· · · · · · · · · · JOINT REVIEW PANEL PUBLIC HEARING · · · · · · · ·IN THE MATTER OF Application Nos. 1844520, 1902073, · · ·001-00403427, 001-00403428, 001-00403429, 001-00403430, · · · · 001-00403431, MSL160757, MSL160758, and LOC160842 · · · · · · · · ·to the Alberta Energy Regulator · · · · · · ·______· · · ·GRASSY MOUNTAIN COAL PROJECT - BENGA MINING LIMITED · · · · · · · · · · · · · · VOLUME 3 · · · · · · · · · · · · ·VIA REMOTE VIDEO · · ·______· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · October 29, 2020 ·1· · · · · · · · · · · TABLE OF CONTENTS ·2 ·3· ·Description· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page ·4 ·5· ·October 29, 2020· · · · ·Morning Session· · · · · 450 ·6· ·Discussion· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 453 ·7· ·MONICA FIELD, Affirmed· · · · · · · · · · · · · · 454 ·8· ·Presentation by Monica Field· · · · · · · · · · · 455 ·9· ·Presentation by Monica Field· · · · · · · · · · · 455 10· ·GAIL DES MOULINS, Affirmed· · · · · · · · · · · · 467 11· ·Presentation of Gail Des Moulins· · · · · · · · · 467 12· ·ALISTAIR DES MOULINS, Affirmed· · · · · · · · · · 475 13· ·Presentation by Alistair Des Moulins· · · · · · · 476 14· ·The Alberta Energy Regulator Panel Questions· · · 486 15· ·Alistair Des Moulins 16· ·DAVID MCINTYRE, Affirmed· · · · · · · · · · · · · 490 17· ·Presentation by David McIntyre· · · · · · · · · · 490 18· ·Alberta Energy Regulator Staff Questions· · · · · 537 19· ·David McIntyre 20· ·Joint Review Panel Secretariat Staff· · · · · · · 542 21· ·Questions David McIntyre 22· ·Alberta Energy Regulator Panel Questions· · · · · 547 23· ·David McIntyre 24 25· ·October 29, 2020· · · · ·Afternoon Session· · · · 557 26· ·FRED BRADLEY, Sworn· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·561 ·1· ·Presentation by Fred Bradley· · · · · · · · · · · 561 ·2· ·Mr. Sawyer Cross-examines Fred Bradley· · · · · · 579 ·3· ·Ms. Janusz Cross-examines Fred Bradley· · · · · · 580 ·4· ·Mr. Cooke Cross-examines Fred Bradley· · · · · · ·595 ·5· ·Alberta Energy Regulator Panel Questions Fred· · ·602 ·6· ·Bradley ·7· ·KEN ALLRED, Affirmed· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 607 ·8· ·Presentation by Ken Allred· · · · · · · · · · · · 608 ·9· ·Mr. Sawyer Cross-examines Ken Allred· · · · · · · 618 10· ·MIKE JUDD, Affirmed· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·621 11· ·Direct Evidence of Mike Judd· · · · · · · · · · · 621 12· ·Presentation by Mike Judd· · · · · · · · · · · · ·622 13· ·Opening Remarks by Mr. Ignasiak· · · · · · · · · ·633 14· ·GARY HOUSTON, PEARCE SHEWCHUK, MIKE BARTLETT,· · ·633 15· ·MIKE YUILL, DANE MCCOY, Affirmed 16· ·KEITH BOTT, Sworn· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·633 17· ·Direct Evidence by Benga Mining Limited· · · · · ·633 18· ·(Purpose of Project, Visual Aesthetics, 19· ·Alternative Means, Land and Resources Use, 20· ·Socioeconomic Effects, Historic Resources) 21· ·Mr. Secord Cross-examines Benga Mining· · · · · · 641 22· ·Limited 23· ·Response to Undertaking by Benga Mining· · · · · ·684 24· ·Limited 25· ·Discussion· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 691 26· ·Certificate of Transcript· · · · · · · · · · · · ·697 ·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · EXHIBITS ·2 ·3· ·Description· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Page ·4 ·5· ·EXHIBIT CIAR 752 - AQ1 - COALITION - AID TO· · · ·659 ·6· ·CROSS_ANNOTATED CLIENT MAP FROM CIAR 571 page 38 ·7· ·EXHIBIT CIAR 753 - AQ4 - COALITION - AID TO· · · ·659 ·8· ·CROSS_GMR LAND TITLES ·9· ·EXHIBIT CIAR 754 - AQ11 - COALITION - AID TO· · · 663 10· ·CROSS_SW 11_ROAD EASEMENT_201185904 11· ·EXHIBIT CIAR 755 - AQ12 - COALITION - AID TO· · · 678 12· ·CROSS_ROAD PLAN_8811754 13· ·EXHIBIT FOR IDENTIFICATION AQ6 - COALITION -· · · 694 14· ·AID TO CROSS_NORTHSTAR MAP 15· ·EXHIBIT FOR IDENTIFICATION AQ3 - COALITION -· · · 694 16· ·AID TO CROSS_APRIL 22, 2015 DEVON CANADA LT 17· ·RIVERSDALE 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ·1· ·Proceedings Taken via Remote Video ·2· ·______·3· ·October 29, 2020· · · · ·Morning Session ·4 ·5· ·A. Bolton· · · · · · · · The Chair ·6· ·D. O'Gorman· · · · · · · Hearing Commissioner ·7· ·H. Matthews· · · · · · · Hearing Commissioner ·8 ·9· ·M. LaCasse· · · · · · · ·AER Counsel 10· ·B. Kapel Holden· · · · · AER Counsel 11 12· ·K. Lambrecht, QC· · · · ·Joint Review Panel Secretariat 13· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Counsel 14 15· ·T. Utting· · · · · · · · AER Staff 16· ·E. Arruda· · · · · · · · AER Staff 17· ·D. Campbell· · · · · · · AER Staff 18· ·T. Turner· · · · · · · · AER Staff 19· ·T. Wheaton· · · · · · · ·AER Staff 20· ·A. Shukalkina· · · · · · AER Staff 21 22· ·M. Ignasiak· · · · · · · For Benga Mining Limited 23· ·C. Brinker 24 25· ·R. Warden· · · · · · · · For Ktunaxa Nation 26 ·1· ·K. Poitras· · · · · · · ·For Métis Nation of Alberta ·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Region 3 ·3 ·4· ·Chief B. Cote· · · · · · For Shuswap Indian Band ·5 ·6· ·B. Snow· · · · · · · · · For Stoney Nakoda Nations ·7 ·8· ·R. Drummond· · · · · · · For Government of Canada ·9· ·S. McHugh 10 11· ·A. Gulamhusein· · · · · ·For Municipality of Crowsnest 12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Pass 13 14· ·M. Niven, QC· · · · · · ·For MD of Ranchland No. 66 15· ·R. Barata 16· ·J. Nijjer 17 18· ·B. McGillivray· · · · · ·For Town of Pincher Creek 19 20· ·D. Yewchuk· · · · · · · ·For Canadian Parks and 21· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Wilderness Society, Southern 22· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Alberta Chapter 23 24· ·R. Secord· · · · · · · · For Coalition of Alberta 25· ·I. Okoye· · · · · · · · ·Wilderness Association, Grassy 26· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Mountain Group, Berdina Farms ·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Ltd., Donkersgoed Feeder ·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Limited, Sun Cured Alfalfa ·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Cubes Inc., and Vern Emard ·4 ·5· ·R. Cooke· · · · · · · · ·For Crowsnest Conservation ·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Society ·7 ·8· ·G. Fitch, QC· · · · · · ·For Livingstone Landowners ·9· ·C. Agudelo· · · · · · · ·Group 10 11· ·M. Sawyer· · · · · · · · For Timberwolf Wilderness 12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Society and Mike Judd 13 14· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Barbara Janusz 15 16· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Jim Rennie 17 18· ·S. Elmeligi· · · · · · · For Alberta Chapter of the 19· ·A. Morehouse· · · · · · ·Wildlife Society and the 20· ·S. Milligan· · · · · · · Canadian Section of the 21· ·M. Boyce· · · · · · · · ·Wilderness Society 22 23· ·J. Gourlay-Vallance· · · For Eco-Elders for Climate 24· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Action 25 26· ·L. Peterson· · · · · · · For Trout Unlimited Canada ·1· ·R. Campbell· · · · · · · For Coal Association of Canada ·2 ·3· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Alistair Des Moulins ·4 ·5· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For David McIntyre ·6 ·7· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Fred Bradley ·8 ·9· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Gail Des Moulins 10 11· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Ken Allred 12· ·(Not Present) 13 14· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Monica Field 15 16· ·S. Frank· · · · · · · · ·For Oldman Watershed Council 17· ·A. Hurly 18 19· ·A. Porco, CSR(A)· · · · ·Official Court Reporter 20· ·______21· ·(PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 9:01 AM) 22· ·Discussion 23· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Good morning, everyone. 24· ·Before we get started, just my usual reminder that live 25· ·audio and video streams and video recordings of this 26· ·proceeding are available to the public through the ·1· ·AER's website and YouTube.· Anyone in the virtual ·2· ·hearing room with their camera or microphone turned on ·3· ·will be captured, and images and recordings of you and ·4· ·your surroundings will be broadcast to a publicly ·5· ·available YouTube video.· If you have any concerns ·6· ·about this, please contact counsel well in advance of ·7· ·the time you're scheduled to participate to explain ·8· ·your concerns, and we'll make best efforts to ·9· ·accommodate your concerns, considering the need for an 10· ·open and transparent public process. 11· · · · Just one other reminder.· I know Mr. Sawyer had a 12· ·little bit of difficulty getting my attention late 13· ·yesterday when he wanted to ask some questions.· So 14· ·I'll just remind people, I don't see everybody who, of 15· ·course, doesn't have their video on.· So if you do want 16· ·to interject to ask questions, please turn your 17· ·microphone on and try and get my attention that way, to 18· ·make sure that nobody's overlooked trying to get my 19· ·attention. 20· · · · Are there any other preliminary matters before we 21· ·move into further opening remarks or presentations? 22· · · · Hearing none, I think first up is Monica Field. 23· · · · And, Ms. Field, I'll just ask that you be sworn or 24· ·affirmed before you start your presentation. 25· ·MONICA FIELD, Affirmed 26· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Please proceed, Ms. Field. ·1· ·Presentation by Monica Field ·2· ·MS. FIELD:· · · · · · · ·Thank you for the opportunity ·3· ·to participate in this hearing.· For my presentation ·4· ·I'd like to talk a little bit about general concerns ·5· ·for society and then my own personal concerns.· I'll ·6· ·start with a song, and this is a song I've written to ·7· ·express how I feel about open-pit coal mining in the ·8· ·headwaters field of the Oldman River.· It's a song of ·9· ·regret, and it's a song I hope we don't have to sing. 10· ·It's called Beautiful Lies.· (as sung) 11· · · · When it's all over, and the dream dies, what 12· · · · will be left from the ashes to rise?· Why are 13· · · · we sorry?· Why the surprise?· We traded our 14· · · · beauty for beautiful lies.· Let's boldly step 15· · · · back to days that have gone, the company 16· · · · tells us we can't go wrong.· Good days on the 17· · · · way.· Good times here to stay again.· When 18· · · · it's all over and the dream dies, what will 19· · · · be left from the ashes to rise?· Why are we 20· · · · sorry?· Why the surprise?· We traded our 21· · · · beauty for beautiful lies.· We traded our 22· · · · mountains for jobs with good pay.· Big piles 23· · · · of waste rock are left there to stay. 24· · · · Profits went away.· Wish for yesterday again. 25· · · · When it's all over and the dream dies, what 26· · · · will be left from the ashes to rise?· Why are ·1· · · · we sorry?· And why the surprise?· We traded ·2· · · · our beauty for beautiful lies.· Now the ·3· · · · mine's finished, and what did we gain?· We ·4· · · · gave up our water.· We used up our rain. ·5· · · · What will we do now?· What will we allow ·6· · · · again?· When it's all over and the dream ·7· · · · dies, what will be left from the ashes to ·8· · · · rise?· Why are we sorry?· Why the surprise? ·9· · · · We traded our beauty for beautiful lies.· We 10· · · · traded our beauty for beautiful lies. 11· ·Like many of the people who have spoken at this 12· ·hearing, I am not in favour of open-pit coal mining in 13· ·the headwaters of the Oldman River, and I urge the 14· ·Panel to deny this application.· The reasons are -- I'm 15· ·going to have two parts of reasons.· One is more big 16· ·picture, and one is me personally. 17· · · · So looking at the big picture, I certainly 18· ·understand why people want the coal mines, because of 19· ·the jobs, and Crowsnest Pass was built on coal mining. 20· ·And for the people who get jobs, maybe it's a fair 21· ·tradeoff, but a lot of the health problems don't appear 22· ·for quite a long time, and even now we don't really 23· ·know what the effects are of our historical mining. 24· ·They're probably greater than we think.· And so people 25· ·look back to the good old days.· Let's go back.· And 26· ·that's nostalgia.· It's not always accurate. ·1· · · · And I know that Crowsnest Pass when I was a kid ·2· ·that Crowsnest Pass was black, the buildings were ·3· ·black, and you think, Why would anyone want to live ·4· ·there?· And my older miner buddy Albert Goodwin used to ·5· ·say, The coal mining is up and down like a toilet seat. ·6· ·And it's true.· It wasn't a stable industry.· There ·7· ·were strikes over production; men didn't get all the ·8· ·shifts they needed.· So they hunted to feed their ·9· ·families.· There wasn't an edible animal anywhere near 10· ·the Crowsnest Pass in those days.· My mother said they 11· ·never saw elk or deer, and it was a good living in some 12· ·ways, but not entirely. 13· · · · And so I think we have to consider that going into 14· ·coal mining in a huge way, returning to our roots might 15· ·not be the best option for the future, and it could 16· ·discourage other options.· Right now, we have people, 17· ·and one of participants has identified herself as an 18· ·amenity migrant.· People came to the Crowsnest Pass 19· ·because it's beautiful.· Well, it wasn't beautiful when 20· ·I was a kid but it's beautiful now, and it's been 21· ·beautiful for a long time after mining ended.· And you 22· ·won't get those people.· And tourism -- I don't believe 23· ·tourism in a big way in terms of outdoor tourism and 24· ·open-pit coal mining are compatible. 25· · · · Also, we have quite a few retired people living in 26· ·the Pass and they bring their pensions with them.· You ·1· ·might be surprised how some small communities depend on ·2· ·retirees.· That's their biggest income.· Choteau, ·3· ·Montana.· Ranching and farming.· But the hidden economy ·4· ·is people retiring and moving into town and needing all ·5· ·these services, and they have investments.· You young ·6· ·people won't have that, but us older people, we do.· So ·7· ·we're valuable.· There are many futures, but in ·8· ·choosing this one, and if we -- if we approve the ·9· ·application, we will be denying the others. 10· · · · And I think that's a shame because coal mining may 11· ·be a thing of the past.· It may be an industry that's 12· ·had its day, and we might be better off with future 13· ·technologies.· It's a -- a 25-roughly-year period, and 14· ·then what are we left with?· The original coal mines in 15· ·the Pass were never properly reclaimed, and there are 16· ·health issues with those.· What about the future?· Are 17· ·taxpayers going to be left in the far future?· And is 18· ·anyone thinking of the big picture, the cumulative 19· ·effects how this fits in with other uses, what will 20· ·happen many, many years down the line?· I don't know 21· ·why economic benefits always seem to trump any other 22· ·concerns.· But in this case, I'm not sure even the 23· ·economic benefits will -- will show us that this was a 24· ·good decision in the long term. 25· · · · I also think that we need to be mindful of some of 26· ·the risks with open-pit coal mining close to Turtle ·1· ·Mountain.· I have a concern.· I worked for the Alberta ·2· ·Government for 38 years and was involved with ·3· ·monitoring Turtle Mountain during all that time.· And ·4· ·no one on Earth can say what the risk is.· We can't ·5· ·quantify it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't ·6· ·exist.· And I know in my emergency planning for the ·7· ·Frank Slide Interpretive Centre, the possibility of a ·8· ·future rock avalanche from Turtle Mountain was a risk. ·9· ·And it was a high risk because even though the 10· ·probability of it happening in any given year was 11· ·low -- I mean it will happen again one day, but I would 12· ·be planning for the next year.· So low probability of 13· ·happening that year, but the consequences are 14· ·catastrophic, which catapults it up to high risk.· And 15· ·I don't think there's any better evidence of what could 16· ·happen than what did happen. 17· · · · Turtle Mountain has an unstable geological 18· ·structure, and there were contributing factors to the 19· ·slide.· One of them was coal mining.· They mined under 20· ·Turtle Mountain before the Frank Slide, and the 21· ·connection with coal mining can be seen because the 22· ·area that fell is right above where they mined between 23· ·1900 and 1903 when the slide occurred.· They went right 24· ·back in and kept mining because the people wanted jobs, 25· ·the company wanted profit, and the government wanted 26· ·industry. ·1· · · · And so in the case of mining at Grassy, we know we ·2· ·picked up seismic signals from blasting in British ·3· ·Columbia.· This mine is much closer.· There'll be ·4· ·blasting other operations; what will the effect be? ·5· ·And what will we do about it if we find there is an ·6· ·effect? ·7· · · · It would be very hard to narrow it down with ·8· ·monitoring if we saw an acceleration of movement from ·9· ·Turtle Mountain.· To be able to tell where it came from 10· ·would be difficult because it could be a variety of 11· ·contributing factors.· But let's say we could say, 12· ·Okay.· That this Grassy Mountain mine is causing 13· ·movement on Turtle Mountain, would the mine be shut 14· ·down at that point?· You know, that didn't happen in 15· ·1903. 16· · · · So I believe that is concern.· If the mountain 17· ·falls, lives are at stake.· Possibly it could cover the 18· ·highway.· We've got transportation, utilities, and it 19· ·could be -- could be moving the timeline for Frank 20· ·Slide to the return up more than it might naturally 21· ·have occurred. 22· · · · I wanted to mention , too, just in the big 23· ·picture, that there aren't very many participants in 24· ·this hearing.· And, yeah, this is an issue that 25· ·involves not just the Crowsnest Pass, but all the 26· ·downstream users, and the people who pay the biggest ·1· ·price for an open-pit coal mine are the ones within a ·2· ·hundred kilometres of the mine, but the effects can go ·3· ·way downstream.· Look at Elk Valley mines and -- and ·4· ·river systems going into Montana.· So I would have ·5· ·liked to have seen more participants.· There are ·6· ·barriers.· One is awareness.· Many people I talked to ·7· ·had no idea that this project was even proposed. ·8· ·Another barrier is just the time and effort involved in ·9· ·participation.· There are technical difficulties with 10· ·equipment and getting everything to work and submitting 11· ·on time. 12· · · · Reading everything the proponent has -- has put 13· ·into the registry is an onerous task, but you have to 14· ·do a lot of research if you're going to make a 15· ·presentation.· And the companies had years to -- to put 16· ·all this in, and the participants get a little more 17· ·than a month to put together a submission, and so it's 18· ·very stressful.· And wondering if the equipment's going 19· ·to work, formatting problems with different types of 20· ·computers. 21· · · · Another deterrent is, with our community, that 22· ·many people support the mine.· And in a small 23· ·community, you see everyone.· And so I know a lot of 24· ·people who don't support the mine, but they're not 25· ·going to say anything, because they might see so-and-so 26· ·at the post office and he might be really unpleasant to ·1· ·them; or worse, they could get their house egged, their ·2· ·car tires slashed, their windows smashed, their car ·3· ·keyed.· There's a lot of intimidation.· So I don't know ·4· ·if -- if too many people really want to raise their ·5· ·heads and -- and be heard. ·6· · · · And so what we end up with is quite a small number ·7· ·of people actually participating in the hearing. ·8· · · · As far as my own situation, I am concerned, as ·9· ·others have mentioned, about dust and -- and water 10· ·quality and fish and all of the negative effects that 11· ·could happen.· For me, dust is a huge concern.· I have 12· ·an autoimmune disorder.· I have no natural tears. I 13· ·put in tear gel, so if you see me wiping my eyes, it's 14· ·just because it runs out.· But dust is really nasty for 15· ·me.· And dust from this mine, which is 12 kilometres 16· ·west of here, will blow here because of the Chinook 17· ·winds and the west winds. 18· · · · And I can tell you wind stories forever.· I've 19· ·been blown off my feet.· I've flown on the end of the 20· ·Frank Slide special event banner.· It is far more 21· ·dangerous than Benga has implicated in any of the 22· ·documents, and the winds are increasingly blowing 23· ·harder and harder.· So even Environment Canada, that 24· ·would never give a wind warning for over a hundred 25· ·kilometres an hour, has admitted that the wind could be 26· ·130 kilometres an hour.· And if you've ever been out in ·1· ·it you can see it is vicious.· It will blow the dust, ·2· ·it will blow everything that isn't tied down. ·3· · · · And as far as dust, you could say, Well, when I ·4· ·saw Blairmore in the old days, and Coleman, that was ·5· ·because of old methods, and modern methods won't do ·6· ·that.· But the people in Sparwood wouldn't agree. I ·7· ·saw from the Fernie Free Press, an article and it said: ·8· ·(as read) ·9· · · · Air quality has been an ingoing issue for the 10· · · · mining town as dust events at Elk View leave 11· · · · homes and cars coated in a film of black coal 12· · · · dust. 13· ·Well, I know that if you're making a living from it, it 14· ·makes it easier to bear, but that's difficult. 15· · · · And talking to friends from Grande Cache who said, 16· ·Oh, when the mine closed, it was way nicer to live 17· ·there.· It was like living in a park.· So dust -- dust 18· ·is a concern. 19· · · · Another concern I have is noise, and I don't mean 20· ·industrial noise.· I imagine it won't be louder than 21· ·the allowable frequency, but it's the hum.· And the hum 22· ·is a phenomenon that occurs all over the world where 23· ·people hear a low sound, and -- and it won't go away, 24· ·and it bothers them, and they have traced the majority 25· ·of these incidents to industrial noise.· It's a real 26· ·thing.· Not everyone hears it. ·1· · · · Well, I found out I hear it because when ·2· ·Riversdale was doing exploratory work on Grassy ·3· ·Mountain, I could hear that when I was out walking ·4· ·where we live.· And it really bothered me.· It went ·5· ·right through me, and I -- it was like a toothache. I ·6· ·can't stand it.· So I'm very concerned just on a ·7· ·personal level what having this mine so close to me is ·8· ·going to do with my life. ·9· · · · Another concern I have is a lawsuit from the 10· ·company for opposition.· I thought long and hard about 11· ·raising my head to talk about this and to be in the 12· ·hearings, because once you raise your head, you get 13· ·shot at.· Not only the local people -- we've actually 14· ·had vandalism to our vehicles -- but companies can hit 15· ·you with what's called a SLAPP suit, strategic 16· ·litigation against public participation.· And that's 17· ·not legal everywhere, but it is legal in Alberta. 18· · · · And so to give an example, years ago a company 19· ·called Micrex proposed to mine magnetite on the Eastern 20· ·Slopes of the Livingstone Range, and they sued my 21· ·husband because he was not in favour of this mine, and 22· ·almost all of -- all of our neighbours were not in 23· ·favour either. 24· · · · The lawsuit was challenged on the grounds that it 25· ·was initiated to simply silence my husband and other 26· ·opposition to the project, and I know that silenced ·1· ·virtually everyone in the area.· Micrex subsequently ·2· ·agreed to abandon the lawsuit and pay my husband's ·3· ·court cost.· This noted, the company has never paid ·4· ·these costs.· The case was closed, but the impacts are ·5· ·still felt.· We could have lost everything we had then ·6· ·if that had gone ahead and they'd won somehow.· I don't ·7· ·know how they could have, but it was one of the worst ·8· ·moments of my whole life. ·9· · · · And so a proponent's attempt to use the legal 10· ·system to silence opposition is most disturbing and 11· ·should never be tolerated within a free society. 12· · · · I know that there is a possibility this project 13· ·will be approved and that other projects will be 14· ·approved and we'll become a coal-mining region once 15· ·again, and then we'll suffer from what National 16· ·Geographic has called "soul nostalgia", which is 17· ·missing a place that doesn't exist anymore, a place 18· ·that you loved and was very beautiful but it's gone. 19· ·And I hope we don't feel soul nostalgia, and I hope 20· ·that we aren't singing sad songs about regret.· So 21· ·respectfully, I -- I ask the Panel to deny this 22· ·application.· Thank you very much. 23· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Ms. Field.· I'll 24· ·just see if anybody has any questions for you, if 25· ·that's all right. 26· ·MS. FIELD:· · · · · · · ·Sure. ·1· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. Ignasiak, any questions ·2· ·from Benga? ·3· ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · No, Mr. Chair.· Thank you. ·4· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you.· Any other ·5· ·participants? ·6· · · · Okay.· Ms. LaCasse, any questions from AER staff? ·7· ·MS. KAPEL HOLDEN:· · · · Good morning, Mr. Chair. ·8· ·There aren't any questions from the AER staff. ·9· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you 10· ·Ms. Kapel Holden. 11· · · · Mr. Lambrecht, any questions? 12· ·MR. LAMBRECHT:· · · · · ·I have no questions for 13· ·Ms. Field, and thank her for her presentation. 14· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. 15· · · · Mr. Matthews? 16· ·MR. MATTHEWS:· · · · · · Thank you, Ms. Field, for your 17· ·presentation.· I have no questions. 18· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. O'Gorman? 19· ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · · Yeah, thank you also, 20· ·Ms. Field.· I also don't have any questions.· I would 21· ·say I do appreciate you coming up with and performing 22· ·the song for us.· It was a nice change to what we 23· ·normally hear. 24· ·MS. FIELD:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. 25· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. 26· · · · I don't have any questions for you either, ·1· ·Ms. Field, but I would echo what Mr. O'Gorman said. ·2· ·I've been on several panels on different matters, and ·3· ·I'm pretty sure that's the first time somebody did an ·4· ·original song for us, and so it was appreciated.· And ·5· ·thank you for your participation and your words today. ·6· · · · Okay.· Next we'll hear from Gail Des Moulins. ·7· ·MS. DES MOULINS:· · · · ·Yes.· Hello.· I'm here. ·8· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·We'll just ask that you be ·9· ·sworn or affirmed first, and then you may proceed. 10· ·GAIL DES MOULINS, Affirmed 11· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you.· Please go ahead. 12· ·Presentation of Gail Des Moulins 13· ·MS. DES MOULINS:· · · · ·Good morning, everyone.· My 14· ·name is Gail Des Moulins.· I live in Coleman.· I'm just 15· ·a private citizen putting in my 2 cents worth. 16· ·Hopefully our car won't get vandalized for saying this. 17· · · · My concern is if the company leaves town without 18· ·doing the reclamation.· This mine will supposedly 19· ·operate for 23 years according to Riversdale -- 20· ·Riversdale Resources.com:· (as read) 21· · · · Our Grassy Mountain Coal Project is a 22· · · · proposed steelmaking coal mine that will be 23· · · · developed on a legacy mining area 7K north 24· · · · from Blairmore in the Crowsnest Pass, 25· · · · Alberta.· The project to -- is projected to 26· · · · produce around 93 million tonnes of product ·1· · · · coal over its currently proposed 23-year mine ·2· · · · life. ·3· ·In the process of starting up this mine, the ground ·4· ·will be disturbed, waterways will possibly be ·5· ·disturbed, roads will be disturbed, plants and animals ·6· ·may be disturbed. ·7· · · · Up until now, it was thought that only ·8· ·metallurgical coal could produce hot enough ·9· ·temperatures to make steel.· I do not think that the 10· ·world price of metallurgical coal will remain high 11· ·enough for this project to be economically worthwhile 12· ·for that long.· Then, the company may declare 13· ·bankruptcy so they would not have the money to do the 14· ·reclamation or skip town without notice and not do the 15· ·reclamation.· We have seen this happen with orphaned 16· ·and abandoned oil wells, leaving the people with the 17· ·cost of cleanup. 18· · · · Also, not too long ago, a big company came to the 19· ·Crowsnest Pass, made lots of big promises, started 20· ·digging up the land, then left town, leaving piles of 21· ·dirt and machinery laying about, and that was just 22· ·dirt. 23· · · · There needs to be some money set aside by the 24· ·company up front to cover the true cost of reclamation. 25· ·If the company does not do it, this money should be 26· ·held in a trust or as a bond by some third party, such ·1· ·as a government department.· This is a cost of doing ·2· ·business.· Empty promises cost nothing.· Fool me once, ·3· ·shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. ·4· · · · There is no point in fining the company for not ·5· ·doing proper reclamation.· If they skip town and go ·6· ·back to where they came from, it will be very difficult ·7· ·to collect the fine; or if they declare bankruptcy, it ·8· ·may not be possible to collect the fine. ·9· · · · Why I believe that the price of metallurgical coal 10· ·will decline:· Various articles that I have read show 11· ·that new technology is being developed at this very 12· ·moment which will replace the need for metallurgical 13· ·coal with hydrogen or solar power to fuel blast 14· ·furnaces used for making steel, and the use of 15· ·electric-arc furnaces may replace some blast furnaces. 16· ·So the demand for metallurgical coal will decrease, 17· ·resulting in more supply than demand.· The price of 18· ·coal drops, the mine will no longer be making enough 19· ·profit.· If even half of the steelmaking companies in 20· ·the world switch over to new technologies, the world's 21· ·supply of metallurgical coal will surpass the demand 22· ·for it, lowering the price. 23· · · · These are some excerpts of articles I have found 24· ·about alternative fuels for steelmaking.· Excerpt from 25· ·economictimes.indiatimes.com:· (as read) 26· · · · For China, the largest global steel producer, ·1· · · · the bulk of its incremental production is ·2· · · · expected to come from the electric-arc ·3· · · · furnace root which is not dependent on coking ·4· · · · coal.· The latest steel production ·5· · · · projections from the World Steel Association, ·6· · · · seaborne coking coal demand is not expected ·7· · · · to significantly increase from major steel ·8· · · · producing nations like China, Japan, South ·9· · · · Korea, and the European Union. 10· ·Another excerpt from the Press Release, April 28th, 11· ·2020, from Heliogen.com:· (as read) 12· · · · Heliogen, the clean energy company that is 13· · · · transforming sunlight to create and replace 14· · · · fuels, today announced its launch and that it 15· · · · has for the first time commercially 16· · · · concentrated solar energy to exceed 17· · · · temperatures greater than 1,000 degrees 18· · · · Celsius.· At that temperature, Heliogen can 19· · · · replace the use of fossil fuels in the 20· · · · critical industrial processes, including the 21· · · · production of cement, steel, and 22· · · · petrochemicals, dramatically reducing 23· · · · greenhouse gas emissions from these 24· · · · activities.· The singular scientific 25· · · · achievement was accomplished at Heliogen's 26· · · · commercial facility in Lancaster, California. ·1· ·Another excerpt from fastcompany.com speaking about ·2· ·Heliogen:· (as read) ·3· · · · A mining company that uses steam to extract ·4· · · · minerals wants to use the technology to ·5· · · · replace coal.· The mining company is ·6· · · · indifferent to the source of energy.· Gross ·7· · · · says [Bill Gross is one of the people at ·8· · · · Heliogen] that they're interested in ·9· · · · switching because the new solar tech can beat 10· · · · the price of coal. 11· ·Another excerpt from AL.com, February 2020:· (as read) 12· · · · As many as 600 contractors have spent the 13· · · · last year getting US Steel's Fairfield 14· · · · tubular steel plant ready for the future.· In 15· · · · this case, the future comes in the form of an 16· · · · electric-arc furnace, replacing a 17· · · · $412 million investment in the plant.· When 18· · · · it is up and running at full capacity, the 19· · · · furnace will employ about 150 full-time 20· · · · employees and to -- and be able to produce 21· · · · 1.6 million tonnes of steel a year. 22· · · · Electric-arc furnaces make steel from melted 23· · · · scrap metal instead of iron ore and can 24· · · · operate with fewer workers.· They're also 25· · · · easier to stop and restart than traditional 26· · · · blast furnaces that must operate continuously ·1· · · · to avoid damage.· It's the newest, most ·2· · · · modern way to make steel, Matthew, plant ·3· · · · manager at Fairfield tubular steel ·4· · · · operations, said.· It's flexible.· It's low ·5· · · · cost.· Denson Roy, manager of engineering and ·6· · · · capital projects, said the EAF project is the ·7· · · · first of its kind for US Steel.· The ·8· · · · electrical needs require new transmission ·9· · · · lines from Alabama Power.· It's the right 10· · · · time to be in it, he said.· This is the 11· · · · latest technology and it allows us to satisfy 12· · · · our customers' needs.· We feel like it's a 13· · · · really good strategy. 14· ·Another excerpt from reneweconomy.com.au:· (as read) 15· · · · Another nail in coal's coffin?· [This is from 16· · · · 13th of November 2019].· German steel furnace 17· · · · runs on renewable hydrogen in world first. 18· · · · German manufacturing giant Thyssenkrupp has 19· · · · completed a successful, first-of-its-kind 20· · · · demonstration of running a steel furnace 21· · · · completely on hydrogen, a development that is 22· · · · likely to further dent the future prospects 23· · · · for the global coal industry.· As part of the 24· · · · demonstration conducted in its Furnace 9, 25· · · · Thyssenkrupp fed hydrogen into one of 28 26· · · · nozzles that otherwise supply coal into the ·1· · · · blast furnace.· Following the successful ·2· · · · trial, Thyssenkrupp plans to scale up the ·3· · · · injection to all 28 nozzles within the ·4· · · · furnace and aims to eventually run at least ·5· · · · three furnaces completely on hydrogen by ·6· · · · 2023.· Steel production will play an ·7· · · · important part in reaching our climate ·8· · · · targets because the potential for reducing ·9· · · · emissions is huge.· That's why we're working 10· · · · flat out to drive the transition to hydrogen 11· · · · technology.· The company intends to 12· · · · commission new steel furnaces in the 13· · · · mid-2020s that will initially use hydrogen to 14· · · · produce sponge iron that will be separately 15· · · · converted into crude steel using 16· · · · renewably-powered electric-arc furnaces. 17· ·Other methods of producing hydrogen -- this is an 18· ·excerpt from www.eia.gov:· (as read) 19· · · · Research is underway to develop other ways to 20· · · · produce hydrogen, such as using microbes that 21· · · · use light to make hydrogen, converting 22· · · · biomass into gas or liquids and separating 23· · · · the hydrogen, using solar energy technologies 24· · · · to split hydrogen from water molecules. 25· ·So if a company does not believe that this change is 26· ·coming soon, then they are either very naive about ·1· ·their industry or purposely denying it. ·2· · · · So they may be surprised by the drop in coal ·3· ·prices and not have the money to do the reclamation ·4· ·properly.· Whatever promises that Riversdale makes ·5· ·about reclamation, it must be applicable to the company ·6· ·that ends up operating the mine.· At one of the first ·7· ·open houses about this project, a Riversdale person ·8· ·said they are developers, not operators. ·9· · · · Even though the company has already spent some 10· ·money on this project, it does not mean that they will 11· ·not abandon it.· I have seen this happen when I worked 12· ·in the oil patch.· Even after spending large amounts of 13· ·money on a project, it was cancelled because it was 14· ·deemed not worthwhile. 15· · · · It doesn't matter if people here don't believe me. 16· ·It doesn't matter if the current government believes 17· ·this or not.· It doesn't matter if the Coal Association 18· ·of Canada doesn't believe this.· Change is happening. 19· ·It's not a matter of political ideology or policy. 20· ·It's just economics , supply and demand. 21· · · · Thank you. 22· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Ms. Des Moulins. 23· ·I'll just see if anybody has any questions for you. 24· · · · Mr. Ignasiak, anything from Benga? 25· ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · No, sir.· Thank you. 26· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. ·1· · · · Any other participants? ·2· · · · Ms. LaCasse, any questions from AER staff?· Oh, I ·3· ·didn't hear that. ·4· ·MS. KAPEL HOLDEN:· · · · Ms. LaCasse is having some ·5· ·technical difficulties. ·6· · · · We have no questions. ·7· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Ms. Kapel Holden. ·8· · · · Mr. Lambrecht? ·9· ·MR. LAMBRECHT:· · · · · ·Sir, I have no questions for 10· ·Ms. Des Moulins and thank her for her presentation. 11· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay, thank you. 12· · · · Mr. O'Gorman? 13· ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · · I also have no questions. 14· ·Thank you, Ms. Des Moulins, for your presentation. 15· ·MR. MATTHEWS:· · · · · · I have no questions.· Thanks 16· ·for your presentation. 17· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Ms. Des Moulins, I don't have 18· ·any questions for you either, but thank you very much 19· ·for your participation today. 20· ·MS. DES MOULINS:· · · · ·Thank you. 21· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Now we'll hear from 22· ·Alistair Des Moulins.· And I'd just ask that you be 23· ·sworn or affirmed before you start, sir. 24· ·MR. DES MOULINS:· · · · ·Affirmed. 25· ·ALISTAIR DES MOULINS, Affirmed 26· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Please proceed. ·1· ·Presentation by Alistair Des Moulins ·2· ·MR. DES MOULINS:· · · · ·Good morning, all.· My wife ·3· ·and I, as I said, live in Coleman.· Our house is about ·4· ·6 kilometres from the proposed mine site. ·5· · · · We moved to Coleman from Calgary for the lifestyle ·6· ·and recreation, using the terms of Rick Cooke's opening ·7· ·remarks from the first day of this hearing.· We've been ·8· ·following the Grassy Mountain mine proposal since 2015, ·9· ·and I have submitted comments to some of the 10· ·environmental assessment documents. 11· · · · I also represent the Alberta Hiking Association on 12· ·the Alberta Environment and Parks, Castle, 13· ·Livingstone-Porcupine Hills, Bob Creek, Black Creek 14· ·Recreation Advisory Group.· In future, I'll refer to 15· ·that just as a "RAG". 16· · · · On the 27th of November 2019, I attended an event 17· ·put on by the Crowsnest Conservation Society where 18· ·presentations were made by four of the company -- five 19· ·companies prospecting for coal in the area. 20· · · · Oh, just before I -- is my presentation available, 21· ·my slide presentation? 22· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·We should be able to pull it 23· ·up.· Just give us a minute. 24· ·MR. DES MOULINS:· · · · ·I forgot about that.· That's 25· ·good.· Okay.· Thank you. 26· · · · It was only on the 14th of December 2019 when my ·1· ·wife and I hiked up a 6,500-foot summit, 6.5 kilometres ·2· ·due north of Coleman, that I started to realize the ·3· ·full impact that coal mines could have on the ·4· ·experience of hiking and outdoor recreation in general ·5· ·in the Crowsnest Pass.· The day was fine and calm, and ·6· ·it was quiet, a perfect hiking experience.· I looked ·7· ·east to Grassy Mountain 4 kilometres away, and this ·8· ·picture you see now is that view. ·9· · · · I thought, If that mine goes ahead, hiking here 10· ·will be a very different experience.· If there was an 11· ·ATV, an all-terrain vehicle, on Grassy Mountain, I 12· ·would hear it now, but it would go away.· The sound of 13· ·a mine would likely be louder and constant and be heard 14· ·24/7 for 25 years; in other words, for the rest of my 15· ·life. 16· · · · To the east of Grassy Mountain is Livingstone 17· ·Ridge, the actual skyline in this first picture. 18· ·Another popular hiking destination from where the 19· ·sights and sound of the mine would also be experienced. 20· · · · Next slide, please. 21· · · · All my slides that I'm going to show show views of 22· ·Grassy Mountain from some of the hiking opportunities 23· ·in the area.· I hope they will show you all the visual 24· ·impact and suggest the auditory impact the project will 25· ·have on recreation in this area. 26· · · · Now, regarding noise analysis, while I note in ·1· ·Table 2.2 -- "Noise Mitigation and Commitment Summary" ·2· ·table in Document CIAR 360 -- that berms will be built ·3· ·to try and contain noise at the site and vegetation ·4· ·will be left around the site as well, this will have no ·5· ·effect for people hiking at higher elevations such as ·6· ·this picture shows.· The modelling results indicate the ·7· ·possibility of a low-frequency terminal noise.· In my ·8· ·travels, I have noticed that such nocturnal noise ·9· ·travels several kilometres from oil -- from places such 10· ·as oil and gas sites in Kananaskis Country and mines in 11· ·Arizona. 12· · · · While the table in Document CIR [sic] Number 55, 13· ·Attachment 2, suggests that noise will not be 14· ·noticeable in Blairmore and Coleman except when the 15· ·loadout is operational, this will definitely not be the 16· ·case in areas well away from the highway where the 17· ·background noise is much lower. 18· · · · Now, the impact on recreation and tourism. 19· ·Addendum 6 in Document CIR Number 70 acknowledges, and 20· ·I quote:· (as read) 21· · · · Because of its varied landscapes and wildlife 22· · · · diversity, the Rocky Mountain natural region 23· · · · is also highly valued for the recreational 24· · · · opportunities it provides.· Hiking, birding, 25· · · · wildlife watching, horse riding, hunting, 26· · · · mountain biking, skiing, and snowboarding are ·1· · · · popular activities in the area, and tourism ·2· · · · is important to the economy of the region. ·3· · · · However, in Appendix A-3 of this very ·4· · · · document, the effect of the mine is stated as ·5· · · · neutral for tourism and outdoor recreation. ·6· ·Next slide, please. ·7· · · · I strongly disagree with this conclusion.· The ·8· ·sight and sound of a mine in an area where I am hiking ·9· ·considerably diminishes my outdoor experience, and I am 10· ·sure most hikers and participants in some of these 11· ·other non-motorized activities will feel the same.· The 12· ·number of people recreating in the Crowsnest Pass area 13· ·is increasing.· This applies to all activities, but in 14· ·particular the area is becoming known for hiking, 15· ·mountain biking, and mountain running.· This is very 16· ·good for the economy, but the benefits will diminish 17· ·considerably if mining comes to the area.· People come 18· ·out to this area to get away from cities, industry, and 19· ·noise.· They will much -- they will be much less likely 20· ·to come if a mine is here. 21· · · · There are also people in Crowsnest Pass developing 22· ·businesses based on quiet recreation.· Potential 23· ·clients of these businesses will not be attracted to 24· ·this area if mining affects much of it, so the 25· ·businesses will suffer.· And these business [sic] 26· ·actually cooperate with other business, so there's a ·1· ·definite multiplier effect in this -- in the community. ·2· · · · Next slide, please. ·3· · · · At meetings of the RAG, we have heard ·4· ·presentations about potential tourism that recreation ·5· ·in the Livingstone public land-use zone will bring to ·6· ·the surrounding communities, the Livingstone-Porcupine -- ·7· ·the Livingstone public land-use zone is the area ·8· ·immediately north and surrounding the community of ·9· ·Crowsnest Pass. 10· · · · Earlier this year, the provincial government 11· ·announced a ten-year tourism strategy which will 12· ·"lay the foundation to help grow tourism revenue to 13· ·20 billion by 2030", i.e., double the revenue.· There 14· ·is also the Government of Alberta's Castle region 15· ·tourism strategy for the Government of Alberta support 16· ·of tourism development, ISBN978-1-4601-4318-6, document 17· ·on open.alberta.ca. 18· · · · This proposed coal mine is likely to stop tourism 19· ·to this area and discourage even day visitors, so 20· ·not -- so not contribute to the vision for the province 21· ·or the community as stated in this document. 22· · · · Do you, Members of the Panel, choose to recreate 23· ·or go on vacation to an area with a coal mine, or do 24· ·you prefer to go to an area that does not have a coal 25· ·mine or similar industry? 26· · · · About 30 percent of properties in the municipality ·1· ·of Crowsnest Pass are owned by weekenders, people who ·2· ·come for the weekend, have a recreational property. ·3· ·Would they have bought their property if that -- they ·4· ·had known about a mine coming to the area?· How many ·5· ·people choose to have their recreational property in ·6· ·Sparwood, in the Elk Valley?· Very few. ·7· · · · This proposed mine is surrounded by the ·8· ·Livingstone public land-use zone.· Other mining ·9· ·proposals are within this zone.· Any mining activity 10· ·betrays the vision of the 2018 Livingstone public 11· ·land-use zone recreational plan, which this RAG 12· ·contributed to.· And I -- I quote this vision: 13· ·(as read) 14· · · · The scenic and well-managed landscapes of the 15· · · · Livingstone and Porcupine Hills regions and 16· · · · their abundant wildlife, thriving populations 17· · · · of native fish, inspiring vistas and unique 18· · · · Indigenous and rural ways of life will 19· · · · provide Albertans and our visitors with a 20· · · · diversity of recreational opportunities which 21· · · · connect us to the natural environment. 22· · · · Recreation users will find adventure, 23· · · · challenge, solitude, escape, and wonder that 24· · · · reflects the living diversity of Alberta's 25· · · · southern foothills and mountains and the 26· · · · stewardship ethic that sustains the ·1· · · · landscape. ·2· ·The area's linear footprint management plan has strict ·3· ·limits on the amount of land that should be disturbed ·4· ·for trails.· It seems that there is no restriction on ·5· ·the footprint of mines or roads used for exploration ·6· ·for potential future mining. ·7· · · · Next slide, please. ·8· · · · Whitebark and limber pines are endangered species ·9· ·in this province.· When I'm doing trail work on the 10· ·Great Divide Trail for the Great Divide Trail 11· ·Association -- the Great Divide Trail is about 12· ·12 kilometres to the west of the proposed project -- I 13· ·have to mark every single tree and seedling of these 14· ·species and keep the trail well away from them. 15· · · · Lake Louise ski area was fined $2.1 million for 16· ·cutting down 38 whitebark pine trees.· I sincerely hope 17· ·that if this mine gets approved, the mine operator will 18· ·do what's stated in CIR 360.· That is, they will -- 19· ·Bullet 6, 7, 8, and 9 describe what they will do.· They 20· ·basically will collect cones, extract the seeds, and 21· ·plant -- plant pine trees somewhere, and then have 22· ·trials to grow these trees and then replant them. I 23· ·don't know whether any of the other environmental 24· ·organizations that have spoken to this project know 25· ·whether this strategy is successful. 26· · · · Next slide, please. ·1· · · · This one's a -- kind of an old one.· I've had to ·2· ·scan from a -- a slide I took in 2009. ·3· · · · Now, wind speed analysis.· Table 1.5.2 in ·4· ·Addendum 10, Document CIR 251, Package 1, analyzes the ·5· ·frequency of different wind speeds at four weather ·6· ·stations, including Environment Canada's Crowsnest ·7· ·station.· For Crowsnest, it states that during the five ·8· ·years, 2010 to 2014, the wind speed was over 30 ·9· ·kilometres an hour in just 3.2 percent of the hours 10· ·during that time.· Everyone in Crowsnest Pass and their 11· ·dogs know that this is very misleading.· In fact, it is 12· ·laughable.· Environment Canada gives wind-speed 13· ·readings on their website every hour in the format of 14· ·wind northwest 20, gusting 50. 15· · · · This -- this statistic, 3.2 hours [sic], may be 16· ·technically incorrect in the fact that it's used the 17· ·first reading, the northwest 20 part of it, but takes 18· ·no account of the gusty nature of the wind here.· Just 19· ·today, September 20 -- September 19th, 2020, that's the 20· ·date I wrote this document, which has not been a windy 21· ·day, Environment Canada recorded wind gusts over 22· ·30 kilometres an hour during 11 of the 24 hours.· This 23· ·month so far -- I'm talking September -- there has been 24· ·at least one gust over 30 kilometres an hour recorded 25· ·every day.· In December 2018, the maximum wind gust 26· ·exceeded 50 kilometres an hour on 22 of these days.· So ·1· ·I have very little faith in the company's predictions ·2· ·concerning dust blowing around; and, in fact, little ·3· ·faith in the rest of the environmental assessment, much ·4· ·of which I do not understand.· Little faith in one ·5· ·aspect leads you to doubt the rest of it. ·6· · · · While the conveyor and loadout facilities may be ·7· ·totally windproof on Day 1 of production, I would not ·8· ·suspect -- I would expect that after a while, there ·9· ·will be rattles and leaks in this, and so there will be 10· ·dust blowing around from this infrastructure, and the 11· ·maintenance of it will not be a priority.· Sadly, I 12· ·cannot find historical data showing hourly wind gusts 13· ·on the Environment Canada website.· This would give a 14· ·far better analysis of the wind in the area. 15· · · · Now my last slide, please. 16· · · · While much of the rest of the world is turning 17· ·away from investment in fossil fuels, including coal of 18· ·all types, Alberta is promoting the mining and use of 19· ·it.· This is not in line with Canada's international 20· ·commitments, and by doing this, the province is showing 21· ·itself to be backward instead of forward-thinking, and 22· ·this is very likely to affect investment in general in 23· ·Alberta. 24· · · · I liken this to Alberta promoting the horse and 25· ·cart when the motorcar is on the way or fax machines in 26· ·the day of the internet. ·1· · · · I suspect others have or will deal with some of my ·2· ·other concerns, such as endangered fish, selenium, ·3· ·communities' water supply downstream of here, lack of ·4· ·appropriate royalties, profits going to Australia, ·5· ·et cetera.· So I will not duplicate their submissions. ·6· · · · In conclusion, back on that 6,500-foothill I ·7· ·referred to earlier, on December the 14th last year, I ·8· ·realized that if mines are situated in just some of the ·9· ·areas currently being, or soon to be, explored from 10· ·Isola Peak in the north to Tent Mountain in the 11· ·southwest.· All of the many hikes I have done in the 12· ·Livingstone public land-use zone would be impacted by 13· ·mining activity.· The whole area would be more like a 14· ·private industrial park instead of a public land-use 15· ·zone.· And any idea of much tourism in the area would 16· ·be gone for much longer than the lifetime -- the 17· ·proposed lifetime of the mines. 18· · · · What about life after the mines have finished -- 19· ·after the companies have finished with the mines?· What 20· ·then for our community of Crowsnest Pass?· The natural 21· ·resource that was the basis of tourism, lifestyle, and 22· ·recreation will have been compromised, and the 23· ·community will likely be in a worse state than people 24· ·think it is now.· Approval of this mine certainly could 25· ·bring very short-term prosperity to a few, but I think 26· ·it is not in the long-term interest of the community ·1· · · ·and will set a dangerous precedent for the approval of ·2· · · ·other companies' future proposals. ·3· · · · · · I hope the Panel will see from all the evidence ·4· · · ·submitted that denying the Grassy Mountain Project ·5· · · ·application is the appropriate thing to do.· I thank -- ·6· · · ·I thank the Panel for the opportunity to contribute to ·7· · · ·this process.· And that concludes my presentation. ·8· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Mr. Des Moulins. ·9· · · ·I'll just see if there's any questions for you. 10· · · · · · Mr. Ignasiak, Benga have any questions? 11· · · ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · No, sir.· Thank you. 12· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Any questions from 13· · · ·other participants? 14· · · · · · Ms. LaCasse or Ms. Kapel Holden, any questions? 15· · · ·MS. KAPEL HOLDEN:· · · · AER staff do not have any 16· · · ·questions, sir. 17· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. 18· · · · · · Mr. Lambrecht? 19· · · ·MR. LAMBRECHT:· · · · · ·I do not have any questions 20· · · ·for Mr. Des Moulins, and I thank him for his 21· · · ·presentation. 22· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. 23· · · · · · Mr. Matthews, any questions? 24· · · ·The Alberta Energy Regulator Panel Questions 25· · · ·Alistair Des Moulins 26· ·Q· ·MR. MATTHEWS:· · · · · Thank you, Mr. Des Moulins. I ·1· · · ·just have one minor question.· Great presentation. ·2· · · ·Thank you. ·3· · · · · · You mentioned Sparwood as a possible tourism ·4· · · ·destination, and you mentioned it in comparison to ·5· · · ·Grassy Mountain area.· Have you noticed a decrease in ·6· · · ·the level of tourism in the Sparwood area as a result ·7· · · ·of development in that area? ·8· · · ·MR. DES MOULINS:· · · · ·I think -- well, I haven't ·9· · · ·been -- I've only been here for six years, and the 10· · · ·mines have been around for a lot longer time.· So I 11· · · ·think it would take someone who has been in Sparwood 12· · · ·for 30 or 40 years to be able to answer that question. 13· · · ·Certainly I know -- I know of no recreational 14· · · ·properties in the Sparwood area.· There are some, I 15· · · ·believe, up in Elkford to the north which -- while 16· · · ·there are mines up there that's certainly not as much 17· · · ·really impacted as Sparwood seems to be. 18· · · ·MR. MATTHEWS:· · · · · · Thank you. 19· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. O'Gorman? 20· · · ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · · Thank you, Mr. Chair. 21· ·Q· ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · And thank you, 22· · · ·Mr. Des Moulins.· I also have one quick question for 23· · · ·you.· Thank you for that presentation.· And those are 24· · · ·some really good visuals that you presented. 25· · · · · · So I'm curious as an avid hiker in the area now 26· · · ·whether you have observed either -- either you or ·1· · · ·people that you hike with, there to be any negative ·2· · · ·impacts on your hiking experience from the current ·3· · · ·state of Grassy Mountain and its being unreclaimed from ·4· · · ·earlier mining activities? ·5· ·A· ·MR. DES MOULINS:· · · ·I think the present state of ·6· · · ·Grassy Mountain, while you can see that it has been a ·7· · · ·mining area, it doesn't stand out in the landscape ·8· · · ·quite as much as -- as Tent Mountain in the southwest ·9· · · ·does.· So while you can see it has been a mining area, 10· · · ·it's -- it's not quite as -- it doesn't stand out quite 11· · · ·as much.· Certainly the active noise from -- active 12· · · ·noise and the visuals from an active mine is 13· · · ·considerably a detriment to a hiking experience. 14· · · · · · I have hiked -- I referred to Arizona.· I've hiked 15· · · ·the Grand Enchantment Trail from Phoenix to 16· · · ·Albuquerque, and you go past the Morenci mine, which is 17· · · ·a large copper mine, and you can hear the noise of 18· · · ·that.· We could hear it for two days in our 19· · · ·long-distance hike.· So it is -- it's perhaps the 20· · · ·active nature of the mine that is the detriment to a 21· · · ·hiking experience. 22· · · · · · It's the same, actually -- well, the forest 23· · · ·industry -- logging is another example.· Up in the 24· · · ·headwaters -- I've hiked in the Beehive Natural Area in 25· · · ·the headwaters of the Oldman River, and I've been there 26· · · ·while they've been clear-cutting on the other side of ·1· ·the valley, and you hear all the trucks moving around ·2· ·and the soils and everything like that. ·3· · · · But the thing with the logging, they come and go. ·4· ·They just come, cut down their trees, and the ground -- ·5· ·the -- the area will very slowly recover, but there's ·6· ·not that sort of noise and activity that -- that this ·7· ·mine will have noise and constant activity, well, they ·8· ·say for 25 years.· Yeah.· My wife and I have doubts ·9· ·about the time scale of that -- of the proposed mine, 10· ·but it's -- it's that continuous nature that is -- is 11· ·the -- I feel the detriment to the hiking experience. 12· ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · · Okay.· Thanks very much for 13· ·that.· I have no further questions. 14· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you.· I have no 15· ·questions for you, Mr. Des Moulins, but I do want to 16· ·thank you for your participation here today and your 17· ·presentation. 18· · · · Okay.· I think it's about time for our morning 19· ·break.· It's about five after 10.· We'll take a 20· ·15-minute break.· So back at 10:20 Mountain Daylight 21· ·Time, and at that point, we'll hear from Mr. McIntyre. 22· ·(ADJOURNMENT) 23· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Welcome back, everybody. 24· · · · Next we're going to hear from David McIntyre. 25· ·And, Mr. McIntyre, we'd just like to have you sworn or 26· ·affirmed before you start. ·1· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · · I'll affirm. ·2· ·DAVID MCINTYRE, Affirmed ·3· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Is Mr. McIntyre highlighted? ·4· ·I don't actually see him at the moment.· Oh, there we ·5· ·do -- now I do.· Okay, thank you.· Go ahead, ·6· ·Mr. McIntyre. ·7· ·Presentation by David McIntyre ·8· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · · One of the most amazing things ·9· ·in our last speaker is just who walks out of the 10· ·woodwork that you don't really know and you find out 11· ·who's on the landscape.· So I just -- after all the 12· ·years that we've dealt with and waiting for this, it's 13· ·just nice to see who else is there. 14· · · · I'd like to step back 55 years just to kick this 15· ·off.· And a song came out then written by -- sung by 16· ·Simon & Garfunkel called The Sound of Silence.· And a 17· ·couple of verses from that song are this:· (as read) 18· · · · Hello darkness, my old friend.· I've come to 19· · · · talk with you again.· Because a vision softly 20· · · · creeping left its seeds while I was sleeping. 21· · · · And the vision that was planted in my brain 22· · · · still remains within the sound of silence. 23· · · · And the people bowed and prayed to the neon 24· · · · god they made, and the sign flashed out a 25· · · · warning in the words that it was forming, and 26· · · · the sign said, "The words of the prophets are ·1· · · · written on the subway walls and tenement ·2· · · · halls and whispered in the sounds of ·3· · · · silence".· To the neon god they made while ·4· · · · the people bowed and prayed. ·5· · · · I don't know exactly where to start today except ·6· ·that I will walk back a bit in time and present what I ·7· ·have given to you.· And I have this to say for a ·8· ·project that I do not believe in:· The proposed Grassy ·9· ·Mountain Coal Project is located in close proximity to 10· ·my home and is seen as a direct threat to the 11· ·enjoyment, appreciation, and recreational use of the 12· ·area I've chosen to live.· I believe it's also an 13· ·ominous threat to the already threatened aquatic and 14· ·terrestrial wildlife and a colossal downwind and 15· ·downstream threat to the Oldman watershed and the 16· ·health and well-being of more than 200,000 Albertans. 17· · · · I'm here today because I believe the proposed 18· ·project fails to serve society, poses known and obvious 19· ·health and welfare threats to the populace, needlessly 20· ·degrades the environment and its life-sustaining gift 21· ·of clear, clean water, and effectively kills all other 22· ·economic options within a region, the crown of the 23· ·continent, characterized by world-class beauty and 24· ·open-vista intrigue. 25· · · · Crowsnest Pass is both a mountain pass and the 26· ·name of an Alberta community occupying the upper ·1· ·headwaters of the Crowsnest River, the tributary of the ·2· ·Oldman River that historically was known as "the middle ·3· ·fork of the Oldman".· Crowsnest Pass, the mountain pass ·4· ·is the lowest Rocky Mountain pass between New Mexico ·5· ·and Jasper National Park.· I've written about the ·6· ·biological, ecological importance of this extremely low ·7· ·mountain pass within my statements of concern. ·8· · · · I'd like to step back here to introduce eminent ·9· ·geologist George Dawson and bring him into this 10· ·picture.· Dawson, the towering figure in Canadian 11· ·history and science, travelled widely across North 12· ·America during a lifetime of exposure to nature's most 13· ·dramatic landscapes.· Generations of international 14· ·scholars have lauded his work.· Countless Canadians 15· ·have referred to him as a national hero.· On the day of 16· ·his death, 1901, Dawson penned his last words.· He 17· ·described, among the countless places he'd been, an 18· ·1880s trip to the Crowsnest Pass:· (as read) 19· · · · Dawson, valiantly searching for a "good 20· · · · morrow", as he described it while on his 21· · · · death bed, recalled the day he camped near 22· · · · the Alberta-British Columbia border, 23· · · · witnessed a grand auroral display, then woke 24· · · · and headed east.· There on the trail shortly 25· · · · after sunrise, Dawson, riding his horse 26· · · · Samson, ascended a ridge to a high point and ·1· · · · witnessed, as he described it, "a view like ·2· · · · no other". ·3· ·Strong words. ·4· · · · Dawson's remembered "good morrow" placed him on ·5· ·the cliffs above the north shore of Crowsnest Lake. ·6· ·His poignantly described "view like no other" was the ·7· ·sublime form of Crowsnest Mountain and the Seven ·8· ·Sisters between Flathead and High Rock Ranges with the ·9· ·Livingstone Range in the distance.· This is the brand 10· ·George Dawson took to heaven.· This is the brand today 11· ·being proposed as an open-pit coal mine. 12· · · · Wow. 13· · · · The world is changing.· Climate change issues 14· ·demand that we step past the past.· The Elk River's 15· ·dead and dying trout are today's canary in British 16· ·Columbia's dirty coal pits.· These trout in death speak 17· ·to us in terms of assessing the worth of open-pit coal 18· ·mining in southwestern Alberta. 19· · · · I've invested decades in uphill conservation 20· ·efforts in southwestern Alberta.· I've worked within 21· ·the system to have threatened species receive the 22· ·protection they deserve.· I worked to create awareness 23· ·and protection for rare, one-of-a-kind landscapes.· My 24· ·efforts, considerable, have failed on every front.· All 25· ·I appear to have generated, additional government 26· ·paperwork, overtime pay for government employees who in ·1· ·the process proved inept and/or incapable of actually ·2· ·solving or rectifying any of numerous glaring concerns ·3· ·and issues brought to their attention.· I want to make ·4· ·it clear here this is not reflective of all government ·5· ·employees.· It is reflective, in my mind, of the ·6· ·managers in that -- those systems and the cabinet ·7· ·ministers responsible for the outcomes. ·8· · · · In each and every case I've been involved in, ·9· ·rampant and degrading land-use practices have 10· ·accelerated after the issue was brought to the 11· ·Government of Alberta's attention.· Each and every 12· ·issue I brought to the Government of Alberta's 13· ·attention has worsened after I acquired Government of 14· ·Alberta support.· Never has the Government of Alberta 15· ·shown itself capable of turning the tide when I placed 16· ·a concern or call for action on its boardroom table. 17· · · · The Oldman's headwaters today are at a critical, 18· ·catastrophic crossroads.· This now endangered 19· ·headwaters landscape can tolerate no further abuse 20· ·without failing to support native trout.· They're 21· ·already in grave peril, and other species, as well as 22· ·its many thousands of water-dependent downstream users. 23· · · · Based on decades of observation and attempts to 24· ·work within the Government of Alberta's ability to 25· ·address land-use issues, I do not believe there exists 26· ·within the Government of Alberta the will, the ·1· ·capacity, the credibility required to address the land ·2· ·and watershed degradation issues that out of control ·3· ·were running rampant throughout the Oldman headwaters ·4· ·before it opened, in June of this year, the mud gates ·5· ·to new, intense coal exploration throughout Alberta's ·6· ·Eastern Slopes.· It appears clear to me that prompt and ·7· ·honest intervention is required if Alberta's ·8· ·headwaters, our watershed, can be saved. ·9· · · · The last thing Alberta's headwaters landscape 10· ·needs, and is capable of tolerating, is a 11· ·land-degrading watershed destroying forest in addition 12· ·to those that before June of 2020, the Government of 13· ·Alberta repeatedly, and for decades, has proved itself 14· ·incapable of managing in a sound and credible way. 15· · · · I'm amazed that the proposed Grassy Mountain Coal 16· ·Project is today deemed to possess sufficient worth to 17· ·proceed to a public hearing.· I'm amazed that human 18· ·health issues -- doctors know these in spades -- and 19· ·concerns for sustainable water -- ask any credible 20· ·hydrologist or climatologist -- haven't derailed the 21· ·project. 22· · · · I'm amazed too that the project's potential to 23· ·generate colossal, detrimental downwind and downstream 24· ·impacts on agriculture recreation tourism, the economy, 25· ·and quality-of-life living haven't already turned wild 26· ·speculation into broad-based cries for help from the ·1· ·public. ·2· · · · The answer I suggest lies in the fact that most ·3· ·Albertans have no idea what's going on down here in the ·4· ·land down under, the land off the public radar screen. ·5· ·Media and public focus are on the pandemic and the ·6· ·economy. ·7· · · · Based on my experience, the Government of Alberta ·8· ·land use and resource extraction rules and regulations ·9· ·appear to have so little impact of preserving Alberta's 10· ·headwaters, landscape, and are protecting rare and 11· ·threatened species, they seem meaningless. 12· · · · What happens when the cold, hard facts are 13· ·considered within a picture of already over-committed, 14· ·ever-shrinking headwaters watershed's ability to 15· ·function?· What happens as climate change continues? 16· ·They add its choking grip to a growing water crisis. 17· ·Do we ignore climate change and its impact on our 18· ·lives, the lives of our descendants and the Earth as we 19· ·know it? 20· · · · It's common knowledge that the Oldman watershed is 21· ·overallocated.· It's common knowledge that 22· ·climatologists project over decades ever-declining 23· ·flows in the Oldman River. 24· · · · And the current picture:· Alberta Environment 25· ·issued last July a water shortage advisory for the 26· ·Castle, Crowsnest, and Upper Oldman Rivers. ·1· · · · I've already asked for -- believe it's important ·2· ·to reiterate for the public and for the public ·3· ·record -- that the Joint Review Panel provide the ·4· ·following:· a detailed investigative report that ·5· ·clearly and definitively conveys what happened to Gold ·6· ·Creek's missing and presumed dead cutthroat trout in ·7· ·the wake of an apparent July 30th, 2015, collapse of ·8· ·waste coal from the eastern flanks of Grassy Mountain. ·9· ·Who was responsible for this event?· What caused it? 10· ·And exactly -- and what did it do to the population of 11· ·native cutthroat trout in Gold Creek? 12· · · · You can refer to my December 8th, 2017, statement 13· ·of concern for added detail.· I asked too for a similar 14· ·document, complete with the results of an -- 15· ·independent lab-tested water samples that reveal 16· ·precisely what caused Blairmore Creek on April 13th, 17· ·2017, to appear orange and seemed to be laden with acid 18· ·runoff.· What do independent toxicologists report via 19· ·the analyzed water samples?· Who was responsible for 20· ·this event?· What created this situation?· And what 21· ·were the threats to aquatic life and public drinking 22· ·water?· And, again, you can refer to my December 8th, 23· ·2017, statement of concern for added detail. 24· · · · I'm going to move now to Turtle Mountain, which 25· ·I've already brought to your attention and add this: 26· ·My work history with scientists, geophysicists, ·1· ·geotechnical engineers engaged in the deformation ·2· ·monitoring of Turtle Mountain, producer of the 1903 ·3· ·Frank Slide, has provided me with decades of exposure ·4· ·to the ongoing threat imposed by the mountain. ·5· · · · Turtle Mountain, within its current state of ·6· ·structural collapse, is forecast to produce a future ·7· ·rock slide capable of claiming human life, crossing the ·8· ·Crowsnest River Valley and burying the Canadian Pacific ·9· ·Railway at Highway 3.· When will this occur?· No one 10· ·knows. 11· · · · It's my long-range exposure to the ongoing threat 12· ·imposed by Turtle Mountain that caused me to express 13· ·concern today for the potential for close-proximity 14· ·mine blasts from Grassy Mountain to generate seismicity 15· ·that could trigger and/or otherwise accelerate and 16· ·exacerbate the potential for Turtle Mountain's 17· ·well-known and already unstable structure to fail, and 18· ·do this in a potentially life-threatening, catastrophic 19· ·way. 20· · · · I believe it's inherently dangerous to engage in 21· ·any experiment that has the added risk of exacerbating 22· ·the known risk Turtle Mountain poses to the lives of 23· ·those who pass beneath it.· The mountain's existing 24· ·display of its potential to transform the valley and 25· ·claim human life is, I would think, more than enough to 26· ·promote profound caution, extreme restraint.· There's ·1· ·no need to add the impact of close-proximity mine ·2· ·blasts to an already-crumbling equation. ·3· · · · I believe there's still glaring errors in ·4· ·Riversdale's environmental impact assessment and what ·5· ·is presented, and the way it's presented makes me feel ·6· ·that key information is being hidden and/or that ·7· ·there's an avoidance of data that would be damaging. ·8· ·It gives me the impression of being written by someone ·9· ·who didn't feel there was a need for a comprehensive 10· ·defining report. 11· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. McIntyre, I want to 12· ·interject. 13· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · · Yeah. 14· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·At times you're speaking a 15· ·little quickly for the court reporter, I think, so -- 16· ·yeah, she's giving me the nod.· So if you can just try 17· ·and moderate your speed a little bit. 18· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · · Okay.· We're here today to 19· ·review one proposal, but we all know the scars created 20· ·by open-pit coal mining in nearby southeastern British 21· ·Columbia that are visible from space represent less 22· ·than one-half of the envisioned footprint of currently 23· ·proposed mining plays in southwestern Alberta. 24· · · · We're here today, too, to contemplate the value 25· ·that -- in the loss of water in a watershed that's 26· ·already overallocated and whilst long before the ·1· ·Government of Alberta last June opened the mud gates to ·2· ·additional rampant coal exploration in the Oldman's ·3· ·headwaters. ·4· · · · Regardless of the modelling used to assess ·5· ·open-pit mining health concerns, it appears obvious, at ·6· ·least to me, based on detailed studies conducted by ·7· ·Michael Hendryx -- and his name has already come up in ·8· ·these hearings -- that people die from a litany of ·9· ·diseases when open-pit mining for coal is used to 10· ·remove mountains.· I expect to hear more about this 11· ·during the hearing, but I suggest that everyone 12· ·involved and interested in the proposed Grassy Mountain 13· ·Coal Project listen to Michael Hendryx's Ted talk.· It 14· ·summarizes his assessments, health dangers associated 15· ·with open-pit mining for coal. 16· · · · The related concern is this:· It's my belief that 17· ·the Alberta Energy Regulator, in reviewing this 18· ·proposal, is not required to protect the public.· Is 19· ·this true?· Is the Alberta Energy Regulator free to 20· ·sanction outcomes that put people at risk? 21· · · · If Grassy Mountain is mined, it's my rough 22· ·determination that mined carbon ending up as carbon 23· ·dioxide will result in more than 10 million tonnes of 24· ·carbon dioxide per year during each year of the mine's 25· ·life.· I hope mathematicians check my math and find 26· ·that I am in error. ·1· · · · We can progress to the 40 images that I have, if ·2· ·that is okay now, and I will simply say next and -- ·3· ·when I wish to have the next one appear if that's ·4· ·permissible. ·5· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Yes, that's fine. ·6· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · · I have a number of concerns, ·7· ·and one of the things that I always find most ·8· ·interesting is that whenever we discuss a particular ·9· ·topic that we -- if we're formally dealing with this, 10· ·we go into a boardroom somewhere, we disappear from the 11· ·actual landscape that we're talking about, and we 12· ·present in words that which is really not easily 13· ·conveyed in words.· And what I wish to bring today is 14· ·just some other concerns to the fore and to show some 15· ·images that reveal both the beauty and the threats to 16· ·the landscape that I'm talking about. 17· · · · Yesterday afternoon during the Oldman Watershed's 18· ·presentation there was a significant amount of 19· ·discussion about water and where monitoring wells might 20· ·be placed and what was going on.· And that reminded me 21· ·of a letter to the editor that I wrote in 2006 that I 22· ·think is very interesting.· It's a very short read and 23· ·I'm just going to read this now. (as read) 24· · · · The Crowsnest Pass is known for its 25· · · · captivating human history -- 26· ·This is entitled "Looking Inside Each Glass of Water": ·1· ·(as read) ·2· · · · Crowsnest Pass is known for its captivating ·3· · · · human history, its aesthetic appeal, and its ·4· · · · wealth of cultural and natural resources. ·5· · · · Within this idyllic across-the-palette scene, ·6· · · · the Crowsnest River weaves a silent thread of ·7· · · · connectivity.· The river emerges as a torrent ·8· · · · of white water from limestone caves, and then ·9· · · · snakes its way through the valley it's 10· · · · created.· It zigzags through uplifted 11· · · · Mesozoic bedrock, cutting across ridges, 12· · · · chasing dips in its cascading descent across 13· · · · the dynamic thrust-faulted landscape, one of 14· · · · the most beautiful and inspiring places on 15· · · · the North American continent. 16· · · · · · ·The river is the lifeblood of the 17· · · · valley.· It's our lifeblood, and we are quick 18· · · · to embrace its multifaceted virtues.· We brag 19· · · · about its trophy trout, boast of the quality 20· · · · of the water.· We love and embrace the river. 21· · · · Surprisingly, we also seem to hate it. 22· · · · History has shown that we've abused the 23· · · · Crowsnest River.· We've cursed it, condemned 24· · · · it, trashed it, and tried to move it.· We've 25· · · · buried it in waste coal, dumped garbage into 26· · · · it, and channelled it.· We've raped the river ·1· ·a thousand times over, yet it still flows, ·2· ·weathering our abuse and scorn.· Despite the ·3· ·assaults we've made against it, the river is ·4· ·still the lifeblood of the valley. ·5· · · · As we look across this vast province, we ·6· ·see that water is becoming more precious than ·7· ·oil.· [Remember, this is written in 2006]. ·8· ·Water is emerging as the province's defining ·9· ·issue.· And while most of the province 10· ·worries about the quality of available water, 11· ·we, standing at the headwaters amid apparent 12· ·water wealth, tend to feel smug.· But here, 13· ·our virtue is also our Achilles heel.· If we 14· ·taint our virtue at its source, we defile an 15· ·entire waterway. 16· · · · Earlier this year, when Canadian Pacific 17· ·Railway expressed the plan to create a siding 18· ·within the community, I wrote to several 19· ·provincial cabinet ministers and one member 20· ·of parliament, drawing attention to existing 21· ·aquifer threats originating at Crowsnest 22· ·Lake.· Specifically, I identified the 23· ·presence of countless tons of creosote-soaked 24· ·railway ties that lie within the lake, the 25· ·visual presence of at least two industrial 26· ·compounds, also found in the lake, and likely ·1· ·coming from the Canadian Pacific Railway ·2· ·railcars, and the incongruous existence of ·3· ·CPR lube site -- CPR lube site that, directly ·4· ·above the lake, covers an estimated 100 ·5· ·metres of the railway and right-of-way with a ·6· ·thick slurry of waste grease. ·7· · · · My letter was apparently given to the ·8· ·Canadian Pacific Railway.· The company's sole ·9· ·response to my concerns appears to be the 10· ·posting of a huge sign near the railway 11· ·tracks at the east end of the lake.· The sign 12· ·proclaims the railway to be private property 13· ·and states:· "No trespassing" and "violators 14· ·will be prosecuted".· It would appear that 15· ·CPR, anywhere and everywhere, is proclaiming 16· ·the vision that it, contrary to myth, legend, 17· ·and more than a century of written songs, 18· ·controls the public's ability to cross and to 19· ·walk along its railway right-of-way.· But 20· ·songs aside, what has the CPR done to remove 21· ·the health threats that I've identified? 22· ·Seemingly nothing. 23· · · · I've recently learned that another 24· ·company conducting business within the 25· ·community is responsible for the spillage of 26· ·two chemicals into the Crowsnest aquifer. ·1· ·The chemicals: sulfolane and ·2· ·diisopropanolamine.· The company: Devon ·3· ·Canada Corporation.· The location: Devon ·4· ·Canada's gas plant.· Sulfolane and ·5· ·diisopropanolamine [the first is a solvent ·6· ·and the second is a chemically active amine] ·7· ·are used to scrub hydrogen sulphide, carbonyl ·8· ·sulphide, carbon disulphide, and carbon ·9· ·dioxide from the primary product, saleable 10· ·gas. 11· · · · These same two chemicals have the 12· ·potential to migrate.· And thus contaminate 13· ·adjacent environments, soil groundwater and 14· ·surface water, particularly if they are 15· ·released into an aquifer, the permeable zone 16· ·of rock, sand, and gravel through which 17· ·underground water flows.· Envision the 18· ·Crowsnest River as an aboveground 19· ·manifestation of a much greater quantity of 20· ·water that flows, unseen, beneath it. 21· · · · Sulfolane and diisopropanolamine, each 22· ·water soluble, are absorbed by living plants, 23· ·and are, therefore, a potential health threat 24· ·to anything that eats these plants, or eats 25· ·animals that have ingested these plants.· The 26· ·threat, therefore, encompasses the entire ·1· · · · food chain, extending from fish and ·2· · · · salamanders to elk, moose, grizzly bears, and ·3· · · · people. ·4· · · · · · ·I've talked with a few people about the ·5· · · · proceeding and I've worked to gather facts. ·6· · · · Perhaps the most startling aspect of these ·7· · · · discussions has been that rumours suggest ·8· · · · there are additional concerns, further ·9· · · · threats. 10· · · · · · ·Who knows what, and for how long?· Who 11· · · · has withheld information from the public? 12· · · · And what, exactly, has been withheld?· Even 13· · · · your hairdresser doesn't know for sure. 14· · · · Direct questions need to be asked.· Honest 15· · · · answers need to be given, and remedial action 16· · · · needs to begin. 17· · · · · · ·It's not my intent to needlessly alarm 18· · · · the valley's populus.· I do, however, believe 19· · · · that society has a legal, ethical, and moral 20· · · · right to know the potential threat imposed 21· · · · when people reach for a glass of water. 22· · · · Similarly, we, as society, have the right to 23· · · · expect uncompromising standards from our 24· · · · citizens, as well as from the corporations 25· · · · conducting business here. 26· ·I have one other thing that came out as a result of ·1· ·Mr. Robyn Campbell, who spoke yesterday, with the Coal ·2· ·Association of Canada and acknowledged lobbyist for the ·3· ·coal -- the promotion of coal.· And what I have is ·4· ·satirical.· I never published this anywhere.· And yet ·5· ·it contains, I think, very telling information, and it ·6· ·includes direct quotes from cabinet ministers.· And the ·7· ·ad goes like this:· (as read) ·8· · · · Alberta, Canada - we're open for business ... ·9· · · · any business, anywhere, anytime. 10· · · · · · ·Hey, Mr. Investor, have you got a 11· · · · development proposal that won't fly in your 12· · · · province, state, or nation?· Why don't you 13· · · · come to Alberta? 14· · · · · · ·We don't impose constraints.· We don't 15· · · · care about natural capital.· We want 16· · · · development.· And we want it at any cost. 17· · · · Don't worry.· Your project doesn't even have 18· · · · to be profitable, for you, or for us.· There 19· · · · isn't an industrial plan that our government 20· · · · won't approve.· There isn't a landscape, 21· · · · endangered species, or heritage view that we 22· · · · won't sacrifice. 23· · · · · · ·Here's what former Alberta Sustainable 24· · · · Resource Development Minister Mel Knight said 25· · · · about a proposed strip mine, "You can't stop 26· · · · the province and wait for plans.· There is ·1· · · · opportunities for development in the Eastern ·2· · · · Slopes". ·3· · · · · · ·And don't worry about any other ·4· · · · Government of Alberta department getting in ·5· · · · your way.· Former Alberta Environment ·6· · · · Minister Rob Renner put it this way, "It's ·7· · · · not the role of Alberta Environment to ·8· · · · advocate on behalf of the environment". ·9· ·I believe Mr. Campbell was a former Alberta environment 10· ·minister.· That is not part of what I wrote. 11· ·(as read) 12· · · · Here in Alberta, we don't change with the 13· · · · times.· Here in Alberta, acting on behalf of 14· · · · the environment isn't anybody's job. 15· · · · · · ·Today, entrenching this position, [and 16· · · · this is written in 19 -- or 2012, I believe] 17· · · · Premier Alison Redford steps forward to grab 18· · · · the reins.· She speaks her mind and stands in 19· · · · strong support of industrial logging. 20· · · · Redford wants to see the headwaters' forests 21· · · · clear-cut, regardless of the cost to society, 22· · · · regardless of the pleas from the populace, 23· · · · regardless of the petitions calling for the 24· · · · province to stop -- to adopt science-based 25· · · · practices. 26· · · · · · ·Premier Redford has found our future and ·1· ·our past.· She embraces last century's view, ·2· ·an eroded and treeless land.· She knows that ·3· ·clear-cutting Alberta's priceless heritage ·4· ·headwaters' landscape is the way to do -- and ·5· ·demonstrate leadership, the way to do ·6· ·business as it's always been done, to boldly ·7· ·go where we've gone before.· It's the way to ·8· ·praise yesterday's tree stumps as a vision ·9· ·for a better tomorrow. 10· · · · So come to Alberta, where the merits of 11· ·your project will never be questioned, and 12· ·where value judgments aren't part of how we 13· ·do business.· Even if your scheme is only a 14· ·stock market scam, we're okay with that.· And 15· ·if you face opposition, sue 'em.· [My wife 16· ·has brought this up].· Here in Alberta there 17· ·are absolutely no restrictions barring 18· ·opponent-silencing lawsuits. 19· · · · Coming to Alberta is like stepping back 20· ·in time.· It's a return to the good old days, 21· ·when concerns about the environment didn't 22· ·get in the way of development. 23· · · · If you're sick and tired of unwanted 24· ·regulations, or other foolish obstacles, come 25· ·to Alberta.· Help make Alberta the Number 1 26· ·choice for unrestrained development. ·1· · · · · · ·Don't worry about future generations. ·2· · · · Your time and Alberta's time is now. ·3· ·The slide that's on the screen is an imprint of a ·4· ·grizzly bear track.· Whenever a grizzly bear dies in, ·5· ·say, Banff National Park, we hear about it.· Several ·6· ·grizzly bears have died in recent months on Highway 22 ·7· ·just to the east of my house.· At least one more has ·8· ·died in close proximity to Highway 3 just south of my ·9· ·house.· It's about a testament to what -- the travesty 10· ·of what's going on around here that I would imagine 11· ·almost nobody knows about.· But it also shows the 12· ·incredible richness of the land. 13· · · · Next.· I'm asking for the next slide, just to be 14· ·clear on that. 15· · · · We're looking here at a -- at a Google Earth 16· ·image, and this is a piece of what George Dawson saw in 17· ·the late 1800s as seen from space today.· And we're 18· ·looking down on Grassy Mountain which is labelled in 19· ·black there, just a little bit -- well, let me start at 20· ·the very bottom.· We're looking at Turtle Mountain at 21· ·the very bottom, the star that you see there at the 22· ·Frank Slide, and then to the upper portion of that 23· ·image is the southern end of the Livingstone Range. 24· · · · And the thing that I would just bring in here is 25· ·the incredibly small piece of landscape that we're 26· ·looking at.· Grassy Mountain appears in the upper ·1· ·portion of this image, just to the left of the ·2· ·Livingstone Range, and to the extreme left and the ·3· ·upper and going out of the image is Crowsnest Mountain. ·4· ·So we're looking at approximately 20 kilometres east to ·5· ·west across this view. ·6· · · · And let's go to the next image. ·7· · · · This is just a little bit north of Crowsnest ·8· ·Mountain, and we're looking at the Continental Divide ·9· ·along the left side of this image.· Tornado Pass is the 10· ·green area that goes through that mountain range and 11· ·exits out the left side of that picture.· And in the 12· ·extreme upper left portion of this image, you can see a 13· ·little sort of brown area, and that, interestingly, is 14· ·the Fording mine.· My wife and I climbed Gould Dome 15· ·some years ago, and Gould Dome is the mountain peak 16· ·that is sort of in the upper centre portion of the 17· ·picture.· It's the southernmost one, the lowest one. 18· ·What we're looking down at here is the incredible 19· ·footprint of logging in the headwaters of the Oldman. 20· ·That you can see.· What you can see from this summit of 21· ·Gould Dome is you can actually look across through the 22· ·continental divide there and see that Fording operation 23· ·where the monster trucks that are working over there 24· ·appear almost like little ants on the landscape. 25· · · · Gould Dome is higher than Crowsnest Mountain, and 26· ·it actually is a vision-quest site -- one of the ·1· ·vision-quest sites in this area where prehistoric ·2· ·people climbed and looked out at the peak -- in this ·3· ·case, Crowsnest and the Seven Sisters -- and from ·4· ·Gould, it's the only one of these sites that I'm aware ·5· ·of that looks down on Crowsnest Mountain because it's ·6· ·higher than Crowsnest Mountain. ·7· · · · Within this same landscape that we're looking at ·8· ·what you see is the logging impact.· What you don't see ·9· ·is that there are approximately 2,000 kilometres of -- 10· ·acknowledged by the Alberta government -- roads on this 11· ·landscape, and what you clearly do not see are the 12· ·incredible number of additional roads that appeared on 13· ·this landscape.· So all the modelling that you saw 14· ·yesterday was based on the known, and I would say the 15· ·unknown is absolutely staggering. 16· · · · Next. 17· · · · This is a view from very close to my house, 18· ·looking at Grassy Mountain, but not seeing it because 19· ·of the Livingstone Range, which happens to be between 20· ·my home and Grassy Mountain.· Livingstone Range is 21· ·strikingly beautiful, eastern outlier of the Rockies, a 22· ·knife-edge blade.· It's also known around the world as 23· ·having the largest concentration of migrating golden 24· ·eagles.· I'll perhaps talk a bit more about that, but I 25· ·would just say this, that the significance of that, 26· ·while known today, was not even known 20 years ago.· We ·1· ·know so little about the land that we're dealing with ·2· ·here, and yet we seem to go ahead -- we -- as I have ·3· ·said before, we tend to know more about what's under ·4· ·the ground than we know about what's on the ground. ·5· · · · Next. ·6· · · · This is another view from a very similar area. I ·7· ·believe the year was 19 -- or -- I'm sorry, 2008 that ·8· ·the Municipal District of Pincher Creek designated a ·9· ·heritage viewscape, which was subsequently endorsed by 10· ·the province of Alberta and subsequently endorsed by 11· ·the federal government.· This viewscape looks out at 12· ·the landscape that you see in this picture from very 13· ·close to my home. 14· · · · And the interesting thing about this landscape, 15· ·too, is that this is a virtual crossroads.· We have 16· ·heard from -- in this hearing, we have heard from the 17· ·Town of Pincher Creek.· We have not heard from the 18· ·Municipal District of Pincher Creek.· We have heard 19· ·from the Municipal District of Ranchland.· We have not 20· ·yet heard from the Municipality of Crowsnest Pass.· But 21· ·the interesting thing for the Panel to be aware of is 22· ·the positioning of these jurisdictions on this 23· ·landscape because we are virtually looking out at the 24· ·point on the land where the Municipality of 25· ·Crowsnest Pass meets the Municipal District of 26· ·Ranchland meets the Municipal District of ·1· ·Pincher Creek.· And so we have a rather chaotic, ·2· ·perhaps, and different vision, view of this. ·3· · · · But this reminds me, too, the people of ·4· ·Pincher Creek, not too long ago, identified -- the ·5· ·people of the Municipal District of Pincher Creek ·6· ·identified in a values assessment for the community ·7· ·what they thought was the most important thing.· And I ·8· ·don't have the actual document in front of me right ·9· ·now, but the gist of that was they loved the peace and 10· ·quiet.· They loved the tranquility, and virtually 11· ·everything that they said they loved about the 12· ·Municipal District of Pincher Creek had to do with, 13· ·what you might say, the scene you're looking at here. 14· · · · Next. 15· · · · This land on the eastern side of the Livingstone 16· ·Range is kind of the Serengeti side, I would say, of 17· ·the Livingstone Range.· We have herds of elk. I 18· ·mentioned that we have grizzly bears, obviously, and 19· ·yet we seem to be losing them in colossal numbers.· We 20· ·have herds of moose here, perhaps one of the densest 21· ·concentrations in Alberta.· And this land is something 22· ·that I would just like to bring into, in essence, the 23· ·boardroom that we're in today.· This is what I look out 24· ·at.· I do not look out at pieces of paper, and I don't 25· ·look out at open-pit coal mines. 26· · · · Next. ·1· · · · This is that same stark landscape.· This is a ·2· ·limber pine in death that is still, I would say, one of ·3· ·the most beautiful trees that -- and beautiful views ·4· ·that one can imagine here covered with hoarfrost.· This ·5· ·is right outside my window. ·6· · · · Next. ·7· · · · This is another limber pine, and, as has been ·8· ·mentioned earlier in these hearings, we have on the ·9· ·landscape that Benga Riversdale is proposing to strip 10· ·mine -- we have both limber pine endangered species, 11· ·and we have whitebark pine endangered species.· I'll 12· ·talk more about these. 13· · · · But I would also point out that perhaps 30 years 14· ·ago I brought to the Government of Alberta's attention 15· ·that we have even rarer trees on this landscape, that 16· ·the forest, particularly in the headwaters of the 17· ·Crowsnest River in and around where Benga proposes to 18· ·strip mine Grassy Mountain, we have what I have 19· ·referred to as "Alberta's rarest, most diverse, most 20· ·threatened forest".· You saw it in that Google Earth 21· ·image, what's happening to that forest. 22· · · · We have within that forest Alberta 's only 23· ·ponderosa pines, western white pines, and we have the 24· ·easternmost western red cedars in Canada.· This doesn't 25· ·seem to matter.· This -- logging this forest just goes 26· ·on.· I don't think that most Albertans are even aware ·1· ·that this forest exists because, regardless of what ·2· ·I've tried to do to promote its existence, it just ·3· ·doesn't seem to register. ·4· · · · Next. ·5· · · · This is a view taken maybe two weeks ago, maybe a ·6· ·little longer, from a bit north of my home, and this is ·7· ·taken from the crest of the Livingstone Range.· And ·8· ·here my wife, Monica Field, who you heard speak earlier ·9· ·is looking out from a point near a mountain called 10· ·"Thunder Mountain" on the living -- on the crest of the 11· ·Livingstone Range toward Crowsnest and the Seven 12· ·Sisters.· Spiritual power-peak, Crowsnest, and the 13· ·Seven Sisters just to the -- just to the -- the north 14· ·of it, and these two peaks show up in her view here, 15· ·and they're just to her immediate left.· That's 16· ·Crowsnest to the -- slightly to the left of her and 17· ·then, closer to her, the Seven Sisters.· Between her 18· ·shoulders and her elbows, that is Grassy Mountain.· And 19· ·we noticed the day that we were up there -- as eagles 20· ·flew past us and other birds flew past us, we noticed, 21· ·too, that there were new road scars on the north end of 22· ·Grassy Mountain, which is home to Daisy Creek, which 23· ·flows to the north.· We talked at some length about 24· ·Gold Creek and Blairmore Creeks, each with populations 25· ·of native cutthroat trout.· Daisy Creek flowing from 26· ·the -- to the north and from the flanks of Grassy ·1· ·Mountain enters the Oldman River at this point as well. ·2· · · · And I'll say next.· Next.· Thank you. ·3· · · · This image is taken almost within -- within a ·4· ·stone's throw of the previous image, and this looks ·5· ·over onto the east side of the Livingstone Range into ·6· ·the upper headwaters of the Todd Creek Valley, another ·7· ·home to pure strain westslope cutthroat trout.· Small ·8· ·portion there of that creek still has native ·9· ·cutthroats.· And looking out in the distance, we see 10· ·the Porcupine Hills, and left of centre we see 11· ·Whaleback Ridge, a well-known area that's there.· We 12· ·also are looking at but can't see in this case -- we're 13· ·looking over the Oldman River valley. 14· · · · Next. 15· · · · This is looking down on the Oldman River to the 16· ·immediate north of the area that was just pictured in 17· ·the last image, and not too far downstream from the 18· ·confluence of Daisy Creek and the Oldman River.· This 19· ·is at a point -- near a point called "The Gap" which is 20· ·the water gap through which the Oldman River has carved 21· ·its course through the Livingstone Range.· In the 22· ·spring, you can see harlequin ducks -- breeding pairs 23· ·of harlequin ducks, and this particular stretch of 24· ·water -- very rare ducks not doing well in Alberta -- 25· ·critical habitat for them.· To the immediate east of 26· ·here, we have long-billed curlew, Sprague's pipits.· We ·1· ·have a -- a number of birds that we could say are ·2· ·pretty rare.· We also have what I believe to be the ·3· ·westernmost in Alberta breeding ferruginous hawks, ·4· ·another species that is not doing well.· So this is ·5· ·that landscape.· This is the Oldman River as it comes ·6· ·through The Gap to the immediate north of the proposed ·7· ·mine on Grassy Mountain. ·8· · · · Next.· May we -- thank you. ·9· · · · This, again, close to home.· This is my wife 10· ·looking out at the -- at the Livingstone Range, a place 11· ·we call "Rock City", just a -- a beautiful area.· This 12· ·is what we have today.· This is what we look out at. 13· ·And this is what -- I find this interesting.· When 14· ·Mr. Campbell was speaking yesterday, his government, in 15· ·2014 -- I believe he was a cabinet minister at that 16· ·point in time, and I believe he was involved in this -- 17· ·was the creation of the South Saskatchewan Regional 18· ·Plan.· The Livingstone Range that we're looking at here 19· ·and which we've been looking at in other images was 20· ·identified in that plan recommended as a wildland 21· ·provincial park, and a protective notation was placed 22· ·on that; and that, today, still sits in limbo because 23· ·nothing has been done to protect that which I'm showing 24· ·you today, that which my wife in this image is looking 25· ·out at. 26· · · · Next. ·1· · · · Same general area, fall scenery, magical ·2· ·landscape, migrating eagles, silence, beauty. ·3· · · · Next. ·4· · · · Tree species in this area, we have some of the -- ·5· ·perhaps the largest Douglas firs in this forest that I ·6· ·describe as being "Alberta's rarest and most diverse". ·7· ·There are numerous Douglas firs, but they grow in ·8· ·monumental proportions for Alberta here.· Not as big as ·9· ·their British Columbia counterparts, but here is a tree 10· ·that's approximately 2 metres in diameter, Douglas fir. 11· ·How old is it?· I don't know.· But it's -- it's pretty 12· ·old.· Typically when we start looking at the age of 13· ·trees, though, we find that it isn't often the biggest 14· ·trees that are the oldest, but I would say this tree is 15· ·probably at least 330 to 350 years old.· Might be 500 16· ·years old.· Could be 600 years old.· Some of the oldest 17· ·Douglas firs on this landscape are 650.· That's known 18· ·Douglas firs because we haven't cored probably near ly 19· ·as many as we should.· We don't know the true picture. 20· · · · Next. 21· · · · Far more significant on this landscape as far as, 22· ·sort of, bread-and-butter existence and holding the 23· ·earth together are the limber pines and whitebark 24· ·pines.· This is a limber pine, and the interesting 25· ·thing with -- with the limber pine and whitebark pine 26· ·in addition to their bonsai beauty, their intrigue, is ·1· ·the fact that many of these trees look like shrubs; and ·2· ·people just kind of think, Well, that's no forest, and, ·3· ·seemingly, that's what the Alberta government, at least ·4· ·for decades, has thought.· They tried to eradicate the ·5· ·whitebark pines in many cases, only to at least protect ·6· ·them, seemingly, on paper in the last long -- maybe a ·7· ·long decade ago. ·8· · · · The thing that's interesting about these trees ·9· ·ecologically is that they have relatively large cones, 10· ·both of them, and that the seeds within these trees are 11· ·not winged seeds as most pines have, but these are just 12· ·little stones, so to speak.· These are referred to as 13· ·"stone pines" in some places.· And in -- I find this 14· ·really interesting.· I -- I talked with Charlie 15· ·Russell -- the late Charlie Russell years ago after his 16· ·work in Kamchatka, and many people attribute the wealth 17· ·of, say, brown bears or grizzly bears in Alaska or 18· ·Kamchatka, where he was working, to be attributable to 19· ·the salmon that are there.· And Charlie told me 20· ·something that was really interesting because that 21· ·particular area also has stone pines -- has more 22· ·species of them.· But Charlie told me that all the 23· ·bears eat stone pine seeds, and only some of the bears 24· ·ate salmon.· And I thought that that was a telling and 25· ·interesting thing.· And it's well-known in North 26· ·America that areas such as Yellowstone that due to the ·1· ·emergence of the white pine blister rust, which is a ·2· ·European pathogen that's come to North America and done ·3· ·great damage to all of what we call the "five needle ·4· ·pines" -- that's pines that have five needles per ·5· ·fascicle -- that the -- the interesting there is it was ·6· ·know that the bears were eating copious quantities of ·7· ·these but that all those seeds typically were found in ·8· ·squirrel meat.· So the squirrels actually collected the ·9· ·cones, the bears then stole the cones, so to speak, 10· ·from the squirrels. 11· · · · But here on the Livingstone Range and around it, 12· ·what my wife and I observed, documented, and later 13· ·presented to both whitebark and limber pine studying 14· ·people was that we were watching bears eating these 15· ·pine cones. 16· · · · We can go to the next image. 17· · · · We were watching bears eat these pine cones as if 18· ·they were a berry crop.· So they're walking up to these 19· ·trees, and much as they would go after a Saskatoon bush 20· ·or huckleberry bush, they would be eating cones right 21· ·off the tree because these cones are at, I would say, 22· ·even ankle height sometimes on these trees. 23· · · · And we're looking down here at a limber pine. 24· ·This is, sort of, typical, you might say, of the limber 25· ·pines and this abusive wind-tortured environment where 26· ·the wind shapes the growth of trees.· This is not the ·1· ·environment that Benga Riversdale seems to say exists ·2· ·over there, and yet this is exactly what their trees ·3· ·on -- or I shouldn't say "their trees" -- the trees on ·4· ·Grassy Mountain look like.· This is a little tree that ·5· ·might be all of 2 metres in length, but instead of ·6· ·growing up, it's growing along the ground.· And the ·7· ·other side of the picture here is how old is this tree? ·8· ·And I don't know exactly, but I have cored a number of ·9· ·these trees.· I have also from dead -- once on the 10· ·landscape, I have picked up at -- at -- branches or 11· ·trunks, you might say, that might be 10 centimetres in 12· ·diameter and discovered that the tree was 300 years old 13· ·or 500 years old or 600 years old. 14· · · · Next. 15· · · · You're just going to see -- when this comes up, 16· ·you'll see just another example of limber pine on this 17· ·landscape.· So here is yet another tree.· How old is 18· ·this tree?· Well, I'd just throw out a rough guess. 19· ·It's probably on the order of 600 years old.· Yet if 20· ·you look across this tree and you're a forester, you 21· ·don't see it. 22· · · · Next. 23· · · · Here's another.· Amazing thing.· And yet this 24· ·is -- this is what covers the land right here.· The 25· ·forest that I'm looking out at as I'm talking to you, 26· ·on the ridge to the east of my home here in the Rock ·1· ·Creek Valley on the east side of the Livingstone Range, ·2· ·this is what the trees look like here. ·3· · · · Next. ·4· · · · Whenever this next slide comes up, what you'll see ·5· ·is -- is just another example of this.· And what you ·6· ·will see in this one in the foreground, you can see ·7· ·some of these are cones that are virtually at ground ·8· ·level.· This is a limber pine forest right here, right ·9· ·where I'm speaking from. 10· · · · Next. 11· · · · This is a cross-section of a limber pine tree 12· ·trunk, and in this case, it's a trunk that's probably 13· ·on the order of 20 centimetres across, something like 14· ·8 inches, I'd guess, rather a large one in some 15· ·respects.· This tree is approximately 550 years old. 16· ·You can see the growth rings on this tree.· You get 17· ·some idea of that.· But what happens is that in this 18· ·particularly poor quality environment, so to speak, 19· ·these trees are ekeing out an existence on this 20· ·environment, but in some cases we don't even get growth 21· ·rings in a particular year.· And we've talked a bit -- 22· ·we're -- we're constantly talking about water, and I 23· ·would say, too, that we live in -- in a -- in, in 24· ·essence, here a -- a near desert.· We get variable 25· ·amounts of rain.· We're -- we're almost constantly in 26· ·what we call a -- or look at as a -- as a drought ·1· ·condition here, and we're wondering if we're going to ·2· ·have enough water as it is to sustain us. ·3· · · · Next. ·4· · · · What you'll see when this next image comes up -- ·5· ·you're just going to see an image of a -- of a ·6· ·whitebark pine tree growing here at the absolute ·7· ·eastern outlier of its -- its range, and Grassy ·8· ·Mountain is very close to the eastern outlier -- ·9· ·outlying range of that particular species.· And so 10· ·these are these cones, purple in the case of the -- of 11· ·the whitebark pine, that are typically collected by a 12· ·native bird here, the Clark's nutcracker, and it's the 13· ·Clark's nutcracker that historically has disseminated 14· ·the seeds.· They cache them in the ground all over the 15· ·place typically after forest fires, and then these 16· ·seeds grow up to produce the forest that, up until, 17· ·well, maybe the last 10 or 20 years here, we're 18· ·actually doing very well and are suddenly dying right 19· ·in front of us because of the white pine blister rust 20· ·primarily but, secondarily, because of warming that is 21· ·allowing the mountain pine beetle to infest and get 22· ·into forests that it traditionally did not reach 23· ·elevation ally.· It did not get up to the elevations 24· ·where the whitebark pine were growing 'cause they're 25· ·growing typically right at upper timber line. 26· · · · Next. ·1· · · · This is a yellow mountain lady slipper. ·2· · · · And you can go right to the next slide. ·3· · · · Mountain lady slipper is the -- is the one you'll ·4· ·see next.· I've tried since 2006 to get what appears to ·5· ·be the largest population of the mountain lady ·6· ·slipper -- the others are in the same general ·7· ·landscape -- protected, and I've been completely ·8· ·unsuccessful in doing this.· I brought this to the ·9· ·attention of the Government of Alberta.· This is just 10· ·one example of what hasn't been done.· We have a high 11· ·marking area for dirt bikers here, who -- after I 12· ·brought this to the attention of the government, the 13· ·situation's become much worse; and this, what may be 14· ·the largest or was the largest population of mountain 15· ·lady slippers -- rare orchid here in Alberta -- has 16· ·been just chewed up by dirt bikes. 17· · · · Next. 18· · · · One example of the other species that exist here 19· ·on the landscape.· I mentioned the golden eagle 20· ·migration, which is ongoing as we -- as we talk.· This 21· ·is a sharp-shinned hawk.· Just for the record, I would 22· ·point out that more than one thousand golden eagles 23· ·alone have been counted just to the west of my house in 24· ·a single day, and sharp-shinned hawks are on this 25· ·landscape.· We have thousands of other birds going 26· ·through.· We have huge influxes now of gray-crowned ·1· ·rosy finches.· Other birds coming from northern Canada ·2· ·that winter in this area are entering it as we speak ·3· ·and are right around my home as I'm talking to you. ·4· · · · Next. ·5· · · · This is an example of weathering.· This is a fence ·6· ·post on the eastern flanks of the Livingstone Range, ·7· ·and it appears to be sandblasted.· And, in effect, it ·8· ·has been except that it's ice blasted.· This is what ·9· ·happens on this landscape in the winter with hurricane 10· ·forest winds.· This is why the trees lie flat on the 11· ·ground.· This is what we're looking at here as far as 12· ·hostile conditions.· This post is much thicker, the 13· ·portion of it that's in the ground and the portion 14· ·that's aboveground, because the fence post has been so 15· ·eaten by wind-blown ice. 16· · · · Next. 17· · · · This is simply a posting, in this case, Lethbridge 18· ·news from December 29th of -- of a couple years ago. 19· ·And the last paragraph there, which I just caught a 20· ·little bit of, talks about a wind warning being out. 21· ·Wind warnings are a -- a way of life here.· Huge grass 22· ·fires have occurred in this area in December, kind of 23· ·like California, although we don't quite believe it. 24· ·And in this particular case, they've recorded winds of 25· ·over a hundred kilometres per hour, which I would say 26· ·on this landscape is nothing.· My wife, Monica Field, ·1· ·has talked to you a little bit about that.· I would say ·2· ·that I have been out in the summer with people -- I ·3· ·have -- my wife and I have been skidded along a ·4· ·mountain ridge while we were seated by the wind, and we ·5· ·were afraid we were going to get blown over a cliff. I ·6· ·have hiked with people and watched them blown into the ·7· ·air next to me, raised above my head, and then slammed ·8· ·down into the rocks.· The wind here has to be ·9· ·experienced to be believed. 10· · · · Here we have a sign breaking at 181 kilometres per 11· ·hour.· I have provided the Panel with reliable weather 12· ·data from immediately north of my home by a neighbour. 13· ·You have that at your disposal. 14· · · · Next. 15· · · · We're looking at here a portion of the TC Energy 16· ·pipeline, TransCanada pipeline and -- and its previous 17· ·name.· This is approximately 10 kilometres north of my 18· ·home, and it's approximately 10 kilometres east of 19· ·Grassy Mountain.· The interesting thing here is it 20· ·looks pretty stark.· What this represents is what I 21· ·believe to be almost -- its -- its 29-year attempt at 22· ·reclamation by TC Energy, and they failed.· But in 23· ·failing, what they have done or what a contractor has 24· ·done for them or what someone has benevolently done to 25· ·help them -- I don't know the case here -- is that 26· ·these -- this external force has come in and excavated ·1· ·living endangered limber pines; and then after ·2· ·excavating these living trees, they have moved those ·3· ·living trees dead over to this landscape and used the ·4· ·skeletal remains of these trees in an attempt to hold ·5· ·things together enough to get other things to grow. ·6· · · · Next. ·7· · · · What you're going to see when this image comes up ·8· ·is just the close-up of the very same image you're ·9· ·looking at now.· This shows more distinctly these trees 10· ·that once living -- and I have pictures of these living 11· ·trees being moved.· They -- they were not.· They had 12· ·leaves on them; they had cones on them when they were 13· ·moved.· This shows these trees in death being used 14· ·to -- in an attempt to reclaim the area.· And the 15· ·interesting thing here is that what's -- Riversdale 16· ·Benga is proposing, I believe, is to -- is to somehow 17· ·collect seeds and do this from a forest that they plan 18· ·to kill.· So they are planning to do in a wholesale way 19· ·what we see being done here, and in, what you might 20· ·say, a relatively minor way.· So instead of doing this 21· ·over just 4 or 500 metres of landscape, we're going to 22· ·do an entire mountain this way.· We're going to kill 23· ·all the 500-ish-year-old trees on this mountaintop, and 24· ·we're going to collect the seeds from them, and we're 25· ·going to hope we can maybe plant them around Medicine 26· ·Hat or Taber or somewhere and get them to grow. ·1· · · · Next. ·2· · · · This shows a 2018 image of the Kenow fire on ·3· ·Lakeview Ridge in Waterton Lakes National Park.· And ·4· ·fires are a part of the landscape here.· They're also a ·5· ·frightening part of the landscape.· And what we have is ·6· ·approximately a hundred years of fire suppression that ·7· ·we have paid probably billions of dollars for, and what ·8· ·we've actually created by suppressing fires on this ·9· ·landscape outside of the national park is that we have 10· ·created a situation that is far worse than the 11· ·situation that would have existed if we had just left 12· ·things alone. 13· · · · The other stark reality of this is the potential 14· ·for a coal mine because of increased activity to 15· ·initiate fires that wouldn't otherwise occur.· So we 16· ·have an existing threat.· We are going to add to that 17· ·threat.· There's a mountain in Australia called 18· ·"Burning Mountain" that I believe -- it's a coal seam 19· ·that's been burning for, I believe, 6,000 years. 20· ·There's a town in Pennsylvania called Centralia that 21· ·was a thriving community, and coal seams caught on fire 22· ·there.· And those fires in Centralia now were emitting 23· ·toxis [sic] -- toxious [sic] -- toxic waste fumes, are 24· ·expected to burn for -- I believe it's a -- it's a 25· ·couple hundred more years. 26· · · · Next. ·1· · · · This would appear to be, perhaps, a mountain ·2· ·avalanche.· And it is, except it isn't.· This is an ·3· ·image taken very close to my home.· It's just -- I can ·4· ·look right out my window as I'm talking to you, and I ·5· ·see the landscape where this occurred, and this is in ·6· ·the valley bottom at roughly the same elevation as Gold ·7· ·Creek on the southern flanks of Grassy Mountain.· This ·8· ·is what happens here in the winter.· And this reminds ·9· ·me, too, that after I had expressed some water concerns 10· ·and dust concerns, I received a call some years ago now 11· ·from some snowmobilers living a fair distance from me 12· ·here.· But they were from Nanton, and they had been 13· ·snowmobiling in the area around Tornado Pass, which I 14· ·showed you in one of those first Google Images -- 15· ·actually, the second of those.· And they had a 16· ·snowmobile that got stuck that day in the snow, and 17· ·they had to excavate it.· And they called me because 18· ·they'd read an article that I'd written, and they 19· ·called me because in excavating the snow machine in 20· ·Tornado Pass, which is immediately east of the Fording 21· ·mine in British Columbia which I showed you a glimpse 22· ·of there and mentioned that it was there, they were 23· ·astonished by the dust that was in that snowpack.· They 24· ·went down through horizons of dust because they had to 25· ·dig deeply to excavate that machine, and what they 26· ·found was not what they expected; and it was the dust ·1· ·in that snow that caused them to call me. ·2· · · · Next. ·3· · · · This is Rock Creek, which is a stone's throw from ·4· ·where I'm sitting.· This was taken a few years ago. ·5· ·Rock Creek, like Gold Creek, like Blairmore Creek is ·6· ·one of those maybe 40-some streams still harbouring ·7· ·pure strain westslope cutthroat trout.· The Government ·8· ·of Alberta, concerned about this, brought in a ·9· ·fisheries biologist, and the attempt here, successful, 10· ·was on our property, my wife's and my property, to 11· ·sample 30 fish within a 300-metre stretch of that 12· ·stream. 13· · · · Next. 14· · · · So you're looking down in that image and in -- in 15· ·the next two images at the sampling effort here on Rock 16· ·Creek where we sampled 30 cutthroat trout from Rock 17· ·Creek.· And here one is being measured.· And what the 18· ·biologist did in this case, which is a typical 19· ·procedure -- there's a little fin on the -- on the 20· ·dorsal side of the trout called the "adipose fin", and 21· ·a little piece of this fin is clipped and then a DNA 22· ·analys -- analyzed to determine the purity or the -- 23· ·exactly what we're dealing with fish-wise. 24· · · · Next. 25· · · · The interesting thing with -- with Rock Creek at 26· ·my doorstep -- and this is a trout from Rock Creek at ·1· ·my doorstep -- is that Rock Creek has its headwaters ·2· ·much closer to Grassy Mountain than I am.· And we're ·3· ·backing up now into my thinking with dust and dust on ·4· ·this landscape and dust that could be transported tens ·5· ·or possibly even hundreds of kilometres east.· And what ·6· ·does that dust do on the snow when it occurs in the ·7· ·winter?· The sun hits that dust, and it causes that ·8· ·snow to melt much sooner than it otherwise would.· So ·9· ·we have in Alberta the Oldman watershed, the Oldman 10· ·River where we know we're going to have diminished 11· ·flows as has been forecast by climatologists and 12· ·hydrologists, and we are now exposing that 13· ·environment -- if, in fact, we proceed with the mine, 14· ·Grassy, in this area, we are proposing to add to the 15· ·dust load on this landscape, and what that will do if 16· ·that were to occur is that that will cause that snow to 17· ·melt much sooner than it otherwise would and alter the 18· ·stream flows in these streams, particularly in the 19· ·critical summer and fall months. 20· · · · Next. 21· · · · Immediately downstream from my home is the 22· ·Crowsnest River.· The confluence of Rock Creek at my 23· ·doorstep and the Crowsnest River is -- well, it's 24· ·close.· I can look out my window and see the Crowsnest 25· ·River Valley right below me.· And this particular image 26· ·is of the Crowsnest River immediately below Lundbreck ·1· ·Falls, which is just slightly downstream from the ·2· ·confluence of Rock Creek and the Crowsnest River. ·3· · · · The fish that you're looking at here is a bull ·4· ·trout, provincial fish, also native trout not doing ·5· ·well.· And this particular trout is being lovingly, I ·6· ·would say, handled and cared for and is about to be ·7· ·released back into the environment. ·8· · · · But the point that I'm -- that I wish to leave you ·9· ·with here is simply this:· We are dealing with a 10· ·critical habitat for bull trout here in the Crowsnest 11· ·River immediately below my home and below Lundbreck 12· ·Falls, and I don't know if that's widely known, 13· ·recognized, or considered in threats.· So we know we 14· ·have non-native trout in the Crowsnest River and that 15· ·those are important, the rainbow trout that are in 16· ·there, the brown trout that are in there; but we also 17· ·have bull trout coming up the Crowsnest River, at least 18· ·as far as Lundbreck Falls.· And, historically, of 19· ·course, they were much farther west; they were right up 20· ·at the headwaters right at Crowsnest Lake.· We have an 21· ·8,000-year-old archaeological site at the lake where 22· ·bull trout, probably before they first migrated into 23· ·Alberta, were trapped and speared by the Ktunaxa 24· ·people. 25· · · · Next. 26· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. McIntyre. ·1· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · · Yes. ·2· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·I just want to do a bit of a ·3· ·time check.· I think you're probably (INDISCERNIBLE - ·4· ·OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS) -- ·5· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · · (INDISCERNIBLE - OVERLAPPING ·6· ·SPEAKERS) ·7· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·-- at the end of your slides. ·8· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · · I am. ·9· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thanks. 10· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · · This is just to the immediate 11· ·west of my home.· We're looking out here at the 12· ·Livingstone Range as I see it pretty much almost from 13· ·my doorstep from the northern flanks of Tallon Peak 14· ·looking out in the -- the flat-topped mountain that you 15· ·see in the extreme left here is Robertson Peak. 16· ·Robertson Peak is home to vision-quest sites -- 17· ·prehistoric vision-quest sites that look out at both 18· ·of -- two power peaks, Crowsnest Mountain to the west 19· ·and Chief Mountain to the south in Montana. 20· · · · Next. 21· · · · Here is an individual at one of those vision-quest 22· ·sites on Robertson Peak.· We're looking up the 23· ·Livingstone Range here.· The, sort of, doughnut-shaped 24· ·array of rocks in the foreground is the vision-quest 25· ·site that looks -- if you're in that line in that 26· ·vision-quest site, looking roughly south or southeast , ·1· ·you're looking toward Chief Mountain in Montana, ·2· ·visible here.· And the interesting thing that I would ·3· ·also point out here is that we're in close proximity to ·4· ·what the National Geographic has identified as its ·5· ·place of the eagle's viewing site, which is also just ·6· ·to the immediate west of this; and we're also looking ·7· ·out at the second power peak that's featured in other ·8· ·vision-quest sites that are from this peak, and that's ·9· ·Crowsnest and the Seven Sisters visible on the extreme 10· ·upper left of the image. 11· · · · Between where the person is seated and Crowsnest 12· ·Mountain is Grassy Mountain. 13· · · · Next. 14· · · · I mentioned the threat that I see that I believe 15· ·exists with the potential for Turtle Mountain to do not 16· ·necessarily exactly what it did, but to do again what 17· ·it's shown it's capable of doing.· We're looking here 18· ·out across the Frank Slide at Turtle Mountain with the 19· ·Flathead Range in the distance, and I just show that 20· ·for interest. 21· · · · If you look closely, you can see the Frank Slide 22· ·Interpretive Centre as a -- sort of a little white dot 23· ·down to the immediate right-hand side of the slide 24· ·margin in the -- sort of the middle ground. 25· · · · Next. 26· · · · This is an individual, Fran Gilmar by name.· This ·1· ·is her dog "Moore" [phonetic].· And Fran is one of the ·2· ·people -- I'm just putting a face on some of the people ·3· ·from Grassy Mountain area that still own land there. ·4· ·And only Riversdale Benga knows how it has dealt with ·5· ·these people.· We've talked about them as a -- as a ·6· ·group of people.· They were mentioned as a group by the ·7· ·people from the MD of Ranchland yesterday.· I just ·8· ·thought that it would be good to put a face on this so ·9· ·that the Panel realizes that it's dealing with real 10· ·people. 11· · · · Only Riversdale and Benga know how they have dealt 12· ·with people such as Fran Gilmar.· She has almost 13· ·60 years of life and times and tales to tell about her 14· ·love affair with the land at her doorstep.· Here she 15· ·is. 16· · · · Next. 17· · · · This is the end, and here we are.· This is what we 18· ·have today.· And as we look out, we see what we have. 19· · · · And next.· If you go to the next image, we see 20· ·what we're proposing.· So that's what's in front of us. 21· · · · I believe that concludes my presentation.· I thank 22· ·you for your time. 23· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Mr. McIntyre. 24· · · · I'll just see if anybody has any questions for you 25· ·before we let you go. 26· · · · Mr. Ignasiak, any questions from Benga? ·1· · · ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · No questions, sir. ·2· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. ·3· · · · · · Any of the other participants have questions? ·4· · · · · · Hearing none, Ms. LaCasse, any questions from the ·5· · · ·AER staff? ·6· · · ·MS. LACASSE:· · · · · · ·I do have a few questions for ·7· · · ·Mr. McIntyre. ·8· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Go ahead. ·9· · · ·Alberta Energy Regulator Staff Questions David McIntyre 10· ·Q· ·MS. LACASSE:· · · · · ·Good morning, Mr. McIntyre. 11· · · ·My name's Meighan LaCasse, and I'm counsel to the 12· · · ·Panel.· I'm going to ask you just a very few questions 13· · · ·prepared by AER staff at the direction of the Panel. 14· · · · · · So in your submissions and as you've discussed 15· · · ·this morning, you've provided a summary of 2019 16· · · ·meteorological data collected by your neighbour, and 17· · · ·the data which is on page 9 summarizes monthly wind 18· · · ·speed averages along with what happens to be peak wind 19· · · ·speed data identifying winds upward of 144 kilometres 20· · · ·per hour.· Also in this information -- and it's at the 21· · · ·bottom of page 8 -- is identified geographical 22· · · ·coordinates in latitude and longitude. 23· · · · · · And I didn't say this, but this is in your 24· · · ·presentation, which is CIA [sic] Document 549. 25· · · · · · So this indicates a location, according to my 26· · · ·expert assistants, at approximately 10 kilometres east ·1· · · ·of the proposed project mine site and on the other side ·2· · · ·of a mountain range. ·3· · · · · · So my first question for you, sir, is if you can ·4· · · ·confirm that the fourth column on page 9 -- so if I ·5· · · ·could just get you to move to page 9 and scroll to the ·6· · · ·bottom of the page, please.· This fourth column ·7· · · ·represents peak wind speed; is that correct? ·8· ·A· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · The data that you're looking ·9· · · ·at there and which I presented to you has been given to 10· · · ·Environment Canada by a neighbour of mine who lives 11· · · ·approximately 3 kilometres north of me at that 12· · · ·location.· He is slightly closer to the mine site than 13· · · ·I.· He -- or his equipment is responsible for the data 14· · · ·that you have there.· All I can say is that my 15· · · ·perception of him is that he is exacting -- he probably 16· · · ·has, in my opinion, the very best of equipment, and he 17· · · ·has made that equipment -- or put that equipment to the 18· · · ·use of providing Environment Canada with defining data, 19· · · ·which I would say probably correlates very well with 20· · · ·the data that the Government of Alberta has for 21· · · ·Highway 22, which is also close by. 22· ·Q· ·I'm not attempting to challenge the veracity of the 23· · · ·information.· I just want to clarify exactly what the 24· · · ·chart represents.· So the fourth column represents the 25· · · ·peak wind speed as recorded there; is that correct? 26· ·A· ·Well, that's my understanding -- ·1· ·Q· ·Yeah. ·2· ·A· ·-- of this too, and -- and we're looking at -- what we ·3· · · ·see there -- you see the year.· That's not the 19th ·4· · · ·year.· That's 2019, in my -- ·5· ·Q· ·Yes. ·6· ·A· ·-- understanding of that.· And so we look at the ·7· · · ·months, then, we have for the -- I believe the last one ·8· · · ·shows the -- well, the -- I don't see -- we usually ·9· · · ·have 12 months listed there.· I don't know why we don't 10· · · ·at the end of '19.· Oh, I guess we do.· I'm -- I'm 11· · · ·looking at this -- now, I haven't looked at this since 12· · · ·I sent it to you.· So we're looking at the -- at the 13· · · ·12 months of the year.· So they're just numbered 1 14· · · ·through 12, and then the -- the wind speeds speak for 15· · · ·themselves; the temperatures speak for themselves. 16· ·Q· ·Okay.· So are you able to confirm if that fourth 17· · · ·column -- and thank you for going back to page 9 -- is 18· · · ·that time averaged or an instantaneous measurement? 19· ·A· ·You would have to, I -- I think, consult with the 20· · · ·manufacturer of that equipment.· I believe that 21· · · ·represents a pinpoint in time of the -- I believe, the 22· · · ·peak velocity on that day of that month. 23· ·Q· ·Okay. 24· ·A· ·And then we see the direction after that, so west, 25· · · ·south.· Typically out of the west or southwest, we see 26· · · ·the direction of the wind, and then we have -- we have ·1· · · ·those speeds that are given. ·2· ·Q· ·Can you tell me, does the wind speed data in this ·3· · · ·table -- is it representative of the winds you ·4· · · ·experienced in 2019? ·5· ·A· ·The winds are variable here, and some of us are a ·6· · · ·little more tucked out of the winds, and/or the ·7· · · ·topography treats us a bit differently.· I would say ·8· · · ·that the winds that are recorded there are very ·9· · · ·consistent with what I believe to be true and accurate 10· · · ·for that particular point on the land, which is very 11· · · ·close to where I'm seated at this point in time. 12· ·Q· ·Okay.· Thank you. 13· · · · · · So just to move over to the geographical 14· · · ·coordinates that are found on page 8.· If you could go 15· · · ·back to page 8, please.· And they're just at the, sort 16· · · ·of, second from the bottom where the elevations are 17· · · ·given. 18· ·A· ·M-hm. 19· ·Q· ·So do the geographical coordinates provided there 20· · · ·correspond to where the meteorological measurements 21· · · ·were collected, which is, I'm told, about 10 kilometres 22· · · ·east of the proposed project mine site and on the other 23· · · ·side of a mountain range from the site? 24· ·A· ·Well, it is on the side of the mountain range, true; 25· · · ·but I would say in that, if you're trying to make it 26· · · ·sound like it's a different world on the other side, I ·1· · · ·have been on Grassy Mountain, and the mountain itself, ·2· · · ·if you're on the crest of the Livingstone Range, I ·3· · · ·would say that the winds are going to be in excess of ·4· · · ·what are experienced down here in the valley on the ·5· · · ·east side; and I would say, from my experience on ·6· · · ·Grassy Mountain, that I've certainly been buffeted ·7· · · ·around and nearly blown down while I was on Grassy ·8· · · ·Mountain.· So -- but I haven't been there now in -- in ·9· · · ·years. 10· ·Q· ·So I guess that sort of goes to my next question.· Do 11· · · ·you think that the wind speeds provided reflect what 12· · · ·you could expect to impact the proposed project, given 13· · · ·the distance between where the project is and where 14· · · ·these wind speeds were recorded? 15· ·A· ·I believe that the wind speeds that are recorded here 16· · · ·are very reflective in general of exactly what would be 17· · · ·at Grassy.· I would anticipate that Grassy would be 18· · · ·more volatile than this.· And in my presentation I did 19· · · ·not mention the fact that my wife and I, during the 20· · · ·last 30 years, are likely to have hiked more in this 21· · · ·area probably than any living couple; and I pointed out 22· · · ·in something that I've written to you that we've -- 23· · · ·we've more than walked around -- we've done the 24· · · ·equivalent of walking around the earth at its equator. 25· · · ·We've probably walked 50,000 kilometres in the last 26· · · ·30 years on this precise landscape, and that's ·1· · · ·conservative.· I discover -- was kind of amazed to ·2· · · ·figure that out and look at it.· I have been on ·3· · · ·virtually every peak around here.· I have hiked ·4· · · ·extensively throughout the area.· I have hiked on ·5· · · ·Grassy Mountain.· I have spent days on Gold Creek. ·6· · · ·It's one of the most beautiful creeks I have ever seen. ·7· · · ·I've seen hundreds and hundreds of creeks. ·8· · · · · · So I think that the information that you're asking ·9· · · ·me specifically here is -- generally speaking, it's 10· · · ·very reflective, and, if anything, I would expect that 11· · · ·Grassy Mountain would provide more volatile and 12· · · ·problematic wind speeds than we experience here on the 13· · · ·Eastern Slopes of the Livingstone Range. 14· ·Q· ·Mr. McIntyre, those are my questions.· Thank you very 15· · · ·much. 16· ·A· ·You're welcome. 17· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Ms. LaCasse. 18· · · · · · Mr. Lambrecht, any questions? 19· · · ·MR. LAMBRECHT:· · · · · ·Sir, I do have a question for 20· · · ·Mr. McIntyre. 21· · · ·Joint Review Panel Secretariat Staff Questions 22· · · ·David McIntyre 23· ·Q· ·MR. LAMBRECHT:· · · · ·Mr. McIntyre, you provided a 24· · · ·letter to the Panel which has CIAR Number 159 as its 25· · · ·reference.· On page -- at PDF page 3 of that letter in 26· · · ·the fifth paragraph you expressed a concern about the ·1· · · ·potential for blasting associated with mining activity ·2· · · ·at Grassy Mountain to trigger what you described as a ·3· · · ·"rock avalanche" at Turtle Mountain. ·4· · · · · · My question for you, sir, is:· On what information ·5· · · ·or data did you base the linkage in this concern ·6· · · ·between blasting and rockfall at Turtle Mountain? ·7· ·A· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · Well, what I've pointed out in ·8· · · ·here is that I have worked for decades with geologists, ·9· · · ·geophysicists, and geotechnical engineers.· I have been 10· · · ·a member of the Turtle Mountain monitoring program as 11· · · ·well, and any concern with seismic activity is a 12· · · ·concern for the stability of that mountain, and I -- I 13· · · ·think it's sort of interesting whenever any project is 14· · · ·envisioned that the -- the authors of that project 15· · · ·should look at whatever could happen.· And I -- I think 16· · · ·immediately of a dam that was built in the 17· · · ·United States at (INDISCERNIBLE) -- 18· · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· · · I'm sorry, sir.· Can you 19· · · ·repeat the name of the river? 20· ·A· ·MR. MCINTYRE:· · · · · Teton, T-E-T-O-N.· Flows out 21· · · ·of Grand Teton National Park and flows off into Idaho. 22· · · · · · I'm not sure of the year that the dam failed, but 23· · · ·the geologists were concerned about the stability of 24· · · ·that dam when it was put in, and it's kind of a 25· · · ·last-minute thing what they decided to do was to create 26· · · ·a -- a situation that they -- they put a lap dissolve ·1· ·camera up so that in the event that the dam failed they ·2· ·would be able to record that failure.· And sadly and ·3· ·ironically, they did.· The dam, as I recall, when it ·4· ·was breached and when it sent the Tsunami down the ·5· ·valley, only killed, I believe, 11 people by -- by ·6· ·amazing happenstance; but it did kill, as I recall, ·7· ·13,000 cattle; and, if memory serves me correctly, it ·8· ·destroyed more farmland, more -- more irrigable land ·9· ·than it was ever designed to irrigate.· So that's -- 10· ·that's just one example of -- of what geologists did 11· ·when they expressed a concern for something. 12· · · · Another one, when the Oldman Dam was created and 13· ·Oldman Reservoir was filled -- and I believe the year 14· ·was 1986 -- the Government of Alberta, along with the 15· ·monitoring of Turtle Mountain, was concerned that the 16· ·dam that was created on the Oldman River could, by 17· ·virtue of the fact that it was on the land creating a 18· ·huge weight mass and also due to its lubrication of 19· ·known thrust faults within the reservoir that it was 20· ·subsequently going to fill, that there was concern that 21· ·that dam could cause an earthquake or induced 22· ·seismicity, as it would be referred to, that 23· ·potentially could bring down Turtle Mountain. 24· · · · And so the Government of Alberta at that point in 25· ·time initiated a program through which they put seismic 26· ·equipment in the dam itself and, through a series of ·1· ·telemetry stations, ran the data there and at other ·2· ·points between that dam site and Turtle Mountain; and ·3· ·that data-capture subsequently came back to the Frank ·4· ·Slide Interpretive Centre, and it was recorded. ·5· · · · And the -- the interesting thing there is that, ·6· ·unlike the Teton situation, the Oldman Dam did not ·7· ·fail, but it did produce earthquakes; but they weren't ·8· ·of sufficient magnitude to do anything that was ·9· ·eye-opening, you might say. 10· · · · The reason that I am concerned with 11· ·close-proximity blasting at Turtle Mountain is simply 12· ·the fact that any earthquake or any induced seismicity 13· ·adds to the risk, and that's -- that's all I'm saying 14· ·with that.· We have a known earthquake that occurred in 15· ·-- I believe it was Browning, Montana, in -- I believe 16· ·the year was 1992, but I'm not sure of that, but a 17· ·relatively small earthquake there was deemed 18· ·responsible for a major rock slide avalanche that came 19· ·off the north face of Chief Mountain in Montana and 20· ·flowed down into the area to the immediate north of 21· ·there in a very dramatic -- and had there been a 22· ·highway or railway beneath that or people living there, 23· ·it would have been more than a big deal.· As it was, it 24· ·was an earthquake that, as far as I know, didn't kill 25· ·anyone, the rock slide didn't kill anyone, and 26· ·everybody forgot about it a day or two later. ·1· ·Q· ·MR. LAMBRECHT:· · · · ·Thank you, sir.· Does that ·2· · · ·complete your response to my question? ·3· ·A· ·It completes my response, if you feel it's complete. ·4· ·Q· ·Mr. McIntyre, thank you very much.· I only ask the ·5· · · ·questions.· I am not in a position to provide the ·6· · · ·information. ·7· ·A· ·Thank you. ·8· ·Q· ·I appreciate, sir, your taking time to provide ·9· · · ·information to (INDISCERNIBLE - AWAY FROM MICROPHONE) 10· · · ·that completes my questioning. 11· ·A· ·You're welcome. 12· · · · · · This whole process has been a nightmare for us as 13· · · ·far as just getting involved and waiting and waiting 14· · · ·and waiting through, as the introductory message -- 15· · · ·mention of the -- the -- the song The Sound of Silence, 16· · · ·is that we -- we, I would say -- and I believe I'm 17· · · ·speaking for others -- would feel that we've waited 18· · · ·years.· We've sent information in, but the proponent -- 19· · · ·it would seem that the wheels have been greased for 20· · · ·everything to give the proponent numerous opportunities 21· · · ·to keep coming back, whereas we are left waiting and 22· · · ·waiting and waiting, and we have, I guess, today. 23· · · · · · And certainly we respect that the Panel is looking 24· · · ·at this information, and we ask that it be taken 25· · · ·seriously.· So that's -- that's where we are today, and 26· · · ·I thank you for that opportunity. ·1· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Mr. McIntyre. ·2· · · · · · Mr. O'Gorman, any questions? ·3· · · ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · · Thank you, Mr. Chair.· Yes, I ·4· · · ·do. ·5· · · ·Alberta Energy Regulator Panel Questions David McIntyre ·6· ·Q· ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · And thank you, Mr. McIntyre, ·7· · · ·for that presentation and all the excellent ·8· · · ·photographs. ·9· · · · · · I have two quick questions for you.· One of them 10· · · ·is that in your hearing submission, which we just saw 11· · · ·on the screen a couple of minutes ago, immediately 12· · · ·above the meteorological data, you made reference to 13· · · ·the TC Energy site near your home that -- which, as you 14· · · ·say, they have experienced some challenges with trying 15· · · ·to reclaim.· You showed an image of that site in your 16· · · ·slide -- in your -- in your pictures.· We don't need to 17· · · ·bring that up. 18· · · · · · You know, I'll contrast that to what we saw 19· · · ·yesterday from the Coal Association of Canada -- I 20· · · ·think it was in their presentation -- when they 21· · · ·presented a number of photographs of reclaimed 22· · · ·coal-mining sites, and I believe those were mostly 23· · · ·sites to the north of -- in the mountains, but they may 24· · · ·not all have been. 25· · · · · · I wonder if you can speak to sort of the 26· · · ·difference between what you -- what you're presenting ·1· · · ·and that TC Energy site and some of the pictures that ·2· · · ·we saw yesterday, and how would you -- how would you ·3· · · ·explain the difference of why we would see, you know, ·4· · · ·challenging reclamation versus successful -- you know, ·5· · · ·arguably or at least as presented, successful ·6· · · ·reclamation? ·7· ·A· ·There's probably a long answer, but the short answer is ·8· · · ·regular hurricane-force winds. ·9· ·Q· ·Okay.· All right.· Thank you. 10· · · · · · And my final question is:· You made reference 11· · · ·during your presentation to some of the challenges that 12· · · ·whitebark pine are facing.· That information is on the 13· · · ·record, and numerous submissions have talked about 14· · · ·issues with blister rust, I believe it was, and I think 15· · · ·you referred to it.· You also talked about the mountain 16· · · ·pine beetle and obviously, you know, whitebark pine is 17· · · ·an issue in -- in -- for this project. 18· · · · · · I'm just curious from -- as being someone who's 19· · · ·out on the land and taking photographs and hiking, do 20· · · ·you see that yourself?· Have you seen, you know, the 21· · · ·real -- in real -- in real life, as it were, as opposed 22· · · ·to in an academic study, the challenges that whitebark 23· · · ·pine are facing and the stresses that they're under 24· · · ·from blister rust and the mountain pine beetle? 25· ·A· ·Yes.· Short answer. 26· · · · · · Going back probably to about the early '90s and ·1· ·aware of the white pine blister rust problems ·2· ·throughout much of North America, I think it was ·3· ·probably really brought to my attention in the -- in ·4· ·the Yellowstone area, and knowing that these species ·5· ·were here, and at that point in time, the Alberta ·6· ·government was sanctioning -- I don't think they were ·7· ·actually doing this themselves, but they were bringing ·8· ·in teams of, I guess, contract people to bulldoze and ·9· ·burn whitebark pine right here in the Oldman watershed 10· ·just in the -- within the area that I've shown you. 11· ·Images of -- near Window Mountain, for example, which 12· ·is in the High Rock Range just to the north of the 13· ·Crowsnest Pass. 14· · · · And just seeing those old trees stacked up and -- 15· ·and burned there was -- was troublesome.· And I 16· ·started -- as a poor scientist, I started going around 17· ·then and increment boring living trees and looking at 18· ·whitebark pines on the landscape, and the thing that 19· ·initially I saw that I thought, Well, this is great 20· ·that the whitepine blister rust which is decimating -- 21· ·and more than decimating -- wiping out whitebark pine 22· ·over much of the range isn't here.· It doesn't seem to 23· ·be a problem. 24· · · · The biggest whitebark pine that I found during 25· ·that time period as far as just size, not the oldest, 26· ·I -- I -- we got into one forest where every tree I ·1· ·cored was over 500 years old, and it was just sort of ·2· ·amazing to me to realize that these relatively small ·3· ·trees all around me were 500-plus.· But in the ·4· ·headwaters of Racehorse Creek, there was one tree that ·5· ·was only 400 years old, but it was huge.· It was well ·6· ·over a metre in diameter, and it was really impressive, ·7· ·and it was one of those trees that I thought, We should ·8· ·take a picture of this.· Somehow this tree's existence ·9· ·in Alberta should be acknowledged, and -- and -- and it 10· ·should be as an -- as an example of this particular 11· ·species.· And it was only a year or two or three later 12· ·that the white pine blister rust came in and killed 13· ·that tree, which, for me, was devastating.· I have 14· ·pictures of it in life, and I have pictures of it in 15· ·death. 16· · · · And in the headwaters of Vicary Creek, where I 17· ·collected cones to get seed from whitepine blister rust 18· ·to have them go through a process through which those 19· ·seeds could be used elsewhere, that forest, too, when I 20· ·first saw it -- and I'm not sure of the year here, but 21· ·the thing that was interesting was to suddenly see 22· ·the -- the -- the blister rust appearing, and that 23· ·thing would -- just as we have the -- the trout in -- 24· ·in the Fording River and in the Elk River referred to 25· ·by some biologists as "dead fish swimming", we have 26· ·what -- the whitebark pine is the same sort of thing. ·1· · · ·The trees are still living with them, and they die from ·2· · · ·the top down. ·3· · · · · · So we see these trees as they begin to get this ·4· · · ·disease -- as I have and as you've asked here, we see ·5· · · ·these trees on this landscape seem to be fine one day, ·6· · · ·suddenly getting white pine blister rust, and then ·7· · · ·within a year or two or three or five, whatever it ·8· · · ·might be, we start to use the genetic capacity of those ·9· · · ·trees to reproduce themselves.· So entire populations 10· · · ·die from, as we say, the top down or might -- might say 11· · · ·and the -- they no longer produce cones.· While the 12· · · ·tree is actually living and might live for another 13· · · ·10 or 20 years, but it's biologically dead. 14· ·Q· ·Okay.· Thank you, Mr. McIntyre.· Appreciate your time 15· · · ·today. 16· ·A· ·You're welcome. 17· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. 18· · · · · · Mr. Matthews, any questions? 19· ·Q· ·MR. MATTHEWS:· · · · · Thank you, Mr. McIntyre, for 20· · · ·your presentation.· Great photography. 21· · · · · · I just wanted to ask you more questions about the 22· · · ·whitebark pine.· Are you aware of any successful 23· · · ·whitebark pine silviculture projects where they have 24· · · ·been successful in replanting or -- the forests or 25· · · ·individual trees? 26· ·A· ·Certainly there are efforts that are being made that ·1· ·may, for the future, provide whitebark pine forests. ·2· ·The problem with the North American whitebark pines, ·3· ·limbers pines, and other -- other so-called ·4· ·five-needled pines is that they do not have the ·5· ·resistance to the European pathogen, the white pine ·6· ·blister rust.· And so when that disease came to North ·7· ·America, it just went rampant, and it could go wherever ·8· ·it could go with the winds. ·9· · · · And so it -- it's a very complex pathogen.· It has 10· ·alternate hosts, and so it's living in my yard on -- on 11· ·junipers and on Saskatoon bushes a part of the year, 12· ·and then it blows off east, and you don't see where 13· ·it's going and how it's getting there. 14· · · · Genetically we have a very small percentage, it 15· ·seems, and -- and I'm not the ultimate source of 16· ·knowledge on this.· I know a fair bit about it, but 17· ·there are biologists who have dedicated their lives, 18· ·primarily biologists in the States, to pursuing options 19· ·that would enable whitebark pine to come back on the 20· ·land. 21· · · · One of the opportunities that exists today in 22· ·Waterton Lakes National Park is the opportunity to take 23· ·either genetically proven disease-resistant seeds and 24· ·plant them through the area hit by the Keyno fire in -- 25· ·in September of 2017 and to take those deluded 26· ·landscapes and to plant whitebark pine seeds there with ·1· · · ·the hope that those seeds genetically resistant to the ·2· · · ·disease will produce and -- and do well there.· There ·3· · · ·is also some seed modification that's -- that's being ·4· · · ·undertaken so that seeds can be genetically modified to ·5· · · ·perhaps show resistance. ·6· · · · · · But when we're dealing with a forest that's on the ·7· · · ·land today, as is the case with -- with Grassy Mountain ·8· · · ·where we have living whitebark pines living very close ·9· · · ·to the absolute edge of their historic reign, if 10· · · ·they're alive today, why would we kill something that's 11· · · ·500 years old today to try to create something that we 12· · · ·might be able to replicate 500 years down the line? 13· ·Q· ·Okay.· Thank you, Mr. McIntyre. 14· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. 15· ·Q· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · ·Mr. McIntyre, I don't have any 16· · · ·questions for you.· I just have one administrative 17· · · ·matter I'd like to -- to deal with.· It appears to me 18· · · ·that your written submission contains some evidence 19· · · ·that you didn't specifically speak to in your oral 20· · · ·testimony today, such as the wind speed data that 21· · · ·Ms. LaCasse referred to.· So I would just like for you 22· · · ·to confirm on the record that your written submission, 23· · · ·which I believe is CIAR Number 549, was prepared by 24· · · ·you, you adopt it as your evidence, and it's accurate 25· · · ·to the best of your knowledge? 26· ·A· ·I don't have all those numbers in front of me.· One of ·1· ·the more interesting things as far as trying to find ·2· ·statements of concern that I presented for this ·3· ·project, is that it was years ago that I brought it to ·4· ·the attention of -- I believe it was both the federal ·5· ·and -- and -- and to the Alberta Energy Regulator, the ·6· ·concern that I couldn't find one of my statements of ·7· ·concern, and maybe it was more than one, and -- and ·8· ·what I asked for at that time, and was told it was ·9· ·being worked on, was that I was asked -- I asked to 10· ·have a single registry for all of the statements of 11· ·concern because it seemed that the AER, Alberta Energy 12· ·Regulator, had some, and the federal government had 13· ·others.· And I spent hours trying to find, in 14· ·particular, a 2017 statement of concern that in the 15· ·week that that was given, it was supposed to be sent to 16· ·a particular Benga/Riversdale representative, Calvin 17· ·Clarke, I believe, by name, and so we had him as an 18· ·individual to whom we were going to send that, and the 19· ·very week that it was due, he disappeared from -- at 20· ·least the apparent appointment of Riversdale/Benga, 21· ·although he may still be in some capacity working for 22· ·them, but that created in itself a big problem.· But I 23· ·never did see, and I just tried in looking again here 24· ·within the last month or so to find a -- a common 25· ·registry for all of the statements of concern.· And I 26· ·was not able to find that, which is why I sent you ·1· · · ·again -- I say "you" -- I sent the Panel the 2017 -- ·2· · · ·December 8th, I believe, 2017, statement of concern ·3· · · ·that had some comments that I've related to -- that I ·4· · · ·addressed today. ·5· ·Q· ·Yes.· Sorry, Mr. McIntyre.· I may not have been clear ·6· · · ·on what I was asking. ·7· · · · · · You filed with the Panel most recently a written ·8· · · ·submission in September -- on or around the -- ·9· · · ·September 21st? 10· ·A· ·Yes. 11· ·Q· ·And that was the submission I was referring to, which I 12· · · ·believe is CIAR Number 549.· And what I was asking you 13· · · ·was just to confirm on the record that you prepared 14· · · ·that submission.· Everything in it is, you know, true, 15· · · ·as far as you know? 16· ·A· ·I -- I don't have that particular reference number in 17· · · ·front of me, but I -- I did send you a submission in 18· · · ·September.· I believe that's -- and I -- I feel certain 19· · · ·that what you are saying is accurate, and I can say, 20· · · ·yes, I did prepare that. 21· ·Q· ·Okay.· Thank you, sir.· That's what I was looking for. 22· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you very much, 23· · · ·Mr. McIntyre, for your time today and your presentation 24· · · ·and participation in this proceeding. 25· · · · · · It's just about 12:00.· Unless I hear strenuous 26· · · ·objections, I'm going to say 45 minutes for lunch, back ·1· ·at 12:45. ·2· · · · I will allow a brief moment for strenuous ·3· ·objections.· Hearing none, we'll see everybody back at ·4· ·12:45, and we'll be hearing first from Mr. Bradley and ·5· ·then Ken Allred, followed by Mike Judd. ·6· ·______·7· ·PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL 12:45 PM ·8· ·______·9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ·1· ·Proceedings Taken via Remote Video ·2· ·______·3· ·October 29, 2020· · · · ·Afternoon Session ·4 ·5· ·A. Bolton· · · · · · · · The Chair ·6· ·D. O'Gorman· · · · · · · Hearing Commissioner ·7· ·H. Matthews· · · · · · · Hearing Commissioner ·8 ·9· ·M. LaCasse· · · · · · · ·AER Counsel 10· ·B. Kapel Holden· · · · · AER Counsel 11 12· ·K. Lambrecht, QC· · · · ·Joint Review Panel Secretariat 13· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Counsel 14 15· ·T. Utting· · · · · · · · AER Staff 16· ·E. Arruda· · · · · · · · AER Staff 17· ·D. Campbell· · · · · · · AER Staff 18· ·T. Turner· · · · · · · · AER Staff 19· ·T. Wheaton· · · · · · · ·AER Staff 20· ·A. Shukalkina· · · · · · AER Staff 21 22· ·M. Ignasiak· · · · · · · For Benga Mining Limited 23· ·C. Brinker 24 25· ·R. Warden· · · · · · · · For Ktunaxa Nation 26 ·1· ·K. Poitras· · · · · · · ·For Métis Nation of Alberta ·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Region 3 ·3 ·4· ·Chief B. Cote· · · · · · For Shuswap Indian Band ·5 ·6· ·B. Snow· · · · · · · · · For Stoney Nakoda Nations ·7 ·8· ·R. Drummond· · · · · · · For Government of Canada ·9· ·S. McHugh 10 11· ·A. Gulamhusein· · · · · ·For Municipality of Crowsnest 12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Pass 13 14· ·M. Niven, QC· · · · · · ·For MD of Ranchland No. 66 15· ·R. Barata 16· ·J. Nijjer 17 18· ·B. McGillivray· · · · · ·For Town of Pincher Creek 19 20· ·D. Yewchuk· · · · · · · ·For Canadian Parks and 21· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Wilderness Society, Southern 22· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Alberta Chapter 23 24· ·R. Secord· · · · · · · · For Coalition of Alberta 25· ·I. Okoye· · · · · · · · ·Wilderness Association, Grassy 26· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Mountain Group, Berdina Farms ·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Ltd., Donkersgoed Feeder ·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Limited, Sun Cured Alfalfa ·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Cubes Inc., and Vern Emard ·4 ·5· ·R. Cooke· · · · · · · · ·For Crowsnest Conservation ·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Society ·7 ·8· ·G. Fitch, QC· · · · · · ·For Livingstone Landowners ·9· ·C. Agudelo· · · · · · · ·Group 10 11· ·M. Sawyer· · · · · · · · For Timberwolf Wilderness 12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Society and Mike Judd 13 14· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Barbara Janusz 15 16· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Jim Rennie 17 18· ·S. Elmeligi· · · · · · · For Alberta Chapter of the 19· ·A. Morehouse· · · · · · ·Wildlife Society and the 20· ·S. Milligan· · · · · · · Canadian Section of the 21· ·M. Boyce· · · · · · · · ·Wilderness Society 22 23· ·J. Gourlay-Vallance· · · For Eco-Elders for Climate 24· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Action 25 26· ·L. Peterson· · · · · · · For Trout Unlimited Canada ·1· ·R. Campbell· · · · · · · For Coal Association of Canada ·2 ·3· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Alistair Des Moulins ·4 ·5· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For David McIntyre ·6 ·7· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Fred Bradley ·8 ·9· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Gail Des Moulins 10 11· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Ken Allred 12· ·(Not Present) 13 14· ·(No Counsel)· · · · · · ·For Monica Field 15 16· ·S. Frank· · · · · · · · ·For Oldman Watershed Council 17· ·A. Hurly 18 19· ·A. Porco, CSR(A)· · · · ·Official Court Reporter 20· ·______21· ·(PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 12:45 PM) 22· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Welcome back, 23· ·everybody.· Next we're going to hear from Fred Bradley. 24· · · · And, Mr. Bradley, we'd just like you to be 25· ·affirmed or sworn before you start. 26· ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · · ·Sworn, please. ·1· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay. ·2· ·FRED BRADLEY, Sworn ·3· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Go ahead, Mr. Bradley. ·4· ·Presentation by Fred Bradley ·5· ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · · ·Yeah.· I have a PowerPoint ·6· ·presentation that I'd ask -- ·7· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay. ·8· ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · · ·-- the slides to be put up. ·9· ·So I'll start speaking while they're putting that up. 10· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay. 11· ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · · ·Good afternoon, 12· ·Mr. Chairman, Panel Members, municipal and Indigenous 13· ·participants, committee organization, NGO participants, 14· ·fellow participants, and members of the general public. 15· ·I welcome the opportunity to participate in this 16· ·hearing and provide my unique perspective on the 17· ·proposed project.· I acknowledge that I'm making this 18· ·presentation from the traditional territory of the 19· ·Treaty 7 Indigenous people and Métis Nation of Alberta 20· ·Region Number 3. 21· · · · I was born and raised in the Crowsnest Pass and 22· ·have maintained a residence here all of my life. I 23· ·guess I am what the late Nancy Kinnear in one of her 24· ·ballads referred to as a "Pass rat", which is an 25· ·affectionate term that some lifelong residents here in 26· ·the Crowsnest Pass refer to each other as.· The acronym ·1· ·is "TPR", "typical Pass rat".· And I think this is just ·2· ·my musing that we are a culturally distinct endangered ·3· ·species because the generation was born and raised here ·4· ·when it was a coal-mining community.· There's -- ·5· ·there's not many of us who remember those days. ·6· · · · And having been raised in a coal-mining ·7· ·community and then I went off to university -- and I ·8· ·hope I'm not being politically incorrect, but I'm ·9· ·talking about a typical Pass rat, or TPR -- I went to 10· ·university.· I said, This is -- there's something 11· ·different here.· And I hope no one's offended because I 12· ·may be something that's politically incorrect.· But I 13· ·thought, There's three kinds of people I'm meeting here 14· ·at university: the urban people referred to as the 15· ·"city slickers"; the rural folks, agricultural 16· ·ranchers, the "hayseeds"; and then there were those of 17· ·us who were raised in this coal-mining community, 18· ·Crowsnest Pass, and we were the "mountain men".· So 19· ·that's the context of a -- of -- from which I come and 20· ·the perspective and (AUDIO FEED LOST) what a culturally 21· ·distinct endangered species because the Crowsnest Pass 22· ·is a community of only 5,000 -- you know, 6,000 people 23· ·now, 5 or 6,000 people.· And we're -- those of us who 24· ·have been raised in a mountain community environment 25· ·all our lives, there's not that many of us here today. 26· · · · I'll continue.· I'm a fourth-generation resident ·1· ·of the Crowsnest Pass.· My family operated a retail ·2· ·business in the Crowsnest Pass for 81 years.· Began ·3· ·operations in Lille in 1908.· And the Lille mine ceased ·4· ·operation in 1912.· The business was moved to ·5· ·Blairmore, and we continued in business there until ·6· ·1989.· I have lived adjacent to an operating coal mine ·7· ·for the first ten years of my life; the former ·8· ·Greenhill Mine in Blairmore less than 1 kilometre from ·9· ·my family's residence. 10· · · · I've worked for a Coleman mining company in the 11· ·Crowsnest Pass as a summer student and seen firsthand 12· ·how a legacy coal-mine company operates.· I have served 13· ·the community as its member of the legislature for over 14· ·18 years, and I'm very much aware of the impact of an 15· ·operating coal-processing plant within a community and 16· ·its effect on the environment, surrounding community, 17· ·and the people who live next to it. 18· · · · I have gained insight into the regulatory process 19· ·during my tenure as minister of the environment for the 20· ·province and into the significance of science and 21· ·research as chair of the Alberta Research Council. I 22· ·have been a longtime advocate of an -- of a -- for -- 23· ·for -- for the environment.· I supported the funding 24· ·from the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund project -- 25· ·demonstration project, the Southwest Alberta Renewable 26· ·Energy Initiative in the Pincher Creek area.· And one ·1· ·of the results of that was the company -- the first ·2· ·wind-powered project in Alberta at Cowley Ridge.· And ·3· ·it still -- it's since been replaced by much ·4· ·higher-level producing wind turbines. ·5· · · · I had a -- I proposed and was -- had passed in the ·6· ·Alberta legislature a -- a resolution to support ·7· ·research into clean coal technologies, and I also had a ·8· ·motion looking to the future in terms of supporting ·9· ·laser fusion research, which -- although the motion was 10· ·passed, the investment was not made, but fusion 11· ·research certainly is one of the areas -- there's a lot 12· ·of money being spent in the world today to advance 13· ·fusion research. 14· · · · And for most of the last 25 years, I have sat on 15· ·the successive boards of my community's economic 16· ·development institutions, its economic development 17· ·board, the Crowsnest Pass Business Development 18· ·Corporation, and am currently on the Community Futures 19· ·Crowsnest Pass board; and I know the challenges of 20· ·attracting business, industry, and investment to our 21· ·community and supporting economic development and small 22· ·business in our community and the important role that 23· ·industry, tourism, and recreation play in our local 24· ·economy. 25· · · · Slide 2, please. 26· · · · Next slide, please. ·1· · · · I support responsible coal development in this ·2· ·province, and I support the Grassy Mountain Coal ·3· ·Project for the economic opportunities it brings to the ·4· ·region, provided the appropriate environmental ·5· ·conditions, regulations, and mitigation strategies as ·6· ·outlined in the application and other conditions ·7· ·applied by the regulators are met in its construction, ·8· ·operation, and reclamation. ·9· · · · Next slide, please.· And I think we can skip over 10· ·this 'cause I've covered that.· Next slide, please. 11· · · · The Grassy Mountain Coal Project proposed by 12· ·Riversdale Benga is not a new project. 13· ·Scurry-Rainbow/Consolidated Coal, successor owners of 14· ·West Canadian Collieries, had proposed re-mining Grassy 15· ·Mountain in the early 1970s.· Their proposal was 16· ·stalled by a moratorium placed on new coal development 17· ·in the Eastern Slopes of Alberta until the result of 18· ·East Slopes hearing by Environment Conservation 19· ·Authority had been concluded and by the announcement of 20· ·the Alberta government of its East Slopes Policy, 21· ·eventually the coal policy for Alberta, was announced. 22· · · · Scurry-Rainbow/Consolidated Coal submitted their 23· ·preliminary disclosure for the project in November of 24· ·1976 and approval and in principle was given by then 25· ·Energy Minister Don Getty in early 1977. 26· · · · It should be noted the Grassy Mountain Project ·1· ·lands would categorize under that coal policy as ·2· ·Category 4, which allowed for surface and underground ·3· ·mining. ·4· · · · Next slide, please. ·5· · · · This slide shows from the coal policy the area ·6· ·that's designated in the southwest part of the province ·7· ·around the Crowsnest Pass as Category 4.· This -- this ·8· ·is where this project is.· And under that Category 4 ·9· ·policy, it permitted surface or underground mining 10· ·would be considered.· So this was -- this is the -- the 11· ·one category under that 1976 coal policy which did 12· ·allow for surface and underground mining. 13· · · · Next slide, please. 14· · · · And I also would ask for the -- for the document I 15· ·provided in my evidence to be put forward, but this is 16· ·the document that was signed by then Minister Don Getty 17· ·approving in principle for Consolidated Coal to 18· ·proceed -- approval in principle for their preliminary 19· ·disclosure to proceed with an application for this -- 20· ·this -- this mine. 21· · · · I'd like to note that at the time there was broad 22· ·public support for this project to proceed; however, 23· ·market conditions and construction costs at the time 24· ·resulted in the application and project not proceeding. 25· · · · I understand that many of the participants in this 26· ·hearing have concerns about other proposed coal-mining ·1· ·exploration and development as it's now proceeding ·2· ·since the 1976 coal policy has been rescinded, and I ·3· ·sympathize with many of those concerns, as it affects ·4· ·the upper Oldman and areas that previously were not ·5· ·designated for mining.· However, this project conforms ·6· ·with the 1976 coal policy and should be dealt with on ·7· ·its merits, not on the contemplated effects and impacts ·8· ·of other mining proposals in the area. ·9· · · · Next slide, please. 10· · · · I'd now like to comment on community demographic 11· ·trends and socioeconomic impacts of the project. 12· ·First, there's been a steady decline on the population 13· ·of the -- of the Crowsnest Pass since its amalgamation 14· ·into one community in 1979.· The population then was 15· ·7,340 people, and the most recent census data in 2016 16· ·shows -- shows a population of 5,589 people.· The 17· ·population has declined 23.5 percent over that period. 18· · · · Next slide, please. 19· · · · According to the 2016 census, the Crowsnest Pass 20· ·is -- is one of the oldest communities in the province 21· ·and the country by age, not a statistic that any 22· ·community would strive to obtain.· The median age in 23· ·the Crowsnest Pass in 2016 was 50; for Alberta, it was 24· ·36; and for Canada, 41.· In 2016, 22.4 percent -- 25· ·22.45 percent of the population of Crowsnest Pass was 26· ·over the age of 65; for Alberta, it is 12.29 percent ·1· ·over 65; for Canada, 16.68 percent over 65.· I would ·2· ·suggest that an aging community is not a striving [sic] ·3· ·community.· There's a need to attract a younger ·4· ·demographic to our community if it is to survive. ·5· · · · Next slide, please. ·6· · · · In 2019, according to Alberta Municipal Affairs, ·7· ·85 percent of the assessment base for the community -- ·8· ·or my community is residential.· There's a need to ·9· ·expand the commercial and industrial tax base if the 10· ·community is to survive, particularly as the community 11· ·struggles to finance the replacement of aging water, 12· ·sanitary, and road infrastructures.· And I understand 13· ·the Municipality's capital plan has almost over a 14· ·hundred million dollars to replace this aging 15· ·infrastructure.· With the current assessment and tax 16· ·base, the community is on the verge of not being 17· ·financially sustainable. 18· · · · Next slide, please. 19· · · · The retail commercial sections of our community 20· ·are faced with many vacant commercial buildings.· In 21· ·September, I counted 19 vacant commercial buildings in 22· ·Blairmore, our community's major shopping district. 23· ·Coleman has many vacant commercial buildings, and the 24· ·main streets of Hillcrest and Bellevue have very little 25· ·commercial business activity. 26· · · · Next slide, please. ·1· · · · The Crowsnest Pass has lost at least 1,030 ·2· ·industrial jobs over the period 1979 to 2012.· This ·3· ·does not include the closure of other smaller ·4· ·manufacturing facilities and does not include the ·5· ·multiplier impact of the job losses by the closure of ·6· ·retail service sector on the local economy.· Four ·7· ·automobile dealerships have closed.· There's none -- ·8· ·there's no automobile dealership in the community ·9· ·(INDISCERNIBLE - AWAY FROM MICROPHONE).· One of our 10· ·elementary schools has closed. 11· · · · The job loss in the Crowsnest Pass is equivalent 12· ·on a per-capita basis to Calgary losing a quarter of a 13· ·million -- almost a quarter of a million jobs, 14· ·significant impact on this community, a loss of jobs, 15· ·decline in population. 16· · · · Next slide, please. 17· · · · The mainstay of local employment has been the coal 18· ·industry in southeastern British Columbia.· According 19· ·to the 2016 census, 19.2 percent of the workforce, 20· ·approximately 586 people, is employed in mining, 21· ·quarrying, and gas extraction.· There currently are no 22· ·mines, quarries, or gas-extraction processing 23· ·facilities in the Crowsnest Pass. 24· · · · One in five of the working population commutes to 25· ·jobs outside the community, in most cases outside of 26· ·the province.· During my years as a local ·1· ·representative, and later with my involvement in ·2· ·community economic development, we've employed and ·3· ·tried many strategies to expand the commercial, ·4· ·industrial, recreation, and tourism base -- base of our ·5· ·community.· Despite those efforts, populations ·6· ·declined, the commercial and industrial assessment base ·7· ·has declined, and the number of jobs in the community ·8· ·has declined.· We have had some successes and need to ·9· ·build on those. 10· · · · One thing I have come to realize is that to reach 11· ·success you best -- you must build on your natural 12· ·advantages, whether it be resources in the ground or 13· ·incredible scenery in the bountiful recreation and 14· ·tourism opportunities our landscape and historic 15· ·resources provide. 16· · · · So how do you turn the economy around?· I don't 17· ·know.· I believe it is a question of either, or a 18· ·question about this coal mine, or a recreation and 19· ·tourism-based economy.· There needs to be a balance 20· ·between resource development and environmental 21· ·protection.· Both are necessary to advance the economy 22· ·and provide for quality of life for our society. 23· · · · I believe we have the land base, and with 24· ·foresight and vision, and proper planning and 25· ·regulation, we can accommodate both this coal-mining 26· ·project, singular, and a recreation and tourism ·1· ·economy.· This project will bring needed jobs and ·2· ·tax-assessment base for our community. ·3· · · · Also, I'd like to comment on foreign investment, ·4· ·as others have raised this in the -- in the hearing. ·5· ·The development -- the development of our country and ·6· ·province have depended on foreign investment, ·7· ·particularly in the resource section.· There has never ·8· ·been enough investment capital than -- within Canada ·9· ·itself to finance our economy, our industrial 10· ·development, and which brings a standard of living 11· ·which we enjoy today. 12· · · · Next slide, please. 13· · · · I would now like to discuss the relationship 14· ·between coking coal and steel.· With regards to this 15· ·project, is it -- it is to provide metallurgical coking 16· ·coal for the manufacture of steel.· It is not for the 17· ·burning of thermal coal to produce electricity.· This 18· ·is one misconception about this project in the wider 19· ·public sphere.· And also, I could stand to be 20· ·corrected, but the metallurgical coal is made into 21· ·coke, which is pure carbon, and the pure carbon is 22· ·needed along with the iron ore, and it's heated 23· ·together to make steel.· And I believe the world demand 24· ·for steel will continue into the foreseeable future. 25· · · · There is a diminished supply of good quality 26· ·coking coal in the world; thus a need for this project. ·1· ·I understand it takes approximately 3 tonnes of coal to ·2· ·produce 4 tonnes of steel.· There's also a strong ·3· ·relationship between the need for metallurgical coal to ·4· ·make coke, to make steel, and the manufacture of wind ·5· ·turbines.· I understand that approximately 70 percent ·6· ·of the massive wind turbine is made up of steel.· So as ·7· ·we transition from a hydrocarbon-based electrical ·8· ·generation to renewable, such as wind, a need for steel ·9· ·is part of that transition to make it happen. 10· · · · Next slide, please. 11· · · · I do not have the technical expertise to comment 12· ·on the specific topic areas of the application. I 13· ·respect that there are many subject areas which require 14· ·careful consideration by the Joint Review Panel and the 15· ·technical advice to the appropriate regulatory bodies 16· ·that require adjudication as to the specific strategies 17· ·proposed by the proponent to meet regulatory 18· ·requirements and mitigation required. 19· · · · However, I do believe that this project can 20· ·proceed, provided the appropriate conditions are 21· ·applied to the -- the approvals, ensure that all 22· ·environmental and human health standards are met. 23· ·Litigation proposals and strategies by -- by the 24· ·proponent are major concerns about water quality, and 25· ·particularly (INDISCERNIBLE - AWAY FROM MICROPHONE) and 26· ·habitat mitigation for terrestrial and aquatic species ·1· ·seem reasonable, in my opinion. ·2· · · · As to fisheries impact, I'd like to provide the ·3· ·observation that when the Alberta government ·4· ·constructed the Oldman Dam -- I was involved in that ·5· ·project, Oldman Dam and reservoir -- they adopted a ·6· ·no-net loss of fisheries habitat as a result of the ·7· ·reservoir.· Mitigation habitat replacement occurred in ·8· ·the rivers upstream and the reservoir.· I would suggest ·9· ·that if this project adopted such approach, which could 10· ·not only guarantee no net loss of habitat, with proper 11· ·strategies, increase the habitat for fish species. 12· · · · I believe the applicant has suggested such a 13· ·strategy (INDISCERNIBLE - AWAY FROM MICROPHONE) that 14· ·fisheries offset plan.· I think it's in CIR Number 571, 15· ·October of 2020.· And the page 34 alludes to 16· ·opportunities to replace by pairing habitat at a 2-to-1 17· ·ratio, aquatic habitat at a 9-to-1 ratio. 18· · · · So if the required monitoring of these effects 19· ·cause concern during the operating period of the 20· ·proposed coal mine, then further regulatory measures 21· ·should be entertained to ensure that the operation 22· ·meets the environmental and human health standards 23· ·required by provincial and federal regulators. 24· · · · Next slide, please. 25· · · · Concerns about dust and noise created by the 26· ·proposed loadout facility are addressed by the ·1· ·applicant.· From my experience, the current locomotive ·2· ·and train traffic noise through Blairmore and noise ·3· ·from existing Highway 3 traffic north of Blairmore ·4· ·currently exceed the noise level that would be ·5· ·generated by the operation of the rail line and ·6· ·loadout, and I'm only referring to this as comments ·7· ·about the noise impact from the loadout. ·8· · · · Enclosed delivery conveyors, enclosed loadout and ·9· ·coating technologies for fugitive dust applied on 10· ·exiting coal cars should mitigate against major dust 11· ·emanating from the coal loadout facility operation in 12· ·the neighbouring communities.· Particulate monitoring 13· ·which is proposed should permit the gathering of the 14· ·necessary information for further measures to be 15· ·implemented, if required. 16· · · · I support the proposal to set up a local 17· ·socioeconomic environment committee to provide input 18· ·and monitor impacts of the project as it proceeds. 19· · · · Next slide, please. 20· ·THE COURT REPORTER:· · · Excuse me. 21· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Yes. 22· ·THE COURT REPORTER:· · · Is anyone else having some 23· ·feed problems? 24· · · · I find that Mr. Bradley is lagging. 25· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·I'm getting a little bit of 26· ·that as well.· I am still able to understand, but there ·1· ·is a bit of a lag. ·2· ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · · ·Should I speak slower? ·3· ·THE COURT REPORTER:· · · That's not really the problem. ·4· ·I just -- okay, let's go for a little bit more; and if ·5· ·I continue to have this problem, I may ask that he call ·6· ·back in.· It may just be a bad connection. ·7· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay. ·8· ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · · ·I am out in a rural area. I ·9· ·am connected by mobile, wireless. 10· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Well, let's continue, 11· ·Mr. Bradley, and if the court reporter continues to 12· ·experience problems, we might have to have you phone in 13· ·and maybe use a phone to provide your voice, or -- or 14· ·to reconnect and just see if we get a better 15· ·connection. 16· ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · · ·Okay. 17· · · · I now would like to comment on the legacy mining 18· ·issues and impact of this project.· 25 percent of the 19· ·area at the proposed Grassy Mountain Coal Project was 20· ·previously mined.· When the surface mine was abandoned, 21· ·there were little or no reclamation requirements.· The 22· ·current site is not pristine wilderness, and I 23· ·recognize that the proposed mining will change the 24· ·landscape, and -- and quite dramatically. 25· · · · It is my opinion that at the end of this project, 26· ·upon completion of the site reclamation, better ·1· ·outcome -- outcomes for water quality and other ·2· ·environmental impacts will result than from abandonment ·3· ·by the works by West Canadian Collieries with little or ·4· ·no reclamation when it ceased operation in 1959. ·5· · · · There is an opportunity with proper reclamation -- ·6· ·reclamation, the land and water will be in better shape ·7· ·in the future upon completion of this project than it ·8· ·is today.· I would prefer to see this existing scar on ·9· ·the landscape and its ongoing impacts properly 10· ·reclaimed.· This project has the potential to do just 11· ·that. 12· · · · I'd like to mention that there's an example of 13· ·reclaimed coal-spoiled piles adjacent to the Grassy 14· ·Mountain Road at a spot known as "Cougar Canyon".· In 15· ·the late 1980s, under the reclamation funding from the 16· ·Alberta Heritage Savings and Trust Fund, capital 17· ·projects division, it was sort of Alberta's equivalent 18· ·to the EPA Superfund in the States, approximately 19· ·600,000 tonnes of coal spoil was transported to that 20· ·site and reclaimed.· Those legacy abandoned coal spoils 21· ·adjacent to the Crowsnest River in Blairmore were 22· ·causing an environmental degradation to that river when 23· ·the blowing dust from the piles affected air quality in 24· ·the local community.· Their removal and reclamation, in 25· ·my judgment, was successful and have led to a positive 26· ·impact in the local environment.· So as you travel up ·1· ·the Grassy Mountain Road at that Cougar Valley ·2· ·corridor, that is where the 600,000 tonnes of coal ·3· ·spoil from Blairmore was deposited and reclaimed, and I ·4· ·believe that reclamation has been successful. I ·5· ·haven't been up there recently 'cause, as everyone ·6· ·realizes, the road is closed to public -- public ·7· ·transportation. ·8· · · · Next slide, please. ·9· · · · This slide contains an aerial showing the extent 10· ·and state of the Grassy Mountain today with its 11· ·unreclaimed surface mine. 12· · · · Next slide, please. 13· · · · This slide shows a closer aerial north view of 14· ·existing grounds.· It's the landscape as you look down 15· ·from the earth -- oh, I see that my -- I've got a 16· ·message my internet connection is unstable. 17· · · · So this shows the north view of the Grassy 18· ·Mountain with its mining scars. 19· · · · Next slide, please. 20· · · · This is a close-up of the south view of the -- of 21· ·the current site and shows at least four legacy pit 22· ·lakes. 23· · · · Next slide, please. 24· · · · This is a southeast view of the existing open pit, 25· ·unreclaimed, from the top of Grassy Mountain.· This 26· ·is -- this is what you see atop of Grassy Mountain. ·1· · · · Next slide, please. ·2· · · · This slide shows a southwest view of the top of ·3· ·Grassy Mountain with its existing unclaimed refuse ·4· ·piles which have an ongoing impact on our current ·5· ·environment. ·6· · · · Next slide, please. ·7· · · · In conclusion, I want to say I respect all of ·8· ·those who have raised environmental and human health ·9· ·concern impacts about this project, and many of them 10· ·are people I know, I consider friends, and others are 11· ·acquaintances, and that -- I recognize that they are 12· ·raising concerns, and they -- and their concerns are 13· ·legitimate from their perspective.· And I also 14· ·recognize the impact on asserted and historical 15· ·traditional uses of land by our -- our Indigenous 16· ·peoples. 17· · · · Next slide, please. 18· · · · I believe that most of these concerns have been 19· ·addressed by the applicant or can be mitigated by 20· ·conditions placed in the appropriate approvals required 21· ·by provincial and federal regulators. 22· · · · Next slide, please. 23· · · · Finally, it is my judgment the jobs created and 24· ·the economic activity which we generate by the Grassy 25· ·Mountain Coal Mining Project will provide needed 26· ·long-term stability to the economy of the ·1· · · ·Crowsnest Pass.· These socioeconomic impacts must ·2· · · ·receive due consideration and weighting by the Joint ·3· · · ·Review Panel in a decision, recommendations on the ·4· · · ·application. ·5· · · · · · Next slide, please. ·6· · · · · · Thank you for the opportunity to participate in ·7· · · ·this hearing. ·8· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Mr. Bradley.· I'm ·9· · · ·just going to see if anyone has any questions for you. 10· · · · · · Among the participants, any questions for 11· · · ·Mr. Bradley? 12· · · ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · Yes.· Mike Sawyer here. I 13· · · ·have one question, sir. 14· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Go ahead, Mr. Sawyer. 15· · · ·Mr. Sawyer Cross-examines Fred Bradley 16· ·Q· ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · Good afternoon, Mr. Bradley. 17· · · ·You have spoken at some length about the need for 18· · · ·economic development and the need to find the balance 19· · · ·between economic development and environmental factors. 20· · · ·And so my one question to you is that:· If it's 21· · · ·determined through this process that the endangered 22· · · ·westslope cutthroat trout populations in Gold Creek 23· · · ·cannot be maintained and still proceed with the mine, 24· · · ·would you support not approving the mine under those 25· · · ·circumstances? 26· ·A· ·The purpose of this hearing is for the Joint Review ·1· · · ·Panel to hear the evidence that's been presented and to ·2· · · ·make their recommendations to the appropriate ·3· · · ·provincial and federal governments.· So I would defer ·4· · · ·to -- to the judgments -- the judgment that has been ·5· · · ·made and the recommendations that come forward from ·6· · · ·this Panel process. ·7· ·Q· ·Okay.· A supplementary question.· So then I take it, ·8· · · ·then, that -- and I -- I -- I understand -- I respect ·9· · · ·your position on the economic aspects of this, but 10· · · ·would I be correct in stating that if it turned out 11· · · ·that the westslope cutthroat trout that are protected 12· · · ·under the Species At Risk Act could not be maintained 13· · · ·and still approve this mine, you would -- you would 14· · · ·accept the decision to not approve the mine? 15· ·A· ·One has to accept the decisions and recommendations 16· · · ·that come forward from the Hearing Panel. 17· ·Q· ·Thank you, sir. 18· · · ·MS. JANUSZ:· · · · · · · Yes, Barbara Janusz here.· I'd 19· · · ·like to ask some questions. 20· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Go ahead, Ms. Janusz. 21· · · ·Ms. Janusz Cross-examines Fred Bradley 22· ·Q· ·MS. JANUSZ:· · · · · · Good afternoon, Mr. Bradley. 23· ·A· ·Good afternoon, Barbara. 24· ·Q· ·Hello.· I put it to you that you don't know what the 25· · · ·noise level will be at the off-load facility in 26· · · ·Blairmore once it's constructed, do you? ·1· ·A· ·My experience -- my experience from previous -- you ·2· · · ·know, there was an active coal mine in Coleman loadout ·3· · · ·facility and trains running through there.· I'm well ·4· · · ·aware of the noise levels that could -- could come from ·5· · · ·a loadout facility. ·6· · · · · · And I -- I've lived in Blairmore; I maintain a ·7· · · ·residence there.· And right next to the CPR tracks in ·8· · · ·Blairmore, trains coming through there, et cetera, ·9· · · ·on -- on and -- and into -- in the evenings I know the 10· · · ·impacts of noise from that.· This loadout facility is 11· · · ·located much farther north from where my home residence 12· · · ·is in Blairmore, which I still maintain with my brother 13· · · ·and sister, and the noise levels from that, I believe, 14· · · ·will be less than that coming from those current 15· · · ·traffic volumes that bypass the community to the north, 16· · · ·and the current CPR rail line is running through the 17· · · ·community today. 18· ·Q· ·But getting back to -- but getting back to your 19· · · ·off-load facility in -- in Blairmore, just across the 20· · · ·highway from the hospital, you don't know, and really 21· · · ·nobody knows, what the noise level will be once it is 22· · · ·constructed and it's in operation.· Is that not 23· · · ·correct?· Would you not agree with that? 24· ·A· ·I think there are predictive models from current 25· · · ·operating loadout facilities in which those facts could 26· · · ·be -- be made known. ·1· ·Q· ·You believe that?· Do you -- ·2· ·A· ·I think -- I think if you monitor other existing ·3· · · ·loadout facilities, you would get a good indication of ·4· · · ·what was -- those noise levels are from those.· You ·5· · · ·could then calculate the distance from those loadouts ·6· · · ·to the existing residences in Blairmore, et cetera, and ·7· · · ·you would be well aware of what those noise levels are. ·8· ·Q· ·But you would agree that at this point, these would ·9· · · ·simply be projections? 10· ·A· ·Many things are -- 11· ·Q· ·In other words -- in other words, nobody really knows 12· · · ·how loud it's going to be at this point? 13· ·A· ·I would only comment that most activities we do in 14· · · ·life, if we were to say we don't know them until 15· · · ·they're actually constructed, we'd not be doing 16· · · ·anything in society.· I think there are predictive 17· · · ·models that can show exactly what that noise modelling 18· · · ·would look like. 19· ·Q· ·All right. 20· ·A· ·I think they are in -- I think -- I believe they are 21· · · ·in -- in -- or in Riversdale's presentations. 22· ·Q· ·But -- but -- but you yourself, Mr. Bradley, you're not 23· · · ·an engineer and -- 24· ·A· ·I've -- 25· ·Q· ·-- you don't have any background in this at all? 26· ·A· ·I've said that in my testimony.· I'm not a technical ·1· · · ·expert. ·2· ·Q· ·Right.· So you -- ·3· ·A· ·And are you -- are you a technical expert? ·4· ·Q· ·I'm not, and I am absolutely not expressing any kind of ·5· · · ·an opinion on that one way or the other. ·6· · · · · · But I put it to you that you are basing your ·7· · · ·opinion on Benga's projections?· You just stated that. ·8· ·A· ·I'm basing my opinion on having lived in -- in the ·9· · · ·community.· My experience with current noise levels and 10· · · ·my experience also with the noise levels that were 11· · · ·experienced by, you know, the residents of Coleman 12· · · ·where there was a loadout facility literally a 13· · · ·couple -- no, across the railway tracks from where 14· · · ·people lived. 15· ·Q· ·And -- and that was a long time ago? 16· ·A· ·That was -- that was under -- and that was -- you know, 17· · · ·the -- the operations of coal-mining loadout facilities 18· · · ·have changed dramatically since those days.· There have 19· · · ·been many improvements made.· This will have an 20· · · ·enclosed loadout facility.· That's my judgment. 21· ·Q· ·But -- but you're basing your opinion on -- on what 22· · · ·happened many years ago in downtown Coleman, historic 23· · · ·Coleman, the -- 24· ·A· ·Based on some -- 25· ·Q· ·-- noise level there? 26· ·A· ·My personal experience, yes. ·1· ·Q· ·Okay.· Thank you. ·2· · · · · · I have just a few other questions, Mr. Bradley. ·3· · · ·Now, you don't have any experience in reclamation ·4· · · ·either?· You don't have a -- a background in that? ·5· ·A· ·No, I don't, but I -- I should -- I shouldn't -- I -- ·6· · · ·I -- I don't have a -- that background.· During my -- ·7· · · ·my experience as minister and -- and the -- the experts ·8· · · ·in the department reported to me on a regular basis ·9· · · ·about their reclamation activities.· And, in 10· · · ·particular, I was very much involved in the reclamation 11· · · ·of the then Blairmore coal spoils which came right up 12· · · ·to the edge of the Crowsnest River and spilled into the 13· · · ·Crowsnest River.· So in that '86-to-'88 period when we 14· · · ·moved 2. -- 600 -- yeah, 600,000 tonnes of coal spoil, 15· · · ·I was very much aware and involved and consulted by the 16· · · ·department officials as they removed that coal spoil, 17· · · ·moved it up to the Cougar corridor and -- and proceeded 18· · · ·to reclaim -- reclaim both of those sites, the 19· · · ·coal-spoil sites, that former Greenhill Mine site which 20· · · ·had been reclaimed -- unfortunately, it has been 21· · · ·disturbed by the most recent unsuccessful commercial 22· · · ·development, but that was reclaimed, and I had -- that 23· · · ·would be my firsthand experience with reclamation as a 24· · · ·layperson, but as a person who department officials 25· · · ·reported to. 26· ·Q· ·And it was the Government that had to -- it was the ·1· · · ·Government that had to reclaim that site; is that not ·2· · · ·correct? ·3· ·A· ·Yes, because previous -- because when that mine was ·4· · · ·abandoned -- I was 10 years old when that mine -- ·5· · · ·Greenhill Mine was next to our community -- when it ·6· · · ·ceased operation, shut down.· There were no reclamation ·7· · · ·standards in those days.· That was a legacy -- as the ·8· · · ·EPA Superfund in the United State [sic] was created, we ·9· · · ·created under the Alberta Heritage Savings Trust Fund a 10· · · ·reclamation division, and monies from the Heritage 11· · · ·Savings Trust Fund, which came from oil and gas, 12· · · ·natural resource revenues, were then put back in to 13· · · ·reclaim some of these legacy coal projects. 14· · · · · · Today there are requirements for bonds and other 15· · · ·instruments to be placed on these mining projects to 16· · · ·ensure the money is in place there today to ensure the 17· · · ·reclamation takes place in the future. 18· ·Q· ·But you're also aware of the fact that there are many 19· · · ·sites, indeed all over the world, not just here in 20· · · ·Alberta, that have remained unreclaimed because of 21· · · ·insufficient bonds and monies?· You would agree with 22· · · ·that, would you not? 23· ·A· ·No.· I -- absolutely, and I would -- that's why I -- 24· · · ·you know, the Panel and the regulators must ensure -- 25· · · ·and I've said in my presentation that they must put in 26· · · ·conditions on this project to ensure that that ·1· · · ·reclamation takes place and that the necessary ·2· · · ·securities or bonds or other instruments are there in ·3· · · ·the event the mining company fails.· That the money is ·4· · · ·there and set aside, in fact, to properly reclaim these ·5· · · ·projects. ·6· ·Q· ·And since 1979, you've lamented the fact that the ·7· · · ·population in Crowsnest Pass has declined ·8· · · ·significantly, have you not?· We've seen that decline ·9· · · ·in -- 10· ·A· ·Yes, the population. 11· ·Q· ·Yes.· And would you not also agree that urbanization is 12· · · ·a trend, again, worldwide, not just here in Alberta 13· · · ·or -- or in -- in Canada, and that young people in 14· · · ·particular are attracted to urban centres because of 15· · · ·the opportunities?· You would agree with that, would 16· · · ·you not? 17· ·A· ·Well, you know, the Crowsnest Pass, as I've -- as I've 18· · · ·stated, has lost a lot of jobs.· There are many people 19· · · ·in the community -- our young people are raised in the 20· · · ·community; they have to leave the community to find 21· · · ·jobs.· That -- the real statistic I'm showing, that 22· · · ·decline in population, is -- directly relates in a 23· · · ·major way to the loss of a -- of jobs in the community 24· · · ·directly.· 1,000 jobs.· When Coleman Collieries shut 25· · · ·down, that was 600 jobs that were lost.· Fortunately, a 26· · · ·lot of those people were able to continue to work in ·1· · · ·the BC coal mines.· That's why the statistic I ·2· · · ·presented to you is that we are really a dormitory ·3· · · ·community and that 20 percent of our workforce commutes ·4· · · ·outside the community for those jobs.· If that ·5· · · ·employment wasn't available, the -- the -- there would ·6· · · ·even be a much more dramatic impact and decline in ·7· · · ·population in our community. ·8· ·Q· ·Now, you've raised a -- I'm glad you did, Mr. -- ·9· · · ·Mr. Bradley.· You've raised that we're basically a 10· · · ·bedroom community, or to a large degree, for the mines 11· · · ·in Sparwood and in Elkford; correct? 12· ·A· ·And those are high -- yes. 13· ·Q· ·You called it "a dormitory community"; right?· Yes? 14· ·A· ·And those -- and those are much -- very well-paying 15· · · ·jobs compared to the average of other -- other 16· · · ·employment in our community, other than the government 17· · · ·sector. 18· ·Q· ·Okay.· Now, several years ago, there was a shift in the 19· · · ·scheduling in the mines in Sparwood and Elkford.· They 20· · · ·went from a five-day week, weekend, what have you, or 21· · · ·working five days, two days off, to four days on and 22· · · ·four days off.· You're -- you're familiar with that, 23· · · ·are you not? 24· ·A· ·Yes, absolutely, and then -- 25· ·Q· ·Yes. 26· ·A· ·Yes. ·1· ·Q· ·And -- and I put it to you also, Mr. -- Mr. Bradley, ·2· · · ·that as a result of -- of that four-day on and four-day ·3· · · ·off, that a lot of people that have -- that work in the ·4· · · ·mines in Sparwood, because of that, they choose to shop ·5· · · ·outside the area; they choose to shop in Lethbridge ·6· · · ·rather than to support any retail here in ·7· · · ·Crowsnest Pass.· Would you not agree with that? ·8· ·A· ·That certainly has had an impact on it, but my family ·9· · · ·was in business during those periods up until 1989.· My 10· · · ·parents retired.· That was one of the reasons why our 11· · · ·family business ceased operation, was my parents' 12· · · ·retirement.· But there's many other reasons why the -- 13· · · ·the retail sector in our community has -- has declined. 14· · · · · · But certainly, if there were more local jobs, 15· · · ·there would be much -- I think people prefer to shop 16· · · ·local if the services were there.· The -- the -- the 17· · · ·economy just hasn't been able to support that level of 18· · · ·retail with the declining population and less people to 19· · · ·support it, and -- and the other aspect to it is -- 20· · · ·well, I won't get into the other.· I don't want to have 21· · · ·a debate -- 22· ·Q· ·And -- 23· ·A· ·Sorry, Barbara, I don't want to have a debate with you 24· · · ·on these issues. 25· ·Q· ·Well, I'm entitle -- I'm entitled to cross-examine you. 26· · · ·So this is cross-examination, Mr. Bradley. ·1· · · · · · I lost my train of thought here. ·2· · · · · · But it's -- but it's not only that -- that people ·3· · · ·choose to -- to shop elsewhere.· Wouldn't you agree ·4· · · ·that there's another phenomenon today that is affecting ·5· · · ·retail, and that is online shopping? ·6· ·A· ·That's -- ·7· ·Q· ·A lot of people -- it's -- it's impacting retail ·8· · · ·everywhere, New York City, Calgary, Crowsnest Pass as ·9· · · ·well.· You would agree with that? 10· ·A· ·I agree with that.· I would like to add the comment 11· · · ·that there are things that you -- people need 12· · · ·immediately that cannot be brought into your home 13· · · ·community by on-mail [sic] shopping.· I mean, I think 14· · · ·you -- we need to support our local businesses, or they 15· · · ·won't be there when you need that part or something to 16· · · ·be repaired in -- in your community.· It all cannot be 17· · · ·brought in online.· Yes, it is -- is it a changing 18· · · ·trend?· But they -- there's -- there is a need for 19· · · ·basic local business.· For example, in the food -- the 20· · · ·grocery service industry.· I'm still waiting to see the 21· · · ·delivery of -- delivery of my groceries by -- by Google 22· · · ·drone. 23· ·Q· ·And -- and wouldn't -- thanks for those observations, 24· · · ·Mr. Bradley. 25· · · · · · But would you not also agree that it's younger 26· · · ·people that are more inclined to do online shopping; ·1· · · ·that there is still a lot of older people, like you and ·2· · · ·I, that like to go to a retail shop because that is ·3· · · ·what we are accustomed to.· Is that not correct? ·4· ·A· ·What was your assumption?· What is your assertion? ·5· ·Q· ·That -- that -- that it's the younger people that are ·6· · · ·more inclined to do online shopping than people like ·7· · · ·you and I that are accustomed to going to -- to a shop ·8· · · ·to -- to buy their -- their everyday need -- to -- to ·9· · · ·to meet their everyday needs? 10· ·A· ·I don't have knowledge of those demographics. 11· ·Q· ·Okay.· Thank you. 12· · · · · · You mentioned also in your presentation that we 13· · · ·have an aging population here in Crowsnest Pass; right? 14· · · ·That the population here is -- is -- is older?· It's a 15· · · ·mean age of 50; is that correct? 16· ·A· ·That's what the statistics show.· Yes, that's from 17· · · ·Statistics Canada. 18· ·Q· ·Yes.· And would you not also agree with me that that is 19· · · ·pretty typical for smaller rural centres like 20· · · ·Crowsnest Pass, Pincher Creek, that younger people are 21· · · ·attracted to urban centres; yes? 22· ·A· ·I don't know if that was -- that is the -- the -- the 23· · · ·cause and the -- the cause relationship of why the 24· · · ·population demographic in the Crowsnest Pass is higher 25· · · ·than in -- almost -- in fact, it is the -- it is the 26· · · ·oldest, from -- from what -- my research in the 2016 ·1· · · ·statistics came out, it is the oldest community in the ·2· · · ·province of Alberta. ·3· ·Q· ·And -- ·4· ·A· ·I -- I can't speculate as to -- to the -- your specific ·5· · · ·migration patterns.· It probably has part to do with ·6· · · ·it.· If I was to speculate, I think it was a number ·7· · · ·that -- of the -- of the seniors in the Crowsnest Pass ·8· · · ·were -- they weren't able to move away as the jobs ·9· · · ·disappeared.· And so they are -- they are the remnant 10· · · ·of those folks who had homes here, had worked in the 11· · · ·mines, and they had no place -- they didn't have the 12· · · ·mobility to -- to leave the area. 13· ·Q· ·But -- but we -- we're seeing a lot of older retirees 14· · · ·moving into the area now, are we not? 15· ·A· ·There -- that -- that -- 16· ·Q· ·People -- people -- people are choosing -- older people 17· · · ·are choosing to retire here, are they not? 18· ·A· ·That could be part of the demographic. 19· ·Q· ·Yes.· And -- and a fellow participant earlier today 20· · · ·mentioned that there is -- there is definitely value to 21· · · ·these older people that have moved here.· They 22· · · ·volunteer on various community boards.· They, I put it 23· · · ·to you, will support retail more than younger people 24· · · ·that are accustomed to -- to buying things online. 25· · · ·Would you not agree with that, that there is value to 26· · · ·these older people that have chosen to retire to ·1· · · ·Crowsnest Pass? ·2· ·A· ·This -- this community has benefitted immensely from ·3· · · ·the talents and -- of people who have moved here and ·4· · · ·chosen to live in our community. ·5· ·Q· ·Yes. ·6· · · · · · Now, just a couple more questions.· I don't want ·7· · · ·to belabour all of this.· You mentioned that there are ·8· · · ·29 storefronts in downtown Blairmore that you counted ·9· · · ·that are empty; is that correct?· I think I recall that 10· · · ·number, 29. 11· ·A· ·19. 12· ·Q· ·Oh, 19? 13· ·A· ·19.· One nine. 14· ·Q· ·Okay.· Okay.· Pardon me.· Okay.· 19. 15· · · · · · Now, you would agree that Crowsnest Pass is quite 16· · · ·unique because it is a string of communities.· We have 17· · · ·Hillcrest, Bellevue, Frank, Blairmore, and Coleman, and 18· · · ·all of these communities have commercial districts 19· · · ·because this is how they developed way back when there 20· · · ·was underground mining here; isn't that correct? 21· ·A· ·Each of the commercial districts and the -- and the 22· · · ·residential communities developed around where the 23· · · ·mines were.· That is correct. 24· ·Q· ·And -- and there were commercial districts that also 25· · · ·developed around the mines to support those -- those 26· · · ·residences?· In other words, we have five or six, ·1· · · ·depending on how you look at it, commercial districts ·2· · · ·in Crowsnest Pass? ·3· ·A· ·Well, basically -- ·4· ·Q· ·Five or six? ·5· ·A· ·Today? ·6· ·Q· ·Well, commercial buildings.· How is that?· And -- ·7· ·A· ·Well -- ·8· ·Q· ·-- from time to time -- ·9· ·A· ·Well, there's -- 10· ·Q· ·-- there are businesses -- 11· ·A· ·There's five -- five areas which have supported 12· · · ·commercial activity in the past.· Blairmore is the 13· · · ·major centre of commercial district in the community 14· · · ·today where the majority of retail services are 15· · · ·available. 16· ·Q· ·And most communities like Pincher Creek and Fernie and 17· · · ·Sparwood and, oh, even Fort Macleod, they only have one 18· · · ·commercial district, generally speaking, maybe two; 19· · · ·maybe they've got some kind of a -- a -- you know, a -- 20· · · ·a -- a strip of -- of commercial buildings along the 21· · · ·highway, but they certainly don't have five or six like 22· · · ·Crowsnest Pass.· Would you not agree with that? 23· ·A· ·Well, it's -- it's a -- it's a -- it's -- it's a 24· · · ·historic fact of the -- of the development of the -- of 25· · · ·the community as historic coal-mine communities.· The 26· · · ·residential -- and there's also geographic barriers to ·1· · · ·development.· Blairmore Coal Mine obviously is a ·2· · · ·very -- is a wetland, so you would not be able to ·3· · · ·develop between those.· Between Blairmore and -- and ·4· · · ·the east, Hillcrest and -- and Bellevue, you do have a ·5· · · ·massive rockslide dividing the community.· So it's ·6· · · ·been -- it's very difficult to develop a continuous ·7· · · ·residential and commercial district within the ·8· · · ·community.· It's -- it's one of the beauties of our ·9· · · ·area is that we have these five different residential 10· · · ·neighbourhoods, historic, but it also creates great 11· · · ·challenges in terms of operating this community.· And I 12· · · ·also, in my -- my presentation, talked about the 13· · · ·infrastructure challenges that the Municipality of 14· · · ·Crowsnest Pass has, and that's also a feature of the 15· · · ·fact that they were trying to maintain five residential 16· · · ·neighbourhoods and stretching out that -- that sewage 17· · · ·and water and road infrastructure and that it's very 18· · · ·expensive to maintain.· And I'm not sure where the 19· · · ·resources this community's going to get to maintain 20· · · ·that infrastructure to supply those very necessary 21· · · ·services as water -- good quality water.· We have many 22· · · ·different -- we don't have one -- I think -- maybe we 23· · · ·do have the one water-treatment plant because we did 24· · · ·connect up all those with one water pipeline, but we 25· · · ·currently serve by two separate sewer-treatment plants. 26· ·Q· ·(INDISCERNIBLE - OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS) ·1· ·A· ·And this is very costly.· We -- the Municipality, under ·2· · · ·the current model, only having residential assessment ·3· · · ·to pay for these needed -- needed infrastructure ·4· · · ·improvements, I'm not sure -- I could see insolvency ·5· · · ·coming because there is not the assessment base in the ·6· · · ·community to provide for those type of services.· The ·7· · · ·services that were put in there were probably in the -- ·8· · · ·the most modern were back in the '70s.· That's 40 years ·9· · · ·ago.· They need to be replaced.· Where is the money 10· · · ·going to come -- the -- the Municipality cannot afford 11· · · ·on its own or in its current assessment base to put in 12· · · ·and maintain the infrastructure of the people who live 13· · · ·here now or who may move here in the future. 14· ·Q· ·Thank you very much, Mr. Bradley.· I don't have 15· · · ·anything further. 16· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you, Ms. Janusz. 17· · · · · · Any other parties? 18· · · ·MR. COOKE:· · · · · · · ·Yes.· Rick Cooke from the 19· · · ·Crowsnest Conservation Society. 20· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Go ahead, Mr. Cooke. 21· · · ·Mr. Cooke Cross-examines Fred Bradley 22· ·Q· ·MR. COOKE:· · · · · · ·Yeah.· I would like to ask 23· · · ·Mr. Bradley, I hope, a short question.· Just -- 24· ·A· ·Hi, Rick. 25· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Go ahead, Rick -- Mr. Cooke. 26· ·Q· ·MR. COOKE:· · · · · · ·I'm sorry.· Yes.· I would like ·1· ·to ask Fred, I hope, a short question and really to ·2· ·gain his opinion for the Panel's benefit, given his ·3· ·very extensive experience, both as -- as a resident of ·4· ·the Crowsnest Pass but also as a senior minister in -- ·5· ·you know, in a very critical time in the development of ·6· ·Alberta. ·7· · · · You know, I think -- and Fred and I have talked -- ·8· ·talked about this ad nauseam in the past -- that the -- ·9· ·you know, the Pass has been -- been evolving as a -- a 10· ·residential destination and amenity lifestyle community 11· ·since the -- since the loss of -- of industry, and, you 12· ·know, the -- the return -- I think it's been evidenced 13· ·to date -- the return of coal mining represents a 14· ·change and, in a sense, a crossroads.· There is a 15· ·debate -- a legitimate debate that will occur in this 16· ·hearing as to whether both those are compatible. 17· · · · My question, though, is:· Given Fred's knowledge 18· ·and experience with the evolution of large industrial 19· ·projects in Alberta as something that -- that parallels 20· ·my own experience through the same period, large 21· ·projects, you know, get proposed, they get approved, 22· ·but sometimes they don't happen for all sorts of 23· ·reasons.· But there's a -- an ongoing permit that -- 24· ·that they have that, in effect, a community, such as 25· ·the Crowsnest Pass, at a crossroads is really left in 26· ·limbo. ·1· · · · · · So my question for Fred in -- in terms of his ·2· · · ·experience is:· Is the concept of putting a life on a ·3· · · ·permit and an approval for a project like this that has ·4· · · ·significant socioeconomic impact on the direction of a ·5· · · ·community -- is that a legitimate concept to consider? ·6· · · ·And that's not to say the permit disappears, but the ·7· · · ·permit might be reviewed if that uncertainty goes on ·8· · · ·for some years. ·9· ·A· ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · ·Well, I understand -- I'm 10· · · ·trying to understand what you mean by "life on a 11· · · ·permit". 12· ·Q· ·Well, permits go on for some time.· They get sold or 13· · · ·they get -- get transferred.· But the project is always 14· · · ·waiting to start, and that can go on for many years. 15· · · ·If a community is looking at different paths for 16· · · ·economic development, one that may impact the other, 17· · · ·which may be the -- the case in this case, is it a 18· · · ·legitimate argument to -- to look at the review of that 19· · · ·permit if that period of uncertainty, which may be many 20· · · ·years, goes on for a certain number of period -- I say 21· · · ·"review"; I don't say -- 22· ·A· ·So you're saying -- so I think what you're saying that 23· · · ·if an application is approved and -- and then the 24· · · ·project doesn't proceed, that there should be a time 25· · · ·frame where you say, Okay.· Something hasn't happened 26· · · ·in five years.· This permit -- you know, we're going to ·1· · · ·revisit and -- and come back.· The project approval ·2· · · ·doesn't extend indefinitely into a long-term future. ·3· · · ·Is that correct?· Is that what you're -- ·4· ·Q· ·That's -- that's, essentially, my question.· You -- ·5· ·A· ·I -- ·6· ·Q· ·You put things much better than I do, Fred. ·7· ·A· ·I -- I would support -- I would support that -- you ·8· · · ·know, that if -- if a project approval should have some ·9· · · ·life.· And if it doesn't -- circumstances change and -- 10· ·Q· ·(INDISCERNIBLE - OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS) 11· ·A· ·-- a lot changes, and so perhaps it -- if this project 12· · · ·was approved and nothing happened for 20 years, that -- 13· · · ·you're saying there's a great deal of uncertainty, and 14· · · ·that it -- there should be a review of -- review or 15· · · ·process, it -- it comes back so the permit isn't -- 16· · · ·won't go on indefinitely.· I would agree with you 17· · · ·there, Rick. 18· ·Q· ·Okay.· Well, I -- I might argue about the 20 years, 19· · · ·but -- 20· ·A· ·No, I -- 21· ·Q· ·-- that's another discussion. 22· ·A· ·Well, I -- I'm -- potentially that, you know ... 23· ·Q· ·Okay. 24· ·A· ·That ... 25· ·Q· ·Thank you very much. 26· ·A· ·Once it's -- once it's granted, it could go on a ·1· · · ·hundred years, I suppose, depending on -- ·2· ·Q· ·Well, these things do go on for a long time, and, you ·3· · · ·know, I think both you and I have seen projects that -- ·4· · · ·that muddle along.· You know, after you have a permit, ·5· · · ·in my experience, the real job of trying to get it ·6· · · ·financed and engineered occurs and -- ·7· ·A· ·Well, I think ...· Sorry, Rick.· Just to -- ·8· ·Q· ·And -- and -- and -- and that can be a time-consuming ·9· · · ·process.· I think introduced in this case, you may have 10· · · ·technology change, market change, all kinds of things. 11· · · ·So there are uncertainties. 12· ·A· ·I -- well, I think in the context of -- of what you've 13· · · ·just said, there is another -- and I don't want to get 14· · · ·into discussions about other coal-mining projects, but 15· · · ·I guess I -- I will, is that the current Tent Mountain 16· · · ·Mine, which is owned by Montem Resources, which 17· · · ·previously has been owned by -- 18· ·Q· ·(INDISCERNIBLE - AWAY FROM MICROPHONE) Resources, I 19· · · ·think. 20· ·A· ·Coleman Collieries and was sold -- 21· ·Q· ·Coleman Collieries? 22· ·A· ·-- and transferred, yeah.· There's still an active mine 23· · · ·permit there.· That project has an active mine. 24· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you.· Mr. Cooke -- 25· ·Q· ·MR. COOKE:· · · · · · ·That was a -- I'm -- I'm 26· · · ·looking more at the context that nothing happens in ·1· · · ·terms of the economic benefit, for example, the ·2· · · ·community gets because, outside of the control of the ·3· · · ·community, a lot of things are happening that are ·4· · · ·delaying it. ·5· ·A· ·Yeah.· I could only say that in terms of this project, ·6· · · ·although there's not been a project approval, ·7· · · ·Riversdale has invested close to $20 million in ·8· · · ·redeveloping the Crowsnest Pass golf course, and since ·9· · · ·its re-opening, I think it has been seen across -- 10· · · ·across the province and interprovincially as one of the 11· · · ·top mountain golf courses in -- in our province and 12· · · ·perhaps Western Canada, and that alone has been -- had 13· · · ·a tremendous economic impact on our community.· So 14· · · ·there is a -- there's an example of -- and it's 15· · · ·recreation-based tourism.· That -- that golf course has 16· · · ·seen a lot of activity, and it's only seeing that -- 17· · · ·although we've had a beautiful golf course there in the 18· · · ·past, this surpasses what we had before, and it's 19· · · ·because of the investment by -- by Riversdale in that 20· · · ·golf course well in advance of the project. 21· · · · · · I think it -- it shows that there -- their 22· · · ·commitment to the community by that incredible 23· · · ·enhancement, and that alone is going to generate a lot 24· · · ·of tourism-based recreation economy in -- in our 25· · · ·community, whether it be -- I can see that there will 26· · · ·be more accommodation built in the community just to ·1· ·accommodate the people who want to come down and golf ·2· ·at that golf course.· That is a tourism-based ·3· ·recreation as a -- as a result of the investment by ·4· ·Riversdale to date, and they do not have a -- they ·5· ·don't have a mine permit yet. ·6· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay. ·7· ·(INDISCERNIBLE - OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS) ·8· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Gentlemen -- Mr. Cooke, again, ·9· ·not really the place to continue the dialogue here. 10· ·MR. COOKE:· · · · · · · ·No, no.· This is another 11· ·conversation, and -- and I thank you very much for -- 12· ·for -- Fred, for answering the question and -- and -- 13· ·and being permitted to speak.· Thank you. 14· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you, Mr. Cooke. 15· · · · Any other participants? 16· · · · Okay.· Hearing none, Ms. LaCasse, any questions 17· ·from AER staff or Ms. Barbara Kapel Holden? 18· ·MS. LACASSE:· · · · · · ·Sorry, Mr. Chair.· No, we 19· ·don't have any questions.· Thank you. 20· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. 21· · · · Mr. Lambrecht? 22· ·MR. LAMBRECHT:· · · · · ·Thank you, sir.· I have no 23· ·questions for Mr. Bradley, and I thank Mr. Bradley for 24· ·his presentation. 25· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. 26· · · · Mr. O'Gorman. ·1· · · ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · · Thank you, Mr. Chair. ·2· · · ·Alberta Energy Regulator Panel Questions Fred Bradley ·3· ·Q· ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · And I do have two hopefully ·4· · · ·quick questions for you, Mr. Bradley.· Thank you for ·5· · · ·appearing before us and your presentation today.· It ·6· · · ·was much appreciated. ·7· · · · · · So the first question is:· We've had quite a bit ·8· · · ·of commentary appear on our registry and it's been ·9· · · ·raised in the first couple of days in this hearing 10· · · ·about the 1976 coal policy, and one can argue about the 11· · · ·extent to which that has anything to do with this 12· · · ·particular project, so -- but I -- I am curious, since 13· · · ·you raised it as well and that you pointed out that 14· · · ·Grassy Mountain was given -- assigned Category 4 under 15· · · ·that policy when -- when it was introduced.· I mean, I 16· · · ·wonder if you have any insight -- and if you do, 17· · · ·whether you are able to share -- as to why Grassy 18· · · ·would -- Grassy Mountain was placed as Category 4 as 19· · · ·compared to a lot of other nearby lands that -- that 20· · · ·were not in that category. 21· ·A· ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · ·You're really taxing my 22· · · ·memory. 23· ·Q· ·If -- and if it's something you -- 24· ·A· ·But -- but -- but -- 25· ·Q· ·-- can't discuss, that's fine. 26· ·A· ·I -- I -- I think it's fair -- and I did participate in ·1· ·the East Slope hearings by the Environment Conservation ·2· ·Authority, and I did make a presentation about ·3· ·reclamation, actually, and -- and particularly about ·4· ·the Blairmore coal spoils.· I was a young man; that ·5· ·before my political career got started.· It was one of ·6· ·the things I identified. ·7· · · · But I -- the reason why you will -- we will see in ·8· ·that Category 4 in that coal policy is there was active ·9· ·coal mining in the community at that time.· Con -- 10· ·Consolidated/Scurry -- Consolidated/Scurry-Rainbow had 11· ·bought the mineral leases from West Canadian 12· ·Collieries.· It's probably just less than a decade from 13· ·West Canadian Collieries disposing of assets. 14· ·Scurry -- Consolidated/Scurry-Rainbow, an oil and gas 15· ·company, Consolidated Coal United States, one of the 16· ·largest coal-mining companies and -- and bought those 17· ·leases.· They had a joint venture.· So that was only 18· ·about 10 years -- 10, 12 years after -- I'm not sure 19· ·exactly when they obtained those leases, but it was 20· ·within 10 years of the historic -- 10, 15 years, at 21· ·least, within the historic coal mining at Frank and 22· ·Greenhill Mine, and the Grassy Mountain had shut down. 23· ·There were active underground and some surface -- 24· ·active underground and surface mining taking place in 25· ·the community at that time. 26· · · · If you go back to the map that I put up, you would ·1· · · ·see on that map from the 1976 coal policy the cross -- ·2· · · ·the red crossed, which was the active Vicary Creek ·3· · · ·Racehorse Mine operated by Coleman Collieries to the ·4· · · ·north and the active Tent Mountain strip mine on the ·5· · · ·Alberta/BC border just south and -- south and west ·6· · · ·of -- of Crowsnest Lake and the -- at Tent Mountain ·7· · · ·Mine, which is -- so I think the reason why those ·8· · · ·lands were -- because there was active coal mining then ·9· · · ·being undertaken in the area and recent coal-mining 10· · · ·activity, that's why those lands were placed under 11· · · ·Category 4.· 'Cause there was active mine -- mining 12· · · ·dispositions.· Maybe at that time -- I'm not sure when 13· · · ·the Greenhill Mine permit was actually extinguished. 14· · · ·It may still have been active when Scurry-Rainbow/Consol 15· · · ·acquired those property [sic] and investigated the 16· · · ·opportunity and potential for opening a larger mine at 17· · · ·the Grassy Mountain.· I think that -- I'm trying to 18· · · ·be as -- that's my memory. 19· ·Q· ·Okay.· Thank you for that, Mr. Bradley. 20· · · · · · One last question, then.· In your presentation, 21· · · ·you raised an issue that we've also heard -- we 22· · · ·heard -- we've heard raised a couple of times already 23· · · ·in the last couple of days and also appearing in 24· · · ·comments in our registry.· So on -- we don't need to 25· · · ·bring this up, but on Slide 13 you spoke about world 26· · · ·demand for steel will continue to the foreseeable ·1· · · ·future for this issue.· So we -- we've -- we've -- ·2· · · ·you've expressed the view that -- that requirement for ·3· · · ·coking coal to make steel will continue strong, and ·4· · · ·you've linked that to world demand for steel continuing ·5· · · ·to the foreseeable future. ·6· · · · · · You know, for example, just this morning, on the ·7· · · ·other hand, I believe it was Ms. Des Moulins' ·8· · · ·presentation that disconnected the demand for steel ·9· · · ·from the demand for metallurgical coal because of the 10· · · ·potential for new technologies, one would assume, 11· · · ·driven by potential actions that you might see on 12· · · ·reducing greenhouse gas emissions and climate change. 13· · · · · · So I'm curious for your perspective on whether you 14· · · ·see the -- that continued -- you know, you've put it in 15· · · ·your presentation, but the implication of -- that the 16· · · ·demand for steel is strongly linked to the continuing 17· · · ·demand for coking coal, I suppose, what does that say 18· · · ·about your belief that actions on climate change or 19· · · ·greenhouse gas emission reduction might disconnect 20· · · ·those two things? 21· ·A· ·Well, I -- you know, I'm not -- I'm not an expert on 22· · · ·the manufacture of steel.· I have done some research on 23· · · ·that.· I think Gail had mentioned in her presentation 24· · · ·about electric-arc furnace and -- and successful 25· · · ·projects there.· That's basically where you take scrap 26· · · ·steel and make new steel products, and you don't ·1· ·require coking coal to do that 'cause you already have ·2· ·the steel manufactured.· And I think 25 percent of ·3· ·the -- I could be wrong on this, but somewhere around ·4· ·25 percent of the current steel demand in the world is ·5· ·met from this recycling of existing steel.· So you ·6· ·don't need -- you don't need coal for that.· Although ·7· ·in some of those processes, I suppose you could use ·8· ·coal to create the heat for those -- for that process, ·9· ·but the electric-arc process basically takes scrap 10· ·steel.· It doesn't need coal for that. 11· · · · There are some processes being -- and I'm not that 12· ·familiar with them -- being promoted that suggests you 13· ·make steel without carbon, without -- or not getting 14· ·carbon for the steel from -- from coking coal, from 15· ·metallurgical coal. 16· · · · So, basically, my understanding is the 17· ·metallurgical coal isn't -- isn't used for the burning; 18· ·it's the -- the pure carbon it's -- with -- with the 19· ·iron ore creates the steel.· You do have to heat that 20· ·up to a high temperature.· In some cases 21· ·thermal-generated coal is used to do that. 22· · · · But you also have to look at the investment 23· ·worldwide.· Most of the -- 98 percent, I believe, of 24· ·new steel, most of that is made with metallurgical 25· ·coal.· With coke from metallurgical coal.· Massive 26· ·investments in the world are already in those type of ·1· · · ·steelmaking facilities.· The massive investment in ·2· · · ·that, I don't see that changing dramatically over the ·3· · · ·next 25 years.· And if new technologies come forward ·4· · · ·that we can make steel without coking coal, carbon, ·5· · · ·those transitions will take place.· I don't see it ·6· · · ·taking place in the lifetime of this particular ·7· · · ·proposed project.· But that's my -- that's my layman's ·8· · · ·knowledge. ·9· ·Q· ·Fair enough.· Thank you, Mr. Bradley. 10· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. Matthews, any questions? 11· · · ·MR. MATTHEWS:· · · · · · Thank you, Mr. Bradley, for 12· · · ·your presentation.· I have no questions. 13· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you.· I have no 14· · · ·questions either, Mr. Bradley.· So, again, thanks for 15· · · ·your presentation and submission and your time here 16· · · ·today. 17· · · ·MR. BRADLEY:· · · · · · ·You're welcome. 18· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Next, we'll hear from 19· · · ·Ken Allred.· And, Mr. Allred, we'd like to have you 20· · · ·sworn or affirmed before you start as well. 21· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·He'll come up in a moment, I 22· · · ·think. 23· · · ·MR. ALLRED:· · · · · · · I'm not having much luck. 24· · · ·Here we are. 25· ·A· ·Okay. 26· · · ·KEN ALLRED, Affirmed ·1· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Go ahead, Mr. Allred. ·2· ·Presentation by Ken Allred ·3· ·MR. ALLRED:· · · · · · · Thank you very much, ·4· ·Mr. Chair, and Members of the Panel, and other ·5· ·participants.· Appreciate the opportunity to make a ·6· ·presentation. ·7· · · · Firstly, I would say I was disappointed to hear ·8· ·that some of the presenters thought there might be ·9· ·repercussions for presenting.· This is a small 10· ·community, and I know several of them, and I think we 11· ·respectfully agree or disagree on different things, but 12· ·I would certainly hope that in our community that we 13· ·respect everybody's opinion and we are prepared to have 14· ·an open, democratic debate on these issues.· They're 15· ·very important issues, and I hope that all of my 16· ·neighbours and colleagues will respect each other. 17· · · · I would commend Mr. McIntyre for his excellent 18· ·photographs and also for Mr. Bradley on his photographs 19· ·of the -- actually Grassy Mountain Mine.· I thought 20· ·those were all excellent. 21· · · · So to get on, my name is Ken Allred, and I'm a 22· ·resident of the Municipality of Crowsnest Pass, and 23· ·have lived in Blairmore since May of 2012.· I actually 24· ·have a history going back over a hundred years into the 25· ·Pass in that my grandfather was a miner in the Bellevue 26· ·Mine back at the back -- turn of the century. ·1· · · · Personally I have had -- I grew up in Waterton ·2· ·Park, and I've had some involvement with the Pass for ·3· ·about 70 years now . I -- we used to have ski exchanges ·4· ·with -- with Blairmore and with Maycroft, and so I got ·5· ·to know the Pass not really well, but fairly well at ·6· ·that time. ·7· · · · I have got no pecuniary interest in Benga Mines or ·8· ·Riversdale Resources.· I do not claim any particular ·9· ·expertise in coal mining, although I have followed the 10· ·proposals and concerns of residents and interested 11· ·parties since Riversdale commenced their studies, I 12· ·think, five or six years ago. 13· · · · I'm essentially retired, although I do serve on 14· ·one board with the Municipality, and I do some private 15· ·adjudication. 16· · · · I certainly relate to the statistics of the over 17· ·50s, and well over, I might add. 18· · · · I don't live three hours away from the proposed 19· ·mine site.· I don't live 30 minutes away.· I live 20· ·3 minutes away.· My residence is located within 21· ·3 kilometres of the site for the proposed loadout 22· ·facility.· I spent a considerable portion of my 23· ·recreational time on the Crowsnest golf course, which 24· ·is located adjacent to the proposed loadout facility, 25· ·and I'm generally familiar with the location of the 26· ·proposed developments. ·1· · · · I have not been to the actual mine site, although ·2· ·I have been up the Grassy Mountain Road and I'm ·3· ·generally familiar with the area.· I go up there quite ·4· ·often.· I used to go up there quite often till the road ·5· ·was closed.· I'm quite well acquainted with both Gold ·6· ·Creek and Blairmore Creek.· I enjoy recreational ·7· ·fishing, although I must say I have not angled in ·8· ·either of those streams. ·9· · · · My biggest concerns are the economic concerns for 10· ·the community.· Since my arrival in the Crowsnest Pass 11· ·some eight years ago, I've seen the economy of the 12· ·Crowsnest Pass deteriorate considerably.· In 2012, 13· ·Devon Energy had a gas plant in the Sentinel area.· We 14· ·had an active lime quarry located on Crowsnest Lake. 15· ·There were two grocery stores, a movie theatre, four 16· ·pharmacies, and many small businesses.· Now, in 2020, 17· ·Devon is gone, the lime works has closed, the movie 18· ·theatre is no longer.· We only have a single grocery 19· ·store and three pharmacies, and many of the smaller 20· ·mom-and-pop shops have closed.· A major hotel chain 21· ·that was proposed for a site in Blairmore a number of 22· ·years ago decided it was not viable.· We've also lost 23· ·the Blairmore Legion, which was a major contributor to 24· ·the social life in the Pass.· We've lost several very 25· ·fine restaurants because they were not economically 26· ·viable. ·1· · · · But the one saving grace for the community is that ·2· ·Riversdale Resources expanded their staff over the past ·3· ·several years to more than 20 staff persons, and a ·4· ·former pharmacy has been renovated to include offices ·5· ·for 50-plus employees for Riversdale.· Riversdale has ·6· ·engaged several consultants and has spent a ·7· ·considerable amount of money redeveloping the ·8· ·Crowsnest Pass golf course, including the construction ·9· ·of a paved access road and a brand-new clubhouse.· We 10· ·are now rated as the third-best mountain golf course in 11· ·Alberta. 12· · · · Just last Sunday, we had a meeting at the golf 13· ·club, and I understand we had a 90 to 95 percent 14· ·participation rate throughout the summer.· I personally 15· ·golfed with a lot of green feeder -- green feeders, 16· ·from out of town from as far away as St. Albert and 17· ·Edmonton, people that have really enjoyed this course 18· ·and certainly will be coming back. 19· · · · Riversdale also sponsors an annual Australia Day 20· ·dinner and a dance and a silent auction, with the 21· ·proceeds going to several local charities.· They have 22· ·also sponsored several information sessions to acquaint 23· ·members of the community with a proposed development. 24· ·They are a very good corporate citizen. 25· · · · The development of the Grassy Mountain Coal Mine 26· ·will add significant employment opportunities to local ·1· ·residents, including members of the Indigenous ·2· ·communities, as well as other Albertans.· And others. ·3· ·The skilled and semiskilled jobs will, in turn, create ·4· ·further business opportunities to revitalize the ·5· ·community. ·6· · · · Economic considerations are, therefore, very ·7· ·important to the viability of the Crowsnest Pass, as ·8· ·well as the province of Alberta, which is currently ·9· ·experiencing fiscal constraints and is in need of a 10· ·broadening of the economic base within the province. 11· · · · I spent over 40 years in the city of St. Albert. 12· ·We had a 90-10 residential/commercial split, and it was 13· ·very trying.· We had some of the highest taxes in the 14· ·province.· It's only in recent years that St. Albert 15· ·has been able to expand their commercial tax base to -- 16· ·to broaden the base to bring down the -- the split. 17· · · · Now, it's very important to emphasize the proposed 18· ·development is not for the extraction of thermal coal, 19· ·as has been previously stated, but the extraction of 20· ·metallurgical coal for shipment to foreign markets. 21· · · · Let's talk a little bit about environmental 22· ·concerns.· I've read a great deal of Riversdale 23· ·environmental studies.· I have been impressed with the 24· ·detailed consultants' reports and the continual 25· ·emphasis on mitigating any potential concerns for fish 26· ·and wildlife habitat, as well as the vegetative ·1· ·landscape.· A mine facility which is located several ·2· ·kilometres north of Blairmore is actually a reclaimed ·3· ·mine site that was abandoned decades ago when ·4· ·rehabilitation standards were virtually nonexistent. ·5· ·The proposed development plan contemplates the ·6· ·rehabilitation of developed areas on an as-completed ·7· ·basis.· I believe the proposal is to continually ·8· ·rehabilitate it as different phases are -- are ·9· ·completed. 10· · · · Now, as I understand from the documentation, all 11· ·processing of the coal will take place at the mine 12· ·site, with the clean coal being transported to the 13· ·loadout facility by an enclosed conveyor system.· The 14· ·loadout facility will be totally enclosed, and the 15· ·railcars will be loaded so as not to discharge any 16· ·residue into the air. 17· · · · Now, previous comments have been with regard to 18· ·the -- the noise factor, and I understand there are 19· ·very -- very strict environmental concerns -- 20· ·environmental restrictions as to the noise level to 21· ·be -- to come from that loadout facility.· And as a 22· ·golfer, that loadout facility is going to be located 23· ·right next to the -- the fourth green, so I will be 24· ·affected probably more than anyone else.· Myself and 25· ·other golfers, I should say. 26· · · · Now, the issue of selenium deposition in the two ·1· ·watersheds has been raised as a concern.· Firstly, I ·2· ·understand that there will be no direct contact with ·3· ·Gold Creek.· As regard to Blairmore Creek, and selenium ·4· ·in general, that issue has been the subject of ·5· ·extensive research, and the conclusions of the studies ·6· ·indicate that there will be very minimal effect of ·7· ·selenium on the watersheds.· I understand there's ·8· ·continuing technological development to reduce selenium ·9· ·even more as selenium is a fairly new by-product of 10· ·mining that first came forward in the Teck facilities 11· ·in the Sparwood area, and certainly technology is 12· ·evolving in that area to restrict selenium production 13· ·even more. 14· · · · Excuse me. 15· · · · The studies concluded there's very little risk of 16· ·potential adverse human health effects associated with 17· ·long-term exposure to the gritted surface water in 18· ·Blairmore and Gold Creek.· A similar conclusion is 19· ·advanced for the effect on birds and animals. 20· · · · Similarly, the risk associated with air quality 21· ·and noise level will be managed to maintain a level 22· ·that is below the acceptable standards.· Noise levels 23· ·can -- 24· ·MR. JUDD:· · · · · · · · Mike Judd calling in. 25· ·MR. ALLRED:· · · · · · · Sorry, have we got a problem 26· ·here? ·1· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·No.· Okay, just hold on, ·2· ·Mr. Judd.· Somebody else is still presenting.· We're ·3· ·just a little behind. ·4· ·MR. ALLRED:· · · · · · · Okay.· So where was I?· Okay, ·5· ·a similar conclusion is advanced on the effect on birds ·6· ·and animals.· Similarly, the risks associated with air ·7· ·quality -- ·8· ·THE COURT REPORTER:· · · Excuse me, sir. Mr. Allred. ·9· ·MR. ALLRED:· · · · · · · Yes? 10· ·THE COURT REPORTER:· · · Can I just get you to slow 11· ·down a little bit, and can you speak up also. 12· ·MR. ALLRED:· · · · · · · Okay.· Sorry about that. 13· ·THE COURT REPORTER:· · · That's fine. 14· ·MR. ALLRED:· · · · · · · And noise levels will be 15· ·managed to maintain a level that is below the 16· ·acceptable standards.· Noise levels from blasting to 17· ·date have been negligible even when they were within a 18· ·kilometre of the town site. 19· · · · It has been suggested that blasting can trigger a 20· ·reoccurrence of the Frank Slide.· Quite frankly, I find 21· ·this to be a stretch in view of the fact that active 22· ·mining, including blasting, took place within Turtle 23· ·Mountain for many years subsequent to the slide in 24· ·1903.· In any case, Turtle Mountain is monitored with 25· ·the most modern technology to detect even the most 26· ·minor movements. ·1· · · · It is my understanding, based on the various ·2· ·reports, that there have been extensive consultations ·3· ·with several Indigenous groups.· In particular, the ·4· ·Piikani Nation, which is the closest group to the ·5· ·project, and are located approximately 70 kilometres ·6· ·east of Grassy Mountain. ·7· · · · There must always be a balance between economic ·8· ·concerns and environmental concerns.· It is my opinion ·9· ·that development of Grassy Mountain Coal Mine is vital 10· ·to the continued economic viability to the 11· ·Crowsnest Pass.· It is further my opinion, based on the 12· ·extensive studies and consultations and the adoption of 13· ·the most up-to-date mining technology, that the 14· ·proposed development has addressed all of the potential 15· ·environmental concerns that have been raised. 16· · · · I have been impressed with the detailed 17· ·consultants' reports and the consultations with the 18· ·community and other interested parties that Riversdale 19· ·Resources has addressed all of the issues relevant to 20· ·the proposed Grassy Mountain Mine. 21· · · · I'd just like to add a few -- few things here. 22· ·Sorry.· I've lost my train of thought. 23· · · · Okay.· We've come a long ways in the last 150 24· ·years.· 150 years ago, we ploughed the land, grow 25· ·crops, and feed our -- feed our -- our population. 26· ·Coal was discovered, heated our homes, and fuelled our ·1· ·trains.· Oil and gas provided jobs and built the ·2· ·economy of Alberta to provide road services, ·3· ·infrastructure, building sites, took away -- and took ·4· ·away valuable farmlands.· There are always going to be ·5· ·compromise between noise and air pollution, and we've ·6· ·got to move ahead with our developments. ·7· · · · We talked about reclamation.· I recall years ago ·8· ·Michel and Natal were pretty dirty sites.· Even West ·9· ·Coleman had a lot of coal dust.· That's all been 10· ·reclaimed, and our technology's improved over the 11· ·years.· And the new technology is certainly a lot 12· ·better, and we're -- we've got to continue to improve 13· ·that and -- and eliminate the coal dust and things 14· ·we've seen in the past.· With the enclosed mine 15· ·facility and the -- the loadout facility and things 16· ·like that, I think we're looking forward to a much more 17· ·improved mining site than we saw 70 years ago, which 18· ·created a lot of the -- the coal -- coal dust pollution 19· ·that we had in the past. 20· · · · So I think Riversdale and Grassy Mountain have 21· ·come up with a very good proposal.· There's been 22· ·considerable studies.· I've sort of watched them over 23· ·the years.· I've been to a number of their 24· ·presentations.· And I know there are compromises with 25· ·any kind of industry, and I think they've addressed -- 26· ·they addressed the concerns as -- as well as can be ·1· · · ·expected. ·2· · · · · · So that concludes my presentation.· Thank you. ·3· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you very much, ·4· · · ·Mr. Allred.· I'll just see if anyone has any questions. ·5· · · · · · Any questions from the participants? ·6· · · ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · Yes.· Mike Sawyer here, ·7· · · ·Mr. Chairman. ·8· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Go ahead, Mr. Sawyer. ·9· · · ·Mr. Sawyer Cross-examines Ken Allred 10· ·Q· ·Good afternoon, Mr. Allred.· I just have a couple 11· · · ·questions. 12· · · · · · My understanding is that you were a surveyor and a 13· · · ·municipal and provincial politician in your working 14· · · ·life? 15· ·A· ·That is correct. 16· ·Q· ·And can you tell me, sir, do you have any training as a 17· · · ·biologist? 18· ·A· ·No, I don't. 19· ·Q· ·Do you have any training as a meteorologist? 20· ·A· ·No, I don't. 21· ·Q· ·How about -- 22· ·A· ·Very slightly am I -- in my school years, but 23· · · ·nothing -- nothing of -- 24· ·Q· ·Thanks for that, sir. 25· · · · · · And how about -- do you have any training as a 26· · · ·mine engineer? ·1· ·A· ·No, I don't. ·2· ·Q· ·Do you have any technical training that would allow you ·3· · · ·to assess the quality of Benga's application? ·4· ·A· ·No.· I speak purely as a layman.· My background, as you ·5· · · ·noted, was a surveyor, and -- and I spent a long time ·6· · · ·in municipal politics and different boards and things ·7· · · ·of that nature.· I don't have any technical expertise ·8· · · ·in that area, no. ·9· ·Q· ·Thank you, sir.· Those are all my questions. 10· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Mr. Sawyer. 11· · · · · · Any other participants? 12· · · · · · Hearing none, Ms. LaCasse or Ms. Kapel Holden, any 13· · · ·questions? 14· · · ·MS. LACASSE:· · · · · · ·We don't have any questions, 15· · · ·Mr. Chair. 16· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. 17· · · · · · Mr. Lambrecht? 18· · · ·MR. LAMBRECHT:· · · · · ·Mr. Chair, I have no questions 19· · · ·for Mr. Allred.· Thank you for his presentation to the 20· · · ·Panel this afternoon. 21· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. 22· · · · · · Mr. Matthews? 23· · · ·MR. MATTHEWS:· · · · · · I have no questions. 24· · · · · · Thank you, Mr. Allred. 25· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·And Mr. O'Gorman? 26· · · ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · · I also have no questions, but ·1· · · ·I wanted to repeat thank you, Mr. Allred, for your ·2· · · ·presentation today. ·3· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Mr. Allred, I have no ·4· · · ·questions either, but also wish to extend my thanks for ·5· · · ·your participation and your time here today. ·6· ·A· ·Okay.· Thank you for the opportunity to present. ·7· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. ·8· · · · · · I'm going to suggest, just to give the court ·9· · · ·reporter and everybody a little bit of a bio break or a 10· · · ·stretch if they need it, we take ten minutes, and then 11· · · ·Mr. Judd will be up next.· So it's 2:15, so back at 12· · · ·2:25. 13· · · ·(ADJOURNMENT) 14· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Welcome back.· Mr. Sawyer, are 15· · · ·you going to say anything before Mr. Judd starts or is 16· · · ·Mr. Judd ready to go? 17· · · ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · Mr. Chairman, I have just a 18· · · ·few things to say.· But before I get started, can I 19· · · ·just confirm, Mr. Judd, can you hear us? 20· · · ·MR. JUDD:· · · · · · · · Yes, I can hear you fine.· Can 21· · · ·you hear me? 22· · · ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · I can.· So just stand by. 23· · · ·We'll have you in just a moment here. 24· · · · · · Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Panel Members. 25· · · ·Should we get Mr. Judd sworn or affirmed now, or shall 26· · · ·I proceed? ·1· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Well, let's get him sworn, and ·2· · · ·then you can proceed. ·3· · · ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · Thank you, sir. ·4· · · ·MIKE JUDD, Affirmed ·5· · · ·Direct Evidence of Mike Judd ·6· ·Q· ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · Thank you, Mr. Judd.· I would ·7· · · ·ask that you take your time and speak clearly and ·8· · · ·slowly for the benefit of the court reporter.· Can you ·9· · · ·please -- 10· ·A· ·Okay. 11· ·Q· ·Can you please state your full name clearly for the 12· · · ·record? 13· ·A· ·My name is Mike Judd. 14· ·Q· ·Okay.· Thank you for that. 15· · · · · · Mr. Judd, can you provide a brief summary -- 16· · · ·sorry.· My apologies.· Mr. Judd, your written 17· · · ·submission is Document 544 in this proceeding.· Can you 18· · · ·confirm your submission was prepared by yourself and is 19· · · ·accurate, to the best of your knowledge? 20· ·A· ·The submission was prepared by myself and is accurate, 21· · · ·to the best of my knowledge. 22· ·Q· ·Thank you. 23· · · · · · Mr. Judd, can you provide a brief summary of where 24· · · ·you live and your background experience in the Rocky 25· · · ·Mountains of Southwest Alberta? 26· ·A· ·Yes.· I live on a quarter section northwest of Beaver ·1· · · ·Mines, about 15 kilometres south of the Crowsnest Pass. ·2· · · ·I'm a lifelong resident of the Foothills of Alberta, ·3· · · ·and I've spent the biggest part of my life guiding ·4· · · ·hunters, trail rides, and dogsled tours on the Eastern ·5· · · ·Slopes of the Rockies. ·6· · · · · · I'm also a director of the Timberwolf Society -- ·7· · · ·Wilderness Society, and I've been an advocate for ·8· · · ·protection for the East Slopes for the best part of my ·9· · · ·life. 10· ·Q· ·Thank you, sir. 11· · · ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · Mr. Chairman, Panel Members, 12· · · ·Mr. Judd is ready to proceed with his submission. 13· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay, thank you. 14· · · · · · Go ahead, Mr. Judd. 15· · · ·Presentation by Mike Judd 16· · · ·MR. JUDD:· · · · · · · · Yes.· Good afternoon, Panel 17· · · ·Members.· Nice to meet you on the telephone.· I'm sorry 18· · · ·that I'm a bit of a Luddite, and I can't keep up with 19· · · ·the modern technology, but I'll do the best I can to 20· · · ·get some kind of -- some kind of statement before you. 21· · · · · · I believe this proposed Grassy Mountain Coal Mine 22· · · ·is going to have a significant impact on the Eastern 23· · · ·Slopes, and that's why I'm making this submission. 24· · · · · · I realize that a portion of it is on privately 25· · · ·held land, but that it is going to have a large impact 26· · · ·on our public lands or our common lands, and that's the ·1· ·land that our government has an obligation to look ·2· ·after us for -- for the benefit of all of us and for ·3· ·all future generations, and I feel that there's been a ·4· ·significant abdication of that response -- ·5· ·responsibility with past governments. ·6· · · · The government is responsible to its citizens to ·7· ·maintain and regulate public lands in a manner that ·8· ·ensures the natural benefits they provide are not ·9· ·impaired for us or future generations.· And I'd like to 10· ·stress the natural benefits, which is the clean water, 11· ·the clean air, the abundance of wildlife, and the 12· ·opportunity to have recreation in a wilderness setting. 13· · · · The Grassy Mountain Coal Mine is one of those 14· ·projects that is negatively going to impact all of 15· ·those things, in my belief.· I know that cumulative 16· ·effects, the -- will be a topic that will be covered by 17· ·many of the participants in this hearing, and I only 18· ·want to add a couple of examples to that list, and they 19· ·are -- they've been given to me by personal 20· ·communication from Dr. Brian Horisi [phonetic], a 21· ·wildlife biologist.· The first one I'd like to point to 22· ·is the linear disturbance study on the 23· ·Livingstone-Porcupine Hills that was done in 2018.· It 24· ·lists Gold Creek at 1.6 kilometres of road for every 25· ·square kilometre of land; Blairmore Creek at 26· ·2.4 kilometres of road for every square kilometre of ·1· ·land, and Allison Creek, which has the highest road ·2· ·density in the whole province, is listed at 6 ·3· ·kilometres of road for every square kilometre of land. ·4· · · · Dr. Horisi pointed out to me that grizzly bear ·5· ·populations -- and I would point out that grizzly bear ·6· ·are a threatened species in Alberta.· Grizzly bear ·7· ·populations cannot remain viable with a road density ·8· ·beyond .06 kilometres of road per square kilometre.· So ·9· ·I want to ask the question:· How will this project 10· ·contribute to the road density that is already above 11· ·the threshold that grizzly bear populations can 12· ·survive? 13· · · · That's the first of the intrusions that I'd like 14· ·to talk about. 15· · · · The second one is the impact that industrial 16· ·logging has had over the past many decades on the 17· ·Eastern Slopes' watershed.· I have to ask that 18· ·philosophical question:· Does a tree in the forest 19· ·falling make a sound?· And I think I have the answer. 20· ·The answer is:· No.· We have lost millions and millions 21· ·of trees, thousands of hectares of -- of our critical 22· ·watershed on the Eastern Slopes, and it hasn't made a 23· ·sound.· There has been no public reaction to it, and 24· ·right to this day it's carrying on as if forests are 25· ·something that we'll have forever. 26· · · · All of this, and the fact that there's only ·1· ·100 square kilometres of area this -- in this area that ·2· ·has been legislatively protected, suggests that a ·3· ·strong portion of the Eastern Slopes can already be ·4· ·viewed as a developing tragedy of the commons.· And ·5· ·that is that public land is not being maintained and ·6· ·regulated to ensure sustainability for fisheries, ·7· ·wildlife, water quality, or the human quality of life. ·8· · · · I'd like to speak a little bit about the ·9· ·regular -- regulatory processes as well, if I may. 10· ·During the course of my life, I have participated in 11· ·several public hearings, mostly on oil and gas 12· ·projects, around where I live, and most of them on 13· ·public lands.· The decisions by the regulators at these 14· ·hearings have been based on the ideology that the 15· ·public interest amounts to economy, jobs, profits for 16· ·government coffers.· Virtually all other values such as 17· ·wildlife, fisheries, outdoor recreation have been 18· ·viewed as noneconomic entities that if at all 19· ·negatively impacted can be mitigated to the point that 20· ·there is no net loss. 21· · · · Not surprisingly, the decisions, with few 22· ·exceptions, have approved the applications often by 23· ·foreign-owned corporations with foreign investors who 24· ·have no stake at all in the well-being of the 25· ·environment or the local people they impact. 26· · · · The regulators who are not around to deal with the ·1· ·consequences of the -- the decisions, for example, when ·2· ·the Carbondale pipeline blew out, putting the community ·3· ·of Beaver Mines and residents of Screwdriver Creek at ·4· ·the risk of being poisoned to death by hydrogen ·5· ·sulphide.· They were not around with the question of ·6· ·how Albertans are going to deal with over a thousand ·7· ·toxic abandoned orphaned wells.· And they have many ·8· ·times demonstrated no concern for the effect of their ·9· ·approval on endangered species. 10· · · · An example of that being allowing Royal Dutch 11· ·Shell to remove and transplant mature limber pine 12· ·trees, a species at risk under federal protection, from 13· ·a wellsite, in spite of scientific literature and 14· ·expert opinion asserting that these trees would not 15· ·survive relocation.· The trees subsequently died. 16· · · · A similar attitude towards grizzly bears was 17· ·demonstrated at the same hearing when the Board refused 18· ·to hear expert testimony that a grizzly den existed 19· ·within 2 kilometres of the proposed wellsite. 20· · · · I say that the regulators in this province have 21· ·failed us, and that generally they -- they have been 22· ·aptly described as captivated by -- captive of the 23· ·industry that they are to regulate. 24· · · · The end of life for all nonrenewable resource 25· ·extraction is usually abandonment and insufficient 26· ·attempt to reclaim the damage.· An example of this ·1· ·might be the town of Cassiar that was built with the ·2· ·sole purpose of mining asbestos in northern British ·3· ·Columbia that no longer exists.· A huge railway system ·4· ·costing taxpayers millions of dollars was built all the ·5· ·way from Smithers, British Columbia, to Cassiar that ·6· ·never saw any rail movement whatsoever. ·7· · · · Well, of course, we all know what the end result ·8· ·of mining asbestos was.· In Cassiar now there are just ·9· ·a few deserted trailers and crumbled pavement where the 10· ·town was.· What -- the only thing that really exists is 11· ·a mountain of asbestos slide pile that will never be 12· ·removed by the company and that -- that produced it, 13· ·nor the British Columbia Government likely to ever 14· ·spend tax dollars on trying to repair the damage.· This 15· ·was a huge intrusion into the beautiful northern 16· ·British Columbia wilderness. 17· · · · I see this as an example to the kind of scenario 18· ·that could eventually play out if this project goes 19· ·forward.· Only instead of asbestos slide heaps, there 20· ·will be toxic tailing ponds, that -- no mountain, just 21· ·a big hole in the ground, possibly a 22· ·selenium-contaminated river system that goes all the 23· ·way to British Columbia and the Hudson Bay, native fish 24· ·gone, bears gone, the same town searching for new 25· ·employment, wildlands degraded beyond repair, company 26· ·long gone or in receivership, and no huge bond money to ·1· ·try and repair the damage.· And I think you would have ·2· ·to think in terms of billions of dollars to do that. ·3· · · · The last straw might well be that the regulatory ·4· ·body -- this regulatory body that approves this project ·5· ·in our best interest is likely no longer there either. ·6· · · · In his book Collapse:· How Societies Choose to ·7· ·Fail Or Succeed the author, Jared Diamond, arrived at ·8· ·5 -- a five-point frame work of possible contributing ·9· ·factors to consider in trying to understand any 10· ·environmental collapse.· Four of those factors -- 11· ·environmental damage, climate change, hostile 12· ·neighbours, and friendly trade partners -- may or may 13· ·not prove significant for a particular society, but the 14· ·fifth set of factors, the society's response to its 15· ·environmental problems, always proves to be 16· ·significant. 17· · · · I'm putting forward the assertion that most of 18· ·those factors that Diamond considers that produce 19· ·environmental collapse are currently present here.· The 20· ·question is:· How will our society and its regulators 21· ·respond to our environmental problems?· Will they allow 22· ·continued excessive commercial logging, knowing that 23· ·with increasing climate change and hot summers, fires 24· ·will get bigger and wilder? 25· · · · And what about our trade relations with the 26· ·United States and China?· What's that likely to do for ·1· ·exports of coal and other things? ·2· · · · How do we suppose -- propose to replace native ·3· ·cutthroat trout, grizzly bears, limber pines, whitebark ·4· ·pines, and all the many, many species of birds and ·5· ·small mammals whose populations we have no knowledge ·6· ·of? ·7· · · · I have many friends and acquaintances that live in ·8· ·the towns of the Crowsnest Pass and the surrounding ·9· ·area.· They're artists, bird-watchers, fishermen, 10· ·hunters, backcountry skiers, hikers.· None of them were 11· ·drawn to live in the Pass because it would likely 12· ·become a coal-mining community again.· They were drawn 13· ·by the beauty of the Eastern Slopes and all the things 14· ·that it has that makes life worth living.· And they 15· ·don't want to lose it, and neither do I. 16· · · · Having spent one night in a motel in Sheridan, 17· ·Wyoming, where a coal train went by every hour, I can 18· ·well imagine how disturbing it could be to live near 19· ·that kind of constant disruption, not to mention the 20· ·loud explosions from blasting randomly at any time of 21· ·the day. 22· · · · I'm submitting this, my opinion, about the 23· ·proposed mine with no intention to discredit people, 24· ·and particularly First Nation people, that want a good, 25· ·sustainable job and to live in a good environment.· My 26· ·belief is that we have to find real ways of living on ·1· ·this land without having this cross-effect on the ·2· ·natural world. ·3· · · · For decades, I was one of those people advocating ·4· ·for protection for the Castle, and for most of those ·5· ·decades we faced fierce opposition from a large range ·6· ·of industrial and special interest groups, including ·7· ·branches of the Government.· Today the Castle is a ·8· ·wildland park and a provincial park and is quickly ·9· ·becoming an economic driver for the surrounding 10· ·communities.· And I predict that that will grow 11· ·exponentially in the next and coming years because 12· ·nature and everything that it gives us is disappearing. 13· · · · I support the intervention that's going to be 14· ·presented to you by the Timberwolf Wilderness Society, 15· ·and I am petitioning this Panel to reject this 16· ·application to mine on Grassy Mountain and future 17· ·applications to mine the rest of the Eastern Slopes 18· ·based on the evidence that this will destroy indigenous 19· ·trout, has the potential for catastrophic failure of 20· ·holding ponds due to climate change, and will produce a 21· ·polluted river system, and that the amount of activity 22· ·on public land has already surpassed a sustainable 23· ·threshold. 24· · · · And I think with that, I'm -- that sums up my 25· ·feelings about this proposal.· So I'd like to thank you 26· ·for this opportunity to present it. ·1· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Mr. Judd.· If it's ·2· ·okay with you, I'll just quickly check to see if anyone ·3· ·has any questions for you. ·4· ·MR. JUDD:· · · · · · · · Yes, that's fine. ·5· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. ·6· · · · Any questions from Benga? ·7· ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · No, Mr. Chair.· Thank you. ·8· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Any questions from ·9· ·other participants? 10· · · · Hearing none, Ms. LaCasse or Ms. Kapel Holden, any 11· ·questions from AER staff? 12· ·MS. LACASSE:· · · · · · ·No, we don't have any 13· ·questions, Mr. Chair. 14· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. 15· · · · Mr. Lambrecht? 16· ·MR. LAMBRECHT:· · · · · ·I have no questions for 17· ·Mr. Judd.· Thank you, sir, for your presentation to the 18· ·Panel this afternoon. 19· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. 20· · · · Mr. O'Gorman? 21· ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · · No.· Thank you, Mr. Judd. 22· ·Appreciate your presentation.· But I don't have any 23· ·questions for you today. 24· ·MR. JUDD:· · · · · · · · Thank you. 25· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·And Mr. Matthews? 26· ·MR. MATTHEWS:· · · · · · Thank you, Mr. Judd, for your ·1· ·presentation, and I have no questions. ·2· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. Judd, I have no questions ·3· ·for you either.· Thank you very much for your ·4· ·participation.· And thanks for participating by phone. ·5· ·I know that might not have been as easy for you as ·6· ·others, but we appreciate it. ·7· ·MR. JUDD:· · · · · · · · Thank you very much. ·8· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· With that, that brings ·9· ·us to the end of the presentations from participants. 10· ·So we're about to move into the first subject matter 11· ·section, which is purpose of the project, visual 12· ·aesthetics, alternative means, land and resource use, 13· ·socioeconomic effects, and historic resources. 14· · · · I understand that Benga's going to provide a very 15· ·brief kind of opening direct, and then we would move 16· ·into cross-examination after that, starting with the 17· ·Coalition of the Alberta Wilderness Association and the 18· ·Grassy Mountain Group. 19· · · · I propose we just take a quick break here to allow 20· ·Benga to get organized and allow the Coalition to get 21· ·organized because they will be following shortly.· So 22· ·it's 2:45.· So let's return in ten minutes, at 2:55. 23· ·(ADJOURNMENT) 24· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. Ignasiak, are you ready to 25· ·go? 26· ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · We are, Mr. Chair. ·1· ·Opening Remarks by Mr. Ignasiak ·2· ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · So for this topic block, the ·3· ·Benga witness panel consists of Mr. Houston, ·4· ·Keith Bott, Pearce Shewchuk, and Mike Bartlett, who are ·5· ·in one room here in Calgary, as well as Mike Yuill, who ·6· ·is joining from Australia.· And so I think that if they ·7· ·could be affirmed or sworn now, Mr. Houston will ·8· ·deliver a short opening statement, and then we can ·9· ·proceed from there. 10· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. 11· ·UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:· · Mr. Chair, Mr. Dane McCoy 12· ·is -- is also a member of this panel, and he's in 13· ·Edmonton. 14· ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · Sorry about that. 15· ·GARY HOUSTON, PEARCE SHEWCHUK, MIKE BARTLETT, 16· ·MIKE YUILL, DANE MCCOY, Affirmed 17· ·KEITH BOTT, Sworn 18· ·Direct Evidence by Benga Mining Limited (Purpose of 19· ·Project, Visual Aesthetics, Alternative Means, Land and 20· ·Resources Use, Socioeconomic Effects, Historic 21· ·Resources) 22· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · · ·Shall I begin, Mr. Chairman? 23· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Yes, please proceed. 24· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · · ·Mr. Chair, members of the 25· ·Joint Review Panel, good afternoon.· I introduced 26· ·myself on Tuesday with our opening statement, but for ·1· ·the record, my name is Gary Houston.· I am the vice ·2· ·president external relations for Benga, for the ·3· ·proponent of the proposed Grassy Mountain Project. ·4· · · · Mr. Chair, Benga has spoken extensively to the ·5· ·socioeconomic aspects of the project in our EIA ·6· ·filings, our August 24th submission to the Panel, our ·7· ·August 5th submission to the Panel, and our opening ·8· ·statement presented at the outset of this hearing. I ·9· ·will not repeat our earlier submissions here today, but 10· ·I would like to reiterate a few key points for the 11· ·Panel. 12· · · · Mr. Chair, the Grassy Mountain Project will drive 13· ·economic growth in the Crowsnest Pass and will create 14· ·skilled, well-paid, full-time jobs.· The project's 15· ·economic benefits will extend far beyond those people 16· ·who are directly employed by Benga.· At the same time, 17· ·Benga has given its full commitment to responsible 18· ·resource development and preserving the social and 19· ·ecological values derived from the Crowsnest Pass. 20· · · · Statistics published by the Alberta Government 21· ·this past September show that unemployment in the 22· ·province currently sits near 12 percent, up from 23· ·6.6 percent in September last year.· At this time, more 24· ·than ever, the region needs investment in its natural 25· ·resources and in its people. 26· · · · The construction phase of the Grassy Mountain ·1· ·Project will create over 1,500 person years of total ·2· ·employment in Alberta and BC.· In addition, the ·3· ·construction phase of the project is expected to ·4· ·support GDP growth of 210 million in Alberta and BC. ·5· · · · During operations, there will be approximately 400 ·6· ·workers employed directly on the project, creating ·7· ·total employment effect of about 850 person years in ·8· ·Alberta and BC for each year of the project's 23-year ·9· ·life. 10· · · · The development and ongoing operation of the 11· ·project will contribute a total of 1.5 million annually 12· ·in property taxes to the Municipal District of 13· ·Ranchland and the Municipality of Crowsnest Pass.· Coal 14· ·royalties and income taxes payable to the provincial 15· ·and federal government are expected to total 16· ·$1.7 billion over the life of the project. 17· · · · Mr. Chair, Benga considers the economic 18· ·development, recreation, and tourism are compatible and 19· ·mutually supportive in the community and the region. 20· ·Diversification of the local economy beyond one 21· ·industry, whether tourism or mining, provides stability 22· ·to the community that supports local infrastructure and 23· ·investment by the Municipality.· A larger local economy 24· ·creates more opportunities for the service sector and 25· ·supports for local businesses, like restaurants and 26· ·hotels.· These service businesses in turn make the ·1· ·region a more attractive tourist destination. ·2· · · · Crowsnest Pass is already a desirable community, ·3· ·but improving its standards as a tourist destination ·4· ·also helps Benga to bring talented employees to the ·5· ·region, and that is good business. ·6· · · · Benga has policies in place to hire locally first ·7· ·and to use regionally based contractors as often as ·8· ·possible.· The project will also offer increased ·9· ·contracting opportunities for local Indigenous 10· ·businesses and employment opportunities for local 11· ·Indigenous workers. 12· · · · Benga further anticipates that the development of 13· ·the project will attract new residents to the region. 14· ·This new population will create opportunity for 15· ·residential construction and will support the growth of 16· ·local businesses. 17· · · · Benga recognizes that the region's landscape and 18· ·recreation opportunities contribute to the tourism 19· ·economy and are part of what attracts long-term 20· ·residents to the region.· The project footprint 21· ·includes an area previously disturbed by legacy mining 22· ·that was never properly reclaimed. 23· · · · These disturbed areas will be remediated and 24· ·reclaimed along with the rest of the project footprint. 25· ·This is a unique opportunity to leave the project site 26· ·in an improved state from what currently exists, ·1· ·ensuring that the Crowsnest Pass remains a desirable ·2· ·place to live and visit. ·3· · · · Something that will be covered in further depths ·4· ·in the weeks to come is Benga's conservation and ·5· ·reclamation plan.· Benga has proposed a progressive ·6· ·reclamation strategy which will see reclamation begin ·7· ·as early as Year 2 of the project operations.· Benga ·8· ·will, in this way, minimize visual impact on visual ·9· ·aesthetics and use modern, proven reclamation 10· ·techniques to return the land to a condition that 11· ·supports a full range of outdoor recreational 12· ·activities for local residents and visitors as soon as 13· ·possible following mine closure. 14· · · · Mr. Chairman, Benga has engaged public 15· ·stakeholders early, often, and constructively since 16· ·initiating its public engagement program for the 17· ·project in early 2013.· As recently as earlier this 18· ·month, the company has modified its plan in response to 19· ·recommendations received from local communities. 20· · · · As we indicated in our October 5th submission, 21· ·Benga will, in consult ation with the Municipality of 22· ·Crowsnest Pass and others, develop a community 23· ·committee for the purposes of receiving updates and 24· ·making recommendations about issues of common concern, 25· ·such as visual impacts, traffic, noise, and 26· ·socioeconomic impacts, with a goal to finding mutually ·1· ·beneficial solutions. ·2· · · · Mr. Chair, I will now turn to issues related to ·3· ·the land.· First, as mentioned by Mr. Bradley earlier ·4· ·this afternoon, the proposed mine is not affected by ·5· ·the recent change in the Alberta coal policy.· The ·6· ·project is on lands that has been identified as ·7· ·Category 4 or suitable for coal-mine development.· Over ·8· ·the coming days, you will hear from landowners who own ·9· ·properties near the project.· Some of these adjacent 10· ·landowners have expressed concern that the development 11· ·of the project may result in reduced land values and 12· ·loss of convenient access to their lands. 13· · · · Benga addressed the status of the Grassy Mountain 14· ·Road in its response evidence filed October 5th which 15· ·can be found on the registry as Document Number 571. 16· ·Although Benga understands that neighbouring landowners 17· ·have found this road convenient for accessing their 18· ·lands, the fact is that Grassy Mountain Road runs 7 19· ·kilometres across Benga's private lands.· That the road 20· ·would eventually close has been clearly communicated to 21· ·the landowners since 2015 by way of letters and 22· ·numerous signs along the road itself. 23· · · · Finally, there are two other trails in the area, 24· ·one from the north and one from the south, that may be 25· ·less convenient, but are nonetheless alternative access 26· ·routes. ·1· · · · Mr. Ackroyd, in the opening -- I'm -- I'm sorry, ·2· ·Mr. Secord.· Mr. Secord, in the opening statement for ·3· ·the Coalition of AWA and the landowners, made mention ·4· ·of the mine permit boundary.· He was concerned that two ·5· ·of his clients owned land in this boundary. ·6· · · · Mr. Chair, let me clarify that the mine permit ·7· ·boundary is an envelope that we draw around the project ·8· ·area in the early process to help us scope ·9· ·environmental field studies.· Later, once mine planning 10· ·is more advanced, the project footprint is defined 11· ·which outlines the actual project disturbance.· The 12· ·project footprint has been clearly shown in Benga's 13· ·filed documents since the EIA in 2016.· To be clear, 14· ·all of Mr. Ackroyd's -- Mr. Secord's clients are 15· ·outside of the mine footprint, and Benga has determined 16· ·that their land is not required for the safe execution 17· ·of the project. 18· · · · Mr. Chair, Benga recognizes potential impacts the 19· ·project could have on adjacent landowners.· Accordingly, 20· ·in addition to extensive consultation and mitigations 21· ·incorporated into the project, Benga implemented a 22· ·voluntary purchase program to acquire properties both 23· ·within and near the proposed project footprint.· Benga 24· ·has made formal written offers to property owners to 25· ·acquire their lands at significant premiums, and many 26· ·property owners have taken advantage of the opportunity ·1· ·to sell their properties to Benga at those premiums. ·2· · · · Benga engaged in a -- property acquisition ·3· ·negotiations in good faith and with the view to ·4· ·resolving landowners' concerns.· Benga has, once again, ·5· ·over the last several months, advised adjacent ·6· ·landowners that it is prepared to re-open property ·7· ·acquisition discussions on a reasonable basis.· Benga ·8· ·has demonstrated its willingness to modify project ·9· ·plans based on constructive recommendations from local 10· ·residents and neighbouring communities, and it will 11· ·continue to consult with landowners as the project is 12· ·developed. 13· · · · With respect to historical resources, Benga 14· ·completed a detailed impact assessment that it 15· ·submitted directly to Alberta Culture and Tourism in 16· ·2016.· This is summarized in Section E of the 17· ·Environmental Impact Assessment.· Alberta Culture and 18· ·Tourism issued a list of specific conditions, including 19· ·avoidance and site mitigation for each archaeological 20· ·site that Benga identified in its assessment. 21· · · · Archaeological excavation has taken place in 22· ·discussion with local Indigenous groups, and in the 23· ·summer of 2019, members of the Blackfoot Nation, the 24· ·Stoney Nakoda Nation, and the Tsuut'ina Nation 25· ·conducted field visits to the project excavation sites. 26· ·Furthermore, again following consultation, Benga has ·1· · · ·agreed to avoid and protect a historical Indigenous ·2· · · ·site located near the coal handling and preparation ·3· · · ·plant. ·4· · · · · · Mr. Chair, the economic benefits that this project ·5· · · ·will bring to the region are clear.· The project will ·6· · · ·promote a mutually supportive relationship between ·7· · · ·economic development, recreation, and tourism in the -- ·8· · · ·in the Crowsnest Pass.· Benga looks forward to ·9· · · ·developing a word-class coal mine right here in Alberta 10· · · ·using modern mining technology. 11· · · · · · Thank you.· And we are now ready for any 12· · · ·questions, Mr. Chair. 13· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you.· Mr. Secord, you're 14· · · ·up first. 15· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Thank you, Panel Chair, 16· · · ·Members of the Panel. 17· · · ·Mr. Secord Cross-examines Benga Mining Limited 18· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · Good afternoon, Benga Panel 19· · · ·Number 1.· My name is Richard Secord, and together with 20· · · ·my partner Ifeoma Okoye, we are lawyers with the law 21· · · ·firm Ackroyd LLP, and we represent the Coalition, which 22· · · ·is a coalition of the Alberta Wilderness Association 23· · · ·and the Grassy Mountain Group.· And the Grassy Mountain 24· · · ·Group, as you know, are comprised of local landowners. 25· · · · · · So, Mr. Houston, you actually answered my first 26· · · ·question, which is -- which was:· What is a mine permit ·1· · · ·boundary? ·2· · · · · · And I guess the second question is:· How do you ·3· · · ·decide where to draw the boundary lines?· And so ·4· · · ·perhaps we could turn up CIAR 30, PDF 110, which is ·5· · · ·Figure A.1.0-2. ·6· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·If you could just give me a ·7· · · ·minute, Mr. Secord.· I have to get my computer online ·8· · · ·here. ·9· · · ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · Can you repeat the reference, 10· · · ·Mr. Secord? 11· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · CIAR 30, PDF 110. 12· · · · · · Now, Mr. Chair, I thought that the secretariat 13· · · ·would be pulling the document up onto the screen. 14· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·That's correct.· It should 15· · · ·come up momentarily.· And if the Zoom host has trouble 16· · · ·locating it, they'll let us know.· Just take a minute 17· · · ·to locate it. 18· · · ·MR. O'GORMAN:· · · · · · What is the PDF page, 19· · · ·Mr. Secord? 20· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · 110. 21· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·It's up on the screen now, or 22· · · ·at least it should be. 23· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · Yes.· Yes. 24· · · · · · So, Mr. Houston, you should have the document up 25· · · ·on the screen -- 26· ·A· ·Yeah. ·1· ·Q· ·-- in front of you, if you haven't been able to locate ·2· · · ·it yourself. ·3· · · · · · So you'll notice that this Figure A.1.0-2 was ·4· · · ·drawn by Benga in November of 2015, and, for the most ·5· · · ·part, it is a rectangle around the proposed mine site; ·6· · · ·correct? ·7· ·A· ·Yes, I see that. ·8· ·Q· ·And I take it that was the first stab at drawing the ·9· · · ·envelope, as you put it? 10· ·A· ·Yes.· This -- this filing -- this Document Number 30 11· · · ·was completely replaced by the subsequent filing in 12· · · ·2016 in August, but -- 13· ·Q· ·And I notice -- I notice that in -- in this drawing of 14· · · ·the mine permit boundary, we have two of the three 15· · · ·ponds on the east side of the mine essentially 16· · · ·touching, and perhaps even going over the mine permit 17· · · ·boundary; correct? 18· ·A· ·Yes.· And I believe that's what led us to expanding the 19· · · ·envelope, the mine permit boundary in the 2016 20· · · ·submission. 21· ·Q· ·So let's now jump ahead nine months later, the 22· · · ·people -- who was it who was drawing the lines, 23· · · ·Mr. Houston?· Is that somebody local?· Anybody still 24· · · ·with the company, or are they all gone now? 25· ·A· ·Well, it's -- it's Benga.· The organization has 26· · · ·obviously changed since 2015. ·1· ·Q· ·Right.· And 2016? ·2· ·A· ·Yes. ·3· ·Q· ·It's changed as well since then? ·4· ·A· ·Yes. ·5· ·Q· ·Okay.· Let's turn to CIAR· ·42, Section A, PDF 126, ·6· · · ·Figure A.1.0-2. ·7· ·A· ·Section A.· That was PDF 46? ·8· ·Q· ·126. ·9· ·A· ·126, okay.· PDF 126, I don't see a figure.· Section A, 10· · · ·you said? 11· ·Q· ·Yes.· I believe it should be Figure A.5. 12· ·A· ·Maybe PDF 159, Mr. Secord? 13· ·Q· ·That could be.· Yes. 14· · · · · · So if we look at -- at this figure, it appears 15· · · ·that the mine permit boundary was shrunk on the north 16· · · ·end from the version nine months earlier.· Why was 17· · · ·that? 18· ·A· ·The -- in -- in that time frame between 2015 and 2016, 19· · · ·there was much more certainty around the outlines of 20· · · ·the project footprint, and so it allowed us to draw a 21· · · ·mine permit boundary a little bit closer to the mark. 22· · · · · · The idea, Mr. Chair, of the mine permit boundary 23· · · ·is to have a -- an envelope around the project such 24· · · ·that when we conduct our environmental studies, which 25· · · ·can -- can run over several seasons or even years, that 26· · · ·we're gathering information that absolutely covers the ·1· · · ·eventual project footprint.· So that's the purpose of ·2· · · ·drawing the mine permit boundary larger than we expect ·3· · · ·the project footprint.· And, of course, between 2015 ·4· · · ·and 2016, a lot more was known about the project ·5· · · ·footprint, so we were able to draw a more precise ·6· · · ·envelope. ·7· ·Q· ·And are you seeking approval from the Alberta Energy ·8· · · ·Regulator for the mine permit boundaries depicted in ·9· · · ·CIAR 42 on this figure? 10· ·A· ·Mr. Chair, we're -- we're seeking approval for the 11· · · ·project as we've described it, and the project 12· · · ·description clearly talks about a project footprint 13· · · ·that is roughly 1,500 hectares, and that -- that is the 14· · · ·project within the mine footprint.· The mine permit 15· · · ·boundary is much larger than that. 16· ·Q· ·But are you seeking approval of the mine permit 17· · · ·boundary? 18· ·A· ·No.· As I -- as I said, Mr. Chair, we're seeking 19· · · ·approval of the project. 20· ·Q· ·So then the mine permit boundary could be changed, I 21· · · ·take it?· The one that you've shown here, these lines 22· · · ·could be drawn differently; is that what you're saying? 23· ·A· ·Mr. Chair, the -- the mine permit -- permit boundary 24· · · ·simply illustrates where we have focused our 25· · · ·environmental assessments, and -- and that's all. 26· · · ·The -- the -- the application is for the project, which ·1· · · ·entails the pit, the ponds, the exit at rock dumps, the ·2· · · ·conveyor, the coal-handling plant, and the rail ·3· · · ·loadout, all of which are depicted on the map. ·4· ·Q· ·So do you get a permit, then, for the boundary that ·5· · · ·you've applied for as a result of this application, ·6· · · ·assuming that it's approved? ·7· ·A· ·Mr. Chair, we -- we are expecting a permit for the ·8· · · ·project. ·9· ·Q· ·But not for the boundaries that we see here in this 10· · · ·figure? 11· ·A· ·We're expecting a permit for the project that we've 12· · · ·applied for, Mr. Secord. 13· ·Q· ·So if we look at this figure from CIAR 42, I notice 14· · · ·that the mine permit boundary changed to include 15· · · ·portions of northeast 30 and 30 -- and northeast 16· · · ·31-8-3-W5 and a portion of southeast 6-9-3-W5; is that 17· · · ·correct? 18· ·A· ·That's correct. 19· ·Q· ·And I take it the reason why the mine permit boundaries 20· · · ·were expanded in those locations was because of these 21· · · ·ponds that were -- are being proposed as part of the 22· · · ·mining operation? 23· ·A· ·It -- it was to ensure that we studied an area 24· · · ·sufficiently large to -- to cover the ponds, yes. 25· ·Q· ·Right. 26· · · · · · And so when you -- assuming you get an approval of ·1· · · ·this project, does that give you complete access to ·2· · · ·construct and operate these ponds in portions of ·3· · · ·northeast 30, northeast 31-8-3-W5 and southeast ·4· · · ·6-9-3-W5. ·5· · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· · · I'm sorry, Mr. Secord, can I ·6· · · ·get you to speak up, please, and can you -- can you ·7· · · ·repeat the land. ·8· ·Q· ·MR.· SECORD:· · · · · ·I sure can. ·9· · · · · · The land descriptions are NE30 and NE31 and 8-3-W5 10· · · ·and SE6 in 9-3-W5. 11· ·A· ·So could you repeat the question, Mr. Secord.· I'm 12· · · ·sorry. 13· ·Q· ·So by including portions of NE 30, NE 31-8-3-W5 and 14· · · ·SE 6-9-3-W5, by drawing the mine permit boundary in the 15· · · ·way you've done, does that give -- assuming you got an 16· · · ·approval of this application, does that give Benga the 17· · · ·ability to have complete access in and around those 18· · · ·ponds that are shown on this figure? 19· ·A· ·Mr. Secord, we expect that the permit will allow us to 20· · · ·build a project substantially as is shown.· Naturally, 21· · · ·during the detailed design phases, there will be minor 22· · · ·changes.· I would expect if it shifts significantly 23· · · ·from what is shown in this map that we would have to go 24· · · ·back to the regulator and -- and discuss those changes. 25· ·Q· ·All right. 26· · · · · · If you could turn to October 2020 CIAR 571, ·1· · · ·Figure 1 at PDF 38. ·2· ·A· ·PDF 38.· Yes.· I'm there, Mr. Secord. ·3· ·Q· ·And if you could scroll down to the very bottom of ·4· · · ·the -- of that figure.· I was curious about the drawing ·5· · · ·of the mine permit boundary.· So perhaps you would ·6· · · ·agree that, for the most part, the mine permit boundary ·7· · · ·covers lands that are either publicly owned or owned by ·8· · · ·Benga.· Would that be fair? ·9· ·A· ·The mine permit boundary, Mr. Secord? 10· ·Q· ·Yeah.· Maybe to -- Mr. Houston, to help you, if you 11· · · ·look at the legend at the bottom of Figure 1, you'll 12· · · ·see that there is a dotted line called "Proposed mine 13· · · ·permit boundary".· Do you see that blue figure? 14· ·A· ·Yes. 15· ·Q· ·That blue dash. 16· · · · · · And so if you look at Figure 1, you'll notice that 17· · · ·there is a blue dashed line around the north dump, the 18· · · ·open-cut pit, the south dump, the topsoil storage, 19· · · ·et cetera.· So you have that blue dotted line that 20· · · ·essentially covers the proposed mine site.· And then it 21· · · ·moves south towards the town of Blairmore. 22· · · · · · And so my question, I think, is fairly 23· · · ·straightforward:· You would agree with me that within 24· · · ·this mine permit boundary, for the most part, the land 25· · · ·inside of that is owned by Benga or is Crown land, 26· · · ·public land; correct? ·1· ·A· ·Within the mine permit boundary, with -- with notable ·2· · · ·exceptions, I would say, yeah, there -- there's private ·3· · · ·land owned by your client, obviously -- ·4· ·Q· ·Sure. ·5· ·A· ·-- on the east side of the -- ·6· ·Q· ·Sure.· I'm just saying for the most part. ·7· ·A· ·Yes. ·8· ·Q· ·Yeah.· And then if you go down to the bottom of the ·9· · · ·Figure 1, you'll see that where you have the conveyor 10· · · ·system running from the mine site to the proposed rail 11· · · ·loadout, right, the green -- that green line which -- 12· · · ·which is in Section 2, it is the proposed rail loadout 13· · · ·facility; correct? 14· ·A· ·Yes. 15· ·Q· ·You'll notice that the blue line takes some interesting 16· · · ·twists and turns.· It seems to go along Highway 17· · · ·Number 3 from Blairmore up to Coleman some -- a 18· · · ·distance towards Coleman, and then appears to take 19· · · ·in -- it looks to me like it entirely takes in the golf 20· · · ·course. 21· · · · · · And I'm just wondering what -- why is that, 22· · · ·speaking, you know, from a -- why is it that you draw 23· · · ·the mine permit boundary as taking in what appears to 24· · · ·be quite a bit of privately owned land in Section 2, 25· · · ·for instance? 26· ·A· ·And we're talking to the -- to the west of the -- the ·1· · · ·green rail loop?· Is that where you're ... ·2· ·Q· ·Well, there's not much to look at there, Mr. Houston. ·3· · · ·If you come down the conveyor -- ·4· ·A· ·Yeah. ·5· ·Q· ·-- right?· If you come -- let's just -- basically, ·6· · · ·we're following Grassy Mountain Road through ·7· · · ·Section 14.· You're heading south.· You go through ·8· · · ·Section 11 on the west side, and then you're coming ·9· · · ·into Section 2; and it appears, according to the 10· · · ·legend, that your mine permit boundary is taking in 11· · · ·some freehold land in this area; and, again, it seems 12· · · ·to stretch along Highway Number 3, you know, halfway up 13· · · ·towards Coleman, and then comes back. 14· · · · · · I am just wondering, why is the mine permit 15· · · ·boundary drawn in this fashion? 16· ·A· ·So, Mr. Secord, the connection to the CP Rail is on the 17· · · ·east side of Blairmore, I would say on this map, 18· · · ·perhaps halfway between Blairmore and Coleman, and so 19· · · ·there is a rail line connector, let's say, to -- to the 20· · · ·CP Rail that runs east from the rail loop, along the 21· · · ·highway, and then will eventually cross underneath the 22· · · ·highway and join up with the CP Rail -- you know, as I 23· · · ·said, halfway between Blairmore and -- and Coleman. 24· ·Q· ·All right. 25· · · · · · So in -- if we turn to CIAR· -- CIAR 571, your 26· · · ·response evidence, PDF 7, Item 3.1.1, it says Benga ·1· · · ·identified four landowner group -- four landowner group ·2· · · ·members of the Coalition as owning land adjacent to the ·3· · · ·project site. ·4· · · · · · And so if we look at -- I don't know if you need ·5· · · ·to turn that up, but if you look at the Figure 1 that ·6· · · ·we have in front of us, you're saying that Mrs. Gilmar, ·7· · · ·Fran Gilmar, and Larry and Ed Donkersgoed and their ·8· · · ·property owned by Donkersgoed Feeders, and Berdina, ·9· · · ·you're saying even though they're within the mine 10· · · ·permit boundary, they are -- they are adjacent to the 11· · · ·project?· Is that what -- 12· ·A· ·Correct. 13· ·Q· ·-- I understood you to say in your opening remarks? 14· ·A· ·That's -- 15· ·Q· ·So the mine -- 16· ·A· ·-- correct. 17· ·Q· ·So the mine permit boundary, then, is really 18· · · ·meaningless? 19· ·A· ·Not meaningless.· It -- it gives us a scope and a 20· · · ·framework for conducting environmental studies and -- 21· · · ·and so early in the project, you're not quite sure 22· · · ·where the mine footprint is going to land.· The 23· · · ·engineering -- there is the conceptual engineering goes 24· · · ·on in parallel to the environmental studies, which -- 25· · · ·which need to stretch across multiple seasons, and so 26· · · ·we -- we start with a big envelope, the mine permit ·1· · · ·boundary for those environmental studies.· And later, ·2· · · ·once the mine footprint is defined, that becomes the ·3· · · ·project. ·4· · · · · · So, yes, your clients are adjacent to the project. ·5· ·Q· ·So if we look at, for instance, the property above ·6· · · ·Donkersgoed Feeders, the northwest quarter section of ·7· · · ·19, there is a pond there with the initials "SESP". ·8· · · ·Could you tell me:· What does "SESP" stand for? ·9· ·A· ·Southeast surge pond. 10· ·Q· ·Okay.· So Larry and Ed Donkersgoed's property is 11· · · ·directly south of this southeast surge pond inside the 12· · · ·mine permit boundary directly south of this pond, but 13· · · ·they are not within the mine boundary but adjacent to 14· · · ·it. 15· · · · · · Is that -- is that the -- do I understand that 16· · · ·correctly? 17· ·A· ·That's correct. 18· ·Q· ·And so why didn't you then draw those dotted lines to 19· · · ·go -- rather than running between Donkersgoed and 20· · · ·Sun Cured Alfalfa Cubes Inc., why didn't you draw the 21· · · ·lines going between the northwest of 19 and the 22· · · ·southwest of 19?· Why didn't you put the Donkersgoed 23· · · ·property outside of the mine permit boundary area? 24· ·A· ·As I indicated -- 25· ·Q· ·It's not -- 26· ·A· ·As I indicated, when we drew the mine permit boundary, ·1· · · ·we were -- we weren't completely finished with our ·2· · · ·conceptual design with the mine, and so needed to ·3· · · ·ensure that the environmental studies that we did ·4· · · ·encompassed enough land so that the entire footprint ·5· · · ·would fall inside, so we -- we drew a generous line for ·6· · · ·the purpose of conducting the environmental studies. ·7· ·Q· ·So did your environmental studies then not include ·8· · · ·Mr. Watmough's land in the southeast of 19 or ·9· · · ·Vern Emard's land in the southeast of 30? 10· ·A· ·And so in terms of vegetation surveys and wildlife 11· · · ·surveys, bird surveys, that's correct.· We -- we 12· · · ·wouldn't have strayed as far outside of the -- that far 13· · · ·outside of the mine permit boundary.· We would have -- 14· · · ·we would have scoped those studies to be within the 15· · · ·blue dotted line. 16· ·Q· ·All right. 17· · · · · · So maybe we can just leave -- leave the issue of 18· · · ·whether Donkersgoed Feeders and Fran Gilmar are 19· · · ·adjacent to or inside the mine permit boundary to the 20· · · ·side. 21· · · · · · I'd like to refer you to the Coal Conservation 22· · · ·Act, and in particular the Coal Conservation Rules, 23· · · ·Alberta Regulation 270/1981, with amendments up to and 24· · · ·including Alberta Regulation 10/2019.· And I'm going to 25· · · ·read to you Section 4.1(c), and it says that: 26· · · ·(as read) ·1· · · · · · An application for a permit to develop a mine ·2· · · · · · site to the stage of commercial coal ·3· · · · · · production shall include, where applicable, ·4· · · · · · (c) a statement of the applicant's rights to ·5· · · · · · the coal and use of the land surface and a ·6· · · · · · legal description of the lands to which those ·7· · · · · · rights apply. ·8· · · ·So I'd just like to explore Benga's rights to the use ·9· · · ·of the land surface. 10· · · · · · And if we could turn to Aid to Cross AQ1, an 11· · · ·annotated client map. 12· ·A· ·Aid to cross ... 13· ·Q· ·It's an annotated client map.· And I got from -- an 14· · · ·annotated client map.· And I believe Ms. Utting has 15· · · ·assigned it references AQ1 for -- I think for ease of 16· · · ·her pulling up the document. 17· ·A· ·I -- I don't have the AQ symbols.· I'm using the files 18· · · ·that you sent. 19· ·Q· ·So -- so it would be -- 20· ·A· ·From the -- 21· · · ·(INDISCERNIBLE - OVERLAPPING SPEAKERS) 22· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · That would be annotated client 23· · · ·map. 24· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·I have it. 25· ·Q· ·And it would appear you will -- you'll note that at the 26· · · ·bottom of the map, we have the -- an -- an -- an arrow ·1· · · ·pointing to Shirley Kirby. ·2· · · · · · Do you see that -- ·3· ·A· ·Yes.· Yeah. ·4· ·Q· ·-- at the bottom of the map? ·5· ·A· ·Yeah. ·6· ·Q· ·And she would be, what, less than 800 metres from the ·7· · · ·mine permit boundary? ·8· ·A· ·Yes.· Of that magnitude, yeah. ·9· ·Q· ·Right.· And then you see on the bottom corner there, 10· · · ·you have John and Rae Redekopp and David Rothlin -- 11· · · ·Rothlin and Kevin Lehr, who -- sorry, Kari Lehr, who 12· · · ·are just north of -- of Frank; correct? 13· ·A· ·Yes.· Yes. 14· ·Q· ·And then we've annotated the south half of Section 19 15· · · ·to show Larry Donkersgoed, Donkersgoed Feeders, and 16· · · ·then Ed Donkersgoed on that southwest quarter of 19 and 17· · · ·then Sun Cured Alfalfa Cubes, Norm and Connie Watmough 18· · · ·and Tyler Watmough. 19· · · · · · So you see those changes? 20· ·A· ·Yes. 21· ·Q· ·And so what I'd like to do is -- is just, first of all, 22· · · ·at a high level, look at each of the quarter sections 23· · · ·covering Grassy Mountain Road and what is being 24· · · ·proposed in each section. 25· · · · · · So if we go and scroll down to the bottom of this 26· · · ·annotated Figure 1, we see, according to the legend, ·1· · · ·what would be a paved road coming off Highway 3, coming ·2· · · ·through Section 2 as it goes through the Crowsnest Pass ·3· · · ·Golf & Country Club; correct. ·4· ·A· ·Yes. ·5· ·Q· ·And that would be a paved road right up until it ·6· · · ·reaches, basically, the southwest quarter of ·7· · · ·Section 11; is that fair? ·8· ·A· ·Yes. ·9· ·Q· ·And then Grassy Mountain Road then moves through the 10· · · ·west half of Section 11 as it moves north; correct? 11· ·A· ·Yes, that's correct. 12· ·Q· ·And then it moves sort of on a diagonal towards the 13· · · ·northeast through the southwest quarter of Section 14 14· · · ·through what is, I think, a -- a piece of land owned by 15· · · ·the province; correct?· That little circular -- or sort 16· · · ·of oblong shape within the southwest of -- of 14 is a 17· · · ·public works area; correct? 18· ·A· ·That is provincial Crown land, yes. 19· ·Q· ·Right. 20· · · · · · And then it angles through the northwest quarter 21· · · ·of 14 and then moves into what would be the southeast 22· · · ·quarter of 23; correct? 23· ·A· ·That is correct. 24· ·Q· ·And then from there, Grassy Mountain Road moves through 25· · · ·the southwest quarter of 24 and comes up sort of the 26· · · ·boundary line between the northwest and the northeast ·1· · · ·quarter of 24.· Do I have that right? ·2· ·A· ·Yes. ·3· ·Q· ·And then from there, it moves through the northeast of ·4· · · ·24, the bottom leg of it moves into Section 19, and the ·5· · · ·road then services the lands that are occupied by my ·6· · · ·clients, the Donkersgoeds, the Watmoughs, and ·7· · · ·Vern Emard.· Do I have that right? ·8· ·A· ·I -- I would only comment that the -- the road is not ·9· · · ·the same quality throughout the entire journey here, 10· · · ·Mr. Secord.· The road changes qualities significantly. 11· ·Q· ·Sure.· And we're just -- I mean, we're just dealing 12· · · ·with this at a high level right now. 13· ·A· ·Yes.· Yes. 14· ·Q· ·I'm just trying -- I'm just trying to familiarize the 15· · · ·Panel with the coordinates, the legal land 16· · · ·descriptions, and we can get into road quality later. 17· ·A· ·Okay. 18· ·Q· ·And then we have the Grassy Mountain Road as well 19· · · ·moving into a portion of -- I guess it would be the 20· · · ·south half of Section 23 -- sorry, Section 25. I 21· · · ·believe that's right.· Just to the north of Section 24. 22· · · ·That is the south half -- 23· ·A· ·Yes. 24· ·Q· ·-- of 25? 25· ·A· ·Yes. 26· ·Q· ·And then from there, it moves to the east, into ·1· · · ·Fran Gilmar's property, and then continues north? ·2· ·A· ·That's right. ·3· ·Q· ·Correct?· Okay. ·4· ·A· ·Yeah. ·5· ·Q· ·So if we could now turn to the GMR land titles.· This ·6· · · ·is AQ4, Aid to Cross 4. ·7· ·A· ·GMR land titles? ·8· ·Q· ·Yeah. ·9· ·A· ·Okay. 10· ·Q· ·Great.· And that's up on the screen as well.· Perfect. 11· · · · · · So having gone over at a high level the -- the 12· · · ·route that the Grassy Mountain Road follows, if we go 13· · · ·to PDF 1 -- 14· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Oh, I should mention, could I 15· · · ·get an exhibit number, Mr. Chair, for the annotated 16· · · ·client map? 17· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·And you're just wanting these 18· · · ·marked for information? 19· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · I think they can be marked as 20· · · ·a full exhibit. 21· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Do we have a number? 22· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Whatever the next number would 23· · · ·be. 24· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Yeah.· I'm just looking to 25· · · ·staff to provide a number. 26· · · ·MS. UTTING:· · · · · · · Mr. Chair, I can confirm ·1· · · ·that's CIAR 752. ·2· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you. ·3· · · · · · EXHIBIT CIAR 752 - AQ1 - COALITION - AID TO ·4· · · · · · CROSS_ANNOTATED CLIENT MAP FROM CIAR 571 ·5· · · · · · page 38 ·6· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · So if we turn to PDF 1 of Aid ·7· · · ·to Cross AQ2. ·8· · · · · · And, perhaps, Mr. Chairman, could we give this the ·9· · · ·reference CIA 753 for ease of reference?· Is that 10· · · ·agreeable? 11· · · ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · No objection, Mr. Chair. 12· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Thank you, Mr. Ignasiak. 13· · · · · · EXHIBIT CIAR 753 - AQ4 - COALITION - AID TO 14· · · · · · CROSS_GMR LAND TITLES 15· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · So on page 1 you'll see this 16· · · ·is a title to the northwest quarter of Section 2; 17· · · ·correct? 18· ·A· ·Yes, I see that. 19· ·Q· ·And it's subject to a restrictive covenant, 1111324957 20· · · ·on the second -- on PDF page 2; correct? 21· ·A· ·I see that, yes. 22· ·Q· ·And Benga is the owner of this title; correct? 23· ·A· ·Yes. 24· ·Q· ·All right. 25· · · · · · And then if we move to PDF 4, this is a title to 26· · · ·the northwest quarter of 2-8-4-W5M.· Benga again is the ·1· · · ·registered owner, shown on page 3; and on page 4, it ·2· · · ·indicates that this is also subject to a restrictive ·3· · · ·covenant? ·4· ·A· ·I see that. ·5· ·Q· ·Okay.· And then as we move north into -- we have a ·6· · · ·title on PDF page 5 to the northwest quarter of ·7· · · ·11-8-4-W5, the northeast quarter of 11-8-4-W5, the -- ·8· · · ·and the southwest quarter of 11-8-4-W5, and the ·9· · · ·southeast quarter of 11-8-4-W5.· And on this -- on this 10· · · ·property, again, Benga's shown as the owner of the -- 11· · · ·of -- of this section of land; correct? 12· ·A· ·Yes. 13· ·Q· ·These quarters are also subject to that same 14· · · ·restrictive covenant? 15· ·A· ·Yes. 16· ·Q· ·And this land is also subject to an easement 201185904 17· · · ·that was filed 14 days ago, on October the 15th, 2020; 18· · · ·correct? 19· ·A· ·Yes. 20· ·Q· ·And if we could turn up Aid to Cross AQ11. 21· ·A· ·What is the title of that one, Mr. Secord? 22· ·Q· ·It's "Southwest 11 Road Easement". 23· ·A· ·Okay.· I have that. 24· ·Q· ·And this is entitled the "Road Easement and Maintenance 25· · · ·Agreement" effective -- dated effective the 30th day of 26· · · ·October 2020 between Benga Mining Limited and the ·1· · · ·Crowsnest Pass Golf & Country Club, and it indicates ·2· · · ·that Benga is or is entitled to become the registered ·3· · · ·owner of an estate in fee simple of the lands and ·4· · · ·premises described in Schedule A.· And the club is ·5· · · ·entitled to be -- is or is entitled to become the ·6· · · ·registered owner of an estate in fee simple of the ·7· · · ·lands and premises described in Schedule B. ·8· · · · · · And if we scroll down to PDF 17, the Benga ·9· · · ·Schedule A lands are described as Parcel 1 and 10· · · ·Parcel 2, Parcel 2 being the southwest quarter of 11· · · ·11-8-4-W5.· Do I have that correct? 12· ·A· ·Yes. 13· ·Q· ·And the Schedule B lands are described as -- the club 14· · · ·lands is described as, firstly, Plan 1711126, Lot 1, 15· · · ·Block 3, and then Plan 2011720, Block 1, Lot 4. 16· · · · · · So going back to -- to the PDF page 2. 17· ·A· ·Same document? 18· ·Q· ·Yeah.· It says that:· (as read) 19· · · · · · Pursuant to the terms of a certain project 20· · · · · · development agreement between the parties 21· · · · · · dated April 26th, 2017, Benga undertook to 22· · · · · · realign and construct a shared road for the 23· · · · · · mutual benefit of the Benga lands and the 24· · · · · · club lands. 25· · · ·It goes on in paragraph (e) to say Benga --· (as read) 26· · · · · · The Benga landowner may wish to construct an ·1· · · · · · alternate road, as hereinafter defined, for ·2· · · · · · the purpose of providing replacement access. ·3· · · ·So can you tell me by way of background how did this ·4· · · ·road easement and maintenance agreement come about? ·5· ·A· ·Mr. Chairman, I guess it's no secret that we did a land ·6· · · ·swap with the golf course.· We -- we exchanged land ·7· · · ·and -- and assisted with the development of nine new ·8· · · ·holes of -- of golf course and -- and a golf club -- ·9· · · ·clubhouse, and we -- we've heard from other people who 10· · · ·spoke today that that seems to have been well-received 11· · · ·in -- in the community and, in fact, is -- is talked 12· · · ·about as one of the top three golf courses in -- in -- 13· · · ·in the Rocky Mountains, if I -- if I remember what the 14· · · ·quote was. 15· · · · · · To do that, there were a number of agreements 16· · · ·between the -- the golf course and -- and Benga to 17· · · ·facilitate that land swap, and this -- this land -- or 18· · · ·this road-use agreement is -- is one of those. 19· ·Q· ·And what roads -- what -- what roads are Benga planning 20· · · ·to realign or reconfigure? 21· ·A· ·Mr. Chairman, the project, if approved, Benga will have 22· · · ·to arrange for access that's suitable for -- for the 23· · · ·project that -- concerning the equipment we have to 24· · · ·move to site and -- and traffic, and so there -- there 25· · · ·are portions of the road that we may -- we may need to 26· · · ·construct that are on a -- a different alignment ·1· · · ·than -- than the current golf course access road. ·2· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Mr. Chair, could we mark this ·3· · · ·document as CIA -- CIAR 754? ·4· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. Ignasiak, any concerns? ·5· · · ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · No, sir. ·6· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Staff, that's the ·7· · · ·correct number? ·8· · · ·MS. UTTING:· · · · · · · I can confirm it is, ·9· · · ·Mr. Chair. 10· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. 11· · · · · · EXHIBIT CIAR 754 - AQ11 - COALITION - AID TO 12· · · · · · CROSS_SW 11_ROAD EASEMENT_201185904 13· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · So if we could turn back to 14· · · ·CIAR 753, the Land Titles document.· And, again, just 15· · · ·following the trail of the Grassy Mountain Road as it 16· · · ·moves from Blairmore towards my clients' residence, on 17· · · ·PDF 8 we have the title of the northeast quarter of 18· · · ·14-5 -- sorry, 14-8-4 -- northeast quarter of 19· · · ·Section 14-8-4-W5M, again, on page 8 it indicates 20· · · ·that -- 21· ·A· ·I'm sorry, Mr. Secord.· Did you lose your audio? 22· ·Q· ·No.· I'm sorry.· I'm going -- do you have in front of 23· · · ·you PDF 8?· PDF 8 of -- 24· ·A· ·Yes. 25· ·Q· ·-- the GMR Land Titles? 26· ·A· ·Yes. ·1· ·Q· ·So this is a title to the northeast quarter of ·2· · · ·14-8-4-W5M; correct? ·3· ·A· ·Yes. ·4· ·Q· ·And then if we go to page PDF 10, we have another title ·5· · · ·to the northwest quarter of 14-8-4-W5 as well as the ·6· · · ·southwest quarter of 8-4-W5.· And this is in the name ·7· · · ·of Benga Mining Limited? ·8· ·A· ·Yes. ·9· ·Q· ·And this title is subject to that same restrictive 10· · · ·covenant that we referred to earlier.· You can confirm 11· · · ·that? 12· ·A· ·Yes. 13· ·Q· ·And then as we move to PDF 12, this is the title to the 14· · · ·northwest quarter of 14-8-4-W5M, again, in the name of 15· · · ·Benga.· And on page 13, subject to the same restrictive 16· · · ·covenant.· Agreed? 17· ·A· ·Yes. 18· ·Q· ·And then moving into PDF 14, we have the titles to the 19· · · ·northeast quarter of 23-8-4-W5 and the southeast 20· · · ·quarter of 23-8-4-W5, again, in the name of Benga and, 21· · · ·again, subject to the same restrictive covenant on PDF 22· · · ·15; correct? 23· ·A· ·Yes. 24· ·Q· ·Then moving to PDF 16, we have title to the northeast 25· · · ·quarter of 23 and the southeast quarter of 23, and on 26· · · ·PDF 17, again, the same restrictive covenant has been ·1· · · ·registered.· Agreed? ·2· ·A· ·Yes. ·3· ·Q· ·Then moving to PDF 18, we have title to the northwest ·4· · · ·quarter of 24 and the southwest quarter of 24 in the ·5· · · ·name of Benga, and on PDF 19, again, the same ·6· · · ·restrictive covenant has been registered.· Agreed? ·7· ·A· ·Yes. ·8· ·Q· ·And then if we move to PDF 20, we have the northwest ·9· · · ·quarter of 24 and the southwest quarter of 24 in the 10· · · ·name of Benga and, again, the same restrictive covenant 11· · · ·registered on PDF 21? 12· ·A· ·Yes. 13· ·Q· ·And then moving to the northeast quarter of 24-8-4-W5M, 14· · · ·we have the title in the name of Benga on PDF 22, and 15· · · ·then on PDF 23, we have Instrument Number 921 280 727, 16· · · ·an easement registered on the sixth day of November 17· · · ·1992, and the easement relates to access over the south 18· · · ·half and the northwest quarter of 19-8-3-W5 and the 19· · · ·northeast quarter of 24-8-4-W5.· The benefit of 20· · · ·Section 19-8-3-W5, Section 30-8-3-W5, and the south 21· · · ·half and northwest quarter of 31-8-3-W5.· Do I have 22· · · ·that right? 23· ·A· ·Just one minute.· I lost track of where we are. 24· ·Q· ·That's PDF 23. 25· ·A· ·Okay.· No.· I've literally lost track of where we are 26· · · ·on the land.· I'm trying to follow along.· That's the ·1· · · ·northeast of 24. ·2· ·Q· ·So, basically, it's right opposite that the southeast ·3· · · ·surge pond we talked about earlier.· Basically right in ·4· · · ·between the basically south -- southwest of the ·5· · · ·Gilmars' and northwest of the Donkersgoeds' property. ·6· · · · · · Do you know where we are now? ·7· ·A· ·I found it.· Yes. ·8· ·Q· ·Okay.· And if we move, then, to the next title, PDF 24, ·9· · · ·we have essentially the titles to the north, which 10· · · ·would be section -- the northwest of 25, southwest of 11· · · ·25, southeast of 25, and in the name of Benga.· Again, 12· · · ·subject to that same restrictive covenant on PDF 25; 13· · · ·agreed? 14· ·A· ·It's the northwest of 25, the southwest and the 15· · · ·southeast of 25.· And the restrictive covenant.· Yes, I 16· · · ·see it. 17· ·Q· ·Yes.· And then moving to -- moving down to PDF 26, we 18· · · ·have, again, further titles to the southeast and 19· · · ·southwest quarter of 25, also the, I guess, northwest 20· · · ·quarter of 25? 21· ·A· ·So we're on PDF 26.· Am I right? 22· ·Q· ·Yeah. 23· ·A· ·I see those. 24· ·Q· ·Right.· And then if we go to PDF 28, we have the -- 25· · · ·unfortunately, the restrictive covenant, for some 26· · · ·reason, appears upside down, at least on my version. I ·1· · · ·don't know if it's corrected on yours.· But you may ·2· · · ·need to rotate that. ·3· · · · · · Do you have the restrictive covenant on PDF 29? ·4· ·A· ·Yeah.· Upside down. ·5· ·Q· ·Yeah.· So hopefully -- hopefully the Panel's staff can ·6· · · ·rotate it so that we can look at it.· There we go. ·7· · · ·Thank you very much. ·8· · · · · · So this is a restrictive covenant made the 12th of ·9· · · ·September 2011 between Devon Canada and Consol Canada 10· · · ·and the Crowsnest Pass Golf & Country Club.· And in its 11· · · ·recitals it says that Devon is the sole registered 12· · · ·owner of certain lands described in the Schedule A. 13· · · ·Devon and Consol jointly own each as to an undivided 14· · · ·one-half interest in the lands described in Schedule B. 15· · · ·And the club is registered -- is the registered and 16· · · ·beneficial owner of certain lands described in 17· · · ·Plan 0815531, Block 1, Lot 2. 18· · · · · · So all of your titles appear to be subject to this 19· · · ·restrictive covenant.· And I notice that in the -- in 20· · · ·paragraph 1, it indicates that the grantor -- and "the 21· · · ·grantor" means the club.· It says:· (as read) 22· · · · · · The grantor does hereby covenant and agree 23· · · · · · to, with, and in favour of the grantee [this 24· · · · · · is on PDF 30] to observe, adhere to, and be 25· · · · · · bound by those covenants, restrictions, and 26· · · · · · prohibitions in respect of the golf course ·1· · · · lands being, namely, that:· The grantor shall ·2· · · · not -- shall not and shall not permit the ·3· · · · rezoning of the golf course lands for any use ·4· · · · which is incompatible with the grantee's ·5· · · · mining activities, which shall include and -- ·6· · · · without limitation, access by vehicle or on ·7· · · · foot and exploration, permitting, and ·8· · · · reclamation activities, now or in the future, ·9· · · · carried on in respect of the Devon/Consol 10· · · · lands; [and] 2, the grantor shall not -- and 11· · · · shall not permit the use of all or any 12· · · · portion of the golf course lands for 13· · · · residential purposes, whether or not zoned 14· · · · for such purposes. 15· ·And then in paragraph 9 it indicates:· (as read) 16· · · · The grantor agrees [this is the golf club 17· · · · agrees] that it will not impose any future 18· · · · development applications by the grantee for 19· · · · the development of the coal reserves on the 20· · · · grantee's properties lying north of the 21· · · · Devon/Consol lands or the golf ... 22· ·I think it says "gold course lands".· This is in 23· ·paragraph 9 of page 31.· It's probably a typo.· It 24· ·should be "golf course lands". 25· · · · I take it the golf course is not opposing to 26· ·Benga's application in this hearing? ·1· ·A· ·It is not -- they have not indicated any intention to ·2· · · ·oppose.· It's our understanding they are not opposed. ·3· ·Q· ·Right.· And it's also clear that this restrictive ·4· · · ·covenant indicates that residential use of the land is ·5· · · ·incompatible with the mining operation; correct? ·6· · · ·That's the gist of it? ·7· ·A· ·And you're referring to paragraph 9? ·8· ·Q· ·Paragraph 2 -- ·9· ·A· ·Yeah. 10· ·Q· ·-- paragraph 2(b):· (as read) 11· · · · · · ... not permit the rezoning of the golf 12· · · · · · course lands and shall not permit the use of 13· · · · · · any portion of the golf course lands for 14· · · · · · residential purposes, whether or not zoned 15· · · · · · for such purposes. 16· ·A· ·It -- yes, it would seem so. 17· ·Q· ·So all of your title -- all of the titles that we've 18· · · ·looked at covering the Grassy Mountain Road basically 19· · · ·contains that restrictive covenant.· Do I have that 20· · · ·right? 21· ·A· ·Mr. Chairman, do you mind if I take a few minutes to 22· · · ·consult with my colleagues and read this more 23· · · ·carefully? 24· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Sure.· Go ahead. 25· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·And, Mr. Secord, if I could 26· · · ·trouble you to repeat your question, please. ·1· · · · · · Can you hear me? ·2· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · Yes, I can hear you. ·3· ·A· ·Okay. ·4· ·Q· ·It's just so long ago, I've forgotten what it was, ·5· · · ·Mr. Houston. ·6· ·A· ·So -- ·7· ·Q· ·So, essentially, as I understand it, this restrictive ·8· · · ·covenant that was entered into in 2011 between Devon ·9· · · ·and Consol and the golf course essentially indicated 10· · · ·that they didn't want to see any -- essentially any 11· · · ·residential use of any of these lands? 12· ·A· ·So, Mr. Secord, I -- I'm not a lawyer, and -- and so 13· · · ·take this with all due respect, I guess.· My reading of 14· · · ·this restrictive covenant is that it -- it applies to 15· · · ·the golf course lands -- the golf course lands which -- 16· · · ·which are well-described in -- in the restrictive 17· · · ·covenant.· And notwithstanding the fact that it's 18· · · ·registered on all of the parcels you mentioned, it 19· · · ·seems to me that the restrictive covenant is talking 20· · · ·about restrictions on the future development of the 21· · · ·golf course lands. 22· ·Q· ·Right.· And so, basically, the idea is, I'm assuming, 23· · · ·Devon and Consol thought, Gee, we have a mine coming 24· · · ·along; we don't want the golf course lands used for 25· · · ·residential purposes; correct? 26· ·A· ·I -- I have no idea what they thought.· I'm sorry. I ·1· · · ·can't answer that. ·2· ·Q· ·Well, you took -- you essentially acquired these lands ·3· · · ·from Devon; right?· And these restrictive covenants ·4· · · ·came with them, so when you -- when you acquired these ·5· · · ·lands, I take it you understood that the golf course ·6· · · ·was not going to be able to use the golf course lands ·7· · · ·for residential purposes?· I take it you understood ·8· · · ·that? ·9· ·A· ·Yes, that -- we understood what the restrictive 10· · · ·covenant says.· The intent of the draft or -- is, you 11· · · ·know, not something I can speak to, but we understand 12· · · ·what the words say. 13· ·Q· ·I mean, it's not too complicated, is it? 14· · · ·Paragraph 2(b)(ii):· (as read) 15· · · · · · The golf course shall not permit the use of 16· · · · · · all or any portion of the golf course lands 17· · · · · · for residential purposes. 18· · · ·That's pretty straightforward, isn't it? 19· ·A· ·Yeah. 20· ·Q· ·And I take it the reason for that is you don't want 21· · · ·land inside a mine permit area to be used for 22· · · ·residential purposes?· That's a pretty basic 23· · · ·proposition, isn't it? 24· ·A· ·Well, that -- that's the effect of the -- of the 25· · · ·restrictive covenant. 26· ·Q· ·Yeah.· And nevertheless, in this case, you have drawn a ·1· · · ·mine permit boundary which includes Fran Gilmar and ·2· · · ·Larry and Ed Donkersgoed and their family, both quarter ·3· · · ·sections used for residential purposes; correct? ·4· ·A· ·I -- I -- I'm not sure if I would call it "residential ·5· · · ·purposes".· I -- I -- I do understand that they spend ·6· · · ·some time each year on their land. ·7· ·Q· ·Is that not -- is that not a residential purpose, ·8· · · ·Mr. Houston? ·9· ·A· ·Yes.· If -- if you're willing to live with that 10· · · ·definition. 11· ·Q· ·Right.· And, in fact, Vern Emard and Norm and Connie 12· · · ·Watmough and Tyler Watmough, who you say are adjacent 13· · · ·to the mine site, they also use their property for 14· · · ·residential purposes as well; correct? 15· ·A· ·Again, I -- I would say they -- they reside -- or 16· · · ·they -- they stay on their properties for some times 17· · · ·during the year, and -- and, again, if -- if you're 18· · · ·okay with that definition, then -- then I can agree 19· · · ·with your statement. 20· ·Q· ·And they have power and propane and water from springs 21· · · ·that provides them with drinking water.· Are you 22· · · ·familiar with that, those circumstances? 23· ·A· ·I understand there's -- I understand there's power to 24· · · ·those properties, Mr. Secord.· I'm -- I'm not sure what 25· · · ·other amenities -- 26· ·Q· ·Yeah. ·1· ·A· ·-- are on those lands. ·2· ·Q· ·Yeah.· Are you aware that the water pressure from the ·3· · · ·springs is such that -- for instance, with -- with Vern ·4· · · ·Emard's property, he actually has water pressure inside ·5· · · ·his residence from those springs? ·6· ·A· ·I -- I -- I'm not a -- I'm not aware of the water ·7· · · ·pressure on Vern Emard's property. ·8· ·Q· ·Okay. ·9· · · ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · Mr. Chairman, it's 10· · · ·Mr. Ignasiak here.· Before we go any further, I just 11· · · ·want to interject because I'm concerned Mr. Secord has 12· · · ·seriously misrepresented this restrictive covenant. 13· · · · · · Clause 3 defines the golf course lands, which is 14· · · ·what the restrictive covenant applies to.· The sections 15· · · ·he referred to, those are not -- that -- that 16· · · ·Plan 0815531 is not a title that Mr. Secord has pulled 17· · · ·up.· So he's really misinterpreted it when he said this 18· · · ·covenant applies to the lands he brought Mr. Houston 19· · · ·to -- or Mr. Houston, sorry.· It actually applies to 20· · · ·the lands listed at Clause 3 and not to the other 21· · · ·titles it's registered against. 22· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Okay.· Well, I would disagree 23· · · ·with Mr. Ignasiak.· The restrictive covenant is 24· · · ·registered on all of the titles, so I don't accept -- 25· · · ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · Yes, but -- 26· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · -- I don't accept his legal ·1· · · ·interpretation as to -- but my point is, really -- the ·2· · · ·point, I think, has already been agreed to, even if it ·3· · · ·is only in relation to the golf course lands.· If that ·4· · · ·is all the restrictive covenant applies to, I'm quite ·5· · · ·content to have Mr. Houston's evidence as it is. ·6· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·So let's be clear, then, ·7· · · ·Mr. Secord.· What my evidence is, is that this ·8· · · ·restrictive covenant appears to restrict residential ·9· · · ·development on the golf course lands. 10· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · Yes.· That's -- 11· ·A· ·I understand it's -- it's registered against the other 12· · · ·titles that you led us up the road on, but -- but 13· · · ·clearly in the language, the -- the restrictions apply 14· · · ·only to the golf course lands. 15· ·Q· ·Correct.· I'm content with that. 16· · · · · · Now, if we could turn to your October 2020 reply 17· · · ·evidence, CIAR 571, PDF 9, Item 3.1.4. 18· ·A· ·Yes. 19· ·Q· ·And the heading is "3.1.4, Grassy Mountain Road Signage 20· · · ·and Communication":· (as read) 21· · · · · · The GMR was not built for the purpose of 22· · · · · · facilitating access to the adjacent lands. 23· · · · · · The GMR is Benga's privately owned road, and 24· · · · · · Benga has simply granted temporary permission 25· · · · · · to the adjacent landowners to not use the GMR 26· · · · · · while it is safe to do so [sic].· If the ·1· · · · · · project proceeds, it will no longer be safe ·2· · · · · · to allow the public to have access through ·3· · · · · · the active construction site or operating ·4· · · · · · mine. ·5· · · ·Can you tell us, when was the Grassy Mountain Road ·6· · · ·built? ·7· ·A· ·One minute, Mr. Chair. ·8· · · · · · So, Mr. Chairman, the Grassy Mountain Road, in one ·9· · · ·configuration or another, has probably been in place 10· · · ·for 40 or 50 years, probably used for some of the 11· · · ·legacy mining on the site. 12· ·Q· ·And if we turn to Aid to Cross AQ6.· That is the 13· · · ·Northstar map. 14· ·A· ·Yes. 15· ·Q· ·Does this document depict the Grassy Mountain Road as 16· · · ·it runs from, essentially, Blairmore through 17· · · ·Sections 2, 11, 14, 23, 24, and 25? 18· ·A· ·It -- it appears to, Mr. Chairman. 19· ·Q· ·And then you'll notice in the middle of the -- in 20· · · ·Section 14, it refers to a public works plan? 21· ·A· ·Yes. 22· ·Q· ·Do you know what that relates to? 23· ·A· ·I believe Mr. Bradley talked about a -- a project to 24· · · ·move coal from adjacent to the Crowsnest River and 25· · · ·store it further away from a water body, and I believe 26· · · ·that is the location of where the coal was stored, and ·1· · · ·eventually that land was reclaimed. ·2· ·Q· ·Do you know if it has anything to do with the ·3· · · ·construction of the Crowsnest Hospital? ·4· ·A· ·Not to my knowledge, Mr. Chair. ·5· ·Q· ·Okay. ·6· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Could we mark that as ·7· · · ·CIAR 755? ·8· · · ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · Sir, it's Mr. Ignasiak.· I'm ·9· · · ·fine with the certificate of titles from the registry 10· · · ·being marked.· I'm fine with the annotated map where 11· · · ·Mr. -- which was a Benga figure and then Mr. Houston 12· · · ·confirmed he agreed with the annotations.· But I think 13· · · ·it's inappropriate to mark this an exhibit, as it's -- 14· · · ·we have no idea what this is, where it came from, 15· · · ·and -- or anything.· I mean, no one's spoken to it. 16· · · ·Mr. Houston did not see it until it was provided as an 17· · · ·aid to cross.· So I don't think it can properly be 18· · · ·marked as an exhibit. 19· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Okay.· Well, I'm not sure that 20· · · ·it's critical, but I -- I will note that it refers to a 21· · · ·road plan, 8811754, in Section 11. 22· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · Do you see that, Mr. Houston; 23· · · ·that's in the southwest quarter of 11? 24· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·Yes, I see that. 25· ·Q· ·So if we could turn up the Aid to Cross AQ12, which is 26· · · ·Road Plan 8811754. ·1· ·A· ·Yes. ·2· ·Q· ·And would you agree with me that in the top right-hand ·3· · · ·corner of this road plan -- ·4· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Just a minute, Mr. Secord.· We ·5· · · ·don't have it up on the screen, so ... ·6· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Okay.· There we go. ·7· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · It's fairly small, obviously, ·8· · · ·Mr. Houston, but would you agree with me, subject to ·9· · · ·check, that in the top right-hand corner of this 10· · · ·document, it indicates that this road plan was 11· · · ·registered at the Land Titles Office for the South 12· · · ·Alberta Land Registration District at Calgary on 13· · · ·December 19, 1988? 14· ·A· ·Yes, I can see that. 15· ·Q· ·Okay.· And does this road plan essentially cover the 16· · · ·Grassy Mountain Road as it runs through Sections 2, 11, 17· · · ·and 14? 18· ·A· ·Yes, it does. 19· ·Q· ·Okay. 20· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · And could we then mark that as 21· · · ·CIAR 756? 22· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. Ignasiak, any concerns? 23· · · ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · The registered document, sir, 24· · · ·I'm fine with it being filed as an exhibit. 25· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. 26· · · · · · And staff just confirm the number. ·1· · · ·MS. UTTING:· · · · · · · To confirm, Mr. Chair, that ·2· · · ·would be 755, as we did not register the last aid to ·3· · · ·cross. ·4· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Thank you. ·5· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. ·6· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Thank you. ·7· · · · · · EXHIBIT CIAR 755 - AQ12 - COALITION - AID TO ·8· · · · · · CROSS_ROAD PLAN_8811754 ·9· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · So I take it, then, you 10· · · ·indicated that the Grassy Mountain Road has been 11· · · ·operation -- has been in operation for decades.· Would 12· · · ·that be fair? 13· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·Yes. 14· ·Q· ·Would you agree that the Grassy Mountain Road has been 15· · · ·used by the community residents and other users of 16· · · ·Grassy Mountain since that road was created? 17· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·Mr. Chairman, I could say that 18· · · ·we -- when Benga purchased the land and the Grassy 19· · · ·Mountain Road in 2013, from that point on, we -- we 20· · · ·took efforts to post signs -- many signs on the road, 21· · · ·indicating that it was a private road, private 22· · · ·property.· We are aware that -- notwithstanding those 23· · · ·signs, that community members may have used the road, 24· · · ·but not -- but -- but it was clear that it was a 25· · · ·private road. 26· ·Q· ·So I'm not sure that you were focused on my questions. ·1· · · ·We are going to get to your signs in due course, but ·2· · · ·my -- my general proposition was:· Would you agree that ·3· · · ·the use of Grassy Mountain Road continued over the ·4· · · ·decades, even though the lands on which the road ·5· · · ·passed -- you know, changed hands from time to time? ·6· ·A· ·Yes. ·7· ·Q· ·And I take it you agree that the adjacent landowners ·8· · · ·have been using the Grassy Mountain Road to access ·9· · · ·their property -- properties, in some case, for -- in 10· · · ·some cases, for 30 years.· Would that be fair? 11· ·A· ·I -- I couldn't speak to number of years that they've 12· · · ·been using it, but we are aware that they have been 13· · · ·using it.· In fact, Mr. Chairman, we have put a gate on 14· · · ·the road as of last summer, and we've taken -- taken 15· · · ·care to make sure that the adjacent landowners were 16· · · ·given keys to that gate so that they could continue to 17· · · ·use it while it's still safe to do so. 18· ·Q· ·And do you agree that these adjacent landowners have 19· · · ·been using the Grassy Mountain Road to connect to the 20· · · ·easement roads on their properties, in particular the 21· · · ·easement that is currently registered on title to the 22· · · ·Benga property in the northeast of 24? 23· ·A· ·So I -- I -- I can agree, Mr. Chairman, that the -- the 24· · · ·adjacent landowners have been using the Grassy Mountain 25· · · ·Road and -- and other roads on Benga private land to 26· · · ·access their properties. ·1· ·Q· ·Well, there is only -- there is only the Grassy ·2· · · ·Mountain Road.· There aren't other roads to get to the ·3· · · ·easement lands in the northeast quarter of 24, are ·4· · · ·there? ·5· ·A· ·To the easement lands in the northeast quarter of 24 -- ·6· · · ·I ... ·7· ·Q· ·We looked at that earlier, Mr. Houston. ·8· ·A· ·Yeah.· So -- ·9· ·Q· ·Are you not -- 10· ·A· ·-- the Grassy Mountain Road -- 11· ·Q· ·Are you not familiar with the easement property in the 12· · · ·Benga property in the northeast quarter of 24 in favour 13· · · ·of my clients? 14· ·A· ·One minute, Mr. Chairman. 15· · · · · · Mr. Secord, I'm going to ask you to test your 16· · · ·memory again and -- and ask the question over. 17· ·Q· ·Are you not aware that there is an easement in favour 18· · · ·of my clients on the northeast quarter of 24, which is 19· · · ·currently owned by Benga Mining? 20· ·A· ·I'll have to -- I'll have to get back to that one, 21· · · ·Mr. Chairman.· I -- I need to check the paperwork to -- 22· · · ·to be clear on which easement is in favour of -- of 23· · · ·whom and for what purpose -- 24· · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· · · I'm sorry, sir.· "Easement is 25· · · ·in favour" of what? 26· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·Of -- of whom. ·1· · · · · · So we'll have to get back to you on that, ·2· · · ·Mr. Secord. ·3· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · Okay.· Is that an undertaking, ·4· · · ·then, Mr. Houston? ·5· ·A· ·Yes.· We'll -- we'll get back to you on that ·6· ·Q· ·Is there somebody that you're conferring with in ·7· · · ·your -- in the room that you're sitting in? ·8· ·A· ·Mr. Bott.· Sorry.· He moved off camera to get some ·9· · · ·papers.· Mr. Bott, who is a sworn-in member of the 10· · · ·Panel. 11· ·Q· ·Okay.· So you and Mr. Bott are together? 12· ·A· ·Yes. 13· ·Q· ·In the same room? 14· ·A· ·Yes. 15· ·Q· ·Okay.· I was just wondering who you were talking to; 16· · · ·that's all.· No problem with that. 17· ·A· ·This is new to all of us, Mr. Secord. 18· ·Q· ·Yeah.· Let's just say this is not the easiest, but -- 19· · · ·process, but we're all trying the best we can. 20· · · · · · Is Benga aware that Vern Emard, with the 21· · · ·assistance of the adjacent landowners, has been 22· · · ·maintaining and improving the Grassy Mountain Road 23· · · ·since 1993, until Benga claimed ownership of it? 24· ·A· ·Mr. Chairman, we're -- we're aware that from time to 25· · · ·time, Mr. Emard may have cleared snow, for example, off 26· · · ·the road in the winter. ·1· ·Q· ·Is Benga aware that Vern Emard and the adjacent ·2· · · ·landowners have been maintaining the Grassy Mountain ·3· · · ·Road at their own personal cost and time? ·4· ·A· ·Mr. Chairman, since Benga has taken possession of the ·5· · · ·land, we're -- we're not aware of that. ·6· ·Q· ·Are you or Benga aware that the maintenance of the ·7· · · ·Grassy Mountain Road by Vern Emard and others continued ·8· · · ·while Devon and previous owners of the lands hosting ·9· · · ·the Grassy Mountain Road retained title to the lands? 10· ·A· ·Again, Mr. Chairman, we're aware that from time to 11· · · ·time, snow may have been cleared from the road, but 12· · · ·we're not aware of -- of maintenance efforts outside of 13· · · ·snow clearing. 14· ·Q· ·Now, I just want to touch briefly on -- on the Kootenay 15· · · ·Wood Preservers and developer. 16· · · · · · Do you agree that the Grassy Mountain Road was in 17· · · ·existence and in use by the community at the time 18· · · ·Kootenay Wood Preservers -- and I'll refer to them as 19· · · ·"Kootenay" -- developed the adjacent lands and created 20· · · ·easements over the adjacent lands? 21· · · · · · Do you have any information as to that piece of 22· · · ·history? 23· ·A· ·So I believe the Grassy Mountain Road in some 24· · · ·configuration would have been in existence when -- when 25· · · ·Kootenay owned the lands. 26· ·Q· ·And if we could turn up the Coalition submission ·1· · · ·CIAR 553, PDF 409. ·2· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. Secord, just while we're ·3· · · ·waiting for that to come up.· Just looking at the time. ·4· · · ·It's 4:36.· I don't want to interrupt your kind of line ·5· · · ·of cross, but you can start thinking about where a ·6· · · ·natural break would be and, you know, anytime in the ·7· · · ·next half hour or so would be good, if that works for ·8· · · ·you. ·9· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · That would be fine.· Would it 10· · · ·be permissible if I went to 5:00? 11· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Sure.· Yeah. 12· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · And I should mention for the 13· · · ·purpose of scheduling, we did have a -- between 14· · · ·counsel, an email earlier, and I think that Mr. Sawyer 15· · · ·had been permitted two hours of cross-examination time 16· · · ·for this Panel, and he's told us he only needs 17· · · ·15 minutes.· So you might -- so there may be some time 18· · · ·coming off of the schedule that was previously 19· · · ·allocated. 20· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay. 21· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · So just as a heads-up on that. 22· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you, Mr. Secord. 23· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · Okay.· So 409 essentially is a 24· · · ·blank page.· Not very useful. 25· · · · · · PDF 410 shows the agreement between Kootenay Wood 26· · · ·Preservers Ltd. as the second part, but the page that I ·1· · · ·was really interested in -- scroll down to that -- was ·2· · · ·on page 409, and maybe that'll refresh your memory, ·3· · · ·Mr. Houston.· I don't intend to spend much time with ·4· · · ·this document that's on the record for -- to be read. ·5· · · · · · But you'll notice that in this -- in this sketch, ·6· · · ·you have Section 24, the northeast quarter of 24. ·7· · · ·That's called "servient only".· Do you see that? ·8· ·A· ·Yes. ·9· · · ·Response to Undertaking by Benga Mining Limited 10· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·And -- and you have refreshed 11· · · ·my memory, Mr. Secord.· And you're correct.· There is 12· · · ·a -- there is an easement on the northeast of 24 in 13· · · ·favour of the other parcels as -- as is shown in this 14· · · ·sketch. 15· ·Q· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · Right.· So in the -- 16· ·A· ·So I -- I take it that that fulfills our commitment to 17· · · ·get back to you on that other question? 18· ·Q· ·The fastest undertaking response ever. 19· · · · · · So, yes, it's CIAR 753.· We looked at the title 20· · · ·for the northeast of 24 in the name of Benga.· So the 21· · · ·easement, then, is on the Benga title providing access 22· · · ·to the adjacent landowners in Sections 19 and 30, as 23· · · ·well as 31; correct? 24· ·A· ·It -- it is a servient easement to those other pieces 25· · · ·of land, yes. 26· ·Q· ·And does -- I take it, Mr. Houston, then, you ·1· · · ·understand that my clients have the right to access the ·2· · · ·surface of the northeast of 24 along the GMR, the ·3· · · ·Grassy Mountain Road? ·4· ·A· ·As far as I understand, Mr. Secord, the easement on the ·5· · · ·northeast of 24 only talks about the northeast of 24. ·6· ·Q· ·Right.· But in terms of the right to use the surface of ·7· · · ·the land, you would agree with me that my clients have ·8· · · ·the right to use the surface of the land in the ·9· · · ·northeast of 24. 10· · · · · · Do you agree with that proposition? 11· ·A· ·Mr. Chair, I would agree that there is an easement on 12· · · ·the northeast of 24 that allows for transit by the 13· · · ·other landowners across the land. 14· ·Q· ·All right. 15· · · · · · So if we could turn to CIAR 571, Benga's reply 16· · · ·evidence, PDF 9.· Benga asserts that it installed 17· · · ·signage at various locations along the GMR from the 18· · · ·time it first acquired its lands.· You recall that -- 19· · · ·writing that, Mr. Houston? 20· ·A· ·Yes. 21· ·Q· ·Can you confirm that Benga acquired the lands from 22· · · ·Devon Canada Ltd.? 23· ·A· ·Yes. 24· ·Q· ·And prior to completing the acquisition of those lands, 25· · · ·did Benga inquire as to the use of the Grassy Mountain 26· · · ·Road by the community, especially the adjacent ·1· · · ·landowners, Ed and Larry Donkersgoed, Norm Watmough, ·2· · · ·Vern Emard, and Fran Gilmar? ·3· ·A· ·Sir, I was not personally involved.· That transaction ·4· · · ·occurred in 2013.· However, I -- I would assume that ·5· · · ·there was a level of due diligence before the land was ·6· · · ·purchased. ·7· ·Q· ·So is anybody on -- was anybody -- is -- anybody on ·8· · · ·this panel, were they involved in the acquisition of ·9· · · ·the lands from Devon? 10· ·A· ·Nobody on this panel.· Mr. Chair, nobody on this panel 11· · · ·was involved in that transaction. 12· ·Q· ·Okay.· And so when you say, Mr. Houston, you assume 13· · · ·there was due diligence, you, I take it, are just 14· · · ·guessing?· You don't know for sure? 15· ·A· ·No.· Exactly.· I -- I would just assume that a company 16· · · ·would be duly diligent before entering into a land 17· · · ·transaction of -- of that magnitude. 18· ·Q· ·So do you know if the issue of providing access to 19· · · ·adjoining landowners' properties was discussed after 20· · · ·the completion of the acquisition process between Benga 21· · · ·and Devon? 22· ·A· ·I'm not aware of any discussions, Mr. Chairman. 23· ·Q· ·If we could refer to AQ3, which is an April 22, 2015, 24· · · ·letter from Devon Canada to Benga. 25· ·A· ·AQ3.· What is the title of this one? 26· ·Q· ·It should be April 22, 2015. ·1· ·A· ·I'd just like to pull it up on my screen enlarged so ·2· · · ·that I can read it. ·3· ·Q· ·You and me both. ·4· ·A· ·Yeah. ·5· ·Q· ·I don't actually even see the -- I have the -- the ·6· · · ·attachment here as well magnified to about -- ·7· ·A· ·Oh, I found it.· I found it. ·8· · · · · · So -- so you -- ·9· ·Q· ·All right. 10· ·A· ·-- say it's a letter from Devon Canada to Riversdale? 11· ·Q· ·Yes.· So this is an April 22, 2015, letter from 12· · · ·Don Snowdon, Devon Canada? 13· ·A· ·So I'm a little confused, Mr. Secord.· It says 14· · · ·Don Snowdon, formerly representative of Devon Canada. 15· ·Q· ·Right. 16· ·A· ·I also don't see any letterhead on this letter.· Was 17· · · ·Devon writing on blank, white paper at the time? 18· ·Q· ·Well, I don't -- I don't know.· I was provided this 19· · · ·letter.· I assumed that this letter had been provided 20· · · ·to Benga Mining by Mr. Snowdon.· I may be wrong, so ... 21· ·A· ·So this is the first I've seen this letter.· When you 22· · · ·gave it to our counsel yesterday, I made some 23· · · ·inquiries.· I can't find anybody in -- in Benga who has 24· · · ·seen this letter before. 25· · · · · · And, in fact, Mr. -- Mr. Chair, when I see a 26· · · ·letter that's got somebody's private address, formerly ·1· · · ·representative of Devon Canada, I really question ·2· · · ·the -- the -- you know, whether this did, in fact, come ·3· · · ·from Devon Canada or if it -- if it is somehow from an ·4· · · ·ex-employee of Devon Canada. ·5· ·Q· ·Okay.· Well, I -- it's signed Devon Canada Limited, ·6· · · ·representative senior surface landman.· That's how he ·7· · · ·signs his name at the bottom.· I -- ·8· ·A· ·Mr. Secord, you see the former -- formerly ·9· · · ·representative. 10· ·Q· ·I see that at the top, "formerly", and then at the 11· · · ·bottom he signs it representative. 12· · · · · · So let's -- let's leave, then -- let's leave it 13· · · ·like this, then:· You received a copy of this letter, 14· · · ·and you've been unable to determine whether this letter 15· · · ·was ever provided to Riversdale Resources and Benga 16· · · ·Mining?· That's fair; right?· You have not been able to 17· · · ·turn up a copy of this correspondence?· Is that -- do I 18· · · ·have you correctly there?· That's your evidence so far? 19· · · ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · · ·Mr. Chairman, can you hear us 20· · · ·now? 21· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Yes, I can. 22· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Can you hear me, Mr. Houston? 23· ·A· ·MR. HOUSTON:· · · · · ·Yes, I can, Mr. Secord. 24· · · · · · Mr. Chairman, I don't know why this -- this 25· · · ·happened yesterday as well.· Our telephone seems to 26· · · ·hang up at 4:48 in the afternoon.· I can't explain it. ·1· · · ·In any case, we're back online. ·2· · · · · · So, Mr. Secord, I -- I was asking if you agree ·3· · · ·with me that it's a little strange to have the words ·4· · · ·"formerly representative of Devon Canada" up in the top ·5· · · ·left -- right-hand corner and then the letter ·6· · · ·apparently coming from Devon Canada in -- in the ·7· · · ·bottom.· It seems that there's something a little ·8· · · ·strange about this.· And then on top of that, it's -- ·9· · · ·it's not got a Devon logo or address on it.· So I'm 10· · · ·just not sure what to make of this letter. 11· ·Q· ·Okay.· And I just wanted to confirm you have made 12· · · ·inquiries, and you don't believe that -- at least so 13· · · ·far you haven't been able to turn up a copy of this 14· · · ·letter? 15· ·A· ·That is correct. 16· ·Q· ·But I take it that -- at least I'm assuming in the 17· · · ·course of your public consultation with the 18· · · ·Donkersgoeds and Ms. -- and Ms. Gilmar, inside the mine 19· · · ·permit boundary, and Vern Emard and the Watmoughs, who 20· · · ·are just adjacent to the mine permit boundary, you -- I 21· · · ·take it your people would have had some discussions 22· · · ·with them about their road-use agreements that they 23· · · ·had -- that they had previously with Devon?· I take it 24· · · ·that must not be news to you, that they have road-use 25· · · ·agreements, or is that something that you were also 26· · · ·unaware of? ·1· ·A· ·Mr. Chair, this is a document between Devon and the ·2· · · ·Pagonis family.· We -- Benga has since purchased the ·3· · · ·Pagonis properties, and so -- and we purchased the ·4· · · ·Devon land, so this road-use agreement that Mr. Secord ·5· · · ·has in front of us at the moment seems to be an ·6· · · ·agreement between Benga and Benga to use a road that ·7· · · ·Benga owns.· So I'm not quite sure where you're going ·8· · · ·here, Mr. Secord. ·9· ·Q· ·Well, I take it you're also aware that the Donkersgoeds 10· · · ·had a road-use agreement with Devon when they acquired 11· · · ·their property 15 years ago?· You've seen those -- 12· · · ·you've seen those documents as well; correct? 13· ·A· ·Mr. Chairman, we received that document from Mr. Secord 14· · · ·yesterday as an aid to cross.· Mr. Secord, if you want 15· · · ·to talk about that document, perhaps you should bring 16· · · ·it up. 17· ·Q· ·Well, what I'm bringing up right now, Mr. Houston, is 18· · · ·in your public consultation efforts with my clients 19· · · ·inside the mine permit boundary and right next to the 20· · · ·mine permit boundary, did any of your landmen ever have 21· · · ·any discussions with any of these landowners about the 22· · · ·fact that they had road-use agreements with Devon 23· · · ·Canada?· That's all.· Very simple -- short, simple 24· · · ·question. 25· ·A· ·Mr. Chairman, I will say we -- we were aware of this 26· · · ·agreement with the Pagonis.· We acquired that land, and ·1· · · ·we were aware at that time that there was a road-use ·2· · · ·agreement with the Pagonis family and Devon. ·3· · · · · · We have had extensive discussions with ·4· · · ·Mr. Secord's clients, and we understand that road ·5· · · ·access is an issue that they're concerned about, but ·6· · · ·we, until yesterday, had not seen another document ·7· · · ·between Devon and one of Mr. Secord's clients talking ·8· · · ·about road use.· So over -- over four or five years of ·9· · · ·discussions with the -- with Mr. Secord's clients, to 10· · · ·our knowledge, a copy of a road-use agreement has not 11· · · ·been provided. 12· ·Q· ·So you're -- you're saying that in over the four -- 13· · · ·four or five years that you have been engaged in public 14· · · ·consultation -- and obviously my clients will discuss 15· · · ·the contact that they had with your people -- you're 16· · · ·saying you didn't know until yesterday that 17· · · ·Mr. Donkersgoed had a road-use agreement with Devon? 18· ·A· ·That's correct, Mr. Chair. 19· · · ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Okay.· Mr. Chair, this 20· · · ·probably would be a good time to adjourn for the day. 21· · · ·Discussion 22· · · ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· One thing I'd like to 23· · · ·just discuss with you and Mr. Ignasiak before we do 24· · · ·relates to the aids to cross. 25· · · · · · So in previous Joint Review Panel proceedings, we 26· · · ·have tended to mark aids to cross just for ·1· ·identification purposes, not as evidence.· But just so ·2· ·that when we're looking at the record, if there's a ·3· ·discussion around a particular document, we can have ·4· ·regard for that document. ·5· · · · And so I note that that previous map that you used ·6· ·as an aid to cross Mr. Ignasiak was concerned about ·7· ·entering as an exhibit wasn't marked, and we haven't ·8· ·talked about marking this one. ·9· · · · So kind of before proceeding, I'd like to hear 10· ·from both you and Mr. Ignasiak on whether marking these 11· ·just for identification purposes would be appropriate. 12· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Yeah, I think -- I think 13· ·probably marking them for identification purposes would 14· ·be appropriate.· I don't think that this letter, for 15· ·instance, signed by Mr. Snowdon could be marked as an 16· ·exhibit, but perhaps as an exhibit for identification, 17· ·I think that would be logical.· Subject to what my 18· ·friend Mr. Ignasiak has to say, of course. 19· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Mr. Ignasiak? 20· ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · Yes, sir.· So I agree.· So the 21· ·Northland [sic] map which we know nothing about 22· ·shouldn't be marked as an exhibit, but it can be marked 23· ·for identification purposes.· The same with this letter 24· ·from Mr. Snowdon, who I presume is a different Snowden 25· ·than the famous one, but -- so it should be -- it can 26· ·be marked for identification. ·1· · · · When Mr. Secord's panel takes the stand, to the ·2· ·extent they -- they identify the document properly and ·3· ·give us the circumstances around it, or maybe it can be ·4· ·marked as an exhibit at that point.· If it can't be ·5· ·marked as an exhibit at that point, then it's -- ·6· ·remains for identification, and it's not an exhibit and ·7· ·can't be taken into account as an evidentiary document, ·8· ·is my understanding of how identification documents ·9· ·work. 10· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Yeah.· I think I agree to -- 11· ·you would agree to that, Mr. Secord? 12· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Yeah, that's been my 13· ·experience, yes. 14· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· So can we mark -- the 15· ·most recent one I think was AQ3.· I can't remember the 16· ·number of the previous one.· Do you have -- 17· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · AQ6 was the other one. 18· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· So AQ6 was the 19· ·Northland map? 20· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Northstar. 21· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Northstar, sorry. 22· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · Northstar. 23· ·MR. IGNASIAK:· · · · · · Mr. Chair, my understanding is 24· ·the -- sorry, I don't have the names in front of me. 25· ·But my understanding is Ms. Utting, I think, is marking 26· ·these for identification as she receives them, and ·1· ·she's doing that with all of the documents being ·2· ·provided as aids to cross.· So I think they're already ·3· ·marked for identification purposes. ·4· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Is that the case, ·5· ·Ms. Utting? ·6· ·MS. UTTING:· · · · · · · I confirm that is the case, ·7· ·Mr. Chair.· We are receiving documents without numbers ·8· ·on them, and the most straightforward way was to label ·9· ·them as aids to cross. 10· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay. 11· ·MS. UTTING:· · · · · · · As per the detailed electronic 12· ·hearing procedures. 13· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· So they already have 14· ·numbers assigned? 15· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · So for the court reporter, 16· ·then, the Northstar document would be -- if she was 17· ·listing them at the back would be AQ6, and the Devon 18· ·Canada letter of April 22, that would be AQ3, for 19· ·identification. 20· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Does that provide what we 21· ·need, Ms. Utting? 22· ·MS. UTTING:· · · · · · · Yes, Mr. Chair, I believe it 23· ·does.· Thank you. 24· · · · EXHIBIT FOR IDENTIFICATION AQ6 - COALITION - 25· · · · AID TO CROSS_NORTHSTAR MAP 26· · · · EXHIBIT FOR IDENTIFICATION AQ3 - COALITION - ·1· · · · AID TO CROSS_APRIL 22, 2015 DEVON CANADA LT ·2· · · · RIVERSDALE ·3· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you. ·4· · · · Okay.· So, yes, thank you, Mr. Secord. ·5· · · · So we will resume tomorrow morning at 9:00 with ·6· ·the continuation of the cross by the Coalition. ·7· ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · Mr. Chairman, Mike Sawyer ·8· ·here. ·9· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Yeah.· Go ahead, Mr. Sawyer. 10· ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · I'm up next, and I wonder if 11· ·you could give some guidance with maybe some info from 12· ·Mr. Secord in terms of how long he expects to be in the 13· ·morning. 14· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · We expect to use our full 15· ·allocation, so ... 16· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·That's -- 17· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · And it's -- you know, it's 18· ·also, you know, difficult with this process in the 19· ·sense of, you know, manipulating the documents, so we 20· ·don't get the same sort of questions per hour that we 21· ·would normally get, so -- but we'll do our best to be 22· ·done in the time allocation that we have.· But I would 23· ·think we would be, you know, another two and a half 24· ·hours in the morning.· I'm not sure how much time I've 25· ·taken up, but we had four and a half hours, and we'll 26· ·certainly use all of it. ·1· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· And just to clarify, ·2· ·Mr. Sawyer, on the schedule I have, I have Coalition ·3· ·first, then CPAWS, then Timberwolf.· Do you have a ·4· ·different schedule? ·5· ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · I may stand corrected, but ·6· ·that -- regardless, that gives me a sense of how ·7· ·tomorrow will unfold. ·8· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay. ·9· ·MR. SAWYER:· · · · · · · Thank you. 10· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Any other last items 11· ·before we depart? 12· ·MR. SECORD:· · · · · · · No.· Thank you. 13· ·THE CHAIR:· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Thank you, everyone. 14· ·Have a good evening, and we'll see you tomorrow. 15· ·______16· ·PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL 9:00 AM, OCTOBER 30, 2020 17· ·______18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 ·1· ·CERTIFICATE OF TRANSCRIPT: ·2 ·3· · · · I, Angela Porco, certify that the foregoing pages ·4· ·are a complete and accurate transcript of the ·5· ·proceedings, taken down by me in shorthand and ·6· ·transcribed from my shorthand notes to the best of my ·7· ·skill and ability. ·8· · · · Dated at the City of Calgary, Province of Alberta, ·9· ·this 29th day of October 2020. 10

11 12 13· ·______- 14· ·Angela Porco, CSR(A) 15· ·Official Court Reporter 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26