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Interview Transcript Name of Interviewee: Palden Gyatso Name of Interviewer: Sarah Garratt, Wesley Clawson Name of Translator

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Interview Transcript Name of Interviewee: Palden Gyatso Name of Interviewer: Sarah Garratt, Wesley Clawson Name of Translator Interview Transcript Name of Interviewee: Palden Gyatso Name of Interviewer: Sarah Garratt, Wesley Clawson Name of Translator: Date of Interview: Place of Interview: [0:34] Q: Could you start by telling him that we are very honored to be here with him today, and very thankful that he’s speaking with us. In 1951, he met with His Holiness the Dalai Lama for the first time, and could he please describe that experience? [2:47] A: Just describing his feelings, he felt very blessed. Basically, it was because during 1951 it was very rare to get an audience of His Holiness, and now he got that opportunity to have an audience with His Holiness. And His Holiness was very young. He was not even twenty then. He remembers him performing a ceremony where (there’s something we called dorje, and it’s a tool used during the ceremony) it slid out of his hand. His Holiness was very nervous because he was very young. He remembers that, and all of them say that it was a good omen. So he feels very blessed that he got an audience at that point in time. [Translator pauses briefly.] And uh… sorry, I missed one part. This happened in Gyantse, and another reason he feels very blessed, in Tibet we say Chenrezig (Chenrezig is Avalokiteshvara) who we believe His Holiness is a reincarnation of, and that is why he feels very blessed. [3:54] Q: Three monks were chosen to go to Drepung Monastery, and he chose to follow them. And I was wondering if he could describe how it felt to see Drepung for the first time? [Brief pause as a phone rings, and the translator apologizes.] The TEXT Program | Transcripts | 517 Old Main | University of Arkansas | Fayetteville AR 72701 2 [5:52] A: Yes, he did follow three older monks to Drepung, and he was not allowed by his teacher to follow them, actually. So he followed them the next day, and when he reached Drepung, according to him, he felt the environment was very holy out there. It was very religious, and he felt the determination in his heart that he should be doing well, and should be completing his studies in the monastery, and come out as a good monk. He prayed that, and he entered Drepung Monastery after that. [6:20] Q: Could you describe your experience on March, 10 1959? [11:20] A: So at that time—it’s pretty long, so—at that time he remembers being in Drepung Loseling Monastery. He was in—so they have different, like in schools you have houses, they had different khamtsens. He was in the third khamtsen. He was studying his Buddhist scripts at that time, and he received a message that he had received some gifts in Lhasa. He had to go and collected the gift that he received from his home. So they went walking. He basically said the road was pretty good. You didn’t have vehicles but you could walk. He went walking and there was a stupa named Pongnee. And it was on the way to Norbulingka. When he was close to that stupa, he saw a group of people, or actually monks, that were going towards Norbulingka or towards Lhasa. And what they mentioned was that there was a problem going on in Lhasa at that point in time. And they were not pretty sure. What they said was they would get the audience of His Holiness, so he went along with them at that point. And what happened after that was when they went a little further, he met another person, he who said that there was a problem in Lhasa because His Holiness was invited to the Chinese camp for a celebration without any bodyguards. And all the Tibetans were suspecting that they were trying to execute him and assassinate him. And so everyone—basically what the people of Lhasa did at that point in time was block the motorway so that His Holiness could not go to the Chinese festival. So after that, His Holiness decided that he would stay back, and he was also in there at that point in time. What he mentions, one thing unique, was at that point Tibetans were not introduced to the idea of slogans. And the reason that he was there, it was not because it was organized. It was just out of chance that he was out there. And so how people were protesting at that point was everyone was saying different things. It was not a standard slogan that they use now days but different people using different words at the point of time. When he—later when he was imprisoned, this was one of the causes, or one of the reasons he was interrogated later. That he was a part of the 1959 uprising. [13:50] Q: He also mentioned in his book that some of the monks exchanged their robes for layman’s clothes and took up rifles. [To Gyatso.] Could you tell me what you think of this? [19:05] A: Historically, Tibet—before losing its independence, it had wars with the English, the Chinese earlier, and the Nepalese. During all these times we had a Tibetan army, but there was also a reserve army, which consisted of monks. So there was the Tibetan army, but we always had a history of monks getting involved in the warfare if there was a need. Coming to his 3 monastery, that is Drepung, which is one of the most prominent monasteries, he had—as I was explaining—they had different houses. 23 different houses. Out of them there were three which were really big. They were called Tsar, Kongpo, and Phokang. So these were the three biggest houses there, and he was in the Tsar house. And how it was explained to them at that point in time... They were told that we have a Tibetan army to resist the Chinese. We have Ghu-shi- gang-druk also, which is the rebel army—which was formed by… it’s like a militia. So we have that also, but the Chinese are too strong. There might come a time when the monks would need to get engaged. Because it had come to their—the particular term he used was it had come to their fate with Buddhism and the Dalai Lama. And if it comes to His Holiness and Buddhism, then they would come out and fight. And the age group that they were looking for is above 18 and below 60. At that point, what they were told was that they will not look upon any seniority, no Geshes, no students, no. Everyone [who] was above 18, below 60 have to get into the army. He was 28 when this happened. He joined because he felt that it was his duty to save the fate. [Gyatso speaks.] [23:30] Now, he also says that it is an irony that he’s a Buddhist monk, and that they had to join the—that uh, they had to take up arms. It is an irony, and a lot of people ask him that. What he always tells them is, according to him, that religion and reality are different but at the same time they are interdependent. What he says is religion without politics cannot survive. Neither can politics without religion. He gives an example of Tibet right now where the politics has forced that Buddhism cannot be followed in full faith there. But at the same time, in India, where it is a Democratic country he can follow his faith. So he said politics and Buddhism—sorry—politics and religion are inseparable. And he even gives an example of the United States that people have the freedom to follow a religion. It’s interdependent, basically, according to him. [24:34] Q: I’m going to back up a little bit. In 1953, monks from Kham and Amdo began to arrive. Could you describe how you felt when that was happening? Or what you were thinking? [Gyatso begins to answer the question but pauses to ask the translator to pull out a book, which he holds up for everyone to see.] [30:44] A: So what he says was in 1953, when there were people migrating to Lhasa from Kham and Amdo, it was not only monks but it was a lot of common people also. What happened was—that was a direct result of exploitation that was happening, or the warfare that was happening in Kham and Amdo—that people were moving into Lhasa. What he says was at that point, when they started, they started with giving a uh—it’s a big silver coin that was used at that point, which was given before—so they wanted to appease the people first—so they were giving that out. Initially they tried to create a power struggle between His Holiness the Dalai Lama and His Holiness the Panchen Lama. Because at that time, His Holiness the Panchen Lama was exiled into China. So the reason why he was showing this book is, he mentions it very clearly— Mao Zedong himself—he mentions it very clearly that—uh… the Panchen advantage he used to call it. Because if he brings Panchen Lama back it is was not for the good of the people, but it would create a power struggle within Tibet, which would help China to conquer Tibet more easily. So when that plan did not work out quite well, they started getting violent.
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