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1 UNITED STATES SENTENCING COMMISSION + + + + + PUBLIC HEARING + + + + + Wednesday, May 27, 2009 The United States Sentencing Commission met at the University of Stanford Law School, Stanford, California, at 9:00 a.m., Ricardo H. Hinojosa, Acting Chair, presiding. MEMBERS PRESENT: RICARDO H. HINOJOSA, Acting Chair WILLIAM K. SESSIONS III, Vice Chair WILLIAM B. CARR, JR., Vice Chair BERYL A. HOWELL DABNEY L. FRIEDRICH JONATHAN J. WROBLEWSKI ALSO PRESENT: JUDITH W. SCHOEN, Staff Director GLENN R. SCHMITT, Director, Office of Research and Data LOUIS REEDT, Acting Deputy Director, Office of Research and Data NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 2 T A B L E O F C O N T E N T S Opening remarks ............................. 3 Panel I. View from the Appellate Bench ..................................... 21 Panel II. View from the District Court Bench ..................................... 80 Panel III. View from the Probation Office ................................... 150 Panel IV. View from the Executive Branch ................................... 220 Panel V. View from the Defense Bar ...................................... 276 Recess for the day ........................ 376 NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 3 1 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S 2 (8:53 a.m.) 3 ACTING CHAIR HINOJOSA: Good 4 morning. It's my honor on behalf of the 5 United States Sentencing Commission to welcome 6 you to this public hearing which is the second 7 of a series of public hearings the Sentencing 8 Commission is having across the country with 9 regards to federal sentencing policy. The 10 first one that we had was in Atlanta this past 11 February, and this is our second one. 12 We want to especially thank the 13 Stanford Law School for making this venue 14 available. And we especially want to thank 15 Dean Larry Kramer, as well as Ms. Kara Dansky, 16 who is the Executive Director of the Stanford 17 Criminal Justice Center, for their help and 18 the time that they have devoted to this 19 particular effort. And we certainly thank 20 them for their hospitality and welcome 21 everyone from the Stanford Law School 22 community who may be present. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 4 1 On behalf of the Commission also a 2 very special thank you to all of you who have 3 taken the time to be here and share your 4 thoughts with regards to the federal 5 sentencing system. We realize that each one 6 of you has a very busy schedule and that 7 you're giving some of the time that you 8 normally devote to your practice and to your 9 work and to the different endeavors that you 10 all pursue on a daily basis to be here and 11 share your thoughts, and it is very much 12 appreciated. 13 As everyone knows, 2009 is the 14 twenty-fifth anniversary of the passage of the 15 Sentencing Reform Act of 1984. It seems like 16 a long time ago, but for some of us who were 17 on the bench, it seemed like only yesterday. 18 And I will say that for those of us who were 19 on the bench at the time, it was a long time 20 coming because, as you well know, the 21 Sentencing Reform Act was discussed and 22 debated in Congress for many, many years, for NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 5 1 several years at least. And I will say that 2 it was nice to see the passage of the bill as 3 a bipartisan bill. And after much discussion 4 and debate it was obviously passed by Congress 5 and signed by the President. 6 And for those of us who were around 7 under the prior system, it was something that 8 came about as a result of the feeling of many 9 that there were problems with regards to the 10 sentencing system as it existed at that 11 particular point. 12 One of the things that we all know 13 that the Sentencing Reform Act established was 14 the bipartisan United States Sentencing 15 Commission which, of course, is a seven-member 16 commission and then two ex officio members, 17 one representative of the attorney general, 18 and then the chair of the Parole Commission 19 serving as ex officio members. 20 And the principal purposes of the 21 Commission, of course, were to establish 22 policies and principles in the federal NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 6 1 criminal justice system with regards to 2 sentencing that would assure the statutory 3 purposes of the Sentencing Reform Act. Of 4 course the guidelines themselves have been in 5 effect now for over 20 years, the very first 6 set going into effect on November 1st of 1987. 7 In those 20-some years the 8 Commission has continued to promulgate 9 guidelines and amendments throughout the 10 process on a yearly basis with regards to 11 things that need to be changed, also with 12 regards to reactions to changes in the system, 13 whether they be Supreme Court cases or changes 14 in the criminal legislation by Congress with 15 regards to creation of new criminal violations 16 and changes to criminal statutes. 17 So the Commission has continued to 18 strive to satisfy statutory requirements with 19 regards to changes that it makes and that it 20 responds to with regards to the system. I 21 will say that some of the changes also come 22 about as a result of input, obviously very NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 7 1 important input, from the federal judiciary 2 itself through the sentencing practices that 3 they conduct and the information that the 4 Commission receives. 5 I will indicate that when the 6 Commission changes guidelines or promulgates 7 guidelines, it certainly acts within the 8 conformity of its statutory responsibilities 9 which include considering the Title 18 U.S. 10 Code Section 3553(a) factors with regards to 11 the promulgation of guidelines and/or 12 amendments to guidelines. 13 And it is true that a lot has 14 changed since November 1st of 1987. For 15 example, the number of federal defendants 16 being sentenced in federal court has doubled 17 since 1987. It continues to be about 80 18 percent of the federal sentencing occurs with 19 regards to four types of crimes: Drugs, 20 immigration, firearms, and fraud. 21 There has been some change with 22 regards to the makeup of the docket itself. NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 8 1 Drugs have gone lower on a yearly basis and 2 immigration has risen on a yearly basis 3 certainly in the last several years. There 4 has been a change in the makeup of the 5 defendants in federal court. 6 In fiscal year 2008, 40.5 percent 7 of the defendants that were sentenced in the 8 federal system with regards to the information 9 that was sent to the Commission, which would 10 be felony cases and certain types of 11 misdemeanor cases, were noncitizens of the 12 United States. Forty-two percent were 13 Hispanic. 14 It's also interesting to note that 15 in the first quarter of fiscal year 2009 the 16 Hispanic percentage has risen to 45.4 percent 17 and the noncitizens has risen to about 44 18 percent. Also in fiscal year 2009, the first 19 quarter, is the first time that immigration 20 cases have gone to a higher percentage than 21 the drug cases. So there is a change in the 22 type of docket that is appearing in the NEAL R. GROSS COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com 9 1 federal courts. 2 There are some changes that have 3 not occurred. Men continue to be the vast 4 majority of the defendants. The age makeup 5 has not changed during this period of time. 6 More than half of the federal defendants are 7 between the ages of 21 and 35. 8 The sentencing courts, a lot of 9 questions are asked after Booker what are 10 courts doing. And I will see that, as Booker 11 made it quite clear, the sentencing courts 12 continue to use the federal sentencing 13 guidelines as the initial benchmark. They 14 have to be determined and they have to be 15 started with, with regards to every federal 16 sentencing. And that is certainly what the 17 Supreme Court has said and that's certainly 18 what the judges have continued to do. 19 I will also indicate that it 20 appears that the vast majority of cases 21 continue to be sentenced within the federal 22 sentencing guidelines either within the NEAL R.