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Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons Tomasz Skwarnicki Syracuse University

6th International Conference on New Frontiers in , Κολυμβάρι, Ελλάδα, 26 August 2017 Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 2 Workshop program Monday Aug 21: hadron exotics

Wednesday Aug 23: Phenomenology of exotic hadrons

Tuesday Aug 22: Heavy-quarkonium-like exotics (experimental) Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 3 Conveners: Alex Bondar, Budker Institute of Nuclear Physics, Novosibirsk, Russia Roman Mizuk, Lebedev Physical Institute, Moscow, Russia Tomasz Skwarnicki, Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY, USA

This talk

• Use elements of various talks given at the workshop to illustrate status of exotic hadron spectroscopy • Neither a complete review of the nor of all the talks given at the workshop • I apologize to the workshop speakers not mentioned in the summary • All talks were interesting and we often had animated discussions

Indicates the speaker’s name for See this talk for more details material copied from a workshop talk Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 4 “Exotic” multiquark states conceived already at the birth of Model

Murray Gell- Mann George Zweig Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 5 QCD 1 = q ( i D - m q ) q - F F QCD q=u,d,s, 4 c,b,t

1973 Asymptotic Hugh David freedom Politzer Hadron sizes Hadrons = Non-perturbative QCD Confinement SU(3) color V~ r with Lattice QCD works well for lowest- color-anticolor charge excitations of 푞푞 , 푞푞푞 .

Expect hadrons with gluons as Only approximate lattice simulations for V(r) constituents: unstable higher excitations. V~1/r • Hybrids: 푞푞품 , 푞푞푞품 , … LQCD O.Solovjeva’s talk Static qq potential • : 품품 , … We have to rely on data and QCD-motivated in Lattice QCD 0.5 1.0 [fm] phenomenology when trying to understand 푟 more complex hadronic structures. 1/10 1 1/0.4 1/0.2 [1/GeV] Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 6 Mesons from & antiquarks in QCD color octet

i  2 color color color i triplet antitriplet singlet 2 1 1 i 2  3  _ 6 2 2 3 8 3   1  1 1 1 i  6 6 2 2 quark antiquark attractive color force i  q q 2 (qq) meson i e.g. K+ 2 _ Color flux tube s stretched between repulsive color force quark and antiquark quarks will pull apart _in any with attractive u octet configuration potential gluons happen to belong to the color octet Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 7 (Colored) diquarks in QCD color (antisymmetric) sextet color antitriplet (symmetric)

color color 1 triplet triplet 2 1 _  3 2 6 3  3  

quark quark q q 1 repulsive color force quarks will pull apart in any  attractive_ color force sextet configuration (half as strong as in the meson) Color flux tube (qq) diquark stretched between Diquark can go in a place of antiquark in a hadron; the quarks and Not a particle, just a antidiquark in place of quark. extending to other s u building block in color partners QCD See Maiani’s talk Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 8 Diaquarks can make ! color color color singlet triplet antitriplet

_ However, it is not clear if 3 1 1   ... an efficient mechanisms 2 to suppress the fall-apart 1  mode to two mesons 2 3 exists, especially when attractive color force all quarks are light. Color flux tube stretched between ((qq)(qq)) the diquark and _  _ diantiquark _ _ s u u attractive color force attractive color force d (qq) diquark (qq) diantiquark d s _ s s q q Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 9 Conventional and “exotic” hadrons Conventional “Exotic” Strong binding. Weak binding. Large systems. Strong binding. Compact systems. Compact systems. n K _ _ d d s u u d s u _ u s u d d _ p u d p s u u (sq) u K meson u (sqg) (u(ud)) (u(dd)) (u(ud)) (su)) ((q(sq))(qq)) KN molecule pentaquark Hybrid meson d deutron s K u _ _ _ K+ s u u s ((sd)u) _ __ L u s s u (gg) Meson and (sq) (sq) ((sq)(sq)) motivated Quark Model KK molecule tetraquark and Are molecular forces in such QCD predicts attractive forces in Firmly QCD Baryonic systems strong enough to some of such configurations. expected molecules exists! create bound states, or Do they live long enough to produce in QCD pronounced effects? observable states/effects ? Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 10 Tetraquarks vs meson-meson molecules • The same quark content can, in principle, create a meson-meson molecule or a tetraquark • However, spectrum from these two types of bindings are very different

((qq)(qq)) (qq)-(qq) tetraquark meson-meson molecule _ _ _ u u u d _ d s u s See Karliner’s talk on Wed. We don’t know if either one exist (“exotic hadron”) V(r) Typically expect only one state n=1, L=0. … Very rich mass spectrum expected! Fall apart prevented by spatial separation – long-lived states if However, states can below threshold. be undetectable if extremely broad. Mass and JP fairly constrained r from the constituents. Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 11 Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 12 N(1685)

N(1685) confirmed, N(1728)?

i.e. pentaquark

Studies in progress: blinded

Proton target Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 13 Defamed Q(1540)+

(uudd푠ҧ)

pentaquark candidate A2 experiment

blinded

blinded

blinded blinded Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 14 d*(2380) dibaryon candidate

d u d u ? d u Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 15 Double-pole structure of L(1405)

A2 expects to improve over earlier photo-production experiments

n

s d d d _ s d 0 u u K See also Noumi’s talk (J-PARC) Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 16 Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 17 Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 18 Glueball studies in BES III

LQCD

LQCD

See also Y.M.Cho’s talk Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 19 Beginning of XYZ saga

Preference for gy’ over gJ/y points to 3 2 P1 component c ’ ? Large isospin c1 violation in these Phys.Rev.Lett. 91 (2003) 262001 decays, The most cited Belle paper (1369 citations)

due to m(D0)-m(D-)? … Molecule?

very narrow y(2S) Belle GX(3872) <1.2 MeV Huge fall-apart DD* mode from the Molecule? resonance tail DD above the 퐷0퐷∗0 threshold X(3872) Molecule? JPC=1++

Molecule? Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 20 Prompt production of X(3872) Wednesday talks/discussion:

Can’t be a molecule! It is a tightly bound-tetraquark.

Agree, can’t be a pure molecule! It is a mixture of a molecule and 3 2 P1 charmomium. and many others including:

Talk by

Constituent QM supplemented with couplings to meson-meson states Pablo Ortega

See also Xiao’s talk MeV % % % % % Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 21 Can a large molecule mix with a compact charmonium?

014019

Wednesday discussion session: It is not plausible for such For such a long-lived state a large molecular state to as X(3872), even small mix with such a compact overlap of wave functions charmonium state can lead to mixing Alex Bondar Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 22 Hadronic decay of a 풒풒ഥ resonance Thinking about a state oscillating back-and-fourth between (푐푐ҧ) and 푐푢ത − (푐ҧ푢) is not necessarily the right picture. A different possibility:

푝푝 → ⋯ + 휒′푐1

0 ∗0 then 휒′푐1 → 퐷 퐷ഥ

Adopted from Michael Pennington’s slides at Modern Exotic Hadrons INT 15-60W workshop November 2015 Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 23 Resonance decay Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 24 Resonance decay Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 25 Resonance decay Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 26 Resonance decay Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 27 Resonance decay Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 28 Resonance decay Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 29 Resonance decay

Decaying 푞푞ത meson resonance can go through tetraquark and/or molecular configurations.

This can sometimes lead to

Dynamically generated state; an extra pole in the scattering matrix Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 30 K- Discovery of Z(4430)+ T. Skwarnicki (Tue.) + + Zc → y’휋 First charged charmonium-like + * Zc K Belle 2008 state discovered! By’p+K PRL 100, 142001 (2008) charged neutral y’ K*0→ K− 휋 + 1D M(y’p) mass fit not “K* veto region”: suppress K*(892) and K*2(1430) d K*(892) K*2(1430)

Exotic Standard Z(4430)+ tetraquark, charmonium molecule, K*Kp+ … bkg. Z(4430)+

non-B bkg

M(Z) 4433 4  2 MeV ++18 30 G()Z 4513 13 MeV significance 6.5 [y’ ≡ y(2S) ] Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 31 + LHCb confirmed Zc(4430) in 2014 1 Breit-Wigner 4D fits to and decay angles of M22 m  i M G amplitude six K*0 K− + and 1-2 Z + y’ + ZZZyp' + Z(4430)- LHCb Belle → 휋 c → 휋

Much wider, = 4277 MeV bigger errors, 4344 than in the naïve mass fit!

4411

JP=1+ 9.7 3.4 4475

Excellent agreement ! (“K* veto region”) 4605 4541 2nd Z- at lower mass? JP=0- Two Z- c2 p-value Argand diagram of MZ( ) 4239 18+45 MeV 0 10 =26% + G(Z )  220  47+108 MeV One Z- Zc(4430) is consistent 0 74 c2 p-value Z (4430) f 1.6 0.5+1.9 % =12% 1 with this structure being Z0 0.4 I +1.7 a resonance f 2.4 1.1 % Z0 Z0 0.2 6 significane (with systematics) JP=1+ also possible G=660±150 MeV T. Skwarnicki (Tue.) Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 32 0 J +K- in Belle B  /y p 5.1 Belle PR D90, 112009 (2014)

4D amplitude analysis + + Zc(4430) J/yp Negative interference

+ + or Zc(4200) J/yp

+ Zc(4200)

No meson molecule meson

+ -

Zc(3900) ! Tetraquark Belle 6.2

JP=1+ 4.4 meson Small fit fractions!

+ nd • The Zc(4430) observed in the 2 decay mode! • A broad but significant 2nd 1+ resonances + at the lower mass, Zc(4200) – Possibly the same structure as observed by the LHCb in B0y’p+K- (1+ was not

ruled out by LHCb)

og scale og l Kaon excitations T. Skwarnicki (Tue.) Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 33 Proliferation of near-threshold states: 5 Z +,0 states in bottomonium Mass p b MeV Masses near the BB*, B*B* thresholds ⋎ Z (10650) DMth=+3±2 MeV G b B*B* MeV ⋎ Zb(10610) BB* DM =+3±2 MeV BB th p p  (3S) Both JP(C)=1+(-) ⋎ Belle PRL 108, 122001 (2012) Charged and neutral p  (2S) G + p versions detected I =1 _ _ __ u b b d

+

M((nS)π )max

10,650 MeV 10,650 10,610 MeV 10,610 p  (1S) See Bondar’s talk

Large rate to fall-apart modes observed ⋎ • Likely molecular states of BB*, B*B* (very weakly bound or slightly virtual) Karliner’s talk • Tightly bound diquark tetraquarks advocated by Maiani and collaborators Maiani’s talk Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 34 More near-threshold states: • Expected from Z states and +,0 b many of Z charmonium states Heavy Quark Symmetry Y(4260) c 4200 p Masses a few MeV above the DD*, D*D* thresholds ⋎ P(C) +(-) Zc(4020) J =1 D*D* DM =+7±2 MeV (established only for Zc(3900)) ⋎ th G MeV Zc(3900) ⋎ DD* DMth=+11±3 MeV 3800 3 p 2 S1 DD 1 3 2 S0 1 P0,1,2 Large rate to fall-apart modes 11P 1 ⋎ 3400 Z (4020) c _ BES-III __ p _u c c d 3 Z (3900) Z (3900) Z (3900) 1 S1 c c c 1 3000 1 S0 Charged and neutral versions detected I G=1+

(also seen be Belle) See Lyu’s talk Molecular states of DD*, D*D* ? Karliner’s talk Diquark tetraquarks ? Maiani’s talk Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 35

Good discussion about Zb and corresponding Zc states ∗ ∗ Easy to understand if 푍푏(10650) is a 퐵 퐵 molecule, but not in a tetraquark model • Why the differences in decay pattern of Zb and Zc states? ∗ ∗ 푍푏(10610) → 퐵퐵 푍푏(10650) ↛ 퐵퐵 – Some of it can be misinterpretations of the data e.g.

Xiao-Rui Lyu

New Zc states?

∗ ∗ 푍푏(10650) → 퐵 퐵 y(2S)p+

Alex Bondar Mass, width not determined properly since did not allow for

Zc – NR bkg interference hinted by the Dalitz plot. This is likely + + 푍푐(4020) → 휓(2푆)휋 expected from 푍푏(10650) → Υ(2푆)휋

Alex Bondar Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 36 -- First observed by BaBar in 2005 Anomalous 1 states above open charm threshold BESIII PRL118, 092001 (2017) Belle PRL 110, 252002 (2013) Y(4260) y(2S) p+p “Y(4222)” Y(4360) ? 4222 ± 3 MeV Famous Y(4260) Y(4260) Γ = 44 ± 5 MeV 4320 ± 13 MeV J/y Γ = 101+ 27 MeV is now p+p − 22 logscale Y(4220)+Y(4320) J/y

BaBar PRD 86, 051102 (2012) Belle PRD 91, 112007 (2015) Y(4260) p+p Y(4360) Y(4660) 4346 ± 6 MeV 4643 ± 9 MeV p+p J/y Γ = 102 ± 10 MeV Γ = 72 ± 11 MeV

y(2S)

y(4020) y(4415) y(3770) y(4160) 4218 ± 5 MeV 4391 ± 6 MeV Y(4660) ?Belle PRL 101, 172001 Γ = 66 ± 10 MeV Γ = 139 ± 20 MeV (2008)

hadrons +  p p L + For much more c 3 h 3 S1 c L  13D 3 3 BESIII c 1 2 D1 4 S1 on this see PRL118, 092002 BESIII PL B660, 315 (2008) Z.Wang’s talk (2017) + 9 + 41 4634−11 MeV Γ = 92− 32 MeV Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 37 _ Anomalous behavior of 1-- states bb (5S) (6S) above open bottom threshold Roman Mizuk

+ – hb(1P) p p

However, (5S), (6S) + – (1S) p p  (1S,2S,3S) p+p– widths are 100 larger + – hb(2P) p p than (3S), (2S)  (1S) p+p– OZI-rule violation (2S) p+p– Also widths for (5S), (6S) + –  hb(1P), hb(2P) p p are comparable, but require PRL117,142001(2016) heavy quark spin flip PRD93,011101(2016) (3S) p+p– HQSS violation e+e–  (1S,2S,3S) p+p– and h (1P,2P) p+p– b Like in charmonium! proceed via (5S), (6S) Unlike in charmonium! Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 38 OZI  light d.o.f. Interpretation? Roman Mizuk _b  q compact hadronic hadro- q _ + – tetraquark admixture quarkonium b p p ______(bq)(bq) (bq)(bq) (bb)(qq) Bottomonium-like states open flavor decays dominate – V – transition to various bottomonia V V –

admixture + rescattering _  Enhanced if B(*)B(*) are on-shell Simonov JETP Lett 87,147(2008) Meng Chao PRD77,074003(2008) Molecules are not eigenstates_ of the total bb spin Z = BB* b _ IG (JP ) = 1+ (1+ ) Z  = B*B* b Zb Bondar, Garmash, Milstein, RM, Voloshin, PRD84,054010(2011) Decomposition 

Decays via Zb states explain HQSS violation hb(mP)p (nS)p Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 39 + Interpretations of Zc states observed in B decays

GD(2600)=104±20 MeV G =181±31 MeV D 1 D*(2600) Z(4430) 1 S 3 + + 0 2 S1 Zc(4430) 1 Radial excitation (no neutral partner Radial excitation of the 3S meson 1 has been observed yet) of tightly bound inside meson +100 tetraquark _ _ molecule GZ(4200)=370−150 MeV + d c 1 3 Zc(4200) + _ D 1 S0 D* 1 S1 1 (needs confirmation) u c _ __ _ u c c d GZ(3900)= 28± 3 MeV L. Ma et al PRD 90, 037502 (2014) Z (3900)+ L. Maiani et al PR D89, 114010 (2014) c + T. Barnes et al, PRD 91, 014004 (2015) 1 [cu]S=1 [cd]S=0 - [cu]S=0 [cd]S=1

+ Absence of Zc(3900) in B decays makes it + questionable to pair it up with Zc(4430) _

+ + No molecular thresholds can explain Zc(4200) While it has been suggested Zc(4200) is a tetraquark, no + tetraquark model can accommodate it together with Zc(4430) C.Deng et al PR D92, 034027 (2015)

+ Zc(4200) needs confirmation! T. Skwarnicki (Tue.) Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki X(4140) first observed by CDF - - 6D amplitude analysis PRL 102, 242002 (2009) B J/y fK 40 Not enough data to test LHCb X(4700)J/yf  resonant amplitudes on PRL 118, 022003 5.6 Argand diagrams.

(2017) molecules

X(4500)J/yf 

6.1 See T.S. (Tue.)

DsDs

 or or

X(4274)J/yf 6.0 _ _

X(4140)J/yf  s c 8.4

S c Tetraquarks

X(4140) was previously observed by CDF,CMS,D0. Hints of X(4274) in CDF data. Postdiction by L.Maiani, No h-exchange X(4700) _ 0++ A.D.Polosa, V. Riquer +69±26 MeV PRD94, 054026 (2016) u + - Ds0 Ds0* Possibly radially excited s 0++ tetraquarks. However,

X(4500) only one 1++ state with PC __ _ 0++ color triplet diquarks. _s c c s

but no no but F. Stancu, J.Phys. G37, numbers

thresholds, X(4274) ++ 075017 (2010) matching J matching No p-exchange Plenty of other of Plenty 1 ++ forces! Predicted two 1 X(4140) tetraquarks in this mass 1++ range (S=0,1 diquarks in + - +66±5 MeV Kaon excitations h-exchange OK Ds Ds* color triplet and sextet) Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 41 0 - PRL 115, 07201 (2015) L J/ypK 5D amplitude analysis _ +

b Pc(4450) or Γ = 39 ± 20 MeV +

Pc(4450) J/yp meson molecule meson

+ - Pc(4380) J/yp Γ = 205 ± 88 MeV Pentaquark 5± + No molecules Pc(4380)

2 baryon in this mass range ± See Liming Zhang’s talk Can accommodate 5 when at 2 Karliner,Rosner PRL115, 1− 3− , least one diquark in S=1 state 122001(2015) and others 2 2 No p-exchange Maiani et al PLB749, 289 (2015) + *0 ∓ and many others S D P (4450)+ 5 ∓ 1+ 3+ p cc1 c c 3 or Such mass difference , - 10±3 MeV 2 2 2 2 +1±3 MeV and the opposite parity + ∓ ∓ Pc(4380) 3 5 can be explained by DL=1 s d + or Pc(4380) is too + 2 2 u Sc broad to be a molecule u c JP “preferred” _ c d c _ rather than u c 0 definitely d u u D* L baryon excitations determined Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki

42 Misha Mikhasenko

Possibility of triangle anomalies should be explored via amplitude fits to the data which yielded XYZ,Pc states. Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 43 Doubly heavy systems tetraquark baryon d c b u c b LHCb PRL 111, 180001 (2017) u The lightest 1+ state

Marek Karliner

Karliner,Rosner arXiv:1707.07666 the same toolkit Stable tetraquark, will decay weakly

Karliner,Rosner PRD90,094007 (2014)

Consistent results predicted by See also Chen’s talk LQCD: on quadruple-heavy Francis,Hudspith,Lewis,Maltman tetraquarks PRL 1118,142001 (2017) Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 44 Summary I Old narrative (before 2003) New narrative

(from: arXiv:1708.04012)

Mesons are predominantly 푞푞ത bound states below the open flavor threshold. They Mesons are 푞푞ത bound states. are more complex structures above it, and we have not yet understood them. Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 45 _ _ Summary II __ _ u c _d c c u (Aug 23, Wednesday session) d c Luciano Sonja Marek Proliferation of threshold states is Maiani Kabana Karliner the main feature of this model Claim most (all?) of XYZ (supported also by lighter meson states are tetraquarks or spectroscopy). pentaquarks Narrow widths expected! Necessarily claim there are many more to be Cannot account for some observed discovered XYZ,Pc states. Leave room for other dynamics to play a role. Proliferation of threshold _ _ Everybody states requires mixing with b b agrees, the More threshold states expected, virtual hadron pairs d u lightest 1+ is but predictive power somewhat stable limited. No agreement on exact Predict prompt production dynamical model (only p- of all XYZ states at hadron Crucial difference. Lack of experimental reports on prompt exchange?). colliders production of most of XYZ,Pc states anecdotally favors molecular forces No prompt production, unless mix No width predictions so far (need experiments to publish limits!) with compact hadron. Summary of the Workshop on Exotic Hadrons, Kolymbari 2017, Tomasz Skwarnicki 46 Summary III • Need more data to settle the phenomenological disputes BES III See K.Zhu’s talk • More data are forthcoming! Upgraded LHCb

CMS

ATLAS CLAS12 PANDA and other…