Six Powerful Voices D EEP in SIDE I SRAEL’S S HIN B E T
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Six Powerful Voices D EEP IN SIDE I SRAEL’S S HIN B E T BY MARK DANNER about this organization? MOREH: What you see here in Israel two-state solution, he’s building settle- DROR MOREH: Shin Bet is the intel- are politicians who manipulate every- ments all the time and enlarging the set- 7KHÀUVWGXW\RI6KLQ%HW,VUDHO·VIHDUHG ligence organization that has dealt with the thing for their own survival in the po- tlements in Judah and Samaria. … Rabin internal intelligence service, is to be Palestinians from day one. Their opera- litical arena. They are shortsighted. They was the light at the end of the tunnel for invisible. Its very motto, “Magen VeLo tives are on the ground. They are always don’t care about the future or are too stu- some kind of reconciliation with the Pal- Yera’e,” brands this shadowy organiza- there. They specialize in understanding pid to look forward. Our main criticism estinians. Today, there is a dark hole. tion as the “Defender that shall not be Palestinian society. If I want to hear about LQWKHÀOPLVWKDWZH,VUDHOLVFRXOGKDYH seen.” So it is more than a bit startling WKH,VUDHO3DOHVWLQLDQFRQÁLFWIURPDSUR- done better. The biggest blame for that DANNER: Getting an extended interview WRÀQGDGRFXPHQWDU\ÀOPEXLOWDURXQG fessional’s point of view, I want to hear lies with the politicians. with any single former director of the Shin interviews with Shin Bet’s surviving di- about it from them. Bet is an achievement, and very unusual. rectors—not one but all six: Ami Ayalon, DANNER: One of the most moving pas- Gathering all six of them together—par- Avi Dichter, Yuval Diskin, Carmi Gil- DANNER: They have absolute cred- sages is the death of Yitzhak Rabin, who ticularly a feared legend like Shalom—is a lon, Yaakov Peri and Avraham Shalom. ibility. had signed the Oslo peace agreement and tour de force. How did you do it? Persuading these feared professional MOREH: Absolute! These are (the then was assassinated by a rightwing reli- MOREH: Let me compliment you! You spooks to sit for on-camera interviews people) no one can argue with. You can- gious Israeli. Carmi Gillon, then head of understand Israeli history. Avraham Sha- was unprecedented; extracting the de- not dispense with their words. If there is Shin Bet, says, “Not only did the assassi- ORP LV D OHJHQGDU\ ÀJXUH LQ ,VUDHO DQG tails they tell, not only about their shad- anyone who is expert on the Israeli-Pal- nation succeed, it succeeded big-time and never ever gave an interview. ow war with Palestinian terrorists but estinian situation, it is them. No one can succeeded until the present day.” What I adore The Fog of War by Errol Mor- WKHLU ELWWHU FRQÁLFWV ZLWK ,VUDHOL SROLWL- contradict them. And at the end—and this does he mean? ris. I think it’s one of the most important cians, was historic—and, as the story is the most important part—they told me, MOREH: He means Israel’s agenda is ÀOPVWKDWKDVHYHUEHHQGRQH,WVKRZHG unfolds, increasingly shocking. I sat “We have erred.” now subjected to the settlers. The ex- that men in power could speak about their down with Dror Moreh, director of The treme rightwing rabbis and settlers are WLPH LQ RIÀFH DQG RIIHU LQVLJKWV DERXW Gatekeepers, to ask him how he did it. DANNER: When it comes to Israeli controlling almost everything in Israel. what they did. politicians, the Shin Bet directors show an Settlements are growing each day. Even ,QWKHEHJLQQLQJ,WKRXJKWDERXWÀYH MARK DANNER: Why Shin Bet? increasingly critical, indeed almost embit- though the current prime minister [Ben- directors. I didn’t think Yuval Diskin, who :KDW ZDV LW WKDW GUHZ \RX WR GR D ÀOP tered attitude. jamin Netanyahu] says he believes in a ZDVVWLOOLQRIÀFHZRXOGWDNHSDUW,WULHGWR s &72012 s '5%34 $)2%#4/2 s 42)"54%3 s 2%6)6!,3 s .%7 &),-3 s 3#(%$5,% s "!#+,/4 s 30%#)!, s ). -%-/2)!- s understand who would be the best one to the Second World War erupted. When the politicians.” DANNER: <RXPDNHLWFOHDULQWKHÀOP approach them through. I chose Ami Aya- he says we Israelis treat Palestinians “Why do you think that?” that the Shin Bet directors spent their pro- lon. It took me quite some time to reach like the Germans treated the occupying “They gave me the permission” to kill fessional lives dealing in tactics and ex- him and when I did, I told him that I want- countries in Europe, people know he ex- the prisoners. pecting a strategy to come from the politi- ed to speak about the Palestinian-Israeli SHULHQFHGWKDWÀUVWKDQG “Avraham, it’s in the movie that they cians who were their bosses. And in their FRQÁLFWWKURXJKLQWHUYLHZV,DVNHGKLPWR gave you the permission.” view that strategy never came, which is please give me the phone numbers of the DANNER: That’s a particularly shock- “No, it’s not enough. People have to why Israel has reached the political dead heads of Shin Bet. He admired the idea and LQJPRPHQWLQWKHÀOP+HDOVRGHVFULEHV understand that they were the ones respon- HQGLWKDV<RXUÀOPKDVJLYHQDOORIWKHVH said, “If you can get them, that’s great.” the controversy of overusing violent sible.” men the chance to speak out and say this It took a long time—each one inter- shaking as a technique during interroga- I don’t think he’s right. He should’ve forthrightly, and to set out what they be- viewed me extensively. I went to each one tion of prisoners. Shalom’s answer: If implemented better judgment on the lieve that strategy should have been, and of them a few times, and they understood you stop using this technique, instead of ground. But the fact is that three prime should be. what I wanted to do. I told them that the stopping 90 percent of terrorist attacks, ministers—Shimon Peres, Yitzhak Rabin MOREH: Each time in our history that interviews would be extensive, at least ten we’d stop 70 percent. and Yitzhak Shamir—manipulated the ju- we managed to overcome the obstacles hours with each of them. MOREH: There were a lot of suicide dicial system in Israel in order to pardon of terror, we give the politicians “free bombers in Israel. The use of that “shak- him. … That draws a very clear notion that time” in which they can decide where DANNER: These guys are extremely ing” technique—what they call moderate they were involved, that they knew what they want to take the country. But the charismatic—not just well spoken, but ex- physical pressure—had to be discussed by was happening and they were afraid that if politicians didn’t manage to create a bet- traordinarily powerful on camera. Shalom the attorney general. He tells a true story (Shalom’s case) were to go is a wily, brilliant fellow, particularly when about a terrorist they couldn’t do that to do, to court, they would be he’s talking about the Bus 300 incident (in they couldn’t interrogate him in this tech- blamed as well. which he was accused of ordering the ex- nique. There was a suicide attack and the ecution of two captured Palestinian terror- bus was bombed, and people died. Only DANNER: If one were ists). You and Shalom have a kind of duel, then did they interrogate him with this tech- to describe The Gate- as you push him to give you a straight an- nique and they got the info they needed. keepers DVDÀOP´EDVHG swer—and he in turn dares you to challenge The main issue is that this organization on six interviews,” one his decision. It’s a remarkable moment. [Shin Bet] has so much power. Any orga- would think it was a MOREH: There were a lot of moments nization that has that much power needs “talking head” docu- like that. Believe me, Mark, the editing someone above it to limit this power. The mentary. But in fact it is process was painful. As you can imagine, limiting of power by the judicial system ÀOOHGZLWKYLYLGIRRWDJH there are amazing, amazing stories that or by the politicians is sometimes not MOREH: From the be- KDGWREHOHIWRXWRIWKHÀQDOFXWEHFDXVH enough. Shin Bet is an organization that ginning, I knew I would of time constraints. That debate with wants to achieve results and will do what- have stories without any Shalom was much more aggressive than ever is needed to reach those results. You shred of visuals, so I the shortened version you saw. I asked need to have very strong people who con- knew we would need to him about the concept of illegal order (a trol it, to see that everything is done ac- work very hard to visu- Director Dror Moreh legal obligation for Israeli soldiers to act cording to the law. alize the stories in a way morally), which is very, very strong in the that had never been done before. That’s ter reality. The only one that tried to do Israeli army. He basically said, I cannot DANNER: You make the point that poli- why the budget was so high. We needed so—Yitzhak Rabin—was assassinated. answer this type of question from you be- ticians want binary choices: either do it or to create a whole world that does not ex- Today, there is quiet in the West Bank. cause you are hindering the state of Israel don’t do it. Secondly, that sometimes it’s ist, but is based on real documents and real ,W·V ÁRXULVKLQJ 7KHUH DUH QR WHUURU DW- by asking these questions. much harder not to act than it is to act.