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1 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 2 GAME AND FISHERIES COMMITTEE

3 PUBLIC HEARING IN RE: HB223 & HB366

4 Monday, June 15, 2015 11:00 a.m. 5 G50 Irvis Office Building 6 Harrisburg, Pennsylvania

7 BEFORE: HONORABLE KEITH GILLESPIE, MAJORITY CHAIR 8 HONORABLE HAL ENGLISH HONORABLE 9 HONORABLE HONORABLE 10 HONORABLE HONORABLE DAVID MALONEY, SENIOR 11 HONORABLE BRETT MILLER HONORABLE 12 HONORABLE HONORABLE 13 HONORABLE TED HARHAI, MINORITY CHAIR HONORABLE MICHAEL DRISCOLL 14 HONORABLE PATRICK HARKINS HONORABLE SID KAVULICH 15 HONORABLE WILLIAM KORTZ HONORABLE 16

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1 COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT:

2 REPUBLICAN CAUCUS GREG RAFFENSPERGER 3 EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR CHERYL GRUBER 4 ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT SCOTT LITTLE 5 PUBLIC RELATIONS

6 DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS 7 STEVEN MCMULLEN EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR 8

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1 I N D E X

2 OPENING REMARKS By Chairman Gillespi 4 - 5 3 OPENING REMARKS 4 By Representative Sonney 5

5 TESTIMONY By Mr. Kim Stolfer 6 - 14 6 TESTIMONY 7 By Representative Saccone 15 - 17

8 TESTIMONY By Mr. Randy Santucci 17 - 24 9 QUESTIONS FROM COMMITTEE MEMBERS 24 - 31 10 TESTIMONY 11 By John Kline 31 - 34

12 QUESTIONS FROM COMMITTEE MEMBERS 34 - 37

13 TESTIMONY By Matt Hough 37 - 40 14 QUESTIONS FROM COMMITTEE MEMBERS 40 - 49 15

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1 P R O C E E D I N G S ------2 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Okay. Good morning, everybody.

3 We're going to go ahead and call this meeting of the House Game

4 and Fisheries Committee to order. This is going to be a public

5 hearing, relevant to two bills. This is a session day, so

6 there are going to be members coming and going throughout with

7 other obligations they will have at the beginning of the week

8 here.

9 Representative Harhai --- or Chairman Harhai is on

10 his way, but the first thing I'd like to do is have the members

11 introduce themselves, starting to my left.

12 REPRESENTATIVE FEE: Hi, I'm Mindy Fee. I'm from

13 the 37th District, which is Northern Lancaster County. Thank

14 you.

15 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Good morning, everyone. My

16 name is Bill Kortz. I'm from Allegheny County, 38th District.

17 Good to see Kim here today.

18 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Mark Keller, the 86th

19 District, which is all of Perry and part of Cumberland.

20 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Good morning. Dave

21 Maloney, the 130th from Berks County.

22 REPRESENTATIVE HARKINS: Good morning, everyone.

23 Pat Harkins. I represent the 1st District in Erie.

24 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Good morning, Jerry

25 Mullery, 119th Legislative District in Luzerne County. I'm

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1 going to apologize early. I have to leave for a voting meeting

2 at 11:30.

3 REPRESENTATIVE WENTLING: Good morning. Good

4 morning, Parke Wentling. I represent the 17th District which

5 includes Lawrence, Mercer, Crawford and Erie County.

6 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Barry Jozwiak. I represent

7 a big section of Berks County, the 5th District. And I'll be

8 leaving in a half hour also for another voting meeting.

9 REPRESENTATIVE DRISCOLL: Mike Driscoll, 173rd,

10 Philadelphia.

11 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Okay. At this time, we do have

12 one of the prime sponsors, Representative Sonney, who is the

13 prime sponsor of House Bill 223. Curt, would you like to say a

14 couple of words regarding your bill?

15 REPRESENTATIVE SONNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

16 I'd just like to thank the Committee for holding the hearing on

17 the bill. House Bill 223, as all of you know, is a bill that

18 would allow the use of semiautomatic rifle. The bill is

19 restrictive in caliber to 223. It's restrictive in magazine

20 size to a magazine of five and one in the chamber, so it would

21 be six rounds, and it's very restrictive in the animals that

22 can be taken. So like all of you, I look forward to hearing

23 the testifiers this morning then. And again, I'd just like to

24 thank you for holding the hearing and hopefully moving the bill

25 forward. Thank you.

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1 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

2 Sonney. Representative Saccone has the other bill that we'll

3 be discussing this morning. He is at a press conference, and

4 when he arrives, we'll give him an opportunity to make a few

5 comments, as we did with Representative Sonney.

6 Okay. We're pleased to have several organizations

7 testifying for us today. The first is the Allegheny County

8 Sportsman's League. Kim Stolfer is here on their behalf. And

9 I believe Randy Santucci of the Unified Sportsmen's is joining

10 him. Welcome, gentlemen. You may begin when you're ready.

11 MR. STOLFER: Thank you, sir. Mr. Chairman, members

12 of the Game and Fish Committee, I appreciate the opportunity to

13 appear before you today. Regardless of what you think or how

14 traditionalists and the public feel about using semiautomatic

15 guns for hunting, autoloaders and AR style modern style

16 firearms are becoming more and more accepted in hunting camps

17 in all but one state in the country, here in Pennsylvania.

18 On page 18 of the Hunting Digest, hunters are

19 greeted with this statement. Firearms and devices unlawful to

20 use. It is unlawful to hunt with one, automatic and

21 semiautomatic autoloading rifles and handguns, two, air or gas

22 operated rifles and handguns. We, Pennsylvania, are the only

23 state in the nation to have this general prohibition. The only

24 one, yet virtually every major firearm manufacturer is

25 producing these guns in suitable calibers, powerful enough for

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1 deer, hogs and bears.

2 In every hunting camp, someone will invariably begin

3 extolling the virtues of his personal choice of big game rifles

4 where it's sure to start an animated discussion. While there

5 are several action types in common use today, two of them, the

6 bolt action and semiautomatic rifles comprise the vast majority

7 of rifle actions that hunters carry into the field, except here

8 in Pennsylvania.

9 Modern rifle selection for today's hunter for all

10 practical purposes will really boil down to just two things;

11 The shooter's style of hunting and the game he intends to hunt.

12 Currently in Pennsylvania, we allow semiautomatic shotguns to

13 be used for hunting small game, migratory birds, turkey and

14 deer in special regulation areas. Ammunition specific without

15 incident. What that means is, is that in Southwestern

16 Pennsylvania, you can use a single projectile 12-gauge

17 semiautomatic shotgun, without a magazine restriction, and in

18 Southeastern Pennsylvania's special regulation area, you can

19 use buckshot. Now, the more populated area is Southeastern

20 Pennsylvania, and yet, you use buckshot, which is more

21 widespread, shoots nine balls, and yet, in the Southwestern

22 part of the state you can only use single projectile, but not

23 vice versa. The logic escapes me.

24 After all, I am a firearms instructor, certified to

25 teach law enforcement, military and civilians. We all know

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1 about the technology, and my testimony states the different

2 types and everything. Suffice it to say, that semiautomatic

3 rifles have been used in hunting ever since 1886. We can thank

4 the German Frederick (sic) Von Mannlicher for his contributions

5 to the firearms science. The arguments that once favored bolt

6 actions have fallen to the wayside because modern technology

7 has continued to incrementally overcome semiautomatic rifles'

8 original shortcomings, which really centered around feeding and

9 accuracy.

10 Two styles of semiautomatic rifles are typically

11 used for hunting. The first is a traditional style hunting

12 rifle and the other one is with a military lineage including

13 the AR style rifle. These rifles are reliable. After all, we

14 equip our troops with the select fire versions, past and

15 present, of some of these modern style rifles. They also are

16 very accurate, as they have proved and continue to prove again

17 and again in various shooting competitions throughout the world

18 up to and including 1,000 yards.

19 Once hunters get past the aesthetics and cosmetics

20 and untruths surrounding the guns, they discovered that

21 semiautomatic rifles are wonderful firearms for hunting,

22 offering a plethora of advantages. It is important to note

23 that semiautomatic guns are those which fire the round in the

24 chamber, extract it, eject it and load a new round into the

25 chamber if one is available in the magazine and then require a

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1 separate pull of the trigger for each shot.

2 Semi-autos will cock the gun at the same time in

3 preparation for the next shot. There is very little practical

4 difference in rate of fire between a legal pump action rifle

5 such as a Remington 760 and the average semiautomatic rifle

6 such as a Remington 740.

7 In the accompanying chart, it is readily

8 demonstrated that 49 of the 50 states in this nation accept the

9 use of semiautomatic firearms for hunting, and a super majority

10 of those states there isn't even a magazine limitation in

11 place. I would also add, by the way, that when magazine

12 limitations are in place, every other state that has one

13 operates on the honor system. They don't require you to alter

14 the magazine to fit the state code.

15 Many states also allow for the use of semiautomatic

16 pistols, such as Ohio. Ammunition limitations for that apply

17 for the hunting and harvesting of game depending on the species

18 as well. This is another important point since a semiautomatic

19 handgun and revolver for all intents and purposes have the same

20 rate of fire until their ammunition is expended. By the way, I

21 would add states like Ohio and Wisconsin used the Pennsylvania

22 study on the viability and comparison of shotguns versus

23 rifles, that this state did a number of years ago to change

24 their laws to make it more lenient to use different types of

25 guns and ammunition.

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1 There are many advantages to the use of a

2 semiautomatic firearm that is a plus for getting more

3 individuals to feel comfortable about getting involved in

4 hunting. One of the big downsides to a bolt action rifle when

5 compared to a semiautomatic rifle is felt recoil. Especially

6 for new shooters who have a smaller stature. The reason it

7 reduces recoil is because the action absorbs some of the gases

8 to work those --- the action of the gun, thus reducing muzzle

9 climb at the same time.

10 Larger calibers, from some favored deer calibers

11 such as the .30-06 on up, generate significant recoil that the

12 average shooter doesn't tolerate well. Gas operated semi-autos

13 attenuate this recoil. Another plus favoring semi-autos is

14 faster reloading for followup shots. All things being equal,

15 firing a shot in Penn's Woods requires a good bit of luck

16 because of the prevalent brush which can easily disturb the

17 flight of a well-aimed bullet, resulting in wounded game. Any

18 hunter that says he hasn't had a bullet get deflected by brush

19 in Pennsylvania has been sipping a little bit too much at the

20 beer trough, frankly. With a bolt action rifle or a lever

21 action, one must disturb the sight picture so that the action

22 can be operated to reload, which takes precious seconds away

23 from a followup shot to humanely put down wounded game. The

24 action on a semiautomatic firearm does not require one to lift

25 one's eyesight away from the sights, thus minimizing the

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1 likelihood that wounded game will be allowed to get away.

2 When we combine less recoil, minimizing of muzzle

3 jump, faster loading and getting the sights or cross hairs on

4 target for a second or third shot, semi-auto is hands down the

5 winner over the bolt action.

6 Another advantage on the plus side of modern

7 sporting rifles is their straight stock designs and muzzle

8 brakes. These features help to attenuate muzzle jump and

9 recoil for even faster followup shots than the traditional

10 semi-autos like the model 740 from Remington. Another features

11 is that semiautomatic military style firearms are easily

12 adapted to the use of silencers which can be an important

13 safety tool for the protection of hearing as well as a

14 respectful way to hunt without disturbing people unnecessarily.

15 A removable box magazine is a notable convenience as

16 well as a significant safety item. If you're doing a lot of

17 getting in and out of vehicles, such as when calling predators,

18 it makes loading and unloading the rifle simple. For the big

19 game hunter, an extra loaded magazine in a pocket provides a

20 fast reload. Where it's legal, the ability to use a higher

21 capacity magazine can be helpful.

22 The pistol grip design is another advantage for some

23 hunting situations. For example, when calling predators, it is

24 a smart policy to keep the rifle up and ready. A pistol grip

25 puts the hand in a more natural position, reduces hand fatigue,

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1 and it may sound trivial here, but after a long day of coyote

2 hunting is anything but trivial to manage and limit fatigue.

3 The pistol grip also provides a handle for an alterative way to

4 carry a shorter barrelled rifle with the muzzle down.

5 Semiautomatic rifles with a military lineage also

6 provide the option of quickly switching scopes and in many

7 cases for shifting to iron sights as an option. More than once

8 I have seen a hunt ruined by a damaged scope. It takes less

9 than a minute in many cases to switch to iron sights or another

10 pre-zeroed scope, and one is back in the hunt.

11 The ergonomics of military style semi-auto firearms

12 is another feature that benefits those of smaller stature, and

13 children, by in many cases having an option for an adjustable

14 butt stock that is a common option on many modern military

15 style rifles. If a hunter has short arms and thick shoulders

16 and heavy clothes to insulate one from the cold, it can be

17 difficult to shoot a firearm with a full length stock. Many

18 SWAT teams with their armor and bulletproof vests --- bullet

19 resistant vests, they have used those type of firearms

20 specifically to adapt them to their stature as well.

21 There's always going to be someone that's concerned

22 about safety. The discussions over the years have invariably

23 led to a belief that allowing the use of semiautomatic firearms

24 in a general sense to be used in Pennsylvania for hunting would

25 lead to a less safe environment. We researched that, and in

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1 the attached chart, it's clear that the hunting accident rate

2 in the vast majority of states is less than Pennsylvania, and

3 overall, there is no correlation possible to indicate a

4 connection between semiautomatic firearms and the accident rate

5 afield.

6 Moreover, these hunting accidents are not all

7 firearms related, as they include individuals falling out of

8 trees and tree stands and other non-firearm related accidents.

9 What is rarely discussed is the importance that a semiautomatic

10 firearm presents when confronted by a dangerous situation in

11 the woods if an individual is attacked by predators. While the

12 likelihood of this occurring may be small, that does not

13 diminish the importance of an individual having the latitude to

14 make the decision that they would like to have a semiautomatic

15 firearm as an option in these scenarios.

16 Unfortunately, up to this point, Pennsylvania

17 hunters are denied that lifesaving option. We consider safety

18 an essential element for all outdoor activities, and that is

19 one of the areas where semiautomatic firearms shine as well,

20 since unloading a firearm is made easier and more predictable

21 by the ability to remove a detachable magazine, open the action

22 of the firearm to verify that the chamber is empty without

23 having to cycle the bolt repeatedly to remove ammunition as is

24 necessary in a bolt action rifle and lever action rifles.

25 Also, semiautomatic firearms with a military lineage

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1 have a much more robust and definitive safety built into the

2 trigger grip, which provides for a greater degree of confidence

3 in the mechanical action of the firearm. The recent enormous

4 lawsuit award to Remington firearms because of defective

5 safeties in their bolt action rifles I would make a note of

6 here, and I've seen Remington bolt action rifles fire on the

7 closing of a bolt when recycling them.

8 There's no merit to avoiding taking action in this

9 important change. While there are two bills before us, House

10 Bill 366 has 49 co-sponsors, and House Bill 223 has 21

11 co-sponsors. We believe the best and most appropriate choice

12 is HB 366 and recommend that you, Mr. Chairman, and this

13 Committee support this legislation and move it to the floor for

14 a vote. It's long past due for Pennsylvania to join the

15 community of states that recognize freedom of choice on behalf

16 of the hunting community and cast off the mindset of

17 bureaucratic prohibition and prejudice of an era long gone.

18 In 2006, the legislature approved the lawful

19 carrying of self defense firearms by hunters afield, despite

20 decades of bureaucratic mistrust. We believe embracing new

21 technology is a furtherance of that common sense approach. On

22 behalf of the organizations I represent, I thank you, Mr.

23 Chairman and the Committee members, for the opportunity to

24 testify here today.

25 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you for your testimony.

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1 Before I get your colleague, I do want to announce that we've

2 been joined by Representative Peifer, English and Moul and also

3 the prime sponsor of House Bill 366, Representative Saccone, is

4 here. Would you like to come up and make a few comments

5 regarding your bill?

6 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you, Chairman, and I

7 thank the Committee and I thank the Chairman for bringing this

8 bill forward and I thank my colleagues for inviting these

9 testifiers up today, and we really have some really --- experts

10 up here, and I'm glad they came a long way to talk about my

11 bill.

12 The bill is very simple. The impetus of it was from

13 an article that sportsmen brought to me. I have nine gun clubs

14 in my district, brought to me that was in the International

15 Hunters Education Association Journal that pointed out about

16 --- had a chart of all the states that allow semiautomatic

17 hunting, and now we're down to just one. Pennsylvania is the

18 only one that doesn't allow hunting with semiautomatic. There

19 was two, and now we're down to one, we're the last one. And by

20 the way, this is the magazine that it was pointed out to me

21 that our instructors --- the Game Commission gets its

22 information to give their instructors, and this is what our

23 instructors read and draw on when they're giving their courses,

24 the hunter's safety course and so forth. So they pointed out

25 to me that this is a very good magazine and it talks about

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1 hunting with the semiautomatics across the country.

2 As was already mentioned, we already hunt in a very

3 populated area, Allegheny County, second most populous county

4 for sure with semiautomatic shotguns, so it's not something

5 that's totally new to the state. We've never had an incident

6 in the many decades now that we've been doing that.

7 My clubs also asked me to mention that things evolve

8 over time. They pointed out to me that, you know, we used to

9 be only allowed to hunt with a straight bow, and it took 20

10 years to allow compound bows and then crossbows, and things

11 evolve over time. And we need to evolve with our weapons, too,

12 our modern weapons platforms that maybe we weren't comfortable

13 with 10, 20 years ago. Things are changing and we need to

14 evolve with that. So the sportsmen in my area asked me to also

15 present that.

16 The beauty of the bill, I think, is --- and I hope

17 the Game --- I haven't heard from the Game Commission yet, but

18 I hope they're going to support it, because the beauty of this

19 bill is it allows the Game Commission to determine the species,

20 the season and the caliber. I didn't put that in there

21 specifically because I believe that's their function. And so I

22 just --- all I'm doing is enabling the hunting with

23 semiautomatic rifles in Pennsylvania and leaving the species,

24 the caliber and the season up to the Game Commission. So

25 actually, technically, we could pass this bill and they could

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1 say, well, no, we're not going to do it, because it's up to

2 them to decide those things. But that's all right, because I

3 think that's --- you know, I'm fine with the process the way it

4 is, but I think we need to enable it first in the state and

5 then allow the Game Commission to go through and determine what

6 animals, what size weapon and so forth.

7 I have a lot of faith in PA hunters. They're

8 trustworthy. We're a good state to hunt in. We're a safe

9 state to hunt in. And I think we can be trusted with

10 semiautomatic rifles in the woods. I know I've submitted to

11 the Committee letters of support from the NRA, from FOAC, from

12 the Unified Sportsmen, from the Eastern Pennsylvania Firearms

13 Coalition, from the Allegheny County Sportsmen, from the

14 Ambridge Sportsmen, from a number of other clubs across the

15 state who have given me letters of support to present to you.

16 We have over --- we now have 50 co-sponsors to the bill and

17 many of them are on this Committee. So I hope that you will

18 listen to the testimony and think favorably toward my bill

19 today. Thank you very much.

20 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

21 Saccone. Sir?

22 MR. SANTUCCI: Yes. Thank you, Chairman. I would

23 like to thank the Committee and Kim Stolfer for extending the

24 invite to testify here today regarding the use of semiautomatic

25 rifles and handguns for hunting in Pennsylvania. My testimony

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1 today is that of my personal position and that as president of

2 the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania.

3 Let me begin with an analogy of the use of the word

4 state identifying our game lands, as it implies an almost

5 metaphoric description, creating confusion to the general

6 public of the specific prescribed use for these lands. There

7 is similar metaphoric inference when the word automatic is used

8 to identify the single cycling of a cartridge in the chamber of

9 a firearm. Automatic paints a picture of the Roaring '30s, of

10 Bonnie and Clyde peppering a vehicle, which is commonly

11 referred to as an automatic gun.

12 The description of a semiautomatic gives an implicit

13 perception of a circumstance not wholly accurate, representing

14 semi-auto hunting use across our nation. Certainly, all here

15 today know the difference, and hopefully, we can bring

16 Pennsylvania up to nationally accepted standards regarding the

17 safe use and benefit of semiautomatic firearms by hunters. May

18 I give specifics in which I have developed my position and that

19 of Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania in supporting House Bill

20 366?

21 First, I'd like to reiterate a point identified by

22 Kim earlier that Pennsylvania has allowed the use of semi-auto

23 shotguns for over 50 years, with total success and no adverse

24 impacts to game, safety or loss of sporting or fair chase

25 aspects which we all hold in high regard.

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1 Early terminology used by the Game Commission

2 referred to semi-autos as autoloading shotguns, which again had

3 a softer, more acceptable tone back then. The single issue of

4 semi-auto shotgun used for half a century in itself dismisses

5 many hypothetical detriments to semi-auto use in Pennsylvania

6 for hunting, and is also as Kim mentioned the exact

7 circumstance we're debating here today. Shooting a single

8 projectile from a semiautomatic weapon is currently legal in

9 the two most highly populated areas in the state, the two SRA

10 areas, special regulation, Southeast and Southwest.

11 As a former member of Governor Tom Corbett's

12 advisory council for hunting, fishing and conservation, as was

13 Kim, I was involved in open discussion regarding pieces of

14 legislation to approve semis for hunting predators and

15 varmints. My input as an older hunter, I personally did not

16 prefer the look of the AR military rifle itself, but I'm aware

17 that my personal dislike of the aesthetics are just that, and

18 not representative of the popularity and favorable use today

19 across the nation.

20 Semi-autos are the most popular, top selling rifle

21 action in America today and have been for many years. It has

22 strong appeal to youth and growing appeal to even older

23 shooters like myself. Furthermore, Pennsylvania not allowing

24 semis for hunting perceptively puts us on the wrong side of the

25 pro-gun argument. With our prohibition of their use, it aligns

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1 with the anti-gun crowd, rather than being a solid pro-Second

2 Amendment state.

3 Upon completion of my testimony of support, Mary

4 Hosmer, a Pennsylvania Federation at large board member

5 followed, completely agreeing with my position and gave reasons

6 for the extensive semi-auto use she witnesses by family and at

7 competitive shooting events. Not knowing the Council's

8 position, I was relieved to see Mary's position of support,

9 which showed two of the largest statewide sportsmen's groups in

10 agreement with this particular semi-auto legislation. The use

11 of semi-auto firearms for varmints and predators was strongly

12 supported by the Council recommending the governor sign this

13 legislation if it came to his desk. Once again, the strong,

14 positive discussion further molded my position that semi-auto

15 use for only predators was stopping too short of where we

16 should ultimately be.

17 At this point, there needed to be an official

18 position from the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, so I

19 pulled our 18 member Board of Directors and every member

20 supported House Bill 366 to legalize semi-auto use for hunting,

21 for all hunting. What surprised me a bit is even the older

22 Board members, whom I thought would have held a more

23 traditional firearms view and might take some persuasion to

24 gain their support, were completely supportive. Upon my

25 questioning them further, several stated their support in part

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1 was because of their hunting travels outside of Pennsylvania.

2 They were exposed to semiautomatic rifle use having no

3 problems. I was somewhat proud of --- that our Board was

4 unanimously aware, even the older members, of the positive

5 situation that exists nationally regarding semi-auto hunting

6 use, and were not stuck in the mud of old circumstance, past

7 practice and falsehoods. Semi-autos may be 100-year-old

8 technology, but are the modern firearm of today.

9 Semi-auto popularity was again confirmed to me when

10 I attended the Harrisburg Sports Show, which brings me here a

11 few days each year to help out in the USP booth. We all know

12 this show is the largest sports show of its kind in the world.

13 Firearms manufacturers are set up in one building and

14 semiautomatic firearms were by far the most prevalent type of

15 action displayed by the top gun manufacturers. Once again,

16 this aspect shows the popularity and mainstream purchase and

17 use of these --- of the semiautomatic action.

18 I decided to continue to expand my research of

19 semi-auto use outside PA to someone that hunts in many states

20 in the nation. I contacted Ted Nugent, whom I still exchange

21 e-mails occasionally since my interview with him a few years

22 back. Ted's comments to this Committee is as follows.

23 Pennsylvania is a great state of great hunting

24 families, certainly smart enough and safe enough to use the

25 same 100-year-old firearm technology that the other 49 states

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1 allow. Semi-auto loading rifles and shotguns have been

2 presented --- have presented no safety issues different than

3 pump action, lever action, bolt action or any other loading or

4 reloading function in any of the 49 states that allow them.

5 Pennsylvania sporting families deserve the same respect and the

6 same rights. Ted Nugent.

7 I could not agree more with Ted's last statement

8 that Pennsylvania sporting families deserve the same respect

9 and rights of the other 49 states to safely and responsibly use

10 semi-auto rifles for hunting guided by the parameters of House

11 Bill 366. Safe, responsible hunting practice begins and ends

12 with the individual hunter, not with the type of firearm.

13 Continuing my research, I contacted my brother, and

14 this was literally last evening, a South Carolina deer hunter

15 and questioned him if he was aware of any problems with

16 semi-auto use in --- he is a member of several hunt clubs, and

17 his answer was a question, what kind of problem? Finally he,

18 as all I have questioned, recall no negative issues surrounding

19 semi-auto use for hunting, and that's mostly big game that he's

20 involved with in South Carolina.

21 I personally hunt deer with a Remington pump 7600.

22 A semi-auto can cycle five rounds maybe a second or so faster

23 which is insignificant. The significance is the ability to

24 keep a running deer in a sight picture when firing a second,

25 third or multiple rounds. The reduced muzzle jump of the

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1 semi-auto action owns that title undisputed.

2 In conclusion, the accuracy, recoil --- reduced

3 recoil and muzzle jump which benefit follow up shots to

4 dispatch an animal more humanely, further as to the reasoning

5 to legalize semi-auto firearms. Frankly, there are two numbers

6 identified here today that should have extreme relevance to

7 influencing your support of passage of House Bill 366. Case

8 history or past practice are always a top of the list of

9 deciding factors in any discussion, legislative or otherwise.

10 Those numbers are 49 and 1. I can understand concern and need

11 for this hearing on semi-auto legislation if Pennsylvania was

12 looking to become only the second state in the nation to

13 legalize semi-auto rifles for hunting, rather than the 50th.

14 The minimal restriction of House Bill 366 do not come from

15 irresponsibility or ignorance, but rather from the solid,

16 national semiautomatic hunting use providing broad latitude to

17 the Pennsylvania Game Comission to implement guidelines without

18 the necessity to come back to this body in the future to remove

19 unnecessary legislative restrictions.

20 Currently, the Pennsylvania Game Commission manages

21 by caliber in regards to game, species, areas that they are

22 allowed to be used, has nothing to do with the action of the

23 firearm, and I think that's been discussed even with the

24 semiautomatic shotgun issue.

25 The Pennsylvania Quaker State mindset with blue law

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1 overtones still interjects unjust, debilitating old world

2 restrictiveness holding us back, not only from what type of

3 action a rifle uses to expel and chamber a cartridge, but also

4 for other nationally recognized positive hunting circumstances,

5 like Sunday hunting. Thank you for your time. Myself,

6 personally, and the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania request

7 your support of House Bill 366.

8 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, gentlemen. We have

9 been joined by Representatives Everett, Miller and Kavulich.

10 Questions from the members? Representative Everett?

11 REPRESENTATIVE EVERETT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I

12 just want to make sure that I understand what the legislation

13 does, and either the prime sponsor or the speakers is fine.

14 All this would do would be allow the Game Commission to make

15 the determination of what kind of animals and what seasons and

16 et cetera, et cetera that these weapons could be used in, it

17 doesn't say that they will be used in any specific species,

18 season or activity; is that correct?

19 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: That is correct, and that's

20 what I testified to just a few minutes ago. And I think that's

21 the beauty of it, it gives the Game Commission the leverage.

22 It's within their purview. I didn't try to take something out

23 of their purview which belongs rightfully there. So it just

24 becomes a law, it makes it legal now, it would just legalize it

25 and allow them to determine where to go with it from there.

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 25

1 REPRESENTATIVE EVERETT: Thank you.

2 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

3 Everett. Representative Maloney?

4 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5 Representative Everett did expound on something, I wanted to

6 make sure it was clear, so I appreciate that. One question I

7 do have for those testifiers, with respect to a comparison,

8 have you done any comparison --- I mean, it's somewhat of a

9 loaded question, I really do know the answer to this, because

10 I'm very familiar with it, and that is the fact that you

11 actually can utilize a pump shotgun as fast if not faster

12 sometimes than some semiautomatic weapons?

13 MR. STOLFER: That is correct. That is correct.

14 MR. SANTUCCI: Representative, I could probably

15 answer that with a very short story. Years ago, we were doing

16 a running deer shoot at our sportsmen's club, and I was using a

17 7600, and you got to fire three shots within a distance where

18 the, you know ---. And I fired the shots so fast that it was

19 --- some of the people behind me misunderstood that I was

20 shooting a semiautomatic, rather than a pump action gun, and

21 they --- in fact, they had a little bit of a smart attitude,

22 well, we'll see what he can hit. And it turns out I did hit

23 the thing three times.

24 But you're absolutely right. There's little

25 distinction, I wouldn't want to live on the difference of the

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 26

1 time that you could pump a 7600 pump shotgun and which you

2 could shoot a semi. You're talking about milliseconds, perhaps

3 a second. So it's very, very --- the big advantage is, here,

4 is to stay on that sight plane, you don't have to move your

5 body, you lose --- you know, you can stay focused, and you can

6 stay in control of your firearm throughout a shooting process

7 on a deer. And that's enormous. And everybody knows in Penn's

8 Woods, sometimes those shots come very few and --- between the

9 foliage and the trees and the so forth. So it will give you a

10 distinct advantage across the board.

11 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: And it's mostly with

12 recoil.

13 MR. SANTUCCI: Right. Big, big advantage with

14 recoil.

15 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: As the pump does, with the

16 difference with the semiautomatic shotgun. So you're using the

17 same --- same type of projectile, but it's how it's being

18 delivered.

19 MR. SANTUCCI: Exactly.

20 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Thank you. Thank you, Mr.

21 Chairman.

22 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

23 Maloney. Representative Kortz?

24 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,

25 Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony. Just for sake of

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1 argument, I do use a pump shotgun, same thing, and the .30-06

2 and 243 and it's --- you can stay right on target.

3 MR. SANTUCCI: None of us want to go out there and

4 bang, two, three, four shots. But in essence, if that big buck

5 comes running by ---

6 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: That's right.

7 MR. SANTUCCI: --- no one sitting here that's an avid

8 hunter is going to say he's going to shoot one shot.

9 Otherwise, you'd only take one in the woods hunting with you.

10 So there --- followup shots on running game is certainly a fact

11 of life in deer hunting or any hunting, for that matter.

12 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: That's why I choose a pump

13 over a bolt.

14 MR. SANTUCCI: Same here, most hunters in

15 Pennsylvania that like the game have to.

16 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Quick question for Kim?

17 MR. STOLFER: Yes, sir.

18 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Your chart, I was looking it

19 over, and you talk about the number of fatalities. In any of

20 these fatalities, were any of them associated with a

21 semiautomatic gun? Do you know if any of the ones that are

22 listed by state?

23 MR. STOLFER: The data is not broken down, that's

24 all firearms, that's all fatalities, whether they fell out of

25 the tree, ---

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 28

1 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Fell out of a tree?

2 MR. STOLFER: --- they had a heart attack. That

3 came from the International Hunter Education Association, the

4 same people that compiled that information for that magazine.

5 And then we expanded upon that by folding in the firearms data

6 from the different states, so you could see a comparison

7 between the safety, and then also the safety number, the actual

8 percentage of accidents per capita of hunters, so that you

9 could see the direct correlation. Because it was interesting

10 for me to get that information, because I didn't know, you

11 know, how other states compared to Pennsylvania. And we're

12 towards the back end of the pack, basically, in the lower

13 third ---

14 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay.

15 MR. STOLFER: --- as far as safety goes.

16 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: One followup, if I may, Mr.

17 Chairman?

18 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Absolutely, Representative.

19 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: The states that do allow it,

20 the other 49, which one is the oldest? Has it been in since

21 the '20s, is it 1900? When did it start? Do you know? Is

22 there a date when they started to allow for ---?

23 MR. STOLFER: That's a good question. I tried to

24 find that, but the data --- I couldn't find anything. I've

25 seen it going back as far as 1911 and the use in New York, but

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1 I can't say for sure who's the oldest. It's just been a long

2 tradition in many other states.

3 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay. So it's been around a

4 long time in some of these other states ---

5 MR. STOLFER: Correct.

6 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: --- as far as we know? Okay.

7 MR. STOLFER: It's interesting to note, too, that

8 some of the most restrictive states for gun ownership like

9 Maryland and New York, now, allow you to use a semiautomatic

10 rifle. Here in Pennsylvania, we don't trust hunters.

11 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Yeah. I do like the

12 legislation, Mr. Chairman, and Representative Saccone, I give

13 you all the credit for putting this forward. I think it's a

14 smart move to go with the enabling legislation and let the Game

15 Commission decide, so thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

16 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

17 Kortz. Any other questions? Absolutely. Representative

18 Kavulich.

19 REPRESENTATIVE KAVULICH: Thank you very much, Mr.

20 Chairman. A question regarding the various species that would

21 be hunted with the --- with the semiautomatic. Would it affect

22 their --- the populations of these specific species where they

23 may become --- because of the fact that you --- to me, it would

24 seem --- and my dad was a hunter, I never got into it, but it

25 would seem to me that with the ability to fire off a few shots

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1 in rapid succession, you would have a better chance of bagging

2 a particular species. Would it thin out the species, because

3 we would have more of these being taken?

4 MR. STOLFER: No. Because the bag limits would

5 still be established by the Game Commission.

6 REPRESENTATIVE KAVULICH: Okay.

7 MR. SANTUCCI: That's a very astute ---.

8 MR. STOLFER: And the use of these firearms --- the

9 caliber, if you could hunt it with a bolt action rifle, say a

10 308, all this would say is you could hunt it with a

11 semiautomatic action in 308 Winchester. But with

12 Representative Saccone's bill, it adds a six round --- five

13 round magazine limit with one round in the chamber.

14 REPRESENTATIVE KAVULICH: All right. Good.

15 MR. SANTUCCI: And if I could elaborate on it, if

16 there was any noticeable difference, that's something that the

17 Game Commission certainly could adjust and allot for in

18 successive years with, like, seasons, bag limits and so forth.

19 So yeah, it wouldn't even --- with the current situation in

20 both special regulation areas, using semiautomatics, that

21 hasn't become or I've ever heard of it being an issue regarding

22 harvest percentages or so forth.

23 REPRESENTATIVE KAVULICH: Good. Thank you very

24 much.

25 MR. SANTUCCI: Thank you.

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1 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

2 Kavulich. Any other questions from the members?

3 Representative Kortz?

4 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: It's not a question. It's

5 more of a comment to the last question. I hope we can do that

6 to take out some of the coyotes that are killing off our deer

7 down in Greene County.

8 MR. SANTUCCI: Might help there, yeah.

9 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Seeing no other questions,

10 thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony. Thank you,

11 Representative Saccone, for the explanation ---

12 REPRESENTATIVE SACCONE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

13 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: --- and attending here today.

14 I know you had a busy morning with press conferences and so

15 forth. With that, our next group we'll hear from is the

16 Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. John Kline is

17 here on their behalf. Mr. Kline, you can start whenever you're

18 ready.

19 MR. KLINE: Thank you. My comments will be brief

20 and directed directly at the two bills. Good morning, Chairman

21 Gillespie and members of the House Game and Fisheries

22 Committee. I'm John Kline, Director of Government Affairs for

23 the Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs. The Federation is one of

24 the oldest and largest organizations in the Commonwealth,

25 providing leadership and advocacy for the benefit of hunters,

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 32

1 trappers, anglers and conservationists while vigilantly

2 protecting our Second Amendment rights.

3 The Federation currently represents about 71,000

4 members, with over 200 clubs spread across the Commonwealth.

5 Our membership also includes organizations such as the

6 Pennsylvania Trappers Association and United Bow Hunters of

7 Pennsylvania. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on

8 House Bills 223 and 366 regarding the use of semiautomatic

9 rifles for hunting.

10 As I mentioned in previous testimony and regarding

11 other matters, the Federation is a true grassroots

12 organization. The positions advocated here in Harrisburg by

13 the Federation are a result of direct input by individual

14 members and member clubs casting votes on a wide variety of

15 topics affecting hunting, fishing, trapping and the

16 conservation community.

17 Now, my next statement will certainly come as no

18 surprise to you as legislators and particularly as members of

19 the Committee. Hunters have a wide variety of opinions, and

20 they are not shy when making them known. Such is the case in

21 House Bills 223 and 366. As the previous testifier mentioned,

22 Pennsylvania hunters are currently permitted to use

23 semiautomatic arms for a variety of species. That's already in

24 place. For example, semiautomatic shotguns are permitted while

25 hunting small game, waterfowl, turkey, coyotes and deer in

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1 special regulation areas, just to name a few. Pennsylvania's

2 prohibition on the use of semiautomatic rifles for hunting,

3 however, remains in place, and requires a change in statute for

4 the Game Commission to properly regulate.

5 Let me say that in general, the Federation has and

6 continues to support legislation that puts decision making into

7 the hands of the regulatory agencies, on matters of seasons,

8 bag limits, licensing, equipment requirements and safety.

9 House Bills 223 and 366 would expand the use of semiautomatics

10 to certain calibers, in the case of 223, and magazine

11 capacities, in the case of 366. 223 also mentions that. Also,

12 and it's very important, we know of no evidence that indicates

13 that hunting with a semiautomatic rifle poses a greater safety

14 risk or added opportunity for a hunter to act inappropriately.

15 In March of this year, our delegates met in

16 Lewisburg, Pennsylvania to discuss a number of topics. House

17 Bills 223 and 366 were on the agenda for consideration by our

18 members. There was a lot of discussion and members made their

19 positions known, and that's what I'm delivering to you today.

20 The Federation supports House Bill 223, which would

21 allow the use of semiautomatic rifles, caliber 223 and less for

22 hunting coyotes, foxes and groundhogs. We recognize that there

23 are a number of rifles in this category that would be suitable

24 hunting arms.

25 On House Bill 366, however, our delegates took a

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1 different position. Let me state publicly that the Federation

2 recognizes that there is no stronger advocate for sportsmen and

3 the exercise of our Second Amendment rights than the author and

4 prime sponsor of HB 366, Representative Saccone. Having said

5 that, the Federation was not able to gather consensus to

6 support 366, which would allow hunting with semiautomatic

7 rifles, but with magazine restrictions. Some of our members

8 think that perhaps an incremental approach might be better. I

9 also point out that even though 223 is fairly prescriptive, a

10 number of delegates voted no on both bills, because both bills

11 are too prescriptive. In other words, let the Game Commission

12 decide on what tools are appropriate for the task. After all,

13 the legislature does not prescribe what kind of fishing

14 equipment to use. That's left up to the Fish and Boat

15 Commission.

16 These positions, which I'm explaining, may seem like

17 they're in conflict, and the point in bringing them to you

18 today is, hunters are --- they're all over on this one. In

19 general, they support the agency being able to make the

20 decisions, but in the case of 366, we're just not able to ---

21 the majority, to support it. So on behalf of the men and women

22 who make up the Federation, I thank you, and stand ready for

23 any questions.

24 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Mr. Kline.

25 Questions from the members? Representative Kortz?

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 35

1 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you for your testimony.

2 Just to get this straight, your delegation supports 223, ---

3 MR. KLINE: Yes.

4 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: --- but they take --- they're

5 not supportive of 366?

6 MR. KLINE: Correct. And to provide a little bit

7 more, I know it is --- it's an interesting mix. And again,

8 that's what I'm reporting to you today. Biggest reason for

9 failure to support 366 is our members believe perhaps an

10 incremental approach might be better, and what I mean by that

11 is by species. And again, that is --- that's a tough thing to

12 try to figure out, because 366 doesn't detail that, but ---.

13 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: As a followup, how many

14 delegates were there to take the vote?

15 MR. KLINE: In Lewisburg, 101.

16 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: 101?

17 MR. KLINE: At that particular meeting, yes.

18 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: And you need one more than 50

19 percent?

20 MR. KLINE: Correct.

21 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you. Thank you, Mr.

22 Chairman.

23 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

24 Kortz. Representative Miller?

25 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Actually, I thank you, Mr.

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 36

1 Chair. I believe my question was answered. So it wasn't that

2 there was no support, it was just that you couldn't come to a

3 majority consensus?

4 MR. KLINE: That is correct. And I say again, and

5 you folks know this better than anybody because you serve on

6 this particular committee, we hunters have a wide range of

7 opinions and we're not afraid to share it with you. So yeah,

8 there certainly was support, but just not enough to get us over

9 to form a position.

10 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Okay. Thank you.

11 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

12 Miller. Any other questions? Representative Maloney?

13 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

14 Mr. Kline, just for clarity, I know one of my questions was

15 somewhat addressed, but just for clarity, in part of your

16 testimony, you say that however remains in place and requires a

17 change in statue for the Game Commission to properly regulate.

18 So if I understand this, you realize that there has to be some

19 sort of statue change to let this happen; correct?

20 MR. KLINE: Yes.

21 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: So then when you say an

22 incremental approach, how would you make that work?

23 MR. KLINE: We didn't get down to that level. The

24 feeling as I attempted to explain to Rep Kortz was that ---

25 that's the general feeling of our members. We didn't lay out

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 37

1 any plan for that.

2 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: It would have been somewhat

3 helpful, a little bit more helpful, if we would have known how

4 we would go about that, especially with the 50 people that you

5 say were the only ones that really supported or didn't support

6 --- I guess my last comment would be that we see a lot of

7 different things, as you mentioned, that sportsmen are very

8 strong about, and there's probably been no stronger one than

9 the deer management problem. So I appreciate you going forward

10 and seeing your pro-activeness with that. So thank you for

11 your testimony. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

12 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

13 Maloney. Any other questions from the members? Seeing none,

14 thank you, Mr. Kline.

15 MR. KLINE: Thank you.

16 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Final group to present today

17 will be the Pennsylvania Game Commission and we have the

18 Executive Director Matt Hough here to provide testimony.

19 Welcome, Mr. Hough, whenever you're ready to go and if you want

20 to introduce your compadre, go ahead and get started.

21 MR. HOUGH: Good morning. With me today is Mr. Tom

22 Grohol. Tom is the Director of the Bureau of Wildlife

23 Protection for the Game Commission.

24 MR. GROHOL: Good morning.

25 MR. HOUGH: And he was the individual that did most

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1 of the research in looking at the regulations in other states,

2 so that's why I have Tom here to hopefully answer any questions

3 that I'm unable to. So thank you.

4 Thank you, Chairman Gillespie, Chairman Harhai and

5 members of the House Game and Fisheries Committee for providing

6 the Game Commission the opportunity to come before you today in

7 regards to legislation permitting the use of semiautomatic

8 rifles for hunting.

9 Although certainly not a new topic of discussion,

10 with increased production, quality, accuracy and reliability of

11 semiautomatic rifles over the past several years, we have seen

12 an increased interest from Pennsylvania hunters to be permitted

13 to use these firearms for hunting. In fact, many Pennsylvania

14 hunters already own a semiautomatic rifle of some type and

15 currently use them for target shooting or for use in shooting

16 competitions.

17 With the recent change in regulations in the State

18 of Delaware, the only state that entirely prohibits the use of

19 semiautomatic rifles for hunting is Pennsylvania. Many states,

20 including most of our neighboring states allow the use of

21 semiautomatic rifles with restrictions to include caliber,

22 magazine capacity, huntable species and seasons.

23 We have heard from hunters and landowners alike who

24 have expressed varied opinions that fall on both sides of this

25 issue. After reviewing the regulations in our neighboring

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1 states, there are several key components that we would prefer

2 to see included in the semiautomatic rifle legislation. The

3 most important aspect would be to give the Game Commission the

4 authority to regulate the implementation of semiautomatic

5 rifles for hunting just as we currently do for the use of

6 traditional firearms and archery equipment. Part of this

7 authority would be the ability to regulate caliber by species

8 in order to maintain consistency with our existing hunting

9 regulations.

10 Another key component would be a magazine capacity

11 limited to five rounds. This does not include one round in the

12 chamber, so the total carrying capacity would be limited to six

13 rounds. A magazine capacity of five rounds would allow for

14 quick followup shots that advocates want while minimizing the

15 safety and humane harvest concerns.

16 One of the primary concerns we have heard is in

17 regard to the use of semiautomatic rifles during the big game

18 seasons. In any legislation, we would like to see the huntable

19 species limited to coyotes, foxes and woodchucks, and to have

20 the traditional deer, bear, turkey and elk seasons excluded

21 from the authorized semiautomatic rifle usage regardless of the

22 species.

23 We are open to any discussions regarding

24 semiautomatic rifle legislation and welcome the opportunity to

25 work with you on this bill. Again, I would like to thank the

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1 Committee for this opportunity to come before you to testify

2 today, and we'll be happy to answer any questions at this time.

3 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Executive Director

4 Hough. Questions from the members? Representative Moul?

5 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good

6 to see you again, Matt. Thank you for your testimony. I'm a

7 little bit confused. Do you know or can you take a guess at

8 back when the Game Commission made the regulations why or what

9 the reasoning was to not allow semiautomatics but a pump rifle

10 would be fine? You know, I'm failing to see --- I'm trying to

11 understand this whole concept, but I'm failing to see a really

12 big difference between one and the other. I know the

13 difference, I just --- it's like the gentleman testified

14 earlier, I can crank a pump pretty quick, it's just that I have

15 to move my whole body to do it. What was the reasoning behind

16 it?

17 MR. KLINE: Well, I don't even think I was around at

18 that time, so ---.

19 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: I mean, but you're the --- you

20 know, what's the general consensus at the Game Commission as to

21 why we would not accept them?

22 MR. KLINE: I just think they've improved so much in

23 recent years, you know, their accuracy, their reliability,

24 they've just improved so much that it's --- you know, back then

25 when this all came to fruition, they weren't that --- you know,

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 41

1 weren't that reliable of a firearm for use in hunting.

2 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: So you're leaning more towards

3 saying you're okay with these bills?

4 MR. KLINE: Yes.

5 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Okay. Good. And would you

6 agree that with a semiautomatic there's less wounded animals

7 going to get away to die at a later date?

8 MR. KLINE: I would agree with that, yes. It would

9 allow for a quicker followup shot.

10 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Okay. I don't turkey hunt, so

11 you're going to have to help me out with this one. It's okay

12 to use a semiautomatic shotgun to hunt turkey but not a

13 semiautomatic low caliber rifle to shoot turkey?

14 MR. KLINE: Correct. In many parts of the state

15 you're not allowed to use a rifle during the fall turkey

16 season, even, of any type.

17 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Okay.

18 MR. KLINE: So, you know, regardless if it's a bolt

19 action or not, so ---.

20 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Right. Okay. Thank you.

21 Appreciate it.

22 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative Moul.

23 Representative Maloney?

24 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

25 Thank you, Matt. Matt, I think from some of the answers that

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 42

1 you made, I think you're referring to the fact that you do

2 support this legislation or at least one of these bills because

3 it would give you --- or do you want the legislation to limit

4 what species and capacity?

5 MR. HOUGH: As long as the bill --- if it's either

6 --- if the legislation regulates the species to coyotes,

7 woodchucks and foxes, that would be fine, or if the authority

8 is given to the Board of Commissioners to regulate that, we can

9 do that.

10 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: So I guess to be clear,

11 here, either one of the bills, doesn't matter to you, but you

12 want it to be specified that you or the Game Commission has the

13 authority or else the statute makes it specific?

14 MR. HOUGH: Correct, correct.

15 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Okay. And I know that for

16 our other guest that you have with us, I think he might have

17 been part of research that was done in the past and possibly

18 ongoing that shows basically in hunter incidents --- let's say

19 hunter accident type incidents, in so many areas being the

20 southeast, southwest has been mentioned, it's actually been

21 proven that more accidents, correct me if I'm wrong, have taken

22 place with a shotgun and not a rifle; isn't that correct?

23 MR. GROHOL: Yes. That study was done a number of

24 years ago in the southeast area of the state. We researched

25 whether rifles or shotguns there was a higher incidents of

SARGENT'S COURT REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (814) 536-8908 43

1 damage to homes or injuries to hunters, and we found out that

2 that was not the case.

3 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Yeah. I appreciate that.

4 I'm very familiar with that. I come from the Southeast as you

5 very well know, so I think that was important to be clear about

6 that, so --- especially other members here that many not be

7 familiar with that study and/or that controversy sometimes that

8 rises. So thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you, Mr.

9 Chairman.

10 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

11 Maloney. Questions from any of the members? Representative

12 Kortz?

13 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

14 Thank you for your testimony, sir. Followup to Representative

15 Maloney, he talked about in any legislation you would want from

16 that excluded traditional deer, bear, turkey and elk. Can I

17 infer from that that the Game Commission is predisposed to ---

18 if we would give you House Bill 366, that you would be against

19 us --- or you would --- would there be a vote --- would you be

20 predisposed to have a vote on your commission to not allow for

21 deer hunting, or is that a bad assumption?

22 MR. KLINE: I don't think ---.

23 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Or would you want to hold

24 hearings and take the ---?

25 MR. KLINE: I don't think it's a bad assumption. I

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1 think the Board of Commissioners would want to start out

2 conservatively on which species they were allowed to hunt with

3 semiautomatic firearms and that coyotes, woodchucks and foxes I

4 would think --- where they would be looking at that to start

5 out with. See how that goes and I'm sure we would get requests

6 to move --- you know, expand the number of species in the near

7 future.

8 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay. So you would follow up

9 and maybe have some additional public hearings or inputs just

10 to --- and maybe modify it?

11 MR. KLINE: Certainly. Certainly. Yes, I'm sure

12 they'd be open, you know. Traditionally, the Board of

13 Commissioners are very traditional individuals, and you know,

14 and hunting in Pennsylvania is a very traditional sport. Fair

15 chase is very important and I think a lot of the commissioners

16 feel that that's still extremely important. But, you know,

17 they did vote on supporting semiautomatic rifles, and the vote

18 was --- they were --- did support that.

19 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Okay. Thank you. Thank you,

20 Mr. Chairman.

21 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

22 Kortz. Representative Moul, followup question?

23 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

24 Do you feel that --- do you think that the Board feels that

25 semiautomatic rifles used to hunt big game would give the

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1 hunter an unfair advantage?

2 MR. KLINE: No, not necessarily. I think it's the

3 traditional aspects of hunting. And also, we do have concerns,

4 we've heard --- you know, it's not a --- not all hunters want

5 to see the use of semiautomatics, and not all landowners do,

6 too. And we've heard from some landowners that basically have

7 told us that if this legislation passes, that they're going to

8 post their property to any type of hunting. So we have a

9 concern about that, that some of our land that's now open for

10 hunter access may be closed in the future.

11 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: See, that makes no sense to

12 me. And the reason that makes no sense, and we heard it

13 earlier, that --- and myself included, if I've got to literally

14 shift my body to do that pump action as opposed to staying

15 right on target, I've got more chance with what we can use

16 today of that bullet going somewhere I don't want it to go. So

17 it makes no sense why a landowner that would say if you let

18 semiautomatic --- because I can fire just about as fast with a

19 pump as I --- close. So it makes no sense. If they're worried

20 about stray bullets flying here, there and everywhere, I would

21 think they --- the landowners would want them to stay on target

22 as opposed to shifting the weight of their body and throwing

23 lead or brass or whatever it is that they're throwing here

24 there and everywhere.

25 I can't make that compute. That argument doesn't

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1 compute with me, and I go right back to one of the things that

2 we as hunters stand by --- and believe me, I've tracked animals

3 'til the wee hours of the mornings. We don't want wounded

4 animals, and if this lowers the amount of wounded animals to

5 get away and die at a later date, why would we not want to go

6 with this?

7 MR. KLINE: Well, I would agree. I think that the

8 problem with some of our landowners is the perception of the

9 use of semiautomatic rifles, not what reality is.

10 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: We have to educate them.

11 MR. KLINE: Right.

12 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: That's your job.

13 MR. KLINE: Yes.

14 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Thank you.

15 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative Moul.

16 Representative Miller?

17 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Chair, and

18 thank you for your testimony. Just a quick question. We heard

19 previously about an organization that some of its members were

20 divided. Can you describe, was it a total rejection of 366?

21 MR. KLINE: For --- I was not at that meeting, for

22 their meeting of the Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs.

23 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Okay.

24 MR. KLINE: Are you talking about ---?

25 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Your testimony ---.

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1 MR. KLINE: The Board of --- the Board?

2 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Was that you would prefer

3 that 366 would --- well, 223 would be what you would prefer; is

4 that correct?

5 MR. KLINE: We don't prefer either one, as long as

6 we have the authority to regulate. As long as we have the

7 authority to regulate, we're fine. We really don't have a

8 preference. And we --- they didn't actually vote, the Board

9 did not vote on either 223 or 366, they voted on the use of

10 semiautomatic rifles for hunting. And part of that was they

11 were --- they would be in favor of that if they have the

12 ability to regulate, like they do for, you know, everything

13 else, all other types of firearms, bows, crossbows, et cetera.

14 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: So no sentiment whatsoever

15 about either bill?

16 MR. KLINE: I think they felt that 223 specifically

17 gave the Game Commission the authority to regulate over 366. I

18 think they felt that 366 was a little too open when they read

19 that.

20 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Thank you.

21 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you, Representative

22 Miller. Matt, if I may, just a couple of questions. And you

23 had mentioned in answering Representative Moul, perception. I

24 mean, do you have any concerns about just the general public

25 overall with the perceptions of changing this law?

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1 MR. KLINE: Certainly, we do. And I think that

2 comes down to education. You know, we've had a lot of

3 discussions over this amongst the staff and amongst the Board

4 of Commissioners. There's some concerns, you know, that, for

5 example, if you're out hunting coyotes or out there at night,

6 you're not required to wear fluorescent orange, you're out

7 there in camouflage. Here comes the family down the road and

8 there you're getting out of your car dressed in camouflage with

9 a military type firearm. You know, we're concerned about that

10 perception, you know, and what that puts on hunters. Again,

11 it's an educational process, and you know, we're just going to

12 have to deal with, and we think we can deal with that.

13 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Okay. Just clarification on

14 your comment regarding the magazine capacity, it would be for a

15 total of five, not one in the chamber, and four either in the

16 magazine or the clip for a total of five?

17 MR. KLINE: Total of six. One in the chamber, five

18 in the magazine.

19 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Or a clip.

20 MR. KLINE: Correct.

21 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: And you're supportive of that?

22 MR. KLINE: Correct.

23 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Okay. What about for squirrels

24 and rabbits?

25 MR. KLINE: We have a concern with squirrel hunting,

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1 small game hunting, when you're shooting up in the air with a

2 --- for example, if you were using a 22 rim fire, multiple

3 shots. Although people use 22 pumps and 22 bolt actions, shoot

4 up in the air all the time. But just the multiple shots, we

5 have some hesitation on that, at least initially.

6 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Rabbits?

7 MR. KLINE: I would think we could do it for

8 rabbits. Then again, you know, it's something we could look

9 at.

10 CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Any other questions from the

11 members? Okay. With that, I want to thank all the testifiers

12 for coming today, your testimony. With that, no other

13 questions, we're going to go ahead and adjourn this hearing.

14 * * * * * * * *

15 HEARING CONCLUDED AT 12:01 P.M.

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