Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962] Chief Justice 1109 It seems incongruous that at the time PRINTED QUESTION AND ANSWER when we are spending all this money to provide automatic clerical assistance, which PENALTIES COLLECTED UNDER STAMP DUTIES ACT requires only a small amount of space, the Government is contemplating building a Mr. MADDISON asked the DEPUTY PREMIER, TREASURER AND MINISTER FOR super-dooper office building which will cost INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT AND DECEN­ many millions of pounds. A problem TRALISATION,-Wi!l he inform· the House: associated with the consequences of spend­ (a) what is the total amount collected by ing £20,000 on a survey to effect economies the Commissioner of Stamp Duties by way in the clerical workings of the public ser­ of fines imposed under section 25 of the vice is, what will happen to the displaced Stamp Duties Act, 1920-1959, and (b) public servants. The answer to that can be what is the total amount collected by the Commissioner of Stamp Duties by way of found on page 53 of the Estimates because, interest on death duty as prescribed by (i) as the hon. member for Cronulla said, section 121 (1) of the Stamp Duties Act New South Wales is short of policemen and and (ii) section 121 (2) of the Stamp it is apparent from the Estimates that more Duties Act, for each of the years ending than 5,000 members of the constabulary 30th June, 1961, and 30th June, 1962? seem to spend an inordinately large part of Answer,-(a) Fines are imposed under their time on clerical work. a number of sections of the Stamp Duties The CHAIRMAN: Order! As it is now Act, 1920-1959, including sections 25, 50, 51, 89, 92, 96 and 97. However, no 4.15 o'clock, p.m., I shall, in accordance separate record is kept of the total amount with the sessional order adopted on 11th of fines collected which have been imposed September, leave the chair and report under section 25. The totals recorded of all progress. fines for the years ending 30th June, 1961, Progress reported. and 30th June, 1962, are as follows: fines for year 1960-61, £54,901 ; fines for year 1961-62, £52,695. (b) Interest on death PRINTING COMMITTEE duty not paid within the statutory period THIRD REPORT is charged under section 121 of the Stamp Mr. J. J. T. STEWART, as Acting Chair­ Duties Act, but no separate record is kept man, brought up the Third Report from of the amounts paid under section 121 (1) the Printing Committee. or 121 ( 2) . The total amounts paid under these two subsections for the years ending House adjourned, on motion by 30th June, 1961, and 30th June, 1962, are Mr. Compton, at 4.16 p.m. as follows: interest for year 1960-61, £177,590; interest for year 1961-62, £197,310.

11Jrgi!lltttiur i\anrmhlg: CHIEF JUSTICE OF NEW SOUTH WALES Tuesday, 23 October, 1962 Mr. HEFFRON: It is with extreme re­ gret that I have to announce the retirement of the Chief Justice of New South Wales, Printed Question and Answer-Chief Justice of New South Wales-Notices of Motions and Questions the Right Hon. Mr. Justice Evatt. In the without Notice-Parliamentary Electorates and past twelve months Dr. Evatt has suffered Elections Act-Harbours, Rivers and Foreshores Commission-Estimates, 1962-1963. serious ill-health and it is this that has compelled his retirement. The Government greatly regrets this decision and the reasons Mr. SPEAKER took the chair at 2.30 p.m. for it. It regrets the loss to the State of The Prayer was read. a really great judicial luminary whose legal 1110 Chief Justice of [ASSEMBLY] New South Wales career has had few, if any, parallels. His appointed a member of the UniteJ Nations Honour's retirement will be regretted, also, Conference on International Organisation by the mass of people of this State and of at San Francisco in 1945. In the same year Australia, because the loss is a truly he was appointed chairman of the Far national one. The Right Ron. Herbert Eastern Commission in the United States of Vere Evatt, born at Maitland in 1894, has America, and at the end of 1946 he was had a very distinguished career in both law leader of the Australian delegation to the and politics. He has been an outstanding Paris Peace Conference. figure on the national and international The year 1947 saw his appointment as scene for forty years and more, and he chairman of the British Commonwealth has carved for himself a permanent niche Conference on the Japanese Peace Treaty. in Australia's history. From 1946 to 1948 he was leader of the This is the moment when I think I Australian delegation to the United should make some mention of the career Nations Assembly, of which he was presi­ and the great achievements of the retiring dent in 1948-1949. In those vital years Chief Justice. After early schooling at immediately after UNO's founding, Dr. East Maitland Dr. Evatt transferred to Evatt fought strenuously for the rights of famous Fort Street School when it was at small nations, condemning the veto and its original location at Miller's Point ; he proclaiming that all wisdom did not belong became quite a legend as a scholar among to the big and the strong. many notable contemporaries. At Sydney As president of the United Nations University he won his Bachelor of Arts General Assembly he demonstrated most degree with triple first-class honours and forcefully that an Australian, representing his Master's degree, also with major a small and new nation, could adequately honours, in 1917. His Law Bachelorship, control and guide the deliberations of a accompanied by the University Medal, was world body. Indeed, Dr. Evatt played a foilowed by a doctorate and, again, the major part in helping to shape the United University Medal in 1924. From 1925 to Nations Organisation, and both its survival 1930 he was called to the bar of New and its very considerable achievements owe South Wales, was appointed a life member much more to him than many people of the University Sports Union for services imagine. So long as the United Nations to university sport and became the member Organisation endures, Dr. Evatt will be re­ for Balmain in the Legislative Assembly. membered as the representative of small He earned his King's Counsellorship in nations who stood out against Russian 1929 and later became an honorary bencher vetoes and helped to enlarge the Security of the Middle Temple, London. Between Council to eleven by the addition of six times Dr. Evatt added another degree of smaller nations. Doctor of Literature to his lengthy string The least I can do today, sir, is to pay my of qualifications. personal tribute and the Government's tri­ After leaving politics in 1930 he was a bute to a most talented Australian who be­ greatly distinguished member of the High came a popular world figure and a notable Court Bench for ten years, when he stepped world statesman. Everyone has admired his down to re-enter politics and to aid the great practical energy and superlative diplo­ Australian war effort as a member of the matic capacity. He did much towards en­ federal Parliament, where he remained un­ abling Australia to take her full and rightful til he was appointed Chief Justice of this place in the scheme of world relationships State. Dr. Evatt was appointed a member and affairs. Dr. Evatt has had few critics be­ of the Privy Council in 1942. He led the yond these shores. His unique ability and federal Labor Party 'from 1951, having undoubted achievements in the field of prac­ been Deputy Prime Minister from 1946 to tical and honest diplomacy have impressed 1949 and Attorney-General and Minister themselves on the minds of a heterogeny of for External Affairs from 1941 to 1:)49. He peoples. Because of his firm and valuable led the Australian missions to Wa8hington control as president of UNO, the doctor and London in 1942 and 1943. He was did much for all the peoples of the world Mr. Heffron] Notices of Motions and [23 OcT., 1962] Questions without Notice 1111 by helping to forge the bonds of peace. Mr. MANNIX: I have seen the press re­ He placed the imprint of Australian gov­ port but have not yet had an opportunity ernments on world affairs, and today in to examine it in detail. In our commercial Europe when the word Australia is men­ world the practice has been rapidly grow­ tioned, automatically there is reference to ing of one part of free enterprise tightly the name of Dr. Evatt. It is indeed a tri­ squeezing another part, to the detriment of bute to him and tn Australia that peoples the small man and, in the long run, of the elsewhere, particularly of the United King­ community generally. As a consequence, dom, are so much aware of the doctor's this State has, in the public interest, been splendid contributions to the deliberations paying particular attention to the necessity of the World Parliament, which he chaired to introduce legislation to deal with restric­ so effectively. I sincerely hope-and I be­ tive trade practices. For constitutional lieve it is the hope of all people of good­ reasons it may well be necessary for any will-that in future Dr. Evatt's voice will such legislation to be complementary to again be heard publicly with that great legislation brought down in other States attention and respect that he won locally and the Commonwealth. This is being and at international conference tables where examined at ministerial level by the he brought new lustre to Australia's name Attorneys-General of the Commonwealth in the halls of diplom!lcy. and the States. Progress has been good I thank you, Mr. Speaker, and the House to date, but it seems now, in the light of for permitting me to make that tribute to the recent economic recession in Australia, Dr. Evatt. And now, if I may be per­ that in the absence of these restrictive laws, mitted, I wish to announce the appointment a gate is open whereby the big can get today by the Executive Council of his suc­ bigger and the small will be crushed far cessor, who has been acting as the Chief smaller. I feel that little manufacturers, Justice for some months, Mr. Justice Leslie little men in business, and consumers gener­ Herron. He is the new Chief Justice of ally demand the introduction of legislation New South Wales. to control adequately, in the nation's economy, many of the restrictive trade prac­ NOTICES OF MOTIONS AND tices that are rampant. QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE FINES IMPOSED ON UNIONS CHAIN STORES Mr. McCAW: My question is directed Mr. MALLAM: I ask the Minister of to the Premier. Is it correct, as reported Justice whether his attention has been in­ in this morning's press, that representatives vited to an article in today's Daily Tele­ of ten trade unions which, some time ago, graph headed "Squeeze by Retail Chains", were fined for breaches of the industrial wherein it was alleged by Mr. T. B. Car­ law, are soon to wait upon the Premier ruthers, president of the Australian Associa­ in deputation? Is it a fact that these trade tion of Advertising Agencies and probably union representatives waited upon the Minis­ one of the best-informed advertising men ter of Justice requesting the waiving of in Australia, that powerful retail chain stores the penalties imposed on them and that, were putting the squeeze on manufacturers after the Minister considered the matter by questionable practices. If this is a fact, for about twelve months, he rejected their will the Minister investigate the position appeal? Does the Premier's intention to fully in the light of the Monopolies Act, receive these representatives again in deputa­ and if the Monopolies Act is unsuitable will tion on the same subject mean that he has the Minister introduce legislation similar to constituted himself a court of appeal from the American Robinson-Patman Act, to pro­ the Minister of Justice? If so, is this an tect the consumer, the small shopkeeper and the smaller manufacturers from cold­ advantage conceded to representatives of blooded and ruthless exploitation by power­ these trade unions only, or is it to be a pre­ drunk food monopolies that operate in this cedent upon which all convicted persons or State? organisations may henceforward act? 1112 Notices of Motions and [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice

Mr. HEFFRON: It is a fact that repre­ Mr. LEWIS: Mr. Speaker, on a point sentatives of the Labor Council of New of order. I submit that the question is not South Wales and, I think, representatives of supplementary to the one asked by the hon. the members of the unions that were fined member for Lane Cove. His question re­ some time ago for industrial breaches, lated to fines imposed on trade unions and have asked to come and see me. It is a to the Government's apparent reluctance fact, also, that I have said to the secretary to forcing the unions' hands. I submit of the Labor Council of New South Wales, that this question has nothing to do with "Yes, I will see your deputation." I have one relating to fines of trade unions. never refused to see a representative of the unions and I have never refused to see a Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I cannot follow representative of the employers. Sometimes every phase of every question asked, but I have seen representatives of churches, it was clear to me that the penultimate or even on controversial matters. I have never ultimate sentence of the question asked by refused to see both sides, if they wanted the hon. member for Lane Cove was, "Is to come to me to tell me their story. A this a precedent to be available generally section of the Employers' Federation of to suitors or litigants?" That being so, I New South Wales or an employers' body am obliged to accept the supplementary is waiting to see me about some other question. matter, also. I am here as Premier. This Mr. HEFFRON: Times out of number is a democracy and I like people who hon. members on both sides of the House, have some g.rievance or feel that their especially the Opposition side, make these views are not being properly looked at by representations on behalf of constituents. someone else-- Opposition members know that they have Mr. Cox: Are the unions going to pay? done this over the years. When my friend the hon. member for Monaro asks me to Mr. SPEAKER: Order! request the Minister of Justice to compile a list of all such representations, I can only Mr. HEFFRON: --to feel that ·they reply that I would not mind being able to can come and see the Premier of the State. obtain this information. However, so many I will certainly see them. If the representa­ requests have been made that I should be tives of the Employers' Federation of New asking my colleague to undertake a very South Wales want to see me the following big job. The fact remains that it has been a day, they, too, will be welcome to come common practice in this Parliament and, along. I do not mind seeing them at all, indeed, all Parliaments, for hon. members to and I certainly do not mind seeing repre­ be asked from time to time to make repre­ sentatives of trade unions. sentations on behalf of constituents, or to Mr. SEIFFERT: As a supplementary refer particular complaints to the Minister question relating to the making of repre­ of Justice or the appropriate Minister. I sentations to the Premier or the Minister of have, as I think every hon. member here Justice for the waiving of fines or penalties has, referred cases for consideration by imposed by our various courts, I ask the appropriate Ministers. I certainly do not Premier whether numerous requests are regard, and never have regarded, this prac­ made for the revision of penalties imposed tice as wrong. I am sure no hon. member by the courts, and whether a considerable does. If any hon. member has a complaint number of them come from members of about this practice, the first one to whom he should complain is the man he views every the Liberal Party and the Country Party. day in the mirror. Will the Premier confer with the Minister of Justice with a view to ascertaining par­ CENTRAL-WEST AGRICULTURAL ticulars of the cases and the number of RESEARCH STATION times Opposition members have asked the Mr. FREUDENSTEIN: I ask the Min­ Government to review penalties, and have ister for Agriculture whether, during the them tabled in this House? past week or two, his attention has Notices of Motions and [23 OcT., 1962] Questions without Notice 1113 been called to a bill that was introduced Mr. McMAHON: It is a fact that be­ in the federal Parliament to provide for cause of industrial unrest associated with the transfer of more than £250,000 from a rates of pay determined for the operation Commonwealth trust fund set up under the of one-rnan buses, the members of the Wheat Industry Assistance Act. Is it in­ union involved decided to take action, with tended that this money be spent by the the result that private bus services were States? Is the money to be used in research not in operation. I am aware that the and extension work? If so, when the Min­ failure of bus services to operate caused ister is planning the expenditure of the inconvenience, but that has happened on sum allocated to this State, will he consider many other occasions when the unions have establishing a research station in the Cen­ decided to take certain action in respect of tral-west agricultural region? working conditions-which is their right. This is not the sort of action that is in the Mr. ENTICKNAP: It is true that legis­ best .interests of service to the public and lation has been introduced to make avail­ it causes considerable inconvenience to able to the States as a whole the sum of people travelling to and from their place money referred to by the hon. member. of employment, to school or wherever their I do not at the moment know the exact daily routine might take them. I am not sum that will be allocated to New South aware of and my attention has not been Wales but careful consideration will have invited to the fact that some private bus to be given to how it is spent to give the owners, after the men had decided to go best results for wheat research. I know back to work and operate the service, failed that a valuable research station has been to give a service in accordance with the established in the North-west but I do not licence granted to them by the Commis­ think any has been established in the South sioner for Motor Transport. I shall seek or South-west. inform'ation from the commissioner, see Mr. FIFE: We have a research station at what reports have been submitted to the Wagga Wagga. department and inform the hon. member for Sutherland and the House as soon as Mr. ENTICKNAP: I thank the hon. I have the report. member for reminding m·e. I shall look at the position and see that the money is spent DENTAL HOSPITAL OF SYDNEY in the best interests of wheat research in Mr. WADDY: I ask the Minister for New South Wales. Health whether he has read a statement in The Sun of Thursday, 18th October last, GYMEA BUS SERVICE reported to have been made by the super­ intendent of the Sydney Dental Hospital, Mr. DALTON: I ask the Minister for to the effect that over 5,000 people are Transport whether on Thursday last a num­ awaiting the supply of dentures, and that ber of private bus services in the metro­ between 75 and 80 per cent of those wait­ politan area ceased operations. Is it a fact ing are pensioners. Is it a fact that pen­ that on Friday an agreement was reached sioners have to wait fifteen months from after certain court proceedings? Is it a the date they apply to the hospital until fact, too, that all bus operators were to their first appointment with the dentist? If return to normal services? Is it further a these are facts will the Minister inform the fact that Mr. Millett, owner of the Gymea House what action he intends to initiate to bus company, closed his depot at Gymea eliminate this highly unsatisfactory state of over the week-end and because his drivers affairs, which has been known to the Gov­ had to be 13aid penalty rates did not operate ernment for over twenty-one years? a service? Was the public left stranded over the week-end? If these are facts will Mr. SHEAHAN: It has not been known the Minister say what action, if any, will to me for twenty-one years. The fact of be taken by the transport department the matter is that 5,096 people are on the against this company for failing to give waiting list at the dental hospital and about service to the public? 75 to 80 per cent of these are pensioners. 1114 Notices of Motions and [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice The fact is that there is a grave· shortage Mr. SHEAHAN: There is no new agree­ of dentists in this State, so much so that ment, as the Commonwealth has not entered the enrolment for dental courses at the into any agreement. The State Ministers for universities has fallen from 200 a few years Health issued a common statement yester­ ago to only seventy-seven in the current day to the effect that they had decided year. In addition to that, 500 dentists have that the Commonwealth Government had left Australia for England and of those departed from the spirit of the Common­ 400 went from New South Wales. The wealth health scheme and has refused to Department of Health has not been able enter into a new agreement, but has handed to obtain enough dentists to give the ser­ State Ministers proposals which did not re­ vice mentioned by the hon. member. I late to decisions of the conference held am as much perturbed about this as he is, earlier this year and in connection with and I intend to introduce a bill to amend which we have been seeking to confer with the Dentists Act to enable us to appoint the Commonwealth ever since. However, dentists with the requisite qualifications blatant propaganda has been put forward from overseas in the same way as we are to place this Government in a false light now allowing qualified doctors from over­ about something alleged to have been done seas to practise here. The shortage of yesterday. It was this propaganda issued dentists is deplorable, and cannot be cured from Canberra that was published in The by a mere wave of the hand. Sydney Morning Herald. If the hon. mem­ Last week the hon. member directed to ber is under the illusion that pensioners me a question about the salaries of den­ are to be treated free in public hospitals tists, and in reply I informed him that by reason of the Commonwealth's action, I did not intend to interfere with a matter he is making a grave mistake-as is any that was before the arbitration court. I newspaper editor or publisher who comes said that it was not my policy to interfere to the same conclusion. The fact is that with arbitration proceedings. I do not know this Government has been giving free hos­ from whom the hon. member received the pital treatment to pensioners since 1953 information that he put forward in his in the public wards of all the hospitals of question at that time, but when he asked the State. Long-term patients have been it a matter was pending before a concilia­ provided for by a payment of two-thirds tion commissioner in connection with a of their pensions and public ward treat­ claim for dentists' salaries. The action that ment for other pensioner patients has been I propose in connection with the amend­ free. In the past the Commonwealth has ment of the Dentists Act, and the claim now contributed one-fif.th of the cost of insured before the conciliation commissioner, may and pensioner patients, but for uninsured relieve the conditions complained about by patients one-tenth of the daily bed cost. the hon. member, but the hon. member will The offer of 36s. to be paid to us is a be able to examine the bill that I intend cut-and-dried proposition which every to bring down. I hope that he wili vote Minister for Health from every State in for it. Australia objected to yesterday. It means that only one-third of the pensioner cost is being provided by the Commonwealth COMMONWEALTH HOSPITAL BENEFITS while the State provides two-thirds of the Mr. K. J. STEWART: My question is cost. However, that applies only to age directed to the Minister for Health. Is it pensioners who have entitlement cards. at fact that a new Commonwealth-State Those who have not entitlement cards do hospital benefits agreement was announced not get the 36s. a day payment, and I today? If this is a fact is the new agree­ regret to say that no part of that sum is ment satisfactory to this State and does it comply in any respect with the deci­ paid in respect of pensioners in hospitals sions of the conference of Ministers for like the Lottie Stewart Hospital, the Health held in Canberra in February of Hospice for the Dying, the Home of Peace this year? and other hospitals of that sort in certain Notices. of Motions arid [23 OcT., 1962] Questions without Notice 1115

country towns. Pensioners in those hospitals to force the States to accept the Common­ will lose 4s. a day under the new wealth proposals. The State Health Min­ arrangement with the Commonwealth. isters need not have met the Common­ wealth representatives ; the Commonwealth Mr. CoADY: It is a shame. might just as well have sent the States par­ Mr. SHEAHAN: The States were pre­ ticulars of the proposal. If the hon. mem­ sented with a fait accompli. First, the State ber for Burwood wants a copy of them, Health Ministers' conference asked for a here they are. If he can see daylight in Commonwealth contribution of one-third them, and if he holds that they do not for ordinary patients and one-half for pen­ make confusion worse confounded, I shall sioners. The States asked that Common­ be obliged to form a different opinion of wealth assistance be considered for out­ his ability. I know the hon. member for patients' treatment and for mental patients Burwood is interested in the welfare of aged under the new concept of mental health. persons. He may look at the particulars Mental patients entering an admission of the proposal and consult officials who are centre, though they have contributed to the better able than I to judge these matters. fund for years, obtain nothing at all from I assure him that every Health Minister the Commonwealth: the whole cost falls from the other States is most disappointed upon the States. All these submissions were with the trip to Canberra yesterday. rejected by the Commonwealth. The hon. Mr. COADY: As a supplementary ques­ member for Burwood may think from read­ tion, I ask the Minister whether, in speaking ing the newspaper report that the States have been handed a juicy turkey to carve in the budget debate last week, I dwelt at up among themselves, but if he consults length on the history of the Commonwealth­ some of the Health Ministers of his own States Hospital Agreement and emphasised party from other States, he will learn that that the Menzies Government had continu­ it was merely a tough cockatoo baked by ally failed to maintain the same ratio of the Commonwealth officials to the point of financial assistance to hospitals as that being unpalatable. initiated by the Chifley Government in I further emphasise that even if the Com­ 1948. Did the Minister, at the recent con­ monwealth did not wish to enter into a new agreement with the States, it could have ference, seek an explanation on this aspect merely amended the regulations to the from the federal Minister for Health? National Health Act. It is now proposed Mr. SHEAHAN: The federal Minister to introduce an Act of Parliament to oper­ ate from 1st January, 1963, but the pen­ for Health parried questions on federal and sioners will not get the benefit for the past State contributions. The Western Austra­ six months. The onus o.f meeting these lian Minister for Health, Mr. Hutchison, a payments falls on the States, which are member of the Brand Government, made a getting very little from the Commonwealth. strong contribution on this point. He quoted I expressed grave objection to officials not only the original agreement, but also meeting to work out the details of the the words of Sir Earle Page in 1952 that scheme. I said clearly that I would not be bound by any details worked out by offi­ the Commonwealth "would increase the cials, that the New South Wales Govern­ payment to pensioners to 12s. and those ment is a sovereign government, and it insured to 12s. to ensure that the hospitali­ will determine whether it accepts what is sation of the sick public generally would proposed. Unfortunately, New South remain solvent." The Menzies Govern­ Wales and the other States have not been ment is doing exactly the opposite. It is treated as sovereign partners in a federal trying to break the hospitals system-so system ; they have been treated as vassals. much so, that many patients will be pre­ The financial provisions of the uniform vented from obtaining hospital treatment taxation Act have been used as a bludgeon when they need it. 1116 Notices of Motions and [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice POKER-MACHINE TAX Australian nation. However, I doubt Mr. CROSS: I ask the Premier whether whether that will be adequate. For some early this month he received a strongly­ years I have considered that the brochure worded letter of protest from the executive now available at Parliament House does not of the New South Wales R.S.L. Clubs' As­ do justice to the mother Parliament of Aus­ sociation concerning the proposed tax on tralia, and that it could be greatly im­ poker machines. Did the association seek proved. The hon. member for Byron's from the Premier an assurance that, if his endorsement of my views will give me heart Government pursued its intention to impose to pursue the question of revising the book­ this tax, the hundreds of charitable orga­ let to ensure that a more presentable pub­ nisations, youth clubs and individuals now lication is prepared, using modern tech­ financed by the R.S.L. clubs would have to niques and formats to do justice to this be taken over by the Government? Parliament. Will the Premier inform the House what assurance, if any, he has given PETROL PRICES to the executive of the New South Wales Mr. CONNOR: I ask the Minister for R.S.L. Clubs' Association? Housing and Minister for Co-operative Mr. HEFFRON: I am not quite sure Societies, who represents in this House the what letter the hon. member is referring to, Minister for Labour and Industry, whether but I shall examine my file and shall let his attention has been invited to the let­ him' have a reply at question time ting of a contract yesterday, by the Sydney tomorrow. County Council to the Amoco Australia Proprietary Limited petrol company, to NEW SOUTH WALES PARLIAMENT supply petrol in respective grades at prices 1s. a gallon lower than the current retail Mr. STEPHENS: Mr. Speaker, is it prices. Will the Minister ask his colleague a fact that next year this country will cele­ to institute an immediate inquiry into the brate the 175th anniversary of its founding current profit margins of the various major and establishment? During that 175 years petrol companies operating in this State has this Parliament, the mother Parliament having regard to the present over·produc­ of the Commonwealth, played an important tion and general price competition overseas, part in the development of the Australian and the extent that excessive prices and nation? Further, when visitors from over­ profits are being used to subsidise the dump­ seas or from this country visit Parliament ing of residual fuel oil in competition with House, is only a small booklet available to Australian-produced coal? remind them of the part the New South Wales Parliament has played during the Mr. LANDA: I noticed that the news­ first 175 years of this country's progress? paper article that mentioned the tender sub· Mr. Speaker, if these are facts, and in view mitted by the Amoco Australia Pro_fJrietary of the celebrations that will take place next Limited stated that the price was ls. a year, will you consult the organising com­ gallon lower than the price tendered by mittee for the celebrations to see whether other companies. I do not know the details any publication that is produced incor­ but I shall undertake to bring the matter porates an account of the part played by to the notice of the Minister for Labour this Parliament in the first 175 years of and Industry, and I shall let the hon. mem­ nationhood of Australia? Would this be ber for Wollongong-Kembla have an a suitable publication to be handed to answer in due course. visitors to this establishment, both next year during the celebrations and in subsequent FERTILISER FREIGHT RATES years? Mr. LEWIS: I ask the Minister for Mr. SPEAKER: I shall certainly take up Transport whether some weeks ago the Pre­ with the Premier the question of incor­ mier announced that from 1st November porating in a brochure the part played by there would be a savage increase of rail this Parliament in the development of the freights within this State. As part of this Notices of Motions and [23 OcT., 1962] Questions without Notice 1117

increase, are manure rates to be increased Mr. McMAHON: The bon. member throughout the country? In pasture im­ should realise that these are matters solely provement areas, is there to be a further within the administration of the Depart­ additional charge allowing, however, a re­ ment of Railways. The Commissioner for bate if the user of the manure or fertiliser Railways has been asked similar questions uses the railways for the transport of his by other hon. members and all the answers wool, sheep or wheat to the city? If these will be available in due course. are facts, will the Minister explain how the Department of Railways will determine Mr. CHAFFEY: As a supplementary what is a pasture improvement area? Also, question I ask the Minister for Transport what is the position of a primary producer whether this special rate will actually be a who does not send his produce by curb on development. Does the use of rail but sells it on the farm to another fertiliser considerably increase the output party? of wool, livestock and other agricultural products in pasture improvement areas, the Mr. McMAHON: The Premier did not development of which, in itself, guarantees make this announcement about increased additional revenue and business for the freight rates ; it was made by the Deputy railways? Is it a fact that the imposition Premier and Treasurer in his budget speech. of this penalty rate in areas close to a I cannot agree with the hon. member for State border, where many producers send Wollondilly that this is a savage increase their produce to market in the adjoining in freight rates. The rates that have been State, will tend to compel them to purchase increased are few in number and they have their fertiliser in the adjoining State, caus­ been adjusted so that they impose no heavy ing loss of business to the railways, as well burden. Bearing in mind that last year as to our own industries? railway revenue was about £89,000,000 and that the proposed increases in fares Mr. McMAHON: Over the years most and freight would bring in an additional primary producers have received great £3,000,000, this is only a small increase. benefits from reduced rail freights and other concessions in the transport of manures. The hon. member for Wollondilly wants However, many primary producers, having to know how the Department of Railways accepted all these benefits and concessions, determines pasture improvement areas. The have not demonstrated their loyalty to department consulted the Department of the railways by sending all their wool, Agriculture and determined the pasture livestock and wheat by rail. They have improvement areas for the purpose of availed themselves of the alternative system of road transport, which is undercutting rebates in the recent freight increases the instrumentality which, in the initial on manures and fertilisers. The im­ stages, helped to develop this primary-pro­ plementation of these increases is a ducing State. At the same time, other rail matter of administration. The hon. mem­ users have had to pay increased freight ber for Wollondilly, who represents a rural rates and the State as a whole has had to electorate, is well aware of departmental bear a big burden in rail deficits because practice on rebates of rail freights. The the department has not received from some full charge is made and the customer then primary producers the reciprocal treatment makes a claim for the rebate. In this that it might reasonably expect. The De­ instance, if he can show that he comes partment of Railways faces a great deal of within the category of those primary pro­ competition from road hauliers, particularly ducers who use the railways for the trans­ on the border, in the cartage of wool, but port of their primary produce, he will get I remind bon. members that the department the benefit of the rebate. has granted concessions for the transport Mr. LEWIS: What happens if he sells his of wool. New South Wales is not the only produce on the farm? State faced with this loss of revenue on its 1118 Notices of Motions and [ASSEMBLY] Questions without Notice railways. Our sister States of Queensland The inter-departmental level crossing com­ and Victoria are confronted with the same mittee is the responsible body that makes problem. the initial study and recommendation and I do not share the fears of the Acting then consults with the local-government Leader of the Country Party that these con­ authority on the decisions that have been ditional rate rebates to those who use the reached. I am informed that an examina­ railways for the transport of their wool tion of the use of the Oakey Park level and wheat will have the effect of making crossing disclosed that between 6 a.m. and them turn towards markets in adjoining 6 p.m. forty-six locomotives had gone States for their fertiliser. Probably in some through the crossing and there were sixty border areas, because of the proximity of shunting movements across it. The cross­ a town in an adjoining State, some will deal ing crosses five electrified tracks, but the with the State from which they can get some number of motor vehicles and passengers commodities at a cheaper rate. Nevertheless, using it is small. Counting between 6 a.m. I emphasise that over the years the Depart­ and 6 p.m. showed that only eight motor ment of Railways has helped the primary vehicles and a small number of people, in­ producer in times of drought by carting cluding about five school children, had used starving stock, and has given concessions the crossing. It is possible that a viaduct to help him improve his property so that was included in the original plans for the he has been able to get a better pasture, electrification of the lines, but I am not a better product, and a higher price. If aware that a previous Minister promised the primary producer uses the railways, that a viaduct would be constructed. I am which have made these concessions avail­ informed that it would cost about £60,000 able to him, a further benefit will accrue to to construct a viaduct or subway there. him and to the State. Following the council's rejection of ,the proposal to close the Oakey Park level crossing, the matter has been referred back OAKEY PARK LEVEL CROSSING to the inter-departmental committee, which Mr. ROBSON: I ask the Minister for will deal with it at its next meeting. I shall Transport whether the inter-departmental let the hon. member for Hartley know what level crossing committee has recommended decision is arrived at. the closing of a level crossing between Oakey Park and Vale of Clwydd, at Lith­ COAL EXPORTS gow. Is it a fact that the closing of the Mr. McCARTNEY: I ask the Minister crossing would split the town into two sec­ for Mines whether it is a fact that recently tions and that at present the Lithgow City a trade mission visited South American Council, with my co-operation, is trying countries to promote additional markets for to add to the city instead of taking away coal. Is it a fact, also, that the delega­ from it? Some years ago did a former tion has returned with reports that under Minister for Transport promise that a via­ certain conditions Australia could extend duct would be constructed at the site of its coal exports? Is it further a fact that this level crossing? Is it a fact, also, that the delegation reported that, with the satis­ if the crossing were closed, business houses factory present arrangements and assistance in the area would lose considerably and in shipping charges, Australia could com­ that the people who now use the crossing pete with countries that sell coal to that would have to travel two miles into town? area? If these are facts, will the Minister If these are facts will the Minister ensure discuss the position with the Federal Minis­ that the crossing is retained until a viaduct ter for National Development, Senator Spooner, so that additional security can is constructed? be given to the men employed in the coal Mr. McMAHON: For some time the industry? bon. member has been making persistent Mr. SIMPSON: I had the privilege of representations for the construction of a examining a few weeks ago the report from viaduct at the Oakey Park level crossing. the trade mission to South America. I Parliamentary Electorates Act [23 OcT., 1962] Harbours Commission 1119 agree with the hon. member for Hamilton problems of siltation, erosion and pollution that it is a valuable and most informative along the foreshores of, and in the harbours and rivers of the State. report and that the investigations made by the mission were of a high order. However, Upon which Mr. Griffith had moved: I am not so optimistic as to think that That the question be amended by leaving there is at present or will be in the fore­ out the words "give consideration to setting seeable future much chance of Australian up" with a view of inserting the words "set coal breaking into those markets. My up" instead thereof. reasons for this are, first, that South Mr. R. J. KELLY (East Hills) [3.31]: America is easily accessible from a num­ When I was addressing the House pre­ ber of the main coal-producing countries, viously on this motion I endeavoured to including the United States of America, portray the need for effective and unified West Germany and Poland and, second, control of our rivers and estuaries and that those countries have a better chance gave Salt Pan Creek as an example. Un­ than Australia has of obtaining return fortunately, the newspapers seemed to re­ cargoes for their shipping. At pre­ gard my portrayal as funny and treated it sent Australia has no direct shipping with completely out of its context, ignoring the South America, and even if coal could be harm that is being done to the Georges shipped direct there would be no return River by pollution. I mentioned that re­ traffic. The feature of the mission's re­ ports that I had seen just prior to port that impressed me most was its refer­ making my speech indicated that a lot of ence to the quality of coal that is being the dangers created by pollution in the sold in South America. Specifications for river had abated. Subsequently I saw an coal for the steel industry were set out, additional report which indicates that in the and I doubt whether Australia could pro­ Williams Creek area, adjacent to the Com­ vide coking coal of the quality specified. monwealth migrant centre, the incidence of South America requires coal with an excep­ pollution was dangerously high, as it was tionally low volatile content and low ash in the East Hills baths and also at Lam­ content which we do not produce. The in­ beth Street. The Government Analyst's re­ digenous coal from South America is not of port added that this was probably due to good quality, but by blending it with im­ the heavy run-off of rain in that area. It ported coals a suitable product can be ob­ in.dicates that there is considerable pollution tained. I shall be only to pleased to discuss still in the river and that even at this stage the matter with Senator Spooner and to it is dangerous to allow anyone to swim assist in any way possible to. bring about a there. break-through for our coal into the South Previously I dealt at length with the American market. local need for river control and pointed out how difficult it was to get any authority PARLIAMENTARY ELECTORATES AND with power to act. I am particularly wor­ ELECTIONS ACT ried about the possibility of pollution of Statistical returns for general election the Warragamba Dam by effluent from the for Legislative Assembly on 3rd March, Blue Mountains. We know that the effluent 1962, tabled and, on motion by Mr. from the treatment works in Lithgow C. A. Kelly, ordered to be printed. eventually finds. its way into Farmers Creek, the Cox's River, and back into the Warra­ HARBOURS, RIVERS AND FORESHORES gamba River. The electrification of the COMMISSION railway service to Lithgow and the conse­ Debate resumed (from 9th October, quent influx of population into towns on vide page 824) on motion by Mr. Crabtree: the Blue Mountains, will lead to another That, in the opinion of this House, the definite source of pollution. I believe that Government should "give consideration to setting up" a Harbours, Rivers and Foreshores in conformity with the terms of the original Commission for the purpose of dealing with motion we should have some body, with 1120 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission over-riding authority, which can determine winds the entrances to many of these rivers action to be taken to prevent pollution of change. It is expensive to try to deal with these streams and dams. the flooding that occurs throughout the I have noticed, during my travels in the North Coast, and on the South Coast, too. country, that in most floods a lot of debris The Minister for Public Works is fully is washed from adjoining properties into aware of these difficulties. From time ·to the river and left to lie there until the next time new works have been considered and flood occurs. This has the effect of dam­ bills have been introduced to build har­ ming the rivers. Between floods it does not bours on the coast. I am referring more seem to be the responsibility of anyone to to silting, and particularly to silting in the cleanse these rivers. No authority has the rivers out in the far west. funds or could set to work to clear away I know that the Hunter Valley Conserva­ trees or other debris that is in the rivers. tion Trust has had considerable work done li we had some authority, with funds, that and that the Water Conservation and Irriga­ could do this work, we could reduce to a tion Commission and the Department of minimum the damage that is caused by Public Works have assisted. A party from floods in the rivers. It is important also this House went, as guests of the Minister that we should have some authority to pre­ for Public Works, to have a look at the vent landholders in the vicinity of rivers hydraulic laboratory at Manly. A detailed from allowing dead wood and other refuse miniature model of the Hunter Valley had to lie in their paddocks-debris that been made to study problems of flooding, eventually is washed into the streams. especially in the Maitland area. Many There should be some authority to compel experiments have been conducted and a lot these landowners to keep their properties of money has been spent in trying to miti­ cleared of debris. gate flooding in the Hunter Valley. How­ I have perused various reports made by ever, it is a pretty difficult problem. I know the Public Works Committee, dating back that it is planned eventually to build six sixty or seventy years, following inquiries dams, similar to the Glenbawn Dam, to into flood mitigation projects on various control floodwaters and thus mitigate flood­ coastal rivers. Silting and flooding are not ing. It is almost impossible to prevent silt­ new, especially in rivers on the eastern coast ing o.f the rivers. I remember my father of New South Wales. These problems seem telling me that as a young man he worked to have worried the Legislature of this State on the building of the bridge in Singleton, for a very long period. The hon. member and at that time the Hunter River was 30 for Clarence spoke of the silting that was feet to 40 feet below the level of the occurring in North Coast rivers and the bridge. Now, silting has raised the river inability of ships to navigate the rivers with bed almost to the level of the bridge, and consequent loss to the coastal shipping trade. very little clearance remains. Mr. P. N. RYAN: How long ago was A short time ago the hon. member for this? Gloucester referred in the House to the Hunter River breaking its banks at Single­ Mr. R. J. KELLY: I am referring to ton. The floodwaters swept acwss South the remarks of the hon. member for Singleton and joined the river again lower Clarence when speaking to this motion. He down. If we had some authority, with a mentioned that ships cannot now ply the constant source of funds, that could regu­ rivers because they are not kept clear for larly patrol these rivers, it could under­ navigation. When these rivers were used take immediate work to clear the debris by ships the action of their screws kept from the streams and thus overcome much the silt from forming into banks. The of the flooding that previously occurred. Minister for Public Works knows that con­ Of course, there are many contributory siderable sums have been spent on break­ factors to the silting and flooding of rivers. waters and on dredging these rivers. Be­ Ron. members saw in the Parliamentary cause of the existence of the continental Library a film depicting the flooding of the shelf and the vagaries of the tides and Tennessee Valley in the United States of Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962] F oreshores Commission 1121

America. Hon. members who saw it fishing in the rivers. Of course, the Chief realised that the cutting down of the tim­ Secretary would still be responsible for the ber, the clearing of the land and un­ control of fishing in outside waters. Thus, scientific farming methods all contributed there would be duplication of authority. to the erosion of the soil which found What I am trying to point out is that by its way into the river. Doubtless over the requiring the Government to establish, im­ years the farmers in the Hunter Val­ mediately, a commission to control pollu­ ley have tried to get the best possible tion of rivers, some difficulties will arise, production from their properties and have including some that even now are not thus contributed to the silting that has apparent. occurred. If pollution of the Georges River in­ Talk of silting in our northern rivers re­ creases, it is difficult to estimate its effect minds me of another trouble many years on the large oyster business that is carried ago that had an adverse effect on river on there, or on the fish who live on some trade. Various local councils attempted to of the solid matter that is now to be found overcome the problem posed by the chok­ in the river water. I have given some ing of the rivers by water hyacinth. Legis­ thought to this matter since first it came lation was not introduced in Parliament, to my attention and, though I realise that but back in 1906 a voluntary effort was some difficulties must be overcome, I ap­ made to deal with the problem. In 1913 preciate also that some urgent action must the Coraki Water Hyacinth Eradication be taken. How these difficulties will be Board was established at the instigation of overcome is a matter for Government con­ a local member of Parliament, Mr. George sideration. I do not know whether the Nesbitt. This voluntary organisation at­ commission envisaged in the motion will be tempted to raise money from the local established on similar lines to the one that municipal and shire councils to finance the is operating in Victoria under that State's work of the board in ridding the rivers of water and irrigation commission. Ob­ water hyacinth. Eventually the work was viously, the local authorities must have rewarded with success. So impressed was some say in what is done by the commis­ the Minister for Public Works of the day, sion. I urge hon. m'embers to agree to the Mr. Arthur Griffith, with the work of the motion and let the Government work out Coraki Water Hyacinth Eradication Board a system for the control of rivers that will that he had incorporated in the Local Gov­ result in a solution of some of the prob­ ernment Act a provision to enable county lems that have come to light in this debate. councils to be established to deal with the I commend the motion to the House. problem of water hyacinth in regional areas. However, what is envisaged in the Mr. RUDDOCK (The Hills) [3.44]: I motion before the House is an authority am prompted to rise in the debate on this appointed with State-wide power to deal motion, first because such an important with problems posed by the pollution of matter is involved in it and second because our rivers. of the interest I have taken in this subject over quite a number of years. I compli­ The amendment moved by the hon. ment the hon. member for Kogarah on member for Cronulla amounts to a direc­ tion to the Government to set up a moving the motion. However, I felt that commiSSIOn to deal with the matter when the hon. member for Cronulla moved immediately. I think the hon. member will his amendment, which would result in posi­ find that if the amendment were agreed to, tive, immediate action being taken, the hon. some difficulties would arise in implement­ member for Kogarah would have said, ing it. One that springs immediately to "Well, as this is a slight alteration that mind is the control of fishing which comes will result in the immediate establishment within the administration of the Chief Secretary's Department. By handing to an of a commission instead of this being done authority complete control of our rivers in the distant future or perhaps never at we shall hand over also the control of all, I shall accept it." Apparently .the 71 1122 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission Minister for Public Works and other Gov­ or something of the sort. One would have ernment members, including the hon. mem­ expected those officers to have said, "Let ber for Kogarah, said among themselves, us get on with the job and do something "Possibly the amendment is a good idea, about it." but as it comes from the Opposition, we The hon. member for Kogarah and the shall throw it out." hon. member for East Hills have done the Mr. CRABTREE: Not all Opposition mem­ House a service in that, though they have bers favour the amendment. not openly criticised the Government, they have implied that there is something lack­ Mr. RUDDOCK: I shall be glad to see ing in its administration of our harbours, the hon. member for Kogarah cross the rivers and foreshores. So I compliment floor and vote for the amendment. both the hon. member for Kogarah and Mr. CRABTREE: It will be vice versa. We the hon. member for East Hills for criticis­ shall have some Opposition members cross­ ing even by implication. I do not suggest ing the floor to vote for the motion. that they have been disloyal to their party. I am merely suggesting that they have done Mr. RUDDOCK: I enjoyed the early something like the sort of action I should part of the speech of the hon. member for have liked to have seen both Government East Hills, which he made last week, pos­ and Opposition members taking when I sibly more than any other speech I have became a member of this House-criticis­ heard since I have been a member of this ing by implication. Parliament. However, he spoiled it today Even at this stage the Minister for Public by saying that possibly the Chief Secretary Works should do the right thing by re­ would be embarrassed if the amendment questing the Premier and his Cabinet col­ were agreed to, because his department is leagues to agree to the amendment that responsible for administering the fishing in­ was moved by the hon. member for dustry. If a commission were established Cronulla. Generally speaking, I do not immediately some persons would have to favour the establishment of boards or com­ do some thinking. Apparently the hon. missions, but on this occasion I lift my member for East Hills considers that at objection, for I am wondering where we this point of time they should be saved are going on this matter of the pollution of from doing that thinking. This is pre­ rivers, foreshores and harbours. I shall cisely what ·the hon. member's remarks not dwell for long on the problems of the meant. The story told by the hon. mem­ Georges River, because I know that some ber for East Hills about a horse floating members of this House are experts on that up and down the Georges River exempli­ stream, for they live along its foreshores and fied his point that there is something wrong represent electorates that adjoin it. How­ in the administration of the departments ever, the Georges River is not what it used concerned in a matter like that. to be. The same may be said of the Parra­ The hon. member said that when he went matta River. I used to swim in the to the Chief Secretary's Department he was Meadowbank baths. Though I did not asked: "Is the horse a fish? Has it got learn to swim there-I learnt to swim in fins?" Naturally he replied, "No, it is the Hawkesbury River-I did a lot of swim­ just a dead horse in the river," and the de­ ming in the Meadowbank baths, where there partmental officers countered, "Then we was good, clean, salty river water. The cannot deal with it." Would not any hon. baths have gone now, and so have all the member expect these officers to say, "Even little pools that people used to have along though there is some slight difficulty over the Parramatta River in the Cabarita­ a definition, apparently nobody is respon­ Drummoyne area. They have gone, never sible for dealing with this matter, so we to return, because the Parramatta River shall concern •ourselves with it"? The same is now a slimy stream covered with the might be said of the Maritime Services refuse of many factories and homes. As Board, whose officers wanted to know the hon. member for East Hills has said, whether the horse had navigation lights, the Parramatta River is nobody's concern, Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962] F oreshares Commission 1123 except that of the people who live along had cuts from rocks which were turning its foreshores-those who used to enjoy it septic faster than usual or some illness, but no longer can, because it is not the sore, or infection which had stemmed from sort of river that they and we should like the fact that they had bathed at Bobbin it to be. Head. I know that this is not good for the trust but sooner than let the matter pro­ Mr. CRABTREE: It is a sewer. ceed to the point where pollution prevents swimming at Bobbin Head, a commission Mr. RUDDOCK: As the bon. member should be appointed to do something. We for Kogarah says, it has become a sewer. as parliamentarians have a responsibility in I rose to speak not so much about the this matter. Parramatta River or the Georges River ; the damage is done there. I am concerned I come now to the question of drainage with what will happen to the Lane Cove from areas in my electorate to the Hawkes­ River. I am a trustee of the Lane Cove bury River, through Berowra Waters. I National Park Trust and I know that the have referred to this before. Every stream organisation is worried about the pollution or rivulet that starts in the Hornsby, Thorn­ appearing in the Lane Cove River. The leigh or Dural area finally runs through a trust discusses this problem at its meetings. series of creeks to Berowra Waters. Only The pollution comes from the Hornsby two months ago Hornsby council served shire, the Ryde municipality and the six notices on factories in the Duffy Ku-ring-gai municipality, but it is no one's A venue area for polluting streams which concern, except the trust, which discusses lead direct to Berowra Waters. The Min­ the problem with the local-government ister for Child Welfare and Social Welfare authority. Some single authority must be is building a fine girls' home at Thornleigh. established whose task it will be to do I have taken up with him by correspon­ something definite about preventing pollu­ dence the fact that it is proposed to drain tion of our rivers and streams. That is sullage water from the home into one of the why I ask that this commission be streams leading to Berowra Waters. In other established. words the easy way out is to drain sullage For some time I was a trustee of Ku­ water and effluent into one of the creeks ring-gai Chase. I know that the trust was or rivulets until finally the pollution reaches worried about what was happening at Berowra Waters and makes its way into Bobbin Head. Anyone who knows any­ the Hawkesbury River. The Hawkesbury thing of that area will agree that sewage River system is one of the beauty spots of from Hornsby, which goes to a treatment the world. Fancy polluting this wonderful works, finally runs into Cowan Creek at river system. It has been done already to Bobbin Head. One would not have to the Georges River and 'the Parramatta stand long at the top of Cowan Creek at River ; pollution is beginning to foul the Bobbin Head to realise what was happen­ Lane Cove River. I understand that Cook's ing. One's two eyes would confirm that River is in the same plight and now we sewage is in fact running into the water at are seeing it happen to the Hawkesbury Bobbin Head. I shall continue to go to River. Bobbin Head for picnics but I would no The answer to the problem lies in sewer­ longer swim there and I would not advise age reticulation. I compliment the hon. any parent to allow a child to swim there member for Blacktown-a Government sup­ until such a commission as envisaged by porter. While I am a member of this House the motion does something a bout pollution I shall always be ready to compliment any in our rivers and estuaries. About two hon. member opposite who brings forward years ago I had occasion to visit the a worthy suggestion. The hon. member casualty ward at Hornsby Hospital on a for Blacktown beat me to the punch at ques­ Monday morning and I saw waiting there tion time and many people commented on six or seven people who had been to Bob­ that fact. He received the call and pointed bin Head over the week-end. Those six out that the Metropolitan Water Sewerage or seven people to whom I spoke that day and Drainage Board will spend almost 1124 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission

£5,000,000-I understand it will be for failing to take the action that it should £8,000,000 before it is finished-in building have taken long ago. Here is an oppor­ a huge edifice in Pitt Street, Sydney, when tunity, when hon. members on both sides sewerage services are badly needed in of the House are pointing out the urgency Blacktown, Hornsby and The Hills district, and importance of the problem, for the as well as many other places in the Sydney Government to take some remedial action. metropolitan area. The lack of sewerage is the main cause of pollution of our rivers Mr. DALTON (Sutherland) [3.57]: I and streams. support the motion moved by the hon. member for Kogarah. Indeed, a commis­ Hon. members were told that the water sion should have been appointed some years board claimed to need the extra space for ago. My constituents and I have been con­ offices so that it could employ more men cerned for some time with what is happen­ to draw more plans so that in future years ing in the Georges River. We fear that Sydney could have more sewerage. I went because of pollution it may become impos­ down to the water board with a tape mea­ sible to swim or fish anywhere in the river. sure and measured out the distance between A few months ago my constituents on the some of the desks. The officers there have Woronora River were concerned about the plenty of room. If they cannot work with dead fish floating up and down this beau­ their desks situated as they are at the water tiful river. We were of the opinion at the board, they are not trying. The Jack of time that the cause of death of these fish sewerage is closely linked with pollution of was the discharge of waste from the atomic rivers and waterways. We must have sewer­ reactor at Lucas Heights. My federal col­ age and the money must be allocated for league, Mr. Len Johnson, brought this this work. We do not need the expenditure matter to the notice of the authorities in of £5,000,000 or £8,000,000 on a new build­ the federal sphere. ing for more people to gather even more Mr. Johnson, M.H.R., said that the Aus­ people around them, as happens in the tralian Atomic Energy Commission had in­ bureaucratic system. I compliment the bon. vestigated after he had reported dead fish member for Blacktown; I am with him. and water discoloration near the Lucas We want sewerage installation in our dis­ Heights atomic reactor effluent discharge tricts instead of big buildings in Pitt Street. areas. An atomic and radioactive analysis Once sewerage is provided most of our of the effluent had established no connec­ problems of river pollution will go. tion between the discharge and pollution. However, not all our problems will The commission said that the discharge vanish once sewer lines are installed. We material could not produce discoloration still have the problem of the disposal of or pollution. The discoloration of the river sewage and effluent and the effects on the was attributed to clay and mud washed seashore and beaches. This is where the down after heavy rain from the upper motion of the hon. member for Kogarah reaches of the Woronora River. Neverthe­ comes in. He suggests the appointment of less, the Atomic Energy Commission asked a commission to prevent pollution of our the Superintendent of Fisheries to make his beaches. I should say that the House would own investigations, and he reported that the be grateful if the hon. member for Kogarah, waste from the reactor was not the cause of as the mover of the motion, would accept the pollution and death of the fish that are the amendment. If he does not do so I shall to be seen floating up and down the river. never cease to remind him, if the motion is The hon. member for Kogarah pointed carried but the commission is not set up, out that the Government Analyst, Mr. E. S. that he had a bright idea yet failed to Ogg, had said that the Georges River was follow it up. He will stand condemned the most polluted waterway in the Sydney for ever if the commission is not appointed. I promise him all the support that I can area, and had suggested that a single autho­ give on this important problem that he has rity controlling all waterways was needed brought to the attention of the Government. to prevent river pollution. He also said that The Government itself stands condemned the Georges River had become so polluted Mr. Ruddock] Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962) Foreshores Commission 1125 by sewage treatment, drains from indus­ The spread of civilisation has also added to the problem of estuary pollution by increasing trial and residential areas and garbage enormously the amount of storm and drainage dumping that it was a menace to public water channelled into the estuaries from health. Mr. Ogg blamed areas upstream catchment areas which grow bigger and bigger for the pollution of the river, and said that as settlement spreads. the situation was so bad that eels, which The sad result is that places which had could usually resist the effects of pollution, sandy beaches not so many years ago now have rotten mud flats. had been killed by it. He said that the Three big storm drains empty into one small biggest single source of pollution was the bay of Port Hacking alone, huge quantities of Fairfield sewage works on Orphan School mud brought from many miles of countryside Creek. and a former sand flat, now a mud flat, is spreading into the deep water at a rapid rate. That was the report of Mr. Ogg, and I Fouling of boats on moorings in this area suggest that it should be given prompt atten­ is so bad that some owners believe the mud in tion by the Department of Health. I sug­ the water after rain covers the anti-fouling gest that the authorities should at once paint with a garden bed for weeds and slime. consider establishing a statutory body, as re­ It is all very well for councils and the quested in the original motion. I was Water Board to use estuaries as the solution to their drainage problems but they would also concerned to read a leading article in quickly shed responsibility for clearing up the the St. George and Sutherland Shire Leader resultant mess, although they, and not the of Thursday, 5th April, 1962. It reads: Maritime Services Board, collect the rates from properties affected. The recent closure of swimming baths in Still, the time is fast approaching when some the Bankstown area of the Georges River be­ authority will have to take notice of the danger. cause of pollution from industrial waste and sewage has drawn attention to a problem that I suggest that leader is completely convinc­ has been causing concern for some time and will soon have to be faced. ing and that the statements made in it should weigh heavily in the setting up of a statu­ Too many people, firms, and organisations are using the waterways of the metropolitan tory body to prevent water pollution. There area as garbage dumps and septic tanks, and is a great need for a single authority. I too many councils, and the Water Board, see believe that the discharge of household de­ estuaries as the easy way out of their drainage tergents into the Georges River is one of the problems. greatest factors in the pollution of the river. No sewage should be allowed to enter any Detergents flow into the sewerage system river, creek or estuary and no factory should be allowed to empty or discharge waste matter and from there they are pumped out to the into a nearby waterway. river, where they have a deleterious effect The president of the Sutherland Shire Coun­ on fish life. I have been told that an officer cil (Cr. A. T. Gietzelt) admits pollution of of the Metropolitan Water Sewerage and Georges River is so bad that the famous Drainage Board said that the fish were not Georges River oyster industry may be extinct affected by detergents, but Mr. Whitley, within a few years. curator of the fisheries section of the Aus­ Hundreds of people fish in Cooks River every week, despite notices on the Kyeemagh tralian Museum, has said that household bridge prohibiting fishing, blissfully unaware detergents in sufficient quantities would that the main reason for banning fishing is possibly kill fish, and the marine life on because of pollution in the river and Shea's which they feed. There is only one re­ Creek. deeming factor in the pollution of the Nobody in their right senses would swim in Georges River. I have often pointed out Shea's Creek or Cooks River, although there is no reason why these waterways should not to the Minister for Transport and the Com­ be kept clean enough for swimming. missioner for Railways the necessity to build With sewage overflow finding its way into a new high-level railway bridge at Como. rivers and estuaries in addition to factory waste and storm water, some might be excused I have informed them that the present bridge for wondering if there is any link with the is dangerous. high incidence of hepatitis. How many waterfront premises in Port Mr. LEWIS: On a point of order. While Hacking and Georges River empty kitchen and we are all interested to hear the hon. mem­ bathroom waste water directly into the estuary water? ber's opinion about the need for a new 1126 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission high-level railway bridge at Como, I sub­ Mr. DALTON: In 1953 the Minister for mit that this has no relation to the motion Health approved of conferences between of the hon. member for Kogarah or the representatives of the Department of amendment now before the House. Public Health and a number of departments Mr. DALTON: I intend to link this up and authorities to consider the pollution of with the matter of water pollution. streams. I have before me a report of those conferences. A number of meetings Mr. H. E. JACKSON: Mr. Deputy were held and a report was submitted to Speaker-- the Minister recommending the introduction Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I shall of legislation to control pollution. It was hear what the hon. member for Sutherland considered that the legislation should pro­ has to say on the point of order. vide for an advisory council to advise and make recommendations to the Minister con­ Mr. DALTON: I intended to link this up cerning pollution of our waterways. It was with the matter of the pollution of the recommended that a committee, similar to Georges River. that which had been functioning, be set up Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: In that case the to advise the Minister on the proposed hon. member may proceed. legislation. The committee referred to the Waters Pollution Act, 1953, of New Zea­ Mr. DALTON: The only redeeming land, and suggested that in any legislation feature in the pollution of the Georges appertaining to wate-rways in this State, River is that it might speed up the con­ waters should be defined in a similar man­ struction of a new Como railway bridge. ner, namely: The pollution in the river will help to "Waters" means any river, stream, lake, hasten the decay of the old Como bridge, natural or artificial water course, bay, gulf, and therefore we may Iook forward to a harbour, or other waters within the territorial new one being built more quickly. I under­ limits of New Zealand, and includes Under­ stand that in 1959 the Minister for Health ground or artesian waters. agreed that a conference should be held The report was accepted by the Minister, between representatives-- who recommended its acceptance by the Mr. H. E. JACKSON: On 'the point of Government. The- matter was referred by order. the Premier to the Treasurer, the Chief Secretary and the Ministers for Public Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Which point of Works, Lands, Mines, Conservation, Agri­ order? culture and Local Government. Although Mr. H. E. JACKSON: On the point of there was ge-neral agreement that additional order raised by the bon. member for Wol­ co-ordination was required in this problem, londilly some time ago. some doubt was expressed about the neces­ sity for legislative action or establishment Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The original point of an additional authority. In view of this, of order has been disposed of. We are not the Premier suggest,eod to the Minister that, dealing with it now. instead of establishing a statutory authority, Mr. H. E. JACKSON: Some time ago the the position might be met by the appoint­ hon. member for Wollondilly raised a point ment, within the Minister's administration, of a standing committee consisting of repre­ of order on which you said you would ad­ judicate after you had heard the bon. mem­ sentatives of the departments concerned ber for Sutherland in reply. Will you make to act as a co-ordinating body and to advise that adjudication now or will you hear and recommend what action should be further argument? taken to ensure more effective implementa­ tion of existing controls. The Premier Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member for Sutherland said he intended to added that in the light of experience of the link up his remarks, which he immediately operations of such a committee, legislative did. There was no discussion on the action could be taken subsequently if it matter. were shown to be advisable. Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962] Foreshores Commission 1127 Accordingly, in July, 1961, the Minister the committee that was set up in 1953. invited a number of departments and au­ The committee said that it could not come thorities to nominate representatives to the to any firm decision. Any decision of the standing committee to be appoi·nted to act committee could not be acted upon if it as a co-ordinating body, and to advise and were not agreed to by all government de­ recommend what action should be taken to partments and responsible authorities ensure more effective implementation of concerned. existing controls relating to pollution of Mr. CRABTREE: Even those bodies repre­ streams and natural watercourses in the sented on the committee. State. Representatives were nominated by the following departments and authorities: Mr. DALTON: That is so. It soon be­ Chief Secretary's Department; Department came obvious that matters referring to of Agriculture ; Department of Mines ; De·­ pollution of streams came under two main partment of Public Works ; Water Conser­ headings-alleviation of existing pollution, vation and Irrigation Commission; Depart­ and prevention or control of future pollu­ ment of Local Government ; Metropolitan tion. As an example of the former, one Water Sewerage and Drainage Board ; can consider the condition of the Georges Maritime Services Board ; Hunter District River, which is heavily polluted from a WateT Board ; Premier's Department ; and number of sources. These sources of pol­ Department of Lands. lution can be controlled, but to achieve The Minister appointed Dr. E. S. A. this, it is necessary for a number of Meyers, Director of State Health Services, authorities, including local authorities, to as chairman of the committee. Information take appropriate action. This is a classic relating to the setting up of the com­ example of divided control, which has re­ mittee and its functions was sent by cir­ sulted in no control whatever. We have cular to all government departments and a divided control of our rivers and water­ other authorities, and also by the Depart­ ways throughout the State. ment of Local Government to local authori­ It is my earnest opinion that the motion ties. The comm'ittee met a number of moved by the hon. member for Kogarah times to consider various matters referred should have the support of every mem­ to it. At an early meeting, it appointed a ber of this House. The Minister for Health technical subcommittee. Although the is gravely concerned about water pollu­ committee was able to offer advice on tion. A statutory body, if set up, should specific problems referred to it, the depart­ be under his direct control. I com­ ments and authorities concerned could mend the motion to the House, and either accept or reject it. Even if the advice the hon. member for Kogarah for mov­ were acceptable, it appears that this mode ing it. I hope that when this statutory of action would have no appreciable effect body is set up we shall no longer hear on the problem of water pollution. stories such as that related by the hon. member for East Hills of a dead horse The Division of Industrial Development floating up and down Salt Pan Creek for referred to the committee for consideration six or seven weeks. The hon. member several problems concerning disposal of made inquiries about this matter, but none industrial wastes. After careful considera­ of the authorities he approached wanted to tion by the technical subcommittee and have anything to do with it. A statutory subsequently by the standing committee, all body to look after these matters is essential. that could be done was to ref::r the final opinion to the Division of Industrial De­ Mr. LEWIS (Wollondilly) [4.20]: The velopment, pointing out in each instance only additional matter that the hon. mem­ that approval of other authorities was es­ ber for Sutherland has introduced is the sential before any firm decision could be suggestion that the proposed commission be made. [Quorum formed.] I have pointed under the ministerial control of the Minis­ out how necessary it is to set up a statutory ter for Health. I heartily agree with that body to control pollution of waterways, and proposal, but perhaps the Minister for I have given an outline of the findings of Health has already too many problems on 1128 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission his plate and it would be better to spread represented the area for the past fifteen the load by placing the commission under years. It is shocking that the previous the control of the Minister for Conserva­ parliamentary representative has never tion. raised this matter. At the first available Though the hon. member for Sutherland opportunity since I have represented the said that he supported the motion moved area, I have brought the difficulty to the by the bon. member for Kogarah, his argu­ notice of Parliament. It is a reflection on ments support the amendment moved by the the Labor Party that no action has been bon. member for Cronulla, who pressed taken by any of its members to combat for the immediate establishment of a com­ the pollution in this great Lake Illawarra missiOn. The claim by the bon. member area. for Sutherland that pollution is destroying Between Windang and Lake Illawarra the railway bridge at Como demonstrates South is a magnificent area that has been the urgency of the problem. The Govern­ affected by erosion. Recently a represen­ ment has done nothing towards the building tative of the Minister for Lands and I of a new bridge. The Liberal Party has visited Lake Illawarra South, together with for years been urging the replacement of representatives from the Shellharbour the Como railway bridge, and we are most Municipal Council. We examined the land worried by the Government's unwillingness to see whether, with the help of the to improve the rail service to the important Government and local government, a Wollongong-South Coast areas. What are­ magnificent recreation area could be created flection on the Government, when one of close to the heart of Wollongong. We are its members has the audacity to rise in this vitally concerned with the Lake Illawarra House and suggest that the bridge might South area, and it ill behoves the hon. fall down because of pollution in the member for Kogarah to criticise an hon. Georges River. If the Como bridge is so member who has represented the area for dangerous, people should not be travelling only a brief period when he brings the over it. matter before the House, especially after As a member of the Labor Party, the his colleagues have done nothing during hon. member for Sutherland should have the many years that they have represented a voice in government and urge his sug­ this great district. gestions in caucus, instead of wasting the Mr. CRABTREE: That is no excuse for not time of this House by debating the silly bringing it up earlier. suggestions that he has made this afternoon. Hon. members are well aware of the diffi­ Mr. LEWIS: Another matter that gives culties created by pollution in South Coast me concern is what is happening to the areas. Only recently the South Coast rivers that flow through part of my elec­ Times and the Illawarra Mercury invited torate-the Kangaroo River and the great attention to the pollution of Lake Illawarra, Shoalhaven River, which represents part into which flows the residue from the Talla­ of the boundary between my electorate and warra power house. Of course, other the electorate of South Coast. drainage pollution flows into that lake. Mr. MALLAM: The hon. member is jump­ Mr. CRABTREE: The hon. member has ing about a bit. never before raised this matter in this Mr. LEWIS: The hon. member for Dul­ House. He has waited for me to raise it. wich Hill has been on the hot seat more Shame! than once. The Kangaroo River, which is Mr. LEWIS: I am pleased that the bon. a tributary of the Shoalhaven River, passes member for Kogarah has made that inter­ through inaccessible country in my elec­ jection. I have represented that area for only the past few months, and I have not torate. The local people are concerned mentioned the matter previously because with safeguarding the whole watershed of decency would not allow me to discuss the the Kangaroo River. I am using the Kan­ electoral matters of the hon. member who garoo River as an example, for I believe Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962) Fore shores Commission 1129 that watersheds generally should be con­ Yerrinbool. This is the advice given by the trolled. In the United States of America board to the Minister for Local Govern­ many areas have been set aside under a ment on controlling the size of these vil­ controlling authority similar to the Hunter lages, due to the danger of erosion and Valley Conservation Trust. The authority pollution of the Warragamba Dam catch­ takes over not merely a section of the fore­ ment area and ultimately, of course, to the shores, harbours or watersheds, but the dam itself which supplies Sydney's water. whole box and dice. It ensures the preser­ It reads: vation and fertility of the land by enforc­ As the Village of Balmoral is on the Picton ing good farming and conservation methods, Catchment Area close to a stream flowing into and proper attention is given to the fore­ the main storage, further residential develop­ ment should not be permitted; neither should shores and river banks to prevent erosion. further subdivision or development be allowed The time has arrived in Australia when on the non-urban area adjoining. an advisory trust should be clothed with The Village of Hill Top is almost entirely within the Picton Catchment Area, and the powers to resume land and to deal with Board requests restrictions on any further resi­ landowners. I do not favour a govern­ dential development or non-urban development ment authority, but unless something is on that Catchment Area. done we shall never control erosion and The Village of Yerrinbool is comparatively pollution of our streams and rivers. Aus­ large in area, and the Board considers that a large number of residences should not be per­ tralia has a small margin of fertile land mitted on either the Nepean or the Picton and a low rainfall. Therefore, we must, Catchment Areas, and that non-urban areas as soon as possible, examine in our catch­ in the vicinity should not be further developed. ment areas this matter of controlling I do not agree with all this. It is carrying erosion, maintaining fertility and improving the matter too far. fertility. The forestry authorities can play a part by advising how run-off or ernsion Mr. CRABTREE: That covers only the should be controlled in watershed areas. catchment area. What about the lower por­ The Department of Conservation can play tions? a part, for its experts could advise farmers Mr. LEWIS: I am making the speech. and landholders on these matters. Indeed, I have had just about enough interjections officers of the department should be located from the hon. member for Kogarah. The in watershed areas to give advice on the board has done an excellent job. One of best methods of preserving soil, avoiding the greatest dangers to dam systems any­ pollution, and preventing erosion. Until where in the. world, but particularly in this is done, there will be trouble. The Australia, is silting, and this is recognised Metropolitan Water Sewerage and Drain­ fully by other authorities including the age Board has done much to control erosion. Academy of Science, which gave advice on I believe that it has gone too far. In my the siting of the Snowy Mountains scheme, electorate-- and the commissioner of the Snowy Moun­ Mr. CRABTREE: The hon. member is tains scheme, Sir William Hudson. These lucky that the board has done something authorities realise that it is not much good in his electorate. spending many millions of pounds building a dam if, after two or three years, it will Mr. LEWIS: The catchment area in my silt up and lose its capacity, ultimately electorate supplies the city of Sydney with damaging the dam unless the silt is its water, which comes from the Nepean, regularly pumped out. To avoid this danger Cataract, Avon and Warragamba dams. the Snowy Mountains Authority has taken The Metropolitan Water Sewerage and every possible precaution, and I believe con­ Drainage Board controls the tremendous troversy still rages in caucus about the catchment area of 560,000 acres. Only to­ stocking of the catchment areas on the day I received a letter from the board Snowy Mountains area. Hon. members will discussing proposals by the Department of recall that all stocking above an altitude Local Government to control the size of the of 4,500 feet was banned. With other hon. villages of Balmoral, Hill Top and members here and with representatives 1130 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission from the Snow Leases Occupiers Associa­ money so expended would be more than tion I have visited the areas that were justified by the pleasure that would accrue under consideration at that time. Contro­ to many thousands of persons using the versy persists about stocking some areas Royal National Park, Warragamba Dam that are still under consideration. and other. catchment areas as recreation The Metropolitan Water Sewerage and areas, and the dam itself for water ski-ing, Drainage Board has done a good job pre­ fishing, speed boat racing, sailing and the venting erosion and pollution of its catch­ like. ment areas, but some other authority should Mr. CRABTREE: What about the effect of determine where· this practice should stop. all this on the lower portions? The hon. Here are three very small villages. None is member has been up in the bush all the of any great size; only Yerrinbool and Hill time. Top have a school. They are three small villages and each would have an average of Mr. LEWIS: The last person from whom twenty or thirty residents. In this letter the I would seek assistance in making a speech Metropolitan Water Sewerage and Drainage in this Chamber would be the hon. mem­ Board is taking action, before any large ber for Kogarah. I ask him to restrain development is contemplated, to prevent himself until he can exercise his right of any development. That means stagnation. reply. Meanwhile, I intend to make my When I convey the information in this letter speech. It is no good worrying about the to the Mittagong Shire Council I shall sug­ lower stretches of the river or the lower gest, as I do now, that a conference portion of any catchment area, for pollu­ be called between residents of the area and tion starts where the water runs off. the Minister for Local Government to dis­ cuss the establishment of a base village Mr. HEARNSHAW: At the source. area, without limiting the size of the exist­ Mr. LEWIS: Yes. The hon. member for ing villages to their present areas. Of Kogarah is worried about the Georges course, the board, in its wisdom, is fear­ River. There would not be any erosion ful lest some great expansion should affect of that river if it were not created by the the run-off and the arrangements that have run-off up top. If that can be controlled, been made to prevent erosion in the Warra­ as has been done by the Snowy Moun­ gamba and Picton catchment areas. tains Authority within its area, half the Europe has had this problem for many problem is solved. years. Two years ago I wrote to the Mr. CRABTREE: What nonsense! German and French embassies, the High Commissioner for the United Kingdom, and Mr. LEWIS: The hon. member should the Ambassador from the United States of look at some of our rivers. His colleagues America for information about the use of in caucus have not elected him Minister water catchment areas in their countries for Conservation. When they have done for sport and recreation areas. I felt so he can come back and speak to us on strongly that the water board should spend the subject. The Minister for Lands, who more money to convert its dams into is now at the table, will agree that the recreation areas for aquatic sports; alterna­ most vital part of this motion urging the tively or additionally, that the immediate establishment of a .commission concerns surrounding area should be made into a control of the upper reaches of all rivers. national park. I have made that sugges­ tion before in the House. The board has Mr. CRABTREE: All portions of ·the stated that the cost of turning Warragamba rivers. Dam into a recreation area and treating Mr. LEWIS: The upper reaches are most the water would be beyond its capacity. important. I am not negating the impor­ There is no need to treat the water while tance of the lower portions, but the run­ it remains a catchment area, but if it were off area is of primary importance. converted to a recreation area, this would become necessary. I am convinced that the Mr. HEARNSHAW: The source of danger. Mr. Lewis] Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962] Foreshores Commission 1131 Mr. LEWIS: Yes. This problem has con­ Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I sug­ cerned the people of Europe for many years gest that the hon. member for Wollondilly and, as I have said, I wrote to various link up his remarks with the terms of the embassies to find out what had been done motion and that he does not continue with in their countries. In recent times many that line of argument. conferences on the subject have been called throughout Europe. Those hon. members Mr. LEWIS: Very well, Mr. Deputy who have visited the countries of Europe Speaker. Countries in Europe and various States of the United States of America have know that small streams are often the been concerned about this problem. They cause of pollution of local water supplies, have not all agreed upon a solution, and for which the local authority seems to have there have been differences of opinion be­ no stock treatment. Whether the people are tween federal departments that are respon­ able to overcome the effect of the pollu­ sible for the prevention of pollution and tion in their water supply because it has silting, though a lot of work has been done been there all the time, going back genera­ by American army engineers in this field. tions, I do not know ; but the fact is that I could have framed the motion a little in Europe today much money is being better than the hon. member for Kogarah, spent to treat the water in new major water­ but if the House agrees to the amendment supply systems. At the same time, if the moved by the hon. member for Cronulla approaches are suitable, the water in dams and agreed to by the hon. member for is being treated to permit aquatic sport and Sutherland-- the development of recreation areas. That is a lesson that we can learn from Europe Mr. DALTON: That is not true. and the United States of America. Many dams in the United States, especially Mr. LEWIS: The hon. member for those established for irrigation purposes, Sutherland said in the House just before are used for aquatic sports. I compliment I stood up to speak that the suggested com­ the Government for what it has done in mission should be set up immediately, which this direction with some dams-notably accords with the amendment moved by the Glenbawn Dam, near Scone. hon. member for Cronulla. The primary duty of the commission, when established, Mr. CRABTREE: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I should be to control all watersheds because take the point of order that the motion unless it does that its control of harbours, before the House deals with pollution and rivers and foreshores will be worthless. silting. The hon. member for Wollondilly Mr. CRoss: That is being done on the is now expanding an argument that dams Snowy Mountains. should be used for aquatic sports, and I Mr. LEWIS: Yes, and by the Metro­ submit that it is totally irrelevant. politan Water Sewerage and Drainage Mr. LEWIS: On the point of order. We Board, too. Unless the commission con­ must control erosion in the upper reaches trols catchment areas its establishment will be meaningless. There are many examples of our rivers to prevent the lower portions of the control of catchment areas. Authori­ from becoming silted, and unless dams are ties in the United States of America are built, as this Government has been trying worried about the effects of chemical sprays, to do for many years-- including weedicides that are washed off in heavy rain, that enter the streams and kill Mr. HEARNSHAW: For this very purpose. fish. The American Food and Drug Ad­ Mr. LEWIS: Yes, for this very purpose­ ministration is considering whether the use it will be useless to try to control silting of weedicides should be strictly controlled. This matter would have to be considered in estuaries. Therefore, I submit that I by any similar organisation established am in order in discussing the building of here. Another of its responsibilities should dams to control erosion in catchment areas be the control of quarrying in streams. and on watersheds. About three or four years ago this was 1132 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission controlled by the Minister for Mines, and company. Our wives had to do the wash­ warden's courts refused perm1sswn to ing with muddy water. No hon. member quarrying companies to remove sand and from the city would like to turn on the gravel from rivers. The Government then tap and find muddy water running from it. decided in its wisdom-though my colleagues Before we could use the water for wash­ and I felt that it was far from wise-to put ing or drinking it had to be allowed to this matter under the control of the De­ settle. I appreciate that after heavy rain partment of Lands, which was given the water in dams becomes dirty, but the authority to grant permissive occupancies pollution of the water in the Nepean has for this purpose. A warden's course refused been caused by man and authorised by the to entertain an application to quarry in the Government. Nepean River on a farm that I once owned. Mr. HEARNSHAW: How long did it con­ However, the Government changed the law tinue? while the matter was being considered by the court, and when control was transferred Mr. LEWIS: It is still happening. Ever to the Department of Lands a permissive since the matter was taken out of the hands occupancy was granted. Will the Harbours, of the Minister for Mines and responsibility Rivers and Foreshores Commission, to be given to the Department of Lands for set up as a result of the motion by the hon. granting permissive occupancies, to over­ member for Kogarah, have control of these come the objection of the warden's court permissive occupancies granted by the De­ to the granting of quarrying licences, this partment of Lands? If it does not, it will problem has continued. not be a bit of use. The permissive occu­ pancy to quarry in the Nepean River should The Minister for Agriculture and Min­ never have been granted. ister for Conservation will appreciate that when a farmer is pumping water for his Mr. CoMPTON: What harm has it done? stock nothing worse can happen than to Mr. LEWIS: That is a good question. find that his pump is full of sand and as Other farmers and I use that water for a result the packing glands have been de­ domestic purposes, for stock and for irri­ stroyed. He has to dismantle the pump gation, under licences granted to us by the and clean out the sand, repack 'the glands Water Conservation and Irrigation Com­ and reassemble it. This is caused by mission. quarrying, acts of men. I have answered fully the interjection by the Minister for Mr. RENSHAW: The amendment moved Lands and have explained why we object by an hon. member of the Opposition ad­ to quarrying companies being granted per­ vocate·s that the commission should be set missive occupancies. One of the most beau­ up immediately ; but the motion is that tiful spots on the Nepean River has been consideration should be given to the matter, destroyed. The Deputy Premier, Treasurer so that all these problems can be investi­ and Minister for Industrial Development and gated. Decentralisation has a friend who is living Mr. LEWIS: The Deputy Premier is the there now. most consistent interjector in the House, Mr. RENSHAW: He cannot help that he yet he never makes a speech. All he does is living next door to the hon. member. is chip, chip, chip, like a chipmunk. He never stops. I suggest that, like a chip­ Mr. LEWIS: He bought my former home munk, he should get back in his burrow and js living there now. Instead of looking and let us not hear from him again this out on a beautiful island set in a natural afternoon. I was attempting to answer the stream, the Nepean, he sees huge, fright­ intelligent interjection by my good friend fully noisy machines digging up the sand the Minister for Lands, who asked what and gravel, and 'taking it away from the damage had been done by quarrying in the river. Old-timers tell me that they used Nepean. My neighbours and I use the to ford the river, when it was low, to get on water from that str·eam, and it was dis­ to this beautiful island to hold their picnic coloured by the activities of the quarrying races. This island has now been completely Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962] Foreshores Commission 1133 destroyed, mainly by the acts of men. There that Australia's heritage is at stake. We are have been floods. I have experienced some short of water and fertile soil and the pro­ very big floods, when I have had to get up posed commission must have some authority at four o'clock on a cold winter's morning to prevent this great wastage of water and and stand up to my knees in water trying drop in fertility that is occurring at this to undo the nuts on the bolts holding down moment on our river catchment areas. the pump. Again, these floods were man­ made. I am referring to a time before the Mr. ENTICKNAP (Murrumbidgee), construction of the Warragamba Dam. An Minister for Agriculture and Minister for extraordinary number of trees, fence posts Conservation [4.55]: I maintain that it is and all sorts of refuse floated down the quite easy to see that the hon. member for nver. Wollondilly does not know what is being done in this State today. He has referred One can forget about solving the problem to the Snowy Mountains catchment area. unless one has control of the catchment. He does not know that in New South Wales Tree planting must be done and soil con­ we have the Catchment Protection Board, servation practices instituted to prevent of which I am chairman. This body in­ a quick run-off of the water. This is one cludes representatives of the ministries of reason why the Snowy Mountains Hydro­ Lands, Agriculture and Conservation, the electric Authority did not want stock Water Conservation and Irrigation Commis­ pastured on the highlands. They did not sion, and the Public Works Department. want the graziers to burn off all the land This Catchment Protection Board has the so that fresh, sweet grass would grow on job of looking after the catchment areas which their sheep and cattle could graze. of which the hon. member for Wollondilly That authority wanted to maintain the has spoke'n at great length. overgrowth so that the snow that fell on the peaks would not melt immediately and Mr. LEWIS: That board cannot compel run off. Instead, where there were 'trees, people to do things. the snow would be held. There are no Mr. ENTICKNAP: We can compel trees on the higher parts but there is an them under legislation, which I adminis­ undergrowth or mat of ferns and other tered. We have more than compelled them; species of growth. This retards the melting we have resumed the land of owners who of the snow. It melts slowly and in the were not carrying out their job. We have late summer finds it way into the dams. taken over these properties, fenced them, This is the reason for the introduction of rabbit-proofed them and protected them conservation measures and why the Snowy from the depredations of other pests. We Mountains Hydro-electric Authority suggests have also planted trees over a wide area in that no stock be depastured, especially in New South Wales. The hon. member for 'the high parts of the Australian Alps, Wollondilly spoke about the Warragamba which serve as the catchment area for the catchment area. May I tell him that the great dams being constructed for the Snowy Metropolitan Water Sewerage and Drain­ Mountains Hydro-electric Authority. age Board is now, in conjunction with the I repeat that the proposed commission Soil Conservation Service, carrying out ex­ should be set up immediately, as suggested tensive works on the catchment areas. by the hon. member for Cronulla. Unless the commission can extend the catchment Mr. LEWIS: I said that. area we shall not overcome flooding and Mr. ENTICKNAP: No, the hon. mem­ erosion. It is time that we set up trusts, ber did not. The hon. member condemned like the Hunter Valley Conservation Trust, the Government and the Metropolitan clothed with authority to compel people to Water Sewerage and Drainage Board for take appropriate action. I would be the not doing these things. last person, either as a Liberal or an indi­ vidual, to suggest that we should give more Mr. LEWIS: I congratulated the Metro­ power to any government or authority to politan Water Sewerage and Drainage compel people to do things, but I believe Board upon its work. 1134 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission Mr. ENTICKNAP: The Metropolitan Mr. ENTICKNAP: I know that. Any Water Sewerage and Drainage Board is river, even the Murray, in its upper reaches doing this work and the Ministry of Con­ is a small stream. What is the use of say. servation is assisting. A good deal of plant ing that it is not. The source of the has been purchased and this is being Nepean River is not at Windsor but right actively used in these catchment areas. The up in the mountains. Water Conservation and Irrigation Com­ mission, and the Soil Conservation Service, Mr. DEANE: No, the Minister does not know his rivers at all. in conjunction with other departments, are doing their utmost to protect the catchment Mr. ENTICKNAP: I am sure that the areas. I agree entirely with this. hon. member does not. Mr. FoRo: Is the Government doing any­ Mr. DEANE: The Minister does not know thing about dredging? where the Nepean begins. Mr. ENTICKNAP: I shall deal with The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ dredging a little later. The Water Con­ ber should allow the Minister to continue servation and Irrigation Commission is his speech. undertaking dredging that will mitigate or control silting. In some ar,eas gravel and Mr. ENTICKNAP: I am not talking sand can in this way be obtained more about one stream. The Conservation De­ cheaply than by quarrying it, and the partment is responsible for the control of taking of gravel and sand is allowed in all rivers above tidal waters. It can inter­ some of our streams. Extensive dredging cede to prevent certain things being done. operations are in progress near Gundagai No board can prevent silting of rivers in and Jugiong. times of major floods. It is not using com­ mon sense to say that a board could con­ Mr. REx JACKSON: Cleaning the trol silting at such times. Big floods occur channels out does not harm the river. in spite of all the precautions that are taken, and when floodwaters move quickly Mr. ENTICKNAP: It is done under downstream they cause erosion of river control. What is the use of saying that it banks. If during a flood the height of a is not done under control. river rises suddenly, and then there is an equally sudden fall in the river height, Mr. LEWIS: What about the Nepean River? naturally the river bank starts to collapse. This is one of the reasons why Blowering Mr. ENTICKNAP: I am not arguing Dam is so badly needed. about the little stream at your back door. One of our greatest problems is caused I do not know anything about it. by water running through Tl and T2 Mr. LEWis: We are talking about the power stations. When water is permitted Nepean River. to run through both power stations, there is a sudden rise in the river downstream. Mr. ENTICKNAP: Does the hon. mem­ Then, when the power stations are shut ber know the Nepean River from one end down in the off-peak periods, the river to the other? falls. The sudden fall in river level causes part of the bank to slide into the river. Mr. DEANE: I do, and the Minister is This is what is known as river-bank erosion. not doing anything about it. I know the The planting of trees, the grassing of river Hawkesbury River, also. banks and other methods used to prevent silting, will not stop erosion occurring when Mr. ENTICKNAP: When the hon. sudden rises and falls of water levels occur member is finished, I shall continue. in rivers. My department is spending hundreds of thousand of pounds a year on Mr. DEANE: The Minister has not erosion prevention. If bon. members travel started. up the Hunter River they will see the Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962] Foreshores Commission 1135 willows and brush that have been planted Mr. ENTICKNAP: I do not know about along the banks and the other work that the Fish River, which comes under the has been done to prevent erosion. control of the Department of Public Works. It provides a water supply for Mr. PUNCH: The department is not urban needs. spending many hundreds of thousands of pounds-only a few thousand pounds. Mr. FORD: And the headwaters of the Macquarie River? Mr. ENTICKNAP: The hon. member for Upper Hunter should know, like any other Mr. ENTICKNAP: If the bon member hon. member of this House, that there is is honest and sincere, he should tell the a Hunter Valley Conservation Trust. House about the trees and grasses my de­ partment has been planting on the banks Mr. PUNCH: That is correct. of rivers in the Dubbo electorate. Mr. ENTICKNAP: My department does Mr. FoRD: I am not talking about that. not spend all the money that is outlaid on erosion prevention. The trust spends Mr. ENTICKNAP: Opposition members thousands of pounds a year, and so does should not pick out a particular river and the Department of Public Works. If the condemn the Government for some short­ hon. member knows the facts, he will agree coming. The bon. member for Dubbo that all these authorities are doing such should not condemn the Government for work along the Hunter River. He should not doing something about a river that know that local councils are spending large comes under the control of an authority sums of money on erosion prevention. He responsible for catchment protection. The should know also that this is a joint enter­ Government is doing a considerable amount prise. of work in connection with river-bank erosion, and it is doing it pretty fast. Mr. PUNCH: That is correct. Mr. DEANE: Are the waters of that river Mr. ENTICKNAP: I know that the hon. to be pumped over the mountain range member for Upper Hunter has been one to bring water to the eastern seaboard? of the most vociferous-! may be wrong in that-in clamouring for the reduction or Mr. FoRD: That is the river. the abandoning of the rate that has been Mr. ENTICKNAP: Which river it that? struck to raise money for the protection of the river bank. I am hearing similar Mr. DEANE: The Fish River. claims from other people. Mr. ENTICKNAP: I shall not argue Mr. PUNCH: Reduce the rate, where? about that. Opposition members pick out one small river in a State where there are Mr. ENTICKNAP: For the Hunter Valley Conservation Trust. many huge rivers, each having erosion prob­ lems of their own. Mr. PUNCH: The Minister has not heard Mr. LEWIS: Let us get back to the from me to that effect. Nepean River. Mr. ENTICKNAP: I said I might be Mr. ENTICKNAP: I do not know about wrong about the bon member, but a any erosion problems of the Fish River clamour is being heard from councils repre­ because it does not come under my control. senting areas on the upper reaches of the It comes under the control of our water Hunter River. That IS why I thought of supply authority, which is a catchment pro­ the bon. member. tection authority. If erosion occurs along the Fish River, the Catchment Protection Mr. PUNCH: My constituency is Board should be most concerned about it. Gloucester. The hon. member for Wollondilly spoke Mr. FORD: What about the upper reaches extensively about the Snowy River. May of the Fish River? I remind him that the catchment board 1136 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] F oreshores Commission recommended the removal of stock above experiments, not just for the feeding of the 4,500 feet level, not the Snowy Moun­ sheep but also for the development of tains Authority? It recommended to the grasses suitable for growing in gullies to Snowy Mountains Authority that it should prevent gully erosion or along river banks do considerable erosion prevention work. to prevent river-bank erosion. My officers I acknowledge that the authority got down have gone extensively into these matters, to tin tacks and did a mighty good job of and some of the grasses they have de­ dealing with the erosion problems of the veloped are being used to control gully area. I do not want to detract from the erosion and river-bank erosion. record of the Snowy Mountains Authority, However, the Snowy Mountains Au­ but Opposition members should not for­ thority went even further than my depart­ get that the work was done in co-operation ment. It sent to New Zealand and found with my department. Indeed, the authority there a wonderful grass for planting on did it at the request of my department. My the sides of the Snowy Mountains. Look officers approached the powers that be and at the clover that the authority brought said, "You will have to do something about from New Zealand and has planted on the erosion." I recall the hon .. member for sides of banks where no other grass would Monaro asking questions in this House dur­ grow. The authority's performance in this ing the early days of the Snowy scheme matter has indeed been creditable. A com­ about the cutting of roads around the hill­ parison of some areas in the Snowy Moun­ sides causing terrific erosion problems. At tains scheme today with the situation there that time-this was years back-the Snowy three years ago shows how much the Mountains Authority was not doing any­ authority has done to prevent erosion. thing about it. When an authority on rivers, an organisation which knew something Mr. CRoss: I have seen what has been about erosion problems, pointed out to the done at Tumbarumba and on the other Snowy Mountains Authority that if it did side of Tumbarumba also. not take appropriate action it would cause Mr. ENTICKNAP: On the other side as terrific damage in the Snowy catchment well. Anywhere there is a possibility of area, it is to the credit of the authority that it got down to tin tacks and spent huge erosion occurring the authority has con­ sidered the best method of preventing it. sums of money on catchment protection. I shall leave the Snowy River now and Mr. DEANE: What was the result of the discuss the situation at Keepit Dam, where inquiries into the trouble at the Menindee the whole of the catchment protection area Lakes storage scheme? comes within the administration of the Department of Conservation. The land Mr. ENTICKNAP: That is an intelligent has been resumed and the former owneTs sort of remark to come from the hon. mem­ of it have been given grazing leases but ber. stocking is regulated. Fences have been erected and trees and grasses have been Mr. DEANE: No, it is a question. planted for the protection of the catchment Mr. ENTICKNAP: I am talking about area. This vast catchment area is situated the Snowy Mountains. I do not think the in open country, where a close watch must Snowy Mountains Authority should inquire be kept on erosion problems. into the catchment problems of the Menin­ Up around Manilla, which is part dee Lakes storage scheme. As I said, the of the Keepit Dam catchment area, the Snowy Mountains Authority has done a settlers have co-operated well with the soil marvellous job in catchment protection conservation officers in attempting to over­ work. It even sent some officers to New come soil erosion problems and to stop the Zealand to search for grasses to plant on silting of the dam. The same applies at the mountainsides in the catchment area Wyangala Dam or indeed any of the catch­ where other grasses would not take. My ment areas. Soil conservation officers are department has research stations scattered working over the whole area at Glenbawn. throughout the State conducting pasture The hon. member for Hawkesbury referred Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962] Foreshores Commission 1137 to the Menindee Lakes storages. This is a is being taken from the river in large quan­ different scheme altogether ; it has no tities a depression is left which can be catchment area near it. The catchment filled with the silt coming downstream. The area for the scheme is on the Dumeresq taking of sand and gravel out of a river River on the border of New South Wales may be doing a service rather than a and Queensland. All the water for the disservice. Menindee Lakes comes down the Darling Mr. DEANE: It is also making a pool for River from that catchment on the border. scouring. The catchment area for Keepit Dam is near the dam. That is a different story and the Mr. ENTICKNAP: The tendency is al­ Department of Conservation carefully ways to blame something of that nature. I watches that area to prevent silting and do not know enough about the matter to other problems. comment but it only stands to reason that Mr. HEARNSHAW: The lakes scheme was if large quantities of gravel and sand are primarily for water storage. taken out of a river a depression is left behind. Gravel and sand being taken from Mr. ENTICKNAP: The Menindee the Murrumbidgee at Gundagai are being Lakes scheme was primarily for water used in concrete and on the roads. The storage to supplement water for South Aus­ removal of the sand and gravel is not hurt­ tralia so that more water from the Hume ing the river ; it is making room for silt Weir and Burrinjuck Dam could be used coming from the upper reaches of the river in New South Wales. It is being used for to fill the depression left behind. Surely that purpose but the bon. member for it would be wrong to stop using the Hawkesbury asked me about catchment valuable sand and gravel freely available protection. The department has no prob­ in the river. If the agregate had to be lems of protection of the catchment at the quarried it would cost shillings a yard more Menindee Lakes scheme ; the catchment for than it costs to dredge it from the river. the scheme is in the upper reaches of the Darling River and its tributaries. It is true Mr. CRABTREE: Huge quantities of sand that we have a catchment protection prob­ could be removed from Botany Bay. lem up there but because no dam has yet Mr. ENTICKNAP: Botany Bay was not been built there the department at the harmed when sand was dredged out to moment faces no big silting problem. The build the Mascot airport, but that is really department has the continuous problem of away from the point. Where it is possible silting of dams. It is noteworthy that that the bottom of the stream or the banks though the Burrinjuck Dam has stood since 1908, silting against the dam walls of the river will be uprooted, allowing is virtually nil. I think it is only about 5 water to get underneath or behind the feet. natural course of the river, careful consid­ Mr. DEANE: When the Minister has eration must be given to the problem of finished speaking about the Menindee Lakes erosion. I do not believe that anyone would he might deal with silting in the Hawkes­ authorise the uprooting of the bottom of bury and Nepean rivers above Richmond. a river by permitting the dredging of sand This area above tidal influence is virtually and gravel to such an extent as would give without a river. It is almost a river of rise to that danger. The Soil Conservation sand. Service and the Water Conservation and Mr. ENTICKNAP: As I said, it is im­ Irrigation Commission would be down on possible to control flooding rivers. a contractor's neck like a bundle of crackers Mr. DEANE: This has come about as a if this problem were to arise. My depart­ result of the operations of gravel quarries. ment has no control of rivers below the Mr. ENTICKNAP: I shall not argue point of tidal influence. The river there that but I doubt whether that statement comes under the control of the Maritime could be correct. Where sand or gravel Services Board. 72 1138 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] F oreshores Commission

I do not intend to delay the House but Mr. WEILEY (Clarence) [5.18]: I wel­ I have heard statements to the effect that come the opportunity to support any move­ the Government is doing nothing about this ment that will help deal with the serious problem of erosion. The Government is problems of silting, pollution and erosion of doing something about erosion on every our harbours, rivers and foreshores. These catchment area in New South Wales. It have for too long been neglected. I am is spending a lot of money. Not one de· especially interested in erosion as this is partment, but three departments are looking the sort of problem to be met on the Clar­ after this type of work. Hon. members ence River in the area that I represent. If should not talk of expenditure by only one erosion had been tackled in its infancy, department in this matter. The water con­ before it became so extensive, it could have servation and the soil conservation depart­ been remedied at small expense. Unfortu­ ments, and the Department of Public nately because it has been neglected by the Works are all contributing to overcome the local authorities and the Government, the problem of erosion. The Government is problem of erosion has now assumed doing a good job and no one should depre­ enormous proportions and the cost of reme­ cate the work that is being done. dial measures will be heavy indeed, almost beyond the resources of the farming com­ The Snowy River catchment is the only munity and the ratepayers of the areas in good catchment area in Australia. It is which erosion has occurred. true that unless it is looked after our big dams fed from the Snowy catchment will At Grafton the erosion has become so silt up. Peat moss, which is the finest bad that although, unfortunately, it was holder of water of all vegetation, grows over not perceptible at first, it is now an actual the whole of the Snowy catchment area. I danger to the city. The erosion of the should advise any hon. member to go to the river banks and the levees that kept the Snowy at this time of the year and to floods out of the city has extended under squeeze a bit of peat moss to see how much the banks and has become so extensive that water runs out. It is like a sponge. The there is an imminent danger of the collapse peat moss prevents water on the Snowy of embankments that were erected many catchment from flowing too quickly into the years ago at a cost of thousands of pounds. dams. When the snow melts, the peat moss Indeed, another flood could cause the total holds the water and lets it gradually flow collapse of these protective banks, which in:to the little rivers and creeks and finally would slide into the river and leave the into the storage dam. If the country is city without protection from floodwaters. denuded of that moss, the run-off when the Already at one place there has been a snow melts and following rain storms will considerable collapse of the embankment be far too quick. Then the problem of into the river, and this has revealed the erosion will follow. The Department of extent of the damage that has been done Conservation initiated the move to prevent everywhere. erosion on the Snowy catchment and will fight tooth and nail to protect the catchment An estimate was made by a reliable en­ area, which will give Australia its greatest gineer who surveyed this problem with a view to assessing the cost of repairing the run-off of water. The Snowy catchment is embankments that protect the city of the only snow-fed catchment area in Grafton, and he concluded that the cost Australia. It is of great value as a national would be about £200,000. The raising of undertaking. I agree with anyone, no that amount of money would be an almost matter who they are or where they are, insuperable burden on the ratepayers, and that the protection of our streams is most therefore that city will need some assistance important and the silting and flooding of from the Government to erect defences our rivers and streams must be carefully against floodwaters and protect the future watched. We cannot spend too much money of the city. If the embankment goes, .flood­ on these works to prevent the deterioration waters will rush into the city, and I have of the great watersheds of Australia. no doubt that the cost of the material Mr. Enticknap] Harbours, Rivers and [23 OCT., 1962) Foreshores Commission 1139 damage will run into hundreds of thousands prejudice the lives of thousands of people, of pounds. That will be a major disaster and certainly would cause a serious loss of for Grafton. property. There is no doubt that something will The shires of Copmanhurst, Ulmarra, have to be done in the near future and, Nymboida and Maclean decided to send a realising the seriousness of the position, the deputation to the Minister for Public four shires concerned decided to consult Works. That deputation received a sym­ the authorities in Sydney. I was instru­ pathetic hearing from the Minister who, mental in having a deputation from those judging from the reports that he had re­ bodies received by the Minister for Public ceived from his engineers, realised just how Works and the Minister for Highways and serious the situation has become. The rep­ Minister for Local Government. We wanted resentatives of the shires concerned put up to ascertain whether a large proportion of a very strong case for a 100 per the £200,000 required would be provided cent grant, stating that there is no possi­ by the Government to meet the emergency. bility of a work of that magnitude being The trouble is that during the present year tackled solely by the local-government all the local-government bodies along the bodies concerned. I know that the Minister Clarence River have been hit by a series for Public Works is sympathetic in this of floods. We have had three bad floods, matter and realises the justice of our re­ and they have involved the local councils quest, and I hope that he will make in considerable expenditure on restoration representations to the Tr.easury to obtain the work. In addition to that, the councils nec·essary finance. I hope also, for the have been involved in a flood mitigation sake of the residents and the local­ scheme which has absorbed all their avail­ government bodies, that a grant of almost able money and now it is no exaggeration 100 per cent will be made available to carry to say that not only the local bodies but out the extensive remedial works that I have also the ratepayers and residents of the described. area are in such an impoverished condition that it is impossible for them even to think In this district we have carried out the about facing up to the additional burden suggestion implicit in the motion and the of repairing the flood embankments to amendment before the House, which is the keep future floods out of the city. The co-ordination of the activities of all bodies Government will therefore have to ·find concerned in the same matter. Instead of ways and means of meeting our request for having a situation like that described by a a large proportion of the money necessary previous speaker, ·of a dead horse floating to carry out this vital and urgent work. up and down a river because there was not an appropriate organisation to deal with it, Unfortunately, a similar state of affairs we in the Grafton district have a co-ordin­ exists at South Grafton. The embankments ated body of all the authorities concerned there which used to protect the town have in the control of erosion, silting and water been undermined by floods in the past few pollution. We have formed the Clarence years, and although at first glance it would River County Council, upon which are re­ look as though its repair is not a big job, presented all the local-government bodies engineers have discovered that the embank­ ments are undermined to an alarming extent with jurisdiction along the river who are and it will be an extensive and expensive interested in matters of this sort. All these job to repair them. That is the serious bodies now speak with one voice and are problem facing the people of Grafton and able to co-ordinate their work. This scheme South Grafton, but the local councils, the is working out very satisfactorily. The ratepayers and the people of the areas have main objective of this county council is not the financial resources to overcome the difficulty. It is a serious situation and could protection from floods. It deals also with lead to danger to the lives of many people erosion, river-bank protection and all prob­ as well as much damage to property. An­ lems that affect the .river, including drain­ other flood sweeping into Grafton might age and pollution. 1140 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission

It was necessary for us to have such a td. in the £. The Government should seri­ body because two years ago the Govern­ ously consider making much more money ment said that unless local government co­ available. Flood mitigation is a national ordinated its activities local-government problem, and the federal Government bodies could not be considered for grants should also contribute to its solution. I of money in connection with this work. am firmly of opinion that the federal Gov­ Since local-government authorities have ernment should contribute on a £-for-£ amalgamated into the one organisation that basis with the State. I understand that I mentioned, the Government has contri­ representations have already been made to buted to the cost of their work. Last year the federal Government asking it to par­ £35,000 was allocated by the Government ticipate in the scheme. Those representa­ to this authority, on a £2-for-£1 basis, and tions should be pressed with the object of this year £48,000 has been allocated on the getting the federal Government to partici­ same basis. However, so far the amount pate in this scheme, which should be treated of work that has been done is not con­ as one of national importance. After all, siderable, when it is compared with the if the farmers do not earn income, they huge amount that needs to be done. The do not pay income tax. This affects the work already planned will cost about federal Government as much as it affects £1,500,000 and there still remains an the State Government. We have every enormous amount to be carried out. Very justification in seeking federal assistance. fine work has been done in river-bank The federal Government has contributed protection, drainage and the provision of millions of pounds to many development flood-gates to prevent land from being works such as the Mount Isa railway-about inundated, but the work that remains will £15,000,000 over a period-the Ord River be a staggering burden on the people of the development scheme, beef roads through the district who will have to find one-third of channel country, and, nearer home, coal­ the cost. handling facilities at Balmain and Port Kembla. The federal Government would The Clarence River district has been be particularly justified in contributing to subjected to three serious floods, and over flood mitigation. and over again local councils have been obliged to repair bridges, bridge approaches, Water pollution does not seriously affect and damage to river banks and drainage the Clarence River, but pollution of our systems. One can imagine the state of local­ harbours, rivers and beaches is a serious government finances in these circumstances. problem. I am an enthusiastic swimmer Their expenditure has been such that they and fond of surfing, but after seeing ocean have reached the limits of their resources, and harbour beaches in the metropolitan and the State Government wilJ have to step area, I am disgusted that any organisation in and provide financial assistance. or local authority should be permitted to Although the State Government has made discharge untreated sewage into the harbour substantial contributions-£35,000 last year or sea under certain weather conditions, and £48,000 this year-it should not thus polluting the beaches. Occasionally become complacent ; an enormous amount I rise early and go for a swim at various of work remains to be done. The Vic­ beaches. Some of the things I have seen torian Government contributes to flood were absolutely disgusting. When one swims mitigation work not on a £2-for-£1 basis at Bondi, Coogee and even Manly, one but on a £5-for-£1 basis, appreciating reaches a belt of filth brought in by certain that the work is of State-wide significance conditions of wind and tide and becomes and that local people and ratepayers should surrounded by all sorts of disgusting filth not be called upon to bear the entire cost. such as toilet paper, fowl gut and feathers, faeces and condoms, and cannot get out of Of a total allocation of £74,000,000, this the water quickly enough to have a shower Government has allotted only £200,000 to in the surf sheds, using plenty of soap. flood mitigation work. That is a small per­ Instead of emerging from the water centage, representing little more than cleansed and refreshed, .one is disgusted for Mr. Weiley] Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962] Foreshores Commission 1141

a week or more thinking of the filth that affected coastal rivers like the Georges River people are obliged to swim in because the and the Parramatta River, but some streams authorities allow untreated sewage to be near big country towns also have experi­ discharged off our beaches and brought enced serious pollution problems. back to them. I do not know how the suggested com­ Years ago when I competed in surf life mission will solve these problems, but who­ saving events I had the nasty experience of ever is responsible at the present time­ leaving the water after a surf race and find­ and I understand many authorities are ing three or four of those offensive articles affected-has a real problem. The rapid inside my costume. No words are too strong population increase in expanding areas in to condemn the practice of polluting some the Sydney metropolitan area demonstrates of the most beautiful beaches in the world, what is happening. Take the area surround­ and perhaps by being a bit blunt and using ing the Georges River as an example. I a few four-letter words I shall get some­ doubt whether any other part of the Com­ thing done. It is not merely a matter of monwealth has had a greater population offending one's aesthetic taste. I have vivid increase than this area ; I certainly cannot recollections of an occasion when Subiaco. think of any. I believe that drainage from beach in Western Australia had to be closed the whole of the Bankstown munici­ because eleven cases of typhoid were traced pality runs into the Georges River, to pollution of that beach. Not only is such through Salt Pan Creek, Prospect Creek pollution an offence to the eye and disgust­ and the main river. The populous ing ; also, it is a serious menace to public municipality of Fairfield also drains health. There is great scope for this body, into the Georges River. These local­ when established, to do something about the governing bodies have tremendous prob­ pollution of our beaches from untreated lems, one of which is pollution. The muni­ sewage. The beaches are among our fore­ cipality of Bankstown at 30th June last most tourist attractions ; they are world­ year had 38,093 homes and fewer than half, famous. It is dreadful to think that they 14,489, were connected to the Metropolitan are polluted in this way when it could be Water Sewerage and Drainage Board's avoided by the use of proper methods. sewerage mains. Though many of them I hope that the Government will at long would have their own septic systems or last act quickly to deal with the pressing Hygeia Dissolvenators, most of tl'le un­ problem, first, of erosion, and then-prob­ sewered homes would have the antiquated ably more serious in the metropolitan area fifteenth-century pan system that has been -pollution of beaches. I favour the amend­ with us for far too long. ment because it provides a definite assur­ The Fairfield municipality at 30th June ance that, if agreed to, the body to deal last year had 19,306 homes, with 6,050 with these matters will be set up imme­ connected to the sewer. This enterprising diately. For those reasons I support the council established a treatment works, amendment. which drained into Prospect Creek. Hon. Mr. CROSS (Georges River) [5.39]: members will remember the recent report Water pollution is of vital concern to many of an analyst who reported on the water people throughout the State. The motion in Prospect Creek. To quote an expression proposes that the Government should give that has often been used on the other side consideration to setting up a harbours, of the House, the Fairfield municipality had rivers and foreshores commission to deal a population explosion in the past two, with problems of silting, erosion and pollu­ three or four years that caused the treat­ tion. One of the best contributions to this ment works to be overloaded. When the debate was made by the Minister for Con­ works broke down the effluent reached servation, who knows his subject intimately. Prospect Creek and the Georges River. Soil conservation and silting affects both Since then swimming areas have been inland rivers and coastal rivers,· as well as closed in the river and fish have been found harbours. Pollution has, in the main, dead in it. 1142 Harbours, Rivers and [ASSEMBLY] Foreshores Commission

Statistics of other municipalities that meet the needs of the people in the area, border the Georges River disclose that has progressively connected homes to the there are 350,000 people in this area. The sewer. Its work there is almost completed. problems are immense. Indeed, pollution Now the local people are having storm­ must be expected from sullage alone, even water problems which, though they have without the presence of bacteria or human been serious for some time, are growing waste from treatment works. Huge amounts worse. The area is almost completely built of sullage automatically flow into the river, up, and one local authority has reques~ed and this alone pollutes the river. Down­ the adjoining council to bear a proportion stream, stormwater from the Sutherland of the cost of stormwater drainage. The shire drains into the Georges River, through water board is not willing to undertake the the Woronora River. On 30th June last year work, and the council concerned is unwill­ this shire had 29,469 homes, of which 3,329 ing to ask for contributions from the people were sewered. I admit that many of those who acquired their low-lying land at low homes would be on terrain that drains into prices. Port Hacking or into the ocean. After pressure on the board over recent years ~he Mr. CRABTREE: That is not true, and you Hurstville municipality has shown great Im­ know it. provement, for 14,000 of its 17,260 homes Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. m·ember are sewered. The municipality of Kogarah will have the right of reply. is the most improved of the lot though not through the actions of the hon. member Mr. CROSS: I wish the hon. member for for Kogarah. It had 13,505 homes, with Kogarah would not interject. He does not 11,660 sewered. know his own subject. The people of the Some of the homes on the Sans Souci adjoining municipality pay a drainage rate peninsula were provided with a reticulated to the water board as their contribution to sewerage system at the most expensive rate the cost of draining their area. The local possible. This low-lying area, which is people are not willing to make any con­ mainly within the municipality of Rock­ tribution at all towards the cost of the pro­ dale should never have been developed for posal, which was put through by the hon. hom'e building. Though the high land only member for Kogarah with Labor support was developed in the early days, in recent in the two local councils. Plenty of suckers years the council has permitted the develop­ outside subscribed to the idea. The water ment of the swamp land, which now carries board is being confronted with problems all a tremendous population. The Metro­ the time. Wet seasons occur. politan Water Sewerage and Drainage Mr. CRABTREE: There are many very wet Board has had to spend millions of pounds seasons. in this one ar.ea to lay low-level mains. It has had to dig down below the high-water Mr. SPEAKER: Order! mark, and in one instance its pumping Mr. CROSS: Hon. members will recall station was almost 20 feet below the level that in 1960-1961 the annual rainfall was of high water in the Georges River. I have well above average in the metropolitan never witnessed such an awful undertaking area. Instead of the normal 47 inches of and such an objectionable and filthy task rain it was up to 60 inches in those years. undertaken by men. The work was carried At times 6 inches of rain fell within a few out by the board at colossal cost, for I un­ hours, and these downpours caused the derstand that the reticulated area on the board's sewer mains to overflow all over Sans Souci peninsula cost almost the place. The hon. member for Clarence £2,000,000. This was necessary only be­ said that this surcharge should not go into cause development was permitted by the the stormwater drains and thence into the local controlling authority in an area that rivers, bays, and ocean, finally settling on should never have been developed. The the beaches. Of course it should not. With Metropolitan Water Sewerage and Drainage a phenomenally heavy rainfall for two or Board, in its desire to install sanitation to three days the ground becomes waterlogged. Mr. Cross] Harbours, Rivers and [23 OcT., 1962] Foreshores Commission 1143

The water first seeps and then pours through Mr. CROSS: That was one of the finest joints in the 100 miles of pipeline in the reclamation works in New South Wales, municipality of Kogarah and the adjoin­ and it was done by a little municipality ing municipality of Hurstville. The joints with the aid of a Liberal government in the are not so impervious as they were when 'thirties, that did more for local government newly laid, and vegetation roots crack and than ever this Government has done in its open them. The pipes become absolutely twenty-one years of office-or is likely to flooded, so that one sees the lids of man­ do, even if it remains for 100 years. holes bobbing up all over the place and Kogarah council was the first to avail itself the water, including human waste, over­ of a grant under the Spooner scheme. In flowing into the open. Where else can it fact, it anticipated a grant under that scheme go? and raised a loan for a proportion of the The Metropolitan Water Sewerage and money needed for this and other schemes in Drainage Board has the right to discharge the municipality. the overflow into the stormwater drains, Mr. CRABTREE: You would like to see and it must go into the river. The only the Spooner scheme revived. choice is between allowing this surcharge, which will continue to happen from time Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I draw the atten­ to time, to flow over people's gardens, 'tion of the hon. member for Kogarah to lawns and the streets, or into the rivers and the fact that I have called for order from bays by way of the stormwater drains. him about three or four times already. It What is to be the choice? It looks to me is difficult for an hon. member to proceed as if it is difficult to avoid what the board with his speech when he is being subjected is doing. I make these comments now be­ to a series of interjections. The hon. mem­ cause this aspect has been raised in the ber will have an opportunity of replying, debate and is one of the problems referred to in the motion under consideration. I no doubt. In the meantime I ask that he intended to speak to the motion as it re­ refrain from interjecting. lates to our coastal rivers and the western Mr. CROSS: One condition of a grant rivers, for I was interested in what the under the Spooner scheme was that the Minister for Conservation had to say. I shall refer to some of the remarks made by council should give work to local unem­ the hon. member for Kogarah. After deal­ ployed on the project, in accordance with ing with pollution of Georges River-and the policy of the government of the day. I have dealt with that subject-the hon. Hon. members will appreciate all the good member referred to some reclamation work. ingredients in the scheme. There was, first, Mr. CRABTREE: Proposed reclamation. the reclamation of a vital area ; second, a government grant towards meeting the cost. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Mr. REX JACKSON: And work for the Mr. CROSS: The hon. member for unemployed. Kogarah took to task some councils, in­ cluding my own Kogarah Municipal Coun­ Mr. CROSS: The third benefit was cil, which is in his electorate, for engaging absorption of some unemployed. The hon. in reclamation work. One of the finest member's interjection about unemployed reclamation schemes in this State was car­ was, of course, disorderly, but I remind ried out by Kogarah council, without the him that recently when some money was approval of this Government and before it made available by the Commonwealth Gov­ came into existence. I refer to the Bever­ ernment to this Government, I and every­ ley Park golf course. one else thought that it was to be used for the relief of unemployment. In antici­ Mr. CRABTREE: Come up to date. pation that this money would be made Mr. SPEAKER: Order! available for the purpose, I wrote to the 1144 Harbours Commission [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963

Premier suggesting a series of works that Mr. SPEAKER: Order! As is is now six might be put in train in two municipalities o'clock, p.m., the debate stands adjourned that I am privileged to represent. in accordance with the sessional order adopted on 26th September. Mr. REX JACKSON: They do not think so. Government business called on in accord­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The strictures on ance with sessional order. interjection that I applied to the hon. mem­ [Mr. Speaker left the chair at 6 p.m. The ber for Kogarah apply equally to the hon. House resumed at 7.30 p.m.l member for Bulli. ESTIMATES, 1962-1963 Mr. CROSS: I made this request on 'the grounds that the two local authorities were IN COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY going to find some money for two im­ (Consideration resumed from 18th portant schemes. The first dealt with October, vide page 1109.) reclamation and the other with the inade­ quate bridges constructed over the railway PREMIER-continued line by the Government. I received noth­ Proposed vote, £11,443,371. ing. I make those remarks in reply to the Mr. DARBY (Manly) [7.31]: On interjection about employment. That was Thursday afternoon I commenced my re­ a glaring instance of this Government's marks on this Estimate by directing the avoiding a vital issue in a way that affected Committee's attention to an item ·of con­ not only my electorate, but also many other siderable significance on page 49 of the electorates. budget papers, the cost of survey of clerical Mr. Dow: The hon. member received no operations in the public service, for which reply to his representations? £13,310 was spent last year and on which it is expected to spend nearly £6,000 this Mr. CROSS: I received a reply that noth­ year. I mentioned the efficiency and ing could be done. Members of the Coun­ economy that this State should be receiving try Party also asked when this money was from automation and the application of becoming available for the relief of unem­ modern scientific and technological dis­ ployed. We have learnt subsequently that it coveries. The annual report of the Public all went to consolidated revenue and the Service Board for the year ended 30th Government let out a small dribble now June, 1961-the latest one available­ and then. Let me come back to the remarks points out the improvements being intro­ of the hon. member for Kogarah who took duced and contemplated by the provision of to task the Kogarah Municipal Council for mechanical and electronic equipment. I carrying out a laudable scheme in Carss believe that much more could be done. Park at the present 'time. He made many Consider the problems of a member of untruthful statements. One was that the Parliament who tries to get some informa­ council by this scheme was polluting the tion from someone in the public service. waters of Kogarah Bay. I listened to what He dials a number. A person at the other he had to say and then got in touch with end listens to his story and says that some­ the Health Department and the council one else on another number would perhaps health officers. They have flatly denied that deal with the matter more appropriately. they have ignored the pollution aspect. The member finally gets through to that Frequent tests are conducted, and if the number or continually finds that it is en­ hon. member for Kogarah is interested he gaged. If he succeeds in getting through, can go and see them making them. perhaps the person he wants is not avail­ Mr. CRABTREE: I have seen the river. able. For each hour that members of Par­ liament spend in that way-and we all M:r. CROSS: These tests disclose that experience it-how many hours do ordinary there is no evidence of foreign matter or electors, unacquainted with the procedure, bacteria whatever. Why does the hon. mem­ spend trying to get information? I suppose ber make a statement when it is untrue? there is no greater frustration in life than Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962) Estimates, 1962-1963 1145

trying to get some sense out of a govern­ reference to page 52 of the Estimates pro­ ment department, trying to find someone to vides an answer. Policemen are rapidly answer a particular problem. If one calls becoming far more clerks than guardians of at the counter, one· finds oneself in a mess the law. Though the ·e·stablishment of the and has the problem of trying to find the police force contains 278 clerks, they are right person to answer a query. There are concerned with the administration of traffic forms to fill in, letters to write, and a long, offences, sending out notices and sum­ long time elapses before a reply is received monses to people to pay up or go to or satisfaction is gained. court. Failing satisfaction, the elector appeals to Mr. LAWSON: Fines are issued on the his local member of Parliament, who ex­ spot now. periences almost the same difficulties. Yet, modern science gives us the answer to the Mr. DARBY: A lot of clerical work is associated with that, too ; it still involves problem: ring up a number and a recorded the employment of 278 clerks in the police voice says, "If you have a problem, please establishment. The poor policeman in an state your name and address and then state ordinary police station is becoming more your problem quite clearly: a tape record­ and more a clerk each year. I appreciate ing will be made of what you say and a the need for more policemen, about which reply will be sent to you within a few I shall have something to say later, but hours." What a lot of time and frustra­ the strengthening of the force may well be tion an electronic tape recording system like achieved by giving to the sergeant in charge that would achieve. One can visualise the or superintendent of a police station some amount of time that would be saved by the ordinary clerks, so that the policeman who Public Service Board in endeavouring to is trained to prevent crime and capture organise the public service of the State if criminals can spend much more of his time it were bold enough, confident enough, and doing what he is trained to do. competent enough to introduce systems of that sort. One administrative fault, to which I drew attention during the debate on the Estimate Having spoken of this possible, and I of the Legislature, is that we tend to dis­ believe highly advisable, new system result­ perse the brains and ability of our civil ing in greater efficiency, I ask, why con­ servants. We employ a person with brains template the building of a super-dooper and ability to do a particular job, get him architectural monstrosity to tower over to perform routine work and pay him a Sydney and enter into active competition high salary for doing so. This is ineffi­ with the equal monstrosity of a federal ciency. A policeman is a professional man office block when, by the use of science and and every time he taps a typewriter or does modern technology, the office accommo­ the work of a clerk, he is wasting his time. dation and staff necessary for the adminis­ tration of government departments could Mr. BENNETT: He is scabbing on the be reduced? It should be within the power clerks? of the· Government so to decentralise its Mr. DARBY: In my view the word office administration that fewer, not more, scabbing should not be used and has never people would have to be brought into the been included in my vocabulary. It is heart of the city, accentuating the growing merely a question of efficiency. Ever since disease of metropolitis. We now have a I have been a member in this Chamber I Ministry of Decentralisation, and it is a have been saying that though our police pity that ministry did not have some inter­ force does a magnificent job in detecting est in halting the centralisation of the Gov­ crime after it has occurred, there is a short­ ernment's office administration. age of policemen and, with the different If the introduction of automation results emphasis placed upon the activities of the in the saving of staff, as I believe it must, police force, one does not see policemen how will those people be employed? A about, especially in outlying suburbs, as 1146 Estimates, 1962-1963 [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963 one ought to see them. The criminal, male­ travel at dangerous speeds in an effort to factor, vandal or irresponsible youth does apprehend the driver of a motor vehicle not see a policeman around the place where that is going too fast or is being driven by he is attempting or planning to do some­ an escapee. It is a shame that from time thing against the good order of society. At to time policemen meet death on the road one time the policeman patrolled his beat. while they are driving cars or cycles at He knew the local people and if he saw high speed in pursuit of another motor strangers, would scratch his head and vehicle. A better solution ought to be wonder what they were about. found of the problem of apprehending the This does not happen today. As a result drivers of stolen cars. Recently I saw-- one finds that an increasing number of The CHAIRMAN: Order! May I ask the business people are banding together to ap­ bon. member to keep to the Estimate that is point watchmen for their premises. The before the Committee? number of burglaries is increasing. I am not saying that the police are not on the Mr. DARBY: I am speaking now about spot as soon as they get a report of a general administration. On one occasion crime. The fact is that our policeman are recently I saw a car that was obviously not on beat duty. I have referred pre­ being driven faster than it would have been viously in this Chamber to the fact that a before the driver found himself being number of parents in my electorate have chased, and behind the car came banded together and, on Monday nights, we a policeman mounted on a motor cycle. I go to the Manly park to pick up our daugh­ do not think that this incident resulted in ters after the conclusion of their Girl Guide an accident, but it is a most dangerous pro­ activities. We do this because we are cedure. Modern science and technology frightened that our daughters, unescorted, ought to be able to evolve some solution might be molested on their way home at that would obviate danger not only to the night. Every parent in New South Wales policeman himself, who after all is only has this fear, especially in outer suburbs doing his duty, but also to other citizens where there is a lot of bush and the streets who may be involved in an accident. are not well lighted. The danger is greater I congratulate the Government on having in those outlying areas. at long last introduced really worthwhile It is a pity that in a so-called civilised summer uniforms for policemen. Notwith­ community, parents are frightened that their standing this improvement, may I put for­ children coming home at night may be ward another plea to enlist the aid of molested, when we have no policemen on modern science and technology. Someone beats. Modern science can give a police­ could invent an insulated sole for police­ man infinitely more capacity than the old­ men's shoes, so that when these men are time policeman with a whistle. Police could standing on point duty on a hot day their be given walkie-talkie sets to strap on their backs. So equipped, they would be in com­ feet will not burn from contact with the mand of the situation and a criminal or hot pavement. would-be malefactor would know very well Mr. CRABTREE: They could be issued indeed that these policemen could summon help at any tick of the clock. with water-cooled boots. Mr. CRABTREE: They could wear roller Mr. DARBY: The hon. member's re­ skates, too. mark illustrates the flippancy with which some Government supporters might regard Mr. DARBY: There are fools, damn fools and Crabtree. this problem. The hon. member should try standing for an hour some hot summer day, The CHAIRMAN: Order! and see how the soles of his feet are burned. Mr. DARBY: Modern science and tech­ Experiments could be conducted to evolve nology ought to be able to provide an alter­ an insulating material for use in the soles native to policemen finding it necessary to of policemen's shoes so that these men Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962] Estimates, 1962-1963 1147 would not have to suffer as they do at pre­ be confronted by a large number of situa­ sent. The Estimate provides for increas­ tions with which he would have to deal ing the number of parking policemen from in his real-life driving. 109 to 116. Previously, in a question, I Mr. CRABTREE: That would not be a final have raised this matter and suggested that test? parking policemen deserve a proper award and full superannuation. Provision is made, Mr. DARBY: No, a preliminary test. also, in this Estimate for the testing of Early this year I suggested to the Commis­ drivers for driving licences. On a number sioner of Police that the top of a super­ of occasions I have told bon. members how market at Balgowlah in my electorate could in 1928 I obtained my own driver's licence. be used for a pilot experiment. A testing All I did was to drive a policeman at ground of this sort is in existence and is Crookwell up to the post office so that he being used by the police to test their own could post a letter, and take him back drivers. It would be an ideal way to train afterwards. It was not much of a driving children in the art of driving. I believe test. Since then I have been driving cars, that, as part of their school curriculum, renewing my licence every year by signing children should be given adequate train­ a form and posting a cheque, and no police­ ing in the correct method of driving a motor man or anyone else has ever tested me to car. Let me instance training methods in find out whether I am as good a driver as such sports as tennis, golf and swimming. I ought to be. A man can jump into the water and teach Mr. CRABTREE: The bon. member is himself to swim, he can get an amateur lucky. swimmer to teach him or he can pay a competent professional to train him. He Mr. DARBY: I agree that I am a good will learn the best technique from the pro­ driver, but so far as the police department fessional. If we say to a young person, knows, I could be blind, diabetic, schizo­ "I think you should take up golf", we phrenic, epileptic or suffering from some know that he will learn the best habits and other disability. For more than thirty-four approach to the game from a professional years the department has accepted my word instructor. The same may be said about that I am all right and it has gratefully all games and arts. Yet the method of accepted my cheque. The time has come learning to drive a motor car is haphazard when drivers who have held licences for in the extreme. Admittedly, driving schools a number of years should be retested. One have been established, but a large number of the first stages towards achieving this of people learn to drive from others who objective is the subjecting of a person who have never properly understood the finer has been involved in an accident which has points of driving. The art of driving a been brought to the notice of the police, motor car should be an essential qualifica­ to a full test to determine whether he is tion of citizenship, and should be taught at schools by expert instructors. competent to drive a motor vehicle. This is a most necessary reform. Frequently I am approached by people from the United Kingdom or other parts A driving test consists of the applicant of the British Commonwealth of Nations, answering a few questions and then driving who before they migrated were policemen. with a testing officer along a road. A special They find on arriving here that if they are area should be set aside for testing. Park more than 30 years of age they cannot join lands, the roofs of large supermarkets or our police force. It is possible that we similar areas would be ideal for this pur­ could welcome large numbers of migrant pose. There, over a prescribed course con­ policemen into our police force in large taining all the traffic hazards that confront measure, without the necessity for training the ordinary driver, the applicant for a them, if our legislation were amended to driver's licence could be put through his enable policemen older than 30 years of age paces without any people about. He could to be appointed. 1148 Estimates, 1962-1963 [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963

Mr. CRABTREE: There are plenty of Mr. REX JACKSON : YOU referred to the young Australians who want to join the police as dirty. That is a shocking thing police force. to say. Mr. DARBY: I did not say there were Mr. DARBY: I did not. I said some not, but we could give to men migrating to police stations are. Occasionally some Australia and just a few years older than 30, stations are repainted, but I do not know an opportunity to join our police force. For of a glamour one. Let me refer hon. mem­ many years there was a system under which bers to the 1961 report of the Police De­ school teachers who did well in their pro­ partment, the last one available. It shows. fession in New South Wales could exchange that new police stations were built at Casino. with school teachers in the United King­ Goodooga, Coonamble and Quandialla. dom, Canada, New Zealand and, until recently, South Africa. A similar scheme Mr. McCARTNEY: What about Belmont? for policemen has never been introduced. A new police station was opened there Though laws, procedures and uniforms vary recently. from country to country, it should be pos­ Mr. DARBY: I am sorry I have not a sible to introduce such an exchange system. later report. This one goes on to say that This lack of reciprocity between New South at the close of the year the Albury and Bel­ Wales and other English-speaking countries mont police stations were started. Some should be remedied. new police stations must be built ; other­ In the seventeen years that I have been wise the old ones will fall to pieces. Only a member of Parliament I have never re­ a few days ago the Minister for Education, ferred to one of the most important build­ with pride, declared open the new assembly ings in my electorate, the police station at hall at the Narrabeen High School. Hon. Manly. On the many occasions that I have members might ask the Minister for Edu­ gone into the station I have never heard cation about the list of new schools and a policeman say to me, "Now you are here, note the difference in approach. It is not Mr. Darby, I have a complaint to make." often that we hear of the opening of a new I regard our policemen at Manly as among police station and the minor places where· our finest citizens, and splendid represen­ new police stations were opened in the year tatives of a very fine force. When I go that I have taken as an example indicate into schools in the electorate usually I that the construction of new police stations receive complaints. It seems to me that it is is severely limited. Let us compare the part of the school teacher's way of life magnificent new building opened recently today to make sure that he makes com­ in Manly, the Mackellar County Councif plaints . or participates in demonstrations offices, and Manly Police Station. Both about his working conditions. But not the these buildings have been constructed out policemen. They are loyal, they take it, of public money, but in the Mackellar but they do not complain. What does one County Council building one finds a charm­ see when one walks into Manly police ing hostess and modern furniture, lighting. station? It is a government institution show­ floor coverings and architecture. Every­ ing typical evidence of unfortunate working thing is nice and comfortable. The police conditions. station at Manly is the same as it was on Mr. HuGHEs: A slum. the day it was built in 1925. It follows the pattern of the old bushranging days. Mr. DARBY: Some people might liken The counter h sordid ; the place where the the working conditions in them to those prisoner is to be charged is sordid, Vic­ found in slums. Manly police station is torian and out of date. not unique ; I believe that every police If we are to have a police force of which building in New South Wales is out of we can be proud something must be done date, dirty, untidy, unkempt, disregarded to make a police station a thing of decency. by the Government and a reflection upon Inside the police station one finds men modern civilisation. working without complaint with archaic Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962] Estimates, 1962-1963 1149 equipment-typewriters that I am sure comes to the common or garden way of came out of the original Remington running a police station, we are back in museum. I made a note about the type the Victorian days. of telephone installed in Manly Police The police force has changed tremen­ Station. The equipment in this station dously over the past few years. I pay a would make a modern business executive tribute to the work done before his retire­ quail, but Manly is typical of all police ment by Mr. Delaney and I welcome as stations throughout the State. On entering Commissioner of Police one of my con­ the police station one asks himself what stituents, Mr. Norman Allan. After the he has come across. Assume that a man necessary devotion to the preservation of has a statement to make. The policeman discipline and efficiency, Mr. Allan's ap­ tries to take down the statement, but no proach is towards public relations. At one modern technology or scientific aid is used. time people said to their children, "You The same kind of painstaking method used be good or I'll give you to a policeman." in the days of the first constabulary when Those days are over and rightly so, but one the troopers were armed with sabres is would not think so after walking into a still being used. police station, which reflects the very atmo­ Why is it not possible for a tape-record­ sphere ·Of those other days. The choice of ing system to be in use in all our police Norman Allan as Commissioner of Police stations, so that a man with a statement to is a happy one but he must be gravely han­ make can record it on tape. If a police dicapped in his striving for better public officer wishes to interview a man and relations by the interior and exterior ap­ charge him with an offence all that he pearance of the New South Wales police has to say is, "Let me press a couple of stations. The ambition of having a police­ buttons and then all the questions I ask man as a friend, guide and adviser can only you and all the things you say to me are be achieved when a person can walk into on tape." He does not have to touch a a police station and find the sort of atmo­ typewriter and all he has to do is to sign sphere and reception he experiences when the tape that this was taken down in the he walks into the new super-dooper offices presence of the man making the statement. of the Mackellar County Council, the foyer This makes a permanent record. If the of one of our new high schools or the other statement has to be transcribed it can easily public buildings now being built by the be done. Why do we not have that kind Government. For some unexplained reason of efficiency in our police stations? the police force has been excluded from this new building programme. Mr. BENNETT: Is that accepted in I notice that reports of government de­ evidence? partments are increasing in size almost Mr. DARBY: I could not say. If it is every year. Considerable economies could not, we as a parliament can make the laws. be achieved by a more succinct and eco­ It so happens that the laws were made in nomic production of the hundreds of annual the days before the tape recorder. If we reports that are pr·epared. are so Victorian in our attitude that we Mr. FREUDENSTEIN (Young) [8.10]: cannot adapt our laws to take advantage £11,443,371 is not a large sum to be allo­ of inventions like the tape recorder, we are cated to the Premier, who is the leader of poor indeed. It is not my task to give the State, especially as £10,318,183 of it is details of what can be done ; it is my task to be spent on the police force. I wish to at the moment to show that in the adminis­ refer to the police officers who are engaged tration of the police force we are not tak­ in detecting traffic offences, particularly ing advantage of scientific improvements those who apprehend motorists who exceed for dealing with matters of administration. On the other hand in the use of science and the speed limit. In saying this I refer to technology in fingerprinting and chemical those officers who wait just outside towns analysis, the New South Wales police force in 30-mile-an-hour areas and hide behind is as good as any in the world. When it hedges and in lanes, to catch offending 1150 Estimates, 1962-1963 [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963 motorists. I know it is necessary to police on it. I have suggested also that the com­ speed limits, but these officers would be mission could build a somewhat larger home used to far better advantage if they drove for the police inspector at Forbes so that in motor cars on our main highways. he could have an office in it and thus be able to carry out his duties in a modern There is no hard and fast speed limit on building. There is a great need for housing the open highways, but there is a great in the town of Forbes, and this is an oppor­ danger if motorists travel at very tunity for the Police Department to acquire high speeds and cross double yellow a new home for its inspector and at the lines. Police officers should travel in motor same time provide land for the housing of cars, fitted with radar and photographic de­ - many people. vices in the headlights to show when of­ fences like dangerous high-speed driving Last year I mentioned superannuation and crossing yellow lines occur. Very for women members of the police few people are killed because of excess force. At the beginning of last year a speed in built-up areas where most police lady with long service in the police force are employed, and these officers become was retired, but because there was no pro­ merely revenue collectors for the Govern­ vision under the Superannuation Act or ment. If the reforms I have suggested the Police Regulation (Superannuation) Act were made, the serious death rate on the for women members of the force she was roads would be reduced, and dangerous forced to retire without a pension. I repeat driving would be curbed. that she had given fine service to the State, but was kicked out without a pension. This I now refer to livestock specialists in the is very wrong, and we should ensure that police force. A few years ago in my elec­ some action is taken to protect ladies like torate there was a considerable amount of that who have given many years of ser­ stock stealing, and moving of stock on vice to the people of New South Wales. floats at night. I requested the Police De­ partment to send to the district a specialist According to the Estimate, the Public in livestock inspection, earmarks and so on. Service Board is to be allocated £176,485 The department sent a most capable officer. for salaries and payments in the nature The activities of stock thieves were con­ of salaries, £56,054 for maintenance and siderably curtailed by his efficiency in in­ working expenses, and £27,676 for other specting stock floats and checking the move­ services, making a total of £260,215. That ment of stock throughout the area, and his is not an excessive amount, but through­ ability to identify stock. It might be pos­ out the public service there is a tendency sible to make provision in this Estimate for for each department to build itself up. training specialists to prevent livestock steal­ Apparently the bigger a department be­ ing, and so reduce the great stock losses that comes the greater becomes the salary of are occurring throughout the State. Un­ those at the top. There should be a num­ fortunately, the officer I mentioned has now been transferred, but I am sure that he is ber of efficiency officers in the Public Ser­ carrying on his good work. vice Board who can examine the work of departments and individuals with the object Another matter that I wish to bring to the attention of the Government is the of reducing the huge expenditure. For residence of the police inspector at Forbes. example, in the Department of Lands, I have written to the Police Department, officers are falling over themselves looking the Premier's Department and the Depart­ for jobs to do. That is not only because ment of Public Works about this most anti­ of the inefficiency of that department but quated building. However, several acres also because the premises and everything of land surround the residence and I have connected with them are quite inadequate. suggested to the Police Department that it should hand this land over to the Housing Officers in the Public Service Board should Commission so that the commission could be trained to examine the efficiency of de­ build a considerable number of cottages partments and endeavour to cut down the Mr. Freudenstein] Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962] Estimates, 1962-1963 1151 huge waste of public money that is at pre­ station is ·Over 70 years old and has out­ sent occurring. I ask that the matters I lived its usefulness. Though recently it has have mentioned be carefully examined by been painted and relined, giving it a much the Government. better appearance, it is entirely inadequate Mr. McCARTNEY (Hamilton) [8.20]: for the staff. The last letter I received on For the past couple of years I have been this matter said that a new garage, charge gravely concerned about the staffing of the room, store room, exhibits room, toilets old police station at Hamilton. I have and sergeants' room, and a waiting room taken up this matter with the Premier a for the public would be provided. None number of times, and on the last occasion I of this work has been done. sought an increase in the detective staff. I hope_that funds will be provided this Two years ago the detective force at Hamil­ year for the work, and that separate accom­ ton was four, but later it was reduced to modation will be provided for the detectives. two. There was a general outcry from the I strongly appeal for restoration of the business people of Hamilton, a large com­ detective force to four, as it was two years mercial centre, because they feared an in­ ago. This must be done to meet the needs crease in crime. The Premier referred my of this ever-growing district. I am in­ repre.sentations to the Commissioner of formed that after ordinary office hours the Police, who reported that as Newcastle was two detectives are at times required to go only 4 miles distant, Newcastle detectives as far away as Swansea to investigate could be used for work at Hamilton when crimes. Obviously two detectives cannot the local detectives were not available. The meet the needs of such a large area, especi­ Hamilton district has a population of 64,000, ally when they are required to travel long and the detective force should be increased distances after ordinary hours. The Hamil­ to four, as it was two years ago. ton detective district extends to Wickham, On the la.st occasion I made representa­ Merewether and certain parts of Adams­ tions I was informed that the commissioner town and Broadmeadow. In the circum­ would further consider the matter in six stances I feel my request is reasonable. months. That time has now elapsed, but I Mr. BRUXNER: (Tenterfield) [8.26]: have received no further information from If there is anything left after the needs of him. This situation must be reviewed im­ Manly and Hamilton have been catered for, mediately, and the detective staff at Hamil­ I should like briefly to invite the attention ton restored to four. Two detectives are of the Committee to the police station at entirely inadequate to serve the needs of the Glen Innes. It has been said that the people. On many occasions it is not pos­ police station at Manly is ninety years old, sible to get their services, because they have and the one at Hamilton seventy years time off, and the detective staff from New­ old. Glen Innes is about to celebrate its castle has to be called in. centenary, and the folk of that town and I agree with the hon. member for Manly I would react most favourably to the build­ that some police stations seem to be the ing of a new station. I have brought to Cinderellas of the police force. Very little the notice of the Premier and the Com­ is done to modernise them to meet 'the re­ missioner of Police ,the inadequacy of the quirements of the increasing population. police premises at Glen Innes. On 11th People waiting to see the sergeant or detec­ June the Premier promised that he would tives at Hamilton must sit on the open immediately investigate it, and on 8th Aug­ veranda, on which two forms are placed. ust the commissioner reported to me that They resent silting on the forms in open he personally was in favour of speedy view of the public, for they feel it might action being taken, and that he had re­ be thought that they are awaiting interro­ ferred the matter to the Department of gation by the police for committing some Public Works. The local public works in­ unlawful act. Eighteen months ago I was spector has since recommended that no promised that a separate waiting room money be spent on repairs and renovations would be provided at the station. It should at Glen Innes police station if new build­ be provided at once. The Hamilton police ings can be provided. I could do no better 1152 Estimates, 1962-1963 [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963

than to quote briefly from the report of the better is expected. The health inspector health inspector of the Glen Innes Muni­ concluded his remarks on this portion of cipal Council, an officer trained in this the building by saying: work. He reported that the office quarters . . . how a prisoner would be expected of the station consist of three rooms which to keep himself clean and healthy under these have to accommodate the officer-in-charge, conditions I fail to understand. the charge room and the remaining police The hon. member for Hamilton referred staff. These facilities do not afford suffi­ to garage accommodation, and I must point cient space, privacy or public and staff out that the comments on the garage at comfort, the public being denied any com­ Glen Innes in this report are: fort, even seating accommodation. The These are a conversion from what appears sergeant's residence, which I inspected to have been old stables and their size and last Friday, could rightly be mentioned state of disrepair calls for serious renova­ tions or renewal. under the Agriculture Estimate because grass grows through the floor, and under Another portion of the report states: the Conservation Estimate because water The record or exhibit rooms are aged, in disrepair and I assume never intended for the runs down the walls. I visited it on a wet purpose to which they are put. They are day. The sergeant is in charge of a large neither fire, nor thief or rodent proof. and important area, and he is a most The worst part of the police buildings capabl·e police officer. The health inspector is the lock-up keeper's residence. While the also said : crime report at Glen Innes is quite In this building the whole of the eastern healthy, being one of the lowest in the wall appears to be subject to dampness. State this year, a lock-up and lock-up keeper The laundry, bathroom and kitchen are are necessary. I have called periodically denied the ordinary comfort of a hot water at this residence and am most concerned supply, the bath only being served by a chip heater. at the conditions that exist there. Quoting further from the health inspector's report, These conditions for senior officers should he states: not be condoned by Parliament. Careful inspection of the exposed walls and beneath floor coverings shows signs of At a recent function in Glen Innes the dampness, indeed the floor timbers must be Minister for Local Government and Minis­ very close to the ground . . . The kitchen is ter for Highways, when opening the new an added room and access to othe.r rooms is by verandah which has a concrete floor . . . shire council chambers, referred to a com­ dampness is very apparent in the kitchen ... ment I made about the police station. The In my opinion this building is cold, damp, lacks ordinary amenities such as hot water Minister raised quite a laugh by telling service, cupboards, sufficient practical living those present that, having catered for the space and in this climate sufficient sunlight. needs of the shire staff, I wanted to make The inspector sums up his comments on the the inmates of the local lock-up more com­ Glen Innes police station buildings with fortable. I concede the Minister his laugh. these remarks: He, unlike myself, even got a paragraph The premises are aged, inconvenient, out of keeping with present day police~ work, in the local paper. But tonight it is far public health standards, and progressive town from a laughing matter. Quoting again appearances. No amount of repair, replace­ ment, or renewal expenditure can alter the from the health inspector's report, the cells above facts . . . Public facilities and conveni­ are described in this way: ences are non existent. This portion of the buildings is far re­ I might mention that toilets for police and moved from today's standard of prisoner public are far removed down the backyard. welfare. The summing up continues: While I agree that a prisoner is not locked Prisoner accommodation is to say the least up to enjoy himself, surely in the Glen outmoded. The lock-up keeper and his family in my opinion live under sub-standard Innes climate in winter time something conditions. Mr. Bruxner] Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962] Estimates, 1962-1963 1153

I readily state that these conditions do not that any fair-minded han. member from exist in the rest of the Tenterfield elec­ either side of the Chamber would agree torate. Ron. members might have noticed that this necessary assistance should be sup­ that the Inverell police station was featured plied officially. I ask that the research in the centenary brochure that was issued officer attached to the staff of the Leader by the Police Department. I place on of the Opposition be included in the official record my thanks for that and also for the establishment and paid for officially. The recent renovations at Tenterfield. However, request is a reasonable one and, as the I ask the Premier, who administers the officer has been employed for ten years, it Police Department, to give serious consid­ could not be said that I am bringing up eration to placing improvements at Glen this matter before its time. Innes among the top priorities. Mr. H. E. JACKSON (Gosford) [8.39]: Mr. ASKIN (Collaroy) [8.35]: As every­ The large sum of £10,318,183, or 5 per cent body else is getting in for his cut, I think of the total Budget, is being appropriated I had better say something for myself. Out for the Police Department. This is more of the millions of pounds for salaries and or less an insurance premium representing other purposes under this Estimate there is the cost of law enforcement in the State. a small item of £5,747 for the staff of the However, I wish to be sure that the money Leader of the Opposition. Most hon. mem­ is being spent to the best advantage. Of bers would concede that the Leader of the course, I do not doubt the integrity of the Opposition, with his pressure of work, members of the police force, for whom I needs assistance. For the past ten years have the greatest admiration, but I believe my predecessors and myself have found it that money could be saved and greater impossible to discharge our duties effec­ efficiency achieved in law enforcement if tively without the assistance of a research some modern trends were followed. Earlier officer. At present my staff comprises a this evening the han. member for Manly private secretary, a press officer and two gave an outline of his idea on the subject, ladies ; in addition, for the past ten years, and I, too, believe that our police force a research officer, who is receiving the could, by the adoption of a number of modest salary of £1,300 a year, has been innovations, be brought more into line with employed unofficially and paid for privately. present-day trends. This arrangement is far from satisfactory. I have always thought it rather silly to On the Government side, the Premier is have big husky men, trained for law en­ assisted by no fewer than six public rela­ forcement, sitting down at desks typ,ing tions officers. I certainly do not begrudge innumerable reports, dictated statements and the Premier these officers, for I realise that, so on. That sort of work could be done occupying the top job in this State, he is by women, or youths who are not neces­ a very busy man. Also, most Ministers, if not all, have an officer or a section of sarily going on into the police force to take their departments to conduct research for it up as a full-time calling. If this were them. These people are on the official pay­ done, it would automatically release trained roll. I concede that it is essential for the members of the force for work for which Ministers to have this assistance for they, they have been specially trained. I know too, have responsible jobs and work at high that today police cadets must undergo a pressure. long course of training, which includes the My point is that the Leader of the Op­ study of typing and shorthand. I doubt the position, whose supporters number about value of this study to them. The work 50 per cent of the people in the State, has could be done by less highly trained persons, a total official staff of four, including two females, and his fifth assistant, the research and probably cheaper and more efficiently, officer, has to be paid for privately. We quite apart from a consideration of whether employ a lady instead of a man so that the modern tape-recording machines could be expense will be kept down, but I am sure used quite extensively in police work. 73 1154 Estimates, 1962-1963 [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963 Recently I saw police lose a case at court Chamber by Mr. Speaker. They followed because the traffic constable concerned had the coast south and became a nuisance ·in taken insufficient notes at the time he made my area. I am told that when action was the arrest and charged the accused. The taken against them by the Gosford case came on for hearing six months later police, some of these larrikins went and the charge was dismissed for lack of on to another beach resort and made evidence. The policeman had put down a nuisance of themselves there. There insufficient details in his notebook at the should be concentrations of police in time. I wonder whether it would not be these resorts at holiday periods to possible to establish a system whereby a quell these incipient riots quickly, before constable or other police officer, upon re­ they start. These larrikins can be recog­ turning to the station from patrol-of what­ nised as potential law-breakers when they ever type-could dictate to trained persons turn up in any district. Local police should in the office staff a full report of incidents not have to radio for assistance to quell in the patrol, and sign the statement when these disturbances. More police assistance it was typed. The document could be ten­ should be available more quickly in the dered in court as evidence and thus, perhaps, areas that attract this type of larrikin. relieve a policeman from actual attendance I have spoken here before about the in court. I do know that the time of many growing bad habit of motorists passing officers is now taken up in court attendance others on the left. It is now permissible to give evidence in many cases that are not for a motorist to pass on the left where defended. Adoption of my suggestion traffic lanes are marked on the roadway. would automatically release men for active Since this practice began, passing on the police duty. There is room for improve­ ment in office procedures within the police left where no traffic lane lines are marked is becoming quite common. I defy anyone force. who consistently travels on our roads to In law enforcement there is no greater say that he has not seen on many occasions deterrent to crime, whether it be traffic a motorist overtaking on the left, in con­ offences or anything else, than the uni­ travention of the regulations. formed policeman in sight of the public. I agree strongly with the hon. member for Mr. Dow: It is very dangerous and the Young who spoke about the tendency of practice is increasing. traffic police to hide in .Janeways and be­ Mr. H. E. JACKSON: It is very danger­ hind bushes in order to catch offending ous and the practice is increasing alarmingly. motorists. Though the prime duty of the police force in this State is not tax gather­ I see it ·every day--cars weaving in and out of the traffic, on one side and the ing, but law enforcement, I believe that other, regardless of the danger . to others. some officers are being used to gather There will certainly be some serious acci­ revenue rather than to do their correct job of law enforcement. dents from this growing habit, unless it is stopped immediately. To my mind there Over the October holiday week-end some should be no passing on the left at all, larrikins arrived in Terrigal and were mak­ irrespective of marked traffic lanes or any­ ing a considerable nuisance of themselves thing else. I admit that on the Sydney for a time. The local police, who were Harbour Bridge, which probably saw the not numerically strong enough to cope with beginning of this practice, it may be neces­ the situation, radioed for assistance from sary to permit passing on the left in order the central police office at Gosford. The to get the traffic over the bridge as soon flying squad was out at Terrigal within a as possible. But on the roads there should reasonable time and the disturbance was be no necessity for passing on the left of quelled quickly. This sort of occurrence another vehicle. I urge the Government to is increasing in beach resorts, particularly investigate this matter and to act quickly in my electorate. As a matter of fact, this before there is considerable agitation in the group of larrikins was hunted away from community and, probably, further loss of another area, which is represented in this life. Mr. H. E. Jackson] Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962] Estimates, 1962-1963 1155 Mr. WEILEY (Clarence) [8.48]: I the Clarence River. It is the centre of a notice under item B2 of the Estimate for v~ry big timb~r industry. One can appre­ the Police Department that an amount of ciate from this that there is a real need £19,750 has been allocated for expenditure for a police station in the town. this year on rental, maintenance, altera­ tions; additions and renewals of police When it was first known that the Police buildings. On behalf of the pe·ople of Department intended 1to close the station my electorate, I want to voice a protest there was a united protest from the Grafton against the closing of the South Grafton council, the Copmanhurst Shire Council police station. This move is false economy the Nymboida Shire Council and almost and will have a detrimental effect. It will all other public bodies in the district. It deprive the area of the benefit of a police will be apparent to all hon. members who station, with all that that means. The local have country towns in their electorates population of over 5,000 will lose the pro­ that it is important to have a police station tection and convenience of a police station in South Grafton, because people rely on functioning within their town. It is in­ ~heir police station for many things, includ­ credible that such an important centre as mg the issue of motor drivers' licences food South Grafton should be deprived of a re~ief, stock permits, mining warden;' per­ police station after having had one for mits and other important items of business. nearly 100 years. The South Grafton police Instead of being able to walk into an office station is a fine building with quarters re­ in the heart of their own ·town, as they cently renovated at a cost of £2,000. Now have been able to do for many years, the the department has decided, for no apparent South Grafton people have to go across reason, that it should be closed, and this the bridge, which is about half a mile has actually happened. long, and another half a mile to the Grafton police station. This is causing a great deal Some idea of the effect on the area is of inconvenience. gained from the fact that closing of the police station will leave without protection One of the most important functions of or supervision, except for an occasional the police station at South Grafton was motor patrol, three main roads to the New assisting in time of flood. South Grafton England Tablelands-the old Glen Innes is a low-lying area and, due to the failure road of 108 miles, the Armidale road of of the levee banks that formerly kept all 128 miles, and the new Gwydir Highway of but major floods out of the town, it is 106 miles. South Grafton is in the heart frequently flooded. At these times the of the. cattle country. The stockyards there public urgently need the services of a centre have a turnover of more than £5,000,000 where they can obtain reliable information worth of cattle a year, and one can well and thel'e are qualified and experienced imagine the amount of work done at the people who can advise, distribute flood re­ South Grafton police station issuing cattle lief, arrange for rescues and all the other travel permits. It is in a tick area, and functions that arise at such times. The all the movements of cattle have to be South Grafton people are now deprived of supervised. Quite often there is trouble this service. The decision to close the at the tick gates. station is obviously wrong, because the fire For all the normal services of a police brigade considers it necessary to. have a station, the people of South Grafton are fire station at South Grafton as well as now dependent on the police station at at Grafton. All the banks have branches Grafton, which is over three-quarters of a in South Grafton as well as in Grafton. mile away across the river. South Grafton All kinds of other organisations are estab­ is an important shopping centre and is the lished on both sides of the river. There junction of the roads to the tablelands are two railway stations, and almost every that I have mentioned with the Pacific Highway which runs south to Sydney and public service that one can think of has an north to Brisbane. It is a big railway junc­ office in South Grafton as well as in tion and is at the head of navigation on Grafton. 1156 Estimates, 1962-1963 [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963

It is quite obvious that the Police De­ Over the years I have noted a marked partment should maintain an office in South increase in the number of non-commissioned Grafton, especially as it has suitable pre­ officers, particularly sergeants, in propor­ mises there that have recently been reno­ tion to the number of constables in the vated and are conveniently situated. I hope service. The budget papers reveal that out that the Police Department, when it realises of a total constabulary of 5,810, 1,397 are the great loss in efficiency that will result sergeants, 24 per cent of the whole. About frorn depriving South Grafton Clf this ser­ 2.6 per cent are commissioned officers. In vice, will find enough money in the Esti­ the general establishment, those who are mates to reopen the station. The closing of doing various duties throughout the service it is to the detriment of South Grafton and total 476 and represent 7 per cent of the also, to some extent, of Grafton, because whole force. The total cost is £8,881,000. the station at Grafton was built in about It is interesting to reflect on the develop­ 1882 and has had little or no noney spent ments that have taken place in the past ten on it. It has exactly 8 feet of counter years. Ten years ago the administrative space where police officers can attend to section of the general establishment com­ the public. Therefore, I ask that the police prised 335 officers, representing 6.6 per station at South Grafton be reopened cent of the whole. The hon. member for because it is necessary for the convenience Manly referred to duties performed by the and protection of the people of the district. constabulary generally and said that cer­ tain of their duties could be fulfilled by Mr. CROSS (Georges River) [8.56]: I others, thus releasing more constables for am especially interested in the allocation of employment on outside duties. In 1950-51, almost £9,000,000 to the police force be­ ten years ago, the general establishment cause, being the son of a sergeant of police, represented 6.6 per cent of the whole. Non­ I recall the days when my home was a commissioned officers then represented 21 police station·. There was no official police per cent of the whole, but today aggregate station in Hurstville in my infant days, and 24 per cent. In 1941, when this Govern­ I recall the activities of the eight officers ment assumed office, there were non-com­ who came and went from our home about missioned officers, sergeants, of three ranks. their respective duties. I recall, also, the Mr. REX JACKSON: There are three ranks amount of work that was done by the of sergeants today, too. officer in charge of police and the older members of the family. Hurstville was a Mr. CROSS: That is so. They were fairly big district and it was not uncommon specifically noted in the Colonial Secretary's for my mother and one of the elder boys report for that year, the police force not then to deliver messages to constables on the being under the administration of the beat. My brother may have had to run for Premier. They represented 20 per a mile or a mile and a half searching until cent of the whole. There has been he found the particular constable and de­ a definite trend towards the appoint­ livered a message so that the work of the ment of more sergeants in proportion force could go on effectively. That work to the number of constables. The pro­ was done gratuitously. I have no recollec­ portionate increase represents a rise of 4 tion of my mother being paid anything for per cent. This is perhaps a desirable trend, the little courtesies that she bestowed upon for I should like to see everyone on the the police officers, in those days of highest possible scale, but nevertheless we courtesies, when they arrived in the morn­ must have a working force. I do not for ing and came back late at night at the con­ a moment suggest that sergeants do not clusion of their tour of duty. No recom­ work, for I see them working on point duty pense was made for the efforts of the family and everywhere else. We on this side have on behalf of the community ; it seemed to be accepted that the whole family of an been clamouring all the time, and I have officer in charge of a district where there been foremost in the campaign, for the was no station was in the service of the appointment of police constables in certain department districts. Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962] Estimates, 1962-1963 1157

The hon. member for Lakemba and I matters are important, and I wish to point have jointly made several approaches 'to the out to the Premier the need for increasing Premier with a view of increasing the the strength of the force. The present number of police at Herne Bay, who have Budget provides for a force of 6,286. for a number of years been housed in tem­ As the bon. member for Manly said, porary accommodation, since the military much of the work performed by constables, left the site and the area became a housing senior constables and sergeants in police settlement under the control of the Minister boxes and police stations could be per­ for Housing and Minister for Co-operative formed by members of the administrative Societies. The bon. member for Lakemba staff. Even if the administrative staff has and I have advocated the building of a increased to 7 per cent of the whole, com­ police station and the \1inister has made pared with 6 per cent about ten years ago, available a site at Herne Bay in the it appears that it would be desirable to in­ Lakemba electorate. It has been a terrific crease it still further so that more men job to obtain an increase in the strength could be made available for outside duties of the force in this rapidly growing area The police force is perhaps the most im­ where there has been what one might de­ portant service provided by the Govern­ scribe as a population explosion. A fine, ment. I was brought up in an atmosphere modern business centre has been established of police administration, and in my private there and the business men and many others home knew its working very well. I ap­ representing various local organisations preciate, therefore, the value and variety of have asked for the establishment of a police the work that the police do. I maintain that station and for increased police protection. still better use could be made of these men Up to date, the best we have been able to by increasing the number of administrative do, after clamouring for four years for an improvement, has been to get a site allotted staff, by installing modern plant, by build­ by the Housing Commission on which a ing police stations in important areas in the police station will eventually be built. I country and in the metropolis, and by con­ refer to this because of the growing need trolling the force on a basis different from for an increased work force in the service. the method now employed. The Police Association has repeatedly re­ Mr. CHAFFEY (Tamworth) [9.10]: A quested the Government to increase police short time ago when sitting at my desk strength by something like 1,000 men. This Budget provides for an increase not of doing some research to prepare ammuni­ 1,190 but of a mere 119. I have clamoured tion for future debates I was listening over also for increased police strength at Mort­ the communication system to the Leader dale, a very old-established centre, which of the Opposition speaking on this Esti­ at present has only a police box. For years mate about staff problems with which he is the people have strongly advocated the es­ confronted and his difficulties in being able tablishment of a police station in this im­ to do his duty as fully as he should like. portant centre. Now, five constables are stationed there to serve an area with a Since last Friday week I have been endea­ population bordering on 50,000, and, thanks vouring to obtain an appointment with the merely to the law-abiding characteristics of Premier to discuss with him the matter of the people, the police are able to manage. staff assistance for the Leader of the However, there is a need to increase the Country Party. I have been anxiously strength, especially in the number of mem­ awaiting word about when I should have bers of the force who are able to perform everyday duties. The ratio of the highest an opportunity to confer with him on the rank of non-commissioned officers is in­ matter. I cannot let this Estimate go creasing and has increased over the period through without placing on record the facts by between 4 per cent and 5 per cent, yet concerning this problem, for I shall lose we cannot get enough constables to perform the opportunity when the Estimate has been the duties that are so necessary. These dealt with. 1158 Estimates, 1962-1963 [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963

On 24th November, 1960, the Leader of made available and though there is no ques­ the Country Party, who is overseas attend­ tion about the efficiency of the lady con­ ing a conference of the Commonwealth Par­ cerned, one can imagine her difficulty in liamentary Association, wrote to the Pre­ coming into an entirely strange atmosphere mier at considerable length-in fact three and being required to deal with subject- . foolscap pages-setting out the problems matter with which she was not familiar, and confronting the Leader of the Country without any knowledge of the filing system Party in attempting to deal adequately with in use. Any reasonable person will realise the responsibilities imposed on him, and re­ how impossible it was for her to work effec­ questing a service commensurate with his tively under such conditions. position as leader of a party having ten or more members and covering the whole of The Leader of the Country Party pointed the State. Not having received a reply, he out that while he was absent overseas at wrote again to the Premier on 7th March, the conference of the Commonwealth Par­ 1961. This letter was acknowledged on liamentary Association during this present 22nd March, when he was informed that sitting of Parliament, his personal secretary his previous submission was still receiving would be taking her annual holidays. Here consideTation. On 5th May, 1961, he wrote is a difficult situation confronting a major again, still asking for an answer to the political party. The leader and deputy letter that he had sent six months earlier leader must continually watch develop­ on 24th November, 1960. Ultimately be ments, and be able to check back quickly received a reply from the Premier, dated over records so that they may deal with the 23rd June, 1961, to the effect that the Gov­ work of the House efficiently. Yet this ernment could not see its way clear to must now be done in the knowledge that approve his request. in about a fortnight from now the personal secretary will be away on holidays and The Leader of the Country Party is pro­ nobody will be available with any know­ vided by the Legislature with a personal ledge of the work that has been done pre­ secretary. When opportunity permits, this viously. Moreover, the replacement will same lady does any work that I require to have to attempt to pick up the continuity be done. I myself wrote to Mr. Speaker, of the work and handle an unfamiliar fil­ seeking additional clerical assistance so that ing system. I am sure all hon. members I could cope with my work adequately. will understand that in these circumstances Between us we maintain something like 700 it will be virtually impossible for the re­ files. An idea of how much work we must placement to be fully effective, no matter do can be gained from the fact that we how many hours a person applies himself deal with matters falling within the ad­ to the task. ministration of sixteen Ministers of the Crown. Apart from that we have matters The position is completely out of balance ·concerning our own electorates and the when it is contrasted with that applying to electoral problems that confront us as or­ Ministers of the Crown, who have their dinary members of Parliament. A con­ departmental officers readily available to siderable amount of recording work must them to undertake quick research for them be done so that material will be ready for and collect data and other factual informa­ quick reference when all manner of sub­ tion that is necessary for them when deal­ jects come up for debate in this Chamber. ing with matters brought before the Cham­ ber. Ministers, as they have demonstrated, On 6th July, 1961, the Le·ader of the can be most effective when they have ready Country Party referred the Premier to his access to accurate records. The Govern­ previous correspondence and pointed out to ment should recognise the party leadership him what happens in the event of injury or responsibilities of a person who is faced sickness keeping the personal secretary away with the task of having to switch from from work for a fortnight. This has hap­ matters associated with one government de­ pened and nobody had any knowledge of partment to another according to the sub­ the filing system. A casual amanuensis was ject-matter that is being debated. Mr. Chaffey] Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OCT., 1962] Estimates, 1962-1963 1159

Unfortunately, I have not been able to made from time to time. We are denied discuss this matter with the Premier per­ the right of a counter presentation. I men­ sonally, and so I must take this opportunity tion this to show how unbalanced the posi­ of placing the matter on record. On many tion is, and to emphasise the extent to occasions it falls to the lot of the leader which the Government fails to allow those of a political party to attend public func­ who have the responsibility of presenting tions and meetings of a political nature. the o.ther side the opportunity to dis­ What happens when there is a by-election charge their parliam~ntary responsibilities. in a country electorate, such as the one I wanted to put that on record and I have last year at Liverpool Plains? The Leader been prompted to express my attitude in of the Country Party, because of the nature the matter by the remarks of the Leader of the by-election, was virtually the leader of the Opposition, who pointed out the diffi­ of the party in opposition to the Govern­ culty under which he is operating. Members ment in that campaign. of the Country Party themselves contribute to maintain the party's own private secre­ Mr. REx JACKSON: It was not very effec­ tary. Because many hon. members of the tive opposition. Country Party are away from Parliament Mr. CHAFFEY: The Country Party won for long periods attending to their electoral the seat, but I was not inviting ridiculous responsibilities in the outer parts of the interjections from the hon. member for State they want someone here in Sydney Bulli. I was trying to state a case that to act on their behalf and accordingly I would expect reasonable men to consider. maintain here a private secretary. However, I should not expect reasonable Vote agreed to. consideration from the hon. member for The CHAIRMAN: Order! Before propos­ Bulli. The Leader of the Country Party ing the next Estimate, which is "Minister and his colleagues must fight a campaign for Transport" I must draw the attention with all the big guns and equipment on of the Committee to the fact that during the Government side-Ministers and their last year's debates on the vote of the Min­ staff, as well as motor cars, all provided ister for Transport hon. members raised at the taxpayers' expense. The leader of matters that were far more appropriate for the party opposing the Government has discussion when the Estimates for each of no facilities to state the Opposition's case. the transport business undertakings came This is somewhat irrelevant to my argu­ before the Committee. This practice de­ ment but a peculiar situation arises in re­ prives hon. members of time to comment on spect of these Monday night broadcasts the votes for other portfolios. I am sure all over the Australian Broadcasting Commis­ hon. members will agree with me -on this sion. Hon. members in Opposition can be point. It is suggested that when the vote subjected to all sorts of personal attacks by the Premier. Sometimes the remarks from Consolidated Revenue Fund for the could be regarded almost as defamation Minister for Transport is before the Com­ with malicious intent. mittee, as it will be in a moment, remarks should be confined to matters affecting the The CHAIRMAN: Order! head office administration of the Minister. Mr. CHAFFEY: I can link it up. I want hon. members to take particular The CHAIRMAN: Order! This has no­ notice of this. Comments in respect of thing whatever to do with the Estimate. so transport business undertakings should be I ask you not to continue along that line. reserved until the Estimates of expenditure of each of the undertakings are before the Mr. CHAFFEY: I realise this is a close Committee. Government Railways Fund, point. I raised it only because staff is pro­ vided for the preparation of that broad­ Government Railways Renewals Fund, Road cast material yet no opportunity is given Transport and Traffic Fund, Metropoiitan to the Opposition to counter what we re­ Transport Trust General Fund and the New­ gard as completely improper statements castle and District Transport General Fund 1160 Estimates, 1962-1963 [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963 all can be debated under their main head­ letter in which he said that he still had ings. I again ask hon. members to be brief no information for me, but that an investi­ in their remarks on this Estimate. It will gation was proceeding. Since World War help hon. members as well as help me. II no fewer than seven reports have been made to this Government on transport in MINISTER FOR TRANSPORT the metropolitan area. However, there has Proposed vote, £488,293. not been any constructive result at all from any one of the reports. Unless something Mr. COX (Vaucluse) [9.26]: I wish to is achieved soon the money paid for those deal primarily with moneys made available investigations has gone down the drain. Ob­ for investigations and the administration viously, a large proportion of the money of investigations by the Ministry of Trans­ spent on these investigations over the past port. The estimate of £30,676 for an in­ fifteen or seventeen years has been wasted, vestigation into eastern suburbs transport is as nothing practical or useful has come out simply one of the many investigations under­ of them. taken from time to time by the ministry or by the department under the direction of In order that it may be on record I shall the Minister. I am most interested in this detail the series of transport inquiries, and one. I raised this matter only a few days their subsequent reports made available to ago, and I said that I believed the time the Government. Shortly after World War had come when the Minister should take II a report was furnished following a visit hon. members into his confidence and say overseas by Mr. Swift, who was then Audi­ when the results of this investigation would tor-General. In 1949 the government of be made available. We can only presume, the day called for a report from the English because we know of no other investigation transport consultants, Sinclair, Andrews and at the moment, that the estimate of £30,676 Ellen. In 1956 we had the Ebasco re­ relates to a report that is to be made by port. Then Mr. Shoebridge, one of our De Leuw, Cather & Company. The history commissioners for transport, went overseas of this, like many other matters relating to and after he came back he made a report. transport investigation, is becoming a little Following that, Mr. Enticknap, the Minister tedious and tonight I make a further for Transport of that day, made a report protest. after a visit overseas. Then one of the The report was called for some time last private members of this House, the hon. year and the Government gave a brief to member for Dulwich Hill, went overseas De Leuw, Cather & Company, an Ameri­ and upon his return he made a report. can firm of traffic or transport consultants. That was the sixth report. The seventh Without going into details, I remind hon. report called for by the Labor Government, members that the Minister saw fit at the or made available to it by its advisers since beginning of the year to call together repre­ World War II, is De Leuw, Cather & Com­ sentatives of various organisations as well as hon. members representing the areas pany's report. Nothing of a constructive affected. The conference was held and the nature has been evident as a result of the investigation then proceeded. It was then reports, either to Parliament or to the pub­ presumed that at some time in the not too lic, so it may be assumed that a large distant future some information would be proportion of the money spent on the inves­ made available. None has been forthcom­ tigations which culminated in the reports ing. I wrote to the Minister about the has been wasted. I do not· say that the middle of the year but have received no information. I had acknowledgment of my information contained in the report was letter, as the Minister pointed out recently, not good and could not have been used, but in the acknowledgment the Minister but there is not much evidence that the intimated that he had not been kept in­ recommendations in the reports were fol­ formed of the progress of the investigation. lowed in a constructive way. He was not able to give me any immediate information. Then I received a further Mr. REX JACKSON: That is not so. Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962] Estimates, 1962-1963 1161

Mr. COX: If the hon. member for Bulli last general election. Therefore, we may does not agree with me he will have an assume that he knows something about opportunity later to tell us anything that transport. That being so, I am amazed has been done by the Government. There that the hon. member for Vaucluse knows was no provision in last year's Estimates for nothing about what the Government did investigations into transport, although following the recommendations in the £14,735 was expended, and this year the Ebasco report. Some of those recom­ estimate is £30,000-odd. Time is going on mendations have been implemented. One and the time has now certainly come for of 1hem, which I believe is appreciated by the Minister to give up his complacency. bon. members of the Country Party, was The Minister for Transport is very fond of the introduction of diesel locomotives. sitting and smirking when han. members talk of transport, but it would be far better · Mr. Cox: That has not helped the metro­ for the people if he told us whether we politan area and if the Minister reads could expect to get something from the Hansard tomorrow he will see that I spoke latest firm of consultants, and what action of the metropolitan area. is likely to be taken as a result of their re­ Mr. McMAHON: The Ebasco re­ port to 'the Government. When does he ex­ port also recommended electrification pect to get the De Leuw, Cather & Com­ of the northern line to Gosford. That pany report, and when will it be made was done, and that benefits the metropolitan available to bon. members? area. It has brought great benefits to the Mr. McMAHON (Balmain), Minister Gosford district and has provided fast trans­ for Transport [9.35]: The han. member for port between the metropolitan area and Gosford. The bon. member for Vaucluse· Vaucluse has heard many statements by also asked when we could expect a report the Government-- from De Leuw, Cather & Company, which Mr. WILLIS: Is the Minister going over­ is carrying out an extensive investigation seas also? into transport in the metropolitan area, in­ cluding the eastern suburbs. Mr. McMAHON: I wish I had made an overseas visit when the bon. member for Mr. Cox: It must be an extensive investi­ Earlwood went abroad. We are still wait­ gation, as it has taken so long. ing for his report. The hon. member for Mr. McMAHON: Some of the han. Vaucluse mentioned seven reports, including member's statements were inaccurate, and a report made by the Minister for Trans­ I assure him that he and other hon. mem­ port of the day and one by the bon. mem­ bers will have an early opportunity to see· ber for Dulwich Hill. I remind him that part of the De Leuw, Cather report based the bon. member for Dulwich Hill under­ on an accurate investigation. The com­ took a trip overseas at his own expense pany estima1ed that it would take about and was not requested by the Government thirteen months to complete its investiga­ to report on transport. tions, which were started only in Novem­ Mr. Cox: Nevertheless he made a report. ber of last year. We have not received progress reports, so the hon. member for Mr. McMAHON: Just as we hope the Vaucluse indulges in not constructive but hon. member for Earlwood will. destructive criticism. Mr. Cox: And the bon. member for Mr. Cox: This is the first time the Minis­ Dulwich Hill was one of the Government's ter has told us that the investigation would advisers on transport. Indeed, he was stated to be so by the previous Premier­ take thirteen months. At least we have· and the Minister knows it. got tha·t out of him. Mr. McMAHON: The han. member for Mr. McMAHON: The hon. member Vaucluse was selected to be Minister for said that I was rather complacent, but I Transport if the Opposition had won the point out that the Government has taken 1162 Estimates, 1962-1963 [ASSEMBLY] Estimates, 1962-1963 some constructive action whereas the hon. have plenty of opportunities later to deal member talks of transport without arriv­ with such matters as the railways fund, the ing at any conclusive suggestion. renewals fund, and the transport and traffic fund, but under this Estimate he must not Mr. Cox: I asked a question. go beyond the scope of the Estimate of the Mr. McMAHON: It is most important Minister for Transport. for the hon. member to remember that it Mr. CRAWFORD: I know what you are was originally announced in the meeting aiming at, Mr. Chairman. I point out in at the Mitchell Library that •local-govern• all sincerity that if I move the amendment, ment bodies and other interested people I do not wish to be taken as censuring the would be consulted by De Leuw, Cather & Commissioner for Railways when speaking Company. Those bodies said they had not of the Government Railways Fund. It is my been brought into previous transport discus­ intention to censure the Minister for Trans­ sions and were interested because of 1heir port, under whose direction and control the future planning ; that is, whether to develop Department of Railways is run. I want to high-density housing, for example. De Leuw, place the blame where it really belongs­ Cather & Company expect to submit a re­ within the administration of the Minister port within the scheduled time, and the for Transport. The Minister for Transport experts are progressing ·towards that end. has sent to every hon. member a two-page It is believed that the report will be avail­ document, the first two or three Jines of able to all hon. members about the middle which read: of December. The Minister for Transport is responsible for the overall administration of the following Mr. CRAWFORD (Barwon) [9.40]: Mr. Departments:- Chairman, I am a little doubtful whether, (a) Ministry of Transport-Head Office. according to your ruling when this Estimate (b) The Department of Railways. came before the Committee, I shall be in (c) The Department of Government order in doing what I want to do. Perhaps Transport. if I put the position you will clarify it for (d) The Department of Motor Transport. me. My intention is to move that the Esti­ (e) The Sydney Harbour Transport Board. mate of the Minister for Transport be re­ (f) Certain aspects of the Police Traffic duced by £1 because of the failure to Branch. implement certain things in the various The Minister has said that he is responsible transport undertakings of which he is the for the overall administration of those un­ ministerial head. I do not wish, for in­ dertakings. stance, to censure the Commissioner for Railways. I think he is doing an excel­ The CHAIRMAN: Move the amendment. lent job, but he is restricted by Gov­ Mr. CRAWFORD: I move: ernment policy and direction from the Min­ ister. Therefore I ask whether you would That the proposed vote, £488,293, be re­ duced bv £1. accept an amendment from me to that ef­ fect. The reason for it will then follow, The matters I shall bring before the Com­ that the Minister has not allowed something mittee come distinctly within the policy to happen in the various transport framework of the Government, and there­ undertakings. fore within the administration of the Min­ ister for Transport, at whose door-not that The CHAIRMAN: Order! That will be of the Commissioner for Railways-the quite in order. However, the hon. member blame must be laid. My first complaint is must not go outside the scope of this of the way in which the Minister has im­ particular Estimate-the Minister for plemented a very sound proposal for the Transport. He must not discuss the rail­ carriage of wool from the wool shed to the ways and other such matters, as I have wool store. I do not know whether many already said. If he confines himself to the hon. members are aware of what is happen· Estimate of the Minister for Transport, he ing in some parts of the State. In the will be in order. The hon. member will North-west of New South Wales, on the Estimates, 1962-1963 [23 OcT., 1962] Estimates, 1962-1963 1163 railway from Mungindi through Moree to the Garah railway station has not been Inverell, the Government and the Minister used as much as in the past, the local for Transport have implemented a scheme carrier has lost much of his business and under which an overall rate is given for the the staff there will probably be reduced. transport of wool from the wool shed to the Of course, there will probably be a corres­ wool store. This in the main is an excel­ ponding increase in rail fr