Tuesday Volume 575 4 February 2014 No. 117

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 4 February 2014

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 117 4 FEBRUARY 2014 118

enormous financial challenges that we face. We would House of Commons not have wished to take these decisions, but given the inheritance that we received from the last Government, Tuesday 4 February 2014 there is no option but to do so.

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Oliver Colvile: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the reforms are designed to impact on those who receive the most in legal aid fees, while protecting those at the PRAYERS lower end of the scale?

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Chris Grayling: I can confirm that. In taking a range of difficult decisions, we have sought to ensure that the impact is felt most significantly higher up the income scale. I am well aware that people at the junior end of Oral Answers to Questions the income scale face considerably more financial pressure than those who are further up. We have sought to put together a package that has a disproportionate impact further up the income scale, for example through our JUSTICE changes to very high cost case fees.

The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Speaker: I call Mr Bob Blackman. Not here. Oh Legal Aid dear. 1. Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): When he next Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): The plans to announce progress on his legal aid proposals. Justice Secretary’s plan A of dismantling the independent [902373] legal Bar seems to be going very well. Will he tell us about his plan B and the public defender service? 10. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con): What progress he has made on reducing the cost Chris Grayling: I am having to take difficult decisions to the public purse of legal aid. [902383] on the fees that we pay for the independent Bar, but I 14. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): What have absolutely no intention of dismantling it. It is an progress he has made on reducing the cost to the public important part of our justice system and will continue purse of legal aid. [902387] to be so. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): (Chris Grayling): I welcome the Minister of State, Ministry My right hon. Friend is to be congratulated on trying to of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for get the costs of legal aid down. He knows that I have Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) to concerns about the impact on the criminal Bar. What my Front-Bench team. I also inform the House that alternative funding has he looked at or will he be Lord Faulks has joined my team in the House of Lords. looking at to get costs down? I pay tribute to Lord McNally, who has left the Front-Bench team, for the excellent work that he did on behalf of the Chris Grayling: We have looked at a variety of ways Government. of minimising the impact on different parts of our I will shortly publish final proposals covering the two justice system of the difficult decisions that we have had areas that are subject to consultation in the “Transforming to take. I reassure my right hon. Friend that the decisions Legal Aid: Next Steps” document: the procurement of that we are taking on legal aid are in proportion to the criminal litigation services and reform of the advocacy decisions that we are having to take in the rest of the fee scheme. I anticipate that the total saving from the Department—the legal aid budget is coming down by transforming legal aid proposals will be £220 million the same proportion as the overall departmental budget. per year by 2018-19. That is in addition to the £320 million In relation to the Bar, I have sought, where I can do so, that has been saved as part of the Government’s previous to put in place ameliorating measures, such as the offer reforms, which were enacted in the Legal Aid, Sentencing to introduce a staged payment system, which at the very and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. least will improve the cash flow of working barristers, even if we have to take tough decisions about the Yvonne Fovargue: Trafford law centre closed last week, amount that we pay. Barnet law centre faces closure in March, and many more advice agencies and citizens advice bureaux face Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): I, too, welcome the closure or redundancies, which will reduce services for Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, the right hon. the most vulnerable. What assessment is being made of Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon the impact of those closures, which have been caused by Hughes) to his position and congratulate him on his the cumulative effect of cuts to civil legal aid and other promotion. cuts, through an increased demand on other public services, such as the health service? The Government’s salami-slicing of civil legal aid over the past three years and of criminal legal aid over Chris Grayling: We will clearly continue to review the next 15 months will, according to independent those matters. The decisions that we are making are of experts, deny hundreds of thousands of citizens access course difficult, but we have to make them because we to decent advice and representation. Law centres and have to bring down the cost of legal aid to deal with the high street firms are closing down, as we have heard, 119 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 120 and junior barristers are leaving the profession. That a utility company. Will the Minister outline what measures should worry us all. If the Justice Secretary was provided the Government are taking to increase the number of with costed proposals that would make similar savings such cases that are taken to mediation services before over the next 15 months but without the devastating such costly legal action occurs? consequences, would the Government reconsider their plans? Simon Hughes: The hon. Gentleman is quite right to identify the costs involved. In matrimonial and other Chris Grayling: I sometimes find the Opposition’s matters, if there is mediation the average cost to both attitude completely breathtaking. It is but two and a parties is £500; if they go to law the average cost is half years since they attacked our proposals to reform £4,000. Mediation takes 110 days on average; going to civil legal aid, saying that the savings should be found law takes 435 days. The Government are committed to from criminal legal aid instead. Now they appear to ensuring that we use mediation wherever possible, and have done a complete U-turn. Is the right hon. Gentleman we will collectively promote it heavily over the next few prepared to commit in the House today that if a Labour weeks. There will be a round table and a web interchange, Government are elected at the next election, they will and it will be one of the priorities for me and the reverse the cuts? I suspect that the answer is no. Ministry of Justice. Mediation Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab): The whole House agrees that mediation is preferable 2. Robert Neill (Bromley and Chislehurst) (Con): to ordinary members of the public falling into the What assessment he has made of the potential role of hands of lawyers. However, given that the Government’s mediation in reducing the number of court cases. emphasis on mediation is largely driven by cost, is there [902374] not a danger that in family law, women will be left vulnerable to violence and abuse because of the emphasis 9. Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): What on mediation rather than immediate legal redress? assessment he has made of the potential role of mediation in reducing the number of court cases. [902382] Simon Hughes: That issue is very important and well understood. Under the Children and Families Bill, which The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon is currently going through Parliament, there will be a Hughes): The Government have put in place an extensive requirement that people consider whether mediation is awareness strategy, and we believe that the more people appropriate. We are clear that in domestic abuse cases, it can attend mediation, the more significant the impact absolutely may not be appropriate, and there will be no will be on reducing the number of applications made to requirement of mediation in cases in which it would be court. We have increased the legal aid budget for family to the disadvantage of either party or to the children of mediation. There are data about the amount of mediation the family. that takes place, but we cannot tell specifically who has attended mediation rather than gone to court. 17. [902390] Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): What guarantee can the Minister give that both parties will Robert Neill: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman have access to legal advice before and during on his appointment. Does he agree that mediation is mediation? well established in the commercial law field and growing in the family and matrimonial law field, but that we are Simon Hughes: At the moment, legal advice and legal perhaps missing a trick in two areas? The first is in aid cover mediation. Someone does not necessarily ensuring that that more use is made of mediation in need legal advice to go into the process, although the land compensation and related planning disputes. Will mediators may recommend that they need legal advice, he meet me to discuss whether the Bill on High Speed 2 which will be available in a legally aided way. It is often gives the Government an opportunity to promote that necessary to have lawyers involved to draw up the and to create greater awareness among fellow Departments, agreement that the mediators have reached, and that and— will also be publicly fundable by the legal aid service if someone is within the eligibility limits. Mr Speaker: Order. I say to the hon. Gentleman that if he was paid by the word when he was practising at the Bar, he must have become a very rich man indeed. Mr Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con): Will the Minister advise the House on the take-up of mediation Simon Hughes: First, the whole Government are in the small claims courts since the threshold for small committed to mediation being used whenever possible, claims was increased to £10,000? although it is not always practical. HS2 and other such matters are well beyond my brief, and I am not going to Simon Hughes: I do not have that figure in front of be that brave on my first outing. me, but I will willingly give it to the hon. Gentleman and make it known more widely. I am clear that we have Dr Offord: In recent months, I have dealt with several a duty to re-engage people with the idea that mediation cases for constituents, including one in which a constituent is available. The figures have gone down in some areas was presented with a £15,000 legal bill for civil court in the past year, and we want them to go up. We hope to costs over the siting of his rubbish bin. Another constituent be able to report a significant increase in the number of lost a case after failed joint legal action with the local people using mediation by the end of the year, but I will council, when his wall collapsed after being damaged by of course give him the figures. 121 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 122

Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): We know Jeremy Wright: I agree with my hon. Friend and that the Secretary of State is not a big fan of due think that where the court deems it appropriate, offenders process, because otherwise he would not have briefed young and old should be engaged in putting something The Times this morning on how the criminal justice and back into the communities they have damaged by their courts Bill will keep developers and other Tory donors offending. I also think it important that communities happy by curbing judicial review—a subject on which see that happening. he has not yet responded to consultation. However, Ministers should play by the rules when answering Karl McCartney: Will the Minister confirm that young questions in the Chamber, so will the Minister correct offenders such as those in Her Majesty’s Prison Lincoln the record for Justice questions on 17 December, when who have worked with Gelder Group, a forward-thinking the Secretary of State said three times that there would construction company in Lincolnshire, say that better be no change in the number of mediations, even though education and skills would help them stay away from his Department’s figures show a year-on-year fall of crime once they are released from custody? 35%? Jeremy Wright: My hon. Friend is right: that is exactly what we hear from young offenders, and evidence is Simon Hughes: First, on matters in the legislation to overwhelming that young offenders who engage in be announced I caution the hon. Gentleman to be education, get qualifications, and go on to find work, careful of being overly critical. have a better chance of staying out of trouble. That is exactly what we want to see. Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): It is all in the press. Steve Brine: Does the Minister agree that custody in Simon Hughes: It is certainly not all in the press, and secure colleges provides an opportunity to end the the Bill might be much more encouraging to people chaos that many of these children face and to impose than the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) boundaries that have all too often been lacking in their might wish it to be. On the take-up of mediation, we do lives? Will he stick rigidly to the cross-departmental not have the figure for a full year but it is unarguable approach that was set out so intelligently in the that figures have gone down. We are making sure, and “Transforming Youth Custody” paper, which is now a we are hoping, that when we have the full-year figures, year old? we will see that we have reversed that. I will keep the House and the hon. Gentleman updated about those Jeremy Wright: We want to see a cross-Government figures over the year ahead. approach to this, and my hon. Friend is right to say that many other Departments have an interest in what we Young Offenders are doing. He is also right that a period of stability is vital. It may be a relatively short period of incarceration for those young people, but it is probably one of the few 3. Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): What plans he opportunities they have had to be clear about where has to ensure that young offenders leave custody better their next meal will come from and where they are going equipped to avoid a life of crime. [902375] to sleep, and to give us the space to address some of their significant problems. That is a large part of what 5. Karl McCartney (Lincoln) (Con): What plans he we intend to do. has to ensure that young offenders leave custody better equipped to avoid a life of crime. [902377] John Howell: As well as providing support to young offenders to turn their lives around, will the Minister 7. Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): What plans he has say what regime is in place so that a young offenders to ensure that young offenders leave custody better institution becomes a deterrent for going back there? equipped to avoid a life of crime. [902380] Jeremy Wright: It is certainly important that the 11. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What plans he has environment of a young offenders institution does not to ensure that young offenders leave custody better encourage those in it to think it is comfortable and to equipped to avoid a life of crime. [902384] want to go back. For that reason, my hon. Friend will be encouraged to hear that we are looking at changes to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice the incentives and earned privileges scheme in young (Jeremy Wright): The Government will introduce a new offenders institutions, in the same way as we have pathfinder secure college in 2017, which will equip considered changes in the adult estate. We want to young offenders with the skills and qualifications they ensure that where young people have access to privileges, need to pursue a life free from crime. We are also they get them only when they have earned them. enhancing education provision in young offenders Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): A report published institutions, and taking steps to improve the resettlement by the chief inspector of prisons on 17 December last of young people leaving custody. year suggested that it was easier for inmates to get drugs than clean underwear in prison, and a number of young Julian Sturdy: Last year the York and North Yorkshire offenders acquire a drugs habit in prison. How can we Probation Trust community payback team joined forces break the cycle when they leave? with local residents to carry out a spring-clean in York. Graffiti was painted over, broken fences fixed, and Jeremy Wright: The right hon. Gentleman is right to public spaces brought back to life. Will the Minister say that drugs in prison—whether adult prisons or join me in encouraging more initiatives of that kind, young offender institutions—are a continuing problem, which provide young offenders not only with valuable but as he and I have discussed, that problem is changing. skills, but also a sense of community responsibility? Increasingly we see good reductions in mandatory drug 123 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 124 testing rates for adult institutions—down from some Jeremy Wright: The hon. Gentleman is right to focus 25% positive results to nearer 7%—but an increase in on this issue. Every one of those cases is a very real problems with drugs that are not in and of themselves personal tragedy and a worrying sign for the system, illegal, but which should not be misused in prisons. For but that does not mean that we should react in the that reason we need to change the testing regime and wrong way. I think it is appropriate that we think very give ourselves more tools to address the problem, which carefully about what level of investigation is necessary. I is what we seek to do. can tell the hon. Gentleman, as he may already know, that, in relation to each death, a variety of different investigations take place both internally within the prison Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): Under system and from the coroner, and, in many cases, from the previous Government, the youth offending teams others too. That does not mean, however, that there is brought together professionals from different areas to not perhaps a case for looking more broadly at what help to tackle youth offending and bring down youth wider lessons can be learned. That is exactly what we crime. What is the Minister doing to invest in mental are considering at the moment. It is what I am applying health services and drug rehabilitation services in particular? my mind to now. I will let him know as soon as I can Skills are important, but, if the issues that affect many what we think the right conclusions should be. of our young offenders are not addressed, they are likely to return to crime. Whole-life Tariffs

Jeremy Wright: The hon. Lady is right that youth 4. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What recent offending teams do valuable work. They continue to do discussions he has had with judges on the judgment of that work, of course, supported by the Youth Justice the European Court of Human Rights on whole-life Board. We are looking at the moment at how we can tariffs. [902376] strengthen youth offending teams and have greater support from the YouthJustice Board to ensure that high standards The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice are maintained. She is right, too, that one of the advantages (Chris Grayling): I have had no recent discussions with of the youth offending team model is that it brings the judiciary about the Strasbourg Court judgment in together a variety of different agencies, including those Vinter and others about whole life orders. The reason within the health sphere. She is right that mental health for that is that the Government have been arguing in the questions, in particular, are often relevant to addressing Court of Appeal that whole-life tariffs are wholly justified wider reoffending needs. in the most heinous cases. That process is continuing and we await the Court’s decision with interest. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Children in care are some of our most vulnerable young people, yet far Philip Davies: Mr Justice Sweeney has already refused too many end up in prison due to a lack of support to give a whole-life tariff to a murderer due to a ruling when they leave care. Will the Minister tell us what work from the European Court of Human Rights, and he has he is doing with colleagues in other Departments to deferred the sentencing for the murderers of Drummer support care leavers, and to reduce the number of Lee Rigby, who most right-thinking people think should young people who turn to crime, both while in care and get a whole-life tariff. When are we going to withdraw when they have left care? from the European convention on human rights and the increasingly barmy European Court of Human Rights, so that we can ensure that a life sentence means a life Jeremy Wright: I work closely with the Under-Secretary sentence for the murderers of Lee Rigby? of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), the Minister with Chris Grayling: I agree with my hon. Friend’s sentiments. responsibility for children and families, who, as the hon. We have gone to the Court of Appeal to ensure we can Gentleman knows, takes a close interest in the welfare continue to give whole-life tariffs in this country. My of children in care and those who leave care. He is right view is that this should always be a matter for Parliament, that a connection is, unfortunately, often made between but as he knows, while we have good collaborative those leaving care and those who end up in the criminal relationships across the coalition and while we agree on justice system, but it is important that we address the many things, there are some things we do not agree on, needs of young offenders throughout the process. He and this is one of them, so I am afraid that wholesale will appreciate that the Ministry of Justice encounters change to our relationship with the European Court of these young people quite late on in that process, but he Human Rights, which I personally think is urgently is right that there should be co-ordination and that will needed, will have to await the election of a majority continue. Conservative Government.

Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): Recently, a jury Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Will the inquest into the death of a 17-year-old at a young Justice Secretary think about what he just said? He offenders institution indicated a string of failures by the might agree or disagree with an individual decision of authorities to safeguard the life of a vulnerable boy. In the ECHR, but does he not recognise that having a the past 10 months, there have been 12 deaths in custody European-wide convention which protects the human of those aged 24 or younger. In the past 10 years, there rights of everybody in every country that is a signatory have been 163 deaths. Will the Secretary of State and to it is good for all of us, including victims of irrational the Minister consider inviting the Justice Select Committee justice decisions in other jurisdictions? Will he not to undertake a review into how deaths of young people declare that we support the idea of a European convention in custody can be prevented? on human rights and that we will not withdraw from it? 125 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 126

Chris Grayling: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman HMP Oakwood and I take a different view on this matter. I simply refer him to the recent comments by Lord Judge, the previous Lord Chief Justice and distinguished judicial figure 6. Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): What steps he is who commands respect around the country. He said he planning to take to improve the performance of HMP believed the Court had overstepped the mark, and I Oakwood. [902379] agree with him. It is a tragedy, given the Court’s history, but it is the reality, and it has to be dealt with. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright): We are working closely with the contractor Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Does the Justice at Oakwood to implement the recommendations in last Secretary think it helps those of us campaigning for year’s report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons. LGBT+ rights in Russia, for example, or trying to As with other new prisons, Oakwood has experienced persuade Belarus to behave more like a responsible initial challenges, but action has been taken and the country for this country to be so negative about the prison’s performance is improving. We expect that European convention on human rights and the European improvement to continue over the next 12 months. Court? These are our standards, and we should be trying to export them, not pull away from them ourselves. Paul Flynn: A prison officer on the scene described the disturbance as a full-scale prison riot, but the Chris Grayling: Fundamentally, in my opinion, the Government and the contractor described it as “concerted problem is that the Court is interpreting the convention ill-discipline”—that might be a perfectly adequate as an unfettered jurisprudence that allows it to move description of the behaviour of Back-Bench Tory MPs. into areas never envisaged by the people who wrote the I urge the Government to abandon this PR spin and for convention. My clear view is that the Court is moving once to tell the simple truth. into areas that are matters for national Parliaments and which do not belong within the remit of an international Jeremy Wright: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the court. It is a matter of disagreement between the coalition term “concerted indiscipline” has been used by both parties—we are open and honest about that—but we Governments to describe incidents that have occurred will leave it to the electorate in 14 months to decide in both the public sector estate and the private sector which of our approaches they prefer. estate. There has been no cover-up. I went to Oakwood 10 days ago and spoke to an officer engaged in the Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Wouldthe Secretary incident. I also spoke to a prisoner who, although not of State care to reflect on the role of the European involved, was there at the time. I saw some of the CCTV Court of Human Rights in protecting fundamental coverage, too, so I am very clear about how serious the freedoms in this country that he would support? For incident was, but to describe it as a full-scale riot is in example, it was due to the Court that journalists were my view inaccurate. Twenty prisoners were involved in not forced to reveal their sources and that people were the incident, out of a total of 1,600. The wing is now allowed to go on wearing crucifixes when they had been back in use and the issue was professionally resolved. told not to wear them. These are essential and fundamental That is what we would expect from prisons in the freedoms that I know he agrees with. Would he care to private or public sector. I do not think it is wise to comment on that? overstate the significance of this incident in the context of what happens in other places. Chris Grayling: Where I differ is that I do not believe it is necessary to have an international court deciding Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Does the things that should be a matter for this Parliament and Minister agree that one way to relieve pressure on our courts. That is what needs to change. Oakwood would be to reopen the prison in Wellingborough, which took category C prisoners? Will he update the House on what progress has been made regarding Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): I strongly Wellingborough? support my right hon. Friend’s stand on this matter. Does he agree that just one example of how far the European Court of Human Rights has moved from its Jeremy Wright: Even by my hon. Friend’s high standards, original foundations is that the British Government and that is inventive. As I have said to him before, we will of the lawyers who were instrumental in setting it up were course consider again, as he has asked me to, whether also responsible for the largest programme of judicial Wellingborough is a suitable venue for a large new executions—of Nazis at Nuremburg—in modern British prison for the London area, but that is entirely separate history? from the judgments we need to make about how the rest of the estate operates. However, I will of course keep Chris Grayling: It is certainly the case that the him informed as our thinking develops. jurisprudence of the Court has moved a long way from where it started, and some things have clearly changed Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): The coalition has for the better, but I would argue now that the decisions characteristically dealt with the difficult decision of coming out of the Court are matters that should be whether the prison at Wrexham will be in the public or addressed in this and other Parliaments. Of course, this private sector by deferring it, probably beyond the next is an area where there are divisions between all the general election. How can we prepare to ensure that the parties in the House, and I have no doubt that it will be type of incident that occurred at Oakwood does not an area of lively debate as we approach the general occur at Wrexham in 2017, when we do not know how election, when the people will decide. the prison will be run? 127 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 128

Jeremy Wright: I am not sure whether the hon. Victims of Crime Gentleman’s case is that what happened at Oakwood was because it was privately run or because it was too 8. Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): What recent steps he big. has taken to support victims of crime. [902381]

Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): Both. The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (Damian Green): The Government are giving more support Jeremy Wright: That is very helpful. Let me help the to victims, and giving them a louder voice in the criminal right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend. In relation justice system. We have introduced a new victims code, to the size of the prison, it was the last Labour Government which gives victims more help throughout the criminal who decided to set it at 1,600 prisoners, and in relation justice process. We are also exploring ways of reducing to its running, it was the last Labour Government who the distress caused to victims of sexual violence by decided to put the management of the prison up for cross-examination in court, and we aim to provide up to competition and not retain it in the public sector. Therefore, £100 million—more money than ever before—to help on both counts it is not us on the Government Benches victims to cope and recover from crime. whom the right hon. Gentleman should be talking to; it is those on his own Benches. Priti Patel: My right hon. Friend is aware of my In relation to Wrexham, we have quite properly said long-standing support for victims of crime. He is also that there is an initial decision to be made, which is aware that my constituent Marie Heath lost her job whether a large new prison should be built at Wrexham. because she had to take time off work to attend the trial As the hon. Gentleman knows, we were asked to build it of criminals who murdered her son in Frankfurt. Does on that site by his own council and a large number of he agree that employers should show sympathy to employees other members of the Labour party in north Wales. The who are bereaved in such horrific cases? decision to be taken now is who should build it; we will make a decision about who should run it in due course. Damian Green: The whole House will sympathise with my hon. Friend’s view, and, in particular, with her Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Will my constituent Marie Heath. The Government fund a national hon. Friend look at what the chief inspector of prisons homicide service which supports bereaved people by, said to the Select Committee on Justice this morning for instance, giving them access to support and guidance, about Oakwood, which is that there are special problems helping them to explain their position to their employers, in managing very large prisons and in new prisons? and enabling them to gain access to legal advice. When both things are brought together, there are surely training and staffing requirements that the Department Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): The extent to which needs to consider. sexual attacks and exploitation affect the way in which victims give evidence in court is poorly understood, and Jeremy Wright: There are undoubtedly issues that the difficulties that such people experience when giving arise with every new prison. New prisons in both the evidence are often used to undermine them and their public and the private sector, and of all sizes, have credibility as witnesses. The wider use of registered encountered these kinds of difficulties. My right hon. intermediaries would help to ensure that the evidence of Friend is right, too, that it is necessary to pay close the best possible quality was obtained during cross- attention to the training needs of staff. We will do examination. I know that the Minister is very supportive that—that is already under way—and both the contractors of that idea, but what is his view of the barriers that still and the MOJ are keen to ensure that these issues are prevent the use of registered intermediaries? addressed. Damian Green: There are certainly no barriers as far Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I am afraid this as I am concerned. I entirely agree with the hon. Lady prison is two years old now, and we would have hoped about the importance of registered intermediaries. As to see some progress. The Minister is being way too she knows, as well as introducing a victims code, we are complacent about the failure of G4S at Oakwood. taking other steps to help particularly vulnerable victims Given the delay in implementing the probation changes, of the type that she has described, which include the due to fears of public safety, how do we know that he introduction of changes in the way in which they can will not be equally tolerant of failure when he privatises give evidence. In some cases video evidence can be used, probation? and we are consulting on how to surmount the problems posed by the multiple cross-examination of vulnerable Jeremy Wright: There is no complacency on this issue witnesses in other cases. Obviously, we will continue at all. Let us get the facts right. Oakwood has been that work. operating at full capacity since February last year, and it is not unheard of that prisons—in the public or private Mr Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): One of the sector, as I said—have difficulties of this nature in the Government’s objectives is to ensure that victims receive first two years of operation. That does not mean that much more compensation and restoration from offenders we do not address those difficulties, but it is important themselves. What progress is being made in that regard? to put them in context. If I may ever so gently say so to the hon. Lady, when I was at Oakwood 10 days ago, one Damian Green: I am pleased to report to my hon. of the comments made to me by staff who work there Friend that we are making significant progress. Increased was that it does not help their already difficult job when use of the victim surcharge means that more money is their workplace is used for party political purposes to available for victims’ services than ever before, and we exaggerate what is going on there. hope in time to double the amount that is currently 129 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 130 available from £50 million to £100 million. I am sure Charlie Elphicke: I thank the Minister for that answer. that the whole House will welcome the fact that the Property boundary disputes are stressful and cause a lot extra money will come from offenders themselves. of heartache, and cost a lot of money unnecessarily. May I urge the Minister to move ahead on this and Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): As the Minister consider introducing reform proposals to this House? will know, those who deal with victims of domestic violence fear that the services they currently receive will Mr Vara: I agree with my hon. Friend that boundary not be maintained when police commissioners take over disputes can often be bitter, protracted and indeed the provision of support for victims, and those in areas expensive. I can assure him that the Department is such as Warrington still do not know how much money working at pace to come up with the conclusions of the will be provided in April. Is he prepared to give the scoping study, and we hope to report on that as soon as House a commitment that support for those very vulnerable is practicable. victims will be maintained? Victims Code Damian Green: Obviously that will be a decision for individual police and crime commissioners, but they 13. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): will all be very aware of the need to help, in particular, What effect he expects the victims code to have on the the most vulnerable victims. As I have said, not only will experience of victims in the criminal justice system. the total budget available be greater than ever before— [902386] [Interruption.] The hon. Lady says that I am not deciding how the budget is distributed. No, I am not: the decision is being made by elected people at local level, and I 15. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What effect think that that is more likely to provide locally sensitive he expects the victims code to have on the experience of and tailored services than a decision made by someone victims in the criminal justice system. [902388] sitting in London. The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Local commissioning of (Damian Green): The victims code will have a positive victim support will start in October. Will the Minister effect on the experience of victims in the criminal justice reject the proposal to base the funding on population system. The new code gives victims clearer entitlements; rather than on the number of victims, so that police a louder voice, including a right to read a victim personal authority areas such as Cleveland do not lose out? statement aloud; enhanced entitlements for victims of the most serious crime, and vulnerable or intimidated and persistently targeted victims; and a more effective Damian Green: I do not agree with my hon. Friend. means of redress. In particular, I do not agree with his suggestion that his area will lose out. The fact is that every area in the country will receive more money under our proposed Mr Buckland: I thank my right hon. Friend for that system than it was receiving under the previous system, answer. How will he make sure restorative justice measures so no one will lose out. are truly victim-led and that those who wish to seek restorative justice at a stage later than the sentencing process will be able to do so easily? Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Does the Minister agree that victims of assaults, especially serious assaults, should be warned when the offenders are due to leave prison? If Damian Green: I am happy to tell my hon. Friend he does agree, will he tell me what he is doing to ensure that of the money the police and crime commissioners that that happens? will be using, up to £18 million is specifically ring-fenced for restorative justice services. That funding will help us to ensure that restorative justice is available at all stages Damian Green: I do agree with the hon. Gentleman, of the process so that victims can make properly informed and the system is there to enable that to happen. However, decisions about whether they want to participate in if he can cite individual cases in which it is not happening, restorative justice at the point in the process that best I urge him to write to me, and I will investigate. serves their needs.

Property Boundary Disputes Graham Evans: What assessment has the Minister’s Department made of how the victims code will support 12. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What assessment the victims of human trafficking? he has made of options for reform of real property boundary disputes; and if he will make a statement. Damian Green: The new victims code provides an [902385] enhanced service for victims of the most serious crime and that includes victims of human trafficking. This The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice will enable them to have quicker updates on the status (Mr Shailesh Vara): The Ministry of Justice is in the of their case and to have referral to pre-trial therapy process of completing the initial scoping study on and counselling, which is often appropriate in those the issue of property boundary disputes announced by cases. my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) in February last year in her reply to Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The my hon. Friend’s written questions on this subject. The Minister must have seen in the national newspapers this Department will publish its findings in due course, morning the incidents of alleged rape and how in some when Ministers have considered the options. parts of the country there is very poor follow-up of 131 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 132 these allegations. Will his victims code help those women Bailiff Reform who have been raped and then find that the police do not take their case seriously enough? 18. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): What progress his Department has made on bailiff Damian Green: I agree that the point made in this reform. [902392] morning’s reports is very serious, and I can assure the House that it is not just the victims code that will help. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice We have written to PCCs and chief constables encouraging (Mr Shailesh Vara): We have legislated to set out the them to use these recently issued data in conjunction process that bailiffs must follow when taking control of with the data on referrals to the Crown Prosecution goods, and to introduce a simplified, transparent fee Service to improve all forces’ response to rape. We have structure. Further legislation for a new certification also involved the Director of Public Prosecutions in process will ensure that only fit and proper individuals setting up a scrutiny panel to look at how forces deal can work as bailiffs. These reforms will come into force with rape in certain areas. in April. Mr Cunningham: I welcome that simplification, but Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): The criminal what is the Minister doing to protect vulnerable people investigation into the Hillsborough disaster is still ongoing, from some of the excesses of bailiffs? but a very great number of people undoubtedly suffered, as we saw on last night’s “Newsnight”—I hope the Mr Vara: May I first put on record what a doughty Minister and Secretary of State will watch it if they campaigner the hon. Gentleman has been on this issue? have not already done so—when the survivors told their I very much hope that the proposals that we will be harrowing stories. May I simply ask the Minister to putting in place in April will meet with his approval. We confirm that his Department will make available all are putting in place a governance system that will make support necessary to bring them justice as soon as it absolutely clear when bailiffs—or enforcement agents, possible? as they will be called—can seize goods and when they cannot, as well as how they should deal with vulnerable Damian Green: When the hon. Lady refers to my people. We are also putting in place a fee structure that Department, I should point out that it is the Home is clearly understood and, most importantly, ensuring Office, where I also have a responsibility, that leads on that enforcement agents have mandatory training and Hillsborough. We are absolutely determined to do what receive a certificate. If anyone acts as an enforcement she says through the Independent Police Complaints agent without that certification, they will be committing Commission investigation, which is ongoing, and the a criminal offence. coroner’s action, which is due to start next month. I know the families are very much looking forward to Topical Questions those as a way of getting to the truth. T1. [902363] Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. Shared Services (Tendering) The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice 16. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): (Chris Grayling): This Government are committed to What his policy is on the tendering of shared services; reducing the number of foreign nationals in our prisons. and if he will make a statement. [902389] While Labour was in power, the number of foreign prisoners more than doubled, at great expense to the The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice taxpayer. Since 2010, we have begun to clear up Labour’s (Chris Grayling): As part of the next generation shared mess. We have reversed that rising trend, and we are services programme, the Ministry of Justice is reviewing now looking at every option to send more foreign the options available for the future delivery of our criminals back to serve their sentences in their home shared services. countries. Earlier this month, the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Kenilworth and Southam (Jeremy Wright) travelled to Nigeria to Katy Clark: A foreign multinational that has been sign a compulsory prisoner transfer agreement between awarded hundreds of millions of pounds of Government our two countries, and I congratulate him on doing money to undertake work that was previously carried that. This is a significant achievement for the UK, out in the public sector has admitted to exploring particularly as Nigeria has one of the highest foreign options to offshore that work. Surely the Secretary of national populations in our prisons. The agreement will State accepts that it is the Government’s responsibility be ratified in the coming months, and we expect to see to maximise employment in this country.Will he undertake Nigerian offenders being sent home within a year. to intervene if necessary to prevent that work from being offshored? Mark Pawsey: The Secretary of State is working hard to improve the chances of those who have completed a Chris Grayling: I have a track record of saying that I prison term. Does he agree that locally managed schemes do not believe in offshoring UK jobs, and I will always such as Future Unlocked, which he visited in Rugby last look carefully at any such situation that arises. Whenever year, have a key role to play in achieving that objective? possible, the Government should prevent that from happening. I cannot say that it will never happen, Chris Grayling: I very much enjoyed that visit, and I however, as these are often decisions with a number of pay tribute to the work being done in Rugby. In setting factors behind them, but I am not sympathetic to the out our probation reforms, we have taken steps to offshoring of UK jobs. ensure that smaller organisations not only have the 133 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 134 opportunity to participate in that way but have the and we will do that. We will be starting it soon, and we simplest possible mechanisms to enable them to do so, will have a consultation. We intend to have the results of with transparency of risk in the supply chain, with the review by the end of the year. common contracts to save on bureaucracy and with measures to prevent anyone being used as what is T3. [902365] Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) commonly known as bid candy. We want to guarantee (Lab): The Secretary of State had previously been that supply chains will remain intact—without changes— adamant that no further contracts would be awarded to through our consent. Serco until it had received a clean bill of health from the Serious Fraud Office. Will he therefore explain why Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): Having seen the way in he awarded it a contract for the extension of which the Ministry of Justice has been taken for a ride Thameside prison on 20 December? When is a contract by G4S at Oakwood prison and by ALS in relation to not a contract? the court translator services—both of which contracts were awarded by this Government—will the Secretary Chris Grayling: I can only assume that the hon. of State tell us just how bad a private company running Gentleman was not in the House last June when I made a probation contract will need to be in order to be the original statement about the electronic tagging situation sacked? and said that I had decided, in the interests of justice in this country, to proceed with two extensions at prisons Chris Grayling: Let me tell the House what being run by the two organisations involved. I was completely taken for a ride is. It is what happened under the last clear about it, I explained why at the time and he clearly Government, under the contracts for electronic tagging, was not listening. and we have been dealing with that and clearing up the mess in the past few months. I will take no lessons from T4. [902366] David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Labour Members, who presided over an appalling system Residents in Monmouthshire were recently very of contract management and exposed the taxpayer to concerned when a man convicted of manslaughter considerable risk, leaving behind the mess that we have absconded from Prescoed open prison. Will the had to clear up. They are shocking, they were shocking, Minister ask his officials to look into the risk and I will take no lessons from them. assessments being used before prisoners are transferred to Prescoed to ensure that they are suitably rigorous? Sadiq Khan: The Justice Secretary has been in the job long enough to understand that the way it works is that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice I ask the questions and he answers them. He and the (Jeremy Wright): We expect that the risk assessments in Minister with responsibility for probation claimed that all these cases are rigorous. My hon. Friend is right to the main reason for privatising probation is that the draw attention to this case, and I will, of course, look savings can be used to provide probation services to into it and find out what has happened. those who currently do not receive them as their sentence is less than 12 months. The Justice Secretary has refused T7. [902369] Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland to publish costings and to pilot his plans, and he is South) (Lab): Sunderland’s courts are in urgent need of already two months behind schedule. I will ask him a rebuilding, as the Department has previously simple question, and I hope to get an answer: by what recognised, spending nearly £2 million in preparation. I date will all those on sentences of less than 12 months am grateful for the meeting that took place with the be receiving through-the-gate supervision? Minister, but we have been in limbo on this since 2010. When will a decision be taken? Chris Grayling: We will begin rolling out the part of the reforms set out in the Offender Rehabilitation Bill in Mr Vara: As the hon. Lady acknowledges, we have the latter part of this year. I say to the right hon. had a meeting, and I can assure her that of the 500 buildings Gentleman that he represents a party that was in the court estate encompasses, the ones to which she government for nearly 15 years, during which time tens refers are very much at the forefront. She will appreciate, of thousands of offences were committed by people on however, that we have a large estate and we keep matters short sentences who had no supervision when they left under review, and we will keep her and her colleagues prison. The Labour Government did nothing about it. informed as soon as we are able to do so. We are doing something about it, and it is not before time. T5. [902367] Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): More than half of the prisoners serving indeterminate prison sentences T2. [902364] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): have passed their tariff date. Will the Secretary of State The Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 is one of look at the parole and risk assessment process and the great achievements of this Government but it left a review all cases where prisoners have complied with few issues unresolved, one of which relates to humanist their sentence conditions but significantly exceeded weddings, which are very popular in Scotland but their tariff? currently not allowed here. The Act required the Secretary of State to conduct a review. What progress Jeremy Wright: As my hon. Friend knows, we have has been made on it, so that we can get on with abolished those particular sentences because we do not allowing such weddings to happen? believe they are the best way to deal with such serious offenders. However, that is not a retrospective change, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice and a number of prisoners in the estate are still serving (Mr Shailesh Vara): My hon. Friend is right to say that such sentences. He will also appreciate that the decision the Government made a commitment to have a review, on whether someone is released from such a sentence is 135 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 136 to be taken by the independent Parole Board, not by Jeremy Wright: My hon. Friend will know that, in Ministers. He must also recognise that the tariff is the relation to sentencing options, the courts have a number minimum period to be served in custody, not the maximum. of choices they can make over mental health disposals. None the less, we will do everything we can to ensure On the point he makes about co-ordination, he is right that the process of these sentences is as efficient as it can that the best thing we can do is ensure that people with be. mental illness are diverted away from the criminal justice system as soon as possible. To that end, we have been T10. [902372] Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/ working with the Department of Health on liaison and Co-op): The Secretary of State may recall that some diversion programmes. We are spending a considerable years ago the police used a method called “trawling”, amount of money on that this year and over the next which became discredited, in order to find evidence couple of years. We expect to have full coverage of all about allegations against teachers and social workers. police custody suites and courts in the next three years That destroyed many innocent people’s lives through or so. false allegations of abuse. I understand that Operation Pallial is using trawling again, and many other Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Given the hard-working social workers and educationists are continuing high level of tribunals overturning Department being put in limbo and having their lives ruined. for Work and Pensions decisions, particularly in employment support allowance cases, why did the The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims Department offer up to the Deregulation Bill a provision (Damian Green): I will happily discuss that issue with that would take away the duty on the Senior President the National Crime Agency, which is in overall charge of Tribunals to report on the standard of decision of that area, and will write to the hon. Gentleman with making? Surely reporting on that might lead to better the results of my investigation. decisions being made in the first place.

T6. [902368] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Does the Mr Vara: The hon. Lady will be aware that the Secretary of State agree that prisoners released on Ministry of Justice, Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals licence who reoffend or breach the terms of their Service and the Department for Work and Pensions licence should serve the remaining part of their original have been working very closely to ensure that decisions sentence in prison in full? If he agrees, what is he doing by tribunals on social security and child support matters to ensure that that always happens? If he does not are passed on to the DWP. That is happening and, as a agree, why not? consequence, DWP decisions are being influenced and its decision-making guidelines have been changed. Chris Grayling: As my hon. Friend knows, I have a lot of sympathy with him on these matters in areas such as breach of licence and automatic early release. For resource T9. [902371] Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) reasons, I cannot do everything that he would like me to (Con): My right hon. Friend the Minister of State do, but when he reads the Bill that is due to be laid knows my interest and that of other colleagues in the before this House tomorrow, he will find things in it that reform of the criminal law of child neglect. Will he are at least a step in the right direction. update the House on the progress he is making with regard to reviewing that particular provision of the John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): There Children and Young Persons Act 2008? are 33 firms doing legal aid-backed criminal work in South Yorkshire, but only one in four or five will get Damian Green: My hon. Friend is correct that this is duty contracts in the future, which means less competition, an important area in which I have had fruitful discussions less choice and less access to justice. Surely what we are with Action for Children about the best way to make seeing is the slow, lingering death of legal aid at the progress, and I hope to be able to report further on hands of the Justice Secretary. those discussions shortly.

Chris Grayling: The argument for consolidation in Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): Why is the legal aid world goes back well before the last election the Legal Aid Agency expanding the Public Defender to reviews carried out, and arguments made, by the Service and recruiting barristers when reports from as previous Government. Our current reform proposals far back as 2007 have found that it is between 40% and allow those firms to retain own-client work, which is 90% more expensive than the independent professions? what they argued for. What we are setting out around Furthermore, it cannot act in cases of conflict. duty work is designed to ensure that, in tough times, we can guarantee that everyone arrested and taken to a police cell will always have access to legal advice. Chris Grayling: The Public Defender Service was, of course, set up by the previous Labour Government, and it is always important to ensure that it is staffed properly. T8. [902370] James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): I welcome the Government’s transforming rehabilitation programme to cut reoffending, but will Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): The Secretary the Secretary of State reassure me that those suffering of State will recollect the prisoner deportation shambles from mental health problems, both inside and outside of 2006, when huge numbers of foreign prisoners were prison, will also get the help they need? Will he outline allowed to stay in the country on release simply because what steps or initiatives his Department is taking, in of administrative incompetence. Will he assure me that conjunction with the Department of Health, on the foreign prisoners who should be considered for deportation matter? are now properly being so considered? 137 Oral Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Oral Answers 138

Jeremy Wright: My hon. Friend will know that that is Office review of the papers that are held and, secondly, primarily a matter for the Home Office, but none the a court reconsideration is in process. As a Government, less I can assure him that those of us who work in the we are ensuring that we increase transparency wherever Ministry of Justice and the Home Office do everything possible but there will always be some papers that must we can to ensure that foreign national offenders are be withheld on the basis of national security. deported as soon as they can be. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): How many Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): foreign national offenders are there in our jails, how The House will be disturbed to learn today that since does the figure compare to last time and when does the the CPS guidance on rape was amended in 2011 the Minister expect the first Nigerian to be sent back? number of people charged with rape over that period has fallen by 14%. There is concern that cases are being Jeremy Wright: Once again, I was ready for this one. dismissed that could be successfully prosecuted. What There are currently 10,692 foreign national offenders, will the Secretary of State do to ensure that the CPS has and when I last reported to my hon. Friend the figure the appropriate resources to ensure that no victim of was 10,789. The figures are heading in the right direction— rape in this country is let down?

Damian Green: I am sure that the hon. Lady heard Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): They have the answer I gave a few moments ago about the action gone up. we are taking with the Director of Public Prosecutions, police and crime commissioners and chief constables to Jeremy Wright: No, they have gone down. Let me look beneath the detail of that and ensure that all correct the hon. Gentleman, whose mathematics is faulty. proper cases are referred. I am happy that the facts Last time, the figure was 10,789 and this time it is do not bear out her accusation that this is anything to 10,692. I hope that is clear. do with resources, as in nine police areas the number of On Nigeria, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of referrals has gone up over the two years since the new State has said, we will make every effort in conjunction guidelines came in. with our colleagues in Nigeria to remove Nigerians by the end of the year. Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): The maximum sentence for causing death when driving disqualified, Mr Speaker: That is obviously the Wright effect, or uninsured and drunk is only two years and because of the Hollobone effect, or possibly a virtuous combination the rules of custodial sentences, the actual sentence of the two. Who knows? I will leave the House to muse served is only eight months. Does my hon. Friend agree on the matter. that that only increases the sense of injustice felt by my constituent Mandy Stock, whose husband was killed in Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): that way in Tredworth, Gloucester? One of the many excellent things the Secretary of State inherited from the previous Labour Government was Jeremy Wright: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the an outstanding Probation Service in County Durham, advocacy he has engaged in on behalf of the Stock which is now at risk from the Government’s privatisation. family. He will recall that we discussed the points he Will he now pay attention to the many issues raised in makes in the debate last Monday and I am happy to the Select Committee on Justice’s report of 22 January, repeat what I said to him then, which is that the Government and scrap that botched privatisation? are considering carefully all that was said in the course of the debate and whether the sentencing is right for such offences. As he knows, we have particular sympathy Chris Grayling: I do not recall the Justice Committee for his points about those who cause death while asking us to scrap our plans. Although good work is disqualified. being done around the country by probation officers, we cannot go on with this situation in which Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): On 23 January, the 50,000 offenders are released from prison every year House of Commons voted 120 to three to release papers and left with no supervision on our streets, so that tens relating to the Shrewsbury 24. What is the Government’s of thousands of crimes are committed, with victims response to that vote in the Commons? around the country. We cannot go on in that way.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Several hon. Members rose— Hughes): As the right hon. Gentleman will remember, as he was in the Chamber for the debate, two things Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry to disappoint remaining are happening. First, next year there will be a Cabinet colleagues, but we must move on. 139 4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 140

Sri Harmandir Sahib in the destroyed files were also in other departmental files. Taken together, those files provide a consistent picture of what happened. 12.34 pm The Cabinet Secretary’s investigation is now complete. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Copies of the report have been placed in the Libraries Affairs (Mr William Hague): With permission, Mr Speaker, of both Houses, and it is now being published on the I wish to make a statement on the Cabinet Secretary’s Government website. The report includes the publication report on the Indian operation at Sri Harmandir Sahib— of the relevant sections of five extra documents that also called the Golden Temple—in Amritsar in June shed light on the period but would not normally have 1984. been published. We have taken that step because the The House will recall that on 13 January concerns whole investigation has been based on a commitment to were raised regarding two documents released to the the maximum possible transparency. We want to be as public in the National Archives. The documents relate open as possible with the British public, in so far as that to the painful events that followed the occupation of the does not undermine the principle, upheld by successive temple site by Sikh dissidents in December 1983, which British Governments, of not revealing any information led to a six-month stand-off with the Indian authorities. relating to intelligence or special forces. In June 1984, a three-day military operation by Indian The main findings of the report are as follows. First, forces known as Operation Blue Star took place. Official on why the UK provided advice to the Indian Government, Indian Government figures estimate that 575 people the Cabinet Secretary has established that in early February died. Other reports suggest that as many as 3,000 were 1984 the then Government received an urgent request killed, including pilgrims caught in the crossfire. to provide operational advice on Indian contingency That loss of life was an utter tragedy. Understandably, plans for action to regain control of the temple complex. members of the Sikh community around the world still The British high commission in India recommended feel the pain and suffering caused by those events. that the Government respond positively to the request Given that, we fully understand the concerns raised by for bilateral assistance from a country with which we the two documents. They indicate that in February had an important relationship. That advice was accepted 1984, in the early stages of the crisis, the then British by the then Government. Government sent a military officer to give advice to the Secondly, the Cabinet Secretary then examined the Indian Government on their contingency planning. Many nature of the advice that was provided to India following in this House and across the whole country rightly that decision. He has established that a single British wished to know what connection, if any, there had been military adviser travelled to India between 8 and between that giving of advice and the tragic events at 17 February 1984 to advise the Indian intelligence services Amritsar over three months later. and special group on contingency plans that they were Within hours of the documents coming to light, the drawing up for operations against armed dissidents in Prime Minister instructed the Cabinet Secretary to carry the temple complex, including ground reconnaissance out an urgent investigation in four critical areas: why of the site. The adviser’s assessment made it clear that a advice was provided to the Indian authorities; what the military operation should be put into effect only as a nature of that advice was; what impact it had on Operation last resort when all attempts at negotiation had failed. It Blue Star; and whether Parliament was misled. The recommended including in any operation an element of Cabinet Secretary was not asked to investigate Operation surprise and the use of helicopter-borne forces in the Blue Star itself, or the actions of the Indian Government, interests of reducing casualties and bringing about a or other events relating to the Sikh community in India. swift resolution. Although he has investigated those specific matters, I This giving of military advice was not repeated. The can make it clear that during his investigation no documents show that the decision to provide advice was circumstantial evidence has been offered, or has surfaced, based on an explicit recommendation to Ministers that of UK involvement in any subsequent military operations the Government should not contemplate assistance beyond in the Punjab. the visit of the military adviser, and this was reflected in The investigation has been rigorous and thorough. his instructions. The Cabinet Secretary found no evidence The Cabinet Secretary and officials have met Sikh in the files or from discussions with officials involved organisations to ensure that their concerns informed that any other form of UK military assistance, such as the investigation. They have spoken with individuals equipment or training, was given to the Indian authorities. associated with the two documents, although some The Cabinet Secretary’s report therefore concludes that officials are now deceased. They have examined Hansard the nature of the UK’s assistance was purely advisory, records from 1984 to the present day. They have carried limited, and provided to the Indian Government at an out an extensive and thorough search of the files held early stage in their planning. by all relevant Departments and agencies from December Thirdly, the report examines what actual impact UK 1983 to June 1984. Their search through some 200 files advice had on the Indian operation, which took place and over 23,000 documents found a very limited number between 5 and 7 June 1984, over three months later. The of documents relating to Operation Blue Star. report establishes that during that time the planning by The report notes that some military files covering the Indian authorities had changed significantly. The various operations were destroyed in November 2009, number of dissident forces was considerably larger by as part of a routine process undertaken by the Ministry that time, and the fortifications inside the site were more of Defence at the 25-year review point. They included extensive. The documents also record information provided one file on the provision of military advice to the Indian by the Indian intelligence co-ordinator stating that after authorities on their contingency plans for Sri Harmandir the UK military adviser’s visit in February, the Indian Sahib. However, copies of at least some of the documents army took over lead responsibility for the operation, 141 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 142 and the main concept behind the operation changed. Governments have had—with the British Sikh community, The Cabinet Secretary’s report includes an analysis by which plays such a positive role in so many areas of our current military staff of the extent to which the actual national life. operation in June 1984 differed from the approach We are also determined to look at the wider issues recommended in February by the UK military adviser. raised by these events with regard to the management Operation Blue Star was a ground assault without the and release of information held by Government. Under element of surprise and without a helicopter-borne the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, element. The Cabinet Secretary’s report therefore concludes the 30-year rule has been superseded by a 20-year rule, that the UK military officer’s advice had limited impact so that from 2022 all annual releases will be after on Operation Blue Star. 20 years. However, it is not clear at the moment that this This is consistent with the public statement on 15 January change is being approached in a uniform fashion by all 2014 by the operation commander, Lieutenant-General Departments. The Prime Minister has therefore decided Brar, who said that to commission a review to establish the position across Government on the annual release of papers and the “no one helped us in our planning or in the execution of the ability and readiness of Departments to meet the planning”. requirements of moving from a 30 to 20-year rule, It is also consistent with an exchange of letters between including the processes for withholding information. Mrs Gandhi and Mrs Thatcher on 14 and 29 June 1984 This review will be carried out by the Prime Minister’s discussing the operation, which made no reference to independent adviser on ministerial standards, Sir Alex any UK assistance. The parts of the letter relevant to Allan. Operation Blue Star are published with the Cabinet Nothing can undo the loss of life and suffering Secretary’s report today. caused by the tragic events at Sri Harmandir Sahib. It is The Cabinet Secretary has also examined two other quite right that the concerns that were raised about UK concerns raised in this House and by the Sikh involvement have been investigated. It is a strength of community—namely, that Parliament may have been our democracy that we are always prepared to take an misled or that the decision to provide advice may have unflinching look at the past. I hope, however, that this been linked to UK commercial interests. The report investigation and the open manner in which it has been finds no evidence to substantiate either of these allegations. conducted will provide reassurance to the Sikh community, The investigation did not find any evidence in the files this House and the public and, in that spirit, I present it or from officials of the provision of UK military advice to the House. being linked to potential defence or helicopter sales, or to any other policy or commercial issue. There is no evidence that the UK, at any level, attempted to use the 12.46 pm fact that military advice had been given on request to Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire advance any commercial objective. The only UK request South) (Lab): May I thank the Foreign Secretary for his of the Indian Government made following the visit was statement and for advance sight of it this morning? for prior warning of any actual operation so that UK authorities could make appropriate security arrangements May I also take this opportunity to thank colleagues in London. In the event, the UK received no warning who have campaigned to help uncover the truth about from the Indian authorities before the operation was the tragic events of 1984? I pay particular tribute to my launched. right hon. Friends the Members for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) and for Warley (Mr Spellar) The Cabinet Secretary also concludes that there is no and my hon. Friends the Members for West Bromwich evidence of Parliament being misled. There is no record East (Mr Watson) and for Wolverhampton North East of a specific question to Ministers about practical UK (Emma Reynolds). They have done important work on support for Operation Blue Star, and he concludes that behalf of many of their constituents, and it is only right the one instance of a written question to Ministers that this House offers them its collective thanks for related to discussions with the Indian Government on their determined efforts. behalf of the Sikh community after the operation. As the Foreign Secretary has made clear, the 1984 In sum, the Cabinet Secretary’s report finds that the raid on the Golden Temple complex—code-named nature of the UK’s assistance was purely advisory, Operation Blue Star—resulted in hundreds of deaths, limited and provided to the Indian Government at an devastating damage to the temple itself and rising levels early stage; that it had limited impact on the tragic of sectarian violence, which ultimately saw the assassination events that unfolded at the temple three months later; of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi later that year. that there was no link between the provision of that I welcome what light the report sheds on the British advice and defence sales; and that there is no record of Government’s alleged involvement in those events and the Government receiving advance notice of the operation. the fact that some of the key documents relating to the None the less, we are keen to discuss concerns raised event in question, and the British Government’s alleged by the Sikh community. The Minister responsible for involvement, have now been published. relations with India, the Minister of State, Foreign and Serious questions continue to be asked, however, Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member about the involvement, conduct and contribution of the for East Devon (Mr Swire), and my noble Friend Baroness British authorities at the time—going up to the highest Warsi, the Minister for faiths and communities, will level—in the events that surrounded the storming of the discuss them with Sikh organisations when they meet Golden Temple and that ultimately cost so many innocent them later today. This reflects the strong, positive lives. In the light of that, I would like to ask the Foreign relationship the Government have—and all British Secretary the following questions. 143 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 144

[Mr Douglas Alexander] A few moments ago, the Foreign Secretary spoke about the exchange of correspondence between Prime First, I regret that the Government have so far refused Minister Gandhi and Prime Minister Thatcher, yet only to accept our call that all relevant documentation relating Prime Minister Gandhi’s letter appears to have been to the incident that can be should now be made public. I published today. Will he undertake to publish the response welcome the publication of five further documents as of Prime Minister Thatcher? part of today’s report, but, given that the report itself Everyone in this House is aware of the continuing cites “officials interviewed” over the course of this pain felt by the Sikh community around the world at investigation, will the Foreign Secretary now commit to the events of 1984—not just at the storming of the publishing a list of those officials, and will he confirm Golden Temple in Amritsar and the deaths and destruction whether any surviving Ministers who served at the time that followed, but at the anti-Sikh violence that followed were interviewed as part of the investigation? Will he the assassination of Prime Minister Gandhi, and the also confirm whether these testimonies will be made emergency period that saw arbitrary arrests, and accusations public? of torture, rape and disappearances that are still unresolved Secondly, on the terms of this investigation led by the today. Cabinet Secretary, I welcome the fact that, following Although there are of course differences within the representations by the Sikh community, the Cabinet Sikh community on the issue of a separate Sikh state, Secretary published a letter detailing the scope of the there is unanimity in their horror at those events. For inquiry. Will the Foreign Secretary explain, however, British Sikhs over recent weeks, there has been the why there was a more than three-week delay in publishing additional burden of worry that their own Government those terms of reference? Will he further explain whether may have been involved in those actions. The Government the terms of the inquiry changed over the course of the therefore have a responsibility—indeed, a duty—to address inquiry? those very widespread concerns and fears. If they can The terms of reference, as published in a letter from provide answers to all those concerns and questions, we the Cabinet Secretary on 1 February, did not include as the Opposition will support them in that endeavour. specific reference to the time period covered by the investigation, yet the final report sets out a time frame Mr Hague: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman of December 1983 to June 1984. Will the Foreign for his questions. He is right to draw attention to the Secretary explain why that time frame was not made efforts of several of our colleagues, on these and other public at an earlier stage? issues, always to find out the truth about events in the Many have already expressed regret that the investigation past as well as in our own times. My hon. Friend the seemed to be covering only the first part of 1984, given Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) the significance of events in the weeks and months after is another example. June 1984 and their direct link to the storming of the The right hon. Gentleman is quite right to refer to the Golden Temple. anxiety about these events that many people have expressed Will the Government therefore task the Cabinet Secretary during recent weeks. That is why we should do everything with setting out whether he believes that there might be we possibly can to set out the truth of the matter, in so grounds for a full inquiry covering a longer period? far as that can be discovered from documents and from Turning to the substance of the findings, the report discussions with officials. Taking what I said earlier as a states that the UK military adviser in India from 8 to whole, I think that the story is a reassuring one for the 17 February 1984 advised the Indian Government that House, the public and the Sikh community. “this type of operation should only be put into effect as a last The right hon. Gentleman asked certain specific questions resort when all other courses of negotiation had failed”. about the process. He asked whether we would publish Based on the documents that he has seen, but for a list of officials. No, I do not think that that would be understandable reasons may not be able to publish, will appropriate. It is important to protect the anonymity of the Foreign Secretary set out what type of operation some of the officials and military personnel involved. was referred to in that case? He asked whether Ministers have been spoken to. Yes, the Cabinet Secretary’s investigation included discussions The report also sets out that a “quick analysis” by with the senior Ministers of the time. He asked whether current UK military staff confirms that there were the terms of the inquiry changed. No, they did not differences between the June operation and the advice change, except that the Cabinet Secretary’s work was from the UK military officer in February. Will the expanded to cover some additional concerns that were Foreign Secretary explain the nature of the quick analysis raised during the past few weeks—we may come to undertaken on such a central part of the investigation? some of them later during questions—but the terms of Does he expect a fuller review of that aspect of the the inquiry remained the same. evidence to be conducted? There is no mystery about the dates. At the beginning, The report touches on the allegations that the potential the Prime Minister asked the Cabinet Secretary to sale of Westland helicopters was linked to the provision investigate the specific events—whether there had been of military advice. It claims that no evidence was found UK involvement in the specific events leading up to and to substantiate that allegation, but none of the annexed during Operation Blue Star in June 1984—and the time documentation so far released pertains to that issue. frame was therefore from the start of what happened at The report cites the location in question in December 1983 to the Indian “ongoing contacts between UK and Indian officials around the operation in June 1984. As the right hon. Gentleman time of Operation Blue Star on potential defence related sales”. will have gathered from my statement, the Cabinet Will the Foreign Secretary commit to publish this Secretary was able to go beyond that to say that in the correspondence? 23,000 documents he has seen no circumstantial evidence 145 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 146 of British involvement in any subsequent military operation the process of being able to move on from these terrible in the Punjab. One of the questions raised is whether events and to encourage people to live and work together there could have been British military involvement in successfully. subsequent Operations Black Thunder I and II. From I will certainly look at my hon. Friend’s point about everything that the Cabinet Secretary has seen, having the release of documents. That is one of the issues that examined hundreds of files—200 files—the answer to the review on the release of documents can cover, thatisno. because questions arise over when documents should be The relevant documents—those that can be published withheld and how the 30-year rule, which is to become while, as I have said, upholding the publication principles the 20-year rule, is implemented. Those are fair questions that all British Government have always observed—that that can be looked at in Sir Alex Allan’s review. We all relate specifically to Operation Blue Star have been want to ensure that the same reassuring transparency published. There will of course be publication over the evident in the Cabinet Secretary’s report continues as coming years of many more documents concerning further documents are released in future years. British relations with India at the time. I certainly do not want to suggest that no more documents will be Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): I must published that can shed light on relations between take issue with the Foreign Secretary’s conclusions. In Britain and India through the 1980s. As I understand it, 1984, the Commons was told that a march to commemorate the 30-year rule—it will become the 20-year rule—is the thousands of massacred Sikhs was cancelled on implemented on the basis of 30 years from files coming public order grounds, but newly revealed Cabinet minutes to an end, but such files contain documents from earlier show the real reason. They state: years. Therefore, other documents will of course be “In view of the importance of the British political and commercial published about this period. However, the relevant files interests at stake, it would be necessary to explore every possibility have all been searched, and these are the documents of preventing the march from taking place. Export contracts that shed light on Blue Star. worth £5 billion could be at stake.” The right hon. Gentleman asked about the quick In the year in which we will commemorate the loss of analysis by the military. I do not think that the word 80,000 Sikhs in the 1914-18 war, is it not the least we “quick” should be used in a pejorative sense. The report can do to apologise to the Sikhs who were misled in has been quite quick, given that concerns arose only a 1984? few weeks ago, and military experts have provided an analysis, but it is clear even to a layman that the military Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman should be clear operation mounted was very different from any that about what the Cabinet Secretary is saying in this was discussed in the documents. As I mentioned earlier, report, because he is making a different point about it was entirely different: it did not have the element of different events. surprise; there were no helicopter-borne forces; and it was conducted by the Indian army, not by the paramilitary Mr Watson: I’m not. forces present when the UK military adviser was there in February. Even to the non-expert on such matters, Mr Hague: By definition, he is. Let me explain. What the military operation mounted in June was clearly the Cabinet Secretary is saying in his report is that there fundamentally different from any discussed in February is no evidence in the files that the provision of UK 1984. military advice in February 1984 was linked to defence sales or any other policy issue. Overall, I therefore think that this report has the right degree—a strong degree—of transparency, and is a thorough and good job by the Cabinet Secretary, and Mr Watson: Did you look at the Cabinet minutes? we should be prepared to support it as such. Mr Hague: I can only explain the facts as they have been presented by the Cabinet Secretary. The evidence Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I from the 23,000 documents is that there was no such thank my right hon. Friend for his swiftness in making link. The Cabinet Secretary is not saying that such a statement in the House. Most importantly, it is right matters were not of importance in wider relations or to recognise that British involvement was not in any other matters of policy between India and the UK. He shape or form malicious, and particularly to recognise is saying that on this issue, that is what the documents the line that the military option was going to be used show. We all have to work from what the documents only as a last resort. show. None of us can change what happened yesterday, but we can change today and tomorrow. If documents Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Given the distress cannot be released to the general public, will my right that is felt by the Sikh community and its desire for hon. Friend take the unusual step of making sure that clarity on the events at Sri Harmandir Sahib, it is they are released to the widest possible audience, but obviously very regrettable that a key file was destroyed within a proper environment? In addition, will he work in 2009. Will the Foreign Secretary tell the House at with fellow parliamentarians, Sikh organisations and what level oversight would have been exercised or permission the Indian high commission to start a process of truth given for the destruction of that file? Do we need to and reconciliation so that, after 30 years, victims and review the procedures to ensure that such sensitive and families can finally start to feel a sense of justice? important material is not destroyed in future?

Mr Hague: I fully accept my hon. Friend’s points. It is Mr Hague: That is an important point and the review important, in doing everything we can to establish the by Sir Alex Allan that I have just announced will be able truth when controversies such as this arise, to help in to cover it. Such decisions are made at official level and 147 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 148

[Mr Hague] legitimate demand for past events to be investigated, we should investigate them in exactly the way that we have go on all the time under all Governments. They are not on this occasion. made on any political basis or conducted by Ministers. The implementation of the 30-year rule and, as in this Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): case, the reviewing of documents by the Ministry of The Foreign Secretary is right to describe the loss of life Defence at the 25-year point are continuous official in 1984 as an utter tragedy. My constituents and the processes. Judgments have to be made all the time about constituents of other hon. Members have raised their what is released and, as in this case, what is destroyed. concerns and shared their personal stories of family We can all question that particular judgment in retrospect. members who were affected. Understandably, this will The review that has been established must consider such not be the end of the matter. My constituents will want issues so that we can all be satisfied that important files to have time to study the report, to be able to raise will not be destroyed in future. questions and to reach what other Members have described as closure on this terribly tragic matter. Will the Foreign Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): This issue has Secretary commit to ongoing dialogue and meetings caused great sadness to the Sikh community in Scotland, with representatives of the Sikh community so that across the UK and across the world. That community people feel that their needs and questions have been enriches our economy, our culture and our society, and heard? the very least that it deserves from this process is closure. It will never overcome the sadness or get those Mr Hague: The hon. Lady is quite right. She is right lives back. Sadly, I do not think that today’s report gives to say that people will want to read the report. It was it the closure that it needs. I urge the Foreign Secretary only published to the public as I began my statement. I to have a further investigation that looks into the full hope that it is widely read and discussed. She is also communications that took place between the UK right to say that the process of dialogue and understanding Government and the Indian Government in the lead-up should go on. That will happen this afternoon as the to the storming of the temple and during the events that Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, followed. my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), holds meetings. We are all happy to carry Mr Hague: I emphasise to the hon. Gentleman the on that process in the Foreign Office, as are those in extent and thoroughness of what the Cabinet Secretary other Departments. My noble Friend Baroness Warsi, has done. Twenty-three thousand documents is not a who is the Minister for faith and communities, will be small number, even by Government standards, and involved in such meetings. That process of discussion, 200 files is not a small number. The investigation has which may help to bring closure, will certainly go on. been conducted by the Cabinet Secretary, not by me or any other Minister. Having read the report, I have no reason to think that it is not a very thorough piece of Mr Speaker: I call Sir Edward Leigh. work. I think that it helps all of us, including people in the Sikh community, whom the hon. Gentleman was Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): I was not quite right to speak about in the terms that he did, to actually standing, Mr Speaker, but if you want me to, I understand the events and to see them in their true will ask one very short question. Why were we consulted light. As I said earlier, I hope that it will be of some in the first place—why us? reassurance to the Sikh community, the House and the wider public. Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman was certainly standing at one point because he is on my list. Anyway, he is the Sir Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): Given the most dextrous of fellows and is always capable of strong and deep links between the Sikh community in adjusting, as he has just proved. my constituency and India, does the Foreign Secretary agree that the reaction of Sikhs in Britain on the publication Mr Hague: My hon. Friend has managed to ask an of the documents not so long ago was entirely interesting question, even though he was not expecting understandable? He mentioned the possibility that further to. It is not obvious from the documents why we were documents that reflect back on the period in question consulted. We can all guess why it was. In facing this will come to light in due course. Will he use his best situation, India wanted expertise from the rest of the efforts to ensure that similar surprises are eliminated or world. British expertise in tackling difficult security at least mitigated to prevent such an understandable situations was renowned at that time, as it is today. reaction happening unnecessarily in future? British advice was therefore asked for. I think that that is the simple explanation. Mr Hague: I absolutely agree with my hon. and learned Friend that people were right to feel very concerned and anxious when they heard about this matter last Mr Speaker: I do not want to dispute the word of the month. I do not think that we can avoid all surprises on hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh). all issues when Government documents are published. Perhaps he was just having a therapeutic stretch. We want such documents to be published. In fact, we want them to be published faster. This Government Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab): As a have brought in the 20-year rule. There will be surprises Punjabi, having been born and brought up there and on other issues, no matter which Government or party having studied in institutions run by the Sikh community was in power. We cannot screen them out. When issues back in Punjab, I fully understand the feelings and are raised that cause great concern and when there is a sentiments that exist. As my hon. Friend the Member 149 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 150 for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) asked, will the point, of any British involvement in subsequent military Foreign Secretary commit to investigating further the operations in the Punjab. That goes beyond June 1984. points that he raised in his statement? It is also clear in the letter from Mrs Gandhi that there is no reference, for instance, to thanking the UK for any Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman understands well participation, support or advice. From everything that that the statement and the Cabinet Secretary’s report we have seen, and having read the report, I do not think are about specific events. There are many other aspects there would be much to add to what the Cabinet Secretary of relations between the UK and India—many positive has already said. ones, and sometimes controversial ones. Whenever there is something that we feel should be investigated we must Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): May be prepared to do so, but I have not seen, and the I add to the answer to the spontaneous question asked Cabinet Secretary has not turned up in producing the by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir report, other circumstantial evidence that we think requires Edward Leigh)? It is difficult for the present generation such investigation. Of course, we do not know what to realise how close our relationships with India still evidence will ever be turned up in future, so we cannot were at that time. My father and grandfather were both rule out all investigations for the future. born in India, and I knew Indira Gandhi very well. I visited her a fortnight before she was assassinated at her Sir Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): It is home, after the Golden Temple disaster, and asked her important to put issues such as this in context. The whether she was wise to be surrounded by the Sikh incident was in 1984, just three years after the Iranian bodyguard, who looked magnificent in their uniforms. embassy siege, which the UK’s security forces dealt with She said that they were absolutely loyal to her, that successfully. Does the Foreign Secretary agree—this some of them had served her father, and that if she were may answer the question asked by my hon. Friend the to get rid of them it would be regarded throughout Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh)—that India as an insult to the other Sikhs. There was nothing given the expertise in handling such situations that had sinister at all about Britain, and many Brits at various been developed at the time, a request for help in the levels, being asked for advice during that terrible period. circumstances was completely understandable? Mr Hague: There was a remarkable prescience in my Mr Hague: My right hon. Friend has answered the right hon. Friend’s questions to Mrs Gandhi at that spontaneous question that my hon. Friend the Member time. As always, we are not in the least bit surprised to for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) asked. I am glad find that he knew her, and indeed knew several generations that this discussion is going on in the House without the of the Gandhi family. He is right to put the matter in need for me to intervene in it. that historical context. The requests for British advice, My right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South however they were then responded to, should be seen in (Sir Richard Ottaway) is right. The Iranian embassy that light. siege had taken place a few years earlier, and it was known across the world that British forces were skilled John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The in conducting operations with minimal loss of life. That Foreign Secretary spoke of reassurance. I do not believe is always the spirit in which they give advice, and from that members of the Sikh community in my area will be everything we can see, that was the spirit on that occasion, reassured by the fact that a UK Government were although it is not for us to defend or promote the willing to provide any military support to desecrate the decisions made 30 years ago. He is almost certainly most holy place on this earth, or by the fact that there correct. was no semblance of an apology today. Nor do I believe they will be reassured by files going missing, or by the Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): The Foreign Secretary fact that this was an internal inquiry. May I urge him to said that there was no evidence of Parliament being move swiftly for a full public and independent inquiry? misled. As he is aware, my predecessor as MP for Slough was told by a Foreign Office Minister on 30 July Mr Hague: No, and I think the facts have been set out 1984: clearly by the Cabinet Secretary, a respected official and “As this is an internal Indian matter, we have not sought to the most senior civil servant in the country, who has discuss it with the Indian Government.” —[Official Report,30July served Governments of all parties in a non-partisan 1984; Vol. 65, c. 111W.] way. These are sensitive matters, and everyone should The rest of the paragraph answering my predecessor’s be careful about how they phrase things. To say that the question was simply a description of the nature of that UK gave military support to desecrate the temple is question. The Foreign Secretary has informed us that obviously a wild distortion of events, and the hon. the Cabinet Secretary did not examine papers from Gentleman should regret that. after 5 June, so it would seem impossible to know from his inquiry whether there had been discussions with the Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): Unlike the Indian Government by 30 July. Will the Foreign Secretary hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), agree to examine whether there were discussions with may I thank my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary the Indian Government after 6 June, at a time when for his statement and welcome the reassurance that it killings were continuing? gives the UK Sikh community about these events? However, many Sikhs in my constituency not only have Mr Hague: There are several parts to the answer to questions about Operation Blue Star but have wider that question. First, the Cabinet Secretary has said that questions about what happened in India in 1984. Most there is no evidence in the documents, even after that of the answers will lie in India, but will he commit to a 151 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 152

[Mr Rob Wilson] that will also command cross-party consensus. Let us hope that Members across the House will always approach full disclosure of any information that the Government the issue in that spirit. hold about the custody, interrogation, torture, disappearance and murder of thousands of Sikhs during that period? Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): The core fact exposed by the release of documents a few Mr Hague: My hon. Friend draws attention to wider weeks ago and in the Foreign Secretary’s statement events, which others have also referred to, which caused today is that advice was given by this country in the enormous distress to the Sikh community and in which run-up to an attack on the holiest place in Sikhism. many people suffered. It is entirely understandable that Given that fact, and given the tremendous pain and people should raise those events, although they were grief over the broader events of 1984 in India, does the predominantly within India and we are not able to Foreign Secretary understand that there will be calls in inquire into the Indian Government’s actions. The the community for an apology or gesture of reconciliation investigation is about any question of UK involvement from the Government, and will he give the House his in one particular set of events. As I mentioned earlier, response to those calls? What can the Government do over the next few years more Government documents internationally to get to the full truth of this matter, will be released. The Cabinet Secretary has examined because the British Sikh community feels that that full the ones relating to the specific events in question, but truth has never been told? other documents about relations between the UK and India will be released, and we will of course ensure that they are released promptly and transparently. Mr Hague: There are several parts to the right hon. Gentleman’s question. I think the report should be Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): The Sikh community acknowledged, even by those who criticise it, as a big in Leicester has expressed to me and my hon. Friend the step in establishing the truth about many matters. It is Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth), who clear and covers many documents, and is a thorough unfortunately cannot be here today, its deep concerns piece of work by the Cabinet Secretary. It is important about the attack on the Golden Temple and the wider for us to support all processes of reconciliation, and to events of 1984. Is the Foreign Secretary confident that do so through the dialogue with the Sikh community all the documents have been properly investigated and which I am sure the Government will continue, as, I that the Government are publishing as many of them as hope, will all political parties in this country. When it possible? In this day and age, when trust in politicians comes to judging these past events for ourselves, if I or and institutions is so low, I believe people want to judge any of us thought that this country had at any time for themselves. materially contributed to unnecessary loss of life, it would be something that we should say was a mistake, Mr Hague: That is a very good point and a fair for which the country should apologise. That case cannot question. This investigation is not by Ministers but has be made for these documents, however, and we must been presented by the Cabinet Secretary to the Prime respect what they say. Minister, and we should have confidence in that. It has involved going through a huge number of documents, Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I and the publication of additional documents that would congratulate my right hon. Friend on his statement. It is not normally be released, and those things should be a wounding time for many of my constituents, who have helpful in providing the necessary assurances to people. contacted me, and I appreciate the candour that he has On top of that, as I announced in my statement, there displayed at the Dispatch Box today. Together, I am will be a review of how we release documents, to ensure sure, with many other hon. Members, I would like to that all Departments are living up to their responsibilities gather these now public documents and get them back and doing so in a uniform way, and that includes to our constituents so that they may see for themselves. looking at the processes for withholding information. I I congratulate the whole team on putting this package hope that all that, and the fact that we are moving from together. It will help calm matters down. a 30-year rule to a 20-year rule, will fortify or produce some public confidence in the transparency of the processes. Mr Hague: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and as I Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): The events of said earlier, I hope people will read the report and 1984 were tragic and still impact on the lives of many documents, and see for themselves that the Government Sikh families in my constituency. Does the Foreign are being as transparent as possible about this matter Secretary agree that it would be a disservice to the and that there is information for people to read and victims and their families if some Members of Her digest. Majesty’s loyal Opposition made this a party political issue, rather than a pursuit of truth, transparency and Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I thank closure for those families? the Foreign Secretary for his statement. While accepting that nothing we can say or do can undo the tragic loss Mr Hague: Of course I agree with that, but I am not of life and hurt felt within the Sikh community—we in accusing anybody in the House of doing anything other Northern Ireland know about such things over 30 years—is than seeking the truth about these matters, and it is the Foreign Secretary certain that the Cabinet Secretary’s important we do that across parties. Procedures for the report and examination of all issues surrounding the release of documents have been established across parties Indian operation has been thorough, rigorous and factually and different Governments over a long period of time, correct, and that there has not been, nor will there be, and I hope that if we improve and change those procedures, any cover up of the facts? 153 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 154

Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that British Sikhs, of a search for justice and truth about the nothing any of us can do or say makes up for what so atrocities in 1984. In the consultation his colleagues will many people experienced during those events, and we undertake with Sikh organisations and others, will my must understand that. It is important that we set out right hon. Friend assure me that he will listen to the what happened as we understand it as clearly and wider issues and that he will go beyond the national transparently as possible, and I can give a clear yes to organisations to listen to local organisations, too? the whole of his question. Mr Hague: Yes, absolutely. It must be part of our Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): As a former discussions to be open to discussing these wider issues. Army officer who represents a constituency with a large Every opportunity should be taken to discuss matters number of Sikhs, I thank the Foreign Secretary and the with local groups, too. As Ministers travel around the Prime Minister for the serious and rigorous way they country, they will be pleased to do so. have approached this issue. Will the Foreign Secretary confirm that had the distinguished SAS Major’s advice Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab): been taken, there would have been a much lower level of The Foreign Secretary will be aware that Coventry has a violence? Indeed, if that advice had been taken in full, relatively large and very successful Sikh community. He there would have been no violence at all, rather than will also probably know that for the past 30 years, since the—to my mind—appalling behaviour of the Indian the incident happened, I have been lobbied in this Government in the assault in Operation Metal, and the House repeatedly by the Sikh community. We had hoped weeks and months that followed. We must remember that his statement today would bring closure, but I fear that, for the victims of that, justice remains in very it will not. One of the problems is the military files that short supply. have been destroyed and much of what I have received from the Sikh community recently has been on that Mr Hague: Of course, we can never know for sure point. His statement today said that that “included one what would have happened under different circumstances file on the provision of military advice to the Indian or a different plan. It is clear from the Cabinet Secretary’s authorities on their contingency plans”. Only some of report that the UK military adviser gave advice about those other destroyed military documents have been using negotiations and using force only as a last resort, found in other files—only some. Can he reassure the and the military advice he gave was partly based on the House that the bulk of the destroyed files did not relate desire to reduce casualties all round. It is important that to the critical period of February and June, and then those points are fully brought out and understood, as immediately after June? my hon. Friend suggests. Mr Hague: As set out in my statement, there was the Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): As chair destruction by the Ministry of Defence of one file in of the all-party group for British Sikhs, I commend my 2009, but it has turned out that some of the documents hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich East that would have been in it are in other files around the (Mr Watson) for bringing this matter to light in the first rest of Government. The reassuring thing, I think, is place. I also thank the Foreign Secretary, the Prime that all of the documents show a consistent picture. Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for their swift and There is not, in the Cabinet Secretary’s analysis of these transparent report. Does the Foreign Secretary agree, documents, something that remains unexplained. It is a however, that the knowledge of even one military adviser consistent picture: of the one visit in February 1984 by going over in February 1984 will cause anger and hurt one military adviser; of no decision by the British to the British Sikh community? Will he consider the Government to give any further assistance beyond that, possibility of a further report into the consequences of either in nature or in time; and of the actual operation the attack on the Sri Harmandir Sahib? in June 1984 being very different from the advice given by that one UK military adviser. All the documents are Mr Hague: I understand how any of the matters that consistent with that in every Department across the we are discussing can cause worry, speculation and whole of Government in all 200 files. So, when we think suspicion, and we must be as transparent as possible about it in that way, it is a consistent picture and it about such things. The hon. Gentleman asks about a should be reassuring. further report, but it is important to remember that we can only investigate and inquire into what we or our Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): predecessors were responsible for. The Cabinet Secretary’s May I commend my right hon. Friend on a very frank report makes clear that there is no evidence in the statement? I am afraid that I must press him on one documents of any subsequent British military involvement point. During the statement, he said that “the adviser’s in any military operations in the Punjab. There are assessment made it clear that a military operation should many other wider issues and controversies that be put into effect only as a last resort when all attempts understandably cause people great distress to this day, at negotiation had failed.” It is therefore clear that there but they are predominantly matters under Indian was an assessment in February 1984 of the potential sovereignty, and part of the Indian people’s responsibility military operation. One thing that causes such hurt to for their own affairs. There is a limit to how much the the Sikh community across the world was the use of United Kingdom can inquire into those things. artillery, both at one of the holiest sites in Sikhism and in the wider region. Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that no British adviser, either this one or anyone Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): In his question, my else, ever gave advice that artillery should be used, and hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) that, insofar as any advice was given, it was that a rightly placed these issues in the context, for many military solution was not the right way forward? 155 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 156

Mr Hague: I think I can be reassuring on that point. There are not many countries in the world that have The advice was that military solutions—I think British that level of transparency relating to events in the past, military advisers would give this advice anywhere in the let alone in the present. We should say that those are world—are only for when all negotiations have failed. It good attributes of our country, and that they are good also referred specifically to the importance of speed and examples of how we face up to issues from the past. surprise, and to the use of helicopter-borne troops to achieve that and minimise casualties. That would not be Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): May I take consistent with the use of artillery, with all the consequent the Foreign Secretary back to the answer he gave to my collateral damage and destruction caused by the use of hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West heavy weapons. (Mr Robinson)? On page 2 of his report, he rather glibly says that under a 25-year procedure a lot of Ministry of Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): Those of us Defence files were destroyed. This issue is not new and who have had the honour to visit the Golden Temple concerns have been expressed ever since 1984. Therefore, know that it is a place of peace and tranquillity, and what was going through the minds of people in the that its symbolism is very significant. When the Prime MOD when they destroyed those files? Only some of Minister went to India, he visited Amritsar. He also them have been discovered in parallel files kept in other went to Jallianwala Bagh and signed a message of Departments. Why, at no stage in 1984, did any Minister condolence relating to an atrocity carried out by the feel fit to tell the House of Commons that a British British military in 1919. Would it not be appropriate for military adviser had been sent to India? I was a Member us to say something about apologising for the fact that of the House at that time and no such reference was there was minor, limited complicity in giving military ever made, so it was unlikely that any question would advice to the Indian authorities, because otherwise it have been raised. will be misinterpreted? The Prime Minister did the right thing when he went to India. Can we do something now Mr Hague: It is hard to judge—1984 was a few years for the Sikh community? before I was a Member of this House—why questions were not asked and statements not given. I do not think Mr Hague: As the hon. Gentleman says, the Prime that we can go back and judge that now. The hon. Minister did the right thing in making that statement on Gentleman said that I had said glibly in the report that other tragic events near Amritsar decades before and in the file was destroyed, but it is the Cabinet Secretary’s expressing this country’s regret for that. That was absolutely report, not my report. The Cabinet Secretary is reporting the right thing and I think across the whole House we the fact, which is that the MOD destroyed that file in support that. He did that because of Britain’s responsibility 2009. It is not for me to explain that. That happened for those events. Apologies go with responsibility and under the previous Administration and was carried out imply a responsibility. As I said earlier, if any of us by an official; it was not a political or ministerial thought that any British assistance had contributed to decision. It raises a sufficient question such that, in the unnecessary loss of life and to suffering in this case, or review I announced today, we have to look at such rules in any other case, we would all want to say that that was and how these things are carried out. That is part of a mistake and for the country to make an apology. But what Sir Alex Allan will examine. that is not what is established by the Cabinet Secretary’s report. The picture is very different from that, and we Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Further to the all have to base our opinions, in the end, on the facts. question from my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal), will the Foreign Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): My Secretary do all he can to continue building links with constituency is also home to a large Sikh community, the Punjab, both politically and economically, and and I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute encourage his colleagues across Government to recognise to the huge contribution they make to local and national the enormous contribution that the British Sikh population life. I am pleased that the Government have investigated make economically and socially? these issues so promptly. However, may I ask the Foreign Secretary what further steps he will take to reassure our Mr Hague: As our discussion today reminds us, the Sikh community that this investigation has indeed been importance of that contribution is understood across fully transparent and comprehensive? all parties in the House. Sikhs in Britain make an enormous contribution to this country, as is widely Mr Hague: It is important to explain the investigation, recognised in our national life, and it is something we and that is what I am doing today. I am sure that my want to continue and see flourish in the future. In our hon. Friend will encourage his constituents to read the minds in this House, none of these controversies detracts report. It is not a report just for Parliament to read; it is from the importance of that contribution, and nor a report for the public to read. It is published on the should they ever. Government’s website and it is easy for Members of Parliament to make copies available. People will be able Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): to make judgments for themselves on its transparency There is real concern, distress and grief among the Sikh and on how much reassurance to take from it. I hope community in my constituency over the horrific events they will be reassured that in this country we do look in June 1984. The correspondence released last month into such documents and respond to demands for indicated that the then Foreign Secretary, Lord Howe, investigations. We asked the highest ranking civil servant agreed to advise the Indian Government, and the Foreign in the country to lead those investigations. We ensured Secretary has confirmed that today. While my Sikh that officials from 30 years ago were interviewed and constituents were shocked that that advice was given, that tens of thousands of documents were examined. they are also seeking further clarity about the contact 157 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 158 between the British and Indian Governments at the father was born in India. In the constituency I have the time. With that in mind, will the Foreign Secretary honour to represent, there is a large Sikh community. I commit to disclose the full transcript of the Cabinet have visited the gurdwaras, and I have spoken to members Secretary’s interview with Lord Howe? of the community and answered their questions where I can. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that UK bilateral Mr Hague: The Cabinet Secretary decided what to relations with India and many other countries around disclose in his report, and that included additional the world mean that, as in the past, we are regularly documents that would not normally be disclosed and asked for assistance and bilateral advice by other countries, which gave additional details confirming the picture set especially those dealing with difficult situations, and out in his report and my statement. While preparing the that we afford such assistance where we can? report, he and his officials had discussions with officials and senior Ministers, and it was for him to set out to the Mr Hague: Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. Prime Minister, as he did in his report, what he As I just said to my hon. Friend the Member for South recommended for publication. I think that that provides Swindon (Mr Buckland), over the decades we have been a full, transparent picture, and that he made the right asked for military assistance and advice. It is not always judgment in what he said. possible to discuss specific instances on the Floor of the House, but when we receive such requests and decide to Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I welcome give assistance, this being the 21st century, we apply my right hon. Friend’s statement. Sikhs in the community high standards of human rights considerations and of I have the honour to represent still feel that the scars course always try to minimise loss of life, but it is not and wounds left by the events of 1984 run deep and uncommon for us to receive such requests. remain open, so the need for transparency is patently clear. On the nature of the advice given, was this a Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): When these unique set of circumstances with regard to India, or are documents came to light, there was a palpable sense of there examples of other countries seeking military advice betrayal, anger and incredulity within the Sikh community of the type sought in this case? in my constituency. It is clear from today that many questions remain unanswered, and the Foreign Secretary Mr Hague: It seems to have been unique in the has conceded that some documents were destroyed. In context of operations in the Punjab—this is the only response to my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and such occurrence the Cabinet Secretary has discovered—but Harlington (John McDonnell), he ruled out an independent globally there will, of course, have been many other inquiry, but would he not at least accept that an occasions in the 1980s when Governments of other independent, judge-led inquiry would allay any suspicions countries asked the United Kingdom for military advice, of a cover-up, allow former Ministers to give evidence and occasionally Ministers have to deal with that today, in full and enable us to determine whether a full apology so it is not unusual for a foreign country with friendly would be appropriate? relations with the UK to ask for military advice. Mr Hague: I encourage the hon. Gentleman to read Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): According to the the report, because I do not think it is possible to read it Heywood report, the recommendation and decision to and conclude that a cover-up has taken place. It is the agree to the request were based on advice from the very opposite of that: the most senior civil servant in British high commission that it would be good for the the country has considered the matter in a dispassionate bilateral relationship, whereas refusal would not be and non-partisan way; he has been as open as possible understood by the Indian Prime Minister. However, the with documents; and he has shown that all the evidence report does not tell us—perhaps the Foreign Secretary and documents paint a consistent picture. In those can—whether the high commission’s recommendation circumstances, it is not possible to justify additional gave consideration to the special sensitivity and sacredness inquiries piled on top of inquiries. People might be of the Golden Temple site or whether the British interested in other, related issues beyond the scope of Government’s decision to accept the advice gave the investigation—it is wholly legitimate for them to consideration to the special status of the site? pursue them—but on the nature of British involvement in the events leading up to June 1984, I think the Mr Hague: Further documents, which the hon. Cabinet Secretary’s report gives a clear answer. Gentleman can study, have been published and attached to the report, and that is the information we have on the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I think that motivations and decisions of Ministers and diplomats most Members would thank the Prime Minister and the at the time. Everyone can read the documents for themselves. Foreign Secretary for the speed of the inquiry and the It is evident from the UK military adviser’s report that latter for making such a full statement. I am surprised he advised that military action in this—and presumably to learn, however, that Government files are routinely in any other—context should be taken only if negotiations destroyed after 25 years—five years before they would failed. I imagine people would have been conscious of otherwise be released under the 30-year rule. Was the the great significance of the site and the delicacy of the Foreign Secretary as surprised as me by that? Furthermore, situation, but we can only go for sure on the documents if we move to a 20-year rule, will the 25-year rule that are there and what they say, and he can read them remain in place, meaning that all files will be available like the rest of us. for publication?

Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): I commend Mr Hague: The interaction between the move from a the Foreign Secretary and Cabinet Secretary for a job—and 30-year rule to a 20-year rule and the way Departments a neutral job—well done. Like the Father of House, my treat their files after 25 years raise interesting questions, 159 Sri Harmandir Sahib4 FEBRUARY 2014 Sri Harmandir Sahib 160

[Mr Hague] distinction between those two operations; he is absolutely right about that. I will not give any information that as it would make the 25-year rule rather a moot point. identifies the officer concerned. My hon. Friend is quite That is why there is value in the further review I have right to refer to the huge contribution of Sikhs—indeed, announced today to ensure consistency across all of Indians, Sikh and non-Sikh—in the world wars. We Departments and to ensure that lessons that need to be owe a great deal to them, and we must remember that learned from when documents have been withheld or on many occasions over the coming years, on the centenaries published can be learned collectively across the whole of the main events of the first world war. of Government. I encourage my hon. Friend to await the outcome of that review for a definitive answer to his Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Given question. the contribution that the Sikh community has made—not only in Coventry, but nationally and internationally, Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Foreign and, more importantly, economically to this country Secretary has been at pains to stress that the advice and in two world wars—at the very least we owe those given by the British military adviser was not, in fact, in that community an inquiry. This investigation is a followed and that it would therefore be inappropriate to step in the right direction, but we should have an take responsibility for Operation Blue Star and to issue inquiry. More importantly, will the Foreign Secretary an apology for it. None the less, it was countenanced to say what the Cabinet knew? Did the Cabinet take the give advice; indeed, advice was given about how to decision to send the adviser? Who consulted the Cabinet? storm the holiest site in Sikhism. Is that not something that the Foreign Secretary should apologise for? Mr Hague: It is clear from the documents that are published that this was a decision of the Foreign and Mr Hague: I go back to my earlier answers. I think it Defence Secretaries at the time, in consultation with the is fair to put it this way. If any of us, in any part of the Prime Minister. That was how the decision was taken. House, thought that Britain had contributed to serious On the subject of inquiries, these are the documents and or unnecessary loss of life elsewhere in the world, it the facts, as set out in the Cabinet Secretary’s report. would be right to acknowledge a mistake and to say There is nothing in that report or in those documents to that the country apologises for that, but when the suggest that some form of inquiry would find any country clearly does not have responsibility for it, that different information or come to any different conclusion. is a different context. We have to go on the facts, and I think the facts are clear. Of course, the hon. Gentleman Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): is really asking us to judge to a finer degree the decisions Many Sikhs in my constituency are concerned not just of Ministers at the time, which I feel, 30 years later and about the detail and nature of the advice given, but in a different Government, is very hard to do and could about the principle that the British Government were be unfair. I therefore stick to what I said earlier on this. prepared to advise another Government on an attack upon a holy shrine. If we are to get reconciliation, would the Foreign Secretary not be prepared to concede, Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I thank the first, that at least it was an error of judgment by the Foreign Secretary for his statement, which I am confident then Government and that an apology is justified, and, will be very reassuring to the long-established and highly secondly, that there must be procedures in place to respected Sikh community in Kettering. None of us prevent any such repetition in future? should ever forget that 83,000 Sikhs gave their lives in both world wars for His Majesty’s armed forces. Mr Hague: Thankfully there are no parallel situations Does the Foreign Secretary agree that it is important that we are dealing with in the world today. We do not to put two and two together and make five? Will he receive requests—now, in the 21st century—for military confirm the rank of the military adviser? Does he also advice or co-operation. As I mentioned earlier, in responding agree that the Iranian hostage siege operation and the to those we are extremely conscious of all considerations raid on the Golden Temple in Amritsar were completely of human rights and avoiding loss of life. These are different exercises? The Iranian hostage siege operation paramount factors in how the British Government, as was a precise, surgical military engagement involving a we practise our policies today, evaluate requests for small number of armed soldiers and a small number of assistance from other countries, whether through their hostages, and was remarkably successful. The raid on militaries or any other agencies. These policies have the Golden Temple involved artillery, main battle tanks, taken shape over the years, and it is very hard to helicopter gunships and the execution of prisoners. It is speculate about exactly what considerations were in the completely inconceivable that Her Majesty’s Government minds of Ministers 30 years ago. would send any military adviser to another Government to recommend an assault of that kind. On the question of 30 years ago, all we can do is be as open and transparent as possible and let people evaluate Mr Hague: There is a great deal in what my hon. the facts for themselves. It would not be unusual or Friend says. It has been the culture of the British armed unknown, as I said, for foreign Governments to ask for forces for a long time to avoid, wherever possible, military advice. What is clear from this case is that the civilian loss of life and to minimise casualties in any military advice that was given was designed to minimise operations, or anything similar to them, such as those casualties and to stress that military action should take to which he referred. There is therefore a very big place only if all negotiations had failed. 161 4 FEBRUARY 2014 Flooding Prevention for New 162 Developments Flooding Prevention for New Developments Thoresby Dale, where there is already extensive flooding, and the current plans do nothing to improve the plight Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order of residents in the area. The solution seems quite simple No. 23) to me. The council is about to spend more than £15 million on the road; laying a purpose-built top-water drainage 1.57 pm system below the road, while the diggers are there in any event, would involve very little additional cost, and Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I beg to move, would be of massive benefit to people in the area. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision to My second example relates to the village of Farnsfield, require Highways Authorities to include flooding prevention whose predicament, sadly, is not unusual. The village schemes in the development of new road constructions; and for connected purposes. has suffered a number of flash-flooding events over the past five years, which have usually culminated in an I am grateful for the opportunity to present this overflow of the foul water systems which has left several ten-minute rule Bill, Madam Deputy Speaker. You will householders with raw sewage in their gardens, garages be aware of how high a profile flooding has in the news and homes. Newark and Sherwood district council is at the moment. Sadly for many residents in Sherwood, currently considering a substantial development on the this is not a recent problem, but something they have edge of the village, upstream of the flooding properties, lived with for a very long time. Many of the villages of and that can only make the problem worse unless Nottinghamshire are built around settlements dating substantial mitigation measures are introduced. My Bill back to Saxon times located next to a small stream as a would ensure that the developer was legally obliged to source of fresh water. They have evolved and grown for do that, and would hold the highway authority responsible hundreds of years. For many of them, the discovery of for ensuring that it was done during the planning process. coal meant their growth was quite rapid in the 20th The Bill is not retrospective, so it will not solve the century. existing problems, but it will help to prevent them from Sadly, the drainage systems of those villages have not being made worse in future. While I am realistic about grown at the same rate, and further developments upstream its chances of success, I nevertheless hope that the have added to the problem of drainage. Those villages Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and are today faced with sewage systems that are already Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for under enormous pressure and have a high risk of flooding Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice)—who is during periods of prolonged or heavy rainfall. That is present—has listened to my comments. There may still because there are often no top water drainage systems be a further opportunity to amend the Water Bill, in place, and run-off from roofs, driveways and highways which is currently in the House of Lords. is left to flood the highway or enter the village stream I commend my Bill to the House. or, even worse, is directed into the foul water system. Question put and agreed to. My Bill, should it be successful, seeks to prevent any further pressure on these already over-stretched drainage Ordered, systems. That Mr Mark Spencer, Heather Wheeler, Angie Bray, Robert Halfon and Karl McCartney present the Currently, water companies are placed under an Bill. obligation to connect any new development to an existing sewage system, even if this system has flooded in the Mr Mark Spencer accordingly presented the Bill. recent past. It is the water company and its customers Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on who bear the costs of any improvements required, not Friday 28 February, and to be printed (Bill 167). the developer, who may be building a large number of houses further upstream. My Bill would do two things ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR, CRIME AND in those circumstances. First, it would ensure that the POLICING BILL (PROGRAMME) (NO. 3) developer was obliged to pay for any proportionate Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing improvement required in the foul water system. Secondly, Order No. 83A(7)), my Bill would ensure that any top water must be dealt That the following provisions shall apply to the Anti-social with via a purpose-built top water system and not Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill for the purpose of supplementing increase water flows downstream during high rainfall the Orders of 10 June 2013 (Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and events. Policing Bill (Programme)) and 14 October 2013 (Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill (Programme) (No. 2)): That would also apply where a new road development was taking place. Any new highway being built would Consideration of Lords Amendments have to include its own surface water drainage system (1) Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion that did not add increased volumes of water during three hours after their commencement at today’s sitting. high rainfall events. Such action would be entirely achievable (2) The proceedings shall be taken in the following order: with the use of balancing ponds, and would not dramatically Lords Amendment No. 112; Lords Amendments Nos. 1 to 111; increase costs, as the new systems would be put in while Lords Amendments Nos. 113 to 180. the diggers were on the ground. There are a number of Subsequent stages instances in which that has already been done, but, (3) Any further Message from the Lords may be considered sadly, it does not appear to be happening in a number of forthwith without any Question being put. instances in Sherwood. (4) The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords Nottinghamshire county council is currently planning shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion the development of the Hucknall inner relief road. I one hour after their commencement.—(Damian Green.) shall not be discussing the merits of that today, but the Question agreed to. proposed route runs though an area of Hucknall around 163 4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 164

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime Our aim is to create an unambiguous statutory and Policing Bill description of such a situation for the purposes of compensation. The fact that the definition inserted in Consideration of Lords amendments the Bill by Lords amendment 112 is open to various interpretations is obvious from the significant number Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing): I must of judicial review cases awaiting consideration by the draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial administrative court—13 at present—in which the aim privilege is involved in Lords amendment 89. If the is to challenge the Secretary of State’s application of House agrees to the amendment, I shall cause the the Supreme Court’s judgment in the case of Adams. appropriate entry to be made in the Journal. That number excludes the three cases that are awaiting judgment from the challenge to the divisional court’s decision in respect of R v. Abdulla Ahmed Ali and Clause 151 others, which was heard by the Court of Appeal last December. A test similar to the “Adams test”—the COMPENSATION FOR MISCARRIAGES OF JUSTICE definition that is at the heart of all these cases—is the test that is now being proposed in Lords amendment 112. 2.4 pm It is vitally important for us to ensure that the definition The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims that is introduced into statute for the first time is “fit for (Damian Green): I beg to move, That this House disagrees purpose”. It must be clear and robust enough to avoid with Lords amendment 112. the need for further judicial interpretation, and, as far as possible, to limit the scope for argument about what Madam Deputy Speaker: With this is will be convenient will amount to a miscarriage of justice. The amendment to take Government amendment (a) in lieu of Lords that we propose would leave applicants in no doubt: if amendment 112. the new fact that led to their conviction being quashed showed that they did not commit the offence—for example, Damian Green: I should add that I wish the House to if it were shown that they had been somewhere else at agree to amendment (a). the time, if someone else was proved to be the perpetrator, or if the courts acknowledged that no offence had in Clause 151 defines what amounts to a “miscarriage fact been committed—they would have suffered a of justice” for the purposes of compensation under miscarriage of justice, and would be likely to be section 133 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. There has compensated. been much debate about the clause, both here and in the House of Lords, and I am indebted to all who have contributed to examining this important issue. The Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Will the Minister Government have taken account of all the points that explain to those of us who are not lawyers what the have been made and all the concerns that have been difference is between the Government’s original wording expressed, and our position has changed as a result of and the wording of the amendment that they are now the very good debates that have taken place in Committee proposing? here as well as in the House of Lords. Damian Green: I join my hon. Friend in that state of I was pleased to note that Members of both Houses grace of not being a lawyer. The difference is that we and members of the Joint Committee on Human Rights have removed the word “innocent”. There was, I think, agreed with us that that the current definition set out by a feeling that the original Government proposal required the divisional court in the case of Ali was not clear people to prove their innocence, which, of course, would enough, that we needed to legislate for a clear definition alter the presumptions that lie at the heart of the of a miscarriage of justice given the ongoing uncertainty criminal justice system. That is what could be described and reinterpretation of definitions by the courts, and as the non-legal significant difference, which is none the that our aim was not to seek to restrict compensation, less a significant difference. but to provide clarity. The question that remains before us is how it can be determined whether someone has suffered a miscarriage of justice. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Will the Minister therefore explain to us what the difference This is indeed a complex issue. When a case is properly is between “innocent of” and “did not commit”? brought to court—that is, when there is evidence of a crime on which it is right to ask a jury to adjudicate—there is no miscarriage of justice when the result of the trial is Damian Green: A lot of the debate was about the an acquittal, or even in very many of the cases in which nomenclature—the thought that we were asking people a guilty verdict is later quashed as unsafe. The Government to prove their innocence. I have just explained the effect believe that a miscarriage of justice arises only when of the new clause: if a new fact emerges that on its own there is in existence a fact which entirely exonerates the shows the person could not have committed the offence accused: in other words, a fact which makes it or that an offence may not have been committed, that unquestionable that the accused did not commit the would entitle that person to compensation. Throughout crime. In such cases, it is only the ignorance of this fact this debate people have recognised that it is not simply a that allowed the accused to be convicted in the first question of being declared innocent that requires a place. What we are seeking to define is something far miscarriage of justice to be called. more than merely a failure in the investigative or trial processes. We are seeking to define a clear miscarriage Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Further to that point, of justice which is—and, in our view, can only be—the will the Minister explain how it would be different for wrongful conviction of the innocent. someone to prove they did not commit an offence, as 165 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 166 opposed to someone being expected to prove their Everyone has been asking, “What’s the difference innocence? What is the difference in terms of the burden between the original clause and this clause?” Of course of proof? the substance is not different. However, we recognise that in this area language is very important, and precisely Damian Green: The point is that nobody has to prove because of the emotion that surrounds the word “innocent”, that they are innocent. We are not requiring them to do there is a case for reviewing the reference to that word that. There requires there to be evidence that shows that which has been so controversial, and that is what we they could not have committed the offence because they have done. We have removed that word, which I hope were someone else, for example, or because there is new adds to the clarity and lack of ambiguity. DNA evidence or the offence has not been committed. That is the material difference between the two. 2.15 pm Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Will the Minister concede John McDonnell: I think I understand where the that that puts the burden of proof squarely on the Minister is coming from, but I just think we are getting defendant, however? They will have to do what is virtually ourselves into a bit of a mess here. Let me give him a impossible: prove a negative, and perhaps many years concrete example. I chaired the Guildford Four campaign after the alleged offence took place. for a large number of years. What happened there was the discovery that the confessions were completely wrong. Damian Green: No, I do not accept that because what They were wrong for all sorts of different reasons—the would trigger the compensation claim would be the new circumstances in which they were taken, the way they evidence showing they could not have committed the were taken. They were just false. At that stage it is then offence. Something has to happen. Some new evidence demonstrated that the prosecution—and the original has to be brought forward, so it is not simply a situation decision of the courts—is unsound and it is then dismissed. of the case being redefined. Those people are then released. They will then have to seek to prove their innocence to gain any compensation, so practically I think we are digging ourselves into a Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): If an innocent hole here and are creating a system that will cause more bystander is watching this debate today and the Minister problems than those we are seeking to solve. is saying they have to prove they did not commit an offence, it sounds awfully like they have to prove their Damian Green: I disagree. The hon. Gentleman seems own innocence, which of course is anathema to our to be saying the system will in some ways be more legal system. Why is he so keen on this new version? difficult because people will have to apply for compensation. That in itself is not a huge change. Damian Green: I am keen on this new version and consider it to be an improvement on the original version John McDonnell: May I explain my point again? Let precisely because it does not require anyone to prove us take the Birmingham Six as our example. As soon as they are innocent, and it provides as unambiguous a the confessions were seen to be completely false, they wording as we can find to ensure we do not have years were released on the basis that their prosecution was of judicial interpretation to come. unsound. However, to gain compensation they will now have to go out and prove they “did not commit” or they Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I were “innocent”, whichever terminology is decided on. assure the Minister I have not risen to intervene to ensure he takes an intervention from every other Member Damian Green: I think this is just a genuine in the Chamber. Can he give me an example of a case misunderstanding. Someone will be eligible for that would not pass one filter but would pass the other compensation if the new fact—the hon. Gentleman is filter, because I cannot think of one? talking about new facts emerging in respect of confessions and so on—which led to the quashing of their conviction Damian Green: It would not be helpful to go into shows they did not commit the offence for which they individual cases. I have given some examples of what were convicted. I think the particular objection he is requirements need to be shown for an applicant to giving rise to now would not apply, therefore. receive compensation. What is required is that there must be a new fact that demonstrates that the applicant John McDonnell rose— did not commit the crime. A Court of Appeal judgment that led to the quashing of an applicant’s conviction Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman has had a go. would have to show what the reasons were. Although I cannot give individual examples, I can tell my right hon. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con) rose— Friend that the reason could be new DNA evidence or compelling new medical evidence, or compelling new Damian Green: I give way to my hon. Friend. alibi evidence that shows the applicant was somewhere else at the time. Mr Burrowes: I must declare an interest as a lawyer. To address what lies behind a lot of the unease, let me Returning to the amendment, these matters must be say that it is fundamentally important to remember that dealt with on a proper evidential basis. It has never been we are legislating here for a compensation scheme that the remit of a court or Minister to pronounce on is based on specific eligibility requirements. These are innocence. The issue is dealing with the question of designed to meet our international obligations which whether an offence has been committed. That is what only require payment in exceptional cases. The Government any jury or tribunal considers on the basis of the believe this clause achieves that. evidence. It is therefore important to look at the test for 167 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 168

[Mr Burrowes] more” is. We believe that the definition we are now providing in our amendment will make it easier for compensation on an evidential basis, which plainly is applicants to assess whether they should apply for whether an offence has been committed. If we get into compensation, and will make decisions on eligibility the territory of pronouncing on innocence, the situation easier for the applicant to understand and less likely to becomes harder and more ambiguous. The amendment be the subject of legal challenge, as my hon. Friend the in lieu makes it much more concrete. This is a fair and Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) made just test and that is why the amendment in lieu is clear a moment ago. welcome. Mark Durkan: Surely the Government’s amendment Damian Green: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for would not make it easier for the applicant to decide. bringing his legal mind to bear on this, and explaining Would not the Lords amendment make it easier to the difference. decide? Damian Green: No; my difference with the Lords John McDonnell rose— amendment is that it would leave applicants less clear about what to do. This would result in a large number of Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman may disagree, cases backing up in the courts waiting for judges to but he will have his chance to contribute to the debate. interpret what Parliament meant by the legislation, just We are seeking to provide greater clarity, which is as there are at the moment. The purpose of my proposal why we are unwilling to accept the Lords amendment. today is twofold: first, to meet the reasonable objections We have listened to those who consider that the express that have been raised about the original Government reference to the concept of innocence is problematic. proposal; secondly, to provide greater clarity so that the That is what lies at the heart of this change. Our House can speak with as clear a voice as possible in amendment in lieu is intended to take this concern into these difficult areas and not leave the field open to account by removing what has been until now the judicial interpretation, which can take a long time and controversial aspect of this clause: the use of the word which provides uncertainty for applicants. “innocent”. I hope that removing the express reference I am aware that, in both Houses, there has been a to innocence will make our respect for the presumption misconception that applicants would somehow be required of innocence clear, and I hope I can allay the concerns to prove that they did not commit the offence before expressed by hon. Members. compensation could be considered. I can categorically We remain strongly committed to ensuring that say that that is not the case. Applicants do not have to compensation is paid only to those who genuinely warrant prove anything under the existing criteria, and nor it, however. In our view compensation should be paid would they have to do so in future under this proposal. only to applicants where it is shown beyond reasonable Applicants need only rely on information that is already doubt that they did not commit the offence. We believe available to them as a result of their appeal process. that this change takes into account the points made in The test provided for in the Bill on its introduction the House of Lords, which we have carefully considered. was one that Labour was perfectly content to operate As Lord Phillips said in that debate, the primary objective while it was in office. I hope that the new definition, of section 133 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, which which attempts to address the concerns that have been this clause would amend, is to provide redress to an raised, will therefore have the support of the Opposition. applicant who has been convicted when he or she was in I hope that they will now reconsider their position so fact innocent. He also considered that its second and that the Bill, and the many important measures it subsidiary objective was to ensure that an applicant contains, can swiftly secure Royal Assent. whose conviction had been quashed but who had in fact committed the offence charged should not be compensated. Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Justice Our proposed test goes a long way towards achieving demands that those who are guilty of serious offences both of those objectives. We consider that, while the should be held to account and brought before the definition of a miscarriage of justice for which we are courts, especially in the case of heinous offences such as seeking to legislate is drawn narrowly, it nevertheless the murder of a child or a terrorist outrage of the kind provides for a range of circumstances in which that the city I am proud to represent suffered in 1974, compensation should rightly be paid to help people with the appalling Birmingham pub bombings by the who need to rebuild their lives after suffering great Provisional IRA, in which 21 innocent civilians were injustices. murdered. The victims of such crimes deserve no less Throughout our debates, much has been said about than having the perpetrators brought to justice. Justice the views of the European Court of Human Rights on also demands that the innocent should not be found compensation for a miscarriage of justice, and I am guilty, however. When serious miscarriages of justice again grateful to Lord Phillips, who commented on this occur, it is right that the innocent have access to justice so succinctly during the debate on Report in the Lords. and are able to be compensated for them. He stated: I am proud of the system of jury trial in this country. “In substance, whatever interpretation is given to miscarriage I fought for many years to defend it, as a member of the of justice, something more than quashing a conviction is properly executive council of the then National Council for Civil required”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 22 January 2014; Liberties, now known as Liberty. Trial by jury is one of Vol. 751, c. 680.] our great British institutions. In the words of the jurist This much can be gleaned from the four most recent Lord Devlin, each jury is a “mini Parliament”, and trial decisions of the European Court on this issue. Today, by jury is our business is to determine precisely what that “something “the lamp that shows that freedom lives”. 169 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 170

Juries can get it wrong in certain circumstances, are troubling, and here I come back to the reference to however: when evidence is withheld from or not disclosed “beyond reasonable doubt”. to the defence, as in the case of Sally Clark; when new forensic evidence shows that the person charged and Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): convicted was in fact innocent, as in the case of Mary The hon. Gentleman talks about the issue of innocence Druhan; or when evidence is extorted as a consequence and the test that is to be applied. Like me, he is aware of outrageous and unacceptable pressure in a police that Barry George was convicted of the murder of Jill station, or when it is manufactured, as in the cases of Dando, was then acquitted and then lost his appeal for the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four. When we compensation. What does the hon. Gentleman say about debate the importance of compensation for the victims that case? of miscarriages of justice, it is worth reflecting on each of those sets of circumstances. Jack Dromey: First, the number of people who receive compensation every year is a handful—it is less than the Sally Clark was a practising solicitor. She was traumatised number of fingers on a hand. There is no automatic by the sudden death of her child. She was wrongly entitlement to compensation, and each case is considered accused of murdering her child, and went to prison. on its merits. Secondly, I have rightly focused on cases When she came out, she was a crushed woman, and she where people are absolutely entitled to receive compensation died not long afterwards. Mary Druhan was convicted for the trauma they suffered as a result of being wrongly of arson. In a powerful speech in the other place, convicted and spending many years in prison, and I Baroness Kennedy of the Shaws described how Mary hope the hon. Gentleman would agree on that. Druhan had served 11 years in prison, and how she had become so institutionalised that when she came out, she Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): I was unable to negotiate public transport. She was also share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about the cases he traumatised by the tragic suicide of her daughter while has cited and the appalling years that these people she was in prison. spent, without obtaining justice in the form of At a time in our history when the country was reeling compensation. We need to recognise where we agree: from the horror of terrorist violence, what happened to there is a consensus in the House on achieving justice the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four was absolutely for these people. He mentioned the innocence test. wrong. The Birmingham Six were beaten, brutalised Amendment (a) would do away with the language of and wrongly convicted. They served 16 years in prison. “innocent” and replace it with a test of “did not commit”. In the case of the Guildford Four, I will never forget What is the substantive difference between that and the when they walked to freedom and Gerry Conlon stood Pannick amendment, which I understand he supports on the steps of the Old Bailey and said that his dad had and which also requires that the burden is to prove died in prison. Such serious miscarriages of justice are “conclusively that the evidence against the person at trial is so mercifully rare—there are typically only a couple a undermined that no conviction could be possibly be based on it”? year—but it is absolutely right that compensation should There is still a burden to provide conclusive proof, so be available for the innocent victims who have suffered what is the substantive difference between it and the as a result of them. “did not commit” test that the Government are now At the very heart of our legal system lies the principle proposing? that a person is innocent until proved guilty, and rightly Jack Dromey: In English law, someone is innocent so. It is for that reason that Labour tabled an amendment until they are proved guilty. Let me contrast the three on Report to ensure that that age-old principle was different formulations. The Lords amendment would upheld. I said then, as I do now, that I agreed that the mean that the new or newly discovered fact showed Government were right in principle to include in the Bill a statutory definition of the cases in which compensation “conclusively that the evidence against the person at trial is so should be paid for a miscarriage of justice, in order to undermined that no conviction could possibly be based on it”. secure greater certainty in this area of the law. However, The Government’s original clause would have required the Government’s proposed changes today seek to redefine that the fact showed the compensation test, limiting it to circumstances in “beyond reasonable doubt that the person was innocent of the which a offence”. “new or newly discovered fact shows beyond reasonable doubt Amendment (a) in lieu of the Lords amendment repeats that the person was innocent of the offence” those tell-tale words of “beyond reasonable doubt” and of which he or she was convicted. That seems to fly in proposes a test that the person “did not commit” the the face of the age-old principle. Worse still, the offence. We strongly believe that the formulation from Government’s proposal will lead to the Secretary of the other place provides a much more appropriate test, State passing judgment on whether or not a person is and that the amendment in lieu is about making it more innocent. Requiring the Secretary of State to perform difficult for victims of miscarriages of justice like those that role when no court has done so would be to impose to whom I have referred to receive compensation. Indeed, a complex and contentious role on Ministers, in cases two of the Birmingham Six have expressed the view, that are among the most sensitive. following legal advice, that they might not have been entitled to compensation under the Government’s proposed changes. 2.30 pm Far from securing greater certainty in the law, the Mr Burrowes: We are talking about where the burden Government’s proposals seems to be a recipe for complex, lies so we are dealing with the difference between a test expensive and highly acrimonious litigation. The problems of “beyond reasonable doubt” and one of proving that an innocence test would cause in cases like those of “conclusively”. This is not about distinguishing “innocence”; the Birmingham Six, the Guildford Four or Sally Clark the debate was had in the Lords and there has been a 171 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 172

[Mr Burrowes] Mr Burrowes rose— recognition that we need to have reference to a “did not Jack Dromey: I have given way three times and have commit” test. I am trying to work out where we differ been more than happy to do so, but let me continue on this. Are we differing about whether something now. should be proved “beyond reasonable doubt” or just be proved “conclusively”? If so, what is the substantive For all the reasons I have described, Labour tabled an difference between proving “conclusively” and proving amendment on Report in this Chamber and then “beyond reasonable doubt”? wholeheartedly backed the amendment in the name of Lord Pannick in the other place, which would ensure Jack Dromey: As a lawyer, the hon. Gentleman will that compensation should be paid only if the new or know the difference between providing conclusive proof newly discovered fact showed conclusively that the evidence and proving something beyond reasonable doubt. I against the defendant at trial was so undermined that stress again that the essence of our argument, and that “ no conviction could possibly be based on it.” supported by all parties and Cross Benchers in the other That clearly provides a statutory definition and greater place, is that an individual is innocent until proved certainty in this area of the law, while adhering to the guilty.We see no good reason why a victim of a miscarriage age-old principle for which I have argued so strongly. of justice should suffer a “beyond reasonable doubt” When the Court of Appeal has quashed a conviction, it test. is simply wrong then to require the defendant also to Jeremy Corbyn: Is not the Barry George example one establish beyond reasonable doubt that he or she is, to we should think about carefully? He was convicted and all intents and purposes, innocent. Such a provision is spent a lot of time in prison but was later released as incompatible with the presumption of innocence. “not guilty” of the offence. He was then denied any The framework for which I am arguing already applies compensation. Is the amendment in lieu an attempt by in the Supreme Court, where it was brought in by the the Government to deny people compensation, and then President, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, who thus save money? Or is it a return to the slack days when strongly supported the Pannick amendment in the other a large number of people were wrongly convicted? The place, and indeed in the European Court of Human Criminal Cases Review Commission, which gave evidence Rights. Indeed, the Joint Committee on Human Rights last week to the Select Committee on Justice, confirmed has said: that more than 500 people had been released from “in our view requiring proof of innocence beyond reasonable prison as a result of its intervention—I believe that is doubt as a condition of obtaining compensation for wrongful the correct figure. conviction is incompatible with the presumption of innocence which is protected by both the common law and Article 6(2) Jack Dromey: There is a widespread view, reflected in ECHR.” the debate in the other place—someone talked about It is worth stressing again that the amendment from “incredulity”—as to why the Government are introducing the other place is not about giving people more such a test. A statutory definition providing greater compensation automatically or making it easier for clarity, particularly in the light of some of the cases that people to get off on technicalities and then to claim have gone before the courts, is one thing, but making it compensation in all circumstances; it is about serious more difficult for people to receive compensation for and rare cases in which it is entirely appropriate that the serious miscarriages of justice is something altogether victims should receive compensation. As our amendment different. As the Barry George case shows, very few makes clear, asking people to prove their innocence people are receiving compensation. The fear expressed beyond reasonable doubt is an affront to our system of in the other place is that the Government’s proposals law, and denying compensation to those who have been will make it yet more difficult to obtain compensation wrongly convicted is an affront to a decent society. for a miscarriage of justice. Many Members of this House, including my hon. Friend Mr Burrowes: We all want clarity, so let me try to the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) understand the difference between “conclusively” and and the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), have “beyond reasonable doubt”. Are we talking about a campaigned for many years on miscarriages of justice. balance of probabilities—whether something is more The simple fact is that our legal system is not perfect, likely than not? Or are we talking about proving something and cases do go wrong. It is a tribute to our legal system beyond reasonable doubt, so that people are satisfied that miscarriages of justice are rare, but when they do and sure? Is “conclusively” a balance of probabilities happen, it is simply wrong to expect those who have test, a beyond reasonable doubt test or something else? suffered to prove to all intents and purposes that they If it is something else, that wording does not provide the are innocent beyond reasonable doubt—it is adding to clarity we all seek. the injustice that they have already suffered. Jack Dromey: As an eminent lawyer, the hon. Gentleman As I argued at the start of my contribution, miscarriages will know that “beyond reasonable doubt” has a very of justice lead to ruined lives. Families are destroyed. clear standing and purpose in our criminal justice system. People leave while their partners sit wrongly behind bars. Jobs and homes are lost and people’s reputations Mr Burrowes: Which is it? are left in tatters. The mental despair and anguish are never fully resolved, which is why victims of miscarriages Jack Dromey: We believe it is inappropriate for the of justice need real help on their release. People’s lives test to be pitched so high; a “beyond reasonable doubt” can never go back to how they were. That is where we, test will make it more difficult for victims of miscarriages as a decent society, have to make amends, and that is of justice to obtain compensation. what our amendment does. 173 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 174

In conclusion, I urge all Members of this House to 2.45 pm support a rigorous and fair justice system that sticks up for its founding principle of people being innocent until Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con) proved guilty; that rejects the notion of “beyond reasonable rose— doubt” to obtain compensation; that ensures that where John McDonnell: Let me just finish this point, then I a serious miscarriage of justice has happened, innocent will give way; I welcome the intervention. people receive fair compensation for all they have suffered; In the cases of the Birmingham Six and the Guildford and that reflects rulings already set out in the Supreme Four, the media very quickly started to say. “Well, they Court and the European Court of Human Rights. In might have got off, but maybe they did it anyway.” A short, we want a justice system that is serious about campaign then started in the gutter press. It did not putting right serious injustice. matter how good the evidence was, they still came at us. They tried to damage the reputations of those individuals. John McDonnell: To be frank, I am absolutely confused What worries me is that a Secretary of State determining about where we have got to. I am confused over the that a higher level of proof is required to gain compensation difference of interpretation between innocence and “did will affect the atmosphere that is created. not commit”. If someone wants to intervene on me at this stage I would be really grateful, because I cannot Mark Field: I must admit that I have quite a lot of see the difference. sympathy with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. He expresses a specific concern about high-profile miscarriages My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington of justice. However, is there not a concern that this new (Jack Dromey) has explained the implications of the test of a convincing case brings a whole lot more proposal with regard to the Birmingham Six and Guildford uncertainty into the law? I dare say that it will be an Four. Let me put the situation in context following my absolute boon for the lawyers as to precisely where that involvement in the case of the Guildford Four. A number comes into play. Although I have sympathy with what of people are locked up for many years. When they the hon. Gentleman says, the benefit of what the Minister come out, they have nothing—no accommodation and is saying is that we at least have a certain test that is no employment. The financial compensation they receive already set in English law. is relatively minimal compared with the suffering that they have gone through, and it is desperately needed to John McDonnell: In my view, the Government’s test is ensure that they have a chance of some form of normal faulty. I am not convinced of the need for this additional life in the future. test anyway. At least the House of Lords edges towards In the case of the Guildford Four—it was the same in some greater level of fairness. I would rather give up on the case of the Birmingham Six—we found that not just this attempt to redefine. the prisoners but whole families were devastated. There The hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham have been suicides in the family of Paul Hill. As my (Rehman Chishti) raised the case of Barry George. hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy There has always been an ability in our system for the Corbyn) knows, the lives of Errol and Theresa Smalley court awarding compensation to take into account whether have been permanently damaged. The whole family the person contributed towards their plight. That has network has been damaged as a result of that case. an effect on compensation levels or even whether Gerry Conlon admitted it when he came out of prison. compensation is awarded at all. By seeking to arrive at He was addicted to drugs, because that was the only some definition in legislation, we are digging ourselves way he could cope. The state pays compensation to try into a very complicated and costly hole, and that cost to do whatever it can to remedy the injustice that took will be on the individuals who are desperately trying to place. ensure that they get some compensation for the ill that The cases of the Guildford Four and the Birmingham they have experienced as a result of the state’s failure to Six went to court and were quashed because the forensic live up to a proper process. Additionally, it will be evidence demonstrated that confessions were made under extremely costly for the state. As a result of the weakness duress and that documents were tampered with. When in the definition proposed by the Government, we will they left court, it was on the basis that the system had see case after case being dragged through the English failed in due process to prove that they had committed courts and then the European courts. In trying to the crimes for which they were brought to court. We remedy some form of perceived ill, we will create greater then went through a negotiation process, which was damage to those who have suffered enough. quite bizarre; I did not realise that, under the existing In addition, the process that is under way at the compensation arrangements, their compensation would moment risks making a laughing stock of the Government. be reduced to pay for accommodation charges while As we have heard today, there will be arguments over they were in prison. It was a real struggle to get that the difference between “do not commit” and innocence, compensation. The Minister says that this is not the between conclusively and beyond all reasonable doubt. case, but under the proposed system, if a case is quashed The lawyers will make a fortune. I plead for a common-sense on the basis of that type of evidence, the defendants approach. The compensation arrangements at the moment will have to go to another level of proof to get any are not absolutely perfect, but at least we have managed compensation. They will have to demonstrate not that to secure some compensation for those cases that have the process was faulty in the first place and that they been quashed as a result of the state’s failure, and this is should never have been caught, but that they did not about the state’s failure to act accordingly. commit the crime, which is having to prove innocence. There are many other cases. Susan May recently That is almost impossible, for any of us. Trying to prove passed away, unfortunately, but her case is still being that negative is contrary to everything in English law, pursued to demonstrate her innocence, and I think that, and practically impossible to do. rather than it being proved in the long run that the 175 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 176

[John McDonnell] If as MPs we were arrested on the basis of some allegation, the fact that we were not charged and nothing evidential base was the problem, it will be demonstrated more happened would show that we were innocent, but that police processes were not adhered to and it will be would other people necessarily say that it proved that another case that is eventually quashed. I hope that the no offence had been committed and nothing had happened? Criminal Cases Review Commission will posthumously Things might be different; there can be a difference provide some proof that she should never have been between “innocent” and “did not commit”. As the hon. taken through the courts, but again, the case has been Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) dragged out over years, demonstrating how difficult it said, it is hard to prove a negative. We know from recent is, even when trying to prove the failure of due process, events of major publicity and political import in which to secure not just a decision but any compensation. The allegations were made that someone had spoken to and new process will make it even harder to get compensation, treated police officers in a particular way, leading to drag the decision-making processes out for even longer consequences and all sorts of sweeping media and and prove to be basically unfair. public judgments—although thankfully not court I support the Lords amendment, because at least it judgments—that that person was put in the position of moves us a little further forward, although I think even having to prove a negative. They were asked to prove it will be open to significant challenge in the courts. that they did not say what they were meant to have said and that they did not behave in the way that they were Mark Durkan: I rise to support Lords amendment meant to have behaved. 112 and oppose the Government’s amendment in lieu. We need to think not only about the hard and serious The Minister told us that the Government were moving cases when we consider miscarriages of justice in this to allay the concerns raised by the use of the word jurisdiction; some of the questions about the difference “innocence” and its abuse in the Bill as originally drafted. between “innocent” and “did not commit” can be asked Of course, many of us argued that the wording used in closer to home about cases that do not necessarily reach the original Bill changed all the normal presumptions the criminal courts. If we are conscious about language about innocence under the rule of law and that it was and the standards, judgments and measure of such tilting things to say that because someone had not things, it might help us and make us a wee bit more proved their innocence they could remain guilty, even sensitive about how we word things as legislators. though they had been released on a quashed conviction. We were concerned not just about the word “innocence” The Lords amendment is designed, I believe, to meet but about the fact that the burden of proof would be the problem that the Government were seeking to address reloaded for cases subject to review on the basis of new in the Bill. The Government said that they did not want evidence that could lead to a quashed conviction. We to create a situation whereby the quashing of a conviction were concerned that the question of compensation would led either to the automatic fact of compensation or to be tested by altering the burden of proof so that new the automatic assumption or expectation of compensation. evidence had to prove someone’s innocence. The onus They felt that some other test or qualification was was being put on that person and their legal team to needed. That was what the Government decided; it show the strength of the evidence. might not have been the starting point for some of us The Government’s response to the Lords’ fairly who have campaigned on miscarriages of justice cases reasonable and measured amendment is to say that they such as those of the Birmingham Six and the Guildford have solved the problem of innocence by using the term Four. Long after the latter conviction was overturned, I “did not commit” about the offence. The Minister was worked with Gerry Conlon and his mother to try to asked again and again to tell us the difference. A brand ensure that there was an apology that fully vindicated of soup—I cannot remember which—used to be advertised them and voiced their innocence, because many people by the slogan, “The difference is in the thickness.” We in the system and the media were still trying to hide are being told that there is a big difference and the behind the pretence that it was a technical quashing of Minister is emphasising its importance, but he cannot the conviction but that the conviction itself was due and explain, specify, spell out or measure in any way the proper. For them, the issue is not compensation but the difference between whether someone can show that the absolute assertion of innocence. That was why offence evidence proves that they are innocent of an offence or was taken at the use and abuse of the term “innocence” whether they can show that it proves that they did not in the original Bill, but that was not the only issue. The commit the offence. Even some of the interventions burden of proof was altered and an attempt was made from the Government Back Benches seemed to rest to allow in the system for someone who had been more on whether there was evidence that an offence had convicted and imprisoned for a long period not to be been committed than on whether there was evidence entitled to compensation, because they could not prove that the person had actually committed the offence. beyond reasonable doubt that they did not commit the offence or their innocence. There are cases, of course, in which we know that gross and horrible offences have been committed, but Lord Pannick’s amendment accepts the Government’s that is very different from saying that that proves that a premise that there needs to be a definition and bases person who was charged and convicted of that offence that definition on many issues that have been tested in has committed it. At other times, offences that might or other cases, including, as we have heard from the Minister, might not have been committed are subject to questions the Adams case. Based on the working and practical use and conjecture. We might consider our experiences in of the law, the Lords amendment is wise and considered this House, as we might be thrown into the spotlight of in its suggestion that a new or newly discovered fact public judgment about whether or not we did something. should show conclusively that the evidence against the If we consider “did not commit” and “innocent” in that person at trial is so undermined that no conviction context, we might start to tease out some of the differences. could possibly be based on it. That is not a hard test, as 177 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 178 it does not open up things to conjecture. It basically of justice. As the Minister said, people who have been allows courts to do what many appeal courts and more wrongly convicted face enormous challenges in putting senior courts often have to do in considering the material their lives back together. evidence that would have been in front of a lower court However, those victims of miscarriages of justice are and to make a judgment on that basis. not given the sort of psychological support and remedial The Lords amendment would simply allow someone, therapy that the Government rightly make available to after their conviction has been quashed, to pursue released hostages, for example; to those who have had compensation on the basis that the quality of the new dire experiences while serving abroad in the military or evidence shows that there would not have been a conviction potentially in custody; or to those who have been held in the first place. By refusing that, the Government are hostage in civilian situations or as volunteers overseas. basically seeking to return to a situation in which the In those cases, highly specialised support and treatment courts, the police and the prosecution service could be is made available, yet the traumas and the adjustments seen as part of a nexus of pursuing and achieving a that they have to try to make are very similar to those of miscarriage of justice. The beauty of the Lords amendment victims of deep miscarriages of justice and a harrowing is that it would clearly take the lower court out of the time in prison, perhaps because of the nature of the frame, because it states that had the lower court known offence for which they were charged and the nature of about such evidence, it would never have achieved the the treatment they received, and not just from prison conviction. authorities, but from the prison population. I ask the Minister, in moving beyond the immediate detail of the Bill, as well as in considering compensation, 3pm which I believe the Government are misaddressing What we have not heard in the Government’s case in their amendment in lieu to the reasonable Lords today, or indeed at other times, is exactly what the amendment, to look to the other issues, because if he is state’s case would be in relation to some of those saying that compensation should not be the only answer compensation cases. Will the prosecutor and the police and the only thing we are thinking about, what other basically say, “No, we are contesting this, because the answer are the Government providing, because they quality of the evidence we had was good enough and have failed to move forward on the measures examined would have been worthy”? That would create, to use by the previous Government? Lord Denning’s terrible phrase, an “appalling vista.” We might end up with the law, as it is stated here, I find it hard to take seriously anything he said today, meaning that the state authorities will still use the new because he still cannot explain the difference, and exactly wording offered by the Government to make that suggestion the import of that difference, between what he is offering and to implicate the courts in that case as well. in his original clause and the amendment in lieu. The reality is that the only real difference—the valid and As we know, the courts have been able to make wise important difference—is that which is contained in the and sensitive judgments based on the balance of the Lords amendment. That is why the House should agree material available—the material that was available to Lords amendment 112. historically and that is available currently. Lord Pannick’s amendment would allow the courts to continue to behave in that measured and responsive way and to take full Hywel Williams: I wish to add my voice to those account of the fact that a conviction has been quashed, seeking to support Lords amendment 112. I am indebted but the issue of compensation does not flow automatically to my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor from that; it relates to testing whether or not the evidence, Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) for his guidance and advice had it been available the first time, would have undermined on the matter. He would have been here if that were the original conviction. That seems reasonable to me, possible. because it rests on what would have been reasonable for The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John a court to decide, and on the judicial system having McDonnell) referred to the long-term damage done to confidence in its norms, practices, assumptions and individuals, and indeed to their families, by such miscarriages presumptions. It would not rely on anybody else having of justice. In the case of the Cardiff Three, damage was to discharge an inordinate burden of proof of their clearly done not only to those individuals and their innocence—of whether they had committed an offence, families, but to an entire community. I believe that what if it was known to have been committed, or of whether happened was a public harm, because it damaged relations they committed an offence that might not be known between community groups in Cardiff. We must not and not even fully proven, because whether or not it was underestimate the importance of that case. committed and who was involved in the conspiracy could be a matter of conjecture. The Lords rejected the Government’s original intention, which was to place an expectation that the defendant I would also like to point out that victims of miscarriages would have to prove that of justice have not only been offended and insulted by the way the Government brought forward their original “the new or newly discovered fact shows beyond reasonable clause and their clumsy amendment in lieu; they are doubt that the person was innocent of the offence” also clear that the issue has never been simply about in order to gain compensation. As I said in an intervention, compensation alone. Indeed, I am very conscious that, that would have placed a heavier burden of proof on the along with Gerry Conlon and other victims of miscarriages individual, as he or she would have been forced to prove of justice, and along with the hon. Member for Hayes their innocence of a crime years or even decades after it and Harlington and others, we worked with the Ministry took place. The Lords instead passed their amendment of Justice in the previous Parliament to try to provide 112, which means that a person could be awarded some other remedies and support for victims of miscarriages compensation, provided that the evidence now used 179 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 180

[Hywel Williams] reason why such an unfair burden should be placed on defendants seeking to prove that a miscarriage of justice against them could not possibly result in a conviction at has taken place. Lords amendment 112 must be upheld. trial. That means that the evidence against a person is so undermined that no conviction could be based on it. Jeremy Corbyn: I rise to support Opposition Front Regrettably, the Government now intend to disagree Benchers. Lords amendment 112 uses the words, with the Lords and, in effect, reiterate their original “conclusively that the evidence against the person at trial is so intention by saying that the evidence would need to undermined that no conviction could possibly be based on it”. prove that the defendant “did not commit” the offence. I put it to the Minister that that is surely about as good We have already heard the debates about the semantic as we are going to get as an effective definition in taking difference between “did not commit” and “innocent”—I things forward. If we have to take the route of proving was imagining lawyers dancing on the head of a pin. that an offence was not committed, then I see all kinds That would once again place the burden of proof on the of injustices occurring further down the line. A point defendant. It asks the defendant to do something that is was made about Barry George. We all agree that the virtually impossible: to prove a negative—that they did murder of Jill Dando was disgusting, appalling and not do a certain thing—years after the trial has taken revolting, and obviously the person who did it should place. suffer the consequences of committing it. Barry George The Minister said that it would not be useful to was imprisoned and later released. Therefore, the court provide examples of individual cases. The Government’s had decided that he did not commit the offence. Has he attempts to change the law covering compensation in now to prove his innocence even though he has been cases in which an alleged miscarriage of justice has released by a court? That case is very well known, and I taken place runs contrary to case law, which cements suspect that very many others do not get that degree of the current position. Some cases have been suggested to publicity. Miscarriages of justice happen all the time. me by my right hon. Friend the Member for Dwyfor Like my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Meirionnydd. In R (Mullen) v. the Home Secretary, Harlington (John McDonnell), who has had to leave to Lord Bingham successfully argued that a miscarriage of chair a Public and Commercial Services Union group justice can occur where an individual has been wronged meeting but will return, I was very involved in the by Birmingham and Guildford cases. Indeed, Paul Hill, “a failure of the trial process”. who was the first person ever arrested under the Prevention of Terrorism Act 1974, was a constituent of mine. I The burden is not on the defendant to prove that they went through the whole business of the campaign, and were innocent. In R (AH) v. the Secretary of State for eventually those people were released and compensation Justice, the divisional court ruled that a miscarriage of was paid. However, I have to say two things about the justice occurs where an individual can prove compensation. First, there seemed to be a calculation “beyond reasonable doubt, that no reasonable jury... properly based on the expected income of those people throughout directed as to the law, could convict on the evidence now to be their lives, yet at the time of their arrest, the Guildford considered.” Four were not particularly well paid, working as part-time It is chilling to think that the cases of the Birmingham building workers in some cases, and one would not have Six, the Maguire Seven, the Guildford Four and, as I said that their economic prospects were particularly have mentioned, the Cardiff Three would not have good. But who knows what would have happened to satisfied the new test put forward by the Government. If their economic prospects had that terrible miscarriage Lords amendment 112 is overturned, individuals who of justice not happened? have already suffered a miscarriage of justice will be Secondly, one area of compensation was not effectively further wronged by not being able to access the taken into account. This was not just about the emotional compensation due to them—compensation meant to cost to the wider families—my hon. Friend the Member represent roughly the amount they would have received for Hayes and Harlington is correct that there have been in earnings had they not been imprisoned. some awful traumas in the families of the Guildford I do not believe that the Government have offered an Four, the Birmingham Six and many others—but the adequate reason for introducing this ill-advised provision. financial cost. In mounting a campaign to try to gain The Secretary of State, by refusing to change the the release of a convicted prisoner, particularly when Government’s proposals, is not only refusing to listen to they have been convicted of very serious offences, it is Members of the other place, but ignoring the advice of difficult to gain public support and even more difficult external organisations, such as Liberty and Justice, that to find anybody to help finance it, so in many cases the oppose the change. families paid out a great deal of money themselves. I urge Members to disagree with the Government The step forward that was taken on the release of the and insist on Lords amendment 112 in order to uphold Birmingham and Guildford people was the establishment the current position based on case law, which determines of the Criminal Cases Review Commission, from which that a miscarriage of justice has occurred if it can be we took very interesting evidence last week in the Justice shown Committee. There are a number of cases that it does not review because it does not think there is enough evidence “conclusively that the evidence against the person at trial is so to do so. When people come back and demand a undermined that no conviction could possibly be based on it”. re-examination, in some cases the CCRC will then As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack review. In the very large number of cases where it does Dromey) said, the presumption of innocence is a key review, it sends those cases back to the Court of Appeal principle of the justice system. Defendants should never and subsequently the individual is released. On that have to prove their own innocence. There can be no basis, compensation should be automatic—a given. If 181 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 182 someone has been convicted, the case has been reviewed With regard to the test, we have sought to provide an by the Court of Appeal, and they have been released, amendment that recognises that compensation should obviously the Court of Appeal must have had some be paid only to those who genuinely warrant it. What very good grounds for releasing them. I do not see why we require to achieve that is for the new fact to demonstrate they should then have to go through another hoop of that the applicant did not commit the crime—I addressed trying to get compensation by proving that they did not the various situations in which that could be shown—and commit an offence that they have been released for not that this should be evident from the reasons outlined in committing. We are getting into a big problem in this the Court of Appeal’s judgment that led to the quashing regard. of an applicant’s conviction. The applicant does not have to prove their innocence—in other words, the reversal of the burden of proof, which Members have 3.15 pm mentioned. That is simply not the case. The reasons I realise that the Minister is unlikely to change his why the applicant could not have committed the crime mind at this stage, but if we as a House do the right will be evident from what is outlined in a successful thing and accept the Lords amendment, that would be appeal. good. If we reject it, I hope that the Lords will return to The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack it and insist on it, because it protects some of the very Dromey) talked about the Sally Clark case. Obviously it good advances that we have made in dealing with is difficult to say how we would consider any applications miscarriages of justice. As my hon. Friend the Member where compensation would be payable under the new for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) pointed test in the abstract. We have heard much mention of out, the judicial system is not perfect. No legal system is their lordships’ discussion of this. On Report in the perfect. The jury system is as good as we will get, but it Lords, there was disagreement between two eminent is not perfect. Juries can make mistakes or misread lawyers as to the facts of the case that would be fundamental evidence; all kinds of things go wrong. Highly trained in consideration of an application for compensation. legal minds can misread evidence and get things wrong. Great lawyers can disagree about that, but what we do These things happen. Therefore, there must be the failsafe know, and what therefore cannot be in dispute, is that of an appeals system. There can be gross miscarriages the Secretary of State did grant compensation in that of justice, as we well know. There has to be a further case. safeguard, and that is where the review system and the Court of Appeal come in. Jack Dromey: Just for the record, Lord Saville of When society as a whole has got it wrong about an Newdigate, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, Lord individual, that individual cannot get the years back. Hope of Craighead and Lord Scott of Foscote, who are They cannot get their youth back, they cannot get their members of the Supreme Court, all supported life back, and they cannot get back all those years of amendment 112. Why is the Minister pitching this at the missing their children, their grandchildren, their friends, level of beyond reasonable doubt? their family and everything else, but they can at least get some financial compensation, which is society’s way of Damian Green: I should point out that Lord Brown saying that we got it wrong and we are determined to disagreed and that the Supreme Court’s judgment in the make sure that it does not happen again in future. Adams case was five to four. It genuinely is the case that We owe it to the families who campaigned for justice our most distinguished lawyers were very close to for the McGuire Seven, the Guildford Four, the disagreeing. Birmingham Six and so many others to say “Thank On the question of beyond reasonable doubt, the you” for the work they did in bringing about these ambiguity we seek to resolve with our amendment (a) is changes. I feel very sad that the Government now seem illustrated not just by the 13 cases currently awaiting in part to be undermining that progress by rejecting the consideration by the administrative court, but by the Lords amendment. I hope that the Minister will think disagreement between the lawyers in the House of Lords again on this subject. about whether Sally Clark would not have qualified for compensation under that test. The fact that the hon. Damian Green: With the leave of the House, Madam Gentleman could not tell my hon. Friend the Member Deputy Speaker, I will respond briefly to some of the for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) whether the test important points that have been made during this debate. he supports—the conclusive test—is one of beyond reasonable doubt or of the balance of probabilities Taking this back to first principles, the domestic reflects that test’s inherent ambiguity. courts have always made it clear that compensation should be paid when the new facts that form the basis There is nothing new in the “beyond reasonable on which a person’s conviction was quashed clearly doubt” test. The existing provision in section 133 of the show that the applicant did not commit the offence. Criminal Justice Act 1988 already requires a miscarriage However, the courts have never been able to define of justice to be shown to have occurred beyond reasonable without ambiguity a stable and robust test. Given the doubt. The Government, therefore, are not introducing courts’ difficulty in this area, we decided to create a a new test. The aspect on which the hon. Gentleman clear and definitive statutory test, the requirement for and the hon. Member for Foyle have laid such great which is supported by Parliament and others, including weight is already in the 1988 Act, which we are seeking the Joint Committee on Human Right, although I to improve. appreciate not by the hon. Member for Hayes and The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington made a Harlington (John McDonnell) and conceivably the hon. reasonable point. He does not think that Parliament Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), although he did not should get involved at all and that we should just leave it address the point. to the lawyers. I disagree with that argument and so do 183 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 184

[Damian Green] Graham, Richard McCartney, Karl Grant, Mrs Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne most people who have addressed the issue. I think we Gray, Mr James McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick should try to set out a clear, unambiguous basis for the Grayling, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen payment of compensation. Green, rh Damian McVey, Esther Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark I return to the basic point that where the new fact Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mercer, Patrick which underpins the quashing of the conviction clearly Griffiths, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen shows that the offence did not happen, that the applicant Gummer, Ben Miller, rh Maria could not have carried out the offence or that someone Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel else carried out the offence, that would qualify as a Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne miscarriage of justice. That seems to me to be clearer Hames, Duncan Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew and less ambiguous than what we have at the moment. Hammond, rh Mr Philip Moore, rh Michael It will not deny anyone who genuinely deserves Hands, Greg Mordaunt, Penny compensation from getting it. Harper, Mr Mark Morgan, Nicky Harrington, Richard Morris, Anne Marie Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords Harris, Rebecca Morris, James amendment 112. Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen The House divided: Ayes 292, Noes 239. Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Division No. 202] [3.22 pm Hayes, rh Mr John Mundell, rh David Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa AYES Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll Adams, Nigel Chishti, Rehman Henderson, Gordon Murrison, Dr Andrew Afriyie, Adam Chope, Mr Christopher Herbert, rh Nick Neill, Robert Aldous, Peter Clappison, Mr James Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Amess, Mr David Clark, rh Greg Hoban, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hollingbery, George Nokes, Caroline Bacon, Mr Richard Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip Norman, Jesse Baker, Norman Coffey, Dr Thérèse Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Baker, Steve Collins, Damian Hopkins, Kris Offord, Dr Matthew Baldry, rh Sir Tony Colvile, Oliver Horwood, Martin Opperman, Guy Baldwin, Harriett Cox, Mr Geoffrey Howarth, Sir Gerald Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Barclay, Stephen Crabb, Stephen Howell, John Paice, rh Sir James Barker, rh Gregory Crockart, Mike Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Parish, Neil Baron, Mr John Crouch, Tracey Hunter, Mark Patel, Priti Bebb, Guto Davies, David T. C. Huppert, Dr Julian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Beith, rh Sir Alan (Monmouth) Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark Bellingham, Mr Henry Davies, Glyn James, Margot Penning, Mike Benyon, Richard Davies, Philip Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Beresford, Sir Paul Davis, rh Mr David Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Berry, Jake Dinenage, Caroline Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Bingham, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Binley, Mr Brian Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, rh Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Birtwistle, Gordon Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Blackman, Bob Drax, Richard Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Blackwood, Nicola Duddridge, James Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Blunt, Mr Crispin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pritchard, Mark Boles, Nick Ellis, Michael Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Bone, Mr Peter Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Sir Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Brady, Mr Graham Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Randall, rh Sir John Brake, rh Tom Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark Bray, Angie Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Bridgen, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brine, Steve Fallon, rh Michael Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Brokenshire, James Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Dr Phillip Rosindell, Andrew Brooke, Annette Field, Mark Leech, Mr John Rudd, Amber Browne, Mr Jeremy Foster, rh Mr Don Lefroy, Jeremy Ruffley, Mr David Bruce, Fiona Fox,rhDrLiam Leslie, Charlotte Russell, Sir Bob Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Francois, rh Mr Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David Burley, Mr Aidan Freeman, George Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura Burns, Conor Freer, Mike Lewis, Dr Julian Scott, Mr Lee Burrowes, Mr David Fuller, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Burstow, rh Paul Garnier, Sir Edward Lloyd, Stephen Sharma, Alok Burt, rh Alistair Garnier, Mark Loughton, Tim Shelbrooke, Alec Burt, Lorely Gauke, Mr David Luff, Sir Peter Simpson, Mr Keith Byles, Dan George, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris Cable, rh Vince Gibb, Mr Nick Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Henry Cairns, Alun Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Julian Carmichael, Neil Glen, John Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Cash, Mr William Goldsmith, Zac McCartney, Jason Soames, rh Nicholas 185 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 186

Soubry, Anna Walker, Mr Charles Flello, Robert McFadden, rh Mr Pat Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Walker, Mr Robin Flint, rh Caroline McGovern, Alison Spencer, Mr Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Jim Stanley, rh Sir John Walter, Mr Robert Francis, Dr Hywel McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Stephenson, Andrew Ward, Mr David Gapes, Mike McKechin, Ann Stewart, Bob Watkinson, Dame Angela Gardiner, Barry McKenzie, Mr Iain Stewart, Iain Weatherley, Mike Gilmore, Sheila McKinnell, Catherine Stewart, Rory Webb, Steve Glass, Pat Meale, Sir Alan Streeter, Mr Gary Wharton, James Glindon, Mrs Mary Mearns, Ian Stride, Mel Wheeler, Heather Goodman, Helen Miller, Andrew Stuart, Mr Graham White, Chris Greatrex, Tom Mitchell, Austin Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Whittaker, Craig Green, Kate Moon, Mrs Madeleine Sturdy, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Greenwood, Lilian Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Swales, Ian Wiggin, Bill Gwynne, Andrew Morris, Grahame M. Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Willetts, rh Mr David Hamilton, Mr David (Easington) Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Mr Mark Hamilton, Fabian Mudie, Mr George Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Roger Hanson, rh Mr David Munn, Meg Thornton, Mike Willott, Jenny Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr Jim Thurso, John Wilson, Mr Rob Harris, Mr Tom Murphy, rh Paul Timpson, Mr Edward Wright, Jeremy Havard, Mr Dai Murray, Ian Tomlinson, Justin Wright, Simon Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Tredinnick, David Yeo, Mr Tim Hemming, John Onwurah, Chi Truss, Elizabeth Young, rh Sir George Hendrick, Mark Osborne, Sandra Turner, Mr Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert Tyrie, Mr Andrew Tellers for the Ayes: Hermon, Lady Paisley, Ian Vaizey, Mr Edward Gavin Barwell and Heyes, David Pearce, Teresa Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Karen Bradley Hillier, Meg Pound, Stephen Hodge, rh Margaret Qureshi, Yasmin Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Raynsford, rh Mr Nick NOES Hoey, Kate Reed, Mr Jamie Abbott, Ms Diane Coaker, Vernon Hood, Mr Jim Reeves, Rachel Abrahams, Debbie Coffey, Ann Howarth, rh Mr George Reynolds, Emma Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Connarty, Michael Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Jonathan Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs Linda Alexander, Heidi Cooper, rh Yvette Jackson, Glenda Ritchie, Ms Margaret Ali, Rushanara Corbyn, Jeremy James, Mrs Siân C. Robertson, John Allen, Mr Graham Crausby, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Ashworth, Jonathan Creagh, Mary Jarvis, Dan Rotheram, Steve Austin, Ian Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Bailey, Mr Adrian Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Bain, Mr William Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Ruane, Chris Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Barron, rh Kevin Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Sarwar, Anas Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Sir Tony Joyce, Eric Sawford, Andy Beckett, rh Margaret Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Seabeck, Alison Begg, Dame Anne Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Shannon, Jim Benn, rh Hilary Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Sharma, Mr Virendra Benton, Mr Joe Davidson, Mr Ian Khan, rh Sadiq Sheerman, Mr Barry Berger, Luciana Davies, Geraint Lammy, rh Mr David Sheridan, Jim Betts, Mr Clive De Piero, Gloria Lavery, Ian Shuker, Gavin Blackman-Woods, Roberta Denham, rh Mr John Lazarowicz, Mark Simpson, David Blears, rh Hazel Dobson, rh Frank Leslie, Chris Skinner, Mr Dennis Blenkinsop, Tom Docherty, Thomas Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Slaughter, Mr Andy Blomfield, Paul Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Angela Blunkett, rh Mr David Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Nick Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Doran, Mr Frank Long, Naomi Spellar, rh Mr John Brennan, Kevin Doughty, Stephen Love, Mr Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, Lyn Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Ian Teather, Sarah Brown, Mr Russell Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth Bryant, Chris Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Shabana Thornberry, Emily Burden, Richard Durkan, Mark Malhotra, Seema Timms, rh Stephen Burnham, rh Andy Eagle, Ms Angela Mann, John Trickett, Jon Byrne, rh Mr Liam Eagle, Maria Marsden, Mr Gordon Turner, Karl Campbell, Mr Alan Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve Twigg, Derek Campbell, Mr Gregory Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Stephen Campbell, Mr Ronnie Engel, Natascha McCarthy, Kerry Umunna, Mr Chuka Caton, Martin Esterson, Bill McClymont, Gregg Vaz, rh Keith Chapman, Jenny Evans, Chris McCrea, Dr William Vaz, Valerie Clark, Katy Farrelly, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Walley, Joan Clarke, rh Mr Tom Field, rh Mr Frank McDonald, Andy Watson, Mr Tom Clwyd, rh Ann Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, John Watts, Mr Dave 187 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 188

Whitehead, Dr Alan Woodcock, John Grayling, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen Williams, Hywel Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Green, rh Damian McVey, Esther Williamson, Chris Wright, David Greening, rh Justine Menzies, Mark Wilson, Phil Wright, Mr Iain Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Mercer, Patrick Wilson, Sammy Griffiths, Andrew Metcalfe, Stephen Winnick, Mr David Tellers for the Noes: Gummer, Ben Miller, rh Maria Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Bridget Phillipson and Gyimah, Mr Sam Mills, Nigel Wood, Mike Julie Hilling Halfon, Robert Milton, Anne Hames, Duncan Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Question accordingly agreed to. Hammond, rh Mr Philip Moore, rh Michael Hands, Greg Mordaunt, Penny Lords amendment 112 disagreed to. Harper, Mr Mark Morgan, Nicky Amendment (a) proposed in lieu of Lords amendment Harrington, Richard Morris, Anne Marie 112.—(Damian Green.) Harris, Rebecca Morris, James Hart, Simon Mosley, Stephen Question put, That the amendment be made. Harvey, Sir Nick Mowat, David The House divided: Ayes 297, Noes 238. Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Hayes, rh Mr John Mundell, rh David Division No. 203] [3.36 pm Heald, Oliver Munt, Tessa Heaton-Harris, Chris Murray, Sheryll AYES Henderson, Gordon Murrison, Dr Andrew Adams, Nigel Chope, Mr Christopher Herbert, rh Nick Neill, Robert Afriyie, Adam Clappison, Mr James Hinds, Damian Newmark, Mr Brooks Aldous, Peter Clark, rh Greg Hoban, Mr Mark Newton, Sarah Amess, Mr David Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hollingbery, George Nokes, Caroline Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hollobone, Mr Philip Norman, Jesse Bacon, Mr Richard Coffey, Dr Thérèse Holloway, Mr Adam Nuttall, Mr David Baker, Norman Collins, Damian Hopkins, Kris Offord, Dr Matthew Baker, Steve Colvile, Oliver Horwood, Martin Opperman, Guy Baldry, rh Sir Tony Cox, Mr Geoffrey Howarth, Sir Gerald Ottaway, rh Sir Richard Baldwin, Harriett Crabb, Stephen Howell, John Paice, rh Sir James Barclay, Stephen Crockart, Mike Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Parish, Neil Barker, rh Gregory Crouch, Tracey Hunter, Mark Patel, Priti Baron, Mr John Davies, David T. C. Huppert, Dr Julian Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bebb, Guto (Monmouth) Hurd, Mr Nick Pawsey, Mark Beith, rh Sir Alan Davies, Glyn James, Margot Penning, Mike Bellingham, Mr Henry Davies, Philip Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Benyon, Richard Davis, rh Mr David Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Berry, Jake Dinenage, Caroline Johnson, Gareth Perry, Claire Bingham, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Jones, Andrew Phillips, Stephen Binley, Mr Brian Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jones, rh Mr David Pickles, rh Mr Eric Birtwistle, Gordon Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Blackman, Bob Drax, Richard Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Blackwood, Nicola Duddridge, James Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark Blunt, Mr Crispin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pritchard, Mark Boles, Nick Ellis, Michael Kirby, Simon Pugh, John Bone, Mr Peter Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Sir Greg Raab, Mr Dominic Brady, Mr Graham Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Randall, rh Sir John Brake, rh Tom Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Reckless, Mark Bray, Angie Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Redwood, rh Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Reid, Mr Alan Bridgen, Andrew Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brine, Steve Fallon, rh Michael Laws, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Brokenshire, James Featherstone, Lynne Lee, Dr Phillip Rosindell, Andrew Brooke, Annette Field, Mark Leech, Mr John Rudd, Amber Browne, Mr Jeremy Foster, rh Mr Don Lefroy, Jeremy Ruffley, Mr David Bruce, Fiona Fox,rhDrLiam Leslie, Charlotte Russell, Sir Bob Bruce, rh Sir Malcolm Francois, rh Mr Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rutley, David Buckland, Mr Robert Freeman, George Lewis, Brandon Sandys, Laura Burley, Mr Aidan Freer, Mike Lewis, Dr Julian Scott, Mr Lee Burns, Conor Fuller, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Selous, Andrew Burrowes, Mr David Garnier, Sir Edward Lloyd, Stephen Sharma, Alok Burstow, rh Paul Garnier, Mark Loughton, Tim Shelbrooke, Alec Burt, rh Alistair Gauke, Mr David Luff, Sir Peter Shepherd, Sir Richard Burt, Lorely George, Andrew Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Byles, Dan Gibb, Mr Nick Maude, rh Mr Francis Skidmore, Chris Cable, rh Vince Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Henry Cairns, Alun Glen, John Maynard, Paul Smith, Julian Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Goldsmith, Zac McCartney, Jason Smith, Sir Robert Carmichael, Neil Graham, Richard McCartney, Karl Soames, rh Nicholas Cash, Mr William Grant, Mrs Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Soubry, Anna Chishti, Rehman Gray, Mr James McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline 189 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 190

Spencer, Mr Mark Walker, Mr Robin Field, rh Mr Frank McDonald, Andy Stanley, rh Sir John Wallace, Mr Ben Fitzpatrick, Jim McDonnell, John Stephenson, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Flello, Robert McFadden, rh Mr Pat Stevenson, John Ward, Mr David Flint, rh Caroline McGovern, Alison Stewart, Bob Watkinson, Dame Angela Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Jim Stewart, Iain Weatherley, Mike Francis, Dr Hywel McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Stewart, Rory Webb, Steve Gapes, Mike McKechin, Ann Streeter, Mr Gary Wharton, James Gardiner, Barry McKenzie, Mr Iain Stride, Mel Wheeler, Heather Gilmore, Sheila McKinnell, Catherine Stuart, Mr Graham White, Chris Glass, Pat Meale, Sir Alan Stunell, rh Sir Andrew Whittaker, Craig Glindon, Mrs Mary Mearns, Ian Sturdy, Julian Whittingdale, Mr John Goodman, Helen Miller, Andrew Swales, Ian Wiggin, Bill Greatrex, Tom Mitchell, Austin Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Willetts, rh Mr David Green, Kate Moon, Mrs Madeleine Syms, Mr Robert Williams, Mr Mark Greenwood, Lilian Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Tapsell, rh Sir Peter Williams, Roger Gwynne, Andrew Morris, Grahame M. Thornton, Mike Williamson, Gavin Hamilton, Mr David (Easington) Thurso, John Willott, Jenny Hamilton, Fabian Mudie, Mr George Timpson, Mr Edward Wilson, Mr Rob Hanson, rh Mr David Munn, Meg Tomlinson, Justin Wright, Jeremy Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr Jim Tredinnick, David Wright, Simon Harris, Mr Tom Murphy, rh Paul Havard, Mr Dai Murray, Ian Truss, Elizabeth Yeo, Mr Tim Turner, Mr Andrew Healey, rh John O’Donnell, Fiona Young, rh Sir George Tyrie, Mr Andrew Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Zahawi, Nadhim Vaizey, Mr Edward Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Vara, Mr Shailesh Tellers for the Ayes: Hermon, Lady Owen, Albert Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Karen Bradley and Heyes, David Paisley, Ian Walker, Mr Charles Gavin Barwell Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Hodge, rh Margaret Pound, Stephen NOES Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Hoey, Kate Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Abbott, Ms Diane Clwyd, rh Ann Hood, Mr Jim Reed, Mr Jamie Abrahams, Debbie Coaker, Vernon Howarth, rh Mr George Reeves, Rachel Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Coffey, Ann Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Emma Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Connarty, Michael Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Jonathan Alexander, Heidi Cooper, Rosie Jackson, Glenda Riordan, Mrs Linda Ali, Rushanara Cooper, rh Yvette James, Mrs Siân C. Ritchie, Ms Margaret Allen, Mr Graham Corbyn, Jeremy Jamieson, Cathy Robertson, John Ashworth, Jonathan Crausby, Mr David Jarvis, Dan Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Austin, Ian Creagh, Mary Johnson, rh Alan Rotheram, Steve Bailey, Mr Adrian Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Roy, Mr Frank Bain, Mr William Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Roy, Lindsay Banks, Gordon Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Ruane, Chris Barron, rh Kevin Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Dame Tessa Sarwar, Anas Beckett, rh Margaret Cunningham, Sir Tony Joyce, Eric Sawford, Andy Begg, Dame Anne Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Seabeck, Alison Benn, rh Hilary Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Shannon, Jim Benton, Mr Joe Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Sharma, Mr Virendra Berger, Luciana Davidson, Mr Ian Khan, rh Sadiq Sheerman, Mr Barry Betts, Mr Clive Davies, Geraint Lammy, rh Mr David Sheridan, Jim Blackman-Woods, Roberta De Piero, Gloria Lavery, Ian Shuker, Gavin Blears, rh Hazel Denham, rh Mr John Lazarowicz, Mark Simpson, David Blenkinsop, Tom Dobson, rh Frank Leslie, Chris Skinner, Mr Dennis Blomfield, Paul Docherty, Thomas Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Slaughter, Mr Andy Blunkett, rh Mr David Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Angela Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Smith, Nick Brennan, Kevin Doran, Mr Frank Long, Naomi Spellar, rh Mr John Brown, Lyn Doughty, Stephen Love, Mr Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Brown, Mr Russell Doyle, Gemma Lucas, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Bryant, Chris Dromey, Jack Mactaggart, Fiona Thornberry, Emily Burden, Richard Dugher, Michael Mahmood, Shabana Timms, rh Stephen Burnham, rh Andy Durkan, Mark Malhotra, Seema Trickett, Jon Byrne, rh Mr Liam Eagle, Ms Angela Mann, John Turner, Karl Campbell, Mr Alan Eagle, Maria Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Derek Campbell, Mr Gregory Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve Twigg, Stephen Campbell, Mr Ronnie Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael Umunna, Mr Chuka Caton, Martin Engel, Natascha McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, rh Keith Chapman, Jenny Esterson, Bill McClymont, Gregg Vaz, Valerie Clark, Katy Evans, Chris McCrea, Dr William Walley, Joan Clarke, rh Mr Tom Farrelly, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Watson, Mr Tom 191 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 192

Watts, Mr Dave Wood, Mike changes support the view that the Lords have put Whitehead, Dr Alan Woodcock, John forward. Will the Minister confirm that the position of Williams, Hywel Woodward, rh Mr Shaun those of religious persuasion and religious beliefs will Williamson, Chris Wright, David not be in any way changed? Wilson, Phil Wright, Mr Iain Wilson, Sammy Tellers for the Noes: Norman Baker: Yes, I am happy to deal with the issue Winnick, Mr David Julie Hilling and of religious beliefs. Lords amendments 2 and 19 respond Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Bridget Phillipson to concerns by the Joint Committee on Human Rights relating to the provision in clauses 1 and 21 that require Question accordingly agreed to. a court to avoid, so far as practicable, imposing prohibitions Amendment (a) made in lieu of Lords amendment 112. or requirements in an injunction or a criminal behaviour order that would conflict with a respondent’s religious beliefs. The amendments remove this wording, as the Clause 1 right to hold a religious belief is absolute. It was simply the manifestation of a person’s religious beliefs that we POWER TO GRANT INJUNCTIONS intended the provision to capture, but a court would be obliged to consider this in any case to comply with its The Minister for Crime Prevention (Norman Baker): I obligations under the Human Rights Act. That being beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords the case, the neatest solution is simply to remove the amendments 1 to 68, 138 and 168. provision. That is what has happened, and I hope that Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. The that deals with the hon. Gentleman’s point. House is agreeing with Lords amendment 1 only, with which we will consider Lords amendments 2 to 111. Mark Field: While I agree with the Minister that we should agree with what the Lords have had to say on Norman Baker: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am this matter, I do not necessarily think that it is the result so keen to agree that I got carried away. of the workings of democracy—it is anything but. He The amendments deal with the new antisocial behaviour slightly trivialised the issue of carol singers, but there is powers in parts 1 to 6 of the Bill, and I will deal briefly a bigger nuisance concern. For example, there might be with each one in turn. Members will, I am sure, have a sense that if trick or treating was being clamped down watched with interest the proceedings in the House of on, it would be unfair not to clamp down on other Lords on the test for issuing an injunction in part 1 of activities, such as carol singing. I think that that is what the Bill. Because of the clear vote in the Lords, where might have been behind the Lords thoughts on this there seems to be a majority, and in the light of that matter. debate, the Government has accepted that the test for an injunction should be amended. Lords amendments 1 Norman Baker: I am not quite sure what was in the and 5 will provide for a two-tier test, and the nuisance Lords thoughts. Other examples were given—bellringers or annoyance test will continue to be used to deal with and so on—and nobody in this country would want, in housing-related antisocial behaviour. In all other any way, to limit the activities of bellringers. I fear that circumstances, the test of harassment, alarm or distress the Government’s honest attempt to deal with genuine will apply. antisocial behaviour has been misconstrued, either The Government believes that the fears raised in the inadvertently or otherwise, but we are where we are. We Lords and by campaign groups were unfounded, and have accepted the form of words—“harassment, alarm our view is shared by the Law Society and housing or distress”—which was wanted by their lordships. providers who have been using the nuisance or annoyance The next set of amendments in this group relate to test responsibly and proportionately for more than a under-18s. Lords amendments 3, 4 and 12 enable an decade. The suggestion was made that we somehow applicant for an injunction to apply to the youth court wanted to curtail the activities of carol singers. It is for permission to have cases involving respondents, who slightly difficult to believe that any Government would are both over and under 18 years of age, to be heard want to do that, and that we would mis-write legislation together in the youth court if it is in the interests of to enable that to occur. We are then expected to believe justice to do so. If the youth court does not grant the that a local council or police officer would want to use application, the hearings will be separated, with the adults the legislation to ban carol singers. We are then expected in the county court and the under-18s in the youth to believe that any court in the land would deem it court. By linking these hearings, we will help to put proportionate, just and convenient to ban carol singers. victims first. Of course, by the time a court had so decided, several weeks on, the carol singers would have left the place Lords amendment 10 brings us to the prohibitions where they were singing and it would not be possible to that can be included in an injunction where the respondent capture them. I think that that example shows some of is under 18. As originally drafted, clause 12 meant that the exaggeration and scaremongering that have occurred the injunction could be used to exclude a respondent of on this proposal. The Lords have spoken, however, and any age from his or her home in cases of violence or risk we have listened carefully. It is a democratic Parliament to others. However, in the Lords, concerns were expressed, and we have therefore accepted, largely, the substance by my Liberal Democrat colleague Baroness Hamwee, of Lord Dear’s amendments. on whether it would ever be appropriate to exclude under-18s from their own home on the grounds of Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I do not take antisocial behaviour. Lords amendment 10 limits the exception to the Minister’s comments, but those of exclusion provisions to injunctions where the respondent religious persuasion who are concerned about the proposed is over 18. Where it is in the best interests of the child to 193 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 194 be removed from the family home, there are sufficient have the same protections in law as anyone else, and powers in other safeguarding legislation to ensure that that is to be welcomed. There are many things in the Bill that is possible without the need to resort to an injunction. on which we might disagree, but on this issue, the House Other amendments and provisions in this group relate is united. These provisions will take us forward. to tenancy injunctions, the criminal behaviour order, The Government’s firearms amendments seem fairly dispersal powers, the public spaces protection order, the minor: one closes the loophole around antique firearms, recovery of possession of dwelling houses and the issuing which seems perfectly sensible, while the other relates to of statutory guidance. I will be very happy to pick up on suspended sentences. Currently, a three-year jail term any questions that Members have on any of those bans someone from owning a firearm for life and a particular matters. three-month sentence leads to a five-year ban. The amendment treats a three-month suspended sentence in Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): I am grateful the same way, which we welcome, although it does not to the Minister for outlining how the Government do go far enough. When someone has a conviction, the not intend to oppose the Lords amendments, although police have grounds for refusing an application. The it is interesting that he bows to the wisdom of the Lords problem comes when there is no conviction but the police on this issue, but not on miscarriages of justice. The have evidence of violent behaviour in the past. That was Lords amendments, particularly on the threshold for why we wanted an amendment to provide that where injunctions to prevent nuisance and annoyance, improve the police found credible evidence of domestic violence, the Bill, taking the threshold from “nuisance and or drug or alcohol abuse, a firearms licence could be annoyance” to “harassment, alarm or distress”, but refused. No sensible gun owner has anything to fear overall we feel that the Bill still weakens the powers from such a provision. against antisocial behaviour, which is of growing concern The case of Michael Atherton is the one that I must to people. It is a badly worded Bill thrown together on refer to here. He was convicted of the murders of his the usual principle of, “We must do something. This is partner, Susan McGoldrick, her sister and her niece. He something. Therefore, we must do it”, which the had a long history of domestic violence, but he was still Government seem to operate under. Large parts of the allowed to own four shotguns. The licensing officer’s Bill will not offer people the protection they need. comments on his application were chilling. He wrote: “Four domestics, last one 24/4/04, was cautioned for assault. Mark Field: I think the hon. Lady is being too Still resides with partner and son and daughter. Would like to sceptical about the genesis of these provisions. As a refuse, have we sufficient to refuse re public safety?” central London MP, I do not think that everything Durham constabulary decided it did not have sufficient about the old ASBO regime was bad; elements worked grounds to refuse and people died as a result. This is an well for many of my constituents. I know that Westminster issue that the Opposition will want to return to in the City council has expressed concerns, which were raised future because it is essential to keep women safe. in another place, but it is still a little unfair to suggest that nothing good is coming from the Bill. We will have 4pm to see how it works in practice. Jim Shannon: I sympathise greatly and understand the issue that the hon. Lady raises. In the case of Helen Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes the important someone against whom a domestic complaint has been point that in many cases ASBOs worked. I have seen made to the police which is unsubstantiated, how would them work in my own area, as he has in his. As he said, that be taken care of, in the Opposition’s view, under it remains to be seen how the Bill will work, but I look impending legislation? Incidents are not always taken as forward to debating it in the future. proof; there may be only complaints that are not I want to comment on a number of other amendments substantiated. in this group that the Minister did not mention, but I do not intend to take up too much of the House’s time. We Helen Jones: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. are grateful that the Government have accepted the He is right that incidents of domestic violence do not Lords amendments on forced marriage originally moved always make it to court for a number of reasons, usually on Report by my noble Friend Baroness Thornton and involving the vulnerability of the victims, but in such later taken up by the Government, who tabled similar cases the police would have to find credible evidence of amendments ensuring that where a person lacks capacity domestic violence or drug or alcohol abuse, and that an offence would be committed where conduct was refusal could be challenged in court. As a first premise, carried out for the purpose of forcing someone into a we should be clear that we should not put guns in the marriage. It is arguable, I agree, that this is the case hands of people with such a record. We know that there under present law, but the amendment makes it clear. It are people who need to hold guns for a number of is sensible because it ensures that where a person is reasons. For example, farmers—some of my relatives incapable of understanding the implications of their are farmers—and vets do, but we should not be putting decision, the new offence can be committed even without guns into the hands of people with a record of domestic violence, threats or coercion. This will also apply in violence. I hope that in time the Government will see Scotland. that. Much work still needs to be done on forced marriage, I shall comment briefly on the amendments to deal and I commend the work of the forced marriage unit with child sexual exploitation, particularly amendment 76, and all those working in this area, but the House is which allows closure of premises suspected of harbouring making it clear in the Bill that British children and those who have committed child abuse. We know from young people, whatever the colour of their skin, and the cases that have happened in Rochdale, Oxford and including the most vulnerable who lack capacity, will other towns in this country how horrific some of this 195 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 196

[Helen Jones] prevent nuisance and annoyance, or IPNA—the issue that has received perhaps the most attention—in Lords abuse has been. The reviews from Oxford and Rochdale amendments 1 to 5. This is a welcome change, and I pay were very clear that certain premises were repeatedly great tribute to my hon. Friend the Minister for his used for grooming and sexual exploitation. It was, in my work in getting us to this place. view, impossible for the proprietors of those premises During the pre-legislative scrutiny, the Home Affairs not to know what was taking place there. In Oxford it Select Committee said there was a risk that the provisions was guest houses in particular, and it was horrific could be interpreted as being too broad. The Minister beyond belief. has quite rightly described why some of the stories that When the Minister responds to the debate, will he were going round—for example, about how carol singing clarify one point in particular? For a closure order there would be prevented—were simply not true but were has to be reasonable suspicion that a criminal offence good debating points. We made it clear that we had real has occurred. This could be a sexual offence against a concerns with the provisions as they stood. I am pleased child, but the obvious thing that we are likely to be that, as a result of the changes in the other place, we dealing with in such situations is grooming, and the now have something that is much more proportionate. offence of grooming is quite a hard one to establish. We have moved away from causing nuisance and annoyance That is why there are few convictions for it. The adult in the general sense to something more serious. That is has to have met and communicated with the child twice, definitely right, because all of us are quite capable, I am and the adult must then meet the child and, at that time, sure, of causing nuisance or annoyance to people on the offender must have the intention of committing a various occasions. relevant sexual offence. Perhaps the Minister could clarify for us how the Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Some more than police will have a reasonable suspicion of all aspects of others. the offence of grooming, and whether the difficulties in establishing this will prevent the power from being used. Dr Huppert: I hope my hon. Friend would join me in If that is found to be the case as time goes on, will he being in the annoying category. undertake to come back to the House with further proposals if necessary? This issue is causing deep disquiet Richard Fuller: It would be a club of one. in some of our communities, and rightly so. When we are talking about protecting children, we should err on Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I the side of caution—on the side of children, as it were, think we go through the Chair. rather than anyone else. Dr Huppert: I was somewhat surprised by the original Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Before my hon. amendment passed in the other place, which was backed Friend sits down, will she say whether she, like me, by many, including Labour peers, because it wrote into welcomes Lords amendment 69, which strengthens the law discrimination that I would not be happy with. We penalties for attacks by dogs, but does she regret, as I have rules about behaviour that is unfair—behaviour do, the fact that the Government have not accepted that is too harsh—but I was really surprised to see an amendments to introduce dog control notices or to amendment that said there should be one set of rules continue to review the progress of these changes? for people in social housing and a completely different set of rules for people in private housing. If someone’s Helen Jones: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I behaviour is causing problems that are sufficiently serious well recall the horrific case in her constituency. I do to be dealt with under the Bill, the form of tenure regret the fact that the Government did not accept what should not matter. I was very disappointed by that were reasonable suggestions on that issue. I hope we will amendment and very pleased that the Government be able to return to them in future, because we have seen corrected it. What we now have corrects that problem some awful attacks, against children in particular but and I am happy to support it, because I would not have also against adults. This is something we will have to been able to support the previous version from the deal with in future. Lords. We have reservations about some of the Lords amendments, but all in all we are glad that the Government Jack Dromey: Just for the record, the proposal for a have accepted them. I look forward to hearing the tenure-neutral approach in fact came from Labour Lords. Minister’s reply to some of my queries when he sums up. Dr Huppert: I do not have the list of exactly who Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): There is a huge proposed what. The Government amendment we have range of issues to cover in this group of amendments. I is neutral; the one that Labour peers supported in the will not even try to touch on them all, but will talk other place was not tenure-neutral. I hope the hon. about a few that I am particularly concerned about and Gentleman agrees that that was a flaw in it, although have raised on a number of occasions. the other principle was there. This Bill started with pre-legislative scrutiny. It is I welcome the change, although I remain surprised by telling, to me at least, that quite a number of the the position of the Opposition, who felt that the version amendments made in the other place were originally that left this place was both too draconian and too recommended during pre-legislative scrutiny. Perhaps if liberal. I am glad that their position has moved in a the Government looked at pre-legislative scrutiny earlier, more liberal direction. The new approach is far better we might get there somewhat faster. With that in mind, than the failed system of ASBOs, which many young I particularly welcome the changes to the injunction to people collected as a badge of honour. A huge number 197 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 198 of people broke them; they simply did not work. I think have managed to get some changes made in the House that this non-criminalising approach will work much of Lords. People must be questioned within an hour of better. detention, reviews must take place within two hours of Let me turn now to some of the other issues. Lords that, and people’s right to consult a solicitor is made amendment 10 is important and concerns the principle clear. That fundamental right was omitted by the Terrorism that we should not be using these rules to throw children Act when it was passed by the last Government. There out of their own homes. The Lords pushed for that, and is much more to be done about that as well, but I am it is a shame that we did not manage to get it fixed in very pleased with all the amendments. I commend the this place. The importance of care for the under-18s Minister and his team for their work, and look forward should have been emphasised more strongly during the to our passing the amendments promptly. Bill’s earlier stages, and I am glad that it has been emphasised more strongly now. This is another of the Mark Field: I agree with the hon. Member for Cambridge issues that were dealt with by the Home Affairs Committee. (Dr Huppert) that it is a shame that the Government I am also pleased that Lords amendment 11 proposes did not take more account of the pre-legislative scrutiny, the removal of clause 13, because it discriminated on relying instead on the other place. I accept that all too the basis of tenure. often, whichever Government are in play, the electoral Lords amendments 23 and 24 deal with the rights of arithmetic ensures that legislation is rushed through free expression and free assembly. The Home Affairs and guillotined here in the House of Commons, and Committee recommended that we should ensure that some sensible suggestions are then made in the House dispersal powers were not used in a way that could of Lords, many of which—as in this instance—we end damage those rights. Before my hon. Friend became a up not seeking to oppose. Given the relative paucity of Minister in this Department, the Government moved legislation in the House of Commons over the next some of the way towards this, and I am glad that he has 15 months, I hope that we will pay the House a little now been able to persuade them to move the whole way, more respect, and ensure that whatever Bills come before so that we can protect all forms of free expression and us during the fifth year of this five-year Parliament are free assembly. given proper scrutiny. Lords amendments 59 to 64 deal with cases of riot. I support what the Government are doing in Lords Riot is of course very serious, and we have already seen amendments 40, 41 and 44 to 47, which relate to public what it can lead to in this country. As a result of what bodies that can issue a public spaces protection order. happened, the Prime Minister said that he wanted stronger That has particular resonance in my constituency, and I powers to deal with the families of people who were am glad that a number of friends—in the broadest rioting. Many of us felt that, although we could understand sense—of the City of London corporation in another the tensions that existed at the time, his suggestion went place were able to make some important changes. Numerous too far. It did not seem appropriate to throw everyone other bodies which operate open spaces under local out of a house because a 16-year-old child had committed Acts—such as the Wimbledon and Putney commons a minor offence where a riot was happening. I do not in conservators, to name but two of them—will also benefit any sense condone either the riot or the behaviour, but from what the Government are doing. The proposed throwing an entire family out of their home seems to be new clause would enable bodies other than local authorities a disproportionate response. I pay tribute to my hon. administering open spaces under byelaws to use public Friend the Minister for his work in this regard, which spaces protection orders. I believe this is particularly has led to the proposal that an automatic eviction relevant to trustees or local conservators who operate should take place only if the offence is committed by an under byelaws inferred by private Acts of Parliament, adult, and only if it is a serious, indictable offence. A many of which go back not just many decades but some trivial offence that happened to be committed near a centuries. I hope the Minister agrees with that point. riot would not lead to such an eviction; nor would an The City of London corporation operates some of offence committed by a child. the most important open spaces in London and the Finally, let me raise two issues that we had very little south-east, including Epping forest and Hampstead time to discuss during our initial debates in this House, heath. There are also important local authority parks. and that were not particular topics of interest at that In Newham there is West Ham park and there is Queen’s stage. The first involves surveillance and the Terrorism park in the London borough of Brent. It was often Act 2000. Lords amendment 102 and related amendments under private Acts of Parliament, frequently through deal with the powers of the Investigatory Powers Tribunal bequests of what were the curtilage of large mansion to deal with complaints about the surveillance houses, that these local parks and amenities were founded, commissioners and their decisions. The IPT does not often back in the 18th and 19th centuries. necessarily work as well as it needs to, and it is not as transparent and open as it needs to be, but I am glad Conservators have exactly the same issues as local that we are taking a step towards more transparency. authorities in terms of the public open spaces they Surveillance oversight is an extremely important subject, administer, so it is sensible to include these places in and the Bill does not finish what we need to do about it. order not to have duplication but to ensure there is not There is much more to be done, but although the an opportunity for some of these powers to slip through amendments represent just a tiny piece of the jigsaw, I the net. Conservators are not required to use the orders, welcome them. and they can keep to the local byelaws if they so wish. If Lords amendment 100 and related amendments deal they do make an order, however, and the local authority with schedule 8, which amends schedules 7 and 8 to the for the area makes its own, the local authority’s order Terrorism Act. Schedule 7 became very topical at the will take precedence. That is right. time of the detention of David Miranda. I am pleased These clauses are sensibly drafted. The powers of the that, after a great deal of argument in this House, we City of London corporation would not in any way 199 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 200

[Mark Field] four-year-old daughter were invited to a party next door. It was a dog party, and there were several dogs—and usurp those of the relevant local authority, but this does several people—there. In the resulting mêlée of people provide a belt-and-braces approach to ensure there is a wandering around and having tea, the couple lost sight proper focus on public order within those important of their daughter. Suddenly, they heard the most appalling open spaces. noise. There had been some form of communication I wish the Minister and Government well in getting with a dog by the girl, but we do not know whether she this change into the Bill and I hope there will be no had poked it in the eye or put her hand in its mouth. opposition from any corner of this House. Whatever she had done, the dog—a West Highland terrier, which had done no harm at all up till then— Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I will not detain responded by leaping up and latching on to the left side the House for long. I want to touch briefly on the of her face. It would not let go, and caused horrific dangerous dogs element of the Bill. The Environment, damage to her eye. Food and Rural Affairs Committee of which I am a member I ask the Minister’s guidance on this point. I assume published its report on dog control and welfare on that, under the proposed new law, the lady who owned 6 February 2013. In that report we recommended that the dog would face a criminal prosecution. If that is the alldog-relatedissuesshouldbeconsolidatedinacomprehensive case, the change in the law will provide a salutary Bill. This would pull together the fragmented legislation warning to dog owners who keep their dog in their referring to dog control and welfare and allow us to home, as many millions of people do. When the law is amend the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 where necessary. passed, they will have to be very careful what they do Such consolidation is essential because there are yawning with their dog when inviting people into their house. I gaps in our legislation. Voluntarycompliance with guidelines suspect that not many people have even considered the on responsible ownership has proved to be limited and matter up to now. I have two dogs, and I do not think slow, but that is not surprising as there are 8 million about whether they are going to attack anyone who dogs in this country—a huge number. The vast majority comes into my house. From now on, however, I am are well cared-for, kept and controlled, but there are going to have to think carefully. If a child comes into exceptions. Dangerous dogs have killed seven people, my house, I am going to have to think about whether five of them children, since 2007. In my own constituency my dogs could assault that child. a small child had her eye savaged by a West Highland Obviously, it goes without saying that a dog owner terrier, but more about that later because there are must take responsibility for their dog, but I raise this certain circumstances there which I want the Minister question because I wonder whether the process of the to cover when he responds to the debate. Dangerous law has been thought through by everyone outside this dogs have attacked specially trained dogs for the blind, place. Can the Minister confirm that, if the new law had causing untold grief and difficulties—and let us not applied at the time of that incident, the lady in question forget the postmen and postwomen who all too often would not have faced five years in jail, and that the are assaulted by animals as they deliver our mail. judge would have considered all the facts of the case Irresponsible dog breeders, driven only by greed, run and perhaps recommended that the dog be put down, puppy farms where a single bitch can legally produce up with the lady facing no further consequences? Will the to five litters a year. That is not good for the welfare of Minister also tell us how and when the enforcers would the bitch or her litter. Subsequent failure to socialise go into the owner’s house in such a case? If a complaint these puppies properly has the potential to create more was made, would they go in on the same night to badly behaved and dangerous dogs. remove the dog, informing the owner that it could either Under the law as it stands, it has proved impossible to be put down or returned, depending on the result of the prosecute the owners of vicious dogs if the attack takes ensuing investigation? I ask the Minister to clarify those place on private property. In such cases it has also points if he can. frequently proved difficult to prove ownership. The I assume that if the dog owner were someone with a proposals in this Bill include many of the Committee’s bad reputation—let us be blunt: if they were well known recommendations on dog control and welfare, such as to the police for breeding properly vicious dogs, rather compulsory micro-chipping by 2016, stricter oversight than West Highland terriers, for ill-gotten gains—the of puppy farms, and extending dangerous dogs legislation enforcer would simply go into the house and take the to private property in clauses 98 and 99, and I wholly appropriate action. That is exactly as it should be. Such endorse them. The tougher sentences in the two a case would be very different from the one that I have amendments in question for those whose dogs attack, described, in which a perfectly innocent lady was going injure or kill people or guide dogs for the blind are also about her business when an appalling accident happened. necessary and proportionate. Yes, that accident could have been avoided if the dog I have just one concern, which I ask the House to had been locked up, and that is the point that I would consider. If we legislate to allow enforcement agents on like to have clarified. I welcome the Lords amendments to private property to handle or destroy a dangerous to allow people who have dogs on private property to be dog after an attack, we are impinging on important reached by the law. That is incredibly important, but I rights to privacy in our own homes. While I—and, I am would be most grateful if the Minister could comment sure, the other members of the EFRA Committee—fully on the example that I have raised. endorse the amendments to the current legislation, any new legislation must be careful to protect those rights. Richard Fuller: It is a pleasure to follow my hon. I want to give an example from my constituency, and Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax), I hope that the Minister will listen to it, because I would because I am always better informed after listening to be interested to hear his response. A couple and their his speeches. I wish to speak to Lords amendment 69, 201 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 202 which deals with changes to the penalties relating to 58% of ASBOs were breached at least once and 43% were attacks by dogs, and I, too, hope that the Minister will breached more than once. Where ASBOs were breached, respond directly to the points that my hon. Friend and I they were breached five times on average, and the breach are raising today. rate for under-18s was 69%. Defending a continuation This amendment originated in the Bill Committee in of that arrangement is not a sensible approach for this House. I, too, thank my hon. and learned Friend anyone in this House who is as sensible and concerned the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen as everybody should be, and is, about tackling antisocial Phillips) and my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham behaviour. and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) for supporting the pressure The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) that was put on the Government in Committee to also referred to the use of hotels and other such premises increase the maximum sentence permissible for these for child sexual exploitation and, in particular, for grooming. offences. We were all appalled by the evidence that the She wanted to know how the law stood on that matter. police gave in our evidence sessions, so I am very If she looks at Lords amendment 77, she will see that pleased that Lord de Mauley took forward the Committee’ subsection 1(b) of the new clause we propose refers to recommendations, produced this amendment, and obtained “conduct that is preparatory to, or otherwise connected with, the Government’s support and, I hope, that of the child sexual exploitation.” whole House. I believe that provision is sufficiently wide as to provide There have been a number of victims of dangerous reasonable grounds for the police to take action. dogs. The hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling) has made a powerful case on behalf of her constituents Helen Jones: That was precisely my concern; I fear who were affected by a dangerous dog, and other hon. that it is difficult to prove a grooming offence, because Members have done the same on behalf of victims of of the nature of the offence. I asked the Minister this upsetting cases that resulted in only a minimum sentence. earlier, but will he keep this under review and, if necessary, The police told us how difficult it was for them to come back to the House with further proposals? prosecute under the existing legislation, and Lords amendment 69 gives them the tools they need to deal Norman Baker: I am happy to keep anything like that with the small minority of people that my hon. Friend under review. Everyone in this House shares a dislike of the Member for South Dorset was talking about who and distaste for the reprehensible child exploitation breed or keep dogs that go out of control, attacking and activities that some people engage in. Of course there maiming people. The police will now have the measures are other evidential trails that the police can use. Grooming to provide the proper prosecution and sentencing through often takes place online, and so sometimes evidence can the courts for those people. be accrued and then added to the use of a hotel, which The amendment is also an indication of the good then gives the police reasonable grounds for taking work of the trade unions. The Communication Workers action. Of course we will keep matters under review, Union has run an excellent campaign in support of its because we want to ensure that we eliminate all such members who face the daily risk of attack by a dog. cases as far as it is possible to do so. We share that Such attacks can end in injury and be quite severe: they objective across the House. may have a negative psychological effect on postal workers. It is fair to put on the record my support for 4.30 pm the CWU and its campaign to bring this legislation to Comments were also made about the control of dogs. the House. I welcome the fact that we have now rationalised the Although this took place before my time here, I powers and made them more effective. I am sorry that understand that legislating on dangerous dogs is treacherous the Opposition appear to be wedded to dog control territory for Governments of whatever party or origin. notices as the only solution to the problem. [Interruption.] I hope that this amendment will prove to be an exception I am delighted that it is not the case of either/or, to that rule, and I commend the Minister for bringing it because the range of powers that we are including in the to the House today. Bill gives us the opportunity to deal with problems that arise with dogs in a comprehensive and cohesive way. Norman Baker: With the leave of the House, Mr Deputy [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Warrington North Speaker, I will respond to some of the points that have (Helen Jones) says they are not flexible. On the contrary, been raised in a very wide-ranging debate. As you will they are very flexible, which is why they are not specifically appreciate, we are considering a huge range of disparate dog control notices and why they relate to generalities measures, so I will do my best to make sense of them. I of antisocial behaviour. That allows action to be taken welcome the Opposition spokesperson’s general support, more easily than was hitherto the case. even if, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge I wish to commend the work on dangerous dogs done (Dr Huppert) says, we are not clear whether they are by Members in this House, including my hon. Friend accusing us of being too draconian or too weak in our the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller). The Bill will response to antisocial behaviour. As they are accusing put us in a better position when it comes to dangerous us of both, perhaps we have got it about right. dogs. The Government made a commitment to consult I know that the Opposition are wedded to the ASBO, on increasing the penalties for an offence under section but the simple fact is that, although it may have been 3 of the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991. That is the aggravated useful on occasions, as my hon. Friend the Member for offence of owning or being in charge of a dog that is Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) has dangerously out of control—where a dog kills or injures said—I am not saying it has not—it has generally been a person or an assistance dog. That was prompted by an a failure. In 2012, the 1,329 ASBOs issued represented a amendment tabled by my hon. Friend, and I am grateful decrease of 68% since 2005. Up to the end of 2012, to him for raising that important issue. 203 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill4 FEBRUARY 2014 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 204

Following consultation, Lords amendment 69 increases only solution to anything is to create a law about it. If the penalties from the current maximum of two years’ laws and statutory guidance already exist and it is imprisonment. Where a dog is dangerously out of control common practice for certain processes to be followed, it and that results in the death of a person, the maximum might not be necessary to create a law to achieve the penalty will increase to 14 years’ imprisonment. Where aim that she wants. The question that she should be a person is injured, the maximum penalty will be five asking me is whether we have put in place a mechanism years, and where an assistance dog is injured or killed, it to achieve the aim that she rightly identifies, and the will be three years’ imprisonment. That is a sensible way answer to that is yes. We do not need to create further forward. legislation to deal with something that has already been My hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard dealt with satisfactorily under present arrangements. Drax) asked about a specific situation in which a person is invited into someone’s home, and what that might Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): Will we have mean if an offence is committed. It might be decided continuity? What discussions has the Minister had with that an offence had been committed under those the devolved Parliaments to ensure that we have a circumstances if the police and then the Crown Prosecution similar approach across the country? Service conclude that there is sufficient evidence and that a prosecution is in the public interest. That is not to Norman Baker: We and my officials have regular say that such a prosecution would always take place. I discussions with the devolved Administrations on this suspect that it would be a matter of the CPS concluding and other areas, and irrespective of political control the that the dog was dangerously out of control and that relationships between central Government here in London there were other aggravating factors of that nature. It and the Administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern would not automatically follow that if there were an Ireland are sensible and good. If the hon. Gentleman attack, there would be a prosecution. has any particular concerns and believes that there is a scenario in which the approach has not worked and is Richard Drax: I am most grateful to the Minister for willing to drop me a line, I would happily look into it for answering my question. If the Crown Prosecution Service him and take it further. decides not to take any action, would someone still be My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge in a position to decide, in the case that I cited, to put (Dr Huppert) referred to schedule 7, which, unless I down that West Highland terrier because a view had have got this wrong, appears in the next string of been taken that it was indeed dangerous? What would amendments, but as he raised the matter I will deal with the situation be there? If the case does not go to court, it now. He quite properly asked about our response to who has the power to decide on the future of that dog, the changes to the schedule recommended by the Joint which has caused an offence on private property? Committee on Human Rights. In coming to a final view Norman Baker: On the face of it, if no offence has on that and other matters relating to the schedule, we been committed or pursued, there is no case to answer. want to take into account the judgment of the judicial However, I imagine that responsible owners would want review into the David Miranda case and the report of to take into account the activity that has taken place or the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation into the attack on the individual that has occurred. Of Mr Miranda’s examination. Once they are available, we course it is always open to people to take civil action if will naturally study them carefully and decide how best they believe that that is the appropriate course of action. to proceed. Should we conclude that further amendments If I find out any further details, I will drop my hon. to schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000 are appropriate, Friend a line on that particular matter. we will seek to bring them forward as soon as parliamentary time allows. The hon. Member for Warrington North referred to the issue of firearms ownership and guidance, particularly My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London in relation to domestic violence. I assure her that we and Westminster (Mark Field) rightly drew attention to take both issues extremely seriously. Indeed I am spending the peculiar powers—peculiar in the sense that they are a great deal of time on those two issues in my ministerial unique—of the City of London. For example, it is the role. I want to make it plain that the law sets out that the only authority to be designated a secondary authority police must consider whether a firearms or shotgun for the control of dogs. Let me be clear on this point: we applicant can possess a gun without danger to public are, of course, deleting the reference to private Acts. safety or the peace. The detailed criteria are set out in Much of the land operated by the City of London the firearms guidance, which can be amended when we corporation, as he mentioned, is done so under a private believe it to be necessary. On 31 July last year, we took Act. As worded, the measure would have resulted in action to strengthen the guidance for the police on that land not being designated as a public space for the domestic violence specifically, and published new, more purposes of chapter 2 of part 4. That would have the detailed guidance. For the avoidance of doubt, if there perverse result of restricting the corporation’s ability to is an expectation or an understanding that someone has manage land that it is entitled to manage under a been involved in domestic violence, I would expect in private Act, and that is why we have taken the steps that most if not all circumstances the police to refuse to we have in that regard. issue a licence to that particular individual. I hope that that deals satisfactorily with the amendments and points raised by hon. Members. Helen Jones: I am grateful to the Minister, who is being generous in giving way. If the Government accept Lords amendment 1 agreed to. that that should happen, can he explain why they are so Lords amendments 2 to 88 agreed to. opposed to having it written into law? Lords amendment 89 agreed to, with Commons financial Norman Baker: The Opposition, as we saw during privileges waived. their time in government, appear to believe that the Lords amendments 90 to 111 agreed to. 205 Anti-social Behaviour etc. Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2014 206

After Clause 152 therefore be acquitted. For those historical reasons, the defence applies only for the benefit of a woman married ABOLITION OF DEFENCE OF MARITAL COERCION to a man. I am happy to say that time has moved on, as indeed will I in a moment. That one-sided defence is Norman Baker: I beg to move, That this House agrees now clearly an anachronism, and we accordingly agree with Lords amendment 113. that it can be consigned to history. Lords amendment 113 achieves just that. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): With this it These amendments, and the one in the previous string, will be convenient to take Lords amendments 114 to reaffirm the value of effective scrutiny and demonstrate, 180. yet again, that the Government is receptive to sensible proposals from hon. Members on both sides of the Norman Baker: I will not repeat the numbers, in case House and from noble Lords to help address the many I get that wrong, but these are the main amendments to issues of public policy we face on a daily basis. the policing provisions in the Bill. The first relates to Lords amendment 113 agreed to. schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000, which we have already touched on and which is a part of the UK’s Lords amendments 114 to 180 agreed to. counter-terrorism strategy. Lords amendments were made in line with our ongoing commitment to ensure respect BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE for individual freedoms and the need to balance that Ordered, against reducing the threat of terrorism to the public in the UK and to British interests overseas. Other amendments That, at the sitting on Wednesday 5 February, paragraph (2) of clarify how the right to consult a solicitor as soon as is Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments) shall apply to the Motions in the name of Edward Miliband as if the day were reasonably practicable and privately at any time may be an Opposition Day.—(Claire Perry.) exercised under schedule 7. The amendments make it clear that a detained person Business without Debate who exercises the right to consult a solicitor may not be questioned until they have consulted a solicitor or no longer wish to do so unless the examining officer reasonably DELEGATED LEGISLATION believes that postponing the questioning would prejudice Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the determination of whether the detained person appears Order No. 118(6)), to be a person who is or has been concerned with the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism. FAMILY LAW I would expect that exception to be used very sparingly. That the draft Child Support Fees Regulations 2014, which The amendments also clarify that a detained person were laid before this House on 2 December 2013, be approved.— is entitled to consult a solicitor in person, where it is (Claire Perry.) practicable to do so, without prejudice to the purpose of Question agreed to. the examination. Other amendments respond to a Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing commitment given in Committee in the Lords to consider Order No. 118(6)), building on one of the key changes we are already making in the Bill: namely, the introduction of statutory FAMILY LAW provision for the review of detention under schedule 7 to the 2000 Act. On reflection, we agree that the maximum That the draft Child Support (Ending Liability in Existing Cases and Transition to New Calculation Rules) Regulations periods between reviews should be specified in primary 2014, which were laid before this House on 2 December 2013, be legislation, rather than in a code of practice. The approved.—(Norman Baker.) amendments provide for a first review of detention by a Question agreed to. review officer no later than one hour after the start of detention, and for subsequent reviews at intervals of no Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing more than two hours. Order No. 118(6)), I ought also to refer to marital coercion. I will deal briefly with a final substantive amendment, Lords CONSUMER CREDIT amendment 113, tabled by Lord Pannick, which would That the draft Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Green Deal) abolish the defence of marital coercion. It is currently a (Amendment) Order 2014, which was laid before this House on defence for all criminal offences, other than treason and 9 January, be approved.—(Claire Perry.) murder, for a wife to show that she committed the Question agreed to. offence in the presence of, and under the coercion of, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing her husband. The defence is an historical one and Order No. 118(6)), reflects the particular dynamics of marriage at the time when it was introduced, which was by section 47 of the REGULATORY REFORM Criminal Justice Act 1925, which in turn abolished the That the draft Legislative Reform (Overseas Registration of previously existing presumption that a wife who committed Births and Deaths) Order 2014, which was laid before this House any offence, except treason or murder, in the presence of on 5 December 2013, be approved.—(Claire Perry.) her husband did so under his coercion and should Question agreed to. 207 4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 208

people who are paying the most for their energy are Backbench Business often those least able to afford it under the current regime? Energy Company Charges Albert Owen: Yes, absolutely—I am coming to that. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Let us see I want to deal with a number of groups and issues, whether we can get someone to open the debate. Who including the two main themes—vulnerable customers wishes to move the motion? and choice, which the Government talk about all the time but which some people do not have. This is about Several hon. Members rose— helping and protecting vulnerable people, and that is Mr Deputy Speaker: Look at that. Albert Owen—just the purpose of the motion. It is good to see that the like a man from Wales. Let us start with you. proposer of the motion, the hon. Member for Harlow, is now here. I am taking over his role for a few minutes, but I am sure, Mr Deputy Speaker, that he will catch 4.43 pm your eye and will not be penalised for being late. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I beg to move, There has been some progress on energy prices. That this House is disappointed that 17 energy companies in Compared with a few years ago, bills are more transparent the UK charge their customers more if they do not pay their bills and a number of tariffs have been simplified. I pay by direct debit; acknowledges that some firms do not charge their tribute to Ofgem, the regulator, for setting up the retail customers any extra at all; notes that Department of Energy and Climate Change statistics show that this adds £114 to the average market review, which was helpful, and to the work of consumer’s bill; further notes that 45 per cent of people do not hon. Members, including those who serve on the Energy pay their energy bills by direct debit; recognises that over one and Climate Committee, which has been very proactive million people in the UK do not have access to a bank account; in holding the energy companies to account on tariffs believes that these charges are a stealth tax on the poor; and and the price mechanisms in bills. therefore urges Ofgem to hold an inquiry into these practices, encourages energy companies to operate with more transparency, A few weeks ago—it seems like a long time ago and urges the Government to consider ways of limiting these now—we debated a proposed price freeze. Many people’s charges, such as by introducing a cap. reaction was to say that it was a con. In terms of cons I was going to start by paying tribute to the hon. by political parties, we have to look closely at what the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on opening the Prime Minister has said on several occasions about debate; I am sure we will reverse that role when he people going on to the cheapest tariff. The reality is that arrives. I think it is an appropriate time to have such a many people are adversely affected by prices. If they are debate. I am pleased to be among the many Members off the gas grid, for instance, they will never get the best who have signed the motion. I am not sure—I seek your deal offered by energy companies because they cannot advice, Mr Deputy Speaker—whether I should stop my have the dual fuel discount. Equally, there are people on speech when the hon. Gentleman arrives, or whether I fixed charges and various other things that are built into should continue. the system. However, there is now simplification and the situation is improving regardless of legislation. Mr Deputy Speaker: Keep going. Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Is not the situation Albert Owen: That is what I wanted to hear. even worse than the hon. Gentleman suggests? Under Energy prices have been a serious issue for some time, the legislation, people on pre-payment meters, for example, but attention has recently been concentrated on it because can never get anything like the lowest tariffs available. of the high hikes in those prices. Fuel poverty is very much on the agenda again as many people are feeling Albert Owen: Absolutely—that was my next point. the strain of the energy price hikes, particularly in rural These people are in vulnerable positions—not only areas. I know that the Minister has been before the those in houses in multiple occupation but those in Energy and Climate Change Committee on this issue. rural areas. I know small estates in my area where The Department’s own figures show that twice as many people have these very high payments and are unable to people in rural areas as in urban areas are suffering get the best tariffs. It is a bit of a con. Although we from fuel poverty. It is worth putting that on the record, passed the legislation and had those debates, it is worth because people in my constituency and in many putting this in its proper context, and I thank the hon. constituencies across the UK are really suffering from Gentleman for his intervention. energy prices. As many people are now acknowledging, the energy Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): As regards market is flawed in many ways. As hon. Members will the price freeze that Labour is proposing, does my hon. know, it was set up when gas and electricity were Friend agree that a member of any party that does not privatised. The old structures were used and the energy agree with it, such as the Scottish National party, has to market developed from that. There were price controls be asked in their constituency why that is? very early on, and the regional distributors and energy companies all came together. In the beginning we had Albert Owen: The purpose of the proposed price the big three; the big five and the big six were not freeze, which is not the main theme of this debate, is to invented at the time of the near-monopoly under Labour. have a pause, take stock, get the regulator to look at the issues and think about future legislation. I believe that Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): The we are where we are because of rushed legislation to hon. Gentleman is setting out the context of this debate privatise both gas and electricity, which created the extremely well. Does he share my concern that the wrong starting point for an energy market. 209 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 210

Many people on prepaid meters will never be on the not face undue price discrimination. This motion—I cheapest tariff, and that fact was never addressed by the am certain that the hon. Member for Harlow will make Government when the Energy Act 2013 made its way this point more accurately than me, because he has through Parliament. I want to concentrate on those done a lot of research on the issue—does not ask for who are hardest hit by the price discrimination to which very much, only to return to the position we were in the motion refers. They are really struggling with their previously. The licence condition that Ofgem introduced bills and I make no apology for highlighting that fact in 2008 after its energy supply probe lasted three years. time and again. Many of my constituents do not have My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South the best prices. They also have lower incomes and (Mr Cunningham) has hit the nail on the head. We have higher transport costs in rural areas, which all adds up been here before and Ofgem has the ability to address to a cost of living crisis. the issue. My party has talked about having a new body to put Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): The inflexibility consumer rights at the top of the bill. The opening line of the prepayment system means that many families of Ofgem’s website states that it is there “to protect the end up having to go to a shop to prepay. Does the hon. interest” of the customer. In this case, I believe that it is Gentleman agree that, rather than have the Government failing, and falling short of what it should do on behalf compel the energy companies, those companies should of the consumer. I am very pleased that my party now use their initiative and take the profits from over-inflated considers that off-grid customers need the same protection prices to invest in new and more flexible ways for people as those on the mains gas grid, so that everybody in the to make their prepayments? United Kingdom is treated fairly in relation to energy and can have somebody to fight on their side. Albert Owen: The hon. Lady makes a good point. I Hon. Members have intervened about those who are think that the onus is on the energy companies, but it is hurt most by direct debit payments. I confess that I pay also on the Government and the regulator. It is a my utility bills by a mixture of direct debits and good heavily regulated market and the regulator has a role to old quarterly payments on paper— play. The point I was making—I will move on from it in a moment—was about cons: it was incorrect to make bold statements to the people of this country, while Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Using the post office. legislation was making its way through Parliament, that they would be put on the lowest tariff. Albert Owen: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That was my next point—that I use the services of my David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Does the hon. local post office to pay my energy bills, which helps the Gentleman agree that the whole issue of direct debit local community in many ways. We get drawn into using payment hits the most vulnerable in our society and direct debits, because it is a little bit cheaper, but sometimes that the threatening nature of the correspondence from there is extra social value from using other methods. these organisations puts a lot of fear into the elderly in particular? Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): My hon. Friend has rightly explained how we can exercise choice Albert Owen: Yes, and that is why I support the and use other options, but such a choice is very limited motion, which deals with that very issue. A high percentage for many people. He might be interested to know that in of people choose not to pay by direct debt—I will come a recent pilot for direct payments of housing benefit, to the question of choice later—but others have no my local housing association found that many people choice, and they are the ones who feel most threatened. did not want to get involved in such things as direct debits, because of bad experiences of payments coming Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): Does out at the wrong time. my hon. Friend agree that it is a bit of a con to ask people to shop around for a lower tariff? It is about Albert Owen: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I time we had a proper inquiry into the energy companies, am sure that that issue will be addressed again as the particularly the way in which they operate as a cartel. Consumer Rights Bill goes through Parliament. I can Only a week or two ago, I watched a television programme remember a time when cash was cool. People went in on in which the regulator admitted that it could only advise time and paid their bill in cash, and that was considered companies to lower prices and that it could not impose a good method of payment. Today, people are being such a measure. penalised for exercising that very choice. The hon. Member for Harlow has singled out companies Albert Owen: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his in his early-day motions, but many companies have intervention. He is absolutely right to refer to the regulator’s good practices. For instance, my supplier gives an early lack of teeth and its lack of willingness to use the payment bonus to people who pay early by cheque or powers it already has. That is an important point. cash, or in other forms. There are mechanisms that can Some people say, “It’s a free market. Why should we be used, but they need to be adopted by the whole over-regulate it?” They would also oppose the motion’s industry. suggestion that the Government should consider introducing a cap, but it is important to realise that we Mr Weir: The hon. Gentleman is being generous in have been here before. There is no doubt that the price giving way. Does he not recognise that some companies of energy rose considerably between 2006 and 2008. claw money back, because they now charge for sending Ofgem undertook an energy supply probe and agreed to out paper bills? place a licence condition on the energy companies to ensure that different segments of the customer base did Albert Owen: Yes. 211 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 212

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. A lot Back-Bench motions in the history of such motions. of Members are waiting to speak. I know that the hon. That reflects the fact that this is an all-party issue and Gentleman is coming towards the end of his speech, not just a Conservative issue, a Labour issue or a which is heading towards 15 minutes. Unionist issue. Organisations, such as Which?, have done a huge Albert Owen: I was dragging out my speech, because amount of work to promote consumer rights in this some hon. Members had not arrived in the Chamber. field and they keep me posted on what is happening. We That explains the slowness of my opening remarks, but must remember that Which? has led a campaign on this I am now getting to the crux, if not the end, of my matter for quite a long time. argument. The points made in interventions are important: people do not choose to be in such a position, but some Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): I am sure that the are, and there should be a mix of payment methods. House will recognise that my hon. Friend is a tremendous Those who use buzzwords about a free, open and campaigner—an award-winning campaigner—on these liberal market are missing the point. Much of the matters. I think that it is worth putting that on the energy we consume involves fixed costs over which record at the start of his comments. companies have argued in the past few months that they have no real control. I am talking about such matters as Robert Halfon: I am proud to call my hon. Friend a commodity prices and transmission costs. Companies friend and I appreciate his remarks. should be fairer in how they bill people, and should not It is no secret that consumers are feeling hard pressed. penalise people or discriminate against them through The cost of utility bills has gone up exponentially in the their payment methods. past three years. Since 2007, the average electricity bill Other hon. Members have mentioned the choice to has gone up by 20% in real terms and gas bills have switch. To be honest, it is very perverse that energy gone up by a shocking 43%, proving that they are major companies and the Government push switching. No burden on the cost of living. Citizens Advice has warned other sector of industry says, in a competitive market, that energy bills are rising at up to eight times the rate of “If you don’t like what we do, go somewhere else.” Can earnings. It is no surprise that polling shows that the we imagine supermarkets adopting that policy? rising cost of energy bills is a top concern for the British I want energy companies to give loyalty bonuses to public. people who stay with them as long-term customers, I welcome the efforts that the Minister and the rather than tampering with their accounts and penalising Government have made to help, including by forcing them for how they pay. I am told by energy companies—I companies to put consumers on the lowest possible have no reason to dispute this—that the regulator does tariff, providing a rebate to every domestic electricity not allow it. We should look at that, and if we had the customer, reducing bills by £130 for 2 million of the proper review called for in the motion, the regulator poorest households and protecting pensioners’cold weather would have to consider such issues and help people by payments. However, with price increases, companies alleviating the effects of the high percentage increases making large profits and general dissatisfaction with of the past few weeks. energy companies across the United Kingdom, it is The motion is about Ofgem doing its job and standing clear that the energy market is not working at its prime. up for the consumer, the Government being on the side The payment of energy bills by direct debit is often of the consumer, and us, as a Parliament, being on the associated with companies overestimating a household’s side of the people we were sent here to represent. energy usage, resulting in overcharging and a large amount of credit being built up. Understandably, that 5pm upsets many customers and it has rightly received a lot of attention from the media. Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): After the debate, I think that I will enter the Olympics because I do not Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): My hon. Friend think that I have ever walked so fast in my life as when is a huge consumer champion, not just on this issue, but this debate started slightly early. on many others. More power to his elbow. He makes a I am hugely grateful to my hon. Friend the Member good point about the way in which direct debits work. for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen)—I call him my hon. They are not a panacea. Last week, I received an e-mail Friend on purpose—not only because he has campaigned from my constituent, Mr Balfour, who told me that his on this issue for far longer than I have and since before I 87-year-old father had built up a £1,400 credit because was even in this House, but because he was a huge he was paying by direct debit. According to Ofgem, support in tabling the motion and in going to the direct debits are meant to be set on a fair and reasonable Backbench Business Committee. I also thank him for basis. Does my hon. Friend share my view that we his speech. should define in more detail what “fair and reasonable” I would also like to thank my hon. Friend the Member means? for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon), the right hon. Member Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend makes a hugely important for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and all those who point, and I suspect that the Minister will have more to came with me to the Backbench Business Committee, say about it. I welcome the fact that the Government particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham are forcing companies to compensate customers, such and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), who is winding up the as his constituent, who have been mis-sold or overcharged. debate and has done an enormous amount of work on I know that the Department of Energy and Climate this issue. I also thank the 177 Members who have Change has asked Energy UK to set up direct debit best signed the motion, making it one of the best supported practice guidelines. 213 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 214

The problems associated with customers not paying payment scheme, energy companies might equalise charges their gas and electricity bills by direct debit have largely upwards rather than downwards and charge everybody been ignored, even though it can end up costing consumers more for their bills, in which case nobody will benefit significantly more. Unlike the hon. Member for Ynys and some people will lose out even though everyone will Môn, who has known about the problem for some time, be paying the same. I first became aware of it only a few weeks ago. A pensioner in my constituency told me that she had Robert Halfon: I thank my hon. Friend, with whom I received a letter from Co-operative Energy saying that have discussed the issue. I will come on to it later, so I because she was not paying her bills by direct debit, she hope he will bear with me for a moment. would be charged £63 a year extra. I could not believe Some companies’ levies are extraordinary. I spoke it—I wondered how on earth such a thing could happen, last night to the managing director of Spark Energy, given that she had gone to the post office religiously to which says that it has a special tariff system and that the pay on time. I thought, “That is a lot of money”, so on majority of its customers are tenants. Some 10,000 of the Monday, I rang up Co-operative Energy and spoke Spark’s 80,000 customers, those who do not pay by to the general manager, who was very pleasant. He said, direct debit, are charged up to £390 a year extra. The “Actually, ours is one of the lowest”. There I was managing director told me that that was purely down to thinking that £63 was a lot of money. costs. I will make this point later, but what is to stop I decided to investigate every single energy company, another company coming along and saying, “It’s £450 and the results were shocking. Of the 26 companies that or £500 and that is down to costs”? We need transparency. responded, five only allowed their customers to pay by Let me make three points: first, I believe that these direct debit and 17 charged their customers different charges effectively act as a stealth tax on the poor; rates depending on the method that they used to pay. secondly, I want to rebut the arguments used by energy Only four companies charged their consumers the same companies to defend such practices; and thirdly, I will whether or not they paid by direct debit. In a euphemism say what I think the Government should do about extraordinaire, many of the companies that charged them. extra said not that they were adding a surcharge but that they were discounting the bills of people who used The excessive charges often hit those we should protecting direct debit, because there were lower costs. the most, and just like my constituent, it is often the elderly who are affected. Many pensioners do not like paying by direct debit because they want to be in Mr Jim Cunningham: The hon. Gentleman has been control of their finances. Over the past few weeks I have a great champion of a lot of energy issues over the past been inundated with letters from pensioners. One said: two or three years, for which I pay him tribute. “We are from the old school—brought up to put our bills It strikes me that we must have a good look at how money away every week. Never to be in debt. But because we energy companies are structured and at the powers that prefer not to have direct debit, we are punished.” the regulator has. I am not convinced about the regulator. Another wrote that I do not want to be party political—we are trying to get “as members of the older generation, we are very aware that a consensus tonight—but does the hon. Gentleman keeping a careful eye on budgets and control of finances is very share my hope that the Secretary of State for Work and important, and we have always been in favour of paying bills as Pensions will examine the motion tonight? There have and when they arise—budgeting year by year for increases and been strong stories in the press that the Government are ensuring that we have money to cover such expenses. In this way going to abolish the winter fuel allowance. I do not we avoid becoming overdrawn and incurring bank charges.” know whether that is true or false, but we hope that the That is exactly the sort of fiscal responsibility we should message will get through to the Minister responsible in encourage, and it is not exclusive to pensioners. one way or another. Understandably, anyone on a low income might be concerned that a direct debit could be taken at a moment Robert Halfon: I want more money to go to the when they are not able to pay for it. They might be poorest pensioners, including the winter fuel allowance. waiting to get paid a day later, for example, and missing I do not believe that millionaires or people with earnings a direct debit payment would incur a heavy bank charge. of more than £100,000 should get winter fuel payments, It also does not take into account those who struggle to and I would rather they went to the poorest. get access to proper banking facilities. Some 1.9 million households in the UK do not have a current account Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I congratulate my and there is no facility for them to have an overdraft. hon. Friend on his speech. Does he agree that when Half a million of those households do not even have people are in credit, interest should be paid at a proper access to a basic bank account that can accept direct rate? Does he believe that the reason why balances creep payments. Such people are incredibly vulnerable and up is that bill models are too opaque, and that a filling have very little choice over their payment methods, yet station-type model might be better? they are being penalised for that and are often those who can afford it least. Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend makes an important This is not just about finances because, crucially, point, and I am sure the Minister has heard his remarks. many people, particularly the elderly—certainly in my constituent’s case—enjoy the social aspect of going to Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I totally understand the post office to pay their bills. Many pensioners have my hon. Friend’s point, but my only concern about the contacted me to say that they do not trust direct debits thrust of his arguments is that people are being charged and feel that companies discriminate against them because less for paying by direct debit rather than being charged they cannot use computers. As one person rightly pointed more for not doing so. If we stop that differential out, direct debits and credits are always susceptible to 215 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 216

[Robert Halfon] would therefore question how some companies have concluded that sending out letters can cost up to £15, human error on the part of the recipient, and mistakes and whether that is truly proportionate. It is also worth take an enormous amount of time to sort out. All noting that some companies, such as Good Energy and echelons of society should be catered for, not just Green Energy UK, do not charge their customers anything computer and smartphone users, credit card holders different based on their preferred type of payment, and the technologically literate generation. believing that customers should not be penalised for how they choose to pay. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP) rose— Secondly, the companies argue that they should charge more owing to the cost of providing credit to customers. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con) rose— Of course, I understand that when one pays for something retrospectively there is an extra cost, but, as I have said, Robert Halfon: I will give way to the hon. Member for it is also worth pointing out that some companies that South Antrim (Dr McCrea) who represents a party that charge retrospectively do not charge anywhere near as has been enormously supportive on this issue. much as the big utility companies. BT is not my favourite company. Nevertheless, it bills customers retrospectively Dr McCrea: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on for the calls they make, yet charges just £2 a month to the effort he is making on this important issue. The customers who do not pay by direct debit. There is no motion before us reminds us that more than 1 million extra charge for any customers who are on a low income people in the UK do not have access to a bank account. and therefore qualify for the BT basic service. I praise Surely that points to the fact that energy companies are BT for making a commercial decision not to rip off penalising the weakest and most vulnerable people in their customers and to charge just £2 a month. I believe society. that companies should be able to meet some of these extra costs themselves. Because of the nature of direct Robert Halfon: The hon. Gentleman is right, and debit payments, customers often pay too much. even worse, those companies justify the charges by saying that they are because of the cost of pursuing Kate Hoey: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his non-payers. In essence, the poorest and pensioners who articulate outlining of the case. He mentions BT. His pay on time are paying for companies to pursue non-payers ten-minute rule Bill next week covers a much wider or late-payers. area, because it is clearly not just the energy companies that do this. Does he not agree with me that a basic Mr Marcus Jones: My hon. Friend is a true consumer principle should be that if someone has a bill and they champion. Does he agree that the same principle exists want to pay it in cash, they should not be charged a for many people who have not got access to the internet penny extra for doing so? and are penalised for asking their supplier for a paper bill and charged a levy as a result? Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. Before the hon. Gentleman replies to that intervention, Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend is right, as he will may I remind him that the Backbench Business Committee understand as I continue my remarks. recommends 10 to 15 minutes for opening speeches? He is not making an opening speech, but he is being allowed Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I, too, that time. That 10 to 15 minutes does not allow extra congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this important time for interventions. He has been very generous, but a debate. Is he aware of any studies or work that looks at lot of Members wish to speak. I would be grateful if he exactly how the burden of this problem falls on different could now draw his remarks to a conclusion. income distribution groups? If such work is not available, does he think that Ofgem, or possibly the Department of Energy and Climate Change, should commission it Robert Halfon: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. so that we can see exactly where the burden of this I will do my best. disparity falls on different income deciles? The third claim is that the cost differential—coming on to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend makes an important for Shipley (Philip Davies)—is due to the discount that point. I know that Which? has done an enormous companies offer customers who pay by direct debit. amount of work, as have other organisations and the Indeed, many energy companies I spoke to told me that Keep Me Posted campaign. I am sure the Minister has what they actually offered was a discount to encourage heard my hon. Friend’s remarks. customers to use direct debit. However, if companies How do some of the energy companies justify these are using discounts to attract customers, it seems possible fees? First, they claim, amazingly, that the fees they that they are using non-direct debit paying customers to charge are proportionate. Under Ofgem’s licensing subsidise these accounts—the point I made earlier. conditions to energy companies, they are required to Differences in price should therefore be called a premium, ensure that what they charge is reflective of cost. As I rather than a discount, which can be misleading. Calling have said, I have no problem with a small administrative a difference of £390 a discount is like calling a mortuary charge to reflect the extra cost companies face in processing a negative patients output. Any price savings must be a cheque, but many companies offer a paperless discount proportional and must be communicated transparently of approximately £6 per annum, implying that the cost to the customer. of letters is £6. Keep Me Posted, after discussions with The fourth claim is that the cost is reflective of the mailshot companies, has revealed that the cost of printing fact that those who do not pay by direct debit are more letters, staff cost, postage and printing is 19p per item. I of a risk for non-payment. I have seen the cost breakdown 217 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 218 of some companies that shows how much this adds on power—many poorer households pay for their light and to the extra charge. Roughly, it makes up about half. heating using prepayment meters. That is the area on Returning to some of the people I quoted at the beginning which I want to concentrate. of this speech, all of them said that they pay on time People with prepayment meters have more expensive without fail. Why should they pay more because of tariffs than direct debit customers. Citizens Advice calculates other people’s mistakes? that meters add £100 a year to the average bill, which is The fifth claim—I am nearing the end of my remarks—is a lot of money for someone on a low income already that introducing a cap on what companies can charge stretched by the rising prices of other household essentials. consumers would result in everyone’s prices going up. It is no wonder, then, that StepChange debt charity has That should not be the case, and the suggestion that it recorded a 129% rise, between 2010 and 2013, in the would push up prices is symptomatic of an energy number of clients in electricity arrears and a 114% rise market that is not as competitive as it should be. Energy in gas arrears. companies should be fighting to keep these charges as We can all understand why energy companies want low as possible to hold on to as many customers as they customers to pay their bills by direct debit—it is easier can. It tends to be the smaller companies that charge for them and cheaper—and many of us do pay that way, the least or do not differentiate between payment types. but 45% of households do not, according to Which?. In I am pleased that the Government are encouraging new fact, more than 7 million people in the UK pay for their entrants to the market, but in the short term I believe gas and electricity by prepayment meter, and that figure that a moderate cap on fees charged is the answer. has been rising in recent years. It is not right that less In conclusion, I am not against energy companies. I well-off families are being penalised for using this payment believe in business, but I believe in fair business, not the method. There are many reasons households choose juggernaut of the big corporation. That is why I urge not to pay by direct debit: they might not have a bank the Government, first, properly to investigate these account; they might be wary of falling into arrears; they charges and reassure customers that their bills are might have been put on a meter by the energy company proportionate and that they are not being hoodwinked. for past arrears; or they might simply have inherited the Any companies whose charges are not found to be meter from a past tenant in their flat or house. proportionate should be subject to a fine or windfall tax, with all the money being passed back to the consumer. Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): Secondly, there should be fundamental reform of the My hon. Friend is making a powerful case about system. As I have suggested, late fees should be for prepayment meters. I have been contacted by a constituent those who pay late— who wants to get off her prepayment meter. She has just been made redundant and is facing a big cost of living Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. It crisis in her own life, but to come off the meter will cost is now three minutes since I asked the hon. Gentleman her £195, because Scottish Power charges £45 for a to conclude his remarks. There is going to be a tight home visit by an inspector and then expects her to come time limit. When I say “conclude”, I normally mean a up with a further £150 for a credit check. She will get couple of sentences. I realise he has a lot to say, but to that back if she passes, but she is still expected to find say it within the time is always the challenge in the £195 just to come off the prepayment meter, which she House. Will he please give us his last two short sentences, wants to do to reduce her energy costs. Is that not otherwise I will just sit him down? another example of how these charges are a penalty on the poorest? Robert Halfon: Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker. Finally, a cap should be introduced on the amount a Yvonne Fovargue: I quite agree with my hon. Friend. customer can be charged. We need transparency, a cap Indeed, I was coming to that very point. The company I on charges and fundamental reform. spoke to charges £50 for removal, or a deposit, and as my hon. Friend says, a credit check is payable by the Several hon. Members rose— person who wants to change their meter. The other issue is that many people on prepayment Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I must inform Members meters are not aware of the tariff they are on, particularly that there will be an eight-minute time limit on Back-Bench if they moved into the accommodation with the meter contributions. It might be necessary to shorten it, but already in place. In a recent survey by Stratford-upon-Avon let us see how we go. citizens advice bureau, only 7% of gas users surveyed and 12% of electricity users knew the name of their 5.21 pm supplier and the tariff they were on. This state of affairs is not helped by the fact that prepayment users receive Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): I, too, congratulate only an annual statement. They do not receive quarterly the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) and all statements. They receive an annual statement, which the Members who have supported this important debate. makes it impossible for them to monitor their expenditure, We are all paying a lot more for our energy. As the their deductions and their energy use on a regular basis. hon. Gentleman mentioned, energy prices have increased Crucially, many do not know that in addition to the eight times faster than earnings since 2010. It affects us energy cost, they are having a daily standing charge all but impacts on lower-income households far more, deducted from what they pay. Many people believe that not just because they have less to spend generally, all the money they put in goes to fuel, but if they try to meaning that any rise in the price of everyday goods economise in the warmer weather by not topping up and services hits them harder, but because they pay their card, they easily build up arrears of the standing more than better-off households for their heating and charge, and that plays havoc with the household budget. 219 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 220

[Yvonne Fovargue] that is around now. It seems to be way out of line with any measure of actual costs. Of course, we have additional The situation is made worse by emergency credit, things now, such as discounts for online bills, which can which is often accessed by pressing the special button add up to a fair amount, so there are many ways in on the meter. In the Stratford-upon-Avon survey 67% of which those without direct debit facilities or the internet people used emergency credit in colder weather, but are being penalised. most did not realise that the deduction for the standing However, I want to follow on from the previous charges and arrears cease when they go on emergency speaker, the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne credit, and are then taken off when they next top up. I Fovargue), who made a good speech about prepayment have seen people at the citizens advice bureau who have meters. Rather like the hon. Member for Harlow, I had topped up £10 but have had almost £5 of that go on this issue brought to my attention just a couple of their standing charge. That plays havoc with the household weeks ago. I was aware there was an issue, but I did not bills. If the money cannot be found, the prepayment know how big it was until a constituent of mine called user is left without light, heating or cooking facilities. In Frank Harrison claimed he was spending an extra 25% by the Stratford-upon-Avon survey 30% of the clients who having a prepayment meter. I found that staggering, but answered the survey had a long-term limiting health sure enough, when I did a bit of digging, I found that condition. These are the people we are leaving without that was roughly the figure. I heard the figure of £100 from heat, light or cooking facilities. Citizens Advice. However, I have checked the three Prepayment meters are often presented as an effective biggest comparison websites, which estimate the difference budgeting tool for low-income households, and—this at between £160 and £300 extra for having a prepayment sounds quite benign—people self-disconnect. But they meter, and we are talking about people who largely do not self-disconnect: they simply do not have the cannot afford any extra. money to top up or they cannot get to the shop to do it. I understand the history. As an accounting trainee, I The reality is that the meters themselves are contributing remember going round with a meter collector with to the increased debt problem. The highest fuel poverty gigantic bags of silver coins, which he had to keep rate by payment method is among households that pay shipping to a bank. The costs of prepayment meters for their fuel using a prepayment meter. used to be serious when somebody had to be sent round Energy companies need to stop discriminating against collecting money frequently. However, we do not have prepayment meter users and accept that there are good that now; we have pre-payment cards. The risks of reasons why people are reluctant or unable to pay by default are minimal. Prepayment meters also used to be direct debit. They need to ensure that prepayment meter a big target for theft, but not any more, and the energy customers have access to and knowledge of the various companies are getting their money in advance, so the tariffs on offer, and that they get the best energy deals. excuse that the costs of prepayment meters are much There is a lot of talk about consumer choice, but for higher starts to fall away, given that people have to pay many on prepayment meters there is often no choice, for the energy before they use it. Therefore, by definition unless the choice is between eating or heating. The the bad debts will be nil. energy companies need to respect their prepayment clients—they are customers, after all—and ensure that I join other Members in calling for transparency. It is they have real control over their expenditure and energy inexcusable that these companies appear to be able to use. differentiate however they like, whenever they like and to any degree they like. The concept of a cap, which we heard about from the hon. Member for Harlow, is an 5.27 pm extremely good start, but I would like to go further. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I add my congratulations Through policies such as the energy company obligation, to the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), who the Government already require energy companies to has led the charge, and to all the other Members who do things—in that case to do with insulation—for the supported his motion today. The debate has already poorer sections of the community. Given the cost of shown that there is no monopoly of concern in one part energy, it is high time that companies were required to of the House—we are all concerned about this. I heard do more—to get involved not just in insulation, but in the calls for extra analysis of the issue, but there is no levelling the playing field between different methods of doubt that we are talking about an issue that largely payment, particularly when it comes to prepayment affects the poorer part of the community. We could meters, and to bring down the direct debit difference, if analyse it to death, but we all know intuitively what is it is to exist, to a very low level. I would favour the going on. Government saying, “Along with the ECO, we expect I worked in the electricity industry way back in the you to provide the lowest cost tariffs, whatever the 1970s. I was probably around at the start of the discount method of payment.” for direct debit schemes. We always used to do our marketing campaigns in the spring. Why? Because that Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): I am allowed us to pile up credit through the summer, which sure that, like me, my hon. Friend would want to helped to finance the business. There is no doubt that publicise the fact that uSwitch now offers a paper companies are doing that. We always used to aim to hit switching service. Some of the people on the most the exact average over the 12 months, but some companies expensive tariffs can be the elderly and the vulnerable—the seem to be looking to build up credit over the 12-month people least likely to want to go on the internet to period by assuming extra usage. That practice ought to change user. This excellent debate initiated by my hon. be stopped. Back in those days we used to give people Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) is a an incentive of £2 or £3 a quarter for paying by direct good opportunity to publicise uSwitch’s paper switching debit. I am staggered by the size of the so-called incentive campaign. 221 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 222

Ian Swales: I would not necessarily want to support pay by direct debit, but we do not trust our supplier. We any particular commercial organisation, but I recognise do not want it to have access to our bank account. We the bid that the hon. Gentleman makes and I certainly would be in economic meltdown if the supplier took support the idea of switching. He is absolutely right large sums from us, so we do not want it to have access that anyone who wants to get the best deals these days to our account. We also know that although we will be has to have a bank account—and pay by direct debit—and racking up credit, because that is the sort of people we has to be online to get the discounts and switch easily. are, the supplier will still increase our direct debit.” They certainly do not want to have a prepayment meter. Others asked, “How do I know that I am not being All that militates against the poorest part of our community. wrongly charged? How can I understand my gas bill? Do I need to be an advanced scientist to understand David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I agree with what the unit price is, and how the supplier charges my hon. Friend that the current practice militates against me?” That question arose time after time, and it made the poorest people. His example of the ECO is rather a me more aware of how people felt. Members of the good one, because it involves the Government putting Caribbean community in my constituency, in particular, the onus on companies to do something. The only thing did not want to be involved with direct debit. that bothers me a little, however, is that what is being Gas and electricity costs are still one of the major suggested might imply a levelling of the bill upwards, as sources of continuing debt among those who come to it does with the ECO, although that might be a reasonable my surgeries. I encountered an amazing case just a few thing to happen. weeks ago. My constituent Mrs Boakye cares for her elderly mother, who has had a stroke, and has four adult Ian Swales: What I am suggesting is really an averaging children. She won the jackpot when she was given a process. We expect better-off consumers effectively to social tenancy of a four-bedroom house. All her dreams pay for various measures nowadays, and I think we were realised: she was out of the insecurity of the should ensure that they help the poorer members of the private rented sector. Her only problem was that her community in this instance by levelling the playing field supplier, British Gas, then attempted to take £835 from between the different tariffs. I hope that the Minister her account to meet her gas bill. I do not know about will respond to that suggestion. other Members, but I could not sustain a direct debit of £835. Certainly Mrs Boakye, as a nurse, could not do 5.35 pm so. Her account was put in a spin, and all her direct Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): I debit payments began to be missed. It took some time shall not detain the House for the full eight minutes. I for British Gas to agree that it had made a mistake. just want to tell Members about an event that I organised Mrs Boakye is living proof that those who are on in my constituency in January 2012. tight and limited incomes should not let gas and electricity I had begun to notice that that more and more people suppliers have access to their accounts. While that fear were coming to my surgeries to talk about their difficulties and anxiety exist, the people who can least afford it will in paying their bills. When I started to talk to people continue to pay most for their energy. who were in debt about what their debts were, arrears of gas and electricity were appearing ever higher on the 5.39 pm list. I started writing to charitable trusts, particularly those attached to British Gas and other large suppliers, Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP): I thank in an attempt to help those people. the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) for bringing In order to draw attention to the issue, I organised a this topic to the Chamber through the Backbench Business gas and electricity advice day in my constituency. It was Committee and for his tireless work on behalf of consumers attended by representatives of the big six, Co-operative and the wider community, and I thank the hon. Member Energy—which was very new at that point—debt advice for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), too. agencies, the Royal British Legion, and other bodies In addressing today’s debate and the motion, which that do good work out there to help people. It was also focuses on direct debit payments for electricity bills, we attended by representatives of uSwitch, because I thought must also take into consideration the current economic that my constituents were, in the main, not people who situation faced by consumers. People are already paying would know how to go about switching. I thought that excessive energy bills. Nearly all the major UK operators it would be anathema to them. After all, few of us who increased the cost of annual bills by about 10% last get up and go to work each day want to spend hours year, while Power NI delivered a staggering 17.8% increase trying to decide on an alternative energy supplier. uSwitch in Northern Ireland. Although the recent jobs and was inundated on the day. People—they were mainly GDP figures for Northern Ireland give some cause for elderly, and mainly members of particular ethnic hope, the truth is that this limited recovery is not being minorities—brought their bills, and cautiously went to felt by families who are faced with higher energy bills, talk to the uSwitch representatives. I observed that no rising petrol costs and real-terms pay cuts. In this economy, one trusted their suppliers to stick to a better deal if every pound matters and that is why today’s debate is so they managed to secure one, or felt confident that the important. wool would not be pulled over their eyes. It is understandable if a company wants to give a We held eight question and answer sessions on a discount to customers for paying by direct debit, and rolling basis with Audrey Gallacher, who at the time that is an entirely valid pricing structure, provided that was director of energy at Consumer Focus. At the it reflects the genuine saving to the company of the beginning of each session, the same two issues were payment option. However, what is not acceptable is the raised—and 430 people were there that day. Some said, vast price differential which seems to be prevalent in “We know that we are paying more because we do not the current market between customers paying by direct 223 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 224

[Ms Margaret Ritchie] will encourage the utilities regulator in Northern Ireland to intervene with Power NI. Any such investigation debit and those not paying by direct debit. It would needs to determine the real cost of the different payment seem that those not paying by direct debit are actually options and the level that should be charged to ensure paying a penalty to subsidise other customers’ lower that one band of customers is not cross-subsidising bills. That is clearly unacceptable. another. This is not a plain and simple matter of consumer choice. There are over 1 million people in society who Jake Berry: Will the hon. Lady give way? do not hold current accounts and who therefore do not have the option of paying by direct debit. Moreover, Ms Ritchie: I apologise, but I want to make some 45% of all bill payers, including many of those with progress; I have already taken some interventions, and bank accounts, do not pay using direct debit for a to take more would be unfair to others. variety of valid reasons. Such people, who are often As I was saying, we need to determine the level that vulnerable or elderly, should not face a penalty for that. should be charged to ensure that one band of customers Sadly, the people facing penalties, which can amount to is not cross-subsidising another, particularly when a hundreds of pounds a year, are often also those most group of customers with limited financial means is likely to be facing fuel poverty or for whom such an found to be supporting cheaper prices for those who amount of money would make the biggest difference. have the luxury of choice. The Consumer Rights Bill to which my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) referred has a role to play. It offers the perfect opportunity (Con): I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow for implementing the measures proposed today, and I (Robert Halfon) for calling this debate and I apologise would like to ask the Minister if he will now bring it for missing the early part of it. The hon. Lady is making forward. a very valuable case. Does she agree that the additional We have a separate energy market in Northern Ireland, cost to which disadvantaged people are being put by but I am aware that a similar situation exists there in these meters and other payment systems that are not relation to non-direct-debit charges. I therefore hope for direct debit is grossly disproportionate to the amount of an assurance from the Minister that the review will savings that are supposed to be generated for the power consider Northern Ireland as well. Will he tell us what company and therefore represents an extortionate extraction discussions have taken place with the relevant Minister of value from the poor member of the public who has in Northern Ireland on the matter of energy billing? to pay for it? The House knows of the wider issues facing the Ms Ritchie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his energy market, and there is clearly a need for sweeping intervention, and I fully agree with him, because I have reform, but today’s motion offers the opportunity to seen that, not least in my own community in Northern commit to a measure that would resolve at least one Ireland. inequity. That would bring a degree of relief to families Many people are likely to be pushed into financial and individuals who are hard pressed by the ever-increasing difficulties by such charges and they often have the least cost of living. flexibility when it comes to arranging their financial affairs. I support this motion on the simple principle 5.47 pm that price structures and options should offer customer Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I congratulate the choice, not be determined by customer constraint. hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing It should also be pointed out that not every company the debate and on amassing such an impressive number operates in this way. In contrast to Power NI, there is of supporters. I also congratulate the Backbench Business Budget Energy in Northern Ireland. It does not penalise Committee on securing the time for the debate. customers for non-direct debit payments. In fact, its All our constituents have suffered from rocketing cheapest tariff per unit is for prepayment meters. Other energy prices over the last few years. Hard as that is for companies should be encouraged to consider similar everyone, it is harder still for those who are unable to pricing structures that do not penalise certain bands of access the special deals that are offered by just about all customers. Again the issues of transparency and equity the energy companies. In passing, however, I note that it and fairness come into play. is not all plain sailing for those who sign up to pay by direct debit, which can involve either a quarterly bill Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): If someone pays payment or paying a set amount per month. Those who their bill promptly, it is unfair that they should be take the quarterly bill payment option do not necessarily penalised for not using a direct debit. Surely it should have any control over the amount being taken from be put into law that people who pay their bills when their bank account, especially if they are out a lot and they are asked to do so should not pay a penalty in that regularly have estimated bills. That can be a real problem. way. For those who opt to pay a set amount per month by direct debit, the company will regularly try to increase Ms Ritchie: I agree with the hon. Gentleman; nobody the amount they pay, whether or not the current amount should be penalised, and those who are least well-off covers their bills. Any attempt to retrieve an overpayment are being penalised more than anyone else. Energy bills can result in a long tussle. At any given time, the energy are at very high levels at the moment. companies are sitting on substantial sums that have I am glad that the Prime Minister called last week for been overpaid by customers. These are estimated to be a probe into these excessive costs, and that the Department about £2 billion, earning the companies £36 million a of Energy and Climate Change is to investigate the year in interest. It is hardly surprising that they keep situation. There is clearly a role for Ofgem there, and I trying to up the level of people’s direct debits. 225 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 226

Matters are not helped by the fact that energy companies accounts and have to juggle their income to ensure that are often not transparent about the charges that will all bills are met. The availability of direct debit arrangements actually be applied. The hon. Member for Makerfield further discriminates against such consumers. (Yvonne Fovargue) mentioned the fact that many people Let me directly address the point made by the hon. on prepayment meters did not know what tariff they Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore). Anyone were on. In recent price rises we were told the average, who cares to look at banking comparison sites such as but that hides a multitude of sins. A constituent, a low MoneySuperMarket.com or money.co.uk will find that energy user, contacted me yesterday regarding the charges data on best buy basic bank accounts show that some levied on his flat. He told me that the unit charge had managed accounts with niche suppliers, which are risen from 7.242p to 10.89p—a rise of some 50%. That supposedly specifically designed to help people with is outrageous. poor credit histories budget, have substantial monthly The crux of the debate is not so much energy prices fees of about £12 to £14; those come up first if people as social exclusion. Gratifying as it is to give the big six google “basic bank accounts”. By contrast, some of us energy companies a well deserved kick, we also need to still, at least for the moment, enjoy free banking, as well examine the actions taken by many of our major financial as being able to get direct debit payments on our energy. institutions and how they work against people accessing It is also illuminating to look at the discussion forums cheaper energy deals. The Minister may be able to do on some of these sites and at the threads on basic bank something about energy companies and Ofgem, but we accounts. It is apparent that the big banks, some of need a cross-governmental effort to look also at how which still offer basic bank accounts without a fee, try people access finance and bank accounts. The major to place people who inquire about basic bank accounts energy companies all offer better deals if people can pay on their basic current accounts, which allow the very for their energy by direct debit; Citizens Advice reckons overdrafts that many of those seeking basic bank accounts that the average saving is £100 on that paid by people seek to avoid. Such accounts can also sometimes come who pay by other methods, although it can be as high as with swingeing penalties should the limit be exceeded. £140. That is great for people who are able to pay by In addition, people may find that the payment card direct debit, but many of those most in need of cheaper for their basic bank account works only in certain energy are the very people unable to pay by direct debit. automated teller machines. That makes things difficult, There can be many reasons for that. Banking exclusion particularly in rural areas, where there may be only one is one such reason, because about 1 million people do ATM; if it does not happen to be the right one, people not have a bank account. We have all seen in recent cannot access their money. Many people who have had years the flight of the banks from rural areas and areas difficulties with banks in the past are also wary of of deprivation, and just the other week many branch opening basic bank accounts with the same banking closures were announced. group, as they have real concerns that the money that goes into them might be swiped by the banks to clear Sheila Gilmore: I am sure the hon. Gentleman is pre-existing debts. All of that works against taking aware of this, but I would like him to comment on it. advantage of direct debit deals. Many big banks have retreated from things such as basic bank accounts—Barclays is the only one of the The situation is even worse for people who are on major banks still to offer that—so in the past few years prepayment meters. As I have said before, this is one of things have gone backwards on banking inclusion. the rare examples where people are actually penalised for paying in cash up front. Not only can they not access special deals, but the tariff is often higher. Many Mr Weir: The hon. Lady is right about that, and I will people who rent privately have no option, as private deal with the matter in a moment. landlords have often installed prepayment meters. Worse Another reason is digital exclusion, because many still, when meters are calibrated to recover existing debt, people do not or cannot access the internet, perhaps much of the money is taken before energy is provided. because they cannot afford it or they are unable to work Those are just a few of the many issues around a computer because of illness or age. Other people are energy prices. For many people, the advice from successive simply disengaged from any competitive initiatives. Some Governments to switch suppliers or to pay by direct may lead chaotic lives, whereas others may simply live debit simply does not work. I accept that there are in privately rented accommodation and move frequently additional costs in different types of payments, but the to seek employment, and, thus, cannot enter into the huge disparity in charges shows that the current system longer-term agreements demanded by many of the direct is not working. We need real action on the matter and a debit arrangements. fairer and transparent charging system. The motion Today’s debate pack contains an interesting table calls for a cap on charges, which is very reasonable. I detailing the percentage of people who pay by direct appreciate that the problem is not all down to the debit. The figure for the south-east is 63% and the one Department of Energy and Climate Change. As I said for my area of north Scotland is 56%. Surprisingly, earlier, I hope that there will be a cross-governmental London’s figure, 41%, is one of the lowest, but that is effort to deal with the problem. because of the transient nature of London’s population and the fact that it contains a huge number of houses in multiple occupation and young people living in them. 5.56 pm Those things push the figure down. Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) Some people are simply wary of getting into debt, (Con): I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the especially if they have previously had problems, and Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing this they do not want to get into the position where they important debate. I intend to keep my comments brief, cannot control exactly when money comes out of their as other Members have covered some of the subjects in 227 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 228

[Caroline Nokes] to 55% across the rest of the UK. There are many reasons for that, including a more conservative approach such depth. However, there is an issue that I wish to to such things. Fewer people have access to bank accounts raise, pertaining as it does to the south-east. We have and the remoteness of many rural areas means many just heard from the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) people cannot pay online. In my constituency, a huge that people in the south-east are more likely to pay their programme is trying to connect people to broadband bills by direct debit. However, even in Hampshire, which because of the low level of coverage for thousands of is a relatively well-developed county, there is a significant households. Those in remote areas, especially those in problem with broadband access in rural areas, making the Antrim plateau, do not even have broadband as an it hard for people to manage either their banking or option. As a result, 42% of people in Northern Ireland energy payments online. As we have heard, it is those live in fuel poverty. That is exacerbated by perverse who can manage an online account who often get the incentives that affect how energy bills are structured. most preferential rates for their energy bills. It is simply too much of a generalisation to say that it Ian Swales: The hon. Gentleman is talking about is the elderly who are least likely to use the internet to perverse incentives. Does he agree that people who have manage their energy bill. There are many silver surfers access to the internet and pay by direct debit are those in my constituency who are happy to use the internet to who are most likely to switch, which means that the manage their energy bills and their banking, but they energy companies have a perverse incentive to give them cannot manage them in areas where the broadband the lowest tariffs to try to keep them? speeds are simply not adequate to do so. I speak from some experience; I can manage my own energy account Sammy Wilson: They do. The hon. Gentleman makes online, but that is because I have relatively rapid broadband a very important point, and in most cases those people speeds at home and can upload the regular requirements have the greatest ability to pay for electricity. In Northern of the meter readings that have to be taken. There are Ireland, for example, those who cannot pay by direct plenty of people in my constituency who are still on debit or online will pay £55 more a year for their energy dial-up, and simply could not dream of uploading bill. That is about half the increase they pay as a result anything to the internet via those means. It is important of the green subsidies consumers must pay to the energy that those who cannot manage their energy bills online companies. should not be discriminated against. I want briefly to comment on the issue of refunds. We Bob Stewart: It seems to me that, from the point of have repeatedly heard from Members about how their view of an energy company, if people can be put on to constituents have seen their accounts getting into very direct debit payments, all too often those who can high rates of credit. Of course, if someone knows that afford it will not challenge their bill—they will just say their account is in credit, it should not be particularly that it is done and dusted. That is a big advantage for complicated to make contact with the energy company the energy companies. and ask for a refund. However, in the case of direct debits, we can all cite examples of how they are increased Sammy Wilson: It is a huge incentive. The figure has year after year. Consumers can find themselves paying already been quoted. People do not query their direct more and more without ever being in a position to debits and as a result huge surpluses worth £2 billion compare the bill, how much they are paying and how across the United Kingdom have built up, meaning that much is in their account. They are often confused by the people are in effect lending the energy companies money sheet on the back of their bill, which does not make for nothing and those companies reap the interest. things transparent. Meanwhile, those who cannot afford to or choose for In conclusion, I commend my hon. Friend the Member whatever reason not to pay by direct debit must pay for Harlow for his efforts in this area. He is absolutely extra. correct when he says that transparency is the key to the matter. The companies’ defence is that they have additional costs in dealing with people who do not pay by direct debit. I approached Power NI about that and it identified 5.58 pm two additional costs. First, if people pay by cheque, the Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I congratulate company pays additional transaction costs. Secondly, if the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on securing people pay by cheque, even if they pay on time—I did this debate through the Backbench Business Committee not understand this—the company says that that affects and on the work that he has done on this issue. When its cash flow. But as long as people pay promptly, we consider the impact of rising energy bills on people whether by direct debit at the end of the month or by across the United Kingdom, every aspect of those cheque at the end of the month, the company’s cash increases should be closely examined. flow is not affected. I do not know what transaction Northern Ireland has one of the highest levels of costs the power companies are paying if they have to energy bills, and we have certainly had the highest charge 6% to 8% more when a member of the public increases in recent years. That is the result of a range of pays by cash or cheque. They are certainly not the kinds issues, including the green energy policies of central of transaction costs one would expect in those Government that add £100 a year to energy bills. On circumstances. top of that, perverse incentives lead to direct debit What action can be taken? First—a number of Members increases for consumers. have mentioned this—the power companies must be That all hits Northern Ireland in a number of ways. more transparent. They cannot simply throw the matter First, we have the lowest percentage of people in the aside and glibly say, “We charge people who do not pay United Kingdom paying by direct debit—38% as opposed by direct debit extra because we have increased costs.” 229 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 230

Those costs must be quantified. As I have said, I do not capability to pay by direct debit should be favoured in accept that the costs are 6% to 8% higher just because one way or another over those who may not have that someone chooses to pay at a post office or by sending ability or capability and pay by more traditional means the power company a cheque. by simply getting their bill, writing a cheque, and putting Secondly, I believe that there is a role for the regulator, it in the post. As my hon. Friend the Member for whether Ofgem or, in Northern Ireland, the Utility Beckenham (Bob Stewart) said, someone who pays Regulator. The regulator should be on the side of the their bills on time in that way should be rewarded in the consumer. In fact, that is one of its objectives and part same way as any other person who pays their bills on of its remit. However, when I contacted the Utility time. Regulator about the cost disparity, I received a letter The point about transparency is more subtle. When that might as well have been written by the power people, particularly the elderly, look at their paperwork, company. Indeed, the power company probably would the writing is almost microscopic when it comes to the have given a better explanation, rather than the few detail of the terms of reference and, more importantly, lines I received from the Utility Regulator. There was no the penalties. Moreover, the language used is extremely challenge function, no querying of the differences in complicated, often involving jargon. It would be good if costs, and no seeking of additional information. It a working group, perhaps through the regulator or even simply stated the differences, which I already knew, and internally in this House, could address the simple issue the reasons for them, but there was no indication of of trying to use simple language to communicate with whether that would be challenged. consumers. Many consumers get baffled by the language I also believe that there is a role for the Government used about the terms they are being told they must sign in this, whether through the Consumer Rights Bill, up to. If they understood the language, perhaps they which is currently going through the House; by encouraging would not suffer so many penalties. the regulator to act by digging more deeply into the reasons given by the power companies; or indeed, as has 6.11 pm been suggested, by finding find ways of increasing competition, which of course would give consumers Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the more options. hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) on his crusading It is striking that some of the smaller companies, efforts on many issues in this House. He has talked which are hungry for customers, do not face those about fuel costs in the past, and now he has turned to additional costs. In fact, some of them do not impose energy bills and tariffs. I commend him for his energetic additional charges at all. That is why I cannot believe investigation across the whole of the United Kingdom that there are such huge cost differences for the larger of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to ascertain the power companies. Perhaps that is the good impact of charges and costs that are involved. competition. Why do some companies find that there This is a very pertinent issue. I am sure that many are huge costs resulting from people paying in a particular hon. Members’ constituents are facing the same difficulties way and other companies do not? Or is it that the as mine. In July, Northern Ireland’s biggest energy smaller companies are hungry for customers and wish company, Power NI, increased its household electricity to compete? If that is the case, I think there is a lesson bills by 17.8%, which meant that the average household for the Government: the more competition we have in supplied by the company paid an extra £90 per year. the power industry, the more chance we have of addressing There was a lot of disquiet across the whole of Northern these issues. Ireland about that increase. While it might be an I thank the House for listening to my arguments and inconvenience to many people, and to many others it the hon. Member for Harlow for securing the debate. I might mean the sacrifice of a luxury to cover the trust that some good will eventually come from this to difference, for some of the elderly in my constituency it help those who are on the bottom rung when it comes will mean that they have to make the choice between a to their ability to pay their power bills each month. bit of heat or something to eat. This debate could have been entitled, “Heat or Eat?” For some of the people I represent, and some of those we all represent in this 6.8 pm House, it is as specific and dire as that. Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con): I had not intended to speak, but I have been moved to make a Bob Stewart: Why does the hon. Gentleman think couple of points and did not want to take up hon. that the charges in Northern Ireland, a part of the Members’ time by intervening. I would first like to United Kingdom, seem to go up proportionately more congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow than in the rest of the United Kingdom? (Robert Halfon) on bringing this important matter to the House’s attention and ensuring that we have time to Jim Shannon: I wish I had the answer to that question, debate it. I also congratulate the Government on at but I do not. My hon. Friend the Member for East least beginning to tackle it by starting the process of Antrim (Sammy Wilson) and the hon. Member for simplifying tariffs, rather than continuing with the confusing South Down (Ms Ritchie) both said how much more situation we had before. That is important, because expensive the charges are in Northern Ireland than Opposition Members failed to tackle the problem during anywhere else in the United Kingdom. As my hon. their 13 years in government. Friend outlined, the Utility Regulator in Northern Ireland Many elderly people in my constituency are suffering does not seem to have the teeth that are needed to from the cold. The problem is exacerbated by two ensure that companies reduce their prices. We need to issues: fairness, which is the point of this debate, and address these issues. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his transparency. On fairness, as many Members have said, intervention, but unfortunately I do not have the answer it is extremely unfair that those who have the ability or that we would very much wish to have. 231 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 232

Dr McCrea: Does my hon. Friend agree that across of the impersonal way in which many of the power the United Kingdom, until the present time, the energy companies deal with those who get into financial companies have, in many ways, got away with the additional difficulties? charges? I trust that the exposure brought about by this debate will assist in doing something about that. Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. How true that is in my constituency and Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful others across the whole of the United Kingdom. intervention, which clearly highlights the issue that we are all trying to bring to the Minister’s attention. Two months ago a new Christians Against Poverty I want to speak particularly for the elderly people in scheme was set up in Ballynahinch in my constituency my constituency and across the whole of the United and there was great demand for it as a result of the Kingdom. At the Belfast pensioners parliament, Age impersonal attitude of some Departments and the Sector Platform gave a horrifying statistic: the number complexity of financial matters. People have come together of winter excess deaths in Northern Ireland in 2012 was with Christians Against Poverty on the back of the food 486. Almost 500 people died because of their exposure banks. I am one of the many Members who welcome to the winter weather. All of them were aged over 65, so food banks. I see them as a plus point for many parts of we clearly need to address that age category. It is clear the community. They bring people together who energise that older people are being hit hardest by the rising cost themselves to help others who are less well-off, which is of energy and their reduced incomes. The energy providers a trait we have not seen too much of in society in the must ensure that the elderly are on the cheapest tariffs past. It is good to see it. possible. That is not happening. Even when they are Time is flying by, so I will move on quickly. Even a told of the advantages, the language is so complicated 5% reduction to a household budget will make a big they cannot understand it. We would do well to be able difference, and that is why I welcome food banks and to understand it ourselves. the good work of Christians Against Poverty. People A good starting point would be to remove the charge are struggling, but the industry is not, and although I for those who do not pay by direct debit. The simple am firmly in favour of the free market, I am most fact is that many elderly people prefer to pay by cash or certainly not in favour of profiteering, which is what cheque, not by direct debit. Although it is simple for seems to be happening. you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and sometimes even for I was horrified to read that the profits of the big six me, to use online banking, it is clear that it is not as energy companies have shot up by 74% since 2009, simple for elderly people, who should not be penalised dwarfing the 13% rise in inflation. British Gas, E.ON, to the tune of £114 a year just because they like to EDF, npower, Scottish Power and SSE have enjoyed a collect their pension from the post office. I underline the £3.3 billion surge in profits, while households have been point made by the hon. Member for Harlow about the hit by a 29% rise in bills. My goodness, how obscene it is social contact that elderly people enjoy in the post office that on one side they are raking it in, and on the other when they pay their bills by cash, rather than by direct side they are losing out. The word “perverse” was used debit. Many do not have regular visitors, so that social earlier, and I could not describe it better. contact means much to them and its importance cannot For many people whose pay has been frozen and for be underlined enough. many of those in small businesses whose hours have I am a former business owner and I much preferred it been cut to allow the owner to stay open, such a when customers paid cash, for no other reason than situation is a gross injustice. A profit must be made—let that it meant I would get my money! Indeed, at times I me make it quite clear that we are not against profit—but would offer a small discount—or even a big one—as an there comes a stage at which we must ask whether incentive for that payment method. Now another option enough is enough. Profits from the groups that provide applies and the people who are hit hardest are those energy to 98% of homes rose from £2.15 billion in 2009 least able to afford it. to £2.22 billion in 2010, £3.87 billion in 2011 and Northern Ireland—this point has not been made £3.74 billion in 2012, while the typical domestic dual yet—does not have access to all of the alternative fuel bill now stands at £1,420 a year compared with sources of energy. My hon. Friend the Member for £1,100 in May 2010, according to the regulator, Ofgem. South Antrim (Dr McCrea) and I have discussed the Surely it is time that the energy companies did the right fact that parts of Northern Ireland and my constituency thing by the most vulnerable—the elderly—and used do not have access to gas. I wish they did. Many of my some of their profit margins to provide affordable heating constituents on the Ards peninsula and in Ballygowan, or, at the very least, not to penalise those people who Saintfield and Ballynahinch would love gas to be introduced use cash and cheques and do not feel comfortable to the area, and perhaps that will happen one day. paying by direct debit. The companies are clearly getting Our food bank in Newtownards is also involved in paid, and that, not the method of payment, is what is running the Christians Against Poverty scheme to help important. people who have debts to get on top of their issues and As other hon. Members have done, I am putting live on a budget. More and more people are deciding to forward a case on behalf of my constituents that enough get help to control their finances. is enough and that something must change soon. The question whether to heat or to eat is not one that Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): anyone in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Does my hon. Friend agree that Christians Against Northern Ireland should have to ask or answer. Although Poverty has had to involve itself with more and more we will do all in our power to help, the many businesses people, particularly elderly and vulnerable people, in that are seen to be taking advantage must take their Northern Ireland and across the UK precisely because place, do their part and help our elderly people. 233 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 234

6.21 pm done so. There is clearly something very wrong with the way that the market is operating and in how the market Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ changes have operated. Co-op): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for This issue does not affect just people on low incomes. Strangford (Jim Shannon), who made a very powerful I saw one example of somebody who spent quite a bit of speech. I join other hon. Members in congratulating the money on introducing renewable energy and energy hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) and his efficiency measures. They reduced their energy usage colleagues on tabling the motion. It has support from drastically, only to find that their energy bill went up by all parts of the House, and I am alarmed not to see my almost 600% because such a heavy standing charge was name on it. I must have missed the motion for some levied on a daily basis. That is another example of how reason, but I certainly support it fully. I hope that my those who are low energy users for various reasons speech will make up for my name not being on the list of suffer because of the way in which the system operates. its supporters on the Order Paper. Many of the issues that Members have raised today The issue of people who do not pay by direct debit are not new. The hon. Member for Harlow has performed sometimes having to pay substantially more is one a valuable service to the House by highlighting the example of how low energy users—mostly people who surcharge for non-direct debit payers. However, many are poor and vulnerable, but not always, because people of the issues that have been raised today have been sometimes choose a lifestyle involving low energy use or brought to the attention of the Government and the are fortunate enough not to use a lot of energy—by and regulators time and again. I have raised the issue of large end up paying more than high energy users. That standing charges for months. There has been some starts from tariffs: we all know that, with some exceptions, movement, but not a great deal. tariffs for people who consume more energy are cheaper, In the past few weeks, the Government have seen while those who use less have higher ones. motions passed in Back-Bench business debates, but The extra cost for those not paying by direct debit is have then ignored them. Given that today’s motion has such an example, and hon. Members have spoken at support from across the House, I hope that the Government length about the issues that that raises. Like them, I will give a positive indication of the action that they will certainly find it hard to believe that in the vast majority take on the issues that have been raised. Over the past of cases the extra charge levelled on those not paying by few winter months, some of the lowest earners and direct debit accurately reflects the extra costs to the some of the most vulnerable people in our country have companies. I rather doubt that it does, but there might yet again suffered because of the bias against them in be a case if the direct debit discount was a fair reflection the energy pricing system. We want to see action for of the extra cost that would otherwise fall on companies those people and, at the very least, we want to see action from people not paying by direct debit. However, the before next winter. amount and variety of charges indicate that they are certainly more than can in any sense be justified. 6.27 pm As hon. Members have mentioned, it is wonderful for Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): I congratulate suppliers to get people on to direct debits because, as we the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) and all know, the likelihood that they will move or even others on securing this important debate. I thank the think about switching is much less than that of those hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) who are forced into thinking about how much they pay for offering to move the motion and my hon. Friend the every quarter. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) for starting Colleagues have commented on prepayment meters. the debate in rather unusual circumstances. I also thank The hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), who is not the Backbench Business Committee for allowing us to in his place, pointed out that we are not talking about discuss these issues. the past situation in which, given the way cash was kept Ever since my right hon. Friends the Members for and all the rest of it, prepayment meters involved a Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) and for Don Valley major operation. It is now in no sense justifiable for (Caroline Flint) made their announcements on energy prepayment meter customers to have to pay so much at the Labour party conference last year, the way in more than other customers, as we all know they do. which the market works or, more accurately, does not I want to mention the higher standing charges that work has rightly come under greater scrutiny. Today’s have come about as a result of the Government’s policies debate is another symptom of that. on simplifying tariffs. The hon. Member for Braintree This debate has highlighted one of the essential facts (Mr Newmark), who is not in his place, said that the about the energy market: we have not one energy market, Government have started the process of addressing the but two, with companies targeting the lowest prices at a issue by simplifying tariffs, but the fact is that Ofgem’s small section of the market, while charging everyone recommendation that companies should effectively have else whatever they think they can get away with. That is higher standing charges is a result of its attempt to put evident when one looks at the difference in prices between into practice the Prime Minister’s hastily thought-out customers who pay by direct debit and those who pay policies. In the vast majority of cases, the standing by other means. It is also evident when one compares charge is higher than it used to be and the price per unit the prices that are paid by loyal customers, by which I of energy is lower. I am sure that all Members have had mean customers who have never switched, which is the cases of customers who are on low incomes and are low majority of people, with the prices paid by those who energy users experiencing massive increases in their have switched. Tariffs should be cost-reflective: any energy bills. Ofgem says that companies can offer zero difference for a different type of customer, payment or standing charges if they want to, but not many have account—for example, dual fuel versus single fuel—must 235 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 236

[Julie Elliott] The plans that we have set out will reintroduce competition, restore transparency and create a tough reflect only the costs that are associated with serving new energy watchdog that will actually stand up for those customers and must be justified by the savings consumers. We will inject competition by separating that suppliers enjoy. energy generation from supply and requiring all energy Ofgem is responsible for ensuring that that happens. companies to trade their energy in an open market by Following its energy supply probe in 2008, it introduced selling into a pool. We will reintroduce transparency by new rules that were designed specifically to prevent such establishing a new, simpler tariff structure so that people anti-competitive behaviour. There will of course be can compare prices, just as they could before they were marginal differences in costs between different payment made artificially complicated. methods and it is reasonable that there should be a As my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and small discount for customers who use cheaper payment Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) clearly outlined, the methods, such as direct debit. However, what we are Secretary of State may be intensely relaxed about Ofgem’s seeing is not a small difference but, in some cases, performance, but the Opposition are not. We will create discounts of as much as £100—far and away above a tough new regulator with new powers and new leadership, what could be reasonably justified. Ofgem has the power to stand up for consumers. It will have the power to to act, but it does not. The Government should be force energy companies to cut their prices when there is intervening, but they are not. evidence that reductions in wholesale costs have not The discounts for those on direct debit are not free. been passed on to consumers, as would happen if the They must be paid for by someone. They are therefore market were functioning in a properly competitive manner, being subsidised by those not paying by direct debit. In and powers of collective redress. effect, energy companies are overcharging loyal and, in Implementing those crucial reforms will take time, some cases, vulnerable customers, such as those who do which is why, with immediate action upon entering not have access to bank accounts, to pay for deep office, we will freeze prices until January 2017, when our discounts for the active segment of the market. reforms will start kicking in. That will save the typical household £120 and the average business £1,800. Robert Halfon: Will the hon. Lady give way? I am pleased that the Minister has come around to the fact that the energy market is broken. He said in an interview last week that he was unaware that three of Julie Elliott: No, I do not have much time now. the big six energy firms were not passing cuts on to The rules on tariffs being cost-reflective are clear, and fixed-price customers, and that that was unacceptable. Ofgem has the power to intervene and stop loyal customers He should pay closer attention to detail, because I being ripped off, so why has it taken no action, and why raised the issue in the House just a few weeks ago, when have the Government failed to act? My right hon. he was in his place. I welcome his change of heart, but I Friend the Member for Don Valley has repeatedly raised do not understand how it could have taken him this the question of Ofgem’s inaction, yet the Secretary of long to come to that conclusion. State has strongly disagreed with her when she has said The Labour party has been clear: we will fix the that Ofgem is not using its powers. Will the Minister of market and put an end to secret deals and unfair State, the right hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle pricing, our new regulator will stand up for consumers, (Gregory Barker), enlighten the House on whether he is and we will put all over-75s on the lowest tariff. Massive one of the Ministers cited in The Independent last week charges for non-direct-debit households are indicative who have told Ofgem that it is in the last chance saloon of a broken market, and our reforms will ensure that all and must take immediate action to improve competition? consumers get a fair deal under a Labour Government. Given that the Secretary of State referred to our plans to replace Ofgem with a regulator that actually stands up for the consumer as “silly”, perhaps it was the 6.35 pm Minister of State. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and I say gently to the hon. Member for Harlow, who Climate Change (Gregory Barker): This has been an presented his case with conviction today, that capping excellent debate and there have been thoughtful speeches the level of discount available to customers who pay by from Members across the House. I pay tribute to my direct debit is probably not the answer on its own. In all hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) likelihood, companies would just reduce the discount, for bringing this matter before the House and for framing and customers paying by standard credit or prepayment this very real question in his powerful introduction to meter would carry on paying exactly as much as they the debate. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the are now. In fact, he alluded to that point when he called Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) for fundamental reform, which is what we propose. who will speak after me. She has joined my hon. Friend The practice of overcharging people who do not pay the Member for Harlow to bring into close focus an by direct debit, in order to target the lowest prices at the issue that rightly warrants the scrutiny of Members most active end of the market, is part of a broader across the House. problem in the energy market. In a vibrant and competitive Let me be clear: the coalition Government are doing market, suppliers would compete to give their customers more than any Government before them to help hard- the best deals and the best customer service would pressed consumers with the cost of energy bills, and we reward loyal customers. In our broken energy market, are fairly, squarely and rightly on the side of British the big companies are overcharging and punishing their consumers. My hon. Friend has raised legitimate questions most loyal customers. That is why we need Labour’s about the way that consumers pay for energy by different plans to reform the energy market. methods, and the Government want to address that. We 237 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 238 share the concern that my hon. Friend has put into I am glad to tell the House that since the coalition sharp relief, but it is not a new issue. I am glad to use came to power we have seen movement back the other this debate to tell the House that Ofgem will be looking way, correcting the downward slide towards an oligopoly into the issue as part of the new competition test that we saw under the previous Labour Government. announced by the Prime Minister, to ensure that energy We are seeing new entrants to the market and unprecedented companies are living up to their obligations and licence switching. In the last two months of 2013, an unprecedented requirements, and that the interests of the British consumer number of customers switched their suppliers, hitting are at the heart of the modern energy market. the companies that penalise customers where it hurts. People voted with their wallets and moved to get a Dr McCrea: During the Minister’s remarks, can we better deal. This Government stand for empowered get away from having those on the Front Benches make consumers—not just a lucky few, but everyone. We do a political broadcast, and deal with the cross-party not want a return to a nationalised industry; we want motion before the House? Will the Minister tell the fair regulation for a fair energy sector. House—I certainly did not hear this from the Opposition Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): There were plenty Front Bench—what is happening to the concerns that of examples in the debate that made it clear that regulations we as elected representatives have on behalf of our are not being followed on prepayment meters, and that constituents, and which are summarised in the motion? Ofgem is not even using the powers it has. Rather than kicking everything off to the competition review, the Gregory Barker: I certainly intend to do that, but I Minister should ask Ofgem why on earth it is not think the hon. Gentleman is being a little unfair. I have enforcing the powers it has. It should stop letting this already mentioned the most important point of the happen. speech, which is that we have asked Ofgem to consider the matter raised by my hon. Friends the Members for Gregory Barker: The right hon. Lady suggests that Harlow and for Chatham and Aylesford, and Members the competition test, which is new, will be a distant across the House, as part of the new competition test solution and that action is needed in the meantime. The that was brought forward by the Prime Minister towards competition test is alive now and we expect the first the end of last year. That will have real teeth and will results shortly. This is not something we are kicking report within a matter of months, if not weeks. We into the long grass; this is live. She raises a legitimate expect that in the near future, and Ofgem will be tasked point on prepayment meters, as other Members have to do it. from across the House. Do not misconstrue me: this is a serious point and she is right to raise it. The Government Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I am grateful to take it very seriously. my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) We also take seriously the crux of today’s debate: are for securing this debate. I agree with the Minister that it customers who elect to pay by cash or cheque, by is welcome that Ofgem will look into this matter and at standard payment through the post or at the post office, competition, but Government policy is clearly to encourage being unfairly penalised for doing so? That is not the switching. Will he address the point raised by the hon. same as saying that everybody should pay the same. I Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) am afraid that there may be a genuine difference of about energy companies charging people who want to opinion on that point. It is not our view that all move from a prepayment meter to a more ordinary customers should pay the same. There should be healthy tariff, and the outrageous variation in costs that can competition, but—and it is a very important but—the involve? One of my constituents was quoted between differential between paying by direct debit and paying zero and £200 to have a prepayment meter removed. by cash or cheque should be cost-reflective and cost- Does that not show that the system is not functioning reflective only. That is a key element of the licence properly as a competitive market, which is something condition under which energy suppliers operate. It is Ofgem ought to investigate? vital that Ofgem looks at that forensically and in detail, and answers to Ministers who have asked whether that Gregory Barker: My hon. Friend is right and it is to is really happening. his credit that he raises an issue that invariably afflicts Albert Owen: Will the Minister give way? the poorest and most vulnerable customers. In most cases, however, those on a prepayment meter can switch Gregory Barker: In just a moment. I want to make to a supplier that will not charge them for coming off it. some progress and I have to give my hon. Friend the Even if they are on a prepayment meter, they can still Member for Chatham and Aylesford time to wrap up. switch supplier. My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow drilled to It is important that we do not become carried away the centre of the issue when he raised the fact that with the idea that the only response to getting a better Spark Energy is charging a premium of £300-plus. That deal for consumers is for Government to intervene with is staggering. Scottish Power, one of the big six created a one-size-fits-all solution. We saw what the result of by the Labour party, is offering a premium—or a discount, over-regulation was under 13 years of Labour. Ham-fisted depending on which way we look at it—of £99. The over-regulation does not actually benefit the consumer—it right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) created the big six. We saw real choice for the consumer asked why we were not doing anything. We are doing collapse under the previous Government through ham-fisted something: there is already a specific ongoing investigation inappropriate regulation. The real interests of consumers into Scottish Power. This is not just about Scottish will be served by a renaissance in competition. Relighting Power, however: for npower, that figure is £95. As the fires of competition under this market will create part of the competition test, we have asked Ofgem to real competition between energy companies. look at all the energy suppliers to ensure genuine cost 239 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 240

[Gregory Barker] get a better deal for people on direct debits as well, because they do not always get a fantastic deal. We reflection. We want to know why these costs are so know that many people do not realise they are inadvertently much more than those charged by other utilities providers, building up stores of credit with the energy companies, such as water and telephone companies. as has been highlighted by Members on both sides of the House, including the hon. Member for Sunderland Robert Halfon: My right hon. Friend is right about Central (Julie Elliott), I believe. We will soon be announcing the costs, but do we not need to look at the criteria by proposals that will give consumers a much better deal. which they are measured? That is just one of the measures we are taking to get a better deal for British consumers, particularly the most Gregory Barker: Absolutely, and of course we look at vulnerable, and comes on top of the £135 warm home the criteria. I have listened carefully today and in our discount, guaranteed winter fuel payments for pensioners discussions with my hon. Friend about the criteria, and and energy efficiency support for the most vulnerable we are asking Ofgem not to make a cursory comparison, through the ECO. but to establish forensically whether these charges are This has been a good debate. I am pleased that we genuinely cost-reflective. were able to benefit from expertise from across the House and that the concerns shared across the House Julie Elliott: Ofgem’s investigation into Scottish Power on this issue were properly aired. I pay tribute to my has been going on since March 2011. Why does the hon. Friends the Members for Harlow and for Chatham Minister have faith that Ofgem is looking into this and Aylesford for bringing it to the Floor of the House properly and will come up with a real answer? and allowing us to demonstrate that this coalition is taking action for British consumers. Gregory Barker: Ofgem will be reporting in the near future as part of the competition test. It has the necessary 6.50 pm powers, and we have made it clear that we expect a forensic analysis of the cost differentials and criteria. Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): When This is not a new phenomenon, however. The Labour my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) party had 13 years to crack it, but it took no action. asked me if I would wind up this debate, I thought it Moreover, the Leader of the Opposition spent two would be a great privilege. Now as I stand here, with my years as Secretary of State for Energy and Climate intelligent and beautiful Whip—my hon. Friend the Change, so the question is not “Why has it taken since Member for Guildford (Anne Milton)—sitting on the 2011?”, but “Why did Labour do nothing, between Front Bench with her pen poised, I am beginning to 1997 and 2010, when it had the time, the power, the wonder whether this will determine whether I shall be a majority and the authority?” What did Labour do? Minister in the future. The Minister was kind enough to Zero, zip, nothing. So before they ask, in high dudgeon, offer me some advice, which was: “You’ll do a good job, why we are not acting faster, would they please explain but please try not to do a great job.” I shall therefore do why they did nothing to help consumers for 13 years? my best to satisfy both the Whip and the Minister, but When we get a credible answer, we will give their criticisms also to reflect the important aspects raised in this afternoon’s more credit. debate. I do not want to go off on a completely partisan rant, I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing however, because some good questions have been raised, this important debate and congratulate my hon. Friend and I do not want to diminish their seriousness. We take the Member for Harlow on securing it. He is a tireless the issue of prepayment meters and standard payments campaigner who always puts his case so expertly, as he seriously, but we are also looking at direct debits. Some has today. His speech was very clear in setting out the 55% of people pay by direct debit and 45% pay by scale of the problem. He recognised that the Government standard payment. have done much on the need to protect consumers, especially when experiencing additional charges. He Albert Owen: Did I understand the Minister correctly? outlined the case incredibly well, as did many others. On cost reflection, he said that Ofgem still had the It is important to note that until the shadow Minister’s power to intervene over the licence. I understood that in speech and the Minister’s speech, there was a great deal 2012 it gave up that power and introduced the retail of consensus across the House on helping the most market review. Is he now saying that Ofgem can still vulnerable consumers. The motion focuses on the 17 energy exercise that power? If so, why does he not tell it to do companies that are subjecting customers who do not so? Then this debate would be null and void. want to pay by direct debits to charges. It is a great honour that 179 colleagues signed the motion, which Gregory Barker: We have done it already. The hon. shows how important this issue is to us in representing Gentleman was not listening. We have spoken to Ofgem, our constituents. and it has confirmed publicly what we have discussed Those who spoke did so with passion. The hon. privately—that this will form a key part of the competition Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) did a great job of assessment. That is a new development, and a sign that standing in at the start. He spoke on energy prices in the Government take this seriously and are on the side general and praised the work of the Select Committee of consumers. We will not wait 13 years to do something on Energy and Climate Change. Like him, I was reluctant about it. to switch to direct debit initially, preferring, like millions We are not just acting for people on prepayment of other people across the country, to have control over meters or trying to get a better deal for people who pay when I pay my bills, based on the energy I use. That was by a standard payment method; we are taking action to reflected in many contributions this afternoon. 241 Energy Company Charges4 FEBRUARY 2014 Energy Company Charges 242

The hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) who pay their bills at the post office. As a Member of is a consumer champion on many issues. Her emphasis Parliament who highlights the problem of isolation, today on prepayment meters demonstrated characteristic particularly among the elderly, he was absolutely right concern for our poorest in society. I listened carefully to to raise that issue. what she had to say. The hon. Member for Redcar (Ian The hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith Swales) spoke of one of his constituents and raised (Mark Lazarowicz) certainly made amends for not signing similar concerns about prepayment meters. The Minister the motion by speaking so knowledgeably about the heard those concerns loud and clear, as I am sure did issue. That was hardly surprising, given his long-term those listening to the debate. I hope that the energy advocacy of consumer protection. He did a good job in, companies also took on board some of the issues that as it were, providing the 180th signature. were raised. I have a great deal of time and respect for the hon. The hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott), whom I McDonagh) used constituency casework as the basis of call a friend outside the Chamber, but I have to say that, her contribution to today’s debate. I was fascinated by given the tone of the debate, I was rather disappointed the excellent project she highlighted, an advice day by her response. Opposition Members should remember surgery involving the big six. With her permission, I that the ripping off of consumers by energy companies might steal it for my constituency, which has areas of did not begin in May 2010, and that the Labour party deprivation and where we see concerns among particular had 13 years in which to stand up for vulnerable consumers pockets of energy consumers about paying their bills. I and did not do so. The Minister made that point as well, will be in touch with her office to find out precisely how but I was very sad that the debate ended on a party she did that. political note. The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) said I was thrilled to become involved in the campaign that the charges should be seen in a wider economic initiated by my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow. context. She also said that many people felt that they Like many others, I did so because I was contacted by a were being penalised for not paying by direct debit, a constituent. Mr Steele, who lives in Lordswood, contacted view that was reflected throughout the debate. I agree me because he wanted to pay a number of utility bills with the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) that this is online, but felt that he was being penalised for doing so. as much about social exclusion as it is about unfair He said that British Gas had had the cheek to remind charges for those who cannot pay for utilities by direct him that he would have been £67 better off if he had debit because, for example, they do not have bank paid his gas bill by direct debit, and £33 better off if he accounts. He made that case extremely well. had paid his electricity bill by that method. As a fellow south-east Member, I agree with what It has been made very clear that Members want more was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey transparency for their constituents when it comes to and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) about rural energy charges. We know that the charges are high and broadband. However, I think it important to note that that they are often hard to justify in view of price those who pay online are not immune to stealth charges. increases and the large profits made by the industry, but The problem does not just affect those who post cheques it is unacceptable that customers are being penalised for or take them to the post office. choosing to manage their payments in a way that is The hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) convenient for them. The motion notes that 45% of made an incredibly important contribution on behalf of people do not pay their energy bills by direct debit, and his constituents. He pointed out that 38% of people in are being charged for not doing so. I hope that the Northern Ireland pay bills by direct debit, as against energy companies will note what has been said here 55% in the United Kingdom overall. I thought that that today, and will rectify the position immediately. was a very interesting statistic, and I hope that work will Question put and agreed to. be done to establish the reason for it. Resolved, My hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) spoke of the need for fairness and That this House is disappointed that 17 energy companies in the UK charge their customers more if they do not pay their bills transparency for our constituents, especially, but not by direct debit; acknowledges that some firms do not charge their exclusively, the elderly. He said that those who paid bills customers any extra at all; notes that Department of Energy and on time should not be penalised. He also made the very Climate Change statistics show that this adds £114 to the average fair point that Labour Members, who had been very consumer’s bill; further notes that 45 per cent of people do not critical of some of the Government’s measures, had had pay their energy bills by direct debit; recognises that over one 13 years in which to sort the problem out, and had not million people in the UK do not have access to a bank account; done so. believes that these charges are a stealth tax on the poor; and therefore urges Ofgem to hold an inquiry into these practices, The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) encourages energy companies to operate with more transparency, praised the good work of Christians Against Poverty, and urges the Government to consider ways of limiting these and spoke of the importance of social contact to those charges, such as by introducing a cap. 243 4 FEBRUARY 2014 244

PETITION Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid) Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Planned Closure of the Portland Coastguard do now adjourn—(Anne Milton.) Helicopter Base

7pm 7.1 pm Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): Picking up on Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab): I the campaign zeal I have experienced in the past 20 minutes am very sorry to have to rise in my place tonight to in the Chamber, may I say our fight to retain the bring this debate to the Floor of the House of Commons. Portland search and rescue helicopter continues? The For nearly three years I have worked to avoid this petitioners have raised 105,000 or more signatures and I debate, and I come here tonight because I have been left want to pay special tribute to the team that in the main with no other choice. went out in wind or rain: Belinda Craig, Patricia Joy, Let me say at the outset that there is no more determined Debra Joy and Shelley Cutler. I also want to thank campaigner for the police of my city than me. For 10 Roger McPherson, who has played a large part in years as a Member of this House I have campaigned for co-ordinating that, Councillor Sandy West, a Labour bigger, stronger police teams. I have run half-marathons councillor on the island of Portland, who has been very and triathlons to raise money for the West Midlands supportive and Dr Ian Mew, a consultant at Dorchester Police Benevolent Fund, and it has been my privilege on county hospital, who has provided advice and help. the Floor of the House to praise the bravery of officers The petition states: such as PC Adam Koch and his colleague who literally The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons risked their lives to save worshippers recently at a Ward urges the Department for Transport to reverse the decision to End mosque. I am motivated tonight by their courage, close Portland coastguard helicopter base. because I believe our police are so important to our Following is the full text of the petition: communities that they deserve to have the best team around them, but I am motivated too by an injustice [ The Petition of residents of South Dorset, that I want to bring to the attention of the Government. Declares that the Government plans to close Portland Because the police service is a human and not a coastguard helicopter base, despite protests from local divine organisation, sometimes there are shortcomings, people, MPs and hospital consultants; and further that but if we want the best police service, it is important the Petitioners believe that there may be lives lost as a that we do not stand by when there are shortcomings; it result of losing this search and rescue facility. is important that we act. For three years now I have The Petitioners therefore request that the House of been seeking to help a constituent of mine to act. My Commons urges the Department for Transport to reverse constituent’s case is sub judice, but I can give the House the decision to close Portland coastguard helicopter base. the essence. My constituent’s son, a boy she loved, died And the Petitioners remain, etc.] in police custody—a tragedy the pain of which I, as a father of three children, cannot possibly imagine—but [P001317] this tragedy is deeper and darker for the alleged culpability of police officers who were paid by us on that night to keep my constituent’s son safe.

Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I am very glad my right hon. Friend has brought before the House this issue of people who die in custody. I have informed the Minister of the case of my constituent Philmore Mills. His case is very unusual. He was in hospital in a lung ward, and on 11 December 2011 the staff were made anxious by his behaviour. They called the police and the police restrained him, and he died under police restraint. The inquest into that death is due on 1 April—two and a half years later—yet his family still do not know if they are going to have legal aid for representation at that inquest and they are thus made more anxious still. Their dad was in hospital with a breathing problem, yet he died at the hands of the police. They should be legally represented without having to pay.

Mr Speaker: Order. May I remind Members that they should be very careful about reference to live cases because of the sub judice rule?

Mr Byrne: Thank you, Mr Speaker; I am also grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) for her intervention. In the months that followed the death of my constituent’s son, the family and I sought, together with the Independent Police Complaints Commission, to ensure that the police 245 Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid)4 FEBRUARY 2014 Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid) 246 officers involved were judged. I am sorry to say that Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I have had a similar case in they were judged to have been so negligent, and to have my constituency. The inquest has now taken place, fallen so far short of their sworn duty, that they were Mr Speaker. James was in his 20s, and he was mentally found guilty of gross misconduct. ill. He was restrained and, unfortunately, died in police Now, the family are approaching the last trial of their custody. When the police force in question has access to strength: the inquest. It will be their final opportunity unlimited legal advice and expertise at no quantifiable to find the truth of why and how their son died. Yes, it cost, is it not an outrage that the parents, who are so might bring grief, but I hope that it will also bring closure. vulnerable at a time like that, should be asked to seek The inquest is also important for our community, because advice from a local solicitor who is not an expert in it could provide critical insights that would help us to mental health or deaths in custody? ensure that others need never suffer the same fate. Despite my representations and the arguments that Mr Byrne: Let me deal with a point directly. The we have put forward, the family have been told that they family did not choose to be in this position; the Coroners must pay to have questions put on their behalf during Act 1988 demands an inquest. We in this House are the the proceedings. Like me, they are outraged. The original people who insist on the position my constituents are bill was going to be nearly £7,500. It is true that their now in, and we do so for a very good reason: we want to costs have now been reduced, but our system has become know what happened. Our predecessors in this Parliament perverse. The fact that the family are having to provide felt so strongly about the unchecked actions of an a smaller cut of their savings cannot be judged a great arbitrary state that they deposed the monarch and success. fought a war to insist on the liberty of the individual and a measure of their protection—we want to know Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I thought that my what happened. right hon. Friend would like to know that the Home Affairs Select Committee will be opening an inquiry Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): There were 5,998 into the issues of deaths in police custody, and policing deaths in police custody in the 11 years from 1 January and mental health, later this year. It will also look into 2000 to 31 December 2010. Does the right hon. Gentleman legal aid provision for the families involved. agree that there must be a method for families to access support in suspicious cases and that legal aid is an Mr Byrne: That is very welcome, and I hope that my important part of that support for grieving families? right hon. Friend and his Committee will be able to draw the right conclusions and, perhaps, use some of Mr Byrne: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. the evidence from the case that I am raising here tonight. Some will say, “We should not get too worked up about My point is very simple: when a family have lost their this. The inquest process is inquisitorial not adversarial. son while he was in the custody of the state, and when It is just a gentle canter around the facts.” But when we servants of the Crown have been judged guilty of gross are dealing with death in custody, it is different. How misconduct, it is a gross injustice to tell that family that can we tell? It is because the public servants represented they must now help to pay their costs at the inquest into at the inquests will not just have one lawyer; they will how their son lost his life. have teams of lawyers, paid for by the taxpayer, on their side. We have to ask ourselves: how can we allow such a I know the objections to my arguments. There are few profound inequality of arms in the inquest room? How in the House who know the pressures on the legal aid can we pretend to ourselves that that is evenly remotely budget as well as I do. As Chief Secretary to the equal, fair or right? There is no growing evidence, not Treasury, I too had to negotiate reductions to that fund. just in my home city of Birmingham, but across the However, if we cannot fund an inquest into a death of country, that wrongful legal aid decisions are being which the state appears to be culpable, we have got it made in cases such as this. Many in this House will have wrong. Our article 2 obligations demand a thorough seen the tragic case confronting Alex Kelly’s family, investigation of state action and culpability in cases which was highlighted in The Observer on Sunday, and such as these. Like me, the Minister knows that, following INQUEST, an organisation I wish to praise to high the case of Main in 2007, a wider public interest test heaven, has brought to me a number of other cases must be satisfied if legal aid is to be awarded. A death in where bad decisions are being made in our name. state custody, especially when Crown servants have been found negligent, must surely satisfy that test. We in In the short time remaining to me, I want to put five this House agreed to that principle when we passed the questions to the Minister. I appreciate that he will not Coroners and Justice Act 2009. Section 51 of that Act be able to answer all of them tonight, so I hope that he extended the principle of public funding for advocacy will follow up in writing and that the House will be able at inquests such as these. to return to this subject, perhaps in the light of the report by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester As a parliamentarian, I want to know what happened East (Keith Vaz) later in the year. First, will the Minister on that night. That is the wider public interest test that meet me to discuss the legal aid decision in my constituent’s is being satisfied here. I want to know whether we need case? The case clearly meets the threshold of having changes to the law, or to the organisation of the police “wider public interest’” set out in section 2.4 of the service. I want to know that, so that I can help to bring Legal Services Commission’s funding code criteria, which those changes forward. I do not want this House, this refers to the “potential” of the proceedings Government, or this Minister to be kept in the dark. I do not want the comfort of ignorance. I want to know “to produce real benefits for individuals other than the client”. why my constituent’s son died, and I want to know what Secondly, when will the Lord Chancellor bring into we must do together in this House to ensure that none effect section 51 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, of our constituents ever has to face the same fate. which will extend advocacy support to those who died 247 Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid)4 FEBRUARY 2014 Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid) 248

[Mr Byrne] decisions. However, I fully appreciate the clear frustration of the right hon. Gentleman, which he has made abundantly in custody? No stand part debate was held on that clear to us, and the even greater frustration of Mr Butler’s measure and, to the best of my knowledge, the Minister family. It appears that a long time elapsed between the was not in the House to vote on the Bill on Third initial application and the final decision on funding. I Reading. I do not believe the Conservative party or the believe that, along the way, there was also an inquiry Liberal Democrats opposed this legislation when it was conducted by the Independent Police Complaints brought to the House, so will the Government give us a Commission. date for bringing in section 51 as soon as possible? Thirdly, will the Minister confirm that it is ministerial Fiona Mactaggart: My constituent’s family have been policy, and not simply administrative discretion, to seek told that there will not be a decision about eligibility for a contribution from the family in inquests where a legal aid until the opening of the inquest on 1 April. death in state custody has occurred? Fourthly, will the The Minister seems to imply that there could be a Minister tonight agree to a review of the way families decision before that date. Will he explain why the coroner are offered support and funding for inquest costs, not from Berkshire has said that no decision will be made least because there is now evidence that the process is on whether there will be a Middleton inquiry until the out of control, with the most invasive questions being inquest is open? asked of families in order for them to prove they do not Mr Vara: The hon. Lady seeks to tempt me into have the resources to help contest these cases? Finally, territory into which I cannot go. What I will say is that will the Minister tell us how many families have been as far as her constituent’s case is concerned, the process asked to make a contribution since 2010? What is the is still ongoing. As I understand it, a decision on legal total bill that families in this country are now paying for aid has not been made, and dialogue is still going on. I cases such as this? trust she will accept that. When I asked my constituent what she wanted from Although I cannot comment on the decision concerning tonight’s debate, her answer was as generous as she is Mr Butler’s family, I understand from the Legal Aid compassionate. “Hopefully,” she said, “we can change Agency that there was an issue concerning financial this for other people so that they will not have to suffer eligibility and whether it was appropriate for the family what we have suffered.” When all is said and done, the to pay a contribution, which is something that the right question at the heart of this debate is simple. It is the hon. Gentleman mentioned. I hope I can assist the story of a mother’s loss, a mother’s love and a mother’s House by explaining how the means test is applied to search for justice. Will we, in this House, stand on a inquest cases. Legal aid for the representation of bereaved mother’s side, or will we stand against her? When we families at inquests is means-tested, like nearly every begin work in this House each day, we pray for strength other element of the civil legal aid scheme. It is important and wisdom to make the right decisions. I hope that we that we focus our limited resources on those who need can now call on that strength and wisdom and make the them the most, and the means test is an important and right decisions in the case of my constituent and her long-standing part of the legal aid system which has lost son. been in place since well before this Government came to power. 7.15 pm There is discretion to waive the financial eligibility limits for inquests if, in all the circumstances, it would The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice not be reasonable to expect the family to bear the full (Mr Shailesh Vara): I congratulate the right hon. Member costs of legal assistance at the inquest. Whether that is for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) on securing reasonable will depend in particular on the history of this debate, which is on a subject that we can all agree is the case, the circumstances, the issues raised against extremely important. On behalf of the Government, I state institutions, the applicant’s assessed disposable extend my condolences to the Butler family. It is bad income and capital, the other financial resources of the enough that somebody should die—it is difficult for any family and the estimated costs of providing representation. family member to put up with that—but the circumstances Contributions from the applicant can also be waived in in which Mr Butler died makes it even harder to accept. whole or part. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will accept that That is the position under the Legal Aid, Sentencing I cannot comment in specific details about any case. I and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, but it was also hope that the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) the position under the Access to Justice Act 1999, the will appreciate that, too. I can, however, speak in general legislation that applied to Mr Butler’s case. terms. I will try to address as many of the issues that the right hon. Gentleman has raised as I can, and if there is Mr Byrne: The Minister is replying in a courteous anything left over, I will certainly write to him. and thoughtful manner. He has given us a number of I understand that this case deals with legal aid legislation, helpful words about the broad principles of the means- but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will appreciate testing regime, but I hope he will not elide over the that the Access to Justice Act 1999 was introduced by a point that when we passed the 2009 Act we decided to Labour Government. It is under that legislation that include section 51, which accepted that there were wider decisions about exceptional funding cases concerning public interests at play in inquests that delved into deaths in police custody, or during the course of police deaths in state custody and explicitly provided for full arrest, search, pursuit or shooting, are dealt with solely legal aid costs to be provided to families in such cases. by the director of legal aid casework at the Legal Aid The Lord Chancellor has not implemented section 51. Agency, which is the successor body of the Legal Services The arguments about it have already been rehearsed Commission. Ministers have no role in those individual and the House has passed it. When will it be implemented? 249 Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid)4 FEBRUARY 2014 Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid) 250

Mr Vara: In the same way as the previous Administration statutory scheme all individual decisions on legal aid, did not implement it for 11 years— including exceptional funding decisions, are taken by the director of legal aid casework at the Legal Aid Mr Byrne: It was the 2009 Act. Agency. However, the Lord Chancellor has published guidance Mr Vara: Well, the previous Government made provision setting out the general circumstances in which he considers for it but they did not implement it. I do not know when that exceptional funding may be required under section it will be implemented, but I am happy to reflect on that 10 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of matter and write to the right hon. Gentleman. Let me Offenders Act 2012. The director of legal aid casework put on the record that the criteria under the Access to is not bound by that guidance, but he must have regard Justice Act still apply, as that was the Act that was to it when reaching individual decisions, together with applicable when Mr Butler’s case first arose. any representations made by applicants on the individual case or any new and relevant case law. Tessa Munt: Will the Minister give way? Under section 10 of LASPO, the director of legal aid casework can grant exceptional funding for representation Mr Vara: I shall give way for the very last time and on at an inquest where it is required by article 2 of the the understanding that the hon. Lady will be very brief, European convention on human rights, to which the as I am determined to get through a lot of material that right hon. Gentleman referred. Article 2 confers a “right I must put on the record. to life” and imposes on states a substantive obligation not to take life without justification and to establish a Tessa Munt: I shall be brief. When the Minister is framework of laws, precautions and means of enforcement reviewing the situation, will he consider whether it is that will, to the greatest extent reasonably practicable, appropriate for applicants to be pressured—there is no protect life. The other ground on which the director can other word to describe it—to seek local and non-specialist grant funding for representation at an inquest is where advice from solicitors and therefore barristers who have representation for the family is likely to produce significant no knowledge about taking on something such as a wider public benefits, meaning significant benefits for a police force, with all its expertise? class of person other than the members of the family involved. Mr Vara: I hope that the hon. Lady will appreciate On the coronial system, I know that concerns persist that I cannot comment on pressures in the individual about the length of time some cases take to progress. cases to which she is alluding or on specific cases. The Coroners and Justice Act 2009 includes a number Guidance issued by the Lord Chancellor under the of provisions that will help to tackle delays in the 1999 Act says on contributions: coronial system, including a new power for the Chief “Where it is appropriate for a contribution to be payable this Coroner to direct a coroner to conduct an investigation may be based upon the applicant’s disposable income and disposable into a death. There is now greater flexibility on where capital in the usual way ignoring upper eligibility limits. Contributions post-mortem examinations and inquests can be held. should always be based on what can reasonably be afforded by the They can now happen outside the coroner’s area. applicant and his or her family in all the circumstances of the case.” The 2009 Act also requires coroners to notify the Chief Coroner of any investigation that has lasted more It is worth underlining that we do not have a red-line than 12 months. The Chief Coroner is then required to rule on financial eligibility for inquests in the same way provide a summary of such cases in his annual report to as we do for most other categories of law for which civil the Lord Chancellor, which is laid before Parliament, legal aid is available. There are a large number of together with reasons for the delays and any steps he is variables, as I have mentioned, that the Legal Aid taking to prevent such delays from becoming unnecessarily Agency considers when deciding whether to exercise its lengthy. discretion to waive the limits. While this debate has focused on legal aid, the coronial It is also worth making it clear that, contrary to system and the police, there is, of course, a broader certain reports, there has been no substantive change to issue at stake. Let me be clear that the Government take legal aid provision for inquests as a result of the recent deaths in custody extremely seriously. Deaths in custody reforms to the system. On that issue, both the right hon. are among the most scrutinised of all incidents. All Gentleman’s party and mine are in agreement. Let me deaths in custody are subject to a number of investigations, assure the House that legal aid for inquests has been including, in the case of police custody, an independent protected by this Government. investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Legal help—in other words, the advice and assistance Commission. Of course, an inquest is also held. Those level of legal aid—remains within the general scope of investigations will usually involve the participation of the scheme, subject to merits and means-testing. That the bereaved family. can cover all the preparatory work associated with the I should like to acknowledge the ongoing work of the inquest, which might include preparing written submissions ministerial council on deaths in custody, which incorporates to the coroner. Notwithstanding the pressure on the senior decision makers, experts and practitioners in the public finances, the Government made a clear commitment field. This allows for an extended, cross-sector approach to bereaved families by ensuring that legal help was to deaths in custody and is designed to ensure better retained in inquest cases. learning and sharing of information. The council works Legal aid for representation can also be provided to ensure that lessons learned in any area of state exceptionally where certain criteria are met. Those criteria custody are disseminated across the police, prisons, have remained largely unchanged from those that operated approved premises, immigration, detention, and secure under the 1999 Act. Let me be clear that under the new hospitals. The council commenced operation in 2009 251 Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid)4 FEBRUARY 2014 Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid) 252

[Mr Vara] Government’s position on deaths in custody more generally. To the extent that there are matters outstanding, I am and is jointly funded by the Ministry of Justice, the happy to write to the right hon. Gentleman and, indeed, Department of Health and the Home Office. The House to have a meeting with him as well, although, as I say, will want to know that funding has been extended until my ability to influence the Legal Aid Agency is somewhat March 2015. limited. Let me again thank the right hon. Gentleman and all Question put and agreed to. other hon. Members who have spoken. I hope that I have been able to offer some reassurance as to the position concerning legal aid, what the Government are 7.30 pm doing to tackle delays in the coronial system, and the House adjourned. 1WH 4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 2WH

When I look at Polish residents in my constituency, I Westminster Hall note that they have an active social centre and, indeed, their own Polish Catholic church, both of which are Tuesday 4 February 2014 close to my constituency office. We do not have a separate planning system for Poles, allowing them to live together with planning rights not available to the [MRS LINDA RIORDAN in the Chair] rest of the population, but they have managed to maintain their identity and cultural heritage by meeting together Gypsy and Traveller Policy regularly. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting I see no reason why there should be any loss of Gypsy be now adjourned.—(Mark Lancaster.) or Traveller identity from what I am proposing. To achieve what I am proposing, I am calling on the 9.30 am Minister to introduce primary legislation in the forthcoming Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): It is Queen’s Speech to amend section 225 of the Housing a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan Act 2004, which requires a separate housing needs —[Interruption.] assessment for Travellers and Gypsies. I am also calling for the Human Rights Act 1998 to be similarly amended Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Order. There is a as well as, if necessary, those sections of the Equality problem with the sound recording equipment. Without Act 2010 that apply to Gypsies and Travellers. a recording of the proceedings, no Official Report can be produced, so I am suspending the sitting until the David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I congratulate problem has been resolved. the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. I do not disagree with him about a single planning policy; we 9.31 am should not differentiate Travellers, or any other ethnic Sitting suspended. group. However, does he agree that it is important that, wherever it settles, the Traveller community should abide 9.41 am by the rules of the local community? We have had serious problems with the condition of sites in Northern On resuming— Ireland. That issue must be dealt with as well. Andrew Selous: I ask all who speak in this important debate to do so in a calm and measured way as we Andrew Selous: I completely agree with the hon. discuss sensitive issues concerning our fellow citizens. Gentleman. We are all equal under, and have a duty to obey, the law. A separate planning system for Gypsies and Travellers has been developed in this country since part II of the The current twin-track, separated planning system—one Caravan Sites Act 1968 was enacted. That part was for Gypsies and Travellers and one for settled residents— repealed by the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, greatly threatens and undermines community cohesion but the Human Rights Act 1998 and section 225 of the and causes significant fear, distrust and upset to both Housing Act 2004 recreated a parallel planning system Travellers and settled residents. If someone can demonstrate, for Gypsies and Travellers. I have no doubt that that or simply declare, that they are a Gypsy or Traveller, was done with the best of intentions, but it is no longer they acquire highly lucrative planning rights not available appropriate for the settled or Traveller communities. to the rest of the population. Such rights are granted to Many local councillors share that view. some individuals who are very wealthy, or become so as a result; they are not all vulnerable individuals. That We know from the 2011 census that 76%—more than opens up the system to massive abuse from some people three quarters—of Gypsies and Travellers live in houses, seeking to gain such lucrative planning rights. bungalows or flats, while only 24%—less than a quarter— live in caravans or mobile homes. Thus, the existing Many able-bodied Travellers do not in fact travel for separate planning law for Gypsies and Travellers applies a living. Often, settled residents travel more, on business, only to less than a quarter of their population in the than some so-called Travellers. United Kingdom. I cannot think of any other group in the UK, whether vulnerable or not, that we seek to Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): ghettoise in such a way. We must look at whether such Is there not another point, which is certainly true in the separation in the planning system has worked for the case of Sussex police? If someone claims to be a Traveller, benefit of Gypsies and Travellers; I think that the the police simply accept that as fact. No effort is undertaken evidence suggests that it has not. to ascertain whether they really are of that ethnic At 47%, Gypsies and Travellers have the lowest level identity. of work of any ethnicity. The comparable figure for the English and Welsh population is 63%. Of Gypsy and Andrew Selous: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Traveller adults, 60% have no qualifications, whereas The reality is that anyone can self-declare as a Traveller. the corresponding figure for the rest of the nation is I very much welcomed the written ministerial statement 23%. A compassionate case can be made for integrating made by the Minister on 17 January in which he committed Gypsies and Travellers into one assessment of housing to looking at that issue. need in every local authority. If it is necessary to provide I cannot believe that it is right that some schools, places to park for travelling caravans and some fields such as that in the village of Braybrooke in the for grazing horses belonging to Gypsies and Travellers constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering to bring about one cohesive planning system for the (Mr Hollobone), should be entirely occupied by Traveller whole population, I believe that that should be done. children. I do not believe that that is in their own best 3WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 4WH

[Andrew Selous] are within four miles of the village of Stanbridge, contradicting the Secretary of State’s statement on interests, not least given Traveller children’s high rates 25 November 2013 that Traveller sites should not dominate of absence. For Irish-heritage Travellers, the 2008 national villages. pupil database showed primary school absence rates of Large pitch numbers tend to produce large further more than 24% and secondary school absence rates of needs assessments, leading to ever-increasing pitch more than 27%. I believe that if the children of Travellers requirements. The travellers on the unauthorised Mile were integrated across a greater number of schools, they Tree Farm site in my constituency are from Aylesbury, I would be more likely to conform to the higher attendance believe, yet are counted against Central Bedfordshire’s rates of the majority. needs assessment. That is wrong and unfair, as are the The current separate planning system for Gypsies enormous legal costs that council tax payers must bear and Travellers often takes no account of the proper when local authorities challenge the unfair system. provision of facilities in rural locations, specifically those for sewerage and sanitation. Harm is often caused to the local environment by hedgerows being illegally Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) pulled out, pollution of the local water courses and (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that it is sometimes farmland, and sometimes encroachment on others’ land. not only local councils but local communities that bear enormous legal costs? In one case in my constituency, an applicant at a planning appeal has sought costs Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): The hon. Gentleman against local residents, purely because they had the is making an interesting case. In view of the difficulties courage to stand up and speak about what they believed he is describing, does he accept that a lot of problems in for their community and their village. have been caused over the decades by a severe shortage of both permanent and transit Gypsy and Traveller sites around the country as a whole? If that shortage Andrew Selous: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for was addressed, we would not be having to deal with all putting that point on the record. She highlights the fact the problems he has described. that there are many legal disputes. They do not promote community cohesion and are expensive for all concerned, whether individuals or, as often happens, council tax Andrew Selous: I would welcome a proper analysis of payers through local authorities. how many transit sites we actually need. Many of my constituents have said to me that they in the settled Paragraph 15 of the March 2012 planning policy for community travel more, for business, than many Travellers. Traveller sites seems to blunt the impact of the Minister’s I am proposing a single, compassionate, overall housing written ministerial statement of 17 January on the green needs assessment for everyone—everyone in this country belt; that is another reason why I believe that nothing needs housing. I would also point out that more than less than primary legislation will do. I do not believe the three quarters of Travellers already live in bricks and current situation is tenable, because central Government mortar houses, and that I would not take away their are forcing local authorities to take many extremely right to own caravans. unpalatable decisions that are causing a great deal of anxiety and anger in rural and urban communities. As I Many villages in my constituency, such as Billington, said, that does not aid community cohesion. I believe Stanbridge, Tilsworth, and Heath and Reach, feel strongly that we are all equal under the law. That is an very threatened by the large number of Travellers and important principle, but many of my constituents in the Gypsies being sited in their communities to comply settled community do not believe that equality under with current Government requirements. Specifically, the law exists at the moment and feel highly discriminated the current requirement to accommodate a growth in against. the Gypsy and Traveller household net formation of 3% every year is causing massive problems. Although I The education and skills of Traveller children are would like to scrap the whole system, it is imperative more likely to increase if they are integrated with children that while it continues a more accurate figure is used, from the settled community over a much wider area, so which I believe would be nearer 1.5%. I also believe that that they do not dominate any particular school. I also the Pat Niner review that called for a 3% figure was believe that Traveller children and their parents would based on the arrival of large numbers of Travellers from follow the example of the majority of children and have Ireland after the Irish Government changed the law. higher rates of attendance and a greater desire to achieve The Irish Planning and Development Act 2000 made the qualifications and skills necessary to secure sustained development without planning permission a criminal employment. offence. I repeat my request to the Minister to introduce After that, in 2002, Irish law changed again to make primary legislation to deal with the situation in the trespass a criminal offence in certain circumstances, forthcoming Queen’s Speech and, in the interim, which I believe caused numerous Irish Travellers to immediately to lower the 3% net household formation come over to England and Wales, resulting in a spike in annual growth requirement for Gypsies and Travellers the numbers that led to the 3% figure that is causing to around 1.5%, as I do not believe that the evidence problems at the moment. supports the 3% figure and it is causing huge difficulty to local authorities and our constituents. The current law penalises authorities that have made significant Traveller provision, such as my own, Central Bedfordshire council, which had 197 pitches in November Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): I congratulate the 2013. In addition, almost 60% of the total 247 pitches hon. Gentleman on keeping his speech short and relevant. and plots listed in the Gypsy and Traveller local plan Hopefully, we will fit in all Members who wish to speak. 5WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 6WH

Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): On a point of council chambers up and down the country, there are order, Mrs Riordan. You will know that at the start few subjects more hotly contested the provision of of this debate, there was a 10-minute delay while the Traveller sites. Travellers require a range of accommodation microphones were not working. This is an important provision, encompassing sites, housing and roadside and well attended debate. What advice have you had camps, in order to meet their individual needs and from the Chairman of Ways and Means about whether circumstances. For many Travellers, travelling is not so 10 minutes could be added to the end of this debate, much a lifestyle choice as a strong part of their cultural and subsequently to the rest of the day? heritage. Traditionally, many Travellers had a wintering place and then travelled throughout the rest of the year, Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): I have no discretion and some follow a similar pattern today, living in one as the Chair of this debate to extend the sitting, because place during the winter so that, for example, their question time begins in the House at 11.30. children can go to school, and travelling during the summer. 9.54 am The first council-owned site in Scotland was established Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): It is a pleasure only in 1978, in Argyll and Bute. During the 1980s and to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I early 1990s, local authorities made use of a Scottish congratulate the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire Office grant scheme to build sites, but some sites have (Andrew Selous) on securing this debate. since fallen into disrepair and others have closed. Existing The term “Travelling people” covers groups found council site provision in Scotland does not meet demand across the country, in Scotland, Ireland and England, or the needs of Travellers, but many communities are and across Europe. All regard travelling as an important still averse to supporting local Traveller sites—all agree aspect of their ethnic and cultural identity. This debate that there should be sites, but not near them. In my is not concerned with certain other groups such as, for constituency, we find that although we need to provide example fairground travellers—show people—or new a campsite, local people object if it is to be situated near age travellers, although obviously some of the issues them. They all want an official campsite, but not beside that we will mention, such as the education of children, them. affect all sorts of travelling people. Recently, my council set aside monies to establish a In my own area of the country, Scotland, references site, but communities disputed both the site position to the presence of Travellers can be found as early as the and whether it was the best use of money in these 12th century. There is a number of theories about the austere times. That is understandable, but money will origin of Travellers: some people argue that Travellers still have to be spent to clean up unofficial sites used by can trace their roots to a Celtic or perhaps pre-Celtic Travelling people, such as roadside camps. In recent population; others suggest that they may descend from years, councils have blocked off many of the traditional Roman slaves brought over to Britain, although on the roadside stopping places used by Travellers; as a result, evidence that can be identified, that sounds improbable. Travellers have been compelled to camp in places that The most recent estimate is that there are more than are closer to the settled population, which has often 1,500 Travellers in Scotland at any one time, but the become a source of tension. Given the inadequate true figure is unknown. The Scottish figure excludes provision of council-owned sites and the difficulties in thousands of Travellers living in housing for some or getting planning permission for private sites, roadside all of the year, and many people are afraid to identify camping can be the only option for some families. As I themselves as Travellers because they fear discrimination. say, roadside camping is often blamed for causing mess, Travellers themselves estimate that there are more than which can incur rather hefty clean-up costs. 15,000 Travellers in Scotland at any one time. We recognise that Travellers engage in a wide variety What of the UK-wide situation in sectors that affect of employment, including the world of entertainment. Travellers, such as health and education? Many health Famous people connected with Travellers include Charlie services continue to exclude Travellers. Some GP surgeries Chaplin, Rita Hayworth, Bob Hoskins and Shayne refuse to register Travellers as patients, and doctors are Ward—it is even claimed that former US President Bill reluctant to visit Traveller sites. Consequently, Travellers Clinton is descended from the Scottish Gypsy kings and sometimes have no alternative but to seek care through queens—but as we know, it is not just famous Travellers accident and emergency clinics. Moreover, living conditions who attract press coverage. Travellers are no longer a have a direct impact on health—more than 50% of forgotten minority: both the local and the national Travellers have spent at least part of their life without media regularly cover stories relating to Traveller issues. access to running water. Travellers have one of the Unfortunately, it usually results in the majority of people, highest maternal death rates in the UK, and a study in who may never have met a Traveller, holding firm and Scotland estimated that the average life expectancy of often negative opinions about them. Although we should Travellers could be as low as 55 years. be concerned that press coverage is often unbalanced, Attempts to meet the educational needs and concerns we should also accept that Travellers are as diverse as of Travellers are patchy. Some Traveller children are any other group and recognise that, as in any other unable to attend school because they are concerned ethnic group, a small minority of individuals do engage about their safety—in a recent survey, three quarters of in unlawful behaviour. In short, we should not be so young Travellers interviewed said they have been picked gullible as to accept that they are all just misunderstood on or bullied, and some parents have even been advised and hard-done-by angels. by teachers to tell their children not to let the other For decades, Travellers’ accommodation needs have pupils know that they are indeed Travellers. Interrupted featured low on the priority list, and they have largely learning as a result of travelling may also have an been the subject of heated debate. It would seem that in impact on Traveller children’s ability to access mainstream 7WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 8WH

[Mr Iain McKenzie] sites. Sadly, when identifying sites the council has actively pursued a “green belt first” policy, rather than the education, including further education. Few schools “brownfield first” policy that is explicit in the national keep formal contact with Traveller pupils or record planning policy framework. I shall be grateful if the information about their attainment. Minister clarifies or reiterates today what I believe to be Clearly the provision of sites, including official sites, the current position: that local authorities should pursue for Travellers requires the agreement and support of the a “brownfield first” policy when allocating Gypsy and communities who receive frequent visits from Travellers. Traveller sites, and that they should consider publicly owned land before privately owned sites. Andrew George: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Disappointingly, in York the council appears to have for giving way, and I congratulate him on giving a used the willingness of the landowner as the only criterion balanced picture of the challenges facing the Traveller for designating sites, much to the detriment of my community. He describes a set of circumstances affecting constituents and the affected communities. Countless the Traveller community and explains the nature of constituents have contacted me to express their deep their marginalisation, which was exemplified by the concern about the ability of landowners to use the statistics cited by the hon. Member for South West local planning process to coerce—some might even say Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), but does he agree that “blackmail”—communities into accepting inappropriate what underlies this situation is that there are simply not housing developments by threatening to put the land enough lawful and official permanent and transit sites forward for Gypsy and Traveller sites. As people can for travelling people? imagine, that does not help anyone involved in this process, from the Travellers themselves to the affected Mr McKenzie: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his communities. intervention. He is absolutely right to say that there are I will also touch on the question of unmet need for not enough official sites, and that is one of the causes of Traveller pitches. There seems to be some confusion the friction and tension between the travelling community among certain local authorities—I am sorry to say that and the established community. mine falls into that category—about whether unmet I will finish my remarks by highlighting that very need constitutes the “special circumstances” required to point. It cannot remain the position that people say, place new Traveller sites on the green belt, even when no “Yes, we recognise the need for sites, but not here.” other option is available. Will the Minister clarify that Travellers will continue to visit areas of the country situation for me? I would also be grateful to learn regardless of whether facilities are made available for whether he feels that the “five-year supply” rule on new them, which will result calls for Travellers to be moved pitches should apply to Gypsies and Travellers, who are on from unofficial stopping sites as soon as possible. nomadic in their living requirements and whose However, to remove them from unofficial sites, councils accommodation needs are likely to fluctuate greatly up and down the country will have to identify official during the 15-year life of a local plan, as has already sites and agree their use with the communities that they been mentioned. serve. Otherwise, they will forever pick up the cleaning-up costs. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Does my hon. Friend share my concern about how supply is determined? Salford university undertook a study, including 10.3 am in my own constituency, that basically asked the Gypsy Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): Thank you, and Traveller populations how many pitches they thought Mrs Riordan, for calling me to speak; it is a privilege to they would require during the next 15 to 20 years. serve under your chairmanship this morning. And I Unsurprisingly, the number was very substantial: the congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Gypsies and Travellers deemed that they needed a 60% West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing this increase in the supply of pitches in quite a short period. really important debate. In my short speech, I wish to raise an issue that is Julian Sturdy: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. In causing many of my constituents deep concern: the fact, he might have been reading my speech, because I siting of Gypsy and Traveller encampments by local will touch on that important issue when I talk about authorities. My local authority, York city council, is in how local authorities have assessed future needs. the early stages of developing its local plan, and in its As we all know, under the national planning policy first set of draft proposals, which were consulted on last framework local authorities have sole responsibility for summer, 63 Gypsy and Traveller pitches were suggested. assessing the accommodation needs of Gypsies and Of those 63 pitches, 41 have been proposed in what I Travellers in their area. I am not saying that it is an easy would class as inappropriate countryside locations in task—far from it; it is very difficult. However, I am small rural communities in my constituency. A further concerned that there are insufficient checks and balances 21 travelling show people pitches have been proposed, in place to ensure that these assessments are being again in rural locations on the edge of village settlements. carried out in an objective and proportionate manner. All the Gypsy, Traveller and show people pitches As I said, York city council has assessed that it allocated to proposed sites are on York’s established requires more than 80 pitches for Gypsies, Travellers green belt. The council has promised that the remaining and show people during the 15-year life cycle of its local 22 Gypsy and Traveller pitches are to be allocated to plan, but when my constituents and I reviewed the “suitable” sites as they emerge during the next 10 years, figures and the methodology used for identifying that but the council’s blatant disregard for the green belt specific need, we found some disturbing inaccuracies gives one little faith about what they class as “suitable” and errors, which suggests the council is proposing to 9WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 10WH provide for well above the “appropriate level of supply” authorities, such as city of York council, from the required. The council based much of its background irresponsible and complacent conduct that has, sadly, research on the 2008 North Yorkshire accommodation caused my constituents so much distress. assessment. The report identifies that York has a shortfall of 36 pitches, which the council astutely picked up on in its own assessment, but that 2008 document also states 10.13 am that the number of households moving off sites and Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve into bricks and mortar housing has vastly outstripped under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I congratulate the projected need from concealed Gypsy and Traveller my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire households. It concluded that the trend in York was of (Andrew Selous) onsecuring this important debate and declining need, with the total number of additional on his thoughtful speech. Having initiated a similar pitches required between 2008 and 2015 having gone debate in July 2011 on Gypsy and Traveller planning, I into negative figures, standing at minus-17—an important am pleased to be able to contribute to this one, because fact that was strangely absent from the council’s own this is a challenging area of constituency work for all assessment. Under huge protest, the council is now right hon. and hon. Members in this Chamber. revisiting its assessment process. The Minister will be aware that, like other parts of The 18 concealed households that city of York council Essex and England, some communities in my included in its assessment included Gypsies and Travellers constituency—I thank him for visiting it last week—have who are currently accommodated in bricks and mortar become blighted by the negative consequences of ill- housing but wish to be on local authority-run Travellers’ thought-out planning policies, as well as illegal and sites. Will the Minister clarify the definitions attached unauthorised developments. The way those cases have to Gypsies and Travellers? I strongly believe that, as my been handled through various planning processes has hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire alarmed many of my constituents, who take issue with so eloquently stated, those who reside in bricks and that and now feel that there are two planning systems mortar housing and have done so for some time should running in parallel—one for the settled community and not be taken into account by local authorities when one for travelling communities. assessing Traveller pitch requirements, regardless of whether Let me provide some context. Three local authorities they would like to be back on a pitch. and a county council cover my constituency, so, as one might imagine, there are complexities relating to local Andrew George: The hon. Gentleman makes an development frameworks. interesting point. That is clearly the nub of how local authorities have assessed needs. I do not know about his Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South local circumstances, but is he aware of any local authority Pembrokeshire) (Con): On that point, although certain or official site of pitches that is underutilised? How matters are devolved in Wales, does my hon. Friend does he explain the many examples of unlawful pitch agree that the consequence is that, rather than enhancing sites? Traveller people have no other alternative, because and integrating the Traveller community, resentment there are not sufficient lawful sites available. towards that community has developed, along with a complete lack of confidence in the local authority, Julian Sturdy: The hon. Gentleman makes a good leading to the opposite effect of what was desired? point. I can only speak from my experience of my local authority and constituency. There is underuse on privately Priti Patel: My hon. Friend is right. We are dealing run pitches in my local authority area and we see few, if with questions of public confidence. The planning system any, illegal encampments in the city of York. There are needs to address the many concerns that he and other illegal encampments in neighbouring local authority hon. Members have raised, but there are endless examples areas, but none specifically in the York council area. where the planning system has been perceived as deeply It would be sensible—this also applies to the point unhelpful, particularly in respect of travelling communities that I have just picked up on—of the Government to do and, of course, settled communities. more to encourage neighbouring local authorities to I have dealt with cases where human rights legislation work together to carry out accurate assessments of has been used in favour of the travelling community. Gypsy and Traveller needs, to ensure they are appropriately That legislation appears to provide a licence for planning accommodated and that the responsibility for doing so developments to be granted on a particular scale, even is apportioned fairly. York, for example, is behind many though similar applications from the settled community other neighbouring local authorities in the local plan- would be refused. This is about ensuring that everyone making process. That has served to highlight the disparity is dealt with fairly and even-handedly within the planning between the needs assessments, with the council committing system. Evidence seems to suggest that the planning itself to far more pitches than any of its neighbours. I process favours travelling communities over settled fear that that is because it is including the unmet need of communities, and I have examples of that happening. surrounding local authorities in its own assessment. I praise Conservative Ministers, particularly the Under- I have a lot of respect for the Minister and the work Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, he is doing on this issue, and I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon his comments on the points raised in the debate. On the Lewis), and his team, who deserve considerable credit whole, I feel that much greater clarity is required about for trying to resolve many historical problems associated both the appropriate siting of Traveller pitches and the with the planning system in relation to the travelling assessments of Gypsy and Traveller accommodation community. I praise them also for calling in some needs. That would provide much-needed transparency appeals and for some of the reforms that have been in a complex area of law and would prevent local made since we have been in government. Much more 11WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 12WH

[Priti Patel] I offer him an open invitation to pop by and see the site for himself when he is passing through on the A12, work is needed to ensure that we have a single planning which he knows well. I am sure he has a great deal of system that is fair and, importantly, has the confidence empathy for my constituents, who feel trapped by the of the public in all our communities. situation. I shall highlight ongoing problems in the village of This weekend my constituents launched a petition to Great Braxted in my constituency. It is a small rural the Secretary of State for Communities and Local community with an amazing, strong community spirit. Government to ensure that the settled community is All the neighbours know each other and new developments treated equally and fairly in the planning process. Within are not only unexpected, but are more often than not hours of the petition’s launch, there were more than unsuitable for the area. In a well known case, a road in 200 signatures. I have a copy of the petition here, and I the village, Lea lane, has in recent years become the would be delighted to hand it to the Minister. I hope he focal point of a number of planning applications, planning will take note of the concerns raised in the petition. appeals and enforcement actions. Business premises and industrial estates are also affected One family, who have lived in Lea lane for more than by Travellers who turn up totally uninvited. Witham 20 years, have been left terrified by the constant Industrial Watch has had some horrendous cases. bombardment of planning activities and development Thousands of pounds of damage was caused last summer taking place on the land surrounding their property. In alone, not just on one occasion but on three. Businesses recent years, they have faced more than 30 planning are the engines of our economic growth, creating jobs, applications from members of the travelling community prosperity and wealth. It is appalling to see the extent of and their associates. Every couple of months a new the devastation and damage that has been caused on application or appeal seems to be lodged. Some applications our industrial estates in Eastways and at two other have been successful, particularly on appeal, and pitches locations. Action was taken though section 61 notices. I have been approved but remain unoccupied, but when commend Witham police, with which I spent some time applications are refused, new applications of a similar two Fridays ago. We discussed the cases, and the police nature are submitted or unauthorised development were on the ball. I praise Witham Industrial Watch, too, continues. for working in partnership with Witham police, I think My hon. Friend the Minister is aware from my there will be some best practice and good learning that correspondence with him about this situation that there wse can all use when dealing with such cases. seems to be no mechanism built into the planning The Government have done the right thing by making system to protect my constituents from this bombardment squatting in people’s homes a criminal offence and I of planning misery. I urge the Government consider urge Ministers to consider introducing a similar criminal introducing new powers that can be exercised locally, to offence to protect businesses and landowners by deterring prevent persistent applications of a similar type from illegal occupancy of land. being made for a period of time. In one example, a planning inspector granted permission David Simpson: I agree with what the hon. Lady says on appeal by disregarding my constituents’ concerns about commercial sites and businesses. In my constituency and putting the rights of the travelling community we have had serious problems in which companies have above theirs. The inspector’s judgement stated: had to pay Travellers to move on because international “any harm to the living conditions of”— visitors were coming in and the place was a mess. It is a my constituents disgrace that that has to be done. “would clearly be outweighed by the benefits arising from the provision of a site for Gypsies and Travellers.” Priti Patel: I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman. The Minister knows that judgments such as that one That is a classic example of why the system needs to be shatter public confidence in the planning system and changed. The status quo is not an option; we need to do exacerbate the sense of unfairness in settled communities, something. I believe that we can have an effective planning particularly when their rights and views are effectively system that addresses the needs of both settled communities bypassed. Furthermore, my constituents have incurred and Traveller communities and addresses the tensions significant costs—we have heard about this already—as that we have discussed today, but we need to change the a third party in the planning appeals process, and they culture and the attitude within the planning system, have no way of recouping those costs, even when the which means taking robust action on some of the areas application is refused. Works undertaken at the site on that I and other hon. Members have raised. Lea lane have been very inconvenient, and my constituents have suffered disruption to their utilities—on top of the Mrs Linda Riordan (in the Chair): Before I call misery the planning process causes them, their utilities Mr Robert Syms, I remind Members that three hon. are being cut off. What is more, the area’ planning Members wish to speak. If they adjust their speeches, history naturally makes if very difficult for my constituents we might get them all in before I call the Front-Benchers to sell up and move on. to start winding up the debate at 10.40 am. The local planning authority is Maldon district council. Its draft site allocations plan, a copy of which I have 10.23 am here, deems that Lea lane should host 11 of the district’ Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I congratulate my 54 pitches and that priority should be given to intensifying hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire or expanding current sites to accommodate new (Andrew Selous) on introducing an important debate applications, irrespective of he plot’s unsuitability. I that touches so many of our constituencies. A general hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will encourage frustration has been expressed this morning that giving the local authority to reconsider its approach to Lea lane. special status to one category of people tends to trample 13WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 14WH on the rights of many of our ordinary, law-abiding, House, at which point the references to “Traveller” were tax-paying constituents who, frankly, get very angry registered as a hate incident by Sussex police, and six when they see their lives, their children’s lives and their months later I was served with a police information grandchildren’s lives being blighted. In the Bournemouth notice that has subsequently been the subject of a and Poole area, particularly in the summer months, we Committee of Privileges investigation. I put it on record face a number of groups that move down to find work. that I will not be sending a copy of Hansard to anyone, There is a good general argument for reviewing the law which is what sparked the complaint. and the status of such groups. I have no argument with Travellers, but I do have an I recently had a meeting with the Minister and other argument with illegal encampments, which cause such representatives from Dorset, and I will repeat what we devastation, angst, pain and cost to my constituents. discussed for the record. I thank him for meeting us. We They disrupt the leisure, education and business activities have a particular problem in that we have one Dorset of legitimate council tax-paying constituents who just constabulary that covers Dorset, Bournemouth and want to go about their business. In my constituency, Poole, but Bournemouth and Poole are unitary authorities. Adur and Worthing have been the destinations of choice Under the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994, for illegal encampments for many years. I take issue the police cannot move a Traveller group over a unitary with the fact that the residents of such illegal encampments authority boundary, which puts pressure on both seem incapable of vacating without completely trashing Bournemouth and Poole to find provision. Because we the site and leaving a heck of a mess for local people to have very tightly drawn boroughs, and because we have clear up. One of my parish councils, which has been the greenbelt and heath land, it is terribly difficult to identify subject of multiple illegal encampments, had to raise sites within the conurbation that are not next to settled council tax last year by 28% purely to pay the bill for communities. That causes a lot of difficulty and trouble, clearing up and reinforcing some of its public sites. and it would be much easier if the issue were managed over in Dorset, Bournemouth and Poole, with all three Mr McKenzie: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? combining to do their best to manage the problem in the summer. Tim Loughton: I will not give way because there is Poole has always tried to be as sensitive as possible, very little time. and the health authority has always tried to be as good The problem is that illegal encampments seem to as possible by knocking on the door and asking after have no consideration for the communities in which the health of the mothers and children of the Traveller they park themselves. As hon. Members have said, there community, but law-abiding people—local residents who is a perception among our constituents that there is one pay their council tax—get very frustrated that there law for Travellers and illegal encampments and another seems to be a special status. Sometimes, neither the law for law-abiding citizens, who would have to fund the police nor the local authority seems able to take action clearing up if they undertook such activity. My concern to address the problem effectively and efficiently. is that our police, and certainly Sussex police, seem to At the moment, Poole is trying to identify a temporary be engendered with a feeling of political correctness, site, and it has considered some 90 sites. Poole is thinking such that when one challenges the legitimacy of people of putting in for planning permission on a site at calling themselves Travellers, or the legitimacy of what Marshes End in Creekmoor, which is causing a lot of they are doing, one is put in the frame by the police. controversy and trouble. Marshes End may not even be That is just not fair, and it creates great resentment the best site because it is near a fast road, is next to a fire among constituents who have to pay to clean up the station and has few facilities. Leaving that aside, because mess. the planning process will sort out whether it is the most appropriate site, the real frustration is that it is expensive. The situation in my constituency has got better, and Poole is not a highly funded authority, and people, that is largely because of our new police commissioner, again, get frustrated that resources have to be put in to Katy Bourne, who has made illegal encampments one deal with what they consider to be a difficult problem. of her priorities. She has made the police take the problem much more seriously.Adur and Worthing councils Generally, I think there is a case for modest reform in have certainly improved their responses enormously a Bill in the next Session. We need to reform sections 61 and there has been a much better team effort in dealing and 62 of the 1994 Act, and the Government should with the problem. Rather than the police telling us what consider whether people ought to be treated fairly and they cannot do, the police and crime commissioner has equally, rather than having a privilege for one specific compelled them to issue rather more section 61 and group that tramples on the rights of others. section 62 notices, which have moved many of these illegal encampments swiftly on. Those notices work. In 10.26 am one case last summer, 50 caravans turned up on an open Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): public area where a church festival was being held. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Within an hour they had been moved on. They went to West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing this a football pitch, and within 24 hours they had been debate. moved on from there, because the police were prepared As a quick disclaimer, when I raised the subject of a to use section 61 and section 62 notices. constituent and endorsed the local authority, which In West Sussex, all the local authorities have come referred to him as “unkempt,” it later transpired that together to co-fund a transit camp for the whole county, that person claims to be of Traveller origin and a which will improve the problem. We welcome the six-month criminal investigation against me by Sussex Government money made available to help fund that police ensued. The investigation of course got nowhere. transit camp. I strongly agree with my hon. Friends the When the case was dropped, I raised the matter in the Members for South West Bedfordshire and for Poole 15WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 16WH

[Tim Loughton] Travellers and the planning system, which was produced by the then Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. Secondly, (Mr Syms) that we need to reform the Housing Act 2004. he has visited Kettering and Kettering borough council Everyone should be treated the same in housing assessment, not once, but twice. The last time was specifically to and we overestimate the real need. A recent census discuss the problems caused by Gypsies and Travellers. found that more than two thirds of Travellers have brick The third thing, which I was pleased to hear but only and mortar homes in other parts of the country. We heard today, was that on 17 January he published a must look at the vulnerability of these communities to consultation to tackle once and for all the issue of very poor education, qualification, health and employment Gypsies and Travellers self-declaring themselves as Gypsies outcomes, and a long-term policy that addresses that is and Travellers when many of us know they are nothing needed. Just treating them differently in the planning of the sort. system is not the solution. The fourth thing he could do, which would crown his We need to use smarter measures to deal with illegal career so far, would be to accept my private Member’s encampments. In my constituency, I am urging the Bill, the Planning Regulations (Removal of Provisions police to ensure they have a hotline for constituents who in Respect of Gypsies and Travellers) Bill. I wanted to see these encampments appearing, so that that can be call it the “Gypsies and Travellers (the Same Planning reported quickly and a fast response by the police and Rules as Everyone Else) Bill”, but I was told by the the local council to stop that encampment getting bigger parliamentary authorities that that was not allowed. can be expected and achieved. I can never understand Basically, the Bill would do what we have all been why, when an illegal encampment starts, the police asking for, which is to remove all special provisions for allow further caravans and vehicles to enter the site. Gypsies and Travellers in the planning system so that During the day, people will often leave the caravans in everyone is on exactly the same level playing field when their four-wheel drive cars to do business of various they make a planning application. Why should there be sorts, and I do not understand why they are allowed any special provisions for those calling themselves Gypsies back on to an illegal encampment in the evening. Why and Travellers, especially when we have learned today are we not using more disruption techniques and saying, that three quarters of those people live in houses like “If you are going to leave the site—as we hope you will everyone else? I am not convinced that there are as if it is an illegal encampment—you can only go with many Gypsies and Travellers as everyone says there are. your caravan, and you certainly cannot come back in again in the evening”? Those are the sort of disruption Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Recognising tactics we should be using for better enforcement. that everyone should be treated the same on housing The problem in my constituency is that the council need, I point out that when a small built housing site has spent an awful lot of money reinforcing entrances was provided for the travelling community in one and putting down bunding, only for a whole fence panel constituency in Northern Ireland, a well-noted family to be taken out to provide an entrance or for bollards to in the travelling community moved in and the rest of the be ripped out by the tow bar of a car. Recently, the houses were to be occupied by another family. However, bunding on one site, which had been put in specifically the first family would not allow the other family to to stop illegal encampments, was removed by a bulldozer. move in, so the authority provided another built housing Why do we not use CCTV more, once an illegal site at the other end of the town for the other family. encampment has been set up, to see what further offences Would that be accepted in any other housing list? might be committed? Why do we not better check the number plates of these vehicles to see where they are registered, and whether the Travellers have other Mr Hollobone: No, it would not, and the hon. Gentleman accommodation or are without any alternatives? is right to draw the House’s attention to that matter. This perversion of the planning system is reiterating All those things need to happen, but, recognising the itself through these absurd extra provisions that are problem and the particular vulnerabilities of the Traveller bolted on. People in my constituency are being brought community, we also need far better long-term planning, to tears worrying about the planning regulations on and we need the Traveller community to sign up to that. Gypsies and Travellers. It is not unfair to say that some We need clarification of the law, joined-up solutions parts of the rural and farming community are being and, above all, a level playing field that is hopefully used terrorised by the threat of theft, crime, rubbish and for playing and not illegal encampments. antisocial behaviour from local Gypsy and Traveller groups. 10.34 am In Kettering and other communities within my Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): It is a pleasure constituency, local people are understandably worried to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Riordan. I join about where Kettering borough council, of which I the chorus of praise for my hon. Friend the Member for have the privilege to be a member, will eventually decide South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), not only for to site up to 37 pitches by 2031. One area that is causing securing this important debate but also for the quality huge concern is the Scott road garages site right in the of his remarks and how he addressed this difficult middle of Kettering, where there could be a number issue. of pitches. A crucial council meeting is being held on We are fortunate to have a Minister at the Department 19 February, and local people will be paying close for Communities and Local Government who knows attention to its outcome. The issue is not Kettering what he is talking about. He has successfully done many borough council’s fault; it has to do what the Government things so far in his all too brief term of office, but three are telling it to do. Government regulations say that stand out. First, he has torn up 186 pages of equality the council has to provide sites for 37 pitches by 2031. and diversity Whitehall guff to do with Gypsies and Through my private Member’s Bill, I argue that that 17WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 18WH requirement should be abolished. There should not be opportunities for children to enter schooling. Some of pressure on local authorities to come up with a designated the issues that have been addressed today were starting number of sites, and abolishing that requirement would to be met. allay a lot of fears in my community. Despite the coalition Government’s removal of regional The village of Braybrooke has had particular challenges: spatial strategies, there is still an expectation that local 100% of the local school was occupied by Traveller authorities will make adequate provision for Gypsies children, and that school is now going to close. Braybrooke, and Travellers in their area. The March 2012 planning which has 325 residents on the electoral roll, is being policy framework states that local planning authorities threatened with a growing number of unauthorised and should make their own assessment of housing needs authorised encampments that might eventually surround and sites for Travellers, and many hon. Members today the village, including a greenfield site of 37 acres split made a powerful case for that need to be assessed into 60 plots, which Travellers are increasingly moving objectively. into. These important issues cause real concern to my Local planning authorities should work collaboratively constituents and, as we have heard today, to constituents to develop fair and effective strategies and should be around the country. I am only too pleased that we have encouraged to plan for sites over a reasonable time a Minister in place who recognises those concerns, and I scale, to protect the green belt, to encourage more am confident he will do something about them. private provision, to introduce measures to reduce unauthorised development and encampments, to have 10.39 am realistic and inclusive policies and to take action to reduce tension between settled and Gypsy and Traveller Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): communities. It is a pleasure, Mrs Riordan, to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for South The policy raises several questions that I hope the West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing this Minister will answer today. What will happen if the debate. It is clear that he and other hon. Members who local authority’s assessment of Gypsy and Traveller have spoken care passionately about this matter and need is unsatisfactory and results in too little or too have sought to bring forward issues affecting their much land or too few or too many sites? How will he constituencies. know that? What will happen if, as the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) mentioned, local authorities do not It has been suggested that primary legislation should work collaboratively to develop effective strategies to be altered, but whatever is done, the needs of the Gypsy meet needs, and what mechanisms will enable them to and Traveller community must be assessed and land do that? What sanctions will apply if they do not work must be allocated to meet their needs. The Minister may together and, again, how will he know that? be surprised to hear me say that much of the March 2012 planning policy framework would address many What is a reasonable time scale? How will it be of the issues that hon. Members have raised today if it obvious and what will be the mechanisms if private were implemented for Gypsies and Travellers. Traveller site provision is not adequate, or is proving I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Inverclyde problematic in the range of ways that hon. Members (Mr McKenzie) and the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew outlined? How will the Department for Communities George), who is no longer in his place, for their extremely and Local Government monitor the number of measured and thoughtful contributions, which sought unauthorised developments and encampments, and what to balance the practical problems facing Gypsies and action will be taken to address that? How many local Travellers with the difficulty of securing enough sites to authorities have developed realistic and inclusive policies, meet their needs. and how are they evaluated? I will briefly outline what the Labour Government How many additional Gypsy and Traveller sites have did. I will not go as far back in history as the hon. been provided since the March 2012 planning policy Member for South West Bedfordshire did, but it is framework? How is the Department supporting initiatives important to say where we are. As the Library briefing to reduce tension between the settled and the Gypsy note outlines, the Labour Government pressured councils and Traveller communities, which are important given to make adequate provision for Gypsies and Travellers, some of the comments this morning? Is the Department partly through the Housing Act 2004 and partly through monitoring the use of rural exception site policy and if regional spatial strategies and local plans. That required not, given that it is specifically mentioned in the guidance, local authorities, when reviewing housing needs in their what action will the Minister take? area, to examine specifically the accommodation needs Hon. Members will realise that I have little quarrel of Gypsies and Travellers residing in or resorting to with the policy in the 2012 planning policy framework their district. That was important because of the need and guidance. It is right that we should have a more to identify permanent and temporary sites. localist approach to determining need for the Gypsy Planning policy guidance circular 1/2006 put an and Traveller community and try to get local communities obligation on local authorities to identify land in what and councils to be reasonable in meeting that need. are now local plans for three reasons: to enable Gypsies, However, I would like to know how the Government’s Travellers and Irish Travellers to buy land and to develop policy is working in practice, and how they can be sites; to enable registered council landlords to apply to assured that that need is being met. the Housing Corporation for funds to develop sites; Research published in The Independent in March and for the Secretary of State to intervene, when necessary, 2012 stated: to ensure that land is identified. The consensus seemed “The Government is underestimating the demand for new to be that that was making councils and communities Gypsy and Traveller sites, exacerbating the already dire shortage find suitable land and that there were increasing and making ‘a future Dale Farm inevitable’”. 19WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 20WH

[Roberta Blackman-Woods] 1.5% and will know from his research that the 3% figure originates in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister’s In January 2013, the Homes and Communities Agency 2003 report “Local Authority Gypsy/Traveller Sites in announced grants of £47 million for 170 improved England”, which was probably written with the same pitches and 620 new ones in schemes throughout the pens that we still have many thousands of, paid for with country, but it seems that fewer than 300 new pitches taxpayers’ money back then. The figure was restated in are likely to be built before 2015, and that by then the Department for Communities and Local Government’s funding may not be available. Many identified sites 2007 report “Preparing Regional Spatial Strategy reviews simply do not get planning permission. on Gypsies and Travellers by regional planning bodies”. We seem to be concentrating on sites that are My hon. Friend makes a fair point, so, bearing in mind inappropriately located, sometimes in the green belt that we have moved away from regional spatial strategies, and sometimes where problems arise for local communities, I will go away and examine whether we can reassess the but the Minister and his colleagues must tell us where guidance. sites will be and how to facilitate local authorities and We want fair play in the planning system. We are communities to meet existing needs in their area and to committed to encouraging sustainable development, and do so within an inclusive framework. No one is saying it is important that local authorities plan for the needs that that is easy. The issues are difficult, as the hon. of all in their communities, including Travellers. We Member for South West Bedfordshire outlined. However, should not, however, tolerate any abuse of the planning the complexity of the issues must be reflected not only system. We have introduced a broad package of measures in national guidance but in local strategies and actions. to ensure a fair deal for both Travellers and the settled Monitoring is necessary so that we know what is and is community. Members have raised the different things not working and so that best practice can be shared. I that have happened in various areas and more work do not see the Minister or his Department doing any of needs to be done to encourage councils and the police that at the moment. to use the powers that they already have. Good examples There is a striking mismatch between need and where exist of where the police are now using the considerable the money has gone, with few applications from London, powers that we have given them. the east, the south-east and the north-west. Essex, Kent We have replaced the top-down planning policy with Cambridgeshire, Surrey and Hertfordshire had the most a new planning policy for Traveller sites, putting the Gypsies and Travellers but were awarded only 4% of provision of sites back into local authorities’ hands, in funding between them. The information we have suggests consultation with their communities. We abolished the that the Minister should take action, and I would be undemocratic regional strategies and the top-down housing grateful for answers to the specific points I have raised and Traveller pitch targets that they contained. We have this morning. limited opportunities for retrospective planning applications in relation to any form of development through the Localism Act 2011. We have provided stronger enforcement 10.49 am powers for local authorities to tackle breaches of planning The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for control. Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): It In addition, we have reminded council leaders of the is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, strong powers already available to them to deal swiftly Mrs Riordan. I join others in congratulating my hon. with illegal and unauthorised encampments. We are Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew encouraging authorised site provision, as my hon. Friend Selous) on securing this important debate about the the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim general Gypsy and Traveller policy. It has been a high- Loughton) mentioned in relation to Adur, with £60 million- quality, reasoned debate with many excellent contributions worth of Traveller pitch funding on top of the new and suggestions. homes bonus, which applies to Traveller sites as it does I want to make it absolutely clear that, as hon. to conventional housing. We have given residents of Members have said, Gypsies and Travellers are as much authorised local authority sites improved protection members of our communities as anyone else and deserve against eviction by applying the Mobile Homes Act 2013 the same protection and the same rights. The key word to those sites. We have also set up a cross-Government, is “same”. It has been suggested that there may be one ministerial-level working group to address the inequalities law for settled communities and a separate law for experienced by Gypsies and Travellers, particularly in Travellers, but we need to ensure that everybody is health and education. treated equally. I gently suggest to the hon. Member for City of Andrew Selous: Does the Minister have any sympathy Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) that it is difficult with my point about it not being helpful to have a large for this Government to take lessons from the previous concentration of people among whom joblessness is Labour Government, who left us with the farce of Dale high, skills training is low and rates of absence are high? farm, which was mainly down to top-down, regional That could become the norm for that group, and if we strategy approaches; she tempts me to return to those really want to do the best for this community, I ask him by taking a centralist approach to assessing what people to consider the matter. are doing. We will certainly not do that. That leads me directly to the comment of my hon. Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend makes a good point Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire about about ensuring that communities are mixed and balanced, the 3% growth rate in Gypsy and Traveller household and I encourage local authorities to be aware of that in net formation. He believes the figure to be closer to their planning work. 21WH Gypsy and Traveller Policy4 FEBRUARY 2014 Gypsy and Traveller Policy 22WH

We also revoked the legislation that limited the use of Brandon Lewis: My hon. Friend highlights why it is temporary stop notices against caravans used as a person’s important that we are calling cases in to make the main residence, which might well have stopped the farce Government’s position clear and to test the policy, but I at Dale farm that developed under the previous will consider that specific issue. Government. We removed unnecessary national regulation My hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) and now allow local authorities to make their own will understand that I cannot comment on particular decisions about temporary stop notices. cases due to the quasi-judicial planning issues, but her Our policy aims to increase the number of Traveller point about persistent applications was well made. I sites in appropriate locations. It seeks to address under- enjoyed my visit to her constituency last week, and I am provision and to maintain an appropriate level of supply, sure that the residents of Little Braxted will be looking which may help to reduce unauthorised sites. Our planning forward to its afternoon outing on ITV’s “Britain’s Best policy aligns more generally with that for standard Bakery” this week. housing. It expects local authorities to plan to meet My hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms) their Traveller needs based on robust evidence developed made reference to a meeting that we had and an idea locally and to identify and update their supply of specific that was put forward. We will be examining how we can sites. take further that proposal, which may help to alleviate Our policy strengthens protection of the green belt the problems that arise when things move back and and the open countryside by making clear that Traveller forth in a small area. sites are inappropriate for green-belt development and My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering that local authorities should strictly limit the development (Mr Hollobone) always tempts me into new ways of of new Traveller sites in the open countryside. My hon. dealing with issues, but I will deal with his suggestions Friend the Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy) when we come to consider his private Member’s Bill. made a point about the balance between unmet need We want to ensure fairness in the system, and I stress and the green belt. I am concerned that decision makers that we announced our intention to consult later this do not always afford the green belt and other areas year on whether the planning definition of Travellers special to us the level of protection that our policies should refer only to those who actually travel and have seek to deliver, and I see that concern in the correspondence a mobile or transitory lifestyle. If someone has ceased that I receive and in this morning’s comments. That is to travel, it is right to ask whether they should be why I announced to the House in July last year that the treated as a Traveller for planning purposes, and we will Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government be seeking answers to that question. In the meantime, considers that the single issue of unmet demand—whether however, I am keen to hear the views of hon. Friends, for traveller sites or for conventional housing—is unlikely Opposition Members and others. to outweigh harm to the green belt and elsewhere and to constitute the exceptional circumstances that justify I am keen to hear views on how planning policy for inappropriate development in the green belt. Travellers could be further refined to ensure that the green belt and other areas that we value are given I also announced that the Secretary of State would proper protection. This debate has provided a welcome recover for decision himself a number of appeals against opportunity to pursue that discussion, but I hope that it the refusal of planning permission in order to test the will develop in due course. We have undertaken a range relevant policies at national level. Earlier this month, I of things to ensure that councils have the powers that announced that those recoveries would continue and they need to deal with illegal encampments swiftly. We re-emphasised our policy position on unmet need and published some guidance last summer, and I am happy the green belt. I hope that that provides some comfort to provide copies of it to interested Members. to hon. Members. In conclusion, I stress that our planning reforms seek to achieve three things: an adequate supply of authorised Andrew Selous: May I ask the Minister and his officials sites to meet Traveller needs; a level playing field for all; to re-examine paragraph 15 on page 5 of the “Planning and the protection of our natural heritage and open policy for traveller sites” document? Although I welcome spaces. We are determined to ensure that everyone has what he and the Secretary of State have said, I am the ability and aspiration to prosper and that we break concerned that the wording of paragraph 15 runs against down the barriers to social mobility through a planning what the Minister has just stated. system that is fair and equal to all. 23WH 4 FEBRUARY 2014 Free Schools and Academies 24WH

Free Schools and Academies Catholic education it is satisfied; they feel that it would be a breach of canon law to support a school that turned away Catholic children. Secondly, there is a 10.59 am broader point about ethos. There is something different about a Catholic school and its values. There are aspects Mr Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): It is a pleasure to of school life that are bound up in the sacramental life serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mrs Riordan. of the school—participation in mass, a set of shared My interest in school choice is a long-standing one. values, and reference points that relate to the Church On my bookshelf at home are pamphlets and books and its teaching. It is hard to see how those shared dating back to the ’80s and ’90s about the links between values and ethos can be maintained if half the pupils diversity, choice and standards. I helped to draft our cannot relate to the practice of the Catholic faith. education policy for the 2005 election, which had as one That is not to say that the schools in question should of its key tenets parents’ right to choose a school for be exclusively Catholic. Indeed, three in 10 children in their child. However, my interest is not purely political; Catholic schools are non-Catholics. However, a point it is personal, too—predating my interest in politics. My comes where the dilution of a school’s Catholicity means parents did not choose the nearest school to our home it loses its ethos, and it loses parental support. I will give for me or my sisters. They chose state Catholic primary two examples of that. In Oxford, St Augustine’s was a and secondary schools for us, which required a bus or joint Catholic and Church of England school, but car journey to get there. My nieces and nephew go to parents did not perceive it as Catholic from its admissions the same schools in Durham today. arrangements and therefore saw no discernible difference I am proud of the Government’s work to expand the between it and other state schools in the area; they diversity of schools through the academy and free school viewed them all as non-Catholic. Parents voted with programme, thereby creating choice for parents, but their feet, and chose not to send their children to two things have been clear to me throughout. Choice is St. Augustine’s. The archdiocese closed the school owing a reality only when there is diversity and capacity. It is to the lack of demand from local Catholics, and then real only when there are different types of school for founded a Catholic school called St Gregory the Great, parents to choose between; and there must be enough with Catholic admissions arrangements, which remains capacity in the system to enable parents to get their successful and oversubscribed. child into the school of their choice. In Bromley, there is a gap in provision owing to the I want to highlight two barriers to choice: one that closure of an existing Catholic school, which Catholic limits diversity and one that limits capacity.I am committed, parents did not recognise. St John Rigby was a small as a matter of my political beliefs, to school choice, and Catholic secondary school serving the local Catholic I find it hard when a policy of the Government whom I community. It became a grant-maintained school and, support effectively prevents the next generation of Catholics without the consent of the archdiocese, doubled in size, from attending a Catholic school, in areas where there is despite the fact that there was no additional demand for neither a Catholic school nor adequate capacity. Our Catholic places. That meant that the percentage of current policy encourages all new schools to be either Catholics in the school decreased massively and Catholic academies or free schools, and that route should add to parents stopped sending their children there. Without 243 existing Catholic academy schools. Unfortunately, support from the Catholic community the school entered there is a cap on faith-based admissions that inhibits the special measures and was later closed by the local willingness of Catholics to sponsor a new academy or authority. free school, and therefore limits the diversity of academies The faith-based admissions cap is a disincentive to and free schools. the Catholic Church to set up faith schools, because it The current policy requires, in the interest of inclusion, dilutes their ethos. I am sure the Minister will say that that oversubscribed denominational schools be able to other faiths are less concerned about that. However, if a reserve only 50% of their places for children of the faith group establishes a school that is not oversubscribed relevant faith. That flows from the coalition agreement: by parents of the relevant faith or, indeed, other faiths, “We will ensure that all new Academies follow an inclusive then the cap does not apply. Some people might be admissions policy. We will work with faith groups to enable more content with the working of the dilutive effect that I faith schools and facilitate inclusive admissions policies in as have described, but the experience of the Catholic Church many of these schools as possible.” has not been positive. The Minister might point out that That is a one-dimensional view of inclusivity; 34.5% of the voluntary-aided route is still available, and he could children in Catholic primaries are from an ethnic minority give the example of the new Catholic school in Richmond, background, compared with 28.5 % nationally, and but councils are required to meet unmet demand through 17.3% of children in Catholic secondary schools live in academies and free schools first, and funding is biased deprived areas, compared with 12.2% nationally. Of towards them. We would have a richer and more diverse course, Catholic schools are also popular with non- set of free schools and academies if the cap were Catholics. removed. It would give more parents the chance to give Why does the cap matter? A Catholic free school or their children the education in values that they support. academy is likely to open only in an area with a large As I said at the outset, to make choice real, we need Catholic community, where there is no—or limited— some capacity in the system to accommodate parental provision; given the popularity of Catholic schools with demand; otherwise, we will need to turn children away. Catholics and non-Catholics alike, many will be forced, So, schools need to be able to expand. However, limited in practice, to turn away Catholic pupils to meet the capital resources mean that only 142 of the 518 academies 50% cap. The Church is concerned because, first, Bishops that applied for money from the Education Funding are required to ensure that where there is a demand for Agency to expand in the period June 2012 to October 25WH Free Schools and Academies4 FEBRUARY 2014 Free Schools and Academies 26WH

2013 were accepted. In other words, almost 400 schools I believe, as a Conservative, that we should support turned away children and their parents because of lack parents who have a clear vision of their children’s of capacity. I know we cannot write a blank cheque to education. Parents who want to send their child to a fund the expansion of schools, but there must be something particular school should not be held back when it is we can do to stop seven out of every 10 applications possible for their wishes to be accommodated. Popular being turned down. I believe that the solution is to schools should be allowed to expand, even if they have allow our best schools to build on their success and to borrow money to do so. Parents who want to send borrow to satisfy demand. their child to a faith school should be permitted to do so, but our policy on faith-based admissions is a block Schools used to be able to borrow. Cams Hill school on Catholics opening new schools to give parents that in my constituency is a popular academy. It increased choice. Two simple changes could deepen the revolution its intake last September from 210 to 240 and will take in choice and standards that this Government have another 240 pupils this September, turning down championed. applications from a further 30 pupils. However, in 2015, because of space constraints, it will have to revert to an 11.10 am intake of 210 pupils. Demand from parents will not diminish, but the school’s ability to meet that demand The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education will. It has paid off its mortgage and in the past has (Elizabeth Truss): I congratulate my hon. Friend the borrowed money, to fund a new sports hall. It would Member for Fareham (Mr Hoban) on securing the like to do so again, so that it can permanently increase debate. I completely agree with him about the need for its intake to 240, but that route is now closed. The diversity and choice in our school system and how they school cannot borrow. lead to a raising of standards. Certainly, that was the outcome of a programme for international student However, things are actually not as clear-cut as that. assessment study, which shows that schools with a high In a written answer on 25 October 2013, the Under- degree of autonomy and accountability generally succeed Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the in raising standards throughout the system. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), said at columns 300W to 301W that, in the 12 months to As a Government, we recognise the important 22 October 2013, 44 schools were given permission contribution made by Church and faith schools to the to borrow. Of those instances, 39 were for energy efficiency education system. Around a third of schools are Church projects; none were to make it possible to expand. or faith schools, and an increasing number are converting Schools can borrow, therefore—but not for expansion. to academy status to take advantage of the freedoms Sixth-form colleges and further education colleges can offered by the academies programme. Church and faith and do borrow. The principal of one sixth-form college schools are popular with parents—many are said to me that it was a vital freedom and that it enabled oversubscribed—and they are some of the highest- him to modernise and expand his provision to meet performing schools in the country. local needs. The free schools programme represents a new approach to how schools are established and it is offering new Why, then, cannot academies and free schools borrow? opportunities, to groups of all faiths and none, to set up According to parliamentary answers and correspondence new schools in the community; 37 of the 182 open free I have had it is because the borrowing of academies and schools are faith schools. Faith free schools and new- free schools would count towards Government debt provision academies must be open and welcoming to and the deficit. The Secretary of State would therefore the communities around them. Unlike voluntary aided have to approve borrowing to fund expansion and, schools or converted faith academies, they may only because he does not want to add to the debt, he will not prioritise a maximum of 50% of places by reference to do so. So how is it that sixth-form and FE colleges faith when the school is oversubscribed. Of course, if borrow? The explanation is that the Education Act the school is not oversubscribed, more children of that 2011 scrapped the Secretary of State’s controls over faith may be admitted. their borrowing, and consequently the Office for National Catholic schools in particular have a long and proud Statistics decided to take FE and sixth-form college history of championing high standards and extending debt off the Government balance sheet. There is a opportunities. They consistently outperform other kinds simple solution. If the Secretary of State scrapped his of state schools. As my hon. Friend the Member for control over borrowing by academies and free schools, Fareham is aware, the Education Act 1944 brought their borrowings would not count towards Government many Church schools into the state education system, debt. Academies and free schools are already entrusted including from the Catholic sector, and we continue to to make decisions about the terms and conditions of benefit from that settlement today.The education landscape, staff, curriculum delivery, term times and length of however, has changed since 1944. Academies and free school day. The measure I suggest would give them schools represent a new approach to creating new schools, another freedom: the freedom to borrow and to expand. including faith schools, and new faith free schools and As the record of Cams Hill shows, schools can borrow new faith academies, when oversubscribed, may admit and pay back without a problem. The record of sixth-form only up to 50% of their pupils according to faith. and FE colleges shows that they can manage their If the Government fund new faith-school provision, finances well. They do not fail due to financial pressures. it is right that a proportion of the places be available to They are subject to proper financial controls and scrutiny, the whole community, including those of other faiths as are academies and free schools. If we can trust our and none. That does not mean that other places must academies and free schools with our children’s future, be allocated to pupils who are not of the faith; as I why can we not trust them to borrow, so that choice mentioned earlier, they must rather be allocated according becomes a reality for more parents? to other oversubscription criteria. 27WH Free Schools and Academies4 FEBRUARY 2014 Free Schools and Academies 28WH

[Elizabeth Truss] moved away from the Government balance sheet and did not count towards Government debt and the deficit. I acknowledge, as my hon. Friend pointed out, that The Department can make a simple change to remove the Catholic sector has objections to our policy on the debt from the Government balance sheet and put it admissions to faith free schools. I know that the Catholic into the private sector. Education Service has been in discussion with Department officials. We remain committed to continuing our Elizabeth Truss: The issue is the way in which the engagement with the CES, although I point out that we Office for National Statistics carries out the classification, have no intention of changing or removing the 50% rather than the Department for Education. limit. Mr Hoban: I am sorry to be persistent, but having Mr Hoban: Why has a quota been set for admissions looked at the note from the ONS on the reclassification based on faith, but not for other characteristics such as of FE colleges, it appears that one of the things that social class, gender or ethnicity? Why has faith been changed its view on whether the colleges’ debt should sit singled out? on the public sector balance sheet or a non-government sector balance sheet was control. When control in the Elizabeth Truss: The quota was set so that we are able FE sector was scrapped under the Education Act 2011, to ensure that a broad range of the community may the ONS changed the classification and took that debt attend those community-based schools. off the Government’s balance sheet. On the point made by my hon. Friend about voluntary aided schools, I should say that local councils have an Elizabeth Truss: My hon. Friend makes a good point, option, where there is oversubscription or high demand but that would require a change in our policy on academies for faith schools, to set up new voluntary aided schools. and free schools, not specifically on borrowing, but The academy route does not have to be looked at first; if more generally on autonomy. As I discussed earlier and there is demand for faith-based education in a local as the PISA study demonstrates, there is always a balance area, a diocese, for example, may propose a new school to be struck between autonomy and accountability in outside the academy route. High demand for faith the school system. The ONS says that the balance places therefore provides a diocese with the opportunity between autonomy and accountability dictates that to propose a non-academy route. On funding, we ensure academies are classified as public sector bodies, so any that funding to all schools is fair within each local area. change would require amendment to the Department Funding is not biased towards academies or free schools, for Education’s legislation on the structure of academies. as my hon. Friend suggested. The Government are committed to the careful control The point of the new academies and free schools is of public spending to bring down the national deficit that they should have a broad base in the community, and retain economic confidence. Under the status quo, hence the limit of 50% on children from a particular in the 12 months to October 2013 five formal requests faith when there is oversubscription. When there is were received from academies, all of which were approved. strong demand for a faith school in a local area, however, Formal requests tend to follow an informal discussion the diocese can propose a new school not through the with academies, which is the point at which most proposals academy route; there is that option for such schools. are terminated. The second point made by my hon. Friend was about We want good schools to have the flexibility to expand, borrowing by academies and free schools. He made a and have taken big strides to allow academies greater good case and I acknowledge his point about further financial freedoms—for example, the ability to carry education, for example, and other types of public institution forward surpluses—but we understand that academies being able to borrow, but academies are restricted from would like to have more, particularly on borrowing. As borrowing without the express prior permission of the my hon. Friend pointed out, the Office for National Secretary of State. The restriction is set out in the Statistics determines the classification of all bodies, and funding agreements and in the academies financial all academies are currently classified as central Government handbook. public sector bodies. The ONS makes decisions independent The Department’s general position is that commercial of Government, subject to international accounting borrowing is rarely considered to be good value for standards. money, as the interest and finance charges are normally My hon. Friend made the case that we should change higher than rates available to the Government. I the regulations for academies to give them more financial acknowledge, however, my hon. Friend’s point about freedom. That debate is about the level of freedom and the autonomy of schools and about the degree of freedom autonomy that academies are given and is separate given to make such decisions. The result of that presumption from the question whether academies should be able to by the Department is that permission to borrow is given borrow. only exceptionally, in part because academies are classified This has been an extremely helpful debate. There are by the Office for National Statistics as public sector routes by which new faith schools can be set up with bodies. That is different from the classification of further 100% admission from faith-based communities. However, education colleges. Any borrowing undertaken by academies new academies and free schools have a cap of 50% in therefore is also counted in measures used to calculate cases where there is over-subscription, and we do not public sector debt. have any plans to change that at the moment. I am interested in my hon. Friend’s points about borrowing, Mr Hoban: FE colleges’ debt used to be on the and I will ask officials to look at the details of that, to Government balance sheet; once the Secretary of State see what would be required for the ONS to change the scrapped his controls over their borrowing, their debt classification. 29WH Free Schools and Academies 4 FEBRUARY 2014 30WH

Mr Hoban: I asked the Minister earlier why the Regional Arts and Culture Government had not set quotas on ethnicity, gender and social class but had chosen to single out faith. Will she clarify why that is the case? 2.30 pm Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): It is a pleasure Elizabeth Truss: Obviously, we do not have schools to open this debate, Mr Caton, particularly with you in based on social class. The question of gender is interesting. the Chair. I am pleased to have secured it, not simply to The cap is a specific measure to make sure that, as highlight the disparity between arts funding for London widely as possible, members of all the community are and the regions, but to make the case for arts funding in represented in new schools. There are routes by which general. I will argue not for regional versus national faith-based schools can expand and new faith-based institutions, but that the whole country is strengthened schools can be established, but the 100% route is not by a more equitable distribution of funding. part of the academies and free schools programme. We cannot consider the matter in isolation from wider economic trends. Last week, we saw reports that 11.22 am between 2010 and 2012, 217,000 new private sector jobs Sitting suspended. were created in London, whereas my city of Sheffield lost 7,500. We are clearly not alone: private sector jobs have been draining away from the north to London and the south-east. There is a direct relationship because arts funding is important not just for our social life throughout the country, but for our economic growth. The arts provide nearly 1 million jobs in the UK economy every year, and 67,000 cultural businesses contribute £28 billion a year. In addition to that direct contribution, the impact of a vibrant cultural offer has a decisive impact on those who are choosing where to invest, where to start businesses and where to study. It is hugely important. The report, “Rebalancing Our Cultural Capital”, which was published just before Christmas, sadly contained figures showing what many of us already knew, but in much starker terms: that arts funding from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Arts Council is massively tilted towards London, which received £68.99 a head compared with just £4.58 in the rest of England in 2012-13. The issue is not just about the Arts Council and the DCMS, though. Those funding imbalances form part of a bigger picture of disproportionate cuts to local authorities in the most deprived areas, and disproportionate private investment between London and the regions. I am sure that those of us here today do not need reminding of the contribution made by the arts, but it is worth stressing that the arts shape places and communities, regenerate and energise, and invest in and develop future talent, so it is a problem if the benefits of the arts are not shared equally. “Rebalancing Our Cultural Capital” highlighted that, but the tension between funding in London and in the rest of England is not new. It was one reason behind the appointment of Jennie Lee, the country’s first arts Minister almost 50 years ago, and it was certainly behind her pioneering White Paper, “A Policy for the Arts”. A great deal has been achieved. In Sheffield, we have some fantastic arts and cultural facilities. Last week, Sheffield Theatres was recognised as regional theatre of the year for the second year running. It welcomed audiences of almost 440,000 through its doors last year; produced 14 shows on three stages, including five world premieres; presented 72 productions by visiting companies; and transferred a new play to New York, as well as touring a large-scale play across the UK—but that success will be challenged if there are continual reductions in public funding. Public funding accounts for only 17% of the theatres’ turnover, but there is a tipping point. Further cuts would force price increases that would 31WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 32WH

[Paul Blomfield] festival. Does he agree that there is a difference between regional urban centres such as Sheffield, which have a push our theatres beyond the reach of many local distinct set of issues relating to the arts, and rural areas people for whom travelling to London theatres is already such as mine, where there is a need for an infrastructure unthinkable. The problem is the same for our museums. to be maintained which would not exist without public support? I am thinking of Flicks in the Sticks in Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Does my Herefordshire and the Monnow Valley arts centre—places hon. Friend agree that regional theatres are important that are very rural and do not have the advantages of an as incubators for young talent? In the north-east, in urban context. Newcastle, Live Theatre has been a great incubator not just of acting talent, but writing talent. Paul Blomfield: I would certainly not want to counterpoise the arts in rural communities against those Paul Blomfield: My hon. Friend makes an important in urban communities. We face different and distinctive point. I am well aware of the importance of the cultural issues. One that we face is the challenge for local authority offering in Newcastle, and I will return to the point funding, because we are facing a disproportionate hit about incubating young talent. from the reduction of local authority funding. Sheffield can report great success for our museums. Museums Sheffield, which is one of our two successful Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): I museum trusts, welcomed 1 million visitors across three congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. sites last year, 96% of whom rated the museums good or Does he agree that one problem for regional arts is that excellent—but Museums Sheffield has lost 40% of its we are being hit hard not just by a combination of local staff since 2012. It becomes more and more of a challenge authority cuts, Arts Council cuts and so on, but by the to maintain standards against that background, with a sequencing of funding? The Arts Council operates on declining core grant year on year resulting from central one set of criteria and time horizons, local authorities Government cuts to local authorities. face another set, as does lottery funding, and the combination means we are hit by a multiple whammy. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I The sequencing needs to be sorted out as well as the congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. quantum of available money. This morning, I had a meeting at the National Portrait Gallery to discuss, among other things, its work with Paul Blomfield: My hon. Friend makes an important Tyne and Wear museums which led to the excellent, point, and I will talk about private funding. The way in Trailblazers exhibition at the Discovery museum last which different strands of public and private funding year and the current Laura Knight exhibition at the pose challenges for the arts is important, because it is Laing. Does he agree that, although it is great to see often argued that we should look more actively for such working together between London and regional more private sponsorship of the arts. That is fine, but institutions, we need strong, regional institutions with there too, the picture is weighted against the regions. continued funding to foster regional talent and create Private sponsorship is exacerbating the problem, not exhibitions that can perhaps travel to London? solving it. In Sheffield, there are many deeply generous people, but we do not have major corporate sponsors. Paul Blomfield: I agree with my hon. Friend, and I There is no private giving on any significant scale, not will return to the point she makes in the context of my least because the London cultural organisations are experience of some of our institutions in Sheffield. hoovering it all up. In 2011-12, for example, 90% of all There is also under-investment in the visual arts private giving to the arts by individual philanthropists sector in Sheffield. I am told that Sheffield has the was to London-based organisations. We need the largest number of practising artists per capita outside Government and the Arts Council to redress the imbalance. London, but we have limited provision for the exhibition In its briefing for today’s debate, the Mayor of London’s of contemporary and visual art and do not have the office claimed that London needs the funds to compete resources to take advantage or to make the most of the with Paris, New York and Berlin, but Sheffield, too, is opportunities they provide. We need to invest to reap competing with European cities and beyond, and with the rewards. Our core cities provide a platform for decent investment, we can win. One of my constituents artists on the way up: three of the four Turner prize wrote to me with today’s debate in mind, saying: nominees for 2013 had exhibited at Sheffield’s Site “When friends and family visit they are always impressed by gallery in the past six years. the quality of the performances in Sheffield. Often friends have The Arts Council is at pains to point out that 70% of never thought of Sheffield as a potential city break”— lottery funding is spent outside London, but that does quite wrongly— not take us back even to the 2009-10 level of spend outside London, which was at 76%, and lottery funding “but after they visit they always want to come back.”— is one-off funding. The lottery has supported some quite rightly. It is not just London that needs tourism, excellent capital developments, not least the stunning and the point is that taxpayers from across the country Persistence Works in Sheffield, but Arts Council funding are contributing to that London subsidy. To attract has not matched that ambition with programme funding, people to destinations outside London, we need action which would enable us to animate these spaces to fulfil to rebalance our cultural capital. I recognise that the their potential. Arts Council is concerned with the issue, but what sort of message does it send out when the council’s 10-year Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) strategy published in 2010 became the first public policy (Con): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for this statement on the arts since 1965 to fail to acknowledge debate. I declare an interest as a director of the Hay the scale of the imbalance in the distribution of resources? 33WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 34WH

The figures I mentioned at the start of the debate Paul Blomfield: I am grateful for that intervention account for DCMS and Arts Council funding combined. from my hon. Friend, who is a fellow Sheffield and Of DCMS direct funding to our national institutions, South Yorkshire MP. The culture of brass bands is 90% goes to London. We can all accept the value of tremendously important in our area. She describes the properly funding our national institutions—although difficulty whereby relatively small amounts of funding they do not always have to be in London—but more can are now beyond the reach of local authorities, which is be done to ensure that national institutions, as my hon. pushing small cultural groups over the edge. That is a Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central critical problem. (Chi Onwurah) said, irrigate rather than drain the arts We are facing a real crisis in many of our big cities elsewhere in the country. and in many other parts of England. I conclude with There are some great partnerships: Museums Sheffield three questions for the Minister. What is he doing to has great links with the British Museum and the V&A, convince others in Government of the threat posed to and there is really positive work between the British the arts by cuts in local government funding? What is Library and our central library. I was at our Weston the Government’s response to evidence of the cumulative Park museum for the launch of the “China: Journey to impact of cuts hitting more deprived areas hardest, the the East” exhibition, which brought some of the best lack of private investment in those areas, and the failure British Museum exhibits together with our own collection, of public arts funding to redress that imbalance? Finally, inspirationally presented by our local team, but that what are the Government doing to rebalance the funding was two years ago and it could not happen now in the gap and ensure more equitable support for arts and same way, because many of the jobs have been lost. culture across the whole country? Several hon. Members rose— Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend also think that, although there are some good examples of Martin Caton (in the Chair): As Members can see, a collaborative working, there is a London snobbishness great number of people want to contribute to the debate. about the regions, in that there is a wish to retain certain I will not set a time limit at this stage, but I appeal for artefacts in London? For example, the Lindisfarne gospels Members to show a bit of self-discipline. We will only came to the north-east, to Durham, last year, which was get everybody in if we keep contributions from Back-Bench a tremendous success. However, even though Durham Members down to five minutes and I want to call the university and Durham cathedral could adequately house Front-Bench Members at 20 to four. them and have a permanent exhibition, there was the idea that it was somehow important that the gospels 2.46 pm stay in London. Does he not think that moving some of our national treasures around the regions on permanent Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): It is a exhibition would be a way forward? great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I start by congratulating the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) on securing the debate. It is Paul Blomfield: My hon. Friend makes an important always a pleasure to join colleagues from across the point. My suggestion, echoing that of “Rebalancing House in celebrating the huge contribution the arts Our Cultural Capital”, that national institutions ought make not only to our sense of well-being and pleasure, to do more to irrigate the system could be fulfilled but to the economy, in the way that the hon. Gentleman through that sort of initiative. laid out so well. Everyone in this Chamber and in the I am conscious that other Members want to contribute House will wholeheartedly recognise the huge contribution to the debate, so let me turn finally to the significance of of the arts. I am delighted to have recently set up an the decline in local council funding. Local authorities all-party parliamentary group, along with Opposition have borne a disproportionate burden of the cuts, and colleagues, to recognise the huge and growing role the those in deprived areas more so. With less money available arts have in our health and well-being. I shall enjoy and increasing demands for social care and other vital working with Members from both sides of the House services, where will money for the arts come from? Arts on promoting a greater understanding. Council funding is rightly based on the principle of I am here because I represent, in Cornwall, one of the additionality, designed to add to the base provided by most creative parts of the country. I am pleased to local authorities, but local authorities simply do not represent Falmouth, which has a wonderful arts university have the resources to maintain core funding at the level that this Government enabled to exist. The hon. Gentleman we need. was right to highlight some of the statistics and on the face of it, they do not make very good reading. The Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): south-west has 12% of the national population and One of South Yorkshire’s great cultural assets is brass contributes 20% of the gross value added, but Arts bands, as is the case in many parts of the country, but at Council and lottery expenditure there is well below that. the moment we are losing out to the strength of the On the face of it, it looks like we are not getting a fair brass band movement in Wales. There is certainly a crack of the whip. Regions with remote, rural, sparsely discrepancy in funding for brass bands as far as the Arts populated communities such as the one I represent have Council is concerned, but local authorities, such as to compete with great centres such as Plymouth and Sheffield, are also cutting grants to small village brass Bristol, so in percentage terms we probably get even a bands such as those in my constituency, because they smaller share of the money. However, focusing only on have no longer have the funds to give them. Is not our those statistics does not really paint the whole picture. brass band movement one of the most important parts Over the past year or so I have been pleased to meet of our cultural heritage in this country and should we our regional Arts Council representatives, who have not do something to help it? developed a deep understanding of the challenges faced 35WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 36WH

[Sarah Newton] The organisation that secured the money, the Cornwall Art Centre Trust, is led by the excellent Ross Williams. in enabling rural communities to access the arts in the He says that the huge investment in Cornwall will broadest sense, and of the opportunities for places such significantly increase the cultural engagement of visitors as Cornwall. They have been enabling partnership working, and those living there. As we can see from those which is key to the future, and such funding is enabling two short examples, lots of small and medium-sized really positive changes in Cornwall. organisations are coming together, rather than competing I want to highlight two recent examples. Last year, as they have in the past. They are now collaborating and the For Cornwall museum partnership scooped more understand that by working together, they can leverage than £250,000 from the Arts Council. It is a partnership more funds into the area to the benefit of visitors and between Falmouth art gallery, the National Maritime residents. museum in Falmouth, Penlee House gallery and museum, On 15 February I will be welcoming to Truro Sir Peter and Porthcurno Telegraph museum. They have been Bazalgette, who will accompany me to watch the English joined by the Royal Cornwall museum, which got an Touring Theatre’s acclaimed production of “Eternal additional £253,000 from the Arts Council strategic Love”, and I will be lobbying hard for further investment fund. In the words of the really excellent Alison Bevan, in the excellent Hall for Cornwall and other arts the director of Penlee House gallery and museum, who organisations in Cornwall. led the partnership: A lot more needs to be done to make sure that we “With support from Cornwall Council”— attract investment into Cornwall, and we need to tackle so working with partners in Cornwall— the unfairness and some of the anomalies that have crept into our system. However, I am encouraged by the “we worked up a Museums Strategy for the county...The benefits new approach taken by the Arts Council, as evidenced of partnership working are obvious and we are trying to spread by the money we have received over the past two years. those benefits to other museums within the county. We have learned a lot from working together.” We will be able to grow and appreciate our arts even more in Cornwall. Cornwall is well suited to such partnership working, which enables small and medium-sized organisations to work together. 3.54 pm Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Like other hon. Jesse Norman: I agree entirely with the powerful case Members, I do not want this debate to become a tit for my hon. Friend is making for partnership working. Our tat between London and the regions. All of us who great institutions were founded on the basis of being represent the English regions acknowledge the vital universal—not just for this country but for the whole importance of London as a cultural hub and powerhouse world. Despite the excellent work already being done by for arts and culture. Other hon. Members have already the Tate, the National Maritime Museum, the National described London institutions touring and going out to Gallery and other places, is there not even more scope the regions, but many of our constituents in Cornwall for the great collections to feed out more into rural and Devon enjoy the odd trip, if they are fortunate areas? In Herefordshire, we would willingly and delightedly enough, to London to visit our wonderful museums host a great work of art alongside the Mappa Mundi, and theatres. for example, in Hereford cathedral. There is so much The recent “Rebalancing our Cultural Capital” report scope for partnership working to increase. revealed an imbalance in funding, and I am pleased that the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, of which I Sarah Newton: My hon. Friend makes an excellent am a member, agreed to my request to hold an enquiry case. I know from my conversations with the Arts into this issue. We hope to do so and to report in the Council that it very much has that in mind. There will next few weeks. As my hon. Friend the Member for be a lot more touring of exhibitions and theatre groups. Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) has made absolutely As already mentioned, not only the London-based clear, it is not only Arts Council and lottery funding organisations will be touring the regions. We have fantastic that are a problem. The imbalances combine with the theatre companies born and bred in Cornwall that are much bigger challenge, which he pointed to, of raising now touring the rest of the UK. Culture can be exported private and philanthropic support in the English regions. around the regions from anywhere that excellence is Compared with London, where huge financial services produced, and I understand that funds allocated by the companies and others are based—they get the kudos Arts Council should make that possible. I am sure it will from supporting the Royal Opera House, for example—we apply to works of art as well. in the regions do not get the same capital and funding In January, we in Cornwall were lucky enough to support from the private sector, however hard we try. benefit from a new sort of partnership working: the When we put that together with local authorities’withdrawal cultural destinations programme, which will make available of support for arts and culture, we have a really serious sums of money for working with arts organisations in imbalance. my constituency. We will receive more than £340,000 to I am sure hon. Members are aware that unitary and build a new partnership that will add value, appeal to upper-tier authorities are in the process of deciding visitors coming into Cornwall and help us grow our their spending priorities for the next three years, following local economy in a sustainable way. It will create a the announcement of their funding in the next unique identity, promote the extraordinary cultural wealth comprehensive spending review period. Some are already we have in Cornwall and enable the people who live in issuing dire warnings about having to retrench and fund Cornwall, as well as visitors, to benefit from increased only services for which they are statutorily responsible. access to the arts. As we all know, that would mean great peril for the arts 37WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 38WH and culture in many parts of our country. I am sure we 2.59 pm all acknowledge the difficult economic climate the Government face, having had to extend their austerity Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): It is a programme, but I am sure the Minister and his Secretary great pleasure to contribute to this debate, and I congratulate of State are aware of the invaluable contribution to the the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) nation’s well-being and to our economy that a flourishing on securing it. Arts and culture add to our quality of arts and cultural sector makes. They will doubtless be life, and we all recognise their importance at a national making those points forcefully over the next months to and local level. the Treasury and to Government colleagues. Arts and culture already have a vibrant presence in The symbiotic relationship between arts and culture, the regions, and some arts initiatives do not require any and social and economic well-being, is extremely visible commercial support. I pay tribute to the investment in my own constituency of Exeter. One of the reasons made by TV companies such as ITV and Channel 4, why Exeter has become such a desirable place to live and by the BBC, which continues to fund productions and work, and for businesses to relocate to, is the rich, by independent companies. I might also mention attractive and varied culture we can offer. From our Glyndebourne, which manages to be rather successful national award-winning museum to the sharp, edgy and without a single penny of subsidy, or the extraordinary award-winning Bike Shed Theatre, we have built up in Melvin Benn, who brings the greatest of modern culture recent years a cultural capital that attracts and keeps to places around the country—including my constituency, young talent and thrills and entertains residents and where he stages the wonderful Latitude festival. Of visitors. That is recognised by my forward-looking local course, I recognise that much of the arts requires substantial authority, Exeter city council, which, despite suffering support from the public purse, or from the pockets of big cuts in funding from central Government, has managed the public via funding redirected from their purchase of to sustain its support for arts and culture in Exeter. lottery tickets. I value the contribution that the lottery That is in stark contrast to nearby Somerset, for example, makes to bringing a wide variety of culture to large which ended all support for the arts after the Government’s parts of the country. first round of cuts. I want to recognise the extraordinary cultural legacy That leads me to the two requests I want to make to in my constituency of a gentleman called Benjamin the Minister. The first is that he and his Secretary of Britten, the centenary of whose birth we celebrated State should use their offices over the next days and last year. In my constituency, we have sustained his weeks to remind local authorities, as they face tough extraordinary legacy, which has involved children and spending choices, of the value and importance of arts world-class artists. On 22 November, the centenary of and culture. The leader of Devon county council, for Benjamin Britten’s birth, we held an event called Friday example, has recently issued a warning about having to Afternoons. It is estimated that 100,000 children from pare council spending down to mere statutory requirements. around the world contributed to that celebration of We do not want any more councils going the way of probably one of the greatest ever British composers. In Somerset. We want more to learn from the example of that vein, I will give a quick plug for the director of Exeter. A further round of savage cuts in local government Aldeburgh Music, Jonathan Reekie. He has served with support will tip a lot of excellent and valued cultural great distinction, and I want to thank him. He was organisations over the edge. recognised in the Queen’s birthday honours last year and is moving to take up the leadership of Somerset My second plea, through the Minister to the Arts House in London. That will be a great loss for our Council, is that it use its funding clout to encourage regional arts and culture. local government to do the right thing. The Arts Council inevitably comes under huge pressure to step in, in areas Other institutions that have been recognised by the where local government is withdrawing support, to Arts Council include Red Rose Chain and Eastern ensure the survival of at least some cultural footprint. Angles. If anyone wants to visit the east of England, I But I am afraid that—if that is what happens everywhere— urge them to come and see an Eastern Angles production, all that would do is give the green light to philistine because they will be blown away by the creativity achieved local authorities that want to withdraw support, giving on budgets that are, to be blunt, not very large. The Arts them the impression that the Arts Council will simply Council has made more money available to the regions, step in and replace the funding. A far more sensible although I recognise that it is nowhere near as much as approach would be for the Arts Council to base is available in London. funding decisions, where possible, on continuing I completely endorse the comments from the hon. support from local government. That would reward Member for Sheffield Central and the right hon. Member good councils such as Exeter and deter bad ones such as for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) about how much more Somerset. challenging it is to get philanthropic donations outside Finally, like the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth London. I hope that the Government take that on (Sarah Newton), I welcome the commitment by Sir Peter board. I was particularly pleased to see the autumn Bazalgette, the new chairman of the Arts Council, to statement building on the great work that has been look again at the regional imbalance identified in the done on tax credits for film and high-quality TV—that “Rebalancing our Cultural Capital”report. I look forward has, by the way, led to a great renaissance in Northern to his visiting Exeter later this month and to showing Ireland, with the production of “Game of Thrones” him—perhaps on his way to Cornwall—how the and the development of the film and television industry combination of a visionary local authority and a in Belfast—by committing to launching a consultation strong arts scene can create a virtuous circle from which this spring on the introduction of a tax credit to support our whole community benefits, even in these straitened regional play writing, which would benefit theatres that times. commission new work. 39WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 40WH

[Dr Thérèse Coffey] to look at all the individual funding streams and investigate whether investment in those areas resulted in economic I turn to local government. The right hon. Member growth? I was pleased to hear from my right hon. for Exeter is right that we should support creative local Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) that the governments and say, in a pantomime fashion, “yah-boo” Culture, Media and Sport Committee is going to do to the baddies—the philistines of local government. I some detailed work on that. It is important that we do not want to be too political about this, but when understand better exactly where money is going in the certain councils announced that they would cut every regions and what the outcomes of such investment are. penny of funding to libraries or the arts, there was a risk Who is served by the arts and cultural events put on of shroud-waving. Councils around the country have in Plymouth? Apart from Plymouthians, the evidence recognised that investing in the arts locally is as important shows that the audiences who visit our theatres come as investing in new roundabouts. In Basingstoke, where from a vast rural hinterland that extends to Exeter, into I used to work, the council took a decision in the ’60s to Cornwall and beyond. Those visitors often stay overnight, do something about that to attract businesses. The which also helps our local economy. Audiences find that council recognised that Basingstoke needed a cultural going to Plymouth is much better value for money than offering to encourage executives to locate there and to buying an expensive train ticket to London and a very make the town feel good about itself. I commend councils expensive ticket to an event, for which they may almost that have continued to recognise the importance of arts need a bank loan. People in Plymouth simply cannot and culture funding. afford to do that. Cornwall is recognised by the EU as Returning to central Government, I applaud the work one of the most deprived regions in the UK, if not in done to try to secure the status of European city of Europe. It is unfair to isolate our region as the current culture. I congratulate Hull on winning city of culture arts funding set-up does, and I agree with all colleagues this year; we know how much good that designation has in the room that the matter really needs to be looked at done for Derry/Londonderry during the past 12 months. again. I also want to say “well done” to Alan Davey from the The transmission of live events on big screens and in Arts Council. I was on the Culture, Media and Sport cinemas has been a wonderful way of bringing live Committee at the start of the Parliament, and there was performances out to the regions and even into poorer a deep intake of breath when it became clear that things parts of London. It has given people a way to see, for would not be done as they had been before. I think that example, the Royal opera or the ballet. It is not the the Arts Council has done extraordinarily well. By whole answer, however; it is something of a halfway focusing on quality rather than simply spreading money house, and people would like to see the real thing. around, it has improved the quality of the offering available around the regions. As we have heard, the impact of cultural development on an economy is significant. We can see that by looking I want to celebrate what is happening in the arts and at what has happened in Gateshead or Glasgow, or with culture outside London. I recognise that there will The Lowry in Salford. In Plymouth, we are looking at always be a case for national funding, but we must setting up a new cultural centre in the former civic encourage Sir Peter Bazalgette and Alan Davey to centre, and a bid has been placed with the Arts Council continue to think about those of us outside the M25. for the necessary funding. That development would Long may culture and the arts rule! create international contemporary arts studios, independent film options, theatres of different sizes and outdoor 3.5 pm festival performance space. That is a really exciting potential project that I hope the Arts Council will look Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): It is a at sympathetically, not least because 4 million tickets pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal are sold for just those nine large regional theatres, as (Dr Coffey) and listen to her talking about the success compared to 13 million in London. That is not an of the Britten anniversary, which I think most people in insignificant amount, but we could certainly do better. this room appreciated. I thank my hon. Friend the The regional theatres are faced with London’s getting Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) for securing 90% of philanthropic donations and 70% of business the debate, because clearly there is a great deal of sponsorship. The match funding imbalance, which so concern, across parties and around the regions, about many Members have already touched on, is significant. the matter that we are debating. I am afraid that I must come back to the cuts and the I want to talk particularly about Plymouth. The city potential impact on Plymouth. I want the Theatre Royal, is home to one of the nine largest independent theatres the Drum theatre, the Barbican theatre, the Plymouth in the country, which puts on some amazing productions. arts centre and our museum to flourish. I want visitors It is extremely concerned about the ever-widening gap to come, and to see our city as a real cultural treat. It between London and the regions and the serious financial was the home to Beryl Cook, Joshua Reynolds and imbalance that exists; London is assigned 14 times as Robert Lenkiewicz. We have a thriving college of art much taxpayer money per head than the rest of England. and design that is seeking to become a university—fingers As a Londoner, I also acknowledge that there has been crossed on that. We have production companies such as a skewing of funding from some of the bigger institutions TwoFour productions, and a rehearsal space at TR2 in the centre of London to those in the outer areas. used by west end productions. That is obviously one Institutions such as the Queen’s theatre in Hornchurch benefit of having links with London, which my right or perhaps even Greenwich theatre might make a case hon. Friend the Member for Exeter touched on. for revisiting the way in which funding is distributed. Our city council is facing swingeing cuts. It took the Will the Minister tell me—I genuinely do not know the bull by the horns and has not thus far dug into the arts answer—whether any detailed work has been done recently and leisure budget as much as other councils have. 41WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 42WH

Instead, it bid to be UK city of culture. I am delighted rural settings—there is a whole load. I have been to lots that my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon of small theatres and arts centres. Some of them are Hull North (Diana Johnson) is here and I wish her city good; some are excellent. Some struggle with some of well for 2017. The leader of Plymouth council, Tudor the performances; some do not. Evans, felt that making our bid was the right thing to It is most important that, to encourage people to go do. He said publicly that it would be an abdication of to such places, we ensure that our young people are the council’s duty interested at an early age. They must not see theatre, “to readily accept its (Plymouth’s) cultural decline” music, dance or whatever as being elitist. That is why I as a result of the cuts. That is absolutely right, but since would recommend that the Minister speaks to some of he will have to find a further £60 million over the next his colleagues in the Department for Education and few years, he will be pushed harder than ever simply to elsewhere to ensure that such arts are not forgotten. We manage his core services. have heard that the arts are often the first to suffer cuts The screws are being turned on Plymouth and on because they are not at the front line. I would say the other local authorities, so I urge the Minister to consider same about education. People must learn the value of fully the report, “Rebalancing Our Cultural Capital”, these things. If we put money into them now, we might as well as the recommendations of the Select Committee. not have to subsidise them in future because they will be self-sustaining. Several hon. Members rose— Finally, we must also remember that the arts are not just about pleasurable experience. I have found that Martin Caton (in the Chair): Order. If we are to hear some theatre productions, films and satire put across an everyone speak, we need speeches to last less than three argument much more strongly than what we say in this minutes, with no interventions. place with our brilliant oratory. I finally decided that I was going to vote against the Iraq war when I saw Rory 3.12 pm Bremner on the television, because the satire made me realise how absurd the idea was. My current crusade on Sir John Randall (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Con): modern-day slavery is well served by audiences seeing I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. the reality of things rather than simply reading bland I congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield Central things in newspapers. (Paul Blomfield) on securing this debate. He introduced it well. I may not be the popular perception of a luvvie, but my great-grandfather trod the boards at Covent 3.16 pm Garden and, as Members would have heard during the pre-debate banter, I have two sons—one an actor and Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab): It is a the other in training, both at the Royal Central School great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. of Speech and Drama. I have been to many small arts I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield centres and theatres around the country, following my Central (Paul Blomfield) on securing this debate. He elder son, Peter, to see how things are going on, so I has really shone a light on the disparities in regional have a bit of perspective. arts funding. My constituency, Blackpool, has attracted I agree with most of what has been said so far. I must under £1 million from the Arts Council over the period say that some things that have been mentioned in relation covered by the report, compared with the £23 million to the cuts are not new. I can remember one of the first granted to London. Seaside and coastal towns such as things I did when I came to Parliament was to go on an Blackpool are often on the periphery, but there can be a all-party delegation to the Arts Council—probably in determined focus on funding issues, such as occurred in 1998—to try to save the D’Oyly Carte theatre, which the mid-2000s. Along with other MPs from seaside and was about to go under. Luckily, Lord Bishop stepped in coastal towns, I put points very strongly to the Heritage to save it, and I believe that it is still doing very well, Lottery Fund regarding seaside parks and public spaces. which is a great delight for fans of Gilbert and Sullivan How we define things such as arts and culture will such as myself. vary enormously, but for me they are about performance, We have heard about how productions move out of the visual, the oral, the written and heritage. The north-west London, and that applies to exhibitions and orchestras is a rich crucible for each of those; one has only to think as well. It is also absolutely true that some very good of art at Port Sunlight, Anthony Gormley’s men on the performances by companies and orchestras outside London beach at Crosby, the Liverpool poets, L. S. Lowry, the should appear in this city, and they do. I take the point Hallé orchestra and Carol Ann Duffy—I have made my made by the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), point. who I think has just departed, about the Lindisfarne Blackpool, in the north-west, is a paradigm for how gospels. If an area has a particular relic or artefact that those things can be done not just locally but opened out relates to it, that will be treasured a little more than all to all sorts of people across the country. Over the past the other riches we can find in museums. There is 15 to 20 years, Blackpool has reinvented itself for the obviously a limit to that, because we want national 20th century. We have done so via regeneration; via the collections, but some movement could take place. development of the seafront and the public realm; by Other things encourage the arts as well. We have lots promoting public art such as the glitter ball; through of US film production companies over here because of works of art featured in St John’s square; and through the tax breaks. The locations are not just in London; the reinvention of the town and the winter gardens. All they are filming all around the country. That inspires that was done through funding from the last Labour people. There is also a lot going on in the regions. It is Government, the regional development agencies and not just about theatres in regional centres, or those in Europe, with the co-operation of the council. 43WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 44WH

[Mr Gordon Marsden] country as tourists come to London first, so it is only right for there to be investment in London, to encourage We have created new headlands with European money, growth and prosperity. especially the tower headland, and we have had major new art exhibits such as the Comedy Carpet, which 3.22 pm celebrates the theatrical and showbiz history of Blackpool. Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House. We have the Grundy art gallery and the Carnegie library, which have fantastic local history collections, including 3.45 pm the Cyril Critchlow collection of playbills. That was part of a determined programme of physical and cultural On resuming— renewal. Those Members who have not recently been to see how the winter gardens have been restored to splendour Bob Blackman: As I was saying before the Divisions, or the major renewals to the tower are welcome to do the key to economic growth is investment. Given that, so. what has been said about investment in London must be corrected. In “Rebalancing Our Cultural Capital”, Throughout the process, the local authority and local the Mayor of London clearly states that the per capita bodies have played a crucial role in the vigorous pursuit spending in London for arts lottery funding in 2012-13 of collaboration with the Victoria and Albert museum was £17.26, not the £86.40 that has been cited. We must and the exchange of ideas and initiatives with York, and have the correct facts and figures, so I look to the they have contributed significantly to the injection of inquiry by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee to cultural elements into the regeneration programme. For ensure that we have the right figures before we move example, FYCreatives, funded with money from the forward. The subsidy in London is the lowest of any Government’s local enterprise growth initiative, has design part of the country, and that needs to be understood. and art, and gallery space. There are initiatives in the centre of the town and I pay tribute to council officers I used to serve on the London assembly as deputy and to the cabinet member for tourism, Graham Cain, chairman of the Economic Development, Culture, Sport and the leader of the council, Simon Blackburn. He, and Tourism Committee. In 2007, I commissioned a in particular, has put the heritage issue on the front report on the state of theatres in London, and I am told foot. that it is still the definitive report on the requirement for funding of theatres to encourage the creative industries The Civic Trust has been a major force for highlighting in London and the creative culture that promotes so heritage. We have had incredible community support much of London’s tourism. Actually, very little spending for oral history, and there is a marvellous war memorial is needed to enable many of London’s theatres to prosper, in the town, supported by the Royal British Legion and grow and bring in private sector funding. That needs to the Comrades Club. There is a range of different things, be addressed. but we depend on good bids being made to unlock the available funds. That is the reason, in crude terms, why David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Even if the we have failed to draw funds into Blackpool. Others Mayor of London’s figure is right—personally, I do not have pointed out the same thing. The good work done think that it is, so I too look forward to the Select in the community includes Wordpool, a literary festival Committee’s report—the funding level in London is that reaches out as an alternative for children and four to five times more than that in the English regions. young people, the Fylde coast dance initiative, and in How can that possibly be defended? the next couple of weeks the Showzam project in the centre of the town—a display of circus, magic and new Martin Caton (in the Chair): Order. Before the hon. variety—as well as the illuminations themselves. All Gentleman replies, I remind Members that we need to those things are magnets to bring people into the town, keep our contributions down to something like three but we need support to succeed, and to make a reality of minutes and interventions will probably prevent us from Blackpool’s heritage plans, including the excellent suggestion doing that. for a new museum of popular culture and the seaside, which has gone to the Heritage Lottery Fund. Bob Blackman: Thank you, Mr Caton. Places such as Blackpool do not need a handout; In answer to my hon. Friend, the key is driving they need a leg up, from Arts Council England, from economic growth. The reality is that the creative industries Departments, in recognition of the scale of the cuts, in London account for one in 12 jobs in the UK and and from the Minister, whom we need to fight our one in eight jobs in London. The point is that if we corner. invest in London, we will create faster economic growth for the long-term benefit of the whole economy. The 3.21 pm creative industries in this country are worth £71.4 billion, Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I congratulate which is a huge amount of money. If we want to see the hon. Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) investment, it must take place in that sector. on securing the debate. I note what the right hon. The Communities and Local Government Committee, Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) said, and unfortunately on which I sit, is conducting an inquiry at the moment much of the debate portrays the issue as a battle between on devolution of funding, not only to London but to London and the regions. In reality, there are two aspects other cities and regions. With devolution comes of the matter to take into account when decisions are responsibility, and I take the strong view that when the taken. First, the arts and the creative industries are part Arts Council or any other grant-awarding body is giving and parcel of people’s quality of life; secondly, there is out money to invest in the creative industries—the arts, the question of promoting growth and enterprise. The the culture or any other creative area—it should be simple fact is that 63% of people who come to this done hand in hand with matched funding from local 45WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 46WH authorities, to ensure that we maximise the amount of from the national lottery. They have a higher proportion money available. We talk about devolution to local of spend and, as a bare minimum, they should be authorities and beyond; with devolution comes the getting a return on that investment. responsibility to invest in arts and culture, and not to I shall talk in the few seconds I have left about arts for say, “We’ll decimate the arts and culture, and we’ll ordinary people. The ARC in Stockton is a multipurpose invest in other areas.” cultural venue with hundreds of events a year. In a I think we have to be clear that this should not end up single year, it hosted 230 professional performances and as a battle between London and the regions. The 80 community performances, engaging more than 110,000 opportunity is there to invest in the creative industries visitors. A hundred artists are employed to provide in both London and the regions. We have to ensure that 1,000 creative learning opportunities, enjoyed by more the facts and figures quoted by all hon. Members are than 14,000 children, young people, adults and older correct. people. That is what the arts are about—not just fancy museums and opera houses in London. but what is 3.50 pm actually happening out in the regions. It is time that we had a fairer share of the money that is available. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. A remarkable milestone in the cultural heritage of 3.53 pm my Stockton North constituency will be reached this Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): August, when Billingham international folklore festival It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member marks its 50th anniversary. The festival started with an for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) in the debate. Irish dance troupe dancing in the town hall, run by the Let me quickly put a word for opera houses in London, late Phil Conroy, and we now have an internationally of which I am very fond. renowned event with a rich blend of the traditional and the contemporary. I hope that hon. Members from all It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, parties accept my invitation to join us between 8 and Mr Caton. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member 16 August, but if they cannot, they can instead come to for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) on the way he Stockton between 31 July and 3 August, when Stockton introduced this well attended debate, which has struck a international riverside festival takes place, showcasing chord with hon. Members from all parties. It is striking the best in small and large-scale street theatre. that every hon. Member who has taken part has made the good point, which I endorse, that this debate should I do not apologise for making a pitch for those two not be about London versus the regions. events, which with other arts groups, including our fabulous ARC centre and Tees Music Alliance, have I was not surprised by the findings of the report, taken the widest range of cultural experiences to the “Rebalancing our Cultural Capital”. It is right and widest possible audience. Yes, we have had tremendous proper that particular funding is provided to important success in arts and culture. The last time I had a debate institutions of national and international standing and in this Chamber, the Minister mentioned the richness he it is logical that those will be located in the capital, but had heard about. Of course, much more could have that point only goes so far. I was genuinely surprised by been done in the north-east if the region had a fair the extent of the funding and the ratio of £69 per head share of the massive pot that is available for arts and spent on the arts from all sources in London, compared culture. to the £4.60 for the rest of the country, a ratio of 15:1, The north-east is more typically associated with or 14:1, as my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, shipbuilding and manufacturing than with the arts, but Moor View (Alison Seabeck) said. the people in the north-east have a real passion for the I welcome the Select Committee inquiry. If these arts. Since the late 1990s, the region has had budding figures are contested by the Mayor of London or the significance in the creative industries, spurred by the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), or finances made available under Labour and the regional whoever, it is right that the facts are established, but I development agency, as well as from the European suspect that this report will not be far of the mark. Its Union and national lottery funding. A clever combination authors have reflected carefully on the implications of of investment and foresight has resulted in the north-east, their finding and have come up with a number of one of Britain’s poorest and most deprived areas in modest, sensible, workmanlike proposals. I hope that many measures, establishing some of the finest creative the Minister agrees at least to consider them and see if arts infrastructure in the country. For instance, we not they are workable. The report recommends that, of the only boast of international attractions, such as the different funding streams administered by the Arts Baltic Centre for Contemporary Art and the Sage Council—the money from the Department, the Arts Gateshead concert hall, but of national and regional Council and the national lottery—the national lottery establishments, such as ARC in Stockton and the segment is hypothecated, at least in part, to a specific Middlesbrough Institute of Modern Art. fund dedicated to the non-London part of England; in Despite all that, ease of access to the arts remains far other words, to regional arts. from fair for the regions. Some two thirds of the population When one takes into account the private sector funding, live beyond the reach of the productions and collections 82% of which is spent in London, with the remaining of the so-called national cultural organisations, and 18% spent in the rest of the country, the thrust of the three quarters of decisions on arts funding are taken expenditure pattern is all too clear. The proposal in the centrally rather than regionally—a proportion that continues report is modest and is all the more justified when we to climb. There is another aspect to this: the vast look at who is contributing into the lottery. Some 56% majority of money spent on the lottery tends to be of households in the north-east region play the lottery. spent in poorer areas, but they do not get their return In London, the region with the lowest participation in 47WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 48WH

[Mr Nicholas Brown] 4.1 pm Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I congratulate percentage terms, 32% of households play the lottery. my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul So it is possible to win the lottery without playing it: all Blomfield) on securing this debate. It is a great pleasure you have to do is move to London. If the figures in the to follow not one but two former Labour Secretaries of report are right, it is fair to find some way of altering State for Culture, Media and Sport, my right hon. the balance. Friends the Members for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) and for Let me make a plea for the north-east. We were able Dulwich and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell). It is to get the Sage, one of the most wonderful concert very good that they have turned up to speak. halls—similar to the symphony hall that the people of Birmingham have—which is acoustically accurate and I will not spend a lot of time paying tribute to designed for the performance of great music, but it Bristol’s arts and cultural scene and creative industries, costs money to bring orchestras of worldwide distinction which are well known. Bristol has everything from the to venues of this kind and to the north-east of England. natural history unit to Aardman. We had the “Gromit If we could have a little fund that would make up the Unleashed” exhibition, if I can call it that, in the city difference between the amount of money that one can last year. There were some 80 Gromits dotted around reasonably get from the sale of tickets and the cost of the city centre, and more than 1 million visitors came. providing the orchestral concerts, that would go an People came from Japan to take pictures of themselves enormous way to bringing the Sage building back to its with the Gromits, which shows that Bristol does not original intended purpose and would boost the arts in always do things in the established way. There is a big the north-east of England. counter-cultural scene in Bristol, which for the most part operates outside the realm of Arts Council funding 3.58 pm and is probably happy doing so. The Banksys of this Dame Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) world, for example, have no need for anyone’s money (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the except their own these days. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown). As we have heard, arts in the regions have been He has laid down a powerful challenge, because this disproportionately affected by cuts to arts and culture. debate, and therefore its conclusions, falters on the The Bristol Old Vic’s artistic director Tom Morris described uncertainty and ambiguity of the figures in two respects. it as a “triple whammy” of national cuts, local cuts and He has made the point about the lottery, but when the the greater difficulties that places outside London have claimed discrepancy between London and the rest of in getting philanthropic funding. We know from research the country is interrogated, it does not take account of published by the shadow Secretary of State for the postcode distribution of those figures. A cultural Communities and Local Government that the most institution based in London but doing a lot of performance deprived local authorities have suffered a disproportionately and so forth outside it will still count against the London large share of funding cuts, which has a knock-on tally. effect. I say to the Minister that there is a pressing need for figures that Members can have faith and confidence in. Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab): Does my That would begin to deal with this sense that London is hon. Friend agree that there is a similar situation in being set against the rest of country, when in fact its many constituencies? In Bolton, the crescent building, great cultural institutions are interdependent with those which has a museum, a library and an art gallery, has in other parts of the country. had to make 25 people redundant and sell 36 pieces of I feel very proud of the previous Government, of which art so it can survive. I was a member, for many reasons. One is the funding of regional arts and the restoration of funding for regional Kerry McCarthy: Cuts have a cumulative impact. Not museums. just the Arts Council cuts but other cuts are having a real impact. The artistic director of the Nottingham My second point, which the hon. Member for Hereford Playhouse has said that cuts will particularly affect the and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) also made— theatre’s ability to commission new plays. He concluded unfortunately, he is not in his place—is that the figures that cuts are are misleading. He has a rural constituency and therefore has an interest from that perspective. The regional “about centralisation....loss of identity and undermining of the regional voice”. nature of the figures means that the allocation to rural areas is subsumed in an overall regional average that is In the limited time that I have left, I will focus on the heavily dominated by cities such as Manchester, Liverpool, fact that not all parts of Bristol benefit evenly from Arts Birmingham, Newcastle and Leeds. Council funding. We have talked about the discrepancy Today’s debate, for which I thank my hon. Friend the between London and the regions, but there is a discrepancy Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield), is a even within Bristol. None of the 15 national portfolio welcome and important starting point, but we need an arts organisations in Bristol, which share the £4.3 million undertaking from the Minister that he will improve the grant in aid that goes to the city, are based in my quality of the data. To coin Jennie Lee’s phrase, the role constituency of Bristol East. Of the 79 projects in of an arts Minister in relation to the arts community is Bristol supported by the Arts Council through its national money, policy and silence, but I think it should be lottery-funded grants for the arts, only four are based in money, policy and silence—but better figures. Bristol East. That is partly because the city centre is home to historical and cultural buildings and activities, Martin Caton (in the Chair): I call Kerry McCarthy, but we need to consider how we can use arts funding to but I have to ask her to resume her seat by five minutes take things out to the communities, and to bring the past 4 so that the wind-ups can begin. communities into the city centre, too. There is a divide, 49WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 50WH and many people do not feel that they share in the in the east midlands and the east of England get only a artistic spoils of Bristol in the way they should. I have fifth of what Londoners get and that the east midlands, been approached by the Arts Council’s south-west office a region of 6 million people, has no major partner on precisely that issue. We met a couple of weeks ago, museum? The lottery spend under Arts Council England’s and I am reassured that the Arts Council is committed control tells a similar story: £12 per person in London to ensuring that Bristol’s imbalance is addressed. compared with £2.99 per person in the west midlands and £2.78 per person in the north-west—in other words, less than a quarter. 4.5 pm Arts Council England seems to think that it is some Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): It is a sort of triumph that just 31% of the lottery funding that pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Caton. I it distributes was awarded to London’s institutions. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield That seems less commendable when one discovers that Central (Paul Blomfield) on securing this very important London accounts for only 10% of lottery ticket sales, debate, which has been attended by 16 Labour Members. whereas people in the north-east get 3.6% of the spend One of the pleasures of holding the arts portfolio is but pay for 7.6% of lottery tickets. The authors of being reminded of the excellent quality of the arts “Rebalancing Our Cultural Capital” suggest that the across the country. My right hon. Friends the Members rebalancing should begin with the lottery money. We for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), for Newcastle upon Tyne need a proper audit of what is going on, taking account East (Mr Brown) and for Dulwich and West Norwood of DCMS support, Arts Council England grants, Arts (Dame Tessa Jowell) and my hon. Friends the Members Council England-distributed lottery funding and the for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), for Blackpool Heritage Lottery Fund. South (Mr Marsden), for Stockton North (Alex It is notable that HLF’s distribution matches the Cunningham) and for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) population far more closely than Arts Council England- have all attested to that fact. Nobody can doubt the distributed lottery funding. London, with 15% of the quality of regional arts, the audience for regional arts population, gets 19% of the spend. The east of England, or the talent that comes from regional arts, so we need with 11% of the population, gets 10% of the spend. to ask why there is such a funding disparity. Yorkshire and Humber’s 10% of the population is perfectly Much has been made of the independent report matched with 10% of the spend. That proves that it can “Rebalancing Our Cultural Capital”, which found that be done and suggests that there is a relationship with Londoners get nearly £70 a head and the rest of the the institutional structures of the organisation. The country gets £4.60 a head, a ratio of 14:1. The report’s Heritage Lottery Fund has a far more rooted, regional figures do not include the spend on the Cultural Olympiad approach to decision making. or the millennium dome, but they have been questioned One thing I find worrying is this statement in the Arts this afternoon. Obviously one would expect more money Council briefing: to be spent on national institutions, which tend to be in “The Arts Council cannot make up the shortfall and we want capital cities. The National Gallery is bound to cost the to work with local authorities who continue to value and invest in taxpayer more than the Walker art gallery. Equally, it is arts and culture”. true that some of the work undertaken by the national At first blush that seems reasonable, but then one takes institutions directly benefits the regions, such as the account of the disparate and unfair funding settlements National Theatre’s streaming of “Richard II” to cinemas meted out by the Government to local authorities. across the country and the British Museum’s portable Liverpool and Hackney, which are among the 10 most antiquities scheme. Given the questions, though, it is deprived local authorities, are seeing 27% reductions in disappointing that, three months down the track, we spending power, while local authorities in Surrey, which have not had a clear analysis from Arts Council England has some of the 10 least deprived, are seeing 1% increases showing the proportion of the benefits of spending that in spending power. In the real world, cash does not falls in London and the proportion that falls elsewhere, equate to commitment, whereas on the Arts Council which would inform the discussion. model, despite having seven museums, a major orchestra Even on the analysis that Arts Council England has and being the home of the Beatles and Daniel Defoe, provided, the picture shows a serious problem. Over the Liverpool’s funding might fall and Surrey would become five years between 2010 and 2015, some £2 billion of the most cultivated county in England. public money will be spent on cultural institutions in Furthermore, the Arts Council proposed to take local London, excluding the British Library. The direct spend authority investment into account in Manchester and of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is Middlesbrough, but not in Kensington and Chelsea, £447 million, of which 90% is in London. In a series of which puts no money into the V and A, or in Westminster, parliamentary answers to me, the Minister has not home to the National Gallery and the National Portrait justified the rationale for that support. It is an accident Gallery, which has just axed its entire arts budget, of history that the Liverpool museums and the Geffrye despite all the cultural and economic benefits that flow museum are nationally supported while the Laing art to local communities from being home to those magnificent gallery in Newcastle and the Dulwich picture gallery are institutions. not. When people learn that Arts Council England Normally, public subsidy goes where the market fails, supports 77 performing arts organisations in London but that cannot be said for the arts. London has the but only seven in the north-east, it is clear that the largest population of the well-heeled middle classes, the imbalance is not just about a handful of elite institutions. most tourists and the most philanthropists. I am delighted Arts Council England says that grant in aid funding that the Minister, in partnership with the Wolfson is £22 a head in London and £8 a head elsewhere. As Foundation, has spread money across the regions, and I hon. Members have said, how can it be right that people am not cynical enough to think that the Bowes Museum 51WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 52WH

[Helen Goodman] pleased to know that my right hon. Friend will speak to the Local Government Association, and she will, no in my constituency has had a particularly large grant doubt, make it plain how important it is that local because it is the seat of the shadow Minister—it is authorities continue to support the arts. obviously because it has the best collection of European We have heard my hon. Friend the Member for paintings between London and Edinburgh—but will Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) talk about Aldeburgh, the the £4 million make up for the discrepancy in the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) philanthropic spend per head? I doubt it. In London, talk about the Plymouth theatre and my right hon. the spend per head was nearly £60, but in the midlands Friend the Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip it was only £1.83. (Sir John Randall) talk about the power of art to I end with one simple question for the Minister. He transform political debate. The hon. Member for Blackpool cannot continue to hide behind the Arts Council’s skirts. South (Mr Marsden) did not mention the £3 million He has totally failed to persuade the Secretary of State that is coming to Blackpool and Wyre from the Arts for Communities and Local Government of the need to Council’s creative people and places fund. My hon. take account of the value of the arts in local authority Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) settlements. Can the Minister persuade the Arts Council talked about the importance of the arts and the right to take radical steps to reverse that trend? If he does hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown), not, we will see an existential crisis outside the M25. In perhaps the greatest culture Minister we never had, Somerset, the Brewhouse closed; in Darlington, the arts talked about the Sage Gateshead. The hon. Member for centre closed; and, in Richmond, the Georgian theatre Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), who won the seat that I at risk. The losses will be felt not only now, but for many contested in 1997—I turned a 5,000 Labour majority years ahead as young people across the country lose the into a 17,000 Labour majority—does not need to tell stimulation and opportunities provided by the arts. me about the thriving arts scene in Bristol. We can trade statistics back and forth, but it is my 4.13 pm understanding that 70% of lottery funding goes outside London or to projects that benefit the whole nation. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, That percentage has increased from 60% before the Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey): I am grateful for coalition came into power. It is important to note that the chance to respond to this important debate, and I the first act of the coalition was to increase the proportion congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield Central of lottery funding going each to the arts and to heritage (Paul Blomfield) on securing it. It was apposite that from 16% to 20%. during the debate, an e-mail arrived in my inbox from Sheffield Theatres inviting me to the premiere of “The Full Monty” at the Noel Coward theatre on 25 February. Paul Blomfield: Simply to correct the Minister on his “The Full Monty” began in Sheffield a year ago and has numbers, in 2009-10—the last year of the previous since successfully toured what we call “the regions”—that Government—the lottery spend outside London was is, the rest of the country outside of London. That is a 76.3%. It has fallen in 2012-13 to 68.4%. good example of how theatres outside London continue to produce high-quality productions for the enjoyment Mr Vaizey: My briefing from the Arts Council says of people living outside London. the opposite: that it is 70% now and was on average 60% I think Members in all parts of the House can agree under the previous Government. We can trade statistics, that we have had a good debate. The hon. Member for but lottery funding has increased and additional funds Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) pointed out that are available: £45 million for the strategic touring the last time we had a debate on the regional arts, hon. programme, which helps organisations tour outside of Members could not resist telling the House about the London; £37 million in the creative people and places thriving arts organisations in their constituencies. The fund, which was specifically set up by the Arts Council paradox in a debate such as this, when the message is to support the arts where they are not well represented that the arts and the arts outside London need more in certain regions; and £15 million to support 6,500 money, is that most of the messages we hear are about apprenticeship places, many of which will be outside thriving arts communities outside London. London. There is also the £171 million that I secured with the Secretary of State for Education for music Alex Cunningham: It could be better. hubs. For 2015-16 alone, the Arts Council will have something like £570 million to invest in the arts up and Mr Vaizey: Exactly. That is the theme: arts funding is down the country. doing very well, but it could be better. We have had It is important, however, to understand why in the some fantastic contributions. My hon. Friend the pure statistics it looks like London is getting a Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) talked disproportionate share of the funding. The national about north Cornwall museums benefiting from the museums are based in London, but the Victoria and support of the National Maritime Museum. Two former Albert Museum is opening a multimillion pound extension Secretaries of State—the right hon. Members for Exeter in Dundee and it works with Sheffield galleries, as I (Mr Bradshaw) and for Dulwich and West Norwood know from my visits. The British Museum only this (Dame Tessa Jowell)—spoke in the debate. The right week sent me a wonderful publication detailing all the hon. Lady said that the figures perhaps did not give the work it does across the country with other organisations. full picture of how London and the regions are Plus Tate works with 26 contemporary art museums in interdependent. The right hon. Gentleman asked the the UK. The Science Museum has homes in York, current Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport Bradford and Manchester. The Royal Armouries is to speak to local government. I am sure he will be based in Leeds. The Imperial War Museum has bases in 53WH Regional Arts and Culture4 FEBRUARY 2014 Regional Arts and Culture 54WH

Duxford and Salford, as well as in London. There are better. That is what Sir Peter Bazalgette, chair of Arts also organisations that tour, such as the English National Council England, said. He is confident that funding is Ballet. I spoke to the director-designate of the National available for our great arts organisations outside of the Theatre, Rufus Norris, about his ambitious plans to capital and that organisations in the capital work closely support theatre and produce productions outside London with those outside. He has, however, said “could do and bring them into the National Theatre. That will no better” and “judge us in two years’ time,” which is right. doubt be helped by the Chancellor’s generous decision To hon. Members who feel concerned, their message to create a tax break for theatre specifically to support has been heard. productions outside London. The list goes on and I could go on and on, but I want Yasmin Qureshi: I honestly do not mean to be facetious, to list some of the places that I have visited as culture but when the Minister has discussions with the chair of Minister. I went to Durham to view the Lindisfarne Arts Council England and other Ministers, will he gospels and saw the huge impact the exhibition had on please ask that the museum, library and art gallery on the city. I have visited the Turner Contemporary, which Le Mans crescent in Bolton is given extra funding, so has already welcomed 1 million visitors, the Hepworth that it does not have to sell any more artwork to Wakefield, Nottingham Contemporary, Sage Gateshead survive? and Bristol Old Vic, which is one of the foremost advocates of arts policy in the country. Mr Vaizey: The hon. Lady is not being facetious in the slightest, but it is important to understand that Arts David Mowat: I thank the Minister for giving way. I Council England is based on the arm’s length principle. am listening hard to his catalogue of stuff going on in The shadow culture Minister said that I cannot hide the regions. Based on that, is it his position that the behind the Arts Council’s skirts, but what is her position? current balance of spending per head between London Will there be a fundamental change of policy by the and the regions is about right and that the report and its Labour party? There have been rumours that Labour recommendations for rebalancing are not a useful would cancel all funding for the big five, the Royal contribution? Opera House and the Royal Shakespeare Company and redistribute that money around the regions. Is that what the Labour would do? It is all right to moan, but she Mr Vaizey: I was going to go on to mention the Mary really must come up with an alternative policy. Is it her Rose museum in Portsmouth, Thinktank, which is the position to direct Arts Council funding or to direct Birmingham science museum, Liverpool, which has funding per head in the regions? What is the Labour been European capital culture and contains one of our party’s position? It is about to be explained. national museums, the Manchester international festival, Manchester’s plans for a new arts centre called HOME, Mr Nicholas Brown: It is. The Labour party’s position Aldeburgh, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend is most certainly not as set out by the Minister. I am the Member for Suffolk Coastal, Opera North, the enjoying his speech, but it is unfair to the hon. Member Lowry and the Bowes museum. It is no coincidence that for Warrington South (David Mowat) not to give him the shadow culture spokesperson holds the Bishop the direct answer that he was hoping for. Auckland seat given the huge philanthropic act of Jonathan Ruffer, who saved the Zurbarán paintings and opened Mr Vaizey: I feel that I did give him a direct answer. I up Auckland castle, which I visited a few months ago. explained that the chair of Arts Council England had said that things were going well, but could always do Mr Bradshaw: Rather than continue reading out a better, that the message has been heard loud and clear lengthy list of excellent regional arts organisations, and that judgment should be made in two years’ time. perhaps the Minister could answer the question posed I will not support the recommendation from Patrick by the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Diamond, the former adviser to the previous Labour Mowat) and reassure us that when the Secretary of Prime Minister, to close the British Museum and move State goes to talk to the Local Government Association, it outside London, probably costing several billion pounds. she will come armed with good practice examples of I will also not support Labour’s proposals to stop where local government supports the arts and cultural funding the big five. [Interruption.] The shadow culture community in the way that so many have outlined in spokesperson is going to rule that out. today’s debate. Helen Goodman: I certainly am going rule out that we Mr Vaizey: It is important that the right hon. Gentleman are going to end all funding to what the Minister calls has stopped me in my tracks, because I could go on the “big five”. I have not said it and I do not think it. until the end of the day about the superb regional arts centres found outside London. I could talk about the Mr Vaizey: That is good to hear. I am glad that that national impact of Cultural Olympiad or about world rumour has been put to bed, but I remain in the dark on war one. I think the question put by my hon. Friend the the hon. Lady’s regional policy. Labour has initiated a Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) was well second review of the creative industries, so we will wait answered. We are doing brilliantly, but could always do to hear its conclusions. 55WH 4 FEBRUARY 2014 Independent Retail 56WH

Independent Retail Bill Esterson: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I will come to his points later, but I agree with what he says. I hasten to add that I buy my 4.25 pm coffee from local independent coffee shops. Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Waitrose The Local Data Company has reported that some website’s myWaitrose section states: 66% of retail outlets in town centres were independent “A free cup of tea or coffee every day as a myWaitrose in 2011. To put that into context, however, I should member.” say that since 1980, the number of butchers has fallen from over 40,000 to around 10,000 and the number of It goes on to say: fishmongers has fallen from 10,000 to 2,000. Since “Nothing says ‘welcome’ more than a lovely hot cup of tea or 2001, we have seen a 31% rise in the number of large coffee, so let us treat you to a free regular tea or coffee every day! chains and supermarkets. You can enjoy one cup a day—to drink in or takeaway. Simply present your myWaitrose card at the till and you won’t be charged a penny.” Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In Northern Ireland, In addition, Waitrose offers a free newspaper to customers there is a system of small business relief based on a net who spend more than £5. The myWaitrose offer was annual value of £15,000; in the UK mainland, the NAV drawn to my attention by Mr and Mrs Cairns, who run is £12,000. Does the hon. Gentleman think that it might the village newsagent in Formby, which is near a Waitrose. be a good idea for the Government to consider increasing They sell newspapers—or rather, they used to—but a the NAV cap on the mainland, thereby keeping shops few months ago people could suddenly get a free paper open, rather than closing them, and creating employment, at Waitrose and no longer needed to visit the other rather than unemployment? shops in the village. Bill Esterson: I will let the Minister answer the hon. The impact on the newsagent has been disastrous, Gentleman’s question, but we should be taking the with a big drop in trade. Not only are newspaper sales opportunity to look at all sorts of ways of supporting down, but so too is their other trade. Neighbouring small independent retailers. I will be interested to hear shops in the village have also lost out as customers of the Minister’s answer. the newsagent no longer call in. As people drink their free coffee at Waitrose, they no longer buy from the Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Is my hon. range of independent coffee shops. Instead, they wait in Friend aware that in Bristol we have something called long—sometimes very long—queues after doing their the Bristol pound, our own currency? More than 600 supermarket shopping. A similar point was made to me local shops and businesses now accept the Bristol pound; by a Mr Cant, a constituent of my hon. Friend the people can even pay their bus fares and council tax with Member for Corby (Andy Sawford), who also has a it. It is an excellent way of supporting independent Waitrose store near his shop. Colleagues from elsewhere businesses and encouraging people to spend their Bristol around the country will have similar examples. pounds in independent shops, rather than the big stores. The proprietor of Formby Books, Tony Higginson, Perhaps Liverpool ought to do the same. also tells me about the impact of supermarkets selling books at a much lower price than he can as an independent Bill Esterson: Liverpool no doubt should, but perhaps book shop owner. Speaking of bookshops, it is only fair Sefton can do it first— that I mention Pritchard’s, which has bookshops in Formby and in Crosby. In addition to competition from Kerry McCarthy: Sorry—Merseyside. the supermarkets, the bookshops face competition from online retailers such as Amazon. Bill Esterson: A Merseyside pound would be an even We also have a Tesco in Formby, which recently better idea. opened a hand car wash which took most of the trade I was aware of the Bristol pound. We need to look at from the car wash on the industrial estate next door. innovative ideas that support small independent retailers Formby Tyres also operates on that industrial estate. and the local economy, and what happens in Bristol is National Tyres and Autocare recently set up nearby and an active example of that. can sell tyres for less than Formby Tyres can buy them. In addition to the buying power that I described The ability of national chains to buy far more cheaply earlier, the large chains have various other advantages, than small businesses is one of the many challenges including the ability to buy or rent property in advantageous facing independent retailers. locations and access to enormous amounts of data on the behaviour of shoppers, enabling them to tune their David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank the offer towards what consumers want. Since the 1980s, hon. Gentleman for giving way and congratulate him out-of-town shopping centres have become more numerous. on obtaining this debate. I cannot help but wonder They offer large retailers more space than is available whether he has taken up Waitrose’s offer. in traditional town centre locations, but retail units in On a more serious note, he will agree that small such centres are often beyond the financial reach of independent retailers have been the backbone of the small independent shops. United Kingdom’s high streets for many years and that we certainly need to do more for them. We welcome the Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): I thank the hon. 2% cap on rates, but we perhaps need to look at other Gentleman for giving way—he has been incredibly generous issues. The hon. Gentleman mentioned major supermarkets; with all the interventions this afternoon. Does he perhaps we need to consider the whole planning structure agree that it takes some imagination from town centres in the UK. to attract small businesses into empty units? In my 57WH Independent Retail4 FEBRUARY 2014 Independent Retail 58WH constituency, we have a town team that runs an empty sites that are often expensive in terms of rent and rates. unit scheme, which has helped to fund small businesses A first step to be requested is a full revaluation of the to occupy such units. So far, the team has two new rates. Big retailers have many advantages, because of businesses in place, with another three coming on stream. economies of scale, however, so a reform of the rating Will he join me in welcoming the good work of the system is one way in which smaller retailers could be town teams up and down the country? given an advantage to balance their lack of economies of scale. Bill Esterson: I have two town teams in my constituency, In the autumn statement, the Government announced in Crosby and in Maghull. In Maghull, the town team business rates support for retailers, and my party is and the town council were instrumental in opening committed to a cut followed by a freeze in business pop-up shops in an empty unit, which is a similar rates. The reality, however, is that small retailers need us approach to that described by the hon. Lady. What she all to go further; as the NFRN points out, those are all says is important. short-term measures. In some countries, business taxes E-commerce is up from around 2% of sales in 2007 to are collected using a local sales tax. That is only one around 10% in 2013. Internet shopping offers independent possible option, although no doubt the Treasury has retailers the opportunity to compete on a more level reasons for rejecting such an approach—it usually does. playing field with larger retailers, because the cost of How many local shop keepers have good advisers and overheads is massively reduced, but recognised brands mentors to help them set up and support them over the still have an advantage in the online environment. In years? Who is there to advise independent bookshops addition, footfall in town centres is reduced by internet on how to make the most of the internet? Where is the shopping, meaning that independent retailers with a support for small shops setting up online trading to physical presence see less through traffic and fewer help them grow and compete with the big players, potential customers. despite their not having much cash to invest in a website? Down the road from Formby is Crosby, where Tesco It can be done, as I discovered when I visited my now has two convenience stores in addition to a medium- constituent Helen Flynn at her shop, Gentle Cosmetics. sized Sainsbury in the village centre. Plans are being Helen has both a shop and an internet presence. More made for a further convenience store in College road in retailers could do both, but they need advice and support. Crosby, near the existing Tesco and next to an existing National Government have a role to play through the Co-op. Plans for a further convenience store from a taxation and planning systems. The Government claim national supermarket chain have caused concern that they have made life easier by changes in planning, among local shopkeepers. but whether independent retailers have benefited or high streets have been revived is another matter. The National Federation of Retail Newsagents represents 16,000 independent news and convenience stores. The Other issues include parking and bank lending. The NFRN tells me: out-of-town supermarkets can offer free parking, while many town centres have parking charges. Sefton council “One of the biggest threats to independent news and convenience retailers has been the rapid growth of the supermarket sector.” offers a free half hour in Crosby and two hours in Formby. Meanwhile, in Maghull, town centre parking is Tesco has more than 1,500 small stores, while Sainsbury free for half an hour in the privately owned car park in has 594, according to The Daily Telegraph. Such stores the town centre. In the run-up to Christmas, parking are close to independent retailers and a third of NFRN in Sefton’s council-run car parks was free on Thursdays members have seen a local or metro-style shop open to support late-night opening. near them in the last year alone. Often, little consideration is given to the impact on existing retail outlets. A system of local banks that work closely with their business customers would also help, hence Labour’s Crosby village centre is very run down, like many proposal for a regional banking system. There is already town centres and high streets around the country, and good practice that could be adopted to address some of the Sainsbury store in the village centre is the biggest the challenges I have mentioned in the debate. In the attraction for visitors. I am optimistic that in the coming case of relationship business banking, the Cumberland years a master plan for Crosby will be produced, but building society already operates in this way. It is the Sainsbury has to be part of that plan. The village only building society, so far as I know, to offer a full desperately needs a complete overhaul, but this needs to business banking service. be in partnership with the independent retailers. We face a cost-of-living crisis, and it is no different for The No. 1 issue raised by independent retailers is independent retailers. Fifty-five per cent. of retailers business rates. One retailer from Crosby told me that tell the Association of Convenience Stores that they small businesses need help with bigger rate relief, as earn less than the national minimum wage. One of my they find their rates crippling. Business rates date from constituents runs the post offices in Formby and in a time when retailers had to have a premises and when Crosby, but after paying her staff and her other costs land and property values were easy to predict. It is a she is left with next to nothing to live on. That story is system from another time, for another time—a time repeated by many retailers I meet. before out-of-town shopping centres, dominant national The experience of many is that being self-employed is chains and the internet. That is why so many people are a tough way to try to survive—something I can confirm calling for a reform of the system to reflect the reality of from personal experience, having run my own business retailing and business in general. for many years. Government can help by making sure Amazon can sell books online and pay no tax on the that the economy grows and by recognising the importance profits generated in this country, and large retailers can of the independent retail sector in our cities, towns and set up shop on low-rated land. Local shops need to be villages. Independent retailers are a key part of our where people will go, which generally means high street economy and are significant local employers as well. 59WH Independent Retail4 FEBRUARY 2014 Independent Retail 60WH

[Bill Esterson] now seeing annual growth of some 8%. Figures released by the British Independent Retailers Association on Research by the Association of Convenience Stores 31 January show that more than half of independent suggests that 76% of new retail space given planning retailers have had their best average growth since 2010. consent is located outside town centres. Far more planning Nearly two thirds of respondents to BIRA are confident consents are given to out-of-town developments than to or very confident about the year ahead, and confidence town centre developments. levels are at their highest since 2009. This debate is about balance. Yes, the big chains are a Our habits as consumers are changing. We are using big part of shopping, and they need to compete with local shops more—including independents—to top up each other, but small, independent retailers are at the our supermarket shopping. Independent shops make heart of our local communities, providing valuable our high streets, town centres and local shops more services to local people and an alternative to the diverse and vibrant. Shopping locally has a positive standardised approach of the big chains. The issue is impact on the local economy. about having a level playing field, and about fairness between large and small businesses. If the big chains As the hon. Gentleman said, the independent retail wipe out the independents, we will all lose as the identity sector has faced challenges. It is simultaneously adapting of our communities will suffer. Competition will be to massive structural challenges driven by changes in reduced if there is no one to challenge the big players. consumer lifestyles and preferences, the impact of new and emerging technologies and the constant evolution The question is, who is on the side of the independent in technology usage. Modern lifestyles demand a much retailers? The big chains can and do look after themselves. more flexible and fragmented shopping style that combines In Formby, Crosby, Maghull and Aintree, I am supporting physical with online retail, and leisure and convenience the “Shop Local” campaign and encouraging people to shopping. Furthermore, the shift to shopping online is support independent retailers. There is room for both reducing some retailers’ need for large and costly physical large and small retailers. We need both—our town stores, as well as creating the need for new and different centres and high streets need both, and so do our design roles such as web design. Technology is driving communities. However, a fair balance between large change—tablets and smartphones are making it easier and small is not going to happen without intervention for consumers to buy online and in any location, and by Government. The Government say that they want to new delivery options such as “click and collect” are support our high streets, and, by implication, our local reducing the problems customers face with home deliveries. shops. The time has come for them to make sure that their actions speak louder than their words. Verdict Research is predicting that as confidence in the economy grows and the population grows, consumer spending will increase. A bi-annual survey of 500 small 4.42 pm businesses conducted by Aviva shows that they have a The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation more positive outlook for the first six months of this and Skills (Michael Fallon): I congratulate the hon. year, compared with two years ago. Retailers that have a Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) on securing distinctive brand, focus on their customers and are well a debate on this important subject. We certainly recognise run are still managing to grow. That is true of independent the value of the whole of our retail sector to our local retailers as well as larger ones, and there are many such and national economies. It employs some 3 million examples from around the country. The hon. Gentleman people and contributes around £80 billion to gross referred to one such small business in his constituency value added—almost 6% of our economy. Retail is a to which he has given his support: Gentle Cosmetics, significant contributor to self-employment and independent which has recently opened a store after successfully shops are themselves often crucibles of entrepreneurship trading online. and innovation. We are seeing increases in local shopping because Research by the Centre for Local Economic Strategies of consumer demand. Research by the Association of discovered that for every £1 spent locally, around 50p to Convenience Stores shows that the fruit and vegetable 70p re-circulates back into the local economy. Local sector has experienced considerable growth as people shops provide hundreds of thousands of flexible jobs, move away from doing one big weekly shop, and are particularly for young people and those who juggle instead increasingly using local stores and shopping other commitments such as child care. They are important more often. hubs of social interaction and can provide vital services I turn now to some of the issues the hon. Gentleman to their communities. Many operate in the convenience raised. If I cannot cover all of them, I hope he will sector, which has seen real growth—there are now nearly allow me to write to him in more detail. I will first say 50,000 convenience stores on the UK mainland. The what the Government are doing to help independent convenience sector is worth some £35 billion in turnover, retailers. As he referred to, the autumn statement announced adding real social and economic value to communities. the biggest business rates support package for 20 years, More than three quarters of shops in the sector are including capping the retail prices index increase in independent, and almost three quarters of owners, business rates at 2% next year; doubling the small interestingly, are the first generation of their family to business rate relief for a further year, to 31 March 2015, own and run a business in the UK. which will benefit over half a million small businesses; a The economy is now growing for the first time since business rates discount of £1,000 for smaller retail the recession, and the retail sector is contributing premises for two years, benefiting around 300,000 shops, enormously to that. Significantly, it is small stores that pubs and restaurants; a 50% discount for 18 months for are driving much of that growth. Figures from the new occupants of property that was previously vacant; Office for National Statistics show that small stores are and allowing businesses to pay their rates bills over 61WH Independent Retail4 FEBRUARY 2014 Independent Retail 62WH

12 months, which will help every firm with their cash I know that many in the independent sector are flow. In the spring we will publish a discussion paper on concerned about what looks like unfair competition options for reform of business rates administration. between large and small, between grocery and other We have been working with the Department for subsectors, between online and offline. We believe that Communities and Local Government on the town centre consumers are served by open competition between support package, which was launched on 6 December. commercial interests, so Government intervention should That package includes a number of initiatives on car never be taken lightly, and any action must be evidence- parking, a review of business improvement districts, based, proportionate and reasonable. If the hon. Gentleman consultations on new permitted development rights and has evidence of that not being so, it is a matter for the other planning reforms, and a call for evidence on the independent competition authorities. red tape that could be hindering high street revival. Retail has always been highly competitive. Retailers are swift to change what they sell, where and how they sell it, and how they operate as businesses if that is what Bill Esterson: Before the Minister moves away from they need to do to drive success. However it is not for business rates, does he recognise the calls from a significant the Government to intervene in these matters. Changes number of business organisations and individual businesses in technologies and consumer habits are not something for a complete overhaul of the business rates systems? the Government or the House can stop or try to reverse, Bearing in mind my comment about business rates nor should we. The dividing lines between different being from another time, what are his views on that subsectors of retail—the hon. Gentleman gave some issue? good examples—are blurring as more and more retailers are innovating to serve customers as best they can. Michael Fallon: I recognise the calls, which I have Small retailers are not immune from these commercial heard from business organisations such as the British pressures. They must adapt and innovate if they are to Retail Consortium and the Association of Convenience survive, and the best of our local stores are doing Stores, whose conference I addressed. They would like a exactly that by trading online with a high street presence, complete overhaul of the system. I have invited them to by offering new products and services to customers, and put their thinking caps on and to come up with some by simply being the best at what they do in terms of thoughts on longer-term radical reform of the system. customer service—whatever it takes. If a retailer takes Meanwhile, we have supported the Portas pilots with market share from another retailer by doing something some £2.3 million. We have supported towns with high new or offering something different, that is the nature vacancy rates through the high street innovation fund of the sector. I assure the hon. Gentleman that many and we have supported the “Love your local market” small retailers are doing that and thriving as a result. Of campaign. course there are things the Government can do to help. We were very pleased to support the first ever small Business rates and the planning system are two of the business Saturday. Just under half of UK consumers most obvious areas where the Government have a genuine were aware of small business Saturday and nearly role to try to help cultivate the spirit of enterprise that £500 million was spent on that day, an average of runs throughout the sector. £33 per person. Almost one person in five said they had I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising these spent at least 50% more than they usually would. The issues this afternoon, which I assure him are central to day was supported by more than 100 local authorities the commitment of the Government and the Department who waived parking charges, including that in the hon. for Business, Innovation and Skills to the retail strategy, Gentleman’s constituency, I am delighted to say. Many and to our refreshing of that strategy each successive of my right hon. and hon. Friends visited small businesses year, working with the British Retail Consortium and on that day, as I did, and saw their commitment and the Association of Convenience Stores. I also assure energy. We were proud to help small business Saturday him that the interests of smaller and local retailers are to be a success. not being squeezed out. 63WH 4 FEBRUARY 2014 Pavements 64WH

Pavements many people. Molehills can be mountains when they are in the way of wheels that cannot get over them. Claire said: 4.54 pm “It isn’t until you experience using a wheelchair around the streets of Cambridge you realise how uneven they are. There’s the Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): It is a pleasure, obvious great big holes, but also small dips with slightly raised Mr Caton, to serve under your chairmanship in this edges that, in my wheelchair I don’t notice until you’ve hit them debate, which someone I was talking to described as a and then the trouble and accidents start.” quintessentially Liberal Democrat debate. That is why She continued: it is a great pleasure to welcome my colleague, the “’Many areas have five or six different pavement types in a Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local small area making for an uneven and dangerous pathway not just Government, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for for wheelchair users, but anyone with mobility difficulties.” Bristol West (Stephen Williams), to respond. I am sure After talking to Claire, I thought I should find out that he shares in Bristol many of the problems we have more, so I arranged to spend a morning in a wheelchair in Cambridge. I know from talking to colleagues that with Claire and two of her colleagues, M.J. Black and the problem arises in many places. The Deputy Leader Naomi Hook, and a range of interested city and county of the House of Commons, my right hon. Friend the councillors. It was hard work—much harder than I had Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), expected. I had had experience of wheelchairs—I used is campaigning to try to improve the pavements in his to be a volunteer with St John Ambulance and had constituency. helped out at a care home—but I had usually pushed a The issue may not sound important, but it is for chair on flat, often carpeted, surfaces. Pushing my own people and communities. Poor pavements can trap people wheelchair through the streets was incredibly energetic, in their homes, making them unable to participate in the and I struggled to understand how people manage to do wider world and the community and society of which so day in, day out. We did not choose particularly tough they would like to be part. Kevin Golding-Williams areas, but went around the city centre. from Living Streets, the national pedestrian charity, Petty Cury, which I had always considered to be a says that reasonably smoothly paved shopping street, was a “the pavement is the most democratic piece of infrastructure a nightmare. I had not realised that because of the camber, government can provide. Whether you’re a pedestrian, cyclist or going in a straight line meant constantly pushing with motorist—you will use the pavement at some point during the one hand while the other hand had nothing to do. That day.” was not due to my incompetence or lack of physical He continues: fitness, because I saw experienced wheelchair users such as Claire getting stuck as they tried to negotiate and “High quality pavements are important for encouraging children deal with poorly designed kerbs and other problems. to walk to school, and for making places better for walking—which can boost footfall and trading by up to 40%.” After a few corners, the pavement would suddenly stop and there would be no ramp to descend, which was a My hon. Friend the Minister might like to talk to the huge problem. Cars or trees may be in the way. A whole Secretary of State, who has often said that the only way series of things make it impossible for people to get by. of advancing trading is not to encourage cars, but to promote cycling and walking, which do a huge amount Claire and I launched a campaign, “Fix Our Pavements”, to promote trading. I hope that he will encourage his which is online at fixourpavements.co.uk, asking people right hon. Friend to change the focus. to identify particular places where there are problems and to sign a petition to get those pavements improved. Bad pavements cause problems for many people, A lot of people have got in touch through that and particularly those in wheelchairs, those with pushchairs, signed the petition online and offline. I have to say, the elderly, those with mobility problems, the visually it is the easiest petition I have ever tried to run. People impaired and many others. They all struggle with a care very much about the issue, whether from personal pavement that others could cope with, but our should experience—a number have experienced being in a be more than something we can all cope with. I have wheelchair for some time or had to use crutches—or heard numerous complaints about the problems caused from their family’s, when there are ageing parents in by poor pavements in Cambridge and throughout the particular. Time after time, people would say, “Yes, my country. Last year, I was contacted by an impressive mother-in-law had a problem with that.” It is a huge resident of Cambridge, Claire Connon, who is a wheelchair issue. user and is tipped to row for Britain in the 2016 Paralympics. We have support from organisations as well, such I hope she will succeed in that and bring home a medal the Whizz-Kidz charity; I am hugely honoured to be for us. If so, she would be the first intravenously-fed one of its parliamentary champions. It provides powered Paralympian. Claire told me that she often falls out of and lightweight wheelchairs and training and support her wheelchair as she travels around Cambridge, although for disabled children, young people and their families. It she is an experienced wheelchair user. When she contacted says that it is passionate about young disabled people me, it was because she had fallen out twice in 10 days, having the freedom, opportunities and skills to fulfil on the second occasion landing on her wrists. That their potential, and we know that the ability to travel could have ended her rowing career before it had had a independently and safely is an enormous part of that. chance to get going. Providing people with a wheelchair does not make sense I had been involved in such matters as a councillor if there is no way of getting around with that wheelchair. and a Member of Parliament, so I knew that there was I applaud the charity’s work, particularly in providing a problem with potholes and other large obstacles, but lightweight wheelchairs, because working with a full, until I met Claire, I had not fully realised how a small heavyweight, normal, NHS standard wheelchair was problem on the pavement could be a huge problem for far too much work for me. 65WH Pavements4 FEBRUARY 2014 Pavements 66WH

This is not only a problem for wheelchair users. On a responded, it found that well over £100 million was paid number of occasions I have been contacted by a visually out in compensation. The estimate of the amount paid impaired constituent who is involved with the Cambridge out in compensation, if we cover all councils and include walk-in cycling liaison group and Cam Sight, a local ongoing cases, is to the order of £300 million. Surely it group that works with people who are visually impaired, would be better to spend £300 million and more fixing to talk about the issues that people with visual impairment the pavements than to pay it out to people after they face. I have tried to find out about some of the challenges have been injured. for blind and visually impaired people trying to go The solution is not only about money—although if around the streets of Cambridge. Back in August, I was my hon. Friend the Minister announced extra money, blindfolded for about 30 minutes and I walked around that would be welcome—but about attitudes and ensuring the city with a guide dog. That gives one a very different that things are done correctly and properly the first sense of what it is like, what the challenges are and what time. I was told of one area, near where I happened to people face. Small things such as cracks and lumps can be door knocking last week, close to the local shops on cause a problem. They can trip people up and get in the Carlton way, where the pavements had been fixed seven way, but so too can big things. Bins left out in the path times. The slabs were picked up seven times, sand was can simply block the pavement, as can cars parked on put underneath, they were relaid, and the sand was pavements. Cars and trucks, of course, are one of the washed away again—and the cycle repeated. Time and very reasons why pavements are cracked in the first again, people were unable to get past the blockage. The place, causing the problems initially. To quote a guide underlying problem, which I think is a blocked drain, dog owner, because Guide Dogs has been very involved was not being solved. A lot of effort was put into trying in the campaign: to fix the surface at great expense, instead of fixing the “My main problem is parked cars etc. on pavements, and also core problem. on the road near junctions where I need to cross. In general, lack We see that in other areas. Work is happening on Mill of safe crossing areas means I rarely go out on my own...I cannot cross safely.” road in Cambridge—it is a wonderful area that I urge you to visit, Mr Caton—to try to repair the pavements That is a serious alarm that we should care about. that are very damaged, affecting an area with a huge Guide Dogs has proposed that the London law that range of successful independent shops. Piero D’Angelico, bans parking on pavements except where explicitly allowed the chair of the Mill road traders association, has done should be expanded to cover the rest of the country as a great job in getting that work to happen, but delivery well, and it should be enforced. Living Streets research lorries are still parking on the pavements, still blocking found that cars parked on the pavement was the single the road as they do so, and still cracking the pavements biggest issue when people asked about clutter in the that have been freshly laid. We have to get out of that streets: 41% of people said that was an issue. We need to cycle. Slabs are laid on sand but that cannot resist the tackle that problem. It would help to clear the ways and weight of those trucks. It will look very nice for a short help not to damage the pavements. time, but then it will start to break down again, I am afraid. There are lots of other obstacles, such as A-boards left out in the path. We have even seen cases involving Similarly, when roadworks are done, reinstatement is safety signs—even though they may be put up for rarely as good as it needs to be, which is one of the sensible reasons, they can cause harm themselves, as in major causes of potholes on the roads, as well as on the the case of Cambridge resident Dr Peter Lawrence. A pavements. I have been talking to the Local Government road sign was put out to warn people that works were Association’s street works task force, which is doing a coming along. He did not see it in the dark, because it piece of work—I was involved at the launch, and it will had been knocked over, and he ended up falling over, report soon—as well as county experts to try to find causing himself significant injury and harm. There are ways of ensuring that that does not happen, because the lots of obstacles, but most of us simply are not aware of constant cycle of fixing things is not an efficient use of them most of the time. When parking, most of us money. We have to try to avoid those scars. would not think about making sure that we are not There are problems with trees, as their roots can blocking off access to a pavement, whether that is about really push up the pavement and make it impossible for somebody is getting on or off it. When leaving a bike by people to get past. Nobody is suggesting cutting down the side of the road, I now always try to ensure that all the trees, but new surfaces, which are much more there is space for people to get by, but not everybody flexible and rubberised, can be used, so that we do not thinks of that—whether it is with their bins or anything get huge mountains where the tree has grown. That else. There is a clear problem and a large number of would be a nice way forward so that people can get by national organisations are keen to see action. Age UK and we still get to keep our trees. and many others have commented on that. There are many other problems that we should try to What is the solution? It is not just money. I absolutely deal with, and I encourage people to report them. My appreciate that times are tough, but money for repairs is colleague, the mayor of Cambridge, Paul Saunders, has needed. It is helpful that the Government have top-sliced now reported more than 500 problems that he has £50 million a year to encourage maintenance of cycleways observed around Cambridge through the wonderful and footpaths. That will be worth a huge amount. In FixMyStreet website. Not all those have been repaired fact, better than that, it can help to avert the costs that yet, but that shows the sort of scale involved. It also are incurred otherwise. Research by Guide Dogs in shows the value of civil society in ensuring that those 2011 asked a range of councils how much they spent on reports can be made, so that people are aware of them. I compensation claims to pedestrians who had injured urge other MPs, councillors, highways engineers and themselves by tripping and falling on badly maintained even Ministers to do what I did with Claire and with the streets between 2006 and 2010. From the people who guide dogs: to experience what it is like to get around in 67WH Pavements4 FEBRUARY 2014 Pavements 68WH

[Dr Julian Huppert] in respect of setting up the campaign that I referred to earlier. Local highway authorities—in his case, a wheelchair or if unable to see. Anyone who tries that Cambridgeshire county council—are responsible for would soon see the new surfaces that they are responsible repairing their highway networks. That includes ensuring for with new eyes and with the sort of determination the repair and renewal of everything from major bridges that I now have to ensure that they are sorted out and to potholes. Of course, there will be a lot of that after improved. That would make a huge difference. the recent, and continuing, wet weather. As part of the One of the top priorities of the Department for service, they are also responsible for maintaining Communities and Local Government is to bring people footways—from removing weeds to repairing or replacing together in strong, united communities. One of the key broken or missing slabs. Central Government help in priorities for Liberal Democrats—part of our constitution that process by providing funding. The Department for —is to champion the freedom, dignity and well-being of Transport leads by providing capital support to authorities individuals. We cannot deliver on either of those priorities through what is known as the highways maintenance if people cannot get about, because the pavements will capital block grant. not let them do so. Between 2011 and 2015—the current spending round— the Department for Transport is providing more than £3.4 billion to local highway authorities for highway 5.9 pm maintenance. The funding includes additional expenditure The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for that has been provided to help assist authorities to deal Communities and Local Government (Stephen Williams): with problems they have encountered on their transport I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge networks, caused by extreme weather events that the (Dr Huppert) on securing the debate this afternoon. He country has encountered since 2010. So it is not just this opened his remarks by saying that the issue is probably year; it is the previous extreme weather events that we one that I am familiar with in Bristol. I listened carefully have experienced as well. to what he was saying; many of his points resonated Over that four-year period, we are providing with me not only in connection with my almost nine Cambridgeshire county council with more than £48 million. years as the Member of Parliament for Bristol West, Perhaps my hon. Friend will interrogate county councillors but more directly with when I was a county councillor and highways officers from the county council on how for the city centre ward in the 1990s. they are spending that £48 million. I am sure he will Such issues were raised constantly by constituents at want to ensure that Cambridge gets its fair share. that time, particularly the obstruction of pavements by shops’ and cafés’ A-boards. Indeed, we had annual, Dr Huppert: The Minister is absolutely right. It is the almost perverse debates when setting the county’s budget— county’s role. He may not be aware that there was a later on, the unitary authority’s budget in Bristol—about scrutiny review of work with pavements led by a Liberal the insurance premium that the council had to pay to Democrat councillor colleague, and I will be taking the deal with accidents on the highway and whether that matter up further with the county council. could be mitigated by extra investment in pavements. Does the Minister accept that there is a question I commend my hon. Friend on his direct approach to about priority? He is right to say that a lot of money researching the topic and on his work with Guide Dogs goes into the maintenance. Does he think that people for the Blind and other charities, and on even sitting in always put pavements—or footways, as he correctly a wheelchair. I also commend him on giving people a calls them—in the same category as roads? There is solution. I had a look at his website before coming into always a lot of discussion about fixing roads or building the debate, and I saw the link to the website that he new roads, but never quite as much attention to the mentioned in his speech: fixourpavements.co.uk. Officials footways, which seem to get neglected. have pointed out to me—I am not suggesting that he changes the domain name; I am sure he has gone to Stephen Williams: My hon. Friend makes an entirely great trouble to secure it— that in highway engineering reasonable point. As well as being the Minister for terms, the correct term is “footways”, because pavements Communities, I am also responsible for the localism are apparently classified as what we would normally agenda. I know he will agree, as a good localist himself, call roads. Whatever he has chosen to call it, I hope his that it is up to local authorities to decide what their website is a great campaign success in Cambridge. It is priorities are. Indeed, the money that Cambridgeshire perhaps a model that other constituency Members will county council gets—£48 million—is not ring-fenced; it be adopting around the country. is up to democratically elected councillors on that authority Walkable neighbourhoods are typically characterised to decide what priority they wish to give to certain by having a range of facilities available to all residents issues and how to spend that particular budget. Of that can be accessed comfortably on foot. Making the course, county councillors, just like Members of Parliament, local environment convenient and attractive to walk in can be responsive to constituents’ views, but that is an can help enhance the vibrancy of a community and issue for Cambridgeshire rather than for my Department. reduce reliance on motor transport. So it is important In June last year, the Government announced, as part that local highway authorities, which are responsible for of the 2013 spending review, that they were committed footways, recognise the importance of keeping them in to providing a further £5.8 billion for local highways good order. maintenance to local authorities in England, outside The Highways Act 1980 states clearly that the footway London, between 2015 and 2021. That equates to is an integral part of the highway. I note with interest £976 million per annum and highlights the Government’s the various initiatives being undertaken by my hon. continuing commitment to help make sure our roads Friend and the 2016 Paralympics hopeful, Claire Connon, and footways are fit for the future. 69WH Pavements4 FEBRUARY 2014 Pavements 70WH

The Department for Transport has recently published pedestrians, including better routes and signage, improved a document that seeks views from highways authorities crossings and new footbridges. such as Cambridgeshire and other key organisations My hon. Friend mentioned dropped kerbs and obstacles on how best to distribute the £5.8 billion to ensure that on the pavement. Under the Disability Discrimination we get the best value for money for the taxpayer. The Act 2005, public authorities have a general duty to document suggests a number of ideas on how the promote equality, and those who design, manage and funding could be allocated to local highway authorities, maintain buildings and public spaces have a specific including one that would set aside part of the funding obligation to ensure that people can play a full part in from the £5.8 billion for the maintenance of cycling and benefiting from and shaping an inclusive built environment. walking facilities. I know that cycling is a huge passion We encourage local authorities to consult representatives of my hon. Friend’s, and I commend him for the work of various user groups to help inform the design of that he has done in promoting safe cycling. local streets. The Government also work with sector organisations, Not all disability relates to difficulties with mobility, including the UK Roads Liaison Group, to encourage so it is important not to overlook the needs of those authorities to help develop asset management plans. with sensory or cognitive impairment, the elderly and Such plans are vital if local authorities are to take young parents with pushchairs. I find it helpful to think proper care of their highway assets. That will help of people not simply as being disabled, which is the authorities ensure that the highway infrastructure, including language often used, but as being disabled by the footways, is maintained efficiently. Asset management environment in which they must operate. Politicians at plans should not be documents that engineers write and all levels must try mitigate those problems as far as then put on a shelf, although I am sure a lot of that goes possible. on; they should provide a clear statement of the local The Department for Transport promotes guidance authority’s highway assets, their condition and the level for practitioners involved in the planning, provision and of service that the council wants to deliver. Again, I approval of new residential streets and modifications to suggest my hon. Friend takes that up with officers on existing ones. The guidance highlights the importance the ground in Cambridgeshire. of street design’s being inclusive to accommodate all My hon. Friend alluded to the many benefits of people regardless of age or ability. It advises on a well-maintained footways and pedestrianisation in relation number of appropriate surface level crossings that might to the environment in Cambridge. I have seen such be provided, where practicable, to connect pedestrian benefits in Bristol. Evidence certainly suggests that networks to one another, particularly where those networks investment in walking and the wider public realm can are separated by heavily trafficked roads. increase economic value and economic activity in local The guidance also explains that street furniture, which areas. A United States study undertaken in 2012 suggests is typically sited on footways, can be a hazard for users that well-planned improvements in the public realm can and suggests that it be minimised wherever possible. In help to boost footfall and trading by up to 40%. In Cambridge, Bristol and other places, I believe that the addition, people on foot also tend to linger longer in local authority might benefit from an audit of its street key shopping areas in towns and cities and spend more furniture—a highway engineers’ term for clutter, which than those who travel by car. denotes signage, railings and so on—to see what might People-friendly streets, including good cycling and be cleared away, with a particular focus on the supposedly walking networks, benefit everyone and provide benefits temporary signs that linger for a long time after the for our health, as well as boosting local economic events that they advertise have happened. People are growth. My hon. Friend mentioned the Olympics and keen to put things up but not always so keen to take Paralympics, and all of us still have different memories them down. of those occasions that inspired us. One of the legacies I turn finally to parking on footways, which my hon. that the Government definitely want to see from those Friend mentioned several times. Cambridge has many events in London is that more children and adults narrow streets in which that will always be a factor. We should get active and become more healthy as a result. fully appreciate that parking on a footway or verge can cause serious problems for pedestrians—particularly That is a cross-Government aspiration. Last August, those in wheelchairs, those who have visual impairments the Department of Health announced a £5 million and parents or grandparents pushing prams and pushchairs. initiative to encourage children and families to exercise Indiscriminate pavement parking may also damage the more. As part of that funding, £1 million is being verge or footway, and the burden of repair costs normally provided simply for walking initiatives, to help people falls on the local highway authority. In some streets, get more active. I understand that Cambridge will benefit parking on footways may be inevitable to maintain free from the funding in the form of a new footway and passage of traffic while meeting the needs of local cycleway route between the train station and Cambridge residents and businesses, and traffic signs are prescribed science park, to which I am sure my hon. Friend is a for this purpose. It would not be possible to get a refuse frequent visitor, as he is one of the few scientists in the wagon, let alone an emergency vehicle, down some of House of Commons. The science park is also a major Bristol’s narrow streets if that were not the case. That is employment centre for the city economy. often left to the common sense of local residents. The Department for Transport has also supported Local authorities outside London have wide-ranging “walk to school” week, which is an excellent opportunity powers under sections 1 and 2 of the Road Traffic for schools to engage with children and parents and to Regulation Act 1984 to make traffic regulation orders encourage walking to school. In addition, the £600 million that prohibit pavement parking on designated lengths local sustainable transport fund includes a range of of highway or over a wide area. Such pavement parking schemes designed to help improve local facilities for bans outside London would need to be appropriately 71WH Pavements4 FEBRUARY 2014 Pavements 72WH

[Stephen Williams] In conclusion, the Government recognise the importance of ensuring that pavements are not obstructed by vehicles, signed so that motorists were aware of the restriction. street furniture or other privately-owned paraphernalia. In areas where the local authority has obtained civil It is not simply down to Government, however; I always parking enforcement powers, civil enforcement officers say as a Liberal that Government and the state are not can enforce pavement parking bans on designated highways always the answer. It is up to all of us to encourage by issuing penalty charge notices. In February 2011, the responsible behaviour, exercise common sense and show then Transport Minister, our hon. Friend the Member basic courtesy for the road needs of others. for Lewes (Norman Baker), wrote to all local authorities Question put and agreed to. outside London prompting them to use their existing powers to prevent people from parking on the pavement 5.24 pm where that was a problem. Sitting adjourned. 15WS Written Statements4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Statements 16WS

to amend their Standing Orders (it is open to councils Written Statements to waive them before they can be permanently amended) so as to make mandatory the practice of recorded votes Tuesday 4 February 2014 at budget meetings. This small but practical reform increases council transparency and accountability over council tax, and highlights the work that councillors do in championing TREASURY their communities and representing local electors. It is the latest step in a series of measures the coalition Public Service Pensions Uprating 2014 Government have taken to help address the cost of living for hard-working people. This Government have announced a further two years of council tax freeze The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander): funding, on top of the average 10% cut in council tax in Legislation governing public service pensions requires real terms that this Government have helped deliver them to be increased annually by the same percentage since May 2010. as additional pensions—state earnings-related pension We will be also publishing shortly the final local and state second pension. Public service pensions will government finance settlement and the council tax therefore be increased from 7 April 2014 by 2.7%, in line referendum threshold for 2014-15. with the annual increase in the consumer prices index up to September 2013, except for those public service pensions which have been in payment for less than a Severe Weather Recovery Scheme year, which will receive a pro rata increase.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Communities and Local Government (Brandon Lewis): I wish to provide a further update for the House on the Department for Communities and Local Government’s Local Accountability and Council Tax work on flood recovery including the £7 million severe weather recovery scheme that I announced in my statement of 17 January, Official Report, column 33WS. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local The severe weather recovery scheme will support and Government (Mr Eric Pickles): Over the coming weeks, speed recovery in affected areas by helping to bridge the councils will be holding their annual budget meetings at gaps between costs covered by the Bellwin scheme, which they will formally take decisions about their insurance and existing central and local government expenditure on local services and their council tax levels obligations and programmes, including the £3.4 billion for the year ahead. These discussions will affect the lives the Department for Transport is already providing to and household budgets of all who live in the council’s English local authorities—outside London—for highways area. maintenance from 2011-15. It is jointly funded by my Local people should be able to see how those they Department and the Department for Transport. have elected to represent them have voted on these Today, the full details of the severe weather recovery critical decisions. However, such decisions could be scheme have been published on the gov.uk website and clearer. the scheme is now open for local authorities to make an A survey by Conservative Way Forward in August application. The deadline for submitting claims to this 2013, based on Freedom of Information Act requests to scheme is 19 February 2014. 340 councils, found that 78% of councils could not or I would like to provide the House with some further would not say how councillors had voted on setting that details of the scheme. We want to be able to give local year’s council tax. Three-quarters of councils which authorities the flexibility to use the money as they see chose not to freeze council tax had not recorded their fit, so the funding will be distributed through a grant votes. paid under section 31 of the Local Government Act The Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014 will 2003. lay the way for greater reporting of council meetings The Department for Communities and Local using digital and social media. To complement this, we Government element of the scheme will provide additional believe that local accountability would be further enhanced support to local authorities where they have incurred, by asking all councils to publish, as a matter of record, or will incur, costs on supporting their communities how each councillor votes on any budget decisions during the recovery phase following the east coast tidal including council tax changes. Indeed, recorded votes surge and the more recent severe weather. Qualifying are the norm for parliamentarians. activities may include one or more of the following: Accordingly, we have written to every council leader offering council tax discounts; providing assistance for making clear our expectation that this year all councils long-term displaced households; placing households in will adopt at their budget meeting the practice of recording temporary accommodation; support payments to flood in the minutes of the meeting how each member has affected households; the purchase or provision of new voted on the budget and amendments to the budget. household items for those affected; provision of temporary To facilitate this, we laid before Parliament the Local caravans; use of rest centres; and tourism impacts. Authorities (Standing Orders) (England) (Amendment) The Department for Transport element is a capital Regulations 2014 which make provision requiring councils grant scheme and the funding will be distributed by 17WS Written Statements4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Statements 18WS formula to those local highway authorities who can The review concludes that the functions performed clearly demonstrate that they have suffered damage to by AGoMM are still required; however, it should be their local highway assets. delivered as a public sector working group rather than Full details of the scheme can be found at: https:// the current model of an advisory non-departmental www.gov.uk/government/publications/severe-weather- public body (NDPB). The review also looked at the recovery-scheme governance arrangements for the body in line with We are considering the response and recovery support guidance on good corporate governance set out by needs for the Somerset local authorities separately. the Cabinet Office. The report makes a couple of recommendations in this respect, mainly around the Furthermore, I would like to inform the House that I publication of unclassified information about the work am chairing a series of round-table discussions with of AGoMM and its membership; these recommendations local authority leaders from impacted authorities. To will be implemented shortly. date I have met with leaders from East Anglia, Kent, Yorkshire, authorities in the south of England and the Thames valley and over the next few weeks I intend to The full report of the review of AGoMM can be meet with leaders from the north of England, the west found on the gov.uk website and copies have been country and Somerset. I will also be meeting with placed in the Library of the House. members of the voluntary community sector to understand the contribution they make to a multi-agency response in these circumstances. My Department will make further announcements in due course. HOME DEPARTMENT

DEFENCE EU Readmission Agreement (Azerbaijan) Advisory Group on Military Medicine (Triennial Review) The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper): The Government have decided not to opt in at this stage The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence to the draft Council decisions concerning the signature (Anna Soubry): On 5 December 2012, Official Report, and conclusion of the agreement between the European columns 57-58WS, my predecessor the right hon. Member Union and the Republic of Azerbaijan on the readmission for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) announced in of persons residing without authorisation (European Parliament through a written ministerial statement, the Union Document Nos. 15493/13, COM(2013) 745; 15494/13, commencement of the triennial review of the Advisory COM(2013) 744). Group on Military Medicine (AGoMM). I am now pleased to announce the completion of the review. There is little illegal migration from Azerbaijan to the AGoMM plays an important role providing independent, UK and we have no operational problems with returns specialist advice to Ministers and senior officials on the which an EURA would help to resolve. It would be policy for medical issues within medical force protection, possible for the UK to seek to participate in the agreement and for clinical treatments used on military operations. post adoption if these circumstances were to change. 1P Petitions4 FEBRUARY 2014 Petitions 2P

Wherefore your petitioner prays that your honourable Petitions House take measures to ensure that the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lombard Vehicle Management are Tuesday 4 February 2014 investigated for their lack of concern for workers wellbeing and rights, taking particular notice of the de facto public ownership of both companies and the duty of OBSERVATIONS companies, whether in the public eye or otherwise and further prays that Parliament urges the Government to revisit the issue of employment rights to ensure that disputes between employers and employees are not BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS weighted so heavily in favour of employers and further prays that the House urges the Government to request Employment Practices at Lombard Vehicle that the companies look again at the issue of compensation. Management And your petitioner, as in duty bound, will ever pray, The Humble petition of Anna Kelly, a former employee &c.—[Presented by John Hemming, Official Report, of Lombard Vehicle Management, 19 November 2013; Vol. 553, c. 19P.] Sheweth that Lombard Vehicle Management was [P001298] owned in part by the Royal Bank of Scotland; the practice and culture of management at Lombard Vehicle Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, Management was of a very poor standard; further that Innovation and Skills: this culture included bullying practices by management Whilst sympathising with the situation in which the and that mechanisms in place to support staff through petitioner has found herself, individual employment human resources failed. disputes are ultimately matters for the tribunals and the Further that examples of these failings and culture courts to decide and they are not open to Government include the fact that targets set for the Petitioner in intervention. her role were met, a target of 98%, verifiable through Where there are disputes in the workplace, such as management records, yet she was criticised for failing to those described by the petitioner, the Government are achieve these targets and placed on an action plan; keen to see them resolved at the earliest opportunity to further that her sexuality and character were referred to avoid the cost and stress to both parties of formal in meetings in a negative way by management; further procedures and, ultimately, perhaps going to tribunal. that meetings of a grievance meeting were distorted; Where possible, we want to see the employment relationship further that the Petitioner’s salary was suspended without is preserved. just cause or reason three days into a period of sick Where problems cannot be resolved using internal leave which was in breach of her contract; further that procedures, third parties may be able to help to resolve a the Petitioner’s Head of Department received advice dispute. Under mediation, for example, which is a voluntary that the Petitioner should not have had her pay suspended process, an independent and impartial third party helps and refused to discuss this with the Petitioner or respond two or more people in a dispute to try to reach an to requests to have the pay suspension lifted, despite agreement. being an employee of nine years with good attendance and only 10 days of absence due to sickness that calendar ACAS has a statutory role to promote the resolution year. of claims, or prospective claims, to an employment tribunal. Where no claim has yet been submitted, this Further that it is of concern that the union involved service is referred to as “pre-claim conciliation”. It is a in this dispute was unwilling to take the aforementioned free service available to employers and employees in companies to tribunal because of the disparity between appropriate circumstances, where they have been unable the union’s resources and the aforementioned companies to resolve the dispute by other means (such as internal despite the Union having advised the Petitioner; further grievance, discipline or appeal procedures). It is delivered that the Petitioner was badly treated; further that the via a network of ACAS conciliators across Great Britain. Human Resources department noted on the Petitioner’s file that she wished to withdraw her grievance, which The ACAS helpline advisers will be able to identify was not the case. whether a particular case may be suitable for referral to Further that it is of particular concern that the the pre-claim conciliation service, and if so, will put the aforementioned companies saw fit to hold two grievance parties in touch with a conciliator. meetings, one in a local public house and another at a More information on options for resolving disputes hotel bar at Birmingham Airport, both public places; can be found on the ACAS website at: www.acas.org.uk. further that the Petitioner’s pay was withheld on a However, where disputes cannot be resolved without second occasion for a week due to her team leader recourse to tribunal, it is committed to ensuring that the holding on to a medical certificate; further that false system operates as efficiently and promptly (for all statements about the Petitioner’s attendance, attitude to parties) as possible. staff and targets met were placed on the Petitioner’s HR file and that Lombard Vehicle Management failed to The gov.uk website provides information about how comply with their own sickness absence policy and to apply to an employment tribunal. dignity at work policy. The petitioner also raises issues in relation to bullying Further that this culture and the failings by Lombard and harassment. The Government make it clear that Vehicle Management resulted in the Petitioner taking bullying and harassment have no place in today’s workplace voluntary redundancy in order to escape the workplace environment and are unacceptable wherever they occur. environment and bullying nature of her management. The Government strongly condemns such behaviour 3P Petitions4 FEBRUARY 2014 Petitions 4P and believe employees should be able to work without There was a social worker who was interrogated by both fear of encountering bullying from their employers, sides who was asked whether the grandmother behaved fellow employees or anyone else. appropriately with her daughter in the contact centre Legislation provides safeguards for employees against and the social worker said “yes she did”. The next harassment in the workplace. This covers harassment question was whether she would behave appropriately on the grounds of sex (including sexual harassment). in her own house. The social worker said that she could Race, Disability, Religion or Belief or Sexual Orientation not say that she would and hence the court decided not and Age. In addition, protection is provided by the to place the child with the grandmother. Furthermore Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 (where the grandparents were criticised for approaching the intentional harassment is made a criminal offence), media in England. and the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 (where In a second case the family had signed documentation harassment is made a criminal offence and victims have that they did not understand thereby giving their children a right to damages). Employment law is complex and to the local authority and this documentation was used the Government, through the Advisory, Conciliation to get the children adopted. and Arbitration Service (ACAS), has a national helpline In other cases really flimsy evidence is accepted and offering advice to both employers and employees: 0845 parents are misled by their legal advisors into accepting 747 4747. the case against them because they may then get the I can assure the petitioner that we know that when an children returned. The parents then find that the children employment relationship breaks down it can be traumatic are adopted using the fact that the parents had accepted for both the employee and the employer. So we are the case against them as evidence. implementing a range of measures designed to encourage Additionally a mother was forced to sign documents employees and employers to talk to each other before a disowning Slovak nationality for her child on the basis relationship irrevocably breaks down. that otherwise she would be imprisoned. The introduction of Early Conciliation next April will build on the success of the ACAS’pre-claim conciliation The Petitioners therefore request that the House of process. All prospective claimants will have to submit Commons establishes an inquiry into the quality of the details of their claim to ACAS before going to an evidence accepted in family court proceedings. Employment Tribunal. Early Conciliation will help And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by John employers and employees resolve their problems early, Hemming, Official Report, 14 October 2013; Vol. 568, through clear communication with the help of ACAS c. 5P.] conciliators. We also intend to introduce Financial Penalties [P001228] in April next year. This will give tribunals the discretion Observations from the Secretary of State for Justice: to levy a penalty of up to £5,000 on employers who commit an aggravated breach of employment law. Financial Ministers cannot comment on or intervene in cases Penalties are designed to target employer behaviour that are, or have been, before the courts, whether in this that is malicious, deliberate or negligent. country or abroad, because to do so would undermine As our reforms are being implemented, we will the key constitutional principle that the judiciary is work not only to ensure that employers understand the independent of Government. new rules but also how to get the best out to their In making any decision on the upbringing of a child, staff. ACAS will have a strong role in this, ranging from the court in England and Wales must treat the welfare one-to-one support on the telephone to online tools of the child as its paramount consideration. Judges and guides. Officials are therefore working closely with sitting in the Family Courts in England and Wales will experts from ACAS to develop a better understanding take into account all the information available to them of how we can support employers to get the best out of in each case before arriving at an independent judgment. their staff whilst maintaining a workforce with high Where a person who is a party to the court proceedings levels of wellbeing. disagrees with a judge’s decision, they can seek independent legal advice about whether they have grounds for an appeal. JUSTICE If a person who is a party to the court proceedings Evidence Accepted in Family Courts has concerns about a judge’s personal conduct, they can The Petition of an interpreter working in England, make a complaint to the Judicial Conduct Investigations Declares that the interpreter works in family court Office. proceedings translating for families who speak Czech The legal profession is independent and self-regulating, and Slovak. and there are independent regulatory authorities in She has been shocked at the way in which a judge was place to address any allegations of misconduct, Government partial in proceedings and the evidence that was accepted Ministers are not able to comment on the allegations which would never be accepted anywhere else in courts. against legal advisers set out in the petition. 135W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 136W

Danny Alexander: The Government and the Northern Written Answers to Ireland Executive are working closely together to implement the ’Building a Prosperous and United Community’ Questions package announced in June 2013. Most recently, the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury and the Northern Ireland Minister for Finance hosted an Infrastructure Tuesday 4 February 2014 Investment Seminar at Titanic Belfast on 23 January this year. The next formal update on the package will be published in summer 2014. TREASURY Income Tax: Warrington Air Passenger Duty Helen Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people in (a) Warrington and (b) Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chancellor of the Warrington North constituency paid the top rate of tax Exchequer (1) how much revenue is lost annually as a in each of the last five years. [186051] result of the exemption of transfer passengers from air passenger duty; [185976] Mr Gauke: Data on the number of additional rate tax (2) how much revenue he expects air passenger duty payers at parliamentary constituency levels are not published. to yield in the current and next year. [185977] Population projections at constituency level would Nicky Morgan: The Treasury has not estimated the not be reliable or statistically robust. revenue yield from applying Air Passenger Duty to Procurement passengers that connect in the UK to a final destination. The Office of Budget Responsibility’s current receipts Chris Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the forecast was published as Table B3 in the autumn Exchequer what proportion of his Department’s overall statement 2013. The Air Passenger Duty forecast for procurement spend for each of the last three financial 2013-14 is £3.1 billion and £3.2 billion in 2014-15. The years was spent (a) in joint procurement exercises with table will be updated in the 2014 Budget report. other Departments and (b) shared between different organisations within the same Department group. Annuities [185400] Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the Nicky Morgan: The information requested is not Exchequer what steps he is taking to ensure that recorded separately and would require analysis of financial pension providers that send out default annuity offers information from across HM Treasury Group; this do so on a more competitive basis. [185552] could be done only at disproportionate cost. HM Treasury Group participates in Government-wide Mr Gauke: The Government is committed to making joint procurement exercises, which are led by the Crown sure that the annuity market is working in the best Commercial Service (CCS—formally the Government interests of consumers and that consumers are empowered Procurement Service, GPS). This work supports the to exercise competitive pressures on the market so they development of frameworks and contracts for use by can get the best rates possible. Government Departments relating to common goods As a result of a joint working group set up by the and services. Government in 2011, the Association of British Insurers (ABI)’s Code of Conduct on Retirement Choices, which Chris Evans: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer came into effect in March 2013, now requires all-members for each of the last three financial years how much and to provide better information to consumers to help what proportion of his Department’s procurement was them shop around on the open market for the best conducted using e-procurement tools; and what the annuity to meet their needs. A full copy of the Code of value of such contracts was. [185405] Conduct can be found on the ABI’s website: Nicky Morgan: The information requested is not held https://www.abi.org.uk/Insurance-and-savings/Products/ centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate Pensions/Your-pension-in-retirement/Code-of-Conduct-on- Retirement-Choices cost. The ABI has committed to assess the effectiveness of In July 2013 HM Treasury’s procurement functions the code on consumer behaviour this year. transferred to the Crown Commercial Service (CCS— formally the Government Procurement Service, GPS) In addition, the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) who in return provide a managed procurement service. is conducting a thematic review of the annuities market. CCS use a range of e-Procurement tools. These include: The review will address: the level of detriment to consumers An e-Sourcing suite—Used to run further competitions under from not shopping around; where such detriment is framework agreements, to run procurements that must be published most likely to occur; and whether firms create barriers in the Official Journal of the European Union, and to undertake that restrict or inhibit consumers from shopping around. industry consultations and buyer surveys for early market engagement. Economic Situation: Northern Ireland Government e-Marketplace—Provides easy access to centralised deals via online catalogues (CCS’s framework agreements and other Departments’ contracts) and allows customers to place Naomi Long: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer orders; provides an optional facility for complete transactional what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the and integration functionality with e-Invoicing. implementation of the economic package announced Dynamic Marketplace—Used by customers to tender for non- for Northern Ireland in June 2013. [185951] complex and low-value procurements below the OJEU threshold. 137W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 138W

Re-employment Mr Gauke: Estimates of revenue raised from Stamp Duty Land Tax (SDLT) for residential and non-residential Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Chancellor of the properties, by Stamp Duty consideration band, have Exchequer how many staff who have been made redundant been published by HMRC as ’UK Stamp Tax Statistics or retired from his Department have subsequently been 2012-13’ (Table 3.1, previously known as table 15.3) and re-employed by his Department since May 2010. can be found at: [185570] http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/stamp-duty.htm Total SDLT receipts for 2013 can be found in the Nicky Morgan: No civil servants who have left receiving publication ’Tax and NICs receipts: statistics table’ at: an exit package or retired from HM Treasury in the http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/receipts.htm#2 period requested have been re-employed by HM Treasury. It is not yet possible to provide an estimate of the amount raised separately for residential and non-residential Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013 properties for the whole of 2013. Estimates for 2013-14 are due to be released on 30 September 2014. Graham Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the effect of State Retirement Pensions the provisions of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2012 on the amount of VAT collected from the metal recycling Mr Hoban: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer industry. [185960] if he will estimate the cost to the Exchequer of exempting the state pension from income tax. [185136] Mr Gauke: No estimate has been made. Nicky Morgan: Exempting the state pension from Severn River Crossing income tax would cost around £6.7 billion in 2013-14. The estimate takes no account of possible behavioural Jessica Morden: To ask the Chancellor of the impacts, which might be significant, and excludes any Exchequer how much additional revenue has accrued impact on benefit entitlement. to the Exchequer from Severn River Crossings plc to Estimates are based on the 2010-11 Survey of Personal date as a result of (a) the phasing out of the industrial Incomes, projected to 2013-14 using economic assumptions buildings allowance and (b) VAT payments since the consistent with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s introduction of VAT on tolls. [185730] March 2013 economic and fiscal outlook. Mr Gauke: The information requested is not available Tax Evasion due to statutory rules on taxpayer confidentiality. Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Stamp Duties how much HM Revenue and Customs has spent on advertising on Facebook for the purposes of John Stevenson: To ask the Chancellor of the preventing tax evasion in the current financial year. Exchequer how much revenue was raised from stamp [185440] duty for properties worth (a) up to £250,000, (b) between £250,000 and £500,000 and (c) over £500,000 Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs has not spent in 2012-13. [184221] any money on advertising on Facebook as part of our advertising campaign to prevent tax evasion since April Mr Gauke: Revenue from Stamp Duty Land Tax 2013. (SDLT) is published by HMRC in National Statistics publications on the following webpage: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/stamp-duty.htm TRANSPORT Revenue from the price brackets asked for in the question can be found in the following table or by Biofuels following the link: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/statistics/stamp-duty/stamp-tax- Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for sep13.xls Transport what steps he is taking to ensure the and looking at sheet 7, rows 88-98. continued availability of zero or low content biofuel at five per cent or below for use by owners of older motor Between vehicles; and if he will make a statement. [R] [185399] Up to £250,000 and Over £250,000 £500,000 £500,000 Mr Goodwill: Decisions on whether to supply petrol Yield attributable to 945 1,765 4,195 with zero ethanol content are a commercial matter for residential and non individual fuel suppliers. The Motor Fuel (Composition residential land and and Content) Regulations 1999 set the maximum property (£ million) permissible ethanol content of petrol. Following consultation, the Motor Fuel (Composition John Stevenson: To ask the Chancellor of the and Content) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 came Exchequer how much revenue was raised from stamp into force on 1 January to ensure that petrol with no duty on (a) commercial and (b) residential properties more than 5% ethanol content remains available until in 2013. [184222] the end of 2016. 139W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 140W

Driving: Licensing Harrow Observer Group Islington Tribune Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for Kilburn Times Transport pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member Leamington Spa Courier for Angus of 16 January 2014, Official Report, column Lichfield Mercury 643W, on driving: licensing, what proportion of driving London Gazette licences surrendered voluntarily following a health- Manchester Evening News related incident were restored within the 90 day target Metro (Evening Standard) in each of the last five years. [186009] Solihull News Stephen Hammond: The information the hon. Member South Bucks Star has requested is not readily available. I have asked Sutton Coldfield Observer officials at the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency to Tamworth Herald collate the required information and I will write to the The Times hon. Member when it is available. I will place a copy of Uxbridge Gazette Series that letter in the Library of the House. Watford Observer High Speed 2 Railway Line Railways: Finance

Mrs Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the schedule and costs were of (a) the Transport what proportion of the overall Network original advertising campaign for the consultation on Grant was intended to be used for subsidising track the High Speed 2 phase one environmental statement access charges in each year from 2008-09 to 2012-13. and (b) the advertising campaigns following the ruling [186110] of the Standing Orders Committee to extend the consultation period. [186143] Stephen Hammond: Network Rail’s funding comes from two main sources: Government grant and track Mr Goodwill: In accordance with Standing Order 10 access charges. The amount of funding is set by the for the House of Commons, notices have to be published independent Office of Rail Regulation as part of their for two consecutive weeks following deposit of a hybrid five-yearly Periodic Review of Network Rail’s outputs Bill in newspapers circulating along the line of route, as and funding. well as the relevant Gazettes. Following deposit of the Government pays Network Grant direct to Network HS2 hybrid Bill, newspaper notices were placed in the Rail. Track access charges are paid directly to Network newspapers listed as follows in each of the week’s Rail by the Train Operators. As such the two revenue commencing 25 November and 2 December, at a cost of streams are separate and Network Grant is not used for £1,625,412.07. This approach follows established practice subsidising track access charges. for other hybrid Bills. The House of Commons and House of Lords Standing Rescue Services: Belfast Orders Committees decided to extend the consultation period and required a notice to be placed in the same Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for newspapers. This was done on 24 January for The Transport how many (a) full-time and (b) part-time Times, and the week commencing 27 January for the staff were employed at the Belfast Maritime Rescue other newspapers at a cost of £294,600.81. Coordination Centre in each of the last five years. In addition, the consultation closing dates were advertised [185906] on the Department for Transport and HS2 Ltd websites. They were also covered on a range of news and campaign Stephen Hammond: The process to compile data in group websites. There was no cost associated with this respect of how many (a) full-time and (b) part-time advertising. staff employed at the Belfast Maritime Rescue Coordination Newspaper Centre in each of the last five years involves reconciliation from multiple sources. Banbury Guardian I have asked officials at the Maritime and Coastguard Bicester Advertise Agency to compile the information and I will write with Birmingham Mail the full answer once this information has been collated Buckingham & Winslow Advertise and a copy will be placed in Libraries of the House. Bucks Advertiser Bucks Advertiser & Examiner Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Bucks Herald Transport how many times the Belfast Maritime Camden New Journal Rescue Coordination Centre was staffed at below risk assessed levels in January 2014. [185907] Cannock Chase Chronicle Coventry Evening Telegraph Stephen Hammond: During January 2014 Belfast Daventry Express Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) was Ealing & Acton Gazette staffed below risk assessed levels on six occasions out of Edinburgh Gazette 62 shifts. Fulham & Hammersmith Chronicle Where there are specific issues at a MRCC Her Hampstead & Highgate Express Majesty’s Coastguard is using the current long established 141W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 142W pairing arrangements between MRCCs. This enables Norman Baker [holding answer 30 January 2014]: each MRCC to be connected to at least one other The Coalition Commitment to work to reduce the MRCC which is available to provide mutual support. number of animals in scientific research is not concerned with just baseline numbers which are influenced by a Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for range of extraneous factors. Instead it encompasses the Transport how many (a) full-time and (b) part-time replacement, refinement and reduction (3R’s) more broadly, staff are currently employed at the Belfast Maritime putting them at the heart of a science led approach. Rescue Coordination Centre. [186019] Our Delivery Plan will shortly be published and will set out how the Government is supporting and encouraging Stephen Hammond: There are currently (a) 25 full-time these advances and the programmes and policies through and (b) 2 part-time staff employed at Belfast Maritime which Government will continue to deliver its commitment. Rescue Coordination Centre. The consequence will be accelerated take up of the 3R’s, both domestically and internationally set on the Severn River Crossing tenets of good science, good animal welfare and good for the UK and economic growth. Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Our commitment to reduce the use of animals is Transport what the current estimated end date is of the being delivered through a science-led programme led by Severn River Crossings concession. [185728] the National Centre for Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Research (NC3Rs), an Mr Goodwill: The Severn River Crossings concession organisation with a strong record in reducing animal is expected to end in 2018. use. The Coalition Government is proud to support the work of the NC3Rs which is an internationally recognised Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for leader in the field. Transport what recent estimate he has made of the level of the outstanding debt following the end of the Severn I also welcome the Technology Strategy Board’s recent announcement of its decision to invest £4 million in River Crossings concession. [185729] feasibility studies into how non-animal technologies Mr Goodwill: The accumulated costs owed to can be further developed and applied to improve product Government that need be recovered after the end of the development across a range of industries. concession are estimated to be £88 million. Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency Home Department how many cats and dogs were used in experiments in the UK (a) in the last 12 months and (b) in the year ended January 2009; and what steps her Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Department is taking to ensure that the use of cats and Transport what the total budget of the Vehicle and dogs in experiments is phased out. [185490] Operator Standards Agency was in each year from 2009 to date; and what his estimate is of the budget in Norman Baker: The publication ″The Annual Statistics 2015. [185908] of Scientific Procedures on Living Animals″ is published Stephen Hammond: The information requested is shown annually and copies are available in the House Library. in the following table. In 2012, the last year for which statistics are available, 3,214 dogs and 202 cats were used in scientific procedures. £ million During 2008, 4,271 dogs and 176 cats were used in Actual From scientific procedures. business The use of animals in scientific research is not allowed plan if there is an alternative that does not use animals and VOSA 2014- budget 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 151 the Government strongly supports the development and use of non-animal alternatives. Dogs, cats and Income 190.2 190.7 188.6 182.9 178.5 n/a some other species are given special protection by the Expenses (204.8) (179.4) (171.9) (169.0) (174.5) n/a Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 and may only Surplus/ (14.5) 11.3 16.7 13.8 4.0 n/a be used if no other species is suitable or it is not (Deficit) practicable to obtain animals of any other species that 1 We are unable to provide the figures for 2014-15 as they have not yet are suitable for the purposes of the relevant programme been finalised. of work. Dogs, where used at all, are primarily used in pharmaceutical research and development, or in HOME DEPARTMENT pharmaceutical safety and efficacy evaluations. They are also used, when no other species is suitable, in the Animal Experiments evaluation of cardiovascular and cardiorespiratory problems in humans. Such work contributes to advances in human Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the healthcare. Dogs are also used in the development of Home Department whether she intends to include a veterinary medicines and techniques. target for the number of scientific experiments conducted Cats are primarily used in the development of veterinary on animals in her Department’s strategy for reducing medicines and techniques, and in neurological research. the number of animals used in medical experimentation. Much of the veterinary research is for the benefit of [185281] cats 143W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 144W

In 2010, the Coalition Government made a commitment recommendation for type approval of mobile drug testing to work to reduce the use of animals in scientific devices can be made as close as possible to the introduction research in ″Coalition: our programme for Government″. of the new drug driving offence planned for summer The Coalition Commitment is not concerned with 2014. just baseline numbers, but encompasses the replacement, refinement and reduction (3R’s) more broadly, putting Licensing Laws them at the heart of a science led approach. We will publish a delivery plan shortly that will set Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the out how the Government is supporting and encouraging Home Department which NHS bodies have replaced these advances and the programmes and policies through primary care trusts as responsible authorities for the which Government will continue to deliver its commitment. purpose of determining a premises license application; The consequence will be accelerated take up of the and when she plans to update the guidance given to 3R’s, both domestically and internationally set on the local authorities and potential applicants on the tenets of good science, good animal welfare and good .gov.uk website to reflect the fact that primary care for the UK and economic growth. trusts no longer exist. [185911]

Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for the Norman Baker: The Statutory Guidance issued under Home Department what steps she is taking to release section 182 of the Licensing Act 2003 was revised in more information pertaining to the conducting of June 2013. This latest version is available on the GOV.UK animal experiments in the UK; and if she will make a website and states that the each local authority’s Director statement. [185572] of Public Health in England (DPH) or Local Health Board in Wales are responsible authorities under the Norman Baker: We are actively reviewing section 24 licensing Act 2003. which provides for the protection of confidential information provided in connection with our regulatory Police Custody activities under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986. A breach of section 24 can result in criminal sanctions. However, Section 24 is now out of step with Mr Charles Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for government policy on openness and transparency and the Home Department pursuant to the oral answer of with the approach taken in other legislation, such as the 27 January 2014, Official Report, column 638, on police Freedom of Information Act 2000. recruitment, if she will place the letter to HM Inspector The challenge is to design a more flexible framework of Constabulary on an all-force inspection on the that will provide greater transparency to assist public welfare of vulnerable people in custody with particular understanding whilst protecting proprietary rights and reference to people with mental health conditions and intellectual property. people from Black and minority ethnic backgrounds in the Library. [185207] Drugs: Screening Mrs May [holding answer 30 January 2014]: Iam Sir James Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for the aware of the hon. Gentleman’s campaign to prevent Home Department (1) when he plans to introduce deaths in police custody, ensure the welfare of vulnerable saliva drug testing kits for drugs other than cannabis; people in custody, and improve the experience of loved and if he will make a statement; [185811] ones when people do, sadly, die in custody. As the Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims, my (2) what approval process will be followed for the use right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian of saliva drug testing kits for drugs other than cannabis; Green), told the House on Monday, I wrote to the Chief and if she will make a statement. [185795] HM Inspector of Constabulary on 24 January. I asked the Inspectorate to undertake a specific thematic inspection Norman Baker: The Road Traffic Act 1988 stipulates in 2014-15 on the welfare of vulnerable people in police that drug testing devices must be of a type approved by custody including, but not limited to, those with mental the Secretary of State. The type approval testing process health problems and people from black and minority involves detailed laboratory evaluation to ensure that ethnic backgrounds. I am placing a copy of my letter in devices meet the stringent technical requirements laid the Library of the House, and I commend my hon. out in published specifications. These specifications define Friend for his work. the requirements for the construction of Preliminary Drug Testing Devices for both station-based and mobile drug testing devices. Secondment In 2012, a device was type approved for use in police stations for the detection of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC, Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the one of the psychoactive components of cannabis). In Home Department how many secondments of staff in 2013, a specification for mobile drug testing devices was her Department (a) to and (b) from the private sector released, and manufacturers were invited to submit have taken place in the last three months; and in each mobile devices for consideration for type approval. such case what the name of the organisation concerned Work is ongoing towards type approval of mobile drug and the duration of the secondment was. [185928] testing devices that will test for cannabis, cocaine and the main metabolite of cocaine, benzoylecgonine. It is James Brokenshire: No staff have been seconded into anticipated that laboratory testing of devices will commence the Home Office from the private sector or out to the in the next three months. This is to ensure that a private sector during the last three months. 145W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 146W

ATTORNEY-GENERAL (d) Domestic violence No further action Total pre- Legal Aid Scheme charge Number Percentage decisions

Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General 2006-07 18,142 27.2 66,639 what the policy is of the Crown Prosecution Service 2007-08 20,088 27.1 74,065 and the Serious Fraud Office on whether to proceed 2008-09 20,475 25.5 80,423 with prosecutions of defendants who have not been 2009-10 24,274 26.6 91,184 able to find counsel to represent them under the new 2010-11 27,132’ 26.8 101,242 fee regime for very high-cost criminal cases. [185900] 2011-12 24,581 25.8 95,117 2012-13 23,518 26.7 88,110 The Solicitor-General: The policy of the Crown Note: The CPS defines domestic violence as any threatening behaviour, Prosecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office is to violence or abuse (psychological, physical, sexual, financial or emotional) proceed. between those who are or have been intimate partners or family members, regardless of gender or sexuality. Family members include mother, father, son, daughter, sister, and grandparents, whether directly Prosecutions related, in laws or step family. Royal Bank of Scotland Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how many and what proportion of decisions to take no Paul Flynn: To ask the Attorney-General how many further action referred to the Crown Prosecution bankers (a) formerly and (b) currently employed by Service by the police concerned (a) indictable-only the Royal Bank of Scotland are being investigated for offences, (b) serious sexual offences excluding child (i) fraud and (ii) other criminal acts in respect of (A) abuse, (c) child abuse and (d) domestic violence in the authorisation of the misselling of financial products each year since 2006. [185446] and (B) Libor rate manipulation. [185836]

The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service The Solicitor-General: It would not be appropriate to (CPS) does not maintain a central record of the number give this information while investigations are ongoing. of referrals made to the CPS by the police for specific offences or offence type, such as sexual offences or RSPCA indictable only offences. The CPS does identify, by way of monitoring flags, Karl McCartney: To ask the Attorney-General the number of pre-charge decisions, including decisions whether he was consulted about the choice of Mr Stephen to take no further action, in respect of cases flagged as Wooler to head the investigation into the RSPCA’s involving allegations of child abuse and domestic violence, prosecution policy. [186016] since statutory charging was fully rolled out across England and Wales in April 2006. The Solicitor-General: Neither the Attorney-General or I were consulted about the choice of Stephen Wooler The following tables show, for each financial year to conduct an investigation into the RSPCA’s prosecution’s from April 2006, the number and proportion of decisions policy, although his name was suggested to the RSPCA to take no further action in cases flagged as child abuse 1 by my officials as a person who may be appropriate to and domestic violence : conduct such a review given his previous role as Chief 1 The CPS collects data to assist in the effective management of Inspector of Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service its prosecution functions. The CPS does not collect data which Inspectorate. constitute official statistics as defined in the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007. These data have been drawn from the CPS’s administrative IT system, which (as with any large scale recording Serious Fraud Office system) is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. The figures are provisional and subject to change as more information Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General is recorded by the CPS. what steps he is taking to monitor whether the Serious (c) Child abuse Fraud Office complies with its obligation under the No further action Human Rights Act 1998 when executing requests for Total pre- mutual legal assistance. [185588] charge Number Percentage decisions The Solicitor-General: The decision to accept a request 2006-07 4,702 40.9 11,485 for mutual legal assistance is one for the UK Central 2007-08 4,691 40.6 11,542 Authority in the Home Office taking into account all 2008-09 4,283 38.6 11,094 applicable domestic and international law obligations (including human rights obligations) and any wider 2009-10 4,776 37.6 12,691 policy issues which may apply. 2010-11 4,735 36.4 13,015 2011-12 3,948 34.0 11,610 In addition, the Attorney-General and I regularly 2012-13 2,987 31.8 9,379 discuss a wide range of issues with the director of the Note: Serious Fraud Office (SFO) and are assured that compliance The CPS definition of child abuse covers any case where the victim with the SFO’s obligations under the Human Rights was under 18 years of age at the time of the offence. Act 1998 is integral to the work of his office. 147W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 148W

Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General system) is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 30 January The figures are provisional and subject to change as more information 2014, how much of the £19 million additional resources is recorded by the CPS. for the Serious Fraud Office has been ear-marked for Witnesses specific investigations or prosecutions. [185994] Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how The Solicitor-General: It is not in the public interest many victims and witnesses were referred to Crown to specify what resources the Serious Fraud Office Prosecution Service-run witness care units in (a) each intends to dedicate to each case. year from 2008-09 to 2012-13 and (b) 2013-14. [185801] Sexual Offences: Prosecutions The Solicitor-General: The following table shows the number of civilian victims and witnesses supported by Emily Thornberry: To ask the Attorney-General how joint police/Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) witness many prosecutions there were following (a) kerb care units (WCUs) in cases where a Not Guilty plea has crawling, (b) brothel keeping and (c) controlling been entered. prostitution in each of the last six years; and how many such cases were reported to the Crown Prosecution Victims Witnesses Total Service by the Police for a charging decision. [185442] 2008-09 137,015 356,509 493,524 The Solicitor-General: The Crown Prosecution Service 2009-10 151,445 357,367 508,812 (CPS) does not maintain a central record of the number 2010-11 165,664 373,618 539,282 of cases referred to it by the police for a pre-charge 2011-12 160,559 358,896 519,455 decision where the alleged offences were either kerb 2012-13 142,107 351,231 493,338 crawling, keeping a brothel or controlling prostitution. 2013-14 (April to 99,983 237,597 337,580 To obtain details of the number of cases referred for a December 2013) charging decision for these offences would require a manual exercise incurring disproportionate cost. These data have been obtained from the Witness 1 Management System (WMS), which is a management The records held by the CPS identify the number of information system that nearly all WCUs use. The offences (not defendants) in which a prosecution exceptions are the WCUs in North Yorkshire and Kent, commenced and reached a first hearing in magistrates as they use different management information systems courts. In each of the last six years the number of and the data are not collected centrally, and they are offences prosecuted by the CPS, in which the prosecution therefore not included in the data set out in the table. commenced and reached a first hearing is detailed in the following table. The CPS collects data to assist in the effective management of its prosecution functions. The CPS 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 does not collect data which constitute official statistics as defined in the Statistics and Registration Service Act (a) Solicit another 534 365 419 327 314 233 2007. These data have been drawn from an administrative for the purpose of IT system, which (as with any large scale recording obtaining their sexual services as a system) is subject to possible errors with data entry and prostitute in a street/ processing. public place (kerb crawling) (b) Brothel keeping 142 221 114 197 140 97 (c) Controlling 83 110 98 111 80 50 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS prostitution Animals: Exports Offences of kerb crawling (or solicitation) are charged by way of section 51A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for which repealed, as from 31 March 2010, the solicitation Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress he offences previously prosecuted under the Sexual Offences has made on negotiating with third countries to accept Act 1985. Offences of brothel keeping are prosecuted compartmentalisation as a concept to be included in under sections 33 to 36 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 their export health certificates to permit the continued and section 53A of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. sale and export of breeding stock from the UK in the Controlling, causing or inciting prostitution offences event of an outbreak of notifiable disease specific to are prosecuted under sections 52 and 53 of the Sexual such stock in the UK. [185621] Offences Act 2003. A single defendant may be prosecuted for multiple offences. George Eustice: We continue to make good progress To obtain details of the number of defendants prosecuted promoting the use of compartmentalisation to help for these offences would require a manual exercise of avoid trade in breeding poultry being interrupted in the reviewing individual case files incurring a disproportionate event of an outbreak in the UK of notifiable avian cost. influenza or Newcastle disease. For example, New Zealand has accepted our poultry compartment scheme and 1 The CPS collects data to assist in the effective management of its prosecution functions. The CPS does not collect data which Canada and Japan have visited the UK to assess it. constitute official statistics as defined in the Statistics and Registration When negotiating or reviewing export health certificates Service Act 2007. These data have been drawn from the CPS’s with third countries, we will continue to explore with administrative IT system, which (as with any large scale recording them the compartmentalisation option. 149W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 150W

Cattle energy system to climate change are in addition those needed to maintain the resilience and reliability of Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State networks in the face of standard challenges including for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many severe weather. cattle were slaughtered in (a) England and (b) Wales in each of the last three years. [185674] Databases George Eustice: DEFRA collects data on the number of livestock slaughtered according to both England and Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Wales combined. These numbers are published on a for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the monthly basis at: previous data-collection system will still be closed on 1 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cattle-sheep- April 2014 and transferred to the SAM system as and-pig-slaughter scheduled. [185673]

Number of head: George Eustice: The decommissioning of Vetnet will Prime cattle commence after the final module of the Animal Health (calves, steers, and Veterinary Laboratories Agency’s change programme heifers, young Cows and bulls) adult bulls Total has been delivered, which is expected to happen later this year. The decommissioning process will take account 2011 1,306,000 481,000 1,788,000 of the need to ensure we have access to legacy data that 2012 1,214,000 472,000 1,686,000 needs to be retained in line with retention periods. 2013 1,184,000 447,000 1,631,000

These include any UK prime cattle of all ages (calves, Eels steers, heifers, young bulls) slaughtered as meat for human consumption in abattoirs in England and Wales. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Slaughter statistics are required by the EU under Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Regulation (EC) No 1165/2008. he has made of recent trends in the number of eels in DEFRA runs a monthly survey of registered England the UK; and what steps he is taking to improve eel and Wales slaughterhouses. It is a statutory survey (of habitats. [185467] approximately 105 slaughterhouses) that collects information on livestock slaughter numbers and weight George Eustice: European eel stocks have declined of meat produced. significantly over recent decades. The European Council All major slaughterhouses participate in the survey Regulation 1100/2007, for the recovery of the European and the response rate is typically 100%. These data are eel, requires relevant member states to produce eel supplemented by administrative data for smaller management plans aimed at reversing the decline in eel slaughterhouses. numbers. These eel management plans (EMP) set out actions aimed at achieving 40% ’escapement’ of silver Climate Change (mature) eel to the sea compared to ’pristine’ conditions (i.e. before declines started and without any anthropogenic Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for impacts such as habitat loss affecting the eels as they Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress he grow to maturity in river systems before ’escaping’ to has made on implementation of the recommendations the sea). The UK’s fisheries administrations have produced of the Climate Change Risk Assessment for the Energy 15 EMPs for the European Commission; we are putting Sector on mitigation of the identified in the Tier 1 these plans into action. These cover the UK’s 15 river assessment for each of the 11 sectors collectively; how basin districts and can be found at: much has it cost to date to (a) mitigate and (b) adapt to the impacts; and if he will make a statement on how https://www.gov.uk/government/policies/managing- freshwater-fisheries/supporting-pages/increasing-eel-stocks he plans to take forward work on this report. [185509] This European Eel Regulation also requires member Michael Fallon: I have been asked to reply on behalf states to report, on a three- yearly basis, progress in of the Department for Energy and Climate Change. implementing the measures outlined in EMPs. The latest The National Adaptation Programme (NAP) published report published in 2012 can be found at: last summer set out the Government’s response to the http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/fisheries/documents/ risks identified in Climate Change Risk Assessment, fisheries/emp/2012- implementation.pdf across a number of sectors including energy together An assessment of recent year-on-year trends is not with a register of actions going forward. Progress against available for the UK as a whole. A comparison of the actions will be assessed by the Adaptation Sub-Committee results in the 2012 EMP report and the next reporting (ASC) of the Committee on Climate Change. This period, due in 2015, may be possible when new data are forms part of its statutory duty under the Climate analysed. However, there are significant uncertainties Change Act to assess progress towards implementation looking at any trends in eel populations, mainly due to of objectives, proposals and policies highlighted in the unknowns from monitoring information and because NAP and the register of actions, with reports to be the eel is a long lived species any changes will only be published in 2015 and every two years thereafter. detected long term. The last two years have seen glass DECC does not hold information on costs as this is a eel catches the size of which haven’t been seen since the matter for companies concerned and for Ofgem where it 1990s, but this improvement cannot be assessed in is relevant to price control setting. Actions to adapt the terms of eel recovery at this stage. 151W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 152W

Gangmasters Licensing Authority Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department has made on the effect of the use of rat Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the poisons on the barn owl population. [185653] answer of 6 January 2014, Official Report, column 157W, on Gangmasters Licensing Authority, how many criminal George Eustice: DEFRA has not made an assessment investigations as a result of GLA operations resulted in of the effect of the use of rat poisons on the barn owl court orders for the offender to pay compensation to population. However, levels of rodenticides are monitored victims in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12 and (c) 2012-13. via the Predatory Bird Monitoring Scheme and the [185599] Wildlife Incident Investigation Scheme investigates deaths George Eustice: The GLA secured no compensation of wildlife where pesticides are implicated. I am aware payments through the imposition by the courts of of the risks posed by secondary poisoning and this is compensation orders on those convicted of offences why it is important to use rodenticides lawfully and in under the Gangmasters Licensing Act 2004 during the accordance with all the conditions. three financial years 2010-13. River Thames Nature Conservation: Crime Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent wildlife incidents were reported in the UK in each of investigations his Department has undertaken into the last three years; how many such incidents were river bed changes and sedimentation rates on the upper prosecuted; and how many such prosecutions resulted River Thames and its tributaries, particularly in Oxfordshire. [185901] in a conviction. [185462] George Eustice: DEFRA does not hold this information. Dan Rogerson: We have not completed formal studies on sedimentation rates on the upper River Thames and Owls its tributaries in Oxfordshire. As part of our river flow modelling programme we survey the soft bed and hard Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for bed of the river. This shows the depth of accumulated Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he silt, which in turn provides a measure for the quantity of has made of the number of owls in the UK; and what sedimentation. In the last 12 months, we have completed steps he is taking to increase that number. [185461] five of these studies, extending for a length of 100 km George Eustice: Population estimates for the five (Somerford Keynes to St Johns, Wolvercote Mill to regularly occurring owls in the UK are published Sandford and connecting tributaries along both sections). independently by the British Trust for Ornithology. The Further down the River Thames, we completed studies most recent estimates are set out as follows. Estimates in some stretches of the river to determine the movement for little owl and tawny owl are considered more reliable and build up rates of sediment. These are also likely to than for the other three species. have relevance for the Upper Thames. The areas considered were downstream of the Jubilee River (Datchet). The Population estimate Date of most recent studies were taken over a period of three years and Species (breeding pairs) assessment showed that the River Thames is much more dynamic than first thought, with large amounts of silt moving Barn owl 4,000 1995 to 1997 through the reaches and in many locations was found to Little owl 5,700 2009 be ″self-cleansing″. Tawny owl 50,000 2005 Long-eared owl 1,800 to 6,000 2007 to 2011 Short-eared owl 620 to 2,180 2007 to 2011 Sea Fish Industry Authority

All wild birds are protected under the Wildlife and Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Countryside Act 1981 and it is an offence to kill or Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for what reasons injure any wild bird and to take, damage or destroy fish consumers are subject to a levy to fund the Sea their nests or eggs. In addition to this strict legal protection, Fish Industry Authority (Seafish). [184145] measures are being taken to improve habitats occupied by owls. Dan Rogerson: The Fisheries Act 1981 established the Agri-environment schemes such as Environmental Sea Fish Industry Authority to promote the efficiency Stewardship are the principal means of improving habitats of the industry. In general, fish consumers are not and the wider environment on farmland in England. directly subject to a levy to fund the Sea Fish Industry Farmers receive funding to manage the cropped Authority. The levy is due on all first-hand purchases of environment and provide additional habitats on their sea fish, shellfish and sea fish products including fishmeal farms for birds and other wildlife. Activities currently landed in the United Kingdom. A first-hand purchase funded by Environmental Stewardship of benefit to takes place when product is purchased from: owls include: the establishment of grassy margins and A fisherman or boat owner; buffer strips and the management of field corners, which can provide additional habitat for prey species, A foreign supplier; or such as small mammals; the restoration of traditional Fish and shellfish farmers, growers and cultivators. farm buildings, which can provide both shelter and Levy is also due from any UK registered fishing nesting sites; and the provision of nest boxes. vessel owner, fish and shellfish farmer, grower or cultivator 153W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 154W who lands product in the United Kingdom for subsequent Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State sale direct to a foreign customer, or who trans-ships for Health what discussions his Department has had product within British fishery limits. with the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure Levy is not charged on salmon and migratory trout. that the Department addresses issues on employment Levy is also not charged on canned or bottled fish, or and benefits raised during the listening exercise on the sea fish products packed in a hermetically sealed container review of the adult autism strategy. [185661] which is processed to inhibit microbial growth at ambient temperature. Norman Lamb: Officials have been working closely with the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) on Veterinary Medicine: EU Nationals issues relating to employment and benefits following the listening exercise on the review of the Adult Autism Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Strategy. DWP has recently published the disability and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will have health employment strategy which outlines a more discussions with the Royal College of Veterinary personalised and tailored approach to employment support Surgeons on the introduction of mandatory oral and for disabled people including people with autism. written English tests for veterinary surgeons from the The disability and health employment strategy is EU. [R] [185411] designed to ensure that disabled people including people with autism can make a smooth transition into work George Eustice: DEFRA officials will continue to and receive adequate in-work support when they secure have discussions with the Royal College of Veterinary employment. We are working closely with DWP officials Surgeons about how DEFRA can enable the college to to inform the delivery of their strategy and are supporting put in place processes to check the language ability of a stakeholder event in March with the DWP, senior veterinary surgeons from the EU. Any such testing must representatives from the National Autistic Society and meet requirements of EU law, in recognition of the people with autism as part of this process. professional qualifications Directive 2005/36/EC. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his policy is on the introduction of a HEALTH community-based awareness scheme for autism. [186151] Autism Norman Lamb: As part of the ongoing Review of the Sarah Champion: To ask the Secretary of State for Adult Autism Strategy, we are considering a proposal Health (1) what plans he has to ensure that greater from the National Autistic Society on how local areas transparency and accountability in the delivery of could become more autism-aware communities. services for adults with autism are incorporated into the forthcoming review of the adult autism strategy; [185495] Botulism: Babies (2) what plans he has to develop greater autism awareness in local communities. [185496] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: As part of the ongoing Review of the Health how many infants were diagnosed with botulism Adult Autism Strategy, we are considering a proposal in each of the last three years. [185465] from the National Autistic Society on how local areas could become more autism-aware communities. Jane Ellison: The number of cases of infant botulism Public Health England (PHE) currently oversees the in the United Kingdom in each of the past three years completion by local areas of a self-assessment exercise includes: identifying progress being made in relation to the adult autism strategy. Individual returns should be discussed 2011 2012 2013 by Health and Wellbeing Boards and will be made Number of cases in infants1 312 available shortly by PHE to allow for local discussion 1 www.hpa.org.uk/Topics/InfectiousDiseases/InfectionsAZ/Botulism/ and challenge. As part of the review of the strategy, we EpidemiologicalData/ are also considering how the views and experiences of people with autism can have an even greater impact in this process. Breast Cancer: Drugs

Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for for Health what steps he is taking to ensure that autism Health what discussions he has had with Cardiff is included in the revised mandate for Health University on the drug developed by that university Education England. [185660] that may control the spread of breast cancer. [185463] Dr Poulter: I refer the hon. Member to the written answer I gave on 4 November 2013, Official Report, Jane Ellison: Neither I nor the Secretary of State for column 64W, to the hon. Member for Washington and Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), and to my remarks to West Surrey (Mr Hunt), have had such discussions. him in the Care Bill Standing Committee on the content We understand that development is still at an early of the revised Health Education England mandate on stage and work is under way to progress the compound 28 January 2014, Official Report, column 483. to clinical trials. 155W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 156W

Cancer: Drugs Compulsorily Detained Mental Patients

Eric Ollerenshaw: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health pursuant to the answer of 13 January 2014, (1) how many people have been detained under Mental Official Report, columns 405-6W, on cancer drugs, Health legislation at a hospital in England in each year (1) what communications he has received from NHS since 2010; [185762] England on the effect of NICE decisions on the Cancer (2) how many people detained under Mental Health Drugs Fund; [185387] legislation have been transferred to hospitals in (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of England in each year since 2010. [185773] changes in the cancer drugs approved by NICE on the Cancer Drugs Fund; [185388] Norman Lamb: We do not have figures for people (3) what assurance he has received from NHS detained in England under the Mental Health Act 1983 England that a potential overspend in the Cancer who have been transferred to hospitals in England in Drugs Fund will not affect patients who need access to each year requested as the first analysis of these figures medicines through the Fund; and if he will place in the was in the year 2012-13. Data on the number of transfers Library a copy of any such assurance received. [185389] for that year is supplied in the following table. Transfers from prison and the courts under part III of the Mental Norman Lamb: Ministers have not had any Health Act, 2012-13, England communications from NHS England on the effect of Number National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) All court and prison disposals 1,785 decisions on the Cancer Drugs Fund. Note: We understand that NHS England takes NICE decisions The figure in the table (1,785) does not match total part 3 admissions into account in its planning for the Fund. Where a in table 3 of reference data tables (1,788) as it does not include three detentions under section 45A. cancer drug funded through the Fund is recommended Source: by NICE, responsibility for funding it will transfer from Prison Health Reporting System, Mental Health Numeric Indicators the Fund to national health service commissioners, who submission. are legally required to fund NICE-recommended treatments. Departmental officials have regular discussions with Health Services NHS England about the management of the Fund. In these discussions, assurances have been given that no Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for patient whose treatment is currently being funded through Health what the division of responsibility for health the Fund will have funding withdrawn, as long as it is services policy is between his Department and NHS clinically appropriate that they continue to receive that England. [185374] treatment. Jane Ellison: The functions and duties of the Secretary of State for Health and of NHS England (referred to in Children: Protection the legislation as the National Health Service Commissioning Board) with regard to the national health service are set out in the National Health Service Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Act 2006 (as amended in particular by the Health and what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the Social Care Act 2012). child protection information sharing project; and if he will make a statement. [185932] NHS England’s primary functions relate to the commissioning of health services. It discharges these functions by (a) allocating funds to, guiding and supporting Dr Poulter: Development of the business case for the clinical commissioning groups, and holding them to Child Protection—Information Sharing project, which account; and (b) directly commissioning services, such involved engagement with over 150 health and social as primary care services, certain prescribed specialised care professionals concerned with the protection of services, and services for detained persons. children, included a full assessment of its expected benefits. The Secretary of State retains ministerial responsibility to Parliament for the provision of the health service in The project is designed to offer practitioners in emergency England. Each year, the Secretary of State sets out a departments and other unscheduled health care settings mandate specifying NHS England’s objectives in exercising prompt and easy access to relevant social care information its functions and NHS England’s performance in meeting about a child’s history, including whether the child is those objectives is kept under review by the Secretary of subject to a child protection plan or is looked after by a State. local authority. This information will help the clinician to make a clear assessment of a child’s risk of abuse or The Secretary of State also has public health functions neglect. The system will also give local authorities under the 2006 Act, working with local authorities. information on when and where children for whom they are responsible have presented in such health care settings. Healthcare Strategy Forum The Child Protection—Information Sharing project is expected to go live in first wave sites in Lancashire Mr Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for and London in spring 2014. Evaluation will be ongoing Health (1) how many meetings of the Health Care and any lessons learned will be taken on board before Strategy Forum officials from his Department have the project is rolled out to further sites. attended; [185434] 157W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 158W

(2) what representations on public policy his To date, expenditure on seasonal flu advertising in Department has received from the Health Care Strategy 2013-14, aimed at increasing uptake of the flu vaccine Forum. [185435] among the most at risk groups, has totalled £481,041. This figure includes media expenditure (press, radio, Dr Poulter: We do not keep central records of which magazines, online display, search and pharmacy bags). officials have attended external meetings and the information could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. We Medical Records: Databases have checked our main departmental correspondence database and can find no record of any correspondence from the Health Care Strategy Forum within the last 12 Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for months. Any correspondence addressed to officials directly Health what assessment he has made of the benefits to is not recorded centrally, and information could be treatment and care quality of making health records obtained only at disproportionate cost. available for medical research. [185506] Dr Poulter: The benefits to treatment and care of Hospitals: Air Pollution making anonymised and linked patient records available to researchers, protecting patient confidentiality, are set out in the ‘Plan for Growth’, the ‘Strategy for UK Life Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Sciences’and the NHS Chief Executive’s report ‘Innovation Health (1) if he will issue guidance on the Health and Wealth’. implementation of EN 13779:2007 and indoor air quality in hospitals; [185587] Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what he expects all NHS hospitals in England to Health whether any medical data will be extracted by meet the requirements of EN 13779:2007 on indoor air care.data from GP-held records of patients who have quality; [185600] objected to the use of their confidential information by (3) how many NHS hospitals in England currently others than those providing them with care. [185516] meet the requirements of EN 13779:2007 on indoor air quality. [185601] Dr Poulter [holding answer 3 February 2014]: In terms of information which identifies a patient, NHS Dr Poulter: The Department’s guidance document, England’s “Better information means better care” leaflet ‘Health Technical Memorandum (HTM) 03-01: Specialised sets out how people can ask their GP practice to note ventilation for healthcare premises’ sets out guidance their objections, which will prevent confidential, identifiable for minimum standards with respect to ventilation strategy data about them being used by the care.data programme, with health care premises. HTM 03-01 was published other than in a very limited number of exceptional just prior to the publication of BS EN 13779:2007. This circumstances. will be updated to reflect current standards when it is As examples, existing public health legislation may reviewed. HTM 03-01 forms part of the list of guidance require data to control the spread of specific infectious currently due to be considered for review. diseases or the police may require information about an There are currently no plans requiring national health individual patient when investigating serious crime. service hospitals to implement BS EN 13779:2007 in a Decisions are made on a case-by-case basis and must wholesale manner. Health care premises will currently balance legal requirements, the duty of confidentiality utilise the guidance provided within HTM 03-01 to owed to the patient and the accepted public interest in a assist in the determination of indoor air quality standards. confidential health service, all against any benefits that The hospital will select the relevant primary and secondary may arise from the disclosure. filtration dependent upon the air quality of the local It is important to note that provisions in the Health environment and upon the requirements of the clinical and Social Care Act 2012 are designed to strengthen area that is served by the air-handling unit in question and clarify the role of the Health and Social Care to ensure the safety of patients and staff. Adoption of Information Centre so that information can be collected, the filtration standards required by BS EN 13779:2007 held securely and made readily available to those who is a decision for local NHS services after making an need it in safe, de-identified formats, with crucial safeguards assessment of the risks involved. in place to protect the confidential data it holds. The Department does not collect data in relation to The Health and Social Care Act 2012 is clear that indoor air quality within NHS hospitals. “information which identifies or enables identification of a person must not be published”. Influenza: Vaccination Midwives Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department spent on the seasonal Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health influenza vaccination public awareness campaign for how many midwifery students there were in the most 2013-14, by category of expenditure. [186134] recent year for which figures are available. [186065]

Jane Ellison: Responsibility for the seasonal influenza Dr Poulter: Health Education England commissions vaccination public awareness campaign moved to Public midwifery training places on behalf of the national Health England on 1 April 2013 along with the other health service. In 2012-13, they funded a total 6,315 departmental public health campaigns. training places for midwives at various stages of training. 159W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 160W

Postnatal Depression Re-employment

Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he has taken to support women Health how many staff who have been made redundant suffering from post-natal depression; and what steps he or retired from his Department have subsequently been has taken to increase awareness of post-natal depression re-employed by his Department since May 2010. in maternity services and social support. [186150] [185566] Dr Poulter: Since May 2010 the Department has Dr Poulter: The Mandate from the Government to re-employed one individual who had previously worked NHS England includes an objective for NHS England in the Department and was made redundant. to work with partner organisations to reduce the incidence and impact of postnatal depression through earlier The appointment followed a fair and open recruitment diagnosis, and better intervention and support. process which had been advertised on the civil service jobs website. The new appointment is permanent, and The NHS Mandate also includes an objective that at a lower grade than the position previously held. every woman has a named midwife who is responsible There was a gap of 16 months between the leaving date for ensuring she has personalised care throughout and the new appointment. pregnancy, childbirth and during the postnatal period. This will help clinicians to identify perinatal mental Sexuality health problems as early as possible and to give women the support they need. Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent representations he has received on To achieve this we have increased the number of conversion therapy. [185912] midwives by over 1,500 and the number of health visitors by over 1,000 since May 2010. In addition, a Norman Lamb: The Department has recently received record 5,000 midwifery students are currently in training a number of representations on conversion therapy and we are committed to having an extra 4,200 health including three parliamentary questions, 35 pieces of visitors by 2015. correspondence and an adjournment debate which took Health Education England has committed to ensure place in Westminster Hall on 20 November 2013. that we have the right knowledge and training available We have also received a number of representations on so that we can be skilled in how we look after women’s the regulation of psychotherapists, some of which have mental as well as physical health and ensure there will been prompted by concerns around conversion therapy be specialist staff available for every birthing unit by or the Private Member’s ‘Counsellors and Psychotherapists 2017. (Regulation) Bill 2013-14’ which contains a requirement The Institute of Health Visiting has delivered perinatal for a code of practice which ″must include a prohibition on gay to straight conversion mental health training and introduced three interactive ″ e-learning modules. This new resource will help health therapy . visitors in the detection and management of perinatal The Department is working with the UK Council for depression and other maternal mental health conditions. Psychotherapy and NHS England to minimise the risk that lesbians, gay men and bisexual people who seek counselling about their sexuality will encounter therapists Prescriptions: Fees and Charges attempting to change their sexual orientation because the therapist considers that being gay is wrong. Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Smoking: Young People Health if he will include stroke patients in the list of those exempted from prescription charges. [185431] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to prevent under-age Norman Lamb: In 2010, responding to Professor Ian smoking. [185466] Gilmore’s review into extending entitlement to free prescriptions to all those with a long-term condition, Jane Ellison: Reducing the uptake of smoking by the Government made clear that in light of the challenging children is a public health priority for the Government. financial context, no changes would be made to the The Government published ‘Healthy Lives, Healthy current list of exemptions. Prescription charges in England People: A Tobacco Control Plan for England’. This raise valuable income, in the region of £450 million plan includes a national ambition to reduce smoking each year, which helps the national health service to rates among 15-year-olds in England to 12% or less by maintain vital services for patients. the end of 2015. An extensive range of exemptions, based on age, The Government introduced legislation to stop the income and medical condition are already in place to sale of tobacco from vending machines in England in support those who may struggle to pay for their 2011. Legislation to end the displays of tobacco products prescriptions. Around 90% of prescriptions are dispensed was commenced for large shops in 2012 and will be free of charge, including to those who have a Prescription extended to all other shops in 2015. These measures will Prepayment Certificate (PPC). PPCs are available for play a role in reducing smoking among young people. those who have to pay NHS prescription charges and On 29 January 2014 the House of Lords passed a need multiple prescriptions. With the annual PPC, someone Government amendment to the Children and Families can obtain as many items as they need for £2 a week. Bill to enable the introduction of standardised packaging The price of the annual certificate has now been frozen of tobacco products should the Government decide to for the fourth successive year, and the three-month PPC proceed with this policy following the current Chandler has been frozen for two years. Review. 161W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 162W

In addition, the Government made commitments Norman Lamb: We recognise the significant benefits during Report to also table amendments to this Bill to that telehealth can have on patient outcomes and experience, introduce a proxy purchasing offence for tobacco and and that telehealth interventions could be used much for regulation-making powers to introduce an age of more widely.The Department’s Mandate to NHS England sale for nicotine products such as e-cigarettes. set out an ambition to achieve a significant increase in Both measures are aimed at protecting the health of the use of technology to help people manage their children by reducing nicotine addiction and smoking-take health and care. among young people. The 3millionlives programme led by NHS England Latest data show that smoking prevalence among has been set up to address this and create an environment 15-year-olds had fallen to 10% by 2012. which enables service improvement underpinned by ‘Healthy Lives, Healthy People: A Tobacco Control technologies such as telehealth for people living with Plan for England’ has already been placed in the Library. long-term conditions. The objectives of the 3millionlives initiative are: Streptococcus to promote the benefits that telehealth, telecare and other tele-interventions can provide people in managing their health Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for and care; Health if he will publish the reply by the Acting Chief to work with industry to develop the market and remove Executive of the Health Protection Agency to the letter barriers to delivery; sent to him on 21 December 2012 by the Chief Medical to create the right environment to support the uptake of Officer, Department of Health, in respect of Group B tele-interventions; streptococcus in intrapartum women. [185929] to work with the NHS, social care and other stakeholders to simplify procurement and Dr Poulter: The current Director for Health Protection and Medical Director for Public Health England (formerly commissioning processes for telehealth, telecare and other tele-interventions at scale; and the acting chief executive of the Health Protection Agency) is content to share the reply to the letter sent to to put the NHS and UK industry at the forefront of telehealth, telecare and other tele-intervention services globally, developing him on 21 December 2012 by the chief medical officer, significant opportunities for UK plc. Department of Health, in respect of Group B streptococcus. While this will focus on patients with long-term A copy of the letter has been placed in the Library. conditions (both physical and mental) in general, local commissioners will be best placed to determine which Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for specific conditions or patient cohorts would benefit Health what advice his Department has given to from particular tele-interventions. regional and local laboratories to raise awareness among microbiology and pathology staff to ensure that the enhanced medium is offered when testing is Warrington Hospital requested in respect of Group B streptococcus in intrapartum women; and if he will make a statement. Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health [185930] what steps he is taking to reduce ambulance waiting times at Warrington Hospital; and when he last Dr Poulter: Public Health England (PHE) published discussed those waiting times with (a) representatives a briefing note in January 2014 to provide information of that hospital and (b) the North West Ambulance for PHE’s regional microbiologists on the appropriate Trust. [185990] place of enriched culture medium (ECM) testing within current United Kingdom guidelines. This document Dr Poulter: Ambulance handover times at Warrington was developed following discussion with other relevant hospital are a matter for the local national health service. professional bodies and is available on their website. As such, no recent discussions have been held between The work that led to this briefing note concluded that the Department and Warrington and Halton Hospitals no indications for testing high risk women using ECM NHS Foundation Trust or North West Ambulance methods have been evaluated or recommended within Service NHS Trust about this matter. current clinical practice. Offering the test to low risk We have written to Allan Massey, chair of the Warrington women at 35-37 weeks of pregnancy is also not and Halton Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, informing recommended in the UK. him of the hon. Member’s query. He will reply, shortly As a result of this work, PHE decided not to introduce and a copy of the letter will be placed in the Library. the test within its laboratories. This was also mentioned in internal PHE communications in December 2013 to regional heads of microbiology operations and regional microbiology network CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT managers. Telemedicine Arts: North West

Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps he is taking to increase the use of Culture, Media and Sport how much arts funding from telehealth in the delivery of healthcare to tackle health her Department and the Arts Council per head of issues for (a) the homeless, (b) those suffering from population was allocated to (a) the North West, (b) long-term physical and mental health conditions and Cheshire and (c) Warrington in each of the last five (c) other health problems. [186149] years. [186052] 163W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 164W

Mr Vaizey: Arts Council England makes its funding We are clear, and will continue to demonstrate, that decisions independently of Government and as such we the UK Government is committed to protecting human do not hold the information requested. Nearly £3 billion rights, not just in this country but abroad. will be invested in the Arts over the lifetime of this Parliament. Pensions Gaming Machines Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what effect changes in Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for pension contributions have had on the take-home pay Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the oral answer of officials of her Department at (a) AA, (b) AO and by the Prime Minister of 8 January 2014, Official LO2, (c) EO and LO1, (d) HEO, (e) SEO, (f) 7 and Report, column 295, whether the review of Category B (g) SCS grades and equivalents since May 2010. gaming machines due to report in the spring will [186031] include an assessment of effects of £100 stakes and £500 prizes of fixed odds betting terminals in betting Mrs Grant: I refer the hon. Member to the answer shops on problem gambling; and if she will make a given by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster statement. [186021] General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude). Mrs Grant: DCMS has already carried out a review on the impact that a reduction in stake and/or prize limits on category B2 gaming machines would have on Press: Regulation gambling related harm, which was published in October 2013. Formal advice received from the Gambling Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission and Responsible Gambling Strategy Board Culture, Media and Sport what progress her on the triennial review of gaming machine stakes and Department has made in establishing the Recognition prizes recommended that a precautionary reduction in Panel. [184868] stake and/or prize limits was not supported by the available evidence. Since then DCMS has asked the Mr Vaizey: This is a matter for the Office of the bookmakers to provide more information which will Commissioner for Public Appointments and not a matter help augment our understanding of the impact of these for Government. I understand the Commissioner for machines, including looking at their stake and prize Public Appointments has appointed the Appointments levels. DCMS is working with the Gambling Commission, Committee that will make the initial appointments to Responsible Gambling Strategy Board, the Responsible the board of the panel. Gambling Trust and the industry itself, to assess a range Further information can be found on the Commissioner’s of options-including but not limited to action on stakes website: and prizes-which might be effective in strengthening protection for users of category B gaming machines. http://publicappointmentscommissioner.independent.gov.uk/ press-self-regulation/ Olympic Games: Russia Re-employment Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what steps her Department Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for is taking to promote the rights of LGBT people during Culture, Media and Sport how many staff who have the Sochi Olympic Games. [185349] been made redundant or retired from her Department have subsequently been re-employed by her Department Mrs Grant: The Government has been proactive on since May 2010. [185561] this area and engaged frequently with the Russian Government during the past year. Mrs Grant: DCMS has not re-employed employees The Prime Minister raised concerns about the protection who have been made redundant or retired since May of human rights for LGB&T people with President 2010. Putin in a meeting in St Petersburg on 6 September 2013. He made clear the strength of feeling about the Sports: Children Russian law and its impact on LGB&T people. Ahead of the Sochi winter games, the Secretary of Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for State for Culture, Media and Sport, my right hon. Culture, Media and Sport which official within her Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), Department is the (a) national lead and (b) strategic visited Russia last December to meet with both Russian commissioner for under-14 community sport. [186012] Government Ministers and NGO groups and discussed with them the situation for LGB&T people in Russia Mrs Grant: DCMS is responsible for government and the promotion and protection of human rights. policy on elite and community sport and provides funding Over the coming months Stonewall will be developing to Sport England, an arm’s length body of DCMS, to and working to deliver a programme of activities to deliver community sport for all ages in England, including Russian human rights defenders to help improve their helping 14 to 25-year-olds to keep playing sport throughout capacity to support LGB&T people in Russia. Stonewall’s their lives. The names, roles and responsibilities of work is being made possible through support from the DCMS Ministers and senior officials are set out on the UK Government. DCMS website. 165W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 166W

WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Mrs Grant: The proportion of staff based in the Government Equalities Office who have not declared Average Earnings their status in answer to any or all of the questions in diversity declaration forms since June 2013 is 73%. Completion of this data is non-mandatory for staff Philip Davies: To ask the Minister for Women and though we actively encourage disclosure. Equalities what the average salary was of employees of the Government Equalities Office who were (a) male, We do not hold information prior to that date. (b) female, (c) of white ethnic origin, (d) of Black Philip Davies: To ask the Minister for Women and and minority ethnic origin, (e) disabled and (f) not Equalities how many employees of the Government disabled in the latest period for which figures are Equalities Office are currently (a) male, (b) female, available. [185375] (c) of white ethnic origin, (d) of Black and minority ethnic origin, (e) disabled and (f) not disabled. Mrs Grant: The tables show the average salary of [185340] employees of the Government Equalities Office who were (a) male, (b) female, (c) of white ethnic origin, Mrs Grant: The following tables show the number of (d) of other ethnic origin, (e) disabled and (f) not full time equivalents based in the Government Equalities disabled in the latest period for which figures are available. Office who are currently (a) male, (b) female, (c) of Gender white ethnic origin, (d) of other ethnic origin, (e) Average salary (£) disabled and (f) not disabled. Ethnicity Male 43,963 Number of FTEs Female 41,867 Not declared 44.90 Ethnicity Any other ethnic background 6.00 Average salary (£) Prefer not to say 1.00 Not declared 46,517 White 7.69 Any other ethnic background 40,927 Total 59.59 Prefer not to say 35,003 Gender White 43,603 Number of FTEs Total 45,568 Female 39.59 Disability Male 20.00 Average salary (£) Total 59.59 Not declared 46,410 Disability No 43,599 Number of FTEs Prefer not to say 35,003 Yes 39,932 Not declared 44.90 Total 45,568 No 12.69 Prefer not to say 1.00 Completion of diversity data is non-mandatory for Yes 1.00 staff. As such these figures may not be fully representative Total 59.59 of work force diversity. Completion of this data is non-mandatory for staff. Complaints As such these figures may not be fully representative of workforce diversity. Philip Davies: To ask the Minister for Women and Training Equalities how many grievances have been raised by Philip Davies: To ask the Minister for Women and staff at the Government Equalities Office on the grounds Equalities how many staff currently working at the of any kind of discrimination in each of the last five Government Equalities Office have not received diversity years; and what the outcome was in each case. [185377] training. [185376] Mrs Grant: No employees at the Government Equalities Mrs Grant: GEO employees have not completed the Office have raised grievances on the grounds of any Equality and Diversity Essentials training provided by kind of discrimination since they joined the DCMS Civil Service Learning since they joined DCMS payroll payroll on 1 June 2013. We do not hold information on 1 June 2013. We do not hold information of training prior to that date. undertaken prior to that date.

Staff DEFENCE Philip Davies: To ask the Minister for Women and Afghanistan Equalities what proportion of staff of the Government Equalities Department has not declared their status in Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for answer to any or all of the questions in diversity Defence what plans he has for the future use of the declaration forms in each of the last five years for Afghanistan Operational Equipment Fleet; and if he which figures are available. [185339] will make a statement. [182353] 167W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 168W

Mr Francois [holding answer 13 January 2014]: The Colombia future of equipment bought through the Urgent Operational Requirement process for operations in Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan is currently being considered, with a Defence which (a) defence contractors and (b) other departmental provision of £1.5 billion over 10 years. companies have been hosted by the Government at I can confirm that we have already decided to bring events connected with the visit of HMS Richmond to some two thousand Protected Mobility Vehicles into Cartagena; and if he will make a statement. [186063] the core programme, including 71 Coyotes, 325 Huskies, 441 Jackals, 439 Mastiffs, 169 Ridgbacks, and 60 Warthogs. Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for This represents a significant increase in the Army’s Defence (1) what discussions were held between the protected mobility capability. Parliamentary Under Secretary of State and representatives of the Colombian government on the International Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for Security Strategy and related matters; and if he will Defence what the (a) name and (b) regiment was of make a statement; [186123] the Royal Engineer whose repatriation parade was scheduled (2) what the outcome has been of the recent for 31 December 2013 but which was cancelled soon UK-Colombian discussions on proposed collaboration after; and for what reason the repatriation was not between the Royal Navy and the Colombian armed carried out in public. [185447] forces; [186131] (3) what role Arfan Chaundhry has in the bilateral Anna Soubry: Captain Richard Holloway, Royal discussions between his Department and the (a) Engineers, 24 Commando Engineer Regiment was Colombian Government and (b) Colombian armed repatriated on 31 December 2013. The repatriation was forces; and if he will make a statement; [186136] carried out in private at the request of his family. (4) if he will place in the Library a copy of the draft memorandum of understanding between the Government Armed Forces: Domestic Violence and the government and armed forces of Colombia arising from their discussion held aboard HMS Richmond Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence in Cartagena; and if he will make a statement. [186137] what measures are in place to support service families affected by domestic violence. [186005] Dr Murrison: The bilateral discussion covered a number of areas for defence cooperation, focusing upon current Anna Soubry: The Ministry of Defence does not counter narcotics activity and regional security, tolerate domestic violence; neither do we consider it to opportunities for us to further our relationship through be a purely private matter. The Department’s policy is transformation of the Colombian Defence organisation, set out in a Joint Service Publication, which raises Colombia’s initiative to co-operate more with other awareness about our policy and the sources of help nations and their interest in NATO, and opportunities available to everyone in the service community. This to co-operate in maritime security. The memorandum helps service personnel who are experiencing domestic of understanding that was signed during the meeting violence, or who are aware of someone else who is will facilitate greater cooperation and joint training experiencing violence, know what to do to seek help between the Colombian Navy and the Royal Navy, with and have the confidence to do so. cooperation in counternarcotics as a primary intent. I will place a copy in the Library of the House shortly. There are a comprehensive range of sources and help in place to support service families who are victims of Following the bilateral discussions, UK Trade & industry domestic violence. This includes single-service welfare (UKTI) Defence & Security Organisation arranged a providers; welfare and personnel staff, and help lines. small Defence & Security Industry Day (DSID) onboard Practical help available includes alternative service HMS Richmond, comprising six UK companies: BAE accommodation and referral to specialist services such Systems, Selex ES, Surrey Satellites (SSTL), Agusta as refuge. Westland, Cobham and MBDA. Representatives from the Colombian Navy, including cadets from the Naval College, attended the DSID. Arfan Chaudhry is a Asia representative of the UKTI Defence & Security Organisation. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 16 January 2014, Curzon Institute Official Report, column 664W, on Asia, what projects are currently being carried out to help his Department Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for assess the implications of sharing military assets, Defence what recent contact his Department had with including unmanned systems, with the US in Asia. [R] (a) Curzon Education and (b) the Curzon Institute; [185420] what contracts his Department holds with those bodies; and what the value of those contracts is. Mr Francois: There are no projects being undertaken [184995] by the Ministry of Defence to assess the implications of sharing military assets with the US specifically in Asia. Mr Dunne: Details of meetings between Ministry of However, the UK and US armed forces have a very Defence Ministers and external organisations have been close relationship and we continue to examine and published since May 2010 and are available on Gov.uk: pursue opportunities for burden sharing and for improving https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ministers-gifts- interoperability. hospitality-travel-and-meetings 169W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 170W

Details of meetings between senior Ministry of Defence was awarded to replace the Browning with the Glock 17 staff and external organisations have been published pistol which performed overall best in both performance since October 2010 and are available on the Gov.uk and cost. website at the following link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/senior-staff- Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft meetings Information on any other meetings with external Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for organisations is not held centrally and could be provided Defence what assessment he has made of the progress only at disproportionate cost. of the F35 Lightning II programme. [185768] The Ministry of Defence has no record of contracts being held with either Curzon Education or the Curzon Mr Dunne: Delivery of the F-35 programme in terms Institute and has routinely published information on of performance, time and cost remains under continuous contracts awarded by the Department since January assessment as part of the Ministry of Defence’s ongoing 2011 on the Government’s contracts finder website at process of assurance. Overall, the F-35 programme the following link: continues to make steady progress. The development https://www.gov.uk/contracts-finder Flight Test programme is on target and in August 2013, the F-35B underwent a successful second set of carrier Defence: Procurement trials aboard the USS Wasp. The UK F-35 programme has taken delivery of its Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for first three aircraft on schedule, which are currently Defence which equipment programmes procured using based at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida. An order was a single source currently have a cost overrun risk ratio placed for a fourth UK aircraft in September 2013. The of over 50 per cent. [185817] UK programme remains on track to deliver Initial Operating Capability in December 2018. Mr Dunne: This information is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what estimate he has made of the annual Djibouti maintenance costs of the F35. [185769]

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence does not issue Defence pursuant to the answer of 17 January 2014, details of its cost estimates ahead of contractual Official Report, column 695W, on Djibouti, how many negotiations, as this disclosure would prejudice its UK personnel are based at Camp Lemonnier; what the commercial interests. The UK has full access to US purpose is of their deployment; and under whose line data on maintenance as well as conducting its own of command those personnel fall. [R] [185455] independent reviews and estimates in support of financial planning. At this relatively early stage of the programme, Mr Francois [holding answer 3 February 2014]: At the support solution for the F-35 programme is still present, there are three UK armed forces personnel maturing and support costs during the current Low embedded with US forces at Camp Lemonnier. They Rate Initial Production phase remain in line with forecast work within the Combined Joint Task Force-Horn of approvals. Africa (CJFT-HOA) and are responsible for planning and supporting US military operations in the region. Land As embedded military personnel within a US headquarters they come under the command and control of the US Mr Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence armed forces, but remain subject to UK law, policy and what recent discussions he has had on the possible military jurisdiction. disposal of surplus Ministry of Defence land and property for housing development in London and the Firearms South East. [185469]

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Murrison: Ministry of Defence (MOD) Ministers Defence how many Sig Sauer pistols his Department hold regular discussions with officials and Cabinet bought as an urgent operational requirement; and what colleagues on a range of land and property matters, the cost to the public purse was of that purchase. including the possible disposal of surplus MOD property. [184197] Marines Mr Dunne: The cost to purchase a Sig Sauer was less than that estimated for repairing unserviceable Brownings. Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for To meet operational demands in Iraq and Afghanistan, Defence what his policy is on the future of the Royal between 2003 and 2013 6,600 Sig Sauer pistols and Marines; and if he will make a statement. [185767] associated drop holsters were purchased to a total cost of around £2.5 million. Mr Francois: The Royal Marines will remain a fully Purchases of the Sig Sauer pistol was an urgent integrated part of the Royal Navy. In particular, the operational order that was extant to the need to permanently Royal Marines’ 3 Commando Brigade will continue to replace the Browning. A full competition was carried deliver the Lead Commando Group, as part of a maritime out in 2012 and although seven different pistols, including task force, forming a key component of our high readiness the Sig Sauer, were considered and evaluated the contract response force. 171W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 172W

Military Aircraft value of invoices paid so far in financial year (FY) 2013-14 have used Purchase 2 Payment (P2P), the Sir Gerald Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s primary e-purchasing tool. Defence how many systems (a) have been delivered The number of contracts placed by the MOD using and (b) are operational under the Aircrew Moving P2P for the last three FYs is shown in the following Map Alerting System contract since that contract was table. awarded in October 2013. [185475] Number of new Percentage of total Mr Dunne: The Aircrew Moving Map Wire Alerting FY contracts on P2P contracts placed System contract was awarded to Inspire in October 2013. To date 66 aircrew systems have been delivered 2011-12 1,077 23 and each delivery has been supported by a training 2012-13 1,236 37 1 package for air and ground crews. 2013-14 865 52 1 User communities have completed flight and ground 1 April 2013-30 January 2014 inclusive trials and we expect to secure release to service, which Information prior to FY 2011-12 is not available. will enable the system to be used operationally, very The value of current live contracts paid through P2P shortly. is £89.1 billion which represents 58% of all live contracts. Historical information covering the value of contracts NATO on P2P for each previous FY is not held. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Publications Defence what personnel and assets from his Department will take part in the Iceland Air Meet Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for 2014. [185822] Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of the DE&S Inventory Strategic Plan. [184213] Mr Francois: No personnel or assets from the Ministry of Defence are participating in this NATO exercise. Mr Dunne: The DE&S Inventory Management Strategy Procurement (IMS) was finalised in February 2013 and has not required updating since then. It reflects how the Department Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for set the headmark to adopt a strategic approach to Defence what proportion of his Department’s overall address the observations made by the National Audit procurement spend for each of the last three financial Office report ‘Managing the Defence Inventory’, published years was spent (a) in joint procurement exercises with in June 2012. other departments and (b) shared between different The document will be placed in the Library of the organisations within the same Department group. House. [185396] Russia Dr Murrison: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) uses a number of centrally negotiated framework agreements Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for managed by the Crown Commercial Service (CCS), Defence when he expects the Military Technical formerly the Government Procurement Service. The Co-operation Agreement with Russia to be signed. proportion of spend for each financial year is provided [185815] in the following table: Dr Murrison: The UK and Russian Governments are Proportion of overall working closely to finalise a military technical co-operation Expenditure through procurement spend CCS (approx. £ (approx. agreement for signature as soon as is practicable. Financial year million) percentage) Space Technology 2010-11 342 1.7 2011-12 900 4.5 Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012-13 1,400 7 Defence what progress has been made on publication of a National Space Security Policy; and if he will Information on other pan-Governmental frameworks make a statement. [185584] in use by the MOD and details of expenditure on shared procurement between different organisations within Mr Dunne: The National Space Security Policy is in the departmental group is not held centrally and could the process of approval by the National Security Council. be provided only at disproportionate cost. It will be published in due course. Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for each of the last three financial years how Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for much and what proportion of his Department’s Defence what assessment his Department has made of procurement was conducted using e-procurement the potential contribution of the space and satellite tools; and what the value of such contracts was. [185402] industries to UK defence and security. [185643] Mr Dunne: The Ministry of Defence (MOD) is Mr Dunne: The UK is an innovator in delivering committed to exploiting e-procurement fully to improve defence and security services from space. The UK the effectiveness and efficiency of its purchasing process. space and satellite industry already makes a significant Around 50% of contracts placed and around 60% by contribution to UK defence and security through the 173W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 174W provision of secure satellite communications via Paradigm Brandon Lewis [holding answer 3 February 2014]: Secure Communications (now part of the Airbus Defence The Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005, and Space Division of the Airbus Group). introduced in October 2006, abolished the 1971 Fire The Government continues to assess whether and Precautions Act which required certain businesses to how the UK industry could contribute more. The context apply for a fire certificate. Under the Fire Safety Order, in which this is considered will be set out in the forthcoming all those responsible for non-domestic premises, including National Space Security Policy. residential care and nursing homes, must now assess the risk from fire in their premises and put in place, and Unmanned Air Vehicles maintain, adequate and appropriate fire prevention and safety measures to mitigate the risk to life in the event Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for one occurs. Defence if he will place in the Library a copy of the Fire and rescue authorities have powers to enforce recently declassified study on stress suffered by UK the provisions of the fire safety order in the majority of RPAS pilots carried out by Dr Wayne Cappelle. [R] premises to which it applies in their area. Under the [185372] National Framework for Fire and Rescue, each authority is required to determine its own risk-based audit—or Mr Francois: UK remotely piloted air system pilots inspection—programme for enforcing compliance with were not part of Dr Wayne Chappelle’s study. its provisions.

Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal Defence pursuant to the answer of 15 January 2014, Official Report, columns 578-79W, on unmanned aerial Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for vehicles, what the role of the UK is in each of the three Communities and Local Government what evidential activities of the Unmanned Aerial Systems Programme basis he used for each of the myths, numbered 1 to 10, identified in the answer. [R] [185412] documented in, Guidance on weekly rubbish collections produced by his Department in January 2014. [184932] Mr Dunne: The UK role in the Coalition Attack Guidance Experiment (CAGE) is to deliver a simulation Brandon Lewis: The document contains endnotes of the UK command and control (C2) and unmanned providing primary or third party sources where applicable. air systems (UAS) in a representative scenario to explore It was also drawn up based on the on-the-ground experience interoperability and C2 issues with our coalition partners. learnt from my Department’s weekly collection support scheme. The UK role in MC-MACE is as collaborative partner participating in a series of joint experiments to evaluate This is the first ever substantive document produced multi-UAS control research concepts by providing software by a government supporting weekly collections and representations of ground control stations in a championing evidence-based best practice. It seeks to representative, simulation environment. challenge the misconceptions and lazy thinking commonly peddled by certain narrow vested interests. The UK role in Bristow is to design, and execute a flight trial to assess the ability of ground systems to EU Grants and Loans track small UAS and to evaluate the performance of the UAS without the aid of GPS. The Technical Cooperation Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for Program (TTCP) nations were invited to observe the Communities and Local Government what the policy trial. objectives are of the European Regional Development Fund funding programme for 2014 to 2020. [184787] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 19 December 2013, Brandon Lewis: The objective of the 2014 to 2020 Official Report, column 709W,on unmanned Air Vehicles, European Regional Development Funds Programme whether the RAF officer responsible for liaison with US for England is to support smart, sustainable and inclusive visiting forces at RAF Croughton has authority to stop growth. The Government is bringing together the European a command by the USAF commander for release of a Regional Development Fund, the European Social Fund lethal weapon. [R] [185430] and the European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development in a single Growth Programme for England. Mr Francois: RAF Croughton is a communications This funding will be decentralised and delivered through facility and no combat operations are undertaken from local enterprise partnership areas rather than rigid and the base. The use of UK bases for combat operations by arbitrary Government office regions. the United States would in any case be a matter for joint decision by the UK and US Governments. Fire Services Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT answer of 4 November 2014, Official Report, column 19W, on Fire Service, when the response to the Efficiency and Care Homes Operational review will be published. [184837] Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Brandon Lewis: Ministers are currently considering Communities and Local Government what requirements the wide range of issues raised by Sir Ken Knight and there are for (a) frequency and (b) certification of fire the responses from many in the fire and rescue sector to inspections of residential and nursing care homes. the review. The Government will publish a response in [185354] due course. 175W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 176W

Homelessness: Sexuality Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for businesses in (a) the West Midlands, (b) Dudley and Communities and Local Government what statistics (c) Stourbridge constituency will be affected by the the Government keeps on lesbian, gay, bisexual and proposed £1,000 business rate rebate for any retail transgender homelessness. [185916] premise with a rateable value of under £50,000. [181113] Kris Hopkins: The Government does not collect any statistics on the numbers of lesbian, gay, bisexual or Brandon Lewis: As announced in the autumn statement, transgender people who are homeless. the Government is helping local small shops, restaurants The Housing Act 1996 provides that a person has a and pubs with their business rates, by introducing a priority need for accommodation if he or she is vulnerable £1,000 discount off their bills for the next two years for any ″other special reason″. The legislation envisages from April 2014. This is part of a package of measures, that vulnerability can arise because of factors that are including the further extension of small business rate not expressly provided for in statute. This will include relief, a new relief to get empty shops back into use, the any lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered people who ability for firms to pay bills over 12 month instalments are vulnerable as a result of losing their home. to help them with their cash flow, and capping the yearly indexation at 2% this year. Local Government Finance The discount will apply to eligible businesses with a Andy Sawford: To ask the Secretary of State for rateable value of £50,000 or less, and will be delivered Communities and Local Government (1) how much by local billing authorities using their Localism Act council tax support grant has been allocated to town powers to levy new local discounts. The cost will be met and parish councils in England in (a) 2013-14 and (b) by central Government. Local authorities will locally 2014-15; [184791] determine eligibility, given the practical diversity of different types of hereditaments. However, my Department (2) what estimate he has made of the proportion of has published guidance to assist local authorities in council tax support grant allocated by the Government ensuring that eligible local firms receive the support to town and parish councils that has been passed on to they deserve. I am placing a copy in the Library of the town and parish councils by billing authorities in the House. latest period for which figures are available; [184792] While we have made some initial estimates, local (3) if he will place in the Library any recent authorities will be reporting back to my Department in correspondence from his Department to billing authorities due course on their estimate of the total amount of which make reference to their passing council tax support discount they expect to give businesses in their areas, grant on to town and parish councils. [184793] and I am happy to commit to placing in the Library of Brandon Lewis: In 2013-14, the funding provided to the House a local authority breakdown once that local authorities in respect of local council tax support information is available. I hope this will illustrate to was £3.3 billion. For 2013-14 only, the Government set hon. Members how this Government is standing up for out an indicative amount of £40,450,000 attributable to the local retail and hospitality trade. parish and town councils in England. Statistics recently published show that 98% of this indicative amount was John Stevenson: To ask the Secretary of State for passed down. Communities and Local Government how much revenue was raised from commercial rates in 2013. http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/1314/ CTS_models.xls [184223] I refer the hon. Member to the Written Ministerial Brandon Lewis [holding answer 3 February 2014]: Statement of 18 December 2013, Official Report, column Details of the amount of council tax and national 101-104WS, which sets out clearly the Government’s non-domestic rates collected in 2012-13 are to be found intention that the element of localised council tax support in tables 5 and 6 of the statistical release ‘Collection funding provided to local authorities which reflects rates and receipts of council tax and non-domestic rates reductions in town and parish tax bases should be passed in England 2012-13’. This is available on the DCLG down to those councils. The Government expects billing website at: authorities to engage in dialogue with their parish and town councils to agree the amount of funding to pass down. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/collection-rates- for-council-tax-and-non-domestic-rates-in-england-2012-to-2013 http://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-vote-office/ December%202013/16%20December/ The tables show the amounts collected both in respect 8.%20DCLG%20LG%20Finance.pdf of the current year and previous years but also pre-payments I wrote to leaders of all billing authorities on 6 January in respect of future years. 2014 on this issue. A copy of this letter has been placed In that year, £22.759 billion was collected in council in the Library of the House. tax and £21.632 billion collected in business rates. Non-domestic Rates Private Rented Housing: Construction

Mr Robin Walker: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Communities and Local Government what estimate he businesses in (a) Worcester and (b) Worcestershire has made of the number of development schemes in will qualify for the full £1,000 business rates discount England of over 100 units in the private rented sector announced in the Autumn Statement of 5 December which are either (a) seeking or (b) have secured 2013. [179812] planning permission. [186087] 177W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 178W

Nick Boles: Information on the number of development 28 commitments from across Government, including schemes in the private rented sector which are seeking commitments relating to employment, education and or have secured planning permission is not held centrally. health. The report also said that the Government intends to produce another report once we have had the opportunity Role of Local Authorities in Housing Supply to assess progress in delivering against those commitments. Independent Review The census report also noted that 61% of this section of the population live in a whole house or bungalow, Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for while 24% live in caravans or other mobile or temporary Communities and Local Government who will be on structures. As I indicated in my written statement of 17 the panel of the review into local authorities’ role in January 2014, Official Report, columns 34-5WS, we are housing supply in addition to Natalie Elphicke and currently considering whether the planning definition Councillor Keith House. [186000] of “travellers” should more specifically refer to those who actually travel and have a mobile or transitory Kris Hopkins: Natalie Elphicke and Keith House will lifestyle. consult widely to ensure that the review of local authorities’ role in housing supply draws on a broad range of experiences and ideas. However, it is too soon to determine EDUCATION attendance of any panel that may be set up to support the review. Academies

Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what estimate he Education what processes he has put in place to enable has made of the total cost of the review into local the Education Funding Agency to scrutinise the authorities’ role in housing supply. [186001] finances of academies and free schools. [186144]

Kris Hopkins: The cost of the review into local authorities’ Mr Timpson: Academies and free schools are subject role in housing supply will be kept to a minimum. to higher levels of transparency and scrutiny than local Natalie Elphicke and Keith House will not be paid to authority maintained schools. lead the review, and will supported by a small group of The Department for Education has put in place a departmental officials. system to scrutinise the finances of academy trusts, including those operating free schools, which reflects Simon Danczuk: To ask the Secretary of State for their status as companies, charities and public bodies. Communities and Local Government how much Because trusts are constituted as companies limited by Natalie Elphicke and Councillor Keith House will be guarantee, they are subject to the full rigour of the paid to lead the review of local authorities’ role in Companies Act. This includes a requirement for the housing supply. [186007] statutory audit of their annual accounts by a registered auditor. They must also comply with the requirements Kris Hopkins: Natalie Elphicke and Keith House will of their funding agreement and the academies financial not be paid to lead the review of local authorities’ role handbook published by the Education Funding Agency in housing supply, but will be reimbursed for travel and (EFA). expenses. Trusts are required to provide a number of financial To place this in context, under the last Administration, returns to the EFA for scrutiny. They must submit their Sir Michael Lyons received almost £400,000 for his audited annual accounts, an audited report on regularity review into local government finance. of expenditure, statements from the trust’s accounting officer on regularity, propriety and value for money and Travellers: Equality a budget forecast return. New trusts must also submit a financial management and governance self-assessment Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for shortly after opening. Communities and Local Government if she will make The EFA adopts a risk-based approach to reviewing an assessment of the potential effect on the these returns to provide assurance over regularity and Government’s equality policies of information from to monitor financial health. Action is taken in response the 2011 census relating to the employment, education to issues or concerns raised by the returns. and health prospects of Gypsies and Travellers. In the event of financial mismanagement at a trust, [185206] the EFA may require it to produce a recovery plan. The EFA may also intervene and commission investigations. Brandon Lewis [holding answer 30 January 2014]: Trusts that fail can face sanctions under arrangements The analysis by the Office for National Statistics ‘What set out in the financial handbook in the form of a Does the 2011 Census tell us about the characteristics financial notice to improve issued by the EFA. This of Gypsy or Irish Travellers in England and Wales?’, describes what an academy trust must do to address its which was published on 21 January 2014, provides failings, and provides a trigger for the suspension of further evidence of inequalities experienced by Gypsies freedoms. and Travellers. In 2010 the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), Education how many staff at the Education Funding established a Ministerial Working Group to look at Agency (EFA) have been responsible for the oversight ways to reduce these inequalities. The Working Group of finances of academies and free schools in each year published a progress report in April 2012 which includes since the EFA was established. [186147] 179W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 180W

Mr Timpson: The division responsible for the oversight Defibrillators: Eastleigh of the finances of academies within the Education Funding Agency (EFA) is the External Assurance division. Mike Thornton: To ask the Secretary of State for The headcount for the division is as follows: Education how many (a) primary schools, (b) secondary (c) 1 April 2012 (creation of the EFA)—39 schools and further education colleges in Eastleigh constituency have defibrillators installed. [185913] 1 April 2013—76 Mr Laws: The information requested is not held Academies: Fraud centrally. It is a matter for individual schools to decide whether to have an automatic external defibrillator. Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Edapt Education when his officials have met (a) Action Fraud and (b) the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for to review and refine the processes for reporting fraud in Education how many times Edapt UK Ltd has been the last year. [185719] referred to in his Department’s emails and written correspondence in each of the last 12 months; and how Mr Timpson: The Head of the Department for many items of email and written correspondence there Education’s Internal Audit Investigation Team met with have been between his Department and Edapt UK Ltd an official of the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau, over the same period. [185448] the body that receives data input by Action Fraud, on 4 Mr Laws: Information regarding the number of December 2013. references to Edapt UK Ltd in departmental emails and written correspondence, and the number of emails and Children’s Centres: Greater London written correspondence that have been exchanged between the Department for Education and Edapt UK Ltd, in Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for the form requested is not readily available and could be Education how many Sure Start centres closed in obtained only at disproportionate cost. London in each of the last five years. [184655] Education: Finance

Elizabeth Truss: As of 30 November 2013, 423 children’s Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for centres that local authorities have designated as statutory Education pursuant to the answer of 28 January 2014, children’s centres in London were open. Official Report, column 122W, on pupils: per capita There were a further 117 sites which were designated costs, what funding was allocated to each local authority as children’s centres in April 2010 that remained open in each year since 2007-08. [185805] and offering services to families and children as part of Mr Laws: The school revenue funding allocations for a network of children’s centres. each local authority in England in each year between Since April 2010, information from local authorities financial year 2007-08 and financial year 2012-13 are shows that 37 have closed. Two new centres have opened. shown in the following table:

Total allocation (£ million) Local authority 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Barking 147.4 155.5 165.0 177.8 192.1 204.6 Barnet 210.5 221.5 231.4 248.2 256.9 265.9 Barnsley 140.5 145.1 149.3 155.9 155.8 157.8 Bath and N.E Somerset 100.8 104.7 109.0 114.9 115.0 116.7 Bedford Borough1 — — 108.5 116.0 118.0 122.0 Bedfordshire1 249.2 260.1 ———— Bexley 164.7 171.7 178.9 188.6 192.0 196,5 Birmingham 849.8 884.7 920.7 972.5 1,004.9 1,040.7 Blackburn with Darwen 120.6 125.6 129.1 135.1 136.9 139.4 Blackpool 92.6 96.4 98.9 103.3 102.9 105.3 Bolton 191.2 199.2 206.7 217.3 221.7 228.3 Bournemouth 82.8 85.8 89.6 94.2 96.0 98.6 Bracknell Forest 62.9 66.0 69.3 74.2 75.7 78.0 Bradford 369.9 388.0 405.9 431.5 443.9 460.1 Brent 202.1 217.0 227.3 242.3 254.5 263.8 Brighton and Hove 133.2 138.8 145.6 154.4 158.0 162.1 Bristol 220.0 228.7 237.5 251.1 264.1 273.2 Bromley 188.3 196.8 205.9 216.8 222.0 226.6 Buckinghamshire 299.2 313.2 327.3 347.2 348.5 355.2 Bury 118.6 122.8 127.9 134.8 136.1 139.9 Calderdale 140.7 146.9 153.3 163.4 164.6 168.6 Cambridgeshire 317.7 333.1 348.6 369.4 371.1 379.3 Camden 136.1 141.6 148.2 157.3 158.5 161.6 181W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 182W

Total allocation (£ million) Local authority 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Central Bedfordshire1 — — 164.0 172.0 174.3 177.6 Cheshire East1 — — 221.6 233.0 233.9 236.7 Cheshire West and — — 216.6 226.6 227.5 229.4 Chester1 Cheshire1 411.2 425.0 ———— City of London 2.2 2.2 2.3 2.4 2.4 2.4 Cornwall 289.7 301.2 314.3 326.7 327.5 333.2 Coventry 211.3 220.1 229.6 242.7 249.8 257.6 Croydon 226.8 233.1 242.3 254.2 265.6 276.9 Cumbria 299.9 307.2 315.1 326.1 325.0 326.6 Darlington 64.4 64.8 67.9 71.5 72.0 73.4 Derby City 161.6 167.7 175.0 184.5 186.9 192.3 Derbyshire 450.5 472.6 485.3 503.2 500.1 504.6 Devon 381.9 396.6 414.4 436.1 435.6 441.4 Doncaster 193.0 199.4 204.0 212.6 214.3 218.0 Dorset 220.2 226.6 235.4 247.2 248.1 251.5 Dudley 209.2 215.7 222.5 234.6 233.6 237.2 Durham 314.3 326.6 336.2 348.5 349.4 355.4 Ealing 215.0 225.1 236.8 255.7 266.4 278.2 East Riding of Yorkshire 190.0 195.7 202.8 213.1 212.1 214.3 East Sussex 284.4 293.4 306.1 321.7 324.0 330.1 Enfield 230.5 240.5 250.1 265.3 279.3 289.6 Essex 828.3 862.0 892.4 934.8 945.2 963.4 Gateshead 118.3 122.0 126.2 131.9 132.6 134.5 Gloucestershire 337.2 355.6 367.8 382.5 382.4 387.4 Greenwich 197.0 204.8 213.3 224.1 230.7 237.5 Hackney 172.0 177.0 184.6 194.1 202.8 213.2 Halton 88.6 91.5 93.9 98.8 100.7 102.4 Hammersmith and 95.8 98.3 103.1 111.4 115.2 118.9 Fulham Hampshire 723.1 755.0 784.5 824.1 827.3 841.0 Haringey 181.6 189.1 194.8 205.9 213.8 220.1 Harrow 142.5 149.0 155.6 165.0 171.9 178.0 Hartlepool 68.4 69.7 71.2 75.0 75.6 76.3 Havering 159.3 166.1 174.0 183.0 187.1 189.5 Herefordshire 96.5 99.6 102.9 108.1 108.2 110.0 Hertfordshire 672.3 704.7 741.2 782.8 790.9 807.1 Hillingdon 180.2 188.3 198.9 211.8 219.3 227.3 Hounslow 168.4 176.0 183.8 195.6 204.1 213.3 Isle of Wight 81.7 82.8 85.4 89.0 88.6 89.1 Isles of Scilly 2.6 2.7 2.8 3.0 3.0 3.0 Islington 142.5 144.6 149.1 157.2 163.5 166.5 Kensington and Chelsea 68.1 70.3 72.9 78.1 80.8 82.5 Kent 858.3 885.4 922.9 970.6 983.4 1,003.0 Kingston Upon Thames 88.3 92.1 97.8 105.2 108.8 112.1 Kingston-upon-Hull 171.7 176.6 179.7 186.9 189.3 192.9 Kirklees 270.2 283.9 297.7 313.1 314.4 321.4 Knowsley 112.6 114.7 116.6 120.8 119.8 119.9 Lambeth 185.0 197.6 209.1 222.2 232.1 241.6 Lancashire 729.4 749.2 773.7 809.7 816.0 831.0 Leeds 441.5 462.8 479.8 502.8 511.5 526.4 Leicester City 213.9 222.9 231.4 244.8 250.5 257.9 Leicestershire 352.3 370.3 386.2 404.4 405.0 410.9 Lewisham 194.3 199.2 207.3 221.4 234.0 243.8 Lincolnshire 414.7 431.9 447.8 469.1 472.7 478.8 Liverpool 308.4 316.8 326.5 334.6 335.6 340.8 Luton 147.8 152.0 161.1 170.1 175.2 181.1 Manchester 325.5 335.3 346.4 366.7 385.2 403-1 Medway 180.5 185.6 191.5 199.2 200.5 205.6 Merton 101.9 106.0 112.0 120.7 125.1 132.1 Middlesbrough 91.0 92.0 95.8 99.8 101.7 103.2 Milton Keynes 158.9 170.2 180.0 192.7 199.0 206.4 183W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 184W

Total allocation (£ million) Local authority 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

Newcastle Upon Tyne 159.2 164.2 168.9 179.9 182.9 187.8 Newham 271.8 286.9 300.9 319.2 331.7 350.0 Norfolk 458.9 476.8 494.4 517.8 521.1 530.7 North East Lincolnshire 107.3 105.6 108.6 110.9 109.5 109.6 North Lincolnshire 104.1 107.0 110.4 116.1 116.9 118.1 North Somerset 113.6 119.3 124.7 132.3 133.5 136.0 North Tyneside 119.7 123.3 127.3 134.4 135.8 138.4 North Yorkshire 342.3 354.6 367.5 384.3 382.7 385.7 Northamptonshire 409.4 429.9 446.2 469.1 477.4 488.3 Northumberland 188.2 192.0 198.0 203.5 204.5 206.1 Nottingham City 182.1 189.7 195.4 202.6 211.5 219.6 Nottinghamshire 460.9 476.9 492.3 515.7 516.5 524.6 Oldham 178.5 186.6 195.1 205.2 208.7 214.5 Oxfordshire 339.3 350.9 370.6 393.0 398.7 408.3 Peterborough 123.0 127.5 134.0 141.5 146.3 154.6 Plymouth 153.9 159.2 163.7 172.1 175.0 178.9 Poole 72.5 75.5 78.6 82.3 84.1 85.3 Portsmouth 111.9 115.2 119.0 124.7 127.7 130.8 Reading 72.7 75.7 80.4 86.0 88.7 93.1 Redbridge 186.6 197.6 210.8 226.9 238.0 245.8 Redcar and Cleveland 100.5 103.3 106.2 109.4 109.0 109.6 Richmond Upon Thames 95.2 100.8 105.6 112.1 117.1 120.7 Rochdale 154.5 158.8 165.1 171.8 172.6 176.8 Rotherham 190.4 196.5 202.6 210.8 211.5 216.2 Rutland 21.4 22.2 23.4 24.8 24.7 24.9 Salford 148.2 152.0 158.8 164.7 167.9 175.0 Sandwell 216.9 220.5 229.7 242.7 248.2 256.5 Sefton 179.1 182.9 188.1 195.4 195.5 196.9 Sheffield 309.2 324.9 336.0 351.5 353.3 363.3 Shropshire 158.5 163.6 169.5 178.5 178.3 179.7 Slough 95.8 104.4 111.4 120.5 126.3 131.8 Solihull 134.6 140.5 145.9 153.0 155.5 159.4 Somerset 289.1 305.1 314.6 326.7 325.4 329.4 South Gloucestershire 151.9 156.4 162.3 171.1 171.3 172.7 South Tyneside 102.9 105.5 108.1 111.7 111.1 112.0 Southampton 129.4 134.1 138.7 144.7 149.7 154.4 Southend-on-Sea 114.2 117.9 123.2 128.9 130.3 133.9 Southwark 196.4 195.0 200.8 215.6 225.0 235.9 St Helens 116.2 120.1 123.3 126.4 127.3 129.1 Staffordshire 484.2 500.3 516.9 542.8 543.0 550.8 Stockport 164.5 168.7 174.7 184.2 185.3 188.1 Stockton-on-Tees 126.1 130.5 133.9 140.0 141.1 144.4 Stoke-on-Trent 160.2 164.8 169.3 178.6 181.4 187.7 Suffolk 391.1 405.9 421.3 445.3 448.2 457.7 Sunderland 183.0 188.9 192.8 197.9 199.3 201.5 Surrey 583.7 611.1 640.5 682.1 693.9 707.9 Sutton 128.5 134.8 141.5 150.2 154.4 159.0 Swindon 117.9 122.1 128.8 136.9 139.8 144.5 Tameside 1.51.9 156.5 161.0 168.1 170.1 173.6 Telford and Wrekin 107.5 112.9 115.9 120.4 120.4 122.6 Thurrock 101.4 107.0 111.7 117.6 120.5 125.2 Torbay 75.7 78.4 80.8 85.2 85.7 87.4 Tower Hamlets 252.2 262.5 274.4 294.2 305.6 314.2 Trafford 138.6 147.5 155.6 166.2 167.1 171.4 Wakefield 207.2 212.3 218.8 232.3 234.3 238.9 Walsall 195.1 201.6 208.0 219.1 221.9 226.5 Waltham Forest 178.9 186.8 196.7 209.5 220.5 229.3 Wandsworth 155.6 162.7 170.7 182.4 185.8 190.5 Warrington 125.6 130.5 135.6 142.6 143.6 146.4 Warwickshire 304.7 315.3 329.6 346.9 348.1 353.8 West Berkshire 100.1 104.5 109.3 115.2 116.1 117.5 185W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 186W

Total allocation (£ million) Local authority 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

West Sussex 430.1 446.0 464.7 490.4 496.8 506.8 Westminster 105.2 107.4 112.1 121.1 126.3 130.2 Wigan 202.1 208.3 214.8 226.0 225.6 229.7 Wiltshire 258.5 268.6 280.4 294.9 296.8 301.4 Windsor and Maidenhead 79.9 82.3 86.6 92.7 95.4 98.3 Wirral 210.1 215.9 222.5 232.6 235.4 236.1 Wokingham 90.7 94.5 99.4 105.3 106.8 109.2 Wolverhampton 171.1 178.7 184.0 190.6 192.1 198.0 Worcestershire 309.2 324.8 335.6 350.3 349.4 353.8 York 94.4 98.3 101.8 107.8 107.6 109.5

England total 32,211.1 33,460.1 34,777.3 36,601.8 37,169.9 38,039.0 1 From 2009-10; Bedfordshire County Council was replaced by Bedford Borough and Central Bedfordshire; Cheshire County Council was replaced by Cheshire East and Cheshire West and Chester.

These allocations include funding provided for pupils It explains that all concerns relating to Education Funding in reception classes, but the allocations are not apportioned Agency (EFA) funded organisations are taken seriously. to specific year groups within the totals. Up to 2010-11 It states that an investigation will be opened in cases the allocations in the table include the Dedicated Schools where concerns have been raised in good faith and there Grant, Standards Fund Grants and School Standards is sufficient evidence to support them. A link to the Grants. In 2011-12 funding previously allocated through complaints procedure is provided here: Standards Fund and Schools Standards Grants was https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department- added to the Dedicated Schools Grant. From 2011-12 for-education/about/complaints-procedure the allocations include the Dedicated Schools Grant The Academies Financial Handbook makes clear and the Pupil Premium. Allocations for the Dedicated that academy trusts should ensure they have appropriate Schools Grant include allocations for pupils in schools procedures in place for whistleblowing, including making that have converted to academy status since 2008. The sure that all staff are aware to who they can report their Pupil Premium allocations include pupils in all academies. concerns and the way in which such concerns will be treated. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Education for how many institutions the Education Free Schools Funding Agency has exercised its responsibility for financial oversight in each year of its operation. Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for [186145] Education what guidance his Department has issued in the past to potential free school applicants on the Mr Timpson: The following table shows how many freehold and leasehold of school sites. [186111] institutions the Education Funding Agency has exercised financial oversight in each year of its operation: Mr Timpson: We have not issued guidance to potential free school applicants on the freehold and leasehold of Number of open school sites. The current guidance for potential free academies school applicants can be found at: (including free http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/leadership/typesofschools/ schools, studio freeschools/b00222064/apply schools and university technical Number of sixth colleges) form colleges Further Education: Finance 31 March 2012 1,664 94 Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for 31 March 2013 2,823 94 Education how many care leavers will be affected by 1 January 2014 3,835 93 the reduction in funding of 18 year olds announced by the Education Funding Agency. [185948] Education: Fraud Matthew Hancock: The Education Funding Agency (EFA) does not hold data on care leavers by age. The Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for EFA has recently published an impact analysis of the Education what processes he has put in place to enable reduction in funding of 18-year-olds, which is available a whistleblower to generate an Education Funding on the Department for Education’s website at: Agency investigation into alleged financial impropriety. http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/i/impact%20 [186146] assessment.pdf

Mr Timpson: The Department for Education has put Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for in place a complaints procedure on its website, which Education what measures he is considering to mitigate sets out the means by which a complaint can be made to the effects of the reduction in the funding of 18 year the Department. This includes what to do in the event olds announced by the Education Funding Agency. of concerns about financial irregularity or impropriety. [186004] 187W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 188W

Matthew Hancock: The Department for Education is pay a larger percentage point increase than lower earners. looking at various measures that would mitigate the A number of protections were introduced alongside the impact for those institutions worst affected by the proposed contribution increases, including: funding reduction for 18-year-olds as we assess funding 1. Those earning less than £15,000 (full-time equivalent rate) for institutions in the academic year 2014/15. As usual, will pay nothing extra. this will be based on student numbers from the current academic year, so we will not have firm figures until the 2. Those earning up to £21,000 (full-time equivalent) will pay end of February. no more than an extra 1.5% of their pay in total by 2014-15. 3. Higher earners will pay extra, but no more than 5.35% of Grandparents their total pay by 2014-15. The following tables show the salary bands for staff Margot James: To ask the Secretary of State for in the Department for Education for each financial year Education what assessment he has made of the since May 2010. Table 1 shows the salary bands for staff adequacy of grandparents’ current rights of access to who are based outside of London and Table 2 shows their grandchildren; and if he will bring forward the salary bands for staff based in London. Salary legislative proposals to strengthen such rights. [185659] bands for the senior civil service are set centrally by the Cabinet Office. Mr Timpson: The Government recognises that grandparents can play a very important role in children’s Table 1. Salary bands for each financial year since 2010 for those staff lives. While there is no automatic right for grandparents based outside of London to have contact with a child, they may apply for contact £ through the courts in cases where agreement cannot be Grade 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 2013/14 reached within the family itself. The court will take into Executive 17,304- 17,554- 17,804- 18,104- account the circumstances of each individual case and Assistant 17,829 18,079 18,329 18,629 will make a contact order if it decides that it is in the Executive 21,916- 21,916- 21,916- 22,216- child’s best interests to have contact with the applicant. Officer 23,702 23,702 23,702 24,002 However, the Children Act 1989 requires that the court’s Higher 26,800- 26,800- 26,800- 27,100- paramount consideration in making such decisions must Executive 29,650 29,650 29,650 29,950 be the welfare of the child; the Government has no Officer plans to change this fundamental principle. Senior 33,200- 33,200- 33,200- 33,569- Executive 36,862 36,862 36,862 37,232 Wherever possible and appropriate, the Government Officer wants families to resolve disputes without court intervention, Grade 7 45,300- 45,300- 45,300- 45,832- and we are improving the advice and support to help 53,222 53,222 53,222 53,755 them do so. As part of the dispute resolution process, Grade 6 55,431- 55,431- 55,431- 56,083- parents will be encouraged to focus on the needs of 65,187 65,187 65,187 65,839 their child, including the importance to the child of Payband 1, 58,200- 58,200- 58,200- 60,000- ongoing relationships with grandparents. Deputy 117,800 117,800 117,800 117,800 Director Kings Science Academy Payband 2, 82,900- 82,900- 82,900- 84,000- Director 162,500 162,500 162,500 162,500 Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Director 101,500- 101,500- 101,500- 103,000- Education whether his Department considered purchasing General, 208,100 208,100 208,100 208,100 Payband 3 the freehold for the Lidget Green site of the Kings Science Academy. [186112] Table 2. Salary bands for each financial year since 2010 for those staff based in London1 Mr Timpson: Yes. £ Grade 2010/11 2011/12 2012/13 2013/14 Pensions Executive 20,881- 21,131- 21,250- 21,550- Assistant 21,529 21,779 22,329 22,629 Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for Executive 25,287- 25,287- 25,287- 25,587- Education what effect changes in pension contributions Officer 27,402 27,402 27,402 27,702 have had on the take-home pay of officials of his Higher 30,100- 30,100- 30,100- 30,434- Department at (a) AA, (b) AO and LO2, (c) EO and Executive 33,350 33,350 33,350 33,684 LO1, (d) HEO, (e) SEO, (f) 7 and (g) SCS grades Officer and equivalents since May 2010. [186033] Senior 36,700- 36,700- 36,700- 37,109- Executive 40,863 40,863 40,863 41,272 Elizabeth Truss: Lord Hutton outlined in his report Officer the strong case for changing public sector pensions, Grade 7 48,675- 48,675- 48,675- 49,247- saying in his report 57,222 57,222 57,222 57,795 ″ ″ Grade 6 58,470- 58,470- 58,470- 59,162- these costs have generally fallen to the taxpayer . 69,187 69,187 69,187 69,879 The Commission reached the conclusion that 1 There are no separate paybands for senior civil servants who are ″if the Government wishes to make savings in the short-term it based in London will be more effective to increase member contributions rather than alter the benefit structure″. Cabinet Office’s answer to PQ 185222 provides Contributions were increased in April 2012, April information about how the take home pay of those with 2013 and will be increased again in April 2014. The different levels of salaries is affected by the pension increases were tiered by salary, so that higher earners contribution increases. 189W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 190W

Primary Education The new programmes of study, which will come into force in schools from September 2014 for citizenship, Mr Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Education history and geography, provide varied opportunities for if he will categorise the reception class in primary pupils to learn about different cultures and religions schools as part of key stage 1. [185500] which will help foster tolerance and harmony among young people. Elizabeth Truss: The Government consulted last year Pupils: Tagging on a new accountability system for primary schools to raise expectations that no child should fall behind and every child should reach their potential. We proposed to Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for introduce a baseline measure at the start of reception so Education (1) what guidance his Department has schools are held to account for pupil progress including issued to (a) schools and (b) local authorities on the in the key year of reception. We will be responding to use of radio-frequency identification technology (RFID) that consultation shortly. with a Real Time Location System (RTLS) in schools for (i) tracking children and (ii) tagging equipment; if As my hon. Friend is aware, the national curriculum he will place in the Library a copy of such guidance; is currently not mandatory in academies and free schools, and if he will make a statement; [186124] but the early years foundation stage is. (2) what (a) discussions and (b) correspondence Private Education: Offences against Children his Department has had with the Information Commissioner’s office on the compatibility of radio- frequency identification technology with a Real Time Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Location System in schools and the Data Protection Education what steps he is taking to better highlight Act 1988 in the last three years. [186128] past abuse of children in independent boarding schools. [185578] Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education has not issued guidance or made contact with the Information Mr Timpson: We are aware of the allegations of Commissioner’s Office on the use of radio-frequency historic cases of abuse at a number of independent identification technology (RFID) with a Real Time schools. Investigations of these are a matter for the Location System (RTLS) in schools. police and other local agencies to pursue on a case-by-case basis. Science: Teachers We take safeguarding and child protection very seriously, and have been reforming the current system to ensure Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for that it works in the best interests of children and Education how many (a) mathematics, (b) physics, minimises the risk of abuse in schools. The statutory (c) chemistry and (d) biology teachers there are in guidance, “Working Together to Safeguard Children”, each local authority area. [185918] revised in March 2013, put in place a very clear framework for all who work with children, and we do not believe Mr Laws: The information requested for each local there is any excuse for a school to not have a clear idea authority area could be provided only at disproportionate of the structures, policies and procedures needed. cost.

Pupils: Bullying Special Educational Needs

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will make an assessment of the effect of Education (1) whether information from the Autism recent public debate on immigration on the incidence Act 2009 statutory guidance will be included in the of racist bullying of schoolchildren. [185886] final Special Educational Needs Code of Practice; [186013] Elizabeth Truss: The Department for Education does (2) whether the final Special Educational Needs not routinely collect information about the prevalence Code of Practice will refer to National Institute for of racist bullying so it is not possible to make a direct Health and Care Excellence guidance on assessment causal link between the recent public debate on immigration and diagnosis of autism; [186014] and the incidence of racist bullying of school children. (3) if his Department will work with (a) the UK and international research studies show wide variation National Autistic Society and (b) other disability in the likely prevalence of all types of bullying, ranging charities to ensure that educational needs of children from 69% to a more moderate 21%. While this variation and young people with specific impairments are fully can in part be attributed to different survey methodologies reflected in the description of special educational need and research questions, it is more likely to reflect variation in the final Special Educational Needs Code of in individual perceptions of what constitutes bullying. Practice. [186022] The Government has made clear to schools that all forms of bullying, for whatever reason, should never be Mr Timpson: The Department for Education recently tolerated in schools. All schools must have a behaviour consulted publicly on a draft Special Educational Needs policy with measures to prevent and tackle all forms of (SEN) Code of Practice. Revisions are being made to bullying, including racist bullying. Schools are held to the Code of Practice to take account of developments account by Ofsted for the behaviour and safety of their during the passage of the Children and Families Bill pupils and Ofsted inspectors consider pupils behaviour and responses to the consultation, which were from a towards, and respect for, other young people and adults. wide range of organisations in the statutory and voluntary 191W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 192W and community sectors, including those in the SEN and in Geneva last December. The UK has been widely disability field. We will continue to work with those who recognised as a leader in this area, as the first country to must have regard to the Code of Practice and those who produce a National Action Plan and a number of EU support children, young people and families as this is member states have sought our advice for the development taken forward. of their own strategies. We have regularly raised the Once this work is completed a revised Code of Practice importance of Business and Human Rights in discussions will be placed before both Houses of Parliament for with EU partners and will continue to look for opportunities approval. to do so.

Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for China Education what assessment he has made of the need to conduct a review into the feasibility of the single point Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign of appeal for education, health and care plans. [186015] and Commonwealth Affairs how many representations he has received since 2010 from (a) the BBC and (b) Mr Timpson: Government amendments to the Children other broadcasters about the Chinese Government’s and Families Bill were tabled on 31 January providing blocking of BBC television and radio content. [185777] for a review of the redress and complaint arrangements across education, health and social care for children and young people with special educational needs and, Mr Swire: The BBC World Service has made no as part of the review, pilots to test whether the First-tier formal representations to the Foreign and Commonwealth Tribunal (Special Educational Needs and Disability) Office (FCO), nor formally requested our assistance, could make recommendations about the health and regarding Chinese Government blocking of BBC television social care provision set out in Education, Health and and radio content. We are not aware of any other Care plans. representations from other broadcasters.

Conferences

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many international summits he attended in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012; what the cost to the public purse Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for was of his attendance at each such summit; and what Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will list the his carbon footprint was in travelling to each such funding streams his Department has to the Afghan summit. [185752] Government; what the purposes are for the funding in each case; what steps he is taking to ensure that such funds are used by the Afghans for the intended Mr Lidington: The list of overseas engagements attended purposes; and if he will make a statement. [185297] by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the member for Richmond Hugh Robertson: Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Yorks) (Mr Hague), which includes international summits, (FCO) funding to the Afghan Government comes from and the associated cost, is published every quarter on both the Conflict Pool and FCO’s Strategic Programme www.gov.uk Fund. This takes the form of contributions to multilateral In addition to those, the Secretary of State has also trust funds; bilateral financial support; and provision of hosted and attended international summits in the UK, expert assistance to individual departments. FCO funding such as the Cyber Conference and London Conference is directed at supporting progress towards a political on Somalia. settlement, building a viable Afghan state and supporting It is not possible to answer the question in full as security infrastructure. information on carbon footprint in travelling to each The FCO and its partners work rigorously to ensure summit is not held centrally and to collate it would funds are used for the intended purposes and external incur disproportionate cost. evaluation is used where possible. Where funding is in partnership with international organisations such as the Electronic Surveillance UN, they provide independent oversight and assurance. In addition, the presence of UK funded advisers within line Ministries allows for further assurance. Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many occasions Business: Human Rights the Director of Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ), or other GCHQ staff acting Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign on his behalf, has requested ministerial authorisation and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he to approve GCHQ reading the content of e-mails has had with EU counterparts about the Government’s gathered as part of general metadata collection since action plan on business and human rights. [185776] May 2010; and on how many occasions such requests were turned down. [185759] Mr Lidington: We have promoted the UK’s Action Plan with EU counterparts on a number of occasions, Hugh Robertson: It is the long-standing policy of both formal and informal, including in EU meetings successive Governments not to comment on matters of and at the UN Forum on Business and Human Rights intelligence. 193W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 194W

European External Action Service installed for uranium enrichment. Only around half of these are currently operating. Under the Joint Plan of Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Action, which came into force on 20 January 2014, Iran Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the has agreed not to make any further advances in its answer of 24 January 2014, Official Report, column activities at the Natanz Fuel Enrichment Plant and 340W, on EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs Fordow. This includes not installing further centrifuges; and Security Policy, on what date he used the aeroplane bringing into operation any centrifuges installed but charted by the European External Action Service; and not being used to enrich; and limiting production to for what purpose. [185210] replacement of failed machines.

Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member and Commonwealth Affairs whether IAEA inspectors for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), used an aeroplane will be granted access to Iran’s Parchin facility under chartered by the European External Action Service the P5+1-Iran Joint Plan of Action. [186115] (EEAS) on a return flight from Tunisia after a ’Friends of Syria’ meeting in the February 2012. This was at no Hugh Robertson: The Joint Plan of Action does not cost to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. grant IAEA inspectors access to the Parchin military base. This issue is being discussed as part of the IAEA’s Iran separate discussions with Iran on the possible military dimensions to Iran’s nuclear programme. We welcome Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for the recent signature of a Joint Statement on a Framework Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the for Co-operation between Iran and the IAEA and hope answer of 27 January 2014, Official Report, column that this will soon include allowing the agency access to 428W, on Iran, what representations he has made to his Parchin. Iranian counterpart about recent remarks that the P5+1 are misrepresenting Iran’s commitments under the Joint Plan of Action. [185910] Pakistan

Hugh Robertson: The Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the and Commonwealth Affairs what representations the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), discussed Government has made to the government of Pakistan the entry into force of the Geneva agreement with on the decision of the Federal Shariat Court in Foreign Minister Zarif on 21 January. The E3 plus 3 Pakistan to order the government there to implement and Iran reached an agreement on implementation of death as the only penalty for blasphemy. [185823] the Geneva deal on 12 January. This makes very clear the obligations of the parties. Hugh Robertson: It is our long standing policy to oppose the death penalty in all circumstances. The Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Prime Minister reiterated this to the House during Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the questions on 29 January. Ministers regularly raise the answer of 27 January 2014, Official Report, column issue of the death penalty in Pakistan at the highest 428W, on Iran, what measures the Iranian authorities levels both in terms of our principled stance and in need to take to ensure the exclusively peaceful nature of supporting cases of British nationals facing the death its nuclear programme. [185919] penalty overseas. We also continue to regularly raise the issue of the blasphemy laws at a senior level with the Hugh Robertson: To ensure the exclusively peaceful authorities in Pakistan. The Senior Minister of State, nature of its nuclear programme, Iran must take action my noble Friend the right hon. Baroness Warsi most on all of the key elements of its nuclear programme that recently raised our opposition to the death penalty with represent a proliferation risk. This includes addressing the Chief Minister of the Punjab on 27 January. concerns about the fuel cycle (enrichment levels, capacity and stockpile), heavy water-related activity, research and development as well as agreeing to enhanced Pay monitoring and verification measures (including ratifying the additional protocol). The steps Iran has taken under Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for the Joint Plan of Action, which came into force on 20 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what effect January, are an important first step. But Iran needs to changes in pension contributions have had on the take further significant and sustained steps before the take-home pay of officials at AO, LO2 and equivalent international community can have full confidence in the grades in his Department compared to May 2010; exclusively peaceful nature of its nuclear programme. [185227] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign (2) what effect changes in pension contributions have and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received had on the take-home pay of officials at AA and on Iran’s possession of advanced IR-1 centrifuges. equivalent grades in his Department compared to May [186114] 2010; [185231] (3) what effect changes in pension contributions have Hugh Robertson: The IAEA’s November 2013 report had on the take-home pay of officials at EO, LO1 and on Iran’s nuclear programme to the Board of Governors equivalent grades in his Department compared to May verified that Iran currently has 18,458 IR-1 centrifuges 2010. [185232] 195W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 196W

Hugh Robertson: I refer the hon. Member to the Re-employment answer given by the Minister for Civil Society, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for (Mr Hurd), today. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many staff This Cabinet Office answer to UIN 185222 provides who have been made redundant or retired from his information about how the take home pay of those with Department have subsequently been re-employed by different levels of salaries is affected by the pension his Department since May 2010. [185565] contribution increases. Hugh Robertson: I have set out here the details for the Press Freedom Foreign and Commonwealth Office. This information is current as of 31 December 2013. Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign May 2010 to December 2013 and Commonwealth Affairs how many representations have been made by (a) officials and (b) Ministers to Number of employees made redundant then re-employed: 0 foreign governments since 2010 about freedom of Number of employees who retired then re-employed: 14 expression in the media. [185779] Total: 14. Data are taken from the FCO HR database on Mr Lidington: Freedom of expression is an essential 31 December 2013. The individuals have been recruited element of democracy and human rights, and one of to undertake specialist roles, for example reviewing the key human rights priorities at the Foreign and FCO archives. Commonwealth Office (FCO). All Ministers regularly It should be noted that: engage bilaterally on freedom of expression, and raise Staff re-employed within 28 days of being made redundant individual cases when appropriate. will have repaid their entire redundancy package; We are unable to provide details of the precise number Staff re-employed within six months of being made redundant of representations made to foreign Governments since since December 2010 will have had to repay part of their 2010. This information is not held centrally and can be compensation; collated only at disproportionate costs. More information Staff re-employed following retirement will have their pension about the FCO’s representations on freedom of expression abated so that the total value of their pension and new salary will will be available in this year’s Annual Human Rights be the same as their salary before retirement; and Report, to be published on 10 April 2014. The FCO along with the rest of the civil service does not operate a compulsory age retirement policy and has not done so Procurement since March 2010. The Government reformed the Compensation Scheme Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for in 2010 so as to reduce costs and to require the recovery Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what proportion of compensation payments where staff are dismissed of his Department’s overall procurement spend for and re-employed. Across Government, savings from each of the last three financial years was spent (a) in work force reductions have resulted in savings of £2.2 billion joint procurement exercises with other Departments compared to 2009-10. and (b) shared between different organisations within the same Department group. [185397] Russia Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) is committed to working collaboratively with Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign other Government Departments. The FCO has several and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions his shared contracts. Notable examples are for the movement Department has had with the Russian authorities (a) (b) of personal effects overseas with Pickfords Move about security against terrorism and human Management Limited, and the FCO language school rights at the Winter Olympics. [185775] via Language Services Direct. These are opened to as many Government Departments as possible. It is not Mr Lidington: The information requested is as follows: possible to answer the question in full as this information (a) We are in regular contact with the Russian authorities is not held centrally and to collate it would incur and are working with them on their preparations for the disproportionate cost. Sochi Winter Olympics and Paralympics, including security issues. We continually review the security situation and Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for update our travel advice for British nationals accordingly. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs for each of the (b) The promotion and protection of human rights last three financial years how much and what continues to be a key priority in our relationship with proportion of his Department’s procurement was Russia. We regularly make clear to Russia that human conducted using e-procurement tools; and what the rights are universal and should apply equally to all. We value of such contracts was. [185403] have also expressed our concerns regarding recent legislation prohibiting the promotion of “non-traditional sexual Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office relations”among minors. We work to improve the situation uses a number of e-procurement tools ranging from on the ground by supporting relevant projects and the G-cloud to online mini-competition via the Government development of civil society in Russia. We are working Procurement Service frameworks. However, relevant spend with the International Olympic Committee and British data categorised by procurement channel is not held Olympic Association to ensure the Winter Games take centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate place in the spirit of the Olympic Charter and are free cost. from discrimination. 197W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 198W

South Sudan matters with the South Sudanese Foreign Minister and a wide range of regional leaders during the recent Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for African Union summit, including raising with the Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations Minister of Uganda the role of those Ugandan troops he has made to the South Sudanese Government about who have been fighting alongside South Sudanese forces. persecuted religious groups. [185343] Staff

Mark Simmonds: We are not aware of evidence that Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for religious groups have been targeted during the recent Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many personnel outbreak of violence in South Sudan, or of any significant of each grade are employed in his Department’s Devolution religious persecution in the country previously. However Unit; and what the total cost of the unit to the public we have been deeply concerned about the level of inter- purse has been since its creation. [185818] communal violence that has taken place, often with an Mr Lidington: The Devolution Unit was established ethnic dimension. Religious leaders have an important in September 2012 to make it easier for the Devolved role to play in calming tensions and promoting Administrations to interact with the Foreign and reconciliation. Commonwealth Office (FCO), and to advise FCO posts on the devolution settlement. It consists of two officers Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for of B3 and C5 grade. The pay range of a B3 officer is Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment between £21,646 and £27,658. The pay range of a C5 the Government has made of the political stability of officer is between £33,075 and £40,905, South Sudan. [185346]

Mark Simmonds: We welcome the signing of a cessation PRIME MINISTER of hostilities agreement in Addis Ababa on 23 January Chiefs of Staff 2014, although it is clear that this is only the beginning of the peace process. More than half a million South Mr David Davis: To ask the Prime Minister if he will Sudanese have been displaced from their homes and publish the minutes of any meetings between him and they and many others are in urgent need of humanitarian the Chief of Defence Staff which took place in his assistance. There has not yet been a full end to fighting constituency between 11 May 2010 and 31 May 2011. on the ground. We are urging all sides to ensure that [185914] their forces put down their weapons immediately. We are continuing to engage with both parties to The Prime Minister: I refer my right hon. Friend to facilitate dialogue, in support of mediation by the regional the answer I gave to him on 17 January 2014, Official Inter-Governmental Authority on Development (IGAD), Report, column 725W. and in close coordination with partners in the European Union and the Troika. We are also providing a supporting role in establishment of the IGAD-led monitoring HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION mechanism which is intended to oversee the implementation Parliamentary Tours of the cessation of hostilities. During my meetings with Ethiopian, Kenyan, Sudanese, Ugandan and South Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the hon. Member for Sudanese Foreign Ministers, I made clear that the cessation Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing of hostilities must lead to a genuinely inclusive political the House of Commons Commission, how many tours reconciliation process that strengthens the unity of South of the Palace of Westminster were conducted by Blue Sudan. We are ready to support this process fully when Badge guides in each year since 2011; and how many talks resume on 7 February 2014. such tours have been so allocated for 2014. [185589]

Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State John Thurso: The following table details the number for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps she of paid-for tours of the Palace of Westminster visitor is taking to maintain the recent ceasefire in South route for the last three financial years (including a Sudan. [185553] forecast for remainder of 2013-14), with a forecast for 2014-15. Mark Simmonds: The recently signed Cessation of 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 Forecast Hostilities Agreement provides for a monitoring and 2014-15 verification mechanism to oversee its implementation, which will be formed under the leadership of the regional Number of 8,520 8,892 9,578 5,244 Inter-Governmental Authority on Development (IGAD), guided tours with broader international participation. With our Troika The increase in 2013-14 is largely due to the extension partners, we have been supporting the establishment of of paid-for tours to the December and February recesses. this mechanism, and we have provided an expert to the advance party of the ceasefire oversight committee The forecast reduction in 2014-15 is largely due to the (″Joint Technical Committee″) which arrived in Juba on forthcoming introduction of audio guided tours alongside 2 February 2014. guided tours, in line with the policy of offering paying visitors a richer range of tours at different prices. We continue to engage diplomatically with all partners and in the region to encourage respect for the cessation Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the hon. Member for of hostilities, and to establish a political process to Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross representing, reach a full peace agreement. I held discussions on these the House of Commons Commission, what recent 199W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 200W discussions the Commission has had on the fact per employee and (d) turnover rate was for each staff that Palace of Westminster guides conduct Royalty and survey conducted in the last 10 years. [185865] Splendour, and Tactile tours but are excluded from other non-Member tours. [185590] John Thurso: The following table outlines the available data. These have been gathered through staff surveys John Thurso: The Commission has not discussed this and as part of the work force information that is specific point, but in July 2012 agreed to increase the considered regularly by the Management Board. Figures number and range of tours that were available to paying for earlier years are not available. visitors, including specialist tours and the introduction of audio-guided tours alongside guided tours. Percentage In-house guides conduct Member-sponsored tours of (c) Average the Palace of Westminster visitor route, including the (b) Proud days lost new tactile tours for blind and partially-sighted visitors. (a) Level to work for to sickness They have also piloted the ‘specialist’ Art and Architecture of job the House per (d) tours (“Royalty and Splendour” and “Contemporary satisfaction Service employee Turnover Portraiture”). Established paid-for tours (on Saturdays, 2005-06 n/a 89 n/a n/a non-sitting Fridays, and during recesses) are conducted 2006-07 n/a 87 7.8 n/a by Blue Badge guides under a contract secured by 2007-08 62 88 7.2 8.3 public tender. 2008-09 65 79 7.8 7.7 Blue Badge guides are trained to Institute of Tourist 2009-10 63 82 7.1 9.5 Guiding level 4 (covering, traditionally, a Tourist Board 2010-11 62 81 7.1 9.0 area). In-house guides are trained to Institute of Tourist 2011-12 63 86 6.6 11.0 Guiding level 2 (site specific visitor attraction). 2012-13 58 88 6.7 10.7 The use of the two groups of guides for these different Notes: purposes is designed to best meet the requirements of 1. (a)This question only appeared in staff surveys from 2008. different types of visitor in a cost-effective way. 2. (b) Due to changes in reporting conventions in 2009 and 2012 data are not strictly comparable over time, although this will not affect general trends. Mr Nigel Evans: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, how much (a) Blue Badge guides and (b) Palace of Westminster BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS guides are paid per tour of the Palace. [185591] Adult Education

John Thurso: The professionally qualified Blue Badge Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, guides are paid per day or half day, rather than per tour, Innovation and Skills what his strategy is for devolving on the basis of nationally agreed rates. Their current skills funding in Wales and Scotland; and if he will fees are £230.00 per day for English Language tours and make a statement. [185917] £265.00 for foreign language tours. During a day a guide will conduct four tours, so are paid the equivalent Matthew Hancock: Skills funding is devolved to Wales of £57.50 or £66.25 per tour. and Scotland under the Barnett formula. For Member-sponsored tours when Parliament is sitting, the current policy is that guides are drawn Apprentices primarily from serving or retired House staff. Palace of Westminster ‘in-house’ guides are booked and paid on a Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, ‘per tour’ basis. These guides are currently paid £33.15 for Innovation and Skills what his most recent estimate is tours during ’’working hours’ (up until 5 pm) and of the number of apprentices progressing to level 5 £50.00 for tours which take place in the evening, normally qualifications. [186132] as part of another Member-sponsored event. The difference in pay reflects the higher level and Matthew Hancock: Final data for the 2012/13 academic formal nature of the training and qualification of Blue year show that there were 13,000 funded Apprentices Badge guides. The higher level of training includes participating on a Higher Apprenticeship (Level 4+) in more experience of the mechanics of guiding and detailed the 2012/13 academic year. Of these 6,000 were at knowledge of London as a whole (which fits in with the Level 5. requirements of paid-for tours visitors), as well as an Apprentices: Shipping independent parliamentary qualification. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Staff Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on access to public funding for the Maritime Skills Chris Ruane: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Alliance in designing apprenticeships in partnership Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House with the maritime industry. [185962] of Commons Commission, pursuant to the answer of 23 January 2014, Official Report, columns 287-8W, on Matthew Hancock: BIS officials are in discussion House of Commons staff, what the (a) level of job with a range of employers and other organisations who satisfaction, (b) proportion of people proud to work have expressed an interest in becoming a trailblazer to for the House Service, (c) average days lost to sickness develop new apprenticeship standards for occupations 201W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 202W in their industries. One of those organisations is the Widespread support was received in respect of the Maritime Skills Alliance but no decision has been made measure to remove the power for a competent authority yet on whether the alliance’s proposals are suitable for to authorise an insolvency practitioner. As no competent development through a trailblazer project. authority has been designated, the Secretary of State Employers in all sectors can apply for access to skills for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend funding to develop and design new skills provision to the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), is the de create the training schemes they need to grow their facto competent authority and will no longer directly business through the employer ownership pilot (EOP). authorise insolvency practitioners. Many proposals that have been approved for EOP are In respect of the measure to allow specialised linked to apprenticeships and in the 2012/13 academic authorisation of insolvency practitioners, there was general year, 1,200 apprenticeship starts were created through support when the measure was discussed with interested the EOP. parties, including two of the larger recognised professional bodies (which authorise insolvency practitioners), insolvency Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for practitioners from a range of firms, and creditors. During Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions Ministers pre-legislative scrutiny, concerns were raised about how in his Department have had with representatives of the the measure would apply to Scottish partnership insolvency Scottish Government on maritime apprenticeships; and which we addressed by amending the clause before if he will ensure that further such discussions take place introduction. Concerns about the principle of allowing in the near future. [185963] specialisation were also raised by a body representing insolvency practitioners and two recognised professional Matthew Hancock: Apprenticeships policy is a devolved bodies. There has also been support for the principle of matter and it is for the devolved Administrations of specialised authorisation, including from one of the Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales to determine larger professional bodies. how they manage their own schemes. Scotland has traditionally had a separate apprenticeship programme. Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for I discuss apprenticeships with my Scottish, Welsh and Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has Northern Irish counterparts from time to time. made of the effect of partial licensing of insolvency Business: Loans practitioners on small businesses seeking financial advice. [185386] Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he has taken Jenny Willott: The Secretary of State for Business, to implement the recommendations of the Tomlinson Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member Report into Banks’ lending practices. [185180] for Twickenham (Vince Cable), has not conducted a specific assessment of the effect of specialised authorisation Matthew Hancock: Mr Tomlinson’s report makes for insolvency practitioners on small businesses seeking serious allegations about RBS’s treatment of businesses financial advice. Views were invited on the proposal in financial difficulties and calls for a thorough and from interested parties, including business bodies and independent investigation. On receipt, the Secretary of creditor representatives. State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), referred the report to the financial services regulators. The Financial Olympic Games: Russia Conduct Authority (FCA) has subsequently announced the appointment of Promontory Financial Group and Mazars to carry out an independent skilled persons Mr Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, review of the allegations against RBS using powers in Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is section 166 of the Financial Services and Markets Act taking to promote UK business at the Winter Olympic 2000. The first stage of the review will include consideration Games in Sochi. [185433] of whether any poor practices identified are widespread and systematic. If this is the case, stage two will identify Michael Fallon: Over 60 UK companies have secured the root cause of these issues and make recommendations contracts relating to the Sochi Olympic Winter Games, to address any shortcomings identified. Separately, the many of which have received support from UK Trade & FCA has written open letters to the other banks seeking Investment (UKTI). confirmation that they are satisfied they do not engage in any of the poor practices alleged in the report. During Games time in Sochi, UKTI will host a business networking event and a programme of meetings Insolvency: Licensing and briefings to expose UK companies to future sporting events organising and bid committees and other Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for stakeholders. This activity will allow UK companies to Business, Innovation and Skills what representations directly engage with senior individuals overseeing the he has received (a) in favour and (b) against the procurement of products and services for large budget provisions in the draft Deregulation Bill on the major sports events. licensing of insolvency practitioners. [185385] Efforts on Sochi form part of UKTI’s ongoing Olympic Legacy Strategy maximising the opportunity of major Jenny Willott: Representations have been received events to promote UK capability and attract investment. from a range of interested parties relating to the licensing The programme has delivered £11.06 billion benefit to of insolvency practitioners. the UK economy to date. 203W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 204W

Postal Services In addition to their public funding, sector skills councils undertake a range of commercial business activities Ian Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for funded by employers in the sectors they represent. Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what assessment he Details of their commercial income will be shown in has made of the potential effect on the sustainability of their annual accounts. the universal postal service of the extension of end-to- Sector Skills Councils: Shipping end delivery services by providers other than the universal postal service provider; [185874] Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what assessment he has made of the potential Business, Innovation and Skills which sector skills council effect on the universal postal service of operators other is responsible for the maritime industry. [186050] than the universal postal service provider extending end-to-end services in (a) Manchester, (b) Liverpool, Matthew Hancock: The marine sector is not covered (c) Edinburgh, (d) Glasgow and (e) Birmingham; by any of the sector skills councils. [185875] Space Technology (3) if he will request Ofcom to expedite its review of the effect of end-to-end competition in the postal Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for services market in order to ensure that the universal Business, Innovation and Skills what progress has been service obligation is protected. [185876] made on publication of a National Space Policy; and if he will make a statement. [185585] Jenny Willott: Under the Postal Services Act 2011, Parliament transferred regulatory responsibility for the Mr Willetts: A National Space Policy will be developed postal services sector from Postcomm to Ofcom as an during 2014, which together with the UK Civil Space independent regulator and gave Ofcom the primary Strategy, which was published in 2012 and the National duty to secure the provision of the universal postal Space Security Policy, will set out UK Government service in the United Kingdom. space policy. It is Ofcom’s responsibility to monitor any effects of market competition on the provision of the universal Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for service in the UK. Parliament has given Ofcom the Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has powers to monitor market developments and to intervene made of the progress made by the space sector against if the provision of the universal service is ever at serious the Government’s Space Innovation Growth Strategy; risk from the effects of postal competition. and if he will make a statement. [185641] Ofcom has put in place an effective and ongoing Mr Willetts: The Space Innovation and Growth Strategy monitoring regime to track the financial sustainability of 2010 was developed by industry and has helped drive of the universal postal service. the Government’s space policy since 2011 which has In March 2013, following a consultation, Ofcom seen the establishment of the UK Space Agency, fresh published guidance on its approach to assessing impacts investment in the European Space Agency and national of end-to-end competition in the postal sector. In its projects such as the Satellite Applications Catapult November 2013 annual monitoring report Ofcom Centre to promote growth in space services. Successes considered: include export orders to Brazil, Russia and Canada and ″it is not necessary to impose any additional regulatory conditions the establishment of a strong ESA presence in the UK on end-to-end operators to secure the ongoing provision of a at Harwell-Oxford. An update of the 2010 strategy, universal postal service at this point in time″. titled the Space Growth Action Plan was published by If Ofcom’s ongoing monitoring regime does not prompt industry in November 2013. I welcome its ambition to the need for any earlier assessment, it will carry out a grow the British space sector from £9 billion now to £40 full review of the impact of market competition towards billion by 2030. The UK Space Agency is co-ordinating the end of 2015 as a matter of course. This will ensure a Government response to those actions that requested that the regulator has made a detailed assessment of the Government support. I will publish this response after actual and potential impact of emerging end-to-end it has been agreed across Government. competition based on a better understanding of how In addition, a BIS/Cabinet Office “Challenger Business” the postal market is developing. More information about programme is under way which responds to the needs of Ofcom’s regulatory regime can be found on its website: groundbreaking UK businesses offering new technologies, www.ofcom.org.uk innovative products and vigorous business models. Businesses in space and satellite applications contributed Sector Skills Councils to this programme during an event that I chaired on 22 November 2013.

Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much (a) public Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his and (b) private funding is provided to each sector skills Department has made of the potential contribution of council in the UK. [185964] space and satellite industries to UK defence and security. [185642] Matthew Hancock: The total public funding provided to sector skills councils in the UK from the UK Commission Mr Willetts: The UK is an innovator in delivering for Employment and Skills for 2012-13 was £45,361,882 defence and security services from space. The UK and the projected funding for 2013-14 is £38,571,309. space and satellite industry already makes a significant 205W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 206W contribution to UK defence and security through the conversations take place before investors make contact provision of secure satellite communications via Paradigm with the west midlands, rather than when they have Secure Communications (now part of the Airbus Defence decided on a location. and Space Division of the Airbus Group). With respect to the west midlands, UKTI has a west The Government continues to assess whether and midlands office, where the regional director, representing how UK industry could contribute more. The context both trade and investment, for the west midlands is in which this is considered will be set out in the forthcoming based. The focus of the team is international trade. National Space Security Policy. Working with them is an Investment Services Team (IST) partnership manager for the LEPs that broadly Student Opportunity Fund correspond to the west midlands, who undertakes liaison and support work with LEPs and other local investment Mrs Ellman: To ask the Secretary of State for bodies. Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had on proposals to reduce funding for the Student Opportunity Fund. [185993] WORK AND PENSIONS Mr Willetts: We are currently working determining allocations for all of our budgets for the next two years Children: Maintenance and will set out our plans in the usual way. Technology: Training Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions pursuant to his answer of 23 January 2014, Official Report, column 263W, on children’s Mr Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, maintenance, which particular Project Change Lifecycle Innovation and Skills what training initiatives his Framework criteria will govern his Department’s assessment Department has launched to increase the skills needed of its operational readiness to start the process of Child by young people in new high technology enterprises. Support Agency case closure. [185384] [185449] Steve Webb: The standard criteria by which all DWP Matthew Hancock: The Information Economy Strategy, Change is assessed prior to go-live with a change are published in June 2013, showed employers from all very detailed. The project provides a wealth of evidence sectors face difficulties finding people with the right IT to stakeholders to meet the criteria confirming that: skills. The Information Economy sector council has set The business has the necessary resources and that it is ready to up an industry-led working group to agree concrete implement the services and the business change; actions by the spring to address gaps in digital skills. There are management and organisation controls to manage The Government has already taken steps to address the project through implementation and operation; this issue. To ensure young people have a strong grounding All parties have agreed plans for training, communication, in computational thinking and programming skills we roll-out, production, release and support; are introducing a new computing curriculum into schools All contractual arrangements are up-to-date; in September which is more rigorous than existing ICT The business case has been quality assured; learning. We have also recently announced £40 million funding over 2014-15 and 2015-16 for 20,000 more Benefits will be realised; Higher Apprenticeships, more than doubling current All necessary testing is completed (including business integration volumes. This includes the IT Higher Apprenticeship, and user assurance testing) to the business’s satisfaction and that the business is ready to receive implementation; developed as an alternative route into the sector for young people with A-Levels or equivalent qualifications. There are feasible and tested contingency and reversion arrangements, and longer term business continuity and recovery UK Trade and Investment: West Midlands plans are in place; All remaining risks and issues are being managed effectively and do not threaten implementation and evaluate the risk of Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for proceeding with the implementation of the business change if Business, Innovation and Skills how many staff in there are any unresolved issues; UKTI West Midlands have been tasked with Lessons and best practice from assurance reviews and earlier supporting inward investment into the region in each projects have been considered and actioned; and any new lessons of the last five years. [185432] captured; Agree funding draw downs and deliverables to either key Michael Fallon: Figures for the regional development milestones or the next gate. agency responsible for the west midlands in 2009 and 2010 are not available. From 2011 UK Trade and Investment Departmental Responsibilities (UKTI) has supported delivery of inward investment to the UK, by working with local investment bodies, such Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for as local enterprise partnerships. Work and Pensions what discussions his Department UKTI and its partners work with a very wide range has held with officials from HM Treasury in the last of foreign-based companies, investors, sovereign wealth four months. [185549] funds and governments to attract inward investment into the UK. At any one time, UKTI and its partners Esther McVey: Officials in the Department for Work may be engaged with several tens of thousands of and Pensions and HM Treasury have met regularly over organisations, a number of which will have regard the last four months to discuss a broad range of issues to potential investment in the west midlands. The key and will continue to do so. 207W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 208W

Employment and Support Allowance: Warrington The above list is not exhaustive, as officials also have ongoing contact with stakeholders through working groups, roundtables, open workshops, and other collective Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work forums. and Pensions how many people in Warrington North constituency have (a) been placed in the work-related activity group for employment and support allowance, Jobcentre Plus (b) appealed against a decision to place them in that group and (c) died before their appeal was against a Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for decision to place them in that group was heard or in the Work and Pensions what evaluation his Department last 12 months thereafter in each of the last three years. has undertaken of Jobcentre Plus support contracts; [186129] and if he will make a statement. [186106]

Mike Penning: The information requested for part Esther McVey: Jobcentre Plus Support Contract is (a) is shown in the following table. funded using money from the Flexible Support Fund (FSF) therefore it has not been evaluated separately. Employment and support allowance recipients in the work related The FSF is evaluated as part of the Jobcentre Plus offer. activity group, Warrington North constituency: May 2013 Total Jobseeker’s Allowance Warrington North constituency 840 Notes: Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Incapacity benefit was replaced by employment support allowance Work and Pensions whether jobseekers whose benefit (ESA) on the grounds of incapacity from October 2008. has been sanctioned but who otherwise meet the 3. Phase of ESA claim is only available from February 2010 onwards. conditions for entitlement to jobseeker’s allowance are The phase is derived from payment details held on the source system. included in the claimant count; and if he will make a Where the claimant is not in receipt of any benefit payment then the statement. [186109] stage of benefit is shown as unknown. 4. This information is published at: https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/dwp-statistics- Esther McVey: Yes, jobseekers who otherwise meet tabulation-tool the conditions for entitlement to jobseeker’s allowance are included in the claimant count. The information requested for parts (b) and (c) is not readily available and to provide it would incur disproportionate cost. Occupational Pensions Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Financial Services Work and Pensions when he expects the Office of Fair Trading to complete its review of legacy pension schemes; and if he will make a statement. [185422] Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when (a) Ministers and (b) Steve Webb: As part of their report into the defined officials in his Department have met (i) Prudential, (ii) contribution workplace pensions market, the Office Fidelity Investments, (iii) the Association of British of Fair Trading (OFT) agreed with the Association Insurers and (iv) the Investment Management of British Insurers that an audit should take place of Association in the last four months; and for what pre-2001 and high-charging pension schemes. The OFT purpose. [185421] report stated that this audit should be complete by the end of December 2014. We welcome this audit and look Steve Webb: The information is as follows: forward to its launch in due course. (a) Details of meetings with external organisations held by DWP Ministers are published quarterly, three months in arrears, Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for on GOV.UK as part of this Government’s transparency drive. Work and Pensions what recent discussion he has had Information relating to October to December 2013 is due to be with the Office of Fair Trading on the review of legacy published in April 2014. pension schemes; and if he will make a statement. (b) Department for Work and Pensions officials have not met [185423] Fidelity Investments in the last four months. In the last four months officials have met representatives from Prudential five Steve Webb: We welcome the audit of pre-2001 and times, representatives from the Association of British Insurers six high-charging pension schemes agreed by the Office of times, and representatives from the Investment Management Association three times. Fair Trading (OFT) and the Association of British Insurers (ABI). I have met with the OFT twice with Additionally, in the last four months officials have regard to this topic, and have also met with the proposed met with representatives from the NAPF, the CBI, chair for the audit. DWP officials have also been part of Which?, AgeUK and the TUC around 20 times. the discussions between the OFT and ABI. We look Discussions have covered general strategic issues on forward to the launch of the audit in due course. likely future trends; developments affecting the pensions and insurance markets (including implementation of Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for the ABI Code of Conduct on retirement choices); defined Work and Pensions pursuant to the written statement contribution quality; proposals outlined in the consultation of 23 January 2014, on pensions, whether he will on charging; automatic transfers; decumulation; and introduce a pensions charge cap inclusive of transaction defined ambition pensions. costs; and if he will make a statement. [185426] 209W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 210W

Steve Webb: The consultation on charging closed on Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for November 28 last year, and received 166 written responses. Work and Pensions pursuant to the written statement This is an important and complex consultation that of 23 January 2014, on Pensions, when he expects to requires our proper consideration to ensure we get it bring forward proposals for a pensions charge cap right. The decision on whether to introduce a cap, and before Parliament; and if he will make a statement. the design of any such cap, will be included in our [185548] response to the consultation, to be published in due course. Steve Webb: The consultation on charging closed on 28 November last year, and received 166 written responses. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for This is an important and complex consultation that Work and Pensions what recent assessment his requires our proper consideration to ensure we get it Department has made of the number of pension pots right, and our proposals will be published in due course. in pension schemes with an annual management charge We remain committed to making sure pension savers in excess of 1 per cent; and if he will make a statement. get good value for money. [185427]

Steve Webb: The 2012 DWP pensions landscape and Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for charging survey looked at schemes where members paid Work and Pensions pursuant to the written statement charges as a percentage of funds under management. of 23 January 2014, on Pensions, if he will publish the This report found that within this group 6% of trust-based responses to the Government consultation on charging schemes and 10% of contract-based schemes had an in workplace pensions. [185550] annual management charge in excess of 1%. Steve Webb: We will publish the names of all those Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for who responded to our consultation and will include Work and Pensions if he will publish a code of conduct extract from these where appropriate in our response to on the disclosure of pension charges to employers; and the consultation. We are considering whether there is if he will make a statement. [185428] sufficient public interest to publish the responses to the consultation, particularly given the high volume of response. Steve Webb: The consultation on charging closed on November 28 last year, and received 166 written responses. Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State This is an important and complex consultation that for Work and Pensions if he will make it his policy to requires our proper consideration to ensure we get it introduce a pension scheme for those beginning right. The consultation included options to improve employment for the first time which would commence disclosure for employers and we will bring forward at a nominal monthly sum, increase automatically each further disclosure proposals in our response, to be year on a compound basis but have an opt out basis. published in due course. [185551]

Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Steve Webb: The introduction of automatic enrolment Work and Pensions what recent estimate he has made has been very successful. Since October 2012 over of the cost to the public purse of the consultation 2.55 million workers have been automatically enrolled announced by his Department on pension charge cap into a workplace pension by more than 5,400 employers published on 30 October 2013; and if he will make a and so far, more than 90% have remained in their statement. [185429] scheme. Steve Webb: This information is not held centrally by The minimum contribution levels for all defined the Department and could be supplied only at contribution arrangements used for automatic enrolment disproportionate cost. will be phased in to help both employers and individuals adjust gradually to the additional costs of the reforms. The following table shows the arrangements for phased Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for contributions between October 2012 and October 2018. Work and Pensions pursuant to the written statement of 23 January 2014, on Pensions, whether the delay Minimum contributions (as percentage of a band of earnings1) announced to the introduction of a charge cap on Percentage workplace pension scheme also extends to his Department’s Tax 2 planned changes regarding the governance of pension Worker Employer relief Total schemes; and if he will make a statement. [185547] October 2012 to 0.8 1 0.2 2 September 2017 Steve Webb: As well as considering responses to the October 2016 to 2.4 2 0.6 5 consultation on charging, the Department is considering September 2018 responses to the call for evidence on quality standards October 2018 4 3 1 8 in defined contribution (DC) pension schemes and 1 Between £5,668 and £41,450 for 2013-14. recommendations set out in the Office of Fair Trading’s 2 Basic rate of income tax. market study into workplace DC pensions. Making changes during the implementation process As recognised by the Office of Fair Trading, good would be difficult to manage and risk upsetting the governance is a key feature of scheme quality. We will rollout programme. Our first priority is to encourage publish proposals covering both governance and charges people to participate and that is what the automatic in due course. enrolment is designed to achieve. 211W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 212W

Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for those who may be entitled. There is also a visiting Work and Pensions pursuant to the Written Statement service available to support vulnerable customers who of 23 January 2014, what advance notice he will give are unable to access services through other channels. pension providers of changes to auto enrolment Pensioners can, where eligible, claim housing benefit provisions; and if he will make a statement. [185684] alongside pension credit in a single phone call, without the need for a signed claim form. Calls to the 0800 Steve Webb: The consultation on charging closed on claims number from a BT landline or from the six 28 November last year, and received 166 written responses. largest mobile phone networks are free. This is an important and complex consultation that Personal Independence Payment requires our proper consideration to ensure we get it right. We will publish proposals in due course. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what assessment he has made of Olympic Airways the average waiting time for claimants of the personal Kwasi Kwarteng: To ask the Secretary of State for independence payment who require a home consultation Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to ensure in each (a) country, (b) region and (c) parliamentary that members of the Olympic Airlines pension scheme constituency of the UK; [185381] are able to access the Pension Protection Fund. (2) how many claimants of personal independence [185959] payment who require a home consultation have waited longer than (a) one month, (b) two months, (c) three Steve Webb: The Government is actively exploring months, (d) four months, (e) five months and (f) six whether it can make amendments to the Pension Protection months or more for such a consultation to date. Fund legislation on employer insolvency to enable members [185382] of the UK Olympic Airlines pension scheme to benefit from the Pension Protection Fund. Mike Penning: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Pension Credit Austin), on 21 January 2014, Official Report, column 164W. Gregg McClymont: To ask the Secretary of State for Procurement Work and Pensions (1) what recent assessment he has made of the take up of pensions credit among those Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for who are eligible; [185424] Work and Pensions which of his Department’s (2) what steps he plans to take to increase the take up contracts are covered by the EU’s de minimis funding of pensions credit among those who are eligible. rules. [186104] [185425] Mike Penning: All DWP contracts are competed for Steve Webb: The Government are committed to ensuring within the market place or awarded directly by applying pensioners receive the benefits they are entitled to. The one of the exceptions included in the Public Contract Income Related Benefits: Estimates of Take-up report Regulations 2006. None of the Department’s contracts provides caseload and expenditure estimates of take-up are therefore covered by the European Union’s de minimis for pension credit in Great Britain for the financial year funding rules. 2009-10. The figures are available online and can be Re-employment found here: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page=irb Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for DWP’s National Partnerships Team works with over Work and Pensions how many staff who have been 4,400 customer representative organisations, both nationally made redundant or retired from his Department have and locally, to provide a wide range of advice and subsequently been re-employed by his Department support for pensioners. since May 2010. [185571] DWP has also introduced a web-based pension credit Mike Penning: The latest information shows that toolkit at: since May 2010, nine staff who left the Department https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pension-credit- were subsequently re-employed by the Department. toolkit Social Security Benefits Its purpose is to provide customer representative organisations with all the information needed in order Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to talk to pensioners about pension credit. In partnership and Pensions how much his Department has spent on with Age UK, local authorities and other groups, a advertising (a) tackling benefit fraud and (b) unclaimed structured campaign was undertaken to create awareness benefits on Facebook in the current financial year. of the Toolkit among those who support our customers. [185441] In addition DWP makes information available in Mike Penning: There has been no spend to date this various locations for example, our website at: financial year on Facebook advertising regarding tackling https://www.gov.uk/browse/benefits benefit fraud or advertising unclaimed benefits. and leaflets are available from our DWP Information Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations Line on 0845 7313233 to ensure that people are aware of the benefits to which they may be entitled and how to Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work claim them. and Pensions how many (a) appeals against ATOS When a customer makes a claim to state pension or assessments and (b) successful appeals in (i) Leeds and reports a change in their circumstances, a customer (ii) Leeds Central constituency there have been in each adviser also discusses a pension credit application with of the last three years. [186018] 213W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 214W

Mike Penning: The information as requested is Universal Credit not readily available and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Work It is important to note that Atos do not make decisions and Pensions how many claimants in the universal on eligibility for employment and support allowance. credit pilot areas have (a) been mandated out of the Decisions are taken by DWP decision makers, taking universal credit scheme or (b) found employment since account of all the available evidence including the report the introduction of universal credit. [186113] provided by Atos. Esther McVey: In line with the published departmental strategy on the release of official statistics, we issued the Social Security Benefits: Warrington statistics for the pathfinder areas, for the period April 2013 to 31 October 2013, on 22 January 2014. As IT systems are further developed and data from Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work them become available, a wider range of breakdowns and Pensions how many benefit claimants in for universal credit claimants will be developed and Warrington have been sanctioned in the last (a) six published. These will be developed in line with the Code and (b) 12 months. [186122] of Practice for Official Statistics and details included in the Universal Credit Statistical Release Strategy Esther McVey: The available information on how https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/universal-credit- many benefit sanctions were applied to claimants in statistics Warrington local authority in the last (a) six and (b)12 Work Programme months is shown as follows. Jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) individuals sanctioned by period, Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Warrington local authority: 22 October 2012-30 June 2013 Work and Pensions if he will place in the Library a Period Total breakdown by principal impairment of the number of people in receipt of employment and support allowance 1 January 2013-30 June 2013 870 who have so far been referred to the Work Programme; 22 October 2012-30 June 2013 1,160 and how many in each category have so far secured a job outcome. [186103] Employment and support allowance (ESA) individuals sanctioned by Esther McVey: Information on Work programme period, Warrington local authority: 1 July 2012-30 June 2013 (referrals and Job Outcomes) by primary health condition Period Total can be found at: 1 January 2013-30 June 2013 30 http://tabulation-tool.dwp.gov.uk/WorkProg/tabtool.html 1 July 2012-30 June 2013 50 Guidance for users is available at: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dwp-tabulation- tool-guidance Income support lone parents (ISLP) individuals sanctioned by period, Warrington local authority: 1 July 2012-30 June 2013 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Period Total Work and Pensions how many recipients of (a) incapacity benefit, (b) employment and support allowance 1 January 2013-30 June 2013 60 placed in the support group and (c) income support 1 July 2012-30 June 2013 130 have volunteered for the Work Programme in each Notes: month since June 2011. [186108] 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Totals may not sum due to rounding. ″-″ denotes nil or negligible. Esther McVey: Statistics on the number of Work 2. The number of benefit sanctions applied is the number of sanction programme referrals, by payment type, in each month or disallowance referrals where the decision was found against the since June 2011 can be found at: claimant. 3. Figures show the year in which the decision to apply a sanction was https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/dwp-statistics- made. JSA figures for 2012 do not include sanctions applied between tabulation-tool 1 July and 21 October, inclusive, which are not currently available by Guidance for users is available at: local authority. Data up to 30 June 2013 is the latest data available. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dwp-tabulation- 4. New regulations introduced a new revised sanctions regime for JSA tool-guidance from 22 October and ESA claimants from 3 December 2012. 5. Income support lone parents receive a fixed sanction of 20% of the personal allowance rate of a single claimant (not aged less than 25) for each failure to attend/participate in a work focused interview until CABINET OFFICE 10p is left in payment. This sanction lasts until the individual attends and participates in a work focused interview. In the case where there is Civil Servants: Pay more than one sanction in place the claimant need only attend/participate in one work focused interview in order for all related sanctions to be Mr McCann: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet removed from their benefit. Office what effect changes in pensions contributions Sources: have had on the take-home pay of civil servants JSA and ESA: DWP Information, Governance and Security Directorate: Sanctions and Disallowance Decisions Statistics Database. compared with May 2010. [185222] ISLP: DWP Income Support Computer System. Mr Hurd: Lord Hutton outlined in his report the The information requested for JSA sanctions applied strong case for changing public sector pensions, saying between 1 June 2012 and 21 October 2012 is not readily in his report available by local authority and could be provided only “these costs have generally fallen to the taxpayer.” at disproportionate cost. The Commission reached the conclusion that, 215W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 216W

“If the Government wishes to make savings in the short-term it Mr Maude: Under the principles of LEAN Sourcing, will be more effective to increase member contributions rather all central Government procurements are required to than alter the benefit structure”. use OJEU compliant e-sourcing tools to help manage Contributions were increased in April 2012, April the full process. 2013 and will be increased again in April 2014. The increases were tiered by salary, so that higher earners Re-employment pay a larger percentage point increase than lower earners. A number of protections were introduced alongside the Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Minister for the contribution increases, including: Cabinet Office how many staff who have been made Those earning less than £15,000 (full-time equivalent rate) will redundant or retired from his Department have pay nothing extra; subsequently been re-employed by his Department Those earning up to £21,000 (full-time equivalent) will pay no since May 2010. [185558] more than 0.6% of pay extra in 2012-13 (and no more than 1.5% of pay extra in total by 2014-15). Mr Maude: This Government reformed the Information about the pay of AAs, AOs and EOs can Compensation Scheme in 2010 to reduce costs and to be found in the annual civil service earnings survey. The require the recovery of compensation payments where distribution of salaries for employees of these grades is staff are dismissed and re-employed. In 2012-13 the available at: Exchequer saved £2.2 billion from reducing the size of the civil service. Under the reformed scheme if staff are http://www.nomisweb.co.uk/query/129.1/advanced.aspx made redundant and subsequently reemployed they This Cabinet Office answer—to UIN 185222—provides may have to repay part of their compensation. Since information about how the take-home pay of those May 2010, five or fewer staff, who were made redundant with different levels of salaries is affected by the pension or retired from the Cabinet Office, were subsequently contribution increases. re-employed by the Department. In line with the practice of previous Administrations Ministerial Policy Advisers exact numbers are not usually disclosed to protect individual privacy when numbers are five or fewer. Mark Hendrick: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many special advisers are currently employed by the Government; and at what cost to the ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE public purse such advisers are employed. [185833] Carbon Sequestration Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the published list of special advisers and cost which was published on Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 25 October 2013 at: Energy and Climate Change how many members of https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/special-adviser- staff have been employed by his Department to work data-releases-numbers-and-costs-october-2013 full-time on carbon capture and storage in each month since June 2010. [185997] Procurement Michael Fallon: The number of staff employed by the Department of Energy and Climate Change to work Chris Evans: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet full-time on carbon capture and storage from June 2010 Office what proportion of his Department’s overall to January 2014 are set out in the table on an annual procurement spend for each of the last three financial basis: years was spent (a) in joint procurement exercises with other Departments and (b) shared between different Number organisations within the same Department group. [185395] By end March 2011 31 By end March 2012 31 Mr Maude: Information regarding procurement By end March 2013 36 expenditure is published in Departments’ and their By January 2014 36 arm’s length bodies annual report and accounts and are available at: Within the time available to respond to this named day PQ it has not been possible to produce a monthly https://www.gov.uk/government/publications breakdown, however I will forward this to the hon. As part of my Department’s transparency programme, Member once available. details of all new contracts over the value of £10,000 These figures are for civil servants only and do not (excluding VAT) and payments of over £25,000 (excluding include contractors and interim staff. VAT) are published on Contracts Finder https://www.gov.uk/contracts-finder Eggborough Power Station

Chris Evans: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Office for each of the last three financial years how Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has much and what proportion of his Department’s made of the potential effects on the (a) local and (b) procurement was conducted using e-procurement national economy of Eggborough power plant not tools; and what the value of such contracts was. [185401] converting to a biomass energy plant. [185543] 217W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 218W

Michael Fallon: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Ofgem has considered the most appropriate I gave on 28 January 2014, Official Report, column implementation date for reforms to the transmission 517W, to the hon. Members for Bassetlaw (John Mann) charging regime in the light of responses to its August and Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott). 2013 consultation on its ″preferred approach″ and impact assessment. Details, including the effect of a later Electricity Generation implementation date, can be found here: https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/project- Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy transmit-update-progress-and-next-steps and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the Energy: Competition number of MWHr of electricity that will be generated by the Short Term Operating Reserve in each of the next five years. [186067] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment his Michael Fallon: The Short Term Operating Reserve Department has made of the effect of ring fencing (STOR) is an electricity reserve product procured by between energy supply and generation businesses. National Grid that acts as an insurance policy from [185995] sources of generation or demand reduction to manage wider system issues. Neither Government nor National Michael Fallon: Ofgem, the Office for Fair Trading Grid can predict how much STOR will be utilised in and the Competition and Markets Authority are currently any given year as the need to despatch the product is an undertaking the first annual competition assessment for indication of complex background market challenges the gas and electricity markets. Their report will be with demand and generation. published in March 2014 and as part of the assessment the authorities will be looking at the impact of vertical Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy integration on competition. The regulators will set out and Climate Change how many MWHr of electricity the next steps, which may include recommendations to was generated by the Short Term Operating Reserve in Government. each of the last five years. [186068] Energy: Prices Michael Fallon: The following data from National Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Grid shows how many GWHr of electricity was utilised Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made by the Short Term Operating Reserve (STOR) over the of the total value of payments made by customers to last five full STOR years (April-March): British Gas through domestic energy bills as a result of the introduction of the Energy Company Obligation at GWHr of electricity utilised 31 December 2013. [186105] 2008-09 187.3 2009-10 104.7 Gregory Barker: The Government impact assessment 2010-11 100.1 for the current phase of ECO, published in June 2012, 2011-12 173.3 estimated the costs of the obligation at around £1.3 2012-13 167.2 million per annum on average, equating to around £50 per household per year on average. Companies will Energy Supply: Fees and Charges differ in how efficiently they discharge the obligation, and Government has published information on an anonymised basis, showing that some companies have Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy had higher costs than others in respect of different and Climate Change when he expects the final decision elements of the scheme. However the companies concerned to be made on approval and implementation of have not agreed to the publication of this information Ofgem’s reforms to Project TransmiT. [185909] on a named basis; nor does the Government have access to detailed information on the extent to which pass-through Michael Fallon: The timeline for approval and costs charged to consumers reflect the actual costs of implementation of changes to the transmission charging delivery. I am therefore unable to answer the question regime as a result of Project TransmiT is a matter for specifically in relation to British Gas. Ofgem. In its update of 16 December 2013, Ofgem said that it is working towards making a decision in March Energy: Weather 2014 with implementation of changes if approved in April 2015. Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what steps he is taking ahead of Mr Weir: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy the anticipated cold weather. [185165] and Climate Change what assessment he has made of the effect of the year’s delay in the implementation of Michael Fallon: Preparing for cold weather forms Ofgem’s reforms to the transmission charging regime, part of the normal cycle of activities which the energy Project TransmiT, announced by Ofgem on 16 supply industry undertakes each year. Each gas and December 2013. [186020] electricity supplier undertakes a number of actions in anticipation of cold weather as part of annual preparations Michael Fallon: The timeline for approval and for winter. These include, for example: implementation of changes to the transmission charging Ensuring asset health and availability; checks that key maintenance regime as a result of Project TransmiT is a matter for and construction has been completed are undertaken and that Ofgem. outstanding key defects are monitored and resolved. 219W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 220W

Strategic Spares: Stocks are reviewed and mobile plant such as communities through a UK-wide network of community generators and compressors are maintained. Diesel stocks are foundations. UKCF and the appropriate local community reviewed. foundation will manage a consultation process to engage Contingency Plans and Resourcing: Plans are reviewed and the local community in defining local priorities and updated as are resource deployment/work pattern options. needs, including the appointment of a community panel Staff Mobility: Availability of four wheeled drive resources, to decide how the money will be spent once the consultation snow chains etc. are confirmed and located strategically across is complete. the networks to ensure adequate geographic cover. The industry is also committed to provide 1% of Electricity margins are tighter for this winter than revenue at production stage. The industry will be consulting previous years but that reflects a move from unusually shortly about how these funds are distributed. large margins back to levels typical of the last decade. The Government has a range of current and planned Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy policies to ensure that margins do not become unacceptably and Climate Change what discussions he has had with tight in future years. the Office of Unconventional Gas and Oil on the creation National Grid’s 2013 winter outlook likewise concluded of a common liabilities fund to cover (a) accidents and that the UK gas market should continue to provide (b) remediation of abandoned wells drilled to pump secure supplies. The UK market is strengthened by methane gas using the hydraulic fracturing process. import infrastructure which has increased five fold over [185761] the past decade and which allows us to access diverse supply sources (north sea producers, pipelines from Michael Fallon: The operator is liable for any damage Norway and the rest of Europe, and shipments of or pollution caused by his operations. As a part of the liquefied natural gas). consenting process under the licences, DECC checks DECC has coordinated with industry and consumer that operators have appropriate insurance against these organisations campaigns to encourage consumers to liabilities. prepare for winter by buying oil early during the summer When operations finish, the operator is responsible months and to join oil buying clubs. Information has for sealing the well so as to ensure safe retention of all ″ been disseminated through the Met Office Get Ready fluids, in accordance with HSE regulations and industry ″ for Winter website, and made available to local resilience standards. The operator is also responsible for restoring forums. I wrote to MPs in October to encourage them the site to its previous state or a suitable condition for to support the Buy Oil Early campaign and the new re-use, in accordance with site restoration conditions FPS Code of Practice and Customer Charter in their specified by the relevant planning authority. The operator constituencies. must also comply with any relevant conditions of DECC has monitored the market for heating oil and Environment Agency permits, and remains liable for LPG with weekly reports from trade bodies FPS and any remediation which may prove necessary after the UK LPG. The industry has reported that overall heating abandonment of the well. oil and LPG suppliers have been operating normally, For the longer term, DECC and the industry are also however there have been some delays to supply households working to put in place a robust scheme that would in flooded areas. DECC and DCLG have set up a pilot cover liabilities even in the event that the relevant operator scheme for LRFs and industry to have joint contact is no longer in business. arrangements in the event disruptions in fuel supplies to provide advice to suppliers on whether a household or a Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for community is vulnerable to enable fuel suppliers to Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has prioritise deliveries in periods of peak demand. made of the studies (a) measurements of methane DECC has also worked with the Government Winter emissions at natural gas production sites in the US by Resilience Network on messages to local authorities to the university of Texas at Austin and (b) radium and encourage that road networks to essential services, such barium removal through blending hydraulic fracturing as hospitals, nursing homes, refineries, oil terminals and fluids for acid mine drainage by Duke university; and retail filling stations, are accessible for deliveries of fuel. what steps his Department is taking to prevent risks to public health from fracking. [185828] Fracking Michael Fallon: Public Health England (PHE) is currently Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for preparing the final version of its independent report Energy and Climate Change if he will establish a into the public health impacts of shale gas extraction: wealth fund for the community benefit funds generated “Review of the Potential Public Health Impacts of by the shale gas industry. [185574] Exposures to Chemical and Radioactive Pollutants as a Result of Shale Gas Extraction”. In doing so, all recently Michael Fallon: The Government has no plans to published studies of relevance will be taken into account. establish a wealth fund. However, the interim findings of that report, published The industry has bought forward a community benefit in October 2013, confirms that risks to public health offer which the Government has welcomed. from shale gas operations can be effectively managed At exploration stage, the industry will provide £100,000 provided operations are properly run and regulated. per hydraulically fractured well site. To ensure these The UK has a strong regulatory system which provides community benefit funds are managed and distributed a comprehensive and fit for purpose regime for exploratory independently of the operators themselves, the UK activities, but we want to continuously improve it. The Onshore Operators Group will be partnering with UK Office for Unconventional Gas and Oil (OUGO) will Community Foundations (UKCF), which works for work closely with the regulators and industry to ensure 221W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 222W that the regulation of shale gas development is robust Michael Fallon: No Minister from the Department of enough to safeguard public safety and protect the Energy and Climate Change has had meetings with the environment. Peel Group concerning discharges into the Manchester ship canal. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for United Utilities hold a permit, issued by the Environment Energy and Climate Change when he intends to publish Agency, that allows them to treat industrial effluents at the post-adoption statement following the closure of Davyhulme prior to discharge into the Manchester ship the consultation period on the strategic environmental canal under the environmental permitting regulations assessment on shale gas. [185996] 2010. The majority of the flowback fluid from Preese Hall was removed and treated at United Utilities’ industrial Michael Fallon: The consultation period closes on effluent treatment facility (ETF) at their Davyhulme 28 March 2014. All responses to the consultation will be water treatment works in Greater Manchester in 2011. carefully considered and a post-adoption statement published as soon as practicable thereafter. Davyhulme takes in and treats a variety of effluents and a large proportion of the domestic and industrial Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for sewage of Manchester on a daily basis. The final treated Energy and Climate Change what the evidential basis is effluent from the site is required to meet high environmental for the assumption in the strategic environmental assessment standards to ensure protection of the receiving water, in on shale gas that production over the lifetime of a well this case the Manchester ship canal. is three billion cubic feet of gas per well. [185999] Fracking: USA Michael Fallon: The assumption used for the strategic environmental assessment is based on the central estimate Sammy Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for of well productivity adopted by the report on ‘Potential Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has greenhouse gas emissions associated with shale gas had with his counterpart in the United States Department extraction and use’ (Mackay and Stone), published by of Energy on the effect of hydraulic fracturing on gas DECC in September 2013. The basis of that estimate is prices in the United States. [185436] discussed in para. 35 of the report, and drew on data from US basins reported by the United States Geological Michael Fallon: DECC Ministers have met ministerial Survey, together with UK industry views on the likely counterparts from the United States Department of costs of exploration and production in the UK, compared Energy on a number of occasions and had wide-ranging to the US. discussions including hydraulic fracturing.

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Office for Unconventional Gas and Oil Energy and Climate Change what assessment his Department has made of the benefit to local communities Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State of receiving one per cent of revenue from each shale gas for Energy and Climate Change what resources his site. [186002] Department has allocated to the Office for Unconventional Oil and Gas; and what the basis was Michael Fallon: We are promoting exploration to for calculating the resources needed by that office. determine the potential of shale gas and, at this early [185635] stage, no scenario can be definitive. The Department for Energy and Climate Change’s Strategic Environmental Michael Fallon: The Department allocated the Office Assessment (SEA), which is for consultation, estimates for Unconventional Oil and Gas £100,000 for its programme that community benefits to the value of 1% of revenue budget and £438,000 for its administration budget. from production could amount to a total of £2.4 million These resources were allocated through the Department’s to £4.8 million per site under the high activity scenario, business planning processes. assuming each well is productive for 20 years. The industry have based their estimate that potential community Procurement benefit per site would be the region of £5 million to £10 million on the Institute of Directors (IoD) report’s mid case scenario. Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what his Department’s 10 largest The two reports also have different assumptions about contracts let since financial year 2010-11 are; what the size of a pad. The IoD report on a broad economic savings have been made in such contracts; what the analysis of relevant factors assumes a pad with up to level of overspend or underspend was in each such 40 laterals (horizontal sections)—10 wells with up to contract; and what steps his Department has taken to four laterals per well. The SEA scenarios, by contrast, monitor the performance of each such contract have the specific purpose of exploring potential following the contract award. [185218] environmental effects and assume up to 24 laterals—24 wells with one lateral per well. Gregory Barker: The information requested is not Fracking: Greater Manchester held centrally and can be provided only at disproportionate cost. The directorates of the Department of Energy and Mark Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Climate Change carry out their own purchasing with Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has professional support from a procurement team. had with the Peel Group about the possibility of Contracts of the Department are published on the pollution from waste water used for fracking being Cabinet Office Website which can be found at: dumped in the Manchester ship canal. [185754] www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk 223W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 224W

The Department would be able to provide further identify whether, under Article 222 of the Air Navigation information by narrowing the scope, if specific procurement Order 2009, a laser pen was used for the purpose of projects were identified. disrupting an aircraft when in flight. This information A contract management review project is currently is not reported to Justice Statistics Analytical Services underway in the Department to improve capability and in MOJ due to its size and complexity. As such, it could contract management arrangements. be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Court proceedings data for 2013 are planned for Radioactive Materials: Transport publication in May 2014. Defendants proceeded against at magistrates court and found guilty at Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for all courts for offences relating to endangering the safety of aircraft1, Energy and Climate Change which information his England and Wales, 2010-122,3 Department and the Office for Nuclear Regulation Offence Outcome 2010 2011 2012 records on the transport of fissile and other radioactive material. [185031] Endangering Proceeded 22 50 27 safety of against Michael Fallon: I refer the hon. Member to the answers aircraft Found 19 37 26 I gave her on 3 February 2014, Official Report, columns guilty 131-32W. 1 An offence under AA.137 and 241(8) and Sch.13 Pt.D Air Renewable Energy: Heating Navigation Order 2009. 2 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence of the increase in daily demand for electricity during selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is winter months of shifting (a) 10, (b) 20, (c) 30, (d) 40 the most severe. and (e) 50 per cent of the non-daily metered component 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are of total UK gas demand to resistive heating. [185059] accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care Michael Fallon: The Secretary of State for Energy should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for Kingston inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are and Surbiton (Mr Davey), as not made any estimate of used. the increase in daily demand for electricity during winter Source: months of shifting a percentage of the non-daily metered Justice Statistics Analytical Services-Ministry of Justice. component of total UK gas demand to resistive heating. Prisoners: Suicide

JUSTICE Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Aviation: Lasers Justice how many prisoners committed suicide in each of the last five years for which figures are available; and Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for how many of those suicides occurred in safe cells. Justice (1) how many convictions there were for [184392] endangering the safety of an aircraft under Article 137 of the Air Navigation Order 2009 in each of the last Jeremy Wright: All deaths in prison custody are 10 years; [184724] subject to a coroner’s inquest and it is for the coroner to (2) how many convictions there were for targeting an determine the cause of death. aircraft in flight with a laser or light under Article 222 Statistics for self-inflicted deaths are published in the of the Air Navigation Order 2009 in each of the last Safety in Custody statistics bulletin, which can be found 10 years. [184723] at: Jeremy Wright: The number of defendants proceeded https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/safety-in-custody- against at magistrates court and found guilty at all statistics courts for offences relating to endangering the safety of Statistics on the number of deaths in prison custody for aircraft under Article 137 of the Air Navigation Order 2013 are scheduled for release on 24 April 2014. Self-inflicted 2009, from 2010 to 2012, can be viewed in the table. deaths have been at a similar level for the last five years. Please note that although 10 years of data have been A safer cell is designed and constructed to be safer requested, legislation under the Air Navigation Order than a conventional cell by having fewer obvious ligature 2009 only came into force in 2010. Therefore data has points. However, no cell can be considered to be entirely only been provided from 2010 to 2012 (latest available). safe and free from ligature points. Safer cells can, however, The MOJ Court Proceedings Database holds information be used as one of a number of measures to support a on defendants proceeded against, found guilty and prisoner who has been identified as being at-risk of sentenced for criminal offences in England and Wales. suicide and/or self-harm. Table 1 following shows the This database holds information on offences provided number of self-inflicted deaths that are recorded as by the statutes under which proceedings are brought occurring in a safer cell for the last five years, up to but not all the specific circumstances of each case. This 30 June 2013, the latest period for which statistics are centrally held information does not allow us to separately published. 225W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 226W

Table 1: Deaths in safer cells 2009 to 30 June 2013 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Number of self-inflicted what effect the delay in Probation Trust termination deaths in safer cells orders to 1 June 2014 will have on the tax liabilities of 2009 0 Trusts and Community Rehabilitation companies. 2010 1 [185154] 2011 0 2012 2 Jeremy Wright: We remain on track to deliver much 20131 2 needed reforms which address the glaring gap in our 1Figures for 2013 are up to 30 June 2013 only. system that currently sees around 50,000 short- term prisoners released on to the streets each year with no Prisons: Cleaning Services support. The effect of terminating existing contracts with trusts on 31 May 2014 does not alter the existing Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice tax liability. how many establishments within the prison estate currently have contracts to undertake dry cleaning; and Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice which firms are so contracted. [183446] what targets community rehabilitation companies will be set under the Transforming Rehabilitation programme. Jeremy Wright: We are aware of two dry cleaning [185203] workshops using prisoner labour operated in prisons—at HMP Risley, in the hon. Member’s constituency, and Jeremy Wright: We are on track with these essential HMP Blantyre House, in Kent. We hold contracts with reforms which will deliver a reduction in reoffending Timpson’s for both. Timpson’s wanted to deliver this rates by extending statutory rehabilitation to those offenders expansion to offer prisoners work experience; and to who serve short sentences, and who currently receive no offer employment through the gate for those who perform statutory support despite having the highest reoffending well in the prison operation. They run the workshop rates. As we announced on 19 December, 30 bidders with their own employees providing prisoner supervision/ have been short-listed to progress to the next stage of training in the prison workshops. the competition to deliver rehabilitation services. All of these bidders have experience in working with offenders Prisons: Homicide or in the wider criminal justice system and will be paid according to their success in delivering a reduction in Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for reoffending. Justice (1) if he will commission a report into the We have gained valuable experience from existing causes of, and possible measures to prevent, murders in pilots in establishing performance targets that will allow prisons; [184533] us to measure with confidence the impact on reoffending (2) what steps he is taking to address the increase in rates. This will enable us to draft robust contracts that murders in prison in England. [184534] will drive the right behaviours from providers and generate value for money. We are committed to being transparent Jeremy Wright: We are committed to reducing the about this process and will publish draft contracts for number of deaths in prisons and strenuous efforts are scrutiny. made to learn from each one. All apparent homicides in The reformed system will be regulated and held to prison are subject to a police investigation, an independent account through a combination of independent inspection, investigation by the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman audit and commercial account management by the National and a Coroner’s inquest. The National Offender Offender Management Service. There will be clear targets Management Service (NOMS) will carefully consider that need to be achieved to generate full payment for the the findings and recommendations from the investigations contractors both for the Fee for Service and Payment by and disseminate the learning from them. Results elements of the contracts. NOMS takes the responsibility of keeping staff, prisoners and visitors safe extremely seriously and are currently rigorously reviewing the management of violence in Re-employment prisons with a view to introducing further improvements to ensure prisons are safer places for everyone. Lilian Greenwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many staff who have been made redundant Probation or retired from his Department have subsequently been re-employed by his Department since May 2010. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for [185569] Justice what the annual cost is to the Probation Service in England and Wales of supervising a person on Mr Vara: The following tables outline the numbers of licence for (a) 12, (b) 24 and (c) 36 months. [183946] staff re-employed after either redundancy or retirement by the Ministry of Justice (MOJ), including MOJ HQ, Jeremy Wright: Probation unit costs are published on Her Majesty’s Courts & Tribunals Service (HMCTS), an annual basis by the Ministry of Justice at the following the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) the Legal Aid page of the gov.uk website: Agency (LAA) and the National Offender Management https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/prison-and- Service (NOMS) following either retirement or redundancy probation-trusts-performance-statistics-201213 between May 2010 and December 2013. 227W Written Answers4 FEBRUARY 2014 Written Answers 228W

Redundancies re-employed May 2010 to December 2013 Jeremy Wright: 871 defendants were proceeded against Redundant Re-employed Re-employed at magistrates courts for offences connected with pedal from: MOJ NOMS Total cycles in England and Wales in 2012 (the latest figures MOJ 0 0 0 available). Court proceedings data for 2013 are planned NOMS 0 0 0 for publication in May 2014. Total 0 0 0 Young Offenders: Reoffenders Retirements re-employed May 2010 to December 2013 Re-employed Re-employed Mr Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Retired from: MOJ NOMS Total what steps he is taking to reduce reoffending among young offenders. [902394] MOJ 5 0 5 NOMS 2 7 9 Jeremy Wright: Reoffending rates among under-18s Total 7 7 14 remain too high, and particularly among those leaving custody. Our Transforming Youth Custody programme Road Traffic Offences: Cycling will improve the education, and successful resettlement prospects, of those in custody. Youth offending teams Sir Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for deliver a variety of interventions to reduce reoffending, Justice how many pedal cyclists have been prosecuted and we recently announced a new system of support for road traffic offences in the last 12 months for which and escalation for those YOTs where improvements are figures are available. [184394] required.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 4 February 2014

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 117 JUSTICE—continued Bailiff Reform ...... 132 Topical Questions ...... 132 HMP Oakwood ...... 126 Victims Code...... 130 Legal Aid ...... 117 Victims of Crime...... 128 Mediation ...... 119 Whole-life Tariffs ...... 124 Property Boundary Disputes...... 129 Young Offenders ...... 121 Shared Services (Tendering) ...... 131 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 4 February 2014

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 15WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 18WS Local Accountability and Council Tax...... 15WS EU Readmission Agreement (Azerbaijan) ...... 18WS Severe Weather Recovery Scheme ...... 16WS DEFENCE...... 17WS Advisory Group on Military Medicine TREASURY ...... 15WS (Triennial Review)...... 17WS Public Service Pensions Uprating 2014...... 15WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 4 February 2014

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 1P JUSTICE...... 3P Employment Practices at Lombard Vehicle Evidence Accepted in Family Courts ...... 3P Management...... 1P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 4 February 2014

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 145W CABINET OFFICE—continued Legal Aid Scheme ...... 145W Procurement...... 215W Prosecutions...... 145W Re-employment...... 216W Royal Bank of Scotland ...... 146W RSPCA ...... 146W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 173W Serious Fraud Office ...... 146W Care Homes ...... 173W Sexual Offences: Prosecutions ...... 147W Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 174W Witnesses ...... 148W EU Grants and Loans...... 174W Fire Services...... 174W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 200W Homelessness: Sexuality...... 175W Adult Education ...... 200W Local Government Finance ...... 175W Apprentices...... 200W Non-domestic Rates...... 175W Apprentices: Shipping...... 200W Private Rented Housing: Construction...... 176W Business: Loans...... 201W Role of Local Authorities in Housing Supply Insolvency: Licensing...... 201W Independent Review...... 177W Olympic Games: Russia ...... 202W Travellers: Equality ...... 177W Postal Services...... 203W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 162W Sector Skills Councils...... 203W Arts: North West...... 162W Sector Skills Councils: Shipping...... 204W Gaming Machines...... 163W Space Technology ...... 204W Olympic Games: Russia ...... 163W Student Opportunity Fund ...... 205W Pensions...... 164W Technology: Training ...... 205W Press: Regulation ...... 164W UK Trade and Investment: West Midlands ...... 205W Re-employment...... 164W Sports: Children...... 164W CABINET OFFICE...... 214W Civil Servants: Pay ...... 214W DEFENCE...... 166W Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 215W Afghanistan ...... 166W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Armed Forces: Domestic Violence ...... 167W continued Asia...... 167W Business: Human Rights ...... 191W Colombia ...... 168W China ...... 192W Curzon Institute...... 168W Conferences ...... 192W Defence: Procurement...... 169W Electronic Surveillance...... 192W Djibouti ...... 169W European External Action Service ...... 193W Firearms ...... 169W Iran...... 193W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 170W Pakistan ...... 194W Land ...... 170W Pay...... 194W Marines...... 170W Press Freedom...... 195W Military Aircraft ...... 171W Procurement...... 195W NATO...... 171W Re-employment...... 196W Procurement...... 171W Russia ...... 196W Publications ...... 172W South Sudan ...... 197W Russia ...... 172W Staff ...... 198W Space Technology ...... 172W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 173W HEALTH...... 153W Autism ...... 153W EDUCATION...... 178W Botulism: Babies ...... 154W Academies...... 178W Breast Cancer: Drugs...... 154W Academies: Fraud ...... 179W Cancer: Drugs...... 155W Children’s Centres: Greater London...... 179W Children: Protection...... 155W Defibrillators: Eastleigh ...... 180W Compulsorily Detained Mental Patients ...... 156W Edapt ...... 180W Health Services ...... 156W Education: Finance...... 180W Healthcare Strategy Forum...... 156W Education: Fraud...... 185W Hospitals: Air Pollution ...... 157W Free Schools...... 186W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 157W Further Education: Finance...... 186W Medical Records: Databases ...... 158W Grandparents...... 187W Midwives...... 158W Kings Science Academy ...... 187W Postnatal Depression...... 159W Pensions...... 187W Prescriptions: Fees and Charges...... 159W Primary Education...... 189W Re-employment...... 160W Private Education: Offences against Children ...... 189W Sexuality ...... 160W Pupils: Bullying...... 189W Smoking: Young People ...... 160W Pupils: Tagging ...... 190W Streptococcus...... 161W Science: Teachers ...... 190W Telemedicine ...... 161W Special Educational Needs...... 190W Warrington Hospital...... 162W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 216W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 141W Carbon Sequestration ...... 216W Animal Experiments ...... 141W Eggborough Power Station ...... 216W Drugs: Screening...... 143W Electricity Generation...... 217W Licensing Laws...... 144W Energy: Competition...... 218W Police Custody ...... 144W Energy: Prices ...... 218W Secondment ...... 144W Energy Supply: Fees and Charges ...... 217W Energy: Weather...... 218W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 198W Fracking...... 219W Parliamentary Tours ...... 198W Fracking: Greater Manchester ...... 221W Staff ...... 199W Fracking: USA...... 222W Office for Unconventional Gas and Oil...... 222W JUSTICE...... 223W Procurement...... 222W Aviation: Lasers ...... 223W Radioactive Materials: Transport...... 223W Prisoners: Suicide...... 224W Renewable Energy: Heating ...... 223W Prisons: Cleaning Services...... 225W Prisons: Homicide...... 225W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Probation ...... 225W AFFAIRS...... 148W Re-employment...... 226W Animals: Exports ...... 148W Road Traffic Offences: Cycling...... 227W Cattle ...... 149W Young Offenders: Reoffenders ...... 228W Climate Change ...... 149W Databases...... 150W PRIME MINISTER ...... 198W Eels ...... 150W Chiefs of Staff...... 198W Gangmasters Licensing Authority...... 151W Nature Conservation: Crime ...... 151W TRANSPORT ...... 138W Owls...... 151W Biofuels...... 138W River Thames...... 152W Driving: Licensing...... 139W Sea Fish Industry Authority...... 152W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 139W Veterinary Medicine: EU Nationals ...... 153W Railways: Finance ...... 140W Rescue Services: Belfast ...... 140W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 191W Severn River Crossing ...... 141W Afghanistan ...... 191W Vehicle and Operator Services Agency ...... 141W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 135W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 206W Air Passenger Duty ...... 135W Children: Maintenance ...... 206W Annuities...... 135W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 206W Economic Situation: Northern Ireland...... 135W Employment and Support Allowance: Income Tax: Warrington...... 136W Warrington ...... 207W Procurement...... 136W Financial Services ...... 207W Re-employment...... 137W Jobcentre Plus ...... 208W Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013...... 137W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 208W Severn River Crossing ...... 137W Occupational Pensions...... 208W Stamp Duties ...... 137W Olympic Airways...... 211W State Retirement Pensions...... 138W Pension Credit...... 211W Tax Evasion ...... 138W Personal Independence Payment...... 212W Procurement...... 212W Re-employment...... 212W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 165W Social Security Benefits...... 212W Average Earnings ...... 165W Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations..... 212W Complaints ...... 165W Social Security Benefits: Warrington...... 213W Staff ...... 165W Universal Credit...... 214W Training ...... 166W Work Programme...... 214W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 11 February 2014

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 4 February 2014

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 117] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

Sri Harmandir Sahib [Col. 139] Statement—(Mr Hague)

Flooding Prevention for New Developments [Col. 161] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mr Spencer)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill [Col. 163] Programme motion (No. 3)—(Damian Green)—agreed to Lords amendments considered

Backbench Business Energy Company Charges [Col. 207] Motion—(Albert Owen)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 243]

Deaths in Custody (Legal Aid) [Col. 244] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Gypsy and Traveller Policy [Col. 1WH] Free Schools and Academies [Col. 23WH] Regional Arts and Culture [Col. 30WH] Independent Retail [Col. 55WH] Pavements [Col. 63WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Statements [Col. 15WS]

Petitions [Col. 1P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 135W]