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Parliamentary Debates (Hansard) Tuesday Volume 575 4 February 2014 No. 117 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Tuesday 4 February 2014 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 117 4 FEBRUARY 2014 118 enormous financial challenges that we face. We would House of Commons not have wished to take these decisions, but given the inheritance that we received from the last Government, Tuesday 4 February 2014 there is no option but to do so. The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Oliver Colvile: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the reforms are designed to impact on those who receive the most in legal aid fees, while protecting those at the PRAYERS lower end of the scale? [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Chris Grayling: I can confirm that. In taking a range of difficult decisions, we have sought to ensure that the impact is felt most significantly higher up the income scale. I am well aware that people at the junior end of Oral Answers to Questions the income scale face considerably more financial pressure than those who are further up. We have sought to put together a package that has a disproportionate impact further up the income scale, for example through our JUSTICE changes to very high cost case fees. The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Speaker: I call Mr Bob Blackman. Not here. Oh Legal Aid dear. 1. Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): When he next Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The plans to announce progress on his legal aid proposals. Justice Secretary’s plan A of dismantling the independent [902373] legal Bar seems to be going very well. Will he tell us about his plan B and the public defender service? 10. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con): What progress he has made on reducing the cost Chris Grayling: I am having to take difficult decisions to the public purse of legal aid. [902383] on the fees that we pay for the independent Bar, but I 14. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What have absolutely no intention of dismantling it. It is an progress he has made on reducing the cost to the public important part of our justice system and will continue purse of legal aid. [902387] to be so. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): (Chris Grayling): I welcome the Minister of State, Ministry My right hon. Friend is to be congratulated on trying to of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for get the costs of legal aid down. He knows that I have Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) to concerns about the impact on the criminal Bar. What my Front-Bench team. I also inform the House that alternative funding has he looked at or will he be Lord Faulks has joined my team in the House of Lords. looking at to get costs down? I pay tribute to Lord McNally, who has left the Front-Bench team, for the excellent work that he did on behalf of the Chris Grayling: We have looked at a variety of ways Government. of minimising the impact on different parts of our I will shortly publish final proposals covering the two justice system of the difficult decisions that we have had areas that are subject to consultation in the “Transforming to take. I reassure my right hon. Friend that the decisions Legal Aid: Next Steps” document: the procurement of that we are taking on legal aid are in proportion to the criminal litigation services and reform of the advocacy decisions that we are having to take in the rest of the fee scheme. I anticipate that the total saving from the Department—the legal aid budget is coming down by transforming legal aid proposals will be £220 million the same proportion as the overall departmental budget. per year by 2018-19. That is in addition to the £320 million In relation to the Bar, I have sought, where I can do so, that has been saved as part of the Government’s previous to put in place ameliorating measures, such as the offer reforms, which were enacted in the Legal Aid, Sentencing to introduce a staged payment system, which at the very and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. least will improve the cash flow of working barristers, even if we have to take tough decisions about the Yvonne Fovargue: Trafford law centre closed last week, amount that we pay. Barnet law centre faces closure in March, and many more advice agencies and citizens advice bureaux face Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I, too, welcome the closure or redundancies, which will reduce services for Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, the right hon. the most vulnerable. What assessment is being made of Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon the impact of those closures, which have been caused by Hughes) to his position and congratulate him on his the cumulative effect of cuts to civil legal aid and other promotion. cuts, through an increased demand on other public services, such as the health service? The Government’s salami-slicing of civil legal aid over the past three years and of criminal legal aid over Chris Grayling: We will clearly continue to review the next 15 months will, according to independent those matters. The decisions that we are making are of experts, deny hundreds of thousands of citizens access course difficult, but we have to make them because we to decent advice and representation. Law centres and have to bring down the cost of legal aid to deal with the high street firms are closing down, as we have heard, 119 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 120 and junior barristers are leaving the profession. That a utility company. Will the Minister outline what measures should worry us all. If the Justice Secretary was provided the Government are taking to increase the number of with costed proposals that would make similar savings such cases that are taken to mediation services before over the next 15 months but without the devastating such costly legal action occurs? consequences, would the Government reconsider their plans? Simon Hughes: The hon. Gentleman is quite right to identify the costs involved. In matrimonial and other Chris Grayling: I sometimes find the Opposition’s matters, if there is mediation the average cost to both attitude completely breathtaking. It is but two and a parties is £500; if they go to law the average cost is half years since they attacked our proposals to reform £4,000. Mediation takes 110 days on average; going to civil legal aid, saying that the savings should be found law takes 435 days. The Government are committed to from criminal legal aid instead. Now they appear to ensuring that we use mediation wherever possible, and have done a complete U-turn. Is the right hon. Gentleman we will collectively promote it heavily over the next few prepared to commit in the House today that if a Labour weeks. There will be a round table and a web interchange, Government are elected at the next election, they will and it will be one of the priorities for me and the reverse the cuts? I suspect that the answer is no. Ministry of Justice. Mediation Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab): The whole House agrees that mediation is preferable 2. Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): to ordinary members of the public falling into the What assessment he has made of the potential role of hands of lawyers. However, given that the Government’s mediation in reducing the number of court cases. emphasis on mediation is largely driven by cost, is there [902374] not a danger that in family law, women will be left vulnerable to violence and abuse because of the emphasis 9. Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): What on mediation rather than immediate legal redress? assessment he has made of the potential role of mediation in reducing the number of court cases. [902382] Simon Hughes: That issue is very important and well understood. Under the Children and Families Bill, which The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon is currently going through Parliament, there will be a Hughes): The Government have put in place an extensive requirement that people consider whether mediation is awareness strategy, and we believe that the more people appropriate. We are clear that in domestic abuse cases, it can attend mediation, the more significant the impact absolutely may not be appropriate, and there will be no will be on reducing the number of applications made to requirement of mediation in cases in which it would be court. We have increased the legal aid budget for family to the disadvantage of either party or to the children of mediation. There are data about the amount of mediation the family. that takes place, but we cannot tell specifically who has attended mediation rather than gone to court. 17. [902390] Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): What guarantee can the Minister give that both parties will Robert Neill: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman have access to legal advice before and during on his appointment. Does he agree that mediation is mediation? well established in the commercial law field and growing in the family and matrimonial law field, but that we are Simon Hughes: At the moment, legal advice and legal perhaps missing a trick in two areas? The first is in aid cover mediation.
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