THEATRE ARCHIVE PROJECT http://sounds.bl.uk Dudley Sutton – interview transcript Interviewer: Adam Smith 28 January 2010 Actor. Brendan Behan; Lionel Bart; The Boys; censorship; Entertaining Mr Sloane; The Dutch Courtesan; The Good Soldier Svejk; The Hostage; Irish literature; language; The Leather Boys; Joan Littlewood; mime; Joe Orton; Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts (RADA); Royal Air Force (RAF); Theatre Workshop; A Whistle in the Dark; Youth Festival for International Peace and Friendship; You Won't Always Be on Top. AS: This is Adam Smith interviewing Mr Dudley Sutton on the 28th January 2010. Before I begin may I thank you on behalf of the University of Sheffield and the Theatre Archive Project for taking part in this interview. DS: My pleasure. AS. Thank you. Do you remember your first experience of theatre? DS: At prep school. I was pretty and I had blond hair and blue eyes and it was a boys only so I had to play the girl, which was very difficult and embarrassing and confusing. And then... amazing. I just absolutely loved it. Yeah, that was the first experience of it. AS. And did you see many plays when you were a young man? DS: No. No, I saw one play and that was in a very bad rep in Jersey... but I loved it. I loved the tattyness of it. All the things that my father hated most: the theatre was filthy, the actors were appalling... None of it mattered, it was just brilliant. And then I was an amateur actor in the youth club, and then I joined the air force and I was an amateur actor in the air force. AS. What did that involve? How did they organise that in the RAF? DS: Well any RAF base of any size is run like an English village in those days. With cricket, 'Jolly good cricket teams', and you had to do sport, which I always hated. I once got punished for reading when I was in the air force when I should have been out kicking some wretched ball around. And they have an amateur drama society mostly http://sounds.bl.uk Page 1 of 14 Theatre Archive Project with the officers, but I wasn't, I was a mechanic. I sort of went into the ranks out of spite as much as anything else, and also because I wanted to get away from the background that I'd been at school with. And I joined the amateur drama society and they were very patronising because you're not supposed to if you're a mechanic. But I happened to be rather better at it and they eventually sent me to the RADA. I mean, what happened - I'm trying not to digress, but what happened in the fifties was that as a result of the 1945 Labour government, the most radical government we ever had, the results of the education acts were beginning to come through. And we had what they sneeringly referred to as the 'Red Brick Universities', which you'll know all about, and there would be young Labour-leaning education officers in the RAF with commissions who would understand. And this bloke said to me... I said, 'I don't know what I'm going to do when I leave,' and he said 'Well everybody else knows! You're going to be an actor you twerp.' - 'Twerp' he didn't use, but 'twerp' will do for this! - And I said 'Well, how can I do that?' and he said 'You can apply to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art,' and I said 'I can't go anywhere royal,' and he said 'You're in the Royal Air Force aren't you, you twerp? So why don't you send them a letter by the Royal Mail?' and that's what happened. And I got in, and from the moment I stepped through the doors I hated every minute of it. We're back in the world of the officers and back in the world of the school prefect and back in the public school world and 'Who’s for tennis?' and I couldn't understand it. Very naïve, very confused… I'd learnt a love of English, English vernacular, English in the RAF. Fabulous, you know, and I understood the nature of swearing as not being bad language but being rhythm. But, you know, the middle class always wants to impose its linguistic view on everybody else, the usual stuff... I still fight that fight now. I did a film, you know, still fighting. And, erm, oh, I've gone off the track [laughs]... Oh yes, I was in the digs, with a bunch of us, and I burst in to tears and said 'I'm a student of something I hate!' - it was all 'Who’s for tennis?' and patronising the working class and [puts on stiff upper lip accent] 'Oh don't you worry, we'll sort it out,' [puts on stereotypical working class accent] 'Oh I don't know gov’nor'... [back to own accent] that sort of stuff, and someone said 'Well, why don't you go down the East End to the Theatre Workshop?'. I went down there. The moment I got off the tube and it was full of pollution, with the railway yards and the Yardley's perfume factory and these little half-doored two-up-and-two-down workers’ cottages – and I thought, 'This is brilliant,' you know? And I went to this really beat-up theatre, scruffy theatre, which I loved the moment I walked in. I paid nine pence or something, and I saw a production of The Good Soldier Svejk and oh jeez! You know, half of the problem with the education in England in my youth was that it was so Anglo-centric. They hadn't even bothered to look across the channel. And when I was in the RAF, on the edge of Soho, I found out that if you sat in a café in Soho everybody has read Sartre, every body has read Albert Camus, everybody had read, you know, all of those exciting European novelists and suddenly it is coming out in translation in England. The world is full of ideas except at that dreadful RADA. And The Good Soldier Svejk of course is European, it's full of ideas, it's full of jokes, cartoons, it breaks every theatrical convention without apologising for it, and that was it, you know. So, I worked in a Rock and Roll coffee bar and I hung out with Teddy Boys and hookers and these amazing West Indians that were selling spliff, you know, which was legal in those days, and I just hung out with my people and eventually I got fired from the RADA, thank God! AS. You got fired? http://sounds.bl.uk Page 2 of 14 Theatre Archive Project DS: Yeah, yeah. AS. What for? DS: They still send me letters saying 'Dear Graduate, can we have some money?'. I got fired, I should think, out of laziness really. Depression - you know you're in the wrong place and you don't know the answer until you see it and you hear your music, so to speak, and I heard my music: Littlewood. And I heard they were auditioning, and I was so certain that I'd heard my inner soul music, so to speak, that I walked on the stage in total confidence, gave the worst audition of my life, and got a job. AS. Do you just audition for a general position in the company or was it for a specific role? DS: Yeah, for a general... yeah, I mean, they did things that the RADA didn’t do, I mean, you know, they'd do improvisation and stuff, which nobody else did, they had movement classes in theatre, dancing. I loved dancing, I was a very good dancer. And that was heaven. Heaven and hell, because I needed lots of attitude beating out of me. AS. What was Joan Littlewood like? DS: A University really, a University, with all that that entails. The bad sides as well. She was very sentimental about the working class [laughs] as all the left are! I couldn't believe the language of Communists, I could not fucking - excuse me! - I couldn't believe it! That they could be so bigoted, so prejudiced, so narrow minded - you're back at square one! AS. Just from the other side. DS: Just from the - exactly. Exactly the other side. I mean, we know that Communism and Fascism are identical, you know, or at least Communism, Labour... And I was in despair, to be honest. And she kept attacking me for being - with some justification - 'middle class, arty and public school'- as if you could help any of these. As if these decisions were yours. You understand this. You know, and it was a very, very happy but also very unhappy time. AS. Do any of the plays that you were in at this time stand out in your memory? DS: Oh, all of them. I mean, we did what we call “The Scottish Play” - I can say it because we're not in a theatre, we did Macbeth - my first job was in Moscow, in Russia, after being booted out of the RADA a few months before. I thought, 'Fuck them'. http://sounds.bl.uk Page 3 of 14 Theatre Archive Project AS. Did you play Malcolm in that? DS: Every young actor has to suffer Malcolm - you can't do it can you? Have you done it? AS.