Thursday Volume 673 19 March 2020 No. 44

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 19 March 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1115 19 MARCH 2020 1116

road transport and aims to cut air pollution and save House of Commons lives. That strategy includes new and ambitious goals, legislation, investment and policies to clean up our air.

Thursday 19 March 2020 Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): Will the Minister join me in welcoming the more stringent air pollution reduction targets that the Scottish Government The House met at half-past Nine o’clock have agreed in legislation, and does she agree that the UK Government should match those targets in their Environment Bill? PRAYERS Rebecca Pow: I thank the hon. Lady for her question, but actually our clean air strategy has been described by [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] the World Health Organisation as “an example for the rest of the world to follow”. BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS With our £3.8 billion commitment, we are definitely leading the way. WINDRUSH LESSONS LEARNED REVIEW Resolved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That Tree Planting she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House a Return of the Report, entitled Windrush 2. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): When the Lessons Learned Review, dated 19 March 2020.—(James Morris.) Government plan to implement their commitment to plant 30,000 hectares of trees per year by 2025. [901640]

Oral Answers to Questions 8. Angela Richardson (Guildford) (Con): What plans he has to increase tree planting rates. [901649]

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow): Forestry is devolved, and we are working with the The Secretary of State was asked— devolved Administrations to increase tree planting across Air Pollution the UK to 30,000 hectares per year by 2025. To drive up planting rates in England, we announced a new £640 million 1. Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con): What steps his nature for climate fund, and we are developing an Department is taking to tackle the effect of air pollution. ambitious delivery programme. We will seek feedback [901638] and evidence on this through our new English tree strategy. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow): Kerry McCarthy: I thank the Minister for that response. Our clean air strategy sets out an ambitious programme The Committee on Climate Change has said that we of action to reduce air pollution from a wide range of need to plant 32,000 hectares a year for the next 30 years sources. We have also put in place a £3.8 billion plan to if we are to meet the net zero target, but my understanding tackle roadside nitrogen dioxide concentrations. Our is that the Government’s recent announcement was that Environment Bill makes a clear commitment to set a they would be planting 30,000 hectares in full by 2025, legally binding target to reduce fine particulate matter not per year. Can the Minister clarify that? The manifesto and enables local authorities to take more effective commitment was per year, but I think the Government action to tackle air pollution in these areas. have not now committed to that.

Sara Britcliffe: Hyndburn has the highest levels of air Rebecca Pow: Just for clarification, in our manifesto pollutants in Lancashire and double the county’s average it was 30,000 hectares per year. level of nitrogen dioxide. What work is being done with local councils such as mine to tackle that? Angela Richardson: I thank the Minister for her answer, Rebecca Pow: I thank my hon. Friend for her question; and I welcome the investment in our green infrastructure. I see that she is already standing up for her constituency. May I ask how the Government have funded woodland Air pollution has reduced significantly since 2010. Emissions creation? of nitrogen oxides have fallen by 33% and are at their lowest level since records began, but that is not to say Rebecca Pow: The Government have made major that there is not a great deal more to do. In Hyndburn, commitments. Chiefly,as I have mentioned, we announced nitrogen dioxide concentrations around roads are actually the £640 million nature for climate fund in our manifesto. within the statutory air quality limit, though local authorities Ministers are working with officials on policy proposals are empowered to address local air quality concerns to increase tree planting in England over this Parliament. within their community.Wehave put in place a £3.8 billion We have also kick-started funding for planting the new plan to improve air quality and deliver cleaner transport, Northern and Great Northumberland forests. In addition, and last year we published our world-leading clean air last year we opened the £50 million woodland carbon strategy, which focuses on broader emissions beyond guarantee, giving long-term income support to new 1117 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1118 woodland creation projects, while pump-priming the Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I declare an domestic carbon market, which is obviously something interest, as a member of Kettering Borough Council, that will grow. which is increasing its planting of British native trees from 250 to 500 a year and supports plans for 40 hectares Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the Minister of new trees across north Northamptonshire on an for her responses so far. In her statement in answer to annual basis. What more can be done to incentivise the original question, she referred to having been in local authorities to plant more trees? touch with the Northern Ireland Assembly and the regional Administrations. Northern Ireland lags behind Rebecca Pow: As ever, my hon. Friend is a fantastic when it comes to tree planting. What discussions has advocate for his constituency. Many local authorities the Minister had with the Northern Ireland Assembly are embarking on excellent planting schemes. There will to ensure that tree planting in Northern Ireland catches be some big opportunities through the Environment up with the tree planting that she mentioned in her Bill in the biodiversity net gain sector, where lots of statement and answers? people will be able to offset when building a development; they can plant some trees to add 10% more biodiversity. Rebecca Pow: Obviously, we are keen for tree planting There will be opportunities right around the country to expand everywhere, including Scotland. Scotland through the new nature recovery strategies which my already does a lot of tree planting, because the nature of hon. Friend’s local authority will be a part of providing, its landscape is somewhat different from ours. We have and that will determine where the trees should be planted. a raft of measures, and our officials will be speaking to officials in Northern Ireland. It is very important that Deforestation we keep all that contact and do this as a joint thing. Trees work on the atmosphere: they hold the carbon 3. Liz Twist (Blaydon) (Lab): What steps the Government dioxide, and that goes everywhere, so we need to be are taking to end deforestation in commodity supply doing this jointly. chains as agreed in the Amsterdam declaration on Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): deforestation. [901642] It is absolutely right that we vastly ramp up tree planting to help with carbon capture, but may I ask the Minister The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for not to overlook kelp? It absorbs more than six times the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow):I amount of carbon as trees. We have vast tracts of feel like a jack-in-a-box, Mr Speaker. seabed available, not least off Sussex. It helps with The UK supports a number of initiatives to eliminate marine conservation, and it is also a food source. Please deforestation from supply chains in line with the aims could we look at that more closely, and at how we can of the Amsterdam declaration. That includes establishing promote it, as we want to do, in Sussex? UK roundtables on palm oil and soya to help UK companies realise sustainable sourcing commitments Rebecca Pow: My hon. Friend raises an incredibly and supporting the tropical forest alliance, a public-private interesting point. It is something I am personally very initiative with over 160 members. We also convene the interested in. As we speak, there is a project under way global resource initiative, which will shortly recommend to plant kelp and to look at how its carbon capture is further actions that the UK can take to green our going. Mudflats are similarly really important, as are supply chains. salt marshes. There could be a big future for this on our new horizon of dealing with the land and the landscape. Liz Twist: In the year when are due to host COP26, All this carbon capture is a new feature in relation to the Environment Bill must be world leading and set an climate change, and I think kelp will definitely be part example for other countries to follow. How will DEFRA of it. take responsibility for the UK’s global footprint, and John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): The Minister has talked will the Minister confirm that there will be action to a lot about planting trees, but made no mention of remove deforestation from UK supply chains in future? where those trees will come from; in other words, will they be sourced within the UK or will we be importing Rebecca Pow: The hon. Lady raises an incredibly them, which will have an impact not only on employment important point and our vision is for everyone to but on the importation, as we have seen previously, of benefit from more sustainable production of vital pests and diseases? Will the Minister therefore give agricultural commodities. We have addressed this within long-term contracts to the horticultural industry so that the Environment Bill. Our global footprint is incredibly it can rapidly ramp up the production of seedlings, for important, and we are considering the recommendations the sake of the British economy and as a health and in the global resource initiative and will be very seriously safety measure ? thinking about how Government can take that forward. Weare leading by example in many other areas, particularly Rebecca Pow: I forgive the right hon. Gentleman for our Government’s partnerships for forests programme going on, because it is brilliant to mention horticulture. and the soya programme that I mentioned in my Horticulture is such an important part of this country, previous answer. and we are in discussions with nurseries, because he is absolutely right that they have to provide these trees. We Vulnerable People: Food Supplies would obviously like as many as possible to come from the UK, because that is very important, particularly 4. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): on biosecurity grounds. I see a great new future in that What steps he is taking with Cabinet colleagues to maintain for those nurseries, and we are in discussions with food supplies for vulnerable people in the (a) North the industry. East and (b) UK during the covid-19 outbreak. [901643] 1119 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1120

The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and specific proposals to help the most vulnerable—those Rural Affairs (George Eustice): The Government are in with clinical problems—to ensure that we can get food close contact with representatives of the food supply to them should they be self-isolating. chain and with local authorities, including those in the north-east, and also with charities, to ensure that those Luke Pollard: I thank the Secretary of State for that who need to stay at home will have continued access to answer. I think he will need to provide more detail for food. We have well established ways of working with the those who are in genuine hunger today; the hope of food industry during disruption and our retailers already detail in the future is not reassuring people at the have highly resilient supply chains and are working moment. If I may press him further on supermarkets, around the clock to ensure that people have the food we discussed the so-called grey hour, when elderly people and other products that they need. can shop before the rest of society goes into the supermarkets. Will he press the Department for Transport Chi Onwurah: All of us found the images of empty to relax the times for free bus pass use to ensure that supermarket shelves disturbing, but for those who are people can get to the supermarkets? Will he also ensure vulnerable, aged, unwell, isolated or dependent on food that every supermarket, not just the Co-op, is still banks, that is causing real fear as to where their next contributing food to food banks and organisations such meal is coming from. In the north-east, we have excellent as FareShare? I suspect that he and his colleagues will local producers, but much of our food is dependent on want to ensure a private sector-led solution wherever supply chains, and I am afraid the Secretary of State’s possible, but I press him on this issue, because we will response will not have given the reassurance required. not get through this crisis unless there is Government What specifically is he doing to ensure the supply of intervention to support those people and ensure that food to the supermarket shelves and from the supermarket food supply chains remain open. shelves to people’s homes? George Eustice: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that there is a role for the Government. We must George Eustice: It is very important to note that we take action to set aside any obstacles to making the have significant resilience in our food supply chain, in food supply chain operate in a way that ensures that that food manufacturers are used to coping with increases people have food. On food banks, as I said, we are in in demand, not least every year during Christmas. There discussion with supermarkets.Wehave also had discussions is not a shortage of food. The challenge we have had is with them about competition law, and we will take getting food to shelves in time when people have been whatever action is necessary to ensure that they can purchasing more. That is why we have taken steps jointly plan their approach to these matters. For the including setting aside delivery curfews so lorries can most vulnerable, we are working on proposals that my run around the clock, and relaxing driver hours to colleagues in MHCLG will announce shortly. ensure that deliveries can take place more frequently. We are in discussion with Ministry of Housing, Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Getting Communities and Local Government colleagues about home deliveries to potentially millions of self-isolating other support that we would deliver locally to get food households is a massive logistical exercise. Is it time for to those who are self-isolating. the Government to think about further intervention, including, I am afraid, the suspension of competition Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/ rules, so retailers and haulage companies can work Co-op): I thank the Secretary of State for meeting me together to meet this huge national challenge? and the rest of the shadow DEFRA team this week to discuss concerns about the national crisis and food George Eustice: My right hon. Friend makes a very availability. I urge him to go further on some of the important point. That is why earlier this week we had a measures he has set out. I hope my questions are seen as detailed workshop with both retailers and food processors being asked in a constructive spirit. to identify what they would like to do and what changes to competition law we would need to consider and People are worried about how they will feed their implement. We are working on that right now. family, especially if they are self-isolating, have had their income slashed to statutory sick pay or have lost Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Telford and their job. However, millions are already in food poverty, Wrekin Council will now have to deliver 5,000 free and this is an immediate family emergency for many of school meals a day without being able to do so through them. With food banks running low on food, and given schools, except for key workers’ children. What more that many food bank volunteers are over the age of 70 can the Government do, given that many volunteers and will soon need to self-isolate, what steps is the and people working in charities who might offer to Secretary of State taking to assist those in genuine backfill where support is required may be self-isolating hunger today? or may have been encouraged by the Government to self-isolate? There really is an issue with logistics. George Eustice: As I have said, we have taken a number of steps to ensure that we can get food to George Eustice: My right hon. Friend the Secretary supermarkets. I have been in daily calls with the food of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport is working supply sector. Those have included discussions about on a national volunteer project to co-ordinate the many food banks, and we are in dialogue with supermarkets offers of volunteer help that we have had. In the context to ensure that they get access to the supplies they need. I of food, we have been working very closely with welcome the constructive approach that the shadow supermarkets to expand their click-and-collect services Secretary of State is taking. We are also working on to make it easier, where possible, for them to expand 1121 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1122 their delivery capacity to homes. We continue to work George Eustice: My hon. Friend raises an important with other groups to identify how we can get food to point. I am aware that Natural England intends to people at this difficult time. circulate the stoat-trapping general licence to stakeholders this week, and it is working hard to grant those licences Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Care as soon as possible. People wishing to control wild birds homes and other residential settings that have been let in protected areas need to apply for an individual licence, down by their wholesale food suppliers are now being as must those wishing to control lesser black-backed or told by supermarkets that they will be treated just like herring gulls except for safety reasons, given their poorer any other consumer. Two chickens do not go a long way conservation status. We are also considering the best if they have 136 residents to feed. Will the Secretary of future approach as part of our review. State urgently look into this issue for all residential settings, please? Damian Hinds: Right now, DEFRA, quite rightly, is focused totally on the food-supply questions that we George Eustice: I am happy to look at the specific have been talking about, but will my right hon. Friend issue that my hon. Friend raised. However, it is also also confirm that he will look to move forward with a worth noting that while there has been an increase in trade and standards commission for food quality for demand at retail shops, notably in supermarkets, there UK consumers and for a fair field for our farmers? has been a sharp fall in demand in the service trade, as restaurants, pubs and so forth find that demand for their services has plummeted. Our understanding at the George Eustice: My right hon. Friend makes a very moment is that there are not issues in the food service important point. He will be aware that our manifesto supply chain, but I am happy to take up any particular and our published objectives for the US trade deal case that he might have. make it clear that we will protect our food standards and animal welfare in any future trade deals. I am aware Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): that there has been a proposal for a trade and standards Our supermarket workers have shown themselves to be commission, which we are considering, and we are in the heroes of retail, making sure that people get fed and discussion with other Departments,such as the Department get the food that they need, but there are real concerns for International Trade, about how best to ensure that about whether they can maintain that service if they are agricultural expertise is fully reflected as part of the not included in the list of key workers. Of course, many negotiating team. will have children who will need care if the schools cannot accommodate them. Can we have an assurance Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): If the motto in today that our retail workers will be on the list of key past crises was “Dig for Victory”, so far this one has workers? been much more “Distribute for Victory”. Of course, the retail sector is very important, but I am less sanguine George Eustice: The Prime Minister made reference than the Secretary of State about future food supply yesterday to the importance of those working in the and I think that we need to make sure that we support food retail sector,in particular.Later today,the Government all those in that chain. The poultry industry, for instance, will announce jobs defined as key workers, but I can is very time-dependent. Two or three days extra for assure him that we fully recognise that over 25% of staff chickens on farms can lead to a whole range of welfare generally working in the food supply chain have children and logistical issues. Can I take it that the Secretary of of school age, and that will be reflected when the list State is pressing his colleagues to ensure that all those in is published. the food supply chain are recognised on the Government list of key groups of workers, so we make sure that we Support for Farmers secure our future food security?

5. Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): What George Eustice: As I said in response to an earlier steps he is taking to support farmers. [901644] question, the Government recognise that a significant number of staff working throughout the supply chain, 10. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): What both retailers and food processors, have children of steps he is taking to support farmers. [901652] school age; we estimate that the figure is between 25% and 33%. We therefore recognise that many of them will The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and need to be defined as key workers, but further information Rural Affairs (George Eustice): We have committed to on that will be published by the Government later maintaining the budget for our future agriculture policy today. at the same level as now, but to direct it differently. We are designing our farming reforms with those who work in agriculture and considering resilience issues. During Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): The standards of the transition period, farmers will have time to adapt agriculture produce and animal welfare in Angus and and prepare for the new policy. elsewhere in these islands is among the best in the world. Is it not the case that the standards of imports Kevin Hollinrake: Farmers’ and landowners’ ability to are not always up to the standards of UK production? protect their crops and their livestock will be seriously Is it not important that we follow the simple premise compromised unless general licences are issued for protected that, if something cannot lawfully meet the UK standards areas, gulls and traps this spring. Will my right hon. of production, it should not lawfully be imported to the Friend set out what he can do to make sure that that is UK? Will the Secretary of State enshrine that in the the case? Government’s legislation? 1123 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1124

George Eustice: We had a clear commitment in our Mr Holden: Although my upland farmers in Weardale manifesto to protect food standards and animal welfare are already working on schemes such as peat restoration in any future trade deals we do. Our view is that the and afforestation, my lowland farmers are particularly right way to do that is through getting our mandate and concerned that they might miss out on some of these approach to the negotiations right, and not necessarily environmental schemes. What reassurance can my hon. by attempting to draft something in legislation. Friend give me that these schemes will be available to all? Flooded Areas: Support Rebecca Pow: I thank my hon. Friend for that pertinent question. New schemes will be for all farmers, in all 6. Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): What recent areas and for all types of landscape. At the moment, discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for farmers can enter our new countryside stewardship Housing, Communities and Local Government on agreements, which start from January 2021. Those who reforming the support package provided to flooded sign up to the improved scheme and who wish to enter areas. [901647] the new environmental land management scheme will be able to leave their countryside stewardship agreements The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and at agreed exit points, without penalty. Lots of farmers Rural Affairs (George Eustice): The Government activated were concerned about that issue, but it is now clear that the flood recovery framework in November 2019 and they can do that. Financial assistance under the February 2020 to provide support to communities such environmental land management scheme will be available as Calderdale, where 100 mm of rain fell in just 12 hours, for all farmers and land managers, including lowland causing extensive flooding. I extend my thanks to all farmers in the country who undertake the eligible activities. those involved in the responses to recent floods, including National Food Strategy those in Calderdale; I thank the local council, the Environment Agency, the military and emergency services 9. Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): When for all their hard work. the Government plan to publish the national food strategy. [901651] Craig Whittaker: As my right hon. Friend is aware, the funding package comes from several different The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Departments and, in the case of an isolated incident Rural Affairs (George Eustice): As my hon. Friend is like that of the Calder Valley after Storm Ciara, and aware, Henry Dimbleby is leading an independent review even after 1,200 properties were flooded, Government of the food system to develop recommendations to support for households was not triggered. Will he ensure shape a national food strategy. The review was launched that support by way of an off-the-shelf package is in June 2019. A vision for the food system is scheduled available for any affected area in future and that no area for publication in the spring of this year, and the has to wait nine days again for support? review’s final recommendations will be published over the winter. The Government will then respond to those George Eustice: My hon. Friend raises an important within six months. point. We are having discussions across government about having a consistent threshold above which the Neil Parish: In these moments of great crisis when we flood recovery framework might be activated. On Storm need food, there is no doubt that home-produced food Ciara, which affected his constituency very badly, in the is more important than ever. I would really love it if the event, we decided to treat Storms Ciara and Dennis as a food strategy incorporates how we are going to produce single episode, which meant that Calderdale did qualify more home-produced food. Further to the question for the same support that other areas had. from the hon. Member for Angus (Dave Doogan), I am looking forward to the Secretary of State supporting the amendment from the Environment, Food and Rural Support for Farmers Affairs Committee to maintain high standards on food imports. Can that all be incorporated into the food 7. Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): strategy? What steps the Government are taking to ensure that farmers benefit from the Government’s proposal to George Eustice: My hon. Friend makes an important move from land-based to environmental enhancement- point. Events such as those we are experiencing now based support. [901648] remind everyone that a critical component of our food security is healthy and vibrant domestic production, which is why we have committed in the Agriculture Bill The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for to review our food security every five years. That will Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow): include a review of the health of the food supply chain Our new environmental land management scheme will and food production in this country. reward farmers and other land managers for delivering environmental public goods. We are committed to Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What steps are the co-designing the scheme with stakeholders to produce Government taking to adapt the seasonal workers scheme the best possible outcomes for both the environment to support farmers in this important growing season? and our farmers and land managers. We are currently running a programme of tests and trials, which will be George Eustice: The hon. Gentleman raises an important followed by a three-year national pilot, commencing in point. If there is disruption to people visiting the UK as late 2021. The scheme will roll out from late 2024 a result of restrictions put in place, or general concern across England. in other countries, that may have an impact on the 1125 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1126 number of seasonal workers who come here from countries Department made of the impact on very small farms if such as Bulgaria. We are working with the industry and many of the people who work on them succumb to the National Farmers Union to assess the situation, and coronavirus? we will be working on proposals to address it before May and June, which is when it is likely to present itself George Eustice: My hon. Friend raises an important as an issue. point: it is not just those employers with large numbers of staff that could face challenges; it could be those Topical Questions with a very small number of staff, or those with no staff, who operate alone. We are working with the National T1. [901654] Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con): Farmers Union and others to work out ways to address If he will make a statement on his departmental this issue.It will require friendly and supportive neighbourly responsibilities. behaviour in some cases.

The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and T2. [901655] Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) Rural Affairs (George Eustice): The covid-19 pandemic (Lab): Given the established links between air pollution presents significant challenges for our country and, and poor lung health, and the knowledge that poor indeed, the rest of the world. It is currently my primary lung health is a risk factor for covid-19, what steps is focus. I have been holding regular calls with key players the Secretary of State taking to understand the in the food supply chain, to ensure that we take whatever additional support that may be needed to enable areas steps are necessary to enable our food producers,distributors across the UK with the worst air quality to mitigate and retailers to meet an increase in demand. I wish to risks and keep people safe during the pandemic? record my thanks to all those who work in the food industry—whether on a production line, driving a delivery George Eustice: The hon. Lady raises an important vehicle or in a supermarket—for all the hard work they point. The Government have given specific guidance to are putting in at this difficult time. those considered most at risk, including the over-70s. There will be additional support for those with clinical Ben Everitt: Our farmers are famously hardy folk, but issues that make them especially at risk. like everybody else they are not immune to the effects of coronavirus, and nor are farm businesses. What further T5. [901661] Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) support will be available to farmers? (Con): Delivery slots should be reserved for the vulnerable. Will the Secretary of State stop them being George Eustice: Earlier this week the Chancellor hogged by people who are quite capable of getting to unveiled a package of measures to support all businesses, the shops? and some farmers would qualify for that. I am having regular meetings with the National Farmers Union to George Eustice: My right hon. Friend makes an address any concerns that it might have. The NFU’s important point. During this situation, we need everybody principal concern, in common with many other industries to be considerate to others. A number of supermarkets in the food supply chain, is the potential pressures on have piloted the idea of a reserved hour at the start of staff. each day for the elderly and most vulnerable. That appears to be working and we will encourage others to Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): The shadow Secretary do that. There is a limited amount of delivery capacity— of State and I have spoken to fishers and their representative currently about 7% of the market—but we will increase organisations right across the UK in recent days, and that if we can. they are worried. In just the past week, the market value of fish landed by British fishers has fallen to 20% of T4. [901658] John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): As part of normal rates. There are significant concerns about the the key worker strategy, will the Secretary of State viability of the UK fishing industry, especially the small recognise the crucial importance of food and drink boats that are the backbone of the British fleet. Many manufacturing and distribution in the food chain? In fishers are telling us that they will go bust in the next discussions about the long-term sustainability of the two weeks. Does the Secretary of State agree that we industry, can he and his colleagues persuade the must take whatever steps are necessary to support fishers Treasury to abandon its dogma for public purchasing and the fishing industry to cope with the pressures of that cheapest is always best? the covid-19 crisis? George Eustice: When it comes to public procurement, George Eustice: I obviously agree that our fishing for a number of years, we have had an approach called industry is incredibly important. The best way we can the balanced scorecard, which means that it is not all help it is to get the markets moving again. I understand about price and that our procurement authorities should that there is a particular issue with disruption to markets also take into account quality and other factors, too. in the European Union, which is contributing to the situation. Officials had meetings yesterday with fishing Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): The spring representatives, and I am looking for some feedback selling season will soon be upon us. Across the country, from that to agree what we do next. against the background of the coronavirus crisis, farmers will be concerned to establish whether they will be able T3. [901656]Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): Many of the to buy and sell their livestock. Can the Secretary of farms in the countryside around Aylesbury are very State give any reassurance to farmers as to the extent to small and often run just by families, so there is limited which they will be able to use their local farmers capacity to cover for sickness. What assessment has the auction markets? 1127 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1128

George Eustice: We are looking into that issue, but it learn lessons from what happened this time and using is obviously critical to keep the food supply chain the current grant system, but I, the Secretary of State moving. and the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government are considering how the whole project Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Supermarket might be improved. queues are undoubtedly adding to the spread of coronavirus, not least because of a lack of social distancing. Doing whatever it takes means that there needs to be a sense of urgency from Government Ministers that simply has HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION not been on display thus far across Government. [Interruption.] I am sorry, but it is true. People need to see a much greater sense of urgency. Queues need to be tackled to prevent the spread within supermarkets. Will The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, the Secretary of State, with Cabinet colleagues, today representing the House of Commons Commission, was implement and enforce social distancing in supermarkets asked— to reduce the spread in that part of society? Electronic Voting

George Eustice: We will not take that measure. It was 1. Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): To ask the hon. done in Italy through a restriction on the number of Member for Perth and North Perthshire, representing people in stores, but they found that they had hundreds the House of Commons Commission, what recent of people huddled together at the entrance to the store, assessment the Commission has made of the potential so it was counterproductive. merits of introducing electronic voting. [901624] Robert Courts (Witney) (Con): There is growing concern in West Oxfordshire about the condition of the River 2. Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): To ask the Windrush, and particularly sewage discharge. Weurgently hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, representing need the Environment Agency and Thames Water to the House of Commons Commission, what recent work together to clean it up. When the immediate assessment the Commission has made of the potential emergency has eased, will the Secretary of State visit to merits of introducing electronic voting. [901625] see the river’s condition and help me to work with those two parties to make a real difference? Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire): The commission has had no recent formal discussions on The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the potential merits of electronic voting. Colleagues on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Rebecca Pow): the Procedure Committee have examined what practical Such incidents are an issue for the Environment Agency, and procedural changes to Divisions might be necessary which is the first port of call in a pollution incident. in the context of the covid-19 outbreak and I thank Water companies have water management plans and, them for their work on that. I know that they will under the new Environment Bill, will have to have continue to keep the situation under review. Any decision sewage management plans as well, which will help. Of to implement electronic voting would need to be agreed course I will meet my hon. Friend to discuss the issue. by the whole House. The commission’s responsibility for this matter would be limited to the financial and Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): I understand staffing implications of such a decision. that in 2019, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and FareShare worked on a pilot Dave Doogan: The SNP has long advocated modernising scheme to make sure that surplus food was diverted to this place so that votes do not take hours. As a still people who needed it. That is still being evaluated. relatively new Member, I am shocked by the archaic When will Ministers come up with the evaluation? Is practices that we, as Members, have to undergo in order now not a good time to put the scheme into practice? to vote. Does the hon. Member representing the House of Commons Commission ever see this House leaving George Eustice: As I said, we are working with food the late 19th century? banks and retailers to ensure that they have the supply of food they need through schemes such as FareShare. Pete Wishart: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. In my almost 20 years in this House I have probably Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): I am sure that spent the best part of a week traipsing around the all hon. Members welcome the additional investment in Division Lobbies, exercising my democratic obligations flood and coastal defences in last week’s Budget. Will as a Member of the House. It is a week that I am certain the ministerial team continue to work with local authorities I will never get back. Last July, the Procedure Committee such as Calderdale, which was flooded recently, to began an inquiry into the merits of electronic voting, ensure that existing gaps in flood defence schemes are which was interrupted by the general election in December. addressed? So far, no decision has been made to reopen that inquiry, but I encourage my hon. Friend to beat a path Rebecca Pow: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. towards the Procedure Committee to encourage it to The Government are making a massive commitment to take up the inquiry again. Knowing of his determination, flood spending and they have increased the current I am pretty certain that he will do so. programme from £2.6 billion to £5.2 billion between 2021 and 2027. They will be working with all areas that Mr Speaker: We are reminded that we do respond to have floods, listening to concerns and considerations to the commission’s views as well. 1129 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1130

Kenny MacAskill: Last week, the Leader of the House Covid-19: Remote Working declined the idea of an increased use of deferred Divisions. Given that we are in a changing landscape, that guidance 4. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): has changed and, even within this Chamber, we are now To ask the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, self-distancing, will the commission reconsider that position? representing the House of Commons Commission, what support the Parliamentary Digital Service is providing Pete Wishart: The commission is acting with the to hon. Members and staff of the House of Commons most up-to-date medical advice from Public Health to enable (a) remote working and (b) video conferencing England. If at any point it was felt that we could not during the outbreak of covid-19. [901628] continue with Divisions in their current form, all feasible alternative arrangements will be looked at and put in Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire): Enabling place. I think my hon. Friend will have noticed just how remote working for hon. Members and staff is a key responsibly this House has responded to the requests priority in the Parliamentary Digital Service’s response for social distancing. We just have to look around the to covid-19. One focus is the provision of emergency Chamber and observe how we have positioned ourselves. laptops to Members’ staff who are normally equipped I shall leave Members to form their own view about the with desktop computers. Currently, a reasonable stock wisdom of packing out the cramped Division Lobbies if of laptops is available, but it should be noted that there are any further Divisions in this House. I note that market supply has been severely disrupted. As of close there has been none this week, and I know that it is the of business on Wednesday 18 March, 56 laptops had intention of Whips throughout the House to ensure been provided to 41 hon. Members’ offices. Other IT that we will be using the Division Lobbies as infrequently equipment has been made available as requested, such as possible. as headsets for Skype for Business use. The Microsoft Office 365 suite of tools is available remotely via personal Covid-19: Access to House of Commons devices and parliamentary computers. Part of that suite is Microsoft Skype for Business, which offers one-to-one video conferencing facilities. No more extensive video 3. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): Toask the hon. Member conferencing service is yet deployed. for Perth and North Perthshire, representing the House of Commons Commission, whether the Commission Chi Onwurah: I am sure that we all agree that the plans to further restrict access to the House of Commons Parliamentary Digital Service provides amazing support in response to the outbreak of covid-19. [901626] for Members of Parliament in our wide-ranging and very demanding requirements. But our jobs are changing; Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire): The control I am not going to be able to have face-to-face contact of access to the House of Commons is vested in you, with any constituent for the foreseeable future, and my Mr Speaker, and not the commission. Mr Speaker staff will all be working from home, so we need to have announced additional access restrictions on Monday 16 support for a broad range of new applications. The March, following the statement by the Prime Minister Commissioner talks about laptops and hardware. I to prevent the risk of exposure to coronavirus. This want to know that PDS will have the resources to includes restricting access to passholders and to those support a wide range of new applications, such as video attending for business reasons, such as witnesses to conferencing. Committees. Those measures were implemented with immediate effect. Updates on Tuesday and yesterday Pete Wishart: I thoroughly agree with the hon. Lady. outline further measures to prevent the risk of exposure I think that all Members of the House will now know to covid-19, including stopping all non-essential access the value of being able to keep in contact with constituents to the estate, and from today closure of several search through video conferencing and other remote methods. and screen points around the estate. All I can say is that the PDS digital support desk will continue to offer a 24-hour-a-day service. Undoubtedly there will be delays due to the volume of calls from Clive Efford: I tabled this question when there were people working remotely, but the team will make a real rumours that Parliament would be closed and that we effort to deal with all calls as soon as they possibly can. might not be invited back after the recess. Things have As I said in my original answer, the PDS team want to now moved rapidly beyond that, and we have to appreciate ensure that as much facility and resource as possible is the members of staff who support us in keeping this given to hon. Members, and I am sure that they will be place open so that we can do the vital job of holding the working to secure and achieve that. Government to account during this crucial period. May I invite the Minister to pay tribute to those staff who Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): I meet a support us? variety of organisations at Westminster, and would now like to do this remotely. However, the Skype system to Pete Wishart: It is, in fact, me who will be invited to which the Commissioner has referred only supports congratulate the staff around the estate. Every effort connections to those with parliamentary accounts. This possible is taking place to ensure that staff are kept safe helps me to link with my team, but will the Parliamentary and that their exposure to risk is as minimal as possible. Digital Service consider making Skype accessible to The hon. Gentleman is right to identify that every effort those outwith the parliamentary network? As a new will be made to keep this place open so that we can fulfil MP, I also have new staff joining my team. What are the our democratic obligations, but that will always be done learning and development team doing to offer critical with the safety of all who use this estate in mind, and training for new starters—for example, on the Department will constantly be under review. for Work and Pensions, and so on? Will there be 1131 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1132 opportunities for those training sessions to be available communicated when we have concluded our meeting on remotely, as opposed to face-to-face as they have been Monday. It is something, even in the current conditions up to now? and with the crisis that is facing us, that the Commission takes very seriously, and we will continue to inform the Pete Wishart: Every effort will be made to ensure that House of ongoing statements and work in relation to people are connected, and all facilities will be used to restoration and renewal. keep Members of Parliament in contact with their constituents. The PDS support desk is looking at the very issues mentioned by the hon. Lady, and hopefully progress will be made on all that. I think that the lesson CHURCH COMMISSIONERS here—this seems to be required from all Members—is ensuring that we can work remotely, that all our staff are as connected as possible, and that we continue to The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, provide a level of service that we feel is commensurate representing the Church Commissioners was asked— with our roles as Members of Parliament. I am pretty Church Closure and Use certain that all Members will be providing that service in the weeks to come. 5. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): To ask the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I the Church Commissioners, what criteria the Church of welcome the hon. Gentleman’s energy to move us from England uses to decide when to close a church and offer the 19th century, particularly during these difficult times. the building to other denominations and traditions. The move to digital is important, but the telecoms [901629] companies are concerned that the sudden deluge from the entire nation moving to a digital platform will The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew overpower those platforms themselves. Has he considered Selous): I am pleased to be able to tell my hon. Friend any contingency plans in case we do need to return in that the Church opens as many, if not more churches full back to the 19th century? than it closes each year. Parishes may want to focus their mission elsewhere, if the church in question is in a Pete Wishart: All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman very remote rural location or if there is a very high is: let us not go back to the 19th century. Let us hope repair bill. Use for worship by other Christian bodies is that our 21st-century resources and infrastructure are generally considered the best use, but there are many able to cope with the increased demand that Members other suitable uses. of Parliament and other people across our community will make on them. It is beyond my remit as a member Bob Blackman: I thank my hon. Friend for that of the House of Commons Commission to be able to answer. In my constituency, we have 24 churches of comment on the failings of some of the infrastructure different denominations, yet the Christian religion is and its ability to withstand some of the demands that actually the minority. More recently, we have had a will be placed upon it. huge influx of Romanian citizens who are very keen All I can say to the right hon. Gentleman is that in churchgoers, but they cannot acquire premises. So as the House of Commons, staff in digital services will do the Church of England population dwindles, can churches everything possible to ensure that we continue to be make efforts to reach out, particularly to the Romanian connected with our constituents. I would suggest to all churches, to allow them to carry on their worship? Members that if they have any concerns about being able to work remotely or concerns about the ability of Andrew Selous: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the network to withstand things, please get in touch for explaining the situation in his constituency, and I with the 24-hour services available from digital services. can tell him that the use of church buildings by other I am sure everyone knows the number: 2001. Christian denominations is considered a very good use for any redundant Church of England church. The Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ normal procedure is that the views of the local Member Co-op): The challenges of the last few days and weeks of Parliament, the local authority and local residents have thrown up why we need to modernise this place would be considered, so if there are closed churches in and why we need to get on with restoration and renewal. his area, he will have an opportunity to get involved in I understand that the Commission is meeting on Monday that process. to discuss next steps. Is it not time that we gave the sponsor body the powers to get on with dealing with the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Can the hon. Northern Estate, make sure it is in the hands of proper Gentleman outline what advice for smaller congregations professionals who can get on with the work and make is in place at this time? Is it his interpretation that the sure that we are resilient for this sort of situation in the closure of all churches, regardless of size, is optional, or future and for many years to come? that small congregations can continue to meet, even if they do so in small numbers? Pete Wishart: I commend the hon. Lady’s creativity in being able to shoehorn restoration and renewal into Andrew Selous: As my hon. Friend knows, I speak question about digital facilities. She is absolutely right: purely for the Church of England in this place, and the the Commission will meet on Monday to consider Church of England is following exactly the health advice further measures when it comes to restoration and from the Government. I can tell him and the House that renewal. The hon. Lady is very closely connected to and while public worship has been suspended for the time interested in this work, and those measures will be being, churches remain open for prayer and in particular 1133 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1134 for baptisms, weddings and funerals. Self-distancing what steps is the Church of England taking to work will be required. Numbers in churches will be kept to a hand in glove with the Foreign and Commonwealth minimum, and no one self-isolating must attend the Office to tackle anti-Christian persecution across the ceremony. Parishes are being trained in live-streaming world? services where they can. Wellbeing and mental health resources will be published soon, and churches are of Andrew Selous: I know my hon. Friend takes a strong course encouraged to support the vulnerable who are interest in this important area. The Church is working self-isolating and to continue to support food banks closely with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and and night shelters in particular. with the Department for International Development to develop better religious literacy, and the Anglican Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): In the communion combats persecution against all people of light of my hon. Friend’s response to the hon. Member faith, or of no faith, around the world. The Church for Strangford (Jim Shannon), does he agree that, although would welcome a Magnitsky Act to target sanctions churches are not gathering for worship, they still have a against those who persecute people for their religion or vital role to play in meeting the spiritual, emotional belief, in line with recommendation 8 of the review. and, indeed, practical needs of our communities at this Quarterly progress statements on the implementation very difficult time? Although they may not be gathering of the review would also be helpful. for services and other meetings, churches are most definitely not closed. Marriage and Relationship Support

Andrew Selous: I thank my hon. Friend for that 7. Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Con): To ask the important point, and he is exactly right. The Church is hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing much more than just its buildings; it is its people. This is the Church Commissioners,what marriage and relationship an opportunity for all of us, as Christians, to reach out support the Church of England offers to couples. to others in need—there are many in all our communities— [901633] and that is exactly what the Church will be doing over the coming months. The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew Selous): Almost all couples receive marriage preparation Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): As public before a Church of England marriage service. Some worship is suspended during the coronavirus crisis, what churches later offer marriage enrichment courses and plans does the Church of England have for a national marriage MOT evenings. The Church is concerned about day of prayer? the fall in marriage rates, as well as about the breakdown of marriages, and a number of churches are taking Andrew Selous: The Archbishop of Canterbury has action to address this issue. called for a national day of prayer this Sunday. The Church is particularly keen that all Christians reach out Scott Benton: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. to look after the vulnerable in their communities, as I How does the Church aim to support couples and have just said to my hon. Friend the Member for families in this moment of national crisis, when they are St Austell and Newquay (Steve Double). The archbishop forced to spend more time together and are probably has called for people to put lighted candles in their feeling anxious, possibly with several family members windows at 7 pm on Sunday as a sign of solidarity with unwell? what the nation is currently going through. Andrew Selous: I thank my hon. Friend for that very Persecution of Christians relevant question. The new marriage and pre-marriage courses released in January are now available online as 6. Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con): To ask the digital resources that any church can forward to couples hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire, representing in isolation to help them invest in their relationship the Church Commissioners, what recent assessment when they are likely to have more time together, as well the commissioners have made of the Foreign and as more pressure on them. The pre-marriage course Commonwealth Office’s progress on implementing the welcomes and is suitable for couples who are not engaged recommendations in the Bishop of Truro’s independent but want to explore what marriage means. review for the Foreign Secretary of FCO support for persecuted Christians. [901631] Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): This is probably something to come back to once we have got The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Andrew past the immediate crisis, but what progress has been Selous): The Church of England is pleased that the made on liaising with the Department for Education on Government have repeatedly said they will implement aligning such pre-marriage education with schools’ in full the recommendations of the Truro review. The relationship education, which has now been made Church is in regular contact with the review implementation compulsory for all young people? Will that tie up? team. Promoting faith literacy among our diplomats remains work in progress, but we are reassured by Andrew Selous: I thank the hon. Lady, who I know continuing work on that aspect of the review. takes a serious interest in these issues, for her question. I can tell her that the Church is very keen to work hand in Caroline Ansell: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. glove with schools in this important area. Relationship As the world looks to navigate the challenge of the education and relationship support has a very important virus, other challenges clearly remain. Indeed, those role in our schools so that we have healthy, respectful challenges can be exacerbated in such circumstances, so marriages and relationships throughout our country. 1135 Oral Answers 19 MARCH 2020 Oral Answers 1136

Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): Andrew Selous: I thank my hon. Friend for that May I suggest that one form of marriage support the question—he has been very diligent in pursuing this Church of England might like to get on with is enacting matter for some time. I know it was a particular concern clause 1 of my Civil Partnerships, Marriages and Deaths of my predecessor, Caroline Spelman, when she was in (Registration Etc.) Act 2019, which became law a year this place. I will get my hon. Friend an update on that ago now and will overhaul marriage registration and issue. I will tell Church House about the urgency of the allow mothers’ names to go on marriage certificates for situation, and if he will allow me, I will write to him the first time since 1832? Can he give us a progress with specific details. report on whether this is at last going to happen? 1137 19 MARCH 2020 Coronavirus: Employment Support 1138

Coronavirus: Employment Support There is a straightforward and immediate solution. All employers have an account with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to pay tax for employees through 10.30 am pay-as-you-earn. The monthly wage bill is known to HMRC. Instead of firms paying PAYE to the Government, Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con) (Urgent Question): that flow should now be reversed, with the nation paying To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will make the wages of people for the next few weeks if, and only a statement about support for the wages of employees. if, they continue to employtheir staff.Separate arrangements would need to be made for the self-employed, but at a The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): stroke this would save people’s jobs, save businesses and This is an uncertain time for our country, but the put an immediate end to the risk of contagion and help Government are clear that they will do whatever it takes to save the economy. This is a crisis the like of which we to protect our people and businesses from the coronavirus have not seen for 100 years. It requires a response that is pandemic. On Tuesday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer immediate, effective and equal to the scale of the problem. set out further steps in the Government’s economic The Chancellor said that he will do whatever it takes, response, building on the initial response he outlined in and do so urgently. He now needs to make good on that the Budget last week, which included standing behind without delay. businesses, small and large, with an unprecedented package of Government backed and guaranteed loans to support John Glen: I am very grateful to my right hon. Friend businesses through this crisis. I have been working very for raising this matter. I made clear in my response the closely with him and the banks, and they are very clear urgency of the Government’s deliberations on this—it about their responsibility to make these measures work. is absolutely at the top of everything we are doing. The Government have made available an initial Ministers are working flat out, 24/7, to look at all the £330 billion of guarantees, equivalent to 15% of our options. GDP. That means that any business that needs cash to My right hon. Friend raises the specific anxieties of pay salaries will be able to access a Government-backed businesses. I recognise that the package of measures loan on attractive terms. The Government will do whatever that we have put out—with respect to statutory sick it takes to support our economy through this crisis and pay, easier access to universal credit and employment stand ready to provide further support where necessary. and support allowance, the business rates relief, the As the Chancellor announced, we will go much further small business grant facility, the local authority hardship to support people’s financial security working with funds and the HMRC forbearance measures—will for trade unions and business groups.Following his appearance some not feel sufficient at this point. However, he will at the Treasury Select Committee yesterday afternoon, also know from his experience in government that it is the Chancellor spoke to the trade unions, and he will very important that when the Government announce today be meeting the TUC, the CBI, the British Chambers the measures that we wish to take to assist with supporting of Commerce, and the Federation of Small Businesses. employees, they need to be effective and need to work. This will be with a view to urgently developing new So I say to the House and to my right hon. Friend: be in forms of employment support to help protect people’s no doubt that all options are being examined. We are jobs and incomes through this period. I am sure that looking at models that exist in other jurisdictions and you will appreciate, Mr Speaker, that these are when, very imminently, the Chancellor comes to the unprecedented times. The Chancellor has said that he House, we want to be sure that what we announce will will look at further steps to help protect jobs and be effective. incomes, and he will announce further details in due course. Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab): It is now six and a half weeks since the first cases of coronavirus were reported Greg Clark: For much of yesterday,like many Members in the UK. For over a month we have known about the of the House, including the hon. Member for Birmingham, substantial risk that coronavirus poses to the economy Erdington (Jack Dromey), with whom I have been and to workers, yet the Government have announced no working, I was speaking to businesses in our constituencies plan to protect jobs and wages—no full plan for who are facing a crisis. With revenue collapsing and no employment support. We are all—all of us—inundated knowledge of when normal trading can resume, they with so many questions, and I have just four of those see no choice but to lay off workers now. The loan questions to ask. scheme that the Chancellor announced on Tuesday is not enough to prevent that. These businesses have no People are asking us: why, for example, have Denmark, idea when they will be able to pay back the debts they which had its first coronavirus case on 27 February, and would incur and it provides no reason to keep staff New Zealand, which had its first case on 28 February, employed. In fact, the reverse is true because, the smaller four weeks after our first case, both announced the wage bill, the less would have to be borrowed. On comprehensive job protection plans, while we have Tuesday, the Chancellor promised that there would be announced nothing to secure people’s jobs and wages? employment support, but as each day goes by, businesses Given that, the second question is: what consideration are making decisions that will be irreversible and if the has been given to the models in Denmark and Austria, Government do not act immediately, large numbers of which the Economic Secretary referred to, which involve people will be unemployed and registering them will put the Government paying the bulk of people’s wages in huge pressure on the welfare system. Vital skills will be exchange for job guarantees? lost and good businesses, which will themselves be The third question is: why, when the Chancellor the customers and suppliers of other businesses, will announced the loan guarantee on Tuesday, did the cease trading. Government not tie those loans into an undertaking 1139 Coronavirus: Employment Support19 MARCH 2020 Coronavirus: Employment Support 1140 from business that no one would be laid off? The fourth within days by a Department that already has the question: will the Minister accept that freelancers will ability to do that while he gets on with the other need additional support if they do not qualify for facilities. statutory sick pay? For example, in the culture sector we have as many as 2 million people, hundreds of thousands John Glen: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who of whom may be affected. has unrivalled experience in this area. He makes some The country deserves answers to those questions as a very reasonable points, and we are looking very carefully matter of urgency.We will continue to ask these questions at all the options. As I said earlier, when we have not as a matter of political point scoring or ideology, decided—very imminently—the Chancellor will make but to ensure that we have a Government response that announcements to this House first. properly protects the public and matches the scale of David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): In recent days, the crisis affecting us here and now, not just next week. the Chancellor has already outlined support for business, which the SNP has welcomed. In Scotland, that support John Glen: It is in order for the hon. Gentleman to has been passed on in full by our Finance Secretary, raise those points, and he is right to draw attention to Kate Forbes. However, I remain concerned that not the experience in Denmark. Throughout this crisis, the enough support is being mobilised for sole traders, Government have acted on the best scientific and health freelancers and the self-employed. Today though, our advice, and that has clearly had to move over time. That focus is rightly on people, many of whom are already advice has been challenged and questioned, and the self-isolating or moving to work from home, if indeed Prime Minister and the Cabinet have made decisions they can. But bills are still coming in and rent payments based on the best advice available. Consequent to the are being sought, and so I welcome the news that some health advice, which is clearly motivated to relieve as support will be put in place, for example, for payment much pressure as possible on the NHS, there are other for energy bills. The question is who is eligible for that, issues that we are dealing with urgently, and sequentially and will that go far enough. Will the Government use we are offering that advice as urgently as we can in the tax system to put thousands of pounds in people’s different domains. pockets by way of an emergency universal basic income? The hon. Gentleman asked about the Danish experience, Will the Government extend statutory sick pay to the 2 and we are looking at the furlough system. We are million people who earn less than £118 a week and looking at the proportion of support that is available, benchmark it to at least the real living wage? and we are also looking at the German system. In the Firms are already starting to make staff redundant, last significant recession that happened in 2009-10—that but we need to stem the flow of that immediately, and is broadly the comparator that we could use—only 3% today. The Government should introduce a statutory of German firms were helped. We are aware of what is retention scheme to provide firms with financial support happening in the US, and we are aware of the proposals to keep staff in employment during this uncertain time. that have been put forward by various think-tanks this Now more than ever, our social security system needs morning. We are looking thoroughly at all those options, to kick in. To protect families impacted by hardship and but it is very important that we have a system that strengthen automatic stabilisers that support demands delivers the support that is required to employers. in the economy, does the Minister agree that the main Wehave extended the coronavirus business interruption adult rate of out of work support in universal credit loan to up to £5 million. It is clear that there will be no and other benefits, including carer’s allowance, should interest payable in the first six months and no fees, and rise by a third to £100 per week? obviously we expect businesses to use that to support We are in the midst of a national emergency the likes their employees during this time. of which I have never seen before. How this generation of politicians responds to the crisis will be how history Several hon. Members rose— judges us. During the financial crisis of 2008, no expense was spared to bail out the banks, so today with the Mr Speaker: To assist the House, I can say that I coronavirus outbreak we must similarly be prepared to expect this to run until around 11.15. bail out household budgets at this time of economic crisis. It calls for us all to rise to the occasion. Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con): I commend my hon. Friend and I agree John Glen: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. It with him—that is something that the Government should is important that the Government do whatever it takes be moving on now, but there is something else the in these circumstances. He raises a number of specific Government could do literally today. Universal credit points. He will be familiar with the changes we have has three basic levers that can all be pulled now enormously made in terms of access to statutory sick pay and to help people who are in work. First, the taper could be eligibility starting much sooner; that commenced from lowered dramatically at this stage, which would push 13 March. He will be aware that, to make that easier, the floor right up underneath people in work at the there is now no need to have a GP note. He makes moment, allowing them to fall back on that if employers number of points on universal credit and changing the cannot deal with them. Secondly, Ministers could change eligibility there.Advances are available online; the minimum benefit rates, allowing a greater expanse of money to income floor has been temporarily released. He also flow to claimants: that could be done today. The third makes a number of points about freelancers and the area where my hon. Friend could act is to look at the self-employed, which the Government are clear about. waiting time and reduce that almost immediately. Those The hon. Gentleman mentioned the universal basic three things were always built into the system for flexibility income. The Government are looking at that, but the and they can be done today. They can be delivered question whether it will help the most affected most 1141 Coronavirus: Employment Support19 MARCH 2020 Coronavirus: Employment Support 1142

[John Glen] question of making sure that when we announce measures, they will be effective in meeting the needs that we know urgently is one we have to consider. Many of us in this exist. All of us, across the House, will have been inundated House, for example, would not require such support. with emails from concerned individuals and businesses. We have to ensure that we target it at the most vulnerable. We are taking that on board and acting as swiftly as we can. The points raised today are directly informing the Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I have had a lot of nature of our response. emails on this subject, so may I ask the Minister again how the Government are going to support freelancers Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) and the self-employed? They are desperately worried. (Lab): I understand that this is very difficult for the Government and I am sympathetic, but this is about John Glen: My hon. and gallant Friend is right to real people’slives. The Treasury’snatural approach—being raise that. We have changed the rules on access to cautious and wanting to stress-test everything—is not employment support allowance and sick pay. It will appropriate in these circumstances.The right hon. Member depend on individual circumstances. Wehave also released for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan funds to local authorities for hardship relief. Further Smith) suggested some really good ideas. Why can they advice on that will be given tomorrow by the Ministry not just be implemented today? of Housing, Communities and Local Government. John Glen: I understand the hon. Lady’s frustration. Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I very much agree It is totally reasonable for Members of this House to be with the proposals just made by the right hon. Member extremely concerned in the absence of the announcement, for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan but it would be even worse, I would suggest, if we made Smith). It is particularly important that the advances ad hoc announcements when different Government paid to people claiming universal credit become non- Departments were not quite ready to implement those repayable for those affected by the crisis. The Minister effectively. We are talking about an unprecedented crisis, mentioned the suspension of the minimum income and therefore we will need to take unprecedented measures. floor for self-employed people—a welcome announcement It is important that we do that as swiftly as possible, but made by the Chancellor in the Budget—but it appears it is also important that we do it as effectively as to relate only to people who are directly affected by possible. covid-19, whereas many of those suffering at the moment Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) are not themselves ill but are affected by the wider (Con): I thank my hon. Friend for his recent changes in the economy. Will the Economic Secretary announcements, and I absolutely understand that we confirm that the lifting of the minimum income floor are living in unprecedented times. In my constituency, will apply also to those who are not directly affected? hospitality and hotels are obviously huge employers. Is Will we know the details of the employment support there any scope for the suspension of national insurance package—I am glad the Government are working on contributions, which would really help many of the that—before this weekend? chains, and particularly the smaller hotels? From speaking to those at the Goring hotel this week, I know that they John Glen: The right hon. Gentleman makes some are very concerned, and they are now offering their specific points essentially about the consequential effects hotel to the Government for anything they need—for on different groups of employees who are affected. I hospitals or for employees. Suspending NI contributions cannot comment on the details of that. As for the would be great. timing of the employment support announcement, we are working on it as quickly as we can. There is no John Glen: I thank my hon. Friend for her suggestions. timetable or specific date because we have got to get it Obviously,we have made a specific package of interventions right. We are working as urgently as possible, but I available in the retail, leisure and hospitality sectors. We cannot tell him the precise moment at this point. also have the grant facility at a high level for those sectors. She makes a reasonable point, and we will look Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): at it—and we are looking at it—very carefully. I commend my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) for his urgent question Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): I was here on and endorse everything he said. Those of us who are Tuesday night when the Chancellor made his statement, not in the engine room of Government are being told and there can be no doubt what the attitude of the by our constituents that, welcome though Tuesday’s House was at that time. It was that the package of loans package was, it is simply not going to be enough. When and other measures announced by the Chancellor on diehards such as my right hon. Friend the Member for that occasion would not be sufficient. It would not be Wokingham (John Redwood) and Allister Heath of The sufficient for those who are relying on benefits, it would Daily Telegraph are lining up for far more radical measures not be sufficient for those who are already finding than the Government have yet announced, the Government themselves out of work, and it would not be sufficient must take note. May I urge the Government to say for the self-employed. Here we are two days later, and something today to give people assurance that the help the Minister is telling us that there simply has not been will come? time to consider these things. This is urgent, and we really must have action now. Why is it taking so long? John Glen: I thank my right hon. Friend for his observations. He is right, but there is no sense that the John Glen: Every day, Ministers across all Departments Government are saying that what we have announced is are working on different aspects of the package. Yesterday the last announcement we are going to make. It is a my right hon. Friend the Housing, Communities and 1143 Coronavirus: Employment Support19 MARCH 2020 Coronavirus: Employment Support 1144

Local Government Secretary brought forward some Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): The very measures for renters. We also have the three-month essence of the hospitality industry is to provide social relief for mortgage holders where they need it, and for contact. Does the Minister understand the real anger of buy-to-let mortgage holders. There is more work being many in that industry that the Government have given done urgently to give clarity on the elements that Members advice to their customers but not to them? If the of the House are raising, but, as I said earlier, it is a Government believe premises should close, they should question of making sure that when these measures are say so, and they should accept the consequences of announced, they are going to be effective and can be paying people whose idleness is enforced because of a delivered efficiently. contribution to a public health emergency. What is so hard to understand is that the system for doing that is Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): The feedback I am staring the Government in the face. It already exists. It receiving is that many businesses will have difficulty in is called Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. That is a accessing Government loans because of restrictions system for taking money out of wage packets every they have in granting additional security to a new month and giving it to the Government; now, it should lender. With that in mind, may I urge the Government be put into reverse to put money into the pockets of to support payroll costs far more directly, as other those employees. European Governments are doing? This is the way to avoid large-scale redundancies. John Glen: The hon. Gentleman is right to express the deep frustration of people in that sector, and I am John Glen: My hon. Friend refers to the loans. I was sure his words resonate across the House. We have put meeting the banks last night to make sure that these in resources for 2,000 people from HMRC to take calls loans are accessible. The criteria for issuing them are for bespoke solutions to deal with some of those issues. based on the solvency of businesses prior to this crisis He is right that there is also an issue in terms of access arising. It is absolutely clear that the banks see they to insurance. I was on a conference call with the insurance have a massive responsibility to make this scheme work. industry to clarify that where insurance has been taken That term sheet is being finalised; it may already have out, that will be effective. However, he is perfectly right been finalised this morning. The banks are now working that more work needs to be done, and I have been very on making sure that that will be available through all clear that more will be forthcoming imminently. their call centres and branches. He makes the suggestion of a supplementary measure, and we are looking at Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): I thank the Minister these things very carefully. for the measures that he has already taken to help the self-employed, but my constituency has the highest Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): A number of self-employed in the country, so will he constituent of mine works in a residential home for elaborate on what tax incentives, or tax advice or support, adults with learning disabilities. Her son’s school will be can be given to the self-employed at this time, particularly closed from Monday. She does not know whether she is during April over the end of the financial year? considered a key worker, and even if she is, as seems obvious, her son has respiratory problems, so she is John Glen: As I said to the hon. Member for Edinburgh uncertain whether she wants to send him to school. Her East (Tommy Sheppard), people have access to an employer says she will not be paid and is not even HMRC support line, which is properly manned and up entitled to statutory sick pay if she cannot come into and running. That should give them bespoke support work because of childcare. What should she do? Where for their circumstances. I have referred to the package is the clear advice and guidance, and where is the of other measures that the Chancellor announced a few helpline for the thousands of other constituents of mine days ago. and of every single Member in this House? Where can they get answers, because they are so worried? Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab): Charities such John Glen: The hon. Lady makes a reasonable point as Faith in Families in my constituency are really nervous about the concerns that are being raised. That is why that they will not be able to pay their wages. Without the Cabinet Office will give further advice today on key staff, they cannot deliver the projects for which they are workers and the support that will be given. I recognise applying for funding, which would provide food and that yesterday’s announcement on schools will be a childcare facilities in very deprived areas. That is necessary significant disruption to the lives of many of our citizens. now; it will become essential in the future. What can the It is very important that we put in place urgently clarity Government do to help those charities? about who is involved—who is designated in those categories—and the support that will be available. I will John Glen: The hon. Lady is right with respect to the ensure that her point, which I am sure reflects the views role that charities play across our communities, binding of many, gets to the Cabinet Office after this session. communities together and working closely with local authorities. My colleague in the Ministry of Housing, Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Given that Communities and Local Government is working on the suggestions of my right hon. Friend the Member for these matters, and we will make further announcements Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) shortly. could be implemented so speedily, will the Minister undertake to try immediately after this session to get an Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I answer on whether they should be implemented? echo the calls for urgent support for British tourism, which I know the Minister will be familiar with in his John Glen: I thank my right hon. Friend for that constituency. In the Bournemouth area, tourism is worth question. Of course I will. more than £1 billion and directly employs 17,000 people. 1145 Coronavirus: Employment Support19 MARCH 2020 Coronavirus: Employment Support 1146

[Mr Tobias Ellwood] John Glen: The Government will do whatever it takes, but we also want to make sure that when we do it, it will I received a letter from David Bailey, who is chair of the be effective. The hon. Gentleman made a specific point Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole destination about statutory sick pay, and the Government will management board. He talks about lay-offs happening bring forward a package of measures in due course. right now, as we speak, affecting the future of businesses. He asks whether it would be better if, rather than Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Many of the handing out benefit claims, the Government provided “just about managing” are not managing, and there will salaries immediately. That would mean the industry be many more of them in the next few days. The last could retain the skills that will be needed to spearhead thing we need at this time is an over-engineered new the economic recovery and would reduce the number of system. As a humble Back Bencher, I have heard many businesses that cease to trade. Will the Government good ideas in the Chamber this morning—particularly consider that? from my right hon. Friends the Members for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) and for John Glen: My right hon. Friend makes some very Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) and the right hon. Member reasonable points about the tourism sector just down for East Ham (Stephen Timms). If those three right the road from my constituency. The issue of what we do hon. Members are not in No. 11 for a meeting later to support sectors that are directly and immediately today, I will be really disappointed. We have had the affected by the action we have had to take will be at the architect of universal credit in the Chamber, and he has front of our minds as we examine what employment given the Government the answer to their problem. support to put in place. Please can we get a move on?

Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): After six and a half John Glen: I take the challenge from my hon. Friend weeks, when we knew we might reach this stage, it is in the spirit in which it was intended. There is no sense hard to understand why the Government have no idea that the Treasury is trying to over-engineer anything. what they are going to do to pay the wages of those who We are not trying to restrain spending for the sake of are being laid off. A whole tranche of people are going restraining it. We want to bring forward an effective to be laid off now, and more industries will lay people package of measures that effectively meets the needs of off next week and the week after. If the Government do the most vulnerable. My hon. Friend makes the reasonable not act now, they will not be able to retrieve the situation. point that a number of colleagues of great seniority How have we got to the point where the Government have raised significant points of interest, and I will have not got a clue? ensure that their contributions are heard at the heart of this process today. John Glen: I accept the hon. Gentleman’s frustration, Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): but characterising the Government as not having a clue Dental practices are at high risk of spreading coronavirus, misrepresents the situation considerably. There are a yet there was nothing for them in the financial package large number of issues that we need to examine, and we on Tuesday, which means they have to stay open, with are doing so at pace. Wewill make further announcements an increased risk of spreading coronavirus. Will the to address those that have been raised in the House Government give assurances that they will cover fixed-price today. We have sequentially done more by the day, dental costs so that dentists can close and provide only reflecting the evolving nature of this crisis and the steps urgent care? we have had to take, based on health and scientific advice. I understand that the hon. Gentleman is not happy with the Government’s announcements so far, John Glen: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting but more will be coming. point. I will take it back to my colleagues in the Department of Health and Social Care and see what can be done.

Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): This weekend, Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Many of the pubs, clubs, restaurants and other retail outlets will be Government’s schemes have to be delivered through considering whether to close on an almost permanent retail banks, which means people and businesses calling basis, and the people employed in them have an uncertain already overloaded call centres and going into retail future. However, most of them are relatively young and branches—where they exist—which might restrict hours mobile, and they are able to offer help and assistance to over the coming days. Most banks and most large the weak and vulnerable. Could we not guarantee loans private sector companies in this country that rely on to those outlets on the condition that those people some phone contact have resilience and contingency continue to be paid and that they then become part of a places dotted around the country that have pop-up call volunteer force to help the weak and vulnerable at this centres in times of crisis. Could the Government deploy time of crisis? those to ensure that desperate immediate-need calls from businesses and individuals are dealt with as quickly John Glen: As ever, my hon. Friend makes a sensible as possible? suggestion. I will look at it carefully. John Glen: My hon. Friend makes a very good point Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): I do wish Ministers about the resilience required in banks at this difficult would stop using hyperbole such as “whatever it takes”, time. I discussed that with the heads of the banks last when they do not follow through sufficiently quickly.Will night and over the previous two days. We need to ensure the Government extend SSP to support all workers and that the terms of these loans are effective in allowing pay it at the rate of the real living wage straightaway? people to access them swiftly and we need to ensure that 1147 Coronavirus: Employment Support19 MARCH 2020 Coronavirus: Employment Support 1148 the banks can ramp up the accessibility of their specialist the third sector needs to know that their living costs will advisers. I have been given assurances that that will be be covered. The Government need to show the urgency in place. that the Minister talks about and they need to show it today. Will the Chancellor come back today and make a Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ statement on how they will deliver this? Co-op): So many of my constituents are caught up in this, like those of other hon. Members, and I have John Glen: The hon. Gentleman is perfectly right that constituents who have no recourse to public funds, so we need a comprehensive package that deals with businesses, when they are unable to work they cannot claim benefits. the voluntary sector and individual employees of different Many are freelancers and people who are self-employed categories. We are looking very carefully at the best way and running small businesses. None of the packages the to do that, in addition to the significant package of Government have announced help them so far. The measures we have introduced. I feel his frustration and I Minister has had to be dragged here to answer an will take all these points back and make sure that they urgent question and has nothing he can say that will are addressed. comfort our constituents. I think we all recognise that it is difficult, but could he not even give us a clue about Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): The greatest the general direction of thinking from the Government? difficulty for the Government in this fast-deteriorating Will he raise the local housing allowance? Will the situation of no one’s making is the speed of response. Government ensure that those with no recourse to My worry is that the business interruption loans package public funds get funded? Will they stop this ridiculous will be too clunky for most small and medium-sized loan system, which will never get paid back? Businesses businesses, and the cash grants will take too long to get will go bankrupt before they can pay it, and they are to businesses before decisions are made about jobs. Will laying off staff now. the Minister look closely at the recommendation of our right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells John Glen: The hon. Lady raises a number of sensible (Greg Clark)? If that were put in place, some of the points. We are looking at many of them. I reassure her recommendations made by my right hon. Friend the that we will make further announcements very soon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Yes, we are looking at the ideas raised. We are looking Duncan Smith) on universal credit would not be so at other jurisdictions. But in some cases we have a very important. different set of processes and IT systems behind some of these Government Department distribution mechanisms. John Glen: I note the point that my hon. Friend I know that that is very technical, but the bottom line is makes about the clunkiness of existing measures, and that we need to ensure that when we introduce something, obviously we are looking at the point raised by my right it delivers. hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): I support strongly refers to the accessibility of the loans. The Government the ideas on the universal employment retention package guarantee to the banks through the British Business proposed by several right hon. Friends, and I hope that Bank is in order to provide a massive incentive to the Government take it on board to prevent a health making the loans available to solvent businesses as crisis becoming an economic disaster. In addition, briefly, quickly as possible, but I hear his concerns, and they are rateable value capped at £51,000 is too low for medium-sized reflected in the design and in conversations that we are tourism employers such as the Seaview Hotel. Secondly, having with the banks. we need clarity in the system because my chamber of commerce still does not know how to apply. Thirdly, we Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): Does the need a package for the voluntary sector. West Wight Minister not understand that a universal minimum sports centre is a world-leading sailing academy and a income guarantee does exactly what it says on the tin? It major employer on my patch. We need either a voluntary will provide that minimum level playing field for tenants sector package or a universal employment retention and their landlords,for business owners and their employees; programme. it will provide everyone with a minimum level of assurance so that they can have some certainty in this time of John Glen: I thank my hon. Friend for his points; he uncertainty. raises a number of interesting ideas. He is absolutely right about the voluntary sector needing support. As I John Glen: Yes, I recognise the provisions of a universal have indicated, there will be a package coming and minimum income guarantee, and we are looking at that. different Departments are working together to make We are looking at a number of options, and will bring this as effective and comprehensive as possible. His forward a response as quickly as we can. constituency has a number of issues regarding the hospitality and leisure sector, and I am very aware of Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): Like many Members, the representations he has been making to Government I have been fielding calls for the past 10 days from over the previous few days. businesses that are sitting on the wire, wondering whether their futures are safeguarded. Has the Minister looked Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Letting many at the possibility of a VAT rebate for businesses that are people get into rent or mortgage arrears or asking desperately trying to hold on to their employees to businesses to take on debt are not the answers. They are ensure that they have a future? Will he please look into just going to make the crisis worse—[HON.MEMBERS: that, and will he also ensure that we have greater clarification “And longer.”] Yes, thank you. Every business, every of whether pubs are open or closed, because that is employee, every self-employed person and everybody in causing much greater distress than it needs to cause? 1149 Coronavirus: Employment Support19 MARCH 2020 Coronavirus: Employment Support 1150

John Glen: My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point John Glen: The hon. Lady will know that a large about the hospitality sector,and a very credible suggestion number of the grants and loans schemes will be accessible with respect to VAT. Across the benefits system and the to all sectors, as well as grants from the local authority. tax system, we are looking at the optimisation of Comprehensive advice went out to all hon. Members interventions to support the most vulnerable and most last night setting out all that information, and there will affected at this time, and to give reassurance to the be further announcements. Sector-specific issues are whole country. We will urgently bring forward measures best addressed through the Department for Environment, to address the concerns that he has raised. Food and Rural Affairs, but I hope the announcements that we have made will give some interim comfort to her Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Individuals constituents at this difficult time. are losing their jobs now—they are in desperate need now. Andrew Brown, a freelance graphic designer in my Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I constituency, contacted me this morning; his business am afraid that it is quite evident that the Government has folded overnight, and he cannot apply for any have lost support and confidence across the Chamber, grants because he works from home. What does he do in and that is echoed by the markets. We have seen a 5% that situation? The Minister talks about the great package drop in sterling, which will translate into higher food that was announced the other night, but councils still and energy prices for already hard-pressed households. do not have the guidance to get that money out to In Warwick and Leamington, we are losing jobs and businesses. I urge him to get that out as a matter of good businesses. Will the Minister support the comments urgency, because this morning Durham County Council of the right hon. Members for Chingford and Woodford told me that it will not be available until the weekend, Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) and for Tunbridge Wells and that is too late. (Greg Clark) and introduce some form of universal income support to restore both the supply and demand John Glen: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his side? points. I accept the need to give urgent advice through the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Mr Speaker: We are going to have to speed up. Government. My understanding is that that advice will be coming tomorrow. I understand— John Glen: I acknowledge the point on the minimum income guarantee, which I have responded to previously. Mr Kevan Jones: It is too late—businesses are going On co-ordination with the Bank of England, we have bust now. worked with the Financial Conduct Authority to introduce better forbearance measures for the banks so that they John Glen: I understand the frustration felt in the can act effectively and use their flexibilities. Obviously House. We are all receiving emails from constituents the bridging facility that the Bank of England has who are in a state of great anxiety. The Government are brought forward for bigger businesses is also important. working— Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): Will the Minister assure Mr Kevan Jones: You are not! us that the package of measures that the Government intend to bring forward will offer support to the self- John Glen: We are collectively working as hard as we employed, sole traders and freelancers who may not can to come up with the right package as soon as themselves be ill but who may have already lost work possible. due to the economic disruption of covid-19?

Several hon. Members rose— John Glen: I confirm to the hon. Gentleman that we are looking at the most comprehensive package that we Mr Speaker: We are really going to have to speed up. can bring forward that deals with all sectors and all categories. We want it to be effective to deal with the Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): There are more micro- reality of the challenges that our country faces. businesses in Buckinghamshire than in any other county in the country.I pay tribute to Buckinghamshire Business Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): May I First, which is working extremely hard to try to support raise a specific question with the Minister? Childminders them, but may I urge my hon. Friend to take the unique and childcare providers in my constituency tell me that, needs of micro-businesses into account in the measures although they have insurance if they have to close their that he is developing? businesses as a result of a notifiable disease, which covid-19 clearly now is, insurance companies are saying John Glen: My hon. Friend makes a reasonable point that they will not provide the cover, because it does not about the nature of the businesses across his constituency. appear on the list of notifiable diseases. Will the Minister We need to ensure that we have an effective intervention take that up urgently with the industry? for all workers. John Glen: I have taken that up urgently with the Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): industry. Businesses take out business relief, and then Our farmers, crofters and fishers are crucially producing about 5% take out insurance for non-specified diseases, our food, but the situation has rocked those sectors to and 5% for specified diseases. We have made sure that their foundations. Will the Minister outline what specific for those that have taken insurance for specified diseases, considerations are being given to supporting those sectors, that will be triggered by the Government’s announcement so that they can continue their vital work? this week, and the other package of measures will 1151 Coronavirus: Employment Support19 MARCH 2020 Coronavirus: Employment Support 1152 support businesses that do not have that insurance. We the public health response? Job losses are contagious. cannot retrofit contractual obligations to insurance Fear of economic hardship will spread the virus. The companies. technical details can wait, but he needs to say now— today—that in principle he will guarantee the incomes Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): The Minister is of everyone at a level that provides security. a decent man, but there is a feeling across the Chamber that Treasury Ministers, and the Chancellor in particular, John Glen: We will do what it takes to support find it difficult to empathise with the situation that workers who are in distress. We have brought forward a people find themselves in and do not speak human very package of measures, some of which will be imminently well. I appeal to Ministers to show a bit more understanding delivered, such as the unprecedented loan scheme. We of the predicament facing freelancers and the self-employed have also added a number of grant schemes available who have lost all their work, and perhaps take on board through local authorities and reliefs from business rates, simple ideas, such as that of the right hon. Member for and additional measures will be coming imminently. Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark). Reverse the polarity—it usually works. Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Ind): The Links market is the largest street fair in Europe and John Glen: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman has been happening every spring for the last 700 years wishes to criticise the tone of my response. I am clear in Kirkcaldy. Unfortunately, as a result of coronavirus, that this is an unprecedented crisis. The Government the Scottish section of the Showmen’s Guild of Great have made a series of announcements, and will be Britain has had to take the reluctant decision to postpone making further announcements. A range of sensible the event this year. That is going to cause significant suggestions have been made, many of which we are hardship for their members. It will also have a significant already examining urgently. impact on the local economy because it attracts many In response to specific questions about technical matters, visitors. What support will be available to get them I have had to use quite complex and unfamiliar through this difficult time and preserve their important constructions. If I did not do that, I would not be fair? answering the question. If I used too many soundbites, I would be criticised in another way.Wewill do everything John Glen: The hon. Gentleman highlights what many we can to take on board the questions that have been colleagues are going to experience: events that have raised today to come forward with a comprehensive been planned and have been going on for many, many package that all our constituents will see as effective. decades will be cancelled as a result of what is happening. The package of measures that we have announced will Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): I asked the Government be accessible to many of those people. The sectors that 10 days ago whether they would guarantee the wages, are involved will sometimes have sector-specific packages, rents and business rates of small businesses. The measures where there has been a direct effect as a consequence of that have been announced are riddled with problems. Government decisions, and we are urgently working on Businesses in St Albans tell me that they do not qualify a broader package with respect to employees. for the secured loans or the grants up to £25,000, and they are being told that business interruption insurance Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): I am sure will be payable only after the event when the insurance that the Minister will have heard the cross-party consensus company can see how much they have lost. That is not here. If the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex good enough. Businesses are saying that Her Majesty’s (Sir Bernard Jenkin) and I are in complete agreement, Revenue and Customs must be used, not the benefits something is happening, so on behalf of the 130,000 system; that they need grants, not loans; and that wages people of Bristol West, I plead with him to take every for all must be guaranteed, and guaranteed today. single one of these suggestions straight back to the Treasury and to put them into practice today. John Glen: I will not reiterate some of the responses I have given, in the interests of time, but I am very happy to look at the specific insurance point, as a responsible John Glen: The hon. Lady can absolutely take my Minister, and see what I can do. assurance that we are working to absorb all ideas from across the House that can be actioned. I brought forward Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): Can I ask legislation previously in this House building a cross-party about people who use registered childminders who now consensus, and we would seek to do so on this, too. will not be able to do so? Quite understandably,childminders are still asking for the fees, because otherwise they will Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): The Minister is very be short. We now have people who cannot go to work keen to point out that he understands the frustration of because they have to look after their children, but if Members and their constituents. Can I assist him by they are self-employed, they cannot get money either. pointing out that it is no longer frustration, but desperation? What support is available to help them? What we need are not loans; we need grants. Businesses in Angus are asking me why they should take out a loan John Glen: The Government are very aware of that to provide incomes for people who cannot work, through particular category. We are looking very carefully at no fault of their own. That looks dangerously like what we can do and an urgent announcement will be welfare, and delivering welfare is the responsibility of made with respect to that issue. Government. When will the Government deliver?

Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): John Glen: I understand the use of the word Can I say to the Minister as constructively as possible “desperation”—I recognise that, and that is why we are that his Government’s economic response is undermining working urgently to have a package of measures, and 1153 Coronavirus: Employment Support 19 MARCH 2020 1154

[John Glen] Windrush Lessons Learned Review extend that package of measures, so that there are a range of options to businesses of different sizes in 11.25 am different situations, based on their sector and the risks The Secretary of State for the Home Department that they face. (Priti Patel): With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on the long-awaited Windrush lessons learned Mr Speaker: Last, but certainly never least, I call Jim review. Shannon. I dedicate this statement to the Windrush generation. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The first coronavirus I have personally been deeply moved by reading this death has been confirmed in Northern Ireland, and I report. Given the national significance of this issue, I wish, through the House, to convey our commiserations have published the review immediately. I thank Wendy to the family. Williams and her team for the important work they have undertaken. I have been contacted by a school bus driver on a zero-hours contract who normally works 45 hours a The Windrush lessons learned review gives voice to week but has now been told that there is no work for members of the Windrush generation who legally arrived him until further notice. Does his employer not have an in the UK to help rebuild post-war Britain. These men obligation to pay his wages, and the wages of others in and women built their lives and their home in Britain. the same boat? What is the Minister’s message to help These people have done so much for this country, from this employee? staffing the NHS to rebuilding Britain. These are the very people who worked hard, paid their taxes and had every right to be in this country. John Glen: I am very happy to look at that individual’s circumstance. We have made interventions to provide They contributed to our communities, culture and advances of ESA and to remove the minimum income society, helping our public services and our economy to floor. It is clear that we will need to do more to support thrive. They made our country stronger, more vibrant employees who have been specifically affected by the and more successful as a nation. That is why we were all tough decisions we have taken. I am very sorry to hear shocked to discover that they and their families were of the first death in Northern Ireland. subject to such insensitive treatment by the very country they called home. As this review makes clear, some members of the Windrush generation suffered terrible injustices, spurred by institutional failings, spanning successive Governments over several decades. That includes “ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the…race and the history of the Windrush generation”. Today’s publication is part of an ongoing mission to put this right and ensure such events can never happen again, as there were far too many victims of Windrush. Paulette Wilson was detained in an immigration removal centre and warned that she faced removal after living in the UK for 50 years. She spent decades contributing to the UK—working for a time in this very House—yet she was treated like a second-class citizen. Junior Green had been in the UK for more than 60 years, raising children and grandchildren here, but after a holiday to Jamaica he was refused re-entry despite holding a passport confirming his right to be in the UK. The injustice he suffered was compounded when, because of this action, he missed his mother’s funeral. Lives were ruined and families were torn apart. Now,an independent review has suggested that the Home Office’s “institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of race and the history of the Windrush generation” contributed to it. This is simply unacceptable. I have heard people speak of the decision making as a process that grinds people down to the extent that it makes them want to give up. I have heard people speak of being dismissed, and being labelled as a group of people who just do not matter and whose voice on this issue is irrelevant. People have spoken to me of the indignity and inhumanity they still feel today following the experience of being made to feel unwelcome in their own country. 1155 Windrush Lessons Learned Review19 MARCH 2020 Windrush Lessons Learned Review 1156

They have described their experiences as unthinkable and Cardiff to Coventry. However, there are still people and unimaginable. However, there are people across the out there in need of our help who we have not yet UK and even some Members of this House—including reached. That is why in February, I extended the length myself and the shadow Home Secretary—for whom of the compensation scheme by a further two years so this is unfortunately all too relatable. that claims can be submitted until April 2023. I set up There are lessons to learn for the Home Office, but the Windrush stakeholder advisory group to rebuild also for society as a whole. Despite the diverse and open links with communities to ensure that they are supported nature of our country, too many people still feel that through compensation, but also to rebuild the trust that they may be treated differently because of who they are has been broken. or where their parents came from. Today’s report, which Today, I can confirm we will launch an expanded suggests that in the Home Office there was an cross-Government Windrush working group to develop “institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of programmes to improve the lives of those affected. That race and the history of the Windrush generation” may be through employment programmes, dedicated is worrying for us all. mental health support and specialist education and training schemes. To ensure that people know about the In her report, Wendy Williams is clear that lessons taskforce, the Windrush compensation scheme will have must be learned at all levels and by all political parties. a dedicated communications campaign promoting the She describes a set of measures that evolved under scheme. We will also open a £500,000 fund for grassroots Labour, coalition and Conservative Governments. Those organisations to promote these schemes, including measures cover decades. She states that Ministers did provisions for specialist advice services. I would like to not sufficiently question unintended consequences and extend my personal thanks to Martin Forde QC for his that officials should and could have done more. We support with the creation of the scheme. must all look to ourselves. We must all do better at walking in other people’s shoes. We must all take I want to put on record my thanks to my responsibility for the failings that led to the unimaginable predecessors—my right hon. Friends the Members for suffering of this generation. Bromsgrove (Sajid Javid) and for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and the former Member for Hastings and Rye—who Let me be clear, Mr Speaker. Nothing I can say today worked hard to understand and undo the suffering will undo the pain, suffering and misery inflicted on the when these issues first came to light, and other Members, Windrush generation. What I can do is say that on including the right hon. Members for Tottenham behalf of this and successive Governments, I am truly (Mr Lammy) and for Normanton, Pontefract and sorry for the actions that spanned decades. I am sorry Castleford (Yvette Cooper), who shone a necessary that people’s trust has been betrayed. We will continue light on this injustice. I also want to thank the thousands to do everything possible to ensure that the Home of civil servants at the Home Office and across Government Office protects, supports and listens to every single part who work tirelessly every single day in challenging and of the community it serves. demanding jobs to keep the public and our country Action has already begun. In recent months, I have safe. Whether on the frontline or working to develop met and listened to people whose lives were shattered. policies for the future, their commitment to create a Since 2018, we have launched measures to put right the safer country for us all is commendable. wrongs caused to individual members of the Windrush Since these injustices were brought to light, civil generation. We have taken action through practical servants have used every endeavour to right the wrongs, measures to give those affected the assistance, certainty, giving people their correct status and supporting them reassurance and support they need. The Commonwealth in their financial compensation claims. However, it would citizens taskforce goes into communities to help and be wrong for the Department to ignore Wendy Williams’s support people secure their legal status. More than finding that the Home Office’s 11,700 people have been granted a form of documentation that confirms their right to remain in the UK and “institutional ignorance and thoughtlessness towards the issue of guarantees their access to public services. Our vulnerable race and the history of the Windrush generation” persons team has provided support to nearly 1,400 people, contributed to this. This is not something that can be with approximately 120 people still receiving support. resolved with an apology or compensation. The team has supported more than 360 people to secure I will review the recommendations that Wendy Williams access to benefits. makes in relation to the way the Home Office operates To go some way in addressing the hardship suffered, as an organisation. I will continue to look closely at its the Home Office launched the Windrush compensation leadership, culture, practices and the way it views the scheme. The scheme was designed in close consultation communities it serves. Over the coming months, myself with members of the community and Martin Forde and Matthew Rycroft—the new permanent secretary—and QC. Collectively, they have developed a compensation the second permanent secretary will work together with scheme that is straightforward to use and addresses the our dedicated staff at all levels to reflect on the bespoke personal circumstances and needs of every recommendations, including those relating to compliant applicant, with dedicated caseworkers assessing claims environment policies and cultural change. Fundamentally, as quickly as possible. There is no cap on payments, I want to make the Home Office a better place to work. dozens of which have already been made, and we encourage That will include a clarification of the Department’s more applications. Those who are eligible will receive purpose, mission and values, putting at its heart fairness, full compensation. dignity and respect. We will put people before process. More than 100 community events have taken place so The publication of this review is a small but vital step far. That includes more than 30 compensation scheme towards ensuring that the Home Office is trusted by all events across the country, from Southampton to Glasgow the people it serves. I encourage anyone who thinks that 1157 Windrush Lessons Learned Review19 MARCH 2020 Windrush Lessons Learned Review 1158

[Priti Patel] anybody that persons from other parts of the Commonwealth—Africa, south Asia—also get the they have been affected by the Windrush scandal or fairness and justice that they deserve. Is the Home who requires support or assistance to come forward. I Secretary willing to commit to reviewing data on other will bring forward a detailed formal response in the next Commonwealth cases, as well as those from the Caribbean six months, as Wendy Williams has recommended, nations? representing a new chapter for the Home Office. Let me Is the Home Secretary willing to commit commission assure the House that everyone at the Home Office will officials to undertake a full review and evaluation of the be asking the difficult questions needed to ensure that hostile or compliant environment policy and its measures these circumstances can never arise again. I commend individually and serially? Such a full review should this statement to the House. assess whether they were effective and proportionate. Given the risks inherent in the policy that are set out in 11.37 am the report, the review must be carried out scrupulously, designed in partnership with external experts and published Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) in a timely way. (Lab): We meet as a House of Commons at a time of unprecedented national crisis—a national crisis that Sadly, the Home Secretary did not feel able to share a none of us has seen before in our lifetime—but I am copy of the review with the Opposition Front-Bench sure the Home Secretary will agree that we should not team. I have never before been in the situation in which allow the fact that the review has been published at a a Home Secretary brought forward a major report of time of national crisis to mean that the review and its this kind and did not want to share it with the Opposition recommendations are buried. The Windrush generation Front-Bench team—obviously that would have been deserve better than that. under complete discretion. As it happens, I had to go into the Home Secretary’s office in Parliament to obtain As the Home Secretary will know,the recommendations the copy I have. It is almost as if the Home Secretary in this review have three main elements: that the Home did not want full parliamentary scrutiny. Office must acknowledge the wrong that has been done; that it must open itself up to external scrutiny; and that This is a detailed report that deserves detailed scrutiny. it must change its culture, to recognise that migration It is coming forward at a very difficult time for the and wider Home Office policy is about people, and nation as a whole, but the Opposition will be coming whatever the objective, it should always be rooted in back to the issues raised in the report, because the humanity. Windrush scandal was not just a mistake; it was not just The Home Secretary will be aware that the review something that happened because people did not read points out: the rules properly. As Wendy Williams points out, it was rooted in the systemic culture of the Home Office and “Some ministers and senior officials spoken to in the course of the failure of Ministers to listen to the warnings they this review do not appear to accept the full extent of the injustice done to the Windrush generation”, were given about what the effects of the hostile environment could be on people perfectly legally entitled to be here. and that they say I have heard the Home Secretary’s apology, but people “the situation was unforeseen, unforeseeable and therefore unavoidable.” will believe her apology when they see her genuinely seek to implement the recommendations in this review. More than one Member of this House foresaw the My mother was a member of the Windrush generation, consequences of the hostile environment legislation years so I know that one of the aspects of the Windrush ago. generation was that they really believed they were British. The review goes on to say that other Ministers and They had no reason not to believe that they were British senior officials when they came here with their passports, UK and “have expressed the view that the responsibility really lay with the Colonies. Windrush generation themselves to sort out their status.” Let me assure the Home Secretary that, for the Windrush Will the Home Secretary agree that, whichever politicians generation, it is not necessarily the money, or the loss, or officials said those things—Wendy Williams quotes or the inconvenience, or even the tragedy of being them in the review—they were disgraceful things to say? deported. It is the insult to people who always believed The review has many important and detailed that they were British, and who came here to rebuild recommendations. I cannot touch on them all, but I this country, but who, because of the insensitivity and wish to draw the Home Secretary’s attention to a few. the structural issues in the Home Office, were treated in The review wants the Department to publish a an utterly disgraceful and humiliating way. The Home comprehensive improvement plan within six months. Is Secretary should be assured that we will return to these the Home Secretary willing to assure the House that issues until the Windrush generation gets the justice to there will be such a plan? The review asks that the which it is entitled. Home Office run a programme of reconciliation events with members of the Windrush generation. Does the Priti Patel: First of all, let me say in response to the Home Secretary commit to that? right hon. Lady’s point about the publication of the Very importantly, the review says that the Home review that this is an independent review. I received a Office must look beyond the Caribbean, because persons copy of it yesterday from Wendy Williams and I have, from all over the Commonwealth who came to this country through all the due process in the House, laid the review at that time would have been caught up in the same this morning, in a timely way, in the Vote Office, using issues that the Windrush generation were caught up in. all the procedural routes that are normal to this House. In fact, persons from the Caribbean are as anxious as I know that the right hon. Lady came to my office and 1159 Windrush Lessons Learned Review19 MARCH 2020 Windrush Lessons Learned Review 1160 picked up a copy, but copies were also available earlier that every Department should act on the failings and on this morning—we checked that, and as she knows, I the gaps in public sector provision for certain communities also gave her sight of my statement earlier, prior to that are highlighted by that audit? coming to the Chamber. I made a commitment to publish the report as soon Priti Patel: I thank my right hon. Friend the Member as possible. It came to me yesterday, and I have done for Maidenhead (Mrs May) for her thoughtful comment. that, primarily because of the nature of the response I emphasise and echo the work that she has done, but and the concerns that this House has consistently and acknowledge her apology as well. She is absolutely right rightly raised when it comes to the Windrush generation. about the role of the race disparity audit. There is much That, in my view, was the right thing to do, and I would that we can all take from this review. We should all as not have been able to publish the review any earlier, individuals be more conscious and aware not just of because obviously it came to me from Wendy Williams how we engage people, but of how we reach an yesterday. The timing of the report was decided by understanding of communities and cultures, to help us Wendy Williams, as the independent reviewer. Let me all and to inform decision making and policies across assure the right hon. Lady that I discussed with Wendy Government in the future. Williams yesterday how I will work with her on the recommendations going forward. I will be doing that Kenny MacAskill (East Lothian) (SNP): This is a over the coming months, in the way in which Wendy has welcome statement and a welcome start, but it is only a asked and alluded to in the report. I will ensure that this start. The old maxim applies: legislate in haste, repent at issue continues to get the national prominence that it leisure. The tragedy is that the price paid by some is rightly deserves. significant and the actions of Government have been I also think, on that point, that this is the time for us shameful, so an apology is both right and overdue. I all across this House to come together to right the recall as Justice Secretary of Scotland meeting a gentleman wrongs. I have made it clear in my statement already in his late 40s or 50s who, as a babe in arms, had left that not only will I review Wendy’s recommendations Scotland and gone to Australia. All his family and on how the Home Office operates as an organisation, friends were in Australia. He had fallen from grace, looking closely at, yes, the leadership, the culture, the developed an alcohol problem, committed a crime and practices and how it needs to put people before process—I been deported. I said then that the actions of the cannot emphasise that enough—but I will also look at Government of Australia were shameful, and I repeat how we review policies and cultural change going forward. now that I believe the behaviour and actions of the UK That is absolutely the right thing to do, but I emphasise Government are equally shameful when they replicate that, in many of the measures and recommendations, that. That gentleman was Australian, despite the passport and in the extent of the review—I have no doubt that he carried. when the right hon. Lady has the opportunity she will Will the Home Secretary ensure that those members go through the review and read it, as I have—Wendy of the Windrush generation who have been deported Williams is very clear that lessons must be learned at all and who possess a different passport from the one that levels, by all political parties. She describes the set of we in this Chamber have, but who are UK citizens the measures that evolved under Labour, coalition and same as we are, are allowed to return? Will she also Conservative Governments, and is clear those are lessons ensure that offenders from abroad who must be deported that we should all be learning, as politicians and as are rightly sent home, but that who possess a passport society, but also as Members of this House. from Jamaica, Nigeria or wherever else, who have grown up in this country and are UK citizens, should be Mrs Theresa May (Maidenhead) (Con): May I first entitled to those rights? associate myself with the unqualified apology that the Equally,although I believe the commitment to implement Home Secretary has given to the Windrush generation? the recommendations is wholehearted and sincere, it is I have given my own apology previously, but I do so more than just a matter of living up to the again today.This generation came here, they were British, recommendations; it must reflect the spirit of Wendy they were here legally, they worked to build our country Williams’ report. I ask that the Government take on and they should not have been treated in this way. I board those two points. recognise the commitment that my right hon. Friend has given to ensuring that the Home Office learns the Priti Patel: I would like to make a number of points lessons set out in the review. in response to the hon. Gentleman’s comments. First, May I draw my right hon. Friend’s attention to one of he has already spoken to me about reviewing the the elements that she referred to in her statement? recommendations, but I opened my statement by saying Wendy Williams says in her review that that I was deeply moved by reading the report, and I “a lack of insight into the community’s experience did delay an suggest that he too gives it some consideration and understanding of the problems being faced by the Windrush looks at the many recommendations made. In particular, generation and led to opportunities being missed for resolving I referenced the fact that we still have work to do in cases sooner.” reaching members of the community, and I called for The Home Secretary referred to the fact that too many other individuals who feel that they have been affected people still feel that they may be treated differently to come forward, so that we can secure their status and because of who they are or where their parents came provide the compensation that may be due to them. from. Against that background, does she agree that the There is something more fundamental, though. No work of the race disparity audit, which I set up when I amount of compensation or any process now can resolve was Prime Minister, is absolutely critical in relation to the injustices that have happened. My focus right now is this, and not just that that work should continue, but fundamentally not only to ensure that the recommendations 1161 Windrush Lessons Learned Review19 MARCH 2020 Windrush Lessons Learned Review 1162

[Priti Patel] Priti Patel: I would urge the right hon. Gentleman to work with us all, collectively, to right these wrongs. are reviewed and undertaken, but to work with colleagues I have been clear in my statement today, not just in and Wendy Williams to ensure that we do this in the giving an unequivocal apology, but in highlighting, right way to bring about the change that we all want as Wendy Williams has in an incredibly moving and to see. thoughtful way, many of the issues that have led to the 30 recommendations she has made in this review. I will Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I commend my come back to the House and give all the recommendations right hon. Friend for her statement and for the apology full consideration. she has given. The reality is that the Windrush generation, The right hon. Gentleman has heard me say, and I when they arrived here, were met with racism and have made this commitment to Wendy Williams, that outright hostility. That they have been treated so badly I will work with her on reviewing the recommendations. after so many years of service to this country is an That is the right thing to do. It is the right way to absolute disgrace and a stain on our society. Will my prevent something such as this from ever happening right hon. Friend say a little more about what she can again. do to reach out to people who have been deported, or The right hon. Gentleman also asked me about the who are outside this country and wish to return but are culture within the Home Office. I have been clear that I not covered at the moment by what the Home Office is am going to review all aspects of the Home Office. I will doing, so that they too can receive justice in the right way? continue to look at the leadership, and at the changes we need to make to the culture and to policies; I have Priti Patel: My hon. Friend is absolutely right in his been clear about that in my statement. I will absolutely reflective remarks about the citizens who came to our come back to the House, once I have worked with country legally, in effect to rebuild our nation and join Wendy Williams, and share the details of how we our public services. For many decades, that generation will proceed as a Department in picking up the experienced great hostility and overt racism in our country. recommendations in this lessons learned review. As much as our country has moved forward, made progress and changed, as I said, there much that we Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con): My right hon. Friend need to do and we must all look at ourselves. He is also has disclosed that the first time she received this was right to highlight people of other nationalities—citizens report was yesterday and that she published it at the of Commonwealth countries in particular. The shadow earliest possible opportunity today. Will she also disclose Home Secretary also referred to Commonwealth citizens when officials at the Home Office first had sight of this who were caught up in this. I know the report speaks report? very much about the Windrush generation—people who originated in Caribbean communities—but many other people from Commonwealth countries have been affected. Priti Patel: My hon. Friend is right to say that I As part of our work in the Home Office, we will of received the report yesterday and, such is its importance, course endeavour to reach out through our engagement I published it today. Last July, Wendy Williams began programmes to individuals from Commonwealth the representations in the Maxwellisation process; those countries too. officials who have been involved and engaged in this process did not have sight of the actual review or report, because obviously it has taken time for that to Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): Wendy Williams’ come together, but there has been ongoing work and Windrush lessons learned review is a brutal indictment dialogue with key officials, former Ministers and many of the Home Office, which shows that it is wholly unfit other interviewees Wendy has worked with for the for the society it is supposed to serve. The review states publication of this review. That has taken place over a that the Home Office displayed “institutional ignorance long period of time. and thoughtlessness” on race issues that is “consistent with some elements of the definition of institutional racism.” Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab): This report is deeply disturbing, but it also tells The review accuses the Home Office of having a “defensive us many of the things we have been raising concerns culture” that makes it deaf to those raising genuine about since the Windrush crisis emerged. The result of concerns. Will the Home Secretary accept today, in this it is that British citizens have been deported, been House, that, as was said previously, this was not a denied NHS treatment, been cost their jobs and been mistake or an accident, but a systemic pattern of appalling made homeless by the actions of the British Government, behaviour, rooted in a toxic internal culture and a who act in all of our names. So all of us should be failure of the Department to understand Britain’s colonial deeply ashamed by what has happened to the Windrush history? generation and determined that this should never happen Will the Home Secretary commit at the Dispatch Box again; the conclusions on racism are particularly damning. to implement every single recommendation in this review? The Home Secretary will know that consecutive Home Will she review the £62,000 that has been paid out to Affairs Committee reports, and reports from previous those who should be compensated by far more? Will she Committees as well, have often raised many of the ensure, at the Dispatch Box today, that she will end the concerns embedded in this report: concerns about the hostile environment, which amplified things and has hostile environment; about the casework culture— brought this about? The report asks for contrition and the culture of disbelief; about the net migration target; genuine understanding. We will hold her to account and and about a series of problems within the Home Office, to her word that that contrition is genuine, so that we but they have not had an impact. Some of the most right these shameful wrongs. damning conclusions in Wendy Williams’ report are 1163 Windrush Lessons Learned Review19 MARCH 2020 Windrush Lessons Learned Review 1164 that this was foreseeable and avoidable and that, since that have taken place across the country.I have mentioned the Windrush crisis broke, the action that has been the stakeholder group in particular, which is something taken has been dealing only with the symptoms and not that I set up. I have spent a lot of time with volunteers the causes. Will she therefore urgently agree to accept and community activists, and their work has been all the recommendations about scrutiny and openness remarkable and should be commended. There is much in the Home Office, so that she can prove to Parliament more that we need to do on that basis, and that equally that she is, in fact, going to make the fundamental applies to members of other Commonwealth countries. changes that are needed? This report is very clear about that, and I am very clear about that as well. I said in my statement that we have Priti Patel: The right hon. Lady is right in her not done enough yet to reach out to everyone, and that identification of the issues that existed over a period of there is a lot of work to do in reaching out to other time—Wendy Williams was also very clear about them individuals and communities. I have asked other colleagues in her review. Over several decades, and under successive and Members of this House to work with us and their Governments, those policies were part of the culture communities so that we can ensure that we reach the and the environment of the Home Office. I am clear people who need help and support. That goes exactly to that I will review all the recommendations, and I will the point about recourse to public funds. I spoke about work with Wendy. There may be recommendations that assistance with benefit claims and things of that nature. I can proceed with sooner rather than later, and I am Again, we need to identify those individuals, and there absolutely committed to doing that, because there are is more we can do collectively. structural and cultural issues at the heart of this. They The hon. Lady touched on the current crisis with are so self-evident in this report that no one can sit back covid-19 and how we will continue to do these things. and digest them lightly, or close their eyes and ears to That is a fair challenge to us all, because we will not be many of the challenges and to some of the deeply able to hold events in the way we had planned to. Much moving points that have been made. I will come back to more work will now take place through media campaigns the House on this, but I will work absolutely vigorously and our casework approach, but also through one-on-one with Wendy to look at every single recommendation communications.I would like the individuals she mentioned and consider which ones we can proceed with at pace in her constituency, and other individuals who are and very soon. working at the grassroots, to get in touch with me and my office. We will absolutely work with them to create a Several hon. Members rose— network locally. Mr Speaker: I aim to run this to about 12.15 pm. Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): I was pleased to hear my right hon. Friend announce a fund for Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): As someone who organisations to promote the various Windrush schemes. has served in the military with soldiers from the Windrush Will she confirm that the money will be directed to generation, may I say that we never once thought of grassroots organisations? Will she also share the contact them as anything other than British? We looked in their details for the various schemes with MPs so that we can eyes, and the eyes that looked back were British to the direct our constituents appropriately? bone. Priti Patel: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I have Priti Patel: I thank my hon. Friend for his comment. announced today that we will open a £500,000 fund for This review gives voice to people from the Windrush grassroots organisations. All Members’ constituents, generation, who, of course, not only came to the UK and organisations locally, can benefit from that outreach. legally, but were part of our country. They contributed I will publish details shortly of how we can work to our country, our economy and our public services in together—the House needs to come together—and make an unprecedented way. sure we can reach out to these individuals and communities. I will make those details available to everyone. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Co-op): The Home Secretary has said, “We will continue Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): The Home to do everything possible to ensure that the Home Secretary is aware of the serious dent in trust in her Office protects, supports and listens to every single part Department and the Government that these events have of the community it serves.” I commend the work of created in the community, which explains in part why the Councillor Carole Williams in Hackney, who is doing take-up of compensation so far is so low. One absolute amazing work, pulling together the community and running sore is deportations, particularly of people who setting a better model than the Home Office’s for how have spent virtually their whole lives in this country—who that engagement could work. have been brought up, educated and had their values I also want to ask the Home Secretary about the and ethical views inculcated in them here—and who other 160,000 Commonwealth citizens in this situation, have served sentences for criminal convictions in this which is something that the Public Accounts Committee country, but then found that a further penalty is imposed raised. While she is on her feet, will she also tell us what on them, which causes huge resentment. In her review she is doing about people with no recourse to public of policies, could the Home Secretary look again at the funds who are part of the community she serves, who policy and the practice of deportations? I fear that, will be facing very difficult circumstances if they are until this issues is addressed, the community will continue unable to work because of covid-19? to feel very deep suspicion of her Department’s motives.

Priti Patel: The hon. Lady raises a number of points. Priti Patel: The hon. Lady touches on a fundamental First, I thank everyone who is involved, and has been issue, which is that breach of trust. I know from the involved, in many of the outreach groups and the events time I have spent with individuals from the Windrush 1165 Windrush Lessons Learned Review19 MARCH 2020 Windrush Lessons Learned Review 1166

[Priti Patel] thank colleagues who have done that—not just recognising those individuals but working with the Home Office to generation and with advisory groups, and from speaking ensure that those who are eligible receive the full to groups and individuals, that it is fundamental, and it compensation. is a fact that that breach of trust will take a considerable time to repair. In doing that, there are a number of Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): This things that we will have to address. That includes, of report and the Windrush scandal itself demonstrate course, our engagement and our approach, but also how, under the hostile environment, people who have giving an absolute assurance that we are there to serve every right to live in the UK are far too often wrongly people and to support them in correcting their status denied access to housing and other services, including and making their financial compensation claims. That the NHS. Now more than ever, ensuring access to is, effectively, what we are doing. healthcare for those who need it is crucial. In particular, On top of that, I can give an assurance, as I said, that it is vital that no one who needs to be tested or to seek as part of the review and the recommendations I will be treatment in relation to covid-19 is put off by uncertainty considering, I will review the way in which the Home over their immigration status or fears that they will find Office operates—yes, the leadership and culture, but themselves detained or reported as a result. Will the also many of the policies. I have touched on cultural Home Secretary therefore guarantee that there will be change, but there is also the compliant environment no sharing of personal information from the NHS to policy. the Home Office for immigration purposes?

Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): Has the Home Secretary Priti Patel: I have already made it clear that the ever experienced institutional racism at the Home Office? lessons from this review must be learned at every level. The hon. Lady raises a very important point about Priti Patel: Racism is not an issue that we should take covid-19, access to public services and public health. As lightly at all. As I said in my statement—other Members far as I am concerned, that is not an issue we will need of the House can reflect on this—many people, including to deal with. When it comes to the Windrush generation— people of my own background, leave the house every the individuals we have been speaking about who were single morning knowing that they could be treated involved in this review—they will be able to access differently because of who they are or where their public services and public funds in the way I have parents came from. We have to do much more as a spoken about. society on how we treat people, but also to understand the causes and deal with issues of racism at every single Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): level. The Windrush generation were British. They should not have been caught up in our immigration system, but Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): I welcome the they were. The Home Secretary’s apology and use of the Home Secretary’s statement and the report. This is past tense remain unconvincing while the hostile quite clearly the most dreadful scandal and, as she environment they experienced is still in place. The all-party rightly said, a breach of trust. Will she now reassure the parliamentary group for Africa, which I chair, reported House that she will do everything in her power to try to on the disgraceful treatment of African visa applicants. mend that breach of trust, and that she will treat the As a constituency MP, I see every day, delay, neglect, Windrush generation with the respect they deserve? discrimination and stereotyping in Home Office processes. Will the Secretary of State say today that our immigration Priti Patel: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the tone system must be not only fair and fast but welcoming, of his question and for the points he makes. I urge all and that that is the standard to which she will hold right hon. and hon. colleagues to look at the review. It is herself? deeply moving and powerful. In many ways, it gives a voice to people who felt that their voice was taken away Priti Patel: First, Wendy Williams describes in the from them. My focus is to do right in terms of the review a set of measures that evolved under a number of wrongs that were undertaken and, more than just Governments over many decades. Clearly, we all need to apologising to the individuals and communities affected, move on and look at—[Interruption.] If the hon. Lady to review the recommendations and ensure that my had waited patiently for me to finish my sentence, I Department puts people before process. would have said that we need to look at the review and recommendations. I have been very clear about the Nickie Aiken (Cities of London and Westminster) work I will undertake in the Home Office in terms of (Con): It is clear that my right hon. Friend is appalled reviewing policies, but also on policies that relate to the by what she has read in the report. She has spoken with compliant environment and cultural change. In my time compassion, and I believe fully that she will ensure the as Home Secretary, I have been consistent about having Home Office changes. If there is one person who can do a firm, yes, but fair immigration policy to ensure that it, it is my right hon. Friend. However, can she give me we are welcoming to people who can come here and an assurance that there will be no cap on the compensation contribute to the United Kingdom. That is exactly the awarded under the Windrush scheme? signal that our country should be sending to everyone across the world. Priti Patel: My hon. Friend is right to point to the scheme itself. I have spoken about the scheme and the Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): Is way it works. There is no cap at all. I repeat my plea to the Home Secretary now beginning to understand how all colleagues in the House to work with us to bring fundamental and profound the breach of trust in the forward cases of claimants in their constituencies. I Home Office is that stems from the Windrush scandal? 1167 Windrush Lessons Learned Review19 MARCH 2020 Windrush Lessons Learned Review 1168

In my constituency, there are Windrush citizens who are been caught up in this and some of the policies and fearful of coming forward to claim compensation because processes of the past. It is quite clear that there is a of that breach of trust, and many more who live in daily great deal more work to do. fear of the possibility that their lives might also be The hon. Lady asked about deportations, and in ruined by the Home Office. Specifically, they live in fear reference to the flight that departed several weeks ago I of ending up on a charter flight. As recently as last can give her an assurance that there was no one from month, the Home Office was having to remove passengers the Windrush generation on that flight. Not only that, from a charter flight because it had not followed due but that deportation took place under the UK Borders process. Will she commit to pause charter flights and Act 2007, which was introduced by this House of Commons suspend them until the lessons learned review has been under a previous Labour Government. implemented in full? Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): The Will the Home Secretary also join me in paying Home Secretary has already acknowledged that the tribute to the Black Cultural Archives on Windrush Home Office has not investigated the impact on those Square in my constituency? It has played an exceptional from Commonwealth countries outside the Caribbean role in stepping forward to provide support for Windrush and has excluded from consideration those with a criminal citizens, when grassroots funding was being called for, record who were wrongly deported. Can she confirm but was not provided by the Government? Will she that the research will now be extended, as Wendy Williams confirm that the BCA will now be funded to do its vital recommends, and will she ensure that sufficient resources work of helping to enable Windrush citizens to come are made available so that the work is carried out as forward to claim the compensation for which they are soon as possible? eligible? Priti Patel: I will be looking in detail at every recommendation that Wendy Williams has put forward, Priti Patel: I have been very clear in my statement and I will be working with her on the delivery of many today about not just the lessons learned review, but the of them. changes that need to come forward. That is not an Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): Six years ago, over overnight revelation. I have been working on this in the 30,000 overseas students from Commonwealth countries Home Office. The hon. Member will have heard in my lost their visas when they were accused by the American statement about the work I have undertaken with members firm ETS of cheating in its TOEIC—test of English for of the Windrush generation, the advisory group and the international communication—English language test. compensation group to understand many of the issues, It has since become clear that many of those accusations, the challenges and the injustices—I have heard about in fact almost certainly most of them, were without those experiences at first hand, as no doubt she has—and foundation. In learning the lessons of Windrush, will to understand how we can address them directly. the Home Secretary ensure that students who are innocent get an affordable route to finally clear their names? The hon. Lady has also heard me say today, and I can confirm again, that we are announcing a £500,000 Priti Patel: The right hon. Member has raised this grassroots fund to help support, and to help with the point with me previously, and I thank him for raising it dissemination of information that will support, members again today. I will look into it. He has asked me to do of the Windrush generation and others who may have so, and I will absolutely take that away. 1169 19 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 1170

Business of the House they too can be supported with childcare and other benefits? Will he confirm that no one will have to use their holiday entitlement when they are self-isolating or 12.18 pm when they are sick? Hopefully they will get sick pay, but The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob there is an issue that they may be using up their holiday Rees-Mogg): The business for the week commencing entitlement. 23 March will include: We were in a good position to learn from other MONDAY 23 MARCH—Consideration of a business of countries. After all, China built hospitals in two weeks. the House motion, followed by all stages of the Coronavirus Vò in Italy has tested a lot—and we know that Bill. asymptomatic people, of which there may be many TUESDAY 24 MARCH—Committee and remaining stages here, can still transmit it—and it is now virus free. I am of the Windrush Compensation Scheme (Expenditure) pleased that the Leader of the House has taken on Bill, followed by a motion relating to appointments to board the suggestion that I made last week, and that the the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body, followed by a Government and the BBC have looked to ensure that general debate on the situation in Yemen—the subject the over-75s do not have to pay for their television for this debate was determined by the Backbench Business licence fees. I note that that is only until August, but all Committee—followed by, if necessary, consideration of the other packages that have been mentioned will take Lords amendments. place over 12 months. WEDNESDAY 25 MARCH—If necessary, consideration The Education Secretary yesterday said he wanted to of Lords amendments, followed by Opposition day— work with the BBC to ensure that our children can learn 7th allotted day. There will be a debate on a motion in while they are at home, and also to provide exercise for the name of the Leader of the official Opposition, followed seniors while we are all self-isolating. It is not right that by, if necessary, consideration of Lords amendments. the BBC should have to foot the bill, and it needs to be compensated for any loss of income. I want to ask the THURSDAY 26 MARCH—If necessary, consideration of Lords amendments, followed by a debate on a motion Leader of the House if he can, as much as possible, on errors in payments made to victims of the Equitable confirm that we will be back on 21 April. We know the Life scandal, followed by a debate on a motion on Environment Bill is in Committee: can he make a statement human rights in Kashmir—the subjects for these debates on the timetable for Bills and the Brexit negotiations? were determined by the Backbench Business Committee— If we have to self-isolate, we will all be indulging in followed by, if necessary, consideration of Lords the creative industries— music, television and films. I amendments. know that the Leader of the House knows that most of FRIDAY 27 MARCH—Private Members’ Bills. those involved are self-employed now. Many of them have had concerts cancelled, and we need to have a The provisional business for the week commencing proper package for them so that they do not lose out. 30 March will include: There is some confusion, because insurers are cancelling MONDAY 30MARCH—Considerationof Lordsamendments, events and citing force majeure. We know that the if necessary,followedbySecondReadingof theNon-Domestic Department of Health has said that coronavirus is a Rating (Public Lavatories) Bill, followed by, if necessary, notifiable disease, so could he please clarify that? consideration of Lords amendments. I have a constituent who had a stroke, and she has TUESDAY 31 MARCH—Matters to be raised before the been asked for a sick note by her human resources forthcoming Adjournment. The subject for this debate department, but the GP is not giving her one. Could the was determined by the Backbench Business Committee. Leader of the House clarify whether sick notes are needed? 12.30 pm I appreciate that the emergency legislation will be Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): I thank the Leader published later today—perhaps it has already been of the House for consulting Opposition parties last published—and it includes a sunset clause of two years. week on Westminster Hall debates, the result of which I would urge caution, because this is, after all, the he has announced. We are in unprecedented times, and Government that were found to have acted unlawfully I appreciate that things are moving fast. I hope he will over Prorogation. It is important that there is a shorter continue to consult. sunset clause and that the Leader of the House confirms that Parliament will return on 21 April. I thank you, Mr Speaker, for the statement you made yesterday, when the Chancellor gave his statement to May I make a helpful suggestion? There are lots of the press first rather than to Parliament. Parliament issues coming out of each Department. Could a statement must be told first: we are not irrelevant. I note that the be made, and published on gov.uk, on each Department Chancellor apologised and gave you an assurance, but and its package, and could there be dedicated helplines, he did not actually say that he would not do it again. I so that we do not have to trouble, say, a Health Minister ask the Leader of the House to ensure that, when press with questions about employment rights? conferences are held, all the information is given. What I know that the Government do not want to appear is happening is that journalists are being briefed afterwards on “Today”, but the former Prime Minister Gordon and important information is then highlighted under Brown had some very important words to say on it this breaking news, rather than at the press conference. morning, and they should be heeded. Will the Government I thank all the staff—we now have a skeleton staff—and ensure that experts from other fields are heard? After those who have made arrangements so that they can all, when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister, he and service Parliament. Could I ask the Leader of the Alistair Darling went through the economic emergency House if the parliamentary staff are key workers, so caused by the banking crisis, and also had to deal with 1171 Business of the House19 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 1172 flooding. What Gordon Brown said was very important: arrangements. I thank the Opposition for not calling we are here to protect not our institutions, but our Divisions this week; that has been helpful in the people. Please could we ensure that that happens? circumstances. We need to work together closely to It is excellent news that Nazanin has been freed. I ensure that the mechanisms that we use are effective, thank the Leader of the House for all his efforts on that to ensure that we hold the Government to account, and front, and those who made diplomatic efforts. Nazanin to legislate properly. We will have to look at this matter; is out for two weeks, albeit with a tag that her family has I do not think it is right to make an immediate decision had to pay for. Some 85,000 prisoners have been released from the Dispatch Box. Let us see what the situation is in Iran, but neither Anoosheh nor Kylie, both dual when we come back on 21 April. There will have to be nationals, are among them. Could I again ask the cross-party agreement; that is of fundamental importance Leader of the House to raise their case? They need to be to how the House works. back home, where we can help them if they have With regard to sick notes—I am grateful to the right coronavirus, which we know is widespread in Iran. hon. Lady for mentioning this to me in advance—as I One of the good things to have come out of the understand it, they can now be obtained by going current situation is the fabulous community groups that online with 111, so people will not need to get them have been set up to help people. Post Office workers and from their doctors, though I reiterate the Government’s members of the Communication Workers Union are encouragement to businesses to be flexible about it. going to every house, helping with deliveries. Firefighters British businesses in many ways are leading the way. in Manchester are going to ring elderly people often. One hears all sorts of pieces of good news. For example, Let us keep our spirits up. Tomorrow is the first day of BP is offering free fuel to emergency service vehicles spring! and things like that. Business is being community-spirited, and I encourage the business in the specific case she Mr Rees-Mogg: The right hon. Lady is right to keep mentions, and in other similar cases, to behave in that our spirits up, and to remind us that tomorrow is the way. first day of spring. I hope that will put a suitable spring The right hon. Lady makes very good points about in our step. I am very grateful for the support given to the centralisation of information. It is important that the Government in these difficult times by the Opposition; we have a reasonable balance rather than constantly the right hon. Lady; the Leader of the Opposition; the bombarding Ministers to get information that is shadow Health Secretary, who has been working very straightforwardly available already.The more information closely with the Government; and of course to the is collated, the better that will be. That was an extremely Opposition Chief Whip, who is invariably a means of valid point, as was the point about the expertise of ensuring that mechanisms in this place work. others. I also heard the interview with Gordon Brown, who had many interesting things to say, and I can I also record my thanks to parliamentary counsel for assure the House that the Government are taking the phenomenal work that they have done in bringing suggestions from a wide range of sources. As one can forward the emergency legislation that will be presented imagine, ideas are pouring in to the Government, and later today. They have been working all weekend and that is welcome. late into the night on drafting the Bill. I note the point made about the sunset clause; it will have been noted. On the over-75s, Lord Hall was on the radio this We want to maintain co-operation with all parties across morning saying that the issue was under review. It is not the House, and I am sure that there will be discussions therefore an August deadline and that is it—it is a over the weekend on that point, but it is not for me to decision that has been made until then. The BBC will make commitments. I am genuinely grateful for the consider it further, although I think we are going to support. have the opportunity of watching lots of repeats if we are staying at home.There are some wonderful programmes On statements to this House, the Chancellor did indeed that were made not so many years ago, so that will not apologise for not making his statement here first. He be too much of a burden, I would have thought. was bringing forward financially sensitive information; those kinds of statement can be more difficult than I share the right hon. Lady’s pleasure about Nazanin others. I am glad to say that the Education Secretary Zaghari-Ratcliffe. It is really very good news that she made his statement here first, before holding a press has been released. To update the House, the Foreign conference. It is not an easy issue, because we need to Secretary spoke to the Foreign Minister Mr Zarif on inform the country at large, but maintain parliamentary 16 March about all the dual national cases, so the accountability at the same time. Obviously, we will Government are continuing to push on that. One piece work closely with you, Mr Speaker, to ensure that of good news is welcome; let us hope there is more good Parliament is kept properly informed, and that we do news to come. not find things out purely from news reports, but it is Sir David Amess (Southend West) (Con): Will my important to get information out to the country at large right hon. Friend find time for a debate on the treatment as well. of UK nationals held in prisons overseas? Last month I With regard to our return on 21 April, it is very went with my constituent Mr Sandhu to see his son held important that Parliament continues to sit. The position in prison in Prague for alleged offences of fraud. The of Her Majesty’s Government is that Parliament will family very much want the Government to intercede to continue to sit. It is a point of significance. We need to see if their son can be released on bail. be held to account, and to legislate. As for Bills in Committee, we will be able to ensure that those Committees Mr Rees-Mogg: I welcome my hon Friend back to continue as long as the House is sitting, but we may business questions. We have missed him, and I am glad need discussions on precisely how the House operates. that he is not forced stay at home and is therefore able The shadow Leader of the House asks about voting to raise that point. Consular staff are providing assistance 1173 Business of the House19 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 1174

[Mr Rees-Mogg] Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the tone and the interest of his proposals. Everybody to Mr Sandhu’s son, and the Foreign and Commonwealth is open to ideas as to how things might be done differently Office has set out how it can help in its publications and what the needs are on attendance. Mr Speaker available on gov.uk, called “Support for British nationals received a letter from the Chair of the Procedure Committee, abroad: a guide”and “Arrested abroad”. We can consider my right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire intervening with the local authorities if a detainee is not Moorlands (Karen Bradley), that sets out options for treated in line with internationally accepted standards how Select Committees may be able to carry on with or with consent, to raise concerns about mistreatment. their important business without meeting in person. However, as my hon. Friend will understand, the Foreign Parliament will consider what steps can reasonably be and Commonwealth Office cannot interfere in the judicial taken to allow things to be done remotely. It may be and legal processes of another country. We can make difficult to recreate the Chamber remotely, but there are representations, but we cannot force. My hon. Friend is certainly options with Select Committees and they are right to raise the issue. being considered. The Government share the hon. Gentleman’s concern Tommy Sheppard (Edinburgh East) (SNP): Last night about people profiteering from the crisis and are aware I was due to speak at an event for which more than that some people are behaving extremely well and others 300 people had registered but, because of the crisis, the are using this as an opportunity. One has heard stories organisers took the event online and all those people of people charging exorbitant prices for hand sanitiser, were able to participate from the convenience and safety loo roll and so on, so the Government are aware of the of their own homes. What surprised me was that the issue and will act if necessary. As yet, it does not seem hardware I required to do that was none other than the to be so widespread a problem as to require Government standard issue iPad I was given five years ago by this action, but we are not ignoring the point. Parliament. I say that because it convinces me that the On universal basic income, the Government are willing technology is available for us to continue to have informed to consider all ideas. Lots of ideas are coming in. The democratic debate without the necessity of having to priority is to proceed with things that can be implemented meet in this Chamber. rapidly and for which systems already exist. It may Is the Leader of the House considering such procedures? prove difficult to introduce entirely new systems, but I Alongside things such as changing our Standing Orders am sure that the Prime Minister, having said that he is to reduce the attendance required to make legislation, open to meetings on this matter, will prove open to there are also mechanisms whereby people can represent meetings on this matter. their constituents and press the case that they want to As regards the week after next, the House voted for on behalf of the people who elected them without the the recess dates, but it can obviously vote for new recess necessity to actually attend the Parliament, and I think dates. We want to maintain flexibility, because I cannot we need to do a lot more on that. make an absolute guarantee that all the emergency With regard to the emergency legislation, which we legislation that could possibly have been thought of is shall see shortly, I wanted to ask a specific point as to in the Bill coming before the House today. There may be whether that will give the Government the scope to take other things that we need to legislate on, and there is action against some people who are engaged in quite also a demand for scrutiny, so we have to get the disreputable behaviour at this point in time. While the balance right. Nothing will be done without consulting public response to this crisis has brought out the best in the Opposition parties—I emphasise the plural. people, there are some instances where it has brought out the worst as well. Many people will be shocked Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): by the fact that there are private medical companies The Opposition have a serious point in terms of the profiteering by charging exorbitant fees for testing at duration of the debate on the emergency legislation, this point in time. I believe such people should be given that it appears that we will debate it only for one detained and their assets should be commandeered and day.There is a qualitative difference between a single-day put to the public good. I wonder whether the emergency debate on major legislation and even a two-day debate. legislation will give the Government the powers to act in I know that the upper House has different constitutional that way. arrangements, but can the Leader of the House tell us With regard to the debate about a universal basic income how much time he expects it to spend considering the or a minimum income guarantee, which many people legislation, before it sends it back to us? feel is essential to avoid perhaps millions of people approaching the Department for Work and Pensions Mr Rees-Mogg: I note my right hon. Friend’s point, for benefit claims, the Prime Minister gave a guarantee of which the Government are aware. The Bill needs to yesterday that he would meet with others and bring progress with support in this House. Emergency legislation forward proposals on that. When might we expect a is best done and tends to go through successfully only statement to the House from the Prime Minister on when there is widespread consensus, so his point is that, and when will such a meeting take place? important. Unfortunately, I cannot say what proceedings Finally, it seems rather surreal and fanciful to be will be in the other place, and I do not think it would be planning to meet not just next week in full, but the week right for me to try; it would be slightly impertinent of after. Should we not now be taking steps to wind down me to say what their lordships will do. our formal processes and go to the Easter recess at the end of next week? Would that not be the sensible course Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): There of action and indicate leadership to everyone else in is a lot of rivalry in the rugby league, especially in Hull, the country? where we are blessed to have two super league teams: 1175 Business of the House19 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 1176

Hull FC and Hull Kingston Rovers. It is clear that a position to announce to the House what the arrangements rugby league clubs need a special scheme of support. I for Select Committees will be? If these emergency powers spoke with both clubs’ chairmen yesterday evening, and are to be exercised, Select Committees can sit when the they are very worried about the survival of their clubs House is not sitting and provide some democratic oversight as a result of covid-19. Can we have a statement from a of how these powers are being exercised. Minister on what plans there are to financially support rugby league clubs at this incredibly worrying time, so Mr Rees-Mogg: Perhaps it is helpful to explain how that they can survive to not next week, next month or we came to agreement on Westminster Hall being next year, but for the next 125 years? suspended, to give an example of how we are intending to work. There was a letter from the Clerk of the House Mr Rees-Mogg: A lot of businesses and sporting to Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker consulted me. I consulted organisations are worried. I reiterate what the Chancellor the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) has said: everything that can be done will be done to and representatives of the Scottish National party. We ensure the stability of the economy through this period and consulted the Chairmen of the most relevant Select that businesses that are well founded are able to continue. Committees, and then we came forward with a motion. It is very important that what we do for Select Committees Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Tomorrow, similarly has cross-party support and consensus across thousands of businesses across the country that provide this House. I think that if the Leader of the House, childcare and nursery services have been asked to shut representing the Government, were to come forward their doors for an indefinite period. Can we have a with proposals for how Select Committees should operate, debate on what we can do to help the childcare sector people might think that that was designed not to enhance through this very difficult period, to ensure that we have but to reduce scrutiny. It is of the utmost importance successful, thriving and high-quality nursery provision that this is done with consensus, and therefore it will for the years ahead? take a little time—a few days—to discuss these matters, but proposals will be brought forward. Mr Rees-Mogg: There are inevitably concerns following Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab): In the last hour the announcement yesterday of the closures that will I have received urgent communication from the leading take place. The Government are working with providers funeral operators in the UK, who tell me that there is a of all levels of education to ensure that they are aware reluctance by the Cabinet Office to include funeral care of the situation and are helped to cope through it, and workers on the list of essential employees.It is inconceivable I understand that further announcements will be that this industry will be short-staffed at this time. Will made today. the Leader of the House please urgently communicate with his Cabinet colleagues to ensure that those in the Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Will funeral industry are on the list of essential workers? the Leader of the House take this opportunity to thank everyone working on our transport networks—on our Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady always makes the buses and trains, driving delivery vehicles and so on? most important points in this House, and I always find Does he recognise that there are real concerns about the myself in agreement with her. It is no different on this impact of the reduction in passenger flights, not only occasion; I will take her point up with colleagues on travel businesses and aviation workers but on the immediately after this session. movement of essential goods which are usually carried in the hold of passenger planes? When can we expect a Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): Many colleagues statement from the Secretary of State for Transport, so have constituents abroad, many of whom are desperate that we can raise this and many other concerns? to get back home. When can we have a debate on price gouging and bring forward—perhaps in the emergency Mr Rees-Mogg: Of course, I am willing to thank legislation—price gouging measures? Most airlines are everybody in the transport sector who is working so trying to do their bit to help, but there are some hard. It is interesting to note, in terms of how society examples of egregious price gouging preventing people has developed, that delivery drivers for supermarkets from coming home. I think that British people might are unquestionably key workers. They are playing an find it very difficult to swallow if the airlines wanted us incredibly important role, particularly for those who to bail them out while at the same time they were hiking need to stay at home and, from next week, for those up prices for people who need to come back home. with particular medical conditions who will be encouraged Mr Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend raises a sensible to be shielded. The work they are doing is making it point. The Foreign Office is working closely with the possible for people to carry on with their lives as far as airlines to ensure that people can be brought back possible, so it is very important work. With regard to home, and the Department for Transport is working the flow of trade in the bellies of aeroplanes, that is an closely with them as well. I would make a general point important point. I think there is such demand for that goes back to what was said by the hon. Member for ministerial statements that many of them will need to Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard), which is that businesses be written rather than oral statements. are, in some cases, behaving very well. Businesses will want to maintain the support of the community in what Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): they do, so, regardless of Government intervention, I thank my right hon. Friend for his response to the they would be well advised to maintain the good will of hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Tommy Sheppard) the British people. on how this House should operate. I want to connect two issues: the scrutiny of emergency powers and the Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): I want to need for public confidence in their exercise, and the role follow up on the point about Select Committees. Will of Select Committees. When does he think he will be in the Government please bring forward next week the 1177 Business of the House19 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 1178

[Patrick Grady] Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): Further to the question from the hon. Member for The Wrekin motions to establish both the Liaison Committee and (Mark Pritchard), I have constituents who are as far the Scottish Affairs Committee? I know that we have away as the Philippines and Peru at the moment. They had our differences about this, but we need the scrutinising have been told to contact the embassies, but the embassy mechanisms in place. staff have rightly been sent home and contact with the embassies is nigh on impossible. There is spare capacity Mr Rees-Mogg: I am obviously aware of these points. on the airlines at the moment, so can we have a statement Both Committees were prevented from being set up by from the Department for Transport or the Foreign actions within this House, so the Government are inevitably Office—or, better still, both—about how we are going deliberating on the consequences. The priority is ensuring to bring our stranded people back home? that the Select Committees that are already set up can operate, rather than necessarily the ones that are not yet Mr Rees-Mogg: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that set up. this is at the forefront of what the Foreign Secretary is Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): In difficult doing; I heard him say that only this morning. He is times we should remember those who sacrifice most, so ensuring that people who are in difficulties in remote may we have a statement or debate on the substance of areas receive as much support as the Foreign Office can early-day motion 280 about the scandal of war widows possibly give. who lost their pensions on remarriage? Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): Through you, Mr Deputy [That this House honours and recognises the sacrifices Speaker, may I thank Mr Speaker for the pace at which that our veterans and their families make; notes the he brought through the changes to the way we operate particular sacrifices that the partners of veterans make here in respect of social distancing and our practices? and the consequences for them of tragically losing a That was the right thing to do. It seems to me that, spouse or partner serving in the armed forces; notes the given the scale and pace of the coronavirus spread and changes announced in 2014 which allowed war widows or the threat to life, health, incomes and jobs throughout widowers that lost their spouse or cohabiting partner in the country, it is quite right that the Government bring service in the armed forces before 6 April 2005, and had forward emergency legislation briskly and want to see it not remarried by 1 April 2015, to retain their war widow go through the House briskly, but it is equally right that pension for life regardless of ongoing relationship status; Parliament has the opportunity to scrutinise the legislation. notes however that this regrettably excluded war widows I have a couple of questions along those lines. First, is bereaved before 6 April 2005 that had already had to there a particular reason why the Civil Contingencies surrender their war widows pension upon remarrying or Act 2004 was not used? It already contains many of the cohabiting; believes that this is unacceptable; notes that safeguards that I suspect the House will wish to see. the only way this group of war widows could regain their Secondly,if the emergency legislation is passed—I hope pensions is by divorcing their current partners and remarrying it is, given the circumstances, albeit possibly with a few them; agrees with the then Defence Secretary who said on modifications—what other opportunities will there be 18 February 2019 that this was a burning injustice, Official for the House to question particular measures? This is a Report, column 1187; and therefore supports the campaign dynamic and fast-moving situation, and it may well be of the War Widows Association to rectify this anomaly; that within literally 48 or 72 hours one of the measures and urges the Government to correct this injustice by adopted results in perhaps 1 million or 2 million unemployed providing equalisation and compensation for the small people with nowhere to go. What other opportunities number of war widows unjustly affected.] will there be for the House to hold the Government to May we also have a debate on early-day motion account quickly, should it prove necessary 307—which, more positively, is about the enhanced co-operation between Blind Veterans UK and the Blinded Mr Rees-Mogg: Unfortunately, the Civil Contingencies Veterans Association of America, which are setting up Act would not have worked in these circumstances, a new combined eye trauma taskforce—and look for because the problem was known about early enough for the Government’s support in that matter? it not to qualify as an emergency under the terms of that Act. The legal experts say that if we can introduce Mr Rees-Mogg: The Government recognise the unique emergency legislation, we should do so rather than commitment that service families make to our country, using the Civil Contingencies Act, because if we have and remain sympathetic to the circumstances of those time to introduce emergency legislation, we obviously widows who remarried or cohabited before 1 April knew about it long enough in advance for the Act not to 2015. However, the Government currently have no plans apply. That is why that Act could not be used. to reinstall state war widows’ pensions for war widows On future scrutiny, one reason why it is so important who remarried or cohabited before the 2015 change that we keep the operation of this House going—to which, took effect. The Defence Secretary stated in the House as I have said before, the Government are committed—is on 3 February 2020 that the Department is to ensure that scrutiny takes place. The Government of “examining alternative methods to see whether we can mitigate this country are the Executive and the legislature; they the impact”—[Official Report, 3 February 2020; Vol. 671, c. 3.] are not purely the Executive. We need to ensure that the of these changes. There is always a difficulty with legislature is operating efficiently, even if it has to operate cut-off dates. differently, to ensure that we carry out our proper role. As regards the co-operation between the US and the UK in relation to blindness and eye problems, what my Helen Hayes (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): right hon. Friend suggests sounds extremely worth looking My constituent, who is trapped in Peru, is being advised into, and I will ensure that it is taken up with the by the British consulate to apply for a place on a private Ministry of Defence. flight, at a minimum cost of $3,000. When a member of 1179 Business of the House19 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 1180 my casework team challenged that advice and suggested Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): I am worried for that my constituent may not be able to access $3,000 the many vibrant and unique pubs, clubs and music easily, she was told by the representative at the British venues in Newport West. Their insurance policies cover consulate, “Do they want it to be free, then?” That is not a long list of notifiable diseases, but covid-19 is not one consistent with the sentiment that the Leader of the of them. Sam Dabb, the owner of Le Pub, a co-operative House recently expressed when he said that the Foreign pub and music venue in Newport city centre, told me: Secretary is doing everything within his power to bring “Without Government intervention, my business will our citizens home. Will he ask the Foreign Secretary to not survive. Most people in the hospitality industry are come to the House to explain the lack of capacity in in the same boat.” When does the Leader of the House British consulates overseas, the appalling attitude that is expect the Government to announce what support will being taken by some of his staff, and how he is going to be provided to businesses whose insurance policies do ensure that our vulnerable citizens stranded overseas not cover covid-19 as a notifiable disease? can come home during this pandemic? Mr Rees-Mogg: I reassure the hon. Lady that the Foreign Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady is right to raise this Secretary is, as I said earlier, taking this issue with the point. The Chancellor has said he will do whatever it greatest seriousness. It is a little unfair to pick on one takes, which is an important commitment. The scale of example of an offhand comment and assume that that the problem is one that, if just moved to the insurance is the general way consulates behave. Consulates are companies, it would have an effect on the insurance deeply stretched because of the numbers involved and companies. We therefore need to look at what the the nature and unexpectedness of this crisis. Dare I say Government are doing and at their overall approach, it that all of us have come to realise the seriousness of and we need to take to heart the Chancellor’s word that this crisis over time, so some replies are getting better as he will do whatever it takes. time goes on and the necessity becomes clearer. The Foreign Secretary is certainly working very hard on Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The Chairman this issue. of the Backbench Business Committee, the hon. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), is away on constituency Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): The business so, on behalf of the Committee, can I ask my Select Committee on Defence wants to meet on Tuesday, right hon. Friend what provisions will be made for but it will not be doing so. We have the witnesses in place, restarting Westminster Hall debates, which are a major but they cannot beam themselves in virtually. I hope part of the Committee’s allocation? Alternatively, will that can be corrected so we can go to a digital environment. there be further time for debates in this Chamber? May I invite Ministers to give us a statement on Most of us did not use hand sanitisers until a few military assistance to civil authorities through the covid-19 weeks ago. I have seen evidence of wholesalers trebling support force? We have 20,000 armed forces personnel prices to retailers, but it is not clear that those increases on standby for mobilisation to assist during this coronavirus have been passed on by manufacturers. Wholesalers are outbreak. They will do a terrific job, but what will that clearly profiteering from these hand sanitisers, and retailers job be? There is speculation that they might be involved are left with the unenviable choice of passing on the in the shutdown of London, but we know that is increases or having a small margin. Can we have a incorrect. On top of that, they have a day job to do of Government statement on what will be done to prevent watching our backs to keep our nation safe. With that in such unfair profiteering at a time of national emergency? mind, and with the ever-increasing pressures that will be placed on those personnel as the coronavirus outbreak Mr Rees-Mogg: I will answer both questions. We will continues, will Ministers consider delaying the defence, have discussions about reopening Westminster Hall as foreign policy and security review until the new year? soon as that is practicable. There is a commitment to Mr Rees-Mogg: Select Committees need to think reopen it, and the discussions about reopening Westminster carefully about how they approach their business before Hall will be similar to the ones about closing it. Particularly anyspecific arrangements are made.Public evidence sessions at this time, with not all Ministers being available, the are the greatest strain on House resources because of pressure has been greater than normal, but that will the requirement for Hansard reporters, for broadcasting abate in due course. and so on. I ask the Chairmen of Select Committees My hon. Friend is right to raise the immoral practice to be considerate in their planning for public sessions. of profiteering and racketeering, and I call on wholesalers Private sessions require much less in terms of House to exercise better judgment. The Government are keeping resources. a close eye on such activity, as I said earlier, and will act On assistance from the military, I understand a written if necessary. Some people always feel the right thing to ministerial statement will be tabled today by the Ministry do in difficult times is to get involved in profiteering. of Defence. I agree with my right hon. Friend that the They should think twice about that and not do it. service provided to us by our armed forces, in all circumstances, is truly remarkable and inspirational. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) I am glad my right hon. Friend has raised some of the (Lab): I do not know whether the Leader of the House wilder stories that were circulating yesterday, and I heard his colleague from the Treasury answering an encourage all hon. and right hon. Members to listen to urgent question this morning, but it was quite clear that official sources of information. Some of the things the Government are struggling, in these exceptional going around yesterday seem to have been said merely circumstances, to come up with policies and guidance to make the flesh crawl. It is much better to listen to the and to get information out to the public on support for press conferences of the chief medical officer and the workers and families. On that basis, may I suggest chief scientific adviser for their calm responses to what gently to the Leader of the House that putting on the is actually happening. Order Paper for the coming days things like Second 1181 Business of the House19 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 1182

[Dame Diana Johnson] Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con): I welcome the unprecedented level of support provided to our businesses by the Reading of the Non-Domestic Rating (Public Lavatories) Chancellor earlier this week, but is it not also important Bill is not what this Parliament should be focusing on at to consider our charitable sector during this critical the moment? We should be having statements from time? Earlier this week, I spoke to the chief executive of Ministers so that Members of Parliament can raise the Suffolk Age UK to ask him how my office could support issues that their constituents are bringing to them daily elderly people in my constituency as much as possible. rather than starting legislation that is not vital in these He said to me that, in the short term, there are lots of exceptional times. volunteers—more volunteers than he has ever had before— but his major concern is about the financial future of Mr Rees-Mogg: We have had statements from the the charity. In many senses, charities operate in the Chancellor and the Education Secretary, and regular same way as businesses, and many of their fundraising updates from the Health Secretary to keep the House activities—charity shops, fundraising events—have had up to date. I would emphasise the word “provisional”. to be cancelled because of the crisis that we are going The business for the week after next is, as always, the through at the moment. Is it not appropriate for the provisional business and that which is provisional is not House to set aside time to debate how we can support set in stone. vital charities such as Age UK, which, through their Lee Anderson (Ashfield) (Con): During times of national volunteers, are supporting some of the most vulnerable emergency, the media play a vital role in delivering people in our constituencies at the moment? information to concerned viewers, listeners and readers. Scrutiny is good, but undermining the national effort by Mr Rees-Mogg: I thank my hon. Friend for raising spreading misinformation helps nobody and creates that and for the work he does to support charities in his panic among some of the most vulnerable members of constituency. I think all of us as constituency MPs have our society. Will my right hon. Friend raise this issue a role in our communities to do what we can to help. with broadcasters such as ITV, where Piers Morgan, I would go back to what the Chancellor has said. He is who has no scientific or medical qualifications, seems to aware that these difficulties are affecting a range of want to make irresponsible comments on a daily basis? sectors and he will do whatever it takes to provide the necessary support. My right hon. Friend the Secretary Mr Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to my hon. Friend of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport will be for his question and he is right to point out the role that co-ordinating the volunteering effort, to ensure that it is the media plays in informing the public and holding the as beneficial as possible. Government to account—[Interruption.] I hear a chunter from the Opposition Benches. Michael Crick is indeed Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): I brilliant; he is somebody I particularly admire and listened carefully to the Leader of the House’s responses one of the best journalists at holding people to account. to hon. Members’ points about the many UK citizens One does not need to take every utterance from stranded abroad—our constituents—and I am afraid it controversialists as holy writ. Piers Morgan enjoys causing will not do. Will the Government make a statement, a row and, frankly, it would be better to pay less written or otherwise, on their plans for repatriating UK attention to him rather than more and to listen to the citizens? Or are they just supposed to continue largely Government advisers. Free speech is very precious. If to fend for themselves? people want to say silly things and look foolish, that is a matter for them. Mr Rees-Mogg: One cannot always provide satisfaction, Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab): I am much though I have tried hard to do so, but Her sure that all colleagues across the House find that the Majesty’s Government are doing whatever they can to bulk of questions from constituents come in after statements help constituents in these difficult times. The Foreign when we have had an opportunity to raise matters, once Secretary is working very hard on this and is working the details, or lack thereof, of what has been proposed with the airlines on it. This is a process, and I am afraid and how it will impact on them have percolated— that not everybody is going to be repatriated overnight, from breweries to nurseries, to self-employed creatives because it is not simply a question of doing that; rather, and everything in between. Will the Leader of the it is a question of getting in touch with people, ensuring House arrange a general debate to allow us to raise that the facilities are available and then getting them supplementary questions and to give our constituents home. However, the Government are working hard to the assurances that they so desperately need in this very try to help constituents. fast-moving situation? Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Government Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Lady points out a perpetual undoubtedly need emergency legislation, but as I understand dilemma in the practise of holding to account. There is it the Bill is some 350 pages long, includes measures always pressure to come to the House in as timely a that, uniquely, would allow Ministers to switch on and manner as possible to ensure that the House is informed off their powers without any reference to Parliament immediately; on the other hand, there is better information whatsoever, and is intended to last for two years. Some available 24 hours or 48 hours later which raises more of these will be draconian measures restricting the questions. That is why one should view the process of liberty of the individual in this country. They may be holding to account as a continuum rather than as a completely necessary, but can I urge the Government to one-off occasion, and why it is important to keep this think about, first, making it possible for us to table House open, so that Ministers can be held to account. amendments on Monday, before Second Reading, which I am not sure that general debates tends to offer that is not the normal way, and, secondly, allowing these level of focus, but Question Times and continual statements measures to last for 90 days before approval by Parliament do, and that depends on the House sitting. and then to be renewed every 30 days thereafter? 1183 Business of the House19 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 1184

Mr Rees-Mogg: I would look more favourably on the Mr Rees-Mogg: I am always grateful to the hon. switching on and off mechanism, which, although not Gentleman for his campaigning for religious freedom, previously used, is a means of limiting these powers irrespective of the religion for which he believes there rather than extending them. I do not think it has been should be freedom, which is wholly admirable. We have done before, but it ensures that the powers will be consistently expressed our serious concerns both to activated only when necessary and, when unneeded, China and at the UN about the human rights situation will be removed. I think that is a step in favour of in Xinjiang, including extrajudicial detention of over maintaining as much liberty as possible. I recognise that 1 million Uighurs and other minorities in “political it is a long Bill, and I pay tribute to a parliamentary re-education” camps. The Foreign Secretary raised the counsel for their work, which has been really remarkable issue with his Chinese counterpart, State Councillor in the short space of time available. It is important that and Foreign Minister Wang Yi, on 9 March, and we these measures are passed with consensus. The hon. expressed our concerns in the UK in a national statement Gentleman has made his point; I am sure it will be— at the UN Human Rights Council earlier this month. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this is being taken Chris Bryant: Amendments? very seriously by the Government.

Mr Rees-Mogg: I had not forgotten amendments. Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The Leader of the House I believe there is a motion in my name to allow amendments is responsible for protecting the rights of Members of to be tabled before Second Reading, but I cannot give Parliament as well as being part of the Government. the hon. Gentleman all the comfort he wants on the Earlier, he mentioned the need to have regular statements change of time limit. here in the House, but I remind him that the Health Secretary came to the House under an urgent question Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ on Monday, the Chancellor came here only after he had Co-op): The Leader of the House and others have rightly made exactly the same statement to the press, and the talked about proper scrutiny of what the Government Education Secretary came with no plan on closing are doing, as rather highlighted by my hon. Friend the schools six weeks into the crisis. Scrutiny by this House Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). The Leader of is absolutely crucial. Today, the Cabinet Office is to the House was slightly disingenuous, if I may say so, publish a list of essential workers who will be able to when he talked about the Liaison Committee being send their children to school. That should be scrutinised delayed by this House. It was actually a power grab by by this House. A statement should be made in this the Government to impose a Chair from outside its House so that we can scrutinise the list. We need more membership that has caused the delay. Nevertheless, it statements from more Departments, not fewer. The is vital that that Committee is up and running, and it Government need to up their act, because it is clear that could be a hugely useful place for this House, if it had we have exposed a number of failings in the Government to shrink down its activities, to question Ministers through our scrutiny. It is important that that list is directly and the Prime Minister about actions, especially published here, so that we can scrutinise it. if we are living under draconian legislation, which is likely to be passed next week. Will the Leader of the Mr Rees-Mogg: I think the scrutiny has been carried House give us some comfort on that issue? out well by this House. Both the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Education were questioned for On the point about the motion on Tuesday relating to the best part of two hours, which is pretty comprehensive appointments to the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body, scrutiny, with Members having the opportunity to raise will we now finally see a group of professionals dealing constituents’ concerns and to make points that are with the northern estate and making sure that in the valuable to the Government to take on board as they midst of this crisis, having had flood and pestilence, we consider their policy developments. I am a great believer do not see this place burned by fire as well? in parliamentary scrutiny. I believe our adversarial system is a very good way of improving decision making, Mr Rees-Mogg: A great deal of work has been done so I am personally committed to it, as are Her Majesty’s on fire safety in this building, with measures implemented Government. that will ensure that we are much better protected than we were. That is very important. People will notice that David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): Whether it is the state rooms in Speaker’s House are currently not producing ventilators or acquiring hotels, there is clearly usable because fire safety measures are being implemented, a role for the private sector to contribute towards this so that is taking place. national crisis. I have a major soap manufacturer in my As regards the Liaison Committee, I think it would constituency, Queenslie’s Soapworks, which is happy to be a very novel constitutional development to think pitch in, but the company needs to know if it is to up that it could replace the whole House, and I am not sure production, which it can do within 24 hours. Can we that that would be something that I would welcome. have a statement from the Government on what is expected from the private sector, particularly in the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Before anyone was production of things like hand sanitisers and soap? quarantined for coronavirus, 1 million Uighur Muslims were in isolated camps run by Chinese Government Mr Rees-Mogg: That is an extremely helpful question. authorities. The combination of limited access to medical I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman’s constituency resources and high populations of elderly detainees company is brought to the attention of the relevant could lead to a humanitarian disaster if the virus reaches Ministry to ensure that, if more quantities of soap are the camps. Indeed, it may already be there. Will the needed, the company can be involved. The private sector Leader of the House arrange for a statement on this will be crucial in this effort in co-operating with what important issue? the Government are doing and changing production to 1185 Business of the House19 MARCH 2020 Business of the House 1186

[Mr Rees-Mogg] coming on at times when other business was taking place, and the Opposition graciously allowed their Opposition produce ventilators, and I am sure there is a need to day to be interrupted yesterday at an early time for a produce other things for which there is now greater demand. statement to be made, so I think our procedures are I am grateful to him for his helpful suggestion. being adapted. As I look around the Chamber, I notice that social distancing is being pretty well practised, with Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Like other hon. broadly the only exception being my opposite number, Members, I have constituents stranded overseas. David the right hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz)— and Anne Clements, who run a small business in my [Interruption.] And a couple of Government Ministers,too. constituency, are stranded in Quito in Ecuador. They We are trying to get the balance right and understand were due to fly home tomorrow, but there are no flights the Government’s message. What is the Government’s and no prospect of any in the immediate future. Could message? It is that social distancing is advised for all of the Leader of the House arrange for the Foreign Secretary us and strongly advised for those over 70 or with certain to make a further statement—he seemed to rule out serious medical conditions, but the Government have not repatriation in previous statements—and perhaps persuade said that businesses should not carry on, and our business him to attempt more co-operation with other Governments, carries on in this Chamber.That is in line with Government so that, if necessary, flights could be arranged for people advice—there is no contradiction between social distancing of different nationalities to bring them safely home? and continuing with business, as the other half of the Mr Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman makes a helpful hon. Gentleman’s question points towards. point, and the Government have previously co-operated Right hon. and hon. Members want to hold the with other nations on repatriation flights. The situation Government to account, and that means we need to be is developing and evolving and the ability to bring here to do that, but there again, a balance needs to be people home has become harder in recent days, but as I struck. My right hon. Friend the Health Secretary has said earlier, the Foreign Secretary is working very hard come to update the House often, but he also has on this and is in discussion with the airlines. considerable ministerial responsibilities—particularly heavy ones at the moment—and I think the House ought to be Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): I add my voice to the reasonable in what it asks of him. If he were to be here voices of all those MPs who have called for an urgent every day for two or three hours, that would be two or statement on what the Government are doing to repatriate three hours when he was not able to attend to his UK nationals. I have one constituent who is in a party ministerial business.Getting that balance right is important. of five in a military hospital in Hanoi in Vietnam. They In terms of my role, I recognise that I must look at it are staying in filthy conditions, surrounded by cockroaches from both directions—from the point of view not only and dead rats, and despite writing to the Secretary of of the House, with the House being informed so that it State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on Tuesday, can hold to account, but of what it is reasonable to ask I have had no reply. I have three constituents who are of Ministers. stuck in Peru. They have been told not to buy a private ticket, but to stay where they are and not even to Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): May I give the Leader attempt to get to an airport. We need to know from the of the House an opportunity to clarify his answer to my Minister, in this House, when and how our constituents hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and can get home. Leith (Deidre Brock), when we talked about repatriating citizens to the UK? The Leader of the House said that Mr Rees-Mogg: It is not is easy as that because there the Government would do whatever they can, and I am are different problems in different countries, and therefore, slightly concerned that that contrasts with the Prime simply to say when people can get home is not within Minister’s rhetoric, which is that we will do “Whatever the gift of the Government; different practices are being it takes.” I think we should be looking to do whatever it followed in different countries. However, I note that the takes to get our people back home to this country. hon. Lady has not received a reply to a particular inquiry and I will ensure that that is taken up so that a In addition to that, we heard a litany of challenges reply is brought to her in a reasonable amount of time. facing small and large businesses in our constituencies this morning during the urgent question. Businesses in Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I in Angus and Arbroath in my constituency are facing thank the Leader of the House for stressing how important challenging situations in getting their brokers, their insurers it is that Members here are well informed, but to the and, crucially, their reinsurers to face up straightforwardly outside world, it seems like the business of the House is to what the obligations are under business continuity business as usual. To echo the points made by my hon. claims. May we have a statement setting out what the Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), I suggest Government’s expectations of the insurance industry that we need more frequent updates or statements by are? Is this being done in tandem with the Association the many different Departments that are being impacted of British Insurers? on by this crisis, and not only that, but we need daily reporting from the Health Secretary to explain the Mr Rees-Mogg: I reiterate that the Government and, number of cases, tests, and deaths and the amount of in particular, the Foreign Secretary are working hard on equipment that we are getting out to our much needed the repatriation issue, but may I add that I will report to hospitals. Only then can we inform our constituents of him after this session the widespread concern of so how this crisis is impacting on our communities. many Members? This is not just one of those things that has come up from one Member with a particular Mr Rees-Mogg: The House has adjusted its programme case; it seems to be a concern across the House—I see to allow Members to be updated at unusual times. nodding and even hands going up—so I will pass that Thanks to Mr Speaker’s flexibility, statements have been on in an underlined fashion. 1187 Business of the House 19 MARCH 2020 1188

There are indeed a litany of challenges faced by Points of Order businesses, which is why the Economic Secretary to the Treasury was here for an urgent question earlier, and I understand the point that is being made about insurers. 1.22 pm It is difficult for the Government to make a single Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): statement on what will be a variety of contractual On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In his response obligations, but insurers, thanks to the intervention of to my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam the Economic Secretary, have already behaved well in Afriyie), the Leader of the House answered, in effect, relation to businesses that have not been formally told that the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 was not available to close but have de facto had to close, and there was a for this particular emergency. Knowing my right hon. helpful announcement made by the Chancellor a couple Friend, I am sure that he was repeating, in absolute of days ago. The insurance industry, very much criticised, good faith, the briefing he had been given, but I was is in some cases already behaving well. here and lived through the passage of that Act, and that is not my understanding of it. More importantly, it is not how a number of public lawyers understand the Act. So could you, Mr Deputy Speaker, undertake to get the Speaker’s Counsel to give this House an opinion as to whether that Act is applicable before we move the emergency legislation next week? Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. One key aspect of the 2004 Act is that the use of powers has to be approved by Parliament within seven days and the powers can last for only 30 days before they have to be renewed by Parliament. Indeed, the Act contains specific measures to ensure that the House sits if we are in recess or even if we are prorogued. So could you feed that into the process of answering the right hon. Gentleman? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): It seems to me that both points of order are supplementary business questions, but the Leader of the House is still in his place and will have heard both points of order, and I am sure that those on the Treasury Bench will reflect on what both Members have said today. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): On a point of order,Mr Deputy Speaker. You will know that Mr Speaker prides himself on standing up for the rights of Back Benchers, who, perhaps more than ever, need to stand up for the rights of their constituents. The House is due to rise on 31 March. The Leader of the House spoke about potential flexibility on that, and I understand whyhe did so.Can you give an assurance to my constituents, especially as the Government are seeking unprecedented powers, possibly without review or with review months in the future, that this House will sit for as long as it can, in order that the Government are held to account? Mr Deputy Speaker: I listened carefully to what the Leader of the House had to say during responses to questions. It seems to me that the commitment from the Government was exactly what the hon. Gentleman is seeking. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In business questions, the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee mentioned a motion that the Leader brought forward this week in relation to Select Committees, which created a new post outside normal Standing Orders of Chair of the Liaison Committee and put a named individual in the motion to take the post. That flies in the face of the normal practice adopted by the House for many years. The Chairs of Select Committees should be elected from among the whole House, with all Members having an opportunity to put their name forward, albeit on a party-balanced basis, for those particular positions. Could you determine, Mr Deputy Speaker, whether it would 1189 Points of Order 19 MARCH 2020 Points of Order 1190

[Kevin Brennan] Secretary Simon Hart and James Brokenshire presented a Bill to make provision about the application of the be possible for the Leader of the House to table an Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 where a amended motion, leaving that part of the motion out building contains two or more sets of domestic premises; and allowing the Liaison Committee and all Select and to confer power to amend that order in future for Committees to be set up forthwith? the purposes of changing the premises to which it applies. Mr Deputy Speaker: I should make the observation that Mr Speaker is very keen to ensure that the rights of Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time Back Benchers are properly respected. Therefore, I will tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 121) with explanatory make absolutely certain the hon. Gentleman’s comments notes (Bill 121-EN) are passed on to Mr Speaker when I vacate the Chair. CORONAVIRUS BILL BILLS PRESENTED Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) TRADE BILL Secretary Matt Hancock, supported by The Prime Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Minister, Secretary Priti Patel, Michael Gove, Secretary Secretary Elizabeth Truss, supported by The Prime Robert Jenrick, Secretary Gavin Williamson, Secretary Minister, Secretary Dominic Raab, Secretary George Thérèse Coffey, Secretary Robert Buckland, Penny Eustice, Secretary Alister Jack, Secretary Simon Hart Mordaunt and Jo Churchill presented a Bill to make and Secretary Brandon Lewis presented a Bill to make provision in connection with coronavirus; and for connected provision about the implementation of international purposes. trade agreements; to make provision establishing the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time Trade Remedies Authority and conferring functions on tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 122) with explanatory it; and to make provision about the collection and notes (Bill 122-EN) disclosure of information relating to trade. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time Mr Deputy Speaker: I remind the House that Members tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 120) with explanatory may now table amendments to the Coronavirus Bill. notes (Bill 120-EN) I encourage hon. Members—Chris Bryant is already going—who want to table amendments to do so by FIRE SAFETY BILL sending them to the Public Bill Office by email from Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) their parliamentary network account. If Members would Secretary Priti Patel, supported by The Prime Minister, like advice on amendments, I encourage them to phone Secretary Matt Hancock, Secretary Robert Jenrick, the Public Bill Office rather than visit in person. 1191 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1192 Sir Amyas Morse Review In the case of this individual, the loan charge policy Backbench Business took not just his money,but his self-respect and eventually his life. And there could be more. According to the loan Loan Charge 2019: charge all-party group, 39% of those affected have had Sir Amyas Morse Review suicidal thoughts. I think the Minister will be hard pushed to think of another Government policy that has Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): On a caused more than a third of those affected to consider point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sorry to have suicide. It is no surprise that it is having that effect on delayed my point of order, but it is pertinent particularly people. Some 68% have suffered depression, 71% face to this business. May I ask why the Financial Secretary’s bankruptcy, and 49% could lose their homes. I said in excellent biography of Adam Smith has not been laid the previous debate on this issue that the power to tax on the Table as one of the papers pertinent to this has the power to destroy, and that has never been more debate? clearly demonstrated than here. You will appreciate that Adam Smith was absolutely Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): I categoric in his view of taxation—that it should be fair, congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on bringing this proportionate, not retrospective and not arbitrary, which debate to the House. In the all-party loan charge group, is clearly the subject matter of this afternoon’s debate. we took evidence from a number of family members of people who had committed suicide as a result of the Mr Deputy Speaker: It is as if the right hon. Gentleman loan charge, and I can underline the point that he is read my mind. I am sure that those on the Treasury making. The impact on people who had been law-abiding Bench will have heard his comments. and hard-working throughout their lives has been quite traumatic. In a particular case that I remember—I am 1.29 pm sure that the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I (Ruth Cadbury) will remember this—the person who beg to move, took his own life did not owe a huge amount of money. That this House believes that the Loan Charge is an unjust and It was the fact that he had been made to feel like a retrospective tax; notes that the law on the Loan Charge was not criminal when he was anything but a criminal. settled until 2017; and calls on HMRC to cease action on loans paid before 2017. Mr Davis: The right hon. Gentleman makes an The motion is in my name and those of the hon. extraordinarily powerful point in his own skilful way. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) I say this back to him: his group took that evidence and my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest before the added economic stress of the coronavirus. East (Dr Lewis), and is supported by some 40 other Many of the individuals affected will be contractors. Members of the House. They will be people who perhaps have no rights at the moment and certainly no way of finding the money to I start by commending my right hon. Friend the meet the demands on them. Even small sums of money Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) will bring enormous pressure to bear on the individual. for having the courage to beat me to the punch in this So he is right: this is not some vague and abstract tax particular debate. It may seem strange to outside observers issue. This is about people’s lives. That is why I was that in the midst of a global pandemic and a huge national pleased when the Government launched the Amyas crisis that we are talking about a tax technicality—at Morse review into the policy, and in December, he least, that is how it might appear. But actually it is one published a detailed report. I commend him for his of the great virtues of our country that no matter what heroic attempt to find a compromise, because that is the crisis, whether it is a pandemic or warfare, the really what he did. The facts and the conclusions are a House always pays attention to issues of natural justice. little different, and that is because he was trying to find We never ignore issues of natural justice, even in times a compromise. However, when it comes to matters of of crisis. As a matter of justice, which this is, it is not a natural justice, I am afraid that a compromise is nowhere party political issue. In politics and our business, justice near enough. Such a detailed review deserves detailed is a matter of honour that we deliver to the British scrutiny, and I am going to spend a small amount of people, and that is what we intend to do today. time looking at his central findings. The loan charge is an injustice with very large Sir Amyas recommended a December 2010 cut-off consequences. Wehave all met and listened to constituents date for the loan charge. All loans before that date will who are facing utter financial ruin as a result of this be out of the loan charge scope. In a piece for The House policy. It is ruining people’s lives. There have been at magazine some time ago I referred to that as arbitrary, least seven suicides caused by the stress, anxiety and and Sir Amyas responded. He said: financial hardship of this policy. To give the House a “It is not an ‘arbitrary’ date. It is the date from which the flavour of that—because it does not apply just to those Finance Act 2011 ensured that tax was charged on income paid who have committed suicide but to those who are under through loan schemes.” stress—here is what the family of one loan charge But that simply did not make sense, even in its own victim told the all-party group about his suicide note: terms. The Finance Act was not law in December 2010; “He wrote about being at the end of his tether with the Loan it was simply draft legislation. It was not passed for Charge matter. He wrote such awful things about himself things another eight months—until July 2011. HMRC does that just weren’t true, that he clearly thought about himself at the time. He wrote that he did not set out to do such wrongdoings; he not, or certainly should not, take its instruction from wrote about being unable to speak to his GP about his anxiety as draft legislation. It certainly should not take it from he was ashamed, his fear of going to prison, his disgust in himself press releases, which was what actually went out on that for getting mixed up in the Loan Charge and his belief that he day. It takes its instruction from settled law—and the would now go to hell.” words “settled law” matter. 1193 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1194 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review [Mr David Davis] When something is as unclear as this tax law obviously was, we do not take the date of resolution from the first Sir Amyas went on to argue in his piece that, once the date that HMRC wins—we do not keep going until we 2011 Act was passed, get the answer that the Government want. We take it “tax should have been understood as being due from that point.” from the day it is finally resolved in the Supreme Court. But even in 2011 the law was far from clear after the The case was not finally and definitively settled by the Government suffered a series of defeats in the courts. Supreme Court until 2017, when it found in HMRC’s favour on the Rangers, Dextra and Sempra cases. The Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): My constituents Government—this relates to the point made by my just do not have any extra money—they have used it all right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West—then up each year. After 2010, they were continually told by passed further legislation to clarify the law. Even after financial experts and the companies they were contracted the court case, they passed legislation to clarify the law. to, “All is well—carry on.” Suddenly in 2017, they faced If it was so clear, why did we need a new law in 2017? a massive bill, and they just cannot cope. That is the fundamental point. Mr Davis: I am talking about how we got to that Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): My right position. I will come on to talk about the financial hon. Friend is making an unanswerable case in logic, status of these people, but my hon. Friend is right: these but I would like to put another political point to him. are not rich people. The cause of tax avoidance is not normally associated HMRC, which has claimed that this is clear law, lost with such parties as the Labour party or the Liberal the Dextra Accessories Ltd and Sempra Metals Ltd Democrats, but I am sure he would acknowledge that cases in 2002 and 2008 respectively, when the courts Members from both those parties have played a leading specifically rejected the idea that the loans could be role in trying to put this injustice right. subject to income tax. HMRC then lost a case in 2012 and again in 2014, demonstrating that the 2011 legislation Mr Davis: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. I had not clarified the law to the satisfaction of the started by saying that this is not a political issue; it is an courts. That is a key point—it was not a question of it issue of honour.As we would expect from our House—one not being to our satisfaction or our constituents’satisfaction, of the greatest Parliaments in the world, if not the but it was not to the satisfaction of the courts. The fact greatest—all sides take part in defending that honour. that HMRC lost twice and then won twice tells us that even experienced, highly informed judges spending a Sir Edward Davey: The intervention from the right great deal of time studying these cases found it a hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) was spot difficult issue to resolve. on: this has brought the House together. The issue is not about tax avoidance. I think everyone on both sides Sir Desmond Swayne: Is not the proof of the pudding of the House agrees that tax avoidance should be clamped in the fact that the 2017 legislation was introduced? The down on, and there is no disagreement that the loan loan charge itself is standing proof that previous legislation charge could apply in the future. What has deeply was not sufficient to tax the people involved, otherwise concerned many of us is that this is an offence against that would have been done. the rule of law, which is supposed to be a basic British tradition—one of our core values, which is taught in Mr Davis: As usual, my right hon. Friend trumps my our schools. I therefore totally agree with the points argument in advance, but I will come back to that in a made by the right hon. Gentleman. second. What that demonstrates—and what my right hon. Mr Davis: I thank the right hon. Gentleman—I nearly Friend’s point demonstrates—is a failure of the Treasury called him my right hon. Friend, from my days on the and HMRC to write clear and comprehensible legislation. Public Accounts Committee. If the judges cannot understand it, what chance is there When financial advisers and accountants could not for ordinary laymen—people who cannot afford to understand the law,when employers could not understand employ an accountant? We are not talking about city the law, and when the courts could not agree on the law slickers or international bankers; we are talking about until 2017, how could an ordinary layperson possibly locum nurses, social workers, careworkers and hospital have understood the law? cleaners. The Supreme Court’s eventual decision, overturning Dr Rupa Huq (Ealing Central and Acton) (Lab): The three decisions before it, reflects changing national attitudes right hon. Gentleman’s point that these are not city on the responsibility of the taxpayer—the point the slickers and tax-avoiding, money-grabbing sorts reminds right hon. Gentleman has just lighted on. As a result, me of my constituent, Caroline Cheasty. She was a one organisation representing the professions involved social worker in the public sector,with 24 years’experience explicitly changed its guidance to its members. It said: in local authorities. She had a career break, and when “Members must not create, encourage or promote tax planning she wanted to go back as a locum, she was advised to arrangements or structures that…set out to achieve results that are contrary to the clear intention of Parliament in enacting either form a plc or go with an umbrella company—that … is what she did. She came to my surgery in tears. Does relevant legislation and/or are highly artificial or highly contrived and seek to exploit shortcomings within the relevant legislation.” he agree that the Government should go after the promoters of these schemes, not the little people? In what year was that changed guidance handed out by the professions? 2017. Mr Davis: I do. The hon. Lady tempts me into a political point, because the Blair Government were the Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): My right most active promoter of these schemes, but she is right hon. Friend is making some very good points, which I in general. agree with. However, does he not agree that if something 1195 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1196 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review looks too good to be true, it usually is? In my business, Dr Julian Lewis: Maybe the thesaurus wasn’t clear. we have been brought this kind of scheme a number of times by our advisers over the last 30 years, maybe with Mr Davis: Yes, I will send HMRC a copy of Microsoft’s a barrister’s letter saying, “Don’t worry. It’ll be fine. thesaurus. Not only that, but in paragraph 3.8 of his You can reduce your tax bill hugely by adopting this report, Sir Amyas states: scheme.” We have always rejected them because we “The Review’s legal advisers found that there was no precedent knew the risk. Does my right hon. Friend agree that for that element of the design.” there is a requirement on the individual who subscribes That is the retroactive, retrospective or backward-looking to one of these schemes to make sure they understand element. There was no legal precedent for that design. the risks and that there is no guarantee the scheme will I hope, frankly, that the Government will now stop actually reduce their tax burden? playing with words and finally concede that this is indeed a retrospective measure—an unprecedented retrospective Mr Davis: My hon. Friend is, of course, a skilled measure. businessman; he knows what he is doing, and he is The only just, fair and rational resolution is to remove across this sort of thing—it is his job to be across the retrospective nature of the loan charge and set the it—but I am not so sure we could say that about a cut-off date when the law became clear—when the locum nurse or a social worker. This issue was actually Supreme Court finally settled the matter in 2017 and at the centre of Sir Amyas Morse’s arguments. He took when the Government felt it necessary to legislate to the view that the attitude from 2017 should apply back make clear what they meant in the first place. That is to 2010, even though the law was not clear. He took the why, as I made clear, if the Government do not act to view that the principle of a taxpayer’s responsibility for address this issue, Parliament—all of us who take this their own tax affairs must be upheld. That is the point very seriously—will have to act for them and make clear my hon. Friend is making, and it is right—but only that, in the future, HMRC can under no circumstances when the law is clear. That means that the Government act retrospectively. If we cannot solve this, here comes a have a responsibility to make the law clear and not to Finance Bill. I suggest that the Minister should make punish ordinary, hard-working taxpayers when Ministers one simple adjustment to his plans before they are fail to live up to that responsibility. published: change December 2010 to July 2017. That HMRC itself seems to disagree on the importance of would resolve the issue. It would lift enormous pressure the taxpayer’s responsibility. Why do I say that? Because off 50,000 of our constituents, and it would put the until 2014, it did not approach the individual taxpayers; Government in a morally defensible, justifiable and it approached the advisers. It approached the companies decent position. that insisted—they did not ask, but they insisted—that Tax law is the only part of English law where “innocent these locums and social workers took up this option. until proven guilty” does not apply. If HMRC tells us HMRC went to the advisers until 2014—until the issue we owe it money, then, until we prove otherwise, we owe suddenly started to become quite controversial. it money. It is therefore very important that the law is Last year, the Prime Minister himself commented on clear—that it is not subject to reinterpretation by subsequent this issue. He said: Governments and it does not move with social mores or “The real culprits in this matter, if I may say so, are not so whatever; it is simply clear. That is what we have to do. much the individuals themselves who have decided to use the loan In the interests of natural justice and the financial and charge as a way of minimising their tax exposure. It’s the people mental wellbeing of thousands of our constituents, it is who advised them that it was a sensible thing to do. In my view, time for the Government to change their mind and we should find a way of going after them.” remove this harrowing burden from the 50,000 people That is the Prime Minister’s view, and I happen to agree, unusually. who have been caught by it.

Dr Huq: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way 1.47 pm another time? Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): I intend to speak for only a couple of minutes. That is partly Mr Davis: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I am because of the outstanding introduction from the right trying to constrain my speech to 15 minutes, and it is hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), beginning to be a struggle with so many interventions. which was clear,logical and unimpeachable—I congratulate him on securing the debate—but partly also because the In summary, these people are now suffering because situation is simple. of a history of poorly drafted regulation and legislation and poor management by HMRC, targeted on the I am clear about two facts. First, disguised remuneration wrong people. loan schemes—DR schemes—were clearly a tax dodge and were used for people to pay less tax. It is absolutely On many occasions, the Minister and his predecessor right, as the right hon. Member for Kingston and have told me and the House that the loan charge is not Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) hinted, that we should retrospective. In his report, Sir Amyas Morse states: close down those loopholes. However, it is also clear “The Loan Charge can look back 20 years…This design has that the loan charge was put in place unfairly and been described by HMT as ‘retroactive’.” unjustly as a retrospective measure. What is the proof of The report describes the loan charge throughout as that particular pudding? Well, the right hon. Member backward looking. HMRC denies that it is retrospective; for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) beat us all it says it is retroactive. If I may say so, that is a to it, and he is absolutely right. Why on earth did we distinction without a difference. When I looked up need to introduce the 2017 legislation to introduce the “retrospective” in a thesaurus, guess what it said? It 2019 loan charge if, as the Government and HMRC defined the word as “retroactive or backward looking”. claim, these schemes were already illegal? They were not. 1197 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1198 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review [Christian Matheson] hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey), and to our former colleague, Greg Mulholland, That is why the loan charge was brought in. It is utterly who has done a great deal of background research in wrong to bring in retrospective legislation and retrospective support. taxation as a result. My understanding of the situation can be summarised HMRC is entirely within its rights to look at up to as follows. First, uncertainties arising from IR35 legislation five years of someone’s tax records, but only if the led tax experts to approve umbrella company loan information that the individual has given to HMRC can schemes. Secondly, many self-employed public sector be proved to be incorrect. Weare talking about individuals workers, among others, had no idea that they were who had their correct tax returns signed off by HMRC, being paid by means of such loans. Thirdly, if HMRC which agreed that they were perfectly legitimate and had been doing its job properly, it would have sanctioned lawful under current tax law but then reopened them, the purveyors of those schemes and warned the victims, not because there was a suggestion that the individuals as soon as they sent in their first annual returns, that had provided incorrect information, but because the they were making themselves liable for charges. law had changed or was not quite as HMRC thought it Fourthly—this is quite incredible—such schemes are was at the time it signed off those tax regulations. That still being sold to thousands of people who clearly still is HMRC’s problem, not the problem of my constituents. have no idea what is waiting for them from HMRC Fortunately, I do not know of any constituents who further down the line. Fifthly, the Morse review’s decision have taken their own life, but I do know of constituents to exempt people affected prior to 2010 leaves people who have lost their business and their house. One who were bullied into making large payments relating constituent’s marriage broke up. One young lad doing to the years before 2010 unable to get those settlements his first contracting job was told on the first day, “This rescinded. People actually paid money before the Morse is the way that we get paid in this place.” He did not review for a period that has now been exempted, and know any better; he was 21 years old and just out of they could probably negotiate better settlements, if any university. That was how he was encouraged by the were still needed, than those for which they paid money employer and, incidentally, his colleagues to undertake that they cannot now get back, because they cannot the scheme. He does not yet know what his liability will reopen the negotiation. be. Will it be £16,000? Will it be £60,000? The uncertainty Sixthly,people acted in good faith on the best professional is dragging him down. At the moment, he does not even advice that they could get. They should not have been feel able to work. left in blissful ignorance for years on end by a Government I congratulate the right hon. Member for Haltemprice body that is now playing catch-up. Because of the time and Howden (Mr Davis) and echo the right hon. Member constraints, I will not go through the harrowing personal for Kingston and Surbiton, who says that it is not a testimonies, but will stick to a couple more theoretical party issue. Members will agree that it is a question of points and then conclude. natural justice and fairness, and of not reopening tax Seventhly, it has been pointed out that there was returns that had previously been signed off by HMRC. something called part 7A ITEPA—part 7A of the Income By all means let us close the loophole, but let us not Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003—which came drag people into this dreadful sense of natural injustice. into effect in December 2010, and this has been cited as justifying the decision for the loan charge to apply from Several hon. Members rose— 2010 onwards. However, I am advised by Alan Williams Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Thirteen FCA, a constituent as well as a highly qualified professional, other hon. Members—in fact, more than that—want to that this does not apply to the self-employed, so the get in, so I plead for short contributions of the length self-employed who were so often the victims of this that we have just heard from Christian Matheson, otherwise set-up ought not to be caught by a provision—by the we will simply not do justice to the next debate. I call assumed knowledge of a provision—that did not, in Julian Lewis. any case, apply to them. An eighth point is that the loan charge is not, in any 1.51 pm case, full and final settlement, and therefore does not Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): During close open years. Even those paying the loan charge will business questions before this debate, I asked about the see HMRCcontinuing to pursue further sums for so-called perennial issue of war widows whose pensions were protected years in which loans were received. The stopped because they remarried or cohabited, and we recommendation of Mr Williams is that those accepting were told in no uncertain terms that those pensions the loan charge should be afforded finality by making would not be reinstated retrospectively. On 6 February, the loan charge full and final settlement. I tabled a question to the Financial Secretary to the I come to the conclusion that HMRC fell down on Treasury, who is present, about the apparent difference the job. It was asleep at the wheel. It bullied the victims, between the approach to war widows, who will not get and let the villains who created these schemes get away retrospective pensions, and people who will be hit with it. HMRC in this case is not just a bully; it is a retroactively by the loan charge. I was told in the reply negligent bully. The Government should know when that the loan charge is not retrospective. We now know they are beaten both morally and intellectually, stop that the reason it is not retrospective is that it is retroactive, flogging this dead horse and finally do the right thing. even if the two things are exactly the same. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for 1.56 pm Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) for taking the Sir Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): It initiative over several months to try to put this right, to is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for New the all-party parliamentary group ably led by the right Forest East (Dr Lewis). I am delighted to say that on 1199 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1200 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review this occasion I agree with every word he said. It is the with all the relevant material and back-up, had been nature of this debate that it has brought those on all accepted and the tax year had been closed. There can be sides together. For people who normally are not necessarily no doubt that going back to such a year is complete and in total agreement on economic and tax affairs, this has utter retrospection, yet the Government are still seeking brought us together. That is for the reason the right to apply the loan charge to those years. They have hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) narrowed in a most outrageous way the way we consider gave: it is about natural justice. the concept of a closed tax year. I set up the loan charge APPG last year, and I think it I am really unhappy with the way that the Government has become a group that illustrates the way in which the have responded to the Morse review itself, but the House has come together. We now have 227 members. review does have a big flaw at its heart. Because the My co-chairs are the hon. Member for Brentford and right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden set Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) and the right hon. Member out that flaw in detail, I do not need to speak for so for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning). I should say long. In essence, Morse says that the law that was that he wanted to be here today, but he has a family passed in 2011 in respect of the Income Tax (Earnings issue that has kept him away. and Pensions) Act 2003, and particularly part 7A, made Not only do we represent colleagues from across the it clear. Now, the right hon. Gentleman showed that it House, but I believe we have gone about our business in did not make it clear, even for those people directly a pretty professional way, with the support of the Loan linked to it, because of the timings that he set out. Charge Action Group as our secretariat. Wehave produced In specific detail, the expert witnesses whom we saw reports in the past, and as a group we have reviewed the in the APPG made it clear that that legislation covered Morse review itself and published our response. That only some of the schemes to which the loan charge follows two witness sessions, where we had tax experts applies—those schemes that involved employees who and loan charge victims. We have received more written were being paid via a third party—but completely omitted evidence, and we have built on our previous work. This entire existing schemes that involve the self-employed, 63-page report, published today, has 17 key findings on companies and loans paid directly to employees. There the Morse review and it makes 19 recommendations. can be no doubt that the legislation on which Morse I have been on a number of all-party groups during was relying does not apply to many people, because my time in the House, as I am sure you have, Mr Deputy they are just not covered by that legislation. It is not a Speaker, and it is relatively unusual for an APPG to do question of debate; it is just a fact. such a thorough and detailed report in such a short At the time, experts looked at the legislation and time. If I have one disagreement with the right hon. responded in the way that one would expect: they Member for Haltemprice and Howden it is that I wish looked at what the legislation said and changed their he had given us a little bit more time to do our work advice accordingly. Indeed, HMRC’s advice was based before this debate, although I am really pleased that we on what was actually in the Act, surprisingly enough. have got this debate. I hope the Minister, whatever he There is a 2016 technical note to which our report refers says from the Dispatch Box in response to this and in which HMRC specifically says that that is what debate, will undertake to read the APPG’s report and to the legislation said. respond to it. I find it quite extraordinary that successive Ministers When the Morse review was set up, we welcomed it; it have tried to defend this double-talk from HMRC. As is what we had been seeking. We had meetings with the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden Sir Amyas, and we gave him a huge amount of material. said, no court rulings in any way interpreted legislation It is fair to say—I put this on record on behalf of the in the way that the Morse review does. I have a huge APPG—that we welcome many aspects of his report. amount of respect for Sir Amyas Morse, but on this He talks about how unusual the loan charge is and how point he is entirely wrong. I do not read all the tax unique it is in respect of how it overrides statutory time literature, but the tax experts who have contacted us are limits, which are meant to protect the individual taxpayer, really clear that Morse is getting the legislation, as it and how it looks back over 20 years. What an astonishing was understood the time, completely wrong. piece of legislation to put forward. The report has a number of good recommendations. Bob Stewart: When the right hon. Gentleman took For example, it says that if the loan charge continues, evidence from people who are subject to the loan charge, after 10 years of repayment any remaining liability did he receive any evidence to the effect that their should be written off if the taxpayer has earnings of chartered accountants or financial analysts since 2010 less than £30,000. One would have thought that that had told them—the people they were being paid by—that was a reasonable recommendation, even if the Government they were in real danger and had better change the way want to stand by the loan charge, but they have rejected in which they paid their taxes? it. The Government rejected even that relatively modest recommendation. Sir Edward Davey: We took no such evidence and no I would have thought that Her Majesty’s Treasury such evidence was proffered to us. It might exist out and HMRC would have agreed with all the there, but we have certainly not seen it. recommendations, in the spirit of the Morse review, but I do not want to detain the House any longer, as I they have not. They have rejected some in full and some have made my core point. The whole reason why this in part, and they interpret some in a way that is clearly has been such a big issue and has united the House is not intended by the Morse review. For example, one that the loan charge is retrospective, and that is unfair group of taxpayers about whom I have been most and wrong. We have to defend individual taxpayers, worried is those who have had closed tax years—in even if we think they might have been ill-advised in the other words, their tax affairs, properly given to HMRC first place. We have to defend the law. Why do we meet 1201 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1202 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review [Sir Edward Davey] disclosure under disclosure of tax avoidance schemes legislation, HMRC’s anti-avoidance group had formally in this House? Why do we pass laws, unless we come reviewed the scheme and determined that it could apply back here and say, “Government—you’re breaking the no “hallmarks” of tax avoidance. Therefore, and of law”, and hold them to account for that? That is our critical significance, HMRC stated that the scheme was constitutional job, and I thank right hon. and hon. “not disclosable”. Members from across the House for doing their duty. The unambiguous contents of HMRC’s letter gave my constituent absolutely no reason other than to conclude 2.5 pm that its anti-avoidance group had undertaken a full, Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) diligent review of the scheme and that, in the absence of (Con): I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend the any adverse findings, he could continue to use the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and scheme safely. But even then, as a cautious person, my others on securing this important debate, and thank the constituent sought further confirmation from the promoter Backbench Business Committee for allocating the time. and was again reassured. Why would he not carry on It may not be the most pressing issue that we are facing using a scheme when he has sought so many reassurances? at the moment, but it does address the deeply held I restate: if HMRC had even the slightest concerns concerns of constituents caught up in this injustice; and about the scheme’ legitimacy and/or my constituent’s I say “injustice” because I truly believe that that is what use of it, its failure to openly communicate such concerns it is. denied my constituent the clear and obvious opportunity This debate is to look at the Morse review, which did to immediately depart the scheme in mid-2012. have some welcome outcomes, but I do not believe for As it is, HMRC notified my constituent in late 2013 one minute that it went far enough. I believe that that it had opened a formal section 9A inquiry into his everyone has a duty and an obligation to pay their fair use of the scheme, at which point he immediately ceased share of tax, and that anyone who evades tax should to use it. Regardless of that, to this day, more than six rightly be sought out and made to pay. But that is not years after that section 9A inquiry into my constituent’s what we are dealing with here. In many of these cases, use of the scheme was launched, it remains open, and we are dealing with ordinary people who were either he has yet to receive any technical argument from forced or persuaded into schemes that they were advised HMRC as to why it considers the scheme unlawful. were perfectly legitimate and approved by HMRC. And It is very clear to me that HMRC sees the loan charge there lies the problem. By way of example, I will share as a panacea for its historical and obvious failures. It is with the House an account of one of my constituents attempting to bypass my constituent’s basic right as a who is caught up in this situation and is facing a bill for taxpayer to have a court rule on any alleged additional tens of thousands of pounds, and potential financial liability. We have heard from countless hon. and right ruin. I know that the Government and HMRC have hon. Members, and from esteemed independent tax said that that will not be the outcome, but after looking practitioners, that HMRC must at the very least be at the details of his case, I assure the House that it forced to desist from using the loan charge to drive would be. through these retrospective, unproven and ordinarily My constituent is an intelligent individual, but by no out-of-time claims, which predate the enactment of the means a tax expert. When he gave up his job in 2011, Finance Act 2017. deciding to work freelance so that he could get a better I strongly agree with that viewpoint and feel that it work-life balance, he was advised to join a freelancer would be undeniably unfair and entirely unreasonable scheme—a scheme that was established and promoted to pursue people from before that date. Therefore, in the by an ICAEW-regulated chartered accountant. The light of the uncertainties caused by the current situation promotional literature unambiguously stated that the with coronavirus and its effect on freelancer’s ability to accountant’s scheme was work and earn at this time, may I please ask that the “anodyne, with no tax avoidance motive (HMRC words) involved”, existing legislation be amended so that the loan charge “legal and compliant” and is made prospective from 2017 onwards, which would “supported by tax counsel’s opinion ”. remove at least one level of uncertainty for this important At no point did the chartered accountant mention any group of people at this very difficult time? known or future possible risks, either verbally or in Several hon. Members rose— writing. The chartered accountant simply positioned my Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): constituent’s use of the scheme—through which he Order. Colleagues will see that a number of hon. and would receive a combination of salary and loans—as right hon. Members wish to speak in this debate and the perfectly legal and an “effective tax planning tool”. next debate. If we are to get everybody in fairly, I would That said, in mid-2012, having noted some adverse ask that speeches should be five minutes. media coverage of the subject of tax avoidance, my constituent sought confirmation from the promoter 2.13 pm that the scheme remained truly “anodyne”, as had been Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Ind): It stated when he joined it. The promoter’s response was is indisputable that everyone should pay their fair share unequivocal—that nothing had changed. of tax to fund our public services, and if recent events Later in 2012, a copy of an HMRC letter addressed have taught us anything, they have illustrated that we all to the promoter and dated 20 June 2012 was forwarded rely on the response of those services and that any to my constituent in validation of the chartered accountant’s future threat of funding must be resisted. However, the previous assurances that the scheme was legitimate. The Government’s current position on this issue is, frankly, letter confirmed that for the purposes of mandatory quite wrong and unjust. At £35 billion, the Government’s 1203 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1204 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review official estimate of tax losses is now the highest it has Like my hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon ever been, yet the true figure of tax avoidance by the super- and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe), I believe that rich and corporations could be as high as £120 billion everyone in our country must pay the taxes they owe— a year. individuals,businesses,everybody.That is how a responsible My constituent Doug Aitken is facing a significant society works. But the people this affects are not tax bill as a result of the loan charge. This is money that he avoiders, so I have some concerns on behalf of my simply does not have, and if HMRC persists, he will constituents about some aspects of the Government’s lose his home and his car,and, because he is self-employed, approach. I believe that it is my duty as a constituency the resulting bankruptcy will lead to the loss of his MP to bring them up with Ministers. business and his personal contribution to the Exchequer. Many constituents have come to see me at the surgery Like many, he took independent advice from tax experts and have told me the severe pressure that this has put before entering the scheme and was reassured that it them under; the pressure of making payments and possible was operating entirely within the law. He declared his insolvency has, in some cases, caused the breakdown of income and submitted his tax returns. He set money marriages, physical exhaustion, and suicidal thoughts aside, ready to pay any tax liabilities, and he kept the through no fault of their own whatsoever. I am also money for the HMRC look-back period. He is not aware from my constituents that many of those who used alone; a number of other constituents have contacted some form of disguised remuneration scheme did so at me about this matter. Some are retired or are now the behest of financial professionals they had hired to surviving on benefits. They simply do not have the advise them. Some were told that these schemes were resources to pay. Others have spoken of the significant HMRC compliant. Others were not even told that these impact on their mental health. Although the changes to schemes were tax avoidance and thought that they were the look-back period from the Morse report may exempt normal procedure. thousands from being pursued, thousands more are still facing the prospect of absolute financial ruin. This is I want briefly to ask the Minister to consider the nothing short of a disgrace and meaningful recovery is following points. Of course, any shortening of the time very unlikely, whereas bankruptcy is almost certain. for which people affected are liable for these payments is welcome, but even after 10 years the payments over In closing, I would like to offer my reflections on the three years are too regimented and draconian. What key argument put forward by Sir Amyas in favour of thoughts has the Minister had about lengthening the recovery.In his recent contribution to The House magazine, terms? It is simply not fair of HMRC to impose the he explained that the advice he took about legality was from retrospectivity that follows from this review. As I have tax experts. However, he also notes that the contributions said, many people were advised by financial advisers from those who entered the scheme’s evidence that they and are now being penalised because of the late realisation did not understand the implications—that is, they are and intransigence of HMRC. Does the Minister accept not tax experts. Although Sir Amyas might have sympathy that that should not be a portent for any decision with the loan charge recipients, pursuing them now is making on policy in this area? What steps is he taking to very unlikely to lead to any meaningful recovery. share the cost burden with the financial advisers who I previously served the health service ombudsman as recommended these schemes? They are getting away a clinical expert, and I was advised that I should not scot-free. assess the treatment and care provided against my gold standard practice level. Rather, my judgment should be Lastly, I want to raise the subject of HMRC. Even in tempered to a level of what one could reasonably expect. normal times, it is not the most transparent Government I would respectfully suggest that the current policy has Department, or the easiest to deal with; it is not known measured those in the grip of HMRC over the loan for its empathy or human nature. I really hope that the charge against the gold standard of tax experts and not, Government do not continue down this path, but if as it should have, against the standard of what one they do, it is vital that a bespoke, compassionate team would reasonably expect a lay person to understand. be set up solely to deal with the vulnerable people in our Although I firmly believe that individuals should pay constituencies who are affected by this issue. the taxes they owe, ruinous action from HMRC will help no one. The Government must act now to completely Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con): That is a gross remove all retrospective action. understatement of HMRC’s lack of compassion. If we are to move forward, HMRC must give individuals who 2.16 pm have suffered as a result of the loan charge situation Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con): I congratulate my certainty that there will be finality in the way the issue is right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and dealt with. Howden (Mr Davis) on securing the debate, and all Members who are members of the all-party parliamentary group for being here today. Having been in this Chamber Paul Holmes: My hon. Friend is absolutely correct. for only four months, I am not as experienced as others His point backs up mine. Any team that the Treasury in complicated tax arrangements, but, very quickly during sets up—and there should be one—to deal with people my election campaign and during my surgeries, this affected by the issue should treat them as people, not as issue has proven to be a huge worry for the many of my numbers, which is unfortunately how HMRC has a hard-working and honest constituents who run small track record of treating them. businesses. For me, thankfully, this is not a debate that revolves around complicated tax issues. It is a debate Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con): My that revolves around fairness and proportionality, and I hon. Friend puts his finger on one of the core points. think the Government have got that drastically wrong. Who is running the show here? Is it HMRC, or are the That is where the Morse review has not gone far enough. Government making sure that law on this matter is 1205 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1206 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review [Richard Fuller] for the tax he was due to pay, so he waited for the settlement figures and, in the meantime, paid £30,000 in paramount? Does he not find it ironic that HMRC’s accelerated payment notices—in fact, an advance payment annual report this year says that HMRC wants a system of tax. that can That year, he received a bill of £213,000, almost half “be trusted and seen to be fair, with the right safeguards in place of which was made up of interest and penalties. There to protect customers”? was no allowance for the vast expenses he incurred. Does this case not show that it is falling woefully short Ryanair made him pay for taxis, hotels and even water, of meeting that ambition? and he had no pension relief. HMRC did not deduct the APNs he had previously paid, and he had provided all Paul Holmes: I agree entirely. This is not the only case this information. He is still in dispute with HMRC. of people being treated unfairly by HMRC. I really None of that is fair. This has been a life-changing hope that the Minister listens to the concerns being experience for him and his family. He has been treated expressed across the House, particularly about the like a criminal. He has not evaded tax law, he believes he issue under discussion. There is a wider point here has acted legally at all times, and he refuses to allow about HMRC. As my right hon. Friend the Member for HMRC to ruin his life due to its incompetence. He Haltemprice and Howden said, it has decided to charge believes this is nothing more than bullying of individuals people retrospectively although the situation arose through by an all-powerful and out-of-control Government body its negligence. Never again—I feel this strongly—should that should rather be pursuing the people behind such it be allowed to adopt retrospective measures to cover schemes. its failure to get its policies in order. I will keep my speech short, as I appreciate we are Lastly, the Minister needs to make it clear, hopefully short of time. In the interest of natural justice and today, that the people affected by this are victims. They fairness, I support the motion: are struggling after following advice given to them by independent tax experts. I hope that he will look at “That this House believes that the Loan Charge is an unjust and retrospective tax; notes that the law on the Loan Charge was lengthening the repayment period, commit to dealing not settled until 2017; and calls on HMRC to cease action on fairly with the people affected by this, and never allow loans paid before 2017.” this to happen again. Ideally, he should at the Dispatch Box this afternoon scrap the loan charges affecting so many of my constituents. 2.26 pm Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): In 2018, when a 2.22 pm group of constituents first came to my surgery to complain about their treatment by HMRC, I was not particularly Allan Dorans (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (SNP): I sympathetic—they were talking about loan schemes, of pay tribute to right hon. and hon. Members on both course. After all, why should a group of people use sides of the House for their eloquence and the detail of schemes to pay less tax than the rest of us? If they do their arguments. That will save me some time in my not pay their fair share, others have to make it up, or so speech, and allows me to give the perspective of one of I thought. I was actually too harsh, not because people my constituents. I received a number of constituent should not pay their fair share of tax, but because I did inquiries on this subject, but I highlight just one. not understand the circumstances until they explained In 2008, one of my constituents was a pilot employed their predicament. by Ryanair. His conditions changed and he was forced First, the people I met were clearly not out to defraud to become self-employed. He attempted to register as the system. They did not look or sound like petty self-employed, and was asked a series of questions by criminals. They were normal, decent and honest. Some HMRC, including, “Do I supply my own equipment?” explained that they did not even have a choice, as we Obviously he did not; Ryanair supplied the plane. “Can have heard: either they used a loan scheme or they I work for who I want?” Absolutely not; he was on the would not be employed by the company or, in some Ryanair rota. “Can I nominate a substitute?” He could cases, the state. not, because he had registered with Ryanair and was allowed to work only so many hours. He could not Secondly, as self-employed individuals, they were often honestly answer yes to these questions, and so could not contracted to different entities. Nobody but themselves, become self-employed, although a number of his colleagues from what they earned, put aside anything for pensions, did. He, though, was an honest man, and he decided sick leave,paid holidays or,indeed, guaranteed employment. not to. They were much less secure than someone with a permanent job. My constituent looked for alternatives, and found a company on the Isle of Man—a group of qualified and In the interest of being quick, I have four requests of recognised accountants who, for payment, presented the Minister. First, I would like to see the retrospective him with a legal solution, known as an employee benefit nature of the charge removed up until July 2017, when trust. He did not really understand the implications of the Finance (No. 2) Act 2017 was introduced. That makes that solution, but he did his due diligence, and found sense to everyone. that it was indeed legal and acceptable to HMRC. He Secondly, if that is not possible, the Government proceeded with that system for four or five years, and should revisit the settlement terms, which are hugely filled in his tax returns legally every year on time, punitive. We have just heard the hon. Member for Ayr, declaring his usage of that scheme. He was made aware Carrick and Cumnock (Allan Dorans) say how punitive of the loan charge in 2019. He came forward to HMRC they are, and I would like to see a radical reduction in straightaway and offered settlement. He assumed HMRC extortionate interest rate charges and inheritance tax would treat him as an employed person and charge him demands. 1207 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1208 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review Thirdly, we would all find it distasteful for the If the law was so clear at the time, why did HMRC not Government to send out settlement terms using words enforce the law then, but instead choose to introduce that imply people have deliberately broken the law—they the loan charge in 2017? did not. HMRC allowed the use of loan schemes every As a member of the loan charge all-party parliamentary year. It sent the tax returns back, and people thought group, I call on the Government to do a number of things. they were doing right. I ask them to amend the date from which the loan Finally, I see no reason why loan charge repayments charge applies from 2010 to when the Finance Bill should not be delayed by a year, rather like IR35, in received Royal Assent in 2017; to ensure that closed tax response to the health crisis we are all facing. So many years remain closed; to ensure that those with incomes people are worried enough at the moment. Give them a of under £30,000 have any outstanding balances written break—give them another 12 months. off after 10 years; and to ensure that legislation covers business owners and directors, as well as individual 2.29 pm contractors. Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): The Government and HMRC’s reputation has been Let me say from the outset that I am no fan of tax damaged by the way that they have mishandled the loan avoidance. The law on disguised remuneration schemes charge situation. One principle that must underpin our should have been—and now has been, rightly—tightened, legal and tax system is that things should be just and but the aggressive retrospective action taken by the fair. Unfortunately, the loan charge and its aggressive Government in pursuing the loan charge policy and the application has been neither just nor fair. profound effects that this has had on many people’s Sally-Ann Hart (Hastings and Rye) (Con): The hon. lives are quite simply unjust and unfair. Gentleman talks about the system being just and fair. A significant number of people affected by the loan As British people, we uphold the rule of law. That is charge policy, including some of my constituents, are part of the very nature and fabric of Britain. Retrospective freelancers, contractors, locums and agency workers. legislation, in itself, is against the rule of law. When IR35 was introduced by the Government of the day in 1999, some of those who were employed Bambos Charalambous: The hon. Member makes an by limited company or personal service companies excellent and pertinent point. We are discussing tax sought and took professional tax advice and were advised going back 20 years, and retrospective legislation should to use umbrella company loan schemes instead, as those not be applied in this situation, because that is clearly schemes were “tax law and HMRC compliant”. Acting unfair and unjust. in good faith and following the advice to the letter, We must consider that, beyond the financial aspects many entered into these loan schemes. In some cases, of tax recovery, we are dealing with real people who need particularly in the public sector, people were not even to be treated with fairness and respect. We have a moral aware that they were being paid through loans. duty to ensure that no more homes are lost, no more When the loan charge was introduced in 2017, seeking bankruptcies are filed, no more lives are lost and no more to recover a 20-year retrospective tax charge for all families are broken because of the loan charge policy. remuneration paid in the form of a loan, those affected were rightly angered and aggrieved, particularly as 2.34 pm HMRC lumped all the loans together into one and David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) insisted on the tax being paid in a single year. The shock (Con): Like many of those who have spoken in this and stress of such a draconian and unjust measure debate, I have met many constituents, during the election caused intense pressure on many of those affected and and since, who have been directly affected by this issue. their families. There have been seven known suicides by I have had the chance to go through with them many of people who are facing financial ruin as a result of the the contracts they have signed and some of the advice demands of backdated tax from HMRC, even though they received from many of the professionals, who, we it is questionable whether the tax was even owed. would all agree, based on what has been said today, are Relationships have broken down, and it has affected the villains of the piece from the perspective of this House. people’s mental health. I have heard many examples of where professionals It is worth noting that HMRC has pursued individuals were paid and people should have been able to rely on acting in good faith, rather than those who enabled the their providing good, clear and legal advice, but they disguised remuneration loan schemes. Thankful for small have left those people in a difficult financial position mercies, the fact that HMRC is now only pursuing today. schemes going back 10 years, instead of 20, is to be I sympathise with the position that Sir Amyas Morse welcomed, but many individuals are still caught by the found himself in, and I believe that what he has put current situation. It seems that, unlike in other areas of forward in his report, although a number of points and law, statutory time limits are of no consequence. concerns remain, represents a reasonable attempt at a When the Prime Minister was running to be leader of compromise to bring about a resolution of this situation. his party, he promised a review of the loan charge It is my understanding that many of these legal cases situation. That review was led by Sir Amyas Morse, revolve around the question of how we define a loan. and the report was published in December 2019. While The position of the Inland Revenue, as it was, and now I welcome the recommendations of the Morse report, many of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is that money of which the Government have accepted, unfortunately that someone receives for doing their work and that it does not go far enough. The report also has one fatal they spend as their income is their income and should flaw: it concludes that the law was clear from 2010. be taxed as such. The Inland Revenue and HMRC have There were a number of ambiguities at the time, such as always permitted both employees and directors to receive the situation relating to those who are self-employed. loans from the organisations for which they are working. 1209 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1210 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review [David Simmonds] 2.40 pm

Indeed, many of our constituents will have access to Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to things such as season ticket loans, provided on a regular speak in this important debate. I will be brief and basis, which are free of tax because they are loans. focus my remarks on two or three key areas that have been partially mentioned by some colleagues earlier. From reading the contracts that many of my constituents I thank the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and have signed and having heard in detail the advice that Howden (Mr Davis) for securing this debate and they received, it seems clear that at the heart of this is a commend the work of the all-party parliamentary group fundamental problem: the schemes themselves were and the cross-party nature of the debate today, which lawful because it was lawful to receive a loan, but the is helpful. money the constituent received was tax-free only if it was genuinely a loan. But as five, 10, 15 or 20 years have First and foremost, I put on record my fundamental gone by and there has been a complete absence of support for a fair tax system. We obviously need to raise evidence that these things were genuinely loans, because taxes to pay for vital public services, but that system the person has received that money as remuneration and clearly has to be fair. I think that the points made by a spent it as their income, HMRC has naturally begun to number of colleagues across the House on the matter take a lot more detailed interest in that, and this situation are absolutely right, and I am grateful for the emerging has left many of our constituents in a real bind. consensus on the issue. I am mindful that, when we read Morse’s proposals, Secondly, I highlight the importance of the issue of we see that he proposes a process of resolution containing the loan charge. The fact that this debate is taking place a number of different avenues that the individual taxpayer today in a period of sustained national crisis—indeed, affected can explore. I hope the Minister will consider that it is a crisis for the whole world—is interesting, and it somewhereattheheartof thisismakingsurethatindividuals does underline the importance of this issue. I was who acted in good faith, notwithstanding the fact that approached about it a number of times during the they were badly and incorrectly advised by professionals, general election, like many Members here today, and I should be enabled to have the benefit of the fact that they have had constituents contact me about it. There is deep acted in good faith when they signed their tax return, unease in the community, certainly in the constituency I even if the information on it, prima facie, was not represent, which is made up of Reading itself and the correct. They were not intending to evade tax and thought neighbouring town of Woodley,about the problem, which they were doing something that was within the law. affects many people. I noted the figure of 50,000 people In summary, I am also conscious that although we across the country. It certainly seems to be higher than have heard a vocal campaign on this during the election that, given the proportion of people in my community campaign, 99% of taxpayers in this country never go who seem to be affected. near a scheme such as this. Quite a few of those taxpayers have said to me that they find it hard to credit that I draw Members’ attention to the effects on a typical anybody thought that by describing the pay they received town of its type, as Reading is, and specific industries for their work on their tax return as a “loan” that meant where I believe there may be a particular likelihood of they did not and never had to pay any income tax on it. the problem arising. In the area I represent, a very large number of people are self-employed and have Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): Jeff in my microbusinesses or work as consultants in one form or constituency, who is hard-working, played by the rules. another. That is spread across a huge range of sectors, According to the rules, as far as Jeff was concerned, and from traditional small businesses through to people as advised by accountants and even by HRMC, everything with trades or IT skills and public servants. It is a vast was in order. He was doing a good job and paying his range of people. way. As Members from across this House have said, this I want to add to the point made by my hon. Friend is about fairness and justice. the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) about locums in public services affected by the issue. David Simmonds: Everybody in the Chamber is going I know of cases where a number of people in public to agree with that point, but fairness and justice clearly services have to set up as a company and work on that extendtothisChambermakingdecisionsthatareappropriate basis, perhaps as a supply teacher or in some other for everybody.I am very mindful of what my hon. Friend interim role in public services. I should declare an the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) said about interest, as I have certainly operated in that way in the ensuring that everybody pays their taxes and everybody past as an interim public servant. In the more distant is treated fairly.I simply say this: there has understandably past, I was a full-time civil servant. Locums are a been a huge outpouring of sympathy towards people well-known type of employment and a subset of those who did not expect to find themselves facing a very people—not all of them—are affected by the loan charge. substantial tax bill because they thought they had done the right thing. I urge Ministers to be as helpful and as As well as my area, many other nearby parts of the considerate as possible in approaching the settlement of country have similarly high levels of employment in IT. that, but it is also clear to me, as someone who worked There is a particular prevalence of self-employment as a professional in the financial advice business—not as among IT professionals. If we think of the great IT a tax adviser—when these schemes were being rolled businesses in this country—companies such as Microsoft, out, that huge numbers of people avoided them, because Oracle or Vodafone—many of them are headquartered theyrecognisedthattheywerebeingaskedtoputsomething in the Thames valley or west London. Many of those on their tax return that they knew was not correct. We large businesses rely heavily on subcontractors who therefore have to strike the right balance in how we deal have often no choice but to set up a limited company with the issue today. that then serves the much larger organisation. 1211 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1212 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review In my area, many people who are affected by the loan Government policy. They said there was no need for a charge are in the IT industry. There are whole WhatsApp review of the policy.The right hon. Member for Kingston groups of people in parts of the IT industry that are and Surbiton tabled an amendment calling for a review, buzzing with concern about the matter. As has been we had a debate in the Chamber almost a year ago and said, the issue ranges back over many years and there is a Treasury report that was a whitewash, frankly.Meanwhile, deep uncertainty and pressure on these workers and more and more Members were being contacted by their small businesses and, indeed, their families, because worried taxpayers describing the bullying of HMRC of this whole problem. As I said earlier, we are debating and their fears for themselves, their families and their this issue at a time of national crisis. Imagine how that work. We kept standing up, we kept asking questions concern overlays itself on top of the existing pressures and we kept lobbying Ministers. that we talked about earlier today and yesterday. Quite The Prime Minister, in his leadership bid, promised rightly, we in this House have discussed and raised with to hold a full review of the loan charge. We have had the the Government the importance of supporting small review, led by the highly respected Sir Amyas Morse, businesses at this time of national crisis. whose report was released on 20 December, and on the Imagine how it would feel to be a small business same day, HMRC released its response. For taxpayers, person or an IT subcontractor who was the breadwinner the Morse review means that they are looking to the future, in their family. Their source of income could dry up but I have heard several extremely troubling cases from because of this crisis, which is not of their making and my constituents who face the loan charge. This is about that they have not anticipated. At the same time, they HMRC behaviour. In one case, my constituents provided face the long-standing problem of the loan charge all the information asked for and heard nothing back looming over them, with the very grave measures that for two years. They received a note from HMRC saying other colleagues have mentioned today. Some of the they were facing the loan charge with interest added, examples that have been mentioned are truly dreadful. including for the two years when they had had complete Imagine that pressure. That is what we need to do radio silence from HMRC. How is that justified or today—to think about what it feels like for somebody proportionate? Based on evidence to us, and I assume who is a small business person or self-employed. I know to Sir Amyas, along with casework and conversations the Minister is dutiful and well-read and, as was said with colleagues, including some casework wholly unrelated earlier, he has written a biography of Adam Smith. I to the loan charge, it feels as though HMRC is just not hope that he will look again at the evidence clearly and capable of providing a competent service. thoroughly and in the context of the current situation Others today have rightly mentioned the anxiety and affecting small businesses. uncertainty of taxpayers as they are chased for almost 2.46 pm immediate payment of sums that they just do not have, and without any justification for the amount demanded. Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab): I Usually, any previous information that they may have thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing sent to HMRC is completely ignored. the debate when I know they had a backlog of requests on many important issues. I also thank my fellow I just want to touch briefly on poorly paid and sponsors of this debate, my fellow chairs of the loan vulnerable people. The Morse review recommended that, charge APPG, particularly the right hon. Member for after 10 years, the loan charge should no longer apply Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey), and the to people who earn less than £30,000 a year, but the right hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Government rejected that recommendation. Let us Penning), who cannot attend today because he is dealing remember that many of these people are working in the with a family medical emergency. We wish him well. public services—in the NHS and local authorities—and I also thank the officers of the loan charge APPG many of them do not have accountants. Many were and the action group. I can confirm that the three effectively in a position where they were told that, if co-chairs of the APPG, from three different parties, all they wanted this work, they had to sign up to this endorse the APPG report that was released tonight and umbrella scheme. The head clients will now no longer is on our website. It is a pleasure to follow so many contract with personal services companies, so these Members who have described in vivid terms the experiences umbrella schemes are all that is available to them. of their constituents, so I will not dwell on those too We have social workers, junior doctors, nurses, cleaners much. I have similar experiences. and so on facing many charges year after year. To address This is a time of incredible worry for most people in this injustice, Sir Amyas made a reasonable request. It this country for their loved ones, their neighbours and was that HMRC should not chase loan charge payments themselves, and many of our constituents—perhaps between 2010 and 2016 if the individual made a reasonable most of them—are facing catastrophic and even absolute disclosure, but the words “reasonable disclosure” were loss of income. While this debate is wholly unrelated to changed by the Treasury to “full disclosure”—a term the covid-19 virus, for the victims of the loan charge which, according to tax experts, has little or no relevance scandal, who are already worried about their financial in tax law. futures, the coronavirus outbreak only heaps more agony Where do we go from here? For months and months, on top. we have heard the Government say that this is not a I agree with the points that others have made about retrospective matter, yet they made an agreement with tax avoidance, but this is not about tax avoidance, Sir Amyas Morse and shifted the date that the loan charge which we abhor and would like to see closed down. This applied from 1999 to 2010. If they can change their debate is about natural justice, as has been said by so mind once, surely they can do it again. If the Government many. When the APPG started, the Treasury and former can defer the roll-out of IR35 to the private sector, as members of the Government said there was no problem they did earlier this week following extensive concerns, with the loan charge and it was a perfect piece of they can change their mind on the loan charge, I hope. 1213 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1214 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review [Ruth Cadbury] 2.54 pm Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab): I, too, congratulate The new suggested cut-off date of 29 December 2010 is the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden based on the law being clear, yet we know now that this (Mr Davis) on securing this important debate at a time was not the case. If the law was clear then why did we of national crisis. This is a crisis for 50,000 people need the loan charge and another change in legislation across the country, and it will exacerbate the already in 2016? difficult mental health and economic situation they I would like very briefly to list some of the concerns face. I welcome the agreement we have heard across the that are in our report but that have not yet been raised House during the debate. in this debate—[Interruption.] Madam Deputy Speaker Let me make it clear at the outset that the debate is is coughing at me, so I urge anyone reading Hansard or not about protecting and keeping in place loopholes watching this debate to please look at the report that we and avenues for tax avoidance. I join other Members in released last night. It is on the loan charge action group saying that tax avoidance is a scourge, and any initiative and the loan charge all-party group website. or legislation aimed at tackling it has my full support. In finishing, let me return to a core question. Is applying However, I do not support cruelly punishing more the loan charge from 2010 justified and proportionate? than 50,000 people and their families—hard-working The answer to that from the all-party group is, no, it is entrepreneurs who acted in good faith—and often driving not. I would go further and ask: is HMRC abiding by them to suicide. I have met many constituents at surgeries Adam Smith’s principles of fair taxation, which were who have been in tears as a result of the effect of this mentioned at the beginning of this debate. Furthermore, issue on their family. are HMRC and the Treasury abiding by the Nolan One constituent was hit with a bill for £158,000 plus principles of public service, particularly selflessness, interest five years after retiring. There is no way that he objectivity,accountability,openness,honestyandleadership? can repay that charge. He was advised by his accountant I urge the Government to listen to the strong opposition in 2007 that entering into employment via a loan to this retrospective, unjust and unfair tax and, quite remuneration scheme was entirely legal. That is a theme simply, to do the right thing. among the constituents who have come to see me. They 2.52 pm say they found out that these schemes were QC-approved, Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): Madam Deputy they felt they were entirely legal and they did their due Speaker, I will obey your instruction to be brief by diligence, but the law has failed them. Although the merely commending the contributions to this debate Government’s decision to accept most of Sir Amyas’s from the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden recommendations is a very welcome step, the loan charge (Mr Davis) and my right hon. Friend the Member for is still grossly unfair and is destroying lives in my Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey). constituency and across the country. I merely add that, as a member of the accounting In the interests of time, I will cut to the six changes profession, I have been somewhat abashed during this that I urge the Minister to consider. First, he should call debate. We are not coming out of this well. I was off the dogs during the coronavirus situation and remove contacted by a constituent of mine, Dr Nausheed Baig, the threat of these huge charges from our constituents. who is an NHS dentist. He is there to practise the skills This is a mental health crisis for many people. Secondly, of dentistry. He takes full responsibility for his tax the date that the loan charge looks back to should be affairs, and he does that by consulting a professional amended from December 2010 to the date of Royal tax adviser. I believe that HMRC should always take Assent of the Finance Act in July 2017, as the law was into consideration the fact that taxpayers, in taking not clear. responsibility for their affairs, are not expected to be Thirdly, the Government should accept the Morse tax experts themselves, and it is perfectly reasonable review recommendation that unprotected or closed tax and rational to consult and take advice from qualified years should remain closed. Fourthly, they should accept accountants such as myself—I have never charged for the Morse review recommendation that people with tax advice, so I do not have a declaration to make. incomes of under £30,000 should have any outstanding I wish to raise the case of another constituent of tax balances written off after 10 years of making a mine, Mr Michael Bilton, who is now retired, and his genuine attempt to pay on the terms that have been wife is on the verge of retirement as well. Between them, announced. Fifthly, the legislation must treat business they take care of their disabled daughter. Mr Bilton was owners and directors equally with individual contractors. in a loan scheme prior to 2010 and received notification Finally,anyone still using these schemes—I was astonished only a few years ago of the large sums of tax that he was to find out that that is still going on—should be told now required to pay. He has already paid a considerable immediately of the liabilities that they face. sum. The outstanding liability is of considerable concern Wehave to tackle tax avoidance, but using retrospective to him, as he and his wife prepare for retirement and to charges, which are ruining the lives of hard-working take proper care of their disabled daughter. I urge the contractors and entrepreneurs and putting them in Minister to think about those people who have already hundreds of thousands of pounds of debt overnight, is paid large sums. Sir Amyas Morse has confirmed that not right or just. The companies that promoted these anything prior to 2010 should not be liable to a charge. schemes should be penalised, and the Government should I urge the Minister to consider rebates for those people accept the blame. who have paid vast sums already into a scheme that has now been judged not to give rise to a charge. I realise 2.58 pm that there are considerably more pressing issues, but if Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): Let me that could be attended to in due course, I would be first congratulate the right hon. Member for Haltemprice extremely grateful. and Howden (Mr Davis) on his brilliant introduction to 1215 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1216 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review this issue and on standing up for the victims of this when it paid the equivalent of 4% corporation tax. It scandal—and it is a scandal. I am a proud member of seems that there is a disproportionate way that the people the all-party parliamentary loan charge group. who have been caught up in the loan charge are being Two constituents, Fraser Kennedy and Jason Millington, dealt with compared with other people who can get a have been in regular contact about this issue. Indeed, sweetheart deal. That is how I thought I could try one Monday morning, as I was travelling down to to deal with it, because if the answer is, “Yes, it is tax Westminster, I got the fright of my life when I saw the avoidance”, then the people HMRC should really be number of Twitter notifications I had. It surprised me going after are those who contrived and promoted such because it had been a quiet weekend, so I knew I had schemes, because they are the ones who are directly not said or done anything particularly controversial—at responsible. They should be pursued and punished, and least not that particular weekend. It was a tweet from there should not be the blunt instrument that is being Jason Millington, who said that what had kept him used for those caught up in the loan charge. going was that he had the support of me and so many The third conclusion is, as the hon. Member for other MPs in fighting this injustice. North East Bedfordshire (Richard Fuller) said, that there have been disproportionate actions from HMRC Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): I congratulate towards the individuals who have been caught up in this my hon. Friend on avoiding controversy and recommend and how they feel. My constituent, Fraser Kennedy, that for all Scottish National party MPs. sums it up well. His employer, Winchester, assured him I have had two constituents get in touch and I have and HMRC that it had paid all the tax and moneys, but tried to make representations on their behalf, because he is still getting chased by HMRC. He feels bullied and they found themselves in a situation that they absolutely harassed, and is suffering from stress and anxiety because did not intend to be in because of the information that of how it has handled the matter. He believed that it they were given. Does this not show the importance of was settled a year ago, but he is still getting correspondence. constituents getting in touch with us? I understand from the people running the all-party parliamentary Paul Holmes: The hon. Member’s speech perfectly loan charge group that there may be more such constituents sums up the problem for many of my constituents in out there, and it is very important that they contact Eastleigh. So many times, they get a letter and desperately their MPs so that we can give them tailored advice and try to get through to HMRC, but there is no constructive support. dialogue with HMRC. Does he agree that we need a better bespoke team to work with the people affected by Chris Stephens: My hon. Friend is right; that is very these measures? sound advice. Everyone who has spoken so far today has been a credit not just to the House, but to their Chris Stephens: I entirely agree. The hon. Member’s constituents, because there are far too many people—such constituents in Eastleigh and my constituents in Glasgow as my constituents, his constituents and others—who South West will have the same feelings about this matter are in despair because of this issue. and how they are being treated. Jason Millington emailed me his thoughts last night, Richard Fuller: On the importance of Members of because he knew that the debate was today. He said that Parliament speaking up, is the hon. Member concerned, he when he was advised of the changes in 2016, he as I am, that effectively, HMRC is smearing constituents stopped immediately and put his affairs in order, totally as tax dodgers and adding to their mental anguish, unaware that HMRC was looking for back taxes. The rather than trying to assist them through this process? requests that are being made are entirely unreasonable. Chris Stephens: I am not only very concerned, but The stress of not knowing how he can ever repay what angry about some of these actions and what I have HMRCis looking for is having a serious impact personally, heard today about what HMRC is up to. I will speak and indeed professionally. I do not remember the tax more about that. avoiders such as Google complaining publicly that they were feeling bullied and harassed, or that they were When constituents such as Fraser Kennedy and under stress or feeling anxiety. It seems appropriate to Jason Millington come to us to discuss this issue, three point out, as many hon. Members have, that if the law immediate things leap out at us. This has come up in the on tax was changed in 2017, that is when the law should debate, including in a fantastic example from my hon. apply from. Going back to 2010 is entirely unreasonable. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock I support the motion. (Allan Dorans). In this Parliament, we really need to deal with the relationship between an employer and a 3.5 pm worker and their status in the workplace, because it really is time to end the bogus self-employment that we Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab): It is a long time since have heard about in this debate and in other examples. I read Adam Smith, but as I recall, the fourth maxim This needs to be addressed because what this issue has goes along the lines of, “Take from the taxpayer only proven is that the wrong people are being targeted. that which is needed for the public realm.” Of course, The hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) said the converse of that is that the more people do not pay that when people first come across this issue, it looks their taxes, the more the rest have to pay to balance up, like some sort of tax avoidance scheme, and I think it is so Adam Smith’sstatement is not absolutely unambiguous. perfectly natural for someone to think that when it is As almost everyone has said today, tax avoidance first explained to them. In the back of my head, when I should not be allowed. It should not be encouraged. first heard about it, I thought, “Well, maybe I will approach It should be discouraged in any way possible, because HMRC as an MP and try to get the same sweetheart the rest of us who do pay our taxes have to support deal that Google got only a couple of years ago,” those who do not, so I do not have a problem with the 1217 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1218 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review [Peter Dowd] I do not want to take much time, and everything has already been said today. It is important not just that the concept of clamping down on tax avoidance. Retrospection letter of the report and all its recommendations are put has been used since the second world war, but it has in place, but that the spirit of the report in relation to always been commensurate with the needs of the nation. closed cases and so on is taken into account, and I do not want to get into a big argument about retrospection, specifically the recommendation for a £30,000, 10-year but the issue is there. An excellent document from the limit, which the Government rejected. House of Commons Library sets it out perfectly reasonably, The Government should have a word—I put it as gently and people have to take their own view. as that—with HMRC about people’s perception of how I completely accept that many people took advice it has behaved. It is important for Ministers to get from a variety of organisations and that advice was that view across to HMRC. As the hon. Member for wrong. I do not dispute that. These enablers ripped Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) people off. Their scams were like other scams we have said, it is about balance. We need balance in dealing had, whether it is the recent leasehold scam, the payment with this matter, and I hope the Government can get protection insurance scam, or the endowment mortgage that balance right. scam. These scams have existed for a long time, as the south sea bubble scam shows. They go back an awfully 3.11 pm long time— The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): I congratulate my right hon. Friends the Members for Mr David Davis: Before my time. Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) and the hon. Member for Brentford Peter Dowd: Precisely—before the right hon. Gentleman and Isleworth (Ruth Cadbury) for securing this debate was a Member, although not much before, I imagine. today, and I thank colleagues on both sides of the House for their contributions. It is a measure of the Bob Stewart: It might be dangerous to intervene here, effect they perceive on their constituents that, in these but I am quite sure that a lot of these financial analysts circumstances, they are here in such numbers. and chartered accounts honestly thought they were The outbreak of covid-19 has created extraordinary doing the right thing and everything was legal. They circumstances, and it is important to say up front that acted in good faith. I do not suppose that all of them the Government are keeping the situation under close were slightly dodgy. review, as elsewhere, and will take a proportionate and reasonable approach to anyone covered by the loan Peter Dowd: Well, that is a view. The hon. Member charge who is unable to file their return by 30 September. for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) talked about That date has been moved back to give people enough time how something that looks too good to be true is too to respond to the Morse report and its recommendations, good to be true. People have to take that on board when but the Government will insist that HMRC takes a they become in involved in such schemes, as lots of proportionate and reasonable approach to anyone covered people have, right across the spectrum, from those who by the loan charge who is unable to file their return by are pretty wealthy all the way down to people who earn 30 September. quite small sums. Anyone who believes they may be affected by this It is the responsibility of this House to ensure that should please contact HMRC as soon as possible. Equally, people are treated fairly. I do not want to get into the we must recognise that HMRC’s workforce may well be argument about whether HMRC has treated people affected by the outbreak. Where appropriate, HMRC fairly or unfairly. I accept in good faith what Members has made it clear that it will take steps to support have said today about how their constituents have been anyone who has been disadvantaged by delays at its end treated. That has to be set in the context of the issue of as a result of covid-19. As the House will know, HMRC HMRC’s resources. A third of its staff have gone since has already established a helpline to support any businesses cuts in 2005 and later in 2010. Any increases in the cash and individuals affected. The hon. Member for Bootle amounts available to HMRC for its running have, in (Peter Dowd) raised that issue, and I can confirm the effect, been blocked. That is a factor that we must take helpline has now been in place for some time and has an into account as well. expert and supportive staff behind it. The primary issue here is whether the enablers—the As this debate has made clear, the loan charge, and people everybody has talked about today—are getting with it the wider issue of using disguised remuneration away scot-free. I suspect that the Minister will tell us the schemes to avoid tax, has been the subject of public extent of the Government’s and HMRC’s action to concern and considerable controversy. Let us be clear tackle these enablers, but I suspect that it will not be that tax is never popular, and my colleagues and I enough and the Government will have to sharpen up recognise the strength of feeling and sympathise with their footwork. those who may be subject to the charge. Today’s motion Whether HMRC has been aggressive is, again, a reflects some of the arguments and concerns expressed moot point. However, we know some of the enablers by colleagues that the loan charge is retrospective and have also been incredibly aggressive. The Rangers FC unjust and that the law was not settled, it is claimed, issue trundled on for the best part of 13 years, with until 2017. If I may, I will deal with each of those enablers—the accountants and lawyers—taking it right to charges in turn. the line and beyond, so let us not pretend there was not First, however, we need to be clear what we are aggression from those who were attempting to push and talking about. Disguised remuneration is a term of push the boundaries, hence the reason for commensurate art—it is a fancy term—but the House should be under potential retrospective legislation. no illusion as to what it amounts to. Such schemes are a 1219 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1220 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review form of contrived tax avoidance in which people are which tax is typically chargeable. They were not designed paid in the form of a loan with no interest and no to be paid back. They were employment income in intention or requirement to pay the loan back. disguise, so they were subject to tax.

Dr Lewis: If it were so clear and the schemes were so Sir Edward Davey: Will the Minister set out which contrived, why did HMRC not point that out to people piece of legislation, before the loan charge legislation, at an early stage, so that they would have seen what they saw loans as income? were letting themselves become vulnerable to? Jesse Norman: I am not in a position to take the right Jesse Norman: I thank my right hon. Friend for the hon. Gentleman through the legal arguments, and I do question. All he needs to do is attend to the detail of the not need to, because, as I have said, they have been Morse report, in which Sir Amyas Morse goes through described in detail by Sir Amyas Morse in his review the efforts made at that time, before and after 2010, in which, of course, is based, as my remarks would not be, some detail. That is the basis for the judgment that he on a detailed interrogation with tax experts on all the reaches about the appropriate relief. specific issues behind it. I do not think we have any sensible reason—no one has in fact offered one—for Chris Stephens: The Morse review also suggests that disagreeing at length or in any detail with his conclusion. the main people responsible were the creators of such schemes, who do not seem to be getting chased up to the Christian Matheson: The Minister knows that I have same extent as those who appear to be the victims of the all the time in the world for him, but nobody in this schemes. House disputes the fact that it was tax avoidance and that loopholes needed to be closed. He is spending his Jesse Norman: I take it that the hon Gentleman time explaining why they were avoidance schemes, but rightly refers to the enablers and promoters of such schemes. hon. Members understand that. It is the question of As he knows, I take that extremely seriously, and I have retrospection and unfairness that is exercising us in insisted on that point ever since I became Financial this debate. Secretary. I will say more about that shortly. I return to the point that such schemes were contrived Jesse Norman: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman, tax avoidance schemes that were typically run through but if I may say so, I do not think that has been true. an offshore vehicle. A person would receive a monthly I think the conclusion colleagues have been pushing in amount of pay, often deliberately set at or around the this debate is that they disapprove thoroughly of tax level of the personal allowance to maximise the tax avoidance, and their view is that this is not tax avoidance avoided, and above the national insurance lower earnings in many cases. If they accept that this is tax avoidance limit, so as to qualify the person concerned for the and that the issue is merely as to the remedy, that is of national insurance contributions required to receive a course a slightly different position, and one that I am state pension. Of course, that did not reflect the person happy to respond to. in question’strue earnings because, alongside that payment, I just want to make it clear that this is a form of tax they would receive a further top-up payment described avoidance. It goes to the wider issue as to whether as a loan. In many cases, the top-up payment far people should have known what it was. The point is that exceeded—often by a large multiple—the salary element it is tax avoidance, and it costs the Exchequer hundreds declared for tax purposes. of millions of pounds a year. That has two effects: it Those facts are not genuinely in doubt, and all Members deprives public services of the money they need to who have taken part in the debate have rightly condemned operate; and it forces other taxpayers to pay more to tax avoidance, but I put them on the record again make up the shortfall. because they highlight how contrived that form of tax The purpose of the loan charge was to combat this avoidance typically was. They also go to the root of the form of abusive tax avoidance. The loan charge was problem. introduced as a new measure in 2017. Following a My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice public campaign last year, we asked Sir Amyas Morse, and Howden raised the issue of thesauruses and dictionary as has been noted, to conduct a review of whether it was definitions. Let me remind him of the difference between an appropriate policy response to the use of the disguised a dictionary definition and a thesaurus. A thesaurus remuneration scheme. He had full control of the review’s gives an alternate word of supposedly the same meaning. management and recommendations. He took evidence A dictionary definition tries to explain exactly what it is from a very wide range of individuals affected, and he that is being talked about. spoke to interest groups, MPs, tax specialists and many other stakeholders. The dictionary definition of a real loan is, Again, the facts are not in doubt. Sir Amyas Morse, “an amount of money that is borrowed…and has to be paid back”. as has been recognised by colleagues today,is an individual of huge experience and great independence of mind, That accords with our natural experience, as hon. Members and he is widely respected across the House. He was will discover if they try to take out a business loan from independent in his review, and he was given wide scope a bank and not pay it back. If they try to take out a in expert support. He produced a thorough and exacting mortgage and not pay it back, they will find the same to piece of work—a 76-page, 30,000-word report—that drew be true. on over 700 individual testimonies and impact statements, Those loans, however, were not designed to be paid and which painstakingly worked through the issues back. They were rather different from loans that might before recommending notable changes to the policy, be made to employees that then get written off, on including substantial carve-outs as to who was affected. 1221 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 Loan Charge 2019: 1222 Sir Amyas Morse Review Sir Amyas Morse Review [Jesse Norman] share of taxes. People are responsible for their own tax affairs. Real loans get repaid; if someone offered you a Sir Amyas was clinical and at times unsparing in his loan for which no repayment, no tax and no interest criticisms, including of Her Majesty’s Revenue and was due, it would probably be too good to be true.” Customs and, be it said, of the Loan Charge Action And so it is. Group. All but one of these recommendations were The numbers seem to bear that out. More than accepted by the Government. 99.8% of the tax-paying population have never used a Among those recommendations were two to which I scheme. Even among the freelance population, the take-up want to draw the House’s particular attention. The first has been only 2.5%. It is notable that Sir Amyas Morse is Sir Amyas’s insistence, as we have heard across the was clear that he supported the essential purpose of the House today, on the need for the Government to go loan charge and that it should remain in force. further in going after and bringing to justice people We have heard a lot about how the law was not settled who enable or promote tax avoidance schemes. in 2017. Again, as I said, I can do no better than refer I am therefore delighted that, as part of the Budget colleagues to section A of the Morse review, which documentation we have produced today,we have published carefully reconstructs the history of the past 20 years of a policy document on “Tackling promoters of mass- disguised remuneration. marketed tax avoidance schemes”, and I draw the attention Let me quickly turn to the many excellent contributions of all colleagues to it. It is a sober and thorough piece of that have been made. I will start with the excellent work that looks at lots of different approaches as part contribution made as a point of order by my right hon. of an integrated strategy. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond The other thing that Sir Amyas pointed to—again, I Swayne), who pointed out the excellence of my book on think rightly, but also picking up on a widely anticipated Adam Smith—I thank him for that, although I defer to and understood gap—is the importance of raising standards the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale in the tax advice market. Again, I am pleased to say Hanvey), as Kirkcaldy was, of course, Smith’s home that, as part of the Budget documentation, we have town. My right hon. Friend the Member for New published a call for evidence on this very topic, “Raising Forest West will recall—he taught economics so he standards in the tax advice market”. I encourage all must know about these things—that Smith not only set colleagues and their constituents to contribute to that out the ideals of a well-functioning tax system, which approach. we all aspire to achieve, but was, for the last 12 years of his life, a practising commissioner of customs, attempting Ruth Cadbury: I thank the right hon. Member for the to wrestle with an ever-evolving customs market and points he is making about advice and information. seeking to extract duty and tax due, and rightly so. However, I again come back to the fact that the low-paid and the averagely-paid—generally public sector workers— I would like to touch on the statesmanlike comments are still being sold these schemes. They cannot be paid of the hon. Member for Bootle, the shadow Chief through a personal services company, but they need to Secretary,which perhaps reflected his imminent expectation work freelance and locum, and this is still happening to of taking my seat on this side of the aisle. He recognised them. If the Government see these schemes as contrived, that what people do not pay in tax due, someone else why are they not doing more to stop the mass marketing must. He is right about that. He noticed that if it looks of them, such as by making the promoters personally too good to be true, it probably is. He is right to focus, liable for defeated schemes and similar? as others have, on the enablers and promoters. Jesse Norman: I have in my hand a detailed document John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): Will the Minister give designed to address this very issue. It goes through a way? whole range of different approaches and integrates them into a strategy. I would be delighted to have any Jesse Norman: I have half a minute left. The right input that she would like to make about other ways in hon. Gentleman has only just arrived, so it is a little which that can be improved and developed. We work on impertinent to raise a question at this point. the basis of the law as it presently stands, and which we It is important that we focus on the centrality of the have inherited. It is itself the result of previous Parliaments, claim. Sir Amyas Morse has looked at it, and he has including of course the parliamentary consideration of attempted to find a Jupiterian way through complicated the loan charge. We have to work with the hand we have tax issues and to deal, with equity, with the different got, and improve it as fast and as comprehensively as interests and parties involved. I think he has succeeded, we can. which is why the Government, comprehensively, with I will now address the motion directly and then, in one exception, have accepted his conclusions. the limited time I have, turn to the comments that have been made. Is the loan charge retrospective? Again, I 3.28 pm think it is clear that it is not. It was introduced as a new Mr David Davis: These occasions often show the measure in 2017. It taxes a loan outstanding at a future House at its best, and that is certainly true today. date. It does not change any law previously on the I start by paying tribute to the Loan Charge Action statute book. Group, the all-party group—particularly its chairman—and It has been asked why the loan charge was introduced. all who have contributed in the debate, which has been In the words of Sir Amyas Morse, it excellent, albeit slightly one way in terms of its emphasis. “offers an expedited means of collecting tax that is due”. Why is that? Because this is a matter of justice, not Is the loan charge unjust? Again, I would suggest not. If technicalities. It is a story of unclear law not very one asks the average man or woman in this country, I competently clarified in 2011 and then rewritten in think they would say, “Everyone should pay their fair 2017. It is a story of HMRCallowing the real villains—the 1223 Loan Charge 2019: 19 MARCH 2020 1224 Sir Amyas Morse Review employers and advisers who forced people into this Horizon Settlement: position—to carry on getting away with that, and of Future Governance of Post Office Ltd HMRC failing to intervene during that period to stop them. 3.30 pm I am afraid the Morse review is wrong. That was brilliantly exposed by the chairman of the all-party Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I beg to group. There is, in truth, only one answer, but before I move, come to it, I have 40 seconds, so I will say one other That this House has considered Horizon settlement and future thing to those on the Treasury Bench and the Opposition governance of Post Office Ltd. Front Bench. All of us in this House believe in fair Innocent people jailed; individuals having their good taxation. We all believe that we should pay our dues. name and livelihoods taken away from them; the full When you are doing deals with Vodafone and Google, use of the state and its finances to persecute individuals. where they pay from 10% down to 4%, do not turn Those are all characteristics of a totalitarian or police round to an ordinary locum nurse and say, “It’s too state. But that is exactly what we have seen in the good to be true. You should have known.” 21st century in the way the Government and the Post Office have dealt with sub-postmasters and their use of Jesse Norman: Will my right hon. Friend give way? the Horizon system. The Horizon system was the biggest non-military IT project in Europe. It cost over £1 billion Mr Davis: No, I will not. I only have seconds. to install and affected 18,000 post offices throughout There is only one answer in this debate. I am afraid the UK. that Amyas Morse is wrong. The answer is laid out in Before I go on, I would like to pay tribute to some our motion. HMRC should cease action on all cases individuals who I have been working long and hard before July 2017, and then justice will be done. with on this campaign. The first is the hon. Member for Question put and agreed to. North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), who cannot Resolved, be here today because, unfortunately, a family member is ill and he has had to self-isolate. He has been with me That this House believes that the Loan Charge is an unjust and retrospective tax; notes that the law on the Loan Charge was not from the start in trying to get justice for sub-postmasters, settled until 2017; and calls on HMRC to cease action on loans and I will refer to some of his work later. He would like paid before 2017. to have been here and sends his apologies; that he is not here does not mean that he is not interested in the outcome. I also thank James Arbuthnot, the former Member for North East Hampshire, who, despite being moved to God’s waiting room further along the corridor, has still consistently pressed the case for justice for sub-postmasters. I pay tribute to the work that he has done in the past and is doing now. I want to mention two other individuals. Alan Bates is the lead claimant in the class action. Alan has been a stalwart and stuck by his principles—knowing, as he said, that “I am right and I am going to make sure we get the truth out.” The other person is someone who has very helpfully shone a spotlight on the issue, and has spent many hours sitting through long court cases: Nick Wallis is a journalist who has kept this story in the public domain. Alan and Nick both deserve credit for their continued actions now and their work in the past. I first came to be involved in the issue when a constituent came to see me in my surgery. That constituent was Tom Brown. Tom, likemanyother thousands of sub-postmasters, was a hard-working and well-respected individual. He had won awards from the Post Office for fighting off an armed robber in his post office, but because of the introduction of the Horizon system, he was accused of stealing £84,000 from the Post Office. Even though he said and demonstrated that that was not the case, the Post Office took him to court, and he went through the agonyof being publicly shamed in his local community—we must remember that a lot of these individuals are the stalwarts of their local communities. Tom went to Newcastle Crown court, and on the day of the trial the Post Office withdrew the case, but the damage had already been done. His good name had been ruined, and he had lost—because he had had to go bankrupt—in excess of nearly half a million pounds in the form of his business, the bungalow that he had bought for his retirement and some investment properties. 1225 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1226 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd [Mr Kevan Jones] that the Post Office had the forensic accountants Second Sight take a look, and it discovered exactly what the He now lives with his son in social housing in South hon. Gentleman has just outlined. But what does the Stanley. The man who should have had a nice retirement, Post Office do? It set up a mediation service, but still and who was well respected in his community, has been denied that there was any problem, even though the completely ruined and is destitute. Despite that—he evidence was there. came to see me last week—he is an individual who still As for the operator, Fujitsu, it knew that there were has integrity, because he has always insisted that he is glitches. Indeed, I have to say that it is as guilty of the innocent of what he was accused of, and he has not cover-up as the Post Office. I cannot comment on been alone. Despite that—he came to see me last week— the judgment—I think the judge has possibly referred he is an individual who still has integrity, because he has the case to the Crown Prosecution Service to get its always insisted that he is innocent of what he was involvement, so I do not really want to go into the accused of, and he has not been alone. The estimate detail—but Fujitsu has a lot to answer for. from the class action that has been taken is 555, and there are many others, some unfortunately who have John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): My right hon. Friend is died since the case was taken forward. outlining a litany of maladministration at the very least. The scandal of this—what makes me so angry and Have any individuals at management level in either at why I have persistently hung on to the campaign—is Post Office Ltd or Fujitsu ever been held accountable that the Post Office knew all along that the Horizon for this? system was flawed. Mr Jones: I shall come to that, which is a very good Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I point. The complete opposite: most have been promoted congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing this or, in one case, appointed as a Government adviser important debate. Is not the other scandal in this that when she left the Post Office. the courts time and again failed the victims? In the That denial then led the postmasters to get the group prosecutions that were taken forward by the Post Office, action together, with 555 taking the Post Office to the courts found in favour of the Post Office, despite it court. The Post Office was still denying that there was a being unable to properly evidence its case. It is absolutely problem when it went into court; indeed, its consistent wrong. We must stand up for David versus Goliath in approach has been to deny any type of liability. our courts. Let me turn to the role of the Post Office and that of Mr Jones: I will come back to that, which is something Government. The Post Office is an arm’s length body that I think my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston from Government, but the sole shareholder is the upon Hull East (Karl Turner) will refer to in his Government. They have a shareholder representative contribution. on the board. Despite that, millions of pounds of The board minutes from 1999 show that the Post public money are spent every year. In fact, it is a Office knew there were bugs in the system and software nationalised company, whether we like it or not. problems. It denied all the way through that, for example, But we are unable, as parliamentarians, to scrutinise the amounts that sub-postmasters inputted could be the Post Office. For example, in spite of what it knew, it changed. That was just not true. It could be remotely is estimated that the Post Office spent between £100 million done, and the hon. Member for North West Leicestershire and £120 million defending the indefensible in court. and his constituent Mr Rudkin, who visited the That was basically designed to whittle down the case, so headquarters where the data was being stored, proved that the other side ran out of money. Trying to scrutinise that. In classic style, when he raised that the Post Office the Post Office and get it to account for that is virtually denied that he had ever visited the data centre in the impossible. When I have asked parliamentary questions, first place, until he proved that he had. It was just one they are referred to the Post Office. I will come on to the cover-up after another. The denial culture in the Post role of Ministers, but I am sorry that the right hon. Office was described by Judge Fraser, in what I thought Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Sir Edward Davey) was a very good his judgment, as is no longer in his place, because I would have liked him “the 21st century equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat”, to answer for his role—or lack of role—when he was the Minister. because the evidence was there all the way through. There is no way that anyone who took an objective look The Post Office falls somewhere between a private at the system, in terms of the Post Office or Fujitsu, the company and a public company, but then there are the contractor, could argue that it was perfect. individuals involved, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (John Spellar) said. Paula Vennells was the chief Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): It has also executive of the Post Office. She left last year. Obviously, come to light that the people who were fixing the system as a board member she knew what was going on, from behind the scenes, as the right hon. Gentleman including the strategy in the court case and the bugs in mentioned, and who could go in and balance the tills as the system. What happened? She got a CBE in the new it were, were incentivised and paid to be speedy and year’s honours list for services to the Post Office. That is quickly fix the issues, which made a lot of these cases just rubbing salt into the wounds of these innocent even worse, so that balances that were already poor got people. There is a case for her having that honour even worse. removed, and I would like to know how she got it in the first place when the court case is ongoing. Added to Mr Jones: It was even worse than that: for many years that, she is now chair of Imperial College Healthcare the Post Office denied that that could ever be done. It NHS Trust. Again, I would like to know why and what was only in 2011, after campaigning by me and others, due diligence was done on her as an individual. 1227 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1228 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): I congratulate the right need full scrutiny. I would love to see whether the hon. Gentleman on his excellent speech and his stoical Minister can shed some light on what this organisation determination in trying to get to the bottom of this. actually is. Is he also aware that the head of Fujitsu UK is now Then we come to the role of Ministers. I have already working in the Cabinet Office? mentioned the right hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton, but Jo Swinson, Claire Perry and the Minister’s Mr Jones: I do not know whether the hon. Lady has immediate predecessor the hon. Member for Rochester read my speech, but I am just coming on to the Cabinet and Strood (Kelly Tolhurst) were all involved. They all Office, because lo and behold, guess where Paula Vennells completely believed what they were being told by the also ended up? She was a non-executive member of the Post Office, never asked any questions about how public Cabinet Office. I am told that she was removed from money was being spent and allowed the Post Office to that post yesterday; I do not know whether it was continue what it has been doing. The Government because of this debate. I welcome that, but why is cannot say that they never knew about this, because someone who has overseen this absolute scandal still when the new Government came to power in 2010, allowed to hold public positions? Worse than that, she myself, James Arbuthnot and the hon. Member for is a priest. I respect those who have religious faith, and North West Leicestershire went to see Oliver Letwin, she does, but the way that she has treated these people then a Cabinet Office Minister, to put our case to him. cannot be described as very Christian—she certainly He had sympathy for it, because he had a similar case in would not pass the good Samaritan test, given the way his constituency.What happened to that? Nothing happened she has ignored their pleas. I hope she thinks about at all. Clearly there is an issue that the Government people like Tom, who have lost their livelihoods and are cannot hide from it. now living in social housing because of her actions. It angers me that these individuals have gone scot-free, Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) and they need to be answerable for their actions. (Lab): My right hon. Friend is making an excellent case. I want to raise with him this issue about MPs not being John Spellar: Maybe she fulfils the role of the Pharisee able to find out what happened. In the Hillsborough in that parable. Does this not also speak to a deeper inquiry, the Bishop of Liverpool talked about problem in our society, where relentlessly, time after time, the great and the good look after each other and “The patronising disposition of unaccountable power”. hand out these positions to each other, irrespective of This is a classic case of exactly that. whether they have been successful or a massive failure? I also want to put on the record how grateful my We see that particularly in the health service, where constituent Janet Skinner is that MPs such as my right people move from job to job, taking payments each hon. Friend and others have pursued this matter for time they go and leaving catastrophic failures. Is this many years to try to get justice for the people involved. not a deeper failure in the system? Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend for that. She uses a Mr Jones: It is, but how could somebody be given a great description. CBE when this scandal was out there? How could We then come on to the issue of compensation. somebody be appointed to the non-executive board of the Cabinet Office and a healthcare trust, given what is Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): The right hon. coming out of this court case? I find that remarkable. Gentleman mentioned the issue of Ministers. Of course Then there is the role of Government. When the right the Post Office has a non-executive director appointed hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton was the Minister, by the Government. One must assume that that non- he said that the Post Office executive director is reporting to Ministers. Would that “continues to express full confidence in the integrity and robustness not be an interesting topic for the inquiry? of the Horizon system and also categorically states that there is no remote access to the system or to individual branch terminals Mr Jones: Yes, and I was going come on to that, which would allow accounting records to be manipulated in because I would love to know who those non-executive any way.” directors have been over the years and what they said to That is despite a board minute of 2009 which said that Ministers. If I had been the Minister, I would have had remote access was possible. What his role in it was I do that person in and scrutinised what was going on, as I not know, but he clearly did not ask many searching am sure the right hon. Gentleman would. That would questions of the Post Office. certainly have applied in the past few months, given the I turn to how we scrutinise the Post Office. I have hundreds of millions of pounds that have been spent tabled numerous written parliamentary questions, but defending the indefensible. because the Post Office is an arm’s length body, the In December, the Post Office agreed a settlement Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy worth £57 million. Unfortunately, most of that has been shift them over to the Post Office—it is at arm’s length, swallowed up in the fees and the after-the-event insurance and therefore it is nothing to do with the Department. that the litigants had to afford. I do not criticise the There is a question here about how we can scrutinise the lawyers—the people who funded this—because without Post Office. This week, I asked a question about what them we would not have got justice, but that leaves the complex case review team in the Post Office is. My about £15,000 for each of the successful people in the able assistant rang BEIS and asked, “What is it?” BEIS class action. We must recall that my constituent has lost did not even know about it. The parliamentary question more than half a million pounds, and the Post Office is has now been given to the Ministry of Justice, but it settling cases outside this settlement for £300,000. What does not know what that team is. I know that last week has to happen now is that a scheme has to be set up to two cases were settled out of court, each for £300,000. compensate individuals properly. We must remember This is public money we are talking about here, and we that £15 million of those costs were legal costs for 1229 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1230 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd [Mr Kevan Jones] a response in Prime Minister’s questions on 26 February, the Prime Minister indicated that that might be the case, pursuing the case, and £4 million of that is VAT, which calling the issue a “scandal”. In response to Lord Arbuthnot will go straight back to the Government. Over the time in the other place on 5 March, Lord Callanan said that that Paula Vennells was at the Post Office, she earned the issue would be under consideration. We need as a nearly £5 million, which just shows how the individuals matter of urgency an inquiry to cover not just what has who have been affected are not having happy retirements gone on but how we can improve the situation for the and peace of mind, but have been put through this future, and it has to be independent of Government. system. The issue is clear to me: the figures that are The Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee being paid out now privately need a scheme. is looking into the matter, and I give credit to it for I wish to make a couple of further points before doing that, but we need some recommendations about I finish. The first is that the National Federation what went on in the past. I am sorry, but as my right of SubPostmasters needs winding up now. It is not hon. Friend the Member for Warley said, we need to independent, nobody joins it—sub-postmasters are auto- expose who did what. I have to say, if in some cases enrolled. It is basically an arm of the Post Office and is what I would argue was criminal activity took place, paid for by the Post Office. Surely if it is going to be people have to be prosecuted. Given their involvement, an independent voice for sub-postmasters, it should they certainly need to be removed from any public be that. bodies on which they currently serve. The Minister’s predecessors have not been good at If anyone saw the Business, Energy and Industrial looking into this issue. They have not asked the right Strategy Committee hearing last week, they will have questions—they have not asked questions of their officials seen the chief executive, who could not answer on how or the Post Office. The Minister now has a chance to many of his members had been affected by Horizon or put this right. I know that he spoke to Alan Bates what his organisation had done about it. I will tell the yesterday, and I know that he is hiding behind the court House exactly what it did: nothing. In Tom Brown’s case in terms of compensation—his officials are saying case it just said that the Post Office must be right. The that they cannot get any more. I have to say: please do organisation is a sham and it needs to be wound up not do that. It is now time for bold action. If we do not now. We need an independent organisation to represent take action, this injustice will continue. sub-postmasters—including through the recognition of the Communication Workers Union, which some people Let me finish with this: my constituent Tom Brown are members of—that can actually be an independent should be enjoying a happy, well-funded retirement, but voice for sub-postmasters. he is not. He is still a proud man, as I said—he is a man who has not lost his dignity—but he is living in social The other thing that I, the hon. Member for North housing with his son, and that is not his fault; it is down West Leicestershire and James Arbuthnot did was to to people such as Paula Vennells and the board at the take some cases to the Criminal Cases Review Commission, Post Office, and the failure and cover-ups that have because there are people who have been found guilty been perpetrated by individuals. The Government, who and in some cases jailed unfairly. I pay tribute to that should have stood up for him, have turned a blind eye. body, which took the issue seriously and took on a number of cases. It has stayed those cases—quite rightly,in Several hon. Members rose— my opinion—until the outcome of the civil litigation. It is important that those cases are now moved on and Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): Order. considered, because there are miscarriages of justice in It will be obvious that we have just over an hour left for some of those cases that need to be put right very this debate, which is not long. I hope that we can quickly. manage without a time limit, and we will if everyone The right of the Post Office to take forward its own takes about five to six minutes. That does not mean prosecutions needs to be removed. This issue goes back seven to eight minutes. many centuries in the Post Office’s history. When Tom Brown asked whether he could get the police or the 3.55 pm Crown Prosecution Service involved in looking at the Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I will try to complete evidence against him, he was told no. Likewise, it was my contribution in even less than five or six minutes, the same for everyone else. Removing that right is Madam Deputy Speaker. something that the Government could do straight away, because there is no adequate oversight of how cases are The right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) being prosecuted. In Judge Fraser’s summing up, he has given a comprehensive explanation of the background described the contract and the way in which the Post to this case, and many of us taking part in this debate Office acted as will be familiar with it. We have met constituents whose lives have been destroyed, which is not too strong a “capricious or arbitrary ways which would not be unfamiliar to a word to use. mid-Victorian factory-owner”, I have six constituents who have been affected. They and said that the Post Office appears to are decent, honest, hard-working individuals—indeed, “conduct itself as though it is answerable only to itself.” they are public servants—but their lives have been wrecked. Some have lost their homes, and some now have a That is the case: it was answerable only to itself, with criminal conviction. Surely the Post Office will recognise little or no insight in terms of oversight from Government. that these people have not become criminals overnight. Let me say what needs to be put right now. I have Why were no questions asked? During my 10 years in already mentioned that compensation needs to be put the House I have attended numerous debates on the in place. We now need a full independent inquiry, and in issue and, to be absolutely honest, and as the right hon. 1231 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1232 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Gentleman has said, Ministers have tried to wash their a firm of criminal solicitors. It was there that I met hands of it. They stood back when clear injustices were Janet Skinner, who is a constituent of my hon. Friend the being ignored. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana As Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance has said that, Johnson). Janet Skinner was prosecuted by the Post Office given the tyrannical conduct of the Post Office over the for dishonesty—theft, fraud and other related offences. years, it had no alternative but to seek litigation. Scores I took Janet Skinner’s instructions. It was a very brief of postmasters contacted the Post Office to tell it of encounter, from memory. It was probably a conference discrepancies. They were not trying to hide them. Their that would have lasted no more than 20 minutes, but I actions were hardly those of someone deliberately engaging remember her instructions and, indeed, she has reminded in fraudulent activity. me of them since. She could not understand why she The judge was scathing in his remarks about the Post was being accused of dishonesty. When she explained Office, and rightly so. The Post Office relied heavily on the situation to me, it was clear that what she had section 12, clause 12, of its contract with the sub- committed, if anything, was the offence of false accounting. postmasters. The judge rightly drew attention to that. Why? Because when her books did not balance, she The clause states: would ring the helpline and it would tell her—and other sub-postmasters and mistresses—off the record, “The Subpostmaster is responsible for all losses caused through his own negligence, carelessness or error, and also for losses of all “You just need to make the books balance.” Effectively, kinds caused by his Assistants. Deficiencies due to such losses they were told to make up numbers. The helpline said, must be made good without delay.” “Put the information in, then you can close the system Yet the judge found: down for the night and trade the next day.” That was utterly disgusting. “It is not for a Subpostmaster to demonstrate that there was no negligence, carelessness or error on his or her part. It is for the My analogy is that it is like being trapped in a Post Office to demonstrate that there is. It is only if the Post burning building. You ring the emergency services, you Office can demonstrate that there is a loss which falls within the explain the situation and you are advised to smash a scope of the clause, that it is entitled to rely upon the clause”. window to escape the building. Once you have, you are As has been mentioned, it is staggering that Fujitsu eventually prosecuted for criminal damage. That is the could access a sub-postmaster’s account without his or scenario. It is not a perfect analogy, certainly not for a her knowledge. That left it wide open—though one criminal lawyer, because there is an inbuilt defence in hopes that this was not the case—to others to interfere criminal damage of reasonable excuse. with the account entries. It is perfectly obvious that Horizon is not fit for Janet Skinner was of good character, with no previous purpose. The attitude of the Post Office is a scandal and convictions. She reminded me recently that she had a disgrace. As I have said, successive Ministers have never even had so much as a parking ticket to her name. sought to wash their hands of this. Yes, the Post Office But if she had sat down with a probation officer for is an arm’s length body, but, as has been said, the pre-sentence report, it was clear it would not be a good Government cannot escape their share of responsibility. one. Why? Because she would have said, “I didn’t do Circumstances have changed. Anyone who has read the anything.” When she was asked if she was sorry, she judge’s remarks cannot avoid acknowledging that they would have said, “No, I am not sorry because I do not have some responsibility. We now have a new Minister think I have done anything wrong.” I did not represent in post and he has an opportunity to show some sympathy. her at the sentencing hearing as it happens, but when As with the previous debate on IR35, this is about she was sentenced, the judge would have questioned correcting an injustice, and the Government, along with whether she was likely to commit further offences because the legal process, have an opportunity to achieve that. she had admitted no culpability whatever and she was The Government should act without delay in instituting not sorry. She was not sorry because she had done a full, independent inquiry and compensate in full those nothing wrong. We now know that she should not have who have suffered. been investigated, she should not have been interviewed and she certainly should not have been prosecuted. We Financial compensation, though, can never wholly now know that she should not have pleaded guilty to recompense those whose lives have been utterly and false accounting and that she certainly should not have totally destroyed. I and, I am sure, other Members, have gone to prison for nine months. had people in our constituency surgeries who have been reduced to tears because of how the Post Office has Since I have been involved in representing victims of treated them. They have been diligent public servants this scandal, I have been contacted by other sub- for many years, and it is intolerable that they have ended postmasters, and a few days ago I received some startling up in this situation. I urge the Minister to take action on documents. In 2006, a sub-postmaster was prosecuted. this as quickly as possible. I have documents showing discussions between lawyers within the Post Office conceding that there was no theft, 3.59 pm no dishonesty, no fraud and no false accounting in this case, yet she was prosecuted. It is utterly disgusting. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): I When this person found out that these documents existed, congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for because they had been leaked to her, she asked the Post North Durham (Mr Jones) on securing this debate and Office whether they would produce the documents to on moving the motion. We have had discussions over the Criminal Cases Review Commission and she was the years about this case, which is a massive scandal, the met with aggression the likes of which I have never seen. likes of which I have not seen before. She was told that these documents were privileged and Before my election to this House in 2010, I prosecuted that if they were leaked she could be in serious trouble. and defended in criminal proceedings from my local There was bullying, aggression, and constant lies from chambers in Hull and, prior to that, I worked with the very beginning—lie after lie after lie. 1233 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1234 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd [Karl Turner] Office and, by extension, its directors and, by further extension, its Government-appointed directors must have I have read Mr Justice Fraser’s judgment—it is a been aware that the system was defective. Notwithstanding pleasure to read—and to someone reading the judgment that, for over 20 years, the Post Office stubbornly and it is clear that lies were constantly told. I am prepared to aggressively continued to assert that the system was fit accept that Ministers and Government officials were for purpose. Many innocent sub-postmasters and sub- misled from the very top of the Post Office and Fujitsu. postmistresses lost their livelihoods, some of them went What do we do now to put matters right? bankrupt, some of them were prosecuted and, indeed, some of them were sent to prison. It is an absolutely Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): Does this not scandalous tale. underline the simple fact in all of this, that the Post Office’s only consideration in all of this was to protect It is, indeed, a credit to Mr Nick Read, the new chief itself at the cost of the total injustice that so many executive of the Post Office, that his intervention helped people faced? achieve a settlement to the legal dispute last December, but that settlement cannot be the end of the matter. The Karl Turner: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I Government cannot simply regard the settlement as have described this as the most grotesque version of putting the Horizon issue to bed. As other hon. Members predatory capitalism I have ever seen. Why? Because have said, after costs are taken into account, the settlement £1 billion was invested and senior officials in the Post sums for those 500-plus litigants will be paltry. The Office and Fujitsu did everything they possibly could to Government have a duty to further compensate the protect themselves. They knew. Let us be absolutely sub-postmasters who have been so appallingly treated clear about that. They knew that there were victims who by a Government-owned company. might go to prison—or who had already gone, at that I will be brief, because I know others wish to speak, point. It is utterly disgusting. but there is a vehicle that could be used to pay that compensation. The Post Office operates a suspense Lucy Allan: I, too, have a constituent in exactly the account for unallocated money and, given the history situation the hon. Gentleman has described, who was we have heard today, I suggest there is rather a lot of 18 years old and was sent to Holloway for six months, unallocated money in the Post Office. accused of theft and failing to apologise to the grannies she was supposed to have stolen from. She has not had According to a 2015 report by Second Sight, unreconciled her name cleared. She has been waiting five years for balances for the 2014 financial year were approximately the Criminal Cases Review Commission to do that. £96 million in respect of Bank of Ireland ATMs and approximately £66 million in respect of Santander. Bank Karl Turner: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. These of Ireland and Santander are just two of approximately sub-postmasters were respected in the community. The 170 so-called client accounts operated by the Post Office. Post Office is a respected organisation that we should The question of how much has been going into the Post all be incredibly proud of, but that was part of the Office’sprofit and loss account from unreconciled balances problem. The Post Office was believed. The lies that would clearly have to be a matter for further inquiry. Ministers, officials and everyone else were told along However, it is surely a source available to repay the costs the line were believed as well. That is why only a of the claimants in these court proceedings. judge-led inquiry can possibly sort this out. We need to To summarise, the Government owe a significant know who knew what, what they knew, when they knew debt, both financial and moral, to the wronged sub- it and why they acted as they did. postmasters as a consequence of the deplorable conduct I want to say something briefly about one of those of those responsible for the direction of the Post Office, senior people in the Post Office, Paula Vennells. I do not including non-executive directors appointed by the know Paula Vennells but I do know that she apparently Government. Ministers should ensure that the debt is earned something in the region of £5 million over a discharged as quickly and as fully as possible. Although six-year period. I believe wholeheartedly that she would it is pleasing to hear assurances from Ministers that they have had a very good inkling of what was going on at recognise the Post Office needs to do more to strengthen the time. This is utterly scandalous and a judge will be its relationship with sub-postmasters and to regain public the person who can get to the bottom of it. trust, it would be even more pleasant to hear they are making arrangements to compensate the claimants as 4.9 pm quickly and as fully as possible. Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con): I, too, congratulate Finally, I fully support the calls for an independent the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) and inquiry, which the Government have a moral obligation my hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire to deliver. (Andrew Bridgen) on securing the debate. I have the privilege of representing Mr Alan Bates, who was the 4.13 pm lead claimant in the proceedings that were settled in Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab): December. If it had not been for his tenacity and that of The Post Office Horizon scandal must rank as one of others, the consequences would have been that the the most shocking and badly handled ever. Its impact wrongdoings of the Post Office and Fujitsu would have on honest, hard-working sub-postmasters has been truly gone undetected and the reputations of many hundreds devastating and life changing. Even the compensation of completely decent, innocent people would have been won by the sub-postmasters in their class action against completely destroyed without any hope of being repaired. the Post Office will do very little to replace the lost years It is clear from the judgment delivered last year by of pain, suffering and social stigma due to being classed Mr Justice Fraser that the Horizon system was, at all as criminals, when all these people set out to do was to relevant times, defective. It is also clear that the Post earn an honest living. 1235 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1236 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd One of those affected is my constituent Kamran Ashraf, had to collectively bring the action together and rely on whose wife was a sub-postmaster, and together they ran support from free solicitors to get them through the the business. Right from the beginning, using the Horizon case. The Post Office is an arm’s length organisation, software provided by the Post Office, there were shortfalls. but there seems to be no accountability for its actions, In September 2003, the Post Office carried out an audit and in this matter there seems to be no scrutiny, despite of their branch and found a shortfall of £25,000. Following it receiving public money for its functions. investigation, the Post Office prosecuted Kamran and Although the civil action may be over, the nightmare his wife, but because they had two small children, even continues for my constituent. Kamran is still trying to though they had done nothing wrong, Kamran decided get his conviction overturned. The Criminal Cases Review to plead guilty so that their children would not risk Commission board is meant to be meeting next week to both their parents being incarcerated. In February 2004, discuss what steps it will be taking; I am not sure if that he was sentenced to nine months’ imprisonment at will be going ahead, but I hope it does. He is also still Kingston crown court and, to add insult to injury, was considering further civil action, and he is not alone. fined £25,000. After having been failed by the legal system, it seems Kamran and his wife lost their business and their that justice is now finally being done, but at a very slow home and had to enter into an individual voluntary pace. arrangement to pay off creditors. Because of his conviction I therefore invite the Minister to do whatever it takes Kamran struggled to find work, and although his conviction to get justice for the sub-postmasters, and I also join the is now spent and he has found employment, he still has call for an independent, judge-led public inquiry into that stain on his reputation because his conviction has this shocking scandal. not been overturned. 4.18 pm In August 2015 Kamran happened to chance on the BBC “Panorama” TV programme, which highlighted Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): Scandals come other cases identical to his, where sub-postmasters were and scandals go, and both as a former barrister and as a prosecuted and convicted due to shortfalls in their new Member of this House, it is all too easy when we takings following an audit. Dozens of sub-postmasters see a raft of paperwork coming across our desks to scan were affected and came forward and formed an action through the details and forget that each of these scandals group called the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance, or is made up of individual cases—individual human JFSA for short. The JFSA, led by Alan Bates, brought stories—so I beg the indulgence of the House and ask a class action with a total of 557 sub-postmasters to reprise the story of Siobhan Sayer, a constituent of which was vigorously fought by the Post Office, and on mine who 14 years ago was a sub-postmistress and had 11 December 2019 the sub-postmasters were awarded trouble balancing accounts. She did not hide this issue; £57.75 million in damages. she highlighted it and asked for help—indeed, she asked for help from the Post Office. Eventually, that help My right hon. Friend the Member for North Durham came, in the form of three auditors. They did not assist (Mr Jones) is right when he says that the biggest scandal her in balancing the books. Instead, they suspended her, of all was the fact that the Post Office denied that there they accused her of theft, they searched her house, was any flaw in the system but knew all along there was asking her where she had hidden the money, and then a problem, while innocent people were sent to prison. they interrogated her to such an extent that it stopped only when she physically collapsed. But it did not end Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): One other there: they took the further step of prosecuting her, thing the Post Office must have known all along was both for theft and for false accounting. that there was this huge spike in postmasters and postmistresses being reported and prosecuted, so they That young lady was pressurised to plead guilty to did not know that they were not alone in the matter, but the lesser charge of false accounting in order to avoid a the Post Office presumably knew that all this was going prison sentence for theft. As a former barrister, I can on at scale. understand why, in the face of the seemingly impenetrable evidence of a robust system in the form of Horizon, that advice might have been given. Having pleaded Bambos Charalambous: The right hon. Gentleman is guilty, she was sentenced to 10 months’ imprisonment, absolutely right and makes an excellent point. Evidence suspended for two years, and 200 hours of community about the infallibility of the system would have led to service. That is terrible. That is a true scandal. But it is the conviction of these sub-postmasters, and that is why worse than that, because she was shamed in her community, we need to look at how to progress this further. While she was ostracised by her friends, and her mental and after the trial the Post Office chairman conceded that it emotional health was hit to such an extent that she was had got things wrong in the past, the fact was that the unable to leave her home for two years. That is the Post Office fought the action until the bitter end, and consequence of the actions and inactions of the Post that speaks volumes. Office and its servant, Fujitsu. Why did that happen? Undoubtedly, it happened Lucy Allan: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the because the Post Office did not care to believe in the way the Post Office conducted itself throughout the honesty of its own staff. It refused to believe that the litigation process was shameful in terms of trying to system could be wrong, despite its own evidence mounting grind down the claimants, so they would withdraw their up to the contrary. claim? Mr Kevan Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Bambos Charalambous: The hon. Lady is absolutely it is remarkable that there is a minute showing that the right. The Post Office seemed to have unlimited funds at Post Office board knew in 1999 that the system had its its disposal to fight this action, whereas the sub-postmasters faults? 1237 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1238 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Jerome Mayhew: It is absolutely inexplicable, and it with the awful situation of the hundreds of innocent lasted right up to the evidence heard last year by Mr Justice victims. We have heard it before and we will hear it time Fraser. As was mentioned, he said that the Post Office and again this afternoon: innocent people have lost their acted rather like the flat earth society, refusing to believe life savings and young people—men and women—have even its own facts. But there is a strong suspicion that it been jailed and then struggled to rebuild their lives went further than a refusal to believe; there was actually because of the criminal record. I have constituents in a question of dishonesty, particularly in the evidence North Norfolk who have gone through such trauma. given by Fujitsu. The learned judge expressed serious Their story is every bit as dreadful as the other cases we concerns about the veracity of that evidence and took will hear about. the very unusual step of referring it to the Director of I question whether the £58 million that has been set Public Prosecutions to consider whether criminal aside to recompense the victims will be enough. I think prosecutions should follow. we probably all agree that it will not. After the lawyers This matter was discovered only by the brave and take a large portion of that fund, what will be left? That tenacious actions of the victims themselves over a 10-year is not right. The Government must intervene, as the period, faced with unending delaying and cost-increasing main shareholder, to ensure that people are recompensed tactics by the Post Office. properly. Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): The hon. Gentleman The board of Post Office Ltd is, unquestionably, is making an excellent speech. Does he agree that sub- accountable for this fiasco. Action must be taken so postmasters and sub-postmistresses are at the heart of that board members are properly dealt with for this many local communities and not only have the respect injustice. What kind of corporate governance structures of those communities but deserve the respect of the failed to allow this to happen? Those who have been Post Office and people in authority? This whole sorry jailed and who have criminal records must have them saga shows a complete and utter lack of respect and overturned. trust. It is deeply disappointing and, as he suggests, it is I turn to the three governance issues that need to be deeply wrong. put right. Together, these issues show the failings in the organisation. My first point is about the total withdrawal Jerome Mayhew: I entirely agree. It was the very fact of the Crown network. It is an absolute necessity that that postmistresses and postmasters are at the heart of we still have a backbone of Crown post offices in this the community that made the devastation of their country. We have gone from 600 a few years ago to just reputations all the worse when they were unjustly accused 100. Why is that relevant? We are talking about systems by their employer of dishonesty and theft. like Horizon going wrong. If you have a backbone of I conclude by imploring the Government not to hide Crown post offices that work effectively, they are often a behind the corporate veil. Albeit at arm’s length, the test bed for new products and systems. They provide Post Office is a part of the Government—it is part of continuity in the network when so many franchised the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial operations come and go depending on the operators’ Strategy. It was referred to earlier as an example of success. unaccountable power, and I fully endorse that statement. Let us also remember the staff, as an organisation is It is part of a wider problem with the lack of accountability only as good as the people who work in it. It is the staff in quangos throughout our society. That leaves open who are the real holders of long-standing deep knowledge, only one sensible solution: a judge-led inquiry that has and they should act as the wider custodians of the the power to investigate who knew what and when, and network. If the Post Office had listened to its staff in the to give justice to these people and award real compensation. first place when they raised the flag, this perhaps would not have happened. There should be an immediate 4.25 pm moratorium on the programme of Crown disposals to Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con): When I spoke ensure that the Post Office’s backbone is preserved. in the Westminster Hall debate on 5 March, I said that I Secondly, a total decimation of the wider branch had a declaration of interest to make. May I declare that network is going on at the moment, and it remains a I was once a postmaster? In 2015, I was somewhat of a concern to many people—not just to the people who pin-up for the Post Office when I won postmaster of the work in the Post Office, but to many communities that year at the retail Oscars. Really, I could not sell a stamp; use it—that they and their communities are losing their it is the team who should take all the honour. I resigned branches. It is not anecdotal to suggest that the number as a director of the company that ran those post offices of permanent sites falls year after year. All the longer-term and now have no interests. I also want to make it clear that projections will see them continue to go, despite the none of my post offices or staff were affected by the scandal. Government enforcing the Post Office to not shut its However, this is a valid point to make—I wonder branches. whether anyone else in the Chamber can claim to have Let me go back to the contribution of my hon. been a postmaster at any point in their career. I think it Friend the Member for Broadland (Jerome Mayhew), gives me a unique insight and ability to comment on the eminent barrister that he is. His Fakenham this scandal. As I said in the Westminster Hall debate branch closed just around Christmas time. Replacing a secured by my hon. Friend, the brilliant Member for physical branch with a mobile post office is not adequate Telford (Lucy Allan), I will concentrate on the governance for that community. I urge the Minister to put some issues. I shall make three points. governance in place to make sure that such branches are Not only have I used the Horizon system and had not lost. I say to him, please step in to try to stop these first-hand experience of making up the losses, which is closures, because these post offices are so vital in our always a worrying moment, but I can empathise utterly communities. 1239 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1240 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd My final point goes back to the remuneration of our about the Second Sight report yet continued to support sub-postmasters.It is really quite clear that the commissions the Post Office’s case. The same happened at Lloyds that a sub-postmaster earns from running a post office with Herbert Smith Freehills. are so low that many of the franchise operations have to We must examine the system. The justice system—the have a retail offering as well. In many rural areas where judiciary, the Justice Secretary, the Civil Procedure Rule footfall is lower—and it is getting lower all the time—we Committee—must learn lessons from this. Why should need to ensure that we preserve those that remain. We it take 12 years and £40 million in legal fees to get want to have a vibrant network, so will the Minister justice? That cannot be right. We must have a justice please look into that? system that works for all.

4.32 pm 4.36 pm Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): It is a David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): As others have pleasure to speak in this important debate, and I am done, I thank the right hon. Member for North Durham grateful to the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) for securing the debate. I will try to cut my (Mr Jones) for bringing it forward and for his excellent speech to allow others to get in. speech. As we have heard, ordinary men and women throughout One thing that we do well across this House is to the UK have had their lives ruined by the scandal. stand up for David against Goliath. As many Members Two constituents have had their lives turned upside know, I have worked quite hard on similar issues in the down. I will say more about the trauma and anguish banking sector, where, again, we see that David and that they have been through later. Goliath issue. Members on both sides of the House Although the court case has concluded, it is not stand up very well against Goliath on these occasions. I enough to bring closure for those families, many of wonder whether our system does the same. whom have endured 10 years of trauma. The Justice for The issues that post offices face and the disgraceful Subpostmasters Alliance was formed in 2009, but it treatment of sub-postmasters and mistresses have been took until last December to get the settlement agreed. highlighted very well here today. My question is: why Any struggle for justice is difficult, but being put through have the courts not stood up for these people through a decade of hardship and anguish is more than many of these past 10 or 20 years? These matters have been us would have the fortitude to endure. before the court hundreds of times, yet the court has not For my constituent Jacqueline El Kasaby and her found in favour of people who have been demonstrably husband, it was too much. They were not part of innocent of the charges. That is not just what I think, the group legal action because they had already settled but what Paul Marshall, a barrister at Cornerstone through the earlier mediation. Their story is a little Chambers, says. He looked at these issues across the different from that of those who went on to pursue a banking sector and in these cases and he finds that the legal remedy in that they just could not continue the courts are structurally biased in favour of large, trusted fight. Who can blame them? Facing a bill of £36,000, brands. That cannot be right. I was always brought up the El Kasabys agreed to settle by paying the Post Office to believe that everybody could get justice. The rules of £10,000. The El Kasabys knew that they had done court require the courts to maintain a fair and level nothing wrong, but they had no fight left in them, and, playing field, yet, as we know, the courts are open to thinking they had no redress, just wanted to start to all, just like the Ritz hotel. There is a structural imbalance close that chapter in their lives. They scraped the money between a sub-postmaster or mistress when they go to together and continue to pay the mental, emotional and the courts and the phalanx of lawyers provided by the financial cost to this day. Post Office. The courts are used to suppress the truth, and that cannot be right. There have been 110 prosecutions. What of those, like the El Kasabys, who settled through mediation and were forced to pay bills that Back in 2007, in the case of the Post Office Ltd v. Lee Castleton, Judge Havery found that there was irrefutable were not theirs to settle? Given what we know now about evidence against Mr Castleton, despite the fact that the culpability of the Post Office and Fujitsu in the there was no evidence. That was just his statement; there scandal, what action will the Government take urgently was no evidence that the Post Office was in the right. to ensure justice for them? Speaking to my office last week, Jacqueline outlined the position she now faces due to We know that the Post Office knew that this was the covid-19 outbreak. She has been dealt a double going on after the Second Sight report. The prosecutions whammy in that she is losing income and struggling to stopped at one point, but of course they then carried pay a previous debt accrued as a result of the Horizon on. We have seen similar issues at Lloyds bank, which faults. As a matter of urgency, will the Government step knew back in 2007 that this stuff was going on, yet did in and ask the Post Office to pay back those settlement nothing and carried on as if it was in the right until the amounts immediately and to reopen the remediation case came to court 10 years later. It tried to discredit a cases? whistleblower and the victims. The same happened at Another constituent, Mrs Elizabeth Barnes, was part Royal Bank of Scotland. of the group legal action. She will receive a pay-out, but Wemust ask questions of the system: of the Post Office, does not know exactly how much. As other hon. Members of course, about who knew what and when—I support have said, a lot of it will be subsumed in legal fees. One the calls for a public inquiry and proper compensation—and thing is for sure: she will not be paid anywhere near of the solicitors who acted for the Post Office. There are what she deserves. Once the costs associated with funding some ethical issues here.The Solicitors Regulation Authority the action are subtracted, the claimants will receive should look into the actions of Womble Bond Dickinson, much less than they should get. Mrs Barnes has one ask which represented the Post Office in 2007. It knew of the Government: to back her and the others by 1241 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1242 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd [David Linden] way that Post Office Ltd has conducted itself throughout this process. Hundreds of sub-postmasters have been paying the funding so that she and 554 others get what accused of fraud and forced to pay back thousands of they deserve. The Government must take some pounds. They have faced bankruptcy and conviction, responsibility for cleaning up the mess. and financial compensation alone will never repair the Serious questions remain about the mess: about oversight damage caused. and what was known by whom about the ham-fisted Speaking as a former software engineer myself, I am attempts to try to cover it up. Post Office Ltd may be an upset and truly disappointed at the way in which technology arm’s length organisation, but a Government shareholder has been used as an instrument of torture. An IT sat on that board throughout the period when the deployment of this kind—one of the most expensive in scandal occurred. Why was the saga allowed to drag on the history of the United Kingdom—should have had for so long when it was apparent that the problems were users and people at its heart. It should not have been so widespread? Why was £100 million of public money turned into a living nightmare—a living nightmare that spent defending the case when it was clear that the Post continues for many sub-postmasters to this day. Office had no business continuing to prosecute innocent people? Why are the Government not taking more Many MPs have told the stories of sub-postmasters action to put things right, given all the injustices that from their constituencies. In Newcastle upon Tyne Central, have been laid bare, particularly this afternoon? sub-postmasters have suffered mental health problems All too often, the Government cite post offices as brought about by this scandal. One young woman ideal replacements for bank branches that have closed, affected was still a teenager when convicted of fraud, but Post Office Ltd struggles desperately to get sub- and she has faced unemployment and financial ruin. As postmasters to take on branches. Tollcross post office in we have heard from other right hon. and hon. Members, my constituency was closed for almost two years before she has been ostracised from her community and shunned finally reopening in December. Who can be surprised by friends and neighbours. Sadly, her case is far from that that challenge exists when sub-postmasters have unique, and I want to pay tribute to all those who have been treated as horrifically as the El Kasabys and suffered in this way. Mrs Barnes? In December, after a long trial in which the Post One other point I wish to make is the need for a Office’s heavy-handed actions against its own staff came public inquiry. In response to the hon. Member for to light, it agreed to pay a £58 million settlement to the Jarrow (Kate Osborne), the Prime Minister seemingly 557 sub-postmasters who had brought action against it. gave a commitment at PMQs to get to the bottom of In his verdict, Mr Justice Fraser stated that the Post this matter through such an inquiry, and I would expect Office treated its sub-postmasters in further details to be divulged by the Government today. “capricious or arbitrary ways which would not be unfamiliar to a I will conclude, but I want to comment that, given the mid-Victorian factory-owner.” sheer scale of this scandal, it is surprising that there has not been more media coverage. An honourable mention He also described its long-standing defence of the Horizon should be given to the freelance journalist Nick Wallis, system as who has been following the case since 2010. The “the 21st century equivalent of maintaining the earth is flat.” independent online technology outlet, The Register, also deserves commendation for continuing to cover We appear to have a Dickensian, flat earth society this story. With the campaign group up against such running our precious network of local post offices. massively well-funded organisations, this really has been On the Criminal Cases Review Commission’s review a David and Goliath story, as the hon. Member for of the convictions of those affected by the Horizon Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) mentioned. It is scandal, such an extraordinary set of circumstances right to put on record our appreciation of those who requires a bespoke response. The Government have have ensured that this story and the plight of those parroted the Post Office’sline that those wrongly convicted involved have been reported. I very much look forward must each bring their own individual appeal forward. to the Minister’s response, and I hope he takes this However, it is simply not right to require those already opportunity to start putting things right. in financial ruin to incur yet more costs in the fight to clear their name. Will the Government therefore consider 4.41 pm giving the CCRC the mechanism it needs to assess the Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): I case for a group expungement of those convicted due to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for faults with the Horizon system? North Durham (Mr Jones) and the hon. Member for This is a Government-owned company that has been North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) on securing found to have been at fault. It is therefore of the utmost this incredibly important debate. I particularly commend importance that the Government act to improve the my right hon. Friend for his work on this issue over corporate structure of the Post Office to prevent this many years and for his excellent opening remarks. Like kind of thing from ever happening again. More should him, I pay tribute to the hundreds of sub-postmasters have been done to address the issue before it was allowed who have faced unimaginable hardship as a result of to develop into the scandal it is, but all we can do now is this scandal, and I want to celebrate the work of Alan ensure that those wrongly convicted get justice and Bates, who has helped to secure some justice for 557 sub- lessons are learned. Unfortunately, the close relationship postmasters. that the Government have with the architects of Post As we have heard from Members on both sides of the Office Ltd’s vicious pursuit of sub-postmasters means House, a truly shocking number of individuals and that they are unable to create an environment that families have had their lives impacted by the shameful allows the necessary large-scale changes to happen. 1243 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 Horizon Settlement: 1244 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Future Governance of Post Office Ltd I welcome the fact that Paula Vennells, the former It is impossible to ignore the impact that the litigation chief executive of the Post Office who was so heavily process has had on the affected postmasters and their criticised by Justice Fraser, appears no longer to serve families. We have heard about Tom Brown, Janet Skinner, on the Cabinet Office board, but why on earth did Alan Bates, Kamran Ashraf, Siobhan Sayer, Elizabeth the Government allow that appointment to be made? Barnes and Jacqueline El Kasaby, among others. As my Why did they not act sooner to distance themselves hon. Friend the Member for Broadland (Jerome Mayhew) from those responsible for impacting the lives of so said, they are all real people, not just people on a many? spreadsheet or a list. They are individuals whose families As we have heard, on 26 February, the Prime Minister, have been affected, so I will not hide and I will not wash in answer to a question from my hon. Friend the Member my hands of it. It is so important that we get as much for Jarrow (Kate Osborne), appeared to commit to a done as possible, even if we cannot achieve everything full public inquiry into the Horizon scandal. When we that has been asked. hear from the Minister, I hope he will be able to provide I am glad that the Post Office has accepted that it got more detail on the timescale and scope of that inquiry. it wrong in the past on the Horizon accounting system Again, it is worth emphasising that litigation was brought and in its dealings with a number of postmasters, and to address the errors of a Government-owned company. that it has apologised. I am glad that we got a comprehensive A civil servant sits on the board of the Post Office. Its resolution to the litigation following several days of only shareholder is the Secretary of State for Business, respectful, challenging and ultimately successful mediation, Energy and Industrial Strategy, so more should have although several hon. Members have raised issues about been done to address the scandal before it was allowed where we go from here. to fester to this extent. Serious questions need to be Beyond the financial settlement, the Post Office answered about the relationship between the company committed to directly address past events for affected and the Government. postmasters, so it will shortly announce a scheme to The Government appear to be content to act as the address the historical shortfalls for postmasters who Post Office’s parliamentary organ throughout this process, were not part of the group litigation. That scheme has claiming that the December settlement was the end of been designed to offer a fair, fast and transparent means the matter. Nothing could be further from the truth for for postmasters’ historical issues to be resolved. the people who are still fighting for justice, and that is The terms of the settlement put the onus on the why we need a judge-led independent inquiry to take Post Office to implement the necessary cultural and place as soon as feasibly possible. organisational changes highlighted by the litigation, I want to say a word about the Communication which means that the company should foster a genuine Workers Union, which identified flaws in the Horizon commercial partnership with postmasters. Clearly, it system back in 2015 and has worked hard to secure the has to settle its past relationship with postmasters to inquiry. It has said that it is happy to work with us to look forward and ensure that postmasters can have ensure that it is timely and independent. So far, we have confidence in their future relationship with it. not seen any accountability for the lives and reputations It is important that the necessary support for postmasters that have been ruined. That is whysecuring this independent to operate branches successfully is available. That includes inquiry will be such a big victory for sub-postmasters, newly established area managers to deliver support on trade unions and justice. The Government failed to live the ground, an improved branch support centre to support up to their responsibility and prevent the scandal occurring. teams throughout the UK, an overhaul of postmaster I hope the Minister has listened carefully to the excellent training and, above all, a further increase to postmaster contributions from all parts of the House and will use remuneration, as we heard earlier. his influence to ensure that justice is delivered for the In terms of the management of the Post Office, there hundreds of sub-postmasters wronged and to hold those is a new chief executive officer and two new non-executive responsible to account. directors, so its leadership has changed significantly in the last few months as a result of the situation. I recognise 4.48 pm the strength of feeling surrounding the case, which is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, why the Government and I are determined to take the Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully): First of necessary steps to ensure that lessons are learned from all, I congratulate the right hon. Member for North the Horizon litigation and that past issues will not be Durham (Mr Jones) and my hon. Friend the Member repeated. for North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen), who We have talked about the independent review, which cannot be here today, for securing today’s important the Prime Minister mentioned a couple of weeks ago. debate. I thank all Members for their contributions to We are looking at the best way to do it. There will be a this excellent and heartfelt debate. further announcement as soon as possible in the very We know that the Government recognise the role near future. I know that hon. Members want progress, but of post offices, and that was articulated by my hon. I want to ensure that we get it right, rather than rushing Friend the Member for North Norfolk (Duncan Baker). into the terms of reference and other details. I want to It is so important that we make sure that we build on make sure, as I said, without hiding and without washing the network. There is no programme of closures—there have my hands of it, that we actually get something that actually been 400 new post offices in the past few years, means something to the affected postmasters. and I want to make sure that we can develop on that, although individual post offices may open or close at Lucy Allan: Does the Minister agree that the most various points. I want to make sure that I spend the rest important thing is for the wrongful convictions to be of my time covering as many as possible of the questions overturned? We cannot learn lessons and move forward that have been raised in this interesting debate. if that is not addressed. Will he please address that point? 1245 Horizon Settlement: 19 MARCH 2020 1246 Future Governance of Post Office Ltd Paul Scully: That is why the CCRC is looking at those I will write to the right hon. Member for North Durham cases and will therefore be able to refer them to the with more detail about the Post Office serious case Court of Appeal accordingly.That option is now available, review team to which he referred. BEIS has pressed which would not normally be available without the management on the issues around past prosecutions of CCRC looking at those cases. postmasters, instigated a review of the Post Office’s I look forward to speaking at the Select Committee handling of that in 2015, and supported the Second hearing that is due to be held on 24 March, covid-19 Sight mediation scheme. The chair committed to the notwithstanding. The Government continue to proactively review in 2015, but it took all the litigation for all the challenge the Post Office to restore and strengthen its facts to come to light. The suspense account was referred to; relationship with postmasters and to deliver the terms Nick Read wrote to Lord Arbuthnot recently on the subject, of the settlement. On Monday, I met the Post Office’s and we will monitor it closely. On the CCRC and the chair and CEO to seek assurance on the steps being convictions that the hon. Member for Newcastle upon taken. Alongside my officials, I will work to make sure Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) talked about, there is a that we hold them and their governance to account. meeting on 24 March to consider those cases further. In terms of future governance, the Post Office is a Toconclude, I reassure the House that the Government large, complex and diverse business, so it is important are working hand in hand with post offices, the Post that it is allowed the commercial freedom to compete in Office, postmasters and other stakeholders to ensure the challenging markets it operates in. It must, however, that there is follow-through on the lessons learned from be accountable to the Government for its decisions, as the litigation and the steps to be taken following the we have heard. Following the litigation and the subsequent settlement. I look forward to sharing with Members as settlement, the Government will monitor the Post Office soon as possible further details of the review on the closely to ensure that it delivers on its commitments to issue promised by the Prime Minister. I will leave a improving the organisational relationship with postmasters. minute for the right hon. Member for North Durham, but I thank all postmasters—those impacted by the Karl Turner: Will the Minister give way? litigation and those not—for the value that they add in providing an exceptional service to communities, people Paul Scully: I will not, because I am running out of and businesses across the UK, and for their contribution time. I stress that the Government have robust mechanisms to this case. I thank hon. Members once again for their in place to maintain oversight of the Post Office, and contributions to this excellent debate, and for their they are regularly reviewed. I have regular meetings with interest in the Post Office. its chief executive officer and chair, and the Government have increased the frequency of wider shareholder meetings to make sure that, among other things, the actions 4.58 pm arising out of the litigation can be tracked. UK Government Mr Kevan Jones: I thank all hon. and right hon. Investments, as the shareholder representative for the Members who took part in the debate. Could I say one Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, thing to the Minister? He should not just parrot what challenges the Post Office on its corporate governance his civil servants say to him. The court case did not and strategy, and on its stewardship of financial and result in a comprehensive settlement. He has admitted other resources on behalf of shareholders, as well as that the Criminal Cases Review Commission is settling holding a non-executive seat on Post Office Ltd’s board. cases that did not come before the court. His Department The Department also recently expanded the BEIS did not even know what that was when we rang it this Post Office policy team, which works closely with UKGI week. Two such cases were settled in the last month for to hold the Post Office to account at official level. We £300,000 each. If we are to get justice, we have to look have a new framework document that makes sure that at giving the same amount of compensation to those the responsibilities and accountabilities of the Post who took the court case forward. Office, BEIS and UKGI are clearly defined. We will The Minister has an opportunity here. I have been a publish that soon. It includes an open and transparent Minister, and it is a great privilege, but it is not about information-sharing agreement between the Government sitting on that Front Bench or carrying the red box; it is and the Post Office. about making a difference.The Minister has an opportunity I will meet the Communication Workers Union, which to make a real difference and put right a wrong. He has been referred to, at the end of the month to understand cannot carry on as his predecessors have done and the views of postmasters—I look forward to that—and ignore the truth. I challenge him: be brave, Minister. will be tracking progress at the highest levels of the Post Please, put this right; it is in your hands. No matter Office in quarterly ministerial meetings with the CEO, what obstruction he has from his officials, he should Nick Read. Governance arrangements between the challenge them. Government and all its arm’s length bodies are kept Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). under regular review. In the light of developments in the Post Office,the Government have considered and addressed all those arrangements. Business without Debate The right hon. Member for North Durham talked about the Post Office’s right to prosecute. This was a private prosecution; individuals and companies can bring such SITTINGS IN WESTMINSTER HALL prosecutions—they are not limited to the Post Office. (SUSPENSION) There is, however, a continuing duty to disclose material Ordered, information that comes to light that might relate to the That there shall be no sittings in Westminster Hall with safety of any conviction, so the CCRCand those convicted effect from Friday 20 March until the House otherwise orders.— will be able to take up that information. (David Rutley.) 1247 19 MARCH 2020 Gambling Advertising in Sport 1248

Gambling Advertising in Sport I commend the hon. Lady for raising this issue, and I hope she will keep going and ask these clubs to Motion made, and Question proposed, That this think again. House do now adjourn. —(David Rutley.) Carolyn Harris: I will come to that in my speech. 5 pm Shockingly, gambling advertising is also prevalent on Carolyn Harris (Swansea East) (Lab): Before we proceed, the shirts in the video game “FIFA 2020”—the country’s I should say that we have had official apologies from the best-selling video game, which is recommended for ages hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who is three and above and is a firm favourite of many young unable to be with us but sends his best wishes. children. Those children may not be aware of the nature Gambling advertising in sport has grown exponentially of the sponsors’ business, but they will be aware of the since the Gambling Act 2005, and gambling is now names, and in time, they will come to realise the type of virtually synonymous with sport. With 1.8 million at-risk company that those names represent. gamblers in the UK and approximately 500 suicides An analogy of this is my assistant’s 11-year-old son, linked to gambling every year, this is something that Thomas. He can easily identify the flags of the world should be of huge concern to every one of us. from just playing FIFA games. For obvious reasons, we Although all sport is affected by gambling, there are have not asked him to identify the logos of the gambling some frightening statistics on the relationship between companies, but children are absorbing this information gambling and football, the nation’s favourite game. every time they play these games. Half of all premier league shirts are emblazoned with It certainly feels like the gambling industry is tightening gambling-company logos, with 10 out of the 20 premier its grip on the world of sport, and especially football. league clubs having signed deals worth a combined Nearly every club now has an official gambling partner,and £69 million. Malta-based firm Betway is the biggest aside from the shirt sponsorship deals, many clubs have contributor, as a result of its £10 million deal with West betting outlets inside their stadiums, and many leagues Ham. Clubs stand to earn nearly £350 million from are sponsored by the industry. As we have learned from such deals in the coming season—that is an increase of the recent Bet365 debacle, until recently, some matches more than 10% on the 2018-19 season. were only available through betting company apps. Betting’s dominance is even more pronounced in the In recent weeks, I have written to the big six Premier championship, where 17 out of the 24 club shirts display League clubs—Liverpool, Manchester United, Manchester a betting logo, meaning that 27 of England’s top 44 clubs City, Tottenham Hotspur, Chelsea and Arsenal—to ask have secured highly profitable shirt-sponsorship deals them to meet me and colleagues from the gambling-related with the gambling industry. It frightens me how much harm all-party parliamentary group, to discuss the deals influence those logos will have on children, and on they have with gambling companies and their plans. those who are already struggling with a gambling addiction. Interestingly, Tottenham replied within 24 hours, readily I have spoken to problem gamblers who have freely told agreeing to meet, while Manchester United contacted me that they watch football merely to seek out the names my office to say they had asked the Premier League to of new companies with which they can open gambling represent them at a meeting. I have not heard back from accounts. With high-profile names further promoting the other four. I understand the importance of an these deals, gambling will be even more normalised among industry body having a presence at a meeting, but I see young people. An example is Wayne Rooney, who has no purpose in their attending in place of the clubs to been wearing the No. 32 shirt at Derby County since talk about the deals that the clubs are responsible for. January, as part of the club’s partnership with 32Red. It really worries me that vulnerable people are being Although around 80% of gambling advertising budgets groomed by the gambling industry through advertising. is now spent online, there is still a worryingly vast The Advisory Board for Safer Gambling has said that, amount of opportunities during sports programmes on by not taking action to limit the exposure of young television for vulnerable people to be bombarded with people to gambling advertising, gambling advertisements. In a recent study, Professor “we are in danger of inadvertently conducting an uncontrolled Jim Orford from the University of Birmingham noted social experiment on today’s youth, the outcome of which is that gambling logos are on screen for 70% of the time uncertain but could be significant.” during “Match of the Day” programmes in the United The sector urgently needs to adopt a more responsible Kingdom. Analysis of live sports on television found approach on advertising, particularly during sports that gambling adverts are particularly prominent during programmes, to protect children and the vulnerable. football matches. During one game between Scottish Paddy Power’s “joke” football shirt sponsorship deal teams Rangers and Celtic, gambling brands were visible last year with Huddersfield Town, which got huge publicity, on 920 occasions—that is equivalent to once every is an indictment of the current state of gambling 10 seconds. sponsorship proliferation. So, what should be done? First, of course, the industry David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): I thank the hon. itself must take action. The gambling-related harm Lady for giving way. I declare an interest, in so far as I APPG welcomes the whistle-to-whistle television ban. am the MP for Celtic football club, which is in my But for the advertising ban to be truly effective, these constituency.I must confess that I am quite uncomfortable companies should go even further, to include shirt and with both Rangers and Celtic having such sponsorship league sponsorship and digital advertising around the on their tops. In a debate in Westminster Hall earlier pitch. Otherwise, children and vulnerable adults will this week, the Minister was keen to tell us that attendance continue to be bombarded with gambling adverts. That is at football is going up. The reality is that the demographic something we hope to discuss with the Premier League tends to be young, low-income men, and the exposure clubs we have written to, who I hope to eventually get to these betting firms is not good for public health. to meet. 1249 Gambling Advertising in Sport19 MARCH 2020 Gambling Advertising in Sport 1250

[Carolyn Harris] Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): I am grateful to the Minister for giving way on that point. I appreciate the I must also mention Lewes football club, which is point he is making about gambling being a legal activity. soon to launch a charter to get other clubs to commit to One thing that struck me in the speech by my hon. ending gambling advertising in football in the same way Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), that it has. The charter urges clubs to: never accept any which was so eloquent and detailed, was the sheer, form of sponsorship or donation from the gambling overwhelming presence of gambling advertising, particularly industry; actively promote and raise awareness of the when it comes to young and vulnerable people. My son, risk of gambling addiction; lobby fellow clubs, leagues who is now at university, used to play FIFA20, or its and the Football Association to refuse to advertise or predecessors. Many children do, and the fact that this promote gambling in football; and to support people advertising is accessible to children is deeply worrying. and families affected by gambling addiction. I have had It is also worrying that it is so ubiquitous at sports a brief conversation with my local club, Swansea City, grounds, where young people are bombarded by it. Will which has gambling sponsorship but understands the the Minister say something about the way in which the issues and is actively seeking a way to sign up to that Government could scale back the level of advertising? charter when it is in a position to do so. It is also worth bearing in mind that the broadcasters Nigel Huddleston: I thank the hon. Member for his have been quite resistant to the clampdown on advertising. comments. He may be tempting me to pre-empt the Television companies have an important role to play, conclusions of the gambling review that we will be and they must start acknowledging and improving how conducting, and I will say more about it later. However, they deliver on their duty of care to viewers. that review will be forthcoming—it was in the manifesto— Given the limited progress on dealing with gambling and we will all have plenty of opportunity to look advertising, it seems that the time has come for a blanket further into these issues. I cannot say too much more on ban on gambling advertising in sport. That is what we the specifics at the moment, but I understand the point had before the Gambling Act 2005, and I am going to he is making. usurp the Minister by saying that, yes, that was Labour It is true that operators are spending far more on Government legislation, but I was not a member of that advertising. Research has indicated that operators have Government. Had I been, I would have objected to that increasedtheirspendonadvertisingandmarketingsignificantly Act in the strongest terms. in recent years. It would be easy to assume that that has In the upcoming gambling review, there is much that led to increased rates of gambling or of problem gambling, I will ask the Government to do. However, on this issue, but,accordingtotheGamblingCommission,thepercentage I urge them, as a matter of urgency, to bring an end to of those who gambled in the last year was 47%, which the highly profitable, yet highly damaging relationships was 1% less than the percentage who gambled in 2016, between sports clubs and the gambling industry. A and rates of problem gambling have remained relatively good place to start would be to talk to organisations steady, at below 1% for the past 20 years. Before the hon. such as The Big Step, which work tirelessly to promote Member for Swansea East intervenes, as I know she will the message of no gambling advertising in sports. on that point, let me say that that is too high—that is one thing we agree on. We continue to keep a careful eye Many of us are willing to work with the Government on the evidence, but more advertising does not seem to to get this right. We have the voices. We have the lead to more people gambling or more people suffering knowledge. I ask the Government to let us help them from gambling problems. transform and neutralise the damaging consequences of However, there are clearly legitimate concerns about problem gambling. problem gambling. I am pleased that the industry has listened to concerns, such as those raised by the hon. 5.11 pm Lady, and has acted to some extent: it has extended existing restrictions on pre-watershed advertising to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Digital, include live sport—the so-called “whistle-to-whistle ban” Culture, Media and Sport (Nigel Huddleston): I thank that she mentioned. the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) for her tireless work in advocating for those who have suffered, Protecting children and other vulnerable people from or are at risk of suffering, gambling harms. I have no gambling harms is a priority for the Government. Gambling wish to make party political points on this issue, because advertising, like alcohol, is already governed by strict I believe there is a wish on both sides of the Chamber rules to ensure that it is not targeted at children and is not for further action. of particular appeal to them. Where advertising breaches these rules, the commission can and does take action. I would like to address the concerns that have been raised about gambling advertising and sponsorship of We know that millions of people gamble each year sport. The Gambling Act 2005 does indeed permit and that nearly 7% of the population bet on sport last licensed operators to advertise in a socially responsible year. Most of those people will suffer no harm, but manner.Gambling is a permitted activity and a competitive gambling does carry risks. That is why, as part of the last market in this country, so it follows that businesses in gambling review that took place between 2016 and the sector are able to market their product. The ability 2018, we secured a commitment from industry to fund a to advertise is a key advantage that licensed operators multimillion-pound safer gambling advertising campaign have over the black market. If we removed that advantage, to highlight the risks and encourage safer gambling we would undermine our ability to ensure that gambling behaviours. is conducted in a fair and open way, that it remains Of course, advertising is not the whole story; sponsorship crime-free, and that children and vulnerable people are is an important source of income for sporting teams and protected. bodies, as the hon. Member for Swansea East mentioned. 1251 Gambling Advertising in Sport19 MARCH 2020 Gambling Advertising in Sport 1252

The Gambling Commission has been clear that operators and the Gambling Commission will not put our work to must undertake their sponsorship activities in a socially minimise harm on hold while the review takes place. We responsible way. The FA has strict rules about the size will always act on the evidence to prevent harm. and placement of operator logos and has taken action Wehave already delivered on our manifesto commitment when those have been breached. Logos cannot feature to ban credit card gambling, and we have made it on shirts worn by youth team players and on merchandising, mandatory for operators to be part of GAMSTOP, the including shirts in children’s sizes. Paddy Power’s stunt national online self-exclusion scheme. with Huddersfield led to the FA fining the club. Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab): I thank Carolyn Harris: Perhaps I can just enlighten the the Minister for giving way, and my hon. Friend the Minister: if a child is of a larger size and cannot get a Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) for securing shirt to fit in a child’s size, they end up having the logo this vital debate and the important points that she made on the front of it, so unless clubs make a special effort about gambling advertising, particularly to young people to have adult shirts without logos, which they are obviously in video games such as FIFA. I am pleased that there not going to because it is not in their interests, children are restrictions on gambling on credit cards, for example, are able to wear shirts with logos on. but bets from student loans are a real concern for young people getting into problem gambling. Will the Minister say whether that will be looked into as part of the Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Lady is making a fair gambling review? point and, as I said, I am sure that all these things will be considered in the gambling review. The remit of the Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Lady tempts me to pre-empt review has not yet been scoped, but she will have strong the scope of the review, but we will listen very carefully opinions on it—of that I have no doubt. to what elements should be considered, and again, she makes an important point. I reiterate that, during the Matt Rodda: The Minister is being extremely gracious review and in the run-up to the review, we will not stop to other Members in giving way. Perhaps the review looking at all elements of gambling harm. Although the might consider the family nature of watching sport in review is an important element of the debate, we need Britain because, in many cases, families are going to to continue the dialogue while it is happening, and I football or to other sport together, and the adults and believe I will be coming to the APPG at some point in children are wearing replica shirts together. They are the not-too-distant future to continue that dialogue. watching the team together, so the presence of the At the same time as strengthening protections, we are gambling logo is ubiquitous—it is everywhere. I hope expanding the safety net for those who get into difficulty. that he can address that issue in his review and take it The NHS long-term plan will see up to 14 new specialist very seriously,because it is easy for children to inadvertently gambling clinics across the country, three of which are be exposed to logos or attractive advertising, which can now open. Weare also working closely with the Department affect their perception of gambling very seriously. of Health and Social Care and other Departments on a cross-Government addiction strategy, which will be published later this year. We are, of course, in very Nigel Huddleston: The hon. Gentleman makes an difficult times, and I assure all hon. Members that support important point. One of the great joys of sport is that it is, and will continue to be, available for those who need can be a family activity, and we want to minimise any it. The national gambling helpline remains open around dangers that can be the unintended consequences of the clock. participating or observing those activities. I am pleased to see the House’s commitment to the The gambling industry has committed to developing aim of reducing gambling harms, as well as its enthusiasm and adopting a new code of conduct for sponsorship and advocacy for sport itself. I reassure hon. Members activities by the end of 2020. We and the Gambling that strong protections are already in place, and the Commission will be reviewing its efforts closely to ensure Government will continue to act on the evidence to that they go far enough. As I have mentioned, we have make gambling safer. committed to reviewing the Gambling Act 2005 to Question put and agreed to. make sure that it is fit for the digital age. We will announce further details in due course, but I assure the 5.20 pm hon. Member for Swansea East that the Government House adjourned.

25WS Written Statements 19 MARCH 2020 Written Statements 26WS

with the national position to suspend any poll scheduled Written Statements within this period, including those due to take place today, Thursday 19 March. Thursday 19 March 2020 The Government will give their full support to returning officers and others running polls who make the decision to suspend their polls. We have consulted with the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), which has assured CABINET OFFICE me that prosecution in these circumstances is highly unlikely. Ensuring the health and safety of the public is our Electoral Events: Postponement No.1 priority and I am grateful for the support of the electoral community in helping this effort. We appreciate all of the hard work of returning officers and others The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith): during these difficult and challenging circumstances. On Friday 13 March, the Prime Minister announced [HCWS174] that the scheduled elections in May this year would be postponed by 12 months. The decision to postpone was taken following advice from the Government’s medical European (Withdrawal) Act and Common Frameworks experts in relation to the response to the covid-19 virus. Additional risks include to polling station safety, the possible demands on local authority electoral staff to The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister support other key services, and the impracticality or for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove): I am today laying potential impossibility of campaigning activity. beforeParliamentareport,“TheEuropeanUnion(Withdrawal) We will shortly be bringing forward measures within Act and Common Frameworks: 26 September 2019 to the Coronavirus Bill to postpone the scheduled local 25 December 2019”. I am laying this report because it is and mayoral elections due to take place in England and a legal requirement under the EU (Withdrawal) Act the scheduled police and crime commissioner elections 2018 for quarterly reports to be made to Parliament on due to take place in England and Wales on 7 May this the progress of the work to develop common frameworks. year until the next ordinary day of election on 6 May The report is available on gov.uk and details the progress 2021. Provisions will also be made to enable the made between the UK Government and devolved postponement of other electoral events over the course Administrations regarding the development of common of the year (such as by-elections) and to make necessary frameworks. This report details progress made during consequential amendments associated with the the sixth three-month reporting period, and sets out postponement of polls which may, for example, include that no “freezing”regulations have been brought forward measures relating to incumbent office holders, the under section 12 of the European Union (Withdrawal) nomination of candidates and election expenses. This Act. A copy of the “The European Union (Withdrawal) includes the particular circumstances of new unitary Act and Common Frameworks: 26 September 2019 to councils in Buckinghamshire and Northamptonshire to 25 December 2019”report has been placed in the Libraries ensure the new Buckinghamshire council goes live on of both Houses. The publication of the report reflects 1 April 2020 and that the shadow unitary councils in the Government’scontinued commitment to transparency. Northamptonshire are established in May 2020. We [HCWS171] understand the Warwick council tax referendum (and the proposed above-threshold tax increase) is not now taking place. DEFENCE Where the May 2020 scheduled elections have been postponed, the term of current elected representatives will be extended to May 2021. For those elected in 2021 Armed Forces Reservists: Covid-19 as a result of the postponement their term of office will be three years ending in 2024 rather than four years. For recall petitions, the timing of a recall poll is The Minister for the Armed Forces (James Heappey): prescribed in legislation and any alteration to enable A new order has been made under section 56(1 B) of the postponement will require the measures being brought Reserve Forces Act 1996 to enable reservists to be called forward. The timing of parliamentary by-elections are into permanent service to support HM Forces in connection within the discretion of the political parties and Speaker to the UK’s response to the outbreak of the covid-19 and do not require a legislative remedy for postponement. coronavirus. The Bill will be introduced in Parliament today,however Defence is committed to assisting HMG by ensuring we recognise that there will be a small number of polls that there are effective and proportionate contingency between now and the date of Royal Assent which will plans in place to mitigate the potential impacts that the not be covered by these provisions. We appreciate that covid-19 coronavirus outbreak might have on the welfare, this presents difficult and challenging circumstances for health and security of UK citizens and economic stability returning officers and others running polls, who are of the UK. Defence is taking prudent steps to ensure rightly statutorily independent and responsible for delivering that we can provide support to other Government polls. Running a poll in present times is likely to come Departments when requested. with significant concerns about the wellbeing of those As part of this support, reserve forces will be on involved, which may be unfair to both staff and the standby to deliver a range of defence outputs such as public. As such it would be both reasonable and consistent (but not limited to): the reinforcement of regular sub-units, 27WS Written Statements 19 MARCH 2020 Written Statements 28WS liaison officer roles and the provision of specialist skills. This Government remain committed to increasing A particularly important role may be the planned the transparency of the work of our security and intelligence reinforcement of regional points of command, to enable and law enforcement agencies, and this next iteration of their 24/7 operation and resilience. We would also expect the transparency report is a key part of that commitment. reserves to be drawn upon to support the implementation Publishing this report ensures that the public are able of contingency plans developed by other Government to access, in one place, a guide to the range of powers Departments. used to combat threats to the security of the United The order shall take effect from the day on which it is Kingdom, the extent of their use and the safeguards made and shall cease to have effect 12 months from the and oversight in place to ensure they are used properly. date on which it is made. [HCWS172] [HCWS170]

Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation Report: Operation in 2018 of the Terrorism Acts

HOME DEPARTMENT The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Priti Patel): Jonathan Hall QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, has prepared a report on the operation in 2018 of the Terrorism Acts. In accordance with section 36(5) of the Terrorism HM Government Transparency Report: Disruptive Act 2006, I am today laying this report before the Powers 2018-19 House and copies will be available in the Vote Office. It The Secretary of State for the Home Department will also be published on gov.uk. (Priti Patel): I have today laid before the House the I am grateful to Mr Hall for his report. I will carefully fourth iteration of the Government transparency report consider its contents and the recommendations on the use of disruptive powers (CP 212). Copies of the he makes and will respond formally in due course. report will be made available in the Vote Office and [HCWS173] online on gov.uk. 11MC Ministerial Corrections19 MARCH 2020 Ministerial Corrections 12MC

This is a trial and, as we know, everybody has yet to Ministerial Corrections meet the standards; that is the responsibility also of the clinical commissioning groups, because this is quite complicated. Thursday 19 March 2020 [Official Report, 5 March 2020, Vol. 672, c. 396WH.] Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries). DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [Lords] An error has been identified in the speech I made on Thursday 5 March 2020. The following is an extract from the debate in the The correct statement should have been: Birmingham Commonwealth Games Public Bill [Lords] Committee on Tuesday 17 March 2020. Ms Dorries: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I will go on to talk about waiting times, but he is Nigel Huddleston: …On the point about fundraising absolutely right. It is one of the first trials that we have and ensuring that Birmingham and the west midlands since rolled out to ensure that, across the country, receive adequate financial support to ensure that the anybody who presents with a serious first instance games are successful—we are talking about more than eating disorder is seen within one week and routine £750 million of Government money going into the cases are seen with specialist help within four weeks. games—I will happily work with the hon. Lady to That has been rolled out and tested across the country ensure she is comfortable that the west midlands are by NHS England, and I am incredibly impressed at indeed getting a substantial proportion of Government some of the statistics that I am hearing; I thank the hon. expenditure for that. Member for Worsley and Eccles South for citing her [Official Report, Birmingham Commonwealth Games own constituency. Public Bill [Lords] Committee, 17 March 2020, Vol. 673, As we know, everybody has yet to meet the standards; c. 7.] that is the responsibility also of the clinical commissioning groups, because this is quite complicated. Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, the hon. Member Ms Dorries: We are continuing the investment in for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) mental health services through the NHS long-term An error has been identified in my response to the plan, as I think most people know. The £2.3 billion hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Catherine is with NHS England, which has a long-term plan to West) in the Birmingham Commonwealth Games Public deliver on mental health and is moving at incredible Bill [Lords] Committee on Tuesday 17 March 2020. pace. Even today, although it is not relevant to the debate, it announced the opening of gambling clinics The correct response should have been: across the UK. Community services are being rolled out across the UK so that people in mental health crises do Nigel Huddleston: …On the point about fundraising not end up in casualty. It is an incredibly impressive and ensuring that Birmingham and the west midlands roll-out of mental health services across the UK, including receive adequate financial support to ensure that the for eating disorders. games are successful—we are talking about more than £750 million of public investment going into the games—I [Official Report, 5 March 2020, Vol. 672, c. 399WH.] will happily work with the hon. Lady to ensure she is Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State comfortable that the west midlands are indeed getting for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid a substantial proportion of Government expenditure Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries). for that. An error has been identified in the speech I made on Thursday 5 March 2020. The correct statement should have been: HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE Ms Dorries: We are continuing the investment in Eating Disorders Awareness Week mental health services through the NHS long-term plan, as I think most people know. The £2.3 billion The following are extracts from the Westminster Hall is with NHS England, which has a long-term plan to debate on Thursday 5 March 2020 on Eating Disorders deliver on mental health and is moving at incredible Awareness Week. pace. Even today, although it is not relevant to the debate, it announced the opening of gambling clinics Ms Dorries: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. across the UK. Community services are being rolled out I will go on to talk about waiting times, but he is across England so that people in mental health crises do absolutely right. It is a trial that we have rolled out to not end up in casualty. It is an incredibly impressive ensure that, across the country, anybody who presents roll-out of mental health services across England, including with a serious first instance eating disorder is seen for eating disorders. within one week and routine cases are seen with specialist help within four weeks. That has been rolled out and Ms Dorries: Let me just go on to the point made by tested across the country by NHS England, and I am my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles incredibly impressed at some of the statistics that I Walker) about diabulimia. It is also of course the point am hearing; I thank the hon. Member for Worsley and that the right hon. Member for Knowsley raised repeatedly. Eccles South for citing her own constituency. We are absolutely committed to ensuring that people 13MC Ministerial Corrections19 MARCH 2020 Ministerial Corrections 14MC with diabulimia receive the treatment that they need. The correct statement should have been: That is why NHS England announced in February 2019 the piloting of services. The services are being piloted Ms Dorries: Let me just go on to the point made by on the south coast and in London, and NHS England my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles will evaluate and monitor the pilots and take the learning Walker) about diabulimia. It is also of course the point from them. I will raise what the results show, if the that the right hon. Member for Knowsley raised repeatedly. results are through yet from the pilots, and what learning We are absolutely committed to ensuring that people there has been and how it will apply across the UK. with diabulimia receive the treatment that they need. [Official Report, 5 March 2020, Vol. 672, c. 401WH.] That is why NHS England announced in February 2019 the piloting of services. The services are being piloted Letter of correction from the Under-Secretary of State on the south coast and in London, and NHS England for Health and Social Care, the hon. Member for Mid will evaluate and monitor the pilots and take the learning Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries). from them. I will raise what the results show, if the An error has been identified in the speech I made on results are through yet from the pilots, and what learning Thursday 5 March 2020. there has been and how it will apply across England. ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 19 March 2020

Col. No. Col. No. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS...... 1132 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Church Closure and Use ...... 1132 continued Marriage and Relationship Support...... 1134 Support for Farmers ...... 1123 Persecution of Christians...... 1133 Topical Questions ...... 1125 Tree Planting...... 1116 ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS. 1115 Vulnerable People: Food Supplies ...... 1118 Air Pollution ...... 1115 Deforestation ...... 1118 HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 1128 Flooded Areas: Support...... 1123 Covid-19: Access to House of Commons...... 1129 National Food Strategy...... 1124 Covid-19: Remote Working...... 1130 Support for Farmers ...... 1121 Electronic Voting ...... 1128 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Thursday 19 March 2020

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 25WS HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 27WS Electoral Events: Postponement ...... 25WS HM Government Transparency Report: European (Withdrawal) Act and Common Disruptive Powers 2018-19 ...... 27WS Frameworks ...... 26WS Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation Report: Operation in 2018 of the Terrorism DEFENCE...... 26WS Acts ...... 28WS Armed Forces Reservists: Covid-19 ...... 26WS MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Thursday 19 March 2020

Col. No. Col. No. DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 11MC HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 11MC Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill [Lords] .. 11MC Eating Disorders Awareness Week ...... 11MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 26 March 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 673 Thursday No. 44 19 March 2020

CONTENTS

Thursday 19 March 2020

House of Commons [Col. 1115]

Business before Questions [Col. 1115]

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 1115] [see index inside back page]

Coronavirus: Employment Support [Col. 1137]

Windrush Lessons Learned Review [Col. 1154]

Business of the House [Col. 1169]

Points of Order [Col. 1188] bills presented [Col. 1189]

Backbench Business [Col. 1191]

Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review [Col. 1191] Horizon Settlement: Future Governance of Post Office Ltd [Col. 1224]

Business without Debate [Col. 1246] Gambling Advertising in Sport [Col. 1247]

Written Statements [Col. 25WS]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 11MC]