Saturday, February 18, 1956 LOK SABHA DEBATES
(Part 0—Proceedings other than Questions and Answers)
VOL. 1, 1956
(15^^ February to y d March 1956)
TWELFTH SESSION, 1958
(Vol. I contains Nos. 1 to IS)
LOK SABHA SECRETARIAT NEW DELHI CX)NTENTS jPart n Debates— Vol. I— 15th February 1956 to 3rd M arch 195®) - C o l u m n s JVo. 1. Wednesday, i^thFebruary, 1956 President’s Address ...... i— 18 Message from S p e a k e r ...... 19 Death of Shri N a t e s a n ...... 19 Question of P r i v i l e g e ...... 20—21 President’s assent to B i l b ...... 21 Motion for adjournment— Violations of Indian territory by Portuguese Armed Forces . 22—23 Papers laid on the Table ...... 23—26 Representation of the People (Second Amendment) Bill . . . 26 Securities Contracts (Regulation) B i ll ...... 26—27 Control of Shipping (Continuance) B i l l ...... 27—28 Daily D i g e s t ...... 29—36 JVb. 2. Thursday, 16th February, 1956 D eath^f Shri Meghnad Saha ...... 37—^3® Daily D i g e s t ...... 39—40 J^o. 3. Friday, ijth Februaiy, 1956 Motion for adjournment— Firing in M a n i p i u - S t a t e ...... 41—42 Papers laid on the T a b l e ...... 44—47 Committee on Private Members’ Bills and Resolutions—Forty*tbird Report. Life Insurance (Emergency Provisions) Bill .... 44 Sales-tax Laws Validation Bill ...... 44—45 Capital Issues (Continuance of Control) Amendment Bill . . 45 Life Insurance Corporation Bill ...... 45 Business of the House ...... 46—47 Question of Privilege ^ 47 Representation of the People (Amendment) Bill— Motion to consider as reported by Select Committee . 47—95 Resolution regarding Industrial Service Commission . , . 95— lor 106—50 Business of the H o u s e ...... 102 Committee on Private Members’ Bills and Resolutions— Forty-third Report ...... 102—06 Daily Digest ...... 151—54
jVo. 4. Saturday, iBth February, 1956 Business Advisory Committee— ' Thirty-first Report • >55 11
C o l u m n s
Tlcpresentation of People (Amendment) Bill, as reported by Select Committee— Motion to consider ...... 155— 60 Clauses i—29 ...... i6o—223 Motion to pass, as amended . . . . 223 Bar Councils (Validation of State Laws) Bill, as passed by Rajya Sabha— Motion to c o n s i d e r ...... 223—39 Clauses 1-2 and Schedule ...... 238— 39 Motion to pass, as a m e n d e d ...... 239 Voluntary Surrender of salaries (Exemption from Taxation) Bill—
Motion to consider ..... 239— 42 Clauses 1-2 ...... 241 Motion to pass as amended . . . 242 University Grants Commission Bill— ” Motion to consider Rajya Sabha Amendments 242—47 Indian Red Cross Society (Amendment)Bill— Motion to consider ..... 247—56 Clauses i—9 and Schedules I to III . . 256— 57 Motion to pass as amended .... 257 Saint John Ambulance Association (India) Transfer of Funds Bill—
Motion to consider . ; . . / 257— 59 Clauses 1-2 and Schedule .... 259—60 Motion to pass as amended .... 260 All-India Institute of Medical Sciences Bill— Motion to consider ...... 260—84 Daily Digest ...... 285—86
N o. 5. Monday, 20/A February, 1956
Death of Acharya Narendra Deva ..... 287—90 Papers laid on the T a b l e ...... 290 Motion regarding Thirty-first Report of Business Advisory Com m i t t e e ...... ago Release of two Members from detention .... 291 Motion on Address by the President ..... 291—402 All-India Institute of Medical Sciences Bill— Motion to consider ...... 402—31 -Consideration of clauses ...... 431—40 Daily Digest ...... 441—42 m
C o l u m n s - N o. 6. Tuesday, 2istFebmny, 1956 Paper% laid on the T a b l e ...... " 443—44 Prevention of Corruption (Amendment) Bill-r Opinions ...... 444 Messages from Rajya S a b h a ...... 444—46 Multi-Unit Co-operative Society (Amendment) Bill, 1956 . 446 Estimates Committee— Nineteenth Report ...... 446 All-India Institute of Medical Sciences Bill— Clause 9 ...... 447—53 Motion to pass, as amended...... 453— 60 Motion on Address by the President .... 461—566' Daily Digest ...... 567—70
JVo. 7. Wednesday, 22nd February, 1956 Motion for Adjournment— Incursion by Pakistan Army into Chhad Bet in Rann of Kutch 57«— 74 Papers*laid on the Table ...... 574— 76’ Committee on Private Members’ Bills and Resolutions— Forty-fourth Report ...... 576 Election to Committee—Delhi Development Provisional Authority 577 Motion on Address by the P resid en t ...... 577— 710. Daily Digert ...... 711— 14
N o. 8. Thursday, 2%rd February, 1956
Warrant for arrest of a Member ..... 715 Presentation of Railway Budget . . . 715— 41 Motion on Address by the President . . . . 741—845 Daily Digest ...... 847—48
N o. 9. Friday, 2/^tk February, 1956
Papers laid on the Table ...... 849 Message from Rajya Sabha ...... 849 Indian Lac Cess (Amendment) Bill ..... 849 Petitions regarding Report of States Re-organisation Commission 850 Control of Shipping (Continuance) Bill— Motion to consider ...... 850—89' Clauses a and i ...... 889 Motion to p a s s ...... 889—91 Capital Issues (Continuance of Control) Amendment Bill— Motion to consider ...... 891— 90a IV
C o l u m n s Clommittee on Private Members’ Bills and Resolutions— ^ Forty-fourth R e p o r t ...... 908-; 09 Indian Panel Code (Amendment) Bill (Insertion o f new section 170A) . 909 Indian Panel Code (Amendment) Bill {Insertion o f new section 437-A) 909 Proceedings of Legislatures (Protection of Publication) Bill . . 909—10 Motor Vehicles (Amendment) Bill (Std>stitution o f Section 65 etc.)— ' Motion to consider ...... 910—43 Demands for Supplementary G ra n ts ...... 943 Shri Kashi Viswanath M andir Bill— Motion to consider ...... 943— 54. ' Daily Digest ...... 955—56
Mo, 10. Monday, a’jth Februtuy, 1956 Death of Shri G^V. M a v a l a n k a r ...... 957—68 Daily Digest ...... 969—70
N o. 11. Tuesday, iQth February, 1956 Death of Shri Lalchand Navalrad . . . . , • 97i« Papers laid on the Table ...... 971—972 Message from the President ...... 973 Message from Rajya Sabha ...... 973 Indian Cotton Cess (Amendment) Bill ..... 973 Arrest of a Member ...... 973 Estimates Committee— * Twentieth Report ...... 974 Election to Committee— Central Advisory Committee of National Cadet Corps . . 974 Agricultural Produce (Development and Warehousing) Corporations > B iU ...... - 974— 75 XHapital Issues (Continuance of Control) Amendment Bill— Motion to consider ...... 975— 1030 Clauses a, 3 and i ...... 1030 Motion to pass ...... 1030 Sales-tax Laws Validation Bill— Motion to consider ...... 1031—80 Daily Digest ...... 1081—84 N o. 12. Wednesday, 2gth February, 1956 Paper laid on the T a b l e ...... io85 Committee on Private Members’ Bills and Resolutions— Forty-fifth Report ...... 1085 ■ecurities Contracts (Regulation) Bill . . . . . 1085—86 C o l u m n s Sales>tax Laws Validation Bill— ' Motion to c o n s i d e r ...... 1086— 1128 Clauses 3,3 and I ...... 1138—33 Motion to pass ...... ' . 1133 Business of the House . . . . . 1133—35 Life Insurance (Emergency Provisions) Bill— Motion to consider .... 1135— 75 Presentation of General Budget, 1956-57 . . . 1175— 1208 Finance Bill ...... 1208 Daily Digest ...... 1209— lo
JVo. 13. Thursday, 1st March, ig^6 Paper laid on the Table . .... 12 ii Estimates Committee— Twenty-first Report ...... 12 ii Business of thS House— Hours of Sitting ...... 1311 Demand^ for Supplementary Grants, i955'56 . . 1313— 1304 Appropriation B i l l ...... 1305 Life Insurance (Emergency Provisions) Bill— ' Motion to consider .... . 1305—38 Daily Digest . . 1339—40
JVo. 14. Friday, 2nd March, 1956 Paper laid on the Table . . . . . 1341—43 Messages from Rajya Sabha . 1342 Appropriation B i l l ...... 1343 Life Insurance (Emergency Provisions) Bill— Motion to c o n s i d e r ...... 1343— 1402 Committee on Private Members’ Bills and Resolutions— Forty-fifth Report ...... 1403—03 Resolution regarding Appointment of a Committee to examine Com- mtuiity Projects and National Extension Service Schemes . 1403—54 Resolution regarding Fixing a Target date for Plt)hibition . . 1454 Daily Digest ...... 1455—56
N o. 15. Saturday, y d March, 1956 ^ Motions for Adjournment . . . . . 1457—60 Paper laid on the T a b le ...... 1460 Statement regarding Printing errors in Finance Bill . . 1460—61 LOK SABHA D E S A W .... (Part II— Proceedk«« other th a n ' ' tS
155 156 LCMC SABHA account of the peculiair cifcumitances which existed at the time of the last Saturday, ISih February, 1956 general elections probably no party or organisation was ready enough to come The Lok Sabha met at Eleven of the forward to co-operate. It was a new task ■ Clock. and I do not want to blame anybody for it. I would request hon. Members [Mr. Deputy-Speaker in the Chair] not to start with the supposition that the Election Commission and all those QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS concerned with it will always be inclined (No Questions: Part I not published) not to take the help and the co-opera tion of any party whatsoever, and parti cularly parties in the Opposition. I will revert to that a little later. 11-00 A.M. My hon. friend Shri Kamath men BUSINESS ADVISORY CX)MMnTEE tioned about the fees which he thought Thirty-first Report were still being charged at the rate of Shri A. M. Thomas (Ernakulam): Rs. 50 for application for Ktting the I beg to present the Thirty-first Report name of a person who is entitled to vote enrolled in the register and to get it of the Business Advisory Committee. correctcd for the purpose. Yesterday without making full enquiries I deliber ately did not want to say anything which may not be correct, but now I find REPRESENTATION OF THE the position is this, that at the time when PEOPLE (AMENDMENT) the rules were first made the fee was BILL no doubt, as the hon. Member stated, Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The House Rs. 50 but in 1953 November the rule will now take up further consideration was amended and the fee was reduced of the following motion moved by Shri to Re. 1 for the application and Rs. 10 H. V. Pataskar on the 17th February, for the appeal. In the present rules that 1956, namely: are now again framed after the amend ment of those rules necessitated by the “That the Bill further to amend ordinance that was issued, I think the the Representation of the People amount of fee is the same. So, practi Act, 1950, and to make certain cally from 1953 onwards the fee is coniiequential amendments in the only Re. 1 for getting the name enrolled Government of Part C States Act, and Rs. 10 for the appeal. ' 1951, as reported by the Select Committee, be taken into considera Shri Bibhuti Mishra (Saran-cum- tion." Champaran); That should also go. The Minister of Legal Affairs (Shri Pataskiar): I shall only briefly refer to Shri Pataskar: To that I will reply the few points which were raised in the when I come to the amendments, discussion yesterday. because there are some hon. Members who probably do not want that anything As I clearly said yesterday, I am should at all be faxed to anybody. We sure that the Election Commission will will see to that. That will be a matter take the co-operation of whichever party which should be considered when the is available. Even after giving that amendments come. ■ assurance and pointing out to the hon. Members what the Election Commission As regards the qualifying date I think had said about the matter, I find that I have already stated what I had to. some people have expressed some mis There is no virtue ii\ any partipular givings in the matter. I do not think I date, whether it is March, &ptember can add anything to what I have already or July, but the point is as, I pointed out said except that I feel convinced that oh in the beginning, under article 326 of 1 —4 Lok Sabha 157 lUpMMnlation of tht 18 FEBRUARY 1936 PtopU {AmsnJmml) Bill I SB
[Shii Pataskar] Tehsildars or chief municipal officers. the Constitution a date has to I;i 9 Qxed. In big cities it is these people who are 1 am sure whichever date is fixed serving the Corporation who are better is certainly goin^to cause inconveni fitted for this work. That is why in ence to some peo^e who may be left new section 13 B we say : out. “The electoral roll for each Shri Kamadi (Hoshangabad): Less assembly constituency, electoral and less inconvenience. college constituency and council Shri Pataskar: Supposing this time constituency shall be prepared and we fix the date of elections in the month revised by an Electoral Registration of February or March. It may be that Officer who shall be such officer of a particular date may be more conveni Government or of a local authority ent from the point of view of the elec as the Election Commission may, tions to be held now. But this is a per in consultation with the Govern manent statute and the date we ment of the State in which the con now may not be convenient for the next stituency is situated, designate or elections or the elections after that. Any nominate in this behalf.” date that we may fix may in a certain Therefore, looking to the provisions contingency be advantageous to some that are made, 1 thmk the government and may be disadvantageous to others officers are likely to do the work, as who probably by that date might miss they have done in the past, more or being twenty-one years of age. So, I less quite satisfactorily. would only say that the Select Com mittee, after having considered every It is on account of our misgivings thing, has fixed the 1st of March. There about the position’ and role of the gov is neither any particular merit in it, nor ernment servants when they were the is it a thing which we can amend by agents of a foreign governn^nt that we changing one way or the other. I think have come to look upon them as it will not be of much use. bureaucrats, and we still continue to look upon any work that they are likely Another point that was made was to do, or any work that they are entrust about the Electoral Officers. The scheme ed with, in the same manner in which of things is that under section 13A, we used to look at it when they were Part II-A, we are now going to have the agents of a foreign government. But the following kinds o f officers. There I would like to point out on the con will be a Chief Electoral Officer for trary that if this work is entrusted to eveiy State. Generally I understand he proper officers of government of a good is of the rank of a Secretary or Dmuty rank in the new set-up of things... . Secretary of the State department. Then we have got the Electoral Registration Shri Kamath: ‘Proper officer’ means Officer for every constituency. Generally what ? yaking, such an officer will be a sub- divisional officer or some other officer Shri Pataskar: He should not be a from that constituency. Then we are man who has got some bad past or S o in g to have Assistant Electoral Regis something of that kind. tration Officers who are generally of a Shri Kamath: Not pro-Congress ? lower rank like Tehsildars or Mamlat- dars as they are called in some parts. In Shri Pataskar: That is exactly the hig cities like Bombay and Calcutta pro point to which I am coming. And I am bably these officers are generally offi not going to stop merely at that; he cers of the corporation itself. The choice should not be pro-Congress, pro-Socia will be made on the basis that they are list or pro-Communist and so on. We persons who ate best fitted to know and must take into account the fact that to do the work which is expected of there is a difference between the them. For instance, in the city of Bom servants of government in the past bay, instead of appointing somebody and the servants of government from the Secretariat, if there is an offi in the new set-up of things, cer who is connected with the Corpora that has come into force after tion itself, naturally he is in a better the commencement of the Constitution. position to do the work expected of him For, in the new set-up of things, it may under the Act. That is why we have be that today there may be a Congress also made the provision that the Elec government m power, but tomorrow or toral Regiitration Officer may be also a after five yean it may be that it is the servant of the local authority. In Socialist government m power, and the smaller areas we should app^nt only third day it nuy be the government of 159 KtprttmtaHoH (ff Iht IS FEBRUARY 1936 Pto^e {Ammdmnt^ BiU 160
tbe Ram Rajya Parlshad which will be Shri V. G. Dedipmde (Ouna): Many in power; we do not quite know. So. cases are there. 80 far as the government servants are concerned, there is this difference as Shri Pataskar: So far as I could compared with an ordinary individual. find, there has not been officially any case where anything wrong had been Mr. Depoty-Speaker i The hon. done. Of course, suspicions might be Minister has only said that he should there; but that is a different matter. not be pro-Congress, pro-Socialist and pro-Communist, but not that he should Shri V. G. Deshpandc: But the not be pro-Forward Bloc. authority to prove it is also the same. Shri ICanuth: Forward Bloc is now Shri Pataskar: With regard to the merged in P.S.P. rule-making powers, there was some criticism. I think there was probably Shri Pataskar: I was just trying to an oversight on the part of the Select give one or two illustrations. I would Committee. In the other Bill on which the seriously like to urp for the considera Select Committee have submitted their tion of the Lok Sabha, and particularly report the rule-making power has been of Shri Kamath ...... embodied in the proper form. I shall be prepared to 'get the relevant provision Shri Kam ath : I am all attention. in this Bill amended so that it may be Shri Pataskar t ___ that in the new ia the form in which we are trying to set-up of things, the government ser put it in the other Bills. vants who are at the top always think On the whole, I think, this Bill has that they are not necessarily the servants been well received by the Lok Sabha, of a party, for the party is liable to and I hope that it will soon be passed change. A s is the case in England or into law. other countries where probably demo cracy has been functioning for a long Mr. Deputy-Speaker : The question time, these servants are less likely to i s ; favour any particular party or to act in a manner prejudicial to the other “That the Bill further to amend parties, because after all, they are the the Representation of the People steadying element, and they have to Act, 1950, and to make certain perform their functions, whichever consequential amendments in the party may for the time being be in Government of Part C States Act, power. Therefore, in matters of election 1951, as reported by the Select etc. we ought to look upon these gov Committee, be taken into consi ernment servants from this new point deration.” of view rather than from the point of The motion was adopted. view that we adopted when they were servants of a foreign administration. Na Clause 2.— (Amendment of Section 2) turally, at that time, there was no ques tion or no possibility of any one section Mr. Deputy-Speaker : There is an coming into power, and there was no amendment to this clause, namely chance, as far as they could see in the amendment No. 14. near future, of their being subjects to Shri Kamath:. My amendment working under Shri Kamath or anybody reads : from the other side. But in the new set up of things, I think we should shed some Page 1, lines 7 and 8 omil 'in sub of these suspicions which we have section (1)’. inherited from the past on account of the sentiments associated with gov I just want to observe that In the ernment servants. That is what I would )rincipal Act, a copy of which is to be like to ur^e for yesterday I found that bund in the Manual of Election Law, a lot of time was spent in saying, this —I do not know whether it has been bureaucracy is die-hard and so on. amended since.... So far as election work is concerned, Shri Pataskar : It has been amended, we have not come across any single and therefore, it is correct, Section 2 case, nor has anybody been able to pomt has subsequently been amended by the out any case, where anything wrong had Andhra State Act, and therefore it is in reaUy been done. the proper form there. I think therefore the hon. Member need not move hit Sfarl Kamath I That is not correct. amendment. 161 Rtpratntatim qf the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PeopU (Amtndrntnt) Bill 162
Mr. Depnty-Spfaker There are, no reason now to 9mit refereqpe to, these Other ainei»diri3ritS' to' clS ^ e 2;“ The two sMtioiii from section 12 of the question is: prinj^ipaf A ct/ , “That clause 2 stand pairt bf ths'B ill.” There may anse exigencies or occa The motion was adopted. sions when it may be necessary to'make some ajteration in..the delimitatioo of Clause 2 mds added (o the Bill. constituencies. Therefore, therp is an overwhelming need for this provision. Clauses 3 to .6 . Secondly, as a result of the States reorganisation that will come into effect Mr. Deputy-Speaker : Since there in the near future, there will arise are no amendments to clauses 3 to 8, 1 occasions when it will be necessary to shall put them to vote together. alter the delimitation of constituencies, Shri Barman (North Bengal—Reserv both of Parliament and of the assem ed—Sch. Castes): I have to say some blies. thing on clauses 7 and 8. Therefore, there may be necessity of it in the near future because if con Shrl Kam ath : I would like to speak stituencies are reorganised ‘ before the on clause 7. next general elections come, occasions will certainly arise for delimiting con Mr. Deputy-Speaker t In that case, I stituencies again or making changes in shall put clauses 3 to 6 to vote. the constituencies that havie already been delimited under sections 7, 6 and 9. So The question is: I do not find any reason to eliminate “That clauses 3 to 6 stand part of the sections 6 and 9 from the operation of Bill." section 12 and take out the‘power of the President under that. I hope the hon. The motion was adopted. Minister will explain the position. Clauses 3 to 6 were added to the Bill. Shrl Kam ath : 1 would like to sup port the point of view that has been set Clause 7.— (Amendment of Section 12) forth by my hon. friend, Shri Barman, and also briefly referred to by me yes Shrl Barman : In clause 7, it has terday. I had given notice of an amend been provided that; ment in this context, but apparently because it sought to negative this clause, “In section 12 of the principal it is not in the list. I had suggested that Act, the words and figures ‘section clause 7 be omitted from the Bill. So 6, section 9 or’ shall be omitted.” it does not find a place in the list on the ground that my amendment sought The reason for this has been given to negative the clause. I really do not in para 9 of the Report of the Select see any reason why the reference to Committee, and it is as follows: sections 6 and 9 should be omitted "The Committee feel that there because, as I said yesterday, if the will be hardly any occasion before States are reorganised, not merely the the next general elections, for alter parliamentary constituencies but also ing or amending any order deli the Assembly constituencies, where a miting existing parliamentary or district or taluk or tehsil has been assembly constituencies formed broken up, will be equally affected, and under sections 6 and 9 of the prin there will be need to alter or amend the cipal Act €ind therefore references Parliamentary as well as the Assembly to these sections may be omitted constituencies. Of course, the Minister, from section 12.” replying to this argument yesterday, said that the Committee proceeded on My submission is that first of all it the assumption that there would be no is not contemplated that these two sec change in the status quo with regard tions referred to in section 12 which to the set up of States in India. But I gives the power to the Pfegidei^t to believe it should be taken for granted make any amendments to the orders that there will be some change, if not under s'ectiods 6 and 9 are only a tem at the end of this year, but certainly porary proposition. The ^rovipion in the before the next general elections, whe main Act has been ^ut in .there for all ther they come in 1957 pr 1?58 or even time to Come, that is, so long .as this later. Nothing is gained by deleting the Act stands. 1 do not therefore find any reference to these two sactiom^n section 163 Reprtsentation of the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PeopU {Amendmenl) Bill 164
12 of the principal Act. I would like to basis that at the present mbfnent we do know from the Minister what exactly not know the exact shape of things so is gained by it. I belieye notihing ■will'be far as the question of States reorgani lost by retaining the reference. to sec sation is concerned, and even when it tions 6 and 9 in section 12. I would, is done, what may be required' is not therefore, suggest that clause 7, of the that all the Assembly constituencies Bill which seeks to delete the reference throughout India will have to be chang to sections 6 and 9 in section 12 of the ed but there might be some change m principal Act be omitted.. I commend some parts. I think that could better be this proposition to the acceptance of the done not by resorting to these two sec House. tions—sections 6 and 9—which in their very nature, intention and abject are of Sbri Pataskar: There appears to be a temporary character, but by taking some misunderstading. Clause 7 of the suitable action under the Delimitation Bill proposes that the reference to sec Commission Act. Of course, if it be tions 6 and 9 in section 12 of the princi comes necessary to make any amend pal Act be deleted. Section 6 pves the ment, it should better be done in the Act po'ver to the President to delimit parlia itself so that there will be uniformity mentary constituencies. Section 9 simi in respect of the work regarding delimi larly gives that power to the President tation. It is solely from that point of to delimit the Assembly constituencies. view that the Select Committee has done The position was that at the time when it. I hope hon. Members will appreciate the 1950 Act was passed, the delimita that they thought that we need not con tion of constituencies in a proper man tinue to burden this Act with sections ner could not be expected to be com which were intended to fulfil only a pleted immediately. Therefore, as was temporary purpose and for which there done in many other matters, power was would now be no use so far as the Select given to tjie President by these sections Committee could think. So I think hon. to delimit constituencies. Subsequently, Members will agree that the reference in 1952, we passed the Delimitation to sections 6 and 9 in section 12 has Commission Act, and on the basis of been rightly omitted. that Act, constituencies have now been delimited both for the purpose of elec Mr. Deputy-Speaker : The question tion to Assemblies and for the purpose i s : of election to Parliament. "That clause 7 stand part of the Now, so far as the genera! elections, Bill.” to which my hon. friend, Shri Kamath, The motion was adopted. made a reference, are concerned, the Clause 7 was added to the Bill. delimitation has been doiie so far as matters stand now, and it was done Clause 8 was added to the Bill. under that Act. Therefore, in between Clause 9 .—Insertion of new Parts II-A the present constituencies will continue as they are. That is what is expected, and ll-B because when the general elections Shri Sadban Gupta (Calcutta South come, that will be more or less on the East) : 1 beg to move : basis of the delimited constituencies. Now, let us suppose that in the mean (1) Page 2, for lines 21 to 24 time States reorganisation comes—I substitute : would like to elaborate this point a little “(1) The Election Commission further because yesterday I was only shall appoint a chief electoral replying shortly. officer for every State.” (2) Page 2, lines 32 to 35 : Shri Kamath : Very good. for “who shall be such officer of Shri Pata§kar: Suppose States reor Government or of a local authority ganisation necessitates delimitation of as the Election Commission may, in certain Assembly or Parliamentary con consultation with the Government stituencies. The best thing will be not of the State in which Ihe consti to proceed under this power of the tuency is situated, designate or President which was temporarily given nominate in this behalf’, substitute to him, but to proceed under the Deli “who shall be appointed by the mitation Commission Act, if necessary, Election Commission”. even by making some amendments to (3) Page 2, lines 32 and 33— it. Therefore, I said yesterday that the Select Committee proceeded on this om it “or of a local authority”. 163 Rtprtttntalion Shri Kamath: I beg to move: in the State and can be designated with the consent of the Centre. Page 3, line 11— for “much" substitute “many”. Stari Sadhan Gupta : H e can be desig* nated with the consent of the Central Stall KiMuui Chandra (Mathura Distt.* Government; that is true. But our West); 1 beg to move: experience is that in these cases mostly officers of the State Government are Page 2, line 31,— designated and for good reason, because after “revised” insert “subject to it is these officers that arc connected the control of the Chief Electoral mostly with administrative work and Officer” . they are seized upon for the purpose of Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Amendments acting as Chief Electoral Officers. The m o v ed ; duties entrusted to them are duties which are more appropriate to officers of State (1) Page 2, for lines 21 to 24. sub Government and, therefore, officers of stitute — State Governments are so appoint “(1) The Election Commission ed or designated for this purpose. shall appoint a chief electoral offi Therefore, for all practical purposes, I cer for every State.” think, we can assume that they will more often than not be officers of the (2) Page 2, lines 32 to 35— State Government. Anyhow, whe for “who shall be such officer ther they are officers of the State of Government or of a local Government or the Central Govern authority as the Election Commis ment, it is a fact that they would be sion may, in consultation with the officers of the executive authority and Government of the State in which will not be strictly independent officers. the constituency is situated, desig In cases where there is a tussle between nate or nominate in this behalf,” rival ^oups—the ruling part^' and the substitute “who shall be appointed opposition party—in the matter of by the Election Commission”. registration of electors, where there will be pockets which will be opposed to (3) Page 2, lines 32 and 33— Government, as I have pointed out yes om it “or of a local authority”. terday, there is some chance of these (4) Page 3, line 11,— officers being tampered with by the executive authority if it is interested for “much” substitute “many”. enough and if the executive authority (5) Page 2, line 31,— seeks to bring pressure on the officers concerned, it will be very difficult for after “revised” insert “subject them to resist. Therefore, the Chief to the control of the Chief Electoral Electoral Officer and the Electoral Officer”. Registration Officer should be officers Shri Sadhan Gupta: The amend of the Election Commission and not of ments I have moved are designed to the Government at all. provide an independent machinery for I am quite aware, as I said, of the the registration of electors. By my first fact that enough work may not be found amendment, I seek to provide that the for them to occupy them whole time. Chief Electoral Officer shall be appointed But, if that is the case, I would rather by the Election Commission and nOt suggest that people may be engaged on designed or nominated by the Election a part-time basis, people who are not Commission from amongst officers of government servants may be engaged on the Government. As you had pointed a part-time basis by the Election Com out yesterday, the use of the word mission or, if that ii thought undesir ‘designate’ or ‘nominate’ would neces able, then, for the sake of a good and sarily mean that the officer concerned independent registration machinery I would be an officer who was working wou d even accept the position that they in that State: otherwise, it would should be appointed to do less work be idle td designate or nominate rather than, for the sake of economy, an officer who was not working take officers of the Government who in that State, and so could not be may be subjected to pressure. After all drafted in as a part-time servant. I am this registration is a very important quite aware of the objection that the matter. It is connected with a very vital work may not be enou^. matter. Therefore, the independence Mr. Deputy-Speaker: He may be a should be secured in preference tO all Ceritral Government servant working other considerations. 167 Reprtstnlatien Iht 18 FEBRUARY 1956 P»opU (Amndminl) Bill 168 With the same object in view, I have The new section 13 D says m line 2, the tabled amendment No. 16 which seeks electoral rolls of so much of the to empower the Election Commission assembly constituencies...... ’ I think to appoint the Electoral Registration the wora ‘much’ is not correct. My Officer also. The Chief Electoral Officer amendment is to the effect that the is entrusted with the supervision of the word- ‘much’ should be replaced by the preparation of the electoral rolls and word ‘many’. You do not say so much the Electoral Registration Officer is constituencies, you say so many consti directly responsible for the preparation tuencies as are in the Parliamentary of the electoral rolls. So, these officers constituency. should be as independent as possible of the executive pressure. Shri Ramcliandra Reddl (Nellore); May be a part of the constituency also. My third amendment, amendment No. 17, is moved with the very same Shri Pataskar: I will try to explain it. purpose but with a less ambitious object. Supposing there are 7 constituencies of If 1 fail in both of my other amend an assembly and we have a certain basis ments, then I would recommend my on the population and it may be that third amendment which is designed to instead of 7 there may be 6 full con exclude officers of local authorities. As stituencies and a certain part of the I pointed out already, local authorities seventh constituency. That is why the in our country are not all reliable; they word ‘much’ will be more useful. If are not all even democratically elected. you use the word ‘many’ then it will Therefore, it is very unsafe \o entrust mean only full constituencies. the officers of local authorities with the task of preparation of registers of elec Shri Kamath: So far as I am aware tors. a parliamentary constituency is a mul Sbri Ka&iath : I will confine my tiple of assembly constituencies, 5, 6, 7 remarks mainly to the proposed section or 8. In Madhya Pradesh it was 8. 13 D as per clause 9 of the Bill. We have already rule 23 in the old rules Shri Pataskar: As far as possible framed under the principal Act, that is, we stick to it. But if it becomes neces the Preparation of Electoral Rolls Rules, sary in a particular case, then, the word 1950. Rule 23 deals with this matter. I, ‘much’ has to be used. therefore, do not see why we should have this new provision here in view of Mr. Deputy-Speaker: When it is a the fact that a rule dealing with this parliamentary constituency it may mean matter is already in force. It is on page so much and if it is an as.sembly con 163 of the Election Manual. This, per stituency it may be so many. There haps, makes it a little more explicit. fore as between one constituency This rule is in force, and one of the and the other so much within grounds on this basis raised by my itself. The singular includes the opponent in my election petition case plural but so much will not be covered was rejected by the Tribunal and the by the use of so many. That is why ‘much’ is used in the place of ‘Many. superiour courts, precisely because this rule applied to that matter. “It shall be Even though ‘many’ is not used. When one constituency can be touched, other lawful to combine the preparation and publication.... constituencies may also be touched. After all, it is the language that should Mr. Depu^-Spenker: There is an be the handmaid to our expression. explicit provision here in the BiU. Shri Kamath: Then, I have just one Shri Kamatta : I said in view of this it other remark and that is with regard is perhaps unnecessary. to the proposed section 13-A, sub section (2). In view of the fact that in Mr. Deputy>Speaker; It must be there this Bill subs^uently—I would refer in the Act. The Act gives the power to frame rules. the hon. Minister to clause 24 on page 7—the Select Committee has deemed Shri Kamath ; The rules have also it fit to amend the provision and include got statutory force according to the in correction along with revision, here also terpretation of the Supreme Court. there must be a similar amendment. There must be a chief electoral officer Coming to my amendment, which is to supervise the preparation, revision a minor one, it deals only with a lingu and correction of electoral rolls. istic or verbal aspect of this provision. Although I have not given notice of an 169 lUprtstntation qf the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Peopli {^Amtndmmt) Bill 170 [Shri Kamath] everybody either in the local authority amendment in this regard, if it is ac or Local Government. On the other* ceptable to the House, it may be incor hand, it is . quite safe to entrust such porated in sub-section ( 2) of section 13- important matters to persons who know A, so that it may read— the subject well, who are acquainted with the locality and who will be able “Subject to the superintendence, to understand and discharge the duties direction and control of the Elec more properly. tion Commission, the chief electoral officer shall supervise the prepara With these remarks I oppose the two tion, revision and correction of all amendments given notice of by Shri electoral rolls in the State under Sadhan Gupta. this A ct.” Shri V. G. Deshpande : I rise to sup Shri Ramachandra Reddi : As port the amendments moved by my hon. regards the amendment moved by Shri friend Shri Sarlban-Ciupta. I think these Sadhan Gupta, 1 am afraid he has not amendments are very important from been able to look into the difficulties, the/point of view of the efficient func- mainly administrative, when these elec tioaing of democracy in this country. I. toral officers are to be selected. As a must very frankly admit that the way| matter of fact, no provincial officer can in which the Election Commission has be appointed A^thout consulting the functioned in this county has really Local Government. The amendment done, credit to our election law, and suggested by Shri Sadhan Gupta seeks theiri independence and impartiality to empower the Election Commission to have been above reproach during the appoint a ^ body straightaway either last general electiotn. But at the same from the Central Government Secreta / timHp must say thaathat cannot be said riat or from the Local Government Sec - of tnfe machinery worked Under it retariat. If it is a matter of appointing a within the States. ParticiJarly the return competent person for the purpose, the ing officers and otherJ lower officials, Commission must consult the Local including the electoral 'officers, cannot Government and find out the most com be given the praise which was bestowed petent person for the purpose. Other upon them by our hon. MinlsterJI for wise, the Local Government will be ab Legal Affairs. I think he completely solutely incapacitated from choosing the missed the point when he said that there i proper ^rson for the particular purpose. is difference between the bureaucracy f The objection seems to be that Local in the old regime and the bureaucracy Governments are likely to choose their in this democratic regime. I know ^ere own officers and as such they will be is difference, but the difference iifthat very partial to the government in power the bureaucracy under the old despotic at that particular period. But the usual rule knew that it could act impartially^ procedure is that a senior officer of the and nobody would touch them, whenf^ Government, preferably an I.C.S. or the bureaucracy has to work under LA.S. officer will be chosen for the Ministers who are not above reproach. purpose. They belonging to all India I do not blame the officers, lower orr' Services, one should not be too much higher and I know they are in an em suspicious of their capacity of being barrassing position. There are Ministers impartial. 1, therefore, oppose the am who \wjuld remove the officers, who endments that have been given notice would/not give them promotion, and of and spoken about by Shri Sadhan who would not put them in positions of G upta. higher responsibility, and so the officers are jput in an embarrassing position. \ It is, on the other hand, very safe to consult the Local Governments and We have come across instances where find out the most proper person suited the electoral officers have acted with for the purpose. As regards the local partiality. Complaints were j made, but authority being consulted by the Elec they were also decided by the Local tion Commission for choosing a compe Government, and, therefore, we could tent officer, especially in corporations not get justice. Had the otheiiBill been like Madras, Bombay and Calcutta, brought before us. at the same time, the local authority would be more com the duties and functions of ^ese chief petent to take charge of the preparation electoral officers would have (been dis of the electoral roUs than anybody cussed. Therefore, I want that in a chosen at random by the Election Com democracy, just as for the protection of mission. It is always not safe to suspect 11 the rights of the individual | from the 171 Representation o f the 18 FEBRUARY 1936 People iAmiuimenl) Bill 172 o ppression of the demoeratt&, imperia that the election is conducted properly lism, an independent ^diciaiy is neces and the Election Commission should be sary. At the same tiiSe;^ is my firm/ authorised to appoint the chief electoral opinion that for the efficient function officers. ing of dem ocracy and also for the effi cient functioning of the election machi nery, it is absolutely essential that just as we have got the Election Commis «fr 5. ^ sion, an independent and impartial body which has eyoked admirationlfrom all quarters, at least in every State there should be,jQne_^fficer who can supers r vise, co-' 6rdinate ' and see. that I all thd ^ work bf «lecti6heering is carried on in an impartial manner. And if this has to ^ t wk rqWt % TT ^ be achieved, I would go a step further f w I I and say that the Election Commission should have its own cadre and appoint electoral officers in every State from its own cadrcKlf that cannot be done, they may choose any judicial or administra t , 5ft % tive officer from a State and he should be appointed and not nominated or ^ TT iWt^ ^ ^ — designated as provision has been made for in this law. What happens is that ^ ^ ^ fpTiTR ^ 5W t- an Under Secretary or Secretary is TT t I ^ ^ designated or nominated as a chief elec toral officei* and is not appointed. We r go through the law of England we find that the electoral machinery is composed f t?¥ ^ ^iTTTlfhCfvnw VTifiW I ^ of not only Government officers but even non-officials who are respected by '»iiM ’^5’Tyflc t ? r ts # s fd^Tir f f r I could see that the Government *TRT 3THT =?Tf^ I ^^TTtt 5ft ^ «P^ ft: officers were human beings and when they got an impression that a certain ipr ^ TT jrr ^ w r j thing done to the advantage of a party in power may bring them some benefit ^ sfT?¥ I «n% T jn ? ¥ 7 or may keep them away from some harm it would be quite natural for them ? rjT 9X'fi 5ft ^ ^ fr ^ to toe the line of Government and act in FT# TT finm V R vtbt «ftr # such a manner that might give an impression to the opposition that they pk wrftRH^ % ^ t ??\t were acting for the advantage of the party in power. Is there any guarantee rTT^ ^ f ft: ^ » r a ^ % that the present party in power will q r 3jn^ flR ^ | i remain so for all times that many of the Members are banking that they «*i<4 ^ i)t Vli ^ft 5TW *rnft ? will remain in power till eternity. If we take into consideration what hap ^ *TRT 5rm ftf mfi^nr ^ni^ pened in connection with the SRC *T^!^ t HT *TRT 5TT^ ft: report and several other Government proposals there will be many who will * r ? i ^ t I f ?r i|5V be saying that in some provinces Congress will be a weakening force—a ^rf^ni^ Tr?m i I f?T w n ^ ^ force which will be tottering on its last # >TRr ^ ^ '^Tf^ I «nR legs—and some of the Opposition parties may come into power. It may T> «n Shri S. S. More (Sholapur): I have Shri M. S. Gurupaduwamy (Mysore): seen the amendments moved by my Next time itself. friend Shri Sadhan Gupta and I wonder whether the acceptance of these amend Shri S. S. More: If some parties ments will remove the grounds on are bound to come to power, it is quite which certain apprehensions are enter pcMsible th at when the Election Com- tained with some justification even by misyion is acting in consultation the Members of the Oppoution. If we with the State Government of those 175 Rtpru*tatim the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PiopU {^Ammdment) BiU 176 States, the officers may be re* so that we can give an effective chal commended by the State Govern lenge to the party in power either at the ments for being appointed or designated central level or State level. Unfortu or nominated by the Election Commis nately it is not the electoral officers who sion who may be favourable to that are helping the party in power to which particular party in power at the Centre you have the honour to belong but or at the State though the party in dissensions among the Opposition power at the Centre may be a different Group. We are playing to the advantage party. It is quite possible that the elec of the party in power. We put in so toral officer who is to supervise the many candidates with the result that the preparation, correction and revision of votes are split up. I will give you the the electoral rolls and other arrange figures given by the Election Commis ments may be between the devil and sion. 45 per cent, of the voting was given the deep see—one party may be in office to the Congress. Out of the total elec at the Centre and another in office torate only 51 per cent, went to the at the lower level, State level. This con polls. Out of this 51 per cent, only 45 flicting force working upon him will per cent, voted for the Congress and as ensure his impartial acting. far as Parliament is concerned with 45 per cent, of the voters going to the polls Shri V. G. Deshpaode: False position. the Congress was given 74 odd as the number of seats that they captured. That Shri S. S. M ore: My friend says that is, the minority of voting is given the it is a false position. I know Shri majority of seats and the party in Deshpande is a better judge of false power does not represent the majority of position. (Interruption). But my feeling the electorate voting in the country but is that the best course for the opposition only 45 per cent, of the 51 per cent, of parties and those who have a faith in the total electorate. The whole electoral democracy is not to find fault with an system is responsible for this and not electoral officer here or other subordi the electoral officer. nates there but to develop a strong and united Opposition in the country itself so that there shall be a nice balance of So, two things are necessary. We jower and the officers will be able tp must have a complete overhauling of udge that if they are trying to be fav the electoral system in this country. I ourable to a particular party it is quite may mak^ a request to you, Sir, and likely, more than 50 per cent, likely, through you to the Speaker to take the that the party may be challenged in its initiative because in England whenever power by some other party which is the electoral system had to be reformed also developing equal strength. If that the Speaker took the lead to appoint a sort of an assurance is conveyed and if committee. In 1918 the Speaker those conditions arc created by which appointed a committee and a conference this sort of fear will operate on their was held of that committee to make minds then automatically the smooth certain suggestions. In 1924 another working, the impartial working of the Speaker took the initiative and appoint whole machinery shall be guaranteed to ed a committee and the Speakers’ Con us. ference made certain suggestions by way or recommendations to the Government. 12 N o o n . In 1944 another Speakers’ Conference was held and they subjected the whole Sir, I have some experience of the electoral system to a detailed scrutiny. opposition parties in this country. Un They made certain positive suggestions fortunately, the opposition parties are for being adopted by the Government. more rigid, more orthodox and more loving to live in isolation to each other I therefore, say that all these things than an orthodox person belonging to ought to be kept above party level and a caste which is supposed to be a supe it is the function of the Speaker. rior caste. It is for the opposition parties I would say on the analogy of what has . to come together. There are trends been done in England, to take the that way. Some of the parties initiative in this matter, take all the are carrymg on talks to develop one members of the different opposition par united group. When there are no ideolo ties into confidence and have a confer gical differences I think, in the inter ence in which this whole problem of est of democracy, it is to our advantage electoral reform shall be more to we that the Opposition is united on thoroughly and adequately gone into so a class basis, on one uniform ideology as to ensure that our electoral system 177 Representation o f Ihe 18 FEBRUARY 1956 People (,Ammdt7mU) Bill 178 [Shri s. s. More] control of the electoral registration offi shall see that the majority opinion la cers it has not been laid down anywhere the country is properly reflected both whether the electoral registration offi in the Centre and the States. I would, cers will be subject to the control of therefore, earnestly tell the hon. Mem the chief electoral officer. These offi bers of the Opposition that they are cers are all to be appointed by the placing a wrong emphasis when they Election Commission and it has been draw the electoral officers over the fire clearly laid down that the assistant of criticism by saying that they are electoral registration officers will be likely to be favourable here or favour subject to the control of the electoral able there. In this particular Bill they registration officer. It has not been laid are concerned only with the preparation down whether the electoral registration of the roll. The nnal judgment is with officers will be subject to the control of the electorate. The electoral officer has the chief electoral officer. There is a no influence on the electorate. Simply general clause that he will supervise the because A is enrolled on the register preparation etc., but I want that this that does not mean that the officer who should be specifically laid down. has enrolled A on the register has influenced on the voter himself. Mr. Deputy>SpeaI(er : There is an appeal to him provided in certain cases. Therefore, I would say that all of us, If they are subject to control then how in the interest of democracy, should rise can the appeal once again be made to above party considerations, some imme him 7 diate considerations advantageous here Sliri Krishna Chandra : There is only or disadvantageous there, and try to hold a general provision that he will super a democratic machinery which will vise. convey satisfaction and complete con Shri Barman : Sir, I CQuld not fol fidence to the future generation. low the hon. Members who had said that the Election Commission should di Shri Krishna Chandra: Sir, in this rectly appoint the chief electoral officer clause the chief electoral officer, the or, of course necessarily, the second electoral registration officers and the grade of officers, that is the electoral assistant electoral registration officers registeration officers also. These two have been vested with the, responsibi classes of officers are to be appointed out lity of preparing and revising the elec of the officers of the Government may toral roll. It has been laid down in be of the State so far as the chief elec section 13A(2) that the chief electoral toral officer is concerned, but necessarily officer has to supervise the preparation of the State so far as the electoral regis- and revision of the electoral rolls. Then, traion officers are concerned. the assistant electoral registration offi cers have to work subject to the con The suspicion of some hon. Members trol of the electoral registration officer is that, being officers of the Govern as laid down in section 13C(2). Now, ment they will be influenced by the by oversight it has been left out that Ministry. I do not know how the Minis the preparation and revision of the try can tell the officers or give them electoral roll which has to be done by the instructions to compile the electoral electoral registration officers under sec roll in such a way that only persons tion 13B(1) will be done subject to the who support the party in power will be control of the chief electoral officer On registered and not others. It is an the lines of the provision made in sec impossible proposition. Even to sup tion 13C(2) that the assistant electoral pose or suspect that is nothing but registration officers shall work subject something extraordinary. The main ob to the control of the electoral registra jection is that the chief electoral offi tion officer. My amendment is ...... cer is to be designated or nomi nated out of the officers of Gov Mr. Depnty-Speal(er : Is it not cov ernment. But, in order that we may ered by section 13A(2) which says: “the provide something in the law we must chief electoral officer shall supervise see as to its practicability. If the Elec the preparation and revision of a 1 elec tion Commission sitting at Delhi were toral rolls” ? so omniscient as to call out persons from each and every State, who are not Shri Krishna Chandra : T hat is officers of Government and who will be, there, but I want it to be more specific. adcording to their satisfaction,, impartial Whereas these assistant electoral regis persons and be impartial to the Gov tration officers will be subject to the ernment and the Opposition—even 179 Repratntation of the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PtopU {AvmdmaU) Bill ISO taking it as granted-r-we have to see to fear in this respect. We do whether the outsider who is being not like to involve the cotintry in an appbirtt^ as the chief electoral officer expenditure. that is unnecessary. They will ^ able to perform his duties with are evolving and proposing a method the help of the persons such as the which tc n*y niind will not be practical registration officers, the assistant elec for the Election Commission itself to toral officers, etc. He must be a person functidn in the way which my hon. who can command respect. We shall friends want the Commission to func have to see to the practicability of the tion. matter. He, though being an outsider, will have to work with the, assistance of Mr. Deputy-Speaker : I thought the Government officials, because we Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava wanted to cannot suppose that the Election Com speak and, in fact, I called him before mission will appoint a host of persons I called Shri Barman. Evidently he was from the chief electoral officer down to preoccupied. the assistant electoral officers and others, so that the entire machinery may have Pandit Thakur Das Bhanfava (Gur- no connection with the Government. If gaon) : I stood up. Sir. we have, out of necessity, to take the help of Government officials at any Mr. Dcpuly-Speaker : He was con level, then the chief electoral officer versing with his next hon. Member. He sitting at the top cannot revoke the is an elderly gentleman of the House. suspicion from the minds of my friends Their talk inside the House disturbs the there that everything is done without House and also disturbs hon. Members. any favour this way or that way. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava will pro ceed with his speech now. Apart frogi this consideration, this is simply a compilation of the electoral rolls. The main business remains 9 P T R ["tftn 3 1 ^ 0 WiT ^ ^ if ?T1t tT lIt*! «PT aft »n€f ^ flfFVTr ^ I ift f?nn^ h ?nTW t ^ Mifaftw »r »n^ *r? ^ t 5T^ I H *T^ 9W TT U t ^ i \ ?ft w % *rnr »t^ ir ^ ^ ^ ^ vt mfW ^ T^ 51 # sf ^ *pR i^ - 511^ iiT ^ PpiT, ftro 5R # t Pp ^ ^nf'TO^ <$■ aft T T ^ ^IT5R ^ c fk r ?T 11 ^ »R- I JTe[ ^ ^ ?T^ ^ ftr sWfe ^r, % *ftr ^ W rR ? % ♦«<- % «l»iH 'TT XtX fiPIT 5TFT % ^ ^ ITRTT t I w wnr % ftm % Tm ftr •PT^ t ?TT? ^< M t VT W T 5i^lr ^ I «r ^ I *inf >ft ^ ’STT 5 IW % *rTT >ft ^ ^ ^ ^ ?nt, t «FT5TT g I teftftnftiT? ^ ^ ^ 15ft ^ ^ i f r V t snftrspT f«T # I m feR nv^r< eft ^#f^tT5r Hr*11 5 ^ ^ *rt<. ^ ^ Iw l ^TT 4.fM^ t I ?l? t ^ q*i'«A' 5TH?ft t ^ I I ^ ^ Shri B. D. Pande (Almora Dislt.— North East): Mr. Deputy-Spcaker, I *FT^ *f ^ ^ t I have great respect for Opposition Mem bers, but if they say that honesty is ?R 5ft tT^^RPT VWRH t ^ confined to that small group and that t I ^ +4l!iM ^ ^ all our officers are dishonest and corrupt I will never concede it. In other V > 1 ^ itftr ^ % ^ * countries the Qpposition does not abuse all officers in this way. I can say that ftr ^inT «ii v7 I in my division in U.P. the elections have been conducted very efficiently and t «r^ v r m ^ ^ sTTftm impartially in a very elegant manner. We cannot think of manipulating the f w w t t . electoral rolls. No officer can. do it. It is an impossible task to manipulate and t ^ ^ ^ m r 51^ I bribe 17 crores of voters. If we were ?T»TT ^ * f t ^ ’ tft *st<4 M r. Deputy-Speaker: Nothing about Shri Patasfcar: I was a Uttle sur any hon. Member here. prised that this simple provision should have evoked such an amount of party Shri B. D. Piinde: It is not correct differences and heat and what not. The to say that my officers were partial. only point here is this. In sections 13A Shri N. C. ChatterjM (Hooghly): The to D we are making provision for chief hon. Member is continually saying, my electoral officers, and electoral registra Government, my officers are all honest. tion officers, and in 13D as to what What does he mean ? should be parliamentary constituencies. Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Perhaps the TTie main burden of the song was as to hon. Member is too conscious of the what should be the character and posi party. tion of these chief electoral officers. As a matter of fact, we said yesterday Md Shri B. D. Pande : Instead of my you yourself pointed out this. Section Government, I shall say, our Govern 13A sa y s: ment. The officers are all very efficient. The electoral rolls are prepared most “There shall be for each State honestly. I must say this of U.P. the a chief electoral officer who shall most progressive state in India. I think be such officer of Government as there is nothing to hurl these abuses on the Election Commission may,- in this side of the Lok Sabha as has been consultation with that Govern done. We are all one. We are honest. ment, designate or nominate in Whichever Government will be right this behalf.” will come into power. Whichever Gov ernment has the qualities to govern, So, the power to designate or nomi that will come into power. All the offi nate is with the Election Commission cials will obey. They cannot disobey. itself. Almost every one has agreed and Reference w^s made to the Chief Com has nothing to say so far as the work of missioner. He is also appointed by Shri the Election Commission is concerned. Jawaharial Nehru and Dr. Rajendra As I said yesterday, the Election Com Prasad. mission is an independent authority which has been created very rightly by ?ft «TT the Constitution. We have found that the work of the Election Commission has evoked admiration not only in this # 5fk ^ ^ ^ ^ I, ^ t country, but even elsewhere. It was a |TT I I fr t T?: stupendous task. For the first time in t I ^rrrr the history of the world, on account of adult franchise, 18 crores of people, almost about that number, had to be Angels will not come from heaven to registered, rolls prepared and all that. I work. We are to govern. If there are do not say that there may not be any dishonest officers, they ought to be mistakes anywhere. But, it must bo brought to book. If there is dishonesty, admitted by all concerned that the instances ought to be given and remedied machinery which we devised, apart from in the place where there is dishonesty. any party considerations, has worked Here to say that they are all dishonest wonderfully well. Particularly in view is not courtesy. That is not civilisation. of the fact that this was the first time That is too much. I have great respect when an experiment on such a colossal for the Opposition leaders. We are going scale was made anywhere in the world, to concede every dignity to them. We it has really evoked admiration not only are trained to that nature. We have all here, but outside also. People, particu fought for the liberty of the whole larly those who are starting with ideas country. We cannot condemn any party of establishing some sort of parliamen and throw them out of the Lok Sabha. tary democracy look to what we have They have every right as I have. We been able to do as a matter of guidance have not that power and we will never which they should try to emulate. In do it. We will bring them into our these circumstances, I think there need fold. We will do everything to bring not have been so much of heat and them to the path which Mahatma party considerations, introduced in a Gsmdhi has laid. That is what I say. simple matter like this. However, I will Criticism ought to be well-balanced, and not deal with that. I would urge not like saying, all the world is dishonest upon hon. Members to consider Md I am the only honest man here. dispassionately whether the provi That position I cannot concede. I have sions as they have been made, in the nothing more to say. light of the way in which they have 2—4 Lok Sabha. 189 RtpnstnUUitm r f th* 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PtopU {AmmJmenl) Bill 190 [Shri Pataskar] I think correction will come under already worked, are right or not. I would this. say that probably if they get rid of the obsession of belonging to a parti Mr. Deputy-Speaker:_ _ _ •: In In another cular party, maybe in the minority or lace, the hon. Minister______will see . that majority, they will find that the provi Eoth the words, correction and revision sions which are proposed to be made are used. If only ‘revision’ is used every here are quite adequate, simple and where, it may include correction. straightforward. Shri Kamath: It is on page 7. With respect to designation and nomi nation, I think it has already been con Shri Patasiuir: I would like to ceded that they have got a special invite the attention of the hon. Member meaning. These are the very words to section 22. This relates to correction which are used in the existing Act. As of entries in electoral rolls. I said earlier, we have got chief electo ral officers for every State and these are, “The electoral registration offi naturally, persons who are of the rank cer for a constituency, on applica of a Deputy Secreta^ or Secretary of the tion made to him for the correc Government. I believe that that should tion of an existing entry in the be continued. Particularly in a country electoral roll of the constituency, where there was so much display of shall, if he is satisfied after such party feelings in respect of the represen enquiry as he thinks fit, that the tatives of the people themselves, I entry relates to the applicant and is believe that we have followed a very erroneous or defective in any parti healthy practice that is followed in the cular, amend the entry accord United Kingdom, of leaving it in the ingly.” straight and safe hands of the services. I think that is included. I f you read Even in the great United Kingdom the new section 22 with this, there where this system of parliamentary should be absolutely no difficulty, and democracy has been working for so we need not go on adding words. many years, the steadying factor is the Mrvices. Parties and party considera Shri Kamath: Read 24. tions may vary. But, the services' per form the .functions of a steadying ele Shri S. S. M ore: The effect will be ment. In view of all that has been since the Select Committee has added said on both sides, I need not dilate on correction and addition to the prepara this. T am sorry I am unable to accept tion at page 7, it is quite likely to be any of these amendments which have interpreted that the Chief Electoral been moved for the simple reason that Officer has not been given the power no amendments are needed for a matter of correction, but only revision. which has been so ably put at the instance of the Select Committee. They Mr. Deputy-Speaker; The hon. have carefully considered eve^ matter. Minister may kindly refer to page 7, We have already discussed it thread clause 24. bare from every point of view. I hope hon. Members will pass this clause as Shri S. S. More: That will have to it is. be accepted. Shri Kamath: What about correc tion ? Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It reads : Mr. Depnty-Speaker : The hon. Mem “In section 28 of the principal ber Shri Kamath said that in addition Act,— to powers of revision, there should be (a) in sub-section (2), for clause power of correction also. (h), the following clause shall be substituted, namely:— Shri Patasliar: I do not think it is necessary. I have examined this. You ‘(h) the revision and correction will find, section 13A(2) says: of electoral rolls and inclu sion of names therein’.” “Subject to the superintendence, direction and control of the Elec At the time of introducing the Bill, tion Commission, the chief electoral the Minister might have thought that officer shall supervise the prepara revision included correction, but by tion and revision of all electoral way of abundant caution the Select roUs... Committee have added correction also. 191 Rtprtsenttttion o f the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PeopU {Amndmtnl) Bill 192 Shrf Pataskar: I do not mind since Of course, I have heard patiently in (h) we have added the word “correc since yesterday some references being tion”. made to some Chief Electoral Officer of a particular State. The best course Shrl K. K. Basu (Diamond Harbour): would be not try to change the law, but Before you put it to the House may I to bring these matters to the notice of seek an assurance from the hon. Minis the Election Commission in whom we ter? We understand members of the all have confidence. I am sure they will Civil Service are to be appointed Chief do the needful if at all there is an;^hing Electoral Officers. If the officer which requires some correction, etcv appointed is from a different State then it IS all right, but if he is an officer of Shri K. K. Basu: We are not chang the same State, he should be made a ing the law. He may be an officer of whole-time officer. He should not be a the Government. He might be appointed Joint Secretary of the Home Ministry for three years as Chief Electoral Offi and also Chief Electoral Officer at the cer. Once he is appointed, he is under same time. He should be a whole-time the Commission and he has another job. officer, not doing any other administra The only point is the question of tive job of the Government, because he money. We may have to spend some has much closer liaison and relation Rs. 5 or Rs.* 6 lakhs more. When we ship with the Government of that State are spending so much for the elections, in the other case, and though he may that will not come in the way. be a very just and good officer, it creates a feeling that he is influenced by the ruling party. Mr. Deputy-Speaker; Very well. I will put the amendments to the vote of Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We are only on the House. the electoral roll. The question is: Shri K. K. Basu: We have expanded Page 2,— the functions and powers of the Chief for lines 21 to 24 substitute : Electoral Officer. If he is a part-time “(1) The Election Commission officer, he does day-to-day work as Joint shall appoint a chief electoral Secretary of the department and also officer for every State.” functions as the Chief Electoral Officer. We should make him independent of The motion was negatived. the executive and he should work under the Election Commission. Mr, Deputy-Speaker: The question IS: Shri Pataskar: It has to be noted in this connection that the Chief Elec Page 2, lines 32 to 35— toral Officer, under the new section for “who shall be such officer of 13A(2) will work subject to the superin Government or of a local autho tendence, direction and control of the rity as the Election Commission Election Commission to expect that he may, in consultation with the should be an independent officer solely Government of the State in which devoted to this work, I think, is not the constituency is situated, desig necessary also. From the enquiry made, nate or nominate in this behalf.” it seems there is hardly enough work for him. Pandit Thakur Das Bhargava substitute “who shall be ap was saying that we should start a cadre. pointed by the Election Commis That is not the idea at all. The officer sion." is only concerned with the preparation of electoral rolls. When we come to The motion was negatived. some more powers, we shall consider whether we should give those powers Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question to him or not. That is a different mat i s : ter. So far as the purposes of this Bill are concerned, I think the Chief Elec Page 2, lines 32 and 33— toral Officer has to perform certain very simple functions, and that also he om it “or of a local authority”. has to perform only under the sup The motion was negatived. ervision and control of the Election Commission. And the third ground is Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Amendment there will not be enough work for him. No. 18. Shri Kamath. 193 Rtpristnlation of the. 18 FEBRUARY 1955 PtopU {AmendnufU) Bill m Shri Kamath: I do not press that. It Shri BIbhuti Mlshra i I beg to move: is a verbal amendment. Page 3,— Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Amendment after line 28, add : No. 8. Shri Krishna Chandra. “(c) any person who complietes his age of 21 years just on the Shri Krishna Cbandia: Not pressing. date of calling to the constituency may be enlisted as voter, if he pro Mr. Deputy-Spealur: Have both the duces a certificate of his qualifying hon. Members, Shri Kamath and Shri age of 21 years to the electoral Krishna Chandra, the leave of the registration officer of the constitu House to withdraw their amendments? ency." Hon. Members: Yes. Shri Sadhan Chandra Gupta: The amendments were, by leave (1) Page 3,— withdrawn, for lines 25 to 28, substitute : “(b) ‘qualifying date’ in religion Mr. Dep^'Speaker: Regarding to the preparation or revision of •‘correction”, in view of the fact that every electoral roll under this part, the hon. Minister is willing to accept means the 30th day of September it, Shri Kamath may move a formal of the year following the year in amendment. which it is so prepared or revised.” Shri Kamath: 1 beg to move: (2) Page 3, line 27— Page 2, line 27— for “1st day of M arch” substitute for “and revision” substitute “ 1st day of October”. , “revision and correction”. (3) Page 3,— Mr. Deputy-Speaker : The question after line 28, add : IS: “Provided that nothing con tained in this Act shall be deemed Page 2, line 27— to prevent the preparation of an for “and revision” substitute electoral roll on a date earlier than “revision and correction”. the qualifying date.” The motion was adopted. Shri Kam ath : 1 beg to move : Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question (4) Page 3. line 27,— is : for “M arch” substitute “July”. “That clause 9, as amended, stands part of the Bill.” Mr. Deputy-Speaker : Amendments The motion was adopted. moved: (1) Page 3,— Clause 9, as amended, was added to the Bill. for lines 25 to 28, substitute : “(b) ‘qualifying date’ in relation Clause 10 was added to the Bill. to the preparation or revi.sion of Clause 11.— (.Substitution of new section every electoral roll under this part, for section 14) ' means the 30th day of September of the year following the year in Shri Bansilal (Jaipur): 1 want to which it is so prepared or revised.” speak on clause 11. (2) Page 3, line 27— Mr. Deputy-Speaker: First of all, let for “ 1st day of M arch” substitute me dispose of the amendments. “ 1st day of October”. (3) Page 3,— Shr] Bansilal: I want to oppose clauses 11 and 13. after line 28, add : “Provided that nothing contained Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Very well. I in this Act shall be deemed to pre am coming to it. First of all, let me vent the preparation of an electoral dispose of the amendments. I will give roll on a date earlier than the him an opportunity. qualifying date.” 195 Rtpristniation of the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Ptople [ATiundnunI) Bill 196 Page 3, line 27— , ^ f3R% ^ T WfK If *fy^ , for “M arch” substitute “July". ITT ?ftw jft5T ^ T?: | i ^ nfVir Shri Bibhoti Mishra: I will also give in d ip f r nft an opportunity to the hon. Member who wants to oppose all the amend HI*T (h W ^ ^ •T^ Vlft- ments and both the sections. ^ «rf^ ^ ^ Ir •ft fiW : Jrft T? 3 n t t I 'HTT JT? VK vinyiR ^ mwrorr I if? it? t fiwr 3TI^ ^ 5ft ^ ^ f*TJ arrWt I Ji? m'VTTiw ^rr^ n x t • ^ JT i^ >P#rr Pf 5iif fWR2x ?n?5r ?H«Pt ?’^h5n: ^ ^ I s t n f w % ?TT*r^ ^ Shri Sadhan G upta : My amend ^ I fft ^ »TT>r >T ments to this clause are designed to make sense of the right of franchise 3TTin JTeft 'TT tRfTfirorfn i z \ jjt# which a citizen enjoys. Now, what is provided in this clause by the definition T # »rf I I ^ f> rr 1 1% ? # - of ‘qualifying date’ is that the qualify Tt?f ^ sttctt 5 ing date should be the 1st of March m the year in which the electoral roll is 5Pmt UT WR«ft ^ Hie restriction to such an early date is grossly unfair to the citizen, because ^ 5l#ifV I fRTTt ^TtTTT ^ ^THRft in practice, it will mean that in elec tions, and particularly in general elec t ^rftfiTR # ^ ji? ^ ^ tions, a large number of citizens will ^r»ft *rKf*T^ff spt fsRSfft *r^f«rr ^ be deprived of their right to vote, although they would have reached the ^ ^ srnft t MTrM^mdlP=)»R VTlrfW T age of 21. An electoral roll obviously would be finally published sometime ^ 'Jiiflt ? I *T *f ^PT^fidl ^ Pf> in September or October. It is provided pr ^ sm r taken place in the meantime. So, while the electoral roll would be published in Page 3, after line 28, add : September or October, the registration “(c) any person who completes will be with reference to a date which his age of 21 years just on the is about six months earlier. date of calling to the constituency, may be enlisted as voter, if he pro We all know that the general elec duces a certificate of his qualifying tions are likely to take place in this age of 21 years to the electoral country sometime in January or registration officer of the consti February, perhaps more likely in the tuency.” beginning of middle of February. Already when the electoral roll comes into force, it will be about six or seven ^ 'n ^ - months out of date, but particularly hrift % *17*1 rVi4ii ^ WI when a general election takes place, the electoral roll would be about a year out ^ t, *nr If T*T ^ of date. 197 RepresentatioH of Ihe 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PtopU {Ammdmtnl) Bill 198 [Shri Sadhan Gupta] allow everyone who will come of age We know very well that in our during this period to exercise the right country a population of about 3i crores of voting. And that may be a very rea is added every ten year. So, as a matter sonable period which will keep the elec of fact, we can expect that about 35 toral roll absolutely up to date, suppos lakhs of people will come of age every ing we accept 21 as the age at which year for the purpose of voting. So, about people are entitled to exercise their 35 lakhs of Indian citizens will be dep franchise. rived of the right of voting, under the procedure laid down in this clause. That is why I have suggested in my first amendment that the qualifying date Therefore, what I would suggest is to may be the 30 day of September of make the qualifying date a date subse the year following the year in which the quent to the preparation of the electo electoral roll is prepared. ral roll. And I would like to show that the Constitution does not stand against Mr. Deputy-Speaker : As in the case it. In my first amendment, I have pro of income-tax law with respect to mar posed an altered definition of ‘qua ify- ginal income-tax up to Rs. 100 and so ing date’, which is that ; on, can it be said that on the qualify “ ‘qualifying date’, in relation to ing date, all those persons shall be re the preparation or revision of gistered who are only 20 years and 6 every electoral roll under this months, so that a short time before the part, means the 30th day of Sep election (which may take place one year tember of the year following the hence) they would have completed the year in which it is so prepared or age of 21 and therefore be entitled to revised.” cast their votes? If that is done, then not only those who have completed 21, My object is that everyone will have but those who have completed 20 years the right of vote, who will come of age and 6 months also may' be rSgistered. within a year after the electoral roll 1 .P.M. comes into force. What the Constitution requires is Shrl S. S. M ore : Something like that really not that a person should be 21 can be devised. for the purpose of exercising the right Mr. Deputy-Speaker: T hat can be of voting, but that he should be 21 on done. a date to be named for the purpose of being registered as a voter. Now, there Shrl Sadhan G upta : T hat is what I is no bar to naming a subsequent date am suggesting. from the date of registration. I would not suggest that the date should be lixed Mr. Deputy-Speaker : Is it dilHcult to a^ter a long period so as to perpetrate find out who is 20 years and 6 months? some kind of fraud on the Constitution, but I would suggest that people who Shrl Sadhan Gupta: As I read arti would come of age within the year dur cle 326 of ithe Constitution, there is no ing which the electoral roll is supposed bar to it. to be in force or is likely to be in force, should be allowed the right of voting. Mr. Deputy-Speaker : There is no bar, not that he is not eligible to be put on If you like, you may provide that the register. The difficulty will arise people who do not reach the age of 21 when there is a bye-election or some on the date when the electoral roll comes election immediately. Then there will into force may be shown in a separate be two different rolls. part of the register, and the date of their coming of age may be separately indi Shri Sadhan G upta : The constitutional cated, for that is very easily done by provision is very peculiar. What it says having a column to show the date on is that a person ihall be entitled to be which they come of age. And you can registered as a voter, if he reaches the provide that they will exercise their votes age of 21 on a date to be fixed by law. only when they actually come of age. It does not say whether the date shall be But I do not think that is even neces- earlier than the date of registration or 8 ^ under the Constitution. It is sufR- later than the date of registration. To cient to name a qualifying date after obviate any controversy on this point, I the date of registration, a qualifying have suggested amendment No. 20 date which falls within a time during where instead of 1st March, I have which the electoral roll is in force, and suggested the 1st of October. I have 199 RtprcsnOaHon o f tht 18 FEBRUARY 1956 {Anmtdmtnt) Bill 200 suggested it for this reason: the section force immediately; otherwise, there is of the Act provides that an electoral roll no pu^se in it. If election b to take will be in force up to the 30th day of place in January, what is the meaning September. From the 1st day of Octo of waiting till the next October? It will ber, a fresh electoral roll would come be infructuous and useless. Therefore, into force. There is no difficulty in fix so far as corrections, revisions etc. are ing the qualifying date as the 1st day of concerned, they must come into force October so that everyone who would as and when the orders are passed. The come of age on that day the electoral same thing is extended to the final pub roll is in force would be eligible to vote lication of the electoral rolls. for the year during which the electoral roll will remain in force. Shri S. S. M ore : Publication has re ference to the preparation of rolls ac Shri Pataskar : May 1 sav one thing cording to the proposed section 21. But so that the discussion will be a little in the case of revised rolls or corrected more clarified? The existing section 24 rolls, they come into force automatically says that every electoral roll subsequently the moment a correction or revision is prepared under this Act shall come into made. force on the 1st day of October. That date was fixed at that time. Now what Shri Sadhan Gupta: In any case, I has been done—and very rightly—is think the Constitution does not bar the this. In section 21 (1) we say : registration with reference to a subse “The electoral roll for each consti quent qualifying date because, the right tuency shall be prepared in the of franchise follows from the right of prescribed manner by reference to registration and it is not conferred by the qualifying date and shall come the Constitution. into force immediately upon its final publication in accordance Mr. Deputy-SfKiafcer: All the stages with the rules made under this of this Bill must be completed before A ct.” 1.30 P .M . The hon. Member will bear it in mind. This fact may be taken note of by hon. Members when making their com Shri Sadhan G upta : Yes. ments. This is the difference between Therefore, I would suggest the accept the provision in the Act and the pro ance of either of the two amendments I posed provision. have moved. Mr. Deputy-Speaker : The small As regards amendment No. 22, it is period that has to elapse for the pre only by way of clarification. I need paration of rolls can never be avoided hardly state that the register may be under any circumstances. Therefore, if prepared earlier than the qualifying it should be the 1st day of October, date fixed. there is some force in that, but as soon as it is finalised and comes into force, Shri Kamath : I listened very care the inconvenience of a small period of fully to the speech made by the hon. three or four months cannot be avoid Minister in his reply to the earlier dis ed. cussion. One remark that he made struck me as rather strange, and that Sbrl Sadhan G upta: I quite see that. is when he said that there is no virtue In that case, I would rather advocate a in any particular date. I might state provision to the effect that the electoral in the same way that there is not much roll in each year should come into force virtue in perhaps about much of the on a certain date and the qualifying date legislation also that we put through here, should be fixed in relation to that date. considering the spate of amending Bills that come one after another. Even as Shri S. S. M o re : It will not be pre regards the Constitution, we have had pared every year. so many amending Bills. But I hope the Minister will agree that in this Welfare Shri Sadhan G upta : It may be revis State, which he is supposed to promote, ed. Even in revision, registration will even though there may not be much have to be done with reference to the virtue in a particular date or a particu qualifying date. lar legislation, there must be as little inconvenience as possible to as many as Mr. Deputy-I^peaker: Whenever a possible. I say this because he said correction is made, it must come into that any date ^at might be fixed will 301 lUpnsmdalim of tht 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PeofU {Amendmtnt) BUI 202 [Shri Kamath] year but some by-elections there may cause some inconvenience. But you be at some other time and so on and should fix such a date as will cause as so forth. I think it is a salutary re little inconvenience as possible to as commendation of the Election Commis many people as possible. In the light sion that general elections in the coun of this, I have read the dissenting Mi try should be held simultaneously nutes of my hon. friends, Shri S. S. throughout the country and in so far More and Shri H. N. Mukerjee, and I as our country is concerned, these am inclined to agree with the observa months, January to March are the best tion of Shri S. S. More that considera months for general elections. They are tions of administrative difficulties should the Winter months; the monsoon is ruled not be the sole criterion. My hon. out completely; from May to Septem friend, Shri H. N. Mukerjee, has point ber no general election can be held— ed out in his Minute of Dissent: even by-elections cannot be held during these months—but, particularly, De “1 learn that in the United cember to March would be normal States a prospective voter coming months for a general election in our of age even by election day is per country. We are all agreed on that mitted to be registered”. point that these are the best months for general elections—whether they are held 1 do not know how it is done. I in 1957 or 1958 or any subsequent would have liked Shri H. N. Mukerjee year. Therefore, considering that the to enlighten us on this point. If that general elections will be held only in is feasible, if that is a practical proposi January, February and March, there tion, we can certainly have it here. should be enough time for this work of preparation, revision and correction, Shri S. S. More t Let him read and if they fix a date it may be the 1st some reference book on electoral law in of July and not the 1st of {Jlarch. the United States. Shri KBmath: There is no time for it Shri Bansllal : I have very carefully now. Shri H. N. Mukerjee must have gone through the report of the Select read some book on that. Shri S. S. More Committee and 1 must say at the outset was also on the Select Committee {In that I am obliged to the hon. Members terruption). I would be glad if we are Shri Mukerjee and Shri More who have told how that is done in the United given their minutes of dissent so far as States. But if that is not possible, I sug clauses 11 and 13 are concerned. I think gest acceptance of my amendment No. these clauses are very unhappily word 21. Instead of the 1st day of March, we ed. It seems that taking advantage of should have the 1st day of July as the article 326 of the Constitution—‘every qualifying date. person who is a citizen of India and who is not less than twenty-one years of Shri U . M. Trivedi (Chittor): Why age on such date as may be fixed’—tak 1st of July ? ing advantage of these words, a date is fixed whereby the roll is to be final and Shri Kam ath : As 1 said yesterday, the qualifying date is mentioned in this July to January, 6 months, is more than BUI. enough for an efficient administration— that is however an assumption that I This age of 21 years is a very blessed have made that the administration is age. The sons and daughters of our efficient—and if that is even reasonably motherland look to that age, that period' efficient, six months will be more than of their lives when they will be entitled sufficient for the preparation, revision to vote. As soon as an Indian comes and final publication. I'would prefer of that age, he should be given the faci even a later date, September or Octo lity and opportunitjr to cast his vote and ber, but from the little experience that I take part in shaping the country’s fu have had of administration I would ture. Here, just to avoid an adminis have 6 months. trative difficulty, a qualifying date is fixed that it should be the 1st of March. Pandit Thakur Das Bharrava (Gur- Of course, nobody can deny that there gaon): Six months before election and must be some period so that the electo not before the issue of the notification? ral rolls may be finalised. That does not mean that any arbitrary date such Shri Kunath: The point made by as the 1st of M arch should be fixed. It the hon. Minister was that we are going is just possible that elections may not to have them in February or March next take place as envisaged after the 1st •203 Rtprucntalion of the 13 FEBRUARY 1956 PeapU (AmoMlmetd) BUI 204 o f March. It may take another one year trary date has been mentioned in this. or more. What will happen to those There is no use simply amending the persons who have come of the age of 21 electoral law. If we amend it we must years? They will have to wait to get amend it so as to give the greatest faci their names entered. May I ask the hon. lity to our citizens. Minister what is the reason whereby lakhs of our young men who generally 1 submit again that so far as this elec- take part in the elections—it is men of torai law is concerned, no administra the ages of 21, 22 and 23 who are more tive difficulty should come in our way enthusiastic than any other age group and it cannot do any credit to any ad to take part in elections—are made to ministration which, on account of diffi wait? They must be given the facility culties, small or great, denies the right and opportunity to cast their votes so of vote to any citizen of the country. that they may feel some satisfaction My submission is that earnest thought that they are shaping the country’s should be given by the hon. Minister future. to these amendments and he should agree to whichever amendment will best The hon. Minister will agree that suit the purpose. Otherwise, I think it there is no sanctity behind this 1st of will be unjust. An electoral law should March. As my hon. friend has just be very simple and should give as much observed we cannot take it that the facility as possible. As pointed out by elections will be held according to sche Shri Mukerjee in his Minute of Dissent, dule. It may be possible that the in America even if a citizen qualifies by general elections may not take place. attaining the necessary age by election All these persons will have to wsiit. The day, he is permitted to be registered number of persons who come of age in and some such procedure can be evol a particular year I feel, will be lakhs. ved here also. The citizen, who has I may say that so far as a particular attained the requisite age, goes before constitueniSy is concerned, the number the magistrate and takes a certificate to will not be much. Out of 75,000 votes, that effect, and it is not even necessary for this age group it may be 1,000. It that his name should be on the electoral is not difficult to include these 1,000 or rolls. If he simply holds a certificate 500 persons who have come of that age that he has qualified himself to be a in that period. So, I submit that this voter because he has come of age, that qualifying date— 1st of March—is abso is 21, then he should, by right, be lutely arbitrary and the Select Commit entitled to vote. tee has not given thought as to what it ought to be. There may be some rea On this age of 21, there is a lot of sonable period but that does not mean conflicting opinion in the country. I that 1st of March should be fixed. No think that 21 is rather on the high side. reason whatsoever is mentioned in the Does any man wait till he attains the report as to why it should be the 1st of age of 21 for the purpo.se of marriage? M arch and not' 1st of April or l.st of But for voting you require that he should May. My submission is that instead of wait till he completes the age of 21. a particular date, it should be a parti There is a vast amount of opinion that cular period which will prccede the the age of 21 fixed for this purpose is «lectiori. very high. It is a question of amend ment of the Constitution, I know, but I think that many of the amendments in my opinion, it should not be more are to this effect. I think wc should than 19 or 20 at the most. Even after not take it that all those amendments 21 years, the man will have to wait for which are tabled by the opposition are another one year because of this quali without any force. I have gone through fying day provision. As soon as that the Select Committee report and the blessed date is over, he feels that he is arguments that have been advanced. A entitled to vote. This will create a lot large number of our young men are of discontent in the younger genera looking forward to this Bill and I . am tion who will curse this Lok Sabha by -suiprised that the consciousness is not saying that proper care was not taken •sufficiently aroused in our country. to give them their right of vote. What Otherwise, they would have raised their are we to reply to our sons and ■voices by now—those who are going to daughters who are anxiously looking come of age during this period. Lakhs forward to exercise their vote? Take of our sons and daughters will be dep the case of my eldest daughter. She rived of their right and they will have worked for me in my election and she to wait for one year because an arbi was 80 full of enthusiasm to enquire of 203 tUpresmtatim o f tht 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Peopli {AmndmeM) Bill 206 [Shri Bansilal] Shri Bansilal: No lacuna should be me as to when she would have her right left to remain when we frame a law. A of vote. I told her to wait till she reach citizen acquires the right of being en ed the age of 21 years. But now as rolled on account of the fact that hfr soon she reaches that age, I will have to ordinarily resides there, but the words tell her, "Unfortunately enough you “ordinarily resident” are not mentioned are not 21 years on the qualify anywhere else or defiuied. In my opi ing day fixed for the purpose.” There nion, this expression should have been fore, with all the force at my command, defined somewhere. I request the hon. Minister to think over the amendments and the sugges Pandit Thakur Das Bhaisava: Th& tions that have been made. words ordinary residence are given in the Civil Procedure Code, section 20 Another point that I would like to and in many other places. The canota- draw the attention of the House to is tion of these words is fully known to this. In clause 13, the words “ordinari lawyers. It does not necessarily mean ly resident in a constituency” are used. 120 or 180 days. The words “ordinarily Although I have very carefully resident” are used in law. It is an ordi gone through this Bill, I do not nary expression in law and appears in know what is the meaning of many Acts. “ordinarily resident” (Interruption). It has not been defined as to what should Shri Kam ath : He is also a lawyer. be the period for which he should be I think. ordinarily resident in the constituency. Shri Bansilal : Then, I think we have not improved upon the Act in section Mr. Deputy-Speaker : An ordinary 19. We have rather confused matters by citizens is entitled to vote if he has a not defining the expression “ordinarily h o u se .. . . resident”. , Shri Bansilal : He acquires the right Shri U . M. Trivedi: M ay I seelc of being enrolled in a particular consti your indulgence for a minute? We have tuency on so many factors and residence got a provision in clause 11, that is in is one of them. I do not know whether section 14, for the qualifying date. In 180 days ought to be taken as a reason the new section 21 that has been pro able period which will give him quali posed in clause 15, there is a proviso fication on account of residence. Here to sub-section (2) of section 21, say the words used are only “ordinarily ing— resident”. “Provided that if for any reason the electoral roll is not revised in Shri Altekar (North Satara): It is any year, the validity or continued defined in section 20. operation of the electoral roll shall not thereby be affected.” Shri Bansilal : But still what should The cumulative effect of these two' be the period for qualifying oneself on sections would be this. One attains the the basis of residence has not been age of 21 on the qualifying date, say, stated, and this is a lacuna. 1st March, 1956. But if for some reason the electoral roll for 1956 is not revised, Shri Pataskar : Every adult must be that man even when he attains the age entitled to vote. of 22 in 1957, will not be allowed to vote. For some reason or other if the re vision does not take place, even if he Shri Bansilal : Then why this resi becomes 24 years of age, he will not be dence qualification should be there at allowed to vote. I think that some pro all, I do not know. In that case, any vision must be made whereby if a man voter may go and say “I am here; attains 21 years on the qualifying date, please take my vote”. his name must be included in the pre paration of the electoral roll, without Mr. Deputy-Speaker ; A pilgrim from any revision on an application being Uttar Pradesh goes to Rameswaram made to the effect that he has attained' and his name has to be entered there the age on the qualifying date. on the polling day and he must be a bona fide resident there; he must own Mr. Deputy Speaker : The hon,. a house or be a resident there ordina Member will kindly see that it is not re rily. vised as a whole and it will continue,. 207 Rtpnunlation of tht 18 FEBRUARY 1936 PiopU Umemhunt) Bill 20S T hat is all that it means. Therefore, Atizen of India and who is not less after every qualifying date, it is open to than twenty-one years of age on him to get his name included by way of such date as may be fixed in that correction. He can go and state that he behalf by or under any law.... ” is 21 or 22. What is such a person entitled to? He is entitled to register himself as a Shri U. M. TrivedI: Under what voter. The Constitution provides that provision? everyone who is a citizen and who has completed the age of 21 years on a date Mr. Depoty-Speaker : Correction un which should be fixed by law shall be der section 21. entitled to have his name registered as a voter. Whatever date we fix, those who Shri U . M. TrivedI; That would be complete 21 years between the date fix an omission. But my humble suggestion ed and the date of election are going to to you will be that this is not an omis> be excluded. The only point is as to sion but is an addition of his name. On whether we can make any improvements the 1st M arch he becomes qualified and so that the number could be reduced as he is therefore entitled to be entered in low as possible. A number of births the list and that could be entered only take place every day. Can we at any in the revised list. If the revised list time predict what will be the number is not published, he will not be entitled of persons who will attain the age of 21 to be entered in the list. That is why I between the date which we are going to suggest that some provision should be fix by law and the date of election? It made to meet this contingency. is an uncertain factor. Supposing we are able to fix the election date and say that Mr. Deputy-Speaker : Not only such the elections in India will be held on a corrections can be made on the ground particular date, then also it would be that his name was omitted though he possible to make something. By refer had on the first qualifying date attained ring to that date we shall fix a date as 21, but his name ought to be included near to the date of election as possible. because he has attained the age in the But that also is not possible under the next qualifying date.... Age also must existing circumstances. How can we fix be one of the considerations for cor the date of any general election for all rection. times to come? In the very nature of things there might be so many contin Shri Pataskar: Section 23 gives the gencies. The other method of having right to a person of this nature to go some fixed dates is not available to us. and apply and get his name entered in Therefore, we are placed in this diffi the register. culty under the Constitution. Naturally and very rightly the date has to be fixed. Shri U. M. Trivedi: He has attained I do not want to make light of the fact the age of 25 years; he ought to have that we should try to minimise it to the been included. lowest possible number. But so far as I have been able to think out, we cannot Shri Pataskar : I attach the same im fix the date on which the elections must portance to people of any age, whether be held and there is also another diffi it is 21 or anything else. 1 do not regard culty. We have no means of seeing that that there is anything blessed as 21 or persons will be so born that between 40, and many hon. Members are 25 these two dates they will not attain years of age. the age of 21. In the circumstances Shri U. M. Trivedi: Then make it 25. some date has to be fixed taking into consideration the time for elections, etc. Shri Pataskar : The only question is and arrangements have to be made. It as to whether as my friend Shri Kamath is not only from the point of view of pointed out, what we have done is administrative convenience at all. Admi capable of further improvement so as to nistrative convenience should not be reduce the possibility of hardship being given the first place; I agree with the caused to some people. The difficulty non. Members there. Some date has is like this. Article 326 lays down. to be fixed as required by the Constitu tion. If I had been convinced that a “The elections to the House of suitable date could be fixed so-that the the People and to the Legislative number affected would be the lowest, I Assembly of every State shall be on would certainly have accepted. What the basis of adult suffrage; that is the point of preventing somebody who is to say, every person who is a is entitled to this? I very carefully and 209 ReprtsintaHon e j the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PtopU {Amnimmt) Bill 210 [Shri Pataskar] * Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question patiently followed the speeches of the is : non. Members but they should also Page 3, after line 28 add : take this difficulty of mine into conside* ration. These are the factors which we “Provided that nothing contained cannot get over. in this Act shall be deemed to pre vent the preparation of an elMto- Reference was made to the American ral roll on a date earlier than the Constitution. There it was said, some* qualifying date.” thing was done. 1- have not studied it. The motion was negatived. There is probably no provision as our article 326 and we do not know what Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question their machinery is; I am not aware of is : all facts. So far as India is concerned, 1 Page 3, line 27 for think it would not be safe to say that even at the time of election if somebody “M arch” substitute “July” comes and produces his age certificate The motion war negatived. he should allowed. It cannot be done on practical considerations. I am Shri Bibhud M ishta: I beg leave to aware of a certain case in my district withdraw my amendment, No. 9. where a person was prosecuted for The amendement was, by leave, with having produced a false certificate drawn. though the certificate was a certified one. That sort of complications arise. Our Mr. Deputy-Speaker : The question law is that he should be of a definite i s : ^ age on a particular date and his name “That clause 11 stands part of should be on the electoral roll. Taking the Bill.” all these factors into consideration, 1 think the Select Committee has come to The motion was adopted. the very right conclusion. I do not mini Clause 11 was added to llie Bill. mise the importance of the point stres sed by the hon. Members but still I am Mr. Deputy-Speaker : I shall now put inclined to think that we have not been clauses 12 to 17. able to find out a solution better than Shri Kam ath : Yesterday, there was a the one which the Select Committee has short notice question, and then some ultimately found. I would, therefore, papers were laid on the Table. We appeal to the hon. Members to withdraw Started at about 12'15 or 12'20 as the their amendments with all my sympathy record would show. It was agreed that for them because 1 cannot accept their we would discuss this for five hours. amendments and to allow the clause to According to that we have got some remain as it is. more time. Mr. Deputy-Speaker : Now I shall put Mr. Deputy-Speaker ; There are other the amendments to the vote of the matters also. House. The question is; Shri Kam ath : Clause 15 is an impor Page 3— tant clause. for lines 25 to 28, substitute — Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Various hon. “(b) ‘qualifying date’, in relation Members referred to clause 15 and other to the preparation or revision of clauses also. 1 am very sorry. It is every electoral roll under this part, now nearly 1’40. The other day we means the 30th day of September spent about 2i hours and today more of the year following the year in than 2i hours. Yesterday we started at which it is so ‘prepared or revis 12 and went on till 3 p.m. ed’.” The motion wax negatived. Shri Kamath: We went on till 2-30 after that there was private Members’ Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question business. is ; I Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Then we shall Page 3, line 27 for go on upto 2 o’clock. Hon. Member wants 15 more minutes. “ 1st day of M arch” substitute “1st day of October.” Shri Kamath i Thitt is a fair alloca The motion was negatived. tion. 211 Rtpnsmtation o f tht 16 FEBRUARY 1956 PeopU {AmndmaU) BUI 212 M r. Dcputy-Spcaker: 1 will put the 10 and 11 are not moved. Hon. Mem other clauses to the vote of the House. bers may be brief. Two minutes each Clauses 12 to 14- were added to the Bill. and 3 minutes to the hon. Minister. Clause 15— (Substitution of new sec Shri Sadhan Gupta: Mr. Deputy* tions for section 21 to 25). Speakar, 1 am proposing two amend ments to this clause. The first is to omit Mr. Deputy-Speaker : Now, are there lines 24 to 26 on page 4 which pro-> any amendments? Hon. Members may vides that if revision is not made the move them if they want. previous electoral roll will remain in force. I am strongly opposed to this Siirl Sadhan G npta : I beg to move : allowance because there is no reason (1) Page 4, om it lines 24 to 26. why the electoral rolls should not be revised every year. Already, as wo (2) Page 4, after line 36 insert — have seen in the course of the discus sion on clause 13, there is the danger “21 A. Assistance of political of disfranchising a lot of people. The parties to be taken in preparation hon. Minister has expressed sympathies and revision of electoral rolls .— with this but has pleaded his inability “The chief electoral officer, every to remedy this evil. Therefore there isi electoral registration officer and no reason why the revision should be every assistant registration officer dispensed with even by implication. So, shall take such assistance as may I am seeking to omit that proviso. be given to him by all politick parties recognised by the Election My second amendment No. 27 is Commission and by such other or mure important than the first one. ganisations as such officer may think fit in the matter of prepara Mr. Depoty-Speaker: We will assume tion or revision of electoral rolls there is some disturbance, some floods and shall afford each of them all or some other difficulty. Is the hon. reasonable facilities for rendering Member telling the Government that such assistance." they ought not to take shelter under the proviso? It is one thing to do away Shri Kamath : I beg to m o ve: with the proviso. We will assume that (1) Page 4, after line 26, insert — there is, unfortunately, some distur bance. What is to happen if there is “(2A) Two copies each of the another election or a by-election? The draft as well as final rolls shall im hon. Member knows alternatives. He mediately after publication be sup is such an eminent lawyer. The alter* plied free of cost to each recognis natives are always there but they ought ed political party in that constitu not to be resorted to. ency and one copy of the final rolls shall be supplied free of cost Shri Sadhan Gupta: My second to every validly nominated candi amendment is regarding the assistance date for election from that consti of political parties. By this amendment tuency in a general or by election.” T have sought to add section 21A which is to read : (2) Page 4, after line 26, insert — “The chief electoral officer, “(2A) In the preparation, revi every electoral registration officer sion and correction of electoral and every assistant registration rolls, the Election Commission officer shall take such assistance shall invite the co-operation of all as may be given to him by all poli recognised political parties and tical parties recognised by the Elec afford them adequate facilities for tion Commission and by such such co-operation.” other organisations as such officer (3) Page 5, line 40, add at the end. may think fit in the matter of prepa ration or revision of electoral rolls “Whether in the first instance or and shall afford each of them all in appeal from an order of the elec reasonable facilities for rendering toral registration officer.” such assistance.” Shrl Bibhuti ISfiAra : I beg to move ; The hon. Minister had complained Page 6, om it lines 1 to 3— yesterday that co-operation was not forthcoming. My contention is that Mr. Depnty-Speaiwr: These are the co-operation could not be given princi amendments moved. Amendment Nos. pally because it was impossible tmder 213 Rtpretentation e f the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PtopU {Amndmtnt) Bill 214 [Shri Sadhan Gupta] example, that a certain electoral officer, the present set-up to offer the real kind although he was told repeatedly, did not of co-operation. For instance, what call one particular party because the co-operation could the political parties Government was not favourably dispos give without being supplied a draft of ed towards that party. Of course, the the electoral roll 7 How would they difficulty is that he thinks that if he has know who had been omitted and who loo much to do with that party the Gov had been included? They cannot be ernment may be displeased with him expected to visit the thana or a post particularly when he is a servant of office to copy out the draft in extenso that Government. Therefore, if the and then see who has been omitted and statutory direction is there then it Vill all that. Therefore, all reasonable be a safeguard for him as well as a facilities must be provided to people, to safeguard for the people. That is why I recognised political parties and to other commend this proposed section 21A for organisations. There may be social or the acceptance of the House. ganisations and there may be unrecog nised political parties. But, what I Shri Kamath t Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I have sought to provide is that it is an have moved my amendments Nos. 25, obligation on the electoral officer to ac 26 and 28. I am at one with my hon. cept the co-operation of the recognised friend Shri Sadhan Gupta that the as political parties and it is discretionary sistance of all parties—the party in on the electoral officer to select other power and the opposition parties— organisations, which would include, of should be sought by the Election Com course, unrecognised political parties, mission on a footing of absolute equality whose assistance will be taken. I and fairness. They should be afforded do not doubt that he will exercise his all adequate and reasonable facilities discretion in a reasonable manner. for giving such assistance 'Und co-ope Therefore, I have sought to provide this ration to the Election Commission as is additional safeguard which will ensure required in this very important work. an accurate preparation of the electoral This is the very basis of our election. rolls because the political parties are If this work is ill-done, elections can much better in touch with the localities not possibly be free and fair. To en and can help in the preparation of the sure that this co-operation is really electoral rolls more efficiently than the effective I have moved my amendment staflF of the election department. No. 25 to the effect that two copies of the draft as well as final rolls shall be I have known cases in Calcutta where made available to every recognised poli people have not been included in the tical party in the area, State or consti electoral rolls. When they complained tuency. The final rolls can, of course, to the department they were told that come later on but unless the draft is their names would be included after the made available free of cost to each re enquiry had been made. After some cognised political party in the State or time when they visited the department constituency ...... again they were told that the enquiries had been made but they were not found Shri U . M. Trivedl: That will be real in their houses. As a matter of fact, the democracy. enquiries were not made at all. Perhaps the person entrusted with the carrying Shri Kamath : .... I fail to see how a on of an enquiry just filled up a ficU- political party can give real effective as tious form and did not actually go to sistance to the Election Commission in enquire. Something like that happened this work which affects the entire nation, so that although on record the enquiry the entire people. As far as the final was shown to have been made yet the rolls are concerned I have suggested enquiry was not in fact made. This that two copies of the final rolls should thing would happen if it is entrusted to be made available free of cost to every mere bureaucratic operation. recognised political party as well as to every validly nominated candidate in a Therefore, it is always better to have constituency. I am given to understand, representatives of the parties, in which and I hope my friends Shri S. S. More the people have confidence and which and Shri Altekar will bear me out, that have their links with the people, to come in the last election the Bombay Gov- in for the preparation of electoral rolls. enunent supplied electoral rolls free of Without a statutory direction it has been cost to candidates. found that many of the officers are ra ther charry of accepting such co-opera Shri Altekar (North Stara) : 7 copies tion. It has happened in Bengal, for to each. 215 RepresentatioH o f tht 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PeopU (Amendment) Bill 216 Shrl Kamath: My demand is very ^ ^ Kfinfsm’ % sifw modest, 1 have said only two copies. In my State of Madhya Pradesh they do JRff t not give even one copy. S K T 3ft Shri U. M. Tilvedl: In Rajasthan they do not even allow to see the rolls. ^ T ftn r s r r f w Shrl Kam ath : That seems to be the ’HTT t , ^ ^ ITTT ^ ^ <#)!T Avorst case. But Bombay State seems to be progressive at least in this respect if ^ w ^ 5rr ;c t t I not in others. I do not know whether in U.P. also they do, but regarding 5Tf m ? ? JIT^ ^ IT# ^ ^ Bombay it has bwn stated by my hon. friend that 7 copies of the electoral rolls ^ ^ ft: ^Rff % are supplied; of course, the Minister ^ «TTfinr ^ t ? t ^ himself is from Bombay and he must be knowing it very well. If that has been Tt»iT, «nK of the chief electoral officer under sub clause 4 (b). I have suggested that the flnjr "TT ^ ^ ?ft ^ ^ orprr appeal should lie to the Election Com T?^ JIT «ft^ ^ ^ 5ftf^ ft; mission in both cases—whether in the first instance or in appeal from an order ^ ^ ^ ^ f^?:?ft KTHT Tt, of the electoral registration officer. ?ft t gjBprr j ftf ji? ?r?r ^ % I commend all these amendments 25, 26 and 28—to the acceptance of the < r m r ? ^ ?ft ^ 3ft m f^ T R ^ ferr »m f, 4 ? JTOT ^ 7 ^ t PP ^ ^n»ff ^ anrr 'srt ift ^ ^ srraift, % «f5Tra' ^ ^ ftjiT I !( j t w r : % W V # ??r felT JW ^ : 217 Represmlation of the 18 FEBRUARY 1956 PeopU (Amndnunt) Bill 218 W , ?ft ?rf f%rf*TFCT ? T ff T t“ “Every application and appeal under this section shall be accom ^ntT %5ft’^ rrf^ w ff% ^ IT? TO ^ panied by the prescribed fee which t ^ «»5t ^ 5ftT T?: SIPT^ T shall in no case be refunded.” ^ «flT IHR 5IRW !ft^ X? 5(T?ft t ^ «rre»ft 5ft TO % M fiviprR r«r»fw< ^ ^ntT ^ 5T fr TO »rtr*r ietk ^ ^ ?ff ^ «FT 5TTR- ?n:*Fn: ^ treT«r«i-pfl ^r ^ t ftr ™ ^ ^ ^ jftJ T ^^^^tT^W^ITO spfWT |?TT I ^ ^ ^TTBPr 'TTRT »r(t^ «rK ^ ^r f^re% «mrttt ^ ^ 3 ft ^ rW ^ ^ ^TTR % ^ » R t^ %ftK ^ f»T3ip % ^ ^ JTTT «PT?rT ^RnsTT 5n=imT^ t < f m ^ f m '1^ 'T^ ST^,^ JTHT f5W %ft JTTT t ^ ^ ^ 3JT^^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ’P W ^TTRK srr?rr H3T ^?it5r ;t» ^ ^c ^ t o gvr % ^TTT | ^ f5tzrr arm the Minister. It is probable that out of Shri Pataskar: But it is a little dif 18 crores of people, some name may be ferent. I think this should satisfy all casually left out. 1 can hardly reply to the armments which have been advanc persons who, in the name of the poor, ed with respect to these clauses. can say anything they like. That is the only reply which I can give. Probably Mr. Deputy-Speaker; The question my friend has not been able to follow IS the trend of legislation which we are Page 4— making. It is the Constitution which "om it lines 24 to 26" has created an Election Commission, and having failed to realise that, the The motion was negatived. hon: Member has made his remarks Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question in the name of the poor. I do not know IS : whether poor people have come in Page large numbers in respect of this matter. after line 36, insert — I have very little to reply to such fan tastic arguments. “21 A. Assistance of political par ties to be taken in preparation and, As regards the suggestion made by revision of electoral rolls. — The the hon. Member Shn Kamath, with res chief electoral officer, every electo pect to the supply of some copies to the ral registration officer and every candidates, in what stage and in what assistant registration officer shall manner, I think these are matters which take such assistance as may be should be left rather to be prescribed given to him by all political parties and decided by rules or instructions, recognised ' by the Election Com quite apart from the suggestion that mission and by such other organi without any such provision in the State sations as such officer may think flt of Bombay ijopies could be supplied in the matter of preparation or re there. I think that is a matter which will vision of electoral rolls and shall be considered by the Election Commis afford each of them all reasonable sion. As has been mentioned yester facilities for rendering such as day, the Election Commission only some sistance." months back had called a conference of . The motion was negatived. representatives of all political parties Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question and took some tentative decisions and is : issued some instructions. I think these are matters which should not be incor Page 4— porated in the statute-book without after line 26, insert — knowing what the consequences are and “(2A) Two copies each of the what the costs are. These are necessa draft as well as final rolls shall, rily the matters which the Election immediately after publication be Commission will take into account. supplied free of cost to each re cognised political party in that Shrl Kamath: What about the rules? constituency, and one copy of the final rolls shall be supplied free of Shrl Pataskar: When the rules are cost to every validly nominated framed, they will be laid on the Table candidate for election from that of the House. I am prepared to say that constituency in a general or by in the place of sub-clause (b) (3) of election.” clause 24, to which Shri Kamath has tabled an amendment, we will have a The motion war negatived. clause which will satisfy him, namely : Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The questioo is : “All rules made under this Act Page 4— shall, as soon as may be after they are made, be laid for not less than after line 26, insert — thirty days before both Houses of “(2A) In the preparation, revi Parliament and shall be subject to sion and correction of electoral such modification as Parliament rolls, the Election Commission may make during the session in shall invite the co-operation of all which they are so laid or the ses recognised political parties and sion immediately following.” afford them adequate facilites for Shri Kamath i That is my amend such co-operation.” ment. The motion was negatived. 3-4Lok Sabha 221 JUprtuiUaiion of tht 18 FEBRUARY 1956 People (Ammdment) Bill 222 Clause 24— (Amendment of section M r. Deputy-Speaker: The question 28) : IS : Amendment made — Page 7 Page 5, line 40— for lines 30 to 32 sub.Uitute — add at the end “(3) All rules made under this Act shall as soon as may be after "Whether in the first instance or they are made, be laid for not less in appeal from an order of the than thirty days before both Houses electoral registration officer.” of Parliatflent and shall be subject The motion was negatived. to such modifications as Parliament Mr. Deputy-Speaker; The question may make during the session in IS ; which they are so laid or the ses sion immediately following.” • Page 6— . — [Shri Pataskar} om it lines 1 to 3. Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question The motion wax negatived. is : Shri Kamatii: What about amend “That clause 24, as amended, stands ment No. 29 ? part of the Bill.” The motion was adopted. Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The amend ment is not to clause IS. It comes under Clause 24, as amended, was added to clause 24. The question is : the Bill. Clauses 25 to 28 were added to the “That clause 15 stands part of Bill. the Bill.” New Clause 29 The motion was adopted. Clause 15 was added to the Bill. Mr. Deputy-Speaker t There is a Gov ernment amendment No. 6 for the inser Clauses 16 and 17 were added to the tion of a new clause 29. Bill. Amendment made : Page 8 Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The convention after line 20, add — and practice are that after the time is “29. Repeal of Ordinance 7 of over, all the amendments tabled by the Government should be allowed to be 1955.—^The Representation of the moved. Under clause 18, there are two People (Amendment) Ordinance, 1955 is hereby repealed.” amendments given notice of. — [Shri Pataskar] Clause 18 — (Amendment of section 27.) Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question Amendments made : (i) Page 6, line is : 17. “That new clause 29 stands part of for “a local authority” substitute the BUI.” “each such local authority”. .. “(ii) Page 7, lines 3 and 4— The motion was adopted. New clause 2^ was added to the Bill. omit: “[excluding the second proviso Clause 1— (short title.) to sub-section (2)]” — [Shri Pataskar] Amendment made : Page 1— 2 P.M. for clause 1, substitute — Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question “ 1. Short title.—This Act may be is : called the Representation of the People (Amendment) Act, 1956.” “That clause 18, as amended, — [Shri Pataskar] stands part of the Bill.” Shri Pataskar: This Act will come The motion was adopted into force as soon as it receives the as Clause 18, as amended, was added to sent of the President. the Bill. Shri Kamatli: It is said here that it Clauses 19 to 23 were added to the shall come into force on the 1st day of am. January, 1956. 223 Bar Councils 18 FEBRUARY 1956 (Validation o f Statt Laws) Bill 224 Mr. Deputy'Speaker: M r. K am ath’s This is a very simple Bill. The Indian point is that it is mentioned here that Bar Councils Uttar Pradesh (Amend this will come into force on the 1st day ment) Act 1950 (U.P. Act XXIV of of January, 1956, whereas we are in the 1950) provided for the dissolution of the month of February now, and the Bill AUahanad Council and the Avadh may have to go to the other House Council and the constitution of an ad and so on. It is open to the Lok Sabha hoc Bar Council for the High Court of to say that it shall come into force Allahabad. As we are all aware, for from the 1st day of January. merly there were the Chief Court of Avadh and the High Court of Allaha Shri Pataskar: After my amendment bad. After the coming into force of No. 2 to clause 1 has been adopted, the Constitution, naturally, there was there is no mention of the date on which only one High Court and that was the this will come into force. This will High Court of Allahabad. Therefore, come into force on the date on which they passed this Act for the establish this receives the assent of the President. ment of a Bar Council for Uttar Pra Mr. Deputy-Speaker : So, sub-clause desh. (2) ot clause 1 is omitted, in view of " [P a n d it T h a k u r D as B haroava in the Shri Pataskar’s amendment. Chair] The Allahadbad High Court, however, The question is: in the decision reported in A.I.R. “That clause 1, as amended, 1954 Allahabad 728 said that the sub stand part of the Bill.” ject matter of the enactment related to The motion was adopted the latter part of entry 78 of the Union List in the Seventh Schedule to the Clause 1, as amended, war added to Constitution, that is, “persons entitled to the Bill. practice before the High Courts” and not to entry 26 of the Concurrent List— Enacting Formula “legal medical and other professions”. Amendment made : Page 1 line 1— As hon. Members are aware, there are for “Sixth Year” substitute two entries in our Constitution; entry “Seventh Year”. No. 26 in the Concurrent List, “legal — [Shri Pataskar] medical and other professions”, and Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question entry 78 in the Union List, “persons entitled to practice before High Courts”. is : The Allahabad High Court came to "That the Enacting Formula, as the conclusion that this matter related amended, stand part of the Bill.” more to entry No. 78 and therefore has The motion M'as adopted. held that that Act was ultra vires. Now, it is represented by the Government of The Enacting Formula, as amended, the U.P. that on account of this deci was added to the Bill. sion, some difficulties have been creatcd in the matter of the working of the Bar The Title was added to the Bill. Councils Act in that State. Shri Pataskar : I beg to move: Similarly, on the creation of the State of Andhra, the President, in exercise of “That the Bill, as amended, be the powers of the Andhra Legislature passed.” then vested in him, enacted the Indian Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The question Bar Councils (Andhra Amendment) is : Act, 1954 (President’s Act VII of 1954) and the Madras Legislature enact “That the Bill, as amended be ed the Indian Bar Councils (Madras passed.” Amendment) Act, 1954, providing for The motion was adopted. separate Bar Councils being established for the State of Andhra and the State of Madras. Supposing this matter was BAR COUNCILS (VALIDATION OF taken up somewhere, it may be decided STATE LAWS) BILL one way or the other. So far as the The Minister of Legal Ailairs (Siirl decision of the Allahabad High Court Pataskar : I beg to move : is concerned, the U.P. Government has “That the Bill to validate certain gone in appeal to the Supreme Court. State Laws amending the Indian Apart from that particular case, it is Bar Councils Act, 1926, as passed desirable that we should try to set mat by Rajya Sabha, be taken into con ters right by accepting the decision of sideration.” the Allahabad High Court and.putting 225 Bar Councils 18 FEBRUARY 1956 {Validation e f Slate Laws) Bill 22& [Shri Pataskar] fore, the-next motion cannot appropri ately come in here. That is my submis it beyond doubt that these Acts shall sion for your consideration. be valid as if they were passed by this Another point is this. The validating Parliament. 1 think the Bill is more or provisions are circulated to the Mem less of a non-controversial nature. It is bers, The other enactments have not intended for facilitating a small matter, been circulated to the Members. Is this for correcting something which has proper compliance with the Rules of created some difTerence of opinion. 1 Procedure ? We are supposed to give va hope this Bill will be passed. This Bill lidity to all those Acts. Is it not the func has been passed by the Rajya Sabha. tion of the Government to see that all Shri S. S. More (Sholapur): Before those enactments along with the validat you put the motion to the Lok Sabha, ing Bill are circulated to the Members so may I seek some clarification and if ne that the Members can properly study cessary rise to a point of order? those provisions and see what validity is to be imparted to those enactments? Under rule 91 of our Rules of Pro Because we arc undoing the effect ot a cedure, High Court’s decision, that should not be done very lightly. “As soon as may be after a Bill has been introduced, the Bill, unless Shri U. M. Trlvedi (Chittor): On a, it has already been published, shall point of order, I want to make a little be published in the Gazette.” submission. The point has been touched by my hon. friend Shri S. S. More, I My submission is this. Here, we are want to elaborate a little on it. Because validating the provisions of certain Acts this motion is for consideration, I oppose passed by provincial legislatures. In consideration of this motion. effect, we are adopting all those provi sions as part of our enactment. Then Mr. Chairman : Orderf order. The- only could validity be imparted to those motion has not yet been put to the Lok provisions. Interpreting this rule in the Sabha. Let the motion be put. Then, proper spirit, this is supposed to be for there can be either support or opposition public information. The validity clauses to the motion. I thought the hon. Mem alone are not enough. All the provi ber was raising some point relating to sions which are going to receive validity the motion itself. at our hands also form part of the present Bill. If a Bill is to be publish Shri U . M. Trlvedi: To the motion ed according to this rule, I would sub itself. mit that the Bill along with the provi sions of the Acts which are to receive Mr. Chairman : He is opposing the validity at our hands should also be motion. There will be ample time to simultaneously published. Then alone oppose. can publication be said to be complete in accordance with the spirit of rule 91. Shri U. M. Trlvedi My submission I want to know whether all these enact is, it should not be considered at all. ments have been published along with the validating provisions of the Bill. Mr. Chairman : The motion should not be put? Mr. Chairman : W hat is the conten tion? Does he wish to say that this Bill Shri U. M. Trlvedi: The motion has not been published in the Gazette? should not be considered. I make this submission not only because of the Shri S. S. M ore : My submission is,— provisions of rule 91 which my hon. I have not made myself clear.... friend Shri S. S. More pointed out, but Mr. Chaimum : I understand the hon. also for this reason. The Statement of Member to mean that not only the Bill, Objects and Reasons shows that this but the provisions of the laws sought to law could only have been made by Par be validated ought to have been publish liament under the provisions of article ed. 246 read with item 78 of the Union List. That is to say, whatever law is to Shri S. S. M ore : If they are publish be made could be made only by Parlia ed, the next motion can come in. If they ment. Here, what they are seeking is, t» are not published along with the validat validate a law which neither exists ing provisions, my submission is, there de facto nor de jure. You can validate is no compliance with rule 91 and there things which exist. Things which do 227 JJar Councils 18 FEBRUARY 1956 (Validation of State Laws) Bill 228 n ot exist, you cannot validate. There is a different matter. So far as the must be something in existence which operation of rule 91 is concerned, 1 you can validate. Here, there is nothing think there is no bar. ' in existence. That law which was made by the U.P. legislature was ab initio Mr. Chairman : As a matter of void. A b initio void means no law of f a c t.. . . that nature exists now. Therefore, there Shil S. S. More : Before giving your is nothing to validate. In other words, it final decision, will you permit me to is this Parliament which is now going make a submission? to make a new law. If a new law is to be made, all the provisions of that law must Mr. Chairman : The practice is that be embodied in the Bill. These provi as soon as a Bill is introduced, a copy is sions are not in the Bill itself. What the supplied to the Members. Bill says is. take cognisance of the three laws, invalid laws which do not exist* Copies of the relevant provisions of anywhere and validate them. Such a Bill law which are sought to be enacted or cannot be introduced and cannot be amended are also supplied. At the same put for consideration before the Lok time, if there is a reference in the Bill Sabha. This contention has been upheld to certain Acts, entire copies of those in the decision in A.I.R. 1954 Allahabad Acts are not supplied. If there is any 728 which has been referred to in this reference to any particular portion of case itself. any law, then the copies of the relevant portion from that law is supplied even Mr. Chairman : Order, Order. The today. This is the practice. Shri More’s point whether there is something non complaint is, since the House is asked existent, whether that can be validated, to validate the entire provisions of cer will also com Shri Pataskar : I think I gave it. Mr. Chairman : The motion is made Shri S. S. M ore : He simply referred and I will take the vote whether it is to the Allahabad High Court decision. allowed to be considered or not at the Are we going to give validity to all those proper time. , provisions in an ignorant manner and will it be consistent with our dignity and Sliri Sadhan Gupta: But there wilt responsibility to the whole country 7 I be discussion on the motion? would request that this may not be strictly interpreted as coming under rule Mr. Cliairman : There will be discus 91. You have to lay down certain sion on the motion after it is placed be principles for the guidance of the Gov fore the House. ernment and Members of the Opposi tion. This is a democracy which should Motion moved : be a vigilant democracy and not an ig “That the Bill to validate certain norant, blindly following democracy. State laws amending the Indian Bar Councils Act, 1926, as passed by Mr. Chairman : The bon. Member Rajya Sabha, be taken into consi has himself been here in Parliament for deration.” such a long time and fee knows the rules very well. Shri U. M. Trivedi: As the State Shri S. S. M ore : Only two or three ment of Objects and Reasons of this years. Bill says, this Bill has become necessary by virtue of a judgment delivered by the Mr. Chairman : When the rules are Allahabad High Court declaring a piece there, it is not for the Chair to add to of legislation known as U.P. Act XXIV them, The hon. Member himself could of 1950 ultra vires by virtue of the have given notice of a change in the provisions of Entry No. 78 of the rules and the Rules Committee might Seventh Schedule of the Constitution. have amended rule 91 to the effect he There can be no two opinions about wants. the soundness of this judgment and hav At the same time, in the absence of ing accepted.... such a rule which requires that the relevant provisions shou d be published Mr. Chairman : Before the hon. along with the Bill, I do not feel justified Member proceeds may I remind the in not putting the motion before the House that the time allotted is only House. I am clear in my mind that it is half an hour? quite desirable that all the provisions which are sought to be enacted should Shri U . M. Trivedi: It wiU be diffi be supplied to hon. Members «o that cult. Supposing we have to throw cut they may understand and may not just this Bill, it might take a longer time, in ignorance pass them in extenso as if G od knows. 231 Bar Coundh 18 FEBRUARY 1956 {Validation of Statt Laws) Bill 232 Mr. Cbalmumi Even if it has to be Shri U. M. Trlvedl: In the year 1885. thrown out, the Business Advisory Com I shall read only the relevant portion of mittee has been pleased to give o^y half the judgment. an hour. “An unconstitutional act is in Shri U. M. TrivedI: We will try to be legal contemplation as inoperative as short as possible, but you as a law as though it had never passed.” yer can understand why.... Things which de jure do not exist, things which de facto do not exist, can Mr. Chairman ; 1 would request the not be made to exist by the passing of hon. Member not to expatiate too much. a law of this nature. It has been laid down that a thing which does not exist Shri U. M. Trlvedl: 1 do not want to. cannot in legal contemplation exist. Therefore, this law does not exist. And As I was saying, the law was clear, this being a nullity, you cannot pass a and after this clear decision of the High law now to validate a thing which does Court, another mistake was committed not exist at all. by promulgating two more laws, namely the Indian Bar Councils (Andhra The Minister of Legal Affairs is Amendment) Act and the Indian Bar himself a lawyer, and this is a law which Councils (Madras Amendment) Act, emanates from the Law Ministry itself. 1954. These two Acts also were follow It is not a law which has been framed ing in the wake of this decision of the by the Finance Ministry, or the Educa Allahabad High Court. It was then tion Ministry, or the Health Minist^ or found, perhaps on legal opinion being the Commerce and Industrj; Ministry, obtained, that all the three of them were but by the Law Ministry; it is indeed invalid laws. curious that the Law Ministry should «• make an illegal law .... This Parliament is powerful enough. Shri Pataskar: They have not done It can make any law. All the residuary that. powers exist in this Parliament, but when there is a specific provision of Shri U. M. Trivedi: It is not some law, no residuary power is to be used. thing which can go down the throats of When article 246 read with Entry No. 78 the Members of the I^k Sabha. We have lays down that it is within the power to take stock of this situation. I there of this Parliament to make laws with fore submit that this Bill must be with reference to persons who can be allow drawn. ed to practice in High Courts, it is a specific provision for which a law has to I would also like to draw the atten be made. If there is a specific provision, tion of the Minister to a judgment of the residuary power is of no use. It the Patna High Court (50, Patna, page will come into play only if there is no 392). There also, it was a case where specific provision. Therefore, my sub the President was asked to certify parti mission is that this law which seeks to cular provisions of law to give them va validate the existence of the sp-called in lidity. It was held by the court that an valid laws is—I submit in the mildest Act which is invalid cannot be valida tone—unconstitutional, firstly because, ted by mere certification, because that as I submitted earlier, a specific provi invalid Act itself was a nullity. sion exists, and secondly because those “The conclusion therefore is that laws have been declared by a High the certification by the President is Court to be void ab initio; and you can meant to cure an irregularity or an not validate a thing which is void ab illegality in a certain provision of initio. an Act which is otherwise good law but is not meant to cure a nullity." Here, it is not a question of validating an action of an ofiicer or of validating Here, my submission is that the judg an action which has already been taken. ment of the Allahabad High Court has Here, you want to validate a law which declared this as a nullity, as something does not exist. This is what we find in void ab initio, that is, as something a very old case reported by the Supreme which was done without any power Court of America, in Extein Norton v. whatsoever. The U.P. Legislature, or Shelhy Country of the United States, the Madras Legislature or the Andhra page 179). Legislature had no power whatsoever to enact a law which would govern the Shri H. G. Vakhiuy (A m bad) ; Which enrolment of persons who would be en year? titled to practise before the High Courts. 233 Bar Counci/r 18 FEBRUARY 1956 {Validation of State Laws) Bill 234 [Shri U. M. Trivedi] All these anomalies should have been Under those circumstances, my submis remedied by passing a comprehensive sion is that this Bill which says : Bill regulating the Indian Bar, that is to say, the admission to the bar, and its practising discipline and so on, on an “This Act may be called the Bar all-India basis. But that has not been Councils (Validation of State done in spite of the recommendations Uws) Act, 1955.” of the Committee which went into this matter, and we find piecc-meal legisla is not a valid thing. I would therefore tion coming in respect of different request the Minister to take stock of the States, while what is really needed iy situation and withdraw this Bill, and going by default. So it is a very dis bring forward another Bill for the con appointing state of affairs, and I want sideration of the Lok Sabha to riiake a to draw the attention of the Minister proper law. particularly to that aspect. Shri Sadhan Gupta : Before 1 come to the Bill itself, I must express my dis Coming to the Bill itself, I would not appointment with the way Government stand in the way of the passing of the are proceeding about the affairs of the Bill, because apparently it has become Bar. Now, a committee had reported a necessary on account of certain reorgani few years ago—I think two or three sation of High Courts—due in one case years ago—on this matter. A committee to the constitution of a new State and in presided over by the present Chief Jus the other case to the abolition of two tice of India had recommended an all- High Courts, in accordance with consti India Bar. If the Minister had consider tutional provisions. But I have grave ed, and acted upon, the recommenda doubts about the constitutional validity' tions of that committee, a bill of this of this particular Bill. W e'are not en kind would not have been necessary at acting the particular Acts in detail; we all. are trying to ratify them. I have my grave doubts as to whether this kind of As a matter of fact, an all-India Bar procedure is permissible under the Cons is very much necessary, because the In titution. Even apart from what the dian Bar is in a state of chaos. We have United States Supreme Court has said, different rules in different places, which there is this aspect of it, that what we is somthing absolutely unwarranted. are trying to ratify is an Act passed by These things should therefore be reme a State Legislature or passed by an au died. We have different classifications in thority acting for the State Legislature, the profession itself. acting instead of the State Legislature. Normally, if this had come to Parlia Shri Kamath (Hoshangabad): May ment in the form of a Bill, we could I point out that there is only half the have considered amendments and in quorum? that way we could have considered the merits and demerits of the Bill itself. In Mr. Chairman! The bell is bang this particular case, even if we disagree rung—Now there is quorum. with the U.P. Act or the Madras Act The hon. Member, Shri Sadhan Gupta or the Andhra Act, we are not in a posi may continue. tion to move amendments. We are not in a position to amend those provisions Shri Sadhan G upta : I was pointing while considering this Bill. I have my out that the Indian Bar is in a state of grave doubts whether this kind of rati chaos. Just to give a few random illus fication is permitted by the Constitution. trations, mukhtiars who can conduct cri- After all, I think the Constitution does '^inal cases in the original courts are not expect us, while sitting in Parliament, allowed to appear at the appellate stage. to legislate by considering the merits So, all these things are there. There is and demerits of the Acts themselves as one other particularly sor^ state of well as of the different provisions of the affairs, and that is that while we recog Acts, and to effect such changes as we nise barristers of Endand as being en may think fit. Therefore, although I titled to enrol here, the people who are would not stand in the way of the pass so qualified here are not entitled to enrol ing of the Bill, yet I have grave doubts themselves in England. Although I be as to the constitutional validity of this long to that category myself, 1 have rte Bill. 1 would ask the hon. Minister to hesitation in condemning this kind of give consideration to this aspect of the practice. , matter. 235 Bar Councils 18 FEBRUARY 1956 {Validation qf State Ijrns) Bill 236 Shrl Pataskar: So far as this Bill is that this short Bill validating the estab concerned, the question that arose was lishment of one Bar Council instead of AS 1 said in the beginning, this, that two in U.P., and a separate Bar Council after the abolition of the Avadh Chief for Andhra and Madras each, has been Court and the establishment of one High brought forward. Of course, 1 do appre Court for Uttar Pradesh, what was ciate that in the case of this Bill it thought necessary was not to change the might have been much better if instead whole of the Bar Councils Act but to of my saying something, a few copies make some change providing for a Bar of those Acts had been circulated. Council. Formerly, there were two Bar Shri V. G. Deshpande (G u n a): We Councils, one for Allahabad and one tried in the Library. Not one copy is for Avadh. After the constitution of available. one High Court, the Allahabad High Court, they wanted that there should be Shri Pataskar: I really sympathise only one Bar Council because there is with that view. I quite appreciate that no second High Court. Similarly, after it would have been better if we had pro the separation of Andhra and Madras, cured a few copies. But I would like to where there was formerly only one Bar appeal to hon. Members not to press Council, they wanted to have two Bar that. 1 can assure them that nothing Councils because there were two High has been done in any way to interfere Courts establRhed. They wanted to with the Bar Councils Act except to es make the provision without in any way tablish one Bar Council for Allahabad interfering with the Bar Councils Act necessitated by their being One High except for the purpose of establishing Court in Allahabad, and to establish one two Bar Councils. As a matter of fact, Bar Council each in Madras and the Bar Councils do not deal only with Andhra, necessitated by the establish persons who are entitled to practice in ment of separate High Courts for An the High Cfeurt, but generally with the dhra and Madras. Bar in the whole of that State. It was Shri S. S. M ore : May I seek a clari- from that point of view that these Coun fiction 7 cils have been established. There is no Shri Pataskar: I will give whatever thing else done in this Bill. This has information I have. been necessitated by the actual state of It is not as if we are trying to validate things as they existed in Uttar Pradesh, something which has been done and in Andhra and Madras. a matter in which there has been a find ing by a High Court that what was done Somehow or other when the matter was not consistent with the provisions of went to the Allahabad High Court, that the Constitution. On the contrary, it is in Court declared the Act ultra vires of consonance with the spirit of this Gov the State Legislature on the ground that ernment to accept the decisions of courts it related to entry 78 of the Union List, which are given—the Allahabad High -which says : Court, for instance. Of course, the 6ther “Constitution and organisation of matters have not been decided. But the High Courts except provisions apart from that, we say that so far as as to officers and servants of High decisions of judicial courts are concern Courts; persons entitled to practise ed, they are entitled to the highest res before the High Courts.” pect, because they function under the Constitution. But it is purely with a As we all know, there is an appeal view to accommodate the profession in pending before the Supreme Court and general that this simple measure has we do not anticipate what the decision been brought forward. There was no in will be. But as a matter of fact, on ac tention at any time either to keep back count of this litigation, a considerable anything or to do anything behind any amount of inconvenience is being caus body’s back. O f Course, this Bill has ed in a technical way. I quite appreciate been passed by the Rajya Sabha and is the feelings of my hon. friend, Shri now before the Lok Sabha. A little Sadhan Gupta. But here there is no in while ago, the President of the U.P. tention to take away anybody’s right or Lawyer’s Association—I do not know to do anything behind anybody’s back. whether he is here now—was with me W hat has hap{>ened is that a certain de and he was very anxious that we should cision is creating some difficulty of an tiy to help them by removing this tech administrative nature and we have to nical difficulty which was coming in remedy it in the interest of the general their way. I think we should concentrate public and of the profession in general. more on doine whatever we can to re It is purely from that point of view move that difficulty so that the Bar 237 Bar Cou/idU 18 FEBRUARY 1956 (Validation o! State Laws) Bill 23« [S/in Pataskar] Bombay and Calcutta High Courts which have got original sides also. I Councils Act functions properly. It is may inform the Lok Sabha that I had from that point of view that this has gone to Bombay to discuss the matter been brought forward. 1 can appreciate with the parties concerned, on the ap the fears and feelings expressed on the pellate side and on the original side and other side. But I would appeal to them, also the Government. The Bill is ready including my hon. friend from Rajas except that before it is brought forward. than, to realise that this is a Bill which I would like to go to Calcutta and dis has been brought forward more in the cuss the matter with people there. I interest of administration of justice in think that within a short time that Bill courts where some suffering is caused will come. It is not that they should as a result of a technical difficulty. agree but what I want is, let me go and Shri U . M. Trivedi: It is not that we work in a spirit of adujstment and co doubt his bona fides. But in bringing operation. It is from that point of view forward a Bill to remove some difficulty, that the Bill is now pending with us. I he should not bring some difficulty. think that at the earliest possible oppor tunity it will be brought before the Lok Shri S. S. M ore : May I seek some Sabha. information? May I know whether the Shri S. S. M ore : What time will it Allahabad High Court’s judgment dec take before it is put before us? lares ultra vires of the State Legisla ture the Indian Bar Councils Uttar Pra Siiri Patasiiar : Next month I am desh (Amendment) Act 1950 in toto or going to Calcutta. Practically, half of it any part of it? We have no definite idea is complete so far as the Bombay High as to how many sections are there. Court IS concerned. Mr. Chairman : The real* purpose of There is another point I would submit the relevant entries in the Constitution is for your consideration. We are validat to have a uniform law for the whole of ing the U.P. Act. That is perfectly cor India and to have a unified Bar Council rect. But the two other Acts have not for the whole of India. As long as these been invalidated by any court. In spite Acts are being legalised here, there is of that, we are validating them. So no prospect of that Bill coming up. have we that power to invalidate certain Siiri Patasiuir: I can assure the'Lok Acts of a State Legislature and then Sabha that so far as that Bill is concern validate them, without the decision of ed, I have finished consideration of the any court? report. I am dealing with it. I had gone Shri Pataskar : We have consulted the to Bombay twice or thrice and I am Governments of Andhra and Madras proposing to go to Calcutta to consult particularly because a Bill had to be the Calcutta Bar and the High Court. brought here. We wanted that we should On account of certain difficulties I could not expect a decision of the High Court not go till now. That seems to be the idea underlying Mr. Chairman : The question is ; the bringing forward of this measure. I think we are right. We should not wait “That the Bill to validate certain till some High Court decides the mat State laws amending the Indian Bar ter. It is only from that point of view Councils Act,- 1926, as passed by that the present Bill has been brought the Rajya Sabha, be taken into con before the Lok Sabha. sideration.” The motion was adopted. Mr. Chairman : I think there was a measure contemplated for consolidating Clause 1.— (Short title) all the Bar Councils Acts and a com An^endment made : mittee was appointed by the Supreme In page 1, line 4— for “ 1955” subs Court also. When is the Government titute “ 1956” likely to come forward with a Bill con [Shri Pataskar] solidating all the Bar Councils Acts? Mr. Chairman : Now, the question is : When is it coming? “Clause 1, as amended, clause 2 Shri Pataskar: There was a commit and the Schedule stand part of the tee appointed some years back with res BUI.” pect to the creation of a unified Bar Council. The only difficulty in the way The motion was adopted. is with respect to what is to be done Clause 1, as amended, clause 2 and the regarding certain High Courts like the Schedule were added to the Bill. 239 Voluntaiy Surrendtr 18 FEBRUARY 1956 of Salaries {Exemption from 240 7axation) Amendment Bill Enacttng Fonnnla Act attached to the offices, they are due to those persons holding those offices. Amendment made: As we are advised that ‘salary’ will not In page 1, line 1— for “Sixth include allowances and perquisites, we Y ear’ substitute “Seventh Year”. have brought forward this Bill to make provision for that. I am sure the Lok — [Shri Pataskar] Sabha will agree to this simple measure. Mr. Chairman: The question is: Mr. Chairman : Motion moved : “That the Enacting Formula, as “That the Bill further to amend amended, and the Title stand part the Voluntary Surrender of Salaries of the Bill." (Exemption from Taxation) Act, The motion was adopted. 1950, be taken into consideration." The Enacting Formula, as amended, and the Title were added to the Bill. Shri S. S. More (Sholapur); May we know from the Minister concerned how many persons have surrendered a part Shri Pataskar: 1 beg to move : of their salaries since the main Act was “That the Bill, as amended, be passed? That will be interesting infor passed." mation and will prove to us the correct ness of the measure that we are to dis Mr. Chairman : The question is: cuss. “That the Bill, as amended, be passed." Siiri M. C. Sliah : Today, we have just brought forward this Bill to amend The motion was adopted. the Act in order to include the surrender of allowances also. Under the Consti tution and the Acts of the Centre Ind VOLUNTARY SURRENDER OF the States, allowances and emoluments SALARIES (EXEMPTION FROM attach to the offices of President, the TAXATION) AMENDMENT BILL Governors ...... The Minister of Revenne and Civil Mr. Chairman: As a matter of fact, Expenditure (Siiri M. C. Shah) : I beg the information that the hon. Member to m ove: wants to elicit is ; how many have vo “That the Bill further to amend luntarily surrendered their salaries. the Voluntary Surrender of Salaries (Exemption from Taxation) Act, Shri M. C. Shah : The President has 1950, be taken into consideration.” surrendered. And if I remember aright, when the Act was passed in 1950, some This is a very simple Bill. As hon. of the Ministers also surrendered their Members are aware, under the Income- salaries by Rs. 250 or Rs. 500—that is tax Act a person is liable to pay income- subject to correction. Now the Presi tax and super-tax on his entire salary in dent has surrendered his entire allowan cluding the allowances and perquisites ces. due to him notwithstanding the fact that he has chosen to surrender a part of Shri S. S. M ore : It is only the Presi the entire salary. Therefore, there was dent—for whom we have great respect an Act passed in the year 1950 allow ■—who has taken advantage of that par ing exemption from income-tax on the ticular Act and none else? part of the salary that was surrendered. Mr. Chairman : llie hon. Minister There are certain offices to which says, the President and some Ministers emoluments are fixed by the Constitu also. tion as well as by Acts—Central and Shri S. S. M ore : May I r^uest the State. We are advised that ‘salary’ does Minister through you. Sir, to circulate to not include allowances and perquisites. us, if possible, a complete list of the Therefore, even if the allowances are names of persons who have surrendered surrendered—allowances which are there their salaries, what part of their salaries under the Constitution or under Acts of they have surrendered, so that we can the Centre or the States—though the go about telling other people to surren person who holds that office desires to der some of their salaries also ? surrender or surrenders a part of that allowance or perquisite or the whole of Mr. Chairman : This is not applicable it, still because they are there under the to other persons. 241 Voluntary Swrttidet of Salnnes {Exm- 18 FEBRUARY 1956 University Grants Commission 242 piion jrom Taxation) Amendment Bill Bill Shrl M. C. Shah : There seems to be The Enacting Formula, as amended some misunderstanding on the part of was added to the Bill. my hon. friend, Shri More. Under the The Title was added to the Bill. present Indian Income-tax Act, when ever a s a l^ is attached to an office by the Constitution or by an Act of the Shri M. C. Shah : I beg to move : Centre or the States, those salaries, “That the Bill, as amended, be though surrendered, are liable to in passed.” come-tax. Therefore, this applies only to certain Acts passed by the Centre, that Mr. Chairman : The question is : is, in regard to Ministers. Speaker and “That the Bill, as amended, be Deputy-Speaker, Chairman and Deputy passed.” Chairman in the Centre, Speaker, The motion was adopted. Deputy-Speaker and the Ministers in Part A and B States. It does not apply to others. It applies to those offices UNIVERSITY GRANTS where the emoluments are attached by COMMISSION BILL the Act or by the Constitution. Even if the holders of those offices do not take THie Parliamentary Secretary to the the entire emolument or part of it as Minister of Education (Dr. M. M. prescribed in the Constitution or the D as) : On behalf of the hon. Minister Act, they are liable to income-tax under of Education. Maulana Abul Kalam the Income-tax Act. That is why this Azad, I beg to move that the following Bill has been brought forward. It is not a amendments made by Rajya Sabha in question now of going to all officers and the Bill to make provision for the co asking them to surrender their salaries. ordination and determination of stand In that case, the salaries will be, not sur- ards in Universities and for. that pur ren'dered but brought down. pose, to establish a University Grants Commission, be taken into considera tion ; Mr. Chalnnaii ; The question i s : ■Clause 2 “That the Bill further to amend the Voluntary Surrender of Salaries (1) That at page 2, lines 7-8 for (Exemption from Taxation) Act, tion oF’ the words “in consultation 1950, be taken into consideration.” with” be substituled. The motion was adopted. Clause 5 Clause 2 was added to the Bill. (2) That at page 2, line 36, for the word “number” the words Clause 1.— {Short Title ) “total num ber” be substituted.” Amendment made : The Lok Sabha may recollect that the Page 1, and 4— for “ 1955” substi Joint Committee’s Report on the Uni tute “ 1956”. versity Grants Commission Bill came up — [Shri M. C. Shah] for consideration in this House on November 23, 1955, and the Bill was Mr. Chairman : The question is : passed on the 28th November, with “That clause 1, as amended, some important amendments. The Bill as stand part of the Bill.” passed by this House was transmitted The motion was adopted. to Rajya Sabha, who took up the Bill and passed it in their sitting on the 7th Clause 1.— (Short Title) December 1955 with two amendments. the Bill. These two amendments are as follows. Enacting Formula The first amendment made by Rajya Amendment made : Sabha is in clause 2, sub-clause (f). Page 1, line 1— for “Sixth This sub-clause, as passed by Lok Y ear substitute “Seventh Year”. Sabha, defines the word “University” — [Shri M. C. Shah] as follows: Mr. Chairman : The question i s : ‘ “University” means a University established or incorporated by or “That the Enacting Formula, as under a Central Act, a Provincial amended, stand part of the Bill." Act or a State Act, and includes The motion was adopted. any such institution as may, on the 243 UmtitTsity Granta 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Commission Bill 244 recommendation of ther University 1 have explained to this august House concerned, be recognised by the the nature, contents and implications of Commission in accordance with the these two amendments which were made regulations made in this behalf by the Rajya Sabha in passing this Bill. under this Act.’ 1 hope that this House will agree to, and The main purpose of this sub-clause accept these two amendments. was to bang affiliated and constituent Mr. Chairman : Motion moved : colleges under the purview of the Uni “That the following amendments versity Grants Commission for giving made by Rajya Sabha in the Bill grants whenever the funds permit. It to make provision for the co-ordi will be obvious from the definition that nation and determination of stan an affiliated or a constituent college of dards in Universities and for that a University can be recognised by the purpose, to establish a University University Grants Commission as a Uni Grants Commission, be taken into versity for giving grants if only one consideration: condition is fulfilled. This condition is that the University concerned should re Clause 2 commend to the University Grants (1) That at page 2, lines 7-8 for Commission that the college—whether the words “on the recommendation constituent or affiliated—may be recog of” the words “in consultation nised as a University for giving finan with” be substituted. cial aid. During the discussion of this Clause 5 sub-clause in the Rajya Sabha, . hon. (2) That at page 2, line 36, for Members felt that it was just and pro the word "number” the words per that the University concerned should “total num ber” be substituted.’ have a say in this particular matter but it is necessary that the University Shrimati Renu ChalGravartty (Basir- Grants Commission should have the hat) ; May 1 just ask for a clarification initiative and final authority to recog with regard to the substitution of the nise any affiliated college or constituent words “on the recommendation of’ by college as a University for giving grants. the words “in consultation with”. On the Accordingly, the expression “in consul one hand, it opens up the scope of such tation with" was substituted for the colleges which may not have got a re expression “on the recommendation of” commendation of the University but in this sub-clause. which, in the larger interest, it may be considered, should also get help from The second amendment made by the the University Grants Commission. By Rajya Sabha is in the proviso to clause the substitution of these words, will it 5, sub-clause (2). This amendment, so mean that it will be open to the Govern far as 1 am aware, does not make any ment to refuse any particular institution material change in the provisions of the which the univeisity has recommended? clause, but it helps in understanding Will it be left to the discretion of the the meaning of the clause more clearly Government to give grants or not? It and in removing any ambiguity that was works both ways. This particular supposed to exist in the minds of the amendment on the one hand widens the hon. Members of the Rajya Sabha. It scope of giving grants to institutions was not clear from the provision as it which may not have been directly re emerged from the Lok Sabha whether commended by the universities and on this proviso applied to the whole of sub the other hand there is scope for it to clause (2) or only to the third item of refuse to give grants to those which have sub-clause (2). However, it was obvious been recommended by the university. from the Report of the Joint Committee that the intention of the latter was that Dr. M. M. Das : I appreciate the out of the remaining number of mem anxiety of the hon. lady Member about bers of the University Grants Commis this question of grants to affiliated col sion, as provided in item (c) of sub leges. The question is one of finance clause (2), at least one half should be and resources that are entrusted to the non-officials. The Rajya Sabha Mem University Grants Commission. If funds bers in their wisdom decided that in the permit, then the Commission will be total number of members of the Uni glad to Rive the required financial aid versity Grants Commission at least one to the affiliated and constituent colleges. half of them should be non-officials. In But the point is that sufficient funds are view of this decision, the word “total” not available at present. By this provi was added before the word “number” in sion the door for inclusion of collegM, line 36 on page 2 of the Bill. has been kept open. If the University 245 Unuersity Grants 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Comsnitsion Bill 246 [Dr. M. M. Das] Dr. M. M; Das: So far as this par ticular amendment is concerned, the Grants Commission thinks it proper that words “on the recommendation o f’ are a particular institution or a constituent being substituted by the words “in con college should be given some financial sultation with". The Commission will aid, they may ^ve some aid to that have to consult the university and elicit particular institution. the opinion of the university for giving grants to a particular institutidn but they Mr. Cjialrman : The question is quite are not bound by the decision of the different. These words are capable of university or their views. They will have being interpreted in two ways: is the the fullest authority to give the grant University Grants Commission bound to or not. accept the recommendation or not? It is quite clear that the powers are en Mr. Chaimiaii : I will now put the larged. 1 think the interpretation should motion to the vote of the Lok Sabha. be that they shall have both the power to reject the recommendation or to give The question is : grants to any college in consultation "That the following amend with them and not on their recom ments made by Rajya Sabha in the mendation. Even if the university does Bill to make provision for the co not recommend the Commission will ordination and determination of be able to give grants according to this standards in Universities and for amendment. They shall be able to do that purpose, to establish a Univer both according to the ordinary meaning sity'Grants Commission, be taken of these words. The hon. Member wants into consideration : to know the hon. Minister’s interpreta tion. That is her question. But, as a mat ‘Cbinse 2 ter of fact, if this is passed it will not be possible to interpret it otherwise. The in (1) That at page 2, line^ 7-8 for terpretation will be quite clear. Both the words “on the recommendation ways the Commission would get the o f’ the words “in consultation with” power. They will not be bound to accept be substituted. any recommendation. They will only Clause 5 consult but they will come to indepen (2) That a page 2, line 36, for dent conclusions whether the grant is to the word “number” the words be given or not. “total number” be substituted.” Shrimati Renu Chakravartty : I my The motion was adopted. self was feeling that that would be the real interpretation of this rather innocu Dr. M. M. Das : I beg to move; ous looking amendment because it does “That the amendments made by give the power to the Government to Rajya Sabha in the Bill be agreed reject any recommendation which may to”. have been made by the university. That, I personally think, is not a good provi Mr. Chafanian : The question is : sion because, however limited may be “That the amendments made by the scope of the funds available to the Rajya Sabha in the Bill be agreed University Grants Commission, when a to.” university recommends anything there must have been consultations also—but The motion was adopted. once a recommendation has been made by the university, no power should he Dr. M. M. Das : 1 may draw your ^ven to the Commission to reject out attention to certain minor points. The right that recommendation. I do sup words “Sixth Year” in the Enacting port the idea that there may be certain Formula will have to be substituted by cases where though the university may the words “Seventh Year”. not have directly recommended a certain Again on page 1, line 6, for the year thing, in the larger interests it may be 1955, 1956 has to be substituted. On that the Commission may have powers behalf of the hon. Speaker, you may also to provide funds for such mstitu- take it up. tions. I also agree with that. But I am against giving any powers to the Uni Mr. Chairman : This is a minor mat versity Grants Commission for the re ter which is in the discretion of the jection of the recommendation by the Chair. It is just a consequential amend universities. ment which may be taken up in the 247 Indi an Red Crus 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Socitly {Amendment) Bill 248 Kajya Sabha by the Chairman and here adopted by branches in the States for also when this is passed, it will be taken the purpose of ensuring the harmonious into consideration. I am told that it is development of Red Cross Services all in the discretion of the Speaker under over the country, as well as to enable rule 130. the Society to affiliate to itself Societies fornifed in territories outside the Indian Dr. M. M. Das: 1 understand that Union. I might mention that the Red it is not possible to take up these two Cross Society in Sikkim has asked to matters here. It may be done by the affiliate itself to the Indian Red Cross Speaker. It is not necessary to bring Society. We would like to do so but again this Bill before Rajya Sabha or unless we put in that particular amend Lok Sabha on account of these two ment it cannot be done. There is noth points. ing controversial in this. Mr. Cbaimum : H as the h0n. M em I have received just now an amend ber tabled an amendment to this effect ? ment sent by an hon. Member in which he has raised the question why we Dr. M. M. Dfls: It is in your discre should not transfer the specified amount tion. to the Government of India requesting the Government to get the said amount Mr. Chairman ; Under rule 130, this paid to the Pakistan Red Cross Society will be done by the Speaker. We pro by the Pakistan Government from the ceed to the next item on the agenda. funds which the Pakistan Government owes to the Government of India. Before I brought this Bill before this Sabha I consulted, naturally, the Fin INDIAN RED CROSS SOCIETY ance Ministry and the Law Ministry (AMENDMENT) BILL about this procedure but we came to the The Minfeter of Health (Rajkumari conclusion that the procedure proposed Amrlt Kaur): I beg to move ; to be adopted in the Bill now before the Sabha was the best. So I am unable “That the Bill further to amend to accept that amendment and as it has the Indian Red Cross Society Act, only just come in it is not really eligible. 1920, be taken into consideration.” That is all I have to say in regard to My main object in having brought this. this Bill before this hon. Lok Sabha is because we have to apportion to Pakis Mr. Chairman : Motion moved ; tan the sums in the Red Cross fund “That the Bill further to amend that are due to that country. As a the Indian Red Cross Society Act, result of the partition of India in 1920, be taken into consideration.” August 1947, it has become necessary to amend the Red Cross Society Act, Shrl U. M. Trivedi (Chittor); Mr. 1920 in order to authorise the Indian Chairman, the hon. Minister has Red Cross Society to partition its cor explained to us that an hon. Member pus and allied funds with the Pakistan has written to her raising the question Red Cross Society and to transfer the as to why arrangements should not be share due to the latter in accordance made to transfer this money to the with the terms mutually agreed between Government of India and thereafter to the two Societies, the Indian Red Cross make the payment or make the neces Society being at the same time dis sary adjustments with the Pakistan Gov charged from all obligations imposed ernment. We have to get a good deal by the Act in respect of the areas in from the Pakistan Government and we Pakistan. That is the main purpose of are quite ill at ease about the payments this Bill. which are to be received from the Pakistan Government. We have always As the Bill had to be amended to been acting as a big brother to Pakistan fulfil the obligations that rest on the and always discharging our obligations Indian Red Cross Society in this regard, from time to time in a very honest the executive of the Indian Red Cross manner. There will be nothing immoral Society also took advantage of this about making an arrangement of the opportunity to make some very minor nature which has been suggested. By amendments to section 5 of the existing virtue of this Bill we have shown in Act which would enable the parent body the Third Schedule that we have to to have a certain amount of control make available an amount of nearly over the management and procedure Rs. 44 lakhs to the Pakistan Red Cross 249 Indian Red Cross 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Society (AmenJmenl) Bill 250 IShri U. M. Trivedi] proper control over the branches of the Society. It is really a charitable work Society. This amendment, I think, is in which is being done ; there is no doubt the right direction and I support it. about it. But, at the same time contrac tual obligations are contractual obliga Again I heartily congratulate the Red tions and monetary considerations are Crpss Society for the services it has always monetary considerations. There rendered. We are all aware of the good cannot be two opinions about it. When services rendered by our Society in we are putting an embargo upon the Korea and the people have always transfer of such monies from our praised the Indian Red Cross Society. country to Pakistan and Pakistan does 1 am glad that by this Bill we are going not al ow even the best of their own to create an atmosphere of goc^will traders and merchants to come to India with our neighbours. with more than Rs. 50, why are we so charitable enough at our own cost to Dr. Ratoia R a o : May I make a sub transfer Rs. 44 lakhs to Pakistan 7 mission, Sir? You know, yesterday just before closing in the evening it was Therefore, my suggestion is that the announced that there will be a sitting amendment th^t has been suggested by today. But, we knew that this Bill will that hon. Member to the hon. Minister come on the agenda only this nlorning. may be accepted and that this Rs. 44 lakhs might be given over to the Gov Mr. Chairman : W as it not on the ernment of India to be paid over or agenda previously? adjusted when the accounts are to be adjusted between the two Govern Dr. Rama Rao : No, Sir. That agenda ments. was not for today. Mr. Chairman : What I am asking is Dr. Rama Rao (Kakinada): Does whether this Bill was on ‘the agenda the amendment stand as moved ? before or not ? Mr. Chaimian : The amendment has Dr. Rama Rao : It was on the agenda been suggested only just now. The hon. for probably six months or even one Minister has not accepted the amend year. ment. I cannot, therefore, allow the amendment to be moved. If he wants Mr. Chairman: Was it not there to speak I can allow him to do so. during these days of this session. Dr. Rama Rao : May I make a sub Dr. Rama Rao : N ot as far as I mission ? know. Mr. Chairman : I am calling Shri- Mr. Ctiairman :But, w hat is the mati Jayashri. His submission will be actual position ? made after the hon. Member has spoken. Shri U . M. Trivedi: Previously 18th Shrimatl Jayashri (Bombay—Subur was declared a holiday. ban) : Mr. Chairman, I support the Bill moved by the hon. Minister. I take Mr. Chaimian : Was it not there on this opportunity to praise the good the agenda for yesterday ? I only want work that has been done by our Red to know whether it was on the agenda Cross Society. This is one body which for 16th, 17th or 18th? tries for the establishment of peace and goodwill among all the nations and it Shri U . M. Trivedi: T hat agenda IS but fair that we should take this was only up to the 17th. opportunity of returning the money to Pakistan, which was once part of India. Mr. Clialnnan : 1 only want to know whether it was on the agenda for the The amendment that Rajkumari wants 16th, 17th or 18th? to suggest to clause 5 is also desirable. We know that in times of emergency, Sardar A. S. Saiga! (Bilaspur); It during floods and famine, the Red Cross was on the agenda for the 17th. Society has to take up emergency servi ces and render help throughout the Mr. Chairman : Then the hon. country. So, in order to keep up one Member could have sent in his amend standard of service there should be ment. 251 Indian Rid Crosr 18 FEBRUARY 1956 SoeUty (AauaJmnt) Bill 252 Sliri U. M. Trivedi: But, tha^agesdti Now, I come to the Bill. The amend was only up to the 17th. ment given notice of by me is very simple. My hon. friend Shri U. M. Sardar A. S. Salgal: Yesterday, Trivedi has already spoken and I do not the Deputy-Speaker announced that know whether his arguments in sup the House will meet today and that other port of my amendment will be accepted subjects on.the agenda will be taken. or not. But still, the simple fact is, I am not objecting to the payment. I am Mr. Chairman: Order, order. The not asking even a pie to be reduced onjy point is whether it was on the from the payment. The only objection is agenda on the 16th or 17th. If it was about the suggestion in respect of the there then the hon. Member was in a method of payment. I do not know why position to send in his amendment. Government can raise any serious objec Therefore, I am sorry I cannot allow it tion to it, namely, the method of pay now. ment that 1 have suggested. There are so many payments. The Government Dr. Rania Ilao: My submission is of India and the Pakistan Government this. We knew that this Bill will be can be treated m this case as banks. We taken up today only this morning. pay an amount here and that amount is debited there. Therefore, I do not know Mr. Chairman; When it was on the the reason why the Government should agenda on the 17th the hon. Member not accept this method of payment and could have tabled his amendment on save this ready cash. That is all I wish that day- to say. I fully support this Bill. Dr. Rama Rao: But, ihcrc were Pandit C. N. Malviya (Raisen): I other matters for that day. Why I am support the Bill. Although I appreciate saying tliis i% this. Because the change the political significance of the amend has suddenly nade this a working day ment, the Red Cross Society is a non the Government stands on a technical political body and the purpose of the objection. Let the amendment be society is to serve the injured and the thrown out that is another matter. They disabled people. So, we should not take do not want to accept the a.'nendment into consideration the political side of on the technical objection that it was it. W'e are not giving this money to the given notice of only today. 1 gave notice Government of Pakistan to utilise it for of my amendment only today because some political or economic purposes. 1 camc to know this morning only that We are transferring the money to the the Bill will be coming up today. people of Pakistan. We may have some differences with the Goveriiment of Mr. Chairn^:in : So far us ihe Minis Pakistan, but we have no dif ter is concc^:/.^:l she h:;s been pleased ferences with the people of Pa to consider fhe amendment and give kistan and I wonder why any politi some grounds for rejectin;> it. But, so cal consideration should hare occurred far as the rulc'; of the Lnk Sabha are in the minds of some people when we concerned I hound to say that the believe in the unity of tho people. practice in i‘ie Sabha hns been—and Therefore, I submit that this polit cal the hon. Member knows it fully well— side of the amendment shou’d not be that if an amendment is given notice of pressed. We should wholeheartedly and on the very day the Bi 1 is taken up unanimously support the Bill. then, only if the amendment is going to be accepted it is allowed to be moved HTTTt qo and not otherwise. I can quite see the importance of the amendment myself, ^ ^ ^ ^ but at the same time I am unable to allow it according to the rules. If the rule is waived here it shall have to be 1 1 ^ ^ ^ i m i waived in other cases also. Therefore, he can speak on this. ^ ^ nf «f|- ufk D r. Rama Rao i Before speaking on this Bill itself, I would request the IT? ' Speaker that before changing the pro gramme, there must be a greater consi ^ ^ % anrr smr ^ aft 4m deration of such inconveniences to the Members. f Lok Sabha. 253 Indian Rtd Cross 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Socitlj {Anundnunt) Bill 254 ??ft ?R J % *R I 5ftr >ft T O R ^ v f h f t ’5^r?ftmTft- % ST^ ^Rft t I f w 5Trar t ^ ^ ^ Jf’fv ^ ^r^ft^fT f J T ^ TW WK ^ ’fro ¥l^TT^ im H^rrsr g 'R h f t ^ ^ ^ * f ^ ' *FT5iT 1 1 'Tiw ^ mr % ?kR # ^ ^ j » f k ^ ^ TTff SPT^TT ^ lf§lT I j^fsr^ ^ ^ «|ray(T ^ Dr. Suresh Chtindra (Aurangabad); I have no doubt that every Member V f ! ^ fw 3TT T?r «IT ^ ^ m r j v ^ - of this House will support this 3TW ITT ^ fPT # «InftT ^ amending Bill and so 1 need not say much about it. I oppose 3 w ’n r ^ JTT^ ^r «ft ^ the amendment which has been referred to, because that smells of some politics TO % HTT ^ ^ ^ TMbTt in humanitarian work. Those of us «ft I v t r f b i t ^ IT? ^ «TT who have had the opportunity of visit ing other countries and who have known % 5?rnvT ^ aft TO ITRT ir?t 77: something of the international Red Cross know very well what reputation »ft TO % ftr ^ Shri U . M. TUredl t Has this money Mr. Chaimuui: The question is: paid already? been “T hat clause 1, as amended, Rajkmnari Amrit Kaur t No. stands part of the Bill." ' The motion was adopted. Mr. Ctaalnnan: The question is : “That the Bill to provide for Clause 1 as amended, was added the transfer of a portion of the to the Bill. funds of the St. John Ambulance Enacting Formula Association (India) to the St. John Amendment made : Page I, line 1, Ambulance Association (Pakistan), be taken into consideration." fo r “Sixth Year” substitute “Seventh The m otion H’flj adopted. Y ear”. Clause 2. and the Schedule — [Rajkumari Amrit Kaur] Dr. Rama Rao (Kakinada): May 1 Mr. Chairman t The question is: say a word, Sir ? I support the Bill as it "That the Enacting Formula, as is. Regarding the transfer of the amended, and the Title stand part amount, our friend there seems to be of the Bill.” under a misapprehension about our sug gestion. The suggestion is not to deprive The motion was adopted. the St. John Ambulance Association The Enacting Formula, as amended, or the Red Cross of even one pie. I and the Title were added to the Bill. repeat it, I have already said that. What we want is, we have plenty of money Rajkumari Amrit Kaur : I beg to there. We want it to be paid to the St. m o v e: John Ambulance Association and the “That the Bill, as amended, be Red Cross there from those funds. passed.” Sardar Hukam Singh : But, the banker Mr. Chairman : The question is is not so honest. “That the Bill, as amended, be Dr. Rama Rao : He is anticipating passed.” me. I would go one step further. The The motion was adopted. Red Cross and the St. John Ambulance Association, India au: responsible to pay to the other bodies. If those orga ALL-INDIA INSTITUTE OF nisations do not get money from the MEDICAL SCIENCES BILL Pakistan Government, we can pay it later on. Let us at least try to ask the Pa The minister of Health (Rajkumari kistan Government to pay out of our Amrit Kaur): I beg to move : huge am ount. T hat is my f>oint. O ur “That the Bill to provide for the friend there smells politics in this. There establishment of an All-India is no politics. Only there is a little Institute of Medical Sciences, be money and if we could get the Pakistan taken into consideration.” Government pay on our behalf, that would solve our problem. I am not in 1 think all the Members of the Lok favour of allowing the Red Cross or the Sabha are aware of the scheme to bring St. John Ambulance Association to run into being the All-India Institute of the risk of losing one pie. Any way, I Medical Sciences. The money for this support the Bill. has been allocated in our budget for the last 3 or 4 years. It was actually owing Mr. Chairman : The question is : to the generous donation from the New “That clause 2 and the Schedule Zealand Government under the stand part of the Bill.” Colombo Plan of £1,250,000,000 that The motion was adopted. the Government of India was enabled to begin to bring this Institute into being. Clause 2 and the Schedule were added It has been one of my cherished dreams to the Bill that for post-graduate study and for the maintenance of high standards of medi Clause 1. cal education in our country, we should Amendment made : Page 1, line 4, have an institute of this nature in India fo r “ 1955” substitute “ 1956”. which would enable our young men and women to have their post-graduate edu —■[Raikumari Amrit Kaur\ cation in their own country, in their 261 Alt-Iiidia IS FEBRUARY 1956 InsHtutf — [Rajkumari Amrit Kaur] be on post-graduate study and SMciali- .ution, because one reason for our background with the necessary experi inability to fulfil the desire of so many ence that we would all like to have of States today to have medical colleges is work in villages and the impetus that the lack of personnel. One of the main we would like to give to them to do duties of this Medical Institute will be research in the various spheres of medi to prepare personnel for medical col cal education. leges which it is becoming increasingly hard for us to get. I may inform the Medical education, in its theory as Members that when the States ask for well as in its practice, is based on the medical colleges to be started, nearly utilisation of the contributions from the always they have to go to retired per other physical and biological sciences. sonnel to carry on. How long we go on With the continued progress that has relying on retired personnel ? It is been taking place in both these fields, absolutely essential that we creatc young modern medicine has made and is men and young women of the highest making enormous strides towards calibre who will be able to man our increasing efficiency in regard to diag educational institutions, in particular. nosis and in regard to treatment and This demand, as I have said, is increas prevention of disease, as well as promo ing. I would now like to mention one tion of positive health. Therefore, the or two special features of this Institute. task of medical education, by and large, is to utilise as far as possible this new The system that prevails of private knowledge in training the doctor of the practice being permitted to doctors in future. Medical education must, above medical colleges has, in my opinion,— all. take into account the special needs I know I have many people differ from of the country from the point of view me. especially members of the medical of affording health protection to the profession—had a deleterious effect on people. For instance, in our own coun the development of both siound teach try, and in Asian countries in generally ing and active research in colleges. And the continued prevalence of various therefore, in order to prohibit in this forms of preventible causes of sickness Institute, which is the first of its kind and suffering necessitates special empha in our country and the first of its kind sis, if 1 may so put it, on the preven in Asia, private practice of every form tive aspect of medical care. Further, and to pay the doctors reasonably high the extent to which the future doctor salaries to compensate them for the loss will contribute his share to the well of private practice, is going to be a being of the country also depends on special feature. The doctors, if they are the extent to which he develops a com paid enough, will then be able to live munity outlook and a desire to serve contentedly and to devote their whole the people. Medical education, more time to the promotion not only of teach over, is receiving considerable attention ing, not only of serving the patients in all the progressive countries of the who come to the hospitals, but also to world. I have had the privilege recently what is very important, namely research. to see what is being done in the U.S.A., Then, all the staff and students are in the U.S.S.R., in Scandinavia, and going to be housed in the campus of the even in the U.K. and the various steps Institute. The campus of the Institute that are being pursued to bring it more is proceeding ahead fairly rapidly and and more into consonance with present I shall welcome any Members of this day needs and to promote an increasing House who would like, to come and realisation of the object of equipping have a look at the campus to see for the future doctor to give of his b^t to themselves how things are going on. the community. India cannot afford to keep apart from this broad and steady 4 P.M. programme of development that is taking place in other parts of the world. Dr. Suresh Chandra (Aurangabadj: The idea of the establishment of this Where is this ? All-India Institute is to fulfil the pur poses which I have mentioned. Rajkumari Amrit Kaur: It is in Delhi just beyond the Safdarjang aero I need not go into the details about drome. how the Institute will function. It is first going to start with a medical Also I feel that by housing the staff training centre which will provide and the students on the campus, we under-graduate study to only a very v e n shall be reverting to and taking advan limited few. The major emphasis will tage of what I oielieve has been one of 263 All-lnSa 18 FEBRUARY 1956 InsHtuU o f Mtiical Scitncts Bill 264 the traditional good things in our coun the teaching staff and students, and I try, that is the Guru-sishya relationship believe it will be their devotion to duty, which has, in my opinion, not been their desire to promote their work and given that attention that it should be the spirit of altruism that will actuate given. Further, I want every student them to subordinate personal considera whether under-graduate or post-graduate tions, as I believe the noble profession to have ample opportunities to partici of medicine should do, to the fulfilment pate in both urban and rural health of the objectives to be achieved that work, in rural centres as well as in the will eventually create and maintain the cities. 1 want the student even during atmosphere which is necessary for an his student days to participate and take Institute like this. I therefore do hope some responsibility for the health of that in presenting this Bill for accept those who will later on be committed ance by Parliament today, the legal to his charge, because I feel that that structure that is created may facilitate will promote in him early in his career the progressive realisation of a steady a community outlook and also promote development of improved methods of powers of initiative and observation medical education in this Institute and and of drawing conclusions from them. that, through the influence it exerts, the standards of different forms of profes When I was in America year before sional training in the field of health last, one thing struck me greatly. I was throughout the country will be raised. listening in to a fourth year student who was not yet qualified giving a With these few words I commend this complete history of the case wnich had measure to the acceptance of this House. been put in his charge. In America much more responsibility is being laid ^ Mr. Chairman : Motion moved : on students once they get towards the “That the Bill to provide for the last year of, their stay in a college. establishment of an All-India Institute of Medical Sciences, be Then, of course, this Institute will be taken into consideration.” given the powers and functions of a university because it will probably make fin m t fifw ()fnT?T ^ : revolutionary changes, as I hope, in curriculum as well as in modes of teach ^ aft ing, and therefore I feel that in the first »mn>TfeTT t, ^ 3 ^ 'Pn't instance, at any rate, the university status given to this Institute will permit It to give diplomas to all the students Mr. Chairman: The hon. Member who pass out of its portals. Of course, knows that only one hour has been they will be recognised qualifications allotted to this Bill, and he wants a and they will have to be put down in copy. The copy cannot be circulated the Indian Medical Council Act, an all at once. It requires time. What is amendment to which I hope very soon the use of getting the copy? to introduce in this House. Sardar Hukam Singh (Kapurthala- Subject to such minimum control as Bhatinda): He wants a copy of the the Government of India may exercise Bill for future use. through its rule-making powers, the Institute will enjoy a large measure of Rajkumarl Amrlt Kaur: May I say autonomy in order that it may fulfil the that I have not got a copy of what I objectives — 1 humbly claim that they are said ? I had notes certainly, but not a very fine objective—which I have tried copy of what I said. to set forth in this brief survey. The arrr iHtvpr ^ Government of India will, of course, make itself responsible for providing 'm r m 3TT^, ^ ^ 4# adequate funds for the maintenance of >WT sp?T I I the Institute, but I hope that philan thropy also will tome to tlie aid, as it so if. ^ TO : ^ ^ ^ often does, of such institutions because, after all, serving the cause of sick and suffering humanity is always something Dr. Rama Rao (Kakinada): It may that appeals to those who would like to be circulated at least to the Members, give. that is what he wants. The future of the Institute will lie Mr. Chairman: He really wanted to ultimately in the hands of the Director, know the import of what the hon, the Professors and other memhm of Minister has said. That is all. 265 All-M ia 18 FEBRUARY 1936 ItulituU ({f Mtdical Scimeu Bill 266 D r. Rama Rao : 1 have great pleasure hope the pace will be quickened and the in supporting this Bill and welcoming institute will start functioning very the introduction of this Bill even quickly. at this late hour. It ought to have been done much earlier. You know, Sir, The Health Minister expects, and I the foundation stone of this Institute join with her when she says so, that was laid in Irwin Hospital several years there will be revolutionaij changes ago. In this connection, I want to con brought about by this institute. We gratulate the hon. Health Minister on hope that there will be very efficient the future possibility of the abolition of post-graduate technical personnel. I this Part C State of Delhi, so that, apart would suggest that one of the most from other things, Irwin Hospital also important revolutionary changes should will come directly under the Central be the minimising of the medical college Government, and 1 hope she will be fees and expenses. You know very well able to develop a separate medical col that one of the costliest courses of edu lege for under-graduate students in cation in India today is the medical college education. Sincc a very huge Irwin Hospital. She is very particular in saying that the under-graduate will be am ount will have to be spent, it is only very, very few in this Institute which the rich people who can afford it. I is mainly meant for post-graduate train would therefore suggest that while they ing so that the Institute can train teach should make the admission strict, they ing personnel for various institutions in should not take any college fees at all, or if they want, they should take only the country. The intention of the Insti tute, 1 understand, is to minimise the very nominal fees. Secondly, they should necessity of our doctors to go abroad subsidise the hostel and other charges, for post-graduate training and to give &11 so that the medical college education those facilities here so that various uni will not be a bugbear and will not be the privilege of only a few. versity medical colleges can have well- qualified, well-trained personnel from I hope that while the education pro the Central Institute. Of course, that is vided will be of a very high standard, a good thing. I have no quarrel wiih it will not cost much. The Minister that, and I fully support it and I a brought in the analogy, and a very goixl glad they are doing it now. But I wouid analogy at that, of our former gurus request the hon. Minister to remember and shhhyas. But you will recall that that even ordinary education is very our former shishyas were not put to any limited now. The chances for admis expense at all. All that they had to do sion are very few and the graduates was to go to the guru, whether he was that are trained are quite insufficient in at Banaras or any other place, and number. So, I hope the Health Ministry then say T am here’, and learn from will consider this proposal, even from him. now, to build up a separate medical college. I hope the Minister will remember the analogy that she was brought in, and see that the institute becomes a real gum kula where the students will As it is, there is an expression in the not have to get huge money orders and Bill itself that the object is to run one bank cheques. or more iiicdical colleges. So, there is very great scope to develop another I do not know why they want to medical college in Irwin Hospital. It is provide for the teaching of humanities not only for the teaching of medical also to the under-graduates. It is not students that I want a medical college that I have any objection to that, but here. When we have a teaching hospital I feel that it is not necessary. We are the standard of medical treatment and goinc to have very experienced officers medical attention is automatically m charge of this institute, and I have raised. The huge population of Delhi no doubt that they will develop the and New Delhi will have at a very con institute in the normal way, and by venient place a very high standard of experience, they will make it perfect. medical attention in the medical college hospital, if I may say so, the Irwin I congratulate the Minister on her having brought forward this Bill. I sup Medical College Hospital. I hope the port this Bill. Health Ministry will remember this, and build up that medical college hospital Shri u ; M. Trivedl (Chittor); The from now on. Of course, the other meaning of the word humanity may institute is already developing, and I kindly be explained by the Minister. 267 All-India 10 FF.BRUARY; 1956 InslUuU oj Mtdical SJtnits Bill 268 Mr. ChalnnaB : It is ‘humanities’ and India is a large country. As has been not ‘humanity*. said ali'cudy, India is a sub-continent. Shri T. S. 'A. Chetdar (Tiruppur): At And Delhi is far to the north. There the outset, I would like to say a word fore, it is necessary that we should pro on the last point that has been raised vide post-graduate courses in places by the previous speaker. The trend of like Madras (where large medical expe experience has been that in our tech rience is available), Calcutta and Bombay nical and medical institutions, some so that those regions also may be amply study of humanities is necessary, in provided with the necessary facilities. order that the students may become I hope this provision in the Bill, namely human. That is what has been found that the institute will be located in New to be necessary by experience. In engi Delhi, will not mean that the facilities neering colleges where the students which I he Central Government intend deal only with machines all the time, to provide will be denied to those regi and in institutions where they study ons. 1 understand that that is not the sciences, they are not able to appreciate intention, but I hope the Minister will the human qualities which are embedded make it amply clear that this provision in the highest literature that the world will not, and should not, mean that has produced. It is with a view to mak there will l>e no facilities provided for ing them more efficient men that this post-graduate courscs in the colleges sort of studies has been recommended in those regions. in many of these technical institutions. I would now like to make a reference I now come to sub-clause (f) of to one or two clauses. There are one clause IS, which contemplates the estab or two matters on which I have a few lishment of a variety of institutions de apprehensions. Clause 4 of the Bill pro voted to the study of the medical scien vides for ttve composition of the insti ces. Hospitals are absolutely necessary. tute. But we do not know how many Then, there is provision for establishing will be officials and how many will bo a dental college, a nursing college, and non-officials. In the University Grants rural and urban health organisations. Commission Bill which we had passed Now, it will be found very difficult to recently, we had specifically provided provide all these things within New that the majority of the members will Delhi. Clause 13 says that the institute be non-officials. I would very much like shall be located in New Delhi. Institute that there is a similar provision made would include any part of th 6 institute here also. But there is no time now also. Therefore, the provision in sub to table any amendment in that regard. clause (f) of clause 15 would mean that But I do hope, however, that the Mi all these affiliated institutions also nister will give us an assurance in this should be located in New Delhi, but regard, for we find that the whole lot it will be found very difficult to estab is beinp nominated by the Government lish all these things in New Delhi. There of India. There is a good number of are other places where these institu non-officials, doctors and scientists, who tions can be located, but the provision will be available for being appointed in clause 13 may mean that we shall to this institute. To my mind, it ay)ears have to have them within in New Delhi. that to have a majority of non-officials The Minister is shaking her head, but 1 is always a healthy convention, for that hope we shall know what she has to will ensure that the people who are there say. will not be persons who will act accord ing to orders given, written or other wise. 1 now come to another important clause, namely sub-clause (4) of clause In clause 13, it is provided th.it the 19, which reads ; institute shall be located in New Delhi. But we find in clause 14(b) that one of the objects of the institute shall be : ’The accounts of the Institute as certified by the Comptroller “to bring together in one place and Auditor-General of India or educational facilities of the highest any other person appointed by him order for the training of personnel in this behalf together with the in all important branches of health audit report thereon shall be for activity warded annually to the Central This is certainly a great addition. But Government and that Government this gives rise to an apprehension in my shall cause the same to be laid mind. before both Houses of Parliament.” 269 All-ImHa 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Institute o f Mtdicnl Scitncis Bill 270 (Shri T. s. A. Chettiar] shall be forwarded to the Central Gov This is the usual provision that obtains ernment, and they shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament. So, the in other Bills also. Then, clause 20 accounts and the audit report are there says : already. Does the hon. Member want that the report which is submitted to •‘The Institute shall prepare for the Central Government, under clause every year a report of its activities during that year and submit the 20, should also be placed before both report to the Central Government Houses of Parliament ? in such form and on or before such Shri T. S. A. Chettiar: That is. date as may be prescribed by what I want. rules.” Rajkumari Anirit Kaur: We can Accounts by themselves do not easily put it in this form in clause 20 : mean much, unless they come to us along with the rejx)rt. But according to “The Institute shall prepare for the provisions or this Bill, only the evciy year a report of its activities accounts will be placed before us, and during that year and submit the not the report. In rep;ard to the Uni report to the Central Government versity Grants Commission Bill, where in such form and on or before such also we had the same provision—for date as may be prescribed by rules, after all the people who draft these Bills and the same shall also be laid are the same—we thought it wise in the before both Houses of Parliament." Select Committee to change it so that the report also will be made available Shri T. S. A. Chettiar: I will move to us. I have tried to amend the provi an amendment to that effect at the time sion in the following form, and I hope of the clause by clause discussion. the Minister will kindly agree to accept Rajkumari Amrit Kau/: I shall i t : accept that the same shall also be laid before both Houses of Parliament. “The annual accounts of the Institute together with the audit Shri T. S. A. Chettiar: It is the same report thereon shall be forwarded thing. Let me not go over that point to the Central Government and that again. Government shall cause the same to be laid before both Houses of The next point relates to a very im Parliament, and shall also forward portant matter, as to how admissions a copy of the audit report to the to this Institute are going to be regu Institute for taking suitable action lated. You know we would like to regu on the matters arising out of the late admissions by merit; the best audit report.” young men and women throughout the country should apply and be admitted. This provision is taken word for word At the same time, I as a Minister of from the University Grants Commis Education in a big State, have found sion Bill which we had passed some this difficulty. In engineering colleges, time ago, and which will become an Act people from certain areas which are in quite a few days. What is good for forward get admissions according to the University Grants Commission is merit, but from the Ceded Districts, good also for this institute, and for a which required a large number of engi good reason at that Parliament should neers, none of them got admitted, with be aware not only of the accounts but the result that many of the engineers also of the report of the working of the did not belong to those Districts and institute. We are virtually creating a we were having trouble in gettinc engi new university, a Central university for neers to work in those areas, lo my medical sciences. And we should cer mind, in regard to the development tainly know what is the work that is of the regions of this country, while being done in the institute. weight should be given to merit, we Under these circumstances, I hope should also see that a certain propor the Minister will accept the amendment tion should be given according to regi that 1 have suggested, as it has already onal basis so that every region may been accepted in another Bill. have the benefit of the post-graduate Rajkomiirl Amrit Kaur: May I ask course. In the Finance Commission, for clarification ? In clause 19 (4), it is you know how the money is divided. provided that the accounts of the insti- The money is not given only according tiite together with the audit report to the source or revenue; it is given on 271 All-india 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Institute ofMtdical Scunces Bill 272 two principles, the source of the revenue The establishment of this institution as well as the population basis. Even is long due and 1 take this opportunity here, while merit is certainly a predo to congratulate our Government on minant basis for selection of students, fulfilling this long felt need. As envis we should also see that all the various aged in our Second Five-Year Plan, we regions should get a certain amount of are going to establish many health representation, may be on the basis of centres in the country. For this, we re 30 or 40 or 50 per cent. So that we quire efficient staff. We have the saying, will have a combination of both merit “Health is wealth”. Unless we have got as well satisfaction of regional needs. proper schemes for health services, it This is not a matter which the Minister IS difficult to get people for taking up can decide immediately. It requires a such big schemes as we are going to very great deal of thought. I would implement in our Second Five-Year request her to consider this matter so Plan. A healthy mind is possible only that later on this matter may be settled when there is a healthy bod^. So I as satisfactorily as possible. That point would give first priority to looking after has not been raised in this Bill, cannot the he^th of the people in our coun be raised and should not be raised. It try. is a matter of detail of the working of the institution. But I would like her to consider the suggestion that has been made. For supply of efficient personnel, it is necessary to have institutions for post graduate and also under-graduate studies. I am glad, that this will be ful Then the hon. Minister said that as filled by the establishment of this institu the students study, they will have prac tion. But as some Members have sug tice also. That applies to all technical gested, I would also request the Minis institutions, and that is something which ter to recognise other institutions we have been working for. It should also which are trying to fulfil the want not be merely theoretical training; that is felt in our country with regard there should be practical training in to nursing and other professions. We hospitals, and there should also be are all aware that at present for 43,000 rural and urban setting provided for people, there is only one nurse provided health engineering. But I am unable to here while in U.K. for every 300 of the understand how within the campus of population, there is one nurse. So there the college, this can be done. This can IS a great demand for nursing staff, and be done only when people are deputed I am glad that this institution is going to those areas where that experience is to have a nursing collegc. But I would available. 1 do not know whether it is also request the Minister to sec that necessary to have a provision in the this institution gives recognition to Bill or it can be done by the rules, other nursing colleges established in the saying that wherever practical training country. I would mention one such col is necessary, people can be deputed to lege which we have in Bombay for such places as may be necessary. I sup giving nursing degree, started by the pose that is the intention of the framers Shrimati Narsibai Damodar Thackersy of this Bill. University. It is also trying to give nurs ing education to girls. I have nothing more to say except that this is one of the long cherished desires we have and we look to the I am glad that this institution is going time when we will not only not be to serve the rural population also by sending our peopde for higher grade providing rural health organisations training to foreign countries, but other which will form centres for field train countries will be coming to us for this ing connected with rural medical and training. health services. I hope with the estab lishment of this institution, that need that is felt at present in villages will be Shrimati Jayashrl (Bombay-Subur fulfilled. We know that our medical ban) : I congratulate the Minister on students from urban areas are not ready bringing forward this Bill. Also on to go to rural areas to serve those areas behalf of Government, I thank the New but I hope that by this arrangement Zealand Government for the generous they will be made to work in rural grant that they have made to our coun areas, thereby fulfilling the long-felt try for establishing this institution. need for medical services 273 All In£a 18 FEBRUARY 1956 /nsUluie q fM e ^ a l Scienat BUI 274 [Shri Mohanlal Sakesna] WT ’R iftr 'ini^ *Tt^ ^ ^ I 5»T WT 1 again congratulate the Minister on fflrr ^ t . ^ ^ I ^ bringing forward this Bill and I hope HFTT % ?JT ^ t-TO # ftn?T Government will give sufficient grants Ij this institution. ^^Wt ^ *[Tr TT •ft ^ gFTTtff ^ f?TRff^ ^ ?T^, ?mr % ^ ^ f t t fipTT *nrr rft %tt ft !^7T?TT f ^ T^T t 5T|5T t ? rk A' «*isfdr ^ ft? ?nft ^ ^ iftSRT TT?T5# ?R f ^ ^ a p ^ I ^ ^rnm ^ fss 5flT ?PiTT % fTR# Ttf *TPft ^(Tf^ «ft I ^?iT t ^ #WT % P m W % g ffq ? ^ ifhRT ^r>ft fllft ttlH'l ?TTf f I ITO «ft »<>m:w T«i ^ ^ "finT ^ t ^ ^ 5?ff t I Pf ’Til^r'^iNM ff*ft^«^ ^ f^qr |?TT t I wf^T TftJ 5ftr Tc ?nft 59T^ M itr # T # t ^ % P m W ^ «rt Qo (inTo f^fvA : ?rnT s n r ir«nT ’TT^ ^ ^n»FTT ^r TO ^ TfCT rft 1 ^ «PTT 3TT t , ^ M wm ^ ^ I # PTT % ift «i>nnim ?m : % TO % ^'TT Til'll t^n^irrft ^srrTftr^ ^ ^ P m W ^ 3TT TfT t TO % HI'h IP i s i m '*ft »T^ f ftr ^ WHI IT^flR 5ft 3Rt 3RTf iTtir^ ^ =^7^ % WTT ^ fw ^nt^TT, «ft fip Jm W ^ #F«TT ^ W WT j|T rfr ^r ^ ^ fiiT ^ ^ ft^rr, ^ ^ SFT ^ ^ fiPTTfTC # ^ ^ sfft ^ ^ ^ imwFigT «pnT ^5TRiT 3TT ?j%»rr I *TTr W!!pTr ir^ t ’Ti»fr, TO ^ q f t TT ?r»rf^ t I ^ P f ^ ^r ^ ^ PT*rf«T ^ % ^3T|5JT fsTcT^ vrs^ ^ ^cTJft n f 71^ % HPT 3TT TfT TO % 3ft ^ H^FT vTpTH TO ^ ifl^PTT 'TT f< T ^ ^ ^ t • ^ % 3i^t TO S|ft pJlH-ird ^ «nnr f*Tf^: JT^wa ^ jftw qr fV ?Tf«rr tft ift^RT ?iTf ^r f^n^TT Pfit ^ ^ ^ * #JTR ^ % fTR# JJT TO^ % tffT f«n^ ^ f% ??r w ?*T TT ifHr i ^ n^mr ff Mr. Chairman: Then why should he ^ 4 3Tf ^iIT W raise it now 7 ?fpqrr ^ ^ x r s ^ I *ffr ^ t ftr w #fft^ ^ »prTW «ft «?T?nTiinf ? m ; ^ ?rrf fif t ^r^r ?rfV^ ?T ftiT n ^ fr ^ ?rc? t , ??r q r ^rr^rr i % qr q ^ si^ ?rMr # f^p^p: apT Mr. Chairman! The whole House ^ ^Tf^ WlifF TIT«T ^ ^ 3W including the hon. Member himself ac cepted this allotment. ' ? m 5nn^ fft 5 t ^ ^ frt f^iT ^ frf ?ff'Tr ^ ^rr t ^ ^ The Minister of Parliamentary Affair* (Shri Satya Narayan Sinha): The height ^ % ?TP*r ?TP*r ism r ?rrerf of wisdom of the House is represented on the Business Advisory Committee. 3 ^ ^ 3rr ^ I ^ % y •-«*••>? W 5 ft 5 ^ ^ ^ •Ti|<*l| «ft vtHKWHi t , # ^m rrar % VaRiT ^ ^ % rs^ 5TT5 ?T f f^ ?PTT ^ qr pi ?Tftrv fw r ^ fcrr ^5rrfTT =^rf^ «tt i »fNTT ftrim 5ft itrsgjr ^ I t '^crrrsr ?ft Sd'fl 5lc5?Tjft ^ ^ 9 ^ k TT *Tif)f i^rrrrr, iTf JT^c^^ul ftw 5 r<^*5i(+ T5 I ?PTT t «T»TT qr ^ fv< id i a t iT f jp^raV # sm rr 5ft ^ q r?* t * r s ^ «T I t u ? nr ftr ^TPTT % 3ft ^ 3|T T f t ^ ^ P in ^ 'il O ^ ^ ?ftr % fw I 5^ ^ The hon. Minister says that she has #WT ^ 3ft Pt*% ^5TTT?r t ^ been to other countries, U.S.A., U.K. m and U.S.S.R., and has been impressed ■^nr ^ jj^«T ^T«ff # 3n^ sft ^ by the standard of education, and there fore, she is going to start this Institute, ^R«rr ^ 5TTOT *M t ?R? % ?»nfq?r the first of its kind in Asia. I congra T T ?f\T % 5lf^ 3ft n^<4^(;i O tulate her for her inspiration, but I would like her to tell us how long she ^ ¥t ^t 3TT I ^ ^ ?Rf ^ will take to brinj the results of these researches withm the reach of our f ’ TTT I ordinary people. Will it be 2, 3, or 10 years? Will it be possible for her to ^ ^ a f t ^ ?f?T ^ W ^ give a period? If she can bring the results within the reach of Common ^>T5JT j I people in that period, I will congratu late her. What did Gandhiji say regard Shri Mohanlal Saksena (Lucknow ing this question ? If the results of the Distt. cum Bara Banki Distt.) : At the research cannot be made available with outset I should say frankly that I can in two years to the ordinary poor people, 279 All India 18 FEBRUARY 1956 InsiituU of Mtdical Sdtm> Bill 280 4uch a research is merely a waste— pi esc system of medicine.” In the matter of are the words of Mahatma Gandhi. diagnosis, so many things are involved. Not only the reaction of the medicine Not only that. Again this is going to but also the reaction of the crucible be an Institute of Medical Sciences, but should be taken into account. If you ^•Medical Sciences” will not include put sulphur and sodium chloride, for Ayurveda, they will not include homeo instance, in a copper vessel, there will pathy and other indigenous systems of be some reaction; it will be different if medicine. But they include only what they are put in a silver vessel; it will has been dubbed and designated as be again quite different in a China ves modern systems of medicine—allopathy. sel. The doctor told him at the end that I know that those who man the Health to prescribe certain medicines for each Ministries in the Centre and the States and everybody, without any considera are allopaths and do not know much tion of climate and without knowing about Ayurveda etc. but they feel what will be the reaction on their system themselves coir^tent to declare that it is not scientific. is not a scientific system. It is a matter of pity and shame for us not to recog When the hon. Minister returned nise Ayurveda as a scientific system of from her trip to China, she talked of medicine, particularly at a time when killing flies there and all that, and she opinion in other countries are beginning said that she was impressed by that. I to turn towards that system. thought that she might introduce that system here as well. But she had noth I know of one incident. One of our ing to say as to what have they done «j:-Ministers who had been to U.S.A. about indigenous systems of medicine told me that one of the medical gradu in China ? Is it not a fact that there is ates of the Bombay University had perfect collaboration between indigen gone to the*U.S.A. and joined a certain ous systems and the allopathic system institution for further studies. When he there 7 In every progress report they met an eminent medical authority in mention the number of indigenous insti the city, he was put the question, “Have tutions they have started and the cases you finished your studies in the Indian that are dealt with by them. system of medicine?”. He said ‘Yes’. Then the doctor had a book in his hand When there was this recent epidemic and asked the student “Will you be able of jaundice in this very city due to help me to understand this book ?” to the negligence—culpable neg —it was a book by Shushrut. He said ligence, criminal negligence—of the “I have never seen the book”. The authorities themselves, the Health eminent doctor thereupon told him, Authorities and other statutory “How can you say that you have finish authorities, thousands of people ed your study of the Indian system of were seized by this malady. Who came medicine 7” to the rescue ? Was it this modern sys tem of medicine ? One of the specialists Mr. Chainnan : M ay I know w hat is declared that there was no remedy for the conclusion of the hon. Member? it in that system—allopathic system. I Does he mean to suggest that the Medi know from my personal experience that cal Sciences do not include Homeopathy thousands were treated undier Ayurveda or Ayurveda or Unani? and Homeopathic system and got cured. Shri Mohanlal Siiksena: They do not include Ayurveda etc. If in this very Institute of Medical Sciences Ayurveda and other indigen Mr. Chairman : Will the hon. Minis ous systems will have no place, how ter kindly state what is the correct posi can you expect them to be recognised tion ? abroad 7 Rajkumari Amrit Kaur: This is an 1 have another objection that I have Institute for ,the modern system of got. Why do you have all these things medicine and it cannot include any set up in Delhi? After all, the hon. other system. Minister has been saying all the time and crying from housetops that Delhi Mr. Chairman: Even Homeopathy is is too much overcrowded, but now she not a modem medical system I is herself setting up an Institute here. Shri Mohanlal Saksena: To continue She could have taken it to some out 1^ story, the doctor told the student, standing place in the rural areas like “Then you do not know your own Gurgaon or Faridabad or such other 261 A l l M i a 16 FEBRUARY 1956 InstUutt of M tdieal Stiences B ill 262 [Shri Mohanlal Saksena] was a non-controversial bill because it had been brought on along with other p laces. Why should averything be locat non-controversial Bills relating to Red ed in E>elhi particularly at a time when Cross etc. If this is the view of one ot there is a demand that offices should the Members of the Business Advisory mvovc out from Delhi ? Actually nobody Committee, how can we expect other moves out notwithstanding the decisions Members here, who never thought that published in the papers. We are still the Bill would come before us today, having new institutions created and we to know more about it ? , shall have to make provision for hous ing and accommodation for them even when we .are not able to make pro There arc many things to which 1 vision for those who are already in should take objection. Personally I will Delhi. oppose the Bill so long as these medical sciences do not include Ayurveda, There is another objection that I have Homeopathy and other indigenous sys got. The hon. Minister has given a pic tems of medicine. Then there is another ture in which it is not possible to say thing. In their First Five-Year Plan, the what will be the financial commitments Planning Commission have recommend involved unless these institutions get ed that the possibility of including the started. We have got a provision here physical system of treatment in the that the Government of India shall make medical sciences should be examined all payments by grants. But we do not and facilities should be provided for know how much will be needed. These giving training and education in that iue the days of planning, planned eco system. What has been done ? May 1 nomy, planning for everything and so know from the hon. Minister ? It was 0.1 ; vve want even private individuals a very important recommendation of to economise and save for the Plan. the Planning Commission. How much money is going to be spent on buildings ? Are not buildings avail Mr. Chatnnan : Order, order. May 1 able elsewhere—in Simla, Mussoorie or just bring to the notice of the hon. other hill stations ? We need not build Member that only one hour was allotted so many buildings and spend money on today and we have to finish at 5. I them here for this purpose. But I find would request him to close his speech. we are having so many buildings erect ed. In the financial memorandum Shri Mohanlal Saksena: I would appended to the Bill, it is said that in close the speech but 1 would like to the year 1955-.‘56 provision has been record my protest against the manner made for about Rs. 70,00,000, out of in which this is being hustled through. which Rs. 27,00,000 is obviously for construction of buildings. How much Shri U. M. Trivedi: The time may money will be needed in all, we are not be extended. told. I had some private talks and 1 understood that a sum of Rs. 3 crores Mr. Chairman: We have already will be required in all, and after that, a taken more than fifty minutes and recurring grant to the tune of about several speakers have spoken. The Lok Rs. .^8,00,000 will be required. 1 would Sabha had accepted that one hour like the hon. Minister to deny that so should be allotted. much money will not be required. Shri Mohanlal Saksena: I move that Anyway, this House has been used this Bill may be given extra time. So to the tradition that whenever a pro many speakers are there. posal or a scheme involving much ex penditure came before the House, it Dr. Suresh Chandra: Time must went through the Finance Committee or be given. some other Committee of this House. Even if the Finance Committee was not M r. ChairmaD :. W hat is the use of there, she should have herself come the Lok Sabha accepting the recom forvard with a proposal and refer to a mendations of the Business Advisory Select Committee. Why should she rush Committee if on every occasion there through the.se things in this w ay? I is a demand that the time may be ex know that the time allotted for this Bill tended ? is very short. I can say that one of the Members of the Business Advisory Shri Ramachandra Reddi (Nellore); Committee • himself did not know wlwt This Lok Sabha has got every right to the Bill was about. He thought that it revise its opinion. 283 AU-Iadia 18 FEBRUARY 1956 Inslitutt of Medical Scitnca Bill 284 M r. Chaimun t Should it revise it so Mr. Chairman : Then I am not bound many times 7 I would jost like to know by the views of the Business Advisory tow many hon. Members wish to spe^ Conunittee the House has not yet adopt o a this Bill. ed it in a formal manner. I was under thie impression that it was agreed to by Shrl Mohaolal Sakmn: I have not the Lok Sabha. Then I would only finished yet. request the hon. Minister to find time on the 20th. If he cannot, it shall have Mr. Chaimun: I find that there are to be adjourned to some other day. eight Members more who want to speak. I imderstand that there was a proposal to prolong the sitting of the Lok &bha Shfl Satya Nanyan Sinha : You are till 5-30 P.M. yourself aware of the fact that if Some iion. MemliefB: ^o. this Bill is not put through today it will be held up till May. There is no Mr. Chairman : Was it not put before time. the Lok Sabha? I am aslung the Minister of Parliamentary Affairs. Rajknmari Amiit K a n r: May I sug Shfl Satya Nanyan Sinha : My diffi gest that we sit till half past five? culty is this. I want quorum. Most of the Members have moved out and I Mr. Chairman : If the Lok Sabha is could not stop them physically. willing to sit, I have no objection. Is it the desire of the Lok Sabha to sit Mr. Chairman: So far as quorum is longer ? concerned, I find that in the Lok Sabha at the present moment, there are more Several hon. Members : No, Sir. Members than are usually to be found. If he saw the attendance for the last Mr. Chalhnan : It docs not wish to two hours or so, there was practically sit longer ; at the same time it wishes no quorum in the House. But at the that the discussion should be continued. same time, at this moment, there are I am asking the hon. Minister of Parlia more Members in Lok Sabha than they mentary Affairs if he is willing to give were at any time today. The desire of one hour on the 20th. the Lok Sabha has to be met so far as the discussion is concerned. I do not Shfl Satya Narayan Shiha: We are want to postpone this till May. In that hardpressed for time. You know we connection. I was asking the Minister have already allotted the time. of Parliamentary Affairs to let me know if it would be possible to allot one hour Mr. Chairman : But you are seeing on the 20th. the temper of the Lok Sabha. This wiU Shri Satya Nrrayan Sinha: I do not have to stand over. know. If the Lok Sabha is prepared to sit half an hour more on that day, I Shri B. D. Pande (Almora Distt. — have no objection. We are sitting till North East): It is dictatorship on the 5.30 on Monday. If it is the desire to part of the Government. sit from 5.30 to 6.30, I have no objec tion to prolong the discussion on the Mr. Chairman ; I find that the con bill. There will be further discussion sensus of opinion is that the discussion and the Bill will also be passed during should be prolonged. I also find that that period. they are not willing to sit longer today. Mr. Chairman : As it is agreed to, May I know if the Report of the Busi I postpone the discussion of the Bill to ness Advisory Committee has been the 20th February from 5.30 to 6.30. " id before the Lok Sabha and has The Lok Sabha stands adjourned till C accepted by it ? Has it been put II A .M . on Monday. before the Lok Sabha and accepted by 4-59 P.M. it? The Lok Sabha then adjourned till Shrl U . M. Trivedi: It was not put Eleven of the Clock on Monday the so far. 20tk February, 1956. 4-5 Lok Sabha DAILY DIGEST 28S 286 [Sttttaday, iQth F tbnay, 1956] COLUlfMS , CoLUMia REPORT OF BUSINESS AD AMENDMENTS MADE BY VISORY COMMITTEE RAJYA SABHA AGREED PRESENTED . . 155 T O 242-47 Thirty-first Report was pres Two amendments made by ented Rajya Sabha in the Uni versity Grants Commission BILLS PASSED . 155-242 Bill, as passed by Lok Sa 247-60 bha, were taken into consi (1) Representation of the deration and agreed to People (Amendment) Bill, CONSIDERATION OF BILL as reported by Selcct Com 260-84 m ittee All-India Institute of Medi (2) Bar Councils (Validation cal Sciences Bill was consi of State Laws, Bill, as pas dered. Discussion on motion sed by Rajya Sabha to consider was not conclu (3) Voluntary Surrender of ded Salaries (Exemption from Taxation) Amendment AGENDA FOR MONDAY, Bill 20TH FEBRUARY, 1956 Motion on Address by the (4) Indian Red Cross Society President and consideration (Amendment) Bill of the All India Institute (5) St. Jbhn Ambulance Asso of Mediciil Sciences Bill ciation (India) Transfer o f Fluids Bill G IFN —S L in c -^ Lok S»bh»—4-10.56—840