Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 27 OCTOBER 1966

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Questions (27 OCTOBER] Questions 1165

Answers:- ( 1 ) "There are no provisions in the 'Co-operative Housing Societies Acts' dealing with the conversion of leasehold land to freehold land." (2) "Section 31 of the Acts provides that subject to the Acts and the rules of the Society the business and operations of a Society shall be managed and con­ trolled by a board of directors. In this connection Model Rule 14 for a Co­ operative Housing Society reads as follows: 'The Board may accept or reject an application for membership or for additional shares and need not assign any reasons for its action.' I would be prepared to take the matter up with the Townsville Co-operative Housing Society to ascertain if they have had any applications from members desiring that their leases be con­ verted vo freehold and the action taken by the Society in such cases and whether any special circumstances have arisen."

APPLICATION FOR AUTHORITY TO PROSPECT Mr. Coburn, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Mines,- ( 1) What action is a prospective appli­ cant for a prospecting lease of a mineral lode required to take? (2) What are the costs of and the general conditions appertaining to such a lease? Answers:- "It is not clear whether the Honourable Member refers to a mining lease or an Authority to Prospect. Broadly the following data applies:- ( 1) "If a mining lease, the applicant should first peg the ground then apply on the prescribed form to the nearest Warden. For an Authority to Prospect he applies THURSDAY, 27 OCTOBER, 1966 by letter direct to the Minister." (2) "For a mining lease he deposits survey fee and rental as prescribed in Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, the Mining Acts. General information Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair concerning Authorities to Prospect is con­ at 11 a.m. tained in a leaflet issued by my Department and I now table for the information of the QUESHONS Honourable Member a copy of such leaflet. A complete Answer to this Question would FREEHOLDING OF LAND BY MEMBERS OF be voluminous and if the Honourable CO-OPERATIVE HOUSING SOCIETIES Member desires such he might care to Mr. Aikens, pursuant to notice, asked The direct a letter to me." Minister for Works,- Paper. Whereupon Mr. Camm laid upon ( 1) Have Co-operative Housing Socie­ the Table of the House the leaflet referred to. ties, operating under the statutory authority of this State, any power to prevent home­ PURCHASE OF LAND BY OVERSEAS buyers from converting their home allot­ INVESTORS ments from leasehold to freehold? Mr. Graham, pursuant to notice, asked (2) If not, will he cause inquiries to The Premier,- be made into the actions of the Towns­ ( I) Has his attention been drawn to an ville Co-operative Housing Society, which advertisement in the Winnipeg Free-Press, is preventing home-owners from taking Manitoba, Canada, dated August 3, 1966, advantage of the freeholding legislation headed "Australian Land Boom", addressed as passed by this Parliament? to investors, brokers and ranchers and 1166 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

reading "Prime land for farming, grazing accepted that smoking is the chief con­ or hold for profit. These prices tributor to lung cancer, what significant will never be repeated. All land action has been taken in recent years to less than $10 per acre. Many American acquaint the public, particularly students, and European firms have already in regard to this dreaded disease? bought . . . Don't miss the opportunity of (2) Is he aware that in New South a lifetime. Minimum purchase 100 acres. Wales a kit on smoking is supplied to Terms. Further information from National schools which sets out a number of Charter Association, 8730 Wilshire Boule­ illustrations, lessons and examples? vard, Beverley Hills, California, U.S.A."? ( 3) Is any service of a similar nature (2) In view of the Government's available in Queensland schools? declared policy relating to the freeholding of land and the possibility that the Answers:- advertisement could result in a great influx ( 1) "Since as early as 1959 the Queens­ of overseas capital for the purchase of land Health Education Council with the land, which possibly may be situated in approval of my Department, has conducted Queensland, would the Government raise through the schools a campaign to make any objection to the purchase of these young people aware of the dangers of lands by overseas investors? smoking. Lesson material was prepared for the guidance of teachers and a pamphlet Answer:- was produced for distribution to the pupils. (1 and 2) "I am not aware of the The Health Education Manual prepared advertisement in the Winnipeg Free-Press by the Health Education Council and the referred to by the Honourable Member. Department of Education in collaboration Broadly, however, I can say that, provided introduces the dangers of smoking to school a prospective purchaser is eligible and pupils in the upper grades, while Tobacco otherwise qualified to hold any particular and Smoking' is one of the topics included type of tenure under the Land Acts, there in the Junior Course on Health in would be no objection as a matter of policy Secondary Schools. Here attention is to registration of transfer of interests in drawn to the smoking habit and to the lands held under the Land Acts. As far dangers arising therefrom. Following upon as the purchase by oversea investors of the demonstration of smoking machines at lands held as freehold is concerned, it is the Royal National Show in Brisbane in most unlikely, other considerations apart, 1964, the Health Education Council was that substantial areas could be acquired given approval to use these machines in all from existing owners at prices within the secondary schools. The campaign, with range purported to have been stated in the eight machines, will take about three years, advertisement." but many schools throughout the State already have been visited. The smoking machine demonstrates very effectively the extent of the combined effect of cancer SALE OF FIREARMS producing tars and nicotine in smoking. lVIr. Hanson, pursuant to notice, asked For the information of the Honourable The Minister for Education,- Member, the Assistant Health Officer at ( 1) Has his Department any know­ Gladstone recently took one of these ledge of the number of firearms sold machines to the State High School, Glad­ annually in Queensland? stone, where demonstrations were given to the students at that school." (2) Is there any co-operation between his Department, sports stores, rifle stores (2) "No." or any other retail outlets with regard to (3) "No." the recording of sales of firearms? If not, is any action contemplated by his Depart­ ment in this regard so as to protect the MECHANISED MAINTENANCE EQUIPMENT, public interest? RAILWAY DEPARTMENT Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked Answers:- The Minister for Transport,- (1) "No." ( 1) What are the types and the dates of the introduction of mechanical equip­ (2) "Yes. Sales of concealable firearms ment now in use on the Railway permanent are recorded. Sales of other firearms are way? not required to be recorded." (2) In respect to comparative figures of employees, to what extent has such PUBLICITY, SMOKING AND INCIDENCE OF mechanical equipment reduced employ­ LUNG CANCER ment in the maintenance section? lVIr. Hanson, pursuant to notice, asked The Answers:- Minister for Education,- ( 1) "The introduction of mechanical ( 1 ) In view of recent statements by equipment to the permanent way dates Dr. Emmerson Day and many other back to 1953. It would be difficult to list eminent authorities that it is now positively and identify for the purposes of answering Form of Questions [27 OCTOBER] Supply 1167

the Honourable Member's Question, the STAMP ACTS AND ANQriHER ACT variety and type of mechanised mainten­ AMENDMENT BILL ance equipment in use throughout the State, e.g. Tampers, Power Jacks, Ballast INITIATION Regulators, Adzing Machines, Drills and Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ Saws, Bulldozers, Graders, Liners and Spike Treasure.r): I move: Pullers." "That the House will, at its present sit­ (2) "Since 1953 there would ting, resolve itself into a Committee of undoubtedly be a reduction in the number the Whole to consider introducing a Bill of employees in the Maintenance Branch to amend the Stamp Acts, 1894 to 1965, to due to the introduction of this equipment make further provision with respect to and for other reasons. For the information the payment of duty on sales and pur­ of the Honourable Member, the number of chases of marketable securities, and in employees in the Maintenance Branch as other particulars, and to amend the State at June 30, 1953, and June 30, 1965, was Government Insurance Office (Queens­ 6,939 and 6,316 respectively." land) Acts, 1960 to 1965, in a certain particular." ANNUAL REPORT, COMMISSIONER FOR Motion agreed to. RAILWAYS BEEF CATTLE ROADS AGREEMENT Mr. Thackeray, pursuant to notice, asked BILL The Minister for Transport,- When will the annual report of the THIRD READING Commissioner for Railways for 1965-66 Bill, on motion of Mr. Camm, read a be tabled? third time. Answer:- SUPPLY "The Annual Report will be tabled shortly." RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE-EsTIMATES­ FIRST AND SECOND ALLOTTED DAYS PAPERS (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, The following papers were laid on the Greenslopes, in the chai.r) table:- Orders in Council under- EsTIMATES-IN-CHIEF, 1966-67 The Harbours Acts, 1955 to 1964. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION The Racing and Betting Acts, 1954 to 1965. CHIEF OFFICE Regulations under the Queensland Mar.ine Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis-Minister for Acts, 1958 to 1963. Education) (11.18 a.m.): I move- By-Melbourne Cup- The late Mr. J. D. Story gave almost a Mr. Nicklin: The hon. member should ask century of service to this State. He had a Mr. Speaker that question. remarkable career. He was born in 1869 and was 97 at the time of his death. One Mr. SPEAKER: Orde·r! For my part, I of the amazing features of his career was assure the hon. member the answer is "No". the fact that he held high and responsible 1168 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

positions at a very young age. He, like Sir of service to education that we should have Herbert Watkin, joined the Education Depart­ our appreciation recorded in discussing these ment at the very early age of 15, without the Estimates. benefit of high education. But these two Another great Queenslander-one who men, through their own abi1ity, energy and was educated in Brisbane, at "The Terrace"­ initiative, rose to occupy the highest position was the late Sir J ames Duhig, the former in the department. Roman Catholic Archbishop of Brisbane. He At the age of 35 Mr. Story was appointed was known as "James the builder", not acting Under Secretary of t:be Department of only for the many churches he built but also Public Instruction. Two years later, at the because of his great interest in education age of 37, he became the permanent Under and his earnest endeavour to provide educa­ Secretary of the Department of Public tional facilities for thos-e of his own church Instruction, the position now known as in almost every parish. He made the Director•General of Education. During the expansion of educational facilities for Roman years 1906 to 1920, when he served as head Catholic children one of his prime aims, and of the Department of Education, there he succeeded to the extent that, of the 73 occurred some of the greatest changes that parishes in Brisbane, 66 have parish have taken place in education in Queensland. schools. In the area of his diocese outside That period has been referred to as the golden Brisbane, 29 of the 32 parishes have parish age of education. Perhaps a great deal of schools. his work was done in association wiVh Sir James Blair, who was then Minister for He virtually achieved his objective of hav­ Education. ing a parish school in each parish. In what was his archdiocese, which now extends from It was during that period that State high Childers to Gatton, and down to Coolangatta, sohools were established throughout Queens­ almost 42,000 primary and secondary school­ land. Before Mr. Story was head of the children attend Roman Catholic schools. departme·nt only private schools were avail­ The ultimate effect of his great school-build­ able for secondary education. It was he ing programme is that it is now almost true who started the State 'high school system. to say that he achieved his greatest aim, He started the rural school system; he namely, that no Catholic child in the metro­ started vocational training; he also was politan area has to travel more than a mile largely instrumental in the foundation of to attend a Catholic school. tertiary education in Queensland. For over 50 years he se-rved the Queensland University It is not only in the field of primary and as a senator, and later as vice-chancellor. It secondary education that Sir James Duhig falls to the lot of few men to be the initiator deserves a place in our thoughts. He was of both secondary and tertiary educat•ion in a member of the Queensland University any State, or in any country. Senate for almost as long as Mr. Story. He served for half a century. Whilst he was While still a young man Mr. Story was a member, during all that period, he made a appointed Public Service Comm~ssioner, a great and notable contribution to the work position which he again held for almost a and development of the university senate. generation. On relinquishing Vhat position He gave encouragement in all fields of in 1939, when past the normal retiring age­ education. and when most people a:re prepared to sit back and review their life's work-he under­ I think it was due to his close friendship took in an honorary capacity the vice­ with the late Sir Reginald Halse, former chancellorship of the Queensland University, Anglican Archbishop of Brisbane, that there a position which he again held for another grew up an understanding among the various generation. churches-other churches come into this­ that was a distinctive feature of education in Here was a man who, one might say, for Queensland in the last decade. Nowhere in almost a generation was wa:s head of the Australia is there a better appreciation by Department of Education, for almost a each of the groups of the work that the generation was public service Commis•sioner, others do. That was due largely to the and after retirement and for another genera­ understanding and co-operation and, I sup­ tion, held the post of vice-chancellor of the pose, to use the modern term, the ecumenical Queensland University in an honorary attitude of these great churchmen whom capacity. During most of that period of Queensland was privileged to have for so 50 years he was chairman of the finance long. committee. A third notable person, with whom I was They were great and fruitful years in the perhaps more closely associated than any development of terHary education. By his of the others, is Sir Herbert Watkin, who leadership and ability Mr. Story was able started teaching as a pupil-teacher without to inspire the small academic staff, which the benefit of high-school education, who, gradually grew wivh the esrablishment of through his own industry, study and ability, more departments. He was able to inspire rapidly gained promotion and served as intense loyalty from his members and win assistant teacher, head teacher, principal and great respect from the public for the inspector. He ultimately became Director university. So I think it only fitting when a of Education, perhaps in the period of man has given the best part of a century education's most rapid growth. Hjs greatest Supply (27 OCTOBER] Supply 1169 love, of course, was the classroom. He was of the State-wide organisations whose mem­ essentially-first and last-a teacher. Where­ bers serve voluntarily, year after year in the ever possible, in moving around the State interests of education. on his administrative duties he got in front of a class and took the lesson. Nothing Then, of course, we have the thousands pleased him more than the classroom atmos­ of parents and citizens' organisations which phere. work week after week, the mothers in the tuckshops and the fathers in the working bees Not only did Sir Herbert make a valuable and in other fields of activity, taking an contribution to the advancement of education, interest in their schools and helping to provide and in the department itself, but he, too, some of the extras that are not provided by served for a very long time as a member of the Government. I claim that we have a better the university senate, as deputy chancellor. education system because the parents are He served on many other cultural organisa­ required to provide something. I should not tions. He took a keen interest in the arts, like to see the day when the parents stayed and on his retirement from the department at home and said, "Schooling is th~ Govern­ he accepted the task of chairing the com­ ment's responsibility. Let it prov1de every­ mittee set up to advise on the development thing. We will send our children along, ~nd of technical education in New Guinea and that will do," because a far better education Papua. It was a great shock to all who system prevails when the parents are brought knew him to hear of his untimely death. actively into association with the head For half a century he gave of his best-and teachers and the teachers. When parents his best was a very good best-in the interests work for the school, and their children see of the young people of Queensland. It is them taking that interest in the workings of not often that in the one period three great the schoo,], the children are likely to become men in the field of education suddenly are better students and better citizens. So there no longer with us. are these many thousands of people attached In paying a tribute to those who have to the schools throughout the State working passed on, I should also like to pay a tribute in a voluntary capacity. to the great many voluntary workers in the field of education. I do not know of any Then there are bodies, such as the Creche other social field-I might say "field of and Kindergarten Association, and, acting in social welfare"-in which so many people a different field, the Arts Council, again with are prepared to give up so much of their many members voluntarily giving a gr~at time without thought of remuneration-in a deal of their time. There are serv1ce purely voluntary capacity-to advance organisations, and those hon. members who education. travel in their own districts know that members of service organisations spend a Those hon. members who are associated great deal of time doing something for the with anyone who has been a membe'r of the kindergartens, the State schools, and the senate of the Queensland University know hi"h schools or for some bursary or scholar­ the great amount of time required to attend ship, or so'mething else that will further senate meetings and committee meetings, and education in those areas. to read the voluminous correspondence sent to members of the senate week after week In paying tribute to all of those people, I so that they can keep up to date with should like to mention my own and my developments and movements in the uni­ department's appreciatio~ _of the. coverage ~hat versity. So there are these people who Press racLio and telev1s1on g1ve educatiOn. willingly and gladly accept appointment to Ther~ is n~ dearth of opportunity around such bodies. this time of the year, when speech nights are In recent years we have had appointed a held. If an indication is given to those Technical Education Advisory Council and an mediums that a speech night is to be held. Agricultural Educational Advisory Council. an article containing the meat of the speeches Those two groups of men, only recently is published for the information of parents appointed, have worked exceedingly hard and citizens. during the last two years. It is this Govern­ Having dealt with public co-operation, let ment's view that on the vocational side of me say that perhaps the greatest thing that education it is not our job to tell industry, the Government has done in the field of edu­ commerce, or trade what their students cation is that it has given equality of oppor­ should know; on the contrary, it is our job tunity to all children, irrespective of where to find out from industry what is required they live or the economic circumstances of and then endeavour to provide those faciLities. their parents. Of course, that cannot be The same applies to the apprenticeship done 100 per cent. It is obvious tha~ chi~d­ field. We have Apprenticeship Advisory ren at Birdsville cannot attend a umversrty Boards and Apprenticeship Committees in or an institute of technology there. Clearly various cities. We have a Conservatorium there are some limitations, but, as far as is Advisory Board, a Board of Adult Education, reasonably possible, children today have been a Library Board, Trustees to the Art Gallery, given equal opportunities, wherever they live a Board of Junior Studies, a Board of Senior and whatever may be the financial position Studies, a National Fitness Council, and a of their parents. Certainly this is so for the Queensland Ballet Council. Those are some bright ones, as the scholarships that are now 1170 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply available overcome the disabilities previously is included, the figure is 28,300 places. How­ suffered by children of parents who could not ever, I want to be fair and confine the com­ afford to give them further education. parison to the four-year course previously and the corresponding four years today. The most significant achievement, although not the only one, has been in the field of Under Labour, there was only one high secondary education. There was a type of school with an oval. When Dr. Felix Dittmer equality of opportunity for children up to the looked like being beaten in an electorate on age of 14 years, or at primary-school level. the south side of the river, the Labour No longer is it considered satisfactory to give Government rushed in and built an oval at the children of Queensland equal opportunity Cavendish Road High School. That was the only at this level; it is now felt that they only one it built. should all have the chance to obtain further Opposition Members interjected. education. Some of the things that have happened at the secondary level, such as the The CHAIRMAN: Order! abolition of the Scholarship examination-- Mr. PIZZEY: You should have seen the Mr. Coburn: That is one of the best things attempt that was made to build an oval there, you ever did. Mr. Hooper. It was just a piece of level ground. Mr. PIZZEY: At least it gave all children During the years that it has been in office, the opportunity to receive secondary educa­ the Country-Liberal Government of Queens­ tion, whereas previously the opportunities land has had very valuable assistance from the were limited. The raising of the school­ Commonwealth Government in the field of leaving age to 15 and the introduction of a high schools, and 23 Commonwealth science five-year secondary course are very important blocks have been built. This movement is changes that have taken place. progressive, and science blocks are being pro­ Another thing for which the Government vided first at the schools that have the greatest number of Senior and sub-Senior classes. In can claim credit is the introduction of trans­ recent years, too, a textbook allowance has port services for secondary-school children. been introduced. So I say again that the In spite of repeated requests, Labour Govern­ present equality of opportunities for educa­ ments refused year after year to provide any tion is something of which the Government transport to secondary schools unless a rail can be proud. service was available. There are now 228 se~ondary-school services, catering for 12,000 As a matter of fact, if one looks at the children. Almost as many children have been buildings and remembers the schools that introduced to the field of secondary educa­ existed under Labour, one sees that many cation by means of transport services as of them have had to be replaced. The hon. were in the schools of Queensland when this member for Belmont knows that 80 per cent. Government took office. of the Cavendish Road High School, which was built by Labour, had to be pulled down Mr. Mann: That was nine years ago. and rebuilt almost completely, and the same may be said of many other schools. This Mr. PIZZEY: If the hon. member wants Government can say with pride that 80 per figures, let me say that in 1957 the popula­ cent. of the high-school places in this State tion of Brisbane was 543,000. Today it is have been provided by it. 658,000, an increase of 21 per cent. During Mr. Bennett: You can say it, but nobody the period in which the population of Bris­ bane in.creased by 21 per cent., the Govern­ will believe you. ment mcreased the places available for Mr. PIZZEY: It is true. secondary-school children in Brisbane from 5,600 to 19,700. Mr. Lloyd: Built on land that Labour resumed. Mr. Hanlon: What about the increase in the relevant age-group? The CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. PIZZEY: It certainly was not 100 per Mr. PIZZEY: In country areas, only about cent. eight of the existing high schools were built originally by Labour, and almost every one Mr. Hanson interjected. of those has had to be rebuilt almost com­ pletely. Bundaberg High School has been The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ rebuilt almost completely; Maryborough High ber for Port Curtis knows the rule governing School has been extensively renovated; and interjecting by a member from a seat in the the high schools at Gympie, Nambour, Chamber other than his own. Southport and Dalby have been rebuilt almost completely by the Country-Liberal Mr. PIZZEY: In 70 Queensland towns no Government. Almost all high schools in the facilities for secondary education were made metropolitan area and an even greater pro­ available by the Labour Government. Child­ portion in country areas have been provided ren in those towns just did not get any. The by our Government, despite the fact that increase in the number of places from 5,600 the population has increased by about 20 to 19,700 excludes Grade 8. If that grade per cent. in the last nine years. Supply (27 OCTOBER] Supply 1171

Let us take the provincial cities. The hon. High schools have been provided at member for Toowoomba East knows very Toowoomba, Mount Lofty, most of the one well that the two high schools in Toowoomba at Harristown, the two at Ipswich, Rock­ were built by the Country-Liberal Govern­ hampton, Rockhampton North, the greater ment. Admittedly, the high school at part of both schools at Townsville, and both Harristown was functioning previously with schools at Mackay. New schools have been an enrolment of about 250. provided, where there was no secondary education at all, at Thursday Island and Mr. Bennett: They were planned. Redcliffe. Is there any reason why there Mr. PIZZEY: They were all planned, should not have been facilities for all those according to the hon. member for South years at a place like Redc1iffe? If a Redcliffe lad wanted to attend high school he had to Brisbane; they were planned for the next come to the metropolitan area. To continue 20 years. I have not been able to find the list, new high schools have been provided any of the plans. at Pine Rivers, Clontarf, Mareeba, Trinity The hon. members for Ipswich East and Bay, Atherton, Malanda, Gordonvale, Innis­ Ipswich West know that the two high schools fail, Tully, Home Hill, Bowen, Proserpine, in Ipswich were established after the Country­ Mirani, Sarina, Longreach, Charleville, Liberal Government came to office. Biloela, Monto, Gayndah, Isis, Hervey Bay, Murgon, Kingaroy, Wondai, Maroochydore, Mr. Donald: They were built, but you Cooroy, Caloundra, Caboolture, Kilcoy, were only following our programme. Beenleigh, Beaudesert, Stanthorpe, Boonah, Miami, Oakey, Chinchilla, Cleveland, Gatton, Mr. PIZZEY: That is not correct. Roma, Goondiwindi and Pittsworth. They are all new high schools built by this Govern­ The hon. members for Townsville North ment. At some of those places there were and Townsville South know that the two high tops, or, as they are called, secondary high schools in Townsville have been built departments, but now children have an since the Country-Liberal Government took opportunity to pmceed to matriculation level office. in aH of those centres. Honourable Members interjected. Now let me refer to 70 country centres where no facilities existed-where for 40 The CHAffiMAN: Order! I remind hon. years Labour was prepared to allow the members on both sides of the Chamber that citizens to have their children leave school the Minister is entitled to bring his Estimates at the age of 14 without any facHities at all before the Committee and that, in turn, they for secondary education. In all these towns­ are entitled to speak on the Estimates. I ask a number of them western towns-there them to refrain from consistent interjections. would not be anyone over the age of 23 Mr. Lloyd: May I ask you a question? who has lived there continuously and who Why are you in so much more trouble than had an opportunity for secondary education, we were? unless of course his parents were wealthy enough to send him away to school. Mr. PIZZEY: I will tell the hon. member It is almost incredible that these electorates why. How could Labour be in trouble in were represented by Labour men for almost staffing schools when it did not have any? 40 or 50 years, and in some cases by Labour Labour did not have any trouble in staffing Ministers for a long period. What was high schools in Brisbane because there Labour's objective in denying western people weren't any. In other words, it provided the opportunity for secondary education? secondary education for a select few in the Obviously they had no problems in staffing community. schools; they simply said to western boys, Opposition Members interjected. "To hell with you; you can go without a school; we are not interested." The CHAIRMAN: Order! I well remember the Honourable Francis Michael Forde, with a pile of papers inches Mr. PIZZEY: I intend to take my time thick in front of him, pleading with his own over this, because it is quite an impressive Government for a high top at Hughenden. story. Mr. Houston interjected. Mr. Sullivan: We will back you up, too. Mr. PIZZEY: It is a story the hon. member Opposition Members interjected. does not like to hear. The CHAffiMAN: Order! I think we should have recorded in "Hansard" for the benefit of these people­ Mr. PIZZEY: One hears hon. members and as a reminder to them-that in these 70 opposite saying that the State has not country centres, for the first time, this advanced because country towns are the same Government gave their children the oppor­ as they were under Labour, that there has tunity of a secondary education. T'he towns not been any change. If that is so, why were are: Thursday Island, Ravenshoe, Babinda, not these facilities provided before? Let us B iggenden, Col1insville, Pittsworth, Y eppoon, have a look at the new schools in the Crow's Nest, Clermont, Emerald, Hughenden, country, outside the metropolitan area. Jandowae, Miles, Cloncurry, Inglewood, 1172 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Millmerran, Oakey, St. George, Texas, We realise that there were still some Theodore, Cooroy, Cunnamulla, Mirani, problems facing those who lived remote Mitchell, Tara, Wandoan, Winton, Imbil, even from small country towns. The only Kenilworth-- way they could be assisted was by gmnting Mr. Bennett: Are we going on a Cook's them some allowance. The TJ:easurer tour again? announced in his Financial Statement that :we would be paying a special allowance of $4 Mr. PIZZEY: Yes, definitely. a week to children who are compelled to live away from home cif they want to attend To continue the list: Rosewood, Bell, a secondary school. 'Iihis payment of $4 Caloundra, Dirranbandi, Gordonvale, Home a week will give parents a r,easonable chance Hill, Julia Creek, Kilcoy, Lowood, Mun­ to send their children away to high school. dubbera, Surat, Yarraman, Injune, hllora, It will not enable them to send their children Aramac, Baralaba, Calen, Cecil Plains, to the more costly boarding schools. Many Clifton, Goomeri, Kilkivan, Killamey, of the hostels in the western areas charge Laidley North, Miriam Vale, Mt. Larcom, something like $9 of $10 a week. Of course, Preston, Richmond, Rosedale, Springsure, it costs a certain amount to feed and clothe Tambo, Taroom, Wallumbi1la, Wondai, a child at home. The $4 payment is not Alpha, Dimbulah, Eidsvold, Moura, subject to a means test. Quinalow, Woodford. Why was that? There is no answer. The The $4 allowance, together :with the other previous Government just did not care. allowances available unde·r the means test­ the living-away-from-home allowance and the Mr. Hanlon: Before 1957 the numbers in former Scholarship allowance-will entitle the age-groups in many of these centres some parents to a payment of $6 or $7 a would not have qualified the centres in week. Where we cannot provide secondary accordance with your present requirements. education to Senior standard, we are pro­ viding 300 post-Junior scholarships for those Mr. PIZZEY: In the great majority of children who cacnnot attend sub-Senior and them the numbers in the age-group were Senior Classes daily. From an examination sufficient to establish secondary educational of the figures of childre·n attending secondary facilities. The hon. member would not say departments and living in remote areas, it that Springsure has grown much in recent would seem that probably 300 are as many years. This Government has provided these as would be justified in pmceeding to Senior facilities and opportunities for the children standard. The Senior courses are not easy. of the West. Children with a 6C of 7C pass in Junior Mr. Houston: What do they do when they would not be able to cope with the Senior pass the Junior examination? Is there any courses, but those who show any ability work for t!hem? whatever will be able to win one of these scholarships, which will be worth $5 a week. Mr. PIZZEY: There is work, a:s there was before. There are opportunities for appoint­ Mr. Bennett: I could name specialists on ment and promotion. Many of them enter the Terrace who got less than a 7C's pass the Public Service. Many take positions in in Junior yet they are outstanding surgeons larger towns. Previously very few Aboriginal today. children had the opportunity to obtain a Mr. PIZZEY: That is so. There are always secondary education. In the time of the exceptions. But should we allow 1,000 previous Government only 13 Aboriginal through on the chance that half a dozen will children in the settlements and missions were become outstanding people? This will always attending high school. be the case. We could all name some who Mr. Bennett interjected. were outstanding at school but failed in the first year at university, and the reverse is also THE CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. true. member for Souuh Brisbane to please discon­ Much has been said about the physical tinue his persistent interjections. If he does facilities at our schools, or the provision of not, I will have to deal with him. classrooms. Nearly 2,000 classrooms have Mr. PIZZEY: Today 302 boys and girls on been provided and, over all, more than the missions and settlements and Torres $100,000,000 has been spent by this Govern­ Strait Islanders are attending high schools or ment in providing school buildings in the boarding schools at Government expense. In primary, secondary, and tertiary fields. Labour's day one would never see a photo­ We have been particularly appreciative of graph such as I am holding. It depicts the very valuable help given by the Common­ Torres Strait Islanders and Aboriginal wealth Government in recent years. Anybody children who are being boarded at Govern­ who has seen the new science blocks must ment expense at Charters Towers. realise that they afford very fine facilities for Opposition Members interjected. the teaching of education at the higher level. One of these blocks is to be opened at Kedron Mr. PIZZEY: Labour had 40 years to do on Saturday, I think; the Cavendish Road something about it, but they did nothing in block was opened several months ago, and all that time. blocks are rapidly nearing completion in Supply [27 OcTOBER) Supply 1173 many other parts of the State. The Common­ Mr. PIZZEY: We could easily have wealth says we have been a little too extrava­ avoided the difficult situation we are now in gant, that we have done a little too well, but if we had refrained from providing educa­ we thought that we should take longer to get tional opportunities for all Queensland child­ through all the schools and give them ren. That is something the Opposition did something that allowed an easier transition when it was in office. That argument may from the high-school level to the university be valid in places like Alpha or Springsure, level. The facilities provided in many of but it is certainly not valid in Redcliffe or these science blocks will allow science masters Brisbane. There is no validity in the argu­ to ease the children into university. ment when, until 1952, there was only one high school here, namely, the Brisbane High Mr. Murray: The one at Kedron is superb. School. Mr. Houston interjected. Despite all this, there are still too many large classes. Nobody denies that. But let Mr. PIZZEY: They will get them. They us look at the over-all situation. A recent certainly will not have to wait 40 years as they census conducted by the department gave did under Labour-and even then they did the following result- not get them. 40 per cent. of high-school classes have fewer than 30 students. In many high schools there are subject 60 per cent. of high-school classes have masters, specialist teachers, and teachers of fewer than 35 students. music, art and physical education. There is a greater variety than ever before in the 80 per cent. of high-school classes have choice of subjects in the larger high schools. fewer than 40 students. This has caused problems in staffing. 95 per cent. of high-school classes have Nobody denies that there are problems, but fewer than 45 students. they are common in high schools in every The other five per cent. have more than 45 part of the world. Staffing problems are students. Of course, that does not help the common in every Australian State, in Britain 200 or 300 classes with more than 45 and in America. I have previously indicated students, but we must get things into their to the people one of the basic reasons for correct perspective. More than half the this problem, namely, that high-school teach­ classes have fewer than 35 students. Despite ers. today must be at least 21 years of age, the tremendous increase in the number of wh1ch means that they must have been born facilities we have provided in our period of before 1945. Therefore, high schools office, something like five-fold, we have throughout Australia and the world are being reached the situation where 80 per cent. of staffed by people born somewhere between the classes have fewer than 40 students. 1929 and 1945, which covers the depression period, the post-depression period, and the But we are not satisfied. In recent years war period. In all countries this was the we have offered fellowships to the university, period of a diminishing birth rate. In those special scholarships for one year, and teacher years some countries had their lowest birth scholarships which can be applied for by all rate in history. Things were stagnant; there who qualify. A thousand more apply than ~as n'? movement or development, but all qualify. People have great aspirations and mdustnes-not only education, but also want to qualify and become teachers. Admit­ commerce, trade, and industry itself-in all tedly a great number prefer to accept Com­ professional fields have to draw from that monwealth scholarships to take a professional yery small group to provide for the vastly course at the university, and others take mcreased numbers that are now coming for­ positions in the Commonwealth or the State ward as a result of the high birth-rate after Public Service, or in commerce or trade. 1945. We will still probably be in a position at the end of this year to offer teacher scholarships Mr. Hanlon: You use this birth-rate factor to all who qualify. in defence when we are running towards Our entry standard is the highest in Aus­ your goal line, but you do not want anybody tralia. Although it is not the same as mat­ to pick it up when you are running towards riculation standard, it is a higher standard our goal line. than we had years ago. Judging from Press reports and some comments, one would think Mr. PIZZEY: I do not know what the we are lowering our standards. Not very hon. member means. many years ago a person could win a scholar­ ship with 6 C's in the Junior, and he would Mr. Hanlon: You use this factor when it go to the Teachers' College for a year. is an advantage to you, but you dismiss it when we say it was a factor in the increase Mr. Houston: How did they turn out? in the number of secondary students. Mr. PIZZEY: Like the one the hon. mem­ ber for South Brisbane mentioned, some Mr. PIZZEY: It is a factor. were excellent. But some were not so good. Mr. Hanlon: You use it as a factor in the Some of the bright students, the ones with lack of teachers, but you did not recognise it high passes, are not first-class teachers. in the number of students. Mr. Sherrington interjected. 1174 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. PIZZEY: Is the hon. member for teachers. As far as is possible we are Salisbury advocating a return to the pupil­ endeavouring, as money becomes available, teacher system in this State? He seems to to relieve the administrative burdens on the think we should go back to that standard. principals of high schools and the head Surely he knows what is wrong. teachers of the larger primary schools. Mr. Sherrington: You must admit they do It has been said that teachers' salaries are a good job. a deterrent to obtaining staff at high-school level. Although the salaries in Queensland Mr. PIZZEY: Of course they do. But may be below those payable in some other today they need to be more highly qualified States, when a person graduates in Science to handle the new type of education, both or Arts and receives a Diploma of Education, primary and secondary, that is rapidly per­ he begins, at the age of about 22 or 23, on meating the system in Queensland and in a salary of $3,646, which is approximately other States. $70 a week. That is as high a salary as I pay tribute to Grade 8 teachers who a graduate can receive on entering the teach­ transferred from the primary schools. There ing service in other States. During his years was not a great deal of difference in many of service he can then rise without further examination, as he is already qualified, to of the subjects, but with the revised syllabus Class I.l, and then to deputy principal and much work and study had to be done before principal. The salary of a Grade I principal they could cope adequately with the new is $6,800, or $130.35 a week. responsibilities they accepted when they moved into the high schools and took over not only Those are some of the Government's Grade 8, but Grade 9, and sometimes Grade significant achievements in the field of 10. They were largely experienced teachers secondary education, although I would not and principals everywhere were appreciativ~ say that they alone are the most important. of the excellent work they did. Many did The most important achievement is probably not have high academic qualifications but to be found in the attitude within the schools. th~y had experience and understandi~g of The development of secondary education and children and were a good influence in the the provision of facilities for it is proceeding staff situation. concurrently with what might be called a revolution in schooling in this State. It is In recent years we have been able to con­ perhaps not as spectacular as other develop­ tinue the employment of all married women ments in terms of statistics, but it is more who could teach at high-school level. We fundamental and important for the ultimate have not, for good reasons, been able to do welfare of our nation. that in primary schools. In high schools however, all married women who have had I point out that the changing scene in satisfactory service have had no trouble in education has not merely been one of rising obtaining appointments, provided vacancies numbers and the physical provision of accom­ have occurred in their districts or towns. I modation for them. A revolution is occurring am no~ saying that ~very woman who taught in the very processes of education. It is and Wished to contmue has been appointed, therefore essential, in these times of greater because not all had satisfactory service. How­ awareness than ever before of the importance ever, what I have said applies to the great of education, that the public should know majority of them. this. For many years it has been true to say that the major objective of both primary Mr. Houston: You seem to suggest that and secondary education has been the incul­ you were glad when some of them got cation in pupils of a knowledge of those married. facts deemed necessary for their future lives as citizens and for their chosen vocations. Mr. PIZZEY: There are always some, I Educators were able to agree within reason­ suppose, who are not quite up to standard. able limits on those skills that students should That might apply to politicians, too, so that master and those facts that they should learn. when there is a redistribution of seats the It was easy to do that, because it was known electors are glad to get a new member. In what knowledge one would require to do a every large body of 8,000 or 10,000 people, certain job and what one would require to there are always some who are not perfectly know to pass a certain examination. One satisfactory. could look at an examination paper ten years Mr. W. D. Hewitt: That applies in all ago and say. "The paper for the examination walks of life. this year will be much the same," and much the same content of study would be required. Mr. PIZZEY: That is so. While there has undoubtedly been a con­ We have endeavoured to assist principals siderable amount of wastage of effort in of the larger high schools by providing more education in the past through students clerical staff and laboratory assistants. We learning facts by rote methods and forgetting would like to carry this assistance further, them almost as soon as they left school, but here again it is a matter of determining such a state of affairs was not considered priorities in the spending of money. If there criticai in a society that was reasonably is another $250,000 to spend, someone has to stable and in which the same pattern of determine whether to employ, for example, an occupations and skills e:x;isted from year to additional 250 clerk-typists or another 140 year. I venture to say that most hon. Supply (27 OCTOBER] Supply 1175

members sat for examinations-perhaps the At primary schools, too, in some schools Junior, perhaps the Senior-and that about a this year, and in all schools next year, he fortnight after having sat for them they will be following a science syllabus the prime would have got about 30 per cent. for the object of which is to enable him to observe papers for which they sat. It seemed to be accurately and to understand, appropriate to the pattern of those days to learn to repro­ his age and development, the relationships duce facts for an examination and then that exist in the world of things, both living forget the subject matter the next morning. and non-living, that form his environment. This is no longer true. Changes in society In secondary schools, for the past three generally, and in the skills required for years he will have been following a course of almost aH trades and professions, are study that is at once much broader and more occurring so rapidly that it is becoming searching than the more formal and rigid increasingly difficult to predict just what curricula of earlier years. Hon. members knowledge and what skills the student of will find, if they look at his examination today will require for his occupation of papers this year, questions that in many tomorrow. In the past, a trained engineer respects are considerably different from the knew within reasonable limits what he was type of questions that they themselves faced likely to need to know in the 20 years when they sat for Junior. These questions, after he qualified; he does not know that cast in the spirit of a modern curriculum, today. The explosion of knowledge, the aim to measure the student's understanding rapidly expanding frontiers in almost all of his subject and his abHity to apply his disciplines, make ,it virtually impossible for understanding to the solution of problems any man to be master of one field, let alone possibly new to his experience. of more than one. Mr. Houston: It will put a far greater Since we can no longer hope to predict burden on teachers. what facts the citizen of tomorrow will need to know, and since it is impossible for the Mr. PIZZEY: Certainly. This type of student to master all of the facts associated question is a reflection of the new methods of with even one subject, there is a changed teaching, which will, we believe, serve the emphasis in learning in both primary and student far better in the days to come. secondary schools. This changed emphasis, At the upper secondary-school level, new expressed simply, is on the development of curricula are beginning to emerge. In 1967, an understanding of the basic principles or a chemistry course known as "Chem Study" structure of each subject and on the develop­ will be introduced to Queensland sub-Senior ment of a true problem-solving approach. students. Throughout this course, the The aim is so to prepare our students that emphasis is also on the development of they can meet new situations and problems understanding of those basic relationships and apply their basic understanding towards that exist in chemistry and on the fostering adequate and satisfying solutions. within the student of the spirit of scientific All of this will mean different approaches inquiry and of the discipline of the scientific in both the teaching and the examining method. Similar emphasis will be found in aspects of education. It is a cha1lenging, other new Senior courses such as mathe­ interesting and rewarding, but far more matics, physics and biology. strenuous, task for both teacher and student All of this adds up to the fact that particu­ to seek for understanding instead of larly important changes are occurring in the accumulating, through rote learning, a host process of education. None would realise of facts. This does not mean, of course, that that better at this moment than the teachers. knowledge as such is decried. Rather is it They realise that they would have to seen in a broader perspective, allied by its re-learn, with a new system of approach, if application and analysis to the prime task they wanted to come back to teaching. At of solving; of meeting new and possibly all levels there is emerging a renewed undreamt-of situations in an inteHigent emphasis on the development of under­ fashion. standing of the basic structure of the various Those hon. members who have children or subject areas so that students might be able grandchildren in a primary school, par­ to apply this insight into as yet un-met appli­ ticularly in the lower grades, will already cations. have observed these changes in approach in Many other changes will undoubtedly the teaching of mathematics. No longer does occur m our schools in the future. In the the child begin his study of mathematics by application of science and technology to the the rote learning of tables of number facts: classroom, the media of programmed instruc­ rather, by observation, activity, and discovery, tion, closed and open circuit television, langu­ does he expedence those aspects of relation­ age laboratories and even computers will be ships that are fundamental to the under­ among the more spectacular changes. These, standing of mathematics, even at the most however, are surface changes. They con­ advanced levels. He is concerned not only stitute teaching aids and techniques designed with the relationships of number but also to assist rather than replace the teacher in with the development of an understanding his fundamental task of preparing the student of the world of spatial relationships and to take his place in an increasingly complex measurement. society. 1176 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

With these new approaches naturally there taken out Grade 8. The increase in enrol­ will be in some cases inadequacy among ment has not yet caught up with that move. teachers, and there is a great need for In 1957, when there were 198,857 pupils, in-service training. This is now being under­ there were 5,542 teachers; in 1966, with taken on a considerably increased scale. I 198,000 pupils, there are 6,389 teachers, or think I have dealt sufficiently with secondary in other words, something like 800 more education for the time being, unless any teachers for the same number of pupils. questions arise during the ensuing debate. Hon. members opposite say that the class I should now like to speak at some length situation has not improved, that it has on primary education. Some people think deteriorated. They have no argument. The that with the emphasis on secondary educa­ true position is quite obvious. These figures tion, primary education has tended to be are statistically recorded. In 1957 the mean neglected. That is not so. The building class size in primary schools was 35 · 9; it is programme has been equally spectacular in now 30·9, an improvement of 5 fewer in the the primary field as in the secondary. mean class size. Our target is 26 by 1975. Mr. Slwrrington: How do you account for Mr. Muller: What is all the noise about having so many temporary classrooms? big classes? Mr. PIZZEY: Some of them are quite Mr. PIZZEY: There are big classes but, good. They are better than many of the at the same time, there are many very small classrooms left to us in 1957 as a legacy classes. Although there are still some big from Labour. classes, on the average they are now smaller Since coming to office, we have spent than at any vime in our history. something like $28,000,000 on capital works Mr. Houston: How many schools have at primary schools-that is a considerable been closed? sum-and something like 1,800 new primary classrooms have been provided. In addition Mr. PIZZEY: What has that got to do many schools had to be remodelled; hun­ with it? It does not alter the fact that today dreds more have been adapted and there are 800 more teachers for fewer remodelled to meet modern require­ children. ments. Some remain to be done; Towns­ ville South has yet to be done. There are still some very difficult situa­ Not only has there been quite a develop­ tions For instance, how do we overcome the ment in the provision of buildings; there has problem of a school with 40 or 45 children also been an expansion of school-transport in all the classes? No Government would be services, and something like 23,000 children in the financial position of being able to are now being carried to school. Today 735 double the number of teachers. No Govern­ school-transport services are operating, as ment could affiord to split all t:he classes against 369, carrying 9,800 pupils, in 1957. into classes of, say, 22 and 23 and thus In this field of school transport our have to double the number of teachers. The Government recognised early in its term that only way to overcome the difficulty is with many people were carrying their children to composite groups-by taking 15 out of one school at their own expense. We have been class and 15 out of another and putting them able to give some as·sistance to those parents together to form a composite grade. In who have to drive their children mor'e than many cases teachers do not like composite 3 miles to school. Last year something like grade·s. $90,000 went to parents to assist them in rheir petrol costs for driving children to school. Mr. Houston: You are fostering them now. We are now spending five times as much on primary-school transport as was spent in Mr. PIZZEY: I am in favour of composite 1957. grades, and I make no apology for it. The hon. member for Barcoo taught composite I do not need to mention the provision of septic systems and fencing or the change in grades for all his teaching life. the general environment of schools. As the Mr. Houston: Parents will not send their hon. member for Townsville South has been children there if they can avoid it. interjecting, vhe Labour Government did not even put concrete floors underneath the Mr. PIZZEY: The parents have to be schools. Year after year when I sat on the educated to do so, and I would hope to get other side of the Chamber I asked for the support of hon. members opposite in concrete floors underneath schools. If the educating parents to accept composite grades. Labour Government ever did it, it was only No-one can speak with more experience than in Labour electorates. the hon. member for Barcoo, for he had composite grades all his teaching life. I Let me now have a word to say about suppose the hon. member for Maryborough class sizes. Let us look at the facts. In also had many of them, and I taught com­ 1957 there were 198,857 pupils in primary posite grades for most of my teaching career. schools; today there are 198,000. In other words, there are fewer children in primary Mr. Houston: Are you saying they are sohools today than in 1957 because we have better? Supply [27 OCTOBER} Supply 1177

Mr. PIZZEY: I am not saying they are Teachers' Training College. That was the better, but if the classes are made smaller, only teacher-training facility available in and the children are chosen, they are quite Queensland in 1957. We still have the school satisfactory. We do not want the intellect­ there, but over the years we have added ually weakest unloaded into composite grades, several new wings that are more suitable for and I am sure that head-teachers do not do teacher training. We have also built a that today. Provided a wise choice is made new teachers' training college at Kedron of the children and the class is kept small, Park and a new domestic science teachers' a composite grade can be a very good grade. college at Kelvin Grove, which is equal to Today, with more individual teaching and any in Australia. more reliance on children working without the teacher standing in front of the class Mr. Aikens: When are you going to build laying down the law as has been the custom a teachers' training college at Townsville. in the past, composite grades can be highly exciting and a worth-while experience for the Mr. PIZZEY: We have announced that it children. The hon. member for Clayfield is our intention to build two, one at Towns­ should know of a very peculiar case concern­ ville and one at Mt. Gravatt, in Brisbane. ing the one-teacher school at Ascot. There The land has been acquired at Townsville, is a waiting list at this school. Parents enrol and I should like to thank the Townsville their sons and daughters on the day of their City Council for making a grant of the land birth so that they can attend this one-teacher for the teachers' college and the university. school. It stands in the grounds of the I should not mind seeing a similar gesture ordinary school at Ascot. This is the par­ further south. The Townsville City Council ticular type of education that these parents showed admirable public spirit. feel will afford most benefit to their children. We will start on those new colleges next Mr. P. Wood: I do not think we can get year, but we badly need finance and help. a better school than a good one-teacher All States need help in teacher training and school. in building. They need help if they want to extend the course to three years, because that Mr. PIZZEY: That is so, but we cannot increases the cost by 50 per cent. We hope that eventually we will get help from the be sure of staffing every one-teacher school Commonwealth in this tertiary field, just as with teachers as highly qualified as the If we are getting it in the technological and teacher at Ascot. they are not staffed by university fields. Even if we do not get help excellent teachers the teacher may stay with we will still have to go on with it because a child for the greater part of his primary­ we have already planned for recruitment until school life, but in the larger schools the child 1975, when we hope class sizes will be down has a chance of having a variety of teachers over a period. to a reasonable level. By then we will have 212,000 primary­ I think we must have composite classes, school children, no more than we had three and I make no apologies for that statement. years ago, but we hope to have 8,000 teachers We must educate the people so that they will instead of the 5,600 teachers we had four or understand that a teacher can quite com­ five years ago. We expect to have 81,000 petently cope with a small group in a com­ secondary-school children and over 5,000 posite grade, otherwise there is no way of secondary-school teachers. During that period ever getting class-sizes down to 35 or 40 there will come up for consideration the pupils. question whether there should be a three-year instead of a two-year training course. The Mr. Houston: That is a defeatist attitude. three-year training course is becoming gener­ ally accepted in principle by all States and Mr. PIZZEY: The hon. member's atti­ most other countries. But how fast we can tude is that a class of 40 is too large and proceed and how our time-table can be met there should be another class. If there was will depend on the amount of money a class of 36 he would have two classes of 18. available. Mr. Aikens: Will there be a training course Mr. Honston. There would be nothing for university lecturers and readers? greatly wrong with that, either. Mr. PIZZEY: There is a short pre-year, Mr. PIZZEY: How unrealistic can the in-service training scheme in Brisbane. hon. member be? He would bring us to the stage where he would tax the nation out of In Townsville we hope to provide board­ existence. ing accommodation as that will be one of the great problems facing students from out­ The supply of teachers is largely bound side Townsville. It will not be easy for them up with the facilities and opportunities for to find accommodation in Townsville because training teachers at colleges. Let us again of the growth that will take place there and look at Labour's record. Labour did not the demands that will be made on accommo­ build one teacher's college. They took over dation by Service personnel and others. It an intermediate school, converted the class­ will be more difficult for teachers to get rooms, and called it the Kelvin Grove "digs," or accommodation, in Townsvi!le than 40 1178 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply in Brisbane, so an essential part of the In some cases, arrangements are made f~r teachers' college in Townsville will be a apprentices to travel to larger centres. I~ 1s residential block. uneconomic to retain a small teohmcal college at Mt. Morgan, for example, and I shall not deal with the subjects being apprentices are now transpor~ed from t~ere taught in primary schools. Some other to Rockhampton. Apprentices are g1ven Government members may be able to give far more satisfactory training by the pro­ information on that matter at a later stage. vision of better facilities in larger towns. Recently we have received assistance from Technical colleges are very expensive the Commonwealth in technical education. undertakings. The heat-engine laboratories We would not have been able to make the at Rockhampton and Townsville alone cost tremendous advances we have without the about $500,000. They are more for the Gorton money, the Martin money, and now trainin" of technologists than tradesmen. the Wark money. Senator Gorton is the Each ~f the other centres for training in Federal Minister in charge of education, and plumbing, electrical work, woodwork, etc., the other two men, through their committees, cost about $150,000 or $160,000. looked into the needs of the nation in tertiary and technological education. Mr. Coburn: Would you put a technical college in a town the size of Ayr? On the technical side the Government is responsible for the training of tradesmen, Mr. PIZZEY: We will put them where technicians, and technologists. The training there are sufficient students in each year of of tradesmen has long been carried out at training to warrant rhe appointment .of staff. the old Central Technical College, and tech­ Obv·iously, staff cou1d not be appomted to nical colleges that were appendages to high ·teach three students. The needs of all parts schools in provincial cities throughout the of Queensland are watched, and, wherever State. It is no longer deemed satisfactory there are sufficient apprentices to justify the to have a technical college, if it is of any establishment of separate colleges, they will size whatever, as an appendage to a high be provided. However, we have to be school. To have adequate and efficient sure that there will be a continued demand administration and instruction, a technical for training. A building costring $200,000 college should have its own principal and cannot be provided if after three years there men skilled and knowledgeable in the trades. will be no apprentices to be trained. So we have separated most of the technical colleges from the high schools and given In Brisbane there is a movement away them their own principals, almost their own from the Domain and efforts are being made charters, one might say, and within four or to get rid of th~ huts that have remained five years practically all of them will have there from the post-war years. I hope that the various shops, such as plumbing, elec­ within two years they will all be removed. trical, motor, and carpentry, required for The move is from the central area of teaching the various trades. Brisbane to peripheral technical colleges; the two now being built are at Eagle Farm and Mr. Aikens: You want to arrange for all Y eronga. The next will be at Ithaca, and apprentices to be accommodated at technical then one will be required on the eastern colleges. Many in provincial cities are side of the city to serve the eastern suburbs. taking correspondence courses. Mr. Sherrington: You might get around Mr. PIZZEY: There should not be many ,to Salisbury then. doing correspondence courses when the full development is realised. It will never be Mr. PIZZEY: They will be placed where possible to provide traoining in every town the apprentices live. No l?nger is. it ne<:es­ for watchmakers, for example, or optome­ sary to consider the locatiOn of mdustnes, trists. Some trades have only very few because apprentices are trained during the apprentices. There could never be facilities day and do not have to go to their classes for training in the printing trade in each from work. They now leave home and go provincial town. Apprentices in this direct to technical colleges for a day's train­ category are brought to a training centre in" so no longer is it necessary to give once a year for specialised training. co~sideration to industrial areas. Our interest now is in where apprentices live, and trans­ Mr. Ai:kens: But you don't do that. You port facilities. bring in only the new ones, not the old ones. Mr. Houston: You want one on the south Mr. PIZZEY: In a year or two all will side at Wynnum. be 'brought in. In most change-overs, the old system gradually passes and the new one Mr. PIZZEY: In that direction. is introduced. Mr. Sherrington: What about Salisbury? Mr. Aikens: And the old ones are kicked There are 19,500 people on the electoral in the teeth. roll, so there must be a large number of apprentices. Mr. PIZZEY: In any change-over there will always be some who are disadvantaged. Mr. PIZZEY: The hon. member for Salis­ There will be new and growing technical bury has complained that the Government coUeges in almost all major provincial cities. provides these facilrties in electorates held Supply [27 OCTOBER] Supply 1179

by Government members, merely because and technicians. In the past year, a rebuild­ Y eronga happens to be one of them. What ing programme has been under way next does he say about the fact that the Govern­ door to Parliament House for the Institute ment is building two institutes of technology, of Technology. and over $4,000,000 will be one in the electorate of the hon. member for spent there in the next three years. In Toowoomba West and the other in the elec­ addition, more than $1,000,000 will be torate of the hon. member for Rockhampton spent at Toowoomba and over $1,000,000 North? They are being built where the at Rockhampton in providing facilities for facilities are suitable and where they will similar diploma courses in provincial areas. give most benefit to the people of those cities. These will provide opportunities mainly at the tertiary level; but they will provide also Mr. Lloyd: The Commonwealth told you for technicians at the post-Junior level. where to put them. There is much more I could say about Mr. PIZZEY: The Commonwealth did the Institute of Technology, but I think I nothing of the sort. I assure the hon. mem­ will leave it till later in the debate. I will ber for Kedron that the Commonwealth gave make only one point at this stage. There us no subsidy for these sites; therefore, has been a suggestion in some quarters they had no say. Certainly, we showed the that institutes of technology should be Commonwealth where they were being estab­ miniature universities, that they should be lished, but we have not received any subsidy like embryonic universities in provincial on them. cities. The Commonwealth Government has made it plain that the money it makes The Government has a responsibility now available is not to be used for that purpose. for the training of tradesmen, technicians, Its Committee on Advanced Education, and technologists. A motor-trade school is which was headed by Dr. Wark, had this to needed on the northern side of the city, but say- at present the motor-trade school on the south side can cope with the requirements. "Arising from some comments made At Kangaroo Point, across the river from by individuals in the course of our Parliament House, a graphic arts school is inquiries in the States, we cannot too is being built for the printing trade, which is strongly ell1phasise that a college of one of the most expensive trades to provide advanced education is not to be confused for. with the type of college, generally known in America as a junior college. Such Mr. Houston: Is private industry assisting colleges do, in fact, present courses with in any way by providing equipment? recognised end qualifications, but they are confined to pre-university iCnd tech­ Mr. PIZZEY: It has promised some equip­ nician training. We point out that the ment. colleges which we hope to develop in Mr. Sherrington: They won't "come good". co-operation with the States will offer professional level courses in their own Mr. PIZZEY: They will "come good", but right. Their ability to do so is already their contribution wili be only a fraction of well-recognised by a wide range of the total cost. employers and professional institutions." Mr. Houston: The trend overseas is for These institutes that we are establishing industry to assist. will be recognised professionally. The Public Seno~ice and the teaching service have agreed Mr. PIZZEY: Yes. Industry has assisted in to recognise them. We are offering 100 the motor-trade school. Cut-away engines fellowships for diplomas in science or and various other pieces of equipment have industrial chemistry, and those who qualify been provided when new engines have been will be able to join the teaching service after introduced, so that students can be taught they have had a year's professional training about automatic gears, and so on. They on an equal status with those who obtain have been given not only to the college in a science degree at the university. They will Brisbane but also to colleges in provincial be able to do a four-year fellowship course cities. and come in with equal professional status to those who come from the university. I The training of tradesmen is being catered think these are new and wide opportunities for adequately, and I appreciate the exten­ that are being opened up for young Queens­ sive help that the Commonwealth Govern­ landers to adopt a different type of tertiary ment is giving. It is providing over education-perhaps with more of a practical $1,000,000 a year, and it seems that that bias, more at the level of workshop floor­ amount will be available indefinitely until manager. trade schools are adequate to do the job that is required of them. Between engineers and top technologists and the tradesmen level there has always Separated from these are the technologi­ been a gap. That is where the technicians cal institutions at a tertiary level. This is will come in. There are different types of a new trend in Queensland. It developed in technicians. There are technicians who are other States long before it developed here, offsiders to engineers. Every engineer and because they were industrialised earlier and every technologist usually requires four, five, required a greater number of technologists or six technicians, men with advanced 1180 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply trai~ing to work under the direction of the facilities have been rebuilt. They are as engmeer. There are no problems in the good as one will find anywhere. The new fields of civil and electrical engineerJng, and lecture rooms and science laboratories are there is no problem in the field of biologica;l first-class. However, it will take a few more science in the laboratories; but there is years yet to complete the programme. Within some difficulty when one gets to the mechani­ a reasonably short time Gatton College will cal field, because the upgraded tradesman be as fine an agricultural institution as could who becomes a foreman feels that it is his be found anywhere. prerogative to take charge of the men who are tradesmen. I believe it is here that there Mr. Aikens: Are you going to confine it is a field of opportunity for the technician to Queensland students, or are you going to who will train for two years after Senior and let bookmakers' sons from New South Wales will come in more on the side of the eng,ineer. come in, as the Labour Government did? Mr. Houston: When will he learn to use Mr. PIZZEY: We have long since stopped tools? that practice. We allow in students from Papua and New Guinea, and from some of Mr. PIZZEY: Many of them will take the the developing countries. ,I think it is only opportunity when they leave the college with right that we should. I am referring to a diploma equivalent to a technical Senior. Colombo Plan students and others. Unless They will have only two years' college work there are vacancies we will give priority to to do, and many will realise that it is better Queensland students. Any Queensland stu­ to have the trade qualifications as well as dent who passes Junior in certain subjects the technicacl qualifications. The Common­ can attend there next year and undertake a wealth Public Service is already looking for two-year post-Junior course. I do not think this type of qualification. there will be any vacancies. There are enough Queenslanders to take advantage of Mr. Houston: Are you going to advance the the good accommodation available. If we idea of continuing training after the first year? were offering some of the old accommodation Mr. PIZZEY: An expert advisory com­ to the Southerners, I do not think they mittee is meeting regularly and discussing would want to come. these problems. We have a fluid situation. Mr. O'Donneii: They would come for There is nothing static in education. We do the meals. not say, "This is what we have; it is the best we will get and it will have to stay for Mr. PIZZEY: They would come for the eight or 10 years". These things are being meals and the cheap board. continually reviewed. Proposals are put up Mr. Muller: Are you increasing the and examined. We are careful not to capacity? jeopardise anyone's future but, as we should be, we are watching curricula, procedures, Mr. PIZZEY: The capacity will be and methods-what is happening in other increased by reason of the fact that there will countries of the world-and rejecting what be fewer at the tertiary level than previously. we think is undesirable and accepting what is At the same time there will be more at the good. We continually have these meetings of post-Junior level, but we expect only a small experts in the various trades and professions. number to start at the diploma level. Mr. Houston: I hope you take their advice. At the pre-Junior level we have 23 high schools offering an agricultural Junior. This Mr. PIZZEY: Largely, we do. Sometimes takes in only the fundamentals of agriculture. it requires a great amount of money to act It provides a background to agriculture for on their advice, and the matter has to be students living in the rural areas-and not deferred because we just cannot find over­ only in rural areas, because our largest enrol­ night the wherewithal to suddenly implement ment is at the Corinda High School. what they suggest. Mr. Houston: Are you going to extend In the field of agricultural training a that course to other metropolitan schools? similar revision is being undertaken, and next year at the Queensland Agricultural Mr. PIZZEY: Not at the moment; not College at Gatton there will be two levels while we can adequately cater for those who of courses-one a two-year course after require it. Junior and the other a fellowship course after As the hon. member for Gregory knows, Senior. The post-Senior course will be of we are providing a school to enable boys to either three or four years. Those that come learn something of the pastoral industry in out from this course will have equal pro­ a two-year post-Junior course. It is mod­ fessional status with engineers and other elled somewhat on schools in South Africa diplomates coming from technological that have been very useful in giving young institutions. men basic training before going to work in Some hon. members have visited Gatton the pastoral industry. The first intake will College, where we have a complete rebuild­ be next year. Already we have the maximum ing programme under way. It will cost some­ number enrolled. This boarding school thing like $3,000,000 before it is completed. accommodates 48; we already have 48 Accommodation has to be rebuilt. Dining enrolled, and there is a waiting list. Any Supply [27 OCTOBER] Supply 1181 doubts we had about a sufficient number start a grammar school at Warwick, Bunda­ being interested in this course have been berg, or Maryborough," I would welcome the dispelled. idea. As the hon. member for Maryborough knows, the grammar school at Maryborough Mr. Davies: Any staff problems? ran into financial difficulties and the Govern­ Mr. PIZZEY: Quite a few of the staff ment had to take it over. That was a great have been acquired-but not by us; by the pity because grammar schools provide a board. We have given the board a certain very important and useful part of our sec­ amount of local autonomy. This will be an ondary-education system. We have also experiment in giving a great degree of local been able to give greater assistance to other autonomy. non-State schools. The abolition of the Scholarship enabled us to pay fees to all I do not intend to deal at length with the secondary students in Grades 8, 9 and 10. university. We will come to that later on. Last Christmas the Government announced Of course, our next big programme will be its proposal-which it has implemented-to the transfer of the university college at pay interest on loans for science accommoda­ Townsville to its permanent site across the tion in non-State schools. river, and the full development of the university at St. Lucia. We are not able to Mr. Aikens: Have you taken out figures continue to provide the high annual increase to show how much the Government has paid in expenditure to the university that we have in cash in 12 months? in the past. We can do that only at the Mr. PIZZEY: I have the figures, and I expense of other fields of education. We can give the hon. member a list of schools if think this is a period for consolidation (and he wants them. They are for publication. growth, too), but not tremendous growth as It will probably total about $150,000 by the has occurred in every university in Australia end of the 12 months. The Commonwealth since the post-war years. All universities provided numerous classrooms in many parts have been told that they must consolidate a of the State. At the beginning of next year little. They will not be able to spend as an allowance of $15 a student will be paid fast as they might think they should. to all schools. Mr. O'Donnell: Is there any levelling-off The non-State school system has its prob­ at the university? lems. On the whole, numbers in classes are very much larger than in State schools. We Mr. PIZZEY: I think there will be, but will certainly be getting the spill-over, St. Lucia has not yet been developed to its because they face the same difficulty as we full capacity. do in staffing schools and providing accom­ Mr. Aikens: Don't you think there is a modation. Last year I believe there was a need to put the cleaner right through the old, spill-over of 10,000 pupils into the New archaic university system? South Wales State education system. This spill-over was partly responsible for the Mr. PIZZEY: I think that could be a critical accommodation situation at the begin­ very interesting subject for debate here one ning of the year. The private sector of the day, and I should like to hear the hon. mem­ school system was incapable of coping with ber's point of view on it. It is a very diffi­ the vast numbers that wanted to enrol, and cult situation. All universities throughout they had to be accommodated in the State­ the world have the problem in administration school system. of sorting out the very capable, dedicated That caused tremendous problems at the and efficient, from the not so capable and beginning of the year. However, it is not inefficient. Some universities appoint staff surprising when we remember that the llOlli­ for only five years and if, at the end of five State schools have the same difficulty in years, a staff member is not satisfactory they getting staff. They have large classes which. find it easy to terminate his services. in many cases, are far larger than the classes I assure hon. members that the second that would be acceptable in our own schools. university in Brisbane has been put back [Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.] only a year or two in the time-table until we achieve full development at St. Lucia. Mr. PIZZEY: I do not intend to detain I wish to point out in these introductory hon. members much longe-r in surveying the remarks that this Government has led the service that education has given in recent way in giving assistance to non-State schools. years. Having dealt with the primary, We have always had a form of assistance secondary, technical, and tertiary fields, I here that is not available in other States­ shall now mention briefly a few aspee>ts m what I might call an aided grammar-school the special education service this State system. All major provincial cities have provides. their grammar schools which got consider­ The Government realise-d soon after it able help from the Government for work of took office that ~his was a field that required a capital nature as well as an annual grant. a specialist officer in charge, and we formally They were allowed to run their organisations, made the special education branch a separate and had local autonomy in managing their branch as in the secondary, primary, allld schools. That is a very good system. If any technical fields, and we put an experienced group came to me and said, "We want to and capable officer in charge. Since that 1182 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply time ther'" have been many interesting schools for children less qualified academic­ developments in this field, which largely ally than others. I would not call them "slow looks after the unfortunate children in the learners". community, namely, Vhe physically handi­ Mr. O'Donnell: You did then. capped and the mentally retarded. Also under that officer comes indirectly the kinder­ Mr. PIZZEY: I did not. garten association. It is run by the Creche and Kindergart,en Association, and the Mr. O'Donnell: You just said you would Government, with Hs considerable financial not call them "slow learners". help, is in close liaison with that association. All citizens realise that there is an obligation Mr. PIZZEY: They are not slow learners to look after the unfo11tunate in our com­ in the way in which that term is used in munity, as well as the fortunate. opportunity schools. They are children who will benefit by a special form of secondary But looking after the phy~ioally handi­ education. Many children have successfully capped and mentally retarded children is not undertaken the modified course to Junior the only job of rhis particular section. It standard and have been placed in industry. is almost the nerve centre of new develop­ An interesting fact is that the community ments. It also has a research organisation has taken a great interest in opportunity where capable, highly qualified officers con­ schools, and I should like to pay a tribute tinually keep abreast of what is happening to businessmen, manufacturers, and others in other States and countries. They study in the community who have gone out of modern trends and advances and bring them their way to provide opportunities for these to the notice of departmental heads. The boys and girls. research and guidance section has made an invaluable contribution to the advancement Mr. Donald: They are doing a splendid of education in Queensland. job. There has been an enormous growth in Mr. PIZZEY: At the opportunity school kindergarten work because of the financial at Darling Point many have become welders, encouragement this Government has given. and many have taken up other trades. Much There were 23 kindergartens operating in of our success in providing opportunities for 1957; now there are over 100. The grant them is due to the close co-operation of the has increased from $13,600 in 1957 to Commonwealth Employment Service and the $122,000 at present. That does not take business people in the community. into account the special $100,000 grant Mr. Murray: Does the State provide any made last year to assist in the establishment of a Creche and Kindergarten Association opportunities for them? training college. Mr. PIZZEY: Not many, no. Most of Possibly more important than the assist­ our positions require much more skilled work, ance given to pre-school children is the help but, where possible, we help in some fields, given to children who are slow learners. such as building. We cannot assist very Only a small percentage of slow learners much in the ordinary clerical and profes­ were provided for before this Government sional fields. I repeat that industry has been took office. They are not all provided for particularly co-operative in placing these now-we should like to be able to move people. more quiokly----Jbut tremendous progress in the opportunities given to slow learners has The Government has provided better been made since 1957. accommodation and schooling for deaf and blind children. Three years ago the school Mr. Davies: One would expect some catering for the blind was separated from improvement over the years. the school for the deaf. Each school has its own peculiar problems in educating Mr. PIZZEY: One would expect some youngsters with these handicaps. At the improvement consistent with the increase in school for the deaf a classroom block as population, but the rate of improvement modern as one could find anywhere was shown has been very much better than that. opened a year or so ago. I invite hon. In 1957 there were 500 places for slow members to inspect it. It was built with learners. Obviously there were many more acoustics in mind, and the children are taught for whom places could not be found. Today in small groups. Some of them are com­ 1,600 places are available-three times as pletely deaf, and even in that field there many. The number of slow learners has not has been a complete change from the old increased by 200 per cent. method of teaching by the manual method. Mr. Davies: We appreciate what has been done. What has happened at this school is only the first step in a construction programme Mr. PIZZEY: In 1957 opportunity schools that will cost about $750,000. The first were restricted to four or five centres. They residential block is nearing completion. As now exist in 19 places, and the number will all hon. members realise, the wooden build­ increase next year. Concurrent with increased ings that served the purpose for many years opportunities for slow learners has been an are a very real hazard. and evacuating chil­ increase in the opportunities provided in high dren of varying ages and degrees of deafness Supply (27 OCTOBER] Supply 1183

m the event of fire, would be a great prob­ is moving towards equal pay-it is its lem. As soon as the old wooden buildings policy to do so-and it will achieve its aim are replaced by brick and concrete structures, over a number of years. Whatever the the happier we will be. rights and wrongs of the question may be, The school for the blind, of course, as the fact that the teachers in New South the hon. member for Norman knows, has Wales will get equal pay does not neces­ its own classrooms and its own teachers. sarily mean a better system of education for the children or a better standard of Mr. Bromley: I think you are doing a education. The fact that Governments in fairly good job there. southern States have to pay more for class­ rooms and equip them with central heating Mr. PIZZEY: Yes, a good job is being does not mean that they have a better done there, and a rationalising of the old system of education. buildings at Buranda is now being carried out. All these things are to the advantage I point out, too, that some States include of the children. in their expenditure the interest and redemp­ The number of speech correction offi­ tion on capital works. The Government of cers has almost trebled-it is about 25 now Queensland has spent about $100,000,000 on -and they are doing a very good job in school buildings. If it had to amortise that overcoming the defects and deficiencies of out of its own funds and provide the interest children. and redemption in its Education Vote, the expenditure per capita on education would The Department of Education conducts rise very quickly. It is done with hospitals. schools for the various spastic centres, and If a hospital board borrows money from it also makes teachers available for children the Government to provide more hospital who are hospitalised for varying periods. accommodation, it shows that amount of The State has to accept educational respon­ money as capital expenditure. Therefore, it sibilities in many fields. is very difficult to get expenditure that indi­ The department cannot get enough guid­ cates comparable standards. ance officers, and it is very difficult to hold those that it has. It would like more. Let us look now at the tax reimburse­ However, guidance services have been ments that Queensland has received. extended to country high schools, whereas Between 1948-49 and 1956-57, Labour previously they were restricted largely to Governments spent on education an average city schools. Regional guidance officers of 10 · 9 per cent. of their Budgets; between have been appointed recently in Toowoomba 1956-57 and 1965-66, Country-Liberal Gov­ and Townsville, and the department is ernments have spent an average of 16·74 attempting to continue and expand special per cent. of their total Budgets. Country­ education services concurrently with the Liberal Governments have been prepared to advances that are being made in other fields set aside a far higher percentage of the of education. total moneys available to meet the educa­ tional needs of the State than were former Mr. Mann: Are you going to say anything Labour Governments in the preceding 7 about the police? or 8 years. Mr. PIZZEY: I will deal with police Let us take expenditure from Consolidated matters later in the debate on the Estimates. Revenue. Since 1956-57, expenditure on education from Consolidated Revenue has In conclusion, I should like to examine been increasing by 10·35 per cent. annually, the expenditure on education. I know that yet the Consolidated Revenue Fund itself has the Opposition's argument will consist of a been increasing at the rate of only just over recital of comparative per capita expendi­ 8 per cent. In other words, each year ture on education in an attempt to show expenditure on education has been progressing that Queensland is lagging behind the other at a far greater rate than have the sums States. Hon. members opposite used those available in the Consolidated Revenue Fund. figures extensively during the last election Our rate of expenditure this year will be campaign as being the only criterion of 51 per cent., which is far higher than it Queensland's standard of education. Of was in 1957-about 42 per cent. of tax course, much more than the expenditure reimbursements. per capita is involved. We have reached the stage today where Mr. Lloyd interjected. half the money we receive by way of tax Mr. PIZZEY: Surely the hon. member reimbursements is spent in the field of is not going to suggest to me, that because education. This is almost 10 per cent. higher than was the case when this Government took the Victorian Government has to pay office. $160,000 an acre for land and the Queens­ land Government has to pay only $10,000 Let us now examine some other com­ an acre, Victoria immediately has a better parisons of increased expenditure. The system of education? Many factors are figures I want to give relate to increases involved in the expenditure per capita. between 1958-59 and 1962-63. Some of Take, for instance, the question of equal these will have changed in the interim, no pay. The Government of New South Wales doubt; ours will have changed, because in 1184 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

1964 we brought the 8th grade out of the having enough money; some arise from the primary and put it into the secondary, so fact that there are not ,sufficient young the position would have altered somewhat. people of quality coming along to fill the Net expenditure on education from Con­ highly-skilled professional pos1tions available solidated Revenue funds throughout Australia in all sections of the community. increased by an average of 51 · 9 per cent. I rhink the Leader of the Opposition made in that period. Queensland's expenditure on a point at the week-end when he said that education increased by 52·48 per cent., there is no magic source of money. The slightly above the Australian average. Net State is doing all it possibly can from the expenditure on education per head of popu­ sources available to it. The only way we lation from Consolidated Revenue increased can have more money available is for more over that period of five years on an average money to be provided by the people of of 3 3 · 9 per cent. throughout Australia, Australia. I do not think it is nec,essary to whereas Queensland's expenditure increased tax the people mare. People say, "All that by 38·49 per cent. is necessary to get more money for educa:tion On secondary education, in the same period is to increase taxation". All that is really the Australian average increased by 80 per necessary is for the people of Australia to cent., Queensland's by 121 per cent. That save more, and to be prepared to lend more would be when we were taking education for all the public services that are required. to the far-flung corners of the State and pro­ The people of Australia prefer to spend viding equal opportunity for all children, money on "this and t'hat" rather than save wherever they might live. Our increase is it and invest it in their nation's future. Year much higher in secondary provision. after year since 1950, or earlier, Australian Governments have spent hundreds of millions For primary-school transport the Australian of dollars of tax money on capital develop­ average increase was 43 per cent., whereas ours was 79 per cent. From the Loan Fund ment. If the people of Australia lent the the Australian average increased by 45 · 8 money required for all capital works of the per cent., ours by 45 · 9 per cent. So we are States and the Commonwealth, there would holding our own with the average increase in be so much more of their tax money avail­ expenditure throughout Australia. able that I am sure there would be plenty to reimburse the States to do many things Those are not my figures. They are not that these people are now asking to be supplied by my department. As a matter done. of fact, they were used by the Western Australian teachers in their journal when I wonder if all those people who complain they were complaining about the treatment bitterly that not enough money is being teachers in Western Australia received as provided for educat~on support Common­ compared with those in Queensland. wealth loans. I wonder how much they have contributed to the development and growth My purpose in giving these figures is not of this State. If they consider that ail these to try to prove that we in Queensland lead things are necessary, they are the people in some fields, but to prove that there are who ought to be saving and lending. many ways of looking at expenditure on education. After all, the real criterion is the Mr. O'Donnell: Don't you Vhink you end product from the schools. The fact should appreciate the f,act that they are that a State spends more money does not complaining? There was a time when they mean that it has a better system. Two people didn't even bother to complain. might have equal salaries and one wife might Mr. PIZZEY: I am appreciative that they spend more than the other, but that does are complaining, in that they are taking some not mean that she runs a more efficient home interest. But I wish they would tell the than the other. That is the argument that whole story. The simple story is that the some members are trying to use. people of Australia have to redirect some A naval recruiting officer recently said of their spending. that, because of our high standard at matricu­ Mr. lVIann: Do you want to argue that lation level, the Navy looked to Queensland if people do not subscribe to Gov,ernment for recruitment. loans they cannot expect to get money for I do not deny that there is a lot to be education? done-there always will be much to be done Mr. PIZZEY: I am saying that if more in this field-but I can say that everything possible that can be done has been done. money was saved and lent, the Governments Each year new and better ways of providing of Australia would not need to use taxation education are found, and as money and money for capital purposes. It is obvious resources become available different educa­ that if we construct a building that is to tional systems will be introduced if, after a last for very many years, generations of the thorough examination, it is considered that future will benefit from it. Therefore, we they provide something better in the interests should not be paying for it today out of of the children. taxation; its cost should be a charge on future generations. For the last 10 years Everyone can see many ways of spending not enough money has been saved and sub­ a great deal more money on education. scribed to Commonwealth loans. Year after Some of our problems are the result of not year money is taken from taxation to enable Supply [27 OcTOBER] Supply 1185 the Commonwealth and the States to carry had the best education system in the world. out capital works programmes so essential How blind those people were to the real for Vhe development of Australia. The facts of the situation! We do not say that; answer to the problem, of course, is a we say we are up among the best; we are reaEsation by the poople t

We know that of two people given exactly Mr. HOUSTON: Of course it has. Why the same amount of money one could come are these people going wrong? Is it because up with material assets and the other could they are highly educated, because they have waste it. In that respect I agree with the a place to live, and because they know they Minister, and, therefore, in judging the Gov­ are wanted in this community? Of course ernment we must look at the results, not not, they are outcasts; they have been thrown at how many buildings have been erected or to the wolves from their early days. how many teachers or how manys classes there are. The final product is the youth of Mr. Pilbeam: Why don't you indict the today after they pass through the various churches as well? schools and colleges. It cannot be denied Mr. HOUSTON: The Minister is also that we have our problems. If our standard Minister in charge of police and native of education has increased as tremendously affairs. He spoke on education for 2! hours as the Minister suggests we would expect to in a purely academic way and tried to tell have much less delinquency, fewer social us that prior to 1957 no-one in this State problems, and less crime. was educated. We are supposed to be a mob Mr. Pizzey: Do you think the home has of "nongs." I am proud to know the heads no responsibilities? of the Department of Education. They are doing a very good job, and they were edu­ Mr. HOUSTON: I let the Minister speak cated in the days of a Labour Government. without interruption. We should also expect They are the ones to whom the Minister is entrusting further development in education. that the financial return of each family would If hon. members opposite want to condemn be of such magnitude that only the head an earlier system, let them look at those of the family would have to work. The facts who were educated under it. Look at the are that delinquency is on the increase. Minister; he was a teacher under a former system. Mr. Chinchen: Only in Queensland? Immorality is increasing, and so is illegi­ Mr. HOUSTON: It has increased in timacy. It is to be regretted that we also Queensland as it has elsewhere, and I con­ have problems with young girls who find demn the present Government for not making themselves in trouble. Surely an education Queensland the State with the least delin­ system should be able to teach young people quency. The Reverend Kidd, well known how to steer away from these things. Packs for his work in Lifeline, recently reported of youths are roaming the streets attacking that each day one child in trouble went to women, and this morning's newspaper carried them for assistance. What an unhappy the report of damage done by school children record when we find that among the pro­ to the interior of a church. duct of the education system, our youth, Mr. Muller: You cannot blame the system crime and the need for help are on the for that. increase. 'Government Members interjected. Mr. HOUSTON: If these things happen, of course the system can be blamed. Raising Mr. HOUSTON: Government members the school-leaving age is all very well, as do not like it. They do not like the truth. long as children are also educated to recog­ All they like to boast about are the bricks nise their true position in society. and mortar they put down somewhere. But There is something wrong with our present these are the results of the Government's system. I advise hon. members opposite to education system. In the last nine months look at the syllabus. How many know what 1,163 boys and 254 girls were before the is in it? How many know the subjects courts. What a proud record! Where do taught, and how they are arranged? Quite these crimes start? I know the Minister says often, because of the choice of subjects avail­ that we should blame the parents, and in able, many children at secondary schools are many cases I admit the parents are not free taught nothing about various aspects of of blame, but our education system is health. Children, both boys and girls, are such-I will prove this and so will other being taught the functions of the human body, members-that the child is showing a ten­ but nothing about health and morality. Hon. dency not to have a purely academic mind, members opposite say that they have no and in far too many cases is allowed to responsibility in this matter. Of course they become a failure in his early years. He goes have. If we were the Government, I can through life as a failure and looks to other assure the people that we would take positive outlets to show that he has something to action to overcome these things. offer his fellow man and those with whom he associates. More of that later. The Gov­ Mr. Muller: Just what do you mean? ernment cannot deny that there has been a 20 per cent. increase in delinquency in the Mr. HOUSTON: I shall tell the hon. mem­ last year. Those are facts given by Govern­ ber. First of all, the syllabus should be ment Ministers. revised by those who appreciate the fact that many students have differences in their Mr. Muller: This has nothing do to with make-up. The Minister stated that the education. Government has provided more opportunity Supply (27 OCTOBER) Supply 1187 schools and special courses. I have no quarrel fewer police would be needed and addi­ with that. It is a step in the right direction, tional money would be available for but it does not go far enough. education. Mention has been made of the large If the Minister would talk to people with classes in Queensland schools. The Min­ practical knowledge in this field, he would ister does not agree with the Queensland be told that if a child is a failure in earlier Teachers' Union and other people who have years, in second or third grade, nothing much said that classes are far too large. But they can be done about it, and because of many are too large. factors the child is a failure from then on. Amongst other things, the teacher has not Mr. Pizzey: I ;io not disagree. I said time to get to understand the child and, by they are smaller than they where when becoming a true friend to him, ascertain his Labour was in office. weaknesses and what is worrying him, in order to make a useful citizen of him. I Mr. HOUSTON: Of course they are. am not blaming the teachers. I have had The Minister wears a type of suit different some teaching experience (with older students, from the one my grandfather wore. That certainly) and I know that in large classes it is not the answer to the question. The is not possible to devote the necessary time classes are still too large and something to the problems of each child. Some are must be done about it. unable to cope with the work, even with The Minister said that all the student modern methods. Th.: Minister mentioned teachers on offer last year were absorbed the Cuisenaire method of teaching into the teaching profession. I am not mathematics. arguing about that. I do not disagree with Mr. Ramsden: Will you answer a question? the factual information given by the Min­ ister. I accept his word because, from that Mr. HOUSTON: No, not at this stage. The point of view, he is quite an honourable hon. member can make his own speech. I man. But I do not think that all the avail­ have only 25 minutes in which to reply to able sources have been tapped. a speech of 2! hours. I commend the Technical courses and classes and colleges Government on the introduction of the have been set up in various parts of the Cuisenaire method; I think it is very worth State, and the Minister is talking about while. However, children who are slow in setting up another training college in the learning mathematics are still slow under the North. I cannot see why training colleges new method, and the position is being aggra­ cannot be established in various centres, vated because it has been introduced not and I believe that the Federal Government throughout the State but only at some must come to the party. In the last few schools. This causes great difficulty when the years it has given about $3,000,000 for the parents of a child who has started learning building of science blocks. They are mag­ mathematics under the Cuisenaire method nificient buildings and are very well are transferred, and the child has to attend equipped; but only a few schools are getting a school where Cuisenaire is not being them. The Minister said that each school taught. That is wrong. A number of people will eventually get its turn. However, if who have come into my electorate have told that $3,000,000 had been spent on estab­ me that their children were attending schools lishing training colleges at Rockhampton in which the Cuisenaire method was used and and other towns on the coast, I am sure are now attending a school in which it is not there would have been more applicants for used and, consequently, are completely con­ positions as trainee teachers. In touring fused. That is what I am complaining about. the State, I have met many families who It is evidence of bad management. Hon. have said, "We are not sending our boy and members opposite are making a great deal girl to Brisbane to become teachers." In of noise because I am bringing out some other words, potential teachers are influ­ home truths. enced by their parents not to come to Bris­ The question is asked, "What should be bane, and I do not blame the parents for done?" I believe that every child in Queens­ adopting that attitude. If I remember cor­ land schools should be taught something rectly, the Minister said that about about book-keeping and the problems asso­ $500,000 was being spent to provide an ciated with hire purchase. They should engineering laboratory in one of the pro­ certainly receive instruction on the aspects vincial cities. Why cannot a similar sum of health that affect their growing-up. of money be used to set up training col­ Things such as these have been neglected leges? They would not be the most expen­ for too long, and I am sure that other hon. sive feature of the State's education system. members will speak of other things that Mr. Pizzey: Each college would cost should be taught in schools. I am very about $2,000,000. strongly in favour of attempting to over­ come the problem of delinquency, which Mr. HOUSTON: That may be so, but at throws a great strain on the nation and the least one could be built from the $3,000,000 State. Additional police are needed because provided by the Commonwealth Govern­ it exists. If the problems associated with ment for the building of science blocks. If youths growing up could be overcome, that Government wishes to help education 1188 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

in the State. it should not attach strings to course, a different matter which could the money it makes available. The Minister be argued at length. Unfortunately, I have knows, as we do, that the Queensland's not the time in this debate. education problem is different from that of other States. It depends largely on the Mr. Muller: We did not have any development that took place prior to this secondary schools at all in the country. point of time. It also depends to a large Mr. HOUSTON: We hear a lot of talk extent on the relationship of areas and the about higher eduoation. The Miruister says ratio of private schools to public schools. that we have only one agricultural college Therefore, the State Government should say near Brisbane because there is no demand to the Commonwealth Government, "Give for another. That is true. It is equally us the money and let us work out a true that prior to 1957 there was no great priority." I do not think the Minister will demand for secondary education in this State deny that if he had $3,000,000 he would because anyone who approached an employer increase the training colleges throughout to get a job would be asked, "Have you the the State. Scholarship?" If he said he had, he would Mr. Campbell: You do not agree with the be empLoyed. I know that t:his situation science blocks? definitely applied in the electrical t11ade. The same employer is now demanding a Junior Mr. HOUSTON: Don't talk nonsense! pass. The hon. member should go back to his fowls. To say that we are doing other The amazJing part is that prior to 1957 a than advocating a correct system of priority student with a Soho~arship pass then had is so much nonsense. It is not much use to qualify in a college course that was far having well-equipped science buildings if no harder than the one we are now setting trainee teachers are available for them. Let for our apprentices with Junior passes, and us first get the trainee teachers. We can far superior, too. Hon. members opposite then re·duce the number of students in classes cannot deny that. and thus allow more individual tuition of I am not against sending children to students. This, I believe, would be a step secondary school. This has been brought in the right direction. about, not so much by the desire of the Mr. Hodges: If you had had more t1han Department of Education as by the demand one teacher training college in previous years of the public and the employers that the we would be in a better position in regard )Outh of today be educated to that standard. to teachers now. Hon. members op,posite cannot prove uhat the proportion of people going into the Mr. HOUSTON: I quite agree. I am not different callings is any different today from arguing about what happened before I came what it was formerly, but it is obv.ious that into Parliament in 1957. As a matter of the level of education on the academic side fact, we sacked the Gair Government. has risen. Mr. Ramsden: We did. When speaking about teachers' com­ plaints the Minister said that there was a Mr. HOUSTON: Don't be stupid! The lot of noise out not much ground for it. point that annoys us on this side is that The teachers have plenty of ground for it. everything the Government does is tainted The best test is whether or not we are losing politically and calculated to gain some teachers. We are losing them fast. political advantage. I would not mind if the students did not suffer. The Minister Mr. Carey: Are you in favour of their spoke at length about the changeover from going on strike? the Scholarship system and the transfer of Mr. HOUSTON: That is not the issue at 8th Grade to the high schools. When the all. When the Minister was on "Meet the Gov,ernment asked for a report on secondary Press" he made the same reply, so the hon. education, the Australian Labour Party put member should not buy into something-- in a submission and agreed that the Scholar­ ship should be abolished. With that we Mr. Carey: I asked you whether you have no fight at all. We are in perfect were in favour of it. agreement with the Government on that. Government Members interjected. Mr. Coburn: But you did not do it. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. HOUSTON: I agree, but if the hon. member wants it that way I can rake up Mr. HOUSTON: When the Minister was many things that hon. members opposite asked about solving the problem, he came did not do. Nor did they do it when the back with the magnificent reply that time Moore Government was in power. However, would solve it. What a way to tackle it! I am talking about the present. We did not Let us get action. The first step would be do it, but when we had an opportunity to to approach the Commonwealth Govern­ express our views we said, "Abolish the ment for a greater grant to this State. Scholarship." That is as far as I will go. The Minister indicated that the Govern­ W,hether or not it was wise to transfer ment is doing something about the shortage 8th Grade to the secondary schools is, of of teachers. What do we see in the Budget? Supply [27 OcTOBER] Supply 1189

Mr. Muller: You are making a very to be proud of what we have done in educa­ weak speech. tion. Never in my Life have I heard such a motion of censure of a section of our Mr. HOUSTON: The hon. member Public Service, the teachers~by inference and stayed and listened, anyway. In the union innuendo-as that presented by the Leader journal the president of the Queensland of the Opposition. If he had wanted to move Teachers' Union suggested that 824 more a motion of censure or criticise the teachers, teachers were required-570 at the primary he should have come out in the open. That is level and 254 at the secondary level. Pro­ what I would expect anyone to do. However, vision is made in the Budget for a further the hon. member chose to do it in a very 210 primary-school teachers and 162 subt>le manner that did not deceive anyone. secondary-school teachers. The Govern­ ment has not been prepared to make pro­ Mr. Houston interjected. vision this financial year for the number of teachers required. Mr. LONERGAN: The hon. member has a very slippery hold on his position now. The Minister made many statements He would know that better than I do. The about the way in which schools have been hon. member for Townsville North is peering improved over the years.. I have in over his shoulder, wanting to step into his mind a school in an mner Brisbane ;position. The position would be different if suburb which still has the old sani­ it were the hon. member for TownsviHe tary pan system. Every time we South. I would say he would be an able make approaches to the Department of leader, as he has done something for Education for a septic system for this TownsviHe. school, and it has an enrolment of 1,000 children, we get the same reply: either not I commend the Minister and, in the short enough money or the priorities are not time at my disposal, I propose to mention right, or some other make-believe excuse. some of the things done in my electorate by The Minister complained about the lack of this Government. Anyone who has taken an concrete under some country schools dur­ interest in po1itics can think back over the ing the time of the Labour Government, but years when the Flinders area, which at other surely in this modern day and age there times had different names, was represented should not still be primary schools in the by Johnny Mullan, Arthur Jones, Dick suburbs of Brisbane with the pan system. Riordan and last, but not least, Frank Forde And in some cases the disposal service is who was a Minister in the Federal House undertaken within sight of a class-room for many years and Prime Minister for a while the children are in class. That sort few days. During the short time he repre­ of thing is still going on yet the Minister sented Flinders I concede that he devoted gets up and says that it happened only himself conscientiously to the job. Unfor­ under a Labour Government. We are try­ tunately, it does not matter how well an hon. ing to be realistic. We know that it takes member applies himself, if he has not the time to do all that is necessary, but it is not backing of his party and the Government he in the interests of education for the Minister achieves nothing. I give Frank Forde credit to spend two and a quarter hours dissecting for battling to get secondary schools in my what the Labour Government supposedly area but, unfortunately for the kiddies, owing did not do, and telling us what this Govern­ to the indifference of the then Labour ment has done. Government, his representations fell on deaf ears. (Time expired.) The Leader of the Opposition said that Mr. LONERGAN (Flinders) (3.10 p.m.): they sacked the Gair Government for its This is one occasion when I am especially neglect. I point out that they never sacked happy to take part in the debate. It is not the Gair Government. The left-wingers did necessary to support the remarks of the not sack it because if Labour members had Minister, but I do so in voicing my appre­ ciation, and the appreciation of the electors stuck together the Gair Government might of Flinders, for what he has done. still be here, much to the detniment of Queensland. The Leader of the Opposition made the sort of speech I expected him to make. It Mr. Houston: How do you work that out? was totally different from what we would If they were sti11 here they might have the expect from Jack Duggan but, after all, he confidence of the people. had the ability and experience which comes only after many years in this Chamber. Mr. LONERGAN: I ask the hon. gentle­ man to look at the decimated ranks of the A point made by the Leader of the Opposi­ A.L.P., the disorganised rabble, the leader­ tion was that whereas the Minister spoke for less legion. That is the only way to describe two hours he had only 25 minutes in which to it. The hon. gentleman is only a temporary reply. It would not have made a bit of leader. The skids are under him. It will not difference if he had been given eight hours, make any difference because those who have because hon. members opposite cannot defend the ab1lity to lead the Opposition have not the indefensible. They have not a leg to the patronage of the Trades and Labour stand on. We on this side have every reason Council. 1190 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

When we became the Government the exceptions, and at present there is one in standard of our schools and of the very few my area. I shall not name the school or the teachers' residences we had was a disgrace. teacher, although I shall probably bring it Fortunately that is now an unpleasant to the Minister's notice if I have not already memory. Many of the young teachers who done so. It is annoying when an active and are now complaining about their conditions conscientious body of people working for could not realise the conditions that existed the good of a school does not receive from p11ior to 1957. They did not have to go the teachers the co-operation to which they to far-western areas and teach under intoler­ are entitled. Believe me, one would have able conditions, or live in substandard to go a long way to find a more active asso­ ·accommodation and work in drab, unattrac­ ciation than the one in the town to which I tive schools. refer. I hope that this unsatisfactory position will be rectified before long, so that the It is a matter of considerable satisfaction parents and citizens' association will again to me to be able to quote figures which rally behind the school, as it has in the past, the Opposition cannot deny. It is easy for and the happy state of affairs that existed an hon. member to endeavour to destroy for so long in this township will be restored. another hon. member's speech, but no-one can get over fa:cts and figures. In the last Mr. Davies: Would you like the teacher nine years of the Labour Government, from transferred? 1948 to 1957, £105,000 was spent on build­ Mr. LONERGAN: That was quite common ings, and that included teacher accommoda­ in the days of the A.L.P. Government. If tion. How the picture changed when we anyone sneezed or stepped out of line, he became the Government. In the first nine would be on his way; he could start rolling years of our Government, from 19 57 to his swag. I said in this Chamber only the 1966, £677,000 was spent on high schools, other day that the A.L.P. ruled by fear. high school tops, nCIW primary and secondary cla:ssrooms, and teacher accommodation. Before I resume my seat I should like to We were the first Government to build make a plea for a new building for the residences for high-school principals. We School of the Air at Charters Towers, and are proud of that. also a new transceiver, as it is called. The Minister well knows that at present the radio •In western areas where hotel accommoda­ equipment of the Royal Flying Doctor Ser­ tion was not available, single teachers were vice is being used, and consequently it is not faced with the problem of finding suitable possible to get enough time on the air to accommodation. It was not provided, and cater for the number of children enrolled. I they had to hunt around and secure it with appreciate what the Royal Flying Doctor Ser­ private families. Fortunately that also is vice is doing for the School of the Air, and ·something in the past. For single men I pay a tribute to Mr. Vern Kerr, the tech­ employed at one-teacher schools in my area nician, who has been most helpful over the ·and many others the Government has pro­ years. I believe that what I ask would cost vided excellent accommodation, and today from £20,000 to £30,000 (although I cannot they have no worries in that regard. see why), and I ask the Minister to endeavour When I was elected there was not one to make provision in his Estimates next year high school top in Flinders. The former for a new building and transceiver at member made many representations to have Charters Towers. Unfortunately, because of one built in Hughenden. After my election the limited time available, a large number I approached the Minister for Education and of children who are waiting to go on the air he readily agreed to build one there. As a cannot be enrolled. result many children, whose parents are on A new classroom is badly needed at the a fairly low wage and could not afford it, primary school at Hughenden, and I hope are now able to receive secondary education. that the Minister can meet the request that Today, we have three high-school tops in my I have made to him to provide one. Being area. That is one reason why I rise to voice a conscientious Minister who is interested in my appreciation of what the Minister has the welfare of the children, he visits schools, done for education in Queensland. The vote says "Hello" to the children, and takes a cast for the Government at each election personal interest in the state of the buildings, indicates the extent of the people's approval. so I am sure he is well aware how urgently Many people work behind the scenes in the a new classroom is needed. interests of schools, and I would be failing There is another point that I do not think I in my duty if I resumed my seat without pay­ should allow to pass unchallenged. The Leader ing a tribute to them. The Leader of the of the Opposition said that the greatest Opposition, no doubt through oversight, did number of delinquents was to be found among not give any credit to parents and citizens' the children who failed in their examin­ associations which do so much for the ations, although I do not think he was refer­ primary schools of Queensland today. ring to the real no-hopers. I point out to Mr. Low: And secondary. him that a report in "The Courier-Mail" last Monday showed that two highly educated Mr. LONERGAN: That is quite true. young people had forfeited their bail after Usually nothing but co-operation is received being arrested for disorderly conduct on the from head teachers. However, there are occasion of the visit of the President of the Supply [27 OcTOBER] Supply 1191

United States of America. They were trainee Before I proceed to discuss the Estimates, teachers, which proves, I think, that not all I should like to pay a personal tribute to the the delinquents in the community are men responsible for the various departments uneducated. administered by the Minister. They are experienced men; they have travelled the I have to leave for the North shortly­ world and they are well fitted to assist the naturally, I am happy to be going-- Minister in his administration of the various Mr. Wallis-Smith: Hear, hear! departments. Those remarks extend also to men like Mr. LONERGAN: I am sure that the Pat Killoran, who is in charge of the adminis­ hon. member for Tablelands agrees with me tration of the Department of Aboriginal and when I say that it is God's own country. In Island Affairs. I have seen Mr. Killoran at conclusion, I express my appreciation of the work at the very efficient stations on the work that the Minister has done for the Torres Strait Islands, and he is well fitted for young people of Queensland. The Opposi­ the work. tion could talk for the rest of the year and For many years now the Australian Labour not destroy the factual case that he has pre­ Party, both State and Federal, has urged for sented in introducing these Estimates. The a complete inquiry into all aspects of educa­ Minister is very approachable and helpful, tion, at all levels from primary to university. and I am sure that he treats all hon. mem­ For some reason or other the Commonwealth bers with the same consideration. It is a Government has opposed this request. As pleasure to be associated with him. a matter of fact, in 1945 Mr. Robert Gordon Mr. Maun: A nice man. Menzies, at that time Federal Leader of the Opposition, also urged for such an inquiry. Mr. LONERGAN: The hon. member for When he became Prime Minister, however, Brisbane is right. The State is fortunate the suggestion dropped right into the back­ to have such an able man in charge of the ground. Department of Education, and I hope that We believe an inquiry is necessary and we he will carry on the good work in the years regret that this State Government does not to come. urge for one. We know that the Minister Mr. DAVIES (Maryborough) (3.28 p.m.): realises-in fact, all the Cabinet does---that I am sure all hon. members were very there is a tremendous shortage of money pleased to hear the sincere and well-deserved and that the Government is not able to do tribute paid by the Minister to the late Mr. all that it desires to see done in the develop­ J. D. Story, Archbishop Sir James Duhig, ment of the State. I said in a recent speech and Sir Herbert Watkin, whose passing has that the Minister is in charge of one of the left the State much poorer. Their record in most difficult departments in the State, but the field of education in Queensland well within his own ranks he meets with a great merited the words of praise that he bestowed deal of opposition, and it is currently believed on them. that many Liberals in the Government believe that too much money is being spent on In my opinion, this debate should have education. In other sections on the Govern­ been kept on a non-political level, and it ment side there is an atmosphere of com­ would have been if Government back­ placency-we might say smugness-and for benchers had not made an onslaught on the the Minister to say that all is well in this Labour Party's record when in Government State while there are classes that are too in this State. Unfortunately, the Minister large and certain other things not done that tended to join in-no doubt is was in the he would like to see done, is only an excitement of the moment-and, therefore, endeavour to create an atmosphere of satis­ I changed my notes and now intend to show, faction and, with a Federal election coming once again, that the Labour Party, during up, indulge in propaganda for the Federal very difficult years, had a magnificent record Government. He does that by saying, "Well, of achievement in education. As a matter of money is not available; we do not expect it fact, I think the Minister was at his worst to be available. The Commonwealth Govern­ at the end of his speech, when he endeav­ ment is doing all it can." oured to convince the Committee that no It is a pity that the Government does not money was available in Queensland, or in face up to the situation as is being done Australia, to provide the things that are by the Minister for Education and other needed. leaders in New South Wales, who have pro­ I join with the Leader of the Opposition tested strongly at the shortage of money made in ackno'Pledging the good work that has available by the Commonwewalth Govern­ been done in the various sections of the ment. We disagree with him when he says department and over the length and breadth that all is weLl in the primary section. We of Queensland. Much has been achieved­ believe that the Commonwealth Government we acknowledge that-but we believe that is not interested at either primary or if greater sums of money had been available secondary level, and I intend shortly to make and if there had been possibly wiser use of some quotations to prove that assertion. the moneys that were available to the State At this stage, I say frankly that I believe much more could have been done in the Minister is very sincere in the adminis­ Queensland. tration of his department. He is very 1192 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

experienced, and no doubt head and shoulders difficult to say what stage in a child's life over anyone else in the Government who is the most important for the development of might lay claim to his portfolio. In regard its personality. Some say that up to the to representations that I have made to him third-grade age is the most precious period. on behalf of the people of Maryborough, The vocabulary acquired up to this stage I appreciate having received a sympathetic generally determines future progress. How­ hearing. I have not always been successful, ever, it is all very debatable. but I have received a sympathetic hearing in There is a refusal to recognise that there is my representations on behalf of the educa­ in existence a situation that is causing very tional centres in that city. I appreciate much discontent in this State amongst people also the construction of two science blocks who are thinkers. No-one can tell me that and the alterations and additions, and the they are all fools. Because of their loyalty construction of new wings that are to be to members of the Government some people commenced shortly in relation to technical refuse to face up to the situation. Premiers education. I appreciate what has been done and members of other Governments in Aus­ in the various schools, but on the over-all tralia are facing up to the problem. picture of the State we must admit that there is a shortage of experienced and trained We had further proof that there were teachers and that the students must suffer as problems at the last Liberal Party State a result of the shortage of adequate class­ Convention, when a motion was carried rooms and the over-crowding. There is a calling for the appointment of a committee of great problem in providing sufficient trainees. inquiry into the weaknesses of the education When it is all boiled down, it comes back system in this State, despite a plea from the to the question of money. If members of Minister for Education that the appointment this Government were prepared to front the of such a committee was unnecessary. That Federal Government boldly there would be motion was carried unanimously. It listed greater possibilities of our achieving satis­ several points of reference for the committee factory results. After the people of Queens­ of inquiry, namely, salaries paid to the land rejected the Federal Government candi­ teaching profession in Queen~land; scholar­ dates in 1961, some financial help immed­ ship allowances paid to trainee teachers; the iately flowed to this State. That could happen method of teaching and the matter taught to again. trainee teachers; tertiary problems of over­ crowding, incompetent academics and irres­ I feel that this Government has let educa­ ponsible students. tion down very badly by adopting an air of complacency and contentment towards the Evidently the Liberal Party considers these lot it is handed by the Federal Government. to be serious problems, but no voices have I do acknowledge what has been done in this been raised. It seems that the Government State. No child has been turned away because is not interested, and a sorry situation will there was no room in a school, even though develop in which the nation will not have there were overcrowded classrooms. Neither enough able people with training. was any child turned away when the Labour Mr. Murray: Did you attend for the Party was in Government. Maryborough Branch? Mr. Bromley: There have been from opportunity schools. Mr. DAVIES: This is a newspaper report of the Liberal Party's State Convention, at Mr. DAVIES: That is very interesting. I which it called for a special committee of leave that for the hon. member to deal with. inquiry into the education system. No insults, In New South Wales today the Govern­ cheap remarks or snide statements by Liberal ment is renting halls, using hallways, passage­ members in this Chamber can cover up the ways and aJ! kinds of accommodation­ position. anything at all-to accommodate school­ Mr. Gavin Semple, a high-school teacher, children. The problem had been tackled by a man with a stable outlook, an intelligent the New South Wales Labour Government, person and president of the Queensland but the new Government in that State has Teachers' Union, distributed a pamphlet had to cut down considerably on its demanding better education. This type of education budget. propaganda was never indulged in by State The urgent desire for further knowledge is school-teachers during Labour's administra­ common throughout the world; it is something tion. Statements like the ones in the journal we should be happy about. However, it that I have here were never found in the poses problems that must be faced up to. To "Queensland Teachers' Journal" under say that this country cannot afford to do what Labour's regime, and teachers were not afraid is necessary to help young people to acquire of reprisals. Public servants were transferred knowledge-even up to the adult education into the wilderness by the Moore Govern­ programme-is an attitude to be regretted. ment, but hon. members opposite cannot cite It could be adopted only by parties whose one case of victimisation of public servants outlook is that of the Country and Liberal in this State by the Labour Government. Parties in this State. Now we find "Publicity Material" in the Education should have top priority in this journal which has never before appeared in country. There is no way of catching up a the history of this State. Never have we year or two in the life of a young person seen pages like this in the journal! In the who misses education at a certain age. It is short time at my disposal I have not time Supply [27 OcTOBER] Supply 1193 to read all of what appears, but as the Minister was one of the first at that time Minister referred to teachers' colleges I will to recognise what was achieved in this State. refer to some of the comments that appear I remind him of one or two of his statements herein. It says- at that time which were appreciated very "Kelvin Grove Teachers' College was much. On 30 October, 1956, the Minister built to be a high school ..." said- It then continues- " I should first like to pay tribute to the work of the Chief Office of the Depart­ "More Staff Rooms are needed; seminar ment since 1951. They have introduced rooms do not exist; there are no special a sense of humanity into the Department rooms for Geography, Languages, that was lacking previously. I should like Language Laboratories, and the 'Film' or to pay tribute to Mr. Powell during whose 'Audio-visual' room does double duty as term of office the most rapid development an ordinary lecture room." of secondary education in this State has Later, it continues- taken place since high schools were first 'The ratio of students to lecturers is far established in 1910-15. The problem of too high-absurdly high when compared teacher shortage has been transformed to the ratio existing at the Queensland during the last five years but it has not University. This means, of course, more yet been solved by any means." highly qualified lecturers are needed. The number who sat for Junior jumped from "Staff meetings are held in double 4,442 in 1946 to 7,938 in 1956, and the lecture rooms. number who sat for Senior increased from "The Principal's own office is ridiculously 1,492 in 1946 to 2,212 in 1956. During small. Library facilities are shockingly these years Labour organised a tremendous inadequate." building programme when there was a shortage of materials and man-power, and Mr. Sullivan interjected. people on the South Coast were screaming Mr. DAVIES: It is a pity the hon. because they were not allowed to build member for Condamine did not urge the holiday homes. There was an increase in Government to do something about library primary enrolment from 120,000 to 200,000 facilities in this State. between 1944 and 1956. I am glad to see that at last the Minister Mr. Hodges: What year was this? has taken notice of the necessity to provide relieving staff, and I believe that he intends Mr. DAVIES: From 1944 to 1956. The to provide some relieving staff next year. Labour Government faced up to the problem The Minister and members of the Govern­ in a magnificent manner. For the benefit of ment say, "Everything is all right in Queens­ the hon. member for Gympie, I suggest he land. If there is anything wrong we can't read the political history of this State. Many do anything to help." The Country-Liberal members are sitting in this Chamber today Party is in charge of the Commonwealth as a result of the division that took place and the State, yet the Minister said it is between two factions of the Labour Party impossible to get money unless the public and have not studied the period to which I invests more in the public loans. The refer. Minister was at his worst when he In the 1955 Annual Report of the Depart­ discussed this matter. ment of Education the following statement In fairness to previous Labour Govern­ appears- ments, I draw attention to the fact that " In this State the difficult period in Labour governed this State during two world Secondary accommodation and staffing wars and a world-wide depression, and that will commence in 1959 and will continue for several years after the last war there into the 1960's. Steps are being taken to was a shortage of man-power and materials. meet this problem in the secondary In spite of all this, we did a magnificent job school." in facing up to the unprecedented upsurge I leave it to other speakers on this side of in population. Under this Government from the Chamber to deal with other aspects of 1956-57 to 1963-64 school population Labour administration. increased 27 per cent. From 1949-50 to In the years between the war and 1957 1956-57, under Labour, it increased 41 per Labour was planning a school transport cent. We had a much greater upsurge in system in this State, but many local people school population than this Government has opposed this social activity; it received a had. As to records of expenditure on educa­ hostile reception. The same happened when tion, from 1949-50 to 1956-57, under Labour, agricultural experts went into the Burnett there was a greater percentage increase than area and the Darling Downs area and said under this Government in a similar period. that contour farming should be practised to I remind hon. members of some other prevent erosion. They were laughed at. figures. In 1946, 7,628 students sat for the Finally they persuaded one person to let Scholarship standard for secondary education, them carry out that practice on his farm, whereas before Labour left office the number and farmers gradually saw the results. Now was 15,123. We had the serious problem of there is hardly a farm on the Darling Downs providing for the upsurge of school popula­ or in the Burnett area that is not contoured. tion at the primary-school level. The The same applies to herd-testing. 1194 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Many people today consider that school The following are the numbers of transport has gone too far. I suggest that secondary-school teachers in training when the Labour Government is returned­ expressed as percentages of the number of and it must be eventually-a committee of full-time secondary-school teaching staffs- inquiry should be set up to look into the Per cent. transport system. I admit that it has some New South Wales 46 advantages. But it also has some disadvan­ Victoria 50 tages. South Australia 64 Western Australia 40 Mr. Muller: What will it inquire into? Tasmania 21 Queensland 28 Mr. DAVIES: The system as a whole. I for one certainly consider that it has been The figures show that for some unknown extended too far. People had good reasons, reason the position in Queensland has not been dealt with as well as it has been in years ago, for opposing strongly the closure the other States. of schools. The Labour Government has been unfairly condemned because it did not In the amount spent on the training of have a wide transport system. It took time teachers, QueensJ,and is far behind the other to convince parents of advantages of a States. In 1962-63 New South Wales spent $7,384,000, Victoria spent $9,694,000, and transport system. Queensland spent only $1,544,000. The same remaJrks apply to high schools. (Time expired.) One might as well go back to the period Mr. CHINCHEN (Mt. Gravatt) (3.53 from 1860 to 1910 or 1915 and ask why p.m.): I associ·ate myself with the Minister's .high schools were not provided in that expressions of sympathy on the passing of period. As I indicated to the Minister, three great Queenslanders, namely Mr. J. D. there must be constant advancement, and for Story, Sir Herbert Watkin, and Sir James failing to do now things that should be Duhig. Undoubtedly they will be examples to our young people for many years to done, the Government would later be con­ come. demned. Prior to the defeat of the Labour Today the Estima•tes of the Department of Government, we went through a difficult EducaJtion are before the Chamber, and period. We opened high schools at Brisbane, it seems to me that the Opposition can find Banyo, Indooroopil!y, Kedron, Mitchelton, liHle to criticise. This year the amount to Salisbury, Camp Hill, Cavendish Road, and be spent is $8,680,000, or 15 ·1 per cent., Wynnum. There has been a tremendous more than the vote for 1ast year, which indicates a movement in the right direction. increase in the number of children of I am sorry that the Leader of the Opposition secondary-school age, and the Government is not in the Chamber, because I hate has done no more than meet the demand. speaking of people in their absence; pePhaps It could not have done anything else. The he will come in. Never have I heard in children could not have been left in the all my life a more intempemte speech than streets. The demand has simply been met, the one that he made. He blatantly attacke•d young people and referred to the ev,en if there is considerable over-crowding. increase in delinquency. I challenge his The Government has decided to take figures in this regard. certain measures in an attempt to overcome He said that delinquency is growing in Queensland, and he blamed its growth on the shortage of teachers. The Opposition education. In fact, he cast a reflection on regards this as totally inadequate. The the Department of Education and the teachers following is a table showing the number of in this State. I do not agree with the figures departmental teachers being trained per that he gave. There is at present-there 10,000 of population for the years 1962, always has been-a small percentage of young people who create problems of this 1963, and 1964 in various States:- sort. The Press has given publicity to their activities and tossed the question of delin­ State 1962 1963 1964 quency about, and there is an inclination on the ------part of members of the public to think that New South Wales 15·9 16·5 17·4 the percentage of these young people is higher Victoria 21·3 23·2 27·4 now than it has ever been. If one compared South Australia· · 24-4 26·4 28·5 Western Australia 17·6 16·3 15·6 the figures for this decade and the preceding Tasmania 17·2 17·9 20·1 decade, I think it would be found that the Queensland 10·6 13-1 14·6 percentage wacs very similar. In my day they were known as hooligans, but they were not glorified as they are today. Those figures are taken from the February If the Leader of the Opposition had had as edition of "Education News" for 1964, 1965, much to do with the young people of his and 1966, and the table on p. 262 of the electorate as I have had to do with the young Commonwealth Year Book. people of my electorate, he would know that Supply [27 OCTOBER} Supply 1195

thc:re are many young people doing magnifi­ from the Consolidated Revenue Fund. As I cent work in church clubs, youth clubs, and said, the figures are very significant. They so on. They can get to their feet and speak, show the importance the Government places and they express themselves much better than on education in comparison with the import­ we did in our day. I have a great admiration ance that the Labour Party places on it, and for them and for what they are doing. that should be kept in mind. I am very sorry that the Leader of the There seems to be quite an emphasis Opposition attacked young people in that way placed on the number of teachers available. and, furthermore, that he said that delin­ We all know-the Minister has told us­ quency flows from the education system that the trend is in the right direction; class under which they are brought up. He knows numbers are declining and, when one con­ as well as I do that children spend only about siders the large number of children involved, six hours a day in school. I do not think one must realise that for some reason or it is the responsibility of the Department of other people want something done overnight Education to train children morally. It that just cannot be done. The explosion in should teach them discipline and a number post-war births had a big effect on the situ­ of other things; but it is the responsibility ation and increased the number of young of parents and the churches to educate young people to be educated. people in morality. Surely that is done in the early years of a child's life. Education­ The number of professional people in our ists cannot be expected to accept such a community today is low because of the war responsibility. years and the depression years. It is inter­ As I said, I am very sorry that the Leader esting to note that that position exists in of the Opposition made such an attack. He every profession, although it does not show had no grounds or reasons for doing so. He up in every profession. School classes can plucked something out of the air in an effort be measured against teachers in terms of 20 to embarrass the Minister and the Govern­ to 1, 35 to 1 or 45 to 1, but we cannot ment, but his attempt failed miserably. measure the number of architects in the community by what they are doing. They Education is a big subject. l\fore people simply work longer and harder to take up are interested in it today than ever before, the slack. Engineers and all other profes­ not because of any failure on the part of sionals are in short supply, but the progress the Government but because educated people made by this department is remarkable. will naturally be interested in education. I When we consider that the number of prim­ do not think this could be expressed better ary pupils will be flattening out by 1970, this than it is by the Director-General of Educa­ will give us a chance to catch up. The tion, Mr. Murphy, in his excellent, very programme that will give us the teachers is beautifully-expressed and very comprehensive already in operation, and we are fortunate annual report. He said- indeed in the work done by the Minister "It is probably inevitable that the more and his department in this direction. highly educated a community becomes, the greater is the public awareness of the When I came into this Parliament three advantages of education, and consequently years ago I made a speech on the philosophy the demand for more and better education of change and the necessity for us in this facilities. The extent of public interest in State to develop a philosophy that would education at the present time can in a very allow us to accept change, not because change real sense be taken as a measure of the itself is good but because we cannot have educational progress during recent years." progress without change. We can see evidence that this has been happening last year; the I fully agree with that statement. There is Minister has been bold enough and big an awareness of education in the public mind enough to bring about changes. It is easy to because more and more people are becoming settle for the status quo, as has been done educated. We all want our children to be for 40 years. Everybody was happy because better educated than we are, and education there was no demand, but much has hap­ has progressed very rapidly in the last 10 pened in the last 10 years under this Gov­ years. ernment, not only in the provision of school The hon. member for Maryborough said buildings, furniture and teachers but in a short time ago that Queensland is not changes in the system of education itself. spending enough or doing enough in the One could take as an example the Cuisenaire field of education. I ask him to examine system and in-service training. It is excit­ carefully the figures quoted by the Minister, ing to look at what is happening in this which are very significant. In the last four direction and at the introduction of new or five years of Labour's term in office, it mathematics and science syllabuses in the was spending from 11 · 8 per cent. to 14 · 22 primary divisions. These things have prob­ per cent. on education from the Consolidated ably taken years to work out. It probably Revenue Fund. There was not very much took years to produce the new syllabuses money available, admittedly, but that was in these two sections alone, but it does not the highest percentage it could spend on stop there. There are new subjects in education. The Country-Liberal Government special courses in the Junior sections at high is spending 19 · 26 per cent. of the much schools. These are very important to people greater amount of money that is available who do not possess the abilities of the 1196 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

majority. These special courses were designed to the work on the Queensland Institute of to cater for such people, and they have been Technology, during 1965-66 construction extremely well accepted. work was carried out at the Central Tech­ We read in the report of the evaluation nical College; Eagle Farm Technical College; of a non-graded plan. This, of course, is Bundaberg Technical College; Cairns Tech­ a scheme that has been operating in several nical College; Mackay Technical College; overseas countries, both on the Continent and Toowoomba Technical College-- in some areas in America. The effect will Mr. Lloyd: None of this was done until be known later. It is a new approach in the Commonwealth Government came to thinking in this State. When one thinks of the party. the basis on which this Government had to operate 10 years ago, when there were vir­ Mr. CHINCHEN: It is not all Common­ tually no high schools and we had no tech­ wealth money. nical colleges or technological institutes, Work was carried out on the Rockhamp­ when all we had was a system of education ton Technical College; Queensland Institute fundamentally based on the old Scholarship of Technology, Darling Downs; Queensland examination-what a basis to try to work Institute of Technology, Capricornia. Pro­ from!-it must have appalled the Minister vision is made in the 1966-67 Estimates for to have had to attack this problem. But further work on the Eagle Farm Technical he has done it with great success. College; Kangaroo Point Technical College; Y eronga Technical College; Mackay Tech­ Mr. Coburn: And with great courage, nical College; Rockhampton Technical Col­ because nobody else would tackle it. lege; Brisbane Technical College; Bundaberg Mr. CHINCHEN: That is so. Technical College, and Maryborough Tech­ nical College. The amount spent last year I compliment the Minister for bringing on this work exceeded $1,250,000, and in about these wonderful changes that have 1966-67 $3,500,000 will be spent on tech­ been revolutionising education in this State. nical institute and college buildings. The whole of life in this State, and the This is a magnificent thing to see. It has people's approach to life are entirely differ­ been brought about only by the efforts of ent due to a great extent to this bold step the Minister and his department. There is taken by the Minister and his department. now a realisation of the need for technical When the history of this State is written, one education in this State. These things are of the great men to be recognised will be the happening. The institute itself will be opera­ present Minister for Education. ting on a much fuller basis from the start Technical education interests me greatly of next year. I am interested to know that because I came from Victoria, where tech­ staff has been recruited from all States of nical education is very highly developed. I the Commonwealth. I am sure everybody imagine that technical education in Victoria will be agreeably surprised when they learn would be 30 or 40 years ahead of that in the calibre of these people. this State. Victoria divorced technical and high-school education about 40 years ago. I take the opportunity to make one or Technical education was not heard of in two suggestions. I have a number of State Queensland until a few years ago. We have schools, including two high schools, in my to realise that until recent years the need electorate-and, of course, the new university for technical education did not exist to a site. I am disappointed, of course, that there great extent in Queensland. The need was will be a delay of a year or two in the con­ not there until this Government built a struction of the new university. I can well backbone of secondary industry into Queens­ imagine that the Australian Universities land. What has been done is quite a Commission knows what it is doing and that romance-the two have gone side by side, in the long run we may get the new industrialisation and the development of university on time. technical educational facilities. On my own observations, and from some of those made by friends in the teaching Mr. Bennett interjected. profession-and I use the word "profession" Mr. CHINCHEN: The hon. member for advisedly, for I think teaching is a profession South Brisbane knows as well as I do that which should be highly paid and highly but for secondary industry in this State, respected-! have a few suggestions to make. during the recent drought Queensland would Teachers carried a tremendous burden dur­ have been completely bankrupt. Secondary ing the period of change in the education industry has carried the State through. Now system. I greatly respect what they are we are witnessing a great development of doing and hope that their conditions, finan­ technical education throughout the State. cially and materially, may continue to improve. I also have a great respect for the Probably not many hon. members have department, which is doing a wonderful job. taken the trouble to look at what is taking However, I believe that communications are place lower down George Street. I have vitally important, whether in industry, the been there and have studied the plans. The State or a department, and I think that building programme for the near future is communications in this department could be really amazing. I spoke to the Director of better oiled. There should not be such a Technical Education about it. In addition strict, totalitarian attitude in the department, Supply (27 OCTOBER] Supply 1197 which should operate as a closely knit team. I should like to see more travel, not only For instance, I suggest that inspectors should for senior people but also for those at the act as advisers, not as assessors. Inspectors more junior levels. They must see what is should visit the schools and sit down with going on. I know it is being done, but I the head teachers and discuss their problems should like to see some acceleraui

situation prevails at the Banyo High School, of the causes of delinquency. Once children where the number sitting for Senior this get to high school they are introduced to year is down by one third compared with all sorts of things, including the use of lip­ the number who sat for Senior last year. stick, dressing up after school, attending That is the position, despite increased enrol­ dances that the older pupils attend, and gen­ ments at secondary schools. erally engaging in an undesirable form of There is perhaps a reason for it. I think premature sophistication. that young people in secondary schools today Mr. Miller: That does not happen at the are becoming a bit "browned off" after two Toowong High School; I should like you to years, and this trend will probably be know that. accentuated from this year onwards when the first of those who entered high schools at Mr. MELLOY: I cannot accept that; I Grade 8 standard proceed to the Junior think it happens at all high schools. The examination. At that stage they will have hon. member cannot answer for every child completed three years at high school instead at the Toowong High School, any more than of the previous period of two years. I think I can answer for every child at the Banyo that after the Junior examination this year High School. there will be a higher percentage of what The Minister has spoken of the develop­ might be called "drop-outs". ment of education services during the period Mr. Sullivan: Why do you think that? in which the Government has been in office. This has been a natural and logical expansion Mr. MELLOY: Because only a quarter of along with the development that has taken those who sat for the Junior examination place in every other branch of governmental after two years at high school proceeded to administration. It is happening in every Senior standard. With those who have been State of Australia. It is not peculiar to at high school for three years, including a Queensland or to the Department of Educa­ year in Grade 8, I feel that there will be a tion in this State. greater inclination to drop out. What is the Minister's attitude to the Mr. Sullivan: Do you think it was a mis­ question? He admits that there is a short­ take to do away with the Scholarship? age of teachers, but he says, "That is noth­ ing. There is a shortage of teachers in Mr. MELLOY: No; that is another matter every Australian State". I accept his ana­ altogether. What I do not agree with is the logy and apply it to the building of schools. transferring of Grade 8 from primary to secondary schools. I think that children I say, "The Government has not done any­ should have remained at primary school for thing out of the ordinary. Similar building the Grade 8 year, and spent two years at is being done in every Australian State". high school to attain Junior standard. Young The Government of Queensland has shown people, some 12 years of age, now leave no peculiar virtue in that respect; as a primary school and mix at high school with matter of fact, the education system in entirely different types of children. They Queensland is lagging behind the education are older, some up to 18 years of age, and systems in other States. have developed physically and psychologically Let us look at the circumstances sur­ to a much greater extent than have those rounding the development of educa­ at primary schools. As I have pointed out tional services in Queensland. Since 1957, to the Minister before, some Grade 8 pupils according to the Government, there has in high schools reach a stage of premature been record development in industry, mag­ sophistication in their early years. nanimous assistance from the Common­ Mr. Sullivan: There would not be Grade wealth Government (I am speaking gener­ 8 students 18 years of age. ally now, not only of education), good seasons, record wheat crops, record wool Mr. MELLOY: No. I said that Grade 8 clips, unprecedented production of coal, pupils are associating with young people 18 bauxite, copper, and sugar, and a record years of age at high schools. These very intake of immigrants in the State. As I young students soon adopt the manners and have pointed out, it is natural and logical practices of girls of 15, 16, and 17. One to expect all these things to tend to increase sees them dressing up, using lipstick, and financial and social development, but none attending dances, and it is impossible to of them is attributable to the administration judge whether they are 16, 17, or 18. of the present Government. Mr. Sullivan: Don't you think that parents Mr. Sullivan: What are you talking about have a bit of responsibility in this? -record wheat crops? Don't you know there has been a drought for five or six Mr. MELLOY: They have, but it is equally years? well known-- Mr. Sullivan: They have the first responsi­ Mr. MELLOY: There has been one bility. drought since 1957 and the Government's finances have gone down the drain. The Mr. MELLOY: That is true, but it is well development that has taken place in prim­ known that parents do not always concern ary industries, secondary industries, the themselves with their children, which is one mining of coal, bauxite, and other minerals, Supply [27 OcTOBER] Supply 1199 and the increase in the number of immi­ Labour Party proved itself. In those post­ grants have made the extension of educa­ war years Queensland developed as it had tional facilities not only desirable but abso­ not developed from 1929 onwards. lutely essential. The building of additional In 1949 came the greatest blow of all to schools was a natural consequence of the Queensland with the return of the Liberal development of the State. It would have Party Government to Canberra, and we have been done if an Australian Labour Party suffered ever since. Despite the claims of Government had been in power, and I the present Government, the Federal Govern­ suggest that the Country-Liberal Govern­ ment is still hamstringing the development of ment has had everything in its favour for Queensland. The cry all the time is that we the logical development of Queensland. It do not get sufficient money from the Com­ has not been the result of the implementa­ monwealth Government to develop the State. tion of Government policy; it would have taken place under any Government. In The Minister said that many high schools spite of this, the Minister for Education have been built, but how many primary seeks to take credit for this Government for schools have been closed in the same period? all the development that has taken place, Certainly some facilities in regard to trans­ particularly in education. port were provided. But if there were 10 to 12 ch~ldren attending a school that was closed, Let us look at what happened when the I think it would have been preferable to leave Australian Labour Party was in control of the school available in that district. This the Treasury benches in Queensland and at closing of facilities while the population is what it had to contend with in the years increasing is consistent with the policy of before the Country-Liberal Government this Government. This year we have came to office. What happened in 1929? experienced record crime, yet there are fewer There was an economic recession or depres­ police stations. sion, which lasted from 1929 to 1935, and every person in the State had to struggle to Mr. Bromley: And the police are over­ exist. It was a very difficult and trying worked. period for the Government. As a matter Mr. MELLOY: Thaet is so. of fact, in about 1931, a Government that had had only one term in office threw in the Getting back to the number of children towel. It just could not cope with the sitting for the Junior and Senior examina­ situation, and the Australian Labour Party tions, I should like to quote some figures. came back in full force to take over the In 1961, 19,003 children sat for the Junior reins of government, as it always does in examina:tion. Of those 19,003 who sat in times of crisis, not only in this Parliament 1961, only 6,000 sat for Senior in 1963, a but in the Federal Parliament. drop-out of 66 per cent. That is the problem facing young people In 1935, after the depression, there was today. They have the fear in their minds a high level of unemployment, but no that if they do not leave school and go to Government could have expanded services. work after Junior they will miss out on It was a period of rehabilitation for indus­ employment. And it is a very real fear, try and for the people generally. The because many young people today go on for unemployment was caused largely by pri­ Senior and then find that they can only get vate enterprise, which the Government jobs similar to those that were available to lauds at every possible opportunity and says Junior certificate-holders two years earlier. is preferable to Government enterprise. They think, "Why should I go on to Senior Private enterprise fell down on the job in if I can only get the same job then as I the industrial development of this State. can get now after Junior?" In 1962, 22,363 sat for Junior and in 1964, the number who That took us up to 1939. I am outlining sat for Senior was 7,643, another drop-out this period to indicate the difficulties that of 66 per cent. beset the Government of Queensland in the development of the State and to compare This trend will have to be corrected. We the position then with the high prosperity are continually hearing about the development period that this Government has enjoyed and mechanisation of industry, the need for over the last nine years. educating young people to meet the demands of such mechanisation, and the advances in From 1939 to 1945 we were engaged in technologicael and industrial development. the Second World War, so who could be blamed for any failure to expand facilities I now wish to refer to several m&tter in that period when every resource of the included in the Estimates. I am country was devoted to the war effort? How more than agreeably surprised with the could we be expected to build high schools development that is taking place at the and things of that nature during that period? Queensland Agricultural College at Gatton. That is what the Austra1ian Labour Party I am very pleased to see that provision has had to contend with from 1939 to 1945. been made for an additional 14 instructors this year. The new lecture theatres are mag­ From 1946 to 1949 there was a peniod of nificent buildings. There will be additional rehabilitation, when we were again faced with inducement for young people to attend Gat­ the effects of war in that it was a building-up ton when they know that sufficient instruc­ period, and that was when the Australian tors are available. 1200 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

With the increasing use of television in However, I believe that any charges made schools, I was very disappointed to see that against this Government by the hon. member only $3,870 has been provided for "Visual for Nudgee were anticipated by the Minister Education, Radio in Schools." I do not when introducing his Estimates and, even if think that sum will meet the demands in he did not cover some of the matters, I am the next 12 months. I expect tremendous sure he will deal with them when summing development in the educating of children up the debate. through the medium of television, develop­ The hon. member for Nudgee said that ment undreamed of even five years ago. If at a couple of speech nights he attended we are to make full use of the medium of recently school principals indicated some television in educating children, we must dissatisfaction. How different is the attitude provide the necessary equipment. Certainly in my electorate. On Thursday, Friday and that amount is nowhere near enough. Monday, the week before last, I attended There has been a tendency on the part of three speech nights. The attitude of the the Government to direct all the available principals was indicated in their annual finance to the establishment of new high reports, and from them it could be seen that schools, and to neglect high schools that teachers, students, and parents have nothing were built eight or nine years ago. The but praise for what this Government-and Banyo High School has been in need of an particularly the Minister for Education and administration block for the last six years. his departmental officers-are doing for the It has been on the planning board for that education of our children. period, but we never seem to be able to get It sickened me to listen to the criticisms the project any further. On my latest levelled at the Minister for Education. Jf approach to the Minister I was told that hon. members opposite were sincere they finance was not available this year to pro­ would have cheered every statement he made ceed with it. In addition, the playgrounds when presenting his Estimates. Even our have been neglected for the last six years. greatest political opponents will agree that I have made frequent representations to we have done a remarkable job in developing the Minister about the grounds of the Nudgee education in Queensland. I commend the Beach State School. There is a swamp within Minister and his departmental officers. As a 30 yards of the school building, but despite member of the Government I have a wonder­ inspections by various officers of the Depart­ ful feeling of security, which is so different ment of Works, and many promises, we are from that of hon. members opposite, who still waiting for the Department of Education recently had to elect a new leader and deputy to fill in this area, which is a menace to the leader. They had to come up with a couple health of the children and restricts the of "roughies". The Premier has indicated available playground area. I hope the that he will retire next year. How reassuring Minister will give sympathetic consideration it is to know that we have the Minister for to this matter in the very near future. Education, Mr. Pizzey, who has done so much and has proved himself in the admini­ Cribb Island State School, which has an strative field. As Premier of this State he enrolment of about 300 pupils, lacks a par­ will continue the excellent work he has done ade ground and septic system, although the while Minister for Education. schools on each side of it have a septic system. Nudgee Beach State School, with I commend the Minister for his references only 25 to 30 pupils, has a septic system, to the three deceased gentlemen, Mr. Story, and so has the Pinkenba State School. Sir Herbert Watkin, and Archbishop Sir Despite many inspections and promises, the James Duhig. All too often men who have Cribb Island school is still waiting for a done much for the public are foi'gotten, but parade ground and septic system. Boondall the Minister's statements about the great State School has a similar problem with its work done by these grand gentlemen will be grounds. They are in a shocking condition, on record, and will be available for future but the department has made no attempt to generations. They were golden men in the do anything about them. golden age of education. There is no doubt that by expressing our appreciation the In the Estimates for the Department of Minister will win the favour of people in all Native Affairs the Item "Incidental and Mis­ walks of life. cellaneous Expenses" is causing me a little concern. In 1955-56 the sum set aside for I am deeply grateful to the officers of this Item was $125,622. This year the the department who have administered Estimates provide $366,555. I have no doubt Government policy and have achieved that there is a good reason for the tre­ so much in the nine years we have mendous increase of $240,000, but there is been the Government. I think, in a debate nothing in the Estimates to indicate the such as this, it is incumbent on a member reason for it. It could cover a multitude to relate what has been done in his electorate of sins. I should like to know what are the and to bring to the notice of the Minister sins, or the virtues. and his departmental officers anything that still needs to be done. The Minister has Mr. SULLIVAN (Condamine) (4.41 p.m.): given us the story State-wise. I support If I were to observe the correct rules of him by saying that what has been achieved debate I would spend some time in refuting State-wise has been achieved in a smaller statements made by the previous speaker. way in the Condamine electorate. Supply (27 OCTOBER] Supply 1201

The Minister said that prior to the advent When he speaks on these Estimates, the of this Government secondary education in hon. member for Gregory will no doubt country areas was, in the main, the preserve state what a wonderful thing the pastoral of children whose parents could afford, by college that has been established at Long­ some sacrifice, to send them to boarding reach will be for lads who want to follow schools. This applied as much in Conda­ this industry. It interests me because there mine as in any other country electorate. will be boys from my electorate, and others Because of Government policy and the similar to it, who will avail themselves of untiring efforts of the Minister, who realised the opportunity to attend it. That the col­ the need for better education, 98 per cent. lege is to be administered by a board of of the children in my electorate have practical men is most important, because they secondary education facilities per medium of know the problems of the area and what the school transport services. It is yonng lads shonld be taught. important for children of that age to be I believe that Mr. John Park was a good at home with their parents at night where selection to head the college. He was in they can study under supervision in their charge of the Junior Farmers or, more home environment with proper discipline. recently, Rural Youth. His selection is an excellent one. He is a very dedicated man, We were not satisfied with 98 per cent. and I am sure that hon. members on both The Minister indicated this morning and the sides of the Chamber will follow the develop­ Treasurer pointed out when introducing his ment of this college. Budget that we are assisting children who Much has been said by members on both live in remote areas by subsidising to the sides about the development that has taken extent of $200 the cost of their boarding place at the Queensland Agricultural College away from home. Country people appreciate at Gatton. The Minister outlined the courses this. available. I believe that what he said is most important, because not all who go to the Mr. O'Donnell: I asked for that five years Queensland Agricultural College want ago. diplomas. A lad can have two years' train­ ing, then return to the land and apply what Mr. SULLIVAN: The hon. member may he has learnt without gaining a diploma. have. He is a responsible person and I hope he did. He would possibly have supported I believe that a very appreciative attitude what we put up to our Minister. I am towards the Department of Education has fair in this regard. In my electorate there developed in recent years, particularly are only four areas where this will apply. through secondary education. I pay a tri­ That is as it should be. I appreciate the bute to the work done by parents and citizens' associations in assisting the principals concern of the hon. me:Q1ber for Barcoo, and teachers of schools. In my electorate >vhose e·lectorate is more far flung than it pleases me greatly to go to speech nights mine, and the concern of the hon. members and other functions at schools where I see for Gregory, Flirrders, and Roma, who were the splendid relationship between the prin­ vociferous in our Party meetings back in cipal and staff and the parents and citizens' my early years as a member. That is some­ association. This makes a story in itself, thing that this Government has given us. and I am sorry that I have not time to tell Last Saturday week the Minister for Main it in full. At the Chinchilla High School, Roads opened a swimming pool at Jandowae. the parents and citizens' association, assisted It would not be there had it not been for by a subsidy received from the Department the poHcy of this Government-it was of Education, has helped to provide at this actually the Minister's brainchild-to subsidise very new school a magnificent playing area. local authorities in the building of swimming Whilst this type of co-operation continues pools in small country towns that could not between parents and citizens' associations and afford them. I am grateful, and on behalf principals and staffs, the education system of the people of Jandowae I thank the will assuredly improve. Minister for his assistance in providing a In his contribution to the debate the hon. swimming pool in Jandowae where the member for Mt. Gravatt dealt at some length children will have an opportunity to learn with technical education. I want to develop to swim. that theme a little further, because I am proud of our record in this field. The train­ Thes·e are the things this Government has ing of technicians is of great importance in done·. They are the things thaJt have helped the State's industrial development, and tech­ the Government to stay in office. I have nical education should be available to all increased my vote by 5 per cent. each elec­ young Queenslanders who desire it. One thing tion. I do not say that that! is solely the that concerns me is the absence of an appren­ result of the representation I give; I give ticeship for diesel mechanics. In primary and some credit to Government policy. If we secondary industry today the diesel engine is had a policy that was not acceptable to the fast taking the place of petrol and kerosene people, I feel that we would lose rather t'han engines. I understand that consideration is win votes. People everywhere are most being given to the establishment of such an appreciative of what the Government has apprenticeship course at the Technical Col­ done in the field of education. lege. 1202 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

In recent months the need for training of There is no quick cure for this situation; diesel mechanics has been brought to my but the Queensland Institute of Diesel notice by reputable men in my area who are Engineering, which comprises 200 men in engaged in mechanical work, and I have had all branches of the industry in Queensland, the opportunity to discuss the matter at some and which knows the planning of the rele­ length with the President of the Queensland vant parts of both the motor mechanics' Institute of Diesel Engineering, Mr. McCabe. course and the fitters and turners' course at I have compiled some figures that I think technical colleges, believes that skilled are interesting, and if I put them before the instructors are available in Queensland. If Committee the Minister and his departmental those men require any further information officers may consider providing an apprentice­ ship in diesel engineering in this State. or knowledge, the institute is prepared to make instructors available to them. It is There are about 10,000 diesel-powered prepared to co-operate with industry and pieces of earth-moving equipment in Queens­ provide, free of charge, further instructional land and about 60,000 diesel tractors on equipment, such as parts and cut-away sec­ rural holdings. There are many times this tions, to the various firms and Government number of diesel-operated buses and trucks, departments. It can be seen that the cost to stationary engines, trawlers, and diesel loco­ the Government, and therefore to the com­ motives both in the Queensland Govern­ munity, will be negligible compared with ment Railways and in the canefields. Per capita, Queensland is the biggest user of the gains that will accrue from such a diesel equipment of all the Australian States, scheme. and it might surprise hon. members on both It is conservatively estimated that there sides of the Chamber to know that there is will be about 30 apprentices in the first year. not one properly qualified man to service The institute would be pleased to have a this equipment worth many millions of member on any administrative apprentice­ dollars. Inefficient and piecemeal mainten­ ship advisory council, and it is prepared to ance of that machinery is increasing costs in have discussions with the Minister and primary industries and road-making and is departmental officers at any time. I make retarding the development of the State. that suggestion and recommendation because Despite the facts that I have given the I know that the Minister has indicated that Committee, Queensland has some highly with the development that has taken place skilled diesel fitters and mechanics-some of in our technical education he is prepared the most skilful in the world-but the cost to keep in step with changing times. I hope of training these men, which has been borne that, as a result of bringing this to the by industry and by Government departments, notice of his department, we may be able, has been astronomically high. Individual in the near future, to look forward to an fitters have spent a great deal of money on apprenticeship course for diesel mechanics. textbooks and correspondence courses and I have recently been advised that the have burnt the midnight oil to achieve their manual training block at the Chinchilla skills. The main distributors and Govern­ school is in this year's programme and that ment departments conduct their own schools, tenders are being called very shortly for the and one firm spent over $30,000 last year erection of that wing. I am most appreci­ and is budgeting for an even higher expendi­ ture this year. The combined costs must be ative, and I express appreciation also on staggering, and they are passed on to the behalf of teachers, the pupils and the people consumer. of Chinchilla, because whilst we have had technical training facilities at Chinchilla they Mr. Sherrington: Who wrote that? have been situated three-quarters of a mile from the high school. I know there are other Mr. SULLIVAN: I wrote it myself; but schools that do not have these facilities at I will be honest and say that I have bad all. When these facilities are established discussions with members of the Queensland we will have a technical training section at Institute of Diesel Engineering. I do my the Chinchilla High School of which we will own homework. I do not send up to the be very proud and for which we will be very hill and then read out in this Chamber what grateful. The people of the district are is sent to me, as bon. members opposite do. worthy of it. It will be the result of the I tell the story so that the Minister and his policy of our Government of making the best departmental officers can consider it. educational facilities available to children in country areas. Manufacturers are supplying very sophis­ ticated equipment for carrying out private I have to put to the Minister, too, a testing, but much of the equipment is idle. request to have something done to improve Because of the lack of trained operators, the facilities at the Warra State school. I repairable components are being scrapped. am aware that the Government can only Reputable garage-owners have told me that do what the money available to it will allow, because men skilled in the servicing of diesel but I feel that Warra has been slightly pumps, diesel tractors, and so on, are not neglected over the years and, if it is at all available, many parts that could be repaired possible to fit it into the programme this have to be replaced, thus increasing the cost financial year, I am sure the people of of maintenance. Warra will be most appreciative. Supply [27 OCTOBER] Supp/1· 1203

As this debate on the Estimates of the their children, and of the altered attitudes Department of Education develops, I am cer­ and thinking towards what is required for tain that the praise of the Minister and the the forward movement of our State, and officers of his department will ring out on Australia as a whole. many occasions from members on this side. In bygone days people did not ask so I think, too. that many members opposite much in day-to-day living. There was not are appreciative of what is being done but, the density of population or the complexity of course, they apparently are not prepared of requirements so necessary in this scienti­ to stand up in this Chamber and say so. fic and technological age, when more and Mr. Ramsden: They have to toe the party more specialised knowledged is a positive line. ''must". Times have changed, perhaps slowly in some years, and then quite Mr. SULLIVAN: The hon. member just explosively in recent years. This is applic­ beat me in saying so. able not only to Queensland-it is world­ There are certain people within the wide-and Queensland needs must follow Teachers' Union who are trying to stir up the pattern or be left behind. That, I sub­ strife, and, of course, hon. members opposite mit, would be obnoxious to both sides of have to support them. In spite of the sup­ the Chamber, and to our people as a whole. posed dissatisfaction that exists among some I am sure that many people in this State teachers, I have not had any complaints of are concerned about the fact that Queens­ it. I am around my schools on speech nights land spends less on education than any other and there is very little dissatisfaction in my Australian State. I will not give the figures area. Recently I was guest speaker at a because they are already in "Hansard". seminar of Jaycees in Dalby at which the The hon. member for Toowoomba East Teachers' Union secretary was the other gave them to us in his Budget speech. speaker. He is quite a decent fellow; he is To hark back to what the Labour Party not a radical by any means and I was able did, or did not do, in bygone years is to convince him, along with all the delegates similar to comparing the horse-and-buggy from the whole of the Darling Downs who days with the motor-car era of today. Every attended this Jaycees' seminar, that things year brings more advancement and more are not nearly as bad in the Department of improvement. Maybe before too many Education as some Teachers' Union officials years have passed the motor-car will be out­ would have us believe. Some teachers will dated. Just as transport has changed so, tell you that they have never had it better; too, have education and educational require­ others will tell you that they have never had ments. There is little use in being destruc­ it worse. Perhaps those who say that they tively critical of the past. No Government have never had it worse are being instructed is ever able to satisfy everyone. One has to say that-I do not know. only to compare the numbers in the classes Opposition Members interjected. when I went to secondary school and the numbers today. Mr. SULLIVAN: Hon. members opposite representing city areas do not come in such The Minister spoke of the increase in the close contact with the teachers as we do in number of pupils. Take the Ipswich Girls' I the country areas. I have every respect for Grammar School as an example. When sat for Junior there were 16 pupils sitting the teachers. Those who know them per­ for that examination and only eight sitting sonally find that they appreciate what we are doing throughout the State. I am sure for the Senior examination. Of course, they were the depression years, and statistics and that we are not up against any crisis, as requirements of those days cannot be used hon. members opposite try to indicate. No as a reasonable or fair comparison. doubt when the Minister answers their criticisms he will be able to convince hon. For many years, because of the declining members opposite that what I am saying is birth-rate the call for increased educational true. facilities was not so great. Many schools, particularly high schools, had room for many I do not have any problems concerning more students, both teaching-wise and the Police Force. We are very pleased that accommodation-wise. There were empty we have a very good body of men serving spaces, not bursting seams, as today. It our area. is little use being destructively critical of Mrs. JORDAN (Ipswich West) (5.6 p.m.): the past and comparing it with what happens I believe that these Estimates are the most today. Let us get on with the job today important that come before the Committee. with our sights firmly fixed on the future. Education, good or bad, is the basis of all I am particularly pleased about three things thinking. I am sure that all will want to that have evolved and become apparent. see good education, and progressively First, I am pleased that the Commonwealth better and better education. I am sure Government has changed the attitude it held that everybody appreciates what education for so many years in not coming into the means to our State and, indeed, to all education field and that it has now allotted nations right around the globe. Nowadays money to assist the States, more particularly people have a much greater appreciation in the provision of science blocks for of what education means to the future of secondary education. This is concrete 1204 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply evidence of recognition of Commonwealth are very fortunate that the Ipswich State High responsibility, and it is at least a start on School already has its science block and, as the path to giving further assistance to the a consequence, the students have much better States and to Queensland in particular, with opportunities and varieties and curriculum. which we are more concerned. This will, The Ipswich State High School held its fifth I hope, lead to further involvement and speech night last night. From fewer than greater assistance by the Commonwealth. 100 people at the first speech night, it now In the past the assistance went mainly to has 923 students. As I said, it has been the university, but after the publication of most fortunate in that there has been con­ the Martin Report a new outlook on, and sistent development of school buildings since support for, tertiary education developed, the school was opened five years ago, and and the Commonwealth Government agreed it has been fortunate in getting one of the to give assistance for technical education. first science blocks in the State. The prin­ This appears to be attributable to a greater cipal, Mr. J. A. Sparkes, is a very dedicated appreciation by the Government and people man. He takes a special interest in his pupils of the social importance of education and and advises them as to their future and on an acceptance of the need to improve it the courses that are suitable. He is very in all its forms. We now see the Common­ receptive to approaches from parents. I must wealth Government coming in and giving pay him special tribute for that. assistance to secondary schools, particularly for science blocks. The growth of the high school, and indeed of the whole residential area around it, has Second, I am pleased with the State been fantastic. The land for this high school Government's decision to spend more money was acquired by the Labour Government in on education in its allocations this year, the 1949. So Labour did look ahead and did greatest increase being in the new field of prepare for future needs. I say this because technical education. This indicates that the I know it, and what happened in my area State Government also realises that education has happened in other areas. So that Labour has a high priority. Once that is admitted did prepare for high schools in the future, and decisions are taken accordingly, more and it did look ahead. Sixteen years after and more can be expected much more quickly the purchase of the land, the high school was than hitherto. I am not saying this to the opened. Requirements ~ave. _changed and Department of Education and the Govern­ attitudes have altered. It Is nd1culous to use ment for political reasons, but for the sake the yardstick of past decades as a criticism of our children. I think they are the ones of what Labour did. Maybe Labour in we have to be most concerned about. We Government would have done as well, if not must always keep in mind our children and better taking all things into consideration their future, and what a good education can and 'taking into consideration altering do for them. To them, every year lost in attitudes of the people as a whole towards providing a better education is a year lost forever. It may alter the attitude towards education. adult life of hundreds of children. I am My criticism is that not enough is being concerned about them, and the Labour done quickly enough, and further, that there Party in Opposition is very concerned, just is a restriction on the freedom of the public­ as every parent should be concerned. school teacher at any level to speak out, In the third place, I believe that we can offerin" criticism on education. They are the be very grateful in that we have so many very p~ople who know, from practical experi­ dedicated "Professional Educators" at the top ence, what is required and can offer construc­ of our education service in Queensland, in tive suggestions. I am sure that most of them all spheres of education, and numbered are so knowledgeable and dedicated, par­ among many of the principals of our State ticularly dedicated, that there would be very high schools and other secondary schools. little destructive criticism. This is a field At this time of the year we have a spate of knowledge that can arouse great public of speech nights and we hear many speeches interest in educational practices and policies, by the professional educators, who use such and a field that can be of great benefit to the nights to try to instil attitudes of interest advancement of education of our children in in learning into both students and parents. this State. All told, I have six high schools in the electorate of Ipswich West. They include The Department of Education has, to a the Ipswich State High School, the Boys' great extent, leant on the dedication of these Grammar School, the Girls' Grammar professional educators and has given them School, the Ipswich Technical College and little encouragement. Many teachers stay St. Mary's and St. Edmund's High Schools, with the department because of their dedica­ as well as nine large State primary schools tion when they could receive higher remun­ and the Ipswich State Opportunity School. eration outside. Indeed, it is this question All these schools have large enrolments. of adequate remuneration that I believe is the main cause of the acute shortage of Perhaps I am fortunate in that the elec­ teachers in the department. It is little wonder torate of Ipswich West has been well served that there is unrest in the Queensland with educational facilities. Because of that, Teachers' Union-unrest such as I have never I am perhaps not as critical of this depart­ known before. If the teachers are concerned ment as some other hon. members are. We in such numbers as they appear to be, then Supply [27 OcTOBER] Supply 1205 there must be cause for concern. The teachers covered by the Institute of Technology will themselves are cognisant of many things that alter this situation and give more oppor­ need attention. tunities for those who lean more to the It is a great pity that the Federal and practical skills. There are many parents State Governments do not realise the need who thrust their children into courses beyond for !n.creased teacher training, both by the their capabilities, resulting in failure and :provisiOn. of more training colleges and the frustration. There are, too, parents who IntroductiOn of a longer period of training; lack the capacity to encourage their children and also the need for more in-service train­ to attain greater heights in education. The ing for those who are already teaching. important thing for teachers and parents is to be able to light the spark of interest. With altered curriculums and methods Often in the past, by rigid attitudes and this is very. necessary, and (as I said in my parrot-like teaching, the spark was speech durmg the Budget debate) in my extinguished before it had a chance to glow. ~umble opinion in-service training is In this technical field, a number of Important enough to merit the closing of students travel to Brisbane from Ipswich schools for a week now and then to enable several nights each week to study, and they teachers to receive concentrated training. do that after completing their day's work. Teaching methods have altered· knowled!Ye They are acquiring an education the hard ha_s !r:creased; and subjects h~ve chang~d way. There is no easy way of acquiring it, pnontJes. Many teachers have been in the but working during the day and studying at teaching service for years, and such training night is, I believe, the hardest way of all. would be of great assistance to them and However, it does produce sincere students particularly to school children. The' cost who really are interested in their future and would be money well spent. really want to learn. If they were not, they .I read some~here recently that it had been would throw in the towel very early in the sa1d that we m Australia put "cars before piece because of the difficult conditions ki~s" and, in terms of money relatively spent, under w~icJ:l they have to study. I appeal th1s would appear to be so. Again I think to the Mrmster to endeavour to make avail­ that we have our priorities wrong. It should able even part-time facilities for evening be "kids before cars", and the education of students at the Ipswich Technical College. our children should have a very high priority. It is also a matter for regret that the At the Ipswich State High School speech Department of Education has seen fit to night last night we were very fortunate to discourage people from attending the hobby classes at the Ipswich Technical College. haye . as guest speaker Dr. A. M. Fraser, The fees have been doubled-I am not pnnc1pal of the Queensland Institute of going to complain about that, because costs Technology. It was particularly fitting that have increased-but what really is important he should be the guest speaker at a hi!Yh is that the requirement is now 14 students school in an. industrial cit>: such as Ips,wich. with a h_ard co~e of 12, whereas previously What he smd was very mteresting and I it was e1ght, with a hard core of six. ~now that _he interested a number 'of boys m proceedmg to the technical field. He Mr. Pizzey: Don't you think they should gave a lucid picture of 1:he pattern of the pay their way? three steps of tradesman technician and technologist. ' ' Mrs. JORDAN: I said that I am not com­ plaining about the cost. ~ am personally extremely pleased that th1s new sphere of education has been Mr. Pizzey: We must have the numbers develo1;ed, especially as I represent an to make them pay their way. mdustnal electorate in which many trades­ Mrs. JORDAN: The Minister will find me;n have bee~ trained over the years-and that people will come forward if the course tramed exceedmg well-at the Ipswich Rail­ is. provided. If it is discontinued, it is very way Workshops. I feel that the Govern­ d1fficult to get sufficient people together to rr:ent's 1;olicy of giving repair work on support a request that it be reopened. d1esel ra1l-motors to private enterprise is a very backward step. I repeat that I am not complaining about The hon. member for Condamine referred the additional fees; if people want such courses, they must pay for them. However, to the: absenc~ of an apprenticeship course there are people who look for classes of this for d1esel-engme mechanics. For quite a type for their children. When my boy was number of years the Ipswich Technical attending primary school, he went every College has given attention to the trainin!Y Saturday morning to a hobby class at the ?f thc;se required by 1:he Railway Department Ipswich Technical College. That was long m th1s field. '!'hey are trained under an before he proceeded to secondary education apprenticeship to the trade of fittin!Y and and long before he became interested in turning, and much of their trainin!Y rel~tes to engineering, as he is now, and a number of diesel engines. "' his school friends also attended the class. There has been much wastage over the I still have in my home furniture that he years because some scholars have taken made at the classes, and I value it. I cer­ academic courses unsuited to their tainly would not replace the bookshelves and capabilities and capacities. The new field little side tables with modern furniture. In 1206 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

my opinion, a hobby such as that is wonder- because there is no doubt that there is much ful for It gives them something to do ferment in the field of education in Queens­ and to think about instead of land at present. It involves parents and running streets getting into trouble, teachers in hot discussion. Perhaps the as many are doing today. I am very dis­ children, the subject of it all, are the least appointed that these classes are to be dis­ concerned. Of course, it is inevitable that continued. some aspects of this discussion might touch I wish to deal now with the need for the the Minister and his senior officers, but I establishment of standards in school libraries still think it is a good thing. I think they and for more Government assistance to will also recognise that this discussion is school libraries. The view that a library is worth while, even though it does touch an simply a room with books in it and that a exposed nerve at times. librarian is a person who issues the books for reading for entertainment has been a I can remember that for years it was an popular one for too long. On the contrary, axiom of politics that one could not win the world's store of knowledge is growing an election on an educational issue. Whether so rapidly that teachers cannot hope to that was so or not-it probably was not, impart even a portion of what many children may need to know. It is becoming more as are so many of the things we used to and more necessary for children to be able take for granted in politics-it certainly does to read and learn independently of their not hold true today. Although at many teachers, to gather knowledge and continue levels teachers may be dissatisfied with cir­ educating themselves, not only in childhood cumstances, parents also should be concerned but in a way that sets a pattern throughout about the future of their children; this is their lives. In childhood they need guidance good, because it tends to focus attention on by trained librarians, and libraries should con­ the subject of education. It also tends to focus tain books to enable them to supplement their the attention of political parties on this most studies. Libraries should be a source of books vital of all community services, the prepara­ and other material to enrich the school tion of our children for adult living. studies, and librarians should provide guidance There can be no doubt that the Govern­ in reading and what to read and help pupils to ment has a splendid record in this regard. understand that the school library can be a Every suburb, every centre, provides quite centre of educational activities from which tangible testimonials to the fine educational both teachers and students can benefit. It achievements of this Government, with the should be the heart of the school. aid of the Commonwealth. There has been In Victoria, Western Australia and New a tremendous surge forward in many South Wales much more emphasis is put on aspects, such as university education and this conception of school libraries, and the secondary schooling, and the abolition of Departments of Education in those States the Scholarship examination, which resulted support and develop them accordingly. in many more children going on to second­ Queensland has not yet realised, to any ary schooL There are all the new aspects extent, the need for improvement in school of the curriculum, and last, but certainly libraries. The Brisbane Girls' Grammar not least, there have been many new tutorial School, with Mrs. Needham as librarian, is methods. developing this attitude, but that school is one of the few in Queensland to do so. These are huge changes and great advances, and I think that as far as the Parents and citizens' associations are Minister is concerned; he is unfortunate doing something towards helping in this because the scope of all these advances direction, but they already have a heavy tends to be obscured by two factors. burden. I think we all know, as members The first, of course, is the pressure of of this Parliament, just how much of a numbers; that is the preasure that load the parents and citizens' associations is exerted on every phase of education, carry in helping towards providing facilities no mater what is done, as the num­ at schools, and I feel that this matter of bers of students ,rise. The other is the fact providing library assistance and librarians that the period in which we live is an era at high schools should be done inside the of fantastic change. This makes constant structure of the Department of Education and huge demands for adaptation and and the educational system itself. change both in curricula and in teaching techniques. Mr. PORTER (Toowong) (5.31 p.m.): This debate commenced today with a very So we have the unfortunate paradox that complete and comprehensive, and thor­ while more is being done for education oughly interesting, review of education in every year, people are not satisfied-and this State by the Minister. It was a great rightly so. No matter what is done, it will pity that it should have been followed by never be enough. I take it that the Minister so remarkable, intemperate and almost and his officers will recognise this and accept uncouth an outburst by the Leader of the it philosophically. Whilst they may feel at Opposition on what is a very vital subject. times that there is great ingratitude, neverthe­ Mind you, I am not in the least averse to less they must take it in their stride. Theirs argument and discussion on this subject is a field in which is required adaptation, Supply [27 OcTOBER] Supply 1207 flexibility and enthusiasm that will not hesi­ I do not think it does sufficiently. Certainly tate to make changes as they become neces­ it has improved appreciably over recent sary. We have to introduce innovations to years-markedly so in the last two years. make sure that our education system never Mr. O'Donnell: Do you say you are capable lags behind education. of thinking, in spite of your education? It has been said that the sum total of Mr. PORTER: lt is quite obvious that the human knowledge doubled in the decade hon. member is not capable of appreciating between 1950 and 1960. I do not know what I am endeavouring to say. I am making whether this is true, but even if it is true no attack on his party at the moment, but a only in part it serves to emphasise dramati­ few more interjections from that side may cally the enormous problems that now face lead me to say something about the past. educationalists. I suggest that our education system tends I think we have to ask ourselves: what to put too much emphasis on young children should be the basis of learning? To what end gulping down facts. I think there is some do we direct our programmes? How do we appeal 1o creativity at the very early primary ensure that, in an age where technology is stage. The new mathematics method is a very becoming more and more specialised with noticeable improvement in this direction. every year that goes by, boys and girls will However, as children move along in the later learn that the great ends of life are not served primary stages they soon find out that it is by gaining purely material things? In other necessary to gulp down facts, and when they words, it seems to me that with living move to the secondary school there is pre­ becoming progressively more complicated as cvous little to stimulate their taste buds for we have more things to live with, the question thinking. The way we have to prepare under to decide is what we live for. our matriculation plan there is precious little Education must play a part in teaching time to stop and think, or to stimulate classes us what we live for and how best to use all or individuals with reseatch projects. Perhaps those things that science and technology are the concurrent type of matriculation exam­ pouring into our laps. So I would say that inations planned for the end of 1%8 will help the aim of education is not merely to supply in this regard. children with knowledge; it must also aim at We have moved, and very rightly so, raising the general level of understanding in to the position where all children can a community. I would say that this matter now sup at the table of secondary schooling, of the fundamental aims of education brings and that is most desirable. This being so, us right up against the major problem. Here, I think it is more than ever desirable that common to most States-and probably com­ we should recognise that different children mon in many countries-we have had a have different digestive capacities for learning, system which for decades has been geared to and also that there are differences in each the concept that every child who starts school individual at different stages. In other at the age of five years must inevitably finish words, there should be a very wide variety up at the university-that every boy and girl, of items in the educational menu. I think step by ordained step, must follow the path we must get away from any perversive which leads to the university campus at an uniformity. age of 18 or 19 years. Of course this is Mr. O'Donnell: What you are saying is neither true in fact nor desirable in theory. at least 30 years old. Thank goodness this is so. Some of us have an academic mind, some of us have Mr. PORTER: I know it is old, but the not. Thank goodness we are all different. whole trouble in our education system is that we are struggling out of the barren, This concept of education in this State­ dark policy that the Labour Government something which was started many years ago adopted for so many years. That is our -has tended to put education into something greatest problem. of an academic strait-jacket. We are only now beginning to struggle out of that strait­ To a large degree the capacity of schools jacket. We have had a system of education to teach and of children to learn is inevitably with a very heavy emphasis on uniformity, and closely bound up with the quality of and a system of examinations to ensure that the teaching staff at all levels of education. there was uniformity. In my view the effect It is here, in this field, that much of the of this has been to exaggerate at all levels of present discontent in education is engen­ education the role of memory. If a child dered, and it is here that a great many of can remember the main elements of the our present problems could be solved. curriculum from one year to another, from Mr. Davies: Can you tell us how we will one examination to another, he or she will get more money? finish up in due course with a pretty fair Mr. PORTER: I will tell the hon. member scho.lastic record, but in actual fact this has if he will only be patient. very little to do with learning in its proper sense. It has nothing at all to do with Education in Queensland-and we are not cleverness in its proper sense. So I say that alone in this-suffers quite heavily from a one of the major acid tests to apply to any continuing lack of properly trained teachers. system of education is: does it help boys and I use the words "properly trained" in their girls to think? I wonder if ours does enough. simple, literal sense. If we are to overcome 1208 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply this deficiency quantitatively and qualitatively is necessary as a short-term measure-and I we must cope with the real problems of say "even if"-most certainly it should always teacher prestige and professional status and, be considered in the light of its grave long­ of course, adequate rewards. I put "adequate term disadvantages, because at a time when rewards" as third on the list in teacher wants. all the fields of knowledge are visibly expand­ In turn, this requires that we must face up ing and when university courses are becoming to such questions as decentralising decision­ more and more demanding, it seems a great making in education. If I may put it this pity that our schools should find it increas­ way we must have academic freedom at all ingly difficult to prepare girls and boys levels, especially in the middle level. I hope adequately for entrance to the university. 1 will not be misunderstood when I say that we should treat education as being The first-year failure rate in universities is, much bigger than just another Government of course, prime proof of this. department. It seems as though, having deliberately It is generally agreed that one of the prepared an educational system with this hallmarks of any profession consists of narrow academic end, that is, entrance to the the freedom it enjoys to mark out and university, we are even preparing to fail on control its own destiny and to study its own this narrow criterion, so I make this earnest codes and professional practices. Neither plea for the earliest consideration of separa­ in this State, nor, perhaps, in any other tion of teacher-training from teacher-employ­ State, does education enjoy that right at the present time. The Public Service status ment. I believe that would solve many of teachers in Queensland and in other States problems. is not paralleled in England and America. "In-breeding" was mentioned today; and a This means that our teachers become subject to very heavy-and I think quite undue­ very distasteful word it is. But of course our emphasis ~m seniority and on conformity Department of Education has for many years w1th estabhshed methods and practices. Our tended to obtain its top staff from those who teachers are certainly not encouraged to come from the system, and they in turn deviate. prepare people to go back into the system. I know the problems that could arise if Mr. Davies: Is this a vote of no-con­ we allowed freedom of deviation from fidence in the Minister? accepted methods, but education in its best sense, wil~ I?eed this. I very earn~stly suggest Mr. PORTER: It is not indeed. to the Mm1ster that the training of teachers should be removed from the control of the Mr. Davies: It sounds like it to me. Education Department. In other words we ~hould e~sure that the employing auth~rity Mr. PORTER: In that case the hon. mem­ m educatwn IS not also the teaching authority. ber is either not listening, or he has not the I believe this would be a very real step capacity to understand. I said at the start that towards. a professional status, and a higher a tremendous amount has been done in a field academ1c level. I know that the Minister has of such change and variety that no matter this in mind, but its coming depends on how much is done it will never be enough. practicalities. The principle has been quite The Minister involved in administering this well canvassed, and has been well received portfolio has a record that would be magnifi­ in Australia. cent in any other portfolio. He is still subject to some recommendations for improvement. I believe that the Australian College of But it is certainly not criticism. Education in a report towards the end of last year strongly urged this procedure. I under­ So I think that this separation would shift stand that New South Wales is moving, in to other shoulders some of the problems part at least, towards this end. The Martin that now rest on the shoulders of the Report suggested an independent authority Minister. I think that even hon. members to teach teachers. The British Robbins opposite, even the hon. member who has Report, of course, went a little further and been making such persistent interjections, recommended that the training of teachers would agree that we should avoid a system should be founded in colleges incorporated where the teacher is told precisely what to in a university school of education. teach, and in turn he tells the children pre­ cisely what they have to learn, so that both All of us recognise the dimensions-and the teacher and the children tend to be they are enormous dimensions--of the prob­ recipients of pre-digested information which lems posed by the great expansion, in recent they have to assimilate on order and regurgi­ years, of secondary-school students. I think tate on demand. To me that is not an the expansion simply outstripped the available education system, and I should hope that we supply of good qualified teachers. I suppose would do all possible, as we are already perhaps inevitably the tendency was for the doing, to steer ours away from that. The gap to be bridged by lowering qualifications. adequate training of teachers is a huge prom­ But this is rather fatally easy to do when lem; I freely admit that. It is easy to stand the employer is also the teacher, for then here and make recommendations for the we can quite neatly tailor supply to demand. future, but is it difficult to find ways in which Even if the lowering of standards for teachers recommendations can be put into effect. Supply [27 OCTOBER] Supply 1209

I believe that if a separate teaching free hospitalisation system. That is another authority were established-! shou1d like to white elephant that we have inherited from see it set up by statute-it might well previous Governments. attract Commonwealth aid, which we need _I have said before-and I say again-that for education purposes. But I want Com­ w1th the step towards providing teachers monwealth money without the loss of any wrth status, prestige, and independence, many of our sovereignty in the field of education. ?f the problems presently causing agitation I think this might be one way in which m the field of education in this State would Commonwealth aid could be brought to the be resolved. I think we could then look field of education, with control still remain­ forward to a fully staffed teaching service ing with the State. Although rhe Federal in which teachers stayed be-cause the rewards Government has all its other commitments, were adequate and in which their sense of it has done a great deal in the field of vocation could be very well fulfilled. We education-infinitely more than any other would then have a teaching profession with Government has done in the whole history the. reqyired academic depth at all levels, of Federation-and I have no doubt tha:t it wh1ch 1t does not have now. We might will do more in the future. even consider introducting sabbatical leave for senior teachers, and we would then be In the training of teachers, I do not know assured of a continuation of the hirrhest if the· two-year course at the Treachers' professional competence in what I thi;k is Training College can turn a student into a the most vital of our community services­ good professional teacher. That, of cou~se, preparing our children to lead useful and seems to be fairly well agreed. I thmk happy lives. this sys.tem also tends to fan the discontent caused by the division between teachers who Having said all that, I repeat that in no have had university training and those who sense is it criticism. I recognise well the have not. What is very badly needed at enormous problems that are involved in the moment is a strong, unified teaching carrying out any type of recommendation profession. At the present time, one year calling for substantial change in education of university study plus one year at the as it is currently being implemented in this Teachers' Training College admits teachers State, but I believe that recommendations on probation to the staff of a secondary should be made. I have endeavoured to put school. I doubt if that is good enough. I forward some useful recommendations that should like to see a separate teacher-training are in line with educational thinking on the authority established by statute, and I would highest lev.el in all States. I hope, therefore, hope that it might attract Commonwealth that later m the debate I will not hear any­ financial aid. thing that .I ~ave said being twisted to sug­ gest that 1t 1s a vote of no-confidence in ·I should also like to see the end of the Minister, or something to that effect. It the bonding system and the problems is not. involved in it. Although that is not some­ (Time expired.) thing that can be done overnight, I should like to see at least the prospect of it. I Mr. P. WOOD (Toowoomba East) (5.56 think it would have a great deal to do with p.m.): I regret that the hon. member for providing the professional status and attitude Condamine is not in the Chamber because that teachers, at least in my experience of I wish to comment briefly on so~e of his remarks. them, seem so desperately to require. The hon. member spent fully five minutes I think the Minister and his officers will of the 25 minutes available to him telling agree that we must always set our sights the Committee how well he knew personally on adequate teacher-training, not on any the teachers in his electorate and how fre­ stop-gap objectives. We should also have quently he visited the schools in the Con­ the clear aim of bridging, as soon as possible, damine electorate. I say to him that I spent the present gulf betwe·en those who have 12 months at the largest school in his elec­ been university-trained and those who have torate, in the capacity of either senior been trained through State colleges. We teacher or acting head teacher, and I did need money .for education; let us try to get it, not see him once in that period. My service if possible from the sources I have mentioned. in that school, the school at Chinchilla, At present the States divert on an average extended from March of one year into about one quarter of the annual expenditures March of the next year, and it included the to education. The Commonwealth, however, activities at the end of the year, when many spends only about 3 per cent. of its budget hon. members representing country elector­ on education, and most of that is spent at ates usually visit schools. I think that the the tertiary level. There is obviously a great suggestion made by the hon. member that he deal that the Commonwealth can do if it knew the teachers in his area personally and that they had told him they had no cause wishes to do it. for complaint and no feelings of discontent We in this State might well have been should be exposed for what it is. spending a great deal more of our income When introducing the Estimates this on education had we not been wedded for morning, the Minister spent some time in so long to this peculiar concept of a so-called boasting of the expansion that has taken 41 1210 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

place in secondary education in Queensland The department should advertise in other during the term of office of the Country­ systems for senior officers. Liberal Government. I want to say that I think his boasting was justified; but I add The. exchange of teachers between Queens­ that, but for a change. of political fortunes land and the other States and Queensland in this State, a Labour Minister could well and overseas countries should be extended have been making the same boasts. considerably. Queensland is constantly los­ ing teachers to other States, the Common­ Mr. Dewar: Not on previous evidence. wealth, the armed forces and to overseas Mr. Bromley: You were educated under countries. I do not see any reason why it a Labour system. should be one-way traffic. Mr. Dewar: In spite of it. Mr. Pizzey: It is not one way; we have Mr. P. WOOD: In discussing the Estimates hundreds of teachers who were trained in before the Committee I think it is appro­ other States. priate to pay a tribute to all the people Mr. P. WOOD: That may be so, but I throughout Queensland, in whatever capacity do not think we are getting as many as we they are serving, who are working for the lose to other places. We are making slow improvement of the education system. I progress in overcoming the teacher shortage. include in my tribute all the officers of the Department of Education, from the lowliest Before I enlarge on that I will repeat to the highest. In whatever capacity they what I said a moment ago, that we should are serving, wherever they are serving, they encourage teachers to travel overseas. I are giving great service to education and to am pleased that the senior officers of the the children of Queensland. department have been able to make over­ I believe that complacency about educa­ seas tours, and I hope this policy will con­ tion in Queensland must be overcome. It tinue. I think nothing but good can come exists not so much within the system of from it. I think also that teachers and education itself as in the minds of the head teachers also, whatever their standing general public. Most members of the public and classification, should be encouraged to -and I have made these remarks before­ travel overseas. At the moment I do not were raised under the present system of think any encouragement is given to the education and, because of that, it is difficult ordinary teacher to travel overseas. I see for them to see the system as anything but no reason why a teacher who spends three good. Opinion polls in Queensland and in years overseas and teaches for two years of southern States suggest that electors are that period, or one year of it, cannot be more concerned about education than they allowed a classification increase, if he is due are about other issues. I suggest that it is for one, according to the time he was teach­ a rationalisation, that people believe that we ing while overseas. It would be easy to show should be concerned about education above how much time he was occupied in teaching all other issues. Speaking generally, I doubt while he was away. whether that really is so. At the moment, a teacher who travels [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] overseas loses any classification increase that Mr. P. WOOD: I was saying that may be due to him, even though he might I believed there was complacency in the have taught for one, two, or more years general public concerning our education while he was away. The experience he standards. Considering our high living would gain while he was away would be standards it is hard for the general public most valuable but it is not recognised by the to understand the future danger that lies Department of Education. in a deficient educational system. Through­ As I said, we are making slow progress out history the strongest nations have been in overcoming the teacher shortage and, at those with the highest standard of educa­ the present rate, it will be many years tion, and our best capital investment is in before the desired ratio is reached. Taking education. my figures from the annual report, from I regret to say that Australia does not 1964 to 1965 there was a 2 per cent. increase match the educational levels of the most in the children attending our schools; in advanced countries in the world today. I the same period there was a 3 · 6 per cent. think we need a change of attitude towards increase in the number of teachers in the education, a change of attitude in those who schools. I do not intend to predict exactly administer the education services and a how many years will pass at that rate of change of attitude in the general public. increase, before a satisfactory ratio between This will not be easy to achieve. The Min­ teachers and pupils is established. Up to ister this morning took exception to the August 1965 1,521 teacher resigned from term "in-breeding" but I think it is a term the Department of Education. In the that can validly be used. It is not easy to same period in the same year 1,088 change attitudes in a system that does were admitted to the Department. We encourage in-breeding. We have State­ are losing more teachers by resigna­ trained teachers who are supervised and tion than we are gammg by admis­ examined by those who have already gone sions from the colleges. Teacher trainees through the system. cannot match resignations. We have to rely Supply [27 OcTOBER] Supply 1211 on re-admissions of teachers to the Depart­ more initiative in the classroom. Both the ment-mainly married women. The Min­ primary and secondary syllabuses are very ister will admit the serious difficulties the full and very comprehensive. There is scope educational system would be in if we did in the primary syllabus and in the secondary not have these married women. syllabus for a teacher's initiative-for a teacher's own ideas to be developed-but both Mr. Mulier: Would not many of the resig­ the syllabuses are very full. When a district nations be of women who marry and leave the service? inspector visits a school he conducts an examination to ensure that all requirements Mr. P. WOOD: Yes. We have to rely of the syllabus are fulfilled. on their coming back later to keep the There is a well-worn path to promotion in teacher numbers up. the Department of Education. It is not a Mr. Hughes: Do you object to employing path that has encouraged initiative, new ideas married women teachers? or enterprise on the part of the teacher. The teacher who wants to develop his own ideas, Mr. P. WOOD: No, but the number of or the teacher who wants to depart from trainees coming out of colleges should be the well-worn track laid down, is running the closer to the number of teachers resigning. risk that he will not subsequently obtain the With 1,521 resigning last year and 1,088 promotion he wants. I find that the hon. coming out of colleges, there is too much of a member for Toowong was speaking on similar gap. It is difficult to know how the depart­ lines. Freedom of action should be given to ment can improve its recruitment of teachers. head teachers and staff teachers. Following the 1965 Senior examination the department offered 2,750 scholarships to For a short time I taught in London, and teachers' colleges. It could get only 1,033 of as a matter of interest I will relate my those accepted. My figures are taken from a experiences. On my first day at the school reply the Minister gave me to a question. I met the head teacher who passed the Probably the department recruited all students normal courtesies with me. I was then who gained the minimum qualifications. If I shown by a staff member to my classroom. am wrong the Minister will correct me. The I had to teach children of 11 or 12 years department probably recruited all the teachers in the primary school. I point out in advance it could. A total of 1,033 accepted scholar­ to hon. members that practices vary tremend­ ships after the department offered scholar­ ously from school to school in London. There ships to 2,750 students. was nothing at all in that room to indicate what I should teach, or how I should go Mr. Pizzey: Moat Senior students apply about my teaching. The head teacher for everything about the place. assumed that I was a professional person Mr. P. WOOD: I am giving the Minister's who knew the requirements of the children own figures. If the department offered 2,750 in front of me and it was my responsibility scholarships-- to decide what I should teach them and how I should teach. That is a very free system Mr. P~zey: It did, but you would know and I do not suggest that we should neces­ that almost everyone sitting for the Senior sarily afford that degree of freedom in our examination puts in for everything. Queensland schools. However, we should strike a compromise between that very free Mr. P. WOOD: I hope that the Minister system and the very tight system that applies will tell me in his reply whether he could to teachers in our education system. have got more than 1,033 who did accept. If more students had accepted perhaps more Another important matter is that the people scholarships might have been granted. who pass judgment on our education system are also those who administer the system. The Minister has planned to offer 300 Those who administer the system are obliged extra scholarships for next year. I am won­ to defend it and this can lead to some dangers dering whether he would have taken them in that when criticism occurs it will be if he could have got 300 this year. They dismissed, or excuses will be made, because may not be available. those who are responsible for the department have also to pass judgment on it. Hon. There are two ways to gain more recruits members will appreciate the difficulties that for the teaching service and to retain those can arise. We have in our system a already teaching. dichotomy. We have two branches in our The first and most obvious way is to pay system and both branches do not necessarily better salaries. The Government will say work together. The executive section of that that is a matter for the Industrial Com­ the Department of Education and the teachers mission. I do not want to speak at length may not be working towards the same end, about that. It is on the other ways that I and that is unfortunate. I feel that the want to spend a few minutes. It is in these public relations between the Department of other ways that the department can take Education and the practising teacher, positive action. It can improve its attitude wherever he or she may be in Queensland, is towards teachers; it can improve the profes­ at a very low level. To many teachers the sional standing of teachers; it can improve Department of Education is an anonymous, teaching morale considerably by giving soulless organisation. I make it quite clear teachers more freedom-by allowing them that the dislike of the department does not 1212 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply extend to departmental officers. Wherever 10,000. But too often teachers feel that they I have been I have found that departmental are not trusted by the department and that is officers, whether in head office in Brisbane, a tragedy. Teachers will not see themselves or regional offices in the country, are as professionals unless they are able to act invariably highly regarded and respected. But as professionals in the schoolrooms. Teachers there is a dislike of the department as some who are free to participate in education anonymous mass above the teachers and policy-making will be better teachers. this has been well illustrated by teacher Teachers should have some degree of auto­ resentment, and teachers' talk of strike in nomy and independence in regard to educa­ recent months. Teachers feel that there is tion matters. The union must eventually no communication between them and the assume the responsibility for establishing department. I think that Ministers have their confidence in the integrity of its members. public relations officers-and they probably This necessarily will be a 1ong-term measure. need them-but some firmer action should The department must relax its iron: grip on be taken to establish a better relationship teachers. Before this can ever happen, between the teachers and what they refer teachers must be better trained. Three years to as "The Department". When they refer at the teachers' college will be necessary. to "The Department" they do not speak of it in very kind terms. I am sorry I do not have longer to spend In this debate we have heard a great on the next subject, namely, in-service deal about over-large classes. I have figures training. Facilities for in-service training for Toowoomba classes that I will quote will need to be vastly improved. I am sorry if I have the time, to indicate the percentage that the Minister spoke so briefly on this of over-large classes there. subject. He said there was a feeling of inadequacy amongst teachers and he went I wish to bring to the attention of hon. on to say that there is an increased need members the conflicting statements made for in-service training. I hope to hear more about the effect of the birth rate on our of that in this debate. class sizes. If the Minister is correctly reported in today's "Telegraph", he said- I heard an officer of the department refer "The Education Department had to draw to the new mathematics programme as a on people born from 1929 to 1945 for revolutionary new idea. District inspectors, its teachers. In this period there was a I am pleased to say, were given one week diminishing birth rate, and now there was in which to familiarise themselves with this a rising birth rate." revolutionary new idea of mathematics teaching. Teachers themselves will be obliged That was in explanation of the difficulties to have just one day of instruction in this experienced in class sizes. Yet the same new mathematics programme. Let me quote Minister, when interviewed on a TV a few remarks from the instruction given to programme on 16 October, was reported in 1eachers in connection with seminars on the 'Telegraph" of 17 October, as saying- in-service training in the new mathematics "He predicted that the falling birthrate programme. It says- allied with tapering sizes in classes would "Schools with more than three teachers ease the burdens on schools." must remain open." In one in1stance we are told that the birth­ rate is falling and that it will ease our ln large schools only a fraction of the educational problems; in the other instance teachers who in time will be teaching this we are told there is a rising birthrate and new mathematics syS'tem will be able to that it is increasing our problems. go to the seminars. It says further- "Attendance at a seminar is voluntary. Mr. Pizzey: There is no inconsistency No expenses will be met by the there. It is starting to fall now, as you know. department." Mr. P. WOOD: The Minister, as reported Teacheffi who are faced with what has in the "Telegraph" said- been described by a departmental spokes­ "In this period there was a diminishing man as .a revolutionary system are not birthrate and now there was a rising rate." allowed expenses to attend seminars. That With all the money we spend, with more is entirdy unreasonable. One day at a teachers, with better teachers and with bette•r seminar on a revolutionary mathematics facilities our major concern is the teaching programme is completely unrealistic. that goes on in the classroom. Money is important; facilities are important, but the I asked a question not long ago about most important single· factor is the profes­ in-service training in opportunity schools, and sional work of the teacher. The Minister I was given an answer that filled almost a column of "Hansard". I compliment the and his department must do all that is author of the reply. But it indicated that the possible to promote the professional status department sponsored little in the way of of teachers. Not everything that is possible in-service training. I hope that the Minister is being done. will give consideration to a considerable In the first p'lace the department should extension of in-service training. I should like do more to show that it trusts its teachers. to see a system in the future-! suppose it is a There are bound to be a few rogues amongst long-term measure-under which teachers Supply [27 OcTOBER} Supply 1213

with two or three years of practice after leav­ to the idea that Ministers should be empire­ ing the teachers' college can have six months builders, and the strength of the Public Ser­ --on full salary of course-at some permanent vice should be looked at closely from year institution on in-service training and post­ to year. graduate· training, to allow them to learn In 1964-65 there were 27,462 people in more about their profession. the Public Service. This year there are 30,470, which is an over-all percentage rise There is a gap between educational theory of 10·96. That may or may not be justified, and research on the one hand and classroom and I think the figures warrant critical practice on the other. One of the marks of examination from year to year. The teach­ a professional is the possession of specialised ing profession is, of course, in a different knowledge. I am not sure that teachers after position. When I see that there has been leaving the teachers' college acquire all the an over-all increase of 13 · 93 per cent. in knowledge they can acquire. Class I teachers two years, I find myself with no argument in 1959 numbered 2,209 or 27 per cent. at all. The staff of the Department of According to the figures contained in the Education increased from 14,617 in 1964-65 Minister's report, in 1965, 24 per cent. of to 16,654 in the current year. That is an teachers were in Class I. Over a period of increase of 2,037, or the percentage rise years there has been a decrease in the num­ that I have already indicated. One could ber of experienced senior teachers proceed­ have no quarrel with that as long as one ing to Class I. I think it is a matter of could be certain that the greater part of concern that so many teachers remain on the the increase was in fact in teaching staff. Class II.1 classification because they have I believe that to be so. not gained what the department recognises I make those comments as a broad as proper professional and academic quali­ approach to subsequent Estimate debates. fications. Of 9,714 teachers, 1,128 have For my part, I am critical of the fact that degrees or diplomas. That represents just all departmental Estimates are not debated 11 per cent. of teachers, which is far too each year and I shall be watching critically low. Whilst I was not able to get the per­ the growth of the Public Service from year centage of teachers with degrees and to year. diplomas, 19 per cent. of teachers through­ out Australia have degrees. The E&timates that the Committee is now debating are undoubtedly the most important (Time expired.) and most vital of any of the departmental Estimates that will be considered during this Mr. W. D. HEWITT (Chatsworth) (7.36 session, because there are few issues these p.m.): I preface my remarks tonight on the days closer to the heart of the community at Estimates of the Department of Education large, few issues arousing more attention and by expressing a degree of disappointment at interest, than education. We live in a learning that the Estimates of each depart­ sophisticated society; we live in a society that ment are debated and scrutinised in this demands higher standards than ever before. Chamber only every second year. As Parlia­ ment is the custodian of, and the body I refer the Committee to a comment by entrusted with the spending of, public money, Professor Butts in his work "Assumptions a review each two years is, in my opinion, Underlying Australian Education". Although not frequent enough. I believe that by hon. members may find themselves in agree­ grouping like Estimates it would be possible ment with the professor only to a degree, I to consider them annually. The Federal think it is a useful comment to relate to the Parliament, whose responsibilities are, of Committee. course, much more onerous, and with much Mr. P. Wood: He says there is no sense of wider ramifications, succeeds in debating adventure in Australian education. each of the Estimates each year. I feel that it would be possible to arrive at that situa­ Mr. W. D. HEWITI: That is the comment tion in this Parliament by the grouping of to which I am about to refer. He said- like Estimates. If necessary, sittings could "Australia needs a great educational be extended, and that would not be a bad revival and awakening of interest in educa­ thing; in fact, I am sure it would be to the tion. Somehow the fires of educational good. I make a plea to those entrusted with enthusiasm and aspiration for a better the proceedings of the House to look care­ education must be kindled. I miss a wide­ fully into this matter, because I promise spread feeling of ferment and dissatisfac­ them that this will be, for me, an annual tion or criticism. I do not see a bubbling grouch. up of ideas and experiments. I do not Having said that, I should like to say that sense that strong professional organisations I believe it is useful from time to time to are constantly at work promoting discussion consider the strength of the Public Service. and exchange of ideas, criticising practices It is interesting to note that the staff of the and theories and stimulating new pro­ Department of Education has, quite rightly, cedures and new probing." shown an appreciable increase in the last That, of course, is an over-all observation. few years. Similarly, there has been an It does not attach itself to the Queensland increase in the strength of the Public Service situation alone, nor should it be implied that as a whole. I have never been one wedded it does. But I think the professor's comments 1214 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

are worthy of some consideration. I do the different circumstances in which we live, not agree entirely with what he says, because and I think the sooner we recognise the fact I believe that greater thought is being given that shorter hours, more leisure and longer to education these days. However, it is a leave all create social problems that sooner reasonable proposition to put to the Govern­ or later we have to wrestle with, the better. ment that, no matter how outstanding its I should establish the point, in case my com­ record may be and no matter how proud ments are misconstrued and misrepresented, it may be of that record, it rests on its oars that I do not argue against this trend. I at its peri.J. stand four-square behind the fact that the We have an impatient community that workers will, and must, enjoy shorter working demands increased facilities in the field of hours, longer leave and improved conditions. education and insists on getting those I do not argue with that proposition at all, facilities. It is useful to ponder the reasons but the proposition that I establish is that why there is today a greater demand for if there is not an improvement in the higher standards of education than ever standard of education in society, then we before. The demand could, of course, be come to suffer from these social problems. attributed to the improved society in which Therefore, I put the proposition to the Com­ it is our privilege to live, and no-one, not mittee that there must be a higher standard even my good friends opposite, would of education, not only in terms of pnrsuit of contest that proposition. There is greater professional ambition but also so that we affluence in society and, as a consequence, have the cultural and intellectual background people have not only the right but also the to use our increased leisure properly, wisely, ability to pay for higher standards of educa­ and well. tion and, therefore, better job oppol'tunities. Having said that, one should refer to the Whereas not many years ago a person who financial document that we are considering a!>pired to a professional career might have and look at some of the greater variations been considered the exception, people who in the figures that have been presented to aspire to, and indeed earn, professions today us. The over-all increase in the budgeted are very much the rule, and that is a good amount for educational expenditure this year thing. runs to the sum of $9,241,356, or an increase Also, the demand for a higher standard of of 12 · 97 per cent., and the substantial varia­ education is brought about by the realisation tions in the money Vote come in such items that in the world of tomorrow there will as textbook allowances, which this year runs be few places indeed for the person who to a figure of $528,336, the university, from does not have some standard of education. a figure in excess of $8,000,000 to one in The point cannot be emphasised too much­ excess of $9,000,000, showing an increase of I think it should be emphasised and re­ $1,250,000, interest grant to non-departmental emphasised-that we are fast approaching schools, running from nil to $73,000, tech­ the stage in our society at which the un­ nical education, running from $2,500,000 to skilled and the uneducated will be not only a figure in excess of $3,000,000, and the unemployed but also unemployable. There is Institute of Technology, showing an increase a firm recognition of this fact by society; over all of $764,892. there is a firm recognition of it also by The latter two Items I have mentioned, Governments. namely, technical education and the Institute A point that possibly has not been recog­ of Technology, are deserving of some com­ nised as much as it should be is that there ment. There has been a significant change !s need for people to be educated not only of emphasis in recent times. I do not think m terms of employment and professional I am doing the Minister or the Government pursuits but also in terms of enjoying their any injustice when I say that in the early leisure. This may sound a slanted angle, and years of this Government heavier emphasis I want to develop it a little. The Leader was placed upon the furtherance of of the Opposition, in a different way, touched secondary-school education. This had to be. upon the same problem this afternoon. He As a consequence of the population explosion attempted to tie in the incidence of crime and in the immediate post-war years, we were vandalism with deficiencies in the State faced with many extra thousands of students education system. If he could have shown who had to have provision made for them that the incidence of crime and vandalism in secondary education. Knowing that first is unique to this State, he may well have things have to come first and recognising established his case. But the fact is that always the financial problems that beset a the problem that he touched upon is, of State, the Government tackled this section of course, a problem in all parts of the civilised its problems, and I believe it tackled them world today. with remarkable and telling effect. Mr. Porter: It is greater in other States. But having to some degree met that prob­ lem, it is now shifting its emphasis back to Mr. W. D. HEWIIT: As my friend from this particular field of technical education Toowong points out, it is greater in other and the Institute of Technology. Again, this States, and it is attributable not to the defici­ is, in fact recognising a deficiency in our ences in the education system in total department that was touched upon by the although one could say attributable to it Martin Report. Of course, the Government possibly in part. But it is attributable to has been aware of this criticism; the increased Supply (27 OCTOBER) Supply 1215

Vote to which I have referred indicates that to be regretted, this part of the wastage is this section of the Martin Report has been one that we will never arrest and, looking noted. One should read this out, because it realistically, possibly we do not want to it ties in with this increase in the money arrest it. voted for the Institute of Technology. The university "work-out" that was held The Martin Report tells us- earlier this year and received publicity "Technical education in Queensland registered certain criticisms of the depart­ has lagged behind that of some other ment. I have looked at these criticisms and States and, as pointed out in Chapter 5, tried to understand some of them. As some diplomas in engineering are available of them deserve some comment, I wish to only on a part-time basis." refer them to the Minister tonight, not in any carping fashion but, I should hope, in In another paragraph it is pointed out- the general tone of this debate, in construc­ "The Committee understands that the tive form. Queensland Government intends to estab­ lish an Institute of Technology in the The particular criticisms that I refer to Central Technical College and to provide are- full-time diploma courses in different 1. There is no general, overall plan for branches of engineering." education in Australia. The following paragraphs says- 2. The transfer system is felt to be "The Committee welcomes this evid­ mis-used. ence of the realization of the need for 3. In the present inspectoral system, more full-time diploma work in Queens­ the inspector is supposed to perform two land, and suggests that the foundation of functions- a Queensland Institute of Colleges might (a) to help a teacher with advice on be of assistance in planning this specific problems and provide for the new pattern of tertiary technological edu­ exchange of ideas, and cation. The Central Technical College (b) to "rate" the teacher-to uphold could well be one of the most important standards in the education system. constituents of the proposed Queensland Many teachers do not feel free to con­ Institute of Colleges." fide in the inspector; consequently it It is useful to ponder for a while upon this is felt that the function of the inspec­ particular money Vote and acknowledge the torial system is merely to uphold the fact that this matter, referred to in the authority of the department. Martin Report, has received its due share 4. Teaching regulations and Public of attention. Service regulations deprive teachers of Mr. Mann: You are admitting that we any type of free discussion about, or need more money than is provided? comment on, any part of the education system. Mr. W. D. HEWIIT: Of course we need more money. We recognise that fact. Cer­ I think these are useful points, and I hope tainly in our lifetime people will never be the Minister will deal with them in his completely satisfied with the amount of reply. money being spent on education. We have The hon. member for Toowong and the a long way to go. The important thing is hon. member for Toowoomba East, when that the money is being properly and wisely referring to departmental employees, both spent, and that there is an expanding pro­ used the term "in-breeding". This is a gramme. There can be no doubt about the criticism that one meets whenever one dis­ expanding programme. cusses educational problems. Whenever It is useful to refer to the wastage in one discusses education with students and teachers that the hon. member for Too­ teachers one finds this continual reference to woomba East mentioned. It is hardly what they describe as "in-breeding". necessary to say that a good deal of money I think it is useful to declare oneself on would be saved if this wastage could be this. I do not believe in the principle, arrested. Part of the wastage is repre­ "seniority at any price". I believe that there sented by those in the category "Leaving should be a reward for seniority. If a the District or State" for which a total of person has served for many years, I suppose 135 females is shown. It is obvious that that, to a degree, his service must be these females would include those young recognised. However, if a person working girls who, these days, regard it as their right alongside him has worked for a shorter time to take a look at the world before they but, by study, application, and more initiative marry. is a better-qualified person, in my book there Mr. Pizzey: They could never afford to do is no doubt that he should receive promotion that in years gone by. when promotion is in the wind. Mr. Pizzey: That is the principle adopted Mr. W. D. HEWIIT: That is true. That by the department. is a type of wastage that probably will never be arrested. It is one wastage that Mr. W. D. HEWITT: I thank the Minister will accelerate. Although the wastage is for his assurance. 1216 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Returning again to the matter of be a sorry day when the Minister for in-breeding, there is a great need for the Education slips into his shoes, for he has infusion of overseas experience and talent. clearly indicated that he is uninterested in Police Force administration. He has I now wish to pay a tribute to those people obviously manifested that attitude from tiii?-e who serve on parents and citizens' to time. He has posed as an expert m associations. The Minister referred to them the education field and in the last 12 months in his speech. I believe it is a fair comment or so he has crashed badly in that field. to say that they are unselfish and dedicated He has created extreme dissatisfact~on i.n to the schools that they support and serve most fields of the educational world m this so well. One can only hope that their State from university level down to primary numbers will be greatly increased; it is That lack of interest was made rather pitiful to see the all-too-few in number scho~l. attending the meetings. manifest today when he devoted. ~ pa.ltry five minutes to Police Force admimstratwn, A problem has been referred to me when in fact it is in the same parlous position concerning the publishing of results of public as the Department of Education. examinations. I am informed that when results are published in the daily Press in I say that with some degree of conviction, other States the students' names are not because as far back as 17 May thi~ yea~ I published, but a number representing the wrote a letter to the Minister warmng him name is printed. This number is known to of the troubles that were lying ahead. He the student and the Department of Education, either just ignored the letter or found the but not to the world at large. I am told answers to my submissions too d~~cult . to that this saves students and parents much answer, or alternatively, the admmistratiOn embarrassment and heart-burning. I ask the of his office is so poor that perhaps the Minister to investigate this matter and give letter has not yet arrived. However, I shaH it his serious attention. put it on record. I now return to the hallowed 3t square Before doing that, I must s~y. that in miles comprising the electorate of Chatsworth. matters of this nature the Mimster for We look forward to an early solution to the Works and Housing does reply promptly and acquisition of 12 acres of land for the Camp courteously, and normally satisfies. me ll;nd Hill High School, and hope that in the not­ many others that he is not w.Ithholdmg too-distant future we may see a sporting information, but on the con~rary IS .endeav­ ground on that acreage. ouring to carry out the. dutles . of h1s office with fairness and integnty. I smcerely h<;>pe I wish the Minister well in his aspirations that if there is to be a vacancy for Premier­ to create an ever-expanding educational ship, that Minister. will wi~ the bat~le for facility in this State. I congratulate him leadership as I beheve he IS fast domg. on what has already been achieved, and the Government on a job that, to this point The letter I refer to is dated 17 M~y, of time, has been well done. 1966, and after five months remams unanswered. It reads- Mr. BENNETT (South Brisbane) (7.58 "The Hon. the Minister for Education, p.m.): It is perhaps unique that we, as Brisbane. parliamentarians, are forced to discuss in a short 25 minutes three very important Dear Sir, aspects of this State's development that really "I should be pleased if you would should be ailocated to separate portfolios. kindly reply to the fol.lowing guestions as But, because of an accident of the times, I desire to have the mformatwn for my in that the police administration has been record purposes: duck-shoved from one Minister to another, (1) Why is Queensland's expenditure and eventually landed back in the lap of on education both per head of popula­ the Minister for Education, we are forced to tion and per student consistentlY_ 20'!o discuss these important matters in 25 minutes. below the Australian average which, m In proper circumstances, if Ministers with turn, is one of the lowest of the capacity handled these portfolios, we would developed countries? have two separate periods of 25 minutes to discuss them. (2) Why are Queensland teachers the lowest paid in Australia? Mr. Hughes: You have had two hours in the Address-in-Reply debate and the Budget (3) Why are Queensland teachers so debate. poorly trained? (The Martin Report recommends that within the next few Mr. BENNETT: For the information of years the length of the minimum courses the hon. member, I spoke for my full hour of preparation for teachers should be then, and that was inadequate. increased to three years). The point I wish to make is that during (4) Why are there no plans to imple­ the conduct of the debate today I heard ment the Martin Report in Queensland? one hon. member on the Government side (5) Whilst 50% of Victorian teachers say, no doubt with some degree of knowledge, are graduates and 33% are graduat~s that this is the last time that the Estimates in New South Wales, can you explam of this State will be presided over by the why the Queensland percentage has present Premier. I can only say that it will fallen to 25%? Supply [27 OcTOBERl Supply 1217

( 6) Why is there no real benefit for In spite of the Minister's bragging when our secondary-school teachers to have introducing his Estimates today, it is per­ a University Degree? fectly obvious that there are many aspects (7) Why must school teachers pay of his administration with which he is unable their own University fees? to cope. He did not even do me the courtesy of replying to my letters. (8) Why must they study for the University Degree in their own time? Mr. Pizzey: Why aren't you the Deputy (9) Why is the work load on teachers Leader of the Opposition? so high, whereby certain teachers are required to give 40 lessons per week Mr. BENNEIT: One does not nee'

The reason for the difficulty experienced times is supported by the Minister. Right in obtaining recruits for the Police Depart­ or wrong, the Minister backs him up and ment is manifestly clear. Labour has been looks after him. lambasted so much for what it did during its term of office that I say quite proudly Mr. Ramsden: Wise or unwise. that the Australian Labour Party can explain Mr. BENNETT: I could add that, too­ with satisfaction to a fair audience and a wise or unwise. decent-minded jury that the efforts of Labour Governments over the years were outstanding Mr. Ramsden: It is your usual expression. for the times in which they were carried out. Never at any time did a Labour Government Mr. BENNETT: Detective Buchanan, who have to lower the level of physical fitness and is skilled in winning the confidence of sus­ physical capacity, as the present Government pects, and is even more skilled in winning has done, to get recruits for the Police Force. the confidence of the Commissioner of Police, The Country-Liberal Government is prepared had a few drinks with the Com­ to take virtually anybody, regardless of his missiOner at Bundamba Racecourse and physical standard, provided it can get him arranged for himself to be re-transferred to into a uniform. the C. I. Branch, as a good boy who would behave himself. The Commissioner neve,r Mr. Hughes: Are they all poor physical explained officially the reason, but it was specimens? obvious to all the police who saw the two of them hob-nobbing at the Bundamba Race­ Mr. BENNETT: Even though the required course and drinking beer together that that physical standard is at its lowest level, the was where the re-transfer was arranged. It hon. member for Kurilpa would still be is because of treatment like this that I say rejected. if a policeman can get the ear of the Commissioner he can get a satisfactory and The difficulty in recruiting men arises from suitable transfer. In fact, he can get rapid the dissatisfaction that exists within the promotion, as did Inspector McNicol, whose Police Force. Many transfers made during rapid promotion surprised everybody, but the last 12 months have been unexplained. whose friendship with and knowledge of the When I have questioned the Minister about Commissioner was undoubted. them, he has either been evasive or, I was dealing with the reason for failure alternatively, has said that they were part of in recruiting in spite of the lowering of departmental routine. Not one policeman, standards. Another reason is that there is a whether he is for or against the administra­ differentiation in treatment of policemen who tion, accepts that answer as true. All the get into difficulties. There are those who, sudden transfers of men with years of in the course of duty, get into trouble, and experience have been made for a depart­ I could name two, who of course are only mental reason that is perfectly clear to the examples. One was Constable Edward Commissioner, who is making them, but is George Dundas, who got into some trifling perplexing and worrying to the men who are difficulty departmentally and it cost him $854 carrying out their duties. to try to clear his good name. The trifling complaint with which the Commissioner I have had occasion-! think it was since charged him was one that could have well the last meeting of Parliament-to ask why been dealt with by the Commissioner person­ a prominent detective from the C. I. Branch, ally by way of a caution. Detective Buchanan (commonly known as "Buck" Buchanan), was transferred to This young constable-and he is very Ipswich, and it is perfectly clear that the young-was on traffic duty directing traffic Minister's answer did not give the real reason. on one occasion when a little boy came up Detective Buchanan had had a row with the with a purse containing a £5 note and some Commissioner of Police. The Commissioner other money. The constable, at the depot became peeved and irritated and angry with from which he operated, made a correct Detective Buchanan, who was described by report, noted it in his notebook, and made the Commissioner's representative in one five copies of his report on the handing over appeal as a top-line detective and the top of the purse. There was no strong-room or homicide detective in the Queensland Police other proper place for the keeping of articles Force. He was sent to Ipswich, where his of that nature such as a safe, so he placed abilities as a detective were wasted. At a the purse in a drawer and waited for the time when violence was rife, when a record owner to claim it. Subsequently he went on number of murders was being committed, leave and during his absence the £5 note when human life was in danger in Queens­ disappeared from the purse. land, Detective Buchanan was banished to Nobody was charged with stealing the £5. Ipswich, put into uniform, and no doubt spent Whoever was responsible for its disappear­ a lot of his time on traffic duties and other ance is unknown to the Police Force admini­ incidental duties performed by uniformed stration, but Constable Dundas was charged police officers. Of course, he realised the with failure to obey a Commissioner's error of his ways. He was made to mider­ memorandum, the number of which I could stand that a policeman cannot afford to give the Committee, which says in effect that disagree with the Commissioner, who at all when lost property of that nature is handed Supply [27 OCTOBER} Supply 1219

in a notation must be made in the police­ the senior officer would not get hurt. It man's notebook and signed by the person was getting rough and tough. He was handing in the article. The failure in duty by eventually taken on trial in a civil action for this young Constable Dundas was in the fact damages. Eventually the jury returned a that he failed to get the boy's signature in unanimous verdict that he was not guilty his notebook. of malicious assault, wrongful arrest, or any­ Incidentally, the Commissioner's memoran­ thing of that nature. He was completely dum was never shown to him. There was cleared. He cleared his name, but it cost him, no proof that at any time he knew of its if my memory serves me correctly, in the existence. In order to prove knowledge of vicinity of $3,500 to do so. The department any memorandum in anybody's mind, surely has not stuck by him. It says, "Pay it that memorandum should be signed, or the yourself". initials of the person obliged to read it should Is that not one reason why the Police be appended to it. Force is not getting recruits? Obviously if However, Constable Dundas was depart­ this young constable in the future sees a mentally charged, the charge being investi­ brawl he wiii walk around the block to gated over two days. He was convicted avoid again getting himself into difficulty. because the Commissioner, in the most He knows that the Commissioner will not farcical method of dealing with a man one stick by him. As it is, he will be saddled could conceive, levelled the charge. The with a debt that will bankrupt him and his Commissioner does not hear the evidence. family. On the other hand, it is a different On the evidence that is taken he decides story if a man is a pet of the Commissioner. whether the person is guilty or not guilty, I named a man the other night in Morgan's and convicts and fines him. He is a prose­ case. He was an off-duty policeman. What cutor, judge and jury in these matters, and he did was not in the course of his duties. of course, having charged a man he must He should have been looking after his dog get him convicted too. In this case that is at a time when it attacked a man who was what he did. trying to protect a woman from it. The matter was taken on an appeal lasting Mr. Lee: Is that the man who rushed into one day, also to a tribunal which has had a shovel? its teeth pulled in regard to appeals since the last amendment, as I mentioned when the Mr. BENNETT: That was the case where amendment was going through. The only the man collided with the shovel. At that union repre·sentative who can now sit on time that police officer was not carrying appeals is a sergeant who is due to be pro­ out his duty, and he was not justified in the moted to commissioned rank, and his pro­ attack he made, but he was protected by motion to commissioned rank depends on his the Commissioner of Police. It was a civil favouritism with the Commissioner of the matter. The Commissioner of Police took day. out a complaint for him, went to court for him, and paid expensive fees for him. It A Government Member interjected. did not cost him one penny, yet Constable Ready got into this financial difficulty because Mr. BENNETT: To make it quite clear, of litigation following what was held to be will name him. He is Sergeant Johnson, a lawful arrest. Constable Ready is now who at the moment is going flat out to saddled with a debt of $3,500. Admittedly become one of the Commissioner's officers. he was awarded costs against the other side, However, the essential point is that this but the other side might not have the money. poor man made, at the worst, some trivial In the meantime he is not being paid. He mistake in the course of his duty, through, as has to wait for his bill of costs to be taxed, he says, not knowing that the memorandum and in the meantime he could be declared was there. But even if he did, a a bankrupt. That is one of the reasons he little failure cost him $854 and the would be dissatisfied with the Police Force. Police Department was not prepared to help (Time expired.) him. Although he is a young man about to be married, he does not know whether Mr. MULLER (Fassifern) (8.23 p.m.): or not he should get married in the circum­ There are times when it is prudent to be stances. If the Commissioner wishes, under silent, and there are occasions when one the rules of the Police Force administration, feels impelled to express one's views. This knowing that this officer owes debts of that is one occasion when I am compelled to rise magnitude that he cannot immediately meet, to express my feelings of gratitude to the he can dispense with his services. He has Minister and his officers for the very excellent done it before today. job being done by the Department of I could name another police officer who Education. was taken on trial before a jury. What I listened to the last ~wo Opposition Constable Ready did was in the course of speakers with considerable mterest. I did his duty. He was assisting a senior officer not agree with all that the hon. member for who was arresting a man named Brown in Toowoomba East said but, as he was a the Valley. Because it was Constable Ready's teacher, I respect his views. He certainly obligation and responsibility to do so, he has had experience in teaching, which many went to the aid of the senior officer so that of us have not had. Nevertheless, it has not 1220 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply been my experience that there is any ill­ practical suggestion. Instead of dealing with feeling or ill-will between teachers and the {he education Vote he dealt with members Department of Education. From my obser­ of the Police Force. If he wants to get vations, I feel that generally the teachers are square with these officers, let him have the a contented and are a happy body of public coura·ge to go outside the walls of Parliament servants. House and make his statements. The hon. member for South Brisbane pre­ Mr. Bennett: You are not a Minister any faced his remarks by saying that 25 minutes longer. Let the Minister answer. was not sufficient to discuss these Estimates. Following that statement he indulged in Mr. MULLER: It does not matter what destructive criticism, without spending two I am. I still have plain common sense, of the 25 minutes in putting forward some­ and a sense of fair play. If the hon. thing helpful. member for South Brisbane wants to make these charges, let him get out on the road Mr. Bennett: Is that the thanks I get for and make them. I guarantee that he is not defending you when they threw you out of game to do so. I ask him not to use Cabinet for your defalcations? Parliament House for that purpose. Mr. MULLER: That, too, is typical of Mr. BENNETT: I rise to a point of order. the hon. member. I remind him that I will accept that challenge. I will debate­ Parliament House was never intended to be this subject on the platform outside with the a place in which to wash dirty court-linen. 'hon. member, anywhere and at any time. We establish our courts to dispense justice, and if anyone has a grievance he is entitled The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. to take his case to the law courts and be Campbell): Order! There is no point of heard. But it should be finished in the court. order. It was never intended that any disgruntled legal practitioner should use Parliament Mr. Bennett: I accept his challenge. House as a coward's castle to vilify honour­ able members of the Police Force. Mr. MULLER: The hon. member should adopt the role of a man, and not be a Mr. BENNETT: I rise to a point of order gurter-snipe throwing bricks from the other under, I think, Rule 115. The hon. member's side of the fe-nce. ins,inuation is insulting to me. I have never appeared at any time for any of the persons :I have watched the progress of this depart­ mentioned. As a matter of fact, I very ment for a number of years. I think the rarely lose a police appeal. I did not act Premier will remember that when I came here for any of them. The statement is offensive in 1934 the education Vote was approxi­ to me and I ask that it be withdrawn. mately £2,000,000. I am sensible enough to know that £2,000,000 in 1935 was quite a The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. different matter from £2,000,000 today. Campbell): Order! The hon. member for Howe-ver, it is not just a matter of what South Brisbane has said that the remarks are money is spent in this department, or in offensive to him and I ask the hon. member any other department; it is a matter of how for Fassifern to withdraw them. we spend it. Just before the present Minister Mr. MULLER: H they are offensive to the took ove-r-if my memory serves me rightly, hon. member, in keeping with parliamentary in 1956-the Vote for education was about practice I am obHged to observe your ruling, £10,000,000. After we took office I well Mr. Campbell, and I withdraw them. How­ remember the Minister making plans as to ever, I say to the hon. member that if he how he proposed to reform this department. uses the privilege of coming here to vilify I must confess that I never imagined that members of the Police Force-and today he the reformation that we see today could devoted the whole of his time to caustic have been brought about in such a short criticism-without giving them an oppor­ space of time. tunity to reply, I say in plain Australian If there is one department in which there that I do not believe half of what he said. have been spectacular achievements it is the If the hon. member is offended, I will prob­ Department of Education. This department ably offend him a good deal more. In should not be regarded as a political foot­ the bush we call men of his type sour­ ball. I have always given credit to the bellies. Some people call them dingoes. Labour Party and its Ministers for what This is not the first occasion on which he they did for education. It is not an easy has done this. He has come here repeatedly matter, and many things have to be done. with the intention of making a speech on a Nevertheless we must remember that the particular subject and has devoted his time rise in the standard has been spectacular. to another purpose. I hope that there may We have to grapple with many things in be some chance of revising the Standing education. Many of us think that mathe­ Orders to prevent such action. matics, English, and geography are all­ If there is anything wrong in this depart­ important. But I agree with a statement ment, for heaven's sake let the hon. member by Sir Herbert Watkin that our chief objec­ have the guts to get up and tell us what tive should be to try to make good citizens should be done. He did not make one of our children. Supply (27 OCTOBER] Supply 1221

The Leader of the Opposition said that for them, as they have the opportunity to it was somewhat disappointing to see that mingle in their studies and sport with so while we had lifted the educational standard many other children. we still had a number of delinquents. We Another important aspect is safety. We had them before the educational standard are very proud of our improved roads, and was raised, and I suppose we will have them quite rightly so. However, there is a great in the days to come. In deference, I say danger to children walking to school along that some of the present delinquency is due highways used by vehicles travelling at a to the higher standard of education. If we considerable speed. I am very worried about are to grapple with our future problems we children walking along them. I am sure we must have educated minds. If some people were all appalled to hear of the accident in misconduct themselves, how can we blame Ipswich last Sunday in which Mr. and Mrs. the Department of Education? When I Hayden lost a little child who was trying to travel through my electorate, and others, I am run across the road. I am not blaming the impressed by the gentlemanly and lady-like driver of the vehicle or anyone else for what behaviour of our boys and girls, particu­ happened; I merely mention it as something larly at high schools. Never has the stand­ that could happen every day. As I travel ard been so high. A few fall by the way­ the roads I see children running across them side, and there are means of assisting them without looking where they are going, and other than by criticising the Department of when that happens an accident is always Education. Children have opportunities likely. When children are picked up and today that they did not have before. taken to school, the parents' minds are relieved. I can appreciate the position of members of the Opposition today. Their job is to However one looks at it, the way in which find any weakness in the department, and I education services have developed has been give them full marks; that is their job. If dramatic. Today children begin their school­ they can find anything wrong, they should ing at kindergarten. I attended a kinder­ put their fingers on it. I have listened, and garten function only last Saturday. Children I know how difficult it is. But they must are taken in to kindergartens at three years remember what has been done in the last of age and are trained during their very eight or nine years. The Minister said that young life. From there they graduate to when this Government assumed office high primary school, then to high school, and schools in country districts were non­ finally to university. If that is not service, existent, and so they were. In days gone I do not know what is. by, if a parent wanted to send his child to The hon. member for Maryborough sug­ high school he had to send him to a board­ gested a review. I do not know what he ing school. In most cases parents could intends to review. In fairness to the Minis­ not afford to do that. In my electorate-! ter and the Committee, he might have know it applies to every other electorate as pointed to some weaknesses in the system. as well-almost every child now has easy As he was a teacher, he would perhaps be access to primary and high schools. That in a position to make some recommenda­ is a wonderful achievement, even if it does tions that might be helpful. All he said was cost a bit of money. I have three high that it was time to review the whole system. schools in my district, at Beaudesert, He did not say what might be done, and I Boonah, and Brassall, and there is a high­ think it is a compliment to the department school top at Rosewood. The whole of that he could suggest nothing to review. We the State is in a similar position. Children appreciate that he has given this question a never before had such opportunities. good deal of thought. After all, each of us has to respect the opinions of those who The organisation of the transport system have a specific background in any depart­ to primary and secondary schools is so com­ ment, business, profession, or walk of life. plete that every child can use it. In a great many cases, although they have to travel Although teachers today have one or two 20 miles they get home in the afternoon as little grievances, I can only say that as I early as they did when they were educated have moved around I have never in all my in the smaller centres. life seen as many happy, confident and con­ tented teachers as I now see. I think there are even more advantages in the provision of school transport services. Mr. Bennett: You don't look very far, In addition to providing access to high then. schools, it has been made possible to estab­ Mr. MULLER: At least I attempt to look lish district schools where previously there ahead. The hon. member for South Brisbane were three or four small schools. I have a does not; he jumps in without looking at all. few district schools in my electorate, and I know that other members, particularly from The point is that in days gone by there country electorates, also have them in their were teachers who complained. When I first areas. Children from 8, 10, or even more became a member of this Assembly, a num­ schools are taken to one central school, as ber of teachers were complaining about quite naturally we call them, and they attend their salaries. Is it not only human for all a school of 200 or 300 children instead of of us to think that we are underpaid? If 9, 10, or 12. That in itself is an education people think they are underpaid, they have 1222 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

access to the Arbitration Commission, and The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! a number of people do think they are underpaid. Mr. MULLER: I do not think I should resume my seat without mentioning the There are teachers and teachers, and some co-operation of parents and citizens through­ teachers may have a grouch about being out the State in the work of the Department transferred to the Outback. It has been of Education. One has only to attend speech suggested that the department's attitude is, nights to see how happy and contented the "If you don't toe the line, you will get people are. I was unable to attend the speech your marching orders". But one has only night held at Beaudesert recently, but my to watch the teachers in the Department of colleague the hon. member for Logan, Mr. Education to see how quickly some rise in E. G. W. Wood, was there, and he told their profession and how some never do. me that the work of the department is held In instances in which teachers are not in very high regard by the parents and temperamentally suited to teaching, I think citizens in that area. That testifies to the it might be wise to give them a job to wonderful work the department is doing and which they are better suited. I suppose the shows that people are really appreciative of same could be said of people in other the opportunities their children are getting professions. After all, none of us can be and the progress they are making. a Jack of all trades. Although teachers may pass examinations and reach the required Finally, let me say to the Minister and standard, in many cases they lack the ability his officers that I think they are entitled to to impart their knowledge to children. all the credit that may come to them as a result of the wonderful effort they are Mr. Bennett: Are you attacking the making. teachers? Mr. MULLER: No, I am not attacking Mr. MANN (Brisbane) (8.44 p.m.): I do the teachers. I am saying that if a teacher not intend to speak about the Estimates for cannot do his job, he should be given a the Department of Education, because the job to which he is more suited. As the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. hon. member is unable to do his job in member for Toowoomba East have covered Parliament, I think he should be replaced that field very well. I wish to say a few by someone who is able to do it. words about the Police Department. Before the Minister for Education entered Mr. Bennett: They haven't thrown me out Parliament, he was a teacher at the Central yet as you were thrown out. Practising School, which is in my electorate, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. and I was chairman of the school committee. Campbell): Order! I warn the hon. member He taught two of my seven daughters, and for South Brisbane that if he continues to they reported to me that they thought he interject I will deal with him under the was a very good schoolteacher. While I Standing Orders. was chairman of the committee, no complaint was made of his work as a teacher. Mr. Bennett: He is attacking me, Mr. Campbe!I. Mr. Murray: Was that the baccarat school committee? Mr. MULLER: I assure you, Mr. Campbell, that I did not know the hon. member was Mr. MANN: The Central Practising so thin-skinned. If a man throws bricks, School, Leichhardt Street, Spring Hill. It he must expect to have some thrown back seems strange that the modern method of at him. teaching is altogether different from the Mr. Bennett: I am quite prepared to cop method used a few years ago. It ignores the bricks. It was you who told me to be spelling and handwriting. Children at State quiet, Mr. Campbell, not him. schools used to be taught to spell and write, but I have been told about children who have The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! left school at 15 and 16 and whose spelling That remark is a reflection on the Chair. is atrocious and handwriting even worse. I ask the hon. member to withdraw it. This new method has operated in the time Mr. Bennett: It was not intended to be a of this Government. reflection, Mr. Campbell, I assure you. I However, it is not my intention to attack was not complaining about being told to be the department or the Minister, because I quiet. have always found him fairly decent and The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! have always had the highest respect for him as a man. I want to say a few words about Mr. Bennett: I accept your ruling, Mr. the Police Department. I do not want to Campbell; I do not know what you mean attack the Commissioner of Police. I feel by it. that he has done a fairly good job as Com­ Mr. MULLER: In the interests of peace missioner. I look back to the days of Com­ and harmony, I will leave the little boy alone. missioner Carroll and Commissioner Glynn and others and I feel that Bischof, if not bet­ Mr. Bennett: If I am told to be quiet, I ter, is as good as any of those gentlemen. I will be quiet. But if the hon. member for feel that he has established good public Fassifern is going to indulge in personalities, relations for the police. I have never been I am going to say he is an old fool. one to toady to the police. As a matter of Supply (27 OCTOBER] Supply 1223

fact, I have always had some sort of obsession Mr. MANN: I reckon that the liquor laws against them, because I feel that I have run should be altered so that the hotels could be into policemen who have been a bit over­ kept open until midnight. I know that you, zealous, and if there is one thing I hate it Mr. Campbell, will not allow me to elaborate is someone who is over-zealous. on that. As I say, I think Commissioner Bischof has measured up to police commissioners of Mr. Chinchen: Is that your policy on the past and has established good public liquor? relations. As a matter of fact, in recent times public co-operation with the police has been Mr. MANN: That is my idea; I am not outstanding, only because of the attitude of expounding my party's policy. the present Commissioner in calling on the public through the Press to co-operate whole­ Mr. Hughes: What you have been saying heartedly with the police in detecting and does not help us as a tourist city. reporting crime. I have no fault with the Commissioner or members of the Mr. MANN: It certainly does not. In the C. I. Branch; my complaint is with the hotels in the city on week-days very little licensing section. An inspector named business is conducted before mid-day; on McNeil, I feel, should not be there. Saturday no business is done at all before I have read what the Commissioner for 7 p.m. I know this man McNeil. I have been Police has said about the incidence of crime interviewed by him. I feel that he is too during the year, and the various new sections zealous. My quarrel is not with the Commis­ that have been attached to the Criminal sioner of Police. Investigation Branch. He goes on to tell i want the Premier to tell the Government how he has gone to no end of trouble to parties that the liquor laws should be altered. post a detective at every local police station I was glad that the hon. member for Mm­ in the suburbs, as part of a plan to reduce rumba made a statement on the subject Brisbane's growing crime rate. There is no recently when he was opening a motel. doubt that the incidence of crime amongst Hotels in the city area should be allowed to young people in Brisbane has increased. The remain open until midnight. I hope that the Commissioner says also that he is sending Premier will do something as a result of the Inspector Raetz to New South Wales and statement of the hon. member for Murrumba. other States to investigate their police I do not want to digress. I am trying to tie methods so that he can come back here and my remarks up with the attitude of the police establish in the Police Force the most up-to­ towards hotels in my area. In the city the date methods of detecting crime. hotels are getting a raw deal. Their rates But I feel that if Inspector McNeil was have been increased. The Brisbane City transferred from the Licensing Branch to the Council has put metered areas outside their C. I. Branch he would go a long way towards hotels, which restricts parking. I wonder if stopping the criminal element, because if he the Government has considered what was adopted the same attitude in dealing with said by the hon. member for Murrumba. them as he adopts in dealing with the public When I get the opportunity I will have more in my area it would have a big effect. I am to say about the matter to the Minister for not saying that the man is dishonest or that Justice. there is anything wrong in his attitude. I feel he is a very honest and capable man, There is an entirely different attitude on but he is over-zealous. There are 50 hotel­ the South Coast. They have an open go keepers in my area and he and his men, down there. Teenagers and young people can almost every night, rush into various hotels flock into the hotels at any hour of the day. right on 10 o'clock. He embarrasses not You see them down there getting drunk and only the hotel-keeper but also the patrons. causing brawls. This is no laughing matter. Hotel-keepers are allowed to sell liquor up to There is one law for the South Coast and one 10 o'clock at night. Very often when a for the city in the view of the police. person is in a hotel purchasing a jug of beer An Honourable Member: Whose fault is at one minute to 10 p.m. officers of the that? Licensing Branch will say, "Get rid of that beer or else!" It is wrong. I am glad that the Minister for Justice is here because he Mr. MANN: I do not know. I believe it is enforces the liquor laws. If what these the fault of the Licensing Branch. There police officers insist upon was intended the is an open go on the South Coast all day. Government would stop hotels selling liauor Try to get a drink up here one minute after prior to 10 p.m. The hotels are entitled to 10 p.m. and you will find McNeil or one of sell up until 10 p.m. Even if the hotel has his men on top of you. The whole thing is a floor show, immediately at 10 p.m. patrons wrong. I am protesting against this man are told to get rid of their liquor or else. I McNeil, and I could not care less what the have had several complaints from hotel­ Commissioner of Folice thinks about it. I keepers in my area about this. have no brief for any member of the Police Force. I do not want to beef about anybody Mr. Hughes: It would be fair and reason­ or knock anybody, but the man in charge is to extend the liquor laws to allow time for the wrong man in the wrong place. The consumption. Minister should shift him and put in his place 1224 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

a more capable officer who can understand secondary departments in the electorate, at the requirements of the hotel people and the Dirranbandi, St. George, Surat and Tara, people who want to drink in hotels. If the and two others, Goondiwindi and Mitchell, Minister went into a hotel and bought a jug also serve the Balonne electorate. These of beer at a minute to 10 and was told, "Get thriving secondary schools provide oppor­ it into you or throw it out", what would he tunities for students to fit themselves for do? Would he throw it out? their chosen careers. The picture has Government Members interjected. changed completely from that which existed prior to 1957. Mr. MANN: I am not concerned about Two weeks ago the Minister for Works what the hon. members for Maryborough and Housing accompanied me to the Surat or Sandgate might say. I am stating my case for the people in my electorate. I am speech night. I attended a speech night at not elected by the Police Force, the Com­ Dirranbandi last Monday and on Tuesday missioner, or the Minister; I am elected by attended the St. George speech night. In my electors and I am speaking on their each case the hall was packed to the doors behalf-the 50 hotelkeepers, the people who by parents and, indeed, by many who were patronise their hotels and the workers who present only because of the interest they take go there on Friday night, Saturday night in education and the young people living and other nights for a drink. Tourists should in the district. also be considered and this facility should be provided for them. I could make further Is it any wonder that members of the reference to travellers who visit the city but Opposition are anxious to decry the splendid I know that you, Mr. Campbell, will not record of the present Government? Nothing let me do that because they come under the could underline more effiectively the apathy Minister for Labour and Tourism. I am shown by the Labour Government towards advocating this for the public in my area. the education of our young people when It is wrong that hotels should have to close it had the opportunity to do something for at a minute after 10. The law should be them, particularly those who live in the altered to give some elasticity. I suggest to the Minister for Education, as he is in country areas. charge of the Police Department, and to the The parents of those children know full Premier, who is in the Chamber, that con­ well the splendid opportunities available sideration should be given to amending the law. today to give them the chance of a higher education. Labour's disregard for this Mr. BEARDMORE (Balonne) (8.57 p.m.): facility over the 40 years it was in power As hon. members on this side have dealt is to its eternal shame. The change-over with various aspects of the Minister's Esti­ from Labour's handling of education involved mates in a very favourable way, and as the this Government in the building and equip­ electorate of Balonne and the young people ping of suitable classrooms and other facili­ who live there are very important to me, I ties, and the provision of a teaching staff propose to be more or less parochial. presented major problems. The position is now perhaps only beginning to sort itself I preface my remarks by paying tribute out. to the Minister for the wonderful job he has accomplished for the young people of As an instance, St. George State School Queensland, particularly those in country in August, 1957, had a teaching staff of districts where before 1957 education seven; today there is a staff of 18, excluding appeared to hold no interest for Labour the head teacher. I have no doubt that is Governments and where very few facilities the picture in many other country centres. were available for secondary education. If In addition, eight new schools have been other electorates have benefited to the same established in remote areas of the Balonne extent as Balonne since this Government electorate, at Moonie, Kindon, Westmar, came to office-and I have no doubt they Lundavra, Teelba, Dunkeld, Weengallon and have-the story is a very happy one. It is Beardmore, and just recently a new school such a happy story in Balonne that it can was granted for Yuleba Creek. be told over and over again. Prior to 1957 This of course is only part of the success only a few fortunate country children had any hope of continuing beyond primary story. Playing fields and equipment, school school because, as the Minister said previ­ libraries, lunch rooms, water supply schemes, ously, many parents could not afford to send and improvement and beautification of their children to boarding school. Much grounds have been provided. We established talent was lost, as girls took any job that school bus services of which I shall give was offering, and boys drifted into shearing particulars later. sheds or other pastoral callings, or menial and other dead-end jobs. Here are some interesting figures for the record. The total expenditure on school In 1957 when I became the member for buildings and grounds in the Balonne elec­ Balonne there was not one secondary depart­ torate from 1 July, 1957, to 20 January, ment in the electorate. Today there are four 1966, was $680,054. Some of the major Supply [27 OCTOBER] Supply 1225 projects included in that expenditure were In the implementation of its policy to the undermentioned- bring secondary-education facilities within $ the reach of as many students as practicable, Bollon State School 13,420 the Government instituted the secondary­ Bungunya State School 22,524 school transport services to which I have Dirranbandi State School 138,870 already referred, and established new sec­ Glenmorgan State School 22,908 ondary departments in the Balonne elector­ Meandarra State School 23,262 ate at Dirranbandi, St. George, Surat, and St. George State School 131,972 Tara. Surat State School 100,168 So that satisfactory accommodation will Tara State School 147,016 be available for teachers at a reasonable Thallon State School 26,686 rental, the following accommodation has The total expenditure incurred by the Depart­ been provided by the Government- ment of Works on other Government build­ Tara-Two twin-unit dwellings and one ings in the Balonne electorate from 1 July, house for a married teacher; 1957, to 20 January, 1966, was $481,802. Dirranbandi-One twin-unit dwelling This money was expended on police stations, and one house for a married teacher; court-houses, hospitals, maternal and child St. George-One twin-unit dwelling; welfare centres, C.P .S. residences, etc. Thallon-One house for single teachers. Free school road-transport services at In July, 1963, approval was given for the present operating in the Balonne electorate payment to a local authority of an educa­ are costing the Government $71,800 a year to convey a daily total of 610 secondary­ tion subsidy to a maximum of £5,000 in any school and primary-school pupils. The one case on the basis of 25 per cent. of the undermentioned school road-transport ser­ cost of construction of a swimming pool in vices have been instituted since 1 August, a town with a population of under 5,000. 1957- That is a wonderful thing for country towns. This subsidy is in addition to the Y amburgan and Donga normal Treasury subsidy. Under this Noondoo South Glen scheme an amount of $10,000 subsidy was Myall Park Humbug Road paid on the cost of construction of the pool G !enearn Road Marmadua Forest at St. George. Grasstrees Corner Kogan Road West St. George Blenheim Is it any wonder that the Honourable Minimi Station Nindi Gully Jack Pizzey will go down in history as the Burgorah Weengallon greatest Minister for Education that the Whyenbah Station Westmar South Parliament of Queensland has ever known? East Surat Westmar East South Surat Mr. O'DONNELL (Barcoo) (9.9 p.m.): Although many words have been spoken in That is a total of 20 transport services. this debate, many of them have been virtu­ May I say here that in 1957 there were ally useless. In most instances members on no transport services available in Balonne, the Government side of the Chamber have as it was then constituted, and there are supported the Minister and have merely only three left of the four that were serving added the local scene to the over-all picture the eastern end of what is now the Balonne that he painted. electorate. To those services must be added a bus that conveys secondary-school pupils Nobody can deny that what the Minister from The Gums to Tara. Approximately said is substantially correct. There has been 180 students are conveyed by bus each day a great upsurge in education in this State, to the school at Tara. and he has some claim to political credit (I do not know how much that is worth) for Since 1 August, 1957, a total subsidy of being Minister for Education at the time $5,345 has been paid by the Department of that it has taken place. Education to parents and citizens' associa­ tions or similar bodies in the Balonne elec­ So far as my electorate is concerned, I torate under the conditions of the School can say that I have done pretty well. But if Ground Improvement Subsidy Scheme. we are to give credit to the Minister let Projects undertaken by the various school us also give credit to the people who ~ctu­ committees under this scheme have included ally _planne.d the work over the years and such items as- subm1t~ed Ideas to the Minister and who, Construction of tennis courts, basket­ by their hard work, have made it possible for the department to attain what it has ball courts, and cricket pitches; achieved. Provision of items of playground equip- ment; Mr. Camp,bell: He has been verv receptive Provision of lunch rooms; to sound suggestions, hasn't he? ' Provision of water supply schemes; Mr. O'DONNELL: As I have said before General improvement and beautifica- I believe that there has never been a bette; tion of grounds; administrative team in the department. I do not say there will never be a better Purchase of motor-mowers, etc. administrative team-after all, if there is 1226 Supply [ASSEMBLY) Supply

satisfaction with the present standard, teachers of Townsville of being Communists, education will stagnate, an'd we must have so there is nothing new in what is taking progress__Jbut it cannot be denied that place today. It is not only teachers of today Queensland is being served by an excellent who express their views, although teachers team, from the Director-General down. in the education service are the type of people who have never gone in for militant The men who are administering the depart­ action. When we look at the word "strike" ment today all served as teachers-as relative to teachers it has many side issues assistant teachers, as head teachers---'and that could become quite laughable, and they served not only in the more congenial possibly an extensive strike by teachers would parts of the State but also in what are have more repercussions on the teachers regarded by many people as the less con­ themselves than on the department. Perhaps genial parts. They have brought to their down through the years that idea has been job a dedication and an industry and ability uppermost in their minds, and even if they that have placed them at the head of the were ever disposed to take such action they Department of Education, and I congratulate have never done so. them on what they have achieved. I congratulate also the teachers of today­ Our problem is not the personnel of the the younger teachers. They have the Department of Education, it is the Govern­ advantage of entering the Teachers' Training ment. We criticise them here-i1 is directed College a:t Senior level and having two personally at the Minister because he is the years at the college, so that they have a agent for the Government's policy-because higher level of education than formerly and we feel, as an Opposition, that if we do not a more mature approach when they actually make some protest about education as it is begin teaching. They are going out and today we are certainly not doing the right tackling the difficult tasks in high schools thing as an Opposition. Reverse our positions; in oountry areas and are aohie'Ving remark­ put us over there with the same performance ably good results. over the last nine years, and put the Govern­ ment over here, and I am prepared to say All this boils down to the fact that, in the that every word of criticism that has come main, people who have elected to join the from this side of the Chamber today and Department of Education have given excel­ tonight would be repeated by those on the lent service. I do not think that can be other side. It is a good thing in many ways, denied. Although there may be armchair because the important point is that we must educationalists in the Chamber who believe have a deep and abiding interest in education. that they can tell all and sundry what should be done in the field of education, it is the The hon. member for Clayfield is often administrative officers of the department­ laughed at because he over-uses the word the men in the inspectorate, the people who "exciting". We are inclined to forget that are serving in the schools---'who actually education is exciting. I do not like to use know the full score. From the young people the word that he has worn out in this who are serving today will emerge the team Chamber, but it is exciting, and until we of the future, just as in my day there can transmit that thought to the people out­ emerged the team of Mr. Murphy, Mr. Black, side we will not awaken keen public interest Mr. Guymer, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Wood, and in education, or incline them to accept others. It is important that we should realise increased taxation so that we may have that. Those men are working hard and better schools, more teachers and more equip­ endeavouring to obtain the best possible ment, all of which we are crying out for results for Queensland. today. I feel that that is the key to the situation. As I have said before, I do not think that in 1957 the late Sir Herbert Watkin, who People are interested in their children until gave wonderful service to the State, took his they obtain the best out of the education feet off his desk and began working just system; they then put them into positions and, because Mr. Pizzey became Minis,ter for so they hope, everything is right for life. Education. It would be an indictment of After that, their interest in education drops those people to say that only in the las,t and any suggestion from, say, a parents and nine or so years has the Department of citizens' association, that they should give Education given service. One could go support to education is met with the answer, as far back as one likes and find that the "We have done our bit. It is finished so far prevailing conditions at the time dictated as we are concerned". If the people are the work the department could do. genuinely concerned about progress they will be always interested in education. I think it Mr. Hanlon: In the previous nine years is a most important part of Government they were bringing smoothly through the activity to impress this aspect upon the primary stages the large increase in students general public in order to obtain the now reflected in secondary schools. maximum support. Mr. O'DONNELL: That is true, but every I feel, as others have said during this difficulty was faced up to. Some people talk debate, ,that the commercialisation of today about teachers going on strike and pass education-if it can be put that way-is the critical comments about them. Back in the force that impels people to seek higher 1940's Sir Arthur Fadden accused the education. This applies particularly to Supply [27 OCTOBER] Supply 1227

parents who seek higher education for their I did not detect any shadow of uiff·~rence children. This is not good enough. We at any time. I have seen quite a few dictate to our children what school they changes, some of them beneficial, some not will go to and, in some cases, what courses so beneficial. The whole idea permeating they will take. We are completely wrapped education today concerns differences in up in the all-important que•stion of what individuals. It can be implemented only by is going to happen to our children in the reducing class-numbers, particularly for those future. We are concerned about whether who have no great academic ability. they will obtain goad jobs, and that sort of thing. To talk about education for We know that in most instances there is leisure is sheer hypocrisy for most people. a great body of average pupils and then The education for leisure that they talk about there is perhaps the most important section is the leisure that is available when they containing those who are below average. are at the top of the tree, when they can They can only be coped with successfully by enjoy themselves and spread their wings. the application of individual teaching methods. I want this recorded and kept firmly in hon. We must get down to the basic facts of members' minds. education. Today education has become as essential as is the driver's licence to It is true that we have a teacher shortage, the motorist. It is very good to see new and we shall probably have shortages from methods being used in the schools. New time to time in the future. We have had methods, such as the Cuisenaire system, shortages in the past, but we have also had make education more interesting and more an excess of teachers, too. The Minister, who exciting for the pupils. However, the same is not in the Chamber at present, will recall problem remains for the teachers: the that in 1929, 1930, 1931 and 1932 teachers-in­ individual differences in theiT students; some training were drafted or transferred to the are smart, some are average, an'd some are Public Service. They are now in their fifties; below average. Despite new systems, that there has been a loss of some top-class teachers fact has to be faced up to. as some of those men have risen to high positions in the Public Service. As new methods are introduced they will stimulate the students and make them more We have more to think about than our interested in their schooling, but there will home State if we are to be pioneers in still be the different types of students. Some­ advancing the cause of the under-privileged times we are satisfied because we see good in Asiatic countries and if we are to further results coming from some children. More such schemes as the Colombo Plan. We in than 20 years ago I studied a book "Learning Australia have a bounden duty to train per­ and Teaching" by Hughes and Hughes that we sonnel for overseas service to help these used in those days as part of our Education people. This problem, in itself, concerns course. Many of the so-called advanced ideas Queensland as a State, and Australia as a of today were included in that book. Also, nation. we can go back to other books written before Mr. Murray: Fortunately we are training that time which indicate that many of the many of their people, but you suggest that ideas being put before us now are not new at all. is not enough? Some of the suggestions that are laughed Mr. O'DONNELL: That is right; it is at today may be common education practice not enough. in 40 years time. The people entrusted with the responsibility of education in this To further our relationship with these State are always on the watch for new people we have to enter many fields where ideas and methods. We know from past per­ development is urgent, notably those of formance that they have given faithful ser­ teaching, engineering and food production, vice. We have no fears for the present in order to give them the assistance they because we know we have a good team. need. They also face the responsibility of selecting A wrong construction may perhaps and training the members of the future administration. be placed on the idea that the Department of Education has not undertaken public I do not know how we are going to get relations. I refer to the days of A.L.P. around the difficulty of bringing in many of Government. No-one can deny that with the ideas propose•d in this debate. If the decentralisation in this State, by which State education system is so strait-laced, let regional offices wt>re established not only me pose a question to those educated outside along the coast but also in the western areas, the State system in this or any other State. much was done to promote good public rela­ Were they educated in a way that was any tions between the Department of Education different from that which teachers were using and parents and citizens. Not only are the in Queensland then? Is there a different people in the countryside familiar with their modus opeTandi in the schools that are not local head teacher and his staff; they are just "strait-laced" and have no restrictions? I as familiar with the regional director and do not think so. I spent exactly 12 months the district inspector. That is important. It of my life as a pupil in a State school, and was brought about, not by this Government, I taught for 30 years in a State School, but but by the Australian Labour Party. The 1228 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

regional directors and some of the inspectors nothing. Within the last four years three act on a personal basis, and Christian names high schools, with an enrolment of approxi­ are exchanged with local people. mately 500, have been established in the area. Ten years ago it was difficult to obtain 10 The changed attitude under Labour children in the town of Cleveland to have a Government to inspection of schools was an high-school top established. improvement. The Director-General of Education will agree that in the old days Let me now deal with transport to schools. there were some tartars-and real tartars The Department of Education has made pro­ they were. But nowadays very little criti­ vision for children to travel across the bay cism is levelled at the inspectors. Because from Dunwich and the four islands to attend of decentralisation and closer liaison high school. Special boat and bus services brought about by this important innovation, have been provided to cover approximately inspectors are advising teachers today more 17 miles by road and seven or eight by than they ever did before. water. When I say the Minister has done well for the Logan electorate, I really mean Mr. Ramsden: What did the hon. member it. for Toowoomba East mean when he said the teachers felt they were not trusted? To be parochial for a moment, there are several things that I would like done Mr. O'DONNELL: He could be dealing throughout my electorate. The Thornlands with an aspect with which I am not familiar. school needs additional accommodation; This is what has happened in regional areas the Slack's Creek school wants an area of of the State. bitumen for a parade ground; and further I suggest that people do not give credit development is needed in the Woodridge to the political party of the day that brought area. this about. They say that there should be I should like to thank the Minister for his decentralisation. But there is decentralisa­ efforts in having the electorate policed. Any tion, and it is effective decentralisation. requests that I have made have received Teachers today-! am talking about the cen­ immediate attention, and the policing of tral region-meet the regional director at Cleveland and Dunwich under difficulties is least twice a year. He goes out to see them; much appreciated. they do not have to go to his office. He does I well realise that the expansion of pri­ not visit one teacher without saying, "Have mary and secondary education has had to you a problem?", and he treats all problems receive first priority in the allocation of the sympathetically. That policy was laid down limited funds available. This is the result by Labour in office and it is important to of the great increase in the birth-rate in the realise it. I should like to see the word early 1940's, which has resulted in such an "Inspector" disappear and suggest that "Adviser" would be a better title for these effect on education in the last decade or people, who do such valuable work. Only two. However, even as a layman I can see with close association between young teachers that the position with tertiary education in and the older men in the service can there be Queensland has been growing more and development to a higher degree. more acute. There are 14,813 students at centres of tertiary education, and of that There is one matter about which I am number 13,518 are in Brisbane. It speaks gratified. For five years I was the one lone well for Queensland that this represents 16 voice in this Chamber asking for a special per cent. of the total Australian enrolment, allowance for children who, for financial as Queensland's population is less than 16 reasons, could not go to secondary school per cent. of Australia's. because of their remote situation. The Government responded to my call and I have two reasons for raising this aspect accepted it as part of its policy this year. of education. I do it in an effort, firstly, I am proud that I had something to do to reduce as far as possible the time and with it. I took it up with the Department money wasted by the high rate of failure at of Education on a personal basis and I was the university, and, secondly, from a purely told it was impossible to draw the line with parochial angle, to expedite the construction respect to eligibility. I am pleased that the of the university at Mount Gravatt. Those line has been drawn. in the electorate of Logan, particularly the northern end-and, indeed, all districts (Time expired.) south of the Brisbane River-are vitally Mr. E. G. W. WOOD (Logan) (9.34 p.m.): interested in this project. I have carefully studied the Estimates and the As a guide to my first concept, I ask the Annual Report of the Department of Educa­ Committee to look at the number who tion, and I have taken a close interest in the applied for scholarships, the number who debate today. All phases of education have were qualified to receive them, the number been discussed. I propose to deal principally who actually did receive them, and the with tertiary education. But first and fore­ number who carried on regardless of whether most, through you, Mr. Hooper, I say to the or not they received scholarships. These are Minister, on behalf of the people of Logan, the figures: 4,306 applied, 3,525 qualified, "Thank you for what you have done for and only about one-third of those-1,170- education in my electorate". I assure all hon. were offered scholarships. That left 2,455 members that these thanks are not given for who were qualified but rejected. Of the Supply [27 OcTOBER] Supply 1229

1,027 who carried on regardless, 618 studied Mr. Tucker: Would this be the fault of full-time and 409 elected to go to work and the university? continue their studies at night. They realised that, if they were not to become hewers of Mr. E. G. W. WOOD: I will deal with wood and drawers of water in an age in that. which educational qualifications will be the However, the main loss-and this is much keynote, they had to become educated. more serious than money, to my way of thinking-is the waste of youthful years, The Department of Education is spending which is never justified unless the course about 12t per cent. of its total allocation on is fully completed. At this stage of a student's tertiary education. The actual figure, which life a very important factor to be considered I took from the report of the Auditor­ is the difficulty he finds in getting employment. General, is $9,309,822, and I believe it He encounters difficulty in finding a niche includes matching grants of under 50 per into which he can fit. cent. from the Commonwealth. It is easily seen, therefore, that the State is doing a Answering the hon. member for Townsville great deal in the field of tertiary education. North, I should say that over-crowded faculties and insufficient accommodation are Apparently the failure rate in the various the main reasons for the necessity to limit faculties at the univeristy has not been numbers, and many useful lives are blighted reduced. I have studied the report of the merely because our tertiary-education system Department of Education closely, and the has become over-crowded. The Minister said Vice-Chancellor of the university seems to that $4,000,000 will be spent on the Institute be rather silent on the actual figures. He of Technology over the next two years. To refers to failure rates as being "somewhat use his words, this will afford a link between similar to those of last year", and I have the graduate and the technician, and the not been able to get the figures for the courses will be at professional level in their various faculties. I suggest that many hon. own right and recognised as such. members have had the same experience as I have had and know full well that under I should say that this Institute of all headings-transport, book fees, education Technology will have a considerable bearing fees, cost of living, and so on-it costs on tertiary education, but I do not think it $1,200 a year to keep a student at university. is the complete answer. I recently heard If one has some knowledge of the numbers a very interesting address by the Director in the various faculties each year and takes of the Institute of Technology at a speech note of the examination results, it is very night I attended at Beaudesert, in which easy to see the economic waste to the com­ he made similar claims of the equality of munity in tertiary education. Let me deal the diploma with the degree course. From with the Faculty of Engineering, in which a layman's point of view I doubt this. I there were 180 students, one-third of whom have spoken to many graduates and under­ went out in the first year. I make it clear, graduates and they view the diploma some­ Mr. Hooper, that I am speaking from what differently from the degree. memory and using round figures, but that This institute is a vital and urgently means that at least $60,000 was lost to the required link, but let us make very sure that community in that faculty alone. It is easy we recognise it as such, with the function of to imagine, therefore, that the total loss to providing dipiomas for professional qualifi­ the community must run into thousands of cations tending towards practical and dollars; in some years it must be as immediate use, but on a much more narrow high as $1,000,000. course than a degree course. Diplomas are quite different from degrees, which wiU unlock It seems to me that the university the top doors of all the professions and has an opportunity at this stage to stream­ careers. From my discussions with graduates, line many of its procedures and to imple­ I say that diplomas will not carry those who ment measures designed to promote general, wish to go right to the top, so let us be very all-round efficiency. We have frequently careful about whether we are satisfied with heard lengthy debates on university failure this Institute of Technology. We must provide rates. I do not claim that I have any facilities for university careers for those who special qualifications to criticise the university; are fitted for them. I speak purely as a layman. I think the Government's aim should be To a layman there certainly seems to be that every student who can reasonably be something wrong when an education system expected to attain a degree should have the that is supported by the community to the facilities available to attain this goal. The extent of millions of dollars a year persistently Government should not be satisfied with the sustains a high failure rate in spite of the diploma course which, at this stage, because fact that entry standards are continually of the over-crowded state of tertiary educa­ rising. When we stop to recall that the tion is a great help. I congratulate the recurrent annual cost of a full-time university Minister for it. student in Australia is some $1,200, as I have mentioned, the economic burden placed on The Minister said that the construction of the community by a university which features the Mt. Gravatt university has been put back a high failure rate is, as I have said before­ a year or two. In view of the matters I and repeat again-readily discernible. have just put forward, I view this decision 1230 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Questions

with great concern. I hope that undue emphasis is not given to the development of the Institute of Technology at the expense of the development of the university at St. Lucia and the development of the university at Mt. Gravatt. There are some aspects of university development that we might wish to be improved. It is nevertheless true that the dynamic response of the University of Queensland to the challenge of providing new university courses where the need for such courses has been demonstrated gives reason to hope that a similar approach will be forthcoming in meeting the challenge posed by the present situation whereby the university has received less financial assis­ tance than it might have expected. The introduction and development of the speech therapy course at the university is, I feel, an illustration of the type of develop­ ment of which we would wish to see more in our university. In 1962 the diploma in speech therapy course was introduced to train students for positions as speech thera­ pists in hospitals, spastic centres, sub-normal centres, the special education branches of the Education Department, the Commonwealth Rehabilitation Centre and the Repatriation Department. Hon. members know that speech therapy is employed in treating anyone who has a speech defect. It is a modern method of control that is receiving considerable attention in Queensland. The first seven students to complete the course graduated in 1964, and in 1965 nine more students graduated. At the moment, there are 26 in the final year, and next year a Bachelor of Speech Therapy course will be introduced in place of the diploma in speech therapy course. I notice in the Minister's report that there are 18 speech correctionists in the department, but only one speech therapist. The Depart­ ment of Education should be taking advantage of this progressive move by the university. At this stage I should point out that the Queensland University is the only university in Australia offering a course in speech therapy. This, I submit, is evidence of the responsible nature of the university to the needs of the community. I am hopeful that this responsiveness will increase and that rather than instituting a negative policy of extending the quota system and of slowing down development, the university will lead Australia. Mr. Tucker: I hope we can keep these people in Queensland. Mr. E. G. W. WOOD: That is the point. I am told by the people at the university that most of these people are going to New South Wales and South Australia. n< At 9.55 p.m., under Standing Order No. 307 and Sessional Order agreed to by the House on 20 October, progress was reported. The House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.