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CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT of ORAL EVIDENCE to Be Published As HC 371-I CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 371-i HOUSE OF COMMONS ORAL EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE POLITICAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM COMMITTEE DO WE NEED A CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION FOR THE UK? THURSDAY 28 JUNE 2012 PETER FACEY and LEWIS BASTON Evidence heard in Public Questions 1 - 59 USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT 1. This is a corrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee, and copies have been made available by the Vote Office for the use of Members and others. 2. The transcript is an approved formal record of these proceedings. It will be printed in due course. 1 Oral Evidence Taken before the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee on Thursday 28 June 2012 Members present: Mr Graham Allen (Chair) Sheila Gilmore Andrew Griffiths Fabian Hamilton Simon Hart Tristram Hunt Mr Andrew Turner Stephen Williams ________________ Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Peter Facey, Director, Unlock Democracy, and Lewis Baston, Senior Research Fellow, Democratic Audit, gave evidence. Q1 Chair: Thank you very much for coming, gentlemen. Forgive us for being a bit delayed. I stupidly raised the issue of House of Lords reform, which I will not do again. Peter Facey: I didn’t hear any howls. Chair: You didn’t have your ear to the door in that case. Peter, Lewis, welcome. Would you like to make some sort of opening statement to start us off? Lewis Baston: Okay, I shall make an opening statement. You have our written evidence. Thank you very much for accepting that. I shall give you a slight preview of the contents of the fourth general audit of British democracy, which is to be published soon. There are a number of problems that need addressing. The obvious one is the way that the asymmetric devolution has taken place, with increasing change taking place between the different levels and issues such as the fact that we may end up with such a thing as Welsh law, as opposed to English and Welsh law. There are a number of changes and unanticipated consequences of the way devolution has proceeded since we started out that need addressing. There is the issue of England as well—the nature of England, not only within the United Kingdom but its internal arrangements and the balance of power within England. We have a discussion about localism. We also have the decline in the foundations of representative democracy, and we have phenomena like the decreasing trust and decreasing engagement of the public in politics—so there are a number of serious issues out there. We should be open minded about the way in which one might go about addressing these issues—whether to bundle them all together into one big discussion or parcel them out a bit. In particular, the position of England is an interesting one. There may be a case for having a specifically English dialogue. I will come back to that if I may and if you are interested in questioning. Past UK practice has tended to involve elite-level arrangements: Speakers’ conferences on particular things, such as the relationship between the Commons and the Lords 100 years ago, boundaries in the 1940s—all these sorts of things. Elite-level settlements like that, possibly the day has passed for these. They do not seem to address the desire for participation and deliberation that exists. We have had directly elected forums on 2 two occasions in Northern Ireland; we have had a political opposition or civil society forum constitutional convention in Scotland; and we have also had a process of constitutional change through legislation and referendum. So we have all these processes that have been happening. Looking overseas, conventions have often been about either writing one from scratch after a revolution or independence or so on—obviously we are not in that position but there are many examples of that. Another one, which I think is increasingly relevant to the UK, is settling issues of intergovernmental relations between different tiers of government, each with an element of sovereignty. That has been the sometimes unhappy experience of constitutional conventions in Canada. There are also occasions where they have been given a special task, such as the Australian convention in the late 1990s. We are in favour of the idea of a convention. We think it would be useful. We think it would be good to involve the public in these issues. We are thoroughly open minded about the ways and means of doing this, what is discussed and whether it is general or specific, and we very much welcome the Committee’s interest in the subject and look forward to reading the report that will no doubt clarify a lot of people’s thinking. Thank you. Peter Facey: The United Kingdom is now over 300 years old. In that time, particularly in the last 20 years, the nature of that state has changed fundamentally. We have had a large amount of constitutional change, but it has always been changes to individual bits. We have not at any point sat down and had a holistic view of how this state, this country, is governed and how it is going to be governed going into the future. There is a danger that—rather like a kind of woollen jumper—you are pulling bits of it and actually what we are doing is fraying it. We have an opportunity now to have a look at the central questions of what is the United Kingdom for and how is it to be governed, and to try to join up the dots. If we do not do that type of process, then we are doing a process that is a kind of laissez-faire free-for-all, where individual bits will get pulled in individual directions and there will be no central overview of the nature of the state. I am a fan of flags, and particularly at this point where, logically speaking, that nice big Union Jack over there flying over Parliament could potentially not exist in three or four years’ time—I expect it will, but we are at a point in the history of the United Kingdom where we may end up having a completely new state where the Union Jack does not exist, and the United Kingdom as it exists now does not exist—I think it is an important point to look at what is the United Kingdom and why it is here. Q2 Chair: I have a logistical question that you can help me with, Peter. When the Committee sat down and said, “Well, we are obviously going to go to Scotland and hope to see the First Minister, and go to Northern Ireland and see Mr McGuinness and Mr Robertson, and we are already booked in to see the First Minister of Wales, shortly in Cardiff; and of course in England we are going to see—” and there was quite a long pause around the table. Who do we see in England? Peter Facey: I think that is one of the problems in a convention. Looking at the future of the United Kingdom, ultimately there is a blank in the middle that is called “England”. You basically have to see yourselves, or those of you who represent English constituencies, because effectively we have had processes to decide the constitutional nature or the futures of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but we have not had that process in England. The danger, if you simply waited for that process to happen in England, is England is 80% of the United Kingdom and, therefore, that would then affect the whole. One of the central questions is going to be: how do you represent the interests of the people who live in the 80%, in a way that gives them the same freedoms that the people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have, if they want them, and at the same time settle the issues that need to be settled in terms of the nature of the UK? It is like the Council of the Isles. Again, with Council of the Isles, if 3 you look at who is represented, my Mum, who is Manx, is represented. The UK Government is represented. There is nobody there for that kind of hole. You might as well have one of the old maps, which was kind of the world, and where England is, “Here be dragons”. It does not exist. I am not a classic English nationalist, but if we are looking at the future of the United Kingdom, you have to take into account the interests of the people who live in England. I think one of your big challenges will be: what do you do about that group? Maybe you have a session yourselves, where you sit down and you do it but ultimately that is one of your big challenges. Lewis Baston: Yes, I would agree with that very much. It is one of the reasons why, when talking about whether we were to have a convention, we ended up thinking about direct elections as a way of ensuring representation from England. For your own purposes, I realise that is not much help in the immediate term. Political England is an institutional vacuum, and I think we should fill it because, increasingly, it exists in the minds of people. In the immediate term, yes, English Members of Parliament and some local authority leaders—of course we have one region of England that does have regional government, i.e.
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