Scottish Parliament Knife Crime Debate
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SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT KNIFE CRIME DEBATE Friday 23 January 2009 Report Prepared by the Scottish Parliament Official Report CONTENTS Friday 23 January 2009 Col. KNIFE CRIME DEBATE...........................................................................................................................................1 Opening Remarks............................................................................................................................................1 What is the cost of knife crime?.......................................................................................................................5 Why does a person carry a knife?.................................................................................................................14 What is the law doing? ..................................................................................................................................38 What does the future hold? ...........................................................................................................................57 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF PARTICIPANTS A Bill Aitken MSP (Glasgow) (Con) M Paul Macdonald (Macdonald Armouries) Kathleen Marshall (Scotland’s Commissioner for Children B Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab) and Young People) Mr Frank McAveety MSP (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab) Jon Bannister (Scottish Centre for Crime and Justice Ian McDonough (Sacro) Research) Gerard McEneany (Children’s Panel Chairmen’s Group) Robert Brown MSP (Glasgow) (LD) Jacqueline McGhie (News of the World Save Our Streets Campaign) C Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan Linda McGlynn (Urban Fox) (Violence Reduction Unit) Maureen McGonigle Assistant Chief Constable Campbell Corrigan Stuart McKenzie (Royal College of Nursing) (Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland) Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab) Alex Cunningham (Aberlour Child Care Trust) Richard McShane (Bartara Association) Wendy Metcalfe (Greenock Telegraph) D Major Alan Dixon (Salvation Army) Nanette Milne MSP (North East Scotland) (Con) Nigel Don MSP (North East Scotland) (SNP) Angela Morgan (Includem) Morag Driscoll (Scottish Child Law Centre) John Muir Craig Murray (Howard League Scotland) E David Edgar Gordon Ellis (Scottish Youth Parliament) N Gina Nowak (YouthLink Scotland) John Evans (Victim Support Scotland) Fergus Ewing MSP (Minister for Community Safety) P Mark Paterson Jayde Peacock (Urban Fox) G Reverend Ian Galloway (Church of Scotland) John Pollock (Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland) Marlyn Glen MSP (North East Scotland) (Lab) Trish Godman (Deputy Presiding Officer) Dr Colin Gray (Royal College of Psychiatrists) R Councillor Luciano Rebecchi (Inverclyde Council) Yvonne Robson (Association of Directors of Social Work) H Robin Harper MSP (Lothians) (Green) Gillian Henderson (Scottish Children’s Reporter S Britta Schuessler Administration) Sandy Scrimgeour (Street Pastors) Amy Homes (Ipsos MORI Opinion) Clare Sharp (Scottish Centre for Social Research) Hayley Hughes (Prince’s Trust Scotland) Michelle Silvester (Mothers Against Murder and Aggression) PC Geoff Smith (‘Campus Cop’) K Alan Kennedy (Urban Fox) Thomas Sneddon (Urban Fox) Stephen Kidd (Scottish Youth Parliament) David Koppel (Medics Against Violence) T Brian Taylor Lesley Thomson (Area Procurator Fiscal for Glasgow) L John Lamont MSP (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con) Professor Alastair Leyland (MRC Social and Public Health Sciences Unit) U Gregor Urquhart (Young Scot) Peter Lockhart (Law Society of Scotland) John Logue (Crown Officer & Procurator Fiscal Service) W Kate Whaley (Mothers Against Murder and Aggression) 1 23 JANUARY 2009 2 As I said, this is an open debate. Should you wish to speak, you should simply raise your hand. Scottish Parliament Once you have been invited to speak, I ask you to wait until the red light on your microphone comes on before you speak, as I had to do, and to state Friday 23 January 2009 your name and where you are from or the name of your organisation. I also ask for some patience [THE DEPUTY PRESIDING OFFICER opened the initially, while our broadcasters get used to where meeting at 10:16] each of you is sitting—they were a bit unsure about where I was sitting. Please stand when you Knife Crime Debate speak, so that we can all see you. I am delighted that Brian Taylor, BBC Scotland’s Opening Remarks political editor, is here to help to facilitate the debate and discussion. I invite Frank McAveety, The Deputy Presiding Officer (Trish who is the convener of the Public Petitions Godman): Good morning. My name is Trish Committee, to make a few introductory remarks, Godman and I am one of the Parliament’s Deputy before we hear from John Muir. Presiding Officers. I have the privilege of chairing today’s meeting. It is my pleasure to welcome you Mr Frank McAveety (Glasgow Shettleston) to the Scottish Parliament’s debating chamber for (Lab): Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding this Public Petitions Committee sponsored debate Officer. We normally face the Presiding Officer’s on knife crime. In particular, I welcome John Muir, chair when we speak, rather than people behind whose petition has brought us all here. us. The Scottish Parliament was founded on four I will identify a number of key issues, but first I principles: openness, accountability, the sharing of thank John Muir for lodging the petition. It was not power and equal opportunities. Ten years on, easy for him to come to the Public Petitions those founding principles continue to underpin the Committee, but he made a formidable work of the Parliament and its members. The presentation to us. The reaction from committee Public Petitions Committee has been one of the members, many of whom are at the back of the big successes of the Parliament in its first 10 chamber, was a desire to explore the problem of years, as it has given you—the people—the knife crime in greater depth. chance directly to influence legislation and We recognise that knife crime will be tackled in decision making, just as John Muir has done. other ways—for example through policy The Public Petitions Committee has organised interventions and legislation—but as a committee, the debate to provide a forum for each of you to we felt it to be important to bring together some of have your say on how we should address the the people in Scotland who experience knife problem of knife crime. There are, of course, many crime-related difficulty or who have to manage the issues that you will want to raise during today’s issues that the victims of knife crime confront. proceedings and I want to ensure that you have I welcome everyone to the Parliament. When we the opportunity to do so. For some of you, it will be debate such issues, the communications that we the first opportunity you have had to question receive are always quite compelling. Only last directly parliamentarians, Scottish Government week, I received a communication from someone ministers, the police and representatives of the who was hoping to attend today’s event, in which legal profession who are among us today. she summed up the challenge that all of us in Everyone here has an equal voice. The debate Scotland face as we try to deal with knife crime. is an opportunity for views to be expressed, She had already lost one member of her family to questions to be asked and opinions to be knife crime when another member of her family challenged. Some of you will have had close became a victim of it—the matter is being dealt personal experience of knife crime. You may hear with in court. She said: things said that you will not want to hear, and you “at the end of the day anything I have to say will go in may hear expressed views that you do not agree one ear and out the other … nobody cares.” with. However, I ask you to listen with an open mind to what each person has to say. The format I am extremely concerned that someone feels that for today’s proceedings has been designed to way. If we can make progress in addressing such encourage open and frank discussion—it is about concerns, we might be able to reassure the wider asking questions and bringing out answers. This is public that we are facing in the right direction when your Parliament. I hope that you will continue to it comes to knife crime. engage with the Parliament in the future. We will explore the key challenges that are faced by people in communities, and their 3 23 JANUARY 2009 4 experiences. I welcome those who have been relate to real people and are not an academic courageous enough to come to explain what knife board game. crime means to them and to the communities in Each and every one of the statistics represents which they live. I welcome, too, those who have to a real victim—a person whose life has been taken deal with the issue in a professional capacity and or shattered along with the lives of their family and through support work: you will give us an insight friends. Blame will achieve little and political in- into what we need to do. I also welcome people fighting will achieve nothing. Systemic failure by including John Carnochan, who is sitting beside us—the Scottish nation—to remove decisively the me, who is making efforts to intervene much menace of knife crime in terms that criminal earlier in the behaviour patterns of—mainly, but recidivists understand, will mean more needless not exclusively—young men. He wants us to be carnage on the streets of Scotland. The main able to intervene much more effectively so that we question for this assembly