RURAL DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE

Tuesday 13 March 2001 (Afternoon)

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 13 March 2001

Col.

FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE ...... 1739

RURAL DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE 7th Meeting 2001, Session 1

CONVENER *Alex Johnstone (North-East Scotland) (Con)

DEPU TY CONVENER *Fergus Ewing (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)

COMMI TTEE MEMBERS *Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP) *Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con) *Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab) *Cathy Jamieson (Carric k, Cumnoc k and Doon Valley) (Lab) *Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) (SNP) *Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow ) (Lab) *Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab) *Mr Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD) *Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD) *attended

THE FOLLOWING ALSO ATTENDED : Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con) Dav id Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con) Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD) John Scott (Ayr) (Con) Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab)

WITNESSES Professor Ian Aitken (Edinburgh Centre for Rural Research) Phil Flanders (Road Haulage Association) Robert Forster (Scottish Beef Council) Patric ia Glancey (Road Haulage Association) Mr Alastair Greig (Edinburgh Centre for Rural Research) Eddie Harper (Road Haulage Association) John Kinnaird (National Farmers Union of Scotland) Professor Joe Mayhew (Edinburgh Centre for Rural Research) Keith Redpath (Scottish Beef Council) Dr Mike Sharp (Edinburgh Centre for Rural Research) Mike Talbot (Edinburgh Centre for Rural Research) Professor Mark Woolhouse (Edinburgh Centre for Rural Research)

CLERK TO THE COMMITTE E Richard Davies

SENIOR ASSISTANT CLERK Tracey Haw e

ASSISTANT CLERK Jake Thomas

LOC ATION The Chamber

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Scottish Parliament presentation and to introduce his colleagues, after which members will ask questions. Rural Development Committee Professor Ian Aitken (Edinburgh Centre for Rural Research): I suggest, convener, that I give a brief introduction, rather than Mark Woolhouse. Tuesday 13 March 2001 I am the scientific director of the Edinburgh (Afternoon) centre for rural research, which is a consortium of research institutes that have interests in rural [THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 14:37] aspects of Scotland and further afield. Our interests range from agriculture through to the Royal Zoological Society of Scotland. Both agriculture and the Royal Zoological Society are Foot-and-mouth Disease directly affected by the current outbreak of foot- and-mouth disease. The Convener (Alex Johnstone): Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this meeting of the Rural Members of some of the Edinburgh centre for Development Committee. The meeting was rural research’s constituent organisations—who originally planned as an informal meeting. At the are knowledgeable about the disease—will end of last week, however, it was changed to a respond to questions and provide answers that formal committee meeting, so that the press and might be helpful to members. To set the scene, it other interested parties could have free access will be useful if my colleagues introduce and to ensure that other members of the Scottish themselves and briefly state their interests and Parliament who wanted to ask questions could do expertise. so. John Scott, David Mundell and Nora Radcliffe Professor Mark Woolhouse (Edinburgh are with us; I welcome them to the committee and Centre for Rural Research): I am professor of assure them that, if they want to get involved, I will veterinary epidemiology at the University of be delighted to allow them to join in the Edinburgh. I have, for eight years, been questioning. researching foot-and-mouth disease in The purpose of today’s meeting is to hear from collaboration with the Institute for Animal Health. the Edinburgh centre for rural research, which Dr Alastair Greig (Edinburgh Centre for Rural offered to make a presentation on the technical Research): I am from the Scottish Agricultural and biological aspects of foot-and-mouth disease College veterinary science division. I have an and its control. Subsequent to that offer, the interest in foot-and-mouth disease, because we Scottish Beef Council and the National Farmers have worked in diagnostic centres throughout the Union of Scotland asked to address the committee country and we might come across the disease at on the same matter. The Road Haulage any time. Association has been invited to attend because of concerns that were raised at the committee on 6 I spent a short time working on the 1967-68 March about the steps that hauliers are taking to outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease and I also prevent transmission of the disease. The meeting spent five years at the Institute for Animal Health has now been called on a formal basis, so at Pirbright, working on foot-and-mouth disease everything that we say will be reported in the and associated exotic diseases. Official Report. Profe ssor Joe Mayhew (Edinburgh Centre for The committee may wish to take up what it Rural Re search): I am professor of clinical learns today with Ross Finnie when he attends our studies at the veterinary school that is based at meeting next week. We shall take each Easterbush veterinary centre, where we have an organisation in turn and I shall invite witnesses to equine, farm animal and small animal hospital. give a brief introduction, before allowing members There is a dairy and sheep farm next door. My to ask questions. main involvement has been in taking precautions against the disease spreading to that area, Our first witnesses, from the Edinburgh centre including through students coming and going. for rural research, have said that they might wish to use an overhead projector. Copies of the slides Dr Mike Sharp (Edinburgh Centre for Rural can be found on the Parliament website among Research): I am from the Moredun Research the papers for this meeting. The Edinburgh centre Institute in Edinburgh. My interest, over many for rural research witnesses are a group of years, has been the pathogenesis and control of veterinary and scientific experts who have viral diseases of large and small ruminants. knowledge of foot-and-mouth disease. We share the nervousness of farmers in I ask Professor Mark Woolhouse to give a Scotland because all of our experiments and the entire enterprise at Moredun are at the same sort

1741 13 MARCH 2001 1742 of risk as farming enterprises. clothing? Can you give the committee a textbook description of the various ways in which the Mike Talbot (Edinburgh Centre for Rural disease can be transmitted, with emphasis on the Research): I am the secretary to the Edinburgh degree of risk that is associated with each different centre for rural research. means of transmission? Profe ssor Aitken: That gives the committee Dr Sharp: I might best answer that question by some background on the people who are gathered giving members a flavour of the complexity of the here. They have present and past experience of biology. The risk of transmission of the disease foot-and-mouth disease and are happy to respond may be regarded as a function of the amount of to questions. virus that is produced by the host. There are data Dr Elaine Murray (Dumfries) (Lab): I am the that show that pigs are especially good at MSP for Dumfries. generating the virus—much better than cattle or sheep—and therefore pose much a much greater One of the issues that the National Farmers risk than other species. Pigs are most at risk of Union of Scotland has raised with me is that it is creating aerosols. If pigs are taken out of the unclear about how long after the final case farmers equation, most of the transmission occurs through will be able to restock or use the land again. There the movement of animals and their introduction seems to be a lack of clarity about whether it will into new flocks or herds. Those are the main risks. be 30 days or 42 days and whether it is after the I am not sure whether I could quantify the risks last outbreak in that area or the last outbreak. Can and I do not know whether anybody has the you advise the committee on that? relevant data yet. Profe ssor Aitken: That is a very specific Fergus Ewing: A close friend of mine— question. My colleagues are shaking their heads. Professor Hugh Pirie of Glasgow University— Guidance on that would have to come from the notes that airborne transmission has been known Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, to have occurred over a considerable distance because it has statutory responsibility for over land, and over 40 miles or more over sea. determining when restrictions will be lifted. Can you give the committee any specific advice Fergus Ewing (Inverness Ea st, Nairn and about the upper limits of airborne transmission Lochaber) (SNP): Nick Brown, the Minister of over land and over sea? Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, stated on Dr Sharp: The significance of airborne television at the weekend that he was certain that transmission was not appreciated until the the foot-and-mouth outbreak has been brought outbreak in Cheshire, which came about because under control. This morning, I got a different of the plumes from affected farms that were picture from Jim Walker of the NFUS. Will you upwind of the milk tankers that were going from help the committee by defining what the phrase “to farm to farm. As it turned out, those tankers were bring under control foot-and-mouth disease” venting the virus into the atmosphere when they means, and when that can be said to have moved between farms. Tankers are now fitted with occurred? special filters, so that is no longer a risk. Many subsequent studies have been conducted. 14:45 The risk of airborne transmission depends on the Profe ssor Woolhouse: We cannot say what meteorological conditions, and transmissions over Nick Brown means when he says that a disease distances much greater than that on which Fergus has been brought under control. From an Ewing commented have been recorded— epidemiological perspective, the definition is clear: distances of almost 200 miles. it is when each outbreak leads on average to fewer than one new outbreak. If that is the case, Fergus Ewing: Were those transmissions over one can be sure that the trajectory of the epidemic land or sea, or does it not make a difference? is downward. At the moment, the data are only just Dr Sharp: I am not sure whether it would make coming in that will allow us to assess that a difference. trajectory. It is difficult to make an assessment at this stage. Mr Greig: In one case on the Isle of Wight, transmission occurred from 120 or 130 miles away Fergus Ewing: Can you describe the various in the north of France. That is a well recorded degrees of the risk of transmission of foot-and- case from recent times. mouth disease? We are told that avoidance of contact with livestock is paramount, which advice Mrs Margaret Ewing (Moray) (SNP): So far, we hope is being heeded. We also hear that the Republic of Ireland has managed to keep itself airborne transmission of the disease is possible. totally free of this horrendous disease. However, How likely is that? What about the other possible the British Government’s chief veterinary officer means of transmission, such as car tyres and admitted on Friday that he did not know how far

1743 13 MARCH 2001 1744 the foot-and-mouth epidemic will go or when the to move into areas of political determination, which incidence of reported cases will start to decline. I are outside the scientific brief that we carry. have before me an article from the Irish Sunday Nonetheless, I am sure that, as a matter of Independent, which states: general principle, the more suitable laboratories that are located in different parts of the country, “He spoke, too, of his fears of second and third w aves of infection and of how sheep w ho had recovered from the the better. However, in order to achieve that, there disease and w ho could not easily be identified as having must be resources available that will allow those been infected could still carry the virus for a further nine laboratories to continue and to function. Without weeks.” resources they will not be able to do so. However, Can any witness comment on that issue, political matters are not really our brief. particularly on the time scale of “a further nine David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): I weeks”? Would that relate to carcases or to live want to ask a couple of questions about carcases sheep? and incineration. Concerns have been expressed Mr Greig: The work that has been done on about the fact that, after the initial slaughter of the sheep shows that sheep that have recovered from animals, other creatures such as foxes and crows the natural disease can carry the infection for up to might be able to access the carcases. Am I right in nine weeks or, in some cases, for up to nine thinking that, once the animal is dead, the months, so there is a potential for infection. possibility of another creature transmitting the However, that must be balanced with the ability of virus is limited or non-existent? those sheep to infect other animals. In Denmark, Mr Greig: If you were watching television last scientists queried whether recovered carrier sheep night, you will have seen a film showing that, once had, in fact, instigate a new outbreak. Research the animal is killed, its head and feet—the main workers have been unable to demonstrate sources of the virus—are enclosed. Attempts are experimentally that recovered carrier animals can being made to damp down the amount of virus infect other animals in the same compound. that is available. Mrs Ewing: Would there be the same David Mundell: I do not think that that is the implication for carcases? Although I do not think answer to my question, is it? that it has been happening in Scotland, the disposal of carcases seems to be a problem in John Scott (Ayr) (Con): Can carrion animals— many areas. Indeed, I understand that the Ministry foxes, crows and gulls—take the virus from farm to of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has considered farm? calling in the army to help with disposal. Mr Greig: Potentially, yes—as can people. Mr Greig: The live animal is the important thing. John Scott: Even after the animal is dead and In a dead animal, the pH of the meat drops as the disinfected? carcase sets, and that kills the virus very quickly. It is a very infectious virus, but it is very labile when Profe ssor Aitken: No. Once the animal is pH is altered. In the meat itself, it is wiped out disinfected, the situation has been dealt with. fairly quickly. It is in the back of the throat, in the Dr Sharp: The main source of the virus is the pharynx, that the virus seems to be carried longest secretions that come from the m outh and nose in cattle and sheep. and which are found, to a lesser extent, in the Mr Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and milk. Does your question relate mainly to sheep or Ea ster Ross) (LD): In the introductory remarks, to cattle? we heard about the Scotland-wide array of David Mundell: It relates to both, because centres. I represent Caithness, Sutherland and animals have had to be slaughtered in significant Easter Ross. Mercifully, the disease has not numbers and there has been an inevitabl e delay. appeared in my area, but one has every sympathy In Dumfries and Galloway, we have been fortunate for those areas in which it has appeared. As yet, in that the length of time that the process takes is the Highlands are free of it. I hear where the much shorter than in some cases in the south. Scottish Agricultural College is coming from, but I Naturally, during that period, people are am not in agreement. Does the panel agree that a concerned about the possibility of further infection unit such as the Thurso vet lab would have at least from carcases. It is not possible to guard the a diagnostic role—which would be helpful in the carcases overnight or have modified scarecrows initial stages—if not an on-going role if, God forbid, or something similar. There is a genuine public the disease appeared? The maintenance of a concern about the disease being spread further by centre of veterinary excellence would surely be a predators and vermin. positive measure in attempting to diagnose and tackle foot-and-mouth disease. Dr Sharp: I am clearer now about what you are asking. As Alastair Greig said, there is a Profe ssor Aitken: I think that you are asking us theoretical risk of mechanical transmission but,

1745 13 MARCH 2001 1746 realistically, that would be likely to occur only vector in the transmission of the virus is as far as when there were frank excretions or secretions anybody can go. oozing from the head of the animal. That would Professor Woolhouse: Cathy Jamieson is right happen principally from the mouth and the nose of about the potential risk, but we must be balanced cattle, because the disease is less pronounced in in our approach to that risk, which could be sheep, which is why it is difficult to diagnose in avoided by preventing the animals from excreting sheep. The possibility of avian transmission the virus. At the moment, we do that by between premises applies mainly to cases that slaughtering them. involve cattle. Cathy Jamieson also asked whether there are John Scott: I am sorry to interrupt, but as a effective alternative control methods. The two working farmer who has, regrettably, seen dead elements of the control programme are the placing animals all too often, I know that the first thing that of restrictions on movement and the rapid a hoodie crow or a gull will do is go to the head of slaughter of affected herds. Both of those a dead animal and take its tongue. That is the elements must be implemented effectively if the attractive piece of flesh. I find it devastating that epidemic is to be contained. We all realise that that is not being taken into account when dealing that is what MAFF is trying to do. with animals that are being left unattended, given that that is where the secretions come from. Broader alternatives might be to do with vaccinations and so on. We would have to take Dr Sharp: Most of the animals that are being specific questions on such alternatives in order to killed do not have frank clinical disease. That is an answer satisfactorily. important consideration. John Scott: Even so, I am still concerned. 15:00 Professor Woolhouse: I appreciate the Dr Murray: For how long after death is the virus concern that has been expressed about the delay active in secretions? in moving carcases. As my colleagues have said, Profe ssor Woolhouse: The risk of an animal there is a risk associated with that. However, we spreading the disease when it is dead is much should be more concerned with the delay between lower than the risk of its doing so when it is alive. the time when animals become infected and show clinical signs that must be reported and the time Dr Murray: Are you able to give any indication when they are slaughtered. That is the delay that of the time scale that I asked about? is driving the epidemic. Profe ssor Woolhouse: After consultation with Cathy Jamieson (Carrick, Cumnock and my colleagues, the answer is no. We cannot give Doon Valley) (Lab): At the risk of labouring the an absolute answer. point that other members have made, I am The Convener: I have been asked to tell the concerned by one of the press reports that has witnesses that they do not need to press their been circulated, in which the president of the NFU microphone buttons in order to speak. Somebody at UK level says that some farmers in the north- in the control room turns the microphones on. west of England suggest that starlings descending on buildings could transmit the virus. That would John Scott: I do not want to dominate the be a matter of concern. Is there a basis in meeting, but I have a question about vaccination. scientific evidence for the belief that starlings or Could you explain to my colleagues in the other birds could transmit the virus? committee why vaccination is not a realistic option? Are there any alternative mechanisms that could be put in place to control and contain the disease Mr Greig: I will start the ball rolling and my in the future? What might they be? colleagues can pick up on the detail later. Dr Sharp: Starlings would play the same part in Two doses of vaccine must be given before the the transmission of the virus as would any other animal becomes immune to the virus. The vaccine bird; they would act as a mechanical vector to lasts only for six months. To be most effective, it carry the virus from one place to another. must be specific to the strain of virus that is in the country at the time. There is a financial cost; Cathy Jamieson: Are you saying that, in theory, international trade is affected. It is impossible to it is possible for birds such as starlings to transmit vaccinate young animals as the mother’s the virus? Does that mean that some of what we colostrum can block the immunity. Vaccinated think of as airborne transmission might not be animals can become carriers. They also produce airborne in a straightforward way? antibodies in their blood that cannot be Dr Sharp: I could not answer the question in differentiated from those in an animal that has those terms. Saying that it is theoretically possible recovered from the disease. If an animal is a for birds such as starlings to act as a mechanical carrier, it can infect other animals and cause other

1747 13 MARCH 2001 1748 outbreaks. Vaccination is not 100 per cent disease is introduced is slaughter and eradication. effective. That remains the best option. John Scott: It is not an option. Mrs Mary Mulligan (Linlithgow) (Lab): Mr Greig said that vaccination was considered during Mr Greig: It will be a long time before we can the outbreak in 1967. As the disease is so consider it to be an option. The knock-on effect is infectious, it seems strange that not enough work so tremendous that it would be a major step to has been done on developing a vaccine. Does take. Vaccination was considered in 1967 and such work continue? I accept what you say about 1968 but the authorities decided to walk away vaccination not being effective at this stage, but from it. we should prepare for the future. We do not seem John Scott: That confirms my view. to be doing that. The Convener: You said that it was necessary Professor Woolhouse: You must remember a to give two shots, which would last only for six couple of things. The virus is endemic in many months. Would that necessitate repeated regions of the world. Much research into vaccine vaccination in all stock? development is being conducted. If you are saying that it has not come up with the answer that we Mr Greig: There would have to be on-going need now, you are right—it has not. In general, I vaccinations, which would mean an on-going cost. support your comment. However, there has been The Convener: You said also that it was much research on vaccine development necessary for the vaccine to be specific to certain worldwide. virus types. Does that mean that a vaccination Mrs Mulligan: Is that continuing? programme that was specific to one virus would not protect the livestock of this country against any Profe ssor Woolhouse: Yes. other virus? Dr Richard Simpson (Ochil) (Lab): I take it that Mr Greig: There are seven strains, as you it would never be possible to guarantee 100 per know. The present one is O, as was the last one. cent immunity with a vaccination. Immunity would The best protection is given by using a vaccine not be guaranteed beyond six months, even for that has been developed specifically to deal with those animals in which it took, and the vaccine the strain that affects the livestock at that time, would not take in a percentage of the herd, where because the strains change with time. the virus would continue to operate normally to create the infection. If the vaccination route were The Convener: Certain articles in the press followed, the disease would be endemic. have suggested that a vaccination programme would not be particularly onerous. What do you Profe ssor Woolhouse: That is broadly correct. think that implementing a vaccination programme Alex Fergusson (South of Scotland) (Con): I to eradicate the disease would cost the livestock will return to Professor Woolhouse’s correct industry in terms of time, effort and money? remark that the most dangerous delay is that Profe ssor Aitken: While my colleague is between infection discovery and slaughter. No one thinking about that, I will answer. would argue about that. I will focus the discussion on the cases in Scotland. I live in Galloway. Like I do not think that the cost can be measured—it my colleagues David Mundell and Elaine Murray, I would be horrendous. The problem is not so much have regularly visited the crisis centre in Dumfries, in the production and application of vaccine, as in where there is a stark and revealing map on a changing the status of the recognised health wall. As of last night, there were 24 confirmed situation of animals. The country would no longer cases in Dumfries and Galloway. Of those, 23 are be disease-free. We would live with the disease, in Dumfries and one is in Galloway. and the cost would be in banning the export of materials—livestock and livestock products. The There is a stark difference between the two oncost would be heavy and continuing. My areas. I hope—touching wood, crossing fingers colleagues might want to amplify that. and every other thing—that the case in Galloway will remain the only one there. It has not yet— Dr Sharp: You asked whether vaccination would again I touch wood strongly—led to any more eradicate the disease. It patently does not. It has infections within striking distance. In Galloway, the never been used for that purpose. It is best used largest farm by far was infected. The outbreak was where the disease is endemic—prevalent in a discovered fairly quickly in one field of sheep in country—to reduce the disease’s prevalence. the middle of a large farm. Stock was drawn in When that has happened, you stop vaccinating from all the boundaries towards the middle of the and go for culling, which will take you towards farm and was duly slaughtered and incinerated. eradication. Several studies have shown that the most cost-effective way forward in a country that is It is fair to say that most of the farms in the free of foot-and-mouth disease and into which the cluster of 23—which is confined to Annandale and

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Eskdale in Dumfriesshire—are smaller units of that stage, it had covered virtually the whole of the contact. If the outbreak is in the centre of the farm, UK. contact is easier roundabout. As I see it, the My thought at the moment is that, after the lesson from Galloway is that the slaughter of a outbreak has been contained, it may be too late to large number of animals where only a small look at what proactive slaughter, if I can put it that number was infected created a buffer zone. I way, should have been carried out. I feel that we would like the scientific view on whether we should need to be proactive rather than reactive if we behave proactively rather than reactively as we do need to contain the disease. I do not accept that it at the moment, when we slaughter everything on a is under control. farm when infection is found, then essentially sit back and wait for the next infection to be found Profe ssor Woolhouse: We answered a before we slaughter again. question on that point at the beginning. The rapid spread across the country has obviously been a Is there a scientific case for considering the marked feature of the epidemic. It is a reminder creation of a buffer zone around a farm on which that we do not just live in a global village, we live an infection is confirmed? Is there any scientific in a global farm. There is a lot of movement of evidence to show that slaughtering the stock on all animals. neighbouring farms would create a buffer zone and help to prevent the spread of the disease? That said, the situation in Scotland is rather simpler. According to the data that are being Professor Woolhouse: I agree with your generated by MAFF, there appears to be a single interpretation that rapid implementation of the origin for the Dumfries and Galloway outbreak, slaughter policy in Galloway would certainly have which is connected to Longtown market. There are helped to contain that outbreak. That is important. a certain number of primary cases, which can be We have to realise that this outbreak is traced directly to contacts with that market, and a something like the 30th introduction of foot-and- number of local-spread secondary cases. There is mouth disease into the United Kingdom since the nothing particularly complicated in Scotland at the second world war. Some outbreaks have taken moment, though we are always concerned that off—this one appears to be taking off at the new cases may pop up for all the reasons that we moment—and some have not. There is a large have been discussing here. stochastic element to whether such introductions At the moment the Scottish outbreak is not take off. We have heard about all the complicated showing the global farm aspect. The hope is that transmission routes that the virus may or may not the restrictions on national animal movements take. There is a lot of chance involved. Obviously, have been effective in stopping us from living on a the chances of controlling the virus are increased global farm. by prompt and effective control measures. They just increase the chances of control. There is Alex Fergusson: Are you saying that, because always a stochastic element to the spread of the we have the disease in Scotland in a fairly virus. For that reason, it is a difficult disease to confined area, a buffer-zone slaughter policy is not control. entirely daft? I do not think that my colleagues have direct Professor Woolhouse: You asked for a experience of the implementation of buffer zones. scientific basis for such a policy and I cannot give There may be a scientific case for the sort of you that. If you want my instincts, such a policy control programme that you outlined, but it would would potentially be helpful, but a careful cost- be hard to work out the science of that now as benefit analysis of the kind that we have been events unfold so rapidly before us. The scientific talking about for vaccination or any other control case has presumably been determined previously, measure would need to be done. Just to and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food implement such a policy on an ad hoc basis has chosen the implementation of the control because we think that it might be good at this measures that you see. I hope that that policy will stage seems a little unwise. be reviewed after the outbreak, but I do not think that there is any direct evidence for buffer zones. Rhoda Grant (Highlands and Islands) (Lab): We have heard that people and vehicles can Alex Fergusson: Thank you for that answer. transmit the disease to other places. What steps There is a huge difference between the current should be taken to stop that happening if people outbreak and any previous outbreak in the UK. In have been in contact with someone who has been the outbreak in the 1960s, there were 2,500 in contact with the disease? Is a risk involved? Are cases, but they were virtually all confined to two there steps that the general public can take? We counties. This time, the original spread of the have all heard about hillwalkers and the like being disease was not just the extent of the disease but, discouraged. Do they pose a big risk or a small once a windborne case was involved, it became risk? Are there steps that people could take to the base from which the disease would spread. By lessen the risk?

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15:15 countryside, the aspects of personal cleanliness Profe ssor Mayhew: I can tell you what steps and washing are extremely import ant. we have taken and what steps we would advise There is some confusion concerning what the general public to take. We advise people as constitutes livestock, for example, whether that much as possible to keep out of all areas where includes horses. The definition of livestock varies livestock have been. If that is not possible, they in the different papers that have been released. should take precautions to prevent the spread of There is confusion, and the information could be the disease. Disposable protective clothing should clearer. be used and not taken away from the site, even when the contact is with uninfected animals. The Convener: As there are no further Animals should not be allowed to roam and all questions, I invite you to comment on what we dogs should be under complete control, and have heard so far, before we move on. people should disinfect themselves if they are Profe ssor Aitken: Thank you, convener. I returning to an area where the disease could be would like to follow up on the previous question. spread, such as our veterinary college. Does that Sensible controls are being applied to members of help? the public, and we are trying to discourage contact Rhoda Grant: Yes. However, in places such as with livestock, especially livestock with cloven railway stations, where a lot of people are passing hooves, which are the animals that are susceptible through, someone may have been in contact with to the disease. However, I remind the committee the disease and no one else would know. Are that restrictions are being applied even in there steps that people can take in such places, or Edinburgh. For example, Edinburgh Zoo has had is the risk of such transmission so small that it is to be closed because it houses a number of not worth addressing? cloven-hoofed animals. As the people who visit the zoo come from a great variety of places in the UK Profe ssor Mayhew: It is worth while to raise the including the north-west and north-east of point about the degree of risk. There are potential England, it is a very sensible idea to close it. It has risks even from what is under one’s fingernails. been closed at a penalty, because it is dependent However, general household cleanliness is very on the paying public for its operation. good for stopping the spread of the virus. Washing clothes in a hot wash and routine personal There has been a good measure of public hygiene can stop that sort of transmission. If there understanding of the difficulties imposed by this is any chance of someone becoming involved with disease and of the need to remain careful and animals that could potentially be infected, those cautious in what they do. Although there might controls work well. Household bleach, for have been mixed messages, personal example, is a fantastic method of killing the responsibility is the driving factor. organism. I want to make just one more observation about Mrs Ewing: On the issue of effective controls, concerns over whether the disease is being people are concerned about what seem to be controlled. Much of that issue comes down to mixed messages about what they can and cannot semantics and the use of the word “control”. do in the countryside. Do people at the Edinburgh Controls on the movement of animals and access centre for rural research feel that sufficient action to farms have been applied; those are all part of has been taken? In an attempt to defend Ireland the management of a disease with known from the disease, sailings between Holyhead and parameters. As a result, perhaps it would better to the republic have been cancelled and a variety of use the word “management” instead of “control”. other measures are being implemented. It may not The Convener: I will take this opportunity to be possible to protect against airborne thank our witnesses from the Edinburgh centre for transmission of the virus, but the Irish are doing rural research for their help. I am sure that, as the everything that they can. Do you feel that further committee will return to the foot-and-mouth issue action could be taken and that there could be at some point, we will wish to speak to you again. more clarity in the information that is issued to the general public, who seem to be genuinely Our next group of witnesses is from the Scottish confused about what they can and cannot do? Beef Council. I invite Keith Redpath to introduce his colleagues and make some remarks, after Professor Mayhew: I agree that there is some which we will once more open the floor to confusion surrounding the information that is questions. available from all sources. It comes down to the risk-to-benefit ratio. One could take things to Keith Redpath (Scottish Beef Council): On extremes and tell everybody to stay at home. For behalf of the Scottish Beef Council, I want to thank anyone who might return to the countryside, or the Rural Development Committee for this who is concerned about having contact with opportunity to share some of our fears about the vehicles or people that are likely to return to the future of the Scottish beef industry. On my right is

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Robert Forster, the chief executive of the National concerns us greatly. A farmer from Grantown-on- Beef Association, which looks after affairs Spey phoned me on my way up here this morning throughout the country and of which we are a part; to tell me that, further to point 7 on my list, and on my left is John Bell, who is vice-chairman livestock is this week travelling again, under of the council and a farmer from Fife. I farm down licence, from Anglesey to an abattoir in Grantown- in Berwickshire and have been very much involved on-Spey. I do not know what label that meat will with pedigree cattle and even exporting. I have be sold under, but it is absurd that meat should be recently been abroad trying to set up some allowed to be brought up from an infected part of genetics export business, all of which is now the country to a lovely clean part of Scotland such unfortunately on the back burner. That is quite as the Grantown area. I would love to see some disappointing given the world-wide enthusiasm for action taken to stop that sort of thing happening Scottish genetics and produce. while we are in this dreadful crisis. We have not come before the committee this That is all that I want to say in introduction. afternoon to disagree with any of the Thank you again for the opportunity to bring those Government’s actions or measures; indeed, we points before the committee. commend and support everything that is being The Convener: Thank you. We now have an done to try to control this dreadful disease. We opportunity for questions. want a policy of eradication to be introduced as soon as possible. When we were speaking to the previous witnesses, we discussed the possibility that an Over the past three weeks, all our agricultural alternative control policy may be adopted— businesses in Scotland have been paralysed. Now vaccination instead of slaughter. What would be the problem has extended far further and has the potential impact of such a policy on the market badly affected other groups and industries. We for your product? really have to take note of what has happened and try to ensure that such a disaster never happens Keith Redpath: I will answer first, then ask again in the UK and Scotland. We are extremely Robert Forster to add his comments. proud of Scotland’s beef product, and it is acknowledged throughout the world; however, that I am involved in pedigree genetics and exporting recognition has dropped in the past three weeks. around the world, and vaccination would completely finish that. Think of our heritage in As a result, we have compiled a list of 18 Scotland. Aberdeen Angus cattle have historically measures that should be taken and which we commend to the committee for its consideration. been exported all over the world. Even with the demand for the continental breeds that are raised At such a time, we must ask various questions in Scotland, the genetics business has a very about double standards in the industry, especially good future, which would be completely wiped out with meat that is imported into the UK from other by a vaccination policy. That would knock the countries. Many of those countries do not have enthusiasm out of some of the excellent breeders safety procedures and standards that are in Scotland, who I class as being among the best comparable with our own. We have heard in the world. That would be extremely sad. scientific advice that, after an animal has been Robert Forster will speak about the effects of killed, the disease cannot travel in the meat. But where has the disease come from? There has not vaccination on the meat trade. been a case in this country for a long time. The Robert Forster (Scottish Beef Council): The disease must have come in with something, and most fundamental point when considering whether we need to take drastic measures to ensure that to vaccinate in attempting to control foot-and- such an outbreak does not happen again. There mouth disease is that, if we vaccinated, we would should be much stricter measures in relation to no longer be part of the non-foot-and-mouth club meat imports. in world trade. Any action that we tried to take in exporting any livestock product, including milk, We have other concerns with the current market. would therefore be extremely proscribed. Although Scottish meat prices dropped substantially yesterday because of the amount of imports that milk is not within the Scottish Beef Council’s remit, it is the most valuable of our livestock export are coming into the UK. Yesterday, I spoke to an products. Quite simply, if we vaccinated, we would Aberdeen wholesaler who had a lorry at Smithfiel d in London on Sunday afternoon. It was the only not be part of that club. We might be able to advance some products under restraint, but the UK lorry unloading beef into Smithfield market. All restraint would be severe. The delivery of those the other trucks there were from other countries in eastern and western Europe and had travelled products would be minimised and there would be an on-going financial penalty for as long as we some distance. There is a lot of pressure on a continued to vaccinate and could not declare pretty devastated market at the moment. ourselves to be free of foot-and-mouth disease. I would also like to reinforce a point that

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Richard Lochhead (North-East Scotland) questions about the stranglehold that (SNP): The current crisis appears to have supermarkets seem to have on food production. highlighted the lack of meat processing and What sort of controls should be placed on slaughtering facilities in many of Scotland’s rural supermarkets? Should more support be given to areas, which has led to extensive transportation of the development of farmers’ co-operatives, livestock around the UK. You mention in the note farmers’ markets and other mechanisms by which that you gave to the committee that you think there meat can be produced and slaughtered nearer to should be more regional slaughtering in Scotland. home and sold locally? I have just received a written answer from Ross Keith Redpath: It is difficult to say how we Finnie, in which he said: could control the supermarkets. It could be easier “I agree that it w ould be desirable if more of our livestoc k with meat products than with some other were slaughtered and processed w ithin Scotland”—[Official commodities, but the supermarkets put their Report, Written Ans wers, 12 March 2001; Vol 11, p 138]. suppliers under extreme pressure for price for What are the barriers to having more facilities in every commodity that they retail. Scotland, especially in rural areas, and how can Our list also mentions the Meat and Livestock we overcome those barriers? Commission, which we feel could give more Robert Forster: There are several points to guidance on the cost of beef production. I know make about that. I was pleased that a statutory that it can be difficult to implement such guidance instrument was passed just yesterday that relieved when there is a world market price for a medium and small abattoirs of what would have commodity. The supermarkets try to force down been an on-going and heavy Meat Hygiene the price of the beef that they buy, using the world Service inspection charge. I understand that the market as a guide to the price that they feel charge will be severely reduced from 1 April. As a justified in paying. Some sort of guidance needs to result, it will be easier for those medium-sized and be given to the retailers about what price should small abattoirs that are still working to continue to be paid for the products that they are selling. work, and other abattoirs may be encouraged to Robert Forster: The principal problem in selling take advantage of commercial opportunities a product such as Scottish beef, which I believe to should they arise. be greatly undervalued, is that the retail culture in The reason for the concentration in slaughtering the supermarkets is one of discount. It is difficult to is complicated. However, the single biggest advance a quality product at the volume that one pressure has been the wish of the major multiples, would like when it is burdened with high which have themselves become concentrated— production costs, some of which help to make it there are only five really big ones—to take their special in terms of safety and quality, and when it beef or lamb only from a small number of is challenged by the price of beef that is less good dedicated abattoirs. One big retailer may be taking that comes in from other areas. That situation is meat from only three abattoirs across the UK— worsened by the discount culture that causes one in Scotland, one in England and possibly one large retailers to try to sell their beef more cheaply in Northern Ireland. That has helped to than other large retailers. concentrate slaughtering facilities. Alex Fergusson: Who determines the price that There is an important factor that Scotland should is paid to the producer? Without the auction not overlook. More cattle are slaughtered in market system, there seems to be no basis on Scotland than Scotland itself produces. Let me which to determine the base price. I wonder how stress that there is not a net exodus of beef that is being controlled and how the extra costs animals out of Scotland. A great deal of work and that are involved in getting rid of the surplus wealth is generated by the import from England of material in the slaughtering process are covered. perhaps 30 to 35 per cent, but no more, of the Are such costs being passed back to the cattle that are slaughtered in Scotland. producer? Keith Redpath: We are concerned that the 15:30 transparency has gone out of the market as a The Convener: Are you talking about cattle that result of the auction system not operating. A week are imported specifically for slaughter or cattle that ago, we had an R4L price of roughly 180p and, in are imported at some stage in their life-cycle and some parts of England, the price was as low as then eventually slaughtered in Scotland? 160p. This week, we are faced with a lot of pressure. Yesterday, some of the wholesalers Robert Forster: I would say both. were treading water for a day rather than committing themselves to prices. However, I think Dr Murray: Point 12 on your list indicates that you feel that supermarkets need to be controlled that the price will definitely be down to 175p or 172p and that there will be a further drop next further. Members of all parties have asked week because the various wholesaling plants are

1757 13 MARCH 2001 1758 up to their necks in beef. A fortnight ago, when we replace 50 breeding cows, that could be done were not doing anything, there was a huge kill in quickly. One problem might be that the cows Ireland. A great proportion of that Irish beef has would all have to be at the same stage of lactation come to the UK. or calving so that it was possible to arrange to have all of the calves in spring or in autumn. There The Convener: You made reference to a might be a problem with the price as, if the virus carcase grade. Can you explain the term “R4L” to spreads further than it has already, there would be members of the committee who might not an undue demand on a reduced supply. However, understand it? every farm would face a different decision. Keith Redpath: It is an average grade that acts Fergus Ewing: I am the local MSP for the area as a benchmark in the beef industry. that includes Grantown-on-Spey. Point 7 in your Mr Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) submission mentions the fact that livestock from (Con): I declare an interest, in that I am a sheep Anglesey was hauled to an abattoir in Grantown- and cattle farmer. on-Spey in a lorry that then continued to Aberdeenshire to be loaded with pigs that were In the Orkneys, many cattle are ready to go by then hauled to Cheale Meats in Essex. You point ferry to Invergordon to be slaughtered. Those out that the farmer who contacted you with that cattle are a long way from any affected area. Is news was concerned about the risk of his animals there any reason why those cattle should not be being infected with foot-and-mouth disease by a moved? lorry that had passed through many infected Keith Redpath: There is no reason why they areas. should not be moved. The National Beef I am aware of the case and was contacted about Association has been advocating the use of it at an early stage. Is it your understanding, as it collection centres. Robert Forster has argued that is mine, that the movement took place before the case at meetings in London. Orkney is the ideal movement control regulations were introduced and example of why some areas ought to have a that, therefore, there is no imputation of any illegal collection centre to allow cargoes of cattle to be activity on the part of the abattoir owner? moved. One of our colleagues who had hoped to be here this afternoon works for Scotbeef, which Keith Redpath: I appreciate what you are would probably deal with the cattle from Orkney. saying, but a licence has been granted for two People are concerned that the current movement more loads to come up this week or next week. restrictions—that there must be only one lift and The farmer has contacted me again and is that the animals must be taken directly to extremely concerned that the problem is on-going, slaughter—are totally uneconomic. It should be even under licence. That is appalling. permissible for the Orkney cattle to be brought Robert Forster: The question of movement is together and transported at the same time. essential as we try to minimise the spread of the David Mundell: Could you explain how the disease. We are trying to stamp out foot-and- process of restocking the farms that have been mouth disease without stamping out our industry. affected by the slaughter policy will work? How As a result, there must be some discretionary long will it take? movement to allow, as far as possible, commercial functions to be undertaken. Keith Redpath: Robert Forster has been present at meetings when that was discussed, so I The licensing system that allows animals to be will hand the question to him. moved under licence directly from the farm to the abattoir is a good idea. However, my Robert Forster: There has been little discussion understanding is that the travel time should be on that point. Minds have been focused on the limited to four hours and that that maximum should crisis and its spread. I understand that the farm be used only in the case of people who are finding has to be clear of animals for six months before it it difficult to get their animals to an abattoir—it can be restocked. Because the time at which should be something of a privilege. The problems restocking would be possible seems a long way of the north of Scotland and of the pig industry away, thoughts have not gone beyond that. were mentioned specifically in that context. David Mundell: Without speculating too much, Farmers who are bringing animals up from how long might it take to get a herd up and Anglesey to the middle of Scotland are pushing it, running again from a standing start? as are farmers who move animals from the north of Scotland to abattoirs in the middle of England Robert Forster: That would depend on where and in the Welsh borders. The National Beef farmers pitched their purchases. If farmers Association frowns on such behaviour. decided to breed their own herd and set themselves up with a particular type of animal, it An alternative solution is up for consideration: might take longer. If farmers decided simply to collection centres. That would be suitable for the

1759 13 MARCH 2001 1760 situation in Orkney, as it would allow a group of Keith Redpath: When I originally contacted the animals to be assembled in one place before Rural Development Committee to arrange a being brought under licence to a specific abattoir. meeting, there had been no confirmed cases of In our view, the licensing of a network of collection the disease in Scotland. I wanted to suggest some centres would reduce journey times, possibly form of restriction at all the border road crossings, minimising the risk of spreading the disease, and even to the point of disallowing any livestock allow more commercial movement. We would vehicles from crossing the border. Such measures welcome the use of such centres, because they would have been possible, although the problems would make sense in both biosecurity and might have been worse for people living in the commercial terms. Borders, in Coldstream and Berwick, than for folk who did not live in that area. Fergus Ewing: I am grateful to you for clarifying point 7. The question is why a licence was issued As Scotland has now contracted the disease, in those circumstances. It might be appropriate for the situation is different from that of a fortnight you to report the matter to the Scottish Executive ago, when we discussed holding this meeting, and rural affairs department, so that an investigation I do not know how effective it would be to establish can be carried out. some super-duper infection procedure at every border crossing into Scotland. However, if it was The Convener: I understand that Alex going to work, I would support any measure to Fergusson has a question. keep the disease under control. Much more Alex Fergusson: Yes. Thank you, convener. information would be needed from the My previous question was merely a manufacturers of the disinfectants and from the supplementary, and I have been waiting for the scientists who understand more about it. opportunity to ask this one. The Convener: I thank the gentlemen from the Earlier, I asked the scientists about the scientific Scottish Beef Council for coming along and possibility of a buffer zone, and whether there is answering our questions. scientific evidence to show that such a zone would We now welcome representatives of the Road be an effective method of controlling the spread of Haulage Association. I invite Phil Flanders to the disease. I put the same question to you, from a make an opening statement, after which we will practical point of view. How does your association ask questions. feel about that possibility? How would your members feel if they were, in theory, unaffected Phil Flanders (Road Haulage Association): but a neighbouring farm was found to be Thank you for allowing us to speak to you on contaminated and they were told that their stock behalf of the livestock hauliers in Scotland. On my would be slaughtered to create a buffer zone? I right is Pat Glancey, the Road Haulage am looking for a practical response to the same Association’s area manager for Scotland; on my question. left is Mr Eddie Harper, the chairman of the Road Haulage Association’s livestock haulage group. Eddie is one of the most knowledgeable people in 15:45 the industry, and we are fortunate to have him with Keith Redpath: I feel that it is a little too soon to us today. implement such a measure. All the problems are restricted to one corner of the country, and we Through no fault of their own, hauliers are facing hope that the situation stays that way. We do not a cash-flow problem. Lack of earnings and, in want the people who have to deal with the disease some cases, loss of earnings are causing hardship to suffer, but if we can keep the situation in and the possible lay-off of drivers. The biggest fear Scotland as it is now, at some time in the future is that highly experienced drivers will be laid off we could reduce some of the restrictions for the and will be lost to the industry. They will get other greater part of the country and get back to normal jobs, as is already happening in parts of England. more quickly than if there was a mosaic pattern of Their skills are not gained overnight, and a infection all around the country. If the creation of a significant amount of money is invested in training buffer zone around the infected area would help to drivers to certifiable levels. Furthermore, the achieve that, that would be a sensible suggestion specialist vehicles that are used can cost up to to follow. £100,000—the price of a 13.5m triple-deck trailer with feeding and watering facilities and an air John Scott: Would it make sense to have better circulation system for the welfare of the animals in road disinfection procedures? Perhaps that is a transit. Such vehicles cannot be put to much other question for the Road Haulage Association, and use. one that I should have asked of the scientists. Should we install foot-baths, as it were, for lorries One change for the better is the fact that and cars on all the roads into and out of Dumfries? abattoirs have been forced to allow hauliers to wash out. The regulations state that abattoirs must

1761 13 MARCH 2001 1762 have adequate wash-out facilities. What does out, another check-out would be opened. Yet adequate mean—a hose and a cold-water tap? hauliers wait for seven hours to come out of Hauliers are having to pay excessive amounts to abattoirs, because some vehicles take longer to use the facilities—up to £50 for a double-decker— wash because they have never been washed or and Pat Glancey will provide more details on that disinfected. There should be a professional later. At present, people are waiting six to seven system for the movement and registration of hours to get washed out at abattoirs, and there are vehicles that transport animals. Licences should claims that it is taking longer to clean some be issued only to abattoirs that have proper wash- vehicles because they have not been cleaned out facilities and disinfectant. This is no time to cut regularly in the past. Most livestock hauliers, who corners. In June, a statutory instrument on clean out regularly, are becoming frustrated cleansing and disinfecting vehicles that are used because it takes them only 20 minutes to clean out for transporting livestock was passed by the once they get the chance to do so. Scottish Parliament. Unfortunately, that instrument said only that vehicles had to be disinfected within The moving of sheep for lambing, because of the current crisis, will have serious consequences “not more than 24 hours”. for hauliers, as they can be held liable for any We are now paying the price for cutting corners. welfare problems that the animals suffer in transit. Eddie Harper will provide some information on I agree with Robert Forster from the Scottish that. On the wider issue for the rural economy, if Beef Council; animals should not be going from livestock hauliers do not survive the crisis, who will Grantown-on-Spey to Anglesey or vice versa. carry the animals to the high standards to which They should not be going from Aberdeen to Shotts professional livestock hauliers in this country or from Perth to Shrewsbury to be slaughtered. adhere? There should be a time limit on the movement of animals, which should be a maximum of four The loss of drivers is not the only great concern; hours. the potential loss of haulage businesses is also worrying. Hauliers have years of experience, Eddie Harper (Road Haulage Association): which is essential for the future. It is important for There are serious implications for the welfare of the future that we all turn our attention to resolving the sheep about which there is talk of moving. the situation now. Who knows what other crises Farmers have a problem, because the sheep are will arise? We need to start tackling issues such out wherever they are being kept and are spread as the licensing and registration of all carriers of all over the country. The haulage industry has a livestock, including farmers and hauliers. All serious problem in that we will be li able if we start vehicles and trailers should be inspected. We to move the sheep, because we cannot move any must add to and improve the facilities at abattoirs animal that is likely to give birth and we are talking and markets. We must ensure that no corners are about sheep that are heavily pregnant. There are cut and that confidence in Scottish and UK farming welfare implications all round. is restored. That will cost, and everyone will have If we move some sheep the distances that they to pay a wee bit extra for their meat. However, that will have to be moved when farmers say that they cost is not as high as the current cost to the want them home, that will be horrendous for the countryside and the country as a whole. There is other animals that are parked, if you like, in the no real alternative. fields, which will be passed over. There are Patricia Glancey (Road Haulage serious implications, whether or not we move Association): For a considerable time, one of our those animals. We are concerned about the major concerns has been the lack of wash-out distance that we might have to move some of facilities at abattoirs, slaughterhouses and them. markets. To get a licence, an abattoir must have I could not agree more with Robert Forster from wash-out facilities. Until the present crisis, very the Scottish Beef Council about the four-hour few abattoirs had such facilities—not just journey. I was party to that suggestion and, in this adequate facilities, but any wash-out facilities at crisis, four hours should be the maximum time for all. If vehicles are not washed out properly, which any animal is being moved. I back Robert disease will spread. We also have a grave Forster fully. We know that, currently, loads of concern about the types of vehicles that are being animals are going from Scotland to the midlands used to transport animals during the crisis. That is or to mid-Wales to be slaughtered. That is not why, as Phil Flanders said, we require all farm right. vehicles and hauliers’ vehicles to be inspected and registered by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries The Convener: Do members have any and Food. questions for the Road Haulage Association? What constitutes adequate wash-out facilities? If Dr Murray: I spoke to a road haulier in my 25 people were queuing at a supermarket check- constituency before this meeting. The company is

1763 13 MARCH 2001 1764 a livestock haulier that employs five men and Eddie Harper: The livestock vehicles that we seven lorries, which have not been able to move use cannot be used for anything else. About 75 since 23 February. Its turnover is down by per cent of livestock vehicles are designed in such £17,000. It has not laid anybody off yet, but that a way that they cannot be used for anything else. may be imminent. The containers can be lifted off some vehicles that date back a few years, but that cannot be done As a national organisation, is the Road Haulage with most vehicles. They are built as specialist Association involved in any discussions with other vehicles, and very heavy investment is required for bodies—the Government or others—about the those vehicles. specific problems of the livestock haulage industry? Who are you talking to and at what stage I know that a lot of straw companies—certainly are the discussions? in our part of the world—have stopped delivering, because of the problem of going from farm to Eddie Harper: We have been heavily involved farm. in talks in London. Our chief executive, Mr Roger King, has been to two or three meetings at On the livestock side, if we are going into farms, Westminster on this issue. We have a serious we go to one farm, we make one delivery to an problem because drivers are leaving the industry; abattoir and then—as the committee heard—we we have lost count of the number of drivers who wait for six or seven hours to get washed out have done so in the past seven days. Those are before going to another farm the next day. We do professional lads who have been in the job for a not do that without having the livestock vehicles long time. They have left because lorries are washed and disinfected. standing still; they have mortgages to pay. Once I do not know whether Pat Glancey knows we lose those lads, we have a serious problem anything about the food side. if—and it is a big if at the moment—we ever get back to normal. If we get back to normality, we will not have the 16:00 experienced staff to move those animals. We will Patricia Glancey: The livestock group has then have a welfare problem, because some issued a directive on milk collection and animal companies will put anybody behind the wheel. The feeds to hauliers who must go into infected areas. law says that the drivers must be competent, but We have even got the Vehicle Inspectorate to give there is no certification. A load of hazardous goods permission for some of the spray suppression cannot even be moved down the road without parts of vehicles to be removed, so that they do somebody having a certificate. Why should it be not trail on the ground. We have, as far as different in the livestock haulage industry? There possible, kept the rest of our industry well should be certificates. Many reputable companies informed, but we have reminded hauliers that train their staff and invest a lot of money in that unless they must be in an area to deliver animal training. Those lads are now leaving the industry. feed or bring out milk, they should not be there. That applies to some of the round timber hauliers, Dr Murray: Are the talks with Government on- especially in Dumfries and Galloway. Livestock going? hauliers have very little work coming in, except the Eddie Harper: Yes. chaps who are moving some stuff, but other hauliers are affected as well. Dumfries and Rhoda Grant: People who are taking in Galloway should be classified as a crisis area. feedstuff have expressed concerns to me. What steps are hauliers taking? The concern is that a Alex Fergusson: I will back that up, rather than lorry that is bringing hay might have stopped in ask a question. I spoke to a haulier in Galloway numerous places before it reaches a farm. last weekend, who said that he had got a contract Farmers are concerned that the product might to shift fodder from middle England and come have been in contact with foot-and-mouth disease back up. He was not allowed in middle England or been in an area where there is foot-and-mouth because he was coming from Dumfries and disease. They are concerned about how safe it is Galloway. Even if hauliers manage to get an to take feedstuff from other areas on to their alternative contract here and there, they may not farms. What steps has the Road Haulage get the benefit of it. Association taken to cut down the risk of disease Cathy Jamieson: I declare an interest, as a being spread through the transport of feedstuff? member of the Transport and General Workers The Convener: Although you are here to speak Union. on behalf of the livestock haulage industry, am I You made the point strongly that livestock right in thinking that one of the few other hauliers use specially adapted or designed opportunities that livestock hauliers have currently vehicles. Am I correct in thinking that you is haulage of fodder? suggested that some inappropriate vehicles are

1765 13 MARCH 2001 1766 being used? Is there any evidence of that? on premises, and as they go in and out of farms. Unless they have to go into infected areas, they Patricia Glancey: We are suggesting that some are not doing so. The haulier to which Cathy of the vehicles that are being used for the Jamieson referred is not hauling timber; he is movement of animals to abattoirs are not clean probably hauling fridge vans, because I passed enough, that they should be inspected and that two on the motorway. they should not be used for that purpose. That applies to farm vehicles and hauliers’ vehicles. Cathy Jamieson: We will not dwell on that. That is why we say that operators should be Fergus Ewing: I wish to pursue the concerns registered, inspected and licensed by the Ministry about the proper disinfection of vehicles that are of Agriculture Fisheries and Food. being used under the movement licenses that Cathy Jamieson: Forgive me for not knowing have been granted as an exception from the strict this, but has there been an on-going discussion movement control policy. Do you have evidence about that with the appropriate authorities, which that the disinfection of vehicles is not taking place? has been brought to a crucial point by the present Patricia Glancey: We have found that, since crisis? the regulations on foot-and-mouth came into force, Patricia Glancey: The on-going discussion has cleansing and disinfecting facilities have been been on the washing and cleansing facilities at made available, but they are not adequate. A abattoirs. What has brought the issue to a head is livestock haulier who is used to cleaning out his that, in this crisis, some people are giving work to vehicle should be able to clean a two-decker vehicles that are not clean and livestock should vehicle in 20 minutes. Hauliers are currently not be near them. That is why it takes six or seven unable to do that because other vehicles are using hours to clean the vehicles at abattoirs where the the facilities. Our concern, which goes back to facilities are non-existent. before the statutory instrument and pre-1999, when a hauliers meeting was held in Leith, is that, Cathy Jamieson: Are you suggesting that the at all abattoirs and markets, there are inadequate restrictions on the length of time for movement facilities for cleaning and disinfecting vehicles. ought to be applied only in the current situation, or do you want them to be applied in the longer Fergus Ewing: I understand the evidence that term? the facilities are not adequate, and that that results in an unacceptably long wait—six or seven Patricia Glancey: The drivers’ hours on hours—before some of your members’ lorries are tachograph and the Welfare of Animals cleaned. Plainly, that is not acceptable, but it is a (Transport) Order 1997 cover the movement of slightly different matter from the subject of the livestock. However, in the current situation, we question that I put to you. Are you concerned that, have great concern about beasts being moved all under the current licences to move animals, some over the country, especially those that come from lorries are not being properly disinfected, and England to Scotland, which must travel through therefore might harbour the virus and transmit it? infected areas including, I am sorry to say, Dumfries and Galloway—we only hope that it Patricia Glancey: Yes, that is our concern. stays there. Why should livestock be brought north Fergus Ewing: Have you passed on those of Dumfries or Moffat to be slaughtered? concerns to the authorities, in particular to the Cathy Jamieson: I have a final question, the Scottish Executive rural affairs department and subject of which has been touched on. My MAFF? constituency of Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Eddie Harper: Yes. We know that vehicles that Valley is near Dumfries and Galloway, and in it have not been cleaned out for more than a day are there is much timber transport on rural roads. Will carrying stock to abattoirs. I know of cases in you expand on your comments on the other which vehicles have been confiscated in abattoirs industries that rely on the haulage industry? What and the drivers given their bus fares home, have been the implications for timber transport? because they cannot clean their vehicles. Trailers Patricia Glancey: Timber hauliers are not going have also been kept in abattoirs and the drivers into forests in infected areas. One of our members sent on their way. That also concerns us, because is on a committee of the Scottish Timber Trade the drivers have been sent back to the farms in Association, and its members have decided that whatever was pulling the trailer, be it a Land they will not go into infected areas. They will not Rover, a truck or whatever. break the regulations. Timber will have to stay in Fergus Ewing: We are pleased that you have infected areas until the hauliers can go into them. brought those concerns out into the open. The hauliers are not going into the countryside. Eddie Harper: The main concern is about Milk carriers have to go into infected areas, but vehicles that have not been cleaned arriving at they do so under regulation. They are disinfected abattoirs, rather than vehicles leaving. Meat

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Hygiene Service inspectors are at abattoirs to drivers guaranteed pay of only £16.70 a day for watch vehicles being washed and disinfected, and five days a week for 13 weeks. Drivers can sign on they are there until late at night. for jobseekers allowance, but they will get nothing for the first three days. Members can imagine why Fergus Ewing: I am sure that the rural affairs a qualified driver, who has a good record and has department will take seriously your been driving for a considerable time, would walk recommendation on the provision without delay of away and get another job. He cannot live on adequate facilities. unemployment benefit, because he has Patricia Glancey: On the last page of our commitments to meet, just as his boss has submission, members will find the European commitments to meet. His boss must pay for Commission’s guidelines on adequate wash-out vehicles that are on loan-lease agreements, he facilities. Some livestock hauliers are being has to pay VAT, he has to pay national insurance, charged as much as £50 to wash out their two- and he has to pay the tax man while no money is deck cattle floats at abattoirs. coming in. David Mundell: I have a broader question. We do not have a solution for our members, Haulage is an important industry in Dumfries and especially those in Dumfries and Galloway. Our Galloway, because a lot of people are employed in chief executive, Roger King, is pursuing those it and—because of the geography of the area— issues on a national basis, but we would be virtually all goods are brought in by hauliers. delighted were the Scottish Parliament to pay Elaine Murray and I attended a meeting in compensation to Scottish livestock hauliers. All Langholm on Friday. The crisis affects every that we can give our members is advice. Some single person in that community, and hauliers are hauliers in David Mundell’s area are down by part of it. What practical measures can be taken to £3,500 a week because they are trying to retain keep the lorries in the area while they are laid up, their drivers, but they cannot keep paying out that other than the simplistic approach of giving people money—nothing is coming in. money? Are there measures that can be taken to David Mundell: Do you know how many people ensure that we will have a haulage industry in the have been laid off? There must be a cycle, as you area when we finally get through this crisis? indicated, in terms of how long it is sustainable to Patricia Glancey: In Dumfries and Galloway in sit— particular, many livestock vehicles cannot be used Patricia Glancey: Sorry? for anything else. The box at the back cannot be removed, so the vehicles can be used only to David Mundell: There must be a limit to how transport animals. Unfortunately, because of the long it is sustainable to sit without income. number of cases of foot-and-mouth disease in Patricia Glancey: We do not have detailed Dumfries and Galloway, some hauliers are Scottish figures. The limit is how big the haulier’s reluctant to go outwith the area. Some people are bank account is, how understanding their bank reluctant to give the hauliers work because of the manager is, and how much of an overdraft the farmland that the hauliers have to cross. bank manager will give the haulier to pay off Everything from the ferry port at Stranraer is being workers. Very few haulage companies do not run disinfected. on an overdraft. On the practical side, anybody can get work by Eddie Harper: South of the border, many using a tractor unit and pulling for somebody else, hauliers have reported that drivers have left but the committee must remember that the because obviously they could not live on nothing haulage industry is very competitive and that in the past few weeks, or the governor has said to things are tight. I can assure members that them, “I cannot keep you any longer. Please try to hauliers are not getting the rates that they would find something else.” A haulier rang me at the normally get for pulling a curtain-sider, a box van weekend. He had two drivers and has very luckily or a fridge. If what they have is a livestock trailer, got them into driver agencies. One or two they must either hire a trailer, or hire themselves agencies in the south have been looking for out just as a tractor unit. Therefore, the rates are drivers. His big problem is that they might get a not available that would allow them to earn liking for that work and will not come back to the anything like the money that they would earn as livestock industry. At the end of the day, they will livestock hauliers or to pay the bills that are just sit in their cabs, back on to the unloading dock coming in. and never touch a load. That is a problem. A week past Friday, we had to issue information Although we have dedicated drivers at the to our members about lay-offs and how much moment, once they leave us and go to something guaranteed pay they would have to pay their men. else, all of a sudden they might find the other side We have been in contact with the job centre to see of the fence to be greener. what people can get. It is sad—firms can pay

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16:15 must be addressed very seriously by all MSPs and The Convener: There are no further questions, MPs and involves the issue of the policing of food so I thank Phil Flanders and his team from the imports, the need for adequate labelling and the Road Haulage Association for helping us to buying policy of retailers and processors. understand better the industry’s problems. Because of the time that has been spent on the We are lucky enough to have John Kinnaird with issue this afternoon, I do not wish to give any us. He is vice-president of the National Farmers more evidence. I would rather answer questions— Union of Scotland. I have left John until last we are here to do that. However, I cannot because, although he will speak on behalf of the emphasise enough the degree and scale of NFUS and express his views, it will be useful to despair that is out there. There is a huge sigh of have his comments on some of the other things relief in many parts of Scotland that, as yet, the that we have heard today. disease has not reached them. We can only hope that that continues and that the outbreak that is John Kinnaird (National Farmers Union of confined to Dumfries and Galloway at the moment Scotland): Thank you very much for giving me the can be eradicated with the utmost speed. opportunity to give evidence to the committee. David Mundell: In the affected parts of It is important to reiterate what has already been Dumfries and Galloway, the movement restrictions mentioned. There are 24 confirmed cases of foot- have not been lifted. We are reaching an and-mouth disease within Scotland. extremely difficult position, and there are serious It is equally important to mention that the NFU is animal welfare issues. Somebody I spoke to last currently receiving in excess of 2,000 calls each night was in tears about sheep that were in a day from concerned members and members of the turnip field and beginning to lamb—they were farming community, including those who are not unable to get food to them. If the movement NFU members. The situation is desperate. The restrictions are not lifted—I do not think that they number of calls that we are receiving is evidence will be, and I would not necessarily expect them to of that. be—is the way forward to have a slaughter scheme in respect of stranded stock? Movement restrictions have had a horrific effect, not only in economic terms, but on animal welfare. John Kinnaird: If we cannot move such animals All farmers face mental stress and despair. because of the restrictions on movement, we have However, the restrictions must be retained. They no option but to slaughter them. On animal welfare have been essential for control of the disease and grounds, there is nothing else that we can do. To have to remain until the disease is brought under have the disease confirmed, and for people to control and completely eradicated. watch their stock being slaughtered and burned, when they can do nothing about it, is beyond We welcome the licensing procedure that allows belief. However, every person who has had the some animals to be moved on welfare grounds, disease confirmed admits that that is the only way but many farms are not eligible to take up that to eradicate it. When perfectly healthy stock is facility. We now need seriously to consider taking lambing, calving and farrowing in conditions that more radical action. the animals are not meant to be in—and the Compensation will become an issue, but the farmers have no intention of leaving them there— immediate priority remains the total eradication of drastic measures have to be taken. It may be the disease. Costs will be considerable and will go unpleasant and unpalatable, but animal welfare far beyond the farming industry. We have heard must come first. about some of the costs to other sectors. It looks The Convener: I presume that there would be a increasingly likely that the situation will not be difference between the movement of animals from resolved in a matter of weeks. It is more likely that areas that are directly affected by the disease and it will take months to be fully resolved. that of animals in areas that are under restriction In the longer term, the question of how to regain only. Is there an option in areas where the disease our disease-free status and thereby regain our lost has not been directly identified to extend the markets must be addressed. We cannot ignore current radius for movement so that, for welfare that. It is no exaggeration to say that the industry reasons, animals can be moved over longer is in complete crisis. We therefore request the full distances? support of all MSPs in allowing the industry to John Kinnaird: Yes, that could be considered. rebuild and to compete again. We are not talking However, at all times we have to rely on veterinary about handouts—we are not after those. We want and scientific advice. We will consider whether it is the source of the outbreak to be addressed. possible to extend the radius, but we must never Without a shadow of a doubt, we have not had forget that it is the movement of animals that can foot-and-mouth disease in Scotland for over 40 spread the disease. We have to be as near as years. The disease has been imported. That fact possible to 100 per cent certain that we are not

1771 13 MARCH 2001 1772 moving the disease around. It is important, the Scottish Executive do anything to assist? wherever possible, that people move their stock John Kinnaird: Are you talking about farms that back, to allow it to lamb and calve and so on. We have had foot-and-mouth disease? are rapidly approaching the main lambing and calving season. Dr Murray: Yes. The Convener: It would be safe to assume that John Kinnaird: That should be addressed. W e no licensed movement scheme will be available in must never forget that, although farms on which the specific area that is affected by the disease. foot-and-mouth has been confirmed and whose Will it therefore be necessary to introduce at the stock has been destroyed will have compensation, earliest possible opportunity a scheme for the that compensation applies only to the value of the slaughter of animals on welfare grounds? stock on the day of slaughter. A commercial herd or flock will take a minimum of five years to get John Kinnaird: There will be no movement of back to the standard that it was at before the animals within an infected area. However outbreak was confirmed. If it is a pedigree flock, unpleasant it may be, we should address the there is every possibility that it will not return to the slaughter issue head on, and introduce such an same standard for 15 or 20 years. Compensation approach. will in no way address the need to rebuild the Mr McGrigor: The season is nearly upon us stock to the same quality as that which has been when away-wintered hoggs, which are the lost. However, if people are heartbroken and seedcorn of the blackface and Cheviot industries, cannot return to livestock production, and if it is should return home. There are thousands and possible to diversify into other forms of production thousands of away-wintered hoggs. If they are a and that is what people wish to do, assistance long way from infected areas, can you indicate should be made available to them. when farmers might get a licence to bring them Alex Fergusson: I am interested that you said back? They can sometimes be more than 200 that all cases in Scotland can be linked. It is my miles away. understanding that in at least one, and perhaps John Kinnaird: As they are not in lamb, there is more, of the cases in Dumfries and Galloway, the less of an animal welfare problem, so away- spread has been airborne. I accept that the wintered hoggs will be low down the list of original link goes back to Longtown, but surely, if priorities for movement. The problem might arise the odd case is now airborne, we are facing the on the farm that they are on, when the farm spread of the disease through non-directly linked requires the grass that the hoggs are eating, for methods. When is a linkage not a linkage? If we silage production or for milk production in the dairy go by what you said, and if every farm in the herd. country got foot-and-mouth, we could say that that was linked, because it started from Longtown. Alex Fergusson: The convener can probably However, I am sure that you would agree that that guess the question that I am about to ask. What is is not the case. the view of the NFUS on the idea that I have been floating this afternoon of taking a more proactive John Kinnaird: I hear where you are coming role in preventing the spread of the disease by from. At this stage, I do not think that any creating, through a radically increased slaughter outbreaks of the disease in any part of Dumfries policy, buffer zones? and Galloway have come from anywhere other than somewhere with a direct link to Longtown. John Kinnaird: If the disease is spreading Many farms that had linkages with Longtown on rapidly, we must address that quickly. At the the day in question have been inspected and moment, all the outbreaks in Scotland are linked— cleared. To date, all our evidence is that there is that is important. It has been possible—due in part no spread, airborne or otherwise. to traceability through animal records—to trace the outbreaks. That is encouraging. If the disease Alex Fergusson: The minister announced in the starts to get out of control, that is the only thing we chamber last week that an outbreak was caused can do, but I do not believe that it is out of by an airborne infection. control—it is still being contained. John Kinnaird: I have to abide by what he said, Dr Murray: At the meeting in Langholm that was but I had not heard that. If the disease has moved referred to—which David Mundell, Russell Brown only once in a week, I would suggest that it is not and I attended—one of the proposals from local out of control. However, it must continue to be people was that we might consider the alternative monitored closely. use of land, and that people in farming could go David Mundell: My understanding is that there into biomass production and so on. What is the is more than one airborne case, and it is NFUS position on that? Would you be able to offer suggested that there is a waterborne case as well. advice to farmers who were considering coming Those cases are linked to other farms. That is out of farming? Could the Scottish Parliament or

1773 13 MARCH 2001 1774 what has changed people’s perspective on the products. We become price takers rather than matter. price makers. That brings me on to the issue that I wanted to The Government must take some responsibility, raise: the general well-being of the farming even if that means starting another investigation community. We went through a period when all the into supermarket pricing. No way should the cases were linked to dealers and linked directly to consumer pay more for their meat when the Longtown market. Then those cases peaked and primary producer is getting less. Somewhere in appeared to tail off. In the middle of last week, the middle, large sums of money are disappearing. there was a false dawn when there were no new However, we appreciate that a lot of costs have cases. Then there was the Hartwood case, which been added to abattoirs because of the increased was airborne, and a number of other cases. haulage costs of one dedicated journey from farm Farmers have now been holed up in their farms to abattoir. The disposal of by-products from for over two weeks. Instead of a general feeling slaughterhouses is also a very expensive that things are getting better, there is a feeling that operation. The costs of that have gone up things are getting worse. The likelihood of a farm considerably in the past week. getting foot-and-mouth disease is much worse. Those matters need to be addressed, but it is Farmers are much less keen to send their children wrong that all the costs should come back to the to school and are less keen that their wives go out primary producer. We are the ones at the sharp to their work. Are we managing that well enough, end. We produce the goods to a high standard. to ensure that the welfare of farmers is under We can be proud of that standard and consumers control? How long will we be able to manage the can relate to it. situation? If much of the increase in price has come from imported produce, I have to ask why. A fortnight 16:30 ago, imported produce was swamping and John Kinnaird: I cannot answer that question. It depressing our markets. All of a sudden, it is is way out of my league. We encourage farmers to increasing the price of meat for the consumer. talk to their neighbours as often as they can, even That has to be wrong. That must be addressed by telephone. There is a direct line to the and rebalanced. Samaritans. The outbreak will have an immense impact on the mental well-being of many people, The Convener: If there are no further questions, purely and simply because of the stress and strain I thank John Kinnaird for coming along and talking that they are under. to us today. Without a doubt, the committee will return to foot-and-mouth disease, but we hope that The rest of Scotland is holding its breath, hoping we will be able to return to it looking back at a that foot-and-mouth disease will not come to it. I successful eradication of the disease from am a farmer, too. I know what it is like. The Scotland and then considering the aftermath. precautions that we have taken are almost like a siege. I cannot imagine what it must be like to be That brings us to the end of the meeting. As the living in the middle of it. It cannot be pleasant. purpose of the meeting was largely to inform the Those living in the middle of it have to make some committee about the outbreak, I do not believe very hard decisions. We must consider further that it would be of any value for us to discuss what ahead than just the next six months. We have to we have heard today. We will consider it at a later consider what the consequences will be 12 or 18 stage. months ahead. Meeting closed at 16:34. The Convener: I will ask a question that relates to information that we got when we spoke to the Scottish Beef Council. It is noticeable that the prices of meat in the shops have risen quite significantly. At the same time, we are told, the prices that are being paid for the livestock that is being moved to abattoirs under licence have fallen quite significantly. What is happening to the market for livestock under the extreme restrictions that we have at the moment? Is there any prospect of prices improving during the restriction period? John Kinnaird: That comes back to the old story that the farming community unfortunately does not co-operate well in the selling of its

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