Interview Transcript

Name of Interviewee: Palden Gyatso

Name of Interviewer: Sarah Garratt, Wesley Clawson

Name of Translator:

Date of Interview:

Place of Interview:

[0:34] Q: Could you start by telling him that we are very honored to be here with him today, and very thankful that he’s speaking with us.

In 1951, he met with His Holiness the for the first time, and could he please describe that experience?

[2:47] A: Just describing his feelings, he felt very blessed. Basically, it was because during 1951 it was very rare to get an audience of His Holiness, and now he got that opportunity to have an audience with His Holiness. And His Holiness was very young. He was not even twenty then. He remembers him performing a ceremony where (there’s something we called dorje, and it’s a tool used during the ceremony) it slid out of his hand. His Holiness was very nervous because he was very young. He remembers that, and all of them say that it was a good omen. So he feels very blessed that he got an audience at that point in time.

[Translator pauses briefly.]

And uh… sorry, I missed one part. This happened in Gyantse, and another reason he feels very blessed, in we say Chenrezig (Chenrezig is Avalokiteshvara) who we believe His Holiness is a reincarnation of, and that is why he feels very blessed.

[3:54] Q: Three monks were chosen to go to , and he chose to follow them. And I was wondering if he could describe how it felt to see Drepung for the first time?

[Brief pause as a phone rings, and the translator apologizes.]

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[5:52] A: Yes, he did follow three older monks to Drepung, and he was not allowed by his teacher to follow them, actually. So he followed them the next day, and when he reached Drepung, according to him, he felt the environment was very holy out there. It was very religious, and he felt the determination in his heart that he should be doing well, and should be completing his studies in the monastery, and come out as a good monk. He prayed that, and he entered Drepung Monastery after that.

[6:20] Q: Could you describe your experience on March, 10 1959?

[11:20] A: So at that time—it’s pretty long, so—at that time he remembers being in Drepung Loseling Monastery. He was in—so they have different, like in schools you have houses, they had different khamtsens. He was in the third khamtsen. He was studying his Buddhist scripts at that time, and he received a message that he had received some gifts in . He had to go and collected the gift that he received from his home. So they went walking. He basically said the road was pretty good. You didn’t have vehicles but you could walk.

He went walking and there was a stupa named Pongnee. And it was on the way to . When he was close to that stupa, he saw a group of people, or actually monks, that were going towards Norbulingka or towards Lhasa. And what they mentioned was that there was a problem going on in Lhasa at that point in time. And they were not pretty sure. What they said was they would get the audience of His Holiness, so he went along with them at that point.

And what happened after that was when they went a little further, he met another person, he who said that there was a problem in Lhasa because His Holiness was invited to the Chinese camp for a celebration without any bodyguards. And all the Tibetans were suspecting that they were trying to execute him and assassinate him. And so everyone—basically what the people of Lhasa did at that point in time was block the motorway so that His Holiness could not go to the Chinese festival. So after that, His Holiness decided that he would stay back, and he was also in there at that point in time.

What he mentions, one thing unique, was at that point Tibetans were not introduced to the idea of slogans. And the reason that he was there, it was not because it was organized. It was just out of chance that he was out there. And so how people were protesting at that point was everyone was saying different things. It was not a standard slogan that they use now days but different people using different words at the point of time. When he—later when he was imprisoned, this was one of the causes, or one of the reasons he was interrogated later. That he was a part of the 1959 uprising.

[13:50] Q: He also mentioned in his book that some of the monks exchanged their robes for layman’s clothes and took up rifles. [To Gyatso.] Could you tell me what you think of this?

[19:05] A: Historically, Tibet—before losing its independence, it had wars with the English, the Chinese earlier, and the Nepalese. During all these times we had a , but there was also a reserve army, which consisted of monks. So there was the Tibetan army, but we always had a history of monks getting involved in the warfare if there was a need. Coming to his 3 monastery, that is Drepung, which is one of the most prominent monasteries, he had—as I was explaining—they had different houses. 23 different houses. Out of them there were three which were really big. They were called Tsar, Kongpo, and Phokang. So these were the three biggest houses there, and he was in the Tsar house. And how it was explained to them at that point in time... They were told that we have a Tibetan army to resist the Chinese. We have Ghu-shi- gang-druk also, which is the rebel army—which was formed by… it’s like a militia. So we have that also, but the Chinese are too strong. There might come a time when the monks would need to get engaged. Because it had come to their—the particular term he used was it had come to their fate with Buddhism and the Dalai Lama. And if it comes to His Holiness and Buddhism, then they would come out and fight. And the age group that they were looking for is above 18 and below 60. At that point, what they were told was that they will not look upon any seniority, no Geshes, no students, no. Everyone [who] was above 18, below 60 have to get into the army. He was 28 when this happened. He joined because he felt that it was his duty to save the fate.

[Gyatso speaks.]

[23:30] Now, he also says that it is an irony that he’s a Buddhist monk, and that they had to join the—that uh, they had to take up arms. It is an irony, and a lot of people ask him that. What he always tells them is, according to him, that religion and reality are different but at the same time they are interdependent. What he says is religion without politics cannot survive. Neither can politics without religion. He gives an example of Tibet right now where the politics has forced that Buddhism cannot be followed in full faith there. But at the same time, in , where it is a Democratic country he can follow his faith. So he said politics and Buddhism—sorry—politics and religion are inseparable. And he even gives an example of the United States that people have the freedom to follow a religion. It’s interdependent, basically, according to him.

[24:34] Q: I’m going to back up a little bit. In 1953, monks from Kham and Amdo began to arrive. Could you describe how you felt when that was happening? Or what you were thinking?

[Gyatso begins to answer the question but pauses to ask the translator to pull out a book, which he holds up for everyone to see.]

[30:44] A: So what he says was in 1953, when there were people migrating to Lhasa from Kham and Amdo, it was not only monks but it was a lot of common people also. What happened was—that was a direct result of exploitation that was happening, or the warfare that was happening in Kham and Amdo—that people were moving into Lhasa. What he says was at that point, when they started, they started with giving a uh—it’s a big silver coin that was used at that point, which was given before—so they wanted to appease the people first—so they were giving that out. Initially they tried to create a power struggle between His Holiness the Dalai Lama and His Holiness the Panchen Lama. Because at that time, His Holiness the Panchen Lama was exiled into . So the reason why he was showing this book is, he mentions it very clearly— Mao Zedong himself—he mentions it very clearly that—uh… the Panchen advantage he used to call it. Because if he brings Panchen Lama back it is was not for the good of the people, but it would create a power struggle within Tibet, which would help China to conquer Tibet more easily. So when that plan did not work out quite well, they started getting violent. And that’s when the people from Kham and Amdo started flooding into Lhasa.

[Dr. Sidney Burris asks for the title of the book.] 4

The title of the books is… [discussion in Tibetan] So this is an autobiography of Mao Zedong which was written by himself. This is the fifth part of it. [Gyatso begins talking.] He says it might also be translated into English, and he also says—I forgot—there was a pun that he mentioned again. He said the Chinese are very smart, so Americans should [laughter] beware now that you’re dealing with them.

[32:50 Palden and translator speak in Tibetan.]

So what he says—you can get a copy of this book in New York. It’s called Lhatse Publications, it’s a Tibetan publication out there. The reason why he referred to this book is because we cannot fight them violently, he says, but we can fight them with truth. And this is what Mao Zedong himself mentions in his own book, stating that he used Panchen Lama for the power struggle. So that is why he points this out.

[34:32 Gyatso speaks.]

There were four publications before he died, and this fifth one is after he died, they published this book. It’s a biography.

[34:50 Palden and translator speak in Tibetan.]

[35:14] Q: Can you describe how you felt when Samling brought the Chinese to the monastery and accused you all of betraying the unity of the motherland?

[There is some confusion over the name “Samling” during this part of the interview.]

[38:20] A: Now when the Chinese addressed them, they addressed the whole monastery to… Basically, when they were reeducating them. So Samling was basically a noble who only announced on behalf of the Chinese. When the Chinese came in, as you mentioned, they called him separatists, called all the monks separatists. What he says was he had to apologize out of compulsion. Now, he didn’t have a choice but in his heart at that point he used to think: well, we’ll see them one day because right now the time is not right, but we’ll see them one day. And that there should be something about the word “laws”. For example, the UNO—he didn’t have the concept of the UNO. He believed that the world should be working on certain laws, which they could appeal to. And that His Holiness was already in India. And that there would be a time they would be able to get back to the Chinese. So that is what his mentality was at that point in time.

[39:36] Q: I have one more question before I let Wesley take over. His teacher, Rigzin Tenpa, he saw get into a jeep, and then he said he never saw him again. And [to Gyatso] we were wondering if you know what happened to your teacher.

[44:29] A: So when his teacher, or his guru, was arrested—at that point his teacher told him that he was actually an Indian from Kunnur religion who was studying religion in Tibet, in Drepung Monastery. The Chinese arrested him, they took him, and as soon as he was arrested, Geshe Palden Gyatso-la himself went back to his room. That is when he was also arrested. Later what happened was His Holiness’s sister—that is Jetsun Pema-la—so she had come to Tibet. He 5 had heard about it, and he wrote a letter to His Holiness. Somehow he made arrangements to get the letter smuggled out of the prison and be handed over to Jetsun Pema-la. In that letter he had mentioned that he was a student of Rigzin Tenpa-la, but at that point he thought that he probably might have passed away. And when he came back… Sorry. When the letter reached here, Rigzin Tenpa-la was actually here in the monastery with His Holiness. When His Holiness inquired, he accepted that yeah, he had a student named Palden Gyatso. That is when he was mentioning this picture. He sent this picture back to him, and it was again smuggled back to him in the prison.

[There is a pause as Wesley takes Sarah’s place as the interviewer.]

[46:24] Q: The summer of 1960 is when he was first arrested and taken to Norbukhungtse, which was a couple hours walk from Panam where he was at the time. What concerns, what thoughts went through his mind while he was walking that distance?

[48:10] A: How he felt when he was heading towards the prison in Norbukhungtse is basically, His Holiness… In his mind he was thinking His Holiness was already in India and is already working to get an independent Tibet. And he felt that it’s only a temporary situation, that soon he would be out of the prison, and he would be back to a . And he also mentions that since it was during the early times, it was in the 1960’s, Chinese were—when they imprisoned, the interrogation tactics where not so brutal at that point in time. It became brutal as time passed, but when he was initially taken to prison it was not that brutal. The thought in his mind was it’s a temporary situation, and he’s going to get back.

[49:00] Q: Throughout your imprisonment, at various prisons you were subjugated to many things. Could you describe an average study session, an average thamzing, and the difference between the two?

[The translator asks for clarification.]

[51:34] A: First, he starts with the basic difference between the two. So the reeducation sessions that they had was more about denouncing common tongue, about socialism, about equality among people. Basically about the Chinese history, the socialist version of the history. It was not that violent, but thamzing was interrogation basically. Why did you did this? Who were the co-conspirators? And trying to get the details out. And in terms of sheer volume, there used to be more thamzing sessions, and that the reason was—now they would try to reeducate them about socialism, but their mind would not change. The only result that they had was the thamzing sessions, and there were a lot more comparatively.

[52:40] Q: Could you ask him how often thamzing happened? As well as, were they much more brutal than the—you know… Was brutality common or was it only ever occasionally when they became violent?

[1:00:25] A: The thamzing—now it happened—according to him there was no particular pattern, but it was very, very frequent. So what happened at that point, they had propaganda. Like for a 6 day, they would have propaganda which would say denounce the Dalai Lama or denounce the Panchen Lama or denounce religion or denounce the old thinking way. During the leap forward, the Chinese, as a philosophy, used to denounce the old ways. He also mentions, even while he was sitting, like for example he’s sitting right now—so if he had his hand like this they would tell him that this was a formation of some meditation for a certain deity. You’ll get thamzing, you’ll be put in, and you’ll be punished. For example if he was sitting with both his hands folded, then it would be for some other deity. If you’re sitting on the chair, it’s meditating for some other deity. And again he’d be put in for thamzing. So it was very, very frequent, and he would say it would—especially during the leap forward, the Great Leap Forward. 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, he would hear people get tortured. That’s why he was mentioning that sound. There would always be people screaming out of pain, always getting tortured, and most of the times it was violent.

And he was also telling us a story about a prisoner who denounced the Dalai Lama, denounced the religion, denounced Panchen Lama, and that he was brought in front of all the rest of the prisoners and made to say things they should also be denouncing the same. But the irony was after a couple of years the same guy was executed.

[1:02:07] Q: Why was he executed?

[1:04:28] A: What he says is he’s not really sure but the rumor says—so basically they were in different sections of the prison—and the rumor says that this guy spoke a lot of nonsense. So he was the star of the Chinese eyes, so he was their star. There was a rumor that there was a point in time when he did not agree with the Chinese official, in the sense that he came out and told other prisoners that he doesn’t know much, and the officer didn’t know much, and that I know better than him. He gave that kind of statement. There was an incident where he was right and the official was wrong. He came out and said that to the other prisoners, and the other prisoners were obviously not too happy about this guy. Rumor is that these prisoners, they went down to the officer, and they complained about him. And this is how things got serious because the officers thought that he was two timing him in the sense that he was on both the sides.

[1:05:27 In the background, Geshe Thupten Dorjee adds that Palden also said he believed it was an instant of karmic results.]

[1:05:40] Q: You spent a lot of your time at Drapchi Prison. Could he describe a day there from when he woke up to when he got to sleep? Could he sum up one day, a typical day?

[1:17:20] A: He starts with his early prison days in 1959. During those times, it was not so bad according to him. There were not many restrictions. There was basically no light, and they didn’t even lock the prison. Basically, there were guards standing outside. They would often be sent to collect wood from the nearby hills and forests. They would be pretty far and how they would be taken is like probably a group of five hundred, preceded by the Chinese army and followed by the Chinese army. He also recollected a small incident at that point in time. They were crossing a nunnery to collect the woods, and there was some nuns over there who brought them a lot of tsampa—basically our staple food—and fed them. They requested the Chinese to have them fed with the tsampa. So he has really good memory of that.

7

But then later, during the Great Leap Forward, and also—sorry—during 1959 they were doing agriculture and some labor work. But during… It was worse during the Great Leap Forward time when he was in Drapchi. So there would be a group of 15 to 16 prisoners in one prison cell. The first thing they have to do in the morning is to dispose their—the bucket in which they excrete. And uh—yeah, that they have to dispose. After that, they have to form a line, exercise, and then hail, basically, hail Mao Zedong and sing some patriotic song in Chinese. And they always made him, made them, carry a book that was written by—that consisted of the philosophy of Mao Zedong that had to be hung here at all times. At any time they could be asked questions from that book. Basically, the morning exercise was followed by a black tea and a little bit of tsampa. Then, they were sent off to work. Basically, laborious work like breaking stones and laying brick or carpenters.

After work, now, they would come back. And immediately after work the thamzing sessions would start. What he recollects is there was a person whose nickname in—if I translate to English would be apricot flower. That’s because he had a huge mole out here. Basically, this guy, he was a stone breaker. Now, he went through the thamzing sessions regularly after work, and it was such a helpless situation because there was no way you could get any help. You know out there that thamzing sessions are waiting for you. And he was so depressed that when they were lining outside the prison to get in, he threw himself in front of a vehicle that was passing by and was instantly killed.

Also, while they worked during the day, if the Chinese officials, or basically the prison officials who watched them, were not happy with their work—he gives an instance—they were punished. For example, there was a stonebreaker, and probably the prison official was not happy with his work. They made him lie down on stones, and then put a stone boulder on his back and let him lie there like that. So they would be punished if the work was not good.

And once they came back—so after the thamzing sessions… Once they came back there was thamzing sessions, then there was a dinner of basically, water-boiled vegetables and a little bit of tsampa. Then, thamzing sessions again after that. And then the day starts again next morning.

[Wesley begins to ask next question, and the translator remembers to add something.]

Sorry. He also said it was really painful for him to recollect all these memories, and that’s why he didn’t want to go into a lot of details. But it was important so he mentioned what he mentioned.

[Dr. Burris and Wesley talk in background.]

[01:21:39] Q: First, tell him thank you for recollecting those memories. I appreciate him saying that even though it’s hard. Two men, Jampa Choephel and Pema Dhonden, both received death sentences on the same day. Jampa was a peasant, and Pema was an abbot of a monastery. And they both reacted very, very differently to their death sentences. How does he account for those different reactions?

[1:30:50] A: This is a small—it’s a little away from the topic—so he was saying, since you were changing the memory card, he was saying that this book is the same autobiography. He’s 8 published this in Chinese so that he could reach Chinese people. [laughter in background] This is the exact book he’s translated. It’s already out to different places in Hong Kong and Taiwan. [In background, Dr. Burris: Really?] There are some Chinese ex-pats who come here and they’re taking this book them. This is… [laughter]

So coming to the question, yes… [pauses to look at notes] So Pema Dhonden, he was the peasant, actually. Pema Dhonden. [Wesley: Oh, okay.] Pema Dhonden was the peasant. He was actually a noble’s, in modern terms it would be secretary—kind of who took care of his business. He remembers that what happened was they were assembled in the prison… [coughing in background] They were assembled outside. Now, there were a lot of guards. There were around ten guards who came inside, and they took out the name of the prisoners that— first, they started with Jampa Choephel, who was the abbot. He happened to be standing in front of the door where they were taken to. There was a small room that they were taken to, and he happened to be near that door. He could overhear the conversation, and this was the only time he could hear someone talking who was taken for the execution.

With Jampa Choephel, he remembers that he was—the abbot was knelt down, and there was a translator who was basically telling them that we are taking your life’s right away. Your right to life and right to particular ideology—we’re taking that right from you. This was the punishment you’re gonna have. They gave him some paperwork and asked—they wanted his fingerprint on that paperwork—the abbot. And the abbot started actually pleading to them, that, yeah, I will support your viewpoint, and I will do a lot of good things about the Chinese. He started saying a lot of good things. He—he… but respectively, they forcefully made him fingerprint it. Get his fingerprint. They tied him rigorously. There was a wooden plank that was shoved down his back, which was pretty wide. And there was a red cross-mark to it. There was a wooden plank that was hung over his neck, and then there was a red cross to it, which meant that they were gonna be executed.

Next person that went in was the peasant, the Pema Dhonden. When he was taken to room, as soon as he was told that they were gonna take his life away and all that, he immediately responded, saying, “Oh thank you, you’re relieving me of all this nonsense, thank you so much.” Basically, what he felt about—and he basically went on and gave his fingerprints himself, and he didn’t even need to tie him down that rigorously. Because he wasn’t even yeah…

So what his personal view on that incident is: he was disappointed by the abbot’s response because he felt that respective—in respect… because the end was gonna be—he was going to be executed, and he could have gone with some respect. That’s his personal viewpoint at that point in time. And he was surprised that a peasant could think so much, so wide, so broad that he immediately did not give them the pleasure of—because he feels that when someone is punishing you and if you are reciprocating by apologizing, then, you are giving them the pleasure. So he wants them to deny them that pleasure of saying you’re sorry and everything. He felt a little disappointed that the abbot didn’t do it because he represented the monks, according to him.

[1:34:53] Q: I only have two more questions… [translator tells Palden] In Drapchi, two of the guards that inflicted the most harm, it seemed to him, was Paljor and Pema Rigzin. While he was in prison what were his thoughts towards them, or his relationship with them? You know, what did he think of them and what does he think of them now?

[Translator] Paljor and Pema, they were guards is it? 9

[Wesley] They were… they did a lot of interrogations or beatings and torturing. Paljor was the one with the electric prod that made him loose his teeth.

[1:45:25] A: Basically he says that his feelings have been same whether he was in prison or now. At the surface level when a Tibetan is torturing another Tibetan, it looks questionable about Tibetans’ integrity, especially the people who were torturing him. Then, he quotes and example of the Indian freedom struggle. He says, even if now if you watch some documentaries or films on the Indian independent struggle, you will see that most of the interrogators would be Indian themselves. So that is how a system works. This is what he believes.

He basically doesn’t—he is… So when they were torturing him, he was angry, but once that incident is over and he goes back to his cell… Now, he’s been a Buddhist since he was 10 until he was 28, that is when he was arrested. He had studied Buddhism for around 18 years, and he remembers one of the most important teachings or… teachings that his ge-la, or his teacher, mentioned to him was that anger is the cause of everything. It will destroy everything and that there’s no logic to anger. He firmly believed in this because he says that, now, Tibetans who were torturing him…

[1:46:49 Interview pauses to reset camera.]

[1:47:03 Interview resumes.]

He was saying the Tibetans who were torturing him in the cell, in prison, they also have responsibility. The Chinese, basically the Chinese are ruling Tibet. They have a job, they’ve got to do their job, and if they don’t do their job, they won’t either feed their family and there’s also a risk of getting in prison themselves. So even they don’t have any choice. This is at the surface level when you look at it that a Tibetan is torturing another Tibetan, but if you look at it deeper, the main cause is Chinese. Because if the Chinese do not ask them to torture, they will not do that. So the main cause lies there.

But again he says, now, he’s not angry towards the Chinese also. Again, the same philosophy. What he believes is probably it’s his karma from a previous life that he’s going through such torture, and if he’s angry, it’s only gonna build the negative karma again. So he doesn’t want to go through that vicious circle again and again. He firmly believes in karma, and he doesn’t— he’s not angry towards Chinese. It’s not because they are powerful and that he expects certain mercy or certain kindness from them. But it’s because he has a firm belief in karma, and that anger, as his teacher taught him, will destroy everything. And it’s—he’s gonna be in the viscous circle again. That’s the reason why he… one second [checks his notes] yeah, and that is the reason why he does not feel anger towards Chinese. But at the same time he feels responsible to bring out what’s happening. To tell the truth, to tell the facts. And that is why he’s doing what he’s doing right now.

[1:48:48] Q: Does he know where those two men are now?

[1:50:15] A: He says, Pema Rigzin was especially more sadistic than Paljor. There are rumors. The first rumor is he was probably killed out of the prison, so by probably ex-prisoners over 10 there since he was very brutal. Also, there is a rumor that he might have died out of sickness, probably, he was ill.

[1:50:39] Q: And last question… What are his hopes for the future of Tibet and its people?

[2:00:05] A: He first starts with uh—now, there are basically three ways of resolving an issue if there is a problem. Either you win, you lose, and then there’s a middle way that His Holiness promotes. Winning and losing are very basic concepts itself—when it comes to winning and losing, he says, there cannot be any solution. When there is a middle way, it means that no one wins, no one loses, but people get what they want still. And His Holiness is promoting such a way, middle way. And he has a lot of faith that this will bring out results. [pauses to check notes] His Holiness is promoting compassion and kindness. We see that now, along with a lot of foreigners, a lot of Chinese are also coming to Dharamsala to understand Buddhism and to understand His Holiness.

It’s come to a point—when he was here earlier, he used to go to these world tours. He basically used to say you can ask any question and he was not intimidated. But now when he goes abroad, he cannot say ask anything because he’s intimidated by the fact that a lot of foreigners know a lot about Buddhism, and they ask a lot of questions about Buddhism. And he has studied Buddhism for a very short period, from when he was 10 to 28. Sometimes that’s why he feels a little funny answering these questions about the Four Noble Truths and everything…

What he also says is his hope that we will—that Tibet will be free and that we will return to Tibet is a hope that he had since he was in prison. And he still has that hope. He gives an example. Lately, it’s a hearsay, that in [???], in Tibet, in Amdo region, in Tsongom… The highest Chinese official, there’s a rumor that he has made a statement that they can keep His Holiness’s picture, now, and they can follow His Holiness, but they would have to avoid any political interest.

What he’s saying is our karma is bringing results now. Things are changing, things are getting better. He is sure that we will return to Tibet someday… [checks notes] Also, he mentions that there’s no point trying to defeat the enemy outside when the actual enemy is always inside. You got to control your own feelings. You are your biggest enemy. And he says that—he again recalls the 1951 audience with His Holiness that I explained earlier, so he explained that, and finally he says: look at my karma for example. I’ve gone through bad things but now I’m happy. I get food on my table, I’m relaxed, and my karma is good now. So karma will bring Tibet back to us. That’s what he believes.

[02:03:18] Wesley: Tell him thank you so much for sitting and sharing with us so much. We very much appreciate it, and we hope the best for him.