2578 Factories Bill [COUNCIL] Questions without Notice Minister for Education and Minister for QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOriCE Science so that the children now occupying the hall of the Methodist church can go DESALINIZATION back into the school in their own building The Ron. A. A. ALAM: I wish to ask as quickly as possible. I have made in­ the Minister for Decentralisation and De­ quiries of the Department of Public Works velopment a question without notice. Is it and I have been informed that the day true that the Government is considering labour staff is in a position to do this urgent the possibility that turning sea water into work. The plans have been drawn and fresh water will become a major new enter­ apparently only the recent decision of the prise for New South Wales industry? Is the Government to look at school requirements Minister aware that the State of New York generally is holding up the work. I appeal has engaged the American Machine and to the Minister to discuss it with his col­ Foundry Company Incorporated to build a league and ask him to give this work high desalting plant on Long Island, New Jersey, priority so that the children may be under to convert 1,000,000 gallons of salt water the supervision and control of the head­ daily ; also, that Los Angeles invited tenders master and teachers within the school from Westinghouse Company Incorporated, grounds. General Electric Company Incorporated Mr SPEAKER: Order! The debate having and Dow Chemical Company Incorporated proceeded for ten minutes, pursuant to the -and all three, if necessary-to produce, amended sessional order adopted this day by 1968, 150,000,000 gallons daily? Has the House now stands adjourned until to­ not England, which is presently leading the morrow at half-past two o'clock, p.m. world in desalting plants, erected in Kuwait a plant that has proved a great success? Is House adjourned at 11.7 p.m. the Minister aware that the American firms mentioned contend that by 1968 they will be able to desalt water at 2s. a thousand gallons? At this price, would the New 14tginlattut Qlnuutil. South Wales Government be interested in installing desalting plants along the coast Wednesday, 1 December, 1965 of this State and also for treatment of brackish water inland? Factories, Shops and Industries (Amendment) Bill (third reading)--Questions without Notice-Main The Ron. J. B. M. FULLER: The De­ Roads (Amendment) Bill (second reading)-Local Government and Hunter District Water, Sewerage partment of Decentralisation and Develop­ and Drainage (Amendment) Bill (second readin~) ment, in conjunction with the New York -Bush Fires and Fire Brigades (Amendment) Bill (second reading) -Gas and Electricity (Sydney office of the New South Wales Government, County Council) Amendment Bill (second read­ ing)-Coal and Oil Shale Mine Workers (Super­ has been examining the desalinization of annuation) Amendment Bill (second reading)­ Public Health (Amendment) Bill (first reading)­ water for some time. We have been taking Local Government (Amendment) Bill (first read­ a keen interest in the cost per gallon, and ing) -Superannuation (Amendment) Bill (first reading) - Factories, Shops and Industries I was pleased to hear from the federal (Amendment) Bill-Adjournment (Business of the Minister for National Development, the House). Ron. David Fairbairn, only a week or so ago, that the Commonwealth Government The PRESIDENT took the chair at 4.28 p.m. also is taking an active interest in this The Prayer was read. matter. As this is the driest continent in the world and water is probably the greatest FACTORIES, SHOPS AND INDUSTRIES brake to our development, I assure the (AMENDMENT) BILL honourable member that any work that is THIRD READING going on in any part of the world is of Bill read a third time, and returned to interest to my department, and we are the Legislative Assembly with an amend­ examining any possibility whatever for the ment, on motions by the Ron. A. D. introduction of plants of this sort on an Bridges. economic basis in New South Wales. Questions without Notice [1 DEC., 1965] Questions without Notice 2579

POLICE FORCE That objective still stands. Some of the The Hon. C. J. CAHILL: I wish to difficulties standing in the way of obtain­ direct a question to the leader of the Gov­ ing a sufficient number have been referred ernment in this House. Is it a fact that over to by the honourable member, namely, the several years, from police conferences and fact that doubtless there is an accrual of from parliamentary sources, statements leave which has not been taken because of have been made that there is no shortage the shortage of men in the force; the some­ of men within the police service? Is it a what arduous and at times dangerous duties fact that there is a very grave shortage, t~ be under~aken by the men; and the very which is causing unrest and uneasiness in high educatiOnal standards required of the the service, since many police officers have force, apart altogether from physical accumulated more than 100 hours in over­ ability. In addition, there is the competi­ time, but are unable to take them, because tion for labour in so many other fields of replacements are not available? Is it a fact industrial activity. The Government con­ that many suburban police stations with a scious of this and also of the need to' bring normal establishment of 90 to 100 men are down a superannuation scheme which will manned during night shifts by only three be more acceptable to the general service or four officers? Is it a fact that 80 than apparently the last scheme was is per cent of police vehicles are immobile at looking into this matter and I assure 'the night, due to the shortage of officers and Hon. C. J. Cahill that every effort will be that this situation is contributing to an in­ made to improve the situation. Doubtless crease in crime and vandalism? Is it a fact my coileague will confirm what I have in­ that there is grave concern and discontent timated, that the Government is indeed by many officers of the New South Wales anxious to preserve law and order and police at the general administration of the safety in this country by the provision of service? If these are facts, will the Minis­ an adequate police force. ter ask his counterpart in another place whether the new Government is able to ABORIGINES assure the police service that there will be The Hon. EVELYN BARRON: I ask the a thorough examination of the problems leader of the Government in this House which are causing uneasiness and discon­ whether it is a fact that a report was pub­ tent? lished recently in a Sydney newspaper to The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: Contrary the effect that the State Government had to what the honourable member says, it has decided to set up a select committee to in­ been common knowledge for years past that quire into the general conditions and needs there has been a grave shortage of men in of aborigines in this State. Does the Minis­ the police force. Prior to the last election ter know of any action that has been taken the Liberal Party and the Country Party along these lines? Is it a fact that the intimated that when returned to office they Aborigines Welfare Board, at the direction would take immediate action to recruit of the Government, has taken ail managers more men for the force. There is an in­ ?ff the aborigines: stations, without notify­ creasing difficulty in obtaining suitable offi­ mg anyone and Without giving any direction cers, but I am glad to say that those who to the aborigines? Are the managers to have recently been recruited are of a very visit the stations only once a month for in­ high standard and will undoubtedly be a spections? Has a protest been made by the credit to the force and the community. The Northern District Council for Aborigines Advancement on the matter? Government is conscious of the need to have an effective police force, suitably The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: I am not equipped, properly manned and capable of aware of ail the facts stated by the honour­ undertaking the immense work that is en­ able member but it is a fact that the Gov­ trusted to it. As the Government intimated ernment proposes to set up a select com­ at the last election, it was its desire to mittee to inquire into the welfare, living recruit an additional 1,000 men. conditions, education, accommodation and 2580 Questions without Notice [COUNCIL] Questions without Notice other factors relative to the aboriginal popu­ in this House whether he will indicate what lation. This is regarded as a matter of very action has been taken by the Government great importance and was also one of the to increase recruitment to the police force. matters referred to in the policy speech. I Further, will he intimate what measure of am not aware of the present conditions of increased recruitment has been effected? aborigines, of the attitude of the Aborigines Welfare Board or of any direction given The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES: I have to to the board by the Government in the say with pleasure that the police force has manner indicated by the honourable mem­ b~en increased in number. Authority was ber. I shall make inquiries into the matter given for the recruitment of an additional and I shall let her know the result as soon number of members of the force. I have as possible. already said that they are of high standard and are very satisfactory both to the Gov· MILK ernment and the commissioner. Additional funds have been made available for the The Hon. P. M. M. SHIPTON: I ask purpose of increasing the number of mem· the Minister for Decentralisation and De­ bers of the force and additional funds will velopment to inquire from his colleague in continue to be made available until the another place whether the free milk that Government's objective has been attained. tile far north coast farmers are giving away in Sydney complies with the standards of The Ron. F. H. COCKERILL:. In my hygiene set down by the Milk Board. Does question I asked the Minister to indicate the far north coast farmer realize that the increase in numbers of the police force. winter milk is hard to get, that cows have I meant the· increase above the average in· to be fed on concentrates and that dairy crease. buildings must conform witfl the Milk Board's specifications for hygiene? Does the The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: I shall be far north coast farmer know that the far happy to supply the honourable member south coast farmer also does not come with the information when I obtain it from within the milk zone? official sources.

The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: I can say BERANNE (SERVICES) PTY LID that I have read in the press that apparently milk is likely to be given away by dairy The Ron. C. J. CAHILL: I ask a further farmers from the far north coast. I know question of the leader of the Gov­ that in local governing areas outside the ernment in this House. Is it a fact operations of the Milk Board dairy hygiene that a company known as Beranne is the· responsibility of the health inspector (Services) Pty Ltd has recently com­ of the local governing authority concerned. menced operation.s in the office of The local authority operates under an Act Evergreen Memorial Park Ltd, The Arcade that authorizes it to ensure that the build­ Peel Street, Tamworth? Is it further a fact ings in which milk is stored and the condi­ that this company is collecting money on tions under which milk is produced are behalf of Evergreen Memorial Park Ltd comparable to those existing in the milk and is endeavouring to sell grave sites in zone area. At the moment an inquiry is the name of Evergreen Memorial Park Ltd? being conducted by the Milk Board into the If these are facts, will the Minister advise dairy industry in the milk zone area and the House of the association between these into the cost of milk. I expect that any two· companies and whether the funds evidence that anyone likes to give on the being collected by Beranne (Services) Pty subject would be readily admitted at the Ltd are being properly accounted for? inquiry being held by the board. The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES: As no doubt the honourable mem~er will appreciate, I POLICE FORCE have no knowledge either of the company The Hon. F. H. COCKERILL: Further referred to by him or of its operations. If to the question asked by the Ron. C. J. the company is acting in breach of the Cahill, I ask the leader of the Government Companies Act, doubtless information can Questions without Notice [1 DEC., 1965] Questions without Notice 2581 be ascertained from the Registrar of Com­ tains-woollen curtains-were also pro­ panies and any such breach will be the sub· duced in New South Wales. I have already ject of investigation. I question very much had discussions with my colleague the Min­ whether the inferences to be drawn from ister for Public Works about the furnish­ tb.e honourable member's question of some ing of the State offices. I know that he participation of mutual interest in funerals is in sympathy with the suggestions that or the provision ·of grave sites .or the like I have put forward. I might say that is in fact a breach of the regulations. I am people will be surprised at the New South not sure. I cannot speak from any know­ Wales content of the furnishings. led.ge of that, nor can I say that it would necessarily be possible to ascertain from the official records the association between HATS, CAPS AND HELMETS these two companies, unless in fact one of The Hon. W. C. PETERS: I ask the the companies was a shareholder in the Minister for Child Welfare, Minister for other company, in which event the informa· Social Welfare, Advisory Minister for tion is rea

Service Leave Act to provide, when an em­ particular reason for this. Honourable ployee is dismissed, for pro rata payment members will be aware that section 92 of after five years' service? the Commonwealth of Australia Constitu­ tion Act forbids the imposition of duties The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: It is not which may contravene free intercourse the Government which amends legislation ; between the States. Proclamation as a road it is Parliament. Any legislation brought implies a right of use by traffic thus attrac­ down to amend the current law will be a ting the Commonwealth of Australia Con­ matter for determination by this House and stitution Act and the right to freedom from another place. If any legislation of the toll. It is to counter this situation that nature referred to by the honourable mem­ the work should be proclaimed as a toll ber is introduced in due course it will work. An example of a toll work is the doubtless receive adequate consideration by work under construction from the Hawkes­ this House. Whatever is deemed to be bury River at Peat's Ferry Bridge northerly appropriate will be done. to Mount White which is being financed from repayable State loan funds. The bill includes provisions exempting MAIN ROADS (AMENDMENT) BILL those vehicles paying a toll from tax under SECOND READING the Road Maintenance (Contribution) Act for the length of the toll work. Clause 2 The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER (Minister (b) includes a toll work in the definitions for Decentralisation and Development) of maintenance and permanent improve­ [4.55]: I move: ment so that the powers of the Main Roads That this bill be now read a second time. Act in relation to those items will apply The objects of the bill are first to authorize to toll works. After proclamation by the the proclamation as toll works of certain Governor of a toll work pursuant to clause works and to provide for the imposition 2 (c) the Commissioner for Main Roads of tolls and toll works to enable the recovery is by that clause enabled to decide on works of construction and maintenance costs ; of maintenance and construction after con­ second, to delete from the Main Roads Act sidering representations, if any, by councils reference to the Commonwealth Aid Roads in whose areas the toll work will be or is Act, 1959, which expired on the 30th June, situated. 1964, and to substitute therefor reference Construction or maintenance costs of the to the Commonwealth Aid Roads Act, 1964. works will be met either from the County Third, it seeks to add to the various powers of Cumberland Main Roads Fund or the of the Commissioner the authority to carry Country Main Roads Fund, according to out, or agree to have carried out, or contri­ its situation as provided in the Main Roads bute to the carrying out of research con­ Act. The amount of the toll shall under nected with planning, design, construction clause 2 (c) be as prescribed by ordinances. or maintenance of roads or roadsides and This clause states also that tolls collected the use of roads. shall be applied first towards maintaining Concerning the proposal to proclaim toll the work and the collection of tolls and works, I should mention that the second, towards the cost of construction, Main Roads Act already provides for the land acquisition and repayment of the loan. levying of tolls, with the approval of the When the loan has been so repaid the toll Governor, upon bridges or ferries on a will be lifted whereupon the work may be metropolitan main road . or country State proclaimed a road of a classification covered highway. The present bill extends the by the Main Roads Act. existing power to toll works designed to The bill contains provision for the par­ facilitate the movement of motor traffic ticular exemption in favour of vehicles pay­ between Sydney and Newcastle. Proclama­ ing the toll from charges under the Road tion by the Governor will, it is proposed, Maintenance (Contribution) Act, 1958, in de.fine the work as a toll work and not respect of the length of the work. Clause as a road, bridge or ferry. There is a 2 (d) adds a toll work to existing provisions Main Roads (Amendment) Bill [1 DEc., 1965] Main Roads (Amendment) Bill2583 in the Main Roads Act requiring the Gov­ Country Main Roads Fund are credited ernor's approval to construction by the with receipts from State motor vehicle Commissioner for Main Roads and con­ taxation in the portions of 20 per cent and ferring council's powers on the Commis­ 80 per cent respectively. The three fifths of sioner. Clause 2 (h) is an addition to a the Commonwealth Aid Roads money re­ power already in the Main Roads Act to ceived by the Department of Main Roads make ordinances and will permit the appli­ for the main roads system is credited to cation to the toll work of appropriate provi­ those funds in the same proportions. sions in various statutes and regulations relating to roads as the Governor deems This bill in general substitutes the words desirable so that travellers on the toll work "Commonwealth Aid Roads Act, 1964" for are protected and have the same obliga­ the words "Commonwealth Aid Roads Act, tions as they would have on a public place. 1959" in sections 10, 12, 20, 21 and 29, which deal with receipts and expenditure Honourable members will remember that of funds in the County of Cumberland Main the Commonwealth Aid Roads Act of 1964 Roads Fund, Country Main Roads Fund provides for payment to the States for five and Developmental Roads Fund. I would years from the 1st July, 1964 of annual point out however that there has been added amounts for the construction and main­ to sections 12 and 21 the power to expend tenance of roads, for the purchase of road­ Commonwealth moneys on research directly making plant and for research directly con­ connected with the planning or design of nected with the planning or design of roads roads as provided for in the Commonwealth or with road construction. Two fifths of Aid Roads Act of 1964. The existing sec­ the money paid to the State must be ex­ tion of the Main Roads Act limits expendi­ pended on rural roads, including roads in ture on research to construction and main­ country municipalities and shires, develop­ tenance only. Clause 3 ( 1) (h) proposes mental roads, feeder roads, and roads a new section to cover the option to ex­ in sparsely populated areas and in pend an amount on works that are not soldier-settlement areas. The roads on roads, but are directly connected with trans­ which this two fifths of Commonwealth port by road or water. This was previously aid is expended must be other than covered by provisos to sections 12 and 21. State highways, trunk roads and ordin­ ary main roads. Three fifths of the Clause 4 adds to the various powers of total is allotted to the Department of Main the Commissioner for Main Roads the Roads for the credit of the County of Cum­ power to carry out or have carried out berland Main Roads Fund and the Country research connected with (i) planning or Main Roads Fund, for expenditure on pro­ design of roads ; ( ii) construction and main­ claimed State highways, trunk roads and tenance of roads; and (iii) roadsides and ordinary main roads. the use of roads. The Commonwealth Aid Roads Act pro­ The first work to be proclaimed as a toll vides also that a total of £1,000,000 each work will be from the Hawkesbury River at year in the whole of Australia may be ex­ Peat's Ferry Bridge northerly to Mount pended by the States on works that are not White, a distance of 5.79 miles. This work roads but are directly connected with trans­ is being constructed partly by contract with port by road or water. The New South the Department of Main Roads and partly Wales proportion of this £1,000,000 has to by the department's own forces ; it will be be met from the three fifths allotted to the available for traffic on 15th December, Department of Main Roads, and the two 1965. Construction by the department is fifths for rural roads is obligatory. The same also proceeding on a further length between formula as that on which the total Com­ Mount White and Calga, a distance of 3.4 monwealth Aid Roads money is divided be­ tween the States is used in determining miles. This will extend the length of toll what amount can be so used. The Main work to 9.1 miles from the Hawbesbury 'Roads Act provides that the County of River and is expected to be completed by Cumberland Main Roads Fund and the December, 1966. At Calga, the toll work 2584 Main Roads {Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL] Main Roads (Amendment) Bill will connect with a two-lane road to Ourim­ consideration to be given to the lifting of bah built by the department to near-express­ the toll in about fifteen years. Finally, way standard, .as well as to the Pacific High­ I point out that the existing Pacific High­ way leading to Gosf()rd. way, sections of which have been relocated The cost ()f the 5.79 miles currently and constructed to a good standard, will under construction is estimated at remain as a toll-free road for those not £3,750,000 ($7,500,000). This work wanting to use the toll work. These sections is being financed from repayable State will be maintained at least to their present loans. It is on account of this large stanrlar.ct until the reclassification of the toll outlay that tolls are to be charged. work in an estimated fifteen years' time. I The scale of charges proposed for travel commend the bill to the House. over this work is: The Hon. R. R. DOWNING [5.8]: I am s. grateful to the Minister for his full and (i) Motor cycles and motor scooters 1 lucid ·explanation of the provisions of the { iij Cars, utilities and station sedans 2 (iii) •cars with Ca!l'avans, cars with bill. This is the fust statutory provision for boat trailers, buses and light vans a toll road in New South Wales, although and other vehicles under two tons in the bill it is referred to as a toll work. tare weight ...... 4 The apparent object in referring to it as {iv) Vehicles with tare weights from two tons tQ four tons ...... 6 a toll work is, as the Minister explained, .(v) Vehicles with tare weights over to evade or to avoid the implications of four tons ...... 10 section 92 tOf the Commonwealth Constitu­ As an offset to the toll charges, vehicles tion and to prevent interstate travellers, in classes {iv) and (v) will be entitled whether in private ·cars or transport vehicles, to exemptions from the road-maintenance from av.oiding payment of the toll. I have charge .of approximately ls. 3d. and 2s.. 6d. some doubts on whether this device will respectively. The moneys received in tolls succeed. will be used to meet the costs of collecting The small toll to be charged will not pro­ the tolls, the maintenance of the work, loan vide any incentive for a transport operator chacges .and sinking-fund payments. to ·challenge the validity of ·this declaration It has ibeen estimated that savings ·per of a to11 work. However, the Government vehicle trip to be gained by travelling on the is making provision for all offences under toll work, as .compared with travel on the the Motor Traffic Act, the Police Offences alternative free Pacific Highway route, will Act and other Acts covering public streets be, cars, ls. 3d.; medium trucks, 2s. 3d.; to apply on the toll work, which may pro­ and heavy trucks, 4s. This will be in addi­ vide an incentive, and a serious challenge tion to the gain of rebate in the road­ under section 92 of the Constitution has a maintenance contribution. These estimates likely chance of ·succeeding. I should hope cover normal running and time costs, but that such a challenge would not succeed. do not include intangible items such as de­ I .am in no way sympathetic to interstate lays due to traffic congestion on the ·existing carriers' avoiding the :toll charge. During highway, driving comfort, convenience and the time we were in government w.e experi­ greater safety. In the safety factor should enced a succession of challenges to any he included the absence of pedestrians, in­ change being made on these operators :to­ .tersections and "U" turns, the provision of wards the cost .of roads. separate carriageways for opposing traffic, The Minister 'has explained the three pro­ the oppor·tunity to overtake safely and the visions of the bill: the proclamation of toll absence of, or reduced dazzle from, the roads, consequential amendments following headlights of oncoming cars. the Commonwealth Aid Roads agreement of Based on the scale ()f toll charges .and 1964, which replaces the agreement of 1959, the volume of traffic expected to use the and the extension of the powers of the toll work-that is, about two thirds of the commissioner. The Minister said that it is present total traffic-it has been calculated expected that two thirds of the traffic be­ that the revenue from the toll will enable tween Sydney and Newcastle will we this The Hon. J. B. M. Fuller] Main Roads (Amendment) Bill [l DEc., 1965] Main Roads (Amendment) Bill 2585 highway. I hope that we do not have the values .of land. The proper way for same experience as in England when the this money to be raised is by a greater Ml highway was opened. That was such share coming to the States of the taxation a good highway that it encouraged high levied on petrol by the Commonwealth. speeds and there was an all·time record The Premier in his policy speech said that number of accidents. When the existing he would urge upon the Commonwealth section of the expressway to Newcastle was the return of all petrol taxation to the opened there was in the first week a number States. of accidents. If, as the Minister predicts, Since this Government has been elected there will be only one third of the present an additional 3d. a gallon has been levied on inter-city traffic using the existing highway, petrol by the Commonwealth. I have not probably many careful drivers will choose seen in the press any protests by the Premier to be among that third. against that additional charge not coming I am glad to see that this work is now to the States. A year or so ago the Premier completed. Honourable members will re­ of Victoria, the Ron. H. E. Bolte, suggested call that for some time prior to this work an increase of 3d. a gallon in the price of being commenced it was the subject of petrol :to be devoted solely to State roads. much public controversy. Members of the The amount estimated to be expended on present Government made stringent criti­ roads far exceeds the amount that the States cism of the Government of the time because can expect to receive. The figures were it did not agree to the construction of toll given in another p1ace and every honour· works as proposed by some private enter­ able member who has taken an interest in prises, running into many millions of this prob1em is aware that, according to the pounds, which the Government at the time most reliable estimates, in the next few considered to be not in the interests of ~he years the needs of the metropolitan area State. I have heard no reiteration of that alone .in regard to roads will not be met criticism and I assume that if such proposi­ to the extent of £400,000,000 or tions were put to the .Present Government £500,000,000. In view of that, .the Govern­ they would be rejected. I hope that when ment faces a serious problem in completing the Premier opens this toll work the week the Warringah .and Western Suburbs .and after next he will forget some of the criti­ other expressways planned by the Depart­ cisms that he made when we were debating ment of Main Roads. this method -of construction as opposed to Our party bas the highest regard for the that in which former Senator Tate was efficiency and -standards of work of the interested and another put forward by an Department of Main Roads. The achieve­ overseas company, both of the proposed ments of the professional and wages staffs alternatives invoiving greater charges on of the Department ·of M·ain Roads are a the motorist. success story in this State. The to11 work The Minister explained the allocation being discussed at the moment is a good of moneys received under the Common­ example of this standard. As honourable wealth Aid Roads grant-40 per cent to members know, certain sub-contractors and rural roads, 60 per cent to main roads­ contractors were in difficu1ties in carrying and I think 80 per cent of that to country out this work and their difficu1ties were main roads and 20 per cent to County solved with the assistance of the Depart­ of -cumberland .roads. In the County of ment of Main Roads. As stated by the Cumberland there will soon be more than Minister in another place, I hope that on 2,000,000 vehicles and we will need to the completion of the further extension of find some other way to finance expressways this expressway there will be no increase within the metropolitan area. At present in the rates charged. a considerable sum of money is raised mainly by taxation levied on coun­ The Hon. W. R. COULTER [5.19]: Dur­ cils within the County of Cumberland. ing my travels to and from Newcastle I I think at the moment the rate have had the opportunity of observing the is td. in the £ on unimproved capital progress of ·this work. I .have noticed the 2586 Main Roads (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL] Main Roads (Amendment) Bill wonderful machinery, efficient by world ments that are being introduced here as a standards, being used in the engineering of result of investigations by departmental offi­ the project. The Sydney-Newcastle express­ cers in America and Europe. way is by any standards a major piece of The National Association of Australian highway engineering. It is a tribute not State Road Authorities has made a survey only to the Minister for Highways of the of Australia's road needs and has estimated previous Government, but also to the pre­ that between 1964 and 1969 an amount sent Minister for Highways, who, I under­ approaching £1,500,000,000 must be spent stand, has undertaken that this great work on road building within the Commonwealth. will be carried forward to its total comple­ This association estimates, also, that in the tion as quickly as possible. We should be same period £475,000,000 will have to be failing in our duty as members of this House spent on road construction in New South if we did not recognize the work that has Wales. This is a colossal figure, and I hope been done by the Department of Main we will be able to meet it, because, apart Roads, whose officers, both administrative from our railways, road construction is the and technical, have been the guiding fac­ most beneficial provision that we can make tors in bringing this project to its present for interstate travel and commerce. state, along with the very able work that has been done by the contractors. We in I regard the toll proposal in the bill as this State can be particularly proud to have reasonable. However, I have always had an undertaking such as this administered some reservation about the charging of tolls by capable officers who had the important on roads and bridges, so I am pleased that task of preparing the plans and specifica­ the Minister has intimated that the toll tions for it. charges will be only 1s. 6d. for each car and that he hopes that after fifteen years People who travel to and from Newcastle the amount collected in tolls will be frequently are amazed at the magnitude of sufficient to pay off the debt and make it this work. We read in the press and hear a toll-free road. I hope, however, that long from friends who visit other countries about before then the Labor Party to which I the wonderful roads in America and belong will be returned to the Treasury Europe, which I understand are largely toll benches and will give serious considera­ roads. However, were I to venture an tion to removing all tolls on roads and opinion it would be that the New South bridges, including the Sydney Harbour Wales Department of Main Roads has Bridge. I pay tribute to the manner in demonstrated by its work on this road that which the Minister for Decentralisation and it will be equal to, if not better than, the Development presented the bill. All hon­ best of roads in the world. The reports of the Commissioner for Main Roads from ourable members must agree that bills of 1963 to 1965 give a wealth of information this type, which are good for the Com­ on this project. Among items that one monwealth, for the State, for interstate trade picks out at random when going through and for all the people of this country, the reports is that road bends will be con­ are worth while and deserve support. siderably reduced. Expressway speeds of .over 60 miles an hour will be considered The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER (Minister· safe on the new road, which will be opened for Decentralisation and Development) by the Premier on the 15th of this month. [5.28], in reply: The Hon. R. R. Downing Many curves and bends have been elimi­ raised a doubt as to whether the designa­ nated. Grades of 1 in 17 have been built, tion "toll work" would get round the prob­ and two 12-foot lanes are provided for each lems of section 92 of the Commonwealth direction of travel, with shoulders 10 feet Constitution. I do not know whether it wide to assist people whose vehicles break will, but there is nothing like trying. I down on the expressway. These and other think he will agree that, with an alterna­ matters mentioned in detail in the reports tive route still in existence close to the :show that we are benefiting from develop- toll work, there is a greater chance than The Hon. W. R. Coulter] Main Roads (Amendment) Bill [1 DEc., 1965] Main Roads (Amendment) Bill2587 there would be if this was the only traffic­ The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: No. I agree able route in the vicinity for transport to with the present allocation. We have al­ move interstate. ways agreed with the 40 per cent. As to the doubt expressed by the Hon. R. R. Downing that the traffic on the toll The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: I have one work will be roughly two thirds of the solution to the problem and that is to spread present traffic, I can only say that if it is the population a little and then it will not less the toll will remain a little longer. The be necessary to spend a large amount of money in the County of Cumberland on the honourable member was concerned about building of additional roads. Not taking it the danger of traffic and mentioned as an too lightly, a movement in this field can example expressway Ml in the United mean, in the not too distant future, that less Kingdom. The police patrols on this new money will need to be spent on roads in the work will have to be fairly extensive, at County of Cumberland than would have to least in the first few weeks when traffic be spent otherwise. Somehow additional is using the expressway. I can understand money must be raised to solve the problem the honourable member's concern at the of traffic congestion in the metropolitan excessive speeds that could be encountered. area. Most people look towards the federal Government now, and more money is re­ The Hon. R. R. DowNING: We are not quired ; probably the Commonwealth will used to that sort of road. have to supply the ultimate solution. I do The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: Especially not know whether the Hon. W. R. Coulter with heavy interstate transport vehicles. It had my charges right. The proposed will be essential for proper police patrols charges, which will be introduced by ordin­ to be on the job all the time. I was in­ ance, are: motor cycles and motor scooters, terested in the comments about the in­ ls. ; cars, utilities and station sedans, 2s. ; crease in the number of vehicles in the cars with caravans, and so on, and light County of Cumberland and the contention lorries, 4s. ; vehicles from 2 tons to 4 tons of the Hon. R. R. Downing that more tare weight, 6s. ; and vehicles exceeding money will have to be made available to 4 tons tare weight, lOs. build necessary expressways and high­ The Hon. J. A. WEIR: When will the quality roads in the country. But I did toll start to operate? not appreCiate his thought that perhaps the present Commonwealth Aid Roads alloca­ The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: From the tion. should be re-assessed, to take some­ time the Premier opens the toll work on thing away from the present allocation to 15th December. I thank the House for its the country areas of this State. co-operation in the second reading of. this bill. The Hon. R. R. DowNING: No, I did not mean that. If I said that, I did not express Motion agreed to. myself properly. I meant that more should Bill read a second time. come from the Commonwealth. COMMITIEE AND ADOPTION OF REPORT The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: I took it Bill reported from Committee without that the honourable member was referring amendment, and report adopted, on motions to the amount going to the country. by the Hon. J. B. M. Fuller.

The Hon. R. R. DowNING: No. THIRD READING The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: I carne in With concurrence, bill read a third time, immediately, wishing no reduction in that and returned to the Legislative Assembly, sphere. on motions by the Hon. J. B. M. Fuller. 2588 Local Government and [COUNCIL] Hunter District Water Bill LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HUNTER The population that the board serves with DISTRICT WATER, SEWERAGE AND water now totals 317,000 and 213,000 per­ DRAINAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL sons are served by sewerage reticulation. SECOND READING Early in 1961, the board decided, with The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister for a view to avoiding the diversion of its Child Welfare, Minister for Social Welfare, funds from the provision of services to ai­ Advisory Minister for Transport and Vice­ veady built-up areas, that subdividers and President of the Executive Council) [5.35]: developers of land .seeking the .extension of I move: water or sewerage services ahead of the That this bill be now read a second time. board's normal construction programme should be required to meet the cost. It Honourable members will recall that late was decided also to treat on its merits any in 1963 the Metropolitan Water Sewerage cost involving amplification, carrier mains, and Drainage Board was empowered or treatment works and to make a determ­ under the provisions of the Local Govern­ ination on what proportion of the cost of ment and M·etropolitan Water, Sewerage, such works was also to be carried by the and Drainage (Amendment) Act to subdivider. exercise control over the subdivision or de­ velopment of land within its area. I am This policy is based on the established informed that the scheme based on this practice that the cost of providing water Act is operating satisfactorily and has re­ and sewerage services to new subdivisions is ceived general acceptance. It has now been a development cost and as such should be decided that it would be desirable for the met by the developer. It also conforms Hunter District Water Board to have simi­ with the general practice of local-govern­ lar powers in relation to the .subdivision ment authorities to require subdividers to or development of land in its area, and provide roads, kerbing, guttering, parks, this is the purpose of the bill before the gardens and recreation space as part of the House. cost of developing their land. The board's I might mention that the rapid rate of policy received the support of the planning industrial development and the increase in authorities who facilitated its implementa­ population which is taking place within the tion by withholding approval to the release board's area has generated a substantial or development of land unless satisfactory demand for housing and residential home arrangements had been made between the sites. Land development and the subdivi­ developer and the water supply and sewer­ sion of estates to supply these requirements age authority for the provision of ser­ have created heavy pressures on the board vices. to make available water and sewerage ser­ Experience has shown that prospective vices to these new areas from its limited home builders purchasing new lots prefer financial resources which, however, are al­ land with water and sewerage available and ready fully <:ommitted in providing services I understand that most subdividers have to the more highly developed areas. accepted the practice of being responsible The board's responsibilities extend over for financing the provision of these services. an area of 1,750 square miles and, for the The policy at present followed by the board past five years, capital expenditure by the works satisfactorily where only one or two board has averaged £2,900,000 per annum. subdividers are involved. However, prob­ In this period, 162 miles of new water lems have arisen in cases involving the de­ mains and 202 miles of new sewer mains velopment of large tracts of land, where a were laid. Other major amplification works number of subdividers are involved, or carried out by the board include pipelines, where the owners of adjoining parcels of reservoirs, tanks, pumping stations and land capable of being served by proposed sewage treatment works. The completion of Grahamstown water supply scheme at a mains are unwilling to participate in the cost of £11,500,000 was a further major cost. Under the existing arrangements .some achievement of the board in thi.s period. subdividers can wait for others to pay for Local Government and [1 DEC., 1965] Hunter District Water Bill 2589 mains from which their estates could also in question should not be subdivided unless be served without their having to meet any water or sewerage, or both, and any other contribution. related works are· available. This is of course The bill will give the Hunter District essentially a planning decision and will be Water Board the same powers and control the responsibility of the State Planning over the subdivision or development of land Authority. within its area of operations as the Metro­ Under the proposed new section, the politan Water, Sewerage and Drainage agreement between the board and a sub­ Board exercises under the provisions of the divider may provide for the contribution by Local Government and Metropolitan Water; the subdivider of the amount assessed by Sewerage and Drainage (Amendment) Act the board as a reasonable proportion of the of 1963. Jits provision will ensure that land cost of constructing mains and other works, within the area of the Hunter District having regard to the benefit to his land. Water Board is not subdivided unless satis­ It may also provide for the subdivider to factory arrangements have been made with make a further contribution by way of the board for the provision of water or advance to assist the board in financing the s·ewerage se11vices, or both, to the land. The balance of the cost in order that the works machinery arrangements to be followed will involved can proceed without delay. be similar to those which apply in the case of the metropolitan water board. Any amounts advanced in this way will The bill amends the existing provisions be repaid by the board, either from contri­ of the Local Government Act governing butions received from other subsequent sub­ subdivisions·, by inserting new provisions re­ dividers, or in due course from the board's lating particularly to the subdivision of land own resources. Where appropriate, the terms of repayment w~ll be specified in the within, or partiy within, the area of opera~ tions of the Hunter District Water Board. agreement. Provision has been made also Under the existing provisions of the Act, for the board to accept suitable security land may not be subdivided until the town for any payments due to it. This will or shire clerk has certified that the require­ enable the board to assist small subdividers ments of the Act have been satisfied. The who may not be able to pay the amounts effect of the proposed amendments will be due to the board until they dispose of all to prevent the subdivision of land situated or part mf their land, by accepting payment within the Hunter District Water Board's in instalments where this is considered area of operations unless the town or shire appropriate.. The provisions of the bill will clerk has also certified that the requirements apply only to new subdivisions and the of the board in relation to the subdivision owners. of single pa1:cels of land capable have been complied with. To assist him of being served by a main constructed under to satisfy himself on this score, the board an agreement will not be required to make will furnish the council with a copy of all capital contributions towards its cost unless certificates issued by it to subdividers. their parcel of land subsequently becomes the subject of an application to subdivide The bill provides for the insertion of new within a period of fifteen years from the sections 34A and 34B in the Hunter District date of the agreement to construct the Water, Sewerage and Drainage Act, 1938, main. The circumstances under which cer­ as amended. Under the new section. 34A tificates in relation to subdivisions shall be the board will be empowered to enter into issued are set out in the proposed new agreements with the owners of land, or per­ section 34B. sons authorized by them, for the financing of the construction of water or sewer mains, Owners of land within the board's area or both, and other works· to serve the land who wish to subdivide will submit their proposed to be subdivided, either alone or application to the city, municipal, or shire together with other land. The board will council in the ordinary way. When the be able to exercise this power only where council has approved, or approved subfect the State Planning Authority has first certi­ to conditions, of the subdivision, it will be fied, in writing, that, in its opinion, the land necessary for the subdivider to lodge a 2590 Local Government and [COUNCIL] Hunter District Water Bill copy of the plan with the water board, and with his plans for subdivision. To ensure apply for a certificate that its requirements that applications are dealt with expedi­ have been met. Where a main is already tiously, the board will be required to deal available, or will be available in a reason­ with each application within sixty days of able time to serve the land, the question its receipt. If at the end of that time, the of a capital contribution will not arise and board has not issued a certificate or served the board will issue its certificate. A certi­ a notice of its requirements, the applicant ficate will be issued also where, although a may request the board to issue the certi­ main is not available, it is not considered ficate that its requirements have been com­ reasonable either by the board or the State plied with. Planning Authority, to require the provision Where a very large subdivision is in· of water or sewerage services, as a condi­ volved, the board could, however, require a tion of approval to the subdivision. When, longer period to complete its investigations however, the State Planning Authority issues and the bill provides that an extension of a certificate that in its opinion, a new time may be approved by the Minister sub­ subdivision should not be developed with­ ject to notification to the subdivider of the out the provision of water or sewerage extension before the period of sixty days services, or both, the board will serve a has expired. The State Planning Authority, notice on the applicant requiring him to on the other hand, will be required to reach enter into a section 34A agreement to con· its decision on subdivision plans and pro­ tribute towards the cost of any additional posals referred to it by the water board mains or works necessary and will not issue within twenty days. As previously stated, its certificate until this . notice has been the object of this bill is to assist the Hunter complied with. District Water Board to overcome the When the land covered by a subdivi­ problems involved in providing services to sion application is capable of being serviced new subdivisions ahead of their normal by water or sewerage mains a•ready con­ priority by giving it similar powers to those structed, or to be constructed, under a conferred on the Metropolitan Water section 34A agreement, the board will not Sewerage and Drainage Board in relation issue a certificate unless and until the sub­ to subdivisions. The proposed legislation divider has paid to the board an amount should enable the board to press ahead with assessed as a reasonable proportion of the the extension and expansion of its services cost of constructing that main and other in an orderly fashion while ensuring that related works, having regard to the benefit the supply of properly serviced land for to his land. In such cases it may also be housing purposes keeps pace with the de­ necessary to require the subdivider to enter mand. For these reasons I commend the into an agreement with the board, providing bill to the House. for the construction of any additional mains or works required to serve the applicant's The Ron. R. R. DOWNING [5.50]: I land only, or other lands as well as his land. express my appreciation of the detailed ex­ planation given by the Minister. As he I have already mentioned that a pay­ said, the bill has been substantially modelled ment towards the cost of a main or mains on the legislation introduced by our gov­ constructed under an earlier section 34A ernment to give similar powers to the agreement will be required only when a subdivider who has not contributed applies Me~ropolitan Water Sewerage and Drain­ for a certificate within fifteen years from a.~e Board. Without the provisions con­ the date of that agreement. Once the fif· tained in this measure developers could teen years have elapsed, the board will not open up areas on which numbers of houses be able to require capi.tal contributions would be built. The resulting demand for towards the cost of the main. As soon as sewerage services would be detrimental to the subdivider has complied with the re­ quirements of any notice served on him by the older-settled residential areas and would the board, a certificate to this effect will be place an undue financial obligation upon issued to him, and he may then proceed local-government authorities. The Hon. A. D. Bridges] Local Government and [1 DEC., 1965] Hunter District Water Bill 2591

I understand that these provisions have for Public Works claimed that the people worked quite satisfactorily in the Metro­ who were buying land would be subjected politan Water Sewerage and Drainage to further speculation and increased costs ; Board area. Of course honourable mem­ he could see it as another way of piling bers wiiJ recall that our government was the costs on to land purchasers. criticized when it introduced the legisla­ To some degree, there is some substance tion to cover the Sydney metropolitan area. in this argument. If a person buys a block I remember that honourable members in of unsewered land, he does not pay for another place, especially present Ministers, the service and the block of land is cheaper. were critical of its provisions. In deference to On the other hand, if he purchases it with honourable members of this House, I shall those services, he must expect to pay for not refer to the debate on that measure them. When our legislation was being dealt in this Chamber. I believe the Minister with in another place the present Minister will agree that any fears he might have for Lands and Minister for Mines was had concerning that legislation have now strong in his opposition. Further, the hon­ been removed. Having regard to the rapid ourable member for The Hills, who led for development in the Newcastle area the Min­ the Opposition, strongly condemned the bill ister now says that it is essential that this and suggested some amendments that are scheme should be introduced to prevent not included in the measure with which we uncontrolled development, which would act are now dealing. Of course, the Labor to the detriment of the area. Subdividers Party must take it as a compliment that, will be required to carry their share of the after so much opposition in another place cost of providing these capital works. I am and to a lesser degree in this Chamber, the glad that the example provided by the legis­ bill is copied in this way. A recent article lation we introduced has been considered in the Newcastle Sun stated: workable and so satisfactory that the present Quietly, and so far without fuss, legislation Government feels disposed to copy it and is passing through State Parliament to extend to apply it to the problems arising in the provisions of the Local Government and Newcastle area. Metropolitan Water, Sewerage and Drainage Bill to the Hunter District. The Hon. F. H. COCKERILL [5.52]: The Metropolitan Bill was introduced by the Any measure that assists in the extension of former Labor Government in 1963, and en­ water and sewerage services has my sup­ acted without amendment . . . Despite vigorous efforts by the then Liberal­ port. Under this measure the Hunter Dis­ Country Party Opposition, to "emasculate" it trict Water Board is merely having ex­ (the term was used by Mr Max Ruddock, tended to it the advantages that existing who led the Opposition attack). legislation has conferred upon the metro­ I take it that means his intention was to politan board for the past three years. It emasculate the bill. At that time the Hunter is strange-and of course understandable­ District Water Board was not covered for that people have different views, depending it was satisfied to work under agreements it on whether they are looking at a matter was able to make with subdividers. Under from the outside or from the inside. Some this measure the procedure with subdividers of my colleagues who have come to work will be almost the same as under the exist­ with me in the trade-union movement have ing agreements, but I believe that these said, "I never appreciated the problems matters are better covered by law than by involved, and you certainly get a different agreement. view of these matters from the inside." It is remarkable how strongly members of The Minister has explained how exten­ the present Government, who were then in sions have been made in the board's area. opposition, opposed the Metropolitan Sewerage services in the Newcastle and Water, Sewerage and Drainage (Amend­ Lake Macquarie areas exceed by far, on a ment) Bill introduced by our government percentage basis, the extension of sewerage several years ago. In another Chamber services in the Sydney metropolitan area. some of their comments were absolutely I have said before that the area of un­ fantastic. Indeed, the present Minister sewered land within a reasonable distance 2592 Local Government and [COUNCIL] Hunter District Water Bill of the centre of our cities is a disgrace to by way of loan and would have reduced all of us. The time must come when, to the board's portion of the local-government solve this health problem, we provide the allocation for borrowings. maximum amount of sewerage, although it is hard to understand how this can be done When I mentioned the assessment of the under the present system. Much more charge to be made to developers, the Hon. money, by loans or other means, must be R. R. Downing said that there would be no provided for our water boards, to enable possibility of an agreement being entered them to extend sewerage services to their into unless there was an assessed determina­ absolute limit. tion of the cost of the work ; in other words, there would be no signing of an agreement A calculation of the losses inflicted on without knowledge of how much was in­ the population by the lack of sewerage volved. would show that if the whole of these areas were sewered there would be a favourable Following that I dealt with the definition return in hard cash. As stated by the Oppo­ of ancillary works and other extensions to sition in 1963, the construction of ancillary services provided by the board. The leader works should become the responsibility of of the Government at the time pointed out sewerage boards or other authorities. The that if there were dissatisfaction with the position can arise of mains being extended amount of the assessment, consequent upon in one area and requiring a boosting anciHary works being in excess of anticipa­ arrangement that could place other areas of land at a clear disadvantage when compared tions, the developer had every right not to with land in proximity to the mains. Hon­ proceed with any agreement. Then I stated ourable members on this side of the Cham­ that it would be wrong for an agreement ber approve the bill: we must approve it to be forced on a developer if, in fact, because we initiated it. This bill follows there was likely to be an early pro­ the pattern of the original measure and I gramming of the work to be undertaken, so support it. that entering into the agreement would im­ The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister for pose upon the developer a cost that would Child Welfare, Minister for Social Welfare, in the normal course of events have been Advisory Minister for Transport and Vice­ met by the board itself. Having been sa.tisfied President of the Executive Council) [6.2], on all matters about which I wanted infor­ in reply: I am glad the Hon. R. R. Down­ ing and the Hon. F. H. Cockerill referred mation, I became an enthusiastic supporter to the previous occasion when a bill of of the bill then before the House and, con­ this nature was introduced. If the trary to what was done in another place, tresearches of the honourable mem­ I did not move any amendment. bers had extended to the debates in this Chamber as well as those in Moreover, I am bound to say that I am another place, they would have ascertained enthusiastically behind this bill because I that I Jed for the members who did not believe it is going to provide for lands con­ support the Government of that time and trolled by the Hunter District Water Board I raised, not by way of criticism but in the same development as is at present pos­ search of information, a number of mat­ sible for lands controlled by the Metropoli­ ters that I considered to be relevant. The first was why developers should be re­ tan Water Sewerage and Drainage Board. quired to place funds in the hands of the This will mean inevitably for home-hungry board without receiving interest. The Hon. people the release of land with essential ser­ R. R. Downing explained then, and I now vices provided and without detriment to know this to be the position, that if interest services planned for completion in other had been paid the moneys so received by areas. For those reasons, while I appre­ the board would have been construed under ciate that normally it might be possible to the Financial Agreement as being received say, "I told you so," in this instance I do Bush Fires and Fire [1 DEC., 1965] Brigades (Amendment) Bill 2593 not think I am departing from any prin­ The committee believes that this improve­ ciples previously enunciated by me. On the ment is due substantially to (a) better contrary, I am supporting what I said pre­ training and organization ; (b) better equip­ viously. ment; (c) improved public co-operation; Motion agreed to. (d) the fire prevention schemes inaugurated after the extensive fires of 1957-58 to Bill read a second time. construct fire trails into inaccessible coun­ try in the coastal and tablelands regions COMMITTEE AND ADOPTION OF REPORT between the Victorian and Queensland Bill reported from Committee without borders. amendment, and report adopted, on motions by the Hon. A. D. Bridges. The committee has stressed however, that there are some areas in which the organ­ ization is capable of further improvement and a great deal has been learned from the BUSH FIRES AND FIRE BRIGADES past summer which will be useful in this (AMENDMENT) BILL regard. In particular the serious fires of SECOND READING March this year when several shire presi­ The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER (Minister dents found it necessary to exercise their for Decentralisation and Development) powers under section 17 of the Bush Fires [6.8]: I move: Act and appoint emergency fire controllers, That this bill be now read a second time. emphasized the need for provision to be made for these appointments to be made The responsibility for the control of bush earlier than the Act now permits. fires in New South Wales, other than in those areas which are serviced by the Board As originally enacted, section 17 pro­ of Fire Commissioners and the Forestry vided that the Minister, if he were of the Commission, is a decentralized function opinion that a state of emergency existed, carried out by local government. At the could in the interests of public safety present time there are approximately 2,500 authorize an officer of the police force, the volunteer bush-fire brigades operating in the Board of Fire Commissioners or the State, with a total membership of more than Forestry Commission or any other person 100,000. The brigades are formed by local to take charge of bush-fire fighting opera­ councils and the cost of supplying them tions in any area or locality. An appoint­ with fire-fighting equipment and appliances ment could be made only by the Minister. is met from the Eastern and Central Divis­ This system was found to be impracticable ions Bush Fire Fighting Fund established having regard to the procedures necessary under the Bush Fires Act in 1949. The to implement it, the main problem being fund is contributed to by insurance com­ to issue an authorization in sufficient time panies 50 per cent; councils 25 per to allow effective action to be taken. cent ; and the Government 25 per cent. With the object of enabling action to be It is administered by the Minister for Local set in motion at short notice the section Government. As at 30th June, 1965, a total was amended in 1963, on the recommenda­ amount of £2,793,629 had been allocated tion of the Bush Fire Committee, to trans­ to councils from the fund. Provision has fer the powers previously held by the Min­ been made for a record allocation of ister to mayors or presidents of areas £618,248 this financial year. outside the County of Cumberland. The It is encouraging to note that the New persons who may be appointed by the South Wales Bush Fire Committee in its mayors or presidents are named in a list report for the year ended 30th April, 1965, approved by the Minister and published has expressed the view that the experiences in the Government Gazette. If they con­ of 1964-65, the first major fire season since 1957-58, clearly demonstrated that the bush­ sider it necessary, mayors and presidents fire organization has not previously reached of adjoining councils may jointly appoint such a high peak of training and efficiency. a controller to take charge of fire-fighting 163 2594 Bush Fires and Fire [COUNCIL] Brigades (Amendment) Bill

operations when a fire spreads or is likely stands, this can be done only by resolution to spread over the areas of two or more at a council meeting. As honourable mem­ councils. bers are no doubt aware, many councils meet only once a month and special meet­ The Minister retained the power to make ings are expensive and difficult to arrange. appointments in the County of Cumber­ It is proposed, therefore, in response to re­ land and in those parts of the State which presentations from the Shires Association are not within the area of a council but and individual councils to make provision he was authorized to delegate this power. for councils to delegate to mayors and pre­ The Chief Secretary has in fact delegated sidents the power to vary the bush-fire this authority to the Chief Officer of Fire danger period in between normal council Brigades who, with the resources and com­ meetings. munications available to him, is in a special position to exercise this function quickly From time to time fire brigades from should the occasion arise. There is a weak­ this State are required to enter adjoining ness in the law as it now stands, in that States to engage in fire-fighting operations. an emergency fire controller may be Similarly, brigades from other States are appointed only when a bush fire has actually required to enter this State. The legality of assumed such proportions as to be in­ a brigade or a member of that brigade en­ capable of control or suppression by the gaging in fire-fighting operations in another fire-fighting authority or authorities in whose State must be judged according to the laws area or locality it is burning. of that other State. Likewise if such bri­ gade or member is, in respect of acts done It is proposed to rectify this deficiency in another State, properly to be regarded by further amending the section to per­ as having some special powers and immun­ mit an appointment to be made as soon ities, the source of such powers and im­ as it appears likely that a fire will pass munities must be legislation of the other beyond the control of the local fire-fighting State. authority. This will give the controller more In 1964 the Queensland Government time to plan, establish a control centre made provision in its legislation authorizing and make arrangements for the command members of New South Wales fire brigades and deployment of men, materials and to fight fires in Queensland and indemnify­ equipment. In the past the list from which ing them against actions arising from dam­ presidents and mayors may select con­ age to properties in fighting fires. This trollers consisted of mainly forestry officers, State has been asked to enact reciprocal members of the police force and officers of legislation. As fire-fighting problems similar the Board of Fire Commissioners. The list to those existing on the Queensland border has been expanded for the coming summer could also occur on the Victorian border by the inclusion of the names of persons and, to a lesser extent, the South Australian nominated by councils who, because of border, the Premiers of Victoria and South their special knowledge of local conditions, Australia were asked whether they desired fire occurrences and terrain would be that their States be covered by any amend­ specially fitted for this class of work. ments to this State's legislation. Both Section 7 of the Bush Fires Act provides Premiers agreed that it would be desirable for a fixed bush-fire danger period for the to have a reciprocal arrangement of the whole State from 1st October to 31st nature proposed by New South Wales. March. The section provides, however, The statutes of New South Wales relating that the council of any area may by resolu­ to fire fighting are the Fire Brigades Act, tion declare additional danger periods or 1909-1958, which applies in fire districts revoke the statutory danger period in re­ constituted under that Act, and the Bush spect of the whole or part of its area for Fires Act, 1949-1963, which makes provi­ such period as it determines. Due to rapidly sion for the fighting of fires outside such changing weather conditions, councils fre­ districts. Both Acts are to be amended to quently find it necessary to exercise their provide that in the absence of a New powers under this section but as the law South Wales fire brigade or official of such The Hon. J. B. M. Fuller] Bush Fires and Fire [1 DEC., 1965] Brigades (Amendment) Bill 2595 brigade, any person in charge of a fire its area or any part of its area shall not brigade in a neighbouring State may assume be issued to landholders, public authorities control of fire-fighting operations in this shall not light, maintain or use such fi.res State and that such officer in charge and during such period. Section 14 of the Bush the personnel under his control shall be Fires Act provides that where a council vested with the same powers and given the has served a notice in writing on an owner same protection from legal proceedings as or occupier of any land to establish a fire are enjoyed by New South Wales fire­ break or remove or destroy any inflammable fighters. The Board of Fire Commissioners matter on his land, and he fails to comply of New South Wales and the New South with such notice, the council may authorize Wales Bush Fire Committee support the any of its servants, agents, workmen or amendments. officers or members of a bush-fire brigade to enter the land and do any or all of the Under section 10 of the Bush Fires Act things that are required to be done by the it is necessary at all times for any person owner, and the expenses involved in doing who desires to clear his land by fire or to such acts shall be borne by and may be burn a fire break to notify adjoining land­ recovered as a debt from the owner in holders of his intention. During a bush­ any court of competent jurisdiction. fire danger period, he must also obtain a permit to. burn from the local council or At the request of the Local Government a person authorized by the council. At the Association and individual councils the sec­ present time, a public authority, defined in tion is to be amended to provide that ex­ the Act as any board, commission, trust or penses incurred by a council under the other body, corporate or unincorporate, section shall be a charge against the land established by or under any Act for any in question as well as a debt recoverable public purpose, is not ;required to obtain a at law. The amendment is based on pro­ permit to burn. It is, however, obliged to visions in the Local Government Act in give notice of intention to burn to adjoin­ relation to the charge of a rate under that ing landholders. Act on the land in respect of which it is Public authorities have considerable levied and the time within which proceed­ assets throughout the State which must be ings for recovery may be taken. The prin­ protected from the danger of bush fires. ciple followed is the same as that under­ As an indication of the extent of some of lying section 474 of the Local Government these assets, the Department of Railways Act. That section is similar to section 14 maintains approximately 10,000 miles of of the Bush Fires Act in that it empowers tracks in New South Wales. Under some a council to clear land of noxious plants weather conditions it is difficult to decide when the owner of the land fails to comply whether to refrain from burning off and with a notice to carry out that work. risk the likelihood of fires originating from The indiscriminate letting off of fire­ the unburnt vegetation on railway lands or works during a bush-fire danger period is to continue hazard reduction operations an extremely hazardous practice and rep­ with the possibility of fire escaping. The resents a potential threat to lives and pro­ Government has been asked by the Shires perty. I feel sure, therefore, that honour­ Association and many shire councils to able members will endorse the proposal in amend the Act to require public authori­ the bill to make it an offence to sell, offer ties to obtain permits from councils in the for sale, ignite, throw down or drop any same manner as other landholders to en­ firework in any part of the State in respect sure that a uniform policy on burning off of which a bush-fire danger period is fixed is followed. or declared. By-law 165 under the Fire It has been decided to approach the Brigades Act provides that no person shall matter in a different way. On the recom­ light any fire whatsoever in any place where mendation of the Bush Fire Committee it is the lighting of such fire would be likely to proposed to provide that where a council be dangerous to buildings, without having determines that the fire danger is so serious first obtained permission in writing from the that permits for burning-off fires within officer-in-charge of the nearest fire station~ 2596 .Bush Fires and Fire [COUNCIL] Brigades (Amendment) Bill

The by-law, however, has effect only in mittee to authorize local councils to approve municipalities and shires in which the Fire of exhibitions taking place in their areas. Bri.~~:ades Act applies. There is no com­ The Government feels that local councils Darable provision in the Bush Fires Act. can be relied upon to ensure that· approvals The Shires Association of New South are given only when they are satisfied that Wales has supported requests by several it is absolutely safe to do so. I commend councils that a provision similar to by-law the bill to the House. 165 be inserted in the Bush Fires Act to [The President left the chair at 6.26 p.m. meet difficulties experienced in regard to The House resumed at 7.48 p.m.] the burning of old building materials. An The Ron. E. G. WRIGHT [7.50]: The appropriate regulation-making power has Australian continent from time to time is been included in the bill. Section 12 ( 1) scourged by three disasters-flood, drought (b) of the Bush Fires Act in its present and bush fires. Whereas we have a period form provides that any person who permits of years between flood disasters and a fire to escape from his own land under droughts, we cannot say the same of bush such circumstances as to cause or be likely fires. They are with us all the time. I to cause injury or damage to the person, have figures to show that New South Wales land or property of another person or the bush-fire brigades attend roughly 3,000 land or property of the Crown or a public bush fires per annum, not all of magnitude authority shall be guilty of an offence. A or severity, but nevertheless bush fires that prosecution launched by the police authori­ have been reported to, and dealt with by ties under this section failed on the grounds the bush-fire brigades of New South Wales. that the person proceeded against was the Australia has about 665,000,000 acres or lessee of the land in question and not the 1,200,000 square miles which are prone to owner. bush fires. Queensland has a total area of It is proposed to remove this obvious 667,000 square miles of which 500,000 anomaly by extending the provisions of the square miles are fire prone. In other words section to occupiers of property. For the 75 per cent of the area is prone to fire. purposes of the Act, "occupier" in relation New South Wales is 309,000 square miles to land means the person who has the in area and 280,000 square miles are bush­ management or beneficial use of the land fire prone-90 per cent. The Northern whether residing thereon or not. The Territory with an area of 523,000 square amendments contained in the bill are for miles has an area of 105,000 square miles the purpose of rectifying certain anomalies prone to bush fires, or 20 per cent of the and weaknesses in the existing legislation area. Western Australia with an area of and generally to assist all those men and 976,000 square miles has 100,000 square organizations that are providing the State miles prone to fires-or 10 per cent. South with an outstanding community service in Australia's area is 380,000 square miles and protecting life and property from the 100,000 square miles, or 25 per cent of ravages of fire. the area, is bush-fire prone. Victoria has an area of 88,000 square miles and the Following the passage of the bill through whole of it-100 per cent-is bush-fire all stages in anothE'1r place, representations prone. Tasmania, with an area of 26,000 have been received requesting that provi­ square miles, again is 100 per cent bush­ sion be made in the legislation to permit fire prone. Similarly, the Australian Capital the conduct of organized fireworks exhibi­ Territory with an area of 938,000 square tions on special occasions such as centenary miles has the whole of its area-938,000 celebrations and Royal visi,ts, and at func­ square miles-prone to bush fires. tions such as army tattoos and agricultural shows. The Government sees no objection It will be seen that a large proportion of to this proposal provided that the exhibi­ the area of each State is under the threat tions are conducted in suitable locations of bush fires which cause considerable dam­ and adequate safeguards are employed to age. I shall refer to the damage caused in protect life and property. It is proposed the various States by bush fires. In 1956- therefore to move an amendment in Com- 57 in New South Wales, 117,000 acres were The Hon. !. B. M. Fuller] Bush Fires and Fire [1 DEC., 1965] Brigades (Amendment) Bill 2597 destroyed by bush fires. In 1957-58 the are advised by the travel agencies not to area devastated was 538,000 acres. That visit the areas because they have been was one of our bad years ; I think 1939 burned out. Closer to home, in the metro­ was the worst. In 1958-59, 10,000 acres politan area, our cultural and recreational were damaged by fire. In contrast to these pursuits are affected, for people do not wish figures, an examination of Victoria shows to visit the Royal National Park or the Ku­ that in 1956-57 that State had 115 acres ring-gai Chase after they have been affected destroyed; in 1957-58 the area destroyed by bush fires. Some of the national parks was 218,000 acres. In 1958-59, 257,000 close to Sydney have been completely or acres were destroyed. partially denuded of scenic beauty. The The money value of the damage is hard causes of bush fires have been the subject to assess, though the New South Wales of much discussion. Some people say that bush-fire brigades made an attempt to ob­ many are caused by the reflected rays of tain some figures. The best they could do was the sun from pieces of glass, steel, or some to say that during the past eight years the other shiny object; but the bush-fire bri­ yearly damage varied between £40,000 and gades, after research, do not agree with this £6,319,000, with an average of £1,250,000 view. per annum. I am pleased that the Minister The Hon. ASHER JoEL: Many bush fires has brought down an amendment to the in the Royal National Park were started Bush Fires Act. We welcome any legisla­ deliberately. tion aimed at alleviating the misery created by bush fires-legislation that will protect The Hon. E. G. WRIGHT: That is so. the lives and property of the victims of this I have here an analysis of forest fires in menace. Australia, based on records available for Apart from damage in terms of money, 1956-57 and 1957-58. It discloses that I have here, listed under eight headings, burning-off is the greatest factor in every the damage caused by bush fires. The list State. In New South Wales it was respon­ mentions loss of life ; loss of agriculture, sible for 61 per cent of bush fires. The crops, grass, buildings, fences and livestock ; research discloses, also, that smokers, loss of homes ; damage to public property, tourists and travellers were responsible for such as telegraph, electricity, roads, rail­ 17 per cent ; lightning 8 per cent ; trains ways, and so on ; and damage to forests, and bush locomotives 2 per cent ; industrial whether privately or State owned. Also, it operations, including logging, 2 per cent ; mentions damage to soil and water sup­ tractors, cars, and so on, 2 per cent ; and plies. In explanation of the final item, it miscellaneous known causes, 8 per cent. is not generally known that when a bush The figures relating to bush fires can be fire burns all the vegetation and humus on taken in conjunction with those I have just the ground the earth becomes like baked given. This analysis shows the cause of clay; it resists absorption of water, and bush fires other than forest fires in Australia. when the rain comes it runs off the surface In New South Wales, burning off accounted as though it were glass. As a result, erosion for 39 per cent of the fires; cigarettes and occurs and the earth is taken by the water matches 8 per cent; camp fires 10 per cent; into the creeks and rivers, to cause silting lightning 14 per cent; trains 5 per cent; in our water supplies. Bush fires also de­ tractors 5 per cent ; motor vehicles 2 per stroy wild life. One can readily appreciate cent ; domestic 2 per cent ; miscellaneous the direct destruction of animals that are known causes 15 per cent. There are no caught in the flames. However, birds and figures to show the number of fires caused animals are destroyed indirectly when the by deliberate lighting. People closely fires burn the insects upon which they live. associated with national parks, reserves and Many people do not appreciate the loss rural areas know that some fires are caused of scenic and recreation values of our coun­ deliberately or by carelessness. Recently tryside. When bush fires burn portions of, in Ku-ring-gai Chase three young men went say, the Kosciusko State Park or some along the Cowan waters in a cruiser. They other national park, tourists from overseas went ashore and lit a fire to boil the billy. 2598 Bush Fires and Fire [COUNCIL] Brigades (Amendment) Bill The fire quickly got out of hand and, square miles. In Australia the average area although the young men did their best, burned is 9,000 square miles; in the United 10,000 acres of Ku-ring-gai Chase that was States of America 6,000 square miles. In once beautiful bushland is now a mass of Australia £3,000,000 is expended on fire charred ashes and debris. protection ; in the United States of America £14,000,000 is provided to prevent and to The Minister said that in New South combat bush fires. Wales there are 2,500 bush-fire brigades with more than 100,000 members. That is Finance is the crux of bush-fire fighting a remarkable achievement. The bush-fire and prevention. The easiest way to combat brigades were established only in 1949, a fire is to get it in its early stages. This when the Hon. J. M. Baddeley was the Chief can only be done by a system of spotting, Secretary and the Hon. James McGirr was what is called fire detection. Spotters Premier. Since that time an organization has should be employed in towers or prefer­ been built up that is renowned for its effici­ ably in helicopters. The State should own ency and devotion to duty. These bush-fire one or two helicopters that could be used brigades rank with any in the world in by the Lands Department, the Police De­ techniques and equipment and have been partment, the Maritime Services Board and responsible for saving many lives and thou­ other government bodies. When a fire is sands, probably millions, of pounds worth of spotted in its early stages from a helicopter, property and stock. the fire fighters could be directed to the spot by speedy water craft, jeep or landrover. A Here let me pay a well-deserved tribute fire caught in its early stages will show very to the members of the volunteer bush-fire little obstinacy to the men battling with it. brigades of New South Wales. Very little Bush fires travel very rapidly, and once is heard of this body of men ; they come to they have taken hold many men and a their jobs unheralded and leave them un­ large amount of equipment are necessary to sung. These men can be compared to our combat them, and more time must be spent lifesavers, but where there is some glamour to put them out. Everyone knows that attached to the lifesavers on our beaches wind plays an important part in the ac­ and there is some relaxation and enjoyment celeration of fire, but I have here some for them, the job of the bush-fireman has figures of the speed of fire based on normal no glamour and there is certainly no relaxa­ temperatures and low wind velocity. When tion, it is hard and stifling work, where they the rate of travel of the head fire is 1 mile do not have time to have a glass of water, an hour, it has probably burnt out 100 let alone a glass of beer, and have very little acres fifteen minutes after it started. At to eat. These men have given their time thirty minutes it will have burnt out 400 voluntarily without any thought of recog­ acres, and at sixty minutes 1,600 acres. nition. Their only reward is the knowledge When the rate of travel of the head fire is that they have done some good for their 4 miles an hour, it will probably have fellow men. burnt 800 acres in fifteen minutes, 2,500 I am informed that about £3,000,000 acres in thirty minutes and 6,000 acres in is made available every year througout the sixty minutes. That gives an indication Commonwealth to finance fire brigades for of the rapidity of bush fires once they take the protection of State forests, fire breaks, hold. I repeat that the best method of the maintenance of fire control organiza­ combating a bush fire is to get fire fighters tions and equipment. In the United States on the spot early so that they can deal with of America bush-fire fighters are paid, but it in its infancy. I do not believe they are paid in any part The Hon. R. A. A. F. DE BRYON-FAES: of Australia. The area of Australia is Do those rates of acceleration apply in all 2,974,000 square miles and the area of the types of country? United States of America is 3,220,000 square miles. In Aus·tralia 1,200,000 square The Hon. E. G. WRIGHT: No, not in miles· ai:e prone to damage by rural fires ; all country, but generally. I am more the figure in the United States is 1,000,000 familiar with conditions in the metropolitan The Hon. E. G. Wright] ,Bush Fires and Fire [1 DEC., 1965) Brigades (Amendment) Bill 2599 area than in the more sparsely settled parts, Primitive Area. In March, a total of about as in western New South Wales. The Outer 31,930 acres were burned. The individual Sydney Bush Fire Prevention Organization, major fires are listed in the report, but which does most of the bush-fire fighting as there are fourteen of them enumerated in and round Sydney gives in its report I shall not read them to the House. They for the 1964-65 fire season a detailed ac­ included about 5,000 acres of Ku-ring-gai count of bush fires in August, September, Chase, 2,700 acres of Muogomurra October, November and December, 1964, Sanctuary and 200 acres of Royal National and January, February and March, 1965. I Park. A summary of these figures shows shall not read all of the figures, but in that of 126,500 acres in Hornsby shire August, 1964, apart from many minor fires 22,000 acres were burned, the percentage that were not recorded, the major bush fires of the shire burned being 17.4 and the included one at Coasters Retreat, where a percentage of the total burned was 30.1. fire caused by a resident burning rubbish Of the 91,500 acres of Sutherland shire, burned about 50 acres. At Manly reservoir, 21,400 acres were burned, which was 23.3 a fire, the cause of which was unknown, per cent of the area of the shire and 29.3 burned about 40 acres. At Mackerel Beach per cent of the total area burned. Warrin­ a fire resulting presumably from burning­ gah shire, which has 65,200 acres had off devastated 100 acres. That was a total 8,200 acres burned, which was 12.5 per of about 190 acres burned in August, in­ cent of the shire and 11.2 per cent of the cluding 80 acres in Ku-ring-gai Chase. In total area burned. The total area of these September of that year there were few three shires is 283,200 acres, of which bush fires in the metropolitan area, the 51,600 acres was burned, which is 70.6 only one recorded burning 150 acres of per cent of the total area burned. · Royal National Park. In October the worst Honourable members are probably more fires were at North Turramurra, where 250 conscious of fire damage to dedicated park­ acres were burned ; Georges River National land. The report discloses that 11,900 Park, 200 acres ; at Smith's Creek to the acres of Ku-ring-gai Chase were burned outskirts of Duffy's Forest, in Ku-ring-gai in the period that I have mentioned; 15,300 Chase, a fire started by fishermen and some· acres of Royal National Park; 3,700 acres smaller fires burned 1,900 acres. At Emu of Muogomurra Sanctuary and its water­ Plains a fire that escaped to the Blue Moun­ front ; 200 acres of Georges River National tains burned about 150 acres, and at North Park ; and 2,000 acres of Heathcote Primi­ Engadine a fire that jumped Prince's High­ tive Area. That is a total of 33,100 acres way and threatened Gray's Point and Suth­ of those national parks that were erland, burned about 900 acres. The total devastated by fire. Honourable members for that month of 3,400 acres included will realize how necessary it is for every 1,900 acres in Ku-ring-gai Chase, 700 precaution to be taken. The bill will help acres in Royal National Park and 200 this to be done and will ensure that our acres in Georges River National Park. bush-fire brigades are assisted and that In November, 1964, about 4.750 acres every encouragement is given to them to were destroyed, including about 3,200 acres carry on the good work that they are in Ku-ring-gai Chase and about 100 acres doing. in Royal National Park. In December, The Minister told the House that one about 15,050 acres were destroyed, in­ of the reasons why the bush-fire brigades cluding 1,050 acres in Ku-ring-gai Chase have increased their efficiency was the co­ and 6,600 acres in Royal National Park. operation that they have received from the In January, 1965, about 10,900 acres were public. When co-operation is forthcoming destroyed, including 500 acres in Ku-ring­ it ·makes the job of the brigades much gai Chase and 7,600 acres in Royal easier. The fire fighters are encouraged National Park. In February of the same in their task of saving life and property year about 6,200 acres were destroyed by from the ravages of bush fires. I con­ bush fire in the metropolitan area, includ­ clude by repeating my opening remarks: ing about 2,000 acres of the Heathcote my colleagues and I welcome the bill and 2600 .Bush Fires and Fire [COUNCIL] Brigades (Amendment) Bill any other bill that will give relief from seen this happen more than once in my time bush fires, assist in the detection of fires -and I hope no honourable member here and aid bush-fire fighting generally. has had disastrous experiences similar to those that I have had from bush fires. I The Hon. J. M. CARTER [8.19]: I am do not suppose anyone in New South Wales pleased to see in the bill two important has suffered as much as I have from bush amendments that I have been trying to in­ fires, so I am speaking from the heart. fluence people to introduce as legislation for some time. I do not suggest for one One way in which we suffer because of a minute that the Government has brought in statutory date having been set, is that the bill because I suggested it, but these people have been allowed to burn off when are definitely important amendments. The conditions have been completely unsafe. first amendment to which I refer is that Generally speaking the bad fire will start permitting flexibility in the date on which only under certain conditions. I mean a burning-off operations may start and the really significant fire. These fires start when date on which they must cease. There has temperatures of 100 degrees obtain for a never been any problem about the date on week at a time, or even for a day, and a gale which they must start, or can start, because wind blows, as happened in 1951-1952, a that is in the autumn. The grass is at its period in which 2,334 fires broke out, six minimum through the summer, being static, lives were lost and damage estimated at and it has been trampled by the stock. The £6,500,000 was caused. During that year days are shorter and conversely the nights the Mangoplah fire started close to Wagga are longer. There is probably a little dew and Wagga and burned to the Murray River. with the winter ahead there is little danger This fire was a classic illustration of what of causing bush fires by any burning-off op­ should not be done. The wind was so high erations. The position is different indeed on that day that no fire brigade, however when a date is rigidly fixed for preventing large its fighting force, however abundant burning-off, as one gets all sorts of different its equipment and however efficient, could conditions then. In a single district there have done anything to stop it. The fire may be a bush-fire hazard on flat country, spread so quickly that one settler saw the whereas other sloped country is still rela­ fire run completely under his house and tively green. Where there is a statutory date come out the other side without doing any set, a person feels perfectly entitled to go on damage. Another settler saw his house burning-off while the country will not bum burst into flames while the fire was still and while the date of prohibition is still some distance away. On that day there in the distance. The illusion of safety is were many other fires all over New South given because on the top of the ground Wales. the grass is fairly green, not burnable, ·hut In the Mangoplah fire, houses, out­ ail the time, unnoticed, the roots of trees buildings, stock, fencing and crops were are burning underground, especially in box destroyed. Even sheep dogs were burned country. on that day. This fire originated in burning­ Next to Gidgeewood, box is probably the off operations which should never have been best burning timber we have. The roots permitted and will not be permitted under burn underground for weeks at a time and this bill. As a direct result of this fire the give off tremendous heat in their tunnels. Government of the day was called upon to They make their own draught and eventu­ pay very substantial damages, and, conse­ ally the heat from the tunnel itself starts quent upon it, introduced a bill-1 did not a fire in the grass or else the root comes up like it much-limiting to £2,000 the dam­ through the top of the soil and starts the ages payable by the Government to any grass burning. While the weeks are passing single settler. Probably the assessment of with the roots burning underground, the damages caused by bush fires will have to grass is drying off and it is at its most be looked at fairly soon. Two or three burnable stage. It is at its maximum growth, times in my experience after burning-off is full of gas and perhaps some of the operations along the railway tracks or in earlier grasses are carrying seed. I have other places the Government has had to Bush Fires and Fire [1 DEc., 1965] Brigades (Amendment) Bill 2601

pay very large damages. To my certain who will be the next victim. Nevertheless knowledge on one occasion at least many it is true that people in the bush will attend of the assessments of damage were grossly a bush fire very rapidly. The Hon. E. G. exaggerated and the Government was Wright mentioned the use of helicopters really stung. I have known many other for spotting fires. I can appreciate the value bush fires that have been started deliber­ of a helicopter for directing operations. ately or through carelessness and, so far This would be the real purpose of the heli­ as I know, no damages have ever been ob­ copter. I assume helicopters are used, but tained from private persons. This is some­ I do not know that they are. thing that wi11 have to be looked at. The next amendment that I feel is very These recurring disasters are the worst important is the inclusion of the names of afflictions that the primary producer, the local personnel on the panel from which man on the land, suffers. He can, up to a the controllers can be called. If the Minis­ point, make provision for drought, and the ter proposes to reply to this debate, I should land will soon recover after floods, but it like him to explain two or three things will not recover for at least twenty years about which I am not quite sure. As the after severe bush fires, because the humus law now stands, an emergency fire controller is burned and the seed of the clover and the may be appointed only when a bush fire has grasses, which would have produced the actually assumed such proportions as to be pastures for the next year, are burned. If incapable of control or suppression by the the cover is sufficiently heavy, the fire will fire-fighting authority or authorities in even burn the roots of the perennials. There whose area or locality it is burning. have always been bush fires in New South The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: That is the Wales. It is interesting to read of them in present provision. the very first dispatch that Governor Phillip sent to the Secretary of State, Lord Sydney, The Hon. J. M. CARTER: This is in the on 15th May, 1788. It reads: present Act. In all the country thro' which I have The Hon. R. R. DowNING: The provision passed I have seldom gone a quarter of a mile without seeing trees which appear to have in this bill alters it. been destroyed by fire. We have seen very heavy thunderstorms and I believe the gum The Hon. J. M. CARTER: Yes. trees strongly attract the lightning, but the natives always make their fire, if not before The Hon. R. R. DoWNING: It is a bit their own huts, at the mot of a gum tree, which late. burn very freely and-- · The Hon. J. M. CARTER: It does not The Hon. F. H. CocKERILL: Why? mean a thing to me: it does not make The Hon. J. M. CARTER: I do not sense. I cannot imagine anything like that know. The quotation continues: happening. It goes on to say that the committee has recommended that the --they never put a fire out when they leave section be further amended to enable a place. an emergency fire controller to be Incidentally, they are not the only people appointed where it appears likely that who do not put fires out when they leave a a fire will pass beyond control. Who place. If those people did put them out, will judge that? Nobody knows when there would not be the large number of a fire will get beyond control. Even with fires that occur. Traditionally, country really good firemen, fires cannot always be people will rush to fight a bush fire as soon controlled-even if they are dealt with al­ as they see smoke or by some other means most as soon as they start. I do not want are made aware of the fire. It is true that to reminisce but I recali that a few years there is a measure of self-interest in this. ago I was going across country looking for The bush fire may be on somebody else's sheep about 3 o'clock in the morning. I place at the moment, but one does not know had a man with me and we came to a on whose place it will be by nightfall, where tree that had been struck by lightning in the vagaries of the wind will turn it, or a thunderstorm the night before. The top 2602 Bush Fires and Fire [COUNCIL] Brigades (Amendment) Bill of the tree was alight and little bits of ing. I have had vast experience with bush burning wood were falling round the tree. fires and in my view the men of the local Because of the rain the night before the panel are the only persons who could pro­ grass round the tree was moist and no perly conduct the fighting of a fire. damage by fire was being done. I knew The Hon. EILEEN FURLEY [8.34]: I that as soon as the sun came up the fire shall refer briefly to one aspect that has not would get away, so I sent the man to tele­ been touched upon to any great extent. I phone for help. Soon afterwards fifteen point out that this dreadful scourge that men arrived to help. The wind got up to descends on us every season is largely man­ gale force ; the sun rose and the day got made. It is not like floods or other acts hotter. Burning timber fell farther and of God: to a large extent it is possible to farther away and then a little bit of burn­ prevent this peril. The matter to which I ing timber fell farther away than the others wish to refer is the fire-proofing of homes and the fifteen men could not stop the fire. in bush-fire areas. I know that something It became an enormous bush fire. has been done. Last year I inquired from The Hon. A. A. ALAM: That was not the department concerned whether large­ human frailty. That was beyond human scale publicity had been given to already •Control. proven methods of fire-proofing homes. I was told that the department knew about The Hon. J. M. CARTER: I do not it but little had been circulated-not for think it possible to say when a fire appears any particular reason, but simply because likely to get beyond control. this was one of the things no one had The Hon. A. A. ALAM: Most fires start thought much about. I referred the officers ·through human frailty. to a report which I had then ; I have it here also. This report was prepared in The Hon. J. M. CARTER: I do not 1944 after the disastrous Beaumaris fires .accept that altogether. It is impossible to in Victoria when the Commonwealth tell at any stage when a fire will get out of Scientific and Industrial Research Organiza­ control. Whenever it is alight it is out of tion was asked to investigate the tragedy -control ; the very fact that it is alight means when sixty-six homes were destroyed. The ·that it is out of control. Honourable mem­ area in which the fire occurred was only bers will be interested to know that in the 1,500 acres and contained only 208 homes. "coming summer the panel of names from It was discovered that the main fire area which the controller in an emergency can had been covered with dead scrub. The ·be selected, has been strengthened by the people who lived in the homes did not want .inclusion of the names of local persons in to interfere with the rural beauty surround­ a bush-fire brigade. In my view they would ing them and so left all the shrubs and be the only ones who could deal with a bushes close to their homes without burning local bush fire. I should say that 50 per fire breaks or undertaking any clearing. cent of the value of the man in charge of fighting a bush fire is that he knows the The investigator, Mr G. J. Barrow, dis­ 1ocal country or where there is a handy covered, also, that the fire did not discrimi­ gully to which he can send his forces on nate among brick, timber, or fibro-cement the chance that the fire may be halted homes. It was a matter of the home that ·there. He knows who has only a little was best prepared that survived, regardless feed and who has a considerable quantity ; of type of construction. Brick homes were he knows what he is doing. To send a no more fire-resistant than timber homes, ·man from another district or from Sydney despite the fact that brick-veneer and con­ to conduct the fighting against a bush fire crete homes were mostly more favourably 'is completely hopeless. These local men located in that they were usually sur­ rounded by well-kept gardens. Brick houses -.have been put on the panel. I think it is in some cases were completely gutted ; on "overloaded now and I hope that those who the other hand, some timber houses escaped ·have been chosen from the local panel completely from damage, even though -will be the ones to conduct the fire fight- branches of burning trees fell across the ,Bush Fires and Fire [1 DEc., 1965] Brigades (Amendment) Bill 2603 roof. The homes that resisted ignition were • Large ventilators in gable ends should homes into which burning debris could not be eliminated and replaced by a number of scattered small ventilators with fine mesh find entrance. Open windows and doors openings. were an open invitation to fire debris to 0 Eaves should prefembly be completely sweep through the bouse and gut it from boxed, but if left open should be covered by the inside. All homes burned were burned fine-mesh wire netting. from the inside. Wall ventilators, louvres • Badly fitting tiles are a source of danger. and underfioor vents were pathways for • The space under the corrugations of cor­ the fire unless fitted with wire screens. rugated roofing should be closed at the eaves, Houses with eaves boxed in with fibro­ ridges, hips, and valleys. cement sheets or completely boarded in 0 Fly-wire window screens and doors are were less infi'ammable than those with open beneficial. eaves with places where leaves and sticks 0 Trees and shrubs should be kept clear could accumulate and catch alight. Even of the walls. badly-fitting tiles were a bad risk. The fire 0 Stacks of fuel should be well clear of the walls or stored in properly constructed sheds. could get underneath the tiles, setting the And it is worth remembering that at least roof alight from inside. Then the whole some protection can be gained when a bush­ house went. fire threatens one's home by remembering to shut the windows and doors. Even corrugated-iron roofs were not com­ pletely safe. A scalloped fascia board fit­ I realize that many honourable members are ting tightly into the corrugations of the aware of these things but, as we are debat­ iron was a protection ; if this was not there ing this important measure and paying tri­ the fire could get underneath the corruga­ bute to the wonderful work of bush-fire tions in the iron. According to this report brigades and the selfless sacrifices made by the chances of a house surviving this type their members, the least we can do is to urge of bush fire are determined more by the the authorities concerned with home build­ nature of the surroundings and the details ing to disseminate this information for the of the home construction than the materials protection of people in these areas. In this used. I pause to wonder why more empha­ way we could lighten the load on the bush­ sis has not been placed upon this particular fire brigades. aspect of home building in rural areas so The Hon. W. J. GERAGHTY [8.;1-2]: I that people may be aware of what they can support the measure and wish to comment do to avoid the tragedy of losing their on some of the matters raised by the Hon. homes. This applies especially now, when E. G. Wright and the Hon. J. M. Carter. more and more new citizens are spreading The Hon. E. G. Wright complimented the out into the country and rural areas. They bush-fire organization on its businesslike and have no knowledge of what a bush fire efficient organization, apart from the won­ can do ; they have no knowledge of its derful work done by the volunteer fire terror. Therefore, some guide and explicit fighters. When one can isolate causes, it is instructions appear to be required so that possible to work out preventive measures. people will be able to understand what they Therefore, it is interesting to learn from will be able to do to prevent a bush fire the Hon. E. G. Wright that 61 per cent spreading and so avoid experiencing this of forest fires are caused by burning off. dreadful loss of a home, with perhaps the loss of lives of members of their family. The Hon. J. M. Carter showed, as usual, We should try to have uniformity in fire­ his knowledge of rural life. I was interested proof home building in rural areas. Mr to hear him speak of the Mangoplah fire, for I visited the area not long after it Barrow, in summing up his findings after occurred. However, he did not mention his investigation into this fire, said: that the railway siding also was burned • In timber homes, the walls below floor out. While I appreciate that many of the level should be close boarded, ventilation being fires are accidental, some are not. There­ provided by woven wire vents. fore, the Hon. E. G. Wright, in his liaison • All vents should be of the woven wire type or else covered by a fine mesh. with the bush-fire organization, might urge 2604 Bush Fires and Fire [COUNCIL] Brigades (Amendment) Bill more use being made of sections 44 and they will put a fire through. They deliber­ 49 of the Bush Fires Act. These sections ately light fires prior to the spring rains should be applied more stringently when a to get a green shoot for their stock, which person is being dealt with for deliberately are carefully herded out of the road while causing a fire. The magistrate in the Mait­ the fire is burning. These people cause the land district is doing a good job, for when fires to go roaring through the countryside, he finds any person guilty of such an offence sweeping everything aside, destroying valu­ he clouts him really hard. Indeed, I believe able timber, wildlife and everything else, that he has imposed one or two gaol sen­ just for the satisfaction of a green shoot tences for this offence. On the other hand, that will fatten their cattle and give them magistrates in many other districts do not a few measly pounds. pay the same regard to these two sections Everything should be done by the bush­ of the Act. fire organizations in this State to have the When I speak of deliberate burning off, I full penalties prescribed by sections 44 and am thinking mostly of the coastal timber 49 of the Bush Fires Act imposed. I pay tri­ areas. Like the Hon. J. M. Carter, I can bute to the wonderful job the bush-fire speak from personal experience ; I have brigades are doing, to their equipment and been burned out twice on two small pro­ their training. However, this aspect de­ perties. In one instance a howling westerly mands their keenest attention. We should wind was blowing. Early in the morning make sure that everyone who deliberately at three points on the range to the west I starts a fire of this kind gets everything he noticed three separate fires spring up in the deserves-by being sent to Long Bay for period that it would take a man on a smart the three years provided for in the Act. pony to cover the distances involved. When I noticed the fires, I started off to a part The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER (Minister of the fire-break that I knew had become for Decentralisation and Development) a little dirty. I spent a few hours there with [8.48], in reply: The Hon. E. G. Wright axe and rake. However, the fire was travel­ submitted some interesting statistics on the ling at such a terrific pace that nothing incidence of bush fires, and I was most in­ could be done. In the meantime my wife terested to hear that 61 per cent of forest had brought me a billy of tea, and we were fires are caused by burning-off and another cut off from the house where the three little 17 per cent are attributable to the careless kiddies had been left. Although we man­ use of camp fires and smoking. That em­ aged to break through we became badly phasizes that this national problem is due singed in the process. We got back to the largely to the careless use of fire, and it house, but the fire was so terrific that it is clear that we probably need increased burned four houses in the locality, and in publicity campaigns on the danger and the the afternoon the police from Wyong rang national loss occasioned by fires generally. through to report to the stationmaster that The Hon. E. G. WRIGHT: The statistics we had been completely burned out. The show that 94 per cent are man made. stationmaster came out on his pony and found that we were stiii there. The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER: That is correct. Having served for more than Although the house was saved, twelve twenty years as the secretary of a bush-fire months' work on improvements, fences, and brigade, I know something about this sub­ so on, was all gone. That fire had been ject. Indeed, at times I am still called upon deliberately caused by a rather wealthy man at week-ends to get out and wield something in the area-a man with big leaseholds on that is becoming too heavy for me. The which he was running scrub cattle. It is honourable member mentioned, also, the still the accepted practice in many of these money that is being spent on fire control areas, which are second-rate timber coun­ try, and not good farming land, to have in the United States of America and in mine reserves and leases that can be taken Australia. Those figures reveal that, per out for a small amount of money. After capita, both countries are spending about the winter the leaseholders get the idea that the same ; on those figures we might be The Hon. W. J. Geraghty] Bush Fires and Fire [1 DEC., 1965] Brigades (Amendment) Bill 2605 slightly ahead. Also, I believe that nation­ this bill. I have no doubt that at a later ally we are contributing as much as we stage the question of limiting the amount should to the control of fires in this State, that the Crown may be liable for in rela­ and probably in the Commonwealth. The tion to fires off railways lands will be con­ suggestion that helicopters could be used sidered. There will still be the problem more extensively is worthy of close exami­ of careless people throwing cigarettes out nation. I believe that in Canada, particu­ of train windows and the question whether larly, the use of aircraft is to some extent cigarettes thrown out of train windows being supplemented by helicopters. As the start fires. However, that is beyond the Canadians have a world reputation for fire ambit of this bill. fighting and fire prevention, we could with The Ron. J. M. Carter referred to the advantage study their methods. appointment of emergency fire controllers The Ron. J. M. Carter contributed greatly and the conditions in which they are to the debate from his experience and appointed. The honourable member said he raised a query regarding the bush-fire that in the past emergency controllers have danger period. He probably has not real­ been appointed only when a bush fire has ized that the statutory bush-fire danger assumed such proportions as to be incap­ period starts on 1st October each year and able of control or suppression by the fire­ continues to the next 31st March. How­ fighting authorities in whose area or locality ever, recently local councils have been em­ it is burning. As I mentioned earlier, it powered to extend that period, and this has been found that by the time the emer­ amendment goes even further and enables gency controller is appointed the fire has councils to delegate this authority to the got out of hand. The intention in this shire president between council meetings, amendment is that the shire president may which may be anything up to a month makt! this decision should he feel that a apart. The shire president can extend the fire is likely to pass beyond the capacity bush-fire danger period and have the de­ of the local fire-fighting authority. Again cision ratified at the next meeting of coun­ I can say that there would be no one in a cil. This will assist greatly in fire fight­ better position to judge local conditions ing in this State, because no one would than the shire president, acting on the ad­ have a better idea of the conditions in any vice of the engineer and other members of area than councillors and shire presidents. the council staff and, I have no doubt, the captains of the bush-fire brigades in the I appreciate that the railways have been area. This provision should enable the blamed for many fires in New South Wales. appointment of emergency controllers in No doubt they have been responsible for sufficient time to enable them to take up at least some of those for which they have office and plan for the control of the fire been blamed. Under the amendment pro­ before it gets out of hand. posed, councils can, by stipulating periods when there will be no burning-off, auto­ The Ron. J. M. Carter said that local matically prevent any statutory body from fire fighters should be included on the panels lighting fires to burn off. That covers the from which the emergency fire controllers point made by the Ron. J. M. Carter. Now may be appointed. I think it is important there will be some measure of control over that these panels have added to them people the Department of Railways and the with local experience. In the past I have Forestry Department, though I do not think criticized the fact that often a police officer the Forestry Department in the past has perhaps coming from the metropoli­ been in any way negligent, and is in a tan area into a country district, was auto­ category different from railway fettler matically placed on the panel of emergency gangs who have perhaps not been acting controllers, and as a result possibly some­ under efficient supervision. one with no knowledge of the local terrain and no knowledge of fire conditions in the The question of claims for damages area would be put in control of a fire. I against the Government or the Department have no doubt that this right of local coun­ of Railways is not within the ambit of cils to nominate to the panel residents of 2606 Bush Fires Bill [COUNCIL] Gas and Electricity Bill their own area will be availed of frequently. that area and specified in that approval, a person shall not be As a result, the members of the panels will guilty of an offence under sub­ be of a much higher standard. section three of this section by The Hon. Eileen Furley referred to the reason only of- fireproofing of homes. This is a field to (a) his igniting, throwing down or dropping any firework or which more research and publicity could burning or incandescent be given. In its publicity campaigns in the material, if he proves that last few years the Bush Fire Committee he did so on that land has stressed the importance of protecting during that period; or homes and has listed five important points: (b) his selling any firework, or the essential need to clean leaves from all offering any firework for sale, if he proves that he gutters, to fit gauze to windows and doors, sold the firework, or offered to block openings in eaves, particularly the firework for sale, for underneath galvanized iron roofs, to clear use at that display. away rubbish and undergrowth from fences This is a rather lengthy and difficult amend­ and to keep trimmed any long grass in the ment to be inserted into this bill at this area. We should see that in everything stage. However, as I mentioned earlier, relating to the control of fire our publicity following the passage of the bill in another campaigns are as good as they can be. place those people responsible for the sale Through publicity and education we have of fireworks suggested that this proyision the best chance of controlling the incidence could well be inserted in the new Act so of fires and bush fires in Australia. that it would be possible for fireworks to be Motion agreed to. sold for any display, such as a Royal visit, Bill read a second time. an agricultural show or any celebration of that sort. I believe this is something that IN COMMITIEE will contribute to the bill and, if properly Clause 2 policed, will not in any way increase the danger of fire. Once again local councils Page 5 will be in control. That is the intention of 30 (c) (i) by omitting from paragraph (b) of subsection all the amendments in the bill-that the one of section twelve the words "pennits a fire to escape from his own land" and by decisions come back to the local people in inserting in lieu thereof the words "being the each area, so that they may implement what owner or occupier of any land, permits a fire 35 to escape from that land"; they may regard as proper measures in the light of the conditions obtaining at any time. Page 6 Amendment agreed to. (ii) by inserting at the end of paragraph (b) o! Clause as amended agreed to. subsection three of the same section the fol· lowing word and new paragraph :- ADOPTION OF REPORT ; or 5 (c) sells. offers for· sale, ignites, throws Bill reported with an amendment, and down or drops all.y firework ; report adopted, on motions by the Hon. J. B. M. Fuller. The Hon. J. B. M. FULLER (Minister for Decentralisation and Development) [8.57]: I move: GAS AND ELECTRICITY (SYDNEY That at page 6 after line 6 there be inserted COUNTY COUNCIL) AMENDMENT the words- Bll..L (iii) by inserting next after the same sub­ SECOND READING section the following new sub­ section:- The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister for ( 4) Where the council of an area Child Welfare, Minister for Social Welfare, has approved in writing of the Advisory Minister for Transport and Vice­ use of fireworks during any President of the Executive Council) [9.4]: period specified in that approval at any organised display to be I move: conducted on any land within That this bill be now read a second time. Gas and Electricity [1 DEc., 1965] (Sydney County Council) Bill 2607

The object of this short bill is to reconsti­ a rural district establishes an electricity tute the Sydney County Council with a undertaking, generating or purchasing power view to giving relatively better representa­ and supplying it to consumers within its tion to three of the four constituencies area. At a later date, supply is extendeq which comprise that council. As honour­ to the areas surrounding the original able members are aware, the Local Govern­ centre and, in the normal course, a county ment Act provides for the constitution of district is then constituted for the purpose county councils consisting of two or more of controlling the undertaking. In this case, adjoining local-government areas or parts not only has the undertaking been estab­ of areas to carry out on behalf of the con­ lished by the original council but it, hav­ stituent councils certain of the powers and ing a greater population, uses more of the duties conferred or imposed by the Act. power supply than does any other of the The purposes for which county councils constituent councils. In these circumstances are constituted are many, but probably the it is only fair that the council which most common of these purposes are those established an undertaking and has the relating to water supply and electricity bulk of the population should have a strong undertakings. voice ·in the management of the under­ taking, and in these cases it is usual for The Local Government Act lays down in the Minister to authorize the original coun­ relation to all county councils that, subject cil to elect a greater number of delegates to two qualifications, each area wholly or than are elected by each of the other con­ partly included in the county district shall stituent councils. be a county electorate, entitled to elect one delegate. One of the qualifications to which Though a county council is constituted, I have referred is that the Minister, in any and the delegates to be elected by each such case where he considers it just to· do constituent council are determined, it does so, may authorize a constituent council to not mean that changes cannot be made elect more than one delegate. The second in that constituency at a later date. allows the Minister to combine a number The Local Government Act in section 562 of constituent areas into one county elec­ gives the Minister power to redetermine torate, returning one or more delegates. the number of delegates to a county coun­ This power in the Minister to authorize a cil. From time to time this power is exer­ constituent area to elect more than one rep· cised when it is considered that altered resentative is often exercised for reasons conditions make it desirable that the original which are best illustrated by taking the representation on such a council should be example of a typical electricity county varied. council. If the Sydney County Council had been The Hon. J. D. KENNY: Will the Min­ constituted under the Local Government ister explain that a little more? Act, there would have been power in the Minister to reconstitute ·that council in The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: If the hon­ accordance with the provisions of the sec­ ourable member will be patient, it will un­ tion to which I have just referred. How­ fold as I proceed. ever, as honourable members are aware, this county council was constituted under The Hon. J. D. KENNY: The Minister the Gas and Electricity Act and it is there· knows that I have an interest in this fore necessary that any alteration in its matter-- constitution should be effected by special The PRESIDENT: Order! legislation, that is, other than the type of legislation applicable to other county coun­ The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: I appre­ cils. As it is considered, for reasons with ciate that, and I think the honourable mem­ which I shall deal later, that this county ber might be a little patient because I am dilating on this and the explanation which council is one which should be recon­ he seeks will come out from my subse­ stituted, it is therefore necessary to enact quent remarks. A larger council in, say, the measure now before the House. 2608 Gas and Electricity [COUNCIL] (Sydney County Council) Bill The Sydney County Council was first year for which figures are available, shows constituted in 1935 when the present Gas that the consumer population of the three and Electricity Act was passed. Among constituencies representing the local-govern­ other things, the purpose of that Act, as ment areas other than the city of Sydney, recited in the long title, was to constitute has increased at a far more rapid rate than a Sydney County Council and transfer the has that of the city of Sydney. The fol­ electricity department of the Sydney lowing figures are rounded off to the nearest Municipal Council to the new body. The thousand. At the end of 1958, the first county district was divided into three con­ constituency had a consumer population of stituencies-the first consisting of Sydney, 67,000. At the end of 1964, it was 70,000, the second consisting of twenty-five then an increase of 3,000 in six years. At the existing local-government areas situated on end of 1958 the consumer populations of the southern side of the harbour, and the the second, third and fourth constituencies third consisting of seven councils on the were, respectively: 168,000; 110,000; and northern side. The first and second con­ 112,000. At the end of 1964 these popula­ stituencies elected two representatives to the tions were: 186,000; 130,000; and 137,000 county council and the third elected one. -increases of 18,000; 20,000; and 25,000 respectively. In 1949, foiiowing the union with the city of Sydney of a number of adjacent munici­ In short, over the period of six years palities, the Sydney County Council was which elapsed since the last local-govern­ reconstituted, the number of members ment area was added to the Sydney county being increased to nine and the con­ district the population of the first con­ stituencies from three to four. The first stituency increased by approximately 4.4 per constituency comprised the city of Sydney cent, whereas those of the second, third which under the new provisions elected and fourth constituencies increased by ap­ three representatives to the county council. proximately 10.7 per cent, 18.2 per cent The second constituency comprised the and 22.3 per cent respectively. These per­ municipalities generally of the western centages have been calculated on the round suburbs, the third comprised those of the figures which I gave for consumer popula­ eastern suburbs and the fourth consisted of tion. those generaiiy on the north shore. Each The Hon. J. D. KENNY: The Minister is of these three constituencies elected two referring to the near city areas. What about representatives. country areas? The constitution of this council is the The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: I am deal­ same today. In other words, the member­ ing with the Sydney County Council, which ship of the Sydney County Council has been includes the city of Sydney as defined by static since 1949. However, the numbers the bill; that is, the city of Sydney, the area of the councils comprising the constituencies controlled at the present time by the Sydney have increased. In 1955, 1956 and 1957, City Council. I am referring also to the Sutherland, Bankstown and Hornsby were southern constituencies, which are again de­ added to the Sydney county district, being fined and generaiiy speaking consist of the included respectively in the third, second areas east and south of the harbour. Then and fourth constituencies. In 1958, the there is the western district and the northern municipality of Ashfield, and the remaining district. Those areas make up the Sydney parts of the municipalities of Leichhardt County Council district. I am not dealing and Marrickville which had previously been with any area at ail at this stage or at any supplied with electricity by the Electric stage, for that matter, other than the Sydney Light and Power Supply Corporation, were County Council district. I hope that mem­ added to the second constituency. bers will agree with me that this bill deals A comparison between the consumer only with the number of members and the population of each constituency at the end manner in which they are to be appointed of 1958, when each of the additions of to the Sydney County Council, a most im­ areas to which I have just referred were portant body, and one which has an completed, and at the end of 1964, the last enormous responsibility to undertake. The Han. A. D. Bridges] Gas and Electricity [1 DEc., 1965] (Sydney County Council) Bill 2609 The Ron. J.D. KENNY: There is no con­ second-reading speech on the bill and the nection with the Mackellar County Coun­ honourable member has no right under the cil? Standing Orders to interject. The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES: The Mackel­ The Ron. J. D. KENNY: Thank you, sir, lar County Council buys its electricity in I appreciate it. I have studied the Standing bulk. I am dealing with the operations of Orders and the debates in this House over the Sydney County Council and its duties, the years, and I understood that completely. functions, powers and responsibilities, and At least I tried to help the Minister. with nothing else. The population figures I have given show a great and increasing The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES: I always inequality between the consumer population appreciate the help given by the Ron. J. D. of the first constituency-the city of Kenny and I am sure that he is trying to Sydney-and the other three constituencies help me now, as he did yesterday. The comprising the Sydney county district. It answer to the suggestion made in another was suggested· in another place that any re­ place is simply that wherever possible the constitution of the Sydney County Council wishes of local people for local representa­ should aim at increasing the membership tion have been met, with the result that on that body rather than reducing it, and some county councils in other parts of the illustrations were given of other county State do have larger councils. But size councils in the State with larger member­ alone is no guarantee of successful adminis­ ship but considerably fewer consumers and tration and there is a large body of opinion lower consumption of energy. which feels strongly that a better organiza­ tion is achieved by retaining councils of The Ron. J.D. KENNY: That is true-­ reasonable proportions rather than that un­ wieldy bodies should be created. The PRESIDENT: Order! I think the Ron. J. D. Kenny is quite astray in his interpre­ In the case of the Sydney county dis­ tation of the bill's purposes: it concerns the trict, individual representation for each of matter of the constitution of the Sydney the twenty-five constituent areas would be County Council. The honourable member inappropriate and the advantages of having mentioned the Mackellar County Council the county council increased to, say, ten or or Mackerel Beach. The bill has no connec­ twelve members, are not apparent to the tion with them. Government ; nor, in its opinion, have any sound reasons been advanced to show that The Hon. J. D. KENNY: You might rule any increase is desirable. Some further criti­ me out of order later. cism has been directed at the Government's proposals on the ground that consumption The PRESIDENT: Order! The Minister of electricity within the four constituencies will explain the bill. of the county district is equally as important The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES: Like the as consumer population . and the statement honourable member who has inter­ was made in another place that annual con­ jected-- sumption of electricity for the first, second·, The Ron. J.D. KENNY: I am not going third and fourth constituencies is respec­ to challenge your ruling, Mr President, but tively 330 megawatts, 411 megawatts, 328 I should like to say that I am trying to help megawatts, and 320 megawatts. On these the Minister and I am sure that-- figures alone--discounting consumer popu­ lation entirely-it is clear that the first con­ The PRESIDENT: Order! stituency is not entitled to more than one­ The Ron. J.D. KENNY: I am not going quarter of the total complement of the to challenge your ruling-- council. Even transferring Marrickville to The PRESIDENT: Order! The honourable the first constituency as proposed would member cannot interject: he has no right to probably do little more than balance the interject at all. The Minister is giving his consumption figures of the first and second 164 2610 Gas and Electricity [COUNCIL] (Sydney County Council) Bill constituencies and the reduced second con­ that loan money. At that time, therefore, stituency would still have a consumer popu­ it was not unreasonable that the municipal lation of approximately 66,000 in excess of council should have two representatives on the enlarged first constituency. the new county council. It was not un­ reasonable also that the municipalities on The Hon. C. A. F. CAHILL: How many the southern side of the harbour-the sec­ megawatts are there to a council? ond constituency-which would have had Th Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: This might a large consumer population should also interest the honourable member. The total have had two representatives and that the number of megawatts consumed in the four considerably fewer municipalities on the areas of the county district is 1,389. northern side of the harbour, the third constituency-including Mackerel Beach­ The Hon. R. R. DoWNING: For how should have had one. long? I have already mentioned that in 1949 The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: That is in an additional constituency, the fourth, was the 1964 year. As the honourable mem­ established and the membership of the ber would appreciate this would represent Sydney County Council was increased from approximately 340 megawatts to each the original five members to nine members county area and if county representation of which the city of Sydney, the first con­ was to be on the basis of two representa­ stituency, elected three. Again at this time tives from each area, then each representa­ the greater representation of the city of tive would be concerned with approxi­ Sydney was justified ; it was then respon­ mately 170 megawatts. A substantial change sible for the generation of electricity. But in the distribution of consumer population since this county council commenced opera­ such as has taken place in the Sydney tions, and since its reconstitution in 1949, county district would, in the case of an considerable changes have taken place in electricity county council constituted under the circumstances that existed at those the Local Government Act be a factor war­ periods. The moneys originally borrowed ranting a review by the Minister of the by the Municipal Council of Sydney have representation on the county council con­ been largely repaid. Most of the original cerned. Other factors which would be employees of the municipal council would considered would be those involving any have retired and the present staff of the other changes in circumstances which county council have been recruited and existed when the county council was trained by it. More important, from 1st originally constituted. In the case of the January, 19 52, that part of the electricity Sydney County Council material changes undertaking conducted by the Sydney in circumstances have occurred since the County Council which comprised the council was first constituted. generation of electricity and the supply of Before the enactment of the Gas and electricity in bulk, has been transferred to Electricity Act, 1935, the Municipal Coun­ the Electricity Commission of New South cil of Sydney had established a valuable Wales. electricity trading undertaking and it had Further local-government areas have extended its services to many surrounding been added to the county district and most municipalities. It had raised loans in con­ important there has been a more rapid siderable amounts for which it was liable. increase in the consumer population of those Municipal council employees staffed the local-government areas compnsmg the electricity undertaking. When, in 1935, the second, third and fourth constituencies, as Sydney County Council was constituted it compared with that of the city of Sydney took over the undertaking and the staff comprising the first constituancy. In spite of the municipal council. Though the of these important changes the council of municipal council still remained liable for the city of Sydney with a consumer popula­ repayment of the borrowed money, the new tion of 70,371 elects three members to the county council under the statute idemni­ county council and the other three constitu­ fied the municipal council in respect of encies, comprising twenty-four councils and Gas and Electricity [1 DEC., 1965] (Sydney County Council) Bill 2611 a combined consumer population of I am at a complete loss to understand 452,590, elect six members. It is considered why this bill should be introduced at this that the changes that I have mentioned time, but it seems significant that the other and the increase of consumer population local-government measure that was dealt outside the city of Sydney make it advan­ with by this Chamber recently and this one, tageous to effect the adjustments to the were not referred to in the recent election representation of the various constituencies campaign. Nothing of this description was on the Sydney County Council. The bill mentioned. This measure proposes to re­ is designed to do just that. duce the Sydney City Council's representa­ The proposal is that the ~umber of rep­ tion on the Sydney County Council from resentatives to be elected for the first con­ three to two members; to take Marrick­ stituency should be reduced from three to ville out of the second constituency and to two, making a total council membership of add it to the first constituency ; and with eight instead of nine. With a view to the addition of Marrickville, to reduce the equalizing to some extent the consumer representation of the first constituency from population of the respective constituencies three to two. I should have thought that it is further proposed to transfer the local­ the Minister would have informed the government area of Marrickville, which has House that this type of composition of a a consumer population of 24,383, from the county council that dealt with the distri­ second to the first constituency. In so alter­ bution of electricity was something unusual. ing the first constituency, the importance of I should have thought that the Minister the city of Sydney and the part played by would have made some reference to the it in past years in developing the trading fact that county councils generally were undertaking subsequently transferred to the organized according to some pattern, and Sydney County Council will still be recog­ that this amendment was being made in nized. It might be appropriate for me to conformity with some ordered basis. But mention in this connection that the city of no such reference was made, and no state­ Sydney and the municipality of Marrickville ment was put before the House to claim comprise the first of the five constituencies that the Government was attempting to do for election of members to the Metropolitan this. The true position is, of course, that Water Sewerage and Drainage Board. I the Sydney County Council is the only commend the bill to the House. electricity distributing authority that is con­ stituted under its own statute, the Gas and The Ron. R. R. DOWNING [9.29]: I Electricity Act. The other electricity county was interested in the long and accurate his­ councils throughout the State are formed torical account of the formation of the under the Local Government Act, and deal Sydney County Council given by the Minis­ with most important areas of distribution. ter but even listening attentively to his After the Sydney County Council, the Pros­ speech, I was unable to find the reason that pect County Council is the largest electricity this bill should be introduced at this time, distributing authority. It is followed by the having regard to the circumstances existing St George County Council. at the moment in relation to the Govern­ ment's attitude towards the city of Sydney Nine members is an unusually low num­ area. I was astounded by the failure of the ber on any local-government body, and it Minister to refer to the fact that at present has already been pointed out that only two the Minister for Local Government and of ninety-two municipalities and cities have Minister for Highways has ordered the fewer than nine members. Two hundred Boundaries Commission to inquire into and and seventy-eight municipalities and shires report upon the appropriateness of the have nine members. The Sydney County boundaries of the city of Sydney. No doubt Council area includes twenty-five local­ the inquiry will be conducted at some government areas, and at present they are length, but I understand from a press report represented by only nine members. The that the Minister's view is that the commis­ Government now proposes to reduce the sion will present a report within six months. number to eight. The Northern Rivers 2612 Gas and Electricity [COUNCIL] (Sydney County Council) Bill County Council, which has twelve mem­ The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: In the city bers, represents seventeen local-govern­ area? ment areas ; the North West County Coun­ cil has sixteen members and represents The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: No, over thirteen local-government areas. the nine members. Colonel the Hon. H. J. R. CLAYTON: The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: Yes, that is What are the comparative areas? right. The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: The St The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: They rep­ George County Council has an area that resent an average of 57,300 consumers. is smaller than the area covered by the The representative from the city council Sydney County Council ; it covers three would be fewer ; I believe 20,000 consumers local-government areas, but has twelve in the city is the average. The Minister gave members. It is not a question of large also details of consumption, with 300 mega­ areas. I am not conversant with the sizes, watts compared with the highest constitu­ but I have some doubt whether the Prospect ency-the second constituency-with 411 County Council covers a larger area than megawatts. The Prospect County Council, the Sydney County Council. The Shortland the next largest distributor of electricity, County Council, in the Newcastle district, has 7,800 consumers to each member, and embraces five local-government areas and the number of units sold total only 58 has thirteen members. megawatts. I understand, although I am no mathematician or engineer, that a mega­ If anything, I should have thought that watt is 1,000,000 watts. Compared with the appropriate way to tackle this legisla­ the Sydney County Council's 1,300 mega­ tion would be to base it on two considera­ watts, the Prospect County Council has only tions: first, to await the decision of the 58. The Shortland County Council, which Boundaries Commission, and to take into covers a fairly large area in the Newcastle account its recommendations on what district, has 6,800 consumers represented should be the area of the City of Sydney ; by each member, and in the whole area and, if anything, to increase the representa­ only 52 megawatts are sold. The St tion on the Sydney County Council. This George County Council has 517 consumers is a local-government body. We have heard for each member and 24 megawatts sold ; quite often of the necessity for local gov­ the Mackellar County Council has 8,780 ernment to be close to the people. Honour­ consumers to each member and sells 36 able members have heard the figures read megawatts ; the Illawarra County Council by the Minister, who mentioned the num­ has 6,805 consumers for each member and ber of consumer representatives per head sells 40 megawatts. of population in each of the constituencies. In one instance 186,000 consumers are re­ I readily conceded what appears to be an presented by two members. Electricity dis­ unexplainable variation in the numbers re­ tribution involves local issues, and not mat­ presented and the areas served in the vari­ ous county councils. The Minister for Local ters of national concern. It involves decid­ Government and Minister for Highways ing whether electricity lines should be put has been looking at the areas of these underground, whether mains should be county councils to see if some adjustment altered, what should be done in respect of should be made. The important Sydney breakdowns, and whether transformers are County Council, one constituent of which capable of carrying the load in a particular is the city of Sydney, was the original distri­ butor of electricity in the city and near area. metropolitan area. The Boundaries Com­ I believe the Minister said that the Syd­ mission is inquiring into the boundaries of ney County Council has about 57,300 con­ the city of Sydney. If they are reduced or sumers for each member on the council. enlarged within the next three months will That is a greater number than the con­ the Government have this bill amended ~tituents in a State electorate. again? Gas and Electricity [1 DEc., 1965] (Sydney County Council) Bill 2613

The truth of the matter is that as the The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: I was speaking Sydney County Council is elected at pre­ about the Sydney County Council. It is the sent it is a Labor county council and the only council dealt with by the bill. Talk Government wants to gerrymander these about gerrymandering! You did it for constituencies, without waiting for the re­ years. port of the Boundaries Commission, so that at the coming elections an anti-Labor The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: Mackellar majority can be obtained on the Sydney is not a Labor council so the Government County Council. will not touch it, but it will interfere with the Sydney County Council because in the On the Mackellar County Council there elections in a few days time it expects that are three representatives of Manly and three a Labor majority will be returned in the representatives for the whole of Warringah. constituent councils. The Minister might That is a greater disparity than in the Syd­ not like it, but he knows that it is the truth ney County Council, but the Government in that this bill is introduced on the eve of has picked out the Sydney County Council the elections when there is no reason other because it is a Labor council. The Govern­ than to gerrymander the electorates to pre­ ment is leaving alone the other county vent Labor from obtaining a majority on councils, despite the fact that the propor­ the Sydney County Council. Surely, with tion of representation in some of them is an inquiry into the boundaries of the city out of balance, and wants to go to the of Sydney about to conclude, the Govern­ Sydney County Council because it is con­ ment would not want to mess around with trolled by Labor. the constituencies as at present represented, but would logically wait until the Boun­ The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: You do not daries Commission has given a report on think there is an inequitable representation what the boundaries of the city of Sydney by the Sydney City Council? It is obvious should be and then act in accordance with that it is inequitable. the recommendations. The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: If that is I do not propose to labour the matter. I so, why is the Government not waiting until say what I think is the true reason for the the decision on what the boundaries of the Government introducing this bill-to try city of Sydney should be? by a juggling of these constituencies to prevent a Labor majority on the Sydney The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: Why did not County Council. This measure should be you remove the injustice? rejected and I move: The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: There is That the question be amended by the omis­ no injustice. All these county councils sion of the word "now", with a view to the addition at the end thereof, of the words "this have a historical background. In many of day six months". these county councils in the country the local body is generating the electricity. In The Hon. R. C. PACKER [9.47]: I am Goulburn the city council was distributing distressed to realize that the Leader of the the electricity and originally had a franchise Opposition in moving the amendment is into the surrounding country areas. Repre­ preparing once again to use his majority sentation has always been accorded to the in this House to thwart the Government original distributor of electricity. In the that has been elected by an overwhelm­ city of Sydney this is a strong factor be­ ing majority. However, perhaps I should cause the city was the first generating deal with some of the points raised before authority, it was the authority that set up the amendment was moved. the generation of electricity in the metro­ As I understand it, the Hon. R. R. politan area, borrowed the money for its Downing ·has three main objections to the operations, accepted the financial liability for the generation of electricity, and his­ bill. He said he could not understand why torically has every justification to have the the measure was introduced in such haste representation loaded for it. The Minister while a Boundaries Commission was exam­ has said nothing about Mackellar-- ining the areas of the city of Sydney. The 2614 Gas and Electricity [COUNCIL] (Sydney County Council) Bill Leader of the Opp0sition himself answered cede that this could be construed as a valid that question when he said there was an objection to the bill. I hope that the election due to be held in the Sydney Leader of the Opposition will not think I County Council, which I understand must am accusing him of being devious; I am be held within two months of the local­ not, but I am sure that, irrespective of the government elections next Saturday. The numbers involved, whether it was proposed new county council will hold office for a to increase the number of county council­ term of three years. The Government's lors from each constituency from two to view is that there is an inequality in the four, the Leader of the Opposition objects constituencies and if no action is taken to the principles behind the bill more than now this inequality will be continued for to the number of councillors involved. another three years. There is no mystery The Hon. C. A. F. CAHILL: It is the in the Government's motives for introduc­ absence of principle that he objects to. ing this measure before the Sydney County Council elections. Let us be quite honest The Hon. R. C. PACKER: That is the about that. honourable member's interpretation; cer· tainly it is not ours. A case can be made The Hon. R. R. DoWNING: The Min­ out to show that the responsibilities of a ister was not. county councillor in the metropolitan area The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES: The Hon. are in no way commensurate with those of R. R. Downing was completely untruthful. his counterpart in county areas, particu­ larly where the population is scattered, in The Hon. R. R. DoWNING: I am sorry, smaii hamlets and villages, where consid­ Mr President. What I mean is that the erable problems are involved. The Minister did not in my view tell the real county council area in Sydney is reason­ reason why this legislation has been intro­ ably compact and, by country standards, duced. fuiiy developed. The principle job of the county council in this area is administrative. The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES: I gave the It has a tremendously large administrative facts and I gave the consequences. staff compared with most small country The Hon. R. C. PACKER: The Hon. county councils. It has executive officers R. R. Downing's second point was that who are quite capable of doing many of the this county council should not be con­ jobs which in country areas are performed by county councillors themselves. As I sidered in isolation from all the other elec­ understand them, they are the three objec­ tricity undertakings in the State. I sup­ tions that the Hon. R. R. Downing has pose the short answer to that is that this raised to the bill. I suggest that none of bill deals only with the Sydney County them, on their own or taken collectively, Council and it is possible for the Minister justifies the Opposition's attempt to use its to amend the constituencies of other county majority in this House to prevent this new councils without legislation. If the Min­ legislation from operating at the election ister wishes to alter the areas in other that is due to take place within two months councils throughout the State, is not it of the local-government elections next necessary for him to come to this House. Saturday. As I understand it, there is a pro­ posal at the moment for the constituencies Perhaps I should give a few examples of to be readjusted in the north-coast county the change in population that justifies the council. I understand that the Minister in introduction of the measure. As so much another place said that that matter was at play has been made of the fact that the present under consideration and would not Sydney County Council is being con­ require legislation. sidered in isolation, perhaps I should give some details of the population The third point taken by the Leader of the Opposition was that there was in a country county council area, and its to be a reduction in the number of various constituencies. Illawarra County counci!Iors from nine to eight. I con- Council which was constituted on 20th Gas and Electricity [1 DEc., 1965] (Sydney County Council) Bill 2615

December, 1957, had seven council­ problems involved as previously. All hon­ lors, five of whom were elected by the city ourable members know that a considerable of Greater Wollongong and one each by amount of public debt incurred by the Kiama and Shellharbour municipalities. Sydney City Council was owing when the The population of Wollongong in 1958 was county council was established. Most of 112,000 people. In 1964 it had increased these responsibilities have been eliminated. to 145,000. In Kiama the population was Following the Royal commission into local­ 4,800 in 1958 and by 1964 it had increased government boundaries in the County of to 5,700. In Shellharbour the population Cumberland, the council was reconstituted in 1958 was 7,700, and by 1964 it had in­ in 1949 with three councillors from the creased to 18,470. That gives an idea of first constituency and two each from the the change in population between those western suburbs, the eastern suburbs and years in a typical country county council the North Shore. As the Minister has area. said, since then three other municipalities Considering the change in the composi­ have been included in the county council tion of the constituencies of the Sydney district, without any adjustment whatso­ county council over the same period, one ever. finds that in 1958 the first constituency, the The Ron. J. D. KENNY: Should we in­ city of Sydney, had a consumer popula­ crease the number or decrease it? tion of 67,000. In 1964, this had increased by 3,000. In the second constituency there The Ron. R. C. PACKER: We should were 168,000 consumers in 1958 and remove the imbalance that exists between 186,000 in 1964. In .the third constituency the city of Sydney and the suburban con­ there were 110,000 consumers in 1958 and stituencies. I do not want to detain the 130,000 in 1964. In the fourth consti­ House any longer. I merely repeat what tuency a similar situation is revealed: I said when I started: it is completely 112,000 consumers in 1958 and 137,000 in shameful that the Opposition should use its 1964. That is a total increase of 60,000 majority in this House to thwart majority consumers in six years, of which only 3,000 rule. I must say that honourable members are within the city of Sydney. Summariz­ opposite do not appear to be consistent. ing these statistics one finds that the city Only a short time ago they used their of Sydney with a consumer population of majority to thwart the amendments that 70,371 elects three councillors to the the Government sought to make to the county council, and the three other con­ Local Government Act. A few weeks ago stituencies with 452,000 consumers elect they said that the Government was trying only six councillors. to introduce a gerrymander and they used I do not think it is fair to say their majority to prevent the passage of a that the previous Labor Government bill. Here we have a bill which is con­ deliberately gerrymandered the county cerned to overcome what has now be­ councils. I think there were very come a blatant gerrymander in New good reasons for g!VIng the Sydney South Wales. It is a shocking gerry­ City Council extra representation on the mander that is completely and utterly county council when it was reconstituted in 1949. As the Minister has said, at that inexcusable in any sense of legislative prin­ time the council had wider responsibilities. ciples whatever. The Opposition is using There were all sorts of hangovers from the the last vestige of its power in this State, earlier days when staff was taken over its control of the Opposition benches in and it was first set up. Today, as this House, to prevent the passage of the the Minister pointed out, the functions bill. The last vestige of influence .that the of the Sydney County Council have Labor Party has left is its precarious ma­ become a good deal more adminis­ trative. Its job is to sell and reticulate jority in this Chamber, and it is using it to electricity and, to a certain extent, elec­ perpetuate its Tammany Hall rule of the trical appliances. There are not the same county council. 2616 Gas and Electricity [COUNCIL] (Sydney County Council) Bill The Hon. W. T. MURRAY [10.0]: The the generation and the main transmission Minister in another place in introducing this functions of the four principal authorities measure said that the object was to seek a and to build up the State's power resources remedy to some extent of a serious im­ on an integrated basis. The emergency in­ balance in the representation on the Sydney stallation of diesel plant, small steam power County COuncil. At the same time he said stations and the completion of stations then he had no complaint whatever against the under construction permitted the elimination administration or the efficiency of the of virtually all restrictions by the winter of Sydney County Council. When a bill 1953 and since that time adequate reserve is introduced in this House, especially one margins have been restored and maintained. dealing with local government, it has been The position at present is that through the a time-honoured custom for the Minister co-operation of the commission, the elec­ to confer with and seek the opinion of the tricity supply authority, the supply of power Local Government Association and the elec­ for this State is assured for at least the next tricity association. This bill deals with a five or six years without any further de­ very important local-government activity, velopment. Arising from the changes in but the Minister has not condescended to this period there has evolved the separation consult the Local Government Association of distribution and generation functions, or to consult the electricity association, which is the basis on which the industry which this bill vitally concerns. Who is res­ now operates. This was mentioned by the ponsible for the introduction of this bill? Minister in his speech. As at 30th June, No organization has requested it and no 1964, electricity in New South Wales was individual has requested it. It has mys­ supplied by fifty-one electricity supply teriously bobbed up here and I should like authorities, consisting of four city and muni­ to know who are the faceless people res­ cipal councils, two shire councils, thirty­ ponsible for wanting to interfere with this four county councils, seven franchise highly efficient organization. It is said that holders and operators, the Electricity Com­ this could be political. I warn the Govern­ mission, and three companies supplying ment that if this is political provocation, it electricity in bulk. is open to political retaliation, and that is Electricity undertakings vary in size from very bad for local government, especially local ·government dealing with the supply the Sydney County Council, which supplies of electricity in this State. over half a million consumers, to small sup­ pliers giving service in isolated rural com­ The electricity supply industry is a very munities. The greater resources of bigger highly developed technical industry and it bodies have made possible an improve­ is expanding at an enormous rate. Possibly ment in the quality and reliability of sup­ no other industry in the world is expanding ply, greater economies in operation, and more than the electricity industry in this sales promotional activities. Moreover, the country. It has been said that the extent more stable organizations are able to to which electricity is used is an index of a attract specialist staff, competent to give country's standard of living. I believe it is. attention to forward planning and to the An efficient and expanding electricity supply broader aspects of the public electricity is vital to the future development not only supply industry. of this State but indeed of the whole of the Commonwealth. New South Wales is the largest con­ sumer of electricity in Australia. In the Early in 1949 power shortages be­ year ended 30th June, 1964, the State con­ came extremely serious and in May sumed 9,622,314,000 kilowatt hours of of that year an emergency electricity electricity, more than 38 per cent of the commissioner was appointed with power to total Australian consumption for the same direct supply authorities to share the avail­ able electricity and to interrupt supply in period, namely 25,202,535,000 kilowatt any area as directed. Following this, the hours. Over the past decade electricity Electricity Commission of New South Wales consumption in New South Wales has in­ '

organizations responsible for the develop­ not think it has a lot to do with the Sydney ment of electricity in this State-the com­ County Council. The same area will be mission, the authority and the reticulating supplied with electricity by the same people. councils-we have been in the utmost It does not seem to me that there will be harmony. any difference if the boundaries of the city of Sydney are changed. I would like The Hon. H. D. AHERN [10.20]: I did to see a city of Sydney from Circular not realize that in this debate I would be Quay to the Railway and from Pyrmont preceding a past president of the Sydney to the Gardens. It might be a more repre­ County Council. In the circumstances, I sentative city from the viewpoint of world had better make sure that my remarks are standards. correct and up-to-date. It appeared to me that the Minister made a very good case I understand the Leader of the Opposi­ for a change in the constitution of the con­ tion using this argument. It sounds good, stituencies of the Sydney County Council but it means nothing. H is of no import­ and also in the member representation of ance what the boundaries are because the those constituencies. I believe that the area of supply will remain much the same. Leader of the Opposition set out to con­ I think the only change will be when some­ fuse the issue on this occasion. He has one amalgamates all these councils into done it admirably either deliberately or by one large supply authority for electricity, his complete lack of knowledge of the work­ to make sure that the people get the best ings of the Sydney County Council. I want and lowest rates. to make a reference to the Hon. W. T. The Hon. R. R. DowNING: You say that Murray, who talked about the faceless there should be one authority for the dis­ people. I thought he would talk about tribution of electricity? unidentified speech writers. That would have been nearer to the point. That speech The Hon. H. D. AHERN: I have always was written by someone other than the Hon. claimed that. You know that I would W. T. Murray. like to see two large generating authorities in this State with their own distribution. The Hon. R. R. DowNING: You could We would have a lower cost of electricity say that would be true about some of your and a measuring rod for costs. speeches. The Hon. R. R. DoWNING: And would The Hon. L. A. NoRTH: People in glass you have only two distributing authorities? houses should not throw stones. The Hon. H. D. AHERN: As things are The Hon. R. R. DowNING: You might in New South Wales I prefer one distribut­ dig into some of your speeches. ing authority, within reasonable technical The PRESIDENT: Order! limits. I can quote examples ; the Leader of the Opposition knows them-Victoria The Hon. H. D. AHERN: The Leader and Tasmania. My story does not change of the Opposition is concerned about the on these things ; it has been the same for accusation that the Sydney County Coun­ years. An objective study of the Sydney cil's policy is wrong, because that would County Council over its thirty years of mean that Labor's policy is wrong as well. operation-and I say this respectfully to I have witnessed its operations over the the Hon. W. T. Murray-indicates that ad­ years and I believe its policy is wrong to ministratively it has performed excel­ industry, and I believe industry agrees with lently. Forbes Mackay and John Nolan me on that. I shall have a little to say made it famous administratively. I shall about that later on. leave it to the Hon. J. H. Gardiner to make The Leader of the Opposition talked some comment on its policy, which I do about boundaries. It ill behoves me to speak on these aspects, for my leader can not think has been good over the period. do these things so much better. We all The Minister is trying to alter the machinery know this question is under review. I do that makes the policy. 2620 Gas and Electricity [COUNCIL] (Sydney County Council) Bill I shall take some minutes to talk about the different organizations. One is constituted Sydney County Council, and discussing a as a statutory corporation, with its own comparison with the various county councils. Act of Parliament. All the others are de­ I submit that there is no relationship between veloped under the Local Government Act. the Sydney County Council and the Prospect The Leader of the Opposition knows better County Council, the Warringah County than I do that if he looks up the Act setting Council or the Shortland County Council. up the Sydney County Council, he will find They are an entirely different type of a list of reserved functions for which the authority. council is responsible. The general manager is responsible for certain other functions. It The Hon. R. R. DoWNING: Would you is those particular factors that have made agree that there should be greater repre­ the Sydney County Council such a success­ sentation on the St George County Council ful administrative body. There is no doubt than on the Sydney County Council? about that. The Hon. H. D. AHERN: I am not It is unfair and unreal to compare. the willing to agree with the Leader of the Sydney County Council with these other Opposition that there is any reason to com­ organizations. I shall introduce a slightly pare the Sydney County Council with the different approach by presenting the case other county councils. The Hon. R. R. that this legislation in no way attempts to Downing gave the evidence himself interfere with the administration of the Syd­ when he pointed out that the Sydney ney County Council. The bill makes a County Council provides 1,328 megawatts. change in the constitution of the elected To give honourable members an idea of members of the council, who are responsible what that means, the total demand on the for policy. I am not going to try to answer electricity systems in New South Wales is this in detail, but there has been criticism in the vicinity of 2000 megawatts-about of the method of using the consumer popu­ that figure. That is at the maximum period, lation as the measuring rod for representa­ which is some day at the end of July. It tion. We are dealing with the policy of is a measure of demand, not of quantity. the Sydney County Council-that is, with the elected members. We are perfectly en­ The Hon. R. R. DowNING: At some titled to use consumer population as point of time. probably the most effective and democratic The Hon. H. D. AHERN: Yes. It is means of getting a measure of what repre­ generally in the last week in July or the first sentation we might have. I think the Hon. week in August. The demand for Prospect R. R. Downing went to a lot of trouble: County Council was given at 58 megawatts the Hon. W. T. Murray quoted a letter and for the Shortland County Council at from The Sydney Morning Herald, which 52 megawatts. I suggest with very great we all read with great interest. It was an respect to the Leader of the Opposition excellent letter, but it was irrelevant. that the Sydney County Council was created It talks about technical matters and back in 1935 to take care of these special not policy. It talks about kilowatt hours conditions. It is in no way related to the and maximum demand. Three terms were county councils entrusted with the supply used. They are the functions of the ad­ of electricity over large areas. I am not ministration of the Sydney County Council. wasting time by pointing out that they are Mr Washington looks after this today ex­ changing in that they are becoming fewer. cellently, and Mr Armstrong looks after the Someone mentioned earlier that we have policy. about one third the number compared with The success of the Sydney County Coun­ a few years ago. I predict that they cil has been largely due to the separation will become even fewer, and probably much of policy and administration ; that was laid like the Sydney County Council. I suggest down in the original Act. I believe one of that there is no case in comparing the Syd­ the responsibilities of the Sydney County ney County Council with the other county Council is the fixing of charges for elec­ councils around Sydney. They are entirely tricity. That is laid down in the Act. It is Gas and Electricity [1 DEc., 1965] (Sydney County Council) Bill 2621 at that point I believe we find a discrepancy to all customers, not one giving, as at pres­ or a departure in policy. The Sydney ent, a subsidy to the domestic customer. County Council is responsible for the fixing The changes in the bill could tend to cor­ of electricity rates, and it has shown a great rect the preference to one group of cus­ enthusiasm for domestic customers. There tomers and bring about a more equitable is no question of that. rate for all the customers of the Sydney County Council. I support the bill. The Ron. R. R. DoWNING: That is a very important matter. The Hon. J. H. GARDINER [10.33]: At this stage I do not wish to speak about The Ron. H. D. AHERN: Yes, they rep­ the critical timing of this bill or the future resent votes. That is the great trouble. boundaries of the Council of the City of That is why we will never get the best-- Sydney. Rather do I wish to speak on . the The Hon. R. R. DoWNING: The con­ role the Sydney County Council plays in sumer has to rear a family. the life of the community and on that part of the bill that refers to the membership The Hon. H. D. AHERN: The efficient of the Sydney City Council on the Sydney electricity organization will help rear a County Council compared with outside family by lower rates. I speak with some membership. I speak sincerely and from knowledge on that. The men responsible some little experience. I had the honour of for rate policy are largely elected by the being elected to the first Sydney County domestic consumers and industry has no Council, which at that time consisted of say. On other occasions I have pointed five members: Alderman the Hon. E. C. out that the domestic consumer in Sydney O'Dea, Alderman J. McElhone, Alderman , has been subsidized by industry in the J. 0. Cramer, Alderman S. A. Lloyd and vicinity of £1,000,000 to £1,250,000 a year. myself. In its initial stages the Sydney The Sydney County Council has admitted County Council went through a difficult this in a recent rate alteration that recog­ period, but ultimately settled down and did nises a discrepancy against industry. For a good job. It has continued to do a good the first time in many years the council job. has introduced a rate favourable to industry. Another matter, which has not yet received The Hon. J. D. KENNY: In what year much publicity, is the preferential treat­ was that? ment for the all-electric home where under­ . The Ron. J. H. GARDINER: That ground service has been provided. I am would be about 1935. The first chairman all in favour of underground mains ; they of the Sydney County Council was Alder­ are desirable and essential. However, I man S. A. Lloyd, M.L.A. for Concord at cannot agree that the all-electric home that time. Alderman Lloyd was elected customer should get a 50 per cent reduc­ by three votes to two, which represented a tion in the cost of this service. That con­ majority of three suburban representatives cession has to be met •by other customers, to two Sydney City Council representatives. particularly by industry. The representation at that time was two My point is that we are concerned funda­ members from the Sydney City Council, mentally with council policy, which has two members from the whole of the south not been so good, because it has given pref­ side of the harbour and one member from erence to the domestic customer at the the north side of the harbour. That system expense of industry. The theoretical ulti­ prevailed for some time. In conjunction mate in rate-setting is that every type of with two of my colleagues I approached the cus·tomer, the domestic customer and the Hon. Eric Spooner, when he was Minister large industrial customer, should bear a for Local Government, to put a case that fair share of the cost. Although such an the representation of the Sydney City arrangement cannot be accurately worked out in detail, an attempt should be made to Council on the Sydney County Council was achieve It as nearly as possible. The in too great proportion. On the first oc­ objective should be a rate that is equitable casion I was accompanied by Alderman 2622 Gas and Electricity [COUNCIL] (Sydney County Council) Bill

Cramer and Alderman Lloyd, and subse­ County Council has always been more than quently by Alderman Cramer and Alder­ it was entitled to, and that persists today. man Parry. The Minister promised to Honourable members should bear in mind consider the matter. It was emphasised to that in years gone by the Sydney County him that the outside suburban areas pro­ Council was responsible for generation as vided a scope for great industrial use of well as reticulation of electricity. It was electricity, as well as for an increase in wrong that generation and reticulation residential areas with all-electric homes. should be separated; from a reticulation The Minister was impressed by the argu­ point of view the county council could ment but, as a good politician, preferred to have been enlarged to cover a larger area. let sleeping dogs lie. The representation The division of generation and reticulation of three members from outside the city is not a good thing in the long run for council area and two members from the either local government or the people. I Sydney City Council persisted for some join with the Ron. W. T. Murray in paying time. a sincere compliment to the administrative It is a fact that the method of determin­ officers of the Sydney County Council dur­ ing a rate for shopkeepers, large industrial ing the whole period of its existence, but I undertakings, small factories and homes is emphasize that their method of calculating artificially decided by the administration charges according to particular types of use of the Sydney County Council. No matter bears review. A special body should be what side a person was on, he could find established to handle and control this aspect. arguments to support him. Electricity is a For instance who would deny that the cost difficult commodity on which to decide a of street lighting that is used in off-peak rate. Unlike gas, electricity cannot be periods should be charged for at a low rate? stored, but must be used as it is generated. Whether a householder with an all-electric That means that a peak plant must be home should be given a discount, or available for the coldest day of the year, whether a person who has a gas range and when also there might be great industrial uses electricity for heating and lighting should be charged a different rate is all a activity, and that plant has, to some ex­ question of accounting. However, provided tent, to lie idle for the rest of the year. the Sydney County Council gives the maxi­ I hope I will be permitted to relate with mum service at the lowest cost to its con­ due modesty a statement by the late Mr sumers, it is doing its job. Forbes Mackay, who said that the Sydney I emphasize again that the Sydney County County Council had functioned in his life­ Council should concentrate particularly on time at its maximum efficiency during my and receive an additional number of coun­ period of chairmanship. At that time Mr cillors from the outer industrial and residen­ Forbes Mackay was about forty years older tial areas. That is where its future lies, not than myself, so I think that was a won­ in David Jones's store or Farmer's em­ derful compliment to a young man from porium. It is my considered opinion that an older man. the Sydney County Council functioned more The Hon. J. D. KENNY: And I must say smoothly and better with five members than that the unions endorsed it. it has ever done with nine. I say that with all due respect to the Ron. W. T. Murray, The Hon. J. H. GARDINER: Thank you who was elected to the Sydney County very much. It is rarely that I get such Council when it had a membership of compliments. about seven delegates. The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: The honour­ The Ron. W. T. MURRAY: It was only a able member should not support the Ron. quarter the size that it is today. J. D: Kenny in consequence of that com­ pliment. The Hon. J. H. GARDINER: Irrespec­ The Hon. J. H. GARDINER: I will tive of that, I fail to be convinced that it is support what I believe, which is that the in the interests of large growing firms, city council's representation on the Sydney whether it is Broken Hill Proprietary Gas and Electricity [1 DEc., 1965] (Sydney County Council) Bill 2623

Limited which has a record of efficiency in The Hon. Sir Edward Warren knows more its particular sphere that would be difficult about power than the old fellows knew in to beat, or any other large firm, that the days gone by. Honourable members can de­ number of directors should increase when scribe their experiences and impart their turnover becomes bigger. Ordinary business knowledge, but the Minister has presented common sense suggests to me that a com­ to the House a lot of humbug. It means pact body of representatives can work nothing at all. The Hon. Sir Edward War­ smoothly and do their job properly. I pay ren could tell us in about five minutes what a compliment to the members of the Sydney the future holds in the production and dis­ County Council who have displayed great tribution of power, and we would not have aptitude for their work and have achieved any worries about whether three, five, nine, a success for which the public of this State or eleven people control the county council. should be truly grateful. The Hon. H. D. AHERN: Private enter­ The Hon. J. D. KENNY [10.46]: I do prise should be doing it. not intend to delay the House. I am op­ posed to the bill. The measure seeks to The Hon. J. D. KENNY: The Hon. H. D. change the representation on the Sydney Ahern interjects and introduces the old cry County Council. I emphasize that, whether of private enterprise. You, Mr President, the Minister in charge of the bill believes in your capacity as President and in your it or not, I hope that I can give him some previous capacity during World War II assistance. This is a house of review. It is recall the danger with which this country a Chamber in which, astoundingly, the was faced. You will recall, too, that the Labor Party gives no directions to its rep­ Labor Government which was in office resentatives. In another place when deci­ found that it had to take extraordinary mea­ sions are made members of the Australian sures to overcome the shortage of power. Labor Party adhere to them and vote ac­ Can the Hon. H. D. Ahern or can the cordingly. But in this Chamber since 1948 Minister recall what happened in those I have been told that I have the right to days? The Premier authorized the Hon. discuss legislation, to follow Labor prin­ J. J. Cahill, the Minister for Public Works, ciples and to vote accordingly. to set up an emergency committee, to which distinguished business men were appointed. The Hon. A. D. Bridges has presented I say with humility that I was appointed to to the House on behalf of the Government this committee, too. What flowed from it a bill which, to reduce it to the narrower was not private enterprise but a recommen­ sense, is a gerrymander. This will not do dation from these important representatives the Government any good. It is patently of private enterprise for the establishment incorrect because it seeks to do something of the Electricity Commission of New that will not benefit the State of New South South Wales. Mr Conde, who was a repre­ Wales. The measure proposes to alter the sentative of private enterprise on the com­ number of people who hold certain posi­ mittee, was first chairman of the Electricity tions, but the Minister surely knows that Commission. His appointment was eulo­ it will not make one iota of difference to gised 'by every section of the community the generation of electricity. and he reversed the dreadful situation, we The Hon. H. D. Ahern, who is an ex­ were able to get rid of our electricity pert in this field, has presented his view­ shortages and industry was able to carry points. I was interested to hear the re­ on. This bill proposes to change the repre­ marks made by my colleague the Hon. sentation. W. T. Murray, who was for many years In common with the Hon. R. R. Down­ chairman of the county council and gave ing, I :believe that it is not designed to assist distinguished service to it. I would have the State to generate more electricity. The been disappointed had the Hon. J. H. Gar­ Ron. Sir Edward Warren could give us diner not entered this debate, because I recall the distinguished service that he gave the latest information, gleaned from the to this State as chairman of the county world power conferences over which he council. Let us look round ~his Chamber. has had the honour to preside. He could 2624 Gas and Electricity [COUNCIL] (Sydney County Council) Bill produce information that doubtless would the aldermen in the area, for the election materially assist in solving some of the of the new Sydney County Council. This problems of the future. This legislation being so, it is imperative that, if there is is phoney and should not be supported. I to be a change, the change should be made hope the Minister will realize that the forthwith. trade-union movement can accept only legis­ It has been suggested by the terms of lation that is presented in a genuine way. the amendment moved by the Ron. R. R. Supporters of the Government should not Downing that this bill be postponed for accept the theory that all opposition is consideration in another six months. Such communist inspired. Please remember that a postponement would inevitably have the the trade-union movement is primarily out effect of perpetuating the present strength to assist. If we create a chaotic situation, of the Sydney County Council and the we shall destroy the standard of living of manner in which that council is to be the workers of this State. We want to elected. The Government believes that such .assist the Government to ensure that we a perpetuation is a rank injustice. I do not have continuity of employment, increased wish to use harsh terms but honourable productivity and a fair distribution of members should look fairly and squarely at wealth. The Government has an oppor­ the facts. No question can be raised of a tunity to assist the whole of the people, gerrymander by this bill. The sole purpose but it will not do so if it is cheap and of the alteration in the number of persons endeavours to gerrymander an election to be elected for the various constituencies simply because it believes that Labor is no1 is to provide them as far as practicable with doing a good job in the field. For these equitable representation. I intimated earlier reasons, I oppose the legislation. that the four constituencies contained a The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister for total of 523,000 consumers as at 30th June, Child Welfare, Minister for Social Welfare, 1964. Advisory Minister for Transport and Vice­ The Hon. J. D. KENNY: I hesitate to President of the Executive Council) [10.57], interrupt you-- in reply: In the spirit of the words of the Hon. J. D. Kenny I submit my reply in The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: Mr Pre­ the hope that it will be regarded as help­ sident, I wish the honourable member ful, that it will be understood and that I can would not. convert the Hon. J. D. Kenny and others to the· thoughts that I shall express. This The Ron. J. D. KENNY: I do not want is not a bill designed to gerrymander. It to interrupt you. is not a bill to provide for any inequitable The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: Mr Presi­ treatment of the Sydney County Council. dent, I should prefer the Hon. J. D. Kenny It is a bill designed to provide a measure not to help me. If that total of 523,000 of justice to consumers in the area covered of consumer population is to be divided by the Sydney County Council, a measure among the eight representatives to be of justice which has been denied to them elected to the Sydney County Council, each over a long period. of the representatives, if elected on an equal The only reason for the introduction of basis, would represent approximately the measure at this stage and for the fact 65,000 consumers. Applying that rule to that no reference to other county councils each of the constituencies would mean that is made is that the Sydney County Council the first constituency-the city council of operates as a statutory corporation, under Sydney-would have only one representa­ the Gas and Electricity Act and that next tive. It has now a consumer population of Saturday there will be an election for the only 70,000. The second constituency, con­ Council of the City of Sydney, as well as in sisting of the western area, would have all of the municipalities covered by the other three representatives. The third constituency three constituencies. Within two months of would have two and the fourth constituency that election a poll must of necessity be would have one. That accounts for the taken among the qualified persons, namely, eight. It is not suggested by the bill that Gas and Electricity [1 DEc., 1965] (Sydney County Council) Bill 2625 the divisions could be determined solely on the honourable member-and I am sure he the basis of consumer population. Apply­ would agree-I point out that it does not ing the test of megawatt consumption, I necessarily follow that a large committee, point out that a total of 1,389 megawatts council, executive or board of directors is would give a figure of 170 megawatts to necessarily more efficient than a smaller, each representative, which would result in compact body. The Sydney County Coun­ two representatives for each of the consti­ cil has in fact been highly efficient with a tuencies. membership ranging from five to nine. I The Hon. J. D. KENNY: Who produces do not think it could be any more efficient if its membership were increased to twelve, the megawatts? fifteen or some other figure. The Gov­ The PRESIDENT: Order! ernment has come to the conclusion that the council could be undoubtedly effective The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: The Hon. with a membership of eight discharging the J. D. Kenny knows fuli well that the Syd­ responsibilities and duties of reticulating ney County Council is engaged in the reti­ electricity to a fast-growing area with culation of electricity. Let that be recog­ consumption increasing at an even greater nized. We are concerned with consumers­ rate in the outlying suburbs. not producers, who are covered by another authority. I do not propose to deal with The belief is well founded that the elec­ the historical background of the Sydney tion by a just and proper franchise of a County Council ; I have already dealt suffi­ new council will provide consumers with ciently with that aspect. I am dealing now an opportunity through their aldermanic with the existing situation. To bring the representatives to elect to the Sydney problem down to absurdity I emphasize County Council persons who will do an that the area covered by the Sydney City even better job than their predecessors. I Council has shown an increase in popula­ have not the slightest doubt-and this is tion of 4.4 per cent over a period of six said without any disparagement of those years, whereas in the other three constitu­ who have gone before-that those who rep­ encies the increase has ranged between resent this immense, rapidly-growing area 20 and 21 per cent. If that tendency con­ in which outlying districts such as Banks­ tinues-and inevitably it will-in the course town are included, must have their ear of time the other three constituencies will have a population many times larger than to the ground and have an appreciation of in the city of Sydney. When wiii there be local conditions. They must have means a change in the representation from these of judging what ought to be done in those various constituencies? I suggest that areas to an infinitely better degree than surely this is the time. We have a new the unbalanced representation coming from government seeking to give effect to the the city area. wishes of a majority of people and con­ cerned with the nature and equity of repre­ The Hon. J. D. KENNY: The Minister sentation. Here is a means of giving equity should not forget there are workers in the of representation, not an excess of repre­ industry. sentation to some sections and an insuffi­ ency to others. The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: The Sydney This is all that the biii aims to do-so County Council is sustained by funds com­ to reconstitute the Sydney County Council ing from the rates paid by consumers. as to give an equitable representation to all Statutory powers are given to general these four constituencies. The Hon. R. R. managers, as the Hon. J. D. Kenny knows, Downing raised one argument with possibly and to the chairman and members of that even more fervour when he dealt with the council. The workers are protected. There question of how constituencies should be represented on this council. He said that is no question about that. Are the con­ all other county councils had a greater num­ sumers protected? That is the question ber of representatives. With all respect to that we have to determine. I suggest that 165 2626 Gas and Electricity [COUNCIL] (Sydney County Council) Bill the consumers could be best protected if Question-That the word proposed to be they received representation on this body omitted stand-put. proportionate to their numbers. The only The House divided.

other matter that I had to reply to was AYES, 27 raised by-- Mr Ahern Mr Joel Mr Bridges MrKeighley The Hon. J. D. KENNY: But the con­ MrBudd Mr J. L. Kenny sumers are the workers. Mr C. J. Cahill Mr Mcintosh Mr Carter Mr Packer The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: I am a Colonel Oayton Mr Paterson Brigadier Eskell Mrs Press worker. MrFalkiner MrShipton Major FitzSimons Mr Sommerlad The Hon. J. D. KENNY: I hope so. Mr Fuller Mr Spicer Mrs Furley Sir Edward Warren The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: I certainly MrGardiner Tellers, am. The consumers are undoubtedly the MrGleeson Mr Armstrong workers, but the Hon. J. D. Kenny is obvi­ MrHewitt Dr Bryon-Faes ously referring to those employed by the NOES, 28 Sydney County Council. MrAlam Mr McPherson Mrs Barron Mr Maloney Mr J. E. Cahill Mr Marsh The Hon. J. D. KENNY: No. Mr Cockerill Mr Murray MrColborne MrO'Dea The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: I say that Mr Coulter Mr Peters they are in fact being protected at this time Mr Dalton Mrs Roper MrDay Mrs Rygate by the council, which is elected partly for MrDowning Mr Sutherland that purpose. They will continue to be Mr Erskine MrWeir MrFord MrWright protected by any councils that follow. I Mr Geraghty listened with interest to the remarks of the Mr Jackson Tellers, Hon. W. T. Murray and the Hon. J. H. Mr J.D. Kenny Mr C. A. F. Cahill MrLove Mr North Gardiner, both of whom have had real, Question so resolved in the negative. practical experience in this organization. I was rather surprised by the Hon. W. T. Question-That the words proposed to be Murray's remark about retaliation and I added be so added-put. hope that he is not suggesting that, if this The House divided. bill goes through in its present form, there AYES, 28 will necessarily be retaliatory action taken MrAlam MrMaloney Mrs Barron Mr Marsh by any body of persons. Mr C. A. F. Cahill MrMurray Mr J. E. Cahill MrNorth The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: He said that Mr Coulter MrO'Dea it lent itself to it. Mr Dalton Mr Peters MrDay Mrs Roper The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: I cannot see MrDowning Mrs Rygate MrErskine Mr Sutherland how it can. If the consumers are not pre­ MrFord MrWeir judiced by this legislation-and I cannot see Mr Geraghty MrWright Mr Jackson how they can be-why should there be any Mr J.D. Kenny Tellers, retaliation? It is all a matter of interpre­ MrLove Mr Cockerill Mr McPherson MrColborne tation. The Hon. R. R. Downing chooses to look at this from a political partisan NOES, 27 Mr Armstrong Brigadier Eskell viewpoint: I prefer to look at it from the MrBridges MrFalkiner point of view of common justice. If com­ Dr Bryon-Faes Major Fitzsimons mon justice is to prevail this bill should MrBudd Mr Fuller Mr Carter Mrs Furley be approved. Colonel Clayton MrGardiner Coal Mine Workers [1 DEC., 1965] (Superannuation) Bill 2627 Mr Gleeson Mrs Press and Oil Shale Mine Workers Superannua­ Mr Hewitt Mr Shipton tion Fund. Out of this fund are paid all Mr Joel Mr Sommerlad Mr Keighley Mr Spicer pensions payable to mine workers who were Mr J. L. Kenny Sir Edward Warren employed in the coal and oil shale mining Mr Mcintosh Tellers, industry. The fund is administered by the Mr Packer Mr Ahern Coal and Oil Shale Mine Workers' Super­ Mr Paterson Mr C. J. Cahill annuation Tribunal which makes an annual Question so resolved in the affirmative. estimate of the amount required by the Question-That this bill be read a second fund as it is required to do by section 19n time this day six months-put. of the Act. The tribunal approved of an The House divided: estimate of £2,331,402 as being required by the fund for the financial year commenc­ AYES, 28 ing 1st July, 1965. This estimated expen­ MrAlam MrLove diture was made up of £2,053,366 for Mrs Barron Mr McPherson pensions on present costs, £92,000 for ad­ Mr C. A. F. Cahill Mr Maloney Mr J. E. Cahill Mr North ministration and contingencies and £186,036 Mr Cockerill MrO'Dea for reserve. MrColborne Mr Peters Mr Coulter Mrs Roper The estimated income amounted to MrDalton Mrs Rygate £2,109,875, made up of owners' and em­ MrDay Mr Sutherland ployees' contributions of £1,744,875, in­ MrDowning MrWeir terest from investments of £285,000 and the MrErskine MrWright MrFord government subsidy as is at present provided MrGeraghty Tellers, for by the Act of £80,000. It will be seen Mr Jackson Mr Marsh that for the 1965-66 financial year there Mr J. D. Kenny Mr Murray would have been a deficiency of £221,527. NoEs, 27 Subsection (3A) of section 19 of the Act MrAhern MrGleeson provides that either one-fourth of the Mr Armstrong MrHewitt Mr Bridges Mr Joel amount estimated by the tribunal or the Dr Bryon-Faes MrKeighley sum of £80,000, whichever is the lesser, Mr Budd Mr J. L. Kenny shall be paid by the Government to the Mr C. J. Cahill Mr Packer tribunal. As one-fourth of the estimated Mr Carter Mr Paterson Colonel Clayton Mrs Press annual expenditure has exceeded £80,000, Brigadier Eskell Mr Shipton this has been the amount paid by the Gov­ Mr Falkiner Mr Spicer ernment each year. The balance of the Major FitzSimons Sir Edward Warren amount of the estimated annual expenditure Mr Fuller Tellers, Mrs Furley Mr Mcintosh must be provided by the mine workers in MrGardiner Mr Sommer lad two-eleventh parts and the owners in nine­ Question so resolved in the affirmative. eleventh parts. For the present financial year mine workers are required to con­ tribute lls. a week, and the owners are re­ COAL AND OIL SHALE MINE WORKERS quired to contribute £2 9s. 6d. a week, for (SUPERANNUATION) AMENDMENT each mine worker employed. BILL The approved estimate of expenditure SECOND READING from the fund for 1965-66 would have been The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister for insufficient to pay pensions and other statu­ Child Welfare, Minister for Social Welfare, tory charges unless a sum of £221,527 over Advisory Minister for Transport and Vice­ and above estimated income-based on cur­ President of the Executive Council) rent contribution rates-could be found. [11.34]:! move: On no occasion since the scheme was intro­ duced in 1941 has the Government raised That this bill be now read a second time. its own rate of contribution, namely Section 18 of the Coal and Oil Shale Mine £80,000. It has been necessary to increase Workers (Superannuation) Act, 1941, as rates of contribution by the mine workers amended, set up a fund known as the Coal and the owners and also pension rates on 2628 Coal Mine Workers [COUNCIL] (Superannuation) Bill numerous occasions. To avoid the neces­ are subject to violent periodical increases sity for increasing mine worker's and bearing no relationship to ages of contribu­ owner's contributions to 12s. 6d. and tors or their periods of service, is a most £2 16s. 3d. respectively for the current year unusual procedure and the results are at the Government decided to make a special best only a poor gauge of the ultimate posi­ supplementary payment to the fund of tion. £80,000 for the 1965-66 financial year. This By a process of further increasing contn­ will mean that the deficiency will be met butions the position may eventually be by the Government, the mine workers and reached whereby sufficient reserves are on the owners. It will mean that the rate of hand to meet the estimated liability both contribution for the employees during the present and future of the current and pros­ current financial year will rise from lls. to pective pension entitlements. This position lls. 7d. a week and for the owner from obviously has not yet been attained. The £2 9s. 6d. to £2 12s. ltd. for each mine Government Actuary stated that in the very worker employed. near future he would commence to make I might add that the Government has an assessment of the position of the fund made this special supplementary payment at 30th June, 1965. He said that although on the basis that the whole position of the it would not be possible to forecast the out­ scheme will be examined in the light of the come of that assessment the indications actuarial report of the fund at 30th June, were: 1962, which was recently tabled in this ( 1) That the number of contributors had House. In his report the Government not fallen since 1962 at as high a rate as hitherto but contribution rates have been in­ Actuary stressed that the scheme as creased by 22 per cent and the net effect originally designed did not commence on an should be to eliminate the net liability of the actuarial basis. It was designed to defer superannuation fund in respect of workers at emerging costs which would be met, as valuation date of £1.3 millions shown in 1962. they arose, by a charge both directly and (2) The number of pensioners has shown a indirectly on the coal industry. The actuary further increase and there is no indication that this trend will not continue for some time. stated that there had been very little change Coupled with further increases in pension from the original concept, except that there rates with every rise in the rates of social ser­ have been numerous increases in the rates vices payments, the net liability for pen­ of benefits payable from the funds and in sioners must show further increases and it the rates of contributions payable by both seems that the best that could be hoped for as at June, 1965, will be some further re­ the employees and the employers in the duction in the capital deficiency from £7.5 coal-mining industry. millions. In the period between June, 1959, and The actuary said that though the coal-min­ June, 1962, the rate of contributions per ing industry continues to be able to afford a employee was increased by 12t per cent and surcharge in the form of employers' con­ the basic pension was increased from £5 lOs. tributions of the nature of £1,500,000 annu­ a week to £6 7s. 6d. a week. The increase ally it would seem that those on pension in the rate of contributions was not fully will continue to receive the statutory benefit reflected in the income received as the but it is doubtful if v. ithin a reasonable number of contributors-according to the time the reserves in hand would be deemed Auditor-General's reports-fell from 13,677 to be sufficient to meet all the estimated lia­ to 11,986, that is, by approximately 12!­ bility in respect of pensions, without having per cent. The number of pensioners, how­ recourse to assistance from moneys being ever, increased from 8,203 to 8,642 and this paid in by contributors. This continued to in turn further affected the expenditure as bear out the previously expressed conclusion the average net pension payable also showed that the payment of pensions both in respect some increases. The Government Actuary of existing pensioners and those to emerge referred to his previous report in which he in the future must depend on the continued said that actuarial valuation of a fund of prosperity of the coal industry at a rela­ this nature, in which there is no fixed basis tively high level. I turn now to the provi­ for benefits and where contribution rate~ sions of this very short bill, the purpose The Hon. A. D. Bridges] Coal Mine Workers [1 DEC., 1965] (Superannuation) Bill 2629

of which is to validate the Government's £2 for each retired miner and £1 for his special supplementary payment to the fund wife. World War II was in progress at the of £80,000 for the 1965-66 financial year. time and the compulsory provisions were Clause (2) of the bill amends section 19 suspended, retirement being optional. When of the Coal and Oil Shale Mine Workers the war ended, the compulsory provisions (Superannuation) Act, 1941, so that the of the pensions fund were applied. When Government's present contribution to the the pensions fund first came into opera­ fund of £80,000 is increased to £160,000 tion the miners paid into the pension fund for the financial year commencing on 1st 2s. 6d. a week and the mine owners paid July, 1965. I have pleasure in commending an excise or a levy of 5d. on each ton of this bill for favourable consideration by coal. This continued and the Government honourable members. was to contribute £80,000, or a quarter of the requirements of the fund at the time, The Hon. F. H. COCKERILL [11.45]: whichever was the lesser, and £80,000 be­ Due to the lateness of the hour I shall cur­ ing the lesser, the Government paid that tail some of the remarks I had intended sum. This rate continued until 1944. making. Miners' pensions came into effect In 1945 the pensions tribunal sought to during the term of office of the Mair Gov­ increase contributions to the fund. It en­ ernment, an anti-Labor government, follow­ deavoured to raise the miners' contribution ing two very bitter strikes in the coal-min­ to 3s. 6d. a week and the owners' to 7d. ing industry. The miners claimed pensions a ton excise. When this was done a mine­ in addition to a number of industrial claims owners' association-not the one with that they were making at the time. At the which the Hon. Sir Edward Warren is asso­ conclusion of the strikes a commission was ciated-! think it was the Northern Colliery set up to investigate the possibility of pay­ Proprietors Association-- ing miners' pensions in terms of the claim lodged, that is, at the rate of £2 a week The Hon. SIR EDWARD WARREN: It was for retired miners. At the time this com­ Northern Collieries Limited. There was a mission was established the industry was Northern Collieries Proprietors Association going through what might be considered to of which I was chairman. be one of its common periods of slackness, The Hon. F. H. COCKERILL: It was and unemployment was fairly widespread. Northern Collieries Limited. Mr Gregory Many men of extreme age were in the in­ Foster, who was secretary at the time, chal­ dustry and, contradictory though it may lenged the authority of the tribunal to im­ seem, many young men were being paid off pose the 7d. a ton excise. It was held to when they reached 21. As a result of this be invalid which meant that another means the miners set about getting some answer to of financing the fund had to be found. Then the problem by the establishment of a pen­ began a period of gradual increases and sion fund. Judge Drake-Brockman, who changes in rates paid. When that became was at that time dealing with mining prob­ ineffective it was agreed that the miners lems, had this to say: should pay 3s. 6d. and the mine owners In Australia wages have remained 'fairly two and a half times what the miners sub­ constant for some time. Unemployment of scribed. That went on until 1947 when it mine workers during the last seven years on was again altered. The miners paid 4s. and uneconomic working of the mines here has produced a number of unemployed persons the owners' contribution was raised to 3t which I fear must now be regarded as per­ times the miners' contribution. In 1950 manent. the miners paid 4s. 6d. and owners con­ Of course, a lot of things happened that tinued at 3t times the miners' rate. In neither the learned judge nor anyone else 1952 it was raised again. The miners then could foresee. I refer to future develop­ paid 5s. and the owners 4t times that con­ ments in the industry. I have given the tribution. background to the agitation by the miners for a pension fund. In January, 1942, the The Hon. R. C. PACKER: Is that 4t times miners' pensions were paid at the rate of the 5s.? 2630 Coal Mine Workers [COUNCIL] (Superannuation) Bill The Ron. F. H. COCKERILL: Yes. The Ron. R. C. PACKER: What would the In 1957, the miners' contribution rose to honourable member prefer? 8s. and the owners continued to pay 4t times 8s. That ratio has continued until The Ron. F. H. COCKERILL: The today when the miners are paying 11s. 7d. Ron. R. C. Packer should be patient. I say and the owners 4-t times that figure. That that the principle is wrong. If the principle is the history of the contributing side of the is correct the Government should subsidize fund but I have omitted one or two in­ many other private funds. It has never creases in the intervening years. been right that the Government should sub­ sidize only one fund. The miners have al­ In 1952 the industry employed 20,310 ways considered that this should be a non­ persons who produced 15,022,000 tons contributory scheme, paid for by the which gave a production figure of 3.04 owners. tons a man-shift. In 1956 the figure of 20,310 had fallen to 11,672 but produc­ The Ron. R. C. PACKER: The miners tion had risen to 19,030,000 tons. Output could not get that out of the Labor Govern­ a man-shift had grown from 3.40 tons to ment. 6.89 tons. Therefore the figure of 4t times the contribution of the mine worker The Ron. F. H. COCKERILL: That must be related to the reduction in man­ does not affect the principle at all. I might power and the increased productivity as a agree that we did not get it from the Labor result of mechanization. That rise con­ Government but the interjection is not tinued until last year when the figure was worthy of comment. It does not affect the 8.11 tons with employees still about the principle. The miners believe that this 11,500 mark. should have been a non-contributory scheme but they could not get it. I do not Much has been said about the actuarial believe that anyone agrees that the Gov­ side of the miners' fund and it is well to ernment should subsidize private pension consider that the actuarial basis of the fund funds. I doubt whether even the Hon. took into account the wholesale closing of R. C. Packer agrees with that ; he has not collieries or a calamity of that kind, which yet said that he does. If he agrees with despite the cavelling out, has not happened ; the principle, then surely many other funds it might be expected never to happen. In should be subsidized. The principle origin­ 1944, the fund finished with an actuarial any contained in the legislation is the one drain estimated to be £10,700,000. In that should have been applied. An excise 1947, the figure was £9,700,000 and in should have been imposed on coal. 1959 it had fallen to £8,200,000. In 1962 it was £7,500,000. Honourable members In some instances excises are collected have heard the Minister say that it is ex­ by agreement, such as with the finance pected that the drain on the fund will be for mine rescue stations. Of course, that reduced. It must be agreed that actuarially money is provided in the interests of the the fund has improved but the possibility is collieries, although I admit it does involve still there that the fund could deteriorate protection of the life and limb of the at some future time. It is this that has led miners. I believe that some form of excise to the introduction of the bill. should be paid to meet the cost of -this fund. In Tasmania the owners have agreed ; I do not agree with the principles set the scheme there is financed by a levy on out in the measure and I am astonished coal. Of course, it is contributory, but that anyone should agree with it. The Min­ the principle applies. The miners are not ister in another place asked who would be divorced from it entirely, for they pay their game to go into the mining electorates and share. say that he did not agree. I am one who will go with the Minister to any electorate With the increases and benefits given to that he nominates. I am confident that owners, they could have afforded to meet when we leave the electorate I shaH have this payment. The Government should have the support of the miners for my point of continued with the policy that was being view. put into effect by the previous Government, I Coal Mine Workers [1 DEc., 1965) (Superannuation) Bill 2631 which discussed the matter with the Min­ £80,000 as a sort of stop-gap while the isters for Mines from Queensland, Tas­ Government is considering some other mania, Victoria and Western Australia. scheme. Agreement was reached between the Min­ isters that there were reasonable grounds We have been unable to rectify the many to go to the Commonwealth Government, weaknesses in the miners' pension scheme, seeking an excise on coal. They put the although we admit it has a number of ad­ matter to the Minister for National De­ vantages. The position today is not the velopment and proved to him that they same as when the industry was dealt with had a case for consideration. It was then by Judge Drake-Brockman. In one respect decided to have discussions with the Trea­ it is, but the number of employees in the surer-at one of the times he visited Aus­ industry has been greatly reduced. How­ tralia. As honourable members know, he ever, the judge could not have foreseen the is often away from this country. development that was going to take place, the improved production and the fantastic The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: On essential increase in mechanization. Although I have work overseas. heard it denied previously, Governments have given considerable assistance to mine The Ron. F. H. COCKERILL: On two owners. This has been done by way of occasions arrangements were made, but cheap materials supplied by the Joint Coal they could not visit him. They are wait­ Board and the simplification of purchasing ing for him to make another visit to this materials through the Joint Coal Board. country. Their sound proposal should have been explored. At least, it embodied a Prior to the introduction of intensified better principle than the principle in this mechanization many owners could not have measure. This matter has been considered afforded to mechanize their collieries. The by the executive of the Miners' Federa­ Hon. Sir Edward Warren will say that that tion and by boards of management. I does not apply to him, but it applies to know what I am talking about ; I was in some of the collieries he now represents­ it long enough. It has always been known the Aberdares in particular. Great assist­ -and we have always had a grouch about ance was given by the Government and this to Labor governments-that in­ great rewards accrued to the coal owners. sufficient pressure has been applied ·to ob­ The Government would have done a good tain an excise on coal. It could possibly job if it had taken all those things into mean further embarrassments to some mines consideration and had given some thought that are operating today, but new collieries to discussing this matter with the Common­ have developed and new markets are com­ wealth Government, to see whether an ex­ ing in all the time. Further, these things cise could be applied to the industry, with have been accompanied by an ever-increas­ the ultimate aim of providing that no con­ ing improvement in the production of coal. tribution would be made by the miners. Most owners have had their future pros­ pects greatly improved by the development We are not opposing the measure, but I of new power stations. They have much am dissatisfied with the principle, which more security than the employees in the I believe is entirely wrong. If honourable industry. members on the Government side of the We are not opposing the bill, which is House believe it is right, I shall in future providing only another £80,000 to be made be asking the Government to subsidize available for this year. Maybe I am a some of the other funds that are being suspicious man, but I suspect that the Gov­ established. I have in mind the new fund ernment has something in mind for the miners' pension scheme, and that it will at the Broken Hill Proprietary· Company introduce at some time a proposal to alter Limited, which will cost much more than the general basis of the scheme. It has £80,000. Of course, I am sure that the been said by the Minister that considera­ Minister also does not agree with the prin­ tion is being given to this. I view the ciple in this measure. 2632 Coal Mine Workers [COUNCIL] (Superannuation) Bill

The Ron. Sir EDWARD WARREN given themselves a few bouquets tonight, [12.8 a.m.] When following the Minister's so I will give one to myself. At the con­ second-reading speech I found that he clari­ ference it was stated that the interests of fied the matters in the coal mining industry the chairman of the colliery proprietors that are affected by this measure. I fol­ were the interests of the coal industry, which lowed with interest the history of the were the interests of both the miner and the miners' superannuation scheme that was owner. That is a gratifying compliment to given by my colleague the Ron. F. H. be paid at a conference. Today the miner Cockerill. Most superannuation funds are is receiving good pay and I am making a subscribed to jointly by employers and em­ good profit. At the same time I say that ployees, and I cannot understand why the owner can afford to pay for superannua­ preference should be given to coal miners, tion and so can the miner. However, no on the basis suggested by the Ron. F. H. industry can stand excise duty. It is not Cockerill. I cannot follow his reasons. necessary to impose an excise levy. I admit Miners receive attractive pay, but I shall that when the Ron. F. H. Cockerill was not say this evening what their average working in the mines it was not as pleasant earnings are. I commend the Govern­ as it is today and the pay was not what it ment for allocating this extra £80,000; it is today. I do not want to say anything that demonstrates that the Government has some might upset the employees, because I feel concern for the future of the fund. the employees are happy, and I am happy. I do not think an excise levy is any good Today the coal industry is in a better posi­ for an industry, and while I am chairman tion than ever in the history of this Com­ of the colliery proprietors I will oppose it monwealth. strongly. I think that all superannuation The Ron. A. A. ALAM: It is a credit to funds should be contributed to by both the you. employer and the employee. I agree with The Ron. Sir EDWARD WARREN: No, the Ron. F. H. Cockerill that there has be~n a big improvement in the efficiency of the it is not a credit to me. It is a credit to coal industry. Today the miners and the the saneness of the leaders and the fact that employers are happy with the industry. I the industry has been assisted in taxation. cannot go back as far as the Ron. F. H. In the old days everything was taken out of Cockerill can, because I am a much younger the industry, but today so much is put back man. into the industry that it is given strength. The Ron. J. D. KENNY: You say every­ The Ron. J. D. KENNY: What about Old one is happy. Does the Ron. F. H. Cock­ Bulli and the recent disaster? erill accept that everyone is happy? The Ron. Sir EDWARD WARREN: The Ron. Sir EDWARD WARREN: I While I was in Japan there was a disaster might say to the Ron. J. D. Kenny that the there in a mine with some loss of life. Ron. F. H. Cockerill can speak for him­ If the honourable member will look at self. figures for the building industry and other industries, he will find that the number of The Ron. A. D. BRIDGES: The Ron. J.D. fatilities in the coal-mining industry is com­ Kenny only wants to help you. paratively low. I do not want to touch on that The Ron. Sir EDWARD WARREN: He at this late hour. Let us finish on a happy is trying to help the Hon. F. H. Cockerill. note. I say that this Government has shown I think the Hon. F. H. Cockerill's view genuine concern for the future of the miners' would be the same as mine. Recently, at a superannuation fund. We have always been conference attended by representatives of told that we will get an actuary's report, the Miners' Federation we were discussing quite an important matter. We did not have but that has not yet been displayed. I hope to go to a court or a coal board-we were that soon we will know the exact position able to discuss the matter and arrive at an of the miners' superannuation fund, and agreement. Honourable members have then when the matter is looked at fairly- Coal Mine Workers [1 DEc., 1965] (Superannuation) Bill 2633 f ! as the Hon. F. H. Cockerill said, the con­ tribution from £80,000 to £160,000. The ,\ tribution has gone from 2s. a ton to what Hon. F. H. Cockerill has said that the prin­ it is today-it will show that the coal ciple is wrong. Perhaps it is not a principle owners have played their part. Certain that anyone likes, but I believe that what colliery proprietors have complained, but the actuary has said is correct-that the a~ chairman I am not complaining about whole scheme is unsound, needs recon­ the owners' contribution to the fund. I sideration and requires a proper determina­ think the Government's action in doubling tion of the contributions to be made by the its contribution shows a genuine concern various parties. In my opinion that does for the future of the miners' superannuation not mean that the regeneration of the fund fund. I support the bill. would result in no contribution being ex­ acted from the miners. I support entirely The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister for the view of the Hon. Sir Edward Warren Child Welfare, Minister for Social Welfare, that no superannuation fund is worthy of Advisory Minister for Transport and Vice­ the name unless it is a contributory fund. President of the Executive Council) [12.18 a.m.], in reply: The concluding remarks of The Hon. F. H. CocKERILL: We do not the Hon. Sir Edward Warren should im­ subscribe to that. press all honourable members. I am sure The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: You might honourable members appreciate the vast ex­ not- perience of the Hon. F. H. Cockerill and the Hon. Sir Edward Warren. As I have The Hon. F. H. COCKERILL: Why wiH indicated, the actuarial position of the fund not the Government investigate the line is far from satisfactory. The actuary has adopted by the previous Minister in re­ indicated a measure of uncertainty, doubt gard to an excise, irrespective of whether and dissatisfaction, and advises that there the miners contribute or not. will shortly be an assessment of the fund as at 30th June, 1965. Until such time as The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: As the hon­ that assessment has been made, obviously ourable member well knows, the determina­ it would be impractical for the Government tion of a subsidy in that form is entirely to introduce any other measure than an the prerogative of the federal Govern­ act of expediency to deal with an emer­ ment. Constitutionally, no excise can be gency situation. At present there is an levied by a State government. The federal emergency situation facing this fund. For Government has already intimated that it the fund to operate in accordance with the is not willing to put an excise on coal. provisions of the Act, the burden will have That being so, why butt your head up to be imposed on the owners and the em­ against the coal face by saying there should ployees or the Government will have to be an excise. There will be no excise. make a voluntary contribution. For the The previous Government went to the fund to be conducted in accordance with federal Government, it is true, and sought the provisions of the Act, the miners would the easy way out. Rather than face up have to increase their contribution from lls. to 12s. 6d. That is something that the to the problem it said, "Let the federal Government wishes to avoid; it does not Government come to our assistance and wish to impose this burden if there is any make this contribution 'SO that we will means of avoiding it. Similarly, the Gov­ not be forced to increase the contribution ernment does not want the owners' con­ from the owners and the miners." Be­ tribution to be increased from £2 7s. 6d. to cause the federal Government was adamant £2 16s. 3d. -and I agree with Sir Edward Warren The Hon. A. A. ALAM: How can you that it should have been adamant because avoid it? the principle was wrong-the previous Gov· The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: This is the ernment did nothing. It did not increase way it is partly avoided: the Government its contribution from £80,000 to £160,000: has voluntarily decided to increase its con- it did not increase it at all. 2634 Coal Mine Workers Bill [COUNCIL] Factories Bill

Since 1941 the State Government's con­ ADOPTION OF REPORT tribution to this fund has remained static Bill reported without amendment, and at £80,000, and the miners should be report adopted, on motions by the Hon. reasonably grateful to the new Government A. D. Bridges. for the fact that, instead of their being forced to increase their contribution to 12s. 6d., it is to be increased from lls. PUBLIC HEALTH (AMENDMENT) BILL to 11s. 7d., which relatively speaking is a much smaller increase. The Hon. F. H. FIRST READING Cockerill has already intimated that he Bill received from the Legislative will not oppose the measure. He would Assembly and, on motions by the Hon. be indeed foolish to do so. Anyone would A. D. Bridges, read a first time and be foolish to look a gift horse in the mouth. ordered to be printed. Here is a case where the Government has, as an expedient-and I admit that-pend­ ing consideration of the actuary's report, LOCAL GOVERNMENT (AMENDMENT) resolved to double its contribution, and for BILL this everyone should be eternally grate­ FIRST READING ful, except perhaps the taxpayers who have Bill received from the Legislative to find the money. Assembly and, on motions by the Hon. Motion agreed to. A. D. Bridges, read a first time and Bill read a second time. ordered to be printed.

IN COMMI1TEE Clause 1. SUPERANNUATION (AMENDMENT) [Short title and citation] BILL FIRST READING The Hon. F. H. COCKERILL [12.24 a.m.]: The Government's contribution was Bill received from the Legislative increased from £80,000 on this occasion Assembly and, on motions by the Hon. because of a particular crisis that arises at A. D. Bridges, read a first time and this time which did not arise last year, ordered to be printed. the previous year, or in any year during the term of office of the Labor Government. I want to make that point clear. FACTORIES, SHOPS AND INDUSTRIES (AMENDMENT) BILL The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister MESSAGE for Child Welfare, Minister for Social Welfare, Advisory Minister for Transport Message received from the Legislative and Vice-President of the Executive Coun­ Assembly amending the Legislative Coun­ cil) [12.25 a.m.]: There has always been cil's amendment in this bill and inserting a crisis in this fund. There has been an a consequential amendment. upward movement in the contributions year IN COMMITTEE after year, and the Hon. F. H. Cockerill knows that full well. The increase would Consideration of Legislative Assembly's have been considerable this year but for message. the action taken. In the past no ameliorat­ The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister for ing step was taken to reduce the impact on Child Welfare, Minister for Social Welfare, the miners or the owners. On this occa­ Advisory Minister for Transport and Vice­ sion it has been taken and the result is President of the Executive Council) [12.30 that the increase for the people in the in­ a.m.]: I move: dustry is not as great as it otherwise would That the Committee agree to the Legislative have been. Assembly's amendment upon the Legislative Council's amendment and to the Legislative Clause agreed to. Assembly's further amendment in the biii. Factories, Shops and [1 DEC., 1965] Industries (Amendment) Bill 2635 The proposed amendment to the Legislative shops and the penalties imposed in con­ Council's amendment suggested by the nection therewith. Thus it is that the pur­ Legislative Assembly would have the result pose of this amendment moved in another that proposed new subsection 4A would place and submitted for the considera­ read: tion of honourable members here is The amount of any penalty recovered from that proposed new subsection 4A should l a shopkeeper under Part IV of this Act shall have the result that any penalty im­ be paid into the Treasury and carried to the posed on shopkeepers for trading offences Consolidated Revenue Fund. provided for under part IV of the Act During the debate on the amendment last should not be paid to the informant but evening considerable emphasis was laid on instead should be paid into the Consolidated the interpretation of the mandate given to Revenue Fund. In all the circumstances the present Government at the elections I believe that this provides the establish­ held on 1st May last. It was contended ment of a principle which should be gen­ that, though it is true that a mandate was erally accepted. It means that we acknow­ given to take from the magistrate the power ledge that a mandate has been given and at the same time meets the views that have to provide that a portion of the penalty been expressed by members on the opposite exacted against shopkeepers in respect of side of the House. I earnestly suggest in the closing hours be paid to the informant, the circumstances that the amendment to no mandate was given in respect of the the Legislative Council's amendment be safety, health and welfare provisions in the accepted. Factories, Shops and Industries Act or, for The Hon. R. R. DOWNING [12.37 that matter in any other Act. The House a.m.]: I have heard the explanation of the having listened to the arguments eventually Minister and I am pleased that the Gov­ came to the conclusion that there should be ernment has seen the logic of the arguments an amendment which would result in the that were advanced· by the Opposition inclusion of words in proposed new sub­ against the proposals submitted in the original bill. The Government has recog­ section 4A to provide: nized that provisions such as those govern­ The amount of any penalty recovered from ing safety and sanitation, and provisions a shopkeeper of a small shop under this Act generally relating to the protection of em­ shall be paid into the Treasury and carried to Consolidated Revenue Fund. ployees against injury, and maintenance of health standards, are matters in which the It will be appreciated that the inclusion trade unions are vitally interested and which of those words in the bill would result could not be effectively policed without effectually in there being no penalty which the co-operation of the trade-union move­ could be paid into the Consolidated Revenue ment. As I see the amendment proposed Fund in respect of the closing hours of by the Government on the Legislative Coun­ small shops. As a small shop would be cil's amendment, in the brief moments that empowered to operate for twenty-four I have had to consider it, it appears to hours a day, if its owners thought fit to do provide that all fines in respect of part IV, so, then there could obviously be no which is in respect of the hours of trading penalty imposed in respect of closing hours or working in certain industries and particu­ but a penalty could be imposed for other larly confined to shops-- breaches. It will be appreciated by hon­ ourable members, leaving out of considera­ The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: The amend­ tion the arguments advanced yesterday­ ment is confined specifically to shopkeepers. which I do not propose to recapitulate­ Part IV refers to shopkeepers. The amend­ that there was a general acknowledgement ment refers to shopkeepers under part IV. of the fact that at least there was a man­ The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: That is date in respect of the closing hours of right. 2636 Factories Bill . [COUNCIL] Adjournment The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: It does not Legislative Assembly's amendment upon refer to furniture factories, for instance. Legislative Council's amendment and Legis­ lative Assembly's further amendment agreed The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: That is to. right. I can follow that. The amendment refers to any penalty recovered from a ADOPTION OF REPORT shopkeeper under part IV of the Act. This Resolution reported, and report adopted, would mean that the court would still on motions by the Hon. A. D. Bridges. retain the right to award the whole or any part of the penalty to the union the secre­ MESSAGE tary of which was the informant in the case, Motion (by the Hon. A. D. Bridges) such as automatic vending machines and agreed to: the hours of work in furniture factories. That the following message be forwarded to The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES: That is how the Legislative Assembly: · I interpret it. Mr Speaker,- The Hon. R. R. DOWNING: I think The Legislative Council, having had under that is correct, having had a further look consideration the Legislative Assembly's Mes­ at the amendment. The word shopkeeper sage dated lst December, 1965, with reference has a statutory meaning in the Factories, to the Factories, Shops and Industries (Amend­ Shops and Industries Act. It is defined ment) Bill,-agrees to the Assembly's amend­ in section 76 and in another section which ment upon the Council's amendment and to in in effect makes the shopkeeper the occupier the Assembly's further amendment the Bill. of the shop. Part IV applies only to a shopkeeper, that is, the occupier of the ADJOURNMENT shop, and penalties recovered in those casfVS would be paid into the Consolidated BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Revenue Fund. In those circumstances I The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES {12.40 a.m.]: I move: sec no objection to the amendment. I point out merely that this would apply in respect That this House do now adjourn. of any penalty that might be recovered The Hon. R. R. DOWNING [12.41 against some chain stores or large empor­ a.m.]: I know that the order of business is iums in the city. Those penalties would go a matter for the Government but can I take into consolidated revenue and would not of it that the order of placing of bills will be course be limited to small shopkeepers. the order and sequence in which the Gov­ ernment will deal with business later today? The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister for Child Welfare, Minister for Social Wel­ The Hon. A. D. BRIDGES (Minister for · fare, Advisory Minister for Transport and Child Welfare, Minister for Social Welfare, Vice-President of the Executive Council) Advisory Minister for Transport and Vice­ [12.39 a.m.]: Though appreciating what President of the Executive Council) the Hon. R. R. Downing has said I still [12.42 a.m.], in reply: I had not really emphasize that if the amendment carried in given attention to this but I see no reason this House was forced upon us it would be why the order of business should not be in of no value in respect of closing hours. To accordance with the order in which bills that degree the amendment that has been were received in this House. If it is the made in another place at least puts into wish of honourable members to know the print and into this legislation a means of order in which those bills are taken later giving effect to the mandate which was today, that will be the position. granted to the Government. Motion agreed to. Motion agreed to. House adjourned at 12.43 a.m. (Thursday).