE.” would listen to all this animosity game than that right now. $9.99, that’s for sure. that was going on: about how One of the things that you see labels are screwing artists, or Are you keeping an eye on right now is that consumption how publishers didn’t account Tencent, and what it’s up is massive, but it’s in places you properly – all these gripes that to – taking its minority space don’t necessarily expect. crush it; they are just tremendous went back decades. And they in Spotify while obviously At SONGS we had a song with people, and I can’t wait to didn’t sound anything like the consolidating its dominance of two billion global streams on see what they do in their new relationships that we had with music in China? What if Tencent YouTube alone, massive volume, positions. our writers. now buys a minority stake in but 8% were in the United States Some of the relationship UMG, for example? – and 12% were in Mexico. If I could give a magic wand, and friction probably goes back to This is what I mean by ‘tectonic Major Lazer Right now, in places like you could change something another time, and is now ready to plates’. There’s a lot of dry-powder Mexico, and Indonesia, and the about the music business today, be retired. capital in the market at a big the global subscriber levels are Look back a couple years ago: Philippines, you’re seeing massive what would it be, and why? As we continue to see more scale – not only from big, strategic rising to their ultimate outcome. Adele comes in with an eight consumption levels, on ad- Can I first give you a wonky transparency, more professional operators like Tencent, but also When they begin to plateau, million-equivalent seller in a supported platforms in zero-CPM answer? There is no way that the accountability, and more capital sovereign wealth funds, and things could for year and crowds out the whole environments. Basically no better music publishing industry can from different places coming into Softbank-type of vehicles. repertoire owners. market. than piracy. deliver a global license to a digital the market, it’s time for everyone Whether that results in a wave If consumption in the future Are the digital businesses going company today. It makes no on the music side to put down of M+A activity around music at Do you follow the optimism of is concentrated on big pop acts, to figure out how to monetize sense and it drives any forward- our axes, move past the dynamics the high end or not will be really Goldman Sachs, and its report they’re going to suck money out advertising there? We don’t really thinking person crazy. of yesterday, and figure out a interesting to see. projecting over 800m music of everybody else’s pocket in a know. But when we start reaching If a Google, Apple, Amazon, way to align our interests going When I worked at EMI in 2002, streaming subscribers by 2030? fixed revenue environment. And, saturation levels on $9.99 Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, forward because we’re up against the iTunes download business A lot of people assume linear so far, streaming numbers are premium subscribers, that will be anyone, wants to get a license to some pretty big interests. was just coming to the fore, and growth when they look at music pretty correlated with pop radio – a really important question. use music around the world, the everybody was saying, ‘Oh, it’s now. I’m skeptical of that. at least in the US. publishers can’t give it to them. With that in mind, do you revolutionary, and everything’s Right now, subscriber levels On the other hand, if What kind of major music That is a structural flaw in the have a take on the surprisingly going to change.’ Instead, it kind are growing at a similar rate as companies get good at channel company leader do you think business. So, one just-add-water generous way Sony Music is of ended up being a version 1.1 consumption on the major DSPs. marketing and niche audiences Ron Perry is going to make way to change music publishing dealing with paying out its of what we had already seen in What happens when subscriber start to build on streaming at Columbia, and same with would be to remove that friction Spotify equity money? the CD business – just smaller. additions begin to slow, and platforms, all the way down the Carianne Marshall at Warner/ from the market. Unfortunately, Somebody retweeted that story It didn’t fundamentally shift the consumption explodes? That’s spectrum, in a more efficient way, Chappell in her COO role? it’s complicated... when you guys put it out, and way the business worked. an existential inevitability, it’s you could see that money more My biggest point of pride in the I laughed about the comment. Now, we’re looking at a period definitely going to happen. When evenly distributed. exit from Songs is watching Ron Is it, ultimately, vested territorial It said something like, “A major where the music business – the it does, you will have a declining Anybody who owns a specific and Carianne get major music interest that is stopping that does something nice... and way that it operates, the people penny rate environment, because piece of repertoire today is going industry leadership positions. It from happening? everybody is freaking out.” who own the assets, and how it’s a fixed pot of money that is to see their catalog affected defines the way this business is There are multiple reasons why Everybody tries to read politics talent is discovered and infused in paid by streaming services to in ways that I don’t think are going to run tomorrow. it’s the case, including some into anything. I don’t know Sony’s the marketplace – might actually, music [rights-holders]. predictable. So, I don’t think Ron is probably the best music regulatory stuff, but it was a policy motivation for doing what fundamentally change. I think it might get weird at you’re likely to see a linear ‘up- person of his time. His A&R source of tremendous frustration they did. Barring a major event in the that point... and-to-the-right’ pattern in the skills are second-to-none. He’s a for me at SONGS – the fact that But any time that a music economy that results in a global numbers over the next 12 years, phenomenal talent and I think I couldn’t deal, on a global basis, company decides they’re going to downturn, I think this is probably Is that necessarily bad news? despite what the bankers say. he’s going to do a great job. with digital businesses. distribute more money to more the most exciting time that I can No, but I question whether the The big question is, how many Carianne is probably the finest At the same time, music is artists is a good day, in my book. remember in the music business. explosion in consumption will [potential] global subscribers are publisher I know. She’s young more global than it’s ever been: The period of time that I’m be evenly distributed around the there? I don’t think anybody really yet seasoned, and has incredible I mean, Diplo is selling tens of This interview originally focused on is the period where market or not. knows the answer; but there’s a creative talents. They’re going to thousands of tickets in Pakistan! appeared on MBW in June 2018. 86 87 defining professional principles – and why a frontline major label Joie Manda: ‘Artists with longevity are has to show flexibility in its deals like athletes – they always want to see in the modern age... Hip-hop’s having a moment.

Where can it go from here? Jonathan Mannion Photo: how they can get better.’ That’s true – but in my mind hip- hop’s been having a moment for It’s a good time to be Joie Manda. 40 years! In the first half of 2018, the Urban music rules culture Interscope Geffen A&M EVP no matter what cycle we’re in. oversaw the release of a landmark When we were in the Mumford album by his friend, J. Cole – KOD & Sons cycle, yeah there were a – which shattered US streaming lot of people in Williamsburg, records on both Apple Music Shoreditch and Silver Lake that and Spotify. dressed like Mumford & Sons, but (Manda is deeply rooted in I don’t think they moved popular Team Cole: the superstar artist’s culture in the way that Jay-Z did manager, Ib Hamad, told MBW at the time. Maybe music was that Manda “believes in us and is never cyclical, you know? Maybe a great partner”.) the gatekeepers and radio just Other priority projects currently made it seem that way. on Manda’s books at IGA include Maybe we’re about to find out it , Playboi Carti, Sheck was always about rap. Wes, , , and , aka Jarad Your roster at IGA is dominated Higgins, whose recent smash hit by rap. Why and when did you Lucid Dreams now has over 190m get the hip-hop bug? streams on Spotify alone. I grew up in Brooklyn in the Brooklyn-raised Manda’s long- eighties – and back then, held expertise in the world of rap everyone got the hip-hop bug. Ella Mai couldn’t be more of the moment: It was the music coming out of according to Nielsen Music, From there, Manda became every car in my neighborhood Did you think at that time you’d feeling; and not just because you hip-hop (mixed in with R&B in Head of Urban Music for Warner and being played at every house have a career in music? lose some money. You have to the company’s stats) accounted “MAYBE MUSIC WAS Bros. Records – where he signed party. Yes. I think all of us are persist; you have to realize, maybe for no less than 37.5% of on- NEVER CYCLICAL, ’ It was , Run DMC, retrospectively conscious of it’s going to happen on the third demand audio streams in the (, ), Jill Scott, and Beastie Boys, Big Daddy Kane; stuff we weren’t conscious of Sunday, or the fourth Sunday. States in H1 2018. YOU KNOW? MAYBE Common, among others – before I didn’t know anyone that was at the time. There were a few [first week] Yet for Manda, such industry THE GATEKEEPERS he was snapped up as President listening to anything else. I wasn’t into video games – I parties where I was like, I’m dominance has been a long time of Def Jam. was just fixated on hip-hop. shutting this down, I’m not losing coming. JUST MADE IT SEEM Manda eventually joined Then you became a nightclub Whatever disposable income I any more money. But the reality The Los Angeles-based exec THAT WAY.” Interscope Geffen A&M in working in New had would go towards a record; is, you don’t always hit critical began his career as a night club 2013, and has since played an York City? whatever free time I had would mass in the first week; word has promoter in the nineties – fresh role in fashioning I started giving out flyers. I did go towards the club. to get around. from dropping out of high school standout joint venture label that of mine who That’s relevant in a lot of in eleventh grade. Manda began making industry partnerships – including J. Cole’s was a local promoter for teenage What was the biggest thing different areas of life. Especially From there he started working connections. Soon, word of his and Atlanta- parties in Brooklyn. you learned as a nightclub now, in the microwave-instant the door at influential NYC skills got out. based LVRN Records (the team Then he got a job in promoter? gratification era, when everyone hip-hop club Tunnel, where he In 2004, Lyor Cohen left Def who brought 6LACK to Interscope for a guy named Peter Gatien, It taught me patience. When wants success immediately. You observed the style of hip-hop Jam to run Warner Music Group; and are also behind the breakout who ran the biggest nightclubs you’re a nightclub promoter and look at artist development and it’s mogul at close Cohen hired Todd Moscowitz, success of D.R.A.M.). in Manhattan [Tunnel, Palladium, you start a party, you’re like, ‘Okay the same story. You have to have quarters. and Moscowitz hired Manda as Manda has also has his own Club USA and others], and we I’m going to run this party every patience. After being invited into the EVP of the newly-revived Asylum Interscope JV to take care of, too started throwing parties together. Sunday night.’ world of A&R by Funkmaster Records. There, Manda signed – Rule #1. Then I started going [to Tunnel] Let’s say the place holds 800 Did you have industry heroes Flex (not an offer any sane hip- , Lil Boosie, Paul Wall, MBW caught up with Manda on other nights when I wasn’t people and that first Sunday, 120 when you were breaking into the hop-head would turn down), and Bun B. to ask all about hip-hop’s rise, his working. people come. That’s a really shitty music business? 88 89 Yeah – Chris Lighty was a real We interviewed J Cole’s hanging out at each other’s industry hero of mine. He was the manager, Ib Hamid, and he houses. man; always with talent, always talked about you in glowing You read about Joni Mitchell in record labels. I would see his terms, but he didn’t always talk and David Geffen, or Jimmy

office in magazines and I was about the industry in glowing Iovine [with Dr Dre, Eminem etc.] Cian Moore Photo: always impressed. terms. Why are you seen as their – Jimmy’s probably the best at it,

Puffy was another industry hero guy, despite working for a big since Clive [Davis] and Geffen. Supreme Anthony Photo: if you were in New York in the corporation? Jimmy’s artists believe he can early 1990s – and Lyor [Cohen] When I first met Cole, we were make money and that he’s a was definitely an industry hero. both at SIR [Studios] – the winner, but he also has genuine All for different reasons. rehearsal space in Hollywood. friendships with them. I was there with an artist, and Did you have many dealings with it was right after Cole’s second Do you look up to Jimmy? Lyor once you joined Warner and album came out. For sure. I didn’t know him till a then at Def Jam? He was a big artist then, not lot later – I was in New York [at Yes. Todd hired me, so in turn I as big as now but he’d had two Warner/Def Jam] and he was in spent a lot of time with Lyor. No.1 albums. Whenever anyone LA [at Interscope] – so he was just conceptualizes, writes, and a legend to me. What lessons did you learn from produces their songs, I put those But Jimmy was here [at Lyor and what did you learn artists in a special category. Interscope] when I was hired by from Todd? I ran into the parking lot and [John] Janick, for my first year- From Todd I learned everything struck up a conversation with and-a-half. Then one day we woke about how the music business Cole – I was trying to get him to up and... Jimmy owned Apple works – I’m talking about the do a feature with one of my artists [laughs]. actual business. – and he was just super-cool. He was the head of Business We were texting, and I thought, What have you learned from Affairs at Def Jam, then General This guy could run a label – he can John? Everybody has their own style. When I worked for Todd, he had J Cole Sheck Wes interned for Lyor – Todd and Julie “I TELL ALL THE A&R GUYS HERE – THE DAY THE Greenwald came up together, ARTIST SIGNS AND WE POP THE CHAMPAGNE, and [they have] a very New York, Look, I’m from Brooklyn, and I’ll record companies and this artist There’s a reason we don’t wear Lyor, in-your-face approach. always be from Brooklyn. So even could have chosen us because blazers and wing-tipped shoes WE DIDN’T WIN ANYTHING THAT DAY. WE John is completely different. before I met Todd and Lyor that’s they like Santa Monica – it could here – we want artists to feel HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT.” He’s not from California, he’s from how I was. have been because of a million comfortable. Florida, but he’s got that LA way In that part of the world, if different things. about him that’s very relaxing for two guys don’t like each other, In my mind, you’re not There’s a lot of confidence in the artists and partners. It’s just as someone’s getting punched celebrating until you’ve had business today, especially in the Manager. So he knew how the produce and understands how effective if not more effective in in the face. And then they’ll be real success with that artist. Not hip-hop world, which relates to deals worked, how producers got hit records work, plus he has a lot some situations friends five minutes later. necessarily commercial success; the big deals you talk about. But paid, how publishing worked, of credibility. John’s not scared of a Maybe that’s somewhere in my making a great record is a win. has the number of deals you do clearances, putting it all together. We had lunch in New York at confrontation, because you can’t DNA. But now I choose to live in changed at all in recent times? He was an expert at the nuts and the Palm, and I said, You should be in his position and not do Los Angeles, my wife’s from here What sets Interscope apart, in Yes. When I worked with Todd bolts. have a record label, and he said what you’ve got to do. But his first and we raise our kids here. your mind, from its rival labels? we didn’t sign a lot of artists. And from Lyor, I learned a few he’d always wanted that. They reaction isn’t, ‘They did what?!’ It’s healthier for the soul, not to The people and the personalities John, when he had Fueled By things to do... and a few things had Dreamville but it wasn’t really He’s not reactive in that way, he get too hippy-dippy about it. the artists can connect with. Ramen, even at its biggest, I’d be that worked for him, but that clear at that point what they were knows his own mind and is very Obviously, deals are surprised if it was over 12 acts in wouldn’t work for me. doing with it. strategic. I appreciate John’s style The industry signing spree is fundamentally about money total on the roster. Lyor is kind of fearless, and isn’t We started spending a lot of and I continue to learn from it. getting really intense. When you and rights, and a lot is being said Now, we’re still signing quality scared that something he says time together – Cole, me and Ib. I’ve also learned a tremendous ‘win’ a competitive artist deal... about how expensive the deals but we’re able to invest in more might sound stupid to some Now it’s a friendship as much as a amount from Lucian over the past [Interrupts] When’s that?! I’m are [becoming] today in a seller’s artists because the industry is people. It’s a variance of ‘no filter’. business relationship. 6+ years I’ve been at UMG. He’s joking, but I tell all the A&R guys market. healthier. Lyor doesn’t care about the It’s funny, that used to happen one of the smartest people I’ve here – the day the artist signs, But if we’re all offering the Interscope is a big company. consequences of what he says, more in the record business, but ever met. and we pop the champagne, we same [contract]... artists want I can do zero signings in one and that can lead to big ideas. I don’t think a lot of artists spend didn’t win anything that day. to find people who understand month, and six deals in the next That fearlessness is actually one a lot of time with label heads and Are you more naturally of John’s We have to remember this: them creatively, and who have a month. It ebbs and flows, and of his greatest attributes. executives today – socializing, style or Lyor’s style? there are only eight [major] sense of humor. there’s no rhyme or reason to it. 90 91 was omnipresent. Now we’re watching the Migos do it, but in a “I DIDN’T RUN streaming world. AROUND IN It’s not one-size-fits-all. You have OVERALLS WHEN to put out nothing but quality. MUMFORD & SONS Who out there, label-wise, puts fear in your heart? WERE BIG. MAYBE There are definitely people you PEOPLE ARE DOING take more seriously than others. Atlantic is tough competitively; THE SAME WITH RAP.” they’ll spend on a deal and Julie is a real closer if she gets in a room with somebody. The excitement for the , Ethiopia is killing it at Motown. Cole, Drake, and Post Malone I think RCA is good – especially in albums felt real. And I still think the R&B space – is a you need to put out a body of real music person. work to get people to buy in. What are your best attributes as How much can an artist do on an executive and what have you their own without a label in forced yourself to work on? 2018? The second part is the longer They can build online awareness list! I play team-ball – I want my and buzz. Chance [The Rapper] A&R people, marketing staff and took it further than that; he and other parts of the company to Pat are very smart, incredible shine and grow. That only makes guys and tapped into resources me better and it improves the that not everyone can get. company culture. But theirs is not the typical story Stuff I need to work on is not of a new artist and new manager. trying to do everything myself, not micro-managing things, Do you feel the narrative of the delegating more. I still get into ‘major label deal’ is a bit flawed? the weeds on things too much. Because ‘the major label deal’ Interscope’s a real force now. can encompass many different We’re only getting stronger, and things these days? other labels should fear us. I Juice WRLD Nast ASAP Photo: I totally agree with that. The genuinely mean that – we’re just cliché of ‘don’t sign to a major’ hitting our stride. Except the week before I’m due doing the equivalent with rap meeting] they’re auditioning for Interscope, like most majors – and maybe I’m biased – I just The Jimmy dust has settled a to go on vacation – then there’s music today. you and you’re auditioning for now, has signed a lot of JV-type don’t see it anymore. bit, that was always going to be a always a few deals to get done... I say that tongue-in-cheek; them, like a first date. And the deals with major artists. Is that a There are certainly some artists shift. Jimmy’s DNA will always be everybody has to make a living. artist might say they want advice, sustainable model for company that should stay indie. But then a in this company, but John’s DNA You’re a decades-long ‘urban’ But, yeah, everyone’s a [hip-hop] and they want to hear what’s of this size? lot of majors are doing indie-style is in this company too now. music specialist. Are you expert right now. going right or wrong. And then Yes, and there are a few deals [artist distribution] deals too if The next few years will be finding that lots of people in some artists, after a hit or two, recently that we’ve walked away they make sense. amazing. Ask any other label; this business have become How do you get to a stage of start not really wanting to hear from. Things that are interesting they feel us in those [competitive] ‘urban music specialists’ in the trust with an artist that is so that anymore. creatively but which didn’t work In terms of how music is listened deals now. We’re getting the past few years? strong you can tell them when The good ones, though, they for us. to, is streaming a good thing or a deals we want to get and we’re Hell yes! Thank you for asking this; you think something isn’t right always want to hear it. You’ve got to be disciplined. bad thing? breaking more than our fair share now I don’t have to be an asshole with a project? The superstars with longevity There are some deals being Good thing. In rap music, before of artists. and be the one who says it. Depends on the artist. It’s super- are like athletes leaving the field signed out there that, if you go streaming, people put out I know where we’re headed in I talked about Mumford & Sons subjective and personal. Some – they shower, go home, come down that path, your [company] mixtapes and the labels hated it the next few years, and we’re only before; I didn’t put on overalls and don’t want to hear it – some say back the next day and look at the won’t be sustainable. – but the artists knew they had to getting stronger. run around with my banjo when they want to hear it, and then game tape. keep feeding the fanbase. that was the big thing, and I don’t want to hear it! They always want to see how What’s happening to the album became a superstar This interview originally think a few people are maybe When an artist comes in [for a they can be better. in this track-focused world? off putting music out. He appeared on MBW in July 2018. 92 93 on to form m-Theory – Seton’s team would vet any deals above Eliah Seton on indie artists, big money a certain monetary threshold, crunching the numbers for deals and the future of the music business then-Warner chief Edgar Bronfman Jr so that he could “I realized at a pretty young age That’s a vocation at which he’s assess their merits. that I was not going to feed now doing rather nicely: in 2017, “It was exactly the sort of job an myself as a vocalist. But making “THERE WERE NO says Seton, ADA grew its global MBA would get,” jokes Seton. “At harmony in a room for hours on JOBS ANYWHERE, LET business between 20% and 25%, that time, the world was upside end, the discipline of rehearsal – while the company’s international down [post-recession]; there to me, that was like an escape, a ALONE IN MUSIC – THE (ex-US and ex-UK) revenues have were no jobs anywhere, let alone meditative state.” INDUSTRY WAS tripled over the past two calendar in music, and the industry was The Harvard Krokodiloes are years. falling off a cliff.” billed as ‘one of the oldest a FALLING OFF A CLIFF.” ADA clients – including Beggars He adds: “My first mentor was capella groups in the United Group, Domino and Epitaph – Jeff Zients [Entrepreneur and States’. But to Eliah Seton – sold more than 5m albums in economic advisor to President President of Warner’s New York- the States in 2017, and attracted Obama], and he always had this based distribution/services hub over 10.5bn on-demand audio great line: ‘Run toward the fire.’ ADA – their significance goes way streams. “I knew that an industry which deeper than that. Seton has also won some was tanking, with no investment Seton started performing in landmark accounts since taking dollars, would create a dynamic the 12-man group when he was the hotseat at ADA in 2015, of transition which, in turn, could at college 15 years ago, touring including worldwide catalogue create future opportunities.” the world singing bass baritone distribution deals with 12 Tone, That certainly rung true for for vocal jazz of Big Picnic, Cherrytree, Platinum Seton, who quickly moved American standards. (He also Records, Knightvision and – through the ranks of Warner after met his husband, Jamie, who perhaps most notably – BMG, playing a key internal role in the was musical director of the which just scored a No.1 U.K. acquisition of the company by Krokodiloes; the pair have now album with and Access Industries in 2011. been married for four years.) a U.S. No.1 album with Jason Following Len Blavatnik’s $3bn In his senior year, Seton was Aldean. takeover, Seton became VP to the elected as the de facto General BMG CEO Hartwig Masuch, CEO at Warner – the then-newly- Manager of the group – laying an exec not known for instated Steve Cooper. the pathway for a career suffering fools gladly, is If Seton’s previous experience that has led him to top impressed represented an education in one of the most significant “Eliah and ADA have corporate finance, he was about companies in the modern played a big part in to get a diploma in diplomacy. Shea Diamond Chernova Ira Photo: industry. the success of BMG’s “Like everyone working at He explains: “It was recorded music Warner at that time, I Googled quickly learned that music is very and Bergen were part of the essentially running a business,” says Masuch. Steve Cooper and saw he was rich with creative talent – and very team which did two deals that, small business; we did a “He is a strong partner a super-successful turnaround rich with lawyers – but there are in hindsight, look like music six-continent world tour and a decent and specialist – not someone with very few people with a business industry masterclasses: the £487m for the three months of reliable friend to a background in the music background. acquisition of Parlophone in summer each year and BMG.” industry,” he says. “When I came to Warner I summer 2013, and the buyout of recorded two albums. It After graduating “I wondered if there was a job looked like a numbers guy Gold Typhoon, one of the biggest was a six-figure budget, college, Seton worked to do bridging the gap between working corporate, which was indie labels in China, in 2014. full-blown thing. for two years before that world and the music world, frustrating because I saw myself In both cases, Seton’s educated “I kind of became a returning to Harvard and that kind of became my role. as a creative; I took the job an business smarts served him well; producer, label CFO, Business School to get “It meant I got my business MBA could get, and knew I’d have Warner was essentially betting marketeer, booking his MBA. education from Steve Cooper, to be opportunistic to fulfill what the farm on the future growth of agent and whatever else He then landed his first and I got my I wanted to do next.” the international music business. all rolled into one. I didn’t role in the music business from people like Lyor Cohen.” In 2013, Seton was promoted Says Seton: “I remember all the know what I was doing, but in 2009, working in corporate Adds Seton: “Whenever I speak again to SVP of International [industry] criticism around the it taught me that I definitely development at Warner to students who want to work Strategy & Operations, working amount we paid for Parlophone, wanted to run a music Music Group. Here, working in the music business today, I under Stu Bergen. but from our side there was never company one day.” under Nat Pastor – who went encourage them to get an MBA. I During this period, Seton any doubt. 94 95 “As part of the deal we acquired Can’t Hold Us, and an incredibly iconic catalogue, . but what wasn’t really talked Last year, once about was that we also bought again turned to ADA to release 12 operating companies across his US No.2 album, Gemini. Europe with a range of incredible In partnership with Q Prime, local talent and some impressive ADA handled the release of executives who had relationships ’s Hard Wired... To Self- in the industry. That’s really the Destruct in late 2016, which has gift that keeps on giving. gone platinum in the States and “Len’s instinct to do [the multi-platinum in various regions Parlophone deal] was exactly around the world. right – the results are proving him “Stormzy is a perfect example to be, once again, a genius.” of what we want to provide in Seton has been ADA boss for that world,” says Seton of the UK’s just under three years. biggest rapper. In that time, the company “He was very independently- has enjoyed accelerated growth minded, not ready to do a more via its direct deals with artists traditional major deal, so he did and management companies, the deal with ADA in the UK including Noel Gallagher, Q Prime and the results have spoken for (Metallica) and Stormzy – who themselves. collected two BRIT Awards for his “The next logical step for him, debut LP, Gang Signs & Prayer, in and for Atlantic, was to work out February, and has now signed his a major deal. I’d love to replicate #Merky label to that a million times across the worldwide in a JV agreement. ADA business.” “When I joined ADA, we Seton is ultra-aware, however,

“I KNEW TECHNOLOGY UPSTARTS WOULD THREATEN US ON PRICE, WHICH MEANT WE WOULD HAVE TO HELP OUR PARTNERS AMPLIFY THEIR VOICE GLOBALLY.” recognized that artist and that traditional independent managers would control more labels need to be super-served by of the game over time, and that their distribution partners in 2018 we were positioned on behalf of – or they’ll just up and leave. their voice around the world.” sales outside the US or UK. Because has been given He’s highly demanding and Warner Music Group to be a real “I got a bit worried when This threat, says Seton, has “We’ve got 48 offices around the permission by UMG to distribute wants the best for his artists. growth engine in that regard,” I first started to understand driven ADA to double-down on world, and we’re in every market. its own digital catalogue, leaving “Are we sad to see his artists says Seton. “We have amazing the real dynamics of the ADA areas where it can add value We saw a great opportunity to the agreement as a physical-only go? Of course. But he was asking relationships with traditional business because distribution is over and above those pesky create a global solution, and that arrangement. for a deal which, for us as a labels that we’re incredibly proud in tremendous transition right “technology upstarts”. was a huge element in us getting Seton diplomatically points service provider, wouldn’t have of, but we knew that if we simply now,” admits Seton of ADA, which “We needed to become more the BMG deal.” out that ADA only ever enters represented the right balance focused on that it would mean is understood to charge a base international, which we’ve done,” Inevitably, just as ADA aims to into partnerships that it deems between working really hard for we were getting complacent, and distribution rate of 15% before says Seton. “I sat with all of our add a wealth of new label and reciprocally valuable. our partners and getting that wasn’t sufficient.” layering on other services. label partners [in 2015] and artist partners worldwide, not all “Let me be clear – I love our dues.” ADA struck one of the earliest “I knew there would be discovered that people either of its roster is a permanent fixture: Emmanuel [De Buretel, Because The fact that Because owns its direct-artist deals to have a truly technology upstarts that would had eight deals with different Paris-based Because Music exited boss], he is one of the very best,” digital distribution may mean global impact when it partnered threaten us on price, which people around the world, which ADA last year, following a long says Seton. that it is in line for a payment with Macklemore & meant we were really going to becomes a back office nightmare, relationship, to sign a deal with “So many of our partners are from Merlin when/if the indie to release The Heist album in have to give our partners the or they were doing one deal for Universal’s Caroline. people who have made us better, rights agency sells its shares in 2012, which contained hit singles service they needed to amplify the globe and never see enough As part of that agreement, and he’s certainly one of those. Spotify – and that’s certainly a 96 97 timely topic for ADA right now. WMG CEO Steve Cooper recently confirmed that the Concord has spent over $1bn on major would pay a portion of its Spotify proceeds to distributed acquisitions in the past 14 years. label partners, with the qualifier “if [such a payout is] included in their agreements with us.” Meet the exec sniffing out the deals. Seton’s team layers on services to complement The music business was forever The New York native is a calm, ADA’s distribution network, changed on June 2, 2017 when methodical, music fanatic whose including radio promotion, press Concord Music announced first music memory is hammering promotion, radio publicity, sync, that it had swooped for historic Journey’s ‘Escape’, before moving analytics and playlisting and European publisher in on to Dylan, and Pearl “anything that might be value- a deal valued at comfortably Jam – and who happens to love added to our partners”. north of $500m. a unique combination of both That last point, he says, mainly Since then, Concord has numbers, math and songs. (These revolved around technology, and bought a bunch of lucrative days, Salm’s tastes are more ensuring that ADA is investing to copyrights from Warner Music geared towards War On Drugs, remain on the bleeding edge. Group, in addition to acquiring The Helio Sequence, Damien To help achieve this movie soundtrack label Varèse Jurado, or .) progression, ADA is now treated Sarabande, the Tams-Witmark Having fallen for Pearl Jam internally at Warner as something Music Library, during his college years at Cornell, of an incubation center for new company Fania and 3,000 Salm (pictured) went on to study technologies, both in the service recordings from legendary jazz for his MBA at Atlanta’s Emory it provides digital services and in label, Savoy Music Group. University in the late ‘90s. the tools it offers its clients. Metallica And earlier this month, Concord There, he landed an interesting MBW has recently heard acquired renowned British indie moonlighting gig as a local music rumors of Warner and ADA using Asylum, under Kenny Weagly, and safety and security of a label Independiente, whose beat reporter for MTV’s website technology to expand into a DIY strikes singles-only deals with [national] major, but scaled for masters include the likes of Travis, – an experience, he says, which solution for unsigned artists. Is artists to test their mettle on independents.” Embrace and So Solid Crew. brought him closer to artists that true? streaming services. Judging by ADA’s growth over Prior to Imagem, Concord was “SEEING HOW THE than your average M&A/business “Warner wants to be an The first, Ugly Gods’ Water, the past couple of years, Seton is hardly an M&A slouch; its buyouts ARTIST’S MIND development exec might ever amazing home for labels and was a platinum hit in the US, crushing that mission statement from 2014-2017 included Fearless find themselves. artists at every stage of their and a hip-hop-leaning roster is – but no-one said that keeping it and Wind-up Records, in addition WORKS, TO THIS DAY, “Seeing how the artist’s mind development,” comments Seton. now branching out towards new up will be easy. to Vee-Jay Records, Musart, IS A KEY DRIVER ON works, to this day, is a key “Everyone, including Max horizons. To distinguish itself – both , Vanguard, driver on my philosophy on the [Lousada], Stu and Steve have “One of the things I’m most against the ‘upstarts’ and heavy- Sugar Hill, Americana/folk/ MY PHILOSOPHY ON business,” comments Salm. “The been very supportive of us excited about on Asylum is Shea duty competition like UMG’s specialist High Tone, Bandit THE BUSINESS.” artist’s mind works in very, very exploring what’s possible to keep Diamond, a new artist we recently Caroline and Sony’s The Orchard Records and Razor & Tie. different way than a lot of people us moving into the future.” signed who is a trans woman that – ADA must consistently balance And prior to Bicycle Music who sit at desks, or who do nine- Seton’s purview at Warner was incarcerated for ten years,” a thirst for game-changing new and Concord coming together to-five.” extends beyond ADA into other, says Seton. technology with the certainty that under the singular name At least $150m of that money, After a short stint working adjacent areas of business artist “She’s written her album with its long-term partners are getting Concord Music, The Bicycle Music suggest our calculations, has on Digital Rights Management development – including the Justin Tranter and her music is premium global treatment. Company completed over 100 been spent in the last 12 products at IBM, Salm became recently-launched US label duo of magnificent. The US is ready for a Says Seton: “We’re under no publishing and master recording months alone – with Concord’s a consultant who specialized Arts Music and Asylum. trans pop artist, and it’s going to illusions: we know that our labels catalog deals. acquisitive activity across in drafting business plans for Arts Music, run by Kevin Gore, be Shea Diamond. She’s going to can go across the street [and sign In fact, according to MBW’s publishing, masters, theatrical startups. works across genres on which be a household name.” with a rival] every two or three sources, inclusive of its buyout and new talent showing little sign One day, a company which was Warner’s frontline pop labels As for ADA itself, 2018 is a years. So we need to be really of Fantasy Inc in 2004 – and the of slowing down. trying to value music copyright aren’t focused, including classical, big year – the 25th anniversary of good at what we do. activity of now-subsidiary Bicycle You might expect the person royalty streams came his way. He Broadway, jazz and kids music. the company. “Our artist and label partners Music) – Concord has spent over hunting out and executing did a bang-up job, and word “Voice recognition will help ADA originally launched 1993; need to feel, f*ck, these guys are $1bn on mergers and acquisitions Concord’s string of mergers and got out. Soon, another music streaming truly scale and bring its founding President Andy Allen killing it for us every day.” in the past 14 years – with circa acquisitions to be something of a company – this time a “wonderful, more attention to genres which is quoted as saying the firm was 25 label/master recordings browbeating, Art Of The Deal type vibrant, independent music have perhaps been a little under- designed to “create a system This interview originally acquisitions secured since the – but that wouldn’t sufficiently publisher” – called on Salm to represented to date,” says Seton. with the same kind of visibility appeared on MBW in May 2018. late 2000s. describe Steve Salm. value their catalog. 98 99 which will exceed $400m in 2018. Below, we talk to Salm, Concord’s Chief Business Development Officer, about what’s come since – the major acquisitions, the sudden upturn in the industry’s recovery, and one of the most intense M&A markets in music’s history...

Tell the story of that $500m+ buyout of Imagem, which brought you publishing relationships with the likes of Pink Floyd, and ... From a business development perspective, I was extremely challenged [at that time] to figure out how I was going to recreate the glory days of the mid-2000s, where you could buy ten [hit] songwriter catalogs in a year, direct from songwriters. Through the 2010s, those deals had pretty much vanished; you Daft Punk were either going to buy a roll- Mark Ronson up, or you were going to pay in Salm won’t reveal the name intersect. I have to acquire assets Sound master and publishing a mid-teens multiple for a rare publishing music revenue? your competition drops off of this company today, but says: for my investors that both stand catalog, created by Art Laboe. singer/songwriter catalog. We don’t really know how the dramatically. “They’re still around, and the the test of time culturally and also “You have to give credit to Because of the extreme scarcity consumer’s going to behave on Whether it’s Imagem, or founder’s probably reading this drive attractive ROI’s. [Bicycle investors] Steve Smith, of publishing assets, we shifted the record side, even though my other deals right now, interview. I credit him with giving “When I started looking at the late Brett Hellerman, Jon and did a tremendous number of we’re seeing incredible growth we are constantly looking for me a chance, and it’s amazing master catalogs and where they Rotolo, Alex Thomson and other master catalog and label deals in with streaming. So [Imagem] opportunities which the pack is to see what his company has were being priced relative to people who were on our board, a three year span from 2014-2017. was a diversification play: we’ve not all running towards – though become.” publishing catalogs in the mid- who said, ‘You know, we are going Remember that in 2015/2016 the matched any potential risk in that doesn’t mean that we do not Salm was in the club. From to-late 2000s it became very long on music IP in general. Let’s economics of streaming were still what is a high-growth business get into auctions on occasion. there, in 2006, he was taken on apparent, very quickly, that there not be afraid of these master mysterious. on the master side with this influx by Wood Creek Capital to hunt was a disconnect. I don’t think recordings.’” So, simply stated, we then of publishing assets. Do you foresee a day that out and acquire copyrights in the the investment community really As the acquisitions kept racking looked to balance our portfolio [at Clearly we are in a scenario another nine-figure asset is sold music publishing space, before had any appetite for master up, in 2015, Bicycle Music was Concord] and wanted to acquire right now where the consumer in the music business over the Wood Creek married Salm’s recordings, and we made some merged with Concord, and a a substantial publishing catalog; has adopted streaming on such next year or two, or have those initiatives with Beverly Hills-based game-changing investments.” new-look music industry empire we want as many high quality a mass-scale that the concept of deals all been sewn up? publisher Bicycle Music – run by He adds: “Publishing was was born. masters catalogs as we can find, risk on the recorded side lessens There are nine-figure deals out Jake Wisely and owned by Steve always the most well-behaved Says Salm: “That deal gave but the reason why investors love every day. It’s really exciting to there. There are certainly high Smith – in 2006. child – it was easy to explain to us at Bicycle an opportunity to and understand publishing so have a front-row seat for that. eight-figure deals out there. I see As the financial crisis hit in institutional investors. take all our master recordings much is because it’s the rock and One interesting thing I noticed them with regularity. 2008, Salm and Wisely began to “But then these acquisition and optimize them through it’s the foundation. was if there’s a sub-$50m deal I think the interesting thing expand beyond publishing rights opportunities came up for us, the Concord system, and it gave So, the Imagem deal came out there, the marketplace is when you get into deals that are and into masters – an area not where people said, ‘If you want Concord the opportunity to take about and, like the Concord/ willing to take more risk and pay in that price range, you are at a getting any love from Wall Street this publishing catalog, you’ve got their publishing catalog and hand Bicycle deal, it matched up higher prices. But once you get completely different realm of at the time. to buy the masters.” it over to Bicycle. Both platforms two companies whose assets in the fantastic position, with M&A. With that many dollars at Says Salm: “The basis for Such was the case for two of came together to set the stage for complemented each other. the support of your investors, stake as well as organizational what I do is to assess where his favorite deals he’s completed: an epic growth story.” to go after deals that are in complexity to what you might global music culture, data TGH, which included The Nine That epic growth story now Were you concerned that master the high tens of millions or acquire, you’re forced to move and investment management Inch Nails catalog and Original sees Concord boasting a turnover revenue is less predictable than hundreds of millions of dollars, away from simple and traditional 100 101 NPS [Net Publisher Share] or NLS now. As long as your investors bluegrass. Those sorts of genres [Net Label Share] metrics and have a cost of capital that can are currently not very well served valuations. In those ranges, the weather the initial return of a “THE COMBINATION by the streaming platforms. acquisitions come with necessary mid-to-high teens multiple, OF BICYCLE, IMAGEM So, the question is, with the key personnel, added costs, and and that you’ve conducted catalog that we have, how do the stresses to your platform. responsible and accurate AND CONCORD HAS various technology offerings out Thus, the acquirer with the diligence, you might, in time, be GIVEN US A SUITE OF there help? ability to integrate across their looking back and saying, “Hey, it We need to make sure that we scaled platform is going to have turned out to be a 25% IRR. We OFFERINGS THAT understand exactly where our a very significant deal-making won the bet.” DIFFERENTIATE US consumers are so we can reach advantage over the acquirers Today’s multiple could become them to the best of our ability. who didn’t have a robust tomorrow’s gem. FROM OTHERS.” Some of that’s physical, and some infrastructure. So, you have two different of it is digital. We are doing big deals. And philosophies. Again, you have One of our divisions, Craft our philosophy many times is, people who are stuck in the past Sometimes that means you lose Recordings, focuses a lot of its we aren’t just buying or rolling saying, “Hey, this multiple is too a deal you loved. My competitors resources on extremely high-end up NPS. We are investing in much because I’m only getting are all people I respect. But re-issues, re-packages, specialty epic assets with the mission of a 6% return,” and then you have I would be lying if I said that box sets, physical product, vinyl, significantly growing their value. peers and competitors in the whenever I see an MBW headline all these sorts of things where we And in order to properly respect marketplace, who have investors which says [someone else] won go back to the artists themselves, that strategy we want the best that say, “We are about as bullish a deal, I don’t tacitly say, “Man, I and we have them work with and the brightest [staff] to come on the growth of music assets wish my company’s name was us to produce and create very along with that transaction where as you can be, so go scoop up on that story.” It’s the nature of high-end packages that sell in the appropriate. everything.” competition. hundreds of dollars. We’ll know the true trajectory In fact, I would describe this Can you elaborate on that? in two or three years when the industry as being in an extended What about the future for A lot of times with acquisitions, economics of streaming are well- state of hyper-competition for Concord itself? There’s always if you’re valuing them on Net tested. the sole fact that a perfect song noise about what if one of the Publisher Share, your assumption I have my own way of trying to and its recording are rare gems. majors bought you... is that you can just pick off dollar-average cost our portfolio Because of that, there has not I certainly appreciate that every those assets, drop them right with David Porter recording for Stax, so that we’re in the sweet spot, been a day in 12-plus years where single one of the investors that which Concord acquired with Fantasy in 2004 on top of your system and your but you also have to realize, each I went in and said, “I want that started with us in 2006 are still infrastructure, and it’s not going financial sponsor is looking for song you wrote that the entire with us now. In fact, it’s actually to cost you an extra penny. It’s before the publishing revenue It’s very easy for those who lose something different out of their world knows and loves, and gone beyond that, where a lot of literally the definition of a “roll-up did. We were fortunate enough to a deal, to point their finger and capital. One size doesn’t fit all as here’s what I’m going to pay you. people who at first didn’t want to strategy”. be on the forefront of that trend. laugh, and to say, “These guys are it relates to why each of us in the Take it or leave it.” You’d just get invest, now come banging on our But tethered to each of these Thankfully, in the past 12 months, crazy. Look how much they paid!” industry is willing to pay certain laughed out of the room. doors, wishing they could. songs, recordings or theatrical we’ve seen quite a decent A lot of times that’s said multiples. My competition comes After Imagem, the ammunition We have an investor base that productions we invest in, there amount of growth coming off because someone lost a deal. in the form of public companies, I have from my deal-making seat is so committed to this company; are people who helped create certain royalty stream types in the We’ve all been there and it’s institutional investors, wealthy is three-headed: it’s publishing. the message back from our those works of art along with publishing world that for years almost like a way we come to individuals and start-ups. Each It’s master recordings, including investors is, we’re absolutely in their industrial knowledge in before were at best flat, maybe terms with not having won that has its own cost of capital and new releases, and it’s Broadway love with this asset class and that history. If you do not want to growing with inflation, if you were deal we loved. investment horizons. and theatrical. the brand you’ve built – and we break that bond then you have to lucky. So that has to positively What the combination of want more. So I think the future assume it comes at extra cost. It’s impact your view of multiples. Have you seen any deals you When you look around and see Bicycle, Imagem, and Concord of Concord involves a lot more a very sensitive thing. I think it’s short-sighted to consider crazy in the recent Round Hill, , Kobalt has done, from a business acquisitions – and a lot more critique anyone who’s acquiring marketplace? Capital etc. fighting for these development perspective, is give sleepless nights for me! Some suggest that the multiples publishing assets now for what There actually would be very few assets, it must be a pain – but us a suite of offerings and human Strategically, financially, and in music publishing have you might deem to be outsized moments where I would criticize also quite exciting. resources that for the most part, philosophically, we’re having reached a point whereby multiples – meaning teens – my competitors for the prices It would be sort of tragic that if are vastly differentiated from a blast. We want people to people who once were very because if you were to take these they paid. We are in the unique the person tasked with acquiring competition. continually look at the headlines acquisitive are now extracting earnings out and say, “I’m going business of investing in rare works all of these musical gems and that you put out, and say, ‘Wow. themselves from chasing sizable, to get 5% consolidated annual of art. winning deals wasn’t competitive. Are you feeling bullish about the There goes Concord again…’ significant deals. What’s your growth rates out of this for the If they paid what was thought That’s just how I’m wired. But next few years? view on that? next five to ten years,” your 14, 15, to be too much three years ago, after all these years and well over Concord has a deep, deep catalog This interview originally appeared We all know that the economics 16, 17 multiple today might be a 9 they might make it up tomorrow, 150 deal-closings we have our in ‘grown-up’ music across jazz, on MBW in August 2018. It has on the masters side exploded or 10 a couple of years from now. next week, or three years from discipline and we stick to it. blues, classical, Americana and been edited for length. 102 103 James Fauntleroy II: ‘I just wanted a job, a car and a cell phone.’

It’s common for artists and When I got to High School I from 15-18 maybe. songwriters to talk of ‘chasing started singing and just listening their dreams’. to things that were out at the And what was the next big James Fauntleroy II, however, time. Then a friend of mine gave change for you? explains that his method has me a gospel tape, a , I was singing background for been to stay still and let his although I didn’t grow up going 1500 or Nothin’ [the hip-hop dreams – dream jobs, dream to church. band/collective/company that has collaborations and dream Vocally it was extremely worked – live and in the studio – rewards – come to him. complicated, but I had no idea with some of the biggest names It seems to be working. about that, because I didn’t in the game], which was my first Recently he was an integral part know anything about singing, gig. They asked me if I could write of the writing team behind Bruno or about gospel. I didn’t know it songs – I didn’t, but I lied and said Mars’ multi-Grammy winning 24K was difficult, so I just learned it yes, because I tend to think I can Magic album (with a credit on all at warp speed; I was like Dumbo, do anything. So they gave me a but two tracks). you know what I mean? beat CD, I wrote two songs and As well as having a hefty stake that’s how it started. in the overall Album of the Year triumph at the ceremony, And how had you become part Fauntleroy was also recognized “THEY ASKED ME IF I of 1500 or Nothin’? in 2018’s Best Song and Best Same story, really. I was singing R&B Song categories for his COULD WRITE SONGS. around church and stuff, they’d contribution to the LP’s biggest I DIDN’T, BUT I LIED heard me, and they asked me if selling single, That’s What I Like. AND SAID YES, I could sing background, which He had previously won Best I didn’t, but I just said, yes, of R&B Song in 2015 for Justin BECAUSE I TEND TO course. I was like Jim Carrey in Timberlake’s , THINK I CAN DO that movie [Yes Man, 2008]. from the 2013 album, The 20/20 They then needed the CD [that Experience, on which Fauntleroy ANYTHING.” they gave Fauntleroy to learn the co-wrote every track. song] back a couple of weeks Fauntleroy’s first really big break later, for a meeting. came as one of the main writers I brought it back to them but I on Rihanna’s Rated R [2009]. I was also asked to sing in a locked myself out of my car, it was Before that, he edged his way school assembly. I sang, like, one raining, so they told me to hop into the business by, basically, line, and afterwards all these in the car with them and come bluffing (or “lying”, as Fauntleroy girls came up to me: Oh my God, to the meeting. That meeting himself insists on calling it). you were really good… and that’s was with Teddy Riley and, to cut He explains: “The group I was when I started to think music a long story short, the third song singing background for [1500 might be a good idea. I wrote, after lying about being a Or Nothin’] asked if I could songwriter in the first place, was write songs; I lied and said yes – Was your initial ambition to be a with Teddy Riley, and that was because I tend to think I can do performer? another major jump start – from anything.” I wasn’t thinking about anything sitting in your living room to In the end, of course, that like that, to be honest. I just writing to Teddy Riley. wasn’t really , or a bluff, wanted a job, a car and a cell or even an exaggeration – it phone. None of this was ever on Were you just inherently was actually something of an my mind. confident you could do all these understatement... things that you said yes to? Did you join groups? It wasn’t really confidence, I was Yeah, I was in a few little groups, just kind of… not apathetic, but I When and how did you get first I was in a gospel group for a few just didn’t think it was a big deal! I get into music? years, so I had my time there, didn’t really care if I couldn’t do it. 104 105 And yet you found you could do it – you could pretty much do it all, in fact. Was that a surprise? “IT WAS KIND OF LIKE HARRY POTTER. HE’S It was a huge surprise! A pleasant LIVING UNDER THE FUCKING STAIRS, THEN: ‘OH surprise, but yeah. I was already interested in YEAH, YOUR WHOLE FAMILY ARE MAGICAL.’” songwriting, because my whole life, my mom was pointing out lyrics to me. There was one going to get any better. When you work with, I won’t say song she tried to make me pay In the end I figured 10% of ‘lesser’, but with artists who are particular attention to: All In Love something is more than 100% of newer to the game, sometimes Is Fair, by Stevie Wonder – he nothing, so I’ll sign this terrible there are limitations, but with uses a lot of literary phrases, he deal, and knowing my work ethic, Rihanna there was real freedom, breaks the fourth wall, it has an I can make something of it. and that’s important to everyone interesting narrative. It was a bad deal, but it was who is creative. That song made me realize also an opportunity. you could basically do whatever How did you come to work on you want. It’s funny, when I was What was your first hit? the record? growing up, I didn’t think anyone It was by Again, it was word of mouth, just in my family was musical, but with Chris Brown [2009], just like how they all happen. then when I became successful after she won American Idol. With Rated R, it was interesting, I found out that pretty much the record company usually a everyone in my family had some Did things change for you then big album for a couple of years, sort of musical career, or thing. in terms of you were networking but with this they worked it for Kind of like Harry Potter – you at a different level and getting in three [to] six months, before they know, like he’s living under the more rooms? moved on to the next one. fucking stairs and then one day The thing is, I don’t really do It did well for me, though, someone comes along and says, networking, it’s more about word because I wrote so much on it, ‘Oh yeah, your whole family are of mouth. and Rihanna having me do that magical people.’ I wouldn’t advise people gave me a boost and established not to network, because there me as someone who could write Of those early songs you wrote, can be benefits, you can build that many songs on a superstar’s which got cut? relationships. album. The one I wrote with Teddy Riley, But for me, if in one People like Rihanna and Justin this sort of thing. If you ask me to You mentioned Justin hear him come in and he actually Remember Me. spot, and make sure what you Timberlake, when they have me come in, you know what I do, so… Timberlake, tell us a bit about startled the hell out of me Before that, I didn’t know do is really good, people will come write on their songs, they They knew what they were working with him on The 20/20 [laughs]. He said, ‘That sounds you could get paid for writing hear about it and people will talk can work with anyone they want getting into [laughs]. It was such Experience... great’, and then he was, like, ‘for songs! When I found out there about it. And that’s exactly what to, so when they choose me, that an experience for me. I wrote it in Well, for Justin, who writes pretty the hook I think you should do was money involved, I got really I did: I kept working, working, helps create who I am in the London, in Metropolis. much all his songs alone, to have this’ – and that was the first time serious [laughs]. By the time working and people kept finding business, and their support is why me come work with him on I saw him go into his zone, he I signed my [first] deal I had out about it and kept getting in I exist. Did you have a good time? that album, not only was it an wrote an entire section of the already been studying publishing touch. That’s basically how my I did. I hate traveling and I hate amazing honor, but that really song in, I don’t know, maybe two law, co-publishing deals, all kinds whole career has gone. Rated R was something of a anywhere that’s not Los Angeles solidified me as a songwriter at a minutes! Over time, I realized that of shit, super hardcore before I departure for Rihanna when [laughs], but I loved London, high level. our tastes and our flow or working even walked in there. How important was your break it came out – less and and it was on that trip I met Rod Because in this industry, as soon is so similar that it actually made on Rated R by Rihanna, on which much more raw [Rihanna, post- Temperton, I went to his house. as you do something, a week later it easy for us to write songs And who did sign you first? you had a hand in around half Chris Brown assault, described nobody gives a fuck – and that together, and that’s quite a rare It was Universal, and it was an the songs? it as “therapeutic”]. Was that Wow, what was that like? goes for everything. occurrence. historically terrible publishing First of all, I love Rihanna, she’s something that was discussed It was amazing, man; he was I’d actually known Justin for deal. I had studied so much that I such an important supporter beforehand? Was there a ‘brief’, hilarious. He was sitting up, about six years before 20/20. Did you start writing together knew it was bad. of my career. She is also an as such? drinking gin, talking about how I’d been working with [Dutch before really hunkering down on I read it and said to my lawyer, incredible artist. Nah, she asked me to write on fine Rihanna was and telling me YouTube breakout artist] the 20/20 project? ‘This is bad, right?’ He was There are several artists I’ve that album and that’s how I write. stories about Michael Jackson. Esmee Denters [who signed to Yeah, for , basically trying to politely say, worked with that fit this category, The brief is – although this isn’t One of my favorite songs of Timberlake’s Tennman Records]. Winner for Jamie Foxx and a like, I don’t know who you think but she was one of the very first always true, sadly: you call people all time is Always and Forever We were writing a song, bunch of other songs that we you are, but you might as well people I worked with and felt real for certain things; this guy writes [released by Temperton’s first having fun, and Justin just kind wrote for other people before sign this deal, because you’re not freedom, musically. like this so we’re going to get group, Heatwave, in 1977] of appeared behind us, I didn’t 20/20 happened. 106 107 Give us an insight into those sessions, who does what and leads on the different aspects of the songs? Nah, that’s a ghetto secret, I can’t let the details out [laughs]!

Photo: Dfree/Shutterstock Photo: We were having a blast and those dudes are so hilarious. We were having a great time, but also working so hard, unbelievably hard – they’re two of the hardest working guys I know – and that was probably the most intense album process of my life, but also a lot of laughs.

Big question: what does it feel like to win a Grammy? It’s fucking awesome. That’s what it feels like [laughs].

What’s it like beforehand? Do you get tense? I don’t, no. I’m so blessed, and what I do is so important to me and so important to other people’s lives around me, but at the end of the day, it’s just Fauntleroy has worked on Rihanna projects such as Rated R and Anti fucking songs, you know what I mean? We’re not doing heart So how did you come to work When and how did your of the superstars started out surgery. win – the fact it beat two major possible to reach their levels, so closely on the 20/20 project relationship with Bruno start? as recording artists. Bruno has I had one Grammy before hip-hop records to best album? because of how the business is [with a credit on every track] Well it’s funny, I knew Justin for always performed, of course, but this, with Justin, and we worked Well, I worked on most of changing or whatever, but as long and how does the process work years before 20/20, but I knew when I met him, what he really our asses off on that, for several the other albums that were as careers like that exist… I’m so with Justin? Bruno even before that. I’ve was was a songwriter. He was months. nominated, and if I didn’t I know far from being at that level, in my I don’t know [how it came about]; known him forever. I actually just a singing/songwriting afro, This Bruno album, it was people who did, and, anyone mind, and also in reality, it means I’m just happy that he called me! met his writing partner Phil running around the studio, and worked on for maybe two years, out there can fact check me, there’s just so far to go. What people have to [Lawrence] before I was even a he’s gone on to become one of so for us, to work on that shit for but I’m pretty sure no-one There’s a never-ending flow of understand, and this varies writer. I then met Bruno because the biggest stars ever. so long, and so thoroughly, and worked on their album as long or goals, but I don’t want to live for amongst artists, but with Justin another guy he works with, Brody So when it came to 24K, it was for it to win every single Grammy hard as we did. goals, because achieving them is – and Bruno – they really write, Brown, is in 1500 Or Nothin’, so comfortable; we didn’t have to that it was nominated for… it was So, if there’s some relationship so fleeting, and as soon as you get they write a lot of songs, they we were all going to a studio that get to know each other because a testament to how much we put between what you put in and there, there’s 10 more in front of have a lot more involvement than Brody was working at, and Bruno we’d known each other forever. into this. what you get out, then they’d you. What I’m more excited about people realize. was working there as well; that He asked me to come and Everybody’s always mad already lost [laughs]. is the stuff between the goals, the With 20/20 there was a small was over a decade ago. work on a song, it was That’s about The Grammys, like they’re Listen, all the nominees were journey to get there, that’s the fun team of people and we’d go in There are a lot of awesome What I Like, and I don’t know if awarded by a committee, but great, but I think the controversy part to me. and write every day. We had a things about Bruno, as an artist I was supposed to stick around they’re not, it’s about getting takes place amongst people who And I tell you something else, blast – and at the same time I and a person, because he’s [laughs], but we carried on recognized by your peers, which is are ignorant about the voting if it’s not your favorite part, then learned a lot. an , but I know him as a writing, and carried on… awesome. And the majority of the process – and to be honest, it you’re going to have a pretty He’s got several lifetimes worth songwriter, because that’s what Bruno is the core of those songs members are not pop or urban doesn’t mean shit to me. miserable ride, living and working of success and when you get he was when I first knew him, and and Phil is also on all those songs writers; they’re country, classical, for something so fleeting. to be that close to someone that’s very different from every for a very specific reason, he is , Latin, every type of music With all the success so far, what I’m just trying to get better with that much wisdom and superstar out there right now. a huge, huge part of the reason in the world, so to win something are your unfulfilled ambitions? every day, improving my skills experience, you’re very lucky and There are a bunch of people those songs sound like that. I was, like that is a huge honor. Well, I know , and I know and myself. you can’t help but learn and grow. from different eras who started like I say, just happy to be there, Dianne Warren and I knew Rod Or you don’t realize the value and that way, like Smokey Robinson, I was learning a lot, I learned so What was your reaction to the Temperton, so I know just how This interview originally you’re fucking stupid! but in this generation, most much from those two guys. controversy surrounding 24K’s far… look, it might not even be appeared on MBW in April 2018. 108 109 redefined debauchery, and in pubs and clubs, but it definitely then-business manager, who ended up as pillars, if not of got in the blood. was a financial guru and who British society, then certainly of probably became my second British identity... What was your first move after mentor. University? So, because this file had been I joined legacy City law firm thrown at me, Mare and I went to What was the music that you Theodore Goddard, which had a a meeting at his office. He had first fell in love with? very strong music practice. And I just moved, I always remember Truthful answer? Julie Andrews, was very lucky to be assigned to a that, because they had just The Hills Are Alive, Sound of woman called Mare Stacey, who refurbished the whole building. Music. I just remember thinking, was, in a way, before her time. I was so nervous, I went into the That is brilliant, that’s what I want There were very, very few senior ladies’ loo and I somehow pulled to do in life. women partners in the City in the washroom basin off the wall. those days. It was just awful! From then on, did you always She was an amazing character: The damn thing came away. It aim for a career that had slightly eccentric, but quite wasn’t set or something; there something to do with music? brilliant. must have been a sign saying ‘Do Not really, to be honest. At the time, I was a geeky grammar school girl in Portsmouth and I suppose becoming a lawyer was “I USED TO PLAY THE GUITAR AND SING IN in a way an obvious choice. I LOCAL RESTAURANTS, TRYING FOR A JONI never liked blood, so I couldn’t be a doctor! MITCHELL/JUDY COLLINS KIND OF THING.”

When and how did you cross paths with music again? She was a tax lawyer, but in Not Touch’ but I was so nervous Before I went to [Clare College] those days it was all a bit and preoccupied I didn’t see it. It Cambridge, when I was doing nebulous, so it was what was was a very inauspicious start. A-levels, I used to play the guitar called ‘private client work’, and it Thankfully he was a very and sing in local restaurants, included anything that a high net forgiving man – and a true Joyce Smyth on how to manage The trying for a Joni Mitchell/Judy worth individual might have a visionary. I got on very well Collins kind of thing, because that problem with, be it matrimonial, with him. Rolling Stones: ‘If you start taking it for paid better than my other be it financial, she did a lot of summer job, which was working contract work, everything. What sort of things did you learn in the Co-op. Working for her was probably from him? granted, that’s doomsday.’ And then when I went to the biggest break I could have He was a great one for thinking Cambridge, I got involved with had and she did become a very ahead, being proactive, trying to Sometimes it’s good to find an include them [the band], it the 17/18 No Filter Tour saw the things like the Cambridge Folk big mentor of mine; I owe her an be innovative. He was angle. includes everyone. Stones play 28 shows, grossing a Club, the Cambridge Folk Festival, awful lot. demanding, mind you; you had to Sometimes it’s good to explore “We have the best in class in all total of $237.8 million. and running Clare College’s own be on your toes. the area uncharted, to ask the departments. Be it the record The combined age of Mick Folk Club, and through all this I How did you get from there into He got into the habit of ringing question unexpected. company, , the Jagger, , Charlie met a fantastic guy called Nick ’ orbit? every morning when he was on Other times, very rare times, the designers. It’s fabulous to be the Watts and Ronnie Wood, in case Barraclough, who went on to That was Mare. She threw a his way into work. He’d be in his only thing to do is start with: So, conductor, to be interfacing with you were wondering, is 297. have his own folk program on particular file at me and it car, and I’d be just off the Tube. what’s it like managing The all these different people, this For more crass questions along BBC Radio 2, and he had a group happened to be, I truly can’t So you had to be on your toes at Rolling Stones? great team; it’s terrific – and such the lines of our opener, and for a called Telephone Bill and the remember what it was specifically 08:30 sharp, give an update and Say, when you’re interviewing a privilege.” horribly missed opportunity to Smooth Operators. about, but it was something to do be ready to answer questions. Joyce Smyth, the manager of The In recent years, it’s been about make a gag about Their Satanic I was absolutely star-struck with with a Stone, or the Stones. And That was very good training, it Rolling Stones, for instance. managing a very busy band, and Majesties’ Holiday Request Forms them and then somehow I found she said, Get stuck into this and taught me discipline and it Thankfully, she is polite enough, a band enjoying huge success (you’ll know it when you see it), I was playing gigs on the same tell me what your view is. stretched my mind. to ignore the neon ‘REALLY?’ sign with a new record as well as read on. roster as them . flashing in her mind, and give a touring one of the greatest You’ll find out how a girl who However, I was there to study So The Stones were clients of the This is in the early ‘80s when the proper answer. catalogs in rock’n’roll. was turned on to music by a nun law, which is quite a demanding company? Stones had already been going “It is”, she says, “like being the Blue & Lonesome, released in running up a hill eventually found subject, and I’m afraid I was a bit They were, both corporately and 20-odd years and are a national conductor of a rather wonderful December 2016, went to No. 1 in herself in control of a band who of a dull girl, really, so I spent individually through, largely, institution. As an outsider at this orchestra. And that doesn’t just the UK and No. 4 in the US, whilst had sympathy for the devil, more time in the law library than Rupert Loewenstein, their point, what’s your view of them? 110 111 I had no preconceptions, in truth. The promoters always tease me. that, working out what we can do I suppose anything I did know Paul Gongaware at AEG to make the most of that. And about them was slightly informed “I STILL WAKE UP especially. I say to him, Sorry, are then there’s new formats and by my mum and dad round the EVERY MORNING AND you free to talk? He says, Joyce, new music, how do we keep that kitchen table, and they probably what do you mean am I free to fresh and alive. wouldn’t have bracketed them THINK, CRIKEY, I talk? You’re The Rolling Stones’ with Bing Crosby, put it that way. DON’T BELIEVE I’M manager! What was top of your To Do list That was all I knew. I don’t think I will ever be used when you took over? What were DOING THIS!” to it; it’s just a fantastic gig to the headline goals? When you did get to meet them have, isn’t it? If you did start Well, by 2010, the 50th at that time, what was the taking it for granted, that’s anniversary in 2012 was fast reality? were heading it in a different doomsday. You should always feel approaching. They hadn’t been Charming, true English gents, direction. They wanted to do that you’re only as good as your on stage for a while, and the big highly intelligent. On this one, I corporate work, this was a boom next deal. goal, in truth, was that they had think my mum and dad may have time for mergers and acquisitions. to be performing, we had to work been wrong. So they didn’t really want to focus What sort of input do the band towards playing live shows in that on individuals, even if it was themselves have on year. When you did meet them, and something like the Rolling Stones. management matters? Or is it I think it was Charlie who said it enter their world, what were you I thought, This is too good an almost like a machine that purrs would be a bit ridiculous not to to them? Part of their legal opportunity and I went with behind them whilst they’re front be doing a series of show for their team? Caroline Barkham, my fellow of house? 50th year, when they did it for Yes, that’s right. And, in those partner, Paul Edwards and Hugh It is true to say that the their 40th. days, a terribly junior part of their Bradshaw, and we formed the machinery operates in the That mean that I saw my legal team. firm. background, but they’re very immediate role as, Right, let’s I was there to take the notes, to Then, at the same time, involved. The machine comes to make this happen – and then run around the City of London because Rupert was getting a bit them, I take things to them for support that with other things. So perhaps unfairly, about him in the BMG for publishing? delivering stuff, and sometimes, older, I assumed the mantle of discussion and approval. we had an exhibition, we had a past. What I can honestly say now It is, you’re dead right, it’s pre-’71 literally, to carry Prince Rupert what’s called Supervisory Director And most importantly, perhaps book… And remember, at that is that everybody plays a part. Of versus post, that’s correct. Loewenstein’s bag. But that’s at the Stones’ business, the Dutch because of my legal background, point, people didn’t necessarily course [Mick’s] very interested in what you did as a junior lawyer. group of companies that owns all I try to bring to bear objective and think that another seven, eight, the business and he may be a And is acquiring the pre-’71 You certainly didn’t say, I think the rights. dispassionate advice, whilst trying more years were going to happen. little more interested than some catalogue from ABCKO this is beyond me because I’ve So that’s the journey I was on, to be fearless on their behalf It was sort of, Let’s concentrate on of the other band members, something you explore? been to Cambridge; you did what and, as Rupert began to step when it comes to negotiating these five great shows – and that whilst they may want to Something that’s permanently was required. If that’s making the back, I took on more of what he deals. was that. concentrate on other things. on the agenda? tea, make the tea – but always be was doing – not officially, just You also don’t want to be a ‘yes It was about making sure that But in 21st century Stones Land, Well, it would be lovely, wouldn’t listening and learning, soak it up. doing it. man’. You don’t want get into everybody was ready for that year it’s totally collaborative; they each it, to get those babies back. But that line of, Oh, that’s brilliant, if and those . Because, I play a huge part. It’s band it’s very complicated and How did things move on from In terms of being ‘The Rolling you actually think – or know! – wouldn’t say there was meetings, everything’s aired, probably I shouldn’t say more that position? How did the role Stones Manager’, when did that that it’s not a brilliant idea. You reluctance, but there was a little everything’s discussed and than that. Other than, yes, it evolve? become official? need to say, I don’t think that’s a bit of concern. They hadn’t been everybody is involved. would be lovely. Well, obviously, staying at Well, it’s funny, I kind of morphed great idea, end of. on stage for a while. So, let’s get Theodore Goddard, one becomes from one thing to the other, everything ready for that, let’s Most people would agree if it Does it make it problematic at more senior. Life moved on, Mare really. I was sitting alongside What’s the toughest thing about make sure those shows are the wasn’t for Mick the band would all, having that catalog in two retired, I became a partner, and in Rupert for a while, and then he managing The Rolling Stones? best they can be, because they all have fallen apart at some stage different places? 1990 I became Head of the finally stepped down in 2010. It In truth it’s probably what a lot of really wanted them to be special. – and that’s probably not I think, to be honest, because it’s Private Client Department of was a long apprenticeship, you other managers may say to you: something he should be been like that for so long, one is Theodore Goddard. could say. that we live in a very complicated Is Mick like a co-manager in criticized for... used to it. It’s sub-optimal, it’s not And then in ‘97, encouraged world now, with so many different some ways? There is this I think historically that’s ideal, but we live with it. And we hugely by Prince Rupert, I set up So, maybe a stupid question, platforms. And I think because of impression that he’s very hands- absolutely correct. know how to deal with it. my own law firm, Smyth but, because it happened so that, and because they [the on and he gets ‘accused’, even Barkham, which effectively organically and gradually, was Stones] have been going for so though that’s obviously a daft Can you clarify the ownership of Moving on to more recent comprised the private client there a day you woke up and long and doing so brilliantly for so word, of being the one who masters and copyrights? Is it as history, how pleasing, for the department of Theodore thought, Crikey, I’m the manager long, there’s just a lot of us! worries about the business and simple as pre-’71 they are owned band and for you, was the Goddard. We moved wholesale. of The Rolling Stones? It’s all the same issues that strategic side of things. and controlled by ABCKO and success, of Blue & Lonesome? And it wasn’t a case of being I still wake up every morning and anybody else would have, but I think everybody’s well aware, post-’71 they are owned and It was fantastic. Everybody was so pushed. It was largely because think, Crikey, I don’t believe I am they’re amplified. And you’re aren’t they, that that’s been, if you controlled by the band – licensed thrilled. And to end up with a the firm, by their own admission, doing this... looking at the past, protecting like, the charge that’s been put, to Universal for masters and Grammy for Best Blues Album 112 113 That echoes my current look to the future for our archive, last gig on No Filter, as we were So are you and they now in a rest experience and I honestly think because it is amazing having a on the plane, one of the period? Or is there no such that’s the case. 50-plus year archive, some of principals, who shall remain thing? It’s like being brothers or being which is unseen and unheard. nameless, said, Joyce, could I just Yes, this is a holiday, and I’d rather married, nothing’s perfect, But it’s also quite difficult, ask, is it okay to have August off? I not necessarily flag anything at nothing’s made in heaven. And because if you’re trying to deal think that says it all. the minute, only because plans you’ve got to have some tension with that on your own, the cost of And certainly This Could Be The are still being determined. The to make it as special as it is. digitization, the cost of just Last Time isn’t on any set list I’ve schedule is being prepared about But do they get on, do they making sure this thing doesn’t seen. We’re looking forwards not where we’re going to be over the work amazingly together – and do disintegrate, and actually having backwards the whole time. next 12 months, in terms of some they love each other? Absolutely. it properly cataloged, it’s a big job. studio work, maybe some live Historically we’ve tried to do On a related note: how do they plans or other projects that are Let’s talk about some of the that on our own, but having that do it? coming through the door. things you mentioned earlier to project under the Universal Immense stamina, incredible do with world getting more umbrella, while we still own it all, focus and a genuine passion to So it’s safe to say we’ll hear more complicated. What has the is just a huge boon, it really is. want be out there. It isn’t as if from the Stones over the next 12 impact of streaming been on the It doesn’t obligate us to bring they have to do it. months be that live, recorded or ultimate legacy band? out any particular content, I’ve They all want to be taking the whatever? Positive. Because all our research made sure we have full control on show to new places, to vary the Absolutely, yes. shows that we are getting a what we bring out, in show, to just do what they do much, much younger audience collaboration with Universal. It best. What’s the biggest lesson you’ve listening to the music because of just means we’ve got it housed learned since becoming The streaming. And we can also see and properly looked after. And for On the No Filter tour, which was Stones’ manager? that we are getting huge the future I think that’s incredibly an incredible success, how much The third parties you deal with are was the icing on the cake. numbers for the later tracks, by important. are you personally on the road sometimes a bit imbued with the When it was announced I rang which I mean post-’71. for? myth of The Stones. That’s them, I texted them, and they “IT DOESN’T MATTER Because if you don’t know You obviously worked closely On that one, I was on all of it. It something I don’t realize because were just over the moon. Why WHAT REVENUES much about the Stones, you with Universal boss Sir Lucian was important to be on the road you just get on with the job. And wouldn’t you be? might just think of those very Grainge and Universal UK chief because things were happening so sometimes you’ve got to break ARE GENERATED, IF early numbers. If people are David Joseph on the deal. every day that required input. But that myth down for people who Well, I guess one line of thought, [THE BAND] DIDN’T asked to just name one Stones Day-to-day, can you talk a bit yes, No Filter ‘17 and ‘18, I did all are coming on board, to make for a band like The Stones would track, I’m sure there’d be a large about those relationships? the shows. them feel comfortable. be, What’s one more award? To ENJOY IT, IT WOULD number saying Satisfaction. They’re both great! Lucian is, of hear that they were genuinely BE A FAILURE.” But it’s rather nice to think we course, based in L.A., but with I’m sure this answer would have And what would your advice be thrilled is actually quite heart- can get later tracks and later eras David, being in London, we have a varied across the decades, but to an up-and-coming manager? warming… out there. And they are being very good rapport and he’s what’s it like being on the road Always remember that however They were, really, genuinely listened to by a younger immensely supportive and will with The Stones? well you get on with an artist, excited. Ronnie was in Barcelona looking at some other genres. audience, which is terrific. listen to all sorts of ideas. Even if Well, we’ve got in a very good you’re not there to be their friend. doing something; Mick was... I’m They’re creative people. They’re in sometimes he might privately pattern now, which is to do a Stay a little bit detached and give not sure. I think everybody was in a little bit of a holiday period at You recently signed a wide- think it’s a bit of a barking mad show, to travel, to regroup and solid advice, and that goes back different places. the minute, but they hope to be ranging deal with Universal. Can idea, he’s always wholly have a rest day – although that’s to the lawyer thing, being The funny thing is I was out back in the studio soon, watch you tell us what that deal encouraging. partly for the insurers as much as objective and giving your advice there because I’d been invited to this space. entailed and why it was a good And he can have a laugh, which us. It’s immensely disciplined. dispassionately. the Grammys by Universal. And one for you? I think is quite important. He’s I like to go on the entourage Sometimes it’s tempting, isn’t it, never having been before, I You must be incredibly tired of We’ve worked with Universal for a amazing at what he does across bus. I think it’s important to lead you’re invited to things and you thought, Oh, that’s rather lovely to people asking you how the decade now and they’ve been the board and he certainly does a from the front. And you dare not think, Oh, that’s nice, but you be invited. Why not? I can do a bit relationship is between Mick doing a terrific job at keeping the great job for us, and we’re very be late on that entourage bus, or don’t want to make the mistake of business, etc. So I was quite and Keith. So, with that in mind, catalog fresh and alive, and we’ve grateful. Full credit must be given you’ll be slow hand-clapped on. of thinking that you’re a friend. relaxed. How’s the relationship between done new product with them as also to Orla Lee-Fisher and all of It was, genuinely, a very, very Even if they very kindly say that And then when it was Mick and Keith? well. The deal was up for renewal her team who work so tirelessly happy time. I think first and you are, and maybe you are, but announced, I cried; I was so I really don’t get asked it that and this new one is great because on every project. foremost, cliché though it may in your mind, even if it’s true, thrilled, I cried. often! What I’ll say is, if you look at now they own Eagle Rock and, of be, they do have to enjoy it always keep that distinction; that what the fans are saying, the fans course, Bravado, which means we Does anyone in the band ever for us to consider a tour a way you will do the job better. Will there be a follow-up album, that have been to see them on can have a home for the audio talk about calling it a day, or is success. Because it doesn’t matter in the same vein? the last tour, it’s generally this: We and the audio visual and the everyone locked in for life now? what revenues it’s generating, if This interview originally They are certainly hoping to watch them on stage, and the merch. Well, here’s a true story: on the they didn’t enjoy it, it would be appeared on MBW in create some new music, maybe chemistry has never been better. Also, key for me was to try and way back from Warsaw, from the a failure. August 2018. 114 115 Tom Windish: ‘I find acts that play to nobody... and I convince people to book them.’

Tom Windish’s main mantra in life seems to be: don’t take no for an answer. It’s not a bad rule for a talent agent who specializes in breaking artists whose appeal might not be immediately obvious, either through ultra-poppy hooks or off the chart social numbers. It’s certainly the right attitude for someone who has launched and steered the live trajectories of artists from Low to Lorde, Alt-J, , Diplo and beyond. And it’s a good hard-nosed contrast to Windish’s more genteel first introduction to music, sitting at the piano, his Alt-J mother making sure he practised his scales. of The Windish Agency, and now email, so I was just calling people and offered me a job. Away from the Do-Re-Mi, as as a senior executive at Paradigm – and going to a lot of shows. That was like winning the a high school student, Windish Talent Agency (which acquired The only bands that wanted to lottery; Billions was probably was listening to “things like U2, Windish’s company in 2015). work with me were bands that my favorite agency, they were R.E.M, Camper van Beethoven, In the mid-90s though, kicked no one else wanted to work with; booking Pavement, Jon Spencer The Feelies, a bunch of other to the curb by buttoned-down I was the lowest agent on the Blues Explosion, The Jesus Lizard, underground stuff”. WMA, Windish only had one of his totem poll. all sorts of bands. Then, at college, he got a slot on career building blocks in place; But I put my head down, I I went there and learned lots the campus radio station and, like he may not have been expanding worked really hard, and some of more about being an agent. They every other music obsessive since “I RAN THE AGENCY OUT OF MY SPARE horizons, developing artists and the bands went on to do some helped me sign some bands and time immemorial, began sharing BEDROOM. OUR WEBSITE WAS A LIST OF building careers just yet, but, as really good things. helped me fill in some of the his leftfield taste with, literally, ARTISTS AND A PHONE NUMBER.” he jokingly and fondly recalls, he One of the first bands I signed cities on the map where I just anyone who would listen. had a natural instinct from day was Low, and we still book them didn’t have relationships with The next step was putting on one for finding acts playing to today. My company was called promoters. shows for the radio station, and nobody. Bug Booking, because I was Another huge transformation then booking for the college Looking back, you can sense role in developing artists.” bugging the hell out of people to at that time was the rise of the itself. “I booked a lot of great stuff: some pride in the fact that he That remains the thing that book the bands. internet and the consumption Dinosaur Jr, , Cypress now probably agrees with the Windish loves (and considers When you rather of music on the internet. I was Hill, House of Pain, a long list. I verdict. “I don’t know, a relative of most important) about being an unceremoniously left William What were the next steps that booking all these bands that I did it for a couple of years. I was my boss was settled at my desk agent. “I still find acts that play to Morris, what was your move? took you up that totem pole? loved, and some other people dealing direct with agents, and on the day I left, so who knows nobody, but who make amazing Well, it had only been a month, A few years later I moved to loved, but it was really hard to that’s how I got the internship what happened there. music, music that I love, and I and it wasn’t a high paid , because I found a really hear about them. with William Morris.” “The biggest thing I learned is convince people to book them. internship or anything. I was living good deal on rent through some If I heard something from the That internship was to prove as that this is what I wanted to do. I From there, I help build their in New York and I started going friends of mine who owned a UK that I liked, I had to order it instructive as it was short-lived. In went in not really knowing what careers. I love doing that.” out and signing bands pretty great rock club called Lounge on CD and it would take like six three weeks, Windish discovered an agent was, and for three weeks He has been doing it for over much straight away. I didn’t really Ax. I moved out there, lived weeks to arrive. I was getting that he wanted to be an agent, I saw under the hood; I got it. It 20 years – first solo, then as part know what I was doing, but I above this rock club, and about that also came in the and was informed he “wasn’t involved booking, of course, but of The Billions Corporation, then figured it out along the way. This six months later the owner of mail. It was a very different way William Morris material”. it also involved a really important gaining real traction at the helm was before the internet, before [booking agency] Billions called to discover music. And when

116 117 there, working with labels like practical way. I plan tours before Warp Records and . albums are released, often before And then I decided to start “I DON’T GET albums are finished. Windish. I didn’t have an assistant INVOLVED IN THE That said, I’m very interested at Billions, and there were a few in it, especially as it relates to other things that made me think MUSIC-MAKING flexing ticket prices closer to the I could do this better if I had SIDE. BUT I DO FIND show dates when the music is out people helping me, so I went out there. on my own. MYSELF INVOLVED BEFORE A&R PEOPLE In terms of breaking an artist, What were those early days like? where does lie We had about 40 acts on day one: ARE INVOLVED.” between uploading music Hot , Kid Koala, godspeed digitally and getting on the road you! black emperor, Low, St. and winning one room at a time? Germain… overall sort of vibe that they want I really think that has to do with I was running the agency out to convey, then a good agent can the individual artist, how they of the spare bedroom of my do a lot to convey that vibe. create and how their fans relate apartment, I had one employee, I don’t want to undervalue to them. With some bands, I tell lots of empty boxes, the web an A&R person, and I think the them, If playing shows helps you page was just a list of the artists strength of the team depends in the creative process, then by all and a phone number. But it was on the strength of the individuals means go play shows. great, we grew very organically. and their passion for the artist. But there are plenty who I did not have a vision of You can have a bad agent too, haven’t figured out the music yet, building a huge agency, we just right? And a label A&R who is and playing shows would actually added people one at a time as crucial. get in the way of them writing the need arose. I don’t get involved in the great songs; it would stress them music-making side at all, I don’t out and take them off the path of You obviously had your start- comment on that really. But I do songwriting. up roster, but who were the find myself involved before A&R artists that signed specifically people are involved, usually a year What do you think of festivals to Windish once it was up and or two before they’re there. prioritizing ‘experience’ – and running? I’m happy when they do show ‘lifestyle’ and brands – over bills? Diplo was very early. I remember up, because it means there’s Festivals have needed to booking him when he got a another smart person, with distinguish themselves from other couple of hundred bucks a night experience, contributing ideas festivals. One of the ways they [as payment]. and forming another relationship have done so is by improving food to the artist. But most of the time, and alcohol offerings, sometimes Did you see a big live future for I’m there earlier and I’m trying to bring in art installations and add him at that point? get A&Rs interested. other non-music elements to the I definitely didn’t. At that time I line-ups. didn’t know what that would look What makes you commit to a At some festivals I have seen like. I had Sam Hunt working for new artist, and does data play the audience less interested in me and he ran with it, and years any role in that? discovering new music and more later it blew up. One of my ground rules is the interested in the largest acts same as it’s always been: I have of the bill and the non-music Lorde I guess that’s a story that speaks to love the artist. Plus I have to offerings. That’s concerning to me, about the changing role of the get a good feeling about working but I also see it as an opportunity Napster came along, all of a and telling their friends about it people are coming to see the agent in regard to A&R; how do with them. But it comes down to for other festivals to focus on sudden the bands I booked had a through the internet. bands I book and they’re making you see that role? a passion for the music; if I love it, music discovery. lot more fans. more money; it seems pretty I think an agent is really crucial to I’ll dig in and go to work. I remember one of the first At the same time, of course, the good to me. the development of an artist, and I really haven’t gotten much Tell us how you first heard about tours with , after Napster record companies are convinced can do a lot to develop, to market, into data at all. I look at it, but and started working with Lorde? had become established, more the sky is falling in… When did you decide it was time to help define who the artist is. more for the developed artists. I The way I hear about most of the people were buying tickets to see Yeah, I thought about that often. to again? It’s not always that way, but if an really don’t use it in any scientific artists I book is through talking them, even though they didn’t Everyone was saying how awful I must have been at Billions artist cares about what venue way. Agents have to plan so far in to friends, mostly in the business. have a new album, and that was the business had become, and I about seven years. I really got they’re playing at, what the ticket advance that the data isn’t really It’s not reading blogs, it’s through because people were hearing it was sitting there thinking, More into while I was price is, who else is on the bill, the there that can help us in a really talking to friends all over the 118 119 a lot more people to do more of signing artists and developing want to book the largest shows these things. That was going to be artists than I did in Windish of my career. I did that this year expensive and really hard to build days – and less time running the with Lorde and I want to continue from the ground up. operations of company, which is doing that with my clients. That was one thing, the other nice. was the desire for one worldwide What makes a great agent? agency. More and more artists Do you have a view on I think one thing is having grit. wanted to call one team, or one suffering on Not being afraid to roll up your person, to ask, ‘What’s the plan?’ festival bills? sleeves, not losing enthusiasm And then have that company go I don’t know, it feels to me that when you’re told no, to just keep execute it. younger generations aren’t going. I’m sure there are a lot One in 10 artists were saying, as into indie rock as previous of different ways to be a great ‘Sorry, we’re going to go with this generations. agent, but I’m used to being told other agency because they’re As someone who came up in no, from the early days, when going to book the whole thing a golden era of indie rock, that’s the only bands that would go for the world.’ And then, a few kind of concerning and freaks with me were the ones no one years later, it was two in 10 artists me out a little bit. But one thing else wanted, and the bands saying that. I found when I was over in the clubs didn’t really want to book. The business was becoming UK for [emerging / I still found ways. I found ways to more and more global. And I’m industry conference] The Great develop many of those artists. thinking, What if it becomes half Escape, was that there was a I still find acts that play to the artists saying that? I didn’t whole bunch of rock bands, and nobody, but who make amazing have a worldwide solution. I just couldn’t envision starting a UK office, it was too competitive “I STILL GET THE MOST EXCITEMENT FROM there, there were too many established players and it would FINDING AN ARTIST AND KIND OF ROLLING have been a losing battle. And THE BOULDER UP THE HILL; HELPING TO TURN Paradigm had this relationship with Coda [in the UK], and now THEM INTO A BIG ACT.” with X-Ray too. Coda were our The XX natural partners anyway; we were already sharing hundreds an underground scene that was music, music that I love, and world about what they’re hearing anticipation around that? Six months after we book the of artists, through no strategic quite exciting. I convince people to book and what they think is exciting. Definitely. It sort of became shows, there are a hundred more relationship, we both were just I think everything’s cyclical, and them and we help build their I was out one night at a obvious to everyone, a few opportunities for the open days passionate about the same kind it feels like the indie rock cycle careers. I love doing that and I’m showcase and met a friend who months after I found that song, and a lot of pressure to fill them. of music. is down, but I think it will come continuing to find a lot of success mentioned Lorde to me, told me that it was going to be big. That’s one time you need to hold There were 27 agents at back. Will it be as strong? Who with emerging artists. to check her out on SoundCloud. The first shows were at back, for the artist’s well being. Windish and I realized there were knows. All I can say is that I’m very I went home, the song was Echoplex in LA and LPR in New If you really have faith in the a lot of things we didn’t know. confident that great music will What would your advice be for a Royals, it was great, so I wrote to York, which are 5-600 capacity artist, you say no to a lot of stuff; And by tapping into Paradigm, continue to do well. young agent starting out today? her manager that night. venues. But they were sold out, we definitely did a lot of that with we would get access to all these It’s a full on job. It feels like I’ve One of the great things about these were hot tickets – and great Lorde. other agents who had been What are your remaining spent most of the waking hours that is that her manager shared shows. doing this for a really, really long ambitions? of the day for most of my adult an office with the manager of What made you partner with time. And we would benefit from I still get the most excitement out life doing it. [New Zealand indie electronic Did that put some pressure on Paradigm in 2015, rather than their experience and advice. of finding an artist when they’ve You really need to have a band] The Naked and Famous, Lorde – who would have been, continuing alone with the I also liked that they had played to next to nobody and passion for it, but if you do, go for and I was their agent. So when and still is, very young? Windish Agency? acquired agencies that were kind of rolling the boulder up the it. Set your head down, don’t take Lorde’s manager got my email, I think it’s different for every artist. I saw things coming – mainly like ours; they were grown by hill; helping to turn them into no for an answer, don’t look up he shouted across the room, ‘Hey, Lorde is strong and she knows artists wanting more and more entrepreneurs, brought in to a big, big act. That’s incredibly that much, and don’t compare do you know this Tom Windish she is. I think the role an agent services from an agency. I was Paradigm and the founders were fulfilling and not many people do yourselves to others, or to other guy?’ And The Naked and Famous plays is establishing benchmarks already providing tour marketing, happy with that experience. that anymore. people’s success; go after things manager said, ‘He’d be great, he’s with management and sticking I had someone doing brand I want to help make Paradigm that you love and work as hard as your guy.’ to . For instance, how partnership deals, I had one Is that how it played out for you? great and provide great services you can for them. many days off does she need? person helping with film and TV, Did you retain those same levels to artists, and continue to be You booked her first US shows; Choose the number and stick to and I was seeing a lot of success of control and entrepreneurship? part of a big team that thinks as This interview originally appeared was there a big sense of the schedule. from that. But I also knew I need For sure. I’m spending more time a group, not as individuals. I also on MBW in August 2018. 120 121 Photo: Nabor Godoy Photo:

Amy Dietz: ‘Being nimble and flexible is the only way to make money in today’s music industry.’

It was while growing up in while working at a local record INgrooves client Joe Bonamassa that INgrooves store having left school aged 18. EVP Amy Dietz got a taste for “I ALWAYS FELT THE Dietz then joined Jake Wisely – talking about getting new that’s where Dietz spent the next she left ADA and again moved the entrepreneurial and diverse DESIRE TO TAKE CARE now a top exec over at Concord managers or getting signed, 15 years – rising to Vice President across the US to take on a General nature of the independent music – to help launch his label Red going into pre-production, going of Label and Artist Development – Manager role at INgrooves in San business. OF OTHER PEOPLE’S Decibel, where she worked across to studios. during which time she relocated Francisco, where she oversaw In her home city, Dietz ART; HOW COULD I all aspects of the business. “I found myself [working] east to New York. the merger and helped move was exposed to a rich history “There was this scene that was around the pieces and After INgrooves bolstered its the newly combined company of independent labels and HELP THEM GET THEIR happening and a support system that became part of me operations with the acquisition forward. artists like Twin/Tone Records, MUSIC OUT?” for that,” she remembers. “A very understanding that there was of Fontana Distribution from That was over six years ago, Amphetamine Reptile and Red close of mine did a , and more to [the music]. I always felt Universal in 2012, shortly after during which time INgrooves House, plus Prince, Bob Dylan, you had people that were actually this desire to take care of other hitting No.1 with the debut has grown its marketshare to Soul Asylum, The Replacements being the labels, making records people’s art; there was a lot of album from Mac Miller (the first 2% in the US whilst turning over and Hüsker Dü. and Queen (who she saw play live and putting them out. people making music, how could independent debut to top the US $100m+ a year, and becoming a Her music taste, meanwhile, at the tender age of 12 for the first “I also had friends that were I help them get that out in the chart in 16 years), Dietz became leading player in utilizing data was formed by all-ages shows at time). in bands and friends that world?” interested in what the growing to grow revenue and inform rock venue First Avenue, while Inspired by a thriving DIY music were getting signed, some to Red Decibel was partly company had to offer. decisions. Dietz became a fan of metal scene, she got a crash course in independent labels, some to distributed by Twin/Tone which Inspired by its approach to Dietz added Executive Vice through AC/DC, the production cycle of an album major labels. There were people went through Warner’s ADA, and marrying technology and creative, President to her GM title in 2015 122 123 and is now based in Los Angeles. spend a lot of time regretting or Here we chat about her career thinking of things as mistakes, to date, lessons learned and “TO ME, GOOD but thinking about them more thoughts on the independent LEADERSHIP MEANS as an opportunity for something sector at large... else. BEING HONEST, Also, don’t be afraid to stretch. PROVIDING I’ve learned that I need to lean How did your diverse beginnings into whatever is scaring me set you up for what was to come GUIDANCE FOR or making me feel the most in your career? PEOPLE BUT ALSO uncomfortable, whether that’s I think the combination of the doing a panel or running the work at the record store and ALLOWING THEM TO numbers for a deal. the work within the record label DO THEIR JOB.” taught me to be open to the Talking of public speaking... do opportunities as they come up. you have any tips? I learned a lot about wanting I always get nervous. What I do to have my hands in everything record store, and there was a for myself is take a deep breath. and understand how everything buyer position that had opened There’s a reason why you were works, and not be myopic or up. I really thought about going asked to be on that panel, so own siloed. Something that has been for that position but was very that you have something to say. important to me throughout my politely discouraged, and told Self-doubt, your own inner critic, career, is that I don’t end up in how my role was going to change is the worst enemy. a place where I am not allowed when we got a new buyer as Speak slower and more clearly to collaborate. Necessity is the opposed to, ‘Yes you should really and listen to people — you don’t mother of invention, is that apply for this position.’ always have to compete for the the saying? I think that’s what There was a moment later that discussion. Also, spend some time happens in the independent I was like, ‘Wow, I don’t know practicing. Practice in the mirror, space: the necessity being you why I didn’t just raise my hand or ask a friend to go through don’t always have the resources and demand that they let me some of it with you. so you’re often working on a apply for this position.’ I realized (Dirty Hit) shoestring. afterwards that if I’d have gotten What are your strategies for Everyone is doing multiple jobs that position, it wouldn’t have put getting over negative self-talk you move through it. Challenging puts yourself out there too much, I think it’s important to create and I thrived in that situation. me in all of the other places to do and self doubt over the course of bosses make you understand but that is really self-limiting an environment where people I learned early on that I was all of the other things. your career? you’re not always going to have behavior. are unafraid to speak up, provide interested in understanding how The moment that I decided to First and foremost is being aware amazing rapport with somebody. If you really believe it to be true, solutions and ask questions. everything worked. move from Minneapolis to New of it, because I think one of the When I was very young I had it’s probably true in some sense. I have a very strong belief that At ADA, working in or York was a watershed moment. I things that I believe people don’t a job where I was coming home And if it’s not fully true, you will you can lead from any chair. overseeing multiple areas gave originally said no to that because realize is how often we are saying crying and my boyfriend at the learn something from it. Everyone’s a leader and I certainly me a sense of how it is to do I’d always envisioned myself on awful things to ourselves. time said, ‘You should quit’ but I don’t know everything. many of the jobs, so you have the West Coast. We can talk to ourselves in a was like, I don’t want to quit, this You’re in a leadership role at If you’re within an organization perspective and context when I didn’t know anyone in New way that is horrible, and in a way is a good job and I’m interested in INGrooves — how would you and you don’t understand why you move into a different role. York, with the exception of that we would never, ever talk it. There was a moment that I just define good leadership? the company is doing a certain That gave me some ability to start the ADA people, and it was to anyone else. As you’re having switched… Okay, this isn’t about The first thing that I think is thing or going in a certain to see around corners. a completely different office thoughts, don’t just take them this boss. This is about me and super important is listening. To direction, I’d encourage people to dynamic. There was a lot of in, be aware that they’re how I’m going to react to that understand and hear what is ask questions. Can you tell us about any running head first into brick walls happening and try to find ways boss. How am I going to manage going on is a really underrated mistakes that you made early on with culture shock and the move, to change them. my reactions to somebody that I skill and a way to lead people What changes have you in your career and the lessons but I learned so much about I don’t allow the spiral to go can’t manage? overall. witnessed in the independent that you learned from those? myself and gained a tremendous down the road. It’s like, Okay, Then, being your authentic self, sector across your career, and I don’t believe in looking at amount of confidence. that’s happening. Why is that What advice would you give to a showing up, putting the work what do you think of the state of anything as inherently good or Saying yes to things and being happening? Did somebody else 20 year old version of yourself? in and showing that you’re as it globally today? bad. There are experiences that open to the possibilities started make me feel this way? Because Find my voice, trust my instincts invested as everyone else. I’ve witnessed an overall rise in have helped me navigate how I with saying yes to New York and I that’s not mine, that’s theirs. and have less self doubt. When Being honest, providing independents for sure. want to be in the world and what have continued to do that. You cannot control how other you really believe something, guidance for people but also An independent was often I want to be doing. So the biggest lesson I’ve people act or what they do in the don’t be afraid to speak up. allowing them to do their job, seen as your first step and the An example of that is when learned is to be very open to world. The only thing that you can You don’t want to be the person and giving them an opportunity lower step — you couldn’t get I was an assistant buyer at the all the possibilities and don’t control is how you react and how that asks the ‘stupid question’ or to shine, succeed and fail. signed to a major and so you 124 125 went to an independent. Then, through a lack of access to infrastructure, radio and print media, you saw the rise of amazing labels creating their own communities in a grassroots way. Now there’s more of a level playing field. You still have access issues in that there’s only so many playlists that you can get on, but you’re not having to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to get your music out into the world and potentially find your audience. Independents now have access and choice, and can import and export music in a much easier fashion than ever before.

What are the biggest issues faced by the music business in 2018? What you did three months ago might not be what you’re doing three months from now. That’s a challenge and an opportunity Yellow Claw (Barong Family) for everyone so you have to be very nimble and make sure that challenge at the same time, but set in the ‘this is the only way to you’re paying attention to what’s the goal is still about the music do things’ mindset is the only way going on. and how you build an audience to make money. From left: Will, Dave, Guy, Jonny, Chris, Phil It’s really difficult to build an for the artist. There were some people audience because when you start that were very hesitant to go talking to a developing artist, their Part of your job at INGrooves into streaming, now many of revenue streams are stretched, is identifying new revenue them have figured out how that Dave Holmes & Phil Harvey: ‘There were you have to be careful how you’re streams. Where are the most becomes a revenue stream. There spending your marketing money, exciting emerging revenue might be opportunities for that to and playlisting isn’t a marketing streams and how can those be happen again. four people in the audience...’ strategy. capitalized? How do we help put all of the There’s emerging revenue in How about your future It’s quite common for a band’s fifth member. job for a band who have now pieces together to drive people the globalization of music ambitions and visions for the first manager to be a mate That band, of course, is sold around 75 million albums into listening to music and and opportunities to find new music business at large? ‘helping out’, someone who , and that mate/manager around the world and last year engaging with artists? audiences in new places. We have From where I sit right now, I want assumes the role almost by is Phil Harvey. completed the 122nd show of the Something that we’re really an office in southeast Asia and to be able to help solve these accident – and due to the lack of He still play-wrestles with the third biggest tour of all time – the focused on is providing tools for that’s very much an emerging challenges that we have within an alternative. word ‘manager’, even with the Head Full Of Dreams marathon, our labels that make it easier market. the industry. What’s less common is for ‘co’ prefix. Thankfully, though, grossing along the way $523m to digest data, and use it to There’s not a tonne of revenue Whatever I’m doing, I want to that mate to then steward that it’s not for fear of unlocking dark in ticket sales, behind only The make sure that where they’re there yet but you can see a level be part of the solution, and part band to world domination, memories, but in deference to Rolling Stones’ spending their marketing dollars of fan engagement and that of thinking about where we’re only to suffer something akin the man he calls “Coldplay’s real tour and U2’s 360 Degree tour. is getting the best return on there’s audiences to be built in going from here, and making to a breakdown, quit, move half manager” and “an actual grown In conversation, Harvey is investment, and helping build many of these places. sure that artists and songwriters way round the world, complete up”, Dave Holmes. ebullient and tangential where the artist’s career. We will continue to see things get to come along for the ride a degree (having originally Whatever the lines of Holmes is considered and to the We can use some data to do change as more players get into and are actually paid for what dropped out of Oxford University demarcation and exact wording point – complementing each that, but there’s so much data the music space. they are doing. to manage the band in the first on the business cards, the two other as they so obviously do in that just spewing it at everyone We don’t fully know what place), recover and re-join the of them, sometimes individually, their day jobs. isn’t enough. opportunities there are yet so This interview originally appeared band not only as co-manager, but but most often and most happily Between them, they tell the That’s an opportunity and a being nimble and not being too on MBW in September 2018. as creative director and unofficial together, have done an incredible behind the scenes story of the 126 127 but I just hit a brick wall. At that What was it about the band point I dropped out of Oxford and that debut record that because I was determined to “I FOUND MY DIARY connected with so many people make it work and not let the guys FROM THAT YEAR THE so quickly do you think? down. I literally woke up one Phil: Actually, it felt like a slow morning when I had an exam, OTHER DAY. I’D burn to us, because after we cycled into college and told WRITTEN: ‘I HAVE TO signed we put out another EP, my professor I was quitting to the Blue Room EP, which did manage a rock n roll band. STEP ASIDE NOW. absolutely nothing, wasn’t even But every call I made was, Yeah THE BAND NEED A a blip on the radar. And then the songs sound okay, but you’re we put out Shiver and that got not for us. I probably tried 20 A&R REAL MANAGER.’” some plays by Jo Whiley [Radio departments directly, and they all 1] and crept into the Top 40 at passed. I have sympathy for them number 35. We were really happy though because the band were a when things started happening with that, it was as much as we’d mess! To look at them, you would for us. [Wild is still part of Team hoped for. And then Chris wrote not think this is a band which is Coldplay as, amongst other Yellow, while we were making the going to go on and conquer the things, head of fan liaison.] first album. world [laughs]. The moment I got a call from I got quite down on myself You didn’t sign for Universal the record company saying because the band were though, of course, on records at Yellow was No.4 in the [UK] champing at the bit for a record least. midweeks, that was a genuine deal and I knew they were ready. Phil: No, but what happened shock, to body and soul. That was I found my diary from that year was, Debs introduced us to a paradigm shift; we went from just the other day actually. I’d Caroline Elleray at Universal Music being a band that was thrilled written: ‘I have to step aside now Publishing, or BMG as it was then, to be on the C-list at Radio 1 to to give the band a proper shot; and she signed us; she put us in having a song in the top 5, next to they need a real manager.’ touch with Gavin Maude, who has all the pop giants. been our lawyer ever since; and I kind of freaked out, I was Signing to Parlophone in 1999 What was it which ended up she got the CD to Simon Williams massively intimidated by it and turning things round for you – at the NME, which led to them wasn’t sure I was comfortable rise and rise of one of the biggest We were best friends and know what I’m doing, but there and them? putting us in as one of their tips operating at that level. I was bands in the world today... even then we dreamed of doing are two things we’re going to at Phil: I got a letter from [now for 1999. all too conscious of my lack something in music together. least try and do: let’s put our own defunct -based Simon also ran – and still runs of experience and lack of Thankfully I had enough self- single out and let’s put our own industry conference/showcase] – a label called Fierce Panda, and knowledge and I desperately Phil, you obviously go back a knowledge to know I wasn’t gig on”. In The City saying that Coldplay he was kind enough to put out didn’t want to let the band down. long way with the band – before going to be a performer, but I borrowed some money from were one of 50 unsigned bands our first proper single, Brothers Then the album came out a few they were a band, in fact. What Chris was prodigiously talented, my dad and a couple of friends. that had been selected to play. and Sisters. weeks later and went to number do you remember about first even at 13. I think it cost about £1,500 to That blew my mind, because The next show we played was a one, by which time Yellow’s meeting and getting to know After school, Chris went to make what became the Safety we had no buzz whatsoever, we Fierce Panda night at The Bull & doing well all around the world them? University College London and I EP. Then we booked Dingwalls certainly weren’t Muse or Elbow, Gate and it was rammed wall-to- and there comes this incredible Phil: Chris and I were friends went to Trinity College, Oxford. [in Camden, North London] who were also there that year. wall with the industry’s finest. We pressure to cram as much into at school from 13. We were in He met Jonny, Will and Guy in his ourselves and managed to get Of course in the end we played were up and running. the band’s schedule as possible. It a band together called The first year there and he shared a 350 people through the door, this tiny Cuban café, we were first was taking off everywhere and it Rockin’ Honkies, a soul/R&B flat with Jonny on Camden Road which meant I could pay the loan on and, honestly, there were four Who was in the race to sign you was a very chaotic time. covers band in the fashion of The where I could come and stay with back pretty much straight away. people in the audience. I was in the record industry and why For the first few months of Commitments, I guess. them. I was aware that they were That was around May 1998 and I devastated, but I left my contact did Parlophone win? the Parachutes craziness, it was Our time in the band never starting to write songs together thought, This is going to happen… card at the venue anyway. Phil: Gosh, I really couldn’t tell you just me in the management overlapped though. I was a and were talking about getting a and then it all went quiet. I felt like an epic failure. But the who was in the running. There office until I finally got myself an founding member but was band together. It was a rude awakening for me, next morning, I’ll never forget, I were a lot of offers. assistant – the wonderful Estelle soon found out as a guitarist with a realization that, actually, I didn’t was sleeping on the floor in Chris I remember we agonized Wilkinson. Luckily for me and the no talent, so I was substituted out How did you get involved? have any contacts in the music and Jonny’s flat and I got woken over whether or not to stay with band, she was phenomenal. In to become the sound engineer Phil: For the first couple of gigs industry and, although we had up by a call from Debs Wild, a Fierce Panda, that was definitely fact, she became so integral, that before Chris came in as the they didn’t have a manager – our own little thing going on, the scout at Universal Music, who said an option. But I think once when I quit, two years later, she keyboard player. Not they barely had a drum kit. So business didn’t have the faintest she’d been at the show and she Parlophone’s name came up, we stepped up to co-manage the the front man, the humble after a while I suggested I be the idea this was happening. thought we were amazing. could just instantly tell they were band alongside Dave for Rush keyboard player. manager. I said: “I can’t pretend I I sent everyone the Safety EP, That was the definitive moment the right people for us. and X&Y. 128 129 How did you cope? into management? me back, I was on the verge of Phil: I’m not sure I did cope very Dave: Phil and I were working starting my training with the NHS well. I definitely should have had together more and more and as a clinical psychologist. more support at an earlier stage. at some point he raised it with me, he said he’d love to have Was it difficult because they How do you feel looking back? someone on the ground in didn’t want you to leave? Phil: I don’t really know, it all America and of course I said I’d Presumably your argument happened so quickly; it was like love to – although I still worked was that it would be best for a spark hitting an oil spill. And at for a couple of years everyone if you left? then I did get support because, after that. Phil: I don’t think I said it was at Parlophone’s suggestion, we best for everyone actually, I think started working with Nettwerk How did the lines of demarcation I was being selfish, looking out for in North America where, by look in those early days? myself, my health was faltering great fortune, Dave Holmes was Phil: For Parachutes, I was the and I wasn’t particularly happy. It’s . Our relationship wasn’t a typical “TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I THINK I WAS one between a manager and a band, if there is such a thing. I STRUGGLING TO COPE. THE PRESSURE, was their friend; I’d been sleeping PRETTY MUCH FROM WHEN YELLOW TOOK on floors with them for four or five years. So it was traumatic and OFF, WAS JUST [OVERWHELMING].” even talking about it now I just feel immensely grateful that we managed to get back together. working, and he became, quite manager and Dave was the quickly, our trusted friend and North American manager, then Did they want you to stay? then our American manager. we became co-managers and Phil: They would have preferred then, when A Rush of Blood to me to stay, yes, that was made Dave, when and how did you the Head came out, that’s when I quite clear. I think to some extent first hear the name Coldplay? decided to leave. they felt abandoned and let Dave: It would have been 2000 down – and to some extent they when I first heard their music. I What happened in the build-up were right. flew over to meet them and we to Rush of Blood that made you just hit it off right away. take the decision to leave in the I guess the positives were that away it gets a bit wobbly, and have to worry about whether or Phil: Chris and I just started week it came out? Dave was on the scene to take that definitely happened, they not we’d get a Saturday Night naturally hanging out again once What was the nature of the Phil: To be honest, I think I was over completely and, most had some difficult experiences Live performance or whether I was back in North London. After original relationship? struggling to cope. The pressure, importantly, that you found a between 2003 and 2005. we would get on the Jonathan a couple of walks in the park, Dave: It was through Nettwerk, pretty much from when Yellow way back. So does everyone now Ross show; all the opportunities Chris said, C’mon Phil, we’ve got [which] had a joint venture with took off, was just… I was in a pretty look back on it as the right move? Dave, what are your memories of were there and it becomes about to get you back in the band, how Capitol Records and was part of bad way and, for whatever reason, Phil: Oh my God it was definitely Phil leaving? scheduling, which is an incredible shall we do it? And like I say, Dave the EMI family at that time. the relationship between Chris the right move. There’s no way Dave: I could tell it was a tough position to be in. was just fantastic about it. and I suffered as well. I’d be talking to you today if that decision for Phil, it really was. And It certainly makes your job a And Capitol/EMI weren’t terribly hadn’t happened. Alongside I understood and respected the lot easier when you don’t have to How would you define your new keen on them initially? Did you have to have a Estelle, Dave did an incredible, situation. say to your client, Mmm, sorry, we role, either in terms of a job title Dave: Correct, and once they conversation with the band to seamless job carrying things on can’t get you on that television or a job description? passed, the band then had tell them you were leaving? without me. How did you feel it affected your show. We were in a great position. Phil: Well the band encourage the decision to consider other Phil: [Laughs] Yeah, that was not A Rush of Blood To The Head role? Did you have to step up? I loved it, it was exciting. me to say that I’m the Creative independent labels connected to a good conversation. It was pretty was a huge success and then Dave: I did, but I also felt I was Director, which I fucking hate. EMI and they went with Nettwerk. dramatic, and not just because I X&Y, the follow-up, was also a ready. Looking back now, I can Did your relationship with the It makes me sound like I run a So Parachutes came out on was the manager but because I massive success. I think if you see I had a lot to learn, but band change in those times? ballet company or a marketing Nettwerk, but they got traction was Chris’ best friend and I was talk to the band, though, they’d then I still have a lot to learn; I Dave: Without question it did, agency. I don’t know... in the pretty quickly, especially on buggering off to the other side of say that period wasn’t their wake up every day wanting to yes. Our bond grew stronger, album liner notes they always list radio, and Capitol had a bigger the world. I went traveling across happiest, because, without over- learn. But yeah, I was ready, the absolutely. We’d kind of grown up me as a band member, which is machine to work that and they South America and ended up egging my importance, there is a momentum was there and we together and that was part of it. very sweet. were quite quickly upstreamed. going to university in . I fundamental balance in the force were in the fortunate position I am in the studio with them finally got my degree! So three when the six of us are together. that when it came to setting up How did the reconciliation and all day every day, but then I don’t How did the relationship evolve years later, when they invited If you take any one of us the next album [X&Y], we didn’t reintegration come about? play any instruments, so… yeah, it’s 130 131 What is your view on windowing etc. now? Dave: At this point we wouldn’t do any windowing or holding back. We did over the years because streaming was still in its infancy. We’ve moved with the times as streaming has grown with the times. Now that it has such a large market share, you have to go with that and treat it the way it deserves to be treated. In the early days we held off because Spotify 10 years ago isn’t what Spotify is today.

Would you hold it back from non-paying subscribers for a certain amount of time though? Dave: I don’t think so, no, not at this point.

What about exclusives? If one of the services came to you waving a big check... Dave: No, again, not at this stage, it would be available for everyone at the same time. hard to explain why or indeed if because our core team at several times. Where are you up How do you reflect on the recent What’s next in terms of Coldplay If there’s one thing that drove I’m of any use whatsoever! Parlophone remained constant. to now? tour? activity? me, it was my belief in that I think over the years I’ve So whatever was happening Dave: Oh, we still have a couple Phil: We loved it, we love being Dave: We’ll be taking a moment band, from day one to now. If learned to be useful: I’ve learned around them/us, corporately, it more [laughs]; we’ll be with them out on the road and we love to catch our breath. We won’t be you believe in an artist, you will how to design a live show; I’ve didn’t really affect us. The team a little while yet. We love working playing stadiums. Chris has got touring again until 2021 at the do anything for them, you’ll do learned to make videos; I’ve was pretty much the same across with them, they’re a great label. such boundless energy and is so earliest. We need to take a break whatever it takes. learned how to A&R. I just sort of every album, up until recently. Max [Lousada] has been an devoted to putting on a great and come back with something Phil: I agree, and also hold fill in the gaps. absolute pleasure to work with, show every night. You’ll never really special. on to the fact if your artist has And who are the key members and Miles, plus of course Julie hear a syllable of grumbling from that same belief in you, that’s How much of your role includes of that team? Greenwald and Craig Kallman in him, he’s so grateful to be able What have been your proudest qualification enough to take what most people would call Dave: Certainly in the early America, we’re really blessed. to do this and feels a great sense achievements? them to the highest heights. ‘management’? days, Tony Wadsworth, Keith We finally have a great group of of responsibility to give people a Dave: There have been so many At the beginning, you find out Phil: [Pause] Um, Dave is always Wozencroft, Mandy Plumb, Kevin people who have been in place joyful experience – Guy, Will and it’s hard to pick one. But, you that the music industry is filled the grown up in the room, he’s McCabe, Murray Chalmers, Kevin for a long time. We went through Jonny are the same. The mood know what, third biggest tour in with ever-changing jargon, and the real manager. I’m involved, Brown and Miles Leonard. And a lot of revolving door regimes so was consistently great throughout history? That’s amazing. I’m so to a certain extent, absolutely but if it’s proper grown up Mark DiDia at Capitol Records it to be somewhere the tour. happy for my guys about that. everyone is blowing hot air and management you want, you need was an early champion. there’s stability. Phil: It’s going to sound trite, winging it. to talk to Dave Holmes. Mark DiDia is the reason Dave: It was a lot to manage, but but it’s the simple fact that we’re There’s a simple reason for Dave: Phil’s really like an artist, Coldplay were made a priority Coldplay have been famous it was a great tour. There were better friends now than we were that: success in music is based he’s a very creative individual. I at Capitol Records in America, hold-outs from streaming in the times when we tested our crew’s 20 years ago. on feelings and passion, it’s see Phil as another member of without question. He single- past; what is the view now? patience, I’m sure, but they’re not necessarily a very cerebral Coldplay, I really do; I manage a handedly championed the band Dave: I think it’s a great thing in a the best crew in the world and Finally, what would your advice industry. Remember that, and five piece band. in that building and we owe him lot of ways; it’s where music was they always deliver for us. It feels be for young managers starting know that if your artist believes in a huge debt of gratitude. ultimately headed once it was great to be finished, but also sad out there today? you and you believe in them it’ll How did Parlophone’s digitized. Artists get paid every because we were all having such Dave: Believe in your artist and probably be okay. ownership changes affect you Presumably the deal with time someone plays their music; a great time. Mainly I’m so proud the rest should come naturally. and the band? Parlophone / Warner Music who would have thought that 20 of the band to have achieved I know that doesn’t sound very This interview originally appeared Dave: We just rolled with it, Group has been re-negotiated years ago? what they did. wise, but it’s so fundamental. on MBW in February 2018. 132 133 “Centtrip Music delivers what the music industry +44 (0)20 3735 1735 | [email protected] | CENTTRIPMUSIC.COM needs.” – TIM CLARK, CHAIRMAN, IE:MUSIC

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